Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Have you ever. Wondered do third-party certifications matter to consumers?

[00:00:05] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that consumers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science. And research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts. will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing.

[00:00:24] If you've wondered about third-party. Certifications. You're not alone. This question has. I also crossed the university of Portland's Sam Holloway's mind. In this week's marketing tip learn about Holloway's qualitative. Research findings. And what they mean for your sustainable wine brand.

[00:00:40] Holloway was interested in learning. How supply chain certifications are perceived by consumers. Impact purchasing decisions. And impact brand loyalty. In interviews and focus group discussions, his participants revealed that they were more likely to trust products bearing. Recognized certifications.

[00:01:00] They viewed certified products as offering a higher value. And they were more willing to pay a premium for certified products. After coding and analyzing participant transcripts Holloway notes, that certifications quote. Enhanced brand loyalty by aligning with consumers ethical values. And beliefs. End quote.

[00:01:20] While, certified products were associated with increased. Brand loyalty. Holloway's participants noted that lack of transparency could lead to skepticism. And diminished trust in brands with. Certifications. But there's an easy solution. transparency and clear communication remedy these issues before they arise.

[00:01:39] Holloway's participants also emphasized stringent standards and third party verification as important factors. That enhanced their trust.

[00:01:48] By sharing your story, you can connect with your guests over shared values. And spread awareness of sustainable wine operations like yours, that work. To protect the people and the planet.

[00:01:58] And if your SIP Certified. You can add the SIP Certified logo to your wine labels for any wine made with at least 85% SIP. Certified fruit, whether that's estate or purchased. Check out the links in the show notes. To get your wine certified today.

[00:02:13] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

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Resources: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Apply for SIP Certified Wine * Join ReSIProcal February 2025 * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Sustainable Story | Print * Sustainable Story | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story?

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Monitoring vine nutrition is critical for pest and water stress resilience and the efficient production of quality grapes. Jenny Garley, Chief Science Officer at NEWAGE Laboratories discusses the differences between SAP analysis and tissue tests. SAP measures real time nutrient availability in vascular tissue. While tissue tests look at the nutrients stored in the leaf; some maybe available but most are not. Learn how SAP analysis can improve your nutrient management program, from reducing nitrogen inputs to managing trace elements for optimal plant nutrition.

Resources: * 115: Examining Plant Nutrient Mobility with SAP Analysis * Grape growers turn to sap sampling to monitor crop * NEWAGE Laboratories – SAP Analysis * The Difference Between Leaf Tissue and Sap Analyses * The Grower’s Guide to Plant Sap Analysis

Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Monitoring grape vine nutrition is critical for pest and water, stress resilliance and the efficient production of quality grapes. Welcome to sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Where we bring. You the latest in science of research for the wine industry.

[00:00:19] I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. Since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices. Experts growers and wine industry tools. Through both. In-field. And online education so that you can grow your business. Please. Raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years.

[00:00:38] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with a long time. Sip certified vineyard and the first ever set certified winery speaks. Speaks with Jenny Garley chief science officer at new age. Laboratories. She discusses the differences between SAP analysis. Alesis and tissue testing. SAP measures real. Time, nutrient availability in the vascular tissue. While. Tissue tests. Look at nutrients stored in the leaf. Some may be available, but most are not. Learn how SAP. Analysis can improve your nutrient management program from reducing nitrogen inputs to managing trace elements for optimal plant. Nutrition.

[00:01:21] Do you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start. Become. I'm a member of the vineyard team. Get access to the latest science-based. Practices experts, growers and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyard team.org. And choose grower or business. Business.

[00:01:43] To join the. Community of sustainable wine growers today now let's listen in

[00:01:47] Craig Macmillan: our guest today is Jenny Garley. She is chief science officer at New Age Laboratories. And today we're going to talk about plant sap analysis and the idea of nitrogen conversion efficiency percentage. Welcome to the podcast, Jenny.

[00:02:09] Jenny Garley: Thank you. Actually, thank you for having me back in your team. It's always lovely to speak with you guys and be a part of this.

[00:02:19] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, we're glad you could come back. This is really great. I've heard about sap analysis in the past, a long time ago, and didn't really know anything about it because I was a dinosaur and when I was farming, I just did what I'd always done, what people told me to do, basically. That is, monitoring the nutritional status of vines is critical, obviously, for making fertilizer decisions, but also for making sure that they're happy and healthy.

[00:02:39] You know, a vine that's in good balance is going to be resilient, going to tolerate different kinds of stresses, as well as basically be efficient. You know, it's going to produce a crop successfully. And with sustainability in mind in particular, our fertilizer decisions need to be directed. Now, traditionally, um, growers have used leaf tissue analysis of leaves and petioles, usually in the spring or at brazen.

[00:03:03] Leaf sap analysis is another way of monitoring plant nutritional status. It's a very, very different way of going about it. What is the difference between the two methods?

[00:03:10] Jenny Garley: I'm really glad you asked, because everybody asks this question, and it's very, very important, actually. Even though people use SAP and tissue sampling interchangeably, they are actually quite different from one another. So SAP measures the nutrient availability of the nutrients flowing in the vascular tissue, which is It's basically the xylem and phloem.

[00:03:34] It provides a real time analysis of the nutrients that are available in the plant. And that is really one of the most important takeaways between sap and tissue, because tissue looks at the nutrients that are in the brick and mortar of the leaf that have gone into the leaf. Formation and development, the total nutrients, both available but mostly unavailable.

[00:04:04] So those are huge differences there. Other differences is that tissue is taken from a singular aged leaf, just one. And then it's placed in a paper bag because that sample needs to be dehydrated. And then it needs to be ground, and then it needs to be ashed, and then it uses strong acid to form that analysis.

[00:04:31] For SAP analysis, they only use linear pressure. No heat, no acid, no dehydration. Sap analysis, you need to sample a new yet fully developed leaf and an older yet functional leaf. And that is two points. And when you measure two points on a vine, that can give you mobility. And that is the second, uh, large difference between sap and tissue, is that one, sap gives you mobility.

[00:05:04] And that it gives you available nutrients. Tissue gives you total nutrients from a singular age leaf. The way the analysis is done, there's heat, there's grinding, there's ash, and there's acid. What you lose in that is you lose, amongst many things, is sugar. No mobility.

[00:05:27] Craig Macmillan: And when you're talking about BRICs, you're talking about carbohydrates that are in the SAP. So there's things that you can learn using SAP analysis that you wouldn't be able to learn using traditional, um, tissue analysis.

[00:05:36] Jenny Garley: We're talking about leaf bricks, which is carbohydrates and soluble nutrients. When we're talking about bricks of the berry, of the grape, that's almost all sugar and quite different than a leaf brick. Thanks for bringing that up.

[00:05:50] Craig Macmillan: So there's advantages then, because of the information that you get. What are the differences in terms of how you might interpret results from one to the other? Where, what I'm getting at is, let's say I've been doing traditional tissue analysis for, you know, ever. And then I go, yeah, the SAP analysis thing sounds pretty cool.

[00:06:08] Am I just starting over? Is there any way I can connect the dots between the past and the present and make predictions about the future?

[00:06:16] Jenny Garley: That's a good question. And we have people trying to do that all the time. Again, tissue is total nutrient analysis available and unavailable. SAP is what is available right now. So. Taking both tests, a lot of people do that, being able to equate them, that is different, they both give you different answers.

[00:06:41] I wouldn't say starting over, I would just say giving more information, giving you another layer, a deeper understanding. Is how I would, I would put that I would just say you can only go so far with tissue and would you like to have a deeper understanding? Would you like to try to cut back on nitrogen?

[00:07:03] Are you thinking that there could potentially be? An excess of nitrogen somewhere in your fertilizer program. SAP analysis can help you with that just as much as it can help you look at hidden hungers and or deficiencies. So if you want to talk about interpretation of SAP, we'll keep with the example of nitrogen since that's, um, the topic a lot.

[00:07:28] Of today, nitrogen is highly flow mobile, and so when you see a physical deficiency on the vine, that means there's in nitrogen, that means there's been a prolonged nitrogen deficiency, and you see that yellowing in the older leaves, which is due to decreased chlorophyll synthesis. SOP analysis, taken early, can help you see those deficiencies in the report long before a physical symptom occurs.

[00:08:01] Gives you time. SOP analysis gives you time. Some time, so the reason why SAP analysis can show you that is because again, we take a new yet fully functional leaf and an old yet viable leaf. So on a SAP report, when there is higher amounts of nitrogen in the new leaf as compared to the older leaf. That means those vines are trying to meet the greater demand in the new leaf.

[00:08:30] They're not being given enough nitrogen, or they're not being able to take it up. So they're having to strip it out of the older leaves to meet that demand. And when that nitrogen moves out of the old leaf to the new leaf, that triggers a deficiency. That you can see on a report many times before that older leaves turn yellow.

[00:08:53] Craig Macmillan: Which reminds me of something is the, what is the best timing to take samples for SAP analysis?

[00:08:59] Jenny Garley: Again, great question. A lot of people like to think of sap, again, like tissue. And so they want to take just one or two samples. But sap is movement. It's flowing. It's nutrient uptake. Therefore, sap analysis is really made To be taken throughout the season and if you want a minimum amount if you're going to graph the nutrients over a season and really trying to Say cut back on nitrogen or say potassium.

[00:09:33] You're going to need to have to graph that three points is the minimal amount of Data that you need to create a graph. So the minimum would be three I really like to say five. You can always cut back When the starting point usually for somebody that has never been involved in self analysis before would be a new leaf only.

[00:09:59] And the reason I say that, you won't be able to see mobility, you will be able to see. cation and anion imbalances. And if you have a field with historical differences, um, than, than your other, than your other vineyards or problem areas, I highly recommend taking that about fifth leaf down on a brand new, in, in the springtime.

[00:10:24] Because if you have a problem that you're trying to look at, Fighting it early is really the only thing that you can do. Waiting all the way until flower many times is, is too late to try to fight a deficiency and especially a toxicity. Really difficult to take the nutrients out of the plant.

[00:10:46] Craig Macmillan: On the other end of the, uh, shoot, shall we say. The last fully functioning leaf, without like a Li Cor device or something like that, how can I pick which one of these older leaves is still really a functional leaf? And by that, do you mean in its full photosynthetic capacity? Because you've got what, it's about what, 40 days?

[00:11:09] Um, is where the peak is? Something like that? Is it, are there visual signs? Is there something textural about it? Is there color about it that I can go, oh, I need to go five leaves up, or? Four leaves up, or whatever.

[00:11:21] Jenny Garley: We provide pictures and protocols for taking a sap analysis, especially for vines. We have a beautiful picture of a vineyard, a vine, and where to take your new and your old leaf. Many times those older leaves are thicker. They're definitely darker in color than the new leaf, but we don't want to have a lot of crunchy edges.

[00:11:45] And the reason I say that is because sap analysis, again, is a liquid, and if you send in leaves or somebody sends in leaves that looks like they've been raked up off the ground, that's essentially going to be a tissue test, not a sap analysis. That would be considered dead weight. We need about 90 to 100 grams per sample.

[00:12:11] And if you. sent in a sample with a whole bunch of yellowing, crunchy leaves. That weight doesn't matter because we won't be able to extract any volume from it. So you'll need to go one to two up. That's why we say oldest yet viable leaf. We like to have some moisture in there. We need to be able to extract, um, a volume of sap from the vascular bundles.

[00:12:40] So in a vineyard on a. Absolutely brand new, very healthy vineyard that the old yet viable leaf could be the oldest leaf, but on an older vineyard, maybe diseased, fighting something, having trouble taking up nutrients, maybe have some root issues, that oldest viable leaf might be the third up from the oldest leaf.

[00:13:07] Because we do need a viable green leaf with moisture in it.

[00:13:15] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm kind of thinking about, um, the directions are good, and you have, uh, some resources to help. I'm also now thinking about, like, just touching, squeezing, breaking some of those older leaves. You can pop them off real easy. There's already an incision started, and you squeeze it, and there's nothing there.

[00:13:29] And then other ones you can take, and they're nice and green, and you can rub them in your hands, and your hands turn green. You know, and you go, okay, that's probably the one that's gonna work. It's easy enough to do. So we're talking about nitrogen, but also you mentioned something else that made me think of something, and that is, what about other nutrients, including like, micronutrients?

[00:13:44] Do those show up in SAP analysis, or is this just for nitrogen?

[00:13:48] Jenny Garley: Absolutely. We have a whole trace element. area on a report. It goes in alphabetical order from aluminum, which is actually toxic. It's a heavy metal. We do provide that analysis for you going all the way down to zinc. The majority of trace elements are semi mobile to non mobile except molybdenum and nickel.

[00:14:15] Those are mobile, but they're in very, very, very, very small quantities. So reading those on a SAP analysis is reading the parts per million. And not necessarily comparing the new to the old.

[00:14:29] Craig Macmillan: So I can use this to make micronutrient decisions. You know, traditionally we take, um, Petio samples around Bloom set and then make decisions for applying some micros a month or so later, which has always been interesting to me because they need the micros earlier than that, but that's always been the way that was like, you just can't, well, okay, let's put it on there and hope for, hope for some, something next year, but that's the way we've always done it, it seems like we're kind of hoping that there'll be something there next year.

[00:14:53] Now, SAP analysis, you had mentioned you can do quite early. So might I be able to do SAP analysis well before Bloom? Like you mentioned, like maybe once I have four leaves and I'm still in the elongation stage, the cluster, and get my readings and be able to make my micro decisions a little earlier.

[00:15:10] Jenny Garley: Absolutely. Absolutely. And what you brought up is taking a traditional tissue test later after flower or even the veraison. You're right. You've missed the whole entire window of applying trace elements. Because trace elements, are so needed for photosynthesis and the plant really, really needs to photosynthesize, especially very early on to create energy for the vine, especially when they're trying to actually create leaves on that vine.

[00:15:41] Trace elements are needed. Trace elements needed for enzymatic Actions and functions in the plant. And they're also basically there to help the macronutrients work better. All of those things need to happen very early on in the, in the plant. So yes, using SAP analysis to see how and if micronutrients are being taken up into the plant early on is vital in my opinion,

[00:16:10] Craig Macmillan: That makes sense. Your lab has an interesting way of reporting Nitrogen because it takes different forms and you will see that in Tissue reports, but you have a whole different way of kind of expressing and interpreting them That's the nitrogen conversion efficiency percentage the nice percentage. I believe that's what you call it Tell us more about that.

[00:16:32] I think I think it's an interesting concept

[00:16:34] Jenny Garley: I have been talking about this for years and was doing the math for individual clients and companies. And I thought, you know, we should just put this on our report. Most people start on their SAP analysis path with nitrogen. There's a lot of interest in that. On a SAP analysis report, the lower the measurable N in nitrate and N in ammonium.

[00:17:04] means that the plant taking up and converting the majority of nitrate and ammonium into amino acids and proteins. If there is high measurable nitrate or ammonium, the plant is having a conversion problem. And when the plant has a conversion problem, Before a grower goes and tries to add more nitrogen, they may want to figure out why their plants are unable to convert the nitrogen that the plants were already being given.

[00:17:37] It's very, very important when sap analysis samples are taken that they are put in a cooler because in tissue, there's heat and grinding, which makes ammonium and nitrate volatilize. Which is why sap samples need to be kept cool in order for our NICE number to be the best it can be, to give the very best data.

[00:18:06] When leaves get warm, you can no longer measure. Nitrate and ammonium. So, keeping those leaves cool and following those protocols, and I know I bring this up during nitrogen conversion, but you really do need to have cool leaves in order to have very, very good nitrate and ammonium numbers so that we can compare it to total N and give good, informative, nice percents.

[00:18:32] Craig Macmillan: If I'm seeing and if I'm understanding this correctly if I have high Ammonium high nitrate that means we were not converting nitrogen into the forms that the plant needs, in terms of proteins, amino acids, things like that. Are there recommendations or practices or things that I might think about doing to influence that?

[00:18:54] Jenny Garley: The first one, if the NICE number, the Nitrogen Conversion Efficiency percent, is low. So, low for grapes would be under 90. Grapes are actually fairly good at converting. If you were to look at corn or another crop, corn is actually very inefficient at converting. So, when we're talking about grapes, The nitrogen conversion efficiency percent really should be around 90 or above.

[00:19:20] If it's not, and you're falling into the 80s, even getting into the 70s, the first thing I would look at is your total N, and is it excessive? If it's excessive, stop right there. Stop sign. Because the plants can only convert so much nitrogen in a 24 hour period, and if the plants are being overfed, that is number one on the list to Stop doing that practice because it's, it's creating poor conversion.

[00:19:49] So that right there costs no more money for fertilizer. Just actually stop putting on nitrogen. And I would take another stop sample, get your report and see if. The new and the old leaves are actually, uh, very close together, very balanced. Because if you have a lot more nitrogen in that older leaf, that could be the problem for your nitrogen conversion right there.

[00:20:14] Step two would be looking at your macronutrients that are involved. That would be sulfur, that would be magnesium. One people forget a lot is phosphorus. Phosphorus creates ATP. If you're putting a lot of nitrate in, your plants actually need more energy to convert nitrate into amino acids and proteins.

[00:20:36] So that's another one to look at. The nitrogen conversion efficiency process actually means water. So looking at your water levels and are the vines getting enough water actually comes into play. One nutrient that people don't talk about a lot is calcium. Calcium is actually the master communicator nutrient, and so if calcium is quite low, the plant is having a hard time communicating for its needs, um, especially for nitrogen conversion.

[00:21:10] And then going into your trace elements. Zinc, manganese, moly, copper, iron, those are all nutrients that are needed for good nitrogen conversion.

[00:21:22] Craig Macmillan: So this would influence maybe my formulations, my choices. Sounds like my timing also might be influenced.

[00:21:30] Jenny Garley: Yeah. Nitrogen conversion is very influential on other nutrient application timings. If you're because of the way some people have very large vineyards and they're not able to spoon feed nitrogen as much as they would want. So understanding what type of nitrogen they're putting out and putting other fertilizer that could help convert is, is huge.

[00:21:55] Craig Macmillan: Which actually touches on another idea of talking about timing. I don't hear people talking about in season fertilization that much. Usually that's an end of season thing, and I think the philosophy is the plant's going to pull that up as it goes dormant, and it's in storage there in the trunk, ready to go for the spring, and then the plant will take it from there.

[00:22:16] Obviously there's a big nitrogen demand during the growing season, SAP analysis would help you identify whether that demand is being met, or whether it is too great, or whatever. So this would be a way of fine tuning your fertilization program, potentially with a little spoon feeding in the middle of the season.

[00:22:34] Does that make sense?

[00:22:36] Jenny Garley: Oh yeah, that makes sense. Again, taking that SAP analysis as early as possible to really see, are you going deficient early on? You really don't want to go deficient early on in the season, especially if The majority of your nitrogen applications are in the ball. And how can you help the conversion if you are getting enough nitrogen but the vines aren't converting it very well.

[00:23:02] So that really looks at dollars at that point. If you want to look at conversion, if you get down to the 70 percent mark, it means every dollar of nitrogen you're putting out, the plants are using 70 cents. So if you would like to make that 80 cents or 90 cents and actually try to pull back on your nitrogen, In order to do that, the plants have to become very, very efficient at the nitrogen they are being given.

[00:23:27] And then people are really starting to be able to cut back on their nitrogen when their efficiency gets very good. And that's when people start pulling back 10 to 15, even 20, 30 percent, when they consistently have nitrogen conversion efficiency in the 90 percent.

[00:23:46] Craig Macmillan: And it sounds like that's, um, influenced by some of these other micronutrients, um, like calcium, for instance, and phosphorus for the production of the ATP. Do you have some examples of clients that you've worked with that have adopted this technique and some of the changes they might have made?

[00:24:02] Jenny Garley: The majority of people that start with SAP want to look at their nitrogen efficiency. They are somewhere in the middle of trying to make a decision on cutting back. And so I highly suggest, if that's where you are or somebody in the industry is looking, to take as many samples as you can for the first season and graph it out.

[00:24:26] And you can see where the vines are taking up the most amount of nitrogen and where they actually start pushing it down to the older leaf. And right when they start pushing it down to the older leaf, that's a trigger for somebody that can make a management decision of, we add nitrogen and the plant is pushing it down to the, Older leaf, first of all, then vines aren't using it anymore.

[00:24:51] Secondly, that's throwing away money because the plant is not using it. It's storing it. If you are going to use that nitrogen when the leaves. fall and try to incorporate that into the soil, great. But if you're going to prune it off, that, those are the decisions that you can make from that, that type of scenario.

[00:25:15] Some folks are looking at, um, using this when they have high nitrates in their irrigation water, which is really problematic. And how to utilize the nitrogen that they already have during irrigation to convert it into amino acids and proteins so it doesn't affect fruit quality. That's another avenue that people have.

[00:25:38] They already have the nitrogen there, they just need to convert it, they just need to utilize it.

[00:25:42] Craig Macmillan: That's interesting. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that way, but that's true. What would be the one thing that you would tell a grape grower regarding this topic, in terms of the benefits of sap analysis or tissue analysis, or around managing your nitrogen and measuring what the conversion rate is?

[00:25:58] What's the one piece of advice or one takeaway you would give a grower?

[00:26:02] Jenny Garley: A lot of grape growers, wine grape growers, I talk to have a lot of vine stress. And if that's the case and you're using sap analysis to try to mitigate that, then you actually do need to look at your aluminum. And very few people do because when high amounts of aluminum are taking up, there is a stress.

[00:26:23] Trying to mitigate that and looking at sap analysis And trying to see when that stress occurs. So, when your aluminum starts to go over one part per million, the vine can be starting into a stress. And sap analysis can see that early. Anything lower than a part per million, I call that background aluminum, because aluminum is in every single soil.

[00:26:47] You're not going to get away from it. It's there naturally. So, When you're starting to see stress, then you need to look at other parameters such as E. C. electrical conductivity. A lot of people don't look at that either, but when elect electrical conductivity gets very high, the roots could actually be burning.

[00:27:06] And that's not really a nutrient source. situation that is a watering situation that is a high salt index fertilizer situation. Those are things that can be seen in a SAP analysis early on and decisions can be made to try to mitigate stress and keep our vines happy and healthy longer.

[00:27:28] Craig Macmillan: That is great advice. I just want to thank you for coming back. This is really great. And thanks for sharing your work, your insights. Our guest today has been Jenny Garley. She is Chief Science Officer at New Age Laboratories. Thanks for being on the podcast. This is really fun.

[00:27:44] Jenny Garley: It was fun. I enjoyed. Thank you. It is. It is.

[00:27:51] Craig Macmillan: That's what we're all about. Oh, and where can people find out more about you? And

[00:27:55] Jenny Garley: on LinkedIn quite a bit. Jenny Garley. Uh, I also have my first article that I wrote in the Progressive Crop Consultant magazine, the January, February issue. And that is the difference between leaf tissue and sap analysis. And then, of course, New Age Laboratories, our website.

[00:28:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by . Guillaume, grapevine nursery. Looking for top tier vines, Guillaume greapvine nursery pioneers in the nursery business since 1895 and serving Northern California since 2006 offers premium selections backed by generations of French expertise, providing the best genetic material for healthier growth and superior fruit to quality. Elevate your wine. With certified plants, you can trust.

[00:28:52] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Jenny Her article this this year and her previous interview on the sustainable wine growing pods. Podcast 115 examining plant nutrient mobility. With SAP analysis. If you like this show, do us a big favor by. By sharing it with a friend. Subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.Org. Until next time, this is sustainable Winegrowing but the vineyard team.

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[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: We. Often talk about sustainability in the vineyard, but that doesn't account for the whole picture. An important theme of sustainable wine production is the ability. To elevate the practices as a whole, from block to bottle.

[00:00:12] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know. That customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer. , form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts. We'll help you share your dedication. to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:30] After months of careful cultivation in the vineyard. The grapes still have a lengthy journey ahead. It's no secret that the. The journey takes place in the winery, but what exactly does it take for

[00:00:40] in this week's marketing tip. She shares four ways. Ways. That you. Can approve the sustainability at your winery.

[00:00:47] Number one is to sanitize smarter. Safe cleaning and sanitation practices are essential in wine-making, . But the financial. And environmental impact of sanitation products can add up and lead. A sustainably minded business to look for better solutions.

[00:01:03] Cambria periodically runs trials and explores. Floors alternative products to see if they can sanitize in a more eco. Eco-friendly way.

[00:01:10] When testing paracidic. , acid. Abbreviated PAA an organic. Peroxide based sanitation, liquid, commonly used in food and beverage industries and health care facilities. Cambria's, his team had two questions. One, could they lower their solutions, concentration and maintain effectiveness. And two could they reuse a batch of the PAA solution more than once.

[00:01:34] To answer the first question, they mixed up a range. Of PAA concentrations and got to sanitizing. When. They used ATP swabs to test the bacteria and yeast on. They're sanitized areas. They found that they could use less of the product. Product to get the same results.

[00:01:50] The answer to their second question was also a yes, they found. And that they could use. Certain PAA concentrations up to three. Times with a hundred percent effectiveness. Samantha says. Says, researching and trying different products can lead to a cost. Cost benefit and possible switch to a more effective, less impactful. Product.

[00:02:10] G Help them reduce. Both product and water while still maintaining a safe sanitation. Practice.

[00:02:17] Tip number two is to recycle your lab. Plus. Plastics plastic is one of the hardest materials to dispose of. In an environmentally responsible way. Wineries know this well, because. Because commonly used lab plastics, can't be recycled in the normal stream.

[00:02:32] Cambria works with Polycarbin, a platform. For recycling and . remanufacturing lab plastics Polycarbin takes used. Scientific plastics and re manufacturers them into more tubes. Pipette boxes and pipette tips. Their system creates. A closed loop, supply chain. That ensures that Cambria's has plastics don't end up in the landfill.

[00:02:56] To make the deal even sweeter, Polycarbin tracking software. sends Cambria, a monthly report on the impact of the recycling practices.

[00:03:05] In March of 2024. They recycled 24 kilograms of plastic reduced 144 kilograms of CO2 emissions and preserved 220 cubic meters of water. And that's only for one month.

[00:03:18] But Cambria doesn't stop at recycling. Their lab supplies. They also work with TerraCycle, a recycling company that collects. And recycles materials that are not generally accepted in the traditional recycle. Recycling system.

[00:03:32] For example. Example TerraCycle sends Cambria boxes for disposable coveralls. safety glasses and ear protection so that they can be sorted. Cleaned and sent it to third party partners to be produced into. Into usable forms.

[00:03:46] Tip. Number three conduct, yearly audits.

[00:03:50] While, responsible waste management is the goal. For any sustainably minded business, Samantha notes, you don't know how to improve if you don't know where you're starting from. Annual waste. Audits help. Cambria . Analyze their waste. And how it's being disposed. Samantha tells us they collect. They're trash and recycling separated out and see if things are being disposed. Of correctly and assess if staff training is needed. Keeping stock. Of the type and quantity of waste and where it's going is key to. Making decisions that have less impact on the environment. In fact. This is exactly how they transitioned to recycling their lab plastics.

[00:04:27] Samantha tells us . While they're lightweight. There's a lot of it. We looked into how we could improve this and ended up finding. The plastics, recycling options.

[00:04:37] And tip number four is to get involved. Jackson family wines. Cambria's has parent company take sustainability. To the next level with their program rooted for good a roadmap. Map to 2030. It's a 10-year sustainability and climate. Action plan that outlines the goals and initiatives designed to. Lead climate solutions. Create a positive social impact. And support the Jackson family's long-term vision for a sustainable. , future.

[00:05:03] Part of. Their plan centers around social responsibility and their employees. Play a significant role through volunteerism. Every employee gets. To paid. Facility. Volunteer days per year. To head out and do good as a group. Plus one to two paid personal. , volunteer days to find other opportunities that align with their values.

[00:05:24] They help their communities by volunteering for local events. Cleaning up trash at beaches and historical sites and much more.

[00:05:31] Their staff have volunteered over 6,000. hours. That's the equivalent of one person working nearly three. Years of 40 hour work weeks.

[00:05:40] With the business behind the team and supporting their. Community. It's no surprise that everyone really enjoys. . Community service days.

[00:05:46] Let us know how you have made your winery more sustainable.

[00:05:50] Listen up sip certified members offer your club members. . The chance to experience yours and other SIP certified brands in February. 2025. ReSIProcal February is an annual month. , long event that offers tasting rooms, the opportunity to increase their traffic. And connect with like-minded wine enthusiasts who value sustainability. . We're enrolling participants now just go to sipcertified.org/join-resip-2025 to. Get signed up. You can also find that link in the show notes.

[00:06:23] Until next time. Time. This is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team.

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NASA has connected data about the Earth’s surface since 1972. One of the first applications was for agriculture. Alyssa Whitcraft, Executive Director of NASA Acres grew up in the wine industry at her family’s property, Whitcraft Winery, located in Santa Barbara California.

Her goal is to make it easier for people and organizations to use satellite data to improve agriculture. Alyssa explains how different types of satellites including polar-orbiting and geostationary collect information that can be calibrated against crop-specific data to develop predictive models. Farmers can use these models to identify viral, fungal, bacterial, water, and nutrient stressors and forecast harvest.

While this technology is being used in commodity crops today, there is a huge opportunity for specialty crops.

Resources: * 129: The Efficient Vineyard Project * 199: NASA Satellites Detect Grapevine Diseases from Space * 233: The Gap Between Space and Farm: Ground Truthing Satellite Data Models * Alyssa Whitcraft * Group on Earth Observations Global Agricultural Monitoring Initiative (GEOGLAM) * NASA Acres * NASA Harvest * Whitcraft Winery

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript [00:00:00]

[00:00:04] Beth Vukmanic: NASA has collected data about the earth surface since 1972, One of the first applications was for agriculture. Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth. Vukmanic executive director. Since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years.

[00:00:39] And today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with Alyssa Woodcraft, executive director of NASA acres. She grew up in the wine industry at her family's property. Whitcraft winery located in Santa Barbara, California.

[00:01:01] Alyssa's goal is to make it easier for people and organizations to use satellite data, to improve ag. Alissa explains how different types of satellites, including polar orbiting and geostationary collect information that can be calibrated against crop specific data to develop predictive models. Farmers can then use these models to identify viral, fungal bacteria, water, and nutrients stressors. And forecast harvest. While, this technology is being used in commodity crops today. There was huge opportunity for specialty crops.

[00:01:35] Alyssa is involved in numerous organizations and projects. So I highly recommend that you visit our show notes. And check out her website.

[00:01:43] If you want access to more viticulture research and technology from the world's top experts, then you won't want to miss the premier Winegrowing event of the year. The sustainable ag expo enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts. Earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. It all takes place November 11th through 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast. Make sure you use discount code podcast 24 at checkout to take $50 off of your ticket. Register

[00:02:19] today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen

[00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team. Our guest today is Alyssa Whitcraft. She is Executive Director of NASA Acres, and we're going to talk about all kinds of exciting stuff that she's involved with, and I'll let her explain those. Thanks for being on the podcast, Alyssa.

[00:02:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Thank you for inviting me.

[00:02:45] Craig Macmillan: You're involved in a whole bunch of different projects and consortiums and programs mostly around remote sensing and agriculture.

[00:02:53] And you're excited about a number of different things in your field. What exactly is your field? I think it's a good place to start because I think a lot of people don't understand what it is.

[00:03:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: I'm a geographer, which is basically the world's oldest discipline. We use the lens of space and place and location to understand the world. And knowing that things that are near to one another tend to have more in common than things that are far from one another. And similarly, we know that where you are in the world matters for all sorts of different things. And that's really the lens through which I see and understand the world. Specifically within geography, because geography is a very broad discipline, my expertise is in using satellite data and other Earth observations to understand what's happening across the world in principally agriculture. I've done work in the past in forestry as well.

[00:03:47] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of things does this field have coming in the future? What are the things that you're most excited about in terms of all the different work that you're doing?

[00:03:55] Alyssa Whitcraft: Would it be helpful if I gave a little bit of history, or is that too much info?

[00:03:59] Craig Macmillan: . Please, please.

[00:04:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: Sure. So a lot of people don't realize that satellite data has been collected of the Earth's surface since 1972. NASA launched its first satellite back then, and one of its first applications was agriculture. It was really for looking at global forecasting, production forecasting, and things like that in areas where We couldn't gather statistics like the USSR, for example. And so that was very early.

[00:04:29] They thought, hey, we really need to understand what's happening with the global food production, global food supply. What kind of prices are we going to be able to get? Those were the very earliest experiments. And a lot of years have passed since then. It's 52 years now. That particular satellite was called Landsat. Well, it's called ERTS 1. It's been, renamed Landsat 1 in hindsight and they've just launched Landsat 9 two years ago. So we've really, we have a lot of series of it now with continuity of data for 52 years from that satellite, that mission alone. there's a huge plethora of other types of data though that are also collected. Landsat, for example, its characteristics are, it passes over the same place every 16 days at about 30 meter resolution. So 100 feet by 100 feet, about a football field, and then there's other satellites that pass over every day and they might have much coarser spatial resolution. So 250 meters by 250 meters, for example. And then there's also recently, because storage is cheap and the Internet is fast, there's a proliferation of these very fine spatial resolution satellites where you can tell almost down to the plant level.

[00:05:38] Definitely tree level, what you're looking at, that's quite fine in resolution and still have some degree of rich spectral information. And what I mean when I say that is basically everything around us is reflecting light all the time or emitting light. And we only see a little tiny piece of it, the visible spectrum.

[00:06:00] That's why it's called the visible. But there's so much richness, on both sides of the visible spectrum. So longer wavelengths and shorter wavelengths, and they tell us all kinds of things about what's going on with a surface. we see vegetation as green because that's what it's reflecting. But there's other things in near infrared that can tell us about vegetation health. Or sort of mid range infrared that can tell us about water stress, things like this. And so now we have more and more spectral information, more and more frequently and finer and finer spatial resolution.

[00:06:35] So our ability to see a great deal of detail has come a really long way. And still just like kind of any instrument you use, your ability to do something useful with it is contingent upon its quality and also the quality of the kind of science that you use to interpret the data and turn it into information.

[00:06:58] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of information is this data being turned into? And on what kinds of or agrosystems?

[00:07:06] Alyssa Whitcraft: All over the world. There's two broad classes of satellites. One is called polar orbiting. So it's going around the poles and it returns to look at the same spot every, you know, it's governed by its orbit and a couple of other things. I said Landsat was 16 days, for example and others can be much more frequently or even longer. So that's one kind, polar orbiting. The other type is geostationary, which means that as the earth turns, it's always looking at the same spot. And that's what most of the sort of weather satellites are. So that's why you can get really like frequently every 15 minutes, like a radar image, for example. all that's to say, like a lot of the satellites we use are polar orbiting, and that means it's not biased toward only collecting data over the United States.

[00:07:48] It's collecting data all over the world. In the past, because. storage was expensive. There wasn't very much storage capacity on the spacecrafts. You couldn't store it all. They used to have to select which images they were going to capture. So it might be passing over a surface, but it wouldn't turn the camera on. And only about, I want to say 2012, 2013 was when Landsat started acquiring almost every single opportunity. And not just capturing something like A third of the daylit scenes that could capture every day. so all that's to say, we now have like so much rich coverage the last 12 or so years with that kind of satellite. So that means like we're getting observations of the earth's surface where everywhere agriculture is grown at least every day, depending on the type of satellite you're talking about. And even for the finer resolution ones, you're getting it every day. 10 days, maybe once you are to 20 days once you account for cloud cover in a lot of areas.

[00:08:44] Craig Macmillan: what kinds of decisions can people make regarding how they farm based on this kind of information? And my understanding is that this is public information, is that correct?

[00:08:53] Alyssa Whitcraft: What I talked about was sort of where you can collect information. It's all over. It's not you know, biased toward any particular region per se. By virtue of that, it's not necessarily biased toward any one crop because it's collecting all those data. So those observations exist, but our ability to turn them into information is contingent upon how much we've studied that, that item. And, and how much what it, the light that it reflects in the satellite picks up on is related to whatever it is that we're trying to study. So that's to say if a satellite only collects visible information, then we're not going to be able to talk about sort of some of the items associated with chlorophyll content and like health of the plant. Or if it doesn't collect the long infrared or mid infrared you're going to miss out on information about water, things like that.

[00:09:41] And that's just kind of a simplified answer to that piece. And so we're able to collect all kinds of variables. In my work, we've called them essential agriculture variables. they're basically core building blocks, variables that we can measure and infer about the earth based on satellite data about the state, what the change has been over time and what the forecast is to the future.

[00:10:02] We can look at, Hey, what kind of crop is being cultivated here right now? We can see how has that changed over the last 10 years? We can look at, okay, this is the current condition. What's the forecast for harvest this year? different things like that. We can also do within season detection of certain stressors, biotic and abiotic stress.

[00:10:22] So you know, can be viral, fungal, bacterial diseases water stress that can help with precision kind of irrigation scheduling. We can also look at you know, when you couple that with like short term weather forecasts, you can see, okay, there's going to be really high demand evaporative demand. And so we need to think about maybe irrigating or doing something in advance to prep the vegetation for that. You can also use it for nutrient applications. So, this is primarily in row crops so not really vineyards per se. But, we can take a look at what the current nutrient status is. Nitrogen, if it's nitrogen deficient, then you are only applying what it needs and not too much. Same goes with pesticides. You're not just doing blanket spraying. You can do early detection and mitigation. With nitrogen, you only apply how much is needed and where it's needed, which has important environmental benefits. It also helps the farmers sort of bottom line, not wasting money. And also in terms of a fertile excess fertilizer being applied and also not leaving money on the farm by not applying enough. It can be really helpful in kind of zeroing in on what intervention needs to be done and what you can prepare for at the end of the season.

[00:11:32] Craig Macmillan: I'm just thinking through this, so you would have to have some crop specific, and maybe even region specific on the ground work in order to make the connection, the correlation between, I'm getting this reading, and then this is what's going on with the plants.

[00:11:47] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yes. Yep. That's completely accurate. And I'm really glad you said it because there is a perspective on satellite data that it's magic, that you just take the image and you have the information. And that's just like not really how it works. Now we're getting more and more sophisticated models out there, but all models have to be trained on something. And just because I've trained it on a ton of corn in Iowa doesn't mean it's going to work on corn in Argentina. Like that's just not necessarily how these things work. some people call it ground truth. I prefer to call it training data, validation data. you know, in situ site data, things like that, comparison data. And the reason for that nuance is just to say that there is error in all measurement. So just because if your scale is calibrated wrong and you say, this is, this was my harvest, this was my yield, then that's not necessarily ground truthed see what I mean? So, and I think that that's an important point to make because we're trying to add an additional piece of measurement to the picture, right?

[00:12:48] It can give you more frequent. more coverage deeper spectral information. It can a lot, but it's a piece, it's a component of a multi source decision support system. We say like garbage in garbage out on the remote sensing side of things. Our observations are very good, but you know, we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars of engineering in the sensors and the satellites to go up into space. So those are incredibly high quality and the space agencies who fly them they do a lot of expensive CalVal, it's called, so they go and they make sure that the instruments like, you know, The analogy in your kitchen would be you stick your thermometer in boiling water to make sure 212 Fahrenheit or 100 degrees Celsius is exactly what your thermometer is picking up, right? So we do the same thing with satellites. that's great for the reflectance or for the wavelengths, but that's not information. So then what we go out, we might take some tissue samples. To understand what's happening with nutrients with pest and disease stuff, some soil samples for that purpose. Or for some of the more like workhorse, what we've been doing with satellite data for a lot longer, those are more novel applications. The lot much longer is what's growing where where it is. What's the season. Like why is it. Kind of just at the early part, is it flowering, reproductive, is it toward harvest and then also yield.

[00:14:09] And so we go out, we take crop cuts, we do things like that, then we calibrate our observations or our models against those data, and then we can run a predictive model that can tell us for the same site in another year, or more commonly you take it from that site and then generalize it. to where you have satellite data that are continuous, like so you have a whole an image, but you don't have any training data from this vineyard over here. So you take the training data from this vineyard and see if you can use it to identify what's happening in other vineyards. And then you assess, how well did I do off of another set of data that's from the ground.

[00:14:46] Craig Macmillan: And so I would imagine that that kind of work is done extensively in agronomic crops, or what we might call staple crops, you know, rice, maize, soy, things like that, wheat. But you can do this with specialty crops as well. You mentioned vineyards. If there is interest and if there is funding, we can do this kind of work and bring vineyards into this this, this kind of process, this kind of science.

[00:15:11] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah. I mean, you're spot on. Like I said earlier, the earliest applications of satellite data. Were in kind of global production forecasting with the reason being that wheat prices, for example, are incredibly correlated with conflict. So as wheat prices go up, you see more human conflict. And so these are the huge drivers of global trends in prices, in food security, all these kinds of things that are really important to track. And so the, you know, the early app applications were really for that type of crop and for very large scale forecasting in the sort of 80s, 90s was when you started to see some of the precision management. So on farm information but perhaps not as much as people hoped for in in this kind of satellite world, there was a lot of unsuccessful startups and, and things like that. I think the big reason for that is like, if you're going out and scouting your 10 acre vineyard, like you can generally walk it. It's not a big deal. You're not driving a combine through. My family's in the wine business and I grew up walking vineyards with my dad and taking tissue samples and taking fruit samples and doing things like, it was just a part of the day, you know, if you're farming 10, 000 acres, that's not viable.

[00:16:30] And so you're, you have, million dollar combine to these days and things like that. That's something with autonomous driving, you can program a great deal of information into it. sort of like historically, there just wasn't necessarily the, like. The demand for what satellite data could offer, you know, it was focused on kind of like yield and nutrients and water.

[00:16:49] There just wasn't the same use case in, in specialty crops. In a lot of ways, especially since some of them are growing greenhouses. So like, we're kind of out of luck with that. And so, yeah, whoops, but that things have just changed. We have better satellites now that collect more information more spectral information, higher spatial resolution, more frequently, we can process so much more data now, which means.

[00:17:14] we can kind of just keep throwing more and more data at a model until it picks up some signal that we never could have anticipated. That's kind of the basis of machine learning or artificial intelligence is that you just keep going like feeding it until you see if something comes out. That also has its own problems.

[00:17:31] Pretty funny fails AI. I think we've seen before the models get overtrained and it's very. clear that they don't work once they're over trained. They, they spit out like a baby with three hands AI image. And you're like, that's not, that's not right. Or I saw a matzah ball on a plate. It was like, rather than like a soup dumpling, it was like a tennis ball that was like matzah colored. I was like, that's not right either. You know, it's funny things like that. So the same thing can happen when we're looking at, you know, the earth's surface as well.

[00:18:00] Craig Macmillan: you are executive director of NASA Acres. That name has come up in a couple of other interviews. Could you explain, , what NASA Acres is and what you folks do?

[00:18:09] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah, sure thing.

[00:18:10] So NASA Acres is NASA's U. S. focused Applied Sciences

[00:18:15] So why, that's kind of a long title, NASA is principally a research agency. Now, it's not it's not USDA where it does farm services or loans or reports on statistics and agriculture. It's famous for people putting a man on the moon and missions to Mars, but NASA has this whole huge earth science division. within that, there's you know, the, the component that's dedicated to launching the satellites and making the data really high quality. And then there's an accessible data, high quality and data accessible. And then there's sort of like the core foundational research, which is. We've never used satellite data to measure this thing before, or we have used satellite data, but now we're just going to apply it elsewhere and do a study that results in a paper.

[00:18:56] So we learn a thing. That's research and analysis in NASA, and then there's applied sciences and earth action, which is, it's kind of new manifestation in NASA, which is like trying to take this data and really make an impact, really get the information, the data, the tools in the hands of people who are addressing, in our case, agricultural challenges.

[00:19:19] So that's farmers, that's ranchers. That's people in the ag value chain that's ag retailers, all the, I mean, there's a whole bunch of people in here who can benefit in some way from this data. And our job is to work with them to advance the science as much as possible because NASA's brand is really like quality, right?

[00:19:39] And then, but also neutrality. And so we kind of just try and lift. the floor, so to speak, make the quality as good as possible, advance the science, and then hope that the private sector that's out there that's serving people in agriculture can sustain the services or, and, and really be adding value to people in agriculture long, long after our projects end.

[00:20:00] Craig Macmillan: And so that, that's going to be where the next link is, is the private sector picking up this information, this data, and then figuring out how they can use it for their client base, maybe for a specific crop or a specific region, and then we can we'll see some development there. we've seen with like material science, I think is a classic example of that, you know the space program resulted in a lot of advances in materials that now we don't even think about. They're part of our everyday life,

[00:20:27] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah, like the blankets run a

[00:20:30] NASA, more than just Tang, you know, when I'm trying to like get across to people that, the planet we study most is Earth to quote Karen St. Germain, who's the Earth Science Division Director for NASA. I mean, material science is a really good example, but we have it so much in all these things that like, be them weather and climate services That's, you know, Noah's job principally to create the kind of forecasting models that are pushed out when we're talking about the United States.

[00:21:02] There's people all over the world doing it and then like weather channel or weather underground or whatever, build services on top of that. And then that's like what faces the consumer. So it's all kind of a part of an important chain. And in fact, NASA is in the background collaborating with Noah on this information as well. for us in the agriculture side of things NASA harvest, which still continues today as NASA's global agriculture applied sciences program. But from 2017, when it started until 2022, it was the whole kit and caboodle. So both us global international, the whole thing. And then they split the programs.

[00:21:39] So into Acres and Harvest. I was the deputy director and program manager for NASA Harvest from when it started until I took over the helm and founded NASA Acres in 2023. NASA Harvest, there's a great example of commercialization or of, of really strong collaboration with the private sector. Which is when the Ukraine war began there was obviously a huge hole in information all of a sudden about what on earth was going to happen with the food that comes out of Ukraine, which between Russia and Ukraine, it's 30 percent of the world's wheat, wheat's very correlated with conflict to begin with. And there's certain partners who are a hundred percent reliant upon imports from Ukraine and or Russia of wheat. , you don't just go drive down the street to the next grocery store and pick up your wheat. Like this is billions, trillions of dollars of movement that can't pivot overnight. So the potential implications were massive. And the more information you have earlier to plan for that, the better. And that's where satellite data came to bear. You couldn't send field agents out when there's an active war happening to be like, what was planted? Is it growing? Are farmers? Applying nutrients.

[00:22:50] Is it going to be harvested? Things like that. NASA Harvest partnered with a number of organizations, but one was a private space company called Planet who collects sub meter and three meter data. daily with they have many, many small satellites and so they're, these are not the three, 400 million satellites that NASA flies.

[00:23:08] These are much less expensive and they can fly way more of them. They're much smaller. They're a very different satellite. But they're great for getting high spatial resolution often. And when you can't go out and collect ground data. to do training on your images. Was this planted? Was this not planted?

[00:23:25] This appears to be this crop. This appears to be this crop. Satellite data of that kind are very helpful. And so then we would use that to train some of the other satellites that have perhaps richer spectral information or other qualities that we might look for in a certain analysis.

[00:23:40] And because we had this partnership with Planet, they were going out and collecting the data. We were able to do this analysis. talk about, you know, what we expected to see in terms of wheat harvest that year and sunflower and corn and rapeseed and all these really critical crops that Ukraine exports and help us prepare and mitigate any potential food security crisis and then Planet.

[00:24:03] On the flip side, they've suddenly made a huge impact with their data. And they've additionally been able to, you know, we do a lot of work on the. nitty gritty of the engineering of radiometric calibration and things like that. We also can support them in improving their imagery. And then now they have a use case in agriculture and all these different kind of things by partnering with us. But we've also advanced the models and the science and the knowledge that's all a public benefit. And so that's like a really lovely investment from the federal government that kind of has this big societal benefit, but then also supports the private sector and continued innovation and services.

[00:24:37] Craig Macmillan: in this case, it allows for the prediction of what may be available right?

[00:24:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah. In that example, for sure. The war broke out in February and the winter wheat harvest would have been, gosh, like may to June. You're looking to see how was the, was this coming back after winter? We're, what was the condition of the crop at a baseline? Were people able to apply nutrients of any kind? And once harvest time came. Were people able to go down in the field to harvest or did they not do it because they had been killed or evacuated or because there's unexploded ordinances in their field and things like this.

[00:25:13] And so that was really the beginning of the analysis and then it, it continued for other crops into the future. And it's a really rich ongoing project about which you can find copious resources online.

[00:25:26] Craig Macmillan: how are we doing on, on those areas? Are there people that are stepping up in the private sector to work on that.

[00:25:31] Alyssa Whitcraft: Definitely. Yeah, there are. The public sector, you know, my side of the house is too. but it's interesting. it's an interesting point because we focus so much on agronomic crops. We've done that because there's a really clear reason to invest public dollars. I think the very early stage collaboration with the private sector for specialty crops is much more critical than it was for these kind of big agronomic crops. So that means from the odd outset. the projects need to have very engaged partners from the private sector. It might be in the form of just working directly with the vineyard so that they can kind of maybe collect some of the ground data or if we're developing a tool, they can kind of like test it and provide feedback, things like that.

[00:26:14] But then there's going to be other circumstances where we might be trying to use a compendium of information. So you might be using some soil sensing to look at water status. But it's like, you can't place a million of them in your field. So, you know, you might take the benefit, the accuracy, the depth that you get from those expensive and ground instruments, and then try to pair them with the satellites and then build like kind of a hybrid measurement system.

[00:26:41] You get the benefit of the update frequency the satellites and the spatial coverage, of course. And then you get like the really good quality. measurements within the field. we've seen a lot of burgeoning partnerships in specialty crops and of course also agronomic commodity crops as well, but where we're trying to look at a hybrid network of in ground sensors or canopy sensors or drones. side canopy robots that my colleague Katie Gold, who was on your, podcast before, she uses these robots, Katie Gold and Yu Jiang, her collaborator at Cornell to, to sort of build toward the long term adoption of, of these, actually not even long term, to build toward the short and medium term adoption of these things, because that's real, it's really going to sustain them, NASA projects. typically three years acres and harvests are each in five year kind of increments harvest was renewed and For its global work and spit off its domestic work. And so hopefully we will be renewed as well But it's not the design of federal research to like provide every service forever We need to work with the people who need the information Because they're gonna tell us what to do and what like what matters to them You and then we need to work with the people who can kind of own the services long term and maintain those high touch relationships with their customers, growers, ag retailers, whomever it might be.

[00:28:04] Craig Macmillan: Spain, places like that Australia?

[00:28:06] Alyssa Whitcraft: You this is an area I'm definitely less comfortable talking about. within NASA Acres, we really only have Katie and you's project that's in specialty crops. And that's principally just by virtue of all the things I described. It's really only been the last four or five years that this stuff has started blossoming. And even within Katie's project. She's not using satellite data really, right now, she's done some demonstration stuff. We're preparing for a NASA instrument to launch in 2028. And we're doing years of preparatory work. NASA has an airborne fleet. People don't know that. And it's collecting very similar data to what will on this satellite SBG. Also, there's a sensor mounted on. The International Space Station called EMIT that also collects similar information. So we're already using that, but we're kind of like priming the pump for primetime, right? So Katie is very, Katie is like a very kind of ahead of the curve kind of situation person. The spectroscopy of the laboratory stuff, we all, we all know that it's been around for a long time, but the imaging capability to do it outside is novel. And so she and Yu are kind of working together on that. I don't have another project in my portfolio that does that right now. We are looking at using those data similarly, the hyperspectral is what it's called, data. We're starting to try and build use cases in rangeland monitoring as well for rotational grazing.

[00:29:33] So looking at forage quality, it's not just a matter of whether the biomass comes back, it's whether it's the right biomass, so the right mixture of different crops. If you've overgrazed an area, you'll just get like the one dominant. type of grass will come back, and that's not very nutrient dense, and it's not very sustainable, it's not very regenerative. If you don't overgraze an area, then things will grow back in a more balanced way, and that's something that we're trying to explore, how well satellites can pick up that heterogeneity in the landscape. That's an example there. I'm aware of some work in sort of olive groves in Spain, in Italy And I know there are some companies who have attempted to do kind of proxy measurements of shade coffee and cocoa. Very high value crops, but you can't see them because they're under the canopy of another tree. And there's been a lot of different experimental ways of trying to get at that. But in terms of my understanding of how successful those different cases have been. It's a little outside my wheelhouse. It's pretty novel. and yeah, I mean, I, the, the thing about being an applied sciences program, we're not the foundational research RNA. So what that means is like, we've got to kind of see the science demonstrated fairly firmly for it to move into a major part of the portfolio.

[00:30:53] That said, like there are some projects in my portfolio that are higher risk or that like, you know, that delivery might be a few years off because of the lack of instrumentation. And there are some stuff that's more experimental, but where those are the case like that Rangeland project or Katie's project That's because we have super engaged users already. So there's ranchers who are at the table for another purpose. Katie is, you know, an extension agent for Cornell working with grape and apple growers, and they want to know how to manage this.

[00:31:23] So she already has engaged parties. So having the satellite stuff be like maybe a little bit more nascent and its development cycle is okay versus, you know, where we don't necessarily have the strongest user. identified and partnered already, we're kind of relying on the more mature applications and starting to kind of transition that stuff out more quickly to broader audiences.

[00:31:45] Craig Macmillan: How can the wine grape industry or other crops, support this and encourage research in their particular area?

[00:31:54] Alyssa Whitcraft: There's legwork on both sides meaning that we need to be with the communities we live and work in. Thank you. to get those people involved in what we have to offer. So it's like there's a trust building component, there's an awareness building component and then there's also just the participate if somebody contacts you about being in a study or, you know, by word of mouth, Oh, this vineyard down the road is doing it.

[00:32:17] Like, maybe we'll do it here. I trust that person's discretion, so I'll do it here. Collaborating and being active in that research from the NASA acres perspective is, is really important. And more than just really from the NASA acres perspective, from really the kind of, you know, we're neutral, we're trying to build quality, we're trying to raise the floor.

[00:32:36] So even if you come, you know, you come through us, we hopefully make things better, which feeds back benefits to you in your, in your operation, but also to your kind of broader industry. So there are some vineyards, for example that I have personal relationships with from my whole life. And when Katie and I started collaborating and, you know, just generally sharing passions for a number of things, including wine and remote sensing, She asked if I had any, you know, friends who would let her take tissue samples who thought they might have particular diseases or were just curious to collaborate so that she could kind of do this proof of concept of these technologies and do these studies. And I was like, yeah, probably. So I just shot a couple of friends text messages and they were all like, sure. And the thing is, is like, they know me, right? And so they know that I'm not going to Never do anything intentional to bring harm. And I certainly would also go work very hard to make sure that even something I hadn't foreseen was protected. And I think that that's actually so critical, probably in every industry, but I'm most comfortable in agriculture. Like these are strong communities of trust that are built up. You know, you knew my dad and when I was 15 he had a major surgery in kind of mid, late August which coincides nicely with harvest, the beginning of harvest.

[00:33:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, the wine grape harvest in california.

[00:33:59] Alyssa Whitcraft: exactly. My dad was a winemaker in in Santa Barbara County, and that's where I grew up And I grew up in the winery so yeah when I was 15 He got he got really sick And he had to have a surgery and he was in the ICU for like a week and after that like it takes a while to recover so people that he had mentored, people who he had been close with for, you know, 20 odd years, 25 years in, in the region just kind of stepped up and processed his fruit, you know?

[00:34:28] So one, you miss one harvest, you're donezo, you know? Like that's just not how things work in the wine business. And my brother, who's now the winemaker, was only 19 at the time. So like, technically he wasn't even old enough to drink wine legally, but like, you know, he was there kind of. Running the ship with, you know, the huge support of these family friends who made it happen. So all that's to say, like those trust networks are everything in, in agriculture and everything in sort of agri food and like I said, probably other industries too, but I just don't know them. That's certainly the case in agriculture. And we're not going to make any like progress unless we build those trust relationships.

[00:35:08] And then since we can't meet everybody face to face, we need you know, those people to then be the hinge points to bring their, their kind of collaborators, colleagues, friends business partners, whatever, to the table to tell us what they need, to tell us what they want, give us feedback on what we've done and then work with us if they see value.

[00:35:27] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm thinking of there are a number of organizations in the United States, in the wine industry, that fund or promote research on particular topics, and I can see there might be an opening there. you know, talking about trust, folks that have gotten awards, farmers that have been collaborators on these projects. I think it's a good place to start. For these new technologies. I think it's an interesting idea. I hadn't really thought about it that way. And I'm definitely going to take, take that away with me when I go to some of, these meetings. , and some of these, , some of these, , review, , committee

[00:35:57] Alyssa Whitcraft: Related to that, so one of the things we're just beginning to kind of explore the logistics of how we would implement it is identifying sort of farmer champions or kind of innovation partners. I don't know exactly what we want to call them, but they're people who are like amenable a collaboration

[00:36:17] , everybody only has so much time. So it takes time to do these things together. So if you have like a real passion or a real interest, it's something you might more willing to do. It helps us do it. the most good the most quickly. , so we're kind of looking at creating this kind of collaborator farmer innovation partner kind of thing where we work, you know, on their farms, they kind of give detailed feedback.

[00:36:38] They serve as different kind of hinge points, , to meet people in their community and really be champions we're doing, but also like not just be our hype guys and hype girls out there, but just be like, Hey, what you're doing makes no sense. Or like your aunt, you know, that's great that you created this capability.

[00:36:55] That gives me a forecast every week. I need it every day. Not useful to me. Things like that. So the frank feedback, , early adopters, but high touch early adopters, people who really are passionate about benefiting their industry and communities.

[00:37:10] Craig Macmillan: the state of the, world right now you've mentioned nations, lots of different crops, lots of, different technologies in your work and also kind of in the future, what's happening now to move all of this forward and where do you see it going?

[00:37:23] Alyssa Whitcraft: not to you know, date myself, somehow I'm one of like, the more se, I don't know senior is the right word, but like I'm no longer the young in this world. And so I've been around long enough that I started remote sensing in remote sensing of agriculture before.

[00:37:39] was really on an upward trajectory. Things have changed the last 15 or 16 years. But when things were really was the food price spikes in 2008 and 2011 that led to huge, push over a billion people into chronic food insecurity. It's horrible. So let's launch this called GeoGLAN Geo Global Monitoring that's going to use satellite data to give us information about, crop production globally.

[00:38:05] Some 40 odd years passed when. NASA first started doing it with Landsat. Within that GeoGLAM initiative, I was program and still in program scientist one of them. And my specific role is I work with the different space agencies in the world on developing new missions for agriculture.

[00:38:20] I basically advocate for the agriculture community to make sure we get the observations we need to do our analyses. what started out is very much this like food security, markets and trade kind of stuff. Segwayed over time, as the field grew, changed, ag tech blossoming, whatever it might be.

[00:38:38] And around 2019 2020 was when my specific focus started turning a little bit more, not stuff, but started zeroing in on the kind of farm level stuff. Because I got really interested in the way my discipline, my methods, my tools increasingly being used in the sort of sustainable ecosystem services marketplace.

[00:39:01] Without there being a whole lot of kind of methods, development, calibration, validation, like, yeah, we can, you know, create a map, but is it any good kind of thing? Or yeah, we can create a model, but does it work? People were coming to us with the NASA harvest name and the NASA kind of name and saying, can you validate this?

[00:39:17] Can you do And we all felt pretty strongly that our role was really to lift. votes for everyone. That's where we zeroed in on that topic wise in the Harvest Sustainable And Regenerative Agriculture Initiative, which we call Harvestera. I'm also the executive director of that. all these tools have advanced.

[00:39:35] The need has advanced. The audience's kind of openness has advanced. The kind of critical need for us to use agriculture as a tool belt to restore ecosystem health, soil health in rich communities and fight climate change, it all kind of needs to start at a baseline of understanding where we are and where we can go.

[00:39:54] And so I see satellite big part of that. This is all kind of coming together now. We still need the public sector's investment in terms of high quality observations. access, the lifting of the science in order for that to really take flight and be reliable and be good. that work that I've done for 12, 14, something like that, 13 years now through GeoGland with the space agencies has recently been morphing, into not just advocating for food security and market applications, but also saying, you guys, we got to think about ecosystem services.

[00:40:25] We have to think about sustainable management. Got to think about the precision. And so the space agencies are now receiving this message that there's a whole new set of value propositions for their data, but also the public sector pushing that direction.

[00:40:39] And then we like kind of push together. Toward impact.

[00:40:42] Craig Macmillan: one message that you would want to tell wine growers regarding this topic?

[00:40:46] Alyssa Whitcraft: Gosh, one message.

[00:40:48] Craig Macmillan: Two?

[00:40:51] Alyssa Whitcraft: Oh man, I guess you know, I think what a lot in my field don't think a lot about is quality Of the crops. We tend to think about quantity. Of the crops. and as a result, we can kind of answer use the wrong, use the wrong approach, answer the wrong question. And for specialty crops and I think, you know, what's finer than fine wine in, in terms of how much finesse you have to have from the 25 plus year old vines through bottling.

[00:41:20] What kind of needs a higher attention to quality I think that. for the grape growing community, particularly for wine and fine wine. they could maybe help shape this and push this, put out the demand there and say like, I don't need you to tell me how to absolutely maximize, make the like juiciest, wateriest, highest volume of berries.

[00:41:40] Like I need to know how to make the best quality. I need to know how to prevent losses related to extreme weather. I need to make sure I don't have my die that, I've been cultivating for so long to build these beautiful old growing and all that, they're more important than maybe they realize they are in this space and could push to really move our science and usership toward quality more than perhaps we have historically.

[00:42:03] Craig Macmillan: and I really appreciate you sharing that. This has all made me think about an interview that I did recently with an extensionist from Texas A& M we were chatting after the interview actually about climate change. She said, there is not a single grower in the state of Texas that is a climate denier.

[00:42:22] Everybody sees it. It is getting hotter. And things are changing and they're going to have to change. There's no doubt about it. And that reminds me of changes in other agro systems. over time whether it's changes in the way the soil fertility is, or changes in rainfall, or changes in disease patterns. I think there's applications, especially in areas that are suffering extreme stresses now, that'll apply to places that'll suffer extreme stresses, maybe a little bit later.

[00:42:49] So I think that's a great message that we can bring to These programs say, Hey, we need. And here's maybe how can we do it? How can we benefit from what you're already doing? I think that's a great message. Where can people find out more about you?

[00:43:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: if you want to find out more about NASA acres, you can go to org. If you want to find out more about the Harvest Sustainable and Regenerative Agriculture Initiative, that would be HarvestSara. org basically any program I've said today, you can just put a org at the end and it'll work. And if you want to learn about my family winery, it's WittcraftWinery. com And just shout out to my dad, my mom, and my brother for kind of sparking and maintaining my love of and interest in food and wine.

[00:43:33] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, And just on a personal note your dad, Chris was a mentor of mine. It was one of the first winemakers That I worked side by side with and had a huge impact on me. Especially around the idea of quality.

[00:43:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Okay, so not to totally digress here, Maybe it's germane to the topic, which is I was pre med at UCLA. And I took a a geography general ed course called people in Earth's ecosystems just to fulfill a gen ed requirement and fell in love. And that professor bonded. and he did a lot of remote sensing of tropical I took his remote sensing class. We were supposed to. pick a and design it. And the picked was trying to. Compare every single metric that we could derive from satellite data for Conti, with, with some vineyards that my dad sourced from at the time so like Bien Nacido. Obeying these different vineyards and trying like in compare, I mean, it was the polar opposite of a robust study. I was like 20 and it was my first remote sensing class, but it really like capped my interest because trying to understand. Obviously there's the climate pieces to some degree, there's the soil pieces, but you know, my dad was the first or one of the first at least to do the blocks designation in wine.

[00:44:45] So he had N block and Q block and Bien Nacido. And I was like, well, what was it? characteristic that made them sort of different? Could you come up with that in a way, not that we should quantify and sanitize everything because there's certainly a je about these things, but like, what is it that creates quality, ?

[00:45:01] , and what of it is sort of biophysical in nature and could be measured and that kind of really sparked the interest that shaped the rest of my career.

[00:45:09] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. I really want to thank you for being on the podcast. Our guest today was Alyssa Whitcraft. She's executive director of NASA acres, fascinating conversation and tying together some pieces from previous podcasts. Yeah, just thanks for being a guest

[00:45:24] Beth Vukmanic: thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by, Baicor. A manufacturer of fertilizers, specializing in liquids for foliar and soil applications. By course, plant nutrients are 100% environmentally friendly and organically based. Each is specifically formulated to provide the optimum level of nutrients, plants need. Baicor's products. Are created from organic and amino acids found naturally in plants and in the soil. They use the finest natural materials. Blended scientifically to assure quality and effectiveness.

[00:46:02] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Alyssa NASA harvest NASA acres plus sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes 199 NASA satellites to detect grapevine diseases from space. And 233, the gap between space and farm ground-truthing satellite data models.

[00:46:21] If you'd like the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. Until next time, this is a sustainable Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

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[00:00:00] As a member of a sustainably minded ag business, you have the potential to shape the way people view our food system.

[00:00:07] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing.

[00:00:27] There is a dramatic difference between how consumers and producers understand sustainability. While, both groups have positive perceptions of sustainable agriculture. The general public has a much more limited understanding of it and even ranked sustainability as one of their top four least understood terms.

[00:00:48] Fostering a shared understanding from farm to table is key to turning sustainability into the norm. With that comes a healthier future for people and the planet. Part of the problem is that farmers themselves often don't have the time. Or the platform to communicate directly with consumers. But an educated and informed hospitality and sales team that's you can bridge the gap. And an easy way to start is by educating your team on what it means to be a sustainably minded business.

[00:01:19] Tolosa winery in the Edna valley of San Luis Obispo, California created a unique way to both teach their team about sustainability and involve them in their efforts. This week's marketing tip tells their story.

[00:01:33] With Tolosa is three PS groups. Employees were given the opportunity to experience sustainability firsthand.

[00:01:40] Each person could join a group that focused on one of the three pillars of sustainability people, planet and prosperity.

[00:01:47] Each of the groups would take their area of focus and work together to find ways to improve the businesses practices.

[00:01:53] First off the people group.

[00:01:55] This group focused on encouraging staff. Engagement safety communication and more. They looked into wage scales to ensure the staff was receiving fair pay And analyzed and improved safety procedures.

[00:02:08] Second up is the planet group.

[00:02:10] This group taught Tolosa's staff, new methods for recycling and composting, both at work and at home. When the company wanted to expand its solar field, the planet group researched soil profiles and growing conditions. On the company's property to identify the area that was least hospitable to vines. So it could be used for the expansion.

[00:02:30] And thirdly, the prosperity group,

[00:02:32] thanks to this group Tolosa, reduce their water by hundreds of thousands of gallons. Member's designed a water nozzle that eliminated the wineries open hose, water use. In fact, the nozzle is so good. It is now mandatory. Josh baker CEO says on average, this one small change resulted in some 380,000 gallons of water savings annually.

[00:02:56] While, participation in the groups is always optional. Employees were enthusiastic to join Josh notes, that the level of staff involvement. Was a bit of a surprise. People chose to take the extra time to be a part of it.

[00:03:09] Listen up SIP certified members offer your club members the chance to experience your and other SIP certified brands in February, 2025. ReSIProcal February is an annual month long event that offers tasting rooms. The opportunity to increase their traffic and connect with like-minded wine enthusiasts who value sustainability. We're enrolling participants now just go to sipcertified.org/join-resip-2025. To get signed up. You can also find that link in the show notes.

[00:03:43] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

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If you are dealing with vine mealybug in your vineyard, you are not alone. Kent Daane, Cooperative Extension Specialist at the University of California Berkley studies different types of mealybug populations across the globe.

Kent covers organic and conventional strategies, ways to increase the presence of generalist and specialist natural predators, and the importance of establishing refugia for beneficials.

His latest work focuses on area-wide management tactics. Looking to the European Grapevine Moth eradication program as an example, Kent sees an opportunity to decrease vine mealybug populations through neighborhood driven monitoring, trapping, coordinated sprays, and mating disruption.

Resources: * 119: Vine Mealybug 101: Species Identification, Lifecycle, and Scouting to Create an IPM Program * 130: The Biological Control of Vine Mealybug Using Mealybug Destroyers and Anagyrus Wasps * Biology and management of mealybugs in vineyards * Ecology and management of grapevine leafroll disease * Impacts of Argentine ants on mealybugs and their natural enemies in California’s coastal vineyards * Insecticides for a mealybug and a carpenter moth on vine trunks, 2023 * In-season drip and foliar insecticides for a mealybug in grapes, 2023 * In-Season Drip and Foliar Insecticides for a Mealybug in Grapes, 2021 * Kent Daane * Mealybug transmission of grapevine leafroll viruses: an analysis of virus–vector specificity * Sustainable Control tools for Vine Mealybug * UCCE Napa Viticulture Extension Leaf Hopper site * Vineyard managers and researchers seek sustainable solutions for mealybugs, a changing pest complex

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript [00:00:00] Craig Macmillan: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team. Our guest today is Kent Daane. He is a Cooperative Extension Specialist with the University of California, Berkeley, and he works primarily out of the Kearney Agricultural Research and Extension Center. And today we're going to talk about a number of topics.

Thanks for being on the podcast, Kent.

[00:00:17] Kent Daane: Craig, thanks. I'm happy to be here.

[00:00:20] Craig Macmillan: Let's dive in on one pest that everybody's interested in, continuing to be interested in, and you may have some new insights or newer insights on this. Let's start with mealybug management. Kind of what's the state of the art in that topic right now?

[00:00:33] Kent Daane: Yeah, that's been the number one question I've been getting for many, many years now. It is an invasive pest. We know it came in, probably being brought in by a grower down in Coachella Valley. It has since spread into the San Joaquin Valley, Central Coast area where you are, Napa Sonoma, and it's been found now in Oregon.

Just like Napa, Oregon has attempted an eradication program. And probably just like Napa, most likely it's not going to work. It's a very, very difficult insect to kill 100%. I mean, I can come up with all kinds of different programs, soft programs, hard programs, expensive programs, inexpensive programs, where I can suppress that insect pest. It's very difficult to remove it from a vineyard. And that becomes important when you think about the kinds of damage we're worried about in Central Coast wine grapes.

Pretty much anywhere where they're looking at grape quality. But especially in the cooler regions. So, this insect, this mealybug, is one of many mealybug species. that is a vector of grape leaf roll associated viruses. And this is the primary reason it grows to such high pest status. So for the most part, the growers can knock its levels down far enough that it's not in the grape clusters or it's rarely found in the grape clusters. That's more of an issue for table grape growers. It's a cosmetic pest. When you look at some of the Regions in the San Joaquin Valley where they're growing a lot of table grapes Kern, Tulare, Kings, Fresno, counties, there's enough heat accumulation and these grapes are harvested early enough in the season that they can still build up their Brix. They can still get a very good grape to market. Even when there's some vinely bug on the vine, they just don't tend to be as impacted by this leaf roll pathogen as our wine grapes.

When you get into regions like San Luis Obispo, Napa, Monterey, Oregon, where they really are trying to hold those grapes on the vine for a longer period of time, trying to build up the bricks levels. That's where this. pathogen causes so much damage.

[00:03:06] Craig Macmillan: most of our growers are already going to be familiar with this, but what kind of damage does the vine mealybug cause? It's so, so terrible.

[00:03:12] Kent Daane: So the vine mealybug, besides being a vector of this pathogen, is also a direct pest of the grapevine. It can feed on the roots, on the trunk, on the leaves, and in the fruit. When this first hit California, we were working on it primarily as a San Joaquin Valley pest. growers that were putting on, you know, the products of the day dimethylate, lanate. If they were missing , the, target window where that pest was exposed, we would see thousands and thousands of mealybugs, not just per vine, but sometimes a thousand millibugs per leaf. It was causing defoliation. It was causing the berries to raisin on the vine. In South Africa, populations were getting so heavy. It was killing the vines themselves.

How many people out there 20, 30 years ago were spraying so many neonics as we're saying today? We weren't doing that. now really, we were spraying for leaf hoppers as our number one pests followed by mites in case there was a flare up. It changed what we were doing in terms of pest management. In fact there's a group of us working internationally. Not just on the vine mealybug, but other mealybug species, because we've seen vine mealybug, grape mealybug, citrus mealybug, all becoming more problematic over the last decade. And we're, asking that question, why? What has gone on? And one of the thoughts we've got, not yet shown, but one idea is that we just sprayed so many of these, these newer chemicals that the mealybugs are developing resistance, The natural enemies are not, and we're seeing an escape of some of these mealybug species in now a, to them, a pesticide lessened environment.

[00:05:10] Craig Macmillan: speaking of biological control, so this is an invasive pest, came from outside the U. S. That's the kinda the classical biological control problem. the pest comes, but its natural enemies don't come with it. there are some natural enemies of vine mealybug in the United States.

[00:05:24] Kent Daane: Yes, they are, and I don't want to go too deep in the weeds on this, but this is new, very exciting to me. I did an importation program, that's a classic biocontrol program, where we go to the pests, origin, we look for natural enemies and we bring those back to the United States. Growers can't do that.

It's got to go into quarantine. We have to study those natural enemies. Sometimes for years to make sure that they're not going to do any harm.

The classic example people think about is I've got a problem with rats. And so I bring in a weasel, the weasel kills all the rats, and then starts going after my chickens.

We don't do that anymore. Classic biocontrol is now much more modern. We've got all kinds of protective barriers against making a mistake. In fact, I think that we've gone a little bit too far. I think we're overly cautious.

Bringing this back to the Vine melaybug, I imported material from Europe, from Israel, from Egypt, and from South Africa. We were finding mostly the same species in most of these different regions. The two most important species at that time were called Anagyrus pseudococci, which is The well known parasitoid that you can purchase from insectaries. The other one is Coxydoxinoides peregrinus, no common name on these insects. Both are established in California.

When I did this work, we noticed a difference between the anagyrus near species Pseudococci that we were getting in Sicily and Spain with the material that we were getting that had already been established from Israel

and what we're finding in northern Italy. Working with a taxonomist, Sergei Trapitsin he found some significant differences between these. And later on after both were imported in the United States determined that these were two species, one still Anagyrus pseudocoxi and one Anagyrus vladimiri. So sometimes you'll see insectaries selling Anagyrus vladimiri and you think, Oh, I want that.

That's different. It is different, but both are established in California. We're actually going to do a followup study. now in collaboration with this international group to find out what we've got in California. I suspect we've got both. Now, why is this exciting? Because at the time we were doing this work, we felt like the parasites were different, and we felt that these different groups that we were importing, maybe one had co evolved with the citrus mealybug, And the other with the vine mealybug. And we had already done some work with the vine mealybug, molecular work, looking at its relationship to each other around the world. and their names are, scientific names would be citrus mealybug, planococcus citri. Vine mealybug, we knew as planococcus ficus, which means, Ficus tree, fig tree. And we were showing that this group was, they had an outlier and ours was the outlier. And then working with this international group, they said, look, back in the fifties, there was a planococcus vitis. And I think what you've got, what we've got on vines, is the vine mealybug. But not in Iran and Iraq at that time.

And, and maybe in that Mediterranean region Israel, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Turkey the Mesopotamian region, I think is what it is. Maybe there are some parasites there that we didn't have. Certainly, my colleague in Egypt and more parasites than we were finding in Europe. We just weren't able to get them all to establish in colony in quarantine. So it opens up the window that, that maybe there's something still out there. At this point in time, I say in all the countries where vine mealybug is reported as a problem, that's most of Europe Mexico, South America South Africa. We have the best of those parasites.

We just want to delve deeper into what are we seeing in Turkey? How does that match up with what we know is in Egypt? And I do have colleagues in Iran. It's just harder for me to go there.

[00:10:09] Craig Macmillan: right, of course. so this makes me think, is it possible that we have mixed populations of these mealybugs in California on the same plant, so it's different areas?

[00:10:17] Kent Daane: So that's the project we're working on with this international group. What we decided to do in a three part approach is to first find out what everyone's got.

The assumption is that in South America, In the United States, North America, we have got single invasion events. Our guess is that it arrived in the U S in Coachella and Mexico at the same time. We're pretty sure that the population they have in Peru is from California Yeah, they were bringing nursery wood in and lo and behold, they found vine mealybug. We went down to look at a nomatode problem to be honest with some UC California researchers. And we found that they had some mite problems at the same mites that we've got in North American California. So they were probably not being very cautious in what they were importing. So we're assuming that South America's got this California group which came from Israel. We know Israel and Egypt have something very similar, but it's different than most of Europe. South Africa is similar to Portugal and Spain, which makes sense with the trade routes that were going on in the 1960s. What we're guessing is that The European groups, there probably are, there's reported failures of vine mealybug mating disruption in some European areas. And we think that probably is this other mealybug that is probably in Turkey. So it's all very exciting to me, kind of delving deeper into the weeds on this. But the first part of this international group, again, a great group of people, Europe, South America our first part is what do we all have? Our second part is what we're doing a grower survey that we actually sent to the vineyard team and they spread out to some growers as well.

What are, what are growers using to control the mealybug? Because maybe with some of the, we find out what it is and maybe growers are working harder to control our vine mealybug than say that the fig millebug which appears to be what they've got in most of Europe.

Remember when I started the foreign exploration when I was in Spain growers would tell me yeah we've got the vine millebug but it really is not much of a pest. Citrus millebug on vines is more of a pest. Well they probably have that fig mealybug but

[00:13:01] Craig Macmillan: Ah,

[00:13:01] Kent Daane: You know, taxonomically, it looked to us like the vine mealybug.And I hope I'm not throwing all these things out and it's confusing.

So, second part, that is, the survey. What do you have and what are you using to control it? And if it matches up that, yeah, what we've got is the one that's more difficult, that fills in a lot of boxes. Third and fourth part are now looking at the natural controls.

What parasites are you getting coming off of this? What parasites are in your region? And how do they respond to the pheromones that we know are out there? So if they're not, if they're responding to both citrus and vine, maybe that's an indication that it's this other group. If they're not responding at all, or weakly, yeah, we've, we've got three or more distinct species. And we can't tell them apart, but maybe the parasites can.

[00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: this is kind of a practical question. hoW do you monitor parasitic wasps? They're tiny. They live in refugia. They then come out and plant their eggs in their host. that seems like a really hard thing to do.

[00:14:10] Kent Daane: That's an absolute fantastic question. So let's look at that most common parasite, Antigyrus Pseudococci slash Vladimiri. So what we found over the years is that it does a great job on mealybugs that are exposed in the fruit, on the leaves, on the cane. By the end of the season, if you're not putting on a lot of contact chemicals, you're getting greater than 40 percent parasitism. Very easy to see,

[00:14:43] Craig Macmillan: Right.

[00:14:43] Kent Daane: doesn't do very well against the mealybugs under the bark, because it's got this searching behavior where it's got to get on top of the mealybug, determine how big it is, do I want to put a an egg that's not fertilized in that, which would be a male, and they need smaller mealybugs for that. Do I want to put an egg which is fertilized? In that, that will become a female parasite that needs larger host.

[00:15:09] Craig Macmillan: the same insect, the same parasite has the ability to do either.

[00:15:13] Kent Daane: Yes.

[00:15:15] Craig Macmillan: Wow.

[00:15:15] Kent Daane: again, this is really a neat subject and I hope I don't bore the audience too much. But, a lot of these parasites that become important for mealybugs they have this little sac, so you've got your oviduct going to your ovarioles, in the female.

And right around the oviduct area, before it splits into the two ovarioles, you've got this little sac called the spermatheca. unlike humans, where the sperm goes in and Seeks out the eggs and fertilizes it. The sperm go in and the female parasite stores them in the spermatheca. And then as the eggs are mature and ready to go down, oviduct and get ready to be oviposited into the mealybug, the female decides to fertilize the egg or not fertilize it.

And if it's fertilized, it becomes a female. If it's not fertilized, it becomes a male. And that allows her to determine what the host size is, because the females are bigger than the males. And so she will walk up and down. and size that mealybug and say that this, this mealybug is a good enough size that this is worthy for me to put a fertilized egg in and that will become a female.

Or a second in store mealybug, she'll say, this really isn't that good of a mealybug host. So I'm going to put An unfertilized egg, and that will become a male. And that was, going back to this Anagyrus Vladimiri versus Pseudococci, that was the most important difference that we found in this Sicilian and Spanish group of Anagyrus, was that they would oviposit and put females in smaller hosts than the male. earlier parasite which probably evolved on the citrus mealybug.

So going back to this question because I do go off on different tangents. How do you sample for these things? So it's really easy to find a mummified mealybug on a leaf. But remember what we're doing. We're spraying now a lot of Movento and we're spraying a lot of the Neonics regardless of its Admire, Platinum, or generic derivative. They're all good materials. and maybe you're putting on an IGR like a plot, again, all good materials, Assail, all good materials. What they tend to do is work really good against the mealy bug, which is exposed on the leaves. Our systemic materials are really good at going out to the leaves. Our contact materials, our IGRs, the neonics, that are contacts kill the mealybug that's exposed. All of these materials do less of a good job with the mealybug underneath the bark.

we're not getting a true indication of what these parasites can do because we're killing the host that's the best location for them to attack. So that means to really find out what's going on, you got to strip bark oftentimes. So now you're looking at parasitism in that region of the vine that the parasite doesn't like to be. Now, if we add to this, this other good parasite, which is the coccidoxoenoides peregrinus, we really liked to bring this in because it attacks the very, very small stages of the mealybug, the first and the second instar. It's sometimes a small third, but really it's focused on the second instar.

[00:19:05] Craig Macmillan: Got it.

[00:19:06] Kent Daane: It's in California. You can find it, but it's really hard to find out what impact it's got because it will parasitize the mealybug and will cause the parasitized mealybug to die. to feel sick and to seek out some area for protection because the anagyrus if you see that mealybug parasitized on the leaf causes that mealybug to kind of glue itself down to the leaf You have to flip that thing to get it off the leaf.

A mummy is a dead mealybug which sticks to the leaf. The coccydox anoides causes the mealybug to find a place of protection because it doesn't stick it to the leaf. So it often times goes to the trunk, or goes to the stem, and eventually falls off the vine, and will pupate down into the ground.

And so to sample for that one, you have to collect them as first or second instars live, bring them back to the insectary, and rear them out to the parasite, which is just really a lot of work hard to do. so these things are far more difficult to do. Sample four, then going out and counting, you know, aphid parasites, which are just out there as little brown mummified aphids.

[00:20:29] Craig Macmillan: it sounds like this would play a role in my timing of my insecticide applications, whether it's Spirotetramat or Neonic or One of the programs that I think is common is to have spirotetramat on top and have a myothiamethoxam soil applied. Does that sound right?

[00:20:47] Kent Daane: Yeah, that sounds right. I mean, they're both good products and they're doing what they're supposed to do. they're killing the mealybug. And when the timing is right, they're getting out there before the mealybug. So as the mealybug is going out towards the leaves. You know, they're probably doing a better job than the parasite will do on its own.

Now, if you are an organic grower and you can't use those materials, then timing does become a little bit more critical because you're putting on, oftentimes, organic materials every 10 to 14 days because they've got a shorter residual. So on those you may want to, you know, work your timing around to avoid to give it a window of opportunity some of these natural enemies. There you're looking on the leaf, you're looking for mummified mealybugs. You know, are, do I have some of these good natural enemies in the field? You're looking for the mealybug destroyer, or one of the other beetles. Green lancelings are also doing a pretty good job. So you're monitoring those. And maybe you're deciding, I've got a lot of good activity maybe I should wait to put on pyganic or one of the other materials, which is broad spectrum give the other parasites a chance, a cycle, to see what their impact's going to be on that millibug population. Or maybe you're going to leave every fifth row unsprayed to let the parasites come back in and then hit that row later. So you've got a chance for those natural enemies to move the just sprayed vines.

[00:22:22] Craig Macmillan: That was going to be my next question is what is the refugee situation for these parasites? Do they come into the vineyard, do their thing and then leave? Do they come in when there is host and then they hang out in the vineyard for the rest of the season? Do we know? I'm just thinking about ways that I can preserve, conserve those parasites as much as possible so that they're there when I need them.

[00:22:45] Kent Daane: That's a great question, Craig. And let's break this apart into two different areas. Let's talk about First, the generalist predators that I just mentioned, the green lacewings, a good mealybug predator against the smaller mealybug stages. A lot of the things we do to enhance natural enemies will enhance generalist predators.

So that's where your cover crops come in. That's where your pollen and nectar come in. You'll increase generalist predators. Ladybird beetles, green lacewings, minute pyre bugs, those can all attack and kill. That same group of cover cropping that brings in the gentleness predator may have little impact on the specialized parasitoids.

Things like the anagyrus and the coccidocsinoides, what they want is the mealybugs. And not all mealybugs will do. They really want the mealybugs that are better hosts for them. So, they tend to get everything they need out of that pest population. They can host feed. They can stick their ovipositor into a mealybug, turn around and feed on some of that exudate, some of what's being bled.

The mealybug creates honeydew. That honeydew, instead of trying to plant a cover crop for honeydew, that honeydew serves as a food to increase the longevity of those parasitoids.

And as the mealybug density goes down, the parasite numbers should go down as well. Now there are different kinds of food sprays that we hope to look at that oftentimes do help increase both generalists and perhaps specialist natural enemies.

[00:24:46] Craig Macmillan: Hm.

[00:24:46] Kent Daane: The number one thing you do to to enhance beneficial insect numbers is to watch the broad spectrum insecticide sprays or to time them where you're not spraying, you know, all 100 acres at the same time, but you're leaving a refugia so they can move back in.

[00:25:08] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. So, I might be looking at something and saying, okay, I am going to have to take some action here. I'm hitting an action threshold but not pull the trigger on the whole thing. leave one area for a little bit, and then can you come back and treat that later, so that you're preserving some of these folks, and then they can come back on the other side, and find a balance between the chemical and the biological.

[00:25:31] Kent Daane: Right. A balance, a delay might just be 10 days, might be 20 days. We don't want to miss our spray window, but remember, Most of the natural enemies are winged as adults, whereas the female mealybug is never winged.

Fairly slow, fairly thestle. So that allows for those beneficials to come back in. And if you're a large grower this just happens over over the course because you can't spray 100 acres in a day.

[00:26:07] Craig Macmillan: Right. Right. Fascinating. Are growers starting to adopt, in your experience with the folks that you work with, are growers starting to adopt these kinds of timings and techniques and methods?

[00:26:19] Kent Daane: I think growers are constantly adopting, improving, changing one of the common misconceptions when I talk to students or people who just don't don't know how to farm or farmers is that farmers really don't want to spray.

Spraying costs money. it is an added expenditure, added time, added worry. So they'd much rather, you know, go back 50 years when we didn't have all these invasive insects from Vine mealybug to Virginia Creeper growers are always seeking out how to improve the insecticide materials they've got, how to reduce the insecticide applications they have to make. And that does include natural enemies, mating disruption. What it comes down to is just costs. So oftentimes there's a trade off.

If you're going to use mating disruption, you may not be doing three applications of an insecticide for vine mealybug. Maybe it's one insecticide plus vine mealybug mating disruption. If you're organic and you're releasing beneficial insects and spraying every other week. Maybe you don't have the cost for mating disruption. So these are all decisions that individual growers have to make. Obviously we've got some growers in some regions can spend 300 per acre for mealybug control. Other growers simply cannot do that because of the value of, their product at the very end.

[00:28:03] Craig Macmillan: Right.

This is kind of a natural lead in to something I wanted to touch on, and that is the Virginia Creeper leafhopper that's found on the North Coast. That also an invasive, correct? Came in from outside.

[00:28:15] Kent Daane: It is invasive to some extent. It is not invasive like the vine mealybug is from. The Mediterranean region Virginia creeper most likely is, is North American. But yes, it was never really a California leafhopper pest. It was, no England, Canada. Pest that then went into Washington, then went into Oregon, that then came into California. interestingly, the, leafhopper that I worked on for so many years the variegated grape leafhopper probably North American, probably had a different avenue, probably came up from the south, from Mexico, Texas, to Arizona, to California. So Some of our invasives are close relatives.

[00:29:07] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. what's the difference in damage that's caused by the Virginia creep leaf hopper and the the variegated leaf hopper.

[00:29:17] Kent Daane: So they're, they're very similar.

I think that the grape leafhopper is the one we've been dealing with for the longest time and has been relatively mild compared to the other two.

The variegated grape leafhopper When it first came into the San Joaquin Valley, it could defoliate vines. It had three to four generations per year.

[00:29:42] Craig Macmillan: Oh, wow.

[00:29:43] Kent Daane: It seemed to be much more damaging than the grape leafhopper.

Virginia creeper leafhopper, now in northern California, making its way south. So it's gotten to the middle of the state. It's in Napa, Sonoma, Sacramento. I have not seen it. Heard it reported in the Fresno area. Oh, it has been reported in Fresno.

But I'm not saying it causes much damage here. We really don't get many leaf hopper reports for damage here, except for organic growers. And that's because all the sprays for vine mealybug.

Most of those vine mealybug sprays are very good against the leaf hoppers. Where I have seen it as a pest. It's been mostly in wine grapes. Mostly in the cooler regions of the state. Mostly controlled by conventional insecticides. There are programs organic materials registered for Virginia creeper that I think have done a fairly good job. But it, it does get out of hand. And I think for all these leaf hoppers with organic materials, what happens is that The organic products tend to not work well , against the leaf operant in the egg stage or the leaf operant in the adult stage.

So timing is very important. You want to get those materials on. when egg hatch is nearly complete and when you've got mostly first and second instars out there. That's because most of our organic products tend to impact these pests by either being a desiccant like the soaps that dry it out or a suffocant like the oils that clog the spiracles. And so the the, adults just fly away from that tractor rig as it's coming down.

The eggs are protected inside the leaf itself, in their little clusters for the Virginia Creeper. And the larger insects can, they're just more mobile. So it's hard to kill them. So timing becomes relatively critical with these insects. I've not worked directly with Virginia creeper other than hosting Houston Wilson did his graduate work in my lab and really focused on, on the parasites of this insect.

Lucia Varela, now retired, did focus on looking at the different insecticides and she's got a nice summary article which is on Monica Cooper's website. It talks about the different insecticides, U C cooperative extension Napa County.

And she's got a website that goes into materials for organic growers for Virginia creeper leaf hopper. I think that's where I saw. that information posted. And what Houston did was he just looked at and tried to improve the Enneagrus. So we get those two confused. The Lilybug parasite is Anagyrus. The Leafhopper parasite is Enneagrus.

The two names sound pretty similar, but one is an inserted family and one is a Mimerit. Or a fairy fly, fairy winged fly. They're some of the smallest insects known. So,

[00:33:03] Craig Macmillan: Wow.

So, we are continuing to look at these new parasites, how they're performing, we're learning a lot more about them, and we're learning a lot more about timing of different kinds of sprays around their life cycle.

[00:33:17] Kent Daane: Yeah, what Houston was trying to do was to understand why parasitism against the Virginia creeper leafhopper was against all the leafhoppers. Why parasitism was relatively low. So I was working with Danny Gonzales and Sergei Tripitsin,

And just mentioning to the taxonomist, Sergei, that it seemed like there were differences amongst these Enneagris samples that we were releasing.

And I had happened to save all of the material that had died. So I sent that to Sergei, and Sergei looked at these things closely and then said, look, we've got a complex of parasites. And he named Enneagris erythronureae. After the species that was most commonly attacking variegated grape leafhopper, which is Erythronere variabilis. There was another one, and he called a Negris tryptocova, which was named after his wife's father's family and he said that was the better looking one of the group. And there was one that just didn't do that much. And he named that after me, a Negris Dana. And so that one we thought was the one attacking the western grape leaf hopper most commonly. And it was being found more commonly in the riparian zone. So that's 20 years ago, fast forward to our new invasive leaf hopper, the Virginia creeper leaf hopper, which is again coming down from Canada to Washington to Oregon to California. Well, it ends up that the Enneagris deni is very important attacking that leaf hopper.

So Houston was working out the relationship of these three parasites against these three leaf hoppers and trying to understand if he could manipulate their numbers to improve biocontrol. He looked at hedgerows, he looked at augmentative releases or inoculative releases, and we're still curious to see if that can't be improved even.

[00:35:30] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. Another topic that I wanted to touch on, because it's a really cool idea, and I think we'll have applications across a lot of things eventually, and that is area wide pest management strategies. And I know that you've done a lot of work in this area from the beginning, really, of kind of the concept.

What is an area wide pest management strategy? Management program. What does it look like? What can it what is its goal? How does it operate? What kind of success we've seen so far?

[00:35:59] Kent Daane: Yeah, that's a fantastic question. It's a topic I'm really excited about and let's think about it when we think about the European grapevine model. that was another invasive insect,

It was found in California, it was found in Chile around the same time. So you've got this invasive insect, and the state of California deemed this important enough to have an eradication program.

[00:36:22] Craig Macmillan: Oh and just real quick. What kind of damage does grapevine moth do?

[00:36:26] Kent Daane: So the European Greenvine Moth it'll feed on the vine, but it gets in the fruit clusters. think of the omnivorous leaf roller One of those, one of our tortricid pests that can really cause damage to the grape a number of generations per year, a lot of different possibilities where it might come from in terms of a host plant material.

So it can be very problematic. It would require a spray every single year, an additional spray for a tortricid pest, if it were to establish.

[00:37:00] Craig Macmillan: one the big issue here is that it attacks the berries directly

[00:37:03] Kent Daane: absolutely.

[00:37:04] Craig Macmillan: Okay. So that's a, that's a serious problem.

[00:37:07] Kent Daane: No, no, the, it, it causes mold and rot and everything else once it gets in there. So, you know, two or three doesn't seem like a lot. You just think, well, berry can go to crush, but that berry will get all kinds of bunch rot.

not a good fruit. So when you think about the eradication program, where there was monitoring everywhere in the state. When you think about the eradication program, where when they found this pest through pheromone traps, and then they did a ground search to find out where it was. And then there was a coordinated investigation. Effort to spray the right materials, to use mating disruption, to go after it in all of the adjoining areas. those eradication programs are very intense. Area wide control programs.

So, let's think about Vine mealybug, which is now in most vineyards. We're still approaching this on an individual grower basis.

We might have one grower using mating disruption, because they're going to go organic, and a next door neighbor doing nothing. There's going to be constant movement of that pest into that grower's. field We might have two growers, one using Movento every other year, and another using Platinum every other year. Those males are going back and forth between those vineyards, sharing whatever genetic resistance that they're developing.

And so really, if those growers are switching, one's using Movento, one's using Platinum that insect is moving between those vineyards all the time. And it's not a resistance management program,

or you might have a small five acre grower deciding to put out mating disruption. Mating disruption works better blanketing the whole area. So an area wide program, and then you bring into it the idea of roguing leaf roll diseased vines.

there are two things I just mentioned in this last 30 seconds that are so important for area wide management of mealybug and leaf roll that are the killers to those programs.

The first is mating disruption still costs more money than a pesticide application. It's a fantastic tool. It is a tool that works better the lower and lower the mealybug density gets.

So you use insecticides to really drop the mealybug population down, but there gets to be a point where the mealybugs are now on the bark. There are little populations here and there, and we know the insecticides are never 100 percent. Mating disruption works better. The lower the milli buck density is.

[00:40:05] Craig Macmillan: Got it.

[00:40:06] Kent Daane: But there's a cost to it. So we start with insecticides. The next part is the rowing of the infected vines.

That's very important on an area wide basis because if you're planting, you've had, vineyard is old, it's not productive, it's had leaf roll. You pull it out, but it's right next to a block that's got 80 percent infected vines. You're always going to have new infections showing up over and over and over again.

Unless that grower next to you is just doing this bang up job of applying insecticides all the time to keep mealybugs from going into your vineyard. you can make area wide control work for the pathogen. and the pest.

But in the best world, let's say you're in control of a thousand acres, pull out every vineyard that's infected and replant and then pull out every new infection in it. And people just can't afford this.

[00:41:06] Craig Macmillan: Right.

[00:41:07] Kent Daane: if you're managing 200, 300 acres and Your vineyard with leaf roll that's at 30 percent is still profitable. it's hard to pull out those 30%.

It's just hard to do. I get it. But something that I wish we could get, you know, government subsidy for to, to have them help us come in, pull out the infected vines, start clean again. But it does work. It's worked in South Africa. It's worked in New Zealand. It's worked in Napa. It just comes at a cost that may be prohibitive in some regions, in some areas. So the best we can do is to manage mealybug and the disease incidence in an area wide manner.

[00:41:52] Craig Macmillan: if I remember correctly, I mean, the work has been done now that, demonstrates roguing is your best strategy overall long term, but it's expensive short term. and that is the issue. That's the tricky bit.

[00:42:06] Kent Daane: There are two tricky bits to it. The first tricky bit is the expense you just talked about. The second tricky bit is that in most of the regions where we know it's worked They have not been dealing, perhaps, with our vine mealybug. They've been dealing with the grape mealybug, long tail mealybug, obscure mealybug. we've got I think the worst mealybug. And maybe that mealybug is just better at surviving on root remnants.

You know, you hear all the time from growers, I r I've been removing 10 percent of my vineyard every single year for five years. And when I looked at The south African data, they removed 20%. Second year, 5%. Third year, 3%. Fourth year, 1%. And after that, it was always 1%.

[00:42:54] Craig Macmillan: last piece of this puzzle in my mind is you have to get your neighbors to cooperate. That's the area wide bit. You have to get people to get on the same page in terms of what they're doing. And it sounds to me like they don't necessarily have to be doing exactly the same thing. They just have to be sensitive to what somebody else wants to do.

Does that sound right?

[00:43:15] Kent Daane: There are areas where it has worked well. It can work in the Central Coast. It can work in Lodi. We may not see, you know, eradication of diseased vines. We may not see a reduction of vine mealybug to a point where we can treat every other year. We might be treating every single year. for this, but we can improve what we're doing through communication right now.

In the central Valley, we're working with a great group of growers where we're just mapping out the vine mealybug and we're sharing with the growers where the melaybug populations are. It's their decision. What? What to use, what to do for control. It's their decision. Can they rogue or not rogue?

But what we're trying to do is to help foster communication amongst the different growers that are neighbors, because we're a third party, which I think helps a little bit. it would be fantastic if we could have someone hired as a scout or PCA, where we work with. PCAs in the region and everyone shares data. We're trying a new computer program this year, which we at the end of the season, we'll launch with our collaborating growers where they can log on in real time. and see what the trap counts are as we count those trap counts. And that will help them make a decision, we hope, on what to do in terms of control measures. But again, the best thing might be that we're opening up communication, just as the Vineyard team is doing through podcasts, through field days, through the website.

[00:44:55] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's hope. And I, and there's a number of other organizations too. the, the group in Lodi has done a fantastic job from what I understand. Fostering communication and sharing information. like you said, I think that's probably one of our, our, our best hopes. Is working collaboratively as an industry and getting communication between the experts like PCAs and the extension community. .

[00:45:15] Kent Daane: And of course, anyone can always reach out to me with questions as well.

[00:45:18] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. And we'll put your information in the show notes. I want to thank you for being on the podcast. fantastic. Very helpful and very, very exciting. I think I was feeling a little more dismal about this whole topic coming into this interview than I am now. I think there's maybe more potential than I was kind of giving credit.

I, you know, I come from a time back in the 90s when Vine Mealybugs showed up in the Central Coast. And it was a lot of gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair, and we did not know what to do, and the damage was insane. I mean, I saw stuff that was just blood curdling, and I think we've come a long way.

We've come a long way, and that's from the efforts of folks like you, so I really appreciate it. I want to thank our guest, Kent Daane. He is a Cooperative Extension Specialist with the University of California, Berkeley. he works primarily out of the Kearney Ag Research Extension Center. And, thanks so much for being on the podcast.

This is great.

[00:46:10] Kent Daane: Thank you very much. Enjoy the harvest time coming up.

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[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: You're tasting room is more than just a place to try your wines. It is also what your guests visualize when they hear your name or senior wine on the shelf. And it's what they tell their friends and family about when they recall their last visit.

[00:00:14] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified, we know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable while our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:32] Does your tasting room offer a memorable experience?

[00:00:36] There are so many ways to make wine tasting special for tasters of any kind. Templeton based Castro Cellars has it down. They're tasting room constantly offers unique opportunities for visitors to learn something new and make memories.

[00:00:51] The first two examples are for the music lovers. Every Sunday from may through October. . We're hosts, lazy locals. These free concerts invite music, lovers and wine enthusiasts to wind down and enjoy an evening of entertainment. While sipping their sustainably produced wines.

[00:01:08] And if one band isn't enough. Guests can make a weekend of it at the Whale Rock Music and Arts Festival. This all ages, summer event welcomes visitors to enjoy live music, local vendors, yoga and beverages galore, including wine, beer, cider, and spirits.

[00:01:25] In addition to providing a unique tasting and entertainment experience, the event has an altruistic purpose. Proceeds from the Fest are donated to the Templeton Instrumental Music Boosters Association. A volunteer organization that is dedicated to enhancing the experiences of Templeton high school musicians.

[00:01:43] The second two activities are for the active

[00:01:46] Wine tasting doesn't just have to be tasting wine.

[00:01:49] Offer an opportunity to get active.

[00:01:52] Castoro Cellars has an all level yoga class led by their in-house Yogi Lauren Udsen. It is the perfect way to start the day after the one hour class, students are invited to enjoy a delicious brunch and sparkling beverages.

[00:02:05] To keep the blood pumping guests can get up close to the vines at the Whale Rock Disc Golf course, this 18 hole course. Is set in their, SIP certified and organically farmed Whale, Rock vineyard.

[00:02:17] And the final two experiences are for the learners. Many vineyards offer tours. They're a great way to show off your vines and educate your guests about your unique history and farming practices. Why not kick it up a notch.

[00:02:30] Vine cycle e-bike vineyard tours offer . Castoro's tourists, the opportunity to learn about their sustainable and organic farming practices while ebiking through the vineyard. After the two hour cycle guests relax, tableside and enjoy wine tasting and fresh lunch from the daily food truck.

[00:02:48] Some people who are new to the world of wine are intimidated by all there is to know. Castoro also offers intimate, informative classes to teach the basics of wine tasting. Students gain an understanding of wines, intricacies and develop the tasting skills. They need to get the most out of their future tasting experiences.

[00:03:07] So let us know, how will you make your next tasting and experience?

[00:03:12] Listen up SIP certified members. Offer your club members, a chance to experience your and other SIP certified brands in February, 2025. ReSIProcal February is the annual month long event that offers tasting rooms. The opportunity to increase their traffic and connect with like-minded brands and wine enthusiasts who value sustainability.

[00:03:33] We're enrolling participants now. Just go to sipcertified.org/join-resip- 2025. To get signed up.

[00:03:44] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

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To celebrate California Wine Month, we're highlighting winners of the California Green Medal Award. Allison Jordan, Executive Director at the California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance shares the sustainable practices unique to each of this year’s winners. From farm hiking trails open to the community to a bio fuel powered fleet, you’ll be inspired by these stories.

Make sure you listen to the end. Our host Craig works at Niner Wine Estates, the 2023 Green Medal Business Award Winner. He has great insights into the benefits of applying for the Green Medal that extend beyond earning the award.

I have enjoyed working with the Green Medal on the steering committee and as a judge. If you are a California vineyard or winery, I encourage you to visit greenmedal.org to apply. Applications open in November of 2024.

Resources: * 206: The Best Newsletter You Can Send | Marketing Tip Monday * 231: Stacking Regenerative Practices to Create a Healthy Vineyard * 2024 Green Medal Award Winners * Allison Jordan * Green Medal Awards

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript [00:00:06] Beth Vukmanic: To celebrate California wine month. We're highlighting winners of the California green metal award.

[00:00:11] Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director at vineyard team. Since 1994, we've brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years.

[00:00:36] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with. Alison Jordan executive director at the California sustainable wine growing Alliance. She shares the sustainable practices, unique to each of this year's green metal winners. From farm hiking trails, open to the community, to a biofuel powered fleet. You'll be inspired by these stories. And make sure you listen to the end.

[00:01:07] Our host Craig works at Niner wine estates winner of the 2023 business award. He has some great insights into the benefits of applying for the green metal that extend beyond earning the achievement.

[00:01:19] I personally have had the pleasure of serving on the green metal steering committee. And as a judge, if you're a California vineyard or winery, I encourage you to visit green metal.org to apply applications open in November of 2024.

[00:01:34] Do you want access to the latest viticulture research and technology from the world's top experts, then you won't want to miss the premiere Winegrowing event of the year, the sustainable ag expo. Enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts, earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. It all takes place November 11th through 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast, take $50 off of your ticket. When you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in.

[00:02:14] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Allison Jordan. She is executive director of a California sustainable wine growing alliance. And today we're going to be talking about the green medal awards. Hey allison, thanks for being on the podcast.

[00:02:30] Allison Jordan: Great to be with you. thanks so much for having me.

[00:02:32] Craig Macmillan: So let's start with some basics. What is the California sustainable wine growing alliance? And in particular, what is it? What are its goals? And what's it doing to achieve those goals?

[00:02:42] Allison Jordan: Well, the California Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance is a partnership that was created by Wine Institute and the California Association of Wine Grape Growers back in 2003 as a nonprofit organization that's all about promoting sustainability from grapes to glass. some of the ways that we do that, especially the whole idea of encouraging adoption of sustainable wine growing practices is also around communicating about it so we can really tell the story about California's leadership in sustainability.

[00:03:14] And we do that through education, through outreach, through certification, and also through partnerships. So for instance, the vineyard team is a great partner of ours and us. Fantastic work. Not only in the central coast, but also throughout the state.

[00:03:31] Craig Macmillan: Thank you. I know that we've really enjoyed and benefited from our work with you. And also around the Green Medal Awards. what exactly are the Green Medal Awards? how did that come about? What was the purpose of creating the awards?

[00:03:45] Allison Jordan: So during Down to Earth Month each April, which is a chance to really highlight California wine community sustainability leadership we also celebrate the California Green Medal. The full name of the awards is the California Green Medal Sustainable Wine Growing Leadership Awards. And it's our way of recognizing industry leaders.

[00:04:06] So those who wineries and vineyards that are really using advanced sustainability practices. They're innovating and they're sharing that information with their peers. It really was a way for all of the different California sustainability programs to come together.

[00:04:21] We're all really about elevating sustainability. And so we came together with not only the Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance, which of course is this partnership with CAWG and with Wine Institute, but also with the Vineyard Team and Lodi Wine Grape Commission. Napa Valley Vintners and Napa Green, and also the Sonoma County Wine Growers, so that we could all be part of celebrating and shining a spotlight on these leaders.

[00:04:46] Craig Macmillan: I think that's one of the really great things about this. And my understanding is that you actually have representatives from different organizations that are part of the review committee for the applications and also part of the cross promotion. Is that right?

[00:04:57] Allison Jordan: That's right. Yeah, so all of those organizations are involved and participate in the judging panel. We also have experts from universities, the wine education field some representatives from retailers and, and some somellier have. Participated in the past. So we try to have that really well rounded group that can be reviewing the applications from wineries and vineyards around the state.

[00:05:20] Craig Macmillan: that's really fantastic that you have expertise from around different fields and different areas. I think that gives it a lot of weight and a lot of legitimacy. So let's get to the purpose of all this. So who are the 2024 green medal award winners and what are some of the sustainable practices that they employed that garnered them this recognition?

[00:05:39] Allison Jordan: Sure. I'll just run down the list. So every year we give four green medals and they are in the categories of leader. So sort of the overall. Embracing sustainability also in the areas of environment, community, and business. And this again helps us really share in lots of different ways what sustainability is all about.

[00:05:58] So for the Leader Award this year, which again is all around that excelling in all three areas of sustainability, being environmentally sound, socially equitable, economically viable. It goes to the Lang Twins family winery and vineyards. They're based in San Joaquin County, just north of Lodi, and have been very involved in sustainability, both in the Lodi region, but statewide for, for many, many years.

[00:06:22] Really, since the inception of our programs. And if you think back further, because it's a generational business they've been embracing sustainability since the early seventies. just some of the examples of things that they've done. They've done a lot around habitat restoration projects. I've actually had the chance to just go in and do a walking tour just a couple of weeks ago, and it's just impressive how they've really repaired that riparian habitat, working with local youth and providing hands on environmental stewardship education for them.

[00:06:53] But they also started off as a family of growers and built a state of the art winery. Just within the last decade or so and they really included a lot of energy efficient design and solar power technology. So just a really great example. thinking back some of the other past winners in the leader category are Treasury Americas, Wente Family Estates, O'Neill, Vintners and Distillers, and J. Lohr Vineyards and Wines. So some really great examples of leaders in our industry.

[00:07:25] The next category would be community. of course, this is all around what vineyards or wineries do to enhance relationships, not only with their employees, but also with the broader community and with their neighbors.

[00:07:39] And this year it goes to Cooper Garrod vineyards at Garrod farms, which is a beautiful vineyard and winery, and also a horse farm in the Santa Cruz mountains. really I've known. Doris and Bill for years, Bill was a former chair of the California Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance, and they just give their whole heart to their community.

[00:08:00] They have done things like pioneering the FireWise Community Initiative. They actively participate in benefits for their schools, for mental health. They participate in the Chambers of Commerce and the industry groups. And also to foundations. they really invite the community in so they can use their farm's hiking trails and participate in winemaker walks and all kinds of really fun ways to learn about sustainability.

[00:08:26] And just thinking back again on some of the past winners in this category, we had Cake Bread Cellars, McManus Family Vineyards, and Smith Family Wines. And there are two more. Do you want me to take a breath or do you want me to keep going?

[00:08:40] Craig Macmillan: no. Keep going. This is great. Yeah.

[00:08:42] Allison Jordan: All right. So the third category is the environment. Something that I think people think of a lot when they think about sustainability.

[00:08:50] there are those vineyards and wineries that are really maximizing environmental benefits. And this year it goes to Gloria Ferrer in the Sonoma region of Carneros. they use regenerative organic farming practice is something we're hearing a lot about. Regenerative is, is the new buzzword in the world of sustainability.

[00:09:06] they're introducing biodiverse cover crops implementing high intensity sheep grazing. They create biochar and really thinking a lot about how do you build healthy soils and minimize your overall environmental impact. They've also established wildlife habitat with things like hedgerows and pollinator friendly areas and nesting sites. So they're really attracting that wildlife into their property and fostering biodiversity.

[00:09:33] And I can think of some really great past winners too. Tobless Creek, Trefethen, Scheid Family Wines, and also Halter Ranch Vineyards.

[00:09:41] So again, some stellar examples of environmental stewardship.

[00:09:45] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Very heady.

[00:09:46] Allison Jordan: yeah, exactly, exactly. And we have the Business Award as the final category. And this is given to the Vineyard or winery that best demonstrates smart business practices. So things like looking for those efficiencies and related cost savings and innovation.

[00:10:05] And this year's winner for that category is Vino Farms. They are a vineyard management company based in Lodi, but they farm all over the state and they've used all kinds of different advanced technology, for instance, for water use efficiency, they've used Tule towers and soil moisture probes and ceres imagery.

[00:10:27] And the idea is to really understand water needs to prevent overwatering and to make sure they have uniform water distribution. And, of course, this can lead to substantial cost savings in addition to saving water. They've also done things like releasing beneficial insects via drones. To reduce the need for pesticide applications.

[00:10:46] And of course, again, the associated costs with that. And then they've also done a lot to embrace renewable energy. So they transitioned all of their trucks and tractors to biofuel since 2010. So going way back They use solar panels in their vineyards to power ranch shops and also water pumps.

[00:11:06] And some of the other examples of this category winners are Niner Wine Estates, Jackson Family Wines and Monterey Pacific. So some really good examples of both vineyards and wineries that have done some amazing work that are really driving that innovation.

[00:11:23] Craig Macmillan: Did you say this is the 10th year? Is that right?

[00:11:25] Allison Jordan: It's right. It's the 10th year. So we've now had close to 40 recipients of the Green Medals. We've had a couple of that have won multiple years Tablas Creek being one of them, Trinchero Family Winery being one. So when you look at the full picture, it's probably around 36 different recipients of the award.

[00:11:43] And if you visit greenmedal. org, you can see all of the current and past winners and some video highlights of the winners. And just, it's a great way to learn really delve into what does sustainable wine growing mean on the ground.

[00:11:56] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's, it's another way of having that kind of farmer to farmer, winery to winery contact to see what people are doing and, and how they've made it work and kind of encourages people to try things for themselves.

[00:12:09] Allison Jordan: Exactly. Get some good ideas of things that you might want to talk to them about. And I think that's another key thing about wine growing. Virtually all of our green metal recipients, I feel like are leaders in that they're willing to share that information and participate in field days and workshops and all of the things that all of our organizations do to advance sustainability.

[00:12:28] And when you look at it, it's amazing. We're the fourth largest wine producing region in the world. And today we have 85 percent of California wine being made in a certified sustainable winery and 67 percent of the acreage is certified to one of the California programs. So it's really exciting to see that level of adoption.

[00:12:47] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, we've come a long way.

[00:12:49] Allison Jordan: We really have.

[00:12:50] Craig Macmillan: We really have. Thanks to the efforts of folks like you.

[00:12:53] Allison Jordan: It's been a pleasure to be working in this field for now over 20 years, which is hard to believe.

[00:12:57] Craig Macmillan: I know, I know. Is there one thing that you would tell growers regarding this topic in terms of either applying for awards or how to use what you can find from award winners?

[00:13:10] Allison Jordan: Yeah. So I feel like the awards is one example of how you really have to think of all of the costs and benefits of sustainable wine growing. And as you explore specific practices to make sure they make sense for your operation. One of the things that I think comes to those vineyards and wineries that are adopting sustainable wine growing is the ability to share their story and the positive public relations around it.

[00:13:35] And we can help amplify that through things like the Green Metal Awards. The green metal.org website has lots of great information about, again, the practices being used by the recipients. But also you can learn how to apply if you're a vintner or grower for the 2025 awards the applications will most likely open up around November.

[00:13:55] So keep an eye out then and they tend to be due in January. So We will be getting the word out in lots of different ways through the vineyard team and all of our partners and through the California Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance. But you can also just periodically check out greenmetal. org to see if there's any new information about it.

[00:14:14] Craig Macmillan: So we've got greenmiddle. org is a great resource. Where else can people find out more about you and your organization?

[00:14:20] Allison Jordan: Our organizational website is sustainablewinegrowing. org. We also have one for, basically for more our, our Interested consumers and retailers and other stakeholders. That's all around certification. And that's California sustainable wine.com. And then the last one I'll mention is, is again, just showing the breadth and depth of all of the different initiatives across the state.

[00:14:42] So in honor of 30 years of all of the different sustainable initiatives in the state, we put together a website called californiasustainablewinegrowing. org and it has a retrospective of some of the really key milestones. That all of our respective programs have done. So if you're looking for some of that history of how this idea and this approach has evolved in California, that's a really great place to look.

[00:15:09] Craig Macmillan: Cool. Well thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is really great. And I'm really happy that we can support some of these leaders and get some of these messages out there. I think it's really important and it's been the mission of all of these organizations. And so to be able to come together for something like this is really great.

[00:15:23] Allison Jordan: Yes. It's one of my favorite things of the year. So looking forward to celebrating the winners.

[00:15:28] Craig Macmillan: our guest today has been Allison Jordan. She's executive director of the California sustainable wine growing alliance, and we've been talking about the green metal awards here today. Please, by all means, check out the resources we've talked about and think about applying. So I worked for Niner Wine Esates, so we won the business category.

[00:15:45] And what we found as we went about it was, it was a great process internally, to list and think about all the things we've been doing. And what we realized was We were doing a lot of things in a variety of areas and you don't see that you're always focused on whatever the current project is, right?

[00:16:07] You're always focused on fixing whatever. And when we stopped and actually kind of meditated on it, it was like, wow, you know, there's a lot that we're doing and a lot that's going on. And then it also helped us identify areas where we thought, Hey, you know, maybe we haven't paid attention to this.

[00:16:17] Like maybe we should. And I just think that process, regardless of whether you're a winner or not is really valuable. It's a good exercise for people.

[00:16:25] Allison Jordan: Yeah, that's a great, great insight. And I do feel like, you know, certification is a great way to tell, to tell a story. your story, but to add credibility to what you're doing, but you still need those examples. And so taking the time to compile those and to really show what you're doing, what you're exceptional at I think is a really great exercise.

[00:16:44] So fantastic point, Craig.

[00:16:46] Craig Macmillan: All right. Thanks, Allison.

[00:16:47] Allison Jordan: Thanks.

[00:16:48] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by San Agro. Westbridge is now San Agro. When the opportunity came to expand their reach and improve the customer's bottom line, they took it. San Agro's commitment to deliver science based solutions for both sustainable crop health And nutrition remains the same.

[00:17:11] They offer a full line of plant nutrients, biopesticides, and specialty inputs. Visit san agro. com to learn more,

[00:17:20] make sure you check out the show notes for links to all of the 2024 green medal award winners to learn more about Alison and to apply for the 2025 green medal award. You could also listen in to sustainable wine growing podcast episodes. 206, the best newsletter you can send featuring Niner Wine Estates talking about their green medal award and 231 stacking regenerative practices to create a healthy vineyard with a member of the Langtwids family.

[00:17:49] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam. org slash podcast, and you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam. org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.

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[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: While most consumers say that environmental friendliness plays a significant role in how they make purchasing decisions. Brands, messaging about sustainability only reaches about half of global consumers. Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry.

[00:00:24] These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:30] Your sustainable story can be shared across any of your communication channels, including social media, wine club, newsletters, tasting room signage, and so much more.

[00:00:39] Are you wondering what to tell your audience about in your next story? From cover crops to owl boxes and water collection, ponds to native landscaping. There are many sustainability topics. right outside of your window.

[00:00:51] At ancient peaks winery in Santa margarita, California. There is no shortage of natural. conversation fodder. Their sustainable story highlighting the value of habitat shows creative ways to support the native wildlife that lives around their vineyard.

[00:01:07] The Santa margarita ranch. Ava represents just one vineyard. Ancient peaks wineries estate, margarita vineyard. Which is home to an abundance of beloved wildlife.

[00:01:17] The team takes great care to respect and facilitate the presence of their winged and furry friends through the preservation of their habitat.

[00:01:25] Wildlife corridors are present through and around the vineyard to ensure animals have free and safe passage. Black bears, Bobcats, mountain lions, wild pigs turkeys, deer, and bald Eagles are among the many creatures. That you'll find.

[00:01:39] There's also aquatic life at the ranch. The team protects Creek setbacks and implements filter strips between the vineyard and waterways to keep the water healthy. With all of this life on the property, not all of it is beneficial to the health of the vineyard crop. To help keep pests at bay, the ranch attracts natural predators with bat boxes, Al boxes, and wrapped her purchase. They even invite a herd of goats to feast on their vegetation, acting as low impact herbicide alternative.

[00:02:05] They're affiliated margarita adventures is dedicated to nature and wildlife appreciation and education.

[00:02:11] The ranches natural list. Jackleen.

[00:02:14] offers a variety of guided wildlife tours. For guests, including nature, adventure tours, Eagle tours, forging tours, and photograph tours.

[00:02:24] Think about the habitat around your vineyard.

[00:02:27] How will you highlight preserving nature at your property?

[00:02:30] If you want more inspiration to help share your sustainable story, make sure you check out our newly updated online course. We've spent over 40 hours writing new sustainable stories for finding our training module and recording and editing video content.

[00:02:45] This simple yet powerful free tool will help you tell your own personal sustainable message. To get started. Just go to the show notes. Click on the title. Tell your sustainable story to sign up and start writing yours today. Until next time, this is sustainable winegrowing with the vineyard team.

Resources: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Apply for SIP Certified Wine * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Sustainable Story | Print * Sustainable Story | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story?

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Microbial communities vary widely from plant to plant, even from rootstock to rootstock! Philippe Rolshausen, Professor of Cooperative Extension for Subtropical Horticulture in the Department of Botany and Plant Sciences at the University of California Riverside studies the phytobiome. This includes all organisms associated with the vine including bacteria, fungi, insects, and animals. Learn the impact these communities have on your vineyard from young vine decline under extreme stress to the wine’s terrior.

Resources: * 78: Biological Control for Grape Vine Trunk Diseases * A Method to Detect and Quantify Eutypa lata and Diplodia seriata-Complex DNA in Grapevine Pruning Wounds * Endophytic microbial assemblage in grapevine * Grapevine pruning strategy affects trunk disease symptoms, wood pathobiome and mycobiome * Philippe Rolshausen * Phylogenomics of Plant-Associated Botryosphaeriaceae Species * Rolshausen Lab * Soil Health Playlist * Temporal Dynamics of the Sap Microbiome of Grapevine Under High Pierce’s Disease Pressure

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript [00:02:07] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Philippe Roshausen. He is Professor of Cooperative Extension at University of California, Riverside. And today we're going to be talking about the soil microbiome. Thanks for being on the podcast, Philippe.

[00:02:19] Philippe Rolshausen: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:20] Craig Macmillan: Well, when we do these topics, like to start from the very basics. And then we can go very deep from there. What is your definition of the soil microbiome?

[00:02:31] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, a microbiome is the collection of microbes. The soil microbiome is the collection of microbes associated with the soil. I have to say we work on the soil microbiome, but we also work on the phytobiome, which is the collection of organisms. associated with the, the, vine, and that can be fungi, bacteria, viruses, even insects. So we are more interested in fungi and bacteria in my lab. And especially those that live inside the vine and how it's connected to the roots and the soil.

[00:03:12] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm very interested in that. Just for our listeners, other aspects of the soil microbiome could include things like microarthropods,

uh, nematodes, etc. It's a very complex Complicated

ecosystem.

[00:03:26] Philippe Rolshausen: I and I only focus on one part of it.

[00:03:29] Craig Macmillan: The work that I've done with soil microbiome in a very primitive way. We just focused on total bacteria, total biomass, things like that.

You just mentioned this and this is a good jumping off point actually. Because plants are an active part of this ecosystem, you will find different soil microbiomes around different crops. What is the soil microbial community like around grapevines in particular?

[00:03:50] Philippe Rolshausen: Well compared to, to what is the question. Let's give you an example. I work on citrus and grapes in the same soil environment, you would see differences between a grapevine and the citrus plant just because of the property of the host. Within grapevine, you know. Depending on the variety or the rootstocks, I should say then you would also have different microbial communities associated with the rootstock.

And this is like a plant effect because plant recruits their microbes. So, so you have sort of a template of microbial or a core microbiome, which is you would find across a different rootstock or varieties of grapes or even plants. But then. Some are very variety specific or host specific, and so you would tend to see some varietal specificity and specific microbe associated with some of those rootstock operants.

[00:04:47] Craig Macmillan: That's news to me. That's fascinating.

there is some commonality, but you will find some differences just based on things like rootstock?

[00:04:56] Philippe Rolshausen: Yes.

[00:04:57] Craig Macmillan: Oh, that is interesting. We may come back to that. one of the things about your work that I was really intrigued by, which I was unaware of, is the different microorganisms that one might find inside the grapevine, and what roles they play in the functioning of the plant. I mean, I think most of familiar with Our gut microflora. Right, where we know that we have organisms inside us. We have organisms on our skin and all that. I didn't realize that was true for plants as well. Tell me more about that.

[00:05:26] Philippe Rolshausen: You can make the parallel between the roots and the gut, actually.

Because they have similar functions. Especially with respect to nutrient assimilation Defense against disease, for instance. Now, the gut is inside, the root is outside. Someone made the comment that the plant where there are guts on the outside, just because of that parallel that between the rhizosphere and the gut.

there is a connection between what's going on inside the plant and what's going on outside the plant. We are interested to understand what the organisms that live inside the plant. Where they're coming from. in terms of diversity the endosphere, which is the the region of the, the organism living inside the plant, the endosphere is not very diverse.

There's only a few of thousand fold less microbe capable of living inside the plant just because it's a more. Stringent environment I work on the xylem a lot and, you know, there's a negative pressure for instance, there are, there's not a lot of food available, for instance.

And so microbes have to adapt to those environments, right? And it's not every microbe is capable of doing that. there's only A certain type of microbe that can live inside them. we're interested in those because we work specifically on vascular disease of grapevines, so fungi, bacteria especially.

And we try to understand how those pathogens interact with the plant, but also really understand those pathogen within the, context of the microbial community and how those pathogen interact with the microbes living inside the plants. to go back to your question, it's like, where are those pathogen coming from?

How did they get there? How do they interact with the plant and how do they interact with the microbes? within those interaction, what would be the, the disease outcome in certain type of interaction.

[00:07:35] Craig Macmillan: So what we're talking about is we have these pathogenic organisms Which could be in the form of like grapevine trunk disease Things like that or Peirce's disease. In the case of bacteria and what you're getting at is it that there's other types and populations of microbes that may be antagonistic to the pathogen?

[00:07:56] Philippe Rolshausen: Yes. So that was our hypothesis. Traditionally, you know, microbiologists were looking for biological control agent against diseases and they were culturing those.

That was the traditional approach. So you take a plant tissue, You put it in the culture media and you see what's growing and then you test if those organism are able to inhibit the growth of your pathogen. That would be the traditional way of doing it. Now, with the metagenomics , the development of those technology, we're able to kind of look, at the entire community of those organisms living inside the plant and using those tools, we could actually select those that have some.

That might be antagonistic to certain pathogens. the beauty of this is that you can actually look at the entire community. When you look at a traditional microbial approach, you kind of zoom in on, to those that can grow in culture and those that can grow fast in culture and sort of overpower the other ones.

when you use those molecular approaches, you look at the entire community and you can And sort of a broader view of really what's going on and who does what. and so that's the approach that we've been doing to try to identify biological control agents or beneficial organism to plants and to grapes in particular.

what we do is we select plants with different phenotypes. So we will select. Plants that, you know, that range from very healthy to poor health. And we're able to build those sort of correlations with organisms that associate specifically with healthy plants and those that associate with sick plants.

and from that, once we have identified the organism, we can go back and try to culture it and to reintroduce him in the system to prove that Actually, they are beneficial in some capacity.

[00:09:52] Craig Macmillan: does this mean that I could have plant material, and one of those vines would be healthy and one would be weak and showing disease, but they both would have the pathogen, it's just that the other one has the microbial community to help fight it.

[00:10:07] Philippe Rolshausen: That's right.

[00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: Wow.

[00:10:09] Philippe Rolshausen: there's a environmental factor that comes into play as well. because abiotic stresses also so like, you know, drought or heat play a factor into the plant, weaken the plant in some capacity and will change the disease outcome and the interaction between the pathogen and the microbe.

There are more layers than, you know, the simple pathogen, microbe. plant interaction There's also the environment in which those components are part of that really plays a big factor.

[00:10:43] Craig Macmillan: So, are you finding or pursuing how those abiotic factors can be manipulated?

[00:10:50] Philippe Rolshausen: A little bit. I'm really interested in those aspects of, especially in the eras of climate change.

plants are going to be subjected to a lot more stress than they used to be. I think we need to understand how this is going to affect the, the microbiome at large and because I'm a pathologist, how this is going to affect disease outcome. we are starting to only scratch the surface of that.

I think a lot of people are as well. It's a lot more complicated when you work with. Woody perennial than when you work with an annual plant, because you have the approaches and the logistics are more challenging, I would say. drought is the number one just because it's been on the radar of every grower in California, but so we, you know, we are interested to see how those factors really affect the Have an effect on disease.

Yes.

[00:11:44] Craig Macmillan: Are you doing that in the laboratory?

[00:11:46] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, yes. You have to sort of work in more controlled conditions and sort of dissect it one stress at a time. so it is in more greenhouse conditions or gross chamber conditions where you can, semi controlled environment where you can really control heat or, you know, water or, and see how that affects the microbiome.

[00:12:07] Craig Macmillan: I think this is fascinating. can you tell me more about what that actually looks like, like how do you set it up? How are you controlling it? What kind of ranges are you using? I love the details.

[00:12:17] Philippe Rolshausen: So we've done experiments mostly with irrigation so far. And we are only starting to tie irrigation to microbiome, but we have done the.

How irrigation affects severity of disease and impact on the plant. this is pretty straightforward, you have plants that are fully irrigated that are not on the deficit irrigation, and then you calculate what a deficit irrigation like a 25 percent deficit irrigation look like, a 50 percent deficit irrigation look like, measuring, you know, how much water.

How much irrigation you put in on your plants, you inoculate your tree or vine with a pathogen, and you let it incubate for, you know, weeks, because you know, those are slow pathosystems, they take time, and you see how that affects for trunk disease in particular lesion of the wood necrotic lesion, for instance.

And then we look at factors on the plant. We measure biomass, for instance, of the roots, the shoots. We look at gas exchange, photosynthesis, and so on and so forth. going down to the microbiome, you know, we would be sampling the tissue, extracting the DNA, and then sequencing, you know, all the microbial community, bacterial and fungal, to see how those communities have changed over time in a well watered versus a deficit irrigated plants.

[00:13:49] Craig Macmillan: And is that quantitative analysis, or is it simply the complexity of the diversity of the microbiome

[00:13:56] Philippe Rolshausen: it's semi quantitative so let's say, you know, like you're looking at a presence of a specific taxa.

It's a relative abundance of the taxa in comparison to the others. So when you see an increase of the taxa. in your community, it's either because it does increase or because the other taxa within that community decreased. So it increases in, in relation to that. So it's not really an absolute measure of abundance.

It is a relative measure of abundance, but you could still use it and make some correlation with that.

[00:14:34] Craig Macmillan: Can you explain, metagenomics?

[00:14:37] Philippe Rolshausen: That's not my field. To be honest with you, but the principle is that you're using primers that are universal primers and that allow you to, so there are.

Meaning that you can sequence conserved region. So those primers are aligned with conserved region across several taxonomic groups. Okay, so fungi or bacteria. And then you sequence a length of nucleotide. In our case, it's about 200, 250 nucleotides in length. In between, and this is valuable between those two.

Primers, that region is valuable. And so you could start making you can do a micro real fingerprinting and identify which types are, are present, you know, but it's the community of organism. So it's like all the fungal communities or all the bacterial communities. So some primers are better than others for special taxonomy group.

So for instance. I work with Dario Cantu at UC Davis, CBT Controlled Neurology. Davis uses field of knowledge, and so he developed primers for group causing grapevine trunk diseases. And so it's mostly what's called the Ascomycota phyla. his primers are mostly focusing on this group of, fungi, but it doesn't give any information on The basidiomycota, which is another group, or the glomerulomycota, which is the mycorrhizae fungi.

if you wanted to get information about this group, you would need to get a different set of primers, right? so it's really up to primer that you're using that gets you the right information. and also the database that you're using that gives you the right information because sometimes the database are not curated or they're not accurate, and those are getting better as we're getting more and more knowledge about the taxonomy and, and the biology of those organisms.

we're able to make more accurate prediction because we're gaining more knowledge about those organisms. So for instance, there's a lot more information about bacteria than, They are about fungi just because there are not a lot of reference genome for fungi compared to bacteria. so it's a lot more difficult to predict. Sometimes for fungi than it is for bacteria.

[00:17:01] Craig Macmillan: But it sounds like that would be coming down the road.

[00:17:04] Philippe Rolshausen: Oh yeah, yeah, it's a matter of time. I mean, really, you know, this technology is going so fast, so quickly that, in five years from now, I can't even predict what it's going to look like,

[00:17:15] Craig Macmillan: This thought just occurred. your work is obviously, I don't want to say infancy, but it's, it's pretty early work. You know, we're, we're working with tools that are still in development, basically. at this point, would you say that there are certain conditions or practices or manipulations that a grower could use to promote the most beneficial endo, um, microbiome in their plants?

[00:17:40] Philippe Rolshausen: In principle, yes, and I believe that this is true. We just don't have the knowledge yet to make recommendations that are solid. There we go. So, when you apply something to your soil, you know, if you're a grower and you apply fertilizers, or this is going to, or even if you if you till your soil or it will have some impact on the soil microbiology.

That we know. How that reflects to what's going on inside the plant, we are, we are not there yet. We, we don't have that knowledge yet just because like I've said before, only a few of those organisms move inside the plant. There's always a a gap between you know, what's going on outside the plant and what's going on inside the plant.

The inside the plant it's a buffered environment that changes very slowly compared to the root of, a grapevine. what we've done is we've looked at the microbiome of vines that we planted in the field and look at the rhizosphere microbiome, or the, the The macro bill community associated with the root and the macro bill, community associated with the trunk, the graft union, and so forth.

And we see right after planting that the microbial communities associated with the root changes really quickly, whereas the the microbiome in the trunk are the graph union. changes very slowly. whatever growers do and cultural practices that they implement in the vineyard will have a limited effect inside the vine or it will take years for this to see the effect.

the rhizosphere microbiome drive a lot of, of biological function, you know, they, they, they fix nitrogen metabolize phosphorus detoxify compounds and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of, benefits of, using some cultural practices, beneficial practices and how they affect microbial communities associated with the roots.

[00:19:48] Craig Macmillan: We know that for like the pathogenic organisms, like the fungal ones, you know, they come in through wounds, whether that's a grafting or whether that's a pruning, we know that bacteria are introduced through things like piercing sucking insects. Like Leaf Hoppers and Peirce's disease. what is the, pathway for the bacteria and fungi that you find inside of a vine that are not the pathogens?

[00:20:10] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, you said it. the pathway is like from inside the vine, it's first of all inherited from the nursery. That's, that's the main pathway.

And then. Some of those organisms come from the soil, there's a fraction that comes from the soil and move throughout the plant systemically through the sap, the plant sap. So that's another pathway one of the major pathway. But again, that takes time. Right. And then, you have fewer introduction that comes through, you know, the plant natural openings, stomatas on the leaves, for instance.

Right. Or pruning wounds. Some organism when vines are pruned some organism common pruning wounds and are able to colonize down into the vascular system. That's another path. Or introduction through insects. And, you know, OSA is, you know, one of the best example of that being introduced with shop shooters. during feeding So, but I would say those, are minor introduction compared to what's already there when the vine is being planted and secondary to movement you know, sap movement throughout the plant, from the root to the upper part of the plant.

[00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: One thing that I saw mentioned is that these variations in The microbiome inside the plant may also have kind of a role in our concept of terroir in terms of how different areas have different characteristics. Is there, something to that idea?

[00:21:46] Philippe Rolshausen: the characteristic of wine region or the terroir is not only linked to the soil, the variety or the weather condition.

. It's also linked to the microbial communities associated with those vines. There has been a study that's very famous that was done 10 years ago at UC Davis that showed that. But it's mostly true for organisms that live on the plant surfaces the surface of the berries or the surface of the leaves.

It is not so true for organisms that live Inside the vasculature of the vine, just because of what we've talked about, just because it takes time for those communities to change over time. really those the microbial composition of the trunk is, from what we understand today, mostly inherited from what's coming from the nurseries.

you know, nurseries have a huge impact in shaping. the microbial communities of the trunk and the vines and you know, can you talk about terroir when it comes to the endosphere of the vine? I don't think so. I think it's, it's a debatable question. I think it's mostly true on epiphytic organism, organism that live on the vine surface just because they are more subject to the environment. Whereas it's not so true for trunk organisms,

[00:23:11] Craig Macmillan: , Even though we've been talking about the endophytic side, what's some of the things that the other parts do you were just talking about, we have a different community in the environment that's on the surface of the plant and that, that has a role in, you know, differences between regions in terroir. What impact are those kinds of organisms having on the physiology of the vine that contributes to those differences?

[00:23:35] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, that I don't know because, you know, that's not the field I've studied. But they, could influence the fermentation process, but I'm more interested in the one that live inside.

Do they have an impact on the wine quality itself, perhaps, you know, that's a question we're interested in. they have an impact on disease. We know that much because they, they affect disease outcome and we've shown that.

The question also, I think, from the standpoint of A grape grower or a winemaker is like, well, do they also affect winemaking?

we found some bacterium in the sap of grape vines that are present during the fermentation process. So lactobacillus, for instance we found those in the sap of grapes and some bacteria that also that spoil the wine fermentation process will also. Found them in the sap. So the question is like, are those, are those coming from the soil?

You know, where are they coming from? We find them in the sap and then can they go inside? Can they be moved to the berry of the grapes and then participate in the fermentation process later on? We don't know the answer to that question. The only thing we know so far is that we can detect them inside the plant stem.

And so. What is the impact? That's the question mark, but those are really relevant questions questions we're interested in because, if you can connect the root system to the cluster, and then if you can influence the root system or the microbial community of the root system, then perhaps you can influence the communities living in the cluster and then, you know, Later on, influence your fermentation process.

So that's the idea behind it. It will take time to decipher those questions.

[00:25:27] Craig Macmillan: Coming back to the pathology side. we have testing programs for virus in the nursery system. And we have the ability to test for fungal diseases, of course.

Do you see a role for testing for bacteria and fungi other than the pathogens at the nursery stage?

[00:25:48] Philippe Rolshausen: I don't think it makes sense. So we've been working with nurseries for several years now. And we are looking for where diseases are coming from prior to vineyard establishment. there's no certified program for fungal diseases and some bacterial disease like Crown gall.

there is a fraction of those pathogen that is coming from the nurseries. That's a fact and this is true for California, but this is true for everywhere else in the world. So if you get any. any vines from a nursery, you are going to find fungi causing grapevine trunk disease. And the reason is that there are over a hundred taxa of fungi causing grapevine trunk disease you will likely find one of them and not only that, but they are able to live on a different environment. And so they can live in soil, they can live in water, they can live in plant debris for some of them. And so you cannot get rid of them. I think that growers have to have the mindset that you are not going to be able to have plants free of pathogens causing fungal, grapevine, and trunk disease.

That's just not possible. Viruses, you can get rid of them and there is a certified program that works for that. This program would not work for fungi. It's just not realistic. Right. It would be too costly to do it. Right. Right. Right. Right. The question is like, can you live with it, right? Do pathogen causing grapevine trunk disease will cause the vine to die?

If that were the case, you would have no grape production in California because virtually all the vines are infected with one fungus causing grapevine trunk disease. that's not the case. It happens, it's called young vine decline, you know, when sometimes growers plant their vine. And the vine dies within five years.

But this is because what we understand now is that it's related to the stress factor that I was talking about earlier. there is something going on with the environmental stress that caused the vine to decline after five years. what we've done is to monitor the microbiome and the vine, like I've told before, following planting.

And we do capture those pathogen from the nursery to the vineyard. And they are evolving in the vineyard just and we can detect them. But under no stress conditions the vines are doing just fine. So every year a vine will lay out new wood, right? It will grow out some wood. The trunk gets bigger and bigger.

the fight between the trunk disease pathogen and the vine is if the vine can grow wood faster than it loses some to trunk disease, then it's fine, you know, it will be able to survive. Plants and grapes are able to compartmentalize the infection. They lay out walls to compartmentalize infection, and if they do that successfully, you know, Then they will survive now when you have a stress factor that comes into play and here you have to Go back and define well define stress this is where we go back and go back to your question about what stress are we talking about?

Heat a drought I think overcropping can be one of them also, when growers take tend to push the vine early on after the establishment to get into production quickly after two years. I view this as a stress factor, so this will influence the microbiome of the vine, living of the microbiome living inside the vine, and as a result, it will influence disease outcome.

[00:29:34] Craig Macmillan: I will not look at grapevines the same way. , is there one thing, one takeaway from this conversation that you'd like growers to hear

[00:29:44] Philippe Rolshausen: what we're trying to do is to identify cultural practices that are beneficial to production.

I think you, you have to look at it from a probiotic or prebiotic. Standpoint, just like we do for humans, you know. when you look at the prebiotics, those are similar to the cultural practices that you implement in vineyards to support the presence of beneficial organisms. that can be, you know, adding compost to your soil or cover cropping because they provide some benefits to the microbes living in the soil, and as a result, the microbe associated with the vine.

that's one of them. The probiotic is the addition of single microbes to the system identify which one of those probiotics using the metagenomics approach. And we've made some some stride in, in, in that research, we've identified several organisms that are beneficial to the plant and that are antagonistic to some of the disease.

So for instance Pierce's disease we've identified several organism living inside the vines that are antagonistic to PD. And today we are testing those organism in field trials at UC Davis. Because we've demonstrated that they, they work on the greenhouse condition. And now we moved on to field trials.

And when we inoculate those beneficial organisms to, or those probiotics to vine, they are able to stimulate the vine health in some capacity, or are being antagonistic to the pathogen in some capacity. And the vines are able to sustain the disease. So, the takeaway message from that is that we are making progress, you know, understanding what those probiotics and prebiotics are for viticulture.

[00:31:39] Craig Macmillan: That is great. and I'm really happy, That you're doing this work. It takes time Oh yeah, It takes time. Absolutely, that's, and that's, part of what we do here is we, bring people kind of what the future is looking like and what's possible because if you understand it, then when it does come along, The learning curve is already hopefully down the road a little ways. doing your homework, basically. thank you in your lab. This is really exciting. interesting stuff. Where can people find out more about you?

[00:32:09] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, they can go to the University of California, Riverside Botanical and Plant Sciences website. I'm a faculty member, so they will find me there.

I have also my personal website. Rolshausen. Slash lab. com. The problem is like the spelling of my name, right? It's not easy to do.

[00:32:27] Craig Macmillan: We'll have a link to that show page plus A a number of your recent publications.

[00:32:33] Philippe Rolshausen: Yeah, we have several publications about what we've talked about today.

We have just had one released about how pruning practices affect also the microbiome and, and disease. So. You know, this is an active area of research. I'm not the only one doing this. Like I've said, I've collaborated with Dario Cantu at UC Davis. And I think he should be mentioned because he's doing some excellent work.

And we are a great team working together. As a cooperative extension specialist, I collaborate with others. I collaborate with other faculty. And this is a collaborative work that I'm talking about. I'm not the only one,

[00:33:11] Craig Macmillan: there's a network. want to thank our guest, Philippe rolshausen. He is professor of cooperative extension with the university of California riverside and doing some very exciting work. And thanks for being on the podcast, Philippe.

[00:33:24] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, that was great. Thank you for having me.

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[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: For your wine club members. Is there anything more exciting than delivery day? Unboxing the latest assortment, stir sweet memories of their last visit to the winery and welcomes them to once again, connect with your community.

[00:00:13] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While, our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable. Winegrowing.

[00:00:32] Your wine club newsletter prepares your customer for the delights ahead, but does it invite them to relish in the social and environmental virtues of their loyalty?

[00:00:42] Next time you send out a newsletter, include a sustainability tidbit. So your brands enthusiasts know that they're sipping sustainably.

[00:00:50] You can start by including a brief description of the sustainable practices at your property. For SIP certified brands, we talk about the seven values. Which includes social responsibility, wiper management, safe, pest management. Energy efficiency, habitat business, and always evolving.

[00:01:08] A great way to help your customers really see what you're doing to be sustainable is to share your sustainable story.

[00:01:15] You can talk about attracting barn owls and releasing beneficial insects to help manage pests naturally.

[00:01:22] You can share pictures of the native plants in your cover crop and explain how they benefit pollinators and help improve soil health.

[00:01:28] Or you could talk about how you treat winery, process water. So that it can be reused to irrigate the landscape or the vineyard.

[00:01:36] Your customers will love learning how your brand conserves and protects natural resources.

Tell Your Sustainable Story [00:01:42] If you need more ideas, make sure you check out our newly updated course. We spent over 40 hours writing new sustainable stories, refining our training module and recording and editing video content to bring you an updated online course.

[00:01:58] The simple yet powerful free tool will help you tell your own personal sustainable message. Go to the show notes, click on the title. Tell your sustainable story to sign up and start writing yours today.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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For thousands of years, wildfires have produced a byproduct known to improve soil and plant health - biochar. Today, researchers like Kelpie Wilson of Wilson Biochar Associates, Consulting and Manufacturing are learning how to use this form of charcoal for carbon sequestration. Kelpie explains the different stages of combustion, what types of material to include in your burn pile, incorporating biochar into compost, how to use biochar to amend alkaline or acetic soils, and an easy way to remove vineyard wires from your pile.

Resources: * 56: Conservation Burning and Biochar * 106: What? Bury Charcoal in the Vineyard? * 167: Use Biochar to Combat Climate Change * 215: Biochar Production on a Commercial Scale * A Case of Biochar Use in Vineyards – Doug Beck * A magnifying glass on biochar strategy: long-term effects on the soil biota of a Tuscan vineyard * Biochar Use in Viticulture (US Biochar Initiative webinar link) * Deep incorporation of organic amendments into soils of a ‘Calardis Musqué’ vineyard: effects on greenhouse gas emissions, vine vigor, and grape quality * Long-Term Application of Biochar Mitigates Negative Plant–Soil Feedback by Shaping Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi and Fungal Pathogens * Ring of Fire Biochar Kiln * The Biochar Handbook: A Practical Guide to Making and Using Bioactivated Charcoal * Vineyard Field Trial with Biochar and Compost_ 5th Harvest Report * Wilson Biochar

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: For thousands of years, wildfires have produced a by-product known to improve soil and plant health. This is known as bio char. Welcome to sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth organic executive director. And since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business.

Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. He speaks with Kelpie Wilson of Wilson, biochar associates consulting in manufacturing.

Kelpie explains the different stages of combustion.

What types of material to include in your burn pile? Incorporating bio char into compost. How to use bio char to amend alkaline or acidic soils and an easy way to remove vineyard wires from your pile.

If you love this topic, then you won't want to miss Josiah Hunt's presentation. Practical applications of pyrogenic, organic material, AKA biochar in vineyards. He shares his expertise at the sustainable ag expo taking place November 12th or 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. joy, the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts.

Earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. As a listener to this show, you can take $50 off of your ticket when you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today@sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in.

[00:02:00] Craig Macmillan: Our guest, today is Kelpie Wilson. She's the owner of Wilson Biochar Associates, consulting and manufacturing. And as you may have guessed today, we're going to talk about biochar. Welcome to the podcast, Kelpie.

[00:02:08] Kelpie Wilson: Thanks. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:11] Craig Macmillan: What exactly is biochar?

[00:02:13] Kelpie Wilson: Biochar is just charcoal, but it's special charcoal that, uh, you can use in soil or for purposes of carbon sequestration. That's the official definition from the International Biochar Initiative.

[00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: And what does biochar do for us in the vineyard?

[00:02:30] Kelpie Wilson: Well, it sequesters carbon, so it's a very stable form of carbon. Uh, Carbon comes in a lot of different forms. I mean, we're all made of carbon, and, you know, carbon can be a diamond, which is really stable, or it can be in a sugar, which, uh, you um, oxidized into CO2 pretty quickly. So uh, in is very, in a very stable form um, it's called aromatic carbon, so it's fused carbon rings.

which are the basis of all organic chemistry. biochar is. It's carbon. The thing about biochar and charcoal is that charcoal can have, you know, widely ranging different properties depending on how you make it and what it's made from. And I should add also that uh, in the definition of biochar, For use in soil or for use in carbon sequestration, it needs to be made from organic you know, that is clean.

So there are some environmental kind of limits around it that ensure that it's, it's really contributing to the carbon cycle in a positive way and that we're not making Materials that have, you know, toxics in them that could hurt soil.

[00:03:41] Craig Macmillan: So we're introducing carbon in a fairly stable people have told me that the carbon that you put into the soil in the form of biochar could be there for thousands of years, but it's obviously available somehow, or it's involved in the soil microbiome somehow, or it's involved in nutrient cycling somehow.

What are some of the properties that contribute to that soil health component,

[00:04:00] Kelpie Wilson: Well, There's there's quite a few. The interesting thing about biochar is that it's naturally present in soils in many, many parts of the world because of fire, from vegetation fires, forest fires, it's it's supposed to be there in many cases. Uh, Especially here in the, in the in the west coast where we uh, natural fire regime in the forest.

And if you look at the most productive soils in the world, for instance, the mollisols in Iowa or the um, in the Eurasian steppe, they have large amounts of biochar Um, In the case of the steppes and the plains, that's because of prairie fires. So you have these tall, tall grasses that would periodically burn off very regularly, like every 10 years or so, and the top would burn off in a flame, and that heat would radiate you know, kind of just above the root zone, the grasses are bunched up really thick, and some air is excluded, so they wouldn't burn all the way to ash, but the heat would turn it to char, the flame would move on, and you'd be left with char, and so this char builds up over years and centuries, and, you know, hundreds of centuries to make this a very black soil and then there are other places around the world historically going back thousands of years where it was deliberately to add to soil.

So those are the terra preta soils in the Amazon naturally normally didn't have a lot of fires. And look, also can look at charcoal middens around ancient villages and even city states where people would dump their manure and their, you know, their hue manure, their night soil, and they would always deodorize it with charcoal and ash, and you find very fertile black soils in those places.

So, it's not a new thing um, but we just kind of recently rediscovered So, as far as what it does in soil, you know, it doesn't break down. Like, you know, you asked, well, then how does it feed the It it sets the table. So It's the stable carbon with these fused carbon rings. It doesn't break down easily.

And we'll also have the mineral ash. from the vegetation that burned. And so that's food. And then it also needs the carbs and the protein. So, and that comes from all the fertilizer that you add to it. So it basically sets the table for soil life because microbes like to sit down when they

eat. And so you have all these little surfaces.

In the charcoal, it's very, very porous. You know, think of activated carbon. People know that activated carbon is used for filtration. It's got all these pores. And so, in that way, it's kind of like a sponge. It can hold air and soil, which is beneficial. But also, there's the surface area. So, each of those tiny pores has a surface around it.

And when you add up all the surface area, and this is kind of mind boggling, It's But you take a teaspoon of, of or, you know, that's got a lot of surface area or an activated carbon and it can have a football field's worth of surface area all inside It's, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing to think about, but all those surfaces are where the microbes can sit down and attach themselves.

And if we, if we have added fertilizer as well, there are nutrients and water. Attached to those surfaces by electrostatic attraction. So the microbes just can hang out there and, and it's all there for them. So that's how biochar promotes um, the soil food web by, uh, promoting the microbes. And then the their mycelia in there to, you know, get it's a foundation of good soil.

[00:07:42] Craig Macmillan: And you were talking about the fertilizer part. Is that one of the reasons why it's a good idea or a common practice to mix biochar with compost and spread it in that form?

[00:07:50] Kelpie Wilson: Yes, but I would not just mix it with compost if I have any choice at all. I would put it in the beginning of the composting That's where you're going to get the most benefit know, it just takes time for all these things to come And so If you start it from the beginning, not only do you get the nutrients and the biology in there right you're um, having um, beneficial impact on your composting So, You'll have fewer greenhouse gas uh, the compost will get hotter quicker uh, and you know, the char will absorb any kind of nasty stuff that's in there, reduce odors, etc. it's really, The thing about biochar and to make it really work for you in a, in a farm um, is to get every, Benefit you can out of it.

And there's a whole cascade of benefits that come with biochar.

[00:08:40] Craig Macmillan: we can talk about that some more, but let's get to some practical things. Let's say I'm interested in this. I've been hearing about it. I'm excited about it. I want to try this out. How can I make some high quality biochar with the least amount of emissions and the highest biochar production on my farm?

[00:08:57] Kelpie Wilson: Great So I've been working on this for quite a while. When I first heard about biochar, it was, I think, 2007, and it was the terra preta soils that we were all hearing about. I immediately got involved in it. I went to work for the International Biochar you know, was in close touch with people all around the world.

that we're trying to find ways to start making and using biochar, and a lot of the first people to actually do it were people who uh, you know, making little cook stoves or just making biochar in burn piles, and I saw that myself because I live in the woods here in Oregon, and I'd go out to where they did burn piles to, you know, We had a lot of extra vegetation that had to be thinned to protect from wildfire.

And I'd go to these burn piles and I'd find little chunks of charcoal left in them. And so we started making, doing experiments to see if we could optimize that. And we figured out make, take a burn pile and light it from the top. So it burned from the top down, and that would burn up a lot of the smoke so it was cleaner, and also leave us with a little pile of glowing coals at the end.

And anybody who's made a campfire has seen this. You have that pile of glowing coals, and if you just walk away and leave it, it'll all go to ash. But if you just simply put it out with water, hey, you've got biochar. So that's the way to start, and you can can do it in your a, with a kettle grill.

You know, just a little container that will improve the biochar recovery because if you cut off the air that comes in from and the sides of your you, you will just burn less of it to And again, you just put it out with water. So then I started making containers to improve the efficiency.

compared to making biochar in an open burn pile, if you put it in a container, You can make three or four times as much so, I've been working with little containers ever those, We call those flame cap kilns. Because the idea of how they work is you put your, make your burn pile in a container.

It's cutting off air from the bottom and the sides. So all the air comes from the And as it burns down, you keep adding more. And every time you add more material, it flames up. And the char that you've already formed on the bottom is protected from air by the container. And it's protected from air from the top because all the air that comes in is used in the flame of the currently burning material.

And so what you've already made is, is protected from oxygen. So you can build up a huge pile of char in a container, and you're only limited by the size of your container, really.

[00:11:34] Craig Macmillan: So the practice is put your feedstock in a container something that cuts off the bottom the sides from the air Light it from the top with kindling or something I would assume something lighter weight and then as that process goes and you can see the material come back Well, is it truly combustion if there's not a lot of oxygen?

[00:11:51] Kelpie Wilson: Well, uh, I call it combustus interruptus. So basically it is combustion, but combustion happens in stages. Okay. myths combustion. One is um, wood wood burns, wood does not burn. Wood gas burns in a And you can see this if you look at your charcoal grill, you see, there's not a flame.

Because the gas has already been mostly, you know, burned out of it. And so it just glows. So there's different stages of combustion. The first one is dehydration. When you heat a stick of um, water's going to come off of it, because water doesn't burn. And then the gases come out, and those are, methane, carbon burnable, burnable gases, and those make the flame.

And then when the flame goes out, you know, you just, that glowing coal stage. So it's, it's really staged combustion, and you're just interrupting and saving the char.

[00:12:49] Craig Macmillan: If I understand you correctly by putting more material on the top I'm continuing that process. The stuff on this top is heating up. You're getting that, flame cap. So you described it. And I can just keep layering on until my container's full. Basically.

[00:13:04] Kelpie Wilson: Yep, that's how we do

[00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: I want to come back to the kiln idea, but first, what are the, what are good feedstocks to make biochar from? What are feedstocks that are not good for making biochar? Right. Right.

[00:13:19] Kelpie Wilson: Good feedstocks are dry.

You don't want a lot of wet stuff, because you use a lot of energy burning the wet. , Good feedstocks are also appropriately sized. So grapevines, for instance, are good because they're not really big. Even the trunk of a vine is not really big. And so if you try to put a big log in your container on your fire, you use so much energy to get the heat into the center of the log.

So it's a progressive thing, right? You're charring the outside, and the heat's moving in, it's charring and charring and charring. But meanwhile, the outside of your char is starting to burn to ash. So it's not very efficient to try and char a big log. The kind of limit depends a lot on the fuel moisture.

In Utah, we're We have really dry wood. People are putting six and eight inch diameter logs in a kiln and doing fine. In Oregon, I kind of keep it to four inches, usually. But you know, we could do bigger stuff. It's just not quite as efficient. So dry less than 25 percent moisture is ideal. We can do wetter stuff, and we often do because we're here in the middle of winter trying to get burn piles taken care of. So we go ahead and do it, and there's some techniques for optimizing how you do that, how you load it. But dry, less than 25%. and not too big, but also not too small. I've really tried hard to biochar hemp stalks, for instance, which are abundant around here, and they're just a little too small.

if they're dry, they do pretty well, but you have to really make sure you don't pack them in too tightly because, small, small things like straw, and crop waste like that, they will pack and cut off the airflow and you'll get smoke.

[00:15:07] Craig Macmillan: Oh,

okay.

[00:15:08] Kelpie Wilson: That's the main issue is you get smoke.

And then as far as what species, the main difference between different species of wood, for instance, is density.

And because we're making biochar in a flame, we're making it at a very high temperature. So it's, as long as we're not smoldering it, As long as we have the flame present, we know we're making it at a high enough temperature to burn out most of the volatiles. Know, some species like eucalyptus or walnut might have chemicals in them that are allelopathic, I think is the term.

And if you add a lot of that to soil, you could have problems. But as long as we're making it at high temperature, we burn most of that out.

[00:15:50] Craig Macmillan: Got it. So we want things that are dry. We want things that are woody, that are relatively high in concentration. Things like grasses are probably not going to work as well or work terribly well. It sounds like you want chunks basically, you know, something about the size of your forearm or a little bit bigger chunk would be a really

great, size.

[00:16:09] Kelpie Wilson: that's a great way to look at it. I like the physical measurements. You know, I was telling woofers here the other day about how to, make biochar compost. And so we're doing it in layers. And I just said, think about Parmesan cheese. When you add the biochar, if you really like Parmesan on your pizza, just add the biochar like that.

So those kinds of physical measurements are really helpful for people when they're learning how to use biochar.

[00:16:33] Craig Macmillan: and returning to that topic you recommend putting biochar in your composting windrows at the beginning as part of the whole process.

[00:16:41] Kelpie Wilson: Yes.

The very beginning when I think about a vineyard, especially one where you're actually making the wine know, you're pressing the grapes and you have the is it called

pomace? I think the grape skins that's easily degradable stuff. It's hard to, compost just on its own because it doesn't have much carbon, but if you add biochar to that, you can make a beautiful compost.

And then great for reducing on farm inputs. contributing to the circular economy. And that's always how I recommend people use biochar if possible, is find whatever other organic waste streams are there, whether it's grass clippings, grape pomace, leaves, anything else, manure that you might have, mix it right in there.

[00:17:27] Craig Macmillan: Makes tons of sense. Okay. Let's get down to the nitty gritty here. We've touched on kilns as a way of getting the highest production. Tell me about the Ring of Fire Kiln system the concept in general. And then what might, what might be a biochar production day like?

[00:17:42] Kelpie Wilson: The Ring of Fire kiln is my latest, greatest design. Just bin kilns, but they were heavy. So They were, weighing a lot, and you had to, move them around, and very hard for one person. So I came up with this modular design of panels. And so you can hook them together.

They're four feet long and 40 inches tall, and they have a bracket that hooks them all together, and you can make a kiln any size you want. with that. I mean, not too big, but usually we make kilns that are between six feet and 12 feet in diameter. And so that can accommodate the piles you already have, for instance.

And then the other innovation with that kiln is it has a heat shield. And that's really important for two reasons. One is it holds more heat in the kiln so you get more production. It's more efficient. But the other one is that it protects the worker. Because when you are around a giant , flaming pile, you know, you can really get fried just from the radiant heat.

You know, you're not burning up, but you, the radiant heat, I would come away from some of my sessions with very red skin and very dehydrated. And so we really think a lot about the workers who are doing this. Because it's mostly hand labor, although we can also load the bigger kilns with, machinery. that's the Ring of Fire Kiln. It's also very, very clean, and there's a gap between the heat shield and the inner ring that allows, um, air to come through, and then so you have preheated air that's going in from the top into the kiln. And that also helps a lot with, uh, Reducing the smoke. And I have lots of pictures and videos showing the smoke being sucked into the kiln from the top.

It's really cool to see these loops of smoke kind of coming up and then being sucked back down into the kiln. Those are the advantages of the ring of fire kiln in addition to the fact that it's modular. One person can take it apart and move it one panel at a time. The panels only weigh less than 40 pounds and set it up somewhere else.

That's, that's the other advantage of the ring of fire kiln. So a typical workday, and I'm going to quote some numbers from my colleague Eric Meyer, who has Napa char, and he's done some incredible work in vineyards in the last couple years. Here's what he says He can make up to 12 cubic yards of biochar per kiln per day, which is two bone dry tons.

And that is equivalent to two to three acres of pulled mines. he'll do this usually with one helper. Sometimes he'll have a, a mini excavator that he uses to load it, but a lot of times he's just doing it, you know, as hand labor. And so that's a ;lot of biochar, two tons of biochar in one day. He'll start by arriving at the site, setting up his kiln, and then just hand loading the biochar initially, fill it full, light it on top.

There's a little break where you let it burn down till you start seeing glowing coals at the bottom and, some ash on the top. And then you just load it one layer at a time. And the loading rate is really critical. If you overload, you get smoke and you'll end up maybe even with unburned pieces in the bottom because the flame moves up in the kiln as you add more material and the bottom starts cooling off.

You don't want to leave any big pieces at the bottom. We load small pieces initially. And if you have bigger pieces, you would load them kind of toward the end or in the middle. And then when it's all full of biochar, or you're just done for the day because you're tired, you get some water out and you spray the kiln down with water just to cool it.

Then you open up the panels, and rake it out, and you spray it with water and rake it at the same time. So you end up with a big, big patch of biochar on the ground.

[00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: Perfect. Then you take that to your composting spot and away you go. .

[00:21:32] Kelpie Wilson: another piece about making biochar from vineyards, especially vineyard removals, is that a lot of times there's wire, trellis wire, in it. And you could have a big pile and you could build a kiln around the pile because you're not untangling that pile, right, with all the wire in it.

And then at the end, uh, you know, you pick the wire out of the char. You can use a magnet.

[00:21:52] Craig Macmillan: That's cool. What are some things that we should be concerned about not doing? If we are newbies to biochar production.

[00:22:00] Kelpie Wilson: Yeah, that's a really good question too. So, you need to know a little bit about your biochar. If you have a lot of ash in it, it can be alkaline. So if you have an alkaline soil, and you have alkaline biochar, you need to think about how you're going to apply it and maybe, usually composting will take care of any pH issue.

If you have an acidic soil, you might want to just add it directly. You know, take the most advantage you can get of that liming ability. You also don't want to add too much at one time, especially without composting it first, because it can, , lock up nutrients for a short time. Most likely you're not gonna have too much biochar for a, for a big field. Um, It's great to be able to do it a little bit every year. That's the best way to incorporate it.

[00:22:47] Craig Macmillan: Oh, and that's another question. I've seen different strategies here. Some folks believe that it has to be incorporated into the soil. Other folks say, no, that's good, but you can go ahead and spread it at the surface and you'll still get some benefits. Is that true?

[00:22:58] Kelpie Wilson: Well, it's going to depend a lot on what you're trying to grow. So the vineyard trials that I've seen using biochar, a lot of times they're putting it in at planting and they're putting it in deep in the root zone. That seems like a good idea to me. One thing I'll say is when I look at the literature, I read a lot of the biochar research literature.

There's some really interesting new material out about replant disease. So if you're replanting in a vineyard, you know, in an old vineyard, new vines. The soil can harbor pathogens that the older vines were able to resist, but the new vines have a hard time with. And biochar has a lot of benefits for disease resistance, just because it promotes a lot of microbial diversity, so you don't get the dominance with some of the pathogenic fungi and other organisms.

So, you know, adding it, deep You know, when you're doing the replanting, replacing a vineyard is probably the most beneficial way, to add biochar. But if you already have a vineyard and you're using cover cropping, for instance, it'll go really well with a legume cover crop like clover and you don't even need to compost it because clover and legumes fix their own nitrogen and And biochar is especially wonderful with legume crops because it promotes the nitrogen fixing bacteria. If I just had a couple bags of biochar and I wanted to use it right away, and I was, planting a cover crop, I'd just use it in the cover crop. I think vines are like any other plant, where they have roots that come up close to the surface, they can get benefit from surface applied biochar as well.

[00:24:39] Craig Macmillan: So if I'm following this idea, so from a cover cropping standpoint, what am I going to do is broadcast it and then plant my cover crop. That'd be one way of building the health of the whole floor, which is a really good idea. What about banding? It's very popular to band compost right into the vine row.

If I have compost that's got biochar in it, will I get those benefits as well?

[00:24:59] Kelpie Wilson: I would totally think so. The other thing about biochar is that it holds water. So, you know, in, droughty areas that would be helpful to,

[00:25:08] Craig Macmillan: If there was one thing, just one piece of advice that you had for folks, Who are interested in starting to produce biochar and use biochar. Let's talk about it one for production and one thing for use. What would that be? What would that two part advice be?

[00:25:25] Kelpie Wilson: first of all, uh, get one of my ring of fire biochar kilns. It's a, you know, it's really economic. And second of all, buy my book, the biochar handbook, because I have all kinds of information in there about composting, you know, different ways to culture biochar, build soil. Well, you know, so sorry to be so nakedly promotional there, but

[00:25:50] Craig Macmillan: Well, you know, you're directing, you're directing people towards resources,

[00:25:53] Kelpie Wilson: right.

[00:25:53] Craig Macmillan: Anything else?

[00:25:54] Kelpie Wilson: Oh, well, I'll send you some other resources, too, that you don't have to buy the book. Check out the U. S. Biotar Initiative website. There's a Biotar Learning Center there and USBI has collected a lot of resources there. fact sheets, their seminars, webinars. There is a lot of biochar information out there.

And I will say I've watched a few YouTube videos that are just. Make me cringe it is so easy to experiment with it yourself, which is great. It's really great that people experiment with it. And I think, feel free, you know, do your own experiments. , there's some not so great information out there that, you might want to just do your own work and look at the more authoritative sources like that the USBI before you take what a YouTuber says as, as gospel about biochar.

So I guess my one advice really on both, topics of production and application is just jump in and try it. It's so easy. You know, make it, make a bonfire in your backyard or, any kind of little container. You could dig a little shallow pit in the ground and, just make some biochar, then you've got some.

Now do some, greenhouse trials. You know, see how it interacts with your soil because every soil is different. And so, check the pH, add it to, you know, your soil, and, grow a seedling. it's very easy to do some experiments. I actually have, in my book, a whole procedure for how to do a, scientifically valid experiment. Uh, Pot trial in the greenhouse, so you can really, step by step, you can really look and see how it compares with other amendments, try it in your compost pile, use a compost thermometer, it's not straightforward how to use it in compost, because again, compost like soil, it's going to have a lot of different kinds of ingredients, biochar does really interesting things, in compost, so.

Just try it.

[00:27:46] Craig Macmillan: Just try it. Like that's great advice. Our guest today has been Kelpie Wilson. She's the owner of Wilson Biochar Associates Consulting and Manufacturing. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been some really great practical, actionable information, which is what we like to bring our listeners.

As Kelpie mentioned, we're going to have a lot of links to things and resources and whatnot on the show notes. So be sure to travel to that page. I'm finding that this is a growing topic of interest, but I'm finding that there's more and more folks that are trying it, and we're all very excited for what the potential might be.

[00:28:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by San agro. WestBridge is now San aggro. When the opportunity came to expand their reach and improve their customer's bottom line, they took it. San Agros commitment to deliver science-based solutions for sustainable crop health and nutrition remains the same.

They offer a full line of plant nutrients, bio pesticides, and specialty inputs. Visit San agro.com to learn more.

Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Kelpie her new book, the bio char handbook, a practical guide to making and using bioactivated charcoal loads, more links to bio char plus sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes. 56 conservation burning and bio char. 1 0 6, what? Barry charcoal and the vineyard. 1 67. Used bio char to combat climate change and two 15 bio char production on a commercial scale. If you'd liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend. Subscribing and leaving us a review.

You can find all of the podcasts on vineyard team.org/podcast. And you can reach us@podcastatvineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

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[00:00:00] Customer sense of urgency around climate change is rising. In fact, 78% of global consumers feel that environmental sustainability is important.

[00:00:10] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable while our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:29] Customers like the idea of being sustainable and want to live more sustainable lives. While, many brands and retailers today are making eco-friendly claims. Some chalk up to little more than greenwashing. A marketing ploy designed to make products seem more sustainable than they are. Because of this consumers can feel that they can't always trust green claims.

[00:00:50] It is more important than ever for sustainable brands like you to share your sustainable story in a meaningful and authentic way.

[00:00:58] In this week's marketing tip. We share a great example. With Niner wine estates, sustainable story on the value of energy efficiency.

[00:01:06] Electricity use in the winery accounts for a large proportion of the end products, energy demand. From keeping buildings and tanks at proper temperatures to powering equipment and lighting energy use in the winery adds up quickly. Anticipating increasing energy demand and cost. Niner wine estates built its winery into a hillside. Because of this, the ground level on one side of the building is a couple of stories higher. Then the ground level on the other side. This wasn't a flaw in the design, rather, a strategy to allow for a gravity flow winemaking system. are brought into the facility at the top level, instead of being transferred by machines, the grapes move with gravity down the tiers of the building through each stage of the winemaking process.

[00:01:51] Another other energy efficient benefit of the hillside is that the earth surrounding the building works as a natural insulator, reducing the need for a cooling system to keep the facility at optimal temperatures. is another element that Niner wine estates utilizes large windows in the production facility and tasting rooms allow sunlight to fill these buildings during the day. When they do need electricity. The grid is not their primary source. Since 2015, the majority of their tasting room restaurant. Wineries and Wells have been powered by the sun. There are two banks of high efficient solar panels on the property. One at the top of their winery building and the other on the ground next to their tasting room.

[00:02:33] Additional solar panels can be found in the parking lot, but they aren't used to power business operations.

[00:02:39] solar banks are on top of EVs charging stations, welcoming staff and guests to plug in while they enjoy their time at nine or wine estates.

[00:02:47] Together. All of these components have a significant impact on Niner wine estates, energy efficiency. them to symbols of sustainability, achievement, sip certified and lead a certified level. Silver. Make sure you check out the show notes. For the link called stacking energy savings, sustainable story at Niner wine estates to see pictures of their energy efficient facility.

[00:03:13] here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the sustainable story program. This simple, yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal and it just got better. With the upgraded online course, go to the show notes, click the link titled tell your sustainable story. To sign up and start writing yours today.

[00:03:35] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course. Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * 240: Stacking Energy Savings | Sustainable Story: Niner Wine Estates * Apply for SIP Certified Wine * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Sustainable Story | Print * Sustainable Story | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story?

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We regularly hear about eclectic tractors but have you tried an electric truck? Duff Bevill, Founder and Partner and Brooke Parsons, Viticulture Analyst at Bevill Vineyard Management were part of the Ford Pro Pilot Project. They tested the capacity of an electric van, truck towing capabilities, and battery life of electric vehicles during day to day farming operations. The pair discuss the benefits of tracking GPS and maintenance through Ford’s Telematics and the things you need to consider when looking to add an electric truck to your fleet.

Resources: * 120: Autonomous Drone Vineyard Spraying * 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money * 225: California’s Ban on Autonomous Tractors * Bevill Vineyard Management * Farming of the Future: Ford Pro, Sonoma County Winegrowers Join Forces to Electrify Business of Farming * Sustainable Farming in Sonoma County

Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate * SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet * Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - PODCAST24 * Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript [00:00:05] Beth Vukmanic: We regularly hear about electric tractors, but have you tried an electric truck? Welcome to sustainable wine growing with Vineyard Team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. Since 1994, we have brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools. Through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years.

[00:00:37] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time SIP Certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Duff Bevill. Founder and partner. And Brooke Parsons, viticulture analyst at Bevill vineyard management.

[00:00:55] They were part of the Ford probe pilot project, where they tested the capacity of an electric van. Truck towing capabilities and battery life of electric vehicles during day-to-day farming operations. The pair discussed the benefits of tracking GPS and maintenance through Ford telematics and the things you need to consider when looking to add an electric truck to your fleet.

[00:01:17] . Because you listened to this podcast, you won't want to miss the premier wine growing event of the year, the Sustainable Ag Expo. Enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts earn over 20 hours of continuing education. And explore sustainable ag. Vendors. It all takes place.

[00:01:38] November 12th through 13th, 2024 at the Madonna Inn expo center in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast, take $50 off of your ticket. When you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in.

[00:01:56] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Duff Bevill and Brooke Parsons. Duff is owner of Bevill Vineyard Management in Sonoma County. And Brooke Parsons is Viticulture Analyst with Bevill Vineyard Management. And we're going to talk about the Ford Pro Pilot Project that they're involved in. Thanks for being on the podcast.

[00:02:19] Duff Bevill: You bet, man.

[00:02:19] We're happy to be here.

[00:02:20] Craig Macmillan: So Duff, what exactly is this project? How'd you get involved in it? Give us a little history.

[00:02:26] Duff Bevill: Yeah, back in I think it was September, October of 2021. Well, I'm involved with the Sonoma County growers organization and Carissa Cruz, our president and Carissa.

[00:02:37] Got a name of somebody to call. And she made a cold call to a Ford motor company. And then I think one more phone call after that. And she got in touch with Ford pro told him what we were interested in doing. Thought whether it was a perfect fit because our sustainability program that we've you know, managed now for more than a decade, well over a decade.

[00:02:54] And Ford sent someone from Detroit out here to meet with us over dinner and another representative out of Sacramento that was, I think, a lobbyist for Ford, I can't remember exactly. His role, but both of them came out here and she cold called a couple of us to come and have dinner with his middle of harvest and yeah, we hit it off and she went back to I guess, technically Dearborn and told them back there that we were legitimate and she thought that they should pursue something with us.

[00:03:19] So that, that was in September, October, then in November around Thanksgiving. A team from Ford came to meet with us. They want to know size of our fleet of vehicles. They're just trying to get some, to find out how legitimate we might be. And they went back positive. And then the following January, so it'd be January of 2022 Ford came out full blown to Sonoma County, out to the Dutton Ranch.

[00:03:43] And we had a big, giant press release. President Jim Farley came out from Ford, all on film, gave a talk and that sort of thing, and it was a big deal. So that really launched, it's really January of 2022. Roughly probably March, I think it was, of 2022, they didn't have the lightened pickup trucks available yet.

[00:04:01] That was still, suffering from COVID, you know, and, and Production was down. So , they actually had some Ford vans, electric vans, which they just gave us a try and Brooke she was basically assigned that van and tried to figure out what to do with it. And so we, all collectively came up with an idea on how to use the vans, although you know, they're just not a fit for farming, but we made, we made it work out.

[00:04:23] And then I think it was in June, we finally pick up the lightning. So June of 2022, we've got the lightnings. And then what we did was we gave Ford feedback. We met with engineers, either Zoom or in person on a pretty regular basis for the better part of a year. More than a year probably.

[00:04:40] Just getting feedback from a farming point of view, you know, from us using vehicles in the field. And each one of the three companies used them differently and to gather information. I personally wanted to drive it so I could see. How it would work if I want to buy more, would actually work for me .

[00:04:56] I know one of the other companies used to have their shop mechanics use it and another company had one of their field foreman use it. So all of us really tried something different with it and for different reasons. But anyways, that's how it worked out. And we just fed information back and forth, making recommendations, you know, see if there's any flaws that Came up and we'd report back immediately to them.

[00:05:14] We saw something that Could be improved or or ask why it was the way it was that sort of thing

[00:05:20] Craig Macmillan: And we're talking about a completely electric vehicle that's designed for farm use Is that right?

[00:05:25] Duff Bevill: The concept of ford pro so I got my ford hat on right now the concept of ford pro It's a division that was created to really focus on business people with fleets so farming was a connection I don't think they thought of until we reached out to them.

[00:05:42] I think on paper, originally they were looking at the local contractor. You know, the guy was he drove it personally, he was the contractor, or he had a couple carpenters working for him. I think that was probably it initially. Whether they were thinking of farming at all until we reached out to them.

[00:05:58] I don't know. They almost certainly weren't thinking of wine grape growing on the west coast. I think that the whole name Ford Pro, it was really targeted to professional business people who would normally have a pickup truck and how they could adapt using electric vehicle.

[00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: I wasn't familiar with this until this came up for this episode. Is this product line is, is that commercially available at the time that you approached them? Is it available now? Is it still in kind of a testing state?

[00:06:26] Duff Bevill: They weren't available yet, but they were marketing in the summer of for sure the fall, but certainly the summer of 2021.

[00:06:33] I saw ads on TV or Something that would pop up on a website. If you're on Googling something else on a Ford pro for a lightning come up for 10 seconds and disappeared on it. It was a little bit of a tease at that point. But I know the one I got or the one that we have now was number one Oh nine.

[00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: Okay.

[00:06:49] Duff Bevill: I used to kid them asking, tell them I wanted number one, but they wouldn't give it to me. But I got number one oh nine and, they were just beginning to market it you know, shortly after Covid hit. And so they continued to in, in 2021, you know, we were basically all shut down in 2020.

[00:07:05] And 2021 was still pretty disastrous, but they were but all their production facilities were shut down. I mean, they came to a halt just like everybody else. So I think they anticipated getting out there, marketing earlier, making it available earlier. But I think the biggest stumbling block was for, I think a lot of manufacturers, they just didn't have the chips from the big chip manufacturer in Hong Kong.

[00:07:25] And that was what it boiled down to. I think it was true for all the car companies. Yeah.

[00:07:30] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. I remember that.

[00:07:31] Duff Bevill: That was, you had to get that out there. And so they had a marketing plan. They created a division. They had a president of the division identified. The marketing team was in place.

[00:07:38] All the engineers were shifted to the Ford pro team. You know, we got to meet almost all those people, I could, make a phone call to one of the head engineers anytime I wanted to, or send them a text or an email.

[00:07:49] Craig Macmillan: Wow.

[00:07:50] Duff Bevill: It was a real interesting experience.

[00:07:53] Craig Macmillan: And you said you got a van first, is that right?

[00:07:56] Duff Bevill: Yeah, Brooke drove it, yeah.

[00:07:57] Craig Macmillan: That got handed over to you, Brooke. What was that like? Did you have experience with electric vehicles prior to that? Did you have experience with vans prior to that? Were you, Pickup truck person.

[00:08:05] Brooke Parsons: Good questions. Yes. I had never driven a van much prior, especially for viticultural tasks. Before using the e transit, I used a pickup with a trailer that I would load a four wheeler onto the trailer and the e transit took the place of the trailer and the pickup. So I loaded With a ramp. The four wheeler inside.

[00:08:31] Craig Macmillan: Oh, it was a pretty good sized vehicle then.

[00:08:33] Duff Bevill: Yeah. A half ton chassis. It was basically F-150 chassis, but the van, you know?

[00:08:38] Craig Macmillan: Oh like a panel van.

[00:08:40] Duff Bevill: Exactly.

[00:08:41] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. I was thinking like in a condo van.

[00:08:44] This is more like a panel van. You got room to put stuff in. That makes sense. More like a, more like a service truck.

[00:08:48] Brooke Parsons: Like a service truck. So I'd open the back of it to load the four wheeler, but I could also open the side to access my tools and whatnot. It was nice.

[00:08:59] Duff Bevill: They actually outfitted it with shelving. Which would have been perfect if you were like a plumber or an electrician. But with the shelving it made the bay too narrow that we couldn't even fit the four wheeler and ATVs, so we had to take the shelving out so we could use it for that purpose.

[00:09:14] You know, we just substitute trailer and a pickup truck for the van. But how long did you drive that van?

[00:09:20] Brooke Parsons: I drove it for one full season, so May or June through the end of harvest.

[00:09:25] Craig Macmillan: How did you find that? Cause you see that all the time. You see the truck with the trailer, with the ATV in the back.

[00:09:30] How did you find that moving up to a van? Did you find it easier to drive? More difficult? Were you not as confident

[00:09:34] Brooke Parsons: I loved it because I didn't have to worry about a trailer and I didn't have to unload it each night to put it in the barn. So I just closed it all up and it was safe inside the van.

[00:09:46] If I went anywhere. I felt safe to leave the four wheeler locked inside and it wouldn't be tampered with. It was simple enough to bring back to the shop and charge every day and be ready to go the next morning.

[00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: That was gonna be my next question, Brooke. So when you first started with this, did you have any concerns about range?

[00:10:05] Duff Bevill: All of us do.

[00:10:07] Brooke Parsons: Yeah, that was the number one concern was range. For our operation, we farm all in Sonoma County and in a given day, I wasn't driving more than say a hundred miles in the van and it did make a difference in the range, whether or not I had weight in the vehicle or not, or if I use the heat or not.

[00:10:32] I didn't have as much range in the van as the Ford Lightning. And I had to be careful there were a couple of scary moments that I thought I'd have to call Somebody to come get me, but I never ultimately ran out of power

[00:10:48] Craig Macmillan: So with a little practice and a little experience, you knew

[00:10:51] Duff Bevill: If you were to buy a a ford lightning, I don't know about the other electric vehicles in the ford product line But for sure the lightning you would have a choice of, I think, two different battery packs.

[00:11:02] One they refer to, I believe it's just standard. And then they had a second option or an option that would be the extended battery. My understanding at the time, the Ford, pro version of the Ford Lightning came with a standard battery. But when they heard I was, you know, initially I was getting over 300 miles in a charge, I asked them about that and they said let us get back to you.

[00:11:22] Well, a week later they got back and said, oh yeah, that's right, we set yours up, or the three, but for sure mine, the one we still have, with the big battery. They sort of custom built that truck. These three are one offs in that first early run of the heavier battery pack, which to me and I suggested this to him, if the marketing is intended to be to the professional business owner driving a pickup truck, I think Ford pro should just be, you have a standard big battery in it for those reasons.

[00:11:50] They may do that. I have no idea. You're got a professional driver. He's in there going from. The lumber yard to the job site down to the Supply depot for something else. I would just think that's just based on our habits in the farming industry.

[00:12:03] You're shuffling around and it seems to me that'd be a good option, but anyways, It worked out great for me.

[00:12:08] Craig Macmillan: So you've been driving the lightning now for a little while, right?

[00:12:11] Duff Bevill: I drove it for the first two I guess nine months just so I could assess How I might want to buy more of them for , our operation here.

[00:12:19] We buy a couple of pickup trucks every year. I gave , the, pickup to Brooke. So she now drives the pickup cause we turned the van back in.

[00:12:25] Craig Macmillan: I figured that might get kicked back to you so Brooke now you've driven the van now you're driving the truck How do you feel about the truck?

[00:12:31] Brooke Parsons: It handles better than any vehicle. I've ever driven. I love to drive it. I'm very proud of it and I Like it a lot zero complaints

[00:12:41] Craig Macmillan: Even though you have to have a trailer again

[00:12:42] Brooke Parsons: Even though I have to have a trailer again, that's okay.

[00:12:45] Duff Bevill: It was remarkable how it seemed like it was luxurious riding because the electric horsepower, . That thing is so powerful. One of the things, again, my understanding of the engineers, they redesigned the chassis on it.

[00:12:57] So Ford that F one 50 has four wheel, all four corners, independent suspension. Soon as we got to, we put it up on the rack to take a look at the, Technology underneath it. Look at the batteries, you know, you're not touching anything, you're just looking at everything.

[00:13:10] And they designed this beautiful cast aluminum suspension for the back end of that truck. That you'd find in a, I don't know, luxurious European automobile, I think. But it's built heavy to handle all that, torque. You know, oh, it's like, I don't know, 800, horsepower when you push the special button on the dashboard, you know, and it's pretty stunning the performance and that's all torque.

[00:13:31] That's twisting power. And so the engineers had to design into that thing, something capable of handling that much torque is beautiful. But the point is a four wheel independent suspension just rides beautifully cars heavier. So about a thousand pounds heavier, I think because of the batteries. So the comments, the extra weight.

[00:13:47] And a very sophisticated suspension. It's just like a luxury sedan. And you're driving pretty nice.

[00:13:52] Craig Macmillan: And so Brooke, you've been driving this truck now, one of the things that has come up around electric vehicles has been the question of horsepower end of torque.

[00:13:59] How do you feel this truck performs compared to like, let's say a diesel dually,

[00:14:03] Brooke Parsons: It accelerates very quickly, so getting onto the freeway is no problem when it's busy. And the other biggest factor that I notice is braking. You hardly have to brake and it takes a little bit of time to get used to because when you take your foot off of the accelerator, it naturally stops because the engine isn't going.

[00:14:29] And you hardly have to use your brakes, which is very nice.

[00:14:33] Duff Bevill: When I first got it, my wife had a Prius many, many years ago, and she pretty much drove it right off the lot. The way it was set up from the dealer. Well, I discovered that you could switch to regeneration on electric. So when you did let off the throttle, it would break by regenerating electric motors, regenerate electricity, put it back in the battery.

[00:14:52] Well, that's the first thing I did on this lightning. Find that setting I think in the nine months that I drove it I told the guys at Ford I said, I'll bet you I didn't touch the brakes ten times in those nine months

[00:15:03] Brooke Parsons: but to answer your question I've only pulled light things behind it and So I haven't really put it to the test in that way.

[00:15:13] Craig Macmillan: I was doing a little research on this and I understand that there's like a data collection and management component to this that's attractive.

[00:15:19] What can you tell me about that? Have you used that feature? It can tell you about your fleet, I guess?

[00:15:24] Duff Bevill: Aside from electric vehicles Ford was really interested in us, Using and learning to use, and hearing back from us, their telematics. That's what they call it, Ford Telematics.

[00:15:37] And I think it was initially launched with the Ford Pro division, where you sign up every vehicle in your fleet. We've got like 20 Ford pickup trucks, something like that. If you go back all the way, I want to say like to 2014.

[00:15:49] Prior to that, I'm not sure, but for sure, like 2014, the electronics in those vehicles have the capability of just hooking up to the telematic system. The Ford is promoting, and if you get it into your fleet and get your, your vehicles in entered in your fleet, you can monitor them. Of course, like GPS, that's what everybody's doing nowadays, but much more than that, your shop manager could know, have a better use of knowing when it's time for an oil change, you know, we just do it.

[00:16:14] We track that kind of stuff, hard copy paper, put a sticker on the dashboard and the drivers relay to us when the mileage number comes up, they notify the shop manager and we schedule for a service. Typically the oil filter change and then in general inspection we inspect the brakes and all that kind of stuff.

[00:16:31] With the telematics they have the potential setting up where you could punch in a timeline that you wanted either by the calendar. Like every 12 months on the vehicles that we don't run very much. We do a major inspection every 12 months. And then the ones that actually have the mileage being for somewhere between five and 7, 000 miles, something like that.

[00:16:50] Depends on the vehicle. Depends on the tractor or it's a pickup truck or a full size class eight diesel truck. And so all that stuff is available. And one of the pluses and this happened to us. It was a perfect, we've used this as an example. Typically in modern vehicles, the components that fail first are the sensors that measure your NOX exhaust pipes.

[00:17:11] Those are the ones that are going bad. Probably because of the heat cycle they go through because of their exhaust pipes, right? So about anywhere between 40, 000 and 60, 000 miles, those are the devices that fail. So one of our foremen called the shop, our shop manager, and said check engine light came on.

[00:17:27] I guess he got the code through telematics, identified it as an oxygen sensor, ordered the part. The truck never came back to the shop. It's still out on the job site. We're supposed to be with the crew. He gets the parts ordered. The delivery guys bring the part to the shop that day. And it's interesting how it works is that is the analysis is it is 90 percent likely it's your oxygen sensor. They come up and then when the guy back that night, they bring it right into the shop and change that sensor. At the end of the day, confirmed that that was the part that needed to be replaced.

[00:18:00] The next day was back on the job site, all repaired. The only other way around that would have been. Bring it back to the shop. Get your, your analysis device on it, you know, on the onboard computer or mechanic drives out to the job site, does the same thing at the job site.

[00:18:16] And then it comes back or it comes out, orders the parts on a telephone or something like that. So it's saves time. There's no doubt about it. And there's a lot more to, manage a lot of the of systems we have already in place Ford doing the same thing with their telematics.

[00:18:28] So some of the things Didn't have any added value because we already have that kind of technology, but they were expanding a lot of that technology for fleet management. So that's a real plus. And they were constantly tweaking that in making improvements on the usability of it and that sort of thing.

[00:18:44] So that was a big deal. That was a big one.

[00:18:47] Craig Macmillan: The fleet management aspect of having an electric vehicle like this with this kind of a technology going into the future could be huge for a farm, could be huge for a management company like yourself that has properties all over the place. That kind of remote diagnostic is really amazing.

[00:18:59] The idea of like, Hey, the light's on. Okay, I'll fix it tonight. No problem.

[00:19:03] Duff Bevill: Well, the other big plus is when we put that lightning up on the rack, just to take a look at it, you know, we're just kind of noodling through the, , there's no oil to change in an engine. We found one plug access to a transmission on it.

[00:19:18] But even the owner's manual says don't touch any of that kind of stuff. You know, they can be serviced, but there's no schedule for servicing. The disc brakes, I don't think you'd ever If you use the vehicle to its maximum value, I don't think you'd ever put brakes in it. There's no transmission transitions made up of hundreds and hundreds of parts. It's not electric motors or a simple, simple mechanical device and the internal combustion engine has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of parts that aren't there. So it has the potential of being over the ownership timeline of it.

[00:19:52] A lot less cost per mile. Even when you, you calculate in your Cost of electricity charge, but we have here and we've got solar panels here too. We already had installed From a number of years ago So we've got sort of that added advantage whether the electric vehicle made a little bit even more sense because we're already kind of using discounted Power

[00:20:11] Craig Macmillan: that was going to be my next question. i'm assuming your solar is connected to the grid So it's an offset so you're not islanded, but you still have the, you're generating power on your own.

[00:20:20] So you've got onsite power generation to power your fleet to a degree. That's brilliant. Yeah, that's fantastic. I remember years ago people were complaining about diesel engines and friends of mine were like, well, if you build us a solar truck, I'll freaking drive it. I got no problem with that.

[00:20:33] Well, here we are. What do you know? It's 30 years later, we have solar trucks, in effect. There has to have been some obstacles to adopting this. Were there some roadblocks or some things you had to learn along the way before you really felt like you were totally comfortable?

[00:20:46] Duff Bevill: Well, like I said, I was familiar with a hybrid.

[00:20:49] I still drive a hybrid. I drive a hybrid Ford pickup truck now. We had to get a charging station installed. Here at the office and then, you know, there's a decision. Do I do it at home or do the office? I wanted to hear at the office because that's where the fleet is parked and I had to think through, you know, get the one installed and how many more can I have and how many trucks will it eventually service without a major infrastructure redesign.

[00:21:11] So we've got that one put in and I, in the process, I had the electrician who was recommended to us. I had him install extra conduits underground. That are dummy right now. I assume we'll, we'll, extend for more pickup trucks.

[00:21:25] That was really the big obstacle. And then that's why I drove it because I want to know firsthand exactly what I was up against. I accomplished what I wanted. I want to learn as much as I could about it. Being there, having access to the Ford people, especially the engineers. Was on the fast track of having a better understanding.

[00:21:40] I got to talk to the guys who actually, one guy designed the grill, the other guy designed the dashboard. I mean, I was talking to those,

[00:21:45] Craig Macmillan: you had access. Yeah. That's, that's pretty amazing. Brooke, what was your learning curve? Like you talked about a couple of things, but were there obstacles that you felt you kind of ran across that you had to figure out, or that could be improvements

[00:21:56] Brooke Parsons: just forming the habit of charging.

[00:21:57] One time I forgot and. I was responsible for getting people someplace in the morning and it made me nervous. But you do that once or twice and you don't forget. So that was the real only obstacle. When traveling a longer distance, I did have to learn how to find charging stations that work well, are compatible with the lightning.

[00:22:25] And Ford is making advances in that area, now partnered with Tesla to use their system. And so that will only improve. But really it's around learning how to use the logistics of electric charging.

[00:22:44] Craig Macmillan: Right. And that's true for electric charging. For all of that. And you're right. I think a little bit of practice.

[00:22:49] Most of the folks that I know with electric vehicles, they're scared at first, and then they kind of figure it out. Now that you've had a chance to work with this, I think I already know the answer to this question. I mean, there's a question for both of you. When you were looking to your crystal ball, how do you see this technology being applied in the future?

[00:23:03] Duff Bevill: Think there's a place for it. I'm not so sure that one type of energy source is going to be the, solution for everything. I think practically, I think it's going to be some kind of a combination of energy sources and I don't discount nuclear.

[00:23:14] There's probably a place for everything, certainly in a transition period that that'll work best for all. Electrician put in the the charging station for us. He said, , if everybody's gonna go electric, the package must be solar panels, um, battery storage, either a large battery storage in a community setting, you know, like in a neighborhood or a small city size.

[00:23:37] Or you'll have battery storage areas that is appropriate, like maybe at our farm shop. Because we're commercial, we would be a candidate for battery storage, at least for our operation. So you'd have a solution for, you know, we're back to Sonoma County weather conditions again for the first time in quite a few years.

[00:23:55] I mean, it's overcast and rainy a lot of days out of the year. If you have solar panels, they're just not going to be working as efficiently and you still have to go to work every day and get your people to work. If you are relying. Let's say exclusively on electric, you've got to have something other than solar panel on the roof

[00:24:09] so windmill, solar panels, battery storage, there's some combination of multiple technologies. I just think that's sort of realistic of what it is. Do you want 95 percent of it to be coal? No, none of us do, you know, cause we all know the story there, but is, is there a place for coal for 10 percent of it?

[00:24:25] 15 percent of it. Don't know. I have no idea. It's good. I mean, we liked it. It's you know, just, we're not relying on it entirely right now, but we'll phase into it as time goes on.

[00:24:33] Craig Macmillan: Well, that was going to be, and and maybe Brookie also can kind of speak to this. I mean, is there a time when there isn't going to be a diesel truck on the farm?

[00:24:40] Duff Bevill: We're more concerned about diesel tractors. You know, the evolution went from, steam, you know, the early 1900s. The steam to, and then, you know, both in automobiles and, and on, on the farm, the competition was steam or gasoline because diesel wasn't invented yet.

[00:24:58] diesel engine wasn't invented until the 1920s. So turn of the century, 19th and 20th century, it was a competition between steam and gasoline, gasoline won. So gasoline surge forward all the way into the 1930s and with a few exceptions and in the 1940s, but by the 1950s. There was a clear transition that diesel was much, much more efficient, you know, pound for pound and horsepower for horsepower.

[00:25:24] I can't even think of where you could buy a gasoline tractor once you got in the 1970s. I'm sure you could still, but it represented a really small percentage. And by the 80s and 90s, it's all diesel.down to almost lawnmower size you can get it John Deere ride along more, you probably have a choice between gasoline and and diesel power to mow the golf course,

[00:25:42] that's actually transitioning to electric now too, you know, those, those small ones will plug it in and then mow for two hours, we're not even in the transition part of that story yet.

[00:25:52] There's a couple, manufacturers that have electric tractors the, inconvenience of them is really insurmountable right now, but changing batteries at lunchtime in your barn and that kind of stuff, tough. That's, tough technology.

[00:26:05] Craig Macmillan: It's still new. Yeah, this is still new. We're still finding our way there. I've talked to people about that topic quite a bit. It'll get better. Yeah, we'll see where it goes. Hey, Brooke, what is one thing that you'd recommend to listeners if they're thinking about adopting electric vehicles for the farm?

[00:26:20] Brooke Parsons: Would say be open to trying new things. It expands your mind and. It allows opportunity that would not be there otherwise. And be okay with mistakes. That's how we learn.

[00:26:37] Craig Macmillan: That's great advice. I think that's really, really good. Where can people find out more about you at Beville Vineyard Management?

[00:26:43] Duff Bevill: Look at our website BevillVineyard.Com Get you right to the, right to the website.

[00:26:47] Craig Macmillan: Well, I want, to both for being here. Thanks, Duff, and thanks, Brooke, for being here.

[00:26:51] Duff Bevill: Well, thank you for reaching out to us.

[00:26:53] Brooke Parsons: You're welcome. Thank you.

[00:26:55] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Valent. Bio-sciences a leader in biostimulants constantly delivering, cutting edge innovation to maximize their customers yields and ROI.

[00:27:14] Their are 40 plus products span the three bio stimulant brands providing solutions for every acre. Make sure you check out the show notes. For links to Bevill vineyard management. Articles on the Ford Pro Pilot project and sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes. 120 autonomous drone vineyard spring. 219 intelligent sprayers to improve fungicide applications and save money. And 225 California's ban on autonomous tractors.

[00:27:44] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. That helps us reach more listeners. Like you, you can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org / podcast, and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org.

[00:28:00] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.

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[00:00:00] By acting environmentally and socially responsible today, we get future generations, a healthy place to call home. The actions that you as an individual take, have an impact.

[00:00:11] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing.

[00:00:29] So you can show your customers that you share their values.

[00:00:33] The summer months, bring more staff and guests into tasting rooms across the country. Invite your whole team to join in your brand sustainability efforts. When you practice these five sustainable tasting room habits. Tip one is to conserve. Simple actions like completely shutting off water faucets after use and notifying management of leaks help conserve this limited resource. Turning lights and appliances off when not in use reduces electricity. Consumption.

[00:01:02] Although the commercial end use energy sector uses the smallest amount of energy of the four sectors, which include transportation, industrial, residential, and commercial. The majority of the energy used comes from fossil fuels, small efforts in the workplace, reduce reliance on non-renewable energy. Tip two is to recycle responsibly.

[00:01:24] We know the importance of recycling, but when heading to the bin with recyclables in hand, it's easy to forget the nuances. Some items can be recycled together, like cardboard paper and some plastics and metal. Glass is, usually recycled separately. And sometimes that's separated by color. It may be tempting to line up a recycle bin with a plastic bag. But it can actually be detrimental to your good efforts.

[00:01:48] Plastic bags can clog recycling machinery. Contaminate other recyclable materials and potentially lead to recyclable material ending up at the landfill. Instead, keep those items loose or use a paper or reusable bag to line the can. Your wine bottle corks can also be recycled and turned into many useful items.

[00:02:08] Start a collection container and send it off to be repurposed.

[00:02:12] Re cork has a map of drop off locations that makes it easy to find a cork recycling partner near you. Consider teaming up with neighboring tasting rooms to send your corks together. Tip three is to reduce and reuse. Upgrade to glass and metal dishes in the break room to cut down. On single use plastics, Sanitize and reuse water bottles for serving water. These small changes can drastically reduce your weekly waste. Tip four is to source locally. Check out local artists and small businesses for crafts, snacks, and knickknacks to offer for sale in your tasting room. This is a great way to introduce your guests to local talent and support your community. And tip five is to bike or carpool to work.

[00:02:58] There are several alternative transportation options available today For eco-conscious commuters. Trips can be shared by carpooling or using public transportation to reduce the number of cars on the road. Riding a bike e-bike skateboard or one wheel has The added bonus of getting your blood pumping.

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[00:03:19] Your customers, how your brand protects natural and human resources with the sustainable story program. This simple, yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal message. And it just got better with the new online course. Go to the notes. Click on the link titled to tell your sustainable story, to sign up and start writing yours today. Until next time, this is sustainable.

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Farmers and ranchers have some of the highest suicide rates of all United States occupations. Misty Oebel, Health and Farm Stress Extension Educator at Michigan State University works with a team to help farmworkers manage depression and anxiety. Their educational initiatives, outreach, and teletherapy give farmworkers who often live in remote areas access to help without a commute or social stigma. Misty highlights the importance of community support, recognizing signs of stress, and maintaining a resilient mindset through learned optimism. She reminds listeners that the farmer is the most important asset on the farm.

Resources: * Agriservice professionals play important role in suicide prevention * How to cultivate a productive mindset * Michigan State University Extension – Managing Farm Stress * Resilient Minds: Managing Stress on the Farm * Youth farm stress

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript [00:00:05] Beth Vukmanic: Of all occupations in the United States, farmers and ranchers have some of the highest suicide rates. Welcome to sustainable winegrowing with vineyard team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. Since 1994, we have brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years.

In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with a long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with Misty Oebel. Health and farm stress extension educator at Michigan state university. Misty works with a team to help farm workers manage depression and anxiety. Their educational initiatives, outreach and teletherapy, give farm workers who often live in remote areas.

Access to help without a commute or social stigma. Misty highlights the importance of community support, recognizing signs of stress and maintaining a resilient mindset through learned optimism. She reminds listeners that the farmer is the most important asset on the farm. Before we get into the interview, I wanted to share a message from Lupita, a vineyard team.

Juan Nevarez is Memorial scholar. She says my parents left Mexico to give my siblings and me a better future. I want to make them proud by finishing school and pursuing my dream of becoming a pediatrician and the Salinas valley so that I can give back to my community.

We know that higher education is important to many students, but paying for college could be challenging.

This unique program provides financial and support services to the children of California's vineyard and winery workers. So they can earn a higher degree. You can help a student like Lupita, make their dreams come true by making a gift. By visiting vineyard team.org/scholarship. Or look for the link in our show notes. Now let's listen in.

[00:02:14] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Misty Oebel. She is a health and farm stress extension educator with Michigan state university extension. Thanks for being on the podcast.

[00:02:23] Misty Oebel: Well, so much for having me.

[00:02:25] Craig Macmillan: And today we're going to talk about a concept called farm stress. When I first heard the term farm stress, I was thinking of farms that were stressed, you know, land that had been overworked or was in decline and that kind of thing, cause that's a lot of the stuff that I talk about and study, but that's not what we're talking about in this context.

What does farm stress mean in your world?

[00:02:45] Misty Oebel: So in my world, I'm focused on behavioral health. I look at providing education about stress, particularly chronic stress and its impact on the agricultural community. So I think it might be more accurate if we went by the term of like farmer stress or stress on the farm, but that's not the way it's titled.

So farm stress is what we go by.

[00:03:05] Craig Macmillan: One of the things that brought your project to our attention, and it's really extensive. MSU Extension is doing a lot of work in this area. It's really impressive, and we'll hear some more about that. Suicide rates are one of the highest in the occupations of farming and ranching of any occupations in the United States, actually.

Which a lot of people might be surprised to find out. And related to that, there's also very high incidence of Depression and or at least meeting the criteria for depression and for generalized anxiety disorder. And, you know, by these, I want to make sure that we're clear that, you know, we're not talking about simply being like, Oh, I'm sad.

Oh, I'm depressed, but actually things that impact your ability to function, your actual mental illness conditions

[00:03:45] Misty Oebel: Right. That's exactly right. When we're looking at these numbers a lot of we're studying it through self report. So it's asking questions. It's not asking a question like, do you feel depressed? It's asking a question like, are you having problems with your appetite? How is your sleep changed? How are your relationships with other people?

Are you experiencing irritability on a regular basis? Those are the kinds of questions that they ask. And then those are the criteria that they're looking at when they're saying agricultural workers are you know, we're finding that about 60 percent of the people that are participating in these studies are meeting the criteria for.

depression, about 55 percent for generalized anxiety disorders. So this is significant because that does impact your ability to function.

[00:04:29] Craig Macmillan: And are also risk factor for things like suicide and substance abuse.

[00:04:34] Misty Oebel: And that's exactly right. We see much higher rates of suicide rates amongst agricultural workers than other occupations. We do see, really high substance use rates as well. Alcoholism we see is reported with heavy use for alcohol amongst farmers is about 38 to 50 percent of farmers in America, which is pretty significant.

The other issue we see is farming or agricultural workers also have the highest rate of stress related death. due to disease. So that's a very major concern for us.

[00:05:05] Craig Macmillan: It's a major public health health issue. Issue around this. When you said you were , asking these questions, getting this, this data, how is this data being collected? How do we even find out, this is an issue?

[00:05:15] Misty Oebel: There's a preliminary study that's coming out of Illinois State University. It's being done by Rudolfi and Berg. They're the ones that are leading a lot of the information on this. And so there's the study that I'm going to quote most because those the numbers that are most they're the most relevant to me because I do work in the Midwest.

And so what we're looking at is we're just when we start to see those statistics like the high suicide rates, the high rates of death by stress related disease we start to see the amount of issues we're having with alcohol and opioids and even we're seeing some stimulant use. increase at this point.

Those are all things that start to trigger us to do a lot of research and try and figure out what this impact is and why it's happening.

[00:05:52] Craig Macmillan: And I'm guessing that is where the MSU extension managing farms for stress program came from.

[00:05:58] Misty Oebel: Yes, there was a significant need. The USDA was asking for people to participate in and start providing education and support for farmers because we were noticing that there were some pretty significant issues within the community.

[00:06:12] Craig Macmillan: This is one of those things that's true for a lot of areas of public health. How do you. Get to the populations that need the help because people don't always come forward looking for help or there the demand there? People are having issues and they're coming looking for help. What's the what's the the interface?

between the farm stress program and the target population

[00:06:35] Misty Oebel: Sure. So one of the things that we're doing through our program, we spend as much time as possible in rooms with growers. Speaking at a lot of conferences, speaking at a lot of meetings. We spend as much time as possible, putting our faces out there and trying to build that rapport.

And I have yet to speak in front of a group of people on a farm stress and not have people waiting in the wings afterwards to talk to me about that. So there is some face to face connection there. Sure. We also have people who hear about us through like news or hear a podcast or read an article and then they go looking for our website and then they connect with staff that way where they're reaching out to us and saying, I might need a little bit more help.

Can you help me with this? So that's pretty common. We also receive phone calls and emails from people all the time who say, Hey, my veterinarian said I should reach out to you or my accountant or, you know, my Miller, it's these people who they have professional established relationships with who are saying there's something that's not right.

right? There's something going on here and you need to talk to somebody about it. And so we connect with people that way. But I would say quite honestly, the number one way that we are connecting with people is we get an email or a phone call from someone who loves a farmer. So it's a parent or a spouse or a sibling who says, you know, my, sibling, he has this farm, he's been working on it for a long time.

He's really, really depressed and he's not doing anything about it. And we're getting really, really worried about him. So there's a lot of different ways that we come in contact with these farmers. I would say probably the number one way is because somebody noticed something was going on and then they connected them with the appropriate resources at that point.

[00:08:11] Craig Macmillan: And that's an important point the role of community and family and our social networks The old see something say something Sometimes it can be hard to do when it's a loved one and probably the most important to do when it's a loved one.

[00:08:21] Misty Oebel: I agree with that. Just this year alone, I've talked with six different families as they're surviving the loss of a loved one to suicide. And one of the things that keeps coming up is I noticed something was going on, but I didn't want them to be mad at me. I didn't want them to be upset.

I didn't want to hurt their feelings. And it's one of those things that I think we would all rather have somebody be upset with us than to lose that person. And so that's really important. If you see something, say something, notice something, refer them to somebody. It's also really important to start learning about how we can communicate.

You know, how to ask open ended questions, how to ask difficult questions and how to practice those active listening skills so that when somebody is answering the questions, you're hearing what they're saying and you're not just waiting for that opportunity to start talking again. Those are all really important.

There's trainings that we can offer through MSU Extension. There's an open course that's available on our website. It's called Rural Resilience. It's open to the community and it's free and it's online. So it's, it's really useful, but it's literally trained to teach you how to recognize signs of stress in yourself and how to manage that stress, but then how to recognize signs of stress in other people and then how to communicate with them and have positive communication that could be helpful.

[00:09:32] Craig Macmillan: So you mentioned this website. We just talked about how you kind of get in contact with the population. What are some of the other methods that you folks are employing around this to get people help? What is the kind of help that you can provide?

[00:09:42] Misty Oebel: Some things that I think are really useful, again, that referral process is really important to us. So if you know about us and then you see somebody that you care about is struggling, please let us know. Through MSU Extension, we offer a lot of other programs that aren't necessarily related to farm stress.

So it's not unusual for us to talk to like a field crops educator or a fruit crop educator, and they're coming to us and they're saying, Hey, I'm working with this farmer. And we're seeing these behaviors and I'm talking to them and I'm trying to get them to talk to you. That's pretty common as well. So those are all resources we have available.

We offer through the website, we offer a lot of things. And I always tell people if you're interested in the Farm Stress and you want to know more about our program, if you go to our website, and it's usually pretty easy if you type in like MSU Farm Stress. we're usually the first result. We come up pretty quick.

And that website has everything. It has articles we've written. It has educational materials. It has those programs like the training materials available as well, that online training. And then it also has a form that you can fill out for our teletherapy program, which is also really beneficial.

[00:10:43] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, so I was just gonna ask about that. So you are able to put people or connect people to talk therapy services either tell therapy or face to face.

[00:10:51] Misty Oebel: Yeah, it's actually, it's one of the programs we're really proud of. We have this opportunity to provide it to people who are connected to the agricultural community. And it helps because there's a lot of barriers within the farming community to getting, you know, mental health services. You know, most farming is done in rural communities.

So we know rural communities have less access to medical services, let alone behavioral health services. We know that then if somebody is interested in going to like counseling, it's going to take them longer to travel to a therapist. And then they're going to sit there and they're going to come back.

There's also some stigmas attached still to like mental health issues within rural communities. So you know, when you talk to a farmer and they say, you know, I just don't want them to see my truck sitting in that parking lot. I'm just really concerned about that. I don't want people to think something's going on.

And so teletherapy is a resource then that it removes those barriers for them. You can do it from the comfort of your own home on a laptop or a smartphone. They use cameras, so you're still able to see the person. You're able to have a conversation and talk with them.

It's completely confidential. And then it's a really great resource then because then It removes the barriers and makes it accessible to everybody. The other piece of that is sometimes one of the barriers is cost. That can be really prohibitive for people, especially farmers who are independently, you know, they work for themselves, so they're not always insured, you know, so this can be a problem.

And so MSU extension has the availability. We actually provide for and cover the costs for any agriculture workers within the state of Michigan. At this point, our funding is limited, but we're able to then cover the cost of that. So there's no cost to the farmer either.

[00:12:23] Craig Macmillan: How many folks are you getting in contact with? How many folks are taking advantage of this?

[00:12:27] Misty Oebel: At the moment, I don't have the numbers. That would be something my program lead would have. I just refer people. It is something that we refer people on a pretty regular basis, probably one to two a week we make a referral or we talk to somebody about sometimes more. So I think that that's a pretty good estimate that we are definitely reaching people this way.

[00:12:45] Craig Macmillan: And that actually just reminded me of something else. So is this referring folks to behavioral health professionals that are outside of the MSU system. Is this, is this program funneling folks to other existing folks or is this counselors and therapists and prescribers inside the MSU system?

[00:13:02] Misty Oebel: We work with partners. This is one of the things we wanted to do. Like for example, I have a background in counseling psychology. Our program lead has a background in psychology as well. We have the backgrounds in it, but we don't want to be doing therapy because that takes us away from that education piece.

So we refer to licensed therapists and it's been really good so far. I think it's been a really great program. We try to look for therapists that have a background in agriculture as well. We recognize the subculture of farming is unique, and we don't want to send them to people who are not going to understand where they're coming from.

We want to make sure that there's that background there already.

[00:13:35] Craig Macmillan: In your experience so far can you describe what some of the aspects of a agricultural subculture are like? Because I agree with you. I think there's very much some commonalities. And there's a cultural component that's different than other aspects of American life. What are some of the things that you've seen and what are some of the barriers that come from that?

[00:13:57] Misty Oebel: Oh, goodness. Yeah, there's a lot. There are things that are so unique to farming that you don't see literally in any other profession. You rarely see people who identify so much with their work as growers and farmers. People who, you know, It's so inherently ingrained into who they are. It's becomes part of their identity.

I could use an example. It's kind of how I came into the firm stress work. My dad grew up on a farm and, you know, just a little farm had six brothers and sisters, parents. They worked this farm and his father passed away when he was 17 years old. And within a couple of years, they realized that without.

Their father, they really couldn't continue the operation. They started selling equipment, selling animals and leasing the farmland. And when I asked my dad about it, when I was a kid and was asking questions about what it was like when he grew up, one of the things he said that's always stuck with me is he said, you know, it was really strange to be a farm kid without a farm.

Even after the farm was gone, he's still so identified with that aspect of his identity that it just. never occurred to him that you're not really a farm kid without a farm mate. He still was. And so that's very unique to farming. There's a legacy aspect of farming that we don't see in every other profession as well.

There is an understanding that this is something that we want to continue to go on. And we passed into the family. So kids are growing up knowing there's that expectation that, that This is going to be passed on and we will be taking this over. So there's that legacy aspect of farming. There's the idea that you're in a rural community, so you have fewer neighbors than people in urban areas.

So sometimes that can mean that you have really strong community nets, but other times it can mean that you feel really isolated as well. As we're entering a more modern area and we're seeing less individual farmers. I want to say it that way.

We're seeing bigger operations, less small farms that can also feel really isolating for farmers because less people understand what they're going through, less people are able to relate to them on that level. There's so many things that are so unique to this subculture. And and they're also just so, so much, when we say salt of the earth, we're literally talking about farmers.

They are the people who are out there day to day. They feed us. They're taking care of the land, and they take such pride in their work, and they're so conscientious about that work. I think that's really important to recognize. They're a completely different culture of people, and so I think it's really important.

It's really valuable that this work exists just for the fact that this is a culture we can't lose in our country.

[00:16:19] Craig Macmillan: Absolutely. And you know, having programs that say, Hey, we we understand you and where you're coming from, I think might help a lot. And I was very impressed by what I've seen online. It's very welcoming the way that it's presented. It can be very daunting to try to reach out for something that you've just assumed no one's going to understand, right?

And if you kind of get the sense that there are people there for you who understand who you are and where you're coming from, I think that definitely helps. There are a couple of things that I noticed that I thought were really cool. One thing is the idea of resiliency. A resilient mindset and a productive mindset are two things you have.

Materials about developing and maintaining and etc. Can you tell me about those two ideas? I just think that's just so interesting

[00:17:03] Misty Oebel: I'm gonna argue, and I'm always gonna argue this, that a resilient mindset is a productive mindset, because a resilient mindset I think we could define it, if we're going to define it just at its simplest terms, it's, it's learned optimism. I think there's already innate optimism when we're talking about agriculture anyway, because otherwise, how do you face a drought one year and then go back and do the same thing the next year?

You have to be optimistic. I mean, you just have to, it's innate. But I think that a resilient mindset is that learned optimism, which is we're able to accept that, you know what, things don't always go the way we want them to. Things often happen that we did not hope for. We face uncontrollable circumstances all the time, especially in farming, when you're dealing with weather or, you know, pests, things like that.

So we have to be able to accept when things aren't going well and still be able to move forward with the idea that things are gonna be okay, even though things aren't going well. Now they're gonna be okay and we're gonna get through it. I've survived everything up to this point. I'm gonna survive this.

I'm gonna go on to the next thing, and it might look different, but it could still be good. And I think that's that resilient mindset that we talk about. And there's so many benefits of a resilient mindset. You know it decreases depression and anxiety. We see better physical health because our cortisol and adrenaline levels, those stress hormones are lower.

We also see again that ability to move forward and to be adaptive and to be more focused on problem solving than getting stuck on just what the problem is. So that resilient mindset, I always argue this resiliency is is productive. If you're not resilient, you're going to struggle and you're going to get stuck.

And then you're not going to be very productive.

[00:18:42] Craig Macmillan: I'm gonna call on you as a practitioner now? What are some examples of techniques or tools or things that I can that I can do that. They will help promote this in myself

[00:18:51] Misty Oebel: The two most important aspects in resiliency is making sure you have that community. So making sure you're building a community, you're finding people who support you, who understand you and who care about you. That's the number one thing that is actually the most influential factor we have found in resiliency and whether somebody is going to bounce back from a difficult situation.

Community social connection. We actually find isolation is really, really dangerous. It increases depression and anxiety, it increases cardiovascular issues, and suicidal ideation goes up when people feel lonely. So, community is number one. The second thing I always argue is really focusing on that emotional health piece.

And we can do that in a lot of different ways. But one of the simplest ways is to start practicing those mindfulness techniques. And sometimes when I say that people are like, Oh, that's that hippie, dippy stuff. And I don't want to do that. You know but what we're really talking about there, did they just put a name to it?

It's just being engaged. It's just being present in your moment. Cause sometimes we get into the habit of. I'm stressed and I've got a lot to do and we get into this autopilot mode and we just keep working and we plug away at it and we feel really good because we just keep going. But when we're doing that, we also have to ignore a lot of other things that are going on and we're not really aware of what's happening.

So practicing mindfulness. Because practicing mindfulness allows us to be engaged enough to be aware of what's going well so we can be grateful. Gratefulness is really great for you know, resiliency. The other thing that it does is it allows us to notice when things aren't going well, and that allows us to do that problem solving and be like, okay, what can I fix?

And then if something can't be fixed, okay, I can accept this can't be fixed, it's out of my control. And that's also really important for resiliency. And then that third piece to when we're really aware of what our moment is like it allows us to be aware of our emotions and to recognize them as they're happening and to process them instead of doing the thing where we like are just shoving those emotions down because I'm busy.

So I'm going to shove it down and then I'm going to keep working and then another emotion flies in and you know what? I don't want to deal with that right now either. So I'm going to shove that down too until we blow up because we have just this overwhelming flood of emotions we've been ignoring. And so when we're practicing mindfulness, it allows us to process them as they're happening and they never get to that huge overwhelming stage.

And we can practice mindfulness in a lot of really simple ways. It's not complicated. It's not something that you have to go through a class or something to learn how to do. You know, it's a journaling. I'm going to sit down every night and write down what went well today and what didn't. It is meditation or prayer breathing exercises, really, really simple breathing exercises that just make you pause.

and stop and notice what is happening around you and in your body. That's it.

[00:21:32] Craig Macmillan: And I'm guessing You're communicating these ideas in various forms. I mean, there must be print form, there must be video form, there must be face to face form. I mean, are you doing clinics, trainings, newsletters? What are all the different avenues that you're using to communicate these very, very, very practical, very specific things?

What routes are you using to get those to people ?

[00:21:53] Misty Oebel: Like I said before, if there is a room with growers in it, we try to be in that room. We, we speak at every opportunity that we possibly can because we do want to make sure the message is getting out. We participate in podcasts. We write articles, we write a lot of articles. We are actually in the process of re updating a lot of our program materials right now to make sure they're all fresh and all the information is new and current.

So we do that. Those are all available online. The training programs that are available online. We talk to families who are in the middle of it. And so we talk to people on the phone. It's not unusual for us to spend an afternoon at a farmer's kitchen table. talking with them and figuring out what their next steps are.

Literally any avenue. So we have all of these print materials that are available, a lot of stuff available through our website, but we are also people who are available. Should there be a need for that as well?

[00:22:43] Craig Macmillan: Something else that I noticed that I thought was great is, you know, obviously farm stress doesn't just affect the adults that are involved. It also affects youth. And like you talked about this generationality aspect and how important it is. Just like you said, farm kid without a farm. It's farm kid.

You know, that's part of the kid. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how that's fit into your program?

[00:23:02] Misty Oebel: Yeah. That same study that I was talking about earlier by Rodolphe and Berg, as those numbers have come out, they also did study on farm youth. And what they found is that the numbers for depression are the same. About 60 percent of farm youth meet the criteria for general depression. We see slightly lower on generalized anxiety, it's about 45%. The number that I find really interesting, I want to know more about, is 62 percent are reporting the, the diagnostic criteria for separation anxiety, which is very, very interesting. Yeah, that one kind of throws me. I don't know where that's coming from, but it's really interesting. And I'd like to know more about that one.

What this tells us is that as parents and adults, we're not doing as good as we think we are and hiding how we're doing. It tells me we're not doing as good as we think we are in hiding, you know, when stress is occurring, when we're depressed, when we're anxious. Kids are pretty intuitive and they pick up on that.

I know my kids have called me out on stuff like that before and like you weren't hiding it as well as you think you were. So that happens. I think there's also when we go back to it, there's that legacy aspect of it where there's an understanding that if this farm is going to continue, somebody is going to step up, somebody is going to take over it.

And so you see really young kids who start assuming the responsibility of the problems. well before they really need to do so. So that is absolutely impacting them as well. I think it makes it really, really, really important for parents to be paying attention for those signs of stress in their kids as well as in signs for themselves and their neighbors.

They need to be paying attention. Are they showing mood changes? You know, are they suddenly really irritable? Are they having problems sleeping? Am I seeing differences in their appetites? Are they shutting down? Are we not talking as much as we used to talk?

There's a lot of things that we need to pay attention to when it comes to our kids just to make sure that they're okay and so that we're able to connect them with the support that they need earlier rather than later.

[00:24:53] Craig Macmillan: Is there one thing, just one piece of advice or one observation that you would recommend to our listeners around this topic?

[00:24:59] Misty Oebel: Can I go with two? Is that ok?

[00:25:01] Craig Macmillan: Two is great, do two.

[00:25:02] Misty Oebel: Okay. One of the first things I want to come back to. It's something that we've talked about a few different times. Is this idea of the generational aspect and the legacy piece? Because that is absolutely a barrier in farmers in, seeking behavioral health support.

There is kind of this idea of like, well, my dad was a farmer and he never saw a therapist and my grandpa was a farmer and he never saw a therapist. So is there something wrong with me now if I need additional support? And what we kind of forget is that depression and anxiety are not new. And if you're facing it, your dad probably had it too.

Your grandpa probably had it too, but they were struggling silently and never got the support that they needed. And I think that when we're looking at generational stuff, we always try to do it a little bit better with each generation. We want the farm to be a little bit bigger, a little bit cleaner.

We want to make sure that our processes are a little bit smoother. With each generation, it gets a little better and we do the same thing with parenting. You know, we want to be a slightly better parent to our kids than our parents were to us, and we hope that they do the same thing with their Children.

So I think that makes it really important that we recognize that just because past generations weren't receiving help, that doesn't mean we shouldn't receive help. It actually makes it more important because we're trying to prioritize that, and we're trying to make those changes in the family. So that's the number one thing I can think of.

And then the other thing, this is something I tell farmers all the time is the growers and the farmers that I know are very, very conscientious when it comes to caring for their land. And their animals and their crops and buildings and equipment, and they invest a lot of time and money into the maintenance of all of those things, because their assets but I'm always going to argue that the farmer is the most important asset in any farm.

And so I really feel very strongly that it's important that we prioritize caring for ourselves and we recognize that self care is not selfish. It's very important. If you're the most important asset on your farm, you've got to make sure that you're taking care of yourself.

[00:27:01] Craig Macmillan: I think that is a fantastic observation. Absolutely. Where can people find out more about you and more about the Farm Stress Management Program?

[00:27:09] Misty Oebel: I'm always going to recommend you go to our website. Not only do we have all of those great resources, but you can connect with staff through that website. We have all of our pictures on there. I'm on there. Dr. Remington Rice is our program lead. He is phenomenal. He has his information even in multiple places on the site.

So please reach out to us if you have any questions, thoughts, concerns want more information, that's the best way to get ahold of us.

[00:27:32] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Our guest today has been Misty Oebel. She's a health and farm stress extension educator with Michigan State University Extension. Thanks for being on the podcast. This is one of those areas we don't talk about very much. And I'm really glad that we did. And I think the work you guys are doing is fantastic.

And I hope that this model gets picked up in other states. We see it more widely applied because farming is important. And because farming is important, that means farmers are important. Just like you said, it's our asset. So thanks for being on podcast, Misty.

[00:28:01] Misty Oebel: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:28:03] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by vineyard professional services. Vineyard professional services works throughout the central coast of California, providing vineyard management, financial planning, vineyard development, equipment services, and a range of consulting services to wineries, growers, and investors. Established in 1997. VPS has leadership in San Louis Obispo, Santa Barbara . San Benito and Monterey counties. Their primary focus is effectively growing vineyard assets for quality and client profitability. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Misty. Tools on how to cultivate a productive mindset.

And managing stress on the farm. If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcastatvineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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What does it mean to farm sustainably?

Sustainable farming is a collection of practices spanning from water and energy conservation, to soil health and biodiversity, and social equity.

Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.

There are so many examples of sustainability in action to point to right outside of your window:

Native landscaping: minimal irrigation and maintenance needs.
Cover crops: promote soil health and provide refuge for beneficial insects.
Alternative energy sources: reduce reliance on fossil fuels.
Owl boxes & raptor perches: birds of prey feast on vertebrate pests.

One topic that sustainable farmers get asked about often is pest management. In this Sustainable Story Marketing Tip, learn how Presqu’ile Vineyards utilizes technology to manage bird pests in a more environmentally and economically sustainable way.

Safely Keeping Birds at Bay Birds like finches and starlings are common vineyard pests. They damage fruit and canopies, and will even create nests in the vines.

To protect their crops, vineyards typically use bird netting. While effective, netting comes with un-sustainable downsides: they break down in the sun, installation and removal necessitates a lot of labor, and they create waste over time, as nets must be replaced every few years.

Presqu’ile Vineyard knew there was a more sustainable way to handle their unwelcomed feathered visitors. In 2023, they installed five bird lasers.

Spooked by the beams of light, the birds stay away. But if the light beams repeat a consistent pattern, the birds will ignore the lasers and reenter the vineyard.

To maintain the perceived threat, the laser beams are programmed for a variety of motions.

As for the effectiveness of the lasers, Andrew Heilbrun, Vineyard Manager, says that “monitoring bird pressure visually is pretty easy. We saw very little damage this past season after installing the lasers.”

On top of serving their main purpose as an effective method for bird abatement, Andrew notes that their new laser systems offer several other benefits:

Removes tripping hazard for employees.
Doesn’t affect non-target animals.
Reduces waste.
More financially sustainable.

The bird lasers at Presqu’ile Vineyard have proven to be a Safe Pest Management strategy with benefits that touch all 3 P's of sustainability: People, Planet, and Prosperity.

Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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To understand fungicide resistance in the vineyard, a group of United States scientists formed the Fungicide Resistance Assessment Mitigation and Extension (FRAME). Sarah Lowder, Assistant Professor and Viticulture Extension Specialist at the University of Georgia describes a nationwide sampling project to test for resistance markers. To get samples, they are promoting a new collection method called glove sampling. This process leverages the time that fieldworkers are in the field running their hands through the vines. They collect samples by rubbing their gloved hands on a cotton swab and sending the sample to the lab. Research shows that glove sampling results are very similar to spore trapping, a process that samples the air flowing through the vineyard.

Resources: * 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light * 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money * A Rapid Glove-Based Inoculum Sampling Technique to Monitor Erysiphe necator in Commercial Vineyard * Fisherbrand™ Plastic Handled Cotton Swabs and Applicators * Grape FRAME Networks * Glove swab sampling tutorial for collecting grape powdery mildew (video) * Glove Swab sampling tutorial for collecting grape powdery mildew - silent (video) * Identification of Putative SDHI Target Site Mutations in the SDHB, SDHC, and SDHD Subunits of the Grape Powdery Mildew Pathogen Erysiphe necator * Rapid sampling technique to monitor Erysiphe necator more effective than visual scouting * Sarah Lowder

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript 2024-07-04_235_Sarah Lowder - glove sampling for mildew_Otter

[00:00:00] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Sarah Lawder. She is Viticulture Extension Specialist and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Horticulture at the University of Georgia. And today we're going to talk about some exciting new advancements around monitoring for powdery mildew and other related topics. Welcome to the podcast, Sarah.

[00:00:16] Sarah Lowder: Thank you very much, Craig. I'm very excited to be here.

[00:00:18] Craig Macmillan: First though, I want to start with something I just found out about that applies to this, and that is the grape frame networks. Can you tell us exactly what that is and kind of how it came about and what it does? Okay. Thanks, Craig.

[00:00:29] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. Yeah, the FRAME Network is part of a USDA SCRI grant.

This is a project that was funded several years ago, I believe in 2017, as part of the Specialty Crop Research Initiative Project System. And FRAME Networks literally stands for Fungicide Resistance Assessment Mitigation and Extension. networks. And so this was a grant that was really intended to look and learn so much more about how fungicide resistance works in the vineyard for powdery mildew specifically.

But this was a group, a very large group of scientists from all across the country from a wide range of different disciplines looking into how we can better address fungicide resistance for vineyards and for powdery mildew specifically.

[00:01:12] Craig Macmillan: But there's also applications either now or in the future for other fungal diseases like downy mildew, et cetera.

[00:01:18] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. Yep. They are currently working on getting a new iteration of this grant, Frame 2 as it were that will hopefully be able to address also resistance in Downy Mildew and Botrytis Bunch Rot.

[00:01:29] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. This is really exciting because what I saw was that there are people at Washington State, Oregon State in California, and then on the East Coast.

So hopefully this work will continue. What exactly kinds of things does Frame do?

[00:01:45] Sarah Lowder: Yeah, so we had a multi pronged approach for this project. One of the big parts that I was a part of is looking at the assessment of the fungicide resistance. So one of the things that we did was collect powdery mildew from all across the country, from states and vineyards all over, all over the place, and then look for different fungicide resistance markers in that mildew.

That can hopefully help us much more quickly assess if we have fungicide resistance present in a sample. One of the big groups of fungicides that we looked at was the QOI fungicides, the Sturbulurins, also sometimes they're called or the FRAC Group 11, with FRAC is the Fungicide Resistance Action Committee.

Is what the FRAC group would be for that and those just kind of group your different fungicides based on the mode of action. So how they work on the different diseases that they're attempting to control. And so we were looking at this group, this group 11, the QOI products which operate by attaching to the mitochondria, so the powerhouse of the cell.

And just preventing them from being able to produce energy and so the, the spores die and you don't get any more growth of that disease. But because it's one of those products that works like a binding site if you get resistance presence it just means that your fungicide can no longer attached to the disease and then it can grow in the presence of that fungicide and then you can even no matter how much you spray that product it can still continue to grow.

By looking at there's one particular mutation that occurs that causes that resistance in this group of products and we're able to run a test much more quickly than you can otherwise do a lot of different fungicide resistance testing And tell whether or not you had QOI resistant or sensitive Mildew in your field so you knew whether or not you could use that product or not

[00:03:35] Craig Macmillan: What about frac group three?

That's another one that we have known Resistance issues with the demethylation inhibitors. Is that part of the project as well?

[00:03:43] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely Absolutely, the DMIs demethylation inhibitors, absolutely, the FRAC3 Group 3 are a group of products that have a little bit more complicated unfortunately of a resistance pattern rather than just having one particular mutation.

There, there are a bunch of different things going on in those products. But we do have a marker that can help us get a sense for the resistance. It's not as necessarily reliable as the QOI. Frack Group 11 product resistant testing, but we can test that as well and give us an idea of whether or not we might have resistance to DMIs present in the field as well.

[00:04:19] Craig Macmillan: Are there other frack groups that have potential or have found some resistant populations coming down the pike?

[00:04:28] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. Anything that has a very specific mode of action really has some potential for having a resistance develop in a population.

[00:04:36] Craig Macmillan: Great.

[00:04:38] Sarah Lowder: We're, we're looking at some of the modes of action. We have not heard as much of field failures due to resistance to a lot of other products, but we wanted to, like, kind of get a, get a jump on looking for some of those other modes of action to see if we can develop. Test to be able to monitor that, monitor that much more quickly before resistance becomes as much of an issue.

And we were able to get a lot of that information for like the SDHI groups, which is the group 7 products. Although again, we're not really hearing too much yet of any field failures for powdery mildew control from the SDHIs. As well as looking much more into some of the mechanisms for how group 13, quinoxafen how well how the resistance might work in that system.

All of those are stuff that we were able to do because of the Frame Network project team.

[00:05:26] Craig Macmillan: That's really great. I hope that we can continue that. That's really important work. In order to do that kind of thing, you need to get samples. And you and your colleagues are promoting a new method for monitoring for powdery mildew and collecting, I guess, ASCA spores, I would imagine, is what you're collecting.

Tell me about it. There's videos on YouTube. It's really exciting.

[00:05:47] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely.

[00:05:47] Craig Macmillan: It involves a glove.

[00:05:49] Sarah Lowder: Indeed, we call them glove swabs, which is one of the projects that I was able to help lead as a part of the system. Because you hit the nail on the head when you are trying to monitor fungicide resistance.

The first step that you have to do is actually find the mildew. And you want to find this before you have a control problem. You want to find it while there's still not very much mildew present in the field. We looked at, we looked at a bunch of different ways. Not everything worked very well. But one of the ideas that we had was, oh, We have vineyard workers moving throughout the field all the time.

Could we potentially use these people who are already in the field doing normal stuff to also potentially collect powdery mildew? And we found that as you're moving through the vineyard, as you're moving your hands along the canopy, you're able to collect powdery mildew. Conidia spores, actually, it's generally, it's their summer spores.

are collecting and you're able to take a, just a cotton swab. So many of us have taken a COVID test that you've had to stick up your nose. It's a very similar, similar swab that you take with your hands. And you can stick that in a tube and send it to the lab for processing. This system worked, I think, way better than any of us were expecting it to.

It was actually much better than trying to go out there and look for it physically. And you can do it much faster because it's just literally, you can be walking through the vineyard with your hands in the canopy, take a swab. and collect it, and you can find that so much faster if you're already having to do a lab test for that product.

[00:07:16] Craig Macmillan: And also the potential here is that, let's say I've got a crew out and we're doing a shoot thinning in the spring, so they're handling the canopy all the time, we could swab some gloves and then send that out to be tested and get an idea what's out there.

[00:07:27] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. Absolutely. And as you're already testing for whether the field is out there, you can also use the same test to tell whether or not you have resistant mildew to the QI fungicides.

[00:07:38] Craig Macmillan: Is this quantitative?

[00:07:41] Sarah Lowder: So, it is run on a quantitative quantitative PCR. So, in theory, it does give you some information on how much mildew is present. In the QI QPCR test, in the test that tests for the fungicide resistance pattern, it tests a piece of DNA in the mitochondria, and you can technically have different numbers of things.

Mitochondria per cell, individual cell, and so the, the quantitative, it does give you that information, but it's not necessarily the most reliable information. So as, as a scientist, I'm always hesitant to say that, oh, you can get quantitative information, but it, in theory, it does give you a little bit of information about how many spores at least you were able to collect.

You can tell a little bit of that information.

[00:08:21] Craig Macmillan: Can it tell me something along the lines of, I can go out and sample at the very beginning of the season, maybe even post bud break, and say, oh, we have nothing there yet, and then come by later and test and say, oh, we have something there now. Is there a qualitative aspect to it?

[00:08:41] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. So we tested it and compared the glove swabs to visual scouting to compare it to someone actually physically going out and looking and found that the glove swabs were much more sensitive. They were able to find the powdered mildew much faster, and also much sooner than the OR than our visual eyes were able to do So.

But we also tested it in comparison to impaction spore traps. So these are tests that actually had come out of a lot of the lab that I worked in the foliar pathology lab with Walt Mahaffey at the USDA for a couple years previously with like Lindsay Thiessen that they were able to test these impaction spore traps which sample the air that flows through the vineyard.

We're collecting that many of the vineyards in the Willamette Valley of Oregon which we did a lot of the testing in that area as well as in Areas like Napa, California have a bunch of these spore traps present that we were able to test it in comparison to these spore traps, which have been used pretty widely in the system.

And what we found was that our glove swabs were showing us very similar information to these impaction spore traps which was really cool because a lot of these growers absolutely do use already these impaction spore traps to look at when they're going to initiate their fungicide spray programs.

So, in theory, yes. You could absolutely potentially use these glove swabs as a fungicide initiation indicator.

[00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's what I was getting at, and that's, that's a really exciting technology. Because obviously we're trying to control the amount of material we put out there, and obviously part of resistance management is being careful what you put out and when.

And so having a good idea of what the timing should be, I think, is really important. And then of course, as everybody knows, People who listen to this podcast know, by the time you see it, it's too late, baby.

[00:10:24] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely.

[00:10:24] Craig Macmillan: You know, it's, it's, it's, you're chasing a ghost. And so, here's, here's our Ghostbuster tool, where we can catch that ghost before before it comes too much of a problem.

Now you said, send these off for, to a lab for analysis. What what labs are we talking about?

[00:10:39] Sarah Lowder: The initial frame grant project is technically at a, has come to an end and so the funding that originally funded a lot of this testing has ended, but now we're able to supply all of these protocols and testing materials and stuff to a lot of the different private labs elsewhere.

So I know one of the private labs that does the impaction trap testing. service in the William Valley of Oregon has taken over that process, as well as I know a bunch of different labs like I know at UGA here, where I am currently, they have some tools and able to do some of those testings or do some of those tests as well with the qPCR.

And so even if you, a lab where you send a lot of your materials, if they happen to have a qPCR present and you're strongly interested in doing it, you can talk to them to see if they might potentially be willing to add this into their repertoire.

[00:11:24] Craig Macmillan: So, this technology is starting to make it out into the world of commercial plant pathology.

[00:11:29] Sarah Lowder: Yes.

[00:11:30] Craig Macmillan: I may have a plant pathology lab that I already work with, I can talk to them, I can make some phone calls, and for instance, a commercial lab in Oregon, they're a business, so they still may do samples from California or from Washington or from Ohio.

[00:11:44] Sarah Lowder: Yeah, potentially.

[00:11:45] Craig Macmillan: It's not limited by territory.

[00:11:46] Sarah Lowder: Correct. You can send these samples and as long as you're not leaving your samples out in the sun and in the heat for a long period of time they can be shipped off elsewhere as well.

[00:11:55] Craig Macmillan: Where do you see this technology going? What's, what's the future here? We, we, we've just kind of touched on it a little bit, but what, in your, when you close your eyes and imagine the long term impact of your work, where do you see this kind of thing going?

[00:12:08] Sarah Lowder: One, I would love to see a lot of this information being used more regularly to be able to test this a little faster. And eventually, one day, we may be able to test for all of these different resistance genes, all of these different resistance patterns within the same sample. So you could be like, okay as a normal part of my practice, I'm going out and taking these glove swabs or whatever else that I'm looking to test.

Even if I don't use a glove swab, but I can come in and take my powdery mildew sample and send it off to the lab and get a, just a score sheet of exactly what fungicide products could be used or could be not used. That would be really awesome, because no one wants to buy a product that it's not going to work, and no one wants to put a product out that's not going to work for any reasons, environmentally or financially.

In the wallet or just for labor purposes. It's just a win, win, win situation. If you know, you don't have to use a product and instead you could choose a different one.

[00:13:01] Craig Macmillan: Oh, this might be a related, very practical matter. So gloves, touching vines, no problem. I can have workers. I could have actually my VIT tech go down a row and then swipe the canopy.

Where do I get the swabs because we're talking about something has to be a sterile protected swab, just like the COVID test swab. Where do I get those?

[00:13:17] Sarah Lowder: Yeah so a lot of the times, or at least for a lot of this test that we did originally they were groups that we sent out, or like just kits that we would send out to the different cooperating practices.

But essentially, it is literally the same tool. It's a polystyrene cotton swab tip and we normally will put them into these little half tubes that kind of keep their tip protected, and then you will stick it back into the plastic wrap that it came in, and then wrap it up so that it stays more protected. But it is, it is literally the same tool that you often will use for those COVID tests, which made it really hard to get that right at the beginning of the pandemic.

[00:13:54] Craig Macmillan: Where, where can I get them? Where can I order them from?

[00:13:56] Sarah Lowder: So I can send a link for the type of material that we're looking for. And then you can shop around for the same tip at a couple different locations and find the best price.

[00:14:06] Craig Macmillan: That'd be perfect. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. So folks, you can go check that out and find the materials that you need.

And then you can also shop around for the labs and see who's doing what. And again, if a lab is getting a lot of phone calls. That's going to encourage them to adopt this new technology. What is kind of the, the current state of the nation, if you will, in terms of fungicide resistance, what are the hot new topics, what's getting funded?

What are people working on and where are they working on it?

[00:14:33] Sarah Lowder: Fungicide resistance is certainly a hot topic that has a lot of different research happening in a lot of different areas. I could literally fill your entire podcast probably with talking about this topic. One thing that I'm very excited about is to hopefully see this Frame 2 iteration happen that is, being submitted for funding for this next funding cycle this year, but it is looking to hopefully also add in testing for downy mildew and betritis bunch rot, which are also two big diseases that can cause a lot of issues.

Especially now that I'm over here in Georgia, I'm very excited to hopefully get to test much more of the downy mildew which can be quite the struggle in the vineyard. And we're getting much more information on a lot of the other modes of action that we're working with. I'm excited to see a lot of the information come out about some of the quinoxephins.

Some of this information that we have started to work on and we haven't seen much field resistance to these products yet. But if we continue to use them, then they may still pop up. And so hopefully making sure that we can get ahead of the game for these other products.

[00:15:37] Craig Macmillan: I'm very happy about that because I'm old enough to remember when the DMIs came out and it was like, Oh my god, it's a secret.

It's the silver bullet. We're never gonna have to use sulfur again. Yay, and then it was literally within a couple of years they failed in some places. Now, the Fungicide Resistance Action Committee is publishing better information, more information, more accessible information every year about what's new about the different code groups.

And they're also now putting a category in, or they have for a long time, but they have a category in there about the potential for resistance. So they'll say, yeah, there's known resistant populations for this. This one has got high potential, even if we haven't found it yet. And that's directing research in that direction.

And I think that's really important that we stay ahead of these things. things, looking at where the potential is, as well as where there's known issues. So that's really fantastic. This is going on at what OSU, MSU, I think, Tim Miles in Michigan Walt Mahaffey in Oregon. I think Washington state.

[00:16:35] Sarah Lowder: Mm hmm. Michelle Moyer is the viticulture specialist at Washington state university, who's been the project director for this project, led with Walt Mahaffey, who is the foliar plant pathologist at the USDA located in Corvallis. the horticultural crops units. And then a whole, a whole group of scientists from across the nation.

There are people at UC Davis. There's people at Michigan State University. Even while I worked on this project in my role at Oregon State, I'm at with the USDA in Corvallis, Oregon. I'm now here at the University of Georgia working with Phil Brannon, who was the University of Georgia, Scientist working on this project and who actually was the person that convinced me to actually apply for the job that I currently now sit in.

[00:17:20] Craig Macmillan: That's great. You know, we do still have a little bit of time left. This is a huge topic, but I found it interesting as I was doing research on you and looking at your publications. One of the things you've been involved in is research on collective action. and information transfer among growers related to disease management.

And I am really fascinated by this topic. My background is in sociology. So my background is in people, talking to people, doing people stuff. And as we know, things, not just diseases, but also insects like mealybugs, etc. It's an area wide issue. And what you do or do not do on one farm affects what happens or doesn't happen on another farm.

Can you tell us just a little bit about what that research was like, what you did?

[00:17:57] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. So that was really coming from how do we branch out from some of the fungicide resistance? Like how do we use a lot of this information that we are getting? One of the things that we were realizing is that some of the vineyards that we were working with, that we were getting some of these tests from, even organic vineyards who were not using any, they weren't using the QIs.

They also weren't using any other synthetic product. We're still seeing sometimes very high rates. of the fungicide resistance to these different products. And what we really found was that a lot of the information that we were able to look at was really so much more useful on that larger scale when we were able to look at all of this data in the aggregate.

And so one of the things, which I'm going to talk about my experience with the Oregon State, in the William Valley Vineyard growers especially, that they took all of this information, that they took the data, powdery mildew information that we are getting from their impaction spore traps. They were taking the fungicide resistance data that we were giving them, and they were sharing all this information with each other.

And we're able to say, Hey, oh, I was using this product, you know, on my field this year and next year. And then I started to see a lot of issues. You didn't see it immediately, but you saw it pretty closely after I did, even though you followed the patterns elsewhere. And so they were able to take a lot of that information and aggregate it and share together and be able to use that much more quickly.

I didn't talk too much about how much of the fungicide resistance that we were seeing. We definitely did see some differences in some of the states. that we were looking at, although it was generally pretty high rates of resistance to the QI products across the nation. That degree was less in a lot of the places in Oregon where a lot of this information started and where they shared a lot of this information from the get go.

So one of the things that we wanted to look at was how does this information come across and then what do people do with that information? Absolutely. So when you get into the area wide management, when you, when you start talking about it, you're like, okay, while I manage my property, Unfortunately, a lot of these diseases aren't just staying on my property.

If we could, if we could keep everyone isolated, then we wouldn't have to talk about a lot of this information management information management across all these different regions. What do we do once we have that knowledge and once we're sharing all of these spores back and forth even if we don't necessarily want to share that.

But if we can also share some of the information on what we're all seeing, we can all manage it a little better. Even if it's just as simple as like, Oh, my sprayer was not calibrated correctly and I'm starting to see More powdery mildew in my vineyard blocks. If you communicate that to your neighbor, then they may be able to increase their spray intervals a little bit more in order to not lose their crop because they're going to have to deal with a much higher crop load.

And they could be looking at the spore information. They could be looking at any of these monitoring effects that they're collecting. But if you can know that a source population nearby is going to be pushing more spores more readily, that's even before it's hitting your vineyard. So it's getting that information even a little faster than you would with some of the spore monitoring efforts, if that makes sense.

[00:21:01] Craig Macmillan: That does make sense. And so, in terms of the collecting the information, this doesn't just have to be glove swabs or, you know, impaction traps. This simply can be people saying, hey, I'm seeing mildew pressure that's pretty intense, or I'm seeing it earlier, or whatever. Other people are saying, I'm not seeing it yet, but I know I'm downwind of you, for instance.

Or, I know that my conditions are still very conducive, so I might be able to, like you said, increase my spray intervals, maybe check my calibration, check my coverage. It's a, it's a heads up. Basically from from one grower to another. How is this information shared?

[00:21:34] Sarah Lowder: So there are lots of different ways that this information is shared One of the ways that we wanted to look is at just what did people find the most useful when they were Looking for different information on either new diseases or old diseases or all that kind of thing And some of the stuff that we were finding was that people really found their colleagues, just those person to person conversations that they were having to be the most useful information when managing any diseases.

And while people certainly found, which I was happy to hear, that people found their viticulture specialists, their extension agents, to be extremely useful when helping to find this information, they really were still, the the most important part was their colleagues and their neighbors, the other growers in the area.

And so you can look at different ways that people communicate, which we, one of the things that we did was look at a communication network. So just exactly how is that information flowing in the system? And there are certain people, which this may not necessarily be a huge surprise. But there are certain people that a lot of people go to, to learn more information about stuff, especially as someone that is looking at a region and be like, Ooh, I have one, this super great new tool, mate, I have something even cooler than the glove swabs.

And now I need to tell. the growers about it. I need to see if we can actually use this in a commercial way that'll be viable. You can go to some of these more influential individuals within a region and then hopefully see that information spread a little bit more quickly than it might otherwise if you just kind of picked your people based on just where they were located or even just the closest ones you get your hands on.

As it were.

[00:23:09] Craig Macmillan: Gotta find the node. Gotta find the hub,

[00:23:11] Sarah Lowder: find the node. .

[00:23:14] Craig Macmillan: This is an interesting topic to me because one of the things that I think we've lost from a cultural standpoint is the coffee shop. People who are now retired growers have talked to me about how you're on your farm. You know, before sunup you get things running, you get going.

People are doing what they're doing. Everything's fine. And then you go to the coffee shop about nine o'clock and everybody's there. And that's where the information would get transferred. And this goes back to the, you know, basic farming decades ago. We don't do that anymore. What we do is we're there at Sunup before Sunup, we get things running, we get done, then we're back in the truck and we're on the phone and we're going to the next ranch and we're not connecting with people.

In that kind of social conversational way, the way that we used to. And so hopefully we can revive some of that either through meetings or through internet or through just simply networks, like you said, if there's a relationship, you can just simply call somebody and say, Hey, I'm starting to see this and hopefully we can build those social networks and see the collective benefits

[00:24:12] Sarah Lowder: and find more ways to bring us together.

[00:24:15] Craig Macmillan: Find more ways to bring us together in a world that seems to be forcing us apart, right? No. On this topic of managing diseases and monitoring diseases, is there one thing you'd recommend to our listeners around this?

[00:24:27] Sarah Lowder: There are lots of different diseases in lots of different ways that a lot of things are managed and we talked a little bit about Collective action in the sense that a lot of times some diseases are more effectively managed on a much wider scale than an individual Farming unit so like you could do the best practices in your own vineyard but if you have Someone next door doing lawn best practices that could just mitigate all of the hard work that you just put into it.

But it's hard to say anything on the large scale other than the fact that Talking more with those around you has a much wider benefit for disease management on all scales And just also grow better cultural practices, better more information on learning. I may be someone in the academia realm, but I always think that the more you can learn, the better.

And your neighbors are in the same game as you are, especially in vineyards. I feel like the mantra of the rising tide lifts all boats is very much in effect.

[00:25:24] Craig Macmillan: So we can learn from extension and from all that great stuff that's out there, but we can also learn from each other. Sarah, where can people find out more about you and your work?

[00:25:31] Sarah Lowder: Yeah, so now that I'm over here at the University of Georgia, where I'm most easy to find is through the Viticulture Extension website. It's called the UGA Viticulture Blog. We post a lot of information relevant to those growers in the southeast, but we also have a blog posting that sometimes will go out via email if you would like to sign up for that, backlog of what we've posted.

It's the easiest way to find me. I'm all around the University of Georgia system.

[00:26:00] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Thank you so much. Our guest today was Sarah Lowdre. She's a Denture and Viticulture Specialist and Assistant Professor in the Department of Horticulture at the University of Georgia. Thanks for being here. This was a great conversation.

[00:26:10] Sarah Lowder: Thank you, Greg. I had a great time.

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Your tasting room may be the most customer-facing facet of your wine business. This makes it the perfect setting to display your dedication to sustainability.

On a recent Vineyard Team staff trip to Oso Libre, we immediately noticed how they showcased their passion for sustainability through out the property.

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I highly recommend going to the show notes and clicking on “Sustainable Tasting Room Tips” to see pictures of all the great signage we found at Oso Libre.

Sign Sustainably Oso Libre highlights their sustainable certification right from the front gate with a custom sign. Their passion is seeded throughout every area of the property. From sustainable signs posted on the fence line to informational pieces at the tasting room bar, every wall has a message that connects guests with what sustainability means to Oso Libre.

Consider where your guests meander to at your property and how you can place signage to tell them more about your brand.

At Oso Libre, curious tasters are enticed by a plaque as they walk along the vineyard rows to the tasting room front door. This sign defines the seven values of sustainability; Social Responsibility, Water Management, Safe Pest Management, Energy Efficiency, Habitat, Business, and Always Evolving.

By creating a piece of in-depth material, you welcome your customers to dig a little deeper and learn exactly how your brand embodies sustainability.

Philanthropy is very important to Oso Libre’s owners Chris and Linda. A sign in the shade by the outdoor seating shares information about their Por Vida Foundation. Proceeds from various winery activities like events and bottle sales are donated to cancer research, veterans’ services, animal services, and family support programs.

Consider how you give back to your community and tell your customers about it. They will love learning how you take care of our most valuable resource - our people.

Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources: * Sustainable Tasting Room Tips * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Apply for SIP Certified Wine * Center of Effort's Sustainable Story feature in Grape and Wine Magazine * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Sustainable Story | Print * Sustainable Story | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story?

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The goal of the NASA Acres Consortium is to bridge the gap between space and farms to create sustainable food systems now and in the future. Yu Jiang, Assistant Professor of Systems Engineering and Data Analytics, School of Integrative Plant Science Horticulture Section Cornell AgriTech explains how this group of researchers is using land-based robots to ground truth data from satellites and aerial imaging to create predictive models. The project aims to bring cost effective solutions for disease management, breeding, pruning, and more to farmers of all sizes.

Resources: * 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light * 129: The Efficient Vineyard Project * 191: CropManage: Improving the Precision of Water and Fertilizer Inputs * 199: NASA Satellites Detect Grapevine Diseases from Space * Convolutional Neural Networks for Image-Based High-Throughput Plant Phenotyping: A Review * Deep Semantic Segmentation for the Quantification of Grape Foliar Diseases in the Vineyard * Deep Learning-based Autonomous Downy Mildew Detection and Severity Estimations in Vineyards * NASA Acres - applying satellite data solutions to the most pressing challenges facing U.S. agriculture * Yu Jiang

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Yu Jiang. He is an assistant professor of systems engineering and data analytics in the School of integrative plant science horticulture section at Cornell agritech. Thank you for being on the podcast

Yu Jiang 0:12

Thanks Craig for having me for these podcasts.

Craig Macmillan 0:15

I found out about you, because you're connected to the NASA acres Consortium, which is doing a bunch of really cool stuff for all kinds of crops around the world and winegrapes turning out to be part of it. What is what is NASA acres,

Yu Jiang 0:28

So I got to adopt the some of the official description about a NASA acre so our audience can better understand what's our mission and what's our approach. So NASA acres consortium is commissioned under NASA Applied Sciences program, and brings the value of Earth observation technology down to earth. NASA acres consortium established the march 2023 And then led by Dr. Alissa Witcraft from the University of Maryland. NASA acres is NASA's second consortium devoted to strengthening food security and agriculture, followed by the success of NASA harvest, a global focus a consortium but this time, NASA Acers specifically emphasizes on the US own agriculture land in NASA acres, we bridge the gap from space to farm and adaptation to impact to gather with US farmers, ranchers, and other agri food system decision makers who are charged with addressing the most pressing challenges to sustainable, productive, resilient agriculture now and in the future. to ensure our missions, NASA acres utilize a consortium structure to bring together a geographically, semantically and personally diverse group of agriculture actors, and partners from both public and private sectors collaborated within a model that matches ivory cultures own highly dynamic and diverse needs, and flexible partnerships and rapid actions on tools in NASA acres that will help ensure that a satellite based Earth Observations applications are user driven and free for all the preppers we envision .

Craig Macmillan 2:25

a huge mission. There's a bunch of different technologies that are involved here. And you're involved in a bunch of them. One that I'm particularly curious about was we had a guest on the podcast from Cornell Katie Gold, she was working with hyperspectral imaging and the detection of plant stress, but as a plant disease. And that's the that's the sky. Right? That's the information coming from satellites or whatever. You are the boots on the ground person. Is that right?

Yu Jiang 2:49

Yes, correct. I'm on the ground, I'm doing the groundwork.

Craig Macmillan 2:53

All right, we're literally grounding. So as far as that project goes, I understand that you're using robots and with sensors and artificial intelligence and whatnot to detect and predict disease spread. You tell me more about that.

Yu Jiang 3:09

For my account of a personal program, and the involvement of with NASA acres, you know, project, we bring in new, especially ground robots, we use various internet of of things, sensing network technologies, that we can offer the information as the ground truth matterments that many of these you know satellite or Earth observation data streams can use to try and various models for prediction, or estimation of various things of interest. And disease is definitely one of the biggest things for the ineyard management's currently adding in the future.

Craig Macmillan 3:50

Absolutely. If I understand what this work is on the ground as its ground truthing what the hyperspectral imaging is telling us is that right?

Yu Jiang 4:00

Roughly yes, if you can see there, all the current paradigm of doing remote sensing work. Most of the time, people are really focusing on the modeling, or how we can find the best and model to link or connect the hyperspectral signals collect data from, you know, satellite based or airborne based imagery systems, we use the ground truth data collected by a human on the ground. And these have been proven very successful in the past to produce various models that we are using right now including weather forecast, but with the very rapid and unprecedented climate challenges, and also the induced disease pressures. We are kind of lagging behind with the speed or pace we need to develop new models to tackle these problems. And that's a reason we want the robot to do so so that we can catch up with the disease. This can Have a fashion or progression speed, but also offer new tools for our viewers to use for their management decision making.

Craig Macmillan 5:08

So tell me about the robots, what are the robots doing?

Yu Jiang 5:12

So we developed a customized robot called the phytopathobot short for PPP. So basically phytopathology there's, my colleague, Katie Gold right is a scientist, that who really work on plant disease, and the bot is just the short name for the robots. And we put these two together, and basically just shows we integrated the kind of advantages offered robotic or automation systems with the new AI capability. So this robots can really bring the human experience and intelligence to all the fields that can do for example, if you see scouting recommendation, or some other, you know, checking functions that otherwise currently we have no human resources to do so for every single farm at the present time.

Craig Macmillan 6:06

Right? Is it fair to say that the training part would be described as artificial intelligence? Or should we call it neural network hearing? Or what would be the appropriate technical term for that part of it? Because I have a question about that.

Yu Jiang 6:17

Yeah, I think, broadly speaking, is a part of the artificial intelligence.

Craig Macmillan 6:23

Okay.

Yu Jiang 6:23

And that is more off the AI application for agriculture.

Craig Macmillan 6:28

What's happening is there's cameras then or there's some kind of a, either hyperspectral, or there's something that's getting information that's mounted on the robot, right?

Yu Jiang 6:40

Yes, correct. Our robot is currently equipped in ways both RGB multispectral thermal and the hyperspectral sensors, which many more on the road.

Craig Macmillan 6:52

And then you get readings. And then you know, human, I would assume says yes, this is disease, or yes, this is not. And then over many, many iterations, then the artificial intelligence learns what that is. And then it can be autonomous, you can send it out and it'll find it on its own, identify it on its own.

Yu Jiang 7:14

Yes, so I would see the autonomy is achieved at two levels. First is all the AI system for disease identification and quantification. We have a twin various models, with the expertise from our like, it's 30 plus year career technicians. And now we just a brand Hey, spray into the AI system that we can rely on to detect the disease in the field, specifically for a grape downey and powdery mildews at the moment. But at the same time, we also train the AI systems to guide the robots, autonomously navigating in the vineyard. is much more like the similar technology Tesla or other you know, EV car manufacturers are using for autonomous driving, but now just say, equipped those technologies with this ag robot that can do with autonomous navigation in vanguard in alternative in many of the different fields for agriculture purposes.

Craig Macmillan 8:14

the future of this technology, or the robots gonna continue to be a part of it, or are we going to be at a point where we're relying solely upon the aerial or orbit based imagery?

Yu Jiang 8:26

That's a great question. And I actually want to set up some of the context. information for our audience,

Craig Macmillan 8:33

please.

Yu Jiang 8:33

So yeah, the robots we kind of referred to here, actually those intelligent, you know, agent that can perform certain tasks in your backyard, or do the actual right to do all these operations, like a spring harvesting, you know, picking samples, all these, then when we consider how are we going to strategically and effectively deploy those robots? That's a big question is not a trivial because each robot at the current, you know, time would cost roughly 50,000 to $60,000. I think for many of the large farms, or wineries, the company will be able to afford that. For many of the small to medium sized farms, these can be a barrier for them to adopt the latest digital technology, which I hate, you know, that part as technologist. So one of the possibility is actually linked to the NASA acres project and the mission is a how we can use all sorts of information that can be affordably available to the growers to really use that for decision making. And a while of the concept we propose here is to make a closed loop joint training system that can connect the proximal sensing from the robots and other drone systems, we use the Earth observation data offered by federal agencies such as NASA, so that later all the growers can really enjoy, you know, using a very low cost or affordable platform offered from NASA or NASA acres consortia to make decisions on their individual farms. But largely training, the costs of a training such a model is taking over by large growers, largely, you know, stakeholders and some sort of a, you know, public and research institute that can balance the way or how the disadvantages you know, community can't adopt the latest technology.

Craig Macmillan 10:44

That is fascinating. You mentioned tasks, what kind of tasks are you talking about?

Yu Jiang 10:49

The current account of the PPP robots can do two tasks. First thing is for disease recognition, and the qualification, as I mentioned, for downey, and powerdy, and then now PPP can also generate a map right after the scanning off your vineyard, where those disease really severely infected your plants right now. And we working in progress try to use these PPP derive the map to correlate with the satellite maps or hyperspectral imaging so we can get so we can find which hyperspectral signals gone and correlated with diseases infection on the ground. And this is especially important for crops like grapes because of manual for the disease, or occurred from the bottom of the canopy, or the side of the canopy, where many off of the you know, satellite or Earth observation systems may not easily see at the beginning. But those signals will be embedded in the hyperspectral signatures.

Craig Macmillan 11:55

Got it. Okay. So I could get a map that would allow me to spray pesticide a fungicide very, very targeted way is kind of where we're going with this.

Yu Jiang 12:06

Yes, correct. I'm actually gonna just share some other ongoing effort here. Also, while also my colleague Dr. Devika Daughtrey from plants, Plant Pathology at Cornell agri tech, who identified the use of the UV, as treatment, powdery mildew or Downy Mildew for our grapes. And our account of ongoing efforts is to synchronize that map generated by PPP and the transfer to the UV robots. So now UV robots are gonna rely on that map to apply the UV treatment to balance the power usage and the hopefully to also maximize the contents of the disease spreading in the vineyard.

Craig Macmillan 12:52

That's really exciting. I understand the USDA also has some some role in this technology or related technologies.

Yu Jiang 12:59

Yeah, you ask the actually is a big partner of the whole team, especially for the grape genetics research unit, here in Geneva, New York. And we have a very multidisciplinary team, I will see I can see is from like a plant breeding to genetic to plant pathology now, including myself from engineering and robotics. And we also have about informatics, and we some colleagues from other universities on economy and marketing. So the whole team's efforts is back to a systems engineering approach, I would say. So when we look at the whole production, right, it's not just that, yeah, we have this robot that can do proceed and spray or deliver the UV treatment can solve all these questions. It's just hard to imagine that simple. So then we when we look at the whole agriculture production system, we started with the best plant material. And if we started with the building a candidate or a successful candidate data, usually just to make the rest of the whole production management much easier than ever before.

Craig Macmillan 14:14

Yeah, absolutely.

Yu Jiang 14:15

That's where, you know, all the scientists on the team really excited about how we can breed a new plant materials that have more like a natural resistance to plant the disease or maybe other stresses so that later on the in season management, it can be much more easily, you know, controlled or conducted by the growers. That Castile enable sustainable, you know, agriculture while maximizing the profitability for many of the growers in the future.

Craig Macmillan 14:45

I understand that one of the projects you've worked on had to do with phenotyping. So if I'm reading plants, there's a particular trait that I want and there's a particular expression of that trait that I want, whether it's disease tolerance or drought tolerance or salt tolerance. answer whatever it is, but that aspect of plant breeding is very difficult and takes a long time traditionally, and takes a high level of expertise. What is this idea of high throughput? phenotyping? What's that all about?

Yu Jiang 15:13

If you can have a think about the whole history of plant breeding, all the way you treat the back to mon Tao, we are human phenotyping is the best way, we just go to the field, plant and various plant materials, and just watch their performance in the field and find the best suitable for us. Right? So so then we recognize the traditional breeding, it becomes a numbers game, the more we test, the higher the possibility, we're going to find something, going t obe suitable for us, right? So we say it's a matter of who can email you this account of a traditional breeding way that requires the highest throughput phenotyping. Because the more you testing in the field, the higher the possibility we got to get something successful, and how to evaluate in the field is the biggest question right now. And that's where the high throughput plant phenotyping plays a vital role to address that bottleneck. So instead of for a breeder, to raw, only, you know, hundreds of 1000, you know, testing materials, the now can run, you know, 10,000, or even 100,000 in a year. That's how we hope to speed up the entire breeding cycles.

Craig Macmillan 16:25

So tell me the details of the tech of the details of the so I get some, I breed some plants, I've got some seeds, I'm gonna plant some seeds, right, I've got genetic recombination, now we gotta cross. How does this technology actually play a role? I put a bunch of plants in front of it, or how does it work?

Yu Jiang 16:46

Yep, so So in my understanding, there are actually two different paths ways to use that. One is along the traditional ways, as we just described, basically, we just find the best performancer from the field, right, and the system would just behave like a human in the field, we just find the tallest one, then we just a mirror the height of the plants in the field using the AI system with the robot, or if we want find more disease resistance is more like a what the PPB is helping right now, go to the field check a differente. And though gene all types off with a group of eyes, and then we find the least the infection as the candidate for the next one, right, this is a more like a traditional way. But now the second pathway is even more exciting is through the genetic studies. So once we kind of forget these phenotypes, especially there are differences, we have many different ways now can sequence them to understand their DNA markers and sequences, so that we will be able to work with the bell informaticians, to find which genes are associated with the phenotypic trees have a desire. Okay, so certain genes in my show, okay, the high disease resistance always associated with certain region in your DNA, and that's very likely being the gene or the region really control the resistance right to that particular disease. And if we ran multiple of these experiment, we get more and more as a candidate of Regents, and lead her on instead of keep running the field of trials, which still consume a lot of resources and the timing, because you need to wait until the plants are mature, and, you know, go through the entire season, we can now rely on those genetic, you know, information to identify the next around of a candidate, if the content of those gene regions is very likely, they're gonna have some, you know, resistance to certain disease. And that's another whole pathway, in my opinion, to facilitate the cultivar development in the future.

Craig Macmillan 18:58

And what is the role of AI in that?

Yu Jiang 19:00

So AI, please several rules there. So first, is to help the phenotyping itself, right. So basically, in the past, we sent a large group of it, you know, people go to the field and check the planet, hide diseases, infection, fruit size, you name it. And now we can just use, you know, robots to take images or even our cell phone to take an image. And then the AI will just mimic a human behavior to identify Oh, where the plant is, how tall the plant is, what's the number of leaves within that image or a number of a fruit fruit the size, a little versus, you know, trees and AI definitely now, at least, that being comparable with human performance for many of these tasks. And the other way is actually, to use AI as another tool to make a better prediction of relationship between the phenotypic trees and their genetic variants, right as we discuss for the second impassively is basically made to find that the association between genetic and phenotypic variants, and the AI also now plays a vital role to help us to find those relationships. It goes beyond traditional statistics human developed, and the find many interesting and hidden relationships that are currently statistic based approach cannot find.

Craig Macmillan 20:24

Wow, that's amazing. There's a couple of other things that that I that I was researching you that I noticed that were very, very, like practical right now, today, please, can I have some kind of technologies. One is improving the efficiency of pruning grapevines? And then I think I read this right, using facial recognition, AI technology to recognize powdery mildew infections. I would love to know about those two things, because those are two things that I would if I had it, I would use it today.

Yu Jiang 20:51

For sure. Let's start with the disease part. Yeah, cuz that's just allow what we just discussed why we developed that tool is basically a request actually, from my colleagues from the breeding and genetics slide. Okay. So in the past, my colleague, Dr. Lance Candle-Davison, at the USDA ARS develop a protocol that can use a one centimeter leaf disk as an assay to evaluate the disease progression, on the group leaf tissues, and then later on that can help him as a pathogen geneticists, to find the genes related to the disease resistance to powdery and downy mildews. But the challenge is, in the past, we have to train a bunch of, you know, technicians and the postdocs, even some of the other grad and graduate students at Cornell, to sit in front of a optical microscope and put the sample on our eight turn to like a tax 100x. And then manually identify how the pathogen really grew in the past a couple of days during the experiment, right, and then counted the number of a hyphal, which is a particular organ of the pathogen being grown, right. And then at the end of the day, they turn all these numbers back, and they will be able to run some quantitative genetic analysis, try to find the relationship. And I tried to once to be honest.

Craig Macmillan 22:27

Okay, yeah, I spent a lot of I spent a lot hours with a dissecting scope. So I hear you Isn't that fun?

Yu Jiang 22:34

Well, I want to see, for the first a couple of new samples. Yeah, it's it's a new experience for anyone, right? And if it's like, oh, yeah, I get that. After trial, you know, 10 samples. I'm done today. I don't want to see the front end of the microscope that day. And don't ask me to do this again. Right. It's quite tedious. And as a person, you'll feel fatigued very quickly. Yep. Very quickly, because you need to, to be super concentrated on what are you observing right now? And then also make the columns in your brain? I don't know how I did that. But I did. But after 10 samples, no, no more?

Craig Macmillan 23:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Yu Jiang 23:17

So that's the motivation for us to consider how the AI system can really help us, right? Because basically, what do we want the AI to do is giving you know, an image? Can you tell me? Which part content of the hypho And then tell me how I mean, how many of these hyphos are within that image? That's all right. So it's very much like the facial recognition technology we're using every single day. So our smartphone or maybe other security checking, you know, systems, right? And that just to give us motivation, hey, why not? Let me just build the robot and some of the AI tools that we can automate this whole process. So later on, instead of asking our students to do that very tedious work of observing the dissecting microscope, we will be able to allow them to do more intelligent work, how to find or improve the approval from the genetics, the perspective or the breeding perspective, rather than letting them doing this repeated and boring work. And that's the whole motivation here. And that's a reason why we can't have a proposed out method and that really got some success and to speed up that process. And now, just want to share with you in the past the year 2023 Last group, by using this technology was able to find a 60 more quantitative trait, a low sigh, which you can see there are data that gene regions related to certain, you know, phenotypic traits. And here in this study, that's more for the powdery mildew resistance. just named as single year, his team found 60 More as compare with, we fund probably 40 In the past four decades.

Craig Macmillan 25:08

Wow, wow, that's fantastic. There's so much here. There's so much stuff going on in it, as I have guests on that are working in these areas. It's just is it every day, I'm just learning so much new stuff, but I can't let you go without talking about pruning. I just, I just have to know about that I've I pruned a lot of grape vines personally, and I've trained people and you know, and there's, there's this, well, I'll just break it down for you. Pruning grape vines is an art form. And I don't care what kind of Trellis I don't care what kind of grape, whatever it is. And even if you're mechanized, that you gotta tune this thing up, and you got to collect data, and you got to figure out how this is gonna work. And when you have vines that are being pruned, you're trained, every single time somebody that I've been working with, usually above me was like, do these people really know what they're doing? Because they can't screw it up. Right? So now, is this going to help me? I mean, this is do you have technology? That's gonna help me you? I mean, I need this help.

Yu Jiang 26:02

Yes. Also, simple answer is A Yes, yes. And yes. So we are developing actually, the technology for the broader pruning a system for both apples and grapes as perennial crops, because they do need this type of technology to help based on my personal experience in the past three years, with both the pruning for apples and pruning for grapes, I share your burden Craig, it's not only you, but as an observer, and both the person who did the pruning, okay, using the knives, I have a strong feeling, I don't know what I'm doing.

Craig Macmillan 26:44

Right?

Yu Jiang 26:44

Right, I have a lot of criteria being you know, taught, say you need to find a branch that thick or that long, then you need to cut to certain lengths or just a cut them entirely, so that you can have new shoots coming with more healthy groups and the more productive grooves in the year. But to be honest, and once you get into the field, maybe perhaps the first several you keep that in mind. And then otherwise, oh, yeah, I just feel like these two needs to be cut. Don't ask me why I just feel that way. Right. And this is a kind of shows the non uniformity among the workforce. If I'm a beginner, I have less experience, I gotta be low in my working efficiency, I am going to create more problems, and rather than more success pruning, for the management, and obviously, the more counter for trend and people needs to be you know, pay them more because they have those experiences. So that all comes through the labor shortage issue, then it's just really hard to find those skilled people. So in my group, we kind of develop we are developing new 3d imaging technologies. Oh, wow. Yeah, that can get the very high fidelity of the 3d models of your grape vines and the apple trees in the field. And then once we get to some models, we can extract the skeleton is much more like how human described that, oh, yeah, that's my skin, and then I have to shoes and how they grow. And then we just be able to do that in a granular detail with all the needed information, like what's the diameter, or what's the length for each of these branch. And then due to all we can, based on our predefined the pruning criteria, to decide where are the cutting points, so that either a person or maybe a machine, or maybe a robot in the future, can go to the field directly cut based on the information we already get. Yeah, and the good thing is now with this whole kind of a new approach, instead of based on our existing you know, criteria, we can also form all different sets of criteria to really prune it in whatever way we want because that's a digital system. It won't hurt anything rather than using some of the power from you right? And then we can count off a get a difference you though proven the vineyard to take a look which we better serve our purpose. And we are also working with some offer collaborators try to incorporate to the growth models for grape vine. Try to see with different pruning strategy how the group vine or apple trees gonna grow during the growing season. And how I mean for me differently you know, branch structures and maybe different fruits load and the distribution with a hope you know, if we know this information beforehand, we can let the universe to determine what might be the best strategy we want to do as the you Though time progress to the green season, so do you have much more information in advance? Rather than Oh, yeah, I got it just to do the pruning. But that's the best I can do.

Craig Macmillan 27:15

Right? Right, right. So it sounds like that could be kind of an iterative process, you have a robot go through, and you get your 3d model, and you bring it back. And then you develop an algorithm essentially, that says, Keep this, don't keep this keep this, don't keep this, cut it here, cut it there, then you could execute that. Exactly, basically, to the vine.

Yu Jiang 30:29

Yes. Correct.

Craig Macmillan 30:30

And then you could have it grow. And then you can come back the following year, and say, Okay, well, what happened? And you could refine that model over time.

Yu Jiang 30:39

Yes, correct. That that's exactly the concept called a digital twin. Wow. Yeah, we see is a product actually from NASA, used to use that for you know, making the Mars rovers or the moon rovers, because they need to simulate so many different things before they put the actual manufacturing, right. But now we want to adopt these concepts for agriculture, before we do any of the decision making on pruning or harvesting. We want to see how they progress in the digital world, because it just takes us so minimal cost, and then we can have better understanding which way might be the best, we want to move forward.

Craig Macmillan 31:20

Wow, that's really exciting stuff. This technology is probably still in its infancy, I would guess.

Yu Jiang 31:27

Yes. Correct. I mean, although now we have more and more 3d imaging technologies and even more like a loose AI driven approaches. But it still is early stage, we are having some challenges from the field. So that's a reason we are, working hard to make progress. And I hope to share more things, you know, in the coming years with the audience here and hopefully demonstrated to the grape industry someday.

Craig Macmillan 31:53

Yeah, absolutely. Keep going. We're out of time. But I want to what is it one thing you would recommend to grape growers around this kind of topic, these topics, I guess I should say,

Yu Jiang 32:05

Can I share two actually?

Craig Macmillan 32:07

Please yeah, to is great.

Yu Jiang 32:09

Why I really want to share with with all the growers as we are at the point where many of these digital technologies are being more and more available and affordable. So please keep your eyes and the for example, at Cornell, my extension program focuses on the digital agriculture trials for adoption short for data aims to fill in the gap between you know, the growers and the startup companies who deliver those new da tools for production management, and also tried to offer more knowledge base to our growers, they can learn and better use these tools by themselves. So this is very important, as many of these tools go and just a calming and you don't want to miss the opportunity offer using the best of the tool to shop yourself and make better management. The second thing I also really want to share with our audience here is pleased to share all these exciting lands from digital agriculture to our case, to younger generations who are working in your, you know, vineyard or winery. I'm a strong believer the best investment is always you know, for the future generations. If they got excited if the et buy in all these ideas and put more efforts to start, you know, learn and develop new technologies back to agriculture and the food sectors. I believe we're gonna have a sustainable and resilient agriculture in the future for sure.

Craig Macmillan 33:39

That is fantastic. Where can people find out more about you.

Yu Jiang 33:42

you can check on my labs website is a se a i r dot c a l s dot cornell.edu. I will provide you the link so that you can share with the audience.

Craig Macmillan 33:58

Fantastic. So our guest today with Yun Jiang. He's a system professor of systems engineering and data analytics in the School of integrative plant science the whole crypto section of Cornell agritech thank you so much for being on the podcast. This was really fun.

Yu Jiang 34:13

Thanks so much Craig for having me today and as my priority to share our ongoing efforts and research with the broader audience here for grapes. Thanks, everyone.

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“Food disconnect” is a term used to describe the average consumer’s lack of knowledge about where their food comes from and how it’s made. When it comes to wine, most consumers only see the finished product in the grocery store or tasting room!

While everyday agricultural practices may feel ordinary to you, these topics are fascinating to the average consumer, who likely has little to no insight into the block to bottle process behind their glass of wine.

Describing specific practices and why they are important helps customers understand the time and care that went into producing their wine. Sharing your unique story welcomes them to take part in the good feelings that come from supporting a business that is doing better for the people and the planet.

People care about social and environmental issues, and want to support brands that share their values and do something about it.

This week’s Marketing Tip tells the inspiring Sustainable Story of how Bien Nacido Vineyards’ irrigation team demonstrates diligent Water Management through the use of technology and a growth mindset.

Data-Driven Irrigation Water is a valuable resource for all forms of life. But it is limited and must be used responsibly.

Bien Nacido Vineyards’ team of experienced irrigators, led by Miguel Asuncion, take several steps to ensure efficient water use.

To avoid system malfunction and uneven hydration, vineyard stewards must constantly maintain their systems. Bien Nacido’s team performs multiple line flushes each year to keep them clear of dirt and debris, and routinely tests distribution uniformity to ensure consistent hydration across their diverse terrains and elevations.

Vines aren’t heavy water users, and Mother Nature provides a portion of what they do need. Bien Nacido’s irrigators track rainfall, weather data, and soil moisture levels, and estimate evapotranspiration. With this data, they tailor their irrigation schedule based on the land’s needs.

When their data shows their vines need water, the team of irrigators waits until the sun is down. They irrigate during dark hours because without the sun’s heat, the vines and soil can more efficiently absorb and utilize what is applied.

But they believe opportunities for enhancement never end. Bien Nacido partners with experts to help identify even more areas for improvement.

They have created a plan to advance their soil and sap flow monitoring technologies, and seek further optimization opportunities with regular analyses of their irrigation system’s design, filtration, and pressure regulation.

Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Apply for SIP Certified Wine * Center of Effort's Sustainable Story feature in Grape and Wine Magazine * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Sustainable Story | Print * Sustainable Story | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story?

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Lange Twins has implemented individual regenerative practices but now they are asking, what would happen if they stacked them? Kendra Altnow, Sustainability Manager at Lange Twins Family Winery & Vineyards and a 5th generation Lange shares Project Terra. The goals are to increase biodiversity, build and enrich the soil and improve watershed through shifting farming practices, restoration and conservation. They are accomplishing this through grazing livestock, establishing permeant ground cover, reducing tillage, improving native habitat, and reducing reliance on herbicides, insecticides, and fungicides.

Resources: * REGISTER | June 12, 2024 : Regenerative Agriculture in a Production Vineyard 2.0 Tailgate * 121: Regenerative Agriculture (Rebroadcast) * BIFS Field Day Cover Cropping and Livestock Grazing for Regenerative Agriculture * Blue Point Conservation Science * California Department of Farming and Agriculture * Center for Land Based Learning * Community Alliance with Family Farmers * Hedgerow Farms * Kendra Altnow * Kendra Altnow – Instagram * Lange Twins Vineyards Hosts Cover Crop and Livestock Grazing Field Day * Lange Twins * Lange Twins Winery and Vineyard – Instagram * Natural Resource Conservation Service * Paicines Ranch * Xerces Society

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Kendra Altnow she is sustainability manager at Lange Twins family winery and vineyards and she's a fifth generation. Lange. Welcome to the program.

Kendra Altnow 0:09

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Craig Macmillan 0:11

We want to have you on because you folks there at length twins have been doing some really innovative things around regenerative agriculture. And through a project you're calling project Tara, what is project Tara? What's that all about?

Kendra Altnow 0:25

Well, we kind of have two different definitions, I would say a project Terra one is the concise purpose of project Terra is to increase biodiversity building, enrich the soil and improve our watershed through shifting our farming principles and practices, restoration and conservation, all while building the next generation of land stewards. That's what I like to say is the on paper definition of project Terra. But project Terra means something a little bit different to me, it's our vision coming to life. Like many of us, the health of the planet is a top of mind. And a few years ago, I really wanted to see what we could do as a family to contribute to being part of the very complex solution equally as important passing our land to the next generation healthier than it was passed to us. So I really just started reading and I learned that there are lots of changes that we can make. But we have a unique access to something that a lot of other people don't have. And that's our land. And really, I see that our land gives us the greatest opportunity for change. So we started just digging into what those practices look like. And regenerative farming really was something interesting and something very obtainable for us to do.

Craig Macmillan 1:41

What are some of those practices? Because from what I understand from doing research with what you're up to you, you did certain things 10 years ago, and then you brought in some other elements, and then you tried some other elements. Now you're kind of trying to bring them all together, if I understand correctly, what are some of those elements?

Kendra Altnow 1:55

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. I like to say when people come out and come to the farm for tour, that we've been practicing everything in different vineyards, but not necessarily taking those practicing and what regenerative agriculture calls stacking them. So the components of those are reduction of off farm inputs, livestock integration, maintaining permanent ground cover, conservation or reduction in tillage, creation of habitat, which is one of my favorites, and reducing our reliance on herbicides, fungicides and insecticides. So those were all practices that we have been doing. But we said, hey, can we take those and put them together in one pilot vineyard. And that's really the core of what Project Terra is. And for us, it's not just about doing it on that pilot vineyard, but is building the framework to be able to scale it to the other vineyards within our families holdings.

Craig Macmillan 2:56

You mentioned you were excited about this particular area. And I think it's an interesting one, too. And that's habitat.

Kendra Altnow 3:00

Yes, that's my wheelhouse. I love it.

Craig Macmillan 3:02

Yeah. So tell me about that. How does that play into this project?

Kendra Altnow 3:05

Gosh, it's a huge portion. Biodiversity is really a big element of what we need to do here as farmers in general. When my grandfather was farming, he did edge to edge farming. And that really is you didn't see anything green in those vineyards whatsoever. When my dad and uncle came back in 1974, the ranch that they grew up on really looked different the wildlife that they had enjoyed seen. It wasn't there anymore. But the reason why it wasn't there was because the habitat was gone. Without that biodiversity, there was a shift in the ecosystem. And so with that, is this new recognition that we're approaching ag at that system's level, where we're seeing the farm, not just between the rows or from edge to edge, but everything inclusive.

Craig Macmillan 3:52

So how do you do that? If you like, did you take landlords in production? And then set it aside for habitat? Or did you identify areas that could be habitat and then restored them in some fashion? How did you how did you approach that?

Kendra Altnow 4:05

Yeah, and that's, you know, something we've been doing for a long time is habitat restoration, primarily riparian restoration, our family is here on the Mokelumne river. So that's our watershed, and we have unfarmable areas. But we also have areas that were planted that we have taken out of production just because the quality coming off the vineyard wasn't meeting the standards of the winery. So we we kind of have a multiple approach. Over the years, it was just what we could get done. Recently, we worked with point blue conservation science and we have a conservation plan. And that conservation plan takes a look at all of our land that we farm as a whole and has helped us identify areas where we can make improvements that's not only within the vineyards itself by creating maybe filter strips or wildlife corridors, but also where We have maybe a vernal pool area, and what we can do there. So really enhance what is already happening. So it's a little bit of everything I guess is we've, we've had help. But we also just noticed, oh, that area over there isn't great. Let's put a pollinator habitat in.

Craig Macmillan 5:16

And you've been doing as long as you believe that there is some improvements and some stability from increasing the biodiversity on the land.

Kendra Altnow 5:24

Let me take a step back. Biodiversity has definitely increased here on our farm, just the other day, we saw two Bob Cats hanging out on the bridge by our house, that is nothing I saw in my childhood. So I can definitely tell you that there has been a shift because there are animals and birds that we haven't seen that are coming back to our area, those animals and birds are what we see. And so can you imagine what we can't see? So what we're making the impact on? Who knows, right? I don't I'm not out there every day with a microscope looking. But by these bigger animals being here, I have to say that the other ones are here, too.

Craig Macmillan 6:04

And do you think that leads to a more stable? agro ecosystem?

Kendra Altnow 6:08

Absolutely. 100%

Craig Macmillan 6:10

100%, you had mentioned also things around fungicide, insecticide herbicide reduction. How does that play into what kind of practices and how does that play into the stability of the project overall?

Kendra Altnow 6:20

we just finished reading a book. And there's a lot to be said about soil health, right. And that's a big topic, especially in ag these days, I think that we're a lot better than we have been. That's what sustainability is all about, right? Is continuous improvement, really digging into the health of the soil makes us recognize that maybe there's more we can do. From my perspective, having biodiversity above ground and below ground is only going to help us not just in our vineyard and the production of the wine grapes, but also as a whole for everything around it. I'm not sure if that answered your question. Sometimes my brain goes off in tangents.

Craig Macmillan 6:57

No, I think I think it's the right idea, I think what you're getting at is by looking at things as being integrated, looking at from a system standpoint, where everything affects everything else changes that make over here, make changes over here. And those can be beneficial changes, they don't have to be negative changes, necessarily.

Kendra Altnow 7:12

And I think also, it's such a long term result, right. So it takes a very long time, for us to see the true benefits of what we're doing today. I always say, Gosh, I wish we would have started this, you know, 10 years ago, because then I would feel better about what we're doing. Now you have to have patience. And I think that's been the biggest learning for us or for myself in particular, is that you're not going to change your soil structure or your soil health or anything that has to do with the environment, it takes time. And it takes that dedication. And it's not always the easiest path forward either. So you really have to sit back and realize following that vineyard, for a certain period of time might seem against what we would typically do. But in the long run, it's going to benefit what we're doing, if you understand what I'm saying,

Craig Macmillan 8:09

Yeah, I do I do I change this to soil health improvements. And so structured water holding capacity and things like that. Those do take a long, long, long, long time. But you have to do it if you're gonna get there, you know, and I think what a lot of folks are finding out from the interviews that I'm doing, you know, you may go like, Oh, my God, you know, it's gonna take 10 years, well, 10 years can fly by in terms of like a region, you know, just do it stick to it part of that cover cropping. So you folks have been doing cover cropping for a long time. And I'm guessing that the decisions that you've made in terms of what to plant, where to plant it, maybe even how to plant it, how to terminate it, and probably evolved over time. Can you tell me a little bit about your cover cropping, philosophy management, how that's changed over time?

Kendra Altnow 8:51

So my very simple philosophy is the soil is better served covered period, I believe that not only in our own homes, at home, in our backyards, and our front yards, but also within the vineyard. So that's an aside from how we make our decisions on what cover crops we plant. When it comes to cover crops. I'm sure you know this, they're super complex, there's so many different species out there. And they all are very specific on what you're trying to do for typically the health of your of your land or your soil. So what we always look at first, is the vigor of the vine because we want to ensure that we're not taking away from the growth of the vine and then regional erosion. So those would be like the two starting points for us. And then from there, we combined with the soil type, if we're going to be grazing or not grazing and then the ecological benefits so it's kind of a stacking just in decision making. And then the way we choose what vineyards it goes into, we we across the board, try to get it out. Timing is a big thing for us in all of our Lange Twins family vineyards, except in the vineyards that the mower can't fit down the rows. So it's a very operational decision on that, that side.

Craig Macmillan 10:10

What are some of the variables that you've been trying to manipulate? And what were some of the plant choices that you made to achieve those goals?

Kendra Altnow 10:19

Erosion control is probably our biggest number one cover crop choice that we do or a multiplex this species type, that's something that I would have to ask Chris and Charlie, or even Maria, on our team, they handled the decisions of that. But I'm involved in more of why. So I'm sitting here looking out my window at one of our vineyards, and we have a runoff issue. And so we made, you know, a very spot decision to plant a an erosion control mix, just because it's not planted right now. And we saw two years ago, or, actually, it wasn't two years ago was last winter, it was just gosh, the amount of soil going into the soil was absurd. So what can we do about it? So a lot of it is knowing your land as well, and making the decisions that way?

Craig Macmillan 11:07

So you're using different things in different places. So for some areas, it's all about erosion. Other places, it's about probably water management,

Kendra Altnow 11:14

Or, you know, your nitrogen fixing is a big decision making as well, depending on the vineyards.

Craig Macmillan 11:22

Oh,that reminds me, so I hadn't thought of before, have you been doing any, like pre post testing or control treatment kind of testing, as you do these things

Kendra Altnow 11:30

For cover crops?

Craig Macmillan 11:32

For cover crops or anything else.

Kendra Altnow 11:34

We do a lot. I mean, we do a lot of soil testing, is what we've started doing. And we do that not only just from a short term reason of seeing what's happening right now. But in these areas where we are doing no sustainable ag versus regenerative AG, we have started long term analysis so we can see what really is going to be happening in the vineyard long term with the decisions that we're making today. And does it make sense. So does it make sense for us to do it? Well, maybe it's not making a huge impact on that level, but it will be financially. So there are a lot of tracking that we are doing, because we need to make sure that it makes sense from a sustainability point of view.

Craig Macmillan 12:21

What do you been finding out?

Kendra Altnow 12:22

That's a great question. I It depends. I mean, it really depends on where, and it also depends on what and that's what's so tricky about farming. There isn't a playbook. Right. So what is working on one vineyard isn't necessarily working on another, for example, we have a vermicompost trial going on right now. And it's interesting, we've set it up. And we've done all of the analysis. And what we found is that different phases of the growth of the vineyard, the vermicompost, made a difference. But at the end of the growing season, everything caught up. So it's going to be interesting to see this year, what happens because is there going to be a true difference year after year. And then we'll add in do we add vermicompost again, so what we're trialing right now, which is really fun, is taking our pumice from the winery and feeding it to red worms to see if we can then reapply it out in the vineyards. What we don't know about that is if what is in the vermicompost by the worms, eating our promise is something that is going to benefit the vineyard. So benefit is in the sense of we're closing the loop on our promise, but it may not actually have any value to the soil in the vines themselves over a traditional form of compost feeding. Worms are really fun.

Craig Macmillan 13:45

I'm just gonna ask about that. So you're making worm compost on site?

Kendra Altnow 13:48

No, we're not. So there's a neighbor of ours, my cousin in law found I went out to visit him and I asked him if he would be interested in trial doing a trial with us. And he said, Sure, so we're taking pumice over to him from the winery during crush, and then he is running the trial for us. If it is something that becomes viable for us to do then we would transition it and start it on our own.

Craig Macmillan 14:15

Which reminds me of something else. You are working with a number of collaborators, you're not doing this in a vacuum and we'll transition into grazing was part of that but like what are some of the collaborators here you have your your neighbor, you're obviously working with probably other agencies or other other companies or their specialists who was part of the team here outside of Lange Twins.

Kendra Altnow 14:36

Oh, so many when I started in this role, going back a little bit is I you know, I didn't go to school for farming or winemaking and or sustainability for that matter. And so I took a lot of learning, calling and asking questions. Honestly, some of the organizations I reached out to first I was Point blue conservation science I hopped on, you know, the internet and I started just Googling people and seeing who would be interested in coming out and giving me a hand, they have been awesome because they really have introduced me not only to a whole host of other individuals within the that side of the world. So I would say the habitat side of the world, they did our holistic conservation plan for us. That really is what I would say is my strategic plan on that side of my role. From there, I work with the Center for land based learning their SLEWS program, in particular, the kids from that program come out, and they actually implement some of our projects for us. And that's great, because that really is helping that next generation of land stewards in my mind, hopefully, some of them will come back and want to do this and do it in a fashion that is smart for both themselves and for the environment. NRCS Of course, Xerces, East Bay Mud, calf Valley grazing, hedgerow farms, Megan Phillips, Kelly Melville, you name it, I have like talked to all of them. And really, they have all been instrumental in us putting this together and moving it forward.

Craig Macmillan 16:22

I think it's an excellent transition into grazing.

Kendra Altnow 16:26

Yes, that's fine. I love graze

Craig Macmillan 16:28

you love it. Okay, cool. Well, here we go. If I understood correctly, from some things that I read, you folks are looking at moving into year round grazing. Can you tell me a little bit about the evolution, how it started, how you kind of got into it and how you got to where you're at now and kind of where you see yourself going in the future? Because it sounds like you actually are moving you're not done yet is what it kind of sounds like to me if I understood.

Kendra Altnow 16:51

We're just getting started. Grazing came to us through Charlie's sStar, there were sheep grazing and alfalfa field next to his home vineyard. And he offered the grazer to come into his vineyard for feed. And he said, guys, they did a great job. What do you think? And so we trialed it on 100 acres, and it was great. They came in, they did their job, it was the winter pass, and good to go. We loved what they did. We learned a little bit. And then the following year, it was ramped up big time. So we had a contract raiser come in. And we had probably 2000 to 3000 sheep everywhere, literally everywhere. And that winter was really raining. So it was difficult to get them into the vineyard. Some of them were flooded out. And it was just a challenge all around. And then when the rubber hit the road in the springtime, they got a better contract and left. So we didn't necessarily truth be told, have the best experience the second year. And it was logistically the main reason why. So the third year, we wanted to approach it a little differently. And I was at a young farmers and ranchers dinner and was approached and said, Hey, I had know someone that would love to do vineyard grazing. So great. So we sat down and talked. And what we realized is that what was going to work best for us is for them to be a true extension of our team. So not someone that's just going to come in and then move on to someone else, but someone that is going to be dedicated to working with us, because that is what we found was most important is that we're working together. So I see Valley grazing and Ross Mulrooney as not a separate from length twins, but he is part of length twins in the sense of being our sheep herder, right. So he's the guy, the boots on the ground, moving the sheep, the health of the sheep. And we're just helping direct them in that. And that honestly, if I could give anyone advice, and I know this can't happen for everyone based on size, or lots of other complexities, that has been a saving grace for us, because it's just, he, he knows what we're working towards. And we know what his needs are as well.

Craig Macmillan 19:14

You're working collaboratively. He has needs the sheep have needs you have needs can we find a way to have those things meet that makes a better outcome leads to a better outcome. Without question, yes, it sounds like you started with kind of the traditional, hey, let's get some animals, let's turn them loose. They're gonna go run around and do their thing. Oh, they're done. Now they leave. My experience with grazing is that it can get much more complex than that, and can lead to some even better outcomes when the management becomes a little bit more intensive, which it sounds like you're kind of moving towards is that right?

Kendra Altnow 19:52

Right. I mean for us, our goal is to have four passes a year with the sheep so it's It's a tool for sure. That's how we see this. It's a practice that we're going to implement within the vineyard. That's no different than mowing or herbicide spray, for example. So for us, the number one reason why we started it, there's lots of factors but was for that biodiversity in the soil and the soil microbiome, we know that animals do make a difference. So that was a really big factor. The second factor is back to the herbicides, if we can cut down on that, that's also going to help that soil microbiome third is the fossil fuels. Right. So by employing the sheep in the vineyards and integrating them in, we are cutting on fossil fuel use by all of the tractor passes that we're not doing anymore, etc. Sure, at first, it was like, Yay, winter weed control. This is awesome. But then you start scratching your head and peeling back the layers, you recognize that there's lots of other benefits of having animal integration. I mean, I sometimes they were just going back before my grandfather, right? They had animal integration, they actually had dual crops within their vineyards. And so it's like, we're going back to what we knew our ancestors. And we're applying it today, but in a modern way, with changes, of course, because we're not homesteaders.

Craig Macmillan 21:27

So we're talking, you said four passes. So what, what's the timing? What's the timing of the other grazing passes.

Kendra Altnow 21:34

So the first grazing pass for us starts post harvest. So three weeks after the vineyard has been harvested, we can move in the sheep. And really, this is to clean up weeds, vegetative debris, and the leaves. The second pass is the cover crop and weed management on our rotation. Typically, what ends up happening is why when they're done with the first pass, they're going to go start kind of all over again, right. And so now they're going to the cover crop and weed management. And that is what really this time of the year is. So they're out there mowing the cover crop, or they're really happy sheep, because they have tons of feed and getting the berms, we always focus on the berms. That's really important for us, especially if we're if we're not using any herbicides, it's really important for us to pay attention to the berms. The third pass is cover crop and weed management again, and this is kind of when we have the blind canopy management happening suckering chute hygiene and leaf removal. So it's in that spring where springtime, where there they can get in, they're not going to do a lot of damage, and they're still going to do good. And then the last pass is summer, so forth passes time or weed control. We are using these only and our trellis systems that are high wire. And so the Sheep can't really do that damage, because they can't reach up into the canopy and make a huge impact.

Craig Macmillan 22:57

And that was something that I mean, you you folks may have some experience with this. Maybe too early still, you know, the trend has been towards shorter and shorter, lower, lower trellising for a long time. And it's always been Oh, wine quality is better when the trellis is lower. And then we have these systems here where you will Yeah, but if I train a little bit higher, a little these other benefits that I can get is your winemaking staff getting feedback at this point. Are you seeing anything in terms of the cultural differences between the more traditional trellis and a higher wire trellis.

Kendra Altnow 23:26

I can give you a very specific example. We have single vineyard wines. And on our single vineyard wines, they keep all the lots separate. And we have an older cab vineyard. And then we have a high wire cab vineyard that is a little bit younger. The older one is California sprawl, it was planted in Gosh 1980s. It's our winemakers favorite vineyard. And along comes our River Ranch vineyard. And it's high wire and it is mechanically pruned and it is grazed and very different than what they 38 is. And I'll tell you what, they love that River Ranch cap and made it as a single vineyard wine. And so that to me goes to show that it can work both ways.

Craig Macmillan 24:09

It can work both ways. This is so fascinating. We could just go on forever. But is there one thing regarding kind of your experiences with all of this, all of this integrative stuff, is there one thing that you tell our listeners that you would recommend to them? As far as this goes this area?

Kendra Altnow 24:25

Oh man, I have so many recommendations. That could be like a whole thing on its own.

Craig Macmillan 24:32

You're gonna write a book?

Kendra Altnow 24:34

Probably. So my one recommendation is every little bit helps. And I truly believe that and that is something that you can do not only within your vineyard or your business, but you can do that at home. So my passion came from my family, because we have been farming sustainably in a really big way. However, my practices at home for example, I really got ignited because I saw a picture of all the plastic in the ocean and I had a heart attack. And I knew at that point, I couldn't use plastic bags anymore, for example. And that's a true story. I think that even though everyone around me might not have changed that practice, I know that that little bit does help. Right. So I think that is really important. I think the other important thing, when you're talking about farming, is the mindset shift. Farmers have been farming and doing things the same way for years and years and years. And it really takes forward thinking or openness to be able to change the way you're doing something. Because it's harder, it's harder, not only to train your team, that it's going to be done differently. But now you're using another tool, or introducing something different that hasn't been done before. So there's a learning curve. And when you have 100 million things going on, that one new thing feels like 100 billion pounds. And I think that it's really important that you have a cheerleader, which that's what I am, is the cheerleader to say, Hey, I think that this is really interesting. Do you think that we can implement not all of it at once, but do you think we can handle parts of it. And even that one small step is going to get us to where we want to go. And I would come in very different from, say, Erin and Phillip, my brother and cousin, they've been entrenched in farming for years, I kind of have this outsider's perspective where I don't necessarily know all of the logistical nightmare that might happen. Or I don't know all of the little idiosyncrasies that happen. All I see is this awesome opportunity. And then they bring me back to reality. And then we meet in the middle, and then we implement something. But I think if it was someone that didn't have that, like, I think we could do this, it wouldn't come to the forefront, because we're just so tasked on what we're already doing, and making sure that we're getting it done, that doesn't really give us time to do anything different. And I think that to me, has been the biggest learning. And maybe that the tidbit that I could give others is that be be that cheerleader or somehow find yourself to be that cheerleader for yourself, because it really will make a difference.

Craig Macmillan 27:41

I think that's great. I mean, every every little bit counts and being a cheerleader. Yeah. Sharing your excitement and your successes. I think it's huge.

Kendra Altnow 27:50

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's funny, Craig, between you and I, or if you want to put this out there I you know, I don't have a science background. I don't have a farming background. I don't have anything like that type of background. My background is sociology. And for for me, I just know that we can do better. And we have an opportunity to make positive change. And so I come in with they always call me rainbows and sunshine. Because that's that's like, really, for me, that's what it's about right is, is how can we make a difference, and I dried down I5. And I'm like holy smokes, we are the size of a gnat when it comes to farming in this world. And how to like I sit there and think, wow, I am I'm working hard to make change on my tiny little farm. Just think if we could get this farmer who has 30,000 acres to also make that change. And I think that's where it's at is it's got to start. I see. I mean, we're not small in the sense of tiny, tiny. We're midsize but gosh, there's some big farmers out there. And so sometimes it's like, Am I really making a difference? Like this is on 450 acres right now we could expand it. We're planning on scaling it up. Yeah. Okay, let's forget about those 30,000 acre farmers and that we're only a tiny bit to this very complex issue or complexity that's happening out there. Sure. Yes, let's do this. Because ultimately, it's going to be better for the next generation because they're going to be out there hopefully farming too.

Craig Macmillan 29:25

Yeah. And technology and innovation has its ways of being transmitted. Yes. And being adopted. More broadly. It takes time. And it also takes different systems. It takes different systems and that's one of the things that's intriguing is we've seen things that like you said that we tried things in the past and then we moved away for various reasons. And then you say hey, wait, there's benefits. Let's go back and try this again. Or people say Well, that isn't gonna work on my system because my system is so different. Within time goes by and there's proof of concept and then it well maybe this would work and we see changes all the time being out there as a leader Kendra, I think is part of the part of the solution and you're doing that.

Kendra Altnow 29:59

And I think honestly like what we can do for our farm, and this is what makes regenerative and we could go into that as a whole nother one podcast. But I look at sustainability and regenerative, which is so great about sustainability in my mind is it's not one size fits all, you're making the decisions for your farm based on what you can do in the best possible way. So someone might still fully believe in full tilling and that's all good and great. I'm not judging you, but they might be excellent in water conservation. And we have a lot of room to grow in that right so I like that's what I think is so awesome about farming is that there is no one single way of doing things and there is no right or wrong, but I always believe that there is room for improvement.

Craig Macmillan 30:52

Exactly. Where can people find out more about you?

Kendra Altnow 30:56

Well, Langetwins.com will have information about the family winery and the vineyards and laying twins on Instagram has tidbits about sustainability and if you really want to see all of my lovely day to day posts you can follow me at Kendra underscore Jean nine you get a little bit of sustainability and a lot of benefit family animals.

Craig Macmillan 31:22

That's fantastic. So our guest today has been Kendra Altnow she is sustainability manager at length twins family winery and vineyards and she's a fifth generation Lang. Thanks for being on the podcast has been a really fun conversation. Thanks Kendra.

Kendra Altnow 31:35

Gosh, I hope so you're welcome.

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

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Have you ever been asked “What’s the difference between organic and sustainable?”

Have you seen farming operations that have both certifications?

In this Marketing Tip, you’ll learn how Certified Organic and sustainable compare, and get some ideas for engaging in a conversation about what your certification means.

Sustainable and Organic Overlap There is a lot of overlap between the programs.

Both programs are committed to environmental preservation and regeneration through practices that address:

Biodiversity and Habitat
Soil Health and Conservation
Integrated Pest Management
Water Quality

Why Get Both? A lot of SIP Certified farmers are also Certified Organic. Even if they’re not certified by both, many of their farming practices overlap the programs.

Since many organic practices are sustainable and vice-versa, an operation can attain both certifications without many complications.

When a winegrower gets both Certified Organic and SIP Certified sustainable they demonstrate their commitment to environmental preservation and beyond. It also appeals to eco-conscious consumers who consider both certifications when making purchasing decisions.

How to Explain Sustainability The 3 P’s of Sustainability What makes sustainability unique is that in addition to addressing farming practices, it also looks at the social and economic aspects of the operation.

A good way to remember this is the 3 P’s of Sustainability: People, Planet, and Prosperity.

You can tie several practices that your business engages in every day back to the 3 P’s:

People: Community and neighbor communication plans; Health and retirement benefits for employees; Competitive wages; Engaging in charitable gift giving and services.
Planet: Integrated Pest Management strategies like cultural, biological, and mechanical control; Planting cover crops to protect water quality, control erosion, and provide habitat for beneficial insects; Using alternative sources of energy to reduce reliance on fossil fuels.
Prosperity: Creating and sticking to a budget; Analyzing trends in sales, purchasing, and resource usage; Staying up to date with the latest information and technology; Being aware of upcoming regulations.
Overlap with Organic.

Tell a Story Stories make facts more memorable. You can tell your customers that your brand practices social responsibility, but without sharing a specific example of what that looks like, you haven’t really told them much!

Next time someone asks you, “What’s the difference between organic and sustainable?” try to share a specific sustainable example from the People or Prosperity categories:

The Journey to Net-Zero 3 P's Category: Prosperity

When the team at Center of Effort looked at their energy use, they discovered many areas where they could adjust to be more efficient.

Over time, these changes have compounded to have tremendous energy savings:

· Run their cooling system during off-peak hours.

· Replace a 15-year-old chiller with a newer, more efficient one that allows for selective tank cooling.

· Install a remote-operated quick-draw door in the production room to address insulation losses.

Since making all of these changes, their winery and hospitality areas are now 100% powered by the sun. In fact, they now run net-negative and send generated power back to the grid!

Did you see Center of Effort's Sustainable Story feature in Grape and Wine Magazine?

Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate

SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet

Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year

Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace

Vineyard Team – Become a Member

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Trying to manage the weeds in your vineyard? John Roncoroni, Weed Science Farm Advisor Emeritus with the University of California Cooperative Extension, Agriculture and Natural Resources covers control practices including biological, mechanical, cultural, chemical, and perhaps in the future, electrocution. Although weeds rarely compete with vines, they can host insect and vertebrate pests and get in the way of pruning crews, increasing labor costs. Listen in for John’s number one tip to better manage weeds in your vineyard.

Resources: * 128: A New Focus on Weed Management (Rebroadcast) * 26th IPM Seminar #1: Sustainable Weed Management for Vineyards and Vineyard Ponds * Herbicide-resistant weeds challenge some signature cropping systems (Journal article) * John Roncoroni * MAINTAINING LONG-TERM MANAGEMENT: Herbicide-resistant weeds challenge some signature cropping systems * Post-harvest Weed Control with Napa RCD and John Roncoroni (video) * Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand – Western SARE (online courses) * University of California Integrated Pest Management Integrated Weed Management * Vineyard Floor Management: Steel in the Field (video)

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is John Roncoroni. He is Weed Science Farm advisor emeritus with UC Cooperative Extension, UC Agriculture Natural Resources, and we're going to talk about cultural control of weeds in vineyards today. Thanks for being on the podcast, John.

John Roncoroni 0:13

Now you bet, Creg, thank you for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:16

We met with we'll start with kind of a basic foundation, what would you say is the definition of cultural weed control? Maybe How does it differ from other forms of weed management?

John Roncoroni 0:25

cultural weed control as part of an integrated pest management program, you know, we have basically cultural mechanical, sometimes they're put together sometimes they're split, we have biological, which is much more important, I think, in insects than it is in weeds. Now, we talk about biological control of weeds just a little bit to show how it fits in with all this too, is that you know, when you see that rust growing on a malba, or cheese weed plant in California, people say, Well, maybe that can control and you can see sometimes it really weakens the weeds. But the one reason that doesn't work here very well as it does in other places is the same reason why we can grow such great grapes and make great wines in California is because it doesn't rain in the summertime, if it rained in the summertime, like it does. In many other areas, that moisture level would stay up and we probably have a better chance of controlling Malba. We do use biological control of weeds in more landscape like range land type at large areas, but really on any kind of agricultural situation where we're looking at control in one spot, it really doesn't work that well. Even with star thistle we be talking about people wanting to put our application of of weevils for start thistle. Well, they're out there, and they're on a larger scale. So that's biological, much more important in entomology than in Weed Science, a chemical control, obviously, the use of chemicals, either conventional or organic chemicals or control. And then we have mechemical or cultural you know, cultural weed control to me is using the utilizing the plants that are there or sheep in areas of the San Joaquin Valley that used to use ducks or geese to pull out Johnson grass rhizomes, yeah, we're utilizing sheep quite a bit more. Now. Of course, mechanical we're looking at when you look at something like a mower, right, a mower is mechanical and cultural because when you mow, you're leaving some plants. So you're mechanically mowing them down. But culturally, you're leaving plant where something like French flower, maybe a blade or or you know, one of the the weed knives are all the different moving wheels, maybe more considered mechanical.

Craig Macmillan 2:30

Let's talk about mechanical a little bit. There was a book I don't know if it's still in print. And it was a SARE book. And it was called steel in the field. And the author's thesis or premise or idea was if you drive around farm country, no matter what the crop is, there's always a graveyard of old implements, just parked just parked there, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

John Roncoroni 2:51

Oh, god. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 2:54

And his his point was, all of those things were technologies that someone had come up with. And then the individual farmer, probably then made modifications to those for their site for their crop for their soil, then the herbicide era came on. And that wisdom was lost, basically. And the argument was, hey, maybe we can bring that that idea back. And I mean, this goes back to like the 80s, early 90s. It's happening, it's happened. What are some of your favorite technologies in terms of cultivation, mechanical weed control, and some of the limitations, some of the plants that works well with other situations where it doesn't? What's your experience been?

John Roncoroni 3:39

I love talking about that, Creg, is it you know, talking about using mechanical control, and then and then going into chemicals, and now going back, it's almost like I talked to people about chemical control itself. When I started, Roundup wasn't glyphosate was a new thing. And we used it very judiciously. And I tell people, it's almost like, I learned to drive with a stick shift. I had to learn all these other things. Well, after that people learned to drive automatics. Right, because they knew one way to do it. Well, now that we're back to using stick shift, it's a whole lot easier for me, because I remember now people have to read or write. It's, it's the same thing with the mechanical. And when I started a Davis, you know, in the early 80s, we probably first came to work in vineyards in Napa, close to Davis, about 85, 86. And at that point, there was a lot less drip irrigation, a lot more dry farming, and a lot more French plowed. One of the reasons was we didn't have drip irrigation. I mean, we all want deep roots, but you're going to have more shallow roots with drip irrigation. And that was one of the reasons we moved to chemicals away from this big pasture. We always had a blade, right something like to drop a name a Clemens blade, which we all know what that is. It just cuts. You know, one of the problems with that is if the soil is too moist, then it's going to cut and go right back. And there's been a lot of innovation. My colleague Marcela Moretti, a But Oregon State's done a lot of testing with different kinds of machines. You know, one of the things about mechanical or even like mowers is that so few growers have mowers?

Craig Macmillan 5:11

When you say mower? You mean an in row mower?

John Roncoroni 5:13

Yeah, I mean inrow mower. All right. And I'm sorry, I when I talk about weeds in vineyards, because I tell people I've made my whole career out of about three

Craig Macmillan 5:21

Three to six inches.

John Roncoroni 5:24

I have about a foot and a half. Right? Sometimes I'm up to four feet, right. So that's where my whole career is right there. And that we talk about when we talked about what we're doing in the middle is with cover cropping. That's a whole other podcast and probably, I mean, I've done cover crop work over the years with some large IPM grants. I did quite Elmore and some other things. Zalem and Jim McDonald Yeah, no, I'm talking about just under vine we're thinking. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 5:53

All right we're under vine.

John Roncoroni 5:54

Talk about being a very specific expert - four feet. At the most.

Craig Macmillan 6:01

I got it. I get it.

John Roncoroni 6:02

You know, very few growers are using mowers we have the big bladed mowers and also we'll have a straight trimmer. I was trying to do some string trimmer work, but just using a little weed eater. My old friend, Mike Anderson, who was the superintendent or basically ran the oppo research station said that I could use a string trimmer in one of their vineyards over his dead body. And I was like, you don't want any girdling in those vines. So I know, there's been a lot of apprehension. There are some other kinds of mowers very, very, very few growers have mowers, from what I've just done some surveys, I've done one because you have to go back over and over and over, right? And then everything has been weighed against, well, we can just spray mowers or one, you know, there's several different and I can't remember all the trade names. But you know, there's some of the basic technology. Yes, there's some that do some stirring of the soils, you know, with blades that are perpendicular to the soil, right. So they're, they're stirring it, there's what we used to call and when I worked in bean weed control, Lilla stuns, which are wheels that turn sort of at a 45 degree angle to stir the soil. There's, you know, power driven machines, there's just ones that ride along and there's blades, there's, you know, there are so many, and it really depends on the kind of soil you have, you know, our rocky is sometimes the place where we put grapes are not a place where you could put tomatoes, right in times, shallow soil, hillsides, kind of cultivation, can you can you do cultivation? Can you do light cultivation without getting you know, soil movement? Can you even do it? Is it allowed by, you know, some rules about land use in those areas. So, there's a lot of things that go into mechanical and again, from my perspective, the weeds you have.

Craig Macmillan 7:54

I like this point here, because I think put to put things into kind of a general sense to guide things. We have blades that basically cut just below the surface. So that's cutting off the top of the plant from the bottom of it for certain kinds of plants that will kill it or control it. Then we have things like a French plow, which is a burying it's a true plow. Yeah, it's flipping soil, picking it up and flip flopping it over. Then we have the sturer. So you mentioned that little stun the central lines and other example, sun flowers. That's what they do. Yeah. Yeah. Things like that. My missing one.

John Roncoroni 8:26

mowers.

Craig Macmillan 8:27

mowers, okay. Yeah.

John Roncoroni 8:29

So that, you know, then there are a lot of variations on those combinations. It just amazing for me, and I follow a few of the manufacturers and get to see like on Twitter X, whatever, to see the videos that they're posting on LinkedIn. You know, it's just amazing to me what they're doing and the innovation that's going into those. One of the things that my again my colleague Marcel HomeReady, up at Dr. Moretti up at Oregon State talks about making sure your tractor is big enough for some of these, you know, hydraulic using, right, but one of the things we always used to talk about was, you know, the use of gas well, I know there's a lot more use and we're moving more into electric tractors, and those sorts of things. But when it comes to mechanical, really doing a good job of mechanical weed control with those some of those, you're going to have to have electric or gas you're going to have to have a big tractor. They're not going to be like a you know, a little ATV with a nifty 50 sprayer spraying herbicides right you're gonna need some hefty equipment in a lot of them not always.

Craig Macmillan 9:33

Let's start with weed knife. That's a very popular technology you see it oh yeah all over the place. What are the kinds of weeds that that's good for controlling and under what conditions it doesn't work well and under what kind of conditions does it not work well?

John Roncoroni 9:47

And I don't know the areas and passive as well as I know Napa I was brought a while but I would tell the growers you know, using a weed knife in Carneros you have about four days from when the soil goes from being too wet to being too dry. I have heavy clay soils, it holds moisture and it just. Yeah, exactly. And I'm sure there are areas like that, you know, and it can't, you can successfully cultivate down there, but it's tough, you need the timing, it's so important. If you're going to wet that soil just goes right back with that blade, right you cut through and the roots are able to tell back in, you know, if it's too dry, it's really going to be a rough ride. Because you're not going to go too deep, it's going to work well on some smaller annual weeds, which, you know, a lot of our weeds are, you know, some of the grasses with their net have a root ball sometimes are harder than just a small annual broadleaf plant, you know, you're going to have some problems, especially with something like malware, cheese weed that that grow very large. And depending on when you doing it something like cheese weed is and rye grass and Fillory, while I mentioned them are the first weeds to germinate in the fall. So by the time you get in a little bit later, they may be too big to really do a very good job on.

Craig Macmillan 10:59

Are their soils where we die for it's particularly well?

John Roncoroni 11:03

I would say you know, in less than heavy clay soil and not complete sand, a sandy loam soil, I think that holds some moisture, you know, it was able to get in anything, I think it's not a complete stand or a real heavy clay, they do a nice job, but the weeds can't be too big. And again, it's that timing and you know, with vineyards, it seems to think everything happens at once right time when you may be in having to do some sort of insect spray or mold spray, the same time you should be out there cultivating so just and it takes a while to do a good cultivation job.

Craig Macmillan 11:35

The speed that you're rolling is really important. You want to be slower ride faster.

John Roncoroni 11:40

Well, and Dr. Moretti has done this work there is an optimum speed. If you go too slow, then you really don't do a good job of cutting. If you go too fast, you miss some. And maybe this is where some of the electric AI technology can help. You don't want to cut the vines. Right, so you have this pull away, that keeps the weeds, the weeds will go right next to the vines, which you know can be a problem. We'll be talking about other situations with little vertebrate pets.

Craig Macmillan 12:06

I'm kind of getting astray here a little bit, but I No, no, but I think this is an important question. So choosing what I do and how I do it, we go back to the other technologies, Why care about weeds? Right? Why care about you know, I had I had a vineyard once that had been an oak field. And it was direct planted own rooted sprinkler system that was planted in 1976 I got the vineyard 1993 out of heavy clay soil, and I would irrigate with sprinklers twice a summer, and that oak grass would grow up into the fruit zone up into the canopy. But it would dry out. And it completely choked out everything else I had, I had no other real issues. And we would mow the middles. And I remember people going oh my god, you got all this issue, you need decent herbicide, you think grass out of the middle because the grass is gonna. And like these vines were super vigorous. They were tons of crop. I mean, I had to crop thinner. And so I started asking myself, well, how much competition? Is this really doing? Are there particular weeds that we should see? And you're like, wow, that's gonna be a competitor for water, nutrients and others where we go, No, I don't really want it there. But I'm probably not going to dig my vines.

John Roncoroni 13:13

So Craig, this is the eternal question when it comes to this. And it really depends on where you grow your grapes, right? If your goal is to get 25 tons of grapes, if you're somewhere near Bakersfield won't offend anybody, but they're looking more for tonnage. Right. And I've gotten a lot of flack for using our premium grape situations, we're not always looking for maximum tonnage. Right. And I don't know that the problem with weeds and if you hear me speak about weeds, I rarely have ever talked about direct competition between weeds and grape vines. Now, there are some exceptions, you know, when we were looking at that balance between irrigation and getting the deficit, irrigation, right, getting those maximum flavors into those grapes. So we may be right and a little low with our water in August or September, near the end. And we see that especially, I don't know so much about about I know, part of the areas where we are with the vineyard team there that they gave, we can get these howling north winds, right? Right. And you can in a very short time, you can turn some very great, expensive grapes into really great expensive raisins, right, getting that water in at that time of year. So having any kind of like flu Velen, which is really just covers the whole area of Napa and Sonoma. I know it's moving around some other areas. But you know, people say well, how much water does it use? And my old friend Rhonda Smith used always asked me well, how much water is it used? I go, we don't have crop coefficients for all the crops. It's hard to know which you know which weeds grow, how much water they use. And then the other thing too, is that if we're looking for consistency in a vineyard, and only half the vineyard is covered with that weeds where we're gonna put two too much water in one area and not enough in the other. Isn't that different? So it's competition for that sort of thing. And of course, young vines, right when we have young vines with big weeds and that that oak grass that you had, if you had young vines, you probably wouldn't have to be worried about being a grape grower very long, right?

Craig Macmillan 15:17

You have seen that young, really healthy barley cover crop?

John Roncoroni 15:21

Oh, yeah, it's it's tough for first three years. But like talking about establishments, it's really important, no matter what you do to keep the grapes sort of weed, not weed free, but really keeping the competition down. And then late in the summertime, but the rest of the time. It's other things that I've talked about these, it's one of those things where you ask people, you know, raise their hand if they have this problem. It's 50%. Yes. 50%. No. And that's voles. And I tell people, I thought that when I was in Napa, I think 30% of the growers do weed control strictly for vole protection. Because those nasty little marmots can they can girdle a grape. And I know one vineyard and Carneros they couldn't get in and do some work. Someone told me that one year they lost one in five vines. Wow. And they're not coming back. Right? That's, that's bad. Yeah. So you know, it can be a problem. We found this when we were working with mow and blow technology years ago, looking at cutting cover crop and throwing it on the vine. The Weed control was fantastic. But in my whole time, working in vines from 1985. And, you know, until today, I've never been in a vineyard, except in this trial, where I saw voles running between the rose in the middle of the day. Right, they were just happy there was so many they kind of had to get out just to get a breath of fresh air, they use those tunnels, you know, just runway so that they were protected from that, you know, the birds of prey, which you know, can help. And I people always ask about that. But again, we have that pest and prey cycle that the voles may come in and do a lot of damage, before they get a chance to be taken. And then it depends on what your neighbors doing and how effected the birds are. This is a question that I our new vertebrate pest person, Brianna Martineco in Napa who she took my office, not my place, right. So we we about a weed scientist. And one of the questions I've asked is, you know, how much of an area around the vines? Do we have to keep clean, so that the birds have a chance and the voles stay scared? You know, that's kind of question, you know, especially as an emeritus, you can ask these questions. And, you know, let the new people answer them. You know, the other thing and I've talked about this is in a rare occasion, you know, one of the things that we do you see people, anytime I'm out in the field later in the season, I talked to a grape grower, while we're out there, they're pulling those leaves off so they can get more air movement. Well, if you get some tall weeds like that, you know, the oak grass that was growing, you know, are you going to have restricted air movement? Are you going to have higher moisture content? Is that going to increase your pathogen pressure it can, doesn't always happen. The other thing too is having, you know, high grass can cause in frost prone areas, you know, if you're not getting that radiation from clean soil, and that's in the middle, not so much under the vines, you know, we can have that and sometimes on young vines near the vine itself, getting that reradiation, but again, you know, as I like to tell people, you're not going to have all these situations, and it's not going to be every year, you know, some years you're doing things you may not need to have weed control that year, but you don't know until after that year, you know, and now and I'm not I'm not a pathologist, I'm not an enthramologist, I'm not a viticulturalist I'm a weed scientist. But you know, there's been some indications that some weeds that are growing and some of the we plant and some of that we don't are having a, you know, an increase in pathogen plant pathogens that are moved by certain insects. tikka pirate likes legumes Well, you know, especially in some of our low nitrogen situations, plants that produce their own nitrogen, like Bird Clover really tend to like that situation because they have a, they have a built in advantage by making their own nitrogen. So we can in some vineyards, we can see a high population of bird clover, which may or may not cause an increase in tikka, which could cause an increase in red blotch. So, you know, when you think of weeds just specifically for competition, like when I talked to master gardeners, I say, you know, if you're growing carrot, you know why you do weed control because you want a carrot. But when it comes to a mature, you know, a 10 year old vineyard, really hard to see that weeds are going to compete on an everyday basis like they would with an annual crop, but there are other reasons why we do it. Ease of harvest, and I talked about, you know, in talking with some pruning crews, right, you know, if you have weeds growing in when you're pruning, and I tell people, if you have an area that takes an hour for let's clean, takes a pruning crew an hour to prune, if there's a bunch of weeds that they have to move around and get around, and it takes them an hour and a half. So your labor costs have gone up 50% Yeah, these are the kinds of things that as a weed scientist, I think about I tell people I really want to know two things. And when we're when we're taping this, it's the right time of year. I only know weeds in college. Basketball. So these are the only things I really know. So, you know, and I've had other I've had, you know, some people sit down and say I should have known that you have to worry about, you know, disease pressure, and getting labor contractors. And I just think about weeds.

Craig Macmillan 20:16

And let's go back to another technology that we touched on snow plows, French plow, that's a very old technology. And, you know, we just mentioned that what a plow does is it turns the soil over, so it buries the weed plants, especially when you get into the right time, what conditions are appropriate for using a French plow? What conditions maybe it's not gonna work so great.

John Roncoroni 20:41

French plow, I mean, you know, the USDA says that, you know, doing something like that the soil is never good, and you're going to mess up the microbes, especially if you're working on that lower area. But as far as just from a weed perspective, if you're dry farming, a French blot works fantastic, right? You're not looking for, in fact, you're trying to discourage as many roots at the top as you can. So doing using a French plow when you're dry farming, it's fantastic. We don't have you know, a lot of dry farms where we are looking at trying to have more consistent harvest and looking at consistent income, where you know, dry farming were at, at the will of the of the weather, that's another talk for another day with people who are doing marketing and know viticulture are better than I do. But see, I've seen more French plows as people have gone back to mechanical in the last few years, and I have in the past think there's a lot more viable options, when you're actually looking at doing some drip irrigation, then they're just by number a lot more viable options. Just by new having new machines coming out then the French plow but I was a dry farmer, my weed control would be French plow under the vines and disk in the middle because everything's you know, maybe having a little cover crop to get more penetration. But, you know, the farther north I lived, the more water penetration I would have. So I'd get more rain.

Craig Macmillan 22:00

So let's talk about drip irrigated vineyards. And you mentioned there's a suite of technologies, some are new, some are old, what are some of those technologies that have worked well in a drip irrigated vineyard?

John Roncoroni 22:12

When I got to Napa in 2007, sustainable at that point meant post emergent only and for those kind of funny now is roundup on the right no preemergent no cultivation and we were drip irrigating, we were keeping those roots at the top so we can drip irrigate. So that's where a lot of that came from. Now, you know, using something like a blade using a little Dustin with those moving things, anything that's sort of like you don't want routine, right? Again, I don't I'm not a vitaculturalist. But roots at the very top are not great, right, you're not probably irrigating correctly, if you're getting a lot of roots at the top, but you don't want to get too deep, where you're getting some of those main roots with cultivation. You know, that's one of the reasons that we do have drip irrigation. At that level. You know, I've talked to people who weren't using cultivation and ask them why their drip irrigation lines weren't closer to the soil so they're gonna have less evaporation. One of the things that we get into with grape growing or anything is that you do things because you've always done them that way, we are cultivating that we do need to keep that drip irrigation at at a higher at a high level. But I think any of those anything that's not just completely disrupting the soil. One of the things that I would like to see with with mechanical like a blade is using some electric eye, AI technologies to get closer to the vines. But right now we have to really, you know, it's all mechanical, right? If we can have these machines down in Salinas, that are taking weeds out from in between lettuce, we don't have to be nearly that technological, to get weeds right around the vine without hurting them. And we have a little bit more leeway with the vine than we do with lettuce. Even though you lose a lettuce plant here or there. You're okay. You don't want to lose too many vines. You know, I think that that's where one of the reasons that we could use more technology. One of the things again, my doctor Moretti up at Oregon State and also lenses masky. Back in Cornell, who they were both at Davis at the same time, Lynn as a postdoc, and, and Marcelo as a as a graduate student, they're working with electrocution of weeds, I think it's what they call it. And it's not just burning them off, like you would use electric light with a flamer. It actually sends electricity down into the roots. So it's, he's working on it mostly in blueberries. But the technology I just I saw his presentation at the Western society Weed Science meeting just a couple of weeks ago in Denver. It's an interesting technology. If you're like having a transformer on the back of your tractor. It's pretty cool.

Craig Macmillan 24:35

There's a there's a lot of potential here in the future for improving what we're doing now.

John Roncoroni 24:40

Oh, yeah. And I don't know how like electric is going to fit into this. But and this is the problem. We ran into herbicides. Anytime you use one technology over and over and over and over and over, you're going to choose for weeds. If you constantly mow under the vines or anywhere, right without some soil disturbance or application of herbicide, something Like Melva, low growing weeds, they'll adapt, right nature will find a way. So the biggest thing we have to do is whatever we do just don't do it all the time. That it's the right message. One of the things that I think we want to talk about was under vine cover crop. It is something for me, I've been trying to push under vine cover cropping for so long. And the problem is, is that because the seeds are expensive, I tell people that one of the one of the plants that I pushed, just because I liked the way it worked, and what I've seen is Zorro fescue. That's a brand name, it's it's rat tail fescue, you see it growing as a weed a lot of places, one of the things I like about it is that about the time we start irrigating, it's dead, it's the nest, and you can discover you can turn it over, because once it's gone to seed, you can mow it all those things. It's a it's a self receding cover crop problem is that because the seeds are fairly expensive, we planted at about eight to 10 pounds per acre and sometimes mixed with Blendo broam, which grows a little higher and stays a little greener longer than I like, because it can be some competition for water. But that's oftentimes keeps it down. But the problem is, is that first of all, how do we get it on the vines, I find people putting it out by hand, because we haven't adapted for the cedar under the vine. Second of all, it starts to reseed itself at a fairly high rate, sometimes 50 or 100 pounds the next year and the third year. So I tell people, if you can't give me three years to make it look good, then let's not start because oftentimes, you know, we started and it looks like it's not doing a very good job the first year, and it doesn't look very good. And some people who don't ask people who make decisions about vineyards who maybe work other places, then the vineyard don't like the way it looks. Right? Right, and we move to something else and they end up spraying it out or cultivating it out.

Craig Macmillan 26:55

Then this is an example of modifying the environment to address this problem and modifications to the environment take time.

Speaker 1 27:03

And this is what intrigues me about regenerative agriculture. I know this is a whole nother subject for someone who probably but as a we, as a plant biologist, and ecologist, you know, actually choosing plants that we want to be there without causing problems. Again, the voles, the legumes with maybe some other virus problems can be, but I think choosing these plants is going to be so important. But you know, it's interesting, I had someone call me and they wanted to start using regenerative agriculture. And I told them, you know, your first three years are going to be really hard I go, you have to choose the right plants, you're going to probably maybe even have some reduced yields. And they said, Well, why John, because my friend has been doing it 25 years, and he's doing great, because his soil knows what to do. So anytime we make that transition and transitioning to this under vine cover cropping. And there has been places in the past where we've tried to use a listen. But listen, because of insects and some other things. The problem with alyssum is after about three or four years, it gets to be about four feet thick. It's one of these things, it's good for a while, but after it kind of takes over, it can cause some holding in moisture and doing some other things. I mean, some people again, depending on how fertile your soil is, you know, some places it may not be a problem, but we have to look at it on a vineyard by vineyard scale. And that's been the thing about herbicides is you don't have to think about the basically the vineyard by vineyard,

Craig Macmillan 28:24

We're basically at a time but don't ask your boys. Is there one particular thing that you would say to grape growers on this topic of let's just say mechanical?

John Roncoroni 28:34

On the whole subject of weeds, Craig, I just want to say that they need to know their weeds better. Right? I know it sounds like I always have a chip on my shoulder. And now that we have to right thing about glyphosate is they really didn't have to think about didn't have to think about their weeds. So there's there's two things I want to know we're almost out of time, but we are out of time. But there's two things I want to say about this real quickly. And I know it's mechanical, but those people who are still using chemicals, they could do a better job. Right new nozzle shielding timing, think more about put as much time and effort into thinking about the weeds as you do about insects and pathogens. Know your plants. Don't just say I'm going to do this. It doesn't matter what the weeds are, know your weeds, know their biology. Know the timing, no matter what kind of control you're doing. And then once you do, get the best tool, like if you are still spraying in certain situations in certain vineyards, use new drip reducing nozzles, use shielded sprayers when you do mechanical, you know, don't just get that old thing that like you said, that's been sitting out in the back, right? Look at the kind of machine that you want to use what we do have, I think when it comes to weed control, the whole industry could do a much better job. Okay, one of the things that I put a slide up one time and I said look, I understand pathogens first and then insects, and then weeds and someone got up and corrected me and they said John, that's wrong. I said Oh really? They go? Yeah, it's pathogens, insects, fertilizers and weeds. Right so weeds and when it comes to weeds being third weeds are not just third weeds or a distant third. They only think for me about all the cons Diversity that's happened is that people have to think about weeds again, they have to go back to knowing what we knew before that before they all started using chemicals.

Craig Macmillan 30:07

So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Our guest today has been John Ron crony. He is Weed Science firm advisor emeritus with UC Cooperative Extension, UC Agriculture Natural Resources. I followed you from afar for a long time. And I'm very excited to get you on the podcast. This has been a great conversation. Yeah, there's so much more to talk about, and I'm sure that we will, we will reconvene at some point.

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

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Businesses are vital contributors to the communities they serve. Beyond stimulating the economy and creating jobs, many business owners go the extra mile by creating a meaningful philanthropy program. Their efforts profoundly impact facets of the community that need support the most.

Meaningful corporate social responsibility (CSR) strategies give businesses the opportunity to connect with community members, improve company culture, and cultivate consumer trust, all while doing good for causes they believe in.

This week’s Marketing Tip tells the Sustainable Story of how Oso Libre demonstrates tremendous Social Responsibility through the Por Vida Foundation.

Supporting 4 Worthy Causes

Oso Libre’s founders, Chris and Linda, started the Por Vida Foundation in 2011 to support causes that are near and dear to their hearts.

By using funding streams from multiple winery activities, they support:

Veteran service groups
Women’s cancer research
Animal support groups
Children and family support groups

This means that Oso Libre’s guests and customers are giving back to these deserving causes, too!

The proceeds from many weekend tasting fees and private events at Oso Libre are turned into charitable donations through the Por Vida Foundation.

In the tasting room, the Votive Candle Offering welcomes visitors to light a candle and use the offering box to support these causes.

Proceeds from sales of their Solera wine bottles are also donated. This is a special blend that the winery makes every year. It is treated like a growler at a brewery: Members can bring their empty bottle back to the winery to have it filled with the latest vintage.

Their foundation is a tool to help them give back and inspire their supporters to join in the good feeling of philanthropy.

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We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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In the 1880s, Pierce’s disease caused a devastating, total collapse of the Southern California grapevine industry. Today, growers have hope for the future thanks to new varieties. Adam Tolmach, owner of Ojai Vineyard, planted four of these new varieties as a field trial on a plot of land where Pierce's disease wiped out his grapes in 1995.

Pierce’s disease is a bacterium spread by insects, typically a sharpshooter. One bite and the vine dies within two to three years. To develop resistant varieties, Andy Walker of the University of California at Davis crossed the European grape Vitis vinifera with Vitis arizonica. 20 years later, commercial growers have access to three red and two white varieties.

Listen in to learn how Tolmach’s experiment is a success both in the vineyard and with customers. Plus get tasting notes for the new varieties.

Resources: * REGISTER: The Ins & Outs of Developing a New Vineyard Site * 89: New Pierce’s Disease Vaccine (podcast) * 137: The Pierce's Disease and Glassy-winged Sharpshooter Board * 2021 Pierce’s Disease Research Symposium session recordings * Anita Oberholster, UC Davis Viticulture and Enology Webpage * Office Hours with Dave and Anita, Episode 11: Pierce’s Disease Resistant Winegrape Varieties * Ojai Vineyard * Pierce’s Disease resistant winegrape varieties overview * UC breeds wine vines resistant to Pierce’s disease * UC Davis releases 5 grape varieties resistant to Pierce’s disease

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Adam Tolmach owner and winemaker of Ojai vineyard. Thanks for being on the podcast, Adam.

Adam Tolmach 0:06

It's my pleasure, Creg. Great to be here.

Craig Macmillan 0:09

I want to give a little background. Before we get into our main topic. We're gonna be talking about Pierce disease resistant grape vines today, but I think your location has a lot to do with how this came about. I don't think it's an overstatement to say that you are a pioneer and innovator and quite frankly, legend in the history of the Central Coast. And one of the pioneering things that you did was you planted a vineyard in Ojai, California, why Ojai? And what is the what's the environment, like, you know, hi.

Adam Tolmach 0:33

Ojai because in 1933, my grandfather bought a piece of property in Ojai while I grew up in Oxnard, we, you know, on weekends, we'd come up here and chase lizards and snakes and stuff like that. And so I'm pretty familiar with the area and then I lived in Ohio for a few years after I finished studying at UC Davis getting a basically a viticulture degree. I came down here and and ran a truck farming operation, we grew vegetables and sold sold them in a roadside stand. And after doing that for two years, I made $4,500 After two years of worth worth of work. So I had said well maybe I should try to get a job in my my field. So my second job in the field was was working at at Zaca Mesa, 79 and 80. And then so as far as the place to plant grapes, you know, that's the reason we're in Ojai because we the family owns property.

Craig Macmillan 1:30

What is the environment like in Ojai? Because I think it's a little bit different than many grape growing regions.

Adam Tolmach 1:34

Yeah, you know, it's actually not that different than I would say the east side of the Santa Ynez Valley like the happy Canyon area or you know, or Paso Robles. Really as far as climatic goes. thing that's a little bit different about Ojai is the wintertime lows aren't as low as they are up in the Santa Ynez Valley or up in Paso. And that's that's a big deal, especially when it comes to Pierce's disease.

Craig Macmillan 2:01

That's where we're gonna go next. When you planted, were there things that you were expecting? And then were there things that came out that were unexpected? And then thinking maybe Pierce's disease is one of those?

Adam Tolmach 2:11

Well, yeah, certainly was, you know, as I've started, you know, pretty ignorant. As young people tend to be, I knew that there was a history of winemaking and grape growing in Ojai, which pretty much died off with prohibition. Actually, after Prohibition, there was a good sized Zinfandel vineyard that ended up being buried in the bottom of Lake Casitas. That sort of what I knew a little bit about grapes. And I didn't really realize it. Pierce's disease also worked into all that that, you know, you plant a vineyard around here, and it's pretty difficult to keep them alive for the long term.

Craig Macmillan 2:48

Just cover the bases. What is Pearson's disease?

Adam Tolmach 2:51

It was originally discovered in Anaheim, California, you know, back in the I believe it's 1880s or so there were 10s of 1000s of acres of grapes in that area 10 or 20 or 30 years out. In fact, it was a much bigger growing area than, than say Napa, up north was for for grapes. And those vines all died. And at the time, it was called Anaheim's disease. Yeah. And so later on, Mr. Pierce, I think, discovered a little bit about the disease. And what we know today is that it's a bacterium that is spread by an insect, typically from a sharpshooter. But there are other insects that also spread this disease. In our case, we're not too far from a river habitat, a riparian habitat, these bugs like lush, green growing areas, and they live in the river bottom, all they have to do is get blown by the wind up to our place. If the insect is carrying this bacterium, it just takes one bite. And then within two or three years, the vine dies because basically the bacteria clog up the water conductive tissues.

Craig Macmillan 3:59

Exactly. When you were first addressing this problem. What kinds of management things did you do to try to manage this?

Adam Tolmach 4:06

Well, we didn't back then. And as we are now we're reasonably committed organic growers. So you know, we don't use herbicides, we don't use insecticides. And you know, I learned as the vineyard died, basically what was going on? So we didn't really do anything, preventative wise. And so the vineyard just slowly declined, right, which is pretty sad thing to see that really considering that I planted you know, every one of the vines in the beginning back in 1981.

Craig Macmillan 4:37

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Adam Tolmach 4:39

And then so we went on, after that, and for years, you know, so the vineyard grew from planted in 81. And then in 1995, after the harvest, we pulled the vineyard because it's so much of it was gone from the disease and then and then there are many years where we you know, didn't grow any grapes on our property. We purchase grapes from mostly, you know, I'm from the Ohio area a little bit, but also mostly from the Northern Santa Barbara County. That area from Santa Maria to Lompoc is really where ideal grapes grow. But I'd always have a hankering to have, you know, to continue to have a vineyard here because we do have the winery right on site here. Close friends and family knew Andy Walker, who was the one who was developing these grapes that were at UC Davis that were resistant to Pierce's disease. You know, I kept kind of pushing the friends to see you if I could get some of these cuttings or plants. And then finally, really just a year or two before they were actually officially released to the public for sale. I was able to get enough to plant a very small vineyard here which is just 1.2 acres, and it's planted to four different varietals. All four of them were developed by by Dr. Walker that He basically took Vitus vinifera the European grape variety and crossed it with Vitis Arizonica in Arizona is a native of the southwest and there are some plant breeding advantages to using Arizonica, it carries the resistance, they can somehow see that really well in my days of knowing how all this stuff works is a little bit past but but there were there are certain advantages that Arizonica provided a one of which was it's a pretty neutral tasting grape. And then also the the second thing was, they were able to pick out right away if they did a cross whether they can tell whether it had the resistance or not. So they did worked on that he's worked on it for about 25 years. And in the end, he had these varietals that were that are 97% vinifera. And only 3% of the American stock, which is pretty important for the flavor profile. They taste very much like the different wines, not like you know, the native wines.

Craig Macmillan 6:53

And then you've expanded that vineyard, I'm assuming you had your trial vineyard and expanded it.

Adam Tolmach 6:57

No, no, no, it's all it's all we have is this 1.2 acres. Yeah. And so you know, we mostly make conventional grapes. So you know, we make Pinot Noir Syrah Chardonnay Sauvignon Blanc and a few other things. And we get some of those grapes from the Ojai area and in spots where they're when they're where there's less Pierce's Disease pressures. And then also up in Northern Santa Barbara County, as I said before, and so yeah, we're just we're still working with, with what we have, we found that the vines are very productive. And we are currently making really just the right amount that we need to provide our direct customers with the wines. It's been a fabulous experiment and great fun, because basically knew, but nobody knew how to grow these grapes. And each grape variety grows a little differently. And so then that was that was a real challenge there. Because I had grown grapes in the same spot before I knew some of the problems and challenges and they had a real strong sense of how I wanted to grow them a second time around. And so that was super helpful. But it's still they still were unknowns for for us, you know, the bigger the crop level, all that stuff, the taste. And then so that was great fun. And then in winemaking wise, Andy Walker had done a number of public tastings of these experimental varieties, I think I went to four of them, where they're mostly were three gallon lots that were fermented by the university. And so it's a little hard to tell from that, but they just seem like there was some potential there. Interestingly, Camus vineyard early on, got some of the vines have this one variety paseante noir. And so they made a really almost commercial size lot of that one, and I was able to taste that before I planted it. And while their winemaking style is a little different than mine, there was it was clear that there was like lovely potential in those grapes. So that was encouraging. But still, we knew nothing, we had no idea. It's still a work in progress it. You know, after five years of producing wine, there's a lot more to learn about how to best make these works. But so anyway, we planted four varietals one is passeante noir, which I think is sort of the best of the ones that I've I've tried. We also had a red, that is really it was never released to the public. So it's a you know, it's our own little thing. We have a small amount of that we call it Walker red. And then we have two whites caminante blanc and ambulo blanc and they're both to go back. Well to go on, I guess is the ambulo blanc and the caminante blanc are distinctively different. They're a bit on the Sofia and blanc side of life, I suppose. But not exactly. And then going back to the passeante noir that's I feel like it sort of tastes like a cross between between syray and maybe cab franc And then possibly some mouved you know, it's a little hard to, to read exactly what's there, but they're unique and different. And you know, in a world from 30 years ago, people wouldn't have known what to do with them. But these days, there's a lot of interest in unique grape varieties, you know, all over Europe, people are, are reviving ancient varietals that nobody's ever heard of, and they all have unique flavors and unique characters. Here are some newly bred ones that that are available now.

Craig Macmillan 10:27

What is the response from consumers have been like?

Adam Tolmach 10:29

Well, that's, that's been super encouraging. Because so you know, we're selling almost exclusively directly to our, our consumers, we have a tasting room, and we have, we do mailorder as well. And but I mean, it's been very positive, we've been able to sell out the wines, people seem to really enjoy them. So it that's been a thrill to, you know, have that consumer acceptance, I think it would be much more difficult if it was, you know, in a grocery store, for instance, but because nobody would know what the name meant. When we're able to hand sell it, it has not been difficult to sell. So that's, that's been super fun. Now, Dr. Walker, also, he had the idea that these varieties, you could grow them and use them as blending material, you know, like if you're making Cabernet Sauvignon in the Napa Valley. It's well known that in the Napa Valley near the Napa River, there's huge Pierce's disease problems. And so is one of his ideas is well you could you know, plant strips of of these varietals be able to have at use the ground productively and then blend them with Cabernet Sauvignon as long as you're over 75% You could call it Cabernet. But what's amazing to me is that the this Passeante Noir is really it's it's it works pretty well as a standalone varietal.

Craig Macmillan 11:41

Were you tempted to to blend we attempted to use these as blenders? Or were you committed to single varietal all along?

Adam Tolmach 11:48

I was much more interested in what they had to say. Yeah, so there wasn't very much interest in my part of of using them to stretch of wine or whatever to you know, to add to something else. It was an option I you know, if they weren't as good as they are, I would definitely could put them into you know, inexpensive bland we make it Ojai read or Ojai white. And so that was definitely an option. But I'm kind of thrilled that they you know, they're interesting enough, they can stand alone.

Craig Macmillan 12:13

Do you think that you'll expand your planting?

Adam Tolmach 12:15

Possibly right now, No, I've got too many things going on. And in this little vineyard year, being small as I do, I do all the pruning, and do some of the work out there. And so it's kind of a family affair. I'm not sure if I want to overwhelm my family with more. For our needs, we don't need too much more. As as things stand. We're we're pretty small size operation. And this is pretty much, well takes care of it. Interestingly, in the same vein, I own a small vineyard, up in the Lompoc area in Santa Rita Hills called Vaciega that's planted to Pinot Noir. And there's one area of the vineyard is kind of up on a little bit of up on a, a mesa or something in between, you know, above quite a bit above the river. The Santa Ynez river. But there's one small section of the property. That's right, basically, in the river bottom, it had been planted to Chardonnay and died of pierces within eight years of its planting. So it was pretty, pretty devastated. And so we actually planted the passeante noir down there and got our first crop this year into that world last year in 2013. And we're pretty excited by that. So really different climate to grow in. So you know, cool climate versus pretty warm climate. It seems pretty, pretty fascinating right now, I'm pretty excited by that. So we do you know, we do have more just not here in Ojai.

Craig Macmillan 13:43

Would you commit like, what are you going to cultural notes on each variety? And then also what are your like winemaking notes on each variety because this podcast is growers and winemakers and we can get a little bit more technical if you like.

Adam Tolmach 13:54

Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Andy Walker released five different varietals, three red, and two whites. I have the two whites and I have only one of the Reds that are commercially released. And that one is paseante noir and paseante Noir is a very vigorous grower. We're on pretty rich soil, I mean, richer than you need for grapes, mostly eluvial stuff. You go down three and a half, four feet, and it's, you know, it's river rocks, and then there are shaley areas, but it's rather richer than you need. We haven't planted on one 114 rootstock which is quite deinvigorating. But in our site, it's still exhibits lots of vigor. And so the paseoante noir grows like crazy. We have planted pretty close together. So our rows are five and a half feet apart, rather than, you know, six or eight or 10. And I did that specifically, for climatic reasons, you know, you get these rows a little bit closer together. You get a fairly tall vertical trellis. And what you end up with is, is a little more shading. And we have this really narrow canopy, the grapes all get some direct sun, but just not for very long, a little bit in the morning a little bit in the afternoon, the rest of the time, they're shaded, also the ground is shaded a lot, because they are so close together. And I think that keeps the temperature down. And I think that's really better for quality. And that's, you know, my personal view on it. And, and that's worked really well we've never, we've never had a situation yet where, you know, it's gotten so hot that the grapes have rasined up, you know, just like overnight, it's not just not happened. So yeah, so here we have the paseante noir it's you know, it's a real vigorous grower, I have a quote on pruned it's incredibly productive. We've been dropping, you know, 50% or more of the grapes as a as a green drop every year and I think I need to double down and drop even more as it turns out, they really want to produce in part of its, you know, part of it is our rich soil, but I think they're also bred to be quite productive. So that's, that's really nice. You know, better than too little, which is, you know, kind of Pinot Noir is problem, generally speaking, the walker red is this one that nobody really knows about, but it's, it's a little more like if the paseante is is a cross between, in my mind a cross between Syrah and cab franc and the walker read is a little more Zin and Grenache kind of character grows a little more upright and with less vigor, a lot more like how Grenache grows. And then the two whites the caminante blanc produces these little tiny clusters that somehow end up always produced, you know, the yields are still high, even with the small berries, small clusters, they give a little bit of a blush to them almost, they're not completely green when they're fully ripe. And they have a really distinctive spicy character, they're quite interesting. And that one is the weakest growing, there's no bigger problem there, it grows along fine with it, it fills up the canopy, but just barely every year, because of the size of the clusters, you just don't expect there to be much crop, but it always turns out to be very generous. And then the other varietals is called ambulo blanc. And it's a little, maybe has a bit of Sauvignon Blanc, spiciness to it. But it also is it's got a much more sort of Chardonnay ish, like, produces large clusters. And it also grows vigorously. So it requires a lot of the trellising is really, really important. And so we spend a lot of time in the ambulo blanc and paseante noir, you know, weaving weaving the canes up, right.

Craig Macmillan 14:06

Based on your experience, would you say, Hey, this is a great idea. If you live in a Pierce's disease area, you should definitely try this out.

Adam Tolmach 17:55

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because I mean, if the if Pierce's Disease is pretty strong, you're you know, you're left with, you know, having to use a lot of insecticides, and they're very bee unfriendly insecticides. And so, you know, we're able to grow here completely organically. That's worked out really well. So that's, that's, there's a great advantage there. I noticed in your questions at the you had to get sent me a list of questions. And one of them is like, what else should they be working on at the university? And definitely, my opinion is, you know, the biggest disease problem of grapevines in California is called powdery mildew. Everybody knows about it, why there aren't more powdery mildew resistant vines out out here yet is, is is interesting, you and every other trade, people that are kind of, you know, they, they praise, the new things that are coming along, the progress has been made in the wine business, everybody wants to just the old thing, just the way it's always been, that's a little bit of a stumbling block in a world where the climate is changing. So that's what that's why I really recommend that's what should be worked on is is resistance to powdery mildew, because it's not going to get better with climate warming. And also, it's it's the reason that we drive through our vineyards, you know, five or 10 times in a season just for powdery mildew control, it would be an incredibly great environmental thing if we could grow great tasting grapes and make great wine out of powdery mildew resistant varietals.

Craig Macmillan 19:27

And I think people are starting to move that direction.

Adam Tolmach 19:30

Oh, yeah.

Craig Macmillan 19:31

But you're right, bring it on. You know, let's, let's try where can people find out more about you?

Adam Tolmach 19:36

You can go to our website, you know, Ohiovineyard.com. And there's, there's lots there's tons of information about about us and me and what we're doing and we have, there's a whole article on on the site about the Pierce's resistant vines that we're growing.

Craig Macmillan 19:52

Very cool. Well, um, so our guest today has been Adam Tolmach owner, winemaker. Oh, hi, vineyard. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is great. Right

Adam Tolmach 20:00

Yeah my pleasure I've been listening to your show now for quite some time I really enjoy it

Craig Macmillan 20:04

oh good fantastic thank you and for all of our listeners out there thank you for listening to sustainable winegrowing with vineyard team

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

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Employees who are regularly trained and educated report higher levels of motivation, performance, company loyalty, and more.

Yet, almost 52% of employees in the food and beverage industry only receive training when they join their organization. Of those that do receive regular training, only 4.5% receive training about their company’s mission and values (TalentLMS, 2019).

In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we’re revisiting the most downloaded Marketing Tip Monday episode of 2023: #178: The Training Your Tasting Room Staff Needs.

Why Education Matters If you aren't regularly providing training and education for your staff, especially on your company's mission and values, you're missing out on opportunities to create a stronger, more dedicated team!

One way tasting room managers can educate their staff on the company's mission and values is to have continual conversations about what your brand is up to behind the scenes, i.e., your sustainability efforts.

Tips from an Insider The hospitality team at Center of Effort can tell you all about the brand’s commitment to sustainability. In recurring staff meetings, the team talk about what’s going on in the winery and in the vineyard, plus what the brand is doing to improve their sustainability.

John Gayley, Hospitality Team Member at Center of Effort says there are three big benefits to these conversations about sustainability:

Staff know their input matters.
The business improves its sustainability.
Guests get a richer, more meaningful tasting experience.

“Education really enforces the importance of each of our roles in helping Center of Effort stay up on its sustainability efforts,” John shares. “Hospitality staff reinforce the brand. We can highlight our commitment to sustainability more if we understand what we are doing both fundamentally, and the new and exciting things we’re doing to improve. These conversations keep everyone engaged and ready to come up with new ideas.”

John often takes guests on vineyard tours. He says that people are “fascinated by what goes on in the vineyard, and by the thought that goes into the sustainable approach.”

Visitors love learning about cover crops, irrigation, owl boxes, and more. “When guests talk with a well-informed team member, this helps all of us in our mission of sustainability.”

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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An antiquated California law makes the use of autonomous equipment in the vineyard challenging. Michael Miiller, Director of Government Relations at the California Association of Winegrape Growers (CAWG) explains that workplace safety standards developed in the 1970s based on 1940s equipment state that self-driven tractors must have an operator onboard. To update this law, CAWG is working closely with manufacturers and countries that allow autonomous equipment to aggregate data on safety. Automation has many potential benefits to farm workers include developing transferable skills, upward mobility, precision agriculture, and increased safety. Learn about how the law works today and about funding opportunities to train staff.

Resources: * 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light * 120: Autonomous Drone Vineyard Spraying * 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money * California Association of Winegrape Growers (CAWG) Legislative Action Center * California’s ongoing ban of autonomous tractors a major setback * Department of Industrial Relations Regulation Title 8 Section 3441 Operation of Agricultural Equipment * Electric, self-driving capable tractors roll into California North Coast vineyards. North Bay Business Journal. (Partial pay wall) * Frequently Asked Questions Self-Propelled Agricultural Equipment (CAWG Member Login required)

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Michael Miiller. He is Director of Government Relations at the California association of wine grape growers. And thanks for being on the program.

Michael Miiller 0:09

Thank you for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:11

The talk today is where we're at with autonomous tractors as they give a presentation, and you brought up some of the issues we were facing. And I know you've worked on this a lot as well, if you can tell us as of where we are here, end of February 2024. Are we going to get our detractors or not?

Michael Miiller 0:30

That's a really good question. And you can approach them in a whole bunch of different ways. One is we already have them, the technologies there. Now they're being used in many vineyards, across companies around the world. They're also being used in orchards and fields and other commodities. And the reasons for that are in that it's not just economics, it's also about availability of workforce. It's about precision, agriculture, precision, viticulture, making sure that we are good stewards of the land. And it's also about looking to the future, making sure that we have a sustainable industry to grow by grower sustainable vineyard is a huge investment in So on one hand, yes, we already have that. On the other hand, there are continued complications of California law with it. The law states that if you are using self driven tractors, and that's the language in the California workplace safety standards, self driven tractors, then that means that you're supposed to have a driver on board that equipment. So if you have an autonomous tractor that is self driven, meaning that it's programmed to operate without a driver on board, but through electronic means through technology, then you're supposed to have a driver on that board, no matter what. And that law obviously very antiquated. It was, you know, created in the 1970s is one of the very first workplace safety standards in California, is based on 1940s technology. And it's basically targeting for a guided tractors and seeding you mechanisms, as well as irrigation, those kinds of things. And that really targeting the tractors or technology we have today just wasn't even a fathem of possibility back in the 40s 50 60 70. So this is all new logic doesn't address that issue. So in that sense, we're not there yet. But we're getting there.

Craig Macmillan 2:24

Reading up on this topic. But first of all, I can see why it came about. Because I remember growing vegetable fields where people were laying irrigation pipe, and there was nobody in the trenches. And I thought, wow, and then also I thought that was really dangerous is someone who then has to jump up into the tractor to train the roads. So they're putting the wheels and things I can understand that. And yeah, nobody had any idea we'd be here today. So where's the resistance coming from this point from this code from Cal OSHA that coming from the legislature was we're, what's the book that we're reading from?

Michael Miiller 2:57

So it's a couple of things. One hand, while there is resistance for some talk about where where we have embraced, right, where we have people welcoming, you have to remember that the California is the place where agriculture and technology intersect, right? We're largest agricultural state in the nation with a home of great innovation technology. So for these things to come together in California, um, it isn't by happenstance, you know, it's because the technology is here that needs parties here. And people generally understand that this technology, you know, while it seems new, or there's something that is up and coming and in development, it is here already, and it is here to stay. So people do genuinely know that, you know, looking at regulators looking at politicians, they generally get that there is a need to get this right. Okay. So that's the good part of it. The resistance comes in a couple places. One, you have labor unions, who basically fundamentally think that they're gonna lose jobs, technology, right? That for every track that has being driven and remotely, yeah, that's one less tractor driver. And they see that as a job loss in this example. We don't see it that way. We fundamentally believe that in California, there are two tractor jobs for every one tractor driver, you know, we just don't have enough workers to do the job. So in that reality, we're not losing jobs. We're just not. That's just not the reality. And the other part of it, too, we also know that if you take the average person who was working on a tractor and say, Hey, would you rather ride that tractor all day long? Or would you rather operate that tractor remotely from a laptop computer with a skill that is transferable to other industries? I would say more than 99% of those drivers say, yeah, you take me off the tractor. If I can do it remotely? Absolutely. Why would I want to be on the tractor? We don't really see it as a job loss issue. We also see more as a job safety issue. And we know that with technology, the firm is much much safer. It just is because of how the machine is designed to be used. If you're spraying pesticide with it with a machine It is going to be more precise, where it is applied. And it's going to be lesser in amounts and how much is applied. So we think that that is increased worker safety, as well as the basic fact that there's nobody on that tractor, it's less likely that someone's going to get hurt by that tractor. So we really fundamentally believe that is actually as a increase worker safety, increased environmental safety, as well as no job loss. But that is really views are coming from they're fundamentally concerned about job loss, I would never speak for them, you should talk with them yourself. But that's what they testify to in public hearings, then you look at the other issue, the big the bigger public perspective, and the bigger political conversations that happen around it. And we talked about anything that is automated, as far as you know, equipment, vehicles driving around, the first place people go to as those taxis in San Francisco, and they look at it from that perspective, okay. You've got busy roads, you've got hills, you've got curves, you've got pedestrians, you have all of those factors. And then they look at the videos that are, you know, online and computer, you know, YouTube, whatever. And they see those occurrences which, frankly, are very infrequent and not the common occurrence, but they're an infrequent occurrence. But they see those infrequent occurrences and they see them as commonplace, even though they're not. And then they see them, as is something that, you know, applies to all autonomous equipment, all self driven equipment. And in reality, if you're looking at, you know, the tractor moving two and a half miles per hour through a vineyard, when nobody's there, you have a very different situation than, you know, 1000 pound, you know, semi truck going down the interstate for a taxi in downtown San Francisco, was a very different situations. And so we think that we really just look at ag equipment autonomously in a vineyard, because we represent winegraoe growers, that it should be a whole separate conversation from all of the other, you know, autonomous equipment conversations,

Craig Macmillan 7:03

There are autonomous tractors in other states, right, and other countries. So is it possible to bring in these races from these other places, and make an argument that would be persuasive?

Michael Miiller 7:17

That is exactly what we're doing. We believe, whenever you're writing, a workplace safety regulation, this should be based on data should be based on evidence should be based on facts. It shouldn't be based on hyperbolic concerns and discussions, right? Although there's always you know, the the element of people to be safe and where there are concerns. And those concerns or concerns are expressed broadly. Some people I think, take anecdotes and view them as facts or evidence, when in reality, an anecdote is not, you know, conclusive evidence. So we're looking at that evidence from not only other states, but other countries as well. You look over Europe, South America, Australia, New Zealand, I mean, this equipment is in use, and they have data of the manufacturers have. And they put that together, some of the labor unions have resisted that data, they think that if the worker isn't represented by a union, then the worker is afraid to file a complaint or speak up and therefore the data isn't reliable. And in California, you've got less than point 5% of our ag forces represented by a union. Most workers in California don't want to be in a union, they don't see any gain to their advantage in that. In that reality, then it's incumbent on us to come up with all that right data and all that right evidence. And that's what we're doing. We're working closely with those other countries, manufacturers, those countries and others. I recently met with the company from New Zealand, and they were had a very interesting presentation about how they have a robot that goes through the vineyard. And it scans in real time looking for viruses and diseases. If you think of for red blotch, for example, right, the robot will go through it a cup, and then the grower and your manager will get on their computer screen, an image of that vineyard with specific locations of where there's a problem and where it needs to be treated. So that grower can then take a robotic tractor, go into that vineyard the next day, and sprayed just those locations where there are problems. And they're doing that in New Zealand and heavy hills, all kinds of terrain, and they're doing it successfully in a very safe way. And that's evidence that we that we you know, gathering and putting together and we think that that's ultimately gonna be very helpful to us.

Craig Macmillan 9:37

You brought up an interesting point that is certainly talked about autonomous tractors and tractor are mentioned or equipments mentioned in either zero. This is Cal OSHA regulation?

Michael Miiller 9:47

Correct.

Craig Macmillan 9:48

Does this apply to things like automated robots?

Michael Miiller 9:51

Probably because remember, when you're talking about self driven agricultural equipment equipment.

Craig Macmillan 9:56

Yeah, then can be very broad. Interesting, interviewed a number of different posts for the podcast that are working on automated robots to do all kinds of stuff. And this exact problem had really occurred to me.

Michael Miiller 10:10

If you think about it from the perspective of some of the sprayers that are out there now, there's a sprayer that has like three different models. And there is no, you know, driver's seat, there's no steering wheel, there's no accelerator, brake, clutch, gear shift none of that. It's all operated remotely. So even if you wanted to put somebody on top of that sprayer and have it running through the vineyard, there's no place a person to be. It's just not physically possible. Right?

Craig Macmillan 10:39

Where are we have what's coming up next? We're in February 2024. And you had mentioned public hearings and testimony speaking in the Senate, what's the next phase on this topic?

Michael Miiller 10:49

So we're working closely with the manufacturers, we believe that the best way forward is mobile a couple of things. If your viewers are members of the California Association of wine grape growers, we put out a FAQ fact sheet that we think will help growers to use equipment under California law legally in California, in California, the key is that we using that equipment, it shouldn't be anybody else in the vendor, right? If the tractors going through doing his work, just make sure that there's nobody there. Because if you do that, then it is not really a workplace. Remember, the regulation is a workplace safety standard that applies to a workplace. So if there's nobody there is not a workplace, that law doesn't apply to that. And again, I'm not your lawyer. So I encourage you to read our FAQ sheet, but that also talk with your legal counsel and your HR professionals. Make sure that works for your specific situation. Very broadly speaking, if there's nobody in the in the vineyard, then it's not really work because it should be elaborative. But that means you should also keep the records of that, how do you how do you document that there's nobody there and keep your payroll records, make sure it's all detailed, keep time logs about when the machines that use or where it's in use, you make sure you've got all that documented for a minimum of six months. So that if there's ever a citation issue, if somebody files a complaint, you can then say, Okay, here's what you know, here's what we did, here's how we did it. And there's nobody there. Therefore, it's not a workplace, and therefore, there's no basis for the citation. So that's in the short term, because, again, I have visited a number of venues where the equipment is in use. And that is fundamentally how it's often used right now, with nobody around the equipment they the operative late at night, they operate on doing equipment that doesn't really require anybody to be in the vineyard. So it fits what's in practice today is to really look at that separate from a workplace safety standard, because it's not really a workplace. So that's the short term. And the long term, we really got to fix this regulation, we just have to the regulation is goes back to the disco age, for God's sake, right, music has changed. So it's technology. So and so was fashion, right? So yeah, I don't have any bell bottoms anymore. So so we need to think about, you know, how that regulation, you know, should read and how it should apply to just autonomous equipment and what that would look like. And part of that is going to have to come from the manufacturer, industry from the from that sector, because they're the engineers, they're the experts, they know how to do that, right? The agricultural end of it, we can bring all kinds of evidence to bear about why it's needed, and why it's appropriate, why it needs to be updated, the details of the equipment itself, what if defined with equipment is in a way this engineer and how its technology is used, then you have to look at how to operate that equipment safely and what that looks like and how that, you know, operates. And then you go look at where is equipment intended to be used and for what purpose. So you've got to put all that together in a regulation that your reflects the science, not only of today, but also where things are going. So because we have to keep going back and just as regulation of science, develops, technology grows over time, is gonna be a long, long continual investment process of the regulation. And we think it should be written in a way that reflects what's happening today, with also our appreciation of what's coming down the road, is we know that there's more coming. I mean, we're at the tip of the iceberg of what the technology can do right now.

Craig Macmillan 14:35

Oh, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I the role of humans in this is always the tricky bit. It's kind of an aside, but I'm old enough to remember when laser cutters first came out. It was kind of a panic that you're gonna put an eye on you're gonna blind somebody with these, you're gonna and no, I don't want to shine in my eye but they're all over the place. I use them all the time and they're just they're not illegal. Don't put it in an airplane. Hopefully we can kind of get past some of it. So one of the reasons I say that is, again, I've talked to many guests, they're going full on in this area. And they've got federal funding, like you said, it's being it's being implemented in all over the world. And we need to catch up.

Michael Miiller 15:13

Frankly, if you're a grower in California, and you're not thinking about looking at precision agriculture, and how do you use this technology, you're making a mistake, because it really will benefit every part of the industry. I firmly believe that and it'll benefit our workforce, our communities, everybody involved. Well, another example perhaps for me too, is you mentioned laser printer. The other ones, I remember the 70s When I was a kid, the invention of scanning groceries, the barcodes at the cash register, right? That didn't exist before early 70s. Right. And one of the places where there was a lot of pushback on it was from cashiers, they thought you're going to replace my job with these machines are going to scan the groceries. And if you talk to the average grocery cashier today, they would not want that job otherwise, because it makes their job a lot easier.

Craig Macmillan 16:05

You still need cashiers.

Michael Miiller 16:07

Correct. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 16:08

Yeah. I mean, that role didn't go away. You know, when I first met you, I saw you give a talk. And I asked you a question. I'm gonna answer this question here. That does a really interesting answer. We're definitely moving this technology direction. There's no doubt of it. When we're talking automation, we're talking robotics, we're talking electrical driven motors, on and on and on, this is going to take a pretty sophisticated workforce to not only operate, but also to maintain nationally or in California, are we bringing people into learn these topics in these areas?

Michael Miiller 16:46

That's a good question. It's a several layered answer. You know, one is one hand. Yes, we are. I mean, when you're looking at some of the manufacturers who are doing some of this product testing, they're making sure that there are people trained to operate their machines, and there's the training themselves as part of the package, when you buy the tractor, you're gonna get some assistance and training your employees to have a part of it as you have Fresno State university, UC Davis, Cal Poly, a lot of community colleges, who are already training in some of this work, they're they're making sure that where there is training of agriculture industry, that that training includes technology, right. They're training people, you know, for all of that, as well as for the marketing in the industry, product, all of it. So the training is already happening as well, or I mentioned earlier, where we know that there's some embrace of this issue, the governor just recently announced that there's going to be a $10 million program at the EDD employment training panel, where there's some money being provided for agricultural employers to train their employees and various things, not just technology, it can be all kinds of different issues. But the idea goes to make sure that we have a sustainable workforce of workers are getting trained in skills that will benefit them through upward mobility, transferable skills, and all of that. And that $10 million is for that purpose. So if you're the if you're the grower, who's wanting to make that change, and move, move from, you know, traditional tractors to self driven automation, whatever kind of equipment you're going towards, you know, it might be an option for that grower to, to apply for a grant for the ETP, to get some funding to train those people in that new skill. So there is a lot of recognition of the need to train workers and to make sure that that people have the skills necessary. One of the big ones you mentioned was how do you maintain these tractors, right, if you've got an electric tractor, you know, that's operating on the battery. And it's a whole different mechanism than if you have a tractor, that's diesel gasoline, you know that how you repair that equipment, how you service equipment, you maintain it, it's a bit of a different skill. So we need people who are trained in that as well as how to operate it. So there's a pretty substantial need for training people. And I think that that's kind of the appeal of it too. Because all those skills are transferable. When we look at our workforce, we see that the average ag worker is getting older and older. That's because we're not bringing in a lot of younger people, right? They don't want to do the ag work, they want to do something different, right? They're more interested and motivated to do other kinds of work. So if we can look at that reality for younger workers and say, how do we make this job more appealing to them? And we're applying these kinds of technologies and skills, they will come back because at work in the 70s is very different than ag work today with this technology. It's just an entirely different thing.

Craig Macmillan 19:46

If there was one thing that you would tell a great or on this topic, what would it be?

Michael Miiller 19:52

I'll start with this. I'm a Midwestern kid. I was born in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I spent most of my childhood in Iowa and Wisconsin, my tie back to agriculture is from that Midwest experience, right. And my uncle has a farm outside of Mitchell, South Dakota. And I would go help them as farmers and I drive tractor and do whatever he had. He had hogs. He had some cattle, he grew soybeans, corn, alfalfa, all kinds of stuff. He was very diverse in what he did every year. You know, he relied on Mother Nature for rain in new irrigation back there, right? So I remember talking with him after I come out to California, just touching him, see how he's doing? And I asked him, so what's your most reliable crop right now? How are you doing with it? How was how's the industry has environment, it's my most reliable crop right now is a cell tower, that I lease on the corner of my land, that is guaranteed income every year, every year that's guaranteed income. With that in mind, if I talk to a grower today and say, what's, what's the one thing they should really think about, think about where your opportunities are to actually, you know, save money, invest in the future, reduce your cost, and actually create those reliable sources of income and sustainability, right. So if you're looking at things like carbon sequestration in the vineyard, you're looking at cover crops you're looking at, you know, all of that kind of stuff. You're looking at, you know, a technology that is down the road, you're looking at stuff that's coming, and I would pause, take a breath and look at all of that, because there are huge opportunities there is some growers laughed at my uncle for putting up this tower. He's like, Yeah, but this is cash income every month. And I'm good to go with it. Yeah. So yes, I say continue looking at the technology and see how it applies to your bottom line. Because you will be surprised at how much and how big of an advantage it is for growers to actually look at this technology and make that investment.

Craig Macmillan 21:55

I'm from the Midwest, myself. I'm from Iowa, Soux Falls Iowa.

Michael Miiller 21:58

I lived in Waterloo as a kid.

Craig Macmillan 22:00

You're kidding me.

Michael Miiller 22:01

No, Waterloo!

Craig Macmillan 22:02

We need to edit this part out! Well, then you can well, then you really can relate to this. You know, I was involved in farming, I was a city kid. But we had, you know, members of our church, or folks that we knew who had farms and side of town, they had to make some big decisions. Sometimes, you know, depending on the price of corn, they may have to store it, I may put it in a silo. Or maybe I should look at another crop or another type of livestock or something like that. Since that time, we now have farms with tractors that are running on GPS that have intelligent sprayers all programed. And a family can farm quite a bit of ground with again, a lot of safety, but they weren't big investments. They were risks. That's that's what I hear from around other crops. It's like Nope, that was a big jump. But once we did, it made tons of sense, it worked out great. I do want to kind of underline your idea that we should definitely be looking and thinking and doing the math. And then especially as technology becomes more adopted.

Michael Miiller 23:00

Everybody's got to make the decision as a grower by grower or video by vineyard basis. But in speaking in general terms, I think growers would be surprised actually beneficial it is to them.

Craig Macmillan 23:10

Where can people find out more about you in these topics?

Michael Miiller 23:13

You go to our website www cwg.org orgy my email simple Michael at cwg.org Send me a text anytime email I'm easy to get a hold of. The contact information is on the website. And there's some information on there as well mentioned our FAQs etc website and it gets available for our growers and viewers who aren't caught growers should be known I could help you with that as well.

Craig Macmillan 23:39

Okay, sounds good. This today was Michael Miiller. He's Director of Government Relations, California Association of wine grape growers. Thanks for being here.

Michael Miiller 23:46

Thank you so much. Enjoy yoru day.

Craig Macmillan 24:22

Waterloo, Iowa

Michael Miiller 24:24

Yeah! yeah, go cyclones.

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When asked to define the 3 P's of Sustainability (People, Planet, Prosperity), Prosperity is often the one gives people pause.

But it's such an important leg of the stool! Sustainable businesses develop long-term plans and strategies to ensure they can thrive now and into the future.

Some of the ways businesses embody Prosperity are through:

Creating and sticking to a budget.
Keeping thorough records.
Creating informed and effective marketing plans.

A business can also extend their prosperity through collaborative efforts with like-minded groups. When this happens, both parties win.

Organizations that partner over shared values benefit by:

Pooling resources.
Building relationships.
Advancing awareness and support for their cause.

For example, Cambria Estate Winery is a Business rooted in women’s leadership. Their team partners with organizations that share their dedication to uplifting and empowering women in an incredibly impactful way.

Cultivating Female Empowerment

Cambria Estate Winery is rooted women’s leadership. Their certified sustainable wines are even named after their proprietors – Barbara, Katherine, and Julia.

Did you know that their dedication to recognizing the experiences and achievements of women goes even deeper? Uplifting and empowering women is core to their Business values, and they have a big way of showing it.

Every March for Women’s History Month, Cambria selects an organization that aligns with their pillars of climate action and women’s leadership, and pledges $25k to support their efforts.

Tamara Bingham, Cambria’s Brand Manager, gets to make the phone call to let the organization know they were selected – a task she says is “probably the most rewarding part of my job.”

In 2024, she notified the lead of American Farmland Trust’s “Women for the Land” initiative to pledge their support. Right in line with Cambria’s own sustainable practices, this initiative supports women farmers and landowners in preserving their land and embracing conservatism.

Other past years’ partnership organizations include Equity Now, Women’s Earth Alliance, SeaTrees, and Amazon Frontlines.

Through these partnerships, Cambria demonstrates their dedication to using the power of their platform to help uplift and empower women everywhere.

Their Business practices are founded on their belief that a commitment to sustainability is also a commitment to amplifying the messages of the many deserving organizations working towards a better future.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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If irrigation efficiency is a goal of yours, a new predictive model may make scheduling easier in the future. José Manuel Mirás Avalos, Tenured Scientist at Misión Biológica de Galicia in the Spanish Nation Research Council (CSIC) (MBG-CSIC) in Santiago de Compostela (Spain) is working on a Decision Support System (DSS) prototype for irrigation and fertilization of winegrapes. This computer model accounts for multiple variables including weather, soil moisture, evapotranspiration, soil type, plant spacing, bud break, variety, and wine quality goals to help farmers make more informed irrigation decisions throughout the growing season.

Resources: * 191: CropManage: Improving the Precision of Water and Fertilizer Inputs * 195: Hydrological Mapping: A Vital Component of Effective Water Conservation Plans * 213: High Resolution Data from Space Helps Farmers Plan for Climate Change * Decision Support System for Seasonal Irrigation and Nitrogen Fertilization * Decision support system for selecting the rootstock, irrigation regime and nitrogen fertilization in winemaking vineyards: WANUGRAPE4.0 * Effects of the Annual Nitrogen Fertilization Rate on Vine Performance and Grape Quality for Winemaking: Insights from a Meta-Analysis * Fiabilidad de la monitorización del contenido de agua del suelo para determinar el estado hídrico de la vid. (“Reliability of monitoring soil water content to determine the water status of the vine”) -in Spanish * José Manuel Mirás Avalos on ResearchGate: * José Manuel Mirás Avalos On LinkedIn

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is José Manuel Mirás Avalos. He is tenured scientists at the Misión Biológica de Galicia and the Center for Spanish Research Council. Thanks for being on the podcast.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 0:10

Thank you very much for inviting me. It's a great pleasure for me.

Craig Macmillan 0:14

We were interested in talking to you because we saw that you've been working on a pretty interesting type of technology with it with a whole group of folks around the idea of decision support systems, particularly around irrigation, fertilization for grapes, possibly even root stock selection, when I read, first of all, for our audience, what exactly is a decision support system?

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 0:34

The idea behind that decision support system is to provide a within one package in this case is a computer platform in which we use different kinds of information coming from real data coming from models that that are implemented within this platform to provide the users the end users with information to make certain practices easier, or more rational. In the vineyard. In this case, we were centered in this particular case in irrigation and fertilization. And there was another it's not exactly a decision support system is more like decisions help decision making for the rootstock which is a independent from the, from the irrigation fertilization system.

Craig Macmillan 1:27

How does the grower use this kind of tool so I'm trying to make decisions about irrigating my vineyard and how did the tool play into it?

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 1:36

At the moment is just a prototype, the computer program or the DSS for being short? The DSS Decision Support System can give some information very easy to obtain such as the geographical coordinates the plant spacings location about the nearest weather station for instance, and that information and the algorithm which is inside this platform in the user will receive an information okay for this conditions over this growing season, you will have to use that much amount of irrigation to obtain given in this case, we use an indicator of grape vine water status the user can modulate within a wide array of values. So, you can decide okay, I want that, on average, my grapevines in this particular danger go between these and these values of of water potential. And then from this decision support system says okay, in that case, you must follow these instructions that is to get that much irrigation for obtaining full genes. Or you can use less irrigation in order to obtain a given quality parameter in that case was soluble sugars in the grapes.

Craig Macmillan 2:59

How's that algorithm developed? Your modeling is a predictive model, basically, you're saying. The vine is going to respond a certain way over time. How is how is that done?

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 3:10

We've capitalized on previous works from other research groups. And I said that that this work is not my work is I work for in collaboration with several research institutions in Spain with people that have a strong expertise, viticulture, in grapevine physiology, we capitalize on that, on that knowledge in order to model soil water balance, and adapted to vineyards in this case by using a proxy of the grapevine architecture in order to model vegetative growth over the growing season. So with that, we modulate the evapotranspiration of the vineyard. And from that we calculate soil moisture, according to weather that and using data from experiments carried out here in Spain, with seven grapevine varieties located in different regions of the country, let's say correlate soil water content with a measure of grapevine water status in this case was a stem water potential, which is a measure which is considered here in Europe. Well, in the States, there are some kinds of schools that refer other other types of measuring grape vine water status but in this case here in Spain, A, we proved in a previous work that stem water potential is a modality of great buying water status indicator, which works best for irrigation purposes.

The work that you're basing this on the research that's been done, was it done specifically for developing this model? Are you able to take work that's been done for other purpose And then put it all together to get the algorithm that you want?

It was basically the second option that that you have mentioned, we have extensive experience working on irrigation in vineyard. So we have several, we participated in several experiments concerning different irrigation protocols within the vine. So we let's say capitalize those data from those experiments. And also perform it a couple of experiences during the course of the project, which led to the development of this decision support system.

Craig Macmillan 5:35

Obviously, there's a lot of variation placed to place region to region. And so how do you account for that?

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 5:41

This is a nice question, because it was the most difficult part.

Craig Macmillan 5:45

Yeah, I would imagine Yeah,

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 5:47

For developing this. For accounting this of course, we have weather records from different stations located in different regions of the country, which are close to the vineyards, we use for validating this this model. But we also took into account soil properties such as texture, organic matter, which also vary a lot from region to region, we added two different equations depending on if the soil is calcareous or nor calcareouse, because the hydraulic properties of the soil would be right in case of high calcium carbonate content. But these are the main the main aspects, but there is a parameter within the model that also arise depending on the on the variety, we can imagine this parameter as the threshold of soil water content, until which the given variety of grapevine begins to show signs of water stress. Unfortunately, we could not make a lot of measurements to obtain a wider range of of values for this parameter. According to the data that we have for five varieties, it was very similar, independently of the of the region in which the vineyard is located. So it's more dependent on the variety itself than on the on the location. These are the three main aspects that allow us for four plus eight capturing the variability within within the regions.

Craig Macmillan 7:20

If I was using such a tool, I would give my location that will tell me a lot about what region I'm in, it'll tell me some things. Then you mentioned we put in like the density, the spacing, because that's going to have to what to do with the total leaf area per hectare? Basically, variety, you'd put in varieties as well.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 7:38

Yes, but for accounting for a variety, we also asked, they use it too, to provide their date of bud break. Because it's different depending on the region and also on the variety.

Craig Macmillan 7:51

Okay, so they'll tell me about the season, we're talking about, like season long recommendations. So at the beginning of the season, I would say okay, this is what I'm shooting for. And I would actually put in this is the the vine water status that I would like this is the lead potential I'd like to see. And then it'll say, okay, based on the historical weather, and based on all these other factors, we believe that applying this amount of water would really have that result eventually.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 8:18

That is how it works right now planning to adopt it. But we need help from some company or some people who is expert on computer science, we are planning to develop a tool with the aid of some computer science guys or programmers that allow us to divide the growing season in, let's say, to flowering or flower into venison. Verasion to harvest for instance, on the other hand, using four stages, for instance, ranges of water potentials were tabulated more or less. And the objectives are for the wine producing end user, let's say we'll have the curve that is produced by the model, but in this case, divided into four stages and with the theoretical curve that we should have in order to produce a certain type of wine. So we will be able to say ahead or behind the limit. During this specific stage of the growing season. Suppose you have to apply more water or you should not apply water.

Craig Macmillan 9:35

There's a lot a lot of different ways of trying to achieve this. And that's why this one seems to be kind of a new approach. Even if you're in the development stage. It's still a very intriguing concept and how it might be how it might be applied. And tell me more about how do you actually fit these different pieces together because you got work in a vineyard in one region and work in another you got weather information. You found some way correlating these things with the outcome that you're interested in, which is the water potential.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 10:04

It was kind of difficult but not not so much as as at a first glance, it would be within a soil water balance you have your result is the soil water content at any specific date. But in order to get to that, you need to know the soil water content, let's say the previous day, but you also have already rainfall, you calculate transpiration of the values, the evaporation from the soil is just putting those pieces together that make the thing work. It's It's not so difficult, it's kind of intriguing too, because all these these parts have their equations in the middle to get to them. But in the end is just fit a soil water balance model with with the data from the different, let's say inputs that you have.

Craig Macmillan 10:54

And essentially you as your career actually, I've looked at some of the other things you've done, you do find good fits, you can take multiple variables, this very complicated world. And when you kind of put it all together, you can start to get a picture, you can actually get some fixes to some other variable

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 11:15

Sometimes is easier than some others. So we tried also to model genes, that was very more, much more difficult. We got two nice results. But there was a lot of variation, depending on on climate and in also on the irrigation management. When we validated this other model for dealing with data from from Spain, if I remember correctly, there were poor regions within Spain. It worked well for some regions, but it didn't work for for some others, we didn't get to the solution to get a unique model for all the regions for for GLD. Also, because we combine a deal with dry matter partitioning within the plant.

Craig Macmillan 12:06

Oh, interesting.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 12:07

Yes. And we did that in collaboration with with American professional.

Craig Macmillan 12:14

Who's that?

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 12:15

Alan Luxo from the from Cornell University.

Craig Macmillan 12:18

Oh, fantastic. Cool.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 12:20

Yes, because at that moment in time, my supervisor have made it previously researcher stay in at Cornell University with this professor, he began with the with modeling. In that case, it was apple trees. And we adapted that model to vineyards.

Craig Macmillan 12:40

The cross crop work, it's fascinating because you know, grape vines are a very unusual, kind of unique plant cropping world. But they do have a lot in common with other, you know, Woody perennial crops, other orchard crops. And if we can take the research that's done across multiple areas and use it that's really exciting, increases the efficiency and increases the depth of what we can do, which I really, really like, how you validate this model, where you have people try it, and then you'll come out and you'll take measurements or have them take measurements.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 13:14

For developing the model, we employ that it's a restricted set of that of data, in order to the few parameters that are inside the construction of the model. But we have met so many experiments within the consortium, that we were working on this decision support systems. So we have finally had a set of more than 100 scenarios to validate the model with data collected from the field. In some cases, we have both soil water content and stem water potential. In some others, we only have a stem water potential. So we tested the model against those data. In many cases it worked well. In a few instances, it didn't work well, because of we detected several particularities within the vineyards we use to test the modeling in a given region. For instance, if is you want me to give any an example a specific example, in a region in western Spain southwest, Southwest or Spain, we have vineyard that the field data said that during the summer, it was not as water stress, as the model is saying that it was a fact is a that was occurring is that the vineyard was very close to a river. So it is it is likely that the water table rose within those periods, or that the vine roots were able to reach that water table and the moel wasn't able to capture that. That feature.

Craig Macmillan 14:54

No, but I would imagine if I'm using a tool like that, and I know my sight like can take that kind of thing into account could say, why would a little bit of experience you can say I always know that this recommendation is a little bit higher than what I actually need. But by using that I can say, well, then I'm going to use this number stead. That's kind of the idea. Now, do you see this technology leading to increases in efficiency, reduced water use or just more efficient water use?

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 15:22

I like to seem that, that this is a step forward to auto efficient water use in vineyards. But maybe at this moment is, too let's say it's a scope is too broad. And we have to work on in order to be more specific, or I don't know the word in English.

Craig Macmillan 15:43

Particular.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 15:44

The idea is that to be able from this from this, let's say decision to port that we have to build more detailed decision support system that allows allows end users to manage irrigation on a daily or we'll be on a weekly basis, but it's still some work to do.

Craig Macmillan 16:07

Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is this is early days, and this tool isn't isn't out yet. So we wanted to talk about the the concept, which is fascinating, which always reminds me of something I noticed when I was doing the research, you mentioned a consortium, when you look up these topics, you'll hit pages that have many, many different organizations listed at the bottom. And I believe you just moved around between a couple that are part of the same group or consortium is what it looks like, how does this work you've got you've got different agencies, you have different educational institutions, you have different departments have different parts of government that are collaborating, they're working together, they're coordinating what they do, is that how this works.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 16:44

In his particular case, this project came from a network of collaboration, which was funded by the the Spanish government. And that involved, I don't remember how many but maybe 12 institutions that work on different aspects of viticulture, in order to increase the impact of their research that is really done. Because sometimes, I don't know if this happens in the States. But in Spain, we have the problem that many times we work isolated once from the others, and then our research doesn't reach the level of impact that the funding agencies desire. So in order to, to overcome this weakness, the main funding agency for research here in Spain, asks for creating networks of specific topics, between several research institutes, maybe research institutes, but also universities, and in some cases, private companies, but this later is less frequent.

Craig Macmillan 17:58

Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting there's there's more kind of a multi organizational collaboration here in the United States all the time, we've noticed for a particular topic, and some folks are working on this and some folks are kind of working on this and and coming back with things from different regions or different aspects, but they can all be brought into kind of a coordinated outcome for growers is very, very, very, very practical and very exciting. Is there one thing that you would say to a grower regarding this idea of decision support systems, especially around things like irrigation or fertilizers, or one piece of advice or something that they should be excited about or one reason why they might want to consider using such a tool when it becomes available.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 18:39

Nowadays, the number of decision support system is increasing. There are many companies which are developing tools or recycling other tools coming from other let's say, organizations must be aware that the decision support system generally, which is those that I know that are available on the market are general not specific for a given crop. In order to obtain the best results is is better to have a specific decision support system. So that's for one for the one part. And the second part is that in the end, these are tools to help making decisions, but one cannot disregard the experience of the grower. Of course, in the end these these kind of decision support systems might must be used as a tool. If you allow me to give a recent experience that I have working with a private company, not in the case of vineyards, it was developing a general platform for aiding in irrigation decisions. The final aim that they have is to automate the process of irrigation this can be a little bit dangerous, because if you if you let a model perform the whole process of ollecting that data, make a decision and then execute that decision in the whole process, they can be accumulation of errors that may give a final response, which is not the desired one.

Craig Macmillan 20:15

What you're getting out and you've touched on and what makes sense is it's a decision support. It's not decision, it's not making a decision for you. It's saying, This is what the model says. And you say, Yeah, okay, I hadn't thought of that, or, okay, that works. Or, okay, let's try that. It's not just executing it. I mean, you know, I can imagine I can imagine a world where you would have a decision system that would take all this into account, and then it would open the irrigation valves automatically. And that may not be where we really want to be headed. The human is always going to be the arbiter, that the human is going to be the decision maker, this is about providing the best information to help make a good decision. That's it. And I think that that's really, really crucial, because I am familiar with another variety of other systems. So we look at all this information. And the readings might say, Okay, this is the direction to go, or this is this is what you should do or that, but the grower will say, That's fine for this variety on this root stock on this soil. Absolutely. That works. For me, that makes sense. But we know for a fact that this variety on this root stock on this soil is not going to work because of the experience with all the details. And I've had some very interesting conversations with folks where I'm looking at the database stuff and saying, Hey, these vines look fine, there's plenty of water, the water potential looks great. There's water in the soil, everything seems to be fine. And the grower says, Well, we're going to irrigate. And I'm like, that seems surprising to me. And they say, Well, under this condition, this variety will collapse out of nowhere, when it hits a certain threshold, and I want to make sure we don't get anywhere near that threshold. So that that information was useful for making decisions in one scenario, they make a slightly different decision in another scenario, and literally those two spots are across the road from each other. A lot of similarities between the two but the grower has that has that experience to say yeah, but under certain conditions, this is what's going to happen. And so again, it's about having the best information to make the best choice, but the human is the one that's going to make the call the human is never gonna go away. And I would be really fascinated once you have once this stuff becomes available. I would love to see some research on how people use it, how people use the technology. Where can people find out more about you?

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 22:37

I have profiling on research gate which is a social network for researchers there you can find my All my publications in a no the top is a working over my ground and also on LinkedIn.

Craig Macmillan 22:52

Fantastic. Yep, I found you very easily and you have a lot on there and a whole variety of other topics that we will have don't have time to get to today, but it's really cool work. So our guest today has been José Manuel Mirás Avalos. He is a scientist at Misión Biológica de Galicia in the Spanish Nation Research Council. Spain with the center Spanish Research Council was the one well, thanks for being here. This is really interesting stuff.

José Manuel Mirás Avalos 23:13

Thank you very much, Craig. It was a pleasure for me to talk to you

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

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Beyond doing good by the environment and your community, your sustainably certified wine grapes differentiate your brand in today’s oversaturated wine market.

But do you know how much of a value-driver your certification really is?

In this Marketing Tip, get insight into the significance of sustainably grown grapes in the larger market from Gregg Hibbits, who has nearly 30 years of experience selling wine grapes.

Over this course of his career, he has experienced a shift in what his grape-buying clients are looking for. Keep reading for highlights from his interview on Episode #83 of the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast.

Buyers with Different Interests Each client, Hibbits says, has different interests.

Many winemakers have deep and long-standing interests in sustainability because they believe in its mission: creating high-quality products through protecting, conserving, and regenerating resources so people of today and the future can prosper. They seek out certified sustainable grapes that align with their values.
Other buyers believe that sustainability is the direction the industry is going. They feel a push from the market and the trade to produce wine from sustainably farmed grapes, so it is part of their purchasing criteria when they source fruit.
Furthermore, sustainability is a value-driver for investors. Businesses want to report back to their investors that the product they are supporting is both of high-quality and reaches exceptional levels in environmental and social health.

But he notes a change in his clients over his career.

Higher Demands, Higher Premiums Hibbits tells Sustainable Winegrowing, “There’s absolutely no question that people are more demanding on every front now.”

Buyers are demanding sustainability. Now, the topic comes up early in conversations with buyers – something, Hibbits says, was not the case 15 years ago.

But he has been able to fulfill those demands, and has been rewarded in the form of premiums.

“Sometimes it’s as simple as being able to sell your grapes when nobody else can – that’s a premium. And then sometimes when the market is in a different place, the premium is a true premium: I can get $200 - $300 a ton more for my sustainably certified or organic grapes.”

And this is something we hear from SIP Certified growers time and time again:

John Niven, Cadre Wines “Buyers are looking for wines that have responsible farming practices, are aware of environmental issues, and, of course, are of high quality.

The SIP Certified program has added value to our wines allowing us to demonstrate our ability to fulfill all of the desired criteria that buyers look for.”

Austin Hope, Hope Family Wines “More and more, we’re being asked about our sustainability efforts in the vineyard and winery.

Being SIP Certified is an easy way for us to quantify our practices and tell the consumer and trade about how we run our operation in a way that’s better for the land, the wine and the community”.

Adam LaZarre, Broadside Wine “For us, having our wines SIP Certified is easily the best way to let our entire audience know we are sincere about doing the right thing for the health of our vineyards, customers, and employees...

I know for a fact that this is a HUGE selling point for our wines.”

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Learn how to Apply for SIP Certified Wine today!

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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While the tradition of wine is still important to how we connect with customers, the way that we communicate has changed. David Avrin, President of The Customer Experience Advantage explains why brands must have an omnichannel approach to their customer communication. Identify which channels are most valuable to your business by defining your core audience. Then find out what they watch, what they read, and where they recreate. Use these insights to harness the technology that your customers use whether its snail mail or TikTok. David reminds us that there is no shame in not being comfortable with technology but there is no excuse to not work with a technology native who does understand the platforms that best reach your audience.

Resources: * 82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer * 85: It‘s Time for New Wine Sales Strategies * 98: Selling Wine in Non-Traditional Channels * 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine * David Avrin Website * David Avrin Books * David Avrin LinkedIn * David Avrin YouTube * Social Media: Facebook | Instagram

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is David Avrin. He is president of the customer experience advantage. Today we're going to talk about a little bit about the business side, and how that applies sustainability in the wine industry. Thanks for being on the podcast.

David Arvin 0:14

Thank you very much for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:16

Now, we've talked about wineries vineyards, but their businesses. In your mind, what are some of the important things that winery and vineyard owners might think about in terms of making their companies sustainable into the future?

David Arvin 0:29

Yeah, it's interesting, because I think the industry certainly has been around for a very long time. And when it goes back to Biblical times, and there's there's certain ways that vineyard owners, those who are in the business suppliers, and others, this is how we do business, this is how it's done. But what's interesting is for the rest of us, who are the wine consumers, our lives have changed. And it's actually for everybody, right? How we connect, and share and grow our own businesses, and our changing expectations for access and immediacy, and flexibility, all of that has changed. So I think part of future proofing your business is striking that balance between the traditions, that, that go into making a great vintage wine, and how we interact and how we engage as consumers in the b2b side with distributors and others as well. So many of those mechanisms have changed. So I think what's really important is for people to be very clear on the technologies that are expected, and the ones that facilitate great communication in great relationships. I saw a study the other day, and the gist of it said that, that companies today are expected to deploy technology that allows their customers to do business with them, not from home, from anywhere, at any time, I don't expect that I can get my hair cut at four o'clock in the morning, but I expect that I can make an appointment to do so or cancel that appointment. So I think it's a very unique industry, because the traditions and what is tried and true and effective are so important to maintain, so important to pass along from generation to generation, but how we connect and communicate and deliver those services, those products, all of that has changed. We need to stay on the front end of that.

Craig Macmillan 2:09

One of the attractions of wine, I think, in my experience with customers, is this traditional aspect this is this is something mystical about it. And how do we maintain that kind of magical quality to a product, when we need to engage with the customer in more electronic ways or more distant ways, and maybe without as much touch?

David Arvin 2:31

I think it's just the business part of it, that it requires that kind of an expeditious, ease of use kind of a methodology are really virtual wine tastings unless you're actually tasting wine in different locations and connecting electronically.

Craig Macmillan 2:46

And that's happened.

David Arvin 2:47

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We did it during COVID. We had so many double dates with my wife and some other couples and stuff, and just opportunity just over a glass of wine and some dinner, to just hang out with each other. It's one of things we learned during the pandemic that was possible. But I think when I've talked about the technology, I think it really is purely just how do we do business, my, my mantra, my new book is all about how to be how to become ridiculously easy to do business with. And so I think fortunately for the industry, I think the traditions still hold true. I think in person, wine tastings and wine enjoys and pairings at restaurants, I think a lot of that will pretty much stay the same. I think it's we're always want to stay on the forefront of that. But it's the the communication, the distribution, the marketing. There are so many new amazing mechanisms now to reach our target market, which is shifting, of course, we can talk about that. But it's using the mechanisms that they use. And so we can be traditional, but we certainly don't want to be seen as stodgy or antiquated, or old school. And so I think there's there's a really wonderful balance that in the terminus is fully intentional, because there's so much that balance comes into this industry. But I think in terms of our communication and our marketing and our in person enjoyment. I think that part's all very important.

Craig Macmillan 4:07

He mentioned the generational change. And that's an issue for the wine business, the generation that really brought us to where we are today, their children, and then possibly their grandchildren are coming of age, they're coming of age. And the question is whether that love of the wine product has been passed on generationally or not. One thing that I learned from looking at some of your other talks and stuff was, it's about and you mentioned it was the ease of connection and the ease of doing business and convenience.

David Arvin 4:40

I think on the business side is that I think there's a great opportunity for the industry to become not just present and relevant but preferable to a new generation as well. It's not like there isn't a long history with wine. As I said, going back to Biblical times. They have survived so well over the years. But what's different is each generation How we communicate, and how we connect and reach out, all of that has changed. I think wine is uniquely positioned to capitalize on that new as long as these generations come to fruition that Gen X, the Gen Y, the Gen Z, and all of them as well, because I think there's a natural progression of maturity in the individual. It's like there's a space, I think, between the parties. And I remember when party was a noun, now it is a verb. And then of course, the the more traditional and stodgy. I think wine is uniquely placed in there. And so while the young people are, they're going to play drinking games at 18, to 23, 24, you know, playing quarters with beer, the opportunity when when it's time to grow up, we grab a glass of wine, and we connect together. So you might have party and the stodgy I think the middle is social. And I think wine has a phenomenal opportunity right now to be positioned as the social drinker, we're not drinking to get drunk. We're not drinking to be to be sophisticated in in our smoking jackets with a high ball and of whiskey. But I think wine lends itself phenomenally to visuals, as well. And so I think if you're going to compare it to industries that have survived and thrived in that transition, I think coffee is probably the best. I mean, we grew up our parents, you go down, look for 15 cents, get a cup of joe. Well, now everybody's enjoying coffee, it's become more profitable, it's become more prevalent, because they've looked at a couple of things. One is the social aspect. And Starbucks had a big role to play in how we look at that experiential thing. But it's also a grab and go kind of an item, being able to recognize how easy do we do that and take that to the office. And that industry has done it very well. No, wine, of course, is something different. We don't necessarily take to the office, but the visuals of people who have come of age socializing, and not just drunk at a frat party, I think there's wonderful opportunities in terms of our marketing to say, when you're when you finally grown up, this is how we connect, this is how we socialize. And the other part of it, I think, is the packaging. And this part has been really fun for us because we are of the mind of so many, that when we get invited to a gathering, we always come with a bottle of wine. What's interesting is talking to others that one of the primary drivers. And this really takes us back to like 50 60, 70s was the emergence of clever and attractive packaging. It's less important today in other industries. But I think it's more important in the wine industry. The clever names, the clever packaging, so many people I've talked to say, I just thought this bottle looks so cool. And that's the one that they bring, right. That's not the bottle we tend to open up we like to display because there's so much creativity in that the elegant yesteryear of wine was a very elegant, labelled today. They're whimsical, they're fanciful, they're, they're tongue in cheek, and everything from the 99 crimes that you can scan and get a little story about them to Menage a Trios, which, which, you know, gives people a little bit of a smile when you realize the the inference, I think is such an exciting industry right now. I think the biggest population bubble in history is coming of age, and the perfect target. And then we look at the social how they communicate as well. Whether it's Instagram, or tick tock, for others, as well short form social short form video, it lends itself so well, two people connecting and gathering and enjoying life and sharing a bottle of wine.

Craig Macmillan 8:23

I'm a dinosaur, I just turned 55. And I work sometimes in the tasting room, the winery where I work now Niner Wine Estates, as time went on, it became very clear that I was not able to communicate with my coworkers, because they were talking about Instagram, they were using Twitter, they were Venmoing everything like I couldn't even be involved in social gatherings without getting Venmo on my phone. It's a here's 20 bucks and like, I don't want that. No, I wanted my Venmo account. Yeah, so one of them actually offered to become my social media consultant. And that is still continued to this day. So how can we make it easy for the consumer to interact with winery, if the consumer is not either tech savvy or in my case doesn't want to be tech savvy.

David Arvin 9:11

The term that you're going to hear so often which is which is omni channel. And omni channel means no matter how they want to communicate with you give them that opportunity. I mean, you talk about Venmo, for example, and I speak to audiences around the world, I write books on all of this. And one of the things I talk about in the new book that I'm writing right now, which is called ridiculously easy to do business with one of the chapters is be ridiculously easy to pay, you know, somebody wants to pay you through Venmo Okay, and this is scary for people with very traditional businesses. And I'm like, oh my god, somebody's trying to give you money, say yes. As you had recognized sometimes it takes a younger person who is a technology native who is immersed in all of this to help you translate and help you implement. There is no shame in not being comfortable with some of the new social media platforms or mechanisms. There is no excuse to not work with somebody who is and just because it might be a little bit scary. And for I mean, if you're old, I'm ancient, my kids run circles around me are all of our kids where we've got a Brady Bunch, they're all sort of 20 to 29. And I've got two of them who do digital marketing and digital media for a living. I wrote books if you can, if you're watching the video behind me, I wrote books, and I couldn't keep up today. But what we do is we surround ourselves, we outsource we, we hand off to people who are comfortable with those mechanisms. So when I talked before up omni channel, we're all going to have people, we're going to have customers from 21 to 85 or above, they want to communicate with you differently, they want to access the product differently, some might be able to do sort of online video introductions, a tour of the winery, some things that look very experiential, and some are very, very comfortable using the app and doing things online ordering. And there's another segment that needs to talk to a person for for those in business, those who are listening to this podcast, you don't have to be all things to all people. But you have to be very clear of who your audience is, and who your future audience is. And make sure that you have the processes in place for them to reach you by phone, by text message. However, that might be an even if it's just the b2b aspect of your business and dealing with vendors and others as well. No matter how they want to communicate, try and make that available. We look at the lifetime value of our customers, both on the consumer side and also on the distribution side. being ridiculously easy to do business with is a competitive advantage today. And all of this is with a recognition that you have to be good at what you do, right? This isn't in lieu of a quality product, don't take your eye off the ball. But what's different today, what's different post pandemic is that our mechanisms for how do we communicate or pay or order or reorder have got to be simple and streamlined. And then when we look at the audience is how do they where are they getting their information if you want to really target those, those 21 to 30 year olds posting clever, engaging intent and enticing videos on Tik Tok or Instagram, it's not fluff, it's business. If that's where they get their information, you need to be there. You need to be there effective.

Craig Macmillan 12:11

And that raises another question. I think it's tough for a lot of businesses just in general, how do you keep up on all this stuff? As there's new applications? There's new channels, there's new preferences, that's another one Pay Pal was the thing. So yeah, Pay Pal? I'm cool PayPal Venmo I'd never heard of it until somebody demanded that as a payment. If I'm the general manager of a business or if I'm an executive, how do I stay on top of this?

David Arvin 12:34

Um, first of all, is the recognition you don't have to do everything. Because it is overwhelming. It's 100%. You don't have to be on every social media platform. You don't have to take every form of payment. You don't have to take Bitcoin, I would advise against it. But it doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to be a student of business be a lifelong learner of business. And there's no shortage of content available online. That tells you here the the the hottest trends, how do millennials or Gen Z prefer to communicate what is their greatest influence into what they buy? When and why just read I mean, there's videos on on online every day, part of my responsibility to my clients and my audiences that I serve is I need to be very, very current. There was somebody who had booked me to to keynote a conference and that's my my primary business as a keynote speaker. And it was six months away. And they asked if I would send they were finalizing things if I would send my slide deck. And I said, I'm happy to send my slide deck but understand it's not what I'm going to present to you in six months, because things will change between now and that whether you have a second generation who's moving up within your business, make sure that you have people of all ages in the room as you discuss strategy. I think to answer your question, just be a student of this there is no shortage go on YouTube is the second biggest search engine in the world only second to Google, and it's owned by Google. But YouTube is a wonderful way to have just looking at stories and news clips and others about what are the latest trends. How are they predominantly buying? Where does Gen Z get most of their information? Right? I saw some of the day was fascinating that Disney was suffering in a significant way just because the youngest of our people are getting most of their videos and content online now on YouTube and others and it's in lieu of that it's not like they did anything wrong. Bed Bath and Beyond goes bankrupt not because they did a bad job. It's that we had changed and how we buy and how we connect we just get it delivered to our house through Amazon or something else. So I for me, I think it's it's a it's an exciting thing. It's a positive thing to be a constant learner, stay up to date and relieve yourself of the pressure to do everything. Just look who is my core audience? What do they watch? What do they read? Where do they recreate and congregate and dine and connect and are we there? And are we there in a way that is is not just present and not overly salesy. Persuasive and social and big the big rule in social media is don't sell share.

Craig Macmillan 15:04

I was reading something this morning, which reminded me of a topic that we had talked about internally in our winery. And that is the the idea of story. You just mentioned that storytelling. We also know that attention spans are short. And we know that a lot of us technology is set up for no more than a minute, two minutes, three minutes, how do I tell a really compelling story in a short amount of time? there's

David Arvin 15:28

Well, two ways to do it. One is a story, a traditional story. And that might be through an article, it might be through a longer form video, it tells us a situation or something about a Thanksgiving dinner, and something that emotional happens. And you see that on the table. Most of story today, in terms of short form, video format, is literally very short. It can be a 22nd, Instagram reel, with pictures and pictures and pictures and lots of lots of music. I think the best example, if you think and look at how pharmaceutical companies are doing their commercials today, for Jardiance, or whatever those might be, whether it's a musical number, how often you see seniors at a farmers market, or at a kid's birthday party, but they're showing them connecting, and being being social, and family. And they just put these scenarios, you don't really know what the whole story is. But it puts it within the context as opposed to somebody holding up the product. And talking about the product. It's what do we want people to feel and I think that's the greatest opportunity for wine today, when looking at Gen Y millennials, or Gen Z is is is showing them in the in the kinds of situations that makes sense. It's laughter It's friendship, it's it's connecting, but it's also post fraternity party, it's post red solo cup, I could see a great ad campaign when you're ready to graduate from the red solo cup to a nice glass of Chardonnay, right? But that doesn't mean that somebody's 60 years old, it can be young and sophisticated. And the romance and all of that I think the stories can be told in short form, through the visuals, you know, and the music and all the things that and once again, here's here's a great thing about about YouTube, you can go on YouTube and search, how do you use YouTube? And you'll see a million videos, how do you create Instagram reels that capture the attention or look for others within your industry don't copy but emulate you know, which are the ones that get engagement and why I think it's an exciting thing to become a student of this. And I've learned so much from my kids who are no longer kids. My oldest daughter works for the number one social media channel on the planet. And they post videos and they get between 40 and 50 million views on their videos in the first 24 hours. Wow. And so what I'm learning from them is astonishing. And did I mention I wrote books on this?

Craig Macmillan 15:29

You said you've got one out right now what is that?

David Arvin 17:22

Yeah, well, but my new subject, and it's not really new. But I realized about seven or eight years ago because I talked about marketing and branding for most of my career, what are the what are the words we use that best describe and differentiate what we do in the marketplace. And I came to the recognition probably seven or eight years ago that we had changed in such a substantial way because of social proof that what we say about ourselves, is not unimportant, but it's not nearly important, today's what other people say about us. And it's Yelp and TripAdvisor and rotten tomatoes, and Glassdoor and of course all of the your own social media sites. So I might that's what led to my research would lead to my book, why customers leave and how to win them back is one of the points of frustration, friction in the process, unnecessary delays and, and lack of convenience for certain things. My whole business changed. And so all of my work and my research and my speaking and my books are around the central theme that in a marketplace where everybody's good. The winners are the ones who are ridiculously easy to do business with.

Craig Macmillan 18:56

I think you just answered the question, but what is the one thing you'd recommend?

David Arvin 19:00

There's two aspects Well, once the business aspect, and the other one is the marketing. So I think in terms of internal process, you have to be able to replicate what we're seeing in a broader marketplace. You have to be able to reach somebody, if somebody's yelling into the phone agent, real person real person, you're doing something wrong, right doesn't mean we can staff 24 hours but we're learning we can learn from Uber and Amazon and Domino's and others as well in terms of how do they use the mobile technology to make it super easy to reach someone to ask a question to reorder, make sure you have an off ramp so they can talk to a real person. That's the ridiculously easy walk your customers journey. Are there too many steps? How long is your contracts, we're seeing companies reducing their contracts and things that are really relevant and important. Be easy to work with your distributors and your vendors and others as well. And then of course on the marketing side is just recognize who not only your buyers are today, but your future buyers. Beware they are speaking language that's persuasive, authentic for them as well. And I think this this is one in industry and I speak to industries that are really struggling. I think the sky's the limit for the wine industry.

Craig Macmillan 20:05

So where can people find out more about you?

David Arvin 20:08

You find me online. My name is David Averin AVRIN, I'm on all social media on some of them. It's the real David AVRIN. That's a whole cat fish for another day. But you can look me up at Davidavrin.com or just google music videos as well. And as we had said, Before I speak and I consult. I love talking business. I'm a fan of business and I'm very optimistic about where we are post pandemic.

Craig Macmillan 20:32

Fantastic. Hey, we gotta go. Thanks for being on the podcast. David. Our guest today was David Avrin, president of the customer experience advantage

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

View Details

Every wine enthusiast has different preferences, behaviors, and levels of investment in their pursuit of great wine. A few years ago, Wine Intelligence identified six distinct consumer segments in the US market and we wondered “how can we tailor a message of sustainability to align with these differences?”

In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we’re revisiting the six wine consumer segments and giving you tips on how to most effectively share your sustainable story with each one.

Engaged Explorers

Who are they: Young, adventurist, frequent wine drinkers who love to try wines from different regions and producers.

Talk SIP: Tell them how you improve your soil quality and how the health of your land influences the characteristics of your wine. They’ll love learning how nature impacts a high-quality wine.

Premium Brand Suburban

Who are they: Mid- to older-aged enthusiasts who know a lot about wine. They may not be big spenders, but they can be die-hard loyalists.

Talk SIP: Get technical! Talk about how fruit quality is measured (Brix, pH, and TA). They’ll love the insight and attention to detail.

Contended Treaters

Who are they: Mid- to older-aged drinkers who don’t drink often, but when they do, they are willing to spend more. They are knowledgeable and involved, and look for an engaging story to relay to their social circles.

Talk SIP: Give them fun sustainable tidbits to share with their friends, like a specific sustainable practice from your sustainable story worksheet.

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

Social Newbies

Who are they: Young, new to wine, and rely heavily upon recommendations and valued information.

Talk SIP: Stick to the 3 P’s of sustainability: People, Planet, Prosperity. They’ll love this 360° approach and be able to pass it along with confidence.

Senior Bargain Hunters

Who are they: The largest segment of wine drinkers in USA. They have strong wine knowledge and tend to select from a narrow range of styles and brands to meet their expectations on value.

Talk SIP: Talk value-driven sustainable initiatives like monitoring utility usage and recycling programs.

Kitchen Casuals

Who are they: Very infrequent wine drinkers who stay close to what they know.

Talk SIP: Stick to the basics of what sustainability is and how drinking sustainable wine is a win for the people and the planet.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * ReSIProcal February * Sustainable Story | Print * Sustainable Story | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story? * Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured

View Details

Intelligent or sensor-controlled sprayers have the potential to improve pesticides application efficiency, reduce labor, and lessen waste. Brent Warneke, Senior Faculty Research Assistant in the Department of Horticulture at Oregon State University is testing LiDAR sensors that can sense a plant and adjust the amount of spray based on the coverage area needed. Brent also addresses the best time to use biologicals based on disease pressure, the benefits of drones in farming, and simple ways to improve spray efficiency with an air blast sprayer.

Resources: * REGISTER: April 12, 2024 | Tailgate | Fungicide Spraying: Reduce Your Carbon Footprint & Financial Burden * 2: The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management * 79: Grapevine Fungal Diseases * 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light * Airblast 101 * Brent Warneke Google Scholar * Brent Warneke LinkedIn * How to Do Regular Maintenance on Air Blast Sprayers to Ensure Proper Care for Specialty Crops * Oregon State Fruit and Ornamental Disease Management Testing Program * Oregon State University Nackley Lab * Pesticide Redistribution and Its Implications on Pesticide Efficacy * Sensor Sprayers for Specialty Crop Production

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Brent Warneke. He is senior faculty research assistant in the Department of Horticulture at Oregon State University. And today we're going to talk about some really cool stuff and agricultural technology. Thanks for being on the podcast, Brent.

Brent Warneke 0:11

Hey, thanks for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:12

I saw you speak at the 2023 Sustainable Ag Expo in San Luis Obispo. And I was very inspired by your talk, I thought things that you were doing were really interesting. And I thought your message is really, really great, what kinds of things you've been working on.

Brent Warneke 0:25

I've been in this position at Oregon State University for the last five years. And we really started with investigating this sprayer, which we'll get into called the intelligent sprayer, and how it has potential to increase efficiency in terms of pesticide applications, from everything from labor to spray volume to pesticide quantity, and waste. And that's something that we've covered and in a lot of different ways that we'll go into here.

Craig Macmillan 0:55

And so, you know, obviously, this is a viticulture oriented show, but you've done this in other crops as well.

Brent Warneke 1:01

Yes. So I work with specialty crops in general, the kind of main categories that I focus on are wine, grapes, blueberries and nursery crops.

Craig Macmillan 1:11

Cool. What is an intelligent sprayer? Let's start there. What is it? What's it composed of? How does it work? What are the benefits?

Brent Warneke 1:19

Yeah, so the intelligent sprayer is one of a group of sprayers that I termed sensor controlled sprayers. These are sprayers that have sensors mounted on the sprayer, and they're able to sense objects in our in our case plants, and adjust the amount of spray they're applying based on those, what they're seeing. And the intelligent sprayer is is a kind of more advanced sprayer that uses a LIDAR sensor, which is a laser sensor, that's able to scan the plant canopy with millimeter resolution, and adjust is it spray very finely based on the canopy density that it detects.

Craig Macmillan 1:59

Tell me more about the sensing aspect of it. So LiDAR, if I remember correctly, it's the same concept as radar. Only light is the key, the laser, the laser goes out and bounces back. Is that right?

Brent Warneke 2:12

Yep, so a lot of these sensors use what's called time of flight. So they'll emit a beam of light. So in the case of a LiDAR sensor, it's a laser beam. And then it detects the amount of time it takes for that beam to hit off of the object and come back to the sensor. And what's cool about this LiDAR sensor is it scans a 270 degree field of view, it's able to scan basically almost through, you know, fully around the sensor itself. And out up to about 100 feet is the maximum that it can see. But you're able to set the various widths and areas that you want the sensor to focus on, for doing your precision spraying.

Craig Macmillan 2:55

Is that 270 degrees? Is that vertical or horizontal? I mean, is it scanning up to capture canopy? Or is it going side to side to make a map, how's it work?

Brent Warneke 3:02

if 270 degrees would be kind of three quarters of a circle, and the blind spot of the sensor would be kind of pointed at the ground. So if you can picture an arc going kind of from each side of the sprayer up and around, so it can see vertically above and also horizontally out up to about 100 feet from the sensor.

Craig Macmillan 3:25

It's reading a plane?

Brent Warneke 3:26

Yes it is.

Craig Macmillan 3:27

And then it's telling the computer, there's something there, there's something not there. And then the computer adjusts how much spray or is not coming out of the nozzle then?

Brent Warneke 3:35

Correct. So this sensor itself is a two dimensional sensor. So it scans that plane, That's 270 degrees field of view. But then as the sprayer moves through the field, it kind of creates that, that third dimension, and it's able to construct 3d representations of the canopy. And then that's what it uses to adjust the spray volume in real time.

Craig Macmillan 3:59

How is that controlled, there must be some valves and involved in the third thing.

Brent Warneke 4:03

Yeah, kind of where the the eyes meet the the actual controllers of the system are individual solenoid valves at each nozzle. And you can actually set the field of view or the area that each of those nozzles will focus on. You can actually tell each nozzles to only focus on a certain width of the canopy that has some a lot of different capabilities even besides what I just mentioned, there's other settings that you can use to make sure that you're kind of only targeting what you want to target.

Craig Macmillan 4:38

Oh, okay, so does that mean that as I go along, it'll say okay, there's something above but there's nothing below so I'm gonna open the valves above not open the valves below. Or the opposite say, hey, there's less above than there is below. I'm gonna change my rate based on that so it can do it both directions and everything as you're going along.

Brent Warneke 4:55

Yeah, exactly. A common thing is there's weeds that are below or the vines and we don't want to spray those, they're not relevant to us. So we can tell the sprayer to not regard anything that's 18 inches and below, or you can tell it to only focus on, you know, the actual grape canopy itself. So there's different settings and within the system itself, you can make different configurations for different crops or different size canopies, depending on what you're working with.

Craig Macmillan 5:26

So something I was thinking about, as I was preparing for this interview, we've I've done a number of interviews recently around things like hyperspectral, imaging, and also just regular light. So this is a little bit different, because those things are based on color, or based on certain reflectances. This is just based on the physical presence of a leaf or shoot or branch or something like that. So it doesn't matter what color it is?

Brent Warneke 5:49

It does not so this technology actually does not sense any colors. I mean, there is potential for that. But it just says his presence or absence. So it sprays you know, if there's a post there, or something in the canopy that's not green material, it'll spray that because it'll it'll detect that it's there

Craig Macmillan 6:07

wouldn't be advantages to using this kind of technology?

Brent Warneke 6:11

The advantages of these sensor controlled sprayers kind of form a cascade. So because you're using the sensors to detect canopy they apply usually lower volume than a standard air blast sprayer. And an air blast sprayer is kind of the the general comparison we always use. That's the most widely used sprayer type. What's the work? Yes, it's been the classic workhorse for, you know, 80 years. Yeah, for a long time. Yep, yeah, implementing these sensors, you start saving volume, and then that leads to fewer fill ups of the sprayer, which then leads to less labor, because you're in the field for less time, and then also less diesel, then you're also releasing less pesticide into the environment, and using less pesticides. So there's less pesticide waste as well. So there's kind of a suite of benefits that come with using these more precise sprayers.

Craig Macmillan 7:09

And that was the next thing I wanted to talk about. So in my experience, when you're working with fungicides, in particular, it's all about coverage, coverage, coverage, right? It's all about coverage. When I use a lower volume, I am perhaps reducing the coverage that I'm gonna get. That's always been kind of the mindset, for me, at least, you know, my understanding, how does this technology overcome that issue? I mean, are we getting good coverage with this kind of technology, and then I want to talk more about the reduction in pesticide as a result.

Brent Warneke 7:38

So that's actually a great segue, I can talk about some of the work we've done using both micronized sulfur and and also biological fungicides. So we first got this system back in 2018. And we took it as an out of the box sprayer, we're gonna see what it can do. That was our approach. And we chose micronized sulfur as our product to really investigate it with because it's a contact fungicide that you need really good coverage with in order to get good disease control on powdery mildew, which is the disease we mostly focus on. So yeah, we took it with it's out of the box sprayer settings, and micronized sulfur, and out in the field, it didn't perform as well as we were hoping it would, with a standard five pounds per 100 gallons sulfur mix rate, we took that and we decided to make some adjustments to how we use the sprayer. So we kind of tested two different things, we upped the concentration of sulfur in the tank, and then we also increased what's called the spray rate in the sprayer, which is where the sprayer will apply more spray per unit canopy. So per canopy density unit than the original lower setting. And we were able to get control that was controlled powdery mildew that was comparable to our standard airblast sprayer. So those were two adjustments that we were able to make to get to get good control. And along with that we've done coverage studies as well. And volume is related to coverage amounts. So with higher volume, you will get better coverage, you can get to the point of oversaturation, then you're not really providing any benefit. That's more of a waste situation, you may you know, you probably will still be getting good good disease control, but then you're also probably wasting materials. Well, we found that with adjusting the various settings we could get also get comparable coverage to a standard sprayer.

Craig Macmillan 9:39

How hard is it to calibrate this kind of technology?

Brent Warneke 9:42

You know, these these technologies these sensors sprayers I mean they're they're just sprayers like any other air blast sprayer. I like to work backwards when I'm thinking about calibration. So that really is how well is it actually covering the leaves. Using water sensitive papers is a great way to About this, you can get them from many agricultural suppliers, and just bring them out into the field. And it takes, you know, it'll take a half day or you know, it'll take a little bit of time to really dive into adjusting your sprayer. But using those cards, adjusting the air volume, adjusting the spray volume to match the canopy really has lots of benefits, in terms of streamlining spray efficiency.

Craig Macmillan 10:27

You talked about increasing the concentration in this particular study we started with said five pounds per 100 gallon, I think, was the ultimate outcome in terms of what the concentration was.

Brent Warneke 10:37

We jumped up to 20 pounds for 100 gallons, so four times the amount. Oh, wow, that's not to say that a lower concentration wouldn't still have efficacy. But we just jumped up there just to see how well that higher volume would work. And using the lower per unit canopy settings with at higher volume yielded similar control to our standard sprayer. So we may have been having a hotter spray mix. But then we applied, you know, quite a bit less volume. So there is a trade off there. You know, maybe with some products like sulfur, you know, there's potential to maybe not be saving as much spray pesticide material. As you know, one one would hope based on that the trade offs. But we've also done work with some trials with synthetic fungicides. And those, even with the reduced rates and kind of mixed at a standard rate, they still performed quite well. And there's been lots of other studies across the US with this intelligent, prayer technology that have found great disease control with synthetic products at those lower use rates.

Craig Macmillan 11:49

You mentioned biologicals. First of all, why the interest in biologicals and then secondly, what did you find out?

Brent Warneke 11:54

We've really zeroed in on biologicals over the last three years, we kind of started with sulfur and looked at that for three years. And then we transitioned over to biologicals. And mostly because there is such an interest among growers and using them. I mean, they have a lot of, yeah, they have a lot of benefits. I mean, they're typically organic, they typically have short reentry and pre harvest intervals. And there's a ton of different development that's going on in the field and new products coming out all the time. Yeah, there's a lot of interest out there. So that's kind of why we started looking into them more, just to kind of quickly go over what we found, we definitely found that some products, there's a bit of a rate response, like if you apply more of them, you might get some better control. And then other ones, we found that that's not actually as much of a thing where those lower application rates can still have fairly comparable control to the higher application rates. And then we've also found some found that some products don't don't work very well, as well. So it just kind of depends. Another kind of overarching caveat is that the disease control that you can expect is definitely dependent on the disease pressure that's present. So these products are these biological products really need to be applied preventatively. And if there's a lot of disease pressure, a lot of disease in the field, they're not going to reverse that, like, you know, many fungicides will not and these, these are the same. So that's that's kind of another caveat.

Craig Macmillan 13:25

Right. What kind of reductions are we talking about? Like in terms of the sulfur work? You know, I think a standard application might be anywhere from two to five pounds per acre, biologicals, we're talking ounces per acre, or whatever liquid, what kind of reductions Did you see between your comparisons between the normal sprayer and the LiDAR controlled sprayer?

Brent Warneke 13:45

So this is a it is a true variable rate sprayer. So when there's less canopy, it applies less material, and then when there's more canopy, it applies more material. So looking at a graph of how it applies spray over the course of a season, it starts out really low, so at approximately 10 to 20 gallons per acre, and then it'll slowly increase up until the canopy is full. And that can be 40 to 50 pounds gallons per acre, depending on the settings. In general, we saw it we see approximately 70 to 90% SPRAY savings in those first applications of the season. And then as the canopy fills and the maximum canopy is achieved, it's more like 30% Spray savings.

Craig Macmillan 14:36

Ah, that's that's a lot.

Brent Warneke 14:37

Yeah, plus or minus depending on those those settings.

Craig Macmillan 14:41

What does that translate into in terms of like pounds of sulfur per acre?

Brent Warneke 14:44

That all depends on your mix rate and your application volume per acre. We saw with those lower application rates that were the default when we first got it. We were applying approximately one ish pound at the beginning of the season up to to about two and a half pounds at the end of the season, with that lower use rate and five pounds per 100 gallons, whereas in Standard Mode, it was applying about five and a half pounds of sulfur per acre. And with that higher spray rate that we tested, it still started the season at approximately one and a half pounds, but then increased up to around four pounds per acre. Yeah, and that was the setting where we adjusted the spray rate and were able to get good control of mildew.

Craig Macmillan 15:30

So if I was using a synthetic fungicide with this technology, that could be a major cost savings. Some of these fungicides are pretty expensive.

Brent Warneke 15:38

Absolutely. What we found with the synthetic fungicides is even mixing them at kind of your standard rate. And using this technology, which applies a lower volume, we still got great disease control comparable to a standard application. In terms of spray volume savings with synthetics, there's greater potential to save on volume and wastage than with contact pesticides, which need higher volumes higher coverage to be efficacious.

Craig Macmillan 16:06

Now, you said you started with an with an out of the box sprayer. So when you started this, it was a machine - a whole sprayer that you got. That was all constructed. Is that right?

Brent Warneke 16:22

What I had meant to insinuate by that was it was a sprayer that we just took and used as it was, we actually started this project, kind of midway into its usage. So some folks back at Ohio State University and the USDA ARS over there, design the sprayer and kind of developed a concept model for it and prove that it worked pretty well. And then the next step of the project was to take that control system that they developed and retrofitted onto existing sprayers. And then that's where we came in. So we got just a standard 50 gallon air blast sprayer, and had this sensor system retrofitted onto the sprayer and use that system in our tests.

Craig Macmillan 17:10

How difficult was that?

Brent Warneke 17:12

So the retrofitting itself is not too difficult. So we have two of the systems in our research program. And one of them uses a research version of the system. The other one uses a commercial version of the system because it has since been commercialized. And when we got the commercial system installed, it only took about two hours, maybe two or three hours to get installed, and then also calibrated on to our crop that we were focusing on. So pretty quick. And the company has, you know, representatives and stuff throughout the West, and across the country. So they're able to come out and provide customer support for that.

Craig Macmillan 17:51

So if I'm a grower, I don't need to have a master's degree in Ag Engineering to implement this kind of an idea. This is something that I can I can take and I can do myself.

Brent Warneke 18:04

Yep, yeah, the technology is there. And there is support. And it can be run by any knowledgeable pesticide applicator one, one note, all I will say about these sensor systems is it's good to have someone who wants to use them and to take an interest in them. Because they do have more caveats than your standard sprayer would. And if you don't really put the time and really learn to use the system. You won't be able to realize its benefits as much as you potentially could.

Craig Macmillan 18:40

Yeah, so like anything else you have to there's a learning curve, but this one doesn't seem like it's too steep.

Brent Warneke 18:43

Yep, it's a tool. And it takes some practice, but it can give you some good benefits.

Craig Macmillan 18:49

Are there other ag technologies out there that you're excited about?

Brent Warneke 18:53

You mentioned remote sensing earlier, that's a technology that I'm very interested in in terms of being able to detect changes in plant canopies and use that as a way to detect what's going on in the field. I'm also interested in drones both as a way to collect some of that remote sensing data. But then also in terms of spraying. Yeah, there's there's just been an explosion in drone spraying technology. It's constantly evolving. So that's something that I would like to do some more research on is looking at how good is are these drones for spraying in specialty crops such as wine grapes, what can we do to use them in that capacity to actually get good disease control good coverage and get some good returns.

Craig Macmillan 19:45

I remember a while back seeing it was a remote controlled helicopter that was set up to be a sprayer for wine grapes. Are you familiar with that technology for me when we're talking about.

Brent Warneke 19:57

Yeah, I think those are maybe the yeah Mahara Maxi are mentioning, it looks like a little helicopter. And they've done tests with them, I think up in Napa and that area

Craig Macmillan 20:08

Is it the same concept?

Brent Warneke 20:09

It's the same concept. Most of the drones I'm referring to are kind of more the quadcopter, with the four different rotors on the top kind of your, your classical drone shape. Just larger. I mean, these things have wingspans of close to 10 feet.

Craig Macmillan 20:28

Oh, wow.

Brent Warneke 20:29

And they, some of them can have eight gallon tanks on them. So they're, they're pretty sizable.

Craig Macmillan 20:36

And then we need an operator. So we need somebody who has the training and the licensing to do that.

Brent Warneke 20:43

Yep.

Craig Macmillan 20:44

How far away is that kind of technology from being out in the world?

Brent Warneke 20:47

Well, the drone sprayers are being used right now. There's, there's folks in the Willamette Valley, where I live in work, that are using these things in all kinds of crops. Right now, it's a very wet winter here where we live, so the fields get muddy, it's hard to get equipment in there. So that's kind of one aspect that is really appealing about these drones is that they can get into these areas that are kind of difficult to reach with tractors. And the same goes for hilly terrain.

Craig Macmillan 21:17

Eight gallons does not sound like very much

Brent Warneke 21:19

No, no. So application rates that these drones are targeting are typically less than 10 gallons per acre, you know, two to five gallons per acre is pretty common. I'm not by any means an expert at this point. So I won't get into the details of using them too much. But that's that's part of the impetus for the research is there's kind of there hasn't been a lot of looking into how efficacious these things are in specialty crops. So that's something that I think is a good opportunity.

Craig Macmillan 21:52

You mentioned remote sensing. Tell me more about that. You were interested in drones. But are you interested in satellite, aerial, proximal, you know, you have some kind of a sensor on on a piece of equipment being an ATV or being on a tractor. Where does your interest lie in that world?

Brent Warneke 22:09

I think in terms of remote sensing, I definitely have interest in the drone space. Because with that type of surveillance, you're able to get a lot finer spatial resolution than you can with, say, a satellite, I do appreciate that satellites, you can get information and data on a much wider field of view. So you can track much larger areas easier. And there's lots of different options out there that are either low cost or free. But drones I've I want to focus on a little bit more just because they're widely available. And lots of farms may already have them. And you can get very fine spatial resolution, which could allow determination of plant stressors such as disease, or localized water stress, or kind of other stresses with hopefully more precision than using satellite based technologies.

Craig Macmillan 23:10

With things like vine stress or disease pressure, can that be combined, either directly or indirectly, in combination with your on the ground spray application that can inform what you do?

Brent Warneke 23:21

Yeah, definitely, the spray application technology that we talked on a little bit earlier, was mostly in reference to real time sensor applications. So these are sprayers that go through the field, and adjust that what they're applying in real time based on what the sensor is seeing as it drives through the field. But there's other systems out there that use more of a prescription map approach, where they will take these remote sensing maps, or maps that are created from sensors on tractors, and then use that data to construct a prescription map. Where that is actually used. The map itself is actually used to adjust the amount of spray applied in a given area.

Craig Macmillan 24:06

Where are we going into the future? What kind of what actually I guess what I'm really asking is what kind of projects are you looking forward to. Is the current work ongoing? Are you starting new things? Where do you where do you want to go next?

Brent Warneke 24:16

Yeah, so our current work is, you know, as research tends to, it's always ongoing, there's other things always developing. So we're definitely continuing looking at biological fungicides. One aspect of biological fungicides that we want to delve into is kind of the compatibility. So what can we mix these things with? Is there any impact on the viability of these biological organisms that are in the products? Another thing is, are we affecting viability by using them in these various sprayers? So if we put these products through these airblast sprayers or through drone spraying systems and the like, is there any impact in their efficacy because they're expensive, and they're a lot they're alive. So those are some Some aspects. And then with the drones, I hope to do some research on looking at sprayer efficacy, specifically in wine grapes, and potentially other specialty crops as well, just to get some data on some of the spray parameters. So droplet size, volume per acre, how is that impacting coverage and efficacy? Those are, those are two things I definitely want to delve into.

Craig Macmillan 25:25

Cool, what one thing what one message, or recommendation do you make to our listeners regarding these topics, overall?

Brent Warneke 25:34

I would say that there's always a place to start to improve your spray efficiency. So we've been talking about sensor array sprayers and drones and remote sensing. And they're all kind of big technologies. But you don't need to worry about any of that if you just want to increase your application efficiency. I've looked and I work with other colleagues that work with spray application technology. And you can do what's called canopy adaptive spraying, which is basically working backwards from coverage on the spray cards to adjust your spray volume and the air volume that your sprayer is putting out to match the canopy. And actually looking at that in detail can save quite a bit of time and money and pesticide wastage by really targeting and matching that spray application output to the canopy itself. So that involves adjusting the spray volume using different nozzles and adjusting the air volume that's getting expelled at the sprayer by either changing the RPMs of the tractor driving faster or slower, or various ways like that. And then circling back to getting you know better good coverage. That's that will be efficacious with your products. And then on top of that standard sprayer, if you want to take it one more step, you could look into one of these sensor based systems, which could be retrofitted on your standard sprayer and increase efficiency in that way. And then on top of that, there's other autonomous sprayers that are out there that can take even more labor out of the equation. And many of those can be fitted with these sensors to increase their efficiency even more. And then if we want to take it one more step, then using some of this remote sensing data can even help streamline these things even more.

Craig Macmillan 27:32

So there's lots of things we can do. They don't all have to be rocket science, but the science is out there. And it's coming to us in new forms constantly, which I think is really exciting. The one of the things that got me excited about your work was, like you said, you know, the basic airblast style sprayer has been around for forever. We have all gotten very used to it. That's like the base technology. And I think it's a great message to say, we don't have to stop there. We can keep going we can make improvements on what we have. And it doesn't have to be, you know, skull crushingly difficult.

Brent Warneke 28:05

Yep, there's always some way that we can improve. Yep.

Craig Macmillan 28:09

Well, thank you, Brent. Our guest today has been Brent Warneke. He is senior faculty research assistant in the Department of Horticulture at Oregon State University. So I'm really excited about the work that you're doing. And it's really, really great. And I hope that you can get your message out there and help people reduce their pesticide load and improve their efficiency. You know, less labor, less diesel, less water. Those are all good things. So thanks for being on the podcast. Brent.

Brent Warneke 28:34

Definitely. Thank you very much for having me.

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

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You may be wondering, what do emotions have to do with simple, everyday decisions? It turns out, quite a lot!

A 2023 Wine Glass Marketing (WGM) blog post points to Harvard Business School professor Gerard Zaltman’s findings that 95% of our purchase decisions comes from our subconscious, emotional brain.

Leveraging common psychological triggers in your marketing can help drive more sales!

In this Marketing Tip, we’ll help you identify how your brand elicits positive emotions, and what you can do with that information.

Positive Emotional Triggers in Marketing

Think about some of the things that give you positive emotions:

Recognition: either for something you did, or for just being you!
Achievement: completing a task, winning a game or raffle, etc.
Engagement: in an activity or setting, whether solo or social.

From a marketing perspective, these can be achieved by:

Personal communications with wine club members and regular visitors.
Recommending products based on previous likes.
Rewards programs, punch cards, discounts for special occasions, etc.
Fostering an environment that aligns with your customer base:
Soft background music versus upbeat dance tunes.
Dim, romantic lighting for intimate conversations versus areas to play.

Can you think of more ways to elicit positive emotions from your members and visitors?

A Personalized Approach

Since every wine club is unique, how you use these tips must be tailored to your specific brand.

Start by gathering data: How do people engage with your brand?

Check out the click rates of your club emails. Which links get the most attention?
Look at your tasting room traffic. Who is there, and what do they tend to do?
What kind of social media posts get the most engagement? The ones that showcase the views, animals, events, or staff at your property?

Then, ask yourself if you can infer their possible motivations. Are your guests looking for:

An opportunity to score a deal on their favorite wine.
The sense of connection that comes from being engaged with your brand.
A social event or place to interact with others.
Information about your products and/or processes.

Take everything you’ve gathered from this exercise and think of ways to shift your current marketing efforts to include more of what gives your customer-base positive emotions.

Tell Your Sustainable Story

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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Erratic weather like deluge rain, longer falls, and patches of drought disrupt vinifera’s adaptation to long-sustained winters. Jason Londo, Associate Professor of Horticulture in the School of Integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell AgriTech explains how big weather changes in the Pacific North East can cause vines to wake up earlier posing a risk to freeze or frost damage. By researching acclimation and deacclimation, Jason is working to breed and select varieties for enhanced cold resistance, drought resistance, pest resistance, plus good fruit quality. In the future, to reduce inputs in vineyards and increase economic sustainability we need to put the right grape in the right climate.

Resources: * 135: Cold Hardiness of Grapevines * Cold Hardiness prediction model and monitoring website for the Eastern US * Foliar Applied Abscisic Acid Increases ‘Chardonnay’ Grapevine Bud Freezing Tolerance during Autumn Cold Acclimation * Jason Londo * Jason Londo’s Recent Publications * Vitis Underground: NSF-PGRP project looking at rootstock-scion interaction across multiple environments.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Jason Londo. He is Associate Professor of horticulture in the School of integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell agritech. We're gonna talk about some pretty cool stuff today. Thanks for coming on the show. Jason,

Jason Londo 0:11

Thank you for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:12

Your work tends to center around identifying things like climate induced disorders, developing medication methods, improving resiliency and sustainability of crops like apples and grapes. How did you become interested in that that's a pretty interesting area.

Unknown Speaker 0:26

Originally, I was mostly interested in how plants adapt to stress just in general plants, because they're stuck to the ground that the seed lands on they are forced with so many complicated life's challenges, that it's really amazing what a plant can do in the face of stress. And so my curiosity has always been trying to figure out those strategies. But climate induced part of it is sort of reality striking into my passion, right? We know the climate is shifting, and it is shifting those stresses in a way that our plants can't necessarily respond in the same way that they used to, particularly because of the rate of climate change. So that's how I got interested in this topic, just trying to figure out how plants work when they're stressed out.

Craig Macmillan 1:13

And you're interested in plants in general. And then now you're focusing on specific crops, right?

Jason Londo 1:18

Yes, indeed, I started out originally working on endangered mints. If you can imagine that. Then I worked on rice. Then I worked on canola and I landed and fruit crops. And so yeah, lots of lots of diversity in those systems. All those plants have different stresses.

Craig Macmillan 1:35

They're all different families. I mean, he really jumped around.

Jason Londo 1:37

Oh, yeah. One of the coolest things about working in plant stress is plants across different clades evolved different ways of handling maybe the same stress. And you can learn a lot about sort of the limitations of stress response and the advantages and opportunities when you work across a lot of different systems. And so it makes for a tricky CV, because my publications kind of snake all over the place. But from trying to figure out the next strategy or figure out the next experiment, I feel like it's a real positive to have that background.

Craig Macmillan 2:13

I want to go back for a second because I think this is an important topic. And you mentioned clade. What is a clade? And how does that apply to looking at plant stress?

Jason Londo 2:24

And its most basic a clade is a group of plants that belong to the same sort of evolutionary history, and without getting into the real jargony. And the fights between what makes a species and what doesn't make a species. The basic concept is an evolutionary group. And so when I talk about plant stress strategies and differences between clades if we think about rice, it's a monocot. And so it has a completely different evolutionary lineage from most of our dicot fruit crops. Canola is a dicot it's a mustard. Both rice and canola are typically annualized, maybe sometimes there's a perennial version, when we talk about fruit crops, we're talking about, in my case, grapes and apples, Woody perennials, so dicot species that persists for many, many years. And so the strategies that are successful for for getting through a stressful situation can vary very much by those different life histories.

Craig Macmillan 3:24

We're kind of talking about stresses in general, what are particular stresses on things like apples and grapes that you're looking at.

Jason Londo 3:29

So in my program, it has a climate adaptation focus. And we all know that the main drivers behind climate change are temperature and precipitation. And here in the northeast, we do have a benefit in that we've got some room to get warm before it gets uncomfortable. And we have plenty of rain. But what we're seeing here is big changes in our winter weather shifts in our phonology. So the spring is coming earlier, the fall is coming later. And then we're also having big changes in precipitation. So little patches of drought, deluge, rain, and so very different from California, where things may be drying out. We're drying out, but in a very episodic sort of pattern. And the systems here are not built on drought management. They're not built so much on water logging either, although we do use tiling in the fields to Drain off excess water. And so when we're talking about climate impacts, here are primarily talking about temperature and shifts in precipitation.

I know that you've been looking at cold hardiness. What has been the pattern? What's the change that's happening in the Northeast as far as cold goes?

Yeah, so most of my career, as a as a PI has been in cold hardiness and cold stress response in grapes. I spent 10 years at the USDA as a geneticist, particularly diving into this topic, and even in those 10 years years I've seen a major shift in the intensity of our winters they are getting much more mild, but they're also coming very erratic. And so we're having large swings in temperature. I'm sure your listeners are familiar with the concept of a polar vortex we've had enough of them. Now, that is pretty common. When you take a perennial crops like grape, and you put it through winter, it's it's adapted to a long, sustained winter, not a real chaotic, episodic type winter where it gets warm and cold and warm than cold. The the complex molecular components of what tells the grape that it's safe to wake up don't function as well when you have those erratic temperatures. And so we're seeing, in general more mild, which is good for baseline cold hardiness, but also an uptick in sort of chaos. And that's not good for for any form of cold hardiness. And it particularly affects late winter, because the the plants wake up. As they're coming into spring, they respond to heat. And when you have weird weather in that really late winter, early spring, they can wake up too early and then suffer a lot of freeze damage or frost damage if they happen to break bud.

Craig Macmillan 6:11

What is the mechanism around freeze damage? I've interviewed some folks from like Michigan and Iowa and Ohio, we don't have freeze damage in California very much Washington, obviously. What are the parameters there? How cold for how long? And what's the actual mechanism of damage to the volume?

Jason Londo 6:29

Yeah, great questions. Very complicated questions.

Craig Macmillan 6:35

That's why we're here.

Jason Londo 6:35

Yeah, yeah. All grapes gain cold hardiness in the winter, regardless of where they are, it's a part of going dormant and making it through winter. The biggest changes that we see in the vine is that the buds will isolate from the vasculature. And so the little connections that come from the xylem and the phloem, into the bud, they actually get clogged up with pectins. And so you have to think of the bud is sort of like a little island tissue, it's not connected to the cane during winter. Once the bud does that it's able to gain cold hardiness and traverse winter. And that process is called acclamation. And so the buds gain a greater and greater ability to survive lower and lower temperatures. We don't know exactly how all of it works. But it's a mixture of making more sugars and making more Ozma protectant inside the buds so that water freezes at lower temperatures and also controlled dehydration. So the more you can dehydrate a tissue, the less likely ice crystals will form in pure water. But and we don't know how they do this. And it's quite magical if you think about it, but they're able to suck out all of this internal water so that it is less and less likely for water to freeze inside the cell. If they can keep the ice crystals from forming inside the cell. We call that cold hardiness that they they are surviving freeze damage, we can measure the temperature that reaches that defense. And you've had other speakers on your show that have talked about cold hardiness. It's called differential thermal analysis. And we basically measure the precise temperature where the water freezes through some tricks of thermodynamics, that cold hardiness failure point changes throughout the whole winter, and it changes by the location that the grape is growing in. What we do know about the system is that it takes oscillating temperatures to gain cold hardiness. So it has to get warm than cold warm than cold, warm than cold and progressively colder in order to ramp down and gain cold hardiness, then it has to stay cold for the cold hardiness to sort of hang out at the maximum cold hardiness. And that maximum cold heartedness is going to differ by region. So here in New York, something like Chardonnay will reach a maximum cold hardiness of maybe negative 27 Celsius. I cannot do the Fahrenheit conversion,.

Craig Macmillan 9:00

That's fine. That's fine.

Jason Londo 9:03

But say, say negative 27 Fahrenheit, whereas in California, it may not gain more than negative 20. And that's because it just doesn't get pushed. As you go through winter. You go through a whole bunch of other stuff with dormancy chilling our requirement, and that changes the way that the bud responds to temperature. And you enter a phase called Eco dormancy, which is now resistance to freezing based on how cold the vineyard is. And so when you get warm spikes in late winter, when the buds are eco dormant. They think those are a little preview that it's springtime and so they lose their cold heartedness really quickly they start reabsorbing that water, and they'll freeze that warmer and warmer temperatures. And so that's really the most dangerous time in this sort of climate chaos. When you think about winter that late winter period is when the vines are reacting with their adaptive complex for 1000s of years. When it started to warm up. It meant it was spring and now they're starting To think, okay, spring is coming. But we're still in February in New York, maybe in. In California. It's more like it's January and you're getting a warming event. And they all move right towards bud break. And then of course, they can get hit pretty hard by a leak freeze or a frost.

Craig Macmillan 10:15

Yeah, exactly. I'm guessing this varies by variety.

Jason Londo 10:19

Yes, very much. So, vinifera varieties are typically less hardy than the North American adapted varieties, the, the hybrid varieties is often gets used. I don't particularly like the word hybrid. But these cold climate grapes that have been bred by University of Minnesota and Cornell, they tend to have greater maximum cold hardiness. But they also tend to wake up in the spring much faster. And that's partly because of the genetic background that those hybrids were made from. When you breed with species that come from the far north, like Vitis riparia, those species are adapted to a very short growing season, which means as soon as it's warm enough to start growing, they go for it to try to get through their entire cycle. So now we're starting to see that there are some potential issues with climate change when we think about hybrid varieties that use those those northern species, and that they may be more prone to frost damage in the future.

Craig Macmillan 11:15

Oh, really, that's I wouldn't have thought that I would have thought the opposite. So obviously, we have different species. So we have some genetic differences between what I'll call wild grapes or native grapes, the Oh, invasive plant itis vinifera that has been thrown around. What can we learn by looking at the genetics of native North American varieties?

Jason Londo 11:38

from a cold hardiness perspective,

Craig Macmillan 11:40

cold hardness, just in general drought resistance, pest resistance?

Jason Londo 11:44

Well, in general, they're a massive resource for improvement, which depends on who is who's calling a species species. But there may be up to 20 Different wild species in North America. And each of those wild species has a different evolutionary trajectory that has given it the ability to create adaptive gene complexes, that could be useful in viticulture, as we have shifting climate, away from what maybe vinifera likes, hot and dry into further northern latitudes, you know, that if the California industry has to start moving up in latitude or up in altitude, we start integrating different stresses that maybe those vines haven't been exposed to in their evolutionary history, you know, from Europe. And so these wild species just have these potentially novel genes, potentially novel pathways where genes are interacting with one another, that give vines a greater plasticity. And so this concept of plasticity is if you take an individual and you put it in environment a, and it grows to size 10, but you put it in environment B and it grows to size 20. The difference there is the plasticity between those two environments. And we really, if we want sustainable viticulture, what we want to encourage is using cultivars that have maximal plasticity. So as the environment shifts around them, they're still able to give you the same yield the same sugars, the same quality, you know, within a within an error bar anyway, they're the most resilient over time. And incorporating traits and pathways that come from wild grapes can help build that plasticity in the genetic background coming from the European great.

Craig Macmillan 13:23

So we're talking about crosses, we're talking about taking a native plant and then vinifera crossing to create something new. You had said that you don't know you don't care for the word hybrid. Why not? That's interesting to me.

Jason Londo 13:35

Because it has a negative connotation in the wine drinker. realm, right people think of hybrids as lower quality as not vinifera, so lesser. And I think I'm not an enologists. I'm not a viticulturalists. So I want to be careful on whose toes I mash. But if we're talking about sustainability of a crop through an erratic climate, we can do a lot with vinifera we can we can mitigate climate change a lot with vinifera, but at some point, the inputs may become too much to make it a sustainable crop and then we need to be able to move to adapted varieties. And we can adapt the wine quality from vinifera to climate chaos, by breeding and and selecting for enhanced cold resistance, enhanced drought resistance, enhance pest resistance, and good fruit quality. That's a little bit of a soapbox. But when people say hybrid, it's like lesser, but it's, in my opinion, it's more we're taking something great. And we are increasing its plasticity across the the country across the growing zones. We are giving it a chance to grow in more regions reach more local communities create a bigger fan base. So I get really my hackles got up because there is amazing hybrid based on Climate adapted based wines, and winemakers. And when we use the word hybrid people just automatically in their mind shifted into lesser. And I think that's unfortunate. I think it's something that we need to work actively as an industry against, because a lot of those particular disease resistance traits are coming from wild germ plasm. That is not in the European grape. And we just can't solve all our problems with that one species.

Craig Macmillan 15:30

So the kinds of traits that we're talking about these environmental adaptations, or acclamations, these will be polygenic trades, how do you find these? I'm assuming that you're looking for those specific genetic information to say, Yeah, this is the plant that I want to use in my my breeding program. What does that look like? How do you do that?

Jason Londo 15:49

So the approaches are very similar to when you're working on single locus traits. And so disease resistance and fruit color are good examples of traits that often can be found in single locus examples, again, would be fruit color, or sort of run one disease resistance, there's a whole bunch of different disease resistance was like polygenic traits can be found the same way, you have to make a cross between two different grapes that have different phenotypes. And so that might be a drug sensitive, and a drought tolerant individual. And you plant out a whole lot of baby grapes 200, 300 progeny from that cross, and then you score them with phenotypes. And with polygenic traits, it's a lot harder to find them sometimes, because in that group of, say, 300, babies, you're not looking for the movement of one gene. In that background, you're looking for maybe the movement of five to 10 different genes. And that means instead of getting a light switch kind of trait, red or white fruit, you're getting a little bit more drought resistant, a whole lot more drought resistant, but there is a gradient, right? When you have a gradient for a phenotype, you need a lot more grape babies in order to get the statistical support to say, hey, this piece of the genome right here, this makes a grape, a little bit more drought resistant. And over here, this piece of the genome does the same thing. And when you put them together, they either add up one plus one, or sometimes they multiply two times two, you use the same approaches, it's typically a little trickier. And you got to kind of do a couple extra years of screening. But it's the same basic playbook to track down those different traits. And we have to do a lot of different phenotypes for drought response, you might be looking for the ability to root deeper, have bigger root masses, you might be looking at bigger hydraulic conductance in the trunk, you might be looking at betters to model control. You might be looking at pyres to model density or lowers to model density, you could be looking at thicker or thinner leaves. So you can imagine if there's lots of ways to be more drought resistant. There's lots of genes that help you in that pursuit. You need a lot of baby grapes in order to find all those little pockets where those genes come together and give you a statistical shift and in the phenotype.

Craig Macmillan 18:10

So you're able to identify these are you using something like qualitative trait?

Jason Londo 18:13

Exactly. Quantitative trait loci?

Craig Macmillan 18:16

Yes, exactly. So that helps speed the process up a little bit. Maybe.

Unknown Speaker 18:20

Yeah, so so QTL mapping, quantitative trait loci mapping is the probably the dominant way that we map traits. There's another way called GWAS, genome wide association studies, is built on the same concept where you have a big enough population of either grape babies or in the case of GWAS its diversity. So you'd say, let's say you had 200 Different Vitis riparias instead of 200. Babies, the principle is the same. You are looking for across all of those vines, statistical association between a specific part of the genome and a phenotype to like make it really simple. In 200 babies, grape babies, you want to have enhanced drought resistance. You let's say we take a measurement of carbon isotope concentration and so that carbon isotopes tell you how often the stomates are open, right? So you do an experiment. And you drought stress your plants, and you use carbon isotopes as the phenotype and you say, Okay, this group of 75 individuals, they all shut their stomates right away, and this other group of 125, they kept their stomates open. So then in those two groups, you look at all the genetic markers that are in the background, right, which are like little signposts across the genome. And you say, in this group of 75, which genetic markers do we see over and over and over again, outside of statistical randomness, right? And what that will give you a peek a QTL peak, if you're lucky, right, I'll give you a cue to help you can say hey, right here on chromosome four, every single baby in that pool has a has this set of markers, these five Mark occurs. So there must be a gene, somewhere near these five markers that contribute to closing your stomates. And so then extrapolate that out whatever trait you want to look at how whatever phenotype method you're using, maybe it's not carbon isotope, maybe it's leaf mass, maybe it's node number, I don't know, whatever that screening process is, the concept is the same. You have big enough population, a good genetic marker background, and a phenotype that you can measure. And you can find the statistical associations.

Craig Macmillan 20:32

And actually, that reminds me of something, how many chromosomes do grapes have?

Jason Londo 20:36

Well, bunch grapes have 19 muscadine. grapes have 20.

Craig Macmillan 20:39

That's a lot. Which means that there's a lot of genetic variation in the genome of these plants, then.

Jason Londo 20:47

Yeah, if you think about, I mean, grape is sort of a funky beast, because a lot of these varieties that we grow, they're all They're all of the arrays, we grow our clonal. And some of them are 1000s of years old, the same genetic individual from 7000 to 10,000 years ago, we still have around today, in that process, it's it's changed, right? There's mutations that happen in the field all the time. And so even thinking about genetic clones and thinking the idea of Chardonnay being around that long, it's changed in those 7000 years, just naturally. So when you think about comparing two different clones, or two different cultivars, or clones, there's something like 43,000 Different recognized genes in vitis vinifera, that number I can give you in the different wild species, because it varies by species, but roughly 40,000 at those 40,000 genes in a in a single individual, you can have up to two different copies, right. So you could have essentially 80,000 different alleles, then you go across, I don't know, what do we have 12,000 recognized cultivars or something like that? There are something like 60 Grape species. And so now imagine the amount of potential variation you have across that entire gene pool. And so yeah, the genetic diversity within the crop as a whole is incredible. There's a lot of room for improvement. And there's a lot of room for climate adaptation. Just takes a lot of grape babies to figure it out.

Craig Macmillan 22:12

And that brings us something else. And that is the the idea of mutation. One of the issues, I think that is a stumbling block, and you mentioned it, there is the consumer, if it's not Cabernet Sauvignon, can't call it Cabernet Sauvignon. I'm not as interesting, which is something that I think we need some help from the marketing world with. Because I agree with you very much. I think if we're going to have wine in the future, we're going to have to start thinking about things other than just the cultivars that we have. Now, can you do the same kind of work with but mutation? Can you take a cane grew from a button, plant that out and look for differences between the same plant?

Jason Londo 22:53

Yeah, so you're basically talking about clonal selection clonal selection is practice worldwide by different regions, always with this eye towards making something that we currently have a little bit better or a little bit more unique, right, somatic mutations, random mutations occur in the genetic background all the time. And they often occur in response to stress, which is a really interesting angle, if you think about climate stress. So these mutations happen all the time in the background. Frequently, they will land on pieces of DNA that don't do anything that we know up. I don't want to say that no DNA is unimportant, that there are sections that we don't believe are that important. We call these non coding regions are sometimes introns. When you have a mutation in that area, sometimes there's no effect on the vine at all. And that's happening all the time in the fields. Right now. If you think about all the 1000s to millions of cab sauv vines that are growing in the world, we like to think of them even if you pick a single clone as the same genetic individual. And that is, that's simply not possible. There's so much background mutation going on in those parts of the DNA that don't give us any change in phenotype. There's no way it's all the same. We'd like to simplify it. We'd like to simplify it for our drinking behavior, as well as you know, like our sanity. But yes, you can select for clonal variation. And clonal variation happens all the time when those changes happen to land in a gene producing region, exon or perhaps a promoter or, or even in a transposable element to make a piece of DNA jump around the genome, we get a new clone, you can purposely create clones as well. So it happens naturally, but you can create clones on your own and mutational breeding is something that gets used in a lot of crop species in grapes it doesn't get used as often because it's modifying the base plant, right? So if you take Chardonnay and you want to increase his disease resistance, if it doesn't have a gene that you can break or change that would give it more disease resistance, then you can't create a clone with more disease resistance, right? You're working with a big a base plant that has limitations, but we have So we have a population where this was done it was it was done actually by the USDA by Dr. Amanda Garis. She no longer works for the USDA, but she worked here in Geneva. And they did a project where they took the variety of vignoles, which has a very compact cluster and tends to get a lot of rot. And they took a bunch of dormant canes with the buds, and they put it in a high powered X ray machine at the hospital and blasted it with X rays. What X ray damage does to DNA is it causes breaks between the double strands so all of our DNA and all our genes are wrapped up in in double stranded DNA. And when you do DNA damage with X ray mutagenesis, you break the two strands. And then when they heal themselves back together, it's often imperfect. And so they'll often lose a couple base pairs like there'll be a little piece get that gets nipped out. When you put those two pieces back together and repair, if that landed in exon, you can sometimes change the protein that would have been made by that exon or completely knocked the gene out in its entirety. Creating a clone, you're just doing it faster than nature is doing it on its own. We do it with a hospital X ray machine. And so with this method, they created about 1000 clones of vignoles. And they've made I think 10 selections out of that group that have bigger, looser clusters, so the berries are further spaced out. So they don't get damaged, they don't get as much rot. And I think those are now starting to make their way out into trials. There's an example of a very directed approach to creating a clone to fit fit a very specific viticultural problem that may or may not work for climate adaptation because of the polygenic aspect that you brought up before. Because if you break one gene and a poly genic, adaptive complex, it may not be enough to shift the entire physiology into a recognizably different pattern, it could work to make them less resilient, because you could break something that's really important. But breaking something that's important, but works out for you in the long run is just playing that randomizer lottery a little bit further. So it's doable. It can happen in nature, it can happen on purpose in our hands, but it is trickier for certain traits.

Craig Macmillan 27:21

So we're not going to X ray our way out of climate problems, basically, or diseases problems, right? Well, there may not be the right genetic information in the background of vinifera that even if we tried that, we'd have that set of genes that we would need, whereas we would have it in a native, native vine North American vine.

Jason Londo 27:42

And just a sheer a sheer number of breaks that you might have to make in order to shift the physiology enough to matter. These climate adaptation pathways are highly networked. They involve hormones, they involve sugar metabolism. And so if you really break something important, it's going to cause a really bad phenotype of death phenotype, you have to nudge the system enough in a specific direction to make a meaningful change. And so, given the complexity of the trade, it makes it harder. I don't want to say anything is impossible. I do think that there would be ways to make vinifera better, more plastic in the environment. I think the potential is there for vinifera to do better in a lot of climates. I don't know if directed mutagenesis is the most efficient way to do it. I mentioned is that random, right, you're breaking double stranded DNA at random, and then it's really healing and there's so many things have to work out for you to hit the right gene, have the right repair, you know, all of that sort of stuff that it's a method, but I don't I wouldn't say it's the most efficient method breeding with wild germ plasm is also a method, the key weakness there is then it's no longer Chardonnay, right from our wine drinking sort of our own personal biases on that situation. We outcross Chardonnay to make it more climate resilient. It's no longer Chardonnay. So it can't be sold as Chardonnay. And that itself creates a market pressure against changing it to something that's more resilient. And I think until the climate imparts an equal level of pain as consumer pressure, we won't get there. I don't think it's a question of if it will happen. It's a question of when.

Craig Macmillan 29:23

What kind of projects are you working on currently? You've mentioned experiments and breeding and it's now what do you what do you up to?

Jason Londo 29:29

So I have a pretty diverse program climate impacts is all season so we have a lot of winter projects. And we've covered some of that now trying to understand how Acclimation and deaacclimation work and if we can enhance it, we're working with but birth control. So if we could slow down deacclimation and delay by break, we could get around frost damage. And then I'm also working on a really big project is actually coming to an end where we've been looking at what the role of a rootstock is our mapping population concept that we talked about for QTL Mapping, we were talking about the scion, I have a project where we did that with the rootstock. And so we created a mapping population. The only part that is the grape babies is the roots. And we've grafted the same variety onto those roots. And then we're looking at how the different grape baby roots change the scions behavior. A really cool thing about this project is that we've replicated it clonally replicated it and grafted it in three different locations. So we have a vineyard in Missouri, a vineyard in South Dakota and a vineyard here in New York. And so across those three different environments, which are quite different, both in maximum temperature, minimum temperature and precipitation, we're learning so many cool things about what the roots can do to the same scion for your listeners, of course, they know grapes, so they know hopefully enough about grafting and that the rootstock and the scion are two different individuals. And they're mechanically grafted together. From a climate adaptation point of view, what you've done is you've taken an intact and adapted individual, and you've cut its head off, and then you've taken another climate adapted individual, and you've cut its legs off, and you've glued them together, and ask them to perform in the environment, which is just a wild, wild communication question. When the roots are experiencing one environment, and the shoot is experiencing another, how do they communicate? And then how does that affect our grape quality and wine quality? And so we're looking at drought response, can we increase the drought resistance of the Scion, based on the type of root it's on? Can we change the leaf nutrient profile, so the different ions that are taken up from the soil and how they're concentrated in the leaves. And of course, we don't really care about the leaves as much as we care about the fruit, the leaves are easy to work with. And we're even started working on wine quality. And so it looks like across our experiments, we might be able to optimize the rootstock and scion combinations we grow in different climates. To produce specific wind quality attributes, which is really cool.

Craig Macmillan 32:00

That is really cool. That is really cool. We're just about out of time. But I want to is there one thing on the on these topics that you would like or recommend to our listeners, or you'd like our listeners to know?

Jason Londo 32:11

Oh, well, I think their take home is is that we should all appreciate the new cultivars that come on the scene, whether they be from early regions like the the Eastern caucuses, something that we are not used to having in this country, or its climate adapted varieties that are bred in this country, and grown in these different regions. We need to do our best to open our minds not to does this grape or that grape tastes like cab sauv, or tastes like Chardonnay. But isn't it amazing what this grape tastes like period, because a lot of the the advances in resilience and sustainability that we can get out of either adopting new cultivars, shifting cultivars from climate to climate, or by using hybrid varieties in different regions, all of the benefits that we can get out of growing the right kind of grapes in the right climate, reduces inputs in the vineyard reduces inputs on the ecology. It increases the economic stability of rural communities. And it gives you pride in what the local region can produce. And I guess my take home would be is drink more adapted wines, enjoy them, figure out the nuances. Some of them are not great, but some of them are really great. drink more wine.

Craig Macmillan 33:33

Where can people find out more about you and your work?

Jason Londo 33:36

So the easiest way is just to Google my name and Cornell and that will take you right to my Cornell page. There's not a lot of information on my Cornell page, and I'm a big procrastinator on my personal website. But you can find my contact information there and certainly get a hold of me directly. If there's anything of interest. I will also send you some links that you can use to take listeners to the Vitis underground project, which is the NSF rootstock project I talked about, I can send you a link to we have a cold hardiness website where we post prediction models that we've built about cold hardiness across most of the Eastern US. We hope to expand that to be nationwide once once I get a stronger computer, but I can send you some links there. Yeah, I would say that that's probably the best places to find information on me and the program here. And if people are in town to come and see Cornell Agrotech and see some of the stuff in the field.

Craig Macmillan 34:30

I would love to pay a visit. I've interviewed a number of your colleagues there and there's so much cool stuff going on. really innovative and really groundbreaking feel like we're on the leading edge of a wave that some point is going to break again. Maybe we'll be drinking wines other than the ones we've been drinking. I can see that happening. Anyway. So our guest today was Jason Londo. He's Associate Professor of horticulture in the School of integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell agritech. Thank you.

Jason Londo 34:55

Thanks

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

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People today are paying closer attention to the values of the brands they support.

Research conducted by Harris Poll revealed that 82% of shoppers prefer a consumer brand’s values to align with their own, and they’ll vote with their wallet if they don’t feel a match.

In addition to consumers voting with their dollars, Harris Poll found that 75% of shoppers surveyed have even parted ways with a brand over a conflict in values!

Sustainable winegrowers and winemakers can easily connect with conscious consumers over these 7 values."

Social Responsibility Practicing social responsibility helps foster healthy relationships at work and in the community:
Treat employees and the community with care and respect.
Get involved in charity work, volunteering, & donations.
Are aware of the impacts of the business (social and environmental!).
Water Management Did you know that less than 1% of our planet’s water is accessible freshwater we can use to fulfill our daily needs?

Sustainable wine brands do! That’s why they:

Use native plants for landscaping and cover crops.
Conduct plant and soil tests to determine irrigation needs.
Collect and reuse wastewater.
Safe Pest Management Both commercial and hobbyist farmers deal with pesky pests that damage crops, steal resources, and spread diseases.

Sustainable winegrowers use an informed and tailored approach to tackling their farm’s unique and dynamic pest complex:

Introduce beneficial insects to challenge insect pests.
Attract birds of prey to hunt vertebrate pests.
Manage canopy and fruit density to reduce mildew pressure.

All of these practices are part of an Integrated Pest Management (IPM) system.

Energy Efficiency Making wine is an energy-intensive process. Whether from fuel, battery, or electricity, energy is used at every step of the process that turn grapes to wine.

With so many uses of energy, there are many ways to improve efficiency:

Reduce tractor passes with vineyard equipment that covers multiple rows.
Reduce energy use by properly insulating tanks and buildings.
Reduce dependence on fossil-fuel—based electricity with alternative sources like wind and solar.
Habitat Sustainable winegrowers cultivate a biologically-diverse ecosystem that sets the vineyard up to thrive without excessive use of inputs like water and fertilizers:
Create and adhering to conservation plans.
Maintain wildlife corridors to give wildlife safe passage.
Preserve open, uncropped areas so native plant and wildlife species have a home.
Business Sound and responsible business practices help set a business up for long-term success:
Annual and multi-year budgets.
Accurate record keeping.
Offer benefits packages and competitive pay.
Always Evolving In order to stay successful and relevant, sustainable businesses constantly look for opportunities to learn more and evolve:
Attend and host educational events.
Subscribe to local and industry news.
Provide education and upward movement opportunities for employees.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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Adding biochar as a soil amendment creates an ideal habitat for beneficial microorganisms. Sitos Group CEO and Co-founder Mayo Ryan and PR, Marketing, and Communications Manager Jessica Bronner explain how biochar amendments improve disease resistance, plant health, pest resistance, water retention, and drought mitigation. The team explains three different ways to make biochar and why they have chosen to use the slow pyrolysis method to ultimately produce biochar for different soil types.

Resources: * REGISTER: February 16, 2024 Biochar in the Vineyard * 56: Conservation Burning and Biochar * 106: What? Bury Charcoal in the Vineyard? * 167: Use Biochar to Combat Climate Change * Burn: Igniting a New Carbon Drawdown Economy to End the Climate Crisis * Carbon Removal FAQ * Monterey Pacific Inc. * New Science Says Biochar is Very Permanent * Regeneration * Regeneration: Ending the Climate Crisis in One Generation * Sitos Group * Sitos Group Biochar Page * Sitos Group Blog * Sitos Group Social Channels: LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube * United States Biochar Initiative * Why ‘regenerative viticulture’ is gaining ground among major wine producers

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today are Mayo Ryan. He is CEO and co founder of the Sitos Group and also his colleague, Jessica Bronner, who is the PR marketing communications manager for the Sitos roup as well. Thank you both for being here.

Mayo Ryan 0:12

You're welcome, Craig. Hey, happy to be here.

Jessica Bronner 0:14

It's a pleasure.

Craig Macmillan 0:16

So what is the Sitos Group? What do you folks do? How did it start? I know the answers to these questions, but like why are we here? Today we're going to talk about biochar. But where are you focusing? What do you do?

Mayo Ryan 0:29

Well, you know, when we when we figure it out, I think we'll let you know but anyway, where we are today is Sitos Group is a California based biochar manufacture and carbon removal company and we got started two years ago. It was a really great collaboration between myself and our co founder Steve McIntyre. Steve is the owner, founder and owner of Monterey Pacific, which is a very large vineyard management company, based in solid California about an hour south of Salinas and Monterey Pacific farms about 18,000 acres of wine grapes in the Monterey County and San Luis Obispo areas. Steve's a winemaker and has his own winery. And he started using biochar with his in house soil scientist Dr. Doug Beck. almost 10 years ago, Doug has spent a lifetime in Far East Asia perfecting and understand the use of biochar and brought it to Monterey Pacific. They've perfected that use. And so, Stephen Monterey Pacific along with Doug had the use of biochar and winegrapes down I started my journey into biochar in late 2017. Designing and building an almond processing company in Northern California, in that process wanted to do something different to the almond shell market is is really valueless. It's a valueless byproduct almond hole is used in cattle feed in that year, the price dropped by 75%. So we were looking for an alternative income source in the form of almond shell and the next year and 2018, Kathleen Draper and Albert Bates wrote this seminal book called Burn and oddly enough, coincidentally, Steve and I read the book The same year, and it's what got us into biochar was the big sort of lightbulb moment. And then in 2018, I think October it was the inner governmental Panel on Climate Change wrote its report about negative emissions technologies. And in my head, I put those two together and have really drank the biochar Kool Aid and never going back. This is a lifelong venture now. We got together a few years ago, a fellow graduate of the California ag leadership program, we're both graduates of that program got us together, Steve's headwinds where he knew everything there was to know about using biochar in agricultural setting. And I had the, you know, production technology side of it pretty well wrapped up his headwinds were my tail winds and vice versa, we got together and as I said earlier, it's a marriage made in heaven. We've had a really wonderful partnership over the last almost couple of years, we have a pilot plant up and running at Regen Monterey, which is Monterey County's Waste Management District, with this incredible staff there. And our partner in that project is Keith Day, who runs the compost operation, the Keith day company that runs the compost operation at region Monterey, and we've had a pilot plant up and running since early this summer. And yeah, things are going really well.

Craig Macmillan 3:04

So question for you, Jessica. How did you get involved with the Sitos Group?

Jessica Bronner 3:08

That is a lovely question. So Steve reached out one day and was like, Hey, I have a job opportunity for you. And he connected with mayo, and the rest was history. And I always joke that I never thought I'd be excited about dirt, except now I'm excited about chocolate ish, kind of st compound. But yeah, that's how I got into it. And I'm never looking back. I can tell you that for sure.

Craig Macmillan 3:32

And so I've got another question for you. Jessica because I think you might have a really great answer to this. We have other episodes on this topic, but just very briefly, what exactly is biochar and what are some of the uses for it?

Jessica Bronner 3:44

So biochar, what Mayo calls is a wonder drug. And I could not agree more. I really porous material, and it's actually a type of charcoal with a low ash content. So it's a higher carbon content. What sets it apart from charcoal is its porosity. So it's has a lot of pores inside of it. We call it the coral reef for the soil. So all of those pores and little rooms are kind of housing for the micro organisms, or the soil biota that we incorporate into it.

Craig Macmillan 4:16

Mayo, you had mentioned how you kind of got connected to it. What are some of the uses for biochar in agriculture?

Mayo Ryan 4:22

We're farmers at heart and I mean, you all of us are lifelong agriculturalists. So we really start the conversation about biochar from an agricultural perspective. It is a wonderful soil amendment and because of its porosity, as Jessica said, and the idea that it is this coral reef for the soil, all of the complex fungi and bacteria and the myriad other micro organisms that help us with our digestion and our immunity and our disease resistant, live in, in biochar, it's like long term housing for all of those organisms. And I mean, in a single handful of soil there are more micro organisms, microbial bodies and our human beings on the planet and and biochar is their long term housing. You know, it's a condo for them. And so they take up residence, and it just fuels all this great activity that all those organisms have when they interact with the plant this complex communication between microbial activity and the plant itself. And so it leads to increased fertility, plant health, disease resistance, pest resistance, a really good amount of moisture retention, so drought mitigation, you know, and you just go down a list like a, like Jessica said, I think it's a wonder drug because it has these almost unbelievable amount of CO benefits. It does so many good things. That's just on the on the agricultural side, what we think about at Sitos are these co equal benefits of soil health and carbon sequestration. It's a really effective shovel ready and efficient tool. First, full carbon seed, atmospheric carbon removal,

Craig Macmillan 5:50

You talked about carbon. So obviously, this is made from materials that are high in carbon, Jessica, what kinds of materials go into this process that we're going to talk about in a second, what kinds of materials go into making biochar?

Jessica Bronner 6:02

Well, ultimately, you can pyrolyze is the secret word that we're going to get into in a little bit, but you can pyrolyze any organic matter Sitos Group specifically, we are currently working with municipal wood waste. We tried working with some compost leftovers previously, and they were a little high in water content for us to make biochar in the moment. So now we're just using some wood residue from other wood materials that are lower in the water content, but you can pyralyze organic, any type of organic waste, if that's biosolids, if that's corn husks, if that's vineyard waste, or almond waste, we're looking to get into almond waste almond hole and shell later on down the road hopefully sooner than later. But anything organic ultimately, if it's going back into the agricultural application,

Craig Macmillan 6:51

So Mayo, there's a particular process we've called pyrolysis that's necessary to make this happen so that you don't end up with ash or charcoal is it's a different kind of a combustion Mayo, Can you talk a little bit more about pyrolysis and then we'll talk about how you actually do it.

Mayo Ryan 7:04

Our goal is to ultimately make various qualities of biochar for specific soil types. And so we want a machine that's adjustable, which is why we pick slow pyrolysis there are other means of making biochar one's called gasification. And that's what we have largely in California. These are these are really energy production facilities where energy is about 80% of the product and biochar is a byproduct. Fast pyrolysis is another way to do it. Slow pyrolysis is a little bit different. There aren't many manufacturers that equipment around the world, but I think we found a great one and that machines very adjustable. So we can through different throughput times different temperature rates, we can make biochar 's that have higher pH level than others or a higher cation Exchange capacity and ultimately hope to customize biochar for soil types but you know, it's a new process. This is our machine at Regen Monterey the pilot plant is the first of its kind in the country. We've spent a good long while investigating manufactures years actually at this and, and are really pleased with this. With this process. The machine was invented or designed by two professors and biochar, Johanna Sleeman at Cornell and Stephen Joseph at the University of New South Wales, to pretty eminent people in our world. And so far, we're really pleased with the design and hope to perfect it over the years. And, you know, get the most out of it that we can it's economic, it's fairly easy to operate. As Jessica said, it's feedstock agnostic, we can use a lot of different feedstocks, and it's transportable, we can put one in a 40 foot trailer and, and you know, it's not like we can hook it up to the back of a car and drive it around. But it is somewhat transportable.

We've had other guests on the podcast and I've had tailgates where we have had big piles of vines that we lit from the top and then hose down material at the end. I've talked to people about digging pits and burning stuff covered in the ground. We've seen some smaller kinds of units, kind of like a tank I've seen people doing and kind of an open trench. The secret to pyrolysis is it's the low edition of oxygen. Is that right?

That's exactly right. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 9:08

So you're talking about a machine. So what is this machines, magical machine? What is how does it work? How do you get stuff into it? How does it burn? How do you get stuff out of it? How much can you do at a time? Does it take 10 people to operate it? I've just gotten super curious about this, because this is the first time I've really heard about this kind of technology.

Mayo Ryan 9:27

You make it sounds so mysterious, but it's really not all the processes you described, Craig are what stands out about them is that they're batch processes. We wanted something that was continuous. There's such an abundance of agricultural byproducts, waste and biosolids, and forest waste in California that we wanted something that we could start this machine or put two or three of them side by side and it was a continuous process. So the feedstock enters the machine in a in a trough at the bottom of the machine at a temperature say 150 degrees centigrade, the moisture leaves so we dry the feedstock going in and In it say 350 to 500 degrees centigrade, all of the non carbon materials. The volatiles, if you will in that feedstock, whether it's almond shell or biosolids, or wood waste go away from the feedstock. And what we create is this bubble of sin gas or production gases. And at those temperatures, those sin gases combust. That bubble of of flame, if you will, lives above the feedstock. And that heat is what pyralyzes that say 750 degrees centigrade, paralyzes the feedstock. And what paralyzation means is it literally means change by fire. And so that feedstock goes from whatever it was with whatever quantities of lignin, cellulose hemicellulose into almost a pure carbon, it's completely chemically transformed. And what you end up with is just because it earlier is this very porous material. One of the quality standards for biochar is the International biochar initiative, surface area standard, which is 500 meters per gram. It was hard to get my head around this, but that's the surface area of a football field in the size of a pencil eraser. And that just speaks to how porous and fragile it is. And if you were to take an electron microscope and look at one of the walls of those pores, it would look exactly like the original start. It's very fractal down to different degrees of magnification. And at that high carbon content level microbes break their teeth on it, you know, it's it's something that lasts in the soil for hundreds, if not 1000s of years, as farmers we are using the biochar, principally for soil health and Plant Health take that responsibility for using that biochar in an agricultural setting, you know, very seriously. And so we are, you know, we really think that that leads to a more durable and permanent carbon removal, but it's just as I said earlier, it's a wonderful, incredible wonder drug. It does so many great things.

Craig Macmillan 11:48

To continue, mayo what happens to the stuff that's not the carbon you said it volatilizes off, but what's its eventual fate in the environment?

Mayo Ryan 11:50

We essentially combust it and so the machine acts as its own thermal oxidizer, so everything that's not carbon gets lifted above the feedstock. The feedstock never actually catches fire all the sin gas and production cloud gases do above the feedstock and they're consumed right then and there. And so theoretically, you know, what comes out of the stack is very little heat, principally, we generate a ton of byproduct heat, but very little exhaust gases, little NOx little Sox, well under what you know, are the standards here. Everything that's as I said, Not carbon gets combusted within the chamber

Craig Macmillan 12:34

And gets broken down into less problematic. Compact.

Mayo Ryan 12:37

Exactly, yes,

Craig Macmillan 12:38

Question for you just the coolant, the biochar coolant. I'm hearing a lot about biochar. Obviously, there's a lot of people mixing up the Kool Aid. I'm guessing that your job is probably to sell the Kool Aid.

Jessica Bronner 12:49

My job is actually to educate people on what the Kool Aid is. Once they know it kind of sells itself going from there on. It's definitely breaking down the complex understanding of slow pyrolysis and biochar so if someone could understand it, who's new to the ag industry or carbon removal industry or any of that.

Craig Macmillan 13:13

So again with you, Jessica, so this material is produced, you folks are selling it to other folks selling it to different people, outlets, companies, municipalities.

Jessica Bronner 13:23

That is the future plan for now we have an offtake agreement set for this first pilot plant with Monterey Pacific. So actually, all the biochar we'll be producing in the years going forward will be going directly into the vineyards that MPI manages, which is terrific yay for Sitos, Group biochar. And then moving forward it will be available to sell to outside markets.

Craig Macmillan 13:46

What do you think those markets might be?

Mayo Ryan 13:47

I can go with that. You know, we're we're we're lucky in that biochar and wine grape vineyards is an established fact more or less. We can all stipulate the benefits of biochar in wine grapes largely due to Dr. Doug Beck and Steve's work over the last eight to 10 years. We're doubling down in the wine grape industry is is kind of a short term means of proving biochar is affecting agriculture. Next, we'll spend time educating almond and pistachio growers in the San Joaquin Valley about those same benefits. I used to work as pistachio grower relations guy for a large pistachio company. And you know, I'm convinced pistachios and biochar go hand in hand. But there are so many other uses. We can sequester carbon and concrete, you know line production for the concrete businesses one of the largest carbon emitters in the world. If we can get biochar and concrete we can significantly reduce by 20%. Perhaps the amount of lime going into concrete, we can create graphenes and graphite for use and batteries. The endless list of uses of biochar is really endless. We were starting in agriculture but there are a lot of opportunities for us as we build the business.

Jessica, are you you said you're doing the education and the outreach. You're teaching people what it is what kinds of methods tools, avenues are you using to communicate all this stuff?

Jessica Bronner 14:59

So far we've been very successful on LinkedIn. That's a great avenue for people to find out what we're doing where Mayo is every week speaking to different at different arrangements and educating people that way. With that we do a lot of public outreach. So we spoke at the Monterey Rotary Club and then the Cannery Row Rotary Club. So we had some good educational moments, we'll be having a biochar tailgate with a vineyard team coming up next beginning of next year. And then our website has a lot of information about biochar. We'll write blogs, if people have questions, they can submit questions on our website. We really want to be open book to the public and to people who are interested because educating oneself is kind of the most powerful tool that you have i We really value that and we want to create avenues for people to learn from their own standards. And then a website that we like to go to for information for the public to know about, they obviously probably already do if they know about biochar is the US biochar initiative USBI. They have a terrific website with a lot of knowledge and materials on biochar and application and agriculture and different settings.

Craig Macmillan 16:12

And just as a as a timestamp, this has been recorded in November of 2023. And so this Tailgate you mentioned, would be in 2024. For Mayo to you what what is the future look like? The big picture future do you think is going to be for this industry? This is a sounds like it's an industry are potentially a fledgling industry, maybe. But where do you see this going? You've talked about almond orchards and you've talked about municipal waste. What's the potential here on a big, big picture? You

Mayo Ryan 16:42

know, agriculture is facing a huge set of problems, which makes it just more and more difficult to meet this global demand for a secure and healthy food supply. And those problems are, you know, soil degradation and desertification, drought or moisture loss. You know, carbon emissions from agriculture is huge. We've got to fix that loss of biodiversity. And so, we believe that biochar is a way to transition conventional traditional ag into a regenerative ag set of practices, which would include things like cover cropping and minimum or no till on but but essentially at the highest level conversion from a chemical based farming regime to biological based farming regime and, and we want to facilitate that our vision of sounds embarrassing a bit, Craig, but you know, Steven, Jessica, and Alan and our wonderful operators who Swain said, Well, I'll want to sequester a million tonnes of carbon be a mega ton supplier of carbon removal by the end of 2030. It sounds crazy. When I say it, I get a bit embarrassed. But our friends in the carbon world are telling them that's not enough, we need to have much more larger ambitions, you know, we all need to be sequestering a billion tons by 2030. And we're you know, we're just a very small part of that. But that's our goal. That's what we want to have happen. That's what we're going to pursue over the next seven years is to take these plants that we have the goal of the pilot planet region, Monterey is to perfect a three machine design that will templatized and deploy throughout the Salinas, Sacramento and San Joaquin valleys, I think in my lifetime anyway, you know, I don't have to look much beyond those regions for opportunities to make biochar and sequester in soil. But that's the plan and to you know, to do our best to facilitate regenerative ag and, and those regenerative site supply chains and remove as much carbon from the atmosphere as we possibly can.

Craig Macmillan 18:24

Jessica what do you have to add to that? What? What do you see? What's your vision?

Jessica Bronner 18:28

My vision for biochar is really lead the regeneration of the earth to the soil. I mean, I recently read, or am reading the book by Paul Hawkins called regeneration and mayo knows it very well. And I encourage everyone else to go and read it if they have not. But it ultimately talks about how are we supposed to thrive on a planet that's degenerating? And what can we do to regenerate that so we can continue to sustain life? Well, not just since sustain life, but to thrive, have life thrive on this planet? So future going forward would for biochar to Excel that regeneration of the earth of agriculture of supply chains of humanity? That would be that's my big end. I'll be I'll go through this.

Craig Macmillan 19:14

That's a good goal. Let's continue with you, Jessica. We're getting close to the end here. What is one thing that you would recommend to listeners or that you'd like them to take away regarding this topic?

Jessica Bronner 19:26

I mentioned it earlier, but really is just to educate themselves on biochar and sustainability and regeneration, because there's only so much you can do from here. So he or she say, but when you actually double down and find out what it is that you're passionate about, or maybe you're not passionate about for your individual self, I think that's really powerful. Like I said before, I had never knew that I'd be excited about charcoal or about agriculture, but here I am, like, never, never going back and I really attribute that passion to education. personal education me diving in and figuring that out so that's that's my biggest encouragement for people just curious about it is to read about it dive in jump in headfirst come down a rabbit hole and drink the Kool Aid.

Craig Macmillan 20:14

How about you Mayo?

Mayo Ryan 20:16

Know what I'm gonna shamelessly crib what Jessica stains it's get involved. I mean, if you're on our website and you find that that tab and that button all over, we have a little mantra internal saying it Sitos. It's not either or it's also and we have a very limited competitive view, we don't think there are such things in, in the biochar or carbon removal world as competitors, we need lots of Sitos' we need lots of other companies in this business as many as can can get involved. And that's it. You know, Friday, we hit a record. It's the first time we were over two degrees of pre industrial temperature, a third of this year was over 1.5 degrees, which was the Paris Climate Accord. It's here it's happening. And so my suggestion and my hope is that is that people just get involved educate, as Jessica said, and, and join us in this effort to save ourselves.

Craig Macmillan 21:03

Jessica, I am going to ocme back to you, where can people find out more about you and your colleagues and the Sitos group in general?

Jessica Bronner 21:11

Our website and click the Get Involved button and you send an email directly to me and I will respond to you ASAP. You can also find us like I said on LinkedIn, we have our social media platforms on Facebook and Instagram. We're thinking about launching a YouTube channel. You can go check us out right now and find some terrific vineyard application videos of biochar have been applied to some of the McIntyre vineyards, soils. But I would say email if you want to get direct contact with us. It's our first names with our last initial at Sitos.earth it is not.com We got fancy and put a dot Earth on there. So yeah, send us an email reach out. We're happy to chat set up a call and have a conversation. Well,

Craig Macmillan 21:53

our guest today has been Mayo Ryan. He is CEO and co founder of the Sitos group and Jessica Bronner, who is the peer Marketing Communications Manager for Sitos want to thank you both for being here.

Mayo Ryan 22:05

Delighted, Craig, thank you for having us.

Jessica Bronner 22:07

It was a pleasure for sure.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Regeneration: Ending the Climate Crisis in One Generation

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There are a lot of buzzwords today surrounding eco-friendly production:

Regenerative
Sustainable
Climate smart
Carbon footprint
Social equity

Did you know that the sustainable winegrowing community touches all of these points?

Regenerative. From the block to the bottle, making wine is a science. Growers and vintners alike must understand and work with nature to make a quality product, and sustain their business for years to come.

That’s why sustainable winegrowers use practices that protect and regenerate natural resources:

Enhance soil health and biodiversity by planting cover crops and using compost and biochar.
Support native wildlife species by preserving a portion of the property as non-cropped land.
Reduce pesticide use by attracting birds of prey and beneficial insects.
Climate Smart. From the fuel and batteries that run vineyard equipment, to the electric pumps and motors at work in the winery, to the electricity that power the buildings, it takes energy to make a bottle of wine!

Reducing reliance on nonrenewable energy helps to combat climate change. Sustainable winegrowers and winemakers do this by:

Using equipment that covers multiple rows to reduce tractor passes.
Improving insulation of buildings and winery tanks to regulate temperature and reduce energy demand.
Utilizing natural light, energy-efficient bulbs, and motion-detecting lighting in buildings to reduce electricity demand.
Social Equity. Sustainable wine businesses know that people are our most valuable resource. It’s common practice for them to:
Provide competitive pay and medical insurance.
Have a communication plan to reach neighbors and the community at large.
Give back to their communities through charitable donations, volunteer work, and hosting educational events.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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Ecosystem Science combines biology, chemistry, and physics to model and predict responses like wine grape yield forecasting, water management, and disease vector mapping. Joshua Fisher, Associate Professor of Environmental Science & Policy at Schmid College of Science and Technology, Chapman University and science lead at Hydrosat explains how high-resolution data from space helps farmers plan for climate change. His research uses satellites to help growers understand how change their practices to succeed in their current location and predict future winegrowing regions around the world.

Resources: * 199: NASA Satellites Detect Grapevine Diseases from Space * 191: CropManage: Improving the Precision of Water and Fertilizer Inputs * Hydrosat * Joshua Fisher * Joshua Fisher on LinkedIn * Joshua Fisher on Twitter * Martha Anderson, Research Physical Scientist, USDA-ARS * NASA Acres - applying satellite data solutions to the most pressing challenges facing U.S. agriculture * NASA Earth Observatory * NASA JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And our guest today is Dr. Joshua Fisher. He is Associate Professor of Environmental Science and Policy at Chapman University, and also science lead with Hydrosat. And today, we're gonna be talking about ecosystem research that he's been doing in some modeling ideas. Thanks for being here, Joshua.

Joshua Fisher 0:16

Thanks for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:17

Your area is broadly defined, I understand as Ecosystem Science, that'd be an accurate description of your professional life.

Joshua Fisher 0:25

Sure, yep.

Craig Macmillan 0:26

Before we get started, what exactly is Ecosystem Science?

Joshua Fisher 0:29

it's kind of a combination of many sciences. And it's a combination of biology, we got to understand plants, animals, in, you know, down to bacteria and fungi. It's a combination of chemistry, you know, we need to understand how different nutrients and water and carbon interact and transform and it's combination of physics in terms of how energy flows through the system and in heat, and how to model and predict responses of the biology and the chemistry through the physics. So I kind of got into Ecosystem Science or environmental science more broadly, because I was indecisive as a student and couldn't pick a science, like all the sciences, and

Craig Macmillan 1:10

I feel your pain.

Joshua Fisher 1:11

And I didn't want to just pick one. So I was looking around for a major that combine the sciences and environmental science was a good one and got me a chance to get outdoors.

Craig Macmillan 1:20

That's an interesting way to get into what are the applied aspects of this area? Like what are the things things are that you're interested in, in terms of like the applications, but what do you do, and then we'll talk about what you do.

Joshua Fisher 1:32

The applications are really interesting. And it's kind of a career trajectory to, I think, as a student, and as an early career scientist, it was really about doing science, with the applications kind of out there more broadly, for context, but not actually doing anything about anything other than coming up with the best science possible, coming up with the best models, launching satellites, developing new datasets and understanding the way the world works. But actually feeding back to society was something that I've really ramped up throughout my career. And I've seen that among my peers as well, you know, especially in terms of the science trajectory and science reward system, science rewards you for publications for getting grants, and for doing a bit of ivory tower research, it doesn't really reward you, promote you and sustain you for doing applied sciences. And that tends to be a luxury that one gets one when gets into mid career, which is where I'm at now. And it's a great aspect. It's a great privilege to be able to feed back to society, to help farmers, water managers, policy makers, communities, people of color, indigenous tribes, and so on. It's a different type of award. Now it's, it's a reward, that's a personal reward. Something that I feel, you know, really happy about satisfied when I go to sleep at night. And I, you know, have to do my part to change the system for the early career scientist of today, to be rewarded for those applications as well. But in terms of my Applied Science, nowadays, I use my technology that I've launched a space and I'm continuing to launch the space, especially on thermal imaging, to monitor plant stress and water stress, heat stress, and plants using that to help inform irrigation and agricultural crop management, forest management, wildfire, prediction response, even down to urban heat and public health. I have got work with environmental justice, and communities of color and using the data that I've launched to help to help sustain public health as well as environmental science and agriculture and food production and food security. So lots of great applications out there. I'm even working with volcanologist. Our technology to help predict volcanic eruption.

Craig Macmillan 3:43

Oh, wow.

Joshua Fisher 3:44

Incredible array, you know, there's geology as well, mineral exploration. So a lot of applications, aquaculture, you know, helping improve shellfish and diversity as well. So when it comes to what I've gotten myself into, or gotten yourself into Dr. Fisher, over the years a bit of that. And it just happens to be that what I do has a lot of the connections, it isn't very limited. And what I what I've been doing for the past decade has a lot on temperature and heat. And so anywhere there's a signal of heat or temperature, whether it's in crops, whether it's in urban settings, whether it's in volcanoes, whether it's in wildfire that temperature permeates everywhere. And my data have and my science have the ability to help not only the science, but also the applications across nearly in the entire earth system.

Craig Macmillan 4:35

All right now, what are you talking about heat you're looking at this, we're talking about what you do so like on any given day, and I know everybody has these crazy lives where we do one thing on Tuesday and something completely different on Wednesday, but you are scientists, scientists work with data. Your data is coming from space. How did you get into that? I know you've worked on a couple of other or a couple of projects both now When in the past with information data collected from sapce, and I want to know more about that, what kind of data? How's it collected? How's it work? Exactly, yeah, how does somebody get into terrestrial data scientist?

Joshua Fisher 5:14

How does someone go from having one's head in the dirt to having one's head in space?

Craig Macmillan 5:21

And then then back in the dirt sounds like.

Unknown Speaker 5:24

I'm back in the dirt again. Back to my college days, environmental science, started doing undergraduate research at Berkeley, where I was at, mostly because as an undergrad, I was like, Why? Why did I go to Berkeley, you know, it's just a number in a class. It's huge, not the best teaching, the reputation of Berkeley is really for the research. So I said, Well, if I'm going to be here, I better get involved in research. And I got involved in research as an undergrad, and started getting into the Environmental Modeling. And I liked it so much that I continued on at Berkeley for my PhD, and my PhD, and continued Environmental Modeling side. But I was like, well, let's add a new tool to my toolkit. And let's start playing with satellites. Because really, they were just cool toys in the sky, I had really no other kind of ambition, other than to learn how to pick up a new tool and play with it.

Craig Macmillan 6:12

I've seen some really pretty pictures, if you go to the NASA Earth Observatory page, and with all their links and stuff there. It's like a Christmas tree with presents under it. It's just all these pretty colors and all these amazing things. So I can see how you could get drawn into it.

Joshua Fisher 6:27

Yeah, I mean, when you get into all the beautiful imagery, not only in the visible spectrum, but across the medic spectrum, you start to wonder if you are looking at science or art, that distinction that polarization between art and science really starts to blur. And you forget, what are you doing? Are you doing art? Are you doing science? And really, you're doing both. And it's all together. And I've been doing a lot of art, science and synergies over the year as well, which I'm happy to talk to you after I answer your first question, which is how I got into it. So playing with cool satellites, cool toys in the sky, interested in water, because I grew up in California and Alaska, kind of two, polar opposites of environmental extremes. And you know, when I was a kid, we were putting low flow showerheads, you know, in my showers in Los Angeles, where I grew up with my mother. And then my parents split when I was little, my dad lived in Alaska. And when I went to visit my dad, Alaska, we were putting on high flow showerheads, as a kid just kind of flying back and forth. It made me wonder how the world worked. And so growing up in California, especially under droughts and water shortages, as I got into college, I got involved in interested in being able to predict water and how much water we need. We had been able to measure rainfall and snow and groundwater, but not the evaporation components so much. And so that was where the models had to come into play. Because we couldn't measure it. We had a model that we had predicted based on other things. So when I started playing with satellites, my PhD, I was started wondering, I wonder if we could get at evapotranspiration from satellite remote sensing. And so that became the focus of my PhD. And sure enough, I was able to do it at the end of a nice long doctorate. So then right around that time, climate change really blew up. And I was in a unique place where I was observing the earth, using cutting edge technology and models and looking at cycles that transcended the whole earth. And so I kind of stepped right into that, for a fact finished my PhD, decided to if I wanted to be a global climate scientist, I needed to work globally. I had been in the Bay Area for almost 10 years in LA and so on. So I left the US and I went to England to Oxford University. And I thought I would leave the satellite and evapotranspiration stuff behind me. I started working on the climate model. There, I started getting into nitrogen, and the nitrogen cycle. And really my number one goal of moving to England was to pick up a British accent so clearly that although I can't say...

Craig Macmillan 8:56

You went to Oxford, you went to Oxford to figure that out. You just couldn't move to the west end and a little apartment for a couple years. That wasn't going to do it clearly.

Joshua Fisher 9:03

But partially because we got a big project in the Amazon as well and Andes. So I moved into the Amazon and Andes and conducted a big nutrient fertilization experiment up and down the Andes along with a larger team studying ecological dynamics of the rainforest and cloud forest there. So my Spanish got a lot better although it's very much field Spanish, you know, I can converse very fluently when it comes to roots and leaves and soils, but put me in a fine dining restaurant. And I'm like, what is all this cutlery? We didn't have this on Amazon. Eventually made my way out of Amazon Andes back to Oxford and was teaching remote sensing and GIS geographic information systems to the students there. We had a collaborator at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab who was visiting with us and he had tried to recruit me to JPL back in California. And I said, Ah, you know, I just converted my postdoc to a faculty position at Oxford. we're pretty happy here. But then my partner who's awesome from Los Angeles, got a job at Occidental College in Los Angeles. And so she got the job. And so I was like, okay, so I called up my friend at JPL. She has that position still available. And he said, Yeah, you should apply. And so I did. And so I ended up taking a job as a NASA scientist at JPL. And I was there for about 12 years before I left, and joined Chapman University and Hydrosat. Hydrosat was actually a spinoff from JPL. Some JPL scientists, engineers spun off some technology that we'd actually launched to Mars, and decided that we could actually use it for Earth Science and applications and accelerate that transition to society a lot faster. If we did it from a commercial sphere, than from a governmental, you know, wait for contracts and proposals, sphere prime, the science lead for Hydrosat. And even though it's in the commercial realm, I represent the science community and my push to make sure the data are available for free to the science community. And so that's one of my big pushes. It's all about advancing the earth as a whole. And Hydrosat really supports that. And our employees are driven by that mission as well. So that's exciting. So yeah, that's how I got involved in remote sensing and satellites. And it keeps me here today, because that's just what I've gotten good at, for my time at JPL.

Craig Macmillan 11:19

So what kinds of things is hydroset do?

Joshua Fisher 11:22

So we are launching as of, you know, less than a year just in June of 24, a constellation of satellites. And then they measure thermal infrared, so temperature, have very high spatial resolutions. And because it's a constellation, we can cover the earth really rapidly and frequently. So we can get measurements every day, what we call field scales down to 50 meters, for the thermal and in the visible and near infrared down to 20 meters. So really high resolution really frequent and and that's what we need, especially for growers agriculturalists. But even for other applications, like urban heat waves, volcanic eruptions, you know, a lot of things happen at very fine scales, wildfires, and you need to be able to capture it frequently, you can't just wait. And so there's always been this traditional trade off between high spatial resolution and high temporal resolution, you can have one or the other, but not both. It's because you either have your satellite close to the Earth where you can see close detail, but it takes forever to wrap around the earth in full coverage, or you can be further away and cover the earth more frequently. But then your pixel size is not as sharp. The problem with the thermal infrared imaging is that it's always been really expensive. Because it's a temperature sensor. It requires cooling, cryo, cooling, which takes a lot of energy and takes a lot of mass and volume. And on the engineering side, you start to add those up. And it becomes very expensive, from our public public satellites. Landsat has been our workhorse over the past couple of decades. And it's like a billion dollars to watch Landsat so you cannot have a lot. And that's a 16 day repeat. We advanced from Landsat with eco stress out of JPL I was the science lead for eco stress. We put it on the International Space Station. So we could use that energy system and power in crowd cooling. Interesting overpass cadence. So we didn't have to pay for a lot of the engineering. But you know, the the space station, of course, is very expensive.

Craig Macmillan 13:10

What is the overpass cadence on the International Space Station? I've always wondered that. If you're up there, and you're going around how often do you see your house?

Joshua Fisher 13:17

Yeah. And the answer is funky.

Craig Macmillan 13:21

Scientists love that Josh. Yeah, that's a great scientific, that's great for science.

Joshua Fisher 13:27

That's the jargon. That's the technical term. It is it's really funky. It's really weird. It doesn't go over the poles. For one, it hits about 50 to 15 degrees north and south. So it kind of like starts to get up there near Alaska. But it like it turns around, because what we call precesses kind of turns around, and so has this funky orbit. So if you're living in Los Angeles, or Chicago, or New York, a traditional satellite, like Landsat or MODIS, will pass over at the same time, every day for Motus 1030 or 130, for Landsat every 16 days at about 1030. So it's very consistent. And that's good for scientists, as you said, like scientist like that kind of consistent data, they can see if the planets heating up because at 1030, every time things are getting hotter, or whatever, the space station passes over at different times every time it takes your schedule and rips it up and says, you know, I'm doing my own thing. And so today, it'll be 11am. The next time it'll be 2pm. You know, next time it'll be 9am. It's not like every day or every three days. It's every like, sometimes it can be every day. And then like it just says like sia and then it comes back a week later. So it's very inconsistent. And that's why remote sensing scientists, NASA scientists had historically shied away from using the space station as a platform to observe the earth. I came along and said, You know what, this interesting high resolution spatial resolution because it's pretty close to the surface. You can actually see it from your house, passing over at night in this different times of overpass passes actually really good from a plant centric standpoint, plants, they use water throughout the day. But if you don't have enough water, especially in the afternoon, when it's hot and dry, plants will close this stomata, they'll shut down, and maybe reopen them a little bit in the evening to get a little bit more photosynthesis. And before, you know, there's no more sunlight from a 1030, consistent overpassed, you would never see that even from 130, you might not always see that getting that diurnal sampling was a unique trait that I thought would be valuable for Plant Science Ecosystem Science in agriculture. We propose that as part of the Eco stress mission proposal, the review panel at NASA headquarters, Congress love that we had been spending so much money as a nation on the space station. And we hadn't really been using those unique characteristics for Earth observation until we came along. And I think we were like the second Earth mission on the space station. And really the first one to ever use it to observe the earth with its unique characteristics. After we did that a whole bunch of other missions came up afterwards. We were trailblazers.

Craig Macmillan 15:59

That's cool. There's implications in terms of and you know, we're we're focused on plants and one plant in particular, the grapevine the implications for this are that we can see quite a bit of detail, I mean, 50 meters by 50 meters is actually surprisingly tight pixel, small pixel. But we also can see regional, and learn in larger scale patterns that we wouldn't find otherwise, where let's say grow A has great information about what's happening in terms of ET rates on their property, or plant water stress measured with leaf water potential or something like that. Stem water potential, but I'm guessing the field is probably picking up on some some patterns that are beyond what we might have otherwise known about, even if we had really, really good high quality high definition data just at the ground level, but limited parcel size, for instance.

Joshua Fisher 16:47

Yeah, absolutely. Thing is that hydrostat really combines a lot of great characteristics that you might get one from any, any any other individual instrument. So from again, Landsat, you've got that great spatial resolution, but you missed that frequency, promote us, you have the frequency, you miss the spatial resolution from drones, you get that great spatial resolution, but you don't get that large regional coverage, or even frequency from towers, similar, so from aircraft. So with Hydrosat, we're able to pick that a lot, which means that we can do a lot with I think we don't replace drone operations or towers, because those present and provide really useful information. But what we do provide is that just very consistent objective and large scale coverage at the field scale. So if you're a grower, and you got fields, you can run a drone or a couple of times, but you're really not going to see your field, you can get your Lance and your motors, but you're not gonna get that frequency or that resolution tight. So Hydrosat is really beneficial for you in terms of your audience for growers that have a lot of area, and a lot of interesting dynamics that you know, they need to be able to monitor and evapotranspiration, the soil moisture, the temperature, we can get that we also create a lot of products from our data. We just acquired a company called IrriWatch, which was started by my colleague Wim Bastiaanssen, who's a who's a giant and evapotranspiration, and so with me and Wim teaming up, we've got just where you know, the the two headed dragon of evapotranspiration are really pushing technology and solutions into agriculture, viticulture and all the other applications. So Wim and IrriWatch has done is they've reached out to hundreds hundreds of growers all over the world 60 countries and figuring out what are you what are your decisions? What are your What are your questions? What are your operational needs? And have answered pretty much all of them it can be from transpiration to soil moisture to soil deficit to how long do I need to turn on my hose? How long do I need to turn on my valve for? Where am I seeing water deficits? Where am I seeing water leaks? Can I tell us something about my soil health can I forecast crop yield, you know, in growing in viticulture, of course, we're not always trying to maximize the soil moisture to the field capacity. We're sometimes doing deficit irrigation. You even need more precision on that and more frequency. And so we work a lot with the US Department of Agriculture. I've got colleagues at USDA, Martha Anderson, they'll acoustics and tell him they've been doing a lot of viticulture applications. And so they're very excited about Hydrosat and we've been working with them on our early adopter product and hoping to have the USDA be a direct feed from Hydrosat and as much as all our individual growers and collective so we're definitely excited to support agriculture, viticulture, and anyone who can use the data. We want to make sure everyone has the best crop yield and best production and withstands these increasing heatwaves droughts and climate change that is facing everyone.

Craig Macmillan 19:56

So what kind of products does hydroset producing report it advise advising, like, what? What does it look like?

Joshua Fisher 20:03

Yeah, it's a huge list. I mean, so we actually have, since we acquired IrriWatch, we're trying to distill it because I think, with IrriWatch, we inherited about, like 50 different products. So different. So you got this web portal, this API, you can go in on your phone, or on your laptop, or your tablet, or whatever, and load up your field. And you can get your reports, your maps, your tables, your graphs across your different variables, your your irrigation recommendations, we provide irrigation recommendations, things before 10 In the morning, every day, local time. So people know what to do. But you know, then that's like growers, then there's more like water managers who are trying to manage water for a region, we've got policymakers, we've got consultants, so it's we have got a lot of different users, we've got a government. So we've got a lot of different users with different needs. And we have applications for all these different users. We're focused on agriculture, although we have a lot of interest and buy in from, again, like I said, wildfire communities, and forestry and public health and so on. So we're supporting a lot of those communities as well with our data. But we have a lot more analytics information and services for the Agricultural Committee at this at this time.

Craig Macmillan 21:17

I wanted to transition into that area of analytics. And related, you also are interested in modeling. I understand. To me, that's the Holy Grail, and also the Demon. of anyone who works around data. When I collect data, I've got maybe a great looking backward looking model. Fantastic. I tell you what has happened. Okay, great. Tell me what's going to happen. Josh, that's a little harder. And you are you are interested in this and work with this and which supercomputing Is that correct?

Joshua Fisher 21:48

That's right. That's right. Yeah, I do a lot of our system modeling. And it started with evapotranspiration, right again, because we couldn't measure it. So I had to predict it. And we had a lot of different models starting from him in Monte Thornthwaite. And recently, Taylor. And then moving forward, about the time I was in school, the global community started developing Eddy covariance towers, flux towers. And so we had some of the first ones at Berkeley that were measuring evapotranspiration, you know, frequently and across, you know, an ecosystem. So, I was like, well, let's test the models there. So I was, you know, one of the first scientists to test these different evapotranspiration models, and we got it like a dozen or so tested at the number of reflex sights, and I installed sap flow sensors and measured a bunch of things about water to be able to predict the models, or predict, predict evapotranspiration. That got me into understanding the process really well in the mathematics and the predictive capabilities. And then when I moved into the satellite remote sensing realm, we couldn't measure evapotranspiration directly as a gas flux. But you know, we were measuring the temperature signal, which is directly related, we can measure soil moisture, we can measure meteorology, we can measure vegetation, phonology. And so these components start to go together to get out of Apple transpiration. Actually, we can measure evapotranspiration using kind of atmospheric layers. It's very coarse resolution. It's not particularly useful for our land applications, but useful for weather and things like that. That modeling continued into using satellite data as the inputs to those models. And then like I said, I thought I would leave evapotranspiration remote sensing behind me as I moved to England and worked on the climate model. So I got into earth system modeling, and being able to predict, you know, essentially climate change, and what's happening to the fate of the whole planet, not just this year, next year, but 20 years from now, 50 years from now, and at the end of the century, as climate change is really ramping up and we're looking at tipping points in their system. When do plants really start running out of water? When do they run out of nutrients? When are the temperature extremes so much that plants can't survive? And this was actually just a paper that we published last month in nature made the cover of nature, and we use eco stress to detect temperature limits that we're seeing in tropical rainforests right now that we're just seeing starting to exceed the critical temperature in which photosynthesis shuts down. So that got a lot of widespread news coverage. Now we can put this back into their system models and say, are their system models doing this correctly? Some of my volcanology work is actually linked to earth system models, because one of the big uncertainties and unknowns and the fate of the planet is what are the rainforests going to do with increasing co2 And normally, we would set up experiments and pump co2 on to ecosystems and see what's happened. But it's hard to do that and rainforests working with my volcanologist colleagues, we've discovered that volcanoes leak co2 out of their like flanks into the low lying forests. And there's a chain of volcanoes in Costa Rica that are doing this in the rainforests. So we're going in again, back into the jungle, this time, the jungles of the volcanoes, flying drones to sniff out those co2 leaks, flying Lidar and thermal hyperspectral to see what the rainforest responses are. So that all ecology that remote sensing ties back to their system modeling predictive capabilities.

Craig Macmillan 25:05

One of the things I think is fascinating is here we have an ecosystem where we can collect data, we can the ground truth, that data or collect other variables to ground truth and connect, we can then develop like you said, some predictive modeling, and you go, what would a rainforest have to do with Cabernet Sauvignon? My answer is a lot. So where I want to steer things next, as a viticulturist. This is where I should say, the viticulture side of me. I'm very selfish. Not all viticulturist are many are giving open people, but I'm very selfish, and the only thing I care about is okay, what's happening with my vineyard? And what's that gonna look like? 10, 15 years from now, very hot topic right now in the in the wine industry is Wow, things are changing clearly. And so what kinds of changes Am I gonna have to make? Or can I make in terms of what plants I'm planting? Going forward? And I'm guessing that you probably are having some, some insights into plant response under these different conditions? Do you think that we're going to have some models or some ideas in the future about how, you know specific crops like vines might be modified, either in terms of species choice varieties choice or management techniques, or things like that? Is there is there some help for us here?

Joshua Fisher 26:18

Yeah, we already have those, there's kind of two paths or two, two sides to this coin, when it comes to climate change, and viticulture. One is big scale, where can we grow grapes that we couldn't grow before? And to where are we no longer going to be able to grow grapes into the future? The second one is, you know, it's hard to pick up a move to move into a new place or to move out of an old place, what can we do under the changing temperature and changing water cycle and changing seasonal cycle? And so I think that's probably the more immediate pressing question to potentially some of your your listeners is what can we do now? And so, you know, we're working with like the USDA and testing out different seed varieties, and so on. And there's a lot of commercial companies that do to do that as well. And so how do we help? We're not doing seed varieties. We're not doing the genetics of it, although I've got colleagues at Chapman University who are doing that. But what we can do is say, all right, you've got 5, 10 different varieties of the same type of grape, how much water are they using, what's the temperature sensitivity, and not just in a greenhouse or a lab, but across the field. And you can't always get towers and drones everywhere. And you know, maybe you can, but there's local conditions are a little bit unusual. So let's go ahead and plant 10 experimental fields, or maybe you're a grower, and you have a couple fields that you're willing to try out some new varieties. And we can just tell you, yeah, they use less water, or we have also another product called Water Use Efficiency crop for drop in terms of how much carbon is being taken up relative to how much water is being used. And so we can tell you that variety was was pretty good. I think that's the main crux, we can also tell you other things that other people can tell you in terms of phonology, and in Greenup, and so on. I think that helps and dovetails with how I actually got on your podcast with my buddy and colleague, Professor Katie Gold at Cornell University, who does a lot of remote sensing on disease. And so there's diseases are changing with climate change as well. And so with Katie and me arm and arm across, you know, across the coasts, hitting the disease in hyperspectral, and the plant water stress temperature shifts of the thermal, we present a very powerful one, two punch against climate change as it starts to attack our fields and crops. In a more immediate term, we have like a crop yield crop forecast, you know, seasonal forecasts that helps growers understand what they're doing in terms of coming to market, you know, that's a little bit potentially less useful for viticulture, it's more for grain crops and you know, big kind of bulk crops, it's also useful for investors as well. So there's a lot of futures, a lot of crop investors, crop insurance, and so on. And so we can provide just, you know, more accurate forecasts from the existing forecasts, because we have better data on existing conditions and more, a deeper insight into what the plants are seeing doing and feeling and responding because of that temperature signal because of that thermal response.

Craig Macmillan 29:09

That's really cool. And very exciting. And I'm very happy with it. You and Katie, other people are working on this because I think we've done a number of interviews in this area now over the years. And one thing that I have been really inspired by is that 15 years ago, this was kind of a glint in somebody's eye. And then 10 years ago, things were starting to happen. And then probably at least more than even more than five years ago, you'd go to any of the big meetings, and it's like, Hey, we got drones, we can fly your plane. Hey, we got planes, we can fly a plane and these beautiful pictures and stuff. And then suddenly, it actually getting more than five years ago then it was like look at all this NASA stuff. I was like, holy cow. This is taking it to a whole nother level in literally a whole nother level. And so I'm really excited about first I was excited about the data and I'm excited about how we're learning how to use it. And I think that's always been a challenge is We're pretty good at finding ways of collecting data. We're not always so great at figuring out how to use it can run out of time here. But the one thing on this topic that you would tell grape growers in particular, there was one thing that you would tell a grower, what would it be?

Joshua Fisher 30:16

Yeah, if there was one thing I would tell a grape grower is that we're here to support you. And we are working on the technology to meet your needs and demands, the technology is available for you, by all means, reach out, you can Google me, email me, no problem. I'll hook you up some sample data, you know, see if it looks good. If you want to buy in great, if not, no worries, if you just want some advice, consulting, it's all about help. We're all on this ship together Planet Earth to get there. You know, it's all about collaborations and helping across the board.

Craig Macmillan 30:46

Where can people find out more about you?

Joshua Fisher 30:48

I've got a website, my own personal website, you can see all my publications and datasets and so on.

Craig Macmillan 30:54

We will link to that.

Joshua Fisher 30:55

JB Fisher dot org. You can Google me on Josh Fisher and Chapman or Joshua hydrostat. I'm on Twitter, try to tweet out all my papers are relevant papers and science findings in the literature. I'm on LinkedIn and I do meet blog posts on papers met once a quarter on medium. So we're trying to get out there and try to communicate Yeah, more than happy to help.

Craig Macmillan 31:17

Sounds like you're easy to find my guest today. It was Joshua Fisher. He's Associate Professor of Environmental Science and Policy at Chapman University. And he's also the science lead for a company called Hydrosat. And we've been talking about things that are a new window, and I'm very excited about having that window opened in that window being opened wider and wider all the time. Josh, thanks for being a guest. This is great.

Joshua Fisher 31:39

Thanks, Craig. And hopefully, your listeners found it interesting.

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

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Do you know where your food comes from?

“Food disconnect” is a term used to describe the average consumers lack of knowledge about where their food comes from and how it’s made.

When it comes to wine, most people only see the finished product: what’s in their glass.

For sustainable wine brands, there’s yet another level to this disconnect:

While consumers name food and beverage as one of the most important industries when it comes to sustainability, more than one in four US adults said they don't know what makes a product sustainable (Morning Consult, 2022).

This introduces an opportunity for sustainable winegrowers and winemakers.

Sustainability Sells! After Kathy Kelley and her colleagues at Penn State University learned about the environmental benefits of using cover crops under grapevines, they wondered if promoting this sustainable practice could be part of a marketing strategy to sell more wine.

When they tested this theory with real-world wine consumers, they found that 72% of the wine consumers surveyed were willing to pay a $1 surcharge to cover associated sustainable production costs, and 26% were even willing to pay a $2 surcharge!

Get Specific It’s important to note that for the participants in the study, simply hearing that a wine brand acted sustainably wasn’t enough – it was learning the importance of the specific sustainable practice that increased customers’ willingness to pay more for the wine.

“… We’re seeing a consumer group that wants to be educated and wants to know exactly what is going on with sustainable wine production,” Kathy says in a Penn State article summarizing her findings. “So, being descriptive about what it actually means to include cover crops in a vineyard is a way to be attractive to them.”

Sharing your sustainable story has many benefits. It can be used as a marketing strategy, it helps combat “food disconnect,” and it helps spread awareness of sustainable practices that protect and regenerate natural resources.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Sustainable Story | Print * Sustainable Story | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story? * Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured

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When it comes to nutrition in your vineyard, you need to know the environment that your vineyard is planted in including mineral nutrition, soil microbes, nitrogen from rainwater, and nutrients or potentially salt from well water. Fritz Westover, Host of the Vineyard Underground Podcast and Founder of Virtual Viticulture Academy shares a big-picture approach to nutrient management that is practical for any grower. He covers:

Why it is important to test tissue both at bloom and veraison
How to take tissue samples
When macro and micronutrient additions are most essential

If you are a long time Member of our organization then you probably remember Fritz from his days with Vineyard Team in 2013 and 2014. We are thrilled to have Fritz back on air with us for the third time. Plus, I recently had the pleasure of being a guest on his podcast, Vineyard Underground. Search for episode 034: Why Sustainability Certification Programs for Vineyards Matter – with Beth Vukmanic on your favorite podcast player to listen in. And we have that linked in the show notes.

Resources: * 1/16/2024 Tailgate | Ag Order 4.0 Update * 57: Wet Climate Viticulture * 115: Examining Plant Nutrient Mobility with SAP Analysis * 155: Sustainable Vineyard Management Across Different Climates * 191: CropManage: Improving the Precision of Water and Fertilizer Inputs * Fritz Westover Bio * Healthy Soils Playlist * The Science of Grapevines - Marcus Keller * Vineyard Underground Podcast * Vineyard Underground Podcast - 016: Nitrogen Sources and Strategies for Application with Paul Crout * Vineyard Underground Podcast - 034: Why Sustainability Certification Programs for Vineyards Matter – with Beth Vukmanic * Virtual Viticulture Academy

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Fritz Westover. He is a Viticulturist, who works around the United States. Especically the the south east and he is the host of the Vineyard Underground podcast, and also the founder of the Virtual Viticulture Academy. And today we're gonna talk about nutrient management. Thanks for being on the show.

Fritz Westover 0:20

Hey, Craig, how you doing today? Good to talk to you and to see you because I get to see you on video while we make this recording.

Craig Macmillan 0:27

You're back. This is another episode for you. Right?

Fritz Westover 0:29

This will be episode number three with Sustainable Winegrowing. So I love coming back. And you know, as you know, I worked with then Vineayrd Team back in 2013, and 14. So, of course, I love what you guys are doing and fully support it.

Craig Macmillan 0:42

Fantastic. So injury management in vineyards is today's topic. Can you give us a definition of what that means and why it's important?

Fritz Westover 0:51

Yeah, and I'm not going to give you the textbook version though, as you know, Craig, I'm going to talk from just how I view it and how I see my growers viewing it that.

Craig Macmillan 0:58

From the heart is that yeah,

Fritz Westover 1:00

I speak about nutrient management from the heart here. In terms of vineyards, you know, we want to see our vines grow healthy. When you plant to vine in the ground, there's certain things in the soil, there's mineral nutrition, there's microbes that cycle nutrients in the soil. So you have kind of a baseline there, you can add things to it. But you have to know what's in the soil. First, we have rain that falls from the sky, hopefully, and hopefully when it needs to, and that has certain mineral nutrient content and nitrogen, things like that people don't count that sometimes nothing will make a plant or like and rainwater. And then if you're pumping water through well, there's different ions, caverns and ions that are in that water, whether it be something that's good, like nitrogen, or magnesium or potassium or something that's not good, like a salt, in large amounts. So there's there's things coming out of the pumping out of the ground on a property that go to vineyard. And then you know, there's things that we put as inputs through a spray program or fertilization program. But before you do that, if you're going to manage the nutrition in your vineyard, you need to know what the content is what where the nutrients are coming from, how the vines take them up. Are you irrigating? Or is it a dry farmed vineyard, and that will determine how much of that nutrition is available to the vine, right, because you can have nutrition in the soil. But during a drought, if the roots aren't actively growing, or if they're pulling away from the soil, they're just not taking it in. It's a very dynamic thing. Management is really just knowing how to read your plants, how to read the environmental conditions, and knowing what you have there and what your inputs are contributing in terms of mineral nutrition to your system as a whole.

Craig Macmillan 2:31

What are some of the considerations then, that growers need to take into account when they're designing the fertilization program? Have you talked about where things come from? You've talked about what you need to look at. But how do you go about it.

Fritz Westover 2:43

I work with several growers all around the southeastern United States and in other states as well through my online academy. So I really get to see a large profile of soil reports, plant tissue reports. And there's certain benchmark measurements we can take in the vineyard that can help us to understand how vines are taking up nutrients. So we can look at a soil test. And we can determine what nutrients are available, we can look at the pH and that will determine the different availability of certain nutrients. We can also take into account the plant tissue samples that we should be doing in the vineyard, whether it's a tissue analysis from a petal, a leaf blade, a whole leaf with petiole attached, which is what I'm using currently, there's more and more interest in SAP analysis. So there's all these different methods of looking at nutrition within an actively growing plant. It gives you the snapshot at best during a certain time of the season. And those are benchmarks. So we're looking at the plants to see kind of what's being taken up from the soil and from the environment and from the water that's being either falling from the sky or going through the irrigation. My best analogy for grape grower would be the VSP probably the most common training system is the VSP so you have the that's vertical sheet positioning, but I use it and say the visual, we look at the soil for moisture, we look at the plants for any signs of higher low vigor to determine usually, if nitrogen is needed in greater quantities, or for certainly for any nutritional deficiencies that show up visually on leaves like magnesium or potassium deficiency, things like that. We know what those symptoms look like, we can look them up easily. And then the P would be the plant tissue test. So I always think of the soil is kind of the bank account of what nutrients are available. And then the tissue test is telling you if your plant is making that ATM withdrawals, so to speak from the soil. And then the visual really just validates if everything is really working as well as that plant tissue test says because I don't know about you, Craig, but I've looked at plant tissue tests that say everything is within the normal range of nutrients, but the plant is stunted. And it could see that the concentration of the nutrients is good in that plant, but the quantity is limiting the growth and production of that vine and it's going to limit the yields in that case. Those are the considerations I look into but there's one one more thing that there are some rules of thumb, what we're taking out of the system. When we ship our grapes out of the vineyard into the winery, whether it's your winery or winery across the state somewhere across the country that is removing nutrients. So you're literally mining your soil and your environment for nutrients, you're putting them into a truck, you're moving them with the fruit, and then they're being made into bottles of wine and someone's drinking those nutrients and they don't get back into the vineyard, if that's what's happening. So, when creating a nutritional budget, a lot of growers will account for the tonnage or whatever measurement of fruit is removed. And there are some tables available. I know Dr. Marcus Keller of Washington State University, in his book on the science of grapevines publishes some of those, but the example would be an average of four pounds of nitrogen. For every tonne of fruit removed from the vineyard, if you do four tons an acre, that's about 16 pounds of nitrogen. So we start to think in these terms of, okay, I just removed 16 pounds with that four ton per acre crop. This is an example of course of an average number, it's really not that simple, because the soil might have three or 4% organic matter in it. And we know from every 1% of organic matter, we're getting x units of nitrogen that are developed and processed within the soil system itself. And so if your organic matter is high enough, you may actually generate enough nitrogen in the soil to replace the nitrogen that was moved out of the vineyard. And this is why growers might go year in and year out without applying some fertilizer, even though they're moving it out of the vineyard in the fruit.

You got a good healthy soil web happening there, you got the relationships that you want, and you're cycling stuff. And so the impact of that removal is less. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And cover cropping and whatnot.

Soil conditions, too. I mean, if the soil is dry in a drought condition, it's not really you're not gonna have a lot of activity, or if it's really hot, because it's been cleaned, cultivated. And you know, how does that affect the microbes that can then cycle those nutrients and convert organic matter into nitrogen and other other mineral nutrients?

Craig Macmillan 7:05

I want to touch on something, something regarded this and that's timing. So like at the grade school science version that we learn is there's a plant, and it grows and things come up. And there's a plant. Yeah, and grapevines don't work that way. There's certain things that they'll take up at certain times of year, they need to have water, moving through the plant, different nutrients are important at different times of year. What do you recommend? What do you how do you manage that?

Fritz Westover 7:34

Yeah. So you know, when I do a presentation on grapevine nutrition, there's this one slide that I go to from a study in Germany, and where they basically took plants apart at different times of the phenological steps throughout the year, whether pre bloom bloom, fruit set, version, and harvest, and they looked at the total mineral content of these nutrients. And they use that to determine what the demand of those nutrients were at different stages. And so what we see is that nitrogen and potassium sort of follow the same curve, where as you get into bloom, there's a spike in demand for nitrogen and potassium. And then after fruit set, it goes down a little, and then the roller coaster ride goes back up, and the demand goes back up in your veraison as your ripening fruit, you need more nitrogen, potassium, things like that. It's all part of the sugar production system. And then you look at also the quantities you know, nitrogen and potassium, are by far the macronutrients that are needed the most, and then something like magnesium. And we do see a lot of magnesium deficiency, east of the Rockies at many sites, it's needed, but not until after fruit set, really, that's where the bumps starts. So the bumps gonna start afterwards. And it's going to kind of gradually go up and down and up again towards veraison But the amount is not as, let's say the quantity that's needed is not as great as something like potassium. And you could do that for each nutrient and look at it to me that that triggers the kind of the benchmark of when we have to start applying fertilizer. And so the interesting thing about that is if I've got a vineyard, where we can put everything through the drip, irrigation and fertigation, we can wait until either right before the time of highest demand, or right at the time, and we can just slug it through the drip, right. If you don't have irrigation, you might be able to do foliar application, but that's not going to get a lot of nutrients into the vine like it will if you put it into the root system. So you'll you'll hear and I know we're going to discuss this as well, because we discussed it earlier that you know, dry farmed vineyards or vineyards in areas where it rains and they don't have irrigation, have to plan a little bit farther ahead. Because if you're going to put something like magnesium out or potassium, it needs to be worked into the soil with a rain event if you don't have to ration or cultivated in in some cases. So you can't wait until that perfect window. You've got to get it out ahead of time so that it makes its way down to the roots and it's available for uptake at that critical window that I was referring to before in the phenol logical stages.

Craig Macmillan 9:56

Can I wait till I see a forecast that there's a storm coming and then get my material out? Or do I put it up earlier than then just kind of hope that it rains? I mean, how much time do I have?

Fritz Westover 10:08

Yeah, that's a really great question to Craig. And so you don't want to answer every question with it depends, right? So you've got to get some concrete information for a grower to actually follow. So then you start thinking about...

Craig Macmillan 10:19

There's nothing wrong with it depends.

Fritz Westover 10:21

It's okay, as long as you follow up with, but this is what I would do, right. And that's what I like to say. So this is what I would do if nitrogen was the nutrient in question, if you put out especially an ammonia, nitrogen, something like that on the ground or something that is not bound up, like if compost, you have a more stable form of nitrogen that's in organic matter, if you have something like ammonium, it might be readily evaporated, or it's going to it's going to volatilize, and you'll lose it to the atmosphere. So you definitely want to get that out as soon as you can, right before the rain. So the rain can immediately move that nutrient into the soil. And that will secure it, so to speak, and stop the volatilization from occurring. If it's something like magnesium, really not as volatile, right. Or if it's something like phosphorus, or if you're putting out calcium in the form of lime, or gypsum, there's not going to be a lot of volatility. So you can put those types of products out farther ahead of the rain, and hope that the rain will eventually come and work them in. So I guess in that matter, depends on what you're applying. And you can, you can decide based on that, if you want to trust that forecast or not.

Craig Macmillan 11:28

You know, I just started something, I interviewed somebody else recently, and they were working with underlying vegetation issues. It was fascinating to me because of the work that they were doing in there not necessarily chemical burn down, not necessarily inrow cultivation in the comment was it rains enough here that I can do whatever I want. But there's going to be plants growing there two days later, in your experience in parts of the country. And I would love to have some, you know, compare and contrast here. What do I need to do in terms of preparing that area, you know, around the root system, because I'm trying to get top to bottom right down to get in there. And then also, you mentioned system wide things. And so what do I need to do there to make that work?

Fritz Westover 12:12

Let's cover the system wide. First, when I talk about system wide or make creating these, quote unquote, sea changes in the soil, you're not going to make a sea change the soil is the soil. It's got its own living breathing organisms in it. But let's say you were chronically deficient in calcium, or magnesium, right? We'll use those as two good examples. If you apply your calcium, whether it's lime, or magnesium in the form of dolomitic, lime, which is calcium with 10%, magnesium, great way to put magnesium and calcium in the soil to acidifying your soil like you would with a magnesium sulfate. Or if you're putting out a magnesium sulfate in a high pH, soil, anything that you're trying to put out to change the plant uptake. So let's say really high potassium uptake in your plant is undesirable to you for some reason, and you're getting magnesium deficiency. As a result, if we only put that magnesium or that calcium right at the base of the vine, you can only really change the the cation exchange or the base saturation of those cations right in that small area. And that's important because it's a major area of uptake. And this is something a lot of growers don't think about, even when you're dripping something through a system that biggest area of uptake is near the crown of the vine at the base of the root system. And feeder roots will take up stuff too. But that's where if you're going to put a one time slug, you know, it's got to be within 18 inches or so the trunk, but you still have roots, especially on older vines that are moving out into the row middles. Over the years, they get into the row middles. And so they're still getting access to that perhaps high level of potassium in that bass saturation or that cation exchange out there. So they can still kind of pull that up. So if you want to create a wider change and impacts the system as a whole, you're better off applying that product as a broadcast into the middle and under the vines. I have done that with magnesium when we're trying to compete with potassium, because we see magnesium magnesium deficiency, or also if we're aligning soil. So in eastern states, we have acid soil, parts of Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, where I've worked, even in East Texas or north of that in Arkansas, depending on where you're at. You run into these acid soils, and we're talking like 4.5 ph. Yeah, so it is or like wine, right? Yeah, yeah. So we know that nutrients are not as available many nutrients like phosphorus is deficient boron, other cations are not as available. Due to that high hydrogen ion competition. We're going to add lime. Hopefully before the vineyard is planted. You do that before but I often go back and add maintenance applications of lime over the years as well within the vineyard system, and we do that over the whole field. We don't just do that in the rows where we're planting vines, because we want the vines to be encouraged to explore the soil and to mine, if you will, for nutrients outside of that immediate crown zone near the vine. Because eventually that will be depleted, your vines are going to keep growing and searching for these nutrients. So by doing a broadcast application, you create a soil that not only is more amendable, for roots to grow in, because acid soils are actually toxic to root tips that you get a high amount of available aluminum at 4.5 ph. And that will stop a root tip from growing. So if you want your roots to grow and expand, you don't want any chemical barriers, you don't want any physical barriers like compaction, you put something like that out before planting. So in Georgia where I work, very acidic soils, we will put out something around six tons per acre of the dolomitic lime before we plant some of the sites and then within two years, we're coming back with as much as two times per acre, because we're trying to to over time, bring that soil into maybe a 6.0 or 6.5 pH so that nutrients are just more available, so that we don't have to fertilize as much we don't have to put inputs into the soil. Right? We don't want to do that we don't have to cost money, and it could have environmental impacts.

Craig Macmillan 16:12

While we're still on this, this area, you got pre planned, are you recommending that we shank materials in? Or are we incorporated in a disking pass? And then over time that moves down in? And then also, if I've got an established vineyard to incorporate these materials? Or to get these materials there? I mean, do I need to do a cultivation pass and then do a broadcast and then cultivate again to stir it in?

Fritz Westover 16:39

Yeah, so these are all different methods that are used Craig and any grower out there who's developing a vineyard site in the near future or has done it recently, you'll hear conflicting opinions on the best way to do it. But what I like to do is break it down to how did the nutrients move in the soil environment? And how do I put them by the root where they're needed, and make sure they're not going to get washed away right away? So yes, if I'm starting a new site, we're going to look at the soil, we're going to determine what our amendments are going to be, let's say that the vineyard soil is low in phosphorus and need some line that to change the pH but also to increase calcium. And let's say it's a little bit low on potassium as well. Okay. So in that instance, if you just stir the soil up and put the lime in and fix the pH, that would be wonderful, because you've already made nutrient availability, so much better for that for the uptake of that plant root system. So that's good. That's the first step. But if then you go in and plant the vines, and you say, well, we needed phosphorus and potassium. And I know that new plants need nitrogen, so I'm going to take like a triple 10, or a triple 13, that's nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium at 10 to 13%. And I'm just gonna sprinkle three ounces around the vine. Well, how did those nutrients move down into the soil? Well, the first time it rains, or you irrigate, and it touches those granules, the first thing that moves down quickly through the soil, what we call the mass flow is the nitrogen. And so that's going to be immediately available. So the vines is gonna pick up nitrogen, it's gonna say, let's go, let's grow. The next level of infiltration would be the potassium, we know that potassium is somewhat moderately mobile in the mass flow, but it doesn't move as fast as the nitrogen. So with enough rainfall and frequent rainfall or irrigation, it could move down gradually and get to the root system, that phosphorus on the other hand, it's just going to sit there on the surface like a rock. And it might take years for it really to move effectively. And so if you know your, your soil needs something like phosphorus, and potassium, you might add the phosphorus, whatever form phosphorus, you're using rock phosphate, if you're organic, or PTO five or some, put that on the on the surface, and you amend it with the lime to get it down deep to where the roots are going to be planted to. So maybe it's 15 inches, for an example 30 centimeters, that's all they're ready for the roots. And then later, you can come in and topdress something like potassium, for your final cultivation, just to work it into the topsoil. So it's, it's at a better stage, and I'm giving you an ideal scenario, obviously. And then the nitrogen, you could go ahead and top dress later, or put your drip system or let the rain work it in right before the rain like we talked about with that nitrogen. And that way you're getting things right at the root where it's needed. And you're not doing it in phases where it gets nitrogen grows a lot and then doesn't have enough other stuff like potassium, magnesium or micronutrients to keep up with that growth. And that's where you see these deficiencies starting to set in.

Craig Macmillan 19:26

Actually, that's a great kind of transition. You know, we talked about VSP and I think we do a lot of folks relies primarily upon visual and it's not simply the, you know, the tiger stripes in the leaf and that kind of a thing or the yellowing, but they're looking at how the crop set they're looking at when the sheets tipped start to quit. Because yeah, that's driven by water, but it's driven by by other resources to that kind of thing. Yeah. What can I do to quantify that? And how can I be kind of forward looking? I mean, you talked about removal. is a materials with harvest? So I know I'm I want to order some stuff, you know, but it's a long term kind of project.

Fritz Westover 20:07

Yeah, it is. It is.

Craig Macmillan 20:08

I mean, you walk vineyards with people, obviously. But then also you mentioned you see all these reports of it? What kinds of reports? Do you want to see what time of year? How do you put all that together?

Fritz Westover 20:19

Right. The visual is really important. And the only risky run there is some of these nutrients don't show visually until it's too late. A lot of our micronutrients are really important, as you know, Craig, for fruit set, and pollination, and fertilization rather, boron, zinc, molendinum, copper, all these things. So if you do your plant tissue test at bloom, which is the first time you would do it during the season, it you're already in bloom. So you're late to add that micronutrient, right. So then some growers will say, Well, I'm just going to put up this prophylactic kind of micronutrients, spray two or three weeks before bloom just to make sure they have what they need. And you can do that. But do you really need to. So I really rely on taking the bloom sample, because it is kind of like your progress report. It tells you, you know, how you're doing for the season. And you know, are you destined for an A plus a B minus by the time you get to the end of the season, because you still have a chance to get things in gear and improve your grade, right. So that bloom time sample of what I do is whole leaf sample with blade and petiole attached, some people just do petioles, separate the petiole and the blade, I've had very good success and consistent results with blade and petiole attached. I also, when I have an issue where there's, you know, maybe we're doing intensive fertilization, or I've got a deficiency, I might sometimes separate the petiole from the whole leaf. And that way, I can look at both reports and have two numbers to kind of look at instead of one. But the ranges are different for a blade versus petioles. So you definitely want to look at those. And I tell my growers to just go to my website, and you can download the, the standards there and look at them, because you don't need a consultant to just see what's out of balance, you can look at a table, I do that at bloom, and that gives me the report card. But the second time I do it is that version. And that's your report card for the season, so to speak. So by the time you get to version, you're at entering your maximum stress time, if you take the plant tissue sample too far after version, a lot of the nutrients have moved into the fruit. And the tissue sometimes is already suffering from the seasonal wear and tear. So it can give you these false ideas that you're really low and then you put out too much fertilizer. At bloom, we take a leaf next to a inflorescence or flower, because that is a representative leaf. And then at version, we go about seven leaves down from a shoot tip that has not been hedged or altered. And that is what's considered a representative leaf at that stage of growth. And that's the report card. Now the report card is really important. And I tell my growers if you can only afford or have time to do one sample, do the one version and get the final report card because that's the one that we then use for the next season to say okay, boron was a little low zinc was a little low. So we're going to find some boron and zinc to put into the system either through the drip or through a foliar spray before bloom, to make sure that we don't have issues with fruit set. So that's how we use that if we wait for bloom, it's a little late to make the change. So getting those two phases is really key for me. And then of course, like you said, being in the vineyard observing growth, looking for signs of deficiency, some things do show, you can clearly see nitrogen as pale leaves. Boron is actually important for nitrogen assimilation. So you could have what you think is adequate boron or nitrogen in your program. But if boron is missing, you might not get the assimilation and the you know, the proper use of the boron, or the nitrogen rather within the vines. So there's, you know, things to look for, to give you clues as well. So when I see something visual, sometimes magnesium deficiency can look a lot like potassium deficiency, it's on the order of interveinal, the potassium tends to be more beginning around the margin or outside edge of the leaf. So I always tell my growers, let's send in a sample, it's like 20 bucks, right? Let's just verify it with a lab report before we put the wrong thing down and make the problem way worse, right.

Craig Macmillan 24:10

When we're doing this, what are some of the most difficult decisions, some of the biggest obstacles to being successful here? And I'm talking about everything in terms of like you're getting good information, getting picking the right to formulations or the right products, the right individual minerals, and then getting into the plan. Are there regional differences that you've seen? Or are there kind of obstacles that everybody kind of faces?

Fritz Westover 24:37

There's definitely regional issues. You know, I can say that across the board. And this state over here, like I'll say, Georgia, we see magnesium and boron and nitrogen are our three biggest deficiencies consistently in those soils. You go to California, and certain areas where I work there we'd see it's either nitrogen or potassium that are low and sometimes zinc. And then if I go to the high planes in Texas, it's usually nitrogen and zinc, are my lowest. And sometimes, and then I go to the hill country of Texas, where it's cacareous soil. And we see that iron deficiency becomes an issue because it's just that high pH really ties it up, growers will sometimes put a lot of zinc down in the soil, but then we have to be mindful of the competition of certain nutrients with each other, because too much zinc can compete with phosphorus for uptake and vice versa. And then, as I mentioned already before, the pH of the soil varies greatly from one region to the next. And that's why getting the amendments and getting the soil in a pH that's, you know, ideally at that 6.5, for greens, right? That's kind of like, you know, you're good. From seven,

Craig Macmillan 25:40

Have you ever receive a site that was like, exactly 6.5.

Fritz Westover 25:45

I have I have because I've looked at it for their soil reports, I've seen a few but no, usually we're saying we need to add a little or, you know, seven is fine, we can deal with it, we'll put a different rootstock that's better under you know, calcareous soil. You know, I didn't mention that and really emphasize that enough, I talked about plant tissue sampling, and visual evaluation, I don't do soil sampling annually with most of my vineyards, because their soils just aren't changing that much, unless they're really doing heavy amendments of something that that sea change, they're trying to go for it. So we'll do this about once every three years, and just compare them. And so I think the most important thing any grower can do, and this is how I work with it with kind of my long term growers I've been with for 10 years, you know, we have a soil sample every three years. So we can compare what the trend is, over those years, if we see potassium is going down. Well, we know that's one of the greatest Nutrients taken out of the system of the soil with fruit that's much higher than nitrogen much, much, much higher than magnesium or phosphorus. So you're literally mining your soil for potassium, well, I have sites where we have high potassium, and we're trying to get more magnesium in there. So I almost never put potassium back in the soil, I'm happily mining it out of the soil. And that's going to be totally different than maybe a vineyard in California where potassium availability is just not as good or as high. We're kind of looking at it that way. And same thing with plant tissue test, you can really see sometimes more volatile fluctuation in plant tissue tests from year to year. And that's where you have to start asking the question, okay, how much rainfall did we have? Was there good soil moisture, I've run into problems where irrigated vineyards, we hit a drought, and you have normally rained during the season, like let's say, in West Texas, or parts of Arizona, where I work, there's rainfall during the monsoon season. So you go into the winter with a soil profile that's nice and full. And then in the spring, you come out and you really have full access to the whole mineral nutrient profile of the soil and the roots grow throughout the whole soil, then all of a sudden, you have a drought for year two. And this has happened in my West Texas growers, areas where those roots that are in the row, middle, all of a sudden are not able to pull up anything from the soil. So they're shrinking. And as they shrink, they pull away from the soil as a strategy to minimize water loss. And so you're not getting the nutrients that are available out there. So we have to consider that and sometimes increase our fertilizer levels based on the fact that we're losing access to the soil nutrients. And the best way to do that is to take the plant tissue test, and find out if that's really happening, but the plant tissue test can fluctuate. And I guess my point is understanding how the environmental conditions right in and around are leading up to that plant tissue test. really affected nutrient content is important. So we don't have that. Like I'll say it again, that knee jerk reaction like oh my gosh, nitrogen is low, let's put 50 pounds per acre out which is you know, ridiculously high. Yeah, maybe just needs to rain or you need to irrigate more, and that will fix the problem.

Craig Macmillan 28:41

Yeah, what is one thing, the one thing that you would tell growers on this topic, one piece of advice or insight or anything.

Fritz Westover 28:50

In addition to doing your soil sampling every few years, and your plant tissue tissue every year at bloom at veraison and some growers may even do it more often or some growers may prefer to do SAP analysis on a more frequent basis. That's all good and well. Just do it at your regular intervals, and get your long term data so you can see trends and changes. Then take some time to really understand number one, as we mentioned before, with the demand of the plant for each nutrient, okay, when is nitrogen, potassium versus magnesium or other micronutrients? When are they most essential for uptake into the vine? And how could you put them into the ground or into the system or onto the foliage in a method that is going to get that nutrient to the vine in time for its high demand, you need to know that vine needs it, because if it doesn't need it, you don't need to put it in there. And then finally understand how the nutrients move within the soil. That was the other thing we covered. So I had a great podcast on the vineyard underground with Paul Crout who works in the Central Coast a good friend of mine, he's worked with video team to Episode 16 We did a deep dive into Vine nutrition and availability in different forms of nitrogen and how some are immediately available and some are more slow release available. So I won't get into all that now. But understanding the availability of that fertilizer formulation that you're using is really critical. Because that's going to tell you not not only when you're going to apply it, how far ahead of the demand for the vine, but what method you're going to use to apply it. Will it be better off put into drip, apply to the soil? Or maybe as a foliar application.

Craig Macmillan 30:25

Where can people find out more about you?

Fritz Westover 30:27

Ok me? Oh, thanks, Craig.

Craig Macmillan 30:29

Oh, little Oh, me. Oh, me.

Fritz Westover 30:31

Well, you can find me chatting like I am with you on the Vineyard Underground podcast, the vineyardundergroundpodcast.com Or just look for that, wherever you stream podcast on Spotify or for Apple podcast, or if you would like to download some of the past presentations I've done on nutrition management, or the charts to determine the critical levels for nutrients have many of those that are free and available to the public go to virtualviticultureacademy.com The academy is where I teach grape growing and have a membership in there where I advise growers on a week to week basis.

Craig Macmillan 31:05

That's awesome. Our guest today has been Fritz Westover. He is a viticulturist. He's the host of the vineyard underground podcast. He's also the founder of a really great resource. You definitely need to know about this. If you're a grower, and that's the Virtual Viticulture Academy. He's not kidding, a lot of resources there and really good quality resources as well. So thanks for being on the podcast.

Fritz Westover 31:27

Hey, thanks, Craig. You guys are an amazing resource to the industry to and you have tons of free and available information. Keep doing the great things that you're doing. I'm a listener, so I'm a fan. It's really privileged to be on here my friend.

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

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Thach and Lease asked the managers of 375 United States wineries, "How much impact do you believe your social media efforts have on wine sales?" 87% of respondents said they believe that their social media presence increases sales.

Social media has changed the way consumers and businesses interact. It not only provides convenient two-way communication between consumers and the products and services they support, but it has opened the door for consumers to participate in the marketing and messaging of brands by creating their own content about the products they love and sharing it with their friends, family, and communities.

A 2018 study looking at the social media adoption and activities of 1173 wineries in Germany, the USA, New Zealand and Australia, suggests that "wineries need to develop a clear purpose for using social media and then adapt to the needs of the consumers in their respective markets." To do so, it is important to understand how consumers interact with wine brands on social media and what kind of content they are looking for.

Provide Value by Offering Guidance Wine is complex. Many consumers who are new to drinking wine don't know what they're looking for, and could easily find themselves overwhelmed and intimated by the numerous varieties, tasting notes, and wine brands on the market. Creating educational and informative wine content can help to create trust between consumers and your brand.

· Bonus tip: Ask your followers what they want to learn more about! When you deliver on their requests, they'll continue to look out for your valuable posts.

Interact With Consumers Word of mouth is one of the most common ways we hear about new brands and products to try. We are social creatures and feel more secure taking a chance on a product that has been vetted by a friend or colleague. How often have you seen your friends and family post a picture of a meal at their favorite restaurant, a picnic spread with a bottle of wine set up in the yard, or simply posing with a new item they fell in love with? Next time you see one of these, check the caption - a lot of people will tag the brands and companies included in their photos!

If you receive a notification that your brand has been tagged in someone's content, take the opportunity to make a connection with a loyal customer by leaving a response in the comments. Social media offers a low-cost way for you to build relationships with consumers and your brand community, and being a brand that engages with its customers sets you up to receive continued support.

There is an easy way to catch up on posts you're tagged in on Instagram that you may have missed! Go to your profile, and above the grid displaying your posts to the far right is an icon you can tap on to see posts from other users that you've been tagged in. Check it out, and get to interacting!

Collaborate with an Influencer Social media "lifestyle influencers" are people who use their social media channels to promote products and services of companies whose products are used by everyday people in their daily lives. They connect their niche audiences to brands that share common values and interests - a phenomenon that is changing the way consumers find and connect with brands. Specifically, "wine influencers" are often educated and even certified in wine education.

Teaming up with a social media influencer is a fun way to reach groups of people who may be unaware of your brand. Collaboration with a wine influencer is a way to ensure that your brand is being shared with consumers who are passionate about wine and wine culture.

Psst ... we are helping spread the word about sustainability and our members' brands! Keep an eye out for the next Marketing Tip, where we will show our recent social media influencer collaborations that have helped spread the news about our members' good work protecting the people and the planet.

Tag us, and use the SIP Certified GIPHYs! If you are SIP Certified, we love seeing and sharing your content! Tag us @SIPCertified in your upcoming Instagram and Facebook posts.

And make sure you use our GIPHYs on your next Instagram story or Snapchat content. Just search for "SIP Certified" in the stickers, or check out the link to this article to save the files so you can use them in your emails or on your website.

Check out the show notes for links to this article, another post filled with the latest social media tips to grow your following, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Does social media impact wine sales? * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Smart Training online course

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The phrases climate change, greenhouse gas emissions, and carbon sequestration are common place in wine production. But what can you do make a science-based, and achievable impact? Brianna Beighle, Assistant Winemaker at Patz & Hall Wine Company explains scope one, two, and three emissions as they apply to the wine industry. Viticulturalists and winemakers can look at easy to measure practices like diesel fuel use, Nitrogen application timing, and light weight glass bottles to reduce their footprint. She explains that even small shifts in management can have a big impact.

Resources: * 67: Impacts of Climate Change on Wine Production * 91: Carbon Sequestration * 122: Preserving Agriculture Land to Combat Climate Change * 125: Using Grape Grower Demographics to Influence Climate Change Adaptation * 167: Use Biochar to Combat Climate Change * 171: How to Farm Wine Grapes for Climate Change * 2020 HiRes Vineyard Nutrition Research Update * Bottled Up: Unpacking the Facts about Wine Bottles and Climate Change * Brianna Beighle’s LinkedIn * Christina Lazcano, University of California, Davis * International Wineries for Climate Action (IWAC) * Shaky Ground: A company called Indigo is paying farmers to trap carbon in their soils. Some researchers say the climate benefits are dubious * Soil organic carbon sequestration rates in vineyard agroecosystems under different soil management practices: A meta-analysis * Vineyard nutrient management in Washington State

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And our guest today is Brianna Beighle. She is assistant winemaker at Patz & Hall Wine Company. And she's an MBA student in the half school, the UC Berkeley, and she focuses on sustainability. And she's been working on some pretty interesting things around science based decision making and climate change. Welcome to the podcast, Brianna.

Brianna Beighle 0:18

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here in chat with you, Craig.

Craig Macmillan 0:20

I am too. You've been doing quite a bit of thinking. And also communicating on the role of what we would call science based decision making regarding companies or firms, sometimes I call them and things like climate change, climate change. In particular, this requires us to draw some boxes conceptually, maybe from even a systems thinking approach. If you if you subscribe to that kind of an idea where in order to get a handle on talking about something, we're probably need to kind of define it. And sometimes it's just a question of where do you draw the lines around? What in what? So in the realm of business and climate change industries and climate change? There are some boxes have already been defined, that have been found to be useful. But they also have some limitations? What would some of those be in your mind is a good starting points?

Brianna Beighle 1:05

Oh, goodness, I guess I'll just go first to where you're talking about some things that have already been established. And I'm just going to say, the first ones that everyone has out there is that the scope one, scope two and scope, three emissions. So those have been established to kind of bucket as you're saying where specific emissions come from. And scope one emissions for I'm sure most of you are familiar, are ones that are directly associated with company facilities, company vehicles. Scope two emissions are ones that are generated from electricity production for the facility. So that's heating, that's cooling, you may not be generating that electricity on site in some cases, but you're still claiming it because you're using the lab that electricity on site. And scope three is, as Craig, you know, it's kind of the catch all for everything else.

Craig Macmillan 1:58

Exactly.

Brianna Beighle 1:59

I would say that it's useful in some respect, where it taught us how to think about emissions and to pinpoint fossil fuels are where a lot of our emissions come from as a society on this planet. But I think that scope three is too general, where it lumps all these things together. And it makes us not claim anything as our own, which kind of inhibits us, as we say, What can I do to move forward?

Craig Macmillan 2:23

Exactly. That's a really good point, in particular relate to the wind industry, would you consider for wineries Would you consider CO2 emissions from fermentation is scope one emissions?

Brianna Beighle 2:34

I would I think I'd like to introduce another topic here. And that's modern carbon versus versus fossil carbon. And so what what that saying here is, fossil carbon is everything that we are drawing out from the earth, it's very deep in the ground, and we're excavating it out, and it's been there for years. And so again, that's fossil fuels really easy. And then we go to other types of carbon, which would be for what we've got with fermentation, in which case, that's carbon that's already naturally generated and already within the realm of the atmosphere. So maybe this, that was a silly way to explain it, but here, I'm gonna break it down. So what it is, is our plants are taking in carbon our vines are taking in carbon from the air, and then they're incorporating it into the trunk into the leaves and into the fruit. So that carbon was already in the atmosphere, whether I put it in a ferment and make it co2 And alcohol, or whether I dropped that fruit on the ground, it's just going to cycle back in to the atmosphere. So it's a cyclical process. So that's something that the earth is naturally balanced to. The carbon matters in my mind is the carbon that's not constantly cycling, and is not part of a natural process. And that's, again, the fossil carbons that were stored, and we're pulling out and we're admitting,

Craig Macmillan 3:47

That makes a lot of sense. So there we are talking about boxes again, right? So I can say, hey, yeah, there's CO2 being released by my Fermat. Or there's some kind of a nitrous oxide or some other kind of a nitrogen based compound being released by sheep that are grazing my vineyard or by leguminous plants that are breaking down or whatever it might be. And there's those are naturally happening things is they're they're already in the environment, they're not being mined. How do I get a handle on what different processes are contributing how much they're contributing to greenhouse gas emission releases for things like my power usage, my scope two or my tractors or my farm trucks or whatever it might be? If I want to make decisions about reducing my outputs? How do I get a handle on that?

Brianna Beighle 4:40

I'd say an ag, it's somewhat complex to get a handle on where our emissions come from and how we reduce them because it's all bound up in natural processes. Like you said, Yes, we're, we understand when we burn diesel for our tractors, what nitrous oxide we produce from that because that's an equation that we know we know how that diesel gets converted, where it becomes really difficult. And what you're trying to get at here seems like is that our biggest emitter, specifically in the vineyard is coming from the soil, and it is coming from the microbes in the soil. And it depends on what type of nitrogen you have available. It depends on how much water you have in the soil. There are so many things that are tied into that, that means that I can't say like, Hey, you apply this much nitrogen, it's going to turn into this much nitrous oxide. It doesn't it doesn't work like that, especially and I'd say it gets hard to in grapes. Because the nitrogen that's available to grapes, that's so we've got we've got our two forms of nitrogen that we apply. And that's we usually apply nitrate, there's also ammonia that can be applied to the soils. But in grapes that's considered toxic. And we're unlucky in the fact that all the ag products that are out there commercially, to kind of help reduce your nitrous your nitrogen emissions, your nitrous oxide emissions are because they convert the nitrous oxide and they hold it as ammonia, which we don't want for our soils. So we can't use that in grapes. So I guess I kind of just like spun around in a bit to say, yes, the nitrogen cycle is all cyclical, we have to think about it sure our tractors, that one's easy for us to think about, we need to think about it in our cover crop, because all the length, legumes we put out like those have nitrogen, and those get converted by microbes. And those get released, like that's still a source of emissions, we need to think about it. You mentioned rumens, I mentioned that and talked on that really quick. But yeah, our rumens our sheep or cows, they're all belching methane. That's what they do. And they have a lot of benefits to us from a sustainability perspective, from from a soil health perspective. And we need to count those benefits. But we also need to put them in the context of like they have emissions too.

Craig Macmillan 6:40

Because even though we're talking about it, here's where things get fun. So even though we're talking about things that were already in the environment, right, they're above the surface of the Earth, they're in the soil during this throw in the air, that animal, or microbial process, whatever it is, is converting it into a form that has a very significant greenhouse gas emission effect. So methane, for instance, is the big one was one of the big ones. So it wasn't methane before, but it's methane now.

Brianna Beighle 7:09

Yeah, methane being 25 times more insular in terms of its climate impacts. And then we also have the benefit where methane converts to CO2. So that's why we extra don't want to make it if you're gonna make one or the other. So that kind of comes down again, me branching off to why composting is important. Rather than landfills, it's like, Sure, it turns into CO2 when it goes into the atmosphere and composting, but that's better than going methane in the landfill and then going to CO2.

Craig Macmillan 7:34

How do I get a handle on this? How do I I'm a manager, I've been with the forces, the powers that be have said, okay, look, we need to take a look at our carbon footprint or greenhouse gas issues. Go tell me what we've been doing and then make some recommendations for how we change it. How do I Where do I get data? I'm How do I go about this?

Brianna Beighle 7:53

I think to start off with it's kind of just getting familiar with folks in the industry who have already benchmarked because it's really, it's expensive to create a lifecycle assessment. And I'd say that that's kind of a career that's just starting up. For example, we have the California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance, they put together a study in which they looked at all the emissions throughout the entire throughout the entire wind cycle that goes from vineyard that even includes which I'm really happy about that they included some scope threes, we'll put that in quotes of inputs that we get, and all the way to packaging and winery and transport. So I think going there and just everyone in the wine industry, understanding where our emissions come from, because I think they break it down in a really pretty package. Again, though, everybody has their own emissions, we all have our own individual choices that we make, that does deviate from that, for example, I know Tablas Creek, kind of down closer to your area, they've done their own assessment of their greenhouse gases, which is like, amazing. We need folks like that, who can show each of us how to think about it. So look at those of us who have already done these assessments, and use them as a market and go to their talks, like hear what they say is hard, because that's going to be hard for you too. And I see from this soil perspective, it's kind of it's impossible to really calculate out. I know, we can try and work on it. But someone will say, I don't know. We're not going to know we just reduce our nitrogen applications and be conscious that vineyards sequester carbon, yes, they do. But we also create greenhouse gases, like we said, in the form of nitrous oxides. As long as we have a holistic perspective, we can understand what our real contribution is. And that's important because if we want to make progress for our industry, and we want to try and ride the storm that's already started that's already coming towards us. We each need to own our part and and take the steps that we can to to help create be part of the solution, especially since in agriculture and food production. Were the kind of the first to be hit by it.

Craig Macmillan 9:51

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I am familiar with the Tablas Creek project study that's being done by Charlotte DeCock Cal Poly SLO, San Luis Obispo, and Christina Lazcano at UC Davis, and it's really intense. I'm really looking forward to where they come out at the end of this project and what they find out. But they're looking at exactly the things you've been talking about, obviously, and Tablas has been making its own decisions based on that. But I think you have an excellent point that the best that we can do, probably from a practical standpoint, is we can do a little bit of our own work in terms of maybe experimentation or measurement or something like that. But collectively, if we can share what we find out, you know, that's better than nothing. You know, I get this comment all the time when I present research company research that I've done, or things that I've worked on, and it's like, well, yeah, but that's Spain, you know, or that's not Cabernet Sauvignon, or whatever. And it's like, well, this is as close as we can get right now. So yeah, I agree with you, I would love to have it be that specific. But why don't we can we at least start here, whatever we do have, and then we can improve upon as we go along? And of course, the systems are very complex. So it's always kind of a question mark, if I am a manager, and I'm now thinking about this, where do I start? We've talked about where I might find some data. But if I was going to start a project on this, where might I start? How might I prioritize my investigation into carbon footprint or greenhouse gas emissions?

Brianna Beighle 11:20

I'm gonna say, let's start with a low hanging fruit. If we're if we're just getting into it, that would be again, I don't like to use go one adn two emissions. But those are easily calculated, will we know where energy sources are coming from, we know how much fuel we use, we get bills for those things. We know that's quantified already for us. So looking at that, and looking at what we can do to reduce that whether that's we're really lucky in California, where we have recent we have a lot of access to renewable energy, whether that's changing up our purchasing, so that we purchased 100%, renewable, I know some places that's not possible. us in the north coast, we're really lucky that that is possible in a lot of places, looking at those bills, trying to switch over to renewable when we can, investigating whether solar makes sense on site solar for our own energy generation, because there's yes, there's facility wide solar, there's also, you know, I know that there are grants out there currently for getting solar for pumps, for irrigation, like things like that, it doesn't have to be giant or nothing like little steps do count, especially since the price tags on some of the solar projects can be pretty large. So and then also, the easy, big bad guy, which is adjusting down the weight of our glass glass is 29% of the production of wine and the sale of wine. And so that's one that's easy, a lot of it, let's just say it's attitude, it's sometimes form over function. And I think that especially since consumers are starting to demand more climate conscious products, if they find out how big our glass footprint is just for ego, I don't think they're going to be happy. So I think that's something that we can easily do that will not sacrifice the product.

Craig Macmillan 13:01

So this is a big conversation. Two things. Number one, I believe that the marketing research has been done has demonstrated, at least within the last five years pretty, pretty conclusively that folks are willing to pay more for a heavier bottle of wine, they recognize, oh, this is important. It's good enough, even if they think or they know that it's the same product. At the same time I face this regularly, where I people get my face, you know, they say, you know, this is a heavy bottle. I don't like it. Why do wineries not just just the whole span at Why do wineries do this and not do bag in a box? Or why don't they do lighter glass or whatever. And it's, it's it's a difficult conversation in terms of like weighing what is going to work for you as a company in terms of like, what your packaging is going to look like I and I agree with you. And I think this is an important one low hanging fruit, we know that that's the biggest contributor is the is the packaging. So focusing on that's a good idea. Now, how do I get accurate information, good quality information about the carbon footprint of the glass that I buy. And I say this because in my own work, I found that I could make something in France in a super ultra modern state of the art factory with the lowest emissions per metric ton and I could ship it halfway across the world on a boat and it would have lower emissions than something that was made in Mexico and then trucked to Fairfield for those of you who are not familiar with California, the Benicia, Fairfield etc in the Bay Area are big suppliers for wine, all kinds of wine stuff, including glass and then chuck it back down to me at nobody was really given me this information. I was you know, I was looking at it and I'm having to guess what advice do you have on these things? Because because it's easy to say you know, lighter glass in the story, but it's lighter glass, it's got to be made on the moon and then you know, flown in a spaceship you know, might not work out like we think.

Brianna Beighle 15:00

Exactly. And again, like, that's when the we'll just say like the academic and conceptual realm meets the reality of a real business. That's actually a big part of how we can all work towards creating solutions. And it's one of the things it's going to be really hard about this is communication between suppliers and service providers. Like we said, scope three, that we mentioned, that I think is a little bit of a bag of everything. In order to break that down and understand where emissions come from our suppliers, we need to have open communication lines, and we need to, we need them to be open. But we also need to incentivize them to be open with us too. And to maybe adjust things to fit what we see the market is. And I'm not saying that's easy, you're probably more more apt to handle that with your psychology background than I am, Craig. But it's not easy. And again, the numbers say lighter glass. But in reality, that means working with our partners having accessibility to lighter glass, where the energy comes from for that glass, because we know a lot of the glass is made in other places that don't have as clean of energy sources, I hate to say like, I don't know, the perfect solution to that. And it all just comes down to people. And all of us being open with each other and passing, I'm gonna say passing the buck, but in a good way. Like we know, as wineries, our consumers are willing to pay more for sustainable products. And so we need to take some of those gains that we have, and transition that money on to our suppliers for supplying us with more sustainable products, because it's more expensive on their end, to pay for renewable energy, it's more expensive for us and for our suppliers. So we can't just say we want this other product make it the same price, like we have to be putting voting with our dollar and showing that we care about the relationship at the same time.

Craig Macmillan 16:41

What has traditionally been kind of and this is true for for a lot of stuff, not just wine or glass. You know, you have a manufacturer, they say, Hey, this is what we think you want. And this was what makes us different than our other competitors. What do you think, by it, here's why it's good. We haven't had as much of the other direction where we go to a supplier and say, hey, look, this is what I need. I need this, I need this, I need this. This is what I'm looking for. And a lot of times we do that, when we're talking about specifics in terms of like, I need a certain kind of mold, I need a certain kind of, you know, look, or I need certain kind of price. But we go back and say hey, we also need some assurances about, you know, what the carbon footprint of this is? Can you tell me where it came from? Can you tell me how it was made? You know, can you give me something so they can make some comparisons? I think is really is a really good point. on your part. We just talked about glass wood, what's maybe the number two area you think that people could put some energy into, pardon the pun,

Brianna Beighle 17:37

Put some renewable energy into it.

Craig Macmillan 17:40

Out some renewable energy Exactly. Yeah.

Brianna Beighle 17:43

It would also be like we talked about kind of reducing your site energy and making that more renewable. That'd be the next again, low hanging fruit. But there's also a lot of other things that we can try and incorporate that are a little bit easier. I've got like this like flow of of some aspects in my head that we can all do. And again, some of these are kind of conflicting hard and easy, like another one is leaving as much green as you can on your properties. If you're if you're a vineyard owner, or if you're a winery, because any biomass that you have out there, there's growth as much well, depending on the plant, there's growth in the ground, just like there is up top, and that growth eventually will be incorporated into the soil. I'm not saying that that's their solution for everything. Like we have to do more than plant trees, because we've torn down trees, and we pulled from the ground. But that's one thing that we can all do. But again, that's kind of conflicting for folks who till everything, like that's a hard change for them. For those of us that are already into thinking about cover cropping and you have your sheep, that's easy. So that's something that's a hard and easy. Another one is how we think about, like we said, our nitrogen use, that's again, that's it 17% of the emissions for is from the vineyard. And again, that's a supplier and buyer issue, depending on your your company structure as well, if you're in the vineyard, or if you're in the winery and you're buying fruit, it's a conversation about about nitrogen use. And I will say from a from a crop standpoint, we're actually very good compared to other crops. Most everybody does. Bloom petiole samples, verasion petiole samples, and we use that to guide our applications. At the same time, there's still new products out there that could really help us to narrow this down. Because even though I know some of you do your samples, I know you also just add some canned 17 or cn nine to the amount that you think feels right.

Craig Macmillan 19:37

It's true. I mean, there is a gut feeling thing that's also involved, you know, I mean, you're you're right, we are very lucky that grape vines are not super nitrogen hungry, like other crops, which gives us the opportunity to have that as a lower risk, but still an important one.

Brianna Beighle 19:55

To branch off of that too. We also do a good job in the fact that we apply our nitrogen at different points. So the we're not doing one big shot. So if you are someone who does like one big shot and I turn, you get your big fat fertigation, I would suggest evening those out because you are giving a lot at one time for the microbes to break down and your plant isn't going to be able to pick it up in a good rate. So if you space it out, what you do is it takes the microbes a second to like get themselves going, and it takes your vine a second to get going. So like, let them do that in balance. And also, if you kind of break things up, then you don't get as much soil saturation. And that's when our nitrous oxide microbes really forced. So I'd also like to point out too, that Davis is developing a remote multi spectral sensing tool, which I believe right now is targeted more towards table grapes. I don't know if they've really branched out and that's to check the nitrogen status of our field to see where we can make those applications. And I know that there's also kind of remote sensing going in sprayers too. So this is me just like imagining something in the future where we've got our spectral and it says like, right now what we apply our nitrogen via one irrigation line, I'm not saying put polyline out everywhere, and we've got 20 Polly's just to get nitrogen out. But like, we can do foliar applications of things based on that with the sprayers that are calibrated in to be spatially recognized. Like, I'm not the trickiest of people. But like that does give me jazz a little bit. And it's not going to be the solution for everybody. But it's going to be a solution for some and that matters.

Craig Macmillan 21:24

Yeah, resolution, and targeted. Where do I go to get the science I need to make intelligent science based decisions? We've been talking about things a little bit in the abstract. But let's say I'm really serious about a topic. So where did where do you go? What what do you think are sources that are useful? On any go on any topic, you could go any direction you want, we're gonna.

Brianna Beighle 21:47

I'm one of those I say proudly, one of those nerds who really like scientific papers. And I'd say right now one of my main sources is actually one of my professors who's at Haas, he, he lives here in Napa Valley, just like I do, his wife have their own property. So we kind of like geek out on really, he sends me a lot of papers. And I've actually recently found some of my own, so we exchanged those. So I'd say we're so lucky in this age that we live in where we have access to so much research at our fingertips. So I would implore everyone to just look for a qualified paper online. I know that's not everyone's bite sized little morsel that makes things easy, but that's what I do. For example, I'd really like to call out an article done by the Journal of cleaner production. So this article is called, it's a long one. So hold on, hold out with me, soil organic carbon sequestration rates in vineyard, agro ecosystems under different soil management practices, and the important part a meta analysis.

Craig Macmillan 22:51

Oh, my God, I am, my heart is pitter patter, like, I need I want that I need to read that. I'm not being silly. I mean, like, that's, I've been waiting for that. Right? You know, we were talking about what was only done in Italy, and there was only done a greener building, or it's like, Well, how about this, you know?

Brianna Beighle 23:07

Exactly. And that's, that's what makes it important is like, the fact that it takes all these locations and then distills down, like, what's location specific to what actually matters. So I'd really recommend everyone to read that paper. Outside of that, like I said, I've really just, I've just been googling, finding all that I can, there's so many resources out there that were unaware. I know that, for example, the IWCA has some resources out there.

Craig Macmillan 23:35

Who's the IWCA?

Brianna Beighle 23:36

International wineries, for climate action. Sorry to throw acronyms without defining them down?

Craig Macmillan 23:42

No, that's all right. That's one that a lot of us haven't heard.

Brianna Beighle 23:45

They are a collection of wineries that are coming together to try and create a membership tiers for kind of emissions. And based on the amount of onsite energy production that you have, I'd say I'm not the expert in these guys. I'm really actually not an expert in any of the certifications. I'll say that flat out, like we kind of talked about, I'm coming from the kind of science analytical side and these folks are too. So I say use them as a resource. But also take a grain of salt if you see a study that only mentions one property, and that property seems really out there. That's why things like this meta analysis are really are really important and, and look at kind of like the scientific, I like to use universities and research institutions. That's just me because I know that there is a peer reviewed process for their research. And so I have a lot of trust in those. So while a lot of these websites for sustainability certificates, have good references, they may have a lot of resources. I always go to the hard science, but again, that's just the way that my brain works. For those of you who might need bite size, I'd say I had to maybe maybe SIP, Sustainability in Practice.

Craig Macmillan 24:57

Thank you. Yeah, and I would like to kind of underline that there's, there's amazing amount of stuff that's out there. That's really good quality and is not necessarily expensive. There's ResearchGate, a lot of folks will put their work up on there some things on Science Direct or free, others are not.

Brianna Beighle 25:15

I think of that. So meta analysis, I believe that's on Science Direct. And

Craig Macmillan 25:19

Then something that I've learned again, because we kind of get I kind of opened my mind. This is a while back. But you know, farming in Texas might have more to do with forming California than one might think. And the research that somebody is doing in the Finger Lakes region may have more applications to your your vineyards in Italy than you might think. And so there's really great extension services around the United States that have enology and viticulture specialists. Now, there's nothing wrong with going outside your home area, as not just California, if you're working in New York, you can look all over the place. Those folks not only are they doing, I mean, they're doing the science, but they're also doing applied science. So they're looking at things that growers or, or winemakers are dealing with. But they're also part of their mission is to translate it to an audience that needs it. So you don't always have to find yourself in the weeds knee deep in technical jargon. But it is good to follow that stuff. The other thing I would encourage folks, if you're afraid of reading a scientific paper, which I hope that you're not, if there's a word that you don't know, just keep reading, that's how I learned how to do it. Just don't stop read, just keep going and then get to the end, or read the introduction and read the conclusion and then go from there.

Brianna Beighle 25:28

Even the nerd that I read the introduction in the conclusion, sometimes it might be cheating, but I think it puts you in the context to think about and think about it in the right way.

Craig Macmillan 26:36

Yeah, when I when I got my training that was we were taught to write that way. Write the introduction in the conclusion first, and then write the rest of whatever it is that you're working on. Seemed a little backward, but it was like no, this is this is what people are gonna read, first of all, and secondly, you need to know your starting you need to know where you're going. Most of these academics are trained to write like that. So you can get a lot of information without having to get too crazy. If there's one takeaway, if there's one thing, one piece of advice, or one resource or one idea, one thing that you would tell growers and winemakers and managers have all sorts around this topic of carbon footprint greenhouse gas emission reduction, what would it be?

Brianna Beighle 27:13

The one thing that I would say is we have all created climate change. We are all part of climate change, whether that's in our personal lives, whether that's in our business lives, that doesn't mean that we should run away with it with fear. That means we have the power to create progress, and we just need to make the decision to do it. So I will leave it on your hands to find the way that you can make an impact.

Craig Macmillan 27:41

That's fantastic. Thank you so much. Our guest today has been Brianna Biegley. She is assistant winemaker at Patz & Hall Wine Company and she's an MBA student in the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley, working with a focus on sustainability. Thank you so much for being here.

Brianna Beighle 27:54

Thank you. This was wonderful.

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Once we learned that storytelling helps customers understand your sustainable practices and can increase your sales, we’ve been dedicated to helping you:

Throughout 2023, we’ve helped you write your Sustainable Story, teach your team about it, and share tips on how to integrate your sustainable message into every level of your branding and marketing.

As the year comes to an end, we’ve put all 7 tips together for you!

Make sure you check out the show notes for this one. We have linked to each article so that you can dive into the details and keep sharing your good work in the market.

Does your staff know about sustainability?

Did you know that of the 48% of employees in the food and beverage industry who receive regular training, only 4.5% receive training about their company’s mission and values?

If you aren't regularly talking to your staff about your company's mission and values, you're missing out on opportunities to create a more informed and dedicated team!

Click here to learn about the latest SIP Certified training tool to teach your staff how to talk about your dedication to sustainability.

Share your message of sustainability on your website.

There are so many ways to share your message of sustainability through your website.

Click here to get inspired by three SIP Certified members who dedicate an entire page on their website to their commitment sustainability, and three more who use their blog to sprinkle in their message of sustainability throughout the year.

Update your tasting room sign!

Your tasting room guests can learn about your commitment to the 7 Values of SIP Certified while they sit and sip in your tasting room when they see the new SIP Certified tasting room sign.

You can visit the Member Resources page to print yours today!

Use the power of visuals to tell your story.

97% of people start their search for a local business online. When someone looks up your business, what do they find?

Are your images and videos up to date? Do you show what makes your brand special? Does your imagery convince searchers to visit you?

If those questions gave you some uncertainty, it may be time to update your imagery!

Get sustainable on social media.

Now that the previous tip inspired your new photography, use this one to create valuable and pause-worthy social media content!

3 steps to create a sustainable QR Tour your guests will love.

A Sustainable QR Tour is a unique, educational, self-guided way for your guests to learn about your brand’s sustainable practices.

When you create your Sustainable QR Tour, you will:

Showcase your sustainable attractions.
Explain each attraction with a short video or quick written description.
Bring your tour to life by posting your QR codes and making a map.

By taking your Sustainable QR Tour, your visitors will:

Learn about your brand’s values.
See sustainability in action.
Enjoy an activity as they taste your sustainable wines.

Click here to learn the 3 steps to creating your very own.

The best newsletter you can send.

Your wine club members are more than just wine enthusiasts – they’re YOUR WINE’S enthusiasts!

They are invested in and have a personal connection with your brand.

Click here to learn how to use your newsletter to invite your members to form an even deeper affinity with your brand.

Your story can be featured in next year’s Sustainable Stories campaign! We are looking for a brand with an innovative approach to one of these three values.:

Water Management
Safe Pest Management
Energy Efficiency

If you have a great Sustainable Story, we will help you tell it. Reach out to me at whitney@vineyardteam.org with a few quick notes!

We’ll get your story ready to be featured in our newsletter, podcast, online course, and social media, and in magazine articles and influencer campaigns.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Smart Training online course * Sustainable Story | Print * Sustainable Story | Electronic * The Best Newsletter You Can Send * What's your Sustainable Story? * Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured

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Extreme weather events can be devastating to a winegrowing region's infrastructure, business, and in the worst-case scenarios, human life. Emma Taylor, Viticulture Consultant with Emma Taylor Viti is part of New Zealand’s Cyclone Gabrielle recovery team, helping winegrape farmers in the Hawke’s Bay region.

When the cyclone hit in February 2023 just before grape harvest, flood waters reached over the top of many vineyards destroying bridges, leaving behind massive silt deposits, uprooting entire plantings, and cutting off power for one week. Growers had to evaluate how to handle their losses based on total damage, potential fruit contamination, and vineyard lifespan. A vital component of the recovery effort is the knowledge and experience of viticulturists who farmed in the region during Cyclone Bola in 1988.

Resources: * 2: The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management * 79: Grapevine Fungal Diseases * 103: Environmental, Social, & Governance Initiative in Spain’s Priorat Region * 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light * Cyclone Gabrielle Relief Fund * Downy Mildew (Plasmopara viticola) * Emma Taylor on LinkedIn * Hawke’s Bay Wine New Zealand * How lessons learned from Cyclone Bola can help deal with the aftermath of Cyclone Gabrielle

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And with us today is Emma Taylor. She is viticultural consultant with Emma Taylor Viti in New Zealand. And today we're going to be talking about the terrible impacts that cyclone Gabrielle had on the North Island of New Zealand. And thank you for being your guests taking time and sharing your story with us.

Emma Taylor 0:14

Nice to meet you and talk to you, Craig.

Craig Macmillan 0:16

First, I want to express my sympathies to everyone in the North Island in New Zealand overall for the loss of life and tremendous devastation of property. A lot of folks were unhoused injured as well as fatalities. And we're all very saddened by the event.

Emma Taylor 0:33

Thanks for that. It was it was quite biblical in nature, we call it you know, it was it was quite extreme.

Craig Macmillan 0:39

Yeah. It was quite extraordinary. Well, first of all, what was the cyclone? What was what was the story there.

Speaker 2 0:45

So it was an extratropical cyclone. That's common to New Zealand that we do get so tropical cyclones form up in the higher in the Pacific normally around the islands. By the time they get to New Zealand, they've normally decreased in intensity to the point that they are now regarded as extratropical cyclone. And that is the same with cyclone Gabrielle when the MetService started bringing up you know, they bring up these tropical cyclones in this hour, there's one to watch. And I remember when I first heard the announcement that tropical cyclone Gabriel was forming. And I remember the way that the MetService were talking about it. And I remember thinking this sounds like it could be a biggie you know, it's been a while but it's the way that they're talking about it. They're just preparing us in a slightly different way to the other extratropical cyclones. Cyclone Gabriel, it came on our horizon, you know, as one to watch maybe about a week to 10 days before it landed.

Craig Macmillan 1:39

Okay, so there was people were aware of something was coming.

Emma Taylor 1:43

Something was coming. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 1:44

How close to harvest were vineyards when the cyclone hit. In

Emma Taylor 1:48

New Zealand in the last few years, we have been having our harvest seasons coming earlier in earlier that a climate change thing. Most likely they I used to say that harvest and Hawke's Bay started a little bit at the start of March, but you're really into it by the 20th of March. And by the 20th of April, you're over. And then you'd have a few rats and mice after then yeah, so that the 20th of March the 20th of April was hardest in the last few years. It's that chunk of time has been getting earlier and earlier to the point that in the 2022 Vintage everything was picked before we even got to April however, the 23 Vintage I remember commenting, maybe only a week before topical cyclone Gabrielle came that it looked like we're a bit more normal. And instead of a February start to have us I was hoping for a March start to harvest. However, you know, Gabrielle came on the 14th of February and we were harvesting nine days later.

Craig Macmillan 2:47

That's what I was gonna ask was how close to harvest were vineyards. When the cyclone hit? What are the varieties that are most common in that area?

Emma Taylor 2:54

The largest planted variety in Hawke's Bay is Sauvignon Blanc and Ginsburg however, that's because New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc right microclimates of Hawke's Bay and Brisbane and due to their warmer than what Marlboro is in both regions, there's a decent amount of Chardonnay, and Hawke's Bay, especially, we have some red variety. So we have Syrar and Merlot, Cabernet, that are grown, especially on the government gravels, which is a very stony appellation that we have here mainly Sauv Blanc, good amount of Chardonnay, and then the other little bits and pieces.

Craig Macmillan 3:27

Now, what I'm amazed by is that you mentioned you were harvesting nine days later. So there were vineyards in some of the harder hits areas that could still be harvested.

Emma Taylor 3:35

When the cyclone hit it was the range of destruction based on where you were and how close to a river or how close to a stop meant that breached you. The vineyards that were harvested initially were the ones that might have been flooded, but the water receded pretty quickly in most instances. And we were able to get in and harvest though. So the fruit did not like being submerged in water. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 4:01

No, not at all. In the floodwaters if I understand in some cases reached as high as the fruit zone.

Emma Taylor 4:07

Oh, yeah. And over over the top of vineyards. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 4:11

Wow. Oh, my God, and then it receded quickly. And then obviously there will be an issue with getting in after that.

Emma Taylor 4:19

Yes. And there's two kinds of issues with getting and there was access to the vineyard and the sense that in some instances this a few were along the Ngaruroro river. So there was three main rivers that you're probably going to hear me talk about in this the Esk valley, the to Tūtaekurī and Ngaruroro, and the Hawke's Bay, we have more vineyards along the Ngaruroro than anything, any of the other two, which is fortunate given the events that happened but if you were along the Ngaruroro and you were flooded, you didn't have a silt deposit, which is what you know, then became something that people had to manage with. So if you were along the Ngaruroro you were flooded, and then the water receded, and so your issue was accessing a Vinyard. which has been completely flooded. And so you can imagine there might be a little bit of mud and stuff like that, although, to be honest, a lot of alluvial gravels in that area as well, but also accessing the vineyard because a lot of the bridges had been washed out.

Craig Macmillan 5:12

Oh, right.

Emma Taylor 5:14

In the region like 60 bridges or something had or had been washed out. And clearly the priority was to get the bulk of people moving, rather than access to a remote vineyard. That makes sense. So that became an issue for people as well. The infrastructure damage.

Craig Macmillan 5:30

I'm guessing, because we're talking about New Zealand, we're talking about machine harvesting.

Emma Taylor 5:34

Yeah, that point was predominantly machine harvesting. I mean, there was there's always a little bit of hand harvesting, that happens. And there was there was a hand harvesting that happened on blocks that have been flooded. I'm not sure that there was to tell you the truth, I'm sure. I think it was all pretty much machine harvested.

Craig Macmillan 5:50

What do you do with fruit that has had floods, silts contact? That's that's something that I have never imagined in my wildest nightmares. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Because my understanding is that some that at least some of that fruit was usable?

Emma Taylor 6:08

Yes. For a lot of people, you have to realize that a lot of people that were affected were growers, like ma and pa growers, we'd call them you know, private growers. And they have spent all their money, you know, they have, you know, what the seasons like you spend all your money on or you're pruning, you're spraying you're mowing your hand work. And they were in that point, just before harvest where you're not spending any money, and you're just waiting for the grapes to ripen. And then harvest until you get your paycheck for a lot of our members and some of our wine companies. The motivation was just to be able to give these growers some income so that they could continue. Yeah. So you know, they've clearly lost some of their crops. And so how can we have this what we can it's something that's been flooded the big thing that for other horticultural products that you have to worry about is E. coli contamination because you don't know what's in the floodwaters. Fortunately, because we're making wine, there's lots of international research that shows that E. coli dies in alcohol, MPI, which is our Ministry for Primary Industries over here they released with New Zealand winegrowers, they released a statement that said, you could have as grapes for the production of wine, as long as you had assess the risk. They were worried not only about E. coli, or, although it wasn't a big issue, but agro chemical contamination because the floodwaters had just destroyed chemical sheds on vineyards and washed through and they were worried about hydrocarbon contamination because diesel tankers and and they were just worried about anything else that could have been in that water. What we did discover though, and so we did a lot of testing pre harvest and post harvest is that while you know, the fuel Bowser that was sitting in your vineyard has gone, you don't know where it is, the volume of water that was flowing was so great compared to the potential risk of contaminants that there wasn't anything to worry about.

Craig Macmillan 8:04

That is good news. A true obviously, you've mentioned this in many videos, this tremendous amounts of silt were deposited, which leads to a number of possible issues. Also, I saw pictures of trellises and vines that had been knocked completely over. How are growers recovering from this? Are they trying to move silt down? Are they trying to reset the floors? What happens if you have silt layers higher than the graft union?

Emma Taylor 8:30

There are so many issues and there's no one single way to solve them as every situation is, you know, as often the case, like I was mentioning the East Valley and the Tūtaekurī rivers, there was a lot of salt deposits, and some vineyards were completely buried. So once the flood water receded, you couldn't see the vineyard anymore. We called those catastrophic vineyards. They are catastrophically affected, they needed to think about what they were now going to do with those that land use. For those ones in one regard, it's easy, because you're not saying to them, you can recover your vines. You're saying, Okay, you no longer have a vineyard, but for the ones that were in between. So they had a silt deposit, but it wasn't catastrophic. So there's two parts. Your question here that I think I'm asking is the ones that had the silt deposit, but it might have been above the graft union. And so we then urged those growers to contemplate the lifecycle of the vineyard and where they were sitting. So is the vineyard getting towards the end of its life, say 20 to 25 years old, because in New Zealand, especicially Sauvignon Blanc vineyards we manage very hard for trunk disease, but can 30 years old or so a vineyard will have a lot of trunk because they've done it. So if your vineyard was 20 years old, and you probably only had 10 years of useful life yet. We were saying you could probably leave that salt and place it flatten it out to the point that you can now grow on it but you can leave that because you're probably We'll get you we'll get scion rooting. But the phylloxera will take a while to reinvest in the vineyard, the roots of your original vine is still there, the scion roots have to take over the phylloxera has defined, you've probably got seven to 10 years before you're even seeing the first signs of phylloxera damage on your vignette.

Craig Macmillan 10:17

And there is phylloxera in those areas?

Emma Taylor 10:20

Because 95% of vineyards in New Zealand on grafted rootstock, we don't know. We have not studied phylloxera in New Zealand for a long time.

Craig Macmillan 10:32

That's a good thing because I was afraid I was gonna have to apologize on the part of all growers in North America for going back going back to the 1790s, or whatever it was.

Emma Taylor 10:41

We love the American rootstocks. Yeah, you American rootstocks? Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 10:45

Well, I don't think America can take credit for everything. I think the French and the Germans and the Italians have all done a great job to,

Emma Taylor 10:52

We don't know what the phylloxera status is, we have the the vineyard and goods board that I know about that is on its own roots. And it's, I don't know, 30 years old and still going strong. And then there was a nursery and Bisborn that was trying that tried to put its mother vines on own roots to try and keep the integrity of the plant. And they started seeing phylloxera in that planting seven to 18 years after planting. So we know it's still there. What we did discover throughout this whole process is that phylloxera research has kept continuing overseas, especially in Australia. And there's lots of species of phylloxera and we don't even know what species we've got. Because we haven't done a survey for the last surveys in New Zealand were done in the 80s I think it is.

Craig Macmillan 11:36

Talking about catastrophic losses, is there an estimate of like what percentage of some of those areas or what how many, or how many hectares were lost completely?

Emma Taylor 11:46

So there's about 4000 to 5000 hectares and holes, and depending on how people are choosing to manage and it's still coming out as, as we come through the season, there's about 300 hectares that we think will be lost completely. So it's not a huge amount in terms of the region, but it's one of those things, you know, it's a different scale of damage that you've had. And for some people, it means that they just lost the vintage from 2023. And now they're moving forward. But for the people that are the catastrophic so as the one you know, everyone's recovery is at different stages, depending on the scale of the damage and those that are worse affected obviously are still in a recovery phase with those that are were affected but not so badly. They've you know, got to the point they've prune the vines they're looking for forward to bad break this year. And it's it's move on and forget that cyclone.

Craig Macmillan 12:37

When would bud break be expected.

Emma Taylor 12:38

I saw bud break last week. Oh, wow. No, it's too early.

Craig Macmillan 12:44

Of course, it's too early No, but like, just just as a time point, it is August 8 2023. Today, which is your early spring.

Emma Taylor 12:53

So when to really the ski season is in full swing down here in New Zealand, we had a bout of warm weather, which got some the set flows going and a little bit of early bad breakout and Bayview. But we've now into some beautiful frosty morning and blue sky days. So that'll slow things down. You're saying it's the ninth of August. So hopefully, it'll be the end of August before we see too much more about movement.

Craig Macmillan 13:20

We're talking about Sauvignon Blanc, Sauvignon Blanc very prone to Botrytis and other fungal diseases. I'm not sure what your fungal disease situation is like where you are. Was that was that an issue? Was there a big explosion and fungal problems with that nine or 10 or 14 days before you get in?

Emma Taylor 13:36

Actually, so one of the issues we had in Hawke's Bay this year, and especially, you're talking about Sauvignon Blanc, but I suppose and other varieties, which was more more prevalent was we had downy mildew, we've not really experienced a lot of downy mildew in New Zealand. So whereas this year, I did see canopies that were completely defoliated. And partly that was a response to what when the cyclone happened and those first 10 days after the cyclone. We were still in a state of emergency, the bridges were down, communication was down because the cellphone towers all went out power was down for Napier, which is the urban environment that was down for a week and so people couldn't get on if your vineyard was a later ripening variety. So a Sauvignon Blanc or or red, Chardonnays earlier if your vineyard was a later ripening variety you couldn't get on and do some of those last protective sprays that showed in some of the canopies.

Craig Macmillan 14:34

I worked in the Central Coast California and I've only seen Downy Mildew once and it was it was amazing. It was really scary does tremendous damage and quickly that's the other thing downy mildew can strike and really do a lot of damage really fast. What about vines that were knocked over, or those vines salvageable. Can you push them back up?

Emma Taylor 14:53

Yeah, you can and this depends on how much silt you have. So if they got bent over and then there was a lot of silt that was a little bit trickier. But if they were bent over and you might needed to replace your posts, then that happened and those vines are actually that was where there was a little bit of hand picking that happened to tell you the truth. Yeah, they were salvageable. So get in quick, lift them back up again. And nets it we found that Vinyard nets, they often acted like a giant sail. If you were perpendicular to the river with a net on, you're almost guaranteed to be flattened.

Craig Macmillan 15:28

And so I'm guessing that that work started right away. And then there probably were vines that were just completely ripped out at the root.

Emma Taylor 15:35

Vines that were completely ripped out tangled mess with the nets, the posts, the wire, the irrigation. And so actually dealing with the waste of that became a big issue because we don't like burning waste in New Zealand. We only like to recycle. Telling someone that that big mess of nets and posts and wire you need to sort through and pull it out for recycling. That wasn't

Craig Macmillan 15:57

No Yeah, no, that's a really difficult thing to do. There's no doubt about it. And then if it's an older vineyard, and if it was twisted around the cordon and wire then can't chip it and on and on and on and on and on. This is not the first I'll call it a super cyclone that's hit before. In 1988 There was a Cyclone Bola and it also did tremendous damage to vineyards I understand as well as property in human life.

Emma Taylor 16:24

Yes, and that cyclone and it hit slightly further north. So Bisborn was worse affected than Hawke's Bay, and back then in 1988, Bisborn one was New Zealand's largest wine growing region, and that hit later hit March. Oh, it really March. Sorry, the dates just elude me now. But it hit early March. So the vines were further closer to vintage. Yeah, had a had a very catastrophic, catastrophic effect. But it was 35 years ago. And it's amazing how much we had forgotten.

Craig Macmillan 16:57

That's what I was going to ask were there lessons that were learned?

Emma Taylor 17:00

What I've since you know, what I said, to add a grower meeting the other day of what we've learned is a cyclone is a cyclone and actually, some of the damage was pretty similar in some of the things that we're having to deal with in cyclone Gabriel, we had to deal with in cyclone Bola. Cyclone Bola in the 1980s. It was very much especially in New Zealand and mentality, we just got on and did it. And there wasn't a lot of reflection afterwards about what worked and what didn't work. And there was certainly no record keeping. After 35 years, one of the first things we did is that we called all together on a Zoom, all of the viticulturists that were around, in Bola. And we said can you remember what you did? And actually getting them together on a team's call was one of the best things we could have done. And because they feed off each other now that's right, we did this and yeah, so it was a different slightly different time. You know, because harvesters in 1988 weren't four wheel drive where they are now. And they were towing harvesters through vineyards to try and get the fruit off.

Craig Macmillan 18:02

Is that turning into outreach to growers today?

Emma Taylor 18:07

Lessons learned from Bola became a factsheet that was distributed to members. I think we managed to get it out nine days after the cyclone we had a grower meeting, we handed out to them and said this is what happened in Bola. We can't guarantee that this is exactly what's going to happen this time. Because the 1988 Bisborn, I think the largest variety planted was Monukka. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we didn't have the rootstocks in New Zealand like we had back then. And all that kind of stuff. So we're like, we can't guarantee this is what's going to happen. And to tell you the truth, we're going to be monitoring this spring, just to see if our predictions that the vines will be okay. Fingers crossed, is correct, because it's what happened in Bola. But everything else that we learned from those people, from those viticulturalists from Bola has happened so far. And so that was a very worthwhile thing to do.

Craig Macmillan 18:57

You mentioned we, who's we?

Emma Taylor 18:59

So the New Zealand winegrowers got funding from the government. Not not not a lot of funding but funding from the government straightaway, to get a group of viticultural experts together. And we went round, and I was lucky to be part of this and we would go around to the growers and visit them and, and help them out and, and give them ideas or just listen to them really just to reach out and see that they were okay. It was a very interesting process, because at the start, the people that wanted to see us were the ones that were flooded and they weren't sure if they could pick. It was definitely the first lot of visits were definitely focusing on what we could still harvest what we could still salvage any income we could get for the grower. And then the second stage was the people that couldn't harvest but they knew the vines were going to be okay for this vintage and it was how to manage those to best prepare them for the season. Next season. And then the last lot of visits we did were the catastrophic owners. That links So how the individual growers were coping with the stresses as well, at the time, it was a really good support to provide to the growers.

Craig Macmillan 20:09

That is so important. And I'm very happy to hear that folks immediately went back to the, what we call embodied knowledge. You know, it's experience, I lived this and it's vivid, some of its vivid, some of its not, but that I lived this and then being able to share that, and then being able to continue that process forward. Because you now have been really, really good about connecting with the community. And everybody's learning from that, you know, you're having that you're having that translation of experience now across all kinds of folks. And that's just absolutely critical. And I think it's fantastic. And I hope that that kind of thing continues for all kinds of things. I mean, we have that we have that with all kinds of pest issues as well. Sometimes the best thing to do is just get a bunch of growers together. Tailgate meetings and conferences and coffee meetings, we've we've had a number where it's just show up at Joe's diner, and we'll just talk about whatever you know, and it is really beneficial.

Emma Taylor 21:07

It is. One hundred percent agree and it's part of that very expert group says exactly what what are the series was we called them, shed had meetings, and they were located in all the different sub regions, and people could just come along, we feed them and we gave them drinks and just that connection.

Craig Macmillan 21:23

Food helps bring people out. I've learned that, If there was one thing one takeaway from this whole experience for growers around the world we have we have listeners from all over, what would it be what what one insight, idea piece of advice observation would you have.

Emma Taylor 21:40

Because it had been 35 years since we had had cyclone Bola in New Zealand. And I don't know if this is globally, but in New Zealand, we had got a little bit relaxed about areas that might be deemed as flood prone or have a risk of some sort. That is because for the most part in New Zealand, we deal with drought. You know, two, three years ago, if we've just had three kind of wet seasons prior to that, if you had to talk to any grower one of the big concerns, they would have said water, we're we're worried we can't get enough water. And so we had got a little bit relaxed about some of our planting places. After looking at the cyclone. I still think some of these places, they are still good for planting. But be cunning and be intelligent about how you plant if you're planting close to a river, plant with the river, not perpendicular to it, put your frost machines on plants, bury your irrigation don't have a very expensive shed down there. Keep your tractors and equipment on high ground. Some of them are the best soils, right, which is why we're tempted to plant on them. Because yeah, it's right. But be be wise, when you're doing the investment, that would be one of the things that I would say.

Craig Macmillan 23:01

Yeah, so this kind of thing is just another factor to take into account when you're designing a vineyard.

Speaker 2 23:07

Yes. And if it's only once every 40 years, it makes it a little bit harder to remember. Yeah, because we've certainly had planted on areas that had been destroyed and Bola, and they leave, they will leave fallow for a few years while people were like, oh, you know, they were hit by the site. And then all of a sudden someone's like, oh, that's some pretty cheaply. And I can put a vignette in via and then the venue does well. And so therefore it raises the prices of the land and everyone plants and we forgot.

Craig Macmillan 23:28

Well, I want to thank you for your time. And thank you for sharing your story. We wanted to talk to you because this kind of thing is probably going to happen again, in other parts of the world. So it might have been 40 years between those storms, there may be major storms coming to other places. Doesn't hurt anybody to kind of think about that as a possibility. I mean, we have as growers, we have plenty to keep us up at night already. But it is something to think about.

Emma Taylor 23:54

Yeah, I 100% agree. And even looking at how this impact of Cyclone Gabriel was further down in New Zealand, you know, into Hawke's Bay more than Bisborn just shows that that's the trend that's happening, isn't it? Climate is changing. And so it doesn't take long to think gosh, that'll just go a bit further south and it could have happened in Marlboro. So that's the same I agree with you about it'll happen in other regions of the world too.

Craig Macmillan 24:18

Well, I want to thank our guest, Emma Taylor, viticultural consultant with Emma Taylor Viti, thanks for being on the podcast, Emma.

Emma Taylor 24:24

You're welcome. Nice to talk to you, Craig.

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Your wine club members are more than just wine enthusiasts – they’re YOUR WINE’S enthusiasts!

They are invested in and have a personal connection with your brand.

Newsletters invite your members to form an even deeper affinity with your brand. It's an opportunity to share your brand’s history, current projects, and behind-the-scenes details that aren’t available through other channels.

Need Content? You Got It!

A multi-page newsletter gives you more space to work with. While the idea of having several pages to fill and decorate can be exciting to some, others may be intimidated by the task.

Being a brand that’s passionate about sustainability means you always have something to talk about. Having a handful of Sustainable Stories on deck can be a great asset to your newsletter!

SIP Tip: Adjust the amount of detail you go into to fit the space you have. For longer pieces, consider breaking them up into serials.

Today we will share two examples of SIP Certified members whose newsletters feature their dedication to sustainability in engaging ways. There are some great images to go along with these, so I highly recommend going to the show notes and clicking on The Best Newsletter You Can Send.

Ancient Peaks Ancient Peaks invites their members to understand their deep relationship with the land and their community through their May 2021 newsletter’s Feature Story, For the Love of Land & Community.

The article shows how and why Ancient Peaks embodies sustainability through colorful photos and specific examples that touch all 7 SIP Certified Values.

A QR code on page 4 of the excerpt transforms this newsletter into a multi-media experience! Readers can scan the code to watch a thoughtful explanation from the ranch’s owner, Doug Filipponi, on what sustainability is and how they address all three legs of the three-legged stool.

Niner Wine Estates Their Spring 2023 newsletter opens with A Note from Winemaker Patrick Muran, giving readers the sense that their shipment was crafted with love and devotion from the entire team at Niner Wine Estates.

After providing a rundown of the wines included in their shipment, Niner announces their 2023 Green Medal Sustainability Leadership Award. They explain what the award is, and provide several specific examples of their sustainable practices.

Several members of Niner’s team are featured in the newsletter, giving it a personable feel and inviting readers to become familiar with the faces behind the wine.

More Tips As you saw from these two examples, there are many ways to create a newsletter that’s unique and authentic to your brand.

Here are three elements both of these examples have in common:

Sustainability: Thoughtful “whys” and descriptive “hows” invite your readers to:

Make a deeper connection with your brand.
Better understand what it means to be sustainable.

Teamwork: Quotes and opinions from team members:

Give your newsletter a personable feel.
Familiarize your readers with your team.

Food and Wine: Pairing notes and recipes specific to the wines included in your shipment give:

Utility to your readers.
A reason to keep your newsletter around for longer!

What’s YOUR Sustainable Story? We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

We hope you’ve enjoyed learning about how your peers fulfill the 7 SIP Certified Values as much as we’ve enjoyed sharing them!

Your story can be featured in next year’s Sustainable Stories campaign! We are looking for a brand with an innovative approach to one of these three Values.:

Water Management
Safe Pest Management
Energy Efficiency

If you have a great Sustainable Story, we will help you tell it. Reach out to me at whitney@vineyardteam.org with a few quick notes!

We’ll get your story ready to be featured in our newsletter, podcast, online course, and social media, and in magazine articles and influencer campaigns.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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Since the time of the Dust Bowl, landowners have worked with Resource Conservation Districts (RCDs) to conserve water, improve soil, preserve natural habitat, and prevent erosion. However, it can take two to three years to secure funding to begin a sustainable initiative. Devin Best, Executive Director at the Upper Salinas-Las Tablas Resource Conservation District, and Michael Larcher, North American Solution Lead at cBrain have partnered on a new system that drastically decreases that timeframe by matching a grower’s land conservation needs with grants in a database.

Landowners can participate in the Sustainable Land Initiative by submitting a short form that includes their location, acres, and goals. Technical staff from the RCD will follow up with a sight visit to determine all potential conservation projects including healthy soils, cover cropping, beaver dam analogs, and carbon farm plans.

Through a database, the RCD can pull a report on all landowners interested in similar projects and connect them with funding and permitting. By aggregating data, the RCD can fund more growers, advise grant agencies on what conservation programs are most effective, and spend more time helping growers on the ground.

Resources: * Register 12/6/2023 | Prepare for 2024: CA DPR Changes, Bulk Wine Trends & Funding Sustainable Projects * 181: Can Applying Compost Reduce Water Use? * 122: Preserving Agriculture Land to Combat Climate Change * 58: Barn Owls * cBrain * Devin Best * Michael Larcher on LinkedIn * San Luis Obispo County Beaver Brigade * Sustainable Land Initiative * Upper Salinas-Las Tables Resource Conservation District

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And our guest today are Devin Best is executive director of the upper Salinas, las tablas Resource Conservation District. And Mike Larcher, who is a North American solutions and sustainability lead with a company called cBrain. And today we're going to be talking about a very interesting idea called the sustainable land initiative. Thank you both for being here. Thank you.

Devin Best 0:19

Thanks for having us.

Craig Macmillan 0:20

Actually, before we get into that, let's kind of set the stage for those folks that are not aware. Devin, can you tell us what is a resource conservation district?

Devin Best 0:28

Sure. So a resource conservation district is a non regulatory, nonprofit local organization that works with growers and local community to help provide resources and technical assistance for their management of natural resources.

Craig Macmillan 0:41

And there are RCDs throughout the state, correct?

Devin Best 0:44

That's correct. There's about 95 of us or so. And they're organized around watersheds, watershed political boundaries, sometimes county boundaries. So it there's a little bit of a mix of how they're organized, but they were formed out of the dust bowl er, and some of them have combined, so you might get a little bit of those sort of things. Originally, the idea was that a federal government had the Natural Resource Conservation Service. And that was a entity that was focused in on dealing with the Dust Bowl and how to help farmers with their resource issues, but they recognize that the federal government didn't really have the best working relationship with local growers. So they formed what was originally known as soil water conservation districts, and here in California, are called RCDs, resource conservation districts, primarily same sort of mission, but they're more directed towards not just water, but also other things as well. And so California, if you look, you'll see this sort of conglomeration of some our cities have combined like ours is upper Salinas and Los Talas, this was to our cities that combined to form one but our counties actually shared by two our cities, the other one is being Coastal San Luis, our city.

Craig Macmillan 1:43

And Mike, tell us what is cBrain? What does the brain do?

Mike Larcher 1:47

The C brain is a process company, we specialize in redesigning processes, typically for government agencies, to make them as efficient, effective and transparent as possible, so that the government can do the work and arrive at the appropriate decisions very quickly. And so citizens get better services.

Craig Macmillan 2:06

And you two are working together on this thing called the sustainable land initiative. Is that correct?

Devin Best 2:10

That's correct.

Craig Macmillan 2:11

Devin, what is that?

Devin Best 2:16

So that actually started with Michael coming into my office and saying, you know, I'm really interested in this beaver brigade and beaver dams, and how can I help to get more of those? And I said, Well, that's great. But I'm also working on this thing called the carbon farm plan. And I need to get more of them done. But it's really tough. They started talking a little bit more about like, what does it take to actually do a carbon farm plan? Why is it takes so long? Why is it so expensive? Why are people not, you know, sort of gravitating behind these things. And as I started explaining, to Michael and his company, how it works, it was really apparent that we, as RCD staff don't spend that much time actually working on the plant itself. Most of it is there's these stop gaps between when we meet with somebody, and when we actually get something done. either. It's funding permitting something staff turnover, sometimes whatever it may be. And Michael's company actually sort of dealt with this particular instance of how do we make sure that we sort of streamline that whole process from start to finish, and get it down to the bare sort of essential parts, but make sure that there's tracking things along the way. So the sustainable land initiative really just focused more on how can RCDs be better at when I meet with the landowner getting resources to them, and I'm not spending all this time chasing grants and looking for permits. And so the example I've been given people is if I was to go meet with the landowner, and they're asking about, let's say, cover crops in vineyard rows, and they're looking for funding for that, usually, I'd go look into CDFAs, you know, list of programs that they have grants and stuff. That's one landowner, and I'd have to write one grant, and I have to wait three to six months until we got announced if we got awarded or not wait for the contract, then the resources, it's so we're talking almost a year or two. And if there's permitting, you're almost talking three years from the day I meet them. That adds some long amount of time between when we meet and actually get something done. And that's not beneficial to the landowner. It's not really the best use of our time. And so we started looking at like, but that's just for cover crops, I might meet with that landowner and say, you know, actually see you have some riparian corridor stuff that we can be doing to and you know, you have an oak woodland, we actually have a program for that. Well, in that one hour to two hours, we might meet that landowner, we lose a lot of information, a lot of potential projects, because now I'm off chasing after the cover crop grant and say, I don't get it. Well, all those other projects sort of fell by the wayside. Well, what if we were able to take all that information, put it in a streamlined sort of database essentially, and then tie those things in and aggregate them with other landowners, so I might be able to say, hey, in addition to that one landowners interested in cover crops have 10 other people I know that are interested in the same thing. Now I'm applying for a larger grant for 10 people all at one time, rather than one and competing against the other. And if I see a grant for my period restoration, I I can combine those together. So it's taking a lot of that information we get in a short amount of time and put it in a place where we can make it the most useful.

Craig Macmillan 5:08

You are probably more likely to get funding when you can come to a funder and say, Hey, this is going to affect 10 properties is going to 1000 acres as opposed to one person, 100 acres, one person 100 acres, you know, and it's probably also going to increase the efficiency of the actual implementation, I would guess, because you set up your team to do whatever it is, and then you can do a lot of work.

Less administrative oversight. Yes.

Now, Mike, I want to go back the way that Devin made it sound was you were just walking down the street one day and said, Hey, look, there's a sign these guys look cool. I like beavers. And you just wandered in. And I very, very quickly the beaver brigade and whatnot. I'd like you just to touch on what that is. Because that's an interesting thing in and of itself. What brought you to Devin went right to the RCD.

Mike Larcher 5:52

Sure, I wasn't. I wasn't walking down the street. But I was driving. I I grew up here on the Central Coast. And I spent a long time away last couple of decades, actually, the pandemic silver lining was I got to start working remotely. And so I came back home was on my way to the MidState fair, my wife and we looked out the window and I said, I don't remember the river looking green and lush in the middle of summer. I know what's going on what's changed. And that was how I stumbled across the slo beaver brigade. So for those who don't know, this is a nonprofit organization focused on trying to bring back Beaver and educate people about the benefits that they create. And they do so much cool stuff. Both Beaver and the SLO beaver brigade. But they are they're known as what is a keystone creature that can create entire habitats that benefit farmers, as well as the biodiversity in the overall ecosystem by slowing the water down, helping to improve soil moisture, reconnect with the underground aquifers. I think I saw some statistics that round about 90% of species in California depend on these wetland habitats. And so the more that beaver started coming back, the more water that is available for fish habitat for agricultural purposes, etc.

Craig Macmillan 7:16

So you had an interest in this you knew about the importance of the Beaver? And then what brought you then to the RCD, you had an idea.

Mike Larcher 7:23

I started actually with a quick Google search. And I found a call a Cal Poly graduate student who had just done his graduate paperwork on land that was suitable for beaver habitat in and around San Luis Obispo County. And Devin was one of the supervisors overseeing that and providing advice. So we had an introduction I was very excited about about the beaver. And Devin said, Wait, I'm really excited about what you guys do, you can make things so much more efficient and effective. Let's talk about doing that for beaver. But let's do that next. And so our first conversation was, how do we help landowners spend more time in the fields and less time at a desk dealing with government bureaucracy, let's make it really easy for them.

Craig Macmillan 8:08

So the sustainable land initiative, this was the two of you having a conversation and this is your project. This is your idea.

Mike Larcher 8:13

It started with the two of us. But we actually had feedback from the Farm Bureau from landowners throughout the region, city, county officials, everyone coming together and realizing that everyone actually wants the same thing. landowners want to become more sustainable. They want to maintain the legacy of their land. They don't want to spend a ton of time dealing with government bureaucracy to make it happen. How do we make it really easy for landowners to do what they already want to do? And to connect them with the immense amount of funding sources that are out there.

Devin Best 8:44

And I think the one thing I'd add on to that was that when I go to my RCD counterparts, one thing we always talked about was the limitation of our capacity. It's always funding and permitting. And yet we spend all our time doing just that is going after funding and get trying to get permits. And so we're not being a resource to the local community. It's like we want to be we're sort of hindered by those two other processes. So when Michael came to me, it was like, Well, if I can make the ways, that we're getting more funding to us quicker, that's churning the way that we're moving that technical assistance more towards helping the farmers we're talking about, hey, I'm not waiting for this grant. But this is a cover crop, I think it's really good for you. What I think's really fascinating is because because as Michael said, we started got a lot of feedback from other people was that this turned in from just the two of us to really be brought in much broader we have Cal Poly involved. We have three other RCDs involved as well. We have a lot of other incident entities and organizations, NGOs, municipalities. And so we've quit calling it like so much of a program, but it's more of a platform.

When did this begin?

I think we launched in 2022.

Oh, wow. You've done a lot of work in a short period of time.

Yen-Wen Kuo 9:33

Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 9:33

This is October of 23. For listeners, as you've done this, you've talked to growers, you've talked to all these folks, what are the top priorities in terms of implementation, project practices that people have said, Hey, these are the things that we want to do, what are the things that seemed to be the most I don't want us popular, but were the most interest is

Devin Best 10:10

BDAs Beaver Dam Analogs. That's one of the big ones, which is not a standard practice with vendor NRCS or CDFA. Is this the climate smart agricultural practices, it's something that's still kind of out there and still new enough. And that's one of the reasons why this is working really well is we can go forward and have sustainable land initiative and be sort of that platform for us to go outside of that. Those are the list of practices, developed the tactic, goal practices, the actual techniques, the implementation, the funding, the monitoring, the ecological benefits, all that information that goes into feeding into those to make them a standard practice, we can do that, and still provide that information under SLI. So that when it does become a practice.

Craig Macmillan 10:51

I want to come to back to Mike. But one thing that I want to clarify, because I don't feel like people understand this, the National Resource Conservation Service has a list of conservation practices, they are numbers, much like the code that you'd get diagnosis code and hospital, everything is tracked by that. And if it's on the list, then you maybe find a place where you can fund it. And if it's not on the list, well, then you're not far as the federal level goes, which can make it kind of tricky beaver brigade. That was kind of what got you into this. I'm guessing it must be very gratifying that a lot of folks are now interested in the same thing. Two questions for you on this. First of all, what is a beaver dam analog? We know about the benefits, but how does it fit into this, this this process? You know, do we need permitting? How do we go about it? What are the costs? Like how do you find people that have land that want to do this? I mean, you had the graduate student that sounds like they did the mapping? How is this? how's this working?

Mike Larcher 11:53

Yeah. So a couple questions there. To start with, like what is a BDA? Do you remember when you were like four years old, and you wanted to put some rocks and sticks in a little creek or something and slow the water down and hold it up?

Craig Macmillan 12:06

Too old? I don't remember when. But 14, how about that? But yes, yes, I do. Remember? Yes.

Mike Larcher 12:12

I have a three and a five year old and they still love to do it at its core. That is what a BDA is, we're basically pretending to be little kids or beavers again, and you're slowing the water down the same thing that the beaver would have been doing if it was still in that area. And what that does is it holds the water in the watershed longer. And so it can actually recharge and go into the ground, it's incredibly low impact shouldn't have any negative environmental consequences. However, when you're talking about doing anything in a riparian corridor, or in California, it's going to involve eight permits, Sequa, from six different agencies at three levels of government

Craig Macmillan 12:58

SEQA, the California Environmental Quality Act, by the way, thanks.

Mike Larcher 13:01

So when you think of it that way to do something that a three year old would do, or a beaver would do on his own, is going to take $10,000 in permitting and three years. So that's one of the values of the sustainable land initiative is that we're trying to take an approach where we can aggregate this across property owners. And instead of permitting each individual one, we can actually go after this as a region or as a watershed. Devin, you want to add something to that?

Devin Best 13:27

I do. And then the point being is that as a practitioner, somebody that's actually having to go after and get these permits, they typically will permit one feature at a time. So if you're looking at Beaver Dam Analog, you can only do one feature one permit. And that takes three years, well, we're talking about doing hundreds to 1000s of BDAs. And so as an organization, we wouldn't be able to keep up with that level of detail and information and processing of data, to be able to relate that to the regulatory agencies and make sure that we're tracking all these things without something like the sustainable land initiative, which is what we have.

Craig Macmillan 14:02

And I think that's where you come in. So this is process and process tracking and process design. I'm guessing that's where your expertise would come into this, Mike.

Mike Larcher 14:12

Yes, that's right. So the way the sustainable land initiative works is that any landowner who is looking to adopt more sustainable practices or to find additional funding and would like the RCDs help, they would submit an intake form that takes no more than five minutes. They can do this from their mobile phone. I've we've even had people submit this while driving, which we do not recommend.

Craig Macmillan 14:34

Do not recommend.

Speaker 3 14:35

Don't recommend that no. If it's, if it's a long light, all you have to do is say here's where I live, how much acreage we have, what our vision and goals are for our property. And then RCD staff come out and say this is your vision. We will try and help connect you with funding and permitting to make that happen so that you don't have to spend time going after grants or going after an Dealing with permits yourself will do the heavy lifting. What my company does is we designed a process so that it's really easy and efficient for RCD staff to do this. It's that five minute intake form. And then typically about a one to two hour meeting with the landowner where they'll walk your property, understand your needs, identify appropriate NRCS practices that have been approved and tried and trued. And a couple of things like BDAs, that aren't yet a standard practice, but that might have an appeal to that landowner. And if the landowner wants to do them, the RCD keeps that information. And when a funding opportunity avails itself, the RCD can go after that with a number of properties at the same time, so drastically increasing the RCDs capacity to help landowners here in the region.

Craig Macmillan 15:45

One of the things that I think is interesting here is this is this is a new model. I haven't heard of anything quite like this before, at least in Agriculture and Land Management, you guys are doing stuff already. I mean, you're making things happen. How has the world of funders reacted to this because this is not their norm? This isn't what they're used to.

Devin Best 16:04

Yeah, actually, so one of the best case studies was, actually there's the SB 13, Senate Bill 1383, which is about reducing the amount of green waste that goes to landfills. And it was a you know, it's a mandate, and everybody was scrambling to try and figure out how to make this happen. Our local county slo county Waste Department reached out and said, Hey, RCD, you guys work with landowners? How can you maybe help us as well, you know, and actually, this works out really well, with our sustainable land initiative, I can actually, one identify a number of people that we've already talked to that are interested in compost, I can give you the acreage is I can already have a way to track how that that resource would be dispersed and monitored and reported in a very efficient way. So what would have normally taken us a year or even two years to get a scope of work and figure out all the details and how many landowners etc. We turn that around in three weeks, but that was only three weeks, but I was doing other things. That's not really like three weeks they spent doing it. But that's how quickly we could get the information to them. Right up the scope of work, get a contract, we are already doing it. We're meeting the goals for SB 1383. Here and still counting for 2022 and 2023.

Craig Macmillan 17:09

What about federal funders, state funders, how's that been going?

Devin Best 17:14

So that is something in the process of developing one of the programs we're really hoping to actually make this more attractive for a lot of people is there's the CDFA Healthy Soils block grants that was originally sent out for solicitation we put in two grants for healthy soils, and also for the state water energy and efficiency program. Our thought was that if we had those funds, we would actually be able to give as much as $5 million of funds directly to the landowners. The main thing that was a problem, and I will just say this, honestly, a lot of our cities were hesitant, because we're not administratively designed to have that much capacity for that much money really. And meaning that many that much demand. It was only because we had sustainable initiative, I was like, Well, this is perfect, because not only can we receive those funds, and get those to directly to landowners, but we can actually report it very quickly back to CDFA. And track all that information where it's not on a spreadsheet or someone's notebook somewhere or something like that. It's in a centralized database for us to use. That was one of the things I was really looking forward to getting those funds to sort of see the true power of the platform itself.

Craig Macmillan 18:21

That's fantastic. And that leads them to the next part of the process. So we've we've we've brought people into the system, we then have put together an application for funding, we now have a way of making that efficient, and getting to the funders hopefully funding that then comes in which it sounds like it has now there's a lot of reporting, having worked on grants the past, there's a lot of reporting that's involved, and it takes every form from where how many pencils Did you buy to how many acre feet of water did you move? I mean, just everything. So Mike, this sounds like where the data management is really, really powerful.

Mike Larcher 18:58

So often, when you think about writing a report, if you're starting with a blank piece of paper, that's going to take you a very long time.

Craig Macmillan 19:06

Oh, yeah.

Mike Larcher 19:08

But in reality, you probably know a lot of the information already. And that's what we've done by using standard process is that all of that information that was captured during the original site visit and from the landowners intake form, including what their vision, their goal is, how many acres are on an orchard, how much or natural and all of that valuable data is available at a click of a button. So as you go through the process, you've actually had all these conversations, you've had all that you've discussed that and you've probably even written those notes down. Because all of those components are now digitized. All you have to do is click one button or at least RCD staff just has to click one button within the slides system and it will generate a word report pulling all of that information in and having it look and feel like the report that's necessary for the grant. It really makes it It's easier for monitoring and for tracking, Devon.

Devin Best 20:03

So going back to our original discussion about carbon farm plants, this is where we're really seeing the benefit, where before it would take my staff, many, many months to write a carbon farm plan one, and then to this the funding to be able to get those in place and everything else. Well, so now that we're, actually, I am going to use the word I do not know if its actually true, templatetorizing our businesses, it is now so we're actually taking what we do in our site visits. And we call these resource conservation profiles that collects all this information, we put it into a document for the landowners to have just as a living document. But because Michael's been involved in helping us kind of move these things forward, we're taking all that information and fitting it into carbon farm plans. So now what was taking me a year to write a carbon farm plan, I'm now getting my staff basically a day. And they're getting close to actually writing a full carbon farm plan in a day because we have all that information gathered. And it's just fitting the site visits and the resource conservation profiles, to these templates into these requirements for carbon farm plans. So that's in place, we're also doing the same thing with forest management plans, and conservation plans. So we have a way to make it so that my staff isn't spending all their time writing documents, they're just getting information, putting it in a format that's useful for everybody, whether it's the funding agencies, regulatory agencies, the landowner themselves, but then really transitioning in our conversations away from planning, and assessing, and actually implementing and doing and monitoring what's actually working on the ground. Yeah, go ahead, Mike.

Mike Larcher 21:28

The nice things about working with the rscds is they have this immense expertise and knowledge, they can write a carbon farm plan, I can't do that, all I can do is build the process to make them more efficient and effective. And so we'd still take all of that expertise from people who are highly trained. And we simply turn it into actionable results as quickly as we possibly can. You still have to know how to write a carbon farm plan, you have to be trained and have the understanding, and the scientific and agricultural backing to do it well. But now let's just make all of that information actionable, so that it can go into a plan, yes. But a plan just sits on a shelf? How do we unlock all of that data so that it can easily flow into a grant. So it can easily be tracked over the course of the next five years to say, here's what its real impact was. And that's the power of digitization.

Craig Macmillan 22:21

And that then brings us to, we've gone through the process. Now everybody's concerned about the final outcome. What about monitoring? What about evaluating? Did this work this work better here than better there? Can we improve is that part of this whole process is the post implementation part.

Devin Best 22:38

It is 100%. So that's one of the things when early on, we're designing this processes that we amend to make sure that we're one transitioning RCD staff role from being an administrator. Secondly, being more informative and providing that feedback loop. The other thing too, is if we're doing more of these sorts of things, we can be more informed to CDFA and NRCS, about what practices people like one, what are useful, and Intuit is again, sort of the biggest bang for the buck. At this point, if you look at all this healthy soils practices, I couldn't quite tell you which one is the best one for them to continue pushing forward and Central Coast versus maybe in the northern part of California. But if we do enough of these, we have the monitoring, and I'm shifting my staff time away from administration to on the ground monitoring and reporting and actually talking to people and having that conversation. And I think the main thing I can almost point to is, if you look at what we're doing, we're really sort of putting ourselves back into what they were originally designed to do. You know, back in the Dust Bowl era, not these administrative, let's go chase grants, but really being a resource, a local resource for growers and sort of taking their input and providing it to a higher context, whether it's the state agencies and saying, This is what you should be supporting. This is why we're gonna move this direction, maybe it's BDAs. Maybe it's biochar, maybe it's how these forest management plans fit into a larger context of our secret document, whatever it may be. But we can't have those conversations. When I'm going, Gosh, I really got to get this grant written. And I'm holding my fingers and crossing, hoping that we get something that comes up. So

Craig Macmillan 24:08

The same question, Mike, where now that we've gone through the process, where are we headed? From your perspective? Where are we going to go?

Mike Larcher 24:14

I want to see this really start to expand. It starts with the individual landowner. No one knows what's appropriate for their land as well as the landowner. As as much as a farmer or rancher who has been working that land. They know what they need, what they want. The sustainable land initiative exists just to help them achieve that as quickly and as effectively as possible. I want to see this start to scale. And when we start talking, we can talk about one individual landowner and helping them that's amazing. But when an entire region starts to do it, or when an entire state starts to do it, you start to see some really incredibly impactful outcomes. So we've actually deployed a solution that's quite similar. This is actually bottoms up working with individual landowners, we've done a solution very similarly in Europe from the top down. So within the the nation of Denmark, it allows landowners to select what fields they're willing to follow. And this is very specific to Denmark because it's such a low lying land mass, that's only a couple 100 feet above sea level. Well, they have a lot of agricultural land that is that has been completely drained from wetlands, and is very low yielding. It's only existing because it's already government subsidized. Well, what if we subsidize them to return it to wetlands instead? It is, landowners have been so excited about this initiative that they've had to continue to increase the funding year over year. And this one process on its own, is actually on track to reduce greenhouse gas for Denmark as an entire nation by 20%.

Craig Macmillan 25:52

Wow.

Mike Larcher 25:53

I mean, that's huge. And California is 10 times larger than Denmark.

Craig Macmillan 25:59

And also has its own goals. Yeah, there's a lot of potential here.

Mike Larcher 26:04

So my goal is to help landowners achieve their individual vision. But to do it at such a scale that we're really actually impacting the entire environmental the state.

Craig Macmillan 26:14

On this topic, is there one thing you would tell growers and landowners

Mike Larcher 26:17

take five minutes, open your phone or your browser

Craig Macmillan 26:21

Not while you're driving!

Mike Larcher 26:22

Look for stainable land initiative, not while driving, don't do it while driving.

Craig Macmillan 26:25

If we if we if you search a sustainable land initiative, we'll find you. And we will also put a link.

Mike Larcher 26:30

search sustainable land initiative, let your local RCD know what it is that you want to do with your land. And they'll try and help you fulfill your vision.

Craig Macmillan 26:39

Perfect.

Mike Larcher 26:40

They'll they'll try and make it so you don't have to deal with bureaucracy. And you can spend more time working your land. They'll figure out the permitting in the grants.

Craig Macmillan 26:49

Mike, where can people find out more about you?

Mike Larcher 26:51

You can google us at cBrain, the letter C and then brain like what's in your head. It stems from corporate brain. We designed a software to help enable all this in conjunction with the Danish government about 15 years ago. And we are now the back end of 18 of 21 Danish ministries part of why they're considered the most digitized government in the world.

Craig Macmillan 27:11

That's really interesting. Mike, thanks for being a guest.

Mike Larcher 27:15

It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Craig Macmillan 27:17

Our guests today have been Devin Best executive director of opera Salinas Las tablets resource conservation district located in San Luis Obispo County, California and Mike Larcher is a North American solution sustainability lead for cBrain and we talked about amazing, really fascinating model process that they've been implementing called the Sustainalbe Land Initiative.

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The needs of the market are always changing. So are the needs and ambitions of a business. Along with those ever-changing needs are the constant development of new technology and information that can help businesses thrive.

That’s why SIP Certified brands value Always Evolving.

Welcome to the final story in this year’s Sustainable Stories from SIP Certified Members.

Sustainable businesses know that in order to stay relevant and successful, they must be aware of opportunities to evolve.

Progress begins with investing in our most valuable resource, the People.

The people who serve your customers include everyone from the ones who craft your product to those responsible for developing your business strategy. Demonstrating your brand’s ethos of Always Evolving helps everyone on your team feel inspired and empowered to continue developing their unique skills that will help your business be sustainable.

There are countless opportunities for individuals in the wine industry to expand their skills and education.

Read on to learn how Talley Vineyards supports all of their employees in their professional development.

Always Evolving at Talley Vineyards Always Evolving as individuals and as a team ensures that everyone at Talley Vineyards is continually improving their skills and expanding their knowledge.

Supervisors are encouraged to further their agriculture and vineyard education as well as their leadership skills through annual management courses – in both English and Spanish!

With computers continuing to become an essential tool in today’s workforce, Talley Vineyards ensures their supervisors are taught computer skills to efficiently track time and production, and to collect data.

Employees of Talley Vineyards attend educational events and are offered training when they express interest in learning new skills.

The physical demand and discomfort that often come with vineyard care have been lessened with the adoption of mechanization. People who work in the vineyard experience greater efficiency with far less physical load.

Talley Vineyards believes that when each member of the team has a diversity of skills, the team as a whole is stronger.

What’s YOUR Sustainable Story? We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

We hope you’ve enjoyed learning about how your peers fulfill the 7 SIP Certified Values as much as we’ve enjoyed sharing them!

Your story can be featured in next year’s Sustainable Stories campaign! We are looking for a brand with an innovative approach to one of these three Values.:

Water Management
Safe Pest Management
Energy Efficiency

If you have a great Sustainable Story, we will help you tell it. Reach out to me at whitney@vineyardteam.org with a few quick notes!

We’ll get your story ready to be featured in our newsletter, podcast, online course, and social media, and in magazine articles and influencer campaigns.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * 3 Steps to Make a Sustainable QR Tour Your Guests Will Love * Business: Niner Wine Estates * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Smart Training online course * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story? * Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured

Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate * SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet * Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - $50 OFF with code PODCAST23 * Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

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If you like this podcast, then you will not want to miss the premiere sustainable winegrowing event of the year – the Sustainable Ag Expo. Cliff Ohmart, Principal at Ohmart Consulting Services has helped Vineyard Team bring together the nation’s top researchers to present at the Expo for a number of years. In today's podcast, you will get a preview of the topics and speakers for this year’s event.

Enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts, earn over 20 hours of continuing education (including 18 hours of DPR), and explore sustainable ag vendors November 14-15, 2023, at the Madonna Inn Expo Center in San Luis Obispo California.

By popular request, this year we have doubled the number of online courses so attendees can learn on-demand between October 16 and November 30.

Here are some of the sessions Cliff mentions. Make sure to check out the sustainableagexpo.org for the full program:

In-Person * Integrating Multiple Layers of Spatial Vineyard Information into Variable-rate Management Maps + Terry Bates, Cornell University * Vineyard Spraying Technologies to Improve Application Efficiency for Every Grower + Brent Warneke, Oregon State University * Trunk Renewal for Management of Trunk Diseases + Kendra Baumgartner, USDA-Agricultural Research Service * Soil Health and Regenerative Management to Support the Goals of Winegrape Producers + Cristina Lazcano, UC Davis; Noelymar Gonzales Maldonado, UC Davis; Charlotte Decock, Cal Poly * The Importance of Areawide Controls for Mealybugs and Leafroll – Is This Cost Effective? + Kent Daane, UC Berkeley

Online * Update on Vineyard Autonomous Equipment + Michael Miller, CAWG, Director of Government Relations * Nematodes affecting winegrapes: Biology and Management + Dr Inga Zasada, USDA ARS * Biological Control of the Glassywinged Sharpshooter and Pierce's Disease + Dr. David Morgan, CDFA * Current Status of the Winegrape Market + Jeff Bitter, Allied Grape Growers

As a listener to this podcast, take 50 off of your ticket when you use code PODCAST23 at checkout. Get your ticket at Sustainable Ag Expo.org.

Resources: * Tickets | Sustainable Ag Expo * 53: Producing Compost and Carbon Sequestration * 90: Nematode Management for Washington Grapes * 129: The Efficient Vineyard Project with Terry Bates * Efficient Vineyard * Madonna inn * Sustainable Ag Expo Program: + In-Person + Online

Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate * SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet * Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - $50 OFF with code PODCAST23 * Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And with me today is Cliff Ohmart. He is a consultant with Omart Consulting in a whole variety of areas. One of the things that he's doing right now is he's helping to organize or he's organizing the program for the 2023 Sustainable Ag Expo in San Luis Obispo coming up. He's going to tell us a little bit about some of the folks and some of the topics that will be there and some things that might be of interest to you. So welcome, Cliff.

Cliff Ohmart 0:22

Thank you very much, Creg. It's nice to be here with you. And I think this is a great opportunity to have this podcast before the expo so people can get an even better feel than just the website of what's coming.

Craig Macmillan 0:34

Absolutely. For those who don't know, what is the Sustainable Ag Expo?

Cliff Ohmart 0:38

it is a combined presentation slash trade show that the Vineyard Team has been putting on, I think, for at least 15 years now.

Craig Macmillan 0:47

It's been a while.

Cliff Ohmart 0:48

I's developed into quite the history, the roughly the format is there's a session in the morning from eight to 10, a half hour break for people to go out to the trade show 10:30 to noon, more presentations. Then there's lunch for people go to the trade show, then one to three, another half hour break, and then 3:30 to five. And there's only one session at the time, so people don't have to worry about missing something. Also, they're free to circulate through the trade show during the presentations if they so choose. This year, the Vineyard Team decided to change the format, which I takes I'm excited to see how this will go. So this year, it will be Tuesday, Wednesday full days as I just described that schedule. But then Monday evening, it'll be a kickoff what we're going to be doing for the feature presenter, which is Dr. Terry Bates from Cornell, he and I will be on stage for a period of time, I think half hour to an hour where we'll be in sort of an interview back and forth situation give a chance to see him ask questions to get ready for the next day. And so I'm excited about that. And then the first session which will be Tuesday morning from eight to 10. First Terry Bates will be doing a formal presentation of his work followed by a panel of Terry Bates, Dr. Andrew McElrone, and Dr. Mason Earles from Mason is from UC Davis. Andrew is works at ARS Agricultural Research Service Station, and Davis and their area of expertise is all around detailed data analysis and Andrew especially on water relations, particularly in vineyards, Mason Earles more along remote sensing, things like that. And the focus of Terry's talk, as well as the night before is on precision viticulture. He, along with a big team of people developed something called the efficient vineyard. And it's very impressive, in part because the software is available for anybody for free. And it's anywhere from it can capture as the website is a really nice website for you can use your phone to capture gopher holes, the location of gopher holes, broken post right up to very advanced remote sensing that you can import into the software. So it's all in one spot. I'm excited about this, because I think you've probably seen the same thing. There's so much technology out there. And it's very exciting. But I think especially for the small to mid size grower, there's a concern about do I have the time to do this? Do I have the ability to do this? What's this all about? Where's the bigger grower can hire somebody to check it out? And I think the session Monday night and Tuesday morning is going to be focused on what's the reality here? What can growers do with it. And then from the researchers perspective, which is Andrew McElrone, and Mason Earles, they want to see people applying their work. And so what is that's really what I'm hoping to get out of that session.

Craig Macmillan 3:49

Yeah, I have interviewed Terry Bates. And I've also communicated with him off and on over the years. And his areas of specialization is proximity sensing. So some of the high tech stuff they do has to do with like yield monitors and harvesters and different types of EC sleds and stuff like that. But he also is very much about making a map. And you can do it. One of his messages to me almost every time I talk to him is like people can do this, you can do it. You don't need to go too crazy, the most important thing is do it. And so I'm really excited to see him there and talk about the more advanced technological stuff. But also I imagine he'll be encouraging people to follow this concept. I think it's really, really fascinating and the things that they find out it's fascinating, too.

Cliff Ohmart 4:33

I agree.

Craig Macmillan 4:34

There's a lot of stuff also that's out there that's available but you don't have to invent you don't have to invest in there's information that's out there.

Cliff Ohmart 4:40

Yeah, that's what I think, especially for us on the West Coast. You know, Cornell is a powerhouse, as you know, and I think West Coast people, some people probably know that others don't. And there's more and more things to tap into, on both coasts, as well as the Middle. One fun thing too for me Is the moderator for the after Terry's talk for the session with Terry, Mason, and Andrew is going to be moderated by Donnell Brown, who is executive director of the National grape Research Alliance. And one of the things to think about is I don't have to moderate she's going to do it. Then the other thing is, the National Grape Research Alliance has been instrumental in bringing researchers together from around the US in viticulture and enology and creating a goal oriented team to go pursue money to do various things like develop the efficient vineyard project. So she's going to be the moderator. So she knows these people well, so that'll be fun. My only regret is I know, there won't be enough time to really get into what we do as much. But there'll be afterwards for people to talk to the speakers on the side.

Craig Macmillan 5:56

And that is one of the really great things about the expo is the speakers. Well, I guess full disclosure. Years ago, I worked for a Vinyard Team. And the position was technical program manager and and I was responsible for putting together programming for the expo and whatnot. Every buddy that I ever recruited, was super happy to stick around and talk to growers. That was like the high point for them. And this is an opportunity where you get to do that. And they take questions during the session. But sometimes people there's not time or they didn't want to ask and then they have an opportunity to actually interact with the with the scientists themselves. And that's just a fantastic opportunity. Because a lot of conferences and meetings, you can go and you don't really have the opportunity to talk to the the experts afterwards. And it's much more informal. It's very much also grower to grower, I think one of the things that's great about the the expo is there's a lot of conversation after the sessions between people along the lines of Yeah, we tried this, or we're thinking about trying this, or what do you think about it, you know, and that's just super invaluable. I think.

Cliff Ohmart 6:59

I don't want to forget, I don't think we will. But another change in format is this year, instead of the third day of presentations, we're going to be recording 10 or so virtual recordings that will be available from October 16 to November 30, to the attendees of the Expo, and we'll touch on a couple of those. I'm sure the Vineyard Team website will have a nice list of presenters of the imprison Expo in virtual as well so people could see. But I think we're going to touch on a couple of those you and I in this podcast. But I wanted to bring that out as well.

Craig Macmillan 7:34

Let's go right into that. First of all, because that is a change for Expo. But I think it's also a change kind of in our modern world. So this is the idea of making content available to those who have bought tickets essentially. Right. So it's another day of the expo, but they can view it at any time during that window.

Cliff Ohmart 7:51

Yes.

Craig Macmillan 7:52

So that gives them some schedule flexibility, which is pretty cool. Who are some of the folks that are going to be in these virtual virtual sessions?

Cliff Ohmart 8:00

There's a really interesting, I think half hour to 45 minute talk by a fellow named Michael Miller, who is the California Association of Winegrape Growers, Director of Government Relations, and he is doing a presentation on the laws and regulations related to using robotics, particularly driverless tractors in the vineyard, which probably does not surprise you. The technology is ahead of the laws and regulations. So there are driverless tractors now a little available, and yet the laws and regulations around you know, through OSHA, are you have to have a driver on the tractor at all times. Very interested to hear that presentation about what's coming, who's doing the work to try to change those laws. What might the changes look like.

Craig Macmillan 8:45

I'm totally fascinated by this idea. And yeah, absolutely, technology will run ahead of regulation, and then regulation kind of get caught up. And that's where we're at. Right now. We're in the middle of that process. And we went through with drones to kind of work our way through it. I can't wait to see that one. And it's gonna be fascinating. Who else?

Cliff Ohmart 9:05

Another advantage of doing these virtual recordings is we can get people from overseas. So those that have attended the expo before, especially the virtual ones during the pandemic, there's this interesting fellow Dr Zi Hao Wang at the University of Sydney and he has been working on using drones in vineyards for bird control. So he's two other and two years in the past on this and it's a continuation of the work he's doing. It's still pretty much theoretical at the moment in that it's not being used commercially out in the vineyard. However, he is an engineer by trade and education. And you can see when you see some printed presentation, he brings that to the end. One of them very interesting things is his his focus is on tethered drones. Not free flying drones. For two reasons. One is they need to be on call all the time during the day daylight hours. So there's a problem with battery life. And with tethered drones, you don't have to have that. The other is that even though drones, the trades make it sound like they're very easy to fly, they get away. And another reason that tethered drones offer the advantage. So it's fascinating. He's got simulations that he shows in his presentation about how the Tethered drones will work. One of the things that he he just reviews what he's done before, and there is a past year's presentation on this, where he shows proof of concept that you can train the birds to be afraid of drones, if just the drone by suffer bird is not going to be afraid of it. But he literally took dead crows. And because crows do exist native crows in Australia and our problems, he hung them from drones to show that you can definitely condition them very quickly. And then he's got great videos of birds flying away during this.

Craig Macmillan 11:04

That is really a trip.

Cliff Ohmart 11:05

And then another interesting one is going to be on carbon planning for for your farm or your vineyard. There is a company that develops sensors and things like that, but also ecologically based things called Agrology. They do some very detailed work. And so the CEO of Agrology, Adam Koeppel is going to give a presentation, carbon planning, I mean specifically about carbon planning, and measuring soil carbon in real time, which is necessary and the benefits of carbon planning. I thought that that's kind of a unique thing as well.

Craig Macmillan 11:40

What is carbon planning?

Cliff Ohmart 11:42

This would be you know, you've already heard people marketing, I've got a carbon neutral vineyard, it's how do you measure that? You know, how do you sequester carbon? Can you sequester carbon? What difference does it make, but it would be along the lines of and clearly energy consumption comes in? How do you develop a carbon plan for your farm, so that what's happening in the soil, but also energy use and all of that.

Craig Macmillan 12:06

Speaking of so carbon, there is going to be a session I think on day two, around climate smart AG, regenerative ag and soil health.

Cliff Ohmart 12:15

Yes, and I am so excited about this session. When I reached out early on, I definitely wanted to session on soils, because there's so much going on around soil, micro biomes carbon sequestration, regenerative farming, and knowing that there's a lot of great concepts out there. But how much do we really know about all these things? Well, actually, the title of the session is, for the whole two hours, soil health and regenerative management to support the goals of Winegrape producers, Charlotte Decock, from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. So she'll be local in terms of the in person, Expo, she's going to be tackling this topic of regenerative agriculture. What is it? And what can be your production goals around it? So she herself is leading a comprehensive effort on looking at the practices which, you know, regenerative AG is nothing new, to be honest. And I think a lot of us realize that but so she's gonna be looking at things that are going to be sound very familiar cover cropping, compost, addition, sheep grazing, and no till, and what are they doing to specific soil characteristics biophysical and chemical, then another very interesting talk is Noelymar Gonzales Maldonado. And she is a PhD student with Christina Lazcanois here at UC Davis and Noely done some interesting survey around the perceptions of grape growers on what they think soil health is. And then she's connected that to the results of our survey to actual problem soils versus healthy soils and based on the growers deficient, and what they have done in those soils to, you know, address this idea of soil health, and it's going to be fascinating.

Craig Macmillan 14:02

Oh, yeah, um, yeah, totally.

Cliff Ohmart 14:04

Because we're talking about practitioners out there. What do they think regenerative AG is soil health is how do they deal with it and the soils if they have both really good ones, and not so good soils. And then the last person is I mentioned Christina Lazcano, and she's a soil scientist here at Davis, and she's going to be looking at regenerative ag and production goals. And she's leading a comprehensive effort on practices that I've already mentioned the cover crop and compost edition and looking at the effects chemically and physically on the soils. So you can see they're all related. The session is going to be interesting in that they'll all be up front, and they're going to be tag teaming. So it's going to be a really different type of session.

Craig Macmillan 14:49

That sounds really, really fascinating. I know Christina and Charlotte, and they are absolutely fantastic. Not only are they great scientists, they're great communicators, that's worth the price of admission to just see that one session. As far as I'm concerned.

Cliff Ohmart 15:01

So that's going to be Wednesday morning from eight to 10. So, you know, I think we've got a lot of good stuff all day. But the session opening session Tuesday morning and Wednesday morning are clearly highlights.

Craig Macmillan 15:15

Something else we should mention before I forget, are there continuing education hours available?

Cliff Ohmart 15:19

There are and we basically our goal was to have 15 to 18 continuing education units for PCAs. And growers. So that means related to pest management stuff, it will be a combination of the in person presentations, as well as those virtual presentations. Some of the virtual ones will be awarded CPA units, CEU units where you will have to take an exam after you have presentation because you can imagine there's no way in two days, we're going to be able to cram in 15 to 18 hours of CPUs a lot of CCA units as well, for the in person expo.

Craig Macmillan 16:01

Are any of those laws and regs. DPR laws and regs units?

Cliff Ohmart 16:05

There are we have a closing session on Wednesday afternoon, that is going to be done by Juan Muniz from AgSafe on worker safety and pesticides around the farm. So that'll be an hour and a half of laws and regs for that session.

Craig Macmillan 16:21

You've been to a bunch of these what's what's your favorite part, we've talked, we've hit on some highlights, but just you personally what's your favorite part of going to Expo?

Cliff Ohmart 16:27

My favorite part is to listen to what people are talking about in terms of the different presentations. You know, I'm biased, because I've helped put them all together. That's what I listened for. And then of course, for me, I get to see people because being retired, I don't go to many meetings anymore. And it's great to see both the growers the viticultural consultants, the trade people that I know to talk on the side. So all of that, and then it's fun to peruse the trade show, I don't have a lot of time because I ended up introducing a lot of presenters. So it's it really is a combination of all of that, because I stay at the Madonna Inn it's also fun to stay in one of those funky rooms at the Madonna Inn. That's not to say it's not comfortable. But I think you laugh. I think anybody that stayed there, they've got some really interesting rooms.

Craig Macmillan 17:19

For those who don't know, in San Luis Obispo, there's a hotel called the Madonna Inn, and they have themed rooms, and they're all different. And they're all decorated to the theme. So depending on how many times you stay, you'll stay in different rooms, and you'll see different things and the facilities themselves are quite interesting. So yeah, it's a fun, it's a fun place. It's a fun place to do it. And then they have an expo hall, which is where the expo will be, which is again, really a nice building, it's really well appointed, has everything that we need. Oh, what about what about food people need bring sack lunch?

Cliff Ohmart 17:53

No, my experience with the expo is there's always food available for lunch. It's gonna vary from Tuesday to Wednesday. But I have never felt like I needed to go out over lunch.

Craig Macmillan 18:06

I've always been very happy.

Cliff Ohmart 18:08

Yeah. And then there'll be a snack in the afternoon, and then tea and coffee and some pastry in the morning before you get there. So it's worth getting there a little at a time. Because that's there as well.

Craig Macmillan 18:20

How did you come up with the program? Were you given direction? Did you say hey, these are great ideas that you have people come to you and say I'd like to do this? How did you put together?

Cliff Ohmart 18:29

There is an organizing committee that the venue team through Beth Vukmanic put together and it's you know, it's an existing committee from year to year. And so how we start is we independent of them, I sit down and come up with some ideas and send it to them. And they do the same to me. And we very quickly put a pretty large spreadsheet together with all our ideas and with the ideas come specific people. And then from there, it really tends to come together very quickly. Once we get started reaching out to people, we base it on what's been happening in the past what seems to be current this year, that wasn't last year. So it's a combination of things.

Craig Macmillan 19:12

So again, it's grower driven, growers talking about what's of interest to them, and then handing it over and saying, okay, brings the best in the brightest. Obviously, things are always in flux. And at the point of this interview, we're quite a ways out from the expo. But we do have some other rock stars. I wanted to mention, John Roncoroni is going to be there. Apparently, he's a weed scientist. He is fantastic. I think he's retired or close to it, at least the last time I talked to him. And then Kendra Baumgartner and she's been kind of a perennial favorite, her areas, trunk diseases, and that area has progressed dramatically in 20 years what we've learned and it's always a joy to see what new stuff she brings. Akif Eskalen who's doing a lot of work in nursery practices. He's doing some pretty interesting things that could impact the whole industry, which I think is is pretty cool. Emily Symmes is going to talk a little bit about mealy bugs and mating disruption and David Haviland, who's an absolutely fantastic entomologist. I think he's going to talk about ant control. That's right. He's a very good speaker, and really, really good. George Zhuang. He is an extensionist, and has been doing really great work around the central valley, I believe, predominantly, but he speaks all over the state and has worked on all kinds of stuff. I think he's going to talk about root stocks. At this time. Matthew Fidelibus is also gonna be talking about root stocks and varieties in that session.

Cliff Ohmart 20:31

What I would point out there is he has developed an online guide to grape varieties root stocks, and that specifically was talking about so I think that's a great opportunity for growers to hear about this.

Craig Macmillan 20:43

I'm also happy to see that Mark Fuchs is coming back. He's from Cornell, he has been one of the leaders in research on red blotch. He was our featured speaker at the expo, gosh, I don't know five or six years ago, he's always fascinating and is doing really interesting work. And then one of my favorite entomologist, and people in the whole world, Kent Daane, is gonna be talking about leaf row virus and areawide management for mealy bugs, which is turning out to be really important working together as a group to manage a pest. It's not just within your fence line, it's crossed the area. And that's been a really interesting project that has gotten some traction in Lodi, I'm familiar what they what they've done, there. And so that should be really fascinating as well, who am I leaving out?

Cliff Ohmart 21:26

Our fellow named Brent Warneke, who is going to be talking about sensor based sprayers and spraying and vineyards. He's from Oregon State. And he'll be talking about air blast, as well as micro sprayers. He's done a series of interesting work on sprayers that are sensor based. And as he sort of says in his little description, just because you have a sensor based sprayer, doesn't mean you're all ready to go. He's going to talk about how they can be best used and what they actually can do for you.

Craig Macmillan 21:58

David Morgan, I'm not familiar with David Morgan, can you tell me who that is?

Cliff Ohmart 22:03

You did a great job of covering the entire agenda for the in person. Now we can talk a little to finish up on the virtual part. So I was really interested in trying to get someone to come and talk about the Pierce's Disease Control Program that is based at CDFA. And it's the research arm is funded by growers by an assessment. It's very important, I think, for growers to see how successful their research dollars have been. And to make a long story short, I ended up having David Morgan, who is now working on exactly what he's gonna be talking about. But he is going to focus his presentation on the bio control of Glassman sharpshooter, which I think everybody knows is one of the crucial pairings in the Pierce's disease problem. He's stationed out in Riverside with CDFA and very knowledgeable biocontrol is his expertise, there's going to be a talk about a fellow named Michael Brownbridge who is with Bioworks. I'm not familiar with Michael but he's going to be talking about pesticides as well as bio fertilizers. So that's going to be a part of the program. And another one we just you mentioned Kent, Dana, and you refer to Lodi Yes, I've been so excited to secure Maria's Zumkeller she is with Lang Twins vineyard in Lodi and I saw a talk she gave at Lodi grape day in February, the Lang Twins have recognized for a while now the seriousness of leaf roll virus being vectored by vine mealybug. So the two together it's becoming a huge problem. They have boldly approached the use of intensive monitoring and rogueing vineyards to see if they can manage economically vine mealubug for leaf roll. And so Maria is going to be talking about the latest. They've got several years of data now and it's very amazing and impressive to see what they've done. It's possibly for people that have serious problems with leaf roll. This is one approach they might want to take and it is connected to Kent Daane's work because he's worked in the Central Coast and Lodi with area wide management and fine mealybug and coupled with that leaf roll So those are the things that I'm highlighting up then there's a talk by Luca Brillante, from Fresno and he's going to be doing a presentation on diagnosing red blocks disease, which of course is what Mark Fuchs would talk about diagnosing red blocks with spectrometry. So remote sensing.

Craig Macmillan 24:40

And then there's also some thing on powdery mildew controlled organic powdery mildew control.

Cliff Ohmart 24:45

Yes, there is interesting talk by Annemiek Schilder who is the county director in Ventura County and she has done a research experiment using compost tea and So that's what her presentation is going to be about. It's basically starts by saying what is compost tea, which is important to understand how to make it. And it's it's pretty simple. And then how to apply it and what results she's gotten out in the vineyard with it.

Craig Macmillan 25:16

Yeah, that'll be very interesting. People have been playing around with that for a long, long time. And I think it's, it's interesting to see it come back. And then one that I think that I will try to catch is Jeff Biller talking about the grape market, we can't forget the the other E. Right. We've got the environment, social equity, and economics and so grape markets' important. So all part of the all part of the picture and the those talks whether, it's him or somebody else is always very interesting. And there's usually something along those lines in the Expo.

Cliff Ohmart 25:48

And it's going to be very current. We have organized with Jeff, he will record that presentation, literally a few days before the videos will be released. So I think like October 11. So it would be very up to date. In fact, to Jeff's credit, he was not going to do a recording unless he could do it at the last minute because things change. Again, I agree. It's, you know, their times are not easy for a lot of growers. So a grape market is as complicated and

Craig Macmillan 26:17

Ever changing.

Cliff Ohmart 26:18

Yeah, we all need to keep track of that.

Craig Macmillan 26:21

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks Cliff has been great. Our guest today was a Cliff Ohmart with Omart consulting, and one of the things he does is he helps put together programming for things like the Sustainable Ag Expo, which is coming up in November of 2023. I personally cannot recommend it enough. Every time I've gone or have helped organize it. I've learned so much. And I've also met so many great people and some of them are speakers and so more growers and some of them were vendors and it's just a it's just a fantastic time to kind of get away and it's also really fun because usually hopefully harvest is over and you have a little little reward there at the end before you take your break and then come back and do budgets. So anyway, thanks, Cliff.

Cliff Ohmart 27:02

You're very welcome Crreg. It was really great to do it and I will see you and San Luis Obispo.

Craig Macmillan 27:09

You will see me you will see me I'll be there.

Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

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Looking for a fun group project for the upcoming slow season? Grab your team and create a Sustainable QR Tour!

A Sustainable QR Tour is a unique, educational, self-guided way for your guests to learn about your brand’s sustainable practices.

When you create your Sustainable QR Tour, you will:

Showcase your sustainable attractions.
Explain each attraction with a short video or quick written description.
Bring your tour to life by posting your QR codes and making a map.

By taking your Sustainable QR Tour, your visitors will:

Learn about your brand’s values.
See sustainability in action.
Enjoy an activity as they taste your sustainable wines.

In this Marketing Tip, we’ll walk you through all of the steps to create your Sustainable QR Tour.

Step 1: Identify Your Sustainable Attractions 1. Get your team together and talk about examples of sustainability at your property. * SIP Tip: use the Sustainable Stories worksheet to get the ball rolling! 2. Pick 5 to 10 things that can be seen and/or approached by a visitor at your property. These will be the attractions for your QR tour. 3. Take notes about the sustainable aspects of each attraction, and why it is important to your brand. These will be used to create the content describing each attraction.

Ideas to Get You Started Vineyard Attractions * Vines (Value #2: Water Management) + Soil and plant-based moisture monitoring devices ensure vines are irrigated when needed. + Drip-irrigation systems use 20-50% less water per-acre than sprinkler systems.

Owl box (Value #3: Safe Pest Management)
Owls are natural predators for vertebrate pests like squirrels and gophers.
Cover crop (Value #5: Habitat)
Contribute to the vineyard ecosystem’s biodiversity.
Provide homes for beneficial insects.
Prevent soil erosion.

Winery/Tasting Room Attractions * Solar panels/EV charging stations (Value #4: Energy Efficiency) + Capturing the sun’s energy means less draw from the grid.

Pamphlets for charitable foundations, organizations, etc (Value #1: Social Responsibility)
Socially responsible businesses give back to their communities.
Your brand’s Newsletter (Value #6: Business)
Sustainable businesses celebrate their successes and plan for the future.
7 Values of SIP Certified table sign (Value #7: Always Evolving)
SIP Certified members stay up to date with the latest sustainable winegrowing practices

Step 2: Explain Each Sustainable Attraction Create Your Content Each one of your sustainable tour attractions will have its own QR code. When scanned, the code should open up either a video or a written description.

Use video: Grab your phone and in two minutes or less, introduce the topic, explain its sustainable aspects, and tell the viewer why it is important to your brand. Post your videos to YouTube, or give each one a dedicated blog post on your website.
Write it out: Create a blog post on your website for each of your sustainable attractions and put the information in writing.

It is important that the information for each sustainable attraction is on its own page! That way, when the QR code is scanned, only the information for the appropriate attraction opens.

Generate Your QR Codes Visit the published page for each sustainable attraction’s content, and follow these steps to generate your QR code:

Tap your mouse’s right clicker anywhere on the web page.
Click “Create QR code for this page.”
WARNING: Don’t modify the link that appears under the QR code!
Click the button to Download your QR code.
Rename your QR code so it’s easily identifiable.
SIP Tip: use a name that includes the tour stop (e.g.: cover crop video)
Save your QR code on your computer.

Step 3: Bring Your Tour to Life Now it’s time to post your QR codes at your stops, and make a map so visitors know where to find them.

Print & Post Your QR Codes You will need to print your QR codes and give them a clear, protective covering to shield them from the elements. You can use a laminator, packing tape, or clear binder inserts. Or have them printed on a material that can withstand the elements.

Attach them to a sturdy surface at or in view of your Sustainable QR Tour attraction.

Make a Map Your visitors will want to know where to go when they embark on your Sustainable QR Tour!

Your map can be hand drawn, or you can use an application like Canva, or Adobe Illustrator to make your map.

On the back of the map, list out your stops in the order they appear along the path, and give a quick hint for finding the QR code.

SIP Tip: Make it a Game! Create a quiz sheet for your guests, and have them complete it once they visit all of the stops. Or, encourage them to post a picture or video from their tour experience on their social media and tag you.

Put your guest’s names into a pot for a monthly drawing, and get creative with your prizes! A complimentary tasting for two, a piece of SWAG from your shop, or a private tour with your General Manager, Winemaker, or Vineyard Manager are just a few ideas.

Coming Up... Our next Marketing Tip will feature the final story in this year’s round of Sustainable Stories from SIP Certified Members. Be sure you don’t miss the inspiring story of how Talley Vineyards supports all of their employees in their professional development.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Resources: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Business: Niner Wine Estates * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Safe Pest Management: Wolff Vineyards * SIP Smart Training online course * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story?

Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate * SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet * Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - $50 OFF with code PODCAST23 * Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

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High temperatures and extreme weather events can have numerous impacts on wine grapes and ultimately wine quality. Dr. Andreea Botezatu, Associate Professor and Extension Enology Specialist at Texas A&M University, Texas AgriLife Extension Service finds that changes in ripening patterns are the most common. In high heat, sugars accumulate faster, acids degrade, ripening happens earlier and the result is higher alcohol wines. The challenge is that ripening is not linear. Tannins and maturation of the seeds do not progress at the same pace. Plus, high pH causes color and flavor instability.

Andreea is experimenting with verjus, the juice of green grapes. In North America, grapes from crop thinning are traditionally considered waste. However, in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, green grape juice is used in many culinary practices. Verjus has little sugar, high acidity, and low pH making it a perfect addition to unbalanced wines.

Learn about her current experiment testing both red and white grape verjus against three other acidification methods. Plus, Andreea gives listeners tips on how to prevent that green pepper flavor caused by ladybug taint.

Resources: * 145: New Class of Compounds Linked to Smoke Taint in Wines (Podcast) * 143: Can Barrier Sprays Protect Against Smoke Taint in Wine? (Podcast) * Dr. Andreea Botezatu’s LinkedIn page * Dr. Andreea Botezatu ResearchGate * Dr. Andreea Botezatu Google Scholar * Malo-Lactic Fermentation in a New Climate * Sustainable Wine Practices * Texas A&M Facebook page * Texas A&M Foundation * Texas AgriLife Extension Enology YouTube

Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate * SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet * Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - $50 OFF with code PODCAST23 * Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And my guest today is Andreea Botezatu She is Associate Professor and extension enology specialist at Texas A&M University, the Texas AgriLife Service. Thanks for being our guest today.

Andreea Botezatu 0:11

Thank you for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:12

We're very interested in some of the work you've been doing recently around effects of warming climates on vines and on wines. You're in enologist. In particular, you've been doing work on wine quality. That Correct? And you've been doing work in Texas, obviously.

Andreea Botezatu 0:26

Yes, for the past seven years or something. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 0:30

And would you say that temperatures during the growing season in Texas overall have been increasing?

Andreea Botezatu 0:35

I would Yes, the temperatures historically have been increasing. And furthermore, we see a lot more extreme weather events. So temperature records being broken, as well as like I said, extreme weather storms, winds hail, a lot of hail we, we've been having quite a bit of hail in Texas. So these can affect the process of grape growing.

Craig Macmillan 0:58

Absolutely. So definitely, there's been some changes, how has this been affecting one quality, what particular parameters are being most affected?

Andreea Botezatu 1:04

Right. So this is not straightforward answer for this question. Because because several things can happen when you have extreme weather events and temperatures rising. The biggest one that we see here is a changing ripening patterns. So sugar accumulation and acid degradation, they kind of change sugar tends to accumulate much faster, because of the earlier heat we tend to see earlier ripening. So earlier, harvesting sugar accumulates faster acids degrade quite a bit, the ripening is not linear anymore. So we see ripening in terms of sugar, but we don't see that in terms of tannins or aroma compounds or maturation of the seeds. So there's a bit of disconnect there. That's one thing because of the higher sugar accumulation, we tend to see higher levels of alcohols in wine, which is not necessarily a good thing. There's only so much so much alcohol that you want to have in wine that becomes overbearing and unpleasant and the wines will be unbalanced. Most importantly for us in Texas, and I'm sure for any other grape growing region that deals with high temperatures is an increase in pH because of acid degradation. We see grapes coming in with very low titratable acidity, we're talking three four grams per liter, and then pH is of four and above.

Craig Macmillan 2:31

Wow.

Andreea Botezatu 2:32

Yeah, yes, wow, indeed, very, very high pH is that we have to deal with as winemakers as I'm sure your audience knows high pH can cause a host of problems and wine quality problems from microbiological instabilities, compromising one quality that way to color, instability, aroma, and flavor, balance all of that. So that's a big thing that's happening.

Craig Macmillan 2:56

And those high sugars are also problematic just for getting your fermentations done.

Andreea Botezatu 3:00

Absolutely. You can have problems starting your fermentation, you can have problems finishing your fermentation,

Craig Macmillan 3:05

What kinds of things are winemakers doing to try to manage these factors, but and what kinds of things are you looking at to try to manage these factors?

Andreea Botezatu 3:13

Right, so my researcher at A&M, is focused on acidity and acidity management, again with a focus on pH more so than titratable acidity. So over the past six years, we've been looking at two alternative acidification methods. One is enzymatic, it employs the use of glucose oxidase that is a is an enzyme that helps transform glucose into Gluconic acid, thereby increasing the acidity of the wine and increasing the pH. So we've done some research on both reds and whites. And that research has been published in peer reviewed journal. So those are links that I can share with you and now we are working with verjus and that falls within the sustainability category as well because a little bit of background on what verjus is and how it can help. Verjus is the juice of green grapes. It is produced from unripe grapes that are pressed and the juice obtained is called verjus which comes from French, the French language jus vert, green juice. So basically it means green juice. And because it's made from unripe grapes, you can imagine there's little sugar in it, the acidity is quite quite high and the pH is quite low. Traditionally, grape growers can practice this crop thinning practice to manage their crop and crop quality. What they do is they drop some of the grapes on the vine before they ripen in order for all the resources of the vine to be directed to the grapes that are leftover. So the grapes that are getting dropped are traditionally especially in North America considered waste nothing is done with them. They are left on the vineyard floor. I have a European background right and I I grew up with these grapes being turned into virjus, we have a different name for it in Romanian, but same idea. And this juice was used quite heavily for various culinary practices in Eastern Europe and throughout the Middle East. So remembering that I thought, Well, why not try to take these grapes and make verjus out of them and you start to acidify? It is a natural product that comes from the vineyard and it gives added value to the grapes, right?

Craig Macmillan 5:29

And these grapes, are we talking just past verasion, are we talking still in the in the berry green hard pea stage?

Andreea Botezatu 5:36

So verjus traditionally is made pre veraison. There's not a set date for grape thinning or verjus production. It can vary anywhere from 30 days post bloom to 45 days post bloom and the beginning of verasion there.

Craig Macmillan 5:53

So tell me more about this. We make some verjus we collect some berries that haven't been through verasion yet, and then they're crushed, repressed or something. I'm also curious, is this done? Can this be done with both red and white varieties?

Andreea Botezatu 6:03

Again, a very good question. So last year, we had our first experiment with verjus and we made it with white from white grapes on Muscat Canelli. This year, we are making it from both white and red, we're using different varieties. And we're looking a little bit differently at it. So still, we want to see how it affects one quality and wine sensory profile. But what we're doing extra this year, so we're doing red and white. And on top of that we are comparing this method with three different acidification methods, three other acidification methods, both from a chemical and sensory perspective. So we're looking at, you know, the traditional tartaric acid addition that most wineries do, we're looking at verjus addition, we're looking at the GLX glucose oxidase that I mentioned earlier. And we're looking at ion exchange, which is becoming quite popular for pH reduction.

Craig Macmillan 6:57

Tell me more about that.

Andreea Botezatu 6:58

So ion exchange resins are widely used in water treatments, soft water, hard water, depending on what you're trying to achieve. Basically, there, there's resins that have been charged, and they can release either cations or anions. In our case, the resin that we use releases protons or hydrogen ions, and then the potassium in the wine gets reduced. And by releasing protons, increases the number of protons in solution, thereby decreasing the pH. And you basically pump your wines through this ion exchange column that holds the resin and it comes up on the other end.

Craig Macmillan 7:35

If I understand correctly, that's also removing the potassium, which is the buffer that's keeping it high. All right.

Andreea Botezatu 7:40

Some of that, yes, not all of it. Yes.

Craig Macmillan 7:43

Are you doing this at the juice stage, we're doing this just after fermentation. During aging?

Andreea Botezatu 7:48

We are doing this at the juice stage, from everything that I've heard in the industry, it is better to have it done at the juice stage, it has less impact on the final wine quality, but it's gentler, so yes, at all the treatments that we're doing, we're doing them at the juice stage and then fermentation follows sterilization and everything else.

Craig Macmillan 8:08

What kind of quantity or ratio of verjus might we need is in liquid or by weight to get these kinds of impacts that we're after?

Andreea Botezatu 8:19

Right? So it depends on what we're trying to achieve. We asked that question with our study last year. So we had two treatments last year one to see how much verjus we needed to add to drop the pH by one point. So let's say you start at 3.6, we're gonna bring it down to 3.5. How much verjus do I need to add to achieve that and the other one, the other treatment was to target pH. So again, you start at 3.6, but you want to drop it to 3.3. We did both. And it turned out in our experiment that we needed to add 2% by volume verjus to drop the pH by one pH point. And then for the target pH we needed, we added about 10 to 11% verjus to get to the target we wanted. So you know it depends on what you're starting with the pH you're starting with a depends on the pH of your verjus. And that makes a big difference. We're working with lower pH verjus this year compared to last year. So that might change things a little but this is what we got so far between two and 10%. With a pH is that we worked with.

Craig Macmillan 9:24

If I remember correctly during that latter phase before verasion when we get past like lag phase or so what's happening with the reduction in acidity is that the malic acid is getting metabolized basically as an energy source tartaric may come down a little bit during that period, if I remember right, so if I am picking things early, like pre raisin, I'm assuming there's going to be a quite a bit of malic acid in that juice.

Andreea Botezatu 9:50

That's right. Yes.

Craig Macmillan 9:52

And is that going to affect what I do from winemaking perspective?

Andreea Botezatu 9:55

Well, for whites, very little for reds. I think it's absolutely a positive thing because most winemakers will want to put their reds through malolactic fermentation. And that's problematic. Now here with a high pH is because if you have a malolactic fermentation with a high pH wine, you can run into a million different problems and have really serious quality issues. So by adding this natural malic acid from the grapes, you allow then your winemakers to run their malolactic fermentations at a safe pH and get that effect of roundness and softness and all the sensory properties that come with it.

Craig Macmillan 10:34

Are there things that growers can do in the field, we're talking about the bears up, so the things that other things that we can do in the vineyard to help ameliorate some of these are things that people experimenting with, or winemakers are interested in having vineyard folks experiment with.

Andreea Botezatu 10:48

I mean, in the vineyard, there's only so much you can do once your vineyard has been planted. Water management is very important. And it helps a lot makes a big difference. Water stress can can have quite the impact on grape quality and Vine health as well. So water management is a big thing. And then canopy management is another one, you want to make sure that your grapes are a little bit shaded, they're not completely exposed to the sun, so you avoid sunburn and heat and light exposure. These are things that some grape growers can do. Some grape growers in Europe, as far as I know, plant grass coverings to reduce the evapotranspiration, the soil level to maintain water in the soil as well some modify their canopy structure, raise the trunk. So there are a few options. But I would say water management and canopy management are the most important ones. However, there is something that can be done and is actually being done actively in various parts of the world. As temperatures change. grape growers are changing the varieties that they're planting to adapt to these higher temperatures and different weather patterns. So they're looking at varieties that are a lot more heat tolerant. And that's a big change, that's a big change. And that's going to have a big impact.

Craig Macmillan 12:07

Just to go back for a second, when we talk about irrigation management, what you're talking about is not stressing the vines overly you want them to be happy,

Andreea Botezatu 12:14

You know, vines, like a little bit of stress. So but not as much as we see with these types of temperatures here. So yes. Keep them somewhat happy.

Craig Macmillan 12:25

So there's some things that we need, we need to stay on our game, basically in the vineyard - monitor, monitor your your evapotranspiration, and also the plants status and all that kind of thing. Because I have seen vines and heat, you know, basically collapse. Yes. And, you know, it's all the chemistry in the grape just goes nuts. They're like at the last minute, you know, and you're like, Oh, we're doing great and everything goes to heck. what Oh, what about shade cloth? Are people using shade cloth?

Andreea Botezatu 12:51

Yes. So the answer is yes, you can use that. And another thing that they are using this has nothing to do with temperature but rather hail they use hail netting to protect their vines from from hail.

Craig Macmillan 13:03

Oh, interesting. Interesting. I've heard about that in Europe, and I've never seen it in the United States.

Andreea Botezatu 13:07

Yeah, well come to Texas.

Craig Macmillan 13:08

I'm gonna I do I need to come to Texas. I got a friend there who's a bit of culture tonight. He keeps saying you gotta come check it out. You gotta come check it out.

Andreea Botezatu 13:14

Well, I feel sometimes that like we are the main lab for grape growing in the world, because we've we've already done all this work because it's hot here anyways. So we started this 20, 30 years ago. Like we can teach the world a thing or two about grape growing in hot climates, really.

Craig Macmillan 13:34

And that's a really good point is that there's resources in other parts of the United States or the parts of the world that that may apply to your world. If you're in a different region as your region changes, then I've definitely learned that over time, I will look out for other sources outside of California. I'm in California, I'm on the Central Coast, California, which has traditionally been a very cool area. And we're gonna see if that continues, which then leads back to your point. So changing varietals, or varieties, I should say changing varieties, what direction are people going in? What's the what are people thinking?

Andreea Botezatu 14:09

Right, So people are looking at heat tolerant varieties. And these two, again, both come from hotter regions, southern regions, so we're looking at Spain, southern Spain, Southern Italy, Greece, some of the Georgian varieties as well. Some seem to be doing quite well. I can give you some examples of varieties that we have in Texas,

Craig Macmillan 14:30

Please.

Andreea Botezatu 14:31

We've planted a lot of Tempranillo, Mouvedre, Vermentino, Aglianico, Montepulciano, Sagrantino does fantastic here Tannat. does very well here as well. Albarino on the wine, white side, I said Vermentino we have some Russanne and Marsanneare doing okay, but southern Italian Spanish Portuguese varieties are quite the stars.

Craig Macmillan 15:00

That's interesting, and how are how are winemakers feeling about this? I mean, are they excited? Are they? Are they having a great time? I mean, Tannat was a very exciting variety about 10 years ago and have made some really nice wines in California, are people getting into it? Are they excited about it?

Andreea Botezatu 15:15

So winemakers are very excited about all of that the problem is not the winemakers, it's the consumers who are not not familiar with these varietals, they don't have name recognition, so convincing the consumers to try them and buy them and come back for them that that is the main problem that we are having now. But I think we're making a lot of progress. And actually, some of my research is focused on that as well. So name recognition and pronunciation and comfort in purchasing or choosing a wine that's hard to pronounce and submitted an article for publication, or looking at that just today.

Craig Macmillan 15:49

Just today, timely as today's headlines. Well, I'll be looking for that I'll be looking forward to that yet to people, you know, people will have to be kind of familiar with it, you know, they have to kind of recognize it over time, I think that can can definitely happen. I mean, I was thinking about SSangiovese in the United States, I'm thinking about Syrah, even in the United States, that was one that wasn't that labeled that much 30 years ago. And now we've got a whole fan base nationwide for that variety. And so maybe that same kind of thing will happen. And I hope so finding the plant for the place is huge, you know, and so if things are changing, we may want to think about finding different plants for that place.

Andreea Botezatu 16:25

I mean, look at Bordeaux, right? They Bordeaux, in France, they were approved to use six new varieties, which is extraordinary considering how long they only stuck with a traditional Bordeaux varieties. So now they are allowed to grow six new varieties, four reds and two white. So that's that's quite something. And that's not the only place where that is happening.

Craig Macmillan 16:47

Yeah, that's, that's very interesting. It will also be interesting to see if we have breeding plant breeding programs along these lines as well. That's an even harder road to hoe, because there's no history with it with a plant like that. But it's an interesting idea. I need to find a grower I need to find a plant breeder to talk to. So changing gears a little bit. There's something else that you've been working on that I'm really fascinated by. And that is Ladybug taint. And we are talking about the ladybug, we're talking about high sparrow.

Andreea Botezatu 17:14

Yeah, we're actually talking about ladybugs and this has been the subject of my PhD research and my postdoc work. So I've spent six, seven years looking at ladybugs and how they can affect wine quality. So for a little bit of background I have to start and be with some science. There is a group of compounds called methoxypyrazines that are naturally occurring in the world naturally occurring in plants. Many vegetables contain them bell peppers, for example, will have high levels of methoxypyrazines Peanuts, peas, green beans, some fruits contain them as well and grapes within a category of fruits, some grape varieties will naturally produce methoxypyrazines. These compounds smell like bell pepper in green beans like the vegetables that couldn't contain them. So at low quantities, low concentrations in grapes. These compounds methoxypyrazines can contribute to the paucity of the wine to complexity of the aroma profile and flavor profile of the wines. If however, these quantities increase, the concentrations increased, they can become overpowering and dominate the profile of the wine and you don't want your wine to smell like bell peppers and nothing else. Really, that's no fun. Another source of methoxypyrazines in the world is insects, in particular, lady beetles, ladybugs, and within the ladybugs category there are some species that are more apt at producing them but also infesting Vineyards, one of these species is called Harmonia axyridis, or the multicolored Asian lady beetle also known as MALB. Now this is a species that has been introduced into North America from Asia as a method of bio control against aphids in the 1960s mistaken and in time, it has established populations here and it has begun to spread so as the bio control method is very successful, it does what it's supposed to do but once the aphids are gone and the soybeans are picked harvested, then it looks for other sources of food and it can migrate into vineyards so these are the beetles will fly into vineyards they don't damage the grapes they don't bite into they don't want the grapes but they do feed on grapes that happen already open or cut for the sugar is you know is exposed in any way the flesh is exposed in anyways. And what happens is that if you pick the grapes with these lady beetles in them and you bring them into the winery with lady beetles in the menu, process them with lady beetles in these way they will also secrete something that's called hemolymph. It's basically their blood and this hemolymph will contain again Methoxypyrazines at quite high concentrations, these Methoxypyrazines get into wine, they tend to wine. So the wine will smell like bell pepper and green beans and potatoes and peanuts. And what's also interesting is that the ratio of these Methoxypyrazines is different in the hemolymph of lady beetles, as opposed to the ones naturally occurring in grapes. So there's one particular Methoxypyrazines , that's dominant in grapes, that's isobutyl Methoxypyrazines IBMP, whereas in ladybugs, it's the isopropyl Methoxypyrazines , and that's dominating. And that can be also a method of diagnostic, you know, if you're looking at a wine that smells like that, and you're not sure, where did they come from, if IBMP is the dominant one, most likely there was a lady beetle infestation there, if IPMP is the highest one, and it's just the grape and weather conditions or whatnot.

Craig Macmillan 20:51

Arectheir control measures, cultural things are their chemical things in the vineyard. And then the subsequent then moving to the next step is what what can wineries do when the grapes come in? Can they inspect the fruit?

Andreea Botezatu 21:05

Absolutely. So in the vineyard, there are some sprays that can be applied to get rid of the lady beetles. However, you have to be careful as a grape grower with pre harvest interval there. SO2 has been tested as a spray in the vineyard against a lady beetles as well and used to be very effective, which you know, it's very helpful because it's SO2 we sprayed and it was already added anyway. So that helps to have some natural products natural essential oils that have been tested, they were shown to be quite effective at repelling lady beetles. And then there's the same yo chemical, the push pull traps. So you want to have compounds that repel the lady beetles in the middle of your vineyard, and then compounds that attract the lady beetles outside of your vineyard. So it's a push pull system. That's what can be done in the vineyard. And then once grapes are harvested on the winery side, we need to make sure if we are aware that there was a lady beetle presence in the vineyard, we want to make sure we sort our grapes, very, very careful. I mean, it doesn't take much to taint the wine one lady beetle per kilogram of grapes is more than enough. So you got to be very careful when sorting to make sure we get rid of all lady beetles. And also what's important to remember is that even dead lady beetles can taint the wine. So even if you spray them kill them, if they're still coming in, they still have the potential to taint the wine. And that's one thing that's the first step that you can do as a winemaker, if still after that you have an issue with Ladybug tainting your wine, there are some things you can do. They're not extremely effective. So juice clarification has been shown to help a lot. Thermo vinification has been shown to help actually one very good method at reducing pyrazine levels in wine is Flash détente. That is very, very successful. And we have that here in Texas. And we have some wineries that use Flash détente are not necessarily for methoxy partisans for other purposes as well. But very successful at doing that. Some refinding treatments more or less successful. In my research, I looked at my plastic polymers and silicone and they worked, but you need to find a form of application to apply them industrial, you know, commercially. So right now we're not there yet.

Craig Macmillan 23:20

And these techniques were wondering would apply to both red and white wines.

Andreea Botezatu 23:24

Well, fining is more difficult with reds because of the loss of color. So it's easier with whites, but Flash détente on the other hand is better with reds than with whites. So thermo identification Flash détente would be better suited for it.

Craig Macmillan 23:38

In your experience. Do you think you're seeing an increase in Ladybug infestation? And is that possibly tied to the changes in climate?

Andreea Botezatu 23:46

Well, yes, we see a change in patterns. I don't know if necessarily an increase they seem to be moving from certain places and arriving in other places. So places that didn't used to have ladybugs have them now and then they move out certain areas. So yeah, there's a shift so people need to know about them. grape growers need to be aware of this problem and monitor their vineyards for ladybugs, you know, you don't think about it. They're cute little things and people seem to like them, oh, they're just ladybugs, but they can be quite quite detrimental, especially in particular species, which is quite easy to identify it has that M on the pronoun. So very easy to spot and to be aware of. So yes, grape growers need to keep an eye out for lady beetles in places where maybe they never used to have them before. Just something to be aware of.

Craig Macmillan 24:39

If we're talking about one particular species, is this an issue with other species in the order of Coleoptera?

Andreea Botezatu 24:47

To a much lesser extent, this one is worst one Coccinella septempunctata the seven beetle can summon spot beetle can also taint wines but we just don't see them in vineyards as much they're not as much of an issue as Harmonia.

Craig Macmillan 25:01

Interesting, we're getting close to our time here on both topics. Let's start with climate winemaking. And then let's talk about lady beetle. What is one thing that you would tell growers or winemakers regarding that topic and let's start with, with the warm wine.

Andreea Botezatu 25:17

Growers, I would advise them to choose their varieties carefully. When they initiate a vineyard when they start on the plan of vineyard and be very careful about their water treatment. To winemakers, I would say focus on pH rather than sugars focus on acidity. And also for those winemakers who look at malolactic fermentation in red as a given, I would urge them to reconsider. I personally don't see a reason why malolactic fermentation has to happen, especially if you have issues with acidity, it doesn't always benefit the wines. So and there are there are options out there to inhibit malolactic fermentation if you choose to do so there are several compounds that can help with that and help stabilize the wines from from that perspective. So I really, really encourage winemakers so at least think about that, start considering that as an option. Maybe start experimenting, you know, small amounts not necessarily go full on on not running malolactics, but start slow and see how it goes and see how that affects or changes the wine quality and wine stability.

Craig Macmillan 26:23

What about the lady beetle? What's the one thing you would tell both growers and winemakers about the lady bettle.

Andreea Botezatu 26:28

Do your best that so that it doesn't get into winery it's much easier to prevent than to fix the wines. So be very, very careful in the vineyard. Watch out for ladybugs and take them seriously if you see them.

Craig Macmillan 26:43

Action, early, early action, I think it was under chilled shift the closer to the crusher and the farther from the bottle you can fix a problem the more success you'll be. Well it looks like no farther from the crusher ahead of time. And closer to the crusher, after the crusher might be the solution. Where can people find out more about you?

Andreea Botezatu 27:04

Oh, I can share links to my Texas A&M page, my YouTube page. I have a YouTube channel where I post I have several different playlists where I post different videos related to enology wine quality, I can share with you the links to my peer reviewed papers on ladybug taint and pH management so they can find them on your website.

Craig Macmillan 27:27

That would be great. Yeah, but at least things will be on the show page. As always. Folks, I want to thank you for being on on the podcast. Our guest today was Andrea Botezatu. She's Associate Professor and extension technology specialist with Texas a&m University, Texas AgriLife service. This has been very enlightening. I think a lot of us are thinking about this, especially places that have been growing Pinot Noir and Chardonnay for a long time. A lot of people are thinking about this.

Andreea Botezatu 27:52

Well, you're welcome. And it was a pleasure being here. I just want to finish if I may with an observation that I had winemakers and grape growers from California contacting me about verjus research so they're very excited about that. I'm glad that we are getting to talk about this and maybe more people will hear about this and start thinking about about these options.

Craig Macmillan 28:15

Absolutely. Absolutely.

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A successful business does more than sell a great product. Companies that embrace the Business value of sustainability treat their employees and the community with care and respect.

This is our 200th episode of Sustainable Winegrowing! Since 2016 we have spent over 700 hours researching the attest business trends and interviewing international experts so you can learn in the time it takes to drive in-between vineyards. Thank you to everyone who has helped make this program a success and to you for listening!

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Enhance customer loyalty and invite customers to share in the good feelings that come from good deeds (Forbes, 2022).
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Business at Niner Wine Estates Sharing their prosperity with the community is one of the ways Niner Wine Estates embodies the Business value of sustainability.

Andrew Niner, President and CEO, is a board member of MUST! Charities, and believes in supporting the community through charitable donations.

Over the last 3 years, the Paso Robles, California based winery has donated an average of $245,000 annually to charities through a linked foundation.

Annual donations of $2,000 per employee go to a charity of the employee’s choice, and their own personal donations are matched by the company.

Staff are further involved in community support efforts through monthly meal preparations and servings to people experiencing food insecurity.

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They are participating in a study of local hydrology facilitated by the United States Geologic Survey. The project goal is to improve understanding of how water moves in the Adeladia Area water basin so that groundwater resources can be quantified and monitored.

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Plants by nature are designed to interact with light. Satellites can measure the light reflected by plants to detect grapevine diseases before they are visible to the human eye. Katie Gold, Assistant Professor of Grape Pathology, Susan Eckert Lynch Faculty Fellow, School of Integrative Plant Science Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section of Cornell AgriTech is trailblazing remote disease detection with imaging spectroscopy also known as hyperspectral imaging.

Imaging spectroscopy was developed by NASA to tell us what Mars was made out of. By turning satellites back on Earth, Katie and a team of scientists are learning how to use the light reflected back to manage grapevine viral and foliar diseases. Listen in to the end to get Katie’s number one piece of advice on the importance of data management.

Resources: * Alyssa K. Whitcraft, University of Maryland * Disease Triangle of Plant Pathology * Gold Lab * Katie Gold, Cornell University * Katie Gold - Twitter * NASA AVIRIS (Airborne Visible and InfraRed Imaging Spectrometer) * NASA Acres - applying satellite data solutions to the most pressing challenges facing U.S. agriculture * NASA Emit Satellite * NASA JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratory) * Planet Labs

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Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

With us today is Katie Gold, Assistant Professor of Grape Pathology at Cornell AgraTech campus of the Cornell University. Thanks for being on the show.

Katie Gold 0:08

Well, thanks for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:09

Today, we're going to talk about some really cool technology. I've been interested in it for a long time, and I can't wait to get an update on what all is happening. There's some really exciting work being done on using remote sensing for the detection of plant diseases. Can you tell us a little bit about what that research is about what's going on in that field?

Katie Gold 0:25

Sure, what isn't going on in this field, it's a really exciting time to be here. So I guess to put into context, we're really at this precipice of an unprecedented era of agricultural monitoring. And this comes from the intersection of you know, hardware becoming accessible, the data analytics becoming accessible, but also investment, you know, a lot of talk of ag tech being the next big thing. And with that comes this interest in using these cool and novel data streams for disease detection. So my group specializes in plant disease sensing, it's our bread and butter to what we entirely focus on. And we specialize in a technology called imaging spectroscopy for disease detection. So this is also known as hyperspectral imaging. Imaging spectroscopy is the technical term. And this is a type of remote sensing that it differs from, you know, radio wave remote sensing, and it focuses on light in the visible to shortwave infrared range.

Craig Macmillan 1:13

Talk a little bit more about that. So when we talk about hyperspectral, we're looking outside of the range of radiation, essentially, that's not just light.

Katie Gold 1:24

So yes, and no. So hyperspectral is a word that describes how the light is being measured, kind of colloquially, we assigned to it more meaning that it actually has. That's why I often like to differentiate between it for explanation sake, what hyperspectral imaging is, when we talk about using it in the full vSphere range, these are all types of light, you know, it's all aspects of the electromagnetic radiation scale. But this spectrum of light that ranges from the visible to the shortwave infrared, this spans a range of about 2100 wavelengths. So to put that into context, we see visible light only. And this spans a range of wavelengths, that's about 300 nanometers, and went from about 450 to 750. So if you think about all the richness of radiation, the subtlety in differences in color that you see in everyday light, all of that comes from those subtle interactions of, you know, specific wavelengths of light hitting that stuff and bouncing back into our eye. So now imagine having seven times more wavelengths than that, you know, we have 2100, different wavelengths that we measure. And those wavelengths that are beyond the range that we can see the reason why we don't see them as they're less abundant, they're less emitted by our sun, but they're still present, and they still interact with the world. In particular, they interact very strongly with chemistry, such as environmental chemistry. So imaging spectroscopy was developed by NASA to tell us what Mars was made out of, then one day, they're like, let's turn this baby around and pointed at the Earth. And we discovered that it's quite applicable for vegetative spectroscopy. So telling us what vegetation is made of what the composition of the Earth is. And because plant disease impacts chemistry, so dramatically, plant physiology, chemistry, morphology, such a dramatic chaotic impact. It's a really excellent technology to use for early detection. So those subtle little changes that occur within a plant before it becomes diseased to the human eye, but it's undergoing that process of disease.

Craig Macmillan 3:12

Can you expand on that point? Exactly how does this work in terms of the changes in the plant that are being picked up by viewing certain wavelengths? What's the connection there?

Katie Gold 3:23

Consider the leaf, right. So plants are an amazing thing to remotely sense because they're designed by nature to interact with light. Now that's in contrast to skin right that's designed to keep light out plants are designed to have light go in and out, etcetera. So light will enter our atmosphere from the sun, and it will do one of three things when it encounters a plant, it'll be reflected back, it will be absorbed for photosynthesis, or it will be transmitted through the plant. And the wealth of that light is actually reflected back. And that reflected light can be detected by something as distantly placed as a satellite in orbit. And how that light is reflecting off a plant is determined by the health status of a plant. So a healthy leaf, right? It's going to be photosynthesizing. This means that it's going to be absorbing red and blue light for photosynthesis, it's going to have a lot of chlorophyll, it's going to be nice, bright and green, it's going to reflect back a lot of green light. And then it's going to reflect back near infrared light, because that is the sort of light that corresponds really well to the cellular structure of a leaf, right, so a nice healthy leaf is going to bounce back near infrared light. Now an unhealthy plant, it's not going to be photosynthesizing properly. So it's going to be absorbing less red and blue light. Therefore, it will be reflecting more of that red light back, it's not going to have a lot of chlorophyll. So it's going to reflect back less green light, and it's not as healthy. It's not as robust, so it will reflect back less near infrared light. So by looking at those subtle differences, and this is where we get back to that idea of hyperspectral. Right. hyperspectral is a word about how a sensor is measuring light. And hyperspectral means that a sensor is measuring light at such narrow intervals, that it's a near continuous data product. And this is in contrast to a multispectral sensor something Like NDVI that measures light in big chunks. The power is when you have continuous data, right? You could do more complex analyses you just have more to work with. And when you have discrete data, this is what makes hyperspectral sensors more powerful. It's how they're measuring the light, and often, that they're measuring more light that our eyes can see. But that's not necessarily a given hyperspectral sensors do not need to measure beyond the visible range, they can solely be focused on the visual visible range. Because once again, hyperspectral is a word about how the light is being measured. But we oftentimes kind of colloquially, so assign more value to it. But let's take that in combination, right. So you have a hyperspectral sensor that's measuring light and very, very narrow intervals near continuous data product, you're measuring seven times more wavelengths than the eye can see, combined together. That's how this works, right? So those subtle differences and those wavebands how they're reflecting both direct interactions with plant chemistry, you know, some certain wavelengths of light will hit nitrogen bonds go wackadoo and bounce back, all crazy. Otherwise, we're making indirect inferences, right, you know, plant disease as a chaotic impact of plant health that impacts lots of areas of the spectrum. So we're not directly measuring the chemical impact, right? We're not saying okay, well, nitrogen is down two sugars are up three starch XYZ, we're measuring that indirect impact.

Craig Macmillan 6:19

That's pretty amazing. And so...

Katie Gold 6:21

I think it's cool, right? Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 6:24

The idea here is that there are changes in the leaf that can be picked up and these other wave lengths that we wouldn't see until it's too late.

Katie Gold 6:34

Exactly.

Craig Macmillan 6:35

Okay. So it's a warning sign. That gives us a chance to change management.

Katie Gold 6:40

Ideally, so. Right, so it depends on with the scale at which you're operating. So now here comes another level, right. So if you're considering just that one individual plant, it's different from when you're considering the whole scale of a vineyard, right, you want your sensing to be right size to the intervention that you're going to take. So my group works with two types of diseases primarily, we work with grape vine viral diseases, as well as grape vine foliar diseases, for example, a grape vine downy mildew, which is an Erysiphe caused by a Erysiphe pathogen, and grapevine powdery mildew, which is caused by a fungal pathogen. Now the sort of intervention that you would take for those two diseases is very different, right? With a viral disease, the only treatment that you have is removal, there's no cure for being infected with the virus. Now, with a fungal pathogen or an Erysiphe pathogen like grape downy mildew. If you detect that early, there are fungicides you can use with kickback action. Or otherwise, you might change the sort of what sort of choice you might make a fungicide right. If you know there's an actual risk in this location, you might put your most heavy hitting fungicides there than in areas where there is no disease detected, or the risk is incredibly low, you might feel more comfortable relying on a biological, thereby reducing the impact. So given the sort of intervention, you would take, we want to right size, our sensing approach for it. So with grapevine viral diseases, when the intervention is so has such a vast financial impact, right removal, we want to be incredibly sure of our data. So we focused on high spectral resolution data products for that ones, where we have lots of wavelengths being measured with the most precise accuracy so that we can have high confidence in that result, right? We want to give that to someone and say, Hey, we are very confident this is undergoing asymptomatic infection. Now, on the other hand, with these foliar diseases, they change at such a rapid timescale that you're more benefited by having an early warning that may be less accurate, right? So you're saying, hey, this area of your vineyard is undergoing rapid change it might be due to disease might be because your kid drove a golf cart through the vineyard, however, we're warning you regardless, to send someone out there and take a look and make a decision as to what you might do. Ideally, we would have a high spectral resolution regardless, right? Because more spectrum or better, but the realities of the physics and the actual logistics of doing the sensing is that we don't get to do that we have to do a trade off with spectral spatial and temporal resolution. So if we want rapid return, high degrees of monitoring, and we want that high spatial resolution suitable for a vineyard, we lose our spectral resolution, so we lose our confidence in that result. But our hope is that by saying, Hey, this is a high area of change, and giving you that information very quickly, you can still make an intervention that will be yield successful response, right? You'll go out there and you're like, Oh, yep, that's downy mildew. Otherwise, like, I'm going to take my kid keys like he's out here, my vineyard again. Right? So it's, it's kind of work balancing, right. So we have the logistics of the real world to contend with in terms of using sensing to make to inform management intervention.

Craig Macmillan 9:36

This technology can be used or applied at a variety of distances if I understand everything from proximal like driving through a vineyard to satellite.

Katie Gold 9:48

Oh, yeah. And we've worked with everything.

Craig Macmillan 9:50

Yeah, yeah. And everything in between. I mean, could you fly over is a lot of companies that do NDVIs with flyover.

Katie Gold 9:55

You can use robots like we do.

We can use robots, there's all kinds of things we can do. Or what is a what is NDVI for the audience, even though that's not what we're talking about. You and I keep using it.

So NDVI stands for Normalized Difference vegetative index. It's a normalized difference between near infrared light reflecting and red light. And it is probably the most accurate measurement we have of how green something is. And it's quite a powerful tool. As you you know, we've been using NDVI for well over 50 years to measure how green the earth is from space. That's powerful. But the power of NDVI is also its downside. And that because it is so effective at telling you how green something is, it cannot tell you why something is green. Or it cannot tell you why something is not green, it's going to pick up on a whole range of subtle things that impact plant health.

Craig Macmillan 10:40

And whereas the kind of work that you're doing differs from that in that it's looking at different frequencies, and a higher resolution of frequencies.

Katie Gold 10:51

Exactly. So for the most part, we do use NDVI. But we use it more as a stepping stone, a filtering step rather than the kind of end all be all. Additionally to we use an index that's a cousin to NDVI called EDI, that is adjusted for blue light reflectance, which is very helpful in the vineyard because it helps you deal with the shadow effects. Given the trellising system Iin the vineyard. But yes, exactly. We, for the most part are looking at more narrow intervals of light than NDVI and ranges beyond what NDVI is measuring.

Craig Macmillan 11:22

What's the resolution from space?

Katie Gold 11:24

That's a great question.

Craig Macmillan 11:25

What's the pixel size?

Katie Gold 11:27

One of the commercial satellite products we work with has half a meter resolution from space.

Craig Macmillan 11:32

Wow.

Katie Gold 11:33

Yeah, 50 centimeters, which is amazing. Yeah, that was exactly my reaction. When I heard about it, it was like I didn't get my hands on this. But as I mentioned before, right, you know, if that resolution, we trade off the spectral resolution. So actually, that imagery only has four bands, that effectively is quite similar to an NDVI sensor, that we do have a little more flexibility, we can calculate different indices with it. So we use that data product, 50 centimeters, we use three meter data products from commercial sources. And then we're also looking towards the future, a lot of my lab is funded by NASA, in support of a future satellite that's going to be launched at the end of the decade, called surface biology and geology. And this is going to put a full range Hyperspectral Imager into space that will yield global coverage for the first time. So this satellite will have 30 meter resolution. And it will have that amazing spectral resolution about 10 day return. And that 30 meter spatial size. So again, kind of mixing and matching, you don't get to optimize all three resolutions at once. Unfortunately, maybe sometime in my career, I'll get to the point where I get to optimize exactly what I want, but I'm not there yet.

Craig Macmillan 12:41

And I hadn't thought about that. So there's also a there's a time lag between when the data comes in and when it can be used.

Katie Gold 12:48

Yes.

Craig Macmillan 12:48

What are those lags like?

Katie Gold 12:50

It depends. So with some of the NASA data that we work with, it can be quite lagged, because it's not designed for rapid response. It's designed for research grade, right? So it's assuming that you have time, and it's going through a processing stage, it's going through corrections, etc. And this process is not designed to be rapid, because it's not for rapid response. Otherwise, sometimes when we're working with commercial imagery that can be available. If we task it, it can be available to us within 24 hours. So that's if I say, Hey, make me an acquisition. And they do and then within 24 hours, I get my imagery in hand. Otherwise to there's a there's delays up to seven days. But for the most part, you can access commercial satellite imagery of a scene of your choosing, generally within 24 hours of about three meter resolution to half a meter resolution. That is if you're willing to pay not available from the space agencies.

Craig Macmillan 13:42

I want to go back to that space agency thing first or in a second. What talk to me about satellite, we've got all kinds of satellites flying around out there.

Oh, we do.

All kinds of who's doing what and where and how and what are they? And how long are they up there. And...

Katie Gold 13:58

Well, I'll talk a little bit about the satellites that my program is most obsessed with. We'll call it that. I'll first start with the commercial satellite imagery that we use. This comes from Planet Labs. They're a commercial provider, they're quite committed to supporting research usages, but we've been using their data for three years now. Both they're tasked imagery, which is half a meter resolution, as well as their planet scope data, which is three meter resolution. And we've been looking at this for grapevine downy mildew. Planet Labs, their whole thing is that they have constellation architecture of cube sets. So one of the reasons why satellites are the big thing right now they are what everyone's talking about, is because we're at this point of accessibility to satellite data that's facilitated by these advances in hardware design. So one the design of satellites you know, we now have little satellites called CubeSats that are the size of footballs maybe a little bit bigger.

Craig Macmillan 14:48

Oh, really?

Katie Gold 14:48

Yeah, yeah, they're cool. They're cute. You can actually like kids science fair projects can design a CubeSat now, fancy kid school projects, at least not not where I was. As well as constellation architecture. So this is instead of having one big satellite, the size of a bus, you have something like 10, CubeSat, that are all talking to each other and working together to generate your imagery. So that's how you're able to have far more rapid returns, instead of one thing circling around the planet, you have 10 of them circling a little bit off. So you're able to get imagery far more frequently at higher spatial resolution. And this is now you know, trickled down to agriculture. Of course, you know, what did the Department of Defense have X years ago, they've, I'm excited to see what will finally be declassified eventually, right. But this is why satellite imagery is such a heyday. But anyway, that's, that's the whole Planet Labs stick, they use CubeSats and constellation design. And that's how they're able to offer such high spatial resolution imagery.

Craig Macmillan 15:44

Just real quick, I want to try understand this, you have x units, and they're spaced apart from each other in their orbit.

Katie Gold 15:52

That's my understanding. So remember, I'm the plant pathologist here I just usethis stuff. So that's my understanding is that the physicists, you know, and NASA speak, they classify us into three categories. They've got applications, like myself, I use data for something, you have algorithms, which is like I study how to make satellite, talk to the world, right, like, make useful data out of satellite. And then there's hardware people, right, they design the satellite, that's their whole life. And I'm on the other side of the pipeline. So this is my understanding of how this works. But yes, they have slightly different orbits, but they talk to each other very, very like intimately so that the data products are unified.

Craig Macmillan 16:33

Got it. But there's also other satellites that you're getting information from data from.

Katie Gold 16:37

Yes, yeah. So now kind of going on to the other side of things. So Planet Labs has lesser spectral resolution, they have four to eight, maybe 10 bands is the most that you can get from them. We're looking towards NASA surface biology and geology data. And we use NASA's Avaris instrument suite, the family suite, that includes next generation, as well as brand new Avaris three, and this stands for the Airborne, Visible and Infrared Imaging Spectrometer. Now, this is an aircraft mounted device, but this is the sort of sensor that we'll be going into space. Additionally, we're just starting to play around with data from the new NASA satellite called Emit. Emit is an imaging spectrometer that was initially designed to study dust emission. So like, tell us what the dust is made out of where it's coming from. But they've opened up the mask to allow its collection over other areas. And Emit has outstanding spectral resolution, and about 60 meter spatial resolution. It's based on the International Space.

Craig Macmillan 17:32

Station. It's located on the International Space Station?

Katie Gold 17:36

Yes, yeah. And that actually impacts how its imagery is collected. So if you take a look at a map of Emit collections, there are these stripes across the world. And that's because it's on the ISS. So it only collects imagery wherever the ISS goes. And that's a little bit different from this idea of constellation architecture, have these free living satellites floating through orbit and talking to each other.

Craig Macmillan 17:56

Are there other things like Landsat 7, Landsat 8?

Katie Gold 18:02

Oh, we're on Landsat 9 , baby!

Craig Macmillan 18:04

Oh, we're on Landsat 9 now. Cool.

Katie Gold 18:05

Yeah. Yeah, Landsat 9 was successfully launched. I'm really excited about its data.

Craig Macmillan 18:10

And it's coming in?

Katie Gold 18:11

Just to my understanding, yes, so we don't use Landsat and Sentinel data as much otherwise, our focus is on that spectral resolution, but Landsat 9 and its its partner from the European Space Agency's Sentinel 2, they're truly the workhorses of the agricultural monitoring industry. Without those two satellites, we would be in a very different place in this world.

Craig Macmillan 18:32

Right, exactly. Now, you said that your work is funded partially or all by NASA?

Katie Gold 18:37

Yes, partially.

Craig Macmillan 18:38

So partially, so what is the relationship there?

Katie Gold 18:40

So before I started with Cornell, I was hired by Cornell while I was still a graduate student, and as part of their support for my early career development, they sponsored a short postdoc for me a fellowship, they called it I got to stay with a faculty fellow feel better about myself at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, where my graduate co advisor Phil Townsend had a relationship with so I spent nine months fully immersed in JPL. People think of JPL is like, you know, the rocket launchers, which they are, but they also study, you know, like some of those phase out and go out into the world. But some of the things they launched turn around and study the Earth, and they had the carbon and ecosystem cycling group there. So I was able to work with them, as well as the imaging spectroscopy group for nine months. And it completely changed my entire life just opened up the world to me about what was possible with NASA data, what was coming for potential use of NASA data. And it really changed the trajectory of my career. So I made connections, made friends got my first graduate student from JPL, that have truly defined my career path. So I work very closely with NASA, originating from that relationship, as well as I'm the pest and disease risk mitigation lead for the newly established domestic agriculture consortium called NASA Acres. So this is NASA's most recent investment in supporting domestic agriculture. Through this consortium we're funded to continue some of our research myself and my good colleague, Yu Jiang who's an engineer who builds me my robots. It's confounding our work continuously, as well as giving us the opportunity to try to expand our approach to other domains through interactions, one on one, collaborations with other researchers and importantly work with stakeholders. And this consortium, the Acres consortium is led by my colleague, Dr. Alyssa Woodcraft, based at the University of Maryland.

Craig Macmillan 20:20

Going back to some of the things that you mentioned earlier, and I think I just didn't ask the question at the time, how often does the satellite travel over any particular point on Earth?

Katie Gold 20:32

So it depends on the type of satellite design. Is it the big one satellite sort of design? Or is it constellation? Or the ISS, right? Like they think the ISS orbits every 90 minutes, something like that? So it really depends, but their satellites crossing us overhead every moment. I think at night, if you ever look up into the night sky, and you see a consistent light, just traveling across the world, not blinking. That's a satellite going overhead.

Craig Macmillan 20:59

Wow, that's amazing. Actually, are there applications for this technology on other crops?

Katie Gold 21:04

Oh, certainly. So yeah. Oh, absolutely. So the use of this technology for understanding vegetative chemistry was really trailblaze by the terrestrial ecologist, in particular, the forest ecologist because it's a, you know, it's how you study things at scale, unlike the vineyards would have nice paths between them for researchers like myself, and you know, us all to walk between forests are incredibly difficult to navigate, especially the ones in more remote locations. So for the past two decades, it really spear spearheaded and trailblaze this use, and then I work with vineyards for the most part, I'm a grape pathologist, I was hired to support the grape industry, they saw the research I was doing, they said, great, keep doing it in garpes. So I'm a reformed potato and vegetable pathologist, I like to say, but there's no reason at all why the work I'm doing isn't applicable to other crops. I just happened to be doing it in grape, and I happen to really adore working with the wine and grape industry.

Craig Macmillan 21:54

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That, it totally makes sense. How is this translating are going to translate for growers into grower practices?

Katie Gold 22:02

That's a great question. So the idea is that by trailblazing these functionalities, eventually, we'll be able to partner with commercial industry to bring this to growers, right. We want these this utility to be adopted for management intervention. But there's only so much one academic lab alone can do and the my role in the world is to trailblaze the use cases and then to partner with private industry to bring it to the people at scale. But the hope is that, you know, I want every venue manager to be looking at aerial images of their vineyards. Every day, right? I have a vision of interactive dashboards, maps of informed risk. One day, I want to have live risk maps informed by remote sensing. And I want every vineyard manager to be as familiar with their aerial view of their vines as they are with that side view of their vines. Right. And I think we're getting there sooner than you realize we're really at the precipice of this unprecedented era of monitoring or monitoring ability, right? And I'm really excited about what it will hold for management.

Craig Macmillan 23:02

And so you must have cooperators I'm guessing.

Katie Gold 23:05

Oh, I do. Yes. I've wonderful cooperators.

Craig Macmillan 23:08

At this stage. It sounds like we're still kind of in a beta stage.

Katie Gold 23:13

Oh, yes, very much in the beta stage.

Craig Macmillan 23:15

So I'm guessing that you're looking at imagery and spotting areas that would suggest that there's some kind of a pathology problem, and then you're going on ground truthing it?

Katie Gold 23:27

So yes, and no, it's more of a testbed sort of case study. We have nine acres of pathology vineyards here at Cornell, Agrotech, and Geneva, New York. And then we do partner with cooperators. We have wonderful cooperators based out in California, as well as here in New York. But those are for more on testbed sort of thing. So we're not just monitoring vineyards, and like watching them and say, Ooh, the spot appears here. We're doing more of a case studies where we intentionally go out and ground truth, then build those links between the imagery because we're not quite there yet, in terms of having this whole thing automated, we're still building those algorithms building that functionality. Now we've established proof of concept. You know, we know this works. So we're working on the proof of practicality, right? Building robust pipelines, ones that are that are resilient to varying environmental geographic conditions, right, different crop varieties resilient to confounding abiotic stress, that one drives us nuts. So that's the stage that we're at, but our collaborators and our industry stakeholders who partner with us. Without them the sort of work I do just simply would not be possible. And I'm extremely grateful for their part.

Craig Macmillan 24:29

So what, what is next, what's next in the world of Katie Gold and in the world of hyperspectral plant pathology?

Katie Gold 24:34

What's next for me is in a week, I'm boarding an airplane to go to Europe for a jaunt. I'm giving two international keynotes at plant pathology conferences about methods but what I really see as next for me is I really want to see the tools that technologies the approach that my group is using, percolate through the domain of plant pathology. We're such a small discipline, there's only about 2000 of us Around the world, in plant pathology, and you know, there's not even 10, great pathologist in this country, I can name every single one of them if you wanted me to. And I think I've got their number and my phone, really, I strongly believe we're at the precipice of such an exciting era in plant pathology, due to the availability of these imagery, these data streams, just simply an unprecedented era. And it will be a paradigm shift in how we ask and answer questions about Plant Pathology, because for the first time, we have accessible, accurate imagery that we can use to study plant disease at the scale at which it occurs in the field in real time. So I want to see these ideas percolate through the skill sets adopted, taken up and embraced and it we're seeing that start, you know, we're seeing that start, there's really excitement in plant pathology, about the use of remote sensing about GIS and that skill set in its value to our discipline. But I'd really like to see that expand. I think I am the first ever plant pathologist to receive funding from NASA Earth Science Division. When I started at JPL, they would introduce me as a disease ecologist, because no one had ever heard of plant pathology. And my wonderful colleague at JPL, Brian Pavlik, who's a JPL technologist, when we started working together, he had never once been into a vineyard. He didn't know about Plant Pathology, he was the one that called me a disease ecologist. And recently, I heard him explain the disease triangle to someone, which is, of course, the fundamental theory of plant pathology. And I was just so proud. But it also really represented this real excitement for me this embrace this acknowledgement of the challenges we face in plant pathology in these domains that otherwise have not heard of us, right and beyond the USDA, funding from NASA, just awareness from these other organizations, excitement from engineers, AI experts about solving plant disease problems. It's truly invigorating and exciting to me. That's where I see you going next. And I'm really excited about the future.

Craig Macmillan 26:51

There was one thing that you could say to grape growers on this topic, what would it be?

Katie Gold 26:58

Oh, that's such a great question. There's so much that I want to say.

Craig Macmillan 27:01

One thing, Katie.

Katie Gold 27:04

I would say your data is valuable and to be aware of how you keep track of your data, that the keeping track of your data, keeping your data organized, keeping, just having reproducible organized workflows will enable you to make the most out of these forthcoming technologies. It will enable you to calibrate it will enable you to train these technologies to work better for you, but your data is valuable, don't give it away to just anyone and to be aware of it.

Craig Macmillan 27:33

I agree wholeheartedly. And I think that applies everything from how much time it takes to leaf an acre of ground. And how much wood you are removing when you prune to when and how much water you're applying. Data is gold.

Katie Gold 27:49

Data is gold.

Craig Macmillan 27:50

It takes time and energy.

Katie Gold 27:52

Institutional knowledge. For example, my field research manager Dave Combs has been doing this job for over 25 years, I inherited him from my predecessor, and he trained our robot how to see disease in its imagery. And the goal of our robots is not to replace the expertise like Dave, but to preserve them right to preserve that 25 years of knowledge into a format that will live beyond any of us. So I see keeping track of your data keeping track of that knowledge you have, you know, you know, in your vineyard where a disease is going to show up first, you know your problem areas, keeping track of that in an organized manner, annotating your datasets. I'm starting to adopt GIS in a way just simply like, here are my field boundaries, even simply just taking notes on your in your data sets that are timed and dated. I think it's incredibly important.

Craig Macmillan 28:38

Where can people find out more about you and your work?

Katie Gold 28:41

Well, so you can visit my Web website or I've got a public Twitter page where you can see me retweet cool things that I think are cool. I tweet a lot about NASA I tweet a lot about Greek disease. If you want to see pictures of dying grapes come to my Twitter page, as well as Cornell regularly publishes things about me.

Craig Macmillan 28:57

Fantastic.

Katie Gold 28:58

So be sure to Google Katie Gold Cornell.

Cornell that's the key. Yeah, Katie go to Cornell or you might get an unwelcome surprise.

Craig Macmillan 29:04

And we have lots of links and stuff on the show page. So listeners you can go there. I want to thank our guest today.

Unknown Speaker 29:13

Thank you so much for having me, Craig. This has been wonderful.

Craig Macmillan 29:16

Had Katie Gould, Assistant Professor of rape pathology at Cornell agritech campus of Cornell University.

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In this week’s Marketing Tip we will make it easy for you to regularly create content that entices, educates, and inspires your audience.

If you’ve been following along with this series, you created a bank of powerful video and photo visuals last month. Today we’re going to share how you can use those images on your brand’s social media. If you missed the Tip, just search your podcast player for Sustainable Winegrowing podcast episode 194: The Power of Visuals: How Video and Photos Can Help Share Your Sustainable Story | Marketing Tip Monday.

I highly recommend taking a few minutes to link to today’s show notes. We are sharing real life social media examples from 3 SIP Certified brands and while I will do my best to describe the images, it helps to see them.

Stay tuned to the end to learn how the talent behind our social media, Hayli, creates captivating Reels.

How to Use Your Brand's Presence Regularly posting content on your social media keeps your brand in the eyes and minds of your followers.

It’s a good idea to stay active on your business’s social media accounts, but the idea of constantly creating fresh content can be daunting.

The good news is, there is an endless supply of content for your brand.

Have you heard of food disconnect? It's a term used to describe the average consumer's lack of knowledge about where their food comes from and how it's made. When it comes to wine, most people only see the finished product in the bottle.

What may seem day-to-day to you is unique and exciting to consumers. Most wine drinkers do not get to see punch downs, bud break, staff tastings, cover crops, barn owls, or bottling lines. It is all exciting!

Use your brand's presence on social media to give an intimate look at all of the care that goes into taking your customers' favorite wines from the vine to the tasting room.

Here are 3 examples from SIP Certified brands:

Enchant & Entice Villa San Juliette (@villasanjuliette) created a video mash up showing exquisite views of the vines from the tasting room, beautiful Spanish inspired architecture, the crew harvesting grapes into bins, and a table of sumptuous food and wine pairings. Each of these videos could have started out as a standalone post then combined later into one video to tempt followers to pay them a visit this season.

Look at your past posts. Can you combine the images into one reel or carousel that showcases your brand?

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We asked her for her top 3 tips to create captivating Reels – these are the short videos, often featuring text and catchy tunes that you see on Instagram. Here’s what she said:

A Word on Reels “While I love carousels, infographics, and even simple and beautiful photos, Reels bring content to life. Reels offer a unique way to showcase content and allow viewers to feel like they're right there with us, experiencing everything in real-time.” – Hayli Macomber

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If I hear music in a Reel that catches my attention, I save the audio (at the bottom right of every Reel with audio, there is a small square image – you can click on it and save the audio for later).

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Tip: To build a good audio collection, spend 10 minutes each week scrolling through Reels and saving audio.

Timing. Music creates the flow of a Reel – I like to change from clip to clip with the beat.

It's also good to make sure none of the clips are too long in comparison with the others (i.e. one is 10 seconds and the next one is 3 seconds). If you have a longer video, try splitting it up – use the clips in different sections of the Reel.

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What makes Sour Rot so challenging for wine grape growers is that it is a disease complex. Hans C. Walter-Peterson, Viticulture Extension Specialist, Finger Lakes Grape Program, Cornell Cooperative Extension explains that Sour Rot comes in late season after ripening. Yeasts get into the berries and ferment the sugar out in the vineyard. Bacteria follow up, feasting on the alcohol, converting it into acetic acid – an unwelcome component in winemaking. And, the disease is spread rapidly by fruit flies.

In this interview Hans shares methods to reduce Sour Rot disease pressure by managing increasingly resistant fruit fly populations, leafing to encourage fewer berries at fruit set, the correct way to drop fruit, and timing antimicrobial and insecticide sprays to Brix to maximize effectiveness.

Cornell Cooperative Extension is trialing non-chemical control practices including UV light for sterilization and hormonal sprays plus a disease model is under development with Penn State University.

Resources: * 17: New Discoveries about Sour Rot – Megan Hall (Podcast) * 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light - David Gadoury (Podcast) * 159: Under-Vine Vegetation to Control Vine Vigor – Justine Vanden Heuvel (Podcast) * Alice Wise, Cornell Cooperative Extension * Control of Sour Rot via Chemical and Canopy Management Techniques * Hans Walter-Peterson, Cornell Cooperative Extension * Hans Walter-Peterson ResearchGate * Influence of timing and intensity of fruit zone leaf removal and kaolin applications on bunch rot control and quality improvement of Sauvignon blanc grapes, and wines, in a temperate humid climate * Insecticide Resistance in Drosophila melanogaster (Diptera: Drosophilidae) is Associated with Field Control Failure of Sour Rot Disease in a New York Vineyard * Managing Fruit Flies for Sour Rot * Summer Bunch Rot (Sour Rot) Pest Management UC IPM Pest Management Guidelines * Wendy McFadden-Smith, PhD., Ontario

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Here with us today is Hans Walter-Peterson. He is a viticulture extension specialists with the Finger Lakes Grape Program, part of Cornell Cooperative Extension. Thanks for being our guest today.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 0:12

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Craig Macmillan 0:14

You've been doing a lot of work on a situation I'll call it called Sour Rot on grapes. And that's what we're gonna talk about today. Let's start with some basic definitions. What exactly is Sour Rot?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 0:24

So sour rot is pretty much what it sounds like. It's one of the late season rots that can afflict grapes comes in after ripening starts so much like Botrytis, bunch rot some of these other types of rots that that growers might be familiar with. So it's another version of that, but it comes along with the bonus of acetic acid, every rot kind of brings its own different compounds to the party. Sour rot brings one that really is not terribly welcome in winemaking, you know, essentially the the main component of vinegar. It's a particularly rough type of rot. We really are getting some more challenging years with it past several years. So my program has really started to focus in on what we can do to try to keep it under control.

Craig Macmillan 1:09

You know, I understand that part of the issue here. Is that sour rot is a disease complex. There's multiple actors involved in all of this. Can you tell us what some of those pieces are of that complex and how they interact to create sour rot?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 1:23

Yeah, it's probably the thing that makes sour rot a more difficult thing to manage than kind of the standard diseases, the regular diseases that most growers are used to dealing with like powdery mildew, downy mildew, because those are created those are developed by one type of microbe. So if you find the one thing that can control that one microbe, you've got a control measure. With sour rot it's a like you said it's a complex of multiple organisms that bring it about. So basically, there are yeasts, the yeasts get into the berries and take the sugar that's being developed in there, and they do exactly what we use yest for in winemaking takes the sugar and turns it into alcohol. So we'd get a fermentation starting within the berries out in the vineyard. The second part of it that happens then is that there are bacteria that follow up and also arrive in there most notably Acetobacter, but also some other things like Gluconobacter and Henseniaspora. This is some great work that was done by Wendy McFadden-Smith in Ontario a number of years ago. So they all kind of come in and feast on that alcohol and convert that alcohol into acetic acid. So thereby there's the sour of sour rot. The piece that comes after that, then is not just the sour rot. But then the thing that probably is really characteristic of it also, as with some of these other rots, but it spreads really quickly in a vineyard if the conditions are right. And that's mainly done by fruit flies. And it's not just the one that we've been hearing a lot about lately, the Spotted Wing Drosophila, Drosophila suzukii but it's also just your plain old Drosophila melanogaster, the ones you used in your your high school genetics classes, or college genetic classes and see on your fruit around the sink and stuff like that. Those fruit flies, for the most part, mostly fruit flies are a couple of other suspects in the mix, too. But they're the ones that spread it from berry to berry and cluster to cluster and block the block.

Craig Macmillan 3:13

Are they spreading the yeast, the bacteria are both.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 3:16

All of the above.

Craig Macmillan 3:17

Okay, so that's it,

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 3:18

They're gonna freeride. So that's, that's the difficulty with it. If it was just, you know, like I was saying earlier, if it's something like black rot, or botrytis, where it's just one single causal organism, that's one story. And that's hard enough to control when you've got multiple types of organisms that aren't even directly related. I mean, yeast and bacteria are very different types of organisms, for example, we don't have a spray or a single thing that control that. And so that's the real difficulty with managing it year in and year out.

Craig Macmillan 3:48

So this just made me think of something. One way of thinking about disease complexes is if I can remove one of the elements, or two of the elements I can at least reduce if not prevent or treat the disease is that the case with sour rot if I had no bacteria, if I didn't have a yeast or something like that, can I get rid of one of them and and help with this?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 4:09

Yeah, that's that's a really good point. As I said earlier, you need the two micro organisms to cause the sour of the sour at the acetic acid development, but then you need a vector to move them through the vineyard. And that's the fruit flies. So if you can control the fruit flies, you have less chance for those microorganisms to move through the vineyard. If you create a less hospitable host for the microbes, there's less of them to be moved around by the fruit flies. So the management strategies that we're looking at are trying to come at it from both directions. Some of the original work that was done on this recently here at Cornell by a grad student, Dr. Megan Hall, who I believe you had on the show a while back.

Craig Macmillan 4:50

I had in the show, and I know her yes.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 4:53

In Megan's original work here at Cornell. She basically found that it was somewhat more effective to control the fruit flies than to control the microbes that just the microbes by themselves could cause a certain amount of rot. But then if you're controlling the fruit flies, it just you don't get that explosive growth.

Craig Macmillan 5:10

The fruit flies in the gasoline.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 5:12

Right. Exactly. Yeah. The microbes are the fuel. Yes. So that was the impetus of kind of saying, Okay, if you had a control just one thing, it's the fruit flies, because that's really where the explosive nature of the disease comes along. And it's a little bit easier to control a bug than it is microbes that are hiding inside the skins of berries and things like that.

Craig Macmillan 5:31

Where do the microbes come from? are they hanging out under the bark of the vine? Are they inside of shoots? Are they out in the environment and get blown on?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 5:43

They're pretty ubiquitous in the environment, talk about a lot about Native fermentations and yeast coming in from the vineyard. So there's so they're there. And the bacteria are as well, I don't know, it's some of the exact overwintering mechanisms. And if we know all about that, somebody probably does, I just don't, but it's my understanding is they're they're pretty native in our neck of the woods. They just, they're they're pretty much all the time.

Craig Macmillan 6:05

Are there environmental conditions that are particularly conducive to promoting Sour Rot. And then also are there environmental conditions that will prevent it or retard it?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 6:16

So the big thing that gets sour rot going is for some way for the microbes to get into the berries in the first place. Predominantly in grapes, we think about that as either being insects, birds, or water. Here in the east, obviously, we get rain throughout the growing season, including during the harvest season, we have high humidity days, plenty of times. And so those are the kinds of conditions where we see greater incidence of sour rot develop. When the vines take up water, or the berries take up water either through rainfall or just the atmosphere, and then the berries swell up, they can't handle all the water they have and they split or you have a very tight clustered variety, that just the berries start getting forced apart, and they just break by force. So those entry wounds however they're caused, is how it gets started. So we know here in New York that if we have a dry fall days, with not many days with dew points above 70, and all those kinds of things, we don't see very much sour rot develop, we might see a little Botrytis here and there. But for the most part, we don't see it. And a lot of that is because we just don't have the humidity to kind of build up the water in the berry to cause it split the years where we have it bad. On the contrary, that's that's when we see more water, more rainfall, more high humidity days, that's when we see more splitting and therefore more sour rot. Much like most other diseases, the warmer it gets, the faster it can progress. And the same thing with insects, the fruit flies at a at a lower temperature. It takes them longer for a next generation to develop. And so the warmer it gets, they get faster too. So yeah, so warm and wet.

Craig Macmillan 7:55

So cool and dry would be the opposite would be the desirable.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 7:59

So that would be best.

Craig Macmillan 8:01

That actually that just reminded me of something. My experience has all been on the Central Coast California. This only happened once. And that was with some Pinot Noir that came in that had quite a lot of Botrytis damage. And the winemaker had us go through and sort then not simply sort out Botrytis and throw it away, but by hand sorted and then smell it for sour is something like Botrytis or a scar from powdery mildew or something like that. Is that Is that also a possible entry for the organisms?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 8:33

Yes, very often we see Botrytis and sow rot in the same cluster. Because it's the same thing. Botrytis is a very weak pathogen, it needs a place to kind of get established like a wound. And so same thing with sour rot. We do know that, like you're just saying powdery mildew scars can create micro fissures in the skin. And later on in the season, those can start to tear apart even if you can't see them, especially around the pedicel near the stem where the stem connects to the berry. They're going to be micro fissures that those micro organisms can take advantage of as well. So those conditions are pretty similar for for other kinds of rots as well.

Craig Macmillan 9:11

Are there cultural practices or preventative or prophylactic practices that growers can use that might help manage this?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 9:17

Yes, probably the biggest one that we know of and we're trying to get a little bit better handle on as far as how to use it for this purpose. So we know that if you pull leaves before bloom are right at the very beginning of bloom, you will reduce berry set you basically kind of starve the the clusters, the flowering clusters of carbohydrates and other nutrients and so they don't set as many berries. You have a looser cluster. Those clusters don't swell up they don't like I was talking before kind of force berries off, they dry out faster. All the good things we like about looser clusters pulling leaves at that very early, just pre bloom or very early bloom stage can reduce berries set pretty consistently year in and year out. out and help to reduce that cluster compactness aspect of rot development.

Craig Macmillan 10:05

I think it's the first time I've ever heard of a intentional shatter. Usually we're all we're all praying that we don't have what you're describing.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 10:14

Yeah. Well, I mean, you think about table grape growers do this fairly often, they try to make more room on the cluster so that they can have larger berries, which consumers want. And so we're not worried about it. obviously, for consumer sentiment, we're worried about that for disease pressure, there's definitely a cost to it. You're reducing your yield as a grower from the standpoint of just how many grapes you're going to carry. But you also might be saving more yield later on in the year and not having to drop fruit before you send it off to the winery

Craig Macmillan 10:40

In your area. You've got wine grapes, obviously, but also there's a lot of Concord production there. And is it mostly for juice is that right?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 10:48

Mostly for juice, yep.

Craig Macmillan 10:49

I'm assuming this problem applies there as well.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 10:52

Concords really don't get sour rot very much, partly because their clusters more open, they don't set a tight cluster. If you think like a Pinot Noir cluster, or Chardonnay, or Riesling, they're much more loose like that. They also have much thicker skins, so they tend not to split quite as easily, they can still split, but we tend not to see sour rot develop on them. And I, I'm not totally sure why that is. But part of it from at least on a production level, a lot of our Concord gets picked before it gets much more than 16, 17 Brix. We know with sour with sour rot, we don't see symptoms start to develop until you get to 13 or 14. And I think that's partly a result of just how much sugar is in the berry, but also the relation of sugar and acid because microbes can't tolerate a certain acidic level of environment also. And so this is kind of an educated speculation right now. But I think that's part of the reason we don't see it in something like Concord and Niagara and some of these these juice varieties is that we pick it at a relatively low Brix, as opposed to wine varieties where we're picking 20 Plus.

Craig Macmillan 11:57

Right, right, exactly, exactly. Continuing on the cultural thing. I one thing that growers do for both try to fend for grape powdery mildew. They may go through and they may drop infected crop when they first see it. This sounds like this gets spread around, can you crop drop with this and control the spread?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 12:17

The challenge with this is if and I've seen this happen in a couple of places. If you drop crop that's starting to rot and just leave it on the ground near the vines. What does it do when it's on the ground? It continues to rot. Right? It doesn't it doesn't stop and the fruit flies can easily go from the ground back up to the canopy and back down to the ground back up to the canopy.

Craig Macmillan 12:35

Find another Fissure or whatever.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 12:37

Right, exactly. So another part of the challenge that is ideally you're not just dropping the crop and leaving it there in the vineyard, you got to kind of take it out so that it's not around that healthy fruit. Because otherwise those microbes will be back. You know, they get blown around on wind again or carried by fruit flies. And they'll find another fissure to get into.

Craig Macmillan 12:57

Can you cultivate it? Can you can you tell it under?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 13:00

You probably could. Yeah, we don't do that much tillage in our in our vineyard rows just because we have all the rain we maintain cover crops between the vineyards all year round. Otherwise we'd slide all over the place.

Craig Macmillan 13:11

Yeah, no, absolutely. Of course. Yeah. I've talked to Justine Vanden Heuvel about undervine cover cropping and things and I was like, This is crazy. Going to California perspective. That's nuts. And she was like, Craig, you have no idea how much water is in the ground. It would be a mess if we didn't which is which is really interesting. So okay, so that's not gonna work. Do we have anything in the chemical realm for prophylactic sprays?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 13:33

Prophylactics per se not so much what we've been looking at lately, a colleague of mine out on Long Island Alice Wise for about three or four years now we've been looking at a couple of materials that are designed to enhance the cuticle thickness around the berries basically as a way to try to see if we can prevent cracking. One of them was originally developed to reduce cracking and cherries.

Craig Macmillan 13:54

What materials are we talking about?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 13:56

So the material we've been working with is a combination of materials, some waxes and carbohydrates and some other things that kind of just bind to that cuticle around the berry and just thicken it up. Literally from everything I've seen, it works in cherries to prevent this cracking. We've been looking at two versions of these, this material they both developed at Oregon State actually one produces a thinner cuticle and other one produces a much thicker one. And we've tested them both. And we haven't seen any difference in sour rot from using these materials. Now we've had kind of some kind of weird years when we've been testing this, we've had a couple of years where we had a lot of sour rot and a couple of years where we had almost none. So it it hasn't been the best time to be testing this. But in the two years that we've had sour rot, it didn't seem to do very much in the way of reducing it to the point that you could justify spending, you know the time and effort to do it. The only other kind of sprays that we're looking at at this point are things like hydrogen peroxide and proxy acetic acid, then there's some there's some commercial products that are out there that contain one or both of those ingredients. And those are basically just antimicrobials I mean, they they burn whatever they touch. You know, same thing like when you get a cut on your arm, you put hydrogen peroxide on there it disinfects. So that's basically what we're doing for the microbes. And it works pretty well. The key always is coverage, because it has to hit it. As soon as that material hits, hits that grape hits a microbe, whatever, it starts to convert to water, basically those those materials, if you don't have good coverage, if you can't get the material to where the microbes are hanging out, it's not going to be terribly effective. And so that's the that's always the challenge with those kinds of things. But they they do work to the extent that they can reach.

Craig Macmillan 15:36

To some extent, yeah, and again, this is going to be another issue with cluster architecture. Obviously, this is terrifying. As I'm sure everybody in the state of New York and elsewhere, certainly not limited to New York, New York, as far as I know. Okay, now I've got it. It's getting started. Maybe I caught it early, maybe I didn't know what what can I do?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 15:59

The standard treatment that we have at this point is that either when you get to that 13, 14 Brix number or you start to see it show up, and most growers will wait until they see it show up. The standard practice is basically to start this combination of an antimicrobial and an insecticide to kind of keep it under control and try to keep it from getting to that explosive stage. The challenge with that is that fruit flies under the right conditions. And if it's above 70 degrees or so they're generation time is every six to seven days.

Craig Macmillan 16:33

Oh, wow.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 16:33

New generation of these things at their at their utmost or at their best. Essentially, we need to be spraying every seven, eight days to try to keep this under wraps. What we've found, and this is more good news, what we found is that we are identifying a lot of populations of fruit flies here in New York, not just in the Finger Lakes, but in some other areas that we've been testing to where their fruit flies have quickly developed resistance.

Craig Macmillan 16:59

That's how they do it, isn't it.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 17:00

And so what we've seen is that basically the fruit flies have developed resistance to a couple of these materials. We've tested them on a couple of different pyrethroids, a couple of organophosphates, a couple of other materials and found pretty high levels of resistance in the lab, at least, when we've tested them. It has pointed out to us very quickly that this is not a problem that that chemistry alone can solve. All right, there we go. Okay, that's kind of leading us in the direction of maybe not necessarily replacing chemicals completely. It'd be nice if we could, but at least supplementing some of these other cultural and non chemical practices like the leaf pulling, I was mentioning earlier to try to reduce the need for those sprays, if, again, if not eliminate it all together.

Craig Macmillan 17:42

And so what kind of research projects do you have going right now on this topic?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 17:44

We've got a few that we're that we're kind of looking at, again, kind of tackle this from a couple different directions, we're doing some a little bit more work on that leaf pulling aspect, we've done some work, my colleagues and some other people in around the country have looked at mechanical leaf removal at that pre bloom stage and found that it works pretty well as well. There are certainly hormonal sprays that can be used. We mentioned with like with table grapes, tuberculinic acid can be used to to kind of stretch the racus and give the berries more room basically. So it kind of reducing that cluster compactness. And one of the things that I'm particularly kind of interested in and excited about is the potential for UV light to play a role in this.

Craig Macmillan 18:25

I am curious about this UV light thing, I'm hearing more about it and I'm getting kind of excited.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 18:31

UV light is basically just another sterilant that we use. So almost all of our wastewater treatment plants have UV light to sterilize the waters that's coming through the plant. So it does the same job that these hydrogen peroxide peroxy acetic acid materials do, but we don't have to worry as much about coverage. If we apply it right. One of the pathologists here, Dave Gadoury, has done a lot of work on using UV light to control different plant diseases in grapes, normally powdery mildew, which is very effective against, but one of the things that they found kind of along the way is that they were also reducing sour rot in this test plot that they were working in. And so if again, if you kind of think about it, you're if you use the right dosage and the right retention time and da, da, da, you're basically have an antibiotic material, but it's not a chemical. It's a physical one, I'm very interested in looking at the potential for UV light to not only control powdery mildew, which would be a lovely thing, which is, but also can we use it to minimize the sour rot incidents and those microbes that are causing it, as well. So we've got a small trial is kind of a proof of concept thing we've done last year, and now this year, if it works as well as it did last year, we're going to kind of try to expand that work a little bit further and try to see how do we incorporate that into a potential grower practice, you know, how, how often do you need to do it? What's the what's the light intensity? Do you have to do it a day or at night, which is one of the considerations you have to have. So There's a bunch of things that we still need to look at, to turn it to make it something that growers can be really rely on as a potential possible part of this solution. That UV thing is really kind of exciting to me. We also are a little further down the road, we're really trying to work on with some folks at Penn State and a couple of other places on developing a model based on climatic conditions that promote sow rot. So it just kind of can we predict when it's going to be coming, if we know that we're going to have five days of 80% humidity or whatever, there was actually just a really interesting study that's come out of Uruguay that I just heard about a couple of weeks ago at the GiESCO conference that was held here in Ithica, where they saw an impact on bunch rots, they were looking specifically at Botrytis, by having undervine cover crops, where they had those underground cover crops, they saw less Botrytis and less bunch rot than they did where they had like a weed free herbicide strip. So that's something I'd like to follow up on as well, I'd be curious about and then kind of the I won't even say sci fi because this stuff seems to come along so quickly. Now. We work with a couple of really wonderful pathologists and engineers here at Cornell, I was talking to a couple of them about this last year. And they said, I bet it'd be pretty easy to develop a sensor that we could stick out in the vineyard that could detect acetic acid far earlier than any nose could and just be like, Okay, here's your early warning. You know, it's kind of an early warning sensor, it's starting to develop, let's go find it and and try it, see if we can prophylactically take care of it early on. So there's just some some things that we're starting to bandy about as far as kind of further down the road. But I do think kind of the immediate thing that I would really like to are trying to put together is can we take the practices like UV light, loosening cluster architecture, changing cluster architecture in order to reduce that environment that's promoting sour rot? And then also try what can we do on the chemical end to reduce the need for those sprays?

Craig Macmillan 21:50

Right, right. So there's some stuff coming down the pike here, that's really good. That's really, really great. And thank you and everybody else who's working on this. How big of an economic impact is this for folks?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 22:00

It can be one of the most significant economic diseases in grapes. In 2018, we had a particularly bad year here. And I know some growers who had to drop almost half their crop of Riesling on the ground before the harvesters came through. And so if you think about a three to four ton average crop, that's a few $1,000 an acre that you're losing. So I mean, no diseases are good. But I mean, that's a pretty profound one. And again, as I was saying earlier, the thing that's so hard about it is that you've already put almost all of your work and money into that crop all the way from pruning to spraying and all the handwork and everything. And then in a bad week, to all of a sudden, just as somebody called it go to snark my favorite descriptions of sour rot seems like the perfect word for it. It's just it's a really kind of a, obviously financially, but kind of almost as much emotionally devastating feeling.

Craig Macmillan 22:57

If there's one thing, message piece of advice. One thing that you would tell growers on this topic, what would it be?

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 23:05

I'd say probably the biggest and easiest thing you could do right now, to reduce sour rot is that early leaf pulling, we just know that cluster architecture, it makes a big difference in how much rot develops, you might still get some, but it won't be nearly as profound and prolific as it would be otherwise, we have just as a very quick example of it, we have a hybrid variety here called Vignoles we use in all of our sour rot studies, because if you just say the words and it gets sour Rot. Some work that's been done by some colleagues of mine, and some folks at USDA, they basically come up with, they've created two loose clustered clones of Vignoles and so those clusters, obviously, are much less compact than the kind of the standard one. And the amount of disease that is in those clusters is drastically lower than what's in kind of the standard, the standard clone of Vignoles. It's one of those things that just kind of is really illustrative when you see it and just kind of realize that, you know, again, you can still find a few berries here and there that'll have it but you just won't see this entire two panel stretch that's just kind of wiped out by it or whatever doing that that leaf pulling to kind of open up the clusters, I think is probably the right now the biggest thing you can do.

Craig Macmillan 24:19

Interesting. Well then we're running out of time. I want to thank our guest, Hans Walter-Peterson viticulture extension specialist at the Finger Lakes grape program, part of Cornell Cooperative Extension. fascinating conversation, keep up the good work. I think a lot of people are depending upon you.

Hans C. Walter-Peterson 24:38

We're doing what we can see. It's becoming a bigger and bigger problem with climate change around here. We know we've seen it increasing in recent years. So yeah, it's it's one we'd really like to get our hands around better.

Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

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Variety is the spice of life! It's crucial to keep this in mind when we look at monocrops like wine grape vineyards. The good news is, SIP Certified vineyards protect natural habitat and encourage biodiversity.

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Chad Foster, Operations Manager of Maverick Farming, says that what originally began as a way to be more effective with their budgeting, reducing tillage practices and allowing native grasses to flourish as cover crops have promoted root growth and better vine health in the vineyards they manage.

These reductions in tillage encourage beneficial soil microbes and insect populations to establish themselves in these vineyards. Chad notices an uptick in lacewing and ladybugs where the cover crops have been allowed to flourish.

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In some blocks, disking and leveling are necessary due to vertebrate pests making grounds uneven, but Maverick decided to stop tilling just to till – their land didn’t have much of a need, as there weren’t many erosion issues. They no longer disc after harvest, and are able to take the money that was once spent on these efforts and either save it or move it to more pressing projects.

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References: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Habitat: Maverick Farming * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Maverick Farming * Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet * Safe Pest Management: Wolff Vineyards * SIP Smart Training online course * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story? * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team

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If you want science-backed earth, water, biological, and mapping data about your land, look no further than the United States Geological Survey. Geoffrey Cromwell, Geologists at USGS at the California Water Science Center shares what this nonregulatory agency can do for growers and delves into two studies on California water basins.

The USGS's mission is to investigate Earth sciences and make all research data available to the public. Studies cover floods, climate, earthquakes, volcanos, species, and geology.

The Adeladia Area Hydrological Study located in San Luis Obispo County California, aims to understand how water moves in this atypical basin. Researchers are using stream gauges and monitoring wells to better understand how water flow changes seasonally and if there are differences in areas included in the project.

In Northern Santa Barbara County California, the San Antonio Creek Study is developing a holistic hydrological model to support the region’s Sustainable Groundwater Management Plan (SGMA).

Resources: * Evaluation of Groundwater Resources in the Adelaida Area of San Luis Obispo County, California * Hydrogeologic Characterization of the San Antonio Creek Valley Watershed, Santa Barbara County, California * San Antonio Creek Hydrogeology Studies * Simulation of Groundwater and Surface-Water Resources of the San Antonio Creek Valley Watershed, Santa Barbara County, California * United States Geological Survey * Vineyard Team Library | Water

References: Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate * SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet * Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year * Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Geoff Cromwell, he is geologist with the United States Geological Survey at the California Water Science Center. And today we're going to talk about you guessed it, water. Thanks for being on the podcast, Geoff.

Geoffrey Cromwell 0:12

Absolutely happy to be here.

Craig Macmillan 0:14

Before I met you, I thought that the US Geological Survey made maps that you buy on paper. I've had many of them. And turns out, there's a lot more going on with that group. First, what is the United States Geological Survey?

Geoffrey Cromwell 0:23

I also had a very limited view of the USGS even when when I started working, I also have had to do some background on my own. And I've learned quite a lot, having been with the survey of what different people do and really that overlap, then at these different intersections of science. The USGS is one of the bureaus within the Department of Interior. And so this is under the executive branch. And what is unique about the USGS, among other bureaus within Department of Interior, is that the USGS has non regulatory. And so the USGS, really the mission is to investigate earth sciences, collect data, interpret the data, and then make all those data publicly available that then other agencies, the federal or state, or local or any other entity can then make decisions or action decisions. Based on the interpretive science that the USGS puts out. There's a quote that I pulled that USGS does Science in the Public Interest, the mission is to supply timely, relevant and useful information about the Earth and its processes. And so the earth and it's processing things very, you know, brought up to go. So not only do we do mapping, so topographic maps, geologic maps, there's just a whole swath of data collection and just digital map information available, but for water, floods, climate two, there's a whole breadth there, there are currently five science missionaries for the USGS. There's the mapping group, there's the biological arm focusing on Ecosystem Science. So there's a group in San Diego that studies a lot of frogs, the reptiles down there, energy and minerals. And so where are the mineral resources for the country? What are the economic and then natural environment impacts of identifying and extracting minerals? In my mind when I think of the USGS, even as I'm in the water world, is earthquakes and volcanoes. So there's the monitoring of natural hazards? And what are the effects of life and property that could occur from these natural and natural hazards? Lastly, is the Water Resources area and that's what I'm involved with. And what the California Water Science Center is a part of in this is to evaluate and monitor and interpret water resources of the nation so that we do monitor and collect data on streamflow, groundwater, water quality, water use and availability. So just how much is there? Where is it? And can you drink it? Can you irrigate?

Craig Macmillan 0:31

It sounds like this would be the kind of thing where you mentioned working with different entities that sounds like you would be working with all kinds of different institutions and scientific groups you work with, with universities, you go up to grant funding, how is this funded? And what are some of the other scientists that are involved in this stuff?

Geoffrey Cromwell 3:21

The USGS doesn't, you know, operate independently necessarily. So we do collaborate and coordinate with other universities, definitely other science branches of the government to find the intersection of what needs to be learned. And in a particular area, it could be a biologic, or water or geologic and so my, my training and expertise is in geology, and, you know, identifying and mapping the subsurface in three dimensions and those a direct intersection of that earthquakes and hazards. And then what I do in my job is intersect the geology with the groundwater system. So you know, the rocks, there's the water on the surface of the water in the ground, and it all kind of flows above and through the materials in the subsurface, you know, I work a lot to with my colleagues to understand the dynamics of the subsurface, and that allows for better understanding of, of the groundwater and then other surface water and how human dynamics are affected by that. Normally, local water districts, we work with universities, we work with companies, all to find the answer for what we're what we're trying to learn.

Craig Macmillan 4:27

So how exactly do you do that? I mean, you can put flow monitors and streams and things on the surface. Obviously, groundwater is underground, we don't see it. What is your job like? What, what do you do? How do you find things?

Geoffrey Cromwell 4:40

You picked on you know, in some ways, the first step of a study is collecting data, or even go back a step. It's still what is the problem? And so we will coordinate in the Water World Water Resources world at the USGS we have, in general a different business model than other parts of the USGS like the natural hazards folks and for earthquakes and volcanoes, a lot of other sciences have funded directly by Congress. And so they are you know, there's a there are a line item in the in the Congressional Budget. But in the water world, we are primarily funded through cooperative programs. So we work with counties, the state, other federal agencies, such as Department of Defense on military bases, we work a lot with the California Department of Water Resources as a state agency. And then for a local study here in San Luis Obispo County, and we're working with the county, and they are a cooperator in that study. So the first part is to talk to the cooperators. And in talking to them, what are their needs? What are they uncertain about? What are their concerns? Are they worried about contamination from pollutants? Are they worried about wells going dry? Are they worried about future management of water resources? So especially in California, where drought is an ongoing issue? Future sustainable management is a big question. So how can we help these other agencies think about their water resources?

Craig Macmillan 6:01

Which reminds me something so we're talking about California, and I met you through sounds bespoke County, but I'm guessing that this this kind of work is happening all over the nation? I would think.

Geoffrey Cromwell 6:10

yes, these types of investigations are happening all over the country. And you can think about just the geography of the nation where it's hot, and where it seems to rain a lot more than other places are going to have different water issues. And so different investigations are occurring via for water chemistry, or groundwater availability or surface water resources. And if you look just in within California, it can be a microcosm of the whole country where Northern California in general surface water resources are more plentiful versus Southern California, where the primary water concerns are groundwater based.

Craig Macmillan 6:43

How does this work proceed? You said you get to identify a problem and you were trying to cooperators then what what kind of tools do you have to investigate a problem?

Geoffrey Cromwell 6:52

I think we use the study in San Luis Obispo County that you and I partner on, we will for service water monitoring, we have stream gauges that are placed on selected streams. And there are instrumentation there that allows for continuous monitoring to the stage or the height of the water. And then that gets translated into a total volume or discharge of water that's moving through streams and you can track seasonal cycles, that's a value for groundwater, we can usually see the groundwater. And so we will take individual tape down measurements of groundwater wells. So groundwater well is basically a hole in the ground with a steel or PVC casing. And you can one can drop down a tape, which will be either steel tape or an electronic tape that will signal what the Depth to groundwater is at that location. At that time. If you do this over a broad enough area and over, especially continuously, you know, with regular readings, you get a sense of how groundwater levels change seasonally and whether they change seasonally, the same amount everywhere. Or if there's different dynamics within that particular study area that are affecting how groundwater flows.

Craig Macmillan 8:03

You also use water chemistry, is that right?

Geoffrey Cromwell 8:05

Yeah, water chemistry, both surface water and groundwater. And this can tell a lot about the aquifer system. So the water level measurements and surface water measurements we just mentioned, those are useful for basically the ups and downs of groundwater and to get a sense of the direction that, especially for groundwater, where groundwater is moving in the subsurface, the water chemistry can inform a lot about not only the direction of groundwater flow, it can inform about any contaminants, or in the cases of, you know, something to think about often that comes up as the presence of nitrates in the subsurface. So that can be related to agricultural fertilizers. That's something that can be observed, but also can tell about which types of rocks the water is flowing through. And so that helps us understand the aquifer system, the different earth materials in the subsurface go stepping way back to my geology training here is we can use this water chemistry to help us identify which geologic units are in different parts of the aquifer. And that is going to help us inform how the groundwater flows through the system.

Craig Macmillan 9:08

Are there other tools I remember a helicopter with like some kind of antenna hanging off the bottom of it. And I never understood what that was. But I think that's part of your project, isn't it?

Geoffrey Cromwell 9:19

Now we're getting into the geophysical work.

Craig Macmillan 9:21

Okay, let's go for it.

Geoffrey Cromwell 9:22

Comon joke in geophysics is, What do you want the answer to be? I love geophysicist. But geophysical tools are a way to sense the different properties of materials in the subsurface. So that helicopter that was flying had a big hoop underneath it, and this was an airborne electromagnetic system. So this helicopter flies over over the terrain, and in the signal that gets bounced back provides information on the resistivity or the electrical properties of the materials in the subsurface and so then different electrical properties can get tied to different geologic materials. So this is another way for us to map and understand this subsurface geology. It also is very sensitive to changes in salinity, saline water versus freshwater will have a different electrical conductance electrical properties, that type of system can also be used to track you know, the presence of saline water in the subsurface. And so that's another another tool there. So, in this Adelaida study, we're really getting on all these different types of data collection that then can eventually be used to interpret and holistically evaluates the hydrogeologic character of the of the aquifer here.

Craig Macmillan 10:30

What you're referring to is the Adelaida Area Hydrological Study, which is a project with San Luis Obispo County Board of Supervisors, I believe they're funding it or funding part of it. And let's just use that as an example. Obviously, we are involved in it, but I think it's a good case study. Overall, the kinds of things that you folks do tell us about that project. How did it start? What is it and what are you doing?

Geoffrey Cromwell 10:54

Yeah, Adelaida hydrological study is in northern San Luis Obispo County. And this was a study partnership or in cooperation with the San Luis Obispo County flood control and Water Conservation District there are a cooperator here, the Adelaida area is the west part of the city of Paso Robles. And this is a, you know, a highland upland kind of rolling hills. It's even some more sort of steeper mountain type terrain. So it is not a classical eluvial Groundwater eluvial Basin aluvium would be unconsolidated sands and gravels and some finer materials that tend to erode off the hillsides that will fill the cemetery depressions. That's often where a lot of agriculture and people live with water is extracted from these groundwater basins because water is historically more readily available. But in the Adelaida area, this is a relatively small population of local residents, there is been a presence of agriculture for some time, many, many decades.

Craig Macmillan 11:55

More than a century.

Geoffrey Cromwell 11:56

The county asked us to do this study to evaluate the groundwater resources and learn what we can do to concerns from from landowners about a potential overuse of water, concerns at some local wells might be going dry. And so the county wants to understand the groundwater system. And so it's a bit just typical of USGS. What are the data? What are the interpretations and make that information publicly available that then the county or any other entity can then make decisions on what actions to take.

Craig Macmillan 12:25

But how did that proceed? We've talked a little bit about the kinds of data that you collect. But what's the actual what was the actual timeline like and what's the future timeline like?

Geoffrey Cromwell 12:33

Projects started, we got funded just before COVID. So it was end of the very early 2020, I believe. And we spent that that first year of with the county, we said that USGS would compile all available data that we could find. And so this particular area because of the small population, you know, relative perceive low impact. There hadn't been any hydrologic or geologic studies in the area, besides some some broad geologic maps and regional geophysical investigations. So this was really an unknown, I should say, publicly unknown, because you'll local farmers and local residents who've been there for decades or centuries, they know what what is in on their land, and you have a sense of of the world there. So we were trying to compile we can from what we would use, and maybe in a report to help us just understand as we're coming in, what's the geology? What are changes in land use? What groundwater information is there that might be available to help us think about, okay, how do we then collect new data? Where do we go? What do we do? So we compiled data for a year and evaluate and learn just what we could have the area. Now we're on our second phase of the study, which is collecting groundwater level data, and surface water data and water quality data for a period of just about two years. And so we're taking groundwater measurements every three months. And we have a series of just about 60, groundwater wells that were that were taking water levels from all around the Adelaida area. And we are being able to see seasonal shifts in in groundwater, as you know, recharge generally occurs in the winter months with with rainfall. And then we also see in some places where water levels might be increasing more versus others. And so that'll be as we're collecting this data will be interesting that as we get to the interpretation phase, what does that mean?

Craig Macmillan 14:25

One thing that I think is interesting, so like you said, there's a kind of the classical groundwater basin idea, which in my mind is kind of a big bathtub. So everybody pokes a straw into the same Slurpee, essentially, and then rain falls and it refills but these mountainous areas and the rolling topography is a little bit different in like, for instance, in in the scope of this area that you're studying is all the water below the ground. Is it all connected, or is it isolated from each other? Or could it be I know you're really in your study.

Geoffrey Cromwell 14:53

What is likely to occur where we have these geologic structures with hills and folds is that you know, although There's groundwater is present everywhere, what will be interesting to see is how the structure of the geology affects where groundwater flows and is present. So it's possible someone coming in one valley, a person in a nearby valley may or may not see the effects of that pumpage in their groundwater wells. And so we have groundwater monitoring wells has dispersed across the areas, we were able to find the hope of identifying then whether or not different areas are connected, what the effects are between the shallow and deeper systems of the of the aquifer, based on the geologic structures. So it's really is this dynamic and complex question that we're looking to to learn more about.

Craig Macmillan 15:44

This is an idea that I just thought of, because it comes up in the local conversation, and that is, when water starts to become scarce. The solution in some people's minds is to drill a deeper well, just very expensive in the kind of geology you're talking about. That doesn't necessarily sound like that would work. Is that accurate statement? Or? Or even in a groundwater basin? Is there a limit to kind of how long that straw can be and still be be affected?

Geoffrey Cromwell 16:13

That's interesting question that would be on a probably a basin by basin or area by area question. In general, though, the deeper you go, the more poor the water quality can be. And that's not to say that 100 feet is great and 200 feet, it's going to be hyper saline everywhere. But groundwater basin dependent area dependence, the fresher, more usable water was going to be closer to land surface. And so that gets into the question of water quality. And so just by digging, drilling a deeper Well, there could be other impacts or concerns that one might have in drilling deeper.

Craig Macmillan 16:50

Water is not necessarily water everywhere. Oh, this is a question that someone asked me does water have an age? Can you tell when it fell from the sky?

Geoffrey Cromwell 17:00

Yes, that is one of the neat things to learn from either water quality samples that we get. So we test for and we'll go into water chemistry, we'll sample for major and minor ions, calcium, magnesium, sodium, we'll measure for nitrates. And those types of constituents are useful for identifying the aquifer system, what rock are we in, and that will collect the stable isotopes, hydrogen and oxygen. Those allow us to tell from what elevation or area to groundwater recharge. So you expect water to be coming in the mountains and flow down and we should be able to see that indicator in those stable isotopes. And then the two age constituents we usually measure would be for tritium. And then we'll also be for carbon 14. So carbon 14 is probably one that most people are aware of, or heard of, right, you take clean organic materials, and you can get a sense of age back to think about 50,000 years old. So we can directly measure can estimate of groundwater age, many groundwater basins in California, oftentimes, the water can be 10,000 years old or so oftentimes, much more. Than tritium is neat, because tritium allows us to tell if water has been recharged since about 1950. So tritium was naturally occurring in the atmosphere. But in the 1950s, during all the nuclear tests, tritium within is released in the atmosphere in great abundance. And so if tritium is present in groundwater, above background levels, we are very confident that that water recharge since 1950, we have these age measurements of groundwater, that you within a study area, we get a sense of where recharge is occurring, and whether it's recent recharge, or old or older recharge, and so that can help understand that aquifer dynamics,

Craig Macmillan 18:39

That's fascinating. Just blows my mind. Future timeline. So you're well levels, stream gauges, chemistry, this radiological kind of stuff, you're in the middle of the data collection, what's going to happen after that?

Geoffrey Cromwell 18:54

We're in the middle of our of our data collection, like you said, we have about one more year of groundwater level measurements that we will take as part of the current the current agreement with the county and then the surface water will also continue for just about another year. And then we're going to have conversations with the county to hopefully take the the next steps. And that could include additional, you know, ongoing groundwater monitoring, surface water monitoring, always value in developing these long term records. And so being able to track seasonal cycles, ideally decades, right? Because then you can really see how things are changing. So there could be value in continuing this monitoring effort. And then the next step would be to put up an interpretive product. And so basically take the data that we've compiled in look at the how the aquifer system changes, look at the age of the groundwater, look at the flow paths and maybe you know, understand if there are structural controls to groundwater flow. The next phase of our project will kick in probably early 2025. In the conversation with the county and possible we could we could start sooner the era Boerne em that we mentioned before the helicopter with a big hoop flying under that, we're using that right now to help construct a geologic framework. And so that's product that we should be able to, we anticipate being able to put out next year or so. So there will be some interim bits in there. But one thing is very important in the USGS does is that all the data we collect is publicly available. So as we go out, and we take our groundwater level measurements, that will be out again in August in the Adelaida. area, within a couple of days, that data is online, it is accessible, it is viewable by the anyone in the world can can go to our website and look at this data. And so the transparency of that is valuable, just just that real time knowledge of the Earth system is I think, hugely important, valuable.

Craig Macmillan 20:48

These wells and the streams and whatnot, they're gonna oftentimes be on private land. So you're gonna have to find participants that will let you come in and take your measurements. How did you go about recruiting participants? And also, I would guess that you would want to have wells in particular spots of interests to help you with your mapping your data collection, how did how did that process work?

Geoffrey Cromwell 21:14

There's a lot of initial interest in the study itself. From the get go, there were there was a pool of several dozen interested landowners who were more than willing to provide access to let us just access their property and, you know, take these groundwater measurements, and allow us to, you know, install stream gaging equipment on there, you know, we spent the first part of of our data collection, part of our agreement there, identifying additional landowners. And so some of this was was word of mouth, we've been holding at least once a year, a community meeting specific to the Adelaida study. And so we've garnered more interest and think as we've explained more what the study is and purpose and the outcomes and the projected outcomes in terms of reports, we've gotten more interest in that sense. And sometimes we're just out knocking on doors and looking for it, like you said, there are some some geographic holes, if you will, of where we either we can identify the landowner or the land owner says no, which is fine. But also, we just haven't had luck contacting or reaching out or finding anybody in those particular spots. So we're especially interested always in deeper wells, so anything you have, if you only have hundreds of feet deep, more than a few, but a well, more than 500 feet deep, we'd love to come back. That'd be definitely a value to it to the study. But we've had very good conversations with landowners across the Adelaida area, and some have granted permissions and some said no, and, you know, we say thank you, we keep moving. So it is ongoing. And I think it's we the next community meeting, hopefully will be this fall before the end of the end of the calendar year. And we'll be able to share some of our next set of studies, you know, outcomes, what we've done, and hopefully talk to folks and continue to identify geographic areas that we can use more data in.

Craig Macmillan 23:00

Cool, that's neat. Individuals within communities recognize the value to themselves, but then they also recognize and feel like they have a responsibility to the rest of the community. And I think it's pretty cool that we're seeing folks step up to be participants. And I encourage people nationwide if they're, if you're listening, and to not be afraid, I can speak for the company that I worked for Niner wine estates were a participant. When I first heard about this, I jumped, I jumped all over it. I was like, This is so cool. But also I had questions about our own property. Our location is such that there's lots of other neighbors, both residential and agricultural, but also we have wells in different different spots. And we could just look around and see, hey, is the geology between these wells? Is it the same? Is it different? What can we learn from what you guys learn? So there was kind of a two fold piece to that. And I think that that's really important for communities to do. We got a couple of minutes left, you're also working on a project in Santa Barbara County in the San Antonio Creek area. Can you tell us just just a little bit about that? Because that's a different kind of project.

Geoffrey Cromwell 23:00

Yes. Let me go back to the last thing you said about about participants. Yes, this is free. We it's paid for by taxpayer dollars. But these are essentially free groundwater level measurements and free water quality if we take water quality. So like you said, there's there's there's value in knowing what's under the ground in your well your spot. And if you're interested, then we might be able to accommodate, obviously, constraints and things from the study public interest.

Craig Macmillan 24:28

That's right USGS is here for you. Well, it's true. I mean,

Geoffrey Cromwell 24:31

Yeah, no, I was gonna say we're, we're with the government. We're here to help word.

Craig Macmillan 24:35

Yeah, exactly.

Geoffrey Cromwell 24:37

We really, we really are.

Craig Macmillan 24:40

And you folks have been great to work with, by the way. I really appreciate it. Yeah. So just a little bit, a little bit about the San Antonio Creek project.

Geoffrey Cromwell 24:48

The San Antonio Creek project. This is San Antonio Creek is the groundwater basin in Northern Santa Barbara County. And so that's a Santa Barbara County is the county directly south of San Luis Obispo. San Antonio Creek is a coastal groundwater basin. So to the west is the Pacific Ocean. And then to the east is the other Highland and upland areas. And this is a project in cooperation with the Santa Barbara County Water Agency and Vandenberg Air Force Base, there was recent legislation. And at this point about almost 10 years ago in the state of California called SIGMA, the Sustainable Groundwater Management Act. Part of SIGMA process was identifying groundwater basins of high and medium priority, those types of basins were required to by the state to develop groundwater sustainability plans to basically manage groundwater resources into the future. And this is one such basin, San Antonio Creek. And so our work USGS work here has been to provide this holistic hydrogeologic characterization of the groundwater basin. So looking at historical groundwater trends, current groundwater trends, identify the groundwater budget, so how much water is coming out how much water is coming in naturally, and then also to develop a miracle groundwater flow model. So that's pretty typical of a lot of our California Water Science Center availability projects is we we look at the geology look, the groundwater, okay, this is what's been happening. And then we feed that we develop a computer model of that. So the computer model is then a simulation of the earth as we can best understand it and model it in, which is neat, because then you can if you've modeled the historical system, then you can project into the future. And you can see like, Okay, what happens if the climate is drier? Okay, what if we're anticipating, you know, a two fold increase in population, we need to pump more for municipal needs? Or what if we're anticipating an increase in agricultural use is a tool to project changes, and then help identify how you can manage your water resources. So we develop those two products in San Antonio Creek, and I'll share both of those published sources with you.

Craig Macmillan 26:48

Yeah, that'd be great.

Geoffrey Cromwell 26:50

But since a creek is an agricultural basin, Vandenburg Airforce Base and the town of Los Alamos for the two municipal users, but primarily, you know, groundwater needs in the basin, this was for agricultural purposes.

Craig Macmillan 27:01

That is really interesting. And I liked this idea of looking ahead to the future, I think we need to be thinking ahead. And the way to do that is to get good quality data on what's happening now. And to get a sense of what may be happened in the past, if we can.

Geoffrey Cromwell 27:16

In San Antonio Creek, in the past, there's a long term record long term partnership there. And so we're very fortunate to be able to look at these decades long trends dating back to the mid 1900s.

Craig Macmillan 27:25

Oh, wow.

Geoffrey Cromwell 27:26

There were some that were very long term monitoring wells. And from that, you can learn a lot about that study. So this, I think that's very neat. If you're interested in learning more, this is a nice, compact little study here of investigation. We have ongoing work, keep updated.

Craig Macmillan 27:42

Cool. Well, we're getting short on time, is there is there one thing related to kind of this water topic in the USGS that one thing that you would tell people one thing you'd like growers to know,

Geoffrey Cromwell 27:53

The one thing for growers to know about the USGS is that the USGS is unbiased, it is nonpartisan, and most importantly, is that the data that we collect is publicly available not only allows people to access the data that's there, but it means that everyone can access it and then make decisions and see what the interpretive products are based off of here's the data. And so everything that USGS does is intended to be reproducible. It's intended to be shared, and it's in the public interest. And this is here, any number of datasets the USGS puts out, so if growers are interested in their local geology, local soils, local water, and local climate, and I'm sure there's many others there that people interested in, the USGS probably has a data set out there, or at least has historical records, you know, going to the USGS website, there's a lot of information on there, but you can find that data, you can also reach out to a local USGS office, and those are, we're all over the state many different capacities and one of us doesn't know the answer. We probably know someone who knows someone who knows the answer.

Craig Macmillan 28:58

And again, that would be nationwide. Nationwide, where can people find out more about you?

Geoffrey Cromwell 29:02

About me, the easiest would probably be to look at my contact on the Adelaida website, the Adelaidaa Area Project website and I'll share that with you Craig and I'm based out of our Santa Maria field office. This is in very northern Santa Barbara County. So I'm the Central Coast local California Water Science Center. We have our main project hubs are San Diego and Sacramento. And we do we do geology, we do groundwater. We do surface water, we do biology, we do modeling climate data collection, we touch a lot.

Craig Macmillan 29:29

USGS touches a lot of different things. I want to thank you for being on the podcast. Our guest today has been Geoff Cromwell, geologist with the United States Geological Survey, specifically the California Water Science Center. Thanks for being on podcast. This is great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to do it.

Geoffrey Cromwell 29:45

Loved to be here, Craig. Thanks so much.

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97% of people start their search for a local business online (Linkedin, 2019). When someone looks up your business, what do they find? Are your images and videos up to date? Do you show what makes your brand special? Does your imagery convince searchers to pay you a visit?

Now, if you are thinking that you do not love the photos that show up when you google your business, it may be time to update your imagery!

Your property is booming with interesting visuals that will entice future customers. Here are 3 categories to inspire your imagery refresh.

Showcase Your Values 70% of consumers want to know what the brands they support are doing to address social and environmental issues (Certus, 2019). Show them how your brand protects the people and the planet!

If you’ve completed your Sustainable Story worksheet, half of your work is done. Grab your worksheet and your camera to create a visual version of your story.

Electronic Worksheet | Printable Worksheet

Here's how to show your Sustainable Story: · Focus on one value per week. Share photos and videos throughout the week or compile them into one mega-post at the end of the week. This strategy gives you nearly two months of content for your social media, blog posts, and Wine Club communications.

· People love animals. Snap pics or videos of your wildlife visitors: bees, owls, butterflies, grazing sheep, or cattle. Your audience will love to see the diversity of creatures that call your property home.

· Feature your vineyard manager or winemaker. Ask them to explain what’s sustainable about the task they’re doing, and why it’s important. Helping consumers understand specific sustainable practices and why they’re important can increase their willingness to pay more for a wine (Kathleen Kelley, The Pennsylvania State University, 2021)!

Show Them a Good Time Have you ever visited your favorite business’s website only to realize the photos are outdated, or don’t sufficiently capture the atmosphere you know and love? Good imagery helps people to mentally put themselves in the space, and can ease anxieties they may have over entering a new environment.

Here’s how to replace outdated imagery to entice visitors: · Show off your romantic fireplace, mood lit cozy chairs, or a seating area overlooking the vineyard! Winetasting is an experience. A comfortable and inviting atmosphere makes all the difference.

· Hosting an event? Guests wonder how to dress and if there will be seating. Share pictures of your guests having a good time at your next event to give valuable insights to future attendees!

Take Them Behind the Scenes A day in the wine industry may feel ordinary to you, but it is absolutely fascinating to the average consumer!

“Food disconnect” is a term used to describe the average consumer’s lack of knowledge about where their food comes from. When it comes to your brand, most people only see the finished product: what’s in their glass. They don’t know about all of the time and careful consideration that went into its production.

Here’s how to show them: · Walk your audience through the block-to-bottle process with photos and videos. Create a series that spans the year, and feature each process as it happens.

· Give a glimpse into a day in the life! Show topping tanks, washing barrels, scouting for pests, a busy tasting room floor, and walking through the vines. Your audience will love a behind the scenes look at one of their favorite wine brands.

SIP Tip! Include the whole team in this project! Ask everyone to take pictures and videos of the things they find most interesting. You’ll have tons of fresh, unique media to feature.

SIP Tip #2 (because it's too good not to share)! Share your customers’ photos. User generated content is about as authentic as it gets. Sharing UGC has many benefits: it gives social proof to your audience, makes the creator feel part of your community, and gives you unique content!

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet * Safe Pest Management: Wolff Vineyards * SIP Smart Training online course * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story? * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team

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Cliff Ohmart, Principal of Ohmart Consulting Services reflects on his 40-year career in agriculture. Cliff seeded his career with a Ph.D. in Forest Entomology from Berkley University. He worked in forestry in Australia, as a Pest Control Advisor in Chico, with the Lodi Winegrape Commission, and at SureHarvest.

Cliff shares his experiences with sustainable winegrowing innovations including cover cropping, drip irrigation, solar energy, biocontrol, healthy soils, autonomous devices, and farm data management. Plus, he shares his number one tip for growers continuing on their sustainable journey.

Resources: * 25: Under-Vine Cover Crops * 27: 50 Years of IPM * 130: The Biological Control of Vine Mealybug Using Mealybug Destroyers and Anagyrus Wasps * Healthy Soils Playlist * Sustainable Winegrowing Self-Assessment (SIP Certified) * University of California Cooperative Extension

Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship – Make a Gift * SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet * Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year * Sustainable Winegrowing Education On-Demand (Western SARE) – Sign Up! * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Cliff Ohmart. He is principal with Ohmart consulting services. And today we're going to talk about a little bit of perspective on what's happened in the past. And what's looking forward to in the future in the realm of sustainable wine growing sustainable crops just kind of in general. Thanks for being on the podcast, Cliff.

Cliff Ohmart 0:16

You're very welcome, Craig. It's nice to be with you.

Craig Macmillan 0:19

Just as full disclosure, Cliff, and I've known each other a long time. It's been really fun to see the things that he's worked on over the years, and his insights into kind of what's worked and what hasn't. So again, thanks for being on the being on the program. You've been involved in a whole variety of different crops and led different capacities over the years with different projects I've been with you see, I believe, and then also in the private sector, but how did you first get involved in this kind of thing? How did you get involved in sustainable farming?

Cliff Ohmart 0:45

Yeah, I love that question. Because it wasn't deliberate at all. I was very deliberate in my education, I wanted to be a professor of forest entmology. So I got a degree a bachelor's degree in Forestry and Forest entomology and a PhD in forest entomology. And so basically, since it wasn't delivered, but unbeknownst to me, I got a very comprehensive education especially as undergrad in biology ecology, to pretty intensive program at the College of Forestry, Syracuse, and then going to grad school, again, insect ecology, Plant Pathology, things like that. And then I wanted to be a research scientist at a university. So the only job going at the time I got out was actually in Australia. So I spent 13 years as a researcher in forest entomology and again, but don't to me, all of this was really giving me a very, very solid background to get into ag. My family and I, after living in Australia for 10 years, to make a difficult decision to want to come home. And so I had two fellows that I went to grad school with who started an IPM company in Chico, California. Going to Berkeley for a PhD get a very strong background in integrated pest management. So IPM people, and that's how I got into ag and I was a pest control advisor for seven years. It was a very unusual company in that three PhDs doing PCA work.

Craig Macmillan 2:15

That is unusual.

Cliff Ohmart 2:16

Yeah, working, especially in the 1980s, early 90s is when I worked with them. So we were really out there, independent PCA company. So we charge for our services, we didn't sell products, the thing was that they are very big IPM guys, we worked in orchard crops, and we are all entomology type. So both insects and disease management, especially in almonds, had a great IPM program for almonds. So then being there led to a contract with the Lodi Winegrape commission to help them write a grant. And then if they got the grant, we would administer the grant for them in helping them develop their integrated pest management program for winegrapes. So we got the money, and I ended up in charge of that project. Interestingly, being such having such a strong background in pest management, I quickly realized compared to the crops I've worked on wine grapes at the time really didn't have, which I would what I would consider challenging pest management issues. Of course there was powerdy mildew, which people in Lodi were managing very well made sulfur applications. So all of a sudden, it's like, hey, why don't we actually focus on the whole farm. So using that IPM background of, you know, economically viable, socially, just and environmentally sound. Let's look at the whole farm. That's really how it developed. So very quickly, we started calling our program, a sustainable winegrowing program. And one thing led to another we developed a reputation for our progressive nature, quote unquote, progressive. You know, we were very practical farmers. So that's how I got into it. And I after the first year of working on that grant, they offered me a staff position. And I realized what a great opportunity, so I took it. So that's a long road to get to it. But what's interesting is, you know, that's we're talking about 30 years ago now. So I've been added a long time. But that's how I got there. It was for somebody that was so laser focused on what they thought they wanted to do. I never would have expected to get there where I ended up but of course, it's been fantastic because you know.

Craig Macmillan 4:30

It's all about the journey. Yeah, you know, most of the most of us end up in places we never expected.

Cliff Ohmart 4:36

That's one of our mantras in Lodi is sustainable farming is not about crossing the finish line. It's about journey. And because you're never going to be there, you know, it's very almost Zen.

Craig Macmillan 4:48

Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. Well, I have my own perspectives on this, but this is why I wanted to have this conversation with you is you know, when you go back and you look at something like let's say 30 years ago, you know, there were certain farming practices in different crops and some have applied across crops that came along. And the science was starting to show that there was some potential. And then some of them were adopted by different types of growers and others were not some became kind of industry standards and others kind of did not. And again, you can think across crops, you know, what were some of the things that you saw that came along that seemed absolutely crazy at the time, that ended up being widely adopted.

Cliff Ohmart 5:20

I can't think of anything that I thought was crazy. Now. Crazy, but you know, this is the advantage I had kind of from the research community in the background, I had learning how to talk to growers who have lots of important concerns. But interestingly, the thing that got me early in the early days was cover cropping in wine grapes, and how if there was one, no matter what project we did, and we did things like develop that self assessment workbook, all around sustainable wine grape growing, that was the one topic that I would get in the most arguments over me, it seemed like such a no brainer. But me back to my orchard days up in Chico, because of where they were and the rainfall they had. There was a natural cover crop in all the almond orchards and they mowed it. And then of course, scientific methods was the name of the company that clients down around Fresno, and down there, everything just got tilled, and floated. All of that. And I could never figure it out. And of course, some of its rainfall. But then when I started working on winegrapes, it was clear my interpretation was It was literally like a tradition you till as soon as you can in the spring and get this incredible. And of course Lodi had these amazingly deep soils, trying to convince growers that there's all these great reasons for growing cover crops was a long, slow battle. And what I always chuckled about was, oh, Napa, we grow cover crops, you know, and I'd go over there in the middle of summer and there was bare dirt everywhere. Thank you found that there's something cover crops. I understand if you plant them that cost a lot of money, whatever. But yeah, so that was the one thing. The thing that I've seen happen over time, of course, is so many people now and I'm thinking of orchard crops, especially but wine grapes were they were using drip irrigation pretty early. But now so many orchard crops have them, whether I don't think growers necessarily thought it was a crazy idea. But for various reasons, it took a while for that to really catch on. And yet, it's such an important way to manage your water as well as crop health. The other thing, being a data guy because of my research background, the sort of high level I would call it convincing growers that measure to manage is really the best way to farm sustainably no matter who you are talking to a natural organic farmer, because they felt like they were doing great stuff. They were just as bad as not managing and measuring stuff as the conventional because they felt like they didn't really need to. So we're talking about very the thing that got me in my early days, I developed computer software system, using barcodes for company in Chico. And it really was in the early days I laptop in my truck got barcode readers for data collection, because we collect data sheet we gave growers data sheets every week. And it was all about this measure to manage when the first software companies started to SuoeHarvest was one of the earliest to come up with farm data management systems. It didn't get widely adopted. And I asked myself, and I think it's because in those days, growers weren't doing a lot of measuring to manage. Now, I think, you know, growers, because they're on site all the time, they have incredible wealth of experience in their head. I learned very quickly that what's in your head, and what you think you're seeing may not be exactly what you have what's really going on based on what you're measuring. So that was one, you know connected to that is, over time, autonomous devices for capturing data. And weather station was one of the first soil was one of the next and over time, you know, and those are those costs money. And so over time, I've seen more and more that now. I think we've actually reached the point is companies are selling things to growers that a set of ahead of its time. I'm worried that growers are getting ripped off in a way some growers depending on what they're buying from companies so but this measure to manage I think over time has really changed things and then things like solar. I think in the early growers would have thought boy, that's crazy. One thing I enjoyed about wine grape growing wine growers seemed more willing to adopt new things. So like solar really started catching on for pumps especially. And now I think it's more and more Common, and then things like measuring moisture stress with pressure bombs. I can remember in my forestry days, so we're talking about back in the 60s and 70s. Growers well, bark beetle people were measuring moisture stress in pine trees. But they had pre dawn moisture, which was so bad about the vineyard in the middle of the day, they had to go out when it was dark, because they were looking what trees are stressed or not. But it's the same idea. So all of a sudden, people started coming up with using pressure bombs in orchards and vineyards, again, around irrigation, all good stuff. And so I saw that Come on. And then coupled with this as well is just this whole, clearly farm workers are still underpaid, but things gotten you know, more and more growers are paying health care, more and more growers are paying for time off. I've seen that change again, 30 years ago, I think growers would have thought that's crazy stuff.

Craig Macmillan 10:59

And in that tradition, and that idea of like, I just physically can't I would love this, but I just there's no way well, let's let's see if we can find a way also in terms of tradition and mindset friend of mine, before those rules came into practice, he got ahead of the game and he sat his main people down, he said, Okay, listen, we're gonna go to a 40 hour week, I'm gonna give you a raise. So you have the same wage weekly, the workers were really upset. And they said, Hey, you're taking days away from me, you're taking work away from me. And he says, No, I'm not what I'm doing is I'm giving you a weekend. And I'm giving you, you know, a life, you know, plus, complying with the law, he showed people math and try to explain it. And he was really in he was really frustrated. Because, you know, these were his his managers, these are his supervisors. And these are really smart people, really sharp people. But that change to the culture was just, you know, scary. And I think that that's true for a lot of the things we've been talking about. I remember talking about cover crops friend of mine farmer and going back to like the 90s, early 90s. What was it called was cover cropping and vineyards, I think was the name of the book. It came it was I think it was a SARE book, came out.

Cliff Ohmart 12:07

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chuck Ingles and others.

Craig Macmillan 12:11

Yeah, exactly. He also I think he also did Steel on the Field, maybe. So okay, people getting interested. Here's how you do it. Okay, now we're going to help you. And here's the crops, and here's how they grow and all that. So it was it was available. And so people were starting to get into it. And so this friend of mine who hadn't been doing it was starting to do it. And I said, Well, how's it how's it going? And he goes, Man, I don't know. He says, I feel like I'm farming two crops. And I was like, well, you are. But is it that bad? Is it that hard? Over time, they figured it out. And he actually told me that he said, I spent my whole career cultivating weeds. And now you want me to grow plants? Like that just doesn't make any sense to me. And I got it. I understand that. Like if you spent your whole career trying to knock stuff down. Now you're asking me to build stuff up? You know, it's tricky. I think we're still now working with adoption around some of these things. Cover crops, I think are widely widely widely used in the wintertime and vineyards. You see that's kind of common practice now wasn't in the past, you kind of relied upon native vegetation, but we are still tilling things under. And all of the science is showing. And we're doing tailgates and podcasts and articles and all over the place, not just Vineyard Team all over the place, about hey, you're really eliminating your soil life when you do that. And I wanted to get your opinion on that. Because this idea of soil health, I had never heard that term up until five years ago or so. And then suddenly is like, oh healthy soil, it's all about soil. But are you doing the things that you need to do to do that? And to get those benefits? What kind of experience have you had around that?

Cliff Ohmart 13:44

Negativity on that concept? It just I think so happened to the personalities involved came from actually a soils person was resistant. They thought this concept of the word health was just crazy when it came to soils. And this is a soils guy. And we just in the end agreed to disagree because we did put all of that in our original workbook back in 1999. Growers for state just, if anything, they get that that's been my experience. It's just that depending on what you want them to do like adding compost if they can or can't afford it. And I think it was more the academics but I think that's changed as they've gotten more used to the term this one person still will not use the word soil health, but it's become accepted now because I think it's been defined. And then on the scientific side, the to me, one of my regrets I don't have very many but my biggest regret is not getting into soils. I had a sales class in forestry school, but I was not interested in below ground. I was interested in the bugs. And in the end when it came to consulting and ag that been my biggest deficiency, I don't really understand the geology of soils. And what I've getting for sure is the science behind what's going on in the microbial communities, the interaction between microbes and plants, and the quality of the soil and what's going on in the soil. It's so important. And I think more and more growers are just realizing it, even though again, I'm worried that the commercial side is getting ahead of it selling inoculants and this and that, I think, we're not quite there yet. But we're learning the soil scientists are doing a great job, I think helping us get up to speed on what's really going on.

Craig Macmillan 15:41

Yeah, absolutely. I'm, I'm on a journey myself, right now, about the last two years I've been on this crash course into soils and to soil microbial communities that because I had no background that, you know, I wasn't really interested in what was happening above the ground. And I was interested in, I was primarily interested in insect pests. And then I got more interested in diseases. And that led to nutrition which led to irrigatoin. And this is the piece I'm kind of learning about. Now, it seems like if you're really interested in sustainable farming, no matter who you are, what your crop is, to me one of the limitations, and I want to see what you think about this, one of the limitations is you say, Okay, I'm an expert. Now, in almond farming, I'm an expert in wind grape farming. Now I've got to become an expert in soil microbial communities. You know, now I have to become an expert in soil, geology, impair material, you know, I mean, every topic that comes along, I now have to I have to go back to school again, that to me is an interesting one, because I find people seem to embrace it. And I find people who seem to be resistant to it, mostly because they don't have time or energy to do it. What has been your experience with folks? Are there certain kinds of different types of people that are more willing to invest the energy? How much? How much energy? Do people have to invest in these kinds of things? Is that a limitation?

Cliff Ohmart 16:51

Yeah, I think where I think, if anything, we're I've seen the biggest challenges with small growers that are basically owner operators, and they don't have any help, really, and and they I think, are really time constrained. But I think the real answer to your question is, this is where Cooperative Extension comes in. If you've got the right people writing the right educational materials, you can distill it so that a grower can take information and apply it. I don't have any proof. But I think for definitely some people that say, I don't have time to get into this, they use that as an excuse. They just don't want to deal with it. I understand that part because farming is very complicated. One of those guys, I work with a longtime Kent Reeves as a wildlife biologist, he helped us in Lodi for years. And his great saying was, farming is not rocket science, it's harder. So getting your hands on the right educational information, if you're a grower owner operator, is the secret. Now, if you're a large grower, and I've seen this, they hire people, and it's getting more and more sophisticated, as large growers are doing so they have the opportunity to hire a soil scientist PhD level. And then most people can really dive into it. And then, you know, they have a management team where they can sit down and integrate what what they've got. It's an issue for sure. Time. You could literally spend all your 24 hours a day worrying about doing stuff around the farm. But it's back to the cover crop thing back in the old days. The thing you probably know Steve Mathiason. Yeah, well, in the early days, he and I worked together for four years in Lodi, and he had this he felt that he call it recreational disking. You know, or people just wanted to get out of the house. So they got discked, you know, and we don't really know if that's true. But growers do want to do things, their program. And I saw that in my early days as a PCA, particularly when it came to spraying for insects is convincing them you don't have to do something today, because they're programmed. And so again, back to your thing about I think it can be a crutch, oh, I don't have time to get into soils or whatever. But the other the flip side is that is convincing me. So much of my experience, especially in orchards and almonds was, look, I know it's hard, but don't do anything right now. And that's how you save money. And it really is, you know, I think for insects spraying you can really make good cases for that.

Craig Macmillan 19:31

I agree. And I think that for the folks that I've seen who have implemented certain kinds of practices over the years, they find that it actually is a savings because they're their vineyards are more balanced. So there's less kind of adjusting maybe that they need to do especially if you can get your irrigation dialed in. If you get your nutrition in to where you want it, there's less manipulation is required. You can get your cost down because you're only putting on kind of what you need. I mean, I think we found out the hard way that we have a tendency to put on more inputs than you necessarily need to be putting on because I need to do something, right? I need to take care of these plants, I need to feed them, I need to water them all of which is true. The question, the question is, do you just put out a buffet of cookies for your kid? Or do you control what they eat based on what you know about nutrition? Right, that kind of that kind of a thing. I think the same is true for what you've mentioned, the time and the knowledge part of it. We have lots of great education stuff out there. And that doesn't take that long to read. And there's also lots of other professionals that can come and talk to you, or folks that you hire that can take on a lot of that I've met, I've been very, very impressed with the quality of knowledge and education of young pest control advisors that are coming out of the universities. Now. They have a very strong grounding in sustainable ag. So they see the world a little bit differently. I think one area that I wanted to ask you about, because it's near and dear to my heart, and I think it is teasers as well as biological control in vineyards.

Cliff Ohmart 20:57

Yes,

Craig Macmillan 20:58

Yes. I'll start the conversation. This part of the conversation this way I was talking to I actually interviewed was talking to a person who manages an insectary. And they said to me, what is wrong with you guys in the Central Coast? When I say What are you talking about? I sell a ton, a ton about control agents in the San Joaquin Valley. And I can't sell hardly anything on the coast. And I don't get it. And my first response was, Well, maybe the pest pressures are different this and that. And he says, no, no, no, I, I'm familiar. Yes, there's some differences. But like these, they just don't seem to like believe in it, which I thought was an interesting observation. Because as a sociologist, my backgrounds in sociology also is like, Hmm, I wonder if there is something cultural going on there? Or if there's a group adoption thing, I feel like we've kind of stalled out what is your take on the state of insect biological control right now in wine grapes?

Cliff Ohmart 21:54

I actually don't have a feel for what the state is right now. What I thought you're going to ask me is, what is my view on it?

Craig Macmillan 22:03

Let's do that.

Cliff Ohmart 22:04

Yeah, and I do have something to say. This is where my academic training especially at Berkeley, you know, that was a hotbed of control scientists, when I was there as a grad student, Robert VandenBosch, probably being the most famous. I went through this very interesting, Berkeley, and it was a huge Entomology Department when I went there. And the concept in Berkeley overall was natural enemies, regulate insect populations. And you have to be very specific, using IPM. And disease management is a whole different ballgame. As with diseases, if there there you, you're behind the eight ball, insects, you can watch them and wait. And then when I went to Australia as a research scientist, there was a school and the weight Institute in South Australia. And they felt that the environment controlled insect populations, not natural enemies. It was the classic academic thing of we're right, no, we're right. And in reality, if you study a particular insect, some insects are controlled by the environment, and others are controlled by natural enemies. So my view about bio control is not all insect populations are controlled by natural enemies. It depends on the insect and it depends on the situation. And so it's a great opportunity for insect trees to flog stuff to people. Because you know, who doesn't want biocontrol for work? The danger of bonafide control is if you're going to use insects, you need to be out there measuring and seeing if it's really helping or not, because you put out natural enemies and you don't have a pest problem, and it may not be related to them at all. Unfortunately, it's very complicated. My guess is there's probably more being agents being sold and used than ever before. Partly because some growers realizing this is important. To me, it's really, you know, things like spider mites definitely are controlled by not only the plant but also their natural enemies. Vine mealybug, again, is very much controlled by natural enemies depending but you've got ant situation. So look at these to me in each specific case. And then of course, the other thing with with natural enemies, of course, is you don't want a natural enemy that's so good. That wipes out your pest population, because then...

Craig Macmillan 24:33

...It goes away. But it's kind of the problem, isn't it? I mean, the original IPM paper from 1959 It's an economic injury level. It's an action threshold, there's some damages it's tolerated and and things like wine grapes will actually on all the all of the fruit vegetable horticultural crops. So you know, aesthetics is huge. I mean, statics is the whole deal. So you really can't tolerate stuff which makes these other techniques kind of tough. That was just exactly where I was kind of gonna go with This is that sometimes we can find a situation where biological control and release of biological control agents might work really well is an augmentative, then there's also conservation. And if we can think along those lines, if we can think along those lines, that helps balance everything out, as well. That's an area where I think that we can see some adoption, probably there's more room for growth, I don't want to sound like you've been critical of growers. I think I in my career have seen amazing commitment to innovation in the wine industry. I've seen people take on all kinds of things that again, the science didn't says it, say, oh, it's crazy. But people were like that, to me, sounds kind of crazy. It's too dangerous. You're gonna lose crop, I'm gonna lose yield. And then but there have been these companies that were like, hey, you know, we're going to trial this and see that if this works, if there's information that gets out, do you feel like we've made progress in sustainable ag, especially in vineyards? Are we have we improve?

Cliff Ohmart 25:55

I very much think so. It's a slow process, again, for all sorts of reasons that we've touched on some we haven't. But yes, I do believe, especially in wine grapes. And I think in orchard crops as well, the which is were my experiences, I just don't have a feel for for row crops, really. But yes, I think we've come a long way.

Craig Macmillan 26:20

In the area of sustainable ag in the future sustainable ag especially in vineyards, is there one piece of advice or philosophy or idea or concept that you think it'd be important for growers that are what would be the one thing you'd say to a grower this about, hey, sustainable ag is really cool. But...

Cliff Ohmart 26:36

Well, one thing I would just bring up this measure to manage and just remind them, no matter what it is, it's as simple as you know, how many growers really have a way to measure how much water they use on an annual basis in a given venue? You know, do you have a flow meter on your pump. And I still think that's the case that some people don't. And then the thing that we were touching on it, I didn't mention, so many of the things that we you and I've talked about, just bring back memories of why this is so difficult. One of them is, you know, it's can sound like we're really being critical of growers, which of course, if you're trying to work with a grower to help them, you don't want to sound like you're saying, Why are you doing this? And I used to come up with various ways. How can you get this across? And so when we developed the self assessment workbook, for example, what that does is it helps you, in the privacy of your own home, identify very specifically things you're doing or not doing. But I tried to remind people look, I said, How would you feel if someone knocked on your door and said, I don't like what you're doing in your backyard. And I'm here to help. You know, it's all partly it's about the approach. And then back to resistance. I'm a big believer in perception of risk versus real risk. And I think all of us as people, and you touched on it, about irrigation, and about fertilization, and about spraying. It's like, if I don't do this horrible things are going to happen. Again, I would just introduce it's a very high level concept. But have people say, Is this a perceived risk? Or do you think it's a real risk? And how do you know if it's real or not. And of course, this comes back to measure to manage. And again, I would try to come up with various very simple parables of why this is so difficult. And it had to do with spraying because you know, so many people, it's like, growers just spray. And of course, growers don't jump out of bed in the morning say, What can I kill today?

Craig Macmillan 28:46

No, they just don't. That's a thing. When around pesticides, people are like, Oh, growth, you're just looking for a pesticide to use. Yeah, but no, I don't want to do that, right. No, I do it because I think I have because I have to I'm not doing it for fun.

Cliff Ohmart 28:58

And as a PCA, especially in my early days spraying and reduce spraying was what we were trying to accomplish when it comes to insect spraying or disease spraying. When you don't spray, you'll learn one of two things. Gee, I wish that I did. If you don't spray and something bad happens that tends to hang with growers for years. Or the other thing you're learning is, boy, I'm glad I didn't. And that's when you realize, Wow, this is why things take a long time to evolve. And it wouldn't be the same for irrigation or nutrient. You know, if I don't put on my nitrogen, my crop yields can be down and it comes back to risk it growers that are interested in sustainable farming, but growers are risk takers. But I think there's a lot of perceived risk, as opposed to try and really get grips on what is real risk or not. So I would talk to a grower about that. And that's the kind of talk you'd have over a cup of coffee or a cup of tea in the office. But I think it's really something really for growers to think about and that doesn't make them sound Like, they're terrible. We're human. We all go through that.

Craig Macmillan 30:04

Absolutely. And there's a lot of responsibility. I mean, that's the other thing, you know, no matter what says the operation is the you know, it doesn't matter. It's the, it's the farm. It's all on your shoulders, don't screw it up.

Cliff Ohmart 30:16

And it's all financed, usually. And then I'm thinking we were talking about this labor and growers paying more in this and that and of course, one of the big budget items now on in farms is labor. And so people trying to mechanize. But if you actually back up and look at other industries, it's the same. Unfortunately, we, we meaning you and I work expense. And so again, it's not that growers are being terrible people, it's they're dealing with it as as is everyone else is just the farm. And one of the things that really was eye popping, I got I was fortunate to be on the workgroup that came up to this sustainable pest management roadmap recently.

Craig Macmillan 30:57

Oh, right. Right.

Cliff Ohmart 30:59

That was an urban as well as AG. And one of the things that I think growers need to know is there are more pesticides used in the urban environment than in the ag environment. By pound more pounds of pesticides. And yeah, who's the enemy? The farmer? Why? Because regulations make it a requirement that we know what they use.

Craig Macmillan 31:27

Yeah, no, that's true. That's it. And I think that also is a challenge for us ag, when we look around at other industries, for instance, or we look at other uses, or we look at other things, and you're like, Hey, man, I gotta do all this stuff. Like, there's all these things that I have to do that you don't have to do, you know, and and measure to manage is another good example of that is, you know, we have tools to do it, we can do it. I mean, yeah, Flow Meter cost a little bit of money. And you got to monitor it. I mean, that's the other thing, you got to look at it. I mean, that's, that's my job big. Well, I do a lot of things. But part of my job is like I during the summer, I watch our water. And if things don't make sense, I jump in and say, Hey, what's going on? You know, homeowners are not necessarily doing that, you know, other businesses are not necessarily doing that. And I think is a societal level, I think the trend is going to have to go that direction, because the resources are just going to get scarcer. Hope that you will agree, and this is kind of where I want to bring things around is would you agree that that we've seen a lot of progress? would you also agree that maybe we've seen some changes in philosophy over time, and I don't just mean from younger people coming into the business, but just folks who've been farming for a long, long time changing kind of how they think about things?

Cliff Ohmart 32:35

Yeah, I think for sure, I definitely know individuals where that's really happened, which is great. You know, I would hope I would have changed over time, because of what I know. So yes,

Craig Macmillan 32:47

Yeah, I've changed over time. I'm just much more bitter.

Cliff Ohmart 32:51

Yeah. One thing that, you know, given that I've been doing this a long time, there's some things that don't change about and one of the things and it came up during this sustainability roadmap, we had a, after it came out, I was sitting on a panel, one of the growers in the audience and older grower, somebody my age, basically said, you know, regulations are putting me out of business. It's no fun farming anymore. But I heard that 40 years ago, and I said that I was a little worried because I didn't want to sound I don't know, I just didn't want to sound too confrontational. But I said, Look, I have to say something here. I understand what you're saying. I really understand what you're saying, But, I heard this 40 years ago from someone that 40 years ago was older. And at that point, I said, Look, grow. Growers are innovative people. And we have to innovate.

Craig Macmillan 33:56

But no growers are adaptive. Yeah.

Cliff Ohmart 34:00

And it's up to us. And this was going back to the pest management roadmap. It is up to all of us to do better. And yes, it's hard. It is hard.

Craig Macmillan 34:07

But but we can change. We can make progress. We can reduce our inputs, we can protect the environment, we can make life better for people. It's all good. We're going in the right direction. So and I'm really I'm really happy to have you bring that perspective and some of those stories to this topic. We're out of time for today. We could go on for hours and I look forward to it at some point. Having dinner with you. Swapping stories, I would love to have a series on on this just on and on and on and on. But unfortunately we can't I guess today's been Cliff Ohmart. He's Principal of Omart Consulting Services. Thanks for being on the podcast Cliff.

Cliff Ohmart 34:42

You're very welcome.

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With heightened awareness of climate change, pollution, and environmental depletion, it’s no surprise that nearly 6 in 10 consumers are willing to change their purchasing habits to help reduce negative environmental impacts (IMB Institute for Business Value, 2020).

Energy efficiency is about using less fuel and energy to perform the same tasks and get the same results. When a business makes energy-efficient changes, they combat climate change by reducing greenhouse gas emissions and energy consumption.

There are several ways a sustainable wine business can make energy-efficient improvements. Read on to learn how at Center of Effort, many small changes around the winery compounded to have a massive impact on their overall energy use.

Energy Efficiency at Center of Effort The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Center of Effort sees this clearly when they look at the tremendous energy expense savings they have realized since making Energy Efficient improvements around their winery:

· Energy time-of-use adjustments on their cooling system, wastewater aerators, and other heavy energy usage equipment.

· Implementing night-air cooling of barrel rooms and case goods storage areas to minimize HVAC use.

· Investing in a small chiller enabling them to bring tank temperatures down on select tanks rather than the entire plant down.

· Installing a quickdraw door to address insulation loss.

These are just a few of the areas in which they took action to reduce their energy demand.

“A lot of the changes were pretty simple and had varying impact, but all together it compounded into very meaningful differences," says Kevin Bargetto, Associate Winemaker at Center of Effort. He continues, "With these changes, our entire winery facility, tasting room and offices are entirely solar-powered. In fact, we are running net negative, meaning we are even sending generated power back to the grid!”

Their solar project went live back in 2016, and Nathan Carlson, Winemaker and General Manager, says that it “showed 100% ROI over 4 years, no problem.”

Your brand contributes to a higher standard of wine business through its sustainable practices.
You can take pride in the way your brand protects the people and the planet. When you tell your customers what it takes to make a sustainable wine, they will share in that satisfaction.

We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story worksheet.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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Looking for a tool to help you make irrigation and Nitrogen application decisions? How about one that will not cost you anything? Michael Cahn, Farm Advisor, Irrigation and Water Resources at the University of California Cooperative Extension in Monterey County explains a valuable software for farmers – CropManage. This free software from the University of California combines a wide variety of data inputs to help growers make accurate and timely irrigation and fertilization decisions based on crop-specific models. The tool aggregates data from the University of California at Davis Soil Web, weather stations, evapotranspiration, and satellite imagery. Plus, it can be integrated with a farmer’s existing software.

CropManage has been ground-truthed in more than 30 field trials. While the product started in lettuce, it has expanded into vineyards. Your vineyard can be a beta tester to help improve this software for the wine industry.

Resources: * 115: Examining Plant Nutrient Mobility with SAP Analysis * 116: Using Nudge Theory to Improve Irrigation Practices * 139: Vineyard Irrigation Scheduling * Adapting wine grape production to climate change through canopy architecture manipulation and irrigation in warm climates * CropManage * “CropManage CropManage Application for Vineyard Irrigation Decision Support.” 73rd American Society of Enology and Viticulture National Conference, San Diego CA * Michael Cahn’s email * Monterey County UC Cooperative Extension

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Michael Cahn. He is Farm Adviser in irrigation and water resources with UC Cooperative Extension Monterey County. But he also works in other counties as well, as I'm sure we'll talk about. And today we're going to talk about a system a decision assistance system for a whole variety of crops called CropManage, which is free and available online. And I've been following for quite a few years. In fact, he was a speaker at one of our Sustainable Ag Expos a few years back, and at the time, I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. And I can't wait to see how it develops. Welcome.

Michael Cahn 0:29

Well, thank you for inviting me.

Craig Macmillan 0:31

So first of all, what exactly is CropManage? Well, it

Michael Cahn 0:35

is an online decision support tool that's sort of in a nutshell is how we describe it. It's essentially software that takes information from different sources, puts it through some crop models, and provide some recommendations on how long to irrigate your crops. It also for a number of crops, provides decision support on nitrogen management.

Craig Macmillan 1:03

How did this all come about? This was a really interesting project, there's a lot that goes into it, what was the genesis, the idea behind this?

Michael Cahn 1:09

The start of CropManage was in lettuce a number of years ago, we're trying to help growers be more efficient in nitrogen management. Nitrogen, as most of you know, in its mineral form, which would be mostly nitrate, is very mobile in the soil. So it seems like if we're going to manage nitrogen accurately, then we also have to manage water. So they go to hand in hand in hand. Of course, I work in irrigation water management. So I also had the interest in just using water efficiently on the Central Coast, because of our limited water supplies. You know, we could use nutrients more efficiently and water more efficiently if we had some sort of decision support tool. When I started working with the vegetable growers. I often asked them, you know, how are you making decisions on irrigation? How long to irrigate when to irrigate? And you get a variety of answers. But essentially, it came down to the experience of branch managers in irrigation farming, sort of passing that information down from one irrigator to another irrigator. One farm manager do another farm manager. And by the way, this happens at vineyards too, you know, so the question was, well, okay, are they you're getting efficiently. And so, as I started out as a farm advisor, my first question was, how do we measure how much water we apply, you have to remember back when I started, wasn't so easy. The flow meters we had available for these propeller meters, they're often inaccurate. And then to record derogations, there was no output, you couldn't hook them up to a little computer or data logger. So that came later. But once they did start monitoring water use growers, who found that if you base it on crop ET, they're putting on 200, 300% of crop at the estimate. And so, so the question was, who's right, you know, is the crop ET right or are they right? So then we start doing trials, saying, well, let's just follow this crop ET and see if that would work. It worked, you know, we never reduced yields in lettuce. So we kept the soil still with adequate moisture. At that time, it was like a spreadsheet model that we used. At the same time, we were working on nitrogen management using the soil nitrate quick test to evaluate mineral island in the soil.

How are you measuring Crop ET back then? We're estimating it, I should say.

Yeah, it's still the same way as we do it and CropManage, we developed crop coefficients. And that was a big question of growers, what is my crop coefficient, and there seemed to be a misunderstanding of that, because they thought it was one number like point seven, one, and then you use that with the referencing ET value that comes from usually a CIMIS station that California irrigation management information system. Well, it's not one number. It's based on really the fractional cover over the ground. So how much of the ground is shade by the use in in lettuce? This changes tremendously, you know, over a season, it goes from essentially no cover to full cover to about 90%. And so then the question was, okay, no cover here, but I need to irrigate Right. So we do have water loss from the soil by evaporation. So we have to model that too. So that all goes into the crop coefficient calculation. And we have that in our spreadsheet model. We based it on published work that was done in the Silicon Valley by my predecessor, and other people, that model worked fine. So it wasn't a model, I necessarily came up with the innovation was just trying it out. And validating it. That's what we did, then, you know, we got grower interest. They said, Yeah, we'd like to use this type of model for water management. We also were interested in nitrogen management using the soil nitrate quick test. And so another aspect to what we did was look at, well, how much nitrogen does a lettuce crop need as you go through the season, and we did this by brute force by harvesting lettuce at different stages, and analyzing how much nitrogen was in the above ground biomass. And that gave us the demand side of the equation. So so now we want to put it all together, and the grower interest was there. So we realized, you know, if a grower was going to use this spreadsheet, it would be a little cumbersome, because think about how many separate plantings there are on our ranch, lots of them. That's a lot of spreadsheets to keep track of. So we wanted it to be in a sense a database database that we available to a grower online. So that was the idea that we have a web based decision support tool, so it holds all the data. So once you enter it, you don't have to re enter it. There is some upfront cost and time when setting up your farm or ranch on CropManage. But once it's set up, only if you make modifications do you have to enter anything.

Craig Macmillan 7:01

Now there's a lot of inputs that go into this, I was looking at the landing page for the CropManage Site, can you tell us a little bit about all of the different parts and pieces of data and information that go into into the system?

Michael Cahn 7:08

Essentially, you're giving crop manage some information about your ranch. So all the different fields that you have, we need to be able to refer to them. So you set that out, and you associate a soil type with that, because we do have models of water holding capacity in the soil. It's based on the soil texture. Now because it is web based, we can use other tools to help you set this up. So fact crop manage links to UC Davis soil web. So you click on a Google map, find your field, you click on it and the soil type comes up, you can always modify the values there. But we bring those in, you don't have to know to use CropManage, you have to associate CropManage with some weather data. So there's the option to use the near CIMIS weather station, you can use multiple CIMIS weather stations, there's a spatial CIMIS option, which is a hybrid of satellite and weather stations. So it brings in the referencing ET data will also bring in rainfall data from the CIMIS station. Because we are working with fertilizers, you can make a customized list of the typical fertilizers that would be used at that branch. And so there is a list there. You can choose from, you can enter your own specific fertilizers that you use. Also, you'll see a place where you set up your commodity lists. No sense in having information pop up about lettuce if you don't grow lettuce.

Craig Macmillan 8:52

Exactly. And vineyards are part of the system now. Is that right?

Michael Cahn 8:57

That's right. They're in the experimental phase. And if you want to activate it, you'll see in your profile place where you check experimental commodities. And that's because we're still developing the nitrogen model for vineyards. So it's good to use for irrigation management, not put to use, for nitrogen management. We're working with other UC Davis specialists on the nitrogen.

Craig Macmillan 9:22

You're gonna have a hard time with that. Trying to get a handle on the demand side of nitrogen for vineyard stuff. I've worked on that as a as a writer. And yeah, that's that that's gonna take some work, but I'm glad that it's part of the idea. I think it's super important. I think it's something that people have overlooked. I think we've been flying blind as far as nitrogen and vineyards goes, we've gotten better in the irrigation side.

Michael Cahn 9:45

Right, right. And that's what I'm learning is the vineyard people have no agreement on a lot of these things. One of the things one of the purposes of crop damages. Well, first pivotal is public, right? It's developed by the University, it takes our science and tries to make it more available to practitioners by having the decision support models are based on our research. And as we do research, we can update these models, but also, as practitioners use crop damage, they can tell us we oh, this doesn't work, right, you know, you need to investigate X or Y. And so for developing new hypotheses or directions in our research, it's useful that way, too. So it's a two way street, I should say.

Craig Macmillan 10:44

How is this going with adoption? Why is it how's it going with communication from growers back to you? Are people picking this up? Are they giving you back the kind of feedback that you need on the growers side, how can we help you?

Michael Cahn 10:55

So for the vegetables, it's getting adopted by growers that are ready to really implement better water and nutrient management, not saying all growers adopting CropManage, but we do have growers who, and some growers, they're saying, Yeah, this is the direction we want to go. And they're in the phase of figuring out how to get it adopted on their growing operation. Because it's one thing where someone at the top or management wants to adopt it to another thing to get your irrigators to adopt it. So that's the hardest part. And then the same with the strawberries. In some ways we've been even more successful were, they were the strawberries. And then in vineyards, while we're, you know, in the beginning stages here. And so right now, what we've been doing is we have beta testers, essentially, vineyard growers that are saying, Yeah, I'm interested, what we do is we put a flow meter on a block in their vineyard. And one of the nice things about crop manages, it can take sensor data into it, just like a lot of those tools out there that are sold to, to vineyard people for soil moisture monitoring, we can also bring soil moisture, data flow meter data in you can observe it and crop manage. So we've outfitted a few vineyards in the Salinas Valley with that, and some in the Central Valley to see what CropManage estimates and terms of water use and what growers are putting on.

Craig Macmillan 12:39

Yeah, and if they tell me a little bit more about the one thing that I love about CropMnage, it's science based. And it's also ground truth. So as you've gone along, you've you've done the background work you've come up with, Okay, this looks like something that would work in terms of figuring out Kc and things like that. But then you actually have spent the time and the energy and whatnot to actually ground truth of the decision assistance model against reality, right?

Michael Cahn 13:05

Yeah, we haven't done vineyards in the way I would love to do it, which is not just compared to what a grower standard practices, but go beyond that, where we have some pre arranged treatments in compared to those treatments. So for example, vegetables, we've done replicated field trials, seeing broccoli, where we apply 50 7500 and 125 and 150% of the recommendation, then evaluate the yield. Like to do this in vineyards, that is trickier. It's a perennial crop, so you'd have to run it for several years, really, to see, you know, really what the outcome is.

Craig Macmillan 13:50

You have other variables along the way things like crop management or dropping crop they're changing cropping styles through pruning and whatnot, year to year during canopy management. I found that to be particularly tricky. If you're thinking about idea of percent cover. If you've got a California sprawl and everything's flopping all over the place then works. You push everything upright. And now you don't have as much shade, but you still have the same amount of leaves. So doing those kinds of estimates is tough. Yeah, definitely. It's on the fly. But I believe he can do it. I believe in you.

Michael Cahn 14:23

Well, we'll see. Maybe beyond my career, but someone needs to do it.

Craig Macmillan 14:30

Do you still need beta testers?

Michael Cahn 14:32

Sure. Yes. Because the more feedback we get, the better and there's different levels of they could do for the most intensive is where we put you know, a flow meter on and some soil moisture sensors. They want that in the field, and then they can follow, you know, how much water they're putting on. And what this means in terms of soil moisture, what CropManaged recommends We also take canopy photos, to adjust the canopy curve for how they're managing the vineyard. We also import automatically satellite estimates of canopy that comes from a NASA product called SIMIS satellite irrigation management system.

Craig Macmillan 15:20

Which is really cool, by the way.

Michael Cahn 15:22

Yeah. And this year seems pretty accurate, you know, very close to our estimates with ground truth, measurements of canopy. And that's going to be compared with opening ET, which is a satellite based estimate of ET, actual ET again, the nice thing about these web based tools is you, the user don't have to go to all those different websites, we can bring that data in automatically in the parts we need for your decision support, we just pull that out, you don't have to search through different places in websites to get what you want.

Craig Macmillan 16:00

Yeah, I like the way the system is, or the way the interface is structured. It's a great dashboard. It's easy to navigate around, it gives you great information easily, which is wonderful. I think I already know the answer to this question. But what would you say is the number one advantage, or the number one benefit to a grower, no matter who they are, of using CropManage?

Michael Cahn 16:23

I guess the number one benefit is they have a better understanding of really the water and the nitrogen management over a whole season, just at their fingertips. For perennial crops, you can see what you did year to year. So the record keeping, I would say, is a big benefit. Even if you don't follow any of the recommendations, just keeping records is extremely useful.

Craig Macmillan 16:49

Measure to manage.

Michael Cahn 16:50

Yeah, it's been very useful for me, in my research, it's like I built this mostly out of self interest in the sense. You can imagine if you were trying to help people doing irrigation, you need to know how much water they're applaying. And so here we have a tool where I can give them feedback right away, how much water they're applying, I used to have to calculate all those ET measurements, or estimates by hand. Well, this software does it. So it's a great extension tool. It's a great way for me to figure out who there's a gap in knowledge, and that I need to do research on. So it's helped in many ways. We have a number of farm advisors that also develop the interests of crop manage in different parts of the state. And so it's sort of the idea is spreading, I guess, you see.

Craig Macmillan 17:44

Yeah, exactly. I hope that it doesn't happen spreads amongst growers. What is the one thing that you would tell growers on this topic, broad topic?

Michael Cahn 17:54

Well, this broad topic of water management of vineyards, there's a lot of different opinions. What I see, at least in the Salinas Valley, is growers, you know, they they stress those vines a lot, a lot more than they realize a lot of their decisions come from watching the vines and how the tendrils are, you know, how they're growing. And they don't want too much canopy, so a pullback on the water. But it could be that at some point, sir overstressing the crop. And so having good sense of how much water stress that crop is experienced would be something I would like to investigate more.

Craig Macmillan 18:36

Especially if you're going into a hot spell. You know, I mean, it's one thing you Oh, hey, these vines, we want to keep the very small, we want to have stress in this. And then suddenly, next thing, you know, it's 10 days of 105. And it would have been nice for that plant to be in a little better shape going into that. But how do you know, right? That's philosophy versus prediction versus technology. But this is a great tool to help you with that.

Michael Cahn 18:57

Right. And so one feature I better talk about in the development for vineyards is you can decide what percentage of potentially ET you want to apply to your crop for each irrigation. And if you enter the amount of water you applied, or the hours you applied, we have another part of crop manage called the saltwater balance. And it will actually calculate how the soil profile will look you know, in terms of depletion of moisture, and we've calibrated that pretty well by using soil moisture sensors. For example, one vineyard we did last year, outfitted with soil moisture sensors and in ran this and it was pretty obvious from the soil moisture sensors, you know, they really depleted the lower part of the profile, you know, by July and it just never went up even with each irrigation they waited up the top foot but you know there was as much moisture down deeper. And so, you know, the soil water balance showed something very similar. We showed this data the grower, and they said, That is not what we wanted to do. We want to keep some of that deep soil moisture. You could use this as a tool to help you understand just how much you are stressing the crop.

Craig Macmillan 20:21

Where can people find out more about you and CropManage in general?

Michael Cahn 20:24

Well, we have on our website, help link, which has tutorials as introduction to CropManage, we do crop manage workshops. Usually during the winter time, where it's hands on, you bring a computer, or cell phone or whatever you want to interface with CropManage. And by the way, you don't need a computer a desktop computer, or laptop computer to use CropManage, it works just fine in tablet. And it's definitely meant to be used with a smartphone out there in the field. Because the interface reconfigures for the different screen sites. It is used in a web browser environment to be recommended using Google Chrome or Safari attending our workshop. And we also say, you know, call it the crop manage hotline, which is my office, and I'll leave us with some contact information.

Craig Macmillan 21:24

Perfect, but we're about out of time. I want to thank you Michael. Like I said, this has been a long, long road to get to this point. And I'm very happy to see the progress that's been made. And I'm happy to see that it's still going. This kind of work needs to be funded. And I know that you relied partly upon donations, and I hope that our listeners will put a couple of bucks in the hat somewhere to keep this going. We appreciate it. But it's a fantastic idea and a fantastic amount of privacy all made. Our guest today is Michael Cahn. He was former adviser for irrigation water resources UC Cooperative Extension Monterey County and other counties. Thanks for being on the podcast.

Michael Cahn 22:01

Thank you for having me.

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It’s here! The simple yet powerful tool to help you and your staff tell your Sustainable Story – the brand new, 30-minute online training course.

When asked about the importance of sustainability in a variety of industries, over 80% of respondents said it’s important in food and beverage, according to Morning Consult’s 2022 Sustainability Report.

Sustainability is being talked about more and more these days. We hear from our members that they don’t always know how to communicate sustainability effectively.

That is why we have created the Sustainable Story online course so that you can learn what it means to be sustainable, how sustainability adds value to your wine, and how you can use storytelling to sell more wine.

At the end of this 30-minute course, you will have written 7 examples of sustainable practices unique to your band. These themes are based on SIP Certified’s 7 values: Social Responsibility, Water Management, Safe Pest Management, Energy Efficiency, Habitat, Business and Always Evolving.

To inspire you, we share a variety of examples of each value plus a story from a SIP Certified Member.

Use your Sustainable Story during your tastings, sales calls and meetings, newsletters and Wine Club handouts, social media, and even during casual conversation when you’re talking about where you work.

We encourage you to complete this course as a team so bring together your viticulturalists, wine maker, general manager, sales, marketing, and tasting room staff. Knowing what makes your brand, specifically, sustainable, will help elevate your customer experience, and can even help increase your sales. Sign up for the course to learn how!

Getting started is easy, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story in the show notes to sign up, download the worksheet, watch the videos, and you are ready to tell your Sustainable Story!

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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RNA Interference, known as RNAi, is a biological process that leads to the silencing of gene expression. A lot of plant viruses are RNA viruses including grapevine leafroll-associated virus and grapevine red blotch virus. Yen-Wen Kuo, Assistant Project Scientist in the Department of Plant Pathology at the University of California, Davis is researching ways to induce RNAi in grapevines to target virus. Growers may have heard of double-stranded RNA sprays which are intended to initiate RNAi. The challenge has been that double-stranded RNA breaks down quickly in the elements. The Kou lab is working to improve this process and look for alternatives that will have little impact on the ecology.

Resources: * 71: New Techniques to Detect Grapevine Leafroll Disease * 131: Virus Detection in Grapevines * Abstract: Development of Agrobacterium tumefaciens Infiltration of Infectious Clones of Grapevine Geminivirus A Directly into Greenhouse-Grown Grapevine and Nicotiana benthamiana Plants * Kuo Laboratory – Plant Virology * Maher Al Rwahnih, Foundation plant services * RNA-Based Vaccination of Plants for Control of Viruses * Yen-wen Kuo’s Google Scholar page

Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate * SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet * Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year * Sustainable Winegrowing Education On-Demand (Western SARE) – Sign Up! * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Yen-Wen Kuo. And she is Assistant Professor in the Department of Plant Pathology at UC Davis. I'm Craig Macmillan, your host, and I'm very excited to have Dr. Koh here with us today. Welcome.

Yen-Wen Kuo 0:11

Thank you for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:13

So you've been doing some interesting work the lab on interference RNA, and also how it affects plant viruses and possibly insects in the future. Can you explain for those of us that did not take genetics like we were supposed to in college, what interference RNA is and how it works?

Yen-Wen Kuo 0:29

Sure. So RNA interference is a biological process in which certain types of RNA RNAs can trigger RNA interference. And then once it's triggered, it will produce specifics more RNAs, that can regulate gene expression, by degrading or binding to the target RNAs containing a homologous sequence containing a similar sequence of those small RNAs. So this is a general concept of RNA interference, we also call it RNAi is very complicated the whole process. And there are different pathways and mechanisms included in the RNA interference. RNAi is a primary and effective antiviral defense in plants, but also found in some fungi and insects and lower eukaryotes. And because of all these different mechanisms, scientists and researchers, they they work on different aspects of this mechanism for either plants or animals. And they're also looking for different potential and better ways to use RNAi for different applications.

Craig Macmillan 1:45

So if I understand correctly, you have cell and there is DNA in that cell, and there's genes that code for certain things. And so the RNA is was transmitting or was carrying information from that's encoded with the gene out into the world to do something, is that a fair explanation?

Yen-Wen Kuo 2:05

So the genome there in plants or animals and human is their DNA genomes is DNA, and then the DNA will transcribed into RNA. And those RNA, some of the messenger RNAs can translate into proteins. So it's a how the central dogma from DNA makes RNA and then RNA makes protein. In the old days, we thought that oh, the protein is the important things because the protein can have different functional, different functions in different ways to to regulate everything in the body or in different organisms. But then afterwards, we found that actually RNAs they have many different forms and they can function at the RNA level. So it can interfere with gene expressions and many different things.

Craig Macmillan 3:03

And how does this apply to plant viruses because you've done some really exciting work with Gemini viruses, I believe with grapevine virus a Tell me a little bit about that work and how that works.

Yen-Wen Kuo 3:15

A lot of plant viruses, they are RNA viruses, a lot of those devastating viruses in grapevines, for example, grapevine leaf roll associated virus or grapevine red blotch virus they. So grapevine leaf roll associated viruses and RNA virus and grapevine red blotch is DNA virus. So there are different types of viruses. And so my work is trying to use different viruses making them into viral vectors to induce RNAi in Grapevine plants, to target those important viruses causing diseases in the field for the grapevines. And because so for example, when the viruses they are infecting plants, they will trigger RNAi in the plant, so that plants can protect themselves from virus infection. And because of that, we're trying to develop viral vectors can trigger RNA interference to target those viruses that's causing diseases. The work I have on the grapevine Gemini virus A that GGVA is to either develop the virus into viral vectors to target RNA virus first. So that's the initial plan for us to use. GGVA the grapevine Gemini virus A target grapevine leaf roll associated viruses. So before we eventually target that virus, we have to do a lot of different tests. We need to know if the clones the constructs or DNA constructs we have of this, GGVA can actually affect Gravelines plants, so we have to do that. And then we want to see if we can develop it into viral vector to carry the sequence we want them to express in grapevines to do the work we want them to do. So then we use it to target genes in the plants to see if they can silence the genes in the plants. So then we did that, we found that yes, we can use that viral vector to silence genes in plants. And then now we try to see that if we can use this viral vector to target other RNA viruses, or other grapevine RNA viruses, because we are actually at the same time developing different viral vectors, and one of them is GBA, is grapevine virus, a another's name, it can be very confusing. GGVA is a DNA virus. GVA is an RNA virus totally different to viruses. So since we have both viruses in the lab, so first, we try to prove the concept. We use the GGVA, the DNA virus, to target the GBA wild type virus, to see if we can see any effects. The GBA infection viral titers in the infected grapevines. So this is what we're working on right now. And so eventually, we want to use this viral vector, and potentially other viral vectors to to target grapevine leaf roll associated virus. And maybe we can use it to target mealybugs too.

Craig Macmillan 6:35

How are these vectors introduced to the plant?

Yen-Wen Kuo 6:38

We modify from the previous reports how people try to deliver those constructs the plasmids into grapevines. Most of the experiments or the assays, from before, they needed to have grapevine plants grown from in vitro, on media or from embryos. But that's really a lot of work. And it will be harder to have applications in the field. So then we develop vacuuming filtration method that we can directly vacuum infiltrate those plasmids that those DNA construct plasmids directly into the greenhouse grown grapevine plants. So those plants are propagated from the cuttings and then those plants, they are usually maybe 12 to 19 inches high above the soil when we infiltrated those plasmids into those grow vine plants. So this is an we got pretty good results, we successfully introduced those DNA constructs into the grapevine plans and those constructs can be infectious and initiate the whole the virus replicate in the grapevine.

Craig Macmillan 7:50

So is this something that can be done in a nursery then with new plants? And basically, they then would come with the vector or is it something you could do in the field?

Yen-Wen Kuo 7:57

Yes, I think the plan is that we can introduce those plasmas in the nursery in greenhouse plants before we plant them into the field. So then the plants that's planted into the field, they can have this viral vector to protect the plants from specific viruses.

Craig Macmillan 8:18

Got it. That's really neat. That's a great idea. And it's pretty cool. So that's fantastic. And in the work that you're doing so far, it sounds really exciting. And it sounds like the direction that you're kind of going in the future is with leaf roll virus that you mentioned. And then also, interaction with mealybugs you mentioned. Can you tell me more about that? What's that work all about?

Yen-Wen Kuo 8:39

Because this virus does GGVA and other viral vectors we're working on to a lot of viruses infecting grape vines, their phloem limited virus, so this GGVA is also phloem limited, meaning that the virus is can only infect the tissues around or in the phloem is restricted. It doesn't go to like mesophyll cells or epidermal cells in infected plants, because mealybugs they feed on phloems. So we think if they can pick up those RNA interference signals, may be those RNA interference signals those small RNAs can target mealybugs too. So we can choose different target sequences in mealybugs. Hopefully you can see some effects for many bucks to to prevent that from transmitting viruses or have lethal effects for mealybugs. That's the plan. Hopefully we can do that. But we have to do tests to see how the efficacy and everything though it can have mealybugs, because there are previously they are different studies they use RNAi on insects, and many people prove that they can see some effects. We hope that the viral vector approach can also use for really apply this into the field for grapevine plants.

Craig Macmillan 10:00

What kind of index on insects are we talking about?

Yen-Wen Kuo 10:03

Depends on what target genes or sequences we choose. For my first choice, I would like to have a target that can prevent the transmission of the virus by mealybug, that will be my choice. I'm not sure if it's good to kill the insects, if it's going to affect the ecology too much. So if we can make the mealybug not transmitting the virus or other diseases, I think there will be a very good first step if we can see a lower transmission rate. And and then we can see if we need to adjust from there.

Craig Macmillan 10:40

That is amazing. And we haven't, yeah, the little bit of research that I did we have we do have proof of concept basically on this in other cropping systems. Is that right?

Yen-Wen Kuo 10:55

Yes,

Craig Macmillan 10:55

Can you tell me a little bit more about that, because that might give us some some vision of where we might go in the vineyard industry.

Yen-Wen Kuo 11:01

So, the RNAi applications, people are already trying to do some of those works. So, one example is that before people can spray double stranded RNA into the field. So, let me talk a little bit about the introduction of why using double stranded RNA. So, there are different types of RNAs that can induce RNA interference, certain types, one of them is double stranded RNA, either double stranded RNA or the single stranded RNA, they can form into a secondary structure in folding into a structure like a hairpin RNA, those are found to be able to induce RNA interference. And there's also other things like artificial micro RNAs, there are different types of RNAs that can induce RNAi and most convenient ways to make double stranded RNA. And people have been synthesizing the double stranded RNA or using bacteria to produce those double stranded RNA and then spraying to the field to get some protection for the plants. It worked at some level, but it's just not stable enough. Although double stranded RNA is more stable compared to single stranded RNA, steroids and RNA can be degraded in the field with the sun and everything the whole environment it can be degraded, people started to look for ways like bio clay to protect the RNA, and then so, they can spray in the field. So, the RNA can last longer and cause the effects. So, those double stranded RNAs can be absorbed by the insects, they can pick up from the surface of the plant or the plant can absorb those double stranded RNA into the plants. So, those are different ways and people started to see some effects on that, but still, we have to improve those different methods delivering double stranded RNA or other types of RNA to induce RNA interference in the plant. So, they are different different approaches. So, one of that is now we are trying using virus to introduce the RNAi to induce the RNAi in the plants. So, people are trying different ways to deliver those specific RNAs to induce RNAi to target specific diseases, sometimes not just viral diseases, that they will try to target fungal disease or something else and insects. This is what many different groups they are trying to do also previously, another way is to try to make transgenic plants. So if we can make plants to express those RNAs that can induce RNAi targeting to specific diseases, then you don't need to really use any tool to the deliver because the transgenic plants itself can produce those RNAs doing to induce RNAi plants. So that's also another way that people are trying to do we call that host induced gene silencing HIGS, and the virus induced gene silencing is the way my group is working on and we call it VIGs vigs. So there are different ways that which we would use to introduce those RNAs to induce RNAi in the plants.

Craig Macmillan 14:31

And right now you are at the greenhouse stage, if I understand correctly.

Yen-Wen Kuo 14:35

Yes.

Craig Macmillan 14:36

Have you introduced mealybug into your experiments into your work yet?

Yen-Wen Kuo 14:40

Not yet. We are just working on targeting grapevine virus first to see the effects. So where we have to continue monitoring those tested plants to see if the effects can last long, and the efficacy and how good they can be. So now we're at four for five months, so it's still we can see the targeted virus is being suppressed in a very, very low titer. So GVA can cause some symptoms in the grapevine plants when they see the plans are infected. But we have to peel off the bark to see the symptoms, we want to see that after targeting to the GBA virus, we saw that the viral titer is very low, if we can see that, also, the symptoms is not there anymore, is now like wild type, when when the virus was infecting in the plants alone, if we can see the difference, we don't even see the symptoms there will be really great. And this part, hopefully I can collaborate with the collaborators, Maher, he's run the foundation plan services, he can help my group on this, to see that how good the effects can be using this GGVA viral vector. So after that, if we can successfully target two different viruses, then we will start to work to change the target sequence in this viral vector to target mealybugs. So that's after the virus work.

Craig Macmillan 16:12

Yeah, well, that's very exciting. This is a really fascinating idea, and obviously is still relatively new. And I think it's really great that you and everybody else is working on this sounds like there's tremendous potential, and I hope that you folks continue on are able to continue on, is there one thing really related to this topic, you would tell growers one thing that you would advise them or you would educate them with?

Yen-Wen Kuo 16:34

I understand that there could be some concerns and maybe doubts, questioning RNAi applications in the field, because before, they already probably heard about the spray of double stranded RNA or other methods, and they saw some effects but not stable enough. So they may have some concerns or doubts, I think many scientists are trying different delivery methods that can be applied efficiently in the field. And we will do different types of tests and trials to make sure we work on any potential issues of this technology before applying them in the field and try not to affect the whole ecology or anything in the field too. And obviously, the current approaches we have are not enough to keep certain grapevine diseases, at low enough incidence. So we have to explore more potential control approaches before those diseases get worse, and adjust the ways to manage those different grapevine diseases with this changing environment. And I think hopefully, we can all work together to achieve this same goal. And I understand this is something new, I hope everyone can keep an open mind and willing to work with us to do different trials and see if we can improve different approaches to control different diseases.

Craig Macmillan 17:58

Well, I hope so too. grape growers are very creative. And they're always looking for solutions to their problems that very much fit what you're describing. And it sounds to me, this could be another tool in the IPM toolbox that may not be the single solution may not be a silver bullet. But it sounds very exciting that it may play a very important role to improve the efficacy of other techniques we have, which is great. Where can people find out more about you?

Yen-Wen Kuo 18:22

So because I will, setting up my lab, so hopefully I can have a lab website soon. I don't have accounts at Twitter or Instagram.

Craig Macmillan 18:34

Neither do I.

Yen-Wen Kuo 18:36

I don't use social media a lot. So my email that people can reach me through the email. And hopefully, when this is up or in your podcast, I will have my lab website set up so people can find us our work, my lab website.

Craig Macmillan 18:53

And we will have links and everything else that we can find posted on the episode page at the Vineyard Team podcast website. I want to thank you for being on the program. This was really, really interesting and is a kind of a view into the future of what's possible. Yeah. Our guest today was Dr. Yen-Wen Kuo. She is with the Department of Plant Pathology at the University of California Davis. And I want to thank you for being on the podcast.

Yen-Wen Kuo 19:20

Thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate this opportunity to talk about research to explain some details about our work to the course and hopefully, I answer some questions that growers might have. I look forward to in the future maybe collaborating with different people to make this thing to work.

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The proportion of regular wine drinkers willing to pay more for sustainable wine has significantly increased in the past two years (IWSR, 2022). Your customers will only know that your wine was made sustainably if you tell them!

Using storytelling to share with your customers the specific things your brand does that are sustainable and why they are important (i.e. telling your Sustainable Story) helps make it clear that yours is a business that truly walks the walk when it comes to caring for the people and the planet. It builds an emotional connection and fills gaps in consumer knowledge of sustainability.

Plant and animal pests are a common issue for all winegrowers. Read on to learn how in an effort to conserve water and promote plant health, Jean-Pierre Wolff of Wolff Vineyards discovered a unique pest mitigation strategy!

Safe Pest Management at Wolff Vineyards In 2017, Jean-Pierre Wolff decided that rather than replanting his vines on the same rootstocks, he would convert to drought-resistant rootstocks and plant them three feet into the ground.

Deriving inspiration from an African palm farming technique, Jean-Pierre uses PVC pipes to deliver water and nutrients directly to the root zone. There is no wait time for the nutrients to be pushed to the roots, and no water is wasted through parts of the soil that contain no roots.

Along with the tremendous water savings resulting from his deeply planted vines and subsurface irrigation technology, Wolff has discovered an “indirectly obvious” benefit - fewer weeds!

Since water and fertilizer are applied through PVC pipes that lead directly to the root systems 3-feet underground, native and noxious weeds with shallow roots can’t access these resources, and therefore can’t thrive.

Vertebrate pests have also had little success in establishing themselves in these areas since they don’t typically dig to the depths at which the roots lie.

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Download the brand-new Sustainable Story worksheet. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. Simply download the worksheet linked in the show notes, complete it with your whole team, and keep following along with this podcast series to learn how to incorporate your story into every aspect of your marketing and sales.

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Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

P.S. We have a brand-new online course coming soon! In just a few weeks, you and your staff will have access to a free 30-minute Sustainable Story training that will teach you how to explain sustainability, coach you through writing your own Sustainable Story, and show you how talking about your good work can help sell more wine. Stay tuned.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story worksheet, read an example from Niner Wine Estates, to see the consumer segment infographic, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet * Safe Pest Management: Wolff Vineyards * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story? * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team

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When it comes to labor and employment, the best thing that you can do is be proactive, says Anthony P. Raimondo, Attorney, and Founder of Raimondo Miller A Law Corporation. Anthony covers the importance of accurate, individualized timekeeping, not just a work schedule. Today, there is software that supports both employers and employees. Right from your tablet or smartphone, you can track clock ins and outs, verify that the employee received their breaks, and even provide telehealth. Anthony provides an update on current union laws, what you need to know whether you use a management company or farm labor contractor, and how growers of any size can stay up to date with recent laws.

Resources: * REGISTER: 7/14/2023 Pre-Harvest Safety: Train-the-Trainer * Amendments to California Agricultural Bargaining Process Per Governor’s Agreement with Unions * California Alters Union Process for Agricultural Workers * Raimondo Miller A Law Corporation

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And with us today is Anthony Raimondo, he is an attorney and founder of the law firm of Raimondo and Miller in Fresno, California. And we're going to talk about some legal and regulatory things that are affecting growers all over the nation in the west coast and local states. Thanks for being here, Anthony.

Anthony Raimondo 0:15

Thank you for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:17

You've been interviewed and have written and have appeared widely and have had a number of interesting insights. And there are a couple of things that I picked up on from looking at when your interview is that I really for me, it spoke to me personally, because I was in the vineyard side of things for a long time. And that's the issue of timekeeping. I'd love to talk a little bit about the kind of exposure legal exposure that a grower might have around timekeeping, which on the surface sounds like a very simple thing and in the field turns out not to be a very simple thing. And also what kind of practices a grower might get into trouble for what some ways growers can protect themselves? What kind of what kind of experience do you have in this topic?

Anthony Raimondo 0:49

It's something that we deal with quite a bit, we deal with both the compliance aspect of things kind of that front end planning of how do we do things to stay out of trouble. But we also deal with the defense side, a lot of the litigation that's going on right now is class action or collective action litigation, where you have one or a couple of workers who stand in for the entire workforce, over a period of years alleging a range of different wage and hour type violations. And a lot of those things really come down to timekeeping.

Craig Macmillan 1:22

Gotcha. Now, what we used to do back in the day was people would show up, and the management would show up, and we had a clipboard with an eight and a half by 11 piece of paper. And we sign people in and check them off. And then we basically looked at our watches and said, Okay, we're starting at 9:05. And then everyone at work, then we check what time we came back for lunch, etc. It seems like that would work perfectly well. But we did have some issues with folks along the lines that that kind of disputed how accurate that was, or those are the kinds of things that get people kind of in trouble kind of backward, or what's the source of some of these complaints?

Anthony Raimondo 1:56

Well, those things have for a long time been in place and have for a long time have been an issue and a lot of it comes down to accuracy. So when you have what we call a daily cruciate, which is very traditional way of keeping a field where like you say, on a clipboard or something similar, we have a list of people's names. And you know, maybe the upper right corner, we have a start time and a stop time and everybody's name gets filled in on that list, with the total number of hours. And if there's piecework what units they produced at, et cetera. Well, way back in time, one of the very first lawsuits I dealt with in my career in agriculture was in a table grape operation, where they had a similar method of timekeeping. But what they actually did is they would cut the bottom off of one of the grape boxes, and the former for the crew would flip that over and draw a grid on the back of it, write, everybody's name on it, and would write the in and out types, as well as grid information and the total hours for each worker. So everybody had the same in and out time, because it was all being kept collectively. And in a deposition of one of those foreman, the plaintiff's attorney asked the foreman, how he prepared these cardboard time records. And he said, Well, you know, we come when the crew arrives, I get there a little bit before the crew and I draw the grid on the back, you know, I write the start time, and I write the stop time. And it was a very big aha moment for the plaintiff's attorney, because, of course, what she honed in on is that he's writing that start and stop time before any of those happen. Right? Because he's writing the start and stop time at the beginning of the day, what he's writing is the schedule of the crew, not the actual events that happen, we really need to have individualized time records, right, because somebody always shows up late, somebody always leaves early, having a crew of 10, 15, 20, 30 people where everybody has the same in and out time, really isn't terribly reliable, because it might generally be so that this is what happened here. There are they work together, they work the same. But as I mentioned, people show up late people leave early, somebody gets sick, somebody gets hurt, these things all happen, where those individual variations are what led to the accuracy of it, and also those records being kept contemporaneously. And what we've seen over the years, this accelerate in recent years, which I'm happy about, is the increasing use of technology as a solution. And I really think one of the most important thing for growers to do is to embrace technology as a solution. And it's not just about the legal compliance aspect of things. Some of the timekeeping solutions they have out there are fantastically advanced now. So, you know, we can have foremen now keeping time on a tablet. We have in some of the types of ag operations I deal with. We have harvesters who have individualized, it's almost like a nametag that they wear where they're in and out time can be kept visually, there's like it's like an electronic pen. They swipe that with the clock people in and clock people out there in and out times for their meal breaks recorded. We have devices where employees can clock in and out individually by cell phones if their smartphones. And by the way, a lot of those can be used for other types of risk management, a lot of the software that's out there now will ask the employee when they clock out at the end of the day, did you have any injuries today? Did you get your meal period today? It's your rest period today. They can be programmed to answer a series of questions that deal with a lot of our risk management issues not only related to things like Wage and Hour liability, but related to workplace safety related to workers compensation, this technology can have a multitude of different benefits, I have one client that I represent, and more started to do this sort of thing, who has even gone to using remote technology, what they really found, like medical triage out in the field. So they have a telemedicine link set up with a monitor out in the field where if a worker is injured, or report some type of illness or injury, they can actually connect remotely to medical providers who can evaluate that injury very quickly. And a lot of times, what they've done is they've reduced their workers comp claims, because they can deal with the small things. First Aid incidents out in the field which aren't reportable to workers comp, rather than the treatment gets delayed, response gets delayed. And then something that could have been dealt with as a first aid accident in the moment now becomes a medical visit down the road, which just creates cost for everybody. So there's a lot of technology out there as an industry need to embrace.

Craig Macmillan 6:21

That's really interesting, because I think that actually is a benefit for both workers and for management.

Anthony Raimondo 6:25

Absolutely.

Craig Macmillan 6:26

If I have confidence that my hours are getting counted accurately, I'm more confident, more secure. If I'm being asked, you know, did these things happen? It does cause me to reflect and say yes or no or whatever. That's it, I think it's really cool. And these are things can be done on a tablet can be done on a phone remotely. Obviously,

Anthony Raimondo 6:41

There's there's a variety of different ways to do this. There are even methods for where there is no internet connection, or there's no cell phone signal. You know, a lot of our folks are in areas where signals are. We've seen for years and years, especially in like the strawberry industry. And some of the other areas of the industry I deal with, they have these, you know, we call them pens, but they're these big data devices. And they will actually save the data on that device. And that can be brought to an office after the is over dropped off the data downloaded. And you can preserve your data, even when you don't have a connection where the tablet or cell phone works. So there's a wide variety of technological solutions available. And I think you're absolutely correct. The best thing about a lot of these solutions is they really are win wins for both the workforce and the employees. You know, it's an it's an interdependence in the industry, the employees need the job and the income, the employer needs the employees to be able to get the work done to produce the product, we can have solutions that work for everybody and benefit everybody.

Craig Macmillan 7:39

That's fantastic. This is new to me. So I'm really glad to hear that this kind of thing is happening. I want to switch gears a little bit here. There's been some changes, I believe in the agricultural Labor Relations Act or the way that it works. Regarding unionization, can you tell us a little bit about that and what the implications might be?

Anthony Raimondo 7:55

Yeah, I'm gonna qualify this because some of it is very much in flux, because there are some regulatory activity going on the agricultural labor relations board in terms of the implementation of the new law. So let me back up and give you what what used to be the case. So you can have context for what the what the changes that has been made, historically, our going back to 1975, when the when the Act was first implemented, what are the things that was going on prior to the ACA was this kind of wild west world of unionization, and there was a big struggle between the United Farm Workers and the teamsters as to who was going to represent workers out in the field, it was very, very contentious. It was one of the things that led to the passage of the agricultural Labor Relations Act, because sometimes that contentiousness even broke out into violence between the competing unions, but what happened was, there was a perception amongst some growers that the teamsters made would be easier for them to deal with or more favorable for them to deal with than the United Farm Workers Union. So a lot of growers that before the law passed would sign contracts with the with the Teamsters, in order to keep the UFW United Farmworkers out. So one of the things that Cesar Chavez actually insisted on when the act was developed was that the only way for a union to gain the right to represent workers in agriculture be through a secret ballot election. In our Federal Labor Law employer believes there has evidence that a majority of their workers want a union, they can simply recognize the union and say, okay, the people want you. Let's sit down and negotiate. Chavez didn't want that because he was afraid that growers would actually voluntarily recognize the union, the teamsters union to cut the UFW out of the equation. So there was this insistence have to have secret ballot elections, because secret ballot elections will actually show truly who the workers want to represent them. So the way the process has worked ever since and is a union has to get a majority of workers to sign what are called authorization cards, which are just little cards that say they want to be represented by the union. They would turn those into the agricultural labor relations With a petition document that answered certain qualifying questions, and if all of the requirements were met for an election, including a majority of workers are expressing a desire to have the union, the agricultural Labor Relations Board would send personnel out to the field, they'd set up a ballot box in a voting booth, you know, much like we would do in an in person election in the political world, and the workers would vote in their secret ballot election, yes or no whether they want a union. Ballots would be counted. And assuming there were no irregularities in the election, that result would be certified. And if the union won that election, they would become the representative of the employees of that employer. What has happened over the years is that the UFW has become extremely ineffective when it comes to organizing farm workers. They simply cannot win elections. And in recent years, they really organizing has been dead, because every time even when they try to organize workers, they either fail, or they end up losing the election. Even if they can get a majority of those cards to get an election, they lose the election. And in the last 10 year, there have been far more elections to actually vote the UFW out from workers who no longer want their representation than there have been elections to vote the UFW . The combination of this pattern. And a few years ago at a large farm in the San Joaquin Valley called Groveland farms. I was involved in this because what happened there was the union and won an election back in the 90s, and had never had a contract there. They kind of went away for a long time, and no one had heard from them. The I want to say 16 ,17 years of no contact between the company, the union, all of a sudden the union pops up and says we still represent these workers, we want to have a contract, the workers found out about it, they didn't want the union. And a group of these workers came to me and I ended up representing these workers for five years on a pro bono basis, we forced an election to be held, the state did not want to count the ballot for those elections, we had to litigate that ultimately, we won that litigation. And 85 plus percent of the workers had voted against the union. And that no, that company remains a non non union. As a reaction to that you now have a law where that was just passed, it took effect January one of this year, that really were for practical purposes removes the secret ballot election from this scenario. Now, there are two alternatives under the law, what they call a labor peace election and a non labor peace election. These aren't really elections, a labor peace election is something that we're probably never going to see because it requires a grower to sign and file a document with the state that says that they will never oppose union representation amongst their workers, growers just simply do that, if that happens, there's a mail ballot process that will happen where the union can gain representation rights to these mail ballots. But I really don't think it's ever going to happen. What really the law is, is now if a union gets a majority of workers to sign something like authorization cards, some document that says, we want the union, instead of that triggering an election to happen, that's now going to lead to a union certification, and the union will gain the right to represent the workers without election. Let me backup. So what we will see happen now is the union representation process. And this is really the meat of this law is where previously a union having worker sign authorization cards or some other similar document, expressing a desire to be represented by the union. Historically, that would mean let's have an election and find out what these workers really want. And by the way, as I mentioned earlier, in a vast majority of circumstances, the union would have an overwhelming majority of those cards. But when presented with a secret ballot, the workers would vote against the Union. But now, those authorization cards alone will be enough for the Union to become certified as the representative of the workers, which will create a duty to bargain by the grower to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement with the union. And it's important for growers to understand, especially in the wine industry, because there's such a prevalent use of vineyard managers and farm labor contractors. When you have a foreign labor contractor, under this law, the farm labor contractor doesn't exist, those employees are attributed to the grower. So it's not like if the union comes in, the grower can get rid of one farm labor contract or hire another one be free of the Union, the union will still be there that attaches to the grower not to a labor contractor. And for these purposes, in a majority of situations, even a vineyard manager would be considered a farm labor contractor. Under the law. There are some circumstances where a vineyard manager can actually stand in the shoes of the grower. But those are really where you have like an absentee landowner and a vineyard manager that has a long term history of managing the particular property such that the vineyard manager really is acting as the grower. But in most circumstances where there are vineyard managers and farm labor contractors, the union obligation will attach to the grower not to that manager not to that contract.

Craig Macmillan 14:59

Interesting. And so the implications for this are that people may organize or be organized. And the, the quality of the decision is a little bit questionable that kind of what the takeaway is?

Anthony Raimondo 15:16

Yeah, I think it's very prone to fraud. It's very prone to deception. I've been doing this for a long time in a lot of different industries. And I've been involved in a lot of different union elections, and employees sign these cards for a lot of different reasons. Sometimes it's because they truly want a union. Other times they don't understand what it is that they're signing. Other times they're pressured into signing, sometimes there is outright fraud. There's a lot of different issues with this. But one of the big issues I think, to keep in mind, which is disturbing about this law, is that if you look at the history of federal labor law, going back to the 1930s, and the National Labor Relations Act, which governs unionization in all industries except agriculture, there's a principle there that underlies union elections. And the idea is that the workers should hear a vigorous debate on both sides of the question of unionization of why they should or why they shouldn't vote for the Union. And then do do when a democracy when we need to make decisions about our collective future, go to a ballot box and vote by secret ballot, where nobody knows what your vote was. And you have that freedom to say yes or no, based on your own choice. Not somebody coming up to you, under some circumstances, that you're not worrying, we can't identify and saying, hey, sign this thing. Like I said, I've seen deception, I've seen coercion, I've seen outright fraud, some number of them may be genuine, but there's just no way of knowing has no way of controlling it. And the workers are not going to hear both sides of the debate before they make that decision. They're going to hear only from the union, they're going to sign these documents. And in many cases, the decision will be made and the issue will be over before the grower or the employer even has a chance to present why they think the workers don't need a union. It's already illegal to threaten workers against unionization, it's illegal to coerce them in any way. But there is fundamentally in the core of labor relations law a right of free speech, where we have until recently viewed it as healthy for workers to hear a vigorous debate and a vigorous campaign on both sides from both the union and from the employer, and then make their decision at the ballot box. That is what's been taken away from workers, which is very, very disturbing to me. And when I represented the workers, at Gerawan Farms, the lady who was kind of the spokesperson for the worker effort made a really great statement actually, in a TV interview that always stuck with me and sticks with me to this day, the UFW charges dues that are 3% of the workers wages. And she looked at the camera TV interview and said, I think I can use that 3% For my children better than the UFW can.

Craig Macmillan 18:02

Yeah, I can see that that's gonna be an interesting situation coming up here in the future. This is kind of a related question. Many employer employee conflicts, I think where the some of this connected to can be resolved around some kind of effective, transparent internal grievance process where you can handle things internally to address people's concerns or whatever the grievances or whatever, in your experience, what does an effective internal grievance process look like?

Anthony Raimondo 18:29

Well, it's something that I think is very important, as you mentioned, for labor relations purposes. And now I'm just talking about the general relationship between an employer and its workforce, there are always going to be issues that arise. And for a healthy business, what you really want is workers to be able to come forward with those concerns, and communicate them where you can respond in a way where you can come to an agreement about what should be done. And it may it doesn't mean you just say yes to everything. But it means that the workers understand that their voice is heard. And if the answer is no, they understand why the answer is no. So what that really means is number one, you need personnel involved who are bilingual, we operate in what is a primarily Spanish speaking industry. So we need folks who who are bilingual who can educate with the workers. This typically is done through an HR department if you have an effective HR department, but they have to be visible to the people out in the field and known to the people so they need to get out of the office, go out and visit with the crews introduce themselves to the crews, to the workers themselves, not just to the foreman and make sure that people know who they are and know them by name, that they have contact information that is out there to the workers so the workers know how to reach them, and that the workers understand the process that operates outside of the normal chain of command and it doesn't have to go through their foreman or through their supervisor because if it goes to the foreman of the supervisor, what happens if the problem for the employee is the foreman or the supervisors?

Craig Macmillan 19:54

Right, right.

Anthony Raimondo 19:57

We have a process that is outside of that immediate chain command that if necessary, can go straight to the top of authority at the company to address problems and get problems solved. I've seen it be successful. I mean, I'll give you a great example is a longtime client of mine, who is a labor contractor has a very active HR department and they are extremely engaged. And one of the attorneys who works for me actually went with one of the HR representatives out to a location where the company was providing the staffing and providing the employees. And when they got out of the out of the car at the location, the employees were all waving to this HR person and greeting her by name, hi, hi, great to see you. Like they all knew her and they were comfortable. And there was this relationship and dialogue back and forth. So that workers would feel comfortable if there was an issue or there was a concern, you know, anything from Hey, our wages are too low, our equipments not safe, we don't have what we need, the forman it is abusing us, our time records are not correct. Anything that it might be, as an employer, you want those things to come to you. Because then you can solve them. If they don't come to you, they're gonna go somewhere else where there may not be a solution, whether it's a union, a government agency and attorney, but situations where the problem will actually become exacerbated and may not even get solved. Whereas if you have an effective process to understand what's going on on the ground, you can confront those issues and solve those problems before they become bigger problems. When employees have that avenue to communicate and resolve workplace issues internally with the company. It goes a long way. You know, employees go to union because they feel like they don't have a voice in their workplace. And they feel like there are problems that simply cannot get resolved without bringing in that third party. When they feel like they can solve problems internally, they're going to solve that they're going to use that process and they're not going to reach out to that union. They're they're much more resistant to it, because they have to pay for the Union. Why? Why pay a third party, something that you can do for yourself if you feel like you can.

Craig Macmillan 22:05

And possibly have something resolved quickly, effectively and amicably. And I think that's, I think that's absolutely right. I think that human components, huge really, really important. Sometimes we get into our own little boxes, and when the little boxes are not talking to each other when people can actually talk to each other.

Anthony Raimondo 22:21

I think we underestimate the importance of the the relationship aspect of every part of business, including the employer employee relationship.

Craig Macmillan 22:30

Yeah, exactly, exactly. We're getting close to run out of time. But there's one more thing I wanted to ask you, again, you have so much experience in this area. The farming operations vary tremendously in terms of their size, especially when maybe not especially but certainly in the vineyard industry. It seems like it's nearly impossible for a small grower to stay on top and stay compliant with constantly changing and expanding regulatory landscape. They have a lot to do, and they don't have a lot of staff to do it. Given the regulatory burden on a cultural operations. Do you have any advice for small growers and how they can successfully navigate the environment stay on top of these things?

Anthony Raimondo 23:03

I think there's a number of things that people can do. For example, on our website, raimondomiller.com, you can sign up for email, where we put out a lot of information about new laws or new regulations as they come out. And that's completely free. We work I've worked for a long time with the dairy industry where there's a lot of small farms as well as in the wine industry, where we have a lot of smaller employers. And one of the things that we strive to do as a firm is to establish relationships with industry associations, I do a lot of speaking of for different industry associations. And if there's any folks from those kinds of associations listening right now I do those things for free. I've never charged anybody for those things. Were on any topics that anybody wants, we can give updates, we can give other information out one on one and I travel, travel just about anywhere to do that. In a couple of weeks, I will be heading down to Temecula to speak to some wine groups, wine growers down there, which I do, then big event down there called great days, which I do every year. It's a wonderful, wonderful event and a great way to get information out. There are times where we have made relationships with industry associations where they're smaller farmers, where the association will pay our law firm to essentially provide advice consulting input, discounted services to farming operations. You know, we've we've made arrangements with associations where we do things like employee handbooks and other risk management devices on a significantly discounted rate and provide free consultation to their members and those kinds of things can be worked out. I think one of the things that's different about our firm is that we really do strive to be able to work with folks within the industry to make resources and information and advice available to the smallest farmers.

Craig Macmillan 24:48

That is wonderful. Yeah,

Anthony Raimondo 24:50

There's the big guys but the big guys have resources to get what they need, you know, in terms of human resource consulting, in House lawyers, outside law firms. It's really I think the little guys we've got to watch out for in this industry. And most of my career, I've represented family farms and family businesses. And that's kind of the niche that we fit into. If folks are out there, and they're looking for these types of resources, reach out to me. And let's, let's get an introduction with your local association. And let's see if we can work something out where we can provide some time and some resources to making sure that even the smallest members of those associations have access to the information and the resources that they need.

Craig Macmillan 25:29

So there is some support out there, small growers, not in isolation. It sounds like we've got places to go and people to talk to you. And I think it's really great going to the associations, because people will go to those meetings, they're very interested in those topics might draw them to those meetings. So I really appreciate the work that you folks are doing on that kind of wrapping up here. What is what is one thing that you would tell grape growers, just in general, regarding any of these types of issues, HR issues, other labor related things?

Anthony Raimondo 25:57

I think that being proactive is extremely important and understanding what risk management tools are out there for you and what you can do to protect yourself and what is a very difficult and complicated legal and regulatory environment. You know, we started off talking about technology and things like timekeeping, I think stuff like that is really valuable. employee handbooks are really, really important contracts between growers and vineyard managers and labor contractors in writing. You know, a lot of agriculture historically has been done on a handshake basis. And I kind of wish we still lived in that world, but we don't live in that world anymore, need to have written agreements, arbitration agreements for employees are a very powerful risk management tool that we'd love to see folks expand the use of, and it's a very, very inexpensive way to reduce risk. Insurance strategies are really important. There's a lot of great information out there through insurance brokers, for example, most of the insurance brokers that I know in agriculture provide a ton of free help with Cal OSHA compliance. In fact, when when farmers, mostly small farmers call me and they want help with Cal OSHA compliance. Usually, the first place I send them is their insurance broker, because a lot of those guys will do that stuff for free. So understanding what you what you get for free and what it makes sense to pay for it, how much it makes sense to pay for it is a valuable tool. But employee handbooks are important written policies are important training is important. And figuring out how to get those things in a way that is the most cost effective, especially for a small farmer is is really important. And it means not being afraid to reach out and ask questions. And I always take calls from farmers, my cell phone rings, anytime a day. And I'll try to help folks find those kinds of resources. And, you know, I don't want folks to be afraid to call me I'm not going to charge you for a phone call. If you're calling me asking me, How can I get access to some of these resources, I'll try to point you in the right direction, figure out where you can find resources at a cost and with a strategy that works for you. But what I don't want you to do is stick your head in the sand and just be reactive instead of proactive we can in this environment. If we work together. And we reach out, ask for help ask questions. Be proactive.

Craig Macmillan 28:12

That is great advice. And I think we would all be wise to think about that. It's hard to be proactive sometimes. But the benefits are many, many, many, many, many times greater than the downsides that you might think you're going to run into where can people find out more about you? You've already mentioned, your willingness to talk to people.

Anthony Raimondo 28:32

We have a website at WWW. Raimondomiller.com. I'm happy to give out my cell phone number. It's not secret. I'll put it out right here on the air. It's Area code 559-801-2226. Anybody's welcome to give me a call anytime and say, Hey, I heard you on the podcast. I got a couple of questions for you. I'm happy to take those calls. If for some reason you can't reach me, leave me a voicemail. It's rare that I go more than a couple hours without responding to somebody's phone call. I've represented dairy and livestock guys for years. So you know my phone doesn't turn off until they turn the cows off, which is never so never. I'm always happy to talk to farmers and I'm always happy to see what I can do to help. So feel free to give me a call. Feel free to the website.

Craig Macmillan 29:14

We appreciate it very much. So I guess today has been Anthony Raimondo is an attorney and founder of Raimondo Miller law firm in Fresno, California. Anthony Hey, thanks for being here. This is a really great conversation. I'm glad you take the time.

Anthony Raimondo 29:28

Wonderful. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

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Not all wine tasters are alike - a major understatement. As traffic ebbs and flows in tasting rooms, it’s evident that interests, price points, and preferences differ.

In the tasting room you get a wide variety of customers. There’s the outgoing couple that wants to know all the details of wine production. There is the lone taster on vacation with a notebook who just makes his own tasting notes. And naturally, there’s the group of friends who get a little boisterous and lose interest when the tasting room host talks about technical attributes of the wine. Wine Intelligence recently published a study outlining six distinct consumer segments in wine. It’s important to know how to talk to each of them about sustainability.

Engaged Explorers: Young, fun, ready for adventure and super into trying new wines, regions, and producers. These are consumers who like to travel to wine regions and are likely to spend more.

SIP Talk: Talk about sustainability vs. organic and biodynamic. They’ll appreciate the knowledge!

Premium Brand Suburbans: These folks skew older, know what they like and know a lot about wine. They’re usually not big spenders, but in wine country can be die-hard loyalists at any price.

SIP Talk: Get technical and talk about how fruit quality is measured- Brix, pH, and TA. They’ll dig the attention to detail!

Contented Treaters: They don’t drink a ton, but when they do, they don’t care how much it costs and are looking for an engaging origin story to tell at one of their fabulous cocktail parties.

SIP Talk: Stick to casual cocktail talk and discuss fun elements of sustainable vineyards like using owls and other integrated pest management practices.

Social Newbies: They’re young, new to wine and relying heavily upon recommendations and valued information.

SIP Talk: Stick to the three Ps of sustainability- People Planet, Prosperity. They’ll love this 360° approach and be able to pass it along with confidence.

Senior Bargain Hunters: The largest segment of wine drinkers in the USA, they appreciate value.

SIP Talk: Value-driven sustainable initiatives like monitoring utility usage and recycling programs.

Kitchen Casuals: Very infrequent wine drinkers who rarely stray from what they know and are not as interested in wine as they are in other beers and spirits.

SIP Talk: Stick to the basics of what sustainability is and how drinking SIP Certified wine is a win for the people and environment.

Does Your Team Know Your Sustainable Story? Need an easy way to help your team talk about your sustainable practices?

Download the brand-new Sustainable Story worksheet. This simple yet powerful free tool that helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. Simply download the worksheet linked in the show notes, complete it with your whole team, and keep following along with this podcast series to learn how to incorporate your story into every aspect of your marketing and sales.

Plus, we are inspiring you by sharing what likeminded brands are doing to care for the people and the planet.

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

For those of you who are SIP Certified, check your mailbox. Just in time for the summer winetasting season, we have mailed you table signs featuring a graphic of the 7 Values of SIP Certified plus a QR code to “read this month’s Sustainable Story”.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story worksheet, read an example from Niner Wine Estates, too see the consumer segment infographic, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic * What's your Sustainable Story? * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team * Wine Customer Segments and How to Talk SIP With Them

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As a wine producer, you owe it to yourself to talk about your sustainable practices as much as you can. Amanda Wittstrom Higgins, Principal at Full Cup Solutions explains that you never know what unique story about your brand will engage your next consumer, trade account, team member, or press writer. Use video and photos to capture specific practices including cover cropping, reusing barrels, and community donations. With a bank of digital collateral, you can easily bring practices to life online. Amanda shares simple and effective staff training tools, how to quickly build rapport with clients, and why sharing your story makes you stand out in the marketplace.

Resources: * 82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer * 104: How to Tell Your Story on Instagram * 132: Are you Talking About your Sustainability Efforts? | Marketing Tip Monday * 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine * 176: What's your Sustainable Story? | Marketing Tip Monday * Amanda’s Instagram * Amanda’s LinkedIn page * Dream Big Darling - Amanda’s non-profit * Full Cup Solutions * Full Cup Solutions Instagram * Wine Speak Paso * Seasons of Sustainability – SIP Certified * SIP Certified Eco-Chart * SIP Certified Marketing Tips e-Newsletter * Sustainable Story Worksheet - Electronic | Print

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Today our guest is Amanda Wittstrom Higgins she is the Principal of Full of Cup Solutions. And we're gonna be talking about sustainability communication for wineries and vineyards. Thanks for being on the show, Amanda.

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 0:10

Oh, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me, Craig.

Craig Macmillan 0:13

First of all, tell us a little bit about what you do. What is Full Cup Solutions do?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 0:16

Thanks for asking Craig Full Cup Solutions is a strategic advising company aimed at elevating agriculture and the beverage industry, I work with companies to help uncover their greatest gifts and tell their stories to customers and partners, all while making their company more efficient from an operational perspective is really just coming in and acting as an advisor.

Craig Macmillan 0:39

So what roles do sustainability efforts play within a company and beyond considering resources? So you're coming in and you're helping people kind of find ways of kind of telling their story is kind of how I understand it. A lot of companies are doing things internally, what's the benefit? Or what are the roles of things to take it outside the company?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 0:56

It's a great question. So sustainability is a really important element of most companies. And I think I've grown up as a farmer and worked in the wine and beverage industry for the last 15 years, both on a national scale as well as direct to consumer. And I think that there's a real opportunity for brands to stand out in the marketplace, through sharing their stories of sustainability, you can stand out in the marketplace, you can stand up to prospective employees, and really just stand out as a farming community, which I think is really, really important. You have to remember that close to 20% of wine consumers live in five metropolitan areas. So the majority of the world

Craig Macmillan 1:42

Wow!

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 1:42

It's pretty crazy. And actually close to 50% live in 25. metropolitan areas. So it's really interesting when you think about it, from a consumer perspective how little most people know about farming. And when we talk sustainability, Craig, especially at the Vineyard Team, and for SIP, it's not just farming practices, you know, it's social responsibility, its economic viability, it's a very holistic approach, which I love, and I think is very encompassing of great business. Beyond simply conserving and those resources, I think that there's huge advantages for companies to talk about what they do, not only in the field, but within their own communities. And for the industry at large. I like to look at it as an overlap between social and environmental progress, and financial gain. It's a shared values opportunity, where you can do good things and still have a direct impact on your company, as well as the community.

Craig Macmillan 2:43

I think you actually I've kind of already moved into this, but I know that you like to talk about the farming aspect of things you come from a farming background. And obviously, folks that live in these more urban metropolitan areas really don't have a connection to that when it comes to communicating a company's sustainability story. Why focus on the farming as opposed to other areas of the operation, let's say like, the winery where they're doing water, conservation of the solar power, or something like that, what what's special about farming?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 3:10

As a producer, you owe it to yourself to talk about as much as you can. So you never really know what's going to engage the person on the other side. And I think that in the wine business, and in the farming business, we tend to talk about what we know about and that's the product, right? It's how we made it, it's how we farmed. But some of the things that are really magical that captivate the consumer that could attract your next employee could attract the next media reviewer to write about you, or perhaps your distribution or retail partner are things that you might not realize are as special as they really are. Because they're so close to you. Farming is one of those things that because the majority of consumers and the majority of the world doesn't come from a farming background. It's a little bit of a mystery to most people. And my experience is farmers are really like magical people. They deeply care about the environment, their salt of the earth, you know, it gets me emotional, just thinking about it. And that's actually one of the reasons that I launched my company, Full Cup Solutions was because I felt like I kept seeing the wine industry decline. And wine is such a beautiful beverage. It's you know, it's taking the best parts of our environment of farming and it's sharing them with people around community and meals, which I think is the fabric of what this world needs to become a better place. I really feel that wine has the opportunity of being bring people together. But you know, when you're talking about farming as opposed to other areas of the operation, I think you need to talk about all of it. But I don't think you should forget how special farming is in particular. It can be a great way to stand out it can be a great way to educate the the greater population that doesn't have regular exposure to agriculture.

Craig Macmillan 5:04

Right, right. I think that's fantastic. And I agree with you, there's a magical quality to this. That was what drew me into the industry was being exposed to grape vines for the first time. And I was it was magical. It really was. And I have, I'd love to have that experience. But I can introduce people to that there. It's just a magical thing. the winemaking process is magical. And like you said, there's this there's a social glue that can come from sharing something like wine, which is, again, a really nice part of the whole picture. So consumers are definitely interested in sustainability. They're also interested in other things related to wine product, what would you say are the top seven or so things that consumers care about most? When it comes to a wine product?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 5:41

Well, I think that sustainability is certainly important. It's towards the top, I'd say it's in the top 10. But it's not number one, when you are dealing with what's most important, I think, you know, quality is number one, quality is number one, price is also very important, packaging, brand story, the service and the experience that a consumer receives, the place that the product comes from, and sustainability. And I think that knowing what a consumer wants is the first step to helping you stand out. So it's not simply all or nothing with any one topic with any one type of content, it's really making sure that you know, your plan your communication strategy, and that, you know, the fabric of your company really encompasses all the things that are important to your consumer, to your prospective employees. And, you know, to your shareholders, constituents.

Craig Macmillan 6:32

I want to come back to something you said a couple of times that I think is really, really interesting. And it applies definitely to my life. In attracting employees. Tell me more about that. Because that's the you're the first person I've talked to that's included that as part of a sustainability messaging.

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 6:45

It's critical. If you look at how to create a sustainable company, right? It's about people, people are incredibly important, it's important for you to realize that you can almost not accomplish any goal without quality people, some of the things that you may be doing and maybe taking for granted, could be something that attracts those people to your company, the next generation, I think all generations want to be part of something that special that's got longevity, you know, that stands for something bigger than simply selling a product and, and receiving cash flow. So making sure that you're aware of it gets you one step closer.

Craig Macmillan 7:24

I think you're absolutely right. That's a really interesting idea. I think having folks that are attracted to a company based on kind of like shared values, and they're kind of in line with the overall kind of orientation of the organization, I think is huge. And you have a lot of retention is another part of that you know, someone who's going to stay for a while, can you give me examples of some of the things that maybe you've recommended to your clients in some of these areas, things that were kind of actionable?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 7:48

Depending on what channel you're looking at, to engage, whether it's social media, there's certainly options, I think bringing your practices to life is really important through video and imagery. And so I would suggest making sure that you're documenting even some of the most simple procedures, whether it's like, hey, we've got farm chickens on the ranch. And, you know, this is why they benefit soil health. And we actually donate the eggs to, you know, the local school or, or whatever it might that sustainability and a number of factors. And it may seem really small, but you never know how you're going to capture that next person that could be interested in you in your brand and your story. Something else would be like right now beautiful cover crops, right? You've got that sweet pea blend that you're seeing all over the place. Now why? Why is that important? How does that help with soil health, water conservation, wildlife habitat, I love seeing people foraging for natural resources, whether that's an experience for their consumers or something that they're enjoying, you know, just as as a fun event, or even just from an educational perspective, animal identification and discovery of plant. Teaching and sharing with the world the resources that you have, and those things that are important to you as a company from a farming perspective. Now you could also go and talk about like, reusable, whether it's a fallen tree and why fallen trees are you know, a great source of firewood or what are you doing with you know, your old barrel bongs? Are you making dog toys? Are you reusing barrel planters from other for for some other purpose or gifting them to your wine club? from a community perspective? Are you sponsoring youth teams? Are you volunteering for mentorship or educational opportunities for your employees? So there's a number of different things that you can do to provide examples and that's to a consumer. Now, if you're looking at say that the trade or accounts or national retailers if perhaps you're your wine producer, you know, this is a really important category within a lot of the national you know, retail set as well as on premise and off premise on independent making sure that you've got Whatever those principles are, and those fabric of of sustainability for you making sure that it's present and available, and you know, and recorded digitally, so that you can share that with others is really important. And from a media perspective, you never know what is going to engage the next journalist. And so by having these types of activities available, either on your website or social media, or as part of your email campaigns, you know, you might just touch someone in a way that's very authentic to you. And meaningful to them. And only good can come from it. Right. And I, I highly suggest, you know, authenticity is the only way to carry yourself in this sustainability perspective. But yeah, absolutely touch people in all sorts of different ways.

Craig Macmillan 10:46

So we have all these many channels, we have social media, I see a lot of things in print, in terms of like travel magazines, or local guides, I see a lot of material and tasting rooms in terms of posters, or pamphlets, or photos and things kind of what's the strategy you might recommend to folks in terms of using these different channels?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 11:05

One of the old, the old sayings was that you have to touch someone seven times before they purchase from you. And that statistic has been increased to 16 times.

Wow!

It's amazing. It's amazing, the world is full of content, I would say, do as much as you can, and make sure that you are utilizing that information in a multitude of two ways and repurposing it for your different channels, as you mentioned. So, you know, I love video, I love imagery, I think that, you know, a picture's worth 1000 words and a videos worth a million. So if we can bring people into our farms or into our business to showcase what we're doing from a sustainable perspective, I think that that adds an incredible amount of value. Social media is a great way to integrate that for very low cost. email campaigns are really important building your your email list for your true fans. Blogs are really terrific. And then making sure you got you know, sustainability sprinkled in throughout your website, during your in person experience, you know, making sure that that's part of your staff training, your team really understands that this is a point of distinction for us as a company, and this is part of our values. And it needs to be mentioned, and it's what customers are looking for.

Craig Macmillan 12:24

Do you think there's particular areas around sustainability that consumers are most interested in? And are there particular areas that they're probably the least familiar with?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 12:33

The social equality aspect that the SIP program touches on is something that not everyone thinks of when they think of sustainability, and that's something that I really love. And over my years in the industry, that's something that gets a lot of raised eyebrows, when you mentioned, the preservation of natural resources is really important. There's certainly several other programs that touch on that. But I think that social equality is really important, and especially in this day and age, how we treat our our people is, is something that's very important.

Craig Macmillan 13:05

How do you do that? And the reason I asked in such a fashion is you're right, that's an area that's often overlooked, and is insanely important. And I'm just trying to imagine, in my mind, how do I how do I convey that to people? What's the framing here?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 13:20

Well, I think it has to be factual, you know, I think that it has to be something that's near and dear to your heart. And whether it's caring about people within your team within your community, or a bigger cause, it needs to be something that, you know, that's actually true. And it's not like you lead with it from a communication perspective. But Must! Charities is a great example of an organization that a lot of members within your group contribute to, and it's about really helping a specific region that is in need, and bettering that part of our community. So if there are things that you're passionate about whether it's certifications for your tasting room team to have WSECT level one or level two, or perhaps you create an internship program, or you're collaborating with the university, or perhaps there is, you know, some type of a, of a nonprofit that you align with or that you like to promote from within and, and that your average tenure for an employee is X amount of years, I think those are all things that can be talked about from a social responsibility, perspective that are important to consumers and, and just help create that link to your brand. From a sustainability perspective that get gets people to engage long term.

Craig Macmillan 14:39

You've mentioned a number of really, really great things in terms of the where consumers are coming from, how do we find these things out? How do we find out what consumers are interested in?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 14:48

Well, I think asking would be great. Asking though, you know,

Craig Macmillan 14:54

I'm chuckling because that's one of my things where people be talking about this or that and I'll say, Well, did you ask them They're like, No. And I'm like, Well, why don't you do that? Why don't you go ask him what they want? Or ask them what they're afraid of, or whatever it is. And does this take place like in the tasting room? Is a survey information? Is this, like surveys on Facebook? Or little quizzes on Instagram would? How do we talk to people?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 15:15

I think one on one engagement and in the tasting room is a great way to start, I think that you're always going to get authentic insights. When you're in person, you know, whether it's your media partner, or your trade partner, your distributor partner, or a consumer or a wine club member, or even your staff. I mean, these are great places to start with just asking the question. Surveys are a great tool as well. You know, surveys on social media are also wonderful. But yeah, I would say just start with, hey, what's important to you and go from there.

Craig Macmillan 15:49

Obviously, tasting room staff are going to be huge here. Because of these, this is the interface with the consumer on a one on one way for a lot of folks, what advice do you have around training staff, training your tasting room staff?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 16:00

Oh, my gosh, I have so many ideas. You know, I think that, like many consumers, a lot of the hospitality staff that works in tasting rooms is probably not that familiar with farming, and viticulture, especially if you are in, you know, a rural environment, which most wine regions are, you know, I think having a solid top notch staff training program is really, really important. I even like to recommend kind of a conversation flowchart for when someone asks this, this is, this might be a great way to respond. Trying to develop rapport quickly with your guests is something that's really important and figuring out what are they most looking for, in this experience, you know, some people are just coming in to taste and enjoy perhaps a companionship with whomever that they they came with. And other people are deeply inquisitive. And if those individuals are deeply inquisitive, and that person, or can that individual offer a rich experience. And the best way to do that is to make sure that you've got tremendous assets from a training perspective available, whether that's tech sheet, or even the really like your eco chart that you've got on your website that talks about the difference between sustainability and biodynamic and organic, organic, from a certification perspective is really important. So just making sure you've got a lot of different assets and tools in a toolbox, ready for your staff. Something else that I love to have is, again, the videos and the pictures are really important. One thing that you all have on your website is like a seasonal sustainability chart, which I think is really terrific. Because if you can create some type of a email campaign or group text message, or whatever it is talking about the seasonality of sustainability, from the vineyard perspective, I think that can be really powerful. So it's not the same conversation shouldn't be happening with guests, you know, throughout the year, it should be seasonal, and that makes it more interesting. And so operating images and videos based on those seasonal activities are really important. Those are just a few things that I'd recommend.

Craig Macmillan 18:11

So it sounds like it would be a good idea to have as part of your regular staff meetings, having maybe folks who work in those areas, vineyard managers, or whoever coming in and just kind of touching base and making sure that people kind of know what's going on out there. I'd like to seasonality, I think that's important because it does also communicate the whole agriculture inland, and climate and season being important. Because a lot of folks don't understand kind of how that works. I think they think of wind kind of as a factory product, like, well, we'll just make some when there's so much more that has to happen. Before we get to that point. In the end. It's not a question simply of what are we doing, but also how are we doing it? That's the sustainability part of it. What do you see in the future? Yeah, what do you see coming down the line for wine companies in terms of what the landscape looks like around consumers and sustainability? I think people are getting more interested? Are they getting less interested? Are they looking for particular things? Are there particular qualities and products? You mentioned a number of things already, and you need when you look into your crystal ball? What do you what do you see the consumer doing in the future?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 19:10

Well, I think depending on your brand, and what assets that you see you have whether you are a tasting room, or a winery on land, or perhaps depending on who you are, and what and what your business plan is, I think sustainability needs to be woven into. Personally, I think it's a it's a really important part of how we as farmers are going to move forward in the industry and in the landscape. The current, you know, beverage landscape is that this is a real way for us to distinguish ourselves as advocates for the environment as advocates for social responsibility and for good business. And so I think that there needs to be a continued focus on sustainability and our efforts to help not only protect Mother Nature, but you know, protect and help grow our teams and our communities. Think that there's no have meant towards that from a retail perspective, from a media perspective and an experience perspective. Truthfully, I think that consumers are dying for authenticity, they're oftentimes really wanting to learn. And Mother Nature is so magical. So I think that anytime you can, that you can offer kind of a peek behind the curtain, whether that's what you're doing from a farming perspective, or how you're, you're uplifting your community or your employees, that you're always going to have people who are interested. And you can only say, why don't you buy my product or my product is Cabernet or Sauvignon Blanc or whatever, or this is my label so many times. I mean, you've got to encourage people with interesting content, that should be part of a healthy sales and marketing campaign. It's just a way to engage people in an authentic way that that helps lift farmers.

Craig Macmillan 20:57

What is one thing that you would tell folks in the industry regarding this topic, one, one piece of advice, or one insight that you would tell people?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 21:06

Well, I have two.

Craig Macmillan 21:07

Okay, I'll give you I'll let you have to.

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 21:09

Okay, thank you, I appreciate that. I would say don't forget how special you are, and how everyday practices of farming and caring for your community and team might distinguish you in the marketplace. So often people want to perhaps play follow the leader. But what makes you stand out is what makes you special, and that's usually individual. And then secondly, I would encourage people to remember, most consumers are not like you, most consumers don't come from a farming and agricultural production background. Make sure that when you're putting together your plan, when you're talking with your consumers, when you're crafting what your experience looks like that you realize that most people are not like you and that other things might be important to them, or more relevant and open to engaging in different ways that perhaps are not as intuitive because it might just be what sets you apart.

Craig Macmillan 22:06

Where can people find out more about you?

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 22:09

Wonderful, while full cup solutions.com would be a great place or on Instagram for cup solutions. Yeah, love to connect, if you'd like insight or thoughts or just to reach out and I'd be happy to hear.

Craig Macmillan 22:25

Fantastic. Well, that's all the time we've got for today. Amanda, I want to thank you this has been a really fun conversation for me and I hope for you.

Amanda Wittstrom Higgins 22:30

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Craig Macmillan 22:35

Again, Amanda Wickstrom Higgins principal of full cup Solutions has been our guest today.

Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

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While consumers name food and beverage as one of the most important industries when it comes to sustainability, more than 1 in 4 US adults said they don't know what makes a product sustainable (2022 Morning Consult, What Sustainability Means to Consumers). There is a need for consumer education on sustainability, and this is a great opportunity for your brand!

You can help educate your customers by sharing specific things that your brand does to be sustainable. Build a bond over your mutual care for the health of the people and the planet!

Sharing your practices is easy. Just reference the Sustainable Story worksheet!

The brand-new Sustainable Story worksheet is a simple yet powerful free tool that helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. Simply download the worksheet linked in the show notes, complete it with your whole team, and keep following along with this podcast series to learn how to incorporate your story into every aspect of your marketing and sales.

Plus, we are inspiring you by sharing what likeminded brands are doing to care for the people and the planet.

As a vineyard and winery on California's Central Coast, Shale Oak embraces Water Management as a top sustainability initiative. Here is just one of the things they do to help conserve water.

Water Management at Shale Oak One of California’s biggest sustainability concerns is water. In 2022, about 75% of California was declared to be in a severe drought.

Shale Oak addresses this critical resource concern by using their tasting room and winery roof to capture rainwater.

This water is stored in five 100k-gallon water cisterns atop their hill, and is used throughout the year to deficit irrigate their 5-acre vineyard and maintain landscaping during the drier months.

Deficit irrigation is a water management strategy that helps limit water usage by being very meticulous with watering schedules. Shale Oak relies on mother nature to supply the vast majority of the water used at their operation, and they are able to give the vines supplemental irrigation at critical stages during their life cycle.

Sustainability is a buzzword that gets thrown around a lot these days, but what does it really mean? Shale Oak believes that true sustainability is implementing farming practices that can be passed down for generations to come – practices that will keep their great-great-grandchildren in business, too!

Shale Oak helps to lessen the demand on California's water supply by reducing the amount of water they need to pump into their vineyard. Proudly telling their Sustainable Story surrounding Water Management practices helps their customers know that they are supporting a business that cares about protecting natural resources, and inspires their peers and future generations to follow suit!

Does Your Team Know Your Sustainable Story? Need an easy way to help your team talk about your sustainable practices?
Use the Our Sustainable Story worksheet!

Go through the worksheet as a team and you will walk away with 7 specific sustainable practices to talk about during tastings and sales calls, use in your marketing and wine club material, and so much more!

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story worksheet, read an example from Niner Wine Estates, to share the blog post about Shale Oak’s story, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Print * Sustainable Story Worksheet | Electronic Filling * What's your Sustainable Story? * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team * Water Management: Shale Oak

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The three pillars of regenerative farming are soil health, animal welfare, and social wellness. This podcast brings together interviews with two farmers who are exploring regenerative agriculture practices: Caine Thompson, Managing Director at Robert Hall Winery and Sustainability Lead at O’Neill Vintners and Distillers plus Clint Nelson, Director of Vineyard Operations and Grower Relations at Bonterra Organic Estates.

Caine and Clint explore the challenges and benefits of going nearly no-till from under vine weed cultivation to using rubber skids to reduce compaction to improve soil health. They also share the many benefits of our favorite living lawnmowers, sheep. Not only do these animals aid with weed management and fertilization, but they are also critical to fire suppression.

Listen in to hear both their experienced farmer's advice on how to bring more regenerative practices into your operation.

Resources: * REGISTER | Investigating Regenerative Practices in a Production Vineyard | June 16, 2023 * 92: Regenerative Agriculture * 107: How Grazing Sheep Can Benefit Your Vineyard * 114: Designing a Vineyard for Year-Round Sheep Grazing * 163: Onsite Compost Production Using Vineyard Waste * Bonterra * Bonterra Estate Cabernet Sauvignon 2021 * Bonterra Estate Chardonnay 2021 * Caine Thompson’s LinkedIn Profile * Caine Thompson interviews biodynamic consultant Philippe Armenier (26-minute YouTube video) * ROA Website * Sustainability Initiatives at O’Neill Vintners and Distillers

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Caine Thompson 0:00

Our guest today is Clint Nelson. He's director of vineyard operations and grower relations for Bonterra organic estates. And we're gonna talk about regenerative organic agriculture today, and the certificate, the rock, the ROC. Thanks for being on the show, Clint.

Clint Nelson 0:12

Hey, Greg, happy to be here. Looking forward to talking some organics with you.

Caine Thompson 0:16

Here with me today is Caine Thompson. He is managing director Robert Hall Winery and sustainability lead. With O'Neill, vintners and distillers. Welcome to the podcast. Caine.

Thank you. Great to be here.

Let's just start with some basics. What is regenerative organic agriculture?

Clint Nelson 0:33

Great question. I would say it's very similar to our traditional CCOF certificate or the organic certificate that we we now consider our stay. But the one of the biggest differences between going from traditional organics to regenerative organics is a few changes in animal welfare. So we're looking out for the animals that were hurding and grazing on our vineyards. And that's one of the pillars in the certificate. In addition to that, there's a social equity component, where we're looking at the well being of not just our internal employees and how they're treated and making sure that they have fair compensation for the work and also a nice work life balance, but also the region as a whole or the community as a whole, I should say and how our farming operations are impacting the area that we work with. That's really the additions to this certificate program compared to CCOF from a pillar aspect like something that's new, different. When you look at the farming side of this certificate program compared to traditional organic certificates, the biggest change or one of the most drastic changes depending on your farming techniques, is going from tillage to non till and looking at soil health, and doing infield soil tests to check the porosity or the drainage or the organic matter and things like that. And so that can be a challenge for a lot of traditional farmers that are used to tilling either every row or every other row for weed management or irrigation, conservation and their ideas. But for us, it's something that we've we've taken on and we're excited about what we're seeing anecdotally increases and things like organic matter and overall soil health. And also reduction in cover cropping. You know, once you go from tilling to non till your seed can start to reseed itself. And so you have less passes and your cover crop applications and, and all kinds of neat benefits that we're happy to take advantage of.

Craig Macmillan 0:35

So no till I talked to people all the time about this is a very important topic. And when I talk to the scientists, they're like, man, do not till your setting to set the system back to zero, you're feeding microbes that are there, and then they die because there's so much oxygen, etc, you're losing your carbon, because they're consuming it, all that kind of stuff. And so then I talked to growers that are, you know, believe in this. And then like, yeah, we're no till. And then we have a conversation. And I say, how do you handle things like squirrel burrows and gopher holes and things that are uneven because it's hard on the tractors and the drivers, and they say, Oh, we do it again, every five years, we'll till it again and replant every five years, or whenever we kind of need to do it. Now for you folks, it sounds like you're making a pretty intense commitment to the long term. When you think no till are you thinking like forever and a day or are there times when you might reset the system? And if so, how are you going to do it?

Clint Nelson 3:28

Yeah, I think for looking at this strictly from our certificate perspective, there are times when you're allowed to go back in and do quote unquote, maintenance of your soils. And for me, my biggest concern from transitioning from tilling to not is compaction, you know, compaction can start to limit your ability for water infiltration. And then your roots start to suffer and find declines sets in. We haven't seen that yet and my experience in management and directing the vineyard operations. I've rarely seen compaction be an issue. And so we're not doing maintenance tilling to alleviate compaction. One of the keys to that though, is we're transitioning a lot of our wheeled tractors, to rubber skids are rubber tracks, and so we're alleviating the pressure within the vineyard. And in addition to that, we just avoid all operations when the soils are moist or wet because you can get major running and things along those lines which then necessitate a grading pass just to make it smooth for tractor operations. Once again, if it's wet and rainy, we stay out of it. One added benefit. Craig, you might find of interest. This past season, we've had a lot of flooding up here in Mendocino with the rains, we had something almost like 30 inches within six week period and the rest of the river came up and over to some of the vineyard properties which is normal in a wet year. But being that we are non till we were actually able to get tractor operations back into the vineyards much earlier than anybody else that had been tilling prior to the rain events, because we had that soil integrity and also vegetative biomass there holding the soils together. And so we were out there pruning and flailing without creating any ruts or divots much earlier than anybody else around us.

Caine Thompson 5:19

So when I talked about no till many of them say, oh, yeah, this is a no till system. And then later on, they say, well, every 5, 6, 7, 8 years, we do go in and reset it, get it nice and clean and flat. And then we resed and we go from there, that our time horizon, that you would expect that you may actually go in and till again and reset the system. Either they're sustainable, or ROA system?

There could be. And there's a number of documented studies that have shown that the occasional use of tilling is required and the framework within ROA doesn't necessarily eliminate tillage it does at the Gold level. If you're like a Gold Certified regenerative farm, you've got to be 0 0 till there is the ability to till and divine row for weed control for certain practices in the ROA guidelines, you can still till there's different percentages of areas that you can till based on bronze, silver gold areas, when we do or need to teill, again, we wouldn't in the mid row, we wouldn't do every row would likely do every other row when we need it. So we'll use it as a as a selective tool, kind of like in sustainable conventional systems where there's a patch of weeds where you're not spraying the whole vineyard, but you've targeted application of herbicide to tackle a particular patch of weeds. Same with them the regenerative system and can see the use of selective tilling as a tool to control weeds in particular areas or an area of compaction that you need to work. And so the frameworks great in regards to working with growers for what is needed for their specific vineyards, while having a plan to minimize tillage in the long term.

As with a lot of things, you have a tool and may say, Well, I could reduce the use of this tool in a knowledgeable way. But it doesn't mean I'm gonna throw it away. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say never. And it's interesting that you still have it in the toolbox. That's interesting.

Overarching, with tillage, we would love to just not till it all intelligence, time consuming, it's expensive, makes difficult for gear equipment to go back on the Vinyard. When we get them, the winds and paths are you can see that erosion happening. When you till you're like putting a plow chisel through the vineyard of these ecosystems that's just kind of destroying what's what's there. So it's, we're not wanting to use it, we're wanting to build and regenerate soil that having it as a tool, if we need it at some point, it's beneficial.

What about inro weed control using a weed knife or flame or steam or something like that?

Clint Nelson 8:03

All the above. It really depends on the weed species. You know, we have some areas where I have Bermuda grass, it is almost impossible to tame. And sometimes it necessitates a hand pass, but when it's just your traditional mares tail or thistle or what have you, we like to run under vine cutivators. So to say that we're, we're not 100% non till because we're tilling underneath that find spaces for weed management. We're about say anywhere between 80 to 90% non till and we also like to till right under the vine because of a lot of our fertilizers have transitioned away from fertigation and we're actually banding pellets out there.

Caine Thompson 8:45

Oh really?

Clint Nelson 8:46

Yeah, yeah, it's been quite effective actually. And we're getting a cost effective boost in our nitrogen phosphorus and potassium compared to organic drip fertilizers which can be somewhat costly with very low horsepower behind them you know your NPK is pretty low on this organic injectable fertilizers. But when we can go after we banned on and this is a banding application after we ban on those pellets, we can incorporate them a little bit quicker by running our under vine so we get a two for one pass. We get weed management and also quicker incorporation of fertilizer pellets.

Caine Thompson 9:22

What about weed control? You mentioned on the swings abandoned herbicides in the sustainable area. How do you manage weeds in the ROA section?

In any type of conversion, whether it's to organics biodynamics regenerative farming, it seems to be we've controls one of the largest barriers to entry and how to do that in an economical way. And so, the main way we're controlling weeds under vine and the regenerative side is under vine cultivation just within the vine row. So just under vines, in the wintertime we have what's called like mounting up so we're turning this Soil just inside the vine row on top of uer vine row. And then that starts to break down through the season. And then we use a Clemens blade just with a little sensor arm to undercut the vines.

What's your stocking density like?

Clint Nelson 10:17

It's about 20, head of sheep per acre. And we keep them in a region or zone set of blocks for about a week. And then after that, we'll we'll move them on to another region of the vineyard. And they'll stay there for about a week. And so we do this rotation through all our vineyard blocks,

Caine Thompson 10:35

Five to seven days. Okay, well, that's good. So are you doing the shepherding in house?

Clint Nelson 10:40

Unfortunately, or fortunately, we don't have the bandwidth for that. And that I'll be the first to admit I'm not a experienced sheep herder. And so there's quite a lot of work that goes into it. We have a very close relationship with a sheep herder up here that we've been working with since the dawn of us bringing sheep and they get to take care of that for us.

Caine Thompson 10:59

And you're letting them go. But like December to March, something like that?

Clint Nelson 11:02

More like mid January to just before budbreak. So like the end of March. Yeah, your timeline is pretty close.

Caine Thompson 11:09

And again, obviously, there's no incorporation of any of this. So it's getting in there on its own, which it'd be nature to lay anyway. Right?

Clint Nelson 11:15

You'd be surprised about the incorporation aspect. Yeah, the sheep are really good about incorporating all the sheep. You'll see hoofprints throughout the entire vineyard.

Caine Thompson 11:23

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm glad you mentioned that, because that's where I was gonna. Yeah, see you next, are there any other animals in the system?

Clint Nelson 11:31

We actually internally have a couple cattle, just a few. And that's more for our biodynamic reparations. So we keep them around for the compost and manure horns. But they also graze, not so much in the vineyard. We keep them adjacent in the vineyards to help with fire suppression. So they keep the weeds down for us.

Craig Macmillan 11:49

Very, very cool.

Clint Nelson 11:50

And actually, as we transition into budbreak, and we start to move the sheep out, we start to put them in the wild lands around the vineyards as well, that will fire suppression.

Caine Thompson 11:58

Oh, okay. So how long total? Are they on the property?

Clint Nelson 12:02

About six months.

Caine Thompson 12:03

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, that's a long time.

Clint Nelson 12:05

Well, we we have quite a lot of acres that aren't vineyards here. So fire suppression is critical as the you know, California likes to burn. So we tried to do our part to keep it down.

Caine Thompson 12:15

Yeah, I know, a vineyard winery that everybody focuses on the fact that they have the sheep they talk about in the vineyard, and then the shepherd is part of the meeting. And he's like, Yeah, but this is probably the biggest benefit to us is the little fire suppression. They're doing that for the rest of the year. And I was like, gosh, that's really cool. That's really smart.

Clint Nelson 12:31

Exactly. I was gonna say taking this another higher level from a viewpoint. It can help with your insurance deductibles, too, if you can prove that you have sheep out there grazing and and removing the fire fuel pressures. Yeah.

Caine Thompson 12:45

You mentioned the welfare of the sheep, are there in particular things that you do, or the shepherds do that are focused on animal welfare?

Clint Nelson 12:54

Yeah, I think it comes down to auditing their practices and making sure that they're humanely treated and not overgrazed, like too many sheep in one area or anything like that. And they're, they're well fed and just taken care of properly, there's actually a whole list online of the things that we need.

Caine Thompson 13:11

Now let's transition over to animals, because animals is a big part of the ROA. And they're gaining popularity, but I'm curious about how you folks use animals for animals to use.

Yeah, so I'm originally from New Zealand. So I've a long history with sheep and using sheep within vineyards. And I just love them as a tool for incorporating into the vineyard system and they bring it just another level of energy into the property number one. Number two, they come in like these living lawnmowers that move with between your vines between your rows, they are consuming grass, that weeds, leaf falling off the vine, and they're consuming all of that and then you're gonna manures going back into the system, their hooves are also spreading their weight across across the ground as well. So there's a bit of aeration that the helping provide as well comparatively to large tractors that are giving us the compaction in the mid row as well. Really, that nutrient recycling is really valuable and the weed control it's a great way to you talked about it earlier, resetting weed control at the tail end of the season, bringing the sheep in to really chew down all of the weeds and grass within the system to back to like a base level at the start of the next season. It makes it easier to go in and start your under vine tillage program. So we're using sheep early season, our fruiting wire within the vineyard with a trial setup is set pretty, pretty high. And so the sheep can easily walk underneath the vine rows. And that allows us even even maneuverability of them through the vineyard. And so we find we get good control of weeds with them. It also allows us to extend the use of sheep within the vineyard and both ends of the season because the fruiting wire is way above the heads. So there's no risk of chewing off little young shoots in the early spring.

Craig Macmillan 15:16

So this is post budbreak?

Caine Thompson 15:18

Yeah, so we're putting them in post pruning through to post budbreak, we have noticed that if you leave them too long, and there's not enough grass, they will start trying to climb up the canopy in into the veins. And so there is a limit to how long you can leave them. And then you've got to ensure that there's not too many animals per acre grazing, otherwise, you're going to strip out the food system, and then they're going to be forced to go up into the canopy, which you don't want.

Craig Macmillan 15:50

And you said, there's two times the second one in the fall like after harvest?

Caine Thompson 15:54

Yeah, as soon as the fruits of the sheep come back in, and we really like that as a way of again, cleaning up the understory, then all these leaves from the canopy falling down into the vineayrd floor. And so the sheep are consuming them turning them into nutrients and and putting it back into the soil versus that leaf just usually blowing away somewhere else. Yeah, just running down eventually, by by itself, that's just a faster way of getting nutrient recycling happening and back into the soil. So they're a great tool, there's a local shepherd that we're using that brings in sheep for us, we haven't got our own herd at the moment.

Craig Macmillan 16:35

Is there one piece of advice that are one thing you would tell growers on this topic that you really encourage them to do or encourage them to think about?

Clint Nelson 16:43

I would say when it comes to regenerative organic farming, don't be scared of going non till it's not the boogeyman in the closet by any means. I've been doing it successfully for over six years hands on direct management, and haven't had any issues. And in fact, we're seeing great benefits and duction, one of our blocks this past year had a record setting crop being on non-till system. And then in addition to that, we're seeing these jumps in organic matter and, and the ability to get in in farm earlier than other people. I would say there's a reason where we made this jump. We're excited about it. And I hope that I can kind of spread the word for everybody out there and get more people are excited about.

Craig Macmillan 17:25

Is there one thing that you would tell grower related to this topic that might help them what message do you want to have somebody take away?

Caine Thompson 17:33

I would say just make a start on even if it's a few rows and remove herbicides, number one, and look at alternatives for your agrichemical program. Sulfur has been used for powdery mildew control for hundreds of years, it's very, very effective. And look at the tools that can replace slowly some of the products that you might not want to use around your farm and around your household data, more organic solutions and get your learnings yourself. You don't need to do your whole vineyard right out of the gate. But just start small and get the learnings and if there's a desire you, you learn pretty quick and then expand from that.

Craig Macmillan 18:17

That is a great message and one that I encourage everybody to hear. Try things out. You don't have to put everything on 17 Black, try a little bit, see how it goes. And that's a great way to control cause and the other thing is site specific. Right? That's always the thing. Well, it's all site specific. Well, yeah, it is all site specific. And therefore you need to try it on your site.

Caine Thompson 18:37

Yeah, we started trailers of 48 acre trail. And after year, two, now, we've expanded into 130 acres, but we got the learnings over a two year period to give us the confidence to expand into the rest of the estate.

Clint Nelson 18:53

One more thing I used to work in in research and outreach. And this was back in time when I help with best practices on irrigation techniques, or best practices in pruning management, things like that. And when talking with growers, I would just say ask yourself, you know why? Why why are we tilling? Or why are we doing XYZ farming practice? Is it because our predecessors or grandfathers and fathers were doing it? Or is it because there's a scientific base reason? And I think once you start to ask the why you can start to uncover a lot of information about your farming operations internally, increase efficiencies and have better deliverables just by asking why.

Nearly Perfect Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Your website is the hub for your brand’s core information: location, history, shop, and more. It’s where people come to learn more about what you have to offer and why they should support your business.

By highlighting your dedication to sustainability you create a deeper connection with your website visitors. When your visitors read about the conscious care that goes into producing your wines, they can feel good about supporting a system of winemaking that helps protect the people and the planet.

Here are two easy places to share your Sustainable Story on your website.

Dedicate a Page to Sustainability Put your commitment to sustainability front and center by dedicating an entire page to your certification!

Here are three great examples of how brands have included sustainably no their website.

1) WaterFire has added SIP Certified right to their main navigation on their home page. This page exhibits a colorful infographic, and tells visitors what their certification means.

2) Cambria looks at sustainability not as a checklist, but as a way of being. Their Keeping it Real – 100% Certified Sustainable page offers six specific sustainable metrics so visitors know what sustainability really looks like.

3) Laetitia Vineyard & Winery goes a step further by embedding a video on their Sustainability page. During his 2-minute narration, Eric Hickey, Senior Winemaker and General Manager, tells visitors a quick story about the history of the vineyard, and gives a few examples of sustainable practices that are used today.

Blog Posts 1) Ancient Peaks has created an easy to find category for all things Sustainability on their extensive blog page. Complete with a downloadable Sustainability in Practice at Ancient Peaks Winery sheet, this post gives a sampling of six sustainability initiatives that embody their love for the land.

2) Just Enough Wines recently made a blog post highlighting how they source grapes grown through Sustainable Winegrowing Practices. When readers see Just Enough Wines on the shelf, they’ll remember that sustainability is one of their core values.

3) Hope Family Wines uses their blog to help educate visitors on what sustainability means. A read through their blog post, Sustainable Wine vs Organic Wine, explains how both programs support a system of winegrowing that helps the planet.

They're coming! Sustainable Stories from SIP Certified Members Ready for some Sustainable Stories from SIP Certified members? In the next Marketing Tip, learn what Shale Oak Winery does to address one of California’s biggest sustainability concerns through their responsible Water Management practices.

Use the Sustainable Story worksheet to help you identify the ways your brand embodies the 7 sustainable values:

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes to download and complete your own Sustainable Story worksheet, an example from Niner Wine Estates, to share the blog post about Vina Robles’ story, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet * Sustainable Story Worksheet for Print * Sustainable Story Worksheet for Electronic Filling * What's your Sustainable Story? * SIP Certified * Social Responsibility: Vina Robles * Vineyard Team

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The health of a grapevine starts at ground level – literally in the soil. The California Department of Food and Agriculture is helping farmers improve the quality of their soils through the Healthy Soils Initiative. Taylor Jones, Ph.D., Director of Viticulture at Star Lane and Dierberg Vineyards used his funding as an opportunity to study the effects of compost. After completing two three-year trials in six different soil types in two American Viticulture Areas, Taylor found that compost additions significantly increased organic matter, Reduced Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potassium usage by 35 percent, and decreased water use dramatically.

Listen in to hear the only downside to increasing the use of compost on your vineyard.

References: * 149: Fair Market Trade: Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi and Grapevines * 151: The Role of the Soil Microbiome in Soil Health * 163: Onsite Compost Production Using Vineyard Waste * 165: Become a Microbe Farmer: Make Compost * 167: Use Biochar to Combat Climate Change * California Department of Food and Agriculture’s Healthy Soils Initiative * Compost Benefits and Quality for Viticultural Soils * Compost use in premium vineyard development * Dierberg Vineyard * Taylor Jones LinkedIn * Tyler Jones: taylor@dierbergvineyard.com

Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - DONATE * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Here with me today is Taylor Jones. He's Director of Viticulture at Star Lane in Dierberg Vineyards. And we're gonna talk about some soil health projects that he's got going. Thanks for being on the podcast.

Taylor Jones 0:10

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:12

I just learned about this recently, and you talked about a little bit in the vineyard team tailgate meeting that got me interested, you have more than one thing going on? Is that right? Yeah, yeah, we do. And these projects are funded by the California Department of Food and Agriculture Healthy Soils program. Is that right?

Taylor Jones 0:25

Yes, that's correct.

Craig Macmillan 0:27

We'd love to chat about that part of it a little bit later. But right now, I really want to know what you're doing. How many projects, what are they about? What are you trying to find out?

Taylor Jones 0:33

We have two projects, we were awarded two different grants, one for each of our vineyard properties that we have. So we have one healthy soils project over in Santa Rita Hills that started in 2018. And it's a three year program. And then we have another project that's healthy soils program at our Star Lane Vineyard in Happy Canyon, AVA and over their three year project also. And that one started in 2020, I believe. So we just hit our final year, this this last year. So yeah, to two different projects. And essentially, we're the states paying us to put compost down and improve our soil health. So we're jumping on that and trying to see what actually happens in the vineyard after compost has been applied. Since we're getting all of this compost from CDFA. It's we're going to use the money that we're saving on the compost to kind of do some some studies and see what's actually being impacted in our vineyard soils.

Craig Macmillan 1:30

So talking about the Star Rita AVA, project.

Taylor Jones 1:33

Over at Santa Rita hills, we have Drum Canyon vineyard, and over there we were awarded, it was 35 acres of compost applications, we had six tons per acre. For three years, over the three year span, we had 18 tons per acre put down down over there what we did, we tried to, as best we could make an experiment, you know, it's kind of hard to make a proper randomized trial. In a field when you're doing compost applications with your normal operations, we try to apply compost in all the areas that we could in our vineyard and while leaving a few barrier rows that we could do tests. And so we had, for example, we'd have 10 rows applied with compost, and then a few rows, no compost so that we could test those rows separately see what's going on. Are there changes in organic matter? Are we seeing changes in compaction, all the good stuff that comes with soil, so testing soils for nutrition, microbial populations, and then also water, I think water is the big thing. So that's how we set everything up on the property, we have five or six different soil types that we apply conference to and in each soil type, we did our own measurements there. And we were able to have soil moisture probes in most areas so that we could utilize those to help with some data. We really saw a lot of benefits from putting the compost down. I mean, we're in you're entering our sixth year after application, the state's requiring us to send a final numbers and we have to do one more test of organic matter. So that's coming up soon for our final dataset. Overall, we saw some great really good impacts from from the healthy soil program at that site.

Craig Macmillan 3:11

Before we go farther, are we talking about banding under the vine we're talking about broadcasting?

Taylor Jones 3:14

Whenever you do your grant, you have to specify what you're going to do. And in our case, we went with banding the spreader that we have is a bander you know we'd have six foot rows and we have a ag soil works hydraulic gripper, the wings move. So we're in an area where we have a lot of compaction. Typically we like to rip every three years every other row. And so that kind of led to the decision of banding. We're getting the compost close to the vine. Since we're in a six foot row, our rippers going right down the vine row right next to the root zone. So we're trying to get everything incorporated and move down lower in the soil profile. That was our target what we did we since we had three different years, and we didn't want to rip every single year, we did well alternating rows. One year we did every other row with a compost band and rip. The following year we did the even numbered rows with the compost band and rip and then the final year, our desire was to go no till so at the final year, we banded and we just did a light disk and seed on top of that, that we didn't unnecessarily rip over again. So it was technically a combo of riping and broadcast.

Craig Macmillan 4:22

Unrelated just further conversation that I've had weed control under the vine using some kind of cold federal weed knife or using herbicides?

Taylor Jones 4:31

For the extent of this trial. We use it herbicides, trying to keep all the weeds down as much as possible so that we're not seeing any funky results coming from having weeds all over the place. So we try to keep the berms clean as possible.

Craig Macmillan 4:42

And this one has been going for a little while now. What kind of preliminary results do you think you're seeing?

Taylor Jones 4:47

We're seeing some some great preliminary results. The most impactful result that we're seeing is water. Our water usage has declined dramatically. I mean, we went from irrigating every two weeks historically, this will be my eighth vintage here at the company, we used to always pretty religiously we'd water every two weeks, if not more over on that property. And every year, we were kind of able to spread that out, we were seeing water holding capacity almost increase. So last year, we ended up waiting 79 days from basically from bloom until we harvested, we were able to not water at all. Pretty amazing, we were able to heat stress, we have totally sensors in the field that help us tailor our irrigation strategies, but that 79 days of no water being used was significant for our operation in terms of water savings, you know, propane costs, even the irrigator had more time to do other things besides troubleshoot the irrigation system. I think all of that kind of stemmed from the organic matter increase. We saw, on average over a three year timespan, the average was about point 2% increase in organic matter per year for those three years. And you know, 1% organic matter is more or less 20,000 gallons of water per acre that you can hold. That's our goal. Let's try to increase organic matter by 1% and try to achieve that extra water holding capacity. Let's see how high we can get and so we had different different soil types reacted differently in terms of how well they held water.

What kind of soils do you have out there? We're talking about the Santa Ynez River Valley, we're talking about being relatively close to Lompoc, for those of you who are interested, there is tremendous will type variability all through that area. And Drum Canyon is relatively on the west side of that area. I would describe it as that what kind of sils do you have out there?

So we have top of the hill pure sandbox, as you go down the hill, we have some nice Shaylee loans. As we continue down, we get more and more loamy but a little bit more clay and silt as you kind of go to the flats. We're getting a lot more water holding capacity there in the flat zone. And then we have another corner of the vineyard that is the lowest coldest spot and that's mostly sand like a kind of like a sandy clay. So huge variability in soils, we kind of have almost all the types on our property, which is well fun for me.

Craig Macmillan 7:12

Fun for you. Tremendous variation in water holding capacity.

Taylor Jones 7:15

Oh yeah, we had a block we tried to establish our sandy soils, and that was watering twice a week with four gallons per vine, like just trying to get those vines. I mean, it's windy there, we have a lot of struggles and sand is sands an issue trying to get vines established. And to get that taproot down, otherwise, our loams on the hillsides, they tend to have good drainage, they're maybe two feet deep before you hit a layer of sandstone. So our soils are fairly shallow. So we get good water infiltration and penetration, good ability to stress the vines out quickly, but not really holding water. Well, as you get to the flood zone, we've always been able to irrigate a little bit less often those soils kind of have more of clay particles, they're holding on to water a little bit more, until you hit the sandy zone and there are definitely watering twice as much as we do in other areas.

Craig Macmillan 8:02

But you're seeing improvement in all these areas?

Taylor Jones 8:05

Definitely every single area of all in line with each other and what what we're seeing in in our sandy soil series, we saw the higher increase in organic matter than the other soil series. And we were able to irrigate slightly less in those zones than the other ones, which then in previous years percentage wise, which was surprising, but also I'm so glad water is the same you know, in our sandy soils, we saw almost it was point eight 5% organic matter increase total over a final timespan. So that's the equivalent of 16,600 gallons per acre that of water that was used, On the lower end some of the, our loamy silty soils, we ended up getting about a point seven 2.45% increase over five years. So a little bit different there. But you know, we didn't need as much help with holding water in those soils of the sandy soils. So it kind of balanced out percentage wise in terms of how much water we were using.

Craig Macmillan 9:06

What about above ground? Did you see changes in the vines, the fruit crop load, wine quality?

Taylor Jones 9:11

Not so much crop load tons tons per acre, we're pretty spot on throughout the vineyard with seasonal variability. For better or for worse. Some areas we had too much vigor, some areas are vigor was improved overall vigor was higher than than previous years, even with reduced water and reduced and reduced fertilizer inputs as well. So yeah, above ground pruning weights increased a little bit. But that was that was kind of expected. We're having a lot more vigor. But yeah, fruit load was not impacted, which is fine. We're not like trying to pump out as much fruit as possible.

Craig Macmillan 9:43

We've made wines out of these?

Taylor Jones 9:45

Yes. So why is not really a lot of changes in wine. Our winemaking team. They make a couple different wines. A lot of its blended from different areas of our flat zones. And in our other ranch we saw some Yans increasing Other than Yans, that's about it in terms of wine quality was still on point with with every previous year, so no changes in wine quality and no changes in Brix or pH, anything like that phenologically ripening, everything seemed to be pretty, pretty standard for our ranch.

Craig Macmillan 10:18

And that's a good transition. So what about the Happy Canyon?

Taylor Jones 10:21

We're just getting some, I'm finally organizing some data for Happy Canyon. And they're we're seeing similar results. And if anything this year more so or we have had some pretty significant rains. But our cover crop took off a lot quicker than any previous year, this last November, November, December is when we put our final load of compost in from healthy soils. So we were in year three, and we're finally seeing cover crops just taking off. Unfortunately, I think the only downside of these projects has been a lot of increase in in inter row weeds, we've had a lot more weeds creeping up. And that's just I think, some of the compost we're getting this now the seed beds in there just stuck there. And you can see the Malvo just coming up right where we planted and ripped, which is frustrating, but I'll take the soil benefits and deal with the weeds later, you know. Happy Canyon, we're seeing very similar results, we're starting to be able to use less water on a per annual basis, we have a little bit less soil diversity over at Happy Canyon a lot more silty clay silty on the hillsides, clays towards the bottom and the flats. That grant there was 95 acres of compost and give that reference over over a three year timespan that ends up being it was 58 $59,000 worth of compost that we got to not to have from the state which which was phenomenal. And then at the Star Lane project, we're only doing four times an acre, not six tons an acre, the grants kind of based off of what compost you're buying and your carbon nitrogen ratio of your compost, so four tons an acre and Happy Canyon still with the goal of trying to go no till over there. And we're seeing similar increases in organic matter where we're getting that point 2.25% increase year after a year. So there were targeting hopefully, my goal is to find one block, maybe that we can get a full 1% increase in that would be amazing. But it's good to see similarity over two different ADAs two different ranches. It's nice to see the similarities kind of confirming what we're seeing at one ranch versus the other ranch.

Craig Macmillan 12:24

And I want to come back to that. But before I forget, again, we're talking about this is four tons per acre banded, you are not tilling the middle right now.

Taylor Jones 12:32

Correct.

Craig Macmillan 12:33

But you are tilling with that piece of equipment over at the Santa Rita ranch when you have to occasionally yes in terms of no tilled you for see Star Lane being able to farm with a no till system indefinitely? Or do you have plans that you'll have to reset the system every so often? And if so, how would you go about it?

Taylor Jones 12:53

That's that's a good question. I think that I would love to go no tilling indefinitely, unfortunately, with the rate of compaction all of our soils have and then the heavy equipment we're using it's it's inevitable that we're going to have to rip and till but I don't think that we'll ever have to do like every single year full plowed down kind of stuff. I'm totally fine with instead of ripping every three years, let's double that to rip every six years or even further down the road, see how far we can push it. I think with our compaction results that we're seeing in both ranches, our rate of compaction has reduced by about 80% We should be able to go for about five and a half years without ripping instead of every three years. So we can probably push that to six years and rip and then you know, maybe future copost applications will help reduce that even more. We're doing some no till trials where we planted a vineyard and started it no till and comparing it to the same block that's being tilled annually every year. And so far, we're five or six years in now and seeing no differences in yield or plant growth which is promising because I think that for our soil future we kind of need to go the the no till route and you know show that it can be done. And let's see what happens.

Craig Macmillan 14:06

Something that we didn't touch on that. I think if our listeners are not familiar, this is in Santa Barbara County, Santa Yenz Valley. Happy Canyon and the Star Rita AVAs are about as different as you could possibly get in my opinion. So fill us in a little bit about what's going on soil and climate between those two branches.

Taylor Jones 14:24

Both are similar in terms of frost. I mean we had we always have the same amount of frost days I feel like but yeah, so So Santa Rita hills a lot closer to the ocean. You've got the Santa Ynez mountain range, they're going east to west kind of funneling in all the morning fog so we get Santa Rita Hills morning fog usually burning out towards the end of the day, high winds and that that kind of leads to some nice distressed plants are really big fluxes in temperatures with daytime highs versus nighttime colds very similar toHappy Canyon Aava like stuff over there, we get a lot warmer during the day, we're seeing a lot more 90 degree plus days than what we would see in Santa Rita Hills. And with with the way the climates moving, both ranches seem to be trending towards more and more and more high heat days. And we're seeing more cold days as well. And out at Happy Canyon, we're kind of on the far edge of Happy Canyon where Star Lane is and we have morning fog kind of creeps in and it will kind of tickle the edge of our ranch almost kind of recedes a lot more back into Santa Ynez. So at Star Lane, we get a lot more a lot less foggy mornings, kind of ocean mist, and we have a lot more beautiful sunny mornings out. But over there, we also have a lot of wind as well, the significant amount of wind. So AVA wise, they are, you know, they're fairly, fairly similar, I would say only because you have some of that marine influence. High winds with soil types are completely different. And just like the amount of the day that you're getting sunlight in different areas, and wind is fairly different as well.

Craig Macmillan 16:05

Tell me a little bit about the Healthy Soils program. I think this is a really fascinating thing. I remember when it started, and how did you find out about it? How did you get led to it? What was the process like for getting into it?

Taylor Jones 16:17

Trying to think I found it, I really liked looking for grant money, I came from an academic background. And if there's free money to be had, why not apply for it, we use all the tractor replacement grants, we're trying to get electrification grants, you know, find money where we can find it to help our help our company out. Pretty sure we just stumbled upon this program being available. And we basically talked to CDFA. And we're like, Hey, we're interested in applying and said, Here's the process. And it ended up being kind of ridiculously easy. I'm surprised that more people don't apply for Healthy Soils programs, there's just an an online application that you fill out, not only while you're filling out this application, they make you use the Comet Planner tool online, which is a really fun tool, if nobody's used it before, just to estimate greenhouse gas emission reductions based on you know, that's, that's kind of the core of the program is reducing greenhouse gas emissions and increasing organic matter in your soils. And comet planner can kind of help you look at that. So there's some criteria you have to meet, you cannot have applied compost on these fields within I forget what it was in the last five years or something like that. If you've been applying compost, you can't get the Healthy Soils program. So we used some areas, we had put compost down so we couldn't use those zones, which is why in our Drum Canyon Ranch is 69 acres, but we could only put compost down on 35 of that. So that's one One limitation of the program. But overall, you pick your blocks that you want to do you set out a sampling protocol for them. And they'll usually accept it. And it's essentially you sample your soils every year during the program prior to compost application. And they'll reimburse you for those soil samples as well. So that you can track your organic matter. That's that's all they require. We submit our soils for more testing than just organic matter. Yeah, overall, it's a really simple end of the year, you have to send them proof of your project. And that's generally photos of the compost arriving pictures of the team implementing the compost, actually putting it into the ground, receipts, invoices that you had for just everything to prove that you've done what you do. And then yeah, it's three years. And then in year five, you have one last soil sample to send to the state. So overall, it's a simple application process. I found it one of the easier grants to actually apply for.

Craig Macmillan 18:38

You mentioned that you were doing soil analysis beyond just the soil organic matter what what variables are you looking at?

Taylor Jones 18:44

We just submitted for a full a full soil health panel looking back on it, I wish I would have added bulk density on that, because I think that would have been interesting to see how it changed. But you know, hindsight is 2020 but we looked at you know, NPK, calcium, magnesium cation exchange capacity. Any differences in pH, soil moisture, sodium, just kind of the whatever you send to us soil lab, whatever they'll give you for those tests. I think the biggest thing was we reduced our NPK usage by about 35%. At both ranches after this soil results showed you know we had some NPK increases, but not really as much. I think what we're seeing more so is our vines, roots, finding new areas where they haven't been before. And they're kind of being able to utilize resources that previously weren't available to them. So that's leading to our decrease in fertilizer usage, which is great. We're trying to go towards organic and getting away from a lot of inorganic fertilizer usages would be spectacular.

Craig Macmillan 19:47

That reminds me of something so have you been applying either synthetic organic NPK formulations on top of the compost as the compost been it for the fertility program?

Taylor Jones 19:56

We still do add a little bit, a little bit of NPK but more so calcium, we will have more calcium applications. Especially out in Happy Canyon, we have really high serpentine soils and really bad magnesium problems. So we're always trying to add in gypsum and calcium whenever we can. The Drum Canyon Ranch, not too much of a problem over there we have a problem with potassium uptake. Um, so we do increase our potassium usage they're coming into this year, I think we're really going to reduce based on what we saw last year in terms of vigor and vine health. I mean, our nitrogen applications are going to be really low. Phosphorus, we're always pretty fine on we don't need to use much will probably continue with potassium, but we'll see what petioles looked like this year.

Craig Macmillan 20:40

Well, we're running out of time. Is there one thing that you would tell a grower one piece of advice you'd give to a grower regarding what you've learned from this project?

Taylor Jones 20:49

I mean, the advice is use compost, I think we're we're seeing root zones reaching areas they haven't before where we're using significantly less water, which is just key to farming in California and really in the world going forward. You know, you're you're increasing your CEC or your cation exchange capacity so less nutrients down I mean, you're getting compost is kind of like a win win scenario. The only downside is weeds. Our soils are seem to be returned to normal. We had earthworms returned for the first time since I've been at this ranch. Five different soil pits we found earthworms in which they've never been in before. They're kind of creeping in from the edges, which is awesome. I think we're gonna maybe transition to worm farming.

Craig Macmillan 21:33

(laughs). Where can people find out more about you and what you do?

Speaker 2 21:39

you could always find out. Dierberg and Star Lane Vineyards, we have Dierbergvineyard.com. Starlanevineyard.com. Otherwise, I kind of just bounced around the Santa Barbara County. I think it always...

Craig Macmillan 21:50

Just like if you're looking if you're looking for him. Just go to Santa Barbara County and drive around a little bit. Yeah. Probably near a vineyard.

Taylor Jones 21:58

Yeah, exactly.

Craig Macmillan 22:00

He has a lot of friends.

Taylor Jones 22:02

But no, yeah, you know, I'm happy if people want to reach out to me. You know, my emails, Taylor taylor@Dierbervineyard.com. Yeah, happy to help people out with applying for grants or if they want to chat or look at some data. I'm always down to see what other people are seeing and compare what we're seeing in our AVA versus another AVA or different grower strategies for compost applications. You know, I think information sharing is the way to go.

Craig Macmillan 22:28

Yeah, totally. Fantastic. Well, Taylor, I just am so happy you could be on the on the podcast, this has really been fun for me.

Taylor Jones 22:35

Thanks for having me.

Craig Macmillan 22:36

This is a topic. It's obviously a hot topic, continuing topic. And I think that the longer that we as an industry have been doing this, because this isn't something that people were doing in the 70s for instance, you know, is this you know, we've all had to learn we've had a compost is not just compost, you need look, the analyses and this rate is not the same as that rate and on the soil does that and the fact that you guys are doing that work along with everybody else and that you're sharing information. I think it's really fantastic. So, thank you so much for your contribution.

Taylor Jones 23:03

Yeah. Thank you.

Craig Macmillan 23:04

So our guest has been Taylor Jones. He is director of viticulture at Star Lane and Dierberg Vineyards in Santa Barbara County.

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While telling your sustainable story serves a practical purpose in educating consumers about the real-world impact of your sustainable practices, it also goes deeper than that: it builds meaningful emotional connections.

Today we share why messaging around social equity is important to your customers and you’ll hear how Vina Robles embodies social responsibility.

About 70% of the decisions we make are based on emotional factors (Gallup 2022). Build emotional connections over shared values with your customers by telling your sustainable story. When you do this, you are reminding your customers that at the same time that they are appreciating a great glass of wine, they are also supporting a system of winemaking that cares for the people and the planet.

Social Responsibility at Vina Robles Did you know that planting a tree can be as easy as enjoying a bottle of wine? It can be when you buy a bottle of Vina Robles’ the Arborist!

In their partnership with One Tree Planted and the Arbor Day Foundation, Vina Robles dedicates a portion of the proceeds from every bottle of the Arborist that is sold to plant trees.

Since the program began in the year 2000, nearly 33,000 trees have been planted thanks to these organizations and every person who purchases a bottle of the Arborist.

This partnership is a natural extension of the winery's passion for trees and sustainable viticulture.

The oak tree depicted on the bottle of this red blend represents the Legacy Oak – a 300+-year-old oak tree rooted on the estate Jardine Vineyard.

The wine is dedicated to Vina Robles’ founder, Hans Nef, and named for the arborist who saved the tree from its declining health in 2014.

This initiative is a tremendous display of Social Responsibility by Vina Robles. Giving back to the community and environment that they call home is just one of the ways they embody the 7 SIP Certified Values.

Tell Your Sustainable Story Many people know that there is a higher value in products that are made sustainably, but they don't really know what sustainability means in day-to-day operations. That's why we encourage you to identify specific sustainable practices that your brand uses and create a narrative that is easy to share and incorporate into daily conversations.

Use the Sustainable Story worksheet to help you identify the ways your brand embodies the 7 sustainable values:

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Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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One way that growers can farm sustainably for the future is through vineyard fleet management. Marc Di Pietra, Regional Service Maintenance Manager for Treasury Americas, a subsidiary of global wine company Treasury Wine Estates, is doing just that by exploring alternative fuel sources and automation. Electric and hybrid vehicles reduce carbon emissions and lower the cost of fuel. The use of remote-operated equipment improves safety for operators, upscales the workforce, improves efficiencies, and has the potential to passively gather valuable data. The challenge is the existing infrastructure needed to support these tools. Learn what equipment Marc and his team are trialing as they work towards a goal to use 100% renewable energy.

References: * May 12, 2023 Integrating Mechanization Tailgate Meeting - REGISTER * 77: Vineyard Pruning Technology * 173: Reduce Your Carbon Footprint with Lightweight Wine Bottles * Agtonomy * Guss * Monarch Tractor * Polaris * Robotics Plus * Marc Di Pietra email * Marc Di Pietra LinkedIn * Stavros Vougioukas, Ph.D, Professor and Department Vice Chair, Biological and Agricultural Engineering, UC Davis * Treasury Wines Estates * Treasury Wine Estates 2022 Sustainability Report * Treasury Wine Estates on LinkedIn

Vineyard Team Programs: * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - DONATE * SIP Certified – Join to protect natural and human resource with us * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00 And our guest today is Marc Di Pietra. He's Regional Service Maintenance Manager for Treasury America's part of Treasury Wine Estates. And thanks for being on the podcast.

Marc Di Pietra 0:09

Thank you, Craig, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you today, especially about some of the things we're working on. We're really excited, quick background on me. I joined Treasury wWine Estates in mid 2018, then transitioned into vineyard operations around 2019. And then since then, I've been focused on our equipment, sleep management in the vineyard with an eye on what farming of the future looks like.

Craig Macmillan 0:28

Farming of the future. That's a really interesting topic and a really big question, what that is going to look like, what kinds of things are you doing? What kinds of things do you do as part of this position as part of this project?

Marc Di Pietra 0:40

It's a great question, because every day it changes, right. But two of the biggest areas of opportunities that we see, we see alternative fuel types, fully electric, hybrid hydrogen or alternative fuel sources, and then also automation or remote operated mechanization. And so for alternative fuels, two of the major points here are obviously the rising cost of fuel, and then also how to lower our carbon emissions. So Treasury as a whole and supportive lowering emissions, we've been implemented two key goals in our journey. And that starts with a target of 100% renewable energy by 2024. That's the first step. And then the second step of that is net zero for scopes, one and two by 2030. So pretty big, lofty goals there. But that's why we're starting that path now.

Craig Macmillan 1:24

So Marc, can you kind of explain what scope one and scope two are in the world of carbon accounting?

Marc Di Pietra 1:30

Yeah, sure. So scope. One, emissions are direct greenhouse gas emissions that occur from sources controlled or owned by an organization. So an example like fuel combustion, boiler, furnace vehicles, things like that. Scope, two emissions, or indirect greenhouse gas emissions through the purchase of electricity, Steam, heat, or cooling. And then lastly, scope three, which is much bigger than that as activities from assets not owned or controlled by the organization, but indirectly affected value, like shipping supply chain, gas bottles, things like that.

Craig Macmillan 2:00

Yeah. And there's a lot of folks that are getting interested in that part of my job with Niner Wine Estates is who I work for. We're trying to figure out what's the carbon footprint of the glass we use, and many other people are looking at that same thing. Because when you stop and think about it, you go, Hey, wait a second, this came from France. And it weighs X, huh. You know, and so it's that kind of scope three stuff is really interesting to a lot of people.

Marc Di Pietra 2:23

Treasury on the background has done a lot of work on that to understand that big picture.

Craig Macmillan 2:26

And we have an episode that mentions that.

Marc Di Pietra 2:28

And the second big piece, which I hadn't hinted on was automation, also a key initiative because it allows us to help improve like our operator safety, upscale our existing workforce while improving efficiencies in the field. There's also an added bonus, that with this type of technology, we'll have the ability to gather passive data, which right now, it's still relatively new. But as we continue to grow and develop, we can process that data to make smarter decisions, you would ask some of the things that we're working on. So here in the US, we're working with GUSS remote operated spray systems, we've got Agtonomy, which is electric and remotely operated alternative to the tractor that you're familiar with. We've got two atari and Polaris electric, RTVs, Robotics Plus systems, which is both hybrid and remote operating. And we're also currently waiting for order of Monarch tractors that should be here in the next couple of weeks. Our international teams, they're also using some different equipment as well, such as vide bots or farm, Kelby, the yields and a few others.

Craig Macmillan 3:25

Talk to me about these alternate fuel things. I think this is a really interesting idea. And I haven't really followed it, tell someone who's never heard of this kind of thing, how this works?

Marc Di Pietra 3:35

Well, the easiest way to think about as you're driving up and down the road, and you see a gas station, and you see those three different price points, for 87 89, and 91. And that's all pretty basic, but then you add in the cost of diesel on top of that there are other ways to fuel equipment as well. So we have a fully electric like you're familiar with your Tesla's or your Chevy bolts, but there's also hybrid, which you're familiar with to it has been doing this for a long time. And then there's also other types of fuel, like methane and hydrogen that are out there as well. The real big challenge that we're seeing, at least on our end, is the infrastructure to support all of these different growing ideas. That's why we're currently trying both electric and the hybrid options.

Craig Macmillan 4:14

Do you think that there is a future for things like methane, hydrogen, those ideas have kind of come and gone? And I think a lot of it, like you said, is the infrastructure part?

Marc Di Pietra 4:21

You know, it's a great question, because I don't have all the answers. But I do know that different companies are trying things to capture, especially in farming, so where you have dairy farms that can collect the methane, you've got the fermentation process, which allows you to capture different chemicals across the way. So I think there is a place for it depending on where you're at. And then again, it goes back to how you can capture and store that safely.

Craig Macmillan 4:45

So let's go back to electric and hybrid. You mentioned a whole range of different vehicles that could run on electric and hybrid. Can you tell me a little bit about is it a hybrid tractors or strictly electric tractors? These are the things that need more house horsepower, and they're a little bit big You're What's that landscape looking like right now? That's very exciting for a lot of us.

Marc Di Pietra 5:04

Yeah. And it's a great question because again, that's those are all the things that we're asking ourselves. The reason we're so spread out is because we're in the early adoption phase, and Treasury has allowed us to be that. So we're trying different pieces of the puzzle to see what works best for us. The reason we've tried a fully electric tractor is because there are currently two or three options out there that we feel really comfortable with demoing in our fields, it's not going to take the place of what we're currently doing. But it allows us to step into our farming practices and see if it is truly a viable option. Hybrid is a little bit more of that in between step, it's, you know, it's one step towards that end goal of zero emissions, because it is more efficient. You know, you get the benefits of that. But also, it doesn't completely Have you dependent on the grid, the electric grid or infrastructure of what's happening around you. You talked about going into larger formats, and there is a concern about battery life there. And that we know that that technology is changing rapidly. So we are starting with a couple see how it evolves, and then we can make an informed decision based on that.

Craig Macmillan 6:06

Stay with tractors are these vehicles that are coming to you from manufacturers ready to go? Are you making modifications yourself? Are you taking with a base unit making modifications to something that's already existing? What kind of involvement does it take on your part to work with this technology at this point?

Marc Di Pietra 6:21

Depending on the program that we're using, so let's say on our for example, that comes to us more or less ready to use. So they have tools that will connect to your standard three point. So there's not much modification or or there but another company, Agtonomy that we're working with, we're on the ground level with them while they're still developing. So it gives us an opportunity to give our feedback of what we're looking for. So we're seeing a lot of rapid change quickly that will help support our needs.

Craig Macmillan 6:46

Will that tractor still be based on a three point hitch?

Marc Di Pietra 6:49

It will have a front mounted tool bar on the front? And we're talking to them about getting front and rear mounted tools?

Craig Macmillan 6:56

What kind of horsepower? Are we talking here? Are we are we comparable to a regular track layer? Are we talking to a regular four wheel drive depends on the size, but are we in the same range?

Marc Di Pietra 7:06

That's the goal, you know, obviously Electric is more efficient than your standard diesel motor. So when you get a diesel motor that says they're pushing 100 horsepower, we believe that the electric range tractor that's stating a range between 45 to 85 horsepower is comparable to that 95 to 100 horsepower tractor. Now again, there's still a lot of work going on to validate that, but we have seen improved efficiencies and we think that will be if not, they're close to it.

Craig Macmillan 7:34

And getting really technical. What is the power supply? Like for these? Are you having to bring in extra electrical service above what you already have? Because a lot of shops don't have a 480? For instance, amperage? What kind of amperage do you need? It sounds like a totally new kind of thing.

Marc Di Pietra 7:50

Yeah, so for the two that I've mentioned, for us, we are using both 60 amp circuit with a 48 amp charger capability, as well as some 100 amp circuits that will support an 80 amp charger. So we're not using anything that is above and beyond like we would see with a Tesla quick charger. And in both of those cases, though, with the 40 and 80 amp chargers, we're still looking at a charge time of overnight, four to six hours.

Craig Macmillan 8:15

So that's very practical. Really. That could work.

Marc Di Pietra 8:17

Yeah. And because Treasury has several ranches, we are looking at it holistically, excuse me, we're implementing different charging systems on different sites as well to understand the draw on the need of those to see how efficient they are affected they are on our site.

Craig Macmillan 8:32

Is there any real change for the tractor operators? Are there new things they need to learn how to do or is it kind of based on what they've been doing is,

Marc Di Pietra 8:39

There is a big change for the operator because they need to understand that it's not sit in the seat, turn on the key and hit the gas pedal. It's understanding what the screen is telling you when you turn on the tractor, where you're at power wise. So there's some nuances, but ultimately, it still runs and drives like a tractor that you're familiar with. It's just like learning a new a new cellphone, for example, Android versus iPhone.

Craig Macmillan 9:02

Yeah, I just got a new phone and I'm struggling. I have to admit. You also had mentioned passive data collection, which I'm very interested in. I've been tracking this concept for quite a few years now. What kinds of data are you interested in collecting? And how's it been going so far?

Marc Di Pietra 9:15

We have been talking to several different companies that offer passive data. But our goal is to try to implement it on the platforms we're currently working with. I referenced the Agtonomy a lot, because again, our input is going into their development quite a bit. They're looking to add sensors to their machines to gather that data that we're looking for. I would say we're still in the very, very beginning stages of that. Some of the benefits of using this passive data is the machine will have more than two sets of eyes on like our current tractor and operator with that we can gather information around density, disease cluster counts, as well as monitoring the sensors that are out in the field such as irrigation or moisture. And just about anything else you can think of that a sensor can gather for you.

Craig Macmillan 10:00

And you're in early trials with it sounds like you actually started collecting data. I was a little confused.

Marc Di Pietra 10:07

Oh, excuse me. No, we haven't there are companies out there that we spoken with. But again, we're trying to rely on our partnerships and use their platform. Again, we're trying to do a lot of things on one machine to see what's valuable to us long term. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 10:21

And you had mentioned remotely operated vehicles. Is that correct? Yes, sir. Tell me about that. I just think that is so cool. Autonomous machines.

Marc Di Pietra 10:29

Thinking about remote operated, there's several factors involved. First and foremost, it's important to me and our team is the safety of our operators. Currently, we've got spray teams that are working, you know, in the middle of the night, they're working back and forth, up and down each row. So what this allows the operator to do is get back outside of the tractor, manage, ideally, multiple machines from one computer. So obviously, efficiency gains, but you're getting that operator out of harm's way out of the way of the equipment as well as out of any chemicals you might be spraying along the way.

Craig Macmillan 10:58

Are there elements of this that are controlled by computer or artificial intelligence, what I'm thinking of is there's been some work by John Deere, in particular, with GPS guided tractors in the Midwest, where you set a path and it will go wherever you tell it to go little trickier when you have a row on either side, especially if it's a seven foot row or something like that. How hard is it for an operator to control this thing?

Marc Di Pietra 11:23

Actually, from my experience, so far, controlling it with through a laptop computer, controlling not one machine, but multiple machines seems to be quite easy, because there are so many sensors on the platform that will allow it to tell you not only where it needs to go to go from, say, your barn or your shed to where it's starting a job for the day. But while it's going through the row, it's looking for any obstructions that might be in the way whether that's a tumbleweed. Coyote, a person, you know, all of those things for safety, but it also gathers all of that data. And it also knows where all the other machines are as well. And the operator is sitting behind a laptop, making sure that each path because they can see multiple machines on one screen, you know, through data points on a map, it can say, hey, that machine is going well. It's has 25% solution left, and it's tank. So we need to stop at at this point. And all the machines are talking to each other. So there's awareness about what's happening around it as well.

Craig Macmillan 12:17

That's amazing. That's amazing. How far down the path are you with this?

Marc Di Pietra 12:20

Well, I mean, there's two commercial products available now that we will have in our vineyards. Currently, we have the GUSS spray system. They've started in nuts in the Central Valley. But now they've they have actively sprayed over 1 million acres. And we have the first two vineyard sprayers in California that we will have started spraying with I guess in the next, like two weeks or so.

Craig Macmillan 12:41

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, here we are. It's time Yeah, exactly.

Marc Di Pietra 12:45

It came fast. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 12:47

From a cultural standpoint or a management standpoint, I just am curious. What kind of terrain are we talking about? Are we talking about really steep slopes, we talked about flatter ground, we talked about narrow rows. Treasury has properties all over the place, I'm sure there's a variety of topography that you're having to work with.

Marc Di Pietra 13:01

Yeah, out of the gate, we're starting at a ranch that is relatively flat, it's got long half mile rows. So it'll be nice and efficient for the machine to go up and down back and forth all day long. But the goal is ultimately to take it into the foothills where we're talking up to 10 to 15 degrees of incline that we should not see any problems. And that's with, you know, the equipment that we know we have worked Agtonomy for example, I've seen their machine, go up a degree a slope of about 25 to 30 degrees, no problem.

Craig Macmillan 13:25

We're talking about the machinery. Now let's talk about what the machines are doing. So we've talked about spraying, which is absolutely amazing. Are we using this for under vine cultivation? Are we using this for mowing or using this for tilling what kinds of things you're able to do with these machines?

Marc Di Pietra 13:40

One of the biggest benefits is the underlying cultivation piece, which will allow us to reduce the chemicals that we use in spraying specifically around our herbicide use. We've seen the ability with this autonomous equipment or remotely operated equipment to use undermine tillers and we could do multiple passes with that volt we'd knives, sunflower cultivators, things like that. We can also do a mount where we have a mower on the front and cultivator on the back, that's been a huge benefit and time savings for us as well.

Craig Macmillan 14:08

What are you seeing at this point? Or what are you thinking about? And I know that a lot of things you haven't really kind of gotten into yet, but I know you're looking forward in thinking about this, what is this going to look like from a maintenance standpoint, and also from an employee training, regardless of the position because we're going from a period of having a diesel mechanic, someone who understands how hydraulics work basic things around having vendors who can come out and replace a tire and all that kind of stuff. It sounds like there's going to be some very, very different kinds of maintenance and repair issues here. And we already mentioned drivers, it sounds like there's going to be some very different set of skills that folks are going to have to have to make these systems work. What's that wood in your imagination? What that's looking like right now?

Marc Di Pietra 14:44

Yeah, I think one of the greatest things is the opportunity to upskill our existing workforce. I mean, honestly, it's been really great to see the initial hesitation from our guys when they see this stuff rolled out on the ranch, but then ultimately, once they get their hands on it, how quickly they've adapted to it. And that's been the great Interesting to see because you know, it's getting harder and harder to get employees for the vineyard, it's they're just not available to us, which I'm sure everybody's experienced. So this has really been a great opportunity to see these guys get excited about something new, and upskill them. From a maintenance standpoint, believe it or not, it's actually been much easier than we've anticipated. There's much less regular preventative maintenance needed. So we're not doing oil changes every 500 hours, because electric components require less, they're all sealed. So there's no going into there and changing fluids and things like that. Also, the software on these systems are also capable identifying similar like your car with like a check engine light comes on the system identifies those issues and points us to to those repairs much faster. Now that said, as we evolve, I do see the need to have someone on the team who has a solid understanding of the computer systems and how to address these types of issues outside of our current model, but we also know like we've seen with the car manufacturers, they're training folks up for that. And we're, I've already reached out to a couple of the local, I wouldn't say local, but the the training like UTIs and the wild Tech's of the world to see what type of implementation they haven't talked with them about their job boards. So any young folks coming out of those programs might be looking for something interesting.

Craig Macmillan 16:14

You guys are doing so much stuff. This is amazing. You got a lot going on. Marc, is there any one thing though, that you're really excited about that you're really, really optimistic about at this point?

Marc Di Pietra 16:24

I would say from a process standpoint, like I said, it's really about the operator safety, you know, getting these guys out from behind the tractor in the middle of the night, the efficiency that it brings the reduction of chemicals, like that's all the process stuff that I'm excited about. You know, there are several cool companies out there that we're working with, you know, these guys have great ideas and great minds. And we're all thinking forward. I think that's been one thing that I've really enjoyed is seeing people not worrying about just today. But looking forward.

Craig Macmillan 16:52

And when you look into that crystal ball, what kinds of things do you see coming down the line, not things that you're able to trial now, but things that have potential on the future? There's a lot of work being done, like the precision vineyard project with Cornell and Carnegie Mellon and folks like that, what do you see out there on the horizon? It's, you know, a year ago with science fiction, hint now is starting to look like it could actually happen.

Marc Di Pietra 17:10

Yeah, I think as the autonomous piece gets smarter and better, that's going to be a huge game. And again, I go back to one operator being able to control multiple machines. So that creates efficiency. Again, it goes back to operator safety. For me, it reduces those long days, it reduces middle of the night work for those long hours, and the monotony and the safety of that individual operator, I also really liked the idea of passive data stuff that we've not been able to easily get before and then be able to make smart decisions in the field. If you've got a spot that is say disease prone or not producing as strong as other areas in the vineyard, we'll be able to capture that data and make smart decisions go forward to improve that.

Craig Macmillan 17:48

Measure, to manage, right, get to get the data to make good decisions.

Marc Di Pietra 17:52

And I think that's going to be the biggest opportunity is how do we manage all of that data? That's what I'm really curious about. And that's, that's one thing that I would really like to figure out how to unlock in the future, because we can talk about it. But there's nothing there that can manage multiple systems, multiple points of input. And then whether that's a comparison of like for like mechanical versus the, you know, the future, or whatever that might be, there's so much that we just don't know how to do yet.

Craig Macmillan 18:18

This is a huge area. But is there one thing that you would advise growers are one thing that you would say to growers around automation, hybrid electric, passive data collection, the future basically the future of this kind of mechanization in this kind of electronic world that we're moving into? Is there one piece of advice or one thing you'd one message you'd like growers to know?

Marc Di Pietra 18:37

I think everybody needs to be curious. It's all something that we need to be thinking about, talking about and to help ourselves in the industry and our planet. I mean, there's a quote that I always think of when I talk about this stuff as a rising tide lifts all boats, you know, everybody wants to keep their secret to keep their grapes or their strawberries the best, I understand that. But this technology, the way it's going, you know, labor and employee safety, it's a huge concern for everybody. And I think the more we're talking, the more we're asking questions. And you know, you brought up John Deere. I mean, they're looking into it. Now New Holland is looking into it now. And this is all things started by small people having these ideas, and it's all rolled into bigger things. I encourage everybody, just be curious and talk about it.

Craig Macmillan 19:17

This is great advice. And I think that that's important for our industry. And one of the things I've found over time grape growers are curious and grape growers are willing to experiment within limits and try different things. And I hope that no matter who you are out there, that you will heed Marc's advice and be creative and be optimistic and be open minded. Where can people find out more about you and the things that you're doing?

Marc Di Pietra 19:40

I mean, feel free to reach out to me, obviously, through LinkedIn, feel free to, you know, share my email, if that's an option. Again, I'd like to talk to anybody who's doing something or ask questions.

Craig Macmillan 19:49

Absolutely. And we have a page for each podcast where we will post any kind of resources including contact information, links, papers, anything and so Be sure if you find this interesting to check out the venue team podcast website and take advantage of all the information that's there. Well, Marc, that's all the time we've got for today. Our guest today has been Marc Di Pietra. He is regional service maintenance manager for treasuries America of treasury wine estates. I want to thank so much for being here. This has been a really fascinating conversation. For those of you who are new to downloading the podcast please, again, go to the vineyard team podcast website. We've got hundreds of episodes now on all kinds of different topics.

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Employees who are regularly trained and educated report higher levels of motivation, performance, company loyalty, and more.

In this week's Marketing Tip, we are sharing how the brand-new, Our Sustainable Story series is the perfect tool to use to train your tasting room, sales, and marketing teams. If you aren't regularly providing training and education for your staff, especially on your company's mission and values, you're missing out on opportunities to create a stronger, more dedicated workforce!

The latest tool for your team Our Sustainable Story is the latest addition to our arsenal of tools to help empower your staff.

We created this tool to help you identify and communicate 7 sustainable practices that are specific to your company. Complete the worksheet as a training and conversational exercise for your team at your next staff meeting. We highly encourage you to invite your farmer so they can describe what sustainability looks like out in the vineyard.

Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling

SIP Tip: see an example from Niner Wine Estates!

Share your Sustainable Story Regular training for your staff leads to more skilled, informed, and satisfied employees. Plus, after completing this exercise, your staff will be geared up with several unique sustainable stories to share with clients during tastings (a practice that we know can lead to more wine sales!).

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Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi, commonly abbreviated to AMF, coevolved with plants from 500 million to one billion years ago. Fossil evidence shows AMF in existence back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Paul Schreiner, Research Plant Pathologist at USDA-ARS in Corvallis Oregon explains that grapes are a very receptive host for AMF and their symbiotic relationship benefits both organisms. AMF helps plants obtain nutrients like potassium and phosphorous. The plant provides AMF with sugars and fatty acids. AMF lives both inside and outside of the plant. Inside the plant, they form arbuscules inside the root cell. These structures look like little trees and increase surface contact dramatically. Outside the plant, AMF mines for nutrients, likely releases carbon, and prevents soil erosion with its root hair-like structure.

Listen in to learn the practices you want to use, and not use to increase AMF populations.

References: * 149: Fair Market Trade: Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi and Grapevines * 151: The Role of the Soil Microbiome in Soil Health * 165: Become a Microbe Farmer: Make Compost * Article Abstract: The diversity of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi amplified from grapevine roots (Vitis vinifera L.) in Oregon vineyards is seasonally stable and influenced by soil and vine age * Paul Schreiner, Oregon State University Courtesy Appointment * Paul Schreiner on ResearchGate * USDA-Agricultural Research Service Publications

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Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Paul Schreiner. He is a research plant physiologist with USDA ARS in Corvallis, Oregon. And today we're going to talk about our arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. Thanks for being on the program.

Paul Schreiner 0:11

Thank you for having me, Craig, happy to be here and talk about one of my favorite subjects.

Craig Macmillan 0:17

Obviously, can we just go with AMF, we'll just jump right to that. Yes. Because if I have to arbuscular too many times today, I'm gonna, I'm gonna crash.

Paul Schreiner 0:27

It's a tough one. And it's back in the old days, it used to be called vesicular, arbuscular mycorrhiza. So it was even harder.

Craig Macmillan 0:34

Yeah, it was even hard. We're not in the old days. Whenever a bunch of scientists were sitting around and going, like, you know, what the V this just too much. Can we get into three words, you know, was that big national meeting of mycologist. All right. So let's just go for you studied EMF for a long time. And you have stayed in the field. So you've studied vineyards? Let's start the very beginning. So what are AMF? And what kinds of roles do they play in the soil and interacting with plants?

Speaker 2 1:00

AMF are, as you said, arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. So there are a group of fungi that evolved a really long time ago, estimates are from at least 500 million to a billion years ago.

Craig Macmillan 1:15

Wow.

Speaker 2 1:16

Yeah, that the billion number comes from some molecular clock kind of work, which, you know, is based on mutations in DNA that might be slightly overestimated, but there's fossil evidence that shows them at 450 million years ago. That's a really long time. You know, that's, that's what dinosaurs were around.

Craig Macmillan 1:35

Early dinosaurs if we had time later. I want to know how paleo Micology where I How do you find fungi, but we don't have time for that right now. But if we can come back to that, that's mind blowing.

Unknown Speaker 1:48

Yeah, we can.

Craig Macmillan 1:49

Go ahead.

Paul Schreiner 1:50

Yeah. So one thing I should say I think that's helpful is there's more than one kind of mycorrhizal fungi group, basically, right? The arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi are this older group, or they evolved a very long time ago, and there's been a long period of coevolution with plants. And what's happened is the arbuscular mycorrhiza, which is the kind that grapevines form. Most of our crop plants also form arbuscular mycorrhizal that mycorrhizal group can no longer grow or complete their lifecycle by themselves on their own, they require a host plant to get carbon to survive, there's a whole bunch of other kinds of mycorrhizal fungi. The most important besides the arbuscular would be what we typically call Ecto mycorrhizal fungi and the Ecto are typically on forest trees, especially in temperate and boreal regions. Interestingly enough, a lot of the trees in the tropics are am or arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. So, it is important to just think about that, because some people, when they hear Mycorrhizal, they automatically assume one or the other Ecto or am or arbuscular. It's even far more complicated than that, because there's like five or six other types of mycorrhizal fungi that different plant groups associate with. However, the mycorrhizal fungi that I studied the arbuscular type are the most prevalent, they're the oldest. And you know, it's kind of an interesting thing, science wise that, based on our best information, they evolved, the whole world was one big continent, right? That's when they really radiated and evolved rapidly, I can get a sequence out of grapefruits. That's a mycorrhizal arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus. And it'll match 100% to a sequence in Europe somewhere, or in South America somewhere on any other crops. And, you know, so that's kind of an interesting thing.

Craig Macmillan 3:39

That's a question. And so if we have that kind of similarity in different parts of the world, does that make the research that's done either in on vines in another continent? Or on a different crop? Does that is that useful for understanding how these things work in advance?

Paul Schreiner 3:56

Certainly, yeah. Especially in the last, I'd say 20 years, because we've developed molecular tools to really delve into evolutionary questions and DNA, those kinds of things. Were starting to separate that group of fungi with a finer tooth comb, if you will, right. In a very broad sense, there was this massive radiation during Pangea, and then all the continents separated, a lot of that genetic material is very, very similar. However, there is still evolution going on. It's just you have to look harder for it. And you have to do whole genomes. That's not something that I do. I'm much more on the practical side of agriculture. But I tried to stay in tune with all that. This group of fungi traditionally were thought to be asexual. Now, we think there might be some sort of sexual phase, but it's unclear and not clearly demonstrated yet. We're learning more all the time. But it's also a slow, kind of a slow process. Their interest intractable to study this group of fungi a little bit because they do rely on a host plant to complete their lifecycle. So like, we can't culture them and put them in a lab. So were grown on petri dishes, you know, that kind of thing. They have to be grown with a plant. So we've developed ways to do that. But it does present challenges.

Craig Macmillan 5:10

Yeah, how do you do that.

Paul Schreiner 5:11

And this is really important for this group of fungi. From a practical sense, you have to grow them on a plant companies that produce mycorrhizal inoculum have this kind of fungi, the arbuscular type, they are growing them on plants. Typically, they're doing that in a some kind of either soil or soilless mix, and producing that in a greenhouse. And what like when I grow cultures of these fungi, we grow them on plants. One of the challenges with this group of fungi that relates to all this is that they're also ubiquitous around the globe, pretty much anywhere you have plants, these fungi are are there, the diversity is different in different places, of course, and there probably are some specialists, you know, groups, for example, that might be in more tropical climates versus more boreal climates. But I mean, we're still just beginning to understand that kind of information with this group of fungi. You asked also, what role do they do in terms of soil ecology or plant ecology? There's no question. The biggest role that this fungi plays is in helping plants obtain phosphorus. There is evidence of uptake of other nutrients, particularly those nutrients that are more immobile in soil. And that's why phosphorus is one in particular, but Potassium is another nutrient that's not super immobile in soil, they help take up potassium, they also help take up copper, zinc, I'd say those four are probably the top. However, they also play a role in nitrogen uptake in some plants. You know, we have addressed this in grapes with my former student, Tian Tian, who's now a farm advisor in Southern California working on table grapes, part of her thesis work was looking at the nitrogen impact on mycorrhizae, and how they help with nitrogen uptake. And we're continuing that work to some degree now with my new student. So far, we've not been able to show that the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi are helping grapevines take up nitrogen. However, lack of evidence doesn't mean it can't happen. Other groups have shown in other plant systems that they do help the plants take up nitrogen. But still even even though that's true, without question, Phosphorus is the main thing that this group of fungi helps plants obtain from soil, you know, and phosphorus is a really critical thing, because yeah, phosphorus reserves are running out, you know, we've been mining basically guano, right? I mean, that's our main source of phosphorus all around the world. I just read an article it was in the New Yorker the other day, about phosphorus. I'm glad it's, you know, being highlighted again, because, you know, some people think 20 years from now, we're going to be out of phosphorus.

Craig Macmillan 7:40

I think so.

Paul Schreiner 7:41

And we're going to be in a world of hurt. Yeah. So it's hard to know for sure. Other people estimate we've got hundreds of years, but I don't know how good these estimates are. But helping plants get phosphorus means we don't need as much phosphorus to apply as a fertilizer. This is becoming an issue for basically the whole globe and human production. Yeah, their biggest role is Phosphorus, they also probably help do other things in plants, which I can kind of go down a list if you want.

Craig Macmillan 8:07

Well, before we do that, I do want to do that. Because I think that that's crucial because a number of ideas have come up and some I think are probably accurate. Some I think are not, but I don't know, AMF, it's a parasite or it's a symbiotic organism?

Paul Schreiner 8:21

Yeah there symbionts.

Craig Macmillan 8:23

Okay, there's symbionts. Now, how does the plant and the fungi interact? Are there things that go into the root or the root is coded by something? Or how does that work?

Paul Schreiner 8:34

Yeah, so that's, it's a pretty interesting process. If you start at the very beginning of a naked root, let's say, you know, a root does not colonize this starting to grow in soil. It sends out signals that the fungus consents, or the fungi, you know, there's more than one fungus in this group. Some of those signals, we already know what those are, like Striga lactones are one for example, you know, complicated term, but it's just a particular group of compounds plants make, the fungi can sense that. And they can grow towards the root, you know, the hyphy of the fungus, when it touches the root or makes contact with the root, it forms what's called an apex thorium, and then it makes a penetration peg and can basically punches through the wall of the root. This is the same way that fungal pathogens, you know, who are bad fungi, let's say right, they also use the same kind of mechanism. And typically when that's happening, you know, there's enzymes involved, bits of the cell wall of the plant and or some of its cuticle get kind of chewed up by enzymes and it releases certain compounds and then the plant can say, Oh, I know this one's a bad guy, or sometimes a plant is producing enzymes, for example, kinase that's trying to degrade the fungus itself and then you release certain other signal compounds, so the plant can sense that and in certain pathogens. We know that a very specific metabolite can be sensed by the plant and it stimulates the plant to respond in a defense response with the mycorrhizal fungi. The defense response is repressed.

Craig Macmillan 10:00

Okay, oh.

Paul Schreiner 10:01

Yeah, and so part of that is probably the kinds of chemicals that the and fungi have that are being released, you know, through these various enzymatic interactions have yet to be recognized by the plant as as the bad guy. Anyway, that's, that's maybe getting a little too into the weeds. But yeah, it all starts in the same way like a pathogen trying to get in or even, you know, there's a group of parasitic plants that form these things called hostaria, that attack roots of other plants. Same kind of process.

Craig Macmillan 10:31

It sounds to me like there's an enzymatic reaction, and then also a signaling reaction, which would probably be some kind of a protein, I would guess it's complicated, or it's a feedback thing in that, oh, I've been poked, oh, I'm gonna do this, Hey, wait a minute, this is okay. And then they kind of settles into a balance, I guess. Is that fair to say?

Paul Schreiner 10:49

Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. It's really complicated. And I mean, we only are beginning to understand the way they communicate. You know, there's a whole new class of compounds called effector proteins, which are secreted by different organisms and soil plant can recognize a lot of those, it crosses many things like even goes to nematodes, right? Like this is all kind of newer stuff that we're learning. But the bottom line is, the am fungi get in because they don't stimulate a defense response in the plant. And that's because there's been at least 500 million years of coevolution the plant knows these guys are okay, these are the good guys. Once they're inside, they grow throughout the cortex of fine roots. And then they form these things called arbuscules. And that's where they get their name. So the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi form arbuscles, our bus skills are basically like a little tree, if you can see a picture of it, it looks like a little tree inside a root cortical cell. It's just basically a way that both the fungus and the plant increase their surface area contact by like, a huge amount, you know, like, like, imagine what a tree looks like above ground, you know, like, especially without the leaves on the wintertime is a great time. That's exactly what it arbuscular Looks like in miniature inside a root cortical cell, the plant membrane grows all the way around that there's all kinds of activity that arbuscule cell is super active, because there's a lot of metabolic things happening. And that's where the plant and the fungus are exchanging nutrients,

Craig Macmillan 12:17

then then exchange is cell wall to cell wall. It's not puncturing into a cell, or is it punching into? Oh, heck, what's the word I'm looking for, a pipeline?

Paul Schreiner 12:28

No, the and fungi don't get into the vascular tissues of the plant, they actually colonize these cortical cells, they're sort of like, if you think about leaves, leaves the cells, we think about most of the mesophyll, or the spongy mesophyll. They're the ones that are doing photosynthesis, right? In the root cells that are most active in the fine roots are the cortical cells. That's where most of the activity is happening. So the fungi colonize there, they form these arbusculs which is, I mean, they're, they're amazing structures, they're very cool. They're short lived, like, a lot of times in arbuscular, will form, develop, and then degrade within, say, a week to 10 day period, you know, so it's like a fairly rapid turnover during that you increase the surface contact between the two organisms, but there's always still a membrane on the fungal side and a membrane on the plant side that keeps those two organisms separate, you know, their cytoplasm doesn't mix. You know, that would be weird, kind of, you know, would be weird. Yeah, we just don't see that in biology, you know, they really have much greater metabolic activity in those arbuscular cells. So what happens is, the fungus is giving phosphorus to the plant in this process, and other nutrients. And then in exchange, the plant is giving the fungus sugars. And we now know also fatty acids. Yeah, that's been a recent discovery in the last two decades. Anyway, I can't remember exactly when it came out. We now know because of genome sequencing efforts, that this group of fungi lack the ability to make fatty acids, they actually get those from the plant as well.

Craig Macmillan 14:01

So we've got the arbuscules on the roots. That's kind of the structure, we've got the peg in there. Now what's going on away from the roots? Are these big long, multi celled single identifiable organisms, or is it kind of a community or what what's going on?

Paul Schreiner 14:19

There are different fungi. Okay, so there's multiple species, a single root can have many species of fungi inside it. However, those species also probably mark out some territory. This part is still a little bit unclear because it's really hard to pinpoint this stuff. Just as an example, our research vineyard here at Oregon State University that I work on, even though I'm ARS I also work in in part of OSU, our research vineyard. I think we found 19 Different mycorrhizal fungi. colonizing the groups, the roots of the grape vines, you know, there's a fair number, how they actually interact on a very tiny scale like within an individual single individual root is it's hard to know for sure, that's again Getting off into the weeds a bit.

Craig Macmillan 15:01

Not so much because I'm going somewhere with this.

Paul Schreiner 15:04

I want to get back to your question though about what's happening outside because that's really critical. Yeah, what's happening inside is we have these aruscules and hyphae growing inside the root, and it can be, it can be very intense, especially in Grapes. Grapes are a super host, in my view, they really love mycorrhiza they get heavily colonized. But then on the outside out in the soil, the naked hyphae, if you will, of the mycorrhizal fungi are exploring the soil. And that external phase we call extra radical hyphae, it actually is physiologically different than what's on the inside of the root. I'm trying to think of a good analogy, but basically, the inside part has a different function than the outside part. And so the inside part is trying to get carbon from the plant give the plant phosphorus and other nutrients, the outside part is mining the soil for that phosphorus, exploring the soil, it also probably exudes a significant amount of its carbon into the soil and helps the soil microbial community get a carbon source as well. And these fungi seem to play a critical role in helping soil aggregate and or resist erosion, basically, I mean, the evidence of this is, is pretty clear. But we also know that roots do the same function, especially root hairs, you know, so one way to think about these fungi is they're, they're sort of like root hairs. Except they're even finer, you know, their job is to connect root to the soil and to the soil, water and nutrient supply

Craig Macmillan 16:30

Two spatial questions. One, when they say they explore space, how deep do we find an organism? Do we find a fungus that's connected to a to a vine or plant, right? So how far down is it going? And then how far out in lateral space is it going?

Paul Schreiner 16:44

People have studied this by using artificial system where we can put a screen for example, like we can grow a plant in a greenhouse in soil, have it be colonized by microbes and fungi, and then put a screen in place that the roots cannot cross. But the fungi can, you know, something below like, or I don't know, somewhere in the ballpark of 40 micron diameter screen, so very fine screen like a silk screen, the hyphae can grow in there. So like people have shown they can grow 15 or 20 centimetres away, no problem, you know, significant distance when you're talking about soil as far as how deep they go in soil, that varies a lot with the rooting depth of whatever the plant of interest is, or, you know, the ecosystem, we tend to see greater colonization in the, in the surface soil, which just fits everything else that happens in the surface soil, right? I mean, that's where more of the water and nutrients are being turned over. It's also you know, where the soil environment is more favorable to life, right, because of this whole soil structure, idea and porosity, allowing oxygen to get into the soil in a vineyard. Particularly, you know, we always talk about vineyards and how the roots go all the way to China kind of thing, right?

Craig Macmillan 17:52

Until you hit clay or limestone.

Paul Schreiner 17:54

Sometimes roots can go really far. I mean, 30 meters I've seen reported and get into, you know, basically rock, right? There's not too much mycorrhizal fungi down where we're there in rock, we did the study, again, it was at the research vineyard. And when you get into what is known as the sea horizon, in the soil, which we would typically think of as the subsoil, it's where it's more compact, there's less porosity, and it's pretty dense, right? And it's more like clay, colonization drops off a lot, you know, we might have 90% of roots are colonized in the topsoil. But in the subsoil might be 30%. That's because many things, one, the environment is just not suitable for life in general, at that depth, because it's compacted, there's less oxygen, it's a different environment.

Craig Macmillan 18:37

And again, you've mentioned AMF need more than just a plant root, they need to be out in the environment, there needs to be oxygen, there needs to be water, there needs to be other, there needs to be a favorable environment for life period. Right now, one thing we've talked about water holding. In other interviews, we've talked about water holding capacity improves in fields that have a higher or more successful AMF population, and that you talked about aggregates, it's part of that picture. We've talked about nutrient movement particular phosphorus, one of the things that I've heard people just kind of say colloquially is that if you have a meaningful mix, whatever the popular population, ecosystem involving AMF, it's going to lead to greater stability in the vine, and give the vine an ability to tolerate drought stress a little bit better. Are you finding those things? Are those things true? Even if it's kind of anecdotal? I mean, you're scientist, so you don't like anecdotal probably. But

Paul Schreiner 19:33

Yeah, so that's, you know, that's the interesting world of science in my world. I need to have evidence for what I say, especially, especially when it comes to publishing scientific papers, right?

Craig Macmillan 19:43

Well, of course, yeah.

Paul Schreiner 19:44

But then there's also opinion, you know, sometimes you can't show things in science. I mean, science isn't perfect, right? Mistakes happen, and some things are just more intractable and difficult to show, however, okay, on a broad scale, there's pretty good evidence that mycorrhizal fungi helped Plants tolerate drought stress better than non mycorrhizal plants when you know when they've been compared. So that has certainly a long term consequence that you might think would eventually relate to stability in some way.

Craig Macmillan 20:16

So one of the reasons that I asked that is science, Applied Science, especially applied Agricultural Science often is moved by growers noticing something or having an image in their head about how something works. And then folks like you come in and say, Okay, well, let's find out. Another thing that I've heard people mentioned that I don't know is true or not, is do AMF actually move water into the plant? We know that they transport minerals, or they actually move water into the plant?

Paul Schreiner 20:42

Yeah, that's a great question. The answer to that question at this point in time is, they don't move water in a way that we would like to think of it, they're not acting like a pipe, because their own cytoplasm is a, you know, it's a vital part of them, it's just like us, you know, like the inside of ourselves, we're not just gonna give that away, people used to think of them like, Oh, they're just pipes out there, and the water just flows right through them into the plant. Well, that's impossible, that just can't happen. What does happen potentially, is water moves on the external surface of the hyphae. Because similar to a plant root, they exude some carbon, they have some structure makes connection to soil water in the pores of soil. And so in theory, because these fungi are much finer diameter, let's say 50 to 100 times smaller in diameter than a root is, you know, fine root of a plant so they can get into smaller pores inside the soil and get access to soil water that the root may not be able to get access to. On top of that, there's potential especially because they help aggregate soil and help improve soil structure, they may actually in the long run, improve soil water holding capacity, because they're adding to that long term carbon storage of the soil. It's really well known that as you add organic matter to soil, you improve the water holding capacity of soil. The am fungi do do that. I mean, partly it's this bit of carbon that they exude into the soil rhizosphere itself or the we call it the micro rhizosphere. Even their turnover. So when they die, or when they're eaten by something else, they're also then contributing to that pool of soil carbon, and the more old and complex that carbon is, probably the more it's tends to be tied to soil, water and small pores. Yes, they do help, we can show that they help plants take up a little bit more water, but it's not a big deal. You know, it's kind of like let's say the plant on a given day use 10 liters of water and you let the plant go to the wilt point. Maybe the mycorrhizal plant got another 10 mils of water out of 10 liters, you know, it's not a huge amount.

Craig Macmillan 22:55

They're not the pipeline, but they are changing the soil environment such that the water holding capacity is changing. And that makes it more water for the mines to pick up. So it's not that there is a pipeline through the mycorrhizal fungi but that it's changing the environment in a way that makes it more likely that the water will be held and that the mind then has it available.

Paul Schreiner 23:12

Right and that that effect is small, it's hard to show because it's very small. The other thing that they probably help with the plants is that as soil dries, nutrients are harder to get. And particularly those nutrients that are more immobile and soil like phosphorus, a big part of why we see improved drought tolerance in a mycorrhizal plant is because they are accessing soil phosphorus better than a non mycorrhizal plant can and that's contributing to the overall drought tolerance of that plant. So some of our effects that we see are an indirect effect of improved phosphorus nutrition that goes across to any of the other functions that AMS might help plants do. Like another big category that I feel I should mention is there's good evidence that mycorrhizal fungi help plants resist or become more tolerant to other pathogens in the soil. So the bad guys or even nematodes, a lot of work has been done on this, you know, the experiments run the gamut, like they're there all over the place, because, you know, we're talking about really complex things. One of the things that we know, is that just improving the overall phosphorus nutrition of the plant and or other nutrients, sometimes it's, it might be another new nutrient that's limiting that gets you added tolerance to to any of these other effects, right? Whether it's drought, whether it's a root pathogen, even like insect feeding on above ground parts of the plant, you know, I mean, if you're in a better nutritional state, you're going to be better able to tolerate a lot of things. A lot of what happens with AMF is linked to their role in phosphorus, you know, so going back to this phosphorus story, some of my colleagues get mad at me because I they think I'm too opinionated about phosphorus. But I mean

Craig Macmillan 24:59

You You're having beers with people. And they're like, Paul, when you get off the phosphorous thing?

Paul Schreiner 25:05

Yeah, they're like, come on, Paul, you know, they play a role in nitrogen too.

Craig Macmillan 25:10

Okay, so we're in at a time with a couple of things I just absolutely, positively have to hit on if we draw the big old box around this topic, we would say, AMF are beneficial for vineyards. Okay, so what kinds of things can I do as a grower to encourage a AMF and what kinds of things should I not do that might dink the AMF community?

Paul Schreiner 25:29

Very good question. The most important thing probably is to think about AMF, before you plant a vineyard. And so like in some of the materials that I've I've, I've written about and published on, especially for like trade journals and trying to help growers, it's really important in my mind to separate pre plant versus post plant, and at the pre plant stage is really a time you should think about mycorrhizal fungi because that's the time. If they're not there, you've got a problem. But chances are, they're already there. It's also the pretty much the time that you can add mycorrhiza and they're going to do something, you have an opportunity to inoculate vines if you want when they go into the ground. The biggest thing about pre plant is what is the past history of that land, especially the recent couple of years if you've had plants on it, especially if their host plants for mycorrhizal fungi, which almost all of our crop plants are, even if it came out of say, forest land, and then was converted to vineyard. Typically, there's a AMF there because even in the forest, which are dominated by Ecto mycorrhizal trees, for example, here, and in the north, west, for example, there are still understory plants that rely on AMF. And so the AMF are there, normally, you don't have to inoculate. But knowing what the land history is, is very helpful. The worst thing you can do is of course, apply a fumigant, which we are doing much, much less now than we used to. Not that that will will stop entirely. But if you fumigate especially with like in the old days, methyl bromide was the main fumigant used, you'll kill the mycorrhizal fungi. And so you would want to inoculate if you did that. The other thing is if you have a really, really long period of fallow land, and when I say fallow, I mean fallow no weeds, nothing, most of our weed species also support AMF. So I mean, even having weeds on the ground before you plant a vineyard is going to keep the population up. And again, that goes back to the biology, this group of fungi that they can't grow on their own. And so eventually they'll be depleted in soil if there's no plants to keep feeding them. So that kind of relates back to the very beginning of our conversation, which is why this group of fungi is different. So like, basically avoid long fallow plant a cover crop of clover, for example, that's a good one, because Clover is very heavily colonized. It also provides nitrogen, which is good for vines, you know, especially at establishment and avoid fumigants. Once you get to the post plant side of things, I think the most critical things to think about are tillage, and then fertilizer use.

Craig Macmillan 27:56

What happens there?

Paul Schreiner 27:59

With tillage, you breakup the mycorrhizal network that's in the soil. And so like we talked about that external phase, or what we call the extra radical hyphae of this group of fungi, that phase is out in the soil and it actually survives and overwinters even for example, like you know, some of it dies back, but some of it remains if you keep destroying that with tillage. Eventually you reduce the population of AMF, there are a few fungi that seem to be much more tolerant of tillage. And these are some of our favorite lab rat ones, for example. Ones that are tolerant of disturbance have been ones that are most often done well in the laboratory and are easily easy to culture. Again, we're culturing on a plant but still similar kind of thing. So tillage is one thing. The fertilizer issue is I would avoid both high nitrogen and high phosphorus inputs. We have shown in some of my work if you apply phosphorus, for example, to the foliage, which some people like to do, you can reduce mycorrhizal colonization. It's all tied into the whole plant response to these this group of fungi, you know, plants evolved with the fungi, right? It's not just the fungi that were evolving. They know that the main function is phosphorus. So when the plant has high phosphorus status, it down regulates the colonization by this group of fungi. Well, when you get plants phosphorus, especially to the foliage, it sends a signal to the roots, I'm very happy, and it tends to reduce colonization.

Craig Macmillan 29:24

Specifically, how many units of nitrogen are we talking about?

Paul Schreiner 29:28

That gets into tricky territory.

Craig Macmillan 29:30

You know, if I'm putting on a 777 am I am i doing a bad thing?

Paul Schreiner 29:35

Probably not course, it also depends on the rate, you know, I mean, 777 But you're putting out 200 pounds per acre that's

Craig Macmillan 29:42

Yeah, that's why use the term units.

Speaker 2 29:45

Yeah, you know, and the thing about viticulture is we don't need as much nitrogen and as much phosphorus that as we do in other classic farming crops, you know, like the big the big crops corn soybean commodity. Yeah, commodity grapes are super cheap. super efficient at getting nutrients, other work that I do, which is actually more of more of my time spent on nutrition than it is on mycorrhizal fungi. But, you know, we've shown that high nitrogen is not necessarily a good idea in the vineyard, right. And most people know that. And almost intuitively, you don't want a massive canopy, that shading the fruit.

Craig Macmillan 30:19

In a vineyard, if I'm putting on nitrogen at a replacement rate, so I'm looking at how many pounds per acre I took out, I'm guessing and how many pounds per ton that relates to taking in cycling from canes and leaves that fall on the ground and go into the soil. You know, most vineyards you're looking at not a lot. So I've looked at some organic systems that are putting in, you know, two pounds per acre, the highest I think I've ever seen was 25 pounds per acre. Eight is a pretty good number kind of on average total. It sounds to me like these replacement level rates, not the high rate, but the replacement level rates where we're, we purposely are trying not to get a bigger canopy, we're not trying to bump a vine. That sounds like those are fine.

Paul Schreiner 30:58

I think so we've done work here, see, it was in Chardonnay, and also Pinot Noir. And we were putting out 20 and 40 pounds of N per acre. These are not high rates in in my view, especially when we look at agriculture as a whole right, we can see a little bit of a depression in mycorrhizal colonization, when we apply, say 40 pounds, or 60 pounds of nitrogen per acre, we don't wipe it out entirely, you know, the vines also can recover. The other thing is, the kind of nitrogen you put out may play a role as well. More soluble classic conventional fertilizers that have more soluble N and especially more soluble P will probably have a more negative impact. If you're putting out more organic sources of those fertilizers, because they're more complex, you know, they don't cause as quick of a response in the plant. And it does seem that that does not have as a negative impact on AMF, as the more soluble forms.

Craig Macmillan 31:58

There we go. Now we're out of time, unfortunately, this could go on forever, you and I should get together sometime and just hang out talk about phosphorus all you want. What is one piece of advice that you would give to grape growers related to this topic, especially if they want to increase or maintain in AMF population in their vineyard?

Paul Schreiner 32:17

You know, the most important thing is to be conservative with inputs. I think that's probably the the key thing conservative with both water inputs and nitrogen inputs and phosphorus inputs. You know, the role of fungicides, so far does not really appear to be a big deal. And again, we don't have time to go into all that. But the evidence that we've collected so far suggests that you know our fungicide spray programs, for example, which we're talking about controlling things in the canopy, I'm not seeing a clear effect on microns of fungi because of that. If you overwater over fertilize. That's when you're going to do damage to Microsoft fungi, you know that that's clear. And then the other piece of advice is think about it pre plant, because that's the time you can actually do something put a cover crop in prior to planting the vineyard and I bet 99% of the time, the mycorrhizal population that's there will be sufficient to colonize the vine roots and be healthy goes back to just very briefly the fact that I consider grape vines, a very, very receptive host for mycorrhizal fungi. I've looked at other crop plants, including other woody perennials, and grape vines are so heavily colonized. It's it's truly amazing.

Craig Macmillan 33:28

That is cool. Where can people find out more about you? And or more about this topic? You mentioned research that's been published recently on some of these topics. Where can we find you?

Paul Schreiner 33:39

So the easy way to find me is type my name Paul Schreiner. And grapevine will be in the title in the show notes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you just put my name and grapevine nutrition, or grapevine and AMS, I should pop up as the first thing on Google. But you can also just email me paul.schreiner@usda.gov. And I'm happy to provide for those that are more interested in getting into the weeds. I can provide you some lists of good references and whatnot. So I'm happy to do that.

Craig Macmillan 34:05

That's fantastic. My guest today has been Paul Shriner. He is a research plant physiologist with USDA ARS. He's based in Corvallis, Oregon. This has been really fun for me. I hope it's fun for our listeners, too. This is such a hot topic. And so thank you very much for being on the podcast. Really appreciate it. Paul,

Unknown Speaker 34:22

Thank you so much, Craig. It was great having this conversation

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It’s here! The tool that you need to tell your Sustainable Story.

In this week's Marketing Tip we are launching the brand new, Our Sustainable Story series. Research shows that the demand for sustainable products keeps growing so we developed this series just for you! By following along with this series, you will be able to incorporate your message of sustainability into your whole business. Here is how to start telling your customers how you take care of the people and the planet today.

Get Started 1. Download the “Our Sustainable Story” fillable PDF (print version and electronic filling version) 2. Complete the PDF with your unique stories alongside your whole team (viticulturist, winemaker, tasting room, sales, marketing). 3. Share your stories in all of your marketing channels (we're here to help – see below!)

Want an example? Read how Niner Wines Estates protects the people and the planet by embodying the 7 values of SIP Certified.

Stay Tuned Because telling your sustainable story can help you sell more wine, we have created a 7-month series to help you incorporate your good work into every aspect of your messaging.

Throughout the rest of the year, we will share easy-to-implement training, branding, and sales strategies that will positively impact your business. Plus, we will share SIP Certified members’ Sustainable Stories to further inspire you.

Stay tuned, here is what’s coming up:

Continuous onboarding: a training strategy.
The “why”s and “how”s of featuring sustainability on your website.
New SIP Certified tools for consumer education.
Re-vamped SIP Smart online course for your staff.
How to update your photography on any budget.
Featuring sustainability via social media.
Self-guided QR tours for your visitors.
Newsletter tips for your audiences.

Download the new Our Sustainable Stories worksheet to easily highlight 7 things your brand does sustainably!

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

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Vineyard farmers manage numerous pests but the invasive species can be some of the most troublesome. Kyle McAbee, President of McAbee Ag Consulting, PCA and CCA sustainability specialist shares what growers need to know to manage pests currently in their area, like Vine Mealybug, and prepare for ones that could come in the future, like Spotted Lantern Fly. Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is critical. Sustainable and conventional growers should rotate chemistries, scout to track location, time of year, and mating events, look at how other areas manage the pest, control host species, and be ready to do something about the issue. Most importantly, growers should talk with their Ag Commissioner, Farm Advisor, and each other.

References: * 26: Controlling Mealybug Vectors of Grapevine Viruses * 49: Stopping the Spread of Red Leaf Viruses * 96: Spotted Lanternfly - Threat to California * Kyle McAbee email * McAbee Ag Consulting FaceBook page * Penn State Extension Spotted Lanternfly * StopSLF.org * UC IPM: Vine Mealybug

Vineyard Team Programs: * April 12, 2023 Neighborhood Vine Mealy Bug Management Meeting - REGISTER * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - DONATE * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Kyle McAbee. He is president of McAbee Ag Consulting. He is a licensed pest control advisor, and certified crop advisor with a certification in sustainability specialization. And we're going to talk about pests. Thanks for being thanks for being on podcast Kyle.

Kyle McAbee 0:18

Yeah, good to be with you Craig.

Craig Macmillan 0:20

So you and I were just chatting. And I also been thinking about this a lot recently. And one of the big challenges for sustainability in agriculture in general was pest management, obviously. And I've been looking back into the past and kind of watching things. And I've been wondering if you see something similar to this, have you seen changes in pest pressure, different kinds of pressure, particular pest in different regions? In the last seven or eight years?

Kyle McAbee 0:46

Yes, absolutely. Definitely seen, you know, fluctuations in pest pressure, with certain pests, likely an average overtime average, slow increase, but that said, you know, it's it's year to year, some years, you know, we're looking for certain pests in places that we've seen them for years in and years out and can't find them. I'll give you an example. Last year, the mite population, in particular Paso Robles, but I think in a wider area, you know, I speak with a lot of different PCAs in the local industry, and we're all scratching our heads wondering, you know, hey, we've had Pacific Mite these blocks for the last six, seven years in, we can't find one this year. It just depends on the season and what pest we're talking about, of course, too.

Craig Macmillan 1:29

And that's a really interesting one to me, because that suggests that biological control is working, right? Because you're not treating for mites unless you're seeing mites. So it's not a question of a prophylactic set of sprays, necessarily, they've knocked on the population, one would think, or maybe it's some kind of changing climate reason.

Kyle McAbee 1:48

When we're looking at any of these populations, whether it be pest or whether it be a beneficial insect. It is absolutely environmentally based, whether, you know, we had a warm winter, and it didn't knock back the overwintering populations as normal, or we had an extremely cold winter, which, you know, could further give us some over over winter kill on the overwintering populations, depending on what pest we're talking about, obviously, but yeah, environmental chemicals that are being used, and well, not even chemicals. You know, of course, cultural practices, you know, what folks are doing for dust control for mites? For example, you know, there's just so many factors. But yes, I do think environment and warm winters, and obviously, warm spring and summer have played a big part in increased pest pressure, and particularly mealybug.

Craig Macmillan 2:34

Yeah, so with mites, we just talked about a decline. And when we're talking about vine mealybug, I've been hearing the same thing. And it seemed like, well, back in the 90s, when it showed up, it was just a disaster. I mean, it was really, really bad, you know, and it's never gonna go away. But then things seem like they kind of settled down. I mean, he still had to deal with it. But it wasn't the kind of incredible devastation that we saw in the late 90s. Now you're seeing these things start to these populations and the damage start to come back up, right?

Kyle McAbee 3:02

Yes, I do believe that, you know, as an industry, overall, we've definitely seen an increase in the last, I guess, eight harvests or so that have been in Paso Robles. And not just Paos Robles, you know, kind of up and down the central coast. And yeah, yeah, absolutely seen seen situations where, you know, we've been in control of vine mealybug in certain areas, you know, our hotspots, if you will, is that all of a sudden, we've kind of lost control lost a grip a little bit, or, you know, they're starting to win a little bit more than they were before. Additionally, and more importantly, to me, is we've got blocks and vineyards, that historically, you know, we've been rigorously scouting them season in and season out. And all of a sudden, we're finding mealy bugs, and I'm, and, you know, we'll, you know, blocks that we've trapped, for years just preempt, you know, preventatively to monitor the population that way as well. All of a sudden, we start getting a, you know, a couple counts here, and a couple of counts there. And so we start paying closer attention. And, you know, couple year two, year three after that, then we, you know, all of a sudden, hey, we found some vines with mealybug, on Vine mealybug. And knowing that, you know, had not had that problem in those blocks previously. So new populations moving into new blocks.

Craig Macmillan 4:17

From what I understand we're finding vi mealybug in areas where we haven't had it before. We're seeing increases in the counts, populations are there. Do you have some ideas about why that might be?

Kyle McAbee 4:29

Two different things going on here? We're gonna start with areas blocks of vineyards that we know we've had hotspots of vine mealybug we've been watching them and fighting them for years, maybe a decade for some folks maybe longer for others in those areas. You know, we've had successful years weather that we've had help from Mother Nature and those years in addition to our, you know, IPM programs, whatever it may be, but I do know that over time in the last, you know, five years call it I've definitely had some areas where I've seen Those spots increase, and I've started to scratch my head. And despite the fact that I rotate chemicals, and, you know, IRAC groups and all that, and our cultural practices, I do see, you know, some loss of control in those areas and increase in population and maybe, you know, even growth, you know, outward into the vineyard, you know, I think that, in particular has a lot to do part just in part, but a lot of it is that has got to do with maybe some chemical resistance, some some product resistance, you know, in particular, the neonic, the IRAC 4A's have been so widely used year in and year out, over and over, I've been very suspicious of resistance to those, I don't lean just on those, but I've definitely seen areas where we get no control from those products. And so I've done some work with the USDA to look into that, in particularly one vineyard in Monterey County, we, you know, we took samples of the population, and that was an inconclusive test, you know, there's many reasons as to why that didn't, didn't really work out, a lot of it was the protocol in the lab and how they were doing it, but that doesn't change my mind. And the idea that we do have some resistance to, to those products, not just to pick on those, but I think that's where first place to start, if we're going to talk about resistance with my mealybug I think that's a big part of the problem. The other part of that the meaning, you know, hotspots that are have spread, or you know, are getting worse, I think that those vines are getting older, and the, you know, the bark is fluffing, and there's just more protection for them underneath the bark, as opposed to young, young vineyard, you know, so those hotspots, you know, obviously, as you go, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 years later, well, those vines are a whole different environment for vine mealybug. And I think that plays a big part into it as well, you get some old grenache or syrah or whatever it may be some of these varietals that that do tend to really multilayers of slough bark, it's just impossible to get any of these chemistries, whether it be organic, or conventional, whatever it may be any of these products in there, and there's just too many places for him to hide, there's got to be some sort of resistance issues, at least that's my opinion, I think others agree. But there's also you know, environmental factors, not just the weather, but you know, in the more of a micro environment for these insects. So you know, these these areas that we've had these populations that we've monitored, that we've been fighting for years, and been successful all the sudden, you know, you're seeing lack of control, and you're having a hard time with even new products, and new chemistries, and additional rotation and stuff. And I think that's got a lot to do with, you know, those vines have changed in the you know, those five or 10 years, you know, they've gotten older and a big part of, as we all know, are most you know, most folks know, and older vines got, you know, much more complex bark system on the trunks and cordons, multi layers, much more area for these these insects to hide under the bark and where we can't make contact with them. And I think that's a big part of it that I know a lot of folks have talked about, and we're all aware of and there's just, you know, what do you do? Right, but I think that's a big part of why these hotspots have have gotten worse, personally, it's coverage at that point, right? It's it's simply coverage.

Craig Macmillan 8:20

In the world of fungicides we faced this for a long time. And the question then is they go Okay, now what do I do? Where do I go from here? I've become dependent on certain materials? Now I'm trying different things. I'm still like in control software chemistries, we're talking about organophosphates, or anything. What's your strategy? What do you think? And where are you going to go in the future with this?

Kyle McAbee 8:39

I'm not the only one doing this. But we in our problem areas, we rotate our chemistries a lot, but that's not all we do. A big part of this is scouting, obviously, you know, we we have to stay on top of it and monitoring any spread or new hotspots. So that's a big one. Another huge part. I mean, okay, so you've identified where they're at, well, what do you do? Well, trapping is a huge part of this cultural practice, if you will, in monitoring not just where they're at, and what they're doing, but mating events and trying to attack these things from the inside out, in addition to chemical programs that are, you know, we all use a lot of the same products, which is kind of why I touched on potential for resistance, but trapping and reacting accordingly. So looking at those meaning events, if you're going to trap, you better be willing to do something about it. Okay, we've got a count of 50 in this trap. Well, the clock is ticking. You know, that mating event is happening. Now. You don't have seven days, you don't have 14 days, you need to be able to get out there now. And if you're using floatable meeting disruptors, you've got to be willing to go out there and spray that at least that area, you don't have to spray the whole vineyard but you know, depending on the size of the property, reacting to it accordingly. The other option, you know, some of these mating disruption companies, they have the hangers and those last long So you can, you know, you've got a hotspot in an area. And as soon as you get that first flight, you know, hang those things out there in the spring, you'll likely, you know, disrupt a couple mating events at that point, you know, I believe they call for a lot of those that last, you know, 90 days or so depending on the weather. I know for a fact they're working on ones that their prototypes at this point, but they are supposed to last quite a bit longer than that. So I mean, we're talking a big chunk of our season at that point, and it goes to the organic versus conventional, right. So the flowable is not organic, certified, the cards are, well, just because you're conventional, doesn't mean you don't use the cards, I think the cards are a big part of that, you know, that meeting disruption process. So if you're conventional, I think, you know, don't look away from the cards just because they're organic. I mean, there's a lot of benefits to those things.

Craig Macmillan 10:47

Absolutely. And I think I've seen that in powdery mildew management to where folks that are not certified organic are putting a lot of Omri approved products in their in their rotation, which is interesting, because that was so that was certainly not the case back in the day. Okay. So this is a great example where we had an invasive pest, we've been trying to figure out what to do now we're trying new things, and it's gonna be constant, right. But what about new invasive pests? There's a couple of things that are out there that I think it's only a matter of time before they show up here in California, or Washington or Oregon or the other direction in your mind, because you're scouting really carefully. You're looking for stuff, all kinds of things. So you obviously you're scouting for pests that you know, but I'm guessing that you're scouting for insects, you don't know, what do you do? What would you recommend as a game plan? If I find something that's new, I don't want to get a toehold.

Kyle McAbee 11:39

Oh, yeah. Well, number one, if it's a new sighting of an invasive species, notifying the Ag Commissioner letting the you know making sure that USDA gets involved and making them aware of it, because a big part of it is it's a big picture. Program. So that's, that's number one. If you're one of the first people to find it, or if it's new to your area, if it's in your area, and it's new to your property or your your vineyard or whatever it may be looking at the States or the country, or countries that that that pest has come from and doing research and looking at what they've done looking at what they're doing there. Is there anything that they've done that is successful to mitigate that pest or deal with it? I think the spotted lantern fly is a good example. I don't think anybody knows exactly what to do with that. With that pest yet. I've obviously I don't have any direct connection with spotted lantern fly being you know, a PCA in California, however, I have done research on it, knowing that it unfortunately isn't inevitably likely to come to California, it's an invasive species from China, it was likely brought in over, you know, cargo ships and things like that. They're, they're very good movers, they lay their egg masses on semi trucks and, you know, see trains and just vehicles and they they can travel across the country that way. That's why I feel inevitably will likely be seeing some of this, you know, in the news or something. In the United States My understanding is it's you know, mostly focused on the East Coast. That's where it came in. I think Pennsylvania might have been first one I know New Jersey and Virginia, I think West Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, I think maybe even a couple others have had this issue. And it's a very, it's a very big problem. Not just for the vineyard, it is a problem for the vineyards. But it's a nuisance as well just you know, across communities. And if you have a tasting room next year, your vineyard they pretty good fliers, they're large insect, they're not afraid of humans so they can kind of swarm and just become an issue. But regarding vineyard pest control, they're very, very good feeders. They're aggressive feeders and they will suck a vine dry in in one one to two years and just take all the life out of the vines and that's that's the concern there. The other concern obviously with as goes most invasive species, we don't really have IPM program for them we don't we don't really know what to do we don't have products registered for them. We don't have spotted lantern fly for example written on really any labels that we can use and also bio control, you know, we that's part of an invasive species as well, but it likely didn't bring their you know, their predators with them, you know, their enemies. So I know they're doing work with the native bio control insects in that are in China. Currently, gypsy moth, I believe is one of them. And I believe they're doing some work with some different fungi and things like that. Yeah, I think one big thing to note that I've read is Tree of Heaven is is you know, obviously an invasive species as well from China. That's its host plant in China. So I know we've got it here. I've got areas I've been fighting, you know, Tree of Heaven for a while. So one of the biggest things other than looking for this insect is once it comes here, even now making sure you're controlling that Tree of Heaven, get rid of that stuff and not an easy one to take care of. But that's that's a big part of it, too.

Craig Macmillan 14:52

I live in the city of Paso Robles, and there's a little patch of it like right on the city limit on buying Street. It's spreading come into town. Like it's grown. It's grown up through sidewalks and stuff. And you know, as the biology pages look at, and you're like, oh my god, like, this is just a monster. I'm like, what are you gonna? Do? You know? But yeah, you're absolutely right as if you can identify those plants ahead of time and work on those. That's a great, great idea. Do you have any kind of plan? Not maybe not even for just spotted lantern fly, but let's say we get a report of something.

Kyle McAbee 15:28

Right? And that's how it's gonna happen. I mean, somebody's gonna find it somewhere. And then we're all gonna go, oh, man, what do we do? This is already part of my work anyway, is getting rid of the Tree of Heaven, trying to minimize any reason for that particular pest or other pests? You know, you got you just got to look at their hosts, I mean, their host plants, their host environment, where did they, you know, not just spotted lantern fly, but you know, other invasive species that we're looking at that are making their way into this country? And in figuring out what is their biology? What is their host environment or or plant or whatever it may be? If it it has shown up in other areas, you know, where did it come in, look at what the folks in, you know, country or other area that this invasive pest has come from? What do they do? What what products are they using? And what have they done to control it? Right? Maybe they haven't maybe it's such an aggressive problem. They haven't done it. I think number one, obviously is looking for it. For example, we get a report of spotted lantern fly, like you said in in Napa, or somewhere in California, then okay, well, it's probably here somewhere, just training your folks training your employees, you know, making sure your PCA and his his or her scouts are looking for these pests is important. And it found reporting it you know, not just to not just to the customer, you know, not just to the grower, it needs to be known on a state level or county level, you know, contacting the Ag Commissioner and asking them where, you know, what do we do with this information? Somebody needs to know about it, and making sure the USDA is aware of it. And in that way we they can kind of start tracking, you know, whatever insect it may be. But yeah, on a on a more micro level on on your own operation, looking at what products may be available to try to find it once you have it, looking at what the what they're doing and other maybe other states that have been fighting it for a while, what have they been successful with? And contacting, you know, farm advisors and talking to them about it, you know, Hey, have you guys figured out in the bio control? That's always a tough one. It's not just as simple as Okay, well, lantern fly in China, their main, you know, arch nemesis is the Gypsy Moth, well, let's just bring the Gypsy Moth over well, it's not that simple. Because there's, there's a lot of years of studies that have to go into that to make sure you're not gonna cause that insects. But looking at that, I mean, maybe that's already been done on whatever invasive species may come in, maybe that's already been figured out, and we have access to it. Who knows, you know,

Craig Macmillan 17:53

Or maybe we have an organism already here, that's similar enough that it can do something I think in terms of in terms of like predators, definitely, I think that's an option. And maybe we can do some augmentative biological control or something like that. It does sound like one of our best strategies might be to take cultural approaches initially, and just make it an unfriendly place. And then, and then kind of go from there. And like you said, see what other people have done and kind of go from there. I think that's the tricky thing, mealybug, all kinds of things, bugs and virus. We've learned a lot internationally in the last 10 years, which has been great that we've got folks working on this syndrome, variety of places we can learn from what they do, we're kind of running out of time, I want to ask you, though, in terms of sustainable pest control, and this can be fungi, this can be insect can be nematodes, it could be anything, what one piece of advice, or what one take home idea would you give to a grower if they say hey, I want to manage my vineyard in a sustainable fashion? How do I control my pests?

Kyle McAbee 18:55

Sustainability is, you know, very well correlated with IPM touched on cultural practices and things outside of, of chemical control, trapping, you know, looking looking at mating events, again, like you mentioned, making the environment unfriendly for whatever pest it may be, you know, scouting, making sure that you're aware of what is actually happening out there, what pests are out there, where they're at, in making sure something doesn't get out of control before you know it's there. Because it's really hard. Even on a you know, more aggressive, more conventional program, it's hard to reach back and knock down a population, it's much easier to to get them early on. Right? It just depends on what we're talking about when I say cultural control, looking at you know, hey, are there weeds that are causing the problem on the ground? Is it are you creating a secondary host or environment for X pests, right, keeping those things down and, you know, making sure you're not spreading them mechanically looking at you know, on a sustainable program, rotating different groups if you're on a conventional sustainable program if you're you know, if you're going for the organic products only or your organic certified then looking at those different bio insecticides or organic insecticides that are out there and what your options are, and making sure you're talking to people talking to people that have been doing it, talk to various people get multiple opinions. And one thing I've always heard about PCAs is talked to three, and you'll get three different opinions, which is good, though, because then you can kind of dig through it and see what the best options are, maybe use all three different ideas in in a rotational factor, you know, I've always been an advocate of, you know, communication with with each other. And we're all on this together. And, you know, making sure that we're all learning from one another and figuring out what worked for others and what didn't work for him, and so on and so forth.

Craig Macmillan 20:43

Yeah, exactly. And one thing I want to underline with what you just said is, you know, Scout Scout Scout monitor, monitor, monitor, record, record record, and then go back and look at those and look for those trends. And, and then the second thing being cultural, I think that's a really important idea is that if we can modify the environment, we can do a lot of good. And I think mites is a classic example mites and dust, so where can people find out more about you?

Kyle McAbee 21:06

Honestly, the best way to get a hold of me is either email or phone. I, I'm not very present on social media, with my business. I do have a Facebook, it's, you know, McAbee Ag Consulting. But that said, I think the best way to get a hold of me would be either to call me text me or email me, and I can give you that information.

Craig Macmillan 21:25

And we can put that information in the show notes, folks will be able to find you. This has been great. Thanks so much. I guess today it was Kyle McAbee. He is president of McAbee Ag Consulting, and He is a licensed pest control advisor and certified crop advisor with the sustainability specialization. Thanks so much, Kyle. This has really been a joy. I'm really, really glad you were here.

Kyle McAbee 21:45

Yeah, thank you, Craig. Appreciate it.

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We know our SIP Certified members are generous donors in the community. Last week, we shared the exciting news about the expansion of our Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship. In the same spirit of giving back, this week, we want to acknowledge some of the ways SIP Certified brands give back.

Get ready for a feel-good episode about generous brands in the wine industry. And get inspired about ways that you can give back.

Vina Robles' the Arborist Did you know that planting a tree can be as easy as enjoying a bottle of wine? It can be when you buy a bottle of Vina Robles’ the Arborist!

Vina Robles partners with non-profit environmental conservation organizations to plant trees with a portion of the proceeds from every bottle of the Arborist that is sold. Since the program started in the year 2000, nearly 33,000 trees have been planted.

When you purchase a bottle of the Arborist, you are joining them in supporting this great cause.

Two Funds by Talley Vineyards Talley Vineyards has two charitable funds that benefit SLO County agriculture workers and students of Arroyo Grande High School.

The first to be established by the Talleys was the Fund for Vineyard and Farmworkers, created in 2004. This fund supports the Farm Worker Community in San Luis Obispo County by awarding grants to local nonprofit organizations that serve agriculture workers and their families.

Talley also supports the youth of the community through the Marianne Talley Foundation, named in honor of Brian Talley’s sister who passed away in 1993. This is a scholarship fund that supports the children of farm workers who attend Arroyo Grande High School with scholarships to support their pursuit of higher education.

Niner Wine Estate's Buck-a-Bottle November is Buck-a-Bottle month for Niner Wine Estates. Every year, they donate $1 to a local charity fund for every bottle that is sold in their tasting room and online during the month of November.

Their 2022 fundraiser generously benefited Vineyard Team's Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship. Niner Wine Estates has been supporting the scholarship for years and has hosted the past few annual Scholarship Recipient Award Ceremonies at the Vineyard Team Member BBQ, where scholarship recipients, their families, and Vineyard Team members get together to enjoy great company, wine, and a meal crafted with fresh ingredients from Chef's Garden.

Thank you, Niner Wine Estates, for helping children of vineyard and winery workers achieve their dreams of higher education through your support of the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship!

Sustainable funding for education opportunities If you missed our past Marketing Tip Monday, the Vineyard Team’s Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship is our way of giving back to the community and contributing to a prosperous future of educated and determined professionals. This funding supports students and their families in achieving their dreams of successful graduation to pursue a professional career. The majority of awardees are first-generation college students, who have more barriers when it comes to attaining higher education.

This isn’t designed to be a one-time award. Starting in 2023, we will award two- and four-year scholarships, complete with a graduation bonus to help them launch into the next phase of life. The total will end up being in the range of $6k to $20k per student. We’ve also invested in a program mentor, Alex Gonzalez, who will be a resource to the students. This upgraded scholarship is possible because the local non-profit, Must! Charities, recognized the importance of this program and has created a matching funds program for us.

You can help the program flourish To receive the gifted money from Must! Charities, we need to raise matching funds each year. In the true spirit of sustainability, we want to create a program that has long-lasting funds so that we can continue to better the lives of our industry's children for decades.

Use the link in the show notes to make a donation to the program, and share this podcast with those you think could benefit from learning more about the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship.

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes for links to the scholarship flyers, paycheck inserts, application, to donate, to read stories from our incredible scholars and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Apply for the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship * Donate to the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship * Fund for Vineyard and Farmworkers – Talley Vineyards * Scholar Stories * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Niner Wine Estates * SIP Certified * The Marianne Talley Foundation * Vina Robles’ the Arborist * Vineyard Team

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Did you know that standard wine packaging, including the bottle and the process, is 42% of the wine’s total carbon footprint? That statistic is exactly what inspires Erica Landin-Lofving, Chief Sustainability Officer at Vintage Wine Estates to explore alternative packaging. Lightweight bottling positively impacts the full circle sustainability of wine from saving money on glass and transportation to the quality of work for the people lifting cases to less wear and tear on equipment. Erica covers challenges and solutions related to all types of alternative packaging (wine in a bag, wine in a box tetra pak, lightweight glass) including choosing the best packaging for your brand, quality signaling, getting leadership to buy in, what changes will be most sustainable, and educating consumers.

References: * 171: How to Farm Wine Grapes for Climate Change * Alloy Wine Works * How Climate Changes will Change the Wine Climate * Is Wine in Cans Your New Favorite Format? * SIP Certified * The Changing Landscape Of Sustainability (Video) * Vineyard Team – Become a Member * Vintage Wine Estates * What does a sustainable water strategy look like in the wine industry? * Why is sustainability now not a choice but a necessity? What does it mean for wine businesses?

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

My guest today is Erica Lofving. She is Chief Sustainability Officer with Vintage Wine Estates. And we're going to talk about sustainable wine packaging today. Welcome to the podcast. Erica.

Erica Landin-Lofving 0:09

Thank you happy to be here.

Craig Macmillan 0:10

You have done a lot of work on sustainable packaging. It's obviously an area that not only you're interested to, but there's a major component to the work that you do with with Vintage Wine Estate. How did you get into it? What is your interest? What kinds of things you've worked on recently?

Erica Landin-Lofving 0:24

Well, I first got into sustainable packaging, maybe six, seven years. Back when I was still living in Sweden, I'm Swedish. I was consulting for the Swedish wine monopolies, Systembolaget. They are possibly the biggest buyer of wine in the world. And they have sustainability as a core issue. And they started lifting the packaging, and did lifecycle analysis together with the other Scandinavian monopolies and saw that packaging bottling and the process of doing it was up to 42% of the total carbon footprint of a wine, which is huge. Of course, they started focusing on on that because of course being big buyers, they can require changes in packaging of their buyers. So they launched projects on lightweighting bottles and alternative packaging, which they are still very strong and probably leading in the world. So that's that's when I got interested at that time, there was almost no discussion about packaging as part of sustainability and wine. We talked vineyards, vineyards, vineyards, maybe a little bit of winemaking, but packaging got ignored most of the sustainability certifications around the world don't even mention packaging, or didn't at least at that time. Actually, that was my project for the monopoly. I went through basically all the sustainability certifications around the world. Comlpex job. Let me tell you that.

Craig Macmillan 1:39

Yeah, I guess.

Erica Landin-Lofving 1:41

So of course, when I started at Vintage, I, you know, packaging was one of my key topics that I want to bring up. It was also really interesting to see we did a survey last year when we set our strategy I've been with Vintage for a year and a half. So one of my first things was to start collecting the information called a materiality analysis, basically pinpointing which areas are key sustainability areas. And as part of that, we did a survey in house and a lot of our staff were also interested in packaging, primary secondary packaging, and then of course, the waste of incoming packaging. So that that became one of our core core topics, and a very exciting one to be to be working on.

Craig Macmillan 2:22

For those of us who don't know what to what kind of companies of Vintage Wine Estates, what do they do?

Erica Landin-Lofving 2:28

Oh, yeah, Vintage Wine Estaes is a group we own 13 wineries, I believe and have 50 brands on top. Plus we do contract production for for external brands. We went public. Last June, June 20. June 22. It or is it 20 this year?

Craig Macmillan 2:47

Yeah. Oh, that's right. No, that's right. No, I do. Yeah. That was kind of a big deal.

Erica Landin-Lofving 2:53

It was a big deal. There aren't. Yeah, there aren't that many public public companies. So year and a half ago, we went public. Yeah, I know. That was that was part of the goal of of Pat Roney, our founder was to build a company to take public so that was definitely a big deal for the company. And we're continuing to grow. A lot of our brands, we will buy grapes, we buy juice, we even buy finished wines. So packaging is one of the sustainability aspects we can control there. For me, there's there's two big aspects to to packaging, of course, that the wine bottle is bigger than any of the other packaging considerations. The one that I'm most attached to is lightweighting. of glass, find alternative packaging is interesting. And so in Sweden, I think it's 56% of the wine sold by volume is in bag in box. But they are also big buyers of Tetra Pack, PET bottles, cans, wine and cans, and it becomes an interesting market to watch. I'm not completely positive to all the alternative packagings and we can we can get into that if they do have a much lower carbon footprint. But there are other considerations. I cans I am some fairly positive too. But let's dive into that separately. But I'm still a firm believer that the glass wine bottle is going to be our key wine packaging for the foreseeable future. However, this attachment that consumers and therefore producers have to heavy bottle being a signifier of quality of the wine, we've got to let that go. That is that got outdated when we set the Paris, Paris climate goals like that's it has nothing to do with the quality of the wine. This is part of the message that is finally slowly catching hold. And it's gone a lot further in Europe professionally in Scandinavia than it has in the US still, but I believe that we're heading that direction. I've started seeing articles on the negative aspects of a heavyweight bottle in New York Times ,Wall Street Journal,Wine Enthusiast and when that starts coming, it's like we're starting to get that message into the mainstream. It is going to bring change. Fancy wine wants to be sold in a heavy bottle still,

Craig Macmillan 4:59

Based on On that basis, we're now getting national non wine press paying attention to this a little bit. Do you think there might be a groundswell of public interest attitude belief that might put some pressure on wineries to reduce their glass weight to go to a lighter weight package?

Erica Landin-Lofving 5:15

I believe so I believe we're in the early days of it still, I think the people that we're going to reach first are the wine connoisseurs that read those newspapers, magazines, and want to be part of early adopters who want to show that they know something, as well as the millennial consumer who is not as concerned with tradition, and is very concerned with environmental aspects and more knowledgeable in general on on environmental impact. I think those are the two groups that will start making the change from two directions.

Craig Macmillan 5:45

Now, do you think that there is a curve of this behavior that's related to price, so somebody's going to buy a $100 bottle of wine in a traditional dead leaf green Berg bottle as opposed to a big heavy deep punt? You know, I've been doing some analysis, you can have a bottle that's say 400 grams, or you can have a bottle of over 1000 grams big difference? Am I going to pay the same for 400? As opposed to 1000? Do you think?

Erica Landin-Lofving 6:12

I think you will, when you understand why I mean for 400 is still an extremely lightweight bottle. 420 grams is kind of what the international wine industry has set as the limit for true lightweight bottle in the US. I know a lot of producers who speak about eco weight or lightweight and they mean 470 to 490 grams, I've started speaking in terms of true lightweight as something under 420. Those bottles do feel quite light, I think they will be their shoo ins for anything under $20. But I think for for these $100 bottles, moving them from the 900 Gram 32 ounce massive pieces down to more normal weight, like 500 500 grams, we should be able to do that. And again, this is where we're New York Times and Wall Street Journal's writing matters the most because they reach that consumer, when the first adopters there, start understanding this, they might react negatively to one of those super heavy bottles. I do now. I mean, this has been something I've been I've been looking at for a long time. But now if I lift a bottle and it's a 900 gram bottle, I just say like, seriously, why? Why would I want to buy this? Also, why would I want to drag this home and then drag it to recycling?

Craig Macmillan 7:24

Well, I think that you're absolutely right, that once we get below about a $20 retail price point, the lightweighting seems to be kind of a no brainer. As we push up. Hopefully that message will get out I think from a sustainability standpoint. But I also do wonder how far that can kind of go. Right. I remember, this is how old I am. I remember when very expensive Napa Cabernets came in a straight sided forest green Bordeaux bottle with a just a big square paper label on it and a very cheap foil. Now I don't think I could get $100 for that package. Even there's been a lot of work that's been done. And if I understand it correctly, this is you know, social psych stuff. If you give a consumer two bottles, one's heavy one's lighter, you say this is the same product even? Which what will you pay? Their willingness to pay is higher for the heavier package? Yeah, if that's true, right. That's a tough psychology to ignore.

Erica Landin-Lofving 8:20

That's a tough psychology to ignore.

Craig Macmillan 8:22

So some of it, I think, is consumer level. But I'd also like to hear a little bit on what's going on behind the scenes on the production side, what kinds of conversations ideas, potential is there because it seems like there might be some work to do there on the marketing side. But there's some work to do. Maybe behind the scenes side.

Erica Landin-Lofving 8:36

We'll just say that imagine that they were doing this test again. But that the test subjects had been given an article to read that said that the environmental impact of the bottle was the biggest contributor to the carbon footprint of the wine, how many of them their mind, and that's what I believe is the key. I think as long as the consumer does not know this difference, we will see a preference for the heavier bottles, the more that information disseminates into the marketplace, the more impact it will have. I will also say that so behind the scenes, one of the calculations that I'm doing is that I have a much bigger impact taking a SKU that has 300,000 case production and moving it from 500 grams to 400 grams. Then I do taking a SKU that's in a seven 750 gram bottle and moving it to 400 grams, but the production is only 1000 cases or even even less. So for that reason, my focus and our internal discussions center around the big volume wines. That said there there are bigger volume wines that come in those super heavy bottles. I For me, it's the super heavy bottles. We've got to watch out there because while I would like to make the move purely from a sustainability perspective, there is the marketing risk, but there's also a risk of not making the change. because I'll just tell you when I was in Sweden last time now Sweeden, as I said, much further along than the US market when it comes to consumer understanding of sustainability and an interest in sustainability. I went into the store and I was asking for advice on something cool and something high end. And the guy picked out two bottles, and he said, Oh, this one is great. This is Niepoort I, you know, I love this wine. 10 years of age for selling it aged, which is, you know, not always easy to find in a store. He said, but you might not want it. It's a super heavy bottle. And I said, Oh, why do you think I might not want it now? The sustainability impact is is pretty big. I don't know. I've had people hesitate. I was like, wow. They advised me away from a really cool wine because it's an a heavy bottle. And and I liked that. I know that I know that Jancis Robinson, for example, called out Joe Wryneck iIn South Africa, great producer, amazing wines, and definitely a sustainability champion. And this was a couple of years ago, you know, in in her magazine, she said you can't have accountability, profiling, make these beautiful wines, and put them in a super heavy bottle, if the message doesn't add up. And again, the more we get that, the more you're going to have high end consumers turn away from these bottles and be like, nope, gotta gotta change that.

Craig Macmillan 11:19

Maybe we're getting groundswell on both sides. Now, I want to get technical, I've done some of this work myself and feel like I have failed miserably. Probably not entirely true. But tell me about your methodology when you're looking at this with glass and you're trying to get a carbon footprint sense, because what I'm guessing when you're telling me what you're doing is you want to come back to management ownership and say, Hey, this is how much reduction we have in ourCO2 equivalent. Is that fair is that by alright?

Erica Landin-Lofving 11:46

Let's be completely fair, the the message to leadership is, this is how much we're saving on glass. And this is the sustainability messaging we can attach to it. But you know, the savings, CO2 reduction, for a lightweight bottle will almost always come at a lower price point. For us. One of the challenges has been finding really nice quality molds with perfect stability and stability. I don't mean to make the wine stable. I mean, we have some high speed bottling lines, we don't want it to crush in the bottling line, or we're losing speed. So finding these really nice looking molds, making sure that they're not shorter and smaller, we had a launch with 100 gram bottle on the on the Canadian market, it was shorter. We did not want to bring that to the to the US market.

Craig Macmillan 12:29

Well, why not? Oh,

Erica Landin-Lofving 12:30

The funny thing is you, you get a surprising number of people writing in saying, Hey, you're cheating me out of wine, I see this bottomless is smaller than a regular wine bottle. Right?

Craig Macmillan 12:40

Right. Yeah.

Erica Landin-Lofving 12:42

Especially the amount of it just didn't look looked nice on the shelf. But it makes me makes me laugh. And it makes me also understand the the millions of packaging said had that say this, you know, this package was full at the transport and items might have settled or things like that, because I understand that those companies were getting callbacks, saying, Hey, you're cheating me out of product. It still needs to look nice, then you have the calculation on saving on glass cost. But then you also get the calculations on saving in other parts of the production, which include transportation, because if you do have your bottles, a lot of our trucks aren't physically full, they are at their weight capacity, you lower the wine bottle weight, and you can load that truck to capacity before before hitting the weight limit. That's a saving right there. It's also an additional carbon carbon saving that I might not calculate. I would love it if I sat on all the data to do that. But I know that there is a gain there. But also things like throughout the supply chain, when you have people handling it, it's better for the for the people, it's better for the people who are lifting those cases. And if that's our crew, or if it is if it is the crew in the store or or logistics company, there's less wear and tear on people. I would personally if I was working in a wine store rather restock shelves with with the lightweight bottles or lighter weight bottles and those super heavy ones.

Craig Macmillan 14:05

Part of my job is I work in the tasting room. And it's amazing as a server, you know what a huge difference it makes, just carrying stuff from place to place and you can't tell whether something's full or not because of the weight of the glass is darn close to the weight of the wine, you know, it's drinking sense. So yes, absolutely. We do need to take that into account. There's wear and tear on people and there's efficiency questions. I think the mechanization question is a good one depending on which direction you're gonna go, what kind of molds you have and how fast you're trying to do it.

Erica Landin-Lofving 14:35

The super heavy mold so we're talking like the 32 ounce mold that's also wear and tear on equipment and extra energy for the for the forklifts and trucks transporting it around. I'm not at the level where I'm doing calculations on that but definitely in the bottling line running a 32 ounce bottle this is going to be rough around the mechanics. And again, lifting it with a forklift is going to take more energy I mean In basic physics, you might not know the exact gain from a lighter weight bottle. But there's definitely gains throughout.

Craig Macmillan 15:07

You mentioned it before. And this is a really interesting question because there's a winery that I'm familiar with, that's in the oh, golly, 25 to $75 retail range with their products at least. And they just brought out a bag and box product.

Erica Landin-Lofving 15:22

Tablets Creek?

Craig Macmillan 15:23

Maybe.

Erica Landin-Lofving 15:26

I love those guys. I really...

Craig Macmillan 15:30

I think we can leave that in the podcast, can't we?

Erica Landin-Lofving 15:34

It was a was three liter.

Craig Macmillan 15:36

I'm sorry, yes, three litre, and was a customer who brought this to me because we were talking about these issues. And they said, hey, you know, I just saw this product. Maybe I'm not gonna put super high end wines, really expensive wines. I mean, I don't want to have a $400 box product and then say, okay, you gotta drink all four bottles necessarily. But how many future do you think there is for that, or one liter turbo pack packaging and that kind of thing.

Erica Landin-Lofving 15:57

With those alternativepackagings, I'll just list the ones that I would look at. One is Tetra Pak, usually one liter, can be 77, or 750 milliliters to the PT plastic bottle, which is very often same size as a regular wine bottle. Aluminum can which can be between 25 centimeters and 33 centimeters. Generally, you have the wine pouch, which is the one and a half liter and the wine pouch is more or less like the inside of bag and box, it's usually a little bit thicker. And then you have the bag and box, which is generally three liters. I've seen two liters, frequently as well, the bag and box. As I said, it's 56% or more of the Swedish market by volume. It's popular as well in places like Norway, Finland, partially because it brings down the price of wine a little bit, but it's also growing a lot in France, supermarket sales.

Craig Macmillan 16:48

What kind of price points are we talking here? I know that I know. We're talking about years and things.

Unknown Speaker 16:53

Yeah, so I would say for three liter box, which is the equivalent of four bottles, I would say most of them lasted between 20 and $40. So at $40 because you have a lower packaging cost, lower lower handling cost, so on. So at $40 It's not a $10 bottle of wine. It's a $15 bottle of wine. I mean, it's not high end high end, but it's not bad wine either. What Tablas did launching $100 $100 box, so $25 a bottle. That was that was unusual, and it was a great PR thing and it got got people talking, I don't believe we're going to see mass market boxes in that price range. But I definitely think that there should be more 30 $40 boxes. There's one advantage of the bag in box, which is of course it's really just take one glass, it's also really easy to take three glasses not notice that you're taking three glasses every night. So you know, two sides, two sides to that. But it's a it's a pretty convenient format. And it's gone from being something that people hide in Sweden to something that you actually you know, you have people over for dinner, you put it out, maybe you poured into craft to make it look nicer. But it's it's not something that the mainstream consumer hides anymore. Maybe the wine geeks still shy away from it. Carbon footprint of wine in pouch or wine in bag and box is once we say it's it's less than a fourth of a lightweight bottle per liter equivalent.

Craig Macmillan 18:19

Wow. And huge.

Less than 1/6 of a traditional glass bottle at 540 grams.

Wow.

Erica Landin-Lofving 18:27

So yeah, it's big

Craig Macmillan 18:29

That's very attractive.

Erica Landin-Lofving 18:31

So let me tell you what I don't like about t.

Craig Macmillan 18:32

Yes, please do.

Erica Landin-Lofving 18:34

And honestly for you know, for your general consumer who consumes their wine within days or a week of buying it and who buys at the $15 price point. Sure. Go for the box. What I don't like about it is plastic recycling in the US is still pretty limited. So that pouch does not necessarily get recycled, which means plastic production and landfill. Don't love that. And then of course, most of the plastic pouches have a petroleum base. So fossil fossil base, you can you can weigh that against the carbon footprint and see what what it's important to you. The other thing is when I worked as a wine writer, many years back since we had so many quality wines and seven saying like 15 $20 wines in both box and bottle, maybe not $20 wines but let's say $15 We would as journalists, we would sometimes go and we would buy the same wine in bottle and the same by wine in box and make a comparison and 80% of the wines tasted tasted a little bit better in bottle 20% of the wines tasted better in the box and they were usually the ones who would have in the bottle needed a little bit age a little bit less sulfur or somehow just breathe more. Because it's not inert. That pouch is not inert. While the Swedish monopoly says it has says six month in six months there's no problem with a with a bag and box. I would like to do taste tests on. I think maybe what they're checking that acid and sulfur levels and VA and things like that aren't actually changing. But I do believe that there are some sensory changes over time.

Craig Macmillan 20:12

Interesting. What about cans.

Erica Landin-Lofving 20:13

Oooh I like cans.

Craig Macmillan 20:15

Aluminum is very attractive from recycling standpoint, it's one of the one thing that we seem to be able to do fairly well out in the US compared to plastic of things.

Unknown Speaker 20:23

I'll call out the US. So let's just say that glass recycling percentage in Scandinavia is 98 to 99%. In the US, the recycling rate is 31.1% for glass and in California and step up towards 60 beer and soft drink cans. So that's where we can classify wine cans to the recycling rate. It's actually 50. A little bit over 50% In the US, so isn't terrible. It's still almost half of Scandinavia, which is again 98%. But let's just say it's, it's not it's not terrible. So yes, it's decently easy to recycle. The carbon footprint is about twice that of a pouch or bag and box, but still, then less than half way less than half of lightweight glass bottle and about a third, a little less than a third of a standard weight bottle. So, so good. I liked the format. I can't I can't help it. I'm, I'm a bonafide wine geek. I drink the fun stuff. I like that. It's a small, small package. I like that it's very easy to transport. It is inert. It does have that little tiny plastic lining sometimes but I just think you can play with it. You can put fun wines in it if it doesn't suit all wines. And not all wines are good drinking from the county there. But I think it's a great packaging, especially for newer consumers, millennial consumers who aren't so stuffy about how things are supposed to be done. But you know, rosacea, white wines, orange wines, sparkling wines, lighter quaffable reds, and some fun packaging to go with it. Say like, why not? I like it. We we have one we have Alloy Alloy comes in cans. And we've done some specially can projects for festivals. But isn't it a nice format. I mean, if you're going to go to a festival or a picnic, and you're drinking out of plastic glass anyway, so you might as well just bring a can. I think it's a way for the wine industry to also tap into all those people that are drinking spiked kombucha and hard ciders and who are you know, necessarily dragging my bottle around.

Craig Macmillan 22:32

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was a long time ago. But I forget the name of the product. There was an Australian product that came out and it was in a half size can. And you see sodas occasionally in this like smaller can. And I thought it was really interesting. And then I met an Australian winemaker who was visiting. And I asked him about it. And if he was familiar, he was oh, yeah, absolutely. Everybody loves those things are everywhere. It was like really knows, yeah, you don't need to take the thing. You dump it in your cooler and you put a bunch of ice over it. And anyway to the barbecue you are set. It's easy. It's great.

Erica Landin-Lofving 23:01

I do think a key thing is putting in like quality stuff.

Craig Macmillan 23:04

That's the question then is what's the quality level that we can kind of get to.

Erica Landin-Lofving 23:08

I think like a sweet spot a 10. A $10 canister is nice. Like don't make it the crap wines I want I want a little bit better quality and a little more fun ones and actually suitable to natural wines, natural wines to both from a style stylistic perspective. And also because you have to reduce your you can't add as much sulfur to to a canned wine or it becomes productive. So you have to adjust your..

Craig Macmillan 23:32

Yeah, we we keep coming back to millennials. And so I kind of want to wrap wrap this up on this topic. Again, based on your experience, your view, you obviously are on top of this, because you mentioned it several times. How much of a difference is there generally generationally in interest, and maybe even willingness to pay just the sustainability topic? For folks. It sounds like Millennials are much more interested in do more research on this than maybe the folks that from later or earlier generations. You see that continuing?

Erica Landin-Lofving 24:10

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's with with younger generations, and I mean, I'm on the cusp of that myself. There's definitely more interest. And they are better at calling out BS too. They might, you know, they're not going to dig into every every number, but they they want a credible story and they want sustainability to be part of the story that you are telling about your wine. And yeah, I mean, they it's definitely one of the things that makes me hopeful is the more consumers is that we have a problem reaching them as one consumers but if we can pull them into the fold, one way of pulling them into the fold of wine lovers is actually To, to show this connection to the earth that we have in wine, I mean are seriously our product is so much more natural than a lot of the stuff that sold us, you know, no additives, no super sustainable, no carbon footprint, whatever they're selling it as it's still like a manufactured product in a, in a more synthetic way we have a direct connection to land, I think we need to communicate that to them. And part of that communication needs to it needs to consider sustainability that we are stewards of our land.

Craig Macmillan 25:29

So maybe just to editorialize for a second maybe not only on an individual level to individual wine companies, but maybe it's an industry wide, we need to do a better a better job messaging sustainability, and communicating to the consumer, especially apparently the millennial, what we're about what we do in in some of what our kind of standard practices are I you know, I mean, I remember when I first started farming years and years and years ago, the idea of cover crops was a little bit iffy. And I had one friend of mine, and he tried it, he says, you know, I'm farming two crops, I can barely farm one crop, and I'm farming two now, minimum and many years later. It's everywhere you just, of course you do you know, why wouldn't you? You know that so those changes there. Now it's a practice that I think it's an important practice that if people realize what's involved and why people do it, I think it could be very, very beneficial. Kind of wrapping up what one piece of advice or message or idea would you like to communicate to, let's say, winery owner or management or whatever on this topic, what's the one piece of like advice that you would have?

Erica Landin-Lofving 26:30

Well, I guess we've spent the last half hour talking about it, but it is definitely to consider the full scope of your packaging as part of your core sustainability work. Lift your eyes from just the Vinyard. It's super important, but include the winery and definitely include packaging, primary and secondary packaging and see what you can improve. Start asking questions, start asking your suppliers for information, ask your glass producer, what their coolest content is the recycled content, just start getting an understanding of what sustainable wine packaging is and how you can implement it and start communicating it to your customers, the more of us that tell the customer that these super heavyweight bottles are actually not an environmentally beneficial way of selling wine, the quicker the consumer is going to catch that and you know, what if you don't care at all about the environmental footprint, care about your your costs of goods, and help the rest of us get that message.

Craig Macmillan 27:24

Because one of the E's is economy economics, right? And that's part of the picture and controlling my costs is huge. Where can people find out more about you?

Erica Landin-Lofving 27:33

Oh, geez, I was to say I'm all over the internet. I've been a writer on other podcasts and speaking probably Google my name I there's not that many Erica Lofving spelled LOFVING in wine out there. My name is we Landin. So half of my articles are in Swedish. But you can you could probably find out online and feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn if you want to have a dialogue about anything.

Craig Macmillan 27:58

Fantastic. Wonderful. Our guest today has been Erica laughing. She's Chief Sustainability Officer with Vintage Wine Estates. Thank you for being the guest today. It's been a really fascinating conversation. And I look forward to talk to you again. Let's meet you in person at some point.

Erica Landin-Lofving 28:11

Thanks for having a good podcast. I always enjoy listening to the people. You're interviewing so much knowledge out in the wine industry.

Craig Macmillan 28:18

There really is. There's just a lot of richness and that's one thing that I love about doing this is meeting people like yourself and hearing perspectives and information I never otherwise would have gotten.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Of the 3 Ps of Sustainability (People, Planet, and Prosperity), People is no doubt the most important one. Without the supporters, partners, and cherished friends in our community, who would be here to enjoy the prosperous planet we are all striving toward?

This week's Marketing Tip is a bit different than previous tips. We want to share how the parent non-profit organization of the SIP Certified program, Vineyard Team, helps children of vineyard and winery workers achieve their dreams of higher education. Applications for the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarshipare open through March 31st, 2023. If you work in California's wine industry, you probably know several people who are eligible to apply for the scholarship!

Investing in future generations Vineyard Team’s Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship is our way of giving back to the community and contributing to a prosperous future of educated and determined professionals. This funding supports students and their families in achieving their dreams of successful graduation to pursue a professional career. The majority of awardees are first-generation college students, who have more barriers when it comes to attaining higher education.

This isn’t designed to be a one-time award. Starting in 2023 we will award two- and four-year scholarships, complete with a graduation bonus to help them launch into the next phase of life. The total will end up being in the range of $6k to $20k per student. We’ve also invested in a program mentor, Alex Gonzalez, who will be a resource to the students. This upgraded scholarship is possible because of the local non-profit Must! Charities recognized the importance of this program and have created a matching funds program for us.

Share this scholarship opportunity! Applications for the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship are open March 1st – 31st. Please share this opportunity with your team by posting and electronically sharing the flyer (available in English and Spanish), and sharing the paycheck inserts with your payroll facilitator so they can reach the families of your operation’s workers/employees -- who are likely eligible for this opportunity!

Use the link in the show notes to make a donation to the program, and share this podcast with those you think could benefit from learning more about the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship.

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes for links to the scholarship flyers, paycheck inserts, application, to donate, to read stories from our incredible scholars, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter.

Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Apply for the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship * Donate to the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship Pintables + Flyer (English & Spanish) + Paycheck Insert (English) + Paycheck Insert (Spanish) * Scholar Stories * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team

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Amid extreme weather events, many grape growers ask themselves what they can do to adapt their vineyard for climate change. Chris Chen, Integrated Vineyard Systems Advisor in Sonoma, Mendocino, and Lake Counties at the University of California Cooperative Extension is exploring solutions to this question. Mediterranean climates like California, with hot and dry summers and cold wet winters, are particularly sensitive. Researchers expect temperature maximums will be higher and the minims will be lower in years to come. Chris explains a few tactics growers can use to continue farming successfully amid climate changes including rootstocks, canopy management, new scions, and most importantly trialing.

References:
REGISTER: 3/10/23 Canopy Management: Trellising, Sunburn, & Mechanization Tailgate Meeting | Paso Robles, CA
67: Impacts of Climate Change on Wine Production
A New World of Wine: How the Viticultural Map is Changing | Greg Jones | International Masters of Wine Symposium (Video)
Andy Walker, Emeritus Louise Rossi Endowed Chair in Viticulture and Enology
Chen Lab
Chris Chen Twitter
Climate, Grapes, and Wine | Greg Jones | TEDx Roseburg (Video)
Out of Sync: Vine Responses to Changing Conditions
SIP Certified
UCCE North Coast Viticulture
UCCE Sonoma County Viticulture
UCCE Viticulture Newsletters Online - North Coast
Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

My guest today is Chris Chen. He's integrated vineyard systems advisor for Sonoma Mendocino and Lake counties with the University of California Cooperative Extension. And I think we're gonna have a very interesting conversation today, Chris has done some pretty interesting work and some pretty interesting ideas. So welcome to the podcast, Chris.

Chris Chen 0:14

Thanks, Craig. Appreciate it. Looking forward to it.

Craig Macmillan 0:16

Doing a little bit of background on you. Would you say that there's a particular thread or what the thread is that runs through your research and extension work? Because it seems like there is one to me.

Chris Chen 0:25

A lot of my work is focused on adaptation to climate change and vineyards. And it's something that goes back to when I was in grad school, you know, the, the whole climate change thing became really big and something to focus on when I entered grad school. And as I went through grad school, it became what I did. The thread here is kind of how do we adapt viticulture, to changing climates? How do we predict what a climate today is going to be in 510 years, the thread is to see how can we adapt to these changing conditions, and still keep viticulture, thriving and successful.

Craig Macmillan 0:57

What is the prediction right now, in terms of let's start with California, but we can talk about the West Coast, we can also talk about New York, and we can talk about Europe. But you work in California, what is the current picture in terms of long term climate change that might affect grapes?

Unknown Speaker 1:15

It's not really easy to say this will happen that will happen. But what we expect to see in California, it's a Mediterranean climate right now, these are very sensitive climate types, typically classified as regions with really hot, dry summers, cold, wet winters, right. And they're kind of fringe ecosystems, fringe climates. So they're on the border of, of an inland climate in a coastal climate, that means they're the most sensitive to climate change. So what we're expecting to see in California, and what a lot of researchers, climate researchers are planning on is, you know, increased temperatures, the maximums are going to be higher, the minimums are going to be lower, and those swings are going to be more drastic in between. So the diurnal temperature shift is going to be huge. You know, that is something that everyone kind of expects with climate change. It gets hotter, it gets colder, the extremes are more extreme, but what we're not really sure about is how precipitation is going to change. And in California, rainfall is such a huge thing. It's variable year to year, we have droughts for three years at a time and then one relief year, what we're really confused about is how is the rain pattern gonna change where we are today are we going to get the same rainfall and we're going to be able to support viticulture here anymore?

Craig Macmillan 2:33

Now that brings up an interesting question. I'm going to bring up Andy Walker here, Dr. Andy Walker, the very famous plant breeder and I attended a seminar that he did on rootstocks, which he's done a ton of work and many rootstocks are out as a result of his lab. And he started off the whole thing by saying, you can dry farm winegrapes anywhere in the world. And the room just went silent, like I don't think anybody was breathing. And then he says, Now you might get two clusters, providing but the plant itself is going to do what it does. It's an amazing plant. It's incredible. And then he went on and talked about being in the Andes and seeing things in different parts of the world. And I found that really inspiring because when we talk about what we're doing right now, water, obviously is probably the biggest knob. If you have all these knobs, you can twist fertilizer, whatever water is probably the biggest one. Yeah, California, you have done some work with a number of people, but also with Kaan Kutural who I love on drought tolerance, drought resistance, I would say and what kinds of things? Are you finding out what you mean? Where is it kind of leading you? Where is it? What's kind of the thought process?

Chris Chen 3:38

Andy, he was also my doctoral advisor. So I've heard his Spiel once or twice about dry farming. You know, you can do that can grow grapes in most almost all places without water there. There are grapes on islands that are irrigated with fog drip, so it's possible, but he's also right in saying that you're not going to get the yields that make you profitable. So that's concerning. And what we want to avoid, because we still need a certain tonnes per acre to reach profit margin that matters in terms of what can we do and how we're going for drought adaptation. There's the old approach of using rootstocks. And it's a very useful approach, right, these rootstocks from Andy Walker's perspective, and if you're looking at it from his lens, they have different rooting patterns. They have different water demands, and that translates to what we're growing on top. Whether it's Cab, Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, whatever you want to grow on top of it, it's going to be impacted by what it's grafted to that is actually a very reasonable strategy to address drought that has its limits, you know, you still need water to grow grapes. Almost all grape vines in the wild, are only found near perennial water sources. So it's not like we can get rid of water altogether. We can't just leave them alone and expect to have any crop on them. But there's other things we can do. One of the huge management strategies that we can look at is canopy management. So canopy management in vineyards have really impacts how much water transpires and how much water evaporates from the surface of the soil. With a bigger canopy, you get less evaporation. But you also get more transpiration because there's more leaves, right. And vice versa. If you have a small canopy, you have the opposite problem that actually really impacts your fruit, your crop load, you know the quality of your fruit, the characteristics of the berries. So it's not something that everybody's going to play around with, because they want us to in the end, they want a certain kind of fruit with certain characteristics for their winery. But canopy management is a huge one as well, as rootstocks, there's also the interest in precision agriculture. So there is the spoon feeding approach where instead of irrigating large quantities at once, we can irrigate small portions at a time.

Craig Macmillan 5:43

Irrigate strategicly. I mean, I've seen some pretty interesting work from the past where it was like a 10, Vine irrigation block. And you were able to control this and that little bit in that little bit. And you could use NDVI to figure out where you want to do it. Interesting work. I'd never was convinced how practical that might be for most growers, especially if you're retrofitting their orchards.

Chris Chen 6:05

In Australia that irrigate on a tree to tree basis. So it's very doable. You know, the question is, how much water would you actually save doing that? And how much energy are you using to pump that every time?

Craig Macmillan 6:18

Exactly. Now, we're talking about rootstocks rootstock breeding back in the day, 100 years ago, or whenever it was all about phylloxera. And it was about salt. I know that Dr. Walker has done a lot of work on salt resistance. n=Nematode resistance is turned out to be a big one. If I remember that's the GRM series are specifically for nematode. Is that right?

Chris Chen 6:38

Correct. Yes. Those are anti Walker's.

Craig Macmillan 6:40

Crowning achievements. Brilliant stuff. You know, we're talking about genetic differences and rootstocks that have been bred for different conditions, including things like drought tolerance. What about what's on top, you make a point one of your articles that the landscape of wine growing is dominated by Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay, which means we have a very limited genome, essentially, of what's above ground. And we've learned from other crops that might not be such a great idea. We're talking about maybe trying to rootstock our way out of some of this. Can we variety, some of our way out of this.

Chris Chen 7:11

So the short answer to that is yes. The long answer is a bit more complex. You know, overall, all of the scions we put on are all one species Vitus vinifera, there's a few others like Vitesse labrusca, which is Concorde. And there's a there's a couple others that we use, but the majority of what we consider winegrapes is Vitus vinifera. So the genetic differences in the scions are not huge. The real differences are in the phenotyping. Right, you look at a Cabernet Sauvignon vine. And you compare that to a Tempranillo or Zinfandel, you'll see that the latter, they actually have quite larger canopies, even though they're the same species. The weird thing is they're more heat tolerant. Part of that might be their transpiration and might be for several reasons, these small changes in how they look change how they interact with their environment. So the real concern in you know, changing the scions from place to place site to site is that some places actually have latched on to a variety or two. If you think about Napa Napa, you think Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon, where I work in the north coast, it's Pinot Noir, a little bit of Chardonnay, some Sauvignon Blanc and Lake County, right? It's very possible to say, you know, if we have a one, one site that increases temperatures by, you know, temperature accumulation by 20%, in 10 years, it might behoove them to go from a cold climate grapes like Pinot Noir and switch over to something like Zinfandel. The problem is, well, the market that purchases their wine actually still keep buying their wines. If they go to Zinfandel, it would be a smart move. If you're thinking about, you know, the physiology of the plant of the difficulty of managing the vineyard, all the extra things you have to do if you want to stick with that cold climate grew up in a hot climate, not to say that people don't do that we do have Pinot Noir grown in San Joaquin Valley, for instance, just not as much as up here. So it's possible one of the problems is actually picking those varieties, picking the right varieties because just because it gets hotter here doesn't mean you know, Santa Rosa has the same climate as Bakersfield. There's differences in humidity and light incidents. There's differences in just cultural practices, what people do to manage the soils what they do for fertilizing. So overall, yeah, it's possible but there's other barriers besides just switching the plant.

Craig Macmillan 9:29

It sounds like some of those barriers are the ability to make accurate predictions about what might happen if I'm planting Zinfandel in an area where it's never really had Zinfandel. I don't know exactly what's gonna go on. But then also it sounds like acceptance of the marketplace is gonna play a big role. That's that's a different conversation. Unless you have a feeling about it. I think part of what goes on is we do have information from the marketplace. We do have research, but a lot of what goes on here is growers themselves as individuals are making decisions out what's gonna happen? Right? It's not necessarily that we're getting handed down this necessarily the trend, but like, I think this is where we're gonna go. When you talk to people about this kind of thing. What kind of response do you get from growers?

Chris Chen 10:10

Yeah, you know, it depends. There are growers that are all about trying new cultivars, and they usually inhabit kind of niche markets, a lot of these growers will grow varieties that are useful for blending. So if you need some more color, if you need some more acids, they'll grow these varieties that impart that to wines that otherwise wouldn't have them. And you know, there's only so much of a market for that. I think there's also growers on the other side where they say, Well, no, in order for us to make our ends meet, we have to stick with so and so variety, we have to stay with Pinot Noir because our entire consumer base wants it. And you know, there's trends in viticulture in California as a whole that have followed these, you know, this chain of events Muscats Muscats, used to be very popular along with making a rose out of Zinfandel. Riesling was another one, people planted a bunch of these things, and then the consumer market dropped out. And they were stuck with fines that take, you know, five years to hit any kind of good crop. And within those five years, it fell out of favor. So they're selling their grapes for pennies, compared to what they would have been if had they had them at the peak of the popularity, we can't change our varieties just based on popularity, and we can't keep them just based on popularity. But there are these constants right 40% of the grapes planted in California are Cabernet Sauvignon Chardonnay, which is not a bad thing. It just means that people want it.

Craig Macmillan 11:31

use the term asynchronous or asynchrony, and viticulture. What What do you mean when you refer to that?

Chris Chen 11:37

so that's a term that I thought would be very applicable to the situation. So vineyards as a whole run on a schedule, they run on timing, and part of that is their biological timing, right? So their biological timing is based off of heat accumulation. So the hotter it is for the longer the quicker we have budbreak, the quicker we have chute growth and fruit set, and so on. So that as the climates are changing, and we know we're going to see higher temperatures in some places, then we're seeing a shift in that timing. And a shift in that timing changes a lot of things, it changes how the plants interact with insects and pests and beneficial insects, because they're also changing their timing, we're seeing, you know, some insect pests are increasing their generations. So they instead of two generations a year, they'll have three in some really hot places, for instance. But also these these beneficial insects that control the pests are switching their timing of hatching and switching their timing of maturity. And we're seeing that more and more, and we're afraid we're gonna start seeing that in agriculture relatively soon. So what all of that together means is that when you look at a vineyard, the events that you would have had for the past 100 years are not happening at the same times as they would have been in the next 10 years than they did previously. And that's a challenge actually, for you know, management as well, because labor resources are, especially in agriculture are often you know, made more available during timeframes where they're needed. And if that timeframe changes, there's gonna be a year or two where that's a problem.

Craig Macmillan 13:09

If we don't change anything, let's say we don't change varieties, we don't change the root stocks or anything, I'll get vineyards that are 10 years old now and hopefully get another decade or two out of it, or I'm making decisions 20 years from now for a variety like Cabernet Sauvignon you're in and we will talk about Pinot Noir as well that I think that's an important one. But I want to start with Cab, in your experience, let's say things get warmer and colder. And then we don't know what's going to happen with weather. So let's just leave rainfall out of it for now. But just the swings in the higher the highs and lower lows, what impact do you think that's gonna have on wine quality or yield? How are these things going to change? Do you think as a viticulturalist?

Chris Chen 13:45

Especially wine grapes really need that big swing in temperature, so they need that diurnal shift that's really hot summer days and really cold summer nights. That really helps them develop their flavonol profiles, their tannins, their anthocyanins, anthocyanins more so about, light, you know, incidents light exposure, but that's beside the point. So it's actually kind of a good thing. The problem is when we hit these limits, right? So when we hit these limits of it's too hot. So now instead of accumulation of these compounds, what we're seeing is a degradation of them. So they're accumulating in the grapes faster throughout the year. So again, this is that asynchrony, right. So as you get closer toward the traditional historic harvest time, you think, okay, these grapes are still accumulating their tannins, or they're still accumulating their flavonols or their their anthocyanins are not degrading it. But what we're seeing is that increase in the growing degree days or heat accumulation is actually decreasing the amount of stable compounds in the grape that we want. So we're seeing especially with color, we're seeing a degradation in color. anthocyanins are degrading, much sooner and to higher degrees in these really hot summers, especially when We have these heat waves that we had last year. These heat waves are terrible for these things. But we don't know which varieties are going to be tolerant to this and can can withstand these changes in extremes. So the increases in high temperatures, the decreases in low temperatures, the low temperatures aren't really a problem unless we get freezing temperatures which we shouldn't in summer, but it's not impossible.

Craig Macmillan 15:23

Not impossible could happen. What about Pinot Noir, famously very sensitive, very narrow range that it likes. Right. I got you on the spot here.

Chris Chen 15:32

Yeah, I can't speak to that too much. Because all of the trials that I've done and I've seen have been with Cabernet Sauvignon, one of the most popular red varieties in the world, I can't say that it's more or less sensitive to these changes Pinot Noir. But based on its classification, as a region, one region two cold climate grape, it's likely to be more sensitive to these extreme highs in summer and degrade faster. We do know that Pinot Noir ripens sooner than Cabernet Sauvignon does, on average, you know, put them in the same spot and your Pinot is going to be done. I don't know spitballing number here two weeks before the Cabernet is so you harvest the two weeks ahead of time. That means if you're harvesting it at the same time as Cabernet, you're getting more degradation in those anthocyanin. So that would be the theory behind why Pinot Noir might be more affected by these high temperatures. But I don't have anything to cite for you at the moment.

Craig Macmillan 16:25

Sure, sure. But I think that your insight there is useful in that. Okay, maybe we don't know what's gonna happen. We can kind of guess at some things that might happen. But if we know kind of where things might end up, or how the vine might repond, I might change my winemaking, I might change my canopy management style, right? I knew a guy who was an old school farmer, and he refused to put in drip irrigation even in new vineyards. And I asked him about it. And he said salts, that's the way to go. That's it only way to do it. And I was like, well, that's 1974 It's not 1974 anymore. And he goes looks listen in the middle of a day, it's 105 I can turn on those sprinklers. And I can cool that canopy and I can avoid stress. I said we're gonna overwater, you're gonna do it, because you just gotta know what you're doing son, like just, I can put it out there. And I can manage this a more effective tool for me. I watched him over the years and saw what he did. He had it really dialed in. But he had a totally different approach to what tool he wanted to use to deal with whatever the environmental condition was. And I thought that was really interesting and very clever. Are there things that we can learn from other parts of the world? Because obviously, there's differences in climate different places to Australia, you know, very different interestes and very warm areas there, if I understand correctly, are we gaining knowledge, we gained some guidance from other parts of the world on this topic?

Chris Chen 17:42

If we're not we should be there's this popular topic that England United Kingdom can grow grapes now, and they can grow good grapes now. And that's new. That never used to be the case. And you know the story of I don't know if this is true. But the story of why Brut champagne or Brut sparkling wines called Brut is because the French made it for the English and they didn't like them. No, I mean, we do have things to learn. Yeah, we do have things to learn from other people, especially places that are really hot. South Africa, Australia, these, you know, these locations are, a lot of them are dealing with conditions that, you know, we see here as well, but they're dealing with it on a much larger scale. So we see, you know, really hot temperatures in the San Joaquin Valley, Sacramento Valley. But we grow grapes there. And we're good at it. You know, in Australia, that's a huge swath of land that's in those kinds of conditions. But then the one where it gets really sensitive is when we get to the coast when we get to colder climates, like where I work where I operate. So it's going to be, you know, the coastal regions that really are impacted more, because they don't have the infrastructure, they don't have the cultivars to really tolerate that heat. And what we need to do is look at places that are experiencing this change before we're experiencing it. And often these are Mediterranean climates, also, right, New Zealand, Australia, South America, Chile, and see what they're doing, see how they're adapting to it and what cultivars they're planting. You know, I'm not saying that all of Mendocino County should be planting Sheraz or Sahra. But you know, it might be good for some growers to try it out and see what's going on. I've been advocating for a lot of growers that, you know, if you're replanting, and vineyard, plant a few other cultivars somewhere and just see how they do, you know, it's not really great for if you're harvesting with the machine, because you end up knocking those into the same bin as all the other grapes. But if you could, you know, find an area where it's isolated and far enough away that you're not going to mix them up might be good to plant five, five to 10 vines of something else and see how it does because each each region is going to be different. Each region is going to have to have a different response because climate change is very regional.

Craig Macmillan 19:53

But the good news is that we are pretty clever. As an industry we've come up with all kinds of solutions to all kinds of problems over the years. without the folks like you have made that possible. We're running out of time. But I want to ask you one very simple and very short question. And that is based on everything that we've kind of talked about what one piece of advice or what one takeaway would you give a grape grower?

Chris Chen 20:16

I would say the most important thing is to do really good monitoring practices to really get out there and see how your vines are changing, and how your site is changing. You can you can try new cultivars, you can try, you know, different root stocks, you can try different canopy management practices. But if you don't keep track of how things are changing in response to that, then there's no point, right? There's a lot of really good tools out there. There's a lot of new things coming out that you can you can, you know, remotely sense and identify diseases, changes in stomatal conductance in different physiological measurements that are really important to developing a grapevine. Just look at these new monitoring solutions. Be wary of ones that may or may not work, you know, don't don't put all of your your eggs in one basket, that kind of thing. But get out there and monitor.

Craig Macmillan 21:06

I think that's great advice. And I think that applies to a lot of things. Where can people find out more about you?

Chris Chen 21:10

I have a website. If you go to Google, and you type in UC AND Chris Chen, it should bring up my bio, and there's a link to my lab page there, has a bunch of resources has a bunch of links and papers. And I think you know, especially if you're in the North Coast region and the counties I work in, you can just give me a call. You know, most people can just call me anyways, I work for University of California. So it's, you know, quasi public domain. Yeah, please feel free to reach out.

Craig Macmillan 21:38

Fantastic. So our guest today has been Chris Chen. He's an integrated vineyard systems advisor for Sonoma, Mendocino and Lake counties with the University of California Cooperative Extension. Thanks for being on the podcast. Chris. This is really fun.

Chris Chen 21:50

Thanks for having me. Craig. Enjoyed it.

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We hope that the previous Marketing Tips' strategies to build a strong brand and practices to maintain consumer trust have been helpful in planning or reviewing your branding strategy. But branding isn’t something you can set and forget.

This week we’ll go over ways you can manage the brand strategies you have already put in place.

Ensure Consistency with a Style Guide Consistent imagery and language help to provide the voice and visual presence of your brand. A style guide is a document that provides guidelines for the ways in which you communicate through and about your brand. Style guides typically include your logo and any variations of it, your color palette, typography details, and design standards (think minimalist, modern, etc). Having all of this standardized and readily available for reference will help to give direction and provide cohesion for all of your visual communications.

SIP Tip: check out our Style Guide!

Bring in the Team It’s important that your entire team is on the same page when it comes to branding efforts. Start your next team meeting with an overview of your branding strategy so that everyone is aware of your brand's communication style and messaging. And be open to their feedback! Every team member has a different experience when it comes to interacting with your brand. They can provide valuable insights into how the brand is being perceived, what efforts seem to be working, and which ones can use improvement.

Continually Share Your Story Whether it’s in the tasting room, on your website, in your sales calls, or in casual conversations, telling your brand’s story in an open and authentic way is key to a consistent brand identity that people will recall and trust. Did you know that talking about your specific sustainability efforts can boost wine sales? In her recent research, Kathy Kelley Professor of Horticultural Marketing and Retail Business Management at Penn State University found that when brands shared stories about their sustainable practices and why they used them, consumers were willing to pay $1 - $4 more for a bottle of wine! Listen to her 22-minute interview with Craig Macmillan to learn more about her findings, and how you can experience these benefits.

More SIP tips to come! Searches for sustainable goods have increased by 71% since 2016 making it more important than ever to share your message of sustainability. Continue to tell your customers how your brand protects the health of the people and the planet. It lets them know that by purchasing your wine they are supporting a brand that shares their values. Stay tuned for more ways to communicate your good work.

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes for links to our latest tips to help you build your brand strategy and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine * 3 Ways to Build a Strong Brand * Did you know...? * Do consumers trust your brand? * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified

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The study of whole vine physiology does not isolate one variable in grape growing. It looks at many factors at once including data collection in the plant, in the environment and in fruit. In her research, Patty Skinkis, Viticulture Extension Specialist and Professor in the Horticulture Department at Oregon State University helps growers improve their farming practices by evaluating the plant growth stage, shoot growth, pruning weights, yield, cluster weight, berry size, and fruit chemistry. Patti shares her surprising results from a 10-year trial on crop load management. Grower trials found there was very little difference with crop thinning in both fruit and wine quality.

References: * 145: New Class of Compounds Linked to Smoke Taint in Wines * 2/15/2023 Managing Grapevine Trunk Disease Webinar | REGISTER * Elizabeth Tomasino, Associate Professor, Oregon State University * Patty Skinkis * Patty Skinkis Google Scholar Page * Patty Skinkis on Instagram * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team – Become a Member * Yield Management Video

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Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And our guest today is Dr. Patti Skinkis. She is viticulture extension specialist and professor in the Horticulture Department at Oregon State University. And really excited to have you here tonight. Welcome Patti.

Patti Skinkis 0:10

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Craig Macmillan 0:12

So there's a concept that's kind of out there. I'm familiar with the words, but I'm not entirely familiar with what it means. What is whole vine physiology?

Patti Skinkis 0:21

Whole vine physiology is really looking at the study of how the vine is responding to its environment. And it's not looking at just one component, it's looking at how the entire vine is responding. A lot of times, whole plant physiologists are more applied plant physiologist, rather than more fundamental in that they're looking at exactly how that plant is responding to its environment. And sometimes that environment is things that we do to it, such as the studies that we do and in crop management, as well as fine tuning, looking at some aspects and and trying to understand how it links to other aspects of how that plant is responding to its environment. But we're taking the plant as a whole.

Craig Macmillan 0:59

That sounds kind of difficult. It sounds like there's a lot of variables there. How do you do you identify a couple of variables? And say, we're going to look at these? And if so, how many might you be able to handle at a time? You know, I've done a lot of research and statistics. And every time you add something the whole system gets exponentially more complex. As an example, what kinds of things might you look at with a plant, you're going to modify one variable in the environment? But then what other kinds of responses might you look at?

Patti Skinkis 1:23

Well, doing whole plant physiology work is difficult in it's the nature of the beast, when you're looking at the entirety and taking it in as a whole. I like to address this question from a standpoint of what it is not. And partly because I work with a lot of other scientists who work in biochemistry or fruit chemistry. And they always want to isolate the one thing or two things that can explain what we might be seeing in fruit chemistry, or in plant nutrition. But the reality is, we have to accept that we can't explain at all that it's a whole package. It's not one specific mechanism. As a result of that we look at a lot of things, we try to understand how one piece will influence another piece. So a lot of times in the studies that I'm doing, we tend to do a lot of data collection on the plant as well as in the environment. And then the fruit, it means that we do a lot of data collection, maybe more so than other scientists would if they are just looking at pathology or insects or some other aspect, we monitor the vines phonology. So the growth stage, we monitor shoot growth early season, and then we switch to leaf area, we do pruning weight. So all of those are giving us an idea of the plant size, how much it grows. And then of course, we look at yield, and then yield components, which takes it through looking at cluster weight and rakus, length and very size. And all of those just take a lot of time. And then of course we get into the root chemistry. And it's not just you know basic ripeness at harvest, we then go into global analyses of key compounds like nitrogen and the phenomics. We do collect a lot of data and ultimately, what refines what we're looking at is kind of we always write our research questions to say, Okay, here's what we're going to target. But then a lot of times, we end up coming back to doing all of those measures, in part because we know that a lot of it is interlinked. And so it is a lot of data collection, a lot of complexity. One of your questions was how do we deal with all the variables? And so that really, you know, from the standpoint of doing whole plant physiology, where I'm working in a vineyard, I'm working typically in research farms, or on grower collaborator sites. And when it comes to controlling variables, that's when we try to do as much as we can. So can we pick a trial site where we've got very healthy vines that we know are consistent, rootstock consistent soil as best we can consistent, slope, we try to even avoid hillsides if we can. And if we can't, then we block accordingly. So we're doing a lot of re study evaluation of the site to know what can we at least try to eliminate instead of creating more messiness, in a system that we're trying to understand.

Craig Macmillan 4:02

You mentioned work that you're doing what what kinds of things you're looking at right now.

Patti Skinkis 4:05

So right now we have a number of different trials, but main work is in vineyard floor management rootstocks and yield management. And so those are the three primary areas that I'm working on currently.

Craig Macmillan 4:19

What do you do with root stocks? I know that wasn't the topic you and I talked about earlier, but I'm curious about that, because that's a fixed thing. Pick the root stock. And that's it forever. I hope I made the right choice.

Patti Skinkis 4:30

While we're doing a rootstock trial, and I'm lucky that my predecessors had established a block in 1997. So we have a well maintained mature trial with 19 rootstocks that are include Pinot Noir on those 19 rootstocks and owner divines. And so we came back thinking okay, there's a lot more questions coming from growers here in Oregon about what rootstocks they should be using climate change is definitely occurring. We see warmer, drier seas Once and while most of our vineyards can be dry farmed in the Willamette Valley, many people are very concerned about being in sites that have limited soils or not as luxurious soil. So we call them in terms of soil moisture as and nutrition, but also there, even though we're dry farmed, we don't necessarily have access to water. So if they needed to irrigate and may not be be possible if they're getting into different vineyard properties, we decided to embark on looking at this trial that has been in place at our research farm and come in and start looking at plant water stress and comparing those to our standard rootstocks, which happened to be in our trial. So we have a whole mix of more drought tolerant root stocks as well as our standard vineyard rootstocks, which are mostly vigor reducing, not drought tolerant. And those are what most of our industry is planted on, at least here in the Willamette Valley. And so the the trial was really done to see, okay, if we do switch to root stocks, what does it look like for yield for canopy size. And we, of course, looked at the the water stress response as well. And so we've been monitoring over the last four years different components of that rootstock trial, and the last two years being looking more in depth at plant water stress as a result.

Craig Macmillan 6:12

This is kind of a practical question, in my mind when we're talking about things like yield changes, are you pruning like this rootstock tell? Are you pruning everything to the same bud count? Are you leaving the same number of growing points on every mind?

Patti Skinkis 6:22

That is a great question, because it's such a mature trial, the results of rootstock are clearly visible. So for the most part, we can prune to the same number of buds per plant. But in some cases, we have to do balance pruning, because there's so little vigor, so for example, with Riparia rootstock, it's very degrading. And so we cannot do the same number of buds as we can, for 1616 or 1103 or 140R for the most part, we try to keep to the same, but number. But again, we have to balance prune some of those that are clearly very invigorated by the rootstock.

Craig Macmillan 7:00

You've been doing work on crop load recently, which I'm very, very, very interested in. What is it specifically that you're looking at terms of variables, manipulations, then also very user? How did this come about? How did this become a research question they became interested in?

Patti Skinkis 7:12

The crop load work has been a part of my research program now for about 12 years. And I started out doing that work, because I saw a lot of focus on reducing yield in the Oregon industry. When I first came here, it didn't make sense to me, because our vines are very healthy, we get a lot of leaf area, they're well managed. And it's not high shoot density. I mean, everybody has shoot thinning to the the required three shoots per linear foot, or three to five at most per linear foot. And so their crop thinning at that time to one cluster per shoot, which is about a 40% crop reduction, and they're doing it late in the season. So around lag phase, of berry development. So I embarked on a study to studies timing by intensity trial in 2010, through 2013, and looked at just when should they be cropping and by how much. And we found that from that study, there was very clearly no benefit to really doing it early, we could do it late in which was my surprise, I thought if there was going to be any impact that would be necessary to hasten ripening, then, and that's always our goal, hasten ripening and increase quality because a lot of growers believe we need to do it to get our harvest end before the fall rains, or just to improve what they call concentration.

Craig Macmillan 8:34

Real quick, just talked about Oregon in general. So if I've got Pinot Noir in the Willamette Valley, how much danger do I have from rain coming into harvest? Is that a common problem? Is that happen occasionally, but enough that it's an issue?

Patti Skinkis 8:46

Certainly 10 to 12 years ago, it was a real and present danger every year. And now in recent years, it's been less of a concern because we become warmer and we tend to be harvesting earlier. So when I embarked on this trial, you know, it's always a concern. And it certainly is at the forefront of most of the longtime grape growers and winemakers as we get new people and I think they're willing to do more hangtime. So there's always this dichotomy of wanting hang time, but always the threat of, of rain, and we just don't know there's no crystal ball to know how long we'll have. But typically, we're seeing more dry September's than we have in the past. Usually, by the time we get to October, everybody's you know, they're worried about the rain coming, it's a percentage chance of having rains during harvest is significantly higher. As we get into October when we were doing the work. We wanted to see, you know, should they be thinning because their vines are behind and they need to thin earlier or do we thin later as a means to kind of have them catch up. And what we found in those first studies was that did not really make a difference to crop thin, early, and in fact, it made more vigor and we deal with a lot of over vigor in the Willamette Valley, so there was definitely not worth cluster thinning preboot Boom or at bloom or even at fruit set and waiting to leg favs was completely founded. The second thing we found is that the cluster thinning really didn't have had much of an impact at all. The only year it did was in 2011, which was a, a cooler season, and a very big crop. And we were very late. So about a month later in everything. And so we did see a benefit of of cluster thinning in that year where we kind of reached a maximum level that we would expect that these plants would be able to carry through ripeness. So when I did all of those trials, I shared it with growers, they were very excited to hear the results growers much more excited than winemakers about the results. But their answer kept being to me, you know that that's great, you got an answer for those two vineyards where you did that work. But those are special cases or only those vineyards. And I thought, you know, is bigger. When we look at crop load management is such a entrenched practice that you crop then in high in cool climate regions for high wind quality. Restricting crop is important. And that's something that one study here there is not going to change. And the only way to really change it would be to embark on a very large project that directly engages growers in that process, not only growers but winemakers, too, and doing that work on their farms. So prior to my first crop load studies even being finished, I started embarking on this idea of a much, much more grandiose project that involved a lot of partnership with industry directly. And so over two years, we had planned the study, working with growers on an advisory committee and said, Okay, here's my idea, what do you think, will you join? And how can we make this work. And so that was in 2010, I basically started having those conversations while I was also doing my smaller scale projects. And as a result of that, we started what's called the statewide crop load project. And we ran that for 10 years from 2012, to 2021. So 10 growing seasons, and we solicited partnerships with growers, they were all volunteers, and they came mostly from the Willamette Valley. And they basically did the cluster thinning or crop thinning to their determined levels that they wanted to use over as many as 10 years. So so they had to be in the project at least three years if they could. And the the goal was for them also to make wine. And so sometimes the winery that owns the vineyard made the wine sometimes other folks or other people who bought the wine made the wine, the wines had to be made. And so the process was that the growers had to do the thinning and collect data per protocols that my lab gave them. And then they had to produce the wines that then we did some analysis on. And we did the analysis on fruit as well.

Craig Macmillan 12:43

These growers, were they doing different different levels of thinning on their property, side by side, and then you were using site as rep. I'm totally geeking out here, but or were they designed as replicated experiments on site or just this ranch does this and this ranch does it? How did you how did you set it up? Because that's hard?

Patti Skinkis 13:01

Yes. So we set it up as more robust is what I wanted, I wanted to be replicated on site. And then so each trial is its own trial. So each grower had to replicate it in a randomized complete block design in their individual vineyards. And so that at the end of the day, we could analyze their data within their vineyard, as well as across all vineyards. So it's replicated at least three times. In fact, most vineyards were replicated far more than three times, but I only made them get data on three reps, because they've quickly realized that they could divide their vineyard up into as many treatment reps as they wanted. But then if they would collect data on all of those, it would just be time to time consuming. So we did minimum of three reps of data collection.

Craig Macmillan 13:45

You are my statistical hero. Now, I've had to do these. And what you're doing is just the gold standard gold plated. I'm so happy. I can't wait to find out what you found out because you did it exactly right. I'm so struck, anyway continues to have. So this is great. So the industry they're doing, they're doing it on site. They're collecting data.

Patti Skinkis 14:03

They're collecting the data, they hand in the data, they make the wine, and then we did sensory for five years with the Oregon State University. My colleague here Elizabeth Tomasino led sensory trials with winemakers. And so we did the first five years that way. And then the second five years, the group as a whole decided they wanted to switch gears and focus on just their internal sensory. So in house evaluation of their wines, which I had hoped that they were doing the first five years, but it turned out unless you gave them a protocol, they did not collect the data on it. They were collecting data, but they weren't sharing it. So that was my the second half of the study. I thought okay, we'll shift gears and part of that was, you know, ideally, someone would say, Well, why don't you just stick it through with that the sensory analysis at OSU? Well, it costs money. And this project was, you know, for a 10 year project, we had to try to save money as best we can because no granting agency wants to get have money for 10 years of research. And so we decided, you know that we were not going to continue with that and, and shift really to the focus of the growers. I mean, that's who's making the decision growers and wineries, I should say, making the decisions about the quality of the wines as a result of thinning to make their choices as to where that fruit goes and make future plans on crop thinning. And so we really took it towards that first five years looking at do we see a difference? Versus and doing some descriptive analysis to the second five years still trying to see asking questions about difference testing, and about descriptive analysis, but now taking it from a standpoint of who's making this decision about these wines, and they're tasting them. And so really encouraging growers to taste them and wineries to taste them if they had not already done so.

Craig Macmillan 15:51

And what kind of things did you find out?

Patti Skinkis 15:53

So the power of doing the research in each individual vineyard meant that I could do the stats for each vineyard and hand them a report of their project. And each year as we went through the project, we would share the results with the growers. So we went every year crop year that we closed, we shared the viticulture data with them. And the results were there's very little difference with crop thinning over time, we figured okay, this might be a you know, impact of, you know, over time, you know, we always hear from crop consultants or vineyard managers, if you keep cropping heavy, you're gonna have to add more inputs. We didn't see that, generally speaking, we have some vines in the study that were full cropped, never thinned for 10 years. And they did just fine. There are some things that we did find, you know, generally speaking in any one vineyard with lag phase crop thinning, there was very little impact on and fruit quality. So fruit composition is mostly what we had data for. But we're talking bricks, pH titratable. acidity, very rarely were they different until we got into years where our base yields were just much higher than normal. So we saw that in a year where maybe our yields were double. So cluster sizes were bigger fruitfulness was higher than we saw some impact, but it wasn't every site, it was maybe a third of the sites, the results really came that most sites there's very little difference in that end wine quality and when I'm sick or fruit quality, I should say. So Brix pH ta Yanes. So use this global nitrogen, we looked at total phenolic total tannins total anthocyanins and for the first five years of the study, we had ETS labs run their whole phenolic panel, and as well as their ripening panel, and we saw very little differences in there might be some years that a certain vineyard had a difference. But then after that year, they didn't have it anymore. So it was very inconsistent. And it's not to say that thinning did nothing, but it was very, very limited in the results to say okay, we are definitely changing x when we crop then we didn't see that. And that was a real eye opener. So that was the fruit. So I should say that was what the fruit told us now when it came to the wine. For the first five years, our sensory panel led by Dr. Elizabeth Thomasino, you know, here at OSU, she was winemakers. So the winemakers were Oregon winemakers, the results of those years was that crop level was not what drove the quality or the perceived preference of wine, it was really the vineyard or the the winemaker from a given site, there was never really any clear identity of higher quality or higher concentration or higher certain descriptive analyses for a crop level. So it became clear that there wasn't very much difference. And that was one of the reasons the real reasons why I think the collaborators wanted to go a different route because they were not seeing seeing much difference. And so they thought, Well, maybe if we start looking internally, we see differences. So the second five years, we did ETS labs didn't run the analysis, I ran those in house in my lab. And so we we did the same measures as ETS lab from from the standpoint of global analyses, same thing, very little difference. But when we switched to looking at the impact of wines from getting the data from the winemakers, number one we had a really hard time getting that data and so many collaborators, they followed through, and they didn't do the paperwork, or they didn't ever follow through with us. And so it was really challenging to get the data but from those who did follow our protocols, the results mirrored our first five years which was there was very little difference. And it was very hard to tell a difference in in the wines. Now they knew that there was a difference. So when we asked him for a difference test, we said can you tell the difference? Of course they said yes, because they knew they were blind tasted but they knew if any, it was an evaluation, so it was a little leading there. But when it came down to describing what they were seeing in the wines, comments like all of these wines are lovely came up and so there wasn't a clear distinction on quality, that one was very clearly bad. So we did a two step approach, we had them first taste some blind, do their ratings individually, then they would find out the identity of the wines. And then they as a group, they would talk about them. And it always came out that after they knew the identity, that's when they were changed their mind about any given wine that they rated initially. So what we see in the pattern of the results was that they were willing to not completely downgrade the higher yield. Unless it was the no thin. If it was no, thin they felt very uncomfortable saying, Okay, we don't need tp thin, but they felt more comfortable saying, Okay, we like this one and a half clusters for shoot, which is a one to one to thinning pattern, which is about a 15 to 20% crop production. And I can understand that as a winemaking team, as a grower team, you want to be conservative, you want to be careful, you don't want to say okay, yeah, so I found a lot of what they were answering on was more future looking rather than what's right in front of you right now. Like looking at, okay, here's the wines use the full crop or no thin and here's your one and a half cluster, one cluster pursuit, you didn't find them all that different in the descriptive analysis. But now when you're, you know, the identity, then you're saying, Okay, we're not going to take these notes into our highest here. We're going to leave those aside. So there's some bias.

Craig Macmillan 21:20

Yeah, well, no, absolutely. And that's one of the things I love talking about. And you know that the winemaking techniques were consistent across the lots. Yeah, so it wasn't canopy management manipulations or anything like that.

Patti Skinkis 21:32

Yep. So both in the vineyard and in the winery. So when we said they did this in their vineyard, they couldn't do things differently in the vineyard of two, one or the other. And we actually picked up an issue. And that some you know, when you do crop thinning, you have labor crews come through and leaf pull. And we recognize that early on that some growers just wouldn't leaf pull as much in there no thin so we had them go in and leaf pull the same as they would for their other thinned to remove that that issue. In the winery we told them they had to make all their wines the same. And we did not have them do for example, long barrel aging in oak barrels, they could make the wines how they normally make their wines. But they we did not want them to go to barrel. And so they had to be bottled and then tasted after about a year of bottle aging.

Craig Macmillan 22:21

Interesting. Maybe I missed this but you were talking about the thinning protocols meaning like around bloom time and round lag phase. What about at verasion that's at least around where I'm at in Central Coast's is very common to do crop dropping about 85% verasion was that a component what you did was or verasion era?

Patti Skinkis 22:40

We did verasion time point included in our time core study that was before we launched on the big project. So when we did the big project, we decided we would just go with what growers always do, rather than adding more time points. And so they just did in the statewide crapola project just did like face for our crapload are thinning by timing by intensity trial, we did include verasion for that time for that trial.

Craig Macmillan 23:08

And that green drop is at about the same, like at about 85% or somewhere in there. What was the trigger for the drop at verasion?

Patti Skinkis 23:16

It's post lag phase was done when there's about 50% color.

Craig Macmillan 23:20

Okay, there we go. Okay, that makes sense.

Patti Skinkis 23:22

The verasion time point is or late, even later, is oftentimes done in Oregon as well. But usually it's a result of either thinking that they have way too much crop out there for their target yields, or disease, so botrytis.

Craig Macmillan 23:54

And when you're talking about these different crop load levels, I would imagine that disease pressure would be an important issue, especially in Pinot Noir in Oregon, I would think.

Patti Skinkis 24:04

So that's a great point, because some people, you know, will crop thin because they want to avoid overlapping clusters. But in our trial, what we did was we said, Okay, for the no thin, we want you to just do things like you've always done and some growers would say, Okay, now when they're, we're sorting that fruit, should we sort out at the sorting line, you know, and I said, No, you know, if you do sorting line for that fruit, make notes, you know, obviously, you don't want to make a bad wine because there's too much botrytis. But basically, what we had them do was if you're going to sort through one you have to sort through the other and don't just have preconceived notions that you're going to have to sort more in your no thin than the others. And we always in the data that we got in we looked at as we dissected clusters, we looked for detritus, and what we found is in most years, there is not an impact of having no thin having more disease. Now Could there have been sure if there was years with very heavy crop yield, and with high shoot density, but most of our vineyards have when we looked at all of our data we got in and one of the quality control checks is, what was their shoot density, and almost everybody's following in that perfect shoot density. And so there wasn't that necessary, necessarily that much fruit on their vine. So they're all cane pruned. And they're all shooting for that shoot density of between three and five shoots per linear foot. And we're more on the three end. So we can see that in all of the data. So it's not surprising to me that we didn't see disease issues as a result of leaving that full crop on there, why we didn't see a lot of differences in this trial, I should provide some context here. Without you know, the amount of yields were not terribly high, with that kind of shoot density. So single canopy, low shoot density, we're at a pound per linear foot on average full crop in only a couple of years. During the 10 year period, we're over one and a half pounds per linear foot. So the tonnage that would come off of that. And I always put talking pounds per linear foot because our vineyards were in many different spacing and shoot and vine density. So you we can't talk tonnage, what we found in looking at the data that there were clear years where once we had yields over one and a half pounds per linear foot, then we saw some benefit of cluster thinning. But those years where we are barely at one or just over one, there really was not a benefit. And of course, that's because of the canopies being well maintained. The shoe density is not too high cluster density is not too high a cluster size themselves are smaller.

Craig Macmillan 26:36

What has been the reception so far, for both growers and winemakers because this goes a little bit against conventional wisdom, at least in my experience?

Patti Skinkis 26:45

It goes a lot against convention,

Craig Macmillan 26:47

I'm trying to be polite.

Patti Skinkis 26:51

Well, the nice thing is, you know, because along the way of doing a 10 year project, I was always giving presentations as the new data set came out and people in the industry would hear me give presentations about it. But I think the strongest impact was seen because I had grower collaborators, they saw the impact in their vineyards and in their wineries. And what we found was that people are much more willing to increase their yields. My answer is not that they they stopped crop thinning, surely that didn't happen. But they were allowed to evaluate and recommend higher yields than they had in the past. And this is a data set that was really hard to get directly from people. But we see it in our state yield reports that basically they've gone up 25% The yields have for Pinot Noir. Since the work has been started. When I talk to people who are contracting fruit or selling fruit. They said they definitely see that winemakers are more receptive to vineyard owners and vineyard managers recommending higher yields. And they're no longer saying it has to be one cluster per shoot, or it has to be two tons per acre. And I would say the 25% increase in yield is conservative I when we did ask the collaborators about the project, we asked them about three quarters way through the project said, What do you feel comfortable doing as a result of this work. And they said, we feel comfortable adding another half to one tonne per acre, which is about a 20 25% increase from what they've done before. And so that's really is really astounding, I think any if I hadn't done the project this way, I don't think that people would have been able to understand the true impacts or lack thereof, of doing cluster thinning. So it provided with them with more evidence that they can take this risk and or they they didn't feel like it was as big of a risk to leave more fruit out there.

Craig Macmillan 28:48

Which reminds me I know it's difficult to talk in terms of tonnes per acre. So we can talk through the linear foot, but the range in your work from the most aggressive thinning to the unthinned. What kind of a range is there, how big of a difference in terms of the crop load?

Patti Skinkis 29:04

In terms of the yield that they've had in vineyards, the lowest crop thinning level that growers did was half cluster per shoot. So that meant thinning pattern 0101 or 1010. The yields on those would be as low as one and a half tonnes per acre. But it depends on the vineyard that it came from because one of the vineyards that did it was a very high density. So their yields were actually pretty high even still, but I'd say the max that we got in any vineyard was probably close to about eight tons per acre. So clusters per linear foot were always pretty consistent unless they went to a double canopy. So we did have one collaborator in the study that was on a GDC or Geneva demo curtain. But that vineyard was actually pretty degraded so it didn't explain higher yields. What we saw was higher yields were from those vineyards that had high density meter by a meter and a half spacing. Normally we were at on a pounds per linear foot bed He says that the extremes were about two to two and a half pounds per linear foot. And so for those vineyards, they could be pretty substantial if they were in the high density.

Craig Macmillan 30:09

We are running our of time. So I want to ask you a couple of kind of closing questions. Is there one piece of advice or insight or one thing that you would tell a grower regarding this topic.

Patti Skinkis 30:18

It all depends on what you have for your vineyard, your rootstock, how the vines are trained. So the biggest thing that we came up from this research is that we don't want to tell people that they have to crop them or that they don't have to crop them that and that we don't have a real answer of how much it has to be. But one of the things we do have clear in the data is that we know when we've gone too much, a lot of people think that that's every year and it's not every year because of our climate is so variable, we don't know what we're gonna have, we can go and quantify fruitfulness. But really until we get through fruit set in June, we don't know what our yields look like. And so I always tell people to keep monitoring your printing weights, your yields, calculating your your your Rivas index or the crop yield printing weight ratio, and just keep monitoring it for your site to know what Max is going to be because some vineyards can handle more than others. And the last thing I would say is quality is dependent on the vineyard site and how that site is managed. And even if you have a good manager, you are never going to have a really high end wine if you don't have the right site or the right you know, selection of clone rootstock etc. So it all plays into that quality and just crap any is not going to guarantee you a high quality wine.

Craig Macmillan 31:41

Once again. It's a great big world with lots of different variables all of which have to be considered. I want to thank my guest Dr. Patty Skinkis she is a viticulture, extension specialist and professor at Oregon State University in the Department of Horticulture. Real pleasure this has been really, really fun. Like I mentioned, this has actually been kind of a pet topic of mine for a long, long time. And I'm really happy that you've been doing this work and I hope more people learn about it.

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We are exposed to an estimated 4,000 to 10,000 advertisements per day. Branding and advertising are crucial to the success of businesses, but the trust that your brand builds with consumers carries a heavy load when it comes to the success of your efforts. Do consumers trust your brand?

Today we share how to build brand trust.

Building Brand Trust Create an experience People don't buy products, they purchase experiences. Poeple are emotional beings, and often make decisions to fulfill an emotional need, whether it's to relax and unwind, have a lively social experience, find entertainment, or ease a heavy heart. You must know the kind of experience you want to create in order to sell it.

People like consistency and familiarity. Returning customers come back because they enjoyed a previous experience. Identifying the kind of experiences you want to create for your customers allows you to consistently deliver an experience worth coming back to.

6 steps to creating an awesome brand experience:

Discover your purpose
Focus on storytelling
Be consistent
Find opportunities for engagement
Put experiences over sales
Adapt and evolve

Connect on a personal level Humans thrive on emotional, personal connections -- and these aren't limited to human-to-human relationships. An article in Foundr points out that, "Consumers crave personal relationships with brands..." How can you foster these personal relationships? Sharing your common values is a great place to start.

Consumers today are growing increasingly environmentally conscious. Through her research at Penn State University, Kathy Kelley, Professor of Horticultural Marketing and Retail Business Management, found that building stronger connections with your customers can be as simple as talking with them about the specific things your company does in regard to sustainability and why those practices are important. This can even increase the willingness to pay more for wine (listen to the podcast)!

Be open and authentic The Internet has become an integral part of our lives and can be a wonderful tool for showing transparency and authenticity. Use your online channels (website, social media, eNewsletter) to connect, not just to market. We often pull up the Internet to fulfill emotional needs like decompressing, catching up with others, and exploring our interests. Use the creative platforms available to you to welcome your followers to learn more about your business -- things that a one-time visitor may not have the opportunity to learn. This will help your followers to form a stronger, more personal connection with your brand.

More branding tips In our last Marketing Tip, we shared 3 ways you can strengthen your brand. Building brand trust is a crucial step in creating loyal supporters.

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's specific sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes for a links to the Eco-Awkening and Full Glass consumer purchasing research, this article, research on consumer preferences, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine * 3 Ways to Build a Strong Brand * Did you know...? * Identifying wine consumers interested in environmentally sustainable production practices * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified * What Sustainability Means to Consumers by Morning Consult

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Wood burns twice. The first burn takes wood to charcoal. The second phase takes charcoal to ash. Unless you remove oxygen. Josiah Hunt, Founder and CEO of Pacific Biochar Befit Corporation explains that Biochar is made at a high temperature in an oxygen-limited environment. Organic waste is taken through the first burn phase and by limiting the oxygen, remains charcoal. The final product is buried in the soil where it improves water retention and fertility. And you can do this at your own ranch. Listen in to hear Josiah’s tips on how to make and incorporate Biochar into your vineyard.

References: * 56: Conservation Burning and Biochar * Agricultural Benefits of Biochar * Biochar in Viticulture Webinar (featuring Doug Beck, Monterey Pacific Inc.) * Conservation Burning and Biochar * Pacific Biochar * Monterey Pacific * SIP Certified * “The Conservation Burn Technique” | Vineyard Team Technical Article * Vineyard Field Trial with Biochar and Compost * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Today is Josiah Hunt, who is founder and CEO of Pacific Biochar Benefit Corporation. And we're going to talk about guess what biochar. Josiah thanks for being on the podcast.

Josiah Hunt 0:09

Thank you.

Craig Macmillan 0:11

Let's just get right into it. And let's start with some basics. What exactly is biochar?

Josiah Hunt 0:15

Biochar is a funny word. First. biochar in its most basic terms is biomass charcoal, which is redundant because charcoal is from biomass and the generation like where the word came from is even funnier in my opinion, the word biochar was born out of the word Agra-char. But in the world first Agra-char conference in 2007, a company came forward and said, Sorry, we've already trademarked that back to the drawing board. And they came up with biochar. That's that's the origin story that I've heard. I think one of the really interesting questions is, why did we have to come up with a new word for charcoal, and the reason for that is climate change. So I think the key differentiator from where the word biochar came from is part of an idea, rather than a simple material. And that idea is wrapped up in waste organic material used to create biochar, a biomass charcoal, which is then buried in agricultural soils, where it serves two important purposes, carbon dioxide removal by sequestering that stable carbon into the ground and long term soil fertility. So this helping address climate change mitigation by removing carbon and climate change adaptation by facilitating food security. So it's a lot packed into that concept. So the word charcoal just couldn't hold it anymore.

Craig Macmillan 1:39

Just couldn't hold it off. We're talking about charcoal, which people have been making for millennia, essentially. So how is biochar made and are there multiple ways of this different materials, etc.?

Josiah Hunt 1:51

High temperature in an oxygen limited environment. So you're you're basically reaching these combustion temperatures, but you do so with an oxygen limited environment. So a woodchip brought up to 500 degrees Celsius would become a glowing ember. Its molecules so excited, they're shooting off photons. Now, if that woodchip came up to five degrees Celsius, and there's sufficient oxygen, you would have complete combustion first, that woodchip would volatilize off the gases become a chunk of charcoal, and then the oxygen would come in and destroy that charcoal, releasing all of its energy, and leaving only the ash mineral residue. If you have limited oxygen, that first part occurs pyrolysis part where you go from woodchip to charcoal, but that second phase of burning from charcoal to ash can only occur with the presence of oxygen, and thus, the limiting of oxygen is the key component to making the material.

Craig Macmillan 2:48

And then second phase is where the carbon is leaving into the environment?

Josiah Hunt 2:52

A better way to put this is that wood burns twice the first phase of combustion and the first phase of burning would be from woodchip to charcoal. And the second phase is from charcoal to ash. And that second phase can only occur in the presence of oxygen. Therefore, if you can limit the oxygen, you control, whether you're generating charcoal or ash.

Craig Macmillan 3:16

So controlling the oxygen is important. If you have a way of stopping that process midway. That's obviously the key to this, you have to be able to stop at the end of the process step not going any further. Is that right?

Josiah Hunt 3:29

That's correct.

Craig Macmillan 3:29

How do people do that?

Josiah Hunt 3:32

There's two kind of main ways one would be we're working with continuous flow machinery. So the woodchips come enter a system in which they experience incredibly high temperatures and limited oxygen environment where pyrolysis occurs, the gases leaving gases go off and they have their own work to do. And then that carbon flows out of that hot chamber into areas where we maintain that oxygen control. And we allow the temperature to begin to drop down to temperatures that are ambient, essentially. And once you get that charcoal material to ambient temperature, it is safe, it's recalcitrant, and will will last for a very, very long time. So that's how we do it in a continuous flow. And then generally at the tail end of the process, we're adding water for dust control and safety. And if you had a batch process, you would initiate a paralysis to occur you initiate process to create basically start big fire, it would be one way to do that, and then allow it to go through that first phase where you'd have you know pyrolysis carrying wood becoming charcoal and then extinguish it, you got to stop it, you got to either completely cut off the airflow and snuff it out or introduce so much water that you would quench it that's also snuffing it out so that would be kind of a batch process approach to stopping it.

Craig Macmillan 4:46

So that's the the key stopping and along the way there and having some way of doing that. And that's what makes this whole thing essentially work. Now I've got this stuff. What is this charcoal, it used to be wood now what is it chemically? How was it changed, what do I have here in my hands?

Josiah Hunt 5:02

Biochar differs from the plant biomass that it was made from in that it has undergone a thermal thermal chemical conversion, an irreversible process where the associations of the carbon and other elements in there become completely reassociated, you have a wood chip that goes into a temperature range of 500 degrees Celsius plus and becomes a glowing ember shooting off photons. And those carbon atoms realign themselves into a different form that is highly aromatic versus aliphatic, meaning you're basically tightening these carbon rings here. And that helps the material become highly recalcitrant, meaning that it will have a persistence. In the environment, an order of magnitude are orders of magnitude greater than the plant biomass that was made from lasting hundreds to 1000s of years in the soil, and also with some very interesting changes to the surface characteristics.

Craig Macmillan 6:09

So that leads into the next question there. So we're talking about something that will remain in the soil for a very, very long time, which is one of the reasons it's of interest to agriculture. What are some of the applications why are people using this in agriculture? And how are they using this in agriculture?

Josiah Hunt 6:25

The charcoal material has some really interesting attributes some some really interesting characteristics. Other than just being highly recalcitrant, charcoal is the oldest known filter material, maybe most widely used over a long period of historical time, it works great, it can hold nutrients, it can hold plant nutrients, in this case, against a gradient, and it can hold plant nutrients in such a way that they will be resistant to environmental loss yet still plant available or biologically available, I should say, because sometimes it's the microbes or fungi who would access the material off the charcoal surface and make it available to the plant. And so that filtration characteristic is an incredibly important part of, of how biochar helps plants grow is it can help keep nutrients in the topsoil and resistant to environmental loss in a way that plants can still access them.

Craig Macmillan 7:24

And the same is true for water, correct?

Josiah Hunt 7:26

Yes, biochar material is incredibly porous. So a lot of the vascular tissue of the plant body remains intact. So it's really interesting, because you have this, you have this like, just completely dramatic molecular change, where the woody cellulosic material becomes a target material. And on a molecular level, it's so incredibly different. But on a structural level, most of the plant body remains. And so you can take a small piece of charcoal, and oftentimes a botanist, would be able to identify the plant species, it was made from

Craig Macmillan 8:02

Really?

Josiah Hunt 8:02

Yeah, the vascular. And in fact, this is an important piece of archaeology. So this is like in archaeology, they'll, they'll find little bits of charcoal, because it's highly recalcitrant. And they'll be able to identify what species of plant it was, because of the vascular tissue. And it can be pretty evident sometimes, I mean, it's really easy to tell the difference between oak and pine, you've got to be a connoisseur to be able to tell whether it's a Valley oak or red oak, yes, the vascular tissue of the plant body remains primarily, you know, largely intact. And so this is really interesting, you have a material that, you know, on a very, very micro level is very porous, but then even on a macro level, you have this vascular tissue of the plant body. So a lot of the a lot of the capillary action that the plants were taking advantage of transfers over to this biochar material, which is really interesting because now you have this highly recalcitrant material with incredibly high surface area, a functional surface of that and, you know, just incredibly intricate porous design determined by the DNA, that plant material, you know, it's just riddled with tubes and tunnels and nooks and crannies that help hold water and provide habitat for microorganisms.

Craig Macmillan 9:16

Is there research that's been done other findings about what quantity or type or whatever of biochar and how that relates to increases in water holding capacity or increases in soil microbiome populations or things like that? It seems like that'd be a pretty straightforward idea.

Josiah Hunt 9:33

I think I was looking at a graph this morning and I don't remember where it came from, but I think since 2007, there's been 28,000 research articles about that, that are related to biochar not specifically focused on biochar, but have biochar as a key word or an aspect. So biochar is is a you know, part of about 28,000 research articles. And a lot of that is focused on water because it's such an important part of the puzzle the dynamics between application rate and expected response get really nuanced. It comes down to what are the characteristics of the biochar material? And in many cases, what is really important, what are the characteristics of the soil, so you can expect to see a quite quite a range of different response, depending on the characteristics of the biochar material and the native soil that it's being applied to, you know, without any research articles, we're now at the stage where we're they're doing systematic reviews of the meta analyses, which begins to give you a lot of really powerful data. Overall, the water use efficiency, or there's so many different ways to measure it. And again, I'm a little bit undergunned the difference between plant available water and, and water holding capacity, you know, become existentially important to tell us that I probably don't have the same level of experience with.

Craig Macmillan 11:01

You may not need to be the expert, but you probably are the expert on where to find this information that helps. So if you can, if you can connect us with some things, even just general stuff, we'll pass that along to our listeners. And it'd be greatly appreciated. Because again, this is an ID the reason I bring this up is that, you know, we were talking earlier about, you know, 2007 and whatnot. I remember the first time this was introduced to me, and it was probably around the year 2000. And it's from a college student. There was one of my students, and I was and they were like, Hey, that's a great idea. We should really try it. And I said, I don't know I don't get it. They're like that. And I said, Well, how much material do we need? And I'm thinking like tons per acre. They're like, Oh, no, no, we just use a little bit. We do this and I was like, Okay, that sounds like witchcraft to me. Show me the science. Well, now here we are 20 years later. And we do have a lot of science. This is not a story anymore.

Josiah Hunt 11:50

There's a lot of science and, you know, the water conservation part. I think that's just such a key component of of the value that biochar can provide, particularly when we're talking about vineyards in California. And so I think it's it's useful to spend some time on that. So a couple key points of, of biochar and, and water use efficiency or water conservation. One is just that the material itself holds immense amounts of water. I mean biochar alone, the biochar that we're working with, we usually hold about six, six times its weight in water. But then the real important thing is how does it affect the water holding capacity or plant available water in the soil, and in most all aspects, the results are positive pretty much across the board. And here's a few key metrics, I think that would be useful to mention and that I find valuable. A couple of key points of biochar and water use efficiency or water conservation. One is that one of the easiest ways to think about biochar is that it is pyrogenic organic matter. Perhaps that's a better word than biochar. It's a much more scientifically accurate word. And when we think about this material, it's not unique. Humans didn't invent charcoal, or biochar for that matter. In fact, it's been part of soil development, as long as plant life and fire have coexisted. And according to geologic records, about 350 or more years ago, biochar became a significant component of topsoil development. And that generally, soil organic matter is measured by loss on Ignition, which does not differentiate between charcoal organic matter pyrogenic organic matter and non charcoal organic and studies that have used some very expensive and kind of painstaking processes to identify the charcoal organic matter as separate from the non toxic organic matter have shown us that charcoal organic matter is prevalent in most all agriculturally important soils, and oftentimes greater than 10% of the total organic matter, and not uncommon to find it as much as 30 to 50% of the total organic matter. And in some of our most valuable soils such as the Midwest plains like in Iowa, some of those those those highly fertile molecules up there can be 30 to 50% of organic matter in the form of charcoal. So I probably went too long into that definition or that that that distinction. But one of the easy ways to to think about biochar is that biochar is part of organic matter is not separate from and so when we're thinking about how does biochar impact my soil? Usually, we can kind of just consider what are the impacts of organic matter and what are the impacts of increasing my organic matter, and then think of biochar as a stable portion of your organic matter. That will have a lot of water conservation and tilth benefits, but it will not be a significant source of nutrients. And that's one of the significant differences of charcoal organic matter versus non charcoal organic matter, but in so many other situations, that's an easy way to think about the effects of biochar. So With biochar, and water conservation, one of the really important elements would be the soil type in determining what the projected outcomes might be. And there's been some really interesting findings in this area. At first, the primary focus was in sandy soils, which have a very low water holding capacity. And it's an easy win small amounts of biochar can have large impact on coarse soils, large positive impact, improving the water holding capacity in coarse soils

Craig Macmillan 15:30

What's a small quantity, a small quantity?

Josiah Hunt 15:33

That's a great question. You opened up a big box there. Biochar is a three dimensional application not a two dimensional so like if you add nitrogen, your soil, it's going to disperse throughout your soil. So nitrogen is simply you know, pounds per acre, whereas biochar, it's not going to distribute itself through the soil on its own, it's wise to also consider the area cultivated. So for instance, two tons per acre cultivated only in the planting row is very different than two tons per acre, cultivated 100% of the acreage or two tons per acre and the top six inches versus two tons per acre, two feet down.

Craig Macmillan 16:11

Is the real metric, then like volume to volume may think in cubic yards to cubic yards,.I just use percent organic matter equivalent, what I've found the most useful and looking at Biochar application rates, and again, kind of going back to how I find it really valuable to just kind of consider biochar applications within the frame of I'm going to change my soil organic matter, I'm going to be adding some stable soil organic matter. How much do I want to add and why? And framing biochar applications in that I find very useful. And then also, when I'm looking at when we've seen successful applications, either through work that we've done, or in research articles, how do we translate that into another successful application that might have different cultivation practices. And what we found is the percent organic matter equivalent is the most transferable number. And so what that would mean is that the biochar is primarily organic matter, but some of it can have a lot of ash content. So that would reduce the organic matter content of the biochar. You know, most of biochar that we're working with 95% organic matter. So then you're looking at the effect of that biochar in the area cultivated, right, so let's say if we have 10 tons wet weight of biochar might be six ton dry weight of biochar, which might be you know, 5.5 or 7%, dry tons organic matter. And then if we're cultivating that in to an area of our soil, we measure the general area that we're cultivating into, and we can come up with an organic matter equivalent. So just as a rule of thumb, a number that I find useful is that if you were to cultivate nine tonnes per acre down to six inches, it would be equivalent to 1% organic matter.

Okay, yeah. So that gives us an idea that gives us that gives us a sense.

Josiah Hunt 17:55

If you're doing a quarter of your land, like say you're doing two, two foot wide planting rows, and they're eight foot on center. Now you're a quarter of your acreage and you're going down 24 inches, that's 1%. Nine dried tons per acre plowed to six inches depth would be equivalent to 1% organic matter.

Craig Macmillan 18:13

Now let's let's bring this back to the vineyards because I know that there have been some folks that have been doing trials and whatnot with this that I think you're familiar with, how would somebody apply this method? In a vineyard setting? We would want to get it close to the vine row. Can we do it in the middles? What what's kind of the strategy? Do you know?

Josiah Hunt 18:31

with vineyard applications, we've learned a lot over the past several years, and I want to, you know, provide a big shout out to Doug Beck with Monterey Pacific who has been instrumental in helping pilot you know, and pioneer, some some really successful applications of biochar and vineyards. In some of the early trials that we did. We found that with a pre plant, you know, with fresh plants going in the best utilization of biochar is in the planting row only Delve are plowed you know, right down the planting row only don't waste any the biochar on the surface broadcast. Keep it in the planting row only and take it to depth. That's one thing we learned. And so using biochar in pre plant has really shone as you're shown shown, shawn as past of shown I guess, is as a really successful way to utilize biochar, it helps get the plants up. And we've been seeing significant yield benefits, where the biochar has been plowed down the planting row. And the application rate in that we found to be quite successful is in the range of about a half percent organic matter equivalent in those field trials. Now, that doesn't mean that's the only successful application. That's just one that we identified early on as being quite successful.

Craig Macmillan 19:45

Are you familiar with or do you think there are ways to do things post planning?

Josiah Hunt 19:50

For post planting there's been a number of different approaches, and I can't say if I've seen any single approach rise to the top as being In the winner, and I think this might be due to how many different management practices there are after the vine's planted, which I think have a wider spectrum of variety than than the planting process itself. And so something that Monterey Pacific has been working on is applying it to existing. And I guess I'm not sure how much of this they've published and how much needs to keep quiet. So I better hold my tongue I'm getting describing exactly what they're doing.

Craig Macmillan 20:30

So here's an example. So one of the things that I've heard from other people but I haven't seen anything on is that they make biochar which when asked you about they make biochar and then they, they grind it essentially, or they break it up and then they mix it with compost, and then they they band that on in the vine or like they would have compost. Anyway, all they've done those, they've added some biochar to it, but it sounds like the incorporation is really crucial.

Josiah Hunt 20:53

Yes, you nailed it. That's it. That's how they're doing it. So basically, what what a lot of the folks are doing with compost applications in existing, they're simply just incorporating biochar as part of that. So rather than looking at doing compost, only, they're doing a biochar amended compost and applying the same method, and this works out really well.

Craig Macmillan 21:15

It does work out well. Okay, so I was gonna say it sounds like there may be some limitations there. But there are some benefits.

Josiah Hunt 21:20

Yeah, no, this works out really well, the biochar you blend it up with the compost, it flows through the equipment, no problem. And there's a lot of synergy to biochar and compost working take they work really well together. That that basically captures it however, using compost, you can consider including biochar as a portion of that. And then what portion becomes a really interesting question. A lot of people have been kind of in the range of between 10% to 30%. By weight when they're doing maintenance. That's the range that I most commonly see.

Craig Macmillan 21:52

So let's say I'm interested in this either as a pre plant or maybe as abandoned, I need to go with compost, can I make my own? And if so, what materials do I need? And what can I do? How hard is it to make biochar myself from a vineyard or winery? What do I what do I need to do this?

Josiah Hunt 22:06

Making biochar yourself by hand in the vineyard is it's hard work. But it's totally it's it's not rocket science, it can be done with some fairly rudimentary approaches. Commonly, what's done now is when a when a vineyard is gonna get ripped out, they'll go and they'll push all the piles up metal vines, the whole thing that push all the piles up right after harvest, and then they're gonna be aiming to replant by March, you know, replant several months later. Now, this is really tricky here, this is the biggest problem, because yes, you can make biochar to that material. But with that much moisture content in the biomass, it's gonna be really hard to do that. To do it in a rudimentary fashion, one of the easy ways to do this would just be push up those big piles, let them dry, which kind of requires that you fallow for a year, and then you come back the following year. And you can do what's called a conservation burn, essentially, it's the same thing. But instead of lighting the pile from the bottom on the inside, you just do a top lit pile. So you light it from the top, and then the flame starts at the top and the heat causes the wood underneath it to volatilize releasing its gases and the flame consumes all the gas is as it as it comes down. And it also kind of then works as a protector of the charcoal that's created. This conservation burn approach is cleaner burning. And if you quench it at the right time, you can get a significant amount of charcoal, but it does require that your vines have to be dry, which is in most cases that we've seen. It's going to take a year of fallow to get there.

Craig Macmillan 23:40

So I could do it with vine material.

Josiah Hunt 23:42

You can do it vine material, you can do it in the field without any fancy equipment other than just doing a top down burn, which just takes a little bit of a slightly different approach to it. And there's been some some farms that have really been doing a good job with this Kendall Jackson hosted a little workshop or something on this down in in the King City area a couple years ago, a lot of different vineyards that whose names are escaping me right now have been tinkering around with this method of biochar production, it's fairly easy, but it does require a fallow period and let that material dry. The other would be to potentially grind up that material and take it to another location where you could have a centralized biochar production facility. But the difficulty particularly in vineyards is is the metal content you just got you got a lot of of wires and steaks in there. And that makes that makes it tough.

Craig Macmillan 24:32

How would he do things need to be? Can I do this with landscaping waste? Can I do it with grasses? How much lignin do I need? How well would he do this step up to be?

Josiah Hunt 24:45

That's a great question. You know, you can make biochar with omega with biosolids, you know, which is not very woody. It'll just have very different characteristics. So woody biomass will have different characteristics than say grass biomass, the grassy based biochar can actually be really interesting materials, particularly because you have those monocots you have those really long, you know, the different type of vascular tissue. And so monocots makes some really interesting biochar, in my opinion. And you know, part of the question gets to what's the best use so if you have grass clippings, generally you have quite a bit of nitrogen content and grass clippings might be more beneficial in a composting pathway to because when you burn something to make biochar, it's hard to keep the nitrogen around a good chunk of that nitrogen is going to leave during the burning process. So sometimes you take your grassy materials and you manures and those can make good materials for anaerobic digestion and or composting, and then the materials that are kind of more woody content, harder to compost, and therefore, often prime candidates for biochar production, but you can use most any of it.

Craig Macmillan 25:48

That is fascinating and encouraging. I think there's a lot to be done here. It sounds like not only are we getting some science, we're getting some experience. And now we're also getting some application. I think that's really, really great. And that's a big part of any aspect of farming is people have to have some science to base it on, but then they have to try it. And it sounds like that trying is happening. And that's really, really exciting. Really, really encouraging. Is there one piece of advice or one thing that you would tell a grower related to biochar one thing say, Hey, that's a great idea. Here's either why or here's what you might want to do.

Josiah Hunt 26:17

No pressure, no pressure, no.

Craig Macmillan 26:21

I like putting you on the spot.

Josiah Hunt 26:24

The one thing Oh, my gosh.

Craig Macmillan 26:25

Career, take your entire career, boil it down to like two sentences.

Josiah Hunt 26:31

Biochar has shown to be an investment in your soil infrastructure, in that adding nitrogen is like fuel. You know, it's like putting fuel in the tank, whereas adding biochar is more akin to an infrastructure investment that is not necessarily putting fuel in the tank, but it's going to improve your fuel efficiency so that you can increase your ratio of output versus input with rising cost of fertilizer questions on the availability of water that becomes increasingly valuable. And I think those are the primary reasons why an investment in biochar would want to be considered.

Craig Macmillan 27:12

And I think that's great advice. And I think that's a really good way to look, we're not talking about a, an input the same way that we might think about something that, you know, goes away, this is an investment in infrastructure. And I think it's a really good way to think about it. Um, where can people find out more about you and what you do?

Josiah Hunt 27:27

The website for the company is Pacificbiochar.com. We've got a lot of information, I think we definitely have some room to improve how how well organized the information is, but there's quite a bit there. We've been working with vineyards for quite a number of years. And throughout the website, there are sprinkled different bits of information and case studies about some of the vendors that we've worked with.

Craig Macmillan 27:48

Yeah, and I want to underline that definitely, there's a lot of great information, including webinars and articles, the meta analysis that you've mentioned, it's a really great resource, and I encourage people to check it out.

Josiah Hunt 28:01

Yeah, we have a whole section on white papers and stuff that we've produced, you know, benefits of biochar and agriculture and, and other white papers that we've produced specifically to try and help provide these resources.

Craig Macmillan 28:11

Well, that's about all the time we've got. I want to thank Josiah Hunt, Founder and CEO of Pacific Biochar Benefit Corporation for being our guest today. Please check out their website, check out our website. They'll be more links and information, all kinds of resources there. As always, thank you for listening to Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team thanks Josiah.

Josiah Hunt 28:31

You bet Thank you Craig.

Can you hear my dog drinking water from the water bowl? He's a super he's like a water buffalo drinks a lot and loud.

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Composting is taking diverse organic material and making a habitat for the microbes that will process the material. Jean Bonhotal, Director of Cornell Waste Management Institute in the Department of Soils and Crop Sciences explains that there are three necessary ingredients to make a great compost. First, the pile should start with carbon-like woodchips to help move air through. Second, add in wet waste like food or pomace. And third, top the pile with carbon.

The most important factor in making compost is temperature. In fact, you do not need to turn piles. The organisms that break down compost generate temperatures that are about 90 to 150 degrees Fahrenheit. A great example of this is seen in mortality composting, used for livestock. These piles are created by layering 24 inches of woodchips, followed by the animal, and top with another 24 inches of wood chips. The animal will liquefy and then everything starts to mix as the microbes work. In 12 to 24 hours the pile will reach the desired 130 degrees Fahrenheit.

While compost is not technically a fertilizer it has numerous benefits including imparting nutrients, pest resistance, helping with erosion control, and improving water holding capacity because it works like a sponge. Listen in to hear Jean’s best advice on how to create great compost.

References: * 1/20/2023 REGISTER: Improving Soil Health with Compost & Vermiculture Tailgate * 53: Producing Compost and Carbon Sequestration * 106: What? Bury Charcoal in the Vineyard? * 151: The Role of the Soil Microbiome in Soil Health * 153: The Role of Nematodes in Soil Health * Aerated Compost Tea * Composting Handbook * Compost Use for Improved Soil Poster Series * Improving and Maintaining Compost Quality * Niner Wine Estates * SIP Certified * Testing Composts * Tipsheet: Compost * Vineyard Team – Become a Member * What Is Animal Mortality Composting?

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

My guest today is Jean Bonhotal. She is Director of the Cornell Waste Management Institute. And he's also a Senior Extension Associate in the Integrative Plant Science Soil and Crop Science Section at Cornell University. And we're talking about compost today. Thanks for being here, Jean.

Jean Bonhotal 0:13

Thank you.

Craig Macmillan 0:14

I like to start with basics when we're talking about a topic. And sometimes it seems kind of silly, but it oftentimes shapes what we talk about. Let's start with a very basic definition. What exactly is compost.

Unknown Speaker 0:26

So I'm going to start with a definition before I get into composting, and that is what is organic, what is organic? When I'm using the term organic, this is what it will mean something that was once alive and is now dead, and needs to be managed. That comes with all different types of quality. But we are usually looking for clean feedstocks, that are organic in origin. So we don't want glass and plastic and other materials that really don't break down and have put a lot of plastic into our environment, because they break down into little tiny pieces, and they're still there. So I'll start with that. Composting is basically taking organic material, all different diverse, organic materials, preferably, and making a habitat for microbes, the microbes that are going to process these materials. When we're composting, we can do all of the work mechanically. But it doesn't really work that well because composting is a process. And if we set it up so that we have our carbon and nitrogen ratios, well balanced. And those are browns and greens, wet and dry materials. So those are the things that we need to balance, then we will have a proper habitat for the microbes to work in and they will thrive. The microbes are what make the heat in a compost. When we're composting very small volumes, we don't always have heat. And that's because we don't have the volume that we need for that composting to happen in commercial scale, we generally will have enough volume. So as long as we balance that carbon and nitrogen, we will have a very good compost that will actually work mostly by itself.

Craig Macmillan 2:29

So you need different kinds of microbes for taking action on different types of materials, whether they be high nitrogen or high carbon or whatever. Where did those bacteria and fungi, where do those come from?

Jean Bonhotal 2:40

They come from everywhere. They come from us breathing on the medium that we're putting in there they come from the air, their bio aerosolized is what we consider. So these things blow in, and we really don't have to inoculate most composts. The only reason we might need to inoculate a compost is because we've shut it down. Either we've put something in there that's too toxic for the organisms to work with, or we've made it too hot in that pile. The organisms that we're working with are thermophilic organisms, they generate temperatures that are about 90 to 150. And the actual range for thermophilic is more like 130. Those are the temperatures that we really like to reach 130 to 150 is really degrees Fahrenheit is really the temperatures that we want to heat want to reach.

Craig Macmillan 3:42

And that's because those are the ranges where these particular microbes are the most happy.

Jean Bonhotal 3:46

Yes, and the microbes are actually generating the heat. It's like putting 55th graders in a room you don't have to heat. They're giving off lots of energy and have to do anything else. They're doing the work and metabolizing all of that material.

We were talking about a range, what if we're not generating enough heat? What kinds of things happen then? Or what can we do to change that?

Well back up because that is dependent on size. So we have to have that volume and that and if we look at physics, that volume is three by three by three feet cubed. However, when we're working in cold climates, that is not large enough. So everything will freeze really, we have to have everything so perfect with that three by three by three cube that we're not likely to reach those temperatures. So it's really balancing the carbon and nitrogen the moisture. And because if like in arid climates where everything dries out horribly, we need to make sure there's enough moisture retained in that because these are aerobic organisms that are doing all the work. And we really need to make sure that they have that moisture, or else they can't really work. People think that worms make compost, and to an extent they do, there's vermicompost. And it's a different than thermophilic composting that I'm talking about. But Vermacomposting is done with epigeic worms. It's done in a 24 inch bed. So you're making that compost in kind of a shallow bed so that it won't heat up, because the worms are actually doing all of the work in that system. When worms come into a compost, or thermophilic compost, that's at the end of the process, they can't tolerate the heat in the thermophilic process. But they do like to process those organisms that are in there. So they will go in and actually process some of that material toward the end. And in some ways, you can tell that you have a more finished compost, because worms are actually able to thrive in there.

Craig Macmillan 6:07

Where did the worms come from?

Jean Bonhotal 6:09

Generally from the ground, if you're composting in a vessel, you're not going to have worms in there unless you had like warm eggs or something that were already in the medium, and hatched or something like that. So that's where those are coming from. So like indoor facilities generally wouldn't have an earthworm coming in and processing. And the epigeic worms are surface feeders, so they're coming up, they detect that something's up there to eat. And they'll just come to the surface, eat it, pull it down, up and down, you know, they can actually handle above 54 degrees, where a lot of worms dry out and die there. As they get if it gets too hot, and they get too dry.

Craig Macmillan 6:57

You had mentioned the right mix or blend the right kind of connection of different materials and other recipes that that work for certain practical applications are given certain materials, you want certain ratios, how does that work?

Jean Bonhotal 7:10

There are recipes out there. But basically, you have to look at everything as carbon and nitrogen. So if you're a vineyard that wants to compost, the pumice, all your all your promise while you're squeezing all that kind of material, then you're gonna have to look at that and figure out whether that's going to work by itself, just that promise. But you do have grape skins, and you have grape seeds in there. So the grape skins and the grape seeds actually can work together to create a good habitat and actually make things work or you have a pH of about four or five in those pressings. That's going to deter worms for a while it is going to deter some other organisms for a while, but things will start to get going. And that's how we tend to do that. If it's really sloppy and wet, it would be better to add a little bit more waste, but another waste, marry it with another waste, whether you have some manure or you know the if there are some animals on site, if you can mix in manure, or some shavings, or I don't usually like to put wood chips in because it makes a coarser compost for a vineyard. And we want generally want to find our compost.

Craig Macmillan 8:30

Which actually reminds me of something. There were two things that I had learned and that they may not be true when I was coming up and we're talking like 20 years ago. One was that you had to have manure as part of the mix, some kind of a manure there was one and then the second one was forget about using any kind of wood chip vines, anything like that, because they're not going to break down. And that's not going to work. So how is that accurate for either this ideas?

Jean Bonhotal 8:54

No, we have to use all of our carbon sources. Honestly, we do have to use all different carbon sources in different types of composting. I'll give you an example of facilities that by regulation, they're only allowed to compost leaf and yard waste. So they're not allowed to bring in food unless they have a permit to bring in food waste. So there's a lot of different rules that occur over municipalities. Some municipalities got the idea because they needed more nitrogen, there's a lot of carbon and your dry leaves and your woodchips and your woody waste. And I generally will say if I make a pile of sticks, which is all carbon, so all all different sticks and just put them in a pile. If I go back six months later, what is it going to be?

Craig Macmillan 9:42

Dried sticks?

Jean Bonhotal 9:43

A pile of sticks, because I don't have any real nitrogen there is nitrogen in there but I don't have enough in there to make that break down. So I do like to size reduce those chips, the woody waste and that's chipping off or grinding or something like that. And that will make things go better. If you need to compost just leaves, what the municipalities were doing was adding chemical fertilizer to them. Because the chemical fertilizer would bring the nitrogen in, you have to decide do you want to use the chemical nitrogen, the chemical fertilizer, or not in your process, but that will make it work because their carbon and their nitrogen, and we can do that.

Craig Macmillan 10:27

Do I need to do some analysis on these materials and figure out what I actually have and then make calculations from there.

Jean Bonhotal 10:33

So the ratios that we want to use are two to three to one. So I have a good picture of a bucket. And it could be any bucket, think of a cottage cheese container up to us eight yard bucket, I want one bucket of wet material, a very wet material. And then three buckets of very dry material. That's how we balance those ratios. But we are really some of it is like It's like making bread, we don't dump all the flour and all the water in at one time, we put in a little bit of time, because we need to balance out what that recipe actually needs. And the same thing happens in composting, the operators get very good at knowing, okay, that's really, really dry material. And that's really, really wet material. And I might even need to make because we can compost liquids, I might need to make a bowl to put that liquid in there or that really wet material in there so that it can stay in the pile. So I can use that moisture, mix it with the woody waste, and allow that to happen.

Craig Macmillan 11:42

This is beginning to get kind of intimidating. I was kind of hoping that I just would throw a bunch of stuff in a pile and walk away and come back and magically I now have compost. Yeah, how do I figure this out, I guess we're gonna get my education?

Jean Bonhotal 11:58

So one of the ways we do small scale composting is we layer the materials in so we'll have a bin and we'll put carbon down at the bottom, make sure we have a good carbon layer because that's going to act as an air plenum on the bottom. So simple, just woodchips a pallet, something that's going to allow air to come in, then we'll put nitrogen or put in our wet waste, our food waste, our pumice, those materials, we're going to put carbon on top of that. So we never should be able to see what we're composting, it should always look like a pile of comp of compost. But I will talk a little bit about mortality composting and how we do that, because it really tells us how the whole thing is supposed to work. And what we do is we put down 24 inches of woodchips, then I'll put a cow in. And then I'll put 24 inches of woodchips over top of that, what happens in that is the cow starts to liquefy. And then it starts to mix with all of the material, all the all the microbes are starting to work. And everything starts mixing together in a very slow motion in 12 to 24 hours, I should have 130 degrees Fahrenheit in that pile. If I don't, then I've built it wrong. But generally even with we're composting right now with frozen animals, and we're able because of the size of our piles, we're able to do that, that heats up. So whatever the pile is, or the windrow is that heats up, and then the heat rises, and it actually convex around that that medium. So the organisms are getting all that and we don't have to do any turning. We don't have to turn at all. So we don't always turn and if I do that layering like I was talking about in a bin, if we layer it in a bin, then we will be able to do that and walk away and just let the rain and snow fall on it through the season. It'll be slower, but it will compost.

Craig Macmillan 14:11

So again, I had been under the impression that you always have to you have a regular schedule, you have to turn it to aerate it. And you also have to monitor the moisture. No you do not.

Jean Bonhotal 14:19

No. No. The only real tool that we use is temperature. We monitor temperatures in piles, we can tell everything that's going on in that pile is that making sure that it's working well or we need to add more water or we need to whatever we can tell that by temperature.

Craig Macmillan 14:39

If the temperature is getting too high. What do you do?

Jean Bonhotal 14:41

I do compost in arid places where our temperatures can get really high because our piles are too big. Okay, and then we really have to be careful because we can have spontaneous combustion. And our large ones I worked with some facilities in Idaho that around the Boise area, and they were in danger of combusting. And as they were like, what do we do? Well, if we add a lot of air real fast, we're going to be in trouble. If we add a lot of water real fast, we're going to be in trouble. So what we do is we, we will break those piles carefully, break those piles down, just deconstruct those, lay them in sheet, and then just make sure that they've cooled off, then we can build a pile again, but it can be a problem in hot and arid climates. And it can happen anywhere there are different manures like poultry manure will burn more easily than other manure because of the ammonia contents. Because of the just the nature of that material.

Craig Macmillan 15:45

What kind of temperatures are we talking about?

Jean Bonhotal 15:47

When we're getting over 170? I get nervous, especially if it's really hot, ambient temperature. We have to be careful about that.

Craig Macmillan 15:56

Excellent. Okay, that's useful. That's that we can keep that we can track that ourselves. Now, before we run out of time. We have time I just want to get to this topic, because I think there's a lot here. Now, oftentimes, compost is treated like a fertilizer, you say, oh, there's nutrients here. And we're doing it for that reason. But compost will do a lot of other things for you in terms of your soil.

Jean Bonhotal 16:18

Yes, and compost is not technically a fertilizer. So if I have a finished compost, it's not a fertilizer and doesn't follow the fertilizer rules. So there are rules that govern fertilizers and rules that cover compost, and so we have to be careful about that. So it does impart nutrients to our soil compost does impart nutrients to our soil, it helps with erosion control, it helps with water holding capacity, because compost acts like a sponge, and it will pull that moisture into the soil. And then the plants are able to use that when things get droughty. So we really want to use a lot of compost, if in my dreams, I would like to have three inches of compost spread on the whole terrestrial earth. Because I think we need it, it's the only way we can create or recreate our sustainable soils, our soils are very much bankrupt, we might put nutrients back on those soils, but we don't put the organic matter back on the soils, were able to take more of the corn crop. So less gets tilled in, and less of that organic matter is there so we don't have sustainable soils because of that. And compost can help us create and generate sustainable soils so that we don't have to do that. We don't have to constantly add fertilizer.

Craig Macmillan 17:49

Now that leads me to a couple of other things. So in terms of application in vineyards, it's very common to band compost right under the vines in the vine round and not in the middle. Some folks are experimenting with full on broadcasting across the whole surface, right and this has worked really well in range land contexts, which is interesting. And then there's a question about whether compost needs to be incorporated into the soil or does it need to be cultivated in what are your feelings about that for you know, a soil that's maybe a clay soil relatively dry.

Jean Bonhotal 18:23

I'll talk specifically for vineyards on this some vineyards will start their new plants their starts with like some vermiompost. And vermicompost is a pretty popular product to use when we're putting our starts in. And these are like five year old vines that are just getting planted. And we really want these guys to go. So that will help with nutrients. It will help with soil aggregation, it will just make healthy soil. I have had a poster up before as because it says compost don't treat your soil like dirt. And that's really what we want to do. We want to compost we want to add compost so that we're not just dealing with mineral soils. And I think it's really important for us to be thinking about that way. So the adding a you know, an eight ounce cup of compost vermicompost into the holes is supposed to work very well. And a lot of people in California have actually experimented with that. From what I'm told. What their plant responses are, I haven't followed those. So I don't know. Broadcasting I've seen people more put it in the row middles so that they don't end up with a lot of bull wood in their vines because if they get the nutrients up against the vines at the wrong time, that can be problematic. So sometimes they'll even take immature compost and put that in the row middles. That keeps keeps grass down keeps weeds down, you'll still have some cover there. But then it slowly works its way into the vineyard.

Craig Macmillan 20:06

When you're referring to row middles you mean under the vine?

Jean Bonhotal 20:09

I mean, between the, the rows.

Craig Macmillan 20:11

Between the vines. Okay.

Jean Bonhotal 20:12

Yeah, I've seen that done a lot in New York, where people are using it that way. And sometimes we'll use an immature compost because that we call it a killer compost, which we shouldn't, but it kills the area, and it won't encourage the growth in the row middles. And it keeps it a little bit away from the vine for a little while, then by the next season, that's all integrated into that soil system.

Craig Macmillan 20:39

Fascinating. Fascinating. Now, what do you think about banding underneath the vine?

Jean Bonhotal 20:43

By banding, you mean just putting it right against the wood?

Craig Macmillan 20:48

Generally, just underneath the vine, not in the middle, the strategy there, I think is I'm trying to get a higher concentration, if you will, and I want to put it where the vine roots are going to be in. So they're going to be predominantly in the vine row, not not exclusively, but they're gonna be that's where the highest concentration of roots is going to be. So the idea is, hey, if I'm going to put five tons per acre on, let me put it on in a narrow band, like 18 inches, as opposed to, you know, eight feet, you know, in terms of in terms of width, it sounds like you're kind of more interested, if you would kind of recommend, you know, putting it in the middle as opposed to under the vine.

Jean Bonhotal 21:21

I don't have enough experience with grapes to recommend. So I'm not going to make that recommendation. This is what I'm seeing in the vineyard, the way the growers are choosing to actually experiment and see what is getting the nutrients to the plant at the right time. So what strategy is, is working best. Using the vermicompost in the hole that's been very productive using some of the row middles. I'm not sure about banding I have no experience with that. So I don't want to speak on that. I'm more of the compost production cleaning up the best person. You know, what, when we get the calls, this pile over here, stinks by the neighbor, then I step in and and try to get everything more productive.

Craig Macmillan 22:13

That makes sense that makes tons of sense. One other application that I do think you can speak to is erosion control. What role can compost have an erosion control.

Jean Bonhotal 22:22

We do a lot of work with compost, and I'm gonna share with you some posters that will give you simple compost use instructions. We work in agriculture, we work in erosion control, we work in urban garden gardens and farms. So there's all different possibilities with all different compost and every compost, even the compost that aren't the quality that we want for our vineyard. Every compost has a potential use, even if it's just daily covering a landfill, so that we've taken those metals or those that toxicity out of the environment, and at least concentrated it in smaller places so that maybe it can be recovered at some point when we figure that kind of stuff out.

Craig Macmillan 23:07

And the way this is working is that the compost is binding this soil somehow or is it reducing the impact of the raindrops or what's the mechanism.

Jean Bonhotal 23:17

We do both compost blankets and compost socks and erosion control. So the compost blankets we have blower trucks that can spray compost, it's a big big hose, we spray compost onto a hillside, when we put that blanket down. When the rain comes if the rain comes in, it hits the soil, it hits the soil and it makes mud and that mud starts running down the hill. And that's erosion. When it hits the compost, the compost acts like a sponge. And that sponge will just keep sucking in that moisture. And then slowly release it like a sponge will. And so the plants can use it better and it doesn't create those rivulets and the erosion that other things do.

Craig Macmillan 24:10

What kinds of rates per acre per square yard or what are we talking about?

Jean Bonhotal 24:15

For it depends on per crop. When we put a blanket down, we'll put in out about a inch blanket. So that's a visual, and we want to make sure that it's well covered I'd put one or two inches down easily, because that will start incooperating. Remember I told you about those worms? The worms will come up and start processing some of that material. And that'll only be incorporated in the soil in that way. So we don't actually incorporate we will seed put the blanket down and then we might hydro seed on top of that blanket. And that'll create cover some kind of cover crop whether it depends on our goals. We'll put whatever cover crop we might put red clover on our roadside we might put, you know, depends on where we are what we're putting in, but usually a low grow local plant. So we don't want to take you know, a plant from New York and put it in California, it's not going to produce the same way. We want to make sure that we are in the right conditions. We have the right plantings and all that and Soil and Water Conservation Districts which are all over the country. They give you guidance on what should go on to slopes. What should go into row middles, it depends on the plants though, and cooperative extension does a lot of that, what application do we need for what crop. One of the things that we are finding with soil blends and stuff when we're trying to bring in topsoil topsoil has lots of different definitions, a lot of times it's sand. Because we can't get topsoil, it's very difficult, we've used up a lot of our topsoil, and we don't have that rich earth to bring to someplace else to put that topsoil down. So we're working right now on grow tests to look at what percentage of compost should be mixed with the mineral soil, or with close to mineral soil or with the soil existing soil. And one of the things that we're finding is that we can really use in most for most crops, and for soil sustainability to build those soils, we can use about 50% compost in all of those, and we're getting really good results with crops. It does depend whether we're growing cabbages or grapes, or we really need those soils to be more sustainable. If our soils are sustainable, they'll increase the water holding capacity, you know, through the compost application, but they also help with pest resistance. So we'll have more pest resistance, because we have healthy soils, we have more competitors that are actually able to take things out instead of working in a chemical system where okay, the cut worms came in, and the cut worms are really happy to be working in. There's nothing telling them not to. And similarly with powdery mildews and some of the other diseases, we seem to have better results with having a healthy soil. So not just dust that we've added fertilizer to.

Craig Macmillan 27:32

Sure. And that makes total sense of any there are a lot of folks that are looking at this kind of a holistic plant science, plant physiology approach, which is what you're talking about. And there's a lot of exciting things going on and talking about compost being a part of it is really cool, basically at aout of advice or what one thing would you like people to know as far as their own compost production goes.

Jean Bonhotal 27:58

If you're producing compost, you're a microbe farmer. And that's what you really need to consider create a habitat that they're going to thrive in, and they'll do all the work for you. And that is my best piece of advice to anybody.

Craig Macmillan 28:14

That's great. And where can people find out more about you and your work?

Jean Bonhotal 28:17

I'm with Cornell Waste Management Institute at Cornell University. You can you can google us pretty easily.

Craig Macmillan 28:25

It's easy to find information about you. Yeah, and about the CWMI. So our guest today was Joan Bonhotal. She is the director of the Cornell Waste Management Institute. And she's also Senior Extension Associate with the Integrative Plant Science Soil and Crop Science section at Cornell University. Lots of great stuff is gonna be in the show notes. Again, we encourage you to look into this topic. It's exciting. There's a lot going on. Wouldn't you agree there's a lot of new science every year on this topic.

Jean Bonhotal 28:51

There is a lot a lot going on in composting, a lot going on in sustainable soil production and if we have sustainable soils, we will be able to grow healthy food and sustain healthy people. So there's just so much going on with all applications of composting.

Craig Macmillan 29:12

Very exciting.

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Did you know that telling your sustainability story can help you sell more wine?

Today we share three ways you can build a strong brand so that your customers will remember you.

Kathy Kelly, Professor of Horticultural Marketing and Retail Business Management at Penn State University found that describing specific practices and why there are important not only sets you apart from the competition but helps to create an emotional connection with your customers. It can even increase their willingness to pay more for a bottle of sustainable wine!

Elements of a brand "Brand identity" is the personality of your business -- it's what people think about when they think of your brand. "Brand awareness" refers to general familiarity with your brand. Both concepts should be taken into consideration when creating a branding strategy. By cultivating recognition and understanding of your brand through design, messaging, and more, you can make your business and your customer experience more memorable.

Your brand's name, logo or symbol, tagline, colors, imagery, voice, and more -- this is how your brand is presented to the outside world. Maximize your brand experience by dialing in these key brand features.

3 ways to build a strong brand What makes you so special? Every wine brand has its unique story. Whether it's a business passed down the generations of a family, a hobby that grew into a booming business, what started out as a weekend project for a couple of friends, or a drive to fill a hole in the industry, identifying what makes your brand different from the rest and including elements of this story into your communications and imagery is a great way create a more personal connection with your customers.

Understand your supporters Define your target audience to help dial in the kind of messaging you want to send through your branding efforts. Do you want to create a playful feel with your brand? Are you after a more sophisticated and elegant aura? Talk to your clients and return customers about why they support your business and what keeps them coming back. Pay attention to the type of messages that seem to resonate most with your audience and clients through engagement and sales activity.

Consistency is key Create a consistent experience each time a customer interacts with your product or service. This will help to reinforce the personal connection to your brand and maintain a sense of familiarity. Communication channels to consider include your website, tasting room, email newsletters, social media, and packaging. The tone and spirit of your messaging should be consistent to keep your channels harmonized.

New year, new opportunities People want to support brands that share their values. Does your brand's messaging and imagery provide a clear sense of what your brand stands for and the kind of experience it wants to provide your clients?

The start of the new year gives us an opportunity to come back from the holidays with a refreshed perspective. It's a good idea to take some time to assess your brand's identity and be sure your messaging is in line with the impression you want to make. This can help you prepare for all of the opportunities in the year ahead to connect with new and returning customers!

Stay tuned for more Marketing Tip Mondays, where we will help you explore ways of incorporating your brand's specific sustainable practices into your messaging.

Check out the show notes for a link to the interview with Kathy Kelley, links to this article, research on consumer purchasing preferences, to download the seasons of sustainability PDF, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine * 3 Ways to Build a Strong Brand * Cover crops make vineyards more sustainable; strategy can be marketing tool * Kathy Kelley * Identifying wine consumers interested in environmentally sustainable production practices * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Penn State Extension Wine Business Management and Marketing * Seasons of Sustainability * SIP Certified * What Sustainability Means to Consumers by Morning Consult * Wine consumers’ willingness to adopt environmentally friendly packaging practices at tasting rooms: An ECHAID analysis

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Like with many projects on a sustainable farm, composting at Niner Wines Estates began with a problem; what could be done with all the pumice from the winemaking operations. Patrick Muran Winemaker at Niner Wine Estates started experimenting with thermal aerobic composting in 2016. With a 200-acre property, the farm has a diverse array of plant material coming from the restaurant garden, cover crops, and vineyards. Patrick explains how they turned a waste stream product into a valuable commodity including what temperature a compost pile must reach, what plant material to include, how to inoculate a new pile, and how long it takes to make top quality compost.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Patrick Moran, winemaker at Niner Wine Estates in Paso Robles, California. And today we're going to talk about composting. Welcome, Patrick.

Patrick Muran 0:07

Thank you, Craig. Happy to be here. And to talk about some compost today.

Craig Macmillan 0:11

Yes, we are. And in the spirit of full disclosure, I want to let everybody know that Patrick and I work together. So this is not the first time that we've talked about this. So I know about what we do. But we're gonna try to get into the details here and try not to forget anything. It's a really cool project that you, you kind of you founded. Correct. You kind of got this whole thing going, right?

Patrick Muran 0:31

Yeah, it was birthed out of a problem of what do we do with all this pumice waste and ruin to kind of a passion project of figuring out how to unlock the keys and composting all this waste that we had?

Craig Macmillan 0:49

So when did it start? How long have you been doing this?

Patrick Muran 0:52

So this started late 2016, early 2017, we start building piles, Gosh, 5, 6 years now?

Craig Macmillan 1:01

Yeah, in a minute. So the idea here was that you had a lot of waste that was coming in, or grape material that was coming in and you wanted to do something with it. What were you doing with it prior to accomplishing with it?

Patrick Muran 1:12

I mean, I've been at this now, gosh, almost 24 years, you know, when I started, we had our big 40 yard roll off dumpsters getting dropped off and are filling them up with grape waste and pumice and stems and all that kind of stuff. But you know, we're scheduling trucks and paying for these trucks to be on the road and do all this material and material is getting stinky out there in the yard, flies are starting to fester, we had, you know, a similar problem here. Here I'm paying for a truck to come drop off this dumpster that's going to kind of make a mess and in our yard for weeks on end. And then pay to have that material removed. It was a kind of an, I love elegant solutions in this was elegant solution to a problem where we can turn a waste stream product into you know, a valuable commodity.

Craig Macmillan 2:04

Did you have an experience with composting prior to that?

Patrick Muran 2:07

No, not to the degree of what we're doing now. My notion of composting was probably like most people's it's like, oh, just chuck it in a in a black container or something in the yard and forget about it for six months and then come back later. And all of a sudden, it's it's all done. That was more or less my notion of what composting was. But when you're talking thermoaerobic composting, to the NOP like organic standards, it's a little bit of a different feel.

Craig Macmillan 2:36

How did you educate yourself about this? This is interesting to me this is you went from zero to now 100.

Patrick Muran 2:41

Yeah. With Cal Poly, actually Cal Poly had an extension program. And they brought in Dr. Elaine Ingham, and she did a seminar on composting, thermalaerobic composting in particular. And it just blew my mind like because I'm I'm microbiologist by by schooling, you know, I spent my year in college studying microbiology, and she was talking my jam, like she was talking all the biology in the soils. And in this compost that was promoting plant growth. So she she really kicked me off on this path. And, and so I just started educating myself on how to do it properly, and how to the biology and the ecology that supports your plant that you're trying to grow.

Craig Macmillan 3:33

So did you already have a plan for what you were going to use this stuff for?

Patrick Muran 3:37

No, I just knew if it was done properly, we could definitely use it all over the place. Like all of a sudden you've got this thing that can grow. But we did have a target because we have were growing grapes in a world. Our compost is going to help support the life that grapevines.

Craig Macmillan 3:56

When you started, were you using just pomice or were you adding other material to it?

Patrick Muran 4:02

No, I learned pretty early on that the more diversity of your ingredients that go into that compost pile, the more diversity you'll have as far as microorganisms, bacteria and fungi and protozoa and all these these different layers of of organisms. And I figured out pretty early on that we're going to need a diverse stream of sources to kind of hit our target.

Craig Macmillan 4:28

And where did you source that stuff from? Was it from the property? Did you bring stuff in from the outside?

Patrick Muran 4:33

Yeah, I mean, we've got over 200 acres here. So with a with a garden, cover crop growing, you know, we've got kind of a diverse array of materials, it was just a matter of collecting them your and making sure they're kind of staged and ready to go.

Craig Macmillan 4:54

What's the timeframe from when you have let's say pomice from harvest until you have something that you can use?

Patrick Muran 4:59

Yeah, so the ideal timeline for promised to complete product is about 60 days minimum is 15. But 60 days is the point of which you get that rich, organic material that's consumed all it's easy foods, and you get a little more diverse array of microorganisms in there.

Craig Macmillan 5:20

Are you measuring the microorganisms? Are you sending samples out or something to get an idea of what's there?

Patrick Muran 5:26

Yeah, we were doing both I do it here, or I was doing counts like bacterial counts, and, and fungal counts kind of fungal biomass and bacterial biomass. It's a little labor intensive. And after doing it enough times, you can kind of get a good sense of what the populations are, by easy look under a microscope, we are also sending out to an outfit called Earth Fort where they'll do the assessment for us, and then just kind of give us the results.

Craig Macmillan 5:56

So is that how you know when it's done? Or is there other cues to you? You go, hey, all right, we're there now?

Patrick Muran 6:02

Yeah, the cues that I use really are color temperature and and sort of the touch and feel of it all he can you get a sense of that digestion is complete, and you get into a form that really does look, I mean, it looks like 70%, dark cocoa chocolate bar, you know, hit that. And the whole pile has a very consistent makeup. So it's just there, you know.

Craig Macmillan 6:30

So you mentioned easy foods, what would those maybe be in those are things that the microorganisms are consuming? Is that right?

Patrick Muran 6:37

I would go back a step, I think of this is a lot like making wine, you know, you have the materials, you're starting kind of an inoculum, or a biomass that is going to grow, that's going to consume the nutrients that are available. You know, as a winemaker, there's a lot of parallels in composting as there is to making wine, you know, tank size or vessel size can inform you on how much heat will be generated and how fast fermentation may complete. Same goes for composting, the size of the compost pile will dictate kind of the thermal insulation that can take place. So you can kind of create a lot of thermal mass and a big pile. The next step is food. You know, we think of these two simple nitrogen compost, you think the carbon to nitrogen ratios. So again, nitrogen is your food source, those readily consumable foods, sugars, for example, really, you know, feed into the bacterial populations that just want an easy hit of sugar, and they go, so those are going to be the easy foods, the more complex foods, and it's again, similar to, to fermentation, you've got diammonium phosphate, you're now your DAP is like just putting gasoline on a fermentation. And you have more complex organic foods like for fermato or whatnot, yeast derived but they're much more complex or not as readily available, and they'll take longer to digest and release that energy. So then you got your food source. So I think carbon to nitrogen ratios, composting, I think of yeast to simple nitrogen and fermentation.

Craig Macmillan 8:23

So you're using a lot of the same kind of conceptual ideas that you use for making wine for making compost, it's there's some similarities in terms of kind of functionality in your mind.

Patrick Muran 8:32

And figuring out the proportions of those different components. And kind of the momentum, you know, that can be generated by it is really the key to unlocking a successful compost operation, as it would be with a successful fermentation operation too.

Craig Macmillan 8:50

When I was first learning about this topic, there was like a recipe that you were supposed to kind of follow. And one of the elements there was manure, so you had to have manure in the mix doesn't sound like you're doing that because there's not cattle on site.

Patrick Muran 9:02

That's right. And we've stayed away from manure for the moment because we'd like to use whatever's available on the property. And high nitrogen can come from other things other than manure, which includes things like alfalfa, all your nitrogen fixing plants, alfalfa, some clovers, but also seeds have a fairly high nitrogen content, just so happens to be got a lot of those coming out of these fermenters. So we use seeds as a high nitrogen component, they act a little differently because they're kind of a slow burn as opposed as opposed to a fast burn. They definitely will contribute to that heat to that energy release that temperature zone that you're trying to hit.

Craig Macmillan 9:49

Do the seeds breakdown because I've seen pomice compost piles before where the seeds just didn't change. Do they break down for you?

Patrick Muran 9:56

Yeah, they do break down they're not they're not fully in kind of destructured, you know, they're still like this funny shell, they almost look like a popcorn, they swell a little bit and kind of spilled some of their guts, but kind of the shell sort of remains of the seed. So they definitely have a different look and feel than when they started. But they do add a nice volume filling component, something like perlite or something like that, you know, they kind of fill, fill out the compost, make it a little fluff here.

Craig Macmillan 10:29

So even though there's this material left behind actually has a role that actually does something for the way the pile behaves, and what it will do eventually, it sounds like. On the manure topic, we have a new aspect to the system, the ecosystem at Niner. And that's chickens. Have you thought about or are you using manure from the chickens?

Patrick Muran 10:48

Not yet, just because we haven't needed to. This is what the beauty of this whole system is, you're getting rid of this waste as it is, you know, you're getting rid of garden waste, when you throw it in a green waste bin or you throw it in a, you know, a compost pile, we're getting rid of chicken manure as you clean up the chicken house and things of that nature. So you're collecting it, so why not use it. So all of these different streams are going to come into play in the chicken manure will come into play as well. It's just a matter of getting the material there staging it to making sure using using the right proportions at the right time, we just so happened to have worked out a formula with what we have currently. That's really nice and consistent. And chicken manure will change it a little bit. So we'll have to tweak it a little bit to get everything just right.

Craig Macmillan 11:38

Another thing that I believe you've been bringing into the system is chipped grapevines, and also material from landscaping. Again, I was under the impression that things with high lignin did not compost very well. Have you started with that material? Or is are things happening? Are you looking at stuff what's happened in there?

Patrick Muran 11:54

Yeah, so the high carbon source. So that's things like any sort of wood material, wood chips, hedgings anything that's going to have a lot of that cellulose hemicellulose. Like those really difficult to digest components, those can definitely be incorporated. And we like a nice proportion of those because they are great fungal foods, and we're trying to grow fungi as well on these compost piles. Those are a great source of fungal foods. And those do decompose, they take a little longer, we can give a little more time to the compost piles in terms of digestion, because you'll get that fungal push towards the latter half of composting. As they start speeding off of those partially digested woody components and high carbon sources.

Craig Macmillan 12:50

Do you have to inoculate the piles?

Patrick Muran 12:52

You can totally kick them off if you make compost teas. And so basically you take a finished pile, make some tea, and then use that tea to inoculate a new pile that's like Like imagine and throwing it in, it's really kick things off. The other way is to simply just take a finished compost pile and use a small amount as an inoculum. Like you would fermentation an inoculant you with the yeast and innoculate you with all the stuff that I've grown up with this previous pile to get you started right away, or like a native ferment and you can kind of sit around and wait for it to it's kind of naturally get some momentum, it takes a little longer certainly get that going as well.

Craig Macmillan 13:38

What is your method here? So you're collecting material, and then you have to make it into a pile of some kind. And then you have to manage the pile? Right? So there's things like moisture and temperature, correct. What specifically are you doing to manage the pile? And specifically, what are you looking at in terms of the variables that tell you oh, I need to do this or that.

Patrick Muran 13:55

To start wit we start with about four different streams of materials. We're starting with wood chips, or woody material, high carbon source, we're starting with green waste, which is anything that was cut green. So garden waste that was cut green, we even took grass clippings from you know, when they mow or around here as long as it was green. That's going to be one stream. The other stream is going to be rake. So anything that came out of destemers, it's going to kind of live in one vein. And then lastly, we're going to do the skins and seeds. So anything that came out of a fermentation tank that was fully fermented so they don't now we have our seed component. So we just treat each one of those streams as a different source. And we'll compose it's about 40% of woody material and we consider the rake is of woody material. So we'll go rake plus wood chips that's going to compose about 40% of the material. The green waste stream is going to be about 30% of that material. Okay, so that's going to be in those green waste, clippings and whatnot. And then lastly, we'll use the last 30% of the seed, and skin material, all the pumps that came out of tanks as a string. So we're going to take those components in those proportions and assemble it and kind of mix it up, we make windrows out of this, and they're roughly four feet tall, four to five feet tall, and about eight feet wide, we're gonna try and mix this as well as you can, and get moisture in there. Moisture is really the thing that sets this whole stage up to digest. I mean, you like any living organism, like you can't live without water, neither can these organisms. And moisture really is the key component to keeping that. We're going to try and strive for about 40% humidity or 40% moisture content. That's a touch and feel thing. Like you can really get scientific on how much moisture goes into a pile. But really, once you learn touching, feeling, squeezing the material, you'll get a sense of moisture, Woody materials really difficult to soak up. So we try and pre wet that a little bit. Seeds and green waste usually has sufficient moisture content to get things started. So mix it into a pile, mix it into those windrows. And then we no longer have covering piles at this point. So we just let them be out there. But if you have the right components in the right size, moisture, and composition, they'll kick off, I mean, we'll be up to 130 in gosh, within three days, certainly, we'll be right into a nice thermal compost, and then we're going to be turning it and we use a bucket on a tractor. It's not ideal. Ideally, you have a compost turner that aerated and really does a nice job of mixing. But we felt we got we can get by with a with a bucket on it on a tractor. And we do it by just simply folding that pile laterally. So if you think of a windrow, like pointing down, basically, one direction, we're going to come in perpendicular to that windrow, take kind of the outside piece, we're going to fold it up over the top, then we're going to kind of try and pull the core which is the hottest piece. And that's going to be become kind of the back end of that windrow. So you're kind of taking these in different sections. A better way to put it is if you think of a triangle, cut it into four parts. So you're going to have like the two wings, the top in the core. So you're trying to get the inside core cycled out, and you're trying to get the wings, whether it's the top or the outside sides to become the core, say you're just trying to fold union. So you're cycling the material through the core, that's basically the key. It is temperature and moisture determined. Typically were like every three to five days, but you'll find it needs more rigorous turning in the beginning. And then you can kind of back off towards the tail end.

Craig Macmillan 18:18

When do you get the water in? And how do you do that? I've seen different solutions to that problem. What do you put it in? How do you do it?

Patrick Muran 18:25

We've tried multiple solutions to this, the ideal is very small droplets. Like that's the ideal if you can get up a fine misting spray, that would be the best solution. Getting moisture in we use a fire hose, a water wagon. And that fire hose is able to emit you know a fine spray. So we go in with a water wagon, fire hose and a pump just basically wet out all the outside and then immediately turn it that's kind of the key is not set. It's just trial and error to figure out how much water do I apply? You know how what does this need to get? And that just has taken us a little bit of time to understand. You know, in the beginning it is more difficult to wet up. In the end. It's it's much easier to wet up knowing when and how much to apply is kind of that's what's taken us time to learn.

Craig Macmillan 19:21

Yeah, practice. You mentioned temperature you mentioned 103 degrees Fahrenheit, what what are the temperature bounds? What do you have to hit? Why do you have to hit it? What's too hot? How often do you measure that? How do you measure it?

Patrick Muran 19:33

temperature requirements are over 131. 131 to 170 for a minimum of 15 days. And you have to turn a minimum of five times in that 15 days. We use just a long stainless temperature probe. It's three feet, even a PVC sleeve and basically inserted into the core each day just to see where you stand. And then you're we do that kind of along the windrow in different spots, and kind of get an average of what's happening throughout the pile. And then secondly, we dig a little gopher holes into it like basically trying to dig down, or to get a sense of what the moisture content is like. And so we'll go dig through these piles, see where they stand, see what the moisture contents like, and then make a determination as to whether it needs water and turning and whatnot.

Craig Macmillan 20:31

You just dig in there with your hand, you already have a tool?

Patrick Muran 20:35

Now, I mean, it's it's, like I said, it's kind of nice. It's a touchy feely kind of thing. And you get a real good sense of what the moisture content and the different layers you can you'll find like moisture sort of will reside on the outside, but the core can become kind of dry, because that's the hottest spot. So just using your your old hands to kind of get in there is sufficient.

Craig Macmillan 21:04

Oh, when I forgot ot ask, What do you been using the compost for? Where's the finished product been going?

Patrick Muran 21:09

Right? Yeah, that's kind of going both into our garden or vegetable garden that we use for the restaurant and out in the vineyard. So they're applying it both aspects. And then I'm also making some compost tea or extract that I'm using to apply in the vineyard as well. The whole idea is, is really biology, you're trying to build the biology to support the plant that you're wanting to grow. And this is a great way to get the microorganisms that do the nutrient cycling and promote water holding capacity of the soil, suppress weeds. I mean, it's it's there's so many wins in the successful application of compost in those microorganisms to the soil. It's pretty cool stuff.

Craig Macmillan 21:57

Are you measuring that to see if there's changes over the time? Like maybe you're doing some kind of trial or experiment?

Patrick Muran 22:03

Yeah, yeah, we're working on on trying to assess this from a biological standpoint, what we're doing, what type of impact is that making? And how do you quantify that? There's a lot of discussion on that right now, what organisms matter what organisms don't matter? What is that nutrient cycling? Like? are you introducing harmful organisms to the, to the process? Yeah, we're trying to get answers both from a metabolic standpoint, just like metabolically, what's the activity in that soil, and then we're also doing it just by cell counts, and biological counts out there. Ultimately, we'd like to see long term what the impact is on the vine, as well. So we're trying to segment out different different blocks in our vineyard and assess what the yield is like what the cane weights are like what you know, the growth is like, and possibly even water holding capacity of the soil in the future.

Craig Macmillan 23:08

What is the number one like challenge or obstacle that you've had to overcome with this whole program?

Patrick Muran 23:12

It's like anything, just just getting off the ground, you know, like trying, failing, trying and failing. Doing it over and over again, it did take some time to get comfortable with like these types of assessments because I don't have like the analytical tools like to do it. So there is a little bit of a touch feel component. So just being comfortable going out there and saying, we need moisture, we need 200 gallons on this pile, you know, it needs to be turned today, you know, that sort of stuff, keeping things from going anaerobic is is really key that promotes a loss of nutrients, organisms that that are not going to help your plan all these things and keeping things in an aerobic manner on that aerobic side is, is very important as well. So it's just trial and error and getting those compositions moisture and size.

Craig Macmillan 24:11

That sounds like patience is an important part of this little in the willingness to keep trying, which I think is an important.

Patrick Muran 24:17

Wine making should be a good base of knowledge because it's also an act of patience. You know, these these compost piles will take a couple of months. I mean, fermentations and aging takes a couple of years.

Craig Macmillan 24:30

I do love the overlap. I've never thought of it this way. But I really do love the love the idea that the kind of the training and experience in one field can apply to another than some of the same kind of concepts in terms of like, hey, I have something that's alive, and I need to keep it alive. And I need to be patient as it does its thing. It reminds me of like a sluggish fermat you just have faith. You're gonna get through it. You know, just keep keep trying and try different things. Is there one piece of advice that you'd give someone who to start producing compost on site, either at the vineyard or the winery.

Patrick Muran 25:03

Yeah, I mean, I, my advice would really be just to start, like just getting a sense of even a small pile, like something you can manage and screw up and not have much consequence, just start small. It will help inform you on, like how you can shift the dynamic, based upon what you add to it, you know how much moisture it takes to kind of get this thing together. And then also recognize when you scale, things are going to change a little bit, because the size is going to change and the whole, the whole dynamic is going to change when to scale to like a windrow size. Just as get started, like we started with wire, mesh kind of hardware cloth piles built on pallets basically and, and just learn from it. And it was a bit of work. But I mean, you could do a really small one in in the yard, just to get a sense of it, keeping it aerobic learning the kind of the warning signs of when things go anaerobic, keeping consistent moisture content, that kind of stuff, you'll know if you got it right, or you got it wrong. I mean, it's, it's pretty apparent. And we and we screwed plenty up and re composted, um, you know, a few times over each time you learn a little bit from the process.

Craig Macmillan 26:22

Where can people find out more about you and more about what you do.

Patrick Muran 26:25

I mean, as far as education goes, I would really reach out to either Davis or Cal Poly, find out what they're doing, they'll give you a nice baseline where to start, and maybe the education that can help you not learn the hard way, I would really go to those groups first. Obviously, there's a lot of online type of stuff. And this is this is a dangerous thing. So I would really pick maybe some organic standards, there's some good worksheets on making organic compost put out by the NOP like National Organic Standards and, and things of that nature, that would be a good place to start. Because you could go down a YouTube rabbit hole with thermal composting and the different ways I think that was my struggle to begin with was the subjectivity it became a subjective form. And it's like, wow, no, I think that there's a little more, there's a little more precision here that than just again, throwing it in a bucket and leaving it for six months. And coming back, there is a little more science to it.

Craig Macmillan 27:30

And I do want to underline that there is so much so much more information and much higher quality information than there wasn't even 10 years ago. And so there's a lot of resources out there. And I think you're right, you have to be selective and decide what stuff is useful. And going to folks that have you know, the background and the science behind it. And there's a lot of that there. And so that's, I think we're living in what's going to become a golden age of composting here. There's more and more people do it. And there's more and more experienced this more and more ways of trying it. I think that's really exciting. And I really compliment you for the work that you've put in and sticking with it because like you said, you have to be patient and you have to try things and you're gonna fail and you have to just keep going. That's how you learn. You know, you gotta you gotta crawl before you walk, walk before you run. But that's our time for today. Our guest today was Patrick Muran, winemaker at Niner Wine Estates where he's been composting material on site for quite a while now has learned a ton and I really appreciate you being on the podcast, Patrick.

Patrick Muran 28:22

Absolutely. Craig happy to happy to be here and happy to be supportive of anybody out there trying this and want to reach out to me do whatever I can to help steer you out of the potholes.

Craig Macmillan 28:35

Well, we will have a lot of information also on the end links on the site. So there's a lot of resources out there.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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"In North America, and the U.S. particularly, sustainability has grown from a nice-to-have to a key trigger for consumers," according to Food Business News.

Today we share three places where you can create a story narrative around your sustainable practices to drive sales.

Online Consumers are increasingly using the internet and social media to find and share their favorite brands. So, bolster up your website like these two brands.

Castoro Cellars has a dedicated page on their website complete with a video showcasing their solar arrays, an image of their recent environmental award, and an explanation on what sustainable agriculture is.

Another great example is the Farming for the Future blog post by Pisoni Vineyards. This article includes beautiful photography of their insectary, the tools they use to reduce water, and how they care for their team by providing competitive wages, health insurance, and excellent training.

Your website is the perfect place to showcase the sustainable practices that you use. Talk with your farmer, winemaker, owner, and the whole team to gather up stories that are specific to your brand. Pair them with nice photography to give your customers a peek behind the scenes of your great wine. If you are SIP Certified, you can also include the logo on your website with a link to the SIP Certified website to encourage shoppers to learn more about your practices and the requirements for certification.

Off-Premise You can also showcase your sustainability off-premise. These channels include any place your wine can be seen outside of your winery or tasting room.

With so many consumers purchasing from physical retail outlets and online stores, it's clear that promoting your message of sustainability on your physical product or at the store shelf is vital. Work with retailers to set up a sustainable wine section or to add shelf hangers with information on sustainability below your bottles. Of course, if you are SIP Certified you can include the logo on your wine label as well.

Food and Beverage Insights reports third-party certification is increasingly important with consumers; “The idea of 'responsible consumerism' is growing as Americans are turning their dollars toward companies and brands that are backed by a commitment to bettering the planet for generations to come.”

Staff Training Don’t forget to train your team. Your customer-facing staff are the front lines for consumer education.

Training them to speak about your sustainable actions is easy! We offer a free online training course that anyone can complete to brush up on all things sustainability. It even includes a fun quiz to test your knowledge.

If you love these episodes, they are another great way for your team to learn about effective ways to incorporate the message of sustainability into everyday customer-facing conversations. If you did not know, we also offer these in a newsletter format so you can sign up to get marketing tips delivered right to your inbox twice a month.

If you want to learn more about how storytelling can help you sell more wine, check out our interview with Kathy Kelley of Penn State University. She explains how understanding why people drink wine allows you to use their attitudes and behaviors to improve your marketing to keep your customers coming back.

Check out the show notes for a link to the interview with Kathy Kelley, links to this article, research on consumer purchasing preferences, to download the seasons of sustainability PDF, and sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine * Cover crops make vineyards more sustainable; strategy can be marketing tool * Kathy Kelley * Identifying wine consumers interested in environmentally sustainable production practices * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Penn State Extension Wine Business Management and Marketing * Seasons of Sustainability * SIP Certified * What Sustainability Means to Consumers by Morning Consult * Wine consumers’ willingness to adopt environmentally friendly packaging practices at tasting rooms: An ECHAID analysis

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Understanding why people drink wine allows you to use their attitudes and behaviors to improve your marketing to keep your customers coming back. This research is exactly what Kathy Kelley, Professor of Horticultural Marketing and Retail Business Management at Penn State University loves to do. In her studies, she has found that sustainability is very important to customers however it can mean different things to different people. While 7 out of 10 adults in the United States consider purchasing food and beverage with a sustainability component a priority, one-fourth of these respondents could not articulate sustainability. This gives the industry a great opportunity to better communicate what sustainability means.

Communicating sustainability should be incorporated into a brand's DNA from point A to point B through all marketing channels including face-to-face, social media, print, and website. Storytelling is a great way to convey your brand values because consumers are more likely to remember stories. By describing specific practices and why they are important, you set yourself apart from the competition and create an emotional connection with your consumers. Kathy’s research on sharing cover cropping practices found that customers were willing to pay one to four dollars more per bottle after learning about the specific sustainable practices. Listen in for more tips on how to determine your customer demographic and refine your marketing.

References: * Cover crops make vineyards more sustainable; strategy can be a marketing tool * Kathy Kelley * Identifying wine consumers interested in environmentally sustainable production practices * Penn State Extension Wine Business Management and Marketing * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team – Become a Member * What Sustainability Means to Consumers by Morning Consult * Wine consumers’ willingness to adopt environmentally friendly packaging practices at tasting rooms: An ECHAID analysis

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

I'm your host, Craig Macmillan and with us today is Kathy Kelly. She is professor of horticultural marketing and retail business management at Penn State University. Kathy, thanks for being here.

Kathy Kelley 0:08

Thank you very much. I appreciate the invitation.

Craig Macmillan 0:11

Tell us a little bit about the work that you do and where your kind of research interests lie.

Kathy Kelley 0:15

So I've been a faculty member at Penn State since 2001. And I have a teaching extension research appointment, all three of my aspects deal with some sort of marketing component. And my research, I really became very interested in learning about why people drink wine, how to kind of use those attitudes and behaviors to help smaller producers, medium sizeed wineries, focusing on the consumer and use that to their their benefit. So I've really kind of done a bit of research in the mid Atlantic area to understand why we buy and then what type of product characteristics and tasting room components really make that an experience for consumers that the want to come back again and again to the facility.

Craig Macmillan 0:58

That is super interesting. So based on consumer research, how much do consumers care about the origins of the products they consume in terms of sustainability.

Kathy Kelley 1:06

So sustainability is very important to consumers and more so with the younger generation, then maybe generations that are a little bit more mature. But sustainability can mean quite a few things to many different people. Sustainability not only refers to the environment, but to the social, and the economic sustainability pieces of that three piece stool, but within one economic sustainability. One person may consider sustainability and include organic or certified organic foods, and another may not. So there is an interest in say sustainability. But there's some confusion as to what it really means. Talking with the students in my class, who are Gen Z's young millennials, you know, they really are interested in sustainability. But like the consumers at large, they might not be able to articulate it. We also have this component where consumers are not really that knowledgeable or a portion of consumers not really that knowledgeable about how their food is grown. So when you put the two together, you can see that the confusion grows even more. In Pennsylvania, for example, because of our excessive rain and humidity, it may not be possible for us to grow grapes organically. But we can use other certain types of sustainable measures, like cover crops to control weeds, and use other production methods to control diseases. Or we could use lighter weight glass bottles or be a recycling center for consumers to bring their wine bottles back to and then we use those pieces to inform consumers that we do partake, and we do incorporate certain sustainable activities in the wine production for the industry. And then we need to craft the message that it makes sense to the audience. But I do have to point out that there's been quite a few reports published recently about how sustainability is becoming more important to consumers, and one if I could point it out as morning consult, and they published a report in September called what sustainability means to consumers. And they divided the report up into different types of chapters, if you will, based on the topic and for food and beverages. They found that 7 in 10 us adults would consider purchasing food and beverages as a priority if it has a sustainability component to it. However, when they asked survey participants to describe what it means to be sustainable, one in four said that they didn't know they couldn't articulate it. Others referred to the packaging with such as reducing the amount of filler or the the types of components used to package the product to ship it to the store to the consumer. And others talked about how it was recycling that the facility recycled materials that they didn't use, or any scrap or call material was recycled rather than thrown in the trash. And then some talked about how it was less waste when growing food. So there's quite a bit of difference as far as what consumers say sustainability is. But we know that there's interest, it's just that we need to do a better job of communicating to consumers what sustainability means in the food and beverage space.

Craig Macmillan 3:59

And that sounds like a larger scale, picture communicating just kind of in general, what about a specific company or brand? Obviously, differentiation in the marketplace is crucial to the success of any brand. And this is often done by a compelling story to the consumer about the brand. We also might be telling a story from an industry standpoint, why is it important for a winery or vineyard to include the sustainability related aspects of their business in their story?

Kathy Kelley 4:24

So I'm a real proponent of of storytelling. Storytelling is a great way to convey to consumers the business's purpose or its why, who they serve and the solutions they provide. And we are more likely to remember stories than facts. So if a wine brand has a compelling story to tell about what they're doing to minimize their impact on the environment, they should certainly use it and they should share that information. But the store needs to be authentic. If a brand's story is not genuine, and it is clear that the sustainable efforts are implemented merely to boost their profitability, consumers can tell and could likely decide not To pursue that brand. But brands who make sustainability a central part of their business need to identify consumers with the same interest and learn more about these consumers, these likely buyers, so they need to learn about their needs, their wants and behaviors that can help them develop the narrative, it would then be ideal to ask likely buyers with an interest in sustainability to react to the story, so that it does make sense to them so that the words that are used are appropriate. And then this information can help wine businesses determine whether the message resonates with consumers. And when it does, it becomes more powerful than just providing facts.

Craig Macmillan 5:38

Now, is that a face to face human to human kind of communication? You mentioned that you have to have some response from the consumer or are there other communication at a distance ways that you can engage to other consumers interested or how to get through them?

Kathy Kelley 5:52

Absolutely. So in the tasting room it makes sense that it would be somebody behind the tasting bar sharing the information, kind of striking up a conversation, seeing what's important to the consumer talking about certain sustainability efforts that the wine brand is doing. But also social media is really key with the ability to have you know, images and video, and even you know, one and two way conversations with you know, different platforms, it should be incorporated into the brand's DNA from point A to point B, which would be the consumer, it really has to flow through, it has to be authentic, there's just so many ways to kind of focus in on what that component is that that is so meaningful to the brand. And it's an emotional thing to you know, consumers are so emotional, emotional beings, that when a wine brand is able to convey the emotion as to why sustainability is so important to them, then that builds a stronger connection between the wine brand and the consumer. And the consumer is more likely to respond in a positive way. And you know, frequent that brand tasting room or purchase that brands product.

Craig Macmillan 6:58

That's a question I hadn't thought of until you just mentioned it. And that is emotion, do we know very much about what kinds of emotion are a tap to sustainability products or how emotions are attached to a company, and it's talking about sustainability.

Kathy Kelley 7:12

So I don't have that particular data set in front of me. But emotion is very important to any type of purchase that we make. 94% of our decision making processes based on our emotion that we use emotion in some capacity to make a decision whether we're going to particular pharmacy to just get medication, because it's an absolute need, or something like wine, where it's more of a pleasure seeking type of product, or we're seeking pleasure by purchasing it or as the after effect of of making that purchase. Emotion is very important. There is research that shows that about 64, 65% of both men and women have stated that at one time, they've either developed an emotional bond with a brand, or an emotional bond with a brand's product. So emotion is very important in our decision making process.

Craig Macmillan 8:02

Is it a feeling of satisfaction, a feeling of happy, positive feelings is it a feeling of obligation? Like, how do I know what I'm feeling? I just feeling? What is it that I'm feeling kind of specifically, I guess, do we know do we have any idea?

Kathy Kelley 8:20

So I don't have access to the literature. And I haven't really looked at the exact emotions that sustainability. What particulars of an emotional branch of state sustainability resonate with consumers, I can take a guess. But that's about it.

Craig Macmillan 8:34

That's exactly I can take a guess I feel the same way. I've had a lot of experience working in tasting rooms, including recently. And when you communicate with the customer, sometimes you get a really clear picture of kind of what they're about. And other times you really can they're very opaque. And yet you know, that those processes are going on? It's just hard to tell. And it's hard to tell which what processes can interfere with other processes and which ones are gonna be most effective. So you mentioned a little bit about social media, website, stuff in the tasting room. Does describing specific sustainable farming practices make a difference in consumer attitudes towards a product do you think? And are consumers interested in specifics?

Kathy Kelley 9:12

So I believe that describing the specific sustainability practices used in the vineyard to grow grapes is important for a few reasons, it's likely that you'll be able to educate consumers about a topic that they may not be familiar with, or it kind of sparked some interest in them where they you've used some key words, and they understand that because that's in their vocabulary, and also provides a level of transparency. You're not just saying that you're sustainable, but you're talking about the different steps you're taking to be sustainable, and it's part of the storytelling process. So for example, we conducted a survey and we published the results in the International Journal Wine Business Research and 2021. And we had identified wine consumers who were likely to sample wine from vineyards using cover crops as a way to suppress weeds and reduce herbicide applications. And we felt it was important that our survey participants responded to questions based on a specific scenario. We just didn't want to say that the wines were sustainable. We wanted to talk about what we were doing in the vineyard to make them sustainable, so that we will get more accurate data. So we did not want them to just make assumptions about why we use cover crops, but we told them specifically that they were to suppress weeds. So before they responded to questions about their likelihood to sample such wines, they read a short passage about herbicides being used in the vineyard, and that they were used to maintain a weed free zone under the grape vines, but that herbicides could potentially leak in the groundwater and cause soil erosion that by planting cover crops under the grape vines, we may be able to control weeds and reduce chemical input or eliminate herbicide use overall, this is something that's being used by Makayla Centinari. She's an Associate Professor of viticulture at Penn State University. And this is what a good portion of her research is on how do you suppress weeds in a vineyard using cover crops. We were also interested in investigating what consumers are who as a consumer group, we're willing to sample wines made from these grapes, but also pay $1 to cover the costs of implementing the cover crops. Because we know that based on some cost of production materials that we had, and some statistics, that it was more expensive to plant cover crops and to maintain them as opposed to applying herbicides to control the weeds. So we did have to provide that information to consumers. Because it's very much part of the purchasing process. Not only is it what the label on the bottle, the wine looks like but it's also the price that the wine sells for. So we did find consumers who were not only just willing to pay $1, more for that bottle of wine, because we had told them about the benefits of using cover crops in the vineyard. But we actually found segments of consumers who are willing to pay up to $4 more for the bottle of wine. So for us, we think it's very much that we have to provide the situation for the consumer, not just for the study. But for other studies as well, I don't think that we would get as rich have a dataset, if we just did sustainable or grown using x, we have to explain why that is. And again, it's a little bit of understanding what the consumer want. But it's also a little bit of explaining to consumers what what the product is. So it works for research. And that's something that I would strongly suggest wineries do as well, being very transparent. Talk about the specifics. Again, there's many different benefits to the business as to why you would want to do so.

Craig Macmillan 12:33

you know, probably don't have that on this. But just just to kind of talk about it for a minute. How much energy do you think a consumer is willing to put in to understand or conceive or think about these kinds of things? And the reason that I ask is, I think most of us at least being for myself have a relatively short attention span. And so I might seek out a product or try to find a product with a particular set of qualities like oh, this is, you know, less impact on the planet, or there's a social justice component to it. Personally, I'm only willing to go so far to put in so much energy. What is your take on that? How, how much energy do you think people were willing to put in? And so I guess what I'm asking is, how much of a window do we have? Either in terms of text or time or imagery, or ease of access to information? What's the what's the window like? Do you think?

Kathy Kelley 13:20

Yeah, so I think that's a pretty important question to consider. Because when I'm thinking about the students in my class, and there's data on this, that somebody has suggested that the millennials have an attention span of 12 seconds, Gen Z, the young, who are younger than Millennials have about eight seconds, as far as an attention span. And then when it comes to the internet, both groups having shorter attention span, so it kind of goes along with the what do you do as far as promoting your product to your core group, your target market, first of all, you have to identify them. So if I was going to craft this sustainable message for a winery, I would first of all understand what wine consumers like dislike, and then find that segment within those consumers that are interested in sustainability. I'm never going to get everybody to want to buy sustainable wine. So I have to focus on those where it makes the most sense the likely buyers, and then I have to talk to them about how do you learn about particular types of issues? How do you learn about sustainable? How interested are you? What are your habits. Do you recycle? Do you not do X, Y or Z because of some sort of limitation or barrier and me as a winery, if it deals with wine? Can I make that offer you a solution for that. The students in my class again, those millennials, those Gen z's, they they really can flip the switch really quickly on whether the information is going to grab them or not. So with social media, luckily, photos do such a great service to us to convey a message so it's very much about crafting a visual that that is going to capture their attention and then hopefully be the hook for them to read more either in the description the caption or another website, the frequency of how how many times you send that message out, you've got to kind of think about what the social media suggestions are for number of Instagram posts, when to post them. It is a mix of knowing who your audience is knowing what words or emotions to use in the message, and then knowing how to craft that message so that it hits the right target audience at the right time, and is compelling enough to convert them to a buyer or to seek you out for more information.

Craig Macmillan 15:25

How do I find out who my consumer is?

Kathy Kelley 15:29

So there are acouple of resources online that are free. Some have particular types of data that's behind a paywall. But there are certainly ways to find information about consumers without mentioning a particular type of association or organization that provides information for free. Certainly, if you search the web for in quotes, wind marketing, wind consumer, or you set up Google Alerts to find that information for you, you'll find that there's information that is even published in our mainstream wine business, wine marketing journals. A good deal of information is published by the restaurant industry, or you know, you may not be just looking at wine data, you may want to seek out data about consumers of all alcoholic beverages or spirit drinkers or beer drinkers different information is out there, just take a little hunting then to find the specifics. But then once you find those resources, I think that you, you just continue to return to them. Certainly other options include paying a consultant to do research. But also winery should invest their time into, you know, looking at their list of subscribers, if they have a news, e newsletter, or if they have some sort of membership club and really using that those names and surveying them, asking them to learn more about specific topics. And not just sustainability. But other types of topics that will if they had that information, and they gathered it from likely buyers, would help them in being more economically sustainable.

Craig Macmillan 17:02

That's encouraging, because I was afraid I was gonna have to spend a year and a half with focus groups. Other people take care of that for us. Thank goodness, that's great.

Kathy Kelley 17:13

And so the data might be skewed to perhaps California just because of the size of the population. But you can then use the information kind of think about it, see what could potentially work for your business and then query your own consumers to learn about their their attitudes and behaviors.

Craig Macmillan 17:31

Well, I guess today has been Kathy Kelly. She's professor of horticultural marketing and retail business management at Penn State University. This has been great thank you for for sharing all of this work and knowledge that you have. Where can people find out more about you or related topics?

Kathy Kelley 17:45

Well, thank you again for inviting me. My information is published as far as the types of articles that are right based on research that we've done, and then just general articles about wine marketing can be found on the Penn State Extension website. Our grape and wine team has a number of articles from viticulture technology to the ones that I write on marketing and business management, and then others that kind of fall in between those three main topics, feel free to reach out to me anytime.

Craig Macmillan 18:13

Fantastic. And we will have those links in the episode page on our website. So please check it out. Again, Kathy has been great.

Kathy Kelley 18:21

Thank you very much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Understanding why people drink wine allows you to use their attitudes and behaviors to improve your marketing to keep your customers coming back.

Today we bring you a sneak peek into next week’s full-length episode to share the marketing strategy you’re not using.

Defining consumer purchasing behavior is exactly what Kathy Kelley, Professor of Horticultural Marketing and Retail Business Management at Penn State University loves to do. In her studies, she has found that sustainability is very important to customers however it can mean different things to different people. While 7 out of 10 adults in the United States consider purchasing food and beverage with a sustainability component a priority, one-fourth of these respondents could not articulate sustainability. This gives the industry a great opportunity to better communicate what sustainability means.

Communicating sustainability should be incorporated into a brand’s DNA from point A to point B through all marketing channels including face-to -face, social media, print, and website. Storytelling is a great way to convey your brand values because consumers are more likely to remember stories. By describing specific practices and why they are important, you set yourself apart from the competition and create an emotional connection with your consumers. Kathy’s research on sharing cover cropping practices found that customers were willing to pay one to four dollars more per bottle after learning about the specific sustainable practices.

The Seasons of Sustainability: Winter Here are some great practices you can share with your consumers to tell that block-to-bottle story. Use these activities to create blog posts, social content, and tasting room talking points. It’s this type of content that captivates and educates.

Here are some sustainable practices SIP Certified brands do during the winter:

Plant cover crops to prevent erosion, help rain penetrate, and provide natural fertilizer.
Spread compost to release fertilizer and inoculate the soil with beneficial microorganisms.
Prevent erosion with straw or hay bales.
Compare water bills and look for increases or anomalies.
Taste and top tanks and barrels, update post-fermentation analysis, and regularly monitor Free SO2 and Volatile Acidity levels.
Schedule bottling and begin blending trials.

Tune in on December 15 to hear the whole interview and get more tips on how to determine your customer demographic and refine your marketing.

Check out the show notes for links to this article, research on consumer purchasing preferences, to download the seasons of sustainability PDF, and sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Cover crops make vineyards more sustainable; strategy can be marketing tool * Kathy Kelley * Identifying wine consumers interested in environmentally sustainable production practices * Penn State Extension Wine Business Management and Marketing * Seasons of Sustainability * SIP Certified * What Sustainability Means to Consumers by Morning Consult * Wine consumers’ willingness to adopt environmentally friendly packaging practices at tasting rooms: An ECHAID analysis

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Now in its eighth year, the California Green Medal Sustainable Winegrowing Leadership Awards provide recognition to vineyards and wineries that are leaders in implementing the Three E’s of sustainability (environment, economic and social equity).

Welcome to Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I’m Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director at Vineyard Team, steering committee member and judge for the California Green Medal Awards. Applications are open now through January 30, 2023. As a listener to this podcast, you could be a perfect candidate to receive recognition for your good work.

The Green Medal Awards inspire others in the industry and highlight the benefits of participating in a sustainability program. It’s a great opportunity to showcase the amazing commitment many California growers and vintners have made to protecting the environment and enhancing the communities in which they live and work. We’re proud to count a number of SIP Certified members among the winners including Jackson Family Wines, Monterey Pacific, Inc., Pisoni Family Vineyards, Sheid Family Wines, and Trinchero Family Estates.

We wanted to highlight last year’s winner of the Leader Award, Wente Vineyards in Livermore. So, our host, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with a long-time SIP Certified vineyard and the first ever SIP Certified winery, took a few minutes to talk with Nikki Wente. If you attended our Sustainable Ag Expo in November, you had a chance to hear from Nikki about their use of autonomous and electric vehicles. In this interview, she talks about their no-till system, use of sheep in the vineyards, oak forest land, electric tractors, and balancing capital investments. Listen in to hear her number one piece of advice for sustainable winegrowers.

You can apply for the Environment, Community, or Business awards and also the Leader award by going to greenmedal.org. Check out the show notes for a link, to read about previous winners and to learn more about Nikki. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * California Green Medal Award | Apply * California Green Medal Award | Winners * SIP Certified California Greene Medal Award Winners * Wente Vineyards

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Under vine cover crops can both improve soil health and control vine vigor. Justine Vanden Heuvel, Professor and Chair of the Horticulture Section School of Integrative Plant Science at Cornell University and Michela Centinari Associate Professor of Viticulture at the Department of Plant Science at Penn State University have trialed different cover crops to find the best plants for vineyards. By adding a cover crop under the vine, growers can impact the size of the vine by stopping vegetative growth at version. Ground cover has additional benefits on the soil including decreasing the impact of water drops, improved water infiltration, increased carbon, soil aggregate stability, and microbial activity. Listen in to learn which cover crops are best to improve the overall sustainability of a vineyard.

References: * 25: Under-Vine Cover Crops (podcast) * Floor Management for Soil Health | Dr. Craig Macmillan * Hans Walter-Peterson Webpage * Justine Vanden Heuvel Website * Justine Vanden Houvel’s Twitter * Justine Vanden Heuvel’s YouTube playlist * Michela Centinari’s Penn State Extension webpage * Michela Centinari’s Twitter * SIP Certified * The Centinari Lab at Penn State * Under-Vine Vegetation Mitigates the Impacts of Excessive Precipitation in Vineyards * Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Today our guests are Justine Vanden Houvel from Cornell University and Michela Centinari from Penn State University. And we're going to talk about some really exciting work they've been doing around the topic of under vine vegetation. Thank you both for being here.

Justine Vanden Houvel 0:14

Thanks, Craig.

Craig Macmillan 0:16

Tell us a little bit first of all about what under vine vegetation kind of is, to me that sounds like weeds coming from California. To me, that means weeds and it's gotta go. Your work is looking at some maybe some benefits of it and things that might help in the eastern United States at least, can you tell me kind of what the basic definitions of these things are?

Michela Centinari 0:33

I understand why you think you know, that the under vine vegetation should go because I'm from Italy. And also we don't like to see weeds. Cover crops grown under the vines, because it's a dry, you know, hot warm climate. Is a little different for us here in the eastern United States and the Northeast US, because we have a very different weather conditions, you know, it's more or less humid, wet, and we have fertile soil. So cover crops are weeds, even weeds growing under the under the vine can actually be beneficial for the vine and for the soil. And this is because our vines can be overly vigorous, because it's, you know, it's humid is wet, and the soil is fertile. And this competition provided by the cover crops to the vine for water and nutrients can actually decrease the amount of vigor of the vines. So that is seen as a positive traits in our region, at least some of the sites in our region.

Justine Vanden Houvel 1:31

I agree with what Michela said, and sometimes they are weeds. Sometimes they're specific species that we're we're cultivating. From a management perspective, it really doesn't make any sense in some of these eastern vineyards, not all of them, but in some of them to have this bare strip under the vines because we have to go through and hedge the top of the canopy two, three times in a growing season, we have to go through and do leaf removal once or twice in a growing season. You know, we're spending a lot of money in the industry, here on the East trying to manage the vigor of the vines. And those are Band Aid solutions, right, they don't really help fix the situation. Whereas providing that competition that Michela was referring to, can make a big difference in terms of reducing the available water and nutrients that the vine can take up.

Craig Macmillan 2:19

What kind of species of plants are we talking about here? You know, a weed is a plant at a place. Mint is often a weed but also if I have it in a container, and it's next to my front door, and I like to have my food and it's not a weed. What kind of plants are you talking about?

Justine Vanden Houvel 2:32

Yeah, we've been working with quite a few different plants. So some different grasses, buckwheat, chicory rosette forming turnip. We are having a problem with a lot of the brassicas though and that the groundhogs like to eat them, so we're kind of steering away from those ones a little bit. But we've worked with a wide variety of species and looked at you know, do we see a big impact on Vine size, small impact on Vine size, or no impact on Vine size, because we need to make sure we dial it in so that the grower has the amount of control of vigor that they want. We don't want to deviate the vines too greatly.

Craig Macmillan 3:10

In terms of monitoring vigor, are you doing this from pruning weights? Are you doing this from trying to weigh green mass during the summer, this is gonna be kind of tough, because if you're hedging something two, three times, you know, how do you get a number on that? So what's your metric? How are you getting the baseline metric here?

Justine Vanden Houvel 3:28

We mostly in my program, and Michela can comment on hers we use two methods. One is pruning weight dormant pruning weights, but the second is what we call enhance point quadrate analysis. So some of your listeners may know about point quadrate analysis which was you know, made famous by Richard Smart and sunlight into wine, my group added to sort of a calibration with a light bar in the middle of the canopy so that we can then look at actual numbers for how much light clusters are getting and how much light different leaves are are getting. And so we use those two metrics to really enhance point quadrant analysis. It's a proxy for vigor right, it doesn't measure actual growth rate, but we use that in pruning weight as our measures for this.

Michela Centinari 4:12

Yes, yes, I mean, definitely we measure printing weight because it's something you know growers are familiar with, and it's easier to quantify. We also have been looking at changing the fruiting zone, right light exposure and canopy density. We even, and that is very labor intensive, we looked if the cover crop can reduce the length of the growing season. Basically, in our region, we see the length of vegetative growth because in our region we see the shoots keep growing after verasion on and we want them to stop earlier. So we basically assess if the cover crops can you know stop this vegetative growth around veraison that you know helps in terms of fruit ripening.

Craig Macmillan 4:59

That's interesting. But one of the things I wanted to ask you about as part of all of this, and I think vigor may have something to do with it. The paper you're published recently had a kind of a focus on the effects of heavy precipitation. And the benefits of UVV, undermine vegetation, pardon me, jumped into lingo a little soon, and the effects of heavy rain events. That's interesting to me, because we don't have heavy rain events in California, where I'm from, and I can only imagine what it must be like. And so what are what are some of the benefits there? Oh, and actually, before we get to that, I got a question. In the east in Pennsylvania in New York, that those areas, how common is the use of under vine vegetation as opposed to a clean berm since we have an idea for how much adoption there is out there?

Justine Vanden Houvel 5:42

That's an interesting question. And it basically depends on on how busy the growers are, how many of them have wholeheartedly adopted under vine vegetation? That's a handful in New York, it's not a lot. At this point, I'd love to see more, how many of them will absolutely let the weeds grow and then not worry about it until they get too tall? Because they know it's helping to deviate their vine? That is a fair number.

Michela Centinari 6:06

Yeah, it's very similar here in Pennsylvania, you know, I have to say, growers are definitely interested, you know, we did lots surveys, and we see, you know, most growers want to try but then you know, they get busy. And it's hard, you know, for them to change, a management practice that is working right, you know, spray herbicide. So they need, you know, it's not always easy, right. But definitely, there is an interest, it's just not, a widely adopted practice.

Justine Vanden Houvel 6:34

We are starting to see growers in New York purchasing the undermine mowers so that they're able to maintain and under rvine vegetation and mow it reasonably easily. And so it's been great to see people making that investment.

Craig Macmillan 6:48

The reason I wanted to get to that was because this issue of precipitation, one of the things that I had never thought about that came up in your writing was erosion, and also so crusting and negative impacts on soil structure and aggregate formation and all that kind of stuff. Which is something yeah, very much an issue on bare ground. I had never really thought about it as an issue in let's say, July in a vineyard. Can you tell me what overall like when I've got a rainstorm like that, and I don't have under vine vegetation around what are the all the impacts that I'm looking at that I'm being affected by?

Michela Centinari 7:17

Yeah, I mean, definitely, we see that and we, you know, I even took pictures to show growers because we do see multiple negative impacts on the on the soil under the vine. We see increase on erosion, I mean, definitely most of our vineyards you know, sloppy, you know, on a hill, so we see erosion, even if they use cover crops in the middle row still under the vine, you see this erosion, water and nutrients, you know, in soil washing out from the from the vineyard, we also, you know, showed through an experiment mostly just sean studies that there is an increase in the leaching of nutrients, whether to agrochemicals into the underground water. So definitely leaving bare soil under the vine, create, the negative impact has negative consequences on several parameters of soil health. And since you know, we want the vineyard to last 20 plus years, hopefully, you know, it's important to maintain soil health and to reduce soil degradation and definitely under ine cover crops or weeds can really help in that.

Justine Vanden Houvel 8:20

And I'd also add that our comparison here is bare soil versus soil that's covered with vegetation, whether it's weeds or a species. Is some people will say, well, I cultivate so that's all right, but really the problem in agriculture is bare soil versus not bare soil, right? So cultivation isn't a practice that is able to help reduce a lot of these problems, like the leaching and the runoff in particular.

Michela Centinari 8:51

And even you know, as an as important sort of, for us to increase soil carbon, and definitely soil cultivation doesn't help with that, while you know, let some type of vegetation grow under the vine can be also use as a way to accumulate carbon in the soil in addition to the other benefits that we mentioned.

Craig Macmillan 9:12

There's also some things that you talked about that I'm super curious about, and that is other positive effects in terms of things like soil structure and soil health. What can you tell me about that? That's the cover cropping idea?

Michela Centinari 9:24

Yes, yes.

Craig Macmillan 9:25

So we're not simply covering the ground at this point, we're looking for other benefits.

Michela Centinari 9:29

So definitely, overall cover crops, no, just under the vines can improve many parameters of soil health, not just you know, decrease erosion. But for example, the biomass of the covered crop can reduce the impact of the raindrops that you know can really break the soil aggregates when you live you leave a bare soil under the vine on the middle row can also improve water infiltration. So you have less you know, water runoff can also as we mentioned, improve the soil carbon or the over nutrients in the soil, which you know are all good for the long term sustainability of our vineyards.

Justine Vanden Houvel 10:06

I'd add a couple of other soil health aspects to that is aggregate stability. So aggregate stability for soil is the ability of the basically the soil to withstand physical pressure from the outside. So usually rain in some of the studies that we've done in my program here, we saw a huge increase in aggregate stability of soil up to 80, something percent after three years, when we compared cultivation to weeds growing under the soil for those three years. We see an increase in soil respiration, which we assume means a healthier soil with more microbes. And we see an increase in microbe diversity as well. So we also did a study where we were comparing some different under vine treatments. And we saw that with each passing year, there was more diversity in the microbes when we had weeds growing under the vines than if we had bare soil under the vines. And we assume that helps in terms of nutrient turnover and, and other processes like those.

Craig Macmillan 11:10

I'm know you'd mentioned some species at the beginning, in your work, I'm assuming this work is experimental so that you're choosing what is going on going under the vine for these different trials. Or actually, I'm assuming it's actually experimental, you must have a randomized design or some kind of replicated design of some kind. So what are the plants that you're picking to plant as that undermine vegetation?

Justine Vanden Houvel 11:30

So my group is done lots of different iterations of these types of studies at this point, because we've done it in young vineyards and old vineyards and with hybrids or with vinifera. So they're always in replicated studies. What we basically come down to is we use usually sometimes cultivation but usually herbicide is our control for comparison, because that's what most growers here in New York are doing. And we use buckwheat as our cover crop that will usually have a very slight impact on vine vigor. So buckwheat establishes beautifully, right because it's only allopathic. So we don't tend to have a big problem with weeds, the height of it seems to be appropriate, we don't normally have to mow it, it doesn't get up into the fruiting zone kind of flowers falls over and there's not a lot of management there. And the most we've ever seen at reduced pruning weight might be by 10% or so. On the much more significant side we have chicory root. So chicory is pretty low growing, you can get a dwarf version of it. And I should mention, we normally work with annual cover crops because we hold up over the graft union to protect scion buds in the winter. Chicory is technically a biennial, but what we find is it just keeps coming back, coming back coming back. It can deviate a vine significantly. So we've used it in some of the bigger vineyards when we've wanted to really pull back on the pruning weight. Sometimes that's been up to about 30% compared to our control of herbicide, and then we found that different grasses are somewhere in the middle in terms of their impacts on vine vigor.

Michela Centinari 13:06

Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, it's the same for us, right, we try different type of cover crops, depending on the growers, you know, what they need, what they want to achieve. In addition to what Justine mentioned, we also have been doing some work with perennial grasses, because for some growers, you know, they like, they like to plant something perennial, right. So that reduced the amount of work that they have to do, you just planted once and if you plant a species that doesn't grow too tall, you don't even have to mow sometimes the grass, so it's kind of a lower maintenance. So again, depending on what the grower needs, and what is feasible for that site, you know, we try to match the cover crop with with the site.

Craig Macmillan 13:45

And I'm sorry, I might have missed it, what type species of perennial grasses are we talking about?

Michela Centinari 13:49

So we try and for example, the creeping red fescue, we also try other fescue mixes mix of different fescues including like tall fescue and and we try, you know, to look for species that grow well in a kind of shaded area, because it's not in the middle row. Like it's different. You have more sunlight there. So you want something that establish quickly so the weeds don't grow overgrowth in the grass, and also something that doesn't require too much management in terms of you know, more in like Justine was talking about, you know, buckwheet, chickory, because that is not something that the grower can easily do, like in the middle row, or not every grower can easily do.

Craig Macmillan 14:28

My next question is so how do you plant these grass seeds in the row? Grasses are tiny, they need to have a little bit of cover. It's not a planting grass is not a simple thing. Usually you have to prepare a seed bed. How do you how do you do it? I just am really curious about this.

Justine Vanden Houvel 14:46

So that's a good question. So Michela , and I both have grad students so for years it was our grad students.

Craig Macmillan 14:54

I was a graduate student once I see how this works. Okay,

Justine Vanden Houvel 14:58

Bbut no knowing that the growers were never going to want to do that, I worked with Hans Walter Peterson, who is the viticulture extension specialist for the Finger Lakes here for Cornell Cooperative Extension. And he designed basically a fertilizer spreader, he did a welding design that has two shoots that go off the back to put the seed under the rows. And we can just dump the seed in that drive down the row and set the spinning rate. Sorry, I'm not a good equipment person. So I'm probably not using the right names here. We set the spinning rate for how quickly we want the seeds to come out.

Craig Macmillan 15:31

The application rate.

Justine Vanden Houvel 15:32

And we have that you can look it up online he has a video on YouTube, if anybody's interested in who happily shares those plans so that growers can build their own.

Craig Macmillan 15:40

That's fantastic. That's fantastic. You said extensionist in the Finger Lakes region. And his name again was?

Justine Vanden Houvel 15:46

Hans Walter Peterson.

Craig Macmillan 15:47

Walter Peterson . And God bless you. Dr. Peterson.

Justine Vanden Houvel 15:50

Yeah. And he and Alice Wise, who's our extension specialist on on Long Island for Cornell, they've done a lot of work on how do we get growers to adopt some of these practices. So Michela and I have done basically the research that informs it, but they've looked at what are some of the obstacles? And how can we overcome those so that we can get rid of bare soil in the spots where we really don't need to maintain it here?

Craig Macmillan 16:12

Oh, that reminds me of something else. So in Finger Lakes, Pennsylvania, I don't know very well, I don't know either region really? Well, I gotta admit, is all of the water coming from summer precipitation, or is there supplemental irrigation?

Justine Vanden Houvel 16:24

There's a handful of people with supplemental irrigation here, but it is not very common in the Finger Lakes of New York.

Michela Centinari 16:31

Yeah, neither neither for us. Mostly, like in young vineyards.

Justine Vanden Houvel 16:35

Yeah. I mean, we can give you an example. We got an inch and a half of rain here just yesterday. Alone. Right. We get a lot of precipitation. And in some years this year, started out dry. But then it's been raining pretty consistently for a couple of weeks. Now.

Craig Macmillan 16:52

Pardon my presumption is, but it sounds like the team should be working on fungal diseases. That's what's going on. That's a lot of rain. That's a crop killer.

Justine Vanden Houvel 17:00

Yeah, that's what the pathologists are working on. But we should actually mention. So there has been some good work on under vine cover crops done in Uruguay, where they looked at weather, botrytis, and I think some other fungal diseases, I'd have to refresh my memory on that, was impacted by under vine cover crops. And indeed, because of the reduced vegetation in the canopy, right, smaller leaves and just the canopy not being so thick, they did see a reduction in cluster rots as a function of under vine cover crops as well.

Craig Macmillan 17:31

There you go. That's fantastic.

Michela Centinari 17:33

Yeah. And that's great. Because actually, several growers here are concerned about growing under vine cover crop that will increase disease pressure, because they're afraid about you know, the humidity, increasing humidity in the under vine area. But like Justine said, We never observe or measure any negative effect of under vine cover crop on you know, increase in mold to other fungal disease. Actually, sometimes if there is an effect is a positive effect. What actually we don't know yet is, you know, if we can increase the presence of pests under the vine, right, like a course, some insects or other type of pests. We never had any issues in our vineyards, I mean, in vineyards, where we are conducting research, and that is something definitely that, you know, could potentially be a problem. We don't know yet.

Craig Macmillan 18:22

Okay, I'm gonna ask a tough question here. That's because we've kind of ended up here. I'm a grower, I'm worried about too much impact on vigor, I'm worried about the disease, I also might very likely have a gut wrenching fear of something getting out of control, and me not being able to control it or remove it. If I changed my mind, or I don't like what's happening. How do you put that fear to rest, that I'm not going to lose control of my floor, I'm not going to lose control of my row. It's okay. But this is goes back away. So Paul Annua, for instance, was one that a friend of mine was looking at as an underground vegetation in California. And I said, Hey, why don't we just use Bermuda grass, it's summer dormant. It loves the earth, it's great. And he was like, if you try to get anybody to plant that you're gonna get killed, you're gonna get shot in the head. Like, if you go around, recommending we plat Brumida, you're gonna get killed. When I had experienced with it in a vineyard where he had escaped. I had worked with it, but here was the thing. There was no getting rid of it there that we were that was it. We were committed, there was no getting away from it. And so I can see having the same kinds of fears about a species of plants that I haven't worked with before, for instance, or what happens over years and years and years. What are you going to do to help me sleep at night?

Michela Centinari 19:28

Wow, the tough question. No, I mean, definitely, you know, it's a tough decision and manufacturing needs to be taken into consideration. So I wouldn't just go and plant something right you need to do your research and work maybe with the extension or you know, with specialists even to make the right decision. Also, I recommend trying on in a small area of your vineyards. So no just you know, plant everywhere. If you have you know, 10 acres, or maybe try on a few vines and see how it goes right and see if you can keep it under control. If it's dry and there is too much competition for the vines, you know, maybe to be able to do a soil cultivation or kill your your cover crops, you know, plan or to head on options on what you can do to be able to manage, but definitely on choosing the right species is the first step, right.

Justine Vanden Houvel 20:15

Yeah. And I'd add to that, you know, where I could see it being a problem is what we call resident vegetation. So keep in mind, and in a at least here, we always have a cover crop between rows, right, we usually start with some sort of an orchard mix, and it becomes whatever and we really don't care, we're not going to bother replanting that. So we have that as a little bit of protection. But when we allow weeds to grow under the trellis, and then just mow them down, I know, I've heard that there's some concerns that we might have a weed there get out of control, and then continue to propagate itself. And that is a possibility. But what we actually find is that as each year progresses, we get more and more species in that undermine part of the vineyard. Right? Often we've started in vineyards where they've sprayed a preemergent in previous years. And the first couple of years, we have like two species four species, five species, and then in a few years, we're up to 30 or 40 different species of of weeds in there. And so it does give me at least some hope that it would be very difficult for something to get completely out of control. But what we usually tell the growers here is that if you were going to spray a herbicide anyway. And now you've tried to under vine cover crop, if you don't like it, you can hopefully get rid of it. Right. But the other thing we tell them is that we probably don't need the same cover crop under vine cover crop year after year, right? Because once you, for example, devigorate the vines a little bit and get them back to a more manageable size using chicory, for example, then you want to keep them at that size. You don't want to keep dropping the pruning weight year after year. So every year there needs to be a decision about what did I think of the vine size and the canopy characteristics last year? What's the predicted weather? And what am I going to plan to maintain under the vine for this year?

Craig Macmillan 22:05

We're getting close here to wrap it up. So there's two quick things I want to ask you what each for each of you will start with Justine, what is the one thing you would like growers to take away from your recent work on under vine vegetation?

Justine Vanden Houvel 22:16

Bare soil is not a good idea in vineyards environmentally, really, it's quite a poor choice. And there are options for if you have small vines or or young vines or a lack of vigor, vigor. There are some potential options out there. We haven't done all of the research on this yet, but that there are options to explore.

Craig Macmillan 22:40

Michela.

Michela Centinari 22:40

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I agree with Justine, there are options. Of course, we don't have one cover crop that can solve all the problems that definitely bare soil is no good, especially again, in our region. And our growers are also concerned about the cost of implementing under vine cover crops. And I'd say you know, for us, sometimes planting a perennial for example, grass is no more expensive. I mean, depending on depending on the year, how many times you spray herbicide and the effect of on the on the yield of the vines, but it's not necessarily more expensive than spray herbicide or sub cultivation. So hope they get cover crops a chance.

Justine Vanden Houvel 23:18

So Craig, we've mostly been talking about work here on the East Coast where we tend to have a lot of precipitation, but we have colleagues in in other countries and other climates that are doing work on under vine cover crops as well. And there's been some great work that's been done in the south of France, in Spain and in Australia. And so while Michela and I haven't focused our research, of course on California, there are going to be some opportunities for growers in warmer climates as well.

Craig Macmillan 23:46

And where can people find out more about you and your work Justine, go first?

Justine Vanden Houvel 23:50

Probably the easiest spot is on the Cornell webpage, or I am on Twitter. My one social media is Twitter. And my handle is @thegrapeprof. And I tweet about research and mostly in viticulture, but a little bit of a enology as well.

Craig Macmillan 24:06

Michela?

Michela Centinari 24:07

Yeah, I would say have a Twitter account. I'm not very active like Justine. I should. You know, I have a website if you Google actually Centinari lab, Penn State so we have you know our lab website where we post about research and also we have an extension web page prep and wind through Penn State.

Craig Macmillan 24:26

Fantastic and for audience, that information plus links to some other things will be in the show notes. Want to thank you both for being here. I guests have been Justine Vanden Houvel and Michela Centinari. They're doing fantastic work in an area that most of us in the West Coast certainly don't know about. But I know there's important for other regions of not just the United States but the world. You guys are doing great work.

Justine Vanden Houvel 24:45

Thanks, Craig. This was really enjoyable.

Unknown Speaker 25:07

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Over the past two weeks, we've looked at studies showing that people everywhere have been making more sustainable purchases, and how they are doing this by seeking out products with eco-certifications -- and wine is no exception! The wine market is steadily growing, and the majority of sales come from retail outlets. This is why putting the SIP Certified seal on your bottle is the best way to be sure your wine isn't being overlooked when shoppers are out looking for sustainable wines.

Today we share why our member get certified.

When wine enthusiasts see the SIP Certified seal on your bottle, they know they are looking at a wine that was made with conscious care for the people and the planet.

But don't take it from us -- here's what fellow SIP Certified members have to say about certifying their wines:

Sincerity, Vetting, & Media Coverage! From consumers to employees, and from vineyards to media, Adam LaZarre, Director of Winemaking at Wine Hooligans, tells us that the rigid requirements for attaining SIP Certified wine have been well worth the time and dedication:

“For us, having our wines SIP Certified is easily the best way to let our entire audience know we are sincere about doing the right thing for the health of our vineyards, customers, and employees. The requirements for certification are pretty rigid but are easily obtained provided you maintain some detailed record-keeping. That is an important aspect actually because it ensures that the third-party inspector can vet the entire process completely. I know for a fact that this is a HUGE selling point for our wines and it also gives the media an extra topic of discussion that they and their audience can sink their teeth into. For us, it’s been an extra paragraph or two in the magazines or another five minutes on the radio. It’s clearly one of the biggest bangs for your buck and for many of our clients, just as important as the quality and price of what’s in the bottle.”

Sharing Common Goals "The three pillars of the SIP Certified Model lays the foundation of our winery’s values and drives our commitment to sustainability. By having our wines SIP Certified, our consumers are actively supporting a system of winegrowing that is done with conscious care for the planet. It is extremely beneficial to us to share this common goal with our consumers and continue to make wines with people, the planet, and prosperity in mind."

Fred Delivert, Winemaker, Tolosa Winery

Fred adds that their tracking software, Vintrace, makes the process "very easy." All of the block-to-bottle documentation required for the audit process can be pulled from major tracking systems, meaning that if you are using winemaking tracking software, you likely already have all of the necessary records on file!

The Legitimacy of Well-Respected Third-Party Organizations "We choose to have our wines certified because of the legitimacy of well-respected third-party organizations like SIP Certified. Designating our wines as sustainable brings a cache with it that the consumer finds really valuable."

Tamara Bingham, Brand Manager, Cambria Estate Winery

Tamara notes that their auditor is helpful in guiding her and the winemaking team through the certification process, and that the process is painless and easy!

Get in on these benefits! If you're making your wine with SIP Certified grapes, your brand can experience these benefits, as well!

Any wine made with at least 85% SIP Certified fruit -- estate or purchased -- can bear the SIP Certified seal. All you need to do is complete a Wine Application (page 35 of the Information Package) and send it to a Wine Inspector. The inspection is all done remotely via email exchange of chain of custody documentation.

Inspections range from 1 to 5 hours depending on the number of wines on the application. Fees range from $100-$175 per hour and are paid directly to your inspector. Certification rates are on an annual production basis and can be viewed here.

Visit our Get Certified: Wine page to read more about wine certification, and email mailto:whitney@vineyardteam.org ?subject=SIP Certified Wines if you have any questions.

Check out the show notes for links to this article, research on consumer purchasing preferences, a link to get your wines certified, and sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Is Wine Certification Worth It? * Is your wine being overlooked? * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified * SIP Certify your Wines

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Vineyard Team’s Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship provides multi-year, higher education investments in the children of vineyard and winery workers on California’s Central Coast based on academic excellence, financial need, and community involvement. The majority of awardees are first-generation college students. This funding supports students and their families in achieving their dreams of successful graduation from a trade, or two- or four-year school to pursue a professional career.

Vineyard Team’s Executive Director, Beth Vukmanic, and milti-year scholarship recipient and Assistant Grower Relations Representative at Justin Winery, Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza talk about how the scholarship impacted her education and career trajectory through not only financial aide but industry connections. Evelyn gives her advice on how to succeed in college to new students and Beth shares how to apply for funding.

First-generation students have more barriers when it comes to attaining higher education – they cannot ask their parents how to navigate the system, budgets are often tight, and they can feel guilty for leaving their families. As a community, we can band together to better the future of the next generation. Multi-year recipient Alberto Gonzales says, "I am proud of breaking the cycle and being the change in my family as the first generation to go to college."

You can give the gift of higher education to students like Evelyn and Alberto this GivingTuesday. Our goal is to raise $75,000 by November 29, 2022. You’ll be doing more than just donating — your kindness will make it possible for working families to send their children to two-year colleges, four-year universities, and trade schools.

References: * Donate to the scholarship – help us raise $75,000 by November 29, 2022 * Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza – check-ins throughout her college career * From the Crops to the Classroom – a story about Esteban Garcia * Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship * Meet three recipients of the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship (video) * Newsletter * SIP Certified * “The biggest inheritance that I’m going to leave you…”

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And today our guests are Beth Vukmanic, she's executive director of vineyard team and Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza. She is assistant grower relations representative with Justin Winery. Today we're going to talk about the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship. Beth, would you tell us a little bit about how that came about? What it is what it does, and that kind of thing with the background is?

Beth Vukmanic 0:22

I would love to, but one of ours Memorial Scholarship is to benefit the children of vineyard and winery workers. For anybody who has been a fan of this podcast. You know, we talk about sustainable winegrowing. And a lot of the times that focuses on the planet part of it. So we're talking about soils and pests and irrigation, but people are our most valuable resource. And this scholarship program is a way for us to give back to the people who helped us make a wonderful industry.

Craig Macmillan 0:50

Who was Juan Nevarez?

Beth Vukmanic 0:52

Juan Nevarez was a winegrower, who started out in the Paso Robles area, he moved here to the United States as a teenager, I believe he was just 16 years old. He didn't speak any English. And he just learned everything from the ground up. He was a very, I guess you'd probably call it a gritty soul, he would always put in the time and effort to try to teach himself. So if somebody was putting in irrigation lines, he would go over and ask them questions. Or if somebody was planting vines, he would go in and ask questions about why they made that choice. And he over time really developed a successful management company called Nevarez Farm Labor, he helped establish a lot of notable vineyards, including Justin in the Paso Robles area of California. And then he actually developed his own vineyard property, too. And he unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago. And something that was really special about Juan is that he held that he was a self made man, he dreamed of higher education for his own children, his daughter, Mia said that their dad had just one require from them that they had to go to college. And his thought with that was that he felt like he had to work really hard to prove who he was and what he knew. And that an education would help his children get that foot in the door, so that they could more easily build a better lives for themselves. And so that's why we named the scholarship after him to honor that memory of somebody who really supported higher education and valued it, and wanted it for the next generation.

Craig Macmillan 2:24

I never met him, I never connected with him. But from what I've learned, over the years, talking to people, one of the things that made this such an obvious thing to do for the community to start this scholarship was he was connected to like everybody, like he knew everybody. Everybody knew him. Curious more about that this idea of community, because I've talked to so many individuals who had some kind of connection to him, was that part of how this all came about, as folks wanted to, you know, encourage this idea. But also, they all felt like maybe they had some kind of connection there, they had some kind of responsibility. Scholarship is not a simple thing. Like you have to get kind of a critical mass of people to do it.

Beth Vukmanic 3:00

That's definitely true. Yeah. So when we first started the scholarship program, back in 2015, we were hosting our Earth Day Food and Wine Festival. And that was a way that we would take, you know, some of the proceeds raised by that to give back. And I think those first couple of years, that's the total amount that we were giving was, you know, maybe $5,000, to a few different students. Over time, like you said, because it is a community driven effort, as more people learned about the program, and especially a lot of our vineyard management companies that work with us, they will outreach the scholarship program to their team so that their students can apply for it. So they're really seeing this direct impact of helping their own employees, children attend school and earn that higher education. So I think that's really how the community build started. And it's just grown from there. This year, we gave out $62,000 to 14 different students. And it's just phenomenal. Like how much growth it's seen over the last so many years since 2015.

Craig Macmillan 3:58

That's fantastic. That's really, really wonderful. If I'm gonna apply, do they have to be a high school senior? Do they apply once they get one year of funding? Can they apply multiple times? How does how does the funding work?

Beth Vukmanic 4:10

The way that the funding works is they don't necessarily have to be a high school senior, although a lot of our applicants are that could be somebody who is already attending school, they can still be eligible to apply for the scholarship program as well. So far, the way that the scholarship has worked is that students would apply each year to get a scholarship. However, we just had an incredible investment from Must! Charities that's going to help us expand this program to a whole new level. They've raised $1.3 million dollars...

Craig Macmillan 4:40

What!

Beth Vukmanic 4:42

Which is a huge and so a big change that we're going to make that's going to be incredible is to provide multi year scholarships. Instead of a student needing to come back and apply every single year as they're going to into your school or trade school or possibly a four year school, we would be able to give them funding for that period. bit of time, if they beat the benchmarks of a minimum GPA, and then also checking in with our organization. And that's something that we found was sort of kind of happening already with recipients like Evelyn. But now we have to do that more intentionally.

Craig Macmillan 5:14

And let's ask everyone. So Evelyn, you are a multi year recipient, is that correct?

Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza 5:19

That is correct. Yes.

Craig Macmillan 5:20

How did you find out about it? What was the process like when you first connected with vineyard team in the scholarship program? How did how did this come about for you?

Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza 5:28

So I found out about the scholarship through my dad's job. So my dad is currently employed by messa vineyard management, he works as a tractor driver and Sierra Madre Vineyard, which is located in Santa Maria, I'm not sure who exactly approached him with information about the scholarship, but it was something through his work. And he came home one day, and he gave me the application. He's like, I think this would be great for you to apply to it's a scholarship. I know, you're always seeking scholarship opportunities, you should give this a try. And of course, I was like I, I will do it. You know, like I was always seeking these type of opportunities throughout my college journey. And so I went for it. And the process was very simple. It was great communicating with the Vineyard Team. If I had any questions, it was very straightforward and clear. The application process itself was very simple. And I'm just super grateful for it, I had no idea that it would lead to a multi year scholarship recipient outcome. And I can't express enough in words that I'm so thankful for that in the change that I made throughout my college educational journey was just undescribable. It was very impactful for sure.

Craig Macmillan 6:37

So the first award that got you started. And where did you go to school?

Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza 6:42

So I attend a Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. First award, I believe I received in 2017. So it was during my sophomore year at Cal Poly. And during this time, I was pursuing a degree a Bachelors of Science degree in animal science. So that was my initial career direction. I would definitely say that the scholarship not only represented financial assistance for me to be able to afford my education at the time. But really the way I saw it was an opportunity to open up doors throughout my educational journey, and kind of helped me figure out a little bit more what direction I could take career wise connections through the Vineyard Team really kind of helped me land where I am today. And I can definitely talk more about that if you'd like me too.

Well. Yeah. I'm curious because first of all, Beth, students do not have to be pursuing a degree in an agricultural area. Right? They can they can be pursuing any career paths that correct?

Elizabeth Vukmanic 7:37

That's correct. Yeah. We're happy to support students that are pursuing any kind of career. So it doesn't have to be an ag, although sometimes we find ones that are still working and viniculture too.

Craig Macmillan 7:46

So Evelyn, but you were doing animal science?

Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza 7:49

Yes.

Craig Macmillan 7:50

How did you how did you move then into the viticultural world? How was what was that path link ? How did that happen?

Unknown Speaker 7:56

Yeah, I love sharing the story. Um, it's an interesting one. So animal science, for me started out with my passion for animals, I always kind of assumed, okay, I will have a career that has to do with working with animals and helping them. And it's one of those things that as I navigated Cal Poly with my animal science degree, I just kind of came to a point where I realized I was learning a lot of valuable information but I just didn't feel like my heart was in it. It wasn't speaking to me. And so I realized that this is probably not the field where I want to obtain a career that I would be content with. And so then I started to think about any other fields I could possibly explore that would interest me and I thought about my dad's job. He's always worked in vineyards for as long as I can remember, remember, ever since I was really young, I decided to explore that through a research project that was presented to me at Cal Poly. And that was my first exposure to vineyards, specifically, wine diseases is what I worked with, and I ended up falling in love with it. And I wanted more I wanted to dive in a little bit deeper into the viticulture industry.

Craig Macmillan 9:03

I think there were a lot of us that started doing something else and then got exposed and we got the bug. After that you kind of just can't look back. I know so many people have that story. So you completed your undergrad at Cal Poly? Is that correct?

Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza 9:16

Correct. Yes.

Craig Macmillan 9:17

And was at that point, was the wine and viticulture program happening? Or was this a fruit science degree? Where were you at?

Unknown Speaker 9:23

At that time, I finished off my degree in animal science just because by the time I realized I was really interested in viticulture a little too late to change my major. So I finished my degree animal science and then I decided to do a master's in agriculture with a specialization in crop science. That was the closest I could get to having a research experience related to viticulture, just because of the moment Cal Poly doesn't offer a specific master's program for wine and vit but it was a great opportunity. I decided to take that route just to kind of specialize a little bit more in my field of interest.

Craig Macmillan 9:56

And did you get scholarship money through your masters?

Unknown Speaker 9:59

Yes, I did get scholarship money from other vineyard organizations. The Vineyard Team scholarship specifically was throughout my undergrad journey, my undergraduate degree, which was an animal science. Needless to say, this scholarship did help expose me more to this industry through connections, talking to people who already were embedded in the industry. And it really did help me get my foot in the door in the matter speaking for kind of ended up where I am now. So.

Craig Macmillan 10:31

Were there things that the scholarship allowed you to do that you otherwise would not have been able to do? Because I remember talking to some folks who want it and they some of its tuition, but some of it's also things like rent and food or the ability to travel potentially, or something like that, or the materials that they needed. How did they How did the money help you? What did you What were you able to do that you would otherwise not have been able to do?

Unknown Speaker 10:52

Many things. And what was important for me is my parents at the time had other things to worry about in terms of expenses, and I have two older sisters. So they were also helping them get through their college journeys. And so the biggest thing for me was able to take a weight off of my parents shoulders in terms of having to financially support me. And this scholarship made a huge difference in me being able to take care of rent, take care of book costs, or any type of trips related to my classes, I was taking any extracurricular activities that kind of helped me dive deeper into my interest, career wise. So it definitely made a huge difference in being able to afford these opportunities and being able to become more involved in activities I was very interested in participating in for sure.

Craig Macmillan 11:44

Do you think you would have gotten into the vineyard industry without the scholarship?

Unknown Speaker 11:47

No. I think part of it was the research opportunity that I was presented at Cal Poly, but really this current job that I have now, I don't believe I would have attained it if it wasn't for this scholarship, because it was through this scholarship and having my affiliation with the Vineyard Team and their roots in the wine growing community here that really helped me meet, they introduced me to Molly Scott, Director of Grower Relations here at Justin. And it really just connecting the dots, it played a huge role in landing me where I am now. So I don't believe that I would be in the Viticulture industry as I am today without the scholarship.

Unknown Speaker 12:33

And so that is another part of the scholarship program where we've seen these connections being made, you know, over the years. And it's an area where we can further formalize this to with our new investment. We've had a few different students who've met different vitiulturalists at like, I remember barbecue or different video team events and ended up with jobs or internships out of them. And our membership is very supportive of the scholarship program. And not just in terms of donations. But going beyond that and wanting to offer internship opportunities wanting to offer job opportunities to the students who are recipients of it.

Craig Macmillan 13:06

Again, how many recipients per year does it vary?

Unknown Speaker 13:09

It does vary. Yes. So this last year was 14, we're going to be looking at adding in more because we have the capacity to add in more over the next few years. Another thing that's been interesting about the scholarship program, too, is we're really reaching for the most part first generation college students. So 98% have been first generation so far, by going into this next phase of the program, we're going to bring on an administrator who's going to help us oversee the whole program. And I think a really important component of that is kind of like a coaching element that they're going to provide, you know, not just processing applications, but actually doing active outreach to all of the recipients with tips and ideas like how to file the FAFSA form or, or college, you know, have you looked for these kinds of resources. So go into that next level of providing help support to help the students not just financially, but really get through the whole process of getting to college. A challenge that a lot of first generation college students run into is that no one of their families had this experience before, right. So they can't ask their parents, you know, like, hey, you know, how do I how do I get into school? And like, what do I do when I go to class? You know, a lot of times budgets are tight, or they might have maybe me feel guilty about like, you know, leaving their family, stuff like that. So I think having this scholarship administrator is going to provide a wonderful level of support for everyone who's a part of the program.

Craig Macmillan 14:31

98 percent first generation. It's not a requirement, though, isn't?

Elizabeth Vukmanic 14:33

No, it's not a requirement.

Craig Macmillan 14:35

What are some other examples over the past golly, how ling has it been now seven years of really interesting cases or success stories of folks that have gone out and done other things or would not have made it without somehow?

Unknown Speaker 14:45

I think an incredible story is Esteban Garcia. He was a young teenage dad, his family worked in the fields, his grandparents worked in the fields. He did the same thing too. And at a certain point, he thought, you know, is this what I'm just going to do is just sort of live this day to day, you know life or am I going to do something else. And he saw, you know, being in the United States as an opportunity to get a higher education. Later on in life, he went back to college with two children and a fiancee, works full time. Just a total Rockstar. Right now, he's been a multi year recipient, he went to Allan Hancock College, which is down in Santa Maria and then moved over to Fresno State, he actually is going into viticulture as well, and has a great job at Sea Smoke vineyards too. So that's another one of these kind of parallel stories maybe with Evelyn where he got the scholarship. And then by being involved with the Vineyard Team through us was able to make these other connections and move into a nice career as he graduates school.

Craig Macmillan 15:45

Evelyn, you're relatively early in your career. It sounds like this is a completely personal question. Where do you want to? This isn't like an interview question. Where do you want to be five years from now? Where do you want to be 10 years from now? How do you what do you see your trajectory being?

Unknown Speaker 15:59

Oh, man, yeah. I love to think about that all the time and plan. What I have clear right now is my interest in viticulture, anything related to wine grapes. Honestly, my biggest goal at this moment is to just advance in my career, I like to apply value to what I've learned and not only be able to apply that in a job, but also continue growing professionally. Five years from now 10 years from now I see myself without a doubt still being an agriculture still been in this industry. Who knows I may kind of divert a little bit from viticulture, we try horticulture, you know, even different avenue, but for sure still in the agriculture world. I know agricultural is for me, it's in my family. It's been for years. So this is where I want to stay for sure. Honestly, right now, I guess to put it in a clearer way is I'm open to opportunities that offer learning and growing. And that is really what I am seeking after. So.

Craig Macmillan 17:04

As someone who's come out the other side and have educational piece, what would you say? How would you mentor a young person who's just senior in high school or freshman in college, about how they should navigate all this and how they should look for help.

Unknown Speaker 17:17

My biggest point of advice would be take the time to research take the time to get to know and become familiar with opportunities are out there. For most scholarships that I received, including the Vineyard Team scholarship, I wouldn't have known if I didn't either hear it from someone that I knew or look more into it by doing my own research. So I know sometimes it can be like, oh, man, I don't know if I have time for this, you know, to write an essay or ask for a reference letter or a reference, but it's worth it. It's the few hours or even minutes that you put towards a scholarship application can result in something so big like landing an ideal career, you know, I'm opening the door to a route that really will land you where you want to be career wise. And that's what happened to me, and I can't stress enough. I always talk to my peers, and people that I know are currently navigating college and they say, you should, you know, definitely take the time to apply to scholarships, use your resources, talk to people, you know, and it will never have a negative outcome for sure. And you will always have something rewarding come out of that. So that's my biggest point of advice for people.

Craig Macmillan 18:31

And turning back to Beth, I think the idea of having an administrator who not only manages numbers, but also helps to managing council people is a really, really great thing. I think better, scholarships had that it would be more successful, not just in getting people but also the outcomes. I think that's really wonderful. Beth, how is it techniques and getting the word out to the community about the scholarship?

Unknown Speaker 18:53

A lot of times the scholarship gets sorted out by word of mouth. We also have a newsletter on our website, if anyone wants to sign up for that. And in there, we've been sharing some wonderful stories about students like Evelyn and updates on the scholarship program. And then a lot of it ends up going through like Evelyn said to through the vineyard management companies, because they're telling their staff about it, who's been telling their children about it to help them apply.

Craig Macmillan 19:19

Where do you see this going? You've talked about multi year awards. You've talked about getting to more students, what's your five year tenure plan for this scholarship path? Where do you see this headed?

Unknown Speaker 19:29

I will look forward to the next phase of the scholarship. We're going to be making some of these tweaks, I guess, to our current system so that we can really solidify a lot of these great things that were already naturally happening. I'm really excited about the multi-year scholarships. I think we can come up with a really good communications plan with the administrator for the students and really figure out like what their pain points are like, where are they struggling, where do they need more help? Maybe doing even more conversations with the students themselves with the question that you just asked Evelyn like what is your piece of advice you would give somebody who is in your shoes, you know that you were just issues a few years ago, I think all of those are going to be really, really valuable to everyone participating in the program.

Craig Macmillan 20:12

Which reminds me something. So who's on the selection committee? How are already selected?

Beth Vukmanic 20:17

So we have seven different members on the selection committee. And the way that the process works is once the applications come in, we blind them. So you know, so they don't know whose application they're reading. And all of the applicants, you know, give kind of like basic information about themselves, you know, where they are in school right now, what they plan on doing, but then they always write these wonderful, you'll have more personal essays where we get to learn more about them as an individual. And so this selection committee will spend their time reading through all of these applications, and then sort of discussing based off of need, which students will get a scholarship that year.

Craig Macmillan 20:54

And these are folks in the vineyard and winery industry. They are, what is the cycle? Where do students go to apply? What time of year does it take place? What's the timeframe? Like how does that work?

Unknown Speaker 21:04

Applications are going to be opening up in March for students, so they can be popping on vineyard team.org/scholarship, to see when applications go live.

Craig Macmillan 21:15

That's fantastic. I had been involved as well over the years, I think this is a fantastic thing. I have also followed some individuals through the process. And it's been very rewarding for me as a person. And I know it's rewarding for them, because I could see outcomes that happen that otherwise never would happen. I really am proud of you, Evelyn, I think you've done great. And I'm glad that you participated. And I'm super proud of you, Beth, for making this all happen over the years. This is not a small task, but it started. And then the successes, runaway and really, really exciting. What can people do to support? You mentioned the website? Is there anything else people can do?

Unknown Speaker 21:51

We are fundraising for this. So although must has raised $1.3 million for the program, we actually have to match a chunk of that money in order to be able to apply it to the scholarship program. So matching funds are really, really important to to help us keep this going. People can go ahead and donate at being your team.org/scholarship And right now our goal is to raise $75,000 By giving Tuesday, which is November 29, 2022.

Craig Macmillan 22:18

That's fantastic. Well, that's all the time we have for today. I thank you both so much for being here. Beth Vukmanic, executive director of Vineyard Team and Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza, assistant grower relations representative for Justin Winery. Again, there's gonna be information in the show notes, look online, go to the links, get a checkbook, please support this project. This has done so much good for so many people and all of us very excited to say continue. Thank you both for being here.

Evelyn Alvarez Mendoza 22:46

Thank you so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Most wine shoppers purchase from retail outlets, whether online or in person. This means that the majority of your wine sales probably aren't coming from your tasting room or even your winery's website, where you have a controlled platform from which to deliver the message of your brand's sustainability. With the search for sustainable goods on the rise, you need a way to let wine enthusiasts know about the sustainability of your wine when you can't be there to tell them.

Today we talk about how you can help your customers find your sustainable wine.

Can your wine be identified as sustainable? Wine Intelligence and Full Glass Research conducted consumer and trade research on perceptions of sustainable winegrowing, certification, and practices. Here are five exciting insights from their research:

Consumers seek easy ways to find and identify sustainable wine, like clear and simple visual cues.
"Clear and highly visible labeling" on wine packages, back label information, and tastings or seminars were seen by the trade as the most useful in supporting the purchase of sustainable wines.
While winery websites and tasting events are more effective at communicating wine sustainability, wine labels and peer recommendations are the most frequently used sources for identifying sustainable wines
Sustainably produced wine has the highest future purchase consideration: 71% of U.S. wine drinkers say that they would consider buying sustainably produced wine in the future.
Among US wine consumers, $3 was the average extra value consumers indicated they were "willing to pay" for a sustainably produced wine.

Can consumers and the trade easily identify your wine as sustainable?

Data shows it: people buy sustainable products The market is driven by consumer demand. The 2021 Sustainable Market Share Index found that sustainability-marked products were responsible for a third of the growth in consumer packaged goods from 2015 to 2021, and market share growth continues year over year. Randi Kronthal-Sacco, Senior Scholar at the NYU Stern Center for Sustainable Business states that their research "demonstrates the perceived consumer demand is realized by purchasing data, and growing."

Simon-Kutcher & Partners' 2021 Global Sustainability Study shows that 63% of consumers have made modest to significant shifts toward being more sustainable in the past five years. Purchasing behavior is a major player in these shifts, and 50% of consumers rank sustainability as a top 5 value driver across categories.

It's clear: consumers are looking for and purchasing sustainable products! Are you marketing your sustainable wine as such?

Don't let your wine be overlooked! If you're producing wines made with sustainably grown grapes, putting the SIP Certified seal on your bottle is the best way to let it be known and increase sales with sustainably-minded consumers.

Visit our Get Certified: Wine page to read more about wine certification, and email whitney@vineyardteam.org if you have any questions.

Check out the show notes for links to this article, all the studies referenced, our previous Marketing Tip “Is Wine Certification Worth It?, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Is Wine Certification Worth It? * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified * SIP Certify your Wines

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As a vineyard advisor across the United States, Fritz Westover, Viticulturist at Westover Vineyard Advising and host of the Virtual Viticulture Academy, has the opportunity to see a lot of different vineyards, varieties, diseases and climates. Much of his work in recent years is in Texas. This large state about the size of France has a number of challenges including rain that is not seasonal, Pierces Disease, late spring and fall freezes, hail, and poor water quality. Fritz and Craig, both former staffers with Vineyard Team, discuss a variety of practices that impact the long-term sustainability of a vineyard including leaching salts, why irrigation systems are important in wet climates, and the number one way to manage disease.

References: * 110: How to Develop a New Vineyard Site * 121: Regenerative Agriculture (Rebroadcast) * 137: The Pierce's Disease and Glassy-winged Sharpshooter Board * Instagram @westoverviticulture * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 | Use code PODCAST for $50 off * Twitter @WestoverVit * Vineyard Underground Podcast * Virtual Viticulture Academy * Westover Vineyard Advising

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Fritz Westover viticulturist with Westover Vineyard Advising and the virtual viticulture Academy. Is that right?

Fritz Westover 0:10

That's correct, Craig.

Craig Macmillan 0:11

He's got some other things in the in the works that we'll maybe talk about a little bit later. Fritz and I have known eachother for a long time. And actually, we had the same job

Fritz Westover 0:19

That we did that we did that we did.

Craig Macmillan 0:21

He is based in Texas, lives in Houston. But he works in all parts of the country. You're you're all over the place. What different states do you work in in these days?

Fritz Westover 0:30

Yeah, Craig, thanks, again, for having me on the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast, love to be here. Actually, it's my second time. So this is really an honor to get to get invited back. I didn't screw it up too bad the first time. So I appreciate that. You know, to answer your question, I work primarily in Texas, that's where I'm currently office in Houston. Got a great airport. So I do go to other parts of the country. The second largest area working would be Georgia, primarily in the north mountains of the state of Georgia, I also do some consulting a little bit in some of the states in between Louisiana, Alabama, and some virtual advising that I've started doing, where I'm actually, you know, on site to see the site to understand it, but I'm not there on a frequent visitation basis, like I am, in, let's say, Texas, or Georgia. So those are the primary areas I'm working. And they have a lot of things that overlap. And they have a lot of differences. So the cool part is I get to see a lot of different scenarios, varieties, climate and challenges.

Craig Macmillan 1:26

So let's, let's start with Texas, obviously, we're very interested in sustainability, and sustainable approaches to problems, roadblocks, obstacles, issues, and every region that I'm familiar with anywhere, they have different sustainability issues and hurdles, you know, you say like, oh, here, we're doing this in a sustainable way to do it. And these other people, people are like ah that't not going to work for us. So they're trying to find a different way. So in the case of Texas, which I understand is now not just the hill country, it's quite a broad spectrum of climates and soils and whatnot. What are some of the challenges that Texas growers and these different regions are facing?

Fritz Westover 2:03

Yeah, great question. And, you know, if you look at Texas, it's a state roughly the size of France. So there's a lot of different growing regions in Texas, anywhere from the Gulf Coast region to which is you know, the eastern part of North Texas. Closer to Oklahoma, there's grapes grown that far north and Texas to hill country, which is outside of Austin, Fredericksburg, San Antonio, that's probably where the majority of wineries are, and also a large concentration of vineyards. And then the majority by far of grapes grown in Texas are grown on the High Plains region, which is West Texas, or northwest on the High Plains. That's about 3000 to 4000 feet above sea level. So we have a lot large range and climate and topography and rainfall. I mean, we can get 40 inches in East Texas a year and 10 inches in West Texas a year. And we haven't had that much unless Texas this year, there's been a drought that's affected growers,

Craig Macmillan 2:58

How much of that rain is during the growing season?

Fritz Westover 3:00

Okay, so in Texas, the rain can come at any time. It's not necessarily seasonal. So we don't have the luxury of saying, hey, you know, harvest is done, we should be getting some rain. Now let's plant a cover crop, and let the soil profile fill for the winter. In fact, sometimes we have to irrigate in the wintertime to keep our profile moist. In other times, it's raining, right at harvest or right before harvest or right at bloom when you don't want rain necessarily in a vineyard setting. But in terms of sustainability, if you start on the east part of Texas, and that's our example we're using now we have severe Pierce's Disease there. So there are only certain hybrids of wine grape that are resistant or tolerant Pierce's disease that you can grow there. So if you're growing those varieties, it's almost like here's this disease is not an issue, right. So you've kind of found a way around that. But then you get into the hill country more in Central Texas and we're growing vinifera there anything from Bordeaux varieties to Spanish or Portuguese varieties, Italian varieties are growing there as well. And so Pierce's Disease is a big issue with those varieties. And so is the erratic weather patterns, like seasonal rain, hail, things like that. I think the best example, though, would be to just jump right up to the high plains, because I can look back at my consulting in the last four years. And one year, we had a terrible, devastating late spring freeze. And that happens frequently, maybe two or three out of every five years, we have sites getting hit by late spring freeze, and it takes out a majority of the crop. So now you see these orchard right or other types of fans going up. And those are there for when we have, you know, a radiational freeze, we can we can hopefully skirt through that. So you put these expensive fans up, you solve the problem. And then the next year, you think you've got that you get through the freeze, there's no freeze at all late spring, right? And then all of a sudden, you're just at the point where you finish shoot thinning all of your vines and everything's perfect and set for the year. And then it hails and then you get a hailstorm takes up all of all of your crop for the year and set you back another year. So then what are we doing? We're putting up helmets and a lot of vineyards in West Texas now. So you put up the hill net And that solves with a physical barrier, the hill issue. So now you got the fans for the late spring freeze. You've got the netting for the hail, which also can protect from birds and other things. We're using that year round. So the next year comes up, we don't get away spring freeze, we don't get a hail. What we had instead was this freeze in the fall and early fall freeze, where it got down in October, late October, just after harvest got down into the 20s, which doesn't seem like it should do a lot of damage. But I mean, it will if vines are not cold hardy and ready for it. It's devastating. I wrote a little bit about that and wine business monthly for an article a few months ago and summarized it. But the summary here is that it wholesale killed vines, took vines down to the graft knocked out cordons, and there's a lot of retraining that needs to be done. So now the question is, okay, what's the variety of grape we can plant that's late bud burst right to get past the spring freeze late spring freeze that harvest early. So we had time to harden off for the winter and not get hit by that early fall freeze. And, you know, is bulletproof and doesn't get hit by hail? Right. That'd be nice. But that's,

Craig Macmillan 6:03

I was gonna say it's hail resistant. I can't wait to see the plant breeding on that one.

Fritz Westover 6:07

Yeah,right. Oh, by the way, consumers have to love the wine made from it, and it has to be a good yielder. Okay, is that too much to ask Craig?

Craig Macmillan 6:14

No,? the plant breeding community can take care of that I'm I'm concerned.

Fritz Westover 6:19

I hope you're right. We could use it. I'd like to get invited to their to their planning meeting, I can give them some input. Those are some examples. But you know, Pierce's Disease, water is a big thing. Just like in California, we you know, we have limited water supplies in certain areas of the state, I'm sure you'll you'll want to touch on that. And, you know, its water quality, too, is an issue in some areas. But the really the erratic changes in climate that we see from year to year, it's, there's, you know, there's always a surprise, if you don't like the weather, just wait an hour, and it'll change.

Craig Macmillan 6:51

I'm glad you brought that up. Because I am a big believer in if you plant the right plant in the right place. That's how you address a lot of sustainability issues. So for instance, California, what we've done is we planted lots and lots of Chardonnay in areas that are like perfect, prone for powdery mildew, you know, it's 75 or 80, every single day year round. There's coastal fog is just designed to have disease and you look at it and you're like, Oh man, what maybe we shouldn't be doing that we could cut our chemical load down and we weren't planting this plant in this environment. But the problem is it makes great wine wine quality, that's where you want to be, you know, and so there's some tension there. I am very interested in this variety selection piece. So for instance, I understand that I don't know in detail in Texas, I don't really do grow vinifera you mentioned but they also grow alleles hybrid. So things like Marechal Foch I think it's pronounced, Frontenac or sac showing my my lack of knowledge. Are those working out viticulturally and then are they also working out from a wine quality standpoint of wineries buying these making products that people are buying because that would be like this, your solution is finding varieties that are going to tolerate. Can you turn that around then into a product. How's that going?

Fritz Westover 8:07

to be exact in Texas, there's there are not a lot of hybrid vineyards, it's mostly vinifera. However, if you go to the Gulf Coast region, that is where we do, we do grow primarily Pierce's Disease tolerant hybrid. So that would be blanc Du Bois or Lenoir. And then there's some of the Andy Walker, Dr. Andy Walker, UC Davis, PD tolerant that 98% 97% vinifera varieties that are just now being planted. I mean, we're just at the pioneering stages for those in both Texas and in Georgia, where we have high PD or Pierce's disease pressure, the blanc Du Bois, the Lenoir, the things that have been growing for 25 years now or more have established a market and it took that time to do it. Right. So really, the question is, as these new varieties and the new breeding programs come out with grapes that have tolerance to Pierce's disease, or tolerance to cold, or tolerance to whatever it might be rootstocks that tolerate nematodes and salt, you know, that's, that's a rootstock issue. But when it comes to the variety of the thing that we're putting in the glass that we make the wine from these newer ones, are not quite as proven. So we're gonna have to have this learning curve of where they're best suited, because here's the thing. You take this variety of grape, that's mostly vinifera, and it happens to be have the single gene resistance for Pierce's disease. So you say okay, great, that's gonna work for now, let's put it in the vineyard in the gulf coast of Texas or West Georgia, or South Carolina or whatever, Alabama, you name it, wherever there's Pierce's disease in the southeast, and that's all good, and well, it probably won't die from Pierce's disease, but it's still going to get powdery mildew, which other hybrids are very resistant to, it's still going to get downy mildew, which we have various levels of resistance to it's still going to get black rot, it's going to get phmompsis and then it's all that all the trunk diseases. So I mean, you you think about hard places to grow grapes. It's like when I moved to California back in 2013 to work with the Vineyard Team I thought, man, how am I gonna help these grammars in California, you know, they've been doing this for so long, but they have problems just like anywhere else. In fact, I would argue I almost cringe at the say it, they have less problems. You know, the first as far as diversity of pathogens, at least, let's just say it's safe to say that than we do here east of the Rockies just because of those diseases that I've mentioned. Here, you solve one problem, and then you have five other problems that pop up that you didn't anticipate, and you then need to solve. So there's there's going to be, oh, five to 10 years before we know which of the UC Davis Any Walker selections are going to thrive in all these new environments that growers have not been growing grapes for very long and because of Pierce's disease, and now all of a sudden, you say, sure, you can grow grapes now, but there's a but but no one's done it yet. No one's done it yet. And you're gonna be a pioneer.

Craig Macmillan 10:50

You're a visionary, or you're a crazy person, you know, depends on which way it goes.

Fritz Westover 10:54

Those crazy people, they help the next person learn what didn't work and what not to do.

Craig Macmillan 10:59

Just what we're talking about Pierce's Disease, Pierce's Disease has turned out everywhere to be a very difficult thing to manage in a sustainable fashion. First of all, why don't you tell us what Pierce's Disease is?

Fritz Westover 11:10

I'm so glad you asked Craig, I was gonna say we should probably talk about what Pierce's Disease is.

Craig Macmillan 11:14

I think our listeners are probably pretty sophisticated.

Fritz Westover 11:17

I think so too. I think so too. But here's for that new vineyard manager fresh out of a place that doesn't have Pierce's Disease. It is a bacterial pathogen, and it's Xylella fastidiosa is the name of the pathogen, and it's transmitted vectored I should say, and transmitted into the vineyard from native grape vines. But the vector itself is the most famous is the Glassy Winged Sharpshooter. These were introduced to California many years ago and became the target of a large campaign to eradicate Glassy Winged Sharpshooter. But there's other xylem feeding insects that can also transmit this disease. So basically, an insect feeds on a wild grape that has tolerance to this bacteria and the bacteria are then moved into the vineyard. When the insect then flies into the vineyard and Glassy Winged Sharpshooters can fly a mile or more, they fly into the vineyard and they feed on the the xylem of that the nifer a vine that's susceptible and they transmit this bacteria into the xylem. It's a xylem limited bacteria that kind of clogs the veins like gives the vine a little bit of a plumbing issue. And there's toxins produced by it that cause symptoms like leaf scorch. leaf blades fall off leaving matchstick petals or petals attached to the vine, there's uneven maturation of the paradigm. And then there could be fruit shrivel. So I usually look for two or three of those symptoms before we rogue vines and pull them out of the vineyard, there's no cure for the disease, you have to pull the vines out so it doesn't spread, either replant or deal with the missing teeth, so to speak out in the vineyard. So it's a very big problem in the southeastern United States, you need cold weather to kill both the bacteria populations. Also, I guess, really just the insect vectors, they're also affected by these cold temperatures. So we found that, you know, you get south of pretty much North Carolina, Georgia, these areas are kind of in that transition where a good cold winter or two in a row will knock it back. But a warm winter to it starts coming back out in the vineyards. And so we see it even in the north Georgia mountains almost as far as Tennessee, it's it's really something that's that's moved around and found its niche. It's kind of working in the background, they're waiting for the right conditions.

Craig Macmillan 13:26

So what kinds of things are growers doing in these high pressure areas? And there's super high pressure areas in California as well, because of riparian areas where the insects hanging out, what are people doing? What are people trying, I can think of a couple of things that you could try. But I'd like to know what people are actually doing.

Fritz Westover 13:39

The most obvious we already talked about as growing tolerant varieties that Pierce's disease might infect, but it doesn't move around in his island and cause vine death, like it would to vinifera. So growers are used if they're growing vinifiera, or susceptible grape varieties, there's the possibility to use insecticides to control the vector. So you're a medical imidicloprid based products that are designed for either a spray, or most notably through injection through irrigation. And that's going to give a little bit more longer residual activity to deter the feeding. So the really, the plan is to know when those vectors are coming in. And there could be about 30 to 40 vectors in the southeastern United States. It's not like California that's got one or two major vectors, we've got, you know, 30 at any given time, so the pressure is really high in comparison. And so those insecticides would need to be time for peaking when the populations come in. And then you got to make sure you're careful about pre harvest intervals and things like that. So there's knockback sprays. There's the soil application that's done. These are not restricted use products, but they're certainly conventional products. They're not organic. Some of my growers who are trying to spray less conventional will use products like surround which is a kaolin clay and there's been some reported efficacy on on his island feeding insects. It disturbs them and they don't like to crawl around in the clay also I have some revers using that in hot hot climates also just to keep some shade or sunscreen on the grapes in the fruit late in the season too. But you know, correct when it rains during the growing season, you could put kaolin clay up one day, and it rains off after an inch of rain three days later. So we have those challenges too. And then of course, you know, there's there's trap crops you could consider. But I haven't seen anyone really successful using that just elimination of host grape vines near the vineyard, just trying to make the habitat less thriving for both the vectors and for the bacteria that live inside the wild grape vines. So we put a lot of focus on looking at the surrounding environment in addition to what we're doing in the vineyards.

And so people can actually go into those areas and rogue out host plants are ones that are popular host plants.

If you own the property and there's some muscadine grapes wild muscadine or rotundifolia growing in the woods, and it's right next to the vineyard on a fence line growing along the fence line. That's probably not a good idea. So yeah, you would want to go in and rogue those vines that are around the perimeter at the very least.

Craig Macmillan 16:02

What about setback well Glassy Winged Sharpshooter, this clearly isn't going to work? And I don't know if that's the primary, you said you had like 3040 factors. But when ideally it was been kicked around was not planting close to habitat. So leaving large barriers, now you're losing land as a result of that. Sure, or people tried that. And we didn't get exposed to that?

Fritz Westover 16:21

Yeah, sure. When you're when you're choosing a site for a vineyard, Craig, you're always looking to distance yourself from any problems, whether it be a floodplain, or possible vectors of disease, or host plants. So sure, but the idea is that eventually, an insect that can fly a mile is going to find the vineyard, you just need to know the symptoms, know what to look for, and be proactive at removing it. And testing for it. If you need to test I've gotten to the point where I can look at it visually, and I don't need to do testing anymore, which might McGregor's love, because it saves the money. But occasionally, we test to just validate that because every new girl I work with, we always do a test to show Yes, this is absolutely positive, we see the symptoms, and we've tested it. And now we're comfortable with calling that by because there are other things that can look like Pierce's Disease. And you know, we always talk about these as educators, you don't just talk about the problem you talk about, what are the things that it could possibly be, you know, when someone sees a leaf scorch, you know, well, it could be drought, it could be wind, it could be heat stress, you know, you could lose the leaf and have a matchstick pedal. If you have deer going to your vineyard eating leaves, they leave matchstick petiole symptoms, right. But that's only one of the four key symptoms. So yeah, we're going to be looking for the symptoms, and we're going to be roguing. And we're also going to be distancing, and we're also going to be trying to rogue the problem from the surrounding environment.

Craig Macmillan 17:38

So you got a lot of options, rather than just trying to spray yourself out of it. Yes, we've got a lot of tools, and they're not all chemical. There's cultural practices. Vigilance is always again, probably one of the key pieces to any pest management issue in any sustainability issue. I want to shift gears and talk about water. You know, my career has been strictly in California, where it doesn't rain. It does, like it doesn't rain

Fritz Westover 18:03

It Just doesn't rain as much as you want it to exactly when you want it to right.

Craig Macmillan 18:08

It's actually raining outside right now, we're almost done with harvest, but not quite. I heard early. And usually we get rain. This is like a record rain right now. Not a lot, but enough, but a lot of these other places in the United States, they get some rain, I was talking to somebody the other day about using undermined vegetation as a way of managing the increases in the water from the rains and trying to, you know, kind of have a plant help you out. And to get this dried out a little bit. You mentioned that like in Texas, for instance, if I understood correctly, you know, rain can come in any time. How do you manage that when in terms of like disease pressure or find bigger things like that? What What can you do? Is there anything that you can do that any management strategies for that kind of thing?

Fritz Westover 18:47

Sure that you know, Craig, there's lots of management strategies and they all start at dormant pruning, just like you know, you know, any good vineyard management starts with pruning, to get the right spacing of your shoots and positioning. And then it goes into your thinning and other practices that we all know and love and viticulture, and if you keep on top of that, and can create a microclimate and when we say microclimate, we mean the real scientific microclimate that area right around the grape cluster, right? Not the site, not the misoclimate, like commonly is called the microclimate. But, but that area, right?

Craig Macmillan 19:21

I've given up on that. By the way. It's same thing I was trained and it's like it's not microclimate. It's a misclimate. It's a music climate. And now I'm just like, whatever.

Fritz Westover 19:28

Yeah, after a while you get kind of worn down. It's like trying to describe the difference between grape varietals and grape variety. Because, you know, yes. Oh, yeah, that drives you crazy as a plant person. So it's been I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. It's a variety of grape varietals. That's the wine. So we digress. We digress. We digress. I have to remind me the question now, Craig, you'll have to remind me.

Craig Macmillan 19:50

You get rain at different times of the year. Yeah, some of it during the growing season. This creates its own kind of management problems. What kinds of things can you do and I know it's going to depend on the storm and what's out there and when it happens, but I have no experience with this. I'm very interested in you just pray. I mean...

Fritz Westover 20:08

Well, let me give you an example. Yeah, the northern Georgia grape growers this year had over 50 inches of rain from bud burst. And they're in their inversion, the pasteurization, they're at 18 to 20 bricks, maybe two weeks away from harvest, they've had over 50 inches of rain during the season at random times, sometimes raining for five to seven days in a row, sometimes raining for 10 days in a row. And I was just there visiting all the vineyards looking at dissecting and reverse engineering all of their spray programs there canopy management, there are some venues I walked into that were completely clean. I mean, no fungal disease, no downy mildew, no powdery mildew, maybe a little bird pecking here and there. And then there were some that were absolutely devastated. And so you know, why? Why was that the case? Well, I talked about, you know, good canopy management pruning, it starts at the beginning of the season, you know, when you're working in an environment that absolutely has a high fungal disease pressure, which is the number one thing all other overlying factors aside that we talked about, like Pierce's Disease, or freeze or climate, if you have the right variety match to the right side, but you've just got to control these fungal diseases that grow in the leaves and fruit. It's all about the timing on the applications. And this is true, whether you're a conventional or an organic grower, or whatever you may practice, yeah, it doesn't matter. I mean, you have probably less modes of action as an organic grower because your products are not moving systemically into the plant or into the vine itself. So your reliance on maybe even more spraying, because context sprays like a lot of organic products, or they can get washed off. So what we really hone in on is the critical period for your disease, which is two weeks before Bloom to about six weeks after fruit set. And what we find is if you can control disease on the fruit and the majority of the foliage, and when I say the majority, I mean those bottom leaves all the way up to the top of your VSP wires, if you're doing vertical, shoot those first 10 leaves on the shoot, if you can get those through to verasion, and you can get the fruit through verasion and keep it clean, it'll typically stay clean, and the leaves will have this oncogenic or resistance to disease at that point, they get more leathery, right, they get more harder to infect by a lot of these fungal diseases. So if you can get to that point, you can kind of pull back a little bit and get to the end of the season. Well, timed sprays just before bloom, right after fruit set, keeping in mind matching the product to the disease, right? If we're trying to control detritus, we want to hit that before bloom, and right after fruit set, and then probably again, right before a bunch closure. And if we have challenging conditions from verasion to harvest, we might need another spray from verasion to harvest. And again, conventional or organic, whatever that product is, the timing is still the same. I think what the growers who are most successful have been able to do is really not drop the ball during that critical period, that eight week period, they learn the modes of action of all of their products. Is this systemic? Is it contact, how much rain will wash this off before I have to go out and apply it again, the number one question I get from new growers is, why would I spray right before the rain isn't the rain is going to wash the product off. And the whole point of having that product on before the rain, we always explain it so that it protects the plant tissue or the grapes throughout that wet period. So that an infection doesn't get established. Because once you have an infection in the vineyard established, it is so much harder to go in and eradicate you've got to use different strategies for that. And it cost more. And that disease can linger all the way through harvest, causing loss and leaf area that's going to cause delays and ripening possible quality issues and fruit, you name it. So that's really where I think the successful grower, the one who you know does all the things you're supposed to do in a sustainability program, for example, to keep good records, track the weather data, record how much rain you get, and when and then just be proactive about about the spray program not reacting always. And coming in after after you see an issue or after it's been raining already.

Craig Macmillan 24:04

Now, if I am in an area where I'm getting rain during the growing season, do I still need to irrigate?

Fritz Westover 24:11

Okay, so good question. And, you know, I always recommend vineyards in areas that don't reliably get their 20 to 30 inches of rain in a calendar year, which is, you know, common in the East Coast, for example, that they put in irrigation and I get some kickback from some growers thinking gosh, it rains here, I just want to turn off the irrigation and take the water and we were planting cover crops to remove water from the system. But the irrigation system is not just there for when you're establishing the vines. That's the number one thing if you have a drought year, the year you plant, you could be in trouble. It's a lot of work to water those vines. Number two, you're going to be able to put fertilizer out through drip irrigation system. So whether it be organic or conventional, again, doesn't matter. There's lots of products that are designed to go out and your drip irrigation and that's one of the most efficient ways to deliver a small amount of a product or fertilizer to a vine in a very precise and measured way, which will save costs in the long run and create less runoff and pollution, if you're targeting the grapes, so, so in terms of sustainability, that's really a big tool in my book, and I wish more growers would consider putting in irrigation early in the process. And especially if you're in a Pierce's Disease, high risk area, and you're growing vinifera, then that is one of the major ways to deliver some of our best control measures for Pierce's Disease.

Craig Macmillan 25:30

I'm going to put an irrigation obviously, I'm going to be drawing on some groundwater, groundwater quality varies infinitely from place to place. What are some of the experiences that you've had that caused viticultural issues down the line with different kinds of water quality problem? And were there things to do to improve those because again, well, I had a vineyard once where we were, we had a magnesium problem, we were watering off of a municipal watering system, which was great drinking water. Wonderful. Well, one day I get the report, and the magnesium level in the water was through the roof, not a threat to people, but I was just making a brick, right to the watering more and watering more and watering more, and it was just getting worse. What kinds of things have you seen? And what could you kind of do about it?

Fritz Westover 26:13

Yeah, it's a really good question. As you know, I'm familiar with the a lot of the problems on the central coast there where were you and I both worked, you know, in terms of getting into some Paleolithic waters, that earthquakes now have changed your your water quality and your site that was very good before that occurrence happened. So you have boron, you have high salts, sodium and other salts as well in Texas. And I'll come here because this is the area I live in work in the most, we see issues that are pretty similar. We see boron being high. In some areas, certain aquifers and water sources are high and boron, we see high SAR sodium absorption ratio, that you know, if your SAR levels above six or seven, and you're relying on irrigation water, you're gonna see issues in the leaves, saltburn and decline of the vines, and we can hit 20 or 30 on a SAR in some areas of North Texas. And I've seen in drought years, this was a drought year for Texas. This is a real I mean, it rained in October, November of 2021. And then didn't rain in parts of Texas until about a month ago. And so right now, as we're recording this, we're in September. So until really about variation, no rain. So if you didn't have good quality water, and you're relying 100% on your irrigation and didn't have any rain in the wintertime to flush out salts or leach boron or other things that are a problem that build up in the soil, especially from frequent shallow irrigations. It was a problem. So boron symptoms were showing on leaf margins. So some growers were trying to capture rainwater to alleviate their irrigation issues. But if it didn't rain, that approach did not work. So they're trying to do longer irrigation set so that they don't build up salts in the shallow part of the soil. So that's one strategy, using the wheats leaching fraction, for example, that to push water below, or occasionally do very long sets. And I know, you know, sounds counterintuitive. We have bad water, less water more with it. And with water more, right, yeah, but the thing is, you need to push the salts down below the root zone, if you can, and watering on long sets can do that. So that was the strategy through you know, there's really no solution that I'm aware of for high boron levels, I wish there was one that was reliable, and that that someone could present to me for the salts, we use the irrigation strategy that I just mentioned, to try to push it down below the root zone as much as possible. But there's really beyond that not a whole lot you can there's course there's some soil amendments, I shouldn't say there's nothing some growers tried to displace sodium with gypsum or calcium additions, or by adding organic matter to the soil to try and bind it up or you know, and still have other cations available on the cat on exchange. Some growers are injecting acid using acid injection to try to help with nutrient uptake that sodium sometimes is blocking. There's other things that go well beyond even my understanding of all the chemistry behind it. But I think it's fair to say that the growers who have the worst problems and have that proactive kind of frame of mind have been have been doing some of these things to try and combat it. But really what they're doing Craig is they're saying why isn't it raining? Like it usually does. That solves the problem for me. And it just hasn't happened in the past year here. And it's not to say we won't get back on the normal pattern. We'll just have to see.

Craig Macmillan 29:18

We're running out of time. Unfortunately, we could go on forever. Lok forward to seeing you here in the future. We have the Sustainable Ag Expo. It's put on by Vin, your team coming up in November and you are going to be here for that I believe you're presenting Yes. Yeah. hoping we can connect. I don't see why we can't in just a couple of sentences again, thinking like you're on stage. What one piece of advice would you give to a grape grower in the realm of how to improve the sustainability or how to farm a sustainability as sustainable as possible? And what's your one piece of advice?

Fritz Westover 29:51

But wait, we're not on the stage here. This is a podcast Craig This is one of the largest stages you can get without actually being looking someone in the eye right? This isn't acing who invented this stuff. It's true. So so when I am at Sustainable Ag Expo, my talk is going to be about the long term view on sustainability, it's going to be about things that you can do from the beginning onward, moving the needle a little bit on on some of the fine points that we tend to overlook on a daily basis, because we're focusing on more big picture stuff. So my focus for anyone who wants to start off, and they know that they want to be doing things the right way, 10 years down the road, and they want things to be a little easier for them, it goes back to what you and I've been talking about earlier, the beginning of our conversation, choosing the right varieties, making sure your site selection is all going to work out if you don't have the expertise to do that, you should really find someone who specializes in that, you know, I've drawn upon soil scientists that come out and look at sites and map sites, on projects that I'm working on, you know, we need to bring the team together that can make the right decisions from day one, and choosing your varieties and your rootstocks and making sure your vineyard design is done in a way where you reduce erosion and foresee some of the issues that are going to come up the other thing that that I'll touch on quite a bit at the Sustainable Ag Expo is the the smaller detail things after the vines go in the ground, how we train our first and second year vines, where we make the cuts on those vines for die back and proper healing and preventing infection by by diseases that want to get into our trunks early on and establish and then all the way through to the young vine care. What are some of the things that I see growers making mistakes on that we could be overcoming. And it's really I don't want to say to viticulture 101 because it downplays the importance of it a little bit, when you make it sound. So basic the challenge is, sometimes we know what we need to be doing. But we have trouble conveying that to the workforce that we're using to the contract labor that we're using to our own team. And so I'm going to talk a little bit about a combination of those things about what's important, what shouldn't be overlooked, and how we can make sure we don't overlook it and put a team in place to get it done. Because the establishment will just umbrella that term with the vineyard establishment that first three to five years of getting your cordons developed. Or if you're in a cane pruning system, establishing your renewal zone and, and everything else. I'm super excited about it. I'd be lying to you to say that my talk is ready as of today. But I've got it outlined in my in my mind, and I've got the ideas already in my head that I clearly would love to share.

Craig Macmillan 32:22

And hopefully that will spread. Where can people find out more about you what you do?

Fritz Westover 32:27

Well, I'm available on social media through Westover Viticulture, on Facebook and on Instagram. And as you know, I also do an online vineyard advising and education community that I snuck you into, to kind of see behind the scenes on that and that is known as virtual viticulture Academy. That's really where I share all of my information with growers who are not necessarily my clients that I consult for on a one on one basis. You know, you have all this information, you want to share it with other growers. I know that's my passion is helping growers. And I've been doing that for my whole career. So through Virtual Viticulture Academy, I have a way to get together with that community. For this, those who join and answer their questions in the vineyard and share some of the trials and tribulations the what works and what doesn't work, and give some direct feedback to a community of growers. And what's awesome about that Craig is we didn't just do Virtual Viticulture Academy because of the pandemic. We're in our fifth year, you know, a lot of people went virtual and went online and found new innovative and creative ways to reach their audience, whether it's a grape grower or winemaker in this industry. We've been doing that for five years. And when the pandemic came on, and we weren't visiting sites as much or doing things in person, we just kept on going and kept on teaching and trying to try to make an impact. And just like the Vineyard Tam has been doing with all their great online programs. So so that's one of the things that I've been working on there. And then I'd really letting the cat out of the bag here a little bit. But I think by the time this podcast is released, I'll also be releasing a podcast known as Vineyard Underground podcast. And that's going to be just where I hang out like this and share information through the ear buds about grape growing very similar to what you're you're doing there. Our goal is to have some quick wins that growers can take back to the vineyard. Some practical advice for the everyday grower. Well, we'll get into the science of grape growing but we really want to focus on the how to interviewing growers and getting down into the dirt a little bit into the underground, where things get a little bit hidden and overlooked.

Craig Macmillan 34:26

That's awesome. Our guest today has been Fritz Westover viticulturist with Westover Vineyard Advising, of course, the Virtual Viticulture Academy, and the upcoming Vineyard Underground podcast. Thanks so much for taking the time. This has been really fun. There's going to be links to all the things that he's mentioned in our notes regarding this, this little show here and we hope that you check them out tons of great stuff. One thing that Fritz does really well is communicate to the world. He's got he's got the Twitter, he's got the Instagram, he's got the Facebook, he's got the website really easy to find really great information super useful. We really appreciate everything that you're doing. I think one of the things I just want to say personally is that you know, to the public Fritz has been a an asset to the viticulture community throughout the United States in a way that I can't think of very many other people have been just speaking personally, I really appreciate that because you people who are really passionate about it and are really knowledgeable about it, and here's the piece that are willing to go out, who are willing to get on a plane or willing to get in a truck and really go out and meet one on one with people and then stay connected, whether it's virtual or otherwise, I think is really fantastic. And so you should be applauded for that.

Fritz Westover 35:38

Thank you, Craig, so much for having me and thanks to the vineyard team as well.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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The number of winery businesses has grown, on average, 4.5% each year for the past five years, with over 7600 wineries currently operating in 2022. Among the dizzying sea of wine options, having a certification differentiates your brand!

Today we look at how adding a certification logo to your label can increase your wine sales.

When wine shoppers pick your bottle from the shelf and see a certification logo like SIP Certified, they can feel good knowing that they are supporting a system of winegrowing that is done with conscious care for the people and the planet.

Consumers are looking for Sustainability In terms of where consumers believe sustainability is the most important, unsurprisingly, it's the industries that are part of their everyday lives -- especially products as opposed to services.

According to Morning Consult's 2022 Sustainability Report: What Sustainability Means to Consumers, when asked about the importance of sustainability in a variety of industries, over 80% of respondents said it's important in the food and beverage industry.

If you are a SIP Certified wine brand, you fit the ticket! Since you're doing all of the hard work to become certified you can easily take the next step to put the logo on your bottle.

Why Certify Your Wines? If you're going through the process to certify your vineyard or are sourcing sustainable grapes, you may wonder why you should take the time to add the logo to the label and certify your wines. The answer is simple: consumers seek easy ways to find and identify sustainable wine.

Wine labels are one of the most frequently used sources for identifying sustainable wines -- which makes sense! Unless a consumer knows where you source your fruit or that the vineyard named on your wine label is sustainable, how else would they be able to know that your wine was produced with sustainably grown grapes?

Putting a certification logo on your bottle is the best way to ensure your product can easily be identified as sustainable by consumers when you aren't there to tell them.

Are you eligible to use the sip certified logo on your label? Any wine made with at least 85% SIP Certified fruit -- estate or purchased -- can bear the SIP Certified seal. All you need to do is complete a Wine Application and send it to a Wine Inspector. The inspection is all done remotely via email exchange of chain of custody documentation.

Visit our Get Certified: Wine page to read more about wine certification, and email whitney@vineyardteam.org if you have any questions.

Check out the show notes for links to this article and all of the consumer research resources mentioned and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Is Wine Certification Worth It? * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified * SIP Certify Your Wines

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Think most nematodes are parasitic? Actually, the majority are beneficial and can provide biological control for bacteria, fungi and other nematodes. Deborah Neher, Professor in the Department of Plant and Soil Science at the University of Vermont explains that the name nematode in Latin means roundworm. But do not confuse these worms with the common earthworm. They have a very simple anatomy that is purely dedicated to eating and reproduction. The microscopic, aquatic organisms live in water films that surround soil particles. Nematodes are the most numerous soil-dwelling animal and can live in extreme conditions. Listen in to learn how nematodes fit into a healthy soil system.

References: * 28: Understanding Soil Health (podcast) * 72: Soil Microbes and Nutrient Availability (podcast) * Ecology of Plant and Free-Living Nematodes in Natural and Agricultural Soil * Neher Lab * Neher Lab Publications * Perspectives article that covers history and approach to soil health with research agenda to soil health: Resilient soils for resilient farms: An integrative approach to assess, promote and value soil health for small- and medium-size farms. * Role of Nematodes in Soil Health and Their Use as Indicators * SIP Certified * Soil Builders Module 3d: Compost for Soil Function and Disease Suppression, 9 December 2021. Invited Webinar Presentation (podcast) * Soil community composition and ecosystem processes: Comparing agricultural ecosystems with natural ecosystems * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 | Use code PODCAST for $50 off * The soil symphony. Interview by Leah Kelleher, 8 August 2020 (podcast)

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And with me today is Dr. Deborah Neher. She's a professor at University of Vermont and has done some really, really interesting work on soil health in particular, micro organisms and what role they play. And so today we're gonna talk about nematodes. I'm excited.

Deborah Neher 0:15

Yeah, it's great to be here. nematodes get me excited too. Been working on it for like 30 years now, believe it or not.

Craig Macmillan 0:22

I believe it. First of all, let's drop back a second. And we're talking about healthy soil soil health, the role that these organisms play in that. What is your definition of a healthy soil, I think that's kind of a tough thing.

Deborah Neher 0:33

Sure. And I know everybody has a slightly different version. But just to keep it really short and succinct, it needs to be porous, it needs to be chemically balanced, as well as containing organic matter. Let me just elaborate on those briefly. We need a range of pore sizes in soil to help give it good structure and that also allows for a balance of water and oxygen, so that the plants and the microbes can live and have air to breathe. We need a chemically balanced both the nutrients as well as a pH. And as far as organic matter it plays a number of different roles. It can hold moisture and nutrients kind of like a sponge. And that's also where we have the biological activity happening. And organic matter has negative charges on its surface the nutrients have positive charges so they can attract you know like magnets with opposite charges. You know, organic amendments usually come with microbes as well as nutrients so they're bringing the life into soil and supporting that.

Craig Macmillan 1:31

And speaking of life, that's what a lot of your work has been the the soil microbiome plays a huge role and how that functions obviously and different organisms have different roles. So we have bacteria, fungi, we have protozoa, we have nematodes, am I leaving anybody out I don't want to leave anybody out.

Deborah Neher 1:49

Micro arthropods is another big one like mites is another one.

Craig Macmillan 1:53

Oh, yeah, that's right. When we do we don't talk about that much at least in my experience is the nematode part of it. What exactly is a nematode? First of all.

Deborah Neher 2:01

So the term nematode might be a bit foreign, it is a Latin word. If we translate it into English, it means round worm. And they are different than earthworms. They are different taxonomic phyla, so very different. One thing you will notice when you look at a nematode is it moves very differently than an earthworm. It has kind of a snake like S shaped movement, and that's because it only has longitudinal muscles, so it's not very coordinated. Nematodes are the most numerous of all soil dwelling animals. There's a great quote about how abundant they are. This quote is by a famous nematologist about 100 years ago, his name was Nathan Cobb, and he said, nematodes are so numerous that if you were to zap the earth, and just leave the nematodes representing the structure there, went outer space and looked back, you would be able to see see the Earth and the contours of the earth based on where the nematodes are. If you knew the associations of those nematodes and plants and animals well enough, you'd even be able to tell which plant and animal communities were wher. Back to kind of what they are there, you know, the very minute the soil nematodes are microscopic in size, one millimeter would be a very large one, you'd be able to see that kind of with your naked eye, but we usually have to look at soil nematodes, through a microscope. These tiny round worms, they basically are aquatic organisms, they live in the water films that surround soil particles. So I like to refer to them as the other aquatic organisms. And they're so tiny that they're forced to really navigate within the existing pore structure of soil within those water films. They are different from earthworm. Earthworms can move soil particles, these guys can't. Another kind of interesting thing, if you looked at their anatomy, it's very simple. They basically their whole anatomy is only about getting food and having sex, okay? They don't have any eyes, they don't have any appendages. They're determining where they're going based on kind of touch and smell chemical cues, as I'd like to say they've just got life down to the basics, just eating and having sex. And their whole whole body structure is based on that.

Craig Macmillan 4:28

They are relatively simple. What are some of the major categories of nematodes because there's a huge array of different even beyond genus just types and categories and do all kinds of different things. What are some of the major categories?

Deborah Neher 4:41

Yeah, I like to think about the categories we call them kind of feeding groups or trophic groups would be a way to think about it. Most people when they think of nematodes they automatically think about plant parasites, and that is an important, you know, group of nematodes but that's usually a minority. The majority of nematodes are actually beneficial. And they can be categorized into groups. One group would be bacterial feeding nematodes, another one that feeds on fungi. Another group that's actually predacious. And those can actually feed on protest or other nematodes. So they could have like a biological control component. And then we have some that we call omnivores, meaning they eat a variety of food sources. But those predators and omnivores are kind of higher up on the food chain than those that are feeding on the microbes. So you kind of almost have a whole food web just have nematodes.

Craig Macmillan 5:40

Wow, that's a that's pretty, pretty amazing. They also though, were parasitic to animals, their animal parasitic nematodes as well, right?

Deborah Neher 5:48

Yes, there are animal nematodes. These tend to be much larger than the ones you see in soil. They're not you know, restricted to going between the particles of soil. They're actually in the cavities, you know, the digestive cavities of animals. So examples like intestinal roundworms, pinworms, hookworms, those would be examples of nematodes that can be inside vertebrates, and those are very serious parasites.

Craig Macmillan 6:11

Yeah. And so that kind of where I was going for, which you've been very helpful was it's a type of organism that is incredibly diverse, all aspects of life on Earth are connected to nematode in some fashion. Now going back to soil specifically, so what are the roles that different kinds of nematodes play in the functioning of the healthy soil?

Deborah Neher 6:31

I'd like the fact that you pitch that as what is the function, because this is something I think about is it's really more important thinking function than just the specific organism itself. And that's why I study them. And that two major ecosystem functions in soil one is decomposition. And the other is nutrient cycling. Nematodes are really tightly linked with nutrient cycling, and particularly nitrogen, okay, and they're not feeding on, you know, the decaying organic matter, they're feeding on the microbes right. Their link in with nitrogen cycling is kind of both direct and indirect. Directly, they actually the food they take in any extra nitrogen they have, they excrete it in the form of ammonium as a byproduct. And that happens to be a nutrient or form of nitrogen in that plant can take up. So that's one way. And the second way indirectly is by feeding on bacteria and fungi, they can, you know, decompose the tissues, the body tissues of those microbes. Let me back up one moment, because bacteria and fungi are all especially bacteria, very important in nitrogen cycling, all the different stages. And nematodes can are a predator on those. And when you have a predator on a prey like that, you know, it kind of culls out or removes the sick, the weak, the old and keeps the most active ones going. And it ends up by that grazing activity on those microbes, that it makes nitrogen cycling more efficient, they can release more nitrogen per unit of carbon. So they don't take as much energy to kind of keep this nitrogen cycle going. So they're kind of keeping that bacteria in a healthy state, you know, in terms of their role in nitrogen cycling, but as I mentioned before, they also excrete ammonium. So we've estimated based on in my research that they contribute about eight to 19% of the nitrogen mineralization in soils, which is much higher than it's been reported in the past. So very important.

Craig Macmillan 8:46

That's incredible. And so what they're doing is they're consuming something and they're digesting it. And so it goes, it comes in in one form and leaves in another. Yes, it makes it in a plant available form.

Deborah Neher 9:00

Yeah, so you know, when they're ingesting bacteria, fungi, those are all their proteins and their bodies are comprised of amino acids. And when you digest an amino acid, one of the products is ammonium. And when the nematode gets more nitrogen than it needs for its own maintenance, the excess is then excreted as an ammonium. And that's a form plants can take up.

Craig Macmillan 9:26

And again, like they like that ammonium is going to be in solution in water on a soil particle and a root is going to grab that water and pull it up into the plant.

Deborah Neher 9:37

That's exactly right. Yeah, any nutrients have to be in water solution to be able to be transported into the plant through the roots.

Craig Macmillan 9:46

And this just occurred what are the conditions, soil conditions that promote different types of nematode populations and what are so conditioned that maybe limit them?

Deborah Neher 9:56

So that's a great question. What are the reasons that I got and to study nematodes in the first place is because they are distributed everywhere in all kinds of ecosystems, all types of vegetation. So that by saying they're everywhere means that they can also withstand some extreme conditions. I mean, we find them in extremes for temperature for cold for dry. Some groups of nematodes have an ability to go what they say in a kind of a cryobiotic state, or if it's for dryness and anhydrobiotic state, meaning when it's super dry, they can change into kind of a suspended animation or a dormancy where they can just kind of shut down, they survive, but their metabolism goes way, way down. And they have a way to kind of change their chemistry within their body so that they can stay alive and not damage their tissues. You know, I've studied nematodes in desert soils, where it's 60 degrees Celsius, so like, you know, over well over 100 degrees, and they're hanging out in there. Now, some of them are gonna get triggered into this other stage when it gets harsh. Okay, so one thing that would not be good for nematodes is if you would deplete the oxygen, they do require oxygen for survival. So if you had a situation where it was say flooded, for a long period of time, and all that oxygen got used up, that would be that would be very harmful to nematodes. The other thing that we can see is if you use very intense, general biocides, let's just say application of methyl bromide, for example, that pretty much wipes out everything.

Craig Macmillan 11:38

That'll take care of it. Yeah.

Deborah Neher 11:44

I mean, there are different species that that are adapted to different kinds of conditions. So if you have, you know, a tropics versus agricultural land in the temperate zone versus a wetland, they're gonna have different species just because they're adapted to those unique conditions.

Craig Macmillan 12:01

So you can tell a lot about a location. You can almost guess location like like constant I'm guessing that particulars species or perhaps genus, I'm not sure what level would be the important one, but you probably could or should identify these specific organisms, these specific types of organisms. How do you do that? We're talking about microscopic things that are distributed around soil. How do I find these little guys? What how did nematologists do it?

Deborah Neher 12:31

Yeah, no, that's a great question. First of all, address your species versus genus query. One is when we're looking to plant parasites, everybody identifies them to species, and sometimes even more precise than that there's actually races or, you know, subspecies, we would say. When we're looking at free living nematodes, we're happy if we can get to genus. We don't even have the knowledge to go to species for many of those. And part of it, there's so many different kinds, because I might find 50 to 100 different genera in one soil sample. So how do I get there, you get there. The first step is you have to get them out of the soil. And what we do is make a water slurry. So we'll take the soil, and we'll mix in water and stir that. And that will allow the nematodes to kind of swim out of that soil and into that water. And then we will run those through a series of sieves. So we start with kind of a coarse or large opening, go through that one first and make it successively smaller and smaller, until we can collect just we can get rid of the soil particles, and just have the nematodes on the final sieve. So that's one approach. But there are other methods that can be used to in terms of like cleaning them up as we can. I've used techniques where you can put them in a tray that has some kind of filter holding it up and having water and they'll swim out of that and you can collect them in an outer tray. And another cool technique is we can use a sugar flotation when you put this liquid into a tube with sugar, and spin it in a centrifuge, they're going to float because they're less dense than sugar. So if you're trying to concentrate them, you can use this method so that you can just pour the top part of that onto a serve. Now one tricky thing with that technique is you can't leave the sugar on very long, you got to get them rinsed off or they're just gonna shrivel. It's gonna make identification impossible, and it's also just a sticky mess to work with. So, people have been steering away from that. So I think of kind of a sieving methods giving a water slurry. The method I described with the sieving and flotation method is the one that I use for looking at entire soil communities. If one was interested in only the plant parasitic nematodes, there's another technique that's called an an illustrator, or semi automated method, and faster for like a diagnostic lab. And this is a technique where they use a sieve and they run water over it, and then there's some movement of that water and they can collect it, it's just a way they can try to process multiple samples. An illustrator is is a faster method, kind of what we call semi automated will allow a lab to process more samples within a day. The one downside with it is it's not as efficient with clay soils can miss some of the nematodes and under represents these predators, and the omnivores. It works great when you're just looking for a particular plant parasite, for example, that's fine, because you kind of know which needle in the haystack you're looking at.

Craig Macmillan 15:58

At least you know that.

Deborah Neher 16:02

Once you get the sample out, then it's usually in a water suspension. And we usually just let those settle for a little while and ends up that nematodes fall with gravity about one inch per hour, wait till they settle and we can concentrate them and then we'll first of all count how many nematodes we have in that volume of sample. And then we'll take a what we call a mass mount slide a slide that has a cavity, some depth, put some in there, and then we'll do the identification of those and we have to go to about 200 times magnification using a light microscope. Features that one looks at are some of the mouth features those that are at the feeding so you can understand the feeding, but also the the esophagus, within it and nematode you can see straight through there transparent. So and think about it is that you don't need the pigments if you're in soil because you don't have light. So these organisms are you don't need sight you're not seeing and they're you know, they're transparent. And so you can see straight through them. One of the challenges is, they are 3d. So sometimes you have to do a lot of focusing up and down takes a really good microscopists to do that. Some people will actually try to fix them or you know, kill them to hold them still. But sometimes you lose characters like how they move and swim can also be a character sometimes that helps to identify.

Craig Macmillan 17:31

And that quantification and identification has been important to another topic you work on, which has been around the idea of nematodes, as bio indicators might tell you something about what's going on in the environment, just whether they're there or not. And who. Can you tell us a little bit about that work, because fascinating stuff.

Deborah Neher 17:47

Sure. First, let me just give you a perspective, I consider myself a community ecologist. So I use a community ecology approach. So I'm looking at the community structure, or the community composition, and how that changes under different land management practices. The type of index that I found works the best is one that really looks at what the life history characteristics of different species. That means how sensitive or tolerant they are to disturbance, you know, how many offspring they have with their generation time is. So just to give an analogy, you know, it's kind of like comparing rats and elephants or carp and trout. Rats are the kind of what we call early stage, you know, they come in, they can tolerate a lot of stress where an elephant is going to be very sensitive, they have a long generation time. So if we apply that in nematodes, we have those that are early colonizers and those that are later in succession. We can tell the type and severity of disturbance based on the composition of that community. And as we learn more than we'll be able to even tell, you know, was that disturbance due to cultivation? Or was it disturbance due to heavy metal contamination, or perhaps even just a lot of additional a lot of fertilizer, that can actually shift a community to a very early successional stage. It's kind of an indicator of ecological succession. So you know, if you're in a forest, and you have a clear cut, and you want to progress gradually to a mature stand, old growth, you know, there's a lot of changes in species composition. So if there's no disturbance, you'd get to the old growth where there's, you know, the ultimate would be if you clear cut it, you can see the same kind of patterns in nematodes. So you can tell the kind of disturbance and where it's at on their trajectory. So that can be helpful to know the level of disturbance. It can be a tool for monitoring if you're trying to restore an environment as well. Now one thing that I just want to kind of address a myth is the idea of diversity. Most people think more diversity is better. And yeah, in general sense, but we have to be a little careful because diversity is just a mathematical equation. And it doesn't tell you who is there. You could have a diversity of invasives. Right? So we need to get to know who is there, it's just not how many different kinds are there. The other thing, if we're thinking of that analogy of a clear cut to an old growth is the most diversity is actually in the middle in the intermediate, because you're kind of in a transition between an early phase and a late stage. So you have overlap of species. For both of those. When you're at either extreme of the continuum, you actually have lower diversity, we tend to like to think about biodiversity, but we have to be a little bit careful in terms of that. And that's why I prefer an index that just looks at the community structure where it is on the whole continuum, rather than limiting it to just diversity.

Craig Macmillan 20:59

So is this something that a grape grower could use over time to see I'm using these practices? Is the community changing? is a community changing? In a good way? Are there things that I do that have suddenly you know, like you said, knock backwards and successional progress? Is that Is this the kind of tool? Is this the kind of measurement I can use to make decisions?

Deborah Neher 21:21

That is exactly it, it works best if you're doing it through time, you need to start somewhere and get a baseline. And then it's how is that changing through time, and it gives you feedback back on, am I on the right track or not? It's using this index where I really learned the cultivation or the physical disturbance of soil has the greatest impact on the soil foodweb. And it will set that back further than say, applying, you know, whether it's a chemical disturbance, whether that's a pesticide or fertilizer, for that matter. So the physical disturbance is really the most destructive to soil foodwebs.

Craig Macmillan 22:00

And that actually brings up another question, when we think about soil foodwebs. Are we talking about the first four inches? Two inches, six inches? Is there stuff happening in a foot that I should be interested in? Is there stuff below that, that I should be interested in? Because I got roots that are down at you know, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7? Feet? Where should I be putting my attention Deborah tell me please? Where should we put my attention?

Deborah Neher 22:20

Well, that's a great question, because so much sampling focuses on the top eight inches, because that's the plow layer. But that's a problem. Because really, the biology is going to be as deep as the roots. You know, the biology tends to be the most abundant near the surface and decreases as you go with depth. The other thing with roots is you have to think where are the actively growing roots. And when you're dealing with trees and woody plants, the biggest roots are not necessarily where all the activity is, it's really where the new roots are. And that's where the most biological so thinking about where is that happening? That would be the right place to look. Right. And usually that's a little closer to the surface, but there could be some of it deeper. So I usually like to think think about where the roots are. And that's where you should be sampling.

Craig Macmillan 23:07

Well that is some really good advice. And thank you for taking a topic that I personally have found very confusing over the years and giving it some clarity for me and also helping me see how we can what it means but also how we can use it and and how we should monitor it, which I think is great. So I want to thank you for being our guest, Dr. Deborah Neher Professor University of Vermont and plant soil science.

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Soil is alive and we want a lot of life in the soil. According to Deborah Neher, Professor in the Department of Plant and Soil Science at the University of Vermont, healthy soils have three components. These are a range of different pore sizes to help with structure as well as balance water and air; balanced pH and nutrients; and organic matter to hold moisture and nutrients as well as provider microbes. Soil structure is created by mineral particles, bacteria, fungi, and plant roots. What determines a good quality soil depends on the ecosystem – a forest has different needs than active farmland.

Bacteria and fungi are the life forms most associated with soil health. Some tests show the number of fungi and bacteria and their ratio to one another. However, they are not showing what is in the soil and there is still limited research on what these fungi and bacteria are doing. Often bacteria are associated with negative health factors. But there are many good bacteria that promote plant growth by producing nutrients or making nutrients more available. Others provide biological control. And others convert nitrogen in concert with legumes. Fungi can also be good and bad. Their structure is like linking pipes so they connect plants. This can help cope with drought conditions by pulling water from faraway sources.

Deborah also touches on how to properly compost to kill off pathogens and weed seeds. Through research, she found that the process is more complicated than knowing the nitrogen to carbon ratio – the type of carbon matters! Her lab tried the same nitrogen to carbon compost “recipe” in three different production methods: windrow, aerobic static piles (ASP), vermicomposting. Each final product had completely different fungal and bacterial communities. Listen in to learn what kind of carbon is best for disease suppression.

References: * 28: Understanding Soil Health (podcast) * 72: Soil Microbes and Nutrient Availability (podcast) * Changes in Bacterial and Fungal Communities across Compost Recipes, Preparation Methods, and Composting Times * Managing Nitrogen in the Vineyard and the Winery Efficiently * Neher Lab * Neher Lab Publications * Perspectives article that covers history and approach to soil health with research agenda to soil health: Resilient soils for resilient farms: An integrative approach to assess, promote and value soil health for small- and medium-size farms. * SIP Certified * Soil Builders Module 3d: Compost for Soil Function and Disease Suppression, 9 December 2021. Invited Webinar Presentation (podcast) * Soil community composition and ecosystem processes: Comparing agricultural ecosystems with natural ecosystems * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 | Use code PODCAST for $50 off * The Compost Handbook * The soil symphony. Interview by Leah Kelleher, 8 August 2020 (podcast)

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

I'm your host, Greg McMillan and our guest today is Dr. Deborah Neher. She's a professor in the Department of Plant soil science, the University of Vermont. And today we're going to talk about soil health. Welcome to the podcast.

Deborah Neher 0:10

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Craig Macmillan 0:13

Before we get rolling, I understand you grew up on a farm, you have some background in agriculture.

Deborah Neher 0:16

I do. I grew up as a fourth generation family farm in Northwest Kansas, where we grew wheat and sorghum and had some livestock. And as far as my educational background, I have formal education in environmental science, as well as plant ecology. And I did my PhD at UC Davis in plant pathology. Since then, I've kind of merged to the ecology and the agriculture and I consider myself a soil ecologist. So my area is biology, but I work in soil.

Craig Macmillan 0:44

That's awesome. Because there's a lot of life in the soil. And we're about talking about everybody's interested in healthy soils. We have government programs now about topic. We have conferences, we have articles, we have books, but this is one of my favorite questions. When I talk to people about this topic I started with, what is your definition of a healthy soil?

Deborah Neher 1:03

That's a great question. And I know there's a number of definitions that are out there. But as a biologist, I want to first emphasize that soil is alive, and that we want a lot of life in the soil. A healthy soil would be one that's porous, that we have a number of, you know, range of different pore sizes, which give the soil structure and this also helps balance air in the water and soil. We need a chemically balanced soil, one that's valid for pH as well as nutrients in the soil. And then we need the biological part. And that's usually relates to organic matter, living plants. And plant roots are an important piece of that, too. Organic matter is kind of unique on the surface of organic matter, it's got these negative charges, and that attracts nutrients that have positive charges, like magnets, you know, opposites attract, yeah. But in addition to that nutrient holding capacity, it also brings in the microbes, and that's really a source of the microbes into the soil. Plant roots are also a source and support of the microbes in soil. So healthy soil, it's porous, it's chemically balanced, and it contains organic matter.

Craig Macmillan 2:10

The actual parameters for that are probably going to vary depending on the ecosystem, right? So what are the challenges for us? But how do I know like, how do I what do I manage? What do I look for? And obviously, I think, from what I can see, for different crops, I think the ranges are still kind of being figured out. I think what most people would like as well, I've got a five on this variable, do I need a 10? Or am I okay? And it doesn't seem to be that simple.

Deborah Neher 2:33

It is not that simple. It's really unique site by site, you know, one number can't really be applied to everything. When you get a number, you have to think well, what's good for what? And so a number for a good agriculture system might be a different number or a bad number, say, for a forest system, or for a functional wetland. So we have to really think about what is the the type of ecosystem? And what kind of land management practices are we interested in? That really depends and also what types of soil we're on, you know, what is good on a sandy soil might be different than if it's in a clay soil, heavy clay soil, for example.

Craig Macmillan 3:12

Exactly. And so today, I want to focus on the microbiome aspect of this. And we do you have a number of different types, classes, find ones even of organisms, bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes, silicates, nematota, there's probably others that I'm forgetting. But today, I want to focus on the bacteria and the fungi, because those are two things that you can send to you send a sample to a lab, and you will get some measures of those. And it's like, okay, cool, but what are they doing? Right, so what role do different kinds of bacteria play in the functioning of a healthy soil?

Deborah Neher 3:44

A great question. And I'll just start with, I think we have to be really careful not to over generalize and say all bacteria are alike, or all fungi are alike. Because there are such a broad diversity. There's 1000s of 1000s of species, and different species do different things. And I also like to think of microbiome kind of like an orchestra, you need all the different players and working together. You don't just want specialists and soloist, you need the whole ensemble, right? If we go back to bacteria, there's a lot of different bacteria there are people often think about pathogens, that's the first thing on the mind is the bad guys. But there's a lot of beneficial bacteria, as well. There are bacteria that we call them plant growth, promoting bacteria, they're producing chemicals in the soil that are stimulating plant growth, the plant might perceive them as kind of like a plant hormone, perhaps or it could be converting a nutrient that makes it more available to the plant. There are some bacteria involved in biological control. For example, there's a bacillus subtilis that's a known as a biological control. And they can do that by just through their own natural defenses. You know, they're going to antagonize or compete with other microbes. There are also bacteria that are involved in nitrogen fixation, that are associated with legumes in the nodules of the legume, they create like a little factory in there, where they're converting nitrogen gas from the atmosphere, and converting that into ammonium, which is a form that the plant can take out. And one thing we have to be careful in bacteria is not to think they're all alike, as I mentioned, and even, we go well, then let's get down to family or maybe get down to genus, but you even have to be careful. Not every species within a genus is the same. For example, there's one called Pseudomonas and there's one species of Pseudomonas Pseudomonas syringae. That's a pathogen. There's another species of Pseudomonas Pseudomonas fluorescence, that's a well known biological control. Now, fungi, fungi have equally different, you know, variety of lifestyles or things they do. There's also fungal pathogens, there's those that are decomposers mycorrhizae. That's a popular topic these days, that's a type of fungus. The cool thing about them is they're like a big plumbing system, they have this body structure that's like long pipes. They're called hyphae. And they can connect between different plants and go long distances. So they can be helpful to help plants say cope with drought, for example, because they can pull water from a great distance and pull that into a central use. I also mentioned the that an important attribute of healthy soils, I think, is aggregate structure. And these aggregates are really a composite of not only the mineral particles of soil, but it links in the bacteria that produce sugars on their outside their sticky, helping those hold together. And the fungal hyphae, which act like threads that weave these together and then plant roots to they're really working in concert with that soil to help provide this structure. Aggregate stability is I think, an excellent indicator that we can measure of soil health.

Craig Macmillan 7:04

Is that's related to bulk density?

Deborah Neher 7:06

Ah, good question. Indirectly, aggregateability can be related to bulk density. Usually, if you have more aggregates, you actually have lower bulk density. Okay, because an aggregate is going to have open spaces, it's going to have a balance of air and water. So bulk density would be just thinking about the solid particles per unit volume. So if you fluffed those up with more spaces and voids, within that aggregate, you'll have less bulk density.

Craig Macmillan 7:36

Is there is there a way that I can can measure or investigate aggregates?

Deborah Neher 7:41

Yeah, that's a good question. As far as aggregate stability, there are some really fancy advanced methods that organizations like NRCS, the Natural Resource Conservation Service do and if you're a soil scientist you get into there's also some really simple things that you could do. The simplest one I ever saw was taking an egg carton and in the base of those putting clumps of soil and then adding a little bit of water into each of those and see how much that disintegrates once you add water. If it just all crumbles and become small particles, you do not have very good structure. It should stay fairly intact when you're dripping that water on there.

Craig Macmillan 8:22

Interesting interesting. I'm just thinking about clay so we have a lot of a lot of vineyards are in clay, clay, gravelly clay, loams, etc on the Coast California and and other places. And how hard it is the water to go in to those clay soils. So I'm thinking about like dropping putting water on a chunk of clay and and just seeing it kind of get slimy.

Deborah Neher 8:44

Yeah, clays are tough clays are really tough.

Craig Macmillan 8:47

Are there ways to at least get a sense of how much life there is in this the soil? I mean, I know that that like, oh, that's got to have this or that. But other kind of metrics that are ways of investigating or anything that I can do. So for instance, I've been looking at some lab reports recently where they give us a total bacteria to active bacteria ratio, and they give us some ranges, then they actually will give us some actual identifications of particular nematodes that are found total funded active. Okay. So I've been trying to figure out kind of how to interpret that. But then I'm also curious, so how do you cope with that kind of thing? Is this a gene sequencing thing? Or is it a mass based thing or you pour the reagent on and it turns blue?

Deborah Neher 9:29

Great question. And I've worked with some of the methods, those measures that you're talking about are really, I think, defined as total and active bacteria, total and active fungi, right? Those methods, at least when I've used them involve a stain, kind of a fluorescent stain that you put on. And then you're actually making those into onto microscope slides and using the microscope so you have to spend time behind the microscope and you're counting, you know the number of cells or the number of hyphae that are crossing, you have a grid there, a grid pattern, and you're counting it. And that allows you to be quantitative. It's a laborious method, I would say it is the gold standard, if you want to actually get an estimate of total microbial biomass and activity, however, it's very tedious and very laborious. Another approach that people have used is one that's called PLFA phospho lipid fatty acids. That one is an easier method to get an estimate of biomass and activity. These are giving you some estimates. But this is where I say we have to be careful about overgeneralizing because this tells us nothing about who is there or what they're doing. We just knows there's a lot of them. And that's step one. Sometimes we hear a generalization about what about the ratio of fungi to bacteria, for example, and it's been touted that we want to strive for a higher ratio of fungi to bacteria. I'll tell you this concept really comes it from literature and science that was done in the 1980s. Really, the focus was on the effect of cultivation and tilling the soil. That's what it's really representing. Because when we go and cultivate and till soil, in fact, that's probably the most destructive thing we can do to the soil biology, you're just like ripping their house in their habitat into shreds. You're wrecking that pore structure. But anyway, so in cultivation, when we have highly tilled soils, that tends to favor bacteria. I mean, if you think about it, lots of threads, you know, for the hyphae. If you're slicing through there with knives, you're breaking those up. So that's deleterious to fungi. It's also deleterious to earthworms and also deleterious to other micro arthropods and larger organisms. So with cultivation, it's known that those tend to be fairly bacterially dominated soils. And so the thinking is, then if you go with a reduced till, or no till you're going to have more fungi. And so you'll start to see that ratio increase that, you know, tells us something about cultivation. I guess being trained as a plant pathologist, my first thing is we need to know at least who is there? Are we talking about pathogens? Or are we talking about beneficials? If all of those and most of them are pathogens, we don't want them? That's not necessarily a good thing, if all those fungi are pathogens, like ferrocerium or verticillium, or yeah, so we need to know who they are. That's the tip of the iceberg, right?

Craig Macmillan 12:38

You're working on related work, you actually do go down to the species level, when you do figure that out to describe the community in whatever system it is you're looking at. How do you actually do that?

Deborah Neher 12:47

Traditionally, we we use agar plates, and we try to culture these organisms. And it took very specialized media, some organisms grow faster than others. So we put things on there biocides to try to inhibit the ones we didn't want and allow the ones we did want, we call that a selective or a semi selective media. But then we learned only about 10% of microbes can live on a petri dish. So we were just looking at a subset of these organisms that did well. And consequently, we are missing a lot. But that's where the molecular techniques have come in, and helped us discover all those organisms that are not able to be cultured on a petri dish. There are techniques where you can take a soil and you can extract the DNA out of that. And then we use a series of steps, we call it amplicon sequencing, we put out what's called a primer on there, and it's going to copy a specific region of that DNA. And it's usually a region that's highly variable between species. And then once we extract that DNA, we can go through a process called a PCR Polymerase Chain Reaction just makes lots of copies. And then we can look at the sequence and there's databases that have sequences, and that helps us match to who is there, you know, the technology keeps improving, the longer the pieces we have, the better resolution we're gonna have. If they're short pieces, we may only get to family or genus longer pieces, that technology keeps improving. So we'll get more species.

Craig Macmillan 14:27

Do you think this kind of technology is going to find its way into the commercial realm? Or is this a strictly an academic thing at the moment?

Deborah Neher 14:34

Oh, I think definitely. And the price keeps coming down. So it's getting cheaper and cheaper to do. What I mentioned is who is there? What technology we still have to develop is what are they doing? That's a different kind of technique, and that's still at the academic level, and uses some different methods where we actually have to look at the genes and link them into a function. Are they fixing nitrogen? Are they producing say an oxidative enzyme. Antibiotic? What are they doing that part's academic. As far as who is there? I think this is where we have to understand their ecology, we need to know who and a little bit what they're reflecting, or is knowing that say, a lot of E. coli is there, that might be telling us do we have a contamination problem, you know, for example, if we know that's it, then we can prepare like a probe, a little tag that says, I want that organism and we can actually go fishing for it, pull it out and quantify it and say, this is how much we have. And then we could develop a model and say, once you're above a certain threshold, this could be risky. But we have to link it to say, a land management practice, or some known contaminant or something about land management, so we can help interpret what that means.

Craig Macmillan 15:52

So it sounds like to me, at the practitioner level, or at the industry level, we have some broad categories of things that we can find out. But there's a lot behind the curtain, we are guessing a lot. And so what's your advice, if I'm in that kind of situation where I have some information, but I don't have the kind of maybe I would like from a science standpoint, it's gonna be very important, obviously. But you've said different microbes do different things, what's kind of my best bet in terms of how I should proceed, or their techniques or things changes maybe, or the things that I might look for. So for instance, you talked about pathogens, I should be taking the top, I should be taking the top of the plant the plant part and evaluating it in relation to the soil health. So I might, for instance, have a high, I don't know, total active fungi, but maybe they are deleterious. And so I should be looking at the plant, seeing how the plants reacting that just simply what I'm getting out of the analysis, because it's kind of like what you want kind of what the grower wants, this is my take what a grower wants to say, okay, I'm gonna take a sample of soil, and what set it off? And then I'm gonna get a report back, and they're gonna tell me, yes or no, do this. Right. That's kind of where we're at at the moment. And so do you have any advice for how I can work with that? I guess I'm looking for some help on like, okay, gonna report back what I do next thing is just kind of kind of fishing for something here.

Deborah Neher 17:14

I think the first step is you always want to be scouting your plants. Do you see some kind of symptom? How well is it growing? Is are those leaves yellowing? Do I see lesions? Above ground? Is there something below ground? I mean, I think that's step one. So am I expecting there to be a problem? Those are some factors that we'll look at, is it a disease or not? Or is it an insect? You know, it could be that kind of thing. So we need to see, are there lesions are there root nodules? Are there something that doesn't look very healthy? That's step one. And I was gonna say for sure, if that's the case, then I would send a sample could be soil, or it could be part of the plant that has the symptoms into say, maybe a plant diagnostic clinic, but a lot of land grant universities have these available to growers that would help you identify a disease. There is interest in just general microbial activity, because everybody's trying to increase the activity and the diversity, etc. Commercially, there's limited types of tests available. The ones that are available are going to do like you said, the active and total bacteria or fungi, there are some estimates of respiration, which is another measure of activity, right. And there's another method that's fairly new. It's a per manganite method. It's a different chemistry method, a different way of looking, I can get your reference for the, you know, at the end, this per manganite method is is really linked in with management practices, and has been shown to really link nicely with that rather than just respiration. The problem with respiration is that you don't know who is respiring is it fungi, bacteria, it could be the plant roots itself, too. So it's really difficult to interpret. That's the really hard thing is it's so general, you don't know where it's coming from. On the beneficials and looking at the overall community. There are not very many commercial labs available yet. This is something I really would like to see. And I keep pushing it. One of the challenges is trying to get enough people that are trained to actually run these tests. Yeah, yeah. Like I've worked with some nematode communities, and I don't look at just pathogens but beneficials and there just aren't enough people in the world trained to do that. However, I keep if we can narrow down a particular like a dozen or a couple dozen organisms that are really like sentinel species are really tell us something important. Then we could develop molecular probes to those that specifically pull those out and help us interpret it. But that is still really at the research phase. Those are some of the things I'm going to do. But I need more people like myself so that we can accomplish this faster and maybe in my lifetime.

Craig Macmillan 20:12

Yeah, that's, that's a whole nother show the state of science and encouraging scientists of the future. You know, you don't even think of like little Jenny at age 10. Hey say, Jenny, what do you want to be? I want to be an ecologist, you know, it's not very normal and get that all the time. But we need more kids like that. Right? Right. Because nematodes are incredibly fascinating. They are just mind blowingly fascinating. Before we before we talked about that, or if we have time to talk about that. I wanted to get to compost recipes. You've done some interesting work where you studied different compost recipes, including what the manipulations of the windrose were, and then what the impact was on soil and fungal communities coming out of that. What kinds of things did you learn?

Deborah Neher 20:56

Sure, let me just tell you how I got started on compost. Yeah, so there was a year, a couple years here, I'm in Vermont. So there were a couple of years here that we had some major epidemics called early blight, or late blight, and these affect solanaceous, crops, potatoes, tomatoes, it was just bad year bad weather for this particular epidemic. So the farmer said, What do I do with my disease plants? Well, the extension agent said, throw them in the landfill. And I'm like, you know, the idea is you want to have keep the organic matter and the nutrients on your farm, we're not throw them in the landfill. So I said why if you compost these properly, you should be able to kill those pathogens and those weed seeds. So I set up a demonstration project. And we demonstrated that, okay, it works. Now the catch is you've got to really do a particular type of composting, it's got to be really monitored, it's what we call a thermophilic composting. It's got to reach high temperatures, and it says high temperatures that really helped kill the pathogens and weed seeds. Okay, that part is pretty well defined guidelines for that are, you know, outlined by the National Organic Program. And those work, the thing that it doesn't do is tell you what comes after the composting, they tell you the guidelines how to reach the thermophilic. But you don't want to stop there. Because if you let that cure and mature, you're going to have a lot of recolonization by beneficial microbes, and micro arthropods that are going to help you manage diseases. But you got to let it you got to be patient and allow this recolonization it happens naturally. These rules that are guidelines that are developed by say National Organic Program tell you use a carbon to nitrogen ratio of say 25 to 40 to one, so that many units of carbon two per unit of nitrogen, but they don't tell you what kind of carbon and carbons come in different flavors. There's carbons that are like carbohydrates that are like sugars, starches, they're really easy to decompose. And there are those that are like lignans and cellulose that are more difficult to decompose. We took some recipes where we could keep carbon to nitrogen ratios constant, but just changed the type of carbon, we follow the recipe. But what we found is you get completely different outcomes, that the type of carbon will completely change the micro, the bacterial and the fungal communities. So they're very unique. So as I say, recipe matters. You really need to think about what are you putting, hay, are you putting softwood you know, wood chips you puting some hardwood bark? What is it? As far as disease suppression they found out, you know, including some wood chips in that the bark and they're generally support a product that has more disease suppressive qualities.

Craig Macmillan 23:56

Okay. Is there a reference or a compendium or a book, for instance, that might have some more need to have information about these techniques. So people can try different things.

Deborah Neher 24:10

I have a peer reviewed scientific articles that outlines the actual research. But I've also just summarized a very large comprehensive chapter on disease suppression and using compost for disease suppression that just came out in a new book called The A Composting Handbook that was published in December 2021. And that is now available for purchase. I think it's about 1000 page book. So it's very comprehensive. So I've got a chapter that's almost 40 pages long in there, but it includes tables of which kinds of pathogens can be managed with compost, which kind of diseases you know, that's that's one of the features that I think will be useful to people that want to use composting.

Craig Macmillan 24:55

And I'll put a link to that in the in the show notes.

Deborah Neher 24:58

Great.I have one other thing I wanted to do. mentioned that I tried it, because you mentioned about the process and what's going on in the windrows. So we tried another thing, there's different means of achieving this thermophilic pile, you can have a windrow, where you can be turning it or you might keep it if you're trying to save land space, you have aerobic static piles. ASP is another method, just forcing oxygen into that. And then so those are two methods. And then there's a type of vermi-composting, working with earthworms that can also be used. Now, the thing with earthworms if you get too hot, it'll kill the earthworm when we're trying to do compost that can be meet qualifications for certified organic, it has to be shown and demonstrated that you've reached the temperatures. Long story short is we came up with the same recipe and tried curing it three different ways through the windrow the ASP or the vermi-compost. Start the same recipe, different curing process, completely different fungal and bacterial communities. So when people say, oh, just throw stuff together, I'm like, No, you really need to think about designing that compost. It leads me to think that eventually we need some designer compost, some that are made unique for different applications. And there's also a need to have a little bit more standardization and labeling of these products. So a consumer knows what they're getting. If you're gonna pay more, you want to know you're getting something better. Yes. You know, than if you're going low bid.

Craig Macmillan 26:37

Yeah, exactly. And in the in the vineyard world, I've been very pleased to see the composters, at least in our in a separate press California, you know, being able to demonstrate their techniques and give you the analysis and allow you to compare products pick like well, what I'm looking for here is I'm looking for nitrogen in some form. Okay, here's an analysis of nitrogen, because I'm less interested in and I'm more interested in carbon in some form, what kind of books organic carbon, so we fortunately, we're getting some of that, you know, so we're getting there. But obviously, there's way more work to do, like you said, designer products for particular situations, particular paths. And it's exciting. I think we got a long way to go. But we're doing really well. And I think people just generally interested in compost has a really good thing. And they're interested in, in learning more, I think is there. I think a long time ago was a hay compost is good. Like that was it. You know, compost is good. And then as time has gone on, we've got more experience, we've learned, hey, I need to be a little bit more sophisticated than that. So we're kind of out of time. But is there one thing regard to soil health that you'd suggest to our listeners, if you want to prove the health of their sauce?

Deborah Neher 27:43

Well, I think to me two biggies for really improving soil health is you want to keep plants in the system, and especially perennial plants, and that applies very much to vineyards. That's, that's good and also to reduce the tillage. So if we can keep the ideas, keeping plant roots in there all the time, and reducing the tillage that's going to really favor a more robust, active, resilient soil community and thus better soil health.

Craig Macmillan 28:13

That is good advice. I think there's a lot more to talk about, which I would love to do. We'll see if we can do that in the future of there's so much going on here. Where can people find out more about you?

Deborah Neher 28:23

Well, I will provide some links, you know, that will be available to you at the podcast site, some links there. I also have a personal web page that I make available, my various references as well. If you just search by name on Google, you'll find me everywhere.

Craig Macmillan 28:40

Yes, I noticed that. And yeah, I've got we will have a link to the lab, the near lab webpage as well, some other things and then a ton of links to various articles, podcasts, chapters. You've done a great job of getting out there. I really appreciate that a lot of folks do work kind of in a closet. And you very much had been doing some extension work and getting the findings out there.

Deborah Neher 29:01

My father would always ask me, well, what good is this for me? So it always kept me thinking I owe everything I learned in do I need to come back around and think about the application.

Craig Macmillan 29:13

I want to thank our guest, Dr. Deborah Neher, Professor of Plant and Soil Science at the University of Vermont.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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With over 250 members in our SIP Certified program for sustainable winegrowing, it's no surprise that there are many tried and true methods for keeping staff informed and up to date on matters of sustainability. For this last Marketing Tip in the Train Your Staff series, we talked to a few of our members about how they make sustainability a familiar and comfortable topic among their sales and hospitality staff.

Today we share three ways our members keep their team up to date on their sustainable practices so that you can use these methods at your winery.

The Key at Jackson Family Wines Jackson Family Wines supplies its staff with Trade Sustainability Resources through an online platform. Staff can use this site to view photos from the properties that document specific sustainable practices, study aesthetically pleasing and descriptive infographics, and go through PowerPoint presentations that summarize sustainability initiatives at specific properties.

There are also charts of the brands' certified sustainable wines, a variety of sustainable-themed POS materials, and documents with statements, stats, and goals pertaining to the company's dedication to sustainability.

A JFW Sustainability Stats table shows an annual comparison of various sustainability metrics, including gallons of water used per gallon of wine produced, kilowatt-hours of solar energy produced per year, percentage of winery energy offset by solar, and more. Each metric is also given a summary explanation below, so their staff knows exactly what the data means and how progress is measured.

Take Home: Using a platform to house your brand-specific sustainability information provides staff on-demand access to current and chronicled sustainability initiatives, and is a great way to educate your staff on current sustainable practices as well as what sustainability means in the context of your company's identity.

Maverick Farming Bridges the Gap Jim Stollberg, owner of Maverick Farming, consistently updates the staff at the many properties he manages.

He bridges the gap that sometimes exists between the vineyard and the tasting room by attending staff meetings and talking with the staff. Here, he shares what is currently underway and upcoming in the vineyard, and answers any questions tasting staff may have. Plus, Jim is only a phone call away. If the staff person has a client with a question they do not know to answer to, Jim is there to assist. This access not only increases staff's awareness of what is happening outside their windows but also provides them with plenty of sustainable conversation material to use while conducting tastings!

Jim also sends monthly emails to tasting rooms that provide a summary of what's going on at the property, and what to expect in the coming weeks. He tells his clients what the Maverick team is observing in the vines and fruit, as well as what projects they are finishing up, working on, and planning to start.

Take Home: Email updates from your vineyard manager are easy to access, share, and refer back to when you're looking for current topics to focus on while conducting staff meetings or tastings. Inviting your vineyard manager to your tasting room staff meeting provides an opportunity for staff to learn about what is happening in the vineyard directly from the source!

Face to Face at Niner Wine Estates Anyone familiar with Niner Wine Estates knows that sustainability is at the heart of everything they do, from the vineyard to the winery, and from the garden to the kitchen! Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager, is communicative with his staff on a regular basis:

Craig takes the opportunity at regular tasting room staff pre-shift meetings to present topics, give updates, and address recent questions staff may have received from customers. The pre-shift meeting conversations ensure staff go into their shift prepared to engage with their clients with the latest information from management.

The importance of each individual staff member's knowledge can't be understated. That's why Craig takes the time to pass through the tasting room to talk briefly one-on-one with members of his staff to make them aware of what's going on, and give them the opportunity to ask him questions -- a method that has received positive responses from his staff!

Afterhours events are a great opportunity to build a sense of togetherness within your company. At Niner, staff gets together every couple of months for a family meal and educational conversation about what sustainability is and why it is important, and to discuss the practical aspects of implementing practices to achieve sustainability goals. Craig says these events are well attended and are effective in instilling an understanding of sustainability at Niner Wine Estates.

Take Home: Team-building events like pre-shift meetings and afterhours events build a sense of togetherness among your tasting room staff, and provide an opportunity for group discussion about what sustainability means to your brand. Regularly connecting with the individuals on your team is crucial for ensuring each one of them is familiar with your brand's sustainability initiatives, and has the knowledge necessary to give educational and accurate information while conducting tastings.

Take Advantage of these Resources! Here are some SIP Certified sustainability resources for you to share with your staff to supplement your staff trainings:

Electronic resources * Talking SIP Infographics: + SIP Buzzwords for Your Consumer-Facing Staff: SIP Buzzwords + Tailor Your Message to Fit Your Consumer: Generational Analysis Report Highlights + Talk to Your Customers About Your Sustainable Practices: Answering Customers’ Top Questions + Share SIP 101 With Your Customers: SIP Certified 101 Understanding the Fundamentals

SIP Smart Training online course
SIP Certified Jeopardy
SIP Certified Program Overview Presentation
eNewsletter sign-up: SIP Certified Marketing Tips

Check out the show notes for links to this article, PDF downloads to help you talk about sustainability with your customers, an educational game of Jeopardy, and sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified * Tips to Train Your Staff from 3 SIP Certified Members

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Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi, known as AMF, has an interesting an important relationship with plants, grapevines included. AMF helps vines take up mineral nutrients, creates a layer of protection from pathogens by occupying plant cells, and seems to improve soil structure and water movement. In turn, grapevines supply carbohydrates to the fungus. Scientists believe the pant calculates the value of giving carbon in exchange for nutrients provided by the AMF.

Tian Tian, Viticulture Farm Advisor, Cooperative Extension Kern County, UC Cooperative Extension studies this super host relationship between grapevines and AMF to determine how farmers can cultivate this natural alliance.

She also covers how different Nitrogen applications impact wine flavor. A winemaker can create tropical notes or clean flavors in Chardonnay through soil, foliar or winery applications of Nitrogen.

References: * 28: Understanding Soil Health * 72: Soil Microbes and Nutrient Availability * Appropriate Time to Measure Leaf and Stem Water Potential (Abstract only) * Dr. Tian Tian, Cooperative Extension Kern County * Impact of Nitrogen Fertilizer or Nitrogen Wine Additions on Productivity and Sensory Outcomes (Abstract only) * Managing Nitrogen in the Vineyard and the Winery Efficiently * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 | Use code PODCAST for $50 off * The Effect of Soil Nitrogen Enrichment on Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi (Video)

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Today is Dr. Tian Tian Viticultural Farm Advisor with Corporate Extension, Kern County, part of the UC Corporate Extension system. Dr. Tian, thank you for being with us today.

Dr Tian Tian 0:11

Thanks for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:12

Can you tell us a little bit what's your role as a Viticulture Farm Advisor? That's a term that we hear but we don't always know kind of what it means.

Dr Tian Tian 0:19

My title is a Viticulture Farm Advisor. So there's a three components involved in my job extension, research and education. So a lot of times what we do is we help growers to solve problems, through farm calls and to find better solutions for their problems through a research project. And if they are something, knowledge have been obtained through research or other sources, we communicate with growers and to inform them the availability of those knowledge. And the meanwhile, education is occurred during this process. Specifically for Kern County, this is a big area for grape production. So 60% of the grape in the county are table grapes, and close to 30% are wine grapes, and 10% is a rasin grapes. The nature of my work, I work close with table grape growers, then to help them to solve the production issues they may have. And they're teaching me a lot of things along the way.

Craig Macmillan 1:20

I'm sure. I'm sure. So you have a role directly with farmers.

Dr Tian Tian 1:25

Yeah, yeah, it's way, a lot of times we find those research questions in the vineyard and a grower call us to say, for example, last year, was it delayed, the spring grows, a lot of them are observed. Stunted growth, and they're just wondering what's happened. And then that is actually as a start off me to look into what it is the reasons lead to the problem. And next year, what can we do better. And then, early this year, when we have our annual meeting and a rower come and they just say, Okay, now we know how there's some practice we can use to avoid the problem again, and how to adjust our practice based on the weather we got in certain years. And what other things we should taking, taking consideration when making management practices. All of those has been a really beneficial for both sides. I learned a lot from them, and then they actually benefited from the extension work were doing.

Craig Macmillan 2:25

That's really great. And I'm glad that that exists. And I'm glad you're on the job there in Kern. And prior to that you have done a lot of research in the area of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. And also in terms of the effects of nitrogen, either as fertilizer or natural uptake, into vines and impacts on buying productivity and also on wine quality and all of that. Mycorrhizal fungi are something that a lot of us hear about. We're aware of. We know they're important. It's part of the soil biome, but I think a lot of us can use at least a refresher course. What exactly are arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi? What is the role that they play in the soil microbiome?

Dr Tian Tian 3:05

That's a really good question. Actually. I feel arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi is probably a one group of the fungus were no more than a lot of other groups. The reason for that is arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi actually form the fungal structure inside of the critical cell of grapevine roots. And it's probably something happened million years ago that grapevine just decided they really liked this a friend. So for a lot of roots, we have looking at 80, let me say 60 to 95% of the root cells are a critical cells are colonized by arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. And so it's kind of a reflection about how how tight those association is. So in terms of what does the fungus do, there's a main, the three main roles we know. The top is to help the plants to take mineral nutrients from the soil. So especially those fully mobile ones and the ones we know more than others is a phosphorus. So it's in the vineyard where you have low phosphorus availability, the day you fumigat it and then just kill that AMF inoculum and your ends up with a stunted vine because phosphorus deficiency and it has been observed in the past. But once you innoculate with AMSF they're improving the efficiency of obtain those fully mobile nutrients. And the second thing we believe or it needs more research into the area is because they have a lot of fungal structure is a high fast growing in the soil. So they improve the aggregation of the soil and then improve the water movement in the soil. So that is, that is a new area where or kind of the newer research or dive into it is maybe the grapevines are also say creating a lot of the, let's say sugar or other compounds a carbohydrate compounds through AMF hyphae. And so it's influencing the soil microbial community in that way. So it is a really interesting fungus where they have part leaving the plants and apart out of the plants, and also there have a critical contribution to grapes. But it's a fair trade when the AMF is working hard to grow the hyphae through to explore the soil for those mineral nutrients. And the grapevines are supply carbohydrate to those fungus as well. So what they caught is a fair trade market. In other crop, what they find is actually the plants were reward the AMF be able to deliver the more resources they need.

Craig Macmillan 5:54

So are AMF actually do they play the role of kind of an extension of the roots? They're bringing resources to the root?

Dr Tian Tian 6:03

Yeah, kind of you can understand that way they consider the the high face or extension of the roots. But there's other arguments is a hybrid much stronger as compared to a roots. So what is probably not a really close analogy. So what we find is the root length off a grapevine is kind of the distance your walk your dog in a day, but the length of the hyphae the vine can hold is the probably the lens you can kind of make a circle around the earth for at least one circle. So yeah, because there's lower construction cost, if you have thinner hyphae compare with grapevine roots, which is thicker as compared to grass and as a crop. But that data is only opt in to from our greenhouse trial. It's does not necessarily mena its representing what happened in the natural environment.

Craig Macmillan 7:03

How do you study the stuff in the natural environment? This seems really hard. You're talking about things that are finer and sounds like very fragile, even compared to roots. And if you're growing things in like a clay, clay loam soil, it seems like it'd be hard to tease these little bits out or to study how things moved or anything. How do you do it in the field?

Dr Tian Tian 7:22

Yeah, so in the field, what our focus is we focus on the roots, it is really difficult to get even in the greenhouse where the vines growing in a confined space, but those hyphae are really hard to pick up from the soil. And then to find them to isolate them and to evaluate them is really difficult. But there's a certain protocol can be used to study that area. It's just not that what I did for my PhD. My PhD advisor was left with all those. So what my my PhD work focused is I'm looking into arbusbular actually living in the roots, they were formed a tree like a beautiful structure called arbusbular actually living in the roots, they were formed a tree like a beautiful structure called el bosque, you're the frequency of those albacore show up and the intensity of their basket or, or even the size of them are a reflection of the nutrient exchange between the two partners. So what I did is we're we're collecting rock samples, both in the field and also in the greenhouse to clean it up, and then to stain the roots and a molded glass plate, and then to look under scope. So we could say how different treatment has effect, basically, the association of grapevines and arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. But in addition to that, we'll look into plant grows, plant nutrient status and to track it during the season. And so in our list work, give us some idea about what happening. It's a big complicated puzzle and a wedge, I find it's really fascinating, but may allow it to make it a different area to study albacore. The frequency of those arbuscular show up and the intensity of their arbuscular or, or even the size of them are a reflection of the nutrient exchange between the two partners. So what I did is we're we're collecting root samples, both in the field and also in the greenhouse to clean it up, and then to stain the roots and mount it on a glass plate, and then to look under scope. So we could say how different treatment has effect, basically, the association of grapevines and arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. But in addition to that, we'll look into plant grows, plant nutrient status and to track it during the season. And so in our list work, give us some idea about what happening. It's a big complicated puzzle and a which, I find it's really fascinating, but may allow it to make it a different area to study.

Craig Macmillan 9:01

Right, right. Right, right. This is a silly question, I guess. But there's no silly questions. So is it fair to say that more AMF is better for crop?

Dr Tian Tian 9:12

That's actually a really good question. We're trying to find the answer is not an optimal level. It's like wow, what my wines are 80% of the fine roots of my vine our colonized and away call it good. It's more complicated than that. If we're thinking about a question like this is first if you like you're in your vineyard, and you do your leaf petiol or leaf blade and nutrient test your phosphorus or has never been really a problem. So for us, that's an indication that the vines, the association between mycorrhizal and the grapevines are working and then so if that does not really work, and the way you're using the test you say a phosphorus is a probably mineral nutrient or tell you how good the bond is. And another thing is grapevine we consider it as a super host. They love AMF. So listen, it's how it happened is glorified probably pretty efficient in terms of fixed cover so they can afford to allocate those were like to contribute to the AMF to you know, to establish a good relationship. And another thing for plants is they need to consider if I give the carbon to the it's not that smart of the process, but that's how we think that's happened is the grapevine so will have a way to semi calculate how much carbon you get or how much things like nutrient you can get from that. So what they find is with the amount of carbohydrate they supply, and it's more efficient to allow the fungus to do the job to get the bio nutrients. And then there's other benefits off AMF is there whilst they occupied the cells and a lot of time the the pathogens are hard to get into the into the roots and to serve as a layer of protection. That is area more research is dive into under to say how good it works. So in general, I would think not exactly more AMF is better. Its the plant make it's a choice that based on the situation. But for other samples I have a look at in Oregon and the roots are colonized really well. With that being said, Oregon is an area where we have more radical soil where the availablity is relatively low. And so that's maybe why we say a really high colonization rate. I'm curious to see what happened California.

Yeah, absolutely. And that was leads to my next question is as far as we know right now what are the conditions that promote AMF populations?

Well we find is in general adding AMF is a different story if you're have you have no fumigation going on your vineyard is relatively healthy on a you don't run into other issues it is really not clear to us if you're inoculated certain you wouls day more beneficial AMF will lead to a better growth. That part of the data or is to your liking because if you apply to to the greenhouse it does not representing what happened in the field if you put in the field it is just really hard to do that you probably need to mix your soil with also inoculum right and and now there's a some product say you can mix it in the liquid and then there were significantly increase the amount of colonization but there's so many different ways to look at the fungus so it's added to a lot of vague area what we're gonna be doing. So but in general, what we're finding is if you have have legume as your cover crop legume is a host for AMF and so they're able to increase kind of both of the AMF population. So if you are thinking about to grow a new you establish a new vineyards and the you have the history nutrient limitation, I will just say use legume would be a good choice. And on the other hand mustard is not AMF host but it has been using cover crop some people were saying it's were released some of the compounds that were feter nemotodes so that's a totally different story. Yeah, so for me the best way it's not really add more AMF and the vine will bemore healthy. A lot of time what happened is in the vineyard there the vines and afff are both pretty happy and they have a good relationship. Actually we tried really hard to to increase nitrogen fertilization rate and able to shake that relationship a little bit so they're bonds are pretty tight and then it's if you are not running into a huge issue that is maybe it's the AMF inoculation and potential is low or that's a certain things in the vineyard and welcome to discuss that was me however interested know. And then the last thinkg that happens, you really it's I want to say most of the time, the AMF in your soil will be sufficient to help your vines to get the fully mobile nutrients like phosphorus, Zinc, copper from the soil.

Craig Macmillan 14:31

Are there ways that I can test to see whether I've hit that threshold?

Dr Tian Tian 14:37

There's a test you can run to see the inoculum potential and then just to say feel filled is a safe, but generally that is happens normally in a research lab. Yeah, there's not any commercial lab I know of there were collector root, route samples, because that's a tedious process. You're collecting the routes and the unit to pick only the fine routes, not all the woody roots you can, the AMF does not live there. Then you need to clean them really well, stain it at a look at it under the scope and evolve in like way, we have a great system and then to great how much the roots got colonized. So while the way we're used mostly to say where a problem occurred is look at leaf petiol and leaf blade, phosphorous status and I felt that's the most easiest way you can now if there's a problem. But the threshold if a nutrient is deficient or sufficient, that's another another topic.

Craig Macmillan 15:36

There's kind of a proxy variable there that I can actually look at my soil phosphorus, it's maybe not mobile, then I can then look at what the what the deficiencies are, sufficiency are in the vine and say, hey, you know, I'm guessing that I don't have a lot of mycorrhizal activity here. arbuscular mycorrhizal activity here because I'm not seeing that phosphorus moving, there's plenty there, but it's not moving into the plant. So that seems like a good kind of guide. What things can go or do if anything to encourage AMF in their soil? Assume its there, relationship with the grapevine. Maybe I'm not seeing the kind of transport that I think I would like to see which would make sense what can I do to help move that process along recurs as populations?

Dr Tian Tian 16:18

Okay, so that's kind of a dive into a really good question. So a lot of times, people weill think AMF is able to assess a different pool of phosphorus as compared to grapevine, that's really not true for AMF or they're assessing all the inorganic phosphorus in the soil. So a lot of times the availability of phosphorus in the soil is changing based on the soil pH if you have a really low pH soil you're probably outline prior to planting to bring up the pH and a like that. But there's no really a particular thinkg you're really do in the vineyard to bolster up the AMF population as long as you have a good canopy growth canopy create a couple of hydrate without carbohydrate AMF wont. It's it's a kind of both it's a fair market trade thing. If the grapevine is because in some of the experimental way wrong and the way keep the nitrogen rate really low so the vines are not really growing and we have say the arbuscular frequency in the fine roots are decreasing. Our understanding of that is so the grapevine says I tried really hard but I just cannot supply the carbohydrate you be happy with. So AMF just said okay, you know what I will do what I can do I'm not as happy as when you give me more but I will do what the job I can possibly offer right. Well you have a decent Canopy Growth and your nitrogen is kind of in the middle they reach you know a happy relationship is, yeah, you know what I am ready to share with my carbohydrate and AMF say okay, I'll give you the maximum benefits. But if you are in the vineyard you have really high nitrogen status which mainly happens in research not really I've noticed that you weren't dump a lot of nitrogen if that happens. And so the vines say maybe I have you know enough ability to grow the roots I think our be less dependent on AMF or the nitrogen you add in actually is regulating some part of AMF and AMF is okay, I feel my function our association our relationship is affected the cell that I decided to colonize les. So actually there's quite a bit of research going on to tease this apart out but so far we don't know which is a key part that is playing in terms of how AMF and the plants out there are regulating each other.

Craig Macmillan 18:44

So we know a little bit but we don't know if mentioned Oregon soils and so at this point, what do we know about AMF and soil and other particular soil that seems to do well and you find it more frequently here there's others were really shows up at all.

Dr Tian Tian 18:57

Yeah, well I was thinking about this question because when we're thinking about soil type that's including a lot of things the texture the pH the organic matter the so so I'm am still really learning about California to the soil here and then I haven't got to dive into the roots yet. So what happened in Oregon is there some more clay and loam soil there generally with AMF of the hyphae of the fungus are pretty powerful in terms of explore the soil and a few have little pore and the roots cannot grow and lead and the hyphae. So when we grow plants in the greenhouse where we have have soil and have sand and the AMF of colonization is about 75 to 95 even 100. And that is a similar to what we got from field where we have more clay loam soil. So I would say soil texture or soil type may have some effects, but I'm not so clear on how big the impact is. In terms of the lifecycle, or the impact of AMF I found the plants.

Craig Macmillan 20:04

So moving to California, welcome, very glad to have you as a farmer advisor in Kern County, and you've been doing some research here recently. That's kind of exciting. Would you want to tell us a little bit a little bit about that things related to nitrogen fertilization and things related to wind quality and nitrogen uptake? You've done some interesting stuff on that.

Dr Tian Tian 20:23

My Nitrogen work is also work I did in in Oregon, and my colleague, Dr. Matthew, Fidelibus in Cardiac Center, and he's doing more work in table grapes. Than they have a bigger project to find a more efficient way and easier way to look into plant to vine nutrient need and how you're going to fertilize. So for my work in Oregon, is to start with a simple question. If you want to add in nitrogen, should you add it in the vineyard or in the winery. Because nitrogen is a essential nutrient for the grapevines but also essential nutrients for the yeast, you can either adding nitrogen to the soil or to the foliage in the vineyard, or you can just keep the nitrogen low in the vineyard and then the added in the winery. And in the winery you can have a two form of nitrogen you can add a one is diammonium phosphate, and then or you can add organic and supplements like those those products and have a lot of people are selling. At the beginning of the research is we want to find a which one relates to about her wine quality in chardonnay and also in Pinot Noir. What previous work in Oregon what my PhD advisor Dr. Paul Schreiner did is he find that maintaining a low nitrogen status in Oregon vineyard is not a bad idea. The yield is less responsive to nitrogen status as compared to the canopy grows the vegetative growth, if you're changing nitrogen application rate, you're saying the response pretty significantly. And then so that is one benefits. And second is from the wines they made they point to the low nitrogen wise actually gave more floral aromas. And then the color is darker. So it's related to a better quality in the sense of you know, sensory and appearance of the wine and all those things. They think lower nitrogen may be the way to go. But that research is did in our research farm where they have put the device in 50 gallon big pots, so they can control the fertilization. It's not really a commercial production setting. So my PhD work is to focus on okay, let's think about that were to add in nitrogen and water to relate to. So what we actually find is adding nitrogen to the soil in the vineyard affected the wine sensory quality more than other treatments, where you've highlighted in the trial, and we say a more clear in fact, in shadow neck than Pinot Noir. The reason is not really a varietals, only varieties are different. It's also because the Chardonnay block where you'd have lower nitrogen depth status to start with. Yeah, so what we're finding is if you're adding nitrogen to the soil, and then the finish wine, the Chardonnay, we're have more tropical aroma, the pashion fruit trait that is a famous for sauvignon blanc producing New Zealand. So a lot of people like those more fruity drink wine, but if you wanted to Oak Chardonnay, and then to maintain a more, the winemaker calls it clean characteristics, and then data where bring more potential during the aging process. We say the soil aliance brings more the rather fruit characters, like a berry, like the cherry, and the plum, or it's kind of in that category, I need to go back to dive into my own notes. But what what generally we find is soil nitrogen application in the bigger cause and effect on the wine thatn foliar application in the vineyard or adding nitrogen in the winery.

Craig Macmillan 24:10

In a positive way?

Dr Tian Tian 24:11

Well, we were considered as winemaker can use it as a tool to make wines in a different style. So if you want your wines to be more fruity or have these and that characters, there's a something you could do just kind of just other just a practice you're already using in the vineyard and to achieve that.

Craig Macmillan 24:31

You talked about two topics here. And so I'm gonna ask the same question regarding the kind of both of them is it what is the one thing that you would advise or would recommend to a grape grower regarding AMF and maybe soil health just kind of in general?

Dr Tian Tian 24:46

Wow. Theres so many things. But in general what I, I have been thinking about this question a lot because now soil health is a big topic, no matter whichever area would dive into and not only grower, consumer wants to have a fruit a coming from, a vineyard that is more sustainable operated. One advice I would have is adding organic matter back to this compost is good. There's a lot of things, it does not need to be so fancy. And it'll work kind of increase the if organic matter basically adding food to the soil microbe microbial community, right, there's different parts, and each of them are playing a role. And we do a lot of bio genome kind of study, who is there, but what they're doing is a series of things we don't know. And so that is a good thing. And the second is, so I'm only allowed to say one thing?

Craig Macmillan 25:47

Go ahead and say a second thing.

Dr Tian Tian 25:51

Okay. So the second thing I always think is just look at do your leaf petiol or blade, nutrient. The threshold stablished by research. That's a lot of work into it, but it is representing a limited number of vineayrd. If you have a record for your own vineyard, you want to feel more comfortable about how you manage the nutrition.

Craig Macmillan 26:15

Now that said, just do one thing I'm going to now I have to ask a follow up question. What's your recommendation for how to add organic matter? What do you think are the best ways to do that?

Dr Tian Tian 26:24

Well, a good question. Actually, I was thinking about I would dive more into that as a research trial. So a lot of growers in our region do, they were just lay on the compost kind of on the surface around the vine. So there's a benefit is actually like, yeah, slowly releasing fertilizer. But some people will say add the planting, you can incorporate it into the soil a little bit, or even after planting, you can incorporate it into the soil. Yes, you're improve part of the roots, but you're also adding nutrients back to the soil where the roots can easily access. The answer is I'm not so sure what is a best idea. And also, now they have a liquid for an organic fertilizer on the market and so there is another way other than to use a compost, there's another form of fertilizer you can add and that is organic certified and then provide organic matter to the soil.

Craig Macmillan 27:16

Now going back to nitrogen, what is one thing that you would recommend to grape grower regarding their nitrogen management?

Dr Tian Tian 27:23

Oh, okay, monitored closely, and they don't fertilize too much. But as of this year, the fertilizer price is increased to 30 to 40%. I think over fertilization is really not an option. But it's more like I feel growers like to take care of babies, you'll you look at their needs, and then you you know, you do the physical exam, to understand what's happening, and then you'll fertilize it based on that. Block to block may be different. And the variety to a variety can be different. And then the more you know about them, and then the more you can help them to gather to the level of of canopy growth and the fruit quality you're shooting for.

Craig Macmillan 28:05

And that's gonna have everything to do with taking those petiol and leaf blade samples and keeping records and then comparing them to what your outcomes are.

Dr Tian Tian 28:13

Not only that, it's also including looking at the vineyard and to walk through to to look at the canopy. If you're thinking about a petiol nutrient test, they're testing concentration, right, and then the threshold established our concentration. But how the concentration of those nutrients is decided by the canopy size. Okay, the vine grows, have some ideas on aware, research are looking into easier ways to monitor in vine rows so you can compare a year to a year. And a lot of times it catches the onset of the problem is really important. And then we're always learning I feel agriculture is a learning business. Every year we'll learn something new and next year we're doing something better.

Craig Macmillan 28:58

That is very wise. Where can people find out more about you and your work?

Dr Tian Tian 29:02

Welcome to visit the UCC Kern website and then also feel free you can find my email my phone there and then feel free to call or email and I'm happy to help if there's any anything I could do to make your life happier and you will be happier.

Craig Macmillan 29:18

And then we will have links to those things in the show notes. I want to thank our guest today Dr. Tian Tian Viticulture Farm Advisor, Cooperative Extension, Kern County UC Cooperative Extension, thank you so much for taking the time to do this interview. And thank you for sharing your knowledge. I think you're gonna be a real benefit to the region. And we really appreciate you having this job.

Dr Tian Tian 29:35

Thank you. That is a so fun to chat about my research work and all those interesting things. The grape world is happening.

Craig Macmillan 29:44

It is a really, really fun and I think that's why people like this podcast, especially me, this is so much fun for me. Anyway, enough about that, you know, thank you so much.

Dr Tian Tian 29:55

Thanks for having me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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People today are growing increasingly environmentally conscious. WWF commissioned global research by Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) in 2021 (An Eco Awakening) that found that searches for sustainable goods have increased globally by 71% since 2016. If you're not telling consumers that your business is run sustainably, now's the time to start!

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References: * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Share SIP 101 With Your Customers: SIP Certified 101 Understanding the Fundamentals * SIP Buzzwords for Your Consumer-Facing Staff: SIP Buzzwords * SIP Certified Jeopardy * SIP Certified Program Overview Presentation * SIP Certified * SIP Smart Training online course * Sustainability in Action Events | Register (August and September 2022) * Tailor Your Message to Fit Your Consumer: Generational Analysis Report Highlights * Talk to Your Customers About Your Sustainable Practices: Answering Customers’ Top Questions * Tools to Teach Your Team About Sustainability

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Does your team understand what sustainable winegrowing is? Can they talk with your clientele about sustainability? We have made a great online course that will help anyone learn the basics of sustainability and the SIP Certified Program! And, do not worry, you do not need to be in the SIP Certified program to take advantage of this class and it only takes about 30 minutes.

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Scheid Vineyards wanted to ensure their community had a place to get together and engage in community activity. Greg Gonzalez tells us about how they had part of their vineyard removed and transformed into a soccer complex for the community.
The subject of water conservation is huge in agriculture! Steve McIntyre of Monterey Pacific gives a quick lesson on moisture monitoring practices to determine when and how much to irrigate winegrape vines.
Have you ever seen a falconer at work? Here's your chance! In this video interview, Jake Messenger shows us how one man and one falcon can safely and humanely move thousands of starlings off vineyard properties.
Wondering about how sustainable vines are managed to produce high-quality grapes? Mark Pisoni takes a truly curated approach to each individual vine at Pisoni Vineyards to decide what nutrients, pest management, and farming practices to use to ensure each plant grows the highest quality grapes.
Reducing global warming emissions is a goal of every sustainable business. Samantha Aguilar shows us solar panels at Cambria Estate Winery that are used to provide, store, and introduce energy back into the grid.
Now that we know how each individual vine is assessed, Mark Pisoni comes back to talk about the big picture of sustainable farming! Pisoni Vineyards' conservation plan looks at the entire ranch as a whole unit -- not just the areas under cultivation.

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| Niner Wine Estates Sept. 21 | 9:30 am - 10:30 am |

References: * **SIP Smart Training online course * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Research Shows Soaring Demand for Sustainable * Share SIP 101 With Your Customers: SIP Certified 101 Understanding the Fundamentals * SIP Buzzwords for Your Consumer-Facing Staff: SIP Buzzwords * SIP Certified Jeopardy * SIP Certified Program Overview Presentation * SIP Certified * Sustainability in Action Events | Register (August and September 2022) * Tailor Your Message to Fit Your Consumer: Generational Analysis Report Highlights * Talk to Your Customers About Your Sustainable Practices: Answering Customers’ Top Questions * Tools to Teach Your Team About Sustainability

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There has been a big surge in wine consumption on a macro level in recent years. California production is down due to both the removal of acres and climate challenges. Because national production cannot keep up with demand, imports have increased. Dr. Christopher Thornberg, Founding Partner at Beacon Economics and Director of UC Riverside Center for Economic Forecasting looks at big picture economic themes in the wine industry. From differentiation with sustainability, to an economic perspective on pricing water use, to the need for regional marketing efforts. Collaborating with the industry, local partners, and government can bolster the success for all people coming together to make great wines.

References: * 83: Sustainability: An Advantage in any Market (Podcast) * Beacon Economics * California and U.S. Wine Production (Wine Institute) * Central Coast Economic Forecast * Christopher Thornberg’s Biography * Eco-Certifications Increase Sales * Economic Impact of California Wine (Wine Institute) * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 | Use code PODCAST for $50 off * UC Riverside Center for Economic Forecasting & Development

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

My guest today is Dr. Christopher Thornberg. He is a founding partner of Beacon Economics and he's the director of the UC Riverside Center for Economic Forecasting. Dr. Thornberg, thank you for being with us.

Dr. Christopher Thornberg 0:11

Great to be here.

Craig Macmillan 0:12

You are an economic forecaster, macro economic forecaster. And you have a lot of experience in all kinds of things. This is a wine show, obviously, wine and grapes. How do you see the role of wine in the bigger kind of economic picture in the United States?

Unknown Speaker 0:29

Yes, you know, is interesting. I'm a macro economist, I'm based here in California, I spend a lot of my time talking about big things, interest rates, inflation, consumer spending. But at the same time as a California based guy is a guy who's done lots of talks in wine country, I've also become relatively cognizant, shall we say, of the ebbs and flows of Ag and the wine economy in general, right here. In California. Obviously, when you think about places like Sonoma or Napa, it's incredibly important part of not only local production, but local tourism. And as such, you always have to walk, you know, sort of watch what's happening in these spaces in these industries. Now, of course, when you think about California wine, when you think about US wine, from a macro perspective, there are two things that are happening simultaneously over the last couple of years. The first thing has happened is another big surge in wine consumption, you think about the history of wine, we saw big gains and consumption in the early part of the century, it plateaued for a number of years. And all of a sudden, over the last few years, yet again, wine consumption on a per person basis is going up, people are buying good wine. So we know from a consumption standpoint, demand is strong. The other interesting part of this, of course has to do with the fact that California wine production is down. It's down, in part because of the removal of some acreage. But it's also of course down because we've had not exactly the best weather over the last couple of years. And so you do have this interesting situation whereby California production has not been able to keep up with, if you will, national demand. One of the results of that, of course, has been an enormous surge of imports into the United States. So so times are good from an external standpoint, but obviously producers here in the state are facing some substantial headwinds, whether we're talking about land, whether climate labor, and of course, the real question is, is how does this thing shake out? Where does this thing hit?

Craig Macmillan 2:25

That's what everybody's wondering, you know, the investment in vineyards and wineries is substantial. Everybody wants one I've discovered in my consulting career, everybody wants to get in not always such a great idea that takes a lot of capital. And it takes a long time. Many wineries are losing money for 10 years or more before you even get close to breaking even depending on the product and the place. I have had many conversations about well, what can we do to kind of protect us, you know, what can we do to kind of, you know, get it get ahead of imports? What can we do to make our product special? So that can we be protected from some of this? And I would love to know your thoughts on how can a producer of a good like wine or wine grapes goes into wine? What things can they do to try to gain a bigger market share, again, something like imports or how to protect themselves against losing more of the marketplace.

Unknown Speaker 3:16

I don't think California wines are losing market share. Like if you look at the numbers, for example, crop prices, they're way up, they're doing very well. Sonoma's prices are very high Napa's prices are very high. I mean, to give you a sense, remember I get I focus on the entire state. And I always have to point out that there are more acres of wine grape production in Fresno by a good margin than there are in Sonoma, Napa combined. Now a lot of people outside the state are shocked by that. But then I have to point out you know, California box-o-wine on some the bottom shelf there in the supermarket. That's all made in Fresno. It's a perfectly reasonable part of market as the case may be. But it's a different kind of situation. It is a commodity product, as opposed to the name brand products that are made, of course in the vintage regions. And so when we have this conversation, the question is which part of the conversation are we going to have? Right? Are we talking about the prestige dub? Are we talking about the commodity stuff? Obviously, where you're located, you'd say the prestige stuff is, is more important, in a lot of ways. The prestige wines are doing fine, but the prestige wine industry in general has a problem. And the problem is you already said it that people want to be in the industry. It is a an ego industry. Everybody who makes a gazillion in finance wants to have a winery. That's how you impress your friends. Correct. You're in Wall Street. And so you do have a lot of guys coming in. Primarily guys, I appreciate the sexism involved there but I think we know that the guys are coming in buying these. These ego wineries, if you will, are predominantly men. What they're doing is flooding the market with a tremendous amount of great products in a very odd way, because they don't care as much about profit margins. Now what happens, of course, is, if you are that small winemaker who doesn't want to go commodity, you're the small one winemaker who wants to make a quality product, you suddenly find yourself between the rock and proverbial rock and the hard place. The rock are the commodity guys, and the hard place are those rich guys who don't care about a profit, and how you navigate in between those. And, you know, as a macro economist, I'll be the first person to tell you I don't have any clue.

Craig Macmillan 5:36

Business Strategy thing there.

Unknown Speaker 5:37

It obviously is a narrow path you have to walk in, and in general, they do I know enough small, high quality wine growers, you know, you can do it. But you got to be modest in terms of your ability to, shall we say, have great success here, you're going to have to be very careful as you navigate that.

Craig Macmillan 5:55

You know, this actually, this reminds me of a conversation I've had many, many times, and that is how do we make ourselves stand out? Yeah, we need people to know us, we need people to respect that we do. And there's different kinds of ways you can do that. You can try to get people to say, oh, this is the best quality product, everybody jumps up and down. But how do you communicate that that's tough, you need scores, reviews, things like that, that you have no control over. Or you can say it's a price based thing. So we're going to try to be a bargain brand, we're gonna have this level of quality at this lower price, right? Makes sense. But there's also lots of other kinds of signaling something called virtue, virtue signaling, where you can say, hey, there's this other thing about us, that makes us really special. And some of it has to do with maybe family, a lot of wineries really focus on the fact that it's a family business. And you know, we're we're kind of the working class heroes, even though we have this amazing property in this edifice, winery bootstraps and that's great. There's also virtue signaling around sustainability, I have kind of wondered whether that signaling how effective that is. So for instance, this organization Vineyard Team has a sustainability certification called SIP sustainability in practice, and lots of folks have gotten certified folks who are making really good quality wine, folks whose farming practices I am familiar with, and we also certified wineries and they're doing a great job. One of the things I've always wondered is how responsive are consumers to things like virtue signaling? Do you have an idea how how people respond to that kind of thing?

Unknown Speaker 7:21

Yeah, no, no, no, listen, there's a whole literature on this in economics. We know virtue signaling is incredibly important in more industries than just wine. I mean, whether your whole foods, pretending you're organic, because they're not really in hand, or, or in so many other places. virtue signaling is a singular part of business, particularly today in this era, where there's a lot of concerns about the environment where things are going. So to me, I think it's something that the industry continues to need to invest in, along with what I would call the other kind of branding items. One of the things that got me into wine in general was my explorations of California wine country, which again, we all have to keep in mind. I think a lot of wineries find their best clients are often the ones who wander into their winery for that tasting. And one of the questions is, is Nomad as a region, making sufficient efforts on making wine tasting available to folks on a more regular basis? How are they going about especially now in the post COVID area, when if people suddenly have a myriad of potential attractions available to them? How is the region standing out there among all these other things that are now available to people after a couple years of closure and say, Hey, no, no, no, you still need to come back here. You need to come to Sonoma. Get up here to Healdsburg get out there to, you know, and Russian River products and how do you encourage them to be there? So I think that aspect right now has to be heavily in the minds of, of local development.

Craig Macmillan 8:59

So one of the things that I've observed, certainly on the Central Coast, and I think it applies in other areas as well, definitely, you have vineyards that are really production oriented, and selling their grapes out of the area, places like Napa Sonoma, for the Central Coast as an example. Then you have a couple of pioneers that try and say, hey, we're gonna keep some of this, they do well, that brings other people into the game. And then eventually, there's a need for other kind of other auxillary businesses and activities to come along. So you need hotels, you need restaurants, you get horseback riding and balloon rides, and then people start to come for a variety of reasons, as well as not just wine or even if they come for wine, they start to enjoy other things. How important do you think that is for creating a stable marketplace for the wine industry or encouraging the growth of the market for wine?

Unknown Speaker 9:46

Yeah, it listen, it's incredibly important for a number of reasons. Obviously, ultimately, your best customers are the customers who come to the winery who join your wine club who get that every three months case of wine. Every winery wants those direct people and the direct people are the ones are going to show up in a room. So you say you need to be part of a concerted effort locally to build the wine tourism industry. And yes, by the way, that means you have to have other attractions as well, as anyone who's gone wine tasting can tell you, after about four or five wineries, you're not tasting much of anything anymore. Yeah, yeah, you really need to have other things to do for the rest of the day. And that means having again, an economic development strategy locally that tries to build up the entire tourism industry, it's the restaurants, it's the hotels, secondary attractions, and how do you tie them all together? And how do you build those regional collaborations that benefit everybody? How do you build the money necessary for that? The other thing, of course, ultimately, is that by doing that, you're driving the long run brand. You know, everybody knows Napa, you go anywhere in the world, you say Napa, people know Napa, you get to Paso Robles, there's some awareness, certainly better than it was 20 years ago, but nowhere near that of Napa. But over time, as you get more clients, high end clients who were serving the local wine at a dinner party, other people get aware of it. And it builds up until the point that you to have, if you will, almost that international reputation of a place like Napa. Now, what's interesting is, you know, when we think about this, particularly here in California, there is what I would call those those organizational outreach efforts. How do we make this all work for everybody outside, but here in California, we have an interesting problem is we don't make it very easy for local governments to do these kinds of things. Because here in California, for example, we don't build enough housing. You know, the Paso Robles region, for example, is shockingly devoid of multifamily housing, but it's multifamily housing you need for those young folks who are just trying to break into the industry, for the folks who are going to work in your wine tasting room or work in these restaurants. If you're not building multifamily, how are you going to build your labor force and able to be able to man, all these tourist operations, it has to be really a combined vision, because there's a lot of things that go sideways in these efforts. And ultimately, if you will diminish the the all you know, it's interesting, I'm an economist. And so at some level, I always come to the conversation with a big role to be played by the market, right. That's what economists are all about the market. But what we're talking about here is a brand reputation, which is a social product, we own it jointly, if you're in Pasco, if you're in Sonoma, if you're in the Finger Lakes, if you're in, in Walla Walla, Washington, you all own commonly that brand, and you have to have a local conversation to make sure you're all doing the right thing to support that brand. And that means you desperately need local, some sort of local cooperation. Typically public doesn't have to be could be a nonprofit, or public private partnership, whatever it is, but you need to have those institutions there to drive the whole thing forward. The good news is yet again, wine is one of those things that kind of attracts everybody's attention. It's almost like Hollywood, but slightly less evil. And if you can get people interested, because it's fun, it gets people to the table. But you have to have that regional collaboration, you got to make sure people are there. And it takes these kinds of community conversations.

Craig Macmillan 13:31

Are there organizations, people positions, that should be could be leadership in that process? And what role did the producers themselves have in this process, because like you said, I need to have folks who can work for me at a wage that I can afford to pay. And quite frankly, I need it to be stable. I don't want to put a year of in training, and it's very specialized thing, and then have them bail, and have to start all over again. I want to have employees that are happy, and they're confident they're settled. So what role does something like the grower community having this effect? I mean, do you go to meetings and say, hey, we need housing? Do you go to the politicians and say, hey, we were gonna lobby you to take this seriously? What's the strategy?

Unknown Speaker 14:13

My personal advice on that is, again, every region should have some sort of public private partnership, right? You build up some sort of local wine tourism chamber, if you will. And you bring in public plank, private clients, you put money into a kitty and use that to push forward the kind of conversations necessary, whether it's about branding, tourism or local, if you will, development needs, you got to have everybody at the table for that kind of coordination and cooperation, for better or for worse. The nice thing about government in this particular case is they can enforce if you will, some sort of fairness and supportive such an organization. One of the things I always worry about when it comes to the strictly private nonprofits I get like a Chamber of Commerce is the tendency for free riding, you're always gonna have two winemakers who are going to be very happy to, shall we say, take advantage of making money off the name brand, but they're not going to participate in the in that social efforts. And it's good to have a little authority, if you will, to make sure everybody's contributing at some level to ultimately, what's good for the social good. So that's helpful as well. And of course, that one of the bigger issues here has to do with how such organizations deal with whatever called some of the broader pressures we're dealing with. Because like, when you talk about housing, it's not just ag, right? It's everybody. And they have to be there to bring wines point of view to the table, when you have planning meetings, when you're discussing the lack of multifamily that has to be the voice of the community at those particular tables. That's, of course, particularly profound here in California. But there's been a big decline in wine production state over the last couple of years. And it's because we've had some pretty hideous weather, incredibly dry. We know we are in a big water shortage, the ag industry in general has got to be part of the solution to water shortages here in the state. And by the way, it behooves the wind industry to be part of the process to get ag to the table. You know, it's interesting, when you think about the water shortages that we're dealing with right now, a lot of folks point at, say, for example, nuts, there's, that's a big enemy. No, until we're growing nuts, how dare we grow nuts in this state,.

Craig Macmillan 16:30

So many gallons to produce a pound almonds, that was the big one a couple of years ago.

Unknown Speaker 16:33

But what's the value of that pound of almond see, you have to think about the dollars coming off the trees coming off the vine or treesout of the ground, it's not gallons per pound that matters, it's gallons per dollar that matters. And the problem you have with water in the state of California, is this just allocated on the basis of 120 year old agreements, there's no economic logic used to assign where that water is used. It's not just oh, take it away from the farmers to get into the cities, we have to understand that high value crops suffer as well. So it behooves everybody in the ag industry to come to the table to have these conversations. Because if you're not there, if you're if you're part of this, what's almost seems to me to be a boycott of negotiations over water, that's what ag is, right now, we're just boycotting this, if you even if you even bring it up, we're gonna we're gonna ask you, do you think people should stop eating eventhough that's a ridiculous question, you can't do that. You got to be at the table, you got to acknowledge the problems, acknowledges solutions and work towards a compromise. And again, I think the wine industry, the wine grape industry, here in the state has a lot to say about this. And they should be part of that conversation that should be part of pushing that conversation.

Craig Macmillan 18:02

So this is a really interesting division they've seen philosophically amongst growers, and also other areas. If I have pumps, if I have wells on my land, the water that comes out of that, well, is that a private good? Is that benefits me, and is not somebody else's property? Or is it a public good, that I'm taking advantage of and we're all going to hit a tragedy of the commons? Well, okay, I'm using a bunch of terminology that and that's where a lot of conflict comes from is if I'm treating it as a private good, or am I being quote unquote, responsible. You hear people say that, and this treating it like a public good, then what kind of benefit am I getting for what I'm doing? So I very much get your point, I would love to hear a little bit more about if I am drawing a public good and much like grazing sheep on the commons, where it came from, but I'm contributing to the economy. I'm hiring people, I'm paying wages and paying taxes, protecting this land from some other use. That's another thing.

Unknown Speaker 18:58

I don't I don't like that term at all.

Craig Macmillan 19:00

Okay, go ahead. Hit me.

Unknown Speaker 19:03

You're protecting the land from another use. What does that mean?

Craig Macmillan 19:06

Oh, it's an open space argument. If you if you consider vineyards to be open space, then I'm keeping this land in open space, as opposed to letting a big housing development go in.

Unknown Speaker 19:15

Okay, well, first of all, we have more wealth, way more wind acreage, and we have need for new housing in California at the moment. So I'm a little dubious of that specific argument. And I think that the whole idea of market economics is it allows whatever scarce resource to be used at its greatest possible potential. If a hunk of land is more valuable as houses than it is winegrapes, then we should be building housing there. That's the logical economic outcome. Unless there's some sort of externality we can point to and there may well be there's a value to open space that often doesn't get priced into these conversations. That's a completely different debate for a completely I think different show is as the case may be. But in general, look, let me put it this way. Water is a public good. It just is. We know that. All right, nobody owns the water, the water under your land is part of a massive aquifer. It's not just under your land is sloshes over the place, just like the river running by your farm, it has people upstream and downstream. And you don't want the people upstream of you taking all the water before it gets to you. I don't think you should be allowed to take all the water for gets the next person down the way, we again have to have a cooperative solution for how to deal with this water question. Now in general, if we acknowledge it's a public good, there should be a public price for the product. It's as simple as that people should be paying for the water they use, which they don't do in this state. At any real level, our water agencies charge people on the basis of cost, which is not a market price, it's not the relevant figure, we need to price water at a level that will basically constrain usage to a reasonable sustainable amount. Now guess what? The good news for wine grape growers, particularly for higher end wine grape growers, is you'll be able to afford a higher price. Why? Because you're producing a high profit margin usually, sometimes water is not your cost, you could do it. Whereas folks would probably get pushed out as yeah, I would anticipate that some hay farmers may no longer grow hay. Now, by the way, before we feel sad for the Hey, farmers, remember, if I'm talking about using a market, that, hey, farmers are going to get paid for not using their water. And by the way, they will almost assuredly make a hell of a lot more money selling their water than they are selling the hay. Yet again, we end up with a good social outcome all the way around. This is a win win win proposition that I'm suggesting here. But again, it's amazing the mental lock we have when it comes to having conversations about applying even basic market mechanisms to water consumption. When as a quote unquote capitalist economy, we seem to rely on markets to supply most of our basic day to day goods. It's interesting. Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 22:14

So this is just my perspective. I'm curious, would you agree that there's a lot of resistance to the idea of paying for water?

Unknown Speaker 22:19

We already pay for water. I mean, everybody pays a little bit, but obviously, the are wildly different. What I pay for my water at my house in Los Angeles is completely different than what the guy's paying for water for hay in Imperial County, which is different than what the winegrape farmer in Fresno is paying for his water. So we all pay completely different prices. For the most part, those prices are way below what they should be. Really all ends up being some bureaucrat out there saying okay, well you're paying under so you can only consume X amount. Again, that's the wrong way of doing things. We really want prices to be more equilibrated. It means allowing the market to set some sort of price, and then allowing the various market participants to purchase what they can economically do at that price level. Is it complicated? Not to go off topic here. But let me just your typical, I've done some of these calculations, your typical hay farmer Imperial County makes about from best case scenario, 15 to maybe $50 per acre foot of water, they used to grow hay, right? There is debate going on in Orange County right now about opening and desal plant, that desal plant to be clear will produce water at something on the order of 2000 to $2,300 per acre foot. And of course, that doesn't even include the environmental damage such plants create because they are bad for the oceans. We know that. Why would we do that? Why is it Orange County's paying those farmers in Imperial I don't know. let's give them $400 An acre foot that's roughly 10 times what they're making growing hay. By the way, that still leaves you $1,600 An acre foot to do environmental remediation. Move the water to Orange County. Economic remediation if you think parts of the Imperial County will suffer because there's less hay being grown. I'm not sure what it would be but maybe there's somebody getting hurt their. To me there's so much money being left over how can this state be anything but better off with that transaction taking place? The only as far as I can tell the only agents who suffer are the cows and horses in Korean and Japan are going to be denied their lunch.

Craig Macmillan 24:42

You do have to put the frame on you do have to put on the box. You know what area are we looking at and what's a rational box to draw? And then who are the players in that box and what's the resource and how much resources there right here are you talking about the making a market for Wwater. Aren't markets, volatile, unpredictable, potentially dangerous? I mean, that's a value loaded word. I know, but.

Unknown Speaker 25:09

What does that mean? Exactly? We have markets for apartments and market for home and markets, gas markets for milk. They work everywhere. What really were afraid of a market. Since when? This is a market economy. There are places that markets don't work very well. I agree with that, by the way, health care markets horrendous. We don't we don't need markets running health care. That's a separate conversation for a different podcast. I'd you know, I just opened up a massive can there. But when it comes to this, isn't this isn't healthcare, water is water. And markets make sense.

Craig Macmillan 25:44

Again, how would a group of growers engage that? Can you see wine grape growers being leaders because their crop is different. That's again, one of these things we've had danger in a multi-ag, in multi crop counties is like the wine folks, you're gonna like, hey, we don't use anywhere near what these guys use. But you don't want to throw that out there. You want to throw that stone because we need to get them involved right in the plan. And yet winemakers have a couple of things going for them. Number one, they have prestige. So I think that they get attention. They have a commonality that I think holds them together better than other crops, because everybody's in the same boat. And yeah, commodity growers are in the same boat. But I've seen this in wine where people are a little bit more willing to get together. There is a lot of conflict within the group, obviously. Can you see growers being proactive towards this process and saying, hey, we think this is a good idea, we think this will not only help us we'll have everybody else does the sustainability aspect here because people want to be sustainable. So they're going to be looking for things that say, Hey, this is going to help us have water and also we're gonna be able to use it equitably. Can you see the movement there? What does that look like? Or have you seen examples of this kind of thing in other situations?

Unknown Speaker 25:44

listen, where your hometown Paso Robles, the classic case of this, right, because we know there that there's our growers and buyers who are heavily involved with local water conversations. They can have an they should have a seat at the table, whether it's local, or statewide, or national. The industry's sustainability, at some level is ultimately tied to the sustainability of overall agriculture in the state, just like your sustainability, as a brand is going to be tied to your local branding and tourist efforts. You have to understand the broader macro nature of the world you exist in and be part of those broader processes. By the way, what I just said is true, not just for conversations about water, or housing, it's conversations about politics in general, not to go too far off into left field here. But a lot of Americans right now feel completely alienated from politics as it exists right now in the US, you look at both parties who are talking about topics and conversations that seem almost completely bizarrely foreign to your actual day to day living your world. And you wonder how we got here. And again, it's a function of a lack of participation. We are social creatures, we exist within a community. And when the community starts going directions, we don't understand, then we have to look in the mirror and ask, is it because I'm not being part of those conversations? And if so, how do I become part of those conversations? How do I get involved? And the answer is being a leader yourself, or supporting organizations that are going to go out and lead on your behalf. It's about being involved, which, again, when you're trying to build a brand, when you're trying to make sure you have enough workers on the wine farm and in the wine tasting shop, I appreciate how hard that is. If you're relying on somebody else to make the right decision, well, then you're not going to be able to, shall we say have a moral high ground to complain when the decision is not what should happen have happened. We have to remember that we have to remember that the that the broader ag community, wine producers wine grape producers can be part of this broader conversation. And indeed they should.

Craig Macmillan 29:16

And perhaps they need to be.

Dr. Christopher Thornberg 29:18

Yes, I think so.

Craig Macmillan 29:19

We're talking about an imperative here. Yeah. Yeah. And that probably applies to lots of other things. We've seen it with habitat. We've seen it around pesticide use. We've seen our worker equity, and a lot of really positive things have happened in the last 20 or 30 years. This is the next one. I go back and I look at sustainability reports. And it was from various companies and I see lots of stuff about habitat. I see a lot of stuff about workers, electricity starting to show up more and more. They almost never touch on pesticides. That's like the third rail, which is too bad because the industry has been doing a much better job last 30 years than they did but then the one thing that I always noticed is missing is water. There's nothing about really what are we doing about water in some cases they do, don't get me wrong. Some folks are very out there saying, Hey, look at what we're doing, but a lot of them are not. And I think that may have to become, like you said, part of the identity and big focus for how people behave, and getting involved at different levels.

Dr. Christopher Thornberg 30:11

And now more than ever, because we all know that California is drying out as part of the climate change that's around us. We still have lots of water. You know, I keep saying I've always say that we don't have, if you will, a drought in as much as we really don't have enough water to go around. We do if you actually sat down and applied basic water conservation efforts, you would actually see we have plenty of water in this day, we just have to use a smarter, that's where we just fall over. Because we don't seem to be able to get to that conversation that ag can change, they can continue to thrive through this process. You we got to stop the whole, every time there's any kind of conversation about change. The first place we go is existential threat, you know?

Craig Macmillan 31:05

Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah. Threat to my life. That's a tough one. That's a tough one. It's a very basic kind of socio sociological, psychological reaction. You know, the change is like, Oh, my lifestyles threatened. Me, and my family has done this for 1000 years, whatever, which completely aligns the fact that you okay, your people been on the land for 150 years, but they weren't wearing sneakers. You're wearing sneakers now. They weren't wearing blue jeans, you're wearing blue jeans. They didn't have diesel powered tractors, you have diesel powered tractors now. And all of those things, some of them are about just changes in society and the way people dress and and culture, but also a lot of it's about efficiency.

Dr. Christopher Thornberg 31:42

And you didn't have 40 living in California, and you didn't have a 20 year drought behind you. The world is not same nor should your life be.

Craig Macmillan 31:53

And it's not gonna be Yeah, well, that's great. This is pretty much the time that we've got, I would love to just sit down and like have a beer with you. This is I was gonna, I was gonna ask you about Veblen goods. But I think that might be a totally different show, not a different episode. What is what is one thing you'd recommend to our listeners just in general.

Dr. Christopher Thornberg 32:13

I exist in a world as an economist right now, where there are economic realities. And then there are public narratives. In the 25, 30 years, I've been studying the economy, never have I seen such a massive gap between public narratives and the economic data. How many times does the newspaper use the term cliff were at the cliff edge, we're on the constantly right, and we have panicked ourselves to ridiculous point. And as a result of that, we paralyzed ourselves for fears that don't actually exist. So my one advice to everybody out there is turn off the crisis mode, you got to turn it off, let it go. The world changes, we all have to sit down and understand that. And from a community standpoint, we could figure out the best way to move forward, if we can have conversations about how we all adapt together. But if everybody's screaming under the world, everybody's screaming crisis, everybody's creating an existential threat where it doesn't exist. Again, we're paralyzed. Thus, we cannot respond to crises. Thus, the crises become that much worse. By not allowing that mentality to exist, we can actually take these things on, and all be better off, but it means Yeah, it means taking a step back and being a little less selfish and, and a little more willing to hear other people's opinions and outputs and and moving accordingly. We live in and I think we live in a period of time where people are having a tough time with that. And that's we again, you gotta look in the mirror.

Craig Macmillan 33:48

That is great advice. Very insightful. Where can people find out more about you?

Unknown Speaker 33:52

Yeah, well, Beacon Economics, beaconecon.com. We do all sorts of stuff. You'll find some stuff I write on a regular basis, which goes around to a lot of these topics we touched on here, so www.beaconecon.com.

Craig Macmillan 34:05

Our guest today was Dr. Christopher Thornberg, founding partner of Beacon Economics and director of EC UC Riverside Center for Economic Forecasting. Dr. Thornberg, thank you so much. This has been a real pleasure. This has been really really fun for me.

Unknown Speaker 34:18

Absolutely. Me as well. I enjoyed the conversation.

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The warm summer months attract tourists and locals alike to the beautiful wineries and tasting rooms of popular winegrowing regions. With this predictable increase in consumer traffic in mind, it's a good idea to educate your consumer-facing staff about your sustainable practices so they are prepared to share your brand's values with new and returning patrons while serving up your latest creations.

Why talk about sustainability? Training your staff to talk about your brand's value of sustainability is just as important as training them to talk about your wine selection. Consumers today are becoming more interested in companies and products that protect the health of the planet and the people who inhabit it, and are even willing to pay more for a product that has a certification to back up these claims! It's clear that sustainability sells, and plain and simple, you can't sell something you know nothing about.

Having staff that is well educated and prepared to answer your customers' questions will also help to uphold your brand's good reputation. Customer service can make or break a winetasting experience. If your customer-facing staff is educated and prepared to engage in conversation with your customers, there is a greater chance of garnering positive reviews, earning return customers, and attracting new ones through word-of-mouth.

Let's go over a few good topics for your consumer-facing staff to become familiar with in order to increase their confidence in talking about your brand's sustainability efforts.

Get comfortable with the sustainability (SIP) Buzzwords If you've been around for a while, you're probably already familiar with our 6 SIP Buzzwords for Your Consumer-Facing Staff. In case you haven't or if you're new to the world of SIP Certified, here's a recap:

The 3 P's

People: practices protecting human resources and employee well-being

Planet: stewardship of natural resources and the environment

Prosperity: a solid business plan with long-term goals, and dedication to ensuring future generations are protected through all business practices

Always Evolving

SIP Certified standards and members' business practices improve as new science, technology, and research becomes available

Sound Business Practices

The company employs ethical practices that treat employees and the community with care and respect

Continuing Education

Company staff strive to stay up to date with the latest laws and regulations, as well as science, technology, and research

Integrated Pest Management

Using beneficial insects, raptors, and plant-enriching cover crops to mitigate pests and other harmful organisms

Wildlife Corridors

Providing safe passage for wildlife through vineyards in order to not compromise their natural habitat

Print the Infographic below to post in your staff area, or send it directly to your customer-facing staff so they can familiarize themselves with the terms!

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As researchers were creating a training procedure to identify smoke tainted wines, they made a breakthrough discovery that links a class of sulfur-containing compounds called thiophenols to the undesirable ashy flavors found in impacted grapes. Elizabeth Tomasino, Associate Professor, Department of Food Science and Technology at Oregon State University explains that early research believed that the culprit for smoke taint was phenols with an alcohol group. But just adding volatile phenols to untainted wines did not produce the undesirable BBQ flavors. Research is still young but this discovery could help researchers come up with more effective mitigation strategies.

References: 143: Can Barrier Sprays Protect Against Smoke Taint in Wine? (Podcast)

Australian Wine Research Institute Smoke Taint webpage

Elizabeth Tomasino

Grower-Winery Contracts and Communications about Smoke Exposure to Oregon’s 2020 Wine Grape Harvest

Key Information on Smoke Effect in Grapes and Wine: What can be done to identify and reduce smoke effect in grape and wine production? (Western Australia Agriculture Authority)

“Oregon State researchers discover compounds contributing to smoke taint in wine and grapes” (Press release)

SIP Certified

Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 | Use code PODCAST for $50 off

Techniques for Mitigating the Effects of Smoke Taint While Maintaining Quality in Wine Production: A Review (Academic article)

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

My guest today is Elizabeth Tomasino. She is an associate professor in the Department of Food Science and Technology at Oregon State University. Elizabeth, thanks for taking time to speak with us today.

Elizabeth Tomasino 0:12

Well, thank you for having me. It's it's been a little crazy with conferences are back in person this year. So I'm actually at the Institute of Food Technology Conference in Chicago right now.

Craig Macmillan 0:23

Well, thanks for taking the time.

Elizabeth Tomasino 0:25

Oh, it's fun and lots of interesting information to talk about.

Craig Macmillan 0:29

The reason we asked you to be on the show is you and your colleagues to make kind of an interesting and possibly really amazing discovery regarding smoke impact on grapes and how that translated into Smoke taint in wines. First just so everyone is on the same page, what's the very simple definition what is smoke taint?

Elizabeth Tomasino 0:46

Smoke taint is essentially if there is a wildfire, lots of smoke in the air, that smoke gets into the vineyard, when there are grapes on the vine, the grapes can absorb the smoke compounds that smell like smoke. They then get sort of bound up in the grapes. So you don't you can't taste anything, but they're there. And then during winemaking, they're released. So all of a sudden, you can get a very smoky, ashy aftertaste in your wine. And if it's strong enough, it can be very negative for quality.

Craig Macmillan 1:15

And when are the grapes most vulnerable?

Elizabeth Tomasino 1:17

So this, is this is up for debate a bit generally it is thought after verasion. But some varieties might be different. There is some research going into this that some varieties might be susceptible earlier, and others may be more susceptible later during the year.

Craig Macmillan 1:33

There's been a lot of activity going on globally, Australia's done a ton of work. And we've got a lot of work going on on the west coast. It's really exciting to see the collaborative work between the different states and the different university systems addressing this problem. Obviously, a couple of years ago, it was devastating in Northern California. And we also had issues along the central coast here, which led us to wonder what was going on because people in San Luis County were affected by smoke from Monterey County. So it was traveling a long way, that really, really makes everybody extra nervous. Your work recently has identified a new class of compounds associated with smoke impact that correct?

Elizabeth Tomasino 2:11

Yes, we've been looking for it for a while. So some of my speciality in research and wine research is figuring out the compositional elements that cause specific sensory. So smells, tastes, wine has got hundreds and hundreds of compounds. So it's not as easy as saying, oh, one, one thing equals one smell. It's not that simple. And as you said before, the Australians have done a great amount of work over the years looking at these phenols that are found in smoke. But if you take a wine that's not smoke tainted, and you add high concentrations of those phenols to the wine, it doesn't taste like smoke taint, which means those are not the compounds that are causing that ashy taste to smoke tainted wines. So we've been doing quite a lot of work. And it actually came about in a roundabout way from how we originally thought. So many people were asking us about, they needed a training standard to understand what smoke taint was. So they're properly evaluating their wine. So we finally managed to come up with a smoke taint training standard for people that that is exactly what happens, the sensory, ashy after taste of smoke tainted wine, and we said, hey, that's really representative of smoke taint. Let's go analyze that. So we analyze that with Tom Collins an assistant professor at Washington State University. And we found this new class of compounds. And then we analyzed a bunch of wine that had been exposed to smoke, as well as wine that hadn't been and saw hey, these thiolphenols. So similar to the phenolic, the Australians found but there's sulfur groups on it. So it makes them very potent compounds. So thiolphenols that were found at higher levels in smoke tainted wine, and in some subsequent sensory, we added thiolphenols to a non smoke tainted wine. And lo and behold, in sensory analysis, they were rated as being smoky and ashy, of smoke team for it.

Craig Macmillan 4:07

Wow, I'm assuming that this is a class of compounds that was already known to exist that just hadn't been associated.

Elizabeth Tomasino 4:13

You know, not really thiols, the overall thiol class of compounds is well known but thiolphenols we found one reference to it in a textbook in the 60s linked to burnt meat, it's not normally looked at and food a lot and so that I think that's one of the reasons number one, no one, no one had thought to look for them because when you think about thiols in wine, you think about Sauvignon Blanc and tropical fruit flavors. I think they individually smell like burnt hair and burnt meat and things like that. You don't normally think about that. And within the food industry, they don't measure them. So it really was really was sort of fortuitous that we had this standard that had high levels. And then we started realizing that like everything we know to cause problems in in smoke tainted wines. And all these things the wine industry was telling us really made a lot of sense with the chemistry of these new compounds.

Craig Macmillan 5:06

Let's talk a little bit more about what phenols are, very light and very volatile.

Elizabeth Tomasino 5:12

Yes, well, they're essentially the breakdown products of lignin. So lignin is the main structure of trees, lots of plants. And when you add heat and burn them, while there are many things that come out of them, phenols are one of those classes. So they're ring structures with an alcohol group off one of a benzene ring with an alcohol group as it is a basic phenol. And they're very much have the smell of sort of that old campfire. That's, that's the smell of them put together. But in thiolphenols instead of an alcohol group, it's a sulfur group. And that changes practically everything about the compounds.

Craig Macmillan 5:46

I've been talking to some other researchers. And we talked about the idea that some volatile phenols are found naturally at low levels in fruit potentially, but also possibly barrels, things like that. So certain phenols are not necessarily coming just from the outside, they may actually be a baseline level in fruit or wine starting out. Is that right?

Elizabeth Tomasino 6:08

Yes, I do want to say specifically to what we know to date, what we talked about free phenol. So phenol is not bound to anything else phenols that are aroma active so you can smell them. They are found in a lot of grapes at low levels, not enough that you'd really smell or taste it. When you toast oak barrels used in wine or oak based products. They're formed. Again, there's lignin in the oak, so they're formed that way. The one question that that is still a little up in the air is we don't think the bound phenol compounds exist freely in grapes, we do think that is really related to smoke exposure, though, of course, I know some people are doing research on it. So maybe they're gonna prove that wrong or, or correct in the future for it. But the free phenols low levels, definitely in grapes, different concentrations, depending on the grape variety. So it's not a one size fits all. And of course, you also have very different oak species in oak barrels. So there's some differences there. So so that's what has made a lot of this challenging is that you do have some of these naturally in grapes and wine. And then in the past, we've been looking at really elevated concentrations of those phenols. And what's exciting with the thiophenols. And again, we're so early in the research is we're pretty certain they don't exist, unless there's a smoke exposure effect these these thiophenol specifically, you know, we've got some work we're going to be looking on. But we do think they might be really good marker compounds because they're not, they're definitely not found in oak barrels.

Craig Macmillan 7:36

That's, that's really awesome. That's really fantastic. That really opens up a new world. This is I hadn't thought of this question till just now what is our ability to test for these, this does exist commercially.

Elizabeth Tomasino 7:47

Unfortunately, they are just as complicated if not more, as some of the phenols. So the issue with these compounds is so if we think about concentrations and decreasing concentrations, phenols that we've looked at in the past run at microgram two milligram concentrations, then you go down by a factor and you get nanograms per liter. And it looks like these style phenols are at picograms per liter, I have never actually worked with picograms per liter. So there's and they're very sticky compounds. So they react. So you first have to to measure them accurately, at least you first have to sort of, we call it a derivatization. So you add something to it to make it way more stable, less volatile, and then you have to concentrate them. So the sample prep is actually quite extensive. And I know we are working with some people to see if there are ways to speed it up or make it not quite as time consuming, but unfortunately they are they are kind of a pain to measure.

Craig Macmillan 8:47

So it sounds like sensory analysis is really our only tool at this point.

Elizabeth Tomasino 8:52

We do have some chemical analysis. So we're actually adapting a method that we've done for those more tropical fruit styles for it. But we still recommend because it will take some time to know the accuracy of the methods and other things like that we still do highly recommend doing microferments with sensory for it and particularly for this season potentially next season we might have some more testing available but as I just said there they are difficult to measure.

Craig Macmillan 9:19

Are there specific descriptors related to and what are the compounds for the volatile phenols we were looking at before and specific descriptors for the thiophenols it'll help people kind of identify.

Elizabeth Tomasino 9:31

Of my knowledge so the phenols we currently looked at guaiacol, o-Cresol, p-Cresol, it's actually very reminiscent of a bit more of a chemical even a little bit of a bandaid aromas to them when you put them together. Thiophenols the ones that we've determined at the moment we do know there are others but but we have to confirm which ones they are thoiphenol, thioguaiacol, the thio-Cresols, burnt shows up in every single one of their descriptors, burn hair, burnt pork, burnt rubber. It's that very strong burnt aspect of it.

Craig Macmillan 10:09

Which is maybe a little bit different than smoky campfire.

Elizabeth Tomasino 10:13

We found in sensory that when you put the phenols together with the thiophenols, that is smoke taint. So the combination of the two classes is really smoke taint. But as I mentioned before, we currently don't think the tihophenols are found in grapes, and they're certainly not an oak. So they might be they might be much better predictors in the future. There'll be a lot of work over the next year. But that's the current hypothesis, at least.

Craig Macmillan 10:38

Does different types of fuel impact, what kinds of compounds are going to be released in the air?

Elizabeth Tomasino 10:43

So yes, they will. A lot of research, we look at barley, and haze and things like that, because it's really lignin. And of course, all plants have lignin. So that's something across it. But different trees will also have other compounds. So for example, I know up and WSU, they burn sagebrush a lot, that the smell of it is not just smoke, there's other aspects to it. I know this year, we've collected some forest floor things in Oregon to see how Oregon compares to what we use in research, which is really primarily just lignin for it. A lot of the smoke taint work is really what would be found across all smoke for it. And then we're starting to look at the differences between the fuel so you know, what's an all smoke lignin based products or an all smoke, and then you'll start to get some of those very different, you know, fuels. And I'm not even going into burning buildings, that's a totally different thing. I'm just talking about plant material.

Craig Macmillan 11:42

Well, the whole other area when the town burns down, no, we have to worry about that. But we did in you know, in Napa and Sonoma, we've had massive burns as well. That's part of the whole picture. This just reminded me of something else. So you're talking about, you know, trying this and trying then when are folks experimentally exposing grapes to smoke?

Elizabeth Tomasino 12:00

Yes, I call it when we talk about things because of course I'm in I'm in charge of a large USDA grant, we have protocols for if we have what I call a natural smoke event, which thankfully, this year, fingers crossed has not been too bad. And then we also have our research smokes, because of course research still needs to happen even if there isn't a forest fire. So we actually build very big tents and cages and things enclosed grapevines and smoke them out.

Craig Macmillan 12:27

Well, you're making a grape smoker.

Elizabeth Tomasino 12:29

Essentially, yes.

Craig Macmillan 12:30

Do a brisket.

Elizabeth Tomasino 12:31

Uh huh.

Craig Macmillan 12:33

That's incredible that that must be quite a quite a project.

Elizabeth Tomasino 12:36

It takes quite a few students to get it set up and running each year. So.

Craig Macmillan 12:41

Has this discovery indicated any new directions, or any possibilities or any thoughts and creativity around mitigation strategies?

Elizabeth Tomasino 12:52

I think it's going to change the game for mitigation. So there's been a lot of work in mitigation without having been hugely successful. And phenols as I said before, the chemistry and the reactivity of phenols is hugely different from thiophenols, we've essentially been using mitigation strategies for the wrong compounds and sulfur compounds are highly reactive. So and we know a lot about them. So reductive aromas and wine are sulfur based compounds, we actually think it's going to speed up some mitigation. And we're going to have some some more things, winemakers can actually do that are going to be more successful, because now it's really, really there. There isn't a lot you can do for it. But again, we've been looking at the wrong type of techniques based on the chemistry of the compounds.

Craig Macmillan 13:43

So since we're looking at different types of thiols, are we talking about the same kinds of strategies at the wine level that a winemaker might use if they are had dealing with hydrogen sulfide, or captains or something like that.

Elizabeth Tomasino 13:57

So thios are a type of mercaptains and another name for thiols. And if you really go into your oxidation reduction chemistry, one of the things that we're going to be investigating strongly is thios are one form, they're sort of reduced form of this compound, really low perception threshold. So a little bit smells very strongly. If you change the form of that into the disulfide. That's not as strong, it doesn't have a big of a sensory impact. So when a lot of people are talking to us about these things that they've noticed in their wine, and we sort of scratched our head, we're going back and thinking about it now going, oh, this is oxidation reduction chemistry, like redox. It's making some sense if you think about it from a redox potential standpoint. So it is looking and into those aspects specifically, and there are things people do for oxidation and reduction. I was just talking to someone you know, someone said, Oh, add copper sulfate. And I'm like they used to do that but but it's cyclical in wine. So you have to remove the copper sulfate that's bound with the sulfur and there are some techniques out there that you can do that with it.

Craig Macmillan 15:03

Are there things just in general that growers should or should not do if they see that there is a smoke event headed their way to reduce smoke impacts on grapes?

Elizabeth Tomasino 15:15

Well, first off, they should be safe for what's happening where they are with with what's going on. For it, I think it's something to not panic. A lot of people I know, in 2020, we didn't know as much. A lot of people said we had an event, I'm not going to do anything with these grapes, just because it's so different based on the variety. And we are starting to have an understanding of which smoke is problematic. Just because you were near a fire doesn't mean you're going to have a problem. Just because you're far away from that fire doesn't mean you're not going to have a problem. So do go out, pick some grapes, do some small scale ferments, taste those, smell them, don't panic, again, do those microferments maybe get get a sample or two analyzed and then make a decision what you're going to do. I do not recommend making a decision, just hey, we had smoke in the vineyard, we shouldn't do anything. It's not that easy for it. So we do recommend, they don't have to pick all their grapes, but go out and pick some of the grapes, do a little ferment and then figure out if you want to pick your grapes or not

Craig Macmillan 16:17

Don't freak out.

Elizabeth Tomasino 16:18

Yeah. And it's hard because of course, it's a very, very sort of upsetting situation, but but I've seen samples where a fire was a mile or two away. And just based on the variety in the winemaking, they did they were fine. And one variety, versus another variety that it was awful for. And I know a lot of people picked grapes that weren't shouldn't have been picked in 2020. And I know people didn't pick grapes that should have been picked for it. And I think it's because we just panic for it. And I know it's hard to do that. But take a deep breath, get a couple of grapes samples, Do, I think UC Davis has some of the small scale ferment procedures up there and how to do the sensory. Taste your wines. Make sure you have several different people tasting with you because people have different sensitivities to smoke taint. And then sit down and make a decision about what you want to do.

Craig Macmillan 17:07

Another concern is the development of aromas over time. So initially, something might smell clean or fairly clean. But then over time, something starts to express itself. Is that accurate? Or is that something we're kind of like making up or afraid that will happen?

Elizabeth Tomasino 17:27

Actually, I think that is accurate to some point, there will be a point where the smoke taint won't necessarily change a lot anymore. And as I said before, an understanding of these new compounds are greatly going to change, you know, understanding the conditions. So for example, if your wine smells fine, you put it in bottle, and it develops over time. But you created a very reductive environment. So maybe your disulfide form change to the thio form. And then that's happening there. So yes, it will potentially still happen. But as we're learning new things about it and new treatments, we're gonna have a much better understanding of what to look at before you bottle it to see if you're going to have a problem later on.

Craig Macmillan 18:06

Again, coming back to mitigation or prevention, can I spray something on to the fruit that will prevent these aromatic compounds from getting into the flesh?

Elizabeth Tomasino 18:19

That's what we'd love to have first step right first step, well, first step don't have forest fires that is a little bit outside of my control. Second step, can we stop the compounds going into the grapes? There's a lot of people looking at a lot of different coatings and sprays and things. And unfortunately, that research takes multiple years because of course, the climate is slightly different each year. So I know a lot of people are working on it, I think we're going to have some options to not maybe stop it from going into the grapes are greatly reducing what goes into the grapes for it. And hopefully in the next next year or two. We're going to have some some better options and some information as that as a potential preventative step.

Craig Macmillan 18:58

If I spray something in the grapes are still wet, is that going to make it easier for for volatile compounds to get in? Or is that alone going to help?

Elizabeth Tomasino 19:07

So a lot of sprays fungicides, things like that, that are used have oils, lipids to them, it's what makes them stick to the grapes, what makes them effective, and phenols can dissolve into those and be transferred into the grapes. So I know in Australia and Anita Oberholster at UC Davis has done some work, looking at if any sprays can prevent them from going in or make things work. And I want to say the vast majority of them actually increase the smoke compounds in grapes. So they're not as effective. A lot of the work is being done on non traditional sprays or things you wouldn't think about. I work with Dr. Yanyun Zhao at Oregon State University. She's known for edible coatings for post harvest effects. And we're looking at developing some of these coatings to to block or trap the compounds from getting into the grapes for it. And I know Tom Collins is looking t some stuff, as is Anita as well, but they're very non traditional coatings, because of course, you don't want those oils and lipids and things, goods.

Craig Macmillan 20:09

Good to know. What about the timing of harvest? If I again, if I have an idea that there's a smoke event coming my way, in theory, I could go ahead and pick that fruit ahead of time and get it out of there. Where are my questions kind of coming from is that the if I understand correctly, the the particulates of smoke and the volatiles phenols or thio, phenols and smoke, they're totally different things. It just happens that the volatile compounds travel with the with the particulate do the is there a possibility that the phenols, the volatile phenols and the thiophenols travel ahead of the particulate and the reason I ask is do I need to worry about something before I see it?

Elizabeth Tomasino 20:47

So first off to my knowledge, thiophenols don't occur in smoke .Phenols occur in smoke. Phenols get absorbed into the grape, and then you have a lot of metabolic processes that occur, that that creates thiophenols for it. So we're still in least, at the moment, we're still looking at phenols from smoke specifically for it.

Craig Macmillan 21:08

Interesting, interesting. So the thiophenol was actually formed later?

Elizabeth Tomasino 21:12

We think and again, totally theoretical at this point in time, we think that the phenol levels get so high in the grapes, that it's almost like a detoxifying event, and it starts going through other metabolic pathways, one being the ones that create these thiophenols. And unfortunately, they're also bound to other compounds. So you still don't taste them in the grapes. Because they're bound, they don't have an aroma. And it is during fermentation that it releases that just like the traditional theory of phenols and phenol glycosides in in grapes for it. I work with a range of climate scientists for it. And they literally say if you can go outside and smell it, then you've got the compounds there, the vast majority of the time, you will be seeing smoke, so you don't have to worry about oh, what's going to come in there. And I'm not going to I'm not going to know, these compounds are also very reactive in air. So you can see smoke, but not smell them. Because it's not as simple as saying time or distance. But for instance, I think guaiacol within a number of six to 12 hours, it reacts with ozone and other things in air. So you don't have guaiacol anymore. If you have a very windy day. Of course that could mean that traveled very far versus a not windy day. It's not as easy as saying if your x miles out you're fine. Totally depends on the day. But but actually you you would it would be very rare. I can't think of one instance where you'd actually not see smoke and have those particles normally it's you'll see smoke and is the question. If you go there, is it really smelly or not?

Craig Macmillan 22:44

I interviewed a Anita Oberholster to the other day, and she was talking about the concept of the freshness of smoke having a potential impact. Does that idea come into your work at all?

Elizabeth Tomasino 22:56

Yes, it really comes into how much phenols. So the closer you are to the burn site, the less chance those compounds have had to react yet, so you're gonna have higher concentrations of phenols. So again, if you have a burn right next to your field and the wind is blowing into your field, you're gonna have a lot of those smoke compounds versus you know, there were there were smoke from Northern California went into Southern Oregon a little higher, they didn't have as much smoke compounds in their grapes, because of course, it was very far away from the actual burn ignition site. Now, that doesn't, to say that some of these huge fires, you're not going to get impacts far away. What I'm learning about fires and how they move in different layers of the atmosphere is if it's big enough, and if the air currents are going strong enough, far away can have a problem. But generally, the closer you are to the actual burn site, the higher those smoke compounds are. And that's where we talk about fresh or new smoke versus old smoke.

Craig Macmillan 23:54

Fascinating. Yeah, cause some cases we've had the cloud, the plume travel quite a long ways. And then the question is, well, how, you know, how much danger are we in in 2020 I saw we really did have differentials, some varieties picked up a little bit others were fine. And we just are like, well, that's just how it is. We couldn't really predict what was going to be what. So again, getting back to your point, just hang in there. Don't freak out. Try it out, see what's happening. Because at this point, we really can't kind of predict. What is one thing you'd recommend to our listeners around this topic protect particularly grape growers, but also winemakers?

Elizabeth Tomasino 24:33

I think grape growers and winemakers, there's a lot of information out there. Each of the states are grape growing wine growing associations have a lot of up to date resources for it. Talk to your extension people. We always have a lot of people who said hey, I did this. You know here I heard about this and it's not based in science. No one has tested it. There's been a lot of work out there. We're trying to make sure you don't waste your time on something that doesn't work. So please go to those places first before you try it. And as I said before, take a deep breath, go out and do some microferments, taste your wines, maybe get some analysis done, then sit down and make a decision. Again, I know it's a very stressful thing that happens. But we do feel very strongly that sort of people panic in the moment, and it's like, okay, you know, sit down, we know enough about things that your grapes could be okay, let's see if they are.

Craig Macmillan 25:29

That is a really good message. Where can people find out more about you and your work?

Elizabeth Tomasino 25:33

So Oregon State University and the Oregon Wine Research Institute does have a smoke grape smoke exposure page, the grant that I am project manager for, we will soon be working on having a website up through Oregon State University. For that we're trying to get set for this season. So that that got to the wayside at the moment for it. There are of course, extension articles and things out there, you can sometimes just type in my name with wine and smoke and see what pops up.

Craig Macmillan 26:02

Thank you so much. We'll let you get back to your conference. I am so grateful that you were able to take time out to talk to us today. It's a really important topic. And one, it's it's breaking news. We're hearing new things all the time, which is really exciting. I think that the the way that the science community has jumped on this is really laudable and really important for the industry all over all over the United States actually, and the world, quite frankly. So thank you for your work. Thanks for talking to us. Keep keep going. I hope that you have a lot of success, a huge team that's working on this and I think that that's gonna lead us down the road faster than if we didn't. So I really appreciate what you folks are doing. Our guest today has been Dr. Elizabeth Tomasino. She is associate professor in the Food Science and Technology Department at Oregon State University. Thanks again, Elizabeth. This has been great.

Elizabeth Tomasino 26:51

Thank you very much for having me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Your brand's website is an excellent hub for consumers to find your brand's core information, such as your address, hours of operation, menu, shop, history, and awards. But what can you to do connect with your loyal supporters in their daily lives? Regularly post on social media, of course!

There are various social media platforms and each is suitable for different types of content. To wrap up our Marketing Tips social media series, let's talk about a few different social media channels and how you can tailor your content to align with what users are looking for.

Facebook According to Statista 2022, in January of this year, this social media platform ranked #1 as the most popular based on monthly users - and understandably so! Facebook is known for fostering connections (and reconnections) with people and communities. Here are two features your wine brand can use to satisfy users' quest for connection:

Events The Events feature of Facebook offers users an easy way to find out what's happening in their community, or plan an itinerary for their next vacation. Your brand is truly missing out if you're not utilizing this feature for your events. In addition to providing important details, a Facebook Event page has a couple of features that hone in on our social nature: potential attendees can check out who else might be there by looking at the "Attending" list, and can use the "Go With Friends" feature to easily organize a posse of friends and family.

Bonus tips: tag your food and music/entertainment services, and post photos of the venue. These details will help individuals to paint a more complete picture of what to expect - it allows them to more easily place themselves in the scene.

Groups Who else feels overwhelmed with their personal email inbox? The neverending stream of emails can incline many of us to quickly "trash" our way through our personal email inbox just to relieve the pressure. This means there's a chance your wine club emails aren't even being opened! Now, how often do you find yourself scrolling through Facebook to pass the time? While email newsletters certainly are useful for sending informative and promotional messages to your wine club, a Facebook Group made specifically for your dedicated members might yield more views. In addition to the latest wine club news, a Group also provides members a sense of community through the opportunity to post content of their own to the group page and interact with others who belong to the group.

Instagram Statista 2022 places Instagram as the #4 most popular social media platform. Many users seek content on Instagram to explore their hobbies and interests. Successful Instagram content has high visual appeal and meets our desires for either entertainment, information, or socialization (in case you missed it, check out these 5 social media marketing tips every wine brand needs to know). Here are five content ideas for your next Instagram post:

Share a behind-the-scenes look into what's going on at your site to help followers feel connected to your brand on a level that goes deeper than the grocery store shelf.
Use carousel posts to showcase before-and-afters, step-by-step processes, panoramic scenery, and "photo dumps" from recent events.
Post a teaser for upcoming events or new product releases to give your followers something to keep their eye out for.
Share and repost the content you're tagged in to build connections with your supporters.
Don't be afraid to toot your own horn by posting testimonials and reviews from satisfied customers. These offer invaluable social proof and can be stockpiled to provide content during times when you just don't know what to post.

Bonus tip: you only get one link on your Instagram bio, but you can use a Link in Bio tool to offer easy access to multiple web pages! Use your post caption to guide followers to visit your Link in Bio to your website's shop, a blog post, an event page, or a contest page.

YouTube According to Hootsuite Global State of Digital 2022, YouTube ranked #2 as the most-visited website for all of 2021. If you have the time to create longer videos, your brand could benefit from sharing more in-depth content with your audience.

The entire 300-page report of all things digital can be viewed by visiting the link above, but we'll just talk video content here (page 54 of the report). Of the 10 top-ranking content types, ones that you can easily create from the position of a wine brand include:

* Percentages indicate the weekly social media content type of internet users aged 16 to 64.

Tutorial or How-To video (31.3%)
Educational (29.8%)
Product review (27.7%)
Influencer videos and Vlogs (26.7%)

Bonus tip: utilize the other platforms to boost your YouTube views. Post clips or stills from your videos on your other platforms and include a link to the full video on YouTube in the caption.

Tag us, and use the SIP Certified GIPHYs! If you are SIP Certified, we love seeing and sharing your content! Tag us @SIPCertified in your upcoming Instagram and Facebook posts.

References: * 5 Social Media Marketing Tips Every Wine Brand Needs to Know * Are you using the right message on social media? * Connecting with a Broader Audience * Does social media impact wine sales? * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified * Social Media Tips

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“When smoke impact in the vineyard is great enough to impact the fruit and causes inferior wine, then we start calling it smoke taint.” explains Anita Oberholster, Professor Cooperative Extension Enology in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at the University of California, Davis.

During a wildfire event, the lignin in vegetation is broken down, releasing volatile phenols. While there are naturally occurring phenols in grapes, this release causes an excess which can impact the final product. Some tainted wines smell like camp fire, smoky, BBQ, and even bacon. New research shows there is an aftertaste, an aroma you perceive in the back of your throat, that creates that ash tray character.

Fruity aromas natural to some varieties can mask smoky aromas quite well. While green aromas like green pepper bring out the undesirable smoky traits. Some varieties may stand up to smoke taint better than others but there has not been a definitive research project on this yet due to the complexity of the testing process.

Barrier spray research is still in its infancy. Early testing shows that barrier sprays need to be used preventatively. One trial showed a slight impact that could make a positive difference in a light smoke taint situation. The additional challenge with sprays is that they need to be washed off which uses a lot of water.

Listen in for Anita’s number one tip for growers.

References: * Anita Oberholster, UC Davis Viticulture and Enology Webpage * Key Information on Smoke Effect in Grapes and Wine:
What can be done to identify and reduce smoke effect in grape and wine production? (Western Australia Agriculture Authority) * Grower-Winery Contracts and Communications about
Smoke Exposure to Oregon’s 2020 Wine Grape Harvest * SIP Certified * Step-by-Step: How to do small scale fermentations * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 | Use code PODCAST for $50 off * The Australian Research Institute Smoke Taint Resources

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And with me today is Dr. Anita Oberholster . She is Professor of Cooperative Extension, enology in the department of Viticulture and Enology, UC Davis. And today we're gonna talk about smoke taint. Welcome to the show.

Anita Oberholster 0:11

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:13

This is a problem that has gotten a lot of attention in the last few years in California, I think a lot of us was surprised to find out it's been a topic of conversation in Australia for much longer than that. And yet, we still have a lot of questions. And we still don't have a lot of answers. But we're making progress. We're learning more about this. So first off, can you define what smoke taint is?

Anita Oberholster 0:35

Sure. So the first thing I would want to say is that, you know, when a vineyard is exposed to smoke, we talk about smoke impact, this potential smoke impact. Smoke taint is actually a sensory term. So that is when you have something that causes a decrease in quality or fault in the wine, then we start calling it taint. So when smoke impact in the vineyard is great enough that it impacts the fruit in such a way that it makes wine that is inferior and has a fault, then it is smoke taint. So smoke impact in grapes causes potentially smoked taint in wine. That clear?

Craig Macmillan 1:16

Absolutely. So there would be smoke impact then, as a standalone, what would be smoke impact?

Anita Oberholster 1:21

Okay, so smoke impact would be that there was fresh enough smoke that the grapevines were exposed to that the grapes absorb some of the volatile phenols coming from the smoke, so that it's more than normal. So smoke impact would be there were some absorption that took place. So grape composition is not totally what it was before smoke exposure, that would be smoke impact.

Craig Macmillan 1:47

And then smoke taint is what happens when you turn it into wine. The aromas that you get from that?

Anita Oberholster 1:51

Yes, and if the smoke impact was enough, because if you only have a little bit of absorption, that may still be a result in a wine that has no problems, right. So the smoke impact has to be at a certain significant level before we see a problem in the wines. So it's very important to know just a little bit of absorption do not always equal a problem in the winery.

Craig Macmillan 2:16

What kinds of aromas in terms of like descriptors and also then what kind of compounds, their aromas are compounds, what kind of compounds are we talking about?

Anita Oberholster 2:27

Okay, so I'm gonna get a little bit scientific.

Craig Macmillan 2:29

Do it please.

Anita Oberholster 2:30

So if you think of smoke, right, if we think a wildfire smoke, you have a lot of vegetation burning . So 15 to 25% of wood is lignin now lignin is what give celery its crunch, okay, so it's what it's the fiber you food. It's what gives wood its structure, its hardiness. When lignin burns, it actually release a lot of compounds. When it breaks down, we call thermal degradation. It releases a lot of compounds that we call volatile phenols. It's a whole range of compounds. And these compounds are naturally present in grapes. So that is something to remember, naturally, in different grape varieties in different regions would have natural, a certain amount. Now you have an excess amount in the air that can absorb onto those grapes because grapes are little little sponges, that absorbs the extra volatile phenols. Now if you have an excessive amount of volatile phenols, then it can result in wines with off flavors. Now what we talk about here is on the nose, you can get very campfire, smoky, BBQ, bacon, medicinal and the list goes on, aromas, but what for me is very distinctive, I call smoke taint, we call it a ritrum nasal character, or people talk about an aftertaste, it's actually an aroma you perceive in the back of your throat because what happens when these volatile phenols absorbed onto grapes, part of their defense mechanism is they attach sugars to it so as soon as you add sugars to it, this moment of fear now there was a really small compounds that's volatile and you can smell becomes non volatile because it is now larger in weight. But when you make wines both the free and without, so both of those with sugars on and those who have no sugars on, gets released into the wine. That rates your changes within the enzamatic activity, the pH of wine. And when you taste a wine, you have enzymes in your saliva that can actually release that bound. And we think it's that action that gives you that ashy character in the back of your throat. So it's a ritual nasal character because the back of your nose is connected to your throat as we all know when you have a cold and basically that release makes you perceive it and it's like an ashtray character if you can imagine an old campfire in the morning but that smells like if you licked that what that would taste like or if you smoking you have the old ashes there. I mean, I used to as a kid, my dad used to smoke a pipe, put the old coal pipe in your mouth and suck on it, that kind of taste. So obviously, that's very awful. So that would not be something that will increase the quality of your wine. So that for me is smoke taint. I have to caution that if you smell like, you know, smoke or something in wine, and only that, that doesn't always mean smoke taint. And there's other things that can happen in the wine that could also give you those characters. And you know, even barrel aging, some barrels can give you smoky character. So I want to caution people not to smell smoke and go oh, this is what tainted. Really focus on is there that aftertaste character that ritrum nasal, ashy character that's really distinctive.

Craig Macmillan 5:48

Are there particular compounds that are kind of hallmarks that either are the most commonly found in wines that are identified as having ssmoke taint from a descriptor standpoint. Or ones that just tend to travel with those descriptors, even if they're not the compound itself? You know, what I'm talking about, like a proxy? What are those? And where did it come from?

Anita Oberholster 6:05

Yeah, so we do have, you know, and we can thank our Australian researchers for that, because they've been working on this for much longer. And they have found about seven key volatile phenols, I can list them guaiacol, 4-methylguaiacol, syringol, 4-methylsyringol, p-cresol, o-cresol and m-cresol. they have identified six individual bound compounds that also correlate with smoke. So they've actually isolated them looked at them showed that they correlate with smoky characters, and the distinctive smoke taint character in wine. However, research continues. Even analyzing all those compounds, does not give you 100% predictive power, it's only about 70%. So we do think that there are more compounds that we need to keep on looking for. And that's something we're actively researching, but also the matrix. So the matrix is everything but what you're talking about. So for wine, it would be everything but the volatile phenols. We know that how much phenolic or color, polysaccharides, proteins, alcohol, sugar is in that wine, all of that influence the perception of smoke. So that can also be why the predictive power isn't that great. It could be everything else, not just the mark compounds. For instance, we know like fruity aromas can mask the smokiness quite well. But green characters like you know, the green pepper character or grassy characters, they actually uplift, smokiness, that's from research coming from South Africa. Very complex, everything in the wine influences something else.

Craig Macmillan 7:41

You know, that actually just remind me of another another question. Do we know? Are there certain varieties that seem to be much more prone to either suffering from smoke impact or if they do suffer from smoke impact, having being identified as having smoke taint later on down the line?

Anita Oberholster 7:57

Yes, you know, it's it's difficult. We really need more data. We we know, a variety like Pinot Noir, for instance, seems to be pretty prone to showing smoke. But is that because they absorb more? Is it something to do with the skin structure? Or is it just because they many times make wines where most simpler matrix is then, for instance, a full bodied Cabernet Sauvignon? And it's really difficult to know, we know that, for instance, Syrah naturally have very high levels of volatile phenols and can handle additional volatile phenols come from smoke quite well. That doesn't mean you can't get smoke impacted Syrahs. I've seen them. But so Syrah seems to be more robust. It seems to ask you know, Pinot Noir definitely more sensitive, say then Cabernet Sauvignon. Cabernet, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Petit Verdot. I think the Petite Verdot perhaps a little bit more sensitive to the Cabernet Sauvignon but this is more based on anecdotal experience, rather than having enough research data to really piece it out. For us to really determine this, we would have to intentionally smoke different varieties so that they actually at the same ripeness point gets exposed to exactly the same volatile phenol compositions and smoke composition, and then evaluate them. As you can imagine, that's not easy to do.

Craig Macmillan 9:20

No, it's not. Maybe I'm misremembering this, but I think I read an article where researchers were tenting rows of vines, and then building fires at one end and then blowing the smoke into the tent. And I was like, that's genius. But then in the, in the conclusions, right, the discussion, limitation, it's like, yes, but did we use the right wood? Is the intensity right? Is this over top, you know, you know, all these other variables and you're like, oh, God, you know, holy crap, what are we going to do? You know. And a lot of it's going to end up being what work that you guys are doing, which is just real in the field research when things happen, you just go study it as best you can. Yeah, you know, so it's gonna be a long time for us to figure a lot of these things out.

Anita Oberholster 10:03

Yeah, we do a combination of it. But it's not easy. We've done some intentional smoking last year. And you know, we built a tank, it was like 36 feet by seven feet by 10 feet to cover for vines in our Vineyard. Just to test barior sprays, right. And then to figure out what to burn, we had some natural ash that we analyze. So Tom Collins in Washington State University, he used to burn natural vegetation and gave up because to keep it consistently the same, to know that everything was exposed to exactly the same smoke. It's difficult. So we've moved to like using pellets, but then not all pellets give up the same depending on what what they're made of, and usually hard work. And what we usually burns here in California is soft wood. So yeah, it's tricky. We had to play around with a lot of different fires to figure out which source material we should be using for for our intentional smoking. And we will keep investigating, we're trying to mimic the real situation as much as possible, but it's not perfect.

Craig Macmillan 11:06

What is the window, or the progression of the windows for smoke impact on grapes when they're most vulnerable?

Anita Oberholster 11:13

Yeah, you know, unfortunately, I have to tell you, basically, from the moment you have a berry,. There was this research in Australia on Merlot vines where they actually intentionally spoke, expost ir to smoke over three seasons at different growth stages. And they did find in that study, the most sensitive was from verasion on onwards. So from sugar accumulation onwards, right, our color change onwards. However, we've had many instances of now our vineyards that were only exposed to smoke before veraion. At pea size even and still ended up making smoke impacted wines. So I want to caution I would say the risk gets higher from verasion onwards. But unfortunately, you're not safe if your smoke exposure was earlier.

Craig Macmillan 12:04

So it's an issue no matter what, basically.

Anita Oberholster 12:07

Yes, unfortunately.

Craig Macmillan 12:08

That's unfortunately, but also, that's good to know, that's really, really good to know, because I think we're thinking, oh, you know, it's a tiny berry and its all waxy and you know, it's not going to be an issue. And then, you know, four months later, three months later, suddenly, it's a problem.

Anita Oberholster 12:20

I also heard this rumor of my grapes are fine, because they were overripe with smoke exposure. Now, unfortunately, that does not work either. It will absorb smoke, even if it's very ripe. The enzyme activity within the berry do decrease somewhat. So there might be a difference in how much they actually attach sugars to it, or, like these volatile phenols. But they're still sensitive, you still have a risk, there's unfortunately no period that you don't have a risk if you have a berry on the vine.

Craig Macmillan 12:50

Got it. Oh, related. This reminds me of something. So the volatile phenols that we're talking about. These are compounds that are out in the air. They're part of smoking in quotes, but they're not ash. Ash is something's completely different, right?

Anita Oberholster 13:05

Yeah. So ash is carbon, mostly right? So what can happen and this is the confusing thing. When you have a fire ,volatile phenols are very small, you can't see them, right. So what you see is the debris or the particulate matter, volatile phenols on their own actually break down very quickly, they phyto oxidize in the air within hours. But now they can absorb on to particulate matter. So they can absorb onto the ash. And when they absorb onto the ash, we do not know how that impacts their degradation. So there's where the issue comes. So and this is why we say only when smoke is fresh, is there any kind of relation between particulate matter and risk of smoke exposure. The older that ash gets, the older that smoke gets, the less it contains volatile phenol, phenols. And the lower your risk of smoke impact, if that makes sense.

Craig Macmillan 14:02

I was just going to ask you about that. You've mentioned freshness in some of your other work. How fresh is fresh and how does it change over time? And is there any way I can sleep at night thinking that this has been out there for three days or whatever?

Anita Oberholster 14:14

Yeah, you know, it's difficult, So basically at the moment, fresh ash is defined as anything less than 24 hours old. Now that's based on anecdotal data. The Australians had a fire, all the smoke moved in a column over the ocean and came back as one big column over McLaren Vale. And it was more than 24 hours later, and McLaren Vale was fine, there was no impact. So that was all anecdotal, but my own observations really do confirm that. I'm not saying you have no risk if the smoke is older than 24 hours, but your risk definitely substantially decrease. The older that smoke gets. Because what happens the volatile phenols starts breaking down, even those absorbed onto particulate matter starts breaking down. So after you know two, three days eyes that smoke is particulate matter. It doesn't contain the compounds that can absorb onto the grapes and into the graves and cause a problem.

Craig Macmillan 15:10

We've talked about time, in fact about windkow. Let's pretend Craig's a grower, I was at once but I am not now. What can I do? What should I do? What should I not? Do I have any kind of agency in this process?

Anita Oberholster 15:21

I wish I could tell grapegrowers what to do. I have some cautionary tales. If I can put it that way. Please, please. So what I would say is currently, we do not recommend anything. We've looked at some berry sprays, things they can spray onto the berry to protect it against the volatile phenols in the air. We've tried kaolin or surround, you know, the claim. Yep, yep. And it has shown some efficacy. So if you want to spray that on, you can try it. But it's not a silver bullet. In laboratory conditions. This is now 100% coverage, I saw about a 30% decrease in the amount of volatile phenols absorbing from smoke. But now remember, in a vineyard setting, you're not going to get 100% coverage, you may get 30 to 40% coverage. But it's a fact where if you only have a little bit of smoke exposure, that every little bit of prevention could actually mean the difference so that you end up with grapes that's not impacted and make good wine. This is always going to be preventative. Growers might have heard of the study that you looked at Praka, and it showed really, really good efficacy. However, after that initial study, there's been two more studies that showed no efficacy, and some that actually showed it resulted in the absorption of more of volatile phenols. So I'm cautioning against using Praka. I've looked at EMP barrier, I've only done one study 100% coverage. So keep that in mind. And one of their compilations, jin3e showed something very similar to surround not better. But in a similar similar realm. Here's the problem with whatever you put on, you need to wash it off. At this stage, it seems the volatile phenols absorbs onto the barrier instead of absorbing onto the berry. However, if that barrier is still there, when you pick the grapes and make the wine, it dissolves from the barrier into your wine, so you're no better off, you still have to wash it off. And that's the problem because removing that clay from the berries, that's very difficult and will need a lot of water, which is my other problem with the solution. We are continually looking at other barrier sprays, if we can find something that potential you don't have to rinse off. Because that would obviously logistically and for many other reasons be a better option. There's something else I would like to say. Some of these studies looked at compounds I just mentioned, like Praka in some of the studies and actually made it worse. We are concerned a lot of applications use the stickers, many times it's oil to get the compact stick to the berry. If there's too much oil in whatever you are applying, it seems like it doesn't dry out. And if you have something wet on the outside of the barrier that increases the volume of the berry, or potentially is a liquid and the outside of which the volatile phenols can absorb and then absorb for concentrate in that liquid and then go into the berry. That may be why in some circumstances, some compounds are making it worse. Some berry sprays are making it worse. We saw people applying fungusicides and things like that that also made absorption worse. So currently, really if there's smoke in the air, and you do not have to apply something to your grapes, don't. We're really worried about applying anything while there's smoke in the air. If you want to apply something as a protection, the only things that showed some efficacy is basically surround or potentially some of these EMP various sprays you have to do it preventative, you need to do it before there's any smoke. So you're going to do this not knowing whether you actually need this protection or not. When the smoke is there, it's too late. Please do not apply anything to you grapes, your vines while there's smoke in the air. Wait until the smoke clears. If you do have to apply fungicides and other things. That's important. The other thing also there's been some studies looking at leaf removal or not leaf removal. Now the thing is the volatile phenols can also absorb onto leaves. And actually when you have a big canopy, that canopy can actually sort of protect your grapes because the volatile phenols is absorbing onto the leaves, not onto your grape bunches.

Craig Macmillan 19:40

We don't believe or we don't know at this point or we don't believe that those things aren't going to be transported from a mature lead back to the berries just like I'm transporting all these other precursors and amino acids and you know excetera?

Anita Oberholster 19:52

Yes, good question. So here's the thing. There's one study that looked at this and showed that translocation from the leaves to the grapevine bunches is possible. Now here's the problem, we think it's very limited, because we still see more advantage from having a canopy there than not having a canopy. So here's the thing. There's a study that looked at a big canopy that looked at leaf removal before smoke, and then looked at leaf removal after smoke. Now, having the big canopy resulted in grapes with the least impact from the smoke than those that had leaf removal before smoke, worst impact as you can think, because the berries were totally exposed. And then the leaf removal off the smoke did help with the smoke impact in the final wines. However, there's other studies that didn't see a great impact by doing leaf removal. And there's a risk with doing leaf removal. Because if you do leaf removal, and there's another fire, or more smoke than you might do just made it worse. And obviously we are in California, you actually sometimes need some shade for your berries. So we are concerned about sunburn and other things like that. So we're not, even in Australia, I've talked to them as well, they're not recommending leaf removal, we think that risk is too high in the benefit too low at this stage. We are I'm just started a study at Oakville experimental station where we can look at translocation between leaf and vines a little bit more and get a better and I should say leafs and grapes and get a better idea about the kinetics of this translocation. When does it happen? Does it only happen when you also have sugar translocation happening? We would no more than a couple of years.

Craig Macmillan 21:32

That's good. And I hope that everything continues apace. I'm very pleased to see how much research has been funded in this area. And also the collaboration. I think that the whole West Coast working together I think is a fantastic thing. And I hope that we can continue that model going forward. This isn't one of those problems where you know, we got a supply side grower, and then we have a consumer, the winery. And often we draw a line between those two. This is an issue that somehow we got to find a way of working together on this, we've got to find a way of finding some balance in terms of what the outcomes are going to be or what's going to happen. At this point qhat do you what do you think about that? What are what are things that you've come across that seemed like they made the community that if you will function or where things just clearly were problems that were going to be really, really bad? In kind of the more like logistical, social, economic realms?

Anita Oberholster 22:20

Yes, I guess communication is key, right. And I do feel that this is a heavy burden that should be carried equally by the grape grower and the winemaker, there's been a little bit of everything. You have the situations where some grape contracts were canceled with no rhyme or reason, it seems like. And then you have the situations where you have winemakers that talk to their grape growers. Made bucket fermentations with their grapes, brought them in, tasted together, looked at the data, had a discussion. And that's really optimal. So what I really would like to see is that before there's a smoke event, before harvest, right, in the offseason, there needs to be clear communication about how this process is going to work. You know, the grape grow needs to know, okay, what stands in my contract? Okay, what does that mean? When are we going to evaluate the grapes? Who's going to pay for the testing? Who needs to take the samples, take it to the lab? Do we do bucket fermentations? Who do the bucket fermentations? Who's going to taste these wines? And all of these things optimally should be about communication and a shared experience right effort between the grape grower and the winemaker, that's really the best situation. So for growers, I would say, talk to the winery and make sure that there are steps in place, don't assume they are there, make sure that they are actually in place and what they are, what's going to be your responsibility. How's that conversation going to go? If there is a smoke event, it's really important. But also for growers, you know, I'm recommending, I know that testing is really expensive. However, if you can, for crop insurance, you need a sample of each block of each variety, which is a lot. But even if you can just take a composite sample, you know, 300 berries in a bag. I mean 100 If you don't have a lot of grapes, in a bag, throw it in your freezer. Every couple of weeks from verasion. I would say our risk for smoke exposure really exponentially goes up from verasion onwards. So I would say from verasion, take a berry sample, throw it in your freezer. If don't need it, you don't need it. But if there's a smoke event, then you can go back to your pre smoke sample. You can have that analyzed with your harvest sample. And you can see what's the difference? Because the problem is we do not have public baseline. And we're at baseline I mean for the main varieties, what is normal for your area, what is the normal amount of volatile phenols. Because this is the problem we're all doing testing, and then say, now we're supposed to know what's elevated. How do you know what's elevated if you don't know what's normal. And then like I just said, you can get smoke impact without wine taint, right? How much elevation do you need before it actually results in a wine that's tainted, and that's what we're also trying to address. But we're only now this season will be our second year for baseline. Trying to determine baseline for the seven main varieties in California to at least as a reference when you get numbers back from the lab so that you can interpret it more easily. And we're also doing threshold studies in wine. That is, how much of these compounds can be in a specific wine matrix before it results in a decrease in quality. That's what we're trying to do. I call it the two bookends. If we have the two bookends, then contracts can be more specific, perhaps they can even have numbers in them. Now numbers is difficult because we just don't have enough data to know whether what is a good number to put in a contract. I mean, there's some numbers out there based on guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol. That's only two of the seven free vlatine phenols. That doesn't even take the bound into account. So this is something I do want to tell a grower and this is really important. Crop insurance is based on only guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol, only to marker compounds. Here's the problem, you may have smoke impacting your berries, and that guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol number is below quantification limits, right? So you think you're good, no problem. The issue is most of these free volatile phenols depending on when grapes are exposed to smoke can be in the bound form. So you don't see it. But now the winemaker takes those grapes, he makes wine during the winemaking process, up to 30% of that bound can be released to free. And now suddenly you have a problem because it made wine that impacted but according to crop insurance, your data did not show smoke impact. And this is why we're really telling people to do small scale fermentations. And I know don't ask a grower to do fermentation is not a small ask. So that would be great if your winery was prepared to do it. But it's not that difficult. I do have a video on my website. I cringe saying this. But it was done overnight. But there you go,

Craig Macmillan 27:31

There will be a link to that particular video, by the way, I think I thought it was great. I thought it was I thought was fantastic. It is a little intimidating, I have to admit, but it was really, really good and a lot of numbers and a lot of things. But but you got it, you got to do it, you got to do it. Right. I mean, there's no other sense.

Anita Oberholster 27:45

I think, you know, I tried to on the fly, in my brain, make it so that somebody in a kitchen can do it, using things that you may have at on hand right to make the wine. So the advantage here is crop insurance meeting us halfway. They said so long as you can show chain of custody, so long as I bucket fermentation actually represents that block for that specific variety, they will take that wine number so that one you can take that bucket fermentation and get that analyzed for guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol. That may still show safe and then why may still end up being smoke impacted six, nine months later that unfortunately do happen. However, your chances is much greater that it will show you impact if you had impact just because you had that 20 to 30% that can be released during the primary fermentation process. And this is why we recommend that. Now that you know the story gets convoluted because there's some people now saying but grape analysis and wine analysis gives you the same number. There's some researchers out there saying that. And it's true for how they looked at the grapes, the grape number and the wine number was the same. However, most labs will take the grapes, homogenize it spin down the juice and analyze the juice. That's not an extensible amount of skin contact you really to get the same amount that will end up in the wine, you need at least five days of contact.

Craig Macmillan 29:15

Okay, there is the key.

Anita Oberholster 29:16

And so that's why I'm saying just do not do a mini fermentation because you need that skin contact time. Researchers that say that grapes on wine they get the same number by analysis is because for their sample prepping the grapes, they did something like a five day course.

Craig Macmillan 29:31

But also because if you have an active fermentation, you are having some enzymatic activity that's going to break those glucosides and set those phenols the variable freeness free and that's what's happening in reality. So that's that's part of it.

Anita Oberholster 29:45

Good point. So this is what happening. Yes. So especially in the beginning, as soon as you crush your groups, there's enzymes within the cells of the groups and then gets released and they can release the sugars from the volatile phenols. Now during the winemaking process in the beginning until the alcohol formation gets too high, the alcohol do inhibit these enzymes, you get that release. And then after that, you also have the fact that wine has a low pH between three and four. And so you get some acid release as well, because they're acid liable, meaning that they do release the sugars over time. But that type of reuse is slow.

Craig Macmillan 30:24

That's a good question. Is there an unknown effect of pH on this? You know, you talk, you talked about a target pH that many winemakers would like to have. But I know that it was along the central coast, it's not unusual to be three, seven push and three, eight going from there. And in other spots, making white wines with three twos. Do we know what the what the effect is?

Anita Oberholster 30:42

Okay, so here's the thing, I'm not recommending acidifying your wines to a ridiculous low pH and then adjusting it to get to get more to release. The thing is, there is a pH effect, but it's not very strong. So in the range of wine, this is why after wine is made, these bound compounds are actually pretty stable over five, six years, you may get another 10 15% releasing, okay. So that they don't actually release a lot at the wine range pH. So in a short period of time, I don't think it's worth doing that kind of thing. Just to give you some context in the lab, if we're trying to hydrolyze basically to remove all the sugars from the volatile phenols. We adjust the pH with hydrochloric acid or sulfiric acid to pH one.

Craig Macmillan 31:33

Oh my god!

Anita Oberholster 31:34

Then we heat it at 100 degrees Celsius for one hour. And it still does not release that.

Craig Macmillan 31:43

Holy cow.

Anita Oberholster 31:44

So just want to say this is extreme conditions. Because you know, in 2020, somebody contacted me and asked that winemaker wants me to spray to tartaric acid on my grapes to break down the glycosides. Now, obviously, that is a lot of unnecessary labor, because it's gonna do nothing to those bound, volatile phenols.

Craig Macmillan 32:05

That's gonna be an uncontrollable situation, man.

Anita Oberholster 32:07

Yeah, so that kind of thing. You know, I have to say, I want to invite growers. If somebody asked you to do something weird, or something you think is really not needed, you're obviously free to contact me and I will share my knowledge which they may forward to the winemaker.

Craig Macmillan 32:24

Well, it's part of the communication.

Anita Oberholster 32:25

I actually have a cooperative extension specialist for the for the enology side for the wine side, I true believer, all wines, and all good wines are made in the vineyard. Yeah, I you know, I'm a farmer's daughter. So I get it. So I really do want to look out for both sides. Because where would a winery be without grapes?

Craig Macmillan 32:45

And where would a grape poor be without wineries?

Anita Oberholster 32:47

Exactly right. So it's a two way street. And we need to figure this out together. You know, it's a difficult situation. And unfortunately, we don't know that much more than 2020. But I think we know more about how to prepare ourselves. And sometimes not, you know, knowledge is power, even just knowing what we don't know, is power. And just being more informed is power, right? The more you understand about the problem, the smaller the chance that somebody can come and tell you something that's totally wrong, and get you to do something that actually makes matters worse, which wastes your time or waste your money and is not going to help.

Craig Macmillan 33:27

So we only got about another minute here left, we got to wrap up. What, is there one thing that you would recommend to a grape grower on this topic related to this topic?

Anita Oberholster 33:37

I would say please store berry samples. Buy a freezer, and store samples. There's so many people that's now in litigation, and they asked my help. And I can't help them because they don't have a grape sample. And even the sample you sent to the labs that were smoke impacted those samples. Keep reference samples of them too. You never know when you need to go back to them. It breaks my heart when I can't help them prove what they're trying to tell me because they just don't have the samples to analyze. It's really important and and please talk to your winery, make sure that you know what steps to take. Talk to your crop insurance know what steps to take to ensure that you're at least covered if you need it.

Craig Macmillan 34:25

Where can people find out more about you and your work?

Anita Oberholster 34:28

So you know, I'm on the viticulture enology, the Department of Viticulture and Enology website, just look under personnel. I'm there, my contact details are there. There's a link to my bio and some of the work that I do and you know, just send me an email. It's very important to say persistence is key. I do receive more than 100 emails per day. So it's sometimes difficult to get to everybody and sometimes I really miss important emails. That's a shame. So it's really good when people actually send a repeat.

Craig Macmillan 34:59

Okay, Hey, good advice. So our guest today has been Dr. Anita Oberholster Professor Cooperative Extension Enology in the department of Viticulture and Enology, UC Davis,. Thank you so much for being a guest. This is a hugely important topic and obviously isn't going away. And the science on this is developing. Golly, probably by the month. You know, as I watched the literature, there's new publications on this topic globally. Every issue of something so keep up the good work, keep us informed. We'd love to have you back in the future and we'll talk some more about what we learned.

Anita Oberholster 35:29

Absolutely. It was great talking to you

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Have you worked with a social media influencer? While the concept of working with influencers may sound intimidating to some, we can assure you that with clear goals and succinct calls to action, the process is super rewarding and for direct to consumer sales can be very lucrative.

As we've discussed in previous Marketing Tips, partnering with social media influencers is a great way to reach groups of people who may be unaware of your brand, and specifically, partnering with a "wine influencer" will ensure that your brand is being shared with consumers who are passionate about wine and wine culture.

In an effort to broaden brand awareness for SIP Certified, we engaged social media influencers in Q1 and Q2 of 2022. These campaigns were an incredible way to educate consumers about the benefits of purchasing SIP Certified wines and helped distill the messaging of sustainability down to digestible language via influencers.

Creating a budget, establishing goals, brand parameters, and tracking engagement are the key elements in an influencer campaign. Any reputable influencer will have a rate sheet complete with their prices for different types of posts as well as their average engagement rates and demographic reach. This is important for your brand as the reach should be successful and align with your existing or aspirational customer. Setting brand parameters is important so the influencer’s messaging is in line with your existing brand guidelines and feel.

Now, to really see how these partnerships have played out, I invite you to check out our show notes and use the link to our latest article called, Connecting with a Broader Audience.

Here you can see the recipes created by the equally talented and funny Jerry James Stone. This year, Jerry is pairing SIP Certified brands with fresh and simple eats that you are going to want to try for yourself. Check out Seared Polenta with Slow Roasted Tomatoes and Pesto & Ron Rubin's 2019 Russian River Valley Pinot Noir and Blackberry Balsamic & Basil Grilled Cheese & Rava's 2018 Grenache Rosé.

This year we just had to work with Isis Daniel, aka the Millennial Somm again. A certified Level 3 with Merit Wine and Spirit Education Trust wine consultant and wine content creator, she produces educational and entertaining wine content across her social media channels. In her fun and casual #TastingThursday Instagram live show, she sits and sips with wine-growers and -makers through a friendly interview, giving her audience insight into the personalities and passions of the people behind the wines. Grab a glass of McIntyre's 2018 Pinot Noir and sit back and enjoy our #TastingThursday with Kristen McIntyre of McIntyre Wines!

A lifelong love for travel, a degree in Visual Arts and Art History, and a whimsical purchase of a bottle of Bordeaux were the perfect ingredients to inspire Christy to begin her exploration of California's diverse wine-growing regions. Thus, Christy on the Vine was born. Her wine blog is dedicated to documenting her experiences with the wines and wineries she encounters on her journeys.

Join Christy on the Vine as she enjoys SIP Certified Sustainable Wines from the Santa Lucia Highlands in the sand in Monterey Bay. Featured on this blog and Instagram post are the 2019 SLH Chardonnay from McIntyre Family Wines and the 2019 Lucia Pinot Noir from Pisoni Family Vineyards.

Dedicated to making wine, food, and travel more fun, Mike Cano leverages his multilingual, communications, and digital marketing skills to invite consumers of all demographics to explore various wines and wine regions. Through his wine blog, LatinxWine, he shares informative brand backstory and wine tasting notes of the wines he enjoys.

His sunny, poolside Instagram post documents his experience of two SIP Certified wines: Center of Effort's 2017 Edna Valley Chardonnay, and Cambria Estate Winery's 2020 Julia's Vineyard Pinot Noir.

Tag us, and use the SIP Certified GIPHYs! If you are SIP Certified, we love seeing and sharing your content! Tag us @SIPCertified in your upcoming Instagram and Facebook posts.

References: * Connecting with a Broader Audience * Does social media impact wine sales? * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified * Social Media Tips

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Did you know that the Farm Service Agency offers financial assistance to remove and replant vines infected with Red Blotch? Jeff Sledd, County Executive Director at the San Luis Obispo County Farm Service Agency explains how the Tree Assistance Program (TAP) offers commercial farmers aid with multiple qualifying disasters including natural occurrences like freezing or floods, and diseases including Pierces Disease and Red Blotch.

The Farm Service Agency is a national program with county-level agencies for assistance. It is important for farmers to connect with their local agency to remain aware of current relief programs and to request funding for new issues.

Make sure to listen to the end. If you received an insurance payment in 2020, 2021, or 2022 for COVID or drought, you may be eligible for the Emergency Relief Program.

References: * 122: Preserving Agriculture Land to Combat Climate Change * California State Office of the FSA * Farmers.gov * Jeffrey Sledd * Tree Assistance Program * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And with me today is Jeff Sledd, who is the county executive director of the San Luis Obispo County Farm Service Agency, which is part of the United States Department of Agriculture. And today we're going to talk about the tree Assistance Program plus couple of other things. Hey, thanks for being on the podcast, Jeff.

Jeff Sledd 0:14

Hey, I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to join you, Craig. Thank you.

Craig Macmillan 0:18

For those who may not be familiar with the organization, what exactly is the Farm Service Agency?

Jeff Sledd 0:23

Sure, good question. So the Farm Service Agency is a division of the United States Department of Agriculture. We are tasked specifically to administer the Farm Bill, which is a package of legislation that Congress puts out around every five or so years, that has to do with everything ag related in the US. And the Farm Service Agency specifically administers the subsidy and disaster programs that are designed to aid farmers with financial assistance to help them feed America.

Craig Macmillan 0:59

And speaking of disasters, there is a program called the Tree Assistance Program that is to help growers of tree things specifically, in the face of various kinds of losses. Can you tell us a little bit about the program just in general and who's eligible?

Jeff Sledd 1:15

So yes, it's called the Tree Assistance Program. Because we're a federal agency. We abbreviate everything, so if you call in and ask about it, you'll probably hear us call it TAP tree Assistance Program. It's a bit of a misnomer because it is for trees, bushes and vines, anything that is grown, that is part of a commercial farming operation, this program would cover those. Again, like I said, as long as it's for commercial consumption or use. The Tree Assistance Program specifically, is a cost share program that helps farmers and ranchers and orchardists remove and replant dead or diseased trees, bushes, and vines that are dead or diseased because of a qualifying condition for the program. Most of those conditions are natural occurrences weather related disasters but for grape growers, specifically in San Luis Obispo County, the plant disease Red Blotch is sort of how this program is used most. So for orchardists, who have Red Blotch in their vineyards to a point where you know, it's beginning to curtail their production. This program helps cost share the price of removing those vines, prepping the ground, and then replanting new vines.

Craig Macmillan 2:40

Are there other diseases or issues that like maybe statewide that also would be covered for winegrapes by TAP.

Jeff Sledd 2:46

Most other probably parts of the state and the nation really use the tree assistance program more for natural disasters like floods and freezes and things like that. Well, we don't have unfortunately, we don't have very many floods, don't have a lot of rain. But probably it could be used for things like fire if a fire came through and burn up an orchard. But it's typically used more for like freezes and things like that.

Craig Macmillan 3:16

I had a memory that maybe Pierce's Disease was also covered by the program and Leaf Roll virus had been added a couple of years ago is that true?

Jeff Sledd 3:23

Leaf roll virus has been added, a Pierce's Disease, although I don't know how prevalent that is in San Luis Obispo County, I can tell you, we haven't helped any vineyards that have Pierce's Disease, but yes, it would, it could qualify and there are other diseases that may not be approved at this point. But if you one of your listeners is being affected by a disease that we haven't mentioned, they can certainly contact us and we can go through the process of potentially having that specific disease added as a qualifying condition.

Craig Macmillan 4:00

I think this is an important point is that, you know, our listenership is national now. And there may be things that are either happening, like Pierce's Disease, for instance, or something like that, where they're dealing with it, but they're not getting the information that oh, this qualifies. Or, you know, we got to face facts that like we live in a ever changing environment. And there may be things that come down the pike in the future that may be devastating and may may be potentially could qualify, but of course, don't know that they can bring that. Please bring your issues and we'll look into it and we'll see if it qualifies or not. Maybe it doesn't maybe it does, but it's part of the grower community has to say hey, these are things that are that are impacting us. And to come to say, hey, we need, we'd like some help. What do you think?

Jeff Sledd 4:45

Yeah, that's a good point. Craig. So I'm talking specifically about San Luis Obispo County here in California. However, this program is available nationwide, any county in the nation has a Farm Service Agency Office. That county may specifically, have other diseases that are already approved qualifying losses, or conditions that are prevalent in that area. Red Blotch just happens to be very prevalent in our area. So it's kind of our main concern, but other counties across the nation, if your listeners are listening to this, and they're experiencing something that may be more localized to them, they should definitely contact their Farm Service Agency office to see what help is available because it certainly could be out there.

Craig Macmillan 5:34

What is the application process like to to get some assistance to TAP? What kind of documentation is required, and specifically, Red Blotch is what you've been working with, so let's talk about how that would work.

Jeff Sledd 5:46

Well, so we're a federal agency. So as you can imagine, there's a significant amount of paperwork involved, none of it is... None of it's too difficult. And all of it, we are more than willing to help you work, work with you to get to get all that paperwork done. So the first part would be an app, a TAP application, a tree Assistance Program application, which is basically just some general information of what disaster are you experiencing. When did that disaster start? When was it apparent to you, because those two aren't necessarily the same, right?

Craig Macmillan 6:26

That's true.

Jeff Sledd 6:27

When it started when it was apparent to you and you know, how many acres and how many trees, bushes or vines are affected in that acreage. So that's the TAP application or the tree Assistance Program application. Then we also have a number of other eligibility documents, that would be required for anybody applying for any kind of benefit through our agency. And, you know, again, any FSA office in the nation will help you process and complete those documents. Yeah, so you're gonna fill out the tree Assistance Program application, as part of that, if you have never participated with any Farm Service Agency programs, we are going to need to identify your ground. So to do that, we're going to need either the recorded grant deed for the acreage that your grapes are on or if it is, if it does happen to be a rented vineyard, vineyard that you're leasing, then you'd have to provide the signed executed current lease that shows the legal description of the land, so we can find that land in our mapping system. So we're going to need your APN numbers or, you know, section township range, something like that, or an address that shows, kind of gives us legal description of that land, so we can identify your land and attach you to it in our system. Then, as a part of that, where you know, we're gonna have to add you into our system. So there's some just some general forms that get your contact information, who you are, your address, contact, all that kind of stuff. And then any producers that apply for benefits with the USDA or with the Farm Service Agency, there is an eligibility requirement that has to do with income under the current Farm Bill to receive benefits, you have to be able to certify that for the the current year that we are in. So if you're applying for a 2022 program that for the year 2022, you will make equal to or less than $900,000 in your adjusted gross income. No one's filed their 2022 taxes yet, the way we determine that is we send a form to the IRS where you give them permission to take a look back, they're going to skip the immediate last year, and then look at the three years before that. So for 2022, we're going to skip 2021 and look back at 2020, 2019 and 2018. And if you as an individual or an entity, if it's a general partnership, or a corporation that is applying for the benefits, if that partnership or entity or individual can qualify that they made the equal to or less than $900,000 for those three review years, then you would be considered eligible or compliant with that average Adjusted Gross Income certification for the program here that you're applying for. It sounds like a complex form, but it's really a check in a box. It's pretty simple. And most producers if if you're, you know at the cusp, that you're not quite sure if you would exceed or you know, be above that threshold, your CPA or tax attorney certainly would be able to help you with that. But it's a pretty simple form. So there's that. Then there's some other forms that are environmental compliance, you have to promise that you're going to take care arable land in such a way that causes it not to erode away and that sort of thing, a lot of paperwork, but it's all basic, pretty simple paperwork and nothing that we're not going to help you walk through.

Craig Macmillan 10:11

So if we go through this, we have a successful application, how much assistance can a grower receive?

Jeff Sledd 10:16

the program does have a payment limitation, right for the 2018 Farm Bill, the payment does cap at $125,000 as the most benefit you could receive through the Tree Assistance Program.

Craig Macmillan 10:34

And you had indicated earlier when we're talking about Red Blotch assistance, and things that can include the removal of the vines, treatment of the land, or management of the land, in some fashion, the purchase of the new plant stock and the planting of the new plants, is that right?

Jeff Sledd 10:48

It does. And so we call those different practices that can be approved, right, so the first one would be the removal of the dead and dying vines. The program specifically says that the vine has to be dead to receive assistance. However, with plant diseases, that's a little bit different, it might still technically be alive. But for financial purposes because of the disease, it financially isn't worth continuing growing this volume, because it's not producing, it won't pay for itself. And so if that's the case, we consider that vine dead, even though it technically is still alive. We do pay for removal of the dead vines, or pay a portion of the cost of removal of the dead vines, and then what we call site prep, re leveling the land, that kind of thing, anything that would need to be done to prep the ground to receive the new trees. And then the new trees themselves, we pay for vines here in California, specifically for vines we pay it's $4 a vine or 65% of your actual cost of those vines. You turn in the receipts for what you actually paid, but we take a look and compare that to our $4 per vine, maximum limit. And then we're gonna pay you the lesser of the two, right either 65% of your actual costs or the $4 per vine. In some cases, we could also pay if the vines, really doesn't work for Red Blotch, for but for other diseases or other disasters, there might be vines that don't necessarily need to be ripped out and removed, but do need significant intervention or rehabilitation. In those cases we would pay for the rehabilitation or a portion of the rehabilitation of those vines, rather than the removal.

Craig Macmillan 12:49

And are there growers in San Luis Obispo County that are taken up the program and being part of it?

Jeff Sledd 12:54

This program is like I said a national program that any producer of tree, bush or vine producer across the nation can use but statistically San Luis Obispo County has used the program more than any other county in the nation.

Craig Macmillan 13:11

Really?

Jeff Sledd 13:12

Yeah,

Craig Macmillan 13:12

That's interesting.

Jeff Sledd 13:14

Specifically because of the prevalence of of Red Blotch in our area. So that's why we felt like it was important to contact you guys and get the word out for any grape growers that may not be aware this programs out there to help them if they're struggling with the costs and what to do about Red Blotch in their vineyard.

Craig Macmillan 13:36

You know, that's fantastic and really happy to hear that. I'm really happy to hear that people are coming for help. We've been talking specifically about the tree assistance program, but are there other FSA programs that are available or might be benefit to wine grape growers that you'd recommend?

Jeff Sledd 13:48

There are well, and very specifically, if you're a wine grape grower in the nation, it's possible if you have crop insurance, federally subsidized crop insurance and you got a an indemnity payment in program year 2020 or 2021. We right now have a program called ERP which stands for Emergency Relief Program. And it has to do with the COVID-19 disaster and the drought disaster that California has in in other parts of the nation. So if you are a grape grower and you received crop insurance indemnities in either 20 or 21, you should have received in the mail already from the Farm Service Agency, an application for the ERP or Emergency Relief Program. And what we're finding is because a lot of grape growers aren't used to dealing with the Farm Service Agency that are kind of throwing those aside because they don't know what it is. And you're essentially throwing away your free money if you do that. So if you did get one of those applications, you need to contact your farm service agents immediately and we'll help you complete the process for that. Because that program will pay you 75% right now, of the indemnity that you already received, we'll pay you that, again, if the indemnities that you received were for qualifying losses under the ERP program. So if you got one of those applications from the Farm Service Agency and don't know what it is, definitely have your your listeners should contact their FSA office in their county. If you did get an indemnity, you got an insurance payment in program year 2020, or 2021, or 2022, as well and didn't get an application, then you should contact your FSA office because we can print it out for you and get it to you. In case it you know, it went to the wrong address or something along those lines. Definitely, that's one we have, like the Tree Assistance Program. We also have, we have other disaster related programs that kind of come and go depending on what the disasters in a certain county or certain parts of the country are. And so definitely, if you are a grape grower, and you have had some kind of natural disaster, or a fire or a flood or freeze or something along those lines, you should definitely reach out to your Farm Service Agency.

Craig Macmillan 16:25

And when I was reading a little bit about the FSA, and if I understood correctly, the way FSA was was designed is meant to be really an interface between the farmer community and the USDA, a spot where people can connect directly to their government, basically, there's grower direction in this, there's a committee of farmers that are involved.

Jeff Sledd 16:46

Yeah, you've done your you've done your homework Craig, good job. So one of the things about the Farm Service Agency that we really pride ourselves in is we are really the last federal agency at a county level that is still directed or run by an elected Board of farmers in our case. So we do have a we call it the county committee, or again, we abbreviate everything, so we call them the COC. But they're a board of elected farmers that they are tasked with reviewing all of these applications that come in and approving or denying them based on procedures. So as the county executive director, I actually report directly to that board, the county committee, and it's kind of my job to help the committee know what the rules and regulations are to know what they what authority they have and don't have, and that sort of thing. And actually, this year, in our county, we have one of our board positions coming available. And we would love actually to have a grape grower on our board. Right now, we don't have a grape grower. We have other producers, you know, other types of farmers, but we would certainly love to have a grape grower. So if you are interested, you have to live in a certain part of the county because the county is cut into different we call them local administrative areas. And so you have to live in the right area of the county and farm in the right area of the county to run. If any of your listeners in San Luis Obispo County are interested, they certainly should reach out to me and because we definitely for 2023 will be holding an election at the end of this year for a seat on that board that is a three year term. That's certainly a way that a farmer or a vineyardist could get involved in the local government of their community that has a direct impact on ag in our community and has influence you know, statewide and even all the way up to the national level and what kind of programs are implemented for farmers here at the local level.

Craig Macmillan 19:05

Yeah, and that may be true at the time of this recording of this particular podcast. But that's in San Luis Obispo County, but it's also going to be true all the way into the future across the nation,

Jeff Sledd 19:15

Across the nation absolutely.

Craig Macmillan 19:16

If you, you know, feel like you can have an influence and like to help your fellow growers, which is what this is about. Getting involved is always a great idea if you're really passionate about trying to make things better for yourself and for your neighbors. And I think this is a great example of how growers can have an impact beyond the fence line, right and can have a positive influence on their community. So I think it's fantastic, great way of organizing the organization. It sounds like a really great way of getting involved with these various things.

Jeff Sledd 19:45

It's a great way to get involved that doesn't require too much time. You know, we're going to ask a couple hours a month from you, usually one day a month for a couple of hours. So it's a great way to get involved ad to assist, and serve the ag community that doesn't require just, you know, tons and tons of time and input.

Craig Macmillan 20:08

So related to TAP or anything else related to the FSA, what is one thing you would recommend to our listeners?

Jeff Sledd 20:15

Sure. So assuming that I'm talking really mostly to grape growers, right, in California, and really across the state, I would recommend, get to know your Farm Service Agency, at least know where that agency is located, how to contact that agency, because if you're not in need of the Tree Assistance Program, right now, we, all the time have ad hoc programs that just kind of come down from Congress to address specific problems that you may or may not have heard in the news about. We have assistance to give away to farmers to producers, ag producers in the nation. And if you don't know about it, you don't get your piece of the pie. So I would say my one one piece of advice is even if you don't have Red Blotch like like what we're talking about today, find out where your Farm Service Agency is, and get involved or get connected to them so that we're aware of you and you're aware of us. So when you do have some need for us, or we have some program that fits what you do, you're in our data bank so we can reach out to you and you know, have that beneficial relationship with one another.

Craig Macmillan 21:25

And so in this particular case, since Obispo County, how do people find you? Where are you located? How do they reach out to you, Jeff?

Jeff Sledd 21:32

In San Luis Obispo County, our office is in Templeton the heart of wine country right here, right next door to Paso Robles. So you can certainly come to our office, but specifically I would tell your producers to go to farmers.gov, FARMERS, farmers.gov. That's the USDA's public facing page. And in that you can get to know really every program we have but there's also on there very easy to find a find your local FSA office and it'll drill down and it'll get you right to the office in your county. Whichever county that is farmers here in San Luis Obispo County can contact me either through farmers.gov or I can give you my email address. Absolutely, welcome to reach out to us that way as well.

Craig Macmillan 22:25

I want to thank our guest, Jeff Sledd County Executive Director of the San Luis Obispo County Farm Service Agency, part of the United States Department of Agriculture. Jeff, it has really been a pleasure. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.

Jeff Sledd 22:37

Craig, I appreciate the opportunity.

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Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. Today we are asking the question, Does social media impact wine sales?

Here are a few ideas to get you started: * How to choose your next bottle by working with existing preferences * How to pair wine with a meal to plan a special dinner * How to line up an at-home tasting * Bonus tip: Ask your followers what they want to learn more about! When you deliver on their requests, they'll continue to look out for your valuable posts.

Tag us, and use the SIP Certified GIPHYs! If you are SIP Certified, we love seeing and sharing your content! Tag us @SIPCertified in your upcoming Instagram and Facebook posts.

References: * Does social media impact wine sales? * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * SIP Certified * Social Media Tips

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What is the most important factor in vineyard irrigation scheduling? Organization. Having defined company goals and someone in charge of holding the team accountable. Tom Shapland, Co-founder and CEO of Tule Technologies and Lucas Pope, Director of Operations at Coastal Vineyard Services share their top challenges and strategies to apply the right amount of water at the right time. Incorporating tools like soil moisture sensors, plant-based monitoring, weather data, and soil types helps farmers know how much water is reserved in the soil so they can irrigate efficiently without applying more than the soil can handle.

References: * 2022-07-15 Night Harvest Lighting & SWEEP Grants Tailgate (register) * 55: Using Technology to Schedule Irrigation (podcast) * 63: Evaluate and Maintain Your Irrigation System (podcast) * 108: Using Satellite Data for Irrigation Scheduling * Drip Irrigation Startup: Recommended Procedures * How To Correct Pressure Chamber Readings for the Influence of Vapor Pressure Deficit (Tom Shapland) * Irrigation Consumer Bill of Rights * Irrigation Maintenance in English & Spanish (video) * Irrigation Scheduling in Winegrape Vineyards (by Craig Macmillan and Kris Beal) * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 * Tule Technologies * Tule Technologies video library on irrigation topics * Coastal Vineyard Services

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Hi, I'm your host Craig Macmillan. And today our guests are Tom Shapland, who is the Co-Founder and CEO of Tule Technologies. And Lucas Pope, who is Director of Operations for Coastal Vineyard Services. Thanks, you guys for being here.

Tom Shapland 0:12

Great to be here. Thank you for having us.

Craig Macmillan 0:16

Today, we're going to talk about irrigation scheduling very important topic, obviously, which will become obvious if it's not already as we move through the interview here. I've had a lot of experience with this. And now I get the pleasure of hearing what other folks say rather than just listening to myself all the time. I've got a question for both of you, Tom, you can go first. Why is irrigation scheduling using a methadone other than just simply calendar approach so important?

Tom Shapland 0:39

We know irrigation scheduling is important, because every year the yield and quality from a vineyard changes. And we can ask ourself, what happened that the yield or quality is different this year in this very same piece of ground compared to last year. And there are a number of factors we can point to the weather is different every year, how you manage the canopy may be different every year, how you manage the fruit load. And finally, another thing that's important is how much water has been stored in the soil profile from winter rainfall and how you irrigate it. And we know that every year the vines get, a vineyard block gets a different amount of water from winter rainfall that sets up every year in a different way. And how we irrigate influences the water status of the plants throughout the year and in turn influences the yield and quality of the vineyard. So we can look at the yield and quality for each particular year. And we can ask ourselves, why is the yielding quality different this year compared to last year. And one of the main factors is how we irrigated. That if we just irrigate, assuming that everything's the same every year that the canopy size is the same, the amount of rainfall stored in the soil profile is the same, we're gonna get a different result. So if you're really trying to aim for a certain yield target, or a certain quality target, or a certain yield and quality target, you can't just leave it up to a calendar, you're not going to reach your production goal, you have to manage according to the water status of the plant, you have to manage irrigation according to the water status and plants. If you expect to reach some target in yielding quality, you can't manage by calendar to achieve your targets for yield and quality you have to manage based on the water status of the plants.

Craig Macmillan 2:21

So this would be similar conceptually to the idea of targeted fertilization, where I'm going to measure how much nitrogen in the soil I'm going to measure what the plant nutrient status is. And I'm going to act accordingly as opposed to just putting on so many units every spring or fall. Lucas, what are your thoughts on this topic?

Lucas Pope 2:37

I think Tom hit it on the head. Ultimately, each season is different. So we are trying to actively manage different things at different times of the year. So going from a calendar type, more of an old school thought process of just irrigating on a calendar doesn't really work. Now, in an environment where quality and quantity kind of drive what we do as a farmer. I definitely second all the thoughts that Tom had. And I think that being active in your irrigation management allows you to drive the boat. I've learned a lot over the years from Tom about how early season growth and canopy growth is really important for quality. And you can drive that and being able to limit the water and stress the vines later in the season drives quality. If you're trying to hit top top quality grapes, it's extremely important. One of the most important factors in how we're able to farm actively with our environment to try and achieve the quality that our clients are expecting.

Craig Macmillan 3:37

In your career. Lucas, what are some of the technologies and techniques that you've used over the years to achieve that, because there's lots of different ways to do it. I'm guessing you probably have used a number of different ways.

Lucas Pope 3:47

You've used a number ways. And I've also seen a lot of presentations on different technologies. There are I remember seeing Tom when he was a graduate student give a presentation at Templeton. I fully bought on to the idea, it's gonna be really interesting to see if he was able to actually implement and he made his product commercial, it was phenomenal to see the ability to actually measure your Et coming off the field.

Craig Macmillan 4:10

What does Et stand for?

Lucas Pope 4:12

Evapotransporation. So the actual vines breathing per se, it's exhaling of humidity, and you can measure that very accurately. We've also looked at SAP flow technology where you get SAP and track its movement over a trunk and then a lot of pressure bombs, a whole lot of pressure bombs. Looking at also soil probes to see what's going on underground. That's also a really critical part of the irrigation puzzles, knowing what's going on underground. And if you know your dirt really well then really aids in your decision making process for how much water to put on for your goal of that irrigation. So there are a lot of things out there to help you monitor. At some point there's so much data that it becomes hard to sift through and get good information but I utilize now only the... We have a few soil moisture sensors, but primarily the whole actual Et tracking, because what I've found works the best for me.

Craig Macmillan 5:07

I think one of the keys here is that you've got soil based methods. So you get so much monitored, you've got your plant based methods, whether it's measuring water potential in the plant with a pressure bomb, or whether it's a SAP flow meter measurement. And then you have weather based, whether it be Et, or just trying to work from some kind of weather information. And some of the people that I've talked to seem to feel that relying just on one maybe isn't all it's cracked up to be, but having the ability to look at a couple of different variables. So they Lucas in your case, having some soil and having some weather so that you can kind of correlate and make decisions based on the bigger, bigger picture, I think is great.

Lucas Pope 5:48

For sure, one of the big factors to all this is having a really good forecast, a really good forecast for seeing what's coming up. Because irrigation timing and management has to be something you actively take care of. And you're always thinking about forecasting is also a huge part of it.

Craig Macmillan 6:04

There's there's forecasting, and there's also looking backward. And this is something that continually confuses me. And I've tried to figure this out. And I think I'm still confused. So we measured the water applied in terms of acre feet per acre. That's kind of like really important metric on an annual basis, to say, hey, how are we doing? Did we put on more did we put on less? Did we put on enough? How did the different blocks fare? And they could fit based on the acre inch anchor inch to the idea of rain falling, covering an acre of land, one inch deep, thats so many gallons, but that's not how the water goes on to the actual vineyard. Tom, can you maybe address the difference between those two concepts? Because I haven't really gotten it straight.

Tom Shapland 6:45

We get this question from our customers. And whenever this comes up, I have to pause and think about it for a little bit, because it's complicated. In fact, I normally review some notes that I have to make sure that I'm getting it right. I'm really reviewing those notes now, in the podcast as I talk through this. So let's start with the idea of what is an acre inch. An acre inch is enough water to fill a pool that is one acre in size to a depth of one inch. So imagine a pool that's the size of an acre and you put enough water in there, that when you step in that pool, it goes up to just below your ankle, and it takes about 27,000 gallons of water to do that. So an acre inch is a volume of water and it's 27,000 gallons. When we apply water and vineyards we're not spreading that water evenly out over the acre. Instead we're applying it through drip emitters. It brings up the question how much water is getting applied right under the vine in that drip emitter space in the in the wet area under the drip emitter. And that's what I'm going to talk through now. So let's first talk about a typical vineyard in San Luis Obispo County. Typical vineyard in San Luis Obispo County has nine by five foot, vine and row spacing. So the vines are spaced nine feet apart between rows and five feet apart within rows. And with the typical emitter rates that we see in San Luis Obispo County, if you turn on your pump and let it run for 20 hours, you will have applied 27,000 gallons per acre. The first concept I want to tell the listeners is when you're asking yourself how do I know when I've applied an acre inch to my entire vineyard. You can think of the number 20 hours. In San Luis Obispo County typically 20 hours is how long it takes to run an irrigation system to apply an acre inch of water. That's because most vineyards in San Luis Obispo County are a nine by five spacing. And when you look at the emitter rates and how many emitters there are per vine works out to about 20 hours.

Craig Macmillan 8:53

And it's easy enough to do the conversion to other spacings once we know that based on like an apply to mine.

Tom Shapland 8:58

So here's the trickier part. Now that we've established one acre inches, and we've established how long it takes to run an irrigation system to apply an acre inch or 27,000 gallons of water. Now let's talk about how much water gets applied under the drip zone. When we turn on the pump, and I'm going to walk you through that calculation. Let's assume that's the water when you turn it on the pump is spread out under the drip zone in about a foot and a half square area. So picture a square foot but make it a little bit bigger. So it's about a foot and a half square foot. And again, we're going to assume this vineyard is on nine by five spacing. And when you turn on the water for 20 hours and you apply 27,000 gallons of water through the drip system. You're not putting on that water across that entire area of the vineyard. Instead you're putting it on a more limited area of the vineyard just that foot and a half under the drip zone. Foot maps, square foot under the drip zone. So when you apply 27,000 gallons under that foot and a half under the drip zone, you're actually applying 8.3 inches of water to that wetted area. And the reason that's true is because you're applying the water, not across the entire vineyard, but a much smaller area of the vineyard, just the wet zone, you're not spreading that water equally across the entire vineyard. Instead, it's just the wetted zone. So why does that 8.3 inches number important? Well, it's, it's interesting to think about in terms of what's the average water holding capacity in San Luis Obispo County. For six feet of rooting depth, let's just say six feet is a good starting point for assuming how how deep the vines, vine roots go actually think they tend to go deeper. I know they go deeper if the soil is deeper, but let's just assume six feet. Well, the water holding capacity in San Luis Obispo County is 5.3 inches on average. So if you're turning on your pump for 20 hours, let's bring it all together. Now all back to one idea. If you turn on your pump for 20 hours, you're gonna apply an inch of water, but you're not putting that water out across the entire vineyard, you're putting it just in the wetted zone. And if your vineyard has the average water holding capacity in the county, you're putting on more water than that soil can hold under the drip zone. You're putting on 8.3 inches of water. But the soil can only hold 5.3 inches of water.

Craig Macmillan 11:27

So if I put on 5.3 inches of water only? Am I going to capture all of that? Or is there still going to be some drainage?

Tom Shapland 11:34

That's a interesting question, Craig.

Craig Macmillan 11:36

Depend on the soil probably?

Tom Shapland 11:38

Yeah, let's say that we're going back to this hypothetical vineyard that we've been talking about here, it has 5.3 inches of water holding capacity. If that soil is at the permanent wilting point, so it's very dry already, and you put on 5.3 inches of water in that drip zone, then that water should be there, that water is not going to go anywhere, you're actually going to lose some to evaporation. That's why I hesitated there. But let's assume there's no evaporation either. If you put on 5.3 inches of water, just under that drip zone, it's in your soils dry to start with, it'll hold it. But if you have any water already in there, you're gonna saturate that soil. And you're gonna get some drainage out the bottom, or you'll start to see some runoff off the top. It gets a little tricky in this hypothetical situation we're talking about, I think maybe we shouldn't avoid that for the moment.

Craig Macmillan 12:30

But this that, because of variation along the coast, this means I'm going to have to have an idea of what my particular water available water only capacity is. Lucas, what how do you go about guesstimating or measuring or getting a handle on that because in your area, you've got everything from really heavy clays to sand.

Lucas Pope 12:47

Yeah, so the only way to really do it is soil samples. And Tom has helped me dissect some soil pits to figure out different layers, different depths, water holding capacities, actually sending out soils to labs, to find out your entire profile five to six feet deep, how much water you can actually hold or, like in the case of places we have soil moisture sensors, we can just watch the water, and then watch how fast it drains. It's pretty interesting to see. And that's typically why we irrigate not such long sets, the only time we really irrigate really long sets is to leech salt, because like Tom saying, if you're going to do a long set, you're going to carry the water beyond the rooting zone. And therefore you're able to leach those salts farther down. But that's only in overwinter watering. We're not we never really do that during the summertime or even to drive some growth this time of the year. Most of our irrigation sets are between four and eight hours to give the vines enough water that they're in the soil for them to grow, but not be excessive. I think that's been one of the more critical parts are pieces to the puzzle when you're trying to be as water conscious as possible.

Craig Macmillan 14:00

So Lucas, how do you know what's excessive?

Lucas Pope 14:03

What's excessive would be I mean, if you have the ability to watch this, the soil sensors, soil moisture probes, you can tell when you hit the depth at the bottom and tell where how deep that is. And if you're being excessive. Otherwise, if you overwinter when we're trying to leach salts, we want to be excessive when waters you know, typically we do that while there's rain coming and a rain event coming or rain event just past. So your soils are going to be somewhere near saturation already. And we're just trying to push salt deeper. Otherwise, it's a really good question. We don't try and be excessive and that's why we keep our irrigations shorter.

Craig Macmillan 14:37

Then my question I guess is, like how do you know?

Tom Shapland 14:40

Let me jump in, One way I sometimes see this with some of our new customers who have not been measuring Et in the past. We tell them with our sensor here's how much water your vineyard used over the last week. And if you're applying more water than what the vines used, then that's one way of knowing that I'm applying too much water. So if my vines use 20 gallons per vine last week, but you put on 30, you know that those vines didn't use all of the water that you put on.

Craig Macmillan 15:14

I want to ask you guys about the flip side of this, how do I know if I'm not putting on enough water? Especially when we're in a drought, we're not getting rain, we may not be getting that soil profile filled up going into budbreak. We may, we're having some heat events. Weather information in the Paso Robles area that I looked at last year showed that the highs were higher and the length of the heat waves were longer. And it's not a linear relationship by any means. I'm not suggesting that. But we had some, you know, 105 for four days in a row situations. How do I know whether I'm putting on enough?

Tom Shapland 15:45

It depends on what time of year, you'd have different goals for different times of year. So this time of year, we're talking now in the spring, it's May, the goal is to develop a large enough canopy that you can ripen your crop and protect your crop from sun damage. So this time of year, growers are watching their shoot tips and monitoring the growth of their shoot tips or monitoring the growth of their vines making sure that their vines are not slowing down. Once the vines slow down and stop growing, it's hard to restart that growth. And some of our growers are using our computer vision tool called Tule Vision that tells the grower whether or not the vines are less than 10 bars in midday leaf water potential or 10 bars or above 10 bars in midday leaf water potential. And right around 10 bars is where the vines start to slow down. So are, some of our growers are using this tool to monitor their canopies and make sure they're not slowing down if they begin to see signs that they're slowing down like they're seeing midday leaf water potential readings of 10 bars, then they know it's time to take some sort of action. Generally that action is water. I think it's water because I have a hammer, and everything's a nail everything's a water problem for me. But you know if you know the nutritional status of your vineyard, how it's been managed, you think it hasn't been getting enough nitrogen might be time for a shot of nitrogen too. So to summarize, in the beginning of the season, you're trying to manage canopy growth and growers are watching their canopies. If they're canopies are slowing down, they need to apply water and nitrogen. Then once the canopy has reached its full size around pea size, for the fruit stage, it typically happens late May to get the most vigorous sites it can be all the way you know, mid July, and in some areas of San Luis Obispo County, then growers are managing the stress level their plants they're seeing how stressed their plants are. And the best growers have a plan going into the season for here's how much water stress I want at different stages of the crop development. And I'm going to monitor my water stress compared to that target and irrigate when I go below that target. I may hold off from irrigating while I'm above that target. And we started this conversation talking about the importance of irrigating not on the calendar, so that you can achieve the yield and quality goals that you have every year. Wine business is very competitive. You have to achieve your targets for staying alive. Thus, growers are setting up targets for what water stress they want, at different times of the year. And then monitoring that water stress and irrigating accordingly. And so they can get to that yield and quality target that they set out for.

Craig Macmillan 18:22

And the key key here is that those targets are numerical, they are measured. They are quantitative. I want to touch on the Tule Vision technology for a second because I think it's an interesting hybrid, where the way I understand is that you have a camera, you take a picture of a vine, it then goes to the cloud, there's a artificial intelligence machine learning thing to understand. That takes that image compares it to this huge catalog that was ground truth against pressure bomb readings for leaf water potential or stem water potentials. That's right, that accurate?

Lucas Pope 18:57

Tom, did you use pressure bombs? Or do you use the Tule measurements?

Tom Shapland 19:02

We use the Tule measurements, that's what I was about to say. The Tule measurements and Tule measurements are correlated to the pressure bomb. So we use some of the academic research that showed the relationship between water stress measured using the Et method and water stress measured using the pressure bond method. We use that relationship to create our ground truth data set.

Craig Macmillan 19:24

Okay, so there was actually there's some kind of steps something's correlated that something's correlated something else. The reason I bring this up is I did a study with Vineyard Team few years ago, and we would interview growers about irrigation scheduling and the number one thing that came out of it was visual. So people might have these other technologies but the number one thing they revised the relied upon was visual. I thought that was really made a lot of sense. I get it. But also the other thing was like even with visual information, you can quantify it. You can count active shoot tips, you can again take pictures for yourself, you can you know look at the Tule Vision information. I went to one of your are demonstrations, I was walking around with a couple of growers, and we were identifying just visually ourselves what we thought the stress level of the vines were. And we were pretty good. We were pretty good. But again, there wasn't a number tied to it. And I think that that's important when you're especially when you're working with 10s of millions of dollars with a crop, winging it. Yeah, you know, your comfort level. And so I think that there's, again, this idea that there's multiple ways of bringing this all together, and you can walk your vineyard and look and early, hey, I'm seeing what I think is the right amount of stress or not. But if you can put a number with it from another measure and go, Hey, now I know exactly how much water I do want to put on I don't want to put on and again, getting to how many inches it actually is how many gallons it actually is, I think is really important. Because otherwise, like you said, we're losing water that otherwise we could be using later. And if it's draining out of the out of the flow profile, then we're losing it. In your guys's minds, what are the biggest challenges? Just overall, we've talked about all kinds of tools and methods? What are some of the biggest challenges overall to scheduling irrigation efficiently? I'm gonna start with you, Lucas.

Lucas Pope 20:59

I mean, it's a constantly moving target. Looking at a forecast right now that you know, we're in the 60s right now. But it's possible to hit 100 on Sunday, and possibly 98 on Monday. Trying to make sure because we're building canopy right now, trying to make sure that we have enough water. So the vines don't stress too early in the season, next week will be really an interesting equation to navigate through because we have so many different vineyards all over the place. Those that have different water holding capacities in the soils, if you have a lower water holding capacity, it's going to be one of my priorities to try and get a little bit of water on this week. Where other sites that are less hillsides or have a drought tolerant rootstock that I know has been established for a few years I'm not so worried about but the constantly moving target is the hardest part about irrigation scheduling, for sure. Like Tom said, we set up targets. I set them up last week for where I want to see my stress levels later in the season. At this point, we're building canopy that's the the focus for right now because I want to have enough canopy to ripen the fruit that is being expected to be grown to a quality level that we want to see into that equation comes how many leaves are going to pull or not based upon sight and location and sunburn exposure or shade cloth use. That all comes into the equation. But because Mother Nature, we're trying to do our best to guide these vines through to the end of the season and deliver a product, a grape itself, that's the highest quality through a maze of what Mother Nature is throwing at us. Like you said, I mean, I can't believe last year's heat waves. It didn't seem that hot. But it was for an extended period of time. The heat spikes I think are what gives us the most, a few years ago when we hit 115 for multiple days straight that that really hurts, we have to be so far in advance thinking about what happens when that situation comes up, we really need to be proactive on those types of situations.

Craig Macmillan 22:57

And that brings me to the next point, which I think is a tricky one. And Tom, I want you to address this. Weather based irrigation scheduling methods like EtAor EtO, they they are backward looking. They're saying hey, this is how much was lost? How can I use this concept of this technology or these ideas to get ahead of it? The grower has got to be in front right or vines are going to collapse. And then you try to put water back on and it's too late. It's got to be wet going into that, right? Those roots need to be wet and cool going into that. What can I do? I mean, there's not a direct relationship necessarily between hey, it's gonna be 105 on Sunday, and that means it's gonna be an EtA of, et cetera. What help can you give us what? What can you tell us?

Tom Shapland 23:41

I can tell you what I see in our data. We have data throughout the state and vineyards all along the coast and inland. And it all boils down to one concept. And this is something that we intuitively know as people who love plants and manage plants. And so they stare at plants all day. And that's that if the plants are in a good water status, before heatwave, they'll do fine. A lot of your vineyards right now out there, it's it's early May when we're talking right now, if we got a heat wave tomorrow, are you are on deep soil and those shoot tips are growing actively and the plants are bright green, they'll do just fine. There's no need to panic and put on 20 hours of water. But if your plants are beginning to dry out, if your water status is more stressed, it's on the brink of being more stressed than you want. And you get a heatwave, that's when you reach these situations where the plants crash and it's hard to get them to recover. And I see this in our data, you know, we get heat waves and as long as the fields that are water stress reading is high, the plants do fine. You know there's not a big drop in fields stat it's when the plants are already kind of at 60% fields stat they're already stressed and we get as heat wave and they don't put on water, then we see fields stats just plummet and it's hard to get them back up. And then the growers are putting on a ton of water. And I think most of that's going to evaporation the plants aren't even able to take it it. Does that match what you've seen Lucas?

Lucas Pope 25:12

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. The vines as long as they're so happy, going into a heatwave, we're pretty good. And I think that's why we strategize the way we do for our irrigations pre heat waves. And it's always 100%. That's where the forecast comes in. The weather forecast itself comes in having a good weather forecast is very difficult sometimes. So I don't know, Craig, I look at three or four. I don't know how many you look at. But I have my little bits and pieces I pick from each one that I trust. And then I try and put them all together and.

Craig Macmillan 25:46

Hope for the best. It's fun to compare notes with people on what whether they trust, what forecasts they trust. Tommy mentioned a thing called field stat. Can you briefly explain what that is, because it's a technical term?

Tom Shapland 25:58

There are a lot of ways to measure water status of plants, they have been developed in the academic literature for years and years. One way is something that we're all familiar with, and, and that's called pressure chamber, water potential measured with the pressure chamber. Another method is to look at how much water the plants are using and compare that to how much they could use, given the weather in the size of the plant. So imagine a plant, if it's 80 degrees out and sunny, and your size of your plant is a six foot long cordon with a nice full canopy, that plant can use so much water, let's say that plant can use five gallons that day. If that plant is not water stressed, it's gonna use all five gallons. But if that plant is encountering water deficits in the soil, it's going to regulate its water use and its going to use less water, it's gonna use three gallons of water, for example. So if plants are using less water than they potentially could use their water stressed. And in academia, this comparison of how much water plants are using compared to what they potentially could use is called the stress coefficient in the Et equation, but the stress coefficient doesn't sound very snappy. We call it field stat, because it sounds cooler.

Craig Macmillan 27:21

That makes sense. We're running out of time here. But I wanted to ask you guys, what is the one thing that you would advise a fellow grower as far as irrigation scheduling? What would be the one bit of advice you might give somebody? Tom why don't you go first?

Tom Shapland 27:36

Yeah, I was thinking about this when he said, What's the hardest part of irrigation scheduling. And when I started Tule, I thought the hardest part was getting good information that you could act upon. And now after nine years of running this business, I think that the hardest part is organizational. Like customers that do the best at farming, they're the most profitable, that grow the best fruit, are the best organized. Our best customers have somebody that is in charge of figuring out the priorities of what's important agronomically. And then once they've identified the priorities, agronomically, they have a process for evaluating which tool they're gonna use to help them achieve their agronomic goals. And then they have a process for implementing it and holding people accountable. Farming is chaos. It's a great Mike Tyson, quote, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. You know, every farmer goes into the growing season with a great plan. But then the farming season happens, you lose a well and whatnot. And it all goes to heck. And the best companies we work with, have systems in place where they have goals, and they have somebody holding everyone on their team accountable to those goals. And I'm gonna say the opposite of that now. And when I think of those customers, I have a rosy and optimistic outlook for California agriculture. Unfortunately, they're the minority. Majority of farming operations they have, I mean, it sounds really harsh to say this, I wonder if I should say it on record. But I think it's true. From my experiences working in ag, the majority of farming operations, they have too many ad hoc processes. You know, too many things, too many responsibilities, that should be corporate initiatives pushed down on their individual ranch manager. And the ranch manager is too busy trying to run the pumps and game the fertilizer out and getting the sprays done to actually be able to implement these things that are really important and much more bigger picture. And we have to stay ahead of these. Otherwise LA's gonna take all our water.

Craig Macmillan 29:34

So just to kind of summarize, having systems in place and having people that are responsible for executing those systems. So it's great to have a plan but unless you have some structure that's going to withstand the panic, right, that ensues during the growing season, then you're going to struggle.

Tom Shapland 29:53

Yes, and I'm sorry, I'm gonna keep soapboxing for a little bit here. That means that you can't put your ranch managers in charge of evaluating technology and what technologies are getting us which practices they're getting us because they're too busy. You gotta have somebody more senior, somebody at Lucas Pope's level in the organization to say, water is important at this company, pest management is important at this company. Here's how we're going to do it. And I'm going to hold you accountable all season long that you're getting this done.

Craig Macmillan 30:20

Yeah, I think the comparison to pest management is a good one. If you got field scouts that are quantifying and reporting back to maybe a head PCA or to a manager, that's very different than relying upon your tractor drivers to report when things look bad. And unfortunately, a lot of us don't have time or money or to organizationally address that. But if you can, that's going to be your best route for irrigation. And for other things. Lucas, what's the one thing you'd advise a grower regarding this irrigation scheduling?

Lucas Pope 30:47

Super interesting. Listen to Tom, on one thing, it's hard, paying attention to details is going to be your biggest asset. Spending the time I was struggling with the whole idea of something I want to do ages ago was make work orders like in a winery for irrigation, sprays, so that you hand someone a piece of paper, they have to sign off on the work being done. and report back to you see how to record of it.

Craig Macmillan 31:13

It's hard to do in farming, though, because it's a day to day morning of, you know, kind of thing. But yeah, I hear what you're saying. Yeah,

Lucas Pope 31:20

I mean, ultimately, we're always looking to the future instead of the past with the forecast and how hot it's going to be and how our well health is and how much water we have available to us in a reservoir or trying to look forward. And then also having really good people. And it's extremely difficult to find really good people. But when you build a team, and everybody's working towards the same goal, so from the top to the bottom, we all know the same goal, it becomes much easier to implement a plan of action.

Craig Macmillan 31:51

Well, this is interesting. We we're out of time, the one comment I want to make to kind of bring this all together is we started with technology, we ended up with people. And I think that that's a key bit of this business is the people part and how we apply things. I want to thank you both for being here. I guess it's been Tom Shapland, founder, Co-Founder and CEO of Tule Technologies and Lucas Pope, Director of Operations for Coastal Vineyard Services here in the central coast. Really fascinating conversation. I really appreciate you guys taking the time. Please visit our website for other podcasts and information and we hope that you will come back and take another listen to Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Thank you.

Tom Shapland 32:28

Thank you for having us. This was really fun.

Lucas Pope 32:30

I really enjoyed it.

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Invasive pests and diseases are a challenge for all grape growers. Research is vital to develop new strategies and solutions. The Pierce’s Disease/Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board was established nearly two decades ago to allocate funding to the most promising research projects. Kristin Lowe, Research Coordinator at the Pierce's Disease and Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board and President of Vine Balance Consulting shares how projects are funded through a rigorous scientific review and screening panel. Also, learn about some of the most exciting projects including “pathogen confusion” to control Pierce’s Disease from Dr. Steve Lindow and a gene editing technology for grapevines using plant protoplasts Dr David Tricoli.

References: * 89: New Pierce’s Disease Vaccine (podcast) * 2021 Pierce’s Disease Research Projects at a Glance * 2021 Pierce’s Disease Research Symposium Proceedings * 2021 Pierce’s Disease Research Symposium session recordings * 2022-07-16 Night Harvest Lighting & SWEEP Grants Tailgate * About the PD/GWSS Board * Biological Control of Pierce’s Disease of Grape by an Endophytic Bacterium * CDFA Pierce's Disease Research Symposium * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 * Vine Balance Consulting

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

I'm your host Craig Mcmillan. And with me today is Kristin Lowe, president of Vine Balance Consulting, and research coordinator for the Pierce's Disease Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board. Welcome, Kristin.

Kristin Lowe 0:12

Thank you so much for having me.

Craig Macmillan 0:13

First off, can you tell us what is the Pierce's Disease and Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board or the PDGWSS? As I want to call it from now on?

Kristin Lowe 0:21

Absolutely. So the PDGWSS Board is a group of California growers or grower producers. There's 14 board members and also one public member. And their primary goal is to make sure that all of the assessment funds that are received to the board go to the most promising research for our most challenging pests and diseases today. Those that are designated as important problems.

Craig Macmillan 0:48

And so the funding comes from an assessment.

Kristin Lowe 0:50

That is correct. So the assessment, I believe, on average is about $1.50 per $1,000 of grapes in terms of value .The most, the cap is at $3 per 1000 grapes in value. But yes, that's collected every year and has been so since the board started back in 2001.

Craig Macmillan 1:13

What led to the creation of the board?

Kristin Lowe 1:15

Pierce's Disease. So. Well, I think anyone who's looked into the history of Pierce's Disease, so this is a bacterial disease, endemic to California, not not necessarily new to California, right. But what was new to California was not only the establishment, but the fact that the Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter started thriving down in Southern California. That is the vector for Pierce's Disease. That insect exists in parts of Mexico and also parts of Florida and the Southeast US. But it got to California, and it started doing really well to the point that Pierce's disease started taking off. This led to a lot of sad looking pictures of dead vines, lots of concern over lost acreage, and this would be during the late 1990s or so. And in response to this, industry leaders from all different groups came together. A combination of industry USDA, UC California researchers, CDFA, to create the Pierce's Disease Control Program. And that's got many facets, but one of it is the PDGWSS Board, which whose mission is to fund the most important research to combat Pierce's Disease, Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter and all the other pests that they've designated in their RFP.

Craig Macmillan 2:31

Yeah. And so the the mission is expanded now beyond just Glassy-Wing to a number of other invasive pests that correct?

Kristin Lowe 2:37

Yeah, it has it has. And there's, there's a clear path for that. And I think what really blew that open was the European Grapevine Moth. So another invasive pest species that showed up, oh, gosh, and I think that was somewhere around 2011 or so maybe a little bit before, but agriculture always has a new bad guy. And so we needed a way for the for the PDGWSS board to, you know, expand what it was going to fund in terms of research to deal with new problems and, and continuing ones that keep coming back.

Craig Macmillan 3:08

So what exactly is your role with the board?

Kristin Lowe 3:11

Sure. So, they put out a call for proposals for a research coordinator last year, and I got the job, very excited. And so my goal is to kind of basically help guide the program to make sure that what we're funding is really on point to, to our goal, on point to making sure that the research is heading in the right direction, it's we get continual progress, and is also able to collaborate with, you know, get foster collaboration with other agencies, we have this general sense that we've been going since 2001. And there's been a lot of really great research going on for Pierce's Disease. These days, our problems might be different. And so the RFP expanded, also to include grapevine viruses. And those seem to be a real multi headed monster, for the industry for many levels. So I think that while my overall goal is just to make sure that the research funding program is focused and relevant, we're starting to look a lot more closely at visruses.

Craig Macmillan 4:20

And RFPs is Request for Proposals?

Kristin Lowe 4:22

Correct RFP is the request for proposals.

Craig Macmillan 4:25

Okay, so academics, scientists, will write up a proposal of what they want to do research wise, and they bring it to the board, and the board, evaluates them and decides, hey, would give some money to this, we'll give some money to that.

Kristin Lowe 4:39

Yes, absolutely. So we coordinate with other funding agencies and for the wine industry and actually for the whole wine and grape industry, not just in California, but in Oregon as well. And we all put out a request for proposals on the same date, December 1. And that after a couple months that closes and we look atthe proposals and they go through the PDGWSS Board, they go through scientific review, pretty stringent scientific review, and then also our research screening panel process. And ultimately, the Board makes the final decision on what gets funded within that year.

Craig Macmillan 5:14

Cool. So tell us about some of these projects. I mean, it's been 20 years. What's happened? What are some of the ones that you are excited about? Or remember are really proud of?

Kristin Lowe 5:23

Yeah, oh, there's so many. And I am I am so nervous about like glossing over things or missing details that I'm going to take this opportunity to tell everybody that there's some great resources on our website that you can, that you can look at to get more details. And that is cdfa.ca.gov/PDCP/research. And on there you can look at, there's a document that says projects at a glance, just great layman's layman person summaries of all of the research has been going on. There's our entire research symposium proceedings, and some recordings as well of

Craig Macmillan 6:05

Yes,

Kristin Lowe 6:06

... recent one. So, you know, because this is public assessment money, this information should be available to everyone in the industry. So we work really hard to keep that website updated.

Craig Macmillan 6:16

And we will have links to all of those on the page.

Kristin Lowe 6:19

Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Okay, so some science.

Craig Macmillan 6:23

Yes!

Kristin Lowe 6:23

Have you heard Dr. Steve Lindow talk about his work on Paraburkholderia?

Craig Macmillan 6:29

No, I haven't.

Kristin Lowe 6:31

You haven't? I thought he I thought he presented at this Sustainable Ag Expo a few years ago, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Craig Macmillan 6:37

No, he may have been I may not have been there.

Kristin Lowe 6:40

Yeah, yeah. So Dr. Steve Lindow, is at UC Davis. And he made a crazy exciting discovery, there is a endophytic bacteria called Paraburkholderia phytofirmans, I'll just call it like, Paraburkholderia. That's enough of a mouthful.

Craig Macmillan 6:57

That's enough, yeah.

Kristin Lowe 6:58

And it inhibits the movement of xylella fastidiosa. So of the Pierce's Disease controlling or the organism responsible for Pierce's Disease, within the vine. So this endophytic bacteria, if you put it in the vine, at the same time, that's Xylella, in there, it not only moves throughout the vine, so it becomes systemic, but it inhibits the movement of the pathogen. So this is kind of huge. This species has been looked at before for for other reasons. But what this basically is, we're hoping that it leads to, is an infield treatment with an endophytic bacteria. So his work has involved figuring out, first of all the mechanism. But second of all, the practical aspect of this, which is what I love about it. It seems to work best when the two organisms are there together. So there's a timing of you know, do we pre inoculate with endophytic bacteria, and then it gets Xylella. That works. Or if a vine has been infected with Xylella, and then you are able to treat it with a Paraburkholderia. It also helps to not only the reduce the Xylella count, but reduce symptoms.

Craig Macmillan 8:14

How do you introduce it this thing into the vine?

Kristin Lowe 8:18

Oh, right. Yeah, first of all, with a pinprick basically. So an inoculation, I don't think everyone out there is going to want to go through and inoculate every vine. So they are working on a sprayable formulation. And to be able to actually get that into the vine, as well. And it seems to work with certain types of surfactants. So that's kind of where that technology is at is, you know, how do we create, you know, how do we create a usable product with it? What's going to work the best in the field? What's, what's the most practical in terms of rate, and timing? And in getting the endophytic bacteria into the vines?

Craig Macmillan 8:54

That's, that's amazing. That's definitely amazing. Endophytic bacteria is something that lives inside the plant.

Kristin Lowe 9:00

Yes, it is naturally there, there are 1000s of them and 1000s have been tried to see if they first of all actually move throughout the plant rather than in just the place that you found them. And second, if they are going to work against any sort of pathogens. Yeah, an amazing discovery and work that's been going on for for years and is I believe, is finally in the stages of getting to field trials and seeing how it would work. But imagine if you could go out to your block that you know is going to get pressure every year and think that you could decrease that pressure with with a spray. Never, I mean PD kills vines, that's huge. And in areas with constant pressure, it kills just more and more every year. So to have that sort of infield treatment is pretty exciting.

Craig Macmillan 9:45

Is this the kind of project that would receive funding over many years or multiple years from the board?

Kristin Lowe 9:49

Absolutely. And I don't remember when it first started. Definitely preceded my time there, but I think I've been following it since at least 2016.

Craig Macmillan 9:52

Oh, wow. Okay.

Kristin Lowe 9:52

No, it takes time from you know, discovery not only to making sure it's going to work, and then and then there's all this stuff after to get it actually implemented. But most of these projects that are going to result in a long term sustainable solution, or long term projects, you need years of data to make sure that they're gonna work.

Craig Macmillan 10:17

Science takes time.

Kristin Lowe 10:19

It takes time. I know, we're always impatient about that. But it does definitely take time.

Craig Macmillan 10:25

And support.

Kristin Lowe 10:26

Yeah, yeah.

Craig Macmillan 10:27

What's, what's something else that you're excited about?

Kristin Lowe 10:30

Okay, another one that's pretty exciting and groundbreaking is work by Dr. David Tricoli. And he's at the UC Davis Plant Transformation Facility. Have you heard of him at all?

Craig Macmillan 10:42

No, no.

Kristin Lowe 10:43

Okay. So he's doing has done something that might sound simple, but it opens up a wealth of options for future research. He's developed a cell culture method for regenerating a grapevine from a cell Protoplast. So you might remember back from biology, major differences between animals and plants. Plants are surrounded by a cell wall, animal cells, plant cells. Animal cells are not. When some of the like gene editing technology is coming out that's happening in animal cells, it's a lot easier to do, because they don't have the cell wall. Previous to this work, no one's been able to regenerate a grapevine from just a Protoplast. Without a cell wall. What this work has done is enabled there to be a platform of getting a group of grape cells together, just their protoplasts without the cell wall, onto which you could potentially do CRISPR Cas9, or some of the other fast developing gene editing techniques that are out there.

Craig Macmillan 11:45

This this is a technology I've heard repeatedly, and I'm I have no idea what the acronym stands for. And I'm not really sure I understand what it does. So what is CRISPR? Yeah,

Kristin Lowe 11:55

and I'm not going to tell you exactly what the acronym stands for either. To me, but so Cas9 is is a gene editing technology that allows for very, very precise small changes in a gene or in a genome. Ultimately, when done for plants by multiple steps later, it can result in a plant that's retained this small edit, but has absolutely no foreign DNA. And unlike a traditional GMO, that would have external DNA from a plasmid or from some other plant, this one is I can kind of think of it as like a lucky or benevolent mutation occurred. And you can't tell but it was purposeful. And and the result is a different phenotype that, that you can see. CRISPR-Cas9 gene editing is it's been out there for a number of years now. But it's taken time for everyone to develop different platforms for which it could work. For plants, especially for plants that are always regenerated by cuttings. So we don't do crosses to get new grapes, we take cuttings, we need a platform to possibly be able to do this. What this work has done is developed that platform. Where it could go it completely depends you need to you need to know which you know which genes to edit, which ones are going to reduce, are going to result in a phenotype. Obviously, what's fascinating, or what's most interesting to me is disease resistance that's usually complex multigenic. So we're still a ways down there from coming up with a with a solution. But the fact that the platform was developed, was actually a major breakthrough.

Craig Macmillan 13:35

That's phenomenal. So that's research that was done. It's gonna open the door for new research?

Kristin Lowe 13:40

Potentially, exactly. I mean, you can hear about CRISPR-Cas9 and the news happening to everything else, but but not the crop you're interested in until someone figures out that they're all different. Right?

Craig Macmillan 13:52

Right, right. What, is their other pests that have come into the catalogue that you think are interesting in that people are doing interesting work on?

Kristin Lowe 13:59

Our most recent designated past is the Spotted Lantern Fly, we do not have that one yet. Depending on who you ask it seems inevitable that's making its way steadily west from Pennsylvania. And so that's one that the Board and has its eye on for for sure. But we don't have it yet, but we're accepting proposals for it. Because we're trying to be ready. It's actually pretty rare that you can eradicate a, an invasive pest. The fact that California did it with a European Grapevine Moth is it is an amazing example. What's next right? Yeah, so Spotted Lantern Fly is probably next on our horizon is being something that would certainly be problematic if it got here, and you know, trying to stay ahead about research to understand how it would and could be controlled.

Craig Macmillan 14:52

Does the does the board fund research in states other than Oregon and California?

Kristin Lowe 14:56

The board funds researchers. So we do have PIs from from out of state and from not from the West Coast. Absolutely. The Board funds projects, obviously, they have to have some applicability to what we're, what our problems are and what we're concerned with. But yeah, there's no real state, state by state guideline.

Craig Macmillan 15:16

Right. Right. Right. Well, you know, you mentioned the review process. I just want to shift gears to that. What are the boxes that need to be checked or the hurdles that need to be cleared to get a project funded? What are the what are the criteria that the board and the written in the reviewers are looking for?

Kristin Lowe 15:31

Oh, sure. Well, I believe it's even just out there when we send up the call for proposals. But it just basically has to be really good science. It needs to be well, you know, well justified that there's either preliminary data or an excellent premise from a different crop. Or another reason why this idea would work. There have to be sound and detailed materials and methods that are laid out there has to be good experimental design, especially when you get to the field level, right, proper controls, proper replication, the stats will have to work, right, all of those things, the budget needs to be reasonable, all those sorts of things for sure.

Craig Macmillan 16:09

Which reminds me how much money is available each year?

Kristin Lowe 16:12

It varies. So it will it will depend on on the assessment. And I'm not the numbers person, I'm more the idea person. But I yeah, I have something that could find a figure for you for later. But I think over the 20 years, I believe I read that we have had up to somewhere between 60 and 70 million. But that's not all straight for research. It also goes to the Person's Disease control program treatments for battling Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter outbreaks and some of those control.

Craig Macmillan 16:44

So what is the one thing related to this that you would recommend to our listeners? How can we how can we help?

Kristin Lowe 16:51

Oh, that's a great question. How can you help. Well, stay stay engaged. Make sure that everyone all the way up the chain knows what your problems are. And and what, you know what what you really need. This is grower money, that for this particular funding program, there are other agencies out there that are simply donation only, not for profit. But I would say, so this is assessment money so it's a little bit unique. But I would say in general, your problems are not unique. And, I mean, we all we're all dealing with some of the same problems. And we have to come together as an industry to, you know, industry to help solve them. A, stay informed, work with researchers. One of the hardest things is for researchers to find field trials or fields that will let them come do some experimentation. They're always looking for industry partners, as sources of sick vines, helping to track patterns, helping to try new technology, just to collect data. Collaborators like that are always needed.

Craig Macmillan 17:57

I think that's some great encouragement. I think that's a great message. Don't be afraid to be a collaborator.

Kristin Lowe 18:01

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It gives you kind of a seat at the table. And researchers aren't growers. And so we need to have this kind of constant communication for there to be good outreach of what they found, to make sure it's applicable and that everyone understands it and and will adopt it too. The most frustrating thing is if something comes out, and people are slow to adopt it, even though it works. So staying informed about what's current, and what are what are new, good ideas.

Craig Macmillan 18:27

I think that's important. So pay attention.

Kristin Lowe 18:30

Yeah, get out there to grow our meetings and and industry meetings. And, yeah, a lot of these researchers do try very hard to do outreach. They hear you if you're if you're there and are showing up for the conversation.

Craig Macmillan 18:43

If I wanted to be a collaborator, how can I make myself available?

Kristin Lowe 18:46

Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Well, first of all, you would need to know what was going on. So you would need to need to, you know, go to meetings, listen to these people talk, you know, decide if you have similar problems. Almost all of them pass up their email and say, Look, yeah, I've got a place where I've got this, this issue going on. I've you know, been dealing with virus or I've been near dealing with Pierce's Disease. And do you need a field? You know, do you need data set? Some sort of field data or collaboration or a field site? Yeah.

Craig Macmillan 19:16

Well, that's fantastic. That's great advice. Where can people find out more about you?

Kristin Lowe 19:21

Oh, me personally? Okay, well, sure. I've been I started a consulting company almost 10 years ago, and my website is vinebalancedconsulting.com. I am largely based out of the Napa-Sonoma area, and keep in my toe in the research world because it's exciting. And viticulture is a science. That's one reason why I love it.

Craig Macmillan 19:44

It's nice to talk somebody loves science. Yeah. I love talking about science. It's so much fun. Well, I think it's time today I want to thank Kristin Lowe, who is the Research Coordinator for the Pierces Disease/Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board and President of Vine Balance Consulting. Check out the website we'll have links and notes of where to go and we look forward to talking to you again.

Kristin Lowe 20:08

You're most welcome. Thank you for the opportunity. Have a great growing season.

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There are three levels of cold hardiness in grapes and understanding these can help growers select and manage the best varieties for their region. Imed Dami, Professor of Viticulture in the Department of Horticulture and Crop Science at The Ohio State University, explains cold tolerance and new information about the role of abscisic acid in ripening.

First an overview of cold hardiness. The first level is very cold tender. A lot of these varieties are grown in California and they are not native to North America. Second, are cold hardy, or tolerant grapes. These are the native species to North America. And third are hybrid crosses. The majority of grapes being farmed fall into this category.

New research is being done on abscisic acid, a plant hormone that induces dormancy. When sprayed around version, it can help send the plants into dormancy earlier and maintain a deeper dormancy which makes the grapevines more cold tolerant.

References: * 2022-06-03 Roller Crimper Tailgate (Register) * Abscisic Acid and Cold Hardiness in Grapes * Buckeye Appellation * Foliar Applied Abscisic Acid Increases ‘Chardonnay’ Grapevine Bud Freezing Tolerance during Autumn Cold Acclimation * Foliar Application of Abscisic Acid Increases Freezing Tolerance of Field-grown Vitis vinifera Cabernet franc Grapevines (Abstract only) * Imed Dami (email) * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 * Winter Injury to Grapevines and Methods of Protection

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

Our guest today is Imed Dami. He's Professor of Viticulture in the Department of Horticulture and Crop Science at The Ohio State University. Thanks for being on the show, Imed. So you're doing some pretty interesting work there in the Midwest or East, depending on who you ask. So you work in Ohio, and you work in cold hardiness of grapes, grape vines, which is the work you've been doing for quite a fair amount of time. Now, you did that as well, in your graduate work. What can you tell us about what the climatic conditions are like in Ohio, especially in regards to cold weather, that may not be seen another grape growing region to the US. So other listeners may not be familiar with kind of the challenges there are.

Imed Dami 0:35

So in terms of the growing season in Ohio, it could be similar to many other grape growing regions in the country. However, during the dormant season, in the winter, it is different, it is much colder in Ohio. So the way we determine you know, how cold it is, in Ohio, is there is this maps, it's called the plant called hardness map developed by USDA. And these maps are based on lowest temperature for 30 years during the coldest month of the year. So they put that information together, you know, and they come up with averages, and then they divide, you know, each state into different zones based on those minimum temperature. Okay. So for example, in Ohio, we have three zone. The minimum temperature range between zero and minus 15 fahrenheit. So that is cold. And then they designate you know, these zones, like a number and the letter. So, for example, in Ohio, we have the three zones, you know, designated as six B, six A and five B. However, the majority of the state falls in the what we call six A's zone, where temps range between minus five to minus 15. So that is very cold. So, how do we relate this to the grapes? Grape vines, typically, they start to see cold damage at temperature of zero fahrenheit, or lower. So you could see, you know, like grown grapes in the majority of the location in Ohio is challenging, you know, just because of how cold it gets during the winter. Just to give you like a point of reference, these numbers, you know, of the zones, the higher the number, the milder the winter is. So, for example, in California, the majority of the grape growing region, they fall in the region of 9, 10, and 11 zones. And in those zones, the minimum temperature doesn't fall below freezing. So that's why in California, you don't hear any, you know, problems about cold damage during the winter.

Craig Macmillan 2:44

That's in that brings up an interesting point. So, you know, you say damage happening at zero degrees fahrenheit, why is it the vine damaged and cell walls breaking and whatnot, when we get below freezing? If that vine is full of, you know, water, that it's taken up in the fall and things like that? Why is it why does it need to get so cold before we see damage?

Imed Dami 3:03

That's a good question. So the, the plants in general, they have a different mechanism of survival, you know, to cold. So when it comes to grape vines, the most sensitive part of the vine are the buds. And these buds, the way they survive winter is with the mechanism that we call a super cooling. So what super cooling is, is basically, the water or the solution, and the plant remains liquid, even below freezing temperatures. So that's how the grapevines you know, buds survive those minimum temperatures. So that is the mechanism by which grape vines survive. Of course, when you have a super cooling up to a point, in general, plants could super cool down to like minus 40 Fahrenheit, which is very cold. But it ranges you know, from let's say, like I said, you know, just below freezing all the way down to that. And the difference is the type of grape variety or species which I will be talking about later on.

Craig Macmillan 4:08

What is severe cold damage on grapes look like? Again, a lot of folks outside of the Midwest or the northern United States may not have ever seen anything like it before. And what kind of economic impacts are there?

Imed Dami 4:19

Sure, the vines you know, they have this parts that are above ground, and any part above the ground that is exposed to those minimum temperature could sustain cold damage. And then because there are different parts, the one that is the most sensitive are the buds, like I mentioned earlier, the way you identify a cold damage is by cutting through the bud. And then the typically, the buds are alive, they look green, and then when they are damaged, they look brown, so it's very easy to tell, you know, by visual observation. And then within grapevines, we have what we call the combpound buds, they call them compound because there is a primary, secondary, and tertiary bud. Primary bud actually is where the fruit comes from. Unfortunately, that is the most sensitive to cold. So what that means is every time you have cold damage, the primary bud is damaged, that means that's going to become like a loss, you know, in crops. And then the other tissue that is important that could also sustain damage is what we call the vascular tissues. These are basically the pipeline's you know, in the grapevine, primarily what we call the phloem, and the cambium. And those two actually, same thing, when you will cut through the cane, you know, or the corridor or the trunk, you'll see the color change to brown, which indicates cold damage. Though the worst case scenario is not only you have the canes damaged the cordon, the trunk, but also the whole vine, and basically, cold actually could cause complete vine death. So in terms of economic impact, it depends on the severity of the plant part that is damaged. So if you have only buds damaged, that's typically becomes you know, like a more like a crop loss. Same thing with more severe damage with the vascular tissue, let's say in cane, cordon, or trunk, you lose, you know, those parts of the vine like a cane, you may lose it or the cordon, or the trunk. The most severe damage is vine death, basically, the whole vine dies. In terms of economic impact for the vine damage. Actually, there is a study done in New York, where they estimated the loss, you know, from a dead vine due to cold. And their estimate is a loss of $155 per vine, and this is for vinifera. So if you extrapolate that to per acre is equivalent to $125,000 per acre in terms of losses. And the main reason is not only you have to buy new vines, you have to replace you know, remove the vines, do the replanting, and then also, the main thing is you have a loss of production for four years. And then basically, when we talk about wine grapes, you're not only losing the grapes, you are also losing the product, which is why for four years, and that's why the number is so high and significant.

Craig Macmillan 7:20

That's a good question. So if you have a bad winter, and you go in and you evaluate buds, and they're dead, and you then go into the cordon and look and say oh, that's not good. And then you work your way down into the trunk, and look at that, is it ever the case that you will hit a spot where there's still some vinifera that's alive towards where the rootstock graft union is that you could graft on to or that you might get some latent buds to come out.

Imed Dami 7:45

So, actually, I will talk about this later on in terms of the practices, you know, in the vineyard when we talk about grafted vines, which is, you know, common for vinifera. The reason why I mentioned this, because typically here we also grow hybrids, they're not grafte. With the grafted vines, you typically hear in the east, we mound soil around the graft union. So at the base of the trunk, you know, you see this what we call mounting or healing up around the vine. And the main reason is to protect you know, that graph tune because it's very sensitive. And then also the base of that trunk to avoid any damage in case of the worst case scenario, like you said. When do you have damaged, you know, all the way of the cordon and then the trunks. If you have that situation, then you save the base of that trunk. And then you have regrowth, you know, of the vine. So that's typically how it is done, it is not common here to graft over, you know, the vines when they are damaged. But that is typically the practice, you know,

Craig Macmillan 8:48

Which reminds you something else. So is this a temperature over time kind of a curve? Or is it a threshold? Once we hit this temperature it's done or is it need to be at a temperature for a period of time before the damage really shows up?

Imed Dami 9:03

Typically, when you reach like the temperature outside, you basically have the temperature outside and then the temperature of the tissue. When we talk about the small tissue like gray buds, they reach an equilibrium between the two. So as soon as it gets cold, you know, let's say two minus 10 in the outside it will be minus 10 in the buds as well. So in that case, you know, the the freezing of the water is instantaneous. It's like immediately. When you have tissues that are bigger, like the cordon or the trunks because they're thicker you know, just like you take a piece of wood you know and then the temperature usually outside is colder colder than the temperature in the trunk. So it takes more time for trunk to get damaged. You know it may be like hours before it really, yeah. So typically here in our situation, you know, when we have some these big events like the polar vortex back in 2014 Not only it got cold, but it's stayed cold for a long time. And those are the worst scenarios, you know, because not only a damaging or the bad, but also, it damaged the trunks as well, because it's so cold, you know, for a long time.

Craig Macmillan 10:11

When we see this kind of an event, are we looking at a 100% loss across the vineyard?

Imed Dami 10:16

No, not typically. So, again, you know, I'd be mentioning this later on. The vines, you know, they tolerate cold based on their genetic makeup. So there are some varieties like the vinifera, they are very cold tender, they may sustained some damage, or more damaged than more cold tolerant or resistant varieties, like, you know, Concord, or some of the native grapes, you know, here grown in the east. So there are differences, you know, that you see, in terms of cold damage.

Craig Macmillan 10:49

Tell me more, you mentioned hybrids before and we're talking about different varieties, what can you tell us about the cold tolerance to cold hardiness of different varieties and what the genetic background might be on those and how plant breeding has addressed this problem maybe.

Imed Dami 11:03

So as I mentioned earlier, the cold hardens is actually a genetic trait. So what that means is the genetic makeup of each variety determines the cold hardens level of that variety. So it is in the genes, you know, of the viru. Based on that we have, like mainly three groups of grape types, if you want to call them The first group, what we call very cold, tender or cold sensitive, these are the group of the species vitis vinifera, these are basically the varieties grown in California. And the main reason why they're so tender, because they're not native to North America, they are used to more what we call a Mediterranean climate, you know, which is characterized by mild winters. So when we imported them here, and we grow them like in climates, like here in Ohio, it is very challenging because they're so tender. The other group, kind of the other extreme is what we call the cold hardy group, you know, or cold tolerant. These are native grapes. These are native species to North America, and we find them a lot here in eastern US, like vitis labrusca, an example of variety, like very popular varieties Concord. We also have other species like vitis riparia. So these are all native to this region. And those species are very cold, hard, you know, because they're used to the type of climate, you know, they are grown in. And then the third group is what we call the hybrid. So the hybrids are crosses between the vinifera and the native grapes. And the main reason why they develop these crosses is the vinifera basically provide the quality of the fruit, and eventually the wine. And then the native grapes provide the cold hardiness. In our industry, and generally, in the east, most of the grapes we grow actually are hybrids, because they tolerate a more cold, you know, than the vinifera. And there are several examples of varieties, old varieties like Vidal. Seyval, example of Chambourcin. And, and then we have now like a lot of new hybrids, like Traminette, Chardonel, are varieties are developed from New York program. And then we also have other very cold hardy do they call it super hardy varieties from the University of Minnesota like Frontenac, Marquette. These are very hardy varieties. And they are hybrids.

Craig Macmillan 13:28

Yeah, they were developed in Minnesota that have to be pretty darn hardy. You can see the challenge there. Tell us about your work around abscisic acid, I know that that's related to cold hardiness, that's related to sugar and other things. First of all, tell us what what is abscisic acid, ABA, what is abscisic acid.

Imed Dami 13:48

So abscisic acid acid actually is a plant hormone, it is naturally produced by the plan. And typically it is, it is associated with a lot of like physiological response by the plant. And one of them actually induces dormancy. Our idea when we use the abscisic acid is we try to kind of enhance dormancy by applying abscisic acid, you know. So we are adding more abscisic acid to the plant that produces its ow. And by doing that we could, our hypothesis at the time is can we change the dormancy like in terms of occurrence, you know, can we make it happen earlier because the earlier the vines enter into dormancy, the more prepared they are for the winter. And then number two, yeah, and then number two is the level of dormancy, the more dormant the vines, the better they do in the winter. And so when we applied abscisic acid actually did both. So while we are pleased with the responses. And then eventually vines, you know, not only they enter into dormancy earlier in the season, they also have a deeper dormancy. But then that actually was reflected later on in more cold hardy response by the vines that are treated with abscisic acid. So it was really a very positive response, you know, by applying that product. It was the first time this product was used in grapevines. And we're very excited to know by the response.

Craig Macmillan 15:21

How is it applied?

Imed Dami 15:22

We looked at the timing, you know, when is the best time to apply it. And what we found is actually, right after verasion during fruit ripening, when the leaves are still on the vines, you know, actually, the fruit is still maturing, we found that is the best time to apply abacisic acid. So this is basically sprayed, you know, it's a liquid, that you spray it on the canopy. And then that's it, then basically, we look at the response, you know, later in the fall, and then during the winter, so.

Craig Macmillan 15:56

You also mentioned a deeper dormancy. What does that mean? When is deeper dormancy?

Imed Dami 16:03

A deeper dormancy, that means the vines, you know, basically, during the fall, they began to enter into what we call dormant, you know, basically, they go into a state of like, asleep. When they do that, sometimes they don't go like into what I call, like a deep sleep, you know, and then that has to do with the climate, the conditions, you know, that they were exposed to every year depends also on the vine health, etc. When the vines enter into deeper dormancy, that means it takes more time and more effort to wake them up. And then when they are more dormant, they actually gain a more cold hardiness as compared to when they're not as as dominant. So, so that's what we mean by deeper dormancy.

Craig Macmillan 16:55

And that can be achieved by applying abscisic acid into the canopy, right around verasion?

Imed Dami 17:02

Yeah, we weren't able to do that. Exactly. So again, you know, like anything else. When you apply a product, you know, it works in some varieties, it doesn't work in others. It works in some climates, you know, not under others. So, we see sometimes this kind of inconsistency. But when we have a controlled environment, let's say in a greenhouse, we consistently see the response to abscisic acid by the plants. So basically, absciscic acid you could think of it as it mimics the environmental cues that typically the vines, you know, get from the environment because the vine, for the vines that go dormant and begin acclimating it has to have two clues from the. It's short days, as soon as the days become shorter, the vines you know, start to get dormant. And then the second clue or cue is the temperature. When he started to get colder, the virus begin to become more dominant and become more cold tolerant. So those are the two. And then we could replace those two cues, actually, by applying ABA.

Craig Macmillan 18:10

You know, actually, this brings up something that often or continually be been kind of confused about. How does the vine sense photoperiod? If the leaves are falling off or becoming cut off from the rest of the vine, is there another organ or way that the vine can sense what's going on with the light?

Imed Dami 18:30

Well, actually, they do that sensing when the leaves are still on.

Craig Macmillan 18:33

They do. Okay.

Imed Dami 18:34

Yeah, so the receptors really actually are by the leafs you know, and I think that's why probably even when we applied the ABA was more effective, you know, when the vines still have their leaves on. So that I mean when you think about like short days, you know, during the growing season that starts back in June. So it's such like a way early see and then actually, by that time the vines begin already sensing you know, this short days, they begin the process actually of cold acclimation. So cold acclamation, or we call the hardening off of the vines. Actually, it begins right when the fruit begins to ripen during verasion. So it happened like way early, you know, like in the summer, basically, you talking about July, you know, and you start to see the tissue, as they, as the fruit is ripening the vines actually at the same time is preparing for the winter at the same time. And then it will continue after the leaves are dropped. And then the vines become more sensitive to the temperature rather than the full period. So it becomes the second step is based mainly on the temperature.

Craig Macmillan 19:38

Interesting, interesting.

Imed Dami 19:39

And that's why during the winter because that is the coldest month, the vines you know, they sense these cold temperatures, and they reach actually their maximum cold hardens during the winter because they need it.

Craig Macmillan 19:51

And then it's the response to the warming temperatures that brings them out of dormancy.

Imed Dami 19:54

Exactly. And that basically happened like late winter like right now or early spring and that's why basically, the winds, you know, begin to wake up. And that phenomenon is typically driven exclusively by temperature. As it starts warming up, you know, in the spring, the vines, you know, begin to do, what we call deacclimate. So that means they lose their cold hardness, and then they start growing again.

Craig Macmillan 20:18

What can growers do, are specific practical things that growers can do to prepare for, or manage, or prevent damage to vines in these really cold areas.

Imed Dami 20:30

Sure, yes. In terms of like things that the growers could do, there are three main category, if you want to call them. The first one is what we call a preventative. So how do you prepare for the cold before even it happens. One of the main ways to do that actually is site selection. You have to have a very good site to grow the grapes, and avoid, you know, this minimum temperatures. So that is very critical. You know, especially for us here in the east. The other thing is selecting the proper variety. So like I mentioned, we have variety that are very sensitive dive right at a more cold hardy. So it's very important to match the cold hardness of that variety with the site where you're going to grow them. You cannot grow for example, vinifera in a site where it gets to minus 10, you know, every year, that is not possible. The other thing in terms of practices. And again, this is more unique, you know, to eastern US, is we train vines with multiple trunks. If you look at the vines, you know, in California, they all have a single trunk. For us here we have multiple trunks. So you could see a vine with two trunks, you know, they look like they are two vines, but they're not like one vine with two or more trunks. And the main reason is when we have a cold event, that cold event doesn't kill both of those trunks kills one and not the other, so they don't die simultaneously. So that is kind of like a kind of an insurance, you know, practice. And typically we see this in almost all grapevines. When we have injuries, you see one trying to get damaged and not the other. The other thing that I mentioned earlier, is we heal up the vines to protect the grafting union. So this practice actually is done every year, it is done in the fall, and then the vines have to be dehilled, or removing those mounds in the spring. So this is a common practice that we use for vinifera here in the east. And then the third one is what we call cultural practices. In terms of fertilization, crop management, anything basically improves fruit quality also is favorable for improving cold hardiness. In terms of during the cold event, the main thing that our growers, you know, some of them they use is what we call the wind machines. So when machines I know for example, in California, they're very common not to use for spring crops, but here we could use them for spring frost events as well as cold events in the winter, they are an effective tool. So finally, what I call practices by the grower after you do, you have like a cold event. So even though you do everything by the book, you don't have a good site, you have good varieties, you know, a suitable variety then you do the multiple trunks and cultural management, you still it gets cold enough, you know that you have damage. In that case, vines are trained or adjusted, you know, depends on severity of the damage. So for example, when we have only bud injury, we adjust pruning to compensate for those losses. And by doing that you could have a normal crop even though you lost some of the buds. So for example, if you lose 30% of the bugs, you could compensate pruning by adding you know 30% more buds you know, then how you typically prune those vines. And by doing so, you could have normal crop up to a point of course. Another more severe damage when we have trunk damage and basically die back you know of the vines. In that situation, we have to retrain the shoots. And typically the way we retain thse you know is kind of unique in the east. Like I said, we do multiple shoots or multiple trunks, it's very important to do that. And then the size of those shoots are important. We have to select shoots or canes that are pencil size. The main reason is big shoots or large canes we call them bullcanes are not favorable because they are more damaged by the cold. So selection of these shoots and canes, and how many shoots you trained are typical practices, you know, for retraining, winter damage vines.

Craig Macmillan 24:35

Well, is it better to cane prune or spur prune? Does that make a difference?

Imed Dami 24:40

Yeah, it doesn't. If your vines you know are typically prune spur or cane you know, it doesn't make difference. However, when you have injury after the fact and your vines let's say they are cane prune. What we found is it is best if you convert those vines into spur prune. And this is only when you have a severe damage of the buds. We found that when you do spur pruning, you had a better recovery, better crop than cane pruned vines. Again, this situation is only true when the vines sustained damage and like more severe damage of the buds. Then you could convert the virus into spur pruning. And then of course, you know, you could always go back to your original in our pruning later on to cane pruning, again, after like year one of the winter injury.

Craig Macmillan 25:31

All right, what, what's the best timing for pruning in a cold situation?

Imed Dami 25:36

In our situation here, timing, you know, is not critical. However, when you have large large vineyards, you know, you have to prune like over many months, we typically recommend that you prune the cold hardy varieties first, and the main reason is, you know, if you get like a cold damage, you haven't pruned you know, the code sensitive yet. So you could still leave, you know, more buds or more canes, like I mentioned, with the pruning adjustment. You leave the sense of variety last in terms of pruning, so we prune those last. That is kind of typical recommendation for our growers.

Craig Macmillan 26:09

Tell me a little bit about the role of ABA and sugar.

Imed Dami 26:15

One of our research focus, I mentioned, you know, ABA, but before that, actually, we looked at sugars. And what we found is like sugar production by the vines go hand in hand with the cold hardness of the vines as well. So what I mean by that is during the fall, when cold hardness keeps increasing during the fall, the sugar concentration also increases in the vine, in the bud and the vascular tissues. And then when it reaches the cold hardens its maximum during the winter, the level of sugar is also reached maximum at the time. And then in the spring, when the vine lose hardness, the level of sugars goes down again. So there's a very close relationship between cold hardiness and sugar accumulation. And one of the explanation is the sugars that are produced more by the vines, you know, is because they they provide what we call protection to the tissues, you know, they call them cryoprotectant. What we found in our research also is there is a specific group of sugars that we call raffinose family oligosaccharides, RFO. And these are like larger sugars, they have even closer relationship with cold hardiness and cold acclimation as well as dormancy. So in our recent research, what we found is when we apply abscisic acid to the plant, actually, that acts as a signal to produce sugars in the vine. So basically, ABA and induces sugar production. And we have demonstrated that in our recent research, and this is why we have this close relationship, you know, between the ABA role, and sugar production in the vines.

Craig Macmillan 27:50

Does that affect the sugar accumulation in the cluster? And the berries?

Imed Dami 27:53

No.

Craig Macmillan 27:54

Interesting.

Imed Dami 27:56

Because, you know, the time when the sugars are accumulating, let's say in the winter, the clusters are already gone, you know. So the vines actually, they don't only not only they accumulate sugars in the clusters, at the same time, they are accumulating sugars in the dormant tissues. They do it faster. Of course, once the vines are harvested, they do it at the bigger, faster rate, you know, so they call that actually kind of becomes like a major pool of sugar accumulations, you know. And that's how the vines you know, they have to have this reserves to overwinter, you know, properly.

Craig Macmillan 28:27

We've talked about a lot of different things. But is there one, one thing that you'd recommend to our listeners that are facing cold hardiness issues? What's the top? What's the top thing?

Imed Dami 28:38

The top thing? Wow, you know, like I mentioned earlier, it is very simple. I mean, really, in our industry, even though we've been around for a long time, one of the major issue and challenge, you know, in the east is selecting, you know, the proper variety in a given site. And that is really, it's work in progress. It's you know, like, in Europe, you know, they found this matching that we call terroir, over hundreds of years, you know. Even in California, you know, it's still a young industry. So imagine here in the east, we are still really learning about the best varieties, you know, in the best sites, and especially a lot of these hybrids are new to our industry. So we're trying to find you know, that match because really, and for me, that's I always find that the most challenging, you know, to our grower to find out, so.

Craig Macmillan 29:28

Where can people find out more about you and your work?

Imed Dami 29:30

One of the ways is, obviously my email address I could give it to you could contact me directly. It's dami.1.@osu.edu. And then there's more information in our website. You could Google grape wherever you know, Ohio and it will show up you know, it is called Buckeye Appalachian. There's a lot of information there about what I talked about. And then also it talks about our extension work you know, working with our industry as well. So I would say those are two good ways or resources, you know, to find out. In terms of information called harness. I mean, I know this is a long title. But we published you know, years ago, a book on cold hardiness of grapevines, it is available through Michigan State Extension. It is called Winter Injury to Grapevines and Methods of Protection. Everything I talked about, with a lot of details, and with more technical stuff, you know. It's like a over 100 pages book. And it is really an excellent resource, you know, for any growers, especially dealing with cold damage.

Craig Macmillan 30:51

That's fantastic. We're out of time for today, I want to think a guest, Imed Dami, Professor of Viticulture in the Department of Horticulture and Crop Science at The Ohio State University. This has been a fascinating conversation, for me. It's not an area that I really knew very much about, and I feel much more educated than I did. That's a book I might need to get from my bookshelf.

Imed Dami 31:12

Sure.

Craig Macmillan 31:13

So I want to thank you. I want to thank you again Imed. Check out our website for more podcasts. We've got many different topics and many different speakers at the Vineyard Team website. And thank you all again for listening to Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. To help you communicate your sustainable practices with customers we are bringing you Marketing Tip Mondays from SIP Certified. Let’s listen in to our latest tip so you can show your customers that you share their values.

Seasons of Sustainability: Summer While many industries slowdown in the summer, the warmer, longer days bring a boost of activity in the world of wine. We can always expect to see an increase in tourists and locals looking to explore the wineries and vineyards in the coming summer months, all while the excitement of harvest brews behind the scenes. Here are some tips to help prepare you for the busy season ahead!

Teach your team about your practices so they can make your customers experience special. Bring your farmer or winemaker into your next team meeting to talk about what’s going on right now from conserving water by monitoring soil and plant moisture status to conserving energy in the cellar with night fans. These timely practices are also perfect for social media.

We also have two great PDF downloads you can share with your staff to help them answer the most frequently asked questions in the tasting room like “What is an example of sustainable farming?” and “How often do you water the vines?”.

On your podcast player, scroll down to the show notes to get all the resources. You can also subscribe to our Marketing Tips eNewsletter to get the latest consumer trends, branding methods, and sales tactics delivered right to your inbox.

Thanks for listening to Marketing Tips Monday from SIP Certified. Let us know what you think of these micro podcasts by sending an email to podcast@vineyardteam.org.

References: * Marketing Tips eNewsletter * Seasons of Sustainability: Summer * SIP Buzzwords for Your Consumer-Facing Staff * Talking to Your Customers About Your Sustainable Practices

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All winegrowers are on the same quest to find virus negative plant material. James Stamp, President at Stamp Associates Viticulture, Inc, works with his clients to find the highest quality grapevine plants to establish new vineyards. This thorough process to find virus negative material includes partnering with nurseries that previously delivered good product. There is oversight through all stages of production from testing material to harvesting and grafting, from production to delivery, and the final selection of plants for the vineyard site. The number one tip to get quality grapevines is to pay attention to where the plant material is coming from, have great communication with the nursery, and sample the finished product for Red Blotch and Leaf Roll Three. References: 06-03-2022 | Roller Crimper Demo Tailgate, King City, CA (Event registration)

20: Dr. Mark Fuchs | Red Blotch Virus in Grapevines (podcast)

49: Stopping the Spread of Red Leaf Viruses (podcast)

71: New Techniques to Detect Grapevine Leafroll Disease (podcast)

131: Virus Detection in Grapevines

Grape Program at Foundation Plant Services

Grapevine propagation: principles and methods for the production of high-quality grapevine planting material

Leafroll 3 Virus (GLRaV3) AKA Grapevine Leafroll Disease in Washington

Red Blotch Virus

SIP Certified

Sourcing Grapevines for a New Vineyard

Stamp Associates Viticulture, Inc.

Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022

Virus Disease Guide in Grapes

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

My name is Craig Macmillan and I am your host, as always. Today we have with us James Stamp, who is president of Stamp Associates Viticulture, Incorporated. And thanks for being on the show, James. I'm really looking forward to this.

James Stamp 0:13

Yes, thanks for having me, Craig, I'm looking forward to it as well.

Craig Macmillan 0:15

So James, you have a interesting company. And you've had an interesting career over the years. But right now, your company does a number of very interesting kind of things in three different areas. And what I was hoping to do is talk about each of those individually in a little bit of detail and have you explain kind of how those things work. First of all, you folks do independent analysis and quality control for grapevine nursery stock production. Tell me more about that.

James Stamp 0:39

Our clients hire us to find the highest quality grapevine plants for establishing new vineyards. And what we do is to select nurseries that we have previous experience with in terms of delivering good product. And nurseries, where we have previously inspected and tested their increased box and the increase box, as you know, are the rootstock and science sources of materials for propagation. So we, we put together a proposal for our clients to provide the best quality of plant materials that we can. And then we get involved with discussing with nurseries, which materials are best to use. We oversee the testing of those materials, we oversee the harvesting and grafting of those materials. We oversee the production of those materials, that particular nurseries, and we oversee the delivery and final selection of those plants to the vineyard sites. And as part of our, our understanding with our growers, we are available to look at those plants during the course of the vineyard development. We'd like to be there to see how our plants grow. Once they're planted,

Craig Macmillan 1:54

A grower will come to you and say I'm planting a vineyard, I want to make sure that it's virus free, or disease disease free, I would imagine. And you folks start at the very beginning, you go out and look at the blocks where the first cuttings are going to come from the good gonna go into those plants. Is that right?

James Stamp 2:12

Yes. When I first started doing this, in 1999, I was asked to look at finished product. In other words, vines that had already been grafted, already been grown in the field, already been growing the greenhouse. And at that point, it's very difficult to have any real control over the quality of the finished product. So it seemed to me like a good idea to start with the source materials that we use to graph the vines and to make sure the source materials, the root stock on the scion, are of high quality and disease, pathogen test negative and that's exactly how we start by finding the source materials for the production of grape vine plants ultimately to be planted in the vineyards.

Craig Macmillan 2:53

Obviously, if someone's going to plant, let's say hundreds of 1000s of vines, we're talking about hundreds of 1000s of cuttings. Is that right?

James Stamp 3:03

Hundreds of 1000s of vines. Well, yeah, we're talking a lot of cuttings and in generally speaking from an increased block or rootstock increase block, you might expect to get say 100 cuttings from every mother vine or every increased block vine 100 cuttings for the rootstock. And for the scion material, the Cabernet, the Viognier whatever it might be, you're probably going to get somewhere from 50 buds or 50 cuttings per vine up to maybe 500 cuttings per vine for some very vigorous clones such as maybe Pinot Noir or Cabernet, Sauvignon Blanc we sometimes see 500 cuttings per vine.

Craig Macmillan 3:40

How many samples are you taking how many pieces of wood are you taking in? What are you testing them for and how?

James Stamp 3:47

We with the advent or the discovery of Red Blotch, it became clear that the only way to produce vines that are free of Red Blotch disease is to test every plant that is used as a source of materials for that for that finished product. So if you do the math, nurseries will graft anywhere from 1.5 times, one and a half times to two times the amount of vines per finished product. So if you have an order for 10,000 vines, they might refer 20,000 vines. So we have to test enough mother vines or increase block vines which is the correct term, to provide us with 20,000 rootstock cuttings and 20,000, say Cabernet Sauvignon buds. Let's say you've got just for example, a Cab Sauvignon plant that's giving you 500 buds per vine and you want 20,000, you want 20,000 bugs, then you've got to test 40 plants to get 20,000 buds. 40 times 500 is 20,000. Depending on the size of the plant, if its is a large established plant, we want to take more cuttings per vine than if it's a smaller plant, because viruses are not evenly distributed within the mother vine or the increase block vine. So if it's a larger vine, we might take four pieces per vine. If it's a smaller vine we might take two pieces per vine. So that's roughly sort of math that's involved in deciding how many samples we take. We are taking 1000s of pieces of cutting and putting them together into samples that we then test for a range of pathogens. And generally speaking, there are roughly 15 or so, 16 pathogens that fall on our testing list. And they include all the common viruses, the leaf roll viruses, the vitiviruses, A, B, D, Red Blotch virus, Fan Leaf virus, we also test the Pierce's Disease, we also test for Agrobacterium Vits, which is the causative agent of crown gall disease, which is a bacterium. And our pathogen panel depends on really the program that we're involved with. If we're, if we're working with materials where we have a good history of testing, we might adjust the panel slightly. It also depends on the budget, if a client has a limited budget, then we will focus on viruses that we think we'll find or viruses that we have found in the past. So but generally speaking, we have a pathogen panel of roughly 15 to 16 organisms that we look for routinely.

Craig Macmillan 6:27

And in so it sounds like you're using a composite sample, like you may do a composite sample of rootstock and the comparison sample of scion.

James Stamp 6:34

Exactly, yes.

Craig Macmillan 6:36

Does that composite sample comprise a sample from every one of the vines involved?

James Stamp 6:43

Yes.

Craig Macmillan 6:44

So when I get a result back, I can be confident that all the plants that provided the rootstock or the scion are clean.

James Stamp 6:52

Well, clean is, you know, clean is a word that you will not get anybody, you know, real scientists to use. Okay, these are all virus test negative. It's, you know, it's hard to prove a negative, but the sampling that we do shows that the vines, or the pieces of tissue that we've tested are negative for the virus. And they know and we were sampling for a wide range of pathogens, but it's to say it's clean, to say it's 100% guaranteed not to have viruses. It's something that people don't do because you're it's really, it's really hard to prove a negative. But we've we're sampling, we're sampling every plant and every plant is testing negative. And therefore, we can assume that those plants do not contain the viruses that we're testing for or the pathogens that we're testing for.

Craig Macmillan 7:35

Excellent. I think that's a really important distinction to make various negative versus cleaning in quotes. So that's the so the points along the way, we've got the rootstock, we've got the scion, is there inspection, testing, investigation as we go through the grafting process and the callusing process and the greenhouse process?

James Stamp 7:53

Well, really the first, the first step in the process to produce high quality plants is to visually evaluate the scion increase blocks before you test them. So there's no point in spending a lot of money on testing plant materials that don't look good. So we go to the nurseries that we have orders with for the following year, or the year after that. We go to those nurseries and look at their scion increased blocks in October. So we look in October 2021. At the Cab 47, or the Cab 30 or the Sauvignon Blanc 01 or the Pinot Noir, you know 777, and we find contiguous rows and contiguous sets of vines that look healthy. If they look good. In other words, they don't look like the disease, they don't look like they're struggling to grow. Because if a plant is looking diseased, or looking like it's having a hard time growing, that would not be the sort of material you want to select for high quality vine production. So if we see any issues with the vines during our October walkthrough, then we do a couple of things. One, well the nursery is usually with us so the nursery will then want to check those vines and test them or remove them, test them and remove them if necessary, to see if they are virus or there's something else wrong with them. And then once we find clean vines, then we will test them. So the first thing to do is find the clean plants, and this is done in October. Test them. We tag the plants so that we make sure we put our labels on plant materials that we want to graft. And then we see those materials getting harvested and then moved into cold storage and then we're at the nursery when those materials are grafted. So that we can see that the materials we tested and viewed in October and November are now actually on the grafting bench at the nursery February and March of the following year.

Craig Macmillan 9:47

That's impressive. That is very impressive. Yeah, and I'm assuming you've had good luck with it as it sounds like you couldn't be any more fastidious.

James Stamp 9:55

You know, it was really an eye opening moment, I think for me, when Red Blotch became a problem, as you know, it was in late 2012. And we have a lot of plant materials that we were to test for Red Blotch because the new PCR test was made available at that point in time. And it was clear that sampling increased block vines, on a sort of a random basis, sampling the plants in the nursery, the nursery vineyard that gives you the cuttings, not sampling every plant, but sampling say, even I'd say 95% level of confidence with a 5% confidence interval, you're still only sampling a very small amount of plants that are going to be used to give you the cuttings that you need. So the only way to detect the virus, which might only be present in a few plants, but if you're getting 400 cuttings from those one or two plants are infected, you're actually you know, producing a lot of virus that can be contaminated. So the only way to do it is to test every plant.

Craig Macmillan 10:53

Right. And then is there some additional quality control once they come out of the nursery for you?

James Stamp 10:59

I mean, nursery production is a very primitive craft, if you will. It's still very, very basic. It's basically putting rootstock and science together and allowing them to graft and providing good conditions for that. And what they want is they want to first of all the cuttings should be have high carbohydrate reserves. So they're strong cuttings. They actually have a good wood to pith ratio. So a small amount of pith, a good amount of wood, which represents good carbohydrate reserves. They should be grown in a way that produces cuttings that are good for grafting rather than growing these cuttings in a way that is good for fruit production. And so we want to see what's going on right from the very beginning. So I actually just gave a presentation the other day. And my first slide on the presentation says that what does every grower want? Every grower wants, or what they really want is no surprises. And that is high quality vines being available, in the right amount, on time and of good quality. Because the last thing a grower wants is to hear from a nursery when they call up and say, you know what, my 10,000 grafted vines delivered in a couple of weeks time and they say, well, we've only got 1000. So what we do, and it's really it's really it really sort of comes with the territory that if you're going to be involved in trying to produce high quality, disease test negative vines, then really in a way, it's I feel like it's on us to make sure the plants exist as well. If you will.

Craig Macmillan 12:22

So yeah, absolutely.

James Stamp 12:24

And on the one hand, we you know, we always have this provision that if we do a lot of testing and the plants are diseased at the end of the process, well, then we're not going to plant them. But we do want to make sure that the plants are available for all we can. So we keep we keep very close track on the way these vines are growing after grafting. And so we'd like to see how many plants of the 10,000, that grafted, get grafted, how many get planted up. So maybe in order for 5000 vines 10,000 get grafted, but only 7500 get grafted up. Well, that's actually a good number. But if you graft 10,000 vines, and the only plant 1000 vines up, you know, within four or five weeks of grafting that you've got a problem. And so it's part of our program is to how to solve that problem. So we need to be in touch with the nurseries right, all the time so that if there's a problem, we have time to fix it so that our clients have no surprises. And maybe they have to spend more money perhaps on testing more materials because we found virus, or it may be that the nursery had a bad take, in which case we have to graft more materials. But ultimately, we want to make sure that our clients plant the vines they want on time, and that those vines are of good quality. So what we do is work to solve problems as they develop. And you know, over the years, we haven't had very many problems. But again, I think we paid close attention to what's going on.

Craig Macmillan 13:41

And suddenly, it just occurred to me, so how many tests per 1000 or 10,000 plants when we're when we're talking about the finished product, how many samples went into, how many tests went into per per 1000, or per 10,000, or whatever?

James Stamp 13:55

You know, it's very variable. Let's say if you're, we're testing for 15 to 15, or 16 different pathogens, and we may be testing, one set of testing at least two plants for every 100 finished product. So if you've got say 1000 vines then, we're probably testing protesting 20 upfront vines, for every 1000 vines of finished, but actually 20 times, multiply that by two. So 20 rootstock and 20 scion approximately. So we're testing roughly 40 plants for every 1000 finished plants. Those 40 plants are being tested for, say 16 pathogens. So it's 40 times 60. If you do that multiple it's you know, 3200 or something like that, or whatever it is. That's a rough idea.

Craig Macmillan 14:44

Of actual individual samples, test. I'm gonna pay so much per test, it's going to be 1000s of tests?

James Stamp 14:52

Yeah, I mean, we test 1000s of samples.

Craig Macmillan 14:55

I guess. Wow.

James Stamp 14:56

We have a pretty large business. I think we were probably the The largest business of its kind that does this type of work, I think. Probably anywhere in the world, I guess. And, you know, it involves a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot of work, especially when you're dealing with a biological system like this, which is open to all sorts of climates and you know, biological impact. You know, drought one year can have a, some sort of weird impact the next year. So just like, you know, getting your fruit every year when you're growing your grapevines is difficult, convoluted, it's based on many different parameters. It's the same thing with producing grafted vines. A lot of different parameters affect the look of the finished product. In fact, this year, we looked at a bunch of dormant routings, and they were really super high quality this year did very, very nice, dormant routings this year with just very good internal approach. So not only is the virus testing and the pathogen testing, we've talked about, the other side of what we do is physical quality. We're involved in selecting the best plants that come through the propagation cycle. So for example, if you grafted 10,000 vines, you have an order for 5000 vines, you have 7500 vines that make it through to the finished product line. Well, we want to select the best 5000 of those 7500. And that involves having a good understanding of the parameters that are involved with a grapevine finished product, which include things like does it have a good root system? Does it have a properly healed graft union? Are the wounds on the rootstock shaft properly healed? Do you have good caliper? Do you have good lignification of the shoot spur? And all those, those different facets of the finished product are related to the pathogenic load of the vine when you start off. So if you if you're starting from materials that have high levels of fungal pathogens, and fungal pathogens are everywhere, in the nursery production cycle. And so the way to ensure you have best product is just is to select pathogens that have very good, that have demonstrated very, very good wound healing. Because those vines won't heal their wounds properly, they won't have good graft wounds, they won't have good root systems. They will have rootstock shaft disbudding sites that are not calloused over, they will have lesions running down from the graft union and running up from the base of the plant if they'd been developed or propagated from poor quality plant material. So the physical quality of the vine and vine and the pathogen status of the virus sort of closely interwoven.

Craig Macmillan 17:28

So this involves looking at every single vine?

James Stamp 17:31

No, actually it involves, what we do is we we sample every increase block vine that is used to produce the vine. And then we look at the finished product by sampling the finished product in terms of its physical evaluation. And I've been doing this, I mean, I started doing this in 1999. And in 1999, I looked at 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of finished product. And you know, you look at finished product, and you just like anything else, you really get to know what finished product looks like looks like. You get to know, you know what a batch of plants looks like. You know, you get to know how many vines you need to look at, to know in other words, to feel comfortable that you're looking, that what you're looking at is representative of the rest of it. And so you use that information, that experience to help you to determine how to evaluate finished product.

Craig Macmillan 18:19

And so regarding, actually regarding methodology, it sounds to me like you have a fairly set methodology that you have tested over using years and years. And there's a quantification component to this as well. So you can say we found this percentage of this as opposed to that, as opposed to that.

James Stamp 18:36

That's exactly right. Yeah. So I think if you would, I mean, you know, things have changed. And we today, we don't get to look at much finished product that we haven't been involved with, right from the very beginning. But sometimes we do and it's always interesting to do that. Because I mean, obviously there's different types of finished product, the potted plants, and then there are dormant bareroot, finish plants. Any any batch of vines that get delivered are going to have some type of defect. The question is, what are those defects and what proportion of the finished product has those defects. So for example, if it's if it's a if it's a severe problem, we'll cancel the order. If it's if it's a severe problem, but in a very small amount of plants, and we know how to identify that problem, then we can have the nursery go back and grade out the bad vines, or we can grade out the bad vines ourselves and take the good vines and get rid of the bad vines. Or we can advise our clients who maybe are buying vines from a nursery I will tell them well this is how you identify the problem in these vines by doing this type of physical manipulation of the plant. It'll tell you what's right or what's wrong with it. But generally speaking, our plants when they've been through our program are very high physical quality with a very small amount of defects or zero defects. Obviously, there's always gonna be some defects. And you really are the final line of defense is the guy who's planting the vine. But our goal is to to sell to our clients vines, the pathogen test negative or very high quality, where there will be no rejects or planting time.

Craig Macmillan 20:07

So let's move into the field. So you also conducted valuations of newly planted and established vineyards for their performance, presumably in the face of pathogen load. How do you conduct these kinds of evaluations? What kind of methodology do you use?

James Stamp 20:22

I have to say, I don't do we don't do this, as much as we used to do this was a much bigger part of our portfolio maybe 10, 15 years ago than it is now. And we used to get called out to look at vines, vineyards that have been recently planted. And say, you know, it's a two year old vineyard, and a three year old vineyard. What do we try to do is to, you know, it's important to look at the venue and at the right time of the year. If it's potentially a virus problem, then you want to look at that vineyard in October, when you can see symptoms of virus, they may be well apparent. But the first thing to do is to try and if there's a problem in a vineyard, maybe it's just performing improperly. Is to try and link any visual performance issues with any particular physical attributes that the plant might have, or they may be associated with the site. Simply put, if you've got vines that are growing properly, than those vines that aren't grown properly, have bad graft unions, or have they been planted improperly. And they've got a J rooted root system. I tried to look at the vineyard and say split into say, three into three categories: good vine performance, bad pine vine performance, and say intermediate vine performance. And trying to correlate those different types of wind performance with either a site issue which might be a soil, irrigation, utilization, fungal pathogens, weeds. And then also compare that with just the vine itself. And this oftentimes involves sacrificing vines, but taking, digging that vine up and looking at the root system, looking at the grafting. And it's actually very easy to tell by looking at vines, whether or not the issue that you're seeing is a result of the vine being imperfect at the time of planting, or whether it's more like you know, whether it's related to the way it was planted or where it was planted.

Craig Macmillan 22:09

That is really, really fascinating. We've kind of run out of our time here, I want to thank you again, James Stamp, Stamp Associates, Viticulture Inc,. There's obviously a lot of work to continue to do. And the work that you folks are doing is wonderful. And I hope that more people will start thinking along the same lines, at the very least I hope the philosophy spreads. Is there one thing you would recommend to our listeners?

James Stamp 22:32

Yeah, I think what's it's a, it's a big one thing with with sub parts. It really is to pay attention to where your plant materials coming from. To have a really good communication with the nursery. If nothing else, sample the finished finished product for Red Blotch and Leaf Roll Three, which are the two viruses that have the biggest impact on vine performance. And the two viruses that are very easily vectored in the industry.

Craig Macmillan 22:59

That's great. Where can we find out more about you?

James Stamp 23:02

We have a website, the website is JamesStamp.net. There's all our, that we have. We've written a bunch of articles about what we do. We give presentations fairly frequently. And so some of that information is on there. And we have a website and of course, phone number, email, of course all that's there.

Craig Macmillan 23:20

Perfect. Fantastic. Well, I want to thank you again, James, and I want to thank our listeners for listening to Sustainable Winegrowing with the new team. Again, my name is Craig Mcmillan, your host and we look forward to having you download us again.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Since 2016 we’ve brought you the latest science and research for the wine industry. These bi-monthly podcasts help you care for the people and planet but we wanted to address that third P of sustainability: prosperity.

We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. In a recent systematic review of 30 studies, consumers reported a higher preference for ecolabel and social responsibility labels compared to nutrition labels. To help you communicate your sustainable practices with customers were going to add Marketing Tip Mondays from SIP Certified to our lineup.

These will be short, with no intro music, no-frills episodes. Just a quick overview of our latest marketing tip so you can show your customers that you share their values.

On to today’s tip:

Are you talking about your sustainability efforts? More Americans than ever are making environmentally conscious decisions when it comes to the products they buy and the businesses they support. Consumers want to support brands that share their values and take action to preserve the health of the planet. It's important to let them know that your brand protects the people and the planet!

Kyle Coots of Ancient Peaks finds that his customers love hearing about how they utilize, benefit, and protect various animal species:

Many sustainable practices involve our animal friends! So, you can talk about:

Attracting birds of prey to keep vertebrate pests at bay
Creating wildlife corridors that provide native species with safe passage through your property
Attracting and releasing beneficial insects to keep down insect pests and reduce the use of pesticides
Planting cover crops and native plants to attract those beneficial insects
And…Bringing in sheep to graze the vineyards, thus reducing the use of tractors and machines

You can also communicate these practices by making an informational pamphlet to include in your wine club shipments or keep at the tasting room for your members to enjoy. Another great way to showcase your sustainability is with a dedicated page on your website.

On your podcast player, scroll down to the show notes to read the full article and see some great website pages dedicated to sustainability from our members.

You can also subscribe to our Marketing Tips eNewsletter to get the latest consumer trends, branding methods, and sales tactics delivered right to your inbox.

Thanks for listening to our first Marketing Tips Monday from SIP Certified. Let us know what you think of these micro podcasts by sending an email to podcast@vineyardteam.org.

Are you talking about your sustainability efforts?
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With the prevalence of Leaf Roll Three, Red Blotch, and other viruses, accurate and timely detection of viruses in grapevines has never been more imperative. Alan Wei, Owner and Lab Manager at Agri-Analysis LLC in Davis California explains how his lab is using next generation sequencing (NGS) to find new viruses. Currently, polymerase chain reaction (PCR) is the widely accepted method for testing for viruses. This process tests for one gene at time. Next generation sequencing allows labs to test multiple genes at a time and get results much faster.

References: * 20: Dr. Mark Fuchs | Red Blotch Virus in Grapevines * 49: Stopping the Spread of Red Leaf Viruses * 71: New Techniques to Detect Grapevine Leafroll Disease * Agri-analysis LLC * Donate: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship * Grape Program at Foundation Plant Services * Leafroll 3 Virus (GLRaV3) AKA Grapevine Leafroll Disease in Washington * Next Generation Sequencing (Deep Sequencing) * PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) Testing * Red Blotch Virus * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

My guest today is Alan Wei, who's owner and lab manager of Agri Analysis LLC in Davis, California. Alan, thanks for being on the show.

Alan Wei 0:10

Thank you very much, Craig, for hosting me. And I'm very delighted to be here. And I want to use this opportunity to say hello to listeners as well.

Craig Macmillan 0:19

So Alan, I want to have you on the show, because I want to talk about anything that's new and exciting in the world of grapevine virology, and a lot of research and a lot of development in industry with labs like your own. So, what's what's what's happening out there, what's going on with detection of viruses these days?

Alan Wei 0:36

There is a International conference on grapevine viruses that's held every three years. So last time was 2018, in Chile. And the second, the following time was supposed to be 2021 in Greece, and unfortunately, that was canceled due to the obvious reasons, and then was supposed to be happening this year. And by the way, is not happening, and it's postponed until next year. So as a result, we have not, the researchers in this field have not been able to meet to report the latest grapevine viruses. Just to mention something that in the literature, for example, there are two or three new DNA viruses being discovered and reported. In fact, in grapevines, but their practical consequences are known. So we probably don't want to get in too much into them.

Craig Macmillan 1:33

Maybe not, but I think this is an interesting thing because for instance, red blotch, caught everybody by surprise. And so how are these new...how are these these new viruses, how are they found, if you are looking forward, you're looking for other things, what kind of technology they're using to find this new stuff?

Alan Wei 1:49

Typically, they're found by deep sequencing, also known as NGS Next Generation Sequencing. Researchers are always trying to look for the frontiers of why viruses virology by applying these methods and find this new viruses, but their practical impact needs to be validated, study to further be before we alarm growers. And red blotch was found a similar way. With the exception that the red blotch phenomena, and the disease was known to growers for years without the assay and the way the branch was first reported, or discovered through NGS that was, you know, the "wow" moment to growers. Yeah, we do now know what is causing this read leaf in my vineyard.

Craig Macmillan 2:43

Tell me a little bit more about NGS, it sounds like this is gonna be an important technology for us, this deep sequencing.

Alan Wei 2:48

Yeah, definitely. Deep sequencing is very widely used in the research community. And, when was that, in December meeting hosted by FFPS, they reported that NGS is going to be accepted by regulators like APHIS as a alternative way of testing materials coming from overseas. Which means shortened time and rapid, faster deployment of foreign important materials in in this country, or practically to growers hands. Yeah, the technology is definitely upcoming, and we're looking to possibly deploy it for routine use. We need to hear more feedback before we really do it.

Craig Macmillan 3:41

This is obviously a very complicated technology, but like in a sense, can you explain what it is?

Alan Wei 3:48

PCR is the way that accepted method in testing viruses or microbial in general. Compared to PCR, which tests one gene at a time, NGS would allow you to test multiple genes at a time. Because through the use of small, small redundant primers, which amplify many sometimes millions of hundreds of millions of fragments of the gene, which can parallelize sequenced with that data, and coupled with information, analysis, informatics, you can extract new new information from your sample, including new viruses, new bacteria.

Craig Macmillan 4:38

So essentially, I've got a sample of plant material. And I run it through this NGS process, and it comes back and says, hey, there's genetic material in here that doesn't belong here. This is not grapevine, or hey, visit genetic material that's associated with some virus or something like that. And that's the flag that I get. And I get it from the whole picture. I'm not doing it like like you say gene by looking at for specific genes, I'm getting a kickback, I'm saying hey, there's there's a variety of things or whatever genes we weren't, wouldn't even thought to look for.

Alan Wei 5:10

Exactly, exactly. You're right. And then that gene can be not not only you find genes and not belong to the grapevine, which we considered as, you know, the background gene, by further analysis of that, that special gene, you can assign them to, to pathogens, basically, different types of pathogens.

Craig Macmillan 5:30

Gotcha. Yeah, that definitely speeds up the process a lot and makes it possible to catch things in finer net than we ever would have been able to do before. So that's pretty exciting.

Alan Wei 5:38

Yes, def definitely.

Craig Macmillan 5:40

Coming to red blotch, this is continues to be, you know, a very hot topic, obviously, it continues to be an issue in the field and continues to be an issue in other places. Is there anything new that we've learned regarding the Red Blotch Virus in any realm, anything about how it moves, its symptomology, new means of detection, anything like that?

Alan Wei 6:08

I have a list of articles that just simply published during the past a couple of years, and researchers from you know, several major universities have really dived deep into the physiology, the virology, their impact on wine quality, in aspect of, of a rather large virus. They're really fascinating. From a practical standpoint, though, the progress has been less because what was reported to us few years ago remain the same, which which you know, very well. Which means rogueing, you know, rogueing your infected vines as aggressively as possible. Sourcing for clean materials as diligently as possible to prevent any viruses infecting material being planted. And once they do present in your vineyard take them out as quickly as possible. And also, although we know the Threecornered Alfalfa Hopper is the vector for red blotch. And folks don't recommend you spray against this particular insect because it is not a very efficient transmitter of the virus. Grapevine is not its preferred host. So those information were already known through talks by various speakers in the past.

Craig Macmillan 7:33

We were talking about spread. And this is something that is absolutely puzzling to me, in years of field checking, I had never once seen this Threecornered Alfalfa Hopper. But I have talked to people who have. And they apparently are very reclusive, they will move away from you, the signs of the damage and very subtle, they do this little kind of girdling thing in the leaves. I just feel like there's just kind of be another vector. I mean, just I just feel to kind of be another vector. I mean, is there is there anything new in that world? I mean, we've identified the one but it seems kind of mysterious. And I'm thinking about the spread at the Russell Ranch, that finish and plant services ranch where we've not only identified it, but they were able to see that was spreading, attributed to the Threecornered Alfalfa Hopper, correct me?

Alan Wei 8:19

I completely agree with you. Yeah, we don't see too many of our tree hoppers in the field. Yet spread in Russell Ranch has been phenomenal. It's more like, more exponential increase year after year, since 2018. So it is a mystery. If some of you, listeners, went to the seminar by UC Davis in early December, particularly the presentation by Professor Kent Daane, then the entomologists have been looking at a number of potential hosts. But unfortunately, they either have not been proven yet or, most of them were disproven to be a potential host. So we're still in that regard., virtually in the context of Russell Ranch, it is a complete mystery. You would think through the very aggressive management by FPS, you know, any presence over vectors were eliminated. And any source of vectors were eliminated. We have but yet they see this exponential growth in terms of infected vines, which, which stopped Russell Ranch from operation, basically.

Craig Macmillan 9:40

Yeah, exactly. And I was actually looking at a table for one of your publications earlier today, and it looks like it went from zero to exponential like there was no nothing was detected for a couple of years or two. Then blammo! And I've been thinking about the same thing happening in other vineyards, I'm familiar with. And obviously just underlines how big of a threat red blotch is because we don't understand, you know, a lot, there's a lot we don't understand about it. So that means you got to sample. That you should rogue vines when you see them. But also you got to be sampling. Are there any is there anything new in the way of sampling protocols? Because I know that the distribution of the virus varies quite a bit between different parts of the plant different times of year and whatnot. So it's easy to miss it. What's the what's the best recommendation these days, if I wanted to test some lines, asymptomatic vines for red watch?

Alan Wei 10:31

Yeah, we still recommend growers to sample cane materials, because in our analysis, you know, relative concentration in different parts of the vine, the cane materials has highest concentration of virus tighter level. And we also suggest growers to consider combine cuttings from different vines to make a what's called a composite sample. Therefore, they can you know, cost, testing costs can be reduced, and their testing budget can be maximized. And of course, you know, the testing objectives dictate how high your sample. Sometimes growers want to test the individual vines to really zoom in to which vine is exactly is infected, that you can only do that by testing individual vines. But the composite testing gave you the first level of screening. To see if you composite ten vines into one sample, and the entire sample would be positive. But if you want to zoom in which vine, but you're gonna want to use positive so that you can take it out, then you will do individual testing after the first round over the course screen, if you will.

Craig Macmillan 11:44

Yeah, so the strategy would be basically like test the vineyard. And then if you find that something, then you drill down, and you can get it down to decide kind of what area where the individual vines are. That's a very, very smart technique. It's a really great idea. How sensitive are the detection techniques these days? So like, if I've got a if I have 10 vines out of 1000, and I sample and I sampled 10 vines, and I hit one of them, one of the infected ones, is that enough to show up in in the in the analysis?

Alan Wei 12:15

Yeah, definitely. So if there's only one out of 10 cuttings is positive, and that means practically you're diluting the by 10 times, it is very much detectable.

Craig Macmillan 12:27

Is there a lower detection limit?

Alan Wei 12:28

Yeah, when there's a theoretical detection limit, and then there's a practical detection limit. If we do a back of the envelope calculation, a PCR method would allow you to detect one copy without the problem. But then of course, practically, there are other considerations such as whether you know, the one copy, you can sample that one copy into your PCR tube to begin with, because you know, if there's a one copy per microliter, and the way you want to use a two microliter in a PCR mix, you may or may not be able to transfer that one copy from a sample to the PCR tube to begin with. And even if you do, there may be potential inhibitors that present in grapevine material that could potentially influence your sensitivity as well. So there's a practical detection limit, and there's their theoretical detection limit issues. But overall, you know, we have found the red blotch detection to be not a problem, because typically the virus titer is high enough to be detected, even if you compounded multiple vines or cuttings into one sample.

Craig Macmillan 13:33

That's good. That's very, very useful, very, very useful. I would love to move on to kind of other viruses because it's red blotch is not the only game in town these days. Leaf Roll complexes and Leaf Roll viruses, there's still a problem correct?

Alan Wei 13:44

Especially Leaf Roll Three is very much that the top of our problems still and because you know the vaccine is very well known. It's very prevalent. Inoculum widespread to the percentage of vines tested positive for Leaf Roll Three that are coming through our lab is roughly about 15 percent. So Leaf Roll Three is very much prevalent. There have been some really nice talks, organized before the pandemic was by the Lodi growers group. There are some talks from including from South Africa. Recently from Red Blotch symposium where there's some presentations on Leaf Roll Three as well. So Leaf Roll Three is very much a serious problem. And growers need to be very vigilant against the Leaf Roll Three from from new planting materials to management of existing vineyards.

Craig Macmillan 14:37

So let's say I've got a vineyard and I'm seeing some symptoms. I'm seeing some red leaves or I'm seeing some bronzing or I'm seeing something, and I've looked at the nutritional situation, I've ruled out either toxicity or deficiency. So I'm not thinking hey, you know, maybe this is a virus issue. Can you take samples of vines and just bring them to a lab and say, please help me? Can you tell me what this might be? I know we just talked about the deep sequencing. Is that, I'm not gonna say that technology. But like if I brought you some material and I said this has got a problem, how would you go about diagnosing it?

Alan Wei 15:14

Oh, definitely. That's what we do every day. Most of our work is focused on helping growers find out what is possible cause of a programmatic vine in their vineyard. They will send in the samples, either individual vines or composite samples. We have a panel, what's called a combo panel that covers the 11 viruses, 11 major viruses. Leaf Roll Roll 1, 2, 3, 4, and two or three viruses, and of course, Red Blotch, and Fan Leaf, Pierce's. And then also Pinot Gris virus. That is the most frequently requested a panel. And by doing that panel, we typically find out if it's a virus issue.

Craig Macmillan 15:58

That's very useful. It's very, very good to know. In relation to grapevine viruses, or just diseases overall, what is the one thing you would recommend to the listeners that they should keep in mind?

Alan Wei 16:08

I think that you already touched on this earlier. You know, one thing is, if they see problems in the vineyard, they should consider the sample and test to validate whether they're viruses or not. And if they're considering to plant new materials, they should be very vigilant to to ask questions of the nurseries, and also do their own independent homework. And the you will be interviewing Dr. James Samp in another session. He can tell you more about how he go about sourcing for cleaning materials for his clients, which are very quality conscious.

Craig Macmillan 16:47

Yeah, we're really looking forward to that conversation, Much like I was looking forward to this one. You know, this reminds me of something. You hear the word tighter a lot. And I don't think I fully understand what it means. I know that it's important and seems to be coming up a lot. Can you explain the concept and why it's important and what it means for us practically?

Alan Wei 17:09

Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this topic up. You know, you and I have been serving on AVF committee, Grant Review Committee for a number of years. And last week, we had our review meeting for this year, and the subject came up. You know, we can talk about different aspects of Red Blotch impact in wine quality, wine physiology, you know, readily and so on and so forth. If we want to contribute one single factor of all of this different symptomology, it would be the virus tighter level. The virus tighter means the number of particles in the vine. If the vine is only infected with a smaller number of particles, its response to the virus is going to be different than the vines that are infected with larger or large number of particles. In our experience, the virus level in different vines can be very much different. I'm not talking about different by you know, 50 percent, or two or three fold. I'm talking about several orders of magnitude. There is a poster right behind me, which you cannot see. But we did a measurement of three infected vines. One, with clean, non effective. Another one is chosen for medium Red Leaf symptom. Another one, it's very heavily Red Leaf symptom. And virus level, the obviously the non infected vine was zero. And then the mediumly infected vine was about one or 200. And then heavily infected vine, was one hundred thousand in relative copy numbers. So this tells you that you know, this virus kinda level concentration level in the vine, really affect symptomology as well as the vine performance and the barrel quality and obviously, eventually, wine quality. If we read the scientific literature, lots of studies report Red Blotch positive, Red Blotch negative, they did not talk about the virus tighter level. That's why we were so glad to see last week one of the research proposes to study the virus tighter level on different aspects of vine physiology and berry quality. I just think it was so so so important because the virus tighter will make it make a huge difference.

Craig Macmillan 19:39

So we may be moving from a world of infected or not, to not, to more sick, less sick.

Alan Wei 19:47

Yes, absolutely right. That is actually how we protect ourselves against the human viruses as well. You know, our vaccine does not completely protect us from infection. But it does protect us from viruses being propagated in high numbers in our body. Therefore, our symptoms of the infection in the individual is much less. And the ability for that individual to infect others are much less. Simply because of the lower virus tighter level in an infected person and similarly is true in grapevines.

Craig Macmillan 20:24

So plants and animals are obviously very different organisms and where an animal has an immune system plants do not, they do not have an immune defense system. Is that correct?

Alan Wei 20:35

Yes, you're right, correct. But they do have basic defense system against foreign organisms. One of them is the RNAi system. So speaking of that, you know, the simple symptomology in response to Red Blotch, and most of it is a total response, as a result of virus infection. The RNAi defense system gets activated. For example, the accumulation of the sugar of the raisin should be gradually, in a normal process, will be gradually moving towards the berries. But in Red Blotch, in fact, in vines, they are accumulated in leaves. Not moving toward the sugars. And the same for anthocyanins. That's why we see this red leaf. And those red color should be you know, in the berries, but they're not. They get stuck together, accumulating in leaves. It's fascinating. Unfortunately, we are still at the beginning of understanding all of this. Some reports are gradually coming out.

Craig Macmillan 21:40

And so I want to make sure that I understand kind of how this works. So there's a grapevine that becomes infected. However way. The virus is very, very tiny bits of genetic material. Unlike, unlike a bacteria, which has a cell wall. Viruses don't have that they're just genetic material. The plant recognizes that somehow. And then RNA is the material that is produced from genes, the genes or have a have a sequence and then when that is reproduced that goes out into the world as RNA. Is that right?

Alan Wei 22:17

Yes, the RNA is inside the host. And in response to a virus infection. And the defense mechanism get activated, which involves what is called enzymes. These RNA into smaller pieces, typically 20 nucleotide long. And they are, they are the what's called the interference RNA, or RNAi which inhibit the host from propagation inside the plant.

Craig Macmillan 22:48

This is just, we need to wrap up for time, but I just have been thinking about this for years. And that is, where do these viruses come from? Where, how do they, how do they show up? What are these plant viruses? What? Are they jumping from other plants as a mutation of one into another? Or...do we know? Do I have any idea where these things come from? Because it seems like it's not just a question of finding it. Seems it's got to come from someplace.

Alan Wei 23:14

Yeah, that's that's a really good question. I you know, you have biology, you have a load viruses, and obviously, RNA. Some viruses are readier to evolve, to change, to mutate. And that's why we see so many different mutants in the COVID virus family. And this is Red Blotch, is a DNA base virus, which have shown less mutation. And so far, we only seen two mutants, two clay types. And they practically they don't have much difference. As far as the, you know, the origin and the evolution. We need to have folks like Mark Fuchs to answer that.

Craig Macmillan 23:55

At Cornell. Well, that's fantastic. That's that's our future. That's where, that's where we're going. Well, I think we've covered everything. Where can people find out more about you?

Alan Wei 24:03

We have a website, agri-analysis.com. And then they could call us or email us anytime. We're here to help growers to build a better and clean vineyard so that they can make the best wine possible for the for their clients. Yes, sorry, Craig for the background noise. I think folks who are preparing samples as we speak.

Craig Macmillan 24:26

I want to thank you Alan, our guest today has been Alan Wei, Owner and Lab Manager at Agri-analysis, David California. Thanks so much. This is really fascinating conversation.

Alan Wei 24:35

Thank you very much Craig for hosting me. Continue to the great job. I'm so glad you're back at the Vineyard Team. You guys. You guys are wonderful team and doing great job. I'm very pleased to be here.

Craig Macmillan 24:44

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

View Details

Vine Mealybug (VMB) is a challenging pest in many vineyards. Growers are increasingly incorporating biological control into their Integrated Pest Management programs by releasing Mealybug Destroyers and Anagyrus Wasps. Brett Chandler, President and General Manager at Associates Insectary explains how these two beneficials help manage VMB populations.

The Mealybug Destroyer (Cryptolaemus montrouzieri) is a predator beetle. It feeds on eggs and small stages of VMB. The Anagyrus Wasp is a parasite. It lays eggs inside the Mealybug. The challenge with the wasp is that they are very susceptible to many chemicals and require more specialized conditions to be effective.

Brett describes how to monitor for both Mealybug and beneficials, when and how often to release the insects, the best release methods, and how to pair beneficials with chemical control.

References:
26: Controlling Mealybug Vectors of Grapevine Viruses
119: Vine Mealybug 101: Species Identification, Lifecycle, and Scouting to Create an IPM Program
An Important First Step in Biocontrol: Don't Kill the Good Insects
Associates Insectary
Beneficial organisms for vine mealybug control
Donate to the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship
Anagyrus vladimiri (formerly pseudococci)
Mealybug Destroyer (Cryptolaemus montrouzieri)
Natural enemies of Pseudococcus mealybugs
SIP Certified
Sustainable and Organic Control of Vine Mealybug in Vineyards: Two Growers, Two Approaches
Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022
Vine Mealybug Management- UCIPM

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Transcript Craig Macmillan 0:00

And with us today is Brett Chandler, president and general manager of associates and secretary in Santa Paula, California. And thanks for being here.

Brett Chandler 0:07

Thank you for having us Craig.

Craig Macmillan 0:10

You have been in the world of biological control for a long time. And you have seen a lot of trends and a lot of different approaches and a lot of different paths. And the pest that I want to talk about today is vine mealybug on winegrapes, specifically, and I'm very interested in the bio control strategies that people are employing and how they're doing it and how successful they're turning out to be. And some of the advantages of taking a biocontrol approach.

Brett Chandler 0:35

Well, it's actually an integrated approach, where you integrate your chemicals, as a last resort, your cultural practices as a first mainline, and then most importantly, monitoring the insects, both the good and the bad, and keeping a good track on what's happening in the vineyard. And it's much easier than most people think,

Craig Macmillan 0:57

You know, I want to shift to that one point there right away as as one of the challenges is you have to measure to manage, right, that's a common saying. And with beneficial insects, one of the challenges that I always found was how to monitor beneficial insects. I was a field checker for a long time, and I'd find lots of pests, but I couldn't find the beneficials. But we had reason to believe that they were part of the ecosystem, you know, populations would go up and down. And, you know, what recommendations do you have for any particular organism, maybe Cryptolaemus ? For monitoring what the populations are like?

Brett Chandler 1:30

Cryptolaemus, the organism itself is pretty standout, it's pretty obvious. But when it's feeding among the mealybugs, it's very easy to mistake because it's a mimic, it looks just like the mealybugs, and it can be working among there in numbers that you don't notice, unless you really take the time to look at it. What you're going to find with, say Cryptolaemus feeding is you'll find empty egg masses, where you'll see the white fluffy egg mass where the mealybug normally produces it young, but they're actually empty. And that you come to find is easier to recognize, the more often you see it. It's not that technical, but it is something you need to recognize. And through repetition, it's very doable for most most farm employees.

Craig Macmillan 2:14

And again, that's a combination of recognizing the insect itself and also recognizing the evidence that the insect has been there. Because oftentimes, that's what we're looking at is we're looking at the indirect evidence, you know, I should mention, I just dived right in. So the Cryptolaemus montrouzieri is the mealybug destroyer, and is a predator, is that correct?

Brett Chandler 2:34

Correct. It's a predator as opposed to the Wasp, which are parasites, which lay their eggs inside the mealybug. The Cryptolaemus beetle actually feeds on the eggs and consumes mass quantities of the eggs and smaller stages of the mealybugs. It's a it's a predator like any other that is not attached to any one stage, but feeds at all stages available to consume.

Craig Macmillan 2:58

Tell me a little bit about predators. I mean about parasites next.

Brett Chandler 3:01

The parasites, they're a very unique creature. They're highly specialized, they will only feed on one or two species where they can find and lay their eggs. Only the females do the feeding, the males do no feeding, they simply breed and provide no control. They are also very susceptible to many chemicals that the beetles or other predators may be less susceptible to. They also are very host specific. In other words, if there's not enough of the pest around, they won't find it and they may starve. If there's too many, they may be repelled, or they don't like them at that high density. So they're a very, very specific tool for a very specific circumstance. But broadly, the need to be used in only specific locations and times of year because they're they're quite delicate.

Craig Macmillan 3:55

You mentioned feeding. I thought the parasitoid wasps just lay their egg in the adult. And then it was the larva yes that had hatched out that does the damage. Is that right?

Brett Chandler 4:08

Well, actually, it does both. It's called Host feeding. And host feeding occurs in some cases where they're not getting enough protein. And they may feed on one because they'll find a mealybug and if it's too small or too large, they won't lay their eggs on it. But they may kill it by feeding on it or merely annoying it. Actually the Asian citrus psyllid parasitoid tamarixia, it kills twice as many by feeding than it does actually laying eggs.

Craig Macmillan 4:34

There you go, that it's fantastically interesting. If I'm trying to monitor for the wasps. How do I go about doing that? Because they're tiny.

Unknown Speaker 4:42

Very, very difficult. But again, early season, they're going to be laying their eggs inside the smaller mealybug and it's very difficult to find but once the first generation has passed, and the adult Wasp has emerged from what we call the mummy, where the egg has crawled out and become an adult fed on the mealybug. And emerged by chewing a hole just like a chick, choose a hole in a chicken egg, you see that characteristic round hole in the mealybug pupa. And that tells you that an Anagyrus adult emerge from that pupa.

Craig Macmillan 5:16

When we think of pest monitoring, and we think of densities, and we count or we quantify somehow, and then we come up with changes over time. Maybe we do our timings or pesticide timings, maybe based on that or decisions, whether we use pesticides at all based on that. What are the ways of measuring density? And what kinds of density measures do we use and thresholds to use for deciding Yes, this is really working well. Or maybe I need to do an augmentative release.

Brett Chandler 5:44

Well, for both of these, this is not an established what classic biological control where you release once and allow it to come on. The insect and the Wasp with the mealybug have what's called a dynamic equilibrium where it takes them time to bring the population down. And so that time may be too long, where the grape clusters are infested with the mealybug. And you don't allow that to happen. So you use the technique called an inundated release, where you release many more than the natural population would be in hopes of bringing down the climbing population because the key to control is actually the second generation of these insects that are released whether wasp or beetle, not the first generation. A wasp can lay 100 to 150 eggs, a beetle can lay up to 400 eggs. So that's 400 times the control in the second generation than the first.

Craig Macmillan 6:39

And how do we distribute these in the field? What's the what's the method by which both the beetle and the Wasp are introduced?

Brett Chandler 6:46

Many methods can be used. Drones are much more popular now and being used. The drone pilots are quite quite adept at getting them where they need to be when they need to be. We work with companies like Parabug, who are quite familiar with working with the beetles and depositing them quite a bit in the Central Valley forests and other growing locations and the Wasp as well. Hand releasing can if you have a clumped distribution, where you only have pockets, hand release is probably better if you have it broadly where the vine mealybug is broadly throughout the vineyard, a drone is helpful. But drones can be expensive to come for just five or 10 acres, you need to get a large acreage to make it effective where several neighbors get together and the neighboring vineyards all working together to allow it to happen. Drone pilots have to travel, their time. So to be cost effective, you need a larger acres for the drone. But at the same time, you need manpower available to release by hand as well.

Craig Macmillan 7:43

So for dropping a beetle, we're dropping as an adult?

Brett Chandler 7:48

Yes, we ship the beatles as adult their wings and they can fly. So when they come out, they'll drop a little and start flying and working towards the vine. And settle on the line, if there's any mealybug in the area, they will immediately be olfactory stimulated to search for them. They smell the mealybug and that's one of the driving things that attracts them and keeps them in the vineyard. Feeding as long as the population is is active.

Craig Macmillan 8:49

Is that true for the Wasp as well?

Brett Chandler 8:49

The Wasp is more of a solitary searcher, they like very small numbers when the vine mealybug are just emerging from under the bark or maybe on the edge. When high numbers of vine mealybug come out, they unfortunately attract the ants and the ants are the downfall of the Anagyrus. Anagyrus goes from very effective to about 2% effective when the ants are active in the in the vineyards. It is a big limiting factor of theirs. Whereas the Beatles because of their mimicry, they even smell like the mealybugs, and the ants will ignore the juveniles. Once the adults have laid the eggs, the ants will ignore them. And they can feed and control the mealybug with no disturbance from the ants.

Craig Macmillan 8:55

Interesting. Is there an advantage to using both types of organisms?

Brett Chandler 8:59

You can if you're properly timed in high numbers mid season, the beetles are definitely better because they're more effective. As far as bringing down high numbers and a little more tolerant of active spray programs. If you're using mating disruption that works very well. A recent study showed that beetle feeding is actually stimulated by the odors of mealybugs by the female pheromone and it actually stimulates their feedings. So it not only collaborates but it's actually a synergistic effect if you're using pheromone systems like the CheckMate or something like that. And if you're using trapping, that also helps you to time your initial releases of your parasitoids where you want to get them out there very early and as about a week after your first flight is a good time to plan to release. The problem is you don't know exactly when that is and that's the biggest problem is the lead time to get these insects grown. It's about 80 days for the Wasp and about 105 days for the beetles where we have to have those on hand and have started growing them 100 days before you need them. And that's that's the limitation, they don't have a long shelf life.

Craig Macmillan 10:10

So tell me more about the rearing, I think this is really fascinating.

Brett Chandler 10:13

The rearing system is actually rearing on live mealybug host, we rear ours on citrus mealybug, which is a similar host to vine or grape mealy bug, but not problematic if it should escape. So we have large colonies of millions of mealybugs in enclosed spaces, where we raise them to high densities, let the beetles go in the rooms, the adults lay their eggs, feed, reproduce, those 500 400 eggs hatch out, and then we harvest them out of the room, put them in bottles, and ship them to growers. And we've got about five to 10 days from harvest to use them so that they're still strong and vital. That's why we can't hold them over really from more than a week.

Craig Macmillan 10:55

So do you have like phases, you have different different populations that are kind of different stages, so that you can kind of hit the windows as you're going forward? Because otherwise you'd have everybody coming online at 105 days. That'd be like, okay, we got five days to do all the business in the world. Let's get them out there now. You must must wrap it up somehow.

Brett Chandler 11:15

Yeah, you're exactly right, we start logistics in January, and start talking to growers all the way up as far as Napa is down as far south as Delano, and everywhere in between. And if you'll notice, the vines come on at different times along that gradient as well as you run north to south. So that staggers it a little bit. But May and June are we're swamped. We're selling every one we can grow and working to grow more each year. So we do have to stagger them. And we do have almost 50 rearing rooms, where we have cycles coming off every couple of days. So we have fresh every couple of days. So it's continually going on a year round basis. And interesting thing this winter has been we sold tripled the number of beetles this winter than we normally have. And it's just taxing our staff to the maximum. So unfortunately, this year, we are not going to be rearing the Anagyrus Wasp, we simply don't have the manpower for it this year. I believe there's another source for those that's available. But the beetle demand is so strong, we're doubling our population from last year and thinking we're going to need to double it again to make it available because demand is so high.

Craig Macmillan 12:24

So this is really been adopted?

Brett Chandler 12:25

Very much very much. We've been doing it for about 10 years up in Napa and about eight years in the Central Valley and then scattered through that in the Central Coast. And it's becoming more and more driven by the the customers the end customers that want to see a sustainability component to the grapes going into the system. And also a big problem shifting towards the Beatles is the big problem has been for the Anagyrus has been the loss of Lorsban. Chlorpyrifos was actually a very good IPM tool that could be sprayed at the base of the vines to keep keep the ants at bay and allow the Wasps and the Beatles to do a better job. And with this loss, and not a great replacement on the horizon, people are having to use more and more than they did at the past. I mentioned about the Anagyrus dropping off, it drops about 75% and effectiveness when ants are present. So as ants come up, you need many more Anagyrus to get the same concentration in the past. And same thing with the beetles which were treating a lot more acres than we had but also more per acre.

Craig Macmillan 13:32

So there's no overwintering of either of these organisms?

Brett Chandler 13:37

There actually is. As far up as as in Tracy and Lodi area, we've had some overwinterings in most winters. The problem is the numbers are so low, that it's hard to get them going in the spring. You kind of have to kickstart it, but we do get carryover particularly along the coast, we get a lot more carryover. But the wasp, the populations dropped so low, it's very, very difficult to get much carryover with that. So seasonal inundative releases, which is what we've used in citrus for almost 100 years. We've been growing these beetles here for just about 95 years, and they're a great supplement to your pest control. You can't expect classic, practical,complete biocontrol in a crop that is not a naturally occurring ecosystem. There's not an ecosystem somewhere with 100 acres of perfectly uniform vines all coming in at the same time.

Craig Macmillan 14:27

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And so this is not a refugia issue. It's not like oh, if I just had the right you know habitat for them they would establish and hangover it's that isn't that's not really a strategy that would work either populations in place.

Brett Chandler 14:42

In most areas you can get a few but the refugia is, can be problematic. They like soft bodied pests, the beatles particular and the mealybug you're not going to get mealybug to produce over the winter they go underground or under the bark so there's simply no food available for the wasp. But the beetle will feed on many soft bodied insects, reproduce on several species of mealybugs. But truthfully, there's not much activity during the winter months, and they have to kind of settle down and it takes them a while to get up to numbers and the pests being, taking advantage of that get jump started in the spring. So if you could get caught up, but you may be on your economic threshold, and they may be in your bunches by the time you get that done.

Craig Macmillan 15:29

What is the integration of cultural control, cultural practices, biological control, chemical control? So the, you know, the classical IPM framework. What do you see growers doing in terms of that integrated approach that's working well, not just for the control the mealybug, but it's also making it possible for these other practices to work well?

Brett Chandler 15:51

Well, the control of the ants through either minor cultivation, or banding with sticky, sticky materials on on the poles and on the lines to exclude the ants. Cultural practices as the're pruning to flag where it was a problem last year, you got those black vines, you've got sooty mold residues so that it combines to catch your eye particularly at this time of year at budbreak. And early in the season. flag that. That's going to be where you're going to see your activity first. And you can have a reward to your pruners to your irrigators to weed people working. Give them the flag and they come back and show you how many they did and you buy them lunch, something like that. Anyone can notice the black stains, you don't have to be highly educated. Then you concentrate your scouting on those black spots rather than having to canvass the entire vineyard. Where the black spots are is where you're gonna see the problem emerge first. Later in the season for spread, you'll have to spend more time. But that's a good economy of time, is to allow everyone that goes through the vineyard to have a part in monitoring.

Craig Macmillan 16:59

And then I can target what I do, whether it's a release or, or whatever. How to pesticides come into play here? Because I think there's always a conflict between biological control agents and pesticides.

Brett Chandler 17:12

We found a good solution in the citrus which seems to work in the grapes just as well. Particularly with newer products like Movento, Spirotetramat, very soft on beneficials, goes into the tree provides long control, goes into the vine provides long control, is not particularly disruptive, has very low surface residue. We found the mealybug and the Cryptolaemus aren't too disrupted by sulfur sprays either. And they do pretty well there. Abeamectin sprays for mites seem to do pretty well. Some of the plant growth regulators though can be quite hard on the beetles. Like Esteem. They will impact them as well. So that is something although it's considered safe for parasitoids, it's not safe for predators. And so we want to watch those when you combine those. Imidacloprid doesn't seem to do too much of a problem with when that's chemigated in or even applied on on a surface surface treatment. We just tried to time the releases to say a week after after your application of something like that, or a few days before a sulphur spraying. By timing it allows the beatles to find it, lay their eggs, which they will almost immediately, same with the wasps. Having something blowing dust. Even if it is just sulfur dust is highly disruptive, no one would want to have a bag of dust blown on them. And so just the disruption breaks down their activity. So giving them a few days of free time to get used to the odors, detect the mealybug find them do their feeding or their egg laying before you have to pass through again. So the calibration and the timing and the synchronization between your scheduled sprays is is it's usually not too hard to do but it does take a little forethought.

Craig Macmillan 18:53

You might have mentioned this but I'm not positive, we're talking about a release in the spring. They're not additional releases after that, it's a one release per year.

Brett Chandler 19:02

Actually not. The Anagyrus are so expensive to rear the high numbers aren't practical and so many are lost for various reasons that they release about every two weeks up to eight times a year. The Cryptolaemus we do an initial release at a base number and then a follow up release if it's if it's needed by by scouting and and about 50% of the time it's needed. So Cryptolaemus maybe once maybe twice, antivirus up to eight times. So there's a lot more work involved in the Anagyrus. So and they're more expensive. So you want to make sure you're using an expensive tool like that to its best effect. So if you have ants, Anagyrus are not recommended.

Craig Macmillan 19:45

Now we talked about the fact that overwintering isn't really practical, but what things can I do during the season to encourage protect, promote the beneficial insects that I've released?

Brett Chandler 19:54

Very simply the some of the broadleaf plants, some of the lupins and things like that will, if allowed to grow near the vines, will offer a little alternate nectar and a little food if the numbers are getting low for the beetles. The wasps, they will host feed. Like I say they're much more delicate, and it's hard to keep them around. That's why the constant releases during the year because of multiple overlapping generations, they're only feeding on about four days out of 30. Of a 30 day lifecycle for the mealybug, only four days that mealybug appropriate to be stung. So trying to get that you're releasing constantly to provide some loss there at every stage of the life. So that one wasp finds its mealybugs every couple of weeks. The main thing is to keep the disruption of the harsh chemicals to a minimum, or at least timed and coordinate with your insectary. The other thing is coordinating with your insectary and getting to know your supplier. Ask them do you have you know, customers already booked for this time. You know, historically, when when you've first seen it each year. You know historically, when your bunches normally close up, and when you want to get it in there. Follow the the history of vineyard and have it in your mind when you speak to them and give them a target window as early as possible. And they will work with you. You may have to shift a week or two, like I said one way or the other because of availability, but we're constantly expanding production to try and supply everyone as needed. But it's the growth of this. It's grown 30 40% In the last two years in demand, and it's just quite a quite a tough talent to find people that know how to grow insects to hire them. There's not a job board you put up and say, recruiting insecr rearing people, come on over.

Craig Macmillan 21:37

What is your experience? What are growers telling you? This sounds like this is a grower to grower explosion. Talking to people and I'm like. So what are you hearing back from growers that's making them so excited or making them really recommend this to their neighbors?

Brett Chandler 21:52

It seems that they see results. But it's very difficult to quantify an exact percentage, but they're they're satisfied with it. We had one grower who started out and promised he would buy from us if we wouldn't tell anyone he was using them. He thought it was a competitive advantage. And he wanted to keep it a secret from his neighbors because he thought he had one up on them.

Craig Macmillan 22:16

Meanwhile, the pressure of spread from across the fence line continues. I can see that I get you know I can I can see the mindset there. It makes sense. It makes sense. That's one thing I've always loved about this industry, and I've learned about Ag in general is how kind of collaborative it is. Insane things in the wine side, people ask me, you know, oh, or you know, how cutthroat is it? And it's like, well, there is competition, but also everybody's in the same boat. We're all facing the same problems. It's all the same time. You know, I mean, we're kind of a community regardless. With that idea, are you finding, is the spread of information, is this via meetings? Is it just one to one? Is there press stories that have made a difference? I, I'm just really curious about this as a model for other kinds of sustainable technologies.

Brett Chandler 23:01

It I think it's a combination of both. But the onside demonstration, the Lodi, grape growers have have had onsite demonstrations of drone releases for everyone to see. Things like the the Ag Expo, it's been going on and talking about that Kena Daane's been talking about it for several years. But now the practicality of it is really coming forward because people were scared that it was a lot more work. And it's not really. But it is it is a different kind of work, and it is practicable. But it does produce good results. And that's why the growers are coming back year after year to us and buying more each year. I don't think they'd be wasting their money if if they didn't think it was effective. And it seems to be that they're quite satisfied with with the results they're seeing in all aspects of it.

Craig Macmillan 23:48

Are there new things on the horizon? Or things that have just kind of happened recently that are exciting? Are there other organisms that have potential or there are other methods that are starting to show us potential? Do we have new information about the fine mealybug we didn't have before?

Brett Chandler 24:02

You'll have to talk to Dr. Daane about that. Kent knows all the details. I know he's working very hard on it. And he has been for many years. As I say, I think the drone technology and the practicality of the drones is making it more practical to people. Because whether it's an insect or a vineyard, you don't have people standing around, you're usually short handed, especially now. And the drones allow them to also to cooperate them with themselves and their neighbors and work among themselves to have the drone come in and do large scale releases. And that frees up the labor and they may take a few and do some a couple spot releases, but overall they can do broad releases and introduce them to an area, frankly the way we have done with the scale parasites in the citrus for 65 years. And the innondative, area wide approach brings it down and tends to expand overall control. While it's hard to tell on an individual vineyard block or orchard the overall regional control, you'll see it effectively as the numbers begin to drop. As long as we can keep good control of the ants. The ants are a plague in the citrus as well and a huge problem for us. And we use the Lorsban as well and founded quite an effective IPM tool, and we're looking forward to some useful replacement on the near horizon.

Craig Macmillan 25:18

Is there a biological control agent for their Argentine Ant?

Brett Chandler 25:22

They've tried. The thing is a super colony, believe it or not, in other parts of the world, two colonies from 50 yards apart, will fight each other. But most of Western California is one super colony of Argentine Ants that cooperate and feed. They actually keep the Fire Ants out. Where they have controlled them. The Fire Ants come in and they reduce the control and the Fire Ants are decimated by the Argentine Ants in Southern California.

Craig Macmillan 25:49

That's interesting. That's really, really interesting. Well, I want to thank you for being our guest today. This has been great, a lot of great information and some kind of hope, I feel. It's exciting when we get biological control success. At the beginning of the philosophy, like you said, going back 100 or more years ago to classical approach, we had a couple of successes that were really, really exciting. And then people kind of discovered how difficult it was. And I really appreciate folks like you and the rest of the community that keep sticking to this idea, and finding ways to make it work, because it's a fantastic strategy, and it has its place may not be perfect, but man, it makes a huge difference. And I think that's really great. I want to appreciate that. So I want to thank our guest, Brett Chandler, President and General Manager of Associates Insectary for being on the show today. I look forward to seeing you again. It's been a few years before just bumping into you in person again.

Brett Chandler 26:40

I hope so. Craig, look forward to seeing you soon. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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The Efficient Vineyard Project uses three phases to help growers improve their farming techniques; Measure, Model, and Manage. Terry Bates, Senior Research Associate at Cornell University in the School of Integrative Plant Sciences and Director of the Cornell Lake Erie Research and Extension Laboratory, has worked with the Efficient Vineyard Project since 2015 to collect and interoperate spatial data. He knew that growers were aware that variation in the vineyard was important to manage, but they did not know how to work with spatial data. The three phases create a foundation to make data work for each grower.

The first phase, Measure, looks at how growers go about collecting data, what sensors they have, and how that data is being collected. The second phase is to Model the collected data to get the best information. And the third and final phase is to Manage through the mechanization of tasks. The program has even released a free My Efficient Vineyard software to make this process even more accessible to growers.

References: * 55: Using Technology to Schedule Irrigation * 77: Vineyard Pruning Technology * Donate to the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship * Efficient Vineyard * High Resolution Vineyard Nutrient Management * Mechanical Pruning in Concord with Dr. Terry Bates (Video) * SIP Certified * What is the Efficient Vineyard Project?

Get More Subscribe on iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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If weeds aren’t a top priority in your pest control program, maybe they should be. John A. Roncoroni, Emeritus UC Cooperative Extension Weed Science Farm Advisor and UCIPM affiliate advisor in Napa County discusses his specialty; weed management in California’s Coastal and Foothill premium winegrape growing regions. He covers why weeds should play a more important role in pest control programs, knowing which weeds you have on your property, fire mitigation, and the toughest weeds to control today so you can bolster your weed management program. References: * 4/29/2022 Steel in the Field Tailgate Steel in the Field Tailgate * 70: Science and Controversy of Glyphosate | Dr. Scott Steinmaus (podcast) * John Roncoroni * MAINTAINING LONG-TERM MANAGEMENT: Herbicide-resistant weeds challenge some signature cropping systems * Napa County UCCE * University of California Integrated Pest Management Integrated Weed Management * Vineyard Floor Management: Steel in the Field (video)

Get More Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Dr. Tarah Sullivan is Assistant Professor of Soil Microbiology at Washington State University. In this interview, Tarah discusses how the plant microbiome mirrors the human gut, the ways in which soil microorganisms can alter the bioavailability of micronutrients and metals for plants, why plants in alkaline soils can be deficient in iron when the soil is not, if cover crops can improve soil microbial communities, and what is next for her research. Tarah’s research emphasis is on linking the function and phylogeny of the soil microbiome, specifically with regard to the interactions and impacts on metal bioavailability and soil health. Whether the context is micronutrient availability in the rhizosphere, which confers plant growth promotion and crop enhancement, or in the context of contaminated systems where bioremediation and bioaugmentation are the best options to remediate heavy metals polluted sites, the soil microbiome is key in these biotransformations. Understanding the consortia of organisms and the mechanisms involved drives the work done in her lab with a wide array of biochemical and molecular techniques.

References: 28: Understanding Soil Health (Podcast)

53: Producing Compost and Carbon Sequestration (Podcast)

106: What? Bury Charcoal in the Vineyard? (Podcast)

113: Microbial Inoculants for Soil Health (Podcast)

Digging into Soil Bacteria and Chlorosis

Floor Management for Soil Health

SIP Certified

Soil Microbiology & Agricultural Sustainability | Tarah Sullivan (Podcast)

Tarah Sullivan, Assistant Professor of Soil Microbiology, Washington State University

Vineyard Team Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Greg Pennyroyal of Wilson Creek Winery and Vineyards was looking for soil moisture systems and found that the products available in the market were all expensive, proprietary systems that did not meet the needs of small block Temecula vineyards.

He partnered with Reinier van der Lee, CEO of Vinduino, to reverse engineer the technology to develop a product that would give the same results for a fraction of the cost. They have expanded this project over the last five years to collect more and more data that can improve irrigation decisions. Today, they can connect the dots between SAP analysis and soil analysis and continue to add more variables. Over collecting data now will allow them to see what things are most actionable so they can develop a system that is economical and implementable for all blocks.

Because there is more to irrigation than how much water is put on, the next phases of research will look at how water holding capacity, organic matter, and biological capacity at vineyards under different farming methods like Regenerative Agriculture impact irrigation efficiency.

References: * 115: Examining Plant Nutrient Mobility with SAP Analysis * 121: Regenerative Agriculture (Rebroadcast) * Greg Pennyroyal * Irrigation Best Management Practices * Kind Harvest * Reinier van der Lee * SIP Certified * Tailgates * Vinduino * Wilson Creek Winery & Vineyards

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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There are numerous tools and technologies to improve irrigation efficiency but by looking at grower demographics, we can better predict which growers will implement best management practices. Plus, we can learn how to educate all growers to improve adoption.

Nicholas Babin, Assistant Professor of Natural Resources Management and Environmental Sciences at California Polytechnic State University, conducted a two-year study to assess Paso Robles California AVA grape growers’ thoughts around climate change adaptation, irrigation efficiency, practice adoption, and SGMA.

SGMA, or Sustainable Groundwater Management Act, is a California state policy aiming to bring over drafted groundwater basins into sustainability in 20 to 30 years. Agencies are established in sub basins like Paso Robles to establish groundwater management strategies for their region. After discovering that the adoption of water management strategies like soil and plant tissue monitoring devices, distribution uniformity tests, and flow meters, was lower for smaller vineyards under 40 acres, Nicholas and his team looked at other demographics to determine which factors most influence adoption of best management practices. By evaluating growers’ income, rainfall, education, vineyard size, and other influences, the research found that the most important factor in predicting the adoption of water efficiency management practices is participation in the SIP Certified program for sustainable winegrowing.

Nicholas also covers the Cal -Adapt tool to predict the impact of climate change on specific vineyards and gives a sneak peek at his latest research on the efficacy of carbon farming programs.

References: * 116: Using Nudge Theory to Improve Irrigation Practices * 122: Preserving Agriculture Land to Combat Climate Change * Cal-Adapt * Cal-Adapt Tutorial * California Climate & Agriculture Network (CalCAN) * Nicholas Babin, Assistant Professor of Natural Resources Management and Environmental Sciences at California Polytechnic State University * Sustainable Groundwater Management Act (SGMA) * SIP Certified * State Water Efficiency and Enhancement Program (SWEEP) * Vineyard-specific climate projections help growers manage risk and plan adaptation in the Paso Robles AVA

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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While many growers are familiar with the Western Leafhopper, they may not know as much about the Virginia Creeper Leafhopper. Houston Wilson, Assistant Cooperative Extension Specialist in the Department of Entomology at UC Riverside and Director of UC Organic Agriculture Institute has been studying the Virginia Creeper Leafhopper and potential biological controls.

Leafhoppers are pierce and suck feeders. The insect removes small amounts of plant material causing a stippling effect on the leaf. This damage reduces the photosynthetic capacity of the vine and can reduce yields.

The Virginia Creeper Leafhopper was recently introduced into the North Coast of California where it was discovered that it has no biological controls. Additionally, its life stages are different from the more well-known Western Leafhopper so growers must utilize different management practices to control the pest.

References: * February 18, 2022 | Avoiding Winter Kill in Young Vineyards Webinar * Cal-West Rain * Houston Wilson * Landscape diversity and crop vigor influence biological control of the western grape leafhopper (Erythroneura elegantulaOsborn) in vineyards * Review of Ecologically-based Pest Management in California Vineyards * SIP Certified * UC IPM Leafhoppers

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Consumer demand for transparency and sustainability of their food system is leading to more and more agrochemical restrictions to address concerns for pollinators, noenicitinoids, and drift. Additionally, ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) investors are putting pressure on the chemical industry to improve their metrics. Pam Marrone, Founder and CEO of Marrone Bio Innovations outlines the market, status, and potential for biologicals in this excerpt from our 2020 Sustainable Ag Expo.

Bringing a new pesticide to market can cost upwards of 300 million dollars and takes an average of 21 years. These challenges have big companies looking at new technologies like biologicals. Bringing a biological to market costs five to 10 million and can be accomplished in three to four years.

Growers are seeing that using an integrated solution creates a better final product. Biologicals offer new modes of action, the ability to spray up until harvest, and short reentry times. Plus, they can allow growers to improve soil health and reduce greenhouse gasses.

References: * 87: Developing New Winegrape Varieties * 94: Effective Vineyard Spraying (Rebroadcast) * 122: Preserving Agriculture Land to Combat Climate Change * Pesticidal natural products – status and future potential * Marrone Bio * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo * Tailgate | 1/14/2022 | Salinity 101 - Science and Management of Increasing Salinity in a Drier Climate

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Maintaining agricultural land can be a solution to climate change. Renata Brillinger, Executive Director at California Climate & Agriculture Network (CalCAN), and her team are working to incentivize sustainable practices like composting, cover crops, and solar pumps at farms. They promote four grant programs that help farmers and ranchers have a positive impact on the planet and their bottom line.

The first is to prevent urban sprawl by funding easements to maintain working farmland. The second is to increase on-farm water use efficiency which also reduces energy consumption. The third is to reduce methane emissions in livestock operations by collecting dry manure. And the fourth is to fund healthy soils programs to improve the organic content in soil and reduce the need for synthetic inputs.

As of December 2022, there are more than 200 million dollars in grant funding coming online. It is important that farmers apply for funding not only to execute their own projects but to ensure that these programs continue to be funded in the future.

References: * 28: Understanding Soil Health * California Climate & Agriculture Network (CalCAN) * CalCAN Newsletter * California's Healthy Soils Initiative * SIP Certified * State Water Efficiency and Enhancement Program (SWEEP) * Top 5 Soil Health Resources

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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David R. Montgomery defines regenerative agriculture as leaving the land better off and more fertile as a consequence of cultivation. David studied geology at Stanford University before earning his Ph.D. in geomorphology at UC Berkeley. Today he teaches at the University of Washington where he studies the evolution of topography and how geological processes shape landscapes and influence ecological systems.

In this research, he has defined three principles to build soil fertility; minimal disturbance, cover cropping and growing a diversity of crops. David has studied the success of these principles in agricultural systems around the world, from subsistence farmers to large commodity crops in North America. Healthy soils support more crop growth, have less erosion, and even look and smell healthier.

The author of three books, David is a wealth of information on how soil life impacts plant productivity.

References: * 91: Carbon Sequestration (Podcast) * @dig2grow (Twitter) * Dig2Grow.com * Floor Management for Soil Health * Dirt the Erosion of Civilizations * Growing a Revolution * Sustainable Ag Expo * SIP Certified * The Hidden Half of Nature

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

The Hidden Half of Nature: The Microbial Roots of Life and Health

Growing a Revolution: Bringing Our Soil Back to Life

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Imagine improving both the efficiency and safety of your team with autonomous drone vineyard spraying. That is exactly what David Goldfarb and the team at Clos de la Tech are trialing in their vine rows. Although this technology has been used in Japan for a number of years, it is new to the United States. Initially, they looked to drones as a way to scout for pests. Spraying was limited due to the small capacity of the machines. Then an advancement inspired by COVID stadium sanitation standards changed the game. A tethering system was created to attach the drone to a full-sized tank with a lightweight hose.

Since FFA standards are still being written for drone spray applications, trials were conducted with water. The Clos de la Tech team found that coverage could be more than sufficient and they look forward to testing this technology more in the future.

References: * 51: Effective Vineyard Spraying * Clos de la Tech * Drone Technology to Spray Vineyards Gains Popularity * Pesticide Application Technology at Cornell * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo * Waste Not, Want Not!: Recent advances in technology for the precise spraying of pesticides (Video)

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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The first pillar of any successful IPM (Integrated Pest Management Program) is to know the pest you want to manage. Emily Symmes, Entomologist and Technical Field Manager at Suterra, addresses the basics of vine mealybug (VMB) in grapes in this expert from the 2020 Sustainable Ag Expo.

VMB are phloem eaters, piercing the trunk, canes, and berry clusters and vectoring leafroll-associated viruses. In high populations, they will weaken the vines and can cause vine decline and death. Their rapid development time and often overlapping generations make using selective pesticides challenging because multiple lifecycles are active at one time. Adding to the management challenge, VMB spread easily by machinery, workers, and birds.

Proper species identification is vital to understand biologies and seasonal cycles of the VMB. Monitoring should be managed with both pheromone trapping and scouting throughout the year. Pheromone traps are most effective when placed at the vineyard entrance since VMB come in on machinery. Additional traps can be placed in the center of the block. Visual scouting should include looking for active VMB under the bark, in leaves, and in clusters, as well as signs of their existence including honeydew and ants.

Listen in to learn more about VMB identification and management.

References: * 26: Controlling Mealybug Vectors of Grapevine Viruses * 49: Stopping the Spread of Red Leaf Viruses * An Important First Step in Biocontrol: Don't Kill the Good Insects * Biology and Management of Mealybugs in Vineyards * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo * Sustainable and Organic Control of Vine Mealybug in Vineyards: Two Growers, Two Approaches * Suterra * UC Pest Management Guidelines Vine Mealybug * Vine Mealybug vs. Grape Mealybug Identification

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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UV lamps have been used in the medical field, food processing, and sterilization for 75 years but application on plant disease management only began in the 1990s. UV light is a natural component of sunlight. The most harmful wavelengths like UVC are screened out by our ozone layer. DNA damaging UVB does reach the surface, however, most organisms can utilize blue light to repair the damage.

David Gadoury, Plant Pathologist at Cornell University, is part of a large team of international researchers testing this technology on a variety of crops. Because there can be significant differences in environments, pest pressure, and times of year crops are impacted, it is important to trial this methodology globally. Powdery mildew microorganisms live in a sunlight-filled world so they use the sun’s natural blue light to repair UV damage.

More recently, scientists found that UV light for pest management is much more effective when used at night when microorganisms cannot employ the repair process. So far, trials have found that UV light is most effective against powdery mildews. In the best treatment scenarios, control is on par with the best available fungicides. And now, UV light treatments are being paired with autonomous robots, providing potentially even greater efficiencies to growers.

References: * 2: The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management * 79: Grapevine Fungal Diseases * CleanLight * David Gadoury | mailto:dmg4@cornell.edu * Light and Plant Health * Robots armed with UV light fight grape mildew * SAGA Robotics * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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How can values, beliefs, and attitudes around irrigation improve water efficiency? That is exactly what a recent California Department of Water Resources (DWR) grant project aimed to discover. Grant recipient, Vineyard Team, worked with 59 growers over three years to conduct irrigation-related behavior interviews, Distribution Uniformity evaluations, and determine if continued interaction (nudges) with the grower would increase the adoption of irrigation best management practices in vineyards.

Every participant received a free DU and personalized report of recommendations so the researchers could track which improvements, like replacing plugged emitters, were implemented. Participants were divided into two groups, some with no contact beyond the initial DU test. The other half received regular nudges through phone calls and email calls to see if they had questions and to provide technical information.

Listen in to learn how nudges change irrigation efficiency.

References: 108: Using Satellite Data for Irrigation Scheduling

101: Sub-surface Micro-irrigation in Vineyards

Drip Irrigation Systems: Common Problems and Fixes

Irrigation Best Management Practices

Irrigation System Maintenance Tips - English

Irrigation System Maintenance Tips - Spanish

Irrigation Playlist – YouTube

SIP Certified

Sustainable Ag Expo

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Plant SAP analysis gives farmers insight into how the plant can take up and mobilize nutrients. Traditional tissue testing is usually done at the top of the plant, sampling only the youngest leaves. SAP Analysis is actually a pair of tests, comparing nutrients in young and old leaves to see what is being taken up today and how the nutrients are moved around. Test results compare levels in young and old leaves across 24 different nutrients. One important comparison is Nitrogen efficiency, so the farmer can see how much Nitrogen is actually being taken up by the plant and calculate a cost analysis. Learn more about SAP Analysis and also some fascinating research about the relationship between silica, iron, and aluminum in grapevines.

References: * 72: Soil Microbes and Nutrient Availability * 113: Microbial Inoculants for Soil Health * Jenny Garley on LinkedIn * Making Nitrogen & Potassium Fertilizer Decisions in the Vineyard * NEWAGE Laboratories * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Numerous vineyards have utilized sheep and goats for grazing but most only during the winter. Kelly Mulville was on a mission to design a vineyard for year-round grazing to restore the ecosystem with livestock. The challenge was to find a vineyard design where the animals could not eat the vines. In a partnership with Paicines Ranch in California, Kelley and the team utilized the Watson Training System which holds the cordon wire at 66 inches. The vineyard incorporated nine grape varieties and trialed year-round sheep grazing last summer with great success. Using the sheep will eliminate all suckering and tipping, dramatically reduce fertilization, decrease irrigation use, and lower labor costs. Listen in as Kelley explains the trial process for tips on how to set up your own vineyard for year-round grazing.

References: * 107: How Grazing Sheep Can Benefit Your Vineyard (Podcast) * 113: Microbial Inoculants for Soil Health (Podcast) * Grazing Vineyards * Paicines Ranch * Savory Holistic Management * SIP Certified * Sustainable Ag Expo * Watson Training System for Bunch Wine Grapes * Virtual Viticulture Academy

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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A healthy soil has hundreds of different species of microbes while a depleted one may only have one dozen. A number of common viticulture practices are not conducive to a healthy soil biology so Dave Olson of Sustainable Growing Solutions is looking at how we can improve soil quality with microbes, ultimately improving plant quality. This process can be foliar with soil inoculations over time. Microbes do not colonize all at once so it important to add them over a period of time so that some will pave the way for others. Dave discusses the best time for applications and the importance of having an objective before trialing inoculants.

References: * 72: Soil Microbes and Nutrient Availability * 112: How Deficit Irrigation Impacts Soil Quality * David Olson | dolson@sgs-ag.com | (916) 284-9706 * SIP Certified * Sustainable Growing Solutions (website coming soon) * Top 5 Soil Health Resources * Vineyard Team's ‘Juan Navarez Memorial’ Scholarship * Water and Nitrogen Use Webinar

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Deficit irrigation is used in winegrape production to keep berries small and enhance the flavor of wines, particularly with reds. Joan Davenport, Emerta Professor of Soil Sciences at Washington State University says to get an accurate measure of soil moisture, you need to focus monitoring where the roots are. These measurements are ideally taken about 15 to 20 inches from the vines. Deficit irrigation can lead to a buildup of salt and sodium, negatively impacting soil quality. Salts cause root burning and damage to root systems, hurt microorganisms, and prevents calcium uptake. Joan talks about her research project to compare soil quality between Washington vineyards irrigated with snow melt (surface water) versus ground water (water from wells).

References: * 72: Soil Microbes and Nutrient Availability * Diagnosis and Improvement of Saline and Alkali Soils * Irrigated Soil Management * Irrigation Best Management Practices * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team's ‘Juan Navarez Memorial’ Scholarship * Washington State University Dept. of Crop and Soil Sciences * Water and Nitrogen Use Webinar

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Every vineyard has a portion of the property that is non-productive, but are there ways to maximize the benefits of this land? Fintan du Fresne, General Manager and Winemaker for both Chamisal Vineyards and Maine Wines and Christian Rodriguez, Assistant Vineyard Manager at Chamisal Vineyards found the answer to this question with a Miyawaki Mini-forest. Conceived by Japanese botanist Akira Miyawaki, these mini-forests can take be developed in spaces as small as 30 square yards.

Development of a coastal oak woodland at Chamisal Vineyards began by excavating three feet down, adding mulch and compost, and planting 400 to 500 native plants at a high density. This process enables the forest to establish three to four times as rapidly as it would in a natural setting. The established forest will not only proffer a habitat for local fauna but, also provide carbon sequestration. The next phase of this project includes a partnership with Cal Poly State University to pipe C02 from the winery into the forest to see how much carbon sequestration is possible.

References: * 92: Regenerative Agriculture * 102: Effects of Landscape Management on Pest Control in Vineyards * Akira Miyawaki * Chamisal Vineyards * Conservation Plan Template * Malene Wines * Las Pilitas Nursery * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team's ‘Juan Navarez Memorial’ Scholarship

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Vineyard development begins with the soil. Steve Vierra, Director of Vineyard Operation at Derby Wine Estates and Certified Professional Soil Scientist, has developed many vineyards since the 1990s and always begins with a site evaluation to determine what is actually plantable. This includes a deep dive into all aspects of the prospective vineyard including climate, rain fall, aspect, slope, rootstock, soil types, and best varieties to create a self-sustaining vine. The goal is to develop a vineyard that is easy to farm around natural resources and the goals of the business.

Steve covers how he evaluates soils with both pits and physical property tests for micro- and macronutrients. Learn about ideal rootstocks and clones for different soil types, plus Steve’s favorite development projects in Paso Robles California.

References: * 72: Soil Microbes and Nutrient Availability * 107: How Grazing Sheep Can Benefit Your Vineyard * Biochar: Soil Amendment for Improved Vine Performance and Long-term Carbon Sequestration * Derby Wine Estates * Making Nitrogen & Potassium Fertilizer Decisions in the Vineyard * SIP Certified * Steve Vierra * Vineyard Team's ‘Juan Navarez Memorial’ Scholarship

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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The introductory voice and producer of this podcast, Beth Vukmanic, joined Jaime Lewis of CONSUMED in the much-awaited season nine. The CONSUMED podcast stokes candid conversation about life and flavor, ten episodes at a time. Jaime interviews eaters, drinkers, thinkers and makers across California and especially at its heart, the Central Coast. And, this past year, CONSUMED hit the top 40 podcasts about food and wine in the United States. Enjoy this rebroadcast.

An Introduction from the CONSUMED podcast:

When Beth Vukmanic came on the podcast, I was certain we'd talk only about her work with the Vineyard Team, an organization based in Atascadero, California that promotes sustainable winegrowing throughout the U.S. But Beth surprised me with all her many special fun facts: she was born in a moving VW Rabbit on a freeway in Detroit, she plays the harp professionally, and — here’s the biggie — she is a fitness superstar. No really. Beth is a hugely popular Instagram fitness instructor with a following like you wouldn’t believe. She’s kind, sharp, thoughtful and fun, and I liked her immediately. Listen to Beth talk about her background in agriculture, her longtime commitment to sustainable winegrowing, and how she likes to eat when getting home from a big HIIT workout.

References: * Bethercize * CONSUMED: a podcast * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team Staff * Vineyard Team's ‘Juan Navarez Memorial’ Scholarship

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There is no doubt that water is a precious resource, particularly in drought prone regions like California. It is very important for growers to measure soil moisture and there are a bevy of technological devices available to utilize. From soil moisture probes to pressure bombs, these tools are helpful but, they only provide data on once specific area at a time and many are time consuming to use.

Today, there is a lot of free satellite data available and that data is being captured by Irriwatch. Founder and CEO Wim Bastiaanssen is an international academic leader and is engaged as a Visiting Professor at Delft University of Technology (TU Delft). He holds a Ph.D. degree in crop-soil-atmospheric physics from Wageningen University.

Having grown up on a potato farm, Wim aims to provide practical guidelines for irrigation management. The IrriWatch software aggregates data from 10 satellites to provide daily moisture measurements down to the pixel, allowing growers to optimize irrigation water applications in a world of dynamical weather, soil and crop processes.

References: * 67: Impacts of Climate Change on Wine Production (Podcast) * 101: Sub-surface Micro-irrigation in Vineyards (Podcast) * How Thermal Remote Sensing Helps Farmers to Optimize their Irrigation (Video) * Irrigation Best Management Practices * Irrigation System Maintenance Tips - English * Irrigation System Maintenance Tips - Spanish * IrriWatch * info@irriwatch.com * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team's ‘Juan Navarez Memorial’ Scholarship

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Using sheep to graze vineyards has many benefits including lowering the carbon footprint, fewer tractor passes, and reduced herbicide use. Kelsey Brewer, Ph.D. Candidate at the University of California at Davis has been researching how these living lawnmowers impact nutrient and energy flows in the eco system.

When tractors were replaced by sheep, the research team found that vineyards had 1.3 times more organic matter and nitrogen plus twice as much available soil nitrogen in the soil. Grazed vineyards have very high microbial activity, improved infiltration, and porosity. Of course, sheep are not a good fit for every vineyard system. Their benefits are not seen in ranches where heavy tillage is still used. While a manager could establish their own flock, most grazing is contracted with experienced professionals who can intensively and efficiently graze in vineyard.

References: * 30: Managing the Landscape Around the Vineyard (Podcast) * 106: What? Bury Charcoal in the Vineyard? (Podcast) * Conservation Plan Template * Fibershed * Gaudin Lab UC Davis * Kelsey Brewer on Twitter @k_m_brewer * SIP Certified * Vineyard Development Ecological Considerations * Vineyard Team's Juan Navarez Memorial Scholarship

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What, bury charcoal in the vineyard? Biochar is a specialized form of charcoal made from waste woody biomass at high temperature in the absence of oxygen. We know soil organic matter is important for the health of any crop. It turns out the use of charwood (biochar) goes back to ancient civilizations and it can be found naturally in soils from fire events.

Doug Beck, Science Officer at Monterey Pacific in Monterey California, recently conducted a four-year trial to test the impacts of biochar and compost as soil amendments on wine grape growth, water use, yield, and water quality. This is an excerpt from his presentation at the Sustainable Ag Expo in November 2020. This fascinating trial showed that the addition of biochar and compost to the soil improves nutrient efficiency, improves water holding capacity, and positively impacted yields.

References: * 56: Conservation Burning and Biochar (Podcast) * “Biochar increases vineyard productivity without affecting grape quality: Results from a four years ﬁeld experiment in Tuscany” | Scholarly article * California Biochar Association * “The Conservation Burn Technique” | Vineyard Team Technical Article * SIP Certified * Sonoma Biochar Initiative * Sustainable Ag Expo * Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship

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Higher education is important to many students but paying for college can be challenging. The Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship helps college students whose parents work in members' vineyards and wineries achieve their dreams.

The Smiths of Saxum and James Berry Vineyard, know that our people are vital to sustainability. Justin Smith tells the story of Juan Nevarez, a person instrumental in their wine business for over three decades, and their inspiration to donate to the scholarship fund in his name.

Pebble Smith says, “The year is 1985 and we’re looking at our first harvest at James Berry Vineyard. Our family, alone, has deer fenced, laid out, staked, and planted 35 acres of Chardonnay and Pinot Blanc. We know there is no way we can get the grapes off and to the winery just using our family and any friends still willing to help us. Our very first thought was to call our friend Juan who was then helping the Baldwins develop their vineyard and winery. He looked at us pleading for help and said ‘no problema, I’ll be there before the sun’s up with enough men to get all your grapes off before noon.’ He was true to his word and our first harvest was the exciting start for two successful careers: our fledgling vineyard and Juan’s labor contracting business. Thirty-five harvests later and Juan and now his family, are still supplying us with skilled and trusted vineyard laborers. I know this is not the end for our relationship with Nevarez Labor but Juan’s passing has left his family and ours with a big hole in our hearts. To help heal that hole we have put forward money for the Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship Fund and we know that would have made him very happy. So in honor of Juan, Terry, Justin, Heather and I would like to honor all the Nevarez family for being such an integral part of our community.”

The Vineyard Team is grateful for the Smith family’s donation which helps us reach our goal to raise $25000 in 2021. You too can make a life changing impact on a student’s future. Donate at vineyardteam.org/scholarship.

References: * Donate to the Vineyard Team Scholarship

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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In 2008 the oversupply of Sauvignon Blanc coupled with the financial crisis lead to trialing shaking to remove berries in New Zealand for the very first time. A few years later, the New Zealand Winegrowers Society funded a three-year grant to test the impacts of shaking on dropping fruit, wine quality, and botrytis. Mark Allen of Allen Vineyard Advisory explains that because shaking the vine four to six weeks after fruit set does cause some damage to the canopy and berries, pathologists assumed that the shaken vines would have a higher incidence of botrytis. They were surprised that they did not. In fact, the botrytis levels were markedly less in the shaken vines than the control. Trials have found that shaking reduces botrytis at harvest by at least 50 percent plus the cost is significantly less than dropping fruit. With increased resistance to chemical controls, good wine quality, and cost efficiency, shaking shows a lot of promise.

References: * 1: Bunch Rot with Larry Bettiga (podcast) * Bunch Rot Disease Management * Botrytis Bunch Rot UC Pest Management Guidelines * Mark Allen | markallen@outlook.co.nz * Mechanical Shaking for Rot Reduction * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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The 2020 pandemic showed many brands how social media can be an important means of communication. Heather Daenitz of Craft & Cluster helps wines brands tell their grape to glass story with photography and social media. Keeping up with latest trends and algorithms can be challenging. At the end of the day, Instagram wants to keep people on the platform as long as possible. If you have good content the algorithm will show your posts to more people, benefiting both your brand awareness and Instagram. A few years ago, a common tactic was to post multiple times a day. Today, it is more important to post less frequently with more intention. Social media is a great way to share a brands values and to diversify both marketing channels.

References: * 4/22/21 Social Media & Sustainability Online Workshop * 85: It‘s Time for New Wine Sales Strategies * 83: Sustainability: An Advantage in any Market * 82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer * Coastal Tractor * Craft & Cluster * Craft & Cluster Instagram * SIP Certified * State of the Wine Consumer 2021: Top 5 Trends for 2021 * Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship * Wine Customer Segments and How to Talk SIP with Them

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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The small Priorat region in Spain has a fascinating history dating back to the Moors in the 8th century, to the birth of its wine production for a local monastery in the 1100s to the near complete devastation of its vineyards by phylloxera in the late 19th century. Replanting began in earnest in the 1950s and top reviews by Robert Parker in the 2000 helped solidify this area as a top wine region in Spain.

Local Perinet Winemaker Antoni Sanchez-Ortiz notes how years of abandonment has lead nature reestablish its place among the vines, hazelnut, olives, and forest. To maintain this balance of nature and winemaking, the winery has established an ESG (Environmental, Social, Governance) initiative. The lack of electricity means that current production relies on generators. Perinet’s Environmental project is to convert the property to 100 percent solar power. Socially, they provide a workplace that takes responsibility for their footprint, an organization their staff can feel proud to work for. They take Governance personally, becoming a brand that leads the way, setting an example of what the rest of the region can do.

References: * 33: Sustainable, Lake Friendly Farming in Michigan with WaterFire Vineyards * Grape Phylloxera UC Pest Management Guidelines * In Search of the Best Wines from Priorat * Perinet * SIP Certified * Suterra * Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship

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The resource concentration hypothesis looks at how the advent of modern agriculture as monoculture created an environment where pests can grow faster because their resource, the crop, is more prevalent. Biodiversity is fundamental for pest management and Daniel Paredes, Postdoctoral Fellow at the University of California Davis, in the department of Wildlife Fish and Conservation Biology, is studying how sustaining natural habitat around vineyards can increase biodiversity.

Promotion of natural habitat impacts vineyards in two different ways; 1) the promotion of natural enemies and 2) by diminishing the pest population. Speaking about his latest research project in Spain, Daniel says, “At harvest, we found pest outbreaks increased four-fold in simplified, vineyard-dominated landscapes compared to complex landscapes in which vineyards are surrounded by semi-natural habitats.” This study shows that conserving and restoring natural vegetation creates a more stable environment.

References: * Ceres Imaging * Diverging Effects of Landscape Factors and Inter-Row Management on the Abundance of Beneficial and Herbivorous Arthropods in Andalusian Vineyards (Spain) * Effects of vegetation management intensity on biodiversity and ecosystem services in vineyards: A meta‐analysis * Landscape Simplification Increases Vineyard Pest Outbreaks and Insecticide Use * SIP Certified * Tillage intensity or landscape features: What matters most for wild bee diversity in vineyards? * UC Davis Study: How Landscape Simplification Affects Pest Outbreaks * Vineyard Team Events

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While grape production does not require extensive water use and the majority of vineyards in the Pacific North West are drip irrigated, drought conditions in recent years have led growers to seek more efficiencies to reduce water use. Pete Jacoby, Professor of Crops and Soil Sciences at Washington State University knows that in a traditional drip irrigated vineyard, water is lost through evaporation plus plants loose about 90 percent of the water they take up through transportation. Most sub-surface micro-irrigation is done with buried lines which are easily clogged in fine silty loam soils or damaged by rodents. So, he is partnering with commercial grower sto test a different sub-surface irrigation system - vertically placed PVC pipe.

By placing pipes at one, two, three, and four feet, the experiment tested water reduction from 60 percent all the way down to 15 percent of what was typically delivered through above ground irrigation. Researchers discovered that this changed the vine root architecture from 18 inches all the way down to two and three feet. Plus, grape quality could be sustained with significantly lower water applications. Using these promising results, Pete is now testing white varieties and how sub-surface micro-irrigation impacts nutrient management.

References: * 63: Evaluate and Maintain Your Irrigation System (podcast) * Advancing Water Use Efficiency in Vineyards with Sub-surface Micro-Irrigation Techniques * Assessing Impacts of Direct Root-Zone Irrigation on Grapevine Physiology * Ceres Imaging * Direct Root Zone Watering (video) * Irrigation Best Management Practices * New irrigation system can cut vineyard water usage by 35 percent * Pete Jacoby * SIP Certified

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Once a vineyard manger has found disease there is often not much to be done, they are merely mitigating loss. The Lab at Cornell has launched several grape disease sensing technology projects to study early detection and how to use that information. Leading the research is Katie Gold, assistant professor of plant pathology and plant microbe-biology at Cornell AgriTech. The programs utilize imaging spectroscopy (also known as hyperspectral imaging) deployed at all scales, from autonomous rovers to spacecraft with the goal to detect disease earlier when management is going to be both minimal and successful. The latest research includes partnering with NASA to look at how dust currents can move pathogens across the globe to building autonomous robots to detect downy mildew, powdery mildew, and to aide pruning decisions.

References: * 18: Next Steps in Grape Sampling (Podcast) * Cornell AgriTech * Grant to support research into grape downy mildew * Katie Gold * SIP Certified * Scientists track plant diseases riding across globe with dust * Twitter | @kaitlinmgold

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Wildfires and COVID impacted legislation as much as they impacted wine production this year. Lauren Noland-Hajik, Attorney and Lobbyist at Soares & Conway coves some of the major changes seen in 2020 and what is coming up in 2021. The March shutdown of the legislature due to COVID resulted in the handing off of power from the legislature off to governor to make executive orders. This is a scenario that has not been seen in a long time and was still in place as of the end of 2020.

With the extended tax deadline, the legislature passed baby budget and filled in details in August. As a result, many programs were gutted. New programs and one time funds were taken off the table including programs like upgrading diesel engines, healthy soils program, and air quality plans that help agriculture.

Lauren covers new and upcoming policies including how ag can be a solution for wildfires; a bill to create consistent training for M95 mask use; AB685 defining a COVID outbreak and the notification procedure; SB1159 defining where COVID cases are presumed to be contracted; SB1383 to expand protected family leave; and Prop15 impacting property taxes.

In 2021 Lauren anticipates more bills on employee protection, legislation around recycling, and the codification of CalOSHA emergency regulations into bills.

References: Podcast

76: Regulations that will Affect Your Wine Business this Year (podcast)
Kahn, Soares, & Conway, LLP
Lauren Noland-Hajik | lhajik@kscsacramento.com
Official California Legislative Information
SIP Certified

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In 1972 Paul Kalemkiarian’s father purchased a liquor store and began featuring two of his top wine picks each month. Customers, appreciative of the direction in wine selection, would ask to have wine shipped to them and the Wine of the Month Club was born. The intent of the club remains the same, to help customers select a good wine for the value, not to sell any wine. After sampling over 100,000 wines, Paul knows you need to taste a wine to know if it is good.

Having a sustainable business means being able to go to market through different routes so consumers can buy at varying price points. Paul reflects on shipping challenges from reporting to taxes; misconceptions about the quality of wine coming from the bulk market; and the slow road to pivot from on premise sales to online post COVID.

As Paul says, “Wine is an ethereal fruit, expressive of where it is grown unlike any other fruit,” and the industry can help consumers experience wine in a new way.

References: * 82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer | Brandi Moody (Podcast) * 85: It‘s Time for New Wine Sales Strategies | Paul Mabray (Podcast) * Joanne DePuy and the Judgment of Paris | Wine Talks with Paul K (Podcast) * Paul K | paul@womclub.com * SIP Certified * The Man. George Taber, only journalist to show at the Judgement of Paris | Wine Talks with Paul K (Podcast) * Wineofthemonthclub.com * Wine Talks with Paul K

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In mid-April 2020, the grape market saw its highest bulk inventory at 23 million gallons. By November that quantity had reduced significantly to 8.5 million gallons. Audra Cooper, Central Coast Grape Broker and Partner at Turrentine Brokerage explains how the grape market has been on a roller coaster throughout 2020. At the beginning of the year, most varieties and regions in California were in drastic oversupply. The onset of COVID lead to pantry loading as people increased wine consumption at home. Summer fires reduced fruit supply, skyrocketed bulk wine sales, and leave a lot of questions around what the quality of the 2020 vintage will be. Although many wine brands learned proactive techniques to manage smoke taint over the past few years, the industry still lacks standardization in regards to smoke taint testing.

References: * 73: Smoke Impact on Wine (Podcast) * 65: Winegrape Brokering and Todays Grape Market (Podcast) * Audra Cooper * SIP Certified * Smoke Impact in Grapes and Wine | ETS Laboratories * Smoke Taint: How Much Smoke is Too Much? | Craig Macmillan, PhD * Turrentine Brokerage

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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The Spotted Lanternfly (SLF) is the newest agricultural invasive species in the United States. Originally from Asia, this insect feeds on plant sap from a broad range of hosts. Dr. Heather Leach, Extension Associate at the Department of Entomology at Penn State University is focused on researching this insect and educating the public on how to manage the pest. Although it appears that SLF has been in the United States for some years, growers are now seeing adverse effects and report extreme vine decline and death.

A major part of Heather’s research is around how to manage SLF. While a large number of insecticides are effective, the challenge is that population’s levels are highest during harvest. This restricts the insecticide use to products with low residuals and requires more applications. Alternative management trials with some promise include exclusion netting, cannon sprayers, building a border with insecticide treated netting, and determining if there are predators already in the United States.

References: * Heather Leach * Lanternfly Study Yields Insight into Insecticide, Biopesticide Effectiveness * Penn State Extension Spotted Lanternfly * SIP Certified * Spotted Lanternfly Frequently Asked Questions * StopSLF.org * Sustainable Ag Expo * Using Traps for Spotted Lanternfly Management

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Today, 40% of the California wine industry does not have a Farm Advisor. Four industry veterans discuss retirements and recruitment for UC Cooperative Extension. Larry Bettiga, long time UCCE Farm Advisor Monterey County, discusses how reduction in staff looks from the perspective of a Farm Advisor. Chris Storm, Viticulturist of Vino Farms covers his experience with Farm Advisors and their import to the industry to assist smaller growers and facilitate research. Dr. Wendy Powers, Associate Vice President, UC Agriculture and Natural Resources, and Cliff Ohmart facilitate a brainstorming session on how the industry can fill this void through PCAs, consultants and organizations like the Vineyard Team and Lodi Winegrowers.

This discussion is an excerpt from the 2020 virtual Sustainable Ag Expo course on Current Status of UC Cooperative Extension - Retirements and Recruitment. Use the link below to register for the course and hear the full discussion between November 9 and December 4, 2020.

References: * 52: The Long View on Sustainable Winegrowing with Cliff Ohmart (podcast) * Dr. Wendy Powers, Associate Vice President, UC Agriculture and Natural Resources * Larry Bettiga, UCCE Farm Advisor Monterey County * Lodi Wine Growers * UC Cooperative Extension * Sustainable Ag Expo * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team

Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

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Leading expert Dr. Andrew Landers of Cornell University discusses his more than thirty years of research and development on pesticide sprayer technology to reduce pesticide use through accurate, efficient delivery of the product to the plant.

References: * 2015 Precision Agriculture Workshop (Video) * Andrew Landers Webpage * Effective Vineyard Spraying | Andrew Landers * Effective Vineyard Spraying Online Educational Module (DPR CE credit available) * Pesticide Application Technology at Cornell * Sustainable Ag Expo * SIP Certified * Waste Not, Want Not!: Recent advances in technology for the precise spraying of pesticides (Video)

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A recent study examined the potential of hemp terpene drift from hemp crops planted in close proximity to vineyards in Sonoma County, California. George Sellu, Program Coordinator and Instructor in the Agribusiness department at Santa Rosa Junior College explains the nuances of hemp production from how volatile aroma profiles vary by variety, the lack of studies to show volatiles impact grapes, wind influence on volatile organic compound movement, and smoke taint.

George Sellu joined the SRJC in Fall 2013. He received a Bachelor of Science in Agriculture and Environmental Science with an emphasis in Soil Science from the University of Sierra Leone and a MS and PhD in Agricultural Science/Education from the University of California, Davis.

References: * George Sellu | gsellu@santarosa.edu * Growing Cannabis in Wine Country: The Shone Farm Project * Hemp Being Explored as a New Farm Crop in Sonoma County * Sustainable Ag Expo * SIP Certified

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In this research, he has defined three principals to build soil fertility; minimal disturbance, cover cropping, and growing a diversity of crops. David has studied the success of these principals in agricultural systems around the world, from subsistence farmers to large commodity crops in North America. Healthy soils support more crop growth, have less erosion, and even look and smell healthier.

The author of three books, David is a wealth of information on how soil life impacts plant productivity.

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Dr. Charlotte Decock, Assistant Professor Cal Poly - Earth & Soil Sciences talks about soil management with the goal of capturing greenhouse gasses from the atmosphere and sequestering them in the soil. Her teaching and research focus on sustainable fertilizer and soil management in California’s specialty crops.

This podcast is a recording from a workshop we co-costed on soil health. As part of California Climate Investments, the California Department of Food and Agriculture’s (CDFA) Healthy Soils Program distributed $5.8 million in cap and trade funds in 2018 to farming and ranching operations for the implementation of soil health practices that sequester carbon and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This workshop brought together a team of researchers and growers from Cal Poly, the Vineyard Team, J. Lohr Vineyard, and Tablas Creek Vineyard to talk about their Demonstration Project grant from the Healthy Soils Program to demonstrate the benefits of compost application and no-till practices for vineyard operations.

References: * 28: Understanding Soil Health (Podcast) * Dr. Charlotte Decock * The Composting Process * Compost Rate Calculator * Floor Management for Soil Health * Notes on Composting Grape Pomace * Supporting Soil Health Using Compost | Slides from a talk by Cristina Lazcano & Charlotte Decock * Sustainable Ag Expo * SIP Certified

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Some 25 to 30 percent of vineyards in Washington state have nematode population densities that are considered damaging. Nematodes have a slow, chronic negative impact on vine health. Plants have less foliage and visible weak spots in the field.

Inga Zasada, Research Plant Pathologist with the USDA Agricultural Research Service is particularly interested in nematode management because Washington is mostly own rooted vines. These vines are highly susceptible to nematodes and farmers need to consider soil health with the imminent replanting of vines in the next 10 to 15 years. Most research on nematodes comes out of California where the nematode populations are different. Current management options are limited to rootstocks or preplant fumigation. Inga and her team are working on practical research for growers including identifying where different types of nematodes are in relation to the vine and a degree day model for nematode life stages so if chemical becomes available it can be used property.

References: * Electrifying nematodes and pathogens! | Riga, Crisp, McComb, Weiland, Zasad * How Low Can They Go? Plant-Parasitic Nematode Distribution in a Washington Vineyard | East, Moyer, Madden, Zasada * Inga Zasada * SIP Certified * USDA ARS Horticulture Happenings * Viticulture Research from Washington State University with Dr. Moyer (Podcast) * Zasada Lab

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Pierce’s Disease is caused by bacteria spread by xylem sucking insects. The bacteria move quickly throughout the vine causing disease which blocks the flow of liquid through the plant. Symptoms of leaf scorching – leaves that are curled and dried up on the edges - show up mid-summer. This pathogen is successful because plant does not recognize that it is there and does not mount a good defense.

Steven Lindow, Professor of Plant Pathology at the University of California Berkley is a plant pathologist and microbial ecologist. He and his team are researching other bacteria that can grow in the grapevine that mysteriously sensitize them to the Pierce’s Disease pathogen. Once inoculated with the new bacteria the plant induces its innate immune system to combat Pierces Disease. This process works like a vaccine although the bacteria itself does not cause a direct action.

Naturally found in onions, the bacteria can be applied in a spray with a surfactant. Current research indicates that this process will need to be repeated annually. As the EPA considers beneficial bacteria a pesticide, Lindow is pursuing the registration process so this technique can be used commercially.

References: * Biological Control of Pierce’s Disease of Grape by an Endophytic Bacterium * Caroline Roper, Associate Professor of Plant Pathology & Plant Pathologist, University of California Riverside * Cell-cell signaling controls Xylella fastidiosa interactions with both insects and plants * Steven Lindow, Professor of Plant Pathology, University of California Berkley * SIP Certified * Use of a Green Fluorescent Strain for Analysis of Xylella fastidiosa Colonization of Vitis vinifera

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50-million-year-old reserves of humified organic matter are a substance called lignite. It is commonly known as brown or soft coal, a substance usually equated with energy production. Researchers at the Technical University of Dresden have found that this very old, carbon rich plant material has the same building blocks as humus – the organic matter reserves found in soil. Virginia Corless, Chief Growth Officer at Novihum Technologies, explains how reacting lignite with nitrogen has created a new soil amendment to improve nutrient retention, water storage, and the vitality of the microbiome.

While the greatest benefits were expected in sandy soils, it turns out that a small percentage of clay like what would be found in a sandy loam, creates a beneficial interaction. One long-term trial of Novihum found that after 17 years, 90 percent of the original application was still in the soil.

References: * 53: Producing Compost and Carbon Sequestration (Podcast) * 72: Soil Microbes and Nutrient Availability (Podcast) * Could Agriculture Bloom in the Desert? Qatar Works to Invent an Innovative Oasis (Video) * Novihum.com * Novihum Academic and Field Trials * Sahara Forest Project Grows Food, And Biofuel * SIP Certified * Technical University of Dresden * Virginial Corless | v.corless@novihum.com

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Bruce Reisch Professor of Grapevine Breeding and Genetics at Cornell University, specialized in the development of new wine and table grape varieties, as well as new grape breeding techniques. New winegrape varieties need a market niche whether that be versatility, sustainability, disease resistance, climate resilience, or productivity. These traits are achieved with hybrids. Of the more than 60 grape species available, most of the grapes we are familiar with come from European vitis vinifera. Unfortunately, this species offers little disease resistance, but other species have better sources. Developing new hybrids is a 15 to 25 year selection process looking at all attributes from berry size to wine quality plus lengthy trials. Today there is a high acceptance of hybrids and some new ones are even being used in varietal wines.

References: * Bruce Reisch, Professor of Grapevine Breeding and Genetics, Cornell University * Cornell-Geneva Grapevine Breeding and Genetics Program * Grape Selections from the VitisGen and VitisGen2 Projects * SIP Certified * Twitter @reischnewyork * VitisGen2

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While wineries can maintain business operations during COVID-19, day to day operations look much different than they did the first few months of 2020. Hear how three wineries are adapting to their new way of doing business.

Nathan Carlson, General Manager and Winemaker of Center of Effort Wines shares how they are discovering opportunities and better way to do business from saving on travel with telecommuting distributor presentation to connecting face to face with club members across the nation for the first time through virtual tastings.

Dieter Cronje, Winemaker at Presqu’ile explains the challenges and decreased efficiency of bottling with a smaller crew, plus how they are planning to reopen their tasting room.

Molly Bohlman, Winemaker at Niner Wine Estates explains how they are making team decisions to ensure their entire staff feels safe plus how they are rearranging schedules to maintain social distancing.

These interviews were recorded mid May 2020. Best practices continue to evolve, so please review your local best practices for the latest information.

References: * 7/15 Strategizing Social Media in 2020 Webinar * An Opportunity for Innovation: State of the US Wine Industry | Rob Macmillan * Center of Effort Wines * Governor Newsom Announces California Winery Tasting Room Reopenings * Niner Wine Estates * Presqu’ile * Resources Regarding Coronavirus and COVID-19 * SIP Certified * Wine Institute Corona Virus Update * Wine Marketing Series (Podcast)

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Paul Mabray, CEO of Emetry is helping wine brands make more effective sales and marketing decisions with data. He finds that wineries focus too heavily on finding new customers when they should put effort into retaining the ones they already have.

The days of COVID-19 have shed a spotlight on the brittle tasting room model. Wineries ask customers to travel to them, sometimes at great distances, outlaying significant costs. It is inefficient and now is the time to bolster online presence. Consumers, familiar with shopping at retailers like Amazon, have a large expectation for online purchases. The wine industry needs to meet or exceed those expectations.

Historically, the wine industry had followed, not lead trends. Today there is no standout winery with an online presence. This creates a huge opportunity for brands to create and to become the next Warby Parker of wine.

References: * 7/15/20 Strategizing Social Media in 2020 Webinar * 81: Marketing Wine in a Pandemic | Rob McMillan (podcast) * 82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer | Brandy Moody (podcast) * Chardonnay Trends | Emetry Blog * Emetry * Insights for Successful Consumer Wine Sales Videocast * Deploying Staff when your Tasting Room is Closed | Emetry Blog * SIP Certified Self-Assessment * Twitter | Paul Mabray * US Wine Market: Six Consumer Groups * Wine Customer Segments and How to Talk SIP with Them

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As far back as 4000 years ago, man and falcon cooperated to the benefit of both. Today, they are used in the vineyard, other agricultural crops, resorts and landfills for sustainable bird abatement.

Beginning at version, grapes become a very attractive food for pest birds, particularly Sparrows and Starlings. Initially the vineyard is explored by small flocks of scouting birds. If those birds like the fruit, and if there is no obvious danger, the entire flock will follow. Falcons terrify pest birds, herding them away from the grapes, but not killing them.

Jake Messinger, Master Falconer and Bird Abatement Specialist, explains how each falcon species has their own talent. Falconers match the birds with the areas needs to deter pest bird species.

References: * 58: Barn Owls (podcast) * Airstrike Bird Control * Barn Owl Nesting Box Fact Sheet * Crops and Barn Owls * Falconry Training and Technique * Jake Messinger | jmessinger.airstrike@gmail.com * SIP Certified Self-Assessment

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Sustainability and certification are viewed as a “quality enhancement”. In the currently overly supplied market, sustainability is an advantage. A premium can be getting $200 to $300 more per ton of grapes in a good market or it can mean selling grapes when no one else can in a weak market.

Gregg Hibbits, General Manager at Mesa Vineyard Management explains how their dedication to sustainability for over 30 years has drawn like-minded customers to their organization. Their clients large and small, from Santa Barbara to Oregon, seek certification for different reasons: owners wanting to certify their own wine brand; larger brands looking to purchase certified fruit; and investment holdings wanting to report sustainability to their holders. Gregg believes that authenticity around how they farm, what they deliver, and how they take care of the people and the planet will payoff in long term.

References: * 5.21.20 Getting to Know Your Customer Webinar * 82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer (Podcast) * 81: Marketing Wine in a Pandemic | Rob McMillan (Podcast) * 76: Regulations that will Affect Your Wine Business this Year (Podcast) * 65: Winegrape Brokering and Todays Grape Market (Podcast) * A Practical Guide to Developing a Commercial Wine Vineyard * Mesa Vineyard Management * SIP Certified Self-Assessment * State of the Industry Wine Report 2020 | Rob McMillan

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Brandi Moody explains that to develop a strong marketing strategy you need to know your consumer segments, learn about them, see what they like, and market to them where they are. Brandi is an experienced marketer with a keen sense of burgeoning trends, consumer insights, and brand storytelling.

With the onset of COVID-19, social distancing and shelter in place, we are in the midst of a “cultural reset” that is changing how consumers ingest media and purchase products. Wine brands can take this time to learn what their consumer is doing online to develop promotional strategies for online content and sales incentives.

For over twelve years Brandi worked on international market research projects for a range of companies in the alcohol, grocery store, personal care, action sports, hospitality, food, and beverage industries including Bacardi, ESPN, Bath and Body Works, Coca Cola and Dannon.

Following her years deeply entrenched in the research and consumer insights world, Brandi pivoted to the wine industry as a marketing, communications, and events director. After gaining invaluable acumen in this arena, she transitioned to the legal cannabis space working for a vertically integrated cannabis company developing customer personas, overseeing content creation, tracking industry trends, and responding to a rapidly developing market. She is a co-host on the podcast Rec’d which takes a closer look at what post-legal cannabis looks like in California.

Brandi is the co-founder of Saage Insights, a research firm dedicated to future-proofing businesses and creating tailored research projects and strategies to understand the ever-evolving consumer.

References: * 5.21.20 Getting to Know Your Customer Webinar * 81: Marketing Wine in a Pandemic | Rob McMillan * Brandi Moody * Communicating Ingredients - What's in that SIP? * Crisis Management for Wine Country | Rob McMillan * Insights for Successful Consumer Wine Sales Videocast * Rec’d Podcast * SIP Certified Self-Assessment * State of the Industry Wine Report 2020 | Rob McMillan * US Wine Market: Six Consumer Groups * Wine Customer Segments and How to Talk SIP with Them

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The average winery sells 30 percent of their wines out of the tasting room plus another 20 percent to restaurants. That means 40 to 60 of annual sales are impacted by COVID-19 with closed tasting rooms and take out only restaurants IF shelter in place were to continue all year. But, Rob McMillan, VP and Founder of the Silicon Valley Bank Wine doubts that will be the case.

We were already experiencing a market correction before COVID-19, so what can wineries do now and in the future to connect with their consumers and sell wines? For production; preserve cash, work with vendors and employees to cut costs, and push bottling out. For marketing, start a phone campaign with your customers, offer drive through pickups or deliveries, and use this time as an opportunity to cross train your team.

The good news is people drink wine. During prohibition alcohol consumption actually increased. It is time to get creative; meet your consumers where they are. Figure out new DTC tactics via digital channels. Market to the health-conscious consumer by talking about ingredients, calories, values, and sustainable practices.

Previous market corrections have ended with an increase in demand. Today’s wineries need to get to the other side of this slump prepared with new marketing campaigns to connect to their consumers.

References: * Communicating Ingredients - What's in that SIP? * Crisis Management for Wine Country | Rob McMillan * Insights for Successful Consumer Wine Sales Videocast * Rob McMillan * SIP Certified Self-Assessment * SIP Smart | April 22 * State of the Industry Wine Report 2020 | Rob McMillan * SVB on Wine * SIP with a Somm | April 7 * Wine Customer Segments and How to Talk SIP with Them

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Dr. Michelle Moyer, Assistant Professor and Statewide Viticulture Extension Specialist at Washington State University uses the age old fairytale of Goldilocks and the Three Bears to explain powdery mildew. Like Goldilocks, powdery mildew likes the weather conditions to be just right. Dr. Moyer explains these ideal conditions and two key ways to avoid disease in your vineyard by making things “not right”.

References: * 1: Bunch Rot with Larry Bettiga (podcast) * 57: Wet Climate Viticulture | Fritz Westover (podcast) * 79: Grapevine Fungal Diseases * Coincidence of maximum severity of powdery mildew on grape leaves and the carbohydrate sink-to-source transition * Gubler-Thomas Model * PMapp: A Mobile App for Assessing Grape Powdery Mildew * UC Davis Powdery Mildew Model * UC Pest Management Guidelines

Listen to the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

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Wayne Wilxox, Professor Emeritus of Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology at Cornell University, spent his career on the applied biology and integrated management of grapevine fungal diseases. Wayne looks at berry susceptibility changes throughout the season to determine when control programs need to be maximized. Ultimately, his applied research sought to discover what makes a “disease tick” and use that knowledge to learn how to better target the disease.

References: * 47: Fungicide Resistance in the Vineyard | Walt Mahaffee (podcast) * 54: Growing Grapes on Two Coasts | Mark Chien (podcast) * 57: Wet Climate Viticulture | Frits Westover (podcast) * Coincidence of maximum severity of powdery mildew on grape leaves and the carbohydrate sink-to-source transition * Gubler-Thomas Model * PMapp: A Mobile App for Assessing Grape Powdery Mildew * Researchon sulfur on grapes – American society of vit * SIP Certified Self-Assessment * Tailgate: Managing Vine Mealybug in an Era of Leafroll * Wayne Wilcox

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Grape vine trunk diseases are prevalent in mature vineyards, shortening the vineyard’s life and productivity. Akif Eskalen, Cooperative Extension Specialist and Plant Pathologist at the Department of Plant Pathology at the University of California Davis, is researching naturally occurring microorganisms to use as biocontrol against these fungal pathogens. Antagonistic microorganisms already live in the plant tissue without causing damage to the plant but may become depleted. Akif and his team working to deliver beneficial bacteria back into the plant both at the nursery and in established vineyards. There is evidence that these beneficial microorganism not only increase the plants defense mechanism, but also improves the health of the plant and potentially increases yield.

References: * 2: The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management (podcast) * 47: Fungicide Resistance in the Vineyard (podcast) * Eskalen Lab * "Eutypa" A.K.A. Grapevine Trunk Disease * Gubler-Thomas Model * Managing Trunk Diseases During Vineyard Establishment with Dr. Kendra Baumgartner * PMapp: A Mobile App for Assessing Grape Powdery Mildew * SIP Certified Self-Assessment * SIP for Scholars

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One decade ago, amidst a limited labor supply and growing New Zealand wine industry, Klima co-founders Marcus Wichkam and Nigel George set out to solve their own labor issues with mechanization. By developing a highly efficient vineyard pruning system they have removed the physically demanding portion of the job opening the opportunity to employ fewer, more highly skilled tradesworkers to perform cane selection. This mechanization has enhanced consistency, improved quality, and, with a 50 percent reduction in labor required for pruning, significantly lowered costs.

References: * 22: Farm Labor Shortage (podcast) * Immigration and Farm Labor with Dr. Phillip Martin (video) * Klima.co.nz * Klima Gen 2 (video) * Klima Unified Wine & Grape 2020 booth B827 * Mechanical Pruning | Vineyard Team Tailgate (video) * SIP Certified Self-Assessment * 2/26/20: Grower Perspectives on Redevelopment: Materials, Redesign, Equipment (event)

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Lauren Noland-Hajik, Attorney and Lobbyist at Kahn, Soares & Conway gives an update on new policies that affect the wine industry. She explains the legislature and how bills are formed through committee hearings; covers the Water Resiliency Plan and how it affects Sustainable Groundwater Management Act; regulating power shutoffs to prevent wildfires; anticipated regulations on pesticides including glyphosate, rodenticides, and fungicides; the importance of educating consumers and government about the these ag tools; and impending labor law changes including the minimum wage increase, overtime (AB 1066), paid sick leave, and how the Dynamex Decision affects truck drivers.

References: * AB 1066 * California Department of Pesticide Regulation * California Minimum Wage * Kahn, Soares, & Conway, LLP * Lauren Noland-Hajik | lhajik@kscsacramento.com * SGMA Groundwater Management * SIP Certified

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John A. Roncoroni is the UC Cooperative Extension Weed Science Farm Advisor and UCIPM affiliate advisor in Napa County. In this podcast, John discusses his specialty; weed management in California’s Coastal and Foothill premium winegrape growing regions. He discussed why weeds should play a more important role in pest control programs, knowing which weeds you have on your property, fire mitigation, and the toughest weeds to control today.

John received both a BS in Environmental Policy Analysis and Planning, with an emphasis in Agriculture and an MS in Horticulture from UC Davis. He was a Staff Research Associate in the UC Davis Department of Plant sciences working in all aspects of weed management for 25 years.

References: * John Roncoroni * MAINTAINING LONG-TERM MANAGEMENT: Herbicide-resistant weeds challenge some signature cropping systems * Napa County UCCE * Science and Controversy of Glyphosate | Dr. Scott Steinmaus (podcast) * SIP Certified * The Long View on Sustainable Winegrowing | Cliff Ohmart (podcast) * University of California Integrated Pest Management Integrated Weed Management * Vineyard Floor Management: Steel in the Field (video) * Weed Management: Biology, Technology & Practice (tailgate)

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In this special holiday edition we bring you a fascinating interview with Dr. Stephen Lloyd-Moffett, professor of Religious Studies at California Polytechnic State University.

Stephen looks at the way in which passion for wine acts as a surrogate for religion. In this interview he discusses how wine is a vehicle for communication, creating a transcendent wine experience through your environment, why rituals communicate value, and using this beverage to create bonds. And if you love this topic, you can read more in the newly released The Spirit of Wine: Finding Religion in the Fruit of the Vine.

Listen in to learn how religions studies can help us build our own vibrant communities and understand the world of wine.

References: * Hit the Bottle (podcast) * Neuroscience and Marketing: How People Make Decisions (podcast) * SIP Certified * Stephen Lloyd-Moffett * Tips for Hospitality and Marketing from SIP Certified * The Spirit of Wine * The Spirit of Wine | Facebook * The Spirit of Wine | Instagram

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California has seen another challenging and sometimes devastating year of fires. Smoke from these events can cause unwanted flavors in wine. In this interview, Eric Herve, Research Scientist at ETS Laboratories and Matt Brain, Leader of the Sustainability Team at Crimson Wine Group and Associate Winemaker at Chamisal Vineyards, discuss how winemakers can screen grapes for the risk of smoke impact and work to mitigate its effects. Eric covers how impactful these compounds are at very low - parts per billion levels, the markers they are researching to test smoke exposure, blending considerations and much more.

References: * Eric Hervé, Research Scientist, ETS Laboratories * Matt Brain, Associate Winemaker at Chamisal Vineyards * Smoke Impact in Grapes and Wine | ETS Laboratories * Smoke Taint: How Much Smoke is Too Much? | Craig Macmillan, PhD * Smoke Taint | The Australian Wine Research Institute * SIP Certified

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Tarah’s research emphasis is on linking the function and phylogeny of the soil microbiome, specifically with regard to the interactions and impacts on metal bioavailability and soil health. Whether the context is micronutrient availability in the rhizosphere, which confers plant growth promotion and crop enhancement, or in the context of contaminated systems where bioremediation and bioaugmentation are the best options to remediate heavy metals polluted sites, the soil microbiome is key in theses biotransformations. Understanding the consortia of organisms and the mechanisms involved drives the work done in her lab with a wide array of biochemical and molecular techniques.

References: * 12.3.19 | Water and Nitrogen Use Webinar * 28: Understanding Soil Health (Podcast) * 53: Producing Compost and Carbon Sequestration (Podcast) * Digging into Soil Bacteria and Chlorosis * Floor Management for Soil Health * Soil Microbiology & Agricultural Sustainability | Tarah Sullivan (Podcast) * Tarah Sullivan, Assistant Professor of Soil Microbiology, Washington State University * Vineyard Team Membership

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Gerhard (Gerry) Pietersen is a plant virologist with an interest in solving problems in South African agriculture related to plant viruses.

In this interview Gerry discusses the severe plant health and economic impacts seen in South Africa from Grapevine leafroll disease, the importance of regional buy in to establish a control program including a very successful collaboration of 50 adjoining farms in New Zealand, and new techniques to detect the virus including loop-mediated isothermal amplification (LAMP) and grafting sensitive red cultivars on white cultivars to use the shoot as an indicator.

Gerhard joined the Agricultural Research Council- Plant Protection Research Institute (PPRI), Pretoria in December, 1980 after obtaining his BSc. in Botany and Microbiology from the University of the Witwatersrand. He obtained an MSc-Microbiology at the University of Pretoria in 1984, and completed his PhD. at WITS in 1989. He spent eighteen months at Oregon State University, USA.

His current research portfolio involves; 1) control of grapevine leafroll disease caused in South Africa by grapevine leafroll associated virus type 3 (GLRaV-3) using an integrated research strategy, 2) doing research on viruses of maize as a means of pre-empting the possible incursion of maize chlorotic mottle virus into South Africa, and 3) working on Liberibacters potentially associated with citrus greening or huanglongbing diseases.

Between 2004 and 2009 he was employed by Citrus Research International (CRI) as Virologist and Program Manager, while seconded to the Department of Microbiology and Plant Pathology at University of Pretoria (UP). In 2009 he returned to the employ of Plant Protection Research Institute, while remaining seconded to UP. Gerhard has worked on viruses of many other crops during his career and has authored or co-authored 80 peer reviewed articles.

References: * Controlling Mealybug Vectors of Grapevine Viruses | Dr. Kent Daane (Podcast) * Optimization of grapevine leafroll detection on white cultivars by sentinel canes | Gerhard Pietersen * Red Blotch Virus in Grapevines | Dr. Marc Fuchs (Podcast) * Stopping the Spread of Red Leaf Viruses | Dr. Kari Arnold (Podcast) * Sustainable Ag Expo * Three genetic grapevine leafroll-associated virus 3 variants identified from South African vineyards show high variability in their 5′UTR | Gerhard Pietersen

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Dr. Luca Brillante is the Bronco Viticulture Chair and Assistant Professor of Viticulture in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at California Fresno State University. Prior to this appointment he was a Post-Doc Researcher for the University of California Davis Department of Viticulture and Enology, working on precision viticulture and implementation of variable rate and site specific management approaches.

Luca discusses his current research and teaching on efficient management solutions through digital viticulture, improved accuracy and cost reduction with automation, and how he is teaching the next generation of viticulturists about sustainable wine production.

References: * 67: Impacts of Climate Change on Wine Production | Greg Jones (Podcast) * Applied Water and Mechanical Canopy Management Affect Berry and Wine Phenolic and Aroma Composition of Grapevine (Vitis vinifera L., cv. Syrah) in Central California | Brillante, Kurtural, Martínez-Lüscher * Luca Brillante, Fresno State University * Larry E. Williams Ph.D., Professor Plant Physiologist-AES, Kearney Agricultural Research & Extension Center * Mechanization Bud Break to Bottle | Bart Haycraft (Video) * Sustainable Ag Expo

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Dr. Michelle Moyer, Washington State University Extension, and Associate Professor in the Department of Horticulture and Affiliate Faculty Member in the Department of Plant Pathology returns to the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast after her top rated presentation on the Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management. In this interview she discusses recent research on integrated pest management for grapevine powdery mildew, how short term weather patterns impacts farming decisions, why clean plants may have made red blotch virus more detectable, controlling wine quality with water stress and “Farming by Excel” – how fewer people working in the field has increased growers reliance on data and technology.

References: * Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management | Michelle Moyer (Podcast) * Fungicide Resistance Assessment Mitigation and Extension Network (FRAME) * Michelle Moyer, Washington State University * Sustainable Ag Expo * UC Davis Powdery Mildew Model * UC Pest Management Guidelines * Vineyard Nutrient Management in Washington State | Michelle Moyer, Dr. Stacy Singer, Dr. Joan Davenport, Gwen-Alyn Hoheisel * Washington State University Viticulture and Enology

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Gregory V. Jones is the Director of the Evenstad Center for Wine Education, holds the Evenstad Chair in Wine Studies, and is a professor and research climatologist in the Department of Environmental Studies at Linfield College in Oregon.

He specializes in the study of climate structure and suitability for viticulture, and how climate variability and change influence grapevine growth, wine production and quality.

Greg holds a BA and Ph.D. from the University of Virginia in Environmental Sciences with a concentration in the Atmospheric Sciences. He is the author of numerous book chapters, including being a contributing author to the 2008 Nobel Peace Prize winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Report.

Greg discusses what makes a crop species perform better in some places versus another, why we plant only a few hundred of the of the more than 24,000 varieties, how warm climate winegrowing regions have hedged against climate risk by growing multiple varieties, factors beyond fossil fuels that affect climate change, and our biggest challenges ahead.

References: * 57: Wet Climate Viticulture (Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast) * A New World of Wine: How the Viticultural Map is Changing| Greg Jones | International Masters of Wine Symposium (Video) * Climate Change's Affect on the Wine Industry | Greg Jones | Vinexpo 2019, Bordeaux (Video) * Climate, Grapes, and Wine | Greg Jones | TEDx Roseburg (Video) * Climate Smart Ag and Healthy Soils | Jenny Lester Moffitt * Connections: How climate change is impacting the wine industry| Greg Jones | Here and Now, NPR and WXXI AM News (Podcast) * Gregory V. Jones, Linfield College * Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change * Sustainable Ag Expo

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Dan Rodrigues, Owner of VinaQuest has been farming his whole life. Dan oversees pest control, irrigation, replant, development, and investigates problems on winegrapes, blueberries, and avocados grown from Salinas to Northern Santa Barbara. Additionally he is a lecturer at California Polytechnic State University on viticulture practices and vineyard management.

Dan talks about how the loss of materials impacts farming; disease management for mildew, sour rot, and weeds; the effects of a wet winter; and what trends he sees for the future.

References: * Dan Rodrigues | Dan@vinaquestLLC | 805 459-5514 * Defining and Developing Management Strategies for Sour Rot | Megan Hall, Gregory Loeb, and Wayne Wilcox * Detection of Fungicide Resistant Mildew |Timothy Miles * Cal Poly Wine and Viticulture * Ecological Considerations of Vineyard Development | Dan Rodrigues (Video) * Ecological Considerations of Vineyard Development | Dan Rodrigues (Slides) * Fungicide Resistant Mildew | Timothy Miles (Podcast) * In Defense of Farming | Paul Crout (Podcast) * New Discoveries about Sour Rot | Megan Hall (Podcast) * PMapp: A Mobile App for Assessing Powdery Mildew * The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management | Michelle Moyer (Podcast) * UC Pest Management Guidelines for Powdery Mildew * Vineyard Floor Management: Steel in the Field | (Video) * Vineyard Team * Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship

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Audra Cooper, Broker/Partner at Turrentine Brokerage began her career in 2006 providing support for grape brokers throughout the state and has served as lead grape broker for the Central Coast region of California since 2012. She grew up on ranches in the Central Coast and graduated from California State University at Fresno with a degree in Agricultural Economics. Audra talks about what wine and grape brokering is, the factors that affect grape pricing, the 2018 grape market, how sustainable certification can help set grapes apart in a crowded market, and the quality of the 2019 crop.

References: * A Practical Guide to Developing a Commercial Wine Vineyard | Mark Chien (Podcast) * Audra Cooper * Fresno State University Department of Agricultural Business * SIP Certified * Turrentine Brokerage * Turrentine Wine Wheel * Vineyard Team Educational Scholarship

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Dr. Alfredo Koch, Ag Business, Viticulture & Enology Coordinator, describes the Viticulture and Enology Program at Allan Hancock College in Santa Maria, California. Topics include the content of the degree program, the work students do as part of their training, the campus vineyard, and the wines the students make and sell.

References: * AHC (Allan Hancock College) * AHC Class Search * AHC Distance Learning * AHC Vineyards and Winery * AHC Viticulture & Enology Program * Allan Hancock Winery * Review of Allan Hancock 2016 Syrah (Santa Barbara County) | Wine Enthusiast * Allan Hancock Wines for Sale

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Jim Anshutz, Partner, AgH2O talks about irrigation system maintenance, technology, and efficiency. Topics include system pressure, flushing, protecting emitters, system design, pumping, irrigation scheduling,

Reference * California Irrigation Management Information System (CIMIS) * Cal Poly San Luis Obispo Irrigation Training and Research Center (ITRC) * Fresno State Center for Irrigation Technology (CIT) * Irrigation Consumer Bill of Rights (Drip/Micro Irrigation)| ITRC * Irrigation Consumer Bill of Rights (Soil and Plant Moisture Monitoring Systems)| ITRC * Jim Anshutz’s LinkedIn page * Water Right | Center for Irrigation Technology

Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

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Kacy Smith, Health and Wellness Coordinator & Michael Parola, Assistant Ranch Manager and Sustainability Director at Smith Family Wines talk about the social equity component of sustainability at Smith Family Wines. Topics include their 401(k) retirement plan, health insurance plan, and extensive health and wellness program which includes paid time for exercise, family fitness events, and exercise equipment in the workplace.

References: * Pinnacle HealthCare * Richard Russell CrossFit | Kacy’s company * Sain Medical, Sonora, Mexico * Smith Family Wines * United Ag Benefit Trust * UAB Women Ag Leadership Academy * What is a 401(k)? | Wikipedia article

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Dr. Stephanie Bolton, Sustainable Winegrowing Director, Lodi Winegrape Commission, talks about sustainable farming in Lodi including the use of beneficial insects, pesticide reduction, grower-to-grower education, and the sense of community that makes the Lodi wine region a special place.

References: * 54: Growing Grapes on Two Coasts (podcast with Dr. Cliff Ohmart) * Stephanie Bolton’s LinkedIn Page * Stephanie Bolton | Stephanie@lodiwine.com * Historic Vineyard Society * Lodi American Viticultural Areas * Lodi Growers | Viticultural and other resources for growers in Lodi * Lodi Rules | Information and resources about the Lodi Rules program and sustainable winegrape growing * Lodi Wines | Information about visit Lodi

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Jeff Newton President and CEO, Costal Vineyard Care Associates discusses his career, the history and future of the Santa Ynez American Viticultural Area. Topics include how he got into farming, why he chose wine grapes, and changes he’s seen in the Santa Ynez Valley AVA over the years.

References: * Coastal Vineyard Care Associates * Founding Father: Jeff Newton | Interview with Heather Daenitz * Grower Interview Jeff Newton | Interview with Laurie Daniel * Jeff Newton’s Bio * Winegrowing Areas of Santa Barbara County

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Paul Crout, Agronomist, Helena AgriEnterprises and Vice-Chair, California Association of Pest Control Advisers, talks about the mismatch between farming and the perceptions and beliefs people have about agriculture. He touches on local, state, and national level means of education growers can be involved in and his own efforts to educate the public about what farmers do and do not and how that may differ from public perception.

References: * California Association of Pest Control Advisers * California Farm Bureau Federation * How to Maintain Good Neighbor Relations | Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast * Paul’s LinkedIn page * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project * USDA New Farmers Program: Supporting Ag in Your Schools

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Mark Browning, owner, Barn Owl Box Company and Head Researcher, Barn Owl/Rodent Project discusses barn owls, their role in the environment, their habits and behaviors, their biology, their prodigious appetite for rodents and how to attract and keep them around the farm.

References: * Barn owl battles Kestrel for nesting spot * Barn Owl Biology * Barn Owl Nesting Box Fact Sheet * The Barn Owl Box Company * The Barn Owl/Rodent Project * Crops and Barn Owls * Prey Consumption by a Large Aggregation of Barn Owls in an Agricultural Setting | Mark Browning * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project

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Fritz Westover, owner/operator of Westover Vineyard Advising describes growing conditions and challenges in multiple states across the Southeastern United States and Texas. Fritz’s career has taken him from Pennsylvania to Texas, California to Italy, giving him a unique perspective on growing grapes in different conditions around the world.

References: * 4/22/19 Webinar | Practices for Promoting Vineyard Sustainability in Challenging Climates | Fritz Westover & Vineyard Team * “Growing Grapes in Texas: From the Commercial Vineyard to thee Backyard Vine” | Book * Penn State Extension Wine Grape page * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project * Social Media + Twitter | @WestoverVit + Facebook | @WestoverVineyardAdvising + Instagram | @WestoverViticulture * Texas A&M Viticultural Resources * Westover Vineyard Advising * Vineyard Team * Virtual Viticulture Academy

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Conservation burning is a way of dramatically reducing greenhouse gasses and particulate releases from burning woody material like old grapevines. Biochar is a soil amendment that can hold water and nutrients in the soil for slow release to the plants. Raymond Baltar, Director of the Sonoma Biochar Initiative; Director of the California Biochar Association and Biochar Project Manager at Sonoma Ecology Center explains how to execute a conservation burn and make biochar to reduce smoke and capture carbon.

References: * “Biochar increases vineyard productivity without affecting grape quality: Results from a four years ﬁeld experiment in Tuscany” | Scholarly article * California Biochar Association * Conservation Ag Burning | UCCE Sonoma flyer * “The Conservation Burn Technique” | Vineyard Team Technical Article * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project * Sonoma Biochar Initiative * Sonoma Ecology Center * Randall Graham’s thoughts on biochar (Video) * Raymond Baltar’s LinkedIn page * Workshop: Conservation Burning & Biochar Production Workshop

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One of the most respected viticulturists on the West Coast, Mark Greenspan, Ph.D., President and Viticulturist, Advanced Viticulture, Inc. discusses the science and technology of irrigating winegrapes for maximum quality and yield while managing vine stress and conserving water. Topics include irrigation scheduling with pressure bombs, dendrometers and leaf porometers, technology in the vineyard, and the science behind managing vine stress for maximum benefit.

References: * Advanced Viticulture, Inc. * Dendrometers * “Developmental changes in the diurnal water budget of the grape berry exposed to water deficits” | Scientific article by Dr. Greenspan * “Field evaluation of water transport in grape berries during water deficits”| Scientific article by Dr. Greenspan * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project * Pressure bomb * “Sometimes the Smaller Drink is Better” | Article by Dr. Greenspan * UC Davis Department of Viticulture & Enology * Wine Business Monthly Archives (Mark Greenspan’s columns)

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Mark Chien, Program Coordinator of the Oregon Wine Research Institute, has devoted his career to helping grapegrowers in some of the most difficult growing regions in the world. Over the past four decades Mark’s work as an educator and extentionist in Pennsylvania and Oregon has improved wine quality on both coasts. Mark shares highlights from his career including his years as a vineyard manager, Pennsylvania State University viticulture extension agent, and program coordinator for Oregon Wine Research Institute.

References: * Oral History Interview with Mark Chien | The Linfield Archives (Video) * Oregon Wine Research Institute * Oregon Wine Research Institute Stakeholders Report * Pennsylvania Wine Grape Network (Tons of articles and information) * Pennsylvania Wine Grape Network Travelogues * Pindar Vineyards * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project * Temperance Hill Vineyards

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This podcast is a recording from a workshop we co-costed on soil health. As part of California Climate Investments, the California Department of Food and Agriculture’s (CDFA) Healthy Soils Program distributed $5.8 million in cap and trade funds in 2018 to farming and ranching operations for the implementation of soil health practices that sequester carbon and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This workshop brought together our team of researchers and growers from Cal Poly, the Vineyard Team, J. Lohr Vineyard, and Tablas Creek Vineyard to talk about their Demonstration Project grant from the Healthy Soils Program to demonstrate the benefits of compost application and no-till practices for vineyard operations.

The first of our two recordings is with Kevin Piper, Director of Agricultural Operations, California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo. Kevin describes the composting operation at Cal Poly SLO and all the factors that go into producing high-quality compost with the materials from Cal Poly’s farming operations.

Our second speaker is Dr. Charlotte Decock, Assistant Professor Cal Poly - Earth & Soil Sciences. Charlotte talks about soil management with the goal of capturing greenhouse gasses from the atmosphere and sequestering them in the soil. Her teaching and research focus on sustainable fertilizer and soil management in California’s specialty crops.

References: * 19: Healthy Soils Program (Podcast) * 28: Understanding Soil Health (Podcast) * Dr. Charlotte Decock * The Composting Process * Compost Rate Calculator * Floor Management for Soil Health * Notes on Composting Grape Pomace * Supporting Soil Health Using Compost | Slides from a talk by Cristina Lazcano & Charlotte Decock * What is Quality Compost | Slides from the talk in this podcast by Kevin Piper

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Dr. Cliff Ohmart shares insights from his career in sustainability research and education in winegrapes and other crops. He talks about how his experiences with the Lodi Winegrape Commission and grape growers in the Lodi appellation shaped how he sees IPM and sustainable winegrowing today.

References: * 27: 50 years of IPM | Peter Goodell (Sustainable Winegrowing) * 35: Integrated Pest Management in Sustainably Farmed Vineyards | Bart Haycraft (Sustainable Winegrowing) * Google search results for “Cliff Ohmart” * Lodi Winegrape Commission * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project * “The Integration of Chemical and Biological Control of the Spotted Alfalfa Aphid: The Integrated Control Concept” (The original IPM article) * View from the Vineyard: A Practical Guide to Sustainable Winegrape Growing| Clifford P. Ohmart * “What is IPM” (UCIPM webpage)

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View from the Vineyard: A Practical Guide to Sustainable Winegrape Growing

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References: * 1/15/19 Tailgate Meeting | Effective Vineyard Spraying - Soledad * 1/17/19 Tailgate Meeting | Effective Vineyard Spraying - Santa Maria * 2015 Precision Agriculture Workshop (Video) * Andrew Landers Webpage * Effective Vineyard Spraying | Andrew Landers * Effective Vineyard Spraying Online Educational Module (DPR CE credit available) * Pesticide Application Technology at Cornell * Waste Not, Want Not!: Recent advances in technology for the precise spraying of pesticides (Video)

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Kris Beal, M.S., Executive Director of Vineyard Team, recounts some of the history of the organization, it’s current activities and what the future holds in store. The Vineyard Team identifies and promotes the most environmentally safe, viticulturally and economically sustainable farming methods, while maintaining or improving quality and flavor of wine grapes. The Team is a model for wine grape growers and will promote the public trust of stewardship for natural resources.

References:

About the Vineyard Team (Video)
Founding Members of the Vineyard Team (Video)
Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project
Sustainable Ag Expo
Sustainability in Practice (SIP Certified) (Program)
Sustainability In Practice (SIP Certified) (Sign-up)
Vineyard Team

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Grapevine Leaf Roll-associated Virus 3 as well other virus diseases of grapevines have a profound effect on wine quality and the economic viability of a vineyard. Dr. Kari Arnold the Area Orchard and Vineyard Systems Advisor at Stanislaus County, Associated with University of California Cooperative Extension, describes the connections between the Californian plant propagation system, the movement of mealybugs both in the vineyard and across the globe, the difficulty of identifying virused plants, and practices growers can and are using to manage the spread of red leaf viruses both within and between vineyards.

References: * UCCE Stanislaus County * @KariDigsPlants [Twitter * Controlling Mealybug Vectors of Grapevine Virus | Dr. Kent Daane (Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast) * IPM Control of Vine Mealybugs | Greg Pennyroyal (Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast) * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project * Sustainable and Organic Control of Vine Mealybug in Vineyards: Two Growers, Two Approaches * UC Cooperative Extension Find Academics and Staff\ * UC IPM: Virus Diseases * UC IPM: Vine Mealybug

Get More Subscribe on Google Play, iTunes, Stitcher, TuneIn or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

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Jean-Pierre Wolff, Owner & Vintner of Wolff Vineyards, turning a nuisance into an asset by restoring the stability and ecological functioning of the creeks that surround his property including the steelhead trout spawning habitat. He also realized an economic benefit by preventing the loss of tons of soil to erosion.

References: * 42: Farming with Wildlife| Lucas Pope (Podcast) * Central Coast Regional Board Members * Central Coast Regional Water Quality Control Board * Coastal San Luis Resource Conservation District * Conservation Assistance with NRCS | Margy Lindquist (Podcast) * Natural Resources Conservation Service * Ecological Considerations in Vineyard Development (Video) * Slides for Ecological Considerations in Vineyard Development

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Walt Mahaffee, Ph.D., Research Plant Pathologist, USDA-Agricultural Research Service, Corvalis explains how and why Grape Powdery Mildew populations become resistant to certain fungicides. He also explores how to mitigate resistance and describes current research on how fungicide resistance starts in Grape Powdery Mildew and how it spreads from one place to another.

References: * Mahaffee’s USDA Agricultural Research Service webpage * Fungicide Resistance Action Committee website * Fungicide Resistance in Grapes: Grower Perspective Episode 6 | Vineyard Team Board Members (Sustainable Winegrowing) * Fungicide Resistant Mildew Episode 09 | Dr. Tim Miles (Sustainable Winegrowing) * The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management Episode 2 | Dr. Michelle Moyer (Sustainable Winegrowing) * Grape Powdery Mildew Management and Inoculum Monitoring Episode 5 | Walt Mahaffee (Sustainable Winegrowing) * Slides for “Grape Powdery Mildew Management and Inoculum Monitoring” * Gubler-Thomas Model * PMapp: A Mobile App for Assessing Grape Powdery Mildew * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project * Sustainable Ag Expo * Sustainable Ag Expo Attendee Registration Discount * UC Pest Management Guidelines for Grape Powdery Mildew * What the mildew? A perspective on another challenging year managing powdery mildew | Article by Dr. Mahaffee

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References: * Conserving Irrigation Water| Jacob Hernandez & Craig Macmillan (Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast) * Dr. McCarthy Profile * Google search for ”Michael McCarthy viticulture” * “Managing vines during heat waves” Fact Sheet from Wine Australia * REGULATED DEFICIT IRRIGATION AND PARTIAL ROOTZONE DRYING: An overview of principles and application | Paul E. Kriedemann & Ian Goodwin * Sign Up | Irrigation Efficiency Project * Sustainable Ag Expo * Sustainable Ag Expo Attendee Registration Discount * “Sustainable salinity management in Australian vineyards” Fact Sheet from Wine Australia

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Sarah Lopez, Executive Director of Central Coast Water Quality Preservation, Inc., gets into the details of monitoring flowing water for the presence of pesticides and fertilizers which could have originated on farms upstream. Topics include how monitoring is done, why it is done, and the Cooperative Monitoring Program (CMP) makes compliance with regulations easier and less expensive for growers.

References: * Central Coast Regional Water Quality Control Board * Central Coast Regional Water Quality Control Board Members * Central Coast Water Quality Preservation, Inc. * Coastal San Luis Resource Conservation District * ILRP & Statewide Permit for Industrial Stormwater Discharge- Slides from 2016 Sustainable Ag Expo * Irrigated Lands Regulatory Program * Irrigated Lands Regulatory Program- Central Coast Specific * Sustainable Ag Expo

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This episode features two speakers on pesticides: violations and pesticide container recycling.

Opening the show is an interview with Marc Lea, Deputy Agricultural Commissioner, San Luis Obispo County Ag Department. Marc describes some common violations of the pesticides regulations his office enforces. These include drift, improper use or lack of personal protective equipment (PPE), and the misuse of rodenticides.

Past two of the episode is a recording from the 2017 Sustainable Ag Expo. Lottie Martin, Deputy Agricultural Commissioner, Santa Barbara County Agricultural Commissioner’s Office talks about how to recycle empty pesticide containers safely.

References: * Guideline for Pesticide (Hazardous Waste) Disposal (San Luis Obispo County) | San Luis Obispo County Integrated Waste Management * San Luis Obispo County Ag Department * San Luis Obispo County Ag Department Pesticide Use Enforcement * Santa Barbara County Agricultural Commissioner’s Office * Santa Barbara County Agricultural Commissioner’s Office Pesticide Use Enforcement * Sustainable Ag Expo * UC IPM Selecting and wearing personal protective equipment (Video)

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Josh Prigge, Founder and CEO of Sustridge, a sustainability consulting firm, talks about the ways he has helped his former employers and current clients to not only reduce their environmental impacts, but to work toward regenerative ways of doing business.

References: * Sustainable Hawai’I Pacific University Facebook page * Josh’s Blog * josh@sustridge.com * Sustainable Nation | Josh Prigge (Podcast) * Sustridge

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Halter Ranch comprises 281 acres of winegrapes, 15 acres of organic walnuts, and 3 acres of olives situated in 2,000 acres of oak woodland. This means wild animals are a consideration in farming activities year round. Vineyard Manger Lucas Pope and his team have found ways to co-exist with the native fauna including deer, coyotes, mountain lion, and rattlesnakes.

References: * 30: Managing the Landscape Around the Vineyard | Lino Bozzano (Podcast) * Apex Predator (Slides) | Dr. David Headrick * Critters Along the Creekside | Jodi Hilty * Description of oak woodlands * Halter Ranch * Satellite photo of Halter Ranch * SIP Certified * Story about Justin Dellinger, the mountain biologist | San Luis Obispo Tribune

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Betsey Nash, owner of Nash HR Services, brings the listener up to speed on the “ban the box” law, hiring best practices including using applications instead of relying solely on resumes, communicating expectations to employees and finding applicants who are the right fit for your company.

References: * 38 Communication in the Workplace |Beth Wonson (Podcast) * Ban the box article * Betsey Nash | betsey@nashhrservice.com * com * org * SHRM – Society for Human Resources Management

Get More: Subscribe on Google Play, iTunes, Stitcher, TuneIn or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.

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Steve McIntyre, Owner, Monterey Pacific Inc. and Board Member, Pierce’s Disease/Glassy-winged Sharpshooter Board talks about the PD/GWSS Board, its function, and how the board works to reduce the impacts and spread of this disease. As chair of the PD/GWSS Board Research Screening Committee he works with other growers and scientists to decide what research to fund including an expanded mission to address Vine Mealybug and Brown Marmorated Stink Bug.

References: * 16: Managing Pierce’s Disease in Temecula Valley Vineyards | Matt Daugherty & Greg Pennyroyal (Podcast) * 20: Dr. Mark Fuchs | Red Blotch Virus in Grapevines (Podcast) * Monterey Pacific, Inc. * Pierce’s Disease/Glassy-winged Sharpshooter Board * Pierce’s Disease.org * SustainableAgExpo.org * UC Statewide IPM Guidelines for Pierce’s Disease * UC Statewide IPM Guideline for Sharpshooters (including GWSS)

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Tom Lorish, Senior Customer Relationship Manager, describes multiple Pacific Gas & Electric Company programs and rebates to put money into growers’ pockets.

References: * 39: Saving Water, Saving Energy, Saving Money * Advanced Pumping Efficiency Program (APEP) * July 26, 2018 Tailgate: Water Efficiency, Solar Energy, and Battery Storage * Net Energy Metering (Video) | An easy to understand video explaining Net Energy Metering * PG&E Agriculture and Food Processing Rebate Catalog * PG&E website * Time-of-Use Rate Plans * Tom Lorish, Customer Relationship Manager, PG&E: (805) 595-6430 * Wexus

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Tom Lorish, Senior Customer Relationship Manager, describes some of the ways the Pacific Gas & Electric Company can help growers increase the efficiency of how they use electricity on their farms- especially when it comes to irrigation. Topics include well pump efficiency testing, time-of-use rate plans, net energy metering, and net energy metering aggregation.

References: * Advanced Pumping Efficiency Program (APEP) * July 26, 2018 Tailgate: Water Efficiency, Solar Energy, and Battery Storage * Net Energy Metering (Video) | An easy to understand video explaining Net Energy Metering * PG&E Agriculture and Food Processing Rebate Catalog * PG&E website * Time-of-Use Rate Plans * Tom Lorish, Customer Relationship Manager, PG&E: (805) 595-6430

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Beth Wonson, Founder & CEO of Beth Wonson and Company shares her wisdom about communication in the workplace. The discussion explores how to give feedback or ask questions of employees, listening with empathy, developing our workforce, and the role anger plays in poor communication. Her examples and insights will strike a chord in anyone who has been either an employee or a manager.

References: * A Culture of Sustainability: Scheid Vineyards | Vineyard Team (Podcast) * Beth Wonson & Company * Books by Beth Wonson * Dynamics of Self | Beth Wonson (Podcast) * Grower Panel on Farm Labor Scarcity (Video)

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Jackie Dresser, Viticulture Extension Support Specialist at the Lake Erie Regional Grape Program talks about why estimating vineyard yields is so difficult and the methods she and her team are experimenting with to reach the Holy Grail of estimates that are within five percent of the final harvest. In part two of this two part interview, Jackie explored the golden question: how many samples and how big. She talks about how they sought a reasonable sample size and the future of crop estimation.

References: * Efficient Vineyard website * Lake Erie Regional Grape Program website * Predicting Harvest Yield in Juice and Winegrape Vineyards | Paolo Sabbatini, Imed Dami, G. Stanley Howell * Theory and Assumptions Behind Sampling | Craig Macmillan * Vineyard Yield Estimation | Brittany Kom & Michelle Moyer, WSU

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Jackie Dresser, Viticulture Extension Support Specialist at the Lake Erie Regional Grape Program talks about why estimating vineyard yields is so difficult and the methods she and her team are experimenting with to reach the Holy Grail of estimates that are within five percent of the final harvest. In part one of this two part interview, Jackie explains the Lake Erie region and program, why crop estimation is important depending on who you are in supply chain, the standard techniques, or lack of standard techniques to estimate yield, and how accurate some of these techniques can be.

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Bart Haycraft, Vineyard Manager, Jackson Family Wines Los Alamos describes some of the techniques he for managing vineyard pests in his vineyards including cultivation, pheromones, beneficial insect releases, cover cropping, weather information, and scouting.

References: * 2: The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management | Michelle Moyer (podcast) * 6: Fungicide Resistance in Grapes: Grower Perspective | Bart Haycraft and Others (podcast) * 11: Putting the “I” Back in Vineyard IPM | Peter Goodell (podcast) * Gubler-Thomas Model * Highlights from the Fungicide Resistance Tailgate Meeting * Organic and Sustainable Control of Vine Mealybugs | Willy Cunha & Bart Haycraft * Plant Nutrition and IPM | Gregg Young * SIP Certified

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Living near a vineyard is desirable to many people. Also, development pressure is pushing housing into areas which have traditionally been solely agricultural. This leads to conflicts over noise, dust, and trespassing. Deputy Agricultural Commissioner of San Luis Obispo County Marc Lea and George Donati, General Manager of Pacific Vineyard Company, discuss the types of conflicts between growers and their residential neighbors in San Luis Obispo county and some of the creative, respectful, and successful ways they address these issues to create and maintain good neighbor relationships.

References: Alphabetical

Feeling the Squeeze in the Vineyards | Anne Louise Bannon
Pacific Vineyard Company
SLO County Right to Farm Ordinance
SLO County Right to Farm Ordinance FAQs
San Luis Obispo County Department of Agriculture/Weights & Measures (Ag Commissioner)
SIP Certified

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Growing grapes in Michigan is fraught with challenges, from sub-zero temperatures in the winter to high humidity in the summer. Chantal Lefevbre of WaterFire Vineyards talks about how she manages her vineyards in a sustainable way despite these challenges. As an environmental scientist who changed careers to become a winegrower, Chantal wanted to ensure her farming practices protected the lakes and frogs around her. She chose to certified her vineyard with SIP Certified as a reflection of her dedication to sustainable winegrowing.

References: * Michigan wines: The Official Website of the Michigan Wine Industry * SIP Certified * Vineyard Team Resource Library: Conservation & Biodiversity * WaterFire Vineyards

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Thank you to Jean-FranÃ§ois noulin for the recording of the Spring Peeper's Song.

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Irrigation is just one of many things on a grower’s mind on any given day. To help growers conserve irrigation water in vineyards, Vineyard Team has launched a project to investigate how growers make decisions to adopt agricultural water BMPs given the competition of other management areas for the same scarce resources. Agricultural consultant Jacob Hernandez of JH Ag Consulting and Craig Macmillan, Technical Program Manager for Vineyard Team, discuss the Agricultural Water BMP Adoption project. Funded by a California Department of Water Resources grant, this research project explores how grape growers think about irrigation to identify ways to encourage water conservation. Get some tips on how to maintain your irrigation system plus learn how to become a part of the project.

References: * Sustainable Winegrowing 24: Measuring Water and Nitrogen Use | Paul Crout (Podcast) * Drip Irrigation System Start Up: Recommended Procedures * Irrigation BMPs: Creating a Culture of Conservation – SIGN UP * Irrigation Consumer Bill Of Rights | Charles Burt * Irrigation Training & Research Center (ITRC), California Polytechnic State University * JH Ag Consulting

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Peter Work, Owner, Winemaker, and Vineyard Manager at Ampelos Cellars recounts how becoming a certified organic vineyard led to becoming Demeter® biodynamic certified and eventually SIP Certified®. He explains the similarities and differences between the three certifications and how that helps him farm in a way that promotes and protects the planet, his profits, and the people who work for him.

References: * Ampelos Cellars * Demeter® Association, Inc. * Organic Pest Control in Vineyards Episode 14 | Julian Malone (Podcast) * SIP Certified® * Sustainable and Organic Control of Vine Mealybugs in Vineyards: Two Growers, Two Approaches * USDA Organic Certification

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Lino Bozzano, Vice President of Vineyard Operations at Laetitia Vineyard & Winery, explains how they graze goats and sheep to reduce the risk of fire, prevent weeds from establishing, and improve the health of grasslands as part a holistic approach to managing their 600 plus acre estate.

References: * 21: Investing in Sustainable Ag Research | Stacie Clary (podcast) * Conservation Plan Template * Ecological Pest Management | Dr. Craig Macmillan * Laetitia Vineyard & Winery * SIP Certified

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The Agricultural Worker Protection Standard is a set of U.S. EPA regulations designed to protect workers from exposure to pesticides. In January 2018, new regulations came into effect. Amy Wolfe, President/CEO of AgSafe discusses changes to the Worker Protection Standard including worker training, decontamination, and emergency response training.

References: * AgSafe * California Department of Pesticide Regulation Worker Protection Program * S. EPA Agricultural Worker Protection Standard

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Thanks for music from Honey Bee by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)

Source: http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/index.html?isrc=USUAN1100755

Artist: http://incompetech.com/

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This podcast is an excerpt of the talk Dr. Charlotte Decock delivered at the 2017 Sustainable Ag Expo on understanding soil health - what soil health is, how to increase it, and how to measure it. Dr. Decock is an Assistant Professor Cal Poly - Earth & Soil Sciences. Charlotte Decock holds a faculty position in soil health and fertility at Cal Poly. Her teaching and research focus on sustainable fertilizer and soil management in California’s specialty crops. She earned a Ph.D. in Soils and Biogeochemistry from UC Davis and a M.Sc. in Environment Engineering from Ghent University (Belgium). During the last 10 years, her research has focused on soils and soil health. Currently her work focuses on which soil health indicators are most relevant to cropping systems in California.

References: * 19: Healthy Soils Program (Podcast) * Charlotte Decock * Floor Management for Soil Health * NRCS Soil Quality Test Kit * NRCS Soil Quality Test Kit Guide * Sustainable Ag Expo

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Integrated Pest Management means many things to many people. In this excerpt from the 2016 Sustainable Ag Expo, Dr. Pete Goodell, Cooperative Extension Advisor with the University of California, reviews the history of IPM and what is IPM as a philosophy and practice.

References: * NRCS Service Centers in California * Putting the I Back Into IPM | Pete Goodell (Podcast) * Putting the I Back in IPM Presentation | Pete Goodell * Sustainable Ag Expo * UC Statewide Integrated Pest Management Program

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This podcast is an excerpt of the talk Dr. Kent Daane delivered at the 2017 Sustainable Ag Expo. Although Dr. Daane has laboratories on the Berkeley Campus and at the Kearney Ag Center in Parlier, much of his work is conducted in the vineyard. Recognized as one of the foremost experts in California on this controlling mealybug vectors of grapevine viruses, he shares the findings from some of his most recent research from the field.

References: * IPM Control of Vine Mealybug | Greg Pennyroyal, Vineyard Manager at Wilson Creek Winery (Podcast) * Kent Daane | UC Berkeley Department of Environmental Science, Policy, and Management * Sustainable Ag Expo * Sustainable and Organic Control of Vine Mealybug in Vineyards: Two Growers, Two Approaches * Vine Mealybug: What You Should Know | UC Agriculture & Natural Resources Publication

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