Personal Injury Marketing Minute: Recent Episodes
OptimizeMyFirm.com
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute is a podcast dedicated to marketing personal injury law firms online. It is produced by OptimizeMyFirm.com.
In this episode of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, host Lindsey Busfield is joined by Ron Desi, founder of Growth Vids, to discuss the power of YouTube in marketing for personal injury law firms. Ron shares his insights on how law firms can effectively use YouTube to generate leads and build trust with potential clients. He explains the importance of creating content that answers frequently asked questions and addresses specific client concerns, emphasizing the need for empathy and personal connection in video marketing. The conversation also covers the impact of AI on search engines and how it influences content strategy. Ron provides practical advice on video production, including content creation, video length, and posting frequency, as well as tips for attorneys on getting comfortable in front of the camera. Listeners will gain valuable insights into enhancing their digital presence and attracting clients through strategic video marketing.
Key Timestamps:* 00:01 – Introduction * 00:12 – Lindsey introduces Ron Desi * 01:49 – Ron’s background and journey into video marketing * 03:29 – Benefits of using YouTube for personal injury law firms * 07:00 – Building trust through empathy in video content * 10:50 – The role of AI in content discovery and SEO * 15:17 – The importance of specific content for search visibility * 20:52 – Strategies for video content creation and posting frequency * 26:04 – Deciding who should be on camera for your videos * 31:16 – Optimizing YouTube videos for better ranking * 36:03 – Creating unique content that stands out * 40:31 – The value of specific, targeted video content * 45:23 – Tips for attorneys to get comfortable on camera * 47:27 – Ron shares resources for getting started with video topics
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
What Is Your Background And How Did You Get Into Using YouTube For Business?I began as a professional spokesperson, creating videos for businesses that needed an on-camera presence but didn’t want to do it themselves. I realized the power of YouTube when I started answering frequently asked questions for an MBA program I was directing. This led to the creation of a YouTube channel, which eventually turned into a business. Now, I focus on helping clients, especially in the legal field, leverage YouTube to answer common questions and build their brand.
How Can Personal Injury Attorneys Benefit From Using YouTube?YouTube is a fantastic platform for personal injury attorneys to build trust and establish themselves as authorities. By creating videos that address common questions, lawyers can offer a personal touch that written content can’t match. Videos allow potential clients to see and hear the attorney, which helps in building a relationship and trust. This is crucial because people dealing with personal injury cases often have personal, emotional, and sensitive issues that they need help with.
What Are Some Key Benefits Of Creating Videos For Frequently Asked Questions?Creating videos for common questions streamlines communication with potential clients and saves time. Instead of repeatedly answering the same questions, attorneys can direct clients to their videos, providing a consistent and thoughtful response every time. This strategy not only makes the firm more efficient but also enhances their SEO, as people searching for answers will come across these videos, increasing the firm’s visibility and authority online.
Where Does YouTube Fit Into Modern Law Firm Marketing Strategies?YouTube acts as an extension of a law firm’s marketing funnel. At the top, videos reach people who are beginning their search for information. As potential clients move down the funnel, they find more detailed content that answers their specific questions and reassures them about the firm’s expertise. Testimonials and case studies at the bottom of the funnel help seal the deal by building trust and credibility.
How Does AI Influence The Importance Of Maintaining A YouTube Presence?AI is transforming how people search and find information online. While traditional search engines are still widely used, AI tools are starting to pull content directly from platforms like YouTube. Therefore, having a robust YouTube presence ensures that a law firm’s content is included in these AI-driven results. This enhances the firm’s visibility and authority, making it crucial to continue producing and optimizing video content.
What Is The Recommended Content Creation Strategy For Law Firms On YouTube?For personal injury law firms, it’s effective to create short, bite-sized videos that answer specific questions. These should be posted consistently, ideally daily, to build a comprehensive library of content. The goal is to dominate local search results by having a large repository of videos that address various client concerns, making it easy for potential clients to find and trust your firm.
Should Attorneys Appear On Camera Themselves Or Hire A Spokesperson?Ideally, attorneys or someone from their staff should appear on camera to personalize the content and build trust. However, if time or comfort with being on camera is an issue, hiring a spokesperson is a viable alternative. Consistency and quality are key, so it’s more important to ensure regular content updates than to have the attorney personally in every video.
How Can Attorneys Improve Their On-camera Presence?Attorneys should become comfortable with being slightly bigger versions of themselves on camera, using gestures and modulating their voice for clarity and engagement. Practicing on camera without the pressure of posting can help. Additionally, using a teleprompter for scripted content or chunking information into short, memorable pieces can improve delivery and ease.
How Can Law Firms Ensure Their YouTube Videos Reach The Right Audience?Optimizing video titles, descriptions, and tags with relevant keywords is crucial. Using tools to research and include popular search terms specific to the firm’s locale and practice area can improve searchability. Additionally, creating an SRT file for captions enhances accessibility and indexing by YouTube, further boosting visibility in search results.
How Should Law Firms Decide On The Specificity Of Video Content?Law firms should focus on creating specific, localized content that addresses distinct client issues. Broad topics may attract a wide but irrelevant audience, while specific topics, such as local laws or incidents, ensure that viewers are more likely to be potential clients looking for legal assistance in that area.
In this episode of Personal Injury Marketing Minute, host Lindsey Busfield is joined by Sarah Walton, a business strategist and coach, to explore the concept of high capacity women leaders and their impact on law firms. Sarah explains the physiological and psychological aspects that enable women to multitask effectively and discusses the importance of recognizing and harnessing this capacity without falling into the trap of high-functioning codependence. They delve into the significance of delegation in business, emphasizing how it can prevent burnout and enhance productivity. The conversation also covers practical strategies for law firm owners to implement healthy habits and mindset shifts that lead to sustainable business growth and personal fulfillment. Listeners will gain insights into improving their leadership skills, fostering a supportive work environment, and achieving a better work-life balance.
Key Timestamps: 00:01 –Introduction * 0:17 –Defining High Capacity Women Leaders * 1:26 –The Science Behind Multitasking * 2:18 – High Functioning Codependence Explained * 3:34 – The Double-Edged Sword of High Capacity * 5:56 – Reframing the A Game for Sustainability * 7:00 – Importance of Delegation in Law Firms * 9:02 – Delegating for Business Efficiency * 10:10 – Creating Jobs and Wealth Flow * 12:19 – Eliminating Business Lag * 14:18 – Leadership Through Delegation * 16:00 – Business Needs vs. Personal Preferences * 17:12 – Hiring the Right People * 19:47 – Implementing the 80% Rule * 22:05 – Mindset Shifts for Business Success * 24:03 – Starting the Day with a Slow Morning * 26:12* – Connecting with People for Business Growth
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
What Defines High-capacity Women Leaders In The Business World?High-capacity women leaders are individuals who can multitask effectively due to physiological traits, such as more connective tissue between the brain’s hemispheres, allowing them to handle multiple tasks simultaneously. This ability often leads them to function at high levels consistently. However, this capability can sometimes lead to high-functioning codependence, where they overextend themselves, neglecting self-care and delegation. Recognizing and managing this balance is crucial for sustainable success.
How Can Women Leaders Avoid Burnout While Maintaining High Performance?To avoid burnout, women leaders should recognize that while they are capable of multitasking, it is not necessary to function at high levels constantly. It’s essential to delegate tasks and set boundaries to prevent becoming overwhelmed. By acknowledging the need for support and avoiding the trap of trying to do everything themselves, leaders can manage their responsibilities more effectively and maintain a healthier work-life balance.
Why Is Delegation Important For Business Leaders, Particularly In Law Firms?Delegation is critical because it allows leaders to focus on the aspects of their business they are passionate about and excel in. By delegating tasks that are not their strengths, leaders can reduce inefficiencies and prevent burnout. This approach not only fosters a more dynamic and efficient workplace but also enables leaders to perform at their best, contributing to the overall success of the business.
How Can Law Firm Leaders Effectively Delegate Tasks?Law firm leaders can delegate effectively by understanding that they are not their business; the business is an entity on its own. Leaders should focus on what the business needs rather than personal preferences for task completion. By hiring people who excel in specific areas and allowing them to take ownership of their roles, leaders can ensure tasks are completed efficiently, freeing them to focus on critical areas of the firm.
What Should Leaders Consider When Hiring To Ensure Effective Delegation?When hiring, leaders should adopt the mantra “hire hard, manage easy.” It’s important to invest time in finding the right fit for the business and then provide comprehensive training and clear SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) to guide new hires. This ensures that tasks are completed to the desired standard without the leader having to micromanage, allowing the business to run smoothly and efficiently.
How Can Law Firm Owners Incorporate Mindset Shifts And Habits For Better Business Outcomes?Law firm owners can benefit from adopting mindset shifts such as the Pareto Principle, focusing on the most impactful tasks, and maintaining an 80% capacity to prevent burnout. They should also implement daily habits like starting their day with a slow morning routine, reflecting on personal and business priorities. These practices can enhance productivity, improve mental clarity, and lead to greater satisfaction and success in their professional lives.
What Practical Advice Can Law Firm Owners Implement To Improve Their Leadership And Business Operations?Law firm owners should remember that they matter and that their actions have significant impacts. By prioritizing self-care, setting clear goals, and maintaining connections with clients and colleagues, leaders can ensure they are operating at their best. Recognizing their value and the importance of their contributions can lead to better decision-making and a more fulfilling professional experience.
In this episode of Personal Injury Marketing Minute, host Lindsey Busfield sits down with Tim McKey, CEO of Vista Consulting, to explore the evolving landscape of personal injury law firms through the lens of Managed Service Organizations (MSOs). Tim explains the structure and benefits of MSOs, highlighting how they separate non-legal operations from law firm entities, allowing for external investment and operational efficiency. The discussion delves into the financial and strategic advantages MSOs offer, such as attracting private equity and enhancing business acumen within law firms. Tim also addresses concerns about the potential downsides of MSOs, drawing parallels to the medical industry while emphasizing the importance of maintaining high-quality legal services. This episode is essential for law firm owners looking to understand new growth opportunities and competitive dynamics in the legal sector.
Key Timestamps: 00:01 – Introduction * 00:12 – Meet Tim McKey of Vista Consulting * 01:00 – Understanding MSOs in Law Firms * 03:08 – Evolution of MSOs in Plaintiff Firms * 05:02 – Financial and Operational Benefits of MSOs * 07:43 – Private Equity Interest in Law Firms * 09:06 – Growth Opportunities Through MSOs * 11:00 – Addressing Concerns About MSOs * 13:00 – Aligning Goals Between Lawyers and Investors * 15:13 – Importance of Business Efficiency in Law Firms * 17:19 – Navigating Competition in the Legal Market * 19:22 – Awareness and Adaptation in Legal Practices * 20:00* – Exploring MSOs and Consulting Services
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
What Are Msos And How Do They Relate To Law Firms?An MSO, or Managed Service Organization, is a structure where all non-legal services within a law firm, such as paralegals, marketing, and leasing, are separated from the core legal entity and placed into a different entity. This structure allows the law firm to focus solely on legal practice while the MSO handles operational aspects. The MSO leases these services back to the law firm, which pays for these services, enabling the legal entity to remain compliant with bar association rules requiring lawyer ownership.
Are Msos A New Concept In The Plaintiff Law Firm Industry?Yes, MSOs are relatively new to plaintiff firms, having emerged quietly around four to five years ago. Initially, MSOs were owned by the same lawyers who owned the law firm. However, the modern MSO structure allows non-lawyers to invest and own parts of the organization, providing new opportunities for growth and investment in the law firm industry.
What Benefits Do Msos Offer Law Firms, Both Financially And Operationally?MSOs provide financial benefits by allowing law firms to monetize assets and receive investments from non-lawyers, such as through private equity. This structure offers liquidity and growth opportunities that were previously unavailable. Operationally, MSOs enable law firms to bring in managerial expertise and streamline processes, helping them to grow and operate more efficiently. Additionally, MSOs can incentivize key team members by offering them equity in the MSO entity.
What Concerns Exist About The Integration Of Msos In Law Firms?There are concerns that introducing MSOs might prioritize profits over client service, similar to what some believe happened in the medical industry when private equity entered that space. However, proponents argue that MSOs aim to enhance service quality and law firm operations without compromising legal standards. The goal is to align the objectives of lawyers, investors, and team members to ensure better outcomes for clients.
How Should Smaller Law Firms Respond To Increasing Competition From Mso-backed Firms?Smaller firms should focus on their strengths and identify their niche in the market. They need to be aware of the competitive landscape and find ways to differentiate themselves, whether through superior service, specialized practice areas, or maintaining strong client relationships. Awareness of market changes is crucial, but firms can thrive by emphasizing their unique value propositions.
How Can Interested Law Firms Learn More About Msos Or Legal Operations Consulting?Firms interested in exploring MSOs or seeking operations consulting can visit www.vistact.com for more information or contact Tim McKey directly at tmckey@vistact.com. These resources provide guidance and support for law firms looking to adapt to the evolving legal landscape.
In this episode of Personal Injury Marketing Minute, host Lindsey Busfield is joined by Gary Falkowitz, co-founder of Capture Now and a renowned expert in legal intake and conversion. They delve into the transformative role of AI in personal injury law firm operations, focusing on intake processes. Gary shares insights on how AI can address traditional intake challenges, enhance efficiency, and improve client conversion rates. They discuss the importance of speed and decision-making in client interactions, emphasizing AI’s role in reducing friction and maximizing profits. Gary also highlights the potential risks of traditional call centers and the advantages of AI in providing consistent, reliable client service. This episode is essential for law firms looking to modernize their operations and improve client acquisition through AI.
Key Timestamps: 00:01 – Introduction * 00:37 – AI in Personal Injury Firms * 01:55 – Traditional Intake Challenges * 04:56 – Efficiency as a Key Benefit * 07:17 – Decision-Making vs. Crisis Mode * 09:36 – AI’s Role in Client Interaction * 12:00 – The Evolving Role of Receptionists * 14:10 – Removing Friction with AI * 16:17 – Triage and Call Qualification * 20:16 – Human vs. AI Interaction * 25:13 – Providing Client Options * 31:04 – The Importance of Speed in Business * 34:09 – Low-Risk AI Integration * 37:01* – Risks of Traditional Call Centers
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
What Problems In Traditional Intake LED To The Integration Of AI?Traditional intake systems often lacked efficiency and speed, leading law firms to miss potential clients. Many firms relied heavily on human resources, which were not always fast or decisive enough, resulting in lost opportunities. AI integration addresses these gaps by offering faster, more reliable, and consistent intake processes that minimize human errors and inefficiencies, ultimately maximizing profits and ensuring valuable cases are not overlooked.
How Does AI Improve The Decision-making Process For Potential Clients?AI enhances the decision-making process by providing immediate responses and reducing friction points such as long wait times and indecisive human interactions. When potential clients are in decision mode, they seek quick and efficient reassurance that they are making the right choice. AI tools offer this speed and accuracy, allowing clients to feel confident in their decisions without unnecessary delays.
Why Is Triage Important For Law Firms Using AI In Their Intake Process?Triage is crucial because it allows AI to determine the nature of calls and direct them appropriately, saving time and resources. By filtering out non-urgent or irrelevant calls, AI ensures that intake specialists only focus on potential clients who need immediate assistance. This not only streamlines operations but also enhances the client experience by reducing unnecessary interactions and focusing on valuable cases.
What Role Does AI Play In Managing Existing Client Inquiries?AI can seamlessly handle existing client inquiries by integrating with a firm’s CRM to provide instant case updates and information. This eliminates the need for clients to wait for a human response and ensures they receive timely and accurate information. By removing friction points and enhancing communication, AI improves client satisfaction and retention.
How Can Law Firms Begin Integrating AI Into Their Intake Process?Law firms can start by using AI during nights, weekends, and overflow periods, replacing or supplementing traditional call centers with AI solutions like CaptureNow. This initial step allows firms to experience the benefits of AI without fully committing resources, providing an opportunity to evaluate its effectiveness. Triage systems can then be implemented to further streamline intake processes by directing calls to the appropriate personnel based on urgency and relevance.
What Are The Potential Risks And Benefits Of Using AI For Legal Intake?The potential risks include initial hesitance from clients preferring human interaction and the possibility of AI mishandling complex cases. However, the benefits far outweigh these risks, as AI offers consistent speed, reduces human error, and provides 24/7 availability. AI also allows intake specialists to focus on high-value cases, improving job satisfaction and firm profitability. Firms can mitigate risks by offering clients the option to speak with a human when necessary, ensuring a balance between technology and personal touch.
In this episode of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, host Lindsey Busfield is joined by Riz Ali, founder of Riz Injury Law in Chicago. Riz shares his journey of establishing a personal injury firm in one of the most competitive legal markets. He discusses the importance of networking, mentorship, and building relationships with larger firms to gain referrals. Riz emphasizes the value of nurturing client relationships and leveraging community connections, particularly within cultural niches, to grow his practice. He also shares insights on effective marketing strategies such as attending community events and using social media to build a strong presence. This episode offers valuable advice for attorneys looking to thrive in saturated markets by focusing on relationship-building and targeted marketing.
Key Timestamps:* 00:01 – Introduction * 00:12 – Lindsey Busfield introduces Riz Ali * 01:40 – Riz’s decision to start his practice in Chicago * 02:41 – Importance of building relationships in law * 03:55 – Networking strategies for new attorneys * 04:56 – Leveraging referrals from larger firms * 06:01 – Building a reputation through client advocacy * 07:02 – Challenges and persistence in networking * 09:03 – Advantages of being a smaller firm * 10:19 – Personalized client interactions * 11:15 – Evaluating saturated markets for law firms * 12:28 – Setting goals and working backwards * 13:49 – Effective marketing strategies for small firms * 14:57 – Community-based marketing initiatives * 16:07 – Importance of micro-targeting in marketing * 18:44 – Cultural connections in client relationships * 20:58 – Building a reputation through relationships
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Why Did You Choose To Start Your Law Firm In Chicago?Chicago became my choice for law school due to its proximity to family, despite my initial plans to study in LA for a career in entertainment law. I attended DePaul Law School, which was close to a business I started before law school. The connections I made during my time at DePaul, combined with obtaining my license in Illinois, made it a natural decision to stay and start my practice here.
How Did Networking Contribute To The Foundation Of Your Firm?Networking was crucial, especially since I was new to Chicago. I had a great mentor, Mr. Cordell from Cordell and Cordell, who advised me to meet people and build professional relationships. The guidance I received from networking with classmates and other legal professionals provided invaluable insights and support when starting my firm.
What Strategies Helped You Get Clients In Such A Competitive Market?A key strategy was connecting with larger firms that might refer cases they didn’t want. By attending numerous bar events, I made sure attorneys knew I was available for referrals. Accepting smaller cases helped build relationships with both the referring attorneys and clients, turning them into advocates who spread the word about my services.
What Are The Advantages Of Being A Smaller Firm In A Big Market?As a smaller firm, I have the time to work closely on each case, offering a level of personal attention that larger firms may not. Meeting clients personally helps build trust and rapport. This personalized approach not only aids in client satisfaction but also enhances my professional reputation and fosters long-term relationships.
What Advice Would You Give To An Attorney Considering Entering A Saturated Market?Begin with your goals in mind and reverse engineer your strategy to achieve them. Every market is competitive, but focusing on what you want to achieve and what you are willing to sacrifice to get there can help overcome challenges. It’s about aligning your actions with your end goals and consistently working towards them.
Which Marketing Strategies Have Been Effective For Your Firm In Chicago?Participating in cultural events within the Pakistani and Indian communities has been effective. Setting up booths and engaging with people directly helps build relationships and trust. Social media content also plays a key role in maintaining visibility and connection with potential clients. Collecting emails at events has allowed me to maintain contact with potential leads through targeted newsletters.
Do Cultural Commonalities Enhance Client Trust And Relationships?Yes, speaking the same language and sharing cultural experiences naturally fosters trust. Being present at community events and offering free advice builds goodwill. People appreciate direct interaction and knowing they have a lawyer who understands their background and concerns, which can make a significant difference when they need legal assistance.
What Last Piece Of Advice Would You Offer To Attorneys In Saturated Markets?Focus on two or three marketing strategies and commit to them. Building personal relationships and maintaining an abundant mindset is crucial. Be present, offer genuine help, and nurture connections. This approach not only benefits your practice but also enriches your personal satisfaction and professional growth.
In this episode of Personal Injury Marketing Minute, host Lindsey Busfield is joined by Jacob Adberstein, co-founder and CEO of Reflekt Legal, to discuss the evolving role of AI in legal intake processes for personal injury law firms. Jacob shares insights from his engineering background and explains how AI can enhance client interactions by handling phone calls, text messages, and emails with a human-like touch. The conversation covers the challenges and advancements in AI technology, emphasizing the importance of empathy and competence in AI systems. Jacob also provides practical advice on evaluating AI solutions, highlighting the need for live demonstrations to ensure reliability. This episode is essential for law firms considering AI to improve their intake processes and client relationships.
Key Timestamps:* 00:01 – Introduction * 00:17 – AI’s Role in Legal Intake * 02:35 – Challenges in AI Adoption * 04:09 – Importance of Intake in Legal Operations * 06:07 – How AI Handles Client Interactions * 09:20 – AI Competence and Empathy * 12:01 – Improving AI Systems * 14:17 – Comparing AI and Human Intake * 18:23 – AI’s Impact on Multilingual Support * 21:06 – Evaluating AI Solutions for Law Firms * 25:07 – Testing AI Capabilities * 27:31 – Contacting Reflekt Legal for a Demo
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
What Does AI Intake Look Like In A Legal Practice Today?AI intake involves using artificial intelligence to handle initial client interactions, such as phone calls, emails, and text messages, in a legal practice. This technology can identify if a caller is a new client, existing client, or third party, and handle the interaction accordingly. For new leads, AI can conduct the initial intake process, ask qualifying questions, and listen to the client’s story. For existing clients, it can provide updates or route them to the appropriate person. The goal is to integrate AI as an extension of the law firm, ensuring it feels like part of the team.
How Does AI Manage Empathy In Client Interactions?AI manages empathy by using advanced conversational models that understand and respond to the nuances of human emotion. While AI might not perfectly replicate human empathy, it can recognize when a caller is in distress and respond with appropriate language and tone. The technology focuses on making the client feel heard and understood, which is crucial when dealing with sensitive issues like personal injury cases. The AI is designed to act competently, ensuring clients receive the help they need promptly and empathetically.
What Improvements Have Been Made In AI Technology For Legal Intake?Recent advancements in AI technology for legal intake include improvements in language processing and voice recognition, allowing for faster, more accurate, and cost-effective data processing. AI can now handle complex conversations more effectively, and voice models have improved significantly to sound more natural and human-like. These enhancements make it increasingly difficult for clients to distinguish between AI and a human, improving the overall client experience.
How Should Law Firms Evaluate AI Solutions For Their Intake Processes?When evaluating AI solutions for legal intake, law firms should conduct hands-on testing rather than relying on pre-recorded demos. Firms should be able to call a provided phone number to experience the AI’s capabilities directly, assessing how it handles various scenarios, including unexpected or complex inquiries. Testing should include throwing curveballs at the AI to see how it manages and resolves them. This real-world testing is crucial for determining the AI’s competence and effectiveness in handling intake efficiently and empathetically.
How Can Law Firms Get In Touch With Reflect Legal For AI Intake Solutions?Law firms interested in Reflect Legal’s AI intake solutions can visit their website at reflectlegal.ai to schedule a meeting directly with the founders. The meeting will provide a personalized demo tailored to the firm’s specific needs and case types. Alternatively, firms can connect with Reflect Legal on LinkedIn to learn more about their offerings and how AI can enhance their intake processes.
In this episode of Personal Injury Marketing Minute, host Lindsey Busfield talks with Bill Biggs, president and co-founder of Fireproof Masterminds, about the evolving landscape of law firm leadership and culture. They discuss the importance of agility and adaptability in today’s rapidly changing legal environment, driven by technological advancements such as AI. Bill emphasizes the role of coaching in reducing anxiety and fostering a positive culture that values client care and team trust. The conversation also explores how law firms can strategically adopt new technologies without disrupting their operations. Listeners will gain insights into building a strong corporate culture that aligns with their firm’s values and enhances team performance.
Key Timestamps:* 00:01 – Introduction * 00:12 – Meet Bill Biggs of Fireproof Masterminds * 01:06 – Changes in Law Firm Leadership Over the Years * 02:03 – The Impact of AI on Legal Operations * 03:28 – Coaching’s Role in Technological Advancement * 04:48 – Measuring and Enhancing Law Firm Culture * 06:28 – Addressing Team Anxiety About Technology * 08:44 – Adopting New Technology: Risks and Rewards * 11:09 – Defining and Developing Corporate Culture * 14:18 – The Importance of Purpose in Law Firms * 17:03 – Building Trust and Speed in Teams * 20:24 – Selecting the Right Team Members * 22:47 – Overview of Fireproof Masterminds * 25:31 – The Value of Data-Driven Mastermind Groups * 27:52 – Final Advice on Law Firm Leadership
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
What Has Changed In Leading And Coaching Legal Teams Compared To Five Or Ten Years Ago?The most significant change in leading and coaching legal teams today is the need for agility and adaptability. With the rapid rise of technology, particularly AI, leaders and teams must pivot quickly to keep up with new systems and processes. This adaptability is crucial for success in the current legal environment and other industries. The ability to change and adopt new technologies is no longer optional but necessary to remain competitive.
How Do Coaching And Culture Contribute To Handling Technological Advancements In Law Firms?Coaching and culture play pivotal roles in helping teams navigate technological changes. A strong culture is based on shared beliefs about clients, team members, and the firm’s purpose. In today’s fast-paced environment, a great culture also includes an understanding that change is part of the process. Coaching helps lower anxiety about change, builds trust among team members, and keeps the focus on client care. By reducing anxiety and providing the right tools, teams can be more responsive and adaptable to new technologies.
How Can Law Firms Manage Anxiety Related To Technological Changes And Competition?To manage anxiety related to technological changes, law firms should focus on reducing fear through effective coaching. This involves helping team members understand how to work with new technologies and reassuring them about their roles. Additionally, identifying the right products and software that align with the firm’s goals can alleviate anxiety. Firms should avoid being pressured into adopting new technologies too quickly and instead follow a deliberate approach to technology adoption that aligns with their risk appetite, firm size, and culture.
What Is The Importance Of A Defined Corporate Culture In A Law Firm?A defined corporate culture is crucial for a law firm’s success, as it reflects the firm’s values and purpose. Every firm has a culture, but a strong culture is intentional and strategically designed. It is built on what the leadership believes about clients, team members, and the firm’s purpose. By assembling a leadership team that exemplifies these values, a firm can create a culture that supports its goals. This deliberate approach to culture helps ensure that the firm’s operations and decisions align with its core purpose and values.
How Can Defining A Law Firm’s Purpose Improve Its Operations?Defining a law firm’s purpose provides clarity and direction, streamlining decision-making and operations. When a firm clearly understands why it exists, it can align its systems, processes, and strategies with that purpose. This alignment increases efficiency and consistency, as team members know what is expected and how their work contributes to the firm’s goals. Additionally, a strong purpose builds trust among team members, reducing hesitation and fostering a faster, more cohesive work environment.
What Role Does Fireproof Masterminds Play In Improving Law Firm Leadership And Operations?Fireproof Masterminds brings law firm owners and leaders together in a data-driven environment to share insights and improve operations. By grouping firms based on revenue and market exclusivity, participants can learn from peers facing similar challenges. The program requires sharing financials and key performance indicators, fostering a culture of accountability and growth. This collaborative approach helps firms make informed decisions, avoid costly mistakes, and accelerate growth through shared experiences and practical advice.
What Is The Key Piece Of Advice For Improving Law Firm Leadership Or Corporate Culture?The key piece of advice for improving law firm leadership or corporate culture is to run your law firm like a business. This means organizing the firm with intentionality, strategy, and values, focusing on data-driven decision-making and scalability. By approaching the law firm as a business, leaders can create an environment that supports growth, efficiency, and long-term success. This business mindset complements legal expertise and helps law firms achieve their desired outcomes.
In this episode of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, host Lindsey Busfield, Vice President and Partner at Optimize My Firm, delves into the evolving landscape of AI in the legal industry, focusing on its impact on SEO and marketing. Joined by Evan, Lindsey discusses how AI is not killing SEO but rather complementing it by requiring a broader digital footprint and content diversification. They explore the various applications of AI in law firms, from case management to marketing strategies, and address common misconceptions about AI’s role in SEO. Lindsey emphasizes the importance of quality content and backlinks, while cautioning against over-reliance on AI-generated content due to potential inaccuracies. The discussion provides actionable insights for law firms looking to leverage AI effectively, ensuring they remain competitive without falling into marketing traps.
Key Timestamps:* 00:01 – Introduction * 00:10 – AI’s Impact on SEO * 01:06 – Establishing Authority Online * 02:02 – AI in Law Firms: Current Uses * 03:03 – Zero Click Information and Its Implications * 04:00 – Misunderstandings About AI and SEO * 05:14 – AI’s Effect on Content Ranking * 06:02 – Importance of Quality Content * 07:03 – AI as a Marketing Advantage * 08:29 – Risks of Over-Reliance on AI * 09:39 – Balancing AI and Human Input * 11:15 – Practical Steps for Using AI * 12:19 – AI in Content Development and Operations
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
What Meaningful Changes Has AI Brought To SEO In The Past Year?AI has significantly influenced SEO by emphasizing the importance of establishing authority and creating quality content. While some fear AI might make SEO obsolete, it’s actually enhancing it. Optimizing for AI means building a strong online presence through content, citation backlinks, and a robust digital footprint. This helps AI platforms and Google determine your credibility and relevance, ultimately improving SEO performance.
How Are Law Firms Currently Using AI, And Where Does It Fall Short?Law firms are incorporating AI in multiple areas, including SEO, operations, and case management. AI has streamlined processes, improved communications, and assisted in managing legal cases. However, many lawyers are unsure how to fully leverage AI, particularly in marketing. AI tools like chatbots provide quick answers to legal questions, reducing website traffic, but these interactions rarely result in lost clients, as they often involve non-transactional users.
What Are The Common Misconceptions About AI’s Role In SEO?A major misconception is that AI is replacing SEO when, in reality, it’s a subset of it. AI optimization involves expanding your digital footprint through content creation on various platforms, like LinkedIn and YouTube. While AI and traditional SEO seem different, they’re interconnected. If you’ve been practicing effective SEO for years, there’s no need for drastic changes—just an expansion of content reach.
How Has Ai-generated Content Impacted Search Rankings?AI-generated content affects rankings based on a law firm’s digital footprint. Firms that rely solely on their own website content and backlinks might struggle with ranking in AI-driven searches. Expanding content across multiple platforms enhances visibility in both organic and AI search results, improving overall SEO performance.
What Remains Crucial For SEO Despite AI Advancements?Content creation remains essential for SEO success. Google and other AI platforms prioritize connecting users with accurate and relevant information. Creating high-quality, relevant content, supported by citation backlinks, boosts credibility and search rankings. This approach has always been vital for SEO and is now even more critical in the age of AI.
How Can AI Give Law Firms A Competitive Edge?AI can provide an advantage by featuring firms in search result snippets, offering free exposure. Being cited as a source in AI responses can drive referral traffic to your site, potentially converting visitors into clients. Although AI-driven referral traffic is minimal, it often results in high conversion rates, making it a valuable addition to a firm’s marketing strategy.
Where Do Firms Make Mistakes By Overly Relying On AI?Firms often panic and overreact to AI trends, falling for marketing companies that push unnecessary AI optimization services. If a firm’s SEO strategy is already effective, drastic changes aren’t needed. The real danger lies in scams that promise AI-driven success, leading to wasted resources and energy.
How Should Firms Balance Automation With Human Input In Their Content Strategy?Currently, using AI-generated content on legal websites is risky due to potential inaccuracies and future penalties. Human oversight is crucial to ensure content accuracy and reliability, as AI can sometimes produce misleading information. Firms should avoid relying solely on AI for content and instead use it for idea generation and operational efficiency.
What Practical Steps Should Firms Take To Start Using AI Effectively?Firms can use AI to generate ideas for content creation, such as video topics or scripts, while ensuring content is tailored to their audience. AI can also assist in automating internal processes and generating marketing materials like images and video thumbnails. While AI offers numerous practical applications, firms should use it to enhance marketing efforts rather than replace human-generated content.
In this episode of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, Lindsey Busfield, vice-president and partner at Optimize My Firm, joins Evan Mack to discuss the critical differences between website traffic and actual case acquisition for law firms. They delve into the common misconceptions attorneys have about traffic metrics and how these numbers often fail to translate into signed cases. Lindsey explains why understanding the intent behind website visits is crucial and how content quality can significantly impact a firm’s ability to convert traffic into clients. The conversation also covers the importance of focusing on relevant, transactional pages and the role of AI in shaping informational searches. Listeners will gain insights into aligning their marketing strategies with the types of cases they desire, ultimately enhancing their firm’s growth and client acquisition.
Key Timestamps:* 00:01 – Introduction * 00:18 – Traffic vs. Cases: What Matters * 01:44 – Misleading Marketing Metrics * 03:56 – Analyzing Traffic Sources * 04:58 – Intent Behind Traffic * 06:08 – Role of AI in Informational Searches * 07:08 – Importance of Quality Content * 08:15 – Common Website Issues * 09:12 – Measuring Marketing Success * 10:20 – Shifting Focus from Traffic to Results * 11:15 – Aligning Marketing with Desired Cases
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
How Often Does Website Traffic Translate Into Signed Cases?Website traffic does not always directly translate into signed cases. While high traffic numbers can seem impressive as a key performance indicator, they don’t necessarily mean more cases. Often, traffic may come from pages with general information that attract visitors seeking answers rather than legal services. For instance, a page about sinkholes may generate interest but not lead to personal injury cases. Therefore, it’s crucial to distinguish between general traffic and visits to transactional pages that are more likely to convert into clients.
What Marketing Metrics Mislead Law Firms About Business Growth?Metrics like website traffic and keyword rankings can be misleading if not analyzed correctly. High traffic or an increase in keyword rankings from page seven to page four doesn’t guarantee more business. These numbers can create a false sense of success if they don’t target relevant pages that lead to client conversions. Firms should focus on metrics that track traffic to essential pages like contact and case-type pages to ensure meaningful growth.
Where Should Firms Look First If High Traffic Doesn’t Lead To Growth?The first step is to examine which pages are driving traffic. If they aren’t relevant to the firm’s services, the focus should shift to optimizing pages that convert visitors into clients. If the essential pages are getting traffic but not converting, the page design and flow should be assessed to ensure they facilitate lead conversion. Additionally, if leads are coming in but not converting to cases, it may be necessary to evaluate the intake team’s effectiveness in closing leads.
How Does Intent Behind Traffic Influence Hiring Decisions?Traffic intent is crucial in distinguishing between casual browsers and potential clients. Information seekers look for answers to questions like filing claims or legal limitations, while those ready to hire search for the best attorney in their area. AI’s role in providing quick answers has reduced traffic for purely informational searches, emphasizing the need for robust content that caters to both information seekers and those ready to engage legal services.
What Role Does Content Play In Attracting The Right Cases?Content is pivotal for SEO and establishing a law firm’s presence on Google. It must be detailed and tailored to answer questions potential clients have, formatted in a way that Google recognizes as authoritative. With AI affecting search dynamics, high-quality, unique, and well-structured content becomes even more crucial to stand out and attract visitors ready to take legal action.
What Common Issues On Law Firm Websites Hurt Conversions Despite Strong Traffic?Issues like thin content that lacks depth or fails to answer prospective clients’ questions can hinder conversions. Law firms need content that not only informs but also empathizes with clients’ pain points and concerns. Poorly structured information that doesn’t address clients’ needs can result in missed opportunities, even with high traffic volumes.
How Can Firms Measure The Effectiveness Of Their Marketing Beyond Traffic Numbers?A critical measure of marketing success is whether the phone is ringing with relevant cases. Firms should focus on the performance of key pages, ensuring they rank well and receive the expected traffic. The ultimate goal is to be easily found by prospective clients searching for legal services, ensuring that the firm is chosen over competitors.
What Shift Should Firms Make If They Want Better Results Than Just Traffic Numbers?Firms need to understand the origin and destination of their traffic to diagnose any issues. A decline in traffic might stem from AI capturing informational searches, requiring a focus on transactional pages. Developing a content strategy that addresses these changes can help attract more relevant visitors who are likely to convert into clients.
How Should Firms Align Their Marketing With The Types Of Cases They Want?To grow strategically, firms should create content that reflects the cases they aim to attract. This includes detailed, localized content around high-value cases like car and truck accidents, wrongful deaths, and severe injury cases. By focusing on these areas, firms can attract the cases that align with their business goals.
In this episode of Personal Injury Marketing Minute, host Lindsey Busfield is joined by Joy Avila and David Chamberlin from James Scott Farron to discuss the intricacies of branding within a well-established law firm. They delve into how James Scott Farron has successfully developed verticals such as eminent domain and whistleblower law, separate from their main personal injury brand, to avoid brand confusion and better target specific client demographics. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding market saturation, audience-specific messaging, and the challenges of building domain authority. They also touch on the unique considerations when marketing software solutions to other law firms. This episode is essential for law firms considering expansion into new practice areas, offering insights into strategic brand development and the importance of aligning messaging with client needs.
Key Timestamps:* 00:01 – Introduction * 01:25 – Overview of James Scott Farron * 02:40 – Developing Law Firm Verticals * 03:59 – Branding Decisions for New Practice Areas * 05:01 – SEO Considerations in Branding * 06:14 – Identifying Target Markets * 07:48 – Tailoring Messaging to Client Situations * 09:28 – Differentiating Personal Injury Messaging * 10:39 – Branding for Law Firm Software * 12:01 – Whistleblower Vertical Branding * 13:31 – Messaging Adjustments for Client Comfort * 15:19 – Advice for Expanding Practice Areas * 16:49 – Testing Market Viability * 17:52 – Unique Selling Proposition in Branding
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
What makes James Scott Farron a leader in the personal injury law firm industry?James Scott Farron is a prominent personal injury law firm with a significant presence in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia. Established in 1997, the firm prides itself on being a market leader and trendsetter in the legal field. With nearly 300 staff members, they handle a wide range of personal injury cases, striving for excellence through their experienced team and innovative approaches.
Why did James Scott Farron choose to develop separate brands for specific practice areas?The decision to create separate brands for specific practice areas, such as eminent domain or whistleblower law, is driven by the need to reach distinct audiences. For instance, eminent domain requires specialized knowledge and targets a different clientele than personal injury law. By hiring experts with experience in these fields, the firm ensures they cater to the specific needs of each practice area without causing brand confusion.
How do you approach branding for new verticals within an existing law firm?When developing a brand for a new vertical, the firm considers whether the brand can effectively rank online and reach its intended audience. For example, eminent domain projects offer clear opportunities for targeted marketing due to the availability of detailed project information. This allows for easier identification and outreach to potential clients, ensuring that the brand effectively addresses their unique needs.
What factors influence the decision to keep a practice area under the main brand or develop it separately?The choice between keeping a practice area under the main brand or developing it separately depends on the audience and the ease of establishing a new brand. If the practice area aligns well with the existing brand and audience, it may remain under the main brand. However, if the audience is distinct and requires specialized messaging, a separate brand is more appropriate to avoid internal competition and confusion.
How does targeting specific demographics impact branding strategies for law firm verticals?Branding strategies are tailored to the specific situations of the clients rather than traditional demographics. For instance, in eminent domain cases, the firm targets individuals based on the specific impact on their property, providing information relevant to their situation. Similarly, in personal injury cases, marketing materials are customized to address the unique concerns and recovery processes of different accident types.
What are the key considerations when developing a B2B software brand for a law firm?Developing a B2B software brand requires a different marketing approach than consumer-focused services. The firm highlights the importance of understanding the unique needs of law firms and ensuring the software addresses those needs. Building a software product involves significant technical challenges, especially regarding data security, and requires a clear understanding of the target market and competitive landscape.
How does the firm address the emotional needs of clients in specialized practice areas like whistleblower law?In specialized practice areas like whistleblower law, the firm tailors its messaging to address the emotional and procedural concerns of clients. Whistleblower clients often face significant personal and professional risks, so the firm emphasizes confidentiality, support, and guidance throughout the process. This distinct approach helps build trust and reassurance for clients in sensitive situations.
What advice do you have for law firms considering the expansion into new practice areas or verticals?Law firms should assess market saturation and competition before launching a new brand. Building a brand is a long-term commitment that requires consistent effort and investment. Testing the market and audience interest before fully committing to brand development is crucial. Additionally, different marketing channels may be necessary for various practice areas, and firms should prioritize areas where they can easily identify their potential audience.
What is the importance of identifying a unique selling proposition in branding?A unique selling proposition (USP) is vital for defining a brand’s messaging and positioning in the market. It involves identifying what sets the brand apart from competitors and aligns with what clients want. By focusing on this intersection, firms can effectively communicate their value and attract the right audience. Understanding the USP helps guide branding strategies and ensures the brand resonates with potential clients.
When it comes to settlement strategy, some law firms (and clients) prefer to get as much as they can as quickly as they can – maybe leaving money on the table for the sake of time. Other law firms would rather hold out for larger figures, especially on the bigger cases.
GGL law is a litigation-focused PI firm that takes a unique approach. They set a value to every case that comes through the door…and they hold to it. From day one, they prepare to litigate and fight for the maximum value. This ensures that they are doing right by their clients and increasing revenue for the firm, all while building their reputation in their community.
In this episode, we cover:
- How internal expectations are set – and consequences when expectations aren’t met.
- Setting and fighting for the maximum value for cases.
- Reinvesting in employees to avoid burnout.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
https://youtu.be/L-0hO6Gt9i8
So many entrepreneurs get stuck in the mindset that profit is what is leftover from business expenses. But this tends to leave business owners as the last ones getting paid – even though they are the ones accepting all of the risk and responsibility. However, there are long-term ramifications of this mindset. When lawyers are paying themselves last, they risk damaging their emotional health, home relationships, and general wellbeing. As personal financial stress piles up, they are less likely to serve their clients or business well, damaging the long term sustainability of their practices.
Ben Hockema joins today to discuss:
- The risks of lawyers paying themselves last
- How to implement the “Profit First” business model
- How to balance paying yourself while still fueling your business
Visit Ben online here: https://www.illuminatewm.com/.
Buy “Profit First” by Mike Michalowicz here: https://amzn.to/46XmQ3Y.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
In this episode of Personal Injury Marketing Minute, we explore the motivations and ethical considerations behind personal injury law – getting at the heart of why many lawyers enter this legal sector.
Ryan Perdue and Joel Simon, both former defense attorneys for oil companies, share their journey from defending corporations to representing injured contractors. Inspired by their firsthand experiences with the vulnerabilities faced by oil industry workers, they discuss:
- Transitioning from defense work to plaintiff advocacy
- Systemic changes needed for better worker protection
- Battling potential conflict of interest issues when working opposite former employers
- The challenges of practicing across multiple states with different personal injury laws
Visit Simon Perdue Law online here: https://www.simonperduelaw.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
This episode of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute highlights a critical issue faced by personal injury clients: managing immediate financial burdens while awaiting settlement payouts. Traditional funding options, such as personal loans and settlement advancement loans, often prove inaccessible or predatory, adding stress to an already difficult situation. In response to this challenge, the Milestone Foundation has emerged as a nonprofit alternative, providing pre-settlement funding that aims to protect clients from exploitative practices.
Rachel McCarthy from the Milestone Foundation joins us to share the organization’s innovative model and its mission to address the financial inequities within the legal system. She explains the foundation’s non-recourse settlement advancement model, which sets it apart from traditional funding methods, and its low, simple interest structure designed to offer clients a fair and transparent solution during their time of need.
Visit The Milestone Foundation online here: https://themilestonefoundation.org/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
https://youtu.be/kpS4dNg3XfY
Transcript:Welcome to the personal injury marketing minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world.
One of the biggest challenges that clients face after a personal injury accident is how do I pay the bills that I have right now with a good personal injury lawyer?
They know the settlement is coming and it will cover things on the backend, but what about today? There are options for personal loans, but it can be tough to qualify.
Then there are settlement advancement loans, but those can be insanely predatory and will eat away a client settlement. Fortunately, a nonprofit settlement funding foundation is now providing an alternative for settlement advancement.
Rachel McCarthy: from the milestone foundation joins us today to discuss the foundation’s groundbreaking mission, the inspiration behind its creation.
and the critical need for a non-profit alternative to traditional funding methods. Thank you so much for joining us today, Rachel.
Rachel McCarthy:
Thanks, Lindsey. I’m happy to be here.
Lindsey:
Well, could you give us a brief overview of the Milestone Foundation and its mission?
Rachel McCarthy:
Absolutely. So the Milestone Foundation is a 501c3 non-profit organization, and we exist to help plaintiffs who are having trouble covering their basic living expenses while they are pursuing justice.
So most of the families and individuals, we provide financial assistance to help them cover basic living expenses like housing or vehicle or utilities, groceries, while they are going through the duration of their personal injury lawsuit.
Lindsey:
Well, what inspired the creation of the Milestone Foundation as a non-profit pre-settlement funding option?
Rachel McCarthy:
So our founder, John Baer, was a settlement planner, and he… He would work with families who were going to be receiving a settlement, figuring out the financial plan for these folks once they have their settlement funds.
And he kept noticing that plaintiffs would owe a huge, a significant portion of their settlement to these for-profit lending companies.
And he thought there has to be an alternative for these folks, and there wasn’t. There was no alternative. So his wife, Amy, and him decided to start a non-profit model that would do pre-settlement funding, so advancing a small amount of funding on the settlement, and do it as a non-profit.
So not looking to make money, but just looking to help people bridge the gap and then grow the work that we do as much as we can.
Lindsey:
And that is huge. mean, A, to acknowledge that need, and then to do something about it, that speaks volumes about- about where they are in terms of wanting to actually help their clients.
As opposed to just profit from working the cases. And that is incredibly admirable. And I mean, there are other options out there, but they can be predatory or they can be difficult to qualify for.
And it leaves a bulk of the clients who are just trying to get by in a really bad financial situation on top of being in a difficult physical situation as a result of their injury.
Rachel McCarthy:
Yeah, we always say it’s like insult to injury, really, truly, because, you know, most people these days are living paycheck to paycheck or you might not have a substantial savings.
And if something happens to you, like some kind of catastrophic accident or a car accident or, you know, a medical device accident, injury, you don’t have a pool of savings or you don’t have a support system that can get you through.
You know, litigation can take years or even even if it’s just for. Six months, you still have to pay your bills.
You still have to pay your rent or your mortgage. And where is that going to come from? It’s like you might know that you’re going to be getting $1 million, $2 million, $500,000 down the line, but that doesn’t help you today.
And so that’s where these people get really stuck.
Lindsey:
And so this model is just so different from everything else that’s out there. So walk me through how this advancement model works and how it is different from the other funding models that are out there.
Rachel McCarthy:
Sure. So the Milestone Foundation provides settlements, advances on settlements at 10% simple interest. So what that means is simple interest is calculated only on the principal amount that you’re advanced.
If you take out a $10,000 advance from us and it takes you a year to pay it back, the interest that would accrue is just 10% simple interest.
So it’s $1,000. A lot of the for-profit companies in the industry… They charge much higher interest than that, and also they do so in a way that compounds.
So the difference with compounding interest is that it’s calculated on the principal plus any interest already earned. So it could compound monthly, it could compound quarterly, biannually.
Everyone has a different model. And when you take that into consideration and the interest rates that they’re doing that at, we’ve seen people owing an interest of 49% at the end of the year on what they’ve been advanced.
It’s really egregious. And the reason why it can be that way is because the industry is really not regulated.
It’s not federally regulated. Certain states are more specific with rules or restrictions or guidelines around this. But for the most part, the type of lending is called non-recourse.
So that means that if you don’t recover, if you don’t, in these cases, if you don’t receive a settlement, if your case doesn’t, you know, you don’t win.
Or maybe you received a settlement, but it’s much smaller than what you were advanced, then you don’t have to pay it back.
So if we fund a plaintiff who is struggling to make ends meet and their attorney feel like it’s a great case and in the end something happens and it doesn’t work out, we’re out that money.
And so the fact that it’s that high risk, it justifies the for-profit lenders to charge such high interest because they need to cover that.
And so that’s one of the things that’s great about us, but also tricky is because we don’t charge those high interest rates because we’re not trying to turn a profit.
But then if we end up giving out a lot of money and we don’t get it back since we’re a non-profit, it just limits how much more we can give out.
Lindsey:
Right. And I’m sure that as a non-profit, you’re looking for other ways to offset that risk. Looking for grants and other ways that support, financially support your foundation.
And since it is risky, are there any limits on how much an applicant can borrow or what expenses the loan can be used for?
Rachel McCarthy:
Yes. So the Milestone Foundation is a little more strict in what we will fund, given what I said, that we don’t have, we don’t charge a lot of interest.
We don’t have a big cushion. So we are more reserved in what we will fund. We do not typically fund more than $25,000.
And I would say our sweet spot is around $6,000 is the average advance that we give. It’s really just intended to be a bridge, a bridge gap to help them get to their settlement.
And we encourage people to not take much more than they need, you know, and that’s another thing that makes us different than the other companies.
They may say, yeah, take whatever, take, you know, take $100,000 to them. It doesn’t, it does no skin off their back.
Because they’re just growing interest on that. And so the more you take, the more they’ll make. So we really work with families and plaintiffs to try to figure out what they think they need.
And we will only provide for basic living expenses. So housing, transportation, child care, support, groceries, utility bills, those things.
Lindsey:
And that makes a lot of sense. Because no, you don’t want to be bridging the gap and then having somebody go out and get like a new handbag that’s, you know, $3,000.
Right. Exactly. So that’s really not what it’s used for.
Rachel McCarthy:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And so with this, you know, what other preventative measures do you put in place to make sure that your borrowers are actually going to win their case?
How do you protect yourselves with that?
Rachel McCarthy:
I mean, there’s not much we can do. know, part of consumer litigation funding is you’re not taking an interest in the case or you don’t have any say or influence over how the case pans out.
So really, we rely heavily on our network of trial lawyers to send us plaintiffs in cases that they feel are pretty strong.
And so we sort of think of that as our first level of vetting, I guess, is we really want trial lawyers who recommend the Milestone Foundation to their plaintiffs to understand how we operate and how we’re different.
And then to send us cases that they feel like there’s a good likelihood that this person will recover and that you will get your advance back.
And then we just have a committee that assesses all these claims, speaks really thoroughly with both the plaintiff and the attorney before we review their case, just to make sure we have a full understanding of the whole picture.
A lot of the other for-profit companies, you can just go on their website and fill out a quick form and they’ll guarantee funding in 24 hours or something like that.
And we’re a little more diligent than that. So it might take a few days before you hear back from us.
Because we do have a committee that reviews the cases once they have all the information they need.
Lindsey:
And so clearly this needs to go through the attorney first before it reaches you. So what are the steps for a client to apply for funding through the Milestone Foundation?
Rachel McCarthy:
Yeah, we typically, whether we receive outreach from the attorney or from the plaintiff, we direct them to our website where there’s an application form.
And that will get them in the queue. And then we have a case manager who will reach out, talk to the plaintiff, talk to the attorney.
You know, we have to get the attorney’s buy-in or agreement, rather, that they are aware that their plaintiff is taking funding.
And a lot of attorneys, a lot of trial lawyers don’t like consumer litigation funding. And I get it because they’ve seen how their clients don’t really understand what they’re signing or they don’t know what they’re asking or they don’t understand the implications of the arrangement.
And so trial lawyers tend to be really, you know… Stay away from consumer funding. I do understand, but that’s why we really want to educate the whole community and let them know what we’re doing is different.
Our mission is different. We’re not the same as the other guys. Essentially, just go to the website and fill out a form, and that puts the request in the pipeline.
That’s great.
Lindsey:
It’s a great place to start, and what a great mission you guys have.
Rachel McCarthy:
Can you share any success stories or case studies where the Milestone Foundation has proven transformative for plaintiffs? Yeah, and every plaintiff’s story is interesting and compelling.
That’s why I wish we could fund everyone. I hate having to say no to some requests, but as a nonprofit, we have limits on our funds and on our financial situation.
So we recently had an advance that was paid off just within the past month, and this individual, he was…
Father of six kids, you know, working to support his family. And he was injured by a defective medical device.
So he was having a blood clot removed from his leg and the device broke off in his body. And the broken device had him hospitalized for over 30 days.
He needed to have all these further procedures. And he was out of work this whole time and then had to continue to be out of work while he recovered.
And I think, you know, we gave him in advance. We helped him keep the roof over his family’s head while his case was being litigated.
And he was super appreciative. We just spoke with him when he paid it back a couple weeks ago. And one thing I thought was also interesting was he really spoke about the way it affected his mental health.
Because unless you’re a plaintiff yourself or if you’re a trial lawyer, you can’t easily empathize with what someone is going through when they’re going through a catastrophic accident or a tragedy or this trauma.
And they’re already struggling with a change in their circumstances. And then all of the, you know, like the ripple effects.
So he was like, it really just helps me with my mental health as well, because I started spiraling, not knowing what I was going to do.
So I think that that’s a really good thing to consider, too, is it’s more than just this person is down on their luck or something like that.
It’s like, you know, they’ve had a life-altering incident. And then on top of that, now they’re scrambling to figure out how they can keep their family afloat.
So it’s just a really hard time for, you just have to be, you know, mindful of all those things.
Lindsey:
Well, and I know that there is a study out there that shows the different levels of stress that happen from different life events.
And I think right up there with the loss of a spouse or a divorce, financial stress is one of the most taxing stresses on your body.
Your cortisol levels are through the roof and it just takes its toll on you in a way that. Very few other things can.
So when you have that compounded with a physical injury, and you and I, you know, as mothers, we both know that having kids is already a stress enough of its own, but to have six kids on top of that, to know that at least that financial burden is taken off of your plate, know that the roof is going to stay over your head, your kids are going to have food to eat, there’s going to be some semblance of normalcy for the people that you care about most.
You can’t, mean, there, there’s absolutely nothing like that. I’m sure that that was so transformative and huge piece of his overall healing, and he will be appreciative for years to come.
And so these are the great kinds of things that you guys are doing right now. How do you envision the Milestone Foundation evolving over the next five to 10 years?
Rachel McCarthy:
Well, I would love for us to become better known in the industry, because I’m still surprised that we’ve been around for almost 10 years, but we’re sort of like a best kept secret.
So we definitely would love to. to expand and grow our reach. I’d love to see us do more advocacy work.
Personally, I’m really interested in politics, but to see us take more of a leadership role with trying to get the industry more regulated so these for-profit lending companies have more guidelines that they have to adhere to so that more companies, I mean, we, and there are certainly other players out there that are better than others.
You know, there are ones that are much more ethical than others, but it would be great to just see like what the basic, you know, fundamental rules that they have to follow, have it be standardized and have everyone have, you know, just more restrictions around what they’re allowed to do.
So I think that advocacy work is a really interesting angle that we haven’t totally explored yet. So I’d love to see us expand in that.
And then obviously, yeah, I’d love for us to grow our reach. And in order to do that, we have
To get more reliable revenue streams, so donations and grants and any kind of, you know, if you’re a trial lawyer that has a family foundation or your law firm has a charitable giving department, you know, those are the types of things that we would love to be in consideration to receive.
Because the more funding that we receive through any avenue is more funding that we can give out to families.
And it really is like a self-fulfilling model. You know, we give out in advance and then when they get their settlement, whether that is a year or two from now, they pay it back and it goes back into the pool of funds that we can give.
So, you know, we’ve been around for 10 years and we’ve given out $6 million to families and in just this revolving pool of funds.
So the more people that know about us, that send us good cases. You know, the more that donate to our mission or understand what we’re trying to do in the industry and get on board with it, the bigger we can grow, the more plaintiffs we can help.
Lindsey:
And you have a great listener base here that is, you know, following along with everything that you’re saying. And so how can our listeners support you or get involved with the Milestone Foundation?
Rachel McCarthy:
How can they reach out? So for trial lawyers, we really just, we’re happy to talk to anyone. I would love to get involved with state trial lawyer organizations or associations.
Just, you know, anyone in the personal injury space, they can email me, rachel at themilestonefoundation.org. They can reach out on our website.
But really, like us on social media. Help us just get the word out. If you’re on a trial lawyer listserv and someone’s looking for consumer litigation funding, mention the Milestone Foundation, you know.
So if they’ve never used us before, they can check us out and see what we do and just hear a little bit about our mission.
So really just… Spreading the word, sending us plaintiffs that need some help and could use our services and have a good case.
And then, yeah, just partnering up, opening any doors for us, really. I mean, what we’re doing here today, Lindsey, being able to reach a new audience, you never know who’s going to hear the work that you’re doing and think, oh, this is awesome.
I was a plaintiff myself. I know what that’s like. Or I’m a trial lawyer who hates this industry.
Lindsey:
How can I help? You know, so just getting the word out there is really helpful. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking about the Milestone Foundation today and sharing your mission and your process.
And thank you so much for the great work that you’re doing for the plaintiff community. Thanks so much, Lindsey.
It’s been really nice to talk with you.
On this episode of the “Personal Injury Marketing Minute,” the spotlight is on how to make PPC (Pay-Per-Click) campaigns and landing pages click with the right audience. While PPC campaigns can sometimes feel like a tough nut to crack in crowded markets, they can be a game-changer for the right law firm—if they’re done the right way.
Mary Blackiston joins the conversation to share her tips, tricks, and personal experiences in creating PPC ads and landing pages that actually convert.
In this episode, we cover:
- How PPC ads and landing pages work together
- Data to look at when creating language for PPC ads and
- Worst PPC/Landing Pages Mistakes
Visit Mary online here: www.thryvedigitalmarketing.com or https://www.linkedin.com/in/marybblackiston/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
https://youtu.be/GxvgwMLWUmg
Transcript:Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. Traditionally, we steer clear of talking about PPC campaigns.
For many attorneys in saturated markets, PPC campaigns haven’t produced a great ROI. However, they can be incredibly useful for the right firms, but only if they’re done right.
So today, we’re going to take a deep dive into the art of creating PPC ads and corresponding landing pages that convert.
Mary: joins us today. to discuss her approach to creating PPC ad language and landing pages that are backed by research and data, increasing conversions based on the user.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Mary:
Thank you for having me.
Lindsey:
Well, tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into marketing.
Mary:
Yeah, so I started working in marketing about 8.8 and a half years ago now. I started working as a content marketer at a digital agency, and I stayed there for about four years.
While I was there, started to kind of dip my toes into copywriting, and that’s when I realized, hey, this is a lot of fun.
I really like doing this, but I didn’t really get into it until I broke off to do my own thing.
So that was about four and a half years ago that I, you know, became freelance, and I started to
Basically to learn everything I possibly could about copywriting. I went through copy school, which I’m not sure if you’ll are familiar with that, but basically the most comprehensive copywriting training on the internet today.
Got certified in a bunch of their courses, read as much as I could about marketing and psychology and copywriting.
And yeah, they just started putting everything into practice, working with clients. Over the last two years, I started working more and more with law firms in particular, and that work felt really meaningful to me.
I really enjoyed it, and I felt like I was making a positive impact by helping those firms. So that’s why I decided to specialize in legal marketing.
Lindsey:
And so how did you end up working with PPC ads and landing pages for PPC ads?
Mary:
Yeah, so I had one client in particular that we worked on a Google ads campaign for him, and we got some…
Amazing results. And I felt like, you know what, there’s, as I looked at more and more PC campaigns, I was like, there’s a lot that I can do to help optimize these campaigns to help these firms bring in more qualified leads.
And we can talk about that a little bit more later, some of the biggest mistakes I see. But yeah, I saw a lot of room for opportunity there.
And it’s something I really enjoy doing is kind of digging through that data and, you know, figuring out, okay, what can we do to bring in not only more clicks, but more, you know, qualified leads.
And yeah.
Lindsey:
And PPC is so complicated. And you’re right, there are so many things that can go wrong with it. And there are some people who are really great with the technical aspects of it.
There are people who can be great with the written content pieces of it. But before we get into too much of the weeds, let’s start with kind of an overview.
So for those of our listeners who have never used PPC, How is it set up? So how is a PPC ad written?
And where does a user go? How do they navigate to the landing page? Can you walk us through that process?
Mary:
Yeah, so when someone searches for something on Google, you know, there’s some ads that pop up, and then the ad takes them to a specific landing page.
The goal is for you want the ad in the landing page to feel, you know, kind of like a seamless experience, meaning the message and the tone should match people when they land on the page, should be not really any surprises.
So if the ad, for example, says like injured in a car accident, get a free legal consultation, then the landing page should continue that conversation, not suddenly talk about unrelated services.
So I see a lot of firms that like maybe actually have an ad for one thing, but then they take people to their homepage or something that’s unrelated to what.
People are searching for, or they, you know, their ads are showing for services that they don’t offer. So this is just a complete waste of your ad budget.
So, you know, you want, that’s why it’s so important to either have more, more targeted keyword type, like phrase or exact match, or add a lot of negative keywords to your campaign to make sure that’s not showing up for, you know, for those keywords.
Lindsey:
And so kind of, I want to, I want to jump to another question that I had in mind, but how much control do you have over the language that appears in the campaign language versus how much does Google change the language after you’ve said it?
Mary:
Well, when I first write the ad copy, like the headlines and the descriptions, I write the ad copy and then Google tests different combinations to determine the best placement of the copy, you know, depending on what people are searching for.
So that said, I normally prefer. To pin headlines, because I found that that can lead to the best results.
Google doesn’t really like it because Google likes to have control over your campaign. But pinning your headlines gives you more control over how that appears and allows you to attract like a more targeted audience.
So for example, like with one of my clients, this client helps women who have been harassed by their landlords, we noticed that a few unqualified leads have been trickling in.
So for some reason, we’ve been getting leads that had nothing to do with what he offers. So rather than let Google mix and match our ad copy, I suggested that we pin the headline Stop Housing Harassment.
So that would appear first in the ad and kind of essentially help pre-qualify leads. So my thinking was, okay, it might help, it might decrease our CTR, but it would increase our conversion rate and bring in higher quality leads.
So I was right. Click-through rate dropped from 14.29% to 4.26%. And then our conversion rate for that ad went up from 7.87% to 19.36%.
And then most importantly, the lead quality improved. So it’s all just from hitting the headlines. But then the funny thing was that our quality score, which is like what Google says, if your ads are poor or good, and it stayed poor, presumably because we weren’t listening to Google’s recommendations, but the ad actually performed better.
So it goes to show, don’t pay too much attention to the quality score. At the end of the day, it’s not a very important metric.
Lindsey:
Right, because what Google wants is to make money.
Mary:
They want people to be clicking on that ad.
Lindsey:
And their metric for success is how many clicks is this ad generating? And it’s not necessarily, it doesn’t have the data to show, you know, what is the…
Lead quality at the end of this and how qualified are the leads that are coming in? So they’re using the only metric they have.
And of course, it’s going to be poor, but you want to be targeting the right types of clients. And so this starts with doing research on the clients that you’re trying to target.
And that’s one of the things that I really appreciate about your method. So let’s dig into your PPC campaign development a little bit.
What research do you conduct when you’re hashing out the language for the PPC ads themselves?
Mary:
Yeah, so I start every project with the discovery phase and the voice of client research. So first, I hop on one or two 60-minute messaging intensive calls.
That’s what I call them with my clients. That’s where I ask a series of questions to find out more about their goals, their firm, their unique differentiators, what is their story, like the why behind what they do, the different services that they offer, and their target audience.
ahead ahead and if Bye. Then if possible, I’ll also like to speak with the intake specialist or two, since they speak a lot with the ideal client.
I also ask my client to send over any research and data from the last year, if they’ve been running any PPC campaigns.
So that could include intake call recordings or transcripts, particularly if they can be anonymized. Anonymize is great. Email exchanges with clients, and again, if those can be removing any identifying information, testimonials, conversion data, or any data on lead quality, website analytics, like that sort of thing.
And then from there, I do my own research, and that’s the voice of client research. So reviewing all the research that my client provided me with.
Also, I’m interviewing three to five of my clients’ clients, sending a survey to their email list if they have one, checking out forums or like Reddit or Facebook groups where their ideal client hangs out.
To see what questions they’re asking, the words that they use, looking at the language and all of that. And then I analyze the research and look for any trends and pull everything together into comprehensive messaging docs.
And that outlines basically the, like who the ideal client is, and the solution that my client is offering. So, yeah, it goes into a little more detail, but that’s kind of in a nutshell how the research process works.
Lindsey:
Well, and I think that you’re hitting the nail on the head with it, especially when you are reaching out to former clients.
Nobody’s going to be able to tell a law firm why a client is signing up with a certain law firm better than the client who signed up with that law firm.
Like a lawyer can only have so much self-awareness of what is driving the clients through the door. But when you actually talk to your former clients or existing clients about what you’re doing well about.
Where their needs are prior to coming in, what attracted them to work with this specific law firm, that’s data that is just gold when you’re trying to attract future clients.
Mary:
Yes, definitely.
Lindsey:
And so for each of these PPC campaigns that you’re writing, do you typically do like one blanket PPC campaign, like here’s an ad that we’re going to run in the one process, or do you tend to make a multitude of ads that are attracting people at different stages in their journey, trying to find an attorney?
Mary:
Um, well, it really depends. But to keep things simple, we, you know, normally just start with one landing page, and then a few sets of ads.
And then we can always expand from there. But it, you know, if you’re running, so starting with just one kind of really target offer.
So for example, with my We’re now working on a more targeted campaign, you know, for women who have been just assaulted.
So rather than harassed, they’ve been assaulted, experienced something physical. So we’re targeting that very specific audience. But yeah, I mean, you can go much more in depth with it.
You can also create blog posts that are, you know, like if someone’s searching for what do I do after a dog bite or something like that, we know that the person has likely, you know, been in this accident and they’re looking, they might not be looking for a lawyer yet, but they’re, they need guidance on the next step.
So like something like a blog post can, can help to nurture the audience to provide them with some valuable content and then have a call to action at the end that will, you know, or throughout the post that will get them to take action.
So, yeah, there’s a lot of different ways that you can do it. But I think just keeping things simple and one landing page and then, you know, expanding from there based on like the search terms that we find people are like, what are they searching for?
How can we match that intent with the landing page and that copy?
Lindsey:
Well, and I guess most of our listeners here are personal injury attorneys. And my broader question here is if we’re working with a personal injury attorney and they have car accidents and they have dog bites and they have motorcycle accidents and bicycle accidents, should they be running a different PPC ad campaign for each different accident type and have individual landing pages for each of those campaigns?
Or should it all be leading back to one landing page?
Mary:
Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, definitely want to have individual landing pages for each of your services. And that’s something that I’ve seen, like a lot of law firms do not do, they create like just send people to their homepage or something.
So the ad copy or the, you know, people are searching something into Google, and then maybe searching for like, car accident attorney, and then they’re taken to a landing page that’s just like, you know, very general.
It’s not, it’s not speaking to someone who’s just been in a car accident. So you definitely want to create targeted landing pages for each of your campaigns.
Yeah, that’s super, super important. Also, because we really want to have, be speaking to one, one audience, one reader.
That way, we can be more specific with the copy. If you’re speaking to multiple audiences, it’s, it’s much more difficult to create really persuasive, compelling copy.
That’s why homepages are often very difficult to write, because they’re speaking to so many different audiences. But landing pages, you
You can get really, really specific, and a specific copy is always going to perform better.
Lindsey:
Well, I can imagine you can take this into a very granular level where you, I mean, yes, of course, have a PPC ad.
If you have a motorcycle accident ad, have a motorcycle accident landing page that corresponds with that. Somebody’s in an accident, they’re searching for motorcycle accident attorney, takes them to that page, bada boom.
But you can create additional types of campaigns that have a more granular audience. So let’s say the motorcycle accident was fatal.
If you have a spouse who is looking for an attorney, a wrongful death, a fatal motorcycle accident attorney, they’re going to be looking for very different information than somebody who survived the accident and is looking for an attorney for themselves.
So creating different ads that are curated for different audiences and different landing page that can meet somebody empathetically where they’re at, you can get really creative and have a breadth of land.
Landing pages that can specifically target a certain demographic.
Mary:
And so it’s one of the beautiful things that you can do with ad copy.
Lindsey:
is, you know, an infinite well of possibility that goes into it. And I know that you take a look at the audiences as you’re researching the copy for the landing pages themselves.
So talk to me about your research process as you are looking at the demographics that you’re writing to and how you are creating the language for each landing page.
Mary:
Yeah. So, you know, I think I touched on the research process before, but that’s like some of what that might involve might be like reviewing all recordings or chat transcripts or, you know, any kind of communication with the client.
Testimonials that they’ve written or even if you don’t have a lot of, if the firm does not have a lot of testimonials, reviewing like testimonials for competitors to see, okay, what are these things that they really value?
What are the things that they don’t value, like, you know, to see both the good and the bad reviews that they’ve left.
And then also the client interviews are a really good way to get that voice of client research. So I like to interview like at least three of my clients’ clients, you know, the three to five is a good number to shoot for and record those calls.
And then, yeah, basically looking for, okay, what are, who is this target audience that we’re speaking to? What are their really deep-seated pain points and hesitations, motivations?
What are the things that they need to know in order to take the next step? And just, yeah, it goes into a lot of detail, but that sort of high level, the things that I look for.
When I go through the research.
Lindsey:
And it’s such an art because a lawyer can, of course, sit down and write a page of content. Typically, the lawyers that we work with and lawyers that we know have a tough time of taking off the lawyer hat when they’re writing information.
They are very focused on laws and what the state statutes are and the basic information, as opposed to really getting inside the head of somebody who has been through a highly traumatic experience and knowing specifically what those pain points are and writing to those in a way that says, we’re going to take care of you.
And we’re going to alleviate this pain point to the best of our ability. And here’s how we’re going to support you throughout this process.
So it’s so important to get inside the head of the person who’s actually reading this content. You’ve gotten them there.
You are speaking to them and helping them with the exact struggle that they are facing right now.
Mary:
Yes. Yeah. Having empathy is super important. And it’s like you said, copywriting is not the same as the writing we learn in school.
Like the way that I wrote. In college, it’s very different from writing copy. mean, writing copy is literally just writing like you speak.
So I, you know, just see a lot of websites, law firm websites that use more very formal language, and that really just creates a barrier between you and the reader.
So you want to, you know, that it’s really having the opposite effect of what you what you want. know that law firm websites, maybe they’re also speaking to other lawyers, so that’s kind of have to find that the balance.
But that’s why having targeted landing pages for your audience, are super important, because you might speak to them in a different way than you would speak to another lawyer, for example.
Lindsey:
Well, and content writing for the PPC landing pages is different than copywriting for, you know, for the regular pages for your website, when you’re trying to use, you know, SEO best practices as the guidelines here.
And when it comes to SEO, we tend to write content that is really in depth, that covers all the information, answers all the FAQs.
And gives all the information. That Google wants to see and that anybody could possibly ask as they are searching for a specific thing.
But the BBC landing pages are created in a different way. So can you talk to us a bit about how in-depth these landing pages are and what types of information need to be on them?
Mary:
Yeah, so that really depends on the target audience, what the service is and all of that. But I always say it’s however long it needs to be to get the reader to take action.
So however much copy that requires, normally like the landing pages that I write for law firms tend to be like at least 4,000 words, like 4,200 to 500 words around there seems to be like the sweet spot.
So, you know, that’s addressing all of their questions that they might have. Their hesitations, pain points, everything. So it’s pretty in-depth.
And then it’s bringing all that research together. It’s also tying in persuasion techniques, you know, copywriting best practices, and, you know, what, yeah.
But basically, I like to think of the landing page as a kind of conversation with, you know, my client were sitting down, like, at a bar with a good friend, having a drink, and that friend were just in an accident.
You know, probably might not be having a drink at that time, but just, you know, what would that friend be asking, and how would you answer those questions?
So thinking about it like that is, for me, like the most helpful approach.
Lindsey:
And that’s a great approach to it. It’s very natural. It’s very organic. It, you know, allows you to answer questions that people would be naturally having as they have a conversation with Google to try to have this information.
These are all the right pieces of information to be including in these pages. And so we’ve got our PPC ad, we’ve got the language set there, we’ve got our landing page, we’ve the language set there.
The ad is now turned on. So what data are we using throughout the campaign process, and how does that data inform any tweaks that you’re making throughout?
Mary:
Yeah, so there’s a few different metrics that I look at. For example, form submissions, which is an obvious one, how many people are converting.
So right now, because it depends on the campaign right now, for one of my clients, we have a type form, and that’s helping us to bring in more qualified leads.
So we have much fewer people who end up completing the form, so much fewer conversions. But, yeah, so, but we’re hopefully bringing in more questions.
Qualified leads. So I look at for that, like the percentage of clicks that start the form, that gives us an idea of like how qualified our, our traffic or clicks are, and whether or not the copy is resonating with them.
The conversion rate, so the percentage of clicks that complete the form, and that tells us how, you know, qualified the traffic is, unless people aren’t, you know, completing the form for other reasons.
The time on the page, that is another metric I like to look at, like, and that tells me if the copy is engaging people, if people, if the time on page is like 50 seconds, that might tell you something, okay, we need to, you know, optimize the copy here.
So with one of my last clients, used Hotjar to see how people were interacting with the page and how long they spent on the page, where were they clicking around and spending time.
So that is also interesting to look at that data. We also added an exit. It’s an intense survey to find out why people left the page.
Then also like, you know, click. And click-through rate tells us how compelling or relevant our ad copy is. Search terms are, you know, really like to see what search terms, so it’s not really a metric, but just to see what search terms people are putting into Google.
So, you know, are these people like, that can tell us basically if people are searching for unrelated keywords or related keywords to your campaign, and whether or not you need to try a different keyword strategy.
And then cost per qualified lead is obviously a very important metric, so communicating with my client each week about the lead quality, because ultimately the form data can only tell us so much about how qualified those leads are.
And then most important metric, cost per case, which, you know, obviously will take us time, more time to find out, but the lead quality and cost per qualified lead will give us an idea of whether or not we’re headed in the right direction with that.
Lindsey:
see you next time. That’s great. And those are some great success metrics as you’re qualifying and altering your campaign.
And then clearly establishing whether or not this type of marketing is a good ROI for your firm. So let’s get into some dirt.
What are some of the biggest mistakes you see people making when developing PPC campaigns and landing pages?
Mary:
Yeah. So it’s funny. actually posted about this to LinkedIn not too long ago. But these are some of the top mistakes that I’ve seen.
Not having landing pages until people are searching for us. So back to what we were talking about. If someone searches for dog bite lawyer, don’t send them to your homepage, you know.
Have a, or worse, send them to like Clarkson landing page, which I think I’ve actually seen people do too.
So, you know, have the landing page be tailored to what people are searching for. Visitors expect to land on a page that…
You know, speaks to what they’re searching for. So if they have to go on a scavenger hunt looking for the information they need, most people are just going to click off the page and, you know, won’t even bother.
So, and also Google rewards relevance. So the more aligned your page is with the search intent, the better your ads will perform.
Then also treating the landing page like one long blog post. So I see like a lot of law firms, you know, that the pages are not formatted like, like landing pages, they’re kind of just wide margins, big chunks of text, not a lot of photos and the copy just isn’t formatted in a very readable, engaging way.
So instead, I had always advised clients to go with, you know, just shorter paragraphs, you know, smaller margins, varied layouts, bullet points, like bold and italicized keywords, but just having a lot of.
White space throughout that sort of thing. So just structuring it like a landing page and not a blog post.
Not taking into account stage of awareness. So, you know, someone searches for your car accident services, they’ve probably just been in a car accident.
So they don’t need and I see a lot of like landing pages that have, you know, they’re, they’re more like, more read like blog posts, you know, they’re like not taking into account the stage of awareness.
So they’re talking about like, causes of car accidents, but people who’ve just been in a car accident don’t need to know the causes of car accidents, they want to know how you can help them.
So that’s another thing I see a lot. And then just kind of we, we, we language. So, you know, people really don’t care about how long you’ve been in business, the millions that you’ve gotten for their clients.
Many people don’t even like think about money as a motivator. So they, they just, they care about like, okay.
their problem, how you can help them. So whenever possible, a good rule of thumb is to turn every sentence around to start with you.
So that is just like a subtle shift that will help your readers to see themselves in their messaging. And that will ultimately build trust and make them more likely to take action.
And then, yeah, I still have a few more, but I don’t know.
Lindsey:
No, no, I would love any information that you have to share.
Mary:
Yeah, there’s a, I guess, that kind of similar to what we were talking about, but a lot of legal jargon that’s optimized for SEO, but not for conversions.
So, for example, yeah, just using kind of words that, like, we are a comprehensive legal firm, primarily focused and, you know, like, people don’t care, you know, so get to the point.
What is it that you’re offering? How can you help people? How is it going to benefit them? So like that type of
Language might work well for, like, an academic paper or law textbook, but it’s not moving your reader forward, so it doesn’t belong on the landing page.
It doesn’t, so I like to think, like, Joseph Sugarman, a famous copywriter, like, says that every line of copy should be, like, a slippery slide.
So every line of copy should take your, you know, should make your reader want to keep reading. So that’s kind of a good thing when you’re, just read the copy and be like, does this, you know, make the person, like, make, you know, or get someone else to read your copy, and, like, does this make them want to keep reading?
If not, then probably doesn’t belong on your page. And then speak to your readers as if they were a good friend, use a voice of client research to mirror the language that they use.
Then the last kind of thing that I see, that I can think of, least, is not having an about story.
see a lot of, I mean, some law firms do this, but I see a lot that don’t have this, and that’s…
A huge missed opportunity because sharing a compelling story and like the why behind what you do, that creates trust and it builds a connection with the reader.
And yeah, people at the end of the day, people hire people, not faceless firms. So sharing like why this is so important to you, why you butt into what you do can really go a long way.
Lindsey:
And I think that those are all some really great tips. And I think that there are some opportunities there that a lot of lawyers overlook.
So if there was one thing that lawyers could do today to help as they write a landing page for a PPC ad, what is the one best tip that you could give them?
Mary:
It’s hard to pick just one. I mean, I think, yeah, voice of client research, but that’s pretty time consuming.
I mean, if you want kind of the So if you don’t want to hire a copywriter, you just want to do it yourself, checking out Reddit is a really great place to get some voice of client research on a budget and a time crunch.
So that can go a really long way to helping with your copy and create that copy.
Lindsey:
Get to know your clients, like whether they are your clients that you are interviewing as an exit interview or you’re going to Reddit to find out what other people think.
Mary:
Ask the questions.
Lindsey:
Don’t assume that you know where they’re coming from or what the pain points are. Really talk to them and ask some good questions.
So thank you so much, Mary. I really appreciate your time joining us today and sharing all your information. And if you send us the link to your LinkedIn article or any other resources that you have, we’ll be happy to share them in the podcast notes.
Mary:
Thank you.
Levin & Perconti is a leading personal injury law firm based in Chicago. Joining us today is managing partner Margaret Battersby Black. Margaret is an award-winning attorney who has obtained many large verdicts and settlements including record ones for her clients especially in the areas of nursing home and medical malpractice cases at Levin & Perconti.
Margaret is committed to the advancement of women in the legal profession and serves as a mentor to law students and younger lawyers. In 2023 she was bestowed the “Carole K. Bellows Women of Influence” award which honors those who are advocates for action addressing women’s issues and promote involvement by women in the legal community at all levels. Additionally, Margaret will be installed as the 3rd Vice President of ITLA, ascending to the presidency in 2028 as the organization’s 75th president. She will become the 4th woman president in the organization’s history.
Today, she’s going to talk with us about what it’s like being both a personal injury attorney and a mom with two young kids.
Visit Margaret online here: https://www.levinperconti.com/attorneys/margaret-p-battersby-black/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription:Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield.
Every year, more and more women have been joining the legal profession. According to the ABA, women now comprise 41% of all lawyers in the United States.
With women now making up over 56% of all law school students, this trend is only expected to escalate. But women face some hurdles in their careers that men simply don’t, at least not to the same degree.
This is especially true when it comes to balancing motherhood and a high-pressure career. To be clear, many male lawyers are amazing fathers who are actively engaged in their kids’ lives, and y’all deserve support and praise too.
But as women continue to join the legal profession in droves, it is important to be mindful of the challenges and opportunities to provide support as we push forward in our path to legal excellence.
Margaret:, an award-winning… Attorney from Levin & Perconti joins us today to discuss life as a personal injury attorney and a mom with two young children.
In 2023, she was bestowed the Carol K. Bellows Women of Influence Award, which honors those who advocate for women’s issues and promote women’s involvement in the legal community.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Margaret:
Thanks, Lindsey. I’m glad to be here.
Lindsey:
Well, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got started in your legal career.
Margaret:
Sure. So I’ve actually been working in my legal career, and this is now my 18th year, I think, 17th year as a lawyer.
But I actually started with this firm as a law clerk back in 2006. And so backing up a little bit, I grew up in Michigan.
I come from a family of lawyers and judges, and according to my parents, I always had a sense of fairness and justice.
And so I think that was probably a challenge for my parents, but they understood that maybe it meant that I had some spirit that was destined to, you know, take me to into the field of law.
And so I did, actually, law was not my first career. I went to the University of Michigan, had the great fortune of getting into their undergrad business school, and there were a lot of opportunities for me coming out of undergrad to move to Chicago and work at a financial firm.
So I did that for several years. I liked it. I had great opportunities, but I did realize that I probably wasn’t meant to sit at a desk in crunch numbers.
And the idea of law school was always in the back of my mind. My dad had suggested that I take some time off and work.
Work, just make myself distinguishable in the legal marketplace for when I would come out of law school. And so I worked for three years for JPMorgan Chase in Chicago, and then started law school.
When I started, I knew I wasn’t going to become a corporate lawyer or do big law, or I knew I wanted to be a trial lawyer.
I knew I wanted to be in front of people. I knew I wanted to help people. I was pretty sure it wasn’t going to be a prosecutor or, you know, criminal defense lawyer.
And so I had the great fortune of having a conversation in December of 2005 with one of my dad’s best friends from law school, who knew Steve Levin of Levin & Perconti, where I now work.
And he said, you know, reach out to him if you’re interested in something for the summer. You know, he, you know, frequently will hire law clerks.
So I. Reached out. I got an interview, which at the time, apparently I was highly impressive to Steve because I brought a paper copy of my resume and also sent an electronic one in advance.
And back in 2006, don’t know, maybe many people weren’t doing that. So he hired me, funny enough, because we’re doing a podcast right now.
He hired me way back when legal blogging was just kind of taking off. And he had all these great ideas.
He’s a really innovative marketer in the personal injury space, but he could not execute them. And so he hired me to learn how to blog and to just start blogging about different topics.
So that was kind of towards the end of my first year in law school. And I liked working with him.
They needed a full-time law clerk. So I stayed on for the summer. on for the And I think that summer is when I knew that personal injury was probably going to be the right move for me, because I was able to work that summer on a trial that Steve Levin and Mike Bonamart, my current partner, were working on that involved a family, two younger, I’ll say, 20-something daughters who had lost their mom due to neglect in a nursing home.
And just kind of some personal background, when I was 23, I lost my mom in a car accident. And so I was able to relate to what it’s like to be in your 20s and maybe not have gone through some of the milestones with your mom that you were expecting or be able to learn from your mom some of the things that you need to know to become a mom and as you age.
So Steve… And appropriately and softly asked if that was something I was willing to work on, to meet with these women, try to get out of them some good evidence so that we could put their testimony on at trial so that we could bring to the jury what they lost.
And that was really rewarding to me. And I really bonded with these women because we had been through similar experiences where there’s a sudden loss.
And, you know, just on that note, since we’re talking today about women in personal injury, I think that that is one really strong skill set that women bring to this profession is, you know, that we typically have empathy and we, you know, are able to maybe, you know, better navigate people through times of crisis, just with maybe some motherly instincts.
It doesn’t mean you have to be a mother to have those motherly instincts, of course, but because at the time that I was.
Doing that, I was not. But that was, we won that case. The clients were, you know, thrilled. And I had a great time working with Mike and Steve.
And I told my dad, you know, I think, I think I want to do what you do, because my dad is a personal injury lawyer, too.
And so that was always in the back of my mind, too. Meeting clients who he had helped throughout his life, you know, who still kept in touch and thanked him for changing their lives.
And it felt a lot better than crunching numbers at a bank. Well, and it’s clearly a natural fit for you.
Lindsey:
You come from a, you know, long line of lawyers, and you have the family support there. And it sounds like you made a real personal connection when you were choosing your field and realizing that this was absolutely the right type of practice for you.
And so you have your legal career, and you are also balancing, clearly, motherhood at the same time.
Margaret:
So tell us a little bit about. about your family and about your kids. Sure. Well, today, I have an 11-year-old, Evelyn.
She will be a middle schooler next year. And a 10-year-old, William, so he’ll be in fifth grade. And they’re at a great age right now where they still like me and want to hang out with me, but they can do things for themselves.
So, like, you know, Evelyn can go to the corner grocery store and pick up some things for me. And, you know, William, he can take the trash out.
He’s not quite as adventuresome with his willingness to, you know, do things for me. But it’s been a long road, you know, as you know.
You know, they were infants and toddlers. They’re 19 months apart. So certainly integrating, you know, working at a law firm and kind of, you know, I don’t really, I would say I probably didn’t really ever.
I my pace in terms of what I was able to handle with trials and workload. I certainly had a lot of support and help at home.
I had, you know, Annie. My husband decided around COVID time that he would retire and he would be our childcare solution.
And that obviously allows me great latitude to be able to do what I want. And, you know, obviously I had a lot of support at Levin & Perconti.
So when I went on maternity leave, it was the first maternity leave that they had experience with a lawyer in 21 years.
Lindsey:
Oh, wow.
Margaret:
Yeah. So my partner, Susan Novosad, who was one of the founder, founding lawyers of the firm, she had three kids.
So she went through it, but it had been a while. And I just remember, you know, I. I love what I do so much that, although obviously I needed maternity leave and I loved maternity leave and I, you know, wanted to take it and bond with the kids, like it was very hard for me to completely disconnect.
And I have, you know, really great colleagues who would keep me filled in, but still would cover things for me so, you I could spend time with my kids.
But, you know, I did stay connected when I was on maternity leave because I feel like, you know, a lot of my clients are like my own family and I want to make sure that they’re getting, you know, navigated through the process.
But I certainly did also get the time to bond with my kids and, you know, do all of those things.
And I’ll tell you, being a mom, I think is a much harder job than being a lawyer.
Lindsey:
I can absolutely relate. I have two young kiddos myself. I have a three-year-old daughter and a six-year-old daughter, and I love hearing you say that they are a little bit more self-sufficient in the years to come.
Because my three-year-old was very much up at 515 this morning and, you know, wanting to go to the grocery store and go get bananas.
And I had to explain that the grocery store was not open yet. So I’m glad to hear you say that it gets a little bit easier in the years to come.
Margaret:
But no, the day that you know you really, you kind of made it as a mom is when your youngest can turn on the remote and like make a piece of toaster, get some cereal, because then you might get to sleep in until like seven, eight o’clock, which is, I’m sure something that you’re not doing right now.
Lindsey:
Not as often as I would like. And they’re almost there. My six-year-old has been self-sufficient since she was two and a half.
She had all that figured out. I put all the right snacks at the grabbing distance for her. But the three-year-old very much likes to be social and yeah.
Have, you know, share my cup of coffee in the morning. So it’s, they’re just very different personalities. And it, and that in itself is a challenge to juggle, you know, much less trying to juggle, you know, motherhood as a whole with a career, but I can absolutely relate to what you’re saying, where when you have kids and you go on maternity leave, you have two different parts of your personality that are at odds trying to be engaged at the same time.
You have, you’re trying to bond and connect and you have these maternal instincts that, you know, bring out some very soft parts of your personality.
And then you also have a highly intellectual wanting to be engaged and stimulated and contribute in more cerebral adult ways.
And it can kind of tear you apart if you don’t have the right supports in place.
Margaret:
Yeah, definitely.
Lindsey:
And so what, you know, as you came out of maternity leave and started to kind of navigate back into Yeah.
Full-time legal space. What were some of the biggest struggles that you faced as you were developing in your legal career?
Margaret:
Well, you know, this is, I wouldn’t call this, this is more of on like a micro level. I remember when I came back, the biggest challenge was getting myself to leave the office because when you’ve got infants and toddlers, they’re, you know, they’re in bed for the night, like 6.30 to 7.30.
And I was used to, you know, working until at least then. And then even sometimes, you know, grabbing dinner with colleagues or going to legal events.
So I had to kind of like plan out when to leave. And, you know, at the time that I had Evelyn, so this is 2013, we were equipped that if I needed to work from home, I could log in remotely.
And I did that a lot in her, you know, in the first several months that, that. Following maternity leave that I was like kind of learning how to balance it because I don’t like leaving things unfinished, but I would be working on something and then it would be, oh my gosh, like if I don’t leave now, I’m not going to say goodnight to her.
And so I’d have to just leave it and say, come back when she’s in bed. So that was a challenge.
I always say, you know, I’m going to leave and then I just find myself getting caught up in things.
So disciplining myself to be able to do that, that was a challenge. I will say that the hardest part about being a trial lawyer and having kids is that, you know, I know at some point on this podcast, I assume that the concept of work-life balance will come up, right?
And I do think for what I do, I am able to, on many, many days, plan my day out so that I have that balance.
Today, for example, I’m going to be leaving at 4.30 so I can go. be Will I have to log on this evening just to kind of catch up on things?
Absolutely. But I can do that today because I’m not in court. I’m not on trial. When you’re on trial and you are a personal injury lawyer, you know, I mean, forget about seeing anyone for the duration of the trial.
If you do, great. But you are, you know, I’m up at 445 so I can be in the office at six o’clock and I’m there until my kids go to bed and maybe I’ll see them on the weekends, but I’ve got to work.
And so that is challenging. And I think that that is one of the reasons why it’s difficult to keep women in the profession once they have kids is that when you are on trial or when you have court or something like that, there isn’t flexibility.
You know, you can’t just say I’m going to work from home. You can’t call off. Um, I mean, obviously having support is important because, you know, we’re all human and, you know, people can be sympathetic if you’re absolutely in a bind, but you’re in the middle of a trial, like you’re stuck.
Um, and so that was a, that was a transition to, um, my kids, as they started to get older, started to learn what trial is.
And, you know, if I would say I’m going on trial, they would, you know, they’d be a little down.
Um, but the great thing about what I do is that I would be able to, and I, today, you know, they’re obviously more, um, they’re older and more sophisticated in their understanding of, of the world.
Um, I’m able to say like, I’m going to, to trial because there’s a little boy who has a really bad brain injury and he’s not going to be able to grow up like you and go to college and and have a job.
Um, and he needs me right now. And they’re starting to understand that.
Lindsey:
And that is a hard thing to explain. And, I mean. Especially when you have young children, those are concepts that they are faced with at a really young age when they’re raised in this environment.
And even if you can rationalize your way through it, even if they can really kind of start to put the pieces together, it’s a challenge and there’s no way around it.
It’s sad when you feel like you’re missing the milestones for your kids because obviously trial isn’t being scheduled around when your daughter’s dance recital is.
It’s not being scheduled around those big milestones in life. And that’s a sacrifice that as professionals, especially as personal injury attorneys, you have to be willing to make.
And it doesn’t mean that you don’t love your family or love your kids any less. It’s just a harsh reality that women in this industry have to face.
Um, so I, I wish you all, all of the love in your family, all the love in that, because that.
That’s. And so I know that you’re able to work from home a bit, and that’s a great way that your law firm can help support you.
What other supports do you have professionally that helps take the load off a little bit? Sure.
Margaret:
Well, I mean, there are definitely some structured organizations. I’m a member of the Illinois Women’s Bar Association. The Illinois Trilers Association has a specific group that we call the Women’s Caucus.
So I’m regularly surrounded by women who are going through the same things. So in a lot of ways, that’s helpful because, you know, sometimes you have good tips or good, you can give good tips and feel good about helping someone else, or you can get some good tips.
And just talking through things and knowing that other people are going through it and trying to brainstorm ways. To navigate and, you know, strategize is great.
I would say at Live in Empower County, we almost have like an informal kind of mentoring program because we do have so many women who are working here, many of whom are mothers, many who have navigated their way through maternity leaves while here, or some who have come over maybe from other firms after having kids, but still, you know, have the demands of school conferences and, you know, sporting events and sick kids.
And so I think we’re all very supportive of one another. And, you know, the other thing I think is just kind of being able to encourage people who are going through, you know, days or even weeks or trials where they think like, I’m not like, I can’t do this anymore.
You know, I need to say, I’ve I don’t think I can make it work just to kind of say, like, you can make it work.
We’re here for you. But you know what? I mean, some people, they can’t make it work. And there’s still a role for people in personal injury law who maybe don’t have the flexibility to be able to try cases.
So I think that’s another thing that we’ve done is we’ve been able to accommodate people who maybe, you know, can’t commit to that kind of a schedule.
And then the other thing, of course, is, you know, our policy right now in the office, and this has obviously changed since before COVID and then through COVID, is that lawyers are allowed if they need to a day, one day a week to work from home.
Certainly, if something comes up, you know, it’s flexible where you could work from home more than one day. But on the other hand, when you are in
The office, and you’re surrounded by, like I am, really smart lawyers, many of whom are women, but also many of the men fall into this category too, who are parents and who are, you know, going through different things on their cases, and you can see and interact with people.
There are these just little micro interactions that occur when you’re in an office setting that are kind of important to both your morale and also just your development, because someone comes into my office because I’m here and starts talking about a case, and maybe I’ve had this exact case or I have a brief or something like that.
If we’re sitting at home and we’re independently working, and I don’t have an occasion to see that particular person, then, you know, that interaction doesn’t happen.
So I do feel that it is important to be in the office and as a managing person. Partner, obviously, even if I don’t have anything that takes me to the office, like port or a deposition, just being here and being a resource is important.
So while, you know, flexibility and the ability for, you know, women to be able to, you know, fulfill their second role or their second job as moms is important, it’s also important to be around to support each other and to see each other and to have those interactions.
Lindsey:
Well, and it’s fulfilling to have those interactions. So I I find that when I’m talking with my colleagues, and there’s a very different atmosphere in person, or when we are, you know, on Zoom, because we are all remote, but having that face to face interaction, or sometimes my business partner, Len and I will just have Zoom on and we’ll be working and just be like, Oh, well, yeah, did you see this or that, and then be working on something else.
But just having that accessibility fosters conversations and creativity. That you wouldn’t necessarily have if you are separated and isolated at home.
It feels almost like an intrusion if you are pinging somebody who is at their house. It’s like you’re going and knocking on their door as opposed to being in the same bubble together.
So I absolutely support, especially within law firms, being able to collaborate and get together when it’s for the benefit of your clients and for the benefit of the growth of your law firm.
So that’s an excellent point there. And then having that camaraderie, having the other women and men who are parents who are kind of in the same boat as they’re trying to navigate parenthood as well as being legal professionals.
There are tips and tricks beyond just what’s going on with these cases. It’s, okay, well, how am I going to be intentional about making sure that I have time for the baseball game and to make sure that I have time with my spouse and have time set aside to…
Do right by my cases. So having that intentionality. And yes, let’s talk about work-life balance. How do you handle the expectations of working those long hours while also handling the responsibilities of being a mother and a spouse and all of these different things?
What do you do to make sure that you are structuring your time appropriately, both to make sure that you have the hours in for each segment of your life, but also for your mental health?
Margaret:
Sure. Well, I think, you know, I hate to say it, but there is a misconception about work-life balance. I happen to think that if you like what you’re doing and you’re passionate about what you’re doing and it is a part of your identity and you like going to work, that I think you feel less, I don’t know if I say guilty or, if I would say, you don’t think about a
Work-life balance is quite as much as if you don’t like your job, it doesn’t matter if you’re there for eight hours or like 14, right?
So, you know, I like, I get up and I like coming to work. Are there times where I really wish I could prioritize something else?
Absolutely. But a lot of times I can do that. And I think it’s, I think there’s this misconception that, you know, work-life balance means like absolutes, like you only work a certain number of hours or you, you know, you leave by X time.
It’s really like a give and take. You know, if I know I’ve got a baseball game, like I told you today, and I’m going to have to brave the commute home for that, then I’ve got to get up early and like, you know, put in the work or I got to work late, you know, yesterday, or maybe I’ll have to work a little bit this weekend, or you’ve got to be willing to give and take.
And that is how I make it work. I mean, you can go to all of your kids’ events if you want to go to all of your kids’ events.
obviously, with the exception that you maybe are on trial or due in court or something. But then you’ve got to actually, on the back end, you’ve got to give some things up, right?
You know, I always say the first thing that I give up when I’m really busy at work and I want to do things with my kids is working out.
I mean, that’s important for your mental health and your physical health. But I like doing stuff with my kids.
I like what I do for work. So I’m filled with that as well. Social life, you know, the social life I engage in these days is usually going to legal events or chatting with the parents at baseball, soccer, and dance competitions.
And so, and that’s going to change, right? I mean, I’m going to miss it when it’s gone. But that’s the, you know, that’s the state of my life I’m in right now.
So, you know, the way I think you can have this work-life balance is it’s neither is going to be less demanding on you.
You’ve got to be prepared. That is still put in the work and the time and, you know, to develop your career and to help your clients.
But you can do it at non-traditional times these days with all the technological, you know, tools that we have.
It’s just, you got to be willing to do it. And I think people who struggle with that concept are people who don’t understand that you’ve got to, on the back end, make sure that you keep your commitment.
You know, I think people sometimes want to, you know, they want to go to work during certain hours and then they want to take off work to attend important family or, you know, child care activities.
But then they get stressed out because they didn’t finish something at work and maybe they’re unwilling to then log back on and finish it.
And, you know, then they’re, the next day the stress builds up. And it’s not a perfect science. And of course I have, I still stress.
Struggle with it, but that’s my mentality. And so I think that helps when you come to that realization that like, you know, when they say it’s like a balance, it’s like, well, there’s always going to be your commitment that you’re going to have to make to your, your profession.
You can balance when you do that sometimes and be able to, you know, dip into everything. But obviously sacrifices have to be made somewhere.
Lindsey:
Well, and I think it goes back to a point that you had made earlier, which is you need to have the right expectations for your career.
And this is not, it’s not easy. And it’s not something that everybody can do. And you are fortunate enough to have a law firm that supports you.
You have a husband who is able to give more of his time to, to family and be the support there and be an anchor there.
And that all balances out and not everybody is able to build that kind of lifestyle. Ah, and so I think it’s important that listeners here understand that they need to have appropriate expectations and be very cognizant of what assets they do have in their life and what that allows for them to be able to do and not do.
So it’s not going to be a perfect world. And yes, you need to be able to pour from, you know, X amount from a certain cup.
But if you don’t have those cups there, then sacrifices are going to have to be made. And a lot of times, historically, it’s been women who have had to make the sacrifice of their careers to stay home and fulfill that child development role.
And it has turned the personal injury world, especially because of trial, into very much a boys club for a very long time.
And men have dominated that field. And as more women are starting to come into this field, it’s important to recognize.
Their contributions and the sacrifices that they make. And they bring a skill set and unique qualities that are unique and special.
So can you talk to me a little bit about your take on the unique qualities that women bring to the personal injury field?
Margaret:
Sure. And, you know, this is a conversation. So something you said kind of resonated with me. I feel like a little bit like I’m talking right now, like, oh, I’ve got it all under control.
And, you know, it’s so I just do what I have to do. I mean, there are days where I am disappointing everyone in my life, my family, my friends, my co-workers, like, make no mistake about it.
But I know that. And like you said, there’s expectations, right? Like, I know that that’s to happen. And so do I like it?
Does it make me feel good? No, of course not. But I know, like, we’ll move. And, you know, the next day we’ll be better.
And so on that note, I think along the lines of kind of transitioning from this work-life balance, which I’m putting in quotes for those who can’t see us, and the unique qualities that women bring, I think it’s interesting that generationally, I think there’s a little bit of a shift.
I know that a lot of the men that I work with who, you know, have young kids or who have just gone through, you know, their first delivery or, you know, their wives are pregnant, men do a lot more these days.
And there is more of a sharing of the, you know, household responsibilities. And so that certainly is helpful. And also, it is kind of a little, a little bit even the playing field in that, you know, some of the younger men that I work with, Thank Thank
They’ve got to go to child care obligations, and they’ve got to say they can’t do certain things because, you know, wife is at a business meeting, or they’ve got to be home for the kids, too.
So I think, you know, that has leveled the playing field, just some societal changes. But anyhow, I think it is important to have women at your firm.
I mean, first of all, a lot of personal injury clients are women. My firm happens to handle a lot of areas where I think are more, like, women-dominated in terms of the victims and even the plaintiffs.
So we do a huge practice of birth injury. So obviously, we’ve got women who, you know, have gone through the pregnancy, labor and delivery, and something’s gone wrong.
And now they’re mothers with disabled children. I’m fortunate that I don’t have disabled children, but I’m a mom. And so I certainly have that empathy gone through the labor process.
I know the right questions to ask. We also handle a lot of nursing home abuse and neglect cases, and I’m sure it won’t be a surprise to you that in a lot of these situations, the women are the caregivers for their elderly parents or the point people, and so they’re the ones who call when something goes wrong, or they’re the ones who have the most knowledge about what was going on at the nursing home.
So having women be able to talk to women who have gone through the same thing, that’s important. There’s also having a woman in a courtroom, right?
I think that most law firms these days recognize that having a woman on your team is important for a number of reasons.
We may notice something about jurors that the men don’t. What I’ve noticed in a lot of courtrooms that I’ve been in where there are women who are moms is that of have have Thank
We tend to play kind of like the mom for the courtroom, right? So it’s like, you know, if a juror looks like they need to go to the bathroom, maybe we’ll ask the judge for a bathroom break, or, you know, someone is raising their hand, but everyone else is too busy to see it, you know, we can call that out.
And, you know, just, there’s something about having like a woman in charge of your trial team, just making sure that everyone is taken care of, you know, people are fed, people, you know, know their responsibilities, if someone’s having a bad day.
Now, on the other hand, think about how much mental work that actually takes, right? And if you’re doing that, and you’re also in a courtroom, and you’re trying to, you know, cross-examine witnesses, or give your opening statement, or make arguments to the judge, that is a lot going on.
So just the kinds of skills that women bring into the courtroom. are just so multifaceted. And it’s hard because it’s hard to turn off, you know, your mom hat when you’re in there and you see that someone’s got like a string on their dress and you want to brush it off or whatever it is.
But, you know, I happen to think that like sometimes that may score some points with the jury, right? And of course, the juries these days are comprised, you know, typically equally, if not more of women.
Now, on the other hand, there are some who believe that women are each other’s harshest critics. So that brings up some interesting things about, you know, you’re always being watched in the courtroom, what you wear, how you do your hair, you know, your makeup, shoes.
And, you know, that’s another whole aspect that you’ve got to really be concerned with when you’re trying a case and you’re in front of a jury and a judge and you’re a woman.
People like it or not, for some, they want to know what you’re going to wear the next day. I mean, that’s just, like, what I’ve learned from talking to juries after, you know, having a case is that there are some people who talk about that in deliberation.
Lindsey:
Well, and it’s funny that you mentioned that. We did a podcast a couple years back on what to wear to court, and that made for a really interesting episode.
And it is, women’s fashion is much more of a consideration because nobody really cares what color tie Joe is going to be wearing to court the next day.
But if there’s a short skirt or a shortcut blouse or, you know, what color, what fit, what cut, like, all of those things are very intentional in women’s fashion and are built to be noticed.
So it is, it brings a very different dynamic, um, where you’re not just an attorney, but you’re also a model and you’re a mom and you’re taking care of all of these different things.
And it’s trying to juggle and balance all of this while trying to, you know, sway. Sway a jury, know, convince a jury and empathize with them and bring all of these pieces together for your case.
It goes so much further beyond the actual components of the case itself. So it clearly, clearly a struggle, but, you know, the right attorneys, right women in these roles can, can really bring a very powerful force when they are managing it appropriately and using all of these pieces to their advantage.
And so clearly when, when trying a case, there are these different skills and unique values that women bring to that.
But did you find ever in the marketing or in when you are vetting a prospective client that prospective clients are drawn more to you because you are a woman?
Margaret:
Yes, I definitely have experienced that. I mean, I’ve also been on kind of like the, the opposite of end of end of that particular.
Particularly in the beginning of my career. You know, the other day I had someone who called me and said they looked up my profile online and I was wearing pearls.
And, you know, for some reason that just resonated with them and they like thought they could trust me and they wanted to hire me.
And, you know, we do also handle a lot of sensitive topics. We handle a lot of abuse or assault cases in, like, for example, massage facilities.
And a lot of times people will call and say they want to speak to a woman, you know, at least initially.
And then I’ve also had moments in my career, I’ll tell you, granted they were earlier, but I wouldn’t be surprised, honestly, like, if they still crop up, even as I established myself and I’m a managing partner here, where I’ve said I need to bring in, like, the great-haired male.
I need them. To hear exactly what I’m saying from this guy to try to see if I can, you know, get them to understand what we think they should do in a, you know, decision making in a case.
In early in my career, I would be called actually to sign up cases by some of my male colleagues.
Like, we want you to go out. We think, you know, we think that you’ll resonate with them. And, you know, like, we think a woman needs to be the one to sell them and or, you know, to partner up with someone else who’s going out.
So, yeah, I mean, I think more and more, especially with what I do, because, you know, we deal in this human misery and suffering.
People understand the assets that women bring to the cases and, you know, to the legal team.
Lindsey:
Well, and it’s undeniable. think women definitely bring empathy. They bring the ability to multitask. They. The ability to be a part of, to relate with a prospective client or an existing client on a situation that sometimes a man just can’t, especially when it comes to birth injury or it comes to something that deals with female anatomy that a man just can’t necessarily relate to.
So having a woman on the team, being in a leadership role in the team is a huge asset. And as we leverage the strengths of the female attorneys, it’s also important to build supports for them.
So what can law firms do to support their female employees?
Margaret:
So one of the things that, you know, I’ve obviously talked about the, just kind of giving you the flexibility for women to like stay in the profession and stay in this role, which is giving flexibility when you’re not on trial, right?
I mean, because you know, there’s going to be zero flexibility when you’re on trial. So doing that. Fathom encouraging women to join groups of women that are supporting each other in the same roles.
I think marketing your women, right? Because we talked about the fact that there are clients who are looking for women or, you know, who want to see some diversity when they look at what the law firm’s bringing.
My law firm has been great about doing that. mean, first of all, just for me personally, know, Steve Levin, the founder of the firm, kind of, and I had a talk when I was, when I had proven myself capable to him, you know, as a lawyer and someone he wanted to work with, about, you know, trying to take advantage of my role as one of the few young women that were, you know, trying cases and getting results in this industry.
So, you know, giving them opportunities to speak at conferences, to You know, network with judges and other women lawyers to handle big cases, to be on, you know, winning teams and then to give them the credit when they’re on these winning teams that allows them to continue to market themselves.
So that’s, you know, obviously very important. I’ll say this as someone who I can say maybe now is like older and wiser, but I definitely got bullied when I was a younger female in the legal profession.
And I remember a couple of times having to like call in big brother, call in dad, and have them come and sit in a deposition or go to court with me and kind of like fend off some of the more aggressive lawyers who were maybe taking advantage of my youth and, you know, that I was a woman and my blonde hair.
And I do that now for some of the younger. Women. I have male partners who have called up men from other firms who are opposite and said, why are you picking on the young women at our firm?
You know, like we’ve gotten a lot of reports of you, you know, obstructing depositions or, you know, being nasty and it’s not happening with me.
So, like, what gives? And just kind of like making sure that, you know, we’re protected a little bit. Now, you know, I don’t really need protection anymore, but it’s really challenging being the young female lawyer in this room of, you know, men who have been doing it for, you know, 30 years, you know, who think they need to tell you how it is.
Luckily, like that kind of thing for me just kind of inspires me more to, like, be better and be more prepared and just stand my ground.
But it’s not that easy for everyone. So that kind of support is important too.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. Having advocates for you, mean, and regardless of gender or age or anything, but having a team that really advocates for a level playing field for all of the attorneys to be able to go do their job, get the depositions, and build the cases that are going to be serving their clients.
That is 1000% the right place to start and the right thing to do. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
I really appreciate the insights that you had to share.
Margaret:
Yeah, it was my pleasure. I’d love to come back if you’ve got a new topic for me.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. We’d love to have you back sometime.
Margaret:
All right. Thanks, Lindsey.
Adrianos did not initially plan to become a lawyer, but after finishing law school, he decided to start his own practice rather than work for someone else. He met a mentor who took him under his wing and encouraged him to take on a car accident case, which ended up being a turning point where Adrianos gained trial experience and won an $80,000 verdict. This experience convinced Adrianos that he could succeed as a personal injury attorney.
Adrianos decided to focus his practice on serving the Brazilian and Portuguese community in Los Angeles, as he saw a need that was not being met. His own family’s experience immigrating to the US and facing challenges like language barriers and lack of support networks inspired him to help this underserved population. Adrianos works to build trust, provide education, and offer extra support services to his clients from this community.
Visit Law Offices of Adrianos Facchetti here: https://facchettilaw.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:Lindsey:
Welcome to the personal injury marketing minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world.
I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. Some of my favorite episodes are when we dive into the stories of professionals making a real impact in their communities.
Today’s guest is doing just that, and in a way that is both personal and powerful. Adrianos Facchetti: is not your average personal injury attorney.
Based in Los Angeles, he’s built a thriving practice by serving a very specific community, Brazilian and Portuguese immigrants. And the reason?
It’s deeply rooted in his own story, which gives him a rare and authentic cultural connection to the people he now advocates for in court.
From overcoming language barriers to navigating the complex U.S. legal system. problem… Here He’s made it his mission to protect and empower those who often feel overlooked or misunderstood.
Thank you so much for joining us today, Adrianos.
Adrianos Facchetti:
Glad to be here.
Lindsey:
Well, tell us a little bit about your origin story and how you got into law.
Adrianos Facchetti:
So it wasn’t like I was always planning on being a lawyer. In fact, when I had gone to law school, was probably the, I met like one lawyer until that point.
But it was sort of a default position. I wasn’t really sure what I wanted to do, and I wanted to sort of keep my options open.
Then when I finished law school, just because of my background, my dad had started his own businesses. My brother started his own businesses.
I think we were all just too stubborn to work for somebody else that would have made a horrible employee.
And so I knew I wanted to start my own thing. And so when I started out, I had no connections, nothing.
My parents had come from Brazil and Argentina. And so it wasn’t like I had, you know, a silver spoon.
My mouth or any kind of connections. And then I figured out that I needed to get business, right? And so I had met a mentor about two years in, and I had no idea what I was doing.
And he said to me, look, I’m going to sort of take you under my wing. I’m going to teach you what to do.
I said, great. And we started doing kind of litigation. So real estate litigation, business litigation, whatever you can think of.
And then one day, he says to me, we’re going to do a car accident case. And I said, I’m not sure I want to do that, George.
And he says, we are going to do it. So I said, okay, fine. So long story short, we’re working on this case, and we were like the fourth attorneys in the case, so it’s not a good case.
And he says the policy limits are $25,000 and the offer is $7,500. And I’m calculating that that’s about 200 bucks in my pocket, which was like a million dollars for me.
I needed the money badly. said, yeah. He says, no, we’re going to go to trial. So I said, as long as you do the entire trial, I’m totally fine with it.
He said, don’t worry. He was like in his mid-70s. So we get to trial and all of a sudden, you know, it’s not going well.
He’s a little too old, a little too long in the tooth. And he turns to me and says, you know, I think trial is a young man’s game, Adrianos.
I want you to start doing stuff in the trial. I said, George, I can’t do it. He says, if you don’t do it, I never want to see your face again.
And so I got thrown into the deep end. And so I did it. Same thing with the closing argument.
He has me do the closing argument. I do it as best as I can. And then after the closing argument, we’re sitting in the hallway and the defense attorney turns to me and says, know, Adrianos, that was the best closing argument I’ve ever seen.
And I looked at him because I thought he was hitting on me or something. I could not believe that this was a real compliment.
And I said, okay. And then whatever. So we go in front of the jury and the jury reads the verdict.
And we got an $80,000 verdict. So my thought was, you know, maybe I can actually do this. And that’s how I started.
And just little by little, just grinding, trying to get more business and trying to get a reputation in the personal injury community.
Lindsey:
Well, and that’s fantastic. mean, and so many attorneys start out because their family is full of lawyers, and they’ve had this experience growing up, and like, it’s just expected of them to go through this path.
So it’s always refreshing to hear from somebody who didn’t grow up dreaming of being an attorney or who didn’t have those built in mentors in life.
And you don’t necessarily need to know everything or be inundated with it, you know, when you’re a kid, so long as you know who to ask.
And so having that mentor relationship was clearly, you know, fundamental in your success and to where you are now.
And so you’re in Los Angeles, and which, as everybody knows, is a fiercely competitive market. But talk to us about how you have niched down your practice and a little bit about your cultural background and how that influences the cases that are naturally drawn to you now.
Adrianos Facchetti:
So growing up as a kid, I saw how difficult it was for my parents to sort of, you know, get used to the culture here, to make a living.
Obviously, they were from different countries, didn’t speak the language initially, but they did a lot to sort of educate themselves and to sort of build this amazing life, which I’m really proud of them for doing that.
And, you know, a few years ago, unfortunately, three or four years ago, my mom had Alzheimer’s and passed away.
And so I decided, how do I stay connected to the culture? Like, how do I – there’s not a ton of Brazilians in California.
And so I thought, you know, maybe I can help the community. So I went around to all the different Brazilian lawyers and I said, who’s the guy or gal who does personal injuries?
Right. They all looked at me and said, it’s going to be you. And I said, that can’t be true.
Either there’s no market or there’s just nobody doing it. So I started asking other attorneys and they kept on saying the same thing.
And so I said, you know what, maybe I should get into this market, see if I can help this community.
And I started doing that. And so once I got into the community, I realized how much of a need there was for somebody who actually spoke Portuguese.
I’m a dual citizen Brazilian. I was raised in L.A. But I started really focusing on that segment of the population.
And it’s really paid dividends for me.
Lindsey:
That’s fantastic. So how does this inform your marketing efforts?
Adrianos Facchetti:
So how do you get connected in the community? So a couple of different ways that I get connected with the community is, like I said, I’ve met other pillars of the Portuguese community, Brazilian community.
I’ve met with other attorneys, gotten to… Create wonderful relationships with them. And honestly, I would do it for free, just because it keeps me connected to the culture.
But it’s sort of impacted how I do marketing in general, because I try to do marketing that’s something that’s fun for me.
I’ve learned that it’s not fun, you’re not going to do it. And even if you do do it, it’s not going to work, people are going to see right through it.
So if I’m having a meeting like this one, my thought is, what’s one interesting thing I can learn about the other person?
That’s kind of how I look at things. And so getting back to the marketing. So what I do is, I get involved in Facebook communities, where people are asking questions, they have problems.
Every once in a while, I’ll, you know, make comments on certain posts. It’s not, I’m not selling anything. I’m just trying to be helpful.
And I’m also getting a pulse on what’s important to them. Right? How do I get to sort of the mind of the person who I want to help?
And then eventually, like, you know, Every once in a while, once a week or so, I might do something that’s more educational with a call to action at the end of the post.
And so a couple of those things, not a lot of work, maybe like half an hour a week in these Facebook groups.
It’s just about identifying those groups and building relationships with the owners of those groups so that they’re comfortable that you’re a legitimate business owner that can actually help.
Because the real problem, Lindsey, is that there’s a lot of, unfortunately, non-attorneys who give or try to give advice to these vulnerable populations.
And I’ve seen it so many times, especially for immigration law, where they will take advantage of people. And the sad part is, and I’ve talked to so many people, they’ve gotten in an auto accident, Brazilians, and they get a serious injury, like a back injury where they needed a surgery.
And they just didn’t even know they had any legal rights. Number one, because they’re deathly afraid that if they make a claim…
And they just are not aware that this actually exists as a legal right because it doesn’t exist in their country.
So it’s about educating them. It’s about being involved in the community. And it’s about just doing something where I’m going to feel good at the end of the day.
Lindsey:
And I love that use of social media, getting involved in these groups. And so we talked to so many attorneys who are like, I want to start a social media campaign and put out these ads and do this and that.
And a lot of times, the intent is good, but it’s kind of missing the mark and not going to be generating any leads and really not going be making a connection with anybody because nobody goes to Facebook to see top 10 things not to do after a car accident.
But if somebody is going to one of these forums, and I see this a lot with the Apex Carry Moms group here.
Interest and specific questions. can keep a beat on what is important within a specific community, but also just be able to provide some helpful information and yeah, maybe, you know, get your name out there as a trusted resource.
So I think that that’s a really great way to use social media and you’re going about that in the way that I would absolutely recommend.
So you talked a little bit about this educational component where these people, these communities might not understand that they have protected rights, even if they’re not citizens and they’re coming from backgrounds where this isn’t something that they’re super familiar with.
What are some of the other unique challenges that Brazilian Portuguese immigrants face when dealing with personal injury cases here in the United States?
Adrianos Facchetti:
So a lot of them, like I said, I think the key… One is that they don’t have an understanding of how the legal process works at all.
In their country, what they would say is that the legal process is broken and doesn’t work at all. And so for them, it’s usually like, do you know a guy who can handle this or do something?
And it’s not always maybe the most appropriate way to do things. And so there’s not a lot of trust.
So one of the challenges that I have is sort of gaining that trust so that they can trust me to be able to actually help them and not mistreat them.
The other thing, too, that is a challenge culturally is they believe that there’s always going to be some sort of hidden charge, like someone’s going to charge them for something.
And believe it or not, sometimes people, there’s sort of that adage that if it’s, you know, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
And so when I say, you know, there’s no upfront charge, it’s a contingency fee, you would think that it would lower their sense of risk, but sometimes they see that as being suspicious.
And so for me, it’s just. So generally, a lot of education. Also, the big challenge, too, is that they don’t have a lot of personal networks here.
So let’s say, for example, you were to have a surgery or get an issue or some sort of injury.
You probably have family or friends here in your community who can actually help you for a couple of days while you’re in bed recovering from a procedure.
But they don’t have personal networks. And so what do you do if you’re driving Uber all day to make money and you’ve got to drive?
And if you don’t drive, you don’t make money. So that’s one of the big issues that I see is, number one, education.
And number two, the lack of these personal networks that can help them get the adequate medical care that they need.
And so we do certain things in our office to give them that opportunity. We’ll even send someone to go help them out sometimes on high-value cases.
They can go and get a nurse for a day or two, only in the highest-value cases, but we can do that in some cases.
And we’ll We’re always looking for ways to give this unreasonable client service, which is one thing that I think distinguishes our firm from others.
Lindsey:
And that’s amazing that you are able to offer that support, especially for those who are severely injured and really need the most help getting back on their feet or getting the medical care that you need.
And do you find any issues during the legal process itself with insurance companies or any language barrier issues when it comes to helping this community?
Adrianos Facchetti:
Yeah, there’s definitely, since there’s probably only about 200,000 or 300,000 Brazilians in California, believe it or not, sometimes we have just sort of practical issues in terms of translation.
So if I’ve got to get a, you know, person to translate for a deposition, that can be a little bit challenging.
If I need a recorded statement, which we do occasionally, that can be a challenge to find that. And a person who actually speaks Portuguese and the dialect and version of Portuguese, I would do it myself, but I’m not certified and it’s probably not a good idea to do it.
But that is a challenge. I mean, it is like, I think the eighth most popular language in the world.
And so it shouldn’t be that hard. But there are certain challenges with it. Of course, if you go to trial, that’s a whole nother interesting set of issues.
But it’s not a big deal. I mean, California, it’s a very diverse state. And so we have a lot of huge Hispanic population.
I also help that population as well. So Spanish and Portuguese. We have ways to address all these issues. You know, I think the biggest challenge is we don’t have enough medical providers that can speak the language.
But the interesting thing is with technology and AI, some of my providers have iPads. And so they’ll bring the iPad into the room.
And I only work with providers that can actually do this. And they’ll have the iPad in there and it’s simultaneous translation.
So if it’s necessary, we can do that to use technology. We try to use everything at our disposal to create like a really good experience for our clients.
Lindsey:
That’s fantastic. And having that technology now, especially within the last three to five years, has been an absolute game changer for attorneys as well as for the clients, medical providers, and just helping to streamline that process.
So I’m so glad that that’s in place and being used. So let’s talk about cases involving undocumented clients. What should they know about their rights in terms of a personal injury situation?
I know you brought up the fact that there’s a lot of nervousness about filing a claim if somebody isn’t a U.S.
citizen, especially, or if they’re undocumented or any of these issues.
Adrianos Facchetti:
What, let’s look at Let’s dive into that a little bit. So 100%, one of the biggest concerns for people who are immigrants, especially those who don’t have papers or undocumented, is they’re worried that either they’re going to get caught or something if they make their – assert their legal claims in a personal injury case.
And it absolutely is not the case. It will not happen. In fact, there was a law that changed in California where if you made a – typically, the rule was if you made a loss of earnings claim, the defense counsel would force you to get information about their sort of status.
And now there’s a new evidence code which says it’s irrelevant and lasts, I think, a few years. So there have been additional protections in California, but I get it.
The sort of national environment, whatever your politics, there is more of a sense of fear that there will be some sort of retribution.
And I can tell and assure clients every single day that it will not affect your ongoing immigration status whatsoever.
And the federal government’s not going to pop out of the bushes. If you are making a claim, it’s just not going to happen.
The only thing you’re doing by not making a claim is lining the pockets of the insurance companies.
Lindsey:
Yes, and we definitely don’t need to see that happening any more than it already is. Exactly. So let’s just give me a few more seconds and talk to me about what advice you would give to other lawyers who are considering a culturally focused niche practice.
Adrianos Facchetti:
So number one, has to be authentic to you, has to be real. And I think number two, has to be something you really love and enjoy.
At the end of the day, it is work. And for me, look, I’m the type of guy that says TGIM, not TGIF.
And then my team, it’s a hard eye roll, but I’m excited on Sunday night to get into work. And I know not everybody’s like that, but if you’re trying to get into a new niche, I think whether that’s a new practice.
Area of law, or it’s helping a specific group. could be people who like to play pickleball, whatever. I would start with that first.
What do you love doing? What do you do that doesn’t feel like work? Maybe you’re a gamer. So get into a Facebook group.
So one, do what you love doing anyway and would do for free. And then get into groups there because it won’t feel like marketing.
It’ll feel like play, like fun. And so I think that’s the biggest piece of advice. Don’t think first, how do I make money?
Think about how can I get involved in a group that I already like being involved in and doing? Could be a church, whatever it is.
And then how can I max out and just go a thousand percent in that and spend most of my time doing that?
And then the money will come. It’ll take a while, but it’ll absolutely work. And then hopefully you’ll be a TGIM person like me.
Lindsey:
And if you’re going to be spending eight, 10, 12. 12 plus hours a day working, you may as well enjoy it.
Clearly, as attorneys and in this profession, we sacrifice a lot of our time and that we need to make sure that we are benefiting both financially, but also just in terms of life enjoyment out of the time that we’re putting in.
So I think that’s a great piece of advice is find a niche that you’re passionate about, that’s authentic to you, that you enjoy, that you don’t mind putting a thousand percent in.
Adrianos Facchetti:
Right? And it’s common sense, right? But for most people, we forget. We’re so busy. We’re worried about helping our teammates out, helping our family members out, our kids.
And then we think, okay, how do make more money this year? And I think if you focus on what’s going to make you happy or at least what you – at a minimum, what you can tolerate, that’s going be much better than saying, you know what?
I’ve got to go to the local bar association and meet Sam and hand out five business cards and try to get a few more cases from him.
That’s the absolute Wrong way. that’s how I started. But I had to learn everything the hard way because just that’s the way it is.
Lindsey:
And well, we appreciate the lessons that you have shared with us so that we are not wasting time learning things the hard way.
Adrianos Facchetti:
So thank you so much, Adrianos. I really appreciate you coming on the show and talking to us today. Yeah.
Thanks so much.
Personal Injury Attorney Josh Branch of The Law Offices of Joshua W. Branch joins us for Personal Injury Marketing Minute podcast #107 to discuss getting into the field to make a difference.
Josh is driven to a life of service through the practice of personal injury law.
Visit Josh online here: https://www.thegeorgiainjuryattorney.com/.
Visit Extra Special People, Inc here: https://www.cityofwatkinsville.com/185/ESP.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield.
Even though there are some bad players in the personal injury world who are more interested in profit than people, most personal injury lawyers get into the field because they want to make a difference.
Josh Branch of Josh Branch Law in Georgia is one such lawyer who is driven to a life of service through the practice of personal injury law.
Thank you so much for joining us today, Josh.
Josh Branch:
Thank you for having me, Lindsey.
Lindsey:
Well, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your practice.
Josh Branch:
A little bit about myself, we have a current operation or base. In Athens, Georgia, that’s the primary location, the law office of Joshua Branch.
We also have satellite offices in Atlanta and on the Georgia coast where you accept cases throughout Georgia and in the Florida accident, licensed to practice in Florida as well.
About me, that’s as far as wide of a question as we can go. It’s the worst question I could possibly ask.
No, no, no, it’s fine. It’s absolutely fine. To kind of piggyback on the topic, I have been around law since the time I was 15 or 16.
My church league basketball coach was a lawyer, and he said, you argue so much. You’re going to become a lawyer.
And everybody else in my family and friends said the same thing. I think I was a little bit apprehensive of doing what everybody else already foretold as my future.
But actually, they were right. And so I’m very blessed to be in this position and helping others.
Lindsey:
I mean, to be able to… To argue, you know, when you’re a kid, it can drive everybody else crazy.
But if you can harness that energy for good and put it to the benefit of others, then that turns into a superpower.
I’ll agree. So, I mean, clearly you loved to argue when you were a kid and you went down this path.
But why did you want to become a personal injury lawyer at the end of your educational career?
Josh Branch:
It’s a great question. Once I finally decided I did want to go to law school, I initially thought I wanted to go into environmental law.
That was my pursuit when I entered into law school. However, as much as I got into it, more I realized that I’m not, and this is most things about me, I’m not on the extreme on either side.
So in environmental law, I didn’t see myself working for a large oil company. And also at same time, I didn’t see myself, you know, working for Greenpeace.
They both have places in this world. And, you I didn’t feel my heart for myself one way or the other.
I worked for an entertainment lawyer. I was in law school. It great. We had incredible experiences. I helped put on a seminar at the Russian Consulate in Manhattan in New York.
Great experience. Got to meet a lot of A&R reps and reps from different bands and things of that sort.
But when it really came down to tracking towards what I want to do the rest of my life, there is a proverbial David versus Goliath day in, day out when you deal with injured victims dealing with insurance companies.
And even though insurance companies and their complete wherewithal and financial backing of which no individual really has outside of a few on the top of the Forbes list, they need help.
And the course interest companies. We’ve done a really good job of influencing politicians to make sure that they’re able to continue along the lines of massive profits.
And I’m all for capitalism, but I’m also for fairness. And I bring that up because if you go into a trial where you see someone has caused a car wreck, it’s the easiest example.
Well, 99.9% of the time, the insurance company behind the individual is the one who’s calling the shots. Even though the style of case might be Jane Doe versus John Smith, it’s John Smith’s insurance company that’s going ahead and dictating the terms or trying to dictate the terms.
And so knowing this behind the scenes, David and Goliath battle is always going on and you need, these people need help.
And so I found myself really gravitating towards that. And the more I do it, the more I just feel so grateful for the opportunity to help these people because I’ve got a wonderful team.
you. you. So probably the best team I’ve had ever. And I’ve been practicing for 20 years, as evidenced by the great starting to come in a little bit here and there.
But at the same time, wonderful team and we’ll make a difference in people’s lives. And it really is gratifying, even if it does have a tendency to take a toll at times.
Lindsey:
Well, and I think it goes back to a point that you made a little bit earlier where you’re not, you know, an extreme person.
Like you’re not on the Greenpeace side. You’re not on the big oil company side. And when it comes to personal injury, anybody could be injured.
And so it doesn’t cater to, you know, one demographic or another, one extreme or another. It really opens itself up to help anybody and everybody who could land themselves in a bad situation and where the outcome of their lives and their ability to get back on their feet is dictated by the giant insurance company.
And so to have an advocate step in is a powerful force. And I think that that is a great.
Great role to serve in. And so kind of getting back to the topic of the podcast here, what ways do you see a life as a personal injury lawyer as a form of public service?
Josh Branch:
Great question, Lindsey. And the way I look at it is the fact that everybody who comes to our doors at the office or reaches out to us, they’re in dire help.
They really are. We’re very selective with the cases we take, and we’re very blessed to have people who need our help in these situations.
And it truly feels like a public service in the fact that we’ve seen so many people go through, hopefully, what’s the roughest time of their lives.
I’m thinking of one client in the past. He was a younger gentleman and younger as in mid-20s. He was involved in a horrible, horrible car crash.
And we actually, a former judge out of Atlanta, He referred us to the case, and before I even had a chance to meet him, he had sent pictures, and this is kind of a graphic description, but he was in the hospital bed, and at that time, around the lower part of his ribcage towards the upper abdomen, there was a laceration so large that it just opened up his stomach to where it was completely open, and he was conscious.
This is how they had to hold him for a while. His girlfriend’s by his side. He mentally had told me at times that he was thinking he was going to die, and all of these thoughts and these emotions were flooding through this young man’s head, and bear in mind, he did nothing wrong, you know?
He did nothing wrong, and so we were able to ensure that he’s gotten the medical treatment he needed and saw the doctors he needed, and as time progressed, you know, he literally
He figuratively got back on his feet again, and it’s the most wonderful thing to see that. And thankfully, the insurance coverage that was available for his case was sufficient in terms of us being able to really procure incredible resolution for him that has absolutely changed his life.
He now has what he calls his dream home. He was able to buy a vehicle for his mother and for himself and has money set up to reach through annuities and things of that sort.
And he is just the happiest, lucky fellow in the world, and he’ll reach out at times. He still has my personal cell phone.
He’ll reach out at times, and it’s encouraging to hear that he’s doing so well. And it’s also just so nice to know that I was at least some piece of his life puzzle in helping guiding him through.
you. And so it means a lot. And I think for everybody, I can speak for everybody on the team, that it means a lot to all of us to be able to see that, to see that when somebody comes to us in their worst moment, that we’re able to help them through, get them through.
And when they’re on the other side, they can just focus on the future because better days are ahead.
Lindsey:
Well, and clearly it meant the world to him to not just have somebody advocating for the dollar signs. He knew that you guys were in this court and were supporting him both legally as well as making sure that he’s going to have the best financial outcome.
But also there’s a giant emotional component that personal injury lawyers, that good personal injury lawyers have to shoulder as they’re working through the process and just saying, have faith that we’re going to get to the other side of this.
You’re going to be able to financially recover. You’re going to be able to physically recover. And here I am to help you as, you know, we build a support team as you emotionally.
And having all of those pillars working together is truly the support that personal injury lawyers who are dedicated to a life of service can give someone as they are making that transition in this chapter of their lives.
And so I love hearing those stories where you’re able to support somebody throughout, and yeah, I hate the word journey, but throughout that journey.
And so clearly going through this and being that shoulder and providing the hours of support that you do and the work that you do can be, you know, emotionally supportive for them.
But I would imagine that being emotionally draining and taxing on you as a person.
Josh Branch:
So what are some of the emotional challenges that you face as an advocate for these victims? Great question, Lindsey.
And to even harken back just a moment to what you’re saying, I do believe that, you know, people have a visceral sensation about when people are full of it.
Or people actually have genuine concern. And I was told earlier in my career, you know, you get too emotionally invested in your clients.
And I totally disagree with that. I do look at my clients as like an extension of family. We want nothing but the best for them.
And it does in turn, it can have an emotionally draining aspect without a doubt. But I found personally, to decompress, I like going on long walks, preferably by a beach.
But I’m doing this from Athens, Georgia, and there’s no beaches very close. But there’s still some beautiful places to go for long walks, trying to work out, to spend time with family and friends.
I think it really does help that.
Lindsey:
And that is so important. And yeah, there’s the metaphor of you can’t pour from an empty cup. And so I always encourage the personal injury attorneys that I talk to and work with to make sure that they are taking care of themselves, because that’s the best way that they can support the clients that they are helping.
So I think that that’s, that’s great that you found a good outlet to emotionally recover as you are being an emotional support for everybody else that you’re, you’re serving.
And clearly with that comes some sacrifices too, that you have to make. So what are some of the things that you challenge, that you struggle with or have to be intentional about as you can come upon, you know, sacrifices in terms of time and energy that you’re devoting to your cases?
Josh Branch:
It makes me chuckle. You probably saw the smile on my face as you were asking that because I laugh because people always talk about striking nice work-life balance.
To me, that’s silly. There is no work-life balance. It’s work is at the top tier and the time that’s afforded afterwards is the time that’s afforded.
And it’s probably not healthy. But at the same time too, think as we were talking about, these people had decided to choose me and my firm.
And it’s absolutely not. And I’m never going to let that. And so whether that means working weekends, evenings, holidays, I’m okay with that.
You know, it’s, I do believe we all have grand designs and purpose on this earth. And I really feel like I’ve found my niche.
And so to be able to find your stride and helping people in doing these things, in the grand scheme, it seems like a very small sacrifice.
And, but yeah, the work-life balance, probably for most people looking at my life objectively, like, okay, you got to push back a little bit more.
And perhaps I will at some point in time, but it won’t be anytime soon.
Lindsey:
But right now is the time of your life where you really feel calling to dedicate yourself to helping others, you know, get back to their lives.
And that’s something that you truly, clearly feel very passionate about.
Josh Branch:
I do, if I could just jump in briefly. Yeah. don’t want to hijack the moment, but. Something about helping others that I was thinking about, that my grandmother used to always say, she was a very wise, wise person.
But when anybody in my family would feel distraught or a little bit down, she would sympathize. But she would also say, go find somebody that needs help and help them.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Josh Branch:
Get outside of your own head. Go help somebody. And one, think it’s great in the fact that it shifts you outside of the inward focus about helping others.
I think also, too, it shifts perspective on life and going back to the theme of this podcast about being able to serve others and being there for others.
I feel like all of us, I think, have that calling within us. think, honestly, all of us feel better when we do.
Lindsey:
I absolutely agree. And so are there any ways that you are engaged in external service through outreach or education or pro bono work for your practice?
Josh Branch:
We do. We do find ourselves doing pro bono cases every now and again. We are deeply engaged with one local, they’re growing, so thankfully they’re more than local now, an organization called Extra Special People, they go by ESP.
Anybody who’s listening to this, I hope you check them out. They are such an uplifting, outstanding organization that’s designed to help boys and girls and men and women who have special needs, and they provide them with community, and they provide them with activities, and they kind of give them a place to where they can call their own.
And I think also, too, over the years, we’ve been able to, the team and I have been able to actually help and go serve food and just serve in general in addition to other financial ideas in which we’ve been able to give.
And thanks for the gift to help out. But it’s just such an amazing thing to see back to people helping out people.
And so really, really enjoy doing that. But there’s such a myriad of organizations that need all of our help.
I mean, the top of my head, I’m thinking about Habitat and food banks and all these different things that, you know, really need all of our support because they’re taking care of those people in society who need help, you know.
Lindsey:
There are so many who are marginalized or just don’t have access to what they need in life to feel like they have, you know, a life.
And so I think that that’s great to be able to give back to the community, to be able to serve others.
And there is an emotional benefit that comes from that. And it is, you know, sustaining and it’s refueling to be able to give back to others.
So what advice do you have for other lawyers who might have a calling to serve more either within their…
Josh Branch:
If anyone was asking me, whether it’s a lawyer or otherwise, I would just say, take that first step. You know, go to that meeting for that organization.
You know, whether it’s opening up your mind, your ideas, your wallet, just do something. Take that first step. I think many of us, know myself included, have good intentions at times, and then life becomes life.
The next thing you know, those good intentions go on the back burner, and then the back burner becomes non-existent.
And so I think just being intentional, being purposeful, and just moving that forward. I think it’s like most things in life.
What’s the old cliche about, you know, showing up to half the babble or something like that? It’s, I really think that’s it with everything, right?
Just going ahead and getting your foot in the door or just, you know, making sure that have time to go attend a meeting, and listen to some group and see what you think you need to help.
Lindsey:
That’s great advice. Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your passion. And for all that you do for your clients and your community, it’s been a pleasure talking with you.
Josh Branch:
Well, I really do appreciate that, Lindsey. And again, I’m Josh Branch: with the Law Offices of Joshua W. Branch.
And if anybody wants to find us, they can find us at thegeorgianjuryattorney.com.
Lindsey:
Great. Thank you so much.
Josh Branch:
Thank you, Lindsey.
Personal Injury Attorney and Harley Davidson rider Paul Hernandez discusses what it means to be known in the Virginia motorcycle community. This is an excellent episode – if you are considering a niche, listen to every minute of this podcast at least once.
We have talked about the benefits of niching down a few times before. We primarily discuss niching as a strategy to attract more clients in saturated markets. It also makes sense when you are a member of a community that is regularly at risk for catastrophic injury. This is especially true in the motorcycle riding community.
Visit Attorney Paul Hernandez here: https://www.kalfusnachman.com/attorneys/paul-r-hernandez/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
https://youtu.be/lsrcoWmAhOY
Transcript:Welcome to the personal injury marketing minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world.
I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. We have talked about the benefits of niching down a few times before. We primarily discuss niching as a strategy to attract more clients in saturated markets.
It also makes sense when you’re a member of a community that is regularly at risk for catastrophic injury. This is especially true in the motorcycle riding community.
Now, every personal injury lawyer would love to have more motorcycle accident cases, but they seem impossible to regularly get through the door.
However, Paul Hernandez: of Calphus and Nackman has figured out how to become the motorcycle accident lawyer throughout Virginia. He joins us today to share his insight.
It’s on what works and what doesn’t. Thank you so much for joining us today, Paul.
Paul Hernandez:
Thank you. Appreciate you inviting me.
Lindsey:
Well, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your practice.
Paul Hernandez:
Yeah, so I’ve been practicing 30 years. It’s hard to believe that time flies so fast. We have a team of 16 lawyers here, and our staff’s about 90 people.
We started handling personal injury cases. We do personal injury. We do longshore and workers’ compensation, and we do social security disability.
But we have a special area, a special division at our firm, and that is our Law Tigers division. We’re a Law Tigers group.
We’re part of that group. But I have a specific group of people who handle all of our motorcycle crashes, and it’s a select team of people.
So if it’s an investigator, if it’s a paralegal, if it’s a lawyer, if it’s a negotiator, it doesn’t matter.
Everybody rides. Everybody’s in the community. Everybody supports the community. So, you know, what is our firm? We do handle cases.
I’m licensed in North Carolina and Virginia, and we have people licensed in Maryland and D.C. and things of that nature.
But, you know, our big part is Virginia. And by handling motorcycle cases, you know, we’ve really become experts and specialists in that field.
And everybody can’t do that. But I know we’re going to talk about that in a little while. But that’s a little bit about who Calpus Enactment is.
The firm has been around for over 45 years. So it’s a great ride, to be honest with you. I’ll be honest with you.
I love coming to work every single day.
Lindsey:
And that’s the best job to have, you know, regardless of what industry you work in, regardless of what sector, legal sector you work in.
If you are loving what you do, then you are going to be serving your clients in absolutely the best capacity.
And this is clearly a passion for you because you’re a part of the motorcycle community.
Paul Hernandez:
So the big question, the most important question. Of course, what kind of bike do you ride? And how long have you been riding?
Right. So it’s funny. said, what type of bike do you ride? What type of bike do you like to ride?
Right? So I have been riding. Oh, I know I hate to say this word, but I’ve been riding for over 40 years.
Started off on, you know, actually, I guess if you really want to go back, it started off on minibikes.
And minibike, I don’t see them anymore, to be honest with It’s just basically a lawnmower mower on a little metal, small thing, a little tire.
Lindsey:
Sounds really safe.
Paul Hernandez:
Yeah. Well, it started there. It’s funny. We would, in the wintertime, we would, of course, drag people behind it while you’re on a boogie board, you know, in the snow and whatever, just doing kids stuff, you know.
again, the type of stuff we did when we were kids, I’m surprised I’m still here. But, so, started at minibikes, went to dirt bikes, where we would, you know, the whole neighborhood would have dirt bikes.
bikes, they’re bikes, And we’d be racing around on the streets, in the yards, in the fields and stuff. And then once I became old enough to get a driver’s license, immediately got my motorcycle endorsement and started riding road bikes and sport bikes.
So currently, I’m riding a Harley-Davidson Road Glide CVO, which I love. It’s a huge bike. It’s a big bike.
I’m not the biggest guy. I’m not the tallest guy. But I love that bike. I’ve had other Harley-Davidson’s, you know, sport glides, 883s, 1200s.
Now, the smaller bikes are funner, I’ll tell you. They’re easier to maneuver. But the big bikes, you feel a lot of, and I hope we can get into this, about why we ride.
But you feel this sense of freedom. And it’s just a big bike. And you just feel, I’ll be honest with you, you feel empowered.
So that’s what I’m riding now. I love it. I’m. I’ve always liked those bikes, but I always thought they were too big.
And I’m like, no, no. Once you’ve done it and rode them, it just feels great. Now, I’ll be honest with you.
I like to ride sport bikes every once in a while. Those are those ones you see going very quickly down the interstate because they’re just so hyper.
They’re so nimble, as nimble as you could be. But in any event, I’m a road, you know, I’m getting older.
So I’m a road type guy, road bike guy. So that’s what we’re doing right now.
Lindsey:
Well, that’s fantastic. And clearly this is something that’s passionate for, that you’re very passionate about, that you have been doing for a very long time.
You know the ins and outs, you know your bikes, you know the reasons of the why that, you know, motorcyclists like to be out there riding and you’re part of that community.
So it would seem like it would be an obvious fit that an injured rider would choose to work with another member of their community.
But with so many other lawyers out there who are out They’re writing. Why do motorcycle riders choose to work with you?
Paul Hernandez:
Yeah, so I appreciate you bringing that up because that’s very important. Why do certain people hire certain firms? Now, riders hire us because they know us.
They know law tigers, number one. They know us because I’ll be honest with you, we’re big advertisers. We’ve been doing it ever since it began.
So we’re ubiquitous. They know us. But when it comes to a motorcycle rider, and it depends on the type of bike you ride, but certainly the road bike community, they know law tigers.
Why, though? Why do they know us? Because we are in the community. We are at every dealership. We’re at every repair facility.
We’re friends with different motorcycle clubs, and we support the community. What does that mean? What do mean by support the community?
Number one, we’re there helping and teaching and sponsoring. Training for new motorcycle riders and for experienced motorcycle riders. So we’re in the shops, okay?
We co-brand with everybody I just told you about, the dealers and the repair facilities and the motorcycle clubs, to support the community.
When we have races, when we have, you know, shows, motorcycle shows, whatever we’re doing, we’re there sponsoring things and helping people.
But why? Number one, because we love it, okay? It is different. So, you know, I ask people, it’s funny because I’ll ask somebody, hey, do you ever heard of Long Tigers?
And they’ll go, no idea. And I go, do you ride a motorcycle? And they go, no. I go, done, right?
It’s okay. No big deal. You don’t need to know. But you ask a rider and they go, oh, yeah, I’m familiar because they’re always out there.
They’re always out there. You know, we go and do shop talks quite frequently. And again, I’ll be honest with you, it takes a lot of our time, right?
We’ll have lawyers go to these different facilities, these different dealerships and clubs to talk about things that affect us, whether it’s laws that help us, laws that hurt us, our ability to change the laws.
And most importantly, and I will tell you this, this is 100% true, safety, safety. I am a safety freak.
Yes, drive, I guess I ride a cool bike, but I’ll be honest with you, it’s a beautiful pearl white.
Why? I want to be seen. And I’m wearing reflective day glow gear in the day and reflective gear at night because at the end of the day, I want to be seen.
Yeah, everybody wants to be cool on their bike, but I’d rather be cool and seen than cool and not seen and have something happen.
So back to the issue of why, number one, they know us and they know we support the community. Now, that’s a very interesting type of marketing.
It’s literally considered affinity marketing. Okay, maybe somebody you know. Okay, Markets that they support cancer research. Why? Because maybe they or their spouse were afflicted with cancer, so they understand.
so what happens? Other people who respect that firm, you know, supports that cause, then they like them, right? You like riding motorcycles.
I like riding motorcycles. I like you, okay? And that whole connection of type of marketing or advertising, that is the best way to do it, right?
Because if you do it, I do it, we like each other. So that’s the kicker. Now, then there’s a second half to that.
And the second half to that is riders do like to hire people who ride. And it also is in that same vein of affinity, but it’s also in the, you have walked in my shoes.
You have walked in my shoes. And you understand the reasons why we do specific. So, you know, and there’s, I’ll give you one more reason why they call us.
Because you did a great job, and they’re referring their friends and family. You know, that’s, we all know referral cases that come to you on referral, whether it’s from other lawyers or prior clients, they’re the best cases, right?
They don’t care about advertising or marketing or anything of that nature. They say, you know what, you need to go to Calphys and Ackman because they did XYZ and did, you know, PDQ.
So those are the three things. They know us because we’re out there everywhere and supporting the community. They’re hiring us because we’re one of them.
And the third reason is because you did a great job for them. They’re referring you to their friends and family.
And, you know, these people, by the way, are, they’re referring cases, not just motorcycle cases. They’re referring motor vehicle cases.
They’re referring slip and fall cases, dog bite or whatever. So, you know. Once you get in and you do a great job for somebody, know, that’s, and again, that’s the best way to, you know, show that you did a great job is that they’re referring you people.
Lindsey:
Well, I think all of this builds into kind of the next question that I have for you, which is the cases themselves, because everybody in this community has that compassion and they have the reasons that they do the things that they do.
And nobody’s going to understand that like somebody who is walking in their shoes, who’s riding on the same roads in the same ways.
And with that understanding, how would you categorize motorcycle accidents as being different from other types of personal injury cases?
Paul Hernandez:
Yeah, so there’s no question they’re different in regards to injuries. The injuries are much more significant. I mean, riding a bike, yes, you have a helmet on in those states that require a helmet.
But you don’t have airbags. You don’t have that nice cushion. You don’t have seatbelts. You’re not surrounded by steel.
So when an incident occurs, many times you’re thrown from the bike, and it’s you against every object that’s out there, whether it be the motor vehicle that turned left in front of you, whether it be the road that you’re now sliding down and getting road rash.
So the injuries are much more significant. And let me tell you one other thing, which you always see in these motorcycle cases.
Usually the emergency room bill is extremely high. Why? Because emergency rooms, look, they’re physicians. It’s common sense. Emergency room doctors look at it and say, okay, motorcycle crash, or even pedestrian crash.
They understand there’s not that support and that cushy things around the individual to protect them from serious injury. So there’s always suspect.
They’re always suspect of serious internal injuries. So they are going to. Light your client up. You’re getting CT scans.
You’re getting MRIs. You’re getting ultrasounds. You’re getting everything in the entire world from top to bottom. So you have a lot of high medical bills in motorcycle cases.
So number one, they’re different because the injuries are going to be high. Number two, they’re different because most, this is so crazy when you think about it, most riders take their injuries as secondary.
They are more concerned about their bike than they are their injuries. And it’s crazy because the bike is a material thing.
We can get you another bike. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That was a custom bike. That was a bike that I’ve spent the last five years customizing the way I wanted it, and now it’s banged up.
And what’s terrible about that part of it is even in the smallest of accidents with a motorcycle. Many, many, many, many times the bike is going to be considered totaled because a simple bend or small fracture of anything in the frame of the bike, it’s not safe at that point in time.
And it costs way too much money to remove all the parts, put it on a new frame. They’re like, no, you’re getting another bike, right?
And you start from scratch. Is it good? Yeah, is it good? Is it not good? Yeah. All right. So, you know, so number one, injuries are different.
Number two, the bizarre part is they care about their bike more. And then, you know, they’re different because you have to understand why people who ride motorcycles do what they do in a situation where there’s an emergency, in a situation where there’s a crash.
People would like to think, okay, they’re smaller. Okay, so they stop faster than cars. That’s not true. That’s not true.
Bikes do not stop faster than cars. Okay, well, you’re small. So you’re more nimble than a car. Not really, because I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a motorcycle.
We don’t have steering wheels. We have handlebars. And to turn on a bike, you lean. You lean and turn your handlebars, and we’re not as limbo.
We can’t just spin our handlebars around and go back the other direction. It doesn’t work that way. So then we have to think, okay, then the difference is, you may think, why didn’t that motorcycle just stop?
Okay, well, because one, you couldn’t. Two, we’re trained differently. Motorcycle training is totally different than automobile lessons or learning how to drive an automobile, because we have been taught, okay, at a certain speed, don’t stop.
Avoid. Okay, avoid. Try to go around that hazard as opposed to trying to stop, because you will not be able to stop.
Another way is, listen, you know, we learn, and you’ve got to understand why, but we learn to lay a bike down.
Why don’t you lay the bike down? Why? Because we’ll have a nice bumper on the front. And when we hit something, we are now being flown.
We’re getting catapulted, you know, down the roadway. So we learn to put something of mass in between us and the offending object.
So when that vehicle is turning left in front of you or pulling out of a parking lot because they didn’t see us, which is the biggest joke, we are taught to lay the bike down and put that in between us and the offending object in an effort to put something between us so we don’t get hurt as bad.
But so, you know, we many times, many times we we try to avoid the harm, OK, as opposed to running into it.
So in any event, so they’re definitely different in those regards. And so when you really think about it, if you haven’t ridden again, we’re going to talk about this because you don’t have to ride to get these types of cases.
But on the mental side of things. You understand why the person riding the bike did what they did because you ride as well.
And you’ve been down that road where somebody has come into your lane, okay, and they didn’t see you. You’ve been there when the landscapers are blowing grass, okay, cut grass and pine straw into the roadway.
Now, most people wouldn’t think anything of that, but for a motorcyclist, that is essentially putting ice on the road because it’s an extremely slippery substance, and we only have two wheels.
We have two wheels. You know, one other thing I want to say because this is so true, I just saw this happen in a crash that happened in front of me a couple weeks ago.
This car got hit, and it spun around on its axis, right? It just spun. We don’t spin. We don’t spin.
If we’re spinning, we are in trouble, right? We’re the ones spinning down the roadway. So those are some of the main reasons why they’re different.
Lindsey:
And those are some substantial differences. And, I mean, clearly, So motorcycles operate very differently than cars do. And there’s a different mentality of the rider when it comes to what their priority is in getting repaired.
Clearly, they want to get their bike repaired. And if this is a large part of their lives, which for many riders it is, their focus is getting back on the bike and getting back onto the road again.
And I would imagine that there are probably some challenges in getting your clients to attend all of their doctor’s office visits or doing the right procedural things and taking time off of riding as that might impact their case.
Paul Hernandez:
How do you keep riders doing the right thing in terms of going to their doctor’s appointments and staying safe and making good decisions while you’re still navigating the complexities of their case?
Well, you know, you said something at the beginning of that question in regards to that. And I want people to understand something about motorcycle riders.
Motorcycle riders don’t really use a motorcycle. Motorcycle, for transportation. We take a car, we take a bus, whatever we’re doing, we’re using it to get to work, to get to the store, to go to a class, whatever.
We’re using that as transportation. Most motorcycle riding is not for transportation. You’re going, what are you talking about? No, no.
Most motorcycle riding is for fun. So we literally, the community says, we ride to burn gas. That’s it. That’s it.
Now, are there some people who are using it for transportation? Yes. When the weather gets nice, yes. I mean, we’re in a big military community.
Our main office is in North Virginia, and we have the largest Navy base in the entire world. And we do have a lot of military riders who use that bike for transportation.
And I get that part. But most of us are not doing it. And that’s another thing to understand why we do what we do.
We’re just out here having a good time, whether it’s a ride for a charity, whether it’s a, oh, honey.
You need something from the store? I’ll get it, right? And I want to ride my motorcycle up to the store just to pick something up for her.
Again, we ride to burn gas. But your question was, and it’s very important, you were talking about most of our riders who are victims of these crashes, of course, they care about their bike first, but they also don’t look at their injuries as being that important.
And why? Because I’ll be honest with you, most of our riders, most of our injured riders are male, okay?
Well, want to say we’re not the brightest guys in the world, okay? I mean, look, I mean, all men are kind of the same.
And what do I mean by that? Many guys will just say, hey, you know what? I’m going to tough it out.
I’m going to rub some dirt on it, and I’m going back to work. It’s not until they find out that a month later, this didn’t stop hurting.
You know, maybe I need to get this looked at. And it’s, It is something – and if you’re handling personal injury cases, you do understand that you need to set that case up from the beginning because any gaps in treatment is the kryptonite to a case, especially if it happens at the beginning of the case.
So if you have your rough-and-tumble guy who says, you know, I just went back to work. I said, well, didn’t you have these – yeah, I still went to work.
I mean I had to work. I mean I got to put food on the table, right? And did you get any treatment?
No. And you have to have that sit down with him and explain. Let me explain something to you. Yes, you were hurt.
Yes, we’re taking care of your bike. And the number one – and I tell this to every single one of them, look, don’t even look at the end.
Look at I want you to get the best medical treatment to be healed because you may only have one opportunity for justice, okay?
And you certainly only have one time you’re walking on this earth in regards to who you are today. So we want to make sure you get the appropriate medical care and the best medical care.
You are entitled to the best medical Now, you don’t have to go to a clinic. You should be able to go to whatever hospital you need to go to get whatever your treatment.
So we literally have a sit down. You know, now it’s all through Zoom or through telephone because it’s very hard to get everybody in their office.
But with your paralegal, with your attorney, with your negotiator, investigator, we sit there. One, of course, we talk, you know, mess for a little while.
talk motorcycles because we love talking motorcycles. But then we explain the importance of making sure you get the appropriate medical care.
Number one, because we want you to get better. We want you to be able to provide for you and your family and things of that nature for the rest of your life.
And number two, listen, as a personal injury attorney, my job is to get you the maximum compensation for your injuries.
And it’s all foreign to them. They don’t understand how it works. They don’t understand why. But part of that and the number one thing is, is do you have the appropriate medical care?
Had all of your injuries been identified? Did you did you get a surgery? OK, let’s assume you got the surgery.
Did you get an estimate for the next surgery you’re going to have? What do mean the next surgery? Well, you’ve had spinal surgery, and you’re going to have adjacent segment syndrome in 10 years from now.
Or you had an injury to your knee, and they did a surgery on your knee. Well, you’re going to have arthritis where you’re going to need a partial knee or a knee replacement.
Did you get that other, you know, that care or that estimate of care, that life care plan for that individual?
And again, you talk this stuff to the guy who’s riding a bike, you know, riding a motorcycle, and they’re like, well, what are you talking about?
And what do I say? Okay, you do what you do, okay? You get better, and then I’m going to do your case, okay?
But you definitely need to make sure to spend time because they don’t understand. They just think you just rub dirt on it, and those are the cards that you were dealt, and that’s what you do.
Lindsey:
Well, that’s such a challenging misconception to try to communicate through. And really, you’re coming from two very different perspectives, even though you understand where they’re coming.
You need to get them on the same page as you are. And when you have those types of misconceptions, it clearly leaves your case open to some jeopardy there.
But those aren’t the only misconceptions that you have to deal with. What misconceptions or stereotypes from the other side are out there regarding writers that you have to combat?
Paul Hernandez:
Well, so the first one, I appreciate you bringing it up because there are no questions. I’m just going to call it motorcycle bias.
And it starts with people who don’t ride. Whether the officer who investigated your case, if he or she is not a rider, they’re not going to ride that.
They’re going to think you did something wrong. They’re going to mark it up. And many people think the mere fact that you’re on a motorcycle is that you must be negligent in some way, fashion, or form.
That’s a death trap. That’s this. And the answer is, I don’t think so. That’s not how it works. Number one, let me ask you a question.
I’m going to get back to it, but let me ask you a question. Do you ride a bike?
Lindsey:
Do I personally ride a bike?
Paul Hernandez:
A bicycle, a bicycle, a bicycle.
Lindsey:
I have, I do, I have a bicycle. I ride it occasionally, but I have ridden on motorcycles.
Paul Hernandez:
Yeah, but a bicycle, it’s fun to ride, right?
Lindsey:
Yes.
Paul Hernandez:
It isn’t life to enjoy. So think about it for a second. Take riding a bicycle and how fun it is and exciting.
You get a little bit of exercise, get the wind in your hair, get, you know, you get outside, you’re breathing fresh air.
Now you want to take it to the next level and that’s riding a motorcycle, okay? You’ve got power under your butt, at your wrist, at your hand.
You have the wind coming in. We call it wind therapy. I’m going for some wind therapy. What do you mean?
I’m going for a ride. Where are you going? Doesn’t matter. I’m going for a ride. But the point is, life is to be enjoyed.
If you’re allowed to go for a walk, great. We love going for a while. If you’re allowed to go for a bicycle ride, great.
I love that feeling. Maybe you have a scooter. Maybe you have an electric bike, whatever. Now take it to the next level that we do, and we’re on motorcycles and enjoy it.
We have every right to enjoy the same roadways that we paid for, just like you paid for, right? And so, yes, is it dangerous?
There’s no question it’s dangerous. Why? Because there are a lot of people driving cars and trucks who are not paying attention, okay, not giving full time and attention to the road.
And when a wreck does occur, yes, this is a mere fact that a car is going to win almost every single time against a motorcycle.
So people have this preconceived notion or misconception that the mere fact that you’re on a motorcycle, you must be negligent or at fault.
There are certain states that don’t have helmets, okay? Now, listen, I’m a lawyer. I don’t like laws. I don’t like the fact that it makes you wear a helmet.
Do I wear a every day? Yeah. Do I wear a large helmet with a full face protection? The answer is I do.
But if you choose not to do that and everybody else is doing what they’re supposed to be doing, everybody’s fine.
Nobody gets hurt. It’s not until somebody is not paying attention or giving full time and attention that the motorcyclist gets hurt.
So number one, the first misconception is there’s always bias against the cyclists thinking that they may be at fault.
Number two, they always think that we are speeding. Always think that we’re speeding. Especially a sport bike. Now, why are motorcycles loud?
Why are those things loud? Because they can be seen. That sounds kind of odd. You said loud. That’s hearing.
But they can be seen because I know there’s something there, right? And then you look and you see. Why are those sports?
A sport bike, meaning those sometimes called rice rockets, whatever you want to call it, the sound of those things, they sound like they’re going faster than they are.
Now, don’t get me wrong. There are some risk takers out there that go super fast. That is the smallest percentage of the people that ride bikes.
But they think that we are always going too fast. Because whenever there’s a wreck with a motorcycle and a car, the number one thing that is stated by the car driver is, I didn’t see them.
They must have been speeding. You got to understand how crazy that is. I didn’t see you. So you must have been speeding.
Well, you can’t testify to my speed. Why? Because you didn’t see me, right? You had no opportunity to observe and indicate that.
The real fact is we were there. How do we know that? Motorcycle was there and there to be seen because the crash happened, right?
We were already there. So number one, that negligence part that they think just because we’re on there, they always think that we’re speeding.
And those who ride road bikes, okay, you know what? A lot of them have beards, mustache, leather, okay, maybe heavier set.
And they think they’re rough and tumble guys and they may be intimidating, which is the biggest joke I’ve ever seen in my life.
Being in the community, those are the nicest people you have ever met in your entire life. Much nicer than the guy down the street driving the BMW who’s, you know, giving you the finger as you drive by because you’re not on a BMW or in a BMW.
The point is this, these guys who look all rough and tumble and drive and whatever, you know what? It’s their image.
They’re just doing an image, just like somebody else who has, you know, who doesn’t have those things. It’s their image.
But these people are, and you know what? You know what else? These people who are rough and tumble and intimidating, they have families.
They have children. They have jobs, just like you. Just like the vast majority of this, they have families and jobs.
And here’s the most important part. I told you a couple minutes ago, we ride to burn gas. If we have an excuse to ride, we’re going to take it.
Do you know what most of these people do? I guarantee you most of these people are more charitable than 90% of the people in the United States.
Why? Because these people do charity rides all the time. They are out there trying to drum up money for causes.
Kids with cancer, kids with leukemia, kids with whatever their condition is. Every single weekend, there are multiple charity rides.
And what do we do? We get on these rides and we support those events and we drum up money.
For those type of things. So, you know, it’s kind of bizarre to see, to watch people be intimidated by these people who are the, they’re like teddy bears.
They’re like kitty cats. You know, they’re the nicest people in the world. Are there some tough guys out there that are me?
I get it. Come on. There’s something in every bit. But the vast majority, as I’m listening right here, the motorcycles are going by right now.
I know you can’t hear it, but at my office, there’s like six or seven Harleys driving by right now.
But the point is, that’s a huge misconception. And they might be intimidating at first, but as you look at them, they also might be handing you a teddy bear because they’re on a teddy bear ride.
Lindsey:
And I love hearing those stories. And those are so true. I grew up in Denver and my mom owned a donut shop and we would bring donuts out to the Harley Davidson toy run every year and just have a booth giving away donuts to these writers who would show up.
By the hundreds in this outdoor mall called Aspen Grove, and they would all bring toys and teddy bears and tie them to the fronts of their bikes and then get in a big long line and drive down to the local children’s hospital.
And just the absolute nicest guys and a great community to be involved in. I always loved being a part of that event.
And obviously, this is a great group. They, you know, you have great people, big hearts. And, you know, the cases when you get them from a business perspective are also great to, you know, help serve the members of this community.
But how can lawyers attract consistent motorcycle accident cases if they aren’t a rider and aren’t a part of that community?
Paul Hernandez:
So I appreciate you bringing that up because there are lots. I get that. I get that hesitation all the time.
So let me, you, you started this podcast talking about niche, right? And niche. niche. And Now, there is no better niche marketing handling cases than motorcycle.
Look, some people say, oh, no, I handle catastrophic tractor-trailer accidents and commercial motor vehicle accidents. That’s not a niche.
That’s not a niche at all. Why? Because those victims of commercial motor vehicle crashes have nothing to do with each other.
Okay, they’re total strangers. The difference here is every single motorcycle injury, they do belong to a group. What’s that group?
It is riding motorcycles, period. It’s a club. It’s a group. Let me go on a slight tangent because one of my first vehicles in my life was a Jeep CJ7.
I know. I just dated myself again. But Jeep CJ7, if you’ve ever owned a Jeep, and there’s people listening to this podcast right now that says, I’m the Jeep when you
You own a Jeep and you drive down the street. Other people driving Jeeps, Jeepers, whatever you want to call them, other people driving Jeeps wave at you.
You don’t know them from Adam, and they’re waving at you. Why? Because you’re in that niche of ownership of a Jeep.
And we’re all friends. We’re all friends, right? I like you because you, I don’t know you from anybody, but I like you because you ride a Jeep, or excuse me, you drive a Jeep.
And similar in the motorcycle community, right? It’s that whole, it’s the best niche you could ever belong to, okay?
Now, you asked, how can people who don’t ride attract motorcycle cases? Now, I told you, I get people who go, yeah, I don’t even want to get involved in them.
Yeah, they’re great cases. I don’t want to get involved in them because I don’t want to act like a poser, right?
I don’t ride. And I, to be honest with you, I don’t understand their plight, know, their reasoning. People would want to put dollars in front of that, but when it gets down to it, and if you’re honest with yourself, and surprises me, there are so many people that are like, yeah, I’m not part of that community, so I’m not going to do it.
Well, I got to be honest with you. Even if you’re not a rider, you can help the community because riders at the end of the day, is that a binary thing that it says, if you’re not a rider, I’m not taking you.
I’m not going to go to you. No, but if you support the community in any way, shape, or form, they’re going to support you back.
It’s that affinity marketing. Again, I’m a big fan of Law Tigers. I love it to death. I’ve got it for Virginia, North Carolina, Washington, D.C.
I love it. I talk to other people at conferences. I go to a billion conferences a year, and I ask about what they do.
Oh, I get motorcycle cases, and I go, are you a rider? And they go, no. I go, how do you get them?
And they go, because I support the community. And we talk about it. How do you do that? You do what else I do.
What do we do? We’re going down to the local dealerships, whether it be a Harley dealership, Honda dealership, an Indian dealership, whatever it is.
And you do shop talk. Hey, I want to do a shop talk. Next time you have a group, I’m going to come in and talk about motorcycle insurance.
I’m going to go in and talk about what to do in a motorcycle accident. And if you go there and support those things and sponsor things, whether they’re races, whether they’re rides, the motorcycle community hears you, okay?
And they see you. And so if you’re a rider, is it better? Of course it is. mean, come on.
There’s no question. But you don’t have to be a rider. You can still earn the respect of the community if you respect the community, okay?
Take the time. But if you think you are going to get motorcycle cases by… Having a TV ad, we handle motorcycle cases.
It ain’t going to work. We’re going to put some social media on. We handle motorcycle cases. I’m sorry to tell you.
It’s not going to work. Okay, you get one case. You and I talked about this before because I talk to people and I say, how many motorcycle cases do have?
These are big TV advertisers. How many motorcycle cases do you have? Oh, I got lots of them. I’ll bet you $100 you ain’t got more than five.
I’ll bet you $100 right now. And they go back to their office and they come back and they go, uh, yeah, we don’t have five.
They think they do, but they don’t. But once you have been in the community and doing it, you find out you now have hundreds, hundreds of motorcycle cases.
Why? Because you are the go-to person for that. Can you get more motorcycle cases and you’re not a rider?
The answer is yes, but you got to do the time. You got to put in the effort. And again, if you’re not going to ride, that’s okay.
Show up to the. You know, we’re all hanging out. We were only riding the bike to the event, right?
I mean, we’re all, you know, chit-chatting. You can still support the community. So the number one way, support the community.
And don’t let not being a rider stop you from getting involved.
Lindsey:
Right. And you can be an ally. You can be an advocate. You can still show up and say, hey, I care about your rights.
I know that there are things that are working against you in the community. And I want to make sure that you’re having the best representation possible, that the roadways are as safe for you as possible, and that you can go out every day and do what you love to do because it is within your rights to do it.
And you can show up and be that advocate. And if you’re not on a bike still doing that, there is still a lot of value in there.
So those are a lot of the things that you can do right to build these communities. But are there any pitfalls to avoid when you’re trying to earn more motorcycle accident cases?
Paul Hernandez:
Well, you know, so the one thing we didn’t talk about, one of the complexities that we have in motorcycle cases.
Look, the injuries were there. So let me refresh people who handle personal injury cases. The three-legged stool that we need, we need liability, okay, the defendant at fault, and either you not at fault, or we’re in Virginia, which means if you are any bit at fault for an accident, that’s contributory negligence, it’s a complete bar.
But you need liability, you need damages, or you’re going to get damages, okay, in a motorcycle case. And then you need coverage, right, or an asset or deep pocket.
So one of the things that you also have to be is someone extremely knowledgeable in insurance law, okay? What do I mean by that?
You’ve got to know what type of policies do stack, if they stack in your state, how to get, because in our state, in many states, motorcycle policies are different than automobile policies.
Why? Because motor vehicle policies will tell you it’s a four-wheel vehicle. Motorcycle policies are three-wheel vehicles or two-wheel vehicles, okay?
And they’re different, okay? And they might apply differently. So then the other thing you want to do in regards to motorcycle crashes is, of course, I’m going to tell everybody this, and you’ve heard it from a million people, go to the scene to determine if there were other things involved that may have caused or contributed to the cause to the motorcycle, to the accident.
Because these cases usually are, they’re catastrophic cases. They’re worth millions of dollars, and you may have a minimum limit policy.
Okay, well, at the scene, maybe they had some construction going on. At the scene, maybe there was something where some signage should have been there or signage was removed.
Maybe somebody blew, you know, there’s debris on the road from somebody dropping debris on a vehicle. You don’t know these things until you go in.
And you have to do those extra things in regards to, again, they’re catastrophic cases, but you got to find that coverage.
The last thing, and I’m going to tell you something. I started doing this 25 years ago, and that is actually making the defendant, if there’s not enough coverage, write a check.
What? What do you mean write a check? They don’t have any money? Yeah. Write a check. Either I’m going to sue you, and I’m going to get a judgment against you, or I’m going to sue you, and you’re going to file for bankruptcy, or you’re going to write me a check.
I’m going to tell you what that does. It’s surprising how fast they find out that, oh my gosh, there’s more coverage for some reason.
I didn’t tell you about that umbrella policy we had. Oh, really? Yeah, it’s not until that defendant who caused that wreck has to actually come out of their own pocket that they miraculously find other coverage.
So those are one of the big pitfalls. You got to understand the insurance. But, you know, the… And there’s also one other thing we do.
We also make them all, the defendants, by the way, sign an affidavit that indicates that they were not driving for Uber or Lyft or DoorDash or Amazon, Amazon Flex, delivering pizza, whatever it is.
And you’ve to understand why. Those people who are doing it, they’re not driving their vehicle. They’re driving their own vehicle.
So if you get an accident report, you have no clue what they’re actually doing. Unless they were wearing a red hat that said DoorDash when it happened.
So those are some big ones there. But the other thing with a pitfall is don’t try to just resolve the case and get your money quick and do it for minimum limits and go on to the next case.
We don’t do that. We don’t do that. We make sure we’re going to file suit against that individual because, again, it’s 50% of the time you find out there’s additional coverage.
Or some other way to pay for it so, you know? Again, you have to do great work for your clients.
And look, you should be doing this for all your clients, right? Because you want that five-star Google review. You want to have these people referring their friends and family.
But remember, you do something right for the motorcycle community, they’re going to sing your praises. You do something wrong, and I hate to tell you guys, bad news travels much faster than good news.
So if you’re not doing everything you can possibly do, and listen, if every firm has this problem, communicate with your client.
Communicate with your client. Motorcycle victims, again, mostly they’re men. They’re not big talkers, and they don’t tell you everything.
Last thing I really want to say, because it’s especially true in Virginia, and actually other states as well. Now, remember to ask your clients about other motor vehicles that they have, right?
Because if you’re in a… In a stackable state, whether it’s a motorcycle, whether it’s a car, whether it’s an RV, I mean, literally, I gotta tell you this one quickly, because this is, I love this story.
I had a lady come walking in for a car accident case. I’m about to do a settlement conference with her.
Her case was worth lots and lots and lots of money. Unfortunately, there was only minimum limits, and we did everything we could.
All we could get is minimum limits. I walk out to do the settlement conference with her, and she comes in with a Harley Davidson sweatshirt on.
says, Harley Davidson, that bound both arms. Now, this is an auto case. And I said, ma’am, I said, are you a rider?
And she goes, my husband is. And I said, oh, okay. I said, and does your husband have a, did he have a motorcycle on the day of the accident?
She said, oh, yeah, 20 years he’s had a motorcycle. I said, great. Did he have insurance on it? Yes, he did.
I said, well, do you remember when I asked you, were there any other policies in the household, blah, blah, blah, blah?
And she goes, oh, yeah. I remember. Remember, Mr. Hernandez, but the motorcycle wasn’t involved in the wreck. And I went, hmm, okay.
So long and short, while she sat there, before we signed the release, we found out I could attach another policy, and we just doubled her recovery.
Okay, because you could stack that in Virginia in that regard. So my point is, you got to spend time with your clients.
You got to spend time with your clients, and especially motorcycle guys, because look, we’re guys, right? Most of them are guys, and we’re not as smart as you ladies out there.
Lindsey:
Well, and absolutely, you’ve got to work the case, and you’ve got to do right by your clients. As you said, the bad news is going to travel a lot faster than the good news does, and it is infinitely harder, if not impossible, to recover from doing bad work by your clients.
So, well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate all the insights that you have from the heart of this industry.
So thank you so much. Thank much for coming and being a guest today.
Paul Hernandez:
Appreciate it, Lindsey.
Chris Mullins, The Phone Sales Doctor, joins us today to discuss her upcoming PILMMA roundtable – Intake.
You can spend millions of dollars on marketing and have it be all for naught if your intake team is dropping the ball. Afterall, your intake sales specialists are the first warm introduction between your law firm and your prospective clients. They need to not only collect the right information, but they need to do so while showing empathy and compassion to people experiencing trauma.
On this episode, we talk about:
- What to look for when hiring intake sales professionals
- How to train intake sales professionals for each type of case
- Big mistakes law firms make with their intake specialists
Visit Chris Mullins here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrismullinsphonesalesdoctor/.
We’ll be at PILMMA Super Summit 2025: https://optimizemyfirm.com/pilmma-2025/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Catherine Register is the Director of Marketing at Fasig Brooks, a well-respected personal injury firm in Florida. She joins us for Personal Injury Marketing Minute 75 to tell us what a CMO does.
This is an excellent episode all personal injury attorneys should listen to!
Catherine discusses how she successfully approaches marketing, what is often kept in-house vs being outsourced, budgeting, marketing silos, referrals, measuring ROI, what’s been the most effective strategies for client acquisition, branding, collaboration, SEO, billboards and much more.
Visit Catherine online here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherineregister/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Karl Seelbach, a successful personal injury lawyer and the founder of Skribe.ai joins us today to discuss how to master delegation with people and technology.
Delegation can be a struggle. You know your practice and how you like things done – so it can be hard to relinquish control. Or you might have no clue how to do something and therefore have no clue what to look for as you hire someone to do it. Either way, delegation is an art.
Visit Skribe.ai online here: https://skribe.ai/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Roger Foisy & Aby Alameddine join us for Personal Injury Marketing Minute Podcast #73 to discuss “Private Footprint”, a permission-based tool designed to allow clients to grant personal injury attorneys permission to review and analyze client social media content.
Private Footprint flags (public) questionable content which can ruin good personal injury cases.
Visit Private Footprint online here: https://privatefootprint.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Attorney Rob Jarchi joins us for Personal Injury Podcast Minute #72 to provide advice for new lawyers. Rob discusses how he obtained his first job, mentorship, work-life balance, skills, communication, challenges, burnout, goals, books and advice!
Visit Rob online here: https://www.gbw.law/team/robert-d-jarchi/.
Or on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-jarchi-46240925.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Attorney Kenny Eliason joins us for Personal Injury Marketing Minute #71 to discuss the RECORD app. RECORD is for your clients, is HIPAA compliant, and integrates with CASEpeer, Clio, Filevine, MyCase, Smokeball, Zapier and more. RECORD helps you increase the value of existing cases.
Check out RECORD here: https://www.recordclient.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Attorney Andrew Trusevich joins us for Personal Injury Podcast Minute #70. He has had an impressive legal career in both labor and employment law and civil trial law. Andy joins us today to talk about taking those next steps into a fulfilling and purpose driven retirement.
In this podcast we will cover Andy’s career, satisfying your intellectual curiosity, hiking the Camino, and advice for other attorneys considering retirement.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Dan Ambrose joins us for Personal Injury Podcast Minute #69 and discusses Trial Lawyers University.
Complete with destination venue, all-star speaker lineup, truly fun activities, and amazing networking opportunities. Dan Ambrose, the founder of Trial Lawyer University is here to tell us all about the BEST conference for trial lawyers.
In 2024, TLU takes place in Vegas!
Visit the TLU Live Event site here: https://tlulive.com/.
TLU On Demand: https://tluondemand.com/.
Visit Dan online here: https://triallawyersuniversity.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Kassidy McVey and Tim Jakubowski from Nota by M&T Bank join us on the podcast today to discuss Nota.
Nota is a cloud platform which provides business banking solutions for attorneys managing small law firms.
This podcast covers why M&T created this great product, how Nota differs from other products on the market, what Nota replaces, how Nota increases efficiency, how M&T supports the product, product pricing, and more.
Get set up with Nota by M&T Bank today: https://www.trustnota.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Attorney Doug Burnetti joins us for Personal Injury Podcast Minute #67. Have you seen his billboards around central Florida?
In this podcast, Doug will go over what has changed in Personal Injury marketing over the last 30 years, how he expanded outside of traditional marketing, and what he does now to get cases.
Visit Attorney Doug Burnetti online here: https://www.burnetti.com/attorneys/doug-burnetti/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming shortly.
Attorney Steve Levin, founding partner at Levin and Perconti in Chicago joins us for episode 66 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute to discuss social media and kids.
In January 2024, the senate judiciary committee held a full committee hearing with testimony from some of the largest social media CEOs in an effort to examine Big Tech’s failures to protect kids online.
This podcast covers if social media harms children, addiction tactics, if parents can sue, possible reforms, pending lawsuits, and what you can do.
Find Attorney Steve Levin online here: https://www.levinperconti.com/attorneys/steven-m-levin/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Juvo Leads Co-Founder Ted DeBettencourt joins us for episode 65 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute to discuss AI vs human chatbots attorneys use on their websites in 2024.
In this podcast, we cover what Juvo is, which types of chat platforms are available for attorneys, the advantages of human operators, challenges with human operators, conversion rates of AI operators vs human, and more.
Find Juvo Leads online here: https://juvoleads.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Levi Lascak joins us for podcast #64 to discuss creating content on YouTube. He’s a real estate agent and what worked for him can work for personal injury attorneys as well.
Levi covers how he got started with YouTube, what’s different about YouTube, what PI lawyers could cover on their channel, topic research, formatting, video ranking and many other additional tips. If you are not publishing content on YouTube you will want to listen to this.
Find Levi online here:
– On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PassiveProspecting
– Instagram @LeviLascsak: https://www.instagram.com/levilascsak/
– TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/discover/levi-lascak
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon
Attorney Tom Wagstaff is an attorney in Kansas City who focuses his practice on complex litigation involving nursing home abuse. In this podcast, Tom discusses Elopement Cases complexities, examples, and winning these types of cases.
Tom also covers
- What is elopement?
- What are some of the reasons that elopement happens?
- Can you tell us about an elopement case you represented?
- How do you go about investigating elopement cases to determine liability and hold the nursing home accountable?
- In a traditional wrongful death case, the settlement would generally include loss of income and other financial damages. That doesn’t seem like it would be true when it involves a senior citizen. How are wrongful death settlements for elopement calculated?
- Are there any particular challenges or complexities associated with proving negligence in elopement cases compared to other types of nursing home abuse?
- What preventative measures can nursing homes put into place to stop elopement?
- Do you have any other tips for lawyers who are taking on elopement cases?
Visit the Law Office of Tom Wagstaff Jr. here: https://www.thewagstafflawfirm.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Brandon Banks is an attorney in San Francisco, California who practices Employment Law. In this podcast, Brandon discusses some ways he attracts Wrongful Termination cases.
All Employment Lawyers can tell you all about the wrong types of cases being in business can attract.
Brandon covers what types of cases he accepts, why he works exclusively with those who have been wrongfully terminated, some ways he attracts these types of cases, marketing challenges, turning away cases and offers some advice for other attorneys who wish to target a certain type of case.
Visit Brandon Banks Law, APC here: https://brandonbankslaw.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Attorney Tom Wagstaff is an attorney in Kansas City who focuses his practice on complex litigation involving nursing home abuse. In this podcast, Tom explains some of the challenges and differences between nursing home abuse cases and the more run of the mill personal injury cases such as motor vehicle accidents.
Tom also covers
- The different types of facilities
- Which types of facilities are notoriously the wort for abuse cases
- What types of injuries are the most common
- How long these cases take
- Nursing home abuse cases vs typical personal injury cases
- Case value
- Referral marketing
- Additional tips for personal injury attorneys
Visit the Law Office of Tom Wagstaff Jr. here: https://www.thewagstafflawfirm.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Megan Braverman from Berbay Marketing and PR is joining us today to walk us through the challenges and opportunities for personal injury lawyers trying to score some media attention.
Great PR can do so many wonderful things for law firms. Not only does it tout your professional achievements, but it also positions you as an expert in your practice area. Additionally, the backlinks your website gets from the coverage dramatically helps your overall SEO positioning. While some law firms naturally get press for big cases, some legal sectors struggle to get attention. This is especially true for small to mid-size personal injury firms. But there are ways to make that happen.
Contact Megan Braverman at 310-405-7343 or visit https://www.berbay.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. Great PR can do so many wonderful things for your law firm. Not only does it tout your professional achievements, but it also positions you as an expert in your practice area. Additionally, the backlinks to your website gets from the coverage dramatically helps your overall SEO positioning.
While some law firms naturally get pressed for big cases, some legal sectors struggle to get attention. This is especially true for small to midsize personal injury firms, but there are some ways to make that happen. Megan Braverman from Berbay Marketing and PR is joining us today to walk us through the challenges and opportunities for personal injury lawyers trying to score some media attention. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Megan:
Thanks, Lindsey. Happy to be here.
About Berbay:Lindsey:
Well, tell us a little bit about yourself and about Berbay.
Megan:
Sure. I’m the owner and principal of Berbay Marketing and PR. We specialize in working with law firms. We’ve helped hundreds of law firms increase their visibility via the media, speaking, nominations, online and more. We have been around since 1995, and really serve as law firms outsource marketing departments and becoming their strategic asset to help increase their visibility and get more business in the door.
How Public Relations Helps Law Firms:Lindsey:
Well, this is a really simple question, but why is it important for personal injury firms to get PR?
Megan:
Public relations helps in a wide variety of ways. I mean, first and foremost, it helps increase your visibility. It gets your name out there more. The other really important piece is it reinforces your credibility. So, you get that recognition, but it’s enhancing your credibility. This is a third party quoting you, a third party featuring you, and that really adds a lot to your credibility.
It also positions you as a thought leader. Think of you’re the expert in your practice area. PR is a very powerful mix of your marketing. That top-of-mind awareness among prospective clients and referral sources is really key because what you’re trying to do is that prospects and referral sources think of you first when there’s a need. And so, ultimately, that’s what PR does, is it keeps your name out there. And then, the end goal is really to bring in new qualified leads.
Lindsey:
Right. And so, when somebody either sees your name multiple times and they think of you first, or if they’re looking on the Google search results and see your name pop up, they know that they have seen you somewhere else before. And that credibility and that presence of mind will hopefully push them over the edge so that they call you before they call someone else.
Megan:
Absolutely. And that’s a really good point because you’re a search engine optimization firm. And so, the more things that point to your website, the better. These placements and media coverage is a great way to propel SEO efforts.
Lindsey:
Well, and I liked what you were saying earlier about how it gives your firm credibility, and Google looks at your PR coverage in the same way that a user would where Google sees you being a credible source through a backlink on a website that a news article would give you, and that backlink gives your website more credibility as well. So, while an end user might see your name being quoted somewhere, Google is actually seeing your name being quoted somewhere and boosting your website. And so, from an SEO perspective, that helps.
But definitely want to focus on more of the client side and what great PR can do for your law firm and helping that client convert to be an actual perspective case for you. So, talking about different media coverage, a lot of law firms who haven’t done a whole lot of PR just think about PR in one of two ways. One is either issuing a press release about XYZ or natural press regarding a big case, but there are a lot of different ways that law firms can get PR and obtain media coverage. So, can you talk a little bit about what those are?
Earned Media:Megan:
Sure. So, I think an important distinction is that we’re pursuing earned media for our clients. So, this is not paid media. You can think of paid media that you’re paying a publication to run your ad. You’re paying a radio station to run your radio spot. You’re paying a broadcast or TV station to run your commercial. So, this is a very different marketing tactic, which is pursuing earned media. And there are many different forms of earned media. You can be quoted online.
You can be featured on a spot in a broadcast clip. You can have a Q&A in a print publication. You can be a guest on a podcast, interviewed by a radio reporter, even be featured on a reporter’s social media. So, there’s a wide variety of forms of earned media. So, I’ll talk a little bit about how do you obtain media coverage. One is, this seems like… and I’ll explain this, but it’s inserting your name into the media stream. So, how do you do this? You have to be an advocate for yourself with the media, pursuing these media opportunities.
You have to pursue them. Don’t wait for them to come to the door. Your competitors are not hesitating to pursue them. So, you have a lot of brain power. If you looked around your desk and what you’re working on, reading, researching, or even communicating to clients on, it may seem like day-to-day stuff, but there are little nuggets of information that we look for as a PR agency that we can use. So, the media members of the press, they’re looking very simply for trends, forecasts, industry insights, what’s changing, et cetera.
And so, we look for these little nuggets of information and we craft story ideas around those nuggets. So, this is not necessarily a verdict, a settlement, a case filing. This is just finding trends and forecasts that we can pitch to the media featuring you as the expert. We package this in an interesting way to reporters because we want to pique their interest. We’re doing it very targeted. If you’re pitching a local publication, it has to speak to the local audience.
If you’re pitching a legal publication, it’s got to speak to the legal community, so on and so forth. So, that’s one way of inserting your name into the news stream is identifying these trends and packaging them to reporters. The other piece which you mentioned is touting your successes. So, lawsuit filings, verdict and settlements, case milestones, trials, anything that you can leverage as a milestone you should do. Now, obviously, there’s a lot of caveats to this.
I mean, one is client confidentiality. There’s some cases that have confidential aspects that you can’t tout. Sometimes the client is sensitive and you don’t want to feel like you’re stepping on the shoulders of your clients. So, these can be few and far between. Maybe it’s just such a run-of-the-mill case that there’s not a whole lot interesting there. So, that’s why the first piece of inserting your name into the news stream is so important. But obviously, press releases and touting client successes is another one. There’s a couple other that I’ll touch on.
One is what we call newsjacking. It’s like a jargon word in our industry, which is basically leveraging headlines and news that’s not yours. So, I’ll give you an example. Let’s say you’re a personal injury firm and you do a lot of work on slip and fall cases, or you do a lot of work with auto accident cases. Let’s say there’s an auto accident or slip and fall case that’s in the press that’s getting a lot of tension. You can then comment on those cases.
You can talk about the case, what’s next, what to consider. We’ve done this for a lot of clients, and it’s been really successful. So, really focusing on your areas of expertise and what you would comment on. And sometimes those cases don’t necessarily, they haven’t hired a lawyer yet. And so, we’ve actually seen newsjacking work in business development opportunities where the lawyer is actually commenting, and they end up landing the case.
The two other things that I’ll mention, one is byline articles. So, a lot of publications are accepting outside contributors to author articles. And these are really wonderful marketing pieces. One is that you control the message. You don’t have to worry about being quoted… or misquoted, I should say, or being taken out of context. You get to write an article, they’re usually around a thousand words. And what this does is one, obviously for anyone searching on the subject, there’s a high likelihood that your article is going to come up, but it’s also your virtual bookshelf in a way.
I mean, you can use that for your bio, for your website, for your social media, and it lives online forever and can be a great and powerful marketing tool. This is also really good for junior associates or junior partners. This is one way to get their foot in the door. And then, the last piece is nominations and rankings. So, there are hundreds of legal rankings out there, both local, regional, national rankings. And that’s a great way to get earned media is to submit yourself to these legal rankings. And some are voting-based super lawyers, best lawyers. We keep an eye on all of those and help our attorneys get included.
Lindsey:
Those are all phenomenal ways to just get… especially your digital footprint out there. And I know that if I were to be looking for an attorney and there are four different attorneys that I’m trying to decide between, I would probably start Googling them and seeing what they have out there, what their experience is, what their expertise is.
And if it comes down to one lawyer who has a great digital presence that has a lot of information, a lot of articles published and has really showcased what they know, I’m probably going to lean more towards them than if I can’t find a whole lot either positive or negative on another lawyer who doesn’t really have much of a reputation out there that I could dig into. So, those are all fantastic ways to get that earned media coverage. But a lot of the law firms that we work with are personal injury firms obviously, and they have struggled to get that earned press. Why do you think a lot of personal injury law firms struggle to get that attention?
Why Some Personal Injury Firms Struggle to get Earned Media:Megan:
I think it can be difficult for a number of reasons. This is a lot based on the type of personal injury firm. So, for example, some personal injury firms, they work on high-profile cases and land high dollar amount or have high-impact cases. Those are very newsworthy and easily leveraged for press purposes. But a lot of firms don’t have those types of cases. Their cases are what I like to call more run-of-the-mill. For example, slip and falls, auto accidents.
These are usually not high profile in nature and perhaps they don’t have any interesting underlying issue. That’s why I say run-of-the-mill. They look very similar to other auto accident or other slip and fall cases. But keep in mind, the dollar amount isn’t the only thing that the media cares about.
In fact, some very high-dollar cases, they don’t get coverage because there’s nothing interesting about the case itself. So, one of the ways that I mentioned we get media beyond touting wins is positioning you as an expert based on trends. So, one of the uphill battles with this is that many trends we talk about with PI firms are evergreen stories, bike accidents, car accidents.
These happen so frequently that the media tends to shy away from riding stories that have been so extensively covered year after year. They’re going to ask the questions, “What’s new about this this year? Why should my audience care? What has changed?” And so, the more that you can answer those questions with the evergreen stories, the better.
One example, I’ll give you a law firm client we were working with, was leveraging this trend around the use of live jury focus groups. Okay. He mentioned that it was a growing trend, but the media didn’t really see it this way. They saw it as, “Well, live jury focus groups have been around since really the beginning of time. And we had trouble with that pitch idea because it didn’t really hit some of the timely relevancy issues that members of the press want to know about.” So, those are a couple of the challenges, and there are ways to combat that.
Lindsey:
That’s really helpful. And it’s nice to know that there are so many personal injury firms out there that are struggling with the same thing, but making something interesting or again, getting those quotes and looking at trends are always that you can combat that and try to get a reporter’s ear.
One of the other things that you talked about with the newsjacking, I know that there are some personal injury lawyers that we have worked with who’ve had success reaching out to reporters individually. So, if there’s a reporter who is known for covering child injuries or dog bite cases, getting in touch with them. So, how would a personal injury lawyer go about making the connection with a reporter who might cover something that a personal injury lawyer would have relevancy with?
Megan:
Sure, it makes sense. So, I’m going to answer your question and I want to answer another question. I talk about the challenges, and I really want to give a few examples of, okay, I am that personal injury firm that has these “run-of-the-mill” cases. So, what can you do with that? How do you get press? So, members of the press, they want claims substantiated. So, let’s go back to the live jury focus group as an example. Can you provide statistics behind this?
Can you point to a growing trend beyond that, that it’s just coming from your gut? A lot of these trends sometimes will like, “This is just what I’m feeling.” Another example actually stemmed from what an SEO firm put together. They created a nationwide map of where auto accidents occur.
So, you can visually picture this. You would hover over a specific state, you would see the number of auto accidents, what type of accidents, where these accidents were taking place, et cetera. The next year when this was updated, we noticed some major shifts, like some states saw this big spike, others saw these big drops, and that piqued our interest. And so, we framed a story around it, but not only were we able to provide press with statistics, but we were able to give media a visual, which is very important.
So, we didn’t really discuss visuals, but those are often really big selling points for media. So, they don’t want to just write a story about a trend. If they have a nice visual to pair with it, all the better. So, you think about it as the whole package you’re giving press. And this is especially important for broadcast.
Broadcast needs to pair it with a visual. So, sometimes they’ll cut the story for lack of a good visual. And newsjacking is obviously, I mentioned and it’s a great way for PI firms to get press, and there are so many opportunities for you to create this stuff. Just because you don’t have this nationwide map, there are ways that you can create it. Maybe there’s some research you put into a case that we can pull some data out of it. So, I just wanted to give those as tips.
But back to answering your question, which is how do lawyers and law firms make these connections? Pick up the phone and call people. I mean, you said it yourself. It’s like, identify the people that are writing these stories, get together with them, go in person over coffee or lunch. They’re humans too. The more personal connections you have, the better likelihood they are to call you.
Also, sometimes you have a really great pitch to this reporter, let’s say, that you have a relationship with, but the timing is off. Let’s say it’s the middle of an election or there’s something really big happening. Getting in front of them regularly is really critical. It’s just like you want top-of-mind awareness with your potential clients. You also want the same with press members. So, they may put you on their Rolodex for the next story, but the more you stay in front of them, the better. So, make those personal connections. I think there’s a lot of power in that.
Lindsey:
I think that that is so true and so helpful. There are a lot of personal injury lawyers that we’ve talked with who have just been issuing press release after press release after press release, over the same run-of-the-mill stuff and are wondering why they aren’t getting picked up. Why is nobody calling them about this? Well, I mean, you have to put in a little bit more work than that. You have to really work on making those connections, or you hire a PR agency to do that legwork for you, one would think.
Megan:
Exactly.
Lindsey:
So, talk to me a little bit about why hiring a PR agency can help you with this legwork.
Hiring a PR Agency:Megan:
Sure. It’s a question we get all the time. “Should I hire a PR agency? Should I do this in-house?” You hire an agency for a lot of reasons. One is bench strength. It’s almost impossible for one person to be good at everything. With an agency, you have a team of folks at your disposal experience.
We’ve worked with hundreds of law firms for nearly 30 years. We know what works; we know what doesn’t work. We’ve also had a lot of media connections. Unquestionably, an agency will have more connections. I think agencies will certainly give you a lot of creativity. It’s not that one person can’t give you that same creativity, but even the most creative person in the world can’t be the most creative person every day.
And they will often get bogged down to fulfill the day-to-day projects. And I think that efficiency goes back to just the bench strength and resources. I think agencies have a lot more resources at their disposal. We subscribe to very expensive media databases. A lot of law firms aren’t going to do this and spend the money on that. And also, even if they do, it’s difficult to navigate those resources. You really have to be trained on them and be using them. So, those are a couple of reasons why you’d hire an outside agency.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. And lawyers, law firms, unless you have somebody who is dedicated and has these connections and is putting everything behind it every day, you’re just not going to be able to get the same results from one person or as the lawyer yourself because there’s just so much time and effort that needs to go into it. And the other thing, in addition to time and effort is money and PR is an investment. So, how much should lawyers be setting aside every month to invest in PR?
How Much are PR Services:Megan:
So, that depends. To give you an answer, I mean, roughly in our experience, we see agencies typically priced anywhere from 50,000 annually to 150,000 annually. Obviously, there are firms that fall outside of those parameters. That’s generally what we see. And it’s dependent on scope of work. So, if you’re just one lawyer versus 15 lawyers and how many folks are the agencies supporting, those are all things that will come into play.
Lindsey:
Well, if listeners want to learn more, what is the best way for them to get in touch with you?
How to Contact Berbay Marketing & Public Relations:Megan:
You can pick up the phone and call me. I am available anytime. I offer free advice regularly. So, 310-405-7343 is my direct line. And you can find all and any information on our website at berbay.com, B-E-R-B-A-Y. We have a whole what we call our learning hub. We’ve got nearly 30 years of experience, that we write regular blogs and talk about all kinds of issues that law firms face.
And so, you can get a lot from our website as well. But I’m always here to help people navigate this because I know that it’s the same when you’re looking for a lawyer. You want the lawyer to hold your hand and navigate you through the situation. So, we do the same for our law firms.
Lindsey:
Well, that is awesome. We will be sure to put all of that information into the transcript for the podcast. And thank you again so much for coming on and sharing all this with us.
Megan:
Thanks, Lindsey.
In this podcast, Personal Injury Attorney Will Gosney provides some insight on how TV ads have helped Ylla Gosney, Attorneys at Law with their practice in Oklahoma. With heavy spenders in the area, they chose to create very high quality, memorable TV ads to build their brand. Their commercials are top notch and the partners are able to discuss their values in them.
Personal Injury Marketing Minute 59 addresses why some TV ad campaigns fail, their tactic to compete, proceeding with ads during Covid, ROI, traditional TV vs OTT and much more.
We strongly recommend listening to this episode if you are considering running TV ads for your law firm.
Visit Ylla Gosney online here: https://yllagosney.com/.
Visit Will Gosney’s profile here: https://yllagosney.com/william-gosney/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Here’s one of their great videos:
Transcript:Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. One of the oldest marketing strategies, next to phone book ads, is TV commercials. We have talked to dozens of law firms about their TV ads and nine out of 10 lawyers tell us that TV ads just have not worked for them. However, sometimes they do work. Will Gosney, a personal injury attorney in Oklahoma has actually had some decent success with TV ads. So, before you either dump money into a new ad campaign or blow off TV ads altogether, let’s find out how Will has made them work for his firm. Thank you so much for joining us, Will.
Will:
Thank you. It’s really good to be here.
About Will Gosney & the Ylla Gosney Law Firm:Lindsey:
Will, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your firm.
Will:
So, I’m Will Gosney, I am a native to Oklahoma City, grew up here in the Oklahoma City area, went to school at the University of Oklahoma, I graduated with both my degrees from there and started practicing here in Oklahoma City right away in personal injury. A unique career path, I didn’t have to jump around like most folks in law do. I met my mentor who had just started his own practice right after my first year of law school, was able to just start on as an intern with him and then really kept going. And then he passed away unexpectedly in 2018 and, from there, the other junior partners in the firm and I, we banded together and we took over the firm.
So, we’ve been managing the firm since that time. But I love Oklahoma, this is my home and we like it here so, yeah, that’s a little bit about me.
How Ylla Gosney Got Started with TV Ads:Lindsey:
Well, great. Well, thank you for giving us some background. So, why did you start running TV ads and how long have you been running them for?
Will:
So, I mentioned I got into practice in personal injury with my mentor and he had gone out on his own when he started practicing and I started with him and he had practiced at a large personal injury firm in Oklahoma that did a lot of TV marketing. So, I’m sure, in most markets and whenever I travel, I look and see what other people are doing but I think, in most markets, there’s probably a handful of folks who cornered the TV market, the real big spenders. And he had worked at one of those firms and, through the years, he had dabbled and been unsuccessful in doing his own television.
So, then, when he passed, my partner, my current partner and I, we decided, well, there’s something that he had been passionate about but never really put forth the effort to truly realize. And so, a little bit of a nod to our mentor who had wanted to do it but never really could put it together and then, also, just because we were looking for ways to make it work for ourselves, so expand upon our model and have this fresh start, branding ourselves. So, a lot of different reasons but we started in the spring of 2019 is when we started writing our TV ads.
Return on Investment & Brand Building:Lindsey:
So, you’ve been doing them for a few years now. What kind of ROI have you seen since then?
Will:
So, we have a unique path in that our ROI was immediately disrupted by COVID. So, we started and we had always anticipated that this would be a long play, so this would be brand building in a lot of ways for us. And so, we knew it wouldn’t necessarily pay off immediately but, gradually, over the few months, we did start to see some return. And then, COVID, everybody had a decision. Some people decided that they would just really stop spending nearly as much and I made the decision that, look, I think there’s going to be a lot of people at home watching TV so we didn’t spend more, we didn’t spend less, we kept our spend static. Whereas, the goal would’ve been to continue to increase little by little how much we were spending on our TV ads, we more or less kept it static.
So, again, I think the business in general was down in 2020, less people were on the road but, from there, it really started to grow. We were breaking even by that time and then I think we were really seeing a return on our investment by 2021 and then it just continued. We’ve continued to see an increase in how many files we’re getting based upon how much we’re spending so our ROI should be even more this year. So, it’s gotten to be where it’s pretty good so we’ll see what the future holds but, hopefully, it continues that trend.
Can You Track TV ROI?Lindsey:
Well, that makes a lot of sense. As you said, people were at home watching TV and so, while a traditional investment would’ve had a return of X amount, you’re getting even more from that one investment that you’re making because of all the additional visibility coming with it and lawyers pulling out and you really being at the top of people’s minds. So, you made a really smart move in having that additional brand exposure and, as you said, you’re starting to see some more ROI especially as you’re starting to spend more into that. But how are you able to track exactly how many leads are coming in from a direct result from the TV ads?
Will:
Well, I assume most people are doing this but, really, the only way that we have is to ask folks how they got to us. And so, I do think that there’s an effect that’s unmeasurable. So, the ads are going to give people, people who may be referred to us by a prior client of ours or by a physician or someone else, they’re probably more likely to trust that person or give us a call because maybe they’ve seen this on TV but, when they call, they say I was referred by my friend. But we do track specific, when people tell specifically TV and then we’ll even go so far as to ask them, “Is there a particular channel that you watch more than another?” so, that way, we can determine where people are seeing us specifically based upon the programs they’re watching or the stations that they’re watching.
So, anyway, yeah, we just ask clients and we keep careful track of it. I track where clients are coming from and we monitor that. But I do think there is an impact beyond more than just the people who are calling and say, “Yeah, TV is where I saw you.”
Do TV Ads Produce Quality Leads?Lindsey:
Right. And you’re absolutely right, when you have so many different factors at play where people are seeing you on TV, you’re referred from a friend, they see your website, all of those work together to build your visibility and the recognizable aspect of your brand and build that trust factor that all ultimately leads to them calling you. So, regardless of whether or not you have a unique phone number on your ad or some other tracking system, all of that is definitely working together.
But obviously, I’m sure, especially in the personal injury world where people will look at a commercial and you get 30 seconds or so to explain exactly why people should call you, not everybody really understands exactly what a personal injury attorney does. So, how many junk leads are you getting from these ads as well? Have you noticed an uptick in those?
Will:
Yeah, yes, you got to kiss some frogs, that’s what we say. You got to kiss a lot of frogs sometimes and it is annoying. You get people who are maybe not in the right state of mind that you got to talk to, you get people who maybe are overly litigious that you wouldn’t want their claim anyway, you get people who have no idea-
Lindsey:
Somebody stubbed their toe and wants to hire an attorney?
Will:
Sure, right. Right, they want to sue, whatever. But we’ve taken the attitude that even the junk calls are an opportunity to build a little bit of a relationship even with the person who may not need us right now. And so, I’ve even had, and I realize this is an anecdotal experience, I don’t know that it’s necessarily helping us this much but I have had a person who’s called more than once with a claim that I could not help them with but on the other hand, I think I’ve won over this person for good. So, I think, if they do have a friend or family member or if they themselves get into a car wreck or have some actual viable claim, we’ll be on their list and it took me a few minutes out of my day to respond to this person.
So, we really do truly feel like, if we respond to people with kindness and compassion, even if it does seem a little bit crazy, that we’re still building the brand in that way. So, it’s maybe a little bit more remote way that we’re building our brand but we really try to view it as an opportunity instead of just a chore.
Lindsey:
Well, and it speaks to the bigger picture of why a lot of personal injuries attorneys get into this particular sector. They’re helping out, they’re building community, they are advocating for the underdog in a lot of situations and just providing really great information so that people who are typically under-served legally can reach out and get help. So, I think it’s great that you’re willing to spend a few minutes on the phone connecting with this person or these people and letting them know, yes, this is worth your time to pursue or, no, this really isn’t going to be helpful for you but, in the future, you’re there as a resource. I think that speaks to you and your law firm a lot.
Creating High Quality Ads:But let’s talk about the ads themselves. So, walk us through a typical ad. Who is in it? What’s the messaging and what do you want to stick with the viewer once they’re done watching your ad?
Will:
Yeah, so there’s lots of options out there. People could go any number of directions on how they want their ads to … What they want their ads to say or look or whatever. So, we decided, my partner and I, decided that we would both like to appear in the ad. So, that’s one thing we can check off the list is we both want to be in the advertisements, we want to be building ourselves as the brand. We’re selling our own services, that’s what we’re building so we decided that’s what we would do is be in it ourselves. And that can be intimidating, you got to … Especially maybe the first ad or two, there’s some shaky dialogue, it takes a lot longer to shoot one. Even if you’ve been in the courtroom a lot, sometimes your acting skills are not as great, if you want to call it that.
Just that presence, that in front of the camera presence, it can take a minute to develop but, anyway, it was important to us to do that. So, yeah, we appear in the ads, we also … So, we made a specific determination that we didn’t have the budget to match the big spenders in our market. So, I talked about that earlier on and I’m sure every market has it, there’s a handful of big spenders and we knew that we were not going to be able to go toe to toe in dollar spend. So, what we decided to do is to have ads that were very high quality production. So, instead of standing in front of green screen or going to an advertising company that uses canned ad or whatever else, we decided that we were going to spend a lot of money to have really high quality, really professional looking advertisements.
And so, then, from there, we also have basically decided that we’d have two variants of ads and one variant is more shocking, something that’s surprising, something that’s memorable. So, we’ve got a couple of ads that are real, more like memory making, like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe what I just saw, that’s really interesting.” And then the other variant of ads is more like just relationship building, just he and I talking or almost sit down interview style, we’ve also done client testimonial style but really more like, “Okay, here’s who we are as people, these are our values, this is what we’re doing to help and so forth.” So, we really have two different styles and those are the two ways that we decided to do our ads.
Being Memorable:Lindsey:
And do you have any idea of which style has resonated more?
Will:
Well, I would say they both … Well, they’re accomplishing the same thing in different ways and that is we want people to remember us, that’s what we’re looking for. We’re looking for people to remember us. And so, the more in your face or … So, the two ads that we have that are more memorable, one of them has a simulated car crash and, the other one, it’s a play on the Allstate Mayhem ads where I get hit by a car as a pedestrian and my partner gets hit by a sign falling down on him and so it’s real shocking to see that happen and they’re actually a lot more divisive.
So, we actually have some people call in and say, “Oh, my gosh, that’s amazing,” just to tell us why they really enjoyed watching that. But then we have some people say, “I can’t believe you wrecked two cars.” Of course, we didn’t wreck two cars, it was a computer generated wreck so it is more divisive. So, you do get some people saying that they don’t like them specifically but, on the other hand, you know people are seeing it and you know they’re really paying attention so I think that’s really important. So, again, as to how people respond, it’s just two different responses but we’re looking for both. We’re looking for people to remember our name with the one types of ads and then we’re looking to people to more trust our name and know what we’re about with the other style.
Choosing an Ad Agency vs Production Company:Lindsey:
That’s a really smart approach. And did you work with an ad agency to help develop your ads?
Will:
Yeah, we did and that’s a big part of our success, I think, is we just chose the right agency. And so, again, we were placing a high priority on production and so we’re not working with an ad agency per se, we’re working with a production company who will also help us with our ad agency work. So, I guess, maybe if you haven’t done it and I wouldn’t have understood the distinction before I fell into it. We knew we want well-produced ads so that’s what we were looking for first and then it just so happened that they also will help us talk to the reps at the TV station, help me understand what a good buy is and work over the TV reps for good deals and so forth, be an intermediary so I don’t have to talk to them all the time.
So, as far as that goes, yes, we sought out good production first. My mentor had had a childhood friend who’s an injury attorney in Arkansas who had used this particular production company and that’s how we came to know them, we saw those ads, thought that they were really great and wanted to do similar style to that. So, that’s how we got to know our guy. So, he’s producing content for Netflix and Hulu and big places all over so that’s what we really wanted. But then, as far as agency, per se, work goes, that’s also something that I decided I wanted to be involved in somewhat myself. So, even though I have someone represent us buying the ads, I like to get to know our reps. I like to understand exactly what it is I’m buying and when we’re buying it.
And so, I have tried to take a more hands-on approach, even though I am represented as to what exactly is going on so, that way, I can give a little bit more input to the fine-tuning.
Traditional TV vs OTT:Lindsey:
And so, you mentioned having the connection who’s with Hulu or with Netflix, are you doing OTT streaming ads as well as traditional commercial ads?
Will:
Mm-hmm, that’s a good question. So, yes, some but not a whole lot and that’s something I want to get into more. So, yeah, we do some and we’ll do some YouTube and, of course, social media. Traditionally, the TV, traditional TV is good in that you can build an audience, you can tap into audiences that already exist and then you’re reaching the same people at a predictable rate, that’s what we like about it, whereas, in the new digital age where ads are being placed to you, for some folks, it works great. So, if you’re selling purses, you want to be attracting ladies who are in the market for a purse, you can really fine tune what that market is.
So, there’s some folks who really appreciate the Google, YouTube OTT method of this particular we want people who make certain income brackets, certain age, certain gender, we want those people fed our ads. Well, as you know, anybody can be in a car wreck so it’s harder to define who your audience is and so what I wanted to do is try to reach the same people with a good frequency. Even though we might be reaching fewer people, we’re reaching those people with good frequency and that’s easier to do with traditional TV. On the other hand, I do acknowledge that traditional TV is changing, the landscape has very much changed even in the few years that we’ve been on TV but, definitely, for the foreseeable future, traditional TV’s going to change.
So, we will be entertaining more of that kind of work. I also think that traditional TV itself will continue to adapt and change so that we can continue to capture audiences instead of demographics.
Lindsey:
I think you’re absolutely right. I think we are at the infancy stage right now where TV is somewhat reinventing itself, where you go from your basic cable that had everything to now you have 12,000 different streaming platforms and I think we’re, right now, just seeing one iteration of what it’s going to ultimately transform into. And I don’t have any idea what that’s going to look like but I think that it’s going to be consistently developing especially over the next five to 10 years.
Will:
Sure.
How To Get Started with TV Ads:Lindsey:
And while I know a little bit about OTT advertising, I know absolutely nothing about traditional TV commercials and I’m guessing that a lot of attorneys are in the same boat where I am, where they’ve seen commercials on TV and don’t really know how to get there. So, if there is an attorney listening who is interested in making a TV ad, a traditional TV ad, what is the process? Where do they start?
Will:
Well, yeah, so I guess you have options so you just need to decide what’s right for you. Consider the options and then decide what is right for you based upon what you need. So, if you settled a gigantic case or you won a gigantic verdict and you have money to start spending like the other big spenders in your market, well, then hire a national firm that just does canned ads for attorneys and go for it and then spend all your money on the ads themselves. If you want to do more like what we did, well, then just start interviewing folks. So, like I said, our guy has done more TV related stuff, he’s almost like a filmmaker, he’s a director so that’s what we were looking for. So, there might be people like that that would shoot commercials for you so look for that if that’s what you want to do.
Your local stations should also know. So, at first, we started with one station and then we started to develop a relationship there and then we branched out to other stations. So, you can try to get to know yourself. Of course, they want to sell, they’re salespeople, they’re trying to sell you their time, they really want you but, because they really want you, they’re going to be willing to help you. So, they may know, in our market, heat and air is big, I’m sure it’s probably big in other markets as well but they’re going to know who’s producing the commercial for maybe the big heat and air guys and you can try that on or whatever other industry they might know, have some contacts. So, that’s another place that you could possibly look but understand what you’re looking for.
So, again, we knew we couldn’t match the spend so then we’re just trying to spend our money wisely and we’re also realizing that this is a long play, we’re just trying to build our brand and so that was also consistency. You got to be consistent and then you have to have a plan and then you also have to be willing to massage that plan as you need as you start to learn more and as things change.
Thank You!Lindsey:
Well, that’s great. That’s so helpful to know. Will, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your insights on successful TV ads.
Will:
All right. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure to be here with you.
Attorney Brian Glass shares outstanding advice on work life balance for lawyers. Personal Injury Marketing Minute #58 will cover why is it important to disengage and create work-life balance, how can a lawyer structure their time to create a more balanced lifestyle, what happens to this structure when things catch on fire at the office, and how lawyers can they break the cycle.
Brian Glass on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fairfaxpersonalinjury/
His Bio: https://benglasslaw.com/bio/brian-glass/
Time Freedom for Lawyers Podcast: https://www.timefreedompod.com/
Great Legal Marketing, LLC’s GLM Tribe: https://www.theglmtribe.com/
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:Lindsey: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. Over the past 10 years, there has been a major shift in the mentality of work where society used to glorify the 100-hour work week. We are now embracing having some semblance of work-life balance. While there are some industries where employees can fairly easily put in natural work-life boundaries, lawyers often struggle with this concept.
When your clients are in crisis mode, there are deadlines to meet and big money is on the line, it might feel as though everything is going to fail if you don’t just power through and burn the midnight oil. Well, you don’t have to. Brian Glass joins us today to discuss how you can be a great lawyer and still have a life. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Brian: That’s such an introduction, and I really hope that I can live up to the stage that you just set for all the listeners.
Lindsey: Well, I know that you will. You have a lot of experience putting together a great law firm, but also putting in some of those natural boundaries, and I can’t wait to get your thoughts on how you make it work. So tell us a little bit about your background and about your practice.
Brian’s Background:Brian: So I’m a personal injury lawyer in Fairfax, Virginia. I’ve been practicing for 15 years, and so hearing you talk, Lindsey, about the shift over the last 10 years away from 100-hour work weeks is like, “Wow, I predate the shift.” But more importantly, I’ve got three boys and a wife who I want to make it home to for dinner and for soccer practices and baseball practices. And so we structured all of our practice around that first, and I’d love to talk to you about that today. But so our practice, we have five lawyers in the firm, three of them are in an auto accident practice with me. The other two are in a nationwide long-term disability appeals practice, which is different than SSDI. We’ve got about 15 staff members now and we’ve grown 4x in the last five years.
Why Lawyers Don’t Trust Anyone:Lindsey: That’s phenomenal. That is some great growth and clearly you’re putting in the infrastructure to support that. And we see lawyers struggling all the time to pull away from the office and they get glued into that. Why do you think that’s going on?
Brian: Largely because lawyers don’t trust anybody else to do the work, right? Lawyers, we got to where we are because we were the smartest people in high school, so we went to the best colleges. We were the smartest people at those colleges, so we went to the best law schools. We were the smartest people in law school, and that’s how we got the job. And then we don’t trust our team to do any of the work for us. And so the practice that we designed, Lindsey, really has the staff doing the 80% of the work that gets all the results. Our job as lawyers is to create the framework where your team can operate knowing what the vision of the firm is, knowing what the goals for the clients are, and knowing where those guardrails where you’re not allowed to touch that because that’s actually legal advice.
But then elevating ourselves into the place where we’re making the 20% of decisions that move 80% of the results. And so in my firm, that means I do a lot of the intake and the sales to the clients, but then once they’re onboarded, all the onboarding is automated. We integrate with an app that sends them updates throughout the course of their case about what’s happening now and what’s going to happen next. And of course there are human touches in there also, but clients forget about that. And so then having the app on your phone that says, “Here’s the most frequently asked questions in this part of your case stage,” gives them the place to go and look and see where those questions are answered.
So all that is deliberately designed to create a great customer service experience, which then reduces the number of phone… Like how many times do you get a phone call from a client saying, “What’s going on in my case?” And you’re like, “I told you three times already,” right? Because we don’t always hear what the lawyer’s saying. And so having it and hear it and have it in writing and then have a video that’s available to them about what usually happens in this stage and what’s going to happen next, all that makes the client journey easier and reduces the number of times that they’re calling to ask you for an update, because often our clients are just kind of lonely and bored and they don’t have anything better to do.
Lindsey: Right. And they want to feel like they have some sort of control over the case and they want to feel like they’re still being involved in it. So, picking up the phone or writing an email, and the automation process that there are so many great tools out there that you can incorporate that the client can still feel like they’re being engaged in the process without necessarily having to take up your time as a lawyer that needs to be focused on actually working the case or driving the 20% of the decisions and letting everybody else still be working on that 80% without having to follow up with a million emails. But let’s get back to this concept of that 20%, 80%. Why is it so important to let go of that 80% rather than trying to take it all on yourself and having to trust other people?
You Don’t Have Time To Do It All:Brian: You don’t have time to do it all, or if you do have time to do it all, the firm will never grow outside of your umbrella and the space that you take up. And so, one of the rules in our firm is, I don’t get on a phone call with anybody on an unplanned, inbound phone call adjuster, defense lawyer, client, and I don’t get on a scheduled call unless I know what it’s about. And we communicate all of that to the clients in the initial stages, because it’s not fair to have them sign up for a lawyer they think they’re going to be able to call, text, email all the time, and then they don’t get that.
So we set these guardrails up in the beginning because I need to be focused on making the highest level decisions in your case. I can’t be focused on, “I got a bill in the mail, do I pay it or not?” So we empower the staff to do that because the cost of mentally switching between your file and Jim’s file and Bob’s file doesn’t allow me to do any high-level thinking on any of those things. And it wouldn’t be fair to you, Lindsey, for me to pick up the phone in the middle of writing a demand letter or an expert designation in your case and answer somebody else’s question. And so I don’t let you do that to them when I’m working on their files.
Lindsey: And that’s great that you set a reasonable expectation at the front. There are so many law firms that get negative reviews because they feel like their attorney isn’t being responsive, where it might not necessarily be the case that they aren’t being responsive. They just haven’t set reasonable expectations for what that response should be and how often it should be and who it’s coming from. So that is a great point.
Brian: That’s the number one thing that leads to legal malpractice complaints and ethics complaints, is lack of communication. And so messaging from the beginning, you’re going to get all the communication that you want and need, but it’s not always going to be from me.
Lindsey: Right, exactly. And they still have those touchpoints. They still have those automations, but they are in touch with the right resources for the problems that they’re having and the information that they need. What other structures are you putting into place that can free up more time for you and allow the other members of your team to focus on what they’re supposed to be doing?
Freeing Up Time:Brian: The largest structure is blocking off time on my calendar. So during spring and fall when my boys are playing soccer and baseball, four o’clock on, is blocked off. You can’t schedule anything there. Thursday mornings I block off, except for today. Thursday mornings I typically block off for deep thinking. So I’ll go to a coffee shop without internet and I’ll turn the wireless off or turn the internet off on my phone so I don’t have disruptions and do deep thinking on a handful of things and prioritize those things.
But any of those other available blocks of time that are on my calendar, the staff can schedule them. Or we have a Calendly link which is wider and wider used now, so most lawyers I think know about this. But that cuts down on all of the back and forth. Like, “I’m not available on Tuesday, but could you do Friday?” “Well, I could do Friday at 3:00, but not at 1:00. Just look at my link and go ahead and schedule it.” And then we cut out three emails and we’re onto the next thing.
Lindsey: That makes it so much more efficient, and I love the intentionality that you’re putting into creating that structure. It doesn’t just happen by chance. You don’t just mentally think, “Oh, well, maybe on Tuesday afternoon I’ll take an hour to do that deep thinking, break out the legal pad and sketch down some thoughts.” It’s actually a very structured, using the tools that you have at your disposal, and again, communicating with anybody who needs to be in touch with you the expectation of, here is when I’m available as opposed to, here’s when I’m not available.
Pick a time that works best for you, and it makes that collaboration work within your framework for establishing those boundaries. And it gives you accountability for holding yourself available to do the things that you’re needing to do. And that’s great I would assume about 90% of the time, but obviously things come up. So what happens to this structure when something catches on fire at the office?
Putting Out Fires:Brian: In theory, nothing should catch on fire. Things catch on fire because we’re up against a deadline and I heard somebody say this great line the other day, “We all procrastinate because we don’t want to do the thing, and then you have these fire drills at your firm.” Why? Because the pain of missing the deadline is worse than the pain of actually going to work on the thing. And so now we switch over and we go, “Okay, I got to file this, or I have to run to the courthouse to meet the statute of limitations.” But ideally, there should be no emergencies in a personal injury law firm.
Now, it’s probably different in criminal law. It’s probably different in family law where you’re dealing with custody. But in a personal injury law firm, every emergency is one of my own creation. Either we got too close to the statute of limitations or I took a case that I shouldn’t have taken, so I’m scrambling now to find a doctor, or I took a case three days before the statute of limitations, so I’m scrambling to work the case up to get the lawsuit filed. Those are all problems of our own creation.
And so I think internalizing, as the law firm owner, that all of this is your fault, then lets you create these frameworks where you go, “Okay, I made that mistake. I’m not going to have another case like this.” And so you asked, “Okay, but what do we do when it actually sets on fire?” I think most of us, we get through it and then we figure out on the backend, “How do I put a rule in place in my life to make sure that that doesn’t happen again?” And maybe it’s, “I’m not taking cases with less than 30 days before the statute, or I’m not taking cases unless I see the medical records.” Putting those rules in place in your life because things are going to go bad, it’s your job to make sure it doesn’t happen twice.
Lindsey: Right. And clearly, we are all human. We all make mistakes. I know, daily I’m making probably about 10 of them, but if I can learn from seven of them, then great, they probably won’t be happening again. But with those mistakes, it is so easy to get sucked back into that work overload. And if you’re not learning from those mistakes or you feel like you’re up against different challenges coming every day because that just happens, how can a lawyer break that cycle mentally?
Breaking The Cycle:Brian: How can you break that cycle mentally? I think the thing for me has been that it’s really hard to be an entrepreneur and a law firm owner because it’s isolating. So I love the team, but the team has different problems than I do and I can’t take my problems to the team often, or I have a mental block with taking my problems to the team because they don’t want to hear Brian complain.
But having an external framework, both of coaches and of mastermind groups and of a peer group who’s maybe not necessarily the other guys who practice law in Fairfax County because you don’t want to tell them your problems. But having that external framework where you can take ideas to and you can ask them to hold you accountable, that, “Don’t let me go outside of this box again,” that’s been really helpful to me. And then finding good coaching along the way so that as you have these problems, you have somebody who can help you work through them.
Lindsey: And clearly having these people in place and having these networks in place is an important part of the structure, and carving out time to make sure that you are participating in these networks of individuals and these support groups and coaching should all be built into that calendar and not necessarily an afterthought of, “Oh, no, I have a problem. I need to go run to this group.” So building that into your framework seems like it would be a really important step as well.
Brian: And not only for problems, but I think often as entrepreneurs and as high achievers, we have a hard time finding a peer group where we can share our wins. I know a guy who sold a company for $14 million and wasn’t able to tell anybody what he’d sold the company for, because who can I share this with that they’re not going to say, “Well, lucky you,” or some slight thing. And so having a peer group of people who are doing the same big things that you’re doing is just so critically important.
Lindsey: Right, because you’re not going to be able to go out to your kid’s soccer game and tell another parent, be like, “I just made $14 million this week.”
Brian: Nope.
Lindsey: They just can’t relate to that.
Brian: Yep.
Lindsey: So having those people in place, as you said, it can be so isolating when you have a different set of life expectations and there are different hurdles as well as different wins that you’re facing on a regular basis, finding people that you can connect with and relate to and support each other is just another huge part of that work-life balance. And I know you have so many more thoughts on this concept as well as what you coined the term as time freedom. If listeners want to hear more from you about this concept and more tips to build in these boundaries in their lives, where can they get more information?
Finding Brian Glass:Brian: On social media, I’m most active on LinkedIn. You just search Brian Glass. I have a podcast where I talk about this called Time Freedom for Lawyers where I interview highly successful entrepreneurs, and then I have solo, kind of my thought of the week episodes. And then if you’re interested in finding a coaching or a mastermind program, you could check us out at glmtribe.com. It’s a great legal marketing tribe. We’re building an organization of entrepreneurial lawyers where you can share these wins and you can share your problems and get them solved by other people.
Lindsey: Well, that’s great. Well, thank you so much for sharing these resources with us. We will make sure to put links to all of that in the notes for the podcast. And again, thank you so much for joining us today.
Brian: Thank you, Lindsey.
Gary Kilpatrick is an expert witness who has extensive experience with automotive accident reconstruction. He has a degree in engineering paired with a lifetime of knowledge of industrial mechanics. Gary joins us for Episode #57 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute!
Visit Gary’s website, The Kilpatrick Group, PA, here: https://thekilpatrickgrouppa.com/about/ or call 336-841-6354.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription:Introduction:Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. In the personal injury world, the majority of your cases will be settled out of court, but there are some of those complex cases that will require mediation or court proceedings. In those cases, you have already invested long hours and countless resources to build the best case possible, hoping that there will be a big payoff at the end. Part of building that case might include the involvement of an expert witness. If it does, you want to make sure that you are leveraging that asset to its full potential. We are going to talk about how to do just that. Gary Kilpatrick is an expert witness who has extensive experience with automotive accident reconstruction. He has a degree in engineering paired with a lifetime of knowledge of industrial mechanics. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Gary:
Yeah, it’s good to be here.
Why Did You Become an Expert Witness?Lindsey:
Well, tell us briefly why you decided to become an expert witness.
Gary:
Well, back about 2000, 2001, I read an ad in our local newspaper where University of North Carolina at Charlotte, UNCC, was hosting a presentation on the introduction to forensic engineering, and so I signed up. I was curious, so I signed up, and it was an eight-hour presentation. Dr. Young, who is a civil engineer, may or may not be there anymore, but he’s got a PhD in civil engineering and is a licensed professional engineer, and his presentation was mainly for the civil world, but I could see how it would be applicable to other areas.
And so at the end, he gave us a book, and I’ve still got that book today. At the end of the book, there are a couple of pages of references, one of which had different professional societies that we could go to for more information, one of which was the National Academy of Forensic Engineers. And so I contacted them and I spoke to the founder of that organization, Marvin Specter, and we talked for a bit and he encouraged me to join and become at that time a correspondent, and they were really the mentors behind how I got really more involved in this profession.
Lindsey:
What types of accidents are you routinely providing expert witness services for?
Gary:
Well, being a mechanical design engineer, it allows me to work in different areas. One is going to be motor vehicle crash recon, because as the engineers and the engineering dynamics and all the coursework we take, that goes front and center right down the list of everything that they talk about, and they get into the conservation of laws of linear momentum, work dealing with things sliding across a surface, kinetic energy and so forth and so on, and all those concepts are used to calculate the impact speeds of two vehicles coming together. I’m also heavily involved in industrial accidents, because I’ve got 20 years plus of experience working in the industry, one of which was where I worked for Clark Equipment, who invented the forklift and the front-end loader, and they were a major competitor to Caterpillar back during that day.
So, I’m heavily involved in industrial accidents, dealing with OSHA regulation, machine guarding, forklift accidents, crane accidents, and amusement park ride accidents, because they are machines. And let’s see if I missed anything. Mobile elevating work platforms, like scissor lifts, the little Genie lifts you see. And so I have licenses to operate all these machines, the area work platforms, forklifts and so forth, and I’m also set up as a trainer where I can actually train people and give them their licenses. And so that’s essentially what I do. Those are the big hitters, the areas where I work.
How Personal Injury Attorneys Interact with Expert Witnesses:Lindsey:
Well, and you can see a thread, a common thread of how those are all tied together with the engineering and the automation behind it or the automotive components that all go into that. There’s a universality where you can have a deep breadth of experience and understanding for how those things work because you have a long career in working with those types of machines, and so that feeds into your own personal knowledge base.
And clearly, attorneys, especially in the personal injury field or you would think in workers’ comp, would be calling you up because those types of accidents are happening all day every day across the nation. So, any type of personal injury attorney might come into a case where either something isn’t so straightforward that it’s quickly settled and it might go into court. So, at that point you would think that an attorney would call you up and want to work with you, and when working with a personal injury attorney on a car or motorcycle or ride at the state fair, what is the typical process of your relationship with them?
Gary:
Well, the first thing is I get a phone call, and he will kind of lay out essentially what happened in the case. He will identify whether or not he’s working for the plaintiff or defendant, and lay out asking everything that he knows about the case, or at least everything he will tell me about the case. And based on that information, I may or may not be able to help him. If I can, then… And what I do is when I talk to these lawyers, I will be honest with them and tell them upfront, “I think you have a good case,” or, “Based on what you’re telling me, I think you ought to walk away from it.” But that’s up to him. He may decide to go get another expert that may say something different. So, that’s up to him.
If he decides to retain me, then I send him a contract agreement to sign and then he will send me, I require him to send me back a copy of that signed agreement along with a retainer check, and that retainer check exercises the terms of the contract agreement and puts everything into motion. Then at that point in time, depending on whether or not a lawsuit has been filed or not, if a lawsuit hasn’t been filed and he wants me to do some inspections, do some research to try to give him an idea of what he should do next, whether it be to drop the case or whatever, or take the case.
After that, then if there’s a lawsuit that’s filed, then he’s going to send me the pleadings, which are the complaint and the answer, interrogatories, request for production of documents, reports, training, employee training documents. If it’s an industrial accident and OSHA was involved, then there may be a citation packet that they’ve created, which that’s what we call an OSHA report, but OSHA calls it a citation packet. They send me pretty much everything that’s discoverable that he has, and then I read through it. If it’s going to be, whether or not it’s a motor vehicle crash or some sort of an industrial accident, at some point in time, once I read through all this documentation, then I’m going to want to go see for myself what’s going on, and I will do an inspection of a forklift, a crane, a piece of industrial process equipment, or go out to the scene of a crash and thoroughly document it if the evidence is there.
If it is a motor vehicle crash, per se, and there’s a lot of detailed evidence there that I can use, then I can actually make speed calculations in my office based on what I’ve gathered to create this accident scene situation map. And then I can, once I’ve done all that stuff along with whatever else is going on, then he may ask me to write a report and I’ll write that and submit it. At some point in time, if this thing does not settle quickly, opposing counsel will want to take my deposition, and I’ll testify in deposition or they will depose many other people, fact witnesses, other experts and so forth. And so if the lawyers cannot come to an agreement and mediate this thing, then we will go to trial and I’ll testify for my client as an expert under oath in front of a jury and a judge. And then after that, I’ve done my job, and it depends on how the jury rules on it, and that’s pretty much kind of how that works.
Determining the Cause of Auto Accidents:Lindsey:
Well, it sounds like the most important part that an attorney can be a part of in terms of preparing you for success is that evidence piece. So, in looking at the evidence, what all do you need in order to piece together an accident timeline or the positioning? What pieces are you looking at in order to make your determinations?
Gary:
Well, if it’s a motor vehicle crash reconstruction, I’ve got to have a copy of the police accident report to see what they’ve alleged. If the accident took place very quickly, well, let me say this. When a motor vehicle crash takes place, the evidence field will start to deteriorate right then. Wind, rain, fire trucks, ambulance, wreckers rolling through this area, trying to clear it, and some of that evidence is going to be damaged or taken away. So, my job is to get out there and see what I can find. If all the tire impressions, skid marks, gouges and scrape marks and so forth are on the asphalt and on the property, along with anything else that the vehicles hit, their uncontrolled rest position and so forth, then I can document that on an accident scene situation map and hopefully have enough information to be able to recreate the accident on paper and track the motions of the centers of mass of those cars as they come together and leave. And if I can get to that level of detail, then I can very easily calculate the impact speeds of those cars.
If I don’t have any of that stuff and the police took a few pictures, they didn’t do anything to memorialize the evidence, there’s nothing really I can do, because I have got to have that evidence in order to be able to run these calculations. If it’s, say, an industrial accident, like say a forklift accident or an accident dealing with a crane or a piece of industrial process equipment, I want to go see this thing and see what it looks like, and hopefully it is in the same condition that it was at the time of the accident and it’s not been modified. If it’s been modified or put back into service, that’s what we call spoliation of evidence, and the other party can be sanctioned for it, for destroying that evidence. And so evidence is key, and that’s what we as engineers have to go by. We can’t pull things out of the air, we can’t do anything but go by what the evidence shows us.
Lindsey:
Right. You really have to have something tangible that you can look at and make a calculation. It’s not just speculation or generic opinion, but it really needs to be supported by facts.
Gary:
That’s right.
Lindsey:
And as you’re talking about the evidence disappearing, I mean it’s second by second that it starts to go away. From the minute that you’re moving the car to the side of the road, things are starting to deteriorate.
Gary:
Correct.
Lindsey:
So, it sounds like it would be really challenging to have a perfect crash scene in order to reconstruct. But at the very, very bare minimum for an attorney to hire you on and for you to do some calculations, what are some bare minimum requirements that they should have in terms of evidence?
Gary:
Well, I’ve got to have a copy of the complaint. If a suit’s been filed, I want to see what their allegations are. If they have a police, let’s say if it’s a motor vehicle crash, I’ve got to have a copy of that police crash report and any photos or videos that were taken at the scene. That’s going to be a good start. If it’s an industrial accident, then more likely than not, it’s going to be written reports of employees, personal statements, supervisory statements on an accident report, photos, videos, security videos and stuff like that.
Challenges with Out Of State Attorneys:Lindsey:
And of course, that’s definitely one challenge that you’re facing as an expert witness, to make sure that you have the documentation required and the facts required to make your calculations. But I know that there are other challenges that you run into while working with attorneys from other states. Not every state is as amenable to having expert witnesses. So, can you tell us a little bit about the challenges that you run into while working with attorneys from other states?
Gary:
Across the board, it’s actually pretty similar. Depending on the state in which these accidents take place, when it comes to personal injury or wrongful death, it’s what the legal community calls tort law. Tort is a short word for meaning torturous or injurious, and there are two basic laws in which states operate when it comes to tort liability, one of which is called comparative negligence, and what they do is they weigh out, a 49/51 split. If the plaintiff was guilty of some issue dealing with an accident that caused his injury, then he may not be able to get the full amount allotted by the court, but he can get some.
Whereas on the other case, there’s just a handful of states in this country that subscribed to what’s known as pure contributory negligence with a 0% rule, the 1% rule, a 10% rule, and what that does is that casts a magnifying glass over the plaintiff. If the plaintiff in, say, in North Carolina where I am right now, this is a pure contrib state with a 1% rule. If the plaintiff is guilty of any infraction, no matter how slight he is barred from any recovery, the case will never go to trial, but the lawyers can mediate it. They can do some things for the plaintiff, and sometimes there have been some big settlements, but they can’t take it to court. It’s all mediated or arbitrated.
Lindsey:
That’s interesting, and those are all good things to keep in mind as you as an expert witness are working with lawyers nationwide, clearly.
Gary:
Yeah. One other thing I wanted to point out is licensure. I’m a licensed professional engineer, and that’s necessary for me to provide engineering services on my own as a company, and every state has their own regulations. As a matter of fact, I got a call today from a lawyer in Alabama, and Alabama is one of these pure contrib states, and I told the lawyer that, “Before I can enter your state and inspect your piece of machinery, I have got to call the engineering board, the Alabama Board of Professional Engineers, and see what they say about that.” I really don’t want to be licensed in Alabama, because it’s one more license to carry in a state that’s more likely than not, like North Carolina, is not going to give me much business. I’ve been in business for over 20 years, and this is the only case, this is the only call I’ve ever got out of the state of Alabama.
Lindsey:
Wow.
Gary:
Because of the pure contrib, the tort liability, the tort laws they have. So, I called the Alabama Board of PEs and they told me, “If you cross that state line, now you’ve got to be a licensed PE.” I told the attorney that, and if he wants me to do this, then he’s going to have to pay my licensing fees along with it’s going to take about four to six weeks to go through this process to get licensed, and after that, he may not have a case. I really don’t know. And it’s going to be for nothing, on my part anyway. So, I would prefer, I’m just not going to deal with Alabama, because I never get called anyway.
But some other states are different. Some states, say the state of Texas, as I understand it, and I’ve called Texas before, doing this type of work in Texas, they don’t really consider it to be engineering. So, you can actually come into Texas, more likely than not, and do this type of work and not have to be licensed. But in other states, like North Carolina and some of these other states, you do. And any state that I go in that’s a comparative negligence state, I will always get licensed and carry it, because other people are going to be calling me later on.
Lindsey:
You would think that some of the larger comparative negligence states, like California, you would be able to work with a lot of attorneys out there who would need that kind of service.
Gary:
Well, the problem is when you go coast to coast, more like I’ve been called by one lawyer in California, and the reason is because it’s so far away. If I get on a plane and have to fly round trip, it’s going to be probably an eight-hour day. Probably more than that. I charge from the time I leave my office, I’ve got to go to the airport, I’ve got to go through security, which is going to be, it’s going to take me at least an hour to drive from my office to my local airport and then go through security, and I’ll have less than an hour before I get to my gate. And then after that, then I pick up a flight that’s going to have some layovers, and it’s going to be in the afternoon, late in the afternoon before I get to California, like LAX. And so that’s billable hours.
I cut my billable hours in half because I’m just flying around doing nothing, at least it saves the company, the law firm some money. But the problem is when you go across the country like that, you have that aspect of transportation cost, and sometimes that’s going to be a deal-breaker, because there’s plenty of people out there on that part of the country that can do the same thing I do, and they’re not going to call somebody like me. As soon as I say, “Oh, I’m from North Carolina,” it’s going to be click. You know?
How To Prepare Your Expert Witness for Court:Lindsey:
Yep. Yeah, it definitely would help drive down the cost quite a bit to work a little bit more locally. But it is nice that you can lend your expertise nationwide. So, what tips do you have for how an attorney can best prepare an expert witness for success in the courtroom?
Gary:
I need to have all the documentation that’s arguably relevant and discoverable. I have had attorneys before that would deliberately withhold documents from me that would be prejudicial to their case and they did not want me to see it. If I write a report or give an expert testimony not having seen that, then the attorney is some way manipulating my opinion because I have not seen all the evidence. That’s called hamstringing your expert, and I would prefer not to do that, because it could really put me into a bad situation and my opinions could be struck and I could actually ruin my career. So, the attorney needs to be forthright and upfront with me and give me all the documentation that he’s got, everything that he’s listed in his request for production of documents, I want to see.
Sometimes it may not be that relevant, like medical reports and so forth. I’m not a doctor, so I could care less about that. I would like to see what the injuries were, but outside of his treatments, I don’t really need to see stuff like that, because some of these medical reports are hundreds of pages long, and I really don’t have a need to read through all that stuff. But I need to see everything, the pleadings, I want to see what his allegations are, both complainant and defendant, the complaint and the answer. I need to see everything involved with the interrogatories, all the questions they ask each other, the request for production of documents, OSHA reports, any kind of report, training documents. Anything that he has. And he may not have some documents that I could suggest to him to ask for, and I could get those too. So, he or she needs to give me everything that they’ve got so that it will help me give them a more informed opinion, and it helps protect myself from being impeached and having my opinion struck because I never got all the information.
Contacting Gary:Lindsey:
Well, that is incredibly helpful as our listeners prepared to work with an expert witness. How can they get in touch with you if they have some more questions?
Gary:
Well, I have a website. It’s www.thekilpatrickgrouppa.com. I have a an email address. It’s kilpatrickg1@northstate.net, and the one is the numeral one, and of course, my office phone is 336-841-6354.
Lindsey:
Great. Well, we’ll be sure to include all of that information so that our listeners can reach out to you with additional questions. Thank you so much for joining us today, Gary.
Gary:
Oh, you’re welcome. It’s good. I’m glad to do it.
Today we are going to take a deep dive into OTT advertising for personal injury lawyers.
We will cover the basics of what OTT advertising is, how much it costs, how to get started, and some tips on making effective OTT campaigns for personal injury lawyers.
What is OTT Advertising? Basically, OTT advertising means having an ad on a streaming service.
Over-the-top refers to the delivery of video content in a way that bypasses traditional television channels. The OTT platforms are generally streaming services or apps. While there are over 350 independent OTT some of the biggest names are:
Hulu Amazon Prime Video Netflix Disney Plus Peacock Paramount+ Apple TV and more
Benefits to OTT Advertising: People are watching. I would place a conservative guess that at least half of our listeners have canceled their cable subscriptions. At our house, we have Hulu, Amazon Prime Video, Disney+, ESPN, Peacock, and pretty much everything other than cable. So, people are watching. Also, since people go in and hand pick what they want to watch, fewer viewers are flipping channels during commercial breaks.
Audience targeting. What is really cool about advertising through these streaming platforms is that you have much more control over who is watching. Unlike traditional cable ads that go to everyone across the nation who is watching a show, you can pinpoint your target market by location, age, interests, demographics, etc.
This is huge. HUGE! Think about it…if you want to target more bike accidents, you can create commercials that are all about how to help bike accident victims and have them directly go to people who have a noted interest in cycling. Or pair a motorcycle accident ad with people who like to watch shows about tricking out their choppers. If done right, the possibilities are endless.
If done wrong, the investment is pointless. So please, please don’t invest in a blanket personal injury video and blast it out to all of America and expect to get cases.
Analytics. Another benefit of OTT advertising is that you can get some detailed analytics and reporting to track your ad performance. Most platforms offer metrics on impressions, completion rates, and click-though rates (if you enable interactive ads). This can help you evaluate your ads and make data-driven decisions for future campaigns. How Much Does OTT Advertising Cost? Since many of the streaming services are individual entities, they are naturally all at different price points. Also, the more you define your target market, the higher the cost of running the ad.
OTT ads are priced on a cost per thousand impressions basis. This is generally noted as CPM. So, if an ad has a CPM of $10, you are paying a penny every time someone views the ad.
Hulu tends to be the among the most expensive with rates falling between 20-40 CPM. Their ad inventory is relatively limited, and their audience tends to be more engaged than other services, so they can charge a premium price.
YouTube TV has a lower CPM, typically between 10-20 CPM, even though they still have a large audience.
Other streaming services like Sling TV, Roku, and others with smaller audiences might have even lower CPMs while still being able to target your selected campaign demographics.
Another factor that can influence the cost can include how long the video ad is – the standard is 15-30 seconds. As a broad generalization, a 15 second ad can be 5-25 CPM where a 30 second ad might fall between 10-50.
Also, on some platforms you can enhance your ads by making them non-skippable or interactive. You can also select whether your ad plays, before, during or after the tv program. These choices naturally impact the cost of the ad. How to Start OTT Ads for Personal Injury Lawyers: If you are seeking a done-for-you solution for OTT advertising, contact us today and we'll connect you with an OTT advertising provider, if possible.
Attorney Kyle Smith is a cyclist who works exclusively with bicycle crash victims in his area at Paceline Law. In this podcast, Kyle explains why people remember him when they need his services.
Kyle also discusses the pros and cons of having a niche, provides amusing stories about unequipped insurers, talks about working on cases he actually enjoys, gives us powerful insight into how his law firm’s name was selected, touches on how other personal injury attorneys could select a niche of their own and how much experience they may want to have before diving into a niche practice.
Visit California Bicycle Crash Attorney Kyle Smith’s law firm online at https://pacelinelaw.com/
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription coming soon.
Joining us for Episode #51 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute is Sam Mollaei. In this episode, Sam covers how he automates his law firms and tells us about “My Legal Academy”.
In this episode we’ll also cover how Sam grows his law firms with automated virtual firms, lead generation, key employees needed, and breaking free from day to day tasks.
Read more about My Legal Academy here: https://mylegalacademy.com/
Watch My Legal Academy on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@mylegalacademy
Join the My Legal Academy Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/legalfunnel/members/
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription coming soon.
Joining us for Episode #50 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute is Allison Johs. This podcasts covers why you may or may not want to spend your time on social media. Some common goals include visibility, engagement, obtaining clients or gaining media attention.
Metrics measured depend on what you’re trying to accomplish. We also cover popular content types used on various platforms and how to best reach your target audience, who could be on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.
Reach Allison on her consulting site here: https://www.lawyermeltdown.com/.
Read Allison’s blog here: https://www.legaleaseconsulting.com/.
View the 2022 ABA Tech Report, mentioned in this podcast, here: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/law_practice/publications/techreport/2022/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Joining us for Episode #49 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute is Allison Johs. This podcasts covers how mediation works in personal injury cases, the pros of mediation, what happens when things don’t work out, and how a personal injury attorney and their client can best prepare for mediation.
Visit Mediation Solutions of NY, LLC here: https://mediationsolutionsny.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription coming soon.
Marketing in the legal world is all about finding new and creative ways to let prospective clients know that you are there to help when they need you. You can do this through your website, billboards, TV commercials, and through the good old-fashioned telephone.
While many industries can be infinitely creative in their marketing approaches, lawyers are limited by a considerable number of regulations that limit what they can and cannot say and do.
Joining us today is Mark Saccente of Smart Carrier to discuss compliance regulations in telecom marketing.
Visit Mark online here: www.smartcarrier.io/bios/mark-saccente-jr/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Episode #47 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute features Andrea Staub and Zachary Campbell of Metzger Wickersham personal injury law firm in Pennsylvania. We discuss their experience with local community involvement.
A few of the ways they participate in the community include donating to the local food bank, working with charities, providing a scholarship to local high schools, car seat checkups and speaking at colleges. The firm provides paid time off for employees to participate in community events.
Visit Metzger Wickersham online at: https://www.mwke.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription coming soon.
In Personal Injury Marketing Minute Podcast #46, Lindsey Busfield makes the case for embracing the things which make you unique.
This episode was inspired by The Good Doctor episode “The Good Lawyer” Season 6, Episode 16, “The Good Lawyer” which aired in March 2023.
We hope “The Good Lawyer” becomes a successful ABC TV series soon! We’ll be watching!
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world.
The mark of a good movie or TV show is that it leaves you thinking, questioning what you know about life and finding connections to add value to your personal reality.
I just finished watching the latest episode of The Good Doctor that aired on March 13th. The episode was called The Good Lawyer. Naturally, I watched through a different lens than some viewers due to my daily interactions with lawyers. As such, there is some skepticism about the timeline and likelihood of the events taking place.
Setting aside those details with a nod to creative license, I found something relatable in the show’s message that is worth sharing with you: You’re weird. Some people won’t like you. And that’s OK.
Without giving away too many spoilers, the episode centers around a legal issue that arose after Dr. Shaun Murphy amputates a man’s hand while trying to save his life after an accident. The victim sues Dr. Murphy, claiming that the amputation wasn’t medically necessary. Dr. Murphy turns to a young lawyer, Joni DeGroot who has obsessive compulsive disorder (or OCD).
Joni is characterized by her compulsive ticks and rituals, namely tapping on things three times, covering spaces with plastic wrap, changing clothing, and other rituals that are initially dismissed by her colleagues as being weird, distracting, debilitating, and just plain unlikable.
As such, she is forced to be hidden away in a closet and pigeonholed as a good researcher and walking database, but told that she could never be a good lawyer because of her idiosyncratic behaviors.
Upon initial thought, yeah – those rituals could be incredibly debilitating in a jury trial. When you need a jury to like you and your client, it would be distracting to have to tap on thing or be caught off guard by unexpected noises. The jury might be so distracted by your behaviors that they get sidetracked and miss your point.
At least, that was the line that she had bought into and accepted as her fate resulting from her neurodivergence.
But what she realizes, and what we all need to realize is that we all have problems. We all make people feel uncomfortable – especially in the legal industry where we deal with uncomfortable topics on a daily basis. But if we spend too much emotional energy worrying about whether people like us, we would never get anything done.
Now, that doesn’t mean to go out and be a total ass. But embrace your quirks.
You are weird. You think differently than others – at least, I hope you do. If I need to hire a lawyer, I want the weirdo who can look at a situation with a different perspective and find the creative solution that someone else would miss.
With that weirdness, you are going to have hits and misses. Some people won’t understand your way of thinking. Some people won’t like your bow tie. Some people might focus more on your height, weight, stutter, or other factor that you are insecure of. But more likely than not, you are giving that personal difference way more thought than anyone else would. Some people just won’t like you because they don’t get you.
But that is OK. Your quirks are more likely than not what makes you a good lawyer. Just as Joni’s OCD came with some behavioral ticks, it also gave her incredible attention to detail and a unique perspective that ultimately – spoiler alert – leads to her being recognized as a Good Lawyer.
So, embrace your weird. Trust yourself. Surround yourself with mentors who will see your potential while challenging you to be better every day. Show your clients that you will harness the power of your weird to knock their case out of the park.
Branden Race D.C. specializes in helping chiropractors increase their revenue by implementing telehealth into their personal injury practice.
In this podcast we discuss how personal injury lawyers can make connections with chiropractors, and how to optimize those relationships for everyone’s benefit.
We will cover:
1) How can personal injury attorneys make new connections with chiropractors
2) How can personal injury attorneys best use medical bills to optimize case values
3) How can personal injury attorneys and chiropractors work together to make sure clients stick to treatment plans (telehealth)
4) How can personal injury attorneys keep positive relationships going with chiropractors
5) What ethical hurdles to personal injury attorneys need to avoid when maintaining relationships with chiropractors
Branden Race on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandenrace/
Branden Race’s email: branden@ virtualpipractice.com
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription coming soon.
Episode #44 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute tackles leadership struggles in times of crisis. From pandemics to recessions, business leaders in the legal industry have needed to step up their game in order to keep their firms thriving.
In this podcast, Brandon Henderson discusses:
1) Challenges that the pandemic and recession have posed for law firms
2) How to seize business opportunities in times of crisis
3) Embracing reflection on business processes
4) The role of leadership and employee morale and productivity
5) The importance of gratitude
For more information on Brandon Henderson and his legal team, visit https://www.teamhmwwins.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon
Episode #43 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute features Trademark Attorney Alex Toporek and we discuss trademarking attorney’s slogans.
In this podcast, you will learn:
- What is a trademark?
- Does a trademark prevent others from using my slogan?
- What can be trademarked?
- Can attorneys use other attorney’s slogans?
- Should attorneys trademark their firm’s slogan?
Need a Trademark for your Law Firm? Visit Alex online here: https://toporeklaw.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription:
Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. As a personal injury practice grows, it is essential for them to figure out how their brand identity works so they can connect with their target market. As a firm builds out their brand strategy, they might look at things like their logo design, which colors to use on their site and their messaging. This often includes creating a memorable slogan that resonates with the clients that they want to attract. We have helped several of our clients develop their branding strategy, and lately have been asked a few times about whether or not lawyers need to trademark their slogans. The honest answer is I have absolutely no idea, but I know who we can ask. Alex Toporek is a trademark attorney in South Carolina who helps businesses trademark things. Thank you so much for joining us, Alex.
Alex:
Hi Lindsey. Thanks for having me.
About Alex ToporekLindsey:
Well, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Alex:
Sure. My name’s Alex Toporek and I’m out of Charleston, South Carolina. I’ve got an office here and I’ve been practicing for a little over 10 years now, and I’ve done a few different areas of the law, but the last few years I’ve kind of settled into helping small businesses with trademark registration and federal trademark registration, and it’s been going pretty well. So that’s been my focus, like I said, the last couple years and going forward.
How is a Trademark Different From a Copyright?Lindsey:
That’s great. So you know the ins and outs of all things trademark, and I want to get really basic because not everybody understands what a trademark is, what a trademark does, whether or not they need one. And so you’ve got copyrights, you’ve got trademarks. So what is a trademark and how is it different from a copyright?
Alex:
Sure. And yeah, that’s a question I get a lot as well. So copyright protection deals more with content. So the actual, if you write a book, the actual wording, the language you use in the book, or if you’re producing a video, writing a song, things like that, that’s where copyright protection comes in. Trademarks are a little different and the registration process is a little more technical than registering for a copyright and trademarks protect essentially, I think the best way to explain it is brand identifiers that are unique to your business and that you’re using to distinguish and identify the goods and services that you provide. So that can be a brand name, it can be a slogan, it can be a logo, even in some, and these are a little more rare, but even sounds and jingles and things like that, that those potentially could be ripe for trademark protection.
If I Trademark My Slogan, Does It Prevent Others From Using It?Lindsey:
And going back into the history of trademark, there’s the term trademark itself where you are literally marking your trade or your brand. And so if I’m understanding that correctly, anything that sets you apart, your brand apart from other similar brands would be the mark that you’re putting on your particular trade. And so going back to the question of the slogan, if I trademark my slogan, does it prevent others from using it?
Alex:
So trademark, if you go through the proper steps to get through the whole federal trademark registration process, what that does is it gives you the exclusive rights to use that more within your class of goods or services that you provide. It does require, if you want to really police that and you should, you do have to have some sort of monitoring and effect so that you can see if other people are using that and maybe keep tabs on the trademark database as well to see if anyone else attempts to register something similar. But I guess in basic terms, the idea is it does give you exclusive rights over that trademark.
What Lawyers Can and Cannot TrademarkLindsey:
And going beyond that is an interesting question where what is eligible for trademark and what isn’t? Because as a law firm, I could go and try to register the trademark of lawyer or Philadelphia lawyer and that would, of course, not be eligible for trademark. But can you explain a little bit as to what you can and can’t trademark?
Alex:
And I think it’s, obviously everything’s on a case by case basis, but it goes back to what we started off with. And it’s got to be something that’s unique and unique to your business and distinguishes your business. If you attempted to file a trademark for Charleston Personal Injury Attorney or Georgia Criminal Defense Law, you’re most likely going to get a one if somehow it did by a miracle make it through, it’s not going to have a whole lot of weight behind it. But most likely you’re going to get what’s called an office action saying that that is too descriptive and too generic of a phrase, of a slogan, and it essentially just describes what you do. And they’re not going to let it go through most likely. And if somehow it does, like I said, it’s not going to be afforded a whole lot of weight in the legal world.
Lindsey:
Well, and it gets a little bit confusing sometimes with what is protected and what isn’t and how they’re protected, because we see things like get the hammer or somebody who is the wrecking ball, and we see that a law firm in Kentucky, we see that with a law firm in California. Do they not have those slogans trademarked or is it geographically exclusive, or are those not trademarkable? How are multiple law firms using the same slogan?
Alex:
My guess is, and I haven’t researched those specific phrases, but my guess is these have not gone through the federal registration process, so they haven’t been vetted by the examining attorney at the Patent and Trademark Office to see if they are unique and distinguishable to those individual law firms. And that’s how, my guess is that’s why you see many people using it. And then on top of it’s probably in some ways it’s got to be pretty effective if people are using it. So while I may not get trademark protection, and this gets out of my area of expertise, obviously related, but from a marketing sense, you can still have some effective marketing using some of those generic phrases like that.
Can I Trademark a Slogan That Is Similar to Someone Else’s?Lindsey:
Absolutely. Because everybody knows the hammer and it conveys a certain image. And if you do have law firms, multiple law firms that are using one phrase like the hammer, would another law firm still be able to trademark that phrase and exclude other people from using it?
Alex:
I think they would probably have some issues with that as well. And what would likely happen if an application was filed for something like that, what likely would happen is you would get an office action like I just mentioned before, and that’s essentially a correspondence from the Patent and Trademark Office examining attorney telling you, Hey, there’s something wrong with this application and we need some clarification. And what they’ll likely do is issue something that says issue what’s called a 2D likelihood of confusion office action, which is that is serious and time-consuming of an office action as you can get, because they’re basically saying, this is too similar to something else, we’re not going to let it go through. And now you got to prove why it is distinguishable.
So my guess is something like that, if there was an attempt made, you would end up getting an office action like that. And if there are savvy attorneys out there with a savvy marketing department that’s maybe monitoring the trademark database and they see an application come up for that phrase, it’s probably going to get their attention and they’re going to make a note to oppose it or send some correspondence to fight. So, I do think that would cause some issues trying to go down that route.
How Do You Check if a Trademark Is Available?Lindsey:
Because if it is infringing upon something that’s too similar to another business that’s already out there, their slogan that’s already out there, it doesn’t encroaches on their protections. So let’s say that I have a law firm, I have a really great slogan that I just came up with. I think it’s fairly unique, I haven’t seen anybody else with something like it. How do you check if a trademark is available?
Alex:
So the first step, and this is something that I do as a courtesy to folks when I’m first meeting with them, but you can go to the US PTO, which is the United States Patent and Trademark Office, go to their website and you can search their database to see if a word or an exact phrase or even an image or a logo has been registered. What you really should do, and what I do at the outset of any trademark project that I get involved in is I perform a comprehensive clearance search. And we’re going to search not only the federal trademark database, but all the state databases, business databases, half stores, social media, you name it. And we’re going to see if there’s anything identical or similar or different variations of different spelling, something like that, and we’ll see what’s out there.
And doing that at the outset, it gives you a little more flexibility to strategize how you’re going to file your application and hopefully try to avoid some of these office action issues that I have mentioned so far. And there’s different, I include that in my trademark registration package when I’m working with a client, there’s different vendors that use that can range all sorts of different prices, but that can perform a comprehensive search. But that’s really the best way to see if there’s something out there similar. And not to be too long-winded, but the idea is what you want to avoid is developing your brand, developing a slogan, a logo, getting years down the road of building that consumer base and so forth just to find out, well, someone else is using it and now I may have to go back and change everything. And that’s costly just from a dollar and cents standpoint and also to your brand reputation. So the idea is to, if you can, and if it’s top of mind to do that at the outset before you really start putting the word out there and so forth.
Do Law Firms Need to Trademark Their Slogans?Lindsey:
Absolutely. There’s a certain amount of due diligence that you really should put in, especially if you’re wanting to build a larger brand, something that requires a great slogan to be memorable. And obviously you’re wanting to grow your law firm. And so putting the investment in ahead of time to make sure that you are building your brand on something that’s sustainable long term is a great and important investment. So I guess the bottom line that we’re getting at is do law firms need to trademark their slogans?
Alex:
I think it’s always a good idea to explore, and I’d mentioned earlier, one main aspect of one big benefit that you get from trademark registration is that exclusive use over the trademark. Another angle of it is it creates an asset of your business. And prior, I’m sitting around thinking about how we’re going to sell our law firms or anything like that, but it may happen down the road. And when you do that, having a brand, having a registered trademark as part of your intellectual property portfolio, it just enhances the value of your business, whether it’s a law firm, or anything else. It’s always a personal decision, obviously. But if you really are attached to a slogan or a brand name or something like that, and hopefully you are, if you’re using it, then it is something to at least explore. And I think it’s, like you said, looking at it as an investment, because it really is an asset to your business at the end of the day.
Contact Alex Toporek for More Help With TrademarksLindsey:
That’s an excellent point. Well, how can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more?
Alex:
Sure. Well, probably the best way to reach me is just through my website. It’s toporeklaw.com, and my last name is spelled T-O-P-O-R-E-K. And all my email, social media, contact form, all that stuff, my calendar’s on there as well if you wanted to schedule a call or a video. And I may have mentioned earlier, I certainly don’t charge anything to jump on the phone with anybody. So I’m always happy to discuss it.
Episode #42 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute features Aryeh Elbaz of accessiBe. In this podcast, Aryeh explains why your law firm’s website needs to be ADA compliant and how to easily accomplish that.
You will learn what ADA and WCAG are, if law firm websites need to be ADA compliant or not, lawsuits, common issues websites have and more about accessiBe’s AI solution / widget.
Sign up for accessiBe here: https://accessiBe.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Anne Kavanagh and Gigi Lubin are media training experts who work with personal injury lawyers. They have extensive experience coaching law firms as they address the most stressful situations where the camera is rolling. With an extensive interview record, Anne has interviewed six American presidents including Carter, the Bushes, Clinton, and Obama.
In this podcast, Anne and Gigi explain:
- Why personal injury lawyers need to be on camera
- How to be confident and collected on camera
- How to control the interview and keep your narrative on target
Visit Anne & Gigi online here at Legal Communication Strategies: https://www.legalcommunicationstrategies.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. As a personal injury lawyer, when you hear the term media training, you might initially think this only applies to the big lawyers who spend time talking to the press about high-profile cases. While media training is absolutely essential for those lawyers, it’s also essential for any lawyer who ever talks to anyone ever. So pretty much every lawyer. Whether you are talking to the press or making a YouTube video or recording a podcast, you are given the opportunity to either showcase your strengths or you have a risk of damaging your reputation.
While 50 years ago, a bad interview got buried in the digital age, the footage lives forever, so you must get it right the first time. Anne Kavanagh and Gigi Lubin are media training experts who work with personal injury lawyers. They have extensive experience coaching law firms and their clients as they address the most stressful situations where the camera is rolling. Thank you so much for joining us.
The Importance of the SoundbiteAnne:
Thank you for having us, we appreciate it.
Lindsey:
Well, tell us a little bit more about yourself and your background.
Anne:
Well, I was… Well first of all, both Gigi and I are graduates of the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern. We were a year apart, so we weren’t there at the same time, but we did have many of the same professors and some of the same experiences. I went on and worked for almost 30 years as a television reporter, most of those years in Chicago. And I left about 11 years ago, and I launched this firm MediaPros 24/7, because I saw a lot of good people who didn’t come across well in their interviews just because they needed a little training, a few skills, a few tweaks, and I thought, well, maybe there’s an opening for me.
As it turned out, I would say 75% of my clients at least ended up being attorneys and most of them well-known personal injury attorneys in Chicago. Some of them I had known through the years covering stories with them. And when I left, they reached out to me. In fact, it was funny, one attorney who was well known in Chicago, I did a story with her and her clients, and the story turned out very well for her case and helped prompt some very nice settlements, but she could not speak in a sound bite. And I felt so bad because I had limited time and I just couldn’t use her sound bite.
I used her client’s sound bites, but I couldn’t use hers. and I felt bad because she had been so great to work with. So I did of course say her name and I showed pictures of her walking with her clients. But I called her up at the time and I said, “I feel bad, but you just have to learn how to nail that 20 second sound bite because your sound bites are two minutes and they ramble.” And to her credit, she took it well. And she’s like, “Well, thank you for mentioning my name. The story’s been very helpful.” So fast forward a year later when I left, she was one of the first people that called me and said, “Can you help me?” And I said, “Of course.”
Then after that, she became a sound bite machine and did media interviews for years and years and continues to do so. So that’s kind of how I got to where I am now. And I’ve worked on a lot of high-profile controversial cases in Chicago, the Jason Van Dyke, Laquan McDonald shooting case is one of them. Another one is Jussie Smollett, where Gigi worked with me on that one as well, and that was quite controversial and really worldwide media. We kind of started working together I would say about four years ago, we had a mutual friend who thought that we would be a good team, and we met and we agreed. So-
Gigi:
We are a good team.
Anne:
… So I’ll let Gigi say a little bit more about her background.
Gigi:
Right. So Anne mentioned that we both are graduates from the Medill School of Journalism, but she didn’t say we have master’s degrees from there. And so yes, we both have masters from Northwestern’s Medill School of Journalism. I took kind of a different career path than Anne, where I was a television news reporter for a few years. I went on to Disneyland in their broadcast publicity department. So I worked on Main Street USA with Mickey and Minnie and all these others and met a lot of celebrities, some who really needed media training.
But I then, and I also worked with a large float builder for the Tournament of Rose’s Parade, which people see every year. We broadcast live from one of the floats. That was a first that was ever done, and that was my idea. Then I rode the float too. It was Bank of America. I worked with major consumer brands launching products all over the country. For instance, carbon monoxide alarms. That was a product I was part of introducing and getting them actually required by law, just like smoke alarms are required.
I’ve worked with big city fire departments’ media training. There are a lot of fire chiefs, one who went on to become the FEMA director and acted as on-air spokesperson for a large consumer product brand that works with fire departments. And I’m also a board member for the Chicago Fire Department, Survive Alive House Foundation. So basically, Anne and I are working together, as she said, on a lot of interesting legal clients and we’re really excited to be able to tell you about it.
Lindsey:
Well, and with legal clients, it is so important for them to be able to stand up in front of a camera and as you said, Anne, gave a short sound bite related to the case without rambling on. And lawyers can be great at this, but they can definitely need some additional support. Where there are a lot of lawyers out there who want to give all of the information and paint a very big story because lawyers are natural storytellers. But in the immediate situation, that’s not necessarily the type of communication that you need to be getting across.
What is Media Training and Why Do Lawyers Need it?Lindsey: So in your own words, what is media training and why do lawyers need it?
Anne:
Well, media training, I think we break it into three different categories. And the number one thing which you hit on right there is lawyers are generally great talkers and storytellers, however, they’re not known for being short and concise. And as you said, they kind of want to tell that whole story, which they can’t in that sound bite. They really do need to know how to nail that sound bite. So that’s the first thing that we work with lawyers on is getting them in that mindset and helping them create that 20 second sound bite. And the great news is because they are such talented talkers and storytellers and they’re smart people that they grasp it very quickly and they can turn it around and become very good at this in a very short amount of time.
The other thing we want to do, especially with TV, and it’s not just doing TV interviews, but as you know today, everything is recorded so you’re always on camera. So we really want to give them those performance skills that they need to do well in TV. And often it’s just tweaking things. What’s the right thing to wear for the camera? Body language, eye contact, working a little bit on their delivery, knowing when to pause, knowing when to smile, things like that. And again, our lawyers catch onto that very quickly. I guess the main thing is we want them to be energetic and passionate and enthusiastic. Once we can warm them up a little bit, they get it. We also do all our media training on camera so they can see for themselves how they come across and they make very quick progress.
And then the final thing is how to control the interview. And Gigi, and I believe this is so important because so many times smart people, including lawyers, they go into the interview and they think, “Well, I know my case very well. I can handle any question they want to ask me,” which is probably true. However, that’s not controlling the interview, that’s allowing the reporter to control the interview. And of course, Gigi and I know that because we were the ones controlling the interviews for so many years.
So what we try to teach them is how they can control the interview and control the headline and the main takeaway. So we work with them to think before they go into the interview and have a strategy. “What do you want that main takeaway to be?” Okay, let’s create some messaging, four or five 20 second sound bites that kind of really make that point. And then we urge them to consider what questions will be asked and in most cases you can predict, I would say 95% of the questions. And then we also tell them, “Okay, think about where your weaknesses are, what could those negative questions be?” And come up with responses to that.
And then we work with them on bridging back to their main messaging. So when they have a question they don’t want to answer or they think is irrelevant or negative for their case, how they can gracefully pivot back to their main messaging, not seeming like, “No comment,” or, “I can’t address that.” But gracefully moving back to what they really want to talk about. I think that makes the biggest difference in interviews and I think that Gigi would agree with me.
Gigi:
I do agree definitely with Anne. I mean, it’s important, Anne always says this, and I agree wholeheartedly, is you want to create your headline and then keep referring back to it. And what Anne was saying too about bridging back, which we can get into in a minute, but is you don’t ever want to repeat a negative statement. That’s really crucial. You want to know how to answer and how to reply to those negative questions. But you never want to take part of the question and repeat it back in your answer so that they could just use that negative clip and you look like you’re being really defensive.
Lindsey:
That’s a great point and a great tip. You want to be able to control that message and only put out exactly what you want other people to understand and take out of what you’re presenting. But with so many important factors that go into getting in front of the camera and so many unknowns, I know a lot of lawyers who are just purely intimidated and because of that, they dodge the camera and they shy away.
Why Personal Injury Lawyers Need to Be On CameraLindsey: So why is it important for personal injury lawyers to get in front of the camera in the first place?
Anne:
Well, I think it’s especially important for personal injury attorneys because they really need to get out there and frame their cases. We kind of have a program with our attorneys where they’ll get ready to file a case and they will give us an advanced copy of the complaint and we’ll look at it and with them, we’ll work out a media strategy so we can roll that out to the media. So they get out in front of the case and they can frame it to the public.
And unlike corporate law, which a lot of people don’t even understand mergers and acquisitions and all that stuff, the public can really relate to personal injury law because it usually involves regular people like ourselves who something unfortunate and really terrible has happened to. They need justice and they need some kind of compensation because oftentimes they have lifelong injuries. So they have compelling stories and their stories that the public can relate to and are interested in. So it’s really good to get in front of the case.
What we’ve found is that with our attorneys, oftentimes it has prompted settlements because the insurance companies or whoever are watching all this media coverage and they’re like, “Whoa, this is not good. And think how it would be in front of a jury. We better just cut our losses and settle the case.” And that often happens. I think the other thing that’s good for the personal injury attorneys is it gets their name out there and people know who they are.
And as you know, when people are the victim of some kind of negligence or medical malpractice or whatever it may be, they’re usually regular people who have had no contact with the legal system. They don’t know who to call or who to use or who’s good. And so they can remember, “Hey, I saw that lawyer on TV and he was talking about that birth injury case,” or, “This attorney was talking about abuse at a nursing home,” or whatever the topic may be. So I think it really helps attract clients and also referrals from other attorneys.
Lindsey:
Absolutely.
Gigi:
Oh, I’m sorry. I just wanted to add one other thing is that media training often makes people feel comfortable. They might be afraid before, but once they do media training and have some tools and experience in practice, they’re confident and comfortable in front of the camera rather than afraid.
Anne:
And we really do a lot of interview prep with our clients too. We come up with the questions that we think the reporters will ask and including the negative ones. And we really do mock interviews with them and with their clients because oftentimes we have the clients talk to the media too. So we really work a lot with them before they go in front of the media. So I think as to Gigi’s point, I think our clients, by the time they get in front of the media, they probably feel pretty confident.
Lindsey:
It becomes second nature the more that they practice. As with anything.
Anne:
[inaudible 00:13:52] them. Our interviews are going to be a lot harder than the ones you do for [inaudible 00:13:56]. If you’re okay with our interviews, you’ll be okay when you go in front of the full press.
Non-News Camera Opportunities for LawyersLindsey:
That’s funny. Well, and we’ve been talking a lot about going in front of the press and talking in front of the camera, but other than news interviews, what opportunities do lawyers have to get in front of the camera in a non-new setting?
Gigi:
Well, there’s so many different ways that people speak nowadays. I mean, for instance, that presentations may be at a bar association event or speeches or community forums, and you have one bad comment out there and it can haunt you forever. So there are so many different places that we end up speaking and being asked to speak at that it’s really important to be able to have the confidence and know what you’re going to say and how to say it.
Anne:
Gigi’s so right. And today, obviously everything is recorded, everything is streamed. People can watch it online. So there’s really nowhere to hide in that extent. I think you almost have to think, “I’m always going to be recorded, so I always have to be camera ready.” And also, a lot of law firms today, they do their own videos that they put on their websites. They do social media where they appear on camera. A lot of them have video bios. So it really is, it really needs to be in their toolbox today in 2023.
Lindsey:
That’s so true. And in today’s attention-driven economy, it’s all about where people’s eyeballs are and if you aren’t giving them something to watch, then somebody else will. And you need to make sure that the content that you’re producing and anytime that you get in front of the camera and make something new, that it is a representation of who you are and your capabilities and your eloquence. and not look like you’re being held ransom and being forced to be put in front of the camera.
So I mean, having those skills are going to be, and a lot of times that first introduction that you have to a potential client, and it’ll be the first time that they get to meet you quote unquote, “face to face”, so being media trained and being able to project your best voice and your true brand while not tripping over your tongue is a huge asset.
What Should Personal Injury Lawyers Make Content About?Lindsey: And so when creating their own content and media opportunities, what should personal injury lawyers be talking about?
Anne:
You mean when they’re creating content for social media and whatnot?
Lindsey:
For social media, for their websites, what types of things are going to generate interest?
Anne:
Well, a few things, and obviously they should talk about their cases, right? I think a lot of the lawyers that we work with, we check the wires in the morning and we see what’s going on. And when we find interesting cases that, especially when they pertain to the kind of law that they handle. We might find a case in North Carolina and we’ll put it on our lawyer’s Facebook page or social media in Chicago because that happens to be his specialty and he can make a little comment on it or whatever. It just kind of reminds his followers or her followers that this guy or woman has an expertise in this and they know a lot about this. So we definitely put newsworthy cases on there that pertain to their practice.
Also, a lot of personal information now, as Gigi had mentioned before, when they give speeches or presentations or awards or things like that. But also we’ve found, especially for personal injury lawyers, it’s good for them to give some personal information about themselves. Things that they can form a connection with followers and people can relate to them. I had one client, he was actually my first legal client, and he and his wife who was also an attorney at the firm, had two sets of triplets within two years. So that-
Lindsey:
Gee wiz.
Anne:
… Now the kids are in high school, but when I started working for them, they were babies. And that just caught on, and everybody related to that, not just followers, but future clients, other attorneys. So it really, I think, humanized them. And Gigi worked on a great project for another one of our clients, and I’ll let her tell you about it because she was the lead on it, but it was really beneficial for the client.
Gigi:
So it turns out that this client had a heart attack and died on, well, died. He was-
Anne:
Thankfully, he didn’t die.
Gigi:
… He didn’t die. But he was on the golf course and a caddy saw and ran over and gave CPR and saved his life. He was in a coma for 12 days and had some different procedures done, but he lived and he’s fine, and he’s back at work and he is leading his firm. And so what we did was we suggested doing a CPR class with the fire department for some of the attorney’s at the firm and some of his friends. We got the story on the front page of the Chicago Tribune, and everybody was fascinated by that story.
He ended up paying for the college, for the rest of college for the caddy.
Lindsey:
Wow.
Gigi:
And just a really heartwarming story and people really responded to that. He heard from so many people. Some people who had referred cases to him earlier, ended up reaching out to him that he hadn’t heard from them in years. So personal stories like that are always of interest to people, to everybody.
Lindsey:
And it humanizes them.
Anne:
It really does. It humanizes them. It really does. It humanizes them. And in his case, he also, he used it as an opportunity to encourage people to really learn CPR. Because when he was out on the golf course, none of the people with him really knew it, or they hadn’t done it for years and years. And this young caddy had thankfully recently taken a class in it, so he ran over and he really saved his life and got his heart going until the paramedics came and obviously took over. So it was also a way to educate the public about the importance of this.
And that’s another point because a lot of personal injury lawyers, as you know, are very involved with causes or charities. So that’s another thing that we do, is really promote what they’re involved in. And most of our lawyers are involved in a wide range of good things and so we want to get some coverage for that too.
Lindsey:
Highlighting and humanizing the lawyers, showing where their real heart is. I mean, unfortunately, there are a lot of bad lawyers out there who have given the legal community somewhat of a rough rep reputation to combat. So the more you can humanize and connect on a personal level and showcase the goodness of the vast majority of lawyers who are out there, that is, that’s a great tip.
How to Get More Comfortable In Front of the CameraLindsey: And kind of going back to media training for some other tips, what are some ways that personal injury lawyers can get more comfortable with being in front of the general public going forward with these types of stories and being more comfortable in front of the camera itself?
Anne:
Well, I definitely think to prepare. Too many people don’t prepare. They just go and they think they can wing it because they’re a good talker and that’s always when they get in trouble. I’ve dealt with so many great communicators, public figures that, I mean to the very top level, even presidents of the United States and even these people need to prepare for interviews. As good as they are and as much experience as they have, they still have to prepare.
So I would say to the attorneys, really prepare, get your talking points, decide what your main messaging is, and practice. Practice, practice, practice. And Gigi and I always tell our clients to really practice saying the stuff out loud. We come in with cameras and we help people do it in a very formal way, but just record yourself on your iPhone and you can see how you come across and you can make tweaks. So that’s what I would recommend. Gigi, do you have any other thoughts there?
Controlling the InterviewGigi:
Well, practice out loud is so important as Anne, as you just said. I mean, there’s so many tips that we give in media training. The first thing that’s so important, as Anne mentioned earlier, is to decide what you want the headline to be and that way you can control the interview and you want to keep pivoting back to it.
She also mentioned about lawyers being great talkers but it’s hard sometimes for them to keep it to short sound bites. You want your sound bite. That’s when they use a clip of you talking to be about no more than 20 seconds. And you don’t have to tell everything right off the bat. In print interviews, you can do a little longer, but not too much longer. And you don’t have to say everything in the first answer. It’s a conversation. You want to keep it flowing.
As we discussed earlier, you want to anticipate negative questions and prepare responses for them and this is where bridge comments come in handy. We can talk more about that later, but it’s kind of the, “Oh, well that’s a really good point you make, but let me tell you what I think is really important,” and you can come back to that and that gets you out of difficult parts of questions. And also, Anne’s really good about this, talking about when crafting your sound bites, you want to begin with a key statement or a declarative sentence, then back it up with a fact or anecdote and reasons that back it up or explain it. I don’t know if you can give an example off the top of your head, Anne, of that, you’re really good at-
Anne:
Okay, let me try. You’re putting me on the spot here.
Lindsey:
Not to put you on the spot.
Anne:
So it is good to start with a declarative sentence and then you want to back it up with an example, an anecdote or a statistic. And you want to keep it about 20 seconds. Okay, so let me try off the top of my head. In 2023, media training is really essential for anyone who’s going to be talking to reporters. On TV, you have about 20 seconds to make your point and if you mess up, it will live on forever in digital content. So you really want to make sure that you put your best foot forward.
Gigi:
Great, excellent example.
Lindsey:
Very nice, nicely done.
Gigi:
Anne talks in sound bites. She’s really good at that.
Anne:
Well, that comes from working on TV for 30 years. But people learn it very quickly and the lawyers really do pick up on it because, and we said this before, but it’s so true, they are good storytellers and talkers and they’re smart people, so they get it very quickly.
How to Get Off of an Unwanted Topic in an Interview: The BridgeLindsey:
So I’m going to put you on the spot with another example. We’ve been talking a little bit about this, the bridge technique. And so if a lawyer is in an interview and they feel like it’s not going well, they’re going down a rabbit hole, they’re getting asked questions that they aren’t prepared for, a question comes at them and they need to pivot the conversation. Can you give me an example of this? I’m just going to put you on the spot.
Anne:
Well ask us a question that we don’t want to answer. Think about a snarky question that we’re not going to want to answer.
Lindsey:
Oh my, now you just turned the tables on me and now I’m going to be put on this spot.
Is Media Training Expensive?Anne:
Okay, why don’t you ask us something like, “Well, but isn’t media training really expensive?”
Lindsey:
Oh my goodness. But isn’t media training so expensive?
Anne:
Well, no matter what your business is, whether it’s a law firm or whether it’s a restaurant, you have to make some investments in the business. And as a lawyer, you really have to talk to the media that is part of your job. So you want to make sure you put your best foot forward and you have the skills and the knowledge you need to do strong media interviews. The payoff down the road will be great for you and the firm.
Lindsey:
I’m going to do it again because it took me that long to think of another question.
Anne:
What?
Can’t I Just Submit a Press Release Instead of Talking on Camera?Lindsey:
But can’t I just submit a press release or a written interview without getting in front of the camera?
Anne:
Well, news organizations in many cases receive 500 to 1,000 news releases a day. And especially when you’re dealing with TV, they need the picture, they need the sound bite. So a news release really isn’t going to cut it in many cases so you really do need to know how to speak on camera. And today, even in print, they are recording your interviews and they’re often having the full interview on their website for people to watch on camera. In fact, just before we got… So that’s my answer.
But away from my answer is that just before we got on, Gigi will laugh at this because she knows I’m obsessed with the Royal family. But anyways, just before we went on, I was reading a New York Times story about Prince Harry’s interview on the Colbert Show and they, sure enough, they had a link to the whole interview. So it wasn’t just the print story and I was watching the link before we went on. So today, everything is really on camera, even print interviews, right, Gigi?
Gigi:
Absolutely. And keep in mind, you ask about a press release. “Can’t I send a press release?” Well, a press release can’t talk and somebody else can. And if you don’t, your competition will and so you can’t be afraid. And as Anne said, they’re recording even print interviews but for TV and radio, if you don’t give a sound bite and can’t appear on camera, you don’t get the interview. So you have to really be prepared.
Bridge Statement ExamplesAnd the bridge statements, Lindsey, that you asked about earlier, I mean, one of the things that I would love is to say something like, “Well, you know what? That’s not the issue. I think here’s what my viewpoint is.” Or, “Well, here is what I am certain of.” And you hear politicians do this all the time, “Before I answer that, let me just say this,” and then you answer your question. So especially in TV and radio interviews, that works because typically they’re not going to get back to it and especially if it’s live, then you’ve deflected that and you’re out of it. But for print, sometimes you’re going to have to have a backup and know what you want to say.
Oftentimes I tell people a good one to keep in your back pocket is to say, “You know what? Let me check on that and I’ll get back to you.” And sometimes they don’t get back to you, and if they do, you’re more prepared with your answer. So they’re not going to argue with that. You never want to make something up. I don’t think this is what our audience would do anyway, but you know, don’t want to say something that you’re not exactly sure of. And they’re human, they get it. You don’t have that answer. You want to check on it and get back with them and sometimes they won’t check back with you.
There’s also some other ones, some other bridge statements like, “First, let me make this point.” And there’s other ones like, “That’s a good question, but I might have already mentioned that one.” “I’m not sure about that but what I do know is this,” and, “What I really believe is this.” So there’s lots of ways to get away from that and back to what your original message point was and that’s when you say that. And it’s okay to repeat yourself. Sometimes reporters will ask the same question several times so that you’ll say it differently and they’ll get a better something out of you that you might not want it want to have said. And we always tell people it’s okay to repeat. You do not have to come up with something different.
Anne:
And then sometimes you can just change the wording around just a little bit so you don’t sound like a robot.
Gigi:
Right.
Anne:
But you can do that. And I covered city hall in Chicago for many years and there was just one reporter and she just would never let things go. And she would, one time we counted and she asked the mayor the same question 52 times. But to his credit, he stayed on message and finally even she as relentless as she was, had to move on.
Lindsey:
Those are all really great ways to control the narrative and really take control over the message that you want to project. Because obviously the media has an agenda when they are trying to get an interview done. They want to get that clip that is a little bit more interesting or intriguing than maybe the facts really are. And it sounds like there’s a real struggle going on between what the media wants to get out of somebody versus the narrative that they are trying to control and you need to be able to come prepared for that and not fall into those traps.
Contact Gigi and Anne at Legal Communication StrategiesI mean, we could go on about this all day long, but I will let listeners get in touch with you directly. So if somebody does want to learn more, if they have an upcoming interview, if they want some general techniques and tips before they get in front of the camera to record a podcast or record a YouTube video, how can somebody get in touch with you?
Anne:
Well, we’re based in Chicago, but we do things all over the country, and so they can just call Gigi or I. Our contact or email us. Our contact information is going to be on your podcast page, I believe. So just give us a call or shoot us an email.
Lindsey:
All right. Well thank you so much for your time.
How Do You Create Raving Fans? Joining us today is Chris Earley, a Personal Injury Lawyer in Massachusetts who is a magnet for raving fans.
When it comes to marketing, there is simply no better lead than a referral. Why? Because people who don’t know you don’t trust you. But a prospective client will trust someone they can relate to you’re your former clients. But it isn’t enough to have a handful of 5-star reviews that you begged and pleaded for through mass, repetitive emails. Everyone has that.
In this podcast, Chris answers some of these questions:
- You are the master at creating raving fans. What is a raving fan?
- Why is it important to develop these kinds of relationships?
- Your attitude towards generating raving fans goes beyond simply having good reviews. You start with the person first and how you can help them. Can you expand on that a bit?
- How do you go about developing the raving fan relationship?
- How much time do you spend developing these relationships?
- How do you get your raving fans to leave reviews or send referral cases?
- What are some ways that you keep in touch with your raving fans after their case closes?
- What percentage of your client leads are referral based?
- Do you find it is easier to connect with a client who comes from a referral v one who comes from a cold call?
- Why do you think other lawyers might struggle with this initially and how can they overcome it?
Visit the Earley Law Group online here https://www.chrisearley.com/ and be sure to check out their extended family of raving fans here: https://www.chrisearley.com/client-testimonials.html.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. When it comes to marketing, there is simply no better lead than a referral. Why? Because people who don’t know you don’t necessarily trust you. But a perspective client will trust somebody they can relate to, i.e., your former clients, but it isn’t enough to have a handful of five-star reviews that you begged and pleaded for through mass repetitive emails. Everyone has that. What you need are raving fans who can’t wait to tell their friends, family, and random strangers how great you are and how much money you got them. You want the kind of fan who hears someone just say the word car accident from across the room, they drop everything and sing your praises. You want an army of walking billboards. Joining us today is Chris Earley, a personal injury lawyer in Massachusetts who is a magnet for raving fans. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Chris:
Thank you, Lindsey. It’s my pleasure. Thank you so much.
Lindsey:
Well, you are the master at creating raving fans. So let’s start by telling me a little bit about what is a raving fan.
Chris:
I am hyper focused and dialed in on doing the best job that me and my team can do to make our clients happy. I feel that clients, when it comes to lawyers, don’t ask for a lot. I don’t think the standard is so high that that does make them happy. But if you can over-deliver, if you can really impress them, they more times than not will become a raving fan. The more you dial in on customer service, holding their hand through the process from start to finish, from intake to end of the case, they remember how you made them feel. We’ll get into that about relationships. It’s not just a transactional attorney-client, cold relationship, it’s a warm, human relationship. That I try to humanize the relationship. I try to make clients feel really welcome. We call it here, our extended family.
It’s not just group of clients, it’s an extended family of people who trust us to handle their case. We take that very seriously and we really do focus on doing everything we possibly can, because I think that’s where the magic happens. You make a large group of people happy and you continue to do that over time, that compounds, that gets to be very favorable math for you in terms of growing a business, attracting more clients. That’s sort of a macro 50,000-foot view of how I approach client service and doing our darnedest to try to create raving fans.
Lindsey:
Well, that in and of itself is a great starting point, and creating that humanizing experience and not having that holier than thou where I know law and you know your accident kind of mentality. It’s not like a settlement mill. When it comes to personal injury law, it’s a little bit of a different type of clientele experience than if somebody were to go into a shop, or even go to another service industry and let’s say have a graphic designer design them something. It’s a very different type of experience because you are hoping to not necessarily have repeat clients, because that would mean that they’re in another accident or injured again. It changes that dynamic and it changes the importance of having a classic style referral where you’re hoping to get these people in the door all the time. That being said, where you’re not necessarily trying to get them back to you a million times over, why is it important to develop these kinds of relationships?
Chris:
Well, I read a book, I can’t remember the title, but the idea was everyone knows a few hundred people. That goes back to the math approach. If everyone knows a few hundred people, if you make a few hundred people or a few thousand people happy, that’s a lot of people you’re potentially impacting because everyone knows a large amount of people. That creates exponential growth. Good customer service drives the growth of a law practice. Conversely, if you provide bad customer service, it’s going to tank your practice. You’re never going to grow, it’s just going to flounder. Now you brought up other service industries and that’s really important, Lindsey, because people generally, as I said before, don’t like lawyers. Let’s just get in front of that and be real and honest about that. It’s just the way it is. Everything we do here is to rile against that, to reframe the perspective on how you perceive attorneys to really be. What brings them to our doorstep is an unfortunate event. There was some precipitating event, there was an accident, something bad happened. They’re not calling us because something good happened, so they’re low.
Lindsey:
Right. They’re not having a great day.
Chris:
They’re having a bad day, right. They may be out of work. They’re [inaudible 00:04:50] medical expenses. They may have kids. They’re stressed out, “How am I going to provide for my kids? What am I going to do?” No matter what kind of law you’re in, I don’t care if it’s divorce, real estate, personal injury, criminal, you have to be sensitive to fact that there’s a problem. Again, the more you can humanize the relationship, the more you can hold their hand, the more you can demonstrate, “We’re not your average lawyer. You have really made a good decision.” Lindsey, we do that. Once the client signs up…
There’s something called buyer’s regret. A lot of people say, “Did I hire the right lawyer? Did I buy the right product at store today? Did I make the right decision?” Doubt creeps in. So at the very beginning of representation, we get ahead of that. We will send an automatic email that says, “Welcome to our extended family. You’ve just made a great decision.” Just really starting the relationship off on a bright, positive note because the whole name of the game for me is to show up differently. We’re not your average firm, care about you, care doing good work. Because at the end of the day, it’s not really about the result you get, the amount of settlement. Whatever it is, if you give them a good service, if you communicate and just treat them really well and show you care, I mean, they’re going to love you no matter what happens. That’s what they care about, it’s how you make them feel, for sure.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. That’s a huge, I mean, selling point for choosing one lawyer versus another. You will always know that you have picked somebody by the way that they make you feel at the end of it. They won’t necessarily know, “I could have gotten four million versus two and a half,” because they won’t know how that played out. But they will absolutely know how you made them feel throughout the process. If you can give them a warm, supported, favorable experience all around, they’ll know that they made the right decision regardless. I love that you started off by assuring them that they have made the right decision, welcoming them in. What are some of the other things that you do throughout the client process to let them know that they are part of your family, and continue that supported feeling?
Chris:
I hate to beat a dead horse and say it again, but humanize things. I come from a very unusual background. I come from a family of homelessness, there’s addiction, and I bring that up in an email a few days into the relationship to explain, “Hey, this is my story. I may not come from the pedigree you may think I come from, the typical lawyer background.” Instantly that can create affinity for someone who maybe has someone in the family or knows someone who has had struggles. That really helps me to, again, get ahead of any negative perception that they may have lawyers. Say, “I’m different. This is my story and this is the kind of law firm that I have. This is the law firm that I’ve built, and that firm is built with team members who are really capable.” Then I kind of pass off the team member, because I’m developing the business, growing the business.
This is where, Lindsey, we have to have systems in place so those good feelings remain. Because no matter if you start off strong and the client’s like, “Oh, wow, this is great. This guy Earley, I just made a great decision.” But then if you fall off and the system are on in place, you’re not calling clients back, then we’re in trouble. That can’t happen. We got to have a systemized approach from start to finish. I think everything should be written down, process in terms of how we do things, never fly by the seat of our pants, and arbitrary Retimax, everything is organized, organized structure. That’s going to speed up the case, right?
Lindsey:
Yeah, I’m sure.
Chris:
That’s important for the client. The client ultimately… They care about the resolution, they want to get the case done. They don’t want to drag on, so let’s speed that up, make them feel good, show them we care. If we learn that the client had a death in the family, we send a card. If we find out there was a good event, a graduation, a promotion, marriage, whatever, we send a card congratulating them, just being sensitive to the moment and just showing up differently that, “We care about your success, we care about the struggle you may be experiencing,” whatever that may be in their life. I’m always preaching and teaching my team. “Send handwritten cards, take the time, send a card, show you care.”
What we’re going to do in the new year is to not just give clients updates about the case like, “Hey, Lindsey, just give me an update in your case.” More like, “Lindsey, how are you? How are you doing?” Checking in on you as a person, and then we can talk about the case, but the case is secondary. The primary thing is, “How are you? What’s going on?” Then getting into the legal case. I’m really trying to focus on that. Just try to take it up a level to just impress them that we care and we mean it. We talk the talk and we walked the walk, we’re legit. More times than not they see that and they respond really favorably. But we can’t make everyone happy. Not everyone is a raving fan. Not everyone’s like, “Oh my god, this guy Earley…” You can’t make them all happy no matter how hard you try, but…
Lindsey:
I love that so much. So many attorneys that we talk to tell us, “Yeah, we want them to feel like family. We want this to be their home. We want to make them feel supported.” But they miss some of the most obvious things. It goes beyond their case. It goes to that humanizing experience. You don’t know how many people are out there who haven’t had somebody genuinely ask them, “How are you?” and mean it. Not just want to hear an, “Oh, I’m fine,” and feel just pressured to skip over it. But have somebody actually care about how they’re doing. It’s an obvious thing for a friend to a friend, or a family member to a family member, but from a lawyer to a client that’s a step that needs to be taken seriously when you’re trying to make that genuine connection. But the other part of it that goes into it, the trade-off is time, because that must take a lot of time to keep track of people’s birthdays and graduations and deaths and checking in. How much extra time do you realistically see you and your team spending making these connections?
Chris:
Well, the birthdays are pretty easy because that’s tracked through the case management software. So that’s easy to stay on top of. Now in terms of anniversary, say like a wedding anniversary, we haven’t really taken it that step, a recurring anniversary, more like a big life event, “Congratulations.” But that’s a good idea that you’re causing me to think about, what you just said is, setting… Well, I’ve thought about that happy anniversary crap, but what if they get divorced? So trying to think of something that can sustain over time and not be subject to whims and changes in one’s life. But people really remember that stuff, the care touches them. Obviously we want to be in a position where if they hear someone who had an accent, we want to be the first top of mind. We want to be the person that they think of, because generally people want people to have the good experience that they had. They want to give that to someone else if they can.
I think people feel kind of like a hero in a certain… Not to be cheesy, but kind of a hero of helping someone to find a good landing spot for a legal need or car mechanic, real estate agent, whatever it may be. I think we drive satisfaction. That, I think, and I’ll probably get into this more, but just referrals. We want to always remind that we do want referrals. That’s how we’re built is on client referrals. That’s part of the culture here, it’s woven into the fabric, built on referrals. We have signs in the waiting area of our office. It’s in our drip email campaigns, it’s in our letters to clients. Always reinforcing the message that, “We’re here for you.”
Even if it’s not a person under your case, we have newsletters that go out and we say in there, “We’re your trusted legal advisor, whether it be a divorce, criminal case, anything. If you have a legal need, call us.” We want to be that hub. When a legal need strikes, we want to be the person you think of because we have a great network. If your cousin needs an attorney for some matter we don’t handle, we’ve got a nice Rolodex of attorneys we can connect. We want to be that trusted legal advisor so they always think of us when they or someone in their orbit needs legal help.
Lindsey:
Well, and this goes back to what you were saying and the idea that we just kind of brainstormed there about the sending out the anniversary card. If you do find out they’re divorced, “Well, so sorry to hear that this is going on, but here’s somebody that I can connect you with if you need some help.”
Chris:
Right, right.
Lindsey:
Obviously that would be a little bit cheesy to do it exactly that way, but if you are keeping regular tabs on somebody and they’re genuinely telling you what’s going on in their lives, you can say, “Oh, sorry that your pipe exploded. Here’s a great plumber that I know.” Or, “Sorry that your cousin is going through this divorce and she’s ending up at your house. I know somebody who might be able to help her out with that.” By keeping that constant flow of communication open and a genuine communication going, you’ll know what needs that you’re able to meet and how you’re able to help provide them beyond their initial personal injury case. But it does start with that communication piece and that humanization piece where I can relate to you, I can help you, you can me, and it’s a true, genuine relationship-
Chris:
Yes, yes.
Lindsey:
… built on support.
Chris:
Two-way street. Absolutely.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. So after the case closes, you mentioned the email drip campaign, you mentioned the birthday cards. Is there anything else that you do with your clients? Or we talked about referral partners a little bit. What do you do to keep in touch with them on an ongoing basis?
Chris:
As it relates to current or former clients, they all get a weekly email. I call it a weekly email blast, but it’s not spammy, it’s actually really well thought of, the subject line we put great thought into. We have a nice open rate somewhere in the low to mid 30s. So people open it, they generally don’t unsubscribe. We just try to give a positive message. I’ll have a quote in there, maybe a book recommendation, and a gentle reminder, “We love your referrals, thank you so much,” because we’re perpetuating a culture of receiving referrals. We never want to assume people… I would encourage anyone listening to this, never assume your clients know that you want referrals. They may not even think you need referrals. It may not have entered their brain. You need to be, I believe, intentional and educate clients always. Never assume that they know you want referrals, educate them about that need.
Back to your question, Lindsey. Basically unless they unsubscribe, they get 52 emails. I like to send it Thursday morning at 6:30 in the morning. Hopefully it’s the first email top of their inbox. Because Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesdays, people are kind of busy with life. It’s not Friday, we’re kind of already on the weekend basically, so Thursday I feel like is a good point that’s worked well for us. I also send out a newsletter. I would call it a very high quality newsletter. It’s not boring legal mumbo jumbo. So my family… My wife is named Rory, so we have Rory’s recipe, we have just a bunch of content, not about the law. Now I’ve written a book about car accidents, we have an excerpt there maybe about car accidents or an excerpt about slip and falls, always messaging and reminding those things that we do.
Lindsey, even if someone doesn’t become a client, if they raise their hand and they show interest but they don’t sign or we decline their case, we still put them into this communication cycle. I think two people have called and say, “I want off your newsletter.” That’s fine, no problem at all. We take you off immediately. But that’s the power of a CRM, that’s the power of the technology. I really encourage anyone, Lindsey, listening to this, always build out your list. Make sure you have nice software that you can segment people in your list, you can segment clients, attorneys, you can segment clients by type of case you handle for them. That’s 58 touches a year to the client, 52 emails, every other month newsletter.
We do for attorneys, I double down the emails I sent. The attorneys who are in my network, I send them that same email that the clients get on Thursdays, but I send them an email on Tuesdays just for attorneys. I call it my Weekly Practice Management Tip that I sort of riff on what works that I find success with business things, that I find to not work well with the business. They also get the paper newsletter in the mail. But additionally they get a attorney newsletter in the mail every single month. A lot of moving parts, a lot of direct mail, just constantly showing up. Because I just told a fellow attorney this yesterday, an attorney in my network is hearing from me like 130 times… literally 130 times, or 124, something like that. 124, 130 times a year. I’m trying to ratchet that number up on the client side, because the attorney communication is pretty high, which is what I want.
But there’s that pressure, Lindsey. You don’t want to just be… I don’t want to just give out bad content. I really care about this and pump out good stuff. I write differently for lawyers, write differently for my clients. But I think it’s time to probably get in contact with the former clients more, maybe 52 emails and six newsletters could be maybe tweaked upon a little bit. If the client refers a case, I always say to my team, “We got a referral from an existing client, he’s referred a bunch of cases. I’m going to send him a handwritten card today saying, ‘Thank you so much for once again sending us a case.'” I do it today so he’ll see the date. He’ll see I didn’t wait a week to send that card.
Lindsey:
Right. That it was a priority for you.
Chris:
It was a priority. I keep sending this guy cards because it’s like, again, we’re fostering, we’re promoting that gratitude, “We appreciate you.” I do. Just one final thing on that, Lindsey. People who referred by other clients generally are easy clients to deal with. They generally have at least a decent to possibly even a very good case. They’re easier to work with, easier to handle than someone maybe a call to call who just saw us online or a random. That is, I think, so important is to really… Because I got to make sure this client referred… I got to make sure that former client who referred that client to us today, make sure they have a awesome experience. Because if not, he’s going to look bad and I can’t let that happen.
Lindsey:
No, absolutely. Yeah, I’m sure that that relationship is so much easier to generate because there’s that inherent trust factor that’s already being transferred from your former client to your new relationship. That is something that no amount of marketing, no amount of content can ever buy, is that warm lead where you already have that foundation built in. So you’re working on getting referrals from former clients, you have referral partnerships within your legal network. How many of your… What percentage of your cases, I should ask, is coming from those referrals?
Chris:
Great question. Before I answer that, I can see that number keeps ticking up. The more we really dial in and focus on this more sensitive we are to the need to really drive that, the higher it goes. I think it’s around 10% right now. But that continues to go up with time. It’s like this snowball that it grows but you have to nurture, you have to work on it. You can’t neglect it. Right now I’d say about 10%. But that didn’t require any marketing dollars. That’s a referral. That’s just like gold. You were alluding to this just a second ago. They come pre-sold, they’re warm. They’re like, “Hey, I’m ready to sign. Let’s go.” There’s no sales required. They’re easy to convert. They are just easier to deal with. That’s just a perfect client. When I see a referral, it’s fantastic. I love it. It’s so important.
Lindsey:
Yeah. There’s something just so organic about that, and it’s like you feel like you know a piece of this person because you’ve already seen their friend, and you know that there has to be something in common there. I mean in general, this is just a much more human approach to practicing not just law but business in general. I know that there are a lot of lawyers out there who would like to have this kind of relationship, they would like to turn their law firm into something that is more of a family experience, a friendly experience. But so many lawyers struggle with that. Where do you think that struggle might be coming from and how can they overcome that?
Chris:
Well, I think if you’re doing what everyone else is doing, you’re average. I think sometimes we have to go against the grain, be a little bit contrarian. I mean, a lot of the stuff that I do is unorthodox because I really am hyper focused. It keeps me up at night thinking, “How can I improve the client experience?” I have a lot of peers who just neglect clients and they take them for granted, and their reviews just plummet, they go down. They get killed in those reviews, and I do everything I can. I would encourage any attorney on here, if you really care about growing a firm, I think it’s about culture. I have to set the culture. This is the kind of firm that I’m trying to build. Then the team members that I bring on feel the same way, they subscribe to that culture.
The way I treat my team members is the way they treat the clients. This is a cohesive culture of caring, of concern. I would encourage anyone on the call to develop your core values. Your core values, put into words your culture. Culture’s kind of hard to define. It’s a little bit amorphous and vague, but if you can reduce it to five or seven, no more than nine core values, put that on your website, put that in your reception area in your office, just always be focused on the culture. I’ve seen lawyers, they’re much further away, they’re much more advanced in their success than me. I look at them and I see, “Okay, those guys and gals have strong cultures. Their team members stick around for years and years, some decades. Their clients refer. Attorneys refer them because they’re trusted.” Build the culture and never let that be neglected; I think amazing things happen. It’s a constant effort every day. Making it better, keeping that alive and flourishing I think is a good idea. I think it’s how you can really run and manage a great firm.
Lindsey:
No, I absolutely agree. You can’t expect for your team members to be treating your clients like you would want them to be treated if you’re not actively treating your team members that way. You need to make sure that your team members feel like family, that they feel like people, that they don’t feel like they’re being talked down to or-
Chris:
100%.
Lindsey:
That energy will be passed on, and it will be a very genuine relationship as to one that’s kind of like fake smiles and bubbles.
Chris:
100%. Lindsey, I think it’s more important how I treat my staff than how I treat my clients, because I’m going out of business if my team just up and quit, right?
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Chris:
That’s not good. I need my team. So I put more focus in the team because they come to work every day, they bust their butts, so I’m focused, dialed in on, “How can I make this a better experience for you? How can I make this a satisfying experience? How can I make it so that you are excelling, that you are growing?” Then I focus on the client. It’s not all about the client. To me it’s about the team, then that’s how I think we get raving fans ultimately.
Lindsey:
That’s fantastic. Well, Chris, thank you so much for your time today.
Chris:
Of course.
Lindsey:
I really appreciate you telling us more about this raving fan concept, and showing us a little bit more humanity and a great way to approach the practice of law. I know that there are a few videos out there that you’ve made, and we’ll be sure to put links to those in there if listeners want to get some more information. But again, thank you so much for your time today.
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield.
As I mentioned in an earlier podcast – All About Backlinks for Law Firms – law firms who show up on the first page of Google have typically all purchased links. As I also mentioned, it is officially against Google’s guidelines to purchase backlinks, but lawyers do it anyway and it has helped substantially…until now.
On December 14th 2022, Google rolled out their December 2022 Link Spam update. This is Google’s biggest fight yet against inorganic link building. They are using an AI-based spam prevention system called SpamBrain to identify sites that sell inorganic links and discredit the link’s power. While it will not actively penalize sites that buy and sell links, it will nullify the credit from any unnatural links.
It will take about two weeks to fully roll out, but I anticipate that you will begin to see the results of this launch within the next month.
So, what does this mean for you?
Let’s say your law firm is on page 1 of Google’s search results, but only because you bought a bunch of links from spammy websites – more likely, your SEO company bought a ton of dime-a-dozen links in an effort to quickly boost you to the top.
This update will make is so that those links never existed. It won’t actively penalize your website, but it will discredit all of those links and your site will likely slip in the search rankings.
However, many of your competitors will also be impacted by this update, so they will fall in the rankings as well.
On the other hand, if you have great links from real sites – like news sites and credible publications with strong journalistic standards, you will get the added bonus of gaining more traction over those who tried to take shortcuts.
If you have more questions about this update or how to keep the traction you have built for your site, feel free to contact me at optimizemyfirm.com
Personal Injury Marketing Minute #38 features Paul Stutler, the founder of Theo. In this podcast, Paul explains Theo, a settlement risk analysis tool that uses data to calculate the potential outcomes of settlement offers.
In this podcast, you will learn:
- How Paul identified the need for Theo
- Theo’s process
- What exactly does the Theo method tell us?
- Information needed to provide assessment
Check out Theo here: https://www.theo-law.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Personal Injury Marketing Minute #37 features John Reikes, the CEO of High Impact. In this podcast, John explains how medical animations are used in jury trials.
High Impact is a full-service technical animation studio that creates custom animations for personal injury lawyers and other industry professionals.
In this podcast, you will learn:
- How images help in trials
- Which animations are useful for personal injury lawyers
- How long the process generally takes from start to finish
Check out High Impact here: https://www.highimpact.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon
Personal Injury Marketing Minute #36 is a mandatory, must hear podcast with Mike Liffrig, the founder of Fist Court. His clients win cases and build confidence - at no cost to them.
First Court is company that offers sophisticated jury research and alternative dispute resolution services.
In this podcast, you will learn:
Jury trials are about emotional leadership You need feedback to win cases Winning cases transforms your life and law firm
Check out First Court here: https://www.firstcourt.com/
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript: Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I'm your host, Lindsey Busfield. Fortunately, most personal injury cases settle out of court, but for those that do make it to trial odds are that you have invested countless hours and a good sum of money before it got to that point. And now you are faced with the looming uncertainty of how a jury will see things.
Lindsey:
Realistically, you have probably rehearsed what you're going to say about a million times in front of your wife, kids, dogs, and in the shower. While Fido might lend a good ear, his feedback probably doesn't contain helpful advice, but what if you could do a mock trial in front of a realistic jury and get actual feedback on how you present your case? Joining us today is Mike Liffrig, the founder of First Court, a company that offers sophisticated jury research and alternative dispute resolution services. Thank you for joining us today.
Mike:
Absolutely, Lindsey. Great pleasure to be here.
Lindsey:
Well, tell us a little bit about First Court and how you got started.
Mike:
Yeah. So Lindsey, in a nutshell, we provide emotional leadership services to lawyers. We take good cases and we help turn our lawyers into emotionally savvy beasts and that then they turn this into exceptional verdicts. They turn their good cases into great cases. That's how we look at this, and it's not a legal thing. It's very much an emotional training that we have found over the years. And I say this as a lawyer myself, I went to small town farm boy from North Dakota. I went to Michigan for law school and came back and was in an insurance defense firm for a number of years. And I wanted to mediate is how I got started in this. And at that time, the lawyers say to me, "Well, Mike, you don't know anything. You're just three years out of school. Why would we listen to you as a mediator?"
Mike:
And I said, called them some names but they were right. I mean, I didn't know anything but I said to myself, "You know what? You don't care what I think your case, but you care what Grandma Aga thinks of your case." So this was back in 1989, Lindsey, probably before you were born, I don't know. And you could go to Sears. There was a store called Sears and you could go there and plop down $600 and you could get a VHS cam quarter, one of these big old top mounted things. And I bought one of those. And every mediation I went to as mediator, I had that on a tripod behind me.
Mike:
So when they got to an impass, I said, "All right. Folks, let's have your closing argument." And I would take those closing arguments and I'd run it by just folks from that particular county and I'd record their reactions and the lawyers got a chance to see, "Ah, here's my strongest arguments. My clients saw me arguing for them. I stood up for my clients and made my case and the jurors then were the bad guys." It was very, very helpful for breaking impass that way because they would say, "This in this defendant is just so reckless. They need to be punished. Or this injured person is just unbelievable. Look at the pictures." Whatever they're going to say, they would say that.
Mike:
So it made much easier to resolve cases.
Sam Mollaei, Esq. owns 7 law firms. On today's podcast, he discusses virtual law firms, automation, time management, hiring virtual assistants, employees, focus times and more.
Get Virtual Law Firm Secrets Here: https://a.co/d/arVaC5i
Learn More About Legal Funnel Here: https://legalfunnel.com
Join Lawyer Facebook Group Here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/legalfunnel
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription coming soon.
Danny Decker is a business coach and marketing consultant. In this podcast, Danny explains how lawyers can tailor their messaging.
We are thrilled to have marketing guru Danny Decker back on our show this week to talk about how to create a messaging strategy that will speak to your clients in a way that resonates.
Danny may be contacted here https://dannydeckermarketing.com/.
Get Danny Decker & Rjon Robbins' book "The Automatic Marketing Machine" here: https://automaticmarketingmachine.com/.
Danny's previous book "Marketing Simplified" is available here: https://www.amazon.com/Marketing-Simplified-Built-Seven-Figure-Business/dp/1483493199/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
Sam Mollaei, Esq. is a legal disruptor. He pioneered the Virtual Law Firm model, building 3 multi-million dollar virtual law firms in less than 5 years.
As a lawyer he has generated over 12,000 clients online and gathered over 3,000 5.0 star Google reviews.
Sam has also helped thousands of lawyers around the world create their own profitable virtual law firm through his multi-million dollar online academy, Legal Funnel.
He's on a mission to liberate stressed and overwhelmed lawyers and lead them to wealth and freedom by building a virtual law firm.
Get Virtual Law Firm Secrets Here: https://a.co/d/arVaC5i
Learn More About Legal Funnel Here: https://legalfunnel.com
Join Lawyer Facebook Group Here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/legalfunnel
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript coming soon.
In this podcast we discuss how Google Business Profile (formerly Google My Business) pages rank in Google's three pack, also known as the "local pack".
Recent, good reviews, organic rankings and user proximity are major factors. Of course, there is a bit more to it than that.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield.
When someone searches personal injury attorney near me, there are a few types of results that pop up. You have the ads at the top. Below that is a map with a few firms' names. Lots of users click those and are directed to a nearby attorney. Getting listed in that spot is a huge benefit, but it can be a challenge. Today's podcast is all about getting your Google Business Page to show up there. Len, the founder of Optimize My Firm, is joining us today to talk about how to boost your odds of showing up in the Local Pack. What's your experience with Google My Business, now Google Business Page? Len:
Google Local started around 2004. It was about the same time I had opened my IT firm/computer repair store that was sold in 2012, and it helped drive a ton of business to our business. I remember, in about 2008, they went to the Local 10-Pack. It used to be A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K lists, so it was really easy to game. Back then, all somebody had to do was be in the center of the city. The big trick then was to just rent a UPS Store mailbox which would give you a full address, and people would show up at the top there. It was really frustrating to see certain people there, and Google was really bad about removing spam, so I was personally affected by all of Google Local's results for many years before we started doing it for other lawyers.
Len:
As for other experience, I occasionally participate in the Google Business Page product forum. I'm not there a lot, but I recently became a bronze member there. After you help enough people, it keeps you sharp staying on top of everybody's problems. If I were to spend another 500 hours there, they'd make me an expert. They call it a silver expert or something like that.
Lindsey:
We all have to have goals.
Len:
Yeah. I do lurk it from time to time and stay on top of everything that's impacting Google My Business. I'm going to actually call it Google My Business several times because it recently became Google Business Page. I don't know why they keep renaming it. It's like the seventh time they've renamed it. By the time everybody gets used to one, they change it again, but I stay on top of there. Locksmith, air-conditioning people, electricians, garage door repairmen, lawyers, they all have their own challenges, and it's just good to stay sharp.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. They're all competing for those positions in the Local Pack, that section that's right below the ads and next to the map. Does the Local Pack drive a lot of calls? Len:
Yes. It's amazing how many calls it can drive. It's funny. For personal injury lawyers specifically, we've got a couple of different case studies.
We have somebody in Southern California. They're not in Los Angeles, but they're in a city near it, in Los Angeles County. Even though they rank really well, they probably only get about 20 calls a month out of it. We have other lawyers in other areas. Maybe they're in a city of about 500,000 people and there's not nearly as much competition. In Southern California, there's a lawyer in every block. They might have less competition. They might get 200 calls a month out of it.
It's always really surprised me that people call right from the Local Pack. I mean, I know if you're looking for pizza or coffee, you might call the first thing that pops up, but I was always surprised that people didn't do more researc...
James "Jimmy" Grant from Georgia Trial Attorneys at Kirchen & Grant, LLC joins us on the podcast today to discuss how he became an attorney, started a personal injury firm and now helps other PI lawyers with litigation.
Jimmy is a true entrepreneur and plans on offering their services to other personal injury law firms all over the US.
Jimmy can be found on TikTok @AccidentAttorneyJG or you can email him at jgrant (at) 8334thewin.com. Jimmy & Co-founder Mark Kirchen started Georgia Trial Attorneys which you can visit here: https://www.gtakg.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I'm your host, Lindsay Busfield. In some markets, it can feel almost impossible to compete against all of the other law firms. Unless you have millions of dollars at your disposal for marketing, you just can't win going toe-to-toe with the Goliaths using strictly conventional techniques. So you have to get creative. Some get creative in their branding, others niche down and throw their whole budget at one target demographic. Both are great options. But James Grant has taken the traditional legal marketing model and flipped it on its head. Rather than marketing directly to consumers like everyone else is doing, Jimmy has built his law firm using B2B marketing principles, creating his own market space and dominating it. Thanks for joining us, James.
Jimmy:
Thanks, Lindsey, for having me. I'm super pumped to be on today.
Lindsey:
Oh great. We're excited to have you here. So tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into practicing law in the first place.
Jimmy:
That's always a funny story, because everyone looks at my degree and they're like, "You went to Georgia Tech? You're a civil engineer? How did you get into law?" And I look at them and say, "I don't really know, but it just kind of happened." You think you want to go one way and you end up on another direction entirely.
Lindsey:
You just stumble into greatness.
Jimmy:
I mean, some would say that, others would say I'm crazy, but you know what, it's been a fun ride. I thought I was going to be patent law. And now I own my own personal injury law firm. So weird things happen.
Lindsey:
That's fantastic. You have one life, you may as well do everything you can in it.
Jimmy:
I mean, in my eyes, it gives me a little exposure to a couple different sides of things. I've got the analytical side of my brain. Of course, I have no idea how to do math anymore. If I can't do it in an Excel or on a calculator, it doesn't happen. But that's one side of things. And then be creative on the other side. How Georgia Trial Law was started: Lindsey:
They automate that. Right. Well, you've got tools for that, you've got people for that, and you figure out how to make it work. So talk to me about your first practice and kind of how you ventured into the legal side of things.
Jimmy:
So when I first graduated law school, the number one priority's obviously passing the bar. So you put every ounce of everything into that. Luckily I was one of the lucky ones that passed the bar the first time. And then from there immediately started working at a local prosecutor's office. Georgia's a little bit different than most states. Most states, the district attorney handles everything. In Georgia, we split things up where the District Attorney handles felonies and the Solicitor General handles misdemeanors. I was working at the Solicitor General's office and got a whole lot of exposure to a whole lot of stuff really fast. I mean, I probably had, I think, 20-something trials in the 18 months that I was there just because it's churning and burning.
Lindsey:
Wow. Yeah.
Jimmy:
So then after my public service, I was like, "All right,
Danny Decker is a business coach and marketing consultant. In this podcast, Danny explains how lawyers can tailor a marketing plan.
Danny explains that business owners and attorneys need to identify their vision and the three Ms - market, message and media. The three Ms define who you're targeting, what you're telling them and how you're delivering the message.
Danny may be contacted here https://dannydeckermarketing.com/.
Get Danny Decker & Rjon Robbins' book "The Automatic Marketing Machine" here: https://automaticmarketingmachine.com/.
Danny's previous book "Marketing Simplified" is available here: https://www.amazon.com/Marketing-Simplified-Built-Seven-Figure-Business/dp/1483493199/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I'm your host, Lindsey Busfield. Between social media, SEO, paid advertising, video ads, commercials, and so on, it can feel like there are endless ways to spend marketing dollars. In some markets, you can bring in a full caseload through a well-placed TV ad. In other more saturated markets, it seems as if you can spend thousands of dollars a month and only see a case or two trickle in. We will be focusing on those frustrating situations today. Danny Decker knows how to cut through the noise and saturated markets. Danny literally wrote the book on simple marketing strategies at work. Thank you so much for joining us.
Danny:
Thank you, Lindsey. It is great to be here. I'm a big fan.
Lindsey:
Oh, thanks. Well, tell us a little bit about your background and what you do.
Danny:
Yeah, so the short version is I actually started a marketing agency back in 2011 and worked with small law firms all over the country in kind of a wide variety of practice areas, family law, immigration, some personal injury, broad range of practice areas, but grew that business with a partner. We grew it to a seven-figure business, and in 2018, I sold my ownership to him because I really saw a need for strategy and education for law firm owners and business owners in general. There are lots of really great marketing agencies out there who can handle a lot of the execution, but I saw a gap, not only for lawyers, but for most small business owners of not really understanding kind of the strategy and the principles behind marketing, and so the results weren't as good as they could be.
So, now, I do a lot of speaking, workshops, podcasts, wrote a book back in 2019, and then I just wrote a second book and released that called The Automatic Marketing Machine just a few months ago. So, I'm really passionate about helping law firm owners and small business owners understand marketing, know how to work with their marketing agencies, know how to make a marketing plan, track their return on investment, and all that good stuff.
Lindsey:
Well, congratulations on a couple of successful book launches, and education in marketing, especially for lawyers, is a huge deal and there is a need there, and whether a very small solopreneur law firm is attempting to take on their own marketing, or if they've grown a little bit beyond then and have hired a marketing agency, it's important to be able to ask the right questions and get the traction and to be able to look at the right metrics to see if your marketing dollars are paying off, and there is an educational gap there because great lawyers are out there doing great lawyer things and not necessarily up to speed on the ever changing marketing initiatives that are going on.
Danny:
Yeah, they don't teach marketing in law school, right?
Lindsey:
That's exactly right.
Danny:
That's not one of the things that law schools conquer. Where should lawyers start when they're making marketing plan? Lindsey:
That's exactly right. Well,
Mark M. Bello is an attorney and also the author of the Zachary Blake Legal Thriller Series. In 1982, Mark was one of the first attorneys to sue the Catholic Church in a case of sexual abuse by clergy. In this podcast, Mark discusses his books, the Catholic Church case, the Zachary Blake character and how attorneys can get started writing.
Mark is also the co-host of the "Justice Counts" podcast. Bello draws upon 44 years of courtroom experience and a passion for justice to write captivating novels and hard-hitting commentaries.
You can visit Mark's site here: https://www.markmbello.com/.
The "Justice Counts" podcast is available here: https://www.spreaker.com/show/justice-counts_1.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I'm your host, Lindsey Busfield.
Living in a world that is so focused on what we do and how we do it, it is important to sit back and reflect on why we do it. As children, we all had a grand idea of what we wanted to be when we grew up. Firemen, lawyers, SEO podcast hosts. Well, maybe that was a later dream. Nonetheless, we saw ourselves as the heroes and heroines of our adulthood. Many of you probably dreamed of becoming lawyers when you grew up. To do so, you traversed law schools, student loans, fierce competition, regulations, and naysayers. You sacrificed time and money into becoming a lawyer most likely because you wanted to help people and contribute to the greater good. And while the day-to-day operations of lawyer life probably don't make you feel like donning your red cape and flying about town, it is important to listen to that calling that is still inside, cheering you on, summoning your inner hero.
Mark Bello knows legal heroes. In fact, he wrote one into existence with the Zachary Blake legal thriller series. In this novel series, Zachary Blake is a lawyer who combats social justice issues that are prevalent in our government, churches, and society today. Thank you for joining us, Mark.
Mark:
Thanks for having me, Lindsey.
Lindsey:
Well, for starters, give us a little more information on the series as a whole.
Mark:
On the series as a whole. Well, I've written eight novels starting with Betrayal of Faith and the eighth and most recent novel is You Have The Right to Remain Silent. It is a departure from the prior novels, because as you mentioned in your intro, most of them have been based on newsworthy topics or what the press likes to call, "ripped from the headlines." The last one is a straight whodunit. It's not a "ripped from the headlines" novel. So, I took off after seven novels from my political, legal soapbox and created a different type of novel.
But the topics, as we'll probably discuss, have gone from clergy abuse to white supremacy, to school shootings, to police on minority shootings, to the Me-Too movement in the Supreme Court, to a bigoted president, a businessman who gets elected and does bad things to the country. Sound familiar? To the immigration crisis. So, I've written about topics that are related to the news. The first book, unlike all the rest, was based on a case out of my practice and that remains the only one that I took from my practices.
Lindsey:
So all of these cases that you're talking about, they all feel very new, they all feel like they are very relevant today, but you've actually been writing for quite a while. So, when did you start writing the series and what exactly prompted you to do so?
Mark:
Well, it took me probably 25 years or so to write the first novel. I had a law practice to run. I had family, I had four children and nine grandchildren, although I didn't have them back then, all of them. But I was one of the first lawyers back in the '80s, that's the 1980s,
Marcie Mangan, Director of Public Relations at Salvi, Schostok & Pritchard P.C., joins us today to discuss getting your law firm into the news. Marcie has experience working in a newsroom and has seen tens of thousands of press releases.
This podcast covers what journalists are looking for, how to email them, and how to increase your chances of getting mentioned in the news.
Be sure to check out Salvi, Schostok & Pritchard P.C.'s outstanding podcast "Beating Goliath: A Plaintiff’s Pursuit of Justice" here: https://www.salvilaw.com/podcast/ or on Apple Podcasts here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beating-goliath/id1570444521.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription: Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. As far as SEO goes, having a story covered by the news can help boost your SEO standings. News coverage can also build community rapport and offer organic marketing opportunities. So, how do you get a story covered in the news? It's more complex than submitting a press release about your latest super lawyers award. You are competing against hundreds, if not thousands of news stories, all vying for viewer interest. In today's attention-based economy, news outlets are going to select the most relevant and engaging stories for their audience. Joining us today is Marcie Mangan, a PR expert working for Salvi, Schostok & Pritchard, a medical malpractice and personal injury law firm in Chicago. Thank you for joining us.
Marcie:
Thank you so much for having me.
Lindsey:
Well, Marcie, let's start with a little bit about your background. You started out working in news outlets like CBS and Fox. Can you expand a bit on your professional experience?
Marcie:
Yes. So, while I was in college, I actually majored in broadcast journalism. So, the goal back in college was to become a news reporter or news anchor, and I had an internship at the CBS station in Indianapolis because I went to Butler University which is in Indiana. And after college, I ended up getting a job offer from WISH-TV to work the assignment desk and write articles for their website, and while I really did want to focus on being on air, it was a job offer after college. So, I took them up on it, and I ended up working there for almost two years, and then I moved closer to home and worked at the FOX 32 station here in Chicago where I focused on doing social media, writing for the website, doing a little bit of assignment desk work, and I did a little bit of on air work there as well.
I really loved working in news, but it's super exciting, every day is truly different, but those hours can really get to you. I was getting up at like 3:00 in the morning, and working holidays, working weekends, and there were a lot of things I was missing out on. So, I was just ready for a lifestyle change, and two years after working at FOX 32, I ended up looking for jobs in PR, and randomly applied to this law firm in Chicago and here I am at Salvi, Schostok & Pritchard six and a half years later. What are newsrooms and reporters looking to cover? Lindsey:
That's great. That's great that you were able to take that experience working in the newsroom and especially at the assignment desk, looking at all of the different pitches that were coming through and press releases. I'm sure you saw your fair share of different stories from across the board coming through. And so, from your experience there, what did you find that reporters were looking for when they chose to cover certain stories?
Marcie:
Sure.
Lindsey:
There is a lot of competition among them and only so much time to tell the news.
Marcie:
Definitely. So, if anyone's ever worked in a newsroom, you know that your email is constantly going off. There's probably two emails coming in per second,
CPA and tax strategist Mike Jezowshek joins the podcast to teach us how to be proactive in your tax planning and maximize marketing deductions for attorneys and law firms.
This podcast covers what "tax planning" is, what and when to deduct, and some things law firms may start deducting now.
Mike Jezowshek may be contacted here:
Podcast Website: https://www.taxsavingspodcast.com/ Tax Minimization Program: https://www.taxsavingspodcast.com/tax Apple iTunes Direct Link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/small-business-tax-savings-podcast/id1377376636 Firm Website: https://www.incsight.net/
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Topics Covered:
What is tax planning? What types of expenses are tax deductible? Are there limits to tax deductions? What are some things that law firms can do now to help maximize their marketing tax deductions?
Matt Ruttenberg joins the podcast today to discuss 401K plans, how attorneys can save for retirement using pre-tax dollars and create incentives for law firm employees to stay on board. Matt is the CMO and Director of Business Development for Life, Inc retirement services.
Visit Life, Inc. online at https://401k.expert/, or you can follow them on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/LifeIncRetirement/, or Twitter at https://twitter.com/Life_Inc_Retire.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript: Lindsey: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I'm your host, Lindsey Busfield.
As the owner of a successful law firm, you want to be wise in how you invest. This means making informed decisions on how you invest in your company, as well as in your retirement. As you seek out the best ways to fund your retirement, there are seemingly infinite complex 401(k) and IRA plans. So how do you decide which plan is right for you, your employees and your firm? Matt Ruttenberg is here to discuss just that. Matt is the CMO and Director of Business Development for Life, Inc. Retirement Services. Thank you for joining us.
Matt: Hey, Lindsey. Thanks. Thanks for having me. How do you choose the right retirement plan for a law firm? Lindsey: Well, ultimately, what we want to understand is how do you choose the right retirement plan for your law firm? Where do you start with that?
Matt: Yeah. Yeah, so the retirement plan world is so vast. There's probably dozen different options to choose from depending on your income level, what your goals are. To narrow it down every time we have our first conversation with people, we ask them two questions. The first one is basically trying to narrow it down to at least three, maybe four options out of those dozen or so. Then the final question gets it down to one, maybe two, and then we choose from there.
The first question is really broad and simple. It's, "What is your goal?" Why are you having this conversation with somebody? Is your number one goal to, or let me rephrase that, "What is your priority?" Why do you need the plan? What are you looking for? Is it to recruit and retain high quality employees or is it to stockpile for your own retirement, maybe save money on taxes or is it all of it? Because there's certain plans that check off every box they need and some of them are narrowed down to one answer or the other. Really once you get that first question, we'll bring it down to maybe two, three plans.
Then the final question is, "How much do you really want to save?" How much are you as the business owner going to save? That comes down to, is it just a few hundred dollars per month because you just want to get something started or are you really trying to stockpile, like really, maybe catch up to retirement because you have not done that yet? You haven't done that to-date really started saving because you're putting all your money and all your funds back into the business, which a lot of business owners do, which is a huge investment, which is great. But then really it's getting down to, "Are we diversifying?" Let's figure this out and go from there."
Lindsey: Right and those are two hugely different priorities because a 401(k) can be a great tool to incentivize and attract new employees and especially in today's market where you need to be able to offer something above and beyond what they're getting somewhere else if you really want to be attracting and retaining the right people. As we all know, a successful law firm is more than just the lawyer itself or themselves and it takes your entire village to keep your law firm running and growing and going the directions that you want and a 401(k) plan that is set up to benefit your employ...
Personal Injury Attorney Logan Quirk joins us for Episode 25 of the Personal Injury Marketing Minute.
In this podcast, Logan discusses marketing initiatives. Some of Logan's leads come from business referrals, attorney referrals, referrals from past clients and SEO and digital marketing. Logan uses case management software and a spreadsheet to track leads and measure marketing initiatives.
You can visit Logan Quirk online at https://quirkwins.com/.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript Intro: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world.
As a lawyer who is savvy enough to listen to a legal marketing podcast, you understand that a marketing plan has a big impact on how you get more clients. Clearly, a highly effective marketing plan is one that gives you the best return on your marketing budget. Just a wild guess, but you probably don't want to waste thousands of dollars and needless hours on marketing strategies that simply aren't working. So how do you gauge your marketing ROI and figure out which strategies are best for you? The short answer is data. However, it isn't enough just to collect data. You need to actually use it to inform your decisions to make a good investment.
With us today is Logan Quirk, the founder of Quirk Accident & Injury Attorneys, APC, a successful personal injury law firm with offices in California, Nevada and Montana. As Logan has expanded his practices, he has honed in on some simple yet effective ways to organize his marketing data and use those numbers to inform his ongoing marketing initiatives. Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for having me, it's a pleasure.
So Logan, tell us a little bit about your practice?
Sure. I actually was informed that this is the 10 year anniversary in my office.
Oh, congratulations.
Yeah, thank you. It didn't even dawn on me until one of the case managers was like, "Hey, what are we doing for our 10 year anniversary?"
Big party?
I think they just wanted to go to a Dodger game or something. So I've been 10 years, started my practice in San Diego, migrated back north of the Los Angeles area and have slowly expanded since then. I started out with my brother in a small town called Ventura. I was young and needed to go, moved down to bigger and warmer weather, to San Diego, and slowly came back as we talked about. And so that's where we're at today.
Well, that's great. Well, as you've expanded, it's obvious that you have needed to rely on marketing, as all law firms do. What marketing initiatives have you relied on the most to bring in clients? I think I've gone through every marketing initiative possible. As a smaller injury firm without the robust budgets of some of the bigger firms, we rely on a lot of, say, guerilla marketing, just word of mouth and going and meeting people, traditional business to business. As I've gotten some more money, I've gotten more into the digital space, especially with your founder Len, he's been able to give me a whole new avenue of revenue, which has been nice.
So we want to diversify our portfolio as I say, or our revenue basis as much as possible, but I've traditionally relied on the business to business contacts, word of mouth from our past clients, making sure we're doing a good job. Those are your biggest source of referrals if you're doing that right. And then other attorneys have been a good source of revenue for me. And now we are developing the digital side and fine tuning that. And I think it's always a process and evolution to make sure that you have the right strategy in place.
Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense because your marketing initiatives are going to ebb and flow. And over time, some things are going to work, some things aren't. But as a busy lawyer bringing in new clients,
In this podcast, Lindsey covers the basics to Google Business Profiles, which are extremely important for law firms.
Your Google Business Profile, formerly known as Google My Business page, needs to be created, claimed and optimized for your law firm to display in local search results.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. In talking with several lawyers who try to take on their own marketing initiatives, the three words that can turn their stomachs are Google-My-Business (also known as Google Business Profile).
Your Google My Business profile appears on the right side of the results page when someone Googles your law firm directly by name. For example, when someone Googles “florist near me,” Google provides several listings and a map so that I can choose from local florists.
However, if someone Googles “Preston Flowers,” the Google My Business profile for Preston Flowers shows up. Their profile displays a link to their website, pictures, directions to their store, their phone number, reviews, hours, and a host of other information about their specific business.
It is especially important for lawyers to have their Google My Business profile set up so that potential clients can easily find your information. A personal referral is no good unless they can find your firm. Otherwise, that lead will go to your competition who shows up in an ad or higher organic result.
So how do you get started?
There are a few ways to do it.
Start with a Google search for your law firm. If a Google My Business profile already exists, you can click “Claim this business” or “Own this business.” Google will give you a few options on how to verify your business ownership. If you get stuck there, give us a call.
If your law firm doesn’t have a Google My Business profile show up when you search your law firm’s name, visit business.google.com to get started. You will need to have a Gmail email address to create an account.
The platform is fairly intuitive to set up, however the business verification process can be a pain. Google will want to send a postcard to your physical address in order to confirm that your business actually exists.
Unfortunately, the postcards can get lost. Also, Google will sometimes want to take the verification process a step further with photo documentation and a video call. If this is the case, they will send you an email with the steps to set up the call.
During this call, which will take place via Google’s video platform, you will need to physically be at your location. They will ask to see signage from the outside, marketing materials (like a business card), and a package or envelope addressed to your location.
Once your Google My Business profile is set up, you will want to keep it updated with your services, hours, and other posts. You can add photos of lawyers, images pertaining to the services your provide, and other details to personalize and welcome prospective client to work with you.
Or, if you don’t want to deal with any of that, Optimize My Firm offers Google My Business profile management as a part of our SEO package. To learn more, contact us today.
In this podcast, Lindsey covers the basics to backlinks, the most important Google ranking factor for law firms. Who needs them? Who does not need them? Should you buy them?
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript: Welcome to the personal injury marketing minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield.
When I go out to the pickleball courts and start talking about SEO, I can usually feel my captive audience start to fade out about the time I mention backlinks. Their eyes glaze over and I start to sound like the teacher from Charlie Brown “wanh wanh wanh.”
But if you want your website to rank better, you need to dig deep and focus while we talk about backlinks.
What are they? How do you get them? What do they cost? And most important, do you really need them? What is a backlink? In essence, a backlink is a reference to your website from another website. On their website, they quote your content and link back to it. Hence backlink.
Google likes when you have backlinks because it can give your website more credibility. Just as when someone quotes you in real life, you get more street cred from Google when someone does it online. The more backlinks you have from well-respected sites, the better.
The best ranking websites have hundreds - if not thousands of backlinks, so a handful here and there aren’t going to cut it in saturated markets.
That being said, there are good and bad backlinks.
The best backlinks are going to come from the most highly-respected sites – like .edu, . gov, and other subject matter authorities. News websites are also great sources, but these are harder to get into than simply submitting a press release. We have another podcast on PR campaigns if you want to grab some of those links.
While those sources are amazing, they can be a challenge to break into without a major story or a major bankroll. Should You Buy Backlinks? For starters, it is officially against Google's guidelines to purchase backlinks, but personal injury attorneys need to obtain links one way or another if they want their site to rank well.
In some cases, we've created relevant and interesting content which attracted links naturally.
In other cases, we've used media outlets where we can submit content that references a law firm’s website.
That being said, in personal injury we've never seen a site on page 1 that isn't actively buying backlinks.
So, if you do decide to be competitive and purchase them - here's a buyer's guide:
There are some other good backlink sources that cost anywhere from $75-500 each. These sources are blogs, websites, journals, and smaller news publications. You will want to make sure these sites are legitimate and that the content you are submitting is relevant to both your legal sector and the website you are linking from.
For example, if you are a personal injury lawyer who is developing a backlink campaign around bicycle accidents, you could find a bicycle blog and submit an article about new bicycle safety initiatives that links back to your bicycle accident page.
However, there are bad backlinks out there that can be seriously problematic for your website in the long run. If you get a link from a trashy, spammy website, Google could ultimately drop you in the search results.
Here are a few red flags to look for:
don’t buy backlinks from a company that just sells backlinks. They use the dozen for a dime websites that are typically cheap networks. don’t buy backlinks from websites that also link to casinos, locksmiths, or porn. don’t buy backlinks from websites that are 100% sponsored content. You want to make sure they have some real content on their site. you want to make sure that the link you purchase is directly to your website and doesn’t use a redirect.
In this podcast, Lindsey quickly covers ballpark SEO fees. In general, most law firms spend around $3,000 - $10,000 per month on SEO.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield.
When talking to a service provider, the “how much do you charge?” question feels horribly uncomfortable. It has really awkward first-date vibes, or maybe it is just me.
That being said, this conversation is vitally important when deciding on whether or not to embark on a major marketing investment like SEO.
Whenever we speak with a new client, we let them know up front that SEO is NOT for every law firm. SEO is only an option for lawyers who are serious about wanting to grow their practices and have the budget to do so.
Effective SEO takes a lot of planning, writing, link building, and project management – as such, it can be a substantial investment. These factors are only compounded in highly saturated markets.
There are some SEO agencies who are happy to take $500-1000/month and give you crappy articles like “is smoking bad for you” or spammy backlinks on fake blogs. But in the world of legal marketing, you will quickly learn that you get what you pay for.
So, back to the question: what do we charge for SEO?
Our exact price is going to depend on where your firm is located, how competitive the area is, how quickly you want to see results, and how broad the objectives are. What does SEO cost? Most small to medium firms in many cities can expect to pay anywhere from $3,000/month to $10,000/month. We won’t provide lower package options because cheap SEO delivers bad results.
If you would like a quote for your law firm, get in touch today.
In this podcast, Allison C. Shields Johs, Esq, returns to discuss client communication. Allison recently wrote about client communications in the ABA TechReport. In her article, 2021 Websites & Marketing, she covers statistics, trends and work to be done by attorneys communicating with existing and prospective clients.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Links:
Allison’s website: www.LawyerMeltdown.com Allison’s blog: www.LegalEaseConsulting.com 2021 Websites & Marketing: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/law_practice/publications/techreport/2021/webmarketing/ ABA TechReport 2021: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/law_practice/publications/techreport/2021/
Transcript Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute. Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics of the legal marketing world. I'm your host, Lindsey Busfield. While snail mail and most phone conversations are about as obsolete as fax machines, most law firms are behind the times when it comes to client communications. Joining us today is Allison Johs, author of the Website and Marketing Tech Report 2021. Welcome, Allison.
Thanks, Lindsey. Great to be here again. Attorney Websites and Communications: Lindsey: Great to have you back. Thank you. Well, client communications are clearly essential every step of the way. Law firms must streamline their communications even before a client signs a contract. Usually this happens during the marketing process, starting with the website. What are some of the trends that you're seeing on how many firms are using websites and what they're using them for?
Allison: We've done this survey through the Legal Technology Resource Center, our tech survey that the tech report is based on. We've been doing it for a number of years now. And we are seeing more and more law firms who have websites. I believe in this past year, the 2021 survey, 94% of our respondents said, yes, their law firm has as a website. But what I'm noticing in the responses to the survey, and even in my conversations that I have with clients during my consulting business, is a lot of lawyers are still using their website really as just a one way communication. What I mean by that is that it's all about the law firm. A lot of times, they're not really even thinking about their clients or what their client's concerns are or addressing the client's most important and most frequent questions. It's a very one way communication. There's not a lot of interaction.
So most of the law firm websites have things like partner profiles and associate profiles. You've got more than 85% of respondents to the survey that said that they had both of those things on their websites. But then when you start asking about other things, it's a lot fewer responses. So you've only got, say about 37% of respondents who say their firms have a blog on their website, which would be additional ways to communicate and explain legal concepts to clients. Only 59% have articles that are written in house by lawyers in the firm that would give clients more information. So you start to see a little bit of a drop off when you get into these more ... I don't even know if I would say advanced, but more substantive communications about what the client is going to be encountering when they're working with the law firm.
And as a matter of fact, it's interesting. I had conversations with two clients in the past week. My clients are all lawyers who are working on their websites. And they both said to me, "I went out and looked at some other lawyer websites to get some ideas of what I might want to do." One of them is starting a new practice, and so this will be a brand new website. And the other one has a website, but is not really happy with it. And so they both came back to me separately and said, "We looked and we don't really love what we're seei...
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute episode #20 sums up what an SEO campaign means to most attorneys. In this podcast, Lindsey discusses the importance of links and content.
Of course, there are other things mandatory for good SEO, such as a fast loading, secure site, an optimized Google Business Profile, and showing up other places are searching for you. But today, we're talking rankings, and 95% of that is attributable to links and content.
Listen to all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield.
As an SEO guru, you would think it would be easy for me to talk about SEO campaigns. Well, it is…if you have two hours for me to tell you the detailed nitty gritty of what we do.
That would put most people to sleep, so I will try to condense what you absolutely need to know about SEO into the next five minutes. What is SEO? Let’s start with a basic fundamental question: What is SEO?
SEO stands for Search Engine Optimization. That is just a fancy way of saying that an SEO campaign helps your website show up higher when someone searches for a particular term, like truck accident lawyer.
SEO campaigns are important in this day and age when prospective clients use Google more than anything else to find lawyers. And, let’s face it, clients can’t hire you if they don’t know you exist.
So, how do we get your website to show up on the first couple pages of Google? Is it a super complex analysis of Google’s ever-changing algorithms in the infospheric metaverse? Uh, no.
It all comes down to content and backlinks. That’s it.
For an SEO Campaign – as with any marketing campaign, you start with your target market. Let’s say you want to attract more bicycle accident cases. You will need to develop an optimized content and backlink strategy to boost your bicycle accident pages on your website. SEO Best Practices for Website Content Let’s start with content. At its core, Google is interested in connecting their users with the best information possible. So, your web pages need to have lots of useful information that is accurate and relevant to their searchers. With that in mind, Google will pair a user who is asking questions about bike accidents with the best information for them, based on the site’s content and their proximity to the searcher.
So, if you have a short one-page article about bicycle accidents on your website, that probably isn’t going to be enough to get that page to rank when someone searches for a bicycle accident lawyer. You want to make sure that you include lots of information about bicycle accidents. This can include what to do after a bike accident, common accident injuries, causes of bike accidents, etc.
You also want to include geographically relevant information so that Google knows where your services are being offered.
There are a few other important steps on how to optimize your webpage content, but you can call me to discuss that. SEO Backlink Strategy for Law Firms The other important step in an SEO campaign is obtaining backlinks. Think of it like this: when someone quotes you, it boosts your credibility. The same goes for your website, and that is called a backlink.
You want other websites to reference your website and link back to it. Hence backlink.
However, you don’t just want any website to link back to yours. You can pay $100 for a dozen super-sleezy backlinks. This can actually hurt your website’s credibility and pull you down lower in the rankings.
Good backlinks are going to be from reputable sites that have content that is relevant to your website. If you are trying to get more bicycle accident cases, you might consider linking from bicycle accident blogs or bicycle accident advocacy groups.
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute episode #19 is all about getting more Google reviews. In this podcast, Lindsey discusses what not to do and provides tips on how to ask for a review.
Reviews are important and assist with rankings in Local Search and attorneys like building reviews on Google, Yelp, Facebook, Justia, AVVO, etc.
Listen to all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription:
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute episode #18 is an interview with Jacob Beckerman, the Founder and CEO of CoParse.
CoParse is an app and a software for your computer used in many industries, including legal. Attorneys like CoParse because it replaces both Microsoft Word and Adobe Acrobat Pro. It handles both DOCX and PDF files and allows attorneys to view, edit, compare, and review documents in a fast, modern application. CoParse automatically allows users to click on sections, terms, case law references, exhibits, and more to get an instant preview. CoParse has several other features and integrations which cater to attorneys from solo operations to large law firms.
Visit CoParse online here: https://coparse.com/.
Listen to all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription: Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. One of the biggest challenges and time sucks in a lawyer's life is paperwork. Even listening to the word paperwork might give you a rush of anxiety. That at being said, take a deep breath and know that by the end of this podcast, you might have a tool you can use to streamline your paperwork process. This tool is called CoParse. CoParse is a paperwork platform designed specifically for lawyers. This software helps lawyers cut down on unnecessary reading, scrolling, and scanning so that they can more effectively get to the sections they need to use.
Lindsey:
Today, we'll be talking to Jacob Beckerman, the founder and CEO of CoParse. Hey Jacob, how are you doing?
Jacob Beckerman:
Hi. Good. Thanks for having me Lindsay. What is CoParse? Lindsey:
So CoParse is an all-in-one Word and PDF processing app. But what specifically does it do?
Jacob Beckerman:
So CoParse is purpose-built for the type of documents that lawyers are trying to read. So it takes any Word or PDF file and it essentially extracts all of the defined terms, sections and makes it into a Wikipedia page. So instead of scrolling to find what you're looking for, and when there's defined terms or these cross references or references to statutes or things like that, it makes all of that clickable so that you have infinite context at your fingertips or at the tip of your fingers and you don't have to scroll and search for information.
Lindsey:
And so you don't need to keep 12,000 tabs open and try to hunt and peck and find whatever it is that was referenced in the first section when you're already 12 sections in.
Jacob Beckerman:
Exactly. Yeah. So it makes it so that you can have everything on screen at once, even if you're on a seven inch iPad screen or a mobile screen. It's better than if you'd had two 40 inch monitors when you're using the software.
Lindsey:
That's fantastic. And so I know that it goes beyond just being able to reference and read it. So what are some of the other key features that set it apart from just using a traditional Word or PDF document?
Jacob Beckerman:
Yeah. So in short, we're doing it all. We're doing lots of different tools that we're putting into one desktop app. So we just released our advanced compare tool, which will tell you what's changed across different documents. So it does simple redlining, but it also tells you how the terms and clauses have changed and how that affects the business implications of any of those changes. It works for contracts, briefs, whatever you happen to be looking at.
Jacob Beckerman:
It integrates with e-signature. It integrates with document management systems. And it allows editing. It also pulls out key errors in documents, which is a feature that we didn't expect would get used as much as it has been used. And so it detects broken references. It detects all kinds of things that you may not catch, especially if you're working quickly, which we all are these days.
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute episode #17 is part 5 of a mini-series about marketing personal injury law firms. In this podcast, Lindsey discusses referral marketing.
Referrals and clients who hear about you via word-of-mouth are tricky parts of marketing. Lindsey goes over some strategies some from the personal injury attorneys we work with use to generate leads.
Listen to all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. Continuing in our marketing campaign series, today we will be exploring referral marketing campaigns.
Let’s just jump in with a real-life story:
I have the best pest control guy in the world. His name is Sal Dimino of Dimino Pest Control. He is a military veteran who started his company when covid hit. He is the kind of guy that you can call if you have a question about bugs, rodents, or even dog vomit fungus. It is a real thing and it is oh so gross. And Sal helped me with it. As a new homeowner, it is important for me to have a guy like Sal who I know will be there whenever I need him.
After hearing this, wouldn’t you give Sal a call if you lived in North Carolina and had a bug issue? I bet you would, and here is why:
One - Sal provides a service that you need.
Two - Sal stands apart from the crowd in a meaningful way.
Three - If you listen to my podcast regularly, you probably trust my opinion.
Four - Now you don’t need to look up anyone else’s phone number because I can easily give you his information.
Now how does my pest control story relate to you?
As a personal injury lawyer, referrals are crucial to your non-digital marketing success. They provide warm leads that are automatically more likely to convert into clients. So how do you get more referrals? They don’t come from sitting around and hoping people will talk about you. There are a few steps you need to take to lay the groundwork.
The first step to every marketing campaign is to identify your target market. With your target market in mind, you will want to create referral partnerships with people who are already connected to this demographic.
For example, if you want to target the bicyclist community, partner with bicycle safety advocates and influencers. That way, you will be providing a service that you know they need – and it will align with your overall business objectives
Second, you need to stand apart from the crowd in a meaningful way. Let’s go back to the Sal example. He knew his audience. As a new homeowner with bug problems, I was freaked out, intimidated, and needed immediate help – probably a lot like your prospective clients.
Not only does Sal text me before he arrives, but he also chats with me about life when he gets here. And he is patient with me when I ask questions about lizard poop.
In fact, he is so personable and sincere that I know I can call him if I have any questions. And to top it off, I don’t have pest problems ever.
If you can be sincerely caring and back it up with great results, people will be thrilled to refer new clients to you.
Finally, don’t be afraid to ask for referrals. The way I see it, referrals come from three main sources:
The most obvious source for referrals is former clients. Former client referrals are money in the bank. They know first-hand how you treat your clients and the results that you get for them. I would always trust a friend who has been through a similar experience over just about anyone else. These can be a bit tricky, so I will be doing another podcast on reviews and former client referrals, so subscribe to our podcast to learn more about this later. The second kind of referral relationships is professional referral webs. These are referral partnerships with doctors, chiropractors,
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute episode #16 is part 4 of a mini-series about marketing personal injury law firms. In this podcast, Lindsey defines and discusses SEM (paid Search Engine Marketing).
If there is one thing that is universally true in marketing, it’s that marketing professionals LOVE acronyms. SEO, PPC, LSA, GMB, SEM, O-M-G IYKYK.
Listen to all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host Lindsey Busfield.
Today we will be talking about the acronym SEM, which is often paired with SEO. However, they are not the same thing, but they are related…sometimes. While there is some debate as to whether SEM includes SEO (like how a square is always a rectangle, but a rectangle isn’t always a square), we are going to be focusing on SEM like it is its own, beautiful little shape. Let’s dive into SEM for Personal Injury Lawyers 101: SEM stands for Search Engine Marketing. For the purposes of this podcast (since it is my show, after all) we will further define SEM as paid advertising.
“But Lindsey, we pay for SEO!” Yes, you do, listener – as you should. But that is used to get your website to show up higher in the organic search results.
SEM is more in line with the advertisements you see at the very, tippy top of the Google search results. Since this is a podcast and I can’t show you my screen, take a second to Google “Personal Injury Lawyers Near Me” – pause while you do it, then come on back.
Even though I am in North Carolina, our results should have a similar format. Local Services Ads: At the very top, you will see a section called “Google screened” with three lawyers, their pictures, and their rating information. This is called a “Local Services Ad” or LSA – I told you we love acronyms. If you click on one of those lawyers, you will be taken to their Google profile with their phone number. Actually, it is a special phone number that is linked to their LSA account. Every time a prospective client calls this number, the lawyer pays an advertising fee.
Many of our clients LOVE LSA ads. Depending on the market, they can attract several callers per month. In more saturated markets with lots of personal injury lawyers, there are fewer callers. However, Google prioritizes the personal injury lawyer’s budget, reviews, and length of time in business. So, a lawyer who is willing to pay more, has a better reputation and has been around for 25 years is going to show up more than a new firm with a limited budget and no reviews.
As far as cost goes, the price per call can range from $100-300 depending on the market. That being said, one of the best things about LSAs is the ability to dispute any call that isn’t relevant to your business. The LSA calls are recorded and you – or the agency you hire (like Optimize My Firm) can monitor your calls and dispute ones that are SPAM, duplicate leads, or pertain to a non personal injury case. Google Ads & PPC: The next section on the page is the PPC ads – Pay Per Click for those who hate all these acronyms. These are the ads that have the word “Ad” next to them and look more like a regular website listing.
With a PPC campaign, you actually have to write the ad, as opposed to the Local Service Ad campaign. So, these can take a little more marketing savvy in order to get good results.
But hopefully by the end of this podcast, you should be able to look at other personal injury lawyers in your area who have PPC ads and evaluate how well they wrote their ad…and hopefully, how you can do it even better!
Here is how it is done:
A PPC ad gives you a specific format to write your ad. Your website and phone number will display at the top of the ad. Next, you get to put in your title and tag line followed by a short area for body text.
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute episode #15 is part 3 of a mini-series about marketing personal injury law firms. In this podcast, Lindsey shares what does not work and 3 actionable tips for potentially successful PR.
Listen to all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Public Relations Campaign: Do Something.
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. Continuing in our marketing campaign series, we will be covering public relations campaigns for personal injury lawyers.
Public relations is easy. You simply draft a press release, send it out through a PR service, and done. Podcast over! Just kidding.
You can do that…if you are ok with spending time drafting a press release, spending money submitting it and waiting around for your phone to NOT ring.
The reason that the phone isn’t ringing in the plan above is that it is missing a critical step: the law firm didn’t actually DO anything. Many firms start with the press release in mind before the firm has actually done anything PR worthy. Once the firm does something PR worthy, then they should submit a press release – or if it is really PR worthy, buzz might naturally generate.
Let’s talk about the concept of PR Worthy, since it does seem to be the lynchpin determining the success of your PR campaign. Something that is PR Worthy has these three essential characteristics: 1. It is valuable. This seems like a no brainer, but there are thousands of press releases floating in the digital cosmos about useless crap. “Lawyer Recognized as a Super Lawyer” is not valuable. Most people don’t know what a Super Lawyer is – other than he might wear a red cape and his undies on the outside. Those who do know, well…you know how much of an announcement that is. 2. Something PR worthy should capture the attention of your target audience. While it is nice to gain attention from the world at large, you want to capture the attention of a particular demographic.
As a personal injury lawyer, your target audience could be pretty large seeing as anyone, anytime is at risk of an injury.
While that is true, you will likely want to use a PR campaign as a part of a larger marketing campaign that is targeted towards a particular target audience.
And as for capturing their attention, you need to figure out what they care about and then actually do something. Let me say that again – you need to go do something.
If you are trying to attract more bicycle accident cases, then you need to show up in the bicycle community. You can advocate for bicycle safety measures by sponsoring a bicycle safety rally. You can launch a bicycle accident hotline where you can answer legal questions after a bicyclist is injured. Did you just rebrand the “free consultation?” – I think you just did. And then you wrote a press release and got some attention and community good will out of it. 3. Your PR worthy concept should be time sensitive. If your story isn’t time sensitive, it won’t be prioritized.
Nothing kills a PR campaign like getting back-burnered. If you have contacted your local news agency and they say that they will call you next week, they likely won’t be calling you next week – that is, unless there is absolutely no other news story to run.
Instead, you want to put an event date, launch date, or some other time constraint on your event in order for it to move up in the queue. Additional PR Tips: Once you have your event, product launch, or whatever it is that you are getting off your keister to do set up, you can draft your press release. Better yet, you should hire a professional to draft your press release, if you don’t already have one in house.
Press releases must follow a specific technical format and must also be written in a way that is going to capture the media’s attention.
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute episode #14 is part 2 of a mini-series about marketing personal injury law firms. In this podcast, Lindsey shares some tips about selecting a target audience and showing them that you care.
Some of the key takeaways include identify target market, get involved in a target market's community, show clients what you can do for them and differentiate yourself from competitors.
Listen to all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I'm your host Lindsey Busfield. When investing in marketing, every personal injury law firm has one big goal in mind to be the first law firm that comes to mind after someone has an injury accident. One of the best ways to accomplish this, is by creating a brand awareness campaign. You might ask, shouldn't any marketing campaign's goal be brand awareness? Well, that is a good question. You are probably a good lawyer because you ask such good questions. And yes, marketing is designed to make people aware of your brand. But a brand awareness campaign is designed to accomplish three specific goals. One, make your target market aware of your brand's name. Two, bring awareness of your offerings. And three, differentiate yourself from your competitors. So let's break this down a little bit further.
The most painful stab of the knife is when you say, "I'm a partner at XYZ Law Firm." And the other person says, "Hmm, never heard of them." And instead you want them to respond, "Wow, isn't that the personal injury firm that is really popular in the motorcycle community?" Or whatever your target market is. Getting from that first response to the second one is one of the biggest challenges for growing any law firm. There are two brand awareness campaign approaches that are highly effective at doing this though. The first approach is what I call the Coca-Cola approach. Everyone knows Coke. In the South, the word Coke is anonymous with any Cola flavored soda. Even though I try not to keep it in my house, my husband has a guilty, I'm going to go get a Coke face, when he's about to go run errands.
So how do they manage to weave themselves so seamlessly into the fabric of a consumer's mind? Well, despite their ubiquitous presence, they continue to advertise like crazy. You see Coke commercials, billboards, magazine ads, and merchandise everywhere. Their marketing strategy is to blast the consumer with their logo and targeted messaging, thus ensuring their brand's awareness remains consistent. However, they are not blindly throwing their $200 million advertising budget around. They are targeting a consumer market, generally teens and 20 somethings who are establishing their brand loyalty. And then they rebrand often to align with modern visual trends to further make themselves appealing to this demographic. That being said, I am not suggesting that you spend millions on advertising, but a strong advertising based brand awareness campaign does require some financial investment. In order to get in front of perspective clients, you will need to pay to get their attention.
Depending on your geographic region and target market for this particular campaign, different advertising strategies will bring different ROIs. For example, if you're trying to reach the motorcycle community, radio ads that are generally played in cars might not be the best option. Rather, you might want to place an ad on a billboard along a road that has a high motorcycle accident rate. You might want to couple that with an ad in a local biker magazine. The bottom line is that you need to identify your target market, find out where they are looking, and be there. The second approach to a brand awareness campaign is what I call the Anheuser-Busch approach. In 2020,
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute episode #13 is the beginning of a mini-series about some of the many ways to market a personal injury law firm and obtain more cases. SMART marketing is Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, Time based marketing.
Listen to all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. If you are listening to this, you are probably a lawyer. And if you are a good lawyer, you probably know a lot about law. And let’s just say less than a lot about marketing campaigns. It’s safe to assume that you at least know that marketing is important if you want your law firm to get more clients. And you are right. But if you blindly are throwing your marketing dollars at a wall, i.e. your marketing department or agency, without a clear cut strategy, you will have no way of knowing what type of marketing campaigns are giving you the best return on your investment. That is why we are starting a new podcast series that will quickly cover about a dozen specific types of marketing campaigns that personal injury law firms use to get more business.
We’ll discuss everything from brand awareness campaigns, to email marketing, to of course, SEO. Before you decide on any marketing campaign you should start with a goal in mind. While every law firm’s ultimate goal is to make more money and attract more clients, your goal should be SMART. Yes, that is an acronym, S means specific. You need to have a specific goal in mind, instead of saying, “Meh, I want more clients.” Why not target a specific demographic? M is for measurable. What is the metric that you will use to define your success? Does success mean that you’re generating more overall website traffic? Is success having a hundred thousand views to your ad? Is success attracting five more clients to your law firm each month? You decide. Attainable is what A stands for. If you are an independent personal injury lawyer in a super saturated market, it is probably not realistic to expect a social media campaign to turn you into the most wildly successful lawyer in New York City.
However, setting up an optimized landing page that is targeted towards millennials in New York City who are injured on their bikes could realistically generate more traffic and more cases for your firm. You need to make sure that your goal is relevant, R for relevant. Your goal should align with your firm’s values and long-term objectives. Make sure that your campaign goals are relevant to your firm’s long-term goals. Use your resources wisely. You could spend your marketing money into being the most followed Facebook lawyer, but if you are getting lots of attention and no cases, then that approach probably isn’t the most relevant for your firm.
Finally, your goal should be time-based, T for time-based. Marketing campaigns should regularly be evaluated. For example, Google Ads should be AB tested and evaluated to find out which versions are best at converting into cases. You should do this on a regularly timed basis, whether it’s every month for Google Ads, or every year for your SEO strategy. Every marketing campaign should have a time-based check in date to evaluate how well it’s working. With any marketing campaign, the evaluation piece is key, and each campaign is going to have different goals, measurements, and time thresholds.
We are happy to discuss your marketing strategy and help you develop a marketing campaign that is right for your law firm. Also, if there’s a specific type of marketing campaign you would like for me to cover in this series, or if you would like to share a strategy that has worked well for you and your firm, please reach out to me at lindsey @ optimizemyfirm.com. I look forward to hearing from you.
The Personal Injury Marketing Minute episode #12 features Master Style Coach and Personal Brand Strategist Mary Michele Nidiffer. Mary covers what attorneys should wear when meeting prospective clients, in the courtroom, when going to trial, men’s and women’s style, and much more.
You may visit Mary’s website or connect with her here:
Website: https://stylebymarymichele.com/
Store: https://shopstylefinder.com/
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/shopstylefinder/
Email: Michele @ shopstylefinder.com
Listen to all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly covered the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. And today we will be rummaging through your closet and helping you to figure out what to wear. Whether we like it or not, what we wear is generally how people gather their first impression, which leads to split second subconscious decisions about how we are perceived. If you are like most attorneys and think, “Well, I wear a suit every day, I’ve got this covered.” I can assure you that you have something to learn from our guest, master style coach, and founder of Style Finder boutique, Mary Michele Nidiffer. Thank you so much for joining us, Michele.
Mary:
Well, I’m so excited to be here. I’ve got a lot of great things to share.
Lindsey:
Excellent. Well, tell us a little bit about you and your background.
Mary:
Well, I’m a master style coach, and I own Style Finder boutique located in North Hills, but I have been in the fashion realm for many years. Well, I went to UNC Greensboro, I have a degree in apparel arts and started my career as a designer. I became a style coach in 2008 and my career has just blossomed from there. But my passion and I love what you said about what we wear is generally how people gather their first impression. What I like to say is what you wear tells the world who you are.
Lindsey:
I like that.
Mary:
Yes, it makes a difference. So, my passion really is helping my clients uncover their true personal style and cultivate an image that I like to say matches their message, or matches who they are, how they want to show up, and what they do, bringing it all together.
Lindsey:
Well, and that is highly relevant to our listeners today because how they show up, and what they wear and what their office looks like, and that you know from both style and interior design, that makes a big first impression and can really lead to the decision of whether or not somebody is going to work with an attorney, all the way up to whether or not an attorney wins their case based on how they’re perceived. And again, our clients and listeners are primarily personal injury attorneys, and they live all around the country. And while COVID has moved many meetings to virtual meetings and phone calls, and otherwise not in-person meetings, we are all starting to meet face to face again. So it’s essential to look the part, take a look into our closets and get ideas of what to wear for those initial client consultations, the regular client meetings, arbitration, courtroom appearances, and anywhere that you have to physically show up and command a presence. And so is it going to be enough to wear the same suit for every type of meeting?
Mary:
No. No. I think, certainly tailoring what you wear to the type of event, is it a client meeting? Is it a high-powered court case? What are you doing? Tailoring your dress can make all the difference, because as you mentioned, there’s the psychology behind clothing and wearing different colors, patterns, textures, putting things together in different ways can influence how you’re perceived.
What Should Lawyers Wear When Meeting Prospective Clients? Lindsey:
For example, when a lawyer has a meeting with a first client and they want to appear approachable or kind, or caring or trustworthy or strong, what is it that they should be wearing?
Mary:
Sure. Well, I think this is a great opportunity to think about color, and blue is the color of trust. Blue symbolizes trust. And so if you think about, maybe you bring in a blue shirt or a navy suit, as opposed to black, which is more formal, more authoritative. You want something that’s going to help you to appear more approachable. Now, one tip that I encourage my clients to do is to wear your eye color or a color similar to your eye color. But let’s talk about that for a second, because let’s say you have blue eyes. If you wear blue, it’s going to make your eyes pop. And what happens when your eyes pop, eye contact becomes easier, you are perceived as being more approachable.
Lindsey:
Oh, interesting.
Mary:
And actually the same is true for green eyes. However, if you have brown eyes, then I would still encourage you to wear some type of blue, maybe a brighter blue, because that will become what I call your eye intensifier. And so it will also make your eyes stand out.
Lindsey:
And so it’ll also help facilitate with the eye contact?
Mary:
Yes. So I would say stick with blue because it does symbolize trust, but also because it will make you, whether you have blue eyes, if you have green eyes, it can work as well because green eyes typically have a lot of blue in them-
Lindsey:
Exactly. And pretty much goes with everything it sounds like.
Mary:
It goes with everything. Yes. And with brown eyes, it will intensify your eyes, which will create a similar effect.
What Color Suit Should Lawyers Wear to Court? Lindsey:
Excellent. So, let’s look at that in contrast with a lawyer who is going to court and wants to look more authoritative or knowledgeable, what can a lawyer wear to make more of a commanding presence there?
Mary:
Well, I would definitely say go for black. A black suit, I would definitely stick with a white shirt. Very classic, you want to go a little bit more formal, more polished, more professional. And for men with neck ties, you want to keep it really simple. This is not about your neck tie, this is not a place to make a fashion statement. This is where, your client’s livelihood is on the line. And this is where you want to, if you do wear a print and a neck tie you want to go for a more subtle pattern. You don’t want people looking at your neck tie, you want them listening to what you’re saying? So keep it understated, keep it formal, keep it dark. If you choose not to wear black, I would definitely suggest a deep charcoal or a Navy.
Lindsey:
Okay. That’s definitely interesting to know, because what you’re wearing should not be the most interesting thing going on in that courtroom.
Mary:
For sure.
What is the Best Color Suit for Jury Trials? Lindsey:
Absolutely. And then what factors should a lawyer consider if they’re going to be appearing in front of several jurors as opposed to a single judge, where when you have a jury audience, you have multiple people that you’re in front of, you might be moving around a little bit more and you’re working with people and presenting to people who have some background knowledge of the laws that apply to the particular case, but they are regular people. They’re a jury of the defendant’s peers. So what about that type of situation should factor into what you’re wearing?
Mary:
Sure. Well, I think this ties into what we just talked about with the first meeting of a client, and wearing the blue and wearing things that express trust. White is also a great color to wear because white is really the symbol of innocence, [inaudible 00:07:20] white suit, wearing a white shirt with maybe a navy suit, and then a blueprint tie, that could work well also. Now this is also the place where, not that I want you to get too creative in your expression, but doing something that expresses your sense of style, maybe it’s a pocket square, maybe it’s the print on your neck tie, maybe it’s the color and the color combination of your shirt and how it plays against your suit, something to show the jury, your personal style.
Mary:
You want them to see you as a person and be able to connect with you, not just somebody who is fake. You do not want to come across as fake, you want to come across as being authentic. That is very key. And when you wear something that you’re not just putting it on for the sake of putting it on, you’re wearing it because it’s truly who you are, you shine, you stand a little taller. You’re more yourself. And that everything that I teach is, that helps you to connect so much deeper with your clients, with the jury, with the judge, with whoever you’re speaking to. It can make such a difference.
Lindsey:
That’s an excellent point. The lawyers that would definitely want to come across not only as knowledgeable and experienced and professional, but to be able to appeal to somebody on a human level. And even when somebody has a bit of their personality reflected in their personal style, I would think that it would be able to give them a sense of confidence and anything that you can do to help boost your confidence in the courtroom, make you feel a little bit more natural, I would think would be a great asset. And so speaking of style, it’s important to take the colors into consideration and kind of the smaller accessories, but what is going on with the suit trends now, should all suits be fitted? Are there any patterns that are in, are there any modern accessories? What is hip right now?
Should Lawyer’s Suits be Custom Fit? Mary:
This is my favorite question. Well, all right. So let’s break that down for a minute. Let’s talk about men’s suits. A couple of years ago, the skinny pants were all the rage, which they worked really well for some men and some men just not. My husband included, they’re not right for him, but what we’re seeing now is more of a looser fit trouser. So men, you can relax. You don’t have to suck it all in anymore. So a looser fit trouser, but here’s my take on fitted. Instead of thinking about fitted, I want you to think about well-fitting is it well fitting for your body? Because one thing I talk about a lot with women are different body types. Well, men have different body types as well. And so there’s not a one size fits all. But when you can select a suit, whether it’s custom made or it’s tailored, rarely do you find one off the rack that fits you perfectly, but when you can have it tailored so that it fits you like a glove, not too tight, but it’s definitely not baggy. That is the secret sauce.
Lindsey:
That’s fantastic. And so, wait, you’re talking about not being able to pull it off the rack and having to have it tailored, what should someone expect to pay for a very well fitting suit?
Mary:
All right. Well, there are two ways I look at it, typically, there’s the off the rack. And I would say for a really nice suit off the rack, I would say roughly, four to $600. Now you can find suits out there for less than that, if you’re on a budget, but I would say to invest in a nice suit, you’re going to want to start at the four to $600 range. If you do want to go the customer out, which if you have something that… as long as you maintain your weight and nothing shifts too much, you’re going to have that for years. So it’s a wonderful investment. Maybe it’s your suit that you pull out when you know you need to nail this case, and it’s your power suit. But that can be an investment of more around anywhere between $800 and $1,800.
Lindsey:
That’s definitely helpful to know because they are investments, they’re your first skin, they’re your first impression. But we’re starting to see more attorneys with sleeve tattoos or beards. And if an attorney is a bit creative, what are some ways that they can live on the edge and still be classy?
Mary:
Sure. That’s a great question. Well, I think, for one, your sleeve tattoos are huge. In fact, I’m seeing more women with those as well, but if you think about what you wear into the courtroom, typically you’re not wearing short sleeves, typically your arms would be covered. And so when you think about getting a sleeve tattoo, maybe it’s one that stops at your wrist, or if you do extend beyond that, you’re just going to have to be with that. But I think the thing with that is you need to own it. And that needs to be authentically who you are and your expertise will rise above whatever you present. But we are seeing a lot of beards, a lot of different facial hair, and my best advice for that is just for the beards, mustaches, whatever you choose, keep it well-groomed, keep it very well groomed.
Can Lawyers Wear Pinstripes? Mary:
And then, for the rest of you put yourself together a 100% in a well tailored suit, well-fitting suit, great colors. And it’s not about the beard, it’s about the beard being a part of your entire look. And so when you walk into the courtroom, nobody’s staring at you because of your beard or your tattoos or something, they’re looking at you and thinking, “Wow, he looks amazing.” Or, “She looks amazing.” Now, one other way, and kind of to touch on the question you asked me a few minutes ago about trends, is expressing yourself through trends. Now I know when you’re wearing a suit, there can be a little leeway, but a few trends that I’ll share that this can help you to feel like, “Hey, I’m wearing something that’s more personal.” And to express your personal style, we’re seeing a lot of hounds too, herringbone, glen plaid. Actually one thing I’ve really seen a lot of is window pane plaid. It’s really nice. I mean, all of these are very classic, but they give you a modern spin. We’re seeing cross hatch and pinstripes. Pinstripes never go out of style.
Lindsey:
I was like, those never go out.
Mary:
But they’re seeing a resurgence right now. And the other thing is with the jackets, double-breasted seeing a lot of double breasted jackets. So, and then the fuller leg pant as opposed to the skinny, but tailoring is key. So when you go to find a suit, whether you’re male or female, chances are, you’re going to have to have a tailor, find a great tailor, and that will be your secret weapon.
Are Women’s Pantsuits Fashionable? Lindsey:
That is very helpful. And I don’t know, we’ve talked a lot about men’s clothing and beards and the different patterns for suits, but let’s talk exclusively about women’s fashion for a few minutes, because we do have a large audience of attorneys that are women in the courtroom, and they obviously have different styles. And I’ve noticed that there has been a [inaudible 00:15:04] perhaps due to political reasons for the women’s pants suits. Are those a staple of women’s fashion that’s here to stay?
Mary:
Yes, they are not going anywhere anytime soon. You don’t know how many clients I have that come into my boutique and tell me, “I don’t want to wear a skirt or dress.” And we have a lot of lawyers shop with us and they want pants. They want pants. And yeah. So fortunately, I feel like it’s, in a lot of ways, it’s very liberating for women because pants are so much easier than wearing a skirt sometimes.
Lindsey:
They are.
Mary:
Yes, but certainly where we’re going to continue to see the skirted suits, the pencil skirts. And when you wear those, pantyhose are a must in the courtroom. A must.
Which Type of Jacket Should go with a Pantsuit? Lindsey:
That is really good to know as somebody who doesn’t wear a whole lot of skirts, I never even think about pantyhose. So that is an important key to consider. And then with women’s jackets that go along with the pantsuit, I know that there’s not one style of jacket that goes with every type of pantsuit. I feel like there’s a lot more differentiation in the types of jackets that go with them than there are necessarily even in men’s jackets. What are some of the trends right now that you’re seeing with women’s jackets?
Mary:
Right. Well, I think, one thing that we’re seeing not necessarily in more professional wear, but more mainstream are over-sized boyfriend blazers. And I think in some ways that’s translated a little bit into more professional, but I will say, take that with a grain of salt, because I think when you’re talking about more professional dress, fit will always trump what’s on trend. For something that’s trendy, but if it’s not right for you, or if it’s wearing you, basically, it’s not going to work. And so, this is where I would really say, don’t focus so much on what’s on trend, focus on what’s right for your body type, what’s right for your stature.
Mary:
Because if you’re petite and you wear a longer jacket, it may or may not be the right proportion for you. And you want it to work for your body type, you want it to jelly skin the body. You want it to fit you like a glove and really show off your asset. One thing I will add, this is more for women to think about, for men, they don’t have nearly as many choices, but for women when it comes to your jacket, one thing I want you to think about as your jacket lapels. Do you have a notch lapel, or do you have a shell collar? Now the shell collar is the rounded, unnotched collar basically. And really the notched lapel, that is a much more masculine look, and that is better for women have a more angular face shape, and a shell collar is better for someone who has the more rounded face shape.
Lindsey:
Interesting. Very good to know. And I would think that that would also translate to where you’re going to be wearing that jacket, because if you want a jacket that… I would think that the more angular jacket or the notched one would have more of a commanding presence, if you’re going to be going into a courtroom, whereas the rounded lapel would be a little bit more gentle. And so if you’re going to a meeting one-on-one with a client, I would think that that would be a more appropriate place to where that. Is that about right?
Mary:
Yeah Lindsey. That’s a great interpretation. Absolutely. I think the notch collar absolutely is, as I mentioned, it’s more masculine, has got a more commanding presence and that’s what you want to wear when you’re in the courtroom. But meeting one-on-one with clients, shell collar, I think is perfect because then you want your look to be a little softer.
Should Female Attorneys Show Cleavage? Lindsey:
Excellent. And so we’ve got the jacket, we have the pants, let’s talk about blouses. One of the most googled questions for female lawyers in fashion is how low or too tight is appropriate for professional wear. And I know that this one is probably subject to a lot of interpretation and there are a lot of pc-isms revolving around this question, but it is something that women want to know. And they’re looking to Google to find the answer for that. So, in your professional opinion, what is the cutoff?
Mary:
Sure. Well, that is a hot button issue, depending on who you talk to, but anyway, in my professional opinion, is no cleavage. No cleavage. You don’t want your blouse bursting at the seams and no cleavage. In fact, I had a lawyer, a client years ago who brought me into his office to help his staff get dressed, because there were several ladies who were offenders of this. And I think they just didn’t know. Some people just don’t think about it, but no cleavage. If when in doubt, leave it out. Meaning, if you’re not sure, the answer is no. Always go for more conservative. And one thing I will say, I have a lot of clients who are busty, and that can make it tricky when you have a button up blouse. But one thing I want you to think about is when you are shopping for your blouses, find something that has a little bit of stretch.
Mary:
There are so many great options out there now, there are a lot of lines out there that are targeted towards fuller busted women, and things that do have stretch because the stretch will allow you more freedom of movement. It’ll allow you to have a little bit more give, and it’s going to help you feel more comfortable too. But the worst thing in the world would be, you’re in a courtroom with a high-powered court case and you look down and you see your button is like about to burst. And then you have to think about that, you want the least distracting clothing for yourself, as well as for other people, you can get it.
Should Female Attorneys Wear High Heels? Lindsey:
That’s an excellent point. You do not want to be defending somebody’s case while simultaneously thinking about a wardrobe malfunction, that divided attention would be absolutely awful. So, comfort and professionalism is key there. And so what about high heels? I know that those used to be a 100% must, but are they any more? I know they impact posture and to an extent, appearance and perception. So are those still as critical as they used to be?
Mary:
In my opinion, no. Lindsey, I think high heels, they’re nice to wear if that’s your style, but yeah, I think in a lot of ways they can have almost like a more sexy connotation and lead people to be distracted for the wrong reasons. But sometimes you can wear flats. Flats can be really tricky. It’s hard to just swap out high heels for flats, and have a similar effect. But my recommendation is go for a lower heel, kitten heels actually are very hot right now and they’re so much more comfortable. I am not a heels girl, but kitten heels I can do. But I would say, opt for a kitten heel or a wedge.
Lindsey:
Okay. That’s a great idea.
Mary:
Well, sometimes wedges can get a little bit too casual, but for the right setting, a wedge can be appropriate, but I would say for the courtroom, or when you’re going for a more formal look, a kitten heel can be a perfect solution.
Lindsey:
And in terms of fabrics for shoes, does it matter what type of fabric your shoes are made out of?
Mary:
I would say opt for a leather, as opposed to a suede or something… there’s so many different options now, you can get raffia or cork, or I was looking at something the other day that was a woven canvas. I mean, there’s just a jillion different options, a leather closed toe kitten heeled, or high heel pump, mid heel, let’s say mid heel would be better. Close toe pump is going to be your best bet. It’s plastic, you can invest in it and it will last you for a while. It is timeless and will transcend the trends.
Lindsey:
Excellent. Well, thank you so much today. And is there any last final tip that any of our attorneys can keep in mind if they are in a rush to get into the closet and get out and get on to their law firm? What should somebody look for immediately as they run into their closet and try to create an ensemble?
Consistency, Credibility and Confidence. Mary:
Sure. I think about the three Cs. You want to create consistency, because it’s not just a one and done. It’s not just about how you show up one day, it’s about how you show up consistently. And so if you want to get into your closet and plan out your outfits for the week or the next few days, think about consistency. This is not polar opposite day. This is not go from one extreme to the other. This is about creating consistency because that in and of itself, builds your credibility and build your trust. And it will also build your own confidence as well as confidence that others have in you. Showing up in a consistent way, whatever that is. And so, if you’re trying something new, if you’re experimenting with certain colors, weave it in, weave it into your style and let it be a part of your style rather than just a flash in the pan.
Lindsey:
It’s a great point.
Mary:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Excellent. Well, thank you so much again for joining us today. If anybody wants to get in touch with you or learn more about your offerings, how can they do that?
Mary:
Sure. Well, my website is stylebymarymichele.com or you can email me at Michelle, M-I-C-H-E-L-E @shopstylefinder.com.
Lindsey:
Great. Well, thank you so much. We appreciate your time today and hope that you enjoy the rest of it.
Mary:
Oh, thank you so much Lindsey.
This episode covers Google’s latest Broad Core Algorithm Update which began rolling out July 1, 2021. We will cover what a broad core algorithm update is, how often are there algorithm updates, when did July’s algorithm update began, what is unique about it, overlapping updates (such as the Google Page Experience update and Core Web Vitals). Finally… Should law firms worry about algorithm updates?
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcription: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute. Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield, and today, we will be discussing the new core update that Google just rolled out. Well, Google rolls out periodic algorithm updates. This one seems to impact law firms more than some other updates that Google has issued in the past. Len, the owner of Optimize My Firm is here to give us all of the details that you need to know for your firm. Welcome, Len.
Len:
Thank you. Thank you for hosting this.
What is a Google Broad Core Algorithm Update? Lindsey:
Absolutely. So Len, tell us what is a broad core update?
Len:
So Google does lots and lots of updates, especially last month, but they do hundreds every year. A broad core update is something they introduced in 2018, or they started calling it a broad core update. And a broad core update, it’s when they make several broad changes to their ranking algorithm all at once. So it’s different than a normal Google update that they do hundreds of times each year, because it encompasses several different ranking factors.
How Often Dies Google Roll Out Broad Core Algorithm Updates? Lindsey:
How often are broad core updates issued as opposed to just regular algorithm updates?
Len:
They have been running these about three or four times each year. They started, I think it was August 1st, 2018. I’d have to look. And the first one, a lot of people called Medic because it really impacted a lot of medical websites. It didn’t really affect many of our attorneys, but we do have a couple of attorneys with very large sections on their website about medical things.
Should Law Firms Track Algorithm Updates? Lindsey:
And why is it important for law firms to stay abreast of these algorithm changes?
Len:
So usually, it’s not, if you have a good SEO company. Usually, it’s something that you can totally forget about. As for our one particular client who has a lot of medical related content, they do like to know about them. Even they tend to go up a little bit one algorithm update and then down a little bit the next, but they do impact other things in Google, such as review stars or featured snippets and traffic in general. It’s funny with their website, they can have a huge surge in traffic and it’s really because they’ll be ranking for one particular featured snippet, which drives a thousand hits a day. So even when their traffic changes, it’s not necessarily a good or a bad thing.
Lindsey:
So it definitely doesn’t just impact where their website is ranking on the organic search results. It can have an impact on where that website shows up on any of Google’s tools. So whether it’s on the featured snippets or organic listings or their reviews, so this can be something that impacts a lawyer’s marketing presence in a wide range, it sounds like.
Len:
Yes, correct. I wanted to add real quick that before we rebranded, we went by Telepost and we had documented some of these and we ended up getting the analytics data for hundreds of companies out there and were able to really dive in and look at some of the correlations on why some sites gained or lost traffic, and it really came down to site quality. There was a lot of websites ranking for things that really shouldn’t have been, and the algorithm did fix that.
Lindsey:
Wow. Yeah. These algorithms can definitely be a great tool for law firms who are using good SEO practices with solid backlinks and good bridge content that’s optimized for the web.
When was the July Google Broad Core Algorithm Update? So talking about this broad core update specifically, when did July’s algorithm updates start?
Len:
So it came in two parts. They started one… They didn’t have already. So they rolled out the first part of it in the beginning of June, and it actually took people a few days to see impact. This particular half of the algorithm update, they started July 1st and I started seeing changes in attorneys’ presences last night. So the night of July 1st and July 2nd, there’s definitely been a major change in Google search results.
Lindsey:
Interesting. How did you find out about this algorithm update? I mean, obviously today is… We’re just now starting into July. How do people find out when algorithm updates are going to happen or what the impact of them is?
Len:
So most people find out about an algorithm change about two months after it happens when they see a drop in their traffic. Unless you’re one of those people that monitors their traffic every day or every week, then they may notice it quicker. Google does have a Twitter account they use. It’s the Google SearchLiaison and they tweet out their core algorithm updates. I do have a few friends in the industry who very closely monitor what Google is doing. They usually know within about 20 minutes of them happening, which is… I don’t think anybody… It’s very unhealthy to monitor search results that fast, but that’s how you can find out about them.
The July 2021 Core Update, previously announced, is now rolling out:https://t.co/6Xs77WDsur
These typically take 1-2 weeks to finish. Our guidance about such updates is here:https://t.co/e5ZQUA3RC6
Here’s more on how we improve search through updates:https://t.co/IBmInwGOiX
— Google SearchLiaison (@searchliaison) July 1, 2021
Diagnosing Traffic Loss and Increases: Lindsey:
For most people, when they are looking at the increase in their traffic or the drop in their traffic, how do they diagnose that?
Len:
It gets tricky. They usually have somebody like us diagnose it for them. Otherwise, I’ve met hundreds and hundreds of people who’ve drawn the wrong conclusion. Even this month, there’s been many different updates and a lot of people see something and they point the finger at that. They’re like, “Oh, we did this and we shouldn’t have,” or, “It’s because our site’s not secure.” Or, “Maybe it’s because of these backlinks. We got four months ago.” It’s usually much, much, much more involved in that and there’s usually multiple items that can cause an increase or decrease in traffic. Or as we mentioned earlier, it might just be one page on your website that’s suddenly getting or not getting a featured snippet, which is driving a lot of traffic.
Should You Worry About Algorithm Updates? Lindsey:
Absolutely. With these hundreds of algorithm updates that go on throughout the year, some that you might be able to identify pretty quickly, some that Google announces, and then some that you identify just through traffic changes, how worried should law firms be about these algorithm updates?
Len:
Our clients shouldn’t worry about them much at all. Usually, you shouldn’t worry about them. Of course, in the world of personal injury, there is a certain level of backlink building that you have to do. Especially if you’re in a city like Los Angeles, there’s a couple of big firms that they represented Michael Jackson’s doctor and they’ve got press from all over the world. If you’re going to compete there, you have to build links. There is a certain amount of risk involved. There are some gray areas you’ll have to go into, but if you have somebody who’s very experienced in building your backlinks, you shouldn’t ever have… It’s very unlikely you’ll have a problem. We’ve never personally ever had any problems here with that. But if you do hire, for every good SEO agency, there’s 200 bad ones.
Len:
And a lot of them do build backlinks which can result in a manual action from Google, or even with this update, we’re seeing a very positive impact on a lot of our clients, which is rare. I’ve never even done a podcast here about the algorithm updates because it just never affects our attorneys. It’s usually these medical websites, news websites, big, big websites, but this one is definitely impacting attorneys. So if our clients are doing good, other law firms are doing bad. So they’re just not getting the quality of the links that they should be getting.
Website, Backlink & Content Advice: Lindsey:
Sure. It sounds like links play a really big, important role when it comes to the deciding factor of how Google ranks one website versus another. Other than backlinks, what goes into how Google decides how to rank certain websites?
Len:
So as far as attorneys go, they really just need an easy to use website. If you just forget that there are search engines, just make a good website that’s easy to use for people, that’s usually the first step. It should be fast, ease of use on a telephone, secure. It needs to be all those things. It’s 99% of it.
Lindsey:
And then once that website is in place and it’s user-friendly, how important is the content on the website?
Len:
So content quality is a big issue that we could read a book about, but it should definitely explain people’s legal issues to them at least enough to make them call, but the structure of it, where it’s placed on the website, how easy it is to read, those are all factors. Even something we’ve been guilty of in the past is building big walls of texts and [inaudible 00:10:07]. It’s good and comprehensive content. It should be broken up and easy to digest, maybe with some pictures or YouTube videos.
Lindsey:
Right. So it definitely sounds like no matter what the update to the algorithm is, so long as you have quality backlinks, a user-friendly website that’s mobile friendly, and content that is optimized for the website and easy to navigate and get useful information from, it sounds like you’ll be pretty safe from any algorithm update that Google rolls out. Do you agree?
Len:
Yes. Yeah. In general, yeah. Yeah. There are a couple more algorithm updates coming. One’s rolling out right now, called the Core Web Vitals, and there’s also a Google page experience update that is coming out. It’s not going to be a huge impact, but again, it’s just making sure you have a nice, clean website that loads quickly, is secure. It’s all common sense stuff. In the world of personal injury lawyers, a lot of them had that seven years ago. It’s a pretty competitive niche. So everybody is trying to make a really nice, high converting website in the first place.
Core Web Vitals and the Page Experience Update: Lindsey:
Absolutely. So are just doing more of the right things. Well, will keep you moving in the right direction. Well, and then Len, do we expect the July algorithm update to be completed all in one go, or is this something that is going to be lingering on for a while?
Len:
That’s a great question. It does vary. Some of this bounce around for about two weeks. So sometimes people will see a drop in traffic today and then in 10 days from now, it’ll come back. So it will be rolling out. They did say it’s going to take up to two weeks, but I did see a major impact today. So usually when that happens, there’ll be some tremors for a day or two, and then they’re done, but we will see. One thing I forgot to mention earlier about diagnosing updates is overlapping updates. So in June, for example, there was a spam update, and that rolled out on the 23rd and the 28th. But that probably won’t affect any lawyers. That was mostly spam websites, and when I say spam website, I’m referring to people ranking with hacked websites or hijacked websites where they’re just doing something really, really, really bad. We’re not talking about link building here. This is spam.
Lindsey:
All right. So that’s a great example of how the Google algorithm updates can definitely… They keep the bad websites in check and can help benefit the websites that are doing things the right way. So these algorithm updates are not necessarily something to be scared of if you’re doing things right.
Len:
Overall, we love the direction Google has been going. They’ve been making it a better place, a better search engine, which is good. That’s what they want to do to please their shareholders and usually, we’re looking forward to the algorithm updates and looking for any positive impact and we’re usually regionally very excited and happy when they roll up.
Contact OptimizeMyFirm with Algorithm Questions: Lindsey:
That’s great. And Len, if anybody has questions about how this or any other upcoming algorithm update is going to impact their site, how can they get in touch with you?
Len:
Yeah. Just by the contact form on optimizemyfirm.com. They can contact us right there. I’m certain there’s going to be questions from people who lost traffic, and we’ll be happy to answer any questions people have there.
Lindsey:
All right. Well, thank you so much, Len. We appreciate your time.
Len:
Thank you very much.
When a prospective client walks through your door for the first time, it is common sense to have your receptionist greet them.
But what happens when they walk through your law firm’s digital door? When a visitor arrives at your website, they should also be greeted by someone who can answer their questions and connect them with the right lawyer.
Ngage offers a unique live chat service specifically geared towards helping law firms convert website visitors into new clients.
Mark Shepherd explains how their platform integrates state-of-the-art features to connect with your future clients and improve your conversion rate.
Learn more about Ngage’s service platform at https://www.ngagelive.com/
With the surging popularity of video platforms like TikTok and YouTube, some super successful lawyers have launched viral video marketing campaigns. How did they do it? First, they had to master the simple basics of videography.
Video campaigns for lawyers do not require a full camera crew or expensive equipment. Legal marketing videographer, Martin Schlesinger, discusses how you can leverage the great camera that you already own – the one on your phone.
These tips and tricks can help any lawyer create interesting videos that prospective clients will actually watch.
Want to learn more? Connect with Martin Schlesinger via Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/martyschlesinger/
Transcript: Lindsey Busfield:
Welcome to The Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. And today we will be talking about all things video. Very few law firms use video effectively yet it can be one of the most powerful mediums to get clients in the door. Legal videographer and digital marketing expert Marty Schlesinger is here to talk to us about the best ways to use video in your marketing plan. After 10 years of experience in the legal marketing world, Marty has spearheaded video projects for every facet of web marketing. Welcome Marty. We’re so glad to have you with us.
Marty Schlesinger:
Yeah, thanks for having me, Lindsey. I’m excited to be here on the podcast.
Advantages of Using Video Lindsey Busfield:
Well, video is one of the most underused tools in marketing plans today. What are some of the advantages of using video?
Marty Schlesinger:
Sure. That’s a good question Lindsey. Video is for sure a powerful tool. In the fast paced content consuming world that we live in, it really should be leveraged as a mainstay and a legal toolkit in a marketer’s toolkit or even a lawyer’s toolkit. And for some, I know it can be a little bit overwhelming, but I promise you, it’s not. I’m hoping that throughout the podcast here, that I can help address some of the most common questions that folks may have, but also take some of the pressure of some of those that have been wanting to create the video content for yourself, your business, or your law firm.
Lindsey Busfield:
That’s great. What are some of the advantages of using video as opposed to just plain text?
Marty Schlesinger:
Sure. So video still images and the written word they’re all effective means for promoting yourself or your business. When we’re talking about promoting yourself on social, as well as on other digital platforms. I think it’s important to ask yourself what you’re looking to achieve with a post and overall with your brand. And in my mind, I sort of do a breakdown in terms of the benefits of each. So I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but the written word is really effective, especially for lawyers when used properly. And you take, for instance, your client alerts, your lawyer written articles, which are mainstays for a lot of law firms and something that clients expect now. But what the written board may lack in graphics and visual simulation really makes up for with the ability to describe a topic, however, complex.
Marty Schlesinger:
Now, in terms of still images and photography, these are really effective at quickly capturing someone’s attention, especially on social. Highlighting an article that you wrote with a relevant graphic is now not only expected these days, but it’s also a proven tactic to increase views and engagements. And for as quickly as your average personal scroll through a newsfeed these days, it’s a really great idea to post an attractive image. It will make the difference. Lastly, when it comes to video, which I know is a topic here in the podcast is it can be really effective if used correctly on your social platforms. Some of the reasons I like it so much is that video is really good at effectively summarizing complex ideas and boiling them down into bite sized chunks so that they’re digestible. That’s really the power when it comes to video.
Marty Schlesinger:
This is in contrast to written word, my first point about written copy. My second point, why it can be so effective is that video is really a humanizing tool, especially for lawyers, the viewers that see you and can hear you, they can now put a face and a voice to who you are, what you do and what you know, and that’s really important. This not only enhances your personal brand, but as long as you know what you’re talking about, it can instantly make you more credible and help to position you as a thought leader in your industry, which really at the end of the day, that’s really what we’re all trying to achieve here. And then lastly, I think video provides the opportunity for both the lawyer and the viewer to be a little more authentic. By that I mean, it promotes engagement, whether you’re trying to get clicks or likes or simply just promote engagement through emotion. Video really offers an effective means to strike an authentic cord with someone.
Lindsey Busfield:
That’s great. When the client is looking for an attorney to work with, they are wanting to work with the best in the industry. They’re looking for those thought leaders and they’re looking for somebody that they can connect with. And they’re looking for that authenticity.
Marty Schlesinger:
Exactly.
Lindsey Busfield:
And video is a really great way to deliver all of those in a very condensed way without having to work too hard of reading through all of them.
Marty Schlesinger:
You’re absolutely right. And I have multiple stories of just someone recording themselves. They weren’t really comfortable with it, but then they got a call from a prospect or from a client. And oftentimes it makes all the difference with your business.
Ways Attorneys May Use Video to Market Themselves: Lindsey Busfield:
Absolutely. So when lawyers think about videos, in my experience, they are just picturing videos embedded in their websites. You talked about social, what are all the ways that lawyers can use video to market themselves?
Marty Schlesinger:
Sure. That’s a good question, Lindsey. When it comes to the video [inaudible 00:05:19] website, when you use those strategically, it can be an effective means to encourage a call to action from your audience, increase your conversions, a phone call asking for an email, some sort of a download, but I think it’s important for folks to keep in mind that your website is really only one aspect of your online presence, your digital presence. I think video content when posted across multiple channels can be a really effective means of driving engagement and your brand awareness. More often than not the same piece of content, the video that you make and create that can be shared across all your accounts. And as we go, I can talk a little bit more about the tactics for social and dissemination for content, but for sure it shows you the power and flexibility of creating video content for yourself or for your firm.
Lindsey Busfield:
Sure. And when I think about website and when I think about social, using video across all these platforms is really important because again, it’s that first touch, that’s first humanization and the first connect. Many people are making with the attorneys. And so when you are creating a video, how do you actually get people to watch it? And you can have the best video in the world, but until you can get somebody to actually click on it and watch the video, how do you get them to make that first touch?
Marty Schlesinger:
Sure, sure. I feel like that’s the age old question is what you should record and when you record it, how will you know that your audience will like it, that they’ll want to engage with you? That it’ll be attractive, all of these things and especially for a law firm, that’s a big question. And just with my experience, it’s not always easy and it’s not always obvious. And again, that’s a good question. I want to try and address that here is that this should be top of mind when you’re looking to generate content. If you say you want to write an article or you want to record yourself, first off you should think about, do I have a tangible product or an intangible product?
Marty Schlesinger:
And just being able to break that down is helpful. So let’s say you have a tangible product creating content around how tos, product walkthroughs or features. These are some tried and true ways that you can really engage your audience. And that’s an obvious thing. You have a product and you can show it in front of the camera. It’s great. Shiny. Now, if you’re in the professional services’ industry and you have an intangible product, for instance, a law firm, it becomes critical to focus your efforts on specific topics and themes. So I actually have a list here. I’m going to list off a couple from my experience, especially for a law firm, some of the most popular topics and formats that I think a law firm can employ when generating video content. So I’ll list those off here. So I have three.
Marty Schlesinger:
So the first one is talking about industry updates or hot button issues. This is really a great way to engage your audience and also make yourself more credible at the same time. It goes back to my previous point, but just recording yourself in your office or you’re at home and talking about these topics that are important to clients or your prospects, addressing the issues that are keeping them up at night, that they’re really worried about. This is a really quick and effective way to generate targeted quality content. And I hear that time and time again, just really talking about these issues that are extremely important that are happening here now that you can really provide a little bit of analysis for a prospect for a client really makes a powerful impact. The next theme that I recommend is the question and answer format where you would interview another expert.
Marty Schlesinger:
These are the interviews that are common on news channels, where you tune in and you see an expert where they’re interviewing them and they’re answering questions, whether they’re in the newsroom there, or they’re at home coming in via, I guess, a virtual feed. With that said, I think inviting someone, a person can be a little bit tricky because now you need to think about more than one camera, the audio, Coronavirus restrictions, all of that. So I think to avoid the hassle, I recommend for professionals that are listening to this it’s easy enough just to tap into your professional network find a friend, a colleague, another expert, and just ask them to join you for a Skype call or a Zoom call. And just recording that content because obviously you’ll want their approval, but recording that content could become just a rich quality content. And as a case in point Lindsey, what you’re doing here with the podcast is just a fantastic example of that, just two professional colleagues, talking, recording, great content, it’s pretty easy, fairly painless.
Marty Schlesinger:
And the last format that I found to be really popular, especially on social is capturing an attendee soundbite using a man on the streets, sort of style recording. And I understand that’s a little bit harder to do since events aren’t really quite as popular these days, but just for instance, as an example, if you’re attending an event, what I mean by the man on the street style is that, you’re in between the event itself during the breaks, you’ve got people walking around the floor, they’re going to the vendors, et cetera, just finding someone, grabbing someone, especially if you’re hosting or sponsoring this event. It’s all the easier just to grab someone in between the break, ask them what they think about the event. What are things that are trending in the industry, some analysis and future trends that they can share with you. I found time and time again, that gets a lot of engagement posting that to your account, your social channels, that always folks want to see that stuff.
Topics for Personal Injury Attorneys: Lindsey Busfield:
So all of those are really great formats for different video types. But when looking at the content of the videos, what types of topics should personal injury lawyers be covering?
Marty Schlesinger:
Sure. That’s a good question. I know a lot of listeners are in this area. So more specifically, I know those themes that I listed off just a minute ago, those are more general, if you want to create engagement, but for more specifically for personal injury law firms and lawyers, I think it’s really important to emphasize and focus on topics that can answer a lot of these questions that would be keeping your clients up at night for these prospects, such as, when do personal injury courts reopen, how much is my case actually worth? That’s a common question that someone might have. That’s a common question that I would have. Does it matter if I’m in this accident, if I’m personally responsible, what do I do? How do I deal with insurance companies?
Marty Schlesinger:
Each of these questions can be a topic and individual topic for your content. So I really wouldn’t address more than one at a time because they’re important enough that you can make the video a standalone and folks will be interested enough to click on that. Watch what your quick analysis is. You want to tease them just to a little bit don’t let them have everything upfront, but you’ll want to tease them just to let them know that what you’re talking about, you’ve created successful outcomes for other clients and that you lead the industry in terms of your knowledge in those areas.
Lindsey Busfield:
Absolutely. It’s a great way to showcase that you can add value and that you really are the industry expert on all of the questions. It also shows that you’re very much tuned into the questions that they would be having. So I think those are great insights for videos that you could start with. I’m sure that many personal injury lawyers could come up with a list of a hundred questions answered really regularly. And each of those, as you said, could be a little video segment. And so in thinking about these small individual questions, how long should these videos be? About how long is somebody’s attention span when it comes to asking and wanting to get an answer for this question?
Marty Schlesinger:
Sure. It depends what it is, but especially for personal injury lawyer, if we’re just answering a question, I’m thinking that it should be maybe 60 seconds, maybe 90 seconds. I think to answer a question like this, especially if you’re not trying to tell them everything there is to know about this topic and about this question, really try to keep this short and sweet. Tell the viewer the most important things, highlighting the things that they should be thinking about here and now. If they’ve been involved in an accident, if they’re going to be going to court, things that are top of mind for them. So if you extend past that you’re going to lose their interest, you’re going to drone on about things that may not be important. So if we’re shifting away a little bit from the personal injury focus and highlighting that, and if we’re just talking about general stuff, such as you’re promoting a webinar or an event that’s about 30 to 60 seconds, I think.
Marty Schlesinger:
And then if we’re talking about things that are more complex, such as perhaps there was a change in the personal injury law, and you need to try and analyze that and you want to share that I think we’re talking about a minute and a half, two minutes, maybe even longer depends how complex it is. And lastly, if we’re talking about training or anything educational nature, I think at least a couple of minutes, five or more, but it depends on what you’re doing, what the goal is here, but that’s just sort of a rule of thumb for me.
DIY vs Videographer: Lindsey Busfield:
So as you’re thinking about the ideas for creating different videos and you are getting excited about them, is it something that you need to hire an external agency to film? Or is it something that you can do in-house?
Marty Schlesinger:
Yeah, that’s a really great question. And a question that I actually hear quite a lot of. There’s pros and cons to having someone in-house, pros and cons of doing it yourself and pros and cons to hiring an agency. In my opinion, you don’t need an agency nine times out of 10. The only time you would need to hire an agency is you want to do a multi-camera setup. For instance, you’re interviewing one or more experts and you want it to look really good, or you need to create a professional grade, or you’re making a TV commercial, essentially you would need to hire an agency for that. But taking a step back with the popularity of smartphones, maybe worthwhile, especially if you don’t know anything about it and you want to start creating your own content and you have a smartphone, it may be worthwhile to learn the basics for just cleaning up the recording and then making the post on your own social channel.
Marty Schlesinger:
So just the basics of learning how to trim, just to start the video, the fluff where you’re trying to warm yourself up, clear your throat and at the end where you’re turning off the video and it’s a slow shaky. So just learning how to trim the start and the at the end is really valuable. And these days I can’t speak to Android, but I have an iPhone. iPhone makes it really easy where you can just record yourself. And immediately after the recording, you see the option to trim it right there, trim the front, trim the end, and then you have the option to upload to your LinkedIn or your Twitter.
Marty Schlesinger:
It literally takes 20 seconds. So that’s really convenient. And it’s not that hard. The last thing I’ll say on this point is if you are looking to get something a little more complicated, like if you want an animated logo or some sort of a bumper, just something more complicated than there are options such as freelance sites, such as Fiverr and Upwork.com. These are great resources for finding an expert in the editor just to help you with a project. And they won’t usually cost an arm or leg.
Equipment Needed to Shoot Videos: Lindsey Busfield:
That’s really good to know. I know that there are a lot of advanced video features meanwhile the iPhone is great and great for production quality, and it’s just very simple to use. There are some other things that you can add to a video that makes them a little bit more professional. So absolutely. And so you have your iPhone, what other equipment do you need to shoot a good quality video?
Marty Schlesinger:
So I wish I could say it’s just a matter of holding your iPhone in front of you hitting record, and you’ve got the best looking thing you can ever have. And unfortunately it’s a little more complicated than that, but it’s not that bad. As long as you know just a few things, you can really enhance the quality of how you look and how you sound. So I’d say there were really three important things that someone can do to enhance the quality of the video. And this comes from over 10 to 15 years of experience, generally in the video and audio area. And those three things are proper lighting, proper audio, and just having a tripod. So if you’re able to achieve all three of these, your set. Lighting, I feel like is one of those things that we take for granted and it’s everywhere, but except on our face, when we do a recording, we have these harsh shadows from the fluorescent lights on the ceiling or we find ourselves in a dark corner of a room. And then afterwards, we’re like, why does that look bad?
Marty Schlesinger:
So an easy fix is really to always just be mindful to place yourself facing a window with natural sunlight. You’ve got that natural sunlight in your face, or you can purchase an external light. Maybe if you don’t have a window in that room, just having a light on top of your laptop or a computer just to aluminate the shadows on your face makes a big difference. So for audio again, there’s two options here. Most people prefer just to use the built-in microphone on their phone or camera and that’s fine. In some cases it’s not the best microphone in the world, but oftentimes it’s good. It’s above average. And as long as you’re close enough to your phone or your camera, when you’re speaking, you should be fine.
Marty Schlesinger:
I’d say no more than two feet away. I think we’ve all watched the video or hear podcasts where it sounds like someone’s talking from across the room and they’re in a hallway. And so it’s just a matter of having your mouth close enough to the microphone. That’s really all it is. The other option for audio is to purchase an external microphone. I’ll talk about that in a second here, but lastly, just a tripod and I can’t stress this enough, in school, this is something professors beat into us as always use a tripod. And these days smartphone tripods are pretty cheap and they make all the difference to not have that shaky shot.
Marty Schlesinger:
But even if it’s just using your encyclopedias, you use your books, your old [inaudible 00:19:56] books that you may not be looking at anymore, just to prompt your phone up, to avoid that shaky shot, that’ll be a big deal. And again, it makes all the difference. So I have a couple of the recommendations for the lights, audio, even a tripod, whether you’re trying to do a setup at home or in the office. And just to save everyone a little bit of time here. I’ve created a checklist and a small how-to guide for the folks that are listening to the podcast here, and I’ve provided it to Lindsey. And Lindsey has graciously agreed to share the guide with you all. It’s a free guide. So I’m sure she’ll let you know where to find it.
Do’s, Dont’s and What To Wear: Lindsey Busfield:
Yep. We’ll have a link for you to sign up, to join the list, to get access to that really fantastic resource list with all of the equipment that Marty recommends, as well as the tips and tricks to how to create a very professional high grade video for use in your firm to get more clients engaged. What are some of the tricks like, what are you going to wear or natural? What are some of the things that people should and shouldn’t do before they get in front of the camera?
Marty Schlesinger:
Sure. Yeah. These are the things, especially when it comes to lighting audio and they seem obvious, but then when you record yourself, you’re like, “Oh, that doesn’t look good. Why didn’t I think of that?” But it’s not something to feel bad about. It is somewhat of an art form, but again, once you know, what you should do and shouldn’t do, it becomes really easy. So in terms of what you should wear or perhaps not wear, there’s a few simple rules that I follow. And this is even working with the lawyers that I’ve worked quite a bit with in front of the camera. So in terms of the colors that you should be wearing, this usually refers to just your upper half since that’s what folks will see nine times out of 10, is that where the colors such as your deep reds, your dark teals, rich greens, your purples, your grays, those are all colors that work well.
Marty Schlesinger:
The pastels, rich jewel tones, it depends on your skin type, but you watch something that will have a good contrast with your skin, as well as the backdrop, as well as something that will just look pleasing to the eye for the viewer. The colors tool [inaudible 00:22:09] though, I would say, would be pure white, pure black, true green and true red. It’s just something about camera sensors. They don’t like these colors and they don’t usually look good on camera or just in general. So I would avoid those. I would also tell people to avoid complicated patterns or stripes on their clothing. Again, this is just a camera sensor thing, just in general, where solid colors for your top. And you’ll be good and you’ll look great. In terms of jewelry and accessories, something that’s often overlooked is that your jewelry, your watch any kind of a bracelet you might be wearing will almost always make a distracting noise.
Marty Schlesinger:
So just try to take that stuff off even if it’s an earring that’s hanging low that may make noise. You should know that the microphone will pick that up. And also if you wear glasses and have the option of contacts, that’s always the way to go, to avoid the glare from the lights. And then in terms of just making yourself look good, one last check before you hit the record button just check your face for shine. Chapstick is also an industry secret that a lot of news anchor will use right before they’re on air, shiny lips apparently are attractive.
Be Yourself: Lindsey Busfield:
Don’t want to have the chapped lip showing up. So now that everybody is beautiful, getting ready to get on camera. How do you make it so that you look a little bit more natural and not robotic as you’re trying to talk about these?
Marty Schlesinger:
Yeah. When we talk to someone in person it’s natural to act natural because that’s what we do and that’s what we know. And we’re all human, it’s wired in us to do that. But then when we look at a cold camera lens, it becomes, we shut down, we turn off, we turn into a robot and there’s a few things that have worked for me over the years and a few things that I’ve actually worked with lots of lawyers that have worked for them. And just trying to keep some of these things in the back of your mind and preparing right before you record can be really helpful. So I have three small things here in terms of advice that I think will help folks that are listening.
Marty Schlesinger:
The first one is just to relax and speak naturally. And as I said earlier the tendency is to sometimes be cold and calculated. But what you want to do is just view the lens, view the camera as a neighbor of yours. Now this is just if you’re recording yourself and you’re not Skyping someone because then it becomes a lot easier. But if you’re just recording yourself and you want to do an industry update just treat them as a neighbor, treat the lens like a neighbor where you’re having a conversation and just let things flow naturally. The second point I’ll make in terms of acting naturally is something that’s often underestimated and overlooked is the body language and facial expressions. Expressions and even overexpression, it almost always translates well in front of the camera.
Marty Schlesinger:
So don’t be afraid to use your eyebrows, your hands, your face, be expressive. A lot of folks, I find just sort of freeze their face and they just have monotone voice. So don’t be afraid to use all that stuff, again translates well. And the last thing I’ll say here in terms of acting naturally is just trying to smile. It sounds cheesy, but smiling is really a great way to not only enhance your on-camera presence, but also it improves the likelihood that someone will trust you. And it should never feel forced. Just even thinking about smiling as you speak is enough to organically radiate your tone and expression, and is with the equipment checklist and what to wear checklist that I’ve added in the document that Lindsey will share with you. I’ve added in some points, some advice for acting and speaking naturally here.
Lindsey Busfield:
That’s great. Those will all make a big, big difference. The last thing that you want to do is you plan a really great video is to ruin it by A wearing the wrong thing or completely robotic in front of the camera. And both of those things with a little bit of practice and a little more thought can take an okay video to a really fantastic video. Well, thank you so much, Marty, for having us today. If people have more questions or want to talk to you further about videography opportunities, where can people get in touch with you?
How To Get in Touch with Marty: Marty Schlesinger:
My LinkedIn profile is the best place to get in touch with me. I also have an email address and Lindsey, I think you said you’ll help provide that information for folks, but LinkedIn, or send me an email. Happy to answer any questions. If anyone has any questions or concerns or even working on recording the video for themselves with a law firm, feel free to reach out, happy to do pointers for you or even work with you. So feel free to reach out.
Lindsey Busfield:
Well, thank you so much, Marty. We really appreciate your time.
In this episode, Chris Mullins, aka “The Phone Sales Doctor”, provides absolutely wonderful tips on intake specialists. Intake specialists are very important for personal injury law firms and all types of attorneys.
Chris Mullins discusses the difference between a receptionist and an intake specialist, screening question, training, empathy, salesmanship and general intake problems and solutions.
Chris is the author of Law Firm Conversions and Intake Specialists: The Unsung Heroes of Law Firms Worldwide.
Chris Mullins may be reached via email at phonesuccessdoctor@gmail.com or by phone at 603-249-5878.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Transcript Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the most important topics in the legal marketing world. No matter how much money you spend on making your phone ring, if your intake specialist or receptionist isn’t converting a lead into a client, you’re losing money. There are a few important tips you can use to help convert your leads into clients. With us today as the author of Law Firm Conversions, Chris Mullins, who is “The Phone Sales Doctor” for intake specialists and attorneys. Thank you so much for joining us, Chris.
Chris Mullins:
Oh my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Difference between Receptionists and Intake Specialists: Lindsey:
Intake specialists are important for any type of lawyer and law practice, but especially for personal injury attorneys. But there’s a fine line between an intake specialist and a receptionist. Do you mind walking us through what the differences are?
Chris Mullins:
Yeah. I mean, I guess I would say in the old days, because I’ve been doing this for 25 years now, and a long, long time ago, you would find law firms of all sizes, small law firms and even large law firms, just using a receptionist to be what a receptionist is supposed to be, which is just greeting people, transferring the calls to the right person, getting them safely and in a timely way to the right person, passing the baton, but they also had them do an intake too. And I mean, just logically, it doesn’t work.
I mean, intake, you can have an average phone call be 30 minutes for a personal injury intake, and how can that receptionist focus on people coming in when we did go into the office, and we still go into the office right now with protection, but how could they do that plus be a sales person because that’s what intake is? What I do notice now is we’re focusing more on having reception and then having an intake team.
The difference is a receptionist is simply there to be the first impressions person on the phone initially before they get to intake and also to be the first impressions director when people walk in and to just guide people to get to the right place. And sometimes they do miscellaneous clerical tasks if the phone’s not ringing, but their priority is that phone and getting clients where they need to go and prospects where they need to go, not sales. Intake should be doing sales.
What Kind of Information Should Intake Specialists Generate? Lindsey:
That’s a great distinction. You talked about how the intake specialist call can be up to half an hour even, what types of information should an intake specialist be generating on that call?
Chris Mullins:
Honestly, that question is a perfect question for the attorney or the attorneys at the law firm to decide, because they studied the law. They know what questions to be asked in order for the intake specialist to determine, does this person qualify based on these questions and answers that we can help them at our law firm. The intake specialist is not going to know the law, and they’re not going to know that. The lawyers need to get together and decide what those questions are. But in personal injury, the questions… Each law firm is different.
They run it differently. I mean, they can be questions like, how did the accident happen? It can be, did you go to the hospital? Was there a citation? Did you have your cell phone on? Did you give them your insurance information? Did you talk to the other driver? There’s all kinds of questions, but it really needs to be… They’re called screening questions, and they need to be designed by the lawyer and they should be at a minimum.
Sometimes I notice law firms have long, long list of questions for intake specialists to ask and a lot of the questions aren’t necessary. Just determine what’s the minimum amount of questions we legally need to have answered to know if we can help this person or not, and then have the intake specialist ask those screening questions.
Lindsey:
That’s absolutely important because every call is going to be a little bit different, every case is going to be a little bit different, so things do need to be personalized. When somebody is asked a series of questions that clearly isn’t relevant to the type of case they have, they can tell that they’re being treated like just a number as opposed to a person and a prospective client. And as a prospective client, they can be really turned off by that lack of empathy to their particular case, even from the first call.
The Importance of Empathy: I know that you have written quite a bit on empathy and that’s something that you find is a very important quality. How can you help people, intake specialists in particular, be more empathic to the people who are calling in?
Chris Mullins:
Yeah, it really is… On one hand, empathy comes from the heart. So I believe that everybody, all humans, have love, care, and concern for other people, and they want the best for other people. But not all people, humans, know how to show that. They don’t know how to deliver that, even in their personal life, let alone their professional life talking to a stranger over the phone. And a lot of people are uncomfortable with empathy. I work with CEOs and managing partners, as well as intake specialists, and they’re just uncomfortable.
They feel like they’re crossing a line, a personal intimate line that they shouldn’t do. They also feel like, well, if I’m empathetic, then this person is going to want me to tell them an empathetic story of my own. So it is very difficult. It’s probably one of the most difficult things I have to coach people on, but I teach them to listen to the story. There is a story in the conversation. So as they’re asking screening questions, which is an internally focused task. Internally focused means we the law firms need these questions answered so we know what to do.
Those are internal questions. Do more of external questioning and focus, which means you’re focusing on love, care, and concern for that person and the relationship, and the best way to do that is to put your listening ears on. And when you hear Mr. Or Mrs. Smith tell you about their tragedy, their incident, whatever it is, with the accident, drop everything. Just stop. Stop talking. Stop asking questions and just give them some empathy.
And I usually will give students like a list of empathetic phrases that they can start with, but it’s good if you create your own, because I think people are more comfortable when they can say their own. But you can just say things like, “I am so sorry to hear that.” It can be that simple, or, “That’s a terrible situation, or I couldn’t imagine being in your shoes. Are you okay? You’ve been going through so much. I couldn’t even imagine it.” Teaching empathy takes time.
You have to provide examples and coaching and guidance, and you also have to give intake specialists permission to be empathetic, permission to wear their heart on their sleeves, permission to be vulnerable. And you have to coach them and guide them that yes, the people you talk to might start crying, and that’s uncomfortable for people. Even face-to-face down the street when you go for a walk and you bump into somebody, it’s very uncomfortable. You have to coach all of these things and teach them. But without empathy, you can’t convert.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. And I think that those are all great points and great examples. And when people are going to a personal injury lawyer in particular, it’s always because something bad has happened and their lives had been turned upside down, and they need to turn to someone who is empathetic and who they can trust, not only on a legal aspect and on a professional aspect, but they can trust to help navigate through this process that clearly has their life in turmoil.
Chris Mullins:
Let me just say one other thing about that real quick. What’s important with the empathy is it starts at the top. If you, the CEO, the managing partner, the COO, the attorney that owns the firm, depending on the size, you’re called something different, if you are empathetic to your team, then that will teach them empathy also. And then you also need to them permission to be empathetic, because mostly what we do as the leaders is we just give them the screening questions and we say, “Go for it.” We give them the impression that we want them to get on the phone and off. We forget because we don’t do it, empathy. That’s what we’ve got to do.
Other Important Characteristics of Intake Specialists: Lindsey:
That’s great. That’s absolutely true. What other characteristics should you be encouraging and coaching your intake specialists to have? What other traits should you be looking for when you’re hiring intake specialists? What other personality tidbits?
Chris Mullins:
When you’re hiring, what you really want to do… They don’t have to have experience in a law firm, and actually it would be better if they didn’t, because they’re just going to bring baggage of what they knew from the previous law firm. And during the interview process, it’s a sales process for them too, and they’re going to sell you on the fact that, “Oh no, I can learn new things. I can wipe the slate clean and start over.”
But what’s going to happen is when they’re in that role, if they’ve already been in that role before, it’s going to come out, and they’re going to end up taking a stand that they know better. They know the answers. Their past and their experience is the correct way and I’m going to teach you how to do it. That’s what’s going to come out. Even if they don’t mean it to come out that way, it’s just natural because that’s their habit and behavior. It’s better to hire folks that have not been in the legal world, have not been an intake specialist.
It’s best to hire people first for integrity. Integrity is critical. Next is character. Do they have the right character? Ask them questions that relate to integrity and character. Ask them to tell you stories about their past. Not just the jobs, but in life in general. Do they have that love, care, and concern, spirit? Do they have strong work ethics? People that used to work at restaurants or in retail or on a farm, those kinds of folks are perfect because they are hardworking.
They get dirty. They’re on their feet all day. They work all kinds of crazy hours, and they work really, really hard. Those are the kinds of people that you want. You also could hire people that work in customer service or in call centers. Because, again, at a real call center or a real customer service department, they are run efficiently, and they focus on metrics, and they focus on sales. That’s the S word that most people don’t like to hear. They also focus on the other S word, scripts. Most people don’t like to hear that, but you need to use them.
They’re used to sitting at their phone all day long, taking calls, all kinds of calls, selling, cross-selling, upselling, handling disgruntled people. So they’re already used to sitting there and doing that. These are the kinds of people that you want. But I would say first and foremost is integrity and character and some history on them giving examples of where they came from, examples on work ethics, that sort of thing.
Lindsey:
That’s fantastic to build up a great team of people that have a great diverse background, who have experienced working with people and customers in all walks of life and helping them to navigate towards the next step, whether it is a conversion into a client or conversion into a sale. Those are all incredibly important aspects. Once you get the right people in place and you get them talking to the leads, I know that from our experience listening to LSAs and helping to manage LSA accounts, we’ve heard some really great intake specialists who are very empathetic.
Note: We read Intake Specialists: The Unsung Heroes of Law Firms Worldwide ourselves and it is a must read.
How To Kill a Good Lead: Lindsey:
They can ask the right questions, and they can really help convert this lead into a client and bring it to the next step. There are some other calls that we have helped navigate and listened to and provided feedback on that are not so exceptional, either the intake specialist forgot to get the person’s name or phone number, or just basic information. But in your experience, what are some of the things that can kill a call?
Chris Mullins:
Having no empathy will definitely kill it. Just forget about it. It’s over. The statistics show that prospective clients will call three to five of your competitors before they make their final decision. They might make a decision to work with you during the process, but that doesn’t mean they’re not going to hang up and do their due diligence and call the other law firms. We’ve got to keep that in mind. You also got to keep in mind that there are… Write this down. There are no do overs. That’s it.
You already spent the time, money, energy, and effort in marketing dollars with the right folks, like you guys, to get these leads to come through, and you only have one shot, one call, from the start to the finish. You got to take that ball over the goal line. You can’t redo it. Just one shot. That’s all you have. Those things are really important for people to keep that in mind, to keep in mind of this competition, to keep in mind this is about providing help and healing and building relationships to this person.
But at the same time, we’re in business and it is sales. We do want to focus on converting. Making sure that you get the name of the person at the beginning of the call, the very beginning of the call, and use it throughout the call. And if somebody is calling on somebody else’s behalf, get the person’s name that’s calling and the person they’re calling for, and then use both names throughout the conversation and build the story. The other thing that’s really important is to ask permission to ask questions.
After you’ve welcomed them… We have like a five step relationship sales conversion script that we teach people to use. The first step is to welcome them to your firm. The next thing is to go ahead and get their name and use their name in the conversation. And then another step is ask permission to ask questions before you ask the questions. Before you dive in and ask those screening questions, ask them. Say, “I’d like to ask you some questions to see how we can help you. Would that be okay?” And wait for the answer.
Now this person knows… First off, you’ve controlled the call. You’re in control, and they see, “Oh, they’re the driver. They’re in control,” and they’re feeling a little bit better because you’re warm and you’re smiling, and you’re telling them what’s going to happen next. And they’re realizing, “Oh, this is the process,” because they don’t know the process. “Oh, they’re going to ask me some questions, and I just gave them permission.” They didn’t just dive in and sound like what we call license and registration.
Asking those intake screening questions like your license and registration or it’s like a survey. You don’t want to do that. And also, doing these little steps helps the intake specialist, because they have a very difficult job. They have chosen a very difficult career. They can easily take on the trauma of the people calling. It’s a whole nother issue to discuss someday. But after they get permission, then they go into this screening questions. But when you ask screening questions, what I want you to do is I want you to sing and I want you to check in.
Singing means as you ask the questions, annunciate and change the inflection and tone of your voice as you ask the questions, just like I just did, and soften your voice. Don’t just drill down to the questions. “And my next question is. And now the next series of questions I might ask you might be a little bit difficult, but we do need to ask them. If you need a break, let me know. That’s hugely powerful.” So soften your voice in saying, and then the check in is periodically. As you’re asking the questions, simply check in with them.
“So Mrs. Smith, is everything okay so far? Did you have any questions about what I’ve mentioned so far? Okay, great. Now, Mrs. Smith, I want to double-check something and then type it into my computer. I think you just said XXX. Did I get that right?” “Yes, you did.” “Fantastic. Great. Just a few more questions. You’re doing a great job.” Compliment them. That’s part of the check in. “You’re doing a great job answering these questions, and I want to tell you that you made the right decision calling XYZ law firm today. This is all we do.
We get questions in cases like this all the time. You’re in good hands.” And that can be part of your screening question process. Those are the things that you need to do. That’s empathetic. It’s salesmanship. It’s love, care, and concern. They have a higher likelihood of telling you the truth. Don’t think just because you’re asking intake screening questions they’re going to tell you the truth, right? You want them to tell you the truth.
And then the next thing that you want to do, and notice how I laid this out, the next thing I want you to do is get all the contact information. First, your relationship and your conversation is top heavy. Relationships first, business second. Most law firms immediately say, “Can I be first and last name? Can I have the phone number you’re calling from in case we get disconnected? Can I have your address? Can I have your email? Can I have your cell number?” They just go into all of that.
Now, if you want to say at the beginning, “Can I have your phone number just in case we get disconnected,” that’s okay, but do it in a singing kind of way and always repeat it. But me, I just laid out how to ask the screening questions, the style to do it, the way to do it with salesmanship. And then the next step is now you get their contact information. Now you say, “Okay. Now that we’ve gotten all this information that we need to see how we can help you the best, let me just get down your contact information.”
Tell them what you’re going to do, and then ask for what you need. Get everything. Spell it all back. And then say to them, and this is like the call to action, then say to them, “Okay. Well, Mrs. Smith, based on what you said.” Now really important to say that, because you’re about to tell them the decision, the call to action, which is salesmanship to whatever they said to you. “So Mrs. Smith, based on what you said, this is a case we can help you with and here’s how we can help you.” Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
It’s different for every firm. Or, “Mrs. Smith, based on what you said, this is not a case that we can help you with at this time, but here’s how we can help you.” Change your voice, change your tone, be positive, say the word help, and have some resources available for them, and give them some empathy and encourage them to not give up, to still call those resources, to still seek out help. And then the end of the call is really what I call the big red bow, and that’s where you kind of wrap everything up and you thank them for calling, and you tell them you look forward to whatever the next step was in the call to action.
Maybe it was an appointment. Maybe it’s a DocuSign retainer. Whatever it is, we look forward to you doing XXX. You remind them of the date and time if that was part of the call to action. You go ahead and you say to them what I call a verbal contract, and you say, “Now Mrs. Smith, you’re going to talk to attorney Jones today at two o’clock. If for any reason you can’t make it, would you just promise to give me a call at,” and repeat the phone number, “that way we won’t worry about you.
We can get you rescheduled, and we can give that time to someone else’s who’s waiting.” Question mark. Pause. Wait for the answer. And that’s how you do the call.
Lindsey:
That’s great. Wow. What a great step-by-step approach to that. I know that that is so backwards and yet very profoundly helpful from what many attorneys out there are doing, where they do have the script, but it’s the wrong script, and it’s a very robotic and not very person-centric script. That’s so helpful and I think that that could be a very, very powerful tool.
Should Attorneys Answer the Phone Themselves? Lindsey:
One of the other things that I have noticed, and I would love to get your insight on this, is attorneys who answered the phone themselves, or the attorneys who take the call on the initial pass-through. What are your thoughts on that?
Chris Mullins:
A couple of things. And again, I work with all kinds of law firms, all different size personal injury firms. They might have one intake specialist or one attorney or more, or they might have a really big firm, and everybody has the same challenges. Believe it or not. It doesn’t matter what the size is. The first thing is for the attorney to be the intake specialist and the receptionist answering the phone is really not the best way to run your business, because it’s not positioning you as a professional busy law firm that everybody wants.
It’s not the way to do it. If there’s a situation where a law firm has to do it that way, they have no choice for whatever the reason is, then you’ve got to do the skills that we’re talking about. You got to nail it. Just because you happen to be the attorney, doesn’t mean that you can just rush right through it. If for some reason you really have to, you got to nail it. Do it the right way. But I would recommend that you find a way to get at least one other person to help you.
How could you spend all this money on marketing to get leads, to get business, but yet you’re not protecting yourself to convert. So having an intake specialist that knows what they’re doing is what I call a marketing insurance policy. It will protect your leads. Now, the other question, which happens much, much more often these days, of having like say intake, then pass the call off to the attorney, that’s okay. It depends on the law firm.
If the law firm is organized and they have a process and they’re structured, it’s okay to have the attorney either double qualified if it’s the right person, then it goes back to intake again. It’s okay that it’s like intake first, attorney, back to intake. That’s not a worry. My worry is how was the call handled when it went from intake to attorney, back to intake? Was it the way we’re talking about? If so, awesome. No problem. It wasn’t like fumbling and everybody was on hold for like a really long period of time because of the transfer.
That’s not okay. Was the attorney, which I run into a lot, which is why we work with attorneys too, was the attorney terrible on the phone with no empathy and didn’t know anything about it? Then that’s not going to work. It really depends on how it’s being handled. And if it’s going to go intake specialist, attorney buttons everything up and it’s done and it doesn’t go back to intake, if it works for their numbers, it’s okay as long as everybody is doing what we just talked about.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. Yeah. An attorney needs to be able to have these skills. Anybody needs to be able to have these skills as they’re talking to a prospective client and they are treating them as a human and trying to convert them into a long-term client to trust them with their business.
Closing: Lindsey:
Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been highly informative, and I know that there are some great takeaways that attorneys will be able to implement right after doing these. And hopefully they will see some very impactful changes, and they’ll be able to coach their intake team. Thank you so much, Chris, and we look forward to talking to you again soon.
Chris Mullins:
Thank you.
How To Contact Chris Mullins: Contact Chris today and get your intake specialists and brand ambassadors the training they need.
- Email: phonesuccessdoctor@gmail.com
- Phone: 603-249-5878
- Book: Law Firm Conversions
- Book: Intake Specialists: The Unsung Heroes of Law Firms Worldwide
In this podcast, Tom Boyle, Co-Founder of TrustBooks, discusses how TrustBooks helps not just Personal Injury Attorneys, but many other attorney types manage their trust accounts and meet State Bar compliance.
TrustBooks also now offers full legal accounting. After years of positive feedback and requests, TrustBooks has now expanded to offer an accounting software with a 100% focus on law firms.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Learn more about TrustBooks on their website here: https://trustbooks.com/.
Transcript: Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. It’s remarkably easy for personal injury lawyers to be penalized or disbarred for mishandling settlement trusts. Fortunately, TrustBooks expanded their software with tools that are specifically designed to help attorneys streamline their trust management process. Joining us today is Tom Boyle, the co-founder of TrustBooks. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Tom:
Thanks, Lindsey. Happy to be here.
How did TrustBooks Get Started? Lindsey:
Well, you have recently received several accolades for developing the trust management and accounting software that’s specifically designed for the legal industry. Tell me a little bit about the software. What does it do? How is it different from other accounting softwares that are out there?
Tom:
Yeah, perfect. We started TrustBooks about six years ago, and we started it to basically solve a pain point that a lot of small law firms experience where the existing tools of QuickBooks and Excel and spreadsheets, they’re just not designed to help a lawyer with their trust bank account. And that’s what we started off to solve. Six years ago, we built TrustBooks to make it just super easy for a law firm to manage their trust account, meet state bar compliance.
TrustBooks Now Offers Full Legal Accounting: And then as we’ve been working with our users over the past six years, the feedback we’ve been getting kind of overwhelmingly is, “Hey, we love TrustBooks. You all made this process super easy. The anxiety and fear around the trust account is relieved. We wish that you all existed for our operating bank accounts.” We’ve been hearing that enough, enough, enough that finally we said, “Okay, I think it’s time for us to expand and evolve to not just handle the trust bank account, but also handle the operating bank account.”
For the past year and a half, it’s taken a while to build this out. But for the past year and a half, we’ve been working on making TrustBooks full legal accounting. We are now an accounting software with 100% focused on law firms, and it’s really that mentality to just make it easy. We kind of come at this approach of accounting doesn’t have to be hard. You don’t have to go use a real complex tool like QuickBooks. It’s built for all industries, all people, and can get lost in the weeds of trying to do it.
If you’ve got the right tool, then this accounting process should be very, very simple and easy. And that’s what we launched. We launched full legal accounting about three or four weeks ago. We’re early into 2021, and knock on wood, everything’s been going really, really well so far.
Trust Accounts and State Bar Compliance: Lindsey:
Well, that’s fantastic. Congratulations on that new launch. I’m so glad that we were able to dive into that a little bit with you here. Tell me what makes legal accounting and trust management different from other industries? What specific pain points are you trying to solve?
Tom:
Yeah, good question. Within legal accounting, if you’re managing your firm operating account, which feeds into your firm financials like a balance sheet and a P&L statement, that’s pretty straightforward. Most law firms are cash based, especially the small law firms. Cash in is typically revenue, cash out is typically an expense, and that’s pretty straightforward. What gets a little tricky when it comes to law firms is around the trust account.
With the trust bank account, there are specific rules and regulations that you’ve got to follow to meet state bar compliance. And this is one of those kind of domino areas that can get lawyers in trouble up to a potential disbarment. In North Carolina, for example, we’ve got stats that we can pull out and look at the bar journals, and it’s always the number one way attorneys get disbarred is this mismanagement of the trust account.
As you kind of look at what does that entail, what does that mean to manage a trust bank account, what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to say, “All right, I’ve got a bank account. I’m holding money in this kind of fiduciary role, this fiduciary capacity on behalf of my clients or third parties. And within that role, I’ve got to make sure that all the money in, all the money out gets allocated on a client by client basis.” That’s what’s key is that this money in, money out, all gets assigned to clients.
That at any given time, you need to know how much money you’ve got in your trust bank account on a client by client basis. And then at the month end, when you go to do a reconciliation, you can real quickly see, here’s all my client lists, here’s my balances. How does that reconcile back to my bank statement? And that’s an area where a lot of attorneys get in trouble.
We call it a three-way trust reconciliation or a three-way reconciliation, where you reconcile your bank statement to your trust ledger, to the individual client and their balances, and you make sure that all three of those numbers match, so your bank statement, your trust ledger, and then the sum of your client balances. And within legal accounting, if you’re just trying to use kind of traditional accounting software, it’s that third piece that really fails attorneys.
That getting to the client ledgers, making sure that you can show all your client balances, how that reconciles back to the bank statement, this kind of inability to deficit spend on a specific client balance, that’s where attorneys get into a lot of trouble if they’re using traditional accounting software, QuickBooks, Excel, doing it by hand. And that’s what we kind of tackle. That’s what we wanted to solve is, how do you build something from the ground up? It’s focused on this one pain point, so we can be laser focused.
And since we are laser focused, we can make it really simple. We don’t have to do all these bells and whistles out of the gate. We went out six years ago to say, “We’re going to solve the trust accounting piece.” And by doing that, we were able to build it very, very easily, very simply, intuitive workflow built for attorneys. And ultimately, it gets them that client ledgers, those three-way reconciliations, all the things that they need to do to check off that compliance box with their state bar.
Lindsey:
I’m sure that when they see that all the numbers are aligning, it’s a huge anxiety off their shoulder.
Tom:
It’s a good feeling. Yeah, for sure.
Lindsey:
And especially managing all of the different moving pieces with different clients that I would imagine to be very, very helpful and not a tool that most software would incorporate.
Tom:
Well, I can tell you from doing this for six years, from talking to thousands and thousands of attorneys, accounting is like one of the least favorite things that they want to do. Trust accounting is even further on that list. The fact that they know that it’s kind of scary and overwhelming and anxiety that they could get disbarred if they mismanagement, that’s real prevalent. And then it’s dealing with accounting, which is… I don’t know. I’ve yet to find that attorney that went to law school because they wanted to do accounting. Usually those two don’t go hand in hand.
Lindsey:
Not so much. Lawyers went to law school because they want to be lawyers.
Tom:
That’s right.
Lindsey:
The accountants, they would have, I guess, gone to accounting school.
Tom:
Yeah, yeah, that’s me. Yep. Yep. We’re the nerds in the group.
Is TrustBooks Just for Personal Injury Attorneys? Lindsey:
That’s all right. Were there particular attorneys that you had in mind that this would benefit more than others?
Tom:
When we set out to build TrustBooks, our focus, and it tends to be our focus, is really the small law firm. It’s the firm that doesn’t have a lot of the extra resources to go hire or have in-house an accounting team. Maybe they’re trying to do it themselves. They’re trying to get some of their legal staff to do it. And again, it kind of gets into that mindset of, they don’t want to do accounting. They hate accounting. But yet, they’re running a small law firm, so they’ve got to do it.
Within that kind of frame, we are really good with personal injury attorneys, with criminal defense attorneys, family law attorneys, immigration attorneys. It’s kind of all those law practices that skew typically towards the smaller practice. And we fit really well. Personal injury attorneys are a great fit for us. They’re even in a different class of… They don’t even like to do billable time, right? So they get away from trying to do any sort of billable time.
The admin side, the accounting side is really outside of their wheelhouse typically, but yet they use their trust account. They use their trust account pretty often. Anytime a settlement comes in the door, that settlement is going to go right into the trust account. They’ve got to account for it. They’ve got to disperse against it. It’s definitely a need area. From my experience, the personal injury attorneys are the ones that probably hate accounting the most.
Lindsey:
Yes. From what I have heard, I would definitely agree. One of the other pain points that I’ve heard from some of the attorneys that we’ve worked with is just the complexity and needless pieces and functionality of other types of accounting software that doesn’t necessarily apply to them. And it just makes the user experience while they’re trying to navigate the accounting process all that much more challenging. Talk to me a little bit about your user interface, your user experience.
How is that built to simplify the process if somebody going to be immediately intimidated when they open up the platform?
Tom:
Yeah. That’s one of the advantages we’ve got by focusing a product that’s built 100% for legal, and we make no qualms about it. We are built for legal. If somebody in another industry wants to use us, that’s fine. That’s great. But our focus is all on the legal, the law firm, the small law firm. By doing that, it allows us to build the same workflow that an attorney is used to seeing in their practice. It allows us to use the same terminology that they’re used to seeing in their practice.
Other accounting software will talk in terms of let’s just say customers and employees. It’s all this stuff that’s not focused on accounting or trust accounting. For us, we want to say, “All right, you’re used to a client come in the door. We’re going to talk in terms of clients and matters. That’s how you set it up.” Money goes into a bank account. It’s a deposit. Money leaves a bank account. It’s a payment. It’s not trying to get into accounting terminology like debits and credits and journal entries and chart of accounts.
It’s like, nope, we take all that out of the equation. You don’t need it. We’re going to talk in terms of clients and matters. We’re going to talk in terms of deposits, and we’re going to talk in terms of payments. And everybody can kind of get their arms around that. That’s one of the things that just out of the gate we do and it really builds this intuitive workflow. The support tickets we get typically are, how do I get from QuickBooks to a TrustBooks? It’s this onboarding.
And it’s a challenge because this other product is not built to handle a trust account. But after that, it’s smooth sailing. They’re in the product. They just know how to navigate. It’s like pulling out an iPhone. You just know what to do. You don’t need a big instructional manual to tell you how to do it. And that’s been key for us. One of the reasons why is within the trust rules… And again, we’re in almost every state in the United States, in America. We’ve got international users. The neat thing is that each state has their own bar.
They’ve got their own specific trust rules and regulations, but the rules are about the same from state to state to state. We’re able to build TrustBooks to help you accomplish meeting those state bar rules from state to state to state. And with that, you don’t have to go in and… I’ll give North Carolina as an example. There’s over a hundred page trust handbook on the rules around trust accounting.
I mean, overwhelming out of the gate, right? I mean, where do you even start? There’s this hundred page guide on what to do around your trust account. If you’re trying to use something that’s not built for the trust account, you have to first go understand and learn that a hundred page trust handbook. Then you’ve got to go in depth on the software and figure out, all right, I’m using this software. How do I manipulate it to get it to work for trust account that is going to meet this a hundred page trust handbook?
And that’s one of the things that we’ve helped to overcome is just to say, “Look, you don’t have to go learn the hundred page handbook. You do need some fundamentals, but you don’t need to go a hundred page handbook. Leave that up to the experts. And you don’t have to go learn the software and how to manipulate it, how to run reports that it’s not really designed to do to meet certain trust rules. It’s just boom. It’s automatic for you in TrustBooks.” That’s one of the advantages of us kind of being 100% focused on legal, on the trust account.
Reconciliation and Reporting: That makes it sound so simple and helpful. You talked a little bit about reporting. What kind of reporting capability does TrustBooks have?
Yeah. It’s all going to be kind of legal focused. I’ll give you a couple of examples. Big one is the three-way reconciliation. I talked about it earlier. But I think almost every state… Maybe Georgia doesn’t have this as a specific requirement, but every other state has this three-way reconciliation requirement. And to get this in a different product, again, it’s manipulating. It’s trying to pull it in a bunch of different areas. With us, you go through and do a reconciliation, which is straightforward.
You hit reconcile, and boom, you’ll automatically get a three-way reconciliation. There’s literally no extra steps. That’s one of the really neat things that our users love is that with just doing reconciliation, which is a normal kind of month end process, I hit save and I’m going to get the right reports that I need. A couple of others is we’ve got a month end report section. And within that month end report section, we’ve got a handful of predefined reports that get generated at the end of each month.
The mindset there is we wanted this to be that easy button for attorneys to look at. It’s accounting. Again, it goes back to this attorneys hate accounting. If you’re going to force them into trying to figure out what the heck to review at month end, you’ve lost them. This is their place that they can go into the product. At the end of each month, they can kind of go down the list. There’s four reports, plus the reconciliations.
And if I’m an attorney and I’m responsible for my trust account, I can literally just go to this PDF, go to that PDF, go to that PDF. And about 10 minutes, I feel really, really good on what’s going on in my trust account. I’ve got that confidence that, yep, I looked at all I needed to. I’ve got the reconciliations. Boom. Easy peasy. The last set of reports goes into kind of the full legal accounting side. I think we built this a lot with the personal injury attorney in mind, where you can go… We’ve got what’s called a view matter list.
You can go on this view matter list page. You can see all of your clients. You can click on a client. And what’s neat about that view is you can run a trust ledger. You can see right there on the screen a trust ledger, so all activity in and out of the trust bank account for that one client. You can also click over on another tab and see everything that’s gone in and out of your operating account.
For example, like a personal injury attorney that will often do a lot of kind of client cost advances out of their operating account, and they might be paying expert witnesses, they might be paying for medical records requests, all that stuff, you can just go right to this client view. You can look at the trust ledger. You can look at what’s gone in and out of your operating account. And it’s all right there in one really simple and easy to see screen.
Integrating with Clio and LawPay: Lindsey:
What is next on the TrustBooks horizon? You mentioned the operating system that just came out within the past few weeks. What is that looking like? What do you guys have planned for the rest of 2021?
Tom:
We’ve been putting… We’ve been really gearing up to launch this full legal accounting. That was the kind of starting point for us to do a lot of other neat and fun things within the product. We’ve got that launched. That was a huge win. That was kind of the next step. So now, as we look forward to the rest of the 2021, we’re trying to go and just beefing up some of our integrations. We integrate right now with Clio. We integrate with LawPay. We’re going into this next phase of 2021 with improving a lot of the things that we can do around LawPay.
We’re also going to add in some other practice management software integrations. So we want to be that accounting software, that legal accounting software, that can kind of play nicely with a lot of practice management and be that alternative to QuickBooks. That’s really the focus is, how do we add more integrations over this next year? We also want to improve… Right now we do an online bank feed. We already have the ability to connect to your bank, pull in all your bank activity. Again, how do you spend as little time as possible around your accounting.
Everything we do, it’s like, all right, will this save our users more time? We already allow our users to integrate with their bank, pull in their bank information. We want to improve that so that we can build in some memorized transactions, some automatic bank feeds and automatic reconciliations, all with the mindset of how do we let our users spend as little time as possible on accounting, because that’s a win for us. That’s kind of on the horizon and we’re excited.
We’ve got a lot of big plans of just kind of keep improving the product, add more integrations, and make it as seamless and as smooth as possible on the accounting side.
Lindsey:
That sounds absolutely fantastic, the product that is designed to be used as little as possible.
Tom:
Counterintuitive, right? That’s all right.
Lindsey:
But you know what? If it works, it works. That’s great. It sounds like a great 2021 ahead of you. Where can attorneys go to learn more about TrustBooks?
Tom:
Yeah. Our website is a great first step resource. It’s trustbooks.com. Anybody that wants to get ahold of us, just go to trustbooks.com. Our process, we love talking with attorneys and with law firms. We encourage that kind of out of the gate. We do free one-on-one onboardings. So if anybody wants to, go to schedule.trustbooks.com. You can also go to the website and pull up our scheduling link and just schedule whatever time works best for you. But that’s a great way to spend 20, 30 minutes with us. See if we’re a good fit, have some Q and A with us.
Again, the product is simple, so our demo calls don’t need to last an hour. An onboarding process doesn’t take weeks. We can get everybody up and running pretty quickly. We’re happy and would love to spend a little bit of time on the front end having those conversations, especially around the trust account. There is so much anxiety and fear, that having that one-on-one rapport and conversation helps just let you know, hey, this is an easy process. I don’t need to be scared about it.
Lindsey:
Well, thank you so much, Tom. It has been a pleasure chatting with you today. And I know that I have learned a lot about a product that I’m sure will help so many of our clients, as well as many, many legal professionals listening in. Thank you so much for your time, and I hope you have a great day.
Tom:
This was great. Thank you so much for the invitation. I enjoyed it.
In this podcast, Allison C. Shields Johs, Esq, discusses her recent article 2020 Websites & Marketing. The article covers the websites and lawyer marketing portion of the ABA 2020 Legal Technology Survey Report, and some basic things solos and small firm lawyers can do to improve their marketing in 2021 as things become more virtual.
The podcast also covers:
– the American Bar Association’s Law Practice Division, Legal Technology Resource Center and the TechReport 2020
– how to set a marketing budget for your law firm by allocating resources and setting goals
– how can law firms reach clients by investing in their website, creating short videos, using social media and by obtaining referrals
– Allison’s new course and a book she coauthored with Dennis Kennedy: Make LinkedIn Work for You: A Practical Guide for Lawyers and Other Legal Professionals.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Links:
- LinkedIn Essentials online course: https://kennedy-idea-propulsion-laboratory.mn.co/landing/plans/106740
- Make LinkedIn Work for You paperback: https://www.amazon.com/Make-LinkedIn-Work-for-You-Profesionals-paperback/dp/1734076321
- Make LinkedIn Work for You Kindle edition: https://www.amazon.com/Make-LinkedIn-Work-You-Professionals-ebook/dp/B081VLGY8Q/
- Allison’s website: www.LawyerMeltdown.com
- Allison’s blog: www.LegalEaseConsulting.com
- 2020 Websites & Marketing: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/law_practice/publications/techreport/2020/webmarketing/
- ABA TechReport 2020: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/law_practice/publications/techreport/2020/
Transcription: Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover for the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. And today we’ll be talking about the all important 2021 marketing budget. Joining us today is Allison Shields Johs, the president of Legal Ease Consulting, Inc. Allison works with lawyers and law firms to develop strategies, to improve marketing, productivity, and profitability across the board. The American Bar Association recently published her article that provides a valuable in-depth review of 2020 marketing in websites. Thank you for joining us today, Allison.
Allison:
Thanks for having me, Lindsey. I’m excited to be here.
ABA TechReport 2020 – Websites and Marketing: Lindsey:
Well, your article, the 2020 websites and marketing provide several insightful statistics regarding law firm marketing plans and behaviors. Can you talk to us a little bit about what the purpose of the article was, who it was intended for, and where you got your statistics?
Allison:
Sure. So one of the things that I do at the American Bar Association is I am a member of the law practice division, which is actually now newly, I think this year or last year free for any person who is an ABA member. So if you are an ABA member and you’re not a member, I’ll give a little plug for the LP division, definitely check that out because it’s no additional cost as a member and there’s a ton of resources within LP. And one of those is the LTRC, which is the Legal Technology Resource Center. And I am on the LTRC board. And one of the main activities that LTRC is responsible for during the year is conducting this legal technology survey every year, which comes out in a number of different volumes. And what happens is LTRC sends out this survey to a cross section of lawyers in different sized firms all over the country to get information on what they’re using in their firms for legal technology.
And so then after we get all of those results in, we look at the different volumes and we have different people do what we call our tech reports, our articles on some of the pieces of the report that we think would be helpful for a broader section of lawyers to have access to, even if they haven’t actually participated in or purchased the survey results itself. So the survey results is a paid item, but these tech reports we do and we put them out for free, for different people to look at. So my volume that I usually concentrate on is a volume that has to do with websites and marketing. And so all the statistics in my tech report article come from that legal technology survey that we did this year. And this year was kind of odd because as people were taking the survey it was right in the middle of the pandemic. So it’s hard to know if they were speaking to kind of what their firms had done before, as opposed to what they were doing right now. So I think it will be interesting to compare and contrast with next year’s survey.
And a lot of times with the tech report, what we do is, is try to look at some trends that we’re seeing over the past couple of years. So I think it’s really going to be interesting to see what the results are for next year. So it’s really intended for a wide audience. I think this year we didn’t get really a statistically big enough sample of the larger firm lawyers to respond to the survey. So my article mostly covers basically solos to essentially really firms of 50 lawyers or fewer. I mean, we did have some lawyers from bigger firms that responded, but I think for my article, and frankly for my purposes for what I do as consultant, it’s mostly within that anyway, solos up to firms that have about 50 or so attorneys.
And it’s really to try to give them an idea of what else is happening outside of just their firm in the legal space with respect to legal technology. How are lawyers using technology? What are they finding helpful? What platforms are they using? How are they using their websites? All kinds of things, the other volumes go into things like cloud computing and all sorts of other things. But this one focuses specifically on communication website and marketing.
Lindsey:
For this survey that you conducted, what are some of the types of questions that you asked of these law firms?
Allison:
It’s everything from how are they using email or if they’re using email as a marketing tool, what are they using it for? Who’s doing the marketing in their firms? Is it lawyers that are doing it? Is it outside people? Is it internal marketing staff? Do they have a website? What kinds of things are they using their website for? What kinds of information is available on their website? Are they using AdWords or pay per click marketing? Are they using social media as a marketing tool? And if so, which platforms are they using? Who’s using it? How often are they using it? What kinds of things are they posting? Do they have a blog? I mean, it’s all those sorts of questions.
Setting a Marketing Budget: Lindsey:
So what is your take on how important it is to have a marketing budget, as opposed to just winging it or not factoring in marketing into the budget at all?
Allison:
I think not having a budget means that you’re winging not only the budget, but you’re winging your marketing, which, listen, as a consultant, I see a lot and it’s not just solos, it’s law firms who do the same thing. It’s as if they don’t factor marketing in at all. They’re only thinking about other inputs and outputs, but that means that their marketing is going to be kind of haphazard. And I think by doing a budget it forces you to sit down and think about A, what are our goals for the firm for the year, and B, where do we have to allocate resources to reach those goals? And what are the marketing steps that we have to take in order to reach those goals? So it forces you to make choices. And I think sometimes it’s almost more important the things that we decided not to do, then it is the things that we decide to do.
Because there are so many things, we get bombarded with so many messages now, and so many opportunities, so many different things that you could do with respect to marketing, and nobody can do them all. And so you have to sit down and think about who are my clients, where am I going to reach those clients? What are the messages that are important to those clients? And what’s the best way for me to deliver those messages so that the client or potential client is going to get them. But it also forces you, I think, to think not just about the end client, but also about your referral sources. I mean, and we forget about those as kind of target markets, who is it that we need to be in front of
Who’s going to send us most of our business? Is it other lawyers? Is it different kinds of professionals? Is it just friends and family that I get most of my referrals from? And how am I reaching those people? And I think forcing yourself to do a budget, even if the budget is extremely limited, that helps you decide I only have this very limited pot of resources. And I say resources, because to me, budget is not just money. It’s also other resources, the time and the effort that you put in. And especially if you’re talking about smaller firms, solos and smaller firms, their resources are going to be more limited
Speaking to the multitude of options that you have for your marketing plan, what would you consider to be the most important aspects of a balanced marketing plan? What major umbrellas should people be focusing their resources into?
I think that’s a hard question to ask because I think the first thing, you kind of have a backup a little bit and think about really getting to know who you are and who your potential clients are. And I lump referral sources in with that too, to figure out well, what makes the most sense, and where is the best place to reach those clients or potential clients where they are. But I also think it doesn’t make sense to put all of your eggs in one basket. I mean, if you look at the survey from this year, a lot of the lawyers who responded to the survey said that significant portions of marketing were focused on event based marketing. Well, we have a year like 2020, and COVID threw events out the window.
So what’s my backup plan or what am I doing to support those events that I can at least then pivot those other aspects of my marketing to focus on something maybe that we’re doing in place of events. So you don’t want to make it so that all of a sudden the rug is pulled out from under you and you’re starting from scratch, maybe, in the middle of the year or three months in, and suddenly you don’t really have time to focus on pivoting the marketing so much or starting over from scratch because you’re pivoting everything else. You have to pivot your entire practice to be virtual and in the cloud. So I think that the word in your question that is really relevant to me is what’s the balance and the balance of where we’re focusing our time and energy and how I’m using my human resources. Am I going to burn people out if I’m relying too much on one person or on one platform or on one marketing avenue, like events.
Investing in Your Website: Lindsey:
Absolutely. As a result of 2020, I know a lot of people are putting more into the digital basket. Let’s do talk about websites for a little bit. And I know that you looked at some websites, statistics in your article and websites and digital marketing can be an overwhelming conversation for a lot of lawyers. What do you see as the most important aspects on a website particularly to invest in?
Allison:
So I think first of all, having a website, so if you look at the statistics, there are still a significant number of solos or even smaller firms that don’t have a website at all. And I think that that’s really imperative, especially now, it doesn’t have to be the most elaborate complicated website in the world, but you want to have a space on the web that you own. So all of these other things that you’ve mentioned, you know, and that I mentioned earlier, the social media and all of these other things that you might be doing on the web, you want to have them really direct it back to something that you own, because you never know what’s going to happen with these other platforms. So you don’t want to rely on, I’m big on LinkedIn, but you don’t want to rely on putting everything on LinkedIn because who knows, if they’re going to change things and you’re going to lose your content.
So you want to have something you can control, which is your website to send people back to that being said, as far as looking at your website, I would say the first thing to focus on is going to be user experience. If somebody gets to your website and they have trouble finding what they’re looking for, they can’t even tell if you’re a law firm, they can’t find your phone number. They don’t know if you’re a local to them. And I know talking to personal injury lawyers, you’re not going to get a lot of people who are going to travel very far, necessarily to work with a personal injury lawyer. You want to work with somebody who, who the local court system, who is easy for you to get back and forth to, or for them to get back and forth to you. You know, we’re doing things virtually now.
That’s not going to be a hundred percent in the future. People like to be with a personal injury lawyer, who’s in their area. And so if I can tell that when I come to your website, and I can’t find that information easily I’m going off and looking at at the next one right away. So you want to be clean and simple and easy, easy navigation, use words for your navigation that your clients or potential clients are going to understand right away without you having to explain them. So that’s number one. I think that user experience, and part of that I would say is making sure that your website is mobile friendly. Look, everybody’s virtual now, everybody’s not necessarily accessing your website on their desktop or laptop computer. Everybody’s got a little computer that they carry around in their pocket all the time now. Nobody’s, without them.
And people are used to using that for everything from ordering meals to grocery shopping, and even to looking for a lawyer or wanting to contact a lawyer. So you want to make sure that that website user experience on a mobile device is great, which means it needs to be mobile responsive. And then obviously your content. You want to look at from the perspective of the client, put yourself in the client’s shoes, what is the most important thing that the client wants to know? If they’re searching for a personal injury lawyer. And make that content easy to find on your website, explain to them… to me, most frequently asked questions are the easiest to put together for a website in terms of content, but also probably some of the most useful content than you could possibly put on your website.
And it seems second nature too you because you know all the answers, but you also know the same questions that you’re going to get from the client the first time they come in, who’s never had experience with a lawyer. And you also, I think some of that is disabusing them of the notions that they may have gotten from other people who also have never seen a lawyer and don’t know what they’re talking about, or on the flip side who have seen a lawyer, but their issue is completely different. They’re in a completely different jurisdiction. None of what that person said is going to apply. So I think for personal injury lawyers, a lot of times that education component, and explaining things and demonstrating how helpful you’re going to be when they come into your office, whether that’s in-person or virtually, by having that kind of information on your website, goes a long way to sort of convincing a client that you’re the lawyer for them before they ever even pick up the phone or fill out your contact form on your website.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. And especially in the personal injury field, somebody who is approaching a lawyer is probably pretty uncomfortable. They’ve been through a traumatic experience and they need to know that they can at least trust the person who’s supposed to be advocating for them. And in a lot of ways that website is the first introduction. It’s the first face that they’re going to see of this law firm. And it is incredibly important that they feel that they have a connection and that this lawyer that they’re going to be working with not only understands the law, but can also connect with them on a personal and human level.
And so I absolutely agree that having the FAQ’s readily available shows that they understand the types of questions that a potential client could be asking as they approach them. So I think that that’s definitely helpful information. And lawyers are really great at practicing law, especially the lawyers that we work with. They’re fantastic lawyers, they really care about their clients. They care about their communities, but they don’t necessarily have the know-how to tackle a website. At what point should a firm decide to hire a consultant to help them with that piece, as opposed to trying to learn the ins and outs and manage it themselves?
Allison:
I mean, to me, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for most lawyers to try to do the technical aspects of their website themselves, if they’re not already very technically inclined and have experience. I mean, there are plenty of people out there who can relatively inexpensively get you set up on a platform like WordPress, that then you can take over from there to add the content on your own, but you really want to get the initial design done so that it’s professional and that it’s coded properly and get the basic elements in place so that Google is not going to penalize you and make sure that you have all those things set. And then you can worry about the content. I mean, some times content can be outsourced as well, but I mean, if you’re looking to budget and figure out where, where to put your money, the initial setup, I would, I would definitely have outside help.
And then you might want outside help on maintenance to a certain extent that can also be done relatively inexpensively, just to be sure that the site is updated properly and that the mechanics are working correctly. As you go along, if the busier that you get and the more that you can concentrate on actually practicing law and bringing the money in, the more resources that you’re going to be able to devote to letting somebody else do some of it. So where you might come up with content ideas or have a conversation on the phone, I do that with some of my clients where we’ll talk about some issues and I’ll draft for them and then they approve it, but they’re not sitting there doing the writing, or we’ll take pieces of things that they’ve already done.
One of my favorite ways to content for a website or a blog for a law firm is to look at cases. Maybe they’ve done briefs, or maybe they’ve done an explanatory letter to a client. And that can turn into three or four blog posts or three or four pages on their website of explanatory content. So to repurpose what they’re already doing is a great way to be economical because it’s the same information that you’re going to be giving clients over and over, the same kinds of issues that they’re going to encounter. So it’s an easy way to get things going without you having to devote so much of your resources.
Video Marketing: Lindsey:
In your article, you mentioned a couple of other things that people can tap into that haven’t been exploited as much. So one of the things that you talked about was videos and how few lawyers have been using videos. Can you speak a little bit to some of the other opportunities that not everybody has jumped on quite yet?
Allison:
Yeah, so, I mean, I think video is definitely a big one. Look, everybody’s attention span is shorter than ever. And I have seen some lawyers start to use it. I think short videos are probably the best, if you can do a short clip on something that somebody can absorb relatively quickly, and videos on social media get great traction. So if you’re using social media in conjunction with your website, having your own YouTube channel, maybe creating playlists on a YouTube channel for specific aspects, so if you’re a personal injury lawyer, maybe you have a playlist that has to do with slip and fall cases, and a playlist that has to do with automobile accident cases. One of the least used social media by lawyers so far has been Instagram. So if you can think of a creative way to use Instagram, especially if you are looking to target clients who are younger, I was talking to a lawyer recently, he told me there’s nobody under the age of 35, who’s using Facebook anymore.
So if you’re looking for clients under the age of 35, Facebook might not be the best use of your resources. I think LinkedIn is always great for lawyers. So personal injury lawyers, you’re not in a business to business type practice, you’re in a business to consumer type practice. So a lot of lawyers in B to C practices tell me, “Oh, we’re not sure that LinkedIn is a great option for us.” But frankly, you’re probably getting a lot of referrals from other professionals, which means LinkedIn is a good place for you to be. And instead of trying to target your message to the client, the potential client, you’d be targeted to the professional and showing them how you can help their clients or help them. And that’s a great way for you to get visibility and to market yourself too.
Allison Shields Johs & Dennis Kennedy’s New Book on LinkedIn: Lindsey:
Absolutely. And I know that you are a wizard when it comes to LinkedIn. And I believe you have a book as well as a course that are going to be available here all about LinkedIn. Tell us a little bit about that.
Allison:
Yeah. So I have a friend and coauthor who I’ve written a number of books on LinkedIn with, his name is Dennis Kennedy. And our most recent book is called, Make LinkedIn Work For You: A Practical Handbook for Lawyers and Other Legal Professionals. And it’s really kind of a hands-on tool to walk you through how to maximize your LinkedIn presence. It goes through what we call the three building blocks of LinkedIn, which is your profile, your connections, and participation. And it’s really all about strategy based on who you are, what kind of practice you have, where you are in your career, and what you want to get out of LinkedIn. So we try to really show you how to use a strategy instead of just kind of winging it. And then we built an online course, which was just released recently in December of 2020 that was based on the book, and that’s called LinkedIn Essentials.
Online Course: LinkedIn Essentials: Allison:
And that’s an online course. It’s nine video lessons, so you can do it at your own pace. And what I really like about the course is that each lesson also has a worksheet that goes with it. And so the worksheet not only reinforces what we talk about in the video lesson, but it also gives you concrete steps for you to take on your own LinkedIn based on what your goals are. So the worksheet, you fill out the worksheet and then it tells you to go do certain things on LinkedIn. So if you go through the whole course and do all the worksheets, you’ll actually have accomplished something at the end of it, instead of just sitting in watching a course.
Lindsey:
That is super helpful, especially when you’re going through nine lessons. I used to be a teacher. So the whole worksheet concept definitely speaks to my heart. And it gives you a visual reminder to really reinforce the plan that you are taking so that you have intention with your LinkedIn strategy and really any strategy that you’re using. Where can people find your book?
Allison:
So the book is available, you can get it in either paperback or Kindle edition. And actually if you have Kindle Unlimited, you could probably get it for free through Kindle Unlimited on Amazon. And then the course is available, it’s online, I would probably have to send you a link to explain how to get there.
Lindsey:
We can put it in the notes, in the comment section for the podcast. Well, great. Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been incredibly informative and as lawyers look to create their 2021 marketing plan moving forward into a very successful year, I’m hoping that they can use some of this information to really help them be intentional on how they are managing and planning their budgets. So thank you so much for joining us today, and I hope you have a great day.
Michael Morris is an Entrepreneur with an extensive background in sales and print advertising. In this podcast episode, Mike tells us how personal injury law firms used to advertise in Yellow Page style directories.
See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.
Strategies included:
- Some verticals still use Yellow Page advertising
- Targeting specific areas, localization
- Full page ads, the front page and magnets
- Renaming a law firm or business to appear first alphabetically
- Understanding your target audience
- Call tracking
- Subdirectories and books sent to specific geographic locations
- How puppies and clean shirts helped advertisers
Mike notes that personal injury attorneys could focus on their target audience and could focus on that audience’s key buying factors. For example, a law firm could focus on a cultural connection such as catering to Spanish speaking clients with a multilingual staff and advertising that both online and offline. Additionally, Mike points out that some potential clients are going to prefer an attorney who is local to them as not all clients will want to travel to meet them.
Transcript: Lindsey:
Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. Before the days of Google, companies relied on phone books for advertising. If somebody wanted a locksmith, they would turn to the yellow book, and the first name to pop up was AAA Locksmith. Business advertisement strategies have developed over the years but it’s important to look at where we came from and see what lessons and techniques are relevant today.
Lindsey:
Michael Morris is joining us today. His years of experience in the sales and advertising world with a chunk of time spent mastery phone book ads. Michael, thank you so much for joining us today.
Mike:
Well, thank you. It’s great to be here.
Lindsey:
So tell me a little bit about yourself. You’ve had several jobs in sales over the years. What have you sold and how have you sold it?
Mike:
Well, you’re right. I’ve sold over the evolution of print advertising that morphed into the digital advertising. So I’ve done yellow page ad sales and for quite a while, that was very, very interesting, just learning all of the different aspects there. And I’ve sold just about every other form of advertising except for television. I’ve sold radio, I’ve sold SMS texting, print advertising, direct mail, all types of all different kinds of campaigns. It’s all geared on getting to the target audience which is really what all advertising online and offline is designed to do and to produce a return on investment for the customers that I work with.
Yellow Page Ads in North Carolina: Lindsey:
So what is your phone book advertising experience? How long were you doing that? How did that work for you?
Mike:
Yeah, I sold for several years. Yellow page advertising was a powerful, powerful multi-billion dollar industry and it’s still a multimillion dollar industry today. So I sold here in the Raleigh Durham area to small, medium-sized businesses, law firms, accountants, all types of verticals. And one of the most interesting things we’re seeing, that everyone had a need for more clients.
Lindsey:
Who doesn’t?
Mike:
And if they were so successful at more clients then what they would love is the ad for a tax write-off. So they were looking for advertising for one reason or the other. So I sold here in in the triangle area to hundreds and hundreds of businesses. And every kind of ad you can imagine, magnetic ads that sit on the front of the phone book to what we call the double truck where you open both pages and there’s full color on both sides. And there’s different ways that companies could be highlighted in the yellow pages directory even before they got to the AAA actual directory under the heading.
So we wanted to get them on the cover, so there were lots of different ways we could. We could highlight people, try to get them their name and recognition and the key thing about the power of yellow page ads is that at that time, the distribution was extremely effective, and the penetration was huge because literally you got a yellow page directory on your doorstep, no matter what household you were in. If you were in an apartment, you got them down in a lobby, everyone got one, every unit. And so in a way it was like everyone had to be on Google or at least had the access to be on Google. It was interesting, I started, you get a kick out of this. I started to generate more business for the yellow page industry. I went to the yellow pages and there’s this group called BNI, Business Network International. And so I started a chapter. And I wanted a business attorney because we had no one as a business attorney in our group.
I had one in Boston when I was up there. I said, “It’d be great to have a business attorney,” and so I went to the attorney section, under the A, and I went through page, and page, and page of personal injury, personal injury, personal injury, personal injury. And so that’s when it dawned on me, I was like, that’s the difference between growing up in a state like Massachusetts where there’s tons of regulations on companies. And so as a result, you don’t have the volume of personnel on the job injuries that you have in right-to-work areas. And that was the first awakening I had, intellectually, that the job market and the opportunity for personal injury attorneys in this market is huge.
How Much Were Ads in the Yellow Pages for Personal Injury Attorneys? Lindsey:
So you were talking about the different types and styles of advertisements that different companies can have in the yellow pages. Everything from the cover, the magnetic advertisement, to the full-page layout and partial page layouts. What did the typical phone book ad cost?
Mike:
That’s a good question. I would say no less than a hundred dollars a month.
Lindsey:
Wow.
Mike:
That was pretty much just a single line listing.
Lindsey:
And what about the higher end?
Mike:
Up to upwards of 200, $300,000 a year. I would say across the board, people were still getting a return on investment. And pretty much that was the driving point. From my standpoint, I was always an ethical salesperson and so I just always saw myself more as a consultant. As I came into talk with the business owner, “What are your needs, what do you need to make? What kind of return do you need to make this work for you?” And so it really didn’t matter what kind of vertical they were in. What was the competition like? What were their competitors doing? How were they being…? What factors were driving business in that vertical? And so actually the more I knew about a vertical, the more expertise I could advise them to put into the ad placement, and then of course, ultimately a lot of companies had to chose to rename their companies with more toward the beginning of the alphabet to try to dominate.
Attorneys are Now Using SEO: Mike:
The great thing about online advertising is that’s done behind the scenes through search engine optimization now and it can still put yourself in a more prominent position and you will find a business online. And especially now during COVID, that’s really the primary area. People are going to be searching for services online and knowing where they are and how they can access them.
Lindsey:
Sure. It’s definitely a very different marketing strategy when you’re moving online and it’s all content-based as opposed to being the A1 dry cleaner, and different strategies for different eras. And it’s interesting to look at the evolution of how those strategies work. And I know that phone books still exist. I know that I get one every so often on my front porch. So what types of companies are still using phone book ads?
Mike:
Well, a lot of companies still, a lot of the verticals. I would say pretty much every vertical is still using them. Probably the only vertical that would shun it is probably internet advertising. It’s still a viable vertical, I’m totally a believer, but I just think you’ve got to understand the market, understand what you’re trying to accomplish. In some sense, you may get even a higher return on investment because the relative number of advertisers in yellow pages has gone down. So you can get more of a prominent position in a full-page ad for instance for the price of what used to be a quarter page back in the day and so those kinds of opportunities exist, but you have to really understand how your buyer is buying. And that’s the key. And if you don’t track that, it’s really hard to know.
In 2021, Some People Still Use Phone Books: Mike:
In some cases with the yellow page ads, we’d put a tracking phone number on it so that you would actually be able to know how many specific phone calls you got from that ad. And that’s one way to really demonstrate the value. Online, that can be done in landing pages and other ways too but really, really focusing on your return on investment because powerful SEO, it will more than pay for itself, same with powerful and effective print advertising. It’s just a question of what your target audience is doing and what that return on investment price point will look like for you and the analysis at the end of the day.
Lindsey:
Right. And people are obviously still using the yellow book because it still is coming out, and it’s still a very powerful tool for the market that is relying on that.
Localization and Print Advertising: Mike:
Because fundamentally the yellow page directories have all of the key information, business location, the physical location, the phone number of key contact information, the key list of services, those same things are completely germane to online search. So the listings, the local directories are still the core part of every online advertising campaign. So people still need to buy local. They want information locally if they can access especially for certain kinds of services. You can’t go online and ask Amazon to fix your lock, you need a local locksmith, right? So that localization is still the best in the world, at least best in the country here in the United States. It’s definitely still the yellow page directory that has it down to the zip code, they know exactly what street it is, what unit it’s in. It’s one of the aspects of print advertising, you couldn’t miss print, the suite number for instance. So the detail of that is pretty powerful. And as it shifted to online directories, those are still powerful. So there’s still the aspect of the yellow pages down that’s sort of ambidextrous now. They have the print element, but they also have the online local directory element, which in some cases is as if not more effective in a local market when people are searching online for your services.
Lindsey:
Absolutely. Yeah. That hyper-localization is definitely an important key in development marketing component. And I know there are other local directories that… So a friend of mine from another networking group owns a copy of N2 Publishing or owns a branch of N2 Publishing for Abbington Life. And I know that there are magazines out there that they’re not necessarily yellow books but other magazines that specialize in local print ads that are hyper-localization geared towards specific neighborhoods. And if you’re looking at apex or carry on on a small local level, you can target a specific neighborhood because the neighborhood that I live in versus the Prestonwood neighborhood are going to be two different socioeconomic demographics that probably need different services. I’m guessing that on some level can be incorporated into the yellow book strategy as well if you’re able to pinpoint down exactly where your target market is coming from.
Mike:
Yeah. In fact, the that’s another aspect of how, at one point, the trend in yellow pages was to have sub-directories by niche or geographic areas. If you had your general Raleigh Durham or Central North Carolina, then you had an apex subdirectory. So you could cross-sell that same ad and the same content in multiple directories. So yes, the specialization was higher when it was more popular. A lot of that’s consolidated now because it’s just not price-effective and cost-effective and the return isn’t as effective because the usage is in the size it used to be.
How Often Were Phone Books Released? Lindsey:
So how often are they changing out the yellow books? How often does a new copy come out?
Mike:
Well, that’s a good question and it depends on the market. If you’re in a market that does still have the sub-directories, you’re going to see more than one, you’ll see one probably every six months so probably stagger it. So you get the local then you’ll have six months before you think about it and then you get into the general. So, so there’s usually a 12 month commitment period that you’re paying into before you see another ad. So it’s at least a 12 month cycle. They may be selling shorter cycles now, at least while I was there, we always hold in 12 month cycles. And it was on the contract to repeat if you didn’t decline it. So it was constant Auto Debit, and people got very used to that kind of investment in an advertising.
Best Phone Book Ads – Puppies and Clean Shirts?! Lindsey:
So here’s kind of a fun question. What is the best ad that you have ever seen?
Mike:
First of all, let me explain. What makes an ad effective is that it gets people to take action and it calls them to do what you want them to do, right? So you want them to call you. So puppies were always a big hit just in general. They weren’t always the most effective, but they were effective in this market, and it’s not very market-specific. In Texas, we had an ad that literally said, “Our men come with clean shirts.” And so in the course of a day that the plumber would see six new clients a day, three to six, and you imagine the heat of Texas, it was hot, sweaty. So they would actually change their shirts out. And believe it or not, for the housewife who was the typical target audience was, well, a six-figure type domestic engineer who was at home but their husband may have been making millions in this particular community.
Mike:
What mattered to them was that the person who came was presentable, didn’t smell like the last sewer system that they were cleaning out, and to be invited into a seven-figure house to look at Sub-Zero refrigerators and plumbing systems and so forth. What they wanted is someone that they felt like they could go in their house [inaudible 00:14:39], not be dirty. And that ad by far outsold every other gimmicky ad and it was subtle and nobody ever did it, because who knew that the trigger for so many women? But that was what it was. And they felt like the sky was coming in with the always has clean shirt. And it’s also a little bit unusual, right? It’s sort of like the barber who has the clean floor, that’s the one that doesn’t get the business. You sometimes think, “Well, that may not really work.”
Mike:
In the service industry, it works so well. The guys, they made hundreds of thousands of dollars, ultimately millions of dollars from that ad. And no one stepped up to do the same thing so it also created a unique niche and a differentiation factor for the plumbing business and ultimately made us a lot of money.
Takeaways for Personal Injury Attorneys and Digital Marketing: Lindsey:
That sounds so subtle but so powerful. What a great idea. So what takeaways would you have for a personal injury lawyer who is developing their marketing campaign? What lessons could you take away from the phone book industry?
Mike:
Well, I’ll tell you. And like I said, when I came down, I looked and saw the competition. So I think the key is the target audience that you’re trying to reach. So if you’re trying to reach, let’s say construction workers here, right? Massachusetts, everything’s unionized, construction workers were rarely ever get injured. Down here, I remember the first month there were like three people that were, what’s it called, buried alive or something? I was like, “What?” I was reading the news, and this was when newspapers were around too. “Wait. Died? Died in a construction site? Does that happen?” So , where would somebody who’s being injured look for your products and services and what are the key buying factors that they would need? And so if they are in this market, at least the years that I was doing yellow pages, a good amount of the workers were immigrants. And so from that standpoint, having language that has a cultural connection, a cultural empathy, would be able to connect those kinds of Hispanic Americans to potentially pull the trigger for you over their competition.
Niche and Locality are Factors for Potential Clients: Mike:
So having a Spanish component, can be a Spanish receptionist, but also advertising that both online and offline, because that might be the differentiation that you need to set yourself apart. And that would give you a whole demographic. And then the secondary thing we mentioned it earlier is local. I would think a personal injury attorney, it was one of our biggest advertising verticals here in the triangle, the locality. If you’re injured, you don’t want to travel for. You might still take a phone call, but if you’re going to go into an office and be seen, and fill out paperwork, et cetera, you’re going to want it to be local. So the more you can have localized offices present in your target area for the people that are getting and experiencing those injuries, I think the better off you’ll be. So I would emphasize the locality and I would emphasize communication and connection.
Lindsey:
That is fantastic. Those are great points. So thank you so much Michael, it’s been a pleasure having you with us today, and those are some very subtle and powerful takeaways that I’m sure everybody can incorporate into their marketing strategy. So thank you so much, Michael. I hope you all have a great day.