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Trees are a major cause of power outages. They're also a wildfire risk—when branches hit a conductor, a small spark can become a big blaze. Lynn Petesch of Overstory joins thinkenergy to talk trees, exploring how AI, satellite imagery, and vegetation intelligence help utilities prevent outages and reduce wildfire threats. Including Hydro Ottawa, who saw a 44% drop in tree-related outages since partnering with Overstory. Listen in for how we work together to keep the grid safe in an era of extreme weather.

Related links

• Overstory: https://www.overstory.com/

• Lynn Petesch on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynnpetesch/

• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

[00:00:00] Trevor Freeman: Hi everyone, and welcome to the summer edition of Think Energy. We are officially in podcast vacation mode. So while our normal day-to-day work continues, we're taking a brief pause from our kind of regularly scheduled episodes to recharge, to think about what's coming up in the year ahead content-wise, and just do some planning. But while we do so, we don't want to leave you without anything to listen to, so we look back at some of our favorite insights and episodes over the past year, and that is our summer rewind. So this summer, we're tackling a pretty significant and overarching theme that's really defining the current state of the energy transition, and that is the collision between digital infrastructure and physical infrastructure as it relates to our energy grid. It's this really kind of fascinating look at old versus new, traditional versus up-and-coming, and how we progress to meet the energy needs of our customer base, the growing energy needs as we electrify, as we, you know, expand, while also implementing new technology to protect our grid, protect our assets, to better manage things. So it's kind of a common theme in a lot of episodes that we have done in the last little while and a lot of the conversations that we're having. So in Part 1 today, we're kicking things off with a look at the physical world of our grid and how we're using new technology to protect it, and that is our conversation with Overstory. So we'll re-examine how we use high-resolution satellite imagery and artificial intelligence to act as kind of a shield almost, you know, helping utilities proactively manage our vegetation and reduce vegetation-to-powerline contact, which can reduce power outages, wildfires in many cases, and really has been an important tool for us here at Hydro Ottawa as well as in the utility industry more broadly. So sit back and have a listen to my conversation with Lynn Pedesch from Overstory, and enjoy this summer rewind.

[00:02:26] Trevor Feeman: Welcome to Think Energy, the podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

[00:02:58] Trevor Freeman: Hi everyone, welcome back. Today on Think Energy, we're going to be talking about trees. Yes, you heard that correctly—trees. I know this is a show about energy, but there's actually a very real connection between our electricity grid and those slow-growing, majestic givers of shade, lumber, fruit, and so many more benefits. Honestly, who doesn't love trees? But I'm not just kicking this episode off in my capacity as a tree hugger. Let's take a look at this through a utility lens, and I will use Hydro Ottawa as an example. Hydro Ottawa's service territory includes some very rural and very forested areas. Even our urban territory has a fairly extensive tree canopy. As a result, Hydro Ottawa trims about 60,000 trees each year. Now why? Because trees contacting power infrastructure is a big problem. Tree interference remains a leading cause of power outages for us. Strong winds force them onto our wires. Heavy snow or freezing rain builds up and weighs down branches, breaks limbs, and increases the risk that part of a tree may touch a line. And in some extreme cases, heavy storms can even send trees or branches crashing into our poles, damaging the poles. The struggle between power lines and trees—which again, don't get me wrong, we all love trees—has been going on for years. There is a constant struggle between trimming enough and getting the right trees trimmed and maintaining as much tree coverage as we can. In 2022, we identified a disruptor in this stance. The solution came through a partnership with Overstory, a company that uses satellite imagery, infrared technology, and artificial intelligence to help utilities manage vegetation and trim trees more efficiently. And the timing could not have been better. Just days after we started working with Overstory in the spring of 2022, the Derecho hit Ottawa. Our Ottawa-based listeners will remember this storm well. It was monumental in the history of our city and indeed for us as a utility. Winds reached 190 kilometers an hour. For our non-metric listeners, that's nearly 120 miles per hour. The storm ripped through poles, houses, and caused considerable damage to our city's urban forest. Overstory played a crucial role during the cleanup and in helping us level up our vegetation management strategies moving forward. We realized that the insights we got from Overstory would help improve our proactive approach to tree encroachment and hazard identification, and this is essential in this era of extreme weather events. We know that climate change is causing more frequent and more extreme weather events. According to Climate Central, the number of weather-related power outages in the United States increased by 78% between 2011 and 2021. And severe weather accounted for over a thousand outages across Nova Scotia just in the year of 2024. We want to keep you connected during these heavy storms, and that's why we're looking to organizations like Overstory. So what does Overstory do to help us keep the lights on? Well, without giving away too much, because we're going to get into the details shortly, Overstory, through a detailed analysis of the scans they do of our entire grid, identifies high-risk areas which we can then prioritize and better focus our resources when it comes to vegetation management. This level of monitoring and focus reduces the risk of trees from coming into contact with our poles and disrupting your connection to the grid. The results speak for themselves. Since partnering with Overstory, we've reduced vegetation-related outages by 44%. And that's only part of the story. As we'll discuss further, Overstory also plays a crucial role in helping utilities prevent wildfires in high-risk areas across North America. Similar to extreme weather, wildfire frequency and intensity is also increasing, in part due to climate change, expanding cities, and many other factors. And when wildfires do happen, these stories are heartbreaking. What many people don't realize is that lots of wildfires are sparked by trees making contact with power lines. And that is why Overstory plays a key role in tagging areas where those fires are most likely to ignite and spread, making it easier for utilities to prioritize trimming work and vegetation management in those areas. To dive more into how Overstory is helping us here at Hydro Ottawa and other utilities, helping us identify and act to mitigate risk associated with vegetation, I'm really excited to have Lynn Pedesch on the show today. Lynn is Overstory's Head of Customer Success and has spent the past 10 years building customer-facing teams with a specific focus on technologies that tackle the climate crisis. She began her career working for the United Nations and the diplomatic service of her home country Luxembourg, before moving into the tech sector to really work in environments where she could drive impact more quickly and at greater scale. Lynn Pedesch, welcome to the show.

[00:08:05] Lynn Pedesch: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:08:07] Trevor Freeman: Okay, so let's start at the very top with a high-level look at what Overstory does and how the organization came to be.

[00:08:15] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, let me tell you about Overstory. I mean, we are a vegetation intelligence platform. We use remote sensing and AI to give electric utilities, including Hydro Ottawa and others, a clear system-wide view of their risk. They always do it because they want to address three things, or sometimes more, but kind of there's always a few goal posts, and it's either improving reliability, reducing wildfire risk if that is if they're in an area where that is a concern, and/or improving operational efficiencies. So Overstory very much becomes a decision-making tool for their programs. We're used mostly by the vegetation management people, operations people, wildfire mitigation teams, and they each time they want to either use a program that exists, prioritize it, reshape their work, they might be preparing for a storm, they might be working on a wildfire mitigation risk. So the company more broadly was founded in 2018 by Aniek Schouten and Indra den Bakker—this was back in the Netherlands. And they were leveraging or getting really interested in satellite imagery and were very initially using it for deforestation purposes. So the climate resilience DNA has always been with us, but like any startup, we were looking at that kind of target audience that was most interested in what we had to offer. And pretty quickly, we landed on the electric utilities. They had the most pressing need to use remote sensing at scale to solve very big problems, honestly. And so we pivoted into that space of electric utilities. And then in 2020, Fiona Spruill, who's our CEO right now, she joined us. She shaped the company into what it is today, and that is really around building safer and more reliable operations.

[00:10:14] Trevor Freeman: That's great, and I want to dive into some of the details. Our listeners will know that we talk a lot about grid modernization here and talk a lot about better intelligence of what's happening on the grid in all aspects. And something we haven't really talked about and I'm excited to talk to you about today is the sort of vegetation management side of it. So really excited to get into the details, but before we do that, I'm always really curious to understand, you know, the people behind the conversations. How did you get into this area of, you know, high-tech vegetation management? I touched a little bit on your bio in the intro, but give us a sense of, you know, how did Lynn come to be in the space that you're in right now?

[00:10:52] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, I wouldn't say I grew up thinking I was going to work in this space, but I love working in it now. So actually right out of college, I went to work for the United Nations, but then in the last 15 years, I started working at high-growth tech companies, startups, and I've always been focused on leading and building CS operations, which is basically the customer success teams. They're the ones that are in front of the customers, implementing these software programs, kind of working very closely with customers, solving problems. And about four years ago, I decided that I did want to focus the rest of my career on solving the climate crisis more broadly. And I remember very clearly that I came across Overstory and there were two things that really resonated with me. One was hearing that utility-caused wildfires could be a thing of the past—like they are preventable—and the other thing was learning about this world where vegetation is the biggest cause of outages, which is, you know, I did not know before! And so I think, you know, having these very clear goals is very compelling to kind of work on something where it's so easy to understand what the big problems are. So I joined Overstory, and for the last couple of years, I've been building a team that gets really deeply embedded in these utilities, specifically with the vegetation management and the wildfire mitigation teams. And we work on their programs, we understand their programs, we help them reshape their programs, we roll out obviously the software element that is Overstory. It's been very fun and rewarding work.

[00:12:30] Trevor Freeman: That's great. And I really love, you know, talking to people from a variety of areas that touch on climate change and the climate crisis, and I think there's a bunch of us who share that passion of wanting to do something. I spoke with a group of recent grads about what a green career, what a career in climate change looks like, and really it looks like whatever you want it to look like. There are so many aspects that touch on this. So kind of neat to hear how that was your passion and then you figured out where it made sense for you to enter into the climate sphere, so that's great.

[00:13:06] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, I guess when I was young, I thought you had to be a scientist to work on climate, and I think now anyone can find an angle on how to contribute to it, and I think everyone needs to help contribute.

[00:13:15] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, any job can be a green job if you care about it and if you make it that. Okay, so let me get back to Overstory. Tell us a little bit about the evolution of the company. You talked about it kind of founding about seven years ago. Tell us how it's evolved and progressed over those seven years.

[00:13:30] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, so when we started working with utilities, I think at that point everyone was kind of assessing whether satellites could be a good use case for analyzing vegetation. We're now talking about 30-centimeter imagery, so the resolution of satellites has become incredible. You can really see branches, you can detect species of trees, you can see if they're healthy or not. So initially that was kind of our MO. We really were the leading provider to find out where the trees are, how close they are in terms of proximity to your network, so to the conductor, which is the risk. You know, we're looking at the terrain. If you're looking in the mountains in Colorado, you have very different terrain than maybe in Ottawa. So, you know, detecting tree species has been really interesting, detecting the health of trees, and how that decline is furthering. A lot of utilities are experiencing a lot of tree decline, die-off right now. So that was how we started. And then we started working with the really big utilities, and you had to think about this problem at scale. Now we might be scanning with satellites tens of thousands of miles at a time. And some of these utilities, they might have thousands, if not tens of thousands of trees that could pose a risk to their network. They might have had a really big, large weather event, a storm that knocked over some of their system. So at that point, it all becomes about that decisioning tool. Everything starts becoming a priority. And I think that's now where we're really leaning into, is making not just surfacing the data, but making it very actionable. Utilities have a lot to deal with. They deal with very tight budgets, they deal with crew constraints, they might have an aging workforce, there's regulatory pressure, they're really vulnerable to storms, increasingly there's a lot of wildfire exposure. So everything becomes a decision of where should I focus my attention, where can I get the biggest bang for my buck, what should I do, what should I not focus on. And that decisioning is where we really want to be a key player in.

[00:15:47] Trevor Freeman: Absolutely. And looking forward, I know we're jumping the gun here, we haven't gotten into the details of what you do, but looking forward, what is your vision for kind of the future of this space and how it's going to continue to evolve? Are you mature as a company yet or as a sector, or is there still a lot of growth to happen?

[00:16:04] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, I think the vast majority of utilities are now leveraging remote sensing. It could be LiDAR, it could be drones, it could be satellites, so that has become a pretty established tooling within the sector. I think what our vision really is, is providing utilities that share resilience-first picture of risk. So, you know, we imagine a world where you can kind of see the emerging risks and you can start becoming proactive. Being proactive in this space of vegetation management has been really challenging. You never know where the next tree is going to fall, and over the last couple of years, customers suddenly have access to this risk across the territory so they can start being proactive about it. As a matter of fact, that was a key use case also with the team at Hydro Ottawa, is to start launching these proactive programs. And I think when we think about it, we get very excited about the world in which anyone from the field crews to the vegetation managers to the operation folks to the execs to the regulators, the community partners who think about the safety of their communities, all have that kind of shared view of risk. Just imagine, they all understand the same risk, they operate off the same sheet, and they make the same data-driven decisions. That could solve a lot of problems, because right now the data is often scrambled across different people—certain people have access to it, and certain people don't.

[00:17:33] Trevor Freeman: Great. Okay, so let's get into the specifics here. I want to actually talk about specifically what Overstory does. How do you find—we've kind of talked about vegetation management, obviously you're supporting Hydro Ottawa and other utilities in our vegetation management programs—how do you find and tag high-risk vegetation? What is high risk? Like, what do you actually do on a day-to-day basis?

[00:17:58] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, that's the part that I deal with the most often! So excited to get into the specifics. Implementing with Overstory is actually pretty easy. I mean, when we start working with a customer, we need to know where your grid is, so we need to understand where your power lines are running. We need to understand the main configurations of them, you know, how tall are the poles, etc., so we can really compute that whole focus of where the trees are in relation to your power lines, to your conductors. That's all ultimately that we're focusing on. Increasingly, we're also focusing on the ground, I'll be talking about that as well. We then task these satellites over your territory. We do that during the leaf-on season, so that will be the summer, essentially. And then we run all these models. So we first need to understand where the trees are, what is their height, and what is their health. An unhealthy tree is much more likely to fall and cause damage to your power lines. We're looking at the fuels on the ground. We can help you determine what type of equipment you might need to attack certain types of vegetation, and we always compute that risk to the conductor, and we look at your right-of-ways. Now, I think the interesting part about your question is what is high risk, and that can be very different across different utilities. And I think that's the maybe unique part with Overstory, is that we can configure it to your standards. So every utility has very unique components. If you're on the West Coast and you're concerned about wildfires, your tolerance to risk will be very different than if you're on the East Coast where you're mostly concerned about not causing too many outages. Including that, you might have specific trimming specifications. The crews run around with chainsaws, they know exactly how far out they need to trim, how much they can trim, and there's a bit of a risk tolerance thing. So we build very configurable risk frameworks for all of our utility partners, so "high" means one thing to Hydro Ottawa, means something different to a customer in California that is facing a very different type of risk.

[00:20:04] Trevor Freeman: So you're out there assessing, essentially just for the context of our listeners, you know, we've got power lines that run overhead, they run through residential neighborhoods, commercial areas, but also forested areas, treed areas where there's lots of vegetation near our equipment. Your company really gets an understanding of the interaction between the vegetation and our lines, and says these ones are too close, or this is a tree that's, you know, not healthy and could come in contact with your lines based on your analysis. So help us, like let's paint that picture a little bit more detailed. How do utility companies take the information that you are coming up with, that your analysis is coming up with, and use that to run a vegetation management program more effectively? What does a utility do with that information?

[00:20:56] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, so we always center it around four main use cases. One is optimizing a program that already exists, it's creating a targeted program for you, it's quantifying your work, and risk reporting. And I'll dive into each and every one of them a little bit to illustrate a bit more what that could mean. So when we think about program optimization, a lot of utilities have existing vegetation management cycle, they might have a regulatory obligation to visit their territory every four years, for example. Now a lot of times, they've been doing their program the same way for the last 10, maybe 20 years, but the conditions in their territory are different, right? I mean, the things we're seeing, the storms are heavier, there's more tree decline that we're seeing right now. So they know they need to adapt and they need to adjust it, but it's big programs with lots of budgets attached to it, a lot of crews running around, so starting to think about how you can start pulling a circuit that you're meant to trim forward, or starting to tackle an area where you say is more residential, there's fewer trees, focusing on your high-risk areas first, re-managing these programs is one key component that we work with a lot of companies on, and thinking about Oklahoma Gas and Electric, for example, that they have a budget and they can only do that much with the budget, and it was really about reinventing where they can get the biggest impact. The second use case is this targeted program creation, and I'll use the Hydro Ottawa use case for that. You know, they suddenly had a view about where all of their hazard trees are. Hazard trees are these trees that are declining, they're dying or they're dead, and they could have an impact on your system. Now suddenly you know where they are, so you can start building a targeted program about dedicating some time and budget and crews to actually going and addressing those trees. That has a big impact on your reliability and on reducing tree-caused outages. And there's many others, sort of like hot-spotting is a very common term about starting to become proactive and doing something for a specific program. The third use case is work quantification, and I think there, when you think about it again, there's large contractors that are running around managing your territory, and now utilities for the first time often have that data to actually assess how much work there is. So that's really helpful in terms of negotiating your contracts, getting better bids. Some utilities say it's pretty hard to find contractors that want to work on their system because it's very hard to estimate how much work there is. Or they might have a budget to mow certain vegetation along a transmission corridor. Just knowing how much vegetation there is is a really helpful tool to address it and prioritize it in the right way. And then the fourth use case is risk reporting, and that is about getting that baseline view about your risk and tracking it year-over-year. And this is really where we want utilities to have that data to report it out to their boards, insurers, regulators, and often it's used to defend your budget, secure your budgets, or really have some data to kind of back you up on what the problems are that you're facing.

[00:24:26] Trevor Freeman: Great. So you talk about data, and, you know, each of those use cases that you mentioned or strategies that you mentioned really are about getting the right information in the hands of the right people to make decisions and sort of more efficiently and effectively make decisions. But it's a lot of data. And so Hydro Ottawa has over 6,000 kilometers of lines, you know this of course as our partner. We have a big territory and we have a fairly treed territory. That's a lot of data points. You're collecting a lot of data from your satellites, you're doing analysis on that. How are you doing that analysis? Is it—you know, AI is kind of a buzzword in every sector right now, and the utility sector's no different. Are you using some form of AI or machine learning analytics? What are you doing in terms of, you know, crunching the numbers and coming up with the right actions?

[00:25:25] Lynn Pedesch: Totally. Yeah, AI is a buzzword, but it's also very exciting. I think utilities have really embraced it already. They're using it for demand forecasting, they're using it for customer service, they're using it for asset planning. I mean, at the core, Overstory has been using AI to turn remote sensing data into operationally useful intelligence about their vegetation. So when you say, yes, Hydro Ottawa has that many thousands of kilometers of overhead lines, we need to rank it to them: This is your worst circuit, this is your worst area, this is the area where you have the most hazard trees, for example. So we can really rank order on a span level from the worst to the best, right? So that could be one thing. It's still an overwhelming amount of data. So where we started by using AI to kind of predict where the trees are, how tall are they, what was their relation to the conductors, now what we're really excited about or kind of leaning into with AI is how to intelligently kind of assess and prioritize risk. So not every hazard tree has the same impact. If a hazard tree falls on a line where more houses are dependent on, you will knock out the power of more people. So it's always a prioritization exercise, and leveraging AI for that is what is most exciting to us right now. And I think it's important to note that we also don't just want it to be a black box. All of the models we've built, they're always validated by certified arborists and kind of our utility partners, and I think at this stage, this is very important, because every tree that we find exists in the real world, and so validating this AI with ground-truthing has been really important for us to also build that trust in the technology.

[00:27:14] Trevor Freeman: That's great. And I do think it's helpful for our listeners to kind of understand the context before this. This work is sort of done—you know, in the absence of a tool like yours, it's sort of done, you know, there's a degree of manual effort here. There's a degree of patrolling the lines, there's a cycle of vegetation management. So if you've done a line this year, in three years or four years or five years, you want to be looking at it again. This takes a little bit of that—I don't want to call it guesswork, but it takes a little bit of that manual effort out of the equation and really focuses efforts in the right way, and it's only with the tools that, you know, you folks are using that you're able to do that volume of analysis and get that pinpoint accuracy. So that's fantastic. Let me get into the success of it all, like the big picture. We've obviously talked a couple times here that you're our partner here at Hydro Ottawa, so I know the success that we're having with you, but, you know, tell us some of the great success stories with other utility partners. Are you actually reducing weather-related outages? Are you seeing the impact of using the Overstory tools and methodology to support utility partners?

[00:28:28] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah. I mean, weather-related outages can mean many things. You have trees knocking over, like the pole might crack, etc. You know, those, there's a lot of things that can happen during a storm, and I've heard a lot of stories about some of the storms that Ottawa has experienced in the past years where, you know, you could have had anything and they're just heavier and the consequences are really strong. But what we can impact is the tree-caused outages. And that we've proven with Hydro Ottawa where, within a year, by focusing that targeted program on going to an area where you had a massive amount of these trees that were dying off, and at any point with just a little bit too heavy wind could be toppled over and fall on the line, we had a 44% reduction in tree-caused outages. That's a real, tangible number you can see. I'm thinking about a utility as well on the East Coast, a co-op that runs through very rural areas. In those areas, you have trees outside of the right-of-way that are toppling over onto lines, so tree-caused outages are a huge issue for them and it's really impacting their SAIDI and SAIFI, those key KPIs that utilities are always tracking. And by us just giving them a rank order of which hazard tree—they had so many of them—which hazard tree to even go to first, because if that hazard tree were to fall on a line, a ton more people are going to be out of power than if the other one were to fall on the line where you will have like one rural cabin that will not have power. That led to a reduction of something around 90% of tree-caused outages to 70%. It's still a long way to go, but it was a really tangible number that you can see, and it shows that if you then do that proactive work, you have a real impact on your tree-caused outages. And if I think about our customers in California, Pacific Gas and Electric for example, it's a lot about helping them understand where they don't need to go. So it's kind of doing something of a visual inspection and actually skipping certain spans. That can be in itself a really big use case, because right now, if you don't have an understanding about where your risks are, you might be sending trucks to roll for hours around areas where there is not really any tangible work to be done. So redirecting them to the right areas is where we've seen a lot of success there, and that obviously leads to budget wins, right? You'll be saving a lot of money by doing that, and those are kind of the use cases that we chase and that we kind of help prove the cases on.

[00:31:07] Trevor Freeman: Absolutely. Yeah, there's only so many resources you can throw at this, and making sure that we prioritize and focus those resources in the right spot is absolutely critical. You were just talking about the West Coast and you mentioned this earlier, I know wildfires is an area that is obviously of great interest for your organization. We're fortunate here at Hydro Ottawa in that we haven't really had to deal with that much, but anybody who's, you know, following the news knows this is a major problem for us. So how, what is your role in helping those utilities prevent wildfires? Maybe give us a very quick primer on why utilities are a factor when it comes to wildfires first, and then how your organization is supporting that.

[00:31:52] Lynn Pedesch: So unfortunately, utility-caused wildfires tend to be the most catastrophic wildfires because they're critical infrastructure, and we've obviously seen that happen across the world and in the US recently again and again. But utility-caused wildfires, as I said at the beginning, are also the actual wildfires that are preventable. So that's really where we're lying into. A lot of the forests right now, they've become tinderboxes. That is obviously because of fire suppression policies, that's because of forest management techniques that have been leveraged in the last couple of hundred years that are slowly changing at a different pace. Canada's had some, unfortunately, some really bad fire seasons recently as well. And so where Overstory wanted to place itself is in that prevention space—to even not get to the point where you have a spark, because there's a lot of tools out there that focus on mitigation and what do you do when you see that first plume of smoke coming up, and so we've landed in kind of really focusing on the prevention side so that utilities are hopefully in the future not the ones that spark any of those catastrophic wildfires. We've already always been looking at the vegetation that could touch your conductor, right? That I've been speaking about a lot. But now we're really excited for the first time and we recently announced that we launched a fuel detection model. So that's us looking at the ground fuel conditions, and those are actually usually the key contributors to the spark that spreads the fire. We're now providing that to utilities as a much higher resolution than ever before. For me, it's interesting cause I've spent a lot of time looking at trees, and now I'm going into the field and I'm looking at the ground, and it's a new perspective! But yet again, we could just, you know, we don't want to overwhelm our customers with a lot of maps and showing the fuel conditions necessarily, we can really help them identify those spans where a single failure would have the greatest consequence. So yet again, it's about how to make that data—there's a lot of wildfire risk maps out there—but make it a very actionable list of spans that if they were to tackle those, they are very proactively reducing the risk of igniting a fire and as a result obviously protecting their communities.

[00:34:10] Trevor Freeman: Got it. So it's not just about the overhead trees, branches, etc., contacting the line, it's, you know, if a switch goes, if an insulator pops, if something happens that will cause sparks, what's happening on the ground below that line, and how do we make sure it is able to withstand sparks that might happen.

[00:34:29] Lynn Pedesch: Exactly. If you have dry grasses, if you have sagebrush, if you have certain types of fuels, they're just much more likely to spark a fire and then spread out without there even being any trees. You have these prairies along Texas that can blow up in a fire very quickly, and the fires can spread to tremendous sizes. And so understanding the fuels on the ground is really important.

[00:34:55] Trevor Freeman: Super interesting and fascinating, fascinating work to get involved in. As you mentioned, this is obviously an area of, I don't even know if I'd call it growing concern anymore, great concern for the utility industry and all of us. So with the technology that's, you know, we talked about AI a little bit ago, it's literally growing before our eyes, it's really evolving fast. Do you see your technology evolving along with it? What's kind of next for your organization? You talked about getting into sort of the ground vegetation management—what comes next? How do you see it evolving as AI and tools evolve?

[00:35:32] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, I mean, if we see that the future is where we want to support a grid that is much safer and reliable as I mentioned, we also want to make sure it's resilient to the climate and the economic pressures that there are. So our initial focus and our continued focus and where we have a lot of our expertise has been with vegetation. Now we're starting to look at the ground fuels, then that naturally evolves into looking at the asset vulnerabilities, so, you know, the actual poles and if there's any failures potentially on those, as well as further weather exposures, right? It becomes then about the soil moisture, it becomes about the wind speed, it becomes about the rain precipitation, etc. So there's a myriad of things that we can start looking at and that we want to start looking at in order to get that more holistic view of risk and go beyond just vegetation. Right now where we're investing most heavily in is that wildfire risk. There's also the resolution that we see with satellites right now is at 30 centimetres, that might drop down to 15 or 10 centimetres, so the resolution will get higher. There's other sources that we're exploring already, sometimes flying aerial imagery that is at 5 to 15 centimetres. Then you really start seeing—then you can start seeing a leaf on a tree! It gets really impressive. There's LiDAR, there's lots of other kinds of remote sensing technologies that we're looking to leverage in the future. And then as a company as well, we're starting to obviously also expand internationally. We started working with utilities in New Zealand that have very similar problems and various regulatory changes, they also have a problem with wildfire risk. So that is another angle that at Overstory we're chasing right now.

[00:37:18] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that understanding of other assets beyond just vegetation has kind of been running through my head of—we talk about, and I think we've talked about it here on the show, if we haven't I should do an episode on that, like a digital twin. A digital twin of our grid, and really having a good understanding of not just, you know, a line drawn on a map of, "Hey, your circuits run this way," but really physically what's happening out there and it being able to sort of model that, interact with it in a digital way to understand if we do X, Y, and Z, what happens. So the technology that you guys are using to really get good imagery and understanding of what's out there, I think what I'm hearing from you is that could potentially be leveraged in that next level to understand what poles do we have, what health are they in, what's happening with that conductor, is it sagging too much, is it in good health, like there's all this opportunity. That's really fascinating to hear.

[00:38:15] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, already now when we look at transmission corridors, we look at the sag of these lines, and the terrains are also really challenging things to look at. So there's a lot of factors that need to be taken into account, and that can only expand as we want to look at risk more beyond just the vegetation element.

[00:38:34] Trevor Freeman: Very cool. Well, Lynn, very, very interesting to hear this. I'm really glad you came on the show today to talk to us. Fascinating to hear what Overstory's up to. I know that we're super excited to be working with you here at Hydro Ottawa, and excited for what comes next. We always end our interviews with a series of questions, so I'm going to dive into those, and here we go. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

[00:39:00] Lynn Pedesch: I was thinking about an author more than a book. My favorite author is Jonathan Franzen. If I would recommend one book, it'd probably be The Corrections, his most famous one, I believe. But they're like these chunky 800-900 page books where you kind of get immersed in these families and you feel like you know them at the end, and then they kind of, I think about them for like months afterward! They're really good reading, at least for the winter when it's cold and you spend a lot of time inside, so probably Jonathan Franzen's books, yeah.

[00:39:31] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, we're recording this just before the holidays and I think we'll be releasing the episode after, but winter is such a great time to curl up with a book and it's awesome to have a good recommendation of a nice thick book.

[00:39:41] Lynn Pedesch: It'll still be cold in January, especially in Ottawa!

[00:39:44] Trevor Freeman: Absolutely, absolutely. So, same question, but a movie or a show?

[00:39:49] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, I'm not a big movie buff, but I recently rewatched What's Eating Gilbert Grape. I don't know if you've seen it, with Johnny Depp and Leonardo DiCaprio, and I always felt like Leonardo DiCaprio should have received an Oscar for that performance back when he was 14, but yeah, it's a beautiful movie.

[00:40:07] Trevor Freeman: Oh, nice! Yeah, that's a bit of a blast from the past, but you're right, that is a fantastic one. If someone offered you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

[00:40:17] Lynn Pedesch: French Polynesia, because it's so far, I've never been. I had a friend who went, and I'm sure it's very expensive to go there, so it'd be great for someone to pay! Yeah, no, that's a place I'll go one day, so yeah.

[00:40:31] Trevor Freeman: Fantastic. Who is someone that you admire?

[00:40:34] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, that's a tricky one because I was thinking about people in my family, etc., but if I were to think about a public persona—and also a bit of a blast from the past—I'll think about Tina Turner. She's been my icon since I'm a kid. I was always listening with my dad to Tina Turner. And I think the word that I've probably most used in today's episode was like "resilience," and I always think about her as like possibly the most resilient woman in the world who reinvented herself and her career in her 40s and 50s, and is this complete power woman, you know, always done everything at her own terms. So I get so much energy from, not just her music, I've seen so many documentaries about her, and she's always been this kind of woman that fills you with energy and kind of drives you. So, I'm a big, big fan of Tina Turner.

[00:41:28] Trevor Freeman: That's fantastic. I have to say, that's never come up on the show before, and now I need to go and dive down a rabbit hole of learning about Tina Turner and listening to some music. That's a really good answer. Last question: What's something about the energy sector or, let me expand that to kind of the climate sector, that you're really excited about?

[00:41:47] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, I'm going to take a very high level, but I think the thing I've been following the most is like that broad topic of the energy transition, and I think the recent changes or like kind of the way we talk about it has become a lot more interesting because it used to be this kind of fluffy, big kind of vision, and now we're in that phase where it just has to be very practically implemented. And we're trudging along with it, no matter the political climate, etc., there is kind of a move forward. And I actually really like the way that, I think when I first started learning about it or getting interested in it, it was always about renewables, and now it's around just sort of like needing to build a system that is both like low carbon and climate resilient, and there's something in that like way we talk about it now that I find really interesting. There's immense amounts of innovation in it, so, yeah, I'm just enjoying following what's happening on that and how we are moving that direction no matter what's happening right now, so that's exciting.

[00:42:48] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, good one. I know my listeners are probably rolling their eyes because I say this all the time, but it's a very exciting time to be in this industry, and very exciting to kind of see the evolution of energy and how we're interacting with it, how it's impacting our society. It really feels like we're at an inflection point, and very great to have you working on one aspect of that that people probably don't think about a lot, so thanks very much for what you're doing.

[00:43:13] Lynn Pedesch: Yeah, exactly! When you start working for Overstory, the one thing that happens is wherever you go, you see trees and power lines, and I have a very keen eye for, unfortunately, trees that are in poor health right now, so that's one of the professional things I've developed.

[00:43:28] Trevor Freeman: You carry like a spool of red ribbon around, you can tie on the at-risk trees, just so someone could come along! Lynn, thanks so much for coming on the show today, really appreciate it. It's been great chatting with you.

[00:43:38] Lynn Pedesch: Thank you so much. Take care.

[00:43:40] Trevor Freeman: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review—it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

View Details

The era of top-down energy projects is over. Today demands collaboration, equity, and stakeholder engagement. And in the clean energy movement, Indigenous partnerships often lead the way. James Jenkins, Executive Director of Indigenous Clean Energy, joins thinkenergy to unpack the Regenerative Energy 2026 Report. He explores what a just transition looks like, how Indigenous communities are shaping the future, and what the industry can learn from working together.

Related links:

• Indigenous Clean Energy: https://indigenouscleanenergy.com/
• James Jenkins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-jenkins-27787913b/
• Regenerative Energy 2026 Report: https://indigenouscleanenergy.com/regenerative-energy-national-survey-2026/
• Bringing it Home Program: https://indigenouscleanenergy.com/our-programs/bringing-it-home/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

[00:00] Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

[00:26] Trevor Freeman: Hi everyone, and welcome back. We often talk on this show about the what of the energy transition. What needs to happen, what is happening, what technologies or initiatives are growing or up-and-coming. But it's also important to consider the how of it all. Energy systems are complex. That is something that should be clear in all the conversations we have around here, but it's not just technical complexity that we need to consider. Our energy systems are also socially, politically, and societally complex. It's not just a matter of picking the right technology and implementing it. If it was that case, we've got, you know, most of the technology we need, and we'd be in a much better position than we currently are. We have to figure out how we move these projects forward.

[01:14] Trevor Freeman: Traditionally, energy projects have been these large, top-down infrastructure projects. But increasingly, we're moving into a time when collaboration, equity, and stakeholder engagement are critical components of project success. One area where this can be seen—and, in fact, it's an area that's really pushing a lot of this change—is Indigenous leadership.

[01:38] Trevor Freeman: Over the past decade here in Canada, at least, we've seen a profound evolution where Indigenous communities are not just participants in the clean energy transition or kind of bystanders; they are actively leading it in many cases. That's not to say all the problems or challenges have been solved, but we're seeing a lot of movement here. And that's the topic of my conversation today.

[02:02] Trevor Freeman: To help us understand the scale of this movement, I'm joined by James Jenkins. James is the Executive Director of Indigenous Clean Energy, which is a leading organization accelerating First Nations, Inuit, and Métis participation in clean energy projects from coast to coast. I'm really excited to have James on the show today because his expertise comes straight from real, actual experience on these projects. As a proud member and former CEO of the Walpole Island First Nation, James personally drove the equity development for two 100-megawatt wind farms for his community. Today, he leverages that firsthand experience along with a diverse background in consulting, local government, and academia to serve as a national champion for Indigenous clean energy partnerships.

[02:54] Trevor Freeman: His organization just released their third national survey, the Regenerative Energy 2026 report, which provides a really eye-opening snapshot of how Indigenous communities are shaping Canada's energy future through innovation, equity ownership, and community-driven solutions. So today, we're going to dive into the findings of this report, talk a little bit about, you know, what a just energy transition looks like, and explore what utility and industry players can learn from these successful partnerships. James Jenkins, welcome to the show.

[03:31] James Jenkins: Hi Trevor, thank you for having me.

[03:34] Trevor Freeman: So, James, let's start a little bit with some background. Tell us about Indigenous Clean Energy and how your organization works to advance First Nations, Inuit, and Métis participation in the clean energy sector.

[03:47] James Jenkins: Sure. Indigenous Clean Energy is a not-for-profit organization, and we've been operating for about 10 years. So we started 10 years ago with the 2020 Catalyst Program, which was designed to develop a cohort of clean energy leaders coming primarily from Indigenous communities and businesses that could really shape the future of Indigenous participation in the energy transition. So we started with a cohort. It was led by just a few staff and our founding director, Chris Henderson. And this is our 10th year, so we'll be celebrating 10 years of the 2020 Catalyst Program at our national gathering in August.

[04:24] Trevor Freeman: Awesome. Congrats.

[04:26] James Jenkins: Thank you so much. So the goal of that program was to really expand the opportunities, the capacity, and the number of communities engaged in clean energy. And we have seen that progress tremendously over the last 10 years. We've seen federal grant programs to support that work also emerge as major contributors, and we've seen utilities across the country get on board and try to find ways to expand Indigenous participation.

[04:54] James Jenkins: So we've seen quite a bit of success, and with that success, we've grown as well. So we're now a team of about 35, and we're much larger. So we've expanded into a few other areas. One of them is youth, so we have two different youth programs. And we've expanded into energy efficiency as well, mostly under our "Bringing It Home" umbrella.

[05:16] James Jenkins: And the idea behind that is we've seen the success of the 2020 Catalyst Program and clean energy leaders really pushing the envelope in terms of what is possible when it comes to Indigenous-led generation projects. So now we're identifying a gap still existing when it comes to energy efficiency. And so, in a way, we're trying to replicate the success of the 2020 Catalyst Program. We'll be running our third year of the Project Accelerator soon. So that's geared towards energy efficiency; it's an intensive training program, and it comes with a grant.

[05:47] James Jenkins: And finally, we have a policy arm as well that's also very involved in engaging at the community and regional level. So that's through our Energy and Climate team, and we have a national hub that just completed a series of directional gatherings regionally. We also have a global hub as well that's active in Oceania and Latin America.

[06:09] Trevor Freeman: Oh, that's fantastic. Tell me a little bit about the youth programs that you're running.

[06:14] James Jenkins: So, we support youth across our programs, but we have two programs in particular that are geared towards youth. One of them is the Imagination Program, which comes with wrap-around supports and training. Right now, we're developing a micro-credential with the University of Saskatchewan for our program participants. It comes with a grant to lead a community-scale project. A good example might be a solar-powered greenhouse. Many of them are linked to schools, and, you know, we see the passion of younger members of communities that want to move these projects forward, but it's entrepreneurial in spirit.

[06:49] James Jenkins: The second is called Generation Power, which is a wage subsidy program for Indigenous youth, and we pair them with employers in the clean energy field. So some of them are utilities or renewable businesses; in some cases, they're communities or Indigenous businesses that are moving forward on projects. And it's more than just a wage subsidy; we identify all of the potential barriers for Indigenous youth entering these jobs and provide those kinds of support to increase their chance of success and staying in the workforce after the placement.

[07:22] Trevor Freeman: Oh, that's very cool. We've talked a few times on this show about building that next generation of energy champions and people that are focused, you know, on this new form of energy—this new energy transition or this new world of energy that we're moving into. So fantastic to see you guys participating in that. That's really cool.

[07:42] Trevor Freeman: So, I want to spend some of our time here talking about the report that your organization recently released titled Regenerative Energy 2026. So before we dive into the specific data and the numbers, let's talk about, you know, just that title itself and what the document sets out to achieve. So first of all, tell us about that term, "regenerative energy." What does that mean? Why did you choose that title?

[08:09] James Jenkins: Sure. So just generally, regenerative energy is the idea that these projects are doing more than producing electricity for the market and potentially bringing in revenue. They're also contributing to the broader ecosystem, which could mean the ecology of the landscape or a reduction of carbon into the atmosphere. So it's looking at the wider impacts and planning energy with that in mind.

[08:33] James Jenkins: In the Indigenous context, it goes deeper than that. We're incorporating sovereignty, energy sovereignty, and acknowledging that communities are increasingly expecting to be able to move through their energy journey on their own terms. And so that could mean other outcomes in addition to just energy stability and security. It expands to food security, but also ultimately the community being able to plan its future—how does energy fit into that?

[09:03] James Jenkins: I think it fits into what we're seeing in Indigenous communities in general, where there is a need to revitalize our cultures, our practices, our governance structures. We're finding that the energy sector—it's a business sector and an opportunity and an expanding sector—but there's also alignment in terms of values in many places, with communities looking to have an impact on their landscape, on the ecology, and this is a way to do that.

[09:30] James Jenkins: So regenerative energy is acknowledging that there is this revitalization happening. It's not as though our communities, our governments, our nations were extinguished over the last 300 years. What does it mean in terms of revitalizing those practices, and how do all of these projects and ambitions when it comes to energy fit into that?

[09:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I like that description. Thanks for that, James. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is it fair to say that the choice to use "regenerative" instead of "renewable"—which is fairly buzzy as a term, everyone kind of has renewable energy on their mind—was a deliberate choice? You're building more aspects to it; there are more facets of the description you just gave of regenerative energy compared to just renewable energy. Is that fair to say?

[10:19] James Jenkins: Well, and that's true as well. And as you've read in the report, we're seeing projects expand beyond just what we would term "renewable" projects. So that was the bulk of the projects up until recently, but now transmission lines and battery storage are becoming more prominent.

[10:36] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Great. Okay, I do want to talk to you about that. So my second question kind of at a high level around the report is, you know, one of the goals or one of the things you're doing in this report is really compiling and tracking national data around these projects. Why is that important? Why is that something that you're striving to do—to really track and compile that data?

[10:59] James Jenkins: Well, in the context right now, we have a federal government that is trying to identify meaningful projects that can have an impact on the economy, have an impact on spurring economic growth in different regions. And so it's a critical time for us to broadcast information on our dataset because collectively, these projects that have Indigenous ownership and co-ownership are a massive portion of the electricity generating infrastructure of Canada, and they have a meaningful impact on the economy, but also the ability for communities to finance their own programs, to reinvest in economic development.

[11:36] James Jenkins: So it's a critical time from that perspective. I think there's a need for us to be even louder because collectively as a nation, we seem to be looking for these wins that can be a shot in the arm. You know, we're worried about economic growth, and here we have many examples of projects that have Indigenous participation and that are having these benefits that are allowing different regions that are not participating in the economy in as active a way—this is a real opportunity for them.

[12:05] James Jenkins: And unlike many of the mega-projects that we're thinking about right now, these have shorter timeframes, less challenges, and the risk is much more manageable in comparison. So, you know, we are trying to point out that, A, these kinds of projects—which are renewables, but also battery storage and some of these other projects—these are important for the federal government to continue to invest in because they have been investing in it heavily over the last 10 years, and that's part of the success story.

[12:35] James Jenkins: But there is also a set of learnings that can be drawn from when we have so many examples of good partnerships between Indigenous and non-Indigenous organizations moving these projects forward. So I think when we look into the future as to how this should look, what does Indigenous participation look like for these mega-projects, we have a bit of a blueprint that we can draw from.

[12:57] James Jenkins: And so we are trying to bring more attention to this. I think it's really step one. The federal government can pat itself on the back that it's been one of the key reasons why Indigenous participation in the energy sector has grown over the last 10 years, but it's not getting the attention it deserves in the current conversation. So I think that's why it's a really critical time, possibly for other non-government actors as well that are asking, "Well, in the current global and national framework, what is the best way to achieve climate outcomes, Indigenous participation in the economy, greater social outcomes?" And so we do want to point to this as a good news story that has a track record, and that's what the data really does—it speaks to that track record.

[13:41] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, you often hear it framed, and in fact, just, you know, we're recording this on a Monday—just over the weekend I was listening to the radio, one of those call-in shows that really framed the choice as, "you know, we either invest in climate solutions or we focus on the economy." And I think you can probably say, "we invest in, you know, Indigenous partnership or the economy, or climate solutions." And what I'm hearing from you is it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. It doesn't have to be either/or. In fact, the data you're showing and the projects that you're highlighting show that all of these outcomes can be achieved with the right focus and with the right investment. Is that fair to say?

[14:21] James Jenkins: It is. And generally, the bucket of renewable projects or clean energy projects, the timelines are shorter, the cost is going to be easier to quantify, and the cost is coming down for these technologies—wind, solar, battery—in comparison to some of the other technologies that are being framed as the solution, which I think they will be. But framing it as either/or doesn't make much sense, especially when electricity demand is growing and it's an immediate issue.

[14:51] James Jenkins: So we should look at some of these immediate solutions and acknowledge it's still a question mark for some of the other sectors that are going to be involved in building out our electricity capacity. Mining, some of these other sectors, there are some examples of Indigenous participation, but not hundreds of examples of equity participation. And so, absolutely, I've been hearing those kinds of either/or arguments, or "no more federal grants, we should have access to capital instead." That could do a real injustice to the existing capacity that's already there, like the number of people in energy offices at Indigenous communities right now.

[15:28] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So let's dive into some of the data then. You know, you see headlines sometimes about major Indigenous clean energy projects happening in collaboration, and the data in your report really backs this up. I don't want to throw too many stats out there for our listeners, but just quickly, you know, there are over 350 medium-to-large electricity generation projects across Canada with Indigenous participation. We've got 250 of those already operational, the rest in either construction or planning stages. From your perspective, James, you kind of already touched on this—the role of the federal government driving some of this momentum and visibility—just expand on that a little bit. Like, how did we get to these pretty impressive numbers where we're seeing lots of these projects?

[16:15] James Jenkins: Sure, definitely. I think the origin goes back at least to around 2000 to 2008 when there was a series of Supreme Court decisions that ruled in favor of Indigenous communities when it comes to the duty to consult and accommodate—that's what the Supreme Court ultimately called it. So that's a framework that was very important when it came to Indigenous engagement in energy projects.

[16:43] James Jenkins: As the UN Declaration starts to gain traction in our country, it may become less important, but it was certainly a turning point. So decisions like Mikisew Cree up to Tsilhqot'in created a framework where communities could get involved and had the legal backing to do so. Some jurisdictions—with Ontario probably taking the lead at that time, BC following, and many others following that model—supported Indigenous communities so that they could be involved in what the Supreme Court was framing as consultation. And what that meant was having the capacity to be engaged in project review. And often, the developer bore the cost of that.

[17:23] James Jenkins: But there could be positive outcomes because it meant there was a framework and an impetus for communities and developers to sit down at the table when the development was taking place in the territory of an Indigenous community and their rights were potentially going to be impacted. So as that process became the norm in most regions in Canada, what emerged was this mechanism called an Impact Benefit Agreement as a way for the developer and the Indigenous community to sit down and say, "Okay, we've identified these impacts—and these are impacts to the practicing of rights that are enshrined in the Constitution, so there's this channel back to the Supreme Court decisions—so we'll have a confidential agreement called an Impact Benefit Agreement to offset those impacts," which never really fit the spirit of the Supreme Court decisions, but it was adopted all over the country.

[18:14] James Jenkins: And when Ontario and BC went to bring more renewables onto the grid more quickly, they were looking at different ways to ensure there was the kind of local participation, and so they experimented with creating incentives for Indigenous equity participation in the projects. Sometimes that included municipal participation as well, but we saw a large uptake in that. And that was something I was involved in; I was a band manager in my community of Walpole Island First Nation in the past, and while this was happening, I had some other roles.

[18:47] James Jenkins: But we saw it as an opportunity, and ultimately, there were many renewable projects entering the grid in Southern Ontario at a rapid rate. One of the things we were able to identify was that equity participation brought much more benefit to the community than an Impact Benefit Agreement. In the kind of projects we were looking at, it was usually tenfold if you quantified the net revenue from equity participation versus the takeaway from an Impact Benefit Agreement.

[19:17] James Jenkins: So that started to become the norm, and Indigenous communities started to see this as a more meaningful way to address the need for development to happen rapidly in certain regions and especially with renewables. So there was a period where new hydroelectric projects started to include some equity participation, and then we saw, with the expansion of wind and to some extent solar, that happening at a rapid rate starting about 2008.

[19:44] James Jenkins: It's expanded since then for a few reasons. So one is that over time, most regions in Canada have—most provinces have directed their utilities to put incentives in their calls to power to try to ensure more examples of Indigenous equity participation. The other possibility that's happened, which was more an Alberta story but it's been experimented with in some other jurisdictions, is a deregulated market where an Indigenous partner and non-Indigenous partner, or a fully Indigenous-owned project, can go to a consumer and negotiate a power purchase agreement, sell power directly. Sometimes having an Indigenous community providing power provides other benefits to the purchaser, whether it's the industrial or commercial partner, and so that led to quite a few projects as well in Alberta for completely different reasons.

[20:34] Trevor Freeman: Would those other benefits be like preferred rates? What are the other benefits that you're referring to there?

[20:39] James Jenkins: It could be preferred rates. In many cases, it's things like corporate responsibility, just the sustainability measures of having, you know, purchasing from an Indigenous partner. So that was enough of an incentive to really, you know, spur a market in those areas.

[20:56] James Jenkins: And then we've seen the federal government invest through grant programs in Indigenous capacity in the energy sector. So that has allowed communities in many regions to engage in these opportunities and just have the staff to do it. Because most communities are generally dealing with many, many issues all at once—it's like three levels of government all in one, and most services are underfunded. So being able to actively participate in these opportunities, ensure there is enough trust to move forward and that the community is coming along with it, usually requires some expertise and people in the community that understand energy enough to keep everybody engaged. And these federal grant programs have contributed to that as well.

[21:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So with this change over the last let's call it 20-odd years or so, is there a fairly established model or process now that you see Indigenous communities and partners working through, or is every kind of new project finding its way anew? I guess what I'm asking is, yeah, is there an established process? Is it kind of like you know how these projects are going to go now, given that there's quite a bit of experience over the last 20 years?

[22:06] James Jenkins: It's not an established process. And so we—for our Energy and Climate team—we engaged with BC Hydro and Manitoba Hydro to some extent on their recent calls to power and procurement because they're both looking at ways to ensure there's more Indigenous equity in projects, and there are different models to choose from. But there is the ability to look at what happened in different jurisdictions, draw from maybe what worked and what didn't, and so we're seeing utilities start to do that as they develop new procurement procedures.

[22:38] James Jenkins: On the partnership side, things continue to evolve, and there's always the risk that some of these partnerships may be less beneficial to the Indigenous partner. So another report we released six months ago with Clean Energy BC is an equity guide, and the target audience of that is Indigenous communities that are looking at these equity participation opportunities to make sure that the process is fair to them and transparent to them. So there is a framework in place, but I think there's always a need to ensure that communities have access to the tools so that they have a meaningful seat at the table. And it's not a given that those will be in place, so it is an area where we place some of our efforts.

[23:22] Trevor Freeman: And have you seen a change—like you talked about kind of the initial push for a lot of renewable projects being part of the impetus of seeing a big expansion here in Indigenous partnership—at least here in Ontario, which of course is where I'm sitting and we're having this conversation, there was a bit of a slowdown in that, but as we see demand significantly increasing, we're looking at more and more projects. So are you seeing that ebb and flow of project participation as well, or has it been pretty steady in terms of engagement over the last little while?

[23:54] James Jenkins: In most regions, it's been growing. So you look at the Atlantic region, Quebec is really pushing for Indigenous participation in renewables. In most regions, that's happening—Maritimes very much so right now.

[24:10] James Jenkins: In Ontario, we saw with the results of the most recent call to power quite a few northern projects, which is a bit surprising, but I know that's what they wanted to see happen, and it opens up some opportunity for communities in Northern Ontario. In Ontario, I think there are more regions where renewables are less socially accepted right now. And I talk to some people in Southern Ontario that are surprised how accepted it is in most of the country, with a few exceptions. So, you know, I think we might see ways that Ontario tries to draw projects in, whether it's within regions or partners where there is that social acceptance. But that's to be seen.

[24:50] James Jenkins: But Ontario, like other places, knows they need to meet this growing demand, and renewables are relatively quick to deploy, relatively low risk, and will likely be part of that solution, just like everywhere.

[25:05] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Great. Okay, I do want to talk to you about that. So my next question, you mentioned this a few times, that we're not just talking about solar panels and wind turbines, which I think is what most people think of when they think of clean energy projects, but you have mentioned a significant growth in transmission projects as well as battery storage. And there's a number of projects that are now kind of in operation with Indigenous co-ownership that fall into that transmission and battery storage category. So tell us about the economic opportunity for Indigenous communities of these types of projects, not just generation projects.

[25:44] James Jenkins: Right. So battery storage is growing more along the same trajectory as those generation projects have been in the past, and as the cost for battery storage has come down, it's become a very viable way for utilities and provinces to deal with the intermittency of electricity and increase stability while meeting targets for carbon emissions. So we're seeing more Indigenous leadership in that area.

[26:10] James Jenkins: And there's a premier project in Ontario, the Oneida Energy Storage Project, where Six Nations of the Grand River approached NRStor, their partner, to develop the project and then went to the Ontario government and said, "This is what we'd like to do, this is how we see it will meet some of the needs." So there was some real ingenuity in there, and I think in some way, that's an example of what could be the next stage in terms of Indigenous energy planning as that kind of capacity builds because Six Nations of the Grand River had quite a bit of experience under their belt in terms of participating in energy projects.

[26:45] James Jenkins: And then Ontario has also been the leader in procuring battery storage projects, and for the most part, most of them have Indigenous equity participation in those projects. A lot of them benefit from existing relationships between construction companies and communities that can look at these opportunities and co-design them together. And I think we'll start to see that in other parts of the country as that builds. But it is a major opportunity as the technology allows us to meet some of the need to stabilize the grid, and, you know, it could reduce our reliance on solutions like natural gas, so it's a real opportunity.

[27:21] James Jenkins: When it comes to transmission lines, it's a slightly different trajectory, but I think it goes back to the duty to consult and accommodate and parties sitting at the table understanding where do we go from here when there's a project that is going to have this enormous landscape impact and we can no longer do what we did in the past, which was ignore any Indigenous rights on the landscape.

[27:46] James Jenkins: And I was in Ontario for the last 20 or so years and witnessed the demand from Indigenous communities to participate in transmission projects. It wasn't passive in any way. So now we hear from utilities that are saying the right thing to do is to provide these opportunities, which is fantastic. But back then, it really was Indigenous people with the foresight and the stubbornness to for years say, "No, we need a solution that's going to meet all of our needs." And as we started to see some examples—Saugeen and Nawash being one of the first, and then others in Ontario where there would be this kind of Indigenous co-ownership—it gradually started to become more accepted.

[28:25] James Jenkins: And now it's part of the plan in many regions of Ontario, and this is a way to move the project forward, have Indigenous communities on board, and when they're sitting there as partners, there are a number of advantages that they bring to the table because in many cases there is knowledge of the landscape itself. And looking at preferred routes and other major decisions can really benefit from having these communities at the table providing their knowledge as opposed to sitting sort of on the other side of an adjudication table, which is only going to add risk to a project.

[29:00] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean we see all parts of the electricity sector growing, and transmission is one of those areas for sure that in order to support electrification across the province, we're going to see more transmission. So it's great to hear that this is an area that is growing, or getting more buy-in, or there's more partnership happening in all parts of the electricity sector.

[29:21] Trevor Freeman: So, James, you talked about regenerative energy earlier, we touched on that a little bit, and how that term is focused on being built on fairer and more equitable relationships. In your report, you kind of take this a step further by explicitly stating that this work seeks to advance the Truth and Reconciliation Commission—notably, Call to Action number 92. And so for our listeners who are not familiar—and please, definitely step in here if you want to explain it differently than I'm going to—but Call to Action 92 specifically calls on corporate Canada to adopt the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, to commit to meaningful consultation and consent, and ensure Indigenous communities gain equitable access to jobs, training, and long-term economic benefits.

[30:13] Trevor Freeman: So we often hear reconciliation discussed in a social or a political context, but your report really points to the actual act of Indigenous-led clean energy infrastructure and how that can embody this reconciliation in a material and meaningful way. And I apologize that I'm rambling a lot, this is a long question. How does building out physical infrastructure—like generation programs, transmission lines that we've been talking about, battery storage—how does that advance these goals that are kind of laid out and described in this particular Call to Action?

[30:52] James Jenkins: Mm-hmm. And you're right, the benefits of these projects isn't just the net revenue, but it's also apprenticeships, jobs, the business capacity that comes with participating in the project, and sometimes the ability to open up opportunities for practicing harvesting rights where, when Indigenous communities don't have a seat at the table, often the gate or the door is shut to opportunities and access. So it's a way to open those up.

[31:19] James Jenkins: And in my experience with projects in my community, when we were reviewing projects through the IBA or Impact Benefit Agreement process, the goal was always a number of apprenticeships, contribution to education, capacity, and it was always a good news story getting some jobs, employment readiness out of the project. And it was a remarkable shift to be sitting at the table as a partner and be discussing those same outcomes and really led to more of a spirit of cooperation. And we had some really great successes come out of that.

[31:51] James Jenkins: As well as community members feeling like, "This is an industry that I can go work in, and I'm not a stranger in a strange land. My community has a stake in this," and feel that sense of ownership but also home, which can be this indirect challenge when it comes to people entering the workforce and sticking with it. So that kind of ownership—it's part of the solution, how do we grow the Indigenous workforce? When the Indigenous communities have a financial interest in it, it really changes the picture quite a bit, and it really helps with the foreignness that can exist. And so we've seen the opposite in renewable industries and clean energy where many communities and youth are starting to see this as a viable career path and one that makes sense for them.

[32:38] James Jenkins: So, you know, and like I said before, when Indigenous communities are sitting at the table—and in my experience we had gone through project review on many, many projects because of the Impact Benefit Agreement process—we were able to bring that knowledge we had of project review to the table, which can help the project. So it was a real meaningful exchange of, "How can we meet these milestones on time? What can we bring to the table?" So there's that aspect of it, but then there's also the multi-generational knowledge that comes with living on the land.

[33:10] James Jenkins: And, you know, in some ways sitting down with elders, that does take a long time and commitment and is often different than how we would typically view going through the early stages of a project. But at the end of the day, it can lead to better outcomes and actually not take as long because the pathway to gain the knowledge for the least impact through a traditional process is also incredibly time-consuming. And so having an Indigenous party at the table that can bring the correct knowledge keeps things forward, making a meaningful decision from their perspective can really add value in that way as well.

[33:48] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's great to hear that you're seeing the impact of these programs on both the projects themselves and better outcomes in the projects, as well as building capacity and partnership in Indigenous communities. And I'm glad you kind of brought those youth programs back up; it's great to hear about those programs.

[34:07] Trevor Freeman: So, you have a report or you have a section sorry in your report called "Opportunities Unrealized," which really highlights major gaps or a gap for community-focused projects right now as different federal funding programs sunset, and you specifically call out three particular pillars that need renewed policy and funding commitment. So first off, you talk about 78 healthy energy housing projects that are mostly just small pilot initiatives. And that's looking at energy efficiency in homes, which you did touch on earlier, and how that's tied to Indigenous health and energy sovereignty. So how do we move beyond those pilots to fund these at scale? What are your thoughts on how we do that?

[34:53] James Jenkins: Right. So our approach is really, A, to support these pilots as much as we can so that we have that cohort of Indigenous leadership that has that experience in community, and so it can have that ripple effect where, when we started to see successful generation projects, some of them coming out of the 2020 Catalyst Program, other communities said, "Well, I want to do that too. How do I make that possible?" And then there's some leadership to grow from. So it's really catalyzing that momentum. And where do we start? So that's the piece in terms of making sure that there is a core group of energy leaders in communities that are almost at the stage where they can have a very impactful, community-scale project when it comes to efficiency that can be replicated and that there are individuals with this knowledge that are in the community.

[35:41] James Jenkins: So that's the first piece, but then the second piece and the other side of the coin that we're very active in is identifying what would the solution look like to make that kind of change repeatable on a national scale. And what we're generally pointing towards is some aspect of federal support, but also private investment as well. So what kind of mechanism can be put in place that will allow private finance to make sustainability programs for Indigenous healthy homes and buildings and infrastructure feasible?

[36:15] James Jenkins: And we think it is going to have to be some kind of partnership between the federal government to secure some kind of financing tool and then to bring that private capital in. And so we have a number of partners that's expanding in the finance sector, in government, to really look at what a solution like that looks like.

[36:35] James Jenkins: Indigenous housing, being a federal responsibility with the federal government having a large role in it, is certainly unusual and comes with some very unique challenges that make change at that scale difficult, but it's also an opportunity. And it does put the federal government in a position where it could lead a process like that and have some very large impact. So we want to make sure there is the existing community capacity for community members to know what meaningful change looks like at the local level, what the challenges and opportunities are that can contribute to that process. So that's the idea behind the Project Accelerator, but also design at the national level of a program that can lead to new builds, new sustainable builds, and retrofits on a major scale.

[37:21] James Jenkins: And there are interesting examples. I was in the US earlier this year at a clean energy conference and was surprised to learn that there were very large subsidies for energy efficiency that were available to Indigenous communities up until recently—I would say at a scale tenfold of what we've ever seen in Canada. So those kinds of programs are possible, and I think we need to think outside the box and think about how do we put this into action.

[37:51] James Jenkins: But ultimately, what we point out in those reports is that energy efficiency also leads to other very critical outcomes, including health and social outcomes at the community level. And speaking with communities, politicians from communities, housing tends to be a near number one or number one issue, with housing in need of repair being the core issue. And so ensuring that new housing is built with these sustainability measures in place will lead to houses that stay healthy for longer. And so, you know, it really goes much farther than just energy outcomes and that's why it's so critical.

[38:34] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's another example of it it's not an either or question here, it's, you know, do it right in the right way and have a focus on both healthy and affordable housing at the same time as making sure it's energy efficient and you're kind of achieving both of those goals. So that's great.

[38:58] Trevor Freeman: So, the second item you've identified in this section is, you know, a lot of northern and remote communities who rely on diesel for their energy focus, and our listeners may remember about a year ago we had a conversation with Quest Canada on this topic as well. And so, a lot of those communities are among the most affected by climate change and natural disasters, and you address what needs to happen from an early-stage planning and funding perspective to ensure that those communities that are not necessarily connected to a grid aren't left behind in this transition. Can you speak to us a little bit about that?

[39:41] James Jenkins: Absolute. So already the cost of diesel in these remote communities is very high. So it's already an economic and social challenge in the territories and remote areas in the northern provinces. And so it's an area where communities tend to be very engaged and have been since the beginning. So we've been engaged with northern communities since the beginning with 2020 Catalyst.

[40:15] James Jenkins: And I think it has a really—for them, clean energy has this impact on them like on a visceral level. For communities that have been able to implement clean technology and turn off the diesel generator for a while, they've talked about the impact of that silence that they haven't heard in so long, you know, the smell of clean air and that sort of thing. So there's this real passion, but also acknowledgment that, you know, they want to be part of a larger climate solution, they're feeling the impacts. And so there are many initiatives in the north, a number of which we've supported.

[40:53] James Jenkins: But there are many challenges as well in terms of logistics, the value chain. Transportation is a real challenge compared to infrastructure in the south. So because there have been so many projects and we partnered with the federal government through two phases of a program called the Indigenous Off-Diesel Initiative—and that was supported by a number of federal programs and we're just finishing off the second cohort—there is so much that we've learned through a couple dozen communities that have been heavily invested in reducing their diesel reduction.

[41:35] James Jenkins: And we're really at a stage now where we can learn—we can take stock of what we've learned through this process and identify how do we get this to the stage of successful projects. And we've learned a number of things. It's also bringing technology to these places that's robust enough to withstand the challenges and just be at a utility scale, ensuring different technologies can work well with each other.

[42:04] James Jenkins: But there's a real need to continue that growth, especially when there's been so much investment and so many communities are so close, with a few success stories and so much pride that comes with this. But ultimately, if they are left behind, the cost for them to power their communities with diesel is not going to become less of a challenge over time. It's only going to become more problematic. And so it's a real priority, and something that, you know, we need to keep staying loud about as well because these are where some of our real energy leaders are living and coming from when it comes to clean energy and ensuring that their priorities have a seat at the table.

[42:52] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, you mention success stories, James, and as we kind of wrap up our conversation here, I want to touch on that a little bit. So you talk about looking at this in perspective of the global stage, and one of your policy recommendations discusses Canada Global Indigenous Cooperation. And you outline that there are more examples of successful Indigenous-led energy projects in Canada than anywhere else in the world. How is your organization, Indigenous Clean Energy, sharing this expertise internationally, and what can the rest of the world learn about what's happening here in Canada?

[43:32] James Jenkins: So we started to learn just how far ahead Canada is in this area through participation in forums like the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, and we participated in a pre-conference with 88 global Indigenous delegates. And many of them were surprised to learn of these equity projects and opportunities that exist in Canada. For us, it can still be very frustrating, so it is good to put that in perspective in terms of—from many other jurisdictions, they're still at the beginning stages.

[44:06] James Jenkins: But we do have some programs in place, and for several years we've been supporting a sister organization in Australia called First Nations Clean Energy Network using a train-the-trainer model. So we've been active in Australia every year. We've been active in New Zealand as well. And we have some programming in South America in Ecuador and Colombia. And over the last year, we finished a program where we engaged with all of the provinces within Colombia with delegates from communities to assist in developing clean energy plans for their communities that they could bring to the government and and discuss a partnership framework so that they could start to reduce their reliance on diesel and other other carbon fuels.

[44:59] James Jenkins: And we supported those meetings with the government as well and supported delegates from these countries to also visit communities and see success stories in Canada. And the US is another area where there have been some really positive success stories over the last few years, and there were a number of energy programs that particularly rural and remote communities benefited from, Alaska having probably a slight majority and then others in the northern part of the Lower 48. I think they're going to start to struggle because those programs are sunsetting now, I think most of them have recently sunsetted. And so I think it should be a wake-up call to our federal government that there has been this investment in the form of grants from the federal government. If we don't have some kind of programming in place, we will start to see that progress recede.

[45:57] James Jenkins: But just in general, there's a lot that we can share with other jurisdictions globally, everything from what a good partnership looks like, you know, what are the learnings for meaningful participation. But we do have some examples that are very unique, I think, in almost every jurisdiction—Indigenous equity in transmission lines is is really unheard of, so so we should, you know, acknowledge that there are some things that we're doing well and um sharing that and learning what other communities are going through in other jurisdictions. It also really helps us in our strategy.

[46:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean we started this conversation with you describing what your organization does, and something that struck me is it's a combination of supporting projects and project models and helping things get up and running off the ground, providing education, and focusing on advocacy. And I imagine that, you know, even within Canada but also looking at some of the partners you've just mentioned around the world, the focus on, you know, each one of those individual aspects will vary depending on what the biggest need is in that jurisdiction at that time as things change, as funding programs change. So I imagine, you know, advocacy becomes more and more important as you see funding programs change or even just project structure change. Is that kind of fair to say?

[47:28] James Jenkins: Definitely. And our model is very community-driven with with community-tailored solutions and with education and capacity building at the community level being our our primary focus, which does set us apart from other organizations to some extent, but does reflect that that um every every solution is going to be different, and really bringing up that capacity at the community level is the most effective way to do it. And for these kinds of projects, there isn't one solution that fits everybody.

[48:02] Trevor Freeman: Is there, to kind of wrap it up here, is there, you know, one piece of advice that you'd give to—I know this is a bit of a big loaded question, it's hard to boil it all down to one piece of advice—but is there something that you would kind of leave with let's say a utility or a developer who wants to build a successful and mutually beneficial partnership with Indigenous communities? What's that kind of one piece of advice you'd leave with them?

[48:30] James Jenkins: Um, the one piece of advice, and sometimes I am asked that question, and I know there are developers outside of Canada that are starting to look at our market as things change globally. And what I would share, first of all, meeting with the communities is incredibly important. Community leadership, finding out what their process is for engagement and then establishing that relationship is hugely important. And um I think the advice usually stops there. I think many utilities and developers have heard that.

[49:07] James Jenkins: But what I would suggest based on my own experience is that engagement occurs from the very top of the organization, from the utility and the developer. And that if the C-suite isn't meeting with the Indigenous partner themselves, they should be fully aware and engaged in what's happening. And that's usually the recipe for success. And you know, for these opportunities, many communities have a history where trust is something that does need to be cultivated, and that would be my main suggestion. I think it's where really successful partnerships have their strength, is there's that level of engagement from the entire vertical organization of the non-Indigenous partner. And so when there is an issue, political leadership from the community, they know who to call and vice versa, and it doesn't lead to larger misunderstandings. And it can lead to some of the more innovative projects we've seen like Oneida Storage, and there are many other examples of that where the developer and the community, after a successful project, they sit down together and they say, "What's next?" And they want to build on what they've developed together.

[50:37] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I guess that's an indication of there actually being a relationship, trust built, rather than just kind of boxes checked and a process being followed. But if there's that actual trust built, it is more of a conversation that what next question can come up and there's sort of that mutual learning. So that's great. Thank you for that. So James, we always end our interviews with the same series of questions to our guests. So I'm going to dive right in here. What's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

[51:11] James Jenkins: These are the top uh these are probably going to be the tougher questions for me, but um so I recently read a book by Cal Flyn, a UK author from Scotland, and it's called Islands of Abandonment. And the subtitle is Nature Rebounding in the Post-Human Landscape. And what she does is, in an investigative journalist style, goes to places where there hasn't been human presence for 50 or more years. Some of them are no man's land in war zones, some of them are cities facing urban decay, some of them are environmental catastrophe sites like Chernobyl, but then finding that nature has rebounded and that there is remarkable biodiversity in some of these places.

[51:59] James Jenkins: So the message I don't want to take away from that is that if you get rid of humans everything will be perfect, because humans have had an impact on the landscape everywhere for much longer than we can comprehend. And in some cases, negative impacts to the landscape are because humans aren't doing what they were doing for a long time. So human intervention has a role and always will, but I think it's important to tell more stories that aren't a story of loss when we get to that point.

[52:36] James Jenkins: And for Indigenous communities, many of us have been going through a process of healing, and many of us are still in that process. But as we start to heal and and ask ourselves what's next, that's when we start to think about regeneration, so regenerative energy, revitalization of our culture and and that's what's next and acknowledging that practices that have been lost are near lost can be revitalized in a way that that is uh is incredibly meaningful. And so I was happy to see that story in a widely publicized book because the major story in conservation, but also climate and other areas, has been one of loss. And so, with all of this loss, and and in some cases, you know, a bedrock of tragedy and historical tragedy, where is the, you know, where is the good news story? And I think having these stories about how nature can regenerate is important. It's important to tell that story.

[53:50] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's fantastic. I appreciate that explanation, and these aren't supposed to be my questions to answer, but I do want to quickly mention a book called What If We Get It Right?—and I can't remember the author off the top of my head, but it really is a series of essays and poems and an exploration of like, what if we do the right things and we can address climate change? And I found it very helpful to kind of be able to imagine, yeah, this is what happens if we do the right thing, if we can address some of these challenges. So, along the same vein as what you mentioned. So, the next question is kind of the same, but what's a movie or a show that you've watched that you think everyone should take a look at?

[54:36] James Jenkins: Uh, that that's a really tough one. I do like movies and shows. Um, I recently started watching two British series, um and uh they seem to be very into murder mysteries in the UK, which uh isn't something, you know, normally my favorite, but they do it really well. So I I really liked um Shetland, which is a series that takes place in remote islands in Northern Scotland.

[55:06] James Jenkins: In some ways, I think even the setting that it's trying to tell, it resonates with our work in some ways and even the experience of living in an Indigenous community in a less remote location. So I enjoyed that, and then that led to um Sherlock, the the newer one starring Benedict Cumberbatch, which I thought was a very intelligent um show with a, you know, a compelling uh character with sort of superhero, but but somewhat comic book style realistic attributes, but also failings. Um, so I find I enjoy shows that are drawing from literature and putting them into today's terms and not worrying too much about um, you know, what's realistic and what's not, but really trying to—what would we how would this be written today? So I enjoyed that as well.

[55:58] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I like that. Um, if somebody offered you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where would you go?

[56:05] James Jenkins: So, Air Canada used to have contests for that, and we used to say Nunavut because it would get the most bang for your buck. You know, these are $4,000–$5,000 tickets, which speaks to the challenges that those communities face when it comes to decarbonizing the north. Um, for me, I mentioned I spent much of my childhood in Northern Arizona. I think at this time I'd probably use it for that, you know, I hope to visit again soon.

[56:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, fantastic. Um, James, who is someone that you admire?

[56:44] James Jenkins: Um, I've been grateful for wonderful mentors in the course of my career. Um, I'm really grateful that the founder of ICE, Chris Henderson, has dedicated himself to be a mentor for me and has has really he's committed to that um and I've learned a great deal from him.

[57:04] James Jenkins: Working at Walpole Island, there were a number of chiefs that I worked closely with and have been thinking about one, um Charles Samson, who's passed away, and he really came into his own once he was chief. He had run for a long time, over 10 years, and um really learned a lot from him and his perspective. But then, uh other chiefs, Burton Kewayosh and Dan Miskokomon really really supported me and helped um helped develop my uh the breath of experience that I draw from. And today, um the current chief, Leela Thomas, is really showing some really great leadership, and I think it's a real breakthrough in our region that most of the chiefs in Southwestern Ontario are female, which was um really more rare in the past. So that's a breakthrough as well.

[57:59] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's great. Uh, and final question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?

[58:08] James Jenkins: Um, I think what I'm excited about is that the door is open for Indigenous communities to really change the way that they're engaged with the economy, um for there to be some real opportunities for business development. Um, you know, for many years because I lived in the United States for a while, it felt like the overall economic development capacity of US tribes was far beyond what exists in Canada for a number of reasons. And and one of them is there were a few key industries in the US that the federal government, um it cultivated at different times, gaming being one, uh but it did lead to the infrastructure for US tribes to engage in business all across the country in a way that's still the exception rather than the rule in Canada.

[59:02] James Jenkins: So it is exciting for me to think about there being that shift and that um truly Indigenous-led projects stop becoming one-offs, um but they start to be that real uh, you know, Indigenous leadership becomes embedded in the framework of energy decision-making. Um, the idea of it becoming a career path becomes more solidified. So I think it was a dream at one point that some ambitious leaders had, like thinking of Saugeen and Nawash equity participation in that transmission line, there was no blueprint for that.

[59:39] James Jenkins: Um, but now that there's been a dream and we've seen it come into practice, so um it's exciting to think that we may continue to see that progress, and then in 10 years there there will be some foundational pillars for communities to really meet their own communities' needs on their own terms. Right now it continues to be a challenge in most places. It's uh, you know, what do we prioritize with limited resources? And um yeah, exciting that this could be a pathway to to start thinking more in terms of abundance.

[1:00:19] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean we started this conversation with you describing what your organization does, and something that struck me is it's a it's a combination of supporting projects and project models and helping things get up and running off the ground, providing education, and focusing on advocacy. And I imagine that, you know, even within Canada but also looking at some of the partners you've just mentioned around the world, the focus on, you know, each one of those individual aspects will vary depending on what the biggest need is in that jurisdiction at that time as things change, as funding programs change. So I imagine, you know, advocacy becomes more and more important as you see funding programs change or even just project structure change. Is that kind of fair to say?

[1:01:03] Trevor Freeman: James, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate you coming on the show and helping us understand the work that Indigenous Clean Energy is doing, some of the great success stories, but also a little bit of the path that's still to be walked in order to get to success. So thanks very much, I appreciate your time.

[1:01:21] James Jenkins: Thank you, Trevor, really enjoyed it. Thanks so much.

[1:01:23] Trevor Freeman: Great. Take care.

[1:01:25] Trevor Freeman: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Forget range anxiety. The electric vehicle market is evolving fast. Host Trevor Freeman welcomes back Plug'n Drive CEO Cara Clairman to unpack Canada's new EV policies. They discuss the surge in used EV sales and the truth about public charging stations. Plus, learn how low-cost salt-based batteries could disrupt the global auto industry. Discover what these massive shifts mean for transportation and the future of energy. Listen to the full episode today.

Related links

• Plug'n Drive: https://www.plugndrive.ca/
• Cara Clairman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-clairman-84967318/
• thinkenergy episode 71 (EV-olving Transportation): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/ev-olving-transportation/

• Geotab: https://www.geotab.com/

• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

[00:00] Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

Hi everyone and welcome back. So, any discussion about the energy transition or our efforts to reduce emissions to mitigate the impact of climate change or even just the ongoing adoption of what once might have been considered futuristic technology, inevitably will include electric vehicles, or EVs as we're going to refer to them today. Transportation is one of the major interactions with energy, especially fossil fuel-based energy that most of us have. Heating being the other one. For the average Canadian, how they move around, going to work, going to school, shopping, recreation, etc., very often involves getting into a vehicle which up until maybe 10 years ago, would almost 100% for sure have been a fossil fuel burning vehicle with a few very small exceptions. Today, while the majority of vehicles are still internal combustion engines, there is at least a noteworthy percentage of electric vehicles out there. We probably all know someone who owns an EV, or know someone who knows someone who owns an EV. EVs aren't actually all that new. The first EV showed up in the late 1800s, believe it or not, and at that point and into the early 1900s, it really could have gone either way between electric-powered vehicles and internal combustion vehicles. As we know, internal combustion vehicles definitely won out, and the bulk of the 20th century was all about internal combustion vehicles, and still today that's the dominant method of transportation. But, there is some alternate reality out there where EVs just always were the transportation method of choice. Imagine what the world would look like if that was the case here. But alas, that is not the reality we're living in. The more recent modern EV era kind of sputtered a little bit in the mid-1990s, there was a bit of an attempt, it didn't really pan out, but really got going around let's say 2008-2009, and it's been a steady crawl forward ever since. But, if you are listening to this podcast, chances are you already know all this and you've likely either skipped forward or are listening to me on two times the speed just to get through this to the important stuff, which is EV policy. You never knew you were so excited about policy. So, most of us, including governments, inherently know that the move to EVs is a good thing. It's good for the climate, it's good for consumers, they're kind of better vehicles. But, societal changes don't just happen, and they certainly don't happen fast. So, there has been a suite of policy approaches over the past couple of years or many years to help us get there and help us get there a little bit quicker. In the past year, Canada's EV policy has changed quite a bit. Availability mandates are out, and incentives are back in. Tariffs on Chinese-manufactured vehicles are mostly out, so things are definitely changing. And to help us understand these changes and what they mean, and also just to check in on the state of EVs here in 2026, I'm really excited to have Cara Clairman back on the show. Cara is the President and CEO of Plug'n Drive, a non-profit that strives to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicles to maximize their environmental and economic benefits. And they do this by engaging with Canadians to help dispel myths and fears and uncertainties around EVs using approaches like their EV Discovery Centre, mobile EV education trailer, and their EVs Are for Everyone tour. And this is really about bringing the EV to the individual, to the person, letting them test drive it, touch it, feel it, ask questions of experts. Now, Cara has actually been on the show a number of years ago where she talked to my predecessor, Dan, about the back story of Plug'n Drive a little bit. So, if you're interested in the organization, I encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. We're not going to get into too much of that here today. Cara is a fantastic individual. She's got more than 25 years of experience working in the environmental and sustainability fields, including at Ontario Power Generation where she was OPG's environmental lawyer and later in the role of Vice President of Sustainable Development. Cara was the 2017 recipient of the Women in Renewable Energy's Woman of the Year award, and the 2021 winner of the Al Cormier EV Leadership Award from Electric Mobility Canada. And as you will hear, she is a big fan of EVs, and she thinks you should be, too. Cara Clairman, welcome to the show.

[05:01] Cara Clairman: Thank you so much, Trevor. I'm pleased to be here.

[05:03] Trevor Freeman: So, this isn't actually your first time on the show, Cara. It's the first time you and I have spoken on this podcast, but you were on our show with my predecessor, Dan, nearly 5 years ago now, and you talked then about how you took Plug'n Drive from just an idea during your time at OPG, to really a national non-profit that's now celebrating its 15th anniversary. And for our listeners, if you're curious about the back story on Plug'n Drive, definitely dig back in the archives and listen to that episode. But, a lot has changed in 15 years, and a lot has changed even in the 4 and a half years since you were last on Think Energy. EVs have gone from kind of this niche idea you'd maybe see one or two around here and there, to, you know, maybe not quite ubiquitous and they're not everywhere, but it seems like they're going in that direction. They're a lot more commonplace. Everybody knows somebody with an EV, or you see them around most times you're out and about. Um, and they are also a very much talked about cornerstone of our national policy. It's an often-talked-about tool for decarbonization. We're going to dive into some of the specifics throughout our conversation, but just looking at the work that you and Plug'n Drive are doing from your EV Discovery Centre to your EVs Are for Everyone tour, how has your mission shifted? Are you moving from convincing people that EVs are a real thing that worked to helping navigate how to get one, what's the complex web of, you know, incentives, etc. What's the difference in your mission now?

[06:36] Cara Clairman: Well honestly, I feel like it's really uh the same in a lot of ways. The big difference, as you pointed out, is that we don't really have to explain what an EV is or that it's a decent car. You know, there's some sort of what I would call EV 101 that most people already know now. And like you said, most people have known somebody, or they've at least heard of it. But I would say there's still a high percentage of Canadians that have never ridden or driven one. Uh, and so that's an experience that we find is really the key, like getting the butts in the seats is really the key to helping people get over the hump. And uh, that's sort of the experience that we focus on. We really try to pair a test drive with every event that we do and encourage people to drive so that they can see the benefits go far beyond just the savings and the environmental benefits, that they're just really super fun cars to drive, and if you're a person that likes a quiet, peppy drive, this is the car for you.

[07:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Are people coming to your events knowing, "I'm going down the EV path, I'm going to buy one, I need to check this out," or they're coming in kind of thinking, "What are these people doing here at this event or in this parking lot?" Like what draws people to your events?

[08:05] Cara Clairman: More more of the former and less of the latter as time goes on, but it depends on the event we're at. So, if it's just they've made an appointment to come see us, which often is the case, we have an appointment system, uh, then they know a little bit, and they're thinking about it, and they want to try it. Uh, if we're just at a festival or fair, which we do, you know, we just are at some event, and they didn't come specifically to see us, uh, then we still meet a lot of people who are like, "What is this?" you know, uh, and so they're earlier in their journey. But what we find is that they need the awareness building, and then they might, you know, make the move a few years down the road, so it still helps them. It's just they're at a different step.

[08:50] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, for sure. No, that makes sense. Okay, so what I really want to dive into here today with you is kind of the shifting landscape, or maybe it's already a shifted landscape, um, regarding EV policy, some of the shifts that we've seen even in the last year or two. Um, so recently, you know, we're here in Canada, the federal government repealed the EV availability standard. So, this was the standard that said we want 100% of cars sold in Canada to be zero-emission by the year 2035.

[09:27] Cara Clairman: Right.

[09:28] Trevor Freeman: And we're moving towards more of an incentive-based strategy. So, a demand-side push rather than an incentive uh sorry, a supply-side push. Does this transition make sense for the average Canadian? Does it risk slowing down the momentum we've built? Kind of where do you stand on on this shift in our approach to EVs?

[09:49] Cara Clairman: Right. To be honest, I was a bit disappointed that they repealed what we call a ZEV mandate or ZEV requirement. We were hoping instead of sort of throwing the baby out with the bath water, they would just make the ZEV requirement maybe less onerous and extend the time or something like that, because the benefit of a ZEV mandate um is that it does require dealers to have the vehicles on the lots. And so it actually increases choice, it increases availability, and that's why you hear some people calling it a ZEV availability standard. Trying to explain it to Canadians because it got a bit garbled in the news where it was like, "We're not going to be able to choose a gas car. You're going to be required to buy an EV." Well, that was way down the road. And uh, what it really did in the early years was make sure dealers would have some. And uh, so that's unfortunate, but, you know, got to move on. So, uh, now we're we brought back uh the Feds brought back the rebate, and sales shot up. So, that's good news. And, you know, hopefully, the dealer networks will make the cars available uh in Ontario. The big challenge is that there's still a ZEV availability standard or ZEV mandate in Quebec and British Columbia, which means they get the cars first. And, you know, you do hear, "Oh, this thing doesn't work. This thing is no good." Well, then why do they get the cars and we don't? You know, so it does work. And so, unfortunately, like if you happen to be listening from Quebec or BC, you'll get more choices than we will here in Ontario, and I I, you know, I hope that that, you know, with the demand-side push that, you know, there'll be more showing up.

[11:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and we've been through periods where even if you wanted to get uh an EV, even if you wanted if you kind of could afford it, you'd decided this is the right option for me budget-wise,

[12:03] Cara Clairman: Yes.

[12:04] Trevor Freeman: you're waiting 10 months, or you can't get the option you want and and so

[12:08] Cara Clairman: Right. You have to be more tolerant of color or features or whatever. We probably will experience some of that. It's very brand dependent. Like, some brands are very available all across Canada, some aren't. Uh, so it's really quite varied. Um, but um the good news is right now um availability's decent, and there's actually lots available on the used market, and maybe we'll talk about that a little bit later to give people comfort around used, because it's really a great option for people to think about.

[12:49] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Let's definitely uh put a pin in that and get back to it. The other big shift I I want to touch on is um or at least it's a big shift that's getting a lot of attention, is the reduction of the previously 100% tariff on Chinese-made EVs down to only a little over 6% now, which effectively opens the doors to Canadians to um have access to these vehicles, so they can be sold in Canada. How do you see this impacting you know, availability and adoption of EVs? Is this going to be a game changer? Are we going to see those kinds of sub-$30,000 EVs on the market? Or is this kind of, you know, one small shift in the market?

[13:31] Cara Clairman: Well, the one thing it has done is created tons of curiosity and interest. You know, everybody wants to know about it, everyone wants to see one. Um, there are EV spies, as you may know, everywhere, like EV enthusiasts who are watch, and, you know, we saw some news report that there were a few Chinese EVs on a lot, you know, north of Toronto somewhere, and people are like, "Oh, what brand is this?" and But unfortunately, we don't know uh really the answer to this question that you're asking yet. Um, we're told that the first Chinese EVs will be here in the last quarter of 2026. Uh, and we don't even know yet if they might be brands we already have, you know. They could be Teslas, they could be Volvos or Polestars. Which we already have.

[14:22] Trevor Freeman: Yeah.

[14:23] Cara Clairman: So, uh, we're hoping we'll see some low cost, you know, BYD or Geelys or whatever else, you know, but we don't know. Yeah. And uh, and it will be exciting to watch, and, you know, we're watching and trying to find out when the first vehicles are going to be available or shown, but nobody knows the answer yet.

[14:48] Trevor Freeman: Are you getting like when you interact with people that are in the EV market, are you getting more questions about that? Are people kind of excited about this? Yeah, okay. That's good.

[14:56] Cara Clairman: Yes. And it's a mixed bag. You know, some people are very wary about it. Um, and what I try to say is look, we already have you know, these phones. You know, so I'm not worried about the whole security and that someone's going to be watching you know, that part of it I really think is a bit of a red herring. We've already gone there, you know, so so and people's information is out there. You know, I mean, so that's not a big concern to me. Um, I think uh the quality we don't have to worry about. Uh, these cars are widely available in Europe, in uh Mexico, and in South America, and they're good.

[15:47] Trevor Freeman: Yeah.

[15:48] Cara Clairman: So, we don't have to worry about that. It's just going to be Canadians, you know, be willing to give them a try, and we'll see. Most people say that they would, so we'll see.

[15:59] Trevor Freeman: And I guess the, you know, it's either you're trying that car or hopefully the presence of these cars, hopefully a little bit cheaper is also influencing what other manufacturers are doing and realizing, "I've got to compete in that marketplace."

[16:11] Cara Clairman: Right, exactly, Trevor. Remember, I mean, you might be too young to remember when the Japanese cars first came to Canada in the 80s. And everyone had these exact same concerns. And you know, what it did was it made the American brands improve. And so, you know, I'm hopeful, and just to remember, these are coming in a very low quantity initially. They're not going to change the market in these next couple of years. If, you know, they open up the door more widely, you know, that's a different thing. But for now, it's a really tiny percentage. It's like less than 50,000 cars, and it's something like 3% of the Canadian auto market, so it's tiny.

[17:01] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Got you. So, the the new uh or the the renewed incentive that the federal government's brought in Electric Vehicle Affordability Program, um which is providing an incentive for electric vehicles or zero-emission vehicles, um there's a strict $50,000 price cap for any imports, meaning some of those higher-end EVs that are made elsewhere won't qualify for this. Is is $50,000 the right price point? I look at just the price of vehicles in general these days, it's definitely trending up, way higher than I would prefer it to be. Is that the right price point given what's available? Is there enough availability under that price point? Um, and you know, does this affect the kind of conversation that you're having with potential buyers?

[17:56] Cara Clairman: Right now, there's not a lot available under that price point. I mean, I think it is encouraging certain brands to bring a version that is below the price point. Uh, and it has increased sales, so there obviously are some that, you know, qualify. Uh, the truth is, gas or electric, it's hard to find vehicles under that price point. Um, so yeah, would I have liked it to have been a little more generous? Sure. Uh, but it is helping, and I do see some automakers shifting prices. I mean, I don't know if you saw that Tesla now has brought out a car that fits just under there. Mhm. So it does do that, and uh it does just encourage people to look. And then maybe they'll buy a used EV. Yeah. You know, so it does sort of open the door, it encourages people to have a conversation, to look around, uh it sparks interest, which is a good thing.

[19:04] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and I mean, Ford is looking at how do we come out with a $30,000 truck, and that would qualify for this.

[19:11] Cara Clairman: And the Bolt qualifies, the new Bolt, and it's a great car, and the new Leaf, uh, you know, is coming under there. So, there are good cars under there. I mean, Canadians do love their trucks and SUVs, and unfortunately, those do not make it.

[19:30] Trevor Freeman: I know. Yeah, you're totally right. Um, so obviously Canadian manufactured EVs are exempt from that price cap.

[19:38] Cara Clairman: Yes.

[19:39] Trevor Freeman: Are you seeing a game of kind of buy local versus get an incentive? Um, you know, how does this come into play? Is that part of the conversation?

[19:51] Cara Clairman: Well, right now, buying local is just about impossible. Yeah. I mean, there's there's literally two vehicles that are made partially in Canada, and, you know, we've heard a bunch of announcements recently that Canadian manufacturing of EVs has either been postponed or gone off the rails altogether, which is really unfortunate, cuz I was really looking forward to being able to buy a Canadian-made EV. Uh, you know, these plans change, they could come back, you don't know. Uh, but right now, it doesn't look that easy to buy a Canadian-made EV. I mean, there's basically the Pacifica and the Dodge Dart. Mhm. You know, that's it uh right now. Uh, and you know, Toyota's going to make some RAV4s, which will be great. Um, you know, Honda just announced they're not going ahead with their plans, um so it's really unfortunate. The thing that I try to remind people is manufacturing is one thing, and EV adoption in a way is completely separate from that, Yeah. because we manufacture cars primarily for the US market. I mean, Canada's almost an afterthought. And so, that's the reason this is happening, it's because of tariffs, it's because of bu- you know, America First policies, it's because of, you know, US politics. And uh, it's really unfortunate for the Canadian auto industry, but it doesn't mean EV adoption won't continue to really grow. It just means we're going to be buying cars that aren't made here.

[21:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Well, and that's kind of the next place I want to go with this conversation is our own manufacturing industry, as you've just pointed out, is so tied in with the United States um manufacturing industry and Mexico. That's actually where I grew up in Windsor. My family is an auto family. My first job was kind of in the auto industry. Um, and the intricacies and and interties between those two industries are very, very tight. But, we're at this stage where we seem to be, not seem to be, we definitely are, moving in different directions policy-wise, especially when it comes to EV policy and trade policy in general. Um, that creates challenges and friction. We're trying to build maybe more of a manufacturing base here. The US is trying to pull that back. And that pull is strong. Yeah. It is, yeah.

[22:34] Cara Clairman: I mean, they have the population. I mean, we can't fight that very well, and, you know, we'll time will tell. I mean, Trump won't be there forever, but a lot of the damage will have been done. And I know there's a lot of folks really working hard on maintaining the automaker footprint we have here. It's a huge challenge.

[22:54] Trevor Freeman: Mhm. Yeah, is there a way to kind of thread that needle for pushing EV adoption? You know, we're kind of falling behind adoption rates that we've seen elsewhere, Europe, Asia, etc. Pushing that while still bolstering our own manufacturing base, trying to maintain these ties with our largest trading partner? Like how how do you I have to admit I'm not an expert on the industrial side, like on the commercial and manufacturing side of things, but from people that are, what I hear is, you know, we may have to let the Chinese, Indian, uh, Vietnamese uh, manufacturers come in and manufacture here in Canada instead of the brands we're used to being manufactured here. And that's something that could happen. That's something that would sort of replace I mean, the ones that are a real problem are the American-made the American brands, you know. They're really feeling the pull to manufacture in the US. Uh, so time will tell. Uh, you know, we may just be making different cars than we were making before. I hope we'll still be making them.

[24:14] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, well and there's I mean, you can kind of see the government trying to do exactly what you said, entice companies to do some part of manufacturing here. They've got this tradeable import credit system where, "Hey, if you invest in manufacturing in our country, you get credits to sort of buy your way through our import market. It can offset some of the tariffs that might be in place." You know, that's a mechanism to do exactly what you're saying we might see.

[24:41] Cara Clairman: Right. And some of those brands don't mind sending their vehicles anywhere from Canada. You know, they're not as focused on the fact that Canada has what's considered quite a small market, um given our population size. Uh, and I think in the future, well maybe the tariffs are going to change if the American if American politics changes. Yeah. You know, so I do think that's possible, um like I said, some of the damage will have been done if you know, if GM moves production to Detroit or wherever else, you know, they're not going to move back. But um you know, time will tell. I mean, I do think we'll have some manufacturing still in Canada and hopefully more than what it looks like right now.

[25:31] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean it'll be interesting to see. As you say, these policies may not be in place forever, but some of the reaction that is going to happen now in terms of do I move my manufacturing base back to the US, that will persist, and you're not going to make two moves, you're going to kind of make a one time tough one.

[25:46] Cara Clairman: No, and especially if it creates some job uh you know, a bunch of jobs in the US, the next US president, even if they're Democrat and they get rid of tariffs and stuff, they're not going to move it back. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[25:57] Trevor Freeman: Okay, so um let's let's kind of zoom back in a little bit here. So, Plug'n Drive, um you've been doing these uh EVs Are for Everyone tours, um kind of as we talked about earlier, giving people access that might not otherwise have access to to understand, try out EVs. And you've been doing this kind of across the board, including in smaller communities. Is there something that you hear differently in a small town, a rural area, compared to a big urban center, you know, Toronto, Ottawa, etc. Oh definitely.

[26:30] Cara Clairman: Well, the big thing is they don't have access, as you said. So in a smaller community, they might only have a handful of dealers, and those dealers may or may not carry EVs. And so they really don't get a chance to try them, and trying, as I mentioned at the off the top, is the key to buying. Yeah. And uh, whatever preconceived notion you might have had, you know, it kind of melts away once you get behind the wheel, even just the reality of like, "Oh, this is a great car." You know? And and so, whatever that experience, or whatever they thought it might be, it's it's gone. And uh, and so, it's a really important uh part of the process. And so, that's the main thing in a smaller community, they don't have that. Now, the other thing that we noticed is how far people drive. Now, people do drive farther in a smaller community, but what has surprised us is they don't drive as far as they think. Hmm, interesting. Yeah. And most of us actually don't drive as far as we think. Yeah. We might sit in traffic and stuff, even like us, you know, in big cities. Um, but we don't actually go that many kilometers, or not as many as we think. Um, and they don't either. And, you know, what they do is they, you know, into town, back and forth, for soccer, you know, same as anyone. Yeah. You know, so for for for sports or whatever for their kids, and then shopping or see Grandma or whatever. Um, and then once in a while, a long trip. And that is a thing that weighs heavily on Canadian minds is the road trip. Yeah. We are really obsessed with the road trip, and it's a one-off trip. And this is the thing we can't seem to shake loose, which is, you know, "What am I going to do if I need to drive to" and you fill in the X. Yeah. It could be across Canada, which hardly anyone does, or it could be like my trip to Algonquin, or my trip to Maine, or, you know, not right now, trip to uh, PEI let's say. Um, whatever. It's like, that one-off trip is so important to people, and we try to say, "Okay, yeah, that's more challenging in an EV. It can totally be done now, but it's still harder, and we sort of say try to think about your car for the 98-99%, not the 1% of trips." I might have even said this 5 years ago. Like, it's still a thing that we can't seem to, you know, stop people from fixating on, and we sort of say, "You know, with all the money you're going to save, you can" and we should talk about the savings because people do not understand that. Uh, all the money you're going to save, you can rent a car, or do something else, or what I do, once every 2 years, is swap with my brother-in-law who's got a minivan. Mhm. You know, and you can solve that problem for a one-time trip. Don't make that that's a bad way to choose a car anyway, gas or electric. Yeah. You know, because you're going to spend a lot more on gas hauling around a bigger, heavier car. Uh, so, even if you're not ready, it's a bad idea.

[30:04] Trevor Freeman: So, in terms of So, availability of charging is one of them, and there's that road trip idea for sure. There's also, I mean, we hear, and me working at the utility, as people are trying to put chargers in, we hear this a lot. People's preferred charging location is at home. We know that, that's where people want to charge, they want to plug in at home. Yes. Not everybody has a driveway or a garage, not everybody can install a charger at home. So, one of the things the federal government has been doing over the last little while is trying to increase access to public charging. Yes. Where are we at with our sort of public charging infrastructure? Is the network kind of built out to handle those road trips, or to handle that kind of, you know, someone who lives in a multi-res building, a condo, an apartment that can't charge at home? Where are we on that front?

[31:18] Cara Clairman: Okay. I would say, as a very early adopter, you know, I had my first EV in 2011, so, you know, from my perspective, the network's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was one supercharger, or like, fast, I mean, it was a slow fast charger, uh, in all of Ontario at that time. I mean, so now, there's more than 40,000 chargers across Canada. Uh, there's, you know, about a quarter of those are fast chargers at highway stops and convenient places. If you live in urban suburban Canada, and you commute, it's basically solved. Like, it's so good. I'm- and then, I'm sure someone will listen and say, "Well, for me, it's not." Okay. There- there's still gaps. Is it perfect? No. But it's really quite good, and you just have to go to PlugShare or ChargeHub and take a look, and you'll be shocked at how many chargers there are. I mean, there are a lot.

[32:27] Trevor Freeman: For our listeners, PlugShare and ChargeHub are both kinds of resources that map out all the chargers, the status, is it broken, is it fixed, here's what it costs, it's really great resources.

[32:39] Cara Clairman: Yes, everything. All the information you need. And all EV drivers will have that app on their phone. Mhm. Uh, then where it is challenging, you know, we got to acknowledge, even like an EV enthusiast like me, got to acknowledge, it's not perfect. Where the big challenges still exist is multi-unit residential, still challenging, and rural remote. Mhm. Still challenging. So, not so much for people who live rural remote, who want to, let's say, drive to town or drive to somewhere, to the city. That's okay. It's if you want to take a really long trip into rural, let's say, from Ottawa to Thunder Bay or Toronto to, you know, Winnipeg. That's still a challenging drive. It's doable, but it's hard. Um, if you're a commuter, which, you know, most of us are, you know, and you can charge at home, I mean, it's done. It's great. I mean, for someone like me, it's fantastic. I mean, I drive about 80 kilometers uh every week, and it's a snap, you know. No problem. Most of the cars have 400-500 kilometers range. I don't even think about it, even on like a minus 30 day. Where where I do think there's the most work that needs to be done is on the MURBs, multi unit residential. And some of the funding that the Feds have put forward for chargers is going into multi-unit, which is great. Mhm. Uh, condos will get done. Condos are getting done. Uh, where it's hard is apartment buildings. I mean, they're so there you need to search for public charging near you. Mhm. And if you're in Quebec, you're probably going to find it pretty easily, BC, it's getting better. Uh, Ontario is still a bit rough, and the Maritimes and the Prairies, super rough.

[34:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, we do, Hydro Ottawa actually was a recipient of federal funding to install public chargers. We did a lot of public chargers uh public access chargers in multi-unit residential, you know. It's so important, as you said. Everyone wants to charge at home. Exactly, yeah. And, it's the cheapest, it's and we haven't talked about super low night time prices, and being able to plug in overnight and, you know, right now with high gas prices, people are looking into it. It makes a difference. Well, let's talk about the price then, that's kind of the next barrier, is "Ah, it's too expensive, I can't get into it." Um, tell us about the economics around owning an EV.

[35:16] Cara Clairman: So, this is a challenge because people see the higher stick- sticker price, and they say, "Oh, EVs are too expensive." Well, they aren't doing the math, and we are trying to, you try to help, we're trying to help. There's other groups trying to help. We have a great calculator on our website to show the total cost of ownership, and to explain that yes, you pay a little bit more upfront, and the $5,000 rebate if you can get it drops that down to about $5K on average. 5k extra, that's the premium, yeah. 5k extra. Yep. Now, you would make that back in 2 to 3 years easily depending on how much you drive, because electricity is like 1/5 the price of gas, and even maybe more like 1/6 now that gas prices have gone up. Mhm. So, if you're paying $2 a liter, um which I hear, is what, you know, We're not far off, yeah. I don't know, I don't buy gas. Yeah. But, uh, $2 a liter, I'm paying the equivalent of, on time of use, of uh, 28¢, and now on ultra-low, 14¢. Um, I mean, a l- per liter equivalent. For the same driving range, yeah. For the same driving. And so, can you imagine that I can fully charge a 500-kilometer car for like 2 bucks overnight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you just can't believe how cheap it is. And if and so if we can get people to sort of understand the pay now to save later, which is hard for people. Yep. And if they lease, it's easier to understand because then they're not sort of shoveling out that money upfront necessarily. Mhm. It's a winner, you know, economically, you know, leaving aside the environmental and health benefits. Mhm. Uh, and so, we really try to help We have a great tool on our website that shows all this called Find Your EV Match, and you can compare any of your own, like all the historic gas cars, like any car that you own is in there. So, let's say you want to compare a 19 99 or a 2015 Civic to a Leaf or a Bolt, or whatever car you're thinking of, uh, you can do the comparison, and it will show you the savings month by month. Mhm. And then it will show you when your kind of hit that crossover and you're in the money. Yeah. And then you basically feel like you're earning money.

[37:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. I will say, as also, as an EV driver, when I I have two vehicles, one's still a gas car and one's uh an EV, when I have to fill up the gas car, I'm I'm always I compare it to my EV that I don't have to fill up, it's it's night and day when it comes to the cost. It's absolutely night and day.

[38:09] Cara Clairman: I mean, it's and also the maintenance. So, there's just no maintenance. I mean, obviously there's a little tiny bit. There's brakes, eventually, even that gets delayed because of the generative braking, Longer, yeah. and, you know, windshield wipers and tires, which you do anyway. I mean, I've now had a Leaf, a Bolt, a Model 3, and an Ioniq 5. Okay, and I have literally never had to do any maintenance except brakes, Mhm on any of them. Yeah, that's amazing. And, they've all been the first gen, right? Like my Leaf was the very first gen Leaf, my Bolt was a first gen Bolt 2017, and uh the Ioniq I think was the second year, which is what I drive now. Yeah. And uh, just nothing. And so, it just to me like, I'm almost like, "I can't believe everybody's not doing it! It's so cheap." Now, I understand some people, if you drive 250 kilometers each way and you, you know, I get it. It's not so simple for everyone. You live in a MURB, but if you live in a single-family home, it's a slam dunk.

[39:27] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So, we've kind of covered charging availability, we've talked about the cost implications. There's a battery performance question of is this battery going to be around for 10 years, the life of the car?

[39:39] Cara Clairman: Yes. Especially when used, people are worried about it.

[39:41] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, is the range going to get me there, and that kind of ties into charging? Where are we at? Have we seen that technology change in the 15 years that you've been in this space? Where are we at with that?

[39:51] Cara Clairman: Yeah. In the early years, I always wanted to be honest, right, because it doesn't help to be overly glowing, and then, you know, people are disappointed, you got to be forthright with people where there are pluses and where there are the minuses. In the early years, of course, the range was really low, and so that was a challenge for people who had to drive long distances. Now the range of the EV is great, that's not an issue for most people anymore. Battery life, people used to say, "Well, how long will the battery last?" And the truthful answer 15 years ago was we don't know, Mhm because there was no information. I mean, Yeah, we hadn't done it. We thought we knew because the Prius had a similar type of battery, as a hybrid, and we thought it should be similar, and those are doing well. Well, now we have 15 years of information, and the batteries are lasting so well. Now, you hear in the news the odd story about a battery crapping out, and it really is anecdotal, and so you can't pay attention to it. Um, it's a lemon situation, right, and that's going to happen, right, there are going to be lemons, just like in a gas car.

[41:03] Trevor Freeman: Exactly, yeah. You have to get your engine replaced randomly if you have a lemon, it happens.

[41:07] Cara Clairman: Yes, it happens. But the data will tell you, and Geotab has some really good data on their website where they studied how long are these batteries lasting, like 15 years later, and it looks like, for the most part, they're going to outlast the body of the car. Like, 20 years, no problem. So, this idea that you would have to replace a battery is really unrealistic, like, most of us will never have to do that. And no one keeps their car for 20 years, or very few people keep their car for 20 years. No, it's a 10 year window, and if you're like most Canadians, 7 to 10 years, uh, you're not going to be replacing the battery. That's not going to happen. And most of them, uh, sort of a typical battery loss, battery degradation over time is 1 and a half to 2% a year. Hm. So, you're going to see some declines, so let's say at year 5, you should be down no more than 10%, and uh uh, so when you look at a used vehicle, you can do a test on the battery and see how it's doing, something called a State of Health check on the battery. It's a test that any dealer can do, like any service center can do. And you can be confident that it's fine.

[42:33] Trevor Freeman: Mhm. So, let's say you brought up used vehicles a couple times here. Let's talk about that as an option for people wanting to get into the EV space maybe a bit more affordably. Yes. Like is the supply out there? Are there a bunch of these sitting around waiting to be scooped up? Yes. Great, now let's talk about it.

[42:49] Cara Clairman: Yeah, that's a great news story. So, there's there's um a lot of supply, uh, there's, you know, if you think about it, all the vehicles that come off lease or whatever, you know, even there's now 2023s, you know, available, there're there's a lot of availability. And so, you know, you just go on your favorite, you know, auto trader type magazine, and you will see, uh online, there's tons of availability, and uh, you know, what I say to people if they're worried about battery life, they do that State of Health check on the battery. If you're buying it privately, uh, you can ask. Uh, it's only about a hundred bucks, I think it's worth it. Uh, the other thing you could do, if you just can't figure that out or you don't want to figure that out, is just trickle charge the battery overnight and see, you know, what does it say, how many kilometers uh range you have, and compare that to what the manual says it should have. That's sort of a rule of thumb type of test, it's not as good as the actual test, but it'll give you a good idea. So so the, you know, people should not be afraid of a used EV. And uh, also, if you are really concerned, most of them have, you know, the 8 to 10 year warranty on the battery. And so, if you are really concerned, just make sure you're still in in warranty. Yeah. Uh, you know, don't go older than 8 years, and also check, you know, because sometimes there's a kilometer limit and a year limit, so it's like 8 years or 180,000 kilometers, or you know, they're all a bit different, but um check it, and uh that's a great way of sort of if you still have a year or two left on the on the warranty, then you're sort of safe. Yeah. to see like see how it see how it does. And price point wise, these are coming in at like a reasonable for a used vehicle, a reasonable price point. Totally reasonable, you can get an EVs in the 20s, in the well you can get the oldest ones even lower than that, in like, um, apparently my 2017 Bolt, which we still keep and use, we love it, uh, would only be worth like, I don't know, $12 or $15,000. So, they're cheap, and this one got the battery fixed. I always say to people, the Bolt had a recall on the batteries, 2017 to 2019. And most of them got the battery fixed, so, and then the warranty goes back to year 1. Mhm. So, you basically can get a used Bolt that's almost like a new car because it got a new battery put in, and so those are like gems to find, yeah. Uh, so, they're, you know, that's why we're hanging on to ours, it's great. That's great.

[45:41] Trevor Freeman: Okay, Cara, we're getting close to the end of our conversation here. So, uh you know, you've been at this for a while, 15 years of Plug'n Drive, um obviously an EV enthusiast on top of that. What's your general feeling about where we're at right now in 2026? Is it where you thought we would be, maybe looking back a few years ago? Is it, you know, we've got a long road to climb here, where are you? What are you thinking here?

[46:08] Cara Clairman: Well, I do tend to be an optimist, but I was probably a little overly optimistic about how fast the transition would happen, and we have had some bumps in the road. Uh, but I would characterize all the stuff that's happened in the last year or two as bumps in the road to eventually everyone having an EV. I mean, I do think it's inevitable still, and I think most of even the, you know, automakers would say it's inevitable. The cars are better, mhm they last better, they perform better, and even without all the environmental and health benefits, they have a lot of other econ- economic benefits. Uh, so I do think it's inevitable. It has been slower than I expected. Mhm. Uh, but, um, I'm still really optimistic about the future, uh, and I think Canadians are going to embrace EVs maybe sooner than than some folks, and and I think all what's happened with with Trump and also this war and all these things has actually got more people asking questions about EVs than ever before, so he accidentally actually spurred on the interest in EVs, which is funny.

[47:26] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and I think we've seen that over over the years, these sort of starts and fits, and no doubt there will be another maybe slow down, but I I tend to agree, we're we're angling in that direction, and there's really no pulling back now. I would, so my oldest is 13, and I remember probably 5, 6, maybe 7 years ago, thinking, "You know, wow, by the time uh he's driving, he may never drive an ICE vehicle, because it'll just all be EVs." So, we haven't quite gotten there,

[47:56] Cara Clairman: Yeah, my kids are in their 20s, and they both learned on electric, and they both have never driven a gas car, because we don't have one. Yeah, yeah, that's great. And so I am hopeful, and BC and Quebec have already passed what I would call the tipping point, mhm and so I do think that it's happening, and it's exciting, and it's also a great industry for young people to get into, so um there's lots of lots of pluses.

[48:24] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's funny on this show, this comes up a lot, and I think all the things that we talked about from utility space to all the energy transition things, EVs being one of them, distributed energy resources, right like if you're a young person looking of what do I get into, what's the thing that I focus on, my goodness, we've got a whole range of things that are are on the cusp, I think of of really taking off, so EVs being one of them.

[48:48] Cara Clairman: Electricity, energy, there's a lot of exciting stuff happening in decarbonization, and it's a great field for young people.

[48:55] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, Cara, so I'm going to throw a few at you here. Um, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Ah. Uh, so professional or personal? Well, you can go either direction. I'll even give you two if you want to do one of each.

[49:15] Cara Clairman: Okay. So, professional, uh, I read a book called, I think it's called, We're All in Sales. And it really helped me when I was starting Plug'n Drive. It sort of helps you get over this like, "Ugh, sales." Yeah. Which I think a lot of people have because they don't want to have to ask for money or you know, pitch for money or whatever. And it made you re- It was just helpful in that it talks about how, I mean, we're all in sales in one way or another. I mean, you have to sell yourself, you have to sell your ideas, you have to sell something. Some of us were more direct than others, but it helped me. Mhm. Um, um, and then, for women who are entering the workforce, uh, I read a book called The Feminine Mistake. And it's a play on The Feminine Mystique, which was a huge book in the 60s. Yeah. And, I found it really helpful as a working mom, and have little kids, and it's hard. It's a really hard phase. And that book really really helped me. Um, and then personal, uh, I just read uh a book that I really enjoyed, um, uh, it's actually just been made into a movie with uh, Sally Field, called Remarkably Bright Creatures. It's about an octopus, and it's from the octopus's point of view.

[50:47] Trevor Freeman: Oh, very cool. I just saw a trailer for this movie, actually. Finding it.

[50:50] Cara Clairman: Yeah. So read the book before you watch the show, Okay. because books are always better than the movie, and more in depth and everything. So it's a great book, especially if you love the ocean and mhm sea creatures and octo- pi? Octopuses? are so smart and it was just really adorable. It was a really fun book to read. It's not like it's great, it's written really well, but it's not hard to access, it's not, you know, it's it's great.

[51:21] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. No, that's a good one, that's a good recommendation. Um, so kind of the same question, but um, you know, for a movie or a show, is there something you've watched recently that really has stood out to you that you kind of think everyone should take a look at?

[51:32] Cara Clairman: I went back and watched This Is Spinal Tap, Nice. That's awesome. which I hadn't watched. And my husband had never seen it. Oh, gods. And I was like, "What?" Cuz you know, because of everything that happened with Rob Reiner, we went back and we watched it. Still hilarious. Oh yeah, so good. It really stood the test of time, so funny.

[51:53] Trevor Freeman: I've got This has come up before with other guests, I've got a list of you know, those movies that were so great for me as whatever, a teenager, that I'm waiting for my kids, ridiculous though. I mean, I have to warn you, ridiculous. I'm waiting for my kids to get old enough that I can bring them into this or that one, and that's on the list for sure. So we'll crank it up to 11 here. Um, so if someone offers you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where would you go?

[52:20] Cara Clairman: Oh wow. Uh, I actually just got back from Morocco, and it was so fantastic. Oh, gods. It was so beautiful. Um, but I've never been anywhere in Asia, I'd love to go to Japan. Mhm. I've never been there, and South Korea, because also they're very advanced in terms of technology and stuff, and I there's so many neat things, like autonomous vans and things that they're already using there, and vehicle-to-grid, and all this stuff, and at the base, I'm an electricity nerd, so I I would love to go there.

[52:55] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Uh, who's someone that you admire?

[52:58] Cara Clairman: Oh my gosh, there's so many people I admire. Um, Louise Arbour. Um, our new, for our listeners, our new Canadian, uh, Governor General, yeah. New GG. That's awesome. She is fantastic. What a role model for women. She became a judge from being a professor. Mhm. Um, she ascended in a way that not very many people have. She worked internationally, she's, and, uh, she's also a really nice person, a really good person. Yeah. And, uh, an accessible person, what I would say is that she's not at all arrogant, she's funny, she's nice to talk to. I had the privilege of working with her when I was a student. Oh, very cool. And, uh, she's just amazing, and I watch her with, she's inspiring.

[53:57] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's uh I I agree, I've been reading obviously about her because she's in the news right now, and for our listeners, that's our new uh Governor General, and if you're not from Canada, you can look up what a Governor General does for us here in Canada. Um, very, very exciting. Um, yeah, I agree. Um, last question, Cara. What's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?

[54:21] Cara Clairman: Oh my gosh, well, you know, aside from all the stuff we've just been talking about, Yeah. um, actually, I saw a YouTube video about batteries uh just the other day, a Chinese battery maker. And what they're doing in batteries is really exciting with salt, you know, salt based batteries that are going to be so cheap. Mhm. And they basically have it, like it's not this futuristic thing, it's a salt-based battery that costs like a fraction, and so the cheapest EVs will get made with those, and that's going to be a game changer. Yeah. That's pretty cool.

[55:05] Trevor Freeman: It is exciting to think about. Now that we're really focusing on EVs and letting sort of just that normal technological improvement iterative process happen, Right. how quickly we might see some of these barriers that we just talked about get solved.

[55:19] Cara Clairman: Yeah, they're putting their new technology into drones, into like air taxis and all this stuff, mhm. It's now, it's not sort of this Jetson's futuristic thing, it's like really happening, so that's pretty exciting.

[55:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, now the energy transition is here, we say it all the time on this show. It's here. It's here. When people say EVs are the future, I say no, they're right now. Exactly, yeah, exactly. Um, Cara, it's been great chatting with you, thank you so much for making the time this morning. I really appreciate your insight into what's happening.

[55:56] Cara Clairman: Yeah, my pleasure, my pleasure, nice to talk to you too.

[55:58] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, hopefully uh we'll talk again in a few years and be talking about how fast it's moved.

[56:02] Cara Clairman: I hope so.

[56:03] Trevor Freeman: Awesome. Thanks so much. Take care. Okay, you too. Okay, bye.

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review, it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

View Details

Electricity Canada CEO Francis Bradley joins thinkenergy to unpack the 2026 State of the Industry report, Forging Canada's Electricity Future. Why is public trust in utilities peaking in light of extreme weather? Why is a single word in the Fisheries Act halting major hydro projects? They dive into supply chain headaches, bureaucratic red tape, and how treating the power grid like core tax-funded infrastructure can make electricity bills more affordable for consumers.

Related links

• Electricity Canada: https://www.electricity.ca/
• Francis Bradley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francis-bradley-icd-d-ias-a-3617802a/
• Electricity Human Resources Canada: https://ehrc.ca/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

00:01 Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

00:27 Trevor Freeman: Hi everyone, and welcome back. Here's something you've heard me say before: the energy transition isn't coming, it's here now. And that's showing up in a lot of different ways—from the significant increase in demand that we're seeing driven by AI data centers and electrification, to the ever-increasing adoption of distributed energy resources by everyday Canadians in their homes and businesses. Even utilities looking to non-wire solutions as a strategy to employ alongside the traditional poles and wires approach to meet this growing demand. That's all happening now.

01:03 Trevor Freeman: And that really underscores the message that the time for talking about how we will eventually build out our grid to handle the energy transition has turned into the time to build and deliver on that talk. But, as with most things, it's never just that easy. This is all happening against the backdrop of an energy industry that is, to say the least, facing some pretty significant turmoil. What sector isn't right now? There's global conflict, there's a need for bold new policy direction, changing technology—these are not insignificant factors.

01:38 Trevor Freeman: And so, to help us understand where we currently are at and where immediate action is necessary, I think it's time we check in with a two-time previous guest on this show: Francis Bradley. Francis is the President and CEO of Electricity Canada, the leading voice for the electricity industry in this country. We've had Francis on the show before in the past and it's great to have him back here today to chat about some of these issues.

02:04 Trevor Freeman: Every year, Electricity Canada releases a State of the Industry report that serves as kind of a pulse check on our sector. You'll hear shortly in my conversation with Francis that there is something to the naming of these reports. In 2023, the message was "Build It". In 2024, they used the title "Getting to Yes". But the 2026 report, which was just released, has a bit of a different title: it's called "Forging Canada's Electricity Future".

02:35 Trevor Freeman: Now, to forge something implies heat, pressure, a lot of hard work. And this report does exactly that. It dives into the regulatory system that we operate in, the gaps in our labor and supply chains, and this new geopolitical reality that's pushing Canada to prioritize our own domestic production. But it's not all warnings. There is a roadmap, so to speak, in the report that specifies 18 recommendations that Electricity Canada proposes be addressed in order to help our industry thrive. As the need to increase our capacity and meet these rising energy demands intensifies, getting projects moving, getting shovels in the ground is absolutely critical. So, it's really great to have Francis here today to chat through that and talk about what's in the report, and I'm sure it'll be a great discussion.

03:26 Trevor Freeman: Francis Bradley, welcome to the show—welcome back to the show.

03:29 Francis Bradley: Oh, delighted to be back. Good to see you.

03:32 Trevor Freeman: So Francis, it's great to have you back on the show. It's always a pleasure to catch up and get, you know, your perspective, your take on what's happening in the world of energy, and particularly the Canadian energy landscape. So, we chatted just under a year ago, and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that was a pretty tumultuous time in the world of energy, at least here in Canada.

03:52 Trevor Freeman: So, just for context setting for our listeners as a reminder: we had just come out of both a provincial and federal election here in Ontario. Our various levels of governments were responding to actual tariffs and threats of additional tariffs. There was a lot of talk about national energy projects from pipelines to east-west electricity grids. So, with that as the backdrop, how has the last year been for you and Electricity Canada, being kind of the main association representing the electricity industry in Canada? Have we seen some of those big projects move forward? Is it all talk or have things actually happened in the last sort of 10, 12 months?

04:36 Francis Bradley: Yeah, I mean, this is a—this is a really good question and it's a great place to start our conversation. You're right, things have been pretty crazy this past year. But also, from the perspective of energy and electricity, there's also been some pretty significant developments as well, particularly I'd say the people who are responsible for the things that we care about in the federal government.

05:04 Francis Bradley: So we've, you know, we've got a Prime Minister that used to be Vice Chair at Brookfield; we've got a Minister of Energy that used to chair the board of Hydro One; the head of the civil service most recently was the President of Hydro Quebec. So, you know, among all of that massive change, we also saw now a team in Ottawa that actually understands our sector and that gets the challenges that we're talking about.

05:32 Francis Bradley: So, you know, have we seen significant projects moving forward? Well, I mean, part of the challenge, of course, is projects in this sector are very, very long-term. I mean, they take a long time. These are not, you know, kind of shovel-ready projects that are just sitting on the sidelines and immediately you get a go, you can move forward. These are generational investments. But what we have seen, I think, is some real movement by the federal government and a very significant change in terms of their approach.

06:05 Francis Bradley: Bill C-5, for example—the first piece of legislation that we saw moving through—that sent a real signal that the government was serious, as serious as you can be in a minority government situation. Short of changing a large number of laws, they essentially do a carve-out for those projects of national interest—or some people call them "PONIs," Projects of National Interest. So we saw addressing, trying to move that small set of projects more quickly through the process. We saw the establishment of the Major Projects Office as a kind of a concierge for these major projects. We saw the MOU with the province of Alberta also, I think, a sign that there is a real desire to see major projects move forward.

07:01 Francis Bradley: But the challenge here—and this is what I raised when I appeared before the parliamentary committee reviewing Bill C-5—is that's all well and good if you happen to be one of those PONIs. If you happen to be the proponent for one of these projects of national interest, that's terrific; you're able to move through this project more quickly. But you know, the reality is the vast majority of the projects that are going to make a difference for the electricity sector and ultimately for Canadian customers may not rise to that level of a Project of National Interest. And so, all of the concerns that we had previous to Bill C-5 really remain for the vast majority of projects that we're going to be facing.

07:44 Francis Bradley: So, yeah, have we seen movement? Yeah, I think we've seen pretty significant movement. We've seen all of the right signals, but as I said, the government can only go so far as a minority government. Now, that's today when we're recording this, but by the time this plays, we may not be in a minority government situation anymore. But that is the reality; it is difficult for the government to get legislation through as a minority, and I'm certainly pleased that one of the first priorities was addressing "how do we get projects built?" because that's something that we've been talking about for a long time.

08:24 Trevor Freeman: And do you see—you know, obviously Canada exists within the broader backdrop of global energy politics or the energy kind of situation? There's a lot going on there right now, of course, you know, conflict in energy-producing countries. Do you see us continuing to move forward on these? So, the last year was kind of a foundation setting, figuring out how to get major projects done, and now we're moving into hopefully implementation, or have we been knocked off course? Do you see something changing significantly in Canadian energy policy and politics as a result of what's happening globally?

09:03 Francis Bradley: Yeah, you know, again, a really good question, Trevor. Because certainly the short-term challenges that we've seen with now the war in the Middle East and the roiling of markets and the significant increase, I think if anything, it's going to prove to be an even greater impetus for us. I don't think it's going to slow us; it's probably going to get us to speed up. I think it certainly will with respect to our colleagues that are in the oil and gas space, but also for electricity.

09:37 Francis Bradley: I think it's going to increase the desire that people will have to see greater energy sovereignty in Canada. And so, a lot of the issues that we've been talking about with respect to building out, meeting the future demand, and getting things built were not directly addressing Canadian sovereignty, but they indirectly address Canadian sovereignty. And over the last year with the challenges with the Trump administration, suddenly questions around Canadian sovereignty are getting more traction. So yeah, I think what's happening in the world today—certainly the most recent past—is going to prove to be, I think, even more impetus for us to want to move and move expeditiously in this space.

10:24 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I guess something that I think has become clear to folks outside of us who kind of are in the industry is just how tied our energy reality and energy policy is to what's happening globally. And to your point, kind of that global policy, global economics—it's all intertwined and probably people are paying attention to it more now than at least in recent memory.

10:48 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and the good news, at least with respect to electricity, is we are not tied to a world market for electricity and electricity pricing the way like the oil and gas and the price at the pump. If you're filling up your car—I don't fill up my car anymore, I drive electric. But I, you know, I've got family and colleagues that are filling up and I'm hearing, you know, already feeling pain at the pump, which is, you know, the reality of having an international world market.

11:21 Francis Bradley: Our electricity market thankfully doesn't get that kind of—of an impact as a result of those changes. However, what happens in the U.S. with respect to supply and reliability certainly affects us, and it's something that we're watching closely. You know, we've seen cancellations of offshore wind projects, for example, off the East Coast of the United States. You know, we've seen a step back from a number of different types of technologies in the U.S.. So, while international affairs are not necessarily making me as concerned directly with respect to electricity, the North American picture, though, is raising questions with respect to reliability.

11:58 Trevor Freeman: We always go to interesting places during these conversations, right, Francis?

12:02 Francis Bradley: We do, I know. And I kind of—you got my brain going here. Sometimes I like to go down a rabbit hole.

12:09 Trevor Freeman: Okay, so I think that's a good context setting. That's a good place to start to understand where we are, what's been kind of going on, who knows what's coming up. But I do want to spend the bulk of our conversation here talking about Electricity Canada's 2026 State of the Industry report, and the title of that report is "Forging Canada's Electricity Future".

12:31 Trevor Freeman: So, not to spend too much time on semantics, but in previous years, you've titled these reports "Build It," "Getting to Yes" was another example. This year you've chosen "Forging." Is there a play on words there? You know, we're moving into a more high-pressure, difficult phase of the energy transition? Is there anything that we should read into that title, or am I kind of just picking at straws here?

12:56 Francis Bradley: No, you're not. We've been very intentional in terms of what we've been titling our State of the Industry. And so, you know, we've seen an evolution in terms of the thematic approach that we've been taking to this report. And so, you know, when I moved into the role of CEO, we began producing sort of these annual snapshots of the sector. They're intended to kind of lay out what we see as the current state of the electricity sector in Canada and our prescriptions for, you know, what should be done to be able to address our challenges.

13:30 Francis Bradley: And you know, if I look back over the last several years—and you noted some of the thematic approaches we've had in the past—2019 we started with, you know, it was all about "Resilience". 2020 it was about "Transformation". 2021 it was "Renewal". 2022 everybody was talking about net zero, so our theme back then was "Accelerating to Net Zero". 2023, "Build It," you noted that. 2024 was "Getting to Yes," and you noted that one as well. That was an interesting report because it really did focus on—it seemed to have a culture of "no" when it comes to "can we get stuff done?" and it attempted to address that.

14:14 Francis Bradley: 2025, last year's report, you know, as you noted, we were in an interesting place this time last year. You know, we'd just come out of an election. So at the beginning of last year, we put out our annual State of the Industry and it was focused on—we called it "Electricity is Essential" and it really was kind of our election platform edition for electricity.

14:38 Francis Bradley: And yeah, here we are in 2026, so "Forging Canada's Electricity Future." And now, you know, we were very conscious; we wanted to use that term "forging". And forging is, as we note in the report at the very beginning, it means to create something strong and something lasting. So, for example, one forges steel, but you just bake a pie. So, like, we're talking about what is going to be long-lasting and sustainable in terms of our build-out for the future.

15:11 Francis Bradley: So, it isn't necessarily about higher pressure, but it's that it's time to build. It's time to build now, but it's time to build stuff that is going to be enduring, especially given the moment we're in. And that moment includes—well, some things that we haven't seen for a while: federal-provincial-territorial consensus on the need to address long-term electricity needs.

15:37 Francis Bradley: You know, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, we've got people in the key offices in Ottawa, for example, that actually understand the electricity sector, and a federal government that has said that they're going to be introducing very soon—by the time this airs, it's probably already out there—a federal strategy with respect to electricity, something that we've been asking for for a while. So, it isn't necessarily about pressure; it's more about building something that is enduring and something that will last and something that is sustainable given the sort of the time and place that we find ourselves in.

16:15 Trevor Freeman: And in light of that, like looking at the fact that we are hopefully moving into this period of building, of growing, you know, something that jumps out from the report is trust in electricity companies. So, you note that trust is at an all-time high in the players in the sector, even as a majority of Canadians are feeling, you know, to put it in quotes, "financially paralyzed"—and that's from a 2025 RBC study. Trust isn't usually a word that we use for large institutions, large organizations, which a lot of our energy companies are. Why do you think that Canadians are feeling an all-time high in trust in their utilities right now, maybe more so than other parts of the sector? And how do we protect that trust, and I'm thinking especially as we move into periods of growth, periods of change in the industry? How do we protect that?

17:08 Francis Bradley: Yeah, trust is—it's an interesting concept, particularly with sort of institutions when we're approaching it from that perspective. So, you know, what we're talking about here in the report is a specific measure on favorability, and the favorability towards electricity companies specifically. And so, this comes from the polling work that we do, the annual polling that we undertake on behalf of the sector.

17:39 Francis Bradley: Now, polling is interesting; public opinion research is interesting. Almost 40 years ago, when I was hired into this sector, I was hired at the Canadian Electrical Association at the time specifically because of the work that I'd previously and quite recently been doing in public opinion research in the oil and gas sector. So, you know, when we've got questions about what our polling is, I bring both some historical perspectives and I perhaps bring some biases to these conversations.

18:13 Francis Bradley: So, what is trust and why are we suddenly seeing this upswing in favorability? So, my take on it is that it's all about reliability. My take is that favorability is being driven, I think, partially by extreme weather of all things. Because, you know, the last time we saw favorability ratings this high was following the ice storm in Eastern Canada in 1998.

18:41 Francis Bradley: So, customers are seeing electricity companies now, today, keeping the lights on, restoring power following extreme weather events. And they're being told by the media, and they see it and read it everywhere, that weather events are becoming more frequent, they're becoming more extreme, and yet the companies are maintaining reliability. And that is something I think the customer is feeling.

19:10 Francis Bradley: So, like, if you think of sort of a hierarchy of needs from a customer's perspective of what they need from an electricity company—and while, you know, it's going to differ from person to person in terms of what the ordering is going to be—I can guarantee that the top three will be environmental impact, cost, and reliability. And of those three, that last one is actually the first one: reliability. For the customer, they want all of the different attributes that you get from electricity, but the one thing that is non-negotiable is reliability; the lights need to stay on.

19:48 Francis Bradley: And you know, I approach this based upon the work that I've done, as I said, historically. I recall doing focus groups in the spring of 1998 following the ice storm, when we saw the last really major surge in favorability. And I was asking customers about their views, and you know, at the time, as I said, you've got people that are suddenly more favorable towards the sector.

20:13 Francis Bradley: And what I was getting in the focus groups, in the conversations, was people had seen a lot of images on television news and on the cover of newspapers and magazines back when people actually had hard copies of newspapers and magazines. Of images of crews doing heroic things—you know, like hanging off of helicopters, working on lines, and so on. And so, you know, I really do think there is a direct relation between people's favorability of the sector and their perception that given that reliability is so critically important, we as a sector seem to be doing really good stuff. And, you know, they continue to see images on the net as opposed to necessarily in hard copy newspapers of the sector doing incredibly, you know, difficult and challenging things to make sure that the lights stay on for customers.

21:12 Francis Bradley: But of course, it isn't all about simply favorability, and as I said, it's reliability, it's environment, and its cost. And the biggest challenge outside of that, I think over the long term, is going to be the whole question around affordability and cost to the customer. So, you know, you're asking what's driving it, I think it's reliability, but what's the major challenge going forward? I think it's going to be all about affordability for the customer.

21:40 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's this interesting, almost ironic feature of extreme weather, of these major outage events—and you know, I'm speaking from Ottawa, we've had our share in the last number of years, let me tell you—that it does force the customers to think more about what it takes to keep the lights on. And if everything's running smoothly and there's no bumps in the road at all, it almost gets forgotten a little bit. But it takes those big events to sort of bring that back to the forefront and there's inconvenience, of course, in the outage, but it also helps people to understand, yeah, this is what is required for this, you know, a grid that is complex and difficult to keep up and running.

22:24 Trevor Freeman: So, I kind of hear what you're saying, affordability you've highlighted a couple times there in the last little bit, and that's kind of where I want to go next. That continues to be top of mind for customers, and you've highlighted it, we hear that from our customers, we see that in the kind of conversations that we're having with our customers. Electricity Canada runs a national customer survey; back in 2024, 84% of respondents to your survey said that an increase in my electricity bill would have a major impact on my finances. So, you know, customers are saying, we'll feel it if electricity bills go up.

23:02 Trevor Freeman: And there's a tension in that because for the foreseeable future, affordability and the need to invest in the grid to build, to grow—we talk about that a lot on the show about how we kind of need to allow for more capacity, accept more distributed energy resources—those two things are going to be in tension with each other. How can utilities manage that, work with other stakeholders—for example, like various levels of government—how do we work together to ensure that the need to expand and invest in the grid doesn't impact rates too dramatically and impact affordability that customers say is so important?

23:44 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and that's the—that's the, you know, that's I think probably the most fundamental challenge that the sector is going to face in the years ahead, the whole challenge around affordability. But sort of I come at this in a bit of a different way, and that is not, you know, not the question of what the customer is paying but what the customer should be paying versus the taxpayer, right?

24:14 Francis Bradley: And so, the question I have is, you know, shouldn't we be looking at treating electricity as part of our core infrastructure? Right? And you know, we've actually started to have conversations around this with respect to our, you know, our defense spending targets. We're going to go from 2 to 3.5%, but that includes, you know, sort of all the supporting infrastructure for defense. Well, geez, shouldn't that actually include, you know, the defense infrastructure, the defense critical electricity infrastructure?

24:49 Francis Bradley: So, you know, if we're thinking about infrastructure and electricity being part of the core infrastructure, as we do with roads or ports or public transit, for example—core infrastructure that is required to enable the economic prosperity of the country—then we shouldn't be looking at relying solely on the kilowatt-hours paid by customers. Because this isn't simply, you know, delivering electricity to a customer; it is ensuring that we have the infrastructure that the economy as a whole needs.

25:27 Francis Bradley: So, you know, just like transit users today, when they buy their transit pass, are not paying 100% of the cost because we recognize that that's actually part of core infrastructure for a country and it needs tax-based funding. So, you know, we need to be looking at more creative ways to be able to address what that funding gap is going to be.

25:54 Francis Bradley: You know, we've got existing tools; we've got the clean technology and clean electricity investment tax credits, we've got the Canada Infrastructure Bank, we've got indigenous loan guarantees—there's a number of other programs that the federal government has in place. But we're going to need to do a lot more if we're going to actually look at kind of growing the Canadian economy and bringing in the investments of basically $2 trillion over the next 25 years. All of that $2 trillion can't go on the rate base, right? But by the same token, when you look at every other piece of core infrastructure that we've got, it is paid for by a mix of user fees and tax base because this is what one does as a nation—one supports the core infrastructure that we've got. So, I think that's how we're going to have to address this in the future. It is kind of having a clear understanding of what one does as a country for our infrastructure, and so it should be paid for as infrastructure as opposed to consumption of electricity by consumers.

27:01 Trevor Freeman: Now, in Canada—like a lot of other jurisdictions—energy is a provincial jurisdiction. So, the kind of change and change in thinking that you're talking about, it's not just one conversation you need to have with the federal government across the country; you're talking about multiple different stakeholders and players and trying to move that conversation. How do you go about that? And I know you're not starting from scratch; this is a conversation you've been having for a while. What does that change look like in a country like Canada where we've got so many different jurisdictions?

27:37 Francis Bradley: Yeah, well, you know, we've done this before. And we've done this with other sectors. No, I mean we have, right? You quite rightly point out that electricity is a provincial responsibility according to the Canadian Constitution. But guess what? So is health. So is public—I mentioned public transit. You know, when we build the next LRT line, it's not going to be all paid for by transit users in Ontario. Some of it is going to be paid for by the provincial government and some of it is going to be paid for by the federal government. You're not seeing any major transit infrastructure in this country—and that is not a federal responsibility—not being built today without some federal contribution.

28:23 Francis Bradley: So, we're not starting from zero from a conceptual standpoint; we do this with many other sectors, but it is those sectors that we know are the kind of the core infrastructure that we require as a country, you know, from health care to public transit to roads and so on. And the conversations are not, you know, not just starting tomorrow, right? These are conversations that have been going on for quite some time.

28:50 Francis Bradley: But yeah, you know, it's interesting when talking to folks that don't spend a lot of time in this space, they ask, like you did, they ask the question, "Wait a second, this is provincial responsibility, isn't it going to be just like an absolute bear to try and have this conversation?" Yeah, not so much. It's like, this is—we've had this conversation on a whole pile of other files where we recognized that we needed a more holistic approach and a national approach that brings together the federal government, the provincial government, the regional municipal governments, and the local community.

29:26 Trevor Freeman: Great. So, pulling on that same thread, regulatory constraints—we all like to talk about regulatory constraints, it's a reality in our industry. The report talks about this being a system that chooses delays. So, tell me a little bit about that and about some of the specific challenges that utilities are hitting right now when they're trying to get projects moving, trying to get things off the ground, and what do you recommend, what does Electricity Canada recommend to streamline that process and get things moving?

30:00 Francis Bradley: Right. So, you know, and we talked earlier about some of the themes of the previous reports—one of them was thematically called "Getting to Yes". Because yeah, I mean, at least our view is by and large the approval regimes that we've got for projects in this country are biased towards figuring out how to turn down projects. You know, what are all of the ways that one can say no, as opposed to like, how do we actually get to yes, and how do we use these—and that isn't to say that it should automatically be a yes or automatically be a no. It should be a clear process that isn't biased one way or the other.

30:41 Francis Bradley: And also, you know, the way we've kind of built this system over the years, we've got multiple levels of government—we were chatting about that just a moment ago with respect to funding—from municipal to regional to provincial and territorial and federal government. And on any project, there's requirement, there's regulations, and there's requirement for approvals and need for coordination, and so inevitably right off the bat, it's going to result in delays. Delays, as I always like to point out to people, delays mean costs—additional costs, additional costs are borne by the customer. So, you know, if we can address this, it also helps us to address the question that we were talking about earlier about affordability.

31:30 Francis Bradley: Right? Like, how long does it take to get a major project built? Depending upon the kind of project that you're talking about, it can be decades or more. So, you know, to what degree can we simplify this? We've got duplication—federal and provincial processes. As well as, in addition to that duplication and different layers, we've got unnecessary regulatory actions that crop up, and the example that I often use—because it's a real head-scratcher for me—is a couple of years ago, the federal government changed the Fisheries Act.

32:07 Francis Bradley: And the Fisheries Act now protects fish as opposed to protecting fisheries. And that sounds like a fairly simple esoteric issue, but it is massively now complicating the licensing and the relicensing even of existing facilities when their licensing comes up. So, by—it wasn't intentional to make it that much more complicated, but it is almost impossible right now to license a hydro facility. There are very few hydro facilities that are currently compliant with this new Fisheries Act that protects individual fish as opposed to fish populations. I don't know, maybe part of the problem is the word fish is both singular and plural, but that just gives you a little more complication for when lawyers get involved in this.

32:59 Francis Bradley: So, listen, what do we need, right? For years, we've had, in four or five years in a row, either in the federal budget or in the fall economic statements or in other pronouncements by the government of Canada, a promise to bring in a "one project, one approval" regime, which sounds great, but we haven't gotten there yet. And it's something that keeps getting promised year after year after year. We need to get to that one project, one approval regime.

33:34 Francis Bradley: And then the other thing is the federal government has also now committed—they introduced it in Bill C-5 for the projects of national interest—a two-year federal approval timeline for major projects. Well, we actually need that for all projects, not just those "PONIs," not just those projects of national interest. We should have a federal timeline on all projects. Again, which isn't to say that every project gets approved within two years, but like, if it's going to get a thumbs up or a thumbs down, you need to know in a reasonable amount of time so that you can figure out what the alternative will be if it's a thumbs down.

34:16 Francis Bradley: So, you know, I think it's just as reasonable to say we need to know if we're getting approval, but we also need to know if we're not getting approved so that alternatives—and that needs to be done in a timely manner. And so the federal government has permitted, has committed to like this two-year timeline for projects of national interest; we'd like to see that across the board—federal government, provincial governments as well—for all projects. We've got the Major Projects Office that's been set up; I'm certain that already there's lessons that are being learned from the Major Projects Office. Well, let's draw those lessons and apply them to all projects, not projects of national interest.

35:00 Francis Bradley: Red tape reduction—we've heard of desires to ensure that we're looking at opportunities—well, that should be a continuous and ongoing process. And then finally, duplication between the federal government and the provinces—we need to eliminate that duplication. You know, for example, even on things as simple as environmental assessments—well, pick one, right? Let's get an agreement between both levels of government that one project, one review for that project will be sufficient. And so the feds can recognize the provincial process, the provincial can recognize the federal—one or the other as opposed to having multiple levels of government essentially doing the same work over and over again. And again, as I said earlier, as you well know, Trevor, these additional costs land in one place and one place only right now, and that's on the ratepayer, that's on the customer.

35:56 Trevor Freeman: And it's that double cost of the additional time and effort necessary as well as delaying whatever kind of economic activity the customer might be waiting for, which kind of ties into my next question here of we're seeing more and more—and this has always been the case but maybe it's just a little bit more on the forefront now—the importance of energy for economic development, for attracting investment and business. And that's true in our service territory absolutely as well as others. So, supply chain challenges have cropped up in the last little while and are getting into the mix and causing some of those delays. In order to move forward, what can the federal government do to bolster supply chains? Is it bringing more things domestically? Are there other tools that they have at their disposal? How do we go about addressing the supply chain challenge?

36:52 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and this is a real issue—as you know from your perch at Hydro Ottawa—it's a challenge for even a company such as yours and it's right across the sector. The delays and the time that it takes to get into the queue to get particularly for large pieces of equipment, but even for some of the smaller stuff, is simply becoming more and more challenging. We thought it was a COVID-19 blip, but it wasn't, right? I mean, it is continuing, it is persisting six years later; the supply chains remain as challenged as they were, probably even more so. I mean, a couple of years ago we saw a ship get stuck sideways in the Suez Canal and it affected supply chains for every sector right across the globe.

37:46 Francis Bradley: So yeah, you know, we need to be addressing this. So what we're proposing is we look at the establishment of what we're calling a Canadian Electricity Supply Chain Roadmap. This, done in partnership with the federal government, electricity companies, suppliers, and so on—everybody that's got a stake in this—to take a more systematic and collaborative and cooperative approach to addressing supply chains, and come together to identify those opportunities to do some of the things that you mentioned. You know, what about domestic production on some of these things? What about domestic production in those areas where we've got the potential for exports as well? So that would be potentially not only an ability to address a supply chain issue, but also to look at economic opportunities for Canadian businesses.

38:43 Francis Bradley: And can we look at leveraging some of the existing tools that we've got and repurpose them so that they are focused on addressing what would be identified as needing to be in that supply chain roadmap? Let's leverage tools such as tax credits, Business Development Canada, Export Development Canada, the Canada Growth Fund. So, you know, it'd be interesting if there were other venues and other opportunities, but we have existing tools; we're just not, I think, focusing them directly and specifically with respect to the supply chain requirements for the electricity sector and we should be looking at doing that. And you know, the challenges—I've spent time with the steel producers, for example—it is fascinating to try and get a sense of what those challenges are for the partners that we've got, whether it's steel or aluminum or finished products or transformers; it is endlessly complex, evolving, and so you know, we really do think developing some kind of a clear roadmap with all of the stakeholders would benefit the sector as a whole.

39:56 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean certainly those challenges are ubiquitous across multiple sectors, and I think the one thing that we do find is when we bring up the challenges we're having with our customers or potential customers, they all get it, it's not a surprise. They don't sit there kind of surprised to hear that oh, it's going to take us this much time to bring in that transformer because they're going through some of those same challenges and I think the need is cross-cutting to address it. Another input, of course, into any sector and certainly the electricity industry is just the human capital required—the skilled labor required on the design side, on the construction side. Your report recommends establishing a Federal Industry Workforce Advisory Council. What would the priority be for that council and how do you help the utility industry compete against other industries that are also out there kind of participating in this war on talent trying to get the best and brightest into their sectors?

41:03 Francis Bradley: Yeah, no, I mean it is definitely a challenge. It's something that we've been addressing for, geez, probably two decades now at the association. We helped establish Electricity Human Resources Canada back in the day; it was spun off from some of our activities we'd done previously. So, you know, this is an area that we've been particularly concerned about in the sector for, well, as I say, you know, 20 years, it's been a generation that we've seen this challenge coming and we know it's on its way.

41:38 Francis Bradley: We are seeing, I think, some very good work in this space—I did mention Electricity Human Resources Canada; they do some terrific work, they are absolutely a critical stakeholder, increasingly a thought leader in this space. But you know, as you note, we have a very specific ask in our State of the Industry and that is getting the federal government to pull together a senior-level advisory committee with representatives from industry associations, from unions, from training providers, from the sector as a whole, to discuss these emerging labor market issues, to review the forecasts.

42:18 Francis Bradley: They need to address strategies, and so the mandate needs to be very specific: ongoing review, monitoring, and improvement of our workforce mechanisms to ensure that they remain adaptive and responsive to labor market realities. And so, this is not something that the sector and the electricity companies themselves control; this is something that requires the collaboration and participation of governments with respect to the policies that they bring forward, with unions, and with the training providers.

42:55 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and as we look at sort of that next generation—you talk about this being a generational challenge—it's one thing to attract the skilled workers of today, it's another to bring up and build those skill sets. We talk about that a lot on the show about how we kind of need to build those skill sets. So, a bit of a platform for you here: why should someone consider that career in the electricity industry? What's the hook? What's the thing that you would convince them to come? I kind of know what my pitch is, but I'm curious to hear what yours is.

43:29 Francis Bradley: All right. Well, listen, I mean, like, sort of on the first piece, you know, I think this is where the adaptive and responsive comes into play. That advisory council I talked about I think would be able to recommend how we adjust and how we adapt our programs to further, you know, promote the sector. But why would I recommend somebody in this sector, and who would I begin with? Absolutely.

43:56 Francis Bradley: I mean, first off, I mean, this is a sector where we're going to see massive growth. We know that it is coming; we know that we're going to see a doubling of demand out to 2050. And so, with that massive growth, the prospects for skilled trades, the prospects for anybody in this sector is very bright.

44:21 Francis Bradley: And you know, one of the other things as well that I'd like to point out is we hear a lot of talk about how AI is going to massively change the workforce of the future. But when we're talking about skilled trades, you know, AI can do a lot of things, but ChatGPT is never going to be able to climb a pole, swing a hammer, or install an insulator. So, you know, not only is this a sector where the growth is going to be very significant over the next 25 years, it's also one where we know we actually need people to do these things.

44:54 Francis Bradley: And these are, you know, for a certain type of person, this is really cool and interesting stuff. So, you know, whether it is in the skilled trades or people in the technologies, this is a sector that has some really interesting, fascinating career choices and they're ones that, you know, the ChatGPT is not going to be taking away from you.

45:18 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and it is this—the sector is evolving, it's innovating, it's changing, but to your point, we still need that traditional infrastructure. We need that growth, there will be more poles and wires, there will be cooler technology to work on, but we still need folks to install them. And something that I tell people that are interested—you know, a lot of younger folks coming up are really passionate about the environment, climate change—this is a great sector for that. This is a great spot to focus on that; the electricity industry is the, you know, tip of the spear when it comes to addressing climate change—electricity is the solution.

46:01 Francis Bradley: And it will continue to be so well into the future. Yeah, no, absolutely couldn't agree more.

46:07 Trevor Freeman: So, pivoting then to climate change, and we're seeing we've talked here a couple times about the increase in severe weather events, you know, wildfires in parts of the country. Utilities are facing this challenge of not only meeting growing demand but also meeting it in a harsher environment—I think there's no better way to say it—our grid needs to be more resilient and people are relying on it even more. What are some of the recommendations that you've identified on how utilities adapt to this changing world and become more resilient?

46:46 Francis Bradley: Yeah, well, you know, you're right, the conditions, the extreme weather that we're facing is not something that's going to go away. I find it interesting that I think every six months we add something new to the lexicon to try and just describe how crazy the weather has gotten—you know, like atmospheric rivers and heat domes and...

47:09 Trevor Freeman: Derecho!

47:11 Francis Bradley: Yeah, right, like when did we—I never heard of a derecho until it ripped through, I don't know, how many thousands of poles it tore up through Ottawa. Exactly. So, you know, this stuff is real and it's evolving.

47:25 Francis Bradley: And so, yeah, what are we proposing? We've kind of got three big asks in this area. The first one is we need to do a review of those federal and provincial legal frameworks. Do we have the appropriate protections related to industry-caused ignitions as we say? So, you know, if inadvertent but there is a spark from infrastructure that causes, for example, a fire, you know, do we actually have legal frameworks that can address this in a way that doesn't simply go in and bankrupt a company as happened in California? So we're supporting work in this space.

48:06 Francis Bradley: Second, we want to establish formal coordination mechanisms between our sector and—it may sound a little esoteric for us sitting here in downtown Ottawa—but Parks Canada, to address vegetation management on federal lands. There is a lot of federal land particularly, for example, in the Rockies, but not exclusively; there's lots of other parts of this country where there's vast swaths of land that is owned by Parks Canada that our infrastructure transits through, and so we need better coordination mechanisms. And we saw that frankly with respect to the fire in Jasper a couple of years ago that we could and need to do a lot better in terms of our coordination.

48:54 Francis Bradley: And then finally, we're suggesting looking at a resiliency tax credit or some kind of a targeted funding program to support weather hardening of electricity infrastructure, to protect the system from growing exposure to extreme weather. To cover off all of those things, whether it's wildfires or ice storms or windstorms or floods or tornadoes. You know, again, it kind of comes back to that concept of this is core infrastructure; there are some things that actually should be tax-supported, and weather hardening of our core infrastructure is something that we should be thinking about. Is that should be on the bills of customers, or is that something that as a country we need to address?

49:43 Trevor Freeman: Great. So Francis, as we wrap up our conversation here—you know, if we go to the end of your State of the Industry report, you've got 18 recommendations. We're not going to go through each one individually. Is there one that rises above the rest, or let me put this a different way: if you could sum up or distill this kind of entire report into a key takeaway or a key action item, what would that be? How do you kind of wrap all this up in a bow, which I know is a difficult thing to do for such a comprehensive report as this?

50:23 Francis Bradley: Right. So, you're actually asking two questions there: is there one I want to point out or and what's the wrap-up? I mean, if there was one thing of those 18 that I'd say, "Please in the next 12 months, for goodness' sake, at least do this one thing," it would be reforming the Fisheries Act, and I mentioned that earlier. Because right now, it focuses on individual fish as opposed to the impact on fish populations. So, that's one if I wanted one that I think should be fairly easy to address and to move forward with, it would be that one, which I think was number two on the list.

51:03 Francis Bradley: But you know, of all of the 18, they're all about "can we get our stuff built?" and "can we get it done in a timely manner because the customer is counting on us?" So, you know, if one of those encapsulates that, I would say it's probably the first one, which, though talks, specifically to this two-year federal approval timeline. Thematically, what it's all about is we have to move and we have to move quickly, but we have to do it in a collaborative manner.

51:35 Francis Bradley: But you know, in the end here, what we're talking about is demand is going to double in the next 25 years. We need to invest $2 trillion. So let's do this in a manner that is sustainable and enduring, so not piecemeal, not piece by piece. So that kind of brings me back full circle to the very beginning of this report: "Forging Canada's Electricity Future." Forging is to create something strong and lasting through effort. And so I think thematically it's "let's build sustainably and in an enduring manner and not piecemeal". So, let's forge.

52:13 Trevor Freeman: I had planned on wrapping this up with inviting you back on the show a year from now to kind of talk about where we go, but you've recently announced that you're retiring soon—the next sort of few months are going to be wrapping up your time at Electricity Canada. So first of all, congratulations on that.

52:32 Francis Bradley: Thank you.

52:33 Trevor Freeman: The invitation stands, so you're welcome to come back out of retirement to come on the show and check in with where we are, and so the invitation will remain open.

52:43 Francis Bradley: Well, and as you know, I do a podcast, and I may continue to do my podcast on the future of electricity beyond that. Remains to be seen.

52:54 Trevor Freeman: That's great. Well, I hope that on your show, on this show, we'll be able to talk through how some of these things that we're discussing now, how they've been implemented, how they've actually moved forward and we're able to see some results in that. Francis, thanks so much for coming on the show. Always appreciate your insight and appreciate you being here and looking forward to chatting again soon.

53:18 Francis Bradley: Awesome, always great to chat. Thanks for the invitation.

53:21 Trevor Freeman: Take care.

53:26 Trevor Freeman: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review—it really helps us to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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When we say 'the cloud' what we mean is 'the data centre'. Globally, data centres are projected to consume over 1000 terawatt hours in 2026. What does that mean for energy production, distribution, and consumption? Guest Phil Harris, Cerio President and CEO, joins thinkenergy to shed light on something we all rely on but may not fully understand. From efficiency to sustainability, environmental concerns to Cerio's role improving how data centres manage energy. Listen in for the future of cloud computing.

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Related links

● Cerio: https://www.cerio.ai/

● Phil Harris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paharris/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com. Hi everyone, and welcome back. Data centres have come up a number of times on this show, and for very good reason, they have become a key underpinning technology for so much of our lives, every time we pull out that phone from our pockets to pull up directions or buy something online or doom, scroll on your social media or new site of choice, every time you use your phone stream a movie, leverage an AI model, whatever you end up using it for, it's funny as I read this list, I'm sure there's like some university student out there who's thinking, man, what is this old man talking about? We don't use our phones for that, whatever the kids are doing these days, whatever we're doing these days with our phones, with our computers, our tablets, et cetera. All of that leverages infrastructure that most of us have never seen and, quite frankly, probably don't really understand we talk about the cloud like it's this amorphous, nebulous thing, but in reality, we're talking about real hardware in a real building that uses real energy, mainly electricity, a lot of water. And this isn't really new, like we've been leveraging centralized data centres for many years now, but what is changing is the scale of the data centres that we're seeing now, and the pace of growth in computing power that we need to do, the things that we want to do, and that our data centres are able to deliver. So just to throw a few numbers at it, the traditional data centre servers that maybe power the early days of on demand online streaming services, for example, they used anywhere from five to 15 kilowatts per rack. But modern server racks that are used to power AI searches, for example, can hit anywhere from 60 to 100 kilowatts per rack. This is great from a power output per rack perspective, but it means massive energy needs, and that is showing up in the size of load requests that we're seeing from new data centres. New data centres today are asking for service connections that are orders of magnitude higher than those built even just five years ago, globally, data centres are projected to consume over 1000 terawatts in 2026 or terawatt hours, sorry, in 2026 and just a quick kind of refresher from high school or wherever you would have learned this, a terawatt is 1000 gigawatts, which is 1000 megawatts. So 1000 terawatt hours, which is roughly equivalent to the annual electricity demand from the country of Japan, an entire country. So given all of this, there are a lot of incentives to find ways to maximize efficiency and reduce some of that energy demand, and that's where my next guest, Phil Harris and his company Cerio come into play. I'll let Phil get into the details of exactly what Cerio does, but essentially, their goal is to reimagine the data centre to maximize sustainability and reduce energy needs. Phil is Cerio's President and CEO, and has been in the networking and data centre industry for over 35 years, including at well known companies like Intel and Cisco. And I'm really excited about this conversation. One to understand, how do we make data centres a little bit more efficient, or maybe a lot more efficient, but also just to really understand, like, what are we talking about when we talk about a data centre? What is actually happening, what is physically inside these buildings, and we'll get into a little bit of that in our conversation. So Phil, welcome to the show.

Phil Harris 04:13

Well, thanks, Trevor. I appreciate it.

Trevor Freeman 04:13

So Phil, obviously we're here today to talk about your work building sustainable data centres, or trying to make data centres a little bit more sustainable. But before we get into that. You know, you've spent your career, you know, decades of your career at different tech giants. Let's call them in telecisco to to mention, you've seen quite a bit of change. No doubt, over your time, has that changed, like, does this industry change linearly? Does it grow fairly steady, or is it kind of big jumps? And are we on the cusp of any major shifts? What can you kind of tell us about the future of this, this sector, data, tech, etc?

Phil Harris 04:48

It's interesting, I think, as companies start, and I was at companies like Cisco, for example, when it was a very small company to when it was very large company. And this should be no surprise for anybody, the bigger the company gets, the harder. It is to change, and they really find that the only way they change is when they absolutely have to, not because they want to, and that's a combination of just inertia and shareholders expectations and a whole bunch of things. So I would say that the bigger the company is, the harder is them, for them to react. And so I think small, nimble companies tend to do much better when there's a lot of transformational technology and development and changes in the overall ecosystem we live in. I think just the second part of your question, you know, I look at the current situation as a point in time where a lot of companies will have to make some significant changes, simply because we're hitting too many walls, technological walls, commercial walls, geopolitical walls, that are really sort of confining what people can do. So I think what's going to about to happen is we're about to see a significant change, and this is not atypical in the industry. If we think about back into the into the start of what we would think of today as computer science around mainframes that were happening in the 60s. You know, for about a decade and a half, two decades, there was a lot of dominance around a particular way of doing things. And then some new innovational technology came along that rapidly changed, that scaled out, and it went from a very dominant set of players to a much larger number of smaller players who could then provide more innovation and more scale and more choice. And I think we're about to see that transition occurring as well.

Trevor Freeman 06:25

So is this, is there sort of like an analogous time, 10 years ago, 20 years ago? Are we on the cusp of, like, the big, the big change that we've seen before? Like, what would you compare this to? You know, in the last 2030, years?

Phil Harris 06:40

Yeah. I mean, I think there's been eras of compute. And if we say, I mean, we can find analogies outside of the compute world, but let's just stay in the compute, computing science world. I gave the mainframe example as one, and then we went to what we call client server, which scaled out rapidly. Telephony. We went from large, big telephone exchanges that started in in the government space, went to very large organizations. Now, basically we've completely scaled out how we make phone calls to use that now 20th century as a terminology. Nobody really makes telephone calls anymore. And we went through this with cloud computing and the Internet, where there was a change in the approach to the way we did things that suddenly gave us a scale out mentality, rather than a scale up mentality. And I think that's what we have to key in on here. Is it that we can take some of you? I was on a panel yesterday where we were talking about scale, and I say, well, to scale or not to scale? That is not the question. It's how do we scale? Do we continue to scale up, which is the current model, or do we start to think about scaling out, which is a more distributed model? So we go from a small number of big things to a large number of smaller things. And typically in computer science, whatever you want to start, storage, compute, memory, telephony, everything we've ever done goes through this arc.

Trevor Freeman 07:59

Yeah, it's it's interesting, and it's, there's obviously my brain's gonna immediately try and find those, those similarities between my world that I live in on the energy side of things. And it's the same question, like, there, there's, there is no path where we're not expanding the amount of energy we need. We're not going to be using more energy. But there are different ways to do that, and there are different paths we can take the business as usual that just grow, grow, grow, decentralized energy production and large scale transmission. Or there's a combination of like, grow those things, but also find alternative methods. More ders more sort of like close to consumer energy sources and storage, et cetera, et cetera. And people that listen to this podcast know I kind of go on ad nauseam about this. So lots of similarities. There another kind of framing or foundational thing that I want to talk through before we really get into the meat of our conversation is helping ground both myself and our listeners, and what exactly we're talking about here. So we, we all use, whether we know it or not, we use, you know, like cloud computing constantly, whether it's in our calls, how we're using the internet, using AI, more, more frequently. Now, what is the physical reality behind that? What's actually happening? What is the term data centre? What is a data centre for our listeners here? What does that look like?

Phil Harris 09:26

Yeah, let's start there. That's a great question. We started recognizing that the amount of power and space required for computers in companies and government in all sorts of different applications was getting larger than we could put in a room, in a closet near maybe where people were using it. We had to sort of create dedicated space, because the power requirements, the cooling requirements, just the noise. You can't hear this, but just in my basement, I have a few different compute systems that my wife continues to tell me is keeping my neighborhood awake. The reality is the environmentals of these things became very difficult. So we created these purpose built locations that had then different requirements in terms of access and facilities and power and cooling and staffing. And so they became a new way of thinking about building compute infrastructure at a building level, not just at the individual computers themselves. So a data is usually a very large room or building, I should say that houses large amounts of compute and storage and other networking equipment. There's a whole range of different technologies that go into a data centre that allows us to process information. That's what a data centre is. To give you some analogies in the US, there's about nearly 6000 data centres, depending on how you measure a data centre. In Canada, we have about 400 in Europe, there's about 750 that we can identify as standalone data centres. You can probably find more places where computers are outside of people's homes, but that's about the ratio we're looking at.

Trevor Freeman 10:59

And we're seeing, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong here, like, all this talk about the AI proliferation, data centre proliferation, we're seeing an expansion of these. Is that we're seeing the size of these data centres expand, or we're seeing just more of them popping up. Like, what does it mean when we say we're seeing, like, data centre growth because of AI, what does that mean?

Phil Harris 11:24

Well, it's fascinating, because now our worlds collide, because the way we now think about how to describe a data centre isn't in the square footage or the number of computers, it's in how much power it consumes, and we now measure it in megawatts, and it starts in 10 megawatts, or single digit megawatts, very small data centres, into average size data centres in the 10s of megawatts, up to now the hundreds and the gigawatts of consumption that you look at these hyperscalers. But I think we have to put this into a sort of a human scale. It helps us to put this in human scale. If I were to go back to ChatGPT actually about now, 15 months ago. ChatGPT-4. If you were to put that data centre footprint into the province of Ontario, for example, where you and I both are right now, it would be the equivalent of a million internal combustion engine cars driving 30 kilometers a day, if you ever drive up the 401 you probably don't want to see another million cars on the 401 Yeah, but that's the amount of energy that we can think of in terms of a data centre of that scale.

Trevor Freeman 12:33

Yeah, and again, kind of putting it in the electrical industry's terms, what we consider as a large load so we have a specific designation of a large load request that is anything five megawatts and higher. And like, up until recently, we would get one or two of those every once in a while, like, it's pretty rare to get a large load request. We are seeing large load requests coming in at a near constant pace now, like the number of large load requests we're getting, and a lot of it is because of this, not all because of data centres or anything like that, but a lot of them are certainly driven by that need for more more computing power, more facilities that support that.

Phil Harris 13:18

That's right. And at the same time, we're seeing a demand on on energy around now home, EV charging, and other aspects of the general distribution of the power, everything's taking a step function. But if I could just say one thing to your point about before I was seven megawatts, was a high load, then we may need to change that scale. It's almost inefficient to build a data centre unless you're somewhere above the 10 megawatt range, because at that point, get somebody else to do it for you.

Trevor Freeman 13:42

Interesting, yeah, and that's where it's sort of like, almost like, renting space in a data centre for a request of that size. Interesting, something that you know, I've seen kind of in your in your writing, on your on your blogs, is the idea that traditional data centres are really built for peak capacity, which absolutely mirrors the power industry. We build our electrical grids for peak capacity, and obviously that leads to a fair amount of inefficiencies. So if you're building just a peak capacity, if you're not at peak capacity, there is an inefficiency happening. There something that you identified. It's a stat from your research talks about graphics processing unit usage rates as low as 20 or 25% so I'm assuming that means kind of like three quarters of that hardware is sitting idle or not being used valuably. Tell us a little bit about what, what Cerio what you're doing, what your composable architecture specifically is doing to reclaim that wasted power and cooling capacity,

Phil Harris 14:44

Yeah, and so it starts off with your the premise you correctly raised is that, if we think about the the equipment, the physical equipment, and how we put these devices and these components together in a data centre, the same model we've been using today is, is about 3035, Years old in terms of individual compute systems, where we run applications, software that has memory and central processing units, those typical things you have in a laptop, or you have every computer. But then we put these accelerators, these GPUs, companies like Nvidia now are the one most valuable companies on the planet, if not the most valuable planet company on the planet, because that's the technology they develop. But we're trying to put these new class of accelerators into an existing compute model which wasn't designed for this. So then itself now starts to fragment the ability to leverage those resources in a data centre. And as you accurately said, it's interesting. If I could geek out on this a little bit for the energy consumer in the room, please. Do we think? We think about the notion not only the megawatts of power going into the data but we we think about what we call power usage efficiency. And that basically says, whatever the power delivered to a data centre, how much of that is applicable to the IT systems in that data centre, a good, well run, efficient data centre is about 1.2 that means about 1.2 times the amount of power that's used is delivered. Your home, for example, is about 30 times the amount of power we use is what's delivered. We are very inefficient from our home use, by the way. But that's another problem to solve in another podcast, but in this case, that's all true until we then ask the question, but what's actually being used at that equipment? And that's now in that 25 to 30% range at any point in time, and we refer to that as stranded and idle assets that, for whatever reason, aren't where the application is or aren't applicable to be used for the application that moment because they're in some other box, or it's a time of day when people use equipment. And by the way, equipment like that isn't being used 24 by seven, but it's drawing power 24 by seven, right? So there's lots of inherent inefficiencies in that model. So what we do is we provide the ability to dynamically have pools of resources where we can dynamically attach resources to a compute system as required, at the scale you're required, and allowing you to be much more efficient in the timing of that and the amount of equipment required to meet your end solution. And by doing that, we can increase the number of accelerators that you apply to a compute system, which inherently means you are much more efficient in those compute systems, because it's not just the computers. As I said before, there's storage, there's firewalls, there's load balances, there's networking equipment, all of that can now be much more efficiently used. All of that is drawing power.

Trevor Freeman 17:35

So is the idea, then, that the equipment not being used, or when you're at a lower demand time in terms of computing power, you've got physical equipment idling, sort of in more idle mode, drawing less resources that you can then ramp up so the peak amount of equipment still there. You're just being more efficient with it when it's not being used. And you've developed a way to sort of dynamically pull that in. Is that what I'm hearing.

Phil Harris 18:00

Exactly, I'll give you an example. A data centre here in Toronto wanted to have a block of 128 GPUs. They could have, they could they could service their customers with, with the current systems they were using previously to deploying our infrastructure, they had to require deploy, actually, 200 GPUs and a very large number of servers in the to house those GPUs. By deploying this area technology, they brought that down to 136 actual GPUs, and they reduced the number of compute platforms by a factor of four. So they reduced it by 75%.

Trevor Freeman 18:35

Yeah, that's fantastic,

Phil Harris 18:36

With exactly the same outcomes to their customers. With no no contention for resources, no oversubscription of resources, just more efficient use of those resources.

Trevor Freeman 18:46

Gotcha. So still able to meet that peak demand, but not sort of firing up that equipment when it's not needed.

Phil Harris 18:53

Well, not just not firing it, not having to have as much stranded equipment, because we can use all the equipment all the time.

Trevor Freeman 19:01

Gotcha. Okay, so in when I was kind of setting up that last question, I used the term composable architecture, and I'll admit that I pulled that from your material. Help me understand what that means. So you know that I've also seen you use composable infrastructure sounds a bit abstract, like, what? What are we talking about here? What does that actually look like?

Phil Harris 19:20

When a consumer, or someone who's building a data centre buys their computer equipment, they usually will actually buy the computers, the GPUs, the storage and other things at the same time, and they will get delivered together, and that box now becomes a unit of compute capacity. But the thing about that is whether you're able to use that entire capacity, the length in which that's a useful there's a lot of innovation churn right now as new things are coming through very quickly. But that box is now solid. You know, it's statically built for the rest of its life. Pretty much, it's very expensive. IBM did a study to take a server out of a rack, these big, six foot racks or bigger, where. These servers are housed with lots of wires going into them, power and data and all sorts of things. It's about $1,000 a minute to take one of those servers out of the rack and either change something that's broken, update something so they just don't get taken out of the rack. Because the average time to take a server out of the rack is about an hour. The math on that's pretty simple. So if I'm spending $60,000 to upgrade a 20,030 $1,000 server, I'm just gonna leave it there and buy another one. So that creates more of these stranded assets. So composability says, Let's separate these things into, as I said, pools of resources, compute accelerators and other devices, and have a fabric between them that allows us to, in real time, assemble a compute system that I need. That's the composing part as I need it, because I can now take the resources anywhere in my data centre, if you've got the right fabric, which we've built that allows you then to real time build that compute system with exactly the same capabilities, exactly the same performance, and without having to change any of your software or the way the service work. Everything has to be off the shelf to make this work, and that's what we've built.

Trevor Freeman 21:05

Got you. So, two of the terms, and you'll forgive me, this is sort of a new sector for me. Two of the terms that are used as metrics to determine performance are power usage, effectiveness, and you've kind of talked about, you know, GPU usage. Is the industry moving more towards that GPU usage metric? Is that just something that you guys are kind of leading the curve on? Or where are we at on that?

Phil Harris 21:34

Oh no, this is very much the industry way of describing not just efficiency, but requirements. And we use very weird terms for this. Every industry has their weird term. Weird terminology, and we're now moving to the for example, in AI, the number of tokens per second when you and I put a request or a question into ChatGPT or CoPilot or chord, whatever we use, those words get translated into tokens, actually numbers. Every compute system is just a big calculator. At the end of the day, we do, we do massive processing on numbers. How many of those tokens can I put into the system? How long does it take to process those tokens and give me a response? And the tokens per second, per watt is now what we're asking. So how many tokens a second, and what power per token is it costing me to process information? And that's the interesting way of thinking about how AI, for example, and that's value started this conversation will be measured is the most amount of tokens per second, per watt. Now, right now, we're focusing on tokens per second. We're not looking at the last denominator, which is watts. So that's why these data centres are getting so ridiculous. Ridiculously large. And you know, we even heard it in the in the State of the Union address in the United States earlier in the week, where, you know, there's now the administration pushing cloud vendors and AI vendors to say, Hey, pretty soon you're gonna be on your own about delivering power. Because, quite frankly, the way you're going. It's going to become untenable to think about that from a national grid perspective. Now, I think that may be a little bit into the future, but I don't think it's a completely unreasonable sentiment at this point.

Trevor Freeman 23:12

Yeah, and I mean, you're talking about, and we talked earlier about the just the scale of energy usage here is reaching a new height, a new level. And if we break it down to the individual racks, you know, these racks of servers or processors that you've got in your data centre, we're now talking about anywhere from 50 kilowatts to 100 kilowatts of cooling need. And that's the big driver of energy usage, I think, is correct here is the cooling need per rack multiplied by, of course, big numbers to get those, you know, 5-10-20-30, megawatt data cetnre we're talking about when we talk about cooling and we talk about, you know, hot spots within a data centre, how does your approach differ from kind of the standard way of doing it.

Phil Harris 24:02

So that's a great question, and I think we should explain why the cooling part, it's a bit like buying really good, expensive wagyu steak every day and then having to spend a lot of money on a gym membership to then go and burn off those calories. So we put all this power into power these compute systems, but then we have to keep them cool, and the harder they that, the faster they run, the more powerful they run, the hotter they get. But we need to cool them. So there's this relationship between the more power we draw, the more cooling we need, and cooling is becoming, as I said, that sort of trade off for performance. Now there's lots of exotic ways of cooling computer systems. We can just blow air across them. We can have a liquid like the radiator in your car, or we can literally drop these compute systems into bars of solvents. Ferdinand Porsche, I like to use of other industry analogies. Ferdinand Porsche, the guy who obviously designed the first Porsches and the VW Beetle, realized if I could distribute the heat of the engine block with a horizontal block, I could blow air across it. It was much more efficient than trying to put a radiator to actually cool down the engine block the way that other cars who have the engine in the front, and it's because of surface area. Now, if I've got to put all my GPUs and CPUs and memory close together, either in the same box or the same rack, that concentration of heat needs to be addressed with cooling. One of the ways we can address this is not only to be very selected when I compose the GPU, it's the only time it's drawing power, but also I can spread them out through my data centre by having a fabric that allows me to connect them to the compute systems with the same performance, but now I can distribute my heat generation. That means I can cool more efficiently, just like that Fernand Porsche analogy of the of the Porsche 911 because now heat over over, spread of distance and surface area is a more efficient way, which means it won't mean that we won't ever get to liquid cooling. I don't think immersion cooling is a good idea for lots of other reasons. It's a necessity, more than an optimization, but we can defer the complexity, the cost of those exotic cooling systems if we're more efficient in a way we use and design our data centres.

Trevor Freeman 26:18

And I guess there's a similar description there of, if you're concentrating all that heat in a specific, you know, physical area within a bigger building room, whatever you want to call it, that that cooling system is having to work to that peak cooling need, so to that hot spot effectively. But it's not working just on that spot. It's working across the whole physical area. If you're spreading that cooling need out across the whole room, one the peak is a little bit lower, and you're just more effectively using your whole cooling system. Is that fair to say?

Phil Harris 26:52

And that's exactly the right way of looking at this. And think about it from this perspective as well. The reason we have to cool is because if we don't call sufficiently, those devices become very unreliable and reduce a useful lifespan without going into who, because they keep this information confidential. But one large cloud provider in the US, for example, a GPU that normally has a lifespan of at least three years, is going down to about nine months right now. And the reason for that reduction the lifespan of the use of that GPU, is because of the heating characteristics within these boxes that are getting even with all these cooling mechanisms are becoming now a reduction in the lifespan. So that means we have to create even, remember, I said what it costs to take a system out of a rack. That means we don't have to apply an efficient and effective cooling strategy, our power strategy and cooling trategy, then we start hitting problems very quickly.

Trevor Freeman 27:50

Got you okay. Okay, so there's a mantra that I admit I hadn't seen before until kind of reading some of your material. It's, it's friends. Don't let friends build data centres. And I think it's referring to, you know, this, this move. And there's so many industries that kind of do this cycle of centralization to decentralization, and the sort of data movement went towards that centralization, and you saw these big, massive data centres. But there's, there's kind of a move now back to, let's call it decentralization or repatriation of data. And so for various geopolitical reasons, organizations, companies, governments, are wanting to pull their data back home and have it kind of be more in their control, living in their own servers. So how are you or how is Cerio helping companies kind of get back into the data centre business or repatriate their data without, kind of, you know, getting into the troubles that led for to that centralization in the first place?

Phil Harris 28:55

Yeah, and by the way, I can't take real credit for that quote. Cole Crawford, who was one of the early guys at Facebook before it became META, and was one of the leading voices in the Open Compute platform movement, which is try and standardize how we do these things. Cole is now the CEO of a company called Vapor IO, and what he was really saying is, it's so complicated and difficult to run data centres, let alone building the capital expense. AI isn't just one thing. There's lots of stages in the workflow of AI. We train these big models. You have heard of large language models like ChatGPT or copilot, but what we use them for the results of those trained models is what we call inference. Now you'll now hear about agentic AI, where we turn those results into actions. Okay, that's the agency part of agentic. Well, the use of AI in the corporate world is now becoming, as you said, both regulated, but from an intellectual property perspective, it's about how I control my data and my information. Because if I put that all into somebody else's large language model, I basically put. Populated somebody else's large language model with what might be my proprietary information or information that's very sensitive, and it's one of the reasons why you'll hear in the press about anthropic for example, trying to put guardrails around the use of their AI, because they're very sensitive to this. Most enterprises, governments of all sorts, have realized, though, they need to have run this in their own data centres, because they need to have control over this in control over this information and the use of this information, that's the repatriation you're talking about, moving these workloads now into the organization that previously said, Hey, cloud computing can take this problem. We're going to now figure out how enterprises, which are far many more of them in far more diverse locations, can now build their own data centres and get the right power, the right efficiency, the right capabilities at the right cost.

Trevor Freeman 30:47

Does that open the door? I mean, earlier, you talked about, you know, if we're talking about a five megawatt data centre, it's almost not worth it. You know, that's just sort of renting space in someone else's. How does that track with an organization that won't have enough data or enough computing power, whatever the metric is to warrant a 30 megawatt data centre for their own data, but wants to get that that control, wants to bring it more in house, is our is your technology helping those smaller data centres exist? Is that the correlation there?

Phil Harris 31:18

We can now move it into one of the things that we another couple of terms that may be an maybe not your your listeners may not be familiar with in the compute world or the data centre world, we talk of brownfield and Greenfield. Brownfield is that which is already there. Greenfield is something I have to build new. A lot of the Brownfield world is what is the predominant sort of quantity of compute power on the planet is primarily brownfield The question is, can I take that existing infrastructure and put the capabilities we've been describing in this discussion into those brownfields? So I can reduce the cost of the expansion of that because I can reuse the compute equipments there, I can now add just the discrete GPU technology, for example, into an existing data centre that doesn't therefore blow the power budget or the cooling envelope within that environment, but I can still now start taking advantage as I figure out what my larger plans are, and at the same time, how do we have a tier of providers? I'll give you an example. There's a company in, again, in Canada, think on who are building a data centre in in Ottawa, it's going to have its own liquid natural LNG as its source of power for its own power requirements. Why? Because they can have the power they need as they need it in that location, and they can provide that secure infrastructure for both government and private enterprises, and think on is certainly in Canada, one of those companies that's really seen to be a trusted partner in this. So it will be a bit of what can I do myself? How do I have a trusted partner? We think of sovereign AI a lot. That means trust more than anything, and that's becoming the new mechanism of thinking about this.

Trevor Freeman 33:04

Thinking about the environmental impact of tech and of data. We've talked about the energy usage here, but there's also the physical aspect to it. Of the pace of improvement in technology means we see obsolescence, or we see kind of technology being outdated fairly quickly. We all, like on the personal level. We all see this with our cell phones, our smartphones, our whatever tech we have at home that seems to be out of date fairly soon. I think that the stat, or that the saying that's out there is, you know, tech is kind of obsolete or becomes trash within three years. Obviously, this is not sustainable. Is this part of the drive of what you're doing? Is it? Are you looking to sort of extend the life of the physical equipment you've touched on this a little bit, but maybe expand a little bit on that?

Phil Harris 33:52

Yeah, this goes a little bit back to that Brownfield-Greenfield discussion. But one way of looking at I guess, is when I put all of these components into what the classic model, the current model, I put my central processing unit, my memory, my storage, my GPUs, all in the same box. What is the thing in that box that I want to take advantage of as new innovation happens, versus that which is happening over a slower evolutionary cycle? Well, right now, if I put everything in the same compute unit. Go back to my cost of taking that box out of the rack. I'm pretty much limited by the slowest innovation curve within that platform. Now as what I can take advantage over time. Interestingly, GPUs are innovating currently at a clip of about once a year. Nvidia comes out the new generation of GPUs once a year, but now we're getting more GPUs into the market. We're getting much more diversity, and that diversity means I'll have more options more often. But if my compute system itself is only innovating once every three years to your point, then if I don't decouple these things, if I don't have the ability to separate these innovations. Curves. I'm always stuck with the slowest innovation curve. One of the things we've done at serial with the fabric we've built and the platform we've built is to allow you now to, if you like, dislocate those innovation curves and those options, so as new technology comes along, I can apply it to the things that are innovating slower and still get the outcomes I'm looking for. And that will significantly increase the existing lifespan of equipment that's in people's data centre.

Trevor Freeman 35:26

So, looking at a data centre of the future, and not, you know, not far into the future, let's say 5-10, years from now, are we seeing some of the same technology still exist within that data centre, or is it, you know, everything gets cycled out within like, what's the generation of a data centre, for example? Like, how often, or how soon will we see it all cycle out?

Phil Harris 35:48

I think you there's a there's a technical answer to that, and the financial answer to that. The depreciation model, so that the capital infrastructure can be written off people's books over a three or five year window is very typical. So we see that there's just a financial inhibition to changing more or faster than that three to five year window. The technical churn, as I said, is happening much more rapidly in the technologies that are drawing most power but providing most capability. So one of the things that we're looking at is how companies now start leasing infrastructure, because if they lease the infrastructure, they can now recycle that and bring new technology in faster into their organizations. But to do that, you've got to have the ability to bring new technology in and not be stuck with these static systems that we have today. So there's a set of financial instruments, and now with work that Cerio is doing, technical capabilities that allow customers to really continue to innovate. So there's no real, hey, it's going to be all churned out in three years. I'll continue to innovate over those three years, reciting the technology that can stay where it is and bringing new technologies as it becomes available at the right financial model.

Trevor Freeman 36:56

I'm curious about what that innovation is. So you talked about Nvidia, kind of essentially a new GPU every year. There's a new version every year. What is the innovation? Are they just is it getting faster and more compute power, and therefore it's pulling more energy? And is that just like a perpetual increase, or is it kind of same compute power, less energy, like, do we ever see, I guess what I'm what I'm getting at with this little bit of a ramble here is, do we ever see that that rate of change in energy usage start to flatten out and come down while we still can grow our computing power? Or does energy usage just continue to grow? Like, are we on a bit of a path with no end right now,

Phil Harris 37:44

History taught us a little bit about this. Gordon Moore, who was one of the founders of Intel actually, we had this term called Moore's Law, and Moore's Law was basically this idea that every 18 months we'll double the number of transistors on a piece of silicon. Now, for those in the computer science world, we understand what that means. For the rest of the world, the Trans World. The transistor is the smallest unit of technology within the computer. It's the basic building block of how we build computers. The central processing is all the GPUs. They all come down to taking literally silicon and in a foundry, we call them, figuring out how to make as many transistors interconnect with each other in a in a smaller area as possible, or the most amount of transistors we can. So a bit of a geeky answer to your question. But the way that we look at how each innovation improves is, are we increasing the number of transistors, which means we can do more math? Remember, all we're doing is processing numbers.

Trevor Freeman 38:41

Per unit, per physical unit, right?

Phil Harris 38:43

Per physical unit.

Trevor Freeman 38:44

Okay.

Phil Harris 38:45

And the way we do that is in these big foundries that process all this silicon into these components. They have, what are called process nodes and the and literally how we etch a transistor, it's called lithography onto a piece of silicon. Tells us the power of that piece of silicon and the more I can etch. So we get into what we call the nanometer scale, or what we call a process node. So every time, if you really look into the spec sheets of Nvidia, every generation, they'll talk about how many nanometers their silicon process is based on. Because the smaller I can get that number, the more transistors I can have on the same amount of silicon, the more processing I have, but every transistor takes power. So with more transistors, I require more power, even though in the same physical space, it looks like the same amount of silicon. Therefore, your question was a great one. Do we ever get to zero nanometers? Well, no, we're going to hit a wall here eventually. So then the question is, that's the scale up model. Try and make one thing as big as possible. How about if we make lots of things powerful, but we have more of them in China, the last year, we heard of deep seek. Deep seek was a Chinese government sponsored effort to try and come up with a. Much more cost effective way of doing the equivalent to ChatGPT. They didn't do that with bigger GPUs. They did it with much smaller GPUs, but many more of them. And that comes back to how efficient I am in deploying lots of things together. And that goes back to my earlier point about we start with scale up. Inevitably, in the industry, we go to scale out.

Trevor Freeman 40:22

And is it fair to say that the power usage per transistor, is that fairly static? Like, is there efficiencies to gain there? Or your GPU is going to use more power because you're packing more transistors into it, and once you hit that wall, that's going to be the power consumption level, is that, right?

Phil Harris 40:43

Well, this is the games that these silicon manufacturers, like Intel, AMD, Nvidia, they're all trying to figure out how to sort of figure out new and interesting ways of packaging all of the silicon in these processing units. And we've got a whole industry and science around the packaging mechanism to make those tiles, and that we now think of them as little tiles of processing power, and some that will be doing very specific jobs. Some will be doing very general jobs. It's now getting to the point where the science around the packaging of these dyes or these tiles is as much as the of the of the innovation, as the actual tiles and the processing on them. So it's an extremely complex technical problem, and we are hitting some walls here, which is why I go back to my earlier point. We're now reaching a point where is it just a technical problem we're solving, or a technical, operational and commercial problem we have to think about? And this is that wall that wall that you asked me about right at the beginning of this conversation. Are we about to hit a wall? And the answer is, yes.

Trevor Freeman 41:46

Interesting. I mean, I'm always fascinated by like, what are the what are the really smart people in the industry focusing their time on? And it's so that's why we're talking to you. Of you know, you're looking at, how do we operationalize this. How do we get the most efficient combination and structure of what we're doing here? There's folks that are looking at, how do we pack the most computing power efficiency into these specific units? I guess there's an aspect of, how do we cool this in the in the most effective way, like, what's, how do we, you know, drive down the cooling power needed? What else is out there, in terms of, like, we have smart people focused on this efficiency. What's the thing that's missing from that, that sort of list?

Phil Harris 42:36

Well, I think maybe what's going on right now. And if I could just add a, unfortunately, just one more layer of complexity. Remember said we were processing silicon? Well, the Earth's got lots of silicon, but we don't have lots of places to process that silicon. The companies that are formed to process silicon into these processing units, we call them foundries. The world's largest is TSMC, based in Taiwan. And then we have Intel, we have Samsung, we have a few others around the world. Global Foundry is another one. There is a limit, physical limit, because these foundries are huge and they take decades of development and optimization. So if we start breaking ground on a new foundry tomorrow, we'll see output in about five years. So we have a constrained supply. So if I'm if I'm Jensen at Nvidia or any of the big silicon manufacturers, I'm going to optimize that relatively constrained supply to where I'm going to get the best return on my investment. And that's why this scale up model is happening. So given that we know that we won't have any more foundry capacity of scale for another couple of years, at least, then the reality is we've got to think differently about how we're thinking about the processing of that silicon. Do I want just ever bigger processes that become more expensive, more limited in where I can deploy them. And quite frankly, the top 15 consumers in the world of silicon consume about 80% of that silicon, if not more. How do I democratize that? Again, it goes from scale up to a scale out model, where I can use that same processing capacity to produce more silicon.

Trevor Freeman 44:20

Fascinating. Yeah, I just, I took us down a little bit of a nerd out path. You had me really interested in that. Okay, so last question here, we hear this term for a bunch of different reasons. Around the world right now we're hearing this term democratizing, happening a lot, and I know you've talked about democratizing, AI, what does that mean? What does that mean to you, or describe that for us?

Phil Harris 44:48

Yeah, I think it really means. Going back to my last point about if 15 big consumers of silicon are going to consume the vast majority of verbal supply chain, that makes the. At a losing proposition for the rest of the organizations and the rest of the governments and the rest of the individuals on the planet. So how do we make sure that AI can be built both responsibly from a sustainability perspective, right? And I don't mean just the ecological side, but that's important here too, but also from the ability to I was on a panel yesterday between the UK Government and the Canadian government, where we're looking at how do countries around the world have the ability to control their own destiny? And there's this whole notion of sovereignty and AI sovereignty right now that isn't because people want to have closed walls around them, that you want to have choice. They don't want to be dictated to by very dominant players where they, quite frankly, don't have the buying power to compete. You know that the amount of capital going into some of the AI companies, we saw $30 billion going into anthropic last week. That's actually a small increase in their capitalization relative to the other big AI players on the planet. That's $30 billion so we've got to think to ourselves, is that a sustainable model commercially? And the answer is no. So we've got to have technology. We've got to have the right ability to deliver power. We've got to have the right designs of data centres that can keep them cooled in an effective and efficient and responsible way. And we've got to be able to give them enough power to make them viable, to make them useful. That's the democratization we all have to be focused on.

Trevor Freeman 46:25

And we need every, I guess, to sort of round of the point is we need everybody to be able, everybody being, you know, whatever, major industry, countries, whoever, to be able to access that equally, so that we don't have to rely on the major players out there in order to do those things you just said, gotcha.

Phil Harris 46:41

That's exactly right. And look, there'll always be a pyramid here. There always has been a technology. There's always still the big players, right? But the question is, have the big players the stifled out the ability for smaller players to come up, innovate, provide choice, provide alternative ways of looking at things, and that's what got to make sure that we keep the and this always relies on some new technology coming along that enables that. Sarah believes that we've created that next layer in the stack, if you like, of technologies that gives us that opportunity to rethink the innovation curve going forward.

Trevor Freeman 47:14

Very fascinating. Phil, thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. This has been super interesting. It's not an area that I often get to spend my time thinking about so is great to chat today. As as you know, we always kind of round out our interviews with the same series of questions to our guests. So what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

Phil Harris 47:34

Well, I'm not sure I can recommend this for everybody. One of the people who basically, along the lines of some of the things I've been talking about today, who revolutionized the computer world was a gentleman by the name of Linus Torvald in Helsinki in Finland. At the time, he's now based in the States, he realized that there was a dominance around how the operating systems on computers, the things that run the software, was limiting, basically, innovation choice and forcing us down a very closed path. So he wrote something called Linux, which was a new operating system. So be on your phone, your TV, your microwave that's running Linux today. Interesting because there wasn't an operating system that we could then generally deploy. That meant there was more developers had the ability to write applications, more hardware vendors could now have software they could run on their on their platforms. He gave the world a new innovation curve. And every time this happens to my last point, good things happen. Very good things happen for the world, for every individual on the planet. And Linus was one of those individuals who saw that need. And so his book, just for fun, and he's a very quirky guy, as you can probably imagine, is a great book about his philosophical approach to what it takes to change really big problems. And I would encourage all of you just to even just read the first few chapters. It's a fascinating view of how an incredibly smart man, smart individual took on probably one of the biggest problems we had in the 20th and 21st Century of computing, and solved it by recognizing you take a different path.

Trevor Freeman 49:11

Yeah, very cool.

Phil Harris 49:12

As far as shows, um, I don't know. I'm one of these guys. I've got two 13 year old daughters. So my wife and I get to watch TV for a very limited amount of time where we can watch it, about the things we want to watch, so we tend to sort of cram things in. But I'm a huge Aaron Sorkin fan, so if I ever need something on a rainy day to go back just to think about how the world could be, I watch the West Wing. It's a show that's imaginary. It's got incredible script writing, it's got incredible character development, but it really talks about how to think about doing the right thing as well. Now, whether you agree with the politics or not, that's a different question, but just the thought that smart thinking solves big problems, again, sort of It's a bit like the Linus Torvald book. It just speaks to me about sometimes we can solve big problems. With individuals or people who just had the right way of thinking about things.

Trevor Freeman 50:00

Yeah, I think that's the kind of, you know, call it entertainment, because it is entertainment, but it's the entertainment that sticks with you, and that we go back to time and again, is the ones that we can also, like, see the the underlying philosophy, or, you know, theory of change that goes into that entertainment. And it's, it's fun to watch. It's, you know, either humorous or dramatic or whatever, but there's still that underlying message. And I think, yeah, West Wing is a great example of of that. There's a handful of those other sort of classic shows that are in that line too. A free round trip flight anywhere in the world. Where would you go?

Phil Harris 50:40

This is hard. My wife and I were talking about this the other day, and I've had the luxury of traveling just about everywhere. I think there's 15 countries on the planet I haven't been to, but if I ever want to go to one place is Bali. And there's two reasons. One, my wife and I went there for a honeymoon, and it was the beginning of the most important chapter of my life by far. And secondly, it's because it has that balance of everything. It's I love to scuba dive. I love the rainforests, the jungle, the architecture, the people, the food. It just brings everything into one package for me. And so it just again. It's those things that sort of speak to you emotionally and also intellectually. It's one of those things that I could always go back too.

Trevor Freeman 51:26

Fantastic. Who is someone that you admire?

Phil Harris 51:29

In history or today?

Trevor Freeman 51:32

You pick, anything.

Phil Harris 51:33

that's fascinating. I think historically it's under Brit it's hard not to go back to some of my forebears, or my country's forebears, Alan Turing, who, against all adversity, social, political, technical, came up with an inspirational way of thinking about solving what are deemed to be unsolvable. And again, it's a tragic story. I think we've all, if you see the movie that was made about his life, it's a very tragic story, but it's an inspirational story about how, again, if you just take a different approach to solving what seems to be an unsolvable problem, you can you get smart people together. Doesn't have to be a big army of people. I think so. Turing is one of those people that always comes back for me t think, wow, if I could have just some of his courage and some of his imagination and some of his intellect, I'd be a very happy person.

Trevor Freeman 52:29

Yeah, and it's almost, I mean, obviously, a brilliant man, but it's the willing to think in a different way, or willing to approach a problem in a different way that I mean, there's a long list in history of major turning points that are as a result of someone thinking in a different way or doing something in a different way. And I think that's a great example of it.

Phil Harris 52:49

Just about the entire course of human life are in the midpoint of the 20th century, change on that, that man's inspiration, that man's imagination.

Trevor Freeman 52:57

Yeah, and that's, that's not an understatement. That's fantastic. Okay, last question, what's something about, kind of the energy sector, or, you know, your sector that that you're really excited about, or something that you see in the future that you're really excited about?

Phil Harris 53:09

Actually, I see it now, to be honest, there are things in the future. Hey, I have two 13 year old kids. I want to have a sustainable ecology and world environment for them to live in and bring their own families up in. And I think about how we can use power more efficiently, but how we can make it look sustainability is important. I want to see renewable, sustainable energy for the general world as a thesis right now. It's how we can be much more efficient in the use of power and the right power delivery. And I think, as I said, I gave the think on example, that's incredibly exciting, because now, if we can do that at scale, that's an opportunity to do that democratization that I spoke about. So when I think about the things that really excited me about the data centre world, the world I live in, actually that power generation and power availability in a clean, effective, well managed fashion is exactly what we need right now, while the rest of us are solving these transistor problems.

Trevor Freeman 54:04

Yeah, it's, I mean, our listeners are probably going to roll their eyes, because I say this all the time, but one of the things that excites me the most is seeing like we're in a period of change, and that's a really exciting time to be working in this and I kind of hear that from you in your sector as well, and I see it in mine, in the energy sector of we're actually getting to see some of this innovation, some of these like leaps and bounds forward. That's not to say there aren't still problems. It's not to say there aren't steps backwards as well. But it's very cool to be working on this in a time when we're seeing that change, and that's kind of what I'm hearing from you as well. Indeed. Awesome. Phil, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. This has been great. Chatting with you.

Phil Harris 54:42

Trevor, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you.

Trevor Freeman 54:44

Fantastic. Take care.

Phil Harris 54:46

Take care.

Trevor Freeman 54:47

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you whether. Feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenerg@hydroottawa.com.

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How are we preparing the next generation of energy professionals? Kieran Graham, student of the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University, is set to embark on his career in the energy sector. Kieran joins thinkenergy to chat about his studies, from thermodynamics to power generation, regulatory to economic aspects, and what's on the horizon for the industry and his future. Listen in for a fresh perspective on the future of energy with a next-gen energy professional.

Related links: Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program, Carleton University: https://admissions.carleton.ca/programs/sustainable-and-renewable-energy-engineering/

APEX Lab, Carleton University: https://carleton.ca/apex/ Kieran Graham on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kierangraham1/

Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone and welcome back. We know that we are already in this period of change that we call the energy transition, but this is not a short term thing. We will be in this period of change for years and likely decades to come. And that means that the next generation of energy professionals, so engineers, policy experts, customer focused, people, finance and so on and so on, they might spend their entire careers working on this. So I thought it would be interesting to check in with someone who's just about to enter the workforce to find out how we're preparing that next generation to dive head first into this challenge and hopefully bring innovative and exciting solutions to the table. This is a career and society defining challenge. This is something that we'll be focusing on for many, many years to come. So I really wanted to understand what is that next generation learning. Now I'm sure you'd all agree that what you learn in your formal schooling is only one small part of the knowledge base and skill set that is important for contributing in a meaningful way. I know that the things I became really excited about and passionate about as I was getting through my engineering degree really helped set my course and have led me to where I am today, and definitely was not the course I thought I was on when I started engineering school. And for the record, these things that I became really passionate exciting about weren't, you know, the fluid dynamics and soil mechanics and thermodynamics and all these courses I was taking. It was the concepts and the way of thinking and the things I became passionate about. So all that being said, I'm pretty excited today to talk to my guests about what he has been learning and how he thinks that's setting him up for a career focused on energy. Kieran Graham is in his final year of his degree at Carleton University here in Ottawa, and he's in the sustainable and renewable energy engineering program. I love the fact that we have a whole focus program on clean and renewable energy, that's fantastic. Kieran is the president of the Sustainable and Renewable Engineering Society, and he helps organize academic social and networking events for students in that program and others that are interested in sustainable and renewable energy. He has worked with the apex lab at Carleton, doing research on various carbon capture technologies, and he was also the organizer, or one of the organizers, for the 2026 Ontario Engineering Competition. Kieran Graham, welcome to the show.

Kieran Graham 02:48

Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited.

Trevor Freeman 02:50

So Kieran, let's start with a little bit of background on your program at University. So you're in the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University. Tell us a little bit about what that program is and what you focus on.

Kieran Graham 03:03

Yeah, so I will admit it's a little confusing at first, like Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering, the long name, and then we have two streams. So one's called Smart Technologies for Power Generation Distribution, the other one's about efficient energy conversion. So the easiest way to actually differentiate these two is electrical and mechanical. So smart technologies is electrical efficient conversion is a more mechanical. So like, if you have know anything about engineering disciplines, it's electrical and mechanical.

Trevor Freeman 03:35

Gotcha

Kieran Graham 03:36

Also, by the way, SREE is short form for sustainable renewable energy engineering, just to save us some fumbling over our words, in the future, perfect.

Trevor Freeman 03:45

This is a very acronym heavy podcast at time, so I appreciate you spelling that out for us. So when we when we hear SREE, you're talking about the program, gotcha. So give us an idea of, like, what's the focus of the program more broadly?

Kieran Graham 03:58

Yeah, so like, I'm in the electrical stream. So I take a lot of different courses at the beginning, ranging from fluid mechanics, and we take electrical courses like circuits and signals and just Electronics One. But then we also later take courses that are more SREE specific, that are more focused on learning how we are using thermodynamics to then put it through as a turbine and then create that energy. And then, how is it work, specifically with a nuclear power plant, or we even learn a little bit about natural gas, but just for context. And then, how does that differ from generating electricity with wind in a wind turbine. It's pretty similar, but like, how where's the difference? And like, how do we apply that in different scenarios?

Trevor Freeman 04:48

Got you so if I could say that back to you. You know, when I was in energy or engineering school, I learned a lot about those fundamentals. I learned, we know, we did thermodynamics, we did all that kind. Of stuff we just mentioned, but the application to power generation, and the renewable aspect of it, the sustainability side, that was all stuff I learned later in my career. You're building that into your programs. Kind of built that into what you're learning. So you're learning the more traditional engineering side of things, the thermodynamics and how this stuff works, but in the context of power generation, I assume, you know, like application of power generation, like how the grid works, things like that.

Kieran Graham 05:28

Yeah, exactly. So we take a little bits of courses that other programs will take, and then I got, first we're taking those same courses, and then we take other courses that are really specific, and we apply them to sustainable and renewable energy engineering. The other thing is, later in our degree, we also apply things on a more higher level, like energy is kind of like a high level topic. There's so many things that are happening and there's a lot of regulatory and economic aspects to it. So we have to look at, like, the energy market and like, yes, like nuclear fusion is like a great option if it works and if it's economically viable. And you know, nuclear has its own regulatory aspect, so we have that coverage of information and knowledge later in the years.

Trevor Freeman 06:17

Gotcha so. And for our listeners out there who are not kind of engineering nerds like Kieran and I. One of the things how I describe engineering more broadly is that it's sort of a systems thinking approach to things. So understanding, what are my inputs? What's the result of those inputs? What does that mean for the output? What are the feedback loops? And so what I'm hearing you say, Kieran, is that it's bringing that into the energy sector, the energy industry, which is fantastic, like, really exciting to hear that this is, this is what you're learning, and this is what the next sort of generation of engineers is being taught right now. How did you end up in this program? What drew you to this particular field of engineering?

Kieran Graham 07:01

Yeah, so it's a little complicated, because when I applied to university, I knew I wanted to stay in Ottawa, and my parents both went to Carleton. My grandpa worked at Carleton like when it was first established, so I had deep roots there. And in my mind, Carleton is a superior University in Ottawa. I know that's controversial, but, you know, it's okay. But anyways, I applied to three different engineerings at Carleton, and my first choice was actually aerospace engineering, because in high school, it was kind of like a this was the prestige of making aerospace engineering. And I actually got in and my first year I was in aerospace engineering, but at Carleton, first year, engineering is all general. So after first year, I decided that my goals, and I don't want to talk down to my aerospace colleagues, but my morals and my aspirations were more set towards a sustainable and renewable energy engineering focus. So sustainable renewable energy engineering was my second choice going into Carleton, so it's a pretty easy switch in second year, but from my childhood, I had an aunt who worked for Greenpeace Canada and also just learning about sustainability in my house and at school, this just seemed like a natural, good choice.

Trevor Freeman 08:28

My journey, and we won't get into the details of my journey, but it echoes that a lot of kind of having an idea going into engineering school and at some point, realizing that maybe this doesn't line up with my values, or what I want to do, the impact that I want to have. And that kind of gets into my next question of, you know, generally, the engineering profession is built around having an impact, a positive impact on society, on people, and using a, like I said, systems thinking approach to that. That's sort of the bar that we try and live up to. So, you know, you talked about wanting to have an impact. What does that impact me? Or what is having a positive impact mean for you, and how do you see yourself contributing as you're nearing the end of your education, at least formal education side of your undergrad?

Kieran Graham 09:14

Yeah, so I actually just took my engineering professional practices course, which I learned about the code of ethics and how the engineers duty is paramount to serving the public. And I think that actually really resonated with me as much as you know, the course is a lot of just talking about regulatory stuff, it actually was refreshing and good to hear that that's like the regulatory view on what engineering should be, because my personal goals are very much to have a positive and strong impact on society, and specifically like my local community. You know, my family's deeply rooted in Ottawa, so I want to have a good, positive impact. Impact on Ottawa. So I guess when I switched from aerospace to sustainable energy, I decided that, like, there's a climate crisis right now, and I just saw the opportunity to create a large positive impact within engineering, which I was really enjoying and helped solve those problems of having that net zero or clean energy solution, which was being so, like, stressed upon within, like, my whole life,

Trevor Freeman 10:31

That's great, yeah. I mean, it's, it's definitely, in my opinion, and I think this has been echoed a lot on this podcast, is, you know, the energy transition, the climate crisis, and sort of our reaction to that is definitely, the defining challenge of our of our time right now, and certainly, certainly your career, probably moving forward in this field. So looking at the energy transition, what skills or knowledge do you think you've developed throughout the last couple of years in your undergrad that have prepared you to contribute to this. You know, rapidly changing industry that the electricity sector, the energy sector of today is not the same as it was five years ago, and it won't be the same in five years. So coming into it at this point, what do you think you're bringing to the table that's going to help contribute to that?

Kieran Graham 11:23

Yeah. So, I mean, it's the whole point of the program. And you know, people running, I'll shout out Ahmed Abdullah, a professor who's really been heading the SREE program. And so the, really, the big goal of SREE is like to be multidisciplinary, and being able to approach all the different aspects of this climate crisis and energy transition. You need to be able to understand how, like, I said, like the mechanical thermodynamics and fluid dynamics work, but also understand how a electric generator works, and then how transmission works, and need to understand, like, what's the point of creating solar in the desert, if you have to then transfer it all the way to, I don't know, somewhere in Europe, or something like, those are the large scale aspects that you need to be able to understand. The other thing that's also really important is just having the knowledge of understanding how like load profiles work and how data analysis and understanding like this is what a good load profile looks like. This is a problem like the duck curve or problems like this, like that, we as three engineers really understand, like how these different problems are created, and then how we can fix them and where they're being affected, like the duck curve in California, and like in Canada, we have a winter peaking system. Like all these problems are different, different aspects that we are very knowledgeable on and already have a base understanding of. And I think that's what's really important and helpful going into this industry.

Trevor Freeman 13:04

Yeah, that's great. Has there been a time during your program, during your undergrad, or a project that you've worked on that has really kind of changed the way you view energy or the electricity grid, or open your eyes to something that you weren't aware of before, really kind of, yeah, drove your passion for it?

Kieran Graham 13:27

Yeah, so, you know, there's been many problems and projects that I've had throughout my degree, and you know, the view and impact on my motivation has been very hopeful and very doubtful in equal amounts. But I would say maybe more helpful hopeful in the in the future, just because sometimes in school, things get a little stressful and blow up in proportion. But I'd say my biggest hopeful, I guess, and changing my my view of things would be my capstone project. So the capstone project that I'm working on currently is focusing on a net zero 2050 Ottawa. And how are we going to prepare for that? How are we going to handle the generation for that? How are we going to get energy places? How are we going to handle the winter peaks of electrifying, heating. How are we going to deal with EVs? It's a never ending puzzle slash scavenger hunt of finding data and how do things work together? How do we piece it together? Yeah, it's been a great challenge, but also really opened my eyes up to how all these, these different sectors that I've been learning about in my degree, how do these all work fit together and solve a problem.

Trevor Freeman 14:52

Great, yeah, and that's exactly where I want to go next. So, so I'm glad you brought up your capstone project. Just a quick backgrounder for our listeners. A part of an engineering undergrad in Ontario, at least, I think across Canada, is a final year project which is known as the capstone project. So the idea of the capstone project is it's supposed to be a culmination of all the different sort of theoretical things you've learned in your degree, bringing all that knowledge together and giving the students a chance to apply that in some real world scenarios. So, you know, it's interesting, Kieran, to know that your capstone was looking at what does a net zero 2050 reality look like for the City of Ottawa? Because the City of Ottawa has a 2050 Net Zero target, 2040 actually, for the corporation of the City of Ottawa, and 2050 for the community. And there's, there's lots of moving parts to that. It's a real world thing that's happening that a lot of folks are working on. So I'd like to dig into that a little bit more with you and find out. And I know you're not quite finished it yet, so you're not going to have all the answers, but you know what? What are some of the things that you're looking at? What are some of the must do's for us as society and us as a city and all the stakeholders involved if we're going to to achieve that net zero reality?

Speaker 1 16:17

Yeah, so we are a group of, I think, 18 or 19 different undergraduates for all, hopefully graduating at the end of the semester. And so this project is happens every year for the past, like four or five years, I think, and we're the third year focusing on Ottawa. So there's been a lot of things covered. And honestly, at the beginning of the project, we were like, how could we possibly have a third year of material to study? And I think now that we're approaching the final we're realizing how much there is to look at, and maybe we'll have some notes for next year saying, like, there really is a million things that we could look at in this scope. Like, it's just a really big scope, but we have, like, a buildings team, an energy storage team, a nuclear team, a solar team, and a transportation team, and I'm on the integration team, so my job is really just trying to put things together from all the different sub teams who are focusing on very specific things, and Specifically I'm the integration team lead. So I'm focusing on load prediction. So like, in 2050 what's the load that we're going to need to have? And that really, including working with transportation and buildings and understanding how, like, the EVS and the heat pumps and electrified heating are we going to have district heating, like, how is all this going to affect our 2050 load.

Trevor Freeman 17:46

And so what are some of those strategies? Like, the things you mentioned are bang on. That's of course, the things that are going to drive our demand. Are you looking at providing that additional capacity? You know, with local generation, what's the what's the strategy there? How do we have enough energy and have enough clean energy in order to meet that growing demand that you've identified?

Kieran Graham 18:10

Yeah, so that's like the big problem, right? So I'm doing load prediction, and then we have teams like nuclear and solar. And past years we've had wind teams, and I think there was a biofuels team as well past years, and we put all this data, kind of on two sides, and then we feed it through an optimization software that someone is working on in my team, and it's going to look at economically, how competitive something like solar or nuclear or wind or hydro, I guess would be looking within Ottawa like, how do all these compare? And it's all really about economics. When you're looking at it like, which is feasible because there's lots of cool technologies, like I mentioned earlier, but it's optimizing for cost, and then we're finding a low profile, and then ultimately, we want to run it through a software called eTap, which basically is like a digital twin for looking at energy load flow analysis and making sure the grid can actually handle this 2050 load.

Trevor Freeman 19:16

And so you've identified kind of the technology challenges and solutions. I'm glad to hear you talk about like, you know, the economics have to make sense. Of course, there are technologies out there that, yeah, if there was unlimited resources, it would solve our problems. What about the sort of, I guess there's sort of two streams here. There's the regulatory, or let's call it the political side, the enabling aspects of, how do we get this technology that makes sense and has a business case? How do we get that deployed, more deployed faster, you know, more broadly, how do we do that? Did you look at the sort of regulatory, political side of things?

Kieran Graham 19:56

Yeah, so in our capstone, we don't necessarily look. At it super specifically, like we're not necessarily looking at how regulations would affect it, but it's more we're going to be looking at scenarios of, if we have 100 per cent EV adoption in 2050 what is the load going to look like? But you know, the changing of the federal EV mandate, how is that going to look at change the load projection, and then, how is that going to affect our generation? Like, what do we like if we have huge peaks our nuclear teams generation, which won't necessarily be able to ramp as fast as something like a battery storage or or like a hydro dam, or something like these. These are the complications that we're looking at, not necessarily super focused on regulation, but keeping it as like a guiding prospect of, should we be considering 100 per cent EVs, like, is that really a realistic goal for 2015 at this point?

Trevor Freeman 20:59

Yeah. And I guess it's kind of the same thing. And so maybe the answer is similar, but it's this the societal side of things too. And so yeah, like, from a technology perspective, it would be great if we hit that 100 per cent EV coverage by 2050, if not sooner. We know that that's a big source of emissions. It'd be great if we could do sort of like mass heat pump deployment. But at the end of the day, people, you know, we're relying on individuals within our society to make those decisions, and so one aspect of this is, how do we help that be the right decision? And how do we help people want to do this? Because it is the smarter choices. Has that conversation come into the project, and it's okay if it hasn't, I know there's obviously a limited scope of the project. Scope of the project, but is that something that you guys are talking through?

Kieran Graham 21:52

Yeah, I think that's something that we are always like talking about as, like a bunch of young engineers who are really looking to understand the industry. And, you know, making sure these things actually happen is always kind of on our mind, like, what's the point of us doing all this work? And, you know, stressing ourselves till two and two in the morning getting our work done or getting ready for a presentation. It's like, why are we doing all of this? I think you know, the aspect of community involvement and the regulatory and making it make sense is part of our job. Like, yes, that maybe our focus isn't necessarily on making it all make sense for the public, but it's, it's something that we have to consider. Like, if it's not economically and like socially viable, then isn't there's no there's no point. Like, it's just not, not a proper engineering solution. So I think ultimately, it's not something that we're focusing on, but something that we talk about all the time, that like, like we go to community events and kind of learn about what people's like outlooks are on, on all these different problems. And would people be okay with having battery systems and solar systems on their house, and would they be okay with using those, as you know, distributed energy resources that can feed back to the grid? Would people be okay with bi directional charging on their EVs like these are big batteries that could be used for different things. Like these aren't necessarily direct considerations of our capstone, but something that we keep in mind when we're trying to create a solution.

Trevor Freeman 23:26

Yeah, great. And I'm glad to hear you say that, and I'm glad it's part of the conversation. It's certainly, it's certainly a huge aspect of how we actually deploy these strategies and solutions and how we develop them. It's a big part of you know what I get to do at Hydro Ottawa, being on the customer side of things, is listening to our customers and understanding what their realities are, and trying to find ways of okay, well, how does that match up with programs or opportunities that we have to be able to run. So really glad to hear that you're talking through that the challenge of decarbonizing our energy mix. So going from sort of like fossil fuel combustion energy generation to a cleaner solution is really only one challenge that's facing the energy sector. I'm sure you're aware, you've brought up things that are causing an increase in demand, but we're also seeing, you know, non-climate related drivers of increased energy demand. So I'm thinking about, like, AI proliferation and data center growth and all these things. Is that part of the calculus that goes into your project. Are you thinking of, how do we also meet this growing energy demand for non-climate related reasons?

Kieran Graham 24:48

Yeah. I mean, you know, understanding the energy mix, and you know, the load for the future is really difficult, and I know that's my whole job, but you know, if I had an A plus answer, I. Wouldn't have to worry about capstone for the next couple of months. But you know, all these considerations I'm thinking about, so like when I'm getting buildings data from the commercial sector and the residential sector, industry is not very big in Ottawa as an electrical load, at least, but I need to look at that for load prediction, because maybe industry load is going to increase with data center, like, where does that fall under the data the energy split, I know like Kanata Tech Center, like, that's going to be growing, and that's a big energy load, and I know it's a big stress on distribution systems, and the feeders over there struggling, and I know Hydro Ottawa is planning to upgrade those locations. But how can we maybe predict that, like data center or data center like load in Canada, that? How can we deal with that in different way, like adding a battery system over there, or maybe generation closer to there, which just stress the overall grid less.

Trevor Freeman 26:05

Yeah, I think it's in, you know, for our non-Ottawa listeners, Kanata is a part of the city that has a high concentration of, sort of the high tech sector. It's, it's certainly a growing area in Ottawa, and one of our constrained areas on the grid that we're investing in and bringing a lot additional capacity to in the coming years. So those challenges that you identified, how do we deal with, not only this energy transition from a clean technology perspective, but also a changing economic demographics like we're seeing more investment in these areas, and how do we make sure that we're keeping up. So yeah, that's definitely, definitely a part of it. So one of the goals of the podcast is definitely to make sure the message is clear that the energy transition is not something of the future. It's not something that will happen eventually. We're in it right now. We're seeing the change to our to the way we use energy, and the way we produce energy and move and store and all those things. So is there something that's happening now, you know, within the energy space that you're particularly excited about that you've, you've kind of learned about in the last little while that you want to get involved in when you when you graduate?

Kieran Graham 27:16

Yeah, so my whole degree is about this. So there's so many different aspects that I could talk about in that I'm interested in. And specifically to my capstone, machine learning is a big field in pretty much anything like machine learning and AI will be involved in any sort of capacity, in any industry. I'm sure. The problem with my specific application is I'm trying to predict 2050, load, and our load for the past few years hasn't really been increasing. Due to efficiency, and there was covid and different aspects like that. And so how do we apply that, and what, what kind of way is really interesting. But another thing that I'm really interested in is virtual power plants and stuff like micro grids. And how does all these, these little DERs and non-wire solutions, how do all these these work together? And how can we, like as a community, work with our So, like solar on our houses, or battery systems in our houses, our EVs, our bidirectional charging, as I mentioned earlier, like how, how could these technologies work together to really reduce the stress on the distribution system for you guys at Hydro Ottawa? And how could everything work together? And you see it happening in California. It's like being tested. If I think Ottawa would just be a great place for this, because of the nature of everyone having cars and everything's everyone has big, pretty big houses. We can have solar on our roofs, like, yes, we have a winter but which has less sunlight, but solar is still incredibly viable and useful. So how can all of this work together and become a virtual power plant that one house has energy and you know, the generations not able to keep up, or the distribution system is failing for whatever reason, you can rely on a community which has battery systems or generation systems just locally. How can we use that to then power each other's houses? I think that's really cool, a future thing that really looking forward to.

Trevor Freeman 29:26

Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that gets talked a lot about, and, you know, in the industry in general, but even, you know, at Hydro Ottawa, looking at, how do we leverage, you know, this is what you're talking about. How do we leverage customer owned devices, customer equipment, to help manage grid capacity needs. So if we're in a time of increased demand on the grid, how do we make calls out to people that have batteries, people that have EVs, that are plugged in, people that have smart devices in their home, and say, Hey, we need a little bit of capacity. We're going to ask you to draw from your battery instead of the grid, or we're going to ask you to pause your EV charging, or turn your thermostat down a degree in order to generate that capacity on the grid. And it's, it's not even so much, you know, it's, it's not that the grid is failing and able to keep up. It's otherwise we would have to build a much bigger grid. We'd have to invest more in the grid. This lets us be more efficient with how we invest in the grid and how we build out so we can sort of not over build, which traditionally what we do is we kind of build the worst case scenario. What? What would we do if that worst case scenario wasn't as bad, if we could pull on these, these other customer owned equipment? So yeah, very cool concept, and definitely something that we're looking at here at Hydro Ottawa, and have a couple pilots coming up on that.

Kieran Graham 30:53

Yeah. And I just wanted to say, like earlier, you're mentioning, like, how do we work on, how do we solve these solutions of net zero within a community, I just think, like the adoption and community incentives and how do we work together? Like, these are the solutions. These are, these are the things that if we as a community decide to do, it's just a very viable thing. It's just we need to be able to work together as a community to be able to do it.

Trevor Freeman 31:22

Yeah, so, you know, we've been talking a little bit about a different approach to energy and that community approach. I really like that based on on what you know from your studies and your experience in this area. What do you think the utility of the future looks like, like? What does that look like to you? What is the role of the utility moving forward?

Kieran Graham 31:47

Yeah, so it's a hard question, because obviously, there's so many things that could happen. And you know, like I was saying, predicting the future is very hard, and I can't just, can't just use machine learning. It's not a pattern. It's not like something that's going to be super predictable. But I do think like the idea of micro grids and working together and distributed energy resources, like all these things are going to be needed to be able to work together. So there's going to be so many little systems and organization, and the utility was going to be the person, kind of, like a mini IESO, I guess, like, how, like, you're going to be controlling, or not necessarily controlling, but organizing. Who's going to be using their DERs, like, which areas are going to need more solar deployment? Where can we integrate vehicle to grid charging? Where can we add more charging infrastructure for communities? Where can we put, like, community batteries, like, more of like an organizer of even smaller systems within the community. I think that's just the nature of technology is going to be, come more complicated, but we're also going to become more proficient and be able to organize those things. So, yeah, I guess that's, that's what I view the future of utilities.

Trevor Freeman 33:17

Yeah, it's, it's a little bit, you know, lots of, lots of, lots of concepts. There it's, it's getting a little bit closer to the end user when it when we look at, how do we operate the grid? So right now, you brought up the IESO, that's our Independent Electricity System Operator who operates on the provincial level. I think the future is that that that level of operation gets a little bit closer to the end user, and that the local distribution companies like Hydro Ottawa have more control to identify where does the grid need extra capacity? Where does it have capacity that we can shift? And that's all happening at the same time as technology is giving us more insight into that. We're having we're going to have more understanding of what's happening down at that granular level. So we're going to be able to make these calls a little bit better. So, yeah, I think, I think you're on the right track. I think that's, that's where we're going. We're going to more of a bidirectional flow of energy, a little bit more closer to the end user control over how the grid is operated.

Kieran Graham 34:20

Yeah, and in our classes, we learn about, like in Europe, how they have bidirectional charging and generation. In like Germany, people have solar panels on their balconies everywhere, and it the solar penetration like Germany, a lot of parts of Germany are on the same latitude as us. So it's like, it's not infeasible for like Ottawa, to have solar everywhere and have that be part of the grid, and not just for your own benefit or anything like that. Like, it's a, it's a real possibility.

Trevor Freeman 34:51

Yeah, yeah. I think there's, there's lots of things that we can do to really improve, to really leverage the devices that are out there, to leverage. Opportunities that we have in front of us. So, Kieran, as we kind of get close to the end of our conversation here, are there any words of wisdom that you'd like to share? You know, you're kind of at the end of the beginning of your career journey. Here, you're almost done your undergrad, about to take whatever next steps there are, that's, you know, starting your career or further education. What about you know someone who's maybe at the start of that part of their journey? You know someone that's thinking about wanting to get involved in the energy transition, maybe wanting a career in that space. What words of wisdom would you provide?

Kieran Graham 35:35

Yeah, so I mean, there's plenty of things I would recommend, you know, for young students, and for people similar approaching my situation, I think the biggest thing is just like networking and creating communities. Like, if you're a new student going into school, like, be part of socials. Be part of engineering societies, and or not engineering societies even like you can just any sort of club or sports team, or just have a community of people that you can really rely on to, like, if you're struggling with an assignment or a topic or a certain class, just like, have someone to be able to talk to talk through like that topic, and ultimately, like those connections who are helping you out with things Like, it'll go back, and they'll be like, Hey, do you understand this? You can get help them. And then you have a friendship, you have a connection, you have someone who's maybe going to work in a field that, like, in the future, you'll be able to leverage to get a job. Like, I have people who, you know, I helped in, or probably they helped me more because they were in older years, and they are working at different industries, and I can now talk to them and be like, hey, like, how do you like your new job now that you're in the workforce, and do you have any opportunities that I can, I could look into working for? So really creating that network of people who can help you out with those things, like you don't have to do it alone, and it really just opens your eyes and allows you to have really good conversations and prepare you for the future.

Trevor Freeman 37:08

Yeah, so if I could, if I could just build on that, it's the importance of creating those connections in that community is great for your own learning, your own knowledge, but also for solving problems, like, no problem is solved by a single discipline or a single focus. You know, it's great that you're learning all these tools in your engineering degree, but you know, real problems get solved by a mix of, you know, the engineer folks, the finance folks, the customer side of things, the, you know, societal side of things. So really great advice. Thanks for sharing that with us. So Kieran, we always end our interviews with a series of questions that I ask to all our guests, so I'll dive right into those. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

Kieran Graham 37:56

Yeah, so a lot of my reading has been textbooks recently, but I think when I have the time I read a lot of dystopian, so I'll say Fahrenheit 451, even though it's a pretty common one, but it's just really good and really relevant to things.

Trevor Freeman 38:10

So yeah, definitely one of those classics that's important for everyone to read or at least be aware of. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's one that you would recommend everybody?

Kieran Graham 38:21

Yeah, there's plenty of good shows those are a little bit easier to find some time and brain power for, but big Star Wars fan, so I'm going to say Andor, just a really good show, really relevant, really love that show.

Trevor Freeman 38:34

Yeah, fantastic. I agree. And I just so my oldest kid is 12, and I've just got him starting to watch that one. So it's a great. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Kieran Graham 38:49

Yeah, another really hard question. I'm going to Peru right after I graduate. So if you guys wanted to pay for that, that would be great.

Trevor Freeman 38:56

It's not an offer. Just to be clear.

Kieran Graham 38:58

No, I know. I would just say, like, maybe I really have been seeing these videos about Kyrgyzstan, like the those, like East Asian or, guess, Western Asia countries like Kyrgyzstan would be really cool.

Trevor Freeman 39:17

Cool. Yeah, very neat. Who's someone that you admire?

Kieran Graham 39:20

Yeah, so I admire plenty of people. I think I'm going to say my grandpa, though. I've always looked up to him and like how he lives his life, and, you know, he's funny, and just like, has really good values. And I think he's just someone who I ultimately, as a person, look up to. And you know, he worked at Carlton, so I don't know it's just like, the future of like, where I would like to see myself.

Trevor Freeman 39:48

Great. Yeah, great answer. And finally, what's something that you're really excited about when it comes to the energy sector, its future, and you have the benefit of being at the very beginning of your career, you get to get involved in this. So what's something you're excited about?

Kieran Graham 39:59

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I said earlier, like, there's plenty of things, but I'll say virtual power plants again. Like, if we could create a community where we have DERs and are working together micro grids and all of this, like, that would be so amazing. It'd be so cool. So I think that's going to be, that's my thing. I'm super excited for.

Trevor Freeman 40:21

Very cool well, I'm very excited to see you get involved in that, and thanks for your time today. Kieran, it's great to chat with you. It's great to get some insight into kind of what the next generation of engineers are learning and really looking forward to, kind of seeing where you land in short order here and what your career starts to look like. So thanks very much.

Kieran Graham 40:41

Awesome. Thank you very much.

Trevor Freeman 40:43

Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Trees are a major cause of power outages. They're also a wildfire risk—when branches hit a conductor, a small spark can become a big blaze. Lynn Petesch of Overstory joins thinkenergy to talk trees, exploring how AI, satellite imagery, and vegetation intelligence help utilities prevent outages and reduce wildfire threats. Including Hydro Ottawa, who saw a 44% drop in tree-related outages since partnering with Overstory. Listen in for how we work together to keep the grid safe in an era of extreme weather.

Related links

• Overstory: https://www.overstory.com/
• Lynn Petesch on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynnpetesch/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. Today on thinkenergy, we're going to be talking about trees. Yes, you heard that correctly. Trees. I know this is a show about energy, but there's actually a very real connection between our electricity grid and those slow growing, majestic givers of shade, lumber, fruit and so many more benefits. Honestly, who doesn't love trees? But I'm not just kicking this episode off in my capacity as a tree hugger. Let's take a look at this through a utility lens, and I will use Hydro Ottawa as an example. Hydro Ottawa service territory includes some very rural and very forested areas. Even our urban territory has a fairly extensive tree canopy. As a result, Hydro Ottawa trims about 60,000 trees each year. Why? Because trees contracting power infrastructure is a big problem. Tree interference remains a leading cause of power outages for us. Strong winds force them onto our wires. Heavy snow or freezing rain builds up and weighs down branches, breaks limbs, and increases the risk that part of a tree may touch a line, and in some extreme cases, heavy storms can even send trees or branches crashing into our poles, damaging the poles. The struggle between power lines and trees, which, again, don't get me wrong, we all love trees, has been going on for years. There is a constant struggle between trimming enough and getting the right trees trimmed and maintaining as much tree coverage as we can. In 2022 we identified a disruptor in this dance, the solution came through a partnership with Overstory, a company that uses satellite imagery, infrared technology and artificial intelligence to help utilities manage vegetation and trim trees more efficiently. And the timing could not have been better. Just days after we started working with Overstory in the spring of 2022 the derecho hit Ottawa. Our Ottawa based listeners will remember this storm well. It was monumental in the history of our city, and indeed for us as utility, winds reached 190 kilometers an hour. For our non-metric listeners, that's nearly 120 miles per hour. The storm ripped through poles houses and cause considerable damage to our city's urban forests. Overstory played a crucial role during the cleanup and in helping us level up our vegetation management strategies moving forward, we realized that the insights we got from Overstory would help improve our proactive approach to tree encroachment and hazard identification, and this is essential in this era of extreme weather events. We know that climate change is causing more frequent and more extreme weather events. According to Climate Central, the number of weather related power outages in the United States increased by 78% between 2011 and 2021 and severe weather accounted for over 1000 outages across Nova Scotia just in the year of 2024 we want to keep you connected during these heavy storms, and that's why we're looking to organizations like Overstory. So what does Overstory do to help us keep the lights on? Well, without giving away too much, because we're going to get into the details shortly, Overstory through a detailed analysis of the scans they do of our entire grid, identifies high risk areas, which we can then prioritize and better focus our resources when it comes to vegetation management, this level of monitoring and focus reduces the risk of trees from coming into contact with our poles and disrupting Your connection to the grid, the results speak for themselves. Since partnering with Overstory, we've reduced vegetation related outages by 44% and that's only part of the story, as we'll discuss further, Overstory also plays a crucial role in helping utilities prevent wildfires in high risk areas across North America, similar to extreme weather, wildfire frequency and intensity is also increasing, in part due to climate change expanding cities and many other factors. And when wildfires do happen, these stories are heartbreaking. What many people don't realize is that lots of wildfires are sparked by trees making contact with power lines, and that is why Overstory plays a key role in tagging areas where those fires are most likely to ignite and spread, making it easier for utilities to prioritize trimming work and vegetation management in those areas. To dive more into how Overstory is helping us here at Hydro Ottawa and. And other utilities helping us identify and act to mitigate risk associated with vegetation. I'm really excited to have Lynn Petesch on the show today. Lynn is Overstory's, Head of Customer Success, and has spent the past 10 years building customer facing teams with a specific focus on technologies that tackle the climate crisis. She began her career working for the United Nations and the diplomatic service of her home country, Luxembourg, before moving into the tech sector to really work in environments where she could drive impact more quickly and at greater scale. Lynn Petesch, welcome to the show.

Lynn Petesch 05:34

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Trevor Freeman 05:36

Okay, so let's start at the very top with a high level look at what Overstory does and how the organization came to be.

Lynn Petesch 05:45

Yeah, let me tell you about Overstory. I mean, we are a vegetation intelligence platform. We use remote sensing and AI to give electric utilities, including Hydro Ottawa and others, a clear, system wide view of their risk. They always do it because they want to address three things, or sometimes more, but kind of, there's always a few goal posts, and it's either improving reliability, reducing wildfire risk, if that is if they're in an area where there is a concern, and or improving operational efficiencies. So Overstory very much becomes a decision-making tool for their programs were used mostly by the vegetation management people, operations people, wildfire mitigation teams, and they each time they want to either use a program that exists, prioritize it, reshape their work. They might be preparing for storm. They might be working on a wildfire mitigation risk so the company, more broadly, was founded in 2018 by Anniek Schouten and Indra den Bakker. This was back in the Netherlands, and they were leveraging, or getting really interested in satellite imagery, and were very initially using it for deforestation purposes. So, the climate resilience DNA has always been with us. But like any startup, we were looking at that kind of target audience that was most interested in what we had to offer. And pretty quickly, we landed on the electric utilities. They had the most pressing need to use remote sensing at scale to solve very big problems, honestly. And so we pivoted into that space of electric utilities, and then in 2020 Fiona Spruill, who's our CEO right now, she joined us. She shaped the company into what it is today, and that is really around building safer and more reliable operations.

Trevor Freeman 07:33

That's great, and I want to dive into some of the details. Our listeners will know that we talk a lot about grid modernization here and talk a lot about better intelligence of what's happening on the grid in all aspects, and something we haven't really talked about, and I'm excited to talk to you about today is the sort of vegetation management side of it. So really excited to get into the details. But before we do that, I'm always really curious to understand, you know, the people behind the conversations. How did you get into this area of, you know, high tech vegetation management? I touched a little bit on your bio in the intro, but give us a sense of, you know, how did Lynn come to be in the space that you're in right now?

Lynn Petesch 08:12

Yeah, I wouldn't say I grew up thinking I was going to work in this space, but I love working in it now. So actually, right out of college, I went to work for the United Nations, but then in the last 15 years, I started working at high growth tech companies, startups, and I've always been focused on leading and building CS operations, which is basically the customer success teams. They're the ones that are in front of the customers, implementing these software programs, kind of working very closely with customer solving problems. And about four years ago, I decided that I did want to focus the rest of my career on solving the climate crisis more broadly. And I remember very clearly that I came across Overstory. And there was two things that really resonated with me. One was hearing that utility caused wildfires could be as thing of the past, like they are preventable. And the other thing was learning about this world where vegetation is the biggest cause of outages, which is, you know, I did not know before. And so I think, you know, having these very clear goals is very compelling to kind of work on something where it's so easy to understand what the big problems are. So I joined Overstory, and for the last couple of years, I've been building a team that gets really deeply embedded in these utilities, specifically with the vegetation management and the WiFi mitigation teams. And we work on their programs. We understand their programs, we help them reshape their programs. We roll out, obviously, the software element that is Overstory. It's been very fun and rewarding work

Trevor Freeman 09:40

That's great. And I really love, you know, talking to people from a variety of areas that they touch on climate change and the climate crisis. And I think there's a bunch of us who share that passion of wanting to do something. I spoke with a group of you know, recent grads about what is a green. In career. What is it? What does a career in climate change look like? And really it looks like whatever you want it to look like. There are so many aspects that touch on this. So kind of neat to hear how that was your passion, and then you figured out where it made sense for you to enter into the climate sphere. So that's great.

Lynn Petesch 10:15

Yeah, I guess when I was young, I thought you had to be a scientist to work on time, yeah. And I think now anyone can find an angle on how to contribute to it. And I think it needs everyone to help contribute.

Trevor Freeman 10:24

Yeah, any job can be a green job if you care about it and if you make it that okay. So let's get back to Overstory. Tell us a little bit about the evolution of the company. You talked about it kind of founding about seven years ago. Tell us how it's evolved and progressed over those seven years.

Lynn Petesch 10:41

Yeah, so when we started working with utilities, I think at that point, everyone was kind of assessing whether satellites could be kind of good use case for analyzing vegetation. We're now talking about 30 centimeter imagery. So the resolution of satellites has become incredible. You can really see branches. You can detect species of trees. You can see if they're healthy or not. So initially, that was kind of our m-o we really were the leading provider to find out, where are the trees, how close are they, in terms of proximity to your network, so to the conductor, which is the risk. You know, we're looking at the terrain. If you're looking in the mountains and in Colorado, you have very different terrain than maybe in Ottawa. So detecting tree species has been really interesting, detecting the health of trees, how that decline is furthering. A lot of utilities are experiencing a lot of tree decline die off right now. So that was how we started. And then we started working with the really big utilities. And you had to think about this problem at scale. Now, we might be scanning with satellites, hundreds, 10s of 1000s of miles at a time, and some of these utilities, they might have 1000s, if not 10s of 1000s, of trees that could pose a risk to their network. They might have had a really big, large weather event, a storm that knocked over some of their system. So at that point, it all becomes about that decisioning tool. Everything starts becoming a prioritization, and I think that's now where we're really leaning into is making not just surfacing the data, but making it very actionable. Utilities have a lot to deal with. They deal with very tight budgets, they deal with crew constraints. They might have an aging workforce, their regulatory pressure, they're really vulnerable to storms. Increasingly, there's a lot of wildfire exposure. So everything becomes a decision of, where should I focus my intention? Where can I get the biggest bang for my buck? What should I do? What should I not focus on? And that decisioning is where we really want to be a key player in.

Trevor Freeman 12:44

Absolutely. And looking forward, I know I'm kind of we're jumping the gun here. We haven't gotten into the details of what you do. But looking forward, what is your vision for, kind of the future of this space and how it's going to continue to evolve? Are you mature as a company yet, or as a sector, or is it still a lot of growth to happen?

Lynn Petesch 13:01

Yeah, I think vast majority utilities are now leveraging remote sensing. It could be lighter, it could be drones, it could be satellites. So that has become a pretty established tooling within the sector. I think what our vision really is, is providing utilities that shared resilience, first picture of risk. So you know, we imagine a world where you can, kind of like, see the emerging risks, and you can start becoming proactive. Being proactive in the space of vegetation management has been really challenging. You never know where the next tree is going to fall. And over the last couple of years, customers suddenly have access to this risk across their territory so that they can start being proactive about it. As a matter of fact, that was a key use case, also with the team at Hydro Ottawa, is to start launching these proactive programs. And I think when we think about it, we get very excited about the world in which anyone from the field crews to the vegetation managers to the operation folks to the execs, to the regulators, the community partners who think about the safety of their communities, the regulators all have that kind of shared view of risk. Just imagine, they all understand the same risk. They operate off the same sheet, and they make the same data driven decisions that could solve a lot of problems, because now the data is often scrambled across different people. Certain people have access to it and certain people don't.

Trevor Freeman 14:25

Great. Okay, so let's get into the specifics here. I want to actually talk about specifically what you what Overstory does. How do you find we've kind of talked about vegetation management, obviously, you're supportingHydro Ottawa and other utilities in our vegetation management programs. How do you find and tag high risk vegetation? What is high risk like? What do you actually do on a day to day basis?

Lynn Petesch 14:47

Yeah, that's the part that I deal with the most often. So excited to get into specifics. Implementing with Overstory is actually pretty easy. I mean, when we start working with a customer, we need to know where is your grid. So we need to understand where your power lines are. Planning. We need to understand the main configurations of them. How tall are the poles, etc, so we can really compute that whole focus of where the trees in relation to your power lines, to your conductors. That's all ultimately that we're focusing on. Increasingly, we're all seeing focusing on the ground. I'll be talking about that as well. We then task these satellites over your territory. We do that during the leaf on season, so that will be the summer, essentially. And then we run all these models. So we are first needing to understand, where are the trees, what is their height, what is their health? An unhealthy tree is much more likely to fall and cause damage to your power lines. We're looking at the fuels on the ground. We can help you determine what type of equipment you might need to attack certain types of vegetation. And we always compute it to that risk to the conductor. And we look at your right of ways. Now, I think the interesting part about your question is the what is high risk? And that is, can be very different across different utilities, and I think that's the maybe the unique part with Overstory is that we can configure it to your standards. So every utility has very unique components. If you're on the West Coast and you're concerned about wildfires, your tolerance to risk will be very different. And if you're on the East Coast, where you're mostly concerned about not causing too many outages, including that you might have specific trimming specifications. The crews running around with chainsaws, they know exactly how far out they need to trim, how much they can trim, and there's a bit of a risk tolerance thing. So we built very configurable risk frameworks for all of our utility partners, so high means one thing to hydro Ottawa means something different to a customer in California that is facing a very different type of risk.

Trevor Freeman 16:49

So you're out there assessing, essentially, just for the context of our listeners, you know, we've got power lines that run overhead. They run through residential neighborhoods, commercial areas, but also forested areas, treed areas where there's lots of vegetation near our equipment, your company really gets an understanding of the the interaction between the vegetation and our lines, and says, these ones are too close, or this is a tree that's, you know, not healthy, and could come in contact with your lines based on your analysis. So help us, like, let's paint that picture a little bit more detailed. How do utility companies take the information that you are coming up with, that your analysis is coming up with, and use that to run a vegetation management program more effectively? What does the utility do with that information?

Lynn Petesch 17:37

Yeah, so we always center it around four main use cases. One is optimizing a program that already exists. It's creating a targeted program for you. It's quantifying your work and risk reporting. And I'll dive into each and every one of them a little bit to illustrate a bit more what that could mean. So when we think about program optimization, a lot of utilities, they have existing vegetation management cycle. They might have a regulatory obligation to visit their territory every four years, for example. Now, a lot of times they've been doing their program the same way for the last 10 maybe 20 years, but the conditions in their territory are different, right? I mean, the things we're seeing, the storms are heavier. There's more tree decline that we're seeing right now. So they know they need to adapt and they need to adjust it. But it's big programs with lots of budgets attached to it, a lot of crews running around. So starting to think about how you can start pulling a socket that you're meant to trim forward, or starting to tackle an area where you say, is more residential, there's fewer trees, focusing on your high risk areas. First re managing these programs is one key component that we work with a lot of companies on. And thinking about Oklahoma, Gas and Electric, for example, that they have a budget, and they can only do that much with the budget, and it was really about reinventing where they can get the biggest impact. The other one, the second use case, is this targeted program creation, and I'll use the Hydro Ottawa use case for that. You know, they had suddenly a view about where are all of their hazard trees? Hazard trees are these trees that are declining, they're dying, or they're dead, and they could have an impact on your system. Now, suddenly you know where they are, so you can start building a targeted program about dedicating some time and budget and crews to actually going and addressing those trees that has a big impact on your reliability and on reducing tree cost outages. And there's many others, sort of like hotspotting, is a very common term about starting to become proactive and doing something for a specific program. And the third one is work quantification. And I think there, when you think about it again, there's large contractors that are running around, managing your territory. And now we utilities, for the first time, often have that data to actually assess how much work there is. So that's really helpful in terms of negotiating your contracts, getting better bids. Some utilities say it's really hard to find contractors that want to work on their system, because it's very hard to estimate how much work there is, or they might have a budget to mow certain vegetation along a transmission corridor. Just knowing how much vegetation there is is a really helpful tool to address it and prioritize it in the right way. And then the fourth use case is the risk reporting, and that is about getting that baseline view about your risk and tracking it year over year. And this is really where we want utilities to have that data to report it out to their boards, insurers, regulators, and often it's used to defend your budgets, secure your budgets, or really have some data to kind of back you up on what the problems are that you're facing.

Trevor Freeman 21:05

Great. So you talk about data, and you know, each of those use cases that you mentioned, or strategies that you mentioned really are about getting the right information in the hands of the right people to make decisions and sort of more efficiently and effectively make decisions, but it's a lot of data. And so Hydro Ottawa has over 6000 kilometers of lines. You know, this, of course, as our partner, we have a big territory, and we have a fairly treed territory. That's a lot of data points. You're collecting a lot of data from your satellites. You're doing analysis on that. How are you doing that analysis? Is it, you know, AI is kind of a buzzword, and every sector right now, and the utility sector is no different. Are you using some form of AI or machine learning analytics? What are you doing in terms of, you know, crunching the numbers and coming up with the right actions?

Lynn Petesch 21:59

Totally, yeah, AI is a buzzword, but it's also very exciting. I think utilities have really embraced it already. They're using it for demand forecasting. They're using it for customer service. They're using it for asset planning. I mean, at the core, Overstory has been using AI to turn remote sensing data into operationally useful intelligent about their vegetation. So when you say yes, Hydro Ottawa has that many 1000s of kilometers of overhead lines, we need to a rank it to them. This is your worst circuit. This is your worst area. This is the area where you have the most hazard trees, for example. So we can really rank order on a span level, from the worst to the best, right? So that could be one thing, it's still an overwhelming amount of data. So where we started by using AI to kind of predict that whereas the trees How tall are, they were and they were relation to the conductors. Now what we're really excited about, or kind of leaning into, with AI, is how to intelligently, kind of assess and prioritize risk. So not every hazard tree has the same impact. If a hazard tree falls on a line where more houses are dependent on you will knock out the power of more people. So it's always a prioritization exercise, and leveraging AI for that is what is most exciting to us right now. And I think it's important to note that we also don't just want it to be a black box. All of the models we've built, they're always validated by certified arborists and kind of our utility partners. And I think at this stage, this is very important, because every tree that we find exists in the real world, and so validating this, AI in the with ground truthing, has been really important for us to also build that trust in the technology.

Trevor Freeman 23:42

That's great. And I do think it's helpful for our listeners to kind of understand the context before this, this work is sort of done, you know, in the absence of a tool like yours, it's, it's sort of done. You know, there's a degree of manual effort here. There's a degree of patrolling the lines. There's a cycle of vegetation management. So if you've done a line this year in three years or four years or five years, you want to be looking at it again. This takes a little bit of that, I don't want to call it guesswork, but it takes a little bit of that manual effort out of the equation, and really focuses efforts in the right way. And it's only with the tools that you know you folks are using that you're able to do that volume of analysis and get that pinpoint accuracy. So that's fantastic. Let's, let's get into kind of the success of it at all, like the big picture. We've obviously talked a couple times here that you're our partner here at Hydro Ottawa, so I know that the success that we're having with you, but you know, tell us some of the great success stories with other utility partners. Are you, you know, are you actually reducing weather related outages? Are you seeing the impact of using the overstory tools and methodology to support utility partners?

Lynn Petesch 24:58

Yeah, I mean weather related outages can mean many things. You have trees knocking over, like the pole might crack, etc, you know, those there's a lot of things that can happen during a storm. And I've heard a lot of stories about side of some of the storms that Ottawa has experienced in the past years, where, you know, you could have had anything, and they're just heavier, and that the consequences are really strong, but what we can impact is the tree cost outages, right? And that we've proven with Hydro Ottawa, where, within a year, by focusing that targeted program on going to an area where you had a massive amounts of these trees that were dying off and they at any point, was just a little bit too heavy wind could be toppled over and fall on the line, we had a 44% reduction in tree cost outages. That's a real, tangible number. You can see, I'm thinking about utility as well. In the on the East Coast, a co op that runs through very rural areas. In those areas, you have a trees outside of the right of way that are toppling over on two lines. So tree cost outages are a huge issue for them, and it's really impacting their safety and safety those key, key KPIs that utilities are always tracking and by us just giving them a rank order of which has a tree they had so many of them, which has a tree to even go to first, because if that has a tree were to fall on a line, a ton more people are going to be out of power than if the other one were to fall the line, you will have, like one rural cabin that will not have power. And that led to a reduction of something around 90% of tree cause outages is to 70% it's still a long way to go, but it was a really tangible number that you can see, and it shows that if you then do that proactive work, you have real impact on your tree cost outages. And it's if I think about our customer in California, Pacific Gas and Electric, for example, it's a lot around helping them understand where they don't need to go. So it's kind of doing something of a visual inspection and actually skipping certain spans, that can be itself a really big use case. Because right now, if you don't have an understanding about where your risks are, you might be spending trucks to roll for hours around areas where there is not really any tangible work to be done. So redirecting them to the right areas is where we've seen a lot of success there, and that obviously leads to budget wins, right? You'll be saving a lot of money by doing that. And those are kind of the use cases that we chase and that we kind of help prove the cases on.

Trevor Freeman 27:29

Absolutely, yeah, there's, there's only so many resources you can you can throw at this, and making sure that we prioritize and focus those resources in the right spot is absolutely critical. You were just talking about the West Coast, and you mentioned this earlier. I know wildfires is is an area that is obviously of great interest for your organization. We're fortunate here at Hydro Ottawa, and that we haven't really had to deal with that much. But anybody who's you know following the news knows this is a major problem for us. So how, what is your role in helping those utilities prevent wildfires? Maybe give us, like, a very quick primer on why utilities are a factor when it comes to wildfires first, and then how your organization is supporting that.

Lynn Petesch 28:13

So unfortunately, utility cost wildfires tend to be the most catastrophic wildfires because they're critical infrastructure, and we've obviously seen that happen across the world, in in the US recently, again and again. But utility cost wildfires, as I said at the beginning, are also the actual wildfires that are preventable. So that's really where we're lying to lying into a lot of the forests right now. They've become Tinder boxes. That is obviously because of fire suppression policies? That's because of forest management techniques that have been leveraged in the last couple of 100 years that are slowly changing at different paces? Canada's had some, unfortunately, some really bad fire seasons recently as well. And so where overstory wanted to place itself as a net prevention space to even not add to the point where you have a spark, because there's a lot of tools out there that focus on mitigation and what is, what do you do when you see that first plume of smoke coming up? And so we've landed in kind of really focusing on the prevention side, so that utilities are hopefully in the future, not the ones that spark any of those catastrophic wildfires we've already always been looking at that the vegetation that could touch your conductor, right? That's I've been speaking about that a lot, but now we're really excited for the first time, and we recently announced that we launched a fuel detection model. So that's us looking at the ground fuel conditions, and those are actually usually the key contributors to the spark that spreads the fire. We're now providing that to utilities as a much higher resolution than ever before. For me, it's interesting because I've spent a lot of time looking at trees, and now I'm going into the field and I'm looking at the ground, and it's a new perspective. But yet again, we could just, you know, we don't want to overwhelm our customers. A lot of maps and showing the fuel conditions, necessarily, we can really help them identify those spans where a single failure would have the greatest consequence. So yet again, it's about how to make that data that, you know, there's a lot of wildfire risk map out there, but make it a very actionable list of spans that if they were to tackle those they are very proactively reducing the risk of igniting a fire. And as a result of the protecting their communities.

Trevor Freeman 30:29

Got you so it's not just about the overhead trees, branches, etc, contacting the line. It's, you know, if a switch goes, if an insulator pops, if, if something happens that will cause sparks. What's happening on the ground below that line, and how do we make sure it is able to withstand sparks? That might happen.

Lynn Petesch 30:49

Exactly if you have dry grasses, if you have sagebrush, if you have certain types of fuels, they're just much more likely to spark a fire and then spread, spread out without there even be any any trees you have these prairies along Texas that can blow up in a fire very quickly, and the fires can spread to tremendous sizes. And so understanding the fuels on the ground is really important.

Trevor Freeman 31:15

Super interesting and fascinating work to get involved in. As you mentioned, this is obviously an area of, I don't even know if I call it growing concern anymore, great concern for for the utility industry and all of us. Yeah. So with the technology that's, you know, we talked about AI a little bit ago, it's literally growing before our eyes. It's really evolving fast. Do you see your technology evolving along with it. What's what's kind of next for your organization? You talked about getting into sort of the ground vegetation management. What comes next? How do you see it evolving as AI and tools evolve?

Lynn Petesch 31:52

Yeah, I mean, if we see that the future is where we want to support a grid that is much safer and reliable, as I mentioned, we also want to make it sure it's resilient to the climate and the economic pressures that there are. So our initial focus and our continued focus, and where we have a lot of our expertise has been with vegetation. Now we're starting to look at the ground fuels, then that naturally evolves into looking at the asset vulnerabilities. So you know, the actual polls, and if there's any failures potentially on those as well as further weather exposures, right? It becomes, then about the soil moisture. It comes about the wind speed. It becomes around the rain, precipitation, etc. So there's a myriad of things that we can start looking at and that we want to start looking at in order to get that more holistic view of risk, and go beyond just vegetation right now, where we're investing most heavily in is that wildfire risk. There's also the resolution that we see with satellites right now is at 30 centimeter that may drop down to 15 or 10 centimeters, so the resolution will get higher. There's other sources that we're exploring already flying, sometimes aerial imagery that is at that five to 15 centimeters, then you would really start seeing soon, you can start seeing a leaf on a on a tree. It gets really impressive. There's lighter there's lots of other kind of remote sensing technologies that we're looking to leverage in the future. And then, as a company as well, we're starting to, obviously expand internationally. We started working with utilities in New Zealand that have very similar problems and various regulatory changes. They also have a problem with wildfire risks. So that is, that is another angle that at Overstorey We're chasing right now.

Trevor Freeman 33:35

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that. You know, understanding of other assets beyond just vegetation, has kind of been running through my head of we talk about, and I think we've talked about it here on the show. If we haven't, I should do an episode on that, like a digital twin, a digital twin of our grid, and really having a good understanding of not just, you know, a line drawn on a map of, Hey, your circuits run this way, but really physically, what's happening out there, and being able to sort of model that interact with it in a digital way, to understand, if we do X, Y and Z, what happens. So the technology that you guys are using to really get good imagery and understanding of what's out there, well, I think what I'm hearing from you is could potentially be leveraged in that next level to understand, what pulls do we have? What health are they in? What you know, what's happening with that conductor? Is it sagging too much? Is it in good health? Like there's, there's all this opportunity that's really fascinating to hear.

Lynn Petesch 34:31

Yeah, already. Now, when we look at transmission corridors, we look at the sag of these lines, and the terrains are also really challenging, something to look at. So there's a lot of factors that need to be taken into account. And that can only expand as we want to look at risk more beyond just the vegetation element.

Trevor Freeman 34:48

Very cool. Well, Lynn, very interesting to hear this. I'm really glad you came on the episode or the show today to talk to us. Fascinating to hear what Overstory have to I know that we're super excited to be. Working with you here at Hydro Ottawa and excited for what comes next. We always end our interviews with a series of questions, so I'm going to dive into those and here we go. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

Lynn Petesch 35:13

I was thinking about an author more than a book. My favorite author is Jonathan Franzen. If I would recommend one book, it'd probably be Corrections, his most famous one, I believe. But they're like, these chunky, 800-900 page books where you kind of get immersed in these families and you feel like you know them at the end, and they kind of, I think about them for like, months afterwards. They're really good reading, at least for the winter when it's cold and you spend a lot of time inside. So probably Jonathan Franzen books, yeah.

Trevor Freeman 35:41

Yeah, we're we're recording this just before the holidays, and I think we'll be releasing the episode after but winter is such a great time to curl up with a book, and it's awesome to have a good recommendation of a nice thing.

Lynn Petesch 35:53

It'll be called in January.

Trevor Freeman 35:56

Absolutely. So same question, but a movie or a show?

Lynn Petesch 36:00

Yeah, I'm not a big movie buff, but I recently rewatched What's Eating Gilbert Grape, seen it with Johnny Depp and Leonardo DiCaprio, and I always felt like Leonardo DiCaprio should have received an Oscar for that performance back when he was 14. But, yeah, it's a beautiful movie. awesome.

Trevor Freeman 36:20

Awesome yeah, that's a bit of a blast from the past, but you're right. That is a fantastic one. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would go?

Lynn Petesch 36:27

French Polynesia, because it's so far I've never been a friend who went. I'm sure it's very expensive to go there, so it'd be great for someone too. Yeah, no, that's a place I'll go one day.

Trevor Freeman 36:41

So, yeah, fantastic. Who is someone that you admire?

Lynn Petesch 36:45

Yeah, that's a it's a tricky one, because I was thinking about, like, people, you know, in, I know, family, etc. But like, if I were to think about a, and it's a little left field, about a public persona, and also a bit of a blast from the past, I'll think about Tina Turner. She's been my icon since I'm a kid, I was always listening with my dad to Tina Turner. And I think the word that I've probably most used in today's episode was like resilience. And I always think about her as like possibly the most resilient woman in the world who reinvented herself and her career in her 40s and 50s, and is this complete power woman, you know, always done everything at her own terms. So get so much energy from not just her music. I've seen so many documentaries about her, and she's always been this kind of woman that I know, filthy with energy and kind of like drive. So I'm a big, big fan of Tina Turner.

Trevor Freeman 37:38

That's fantastic. I have to say, that's never come up on the show before, and now I need to go and dive down a rabbit hole of like, learning about Tina Turner listening to some music.

Lynn Petesch 37:47

Yeah, she's great woman.

Trevor Freeman 37:48

Yeah, good answer. Last question, what's something about the energy sector, or let's expand that to kind of the climate sector that you're really excited about?

Lynn Petesch 37:59

Yeah, I'm gonna take a very high level. But I think the thing I've always been following the most is, like, that broad topic of the energy transition, and I think the recent changes, or like, kind of the way we talk about it, has become a lot more interesting, because it used to be this kind of fluffy, big kind of vision, and now we're in that phase where it just has to be very practically implemented, and we're trudging along with it, no matter the political climate, etc, there is kind of a move forward. And I actually really liked the way that, I think, when I first started learning about it, or getting interested in it, it was always about renewables, and now it's around just sort of like needing to build a system that is both, like low carbon and climate resilient. And there's something in that, like way we talk about it now that I find really interesting. There's immense amounts of innovation in it. So yeah, I'm just enjoying following what's happening on that and how we are. We're moving that direction, no matter what's happening right now. So that's exciting.

Trevor Freeman 38:55

Yeah, okay, when I know my listeners are probably roll their eyes, because I say this all the time, but it's a very exciting time to be in this industry, and very exciting to kind of see the evolution of energy and how we're interacting with it, how it's impacting our society. And we really feels like we're at an inflection point. And very great to have you working on one aspect of it that people probably don't think about a lot. So thanks very much for what you're doing.

Lynn Petesch 39:19

Yeah, exactly. When you start working for Overstory, the one thing that happens is, wherever you go, you see trees and power lines. And I have very keen eye for, unfortunately, trees that are in poor health right now. So that's one of the professional things I've developed.

Trevor Freeman 39:35

Carry like a spool of red ribbon around you can, like, tie on the at risk trees and just so someone could come along. Lynn, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Really appreciate it. It's been great chatting with you.

Lynn Petesch 39:45

Thank you so much.

Trevor Freeman 39:46

Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear. From you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com..

View Details

It's a new year, so we're unpacking what 2026 could bring for Canada's energy sector. Host Trevor looks back at 2025, from shifting federal policy to rapid AI adoption. Then he scans the horizon: faster major project approvals, an east–west grid push, and new hydro and small modular reactor investments in Ontario. He also touches on AI-powered DER programs, battery storage, and wider support for industrial decarbonization. Plus a quick note on the podcast's new pace.

Related links

● Independent Electricity Systems Operator (IESO): https://www.ieso.ca/

● Save on Energy program: https://www.saveonenergy.ca/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa

Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Welcome to a thinkenergy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back and Happy New Year. Welcome to 2026 this is the first think energy podcast episode of this new year. Happy to be here with you. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman. So last year, we started off 2025 with a little bit of a look forward at some of the energy stories we might see throughout the year. And I think this goes without saying, 2025 was a pretty eventful year when it comes to energy and politics and all things associated with that certainly had lots of twists and turns, more than any of us expected. But I kind of think that's just the new normal in all things this during this time of history, but certainly when it comes to energy as well, I think we should just expect every year to be unexpected, lots of twists and turns. So I think the best way to start this one is to look back at some of the things we said we were keeping our eye on at the beginning of last year and see how they turned out, and see whether or not our predictions or guesses were correct and kind of what happened throughout the year. So just for a little bit of context, when we recorded this episode last year, Justin Trudeau, Canada's Prime Minister at the time, had just resigned the leadership of the party and as prime minister. So we knew that a new leader was coming for the Liberal Party, and likely a federal election was on the horizon. And at the time, the Conservative Party in Canada was much more popular with voters according to polls, and it looked very much like there would be a new government, a new federal government, but that is not what happened. And I'm sure Canadians will know that is not what happened. So after Justin Trudeau resigned, the liberals climbed in the polls. They chose Mark Carney to lead them, and not long after they won the election. Now in the episode last year, I had said that should the Liberals stay in power, which seemed like a long shot at the time, but should the Liberals stay in power? We knew what their energy policy was. They would keep the carbon the price on carbon. They would invest, continue to invest, in clean energy infrastructure and continue working towards their net zero goals. They had been working on that that was kind of a main pillar of the liberal party's approach to governing, and that felt like a safe bet. But even that did not come to pass. On his first day in office, Mark Carney canceled the price on carbon, and soon after that, he paused the previous government's EV target, or target to achieve certain sales on electric vehicles, and just recently, he has signed an MOU to work with Alberta on a new bitumen pipeline. So that is a little bit different than what we expected, should a Liberal government continue? So why is all this happening? Well, this, this isn't a politics podcast, so we're not going to get into all the specifics, but plainly stated, the government is saying they want to position Canada as a leader, both in clean energy, but also economically. And there are some economic pressures that the government is under, and this is what they are saying that is the best way to move forward in that so we'll get to some of the outlook on the new government, or not so new anymore government, but the current government shortly. But let's have a look at some of the other things that we said might happen for 2025 last year, we noted that utility companies would likely continue to use AI to streamline their processes and monitor infrastructure and just really take more advantage of AI. Personally, I can say that AI has moved forward in ways that we couldn't even predict last year, at least that, you know I couldn't predict last year. I'm sure there's folks out there who totally saw where this saw where this was going, but AI really is taking off in our personal lives, certainly in the workspace and definitely in the utility space as well. So we saw some of that come true, but we also see that AI is capable of way more than that in the energy sector, like all sectors of the economy and all areas of society are really looking at new ways to use AI and figure out what's the best way to integrate this into our business. How do we take this from pilot projects to, you know, actual core parts of our business? So that's continuing for sure. We also said that electricity companies or utility companies would continue to invest in. Grid modernization, and that certainly is happening. In August of 2025 the federal government announced a plan to spend over $13 million to update Ontario's power grid, with five major projects on the horizon, which is a huge investment, and investment of this size is really intended to make the system more reliable and help manage projected electricity demand. And you know the other thing, and I'm sure I've talked about this before on other episodes, so you'll be aware that hydro Ottawa is still in the in the process of getting approval for our next five-year plan, which has big investment in reliability and modernization and supporting continued electrification. And of course, we talked a little bit about the trade conflicts with the US, and you know how Canada is responding to that. And certainly, that was a major piece of 2025 it really formed a lot of the policy, or influenced a lot of the policy of both our federal government as well as provincial government when it comes to energy projects, it's increasing that look kind of east to west, rather than north to south. So making sure that we have good interprovincial energy cooperation and collaboration. And certainly, we've saw some progress on that throughout 2025 so on the sort of provincial side of politics, again, I'm in Ontario here, so we had suggested that we would likely see a provincial election in 2025 and certainly that's exactly what happened. The Ontario Conservative Party won another mandate, and part of their approach since they've come back into power, or one that new mandate is to look to expand clean energy, look to expand our nuclear fleet in particular. And we'll talk a little bit more about this in a little bit. So that's kind of a summary of the 2025 outlook that we did a year ago. Now let's get into what might we see moving forward in 2026 and again, you know, just the caveat here, this isn't a politics podcast. This is strictly about energy. So going to try not to weigh in on one side or the other of some of these issues, just highlighting what we might see moving forward. So, first off, major projects. So in 2025, this sort of newly elected Prime Minister of Canada, Mark Carney, founded the major projects office. This department looks to streamline the approval process for what they consider nation building projects. You know, trying to help take the approval process for those projects to be like a two-year decision rather than a five year decision under that kind of previous process that it went through. On the website for this the Liberal Party states that they open the major projects office in part to build clean energy infrastructure quickly, and of the 11 nation building projects that they've announced so far, they are categorizing eight of those 11 as clean economy projects. On top of these, Mark Kearney reiterated his commitment to building an East West electricity grid, which would link those our provinces together and help, like I said earlier, help that flow of electricity east to west, you know, between provinces improve, rather than, you know, right now, we have a lot of great north south connections between us and the United States. So the intent is that these projects will really position Canada as a leader in clean energy, help us achieve our own carbon reduction and net zero goals and ensure that we can manage growing demand for electricity. So we're in very early days of those projects yet, and what I'm highlighting here is that we expect to see a lot more information about those projects, about how they're going to proceed, timelines, etc, during the course of this year, and likely even see some new ones get added to that to that current list. So speaking of major projects, our next item that we're keeping an eye on is the Alberta to BC pipeline. This definitely has been a big news item in the latter part of 2025 and as we move into 2026 we expect to see a lot more about it and hear a lot more about it. So near the end of 2025 the federal government smart Carney signed an agreement with Alberta's Premier. Alberta's government, led by Danielle Smith, and this agreement acknowledges the plan to collaborate on and expedite the approval process for a new pipeline, which will transport oil from Alberta to the coast of BC. And the federal government is calling this a nation building project, and it would streamline the review process for this pipeline. So really make it a lot easier to get through the various hurdles in order to actually be built. And sort of initial timelines are saying Construction is expected to start in 2029 So still a few years out. But this pipeline was controversial before the agreement was signed. So this pipe. China has been on the books, or, you know, in the plans for a while, and it was controversial to start with, and this agreement has, you know, only made it more so it was really skyrocketed this project into the public's eye, and there's a lot of controversy around it. Once the announcement went public, Liberal MP, Stephen Gilbeau resigned from the Prime Minister's cabinet citing the government's decision to walk back their climate commitments. So this is definitely controversial, mainly because a new pipeline will increase fossil fuel production by, you know, at least a million barrels per day is sort of the current estimate, which is counter to Canada's stated target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and achieving net zero emissions by 2050. In addition, BC's Premier, David Eby, also opposes the project, arguing that the federal government moved ahead without meaningfully considering BCS concerns British Columbia's concerns, particularly around environmental risk and the spill response on BC's sensitive coastline and on their marine ecosystem, which would be put at risk by adding another pipeline in the area that they're talking about. In addition to that, many indigenous people in BC and elsewhere stand against the pipeline, and the government is still looking for indigenous stakeholders as part of this project. Now, Mark Carney and Danielle Smith both say they want Canada to reach its net zero target by 2050 but even after the deal was signed, Alberta announced some changes to its industrial carbon pricing mechanism that, you know, in a sense, weakened that tool, which a lot of people are kind of pointing at to say, clearly, climate targets are not a key driver in consideration in this. And so this there's a weakening of the climate tools that we do have in place is not a great sign, and we'll leave it at that. So there's a few caveats to this deal. First, the pipeline is only supposed to move forward if there's real progress on carbon capture. In other words, the pipeline and large-scale climate capture are kind of being treated as a package. So in theory, you shouldn't get one without the other. But carbon capture is yet to be implemented at scale. It's not clear that it's actually a viable solution, something that can actually have a meaningful impact at that scale. So it remains to be seen whether or not that that can actually happen second. And this is a big one, the pipeline needs a private sector partner to actually build it, and nobody stepped up for that yet. So it's important to know that this agreement between the federal government and the Provincial Government of Alberta is just to help streamline the process. Should a private sector partner come along to actually build this, the federal government's not saying they're going to fund it and build it, which is sort of contrasts with how the previous Liberal government traded a pipeline many years back. But we won't get into that here. So all that to say, don't expect any actual movement or shovels in the ground on this one anytime soon. And certainly, as this progresses, there will be lots of legal challenges, and sort of you know, there are, there are people on both sides of this, but we will hear a lot more about this in 2026 it's going to be a big news story. Things are going to happen, and we'll hear both from proponents of the pipeline as well as opposition to the pipeline throughout this year, it will definitely be a big energy story here in Canada and even beyond that, Okay, next up investments in Ontario, so let's look a little bit closer to at least home. For me, on a greener note, Ontario will expand its clean energy sector in 2026 the government has announced several new partnerships with indigenous groups, including two large scale hydroelectric dams in northern Ontario. We talked a little bit about that in a previous episode, and they've also committed $4.7 billion to refurbish and update existing hydroelectric facilities to make sure that they can continue to provide clean electricity well into the future. So some of these new stations, there's the Nine Mile rapids project and the Grand Rapids project. They are coming online, you know, at a time when we really do need additional capacity on our grid. So ISO, as I've talked about many times, ISO is predicting that by 2050 we'll see a 75% increase overall in the province. But specifically in northern Ontario, demand for electricity will increase by over 80% and to meet that demand, there's, you know, this is an all tools in the toolbox. Kind of approach here, in addition to all the other great things that are happening, distributed energy resources, energy efficiency, etc, we also do need more infrastructure, more generation. The government also wants to expand Ontario's nuclear fleet. This is a government that's very keen on using nuclear. Energy and expansion of our existing nuclear assets as an important tool to provide emissions free electricity. One big step that they've taken towards this goal is investing $3 billion into four small modular reactors, which will produce, you know, 1200 approximately 1200 megawatts of energy, which is a lot that's enough to power over a million homes. Construction on these started in 2025 but the reactors aren't expected to come online until 2030 but the important point is that the government is very keen, as I said, on nuclear energy, looking to expand our emissions free electricity in order to meet our growing electricity demand, but to do so in a way that still tries to approach our climate targets and make sure that we're providing emissions free energy. Okay, next step is AI we talked about this last year, and it's well, it'll be a topic of conversation for many, many years to come. So AI and electrification, lots more in store. This year, it'll be a key investment area for energy companies. Moving forward, for sure, we'll see utilities continue to use it to build smart grids, for example, to analyze the flow of electricity on their grids in real time. And hydro Ottawa is no different. We're a part of that as well. So just in the last few weeks here, at the very end of 2025 in December, the federal government announced a $6 million investment into hydro Ottawa's der accelerator program. And part of that program looks to utilize AI to help us analyze electricity demand manage it. So this program really looks to partner with customers in specific areas, areas of constraint, to leverage their own devices. So customer owned devices like smart thermostats, battery storage systems in order to help us manage electricity demand. And we'll use AI as a function of that, or as a tool to help us do that to really forecast when we need to take action and what action we can take. But AI goes well beyond that. So electrification is going to grow. Overall, electricity demand is going to grow. We're going to see more utilities looking for solutions like large scale battery storage systems in order to tackle that demand. These systems, the storage will help relieve the grid from additional stress and better utilize the infrastructure that we do have in place. So lots more to come on, the sort of next gen of technology when it comes to AI and grid mod and how we're going to use those to help manage this growing electricity demand that we're seeing Next up, and our last kind of main topic is decarbonization. So that's not anything new. Obviously, if you're listening to this podcast, you'll know that we talk about this all the time, and it's one of the main drivers of what's happening in the energy industry right now. But decarbonization continues. It's not a constant flow of progress in the same direction. There's sort of ebbs and flows, if you will. We saw lots of change on the decarbonization front in the last year, but it continues to be something that organizations need to figure out. We know that we need to decarbonize as a society. Our different sectors of the economy all need to figure out how they're going to decarbonize, and the stakeholders of that really need to figure out what their role is. So the ieso, as one of those stakeholders, has also been focusing on their own decarbonization support, but mainly Their support has been focused on transportation and building heating. But we expect there to be, you know, a bit of a broadening of that look from the ISO in 2026 looking at other sectors like mining, paper, steel, you know, cement production, refining, chemicals, etc, the list goes on. So really look to see potentially more support for others, other areas of the economy, and how they will achieve decarbonization with, you know, could be industry specific programs or initiatives. We should probably see more of that in the coming year. But that's not to diminish from the existing programs that are already in place, and we'll see more leverage of, for example, of the ISOs existing save on energy incentive programming which helps existing commercial businesses, industrial businesses, residential customers, really target energy efficiency, energy reduction in the in the decarbonization in their own lives or workplaces. So there will be continued leverage of that. Utilities will continue to promote that. So expect to see that be a big piece of 2026 so that's the areas that we've that we've identified in 2026 it'll be interesting to look back a year from now to see you know what happened? Was it in line with what we said here? What came out of the blue that we totally didn't expect? Or what was a bigger deal than. Maybe we thought it would be but really look forward to this year. We've got lots of great conversations planned with some fantastic guests, and really looking forward to exploring some of these topics. Certainly, looking for you guys to connect with us and interact with us. Send us a note, find us on social media. Think energy at hydro ottawa.com is our email address always looking for guest recommendations, topic recommendations, questions, feedback. I'd certainly love to hear from you. You might know it's a little bit of a change in how we do things in 2026 we're certainly committed to continuing to bring you great content and great guests, but we might be shifting to maybe more of a monthly format, so really focusing on bringing those experts on, giving us the time and the space to plan those episodes, to coordinate with the guests and bring you great content. So we'll be looking at one episode a month moving forward, but always happy to hear from you. So if you have thoughts on that format or again topics, guests certainly reach out. Okay, so that wraps up our first episode of the year. Like I said, really looking forward to getting into all the great content this year with you guys. Thanks for tuning in. Happy New Year, and we'll chat with you again soon. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. To spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

View Details

In Part 2 of the Holiday Rewind, Trevor revisits five standout episodes from thinkenergy in 2025. The conversations focus on renewable energy, from Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) and building decarbonization to energy storage, district energy, and the policy forces shaping it all. This episode reflects on how renewables are becoming personal, scalable, and central to Canada's smart energy future. Listen in for a thoughtful look at the momentum we've built and the progress we made.

Related links

• Episode 163 (How Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) are reshaping the grid): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/thinkenergy-shorts-how-distributed-energy-resources-ders-are-reshaping-the-grid/
• Episode 150 (Decarbonizing Canada's buildings with the Building Decarbonization Alliance): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-canadas-buildings-with-the-building-decarbonization-alliance/
• Episode 152 (Capturing lightning in a bottle with Energy Storage Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/capturing-lightning-in-a-bottle-with-energy-storage-canada/
• Episode 154 (Reimagining heating and cooling with district energy systems): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/reimagining-heating-and-cooling-with-district-energy-systems/
• Episode 149 (Looking ahead at 2025 clean energy trends): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/looking-ahead-at-2025-clean-energy-trends/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa

Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone and welcome back. Welcome to the second of our special year end holiday rewind episodes that we do here on the think energy podcast, I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, in our last episode, we looked at five conversations or snippets of conversations that we thought, you know, helped shape the way we think about the grid, everything from politics to grid modernization to large scale investments, what Hydro Ottawa in particular is proposing to invest in our grid, but Today is all about the fuel that powers our clean energy future. And I don't mean all the candy and gingerbread and all the sugar that we're going to eat over the next little while, although those help too. I'm talking about renewable energy, solar, District Energy Systems, how we're using distributed technologies to really transform the way we generate and manage and use power here in Canada. Think of this episode as a bit of a, you know, warm fireside reflection on the progress that we've made, the momentum we're carrying into the year ahead. But also keep in mind how far we have to go. We've got more work to do, and 2026 needs to be another year of focusing on that. But today we're going to revisit portions of, you know, five conversations from 2025 that really show how renewable energy isn't just a trend, it's an accelerating shift that's reshaping our homes and our businesses, our communities and even the grid itself. So let's jump right in with our first clip. So today we're going to start with a clip that's close to my heart, because I talk about distributed energy resources all the time, and you guys hear me talk about that all the time with guests and in some of the solo episodes that I do, it's one of the clearest signs that renewable energy is moving from kind of the fringes of the grid, the very large centralized systems to really write on our own rooftops and backyards and on our businesses, DERs represent really that bottom up renewable revolution. So rooftop solar, home batteries, smart EV chargers and more, these are becoming technologies that our friends and neighbors and us, even the listeners of this podcast, have and are using to add real clean energy to the grid and using it in smarter ways. So here's a moment from my distributed energy resources episode that looks at how DERs are becoming those practical tools for resilience, for decarbonization and just for everyday energy use. So let's dive into what some of the reasons are why someone would want a der there's a couple of different reasons. The first is for backup during an outage. So using solar panels, especially if paired with a battery, can give you some backup if there's an outage from the grid, whether that's a storm or an accident or something like that, that backup power can be focused on your key devices or systems or appliances, or if your storage is big enough, or your system is big enough, it may be used to power your whole home for a period of time. Of course, if you're using one of those non renewable sources that I mentioned, like a fossil fuel power generator, for example, then your backup supply can last longer, really, as long as you've got fuel. But it's not clean, so you will be producing carbon emissions. One emerging technology that we'll likely see more of in the future is using an electric vehicle for this purpose. So while there's only a few different models that allow this right now, the Ford F150 is one of them, and there are some safety and regulatory considerations before you go ahead and do this, we can expect to see more of this in the future as the technology advances and it becomes a bit more widespread. Another reason for DERs is financial. Installing a der can actually help you save money every month, whether that's just by reducing what you consume from the grid, or by pushing back unused generation to the grid for credits, and I'll touch on this a little bit more shortly. Finally, if we're talking about those renewable DERs, they produce clean energy. So that's carbon free emissions, free energy. And if you are concerned about your carbon footprint, you're trying to decarbonize and reduce the amount of emissions that you cause. Renewable DERs are a great way to do that. You can lower your carbon footprint by reducing how much you draw from the electricity grid and any carbon emissions that are associated with that. You know what I love about this is just how simple. Empowering. It truly is. Renewable energy isn't industrial scale anymore. You know, everybody can at least envision themselves playing a part in the renewable transition. There's incentives out there to support putting renewables in the business case. Is starting to make sense for homes, for businesses, it's becoming local. And as these DERs grow, they don't just decarbonize homes, they also strengthen resiliency, and, you know, support the other drivers that people have for their energy, having more control over it, having resiliency and backup during outages, etc. And this theme of people having more agency and control over their energy really ties into the next clip that we're going to show as well. We're revisiting again we played this on the last holiday rewind, but we're revisiting our conversation with the Building Decarb Alliance about buildings. Buildings are one of Canada's largest sources of emissions. They're also one of the biggest opportunities for renewable driven change. So in this conversation with Brian Flanagan, we talk about how renewable energy and electrification, so from heat pumps to solar grid integrated building systems, how these things are reshaping the way we heat and cool and power the places that we live and work. And in this clip, I really think it captures the scale of the challenge and the optimism of the transition. You really can't overstate the importance of buildings in our lives. We eat, sleep, work, learn and socialize in buildings, among many, many other things, a huge percentage of our lives takes place inside buildings. In fact, most of us probably have to make a conscious effort to actually spend time outside of buildings. I know that I try to make a point of spending time outside every day, and I have to be conscious about it, because it might not otherwise happen. And as a result of that, centrality in our lives, buildings are major users of energy. Some estimates say that around 30 to 40% of energy use in Canada is associated with buildings, and they're also a major source of greenhouse gas emissions. So around maybe 18% or so in Canada. That means that the buildings themselves and the way we build them, the way we heat them, the way we use them, are an important part of our efforts to decarbonize and to further the ongoing energy transition.

Bryan Flannigan 07:24

We tend to focus on kind of four main areas, making sure that there's policy support at various levels of government, and understanding which policies might be effective and which ones might be less so, and trying to advance the ones that are high leverage, looking at the grid impacts of electrifying buildings. Because it's undeniable that if you switch from fossil combustion of fossil fuels to electricity, you require a clean electricity system that has to have the capacity and be robust enough to support that. So we want to be clear about that. We want to really address that in a cogent sort of way, and then really mobilizing and activating the sector to implement these changes and to find the solutions, because many of the solutions are at the intersection of different subsets of the of the sector, whether it's banking and finance, or whether it's development community or the utilities, every market actor has a role to play to find solutions. Is very rarely one sub sector that can really act to, you know, to overcome a barrier. And so we try to work at the intersection of these different groups, and by convening the players, we can roll up our sleeves and kind of get to that. And then, last but not least, you know, this is a very complex sort of question in terms of, how do we get there? What are the pathways? It kind of reminds me of nutrition, medicine, things like that, where, you know, at one instance, it's great to eat eggs, and another instance, terrible to eat eggs, and then it's good to eat eggs again, because the evidence is shifting right, and we have to follow the evidence. We have to understand that the systems are complex and that various investments in the grid will alter the landscape. And so we're working really hard to increase the analytical capacity of the sector, to model and to be able to understand how this will really play out when you have exponential sort of technological advancement coming to play, and you know, different investments and different dynamics that are bearing out as the sector decarbonizes, which is, it's really complex, and so we need better tools to be able to grapple with that. So those are the four sort of main areas, and it's a heavy lift. We arrive on the scene with great humility, recognizing that we stand on the shoulder of many, many other organizations who have come into the space, trying to take a slightly different approach by bringing all the players together and trying to find some common understanding of how we how we get this done. You know, we have to do something different. We've been doing energy efficiency for four decades, give or take with the programming that we've had, and it's been very effective. I don't think there's any more old T 12 light bulbs anywhere that worked. That's great, but we need to do something different now to get fossil fuels out of the buildings for heating purposes, right? That's the goal.

Trevor Freeman 09:53

So what resonates most for me about Bryan's message is the idea that buildings aren't obstacles to decarbonization. They're really. The engines for it, as the renewable electricity systems we have our buildings will become smarter, cleaner, more efficient, and as we talk about we spend a lot of our time in buildings. And so when we think about grid interactive homes to solar ready construction and thermal storage, the building sector is really becoming a major driver, or has the potential to become a major driver of renewable transformation. So speaking of storage, this next clip is a revisit of the conversation that I had with Justin Rangooni from Electricity Storage Canada, and we explored one of the biggest enablers of renewable energy growth, which is battery storage, because, you know, let's face it, the sun isn't always shining and the wind isn't always blowing in the right direction. And with batteries, you can really create flexibility and stability for your renewable systems. And ultimately, that comes down to possibility. So my conversation with Justin really walks through how these battery systems both utility scale but also behind the meter, kind of more individual sized unlock far more renewable energy by making it dispatchable, resilient, responsive, et cetera. And I think in this next clip, we really capture that beautifully.

Justin Rangooni 11:16

Okay, so the best way to think of it is. There's an analogy that one of our members had always said, and we continue to use it when we talk about energy storage. And the great things that can do is that it's like bacon. It makes everything better. I don't eat bacon, but I take I understand the concept, and what that means is, if you look at it from a grid management point of view is that we have all in Ontario, we're lucky to have a pretty clean grid. If it's nuclear power, or it's water power, or it's intermittent generation like wind and solar and even some gas too, which is which is near zero, low, low carbon, and we don't have coal, so it's a clean grid, and energy storage can make that better in the sense that it will optimize those generation assets so we're not wasting it. So those days before we would hear about when energy is needed but the wind's not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or we don't need the energy and we have to spill water, or, you know, we may have to power down a ramp, down a bit of the nuclear ramp, or the natural gas units. Now, energy storage can make sure we don't waste that now we can collect that power when it's done, when it's when it's being done, when it's being made, and we're holding it for when it's needed. And from a grid management that is the real key. That is the game changer that energy storage provides. And if we break it down, down to the customer themselves. You know, you're trying to think of now, not just helping keep the lights on. We're also talking about your rates now in terms of, now, we can kind of defer those investments in terms of more generation, because now you have energy storage that's getting more out of it. We're also talking from the distribution side of poles and wires. Maybe you don't you can defer those investments a little longer with more distributed, connected energy storage. So now the customer is starting to see the benefits of energy storage in their rates and in their electricity bill. And look, I just got an electric car, so really excited about it, and I can see the possibilities of that car being a battery from my home for my use, which, again, now maybe that's still a bit down the road with B to G and, you know, using it to power a residential energy storage unit in my house. But the possibilities are really endless. So this is really the exciting thing about energy storage, from a Grid Manager down to the customer,

Trevor Freeman 13:38

Yeah, and I think it's, it's important to think about the different contexts that energy storage can play, or the different roles that it can play for our individual customers, a homeowner. There is a role for storage there, and you get some of those benefits that you just mentioned, but then we can scale that all the way up to the grid level. And you know, us in the utility space also have some things that we can do with energy storage. And like you said, we can manage things a little bit better. We don't have to waste that energy. We can generate it when it's cheap and hold on to it and use it when it's maybe a bit more difficult in those peak periods. So lots of different uses. Thanks for laying that out for us. Now we hear a lot about, you know, decentralization and community based energy systems kind of more control at the community level. When it comes to energy what's the role of energy storage in systems like that?

Justin Rangooni 14:34

Well, I think that's energy storage can really make that a reality. Now, again, I think I'll go back to my example having an electric car, it seems like more getting closer to being more a prosumer than just a consumer now. So I can see the possibilities of using electric vehicle. You could and then you start to pair that with other kind of your thermostat or your other smart technologies in your home. So now, when we're talking about decentralizing community-based energy. Systems, the consumer, the utility, the system operator, you're all able to get in the space of playing with the technologies. And that's really again, where it gets kind of exciting, that everyone's playing a role. There are different possibilities to use, and we think energy storage is the key to doing that, because it can store that energy when it's not needed, and you can use it when it's needed. And if the technology evolution continues, eventually, the homeowner, the business owner, can start to use that. I can use buy power from the cars. I can use my power that I'm generating myself or from the distribution grid. And now I can start to play with it and use it store overnight when rates are low or when it's excess supply, I could store that energy and use it when it's needed during the day. So really exciting times, and that's why we think energy storage is key to any decentralized or community-based energy systems.

Trevor Freeman 15:53

Yeah, really unlocks that ability to push control into the hands of the end user, whether that's the homeowner or the business owner or the community, kind of pushes it downstream into their hands. So really, every renewable energy expansion story has, you know, a chapter on storage. Batteries are no longer just an add on. They're becoming really an essential part of the conversation and a consideration for all these projects. And like Justin said, you know, a battery is like bacon. It makes everything better. And I couldn't agree more about bacon and batteries, from batteries powering homes and emergencies to grid scale storage, smoothing out renewable intermittency to neighborhood level systems, supporting micro grids, these are all things that we'll hopefully start to see more in our lives and in our communities. Battery storage is really what turns renewable energy into performance, great performance, and we're actually going to see those impacts. It's also tying into our next episode, because if batteries make renewables flexible, then something like a district energy system is how you really take that to scale. So in this episode that we're going to play a clip from, we took a deep dive into a world that often operates behind the scenes. And it was really great to reconnect with kind of an old friend and colleague, Scott Demark, about district energy systems. These systems provide heating and cooling to entire neighborhoods or campuses by using centralized, efficient infrastructure. And you know, you maybe you're asking, why does this tie into renewable energy? And that's because district systems are one of the most effective ways to integrate large scale renewable heat sources, whether that's taking waste heat from existing sources or geo exchange biomass, you know, ultra-efficient thermal storage, and putting that to good use. And so listen to this clip from my conversation with Scott that kind of captures that idea. So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition this, this push to one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs, and two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, etc, to more of a two way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition? How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?

Scott Demark 18:29

I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in. That industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are just starting right. Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth and so they don't have the same cost structure. And oftentimes they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale, that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where you know you might want to go and recover heat from some process. And we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if you want to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it. But if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly, district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So once you've established that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings, what the source and what the sources doesn't matter. So you may have at one point, built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy Systems a great example of this. Markham district energy system was built on the concept of using a cogeneration facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity. They sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well here we are, 20 plus years later, and they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system, augment, not fully replace, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't have to rip up the pipes, they don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept. Now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.

Trevor Freeman 21:24

And because district energy systems make renewable energy more affordable through scalability and shared infrastructure, in some cases, the economic case for entire communities or neighborhoods or even large industrial complexes to adopt them is really becoming something that people are looking at. It's becoming more compelling. It's not going to work in every instance, as we talk about with Scott in the full episode, but it really kind of opens the door to more possibilities. And that brings us to our final episode highlight, which is a big picture look at some of the politics and trends and strategies that helped shape renewable energy in 2025 now we played a clip from this episode in our last rewind episode, but I want to revisit another part of that episode, and this is the beginning of the year when I kind of laid out some of the trends and things that we thought might shape energy politics in the year ahead, in 2025 and we looked at Canada and the US and global markets to really try and get a sense of where renewable energy was heading, just to remind you of where we were back then. We were facing a couple of elections ahead of us and the possibility for new or different federal governments, political government or provincial government. Sorry, looking at affordability conversations worldwide, momentum around clean generation. In this clip that we're going to play, we really talk about how renewable energy doesn't advance in isolation. It moves forward because of political, economic and technological factors that really help shape those conditions and create those conditions for growth, and those are essential if we do want to grow together. So I'm going to play this clip here and have a listen to kind of what we were thinking about at the beginning of 2025 and just a quick teaser, we'll be doing something similar in the early part of 2026 and so that'll give us a chance to maybe pick apart how close we were to reality. So without further ado, let's dive into those areas. Area number one is politics. So energy is political, and energy shapes politics, and politics shapes energy, and that's the same every year, but 2025, is shaping up to be a pretty significant year when it comes to political change that might impact energy policy. So to start with, we are mere days away, a little over a week away, as I record this from a new US administration. The Trump administration will take over on January 20, and like any change in administration, in what is arguably the biggest economy in the world that will have an impact on climate change policy, Energy policy, the flow of goods across borders. You know, there's talk of tariffs between Canada and the US. So just because it is in the United States, that doesn't mean it won't impact us here in Canada. So we'll be looking to see what change that does bring, what how that influences politics and energy policy and the flow of goods and all of those things that can impact what we do with energy a little bit closer to home. However, we also have some change potentially coming here in Ontario, at least, we are looking at potentially two elections this year. So to start with, there's the federal election. It is very, very likely, almost a sure thing, that we will see a federal election in the coming months. Justin Trudeau has recently announced his resignation, which will almost definitely trigger an election. So we could be looking at a new government or a new mandate for the existing government. So what might that mean? Well, if the. The liberal party, the current government manages to get another mandate and remain in power, we kind of know what their priorities are. They've been going down a path for the last little while. They will probably continue to invest in clean energy infrastructure. They will continue to push for net zero goals and look for ways to support others to achieve Net Zero targets as well. If there's a change in governments, which the polling suggests is likely that conservatives get into power, they are likely to look to prioritize affordability and resource sector competitiveness. They may also adjust timelines for emissions targets as a result of that, the one big thing that's worth mentioning, of course, is the price on carbon. This was brought in by the existing Liberal government, and they stand behind it. The Conservatives are very much campaigning on a platform of getting rid of the price on carbon, the Federal price on carbon, that will have significant impact on energy policy and how things move. There are a few previous episodes that you can listen to that talk a little bit about that, and I'm sure we'll talk about it throughout the year as things play out. And finally, in this section, in Ontario, it's very likely that we might see a provincial election as well. All signs are kind of pointing towards a provincial election this year. So what could that mean? Well, similarly, our existing government has kind of made their energy policy known. We know what their focus is, so they are focused on expanding our traditional energy mix, so nuclear, some natural gas, as well as some investments in renewables in order to make sure that the grid can handle growth and electrification in the sort of rising demand that we're seeing. Should we see a change in government to one of the opposition parties? There may be more of a push for more renewable sources and lowering those carbon emissions faster than the current pace of change, at least based on what they are saying. So we'll keep an eye on that and how that comes into play. Obviously, energy is sort of primarily in the provincial jurisdiction here, so a change in government or a new mandate for the existing government would certainly have a big impact on energy policy. So area number one politics, area number two is energy affordability. So as we've said, renewable energy progress doesn't just depend on the technology itself, it depends on the systems around it. 2025 really turned out to be a pretty pivotal year. And I think we'll probably look at every year in recent history and moving forward as pivotal years, because there was this convergence of political shifts and economic pressures and policy decisions that in some ways created a supportive environment for renewable energy planning and implementation, but not without barriers and not without challenges and so we're probably not where we would have wanted to be at the end of 2025 if we Were being absolutely optimistic. And thinking about a great outcome for the end of the year, but that's not to say progress wasn't made. As we close out part two of our holiday rewind, one thing becomes crystal clear, and something that I want to highlight, renewable energy isn't just a single technology or single story, it's a movement made of many different interconnected pieces, from the specific technologies of DERs that empower our customers to the buildings that are evolving into clean energy assets, to the batteries that are helping unlock flexibility in our renewable energy systems, to systems like district energy that are really transforming communities and campuses, and finally, to the policies and trends and, you know, other forces that are really shaping the pace of all this progress together, they show that there is a future that's cleaner and smarter and more resilient and far more electrified. These things are possible, and we are moving in that direction. The big question is always the pace that we're moving at. Thanks for joining me for our final rewind of the year. In fact, our final episode of the year. On behalf of the entire thinkenergy team, we really are grateful for your time, your curiosity and your commitment to understanding the energy transition, and, quite frankly, to your expertise. I know a lot of folks listening, and everybody that I have on the show really has a lot of great thinking and knowledge on these topics, and I'm really appreciative of getting to talk to those folks and bring some of that insight to the show. We will be back in the new year, absolutely, with more conversations that the goal is to illuminate and challenge and inspire and really continue this conversation with all of you and with our fantastic guests. Until then, stay warm, stay safe and stay energized. Thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Canada's energy transition isn't coming. It's already here. As 2025 winds down, Trevor shares a holiday rewind featuring five of the most electrifying conversations from the thinkenergy podcast this year. From clean energy trends and Hydro Ottawa's investment plan to grid modernization, the rise of DERs, and decarbonizing buildings. Sit down with something warm and revisit the insights, challenges, and big ideas that defined our fast-moving energy landscape in 2025.

Related links

• Episode 149 (Looking ahead at 2025 clean energy trends): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/looking-ahead-at-2025-clean-energy-trends/
• Episode 160 (Digging into Hydro Ottawa's historically large investment plan): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/summer-rewind-digging-into-hydro-ottawas-historically-large-investment-plan/
• Episode 162 (Consumer impact: revisiting grid modernization with Capgemini Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/consumer-impact-revisiting-grid-modernization-with-capgemini-canada/
• Episode 163 (How Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) are reshaping the grid): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/thinkenergy-shorts-how-distributed-energy-resources-ders-are-reshaping-the-grid/
• Episode 150 (Decarbonizing Canada's buildings with the Building Decarbonization Alliance): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-canadas-buildings-with-the-building-decarbonization-alliance/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. This is our special holiday rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast, which has become a bit of a tradition around here. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, and as we settle into the final days of the year, it feels like the perfect time to slow down and take a look back at some of the conversations that we feel really shaped 2025 at least, for the podcast and in our own minds. This year, we explored everything from grid modernization to decarbonizing buildings distributed energy resources (DERs) and some of the technologies that are really defining how Canadians live, work and stay connected. Today's episode is the first of a two-part holiday rewind series, each part highlighting five standout episodes that we feel really sparked ideas curiosity and great discussions throughout the year. So pull up a comfortable seat, pour yourself something seasonal and festive, and join me as we revisit some of the insights and innovations that we feel lit up 2025 to start with, we kicked off 2025 with a forward looking conversation on some of the trends that we thought might shape the year, and to be honest that many of them unfolded even more quickly than we expected. In our first episode of 2025 we looked at clean energy trends. We talked through how electrification and AI driven grid intelligence and new customer expectations were really going to change the landscape in real time for us, here's a moment that we captured just how quickly the industry is accelerating and why adaptability is so important to us. At the same time, utilities across the country will continue to invest in grid modernization. So as well as infrastructure expansion, not just modernization, we're also building and growing our grids to keep up with the pace of change, but we need to also be able to leverage more DERs on the grid, so more distributed energy resources, small scale solar generation, things like that. So we will continue to see utilities make steps in that direction. They will look to levels of government to support those initiatives, through programs and funding and regulatory change. So we will continue to see that change in grid modernization, but I know it's definitely a big topic for us here at hydro Ottawa. And finally, in this section, energy efficiency. Energy efficiency is not new. It's been around for quite a while. In fact, it was the primary focus, kind of before we shifted a little bit more towards thinking about carbon. But we cannot fully decarbonize, we cannot fully electrify without significant energy efficiency. We just won't be able to affordably build the infrastructure we need if we're not using energy in an efficient way. So that will continue to be a focus. And in fact, I mentioned the new incentive programs from the province of Ontario that is very much designed to support ongoing energy efficiency measures. So we will continue to see that as a focus in 2025 and our final area, area number five, is technology. So there is no year anymore. In fact, maybe there never was where technology doesn't continue to grow and expand and evolve in ways that we couldn't even imagine, and it does seem like the pace of change is picking up, but I think that's kind of normal. So we will see technology that supports or augments the energy transition continue to evolve in 2025 and the ways that technology influenced that really, you know, we have an idea on some of them, and it'll be interesting to look back in 12 months at what we know in December, 2025 that we didn't even know here today in January. So there you have it. That's going back 12 months. And my expectation of what 2025 might have in store in the new year, I'll be doing a similar deep dive on some of the trends that we've been seeing over the course of this year and what we might expect to continue into 2026 but that idea that the pace of change is accelerating certainly became one of the defining themes of the year, and I think is something that we can expect to stick with us for the foreseeable future. And I think you'll hear echoes of that in all the different episodes that we revisit today. Next up, a modern, reliable grid doesn't just happen. It's built through long term planning, thoughtful investments and a deep understanding of how our communities are growing and how their energy needs are changing. In an episode that we. Least back in June, we unpacked hydro Ottawa's 2026 to 2030 investment plan, and what that means for reliability and customer experience and preparing the system for tomorrow. In this next clip, I chat with Hydro Ottawa's Guillaume Paradis to really get into why it's so critical that we get our investment in the next five years, right for our grid, so that that's a nice segue into his next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this is why it is an investment plan we're out there outlining. These are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that, and so if we don't do this, if we said, look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas, what are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like, quality of service, reliability, safety, etc, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now.

Guillaume Paradis 06:03

Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? What we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 26 to 2030 is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years, what would be an appropriate rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues. We've looked at how we make sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years. And then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers, because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers live, yes, in a positive manner when our service is reliable and power is available, but also financially. From a cost standpoint, we add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives, and so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs the level of investments in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in in our setting the plans for the future. So doing so looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans, if we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers. And we took a very deliberate, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place. So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing. You know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it ranges from, you know, difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community so fairly direct, and frankly, you know, it's our obligation to connect, so we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult take more time on the reliability front again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80 year old wood pole doesn't get any younger and. Doesn't get any stronger if you wait five, six more years. And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those type of assets. And you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those polls that are deteriorated are more likely to fail, even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for our customers, with respect to other outcomes, like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources, that might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we're don't have good real time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest so old assets are inherently more likely to create failure risks and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint. So we would have to and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be an R always very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems. But reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences. And of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that, you know, we continue to deliver the best service we can, but that would become more difficult than it is today.

Trevor Freeman 12:29

So that forward focus, that planning for the city that Ottawa is becoming and our energy needs of the future really reflects that shifting mindset that we're seeing across the whole sector. And I think we saw that throughout 2025 and certainly are going to keep seeing that throughout 2026 for our next clip, one of our most popular conversations of the year, not surprisingly, was with Andrea Nuesser from Capgemini, Canada. Andrea and I dug deep into what it means to modernize the grid, how technology, data, cybersecurity and customer expectations are all coming together and pushing utilities into a new era of grid management and grid design. This was a really great, wide-ranging conversation, but there was one moment that really stood out for its clarity and simplicity, and it highlighted this idea that modernizing the grid isn't just about technology alone. It's primarily about people. Yeah, well, let's do that right now. Actually, it's exactly where I wanted to go. Next is you and I have chatted before and talked about how there is this shift in how utilities are seeing customers, and there's a traditional mindset of how utilities looked at their customers, which has been different from you know, take your average retail customer, or retail relationship between an organization and a customer, utilities are shifting more. So let's dive into that. Tell me a little bit more about what that shift is, and how you see utilities moving in terms of how they engage with customers.

Andrea Nuesser 14:00

Yeah, so when I started working with utilities, the term rate payer was a very prominent term. So utilities would refer to their customers as rate payers, or in terms of account numbers, really and what mattered was really just how much electricity do these accounts or these rate payers consume, and there was very little other consideration around that. So I think there's a real shift happening right now where utilities are trying to understand who is this, who is this family, who are these individuals behind these account numbers? Because if I understand and if I become interested as a utility in who is actually consuming electricity, I can have a very different relationship with them. I can reach them with the right messaging, because it matters a lot to me. And if somebody talks to me and understands that. Let's say I'm a growing family living in a more urban area versus a retired couple out in the booth somewhere. So I think demonstrating that understanding really opens up opportunities for much deeper relationship and more targeted customer programs and overall, different messaging and communication, and ultimately an opportunity to build trust between customers and utilities, something that in the past, has been a little bit shaky, I would say, but there's huge opportunity to build brand awareness, to build this, this value based relationship and to build trust.

Trevor Freeman 15:45

I really liked this conversation, and I liked this particular moment because it really conveys that grid modernization goes beyond just the technological improvements, and it really prioritizes the human relationships and human interaction at the heart of our energy system, ultimately, all of this that we talk about on the show, the technology, the strategies, the policies, it's all about how we as people, as energy consumers, interact with our energy systems and use it to do all the other things in our life that are important doing, you know, heating our spaces and traveling and moving our families from one place to another, and all these things that are actually the important things are tied up in the energy system. And I liked how this conversation really tied those, those two concepts together. Next up this year, we definitely talked about distributed energy resources. It's been a theme of the podcast for a long time now, but we really are seeing lots of movement and progress. And this episode that I'm about to highlight really broke down how rooftop solar, battery storage, EVs, smart devices, they're all creating a more dynamic, flexible and decentralized grid. So it's taking DERs from just kind of standalone devices that do their own thing to really this ecosystem of devices and technologies that interact together. In this clip that you're about to hear, we explore why DERs, they're not just a technical change, but they're really a cultural one as well. One option to set up your der for financial reasons, is net metering, which I kind of alluded to earlier. Net metering is a setup for renewable generation sources only that allows you to use as much of your generation as you can to power your home when you're using it, and then push back whatever you don't use to the grid. Whatever you push back to the grid will give you a credit on your bill that you can use to offset the electricity charge portion of your bill. In the near future, you will also likely see more utilities wanting to partner with der owners. Here at hydro Ottawa, we are working on a technology project that will be launched next year that will enable der owners to leverage their devices for an incentive to help manage the grid in targeted areas. It's pretty exciting stuff, and it's really the next wave of distributed energy resources on our grid and how we're going to interact with them. It's pretty exciting. And finally, last one for this episode, one of our more thought provoking conversations of the year was with Bryan Flannigan from the Building Decarbonization Alliance. In this conversation, we talked about decarbonizing Canada's buildings. Bryan helped us really unpack why buildings are such a significant part of Canada's emissions profile, and why solutions require systems thinking, collaboration and long-term commitment. This clip really kind of captures the heart of that conversation, balancing practicality with urgency. Yeah, I know on this show, we talk a lot about the different parts of, as you said, all of society that need to be decarbonized. Obviously, buildings kind of comes to the forefront often, and so specifically around buildings talk us through this, maybe kind of a basic question, but, you know, help our listeners understand, why are buildings so important? Why is the decarbonization of our built environments so important when it comes to decarbonizing all of society?

Bryan Flannigan 19:17

Yeah, I mean, that's the crux of the question, right? Well, there's a bunch of reasons. I mean, if you think about it, the building, this is where we live, right? These are our homes. These are this is where we go to work. This is our place. Is a business from an economic perspective, organizations arrive in jurisdictions for the purposes of meeting their overall objectives. And if you require energy intensive sort of production. Or if you want to have a big workforce, you want to house your workforce in buildings that align with your objectives. And increasingly, those objectives feature a carbon kind of future, right? And so just from that perspective, it's important for us to kind of get aligned with the global trend toward this, to make sure that we have the investments that we need. And that we want to attract, and we want to have places where people can live that are aligned with those kinds of values. But from an emissions perspective, it's hard to kind of overstate how important the sector actually winds up being. The building sector emits about 90 megatons, give or take, of direct scope one emissions. And if you factor in the grid emissions that result from being buildings being connected to the grids across Canada. It's about 120 megatons. There are digits there that we could go into. But to put it into context, that's about the same as all of the vehicles on the road. So when we think about how important it is to electrify the fleet of vehicles that we're all driving, the building sector is the same. It's the same level of importance. And if we think about all of the work that we've done to decarbonize our electricity system over the years, eliminating coal plants, and those kinds of initiatives that we hear are in the news recently, the building sector emits about twice as much as all of that. And so, the context is that buildings are pretty vast in terms of the overall emissions. And when we think about where those emissions come from, ultimately, it's combustion of fossil fuels for heating our buildings. We're in a cold climate in Canada, takes a lot of energy to heat buildings, and because of the abundance of the resource and a bunch of policy decisions that have been made decades ago, you know, we're in a situation where we've got an abundant and relatively inexpensive source of fossil fuel to heat our buildings. It's about 1500 petajoules, I guess, give or take, and ultimately, we need to move to eliminate that over time, or to largely eliminate it. I mean, I think there's always going to be a bit left in the system. There's, you know, it's, it's a very complex and daunting task, because the building sector itself is very diverse. The buildings last a really long time. It's not like, you know, technology change, where you have if you want to change a phone, you can upgrade it from one year to the next. It's small. It fits in your pocket. It's easy to manage. But buildings are constructed to last hundreds, 100 years. 50 years is the typical lifespan. But, you know, we have lots of buildings that are very, very old, and it's a slow kind of system to turn over. It's a slow inventory to turn over. So it's a really big challenge, a lot of a lot of emissions from the sector. And so it rises to the level of really needing close attention and a different approach than what we've been taking in the past.

Trevor Freeman 22:15

Bryan's point there about systems level planning really resonates deeply with all the things we've been talking about this year, because none of these challenges exist in isolation. And systems thinking and systems planning is really this important concept or this important ethos, and something I actually want to explore further. And so keep your eyes open for an episode on that sometime in 2026 so as we wrap up this first of two holiday rewind episodes. The few themes keep rising to the surface. There's the accelerating pace of electrification. No question that we're seeing electrification continue to move forward, and to do so at an increasing pace, despite some bumps in the road, and we're going to see that. We're going to see two steps forward and one step back. But I think we're still seeing an increased pace of electrification, we are seeing the importance of modernization, of moving the technologies that we use to monitor and manage the grid forward in terms of, you know, catching up to where we are with modern technology. And we're also seeing the need for long-term thinking as Canada transitions towards a, you know, low or no carbon future towards net zero as we electrify our lives, we need to have that long term vision in mind, whether we're talking about the future of buildings, upgrading the grid, embracing distributed energy resources or navigating some new and emerging technologies. There's one truth that kind of stood out, and it's something I've said before, but I really want to make sure everyone kind of sits with this and appreciates it. Is that the energy transition is not something that is going to happen? It's not something that's in the future. It is something that's happening right now. We are in the midst of the energy transition. It's not going to be over tomorrow. It's not one of these things that happens very quickly, but we are living it right now. We are seeing it all around us, and it's something that I'm really excited about, talking on this podcast about and with our fantastic guests, and I'm glad to have all of you along with us on that journey. So join us in two weeks for the second part of our holiday rewind series. On that one, we're going to turn the spotlight towards renewable energy and revisit some of the conversations that inspired us the most in 2025 until then, from all of us at think energy, warm wishes for the holiday season. I hope you're staying warm and safe and have a great December and thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Waves, river currents, and tidal turbines could help power Canada's clean energy future. Trevor speaks with Elisa Obermann, Executive Director at Marine Renewables Canada, about the promise of marine energy and how countries like Canada are pursuing its potential. They explore how emerging 'blue energy' technologies complement solar and wind, support coastal and Indigenous communities, and move us toward a more sustainable, diverse net-zero grid.

Related links

• Marine Renewables Canada: https://marinerenewables.ca/
• Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy (FORCE): https://fundyforce.ca/
• canmetENERGY: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/science-data/science-research/research-centres/canmetenergy
• Yuquot Wave Energy Project: https://barkley.ca/project/yuquot-wave-energy-project/
• Blind Channel Tidal Energy Demonstration Centre: https://onlineacademiccommunity.uvic.ca/primed/blind-channel/
• European Marine Energy Center (EMEC): https://www.emec.org.uk/
• Canadian Hydrokinetic Turbine Test Centre: (CHTTC): http://www.chttc.ca/

• Elisa Obermann on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/elisa-obermann-07469245/

• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. I have a really great conversation for you today, but before I get to that, I think it's worth a minute or two of time to revisit some first principles people approach the energy conversation from all different backgrounds and angles, and I think it's good to make sure that we're all on the same page when it comes to some foundational knowledge before we dive into our topic today, the thing that I want to quickly review is electricity generation. Now don't worry, we're not going to get into an advanced physics level of knowledge on this, but I just want to quickly refresh everyone on the basics. And by the same token, to all of you advanced physics folks out there that are listening, please forgive me if I'm slightly off on a detail or two, as long as I don't mess up the core foundational information. So for the most part, the electricity that we use is primarily generated by spinning a coil of wire around a magnet, or inversely, spinning a magnet inside a coil of wire that causes electrons to move, and that flow of electrons is electricity. For the most part, that combination of coiled wire and magnets and a spinning motion is what makes most of our electricity. There is one major exception to this, which is solar power that doesn't involve spinning anything. But other than that, our major electricity sources utilize that spinning motion, and I'm not including hydrogen fuel cells here as a major source of electricity. So let's keep going with this spinning idea. Then the next question is, how do we make things spin? One very common method is heat. Let's say you burn something, coal or natural gas, for example, which creates heat. You then use that heat to boil water, which makes steam, which you can push at high pressure against turbine blades to make them spin. It's as simple as that. The problem is, burning things creates harmful emissions, which are causing climate change. You can also generate heat with non emitting sources, and a major one, especially here in Ontario, is nuclear power, splitting atoms in a controlled environment, a nuclear reaction generates heat and then the process is the same as previously described. So as complex as a nuclear reactor is its main purpose when it comes to electricity generation, is simply making heat so we can boil water and create steam, et cetera, other than heat. The other way to make things spin is to utilize naturally occurring kinetic energy. So that means something that's already happening out there that carries a lot of force that can push a turbine blade. This would include wind energy, so using the force of the wind to turn large wind turbines and hydro electricity, which uses water being pulled downhill by gravity, so a flowing river or a large dam to turn that turbine the same end results that spinning motion, but no need to create heat to get there. We're almost done with the science lesson, so just bear with me for another few seconds as we think about reducing our carbon emissions, finding ways to generate electricity that don't require burning fossil fuels is really important. Solar definitely has a role to play, but we also need more emissions free ways to spin things. I mentioned some of the more traditional ones, like solar and wind energy, but today's conversation is about some lesser known, emerging methods, which are covered by the term marine renewable energy generation. Phew, it was a long walk to get there, but we finally got here. All of that is to tee up my conversation today with Elisa Obermann, the Executive Director of Marine Renewables Canada. Marine Renewables Canada is the National Association for tidal wave and river current energy in addition to offshore wind. But it's those first three generation strategies that I am particularly interested in as non mainstream ways to spin things. These technologies are known as blue energy, but are often overshadowed by the more common renewable energies that we talked about, solar and wind generation. So I'm really excited to chat with Elisa to shed some light on them. Today. Elisa has served as the executive director of marine renewables Canada since 2015 she's a founding member of both the Electricity Alliance Canada and the Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity. She has also worked for several other organizations that focus on clean technology, tidal energy and the broader renewable energy sector, including Sustainable Development Technology Canada, the Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy. Which you'll hear us talk about today as force and Nova scotia's Department of Energy. Elisa Obermann, welcome to the show.

Elisa Obermann 05:07

Hi. Thank you very much for having me.

Trevor Freeman 05:09

So, let's start off kind of with the basics. Elisa, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into this pretty unique space in the energy sector that we're going to dive into a little bit more.

Elisa Obermann 05:22

Sure. So I decided after doing my undergrad, so I'm going kind of way back here, all the way back. Yeah, exactly. I did a degree, a bachelor's degree in English, but I really wanted to get involved in something that would help me do more for the environment, play a role in the future. So I decided to go back to school to do a public policy degree. And the first internship I had was with Nova Scotia Department of Energy, and it was actually on the oil and gas side of things, but my thinking was, well, this will get me eventually to where I want to go and working more in renewables. And that's essentially exactly what happened. And so I started working more and more there on renewable energy. Then started working on the province's marine renewable energy strategy. So it really kind of got me into this kind of path of, you know, working on climate change and renewable energy. And the other thing I will also say is that I grew up in Maine and really close to the ocean, and so after university, I moved to Toronto for a while, and I thought to myself, like, I really just want to do something that takes me back to the ocean. So this really combines both kind of goals I had for myself, in terms of working to protect and help the environment, and then also staying close to the ocean.

Trevor Freeman 06:35

Yeah. I mean, that makes a ton of sense. It's interesting. I talked to a lot of people, obviously, and often the question of career path comes up, and it's funny to see the things that we're passionate about in those early days, no one could guess how that comes to fruition later on in our careers. And you know, I've got some similar stories of wanting to save the world when I was in university and having no idea how the different paths that that would take me on. So great to hear your story. Thanks for sharing that. Tell us now a little bit about your organization, marine renewable Canada, and you know, kind of its vision for how marine renewables will fit into the energy sector.

Elisa Obermann 07:10

Yeah. So marine renewables Canada is a National Association. We're headquartered in Halifax, but we do work across the country, and actually, our beginnings were in British Columbia, really starting around like wave energy, small scale projects. One of our founding members at the time was BC Hydro. We now have over 200 members, and that's really grown just in the past couple years, because our focus is on wave, tidal, river current energy, but also offshore wind. And so there's been a lot of excitement, especially on the East Coast, around offshore wind, but today I'll probably focus mostly on kind of those water resources and how we're working to advance those. Our mandate is really to champion the sector, help with advocacy, engagement, education, and also expand market opportunities. So obviously we do a lot of work around enabling policies that help open up that market, both here, but also globally. But ultimately, what we'd like to see is that marine renewables is playing a role in getting Canada to net zero and right now. I mean, it's a more emerging technology, if you look at wave, tidal and river, but there's a lot of potential for it to play a big role.

Trevor Freeman 08:20

Yeah, so great. And that's a great segue into kind of the next thing I want to talk about on this show. We often talk about, let's call them the more traditional or conventional or well known energy sources, so our kind of traditional fossil fuel combustion, our other renewable sources, solar and wind, and even offshore wind, I think people have a sense of what that is. I mean, wind energy is the same on land as off land. It's just in a different location. But tell us about the types of marine energy that you're talking about. You just referenced some of them here, you know, take us back to basics. What are we talking about when we talk about marine energy?

Elisa Obermann 08:56

Yeah, absolutely. So I would categorize it as four main kinds, but I also will mention that there are some that our association doesn't cover. And I will touch on those, sure, primarily. So we focus on tidal energy. And when I say tidal I don't mean barrages or dams, which were kind of a more prevalent technology, you know, decades ago. What I'm talking about is what we call tidal stream and so essentially, if you think of, you know, what wind turbines look like, it's essentially a wind turbine, but in the water, so it can be developed or deployed incrementally, which is a lot different than what you think of when you think of a dam that has, you know, very long lasting effects. The idea behind title is that you can install it incrementally if there's concerns and with any kind of impacts to the environment, or concerns with, you know, the technology failing, or anything like that, you are able to remove it, or, you know, have maintenance on it fairly quickly. Wave Energy is another one that we focus on. It's the technology is not as far along as tidal in terms of, you know, getting to a commercial state. And there are many different. Different types of concepts, still for Wave technologies, but essentially, they can be placed near shore or further offshore. One of the things that's been, I think, kind of cool to think about is there's discussions around and some prototype type projects around using wave energy to power, for example, oil and gas platforms and doing that kind of, you know, pairing to help decarbonize that sector's energy use, river current. So I will say a lot of people think marine like that doesn't, you know, make sense rivers, you know, not by the ocean. And the reason we look at it and categorize it as a Marine renewable energy is that the technology is very similar to title, and so it's essentially the same technology that's used, except that it is unidirectional. So when you think of the flow of river, it's going one way, whereas tides, the technology would be used as a bi directional because the tides are going in and out. So but otherwise very, very similar. And then we actually also cover offshore wind, which is, of all of those, you know, a more mature marine renewable technology. And as I said, I think probably today I'll talk mostly about some of the earlier stage technologies. Our association doesn't cover a few others, and I just feel like they're worth mentioning, just because they're kind of cool. Also, floating solar is one that is gaining, you know, I think some more popularity, and also people are looking more what you know, how much of an impact it could have, ocean current technology, which would be kind of further offshore, and ocean thermal. And you can imagine, Ocean Thermal hasn't really been talked about a lot in Canada, because you have colder waters. Like, the technology just isn't right, the right fit.

Trevor Freeman 11:35

Got you okay? So I want to, I've got a whole whack of questions I want to understand, make sure I'm understanding the technology correctly. So let's start with Tidal. For Tidal, obviously, just a quick refresher back to, let's say grade 10 science for our listeners. Tides kind of come in and come out. The water moves up and moves down. You're utilizing that flow of water, that movement of water, which happens twice a day. Is that, right? Twice a day, every 12 hours?

Elisa Obermann 12:02

Yep,

Trevor Freeman 12:02

Good, yeah, just making sure I remember my grades and science most part. And you're using that movement of water to turn turbines that are underwater. Describe those for us. Is that, like you kind of related it to wind energy? Is it like a big wind turbine underwater? Does it look the same? Is it similar to that?

Elisa Obermann 12:20

Yeah, I mean, there's still a few different concepts, but essentially, yeah, that's how you could picture in your mind. I will say some are bottom mounted. So as an example, like it might have a gravity base and be anchored to the well, not even anchored. It could just be the weight of it is holding it to the sea floor. Some of the newer tidal technologies are floating. They're kind of like, on a pontoon type device, and they will have kind of the, you know, the turbines connected to that. But essentially, they're, you know, either way, whether it's floating or seabed mounted, it would be capturing the kinetic energy of the tides

Trevor Freeman 12:54

Gotcha, okay. And then for the run of river ones, it's, it's kind of the same thing. Water is flowing. Typically, rivers are flowing downhill, so that water is always moving, and you've got a turbine in there taking advantage of the fact that that water is moving in a situation where there isn't a dam that's using sort of gravity flow. It's, but it's the same idea. It's, it's flowing water that's turning a turbine. Yes, exactly. So then the one that I'm, I'm sort of not entirely clear on, is waves, like, what is the mechanism there? Is it just the same thing? You're just putting it in a location where there's prevailing waves generated by wind or current or whatever.

Elisa Obermann 13:28

Yeah, that one, I will say, is harder to describe, because I've mentioned there's many different concepts for it, but essentially, if you think of waves like so one concept, maybe this will be easy to visualize, would be more of like a buoy type device, and so it's capturing the height of the wave, like that energy coming through. There's some also called like an oyster. So it opens, like the device opens and closes to capture kinetic energy from waves as well. There's a number of different devices when it comes to to wave energy. And I will also say, depending on where, whether it's closer to shore or further offshore, that the strength of the energy from waves is also can be different too. .

Trevor Freeman 14:08

Yeah. So that's actually what, exactly what my next question was is, how far offshore are we placing these things? Are they like, right at the shore's edge? Are they visible? Are they kind of, you know, whatever, 100 metre out? 500 metres out?

Elisa Obermann 14:22

Yeah, in terms of for TIDAL, I mean, it would be closer to shore, but not necessary. I mean, still quite far out. It's not like you're looking at it and you're, you know, few 100 feet away, further. As an example, like in Nova Scotia, the Bay of Fundy has had several tidal deployments, and it depends on where you are. So there was one that was in a area called southwest Nova Scotia, where, if you were in the harbor, there in Briar Island, is where it was. You could see it right there, like it was very, very close, whereas those being deployed further out. So it really just depends on the location, but also potential impacts to other users. You know. Fisheries, all those kinds of things are considered when they're they're just determining location.

Trevor Freeman 15:04

Got you. And one last question, I apologize, I'm totally going off script here, but you've got me all excited about this, and lots of questions. How is this connected back to land? So you must be running cables, you're generating electricity, you're bringing that back to land, and there's some sort of transformation or storage. It's connected to the provincial grid. Like, what's the connection back to the grid look like?

Elisa Obermann 15:28

Exactly, yeah. So you're exactly right. There will be subsea cables that these devices will be connected to. They'll run to shore. Typically, they'll be connected to a substation, which then would be, you know, transmitting that energy electricity, I should say, to a distribution system or the transmission system. So as an example, force has pretty impressive subsea cables that have already been laid about 64 megawatts capacity with those and they built a substation at that site that then connects to the transmission system.

Trevor Freeman 15:59

Cool, very cool, awesome. Thank you for that. Thanks for entertaining my sort of nerdy curiosity there. So tell us about the benefits. Why is this something that the energy sector should be looking at? What are the benefits of this type of generation?

Elisa Obermann 16:14

Good question, and we get asked a lot. I will say, you know, why are we looking at Marine Renewables when we have solar and onshore wind and hydro that are proven and come at a lower cost, but we know we're going to need more electricity, and so the way we look at we can't put all of our eggs in one basket. We need energy diversity. But also marine renewables, such as Tidal and waves, they have some attributes that other renewables don't, so they can be very complementary to other renewable energy, and actually help to bring on other sources of renewables because of that, you know the synergies that they have. So as an example, and you mentioned it at the beginning, tidal is predictable, so we know when the tides are going to come in and out. We can schedule that. I mean, for energy system planning, we would know even 100 years from now, when exactly is that tide coming out? When is it going to be at peak? And so that's one that is very helpful in terms of reliability, predictability, all those things with waves also, I will say, I mean, they're very similar in some ways, because they are created by wind. So it's kind of the same concept, if you think of bringing it onto the grid, but there is an ability to forecast them further out. And one of the interesting things with wave energy, British Columbia had done some work, and I will say, I think it was the University of Victoria A while ago, just looking at the timing of them and when they're the most strong and powerful and consistent. And they found that they were strongest during peak times, like when BC would really need more power, so in the winter, during stormier times, that kind of thing. So those resources can be a very good match with other resources that maybe, you know, sometimes they they're not generating as much power at a given time.

Trevor Freeman 17:56

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of gets into to where I wanted to go next is, how does this work alongside wind and solar and sort of traditional hydro? You kind of answered that a little bit. We know that we need to grow our greater our energy demand is going to grow. You know, here in Ontario, we're looking at a 75% increase. Across Canada, we're looking at sort of two to three times the growth, and especially clean energy. What sort of percentage or how much of a foothold Do you think marine renewable energy has the capability of meeting of that?

Elisa Obermann 18:30

Yeah, that's a great question. So I will tell you now, I don't have the numbers for that, but I will this January, February. We're actually working on a sector vision, looking exactly at that, like the capacity scenarios, what could be feasible, but really trying to take realistic view of you know, this is how much electricity wave, tidal and river and offshore wind could contribute. But what I will say is that when it comes to Tidal, for example, there has been some resource assessments done in the past. Canada has 40,000 megawatts of potential tidal energy, and that's looking at, you know, the best locations. So it's technical potential, but it's, it's also looking at just feasibility in terms of locations, and what might be, you know, close to grids, that kind of thing. Wave energy is between, I think, 10,000 to 16,000 megawatts, looking at both Pacific and Atlantic coasts and with river current still in early phases of doing some of this work. But Natural Resources Canada can met energy, and also the National Research Council did a pretty extensive resource assessment, and it was around 340 gigawatts of river current, I will say, I mean, that's a lot, right? So there's some factors there that are still, you know, they're working on, trying to understand, so ice, for example, because where rivers, you know, some of the strongest river resources are in areas that are in northern Canada, maybe not feasible. So there's still some more work there to determine what's actually feasible for these technologies.

Trevor Freeman 19:59

Are there this kind of just jogged a question for me. Are there other parts of the world where this technology is, let's say, more mature and greater use, or is Canada kind of leading the fray here, like, where are we compared to other parts of the world?

Elisa Obermann 20:15

So I would say Canada has been pretty well known as a global leader in marine renewable energy, and we started this in kind of the early 2000s starting to look at the resources and the technologies and how we could lead. But this was alongside some other countries that have been also doing that work. So the United Kingdom, Scotland, in particular, France and a number of other European countries. The United States has also put quite a bit of investment in R and D technologies, but the UK probably is the furthest along. And one of the reasons for that, and this is different than what we've done in Canada, is they have targeted funding and programs to really support the sector where I find in Canada, there's been, you know, a lot of great supports by both provincial and federal governments, but most of the time we're competing like, there's not a, you know, a specific program for just marine renewable technology. So I think that's had a bit of an impact even on interacting investment here.

Trevor Freeman 21:13

Gotcha, yeah. So you're trying to fit your projects into a bigger project funding envelope that could cover a bunch of different sort of energy related projects, and you're having to say, Yeah, look, ours fits in here too. Is that fair to say?

Elisa Obermann 21:24

Yeah, exactly, exactly. .

Trevor Freeman 21:27

Cool. Okay, I want to shift a little bit here. We often talk on the show about the sort of relationship between energy and society and communities. So what are some community benefits from marine renewable projects. Is this something that sort of has community ownership over it? Does the community get involved in these projects? Tell us a little bit about how that impacts kind of that local level?

Elisa Obermann 21:52

Yeah, I would say, from what we've seen so far, and this is just with, you know, very early demonstration projects, is that the local supply chain has benefited a lot. So there's been some studies showing that for both tidal and wave projects, you would be using probably about 60% local supply chain to build the project. And that's also just because the technology is massive, like you're not going to be shipping this. It's more cost effective to have most of the work done close to the site. And so as an example, again, Bay of Fundy projects that force to date, and the, you know, the research that force has been doing, and some of the R and D, I believe they've, they've used up to 500 local suppliers, or Canadian suppliers, so that's one of the biggest ones. But also just with local communities, there's been a number of things that we've also seen where they've been very engaged in some of these projects. I mean, obviously local businesses have but there are opportunities for local ownership. I think that the challenge right now is that there's still a lot of risk because the technologies aren't as mature as some others, and so some communities are more hesitant to buy into the projects. That said, there is a project in British Columbia, the Yuquot Wave Energy Project, where the Mowachaht/Muchalaht First Nation there is partnering very closely with a wave energy developer to move ahead with a wave technology that can help power their community. So there's all those kinds of things that I think make it attractive to communities, allows them to have some self sufficiency. And in the case of some of these northern, remote and coastal and indigenous communities, there's also that whole, you know, it's potentially displacing diesel in their community. So that's one of the drivers for them, marine renewables. There's been some, you know, studies around this as well showing that it would actually be lower cost than the diesel fuel that they're using in those communities. So there's that benefit as well.

Trevor Freeman 23:42

Gotcha. Yeah, actually, I've got a question here that I wanted to ask you, and so I'll skip to that one about the impact on especially remote indigenous communities that are not connected to the grid. I've had, actually, a few conversations on this show about how, how we go about helping remote and indigenous communities decarbonize getting off of local diesel generation. Are there other projects you mentioned one? Are there other examples of collaboration here? Do you see this as being sort of a relevant tool for that challenge?

Elisa Obermann 24:12

Yeah. So there's another one that I would also mention that I think is a great example again, University of Victoria in British Columbia had been spearheading what they called, it's the blind channel demonstration center. So Initially it started as working to help a, you know, it was like a remote eco kind of lodge become, you know, fully environmentally friendly, using marine renewables for electricity rather than diesel. But since then, they've actually evolved into more of an initiative to test and demonstrate title technologies there, given that it's a remote location, but working very closely with indigenous partners. And so what I think is cool about that is that it's helping indigenous communities to get involved, but not really requiring them to take on. And know, the risk of financing a project, maintaining a project, but it's giving them the opportunity to get the skills and expertise they would need to eventually, you know, bring Tidal or wave energy into their communities at a, you know, at a later date, when they feel more comfortable with the technology and also learn about how that technology impacts the environment and vice versa. Because I have found with communities like that's one of the things that they're most concerned about, is how, you know, how is this technology going to interact with fish or other marine life or the habitat? And so those kinds of smaller demonstrations really help, especially when they're, you know, hands on, and allow community members to be part of the demonstration.

Trevor Freeman 25:40

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're doing my job for me here, Elisa, you're setting up all my questions perfectly. How does it impact, sort of local marine wildlife? What's the what ecological impact of these we're talking about, fairly complex machinery located in a marine environment. Is there an impact? Has that been studied? Is it comparable it's a sort of a traditional hydro electric dam. What is, what is the impact there?

Elisa Obermann 26:05

So there's been a lot of work in this area, and depending on the location of the project, and that's kind of the caveat I give with us, it can be easier to understand what the impact is. So as an example, in Scotland, I mentioned there's, they've done a lot of work with marine renewables. There's a test center there called the European Marine Energy Center, EMAC, and they have very high flow tidal sites, similar to what we have in Canada. And they're able to use cameras and other equipment to really see exactly what's happening at the site. And so a number of researchers, you know, over the last couple of decades, have been doing environmental monitoring, collecting data, and what we've seen to date is, for the most part, fish and marine life avoid these devices. There's also been research done on electromagnetic fields sound, but I think the biggest concern that people still have is collision with the devices, and what could happen there. Now, coming to Canada, we're in a bit of a different situation. So at the forest site in the Bay of Fundy, you know, there has been quite a bit of environmental monitoring and research done, but the water is very different than what you'd see in Scotland. At this site EMAC, where in the Bay of Fundy, there's a lot of sediment. It's very it's a higher flow site even. So there's, you know, a lot of turbulence, and the environmental monitoring equipment there that you know that exists, it just can't gather all of that information at the site like you can't use a camera and see exactly where fish may be going. So we can't say 100% no, there has been no, you know, fish collisions. What has been happening is that force and government of Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia, and I think also indigenous partners and some of the local researchers in Nova Scotia. So Acadia University, for example, have been partnering, and just recently announced a project to be able to develop those environmental monitoring systems that can work in the Bay of Fundy. And so those will be something, you know, once that's solved, that knowledge and those systems and that technology can be used anywhere in the world to give us a better idea of exactly what are those environmental interactions. But I will say to date, the body of research does show that there hasn't been any significant interactions at this point, but I'm always hesitant to say there hasn't been any, because we can't say that yet.

Trevor Freeman 28:21

Yeah, sure, fair enough. It kind of raises another question in my mind about even just servicing the equipment, or the longevity of the equipment. I mean, in a in a solar field, if you've got a bad panel, you go and you change a panel. A wind turbine, at the very least, is above ground. Not that it's easy to change a blade on a turbine. But what is it like servicing and maintaining the equipment when it's out in a marine environment and underwater? How easy is it? Or is that a challenge?

Elisa Obermann 28:51

Yeah, it's a very good point. It's definitely more challenging than onshore technologies, because you also have, you know, weather windows. So with Tidal, for example, even though you know what stage of the tide is in, plays a huge role in when they can go out and maintain or and service the equipment. And so that's one of the reasons these technologies bring in higher cost for the project overall. Obviously. The other thing I would also mention is just that with both tidal and wave like just depending on what if it's a floating technology versus seabed mounted also makes a difference. So what we've seen is some of these technologies are now evolving to be floating, and again, one of the reasons for that is this whole operations and maintenance piece, because it's obviously a lot easier to bring a vessel out there, get onto the pontoon and be able to service it, versus a whole diving operation, or ROV to go underwater to service it.

Trevor Freeman 29:48

Gotcha, yeah, tow it back to the dock and work on it at the dock.

Elisa Obermann 29:51

Yeah, awesome, exactly.

Trevor Freeman 29:52

Okay, let's switch gears a little bit here and talk about the policy, and let's say regulatory. Worry landscape around this. I've got a question here on funding coming up too, but as our listeners will know, and as you certainly know, energy is a very regulated sector, lots of policy around it. What are some of the policy challenges? Or are there policy challenges when it comes to deploying marine renewables?

Elisa Obermann 30:20

Yeah, I would say, because they're emerging technology, that's actually been one of the biggest challenges. So when we look at legislation in Canada, I mean, it never a lot of it's very old, right? So it never envisioned that there'd be these clean technologies coming up in the market that would they would need to govern and regulate. We have had a lot of challenges with the Fisheries Act, again, just because of that, it never envisioned that it would be regulating an emerging technology. And so, I mean, luckily with that, we did a lot of work with federal and provincial governments, and we have found a path forward that had been an issue in terms of, like the regulatory barriers being created by the legislation. The other one, I would say, is just these projects are small at the moment, right? So we're talking kilowatts, maybe a couple megawatts. And what we found is the, you know, just the regulatory efficiency is not necessarily there. So applying regulation will look at it just as the same scale as any type of project, you know, could be a very large project. So I think what you know, we would ask is that regulators consider the scale of the project and the regulatory processes and requirements should balance that scale of the project, you know, with what the requirements are.

Trevor Freeman 31:34

Yeah. Do you see a world where I'm gonna assume the answer is yes to this, but I'm gonna ask anyway, do you see a world where this is just another option that utilities and energy policy makers have in their toolbox as a way to procure clean energy, that this just becomes one of an item on the menu with solar and wind, et cetera? Are we gonna get to that point? Do you see that happening in the sort of near, medium term future.

Elisa Obermann 32:01

I think we can get to that point. But what it's going to require is that there are more deployments, more demonstrations, and regulators will really need to look at those early projects of exactly that demonstrations, and not treat them as commercial projects. And the reason I say this is because to get costs down so that they can be looked at in comparison to onshore and solar, we need to see a lot more deployment like when you think of a cost curve for any technology, you have to get to that scale and volume before the costs start coming down. It's some time before we get to that point, but it's absolutely possible. It just requires the right supports.

Trevor Freeman 32:38

Got you. On the funding side. We talked about this a little bit earlier, about how you're kind of using existing funding programs. There aren't necessarily dedicated programs for this kind of technology or these projects. Are there other funding sources, like, are you attracting investors into this? Is there, you know, more public money going into this? What's the funding structure around some of these projects?

Elisa Obermann 33:02

Yeah, so, I think to date, a lot of developers have and when I say developers, I mean the technology and project developers. But with marine renewables, sometimes it ends up being one in the same, because technology developers end up being the ones developing their projects. I think a lot of them are looking for two things at this time, so something to cover capital costs. So grants, whatever it might be, and there has, there have been a number of funding programs that the federal government has applied that have been quite useful for that, and then they usually look for something on the back end of the project once it's built. So what I mean by that is feed in tariff, something to help with their return on investment. And that seems to be kind of the right recipe for investment certainty at the moment, the other thing that I think Canada's recently done that's very helpful for this sector are the investment tax credits. And so our hope is actually that those get extended, because right now, where the sector is, and this also comes into play for offshore wind, is that they end, you know, in that 2033 timeline, 2034 I can't remember, whereas a lot of these projects wouldn't be online at that point. And so we're looking for a bit of a longer runway there. And I think tax credits are a very good tool that can help, you know, with attracting investment for these projects.

Trevor Freeman 34:16

So looking ahead, I mean, you've kind of touched on this in a few different spots, but to sum it up, what's next on the horizon for this technology and these projects? Are we expecting kind of innovation on the technological side, or is the focus still on the sort of funding and regulatory side right now? What can we expect for those of us who are going to maybe keep an eye on this moving forward?

Elisa Obermann 34:40

Yeah, it's a bit of both, I will say. So I mentioned that the tidal sector was having some challenges with the Fisheries Act a number of years ago, and that really kind of created a lull in development, but also in investment attraction. As a result of that, federal and provincial governments established a Tidal Task Force to. Look at the exact issues around you know, where the barriers are with the Fisheries Act, and then the outcome of that has been a new path under the Fisheries Act to support projects. And so there are developers that will be going through that new or revised, staged approach, is what they've been calling it. Time will tell, obviously, if that process works, but from what we've heard from developers, it does give them more certainty, because it essentially covers the entire project, rather than going through a device by device by device approach. And so that's on the regulatory side. I think if that goes well, it will give a lot of confidence to private sector and developers that this can move ahead, but it will also ensure that regulators know that they have an approach that is working, but still having those safeguards to ensure that you know they're protecting the environment and safety of communities and others on the technology side. So it's kind of like they go together hand in hand. So I mean, once we get through that process, I think there'll be more deployments, and we'll see the ability to test more technologies improve them. But to date, and where we are with especially with tidal energy, think the technologies are in, you know, they're in further generation. So we're not first generation technology anymore, and they've come a long way, and some of that's been through deployments and demonstration in other countries, Scotland, for example. So what I would envision happening is seeing some of those technologies tested in Canada, and then being able to, you know, deploy more than one and then, you know, multi device development.

Trevor Freeman 36:31

Great. One fine, maybe final question, although I keep thinking of things as we talk here, but you know, obviously this is very focused on coastal regions. You've mentioned, BC and sort of Nova Scotia where you're based. Do you envision, especially on the river side of things? Do you envision this as a technology that can be deployed kind of even in the interior provinces? Like, are we going to see river marine renewables in Saskatchewan, for example, or Ontario, where I'm based? Like, are you having those conversations? Or are we like, we're not quite ready for that yet, because we're still working on the technology piece.

Elisa Obermann 37:03

Yeah, I'm so glad that you asked that, because that's part I actually have missed in some of this. So there have been river current technologies deployed in Manitoba already. So the University of Manitoba has the Canadian hydro kinetic turbine Test Center. I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but they have been working with a number of river current developers. They've had several successful demonstrations. And there are also some companies that are that have been members of ours, that have deployed in other areas of Canada as well. In the past, even in Quebec, there's been some deployments. And so I think when it comes to river, you know, one of the challenges is there's, well, it's not a challenge. There's a huge opportunity there. It's just not very well known. And there are things like the ice, I think people are concerned about it being potentially closer to shore, just like the navigational issues, things like that, fish passage is different than what you'd see in tidal so there hasn't been as much of a focus on that. So it's earlier stage in terms of kind of that some of those environmental and social questions, but the technology is, you know, very close to where you'd see title at this point.

Trevor Freeman 38:12

Got you very cool we have so as our listeners know, I work for Hydro Ottawa, and Hydro Ottawa, parent company, owns the run-of-the-river generation dam here, right in the center of Ottawa, Chaudière Falls, and it's really fascinating. Now, it's not the same technology, of course. It's a it's a run of the river gravity fed dam, but the complexity around so the North American eel is an endangered species that's particularly impacted by dams and the technologies that we've had to put in place for that. It's really fascinating. Just kind of, I'm rambling a bit here, but all the different pieces that come together to make what should be a fairly straightforward thing, like use water to spin turbine, it's so much more complex than that. So I can appreciate that as you branch out into new areas, new technologies or new deployments of that, all those new complexities have to be figured out and worked on. But glad to hear that that's in the future, that that's on the horizon, because I think this is great, and it'd be cool to see more of this.

Elisa Obermann 39:08

Yeah, agreed. We're hoping we're getting there. It's taken time. I think things haven't gone as quickly as we had hoped. But you know, there's been a lot of learnings, lessons learned that have fed into where we are now, and I think just with what we're seeing, you know, with with government support, but also communities getting more excited about it, we'll see some real progress in the coming years.

Trevor Freeman 39:30

Okay, Elisa, we always wrap up our interviews with a series of questions to our guests. Some people love them, some people feel like they're on the hot seat, but I'm going to dive in anyway and fire these at you. So what is a book that you've read recently that you think everyone should read?

Elisa Obermann 39:45

Haven't read this one recently, but it kind of changed my thinking on everything. And I loved it, "Sapiens", I thought was great just with kind of the, you know, the history of humankind, and just made me rethink a lot of the things that. In terms of how society is structured and why we do the things that we do. Thought it was great, and if people haven't read it, I would highly recommend,

Trevor Freeman 40:06

Yes, very cool. That's a great book, and you're not the first one to mention that on the show. That's awesome. So same question. But for a movie or a show.

Elisa Obermann 40:14

There's probably a few that I would recommend, but really, I think the one that struck me the most recently, and I haven't watched a lot of movies recently, so I'll also say that, but just in the past couple years, was "Barbie". I loved it. It actually surprised me that, like, I had this totally different impression of what it was going to be, and just the kind of, you know, the key messages and things that it brought out, I thought were great. Like it was, it was very well done.

Trevor Freeman 40:38

Yeah, absolutely. It was one of those kind of cultural things that which seemed like it was going to be just another movie, and then there was some buzz behind it. And it got to the point where we, like, we did a family outing to go and, like, watch that movie with our kids, who were kind of at about the age where they can start thinking about some of these things. So it was pretty fun.

Elisa Obermann 40:56

Yeah, we did the same. We all wore pink. We really got on the bandwagon. I but it's great because as adults, you know, there were some really important things in it, but then also kids could relate, like it was a fun movie for them. So, yeah, it was good.

Trevor Freeman 41:09

Yeah, absolutely. My kids spent a long time, and still it'll come up singing the I'm Just Ken song that happens around our house often that song comes up, which, you know, wears on you after a while. Okay, so it sounds like you travel a little bit. So if someone offers you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Elisa Obermann 41:28

There's lots of places I would like to go, but I think probably Greece is where I would choose to go. I mean, I've been to Europe quite a bit for work and just also, you know, for fun. But my daughter has been saying for a really long time that she wants to go to Greece. She's only 10, so I've also kind of wondered where she got this idea, but I've also always wanted to go. So I think that would be my, my first choice.

Trevor Freeman 41:51

Very cool. I my wife and I honeymooned in Greece. It's a long time ago, but we had had a great time. It's gorgeous.

Elisa Obermann 41:56

Oh, amazing.

Trevor Freeman 41:58

Who is someone that you admire?

Elisa Obermann 41:59

That would probably be one of the tougher ones of these questions. Well, I'll say so generally, when I think about this kind of question, it's like, what are the kind of characteristics or qualities of someone that I would admire? And so I often look at how other women are, you know, conducting themselves, working in business world or in politics or whatnot. And I think what I admire most in some of those women is just the fact that they lift other women up. They're not afraid to be who they are and take a stand on things they really believe in. I think something I also really admire are women that are willing to take risks to build their business, and also in times of you know, where there's challenges or conflicts taking the high road. And so with all that said, you know, when I think about this, and I don't know if this sounds too cliche, but I think Michelle Obama's great, like when she said, 'When they go low, you go high', I just thought that was such an important message. And I actually share that with my daughter all the time when she's having trouble in school. I'm like, think of it this way. So she is a woman that I really admire. I think she's just done some wonderful things for women and just for people in general.

Trevor Freeman 43:08

Yeah, absolutely. And again, you're not the first one to mention that on the show, and I don't think that's because it's cliche. I think it's because you're right, absolutely fascinating person and leader, and just the strength of character is very evident, for sure. So, yeah, great answer. So final question, what's something about the energy sector that you're particularly excited about?

Elisa Obermann 43:29

Well, I would say, I mean, things are moving quite quickly, but also not never quick enough, yeah, and, but I think we have a lot to be excited about. So when I think about when I started my career in the energy sector, we were literally just starting to talk about renewable energy like it was a new thing, and things have evolved quite a bit since then, obviously, but in Atlantic Canada, where I'm based, so I'm in Nova Scotia, one of the things we've seen just in the past number of years has been An incredible evolution to a lot of projects being indigenous owned, indigenous LED. And I just think that's amazing so, you know, and I think that's going to continue. And it just shows, you know, that these communities are taking a lead. They're interested in ensuring that we're using clean energy, and it's also empowering them to, you know, have that ownership be able to provide investment to these projects, but it's been a big change. And so what I'm looking forward to, I guess, is what I'm saying here is that that continues, and we see more indigenous led projects, more indigenous participation in those projects, whether it be ownership, but also we've been actually working with a lot of indigenous businesses and suppliers that can get involved. And I think that will really change the energy sector. Actually, it's a lot different model from what we thought about, you know, few decades ago.

Trevor Freeman 44:49

Yeah, absolutely, I think. And again, it comes up so often on the show, the idea that there's the technological side of energy, but the societal side, and that interaction with the actual. Well stakeholders in local communities and indigenous communities. And you know, the people who are most impacted by this from a usage of energy perspective, but also a production and generation perspective. And of course, the in between, which is the transmission and distribution side of things, that's where the really interesting stories happen, and the opportunities for better collaboration and improving how we do things certainly happen. So I'm totally on the same page as you.

Elisa Obermann 45:25

Yeah, I think at the end, I always think of this like everything in the end is about people so and there's that factor that we we sometimes lose in all of this, but in the end, it comes down to the people who are involved or impacted.

Trevor Freeman 45:38

Absolutely. Elisa, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. It's been great to learn more about this sector, which doesn't have enough attention on it. So happy to kind of have you explain to us and talk us through some of the exciting things that are happening. Really appreciate it.

Elisa Obermann 45:52

Yeah, no. Thank you so much for the opportunity and the time. And like you said, a lot of people don't know about the sector, so I really appreciate the you know, the time spent with you to chat a little more about it. Thank you

Trevor Freeman 46:02

For sure. We'll check back in, maybe in a year or two, and see kind of how, how far things have come.

Elisa Obermann 46:07

Yeah, that'd be great. I'd appreciate that.

Trevor Freeman 46:09

Awesome. Thanks. Elisa, take care.

Elisa Obermann 46:11

Thank you.

Trevor Freeman 46:13

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review, it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Hydropower is one of the oldest sources of renewable energy, powering Canada's first electric lights in 1881 and providing clean energy to six out of ten homes and businesses today. Ontario's north leads its next chapter. Trevor sums up how new hydro projects with First Nations transform remote communities, reduce diesel reliance, and support reconciliation. With billions invested in refurbishing plants and expanding the grid, it's a story of clean energy, collaboration, and Canada's sustainable future.

Related links

● Electrifying Canada's remote communities with QUEST Canada (thinkenergy episode 143): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/

● Watay Power Project: https://www.wataypower.ca/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa

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-

Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back to think energy. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, and today we're shifting our lens to the north. Across North America, we are seeing a resurgence of hydro power, and that includes here in Ontario, where I'm located, this province is looking to this long standing generation method to power Canada's growing and energy starved northern communities first. Let's take a quick look back at history. Canada's first electric lights were actually powered by hydro power. Back in 1881 a small hydro electricity plant in Sherbrooke, Quebec lit up the night and sparked a clean energy story that's still unfolding today, from those earliest River power lights to today, where we see more than 200 hydro stations generating over 60% of Canada's electricity and about 90% of our renewable power. Hydro power remains backbone of our clean energy system and powers six out of 10 homes and businesses. It's reliable, it's cost effective, and unlike solar wind, which can be intermittent, water, provides a steady stream of power pretty much 24/7 some plants have even been operating for more than a century. But according to water power Canada, because we've been relying on this source for so long, there is actually a lot of untapped potential that can be realized by refurbishing and modernizing our older facilities, not to mention developing new ones. We could significantly expand clean capacity, which would help us move closer to our net zero goals. As I've said before on the show, we need every tool in the toolbox, and expanding hydro power is one of those tools. So let's have a look at the North American resurgence of hydropower across the continent, there is a renewed focus on this source as a stable, long term solution to rising energy demand. Even the tech sector is taking notice. In July 2025 Google announced a $3 billion deal to secure hydro power from two US facilities in Pennsylvania through Brookfield asset management. It is the largest corporate clean energy agreement of its kind, which is a signal of how essential reliable renewable power has become. In this digital age, we need something to power these giant AI data centers, and these corporations are looking for something that's reliable and clean. The hydropower sites will be upgraded and relicensed under the agreement, and Google also intends to expand the deal into other regions of the US, Midwest and mid Atlantic, where it's investing $25 billion in new data centers. This deal signals a shift in corporate energy procurement, from simply buying renewable energy credits to offset their emissions to directly investing in specific, large scale, long duration infrastructure deals to power businesses. Of course, this definitely raises questions about the implications for how the grid and energy markets may evolve as demand in the tech and business sector continues to change and grow. That's something we'll explore at a different time. While Google's deal is driven by data and growth. Ontario's story is being shaped by geography, reconciliation and regional development. So let's have a look to the north. Like we said we would when electricity grids were first built, many northern and remote communities were left out because connecting them wasn't seen as practical or affordable. I talked about this with Gemma Pinchon from Quest Canada about a year ago on this show. Have a listen if you haven't already. With small populations spread across vast distances, it was considered too costly to run transmission lines that far north. So while the rest of the country was plugged into their provincial grids, many of these communities were left to rely on local diesel generation, a decision that might have made economic sense at the time, but definitely isn't equitable and not great for the environment. Thankfully, we're seeing some movement in this area. New investments and partnerships are changing how energy is produced and shared, and Ontario is turning once again, to our water power routes, but this time, it's doing it differently. This year, the Ontario government announced several new partnerships with First Nations that are changing the way clean energy projects take shape, emphasizing shared ownership, community leadership and lasting local benefits. New hydro developments in the north are being co created with First Nations who've lived alongside these rivers for generations. So let's have a look at some specifics. In July, the province announced plans for two new large scale hydro electric stations in northern Ontario, the Nine Mile rapids project on the Abitibi River and the Grand Rapids project on the Mattagami. Together, these could generate up to 430 megawatts of clean electricity that's enough to power. Nearly half a million homes. This is the province first large scale expansion of hydro electricity facilities in decades. What makes these projects truly historic is who's at the table. The stations will be co developed with the Taykwa Tagamu Nation and the Moose Cree First Nation, marking a shift towards shared ownership and long term community benefit. It's a model of collaboration that intertwines energy expansion with economic reconciliation, and this is just part of a larger effort. Ontario has also committed $4.7 billion to refurbish and expand existing hydro electric facilities across the province, from Northern Ontario to Niagara Cornwall and all the way out east. Together, these upgrades could add another 5000 megawatts of reliable clean power. It's a move that fits squarely within Ontario's long term plan to meet rising demand in the north with reliable low carbon power. The IESO, our system operator, predicts northern Ontario's demand for electricity will increase by 81% by 2050, higher than the provincial average. Of course, generating electricity is only half the story, as we've talked about before. It needs to reach the people in the industries that need it to make that happen, Ontario is working with transmission partners to build 1000s of kilometers of new power lines across the north. A prime example is Watay Power, the largest indigenous led grid connection project in Ontario's history. It's 1800 kilometers of transmission lines will connect more than 18,000 people across 16 remote First Nation communities to the provincial grid for the first time, ending decades of dependence on diesel. These grid expansions are also laying the groundwork for future economic development, especially in the mineral rich Ring of Fire region. The province recently signed a 39 and a half million dollar community partnership agreement with the Wabequie First Nation to support infrastructure early works and an all season road that will unlock access to critical minerals essential for EV batteries and clean technologies. Hopefully, this is a sign that we're seeing a real shift in how Canada views its north, not just as a remote region, but as a cornerstone of the country's future. The federal government is linking energy development, mining and national security in a way that we haven't seen in decades. There's renewed investment in hydro and transmission projects, plans to tap into critical minerals for the clean economy and a growing military infrastructure to reinforce sovereignty in the Arctic. It's all part of a bigger effort to power the north, protect it and ensure the communities who live there share the benefits of its growth. So what does all this mean? Ontario's investments aren't just about electricity. They're about sovereignty, sustainability and self determination. They represent a vision for Canada's north, where the local power generation, indigenous leadership and economic opportunity grow together. Still, there are important questions ahead that we'll all be watching. How will the province balance clean growth with ecological protection? How can partnerships ensure that the benefits of these projects are lasting and equitable for both the province and First Nations leading this work on their own traditional lands? In the end, the real energy transformation isn't just about megawatts. It's also about connection and making sure that we're smart about how we grow and expand our grid and our communities. Thanks for checking in. We'll chat next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think =energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Trevor reconnects with his former professor, Dr. Rupp Carriveau from the University of Windsor, to explore how Southern Ontario's agriculture and energy sectors intersect. From powering greenhouses and managing massive industrial demand to reimagining aging wind farms and testing "atomic agriculture," together they unpack how innovation, AI, and new tech are reshaping Canada's clean energy future. Listen to episode 164 of thinkenery.

Related links

• Dr. Rupp Carriveau on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rupp-carriveau-b4273823/
• Environmental Energy Institute: https://www.environmentalenergyinstitute.com/
• Turbulence and Energy Lab: http://www.turbulenceandenergylab.org/

• Offshore Energy and Storage Society: https://www.osessociety.com/

• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa

Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. Today's episode brings us back to a few elements of my own personal history. Now you'll have to bear with me for a minute or two while I dive into my past in order to properly set up today's conversation, I grew up in southwestern Ontario, in and just outside the border town of Windsor, Ontario. Now for those of you not familiar with this area, Windsor and its surroundings are the most southern part of Canada. It might surprise you to know that Windsor is at the same latitude as Northern California and Rome, Italy. You can imagine that after growing up in Windsor and then living in various places around the globe, when I finally settled down here in Ottawa, adjusting to the more stereotypical Canadian winters of this northern capital, took a little bit of getting used to Windsor is so far south when you cross the border to its neighboring American city, Detroit, Michigan, you actually travel north. Have a look at a map if this seems to defy logic, but I promise you, it's true. This is the area that I grew up in. It's also where I went to school and got my engineering degree. More on that in a minute. Now, if you've ever driven down to the southwestern end of the 401 going past London and Chatham, you will notice two things. First, it is flat, very flat. You will not see a meaningful Hill anywhere in sight. I often joke with people that I used to toboggan when we did get any meaningful snow off of highway overpasses, because that was the only hill we could find. I was only partly joking, and I have indeed tobogganed off of said overpasses in my young and foolish days. But that is a story for another time. That brings us to the second thing you'll see, which is wind turbines. A lot of wind turbines. They are seemingly everywhere, stretching as far as you can see, southwestern Ontario is a hotbed of wind energy generation. Finally, a hint at why I'm going on about this part of the province on an energy podcast. But before we get into it, there's one other thing to touch on, and that is the fact that this area is also home to a large number of greenhouses growing produce year-round, as well as manufacturing. Windsor and its surrounding area is the automotive capital of Canada, with a number of plants from major car companies, as well as a supporting ecosystem of parts manufacturers. Incidentally, that's where I started my career, working as an environmental engineer for one of the automakers, and many members of my family have also worked or still work in that industry. The reason I bring up greenhouses in the auto industry is because they have some very high energy demand profiles, and that is how we get for me going on nostalgically about the area I grew up in, to our conversation today, I recently caught up with one of my engineering professors, Dr Rupp Carriveau, about the work that he and his colleagues have been doing that ties all of this together. And I thought it would be great to have him on the show to talk about that. Dr. Carriveau is the director of the Environmental Energy Institute and co-director of the Turbulence and Energy Lab and the CO lead of AGUwin at the University of Windsor. Back in the day, he was my fluid dynamics professor. But today, he balances his teaching duties with research into energy systems futures and advanced agricultural systems. He is a founder of the offshore energy and storage society, a recipient of the University Scholar Award, and has been named to Canada's clean 50 for his contributions to clean capitalism. Dr Rupp Carriveau, welcome to the show.

Dr Rupp Carriveau 03:59

Trevor, great to be here. Thanks.

Trevor Freeman 04:01

Yeah. So, Rupp, the last time we chatted, well, so you and I chatted a couple weeks ago, but before that, the last time that you and I interacted, I was in third year university. You were my fluid dynamics Prof. So, in addition to your professorial duties, you're now the director of the environmental Energy Institute at the University of Windsor. So, there's two questions around that. First off, how did you end up going from my fluid dynamics prof a number of years ago, probably close to 20 years ago now, to running this institute? And tell us a little bit about what the Institute does.

Dr Rupp Carriveau 04:40

Sure. Though. So, thanks. Yeah, and very memorable Trevor, because I, you know, I remember you well. And, yeah, that was, that was a very nice class that we had. I remember, well, I remember your colleagues too.

Trevor Freeman 04:54

If there's one thing I do, well, it's, it's be memorable, and you can take that however you want.

Dr Rupp Carriveau 04:58

That is, that is. Something to be said for that. Yeah, thanks for that question. So I should point out that in addition to EEI, I am a co-director in the Turbulence and Energy Lab, which is really where all of the EEI initiatives have started from, that's a lab that I co supervise with Dr David Ting in mechanical engineering and the nuts and bolts, the very serious engineering side of things, comes out of the Turbulence and Energy Lab. EEI kind of came about to handle topics that were, frankly speaking, less interesting to Dr Ting. So, things that push more, a little bit more into policy wider systems looks at things as opposed to, you know, pure thermodynamics and energy efficiency type pursuits, which underpin a lot of the EEI policy pieces, but are sort of beyond the scope of what turbulence and energy lab does. So those two things, and then more recently, actually, I'm co lead on, AGUwin, which is like a center of excellence, emerging Center of Excellence at the University of Windsor. So, Agriculture U Windsor is a group of about 40 professors that do work in agriculture in some shape or form. And we've, we've, we've taken to organizing that movement in seeking sort of group funding proposals, developing curriculum and organized sort of platforms to help industry in agriculture. And it's, it's really taking off, which I'm really excited about my extremely hard-working colleagues and CO lead, Isabel Barrett-Ng, she in particular, has been really driving a lot of really cool initiatives ahead and all the people that work with us. So, yeah, lots, lots happening at the University since I saw you last. But you know, time has a way of helping with that, people find ways to find efficiencies and get to do and build on, build on, hopefully incremental progress.

Trevor Freeman 07:08

Yeah, very cool. And you're teasing a few of the areas our conversation is going to go today, that sort of intersection between agriculture and obviously, this is an energy podcast, and so how does agriculture and the way we're moving in with agriculture impacts energy and vice versa. So, we're definitely going to get to that in a minute, I think, for our listeners that are not familiar with Southern Ontario, and I haven't talked about Southern Ontario on the podcast a lot, but people that know me know I will gladly talk about what goes on in the very southern part of our country. It's where I grew up. Help us paint a picture of what Southern Ontario is like. So, in the context of energy, what makes this area of Ontario unique?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 07:50

Well, it's that's a really good question, and I'm glad you phrased it that way, because I think it gets taken for granted. And also, folks, folks don't know energy isn't in the headlines every day, and if it is, it's not a headline that everybody pays attention to. But the southwestern Ontario region, if you take the 401 west of London, you'll start to see a high concentration of wind. So, there's a significant wind corridor in the region, and that's because it's very flat, so the whole area used to be a lake bed, and so we have very fertile agricultural lands as a result of that. And we also have very few obstacles to fetch, which is a huge aspect of how wind carries over the lakes, and is, you know, not, not obstructed. And so it's like you have offshore resources onshore, which is completely ideal. Also, we have, as it may be, we have massive natural gas resources in the area, in sort of the subterranean space of Devonian reefs for natural gas storage. We have natural gas generation facilities down around the Windsor area that help with provincial peaking and there is some solar in the region, because it is the Leamington Kingsville area is referred to as the sun parlor of Ontario. And as a result, we have a lot of under glass agriculture there, which benefits, obviously, directly from solar resources. And then we have solar photovoltaic that takes advantage of that sun as well. So there's, there's a lot happening here energy wise.

Trevor Freeman 09:38

Yeah, and there's a lot on the demand side of things as well. So, you mentioned the greenhouses, which are an up and coming, you know, source of demand draws on our grid. There's also a big manufacturing base. Talk a little bit about the manufacturing base in the area. Yeah, yeah. And that's that gets into my next question is talking about some of the specific, unique energy needs of greenhouses. I think on the manufacturing side, you know, you mentioned the auto industry and the parts industry that supports it, you're seeing more. There's a battery plant being built now I think that, I think people have a sense of that, but greenhouses are this thing that I think a lot of folks don't think about. So, you talked about the magnitude of the load, the lighting side of things. What else is this like, a 24/7 load? Is this sector growing like? Tell us a little bit about, you know where things are going with greenhouses?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 09:53

Yeah, thanks. So, yeah, I was, I was thinking about generation and, yeah, demand is. Significant we have. You know, Windsor has laid claim to Canada's automotive capital, and while I'm biased, I'd like to think it still is. And so we have significant manufacturing around the automotive industry, either automotive OEMs or tier one parts makers that have significant draws. We have Stellantis. Every minivan comes out of this area has come out of this area. The electric Dodge Charger comes out of this area. But there are engine plants for Ford, but they're also now, you know, sort of next generation transport technologies. You've talking about battery manufacturing. So, there's an enormous LG consortium with Stellantis here that's doing battery manufacturing. And so, these are huge loads that that add to existing and growing loads in the greenhouse space, which, again, I'll just mention it now, is something that isn't well understood. And we did a, we did a study for the province a couple years, three, four years ago. Now, I think grid Innovation Fund project that looked at sort of really getting into granular detailing of the loads that come with a lit greenhouse. A lot of people don't appreciate that a lit greenhouse, when switched on, depending on the lighting technology, depending on how it's used, can be like a 50-megawatt load, which is a significant load. And just imagine that's one so they can come on quickly, and they are non-trivial, significant loads. And so, this is something that we looked at trying to develop distributed energy resource sort of solutions for, because, simply speaking, you can't put up a new transmission line overnight, and we don't want to economically constrain the growth of the sector. Sure, yeah. I mean, it's, it's not a simple thing to characterize, because what you can take away from this is that these greenhouse developers are business dynamos, and frankly speaking, many of them do very well, because they're very good at what they do, and with the resources they have, they can largely do what they want. And if, if the infrastructure isn't there, they will build it so. So, you'll have folks that are operating off the grid, essentially not off the gas grid, of course, but they're using gas for cogeneration purposes, to produce heat for their crops, but also the electricity for their lights. So that is one aspect of it that further complicates how to figure out what these loads on the grid will be. But for the most part, of course, the grid provides quite clean and quite affordable electricity in the province, and you know where they can they want to be able to connect to the grid. Now, lights are designed to extend the growing day and extend the growing season as well. So, in terms of when they're switched on and how they're switched on, that is highly variable, and that is also something that is, I would say, in development, folks are looking at different ways to use intermittent lighting to be conscious of when peaking happens. It is dispatchable in a way, in that some growers are able to turn their lights off to avoid, you know, peaking charges. But again, there's a lot to manage. And, and it's, it's very complicated, both on the grid side and, and for the greenhouse grower.

Trevor Freeman 14:38

Yeah, so you mentioned natural gas for cogen for heating as well. So, as we look to decarbonize all different aspects of the sector, we talk often on the show of what are the specific areas where decarbonization might be challenging. Is, is greenhouses one of those areas? And, and what are the options available for heating these spaces? Like, is it realistic to think that there's an electric solution here, or what? What's happening in that sector related to decarbonization?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 15:10

Again, you've hit on a real sort of hot button issue for the for the sector, the trouble with natural gas is that it's spectacular. Oh, it's storable. It's dispatchable. It's a triple threat for greenhouses in the best way possible, because you can make your heat, you can make your electricity, and the plants crave CO2, and that comes out of the flue gas on the other side of the combustion reaction. So, you know, when you swing in there and you say, Oh, I've got this great new solution. It's called hydrogen. We'll burn hydrogen and we won't have these nasty CO2 release. And they're like, Okay, who's going to replace my CO2? So, it's a difficult fuel to displace. Now, admittedly, people understand that, you know, that's where we really need to go. And is, is electric? You know, electrification the path. So, people talk about, people talk about heat pumps, people talk about electric boilers. And then, as I mentioned, people talked about, you know, we've, we've also looked at the idea of blending hydrogen into a natural gas feed for existing infrastructure to, you know, because, because not all of the CO2, that is, you know, released is, is taken down by the plants. And so could you get to a magic blend where it's just the amount of CO2 that you need is what goes into the other side, and then there's nothing left after the plants take what they need. So, there's a lot of things that are being looked at. It is again, a challenging space to operate in, because it's highly competitive. Getting really granular. Data is very sensitive, because this, this, this is a, you know, it's a game of margins, and it's in its high stakes production. So to get in there and sort of be in the way is, is difficult. So, this work is being done. We're participating in a lot of this work. We just finished a study for the province, a Hydrogen Innovation Fund study on looking at the integration of hydrogen into the greenhouse space. And it was, it was pretty revelatory for us.

Trevor Freeman 17:36

So is the exhaust from burning natural gas on site. Does that get recycled through the greenhouse and therefore captured to some degree? Do we know how much you kind of hinted at finding out that sweet spot? Do we know how much of that gets captured?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 17:53

Yeah, so the short answer is yes. So, they have the cogen engines have scrubbers on them, and these, these machines are spectacularly capable of being tuned the combustion and the professionals that operate them at the greenhouse facilities are artists, and that they can get the sort of combustion profile a certain way, and so that that flue gas will go into the greenhouse, but to know exactly how much is being taken down, that is an area of active research, and we don't, we don't know that answer yet. There are people that are looking at it, and you can imagine it's kind of a provocative number for the sector. So, they're being very careful about how they do it.

Trevor Freeman 18:36

I'm sure, I'm sure. Okay, let's, let's park that just for a minute here, and jump back to something you mentioned earlier. You talked about one how flat Southern Ontario is, and it took me leaving, leaving the county before I really knew what skiing and tobogganing and everything else was. So, there's a lot of wind power generation. And for anyone listening, yeah, as rip mentioned, if you ever drive down the 401 going towards Windsor, you'll just start to see these massive wind turbines kind of everywhere you look. So, help us understand how these turbines, you know, you look out over a field and you see, you know, 2030, of them more in your line of sight. How do they connect to our provincial grid? How do the contracts work? Like, who gets that power? Give us a little bit of a sense of how that works.

Dr Rupp Carriveau 19:28

For sure. Yeah, well, so what most people don't realize, and again, it's not something that's talked about, and if it is, I don't know people are necessarily paying attention to it, but, but you know the comment I'll get from relatives we talked about Thanksgiving. So, you know people, because they know I'm a wind person, they'll be like, 'Hey, I was driving down the road and I saw they weren't spinning with, what's going on? Are they broken or what?' Well, you know, because we, we've got some pro wind and some non pro wind folks in the in the family, so it's an exciting time for me. But you know, and I mentioned that the greenhouses I'm working with are often starved for utility supply. And they said, well, how can that be? The turbines are right there. They're sharing the same space, right? And most people don't realize that. Really, I would say 95% of the wind in our corridor is put on a transmission line and sent up to, effectively, to Toronto, to be distributed throughout the province, which is great, but it's not really a local asset. And that was sort of what inspired us when we saw these two sorts of juxtaposed. We thought maybe you could turn these assets into something that acted as really a new type of distributed energy resource, and that you've got a transmission connected asset that's currently under contract, but if that contract could be modified, then the fiscal connections could potentially be modified so you could have local distribution, let's say at a time of maybe at a time of transmission curtailment, maybe under different conditions. So again, looking into the physical plausibility of it was part of our study, and then doing some sort of economic investigation of how that would work, having a nearly 20-year-old asset all of a sudden springing into a new role in a new life, where it continues to perform transmission duties for the province at large, but it also serves local needs in the production, let's say, of hydrogen through an electrolyzer, or just plain electrons turning lights on. That is something that isn't possible yet. Regulatory reasons exist for that that would require some, some significant changes. But it was a really interesting exercise to go through to investigate how that could happen.

Trevor Freeman 22:08

Yeah, so there's just trying to understand how this work. There's someone who owns these turbines. Some conglomerate somewhere, you know, Canadian, not Canadian, who knows. They contract with the Independent Electricity System Operator who operates the grid in the province. And they basically say, yeah, well, look, we'll provide you with X amount of power on some contract, and when ISO needs it, they call on it. How long do those contracts last? Is that a 10-year contract? A 20-year contract?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 22:35

So, they are in Ontario. The ones that I'm familiar with for 20 years. So it's possible there are others. I know. I have a there's a farm that operates in PEI that has a nice 30 year PPA. So the longer you can get, the better. Yeah, and these, these power purchase agreements are, are wonderful for developers, because they're known entities, doing the math on your finances is really straightforward with these contracts. And frankly speaking, when you had a sector that needed to be brought up from nothing, they were very necessary. They were very necessary. And but those contracts, and they're and they're locked down, as much as we try to, you know, persuade the province to get crazy, to amuse us with these new, newfangled ways of of connecting to people, commerce wise, through energy, they are not interested so far, at least in and they're like, let's finish these out, and then we can talk your crazy ideas, you know, and so, but that's we're getting glare, because I would say many, many, many farms in the province will be coming up on the sun setting end of Their power purchase agreements in the coming five, six years.

Trevor Freeman 24:03

Yeah, yeah. Which brings me to my next point, of the assets themselves, the actual physical turbine, I assume last longer than 20 years. You're going to build one of these things. You know, 20 years is not its end of life. So what are the options available today? You talked about regulatory barriers. We talk about regulatory barriers on this show often, what are, what are the options today for a wind farm that is at its end of contract? Does it look at re contracting? Can it kind of direct source to someone else? Like, what are the options available for an owner?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 24:40

Yeah, well, to me, it's an exciting time, because it could be work for us. We get excited about this. I think it could be a source of anxiety for owners, because there's nothing better than that long term contract. So many of them will try to apply for things like a medium, a new medium term length contract from the. Province, like an MT two, I think they're called. There are other contract types that are possible, but there'll be, it'll be a highly competitive landscape for those, and the in the province won't be able to give everyone one of these contracts. So some of these, some of these operators, will likely have to look at other options which may be going into the spot market, potentially, you know, getting into the capacity game by getting a battery on site and firming up their ability to provide power when necessary or provide capacity. And then there's a there isn't a relatively recent regulatory development in the around the middle of July, the province said, you know, if you're a non emitting generator and you're not under contract, you could provide virtual power someone else who might need it, if they're looking if they're a class, a customer that's trying to avoid peak charges. You know, rather than that class a customer buys a battery behind the meter and physically reduce their peaks. They could potentially virtually reduce their peaks by setting up a virtual power purchase agreement with another supplier. So these, these off contract spinning assets could have an opportunity to get into this game of peak relief. Which, which could be very lucrative. Because, based on last year's provincial global adjustment charges at large, you're looking at being paid something on the order of about $72,000 a megawatt hour for the, for the for the for the megawatt hours in question, which, which, of course, you know, try to get as many as you can. .

Trevor Freeman 26:31

Yeah. So there's a couple of things there. Bear with me while I connect a few dots for our listeners. So on different shows, we talk about different things. Global adjustment is one of them. And we've been talking here about these long term contracts. Global adjustment, as you might remember from previous conversations, is one of those mechanisms that bridges the gap between the spot market price, you know, the actual commodity cost of electricity that's out there, and some of the built-in cost to run the system, which includes these long term contracts. So there's a there's a fixed cost to run the system, global adjustment helps bridge that gap. The next concept here that is important to remember is this class, a strategy where the largest the largest customers, electricity customers in the province, have the opportunity to adjust how they are build global adjustment based on their contribution to the most intensive demand peaks in the province over the course of a year. So during a really high demand period, when everybody needs electricity, if they can reduce their demand, there's significant savings. And so what you're saying is there's this new this new ability for kind of a virtual connection, where, if I'm a big facility that has a high demand, and I contract with a generator, like a wind turbine that's not in contract anymore, I can say, hey, it's a peak time now I need to use some of your capacity to offset, you know, some of my demand, and there's those significant savings there. So you're absolutely right. That's a new thing in the province. We haven't had that ability up until just recently. So super fascinating, and that kind of connects our two topics today, that the large demand facilities in southern Ontario and these these generators that are potentially nearing the end of their contract and looking for what else might happen. So are you guys navigating that conversation between the greenhouses or the manufacturers and the generators?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 28:49

I'm so glad you asked. And here comes, here comes a shameless plug. Yeah? So yes. So there's a spin off company from the turbulence and Energy Lab, and it's called jailbreak labs. And jailbreak labs really represents sort of the space that is more commercial than research, but it also was sort of spurned, spurred from research. So jailbreak Labs has developed a registry, and we've been providing some webinars as well. So this, again, this is a company that that is essentially run by students, that this registry allows generators and consumers to ultimately find each other so that, so that these kinds of connections can be made. Because, as you may well imagine, there is no guarantee that the wind will be blowing at the time that you need it so, so and your load may be such that you need a different type of generation profile. So it needs to be profiling on the generation side. There needs to be profiling on the customer side. Yeah, and, you know, we've been doing this on our own for years. It was the time was right for us to sort of step in and say, because we were following this, we were real fanboys of this, of this reg, even before it came into play. And we kept bugging, you know, OEB for meetings and ISO and they, begrudgingly, to their credit, would chat with us about it, and then the next thing we know, it's announced that it's that it's happening. Was very exciting. So, so, yes, so we're really interested in seeing this happen, because it seems like such a unique, we're thrilled, because we're always interested in this sort of Second Life for assets that already have been depreciated and they're clean energy assets. Let's get everything we can out of them and to have this dynamic opportunity for them, and that will help Class A customers too hard for us to ignore.

Trevor Freeman 30:56

And you mentioned the last time we chatted about building a tool that helps evaluate and kind of injecting a little bit of AI decision making into this. Talk to us about that tool a little bit.

Dr Rupp Carriveau 31:08

Yeah. So we have a, we have a tool called quantract which is basically playing on the idea of quantifying all the risk and opportunity in in a contract. So it's really a contract visualization tool. Another way to think of it as a real time Net Present Value tool that allows renewable energy stakeholders to really, evaluate the value of their investment by not only understanding the physical life left in an asset. Let's say that a wind farm that's, you know, at 20 years and it looks like we may need to replace some blades. Do we just walk away and say, look at it. We had a good run contracts over, you know, we made some money. Let's sell the assets as they are. Or do we say, you know, I'm looking into this vppa game, and we could do okay here, but I'm not exactly sure how that's going to work and when. And so this, this tool that we've developed, will do things like will first of all identify all risk factors, and risk includes opportunities and then we'll profile them, and then builds them into basically what is more or less a glorified discounted cash flow model. So it is a way of measuring the potential value of investment in the AI space. I mean, the AI piece of it is that we have developed agents that will actually identify other things that are less, less sort of noticeable to people. In fact, this regulatory change is one of the things that our AI agents would have been looking for. Okay, now it pre it predated our tool going online, so we didn't see it, but it's the kind of thing that we'd be looking for. So the agents look for news, they look for changes online, and then, and then what happens is, they got brought, they get brought into a profiler. The profiler then determines the probability of or makes an estimate of the probability that this risk will occur. IE, a regulatory change will happen. IE, battery plant will come to town at a certain time. IE, a Costco facility will come in. Then we'll determine the potential magnitude. So there'll be uncertainty in the occurrence, there'll be uncertainty in the magnitude, and there'll be uncertainty in the timing. So we have basically statistical distribution functions for each one of those things, the likelihood of it happening, the magnitude and the timing. And so those are all modeled in so that people can push a button and, say, with this level of certainty your investment would be, would be worth this much. And that's dynamic. It's in real time. So it's changing constantly. It's being updated constantly. And so no so that that is something that goes in, and one of these virtual power purchase agreements would be one of the types of things that would go into this sort of investment timeline?

Trevor Freeman 34:22

Yeah, so it's giving these owners of these assets better data to make a decision about what comes next, as you said, and as we're talking I'm kind of doing the math here. If these are typically 20 year contracts, that's bringing us back to, you know, the mid, early, 2000s when we were really pushing to get off coal. So a lot of these assets probably started in and around that time. So you've probably got a whole bunch of customers, for lack of a better term, ready to start making decisions in the next you know, half a decade or so of what do I do with my. Sets. Have you seen this? Has it been used in the real world yet? Or is, are you getting close to that? Like, where are you at in development?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 35:07

Yeah, it actually started. It's funny. It started a little a little bit even before this craze. A couple years ago, we had, we had a manufacturer in our county come to us with, they had a great interest in, in just, just they were trying to be proactive about avoiding carbon tax and so, and they wanted to develop a new generation technology close to their facility. And so we used it there since that time. Yeah, so, so it was field proven that was a still a research contract, because they were the technology that they were interested in was, was, was not off the shelf. But since that time, we got a chance, because we represent Canada in the International Energy Agency, task 43 on wind energy digitalization. And so one of the mandates there was to develop a robust and transparent tools for investment decision support using digital twins. And we had a German partner in Fraunhofer Institute that had developed nice digital twin that would provide us remaining useful life values for things like blades, you know, towers, foundations, etc, and those are, again, those are all costs that just plug into our but they did. They didn't have a framework of how to work that into an investment decision other than, you know, you may have to replace this in three years. Okay, well, that's good to know, but we need the whole picture to make that decision, and that's sort of what we were trying to bring so the short answer is, yes, we're getting a lot of interest now, which is thrilling for us, but it's, I'll be honest with you, it's not, it's not simple, like, you know, I I've talked about it a bunch of times, so I'm pretty good at talking about it, but, but the doing it is still, it's computationally intensive and in the end, it's still an estimate. It's a, it's a, it's a calculated, quantified estimate, but it's an estimate. I think what we like about it is it's better than saying, Well, I have a hunch that it's going to go this way, but we could get beat by the hunches too. Yeah, totally, right. So, so, you know, I'm not trying to sell people things that, like I we have to be transparent about it. It's still probability.

Trevor Freeman 37:35

Well, I think if there's, if there's one thing that is very apparent, as we are well into this energy transition process that we talk about all the time here on the show. It's that the pace of change is is one of the things that's like no other time we are we are seeing things change, and that means both our demand is growing, our need to identify solutions is growing the way that we need to build out the grid and utilize the ers and utilize all these different solutions is growing at a rate that we haven't seen before, and therefore uncertainty goes up. And so to your point, yeah, we need help to make these decisions. We need better ways of doing it than just, as you say, having a hunch. That doesn't mean it's foolproof. It doesn't mean it's a guarantee.

Dr Rupp Carriveau 38:27

Nope, it is not a guarantee.

Trevor Freeman 38:30

Very cool. So Rupp, this is a great conversation. It's really fascinating to talk about to me, two areas of the energy sector that aren't really understood that well. I think the agriculture side of things, not a lot of people think about that as a major demand source. But also wind, I think we talk about solar a lot. It's a little bit more ubiquitous. People's neighbors have solar on their roofs. But wind is this unless you drive through Southern Ontario or other parts of the province where there's a lot of wind, you don't see it a lot. So it's fascinating to kind of help understand where these sectors are going. Is there anything else that the Institute is working on that that's worth chatting about here, or is what we've talked about, you know, kind of filling your day, in your students days?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 39:15

Well, actually there is something we haven't talked about the nuclear option. Literally, literally the nuclear literally the nuclear option. Yeah, so we've been really thrilled to have a growing relationship with Canadian Nuclear Laboratories, which is much closer to you than it is to me. And specifically in the connection of small modular reactors to meet these growing agricultural loads. So I have a science colleague at the University of Windsor, Dr drew Marquart, who was all hot and bothered about these s. Mrs. And he's like, we should drop one of these SMRs in Leamington. Then I this, this part I really enjoyed, because it's obviously so he came from Oak Ridge National Laboratories in the States, and he's and he's been at CNL as well. So he's fully indoctrinated into the nuclear space. But it just didn't occur to him that that would be provocative or controversial at all, that there wouldn't be some social he, you know, he's like, we can do the math. And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, we can do the math. But I'm like, I think you're missing something. I think you're missing something, right? So, but so it's, it's a super fascinating topic, and we're trying to connect, physically connect. So just before the weekend, I was in the turbulence and Energy Lab, and we were trying to commission what we believe is North America's first we're calling it a model synthetic, small modular reactor, synthetic being the key word, and that it's non nuclear, okay? And so it's non nuclear. What it what it is really and if I'm going to de glamorize it for a second, it's a mini steam thermal power plant, which doesn't embody every SMR design, but many SMRs are designed around this sort of where you've got a nuclear reaction that provides the heat, and then after that, it's kind of a steam thermal power plant. Our interest is in this physical little plant being connected to small electrolyzer, being connected to small thermal battery, being connected to a lab scale electric battery and being connected to a lab scale fully automated inlet, cucumber, small cucumber, greenhouse, mini cubes greenhouse, all this in our lab. The exciting thing around this is, you know, I I've said that I think nuclear technology needs to get out from behind the walls of nuclear facilities for people to start to appreciate it, and by that, to start doing that, you have to take the nuclear part out, which, to me, is not necessarily a deal breaker in terms of these dynamic issues that we want to solve. You know, because nukes have traditionally been said, Well, you know they're not that. You know, you can't just ramp them up and down, and that's true, you know, and small modular reactors are supposed to be considerably more nimble, but there's still lots of challenges that have to be solved in terms of having how it is an asset that is provides copious energy, but does so maybe not, not as dynamic, certainly, as a gas turbine. That how does it? How do you make it nimble, right? How do you partner it up with the right complimentary other grid assets to take advantage of what it does so well, which is crank out great amounts of heat and electricity so, so effortlessly, right? And so that's, that's sort of what we're trying to do, and connecting it to what we're calling atomic agriculture. I don't know that's a good name or not. I like it, but, but, but, yeah, so that that's another thing that we're that we're flirting with right now. We're working on. We've done a few. We've had a few contracts with Canadian Nuclear Laboratories to get us this far. We did everything computationally. We're continuing to do computational studies with them. They develop their own hybrid energy systems, optimizer software, HISO, which we use, and we are now trying to put it into sort of the hardware space. So again, just the idea that physically looking at the inertia of spinning up a turbine, the little gap, the little sort of steam powered turbine that we have in the lab that's run by an electric boiler. But our hope is to, ultimately, we're going to get the electric boiler to be mimicking the sort of reaction heating dynamics of a true reactor. So by, but through electrical control. So we'll imitate that by having sort of data from nuclear reactions, and then we'll sort of get an electrical signal analog so that we can do that and basically have a non nuclear model, small modular reactor in the lab.

Trevor Freeman 44:14

Very cool, very neat. Well, Rupp, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate it. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions here, so I'm going to jump right into those. What's a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 44:31

I would say any of the Babysitters Club. That's as high as I get in the literary hierarchy. I'm barely literate so and I thoroughly enjoyed reading those books with my daughters that they were great. So I recommend any, any of the Babysitters Club titles. I mean that completely seriously, I that was the peak of my that are dog man, yeah,

Trevor Freeman 44:56

I'm about six months removed from what i. Was about an 18 month run where that's, that's all I read with my youngest kiddo. So they've, they've just moved on to a few other things. But yes, I've been steeped in the Babysitter's Club very recently.

Dr Rupp Carriveau 45:11

So good. So, you know, absolutely.

Trevor Freeman 45:14

So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's something that you recommend?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 45:17

Everyone thrilled with that question. If you're looking for a good, good true story. I've always been romantically obsessed with the ghost in the darkness, the true story of, I guess, a civil engineer trying to solve a problem of man eating lions and Tsavo. That's a, that's a, that's a tremendous movie with Val Kilmer and Michael Douglas. Yeah, that's good then, and I think for something a little more light hearted and fun, a big fan of the way, way back and youth and revolt, nice.

Trevor Freeman 46:03

If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 46:05

I don't really like flying, I got to be honest. But if, if I was forced onto the plane, I think, I think I go to Japan. Nice. Have you been before? No, I haven't. I'd like to go. Okay, cool. You're not the first guest that has said that someone else was very That's understandable. Yeah, who is someone that you admire? I would say truly selfless people that help people when no one's looking and when it's not being tabulated for likes those people are who I aspire to be more like nice.

Trevor Freeman 46:47

And last question, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?

Dr Rupp Carriveau 46:53

I think maybe power to the people I really like, the movement of distributed energy resources. I'm sure there's a limit to it, but I think, I think if we have more responsibility for our own power production, and again, I can see there are limits where it's probably, you know, there's, there's a point where it's too much. I'm all for, for major centralized coordination and the security in the reliability that goes with that. But I think a little bit more on the distributed side would be nice, because I think people would understand energy better. They would they would own it more, and I think our grid would probably increase in its resiliency.

Trevor Freeman 47:37

Yeah, that's definitely something that no matter the topic, it seems, is a part of almost every conversation I have here on the show. It works its way in, and I think that's indicative of the fundamental role that decentralizing our energy production and storage is is already playing and is going to play in the years to come as we kind of tackle this energy transition drove this has been a really great conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us, and that's great to catch up. Great to chat with you again.

Dr Rupp Carriveau 48:11

Total privilege for me. Trevor, I really appreciate it. Outstanding job.

Trevor Freeman 48:15

Thanks for having me. Yeah, great to chat. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Rooftop solar. Backup batteries. Smart EV chargers. Distributed energy resources (DERs) are changing the way electricity is generated, managed, and used in Ontario. In this thinkenergy short, Trevor Freeman breaks down how DERs can reduce your carbon footprint, provide backup power during outages, and help you manage your energy costs. Listen in for how net metering, load displacement, and evolving tech partnerships are reshaping the future of the grid and giving you more control over your energy.

Related links

• Breaking down Distributed Energy Resources, with Hydro Ottawa's Trevor Freeman (thinkenergy episode 146): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/breaking-down-distributed-energy-resources-with-hydro-ottawas-trevor-freeman/

• Consumer impact: revisiting grid modernization with Capgemini Canada (thinkenergy episode 162): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/consumer-impact-revisiting-grid-modernization-with-capgemini-canada/

• Save on Energy programs: https://saveonenergy.ca/en/For-Business-and-Industry/Programs-and-incentives/Retrofit-Program

• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back. Today on think energy, I'm going to talk about distributed energy resources, or DERs. Now, if you've been listening to the show for a long time or even a short time, you will have heard us talk about DERs many times before, and for good reason. DERs are an important and growing part of our energy lives. About a year ago, I did an episode diving into what DERs are, and I encourage you to go back and listen to that one. But today I thought I do a quick refresh and talk about some of the most common ways that DERs are used. So, let's dive right in. First the refresh. DERs or distributed energy resources, are simply pieces of equipment that can generate or store power, generally on the smaller scale size of things, and spread throughout the grid. So, we're not talking about large scale, centralized generation plants here, but that small to medium scale, kind of think rooftop solar or batteries that are sized for home or facility use. And generally, when we're talking about DERs, we're focused on renewable technology like solar panels or batteries, and in some cases, you know, smaller wind turbines. For the most part on this show, that's what we're focused on. However, there are sort of non-renewable DERs as well, and we'll actually touch on that a little bit later. So, let's dive into what some of the reasons are why someone would want a der there's a couple of different reasons. The first is for backup during an outage. So, using solar panels, especially if paired with a battery, can give you some backup if there's an outage from the grid, whether that's a storm or an accident or something like that, that backup power can be focused on your key devices or systems or appliances, or if your storage is big enough, or your system is big enough, it may be used to power your whole home for a period of Time. Of course, if you're using one of those nonrenewable sources that I mentioned, like a fossil fuel power generator, for example, then your backup supply can last longer, really, as long as you've got fuel, but it's not clean, so you will be producing carbon emissions. One emerging technology that we'll likely see more of in the future is using an electric vehicle for this purpose. So, while there's only a few different models that allow this right now, the Ford f1 50 is one of them, and there are some safety and regulatory considerations before you go ahead and do this, we can expect to see more of this in the future as the technology advances and it becomes a bit more widespread. Another reason for DERs is financial. Installing a der can actually help you save money every month, whether that's just by reducing what you consume from the grid or by pushing back unused generation to the grid for credits. And I'll touch on this a little bit more shortly. Finally, if we're talking about those renewable DERs, they produce clean energy. So that's carbon, free emissions, free energy. And if you are concerned about your carbon footprint, you're trying to decarbonize and reduce the amount of emissions that you cause. DERs, renewable DERs are a great way to do that. You can lower your carbon footprint by reducing how much you draw from the electricity grid and any carbon emissions that are associated with that. Okay, so let's go back to the financial use case for a minute and talk about the different ways that that's possible. I'll be speaking about the Ontario context here. So, if you're listening from outside of Ontario, you'll have to do a little bit of your own research to figure out what options exist where you live. One option to set up your der for financial reasons is net metering, which I kind of alluded to earlier. Net metering is a setup for renewable generation sources only that allows you to use as much of your generation as you can to power your home when you're using it, and then push back whatever you don't use to the grid. Whatever you push back to the grid, will give you a credit on your bill that you can use to offset the electricity charge portion of your bill. Another option would be load displacement. With this arrangement, you can generate electricity exclusively for your own use, so you will reduce the amount that you pull from the grid, and that will save you money, but you don't push anything back to the grid, and therefore you don't earn any credits. And finally, there are standalone generation setups. This arrangement involves pushing all of your generation back to the grid for some agreed upon compensation. While there used to be programs for small scale standalone generation so you might be familiar and on. Ontario with the fit or the MicroFit programs that existed about 10 years ago. These programs are closed today, and generally only large generators have a standalone arrangement. Now, like any technology, DERs are not free to install. In fact, they can be quite pricey in some cases, but because they provide benefit to the grid. There are incentive programs out there to help reduce the upfront costs. Here in Ontario, the ISOs save on energy programs provide an incentive to any customer type, from residential all the way up to large commercial to install rooftop solar, and homeowners can access additional funding to install the battery along with their solar. If you're interested in doing this, or you want to learn a little bit more, you can reach out to your LDC, visit our website. If you're in hydro Ottawa's territory, or visit save on energy.ca. In the near future, you will also likely see more utilities wanting to partner with der owners. I talked about this a little bit in my last episode with Andrea Nusser About grid modernization here at hydro Ottawa, we are working on a technology project that will be launched next year that will enable der owners to leverage their devices for an incentive to help manage the grid in targeted areas. It's pretty exciting stuff, and it's really the next wave of distributed energy resources on our grid and how we're going to interact with them. It's pretty exciting. So, there you have it. That's a quick summary of the different ways that DERs are used. If you're looking at installing a der in your home, whether that's solar or battery or anything else, or for your business for that matter, have a look at our website. Make sure you fill out the application forms and reach out to us so that we can help get you set up and get you using your der thanks for tuning in to another think energy short and look forward to chatting with you next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Grid modernization goes beyond smart meters. It’s making the grid more responsive, customer-focused, and resilient. Andrea Nuesser, Grid Modernization Leader at Capgemini Canada, joins thinkenergy to explain how smart tech, real-time data, and evolving customer relationships are changing how electricity is delivered, managed, and consumed. From account numbers to engaged consumers, electric vehicles to home energy, listen in to learn how the grid of the future will shape how you consume energy.

Related links

• IESO Peaks Perks Program: https://saveonenergy.ca/en/For-Your-Home/Peak-Perks
• Dr. Andrea Newer on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-andrea-nuesser-201147188/
• Capgemini: https://www.capgemini.com/ca-en/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

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Fire bans. Blackouts. Heat waves. Extreme weather is hitting harder and more often. Plus, Canada’s electricity demand is soaring. In thinkenergy episode 161, host Trevor Freeman breaks down how utilities plan for grid resilience, from upgrading local infrastructure to planning a national east-west grid. He also explores how customer demand response can help prevent outages. Learn how climate and consumption are reshaping our energy systems and what’s being done to keep the lights on through extreme weather.

Related links

• Electrifying Canada’s remote communities with QUEST Canada (thinkenergy episode 143): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to a thinkenergy short, hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back to thinkenergy. I hope you all had a great summer at equal parts restful and exciting. Certainly, we had a great summer here. It was good to take a bit of a step back and think about all the exciting topics that we have to talk to you about coming up over the course of the next season of the think energy podcast. And it's nice to be back here behind the microphone. I'm recording this just at the tail end of summer, the kind of end of August, and looking forward to getting into lots of good content this year. Today, we're going to start off our season with a look at the impact of extreme weather on our grid, as our grid is already under pressure from growing electricity demand. So it's a bit of a look at what utilities are doing in the face of that pressure. So this will be a think energy short, and we'll bring you our guest episode the next time around. So let's dive right in then. What does extreme weather mean for Canada's electricity infrastructure, and should we be worried about its ability to handle that extreme weather? This is kind of top of mind right now. We're at the tail end of summer. It's been a pretty hot and dry summer, at least where I am. Incidentally, I'm about to head into Algonquin Park for a backcountry camping trip, and there's a fire bed on and that's not unheard of in Algonquin Park and in many parts of the country, but this late in the season, it's pretty rare. I think this might actually be the first time that we've had a fire ban so late in the season that I can remember that I've been camping on and I go pretty frequently. So that'll be a little bit unique. And so yeah, a hot, dry summer is certainly one of those things we think of when we think about the changing weather patterns. But this is also top of mind because Rukshar Ali, who's a journalist with CTV, has been exploring, you know, the weak points in Canada's electricity grids, and has been writing about what impact extreme weather might have on those grids. So at a very high level, Canada's power grids as they are built today and in the past, as they have been built. So at a high level, Canada's power grids, as we've been building them for the last 100 years or so, need improvements in order to be able to withstand the frequent extreme weather and growing demand for electricity that we're having. That's not anything new, we talk about that often, how we need to invest in our grid for both reliability as well as expansion and the growing electrification of our society. Climate change is here, extreme weather is here, and those things are adding strain to our grid at the same time that demand is increasing and the grid is is redundant in many aspects. If we lose one component, then we can continue on and serve parts of our customer base from other sections. But extreme weather events are likely to knock out several aspects of the grid at once, and we need to improve in order to be able to withstand that. To give you a sense of the magnitude of the issue, the North American Electric Liability Corporation predicts that within the next decade, half of North America will be at risk for a significant blackout. So let's talk a little bit about why extreme weather as we know as the as the globe warms up from climate change, the frequency and magnitude of weather events increases, so we'll see more extreme weather events, and those extreme weather events will be more extreme, to reuse that word, and we're already seeing this. So last year, for example, severe weather caused 1000 outages in Nova Scotia, between 2013 and 2023 if we look across the entire country, there were around 10 extreme weather events that caused nearly 20 million customers to lose power across Canada. And eight of those 10 extreme weather events occurred in the five year period between 2018 and 2023 so that the frequency of these very significant, very extreme weather events, is definitely growing up. This is all happening at the same time that the country's electricity demand is also increasing and placing pressure on our infrastructure. So we know that usage is going to grow with electrification. We've talked about that a lot here and here in Ontario, the Independent Electricity System Operator, is projecting that consumption will increase by 75% by the year 2050, which is a significant jump up. And so as demand is increasing, we're also seeing that pressure on the grid from that and extreme weather kind of exacerbates that problem too. So extreme heat waves cause people to use their air conditioners more frequently and for longer, and that puts greater demand on the grid as well. So in July of 2023 you might recall this extreme kind of heat period in British Columbia out on the West Coast, and there's the heat dome, and that period saw the province use about 8% more electricity on average, than the previous kind of six year July average. So there is a significant increase from that one single heat event. So what do we do about this? How do we act in the face of increased extreme weather and electrification. Well, first off, we definitely need to update our infrastructure. And utility companies across the country and indeed across North America know this and have already started to do this here in hydro Ottawa's territory, for example, as I've talked about before, hydro Ottawa has a five year investment plan covering the 2026 to 2030 period, which is the largest investment plan in our company's history, and it carries a significant amount of investment in grid reliability, grid modernization, improving and expanding our infrastructure for just these challenges, so for the extreme weather and increased electricity demand across Our grid, if you zoom out a little bit and other parts of the country, the East Coast, for example, Nova Scotia Power recently finished a pole replacement project that saw a significant number of poles being replaced, and they're now moving into a Smart Grid Initiative, which is similar to grid modernization that I've talked about Here on the show in the past, which also addresses utilization of the grid, as well as ability to react during an outage on a bigger scale across the entire country, the federal government has promised to look at an east, west electricity grid, which would help connect more Canadians to more affordable and reliable power. And obviously, new construction would be focused on being able to withstand extreme weather as well as bring on more electricity demand as part of electrification. We've talked here in the past on the show, and the CTV journalist Ali points out that the current grid system makes it a lot easier for provinces to transfer electricity to the United States. It's kind of that north south flow of electricity is a lot easier than an East West flow of electricity. So trading between provinces today is difficult, and that's why there's a push for a national grid, an East West grid, that would make it a lot easier for Canadians to share electricity amongst each other. This would also have the benefit of helping connect more rural and remote communities. So I draw your attention back to a podcast episode I did with quest Canada, where we talked about some of those more remote communities and how a lot of them are not connected to a reliable grid. So there's a lot of work that can be done to really shore up how we connect across the country to the different areas, especially with a major east west grid. And of course, this is supported during this kind of, you know, a little bit tumultuous political climate that we have as we're reevaluating trading relationships with the United States, with other countries, it's important that we really focus on, how do we make sure things flow very well within our own borders? Beyond just the transmission and the grid upgrades that we need to do, we also need to look at diversifying our supply of electricity. So here in Canada, we use a lot of hydro generation, but extreme weather that causes droughts put that at risk. And so low water levels can impact electrical production, and we need to be prepared to have alternative sources as well. We still need to focus on making sure those sources are renewable. So really looking at expanding wind, solar, nuclear energy in some cases, as well as building out other hydro electric generation resources, is really important to have a good diversified mix. And on top of all that, we also need to continue looking at, how can we lower our energy consumption, especially during those peak times, especially when the grid is under stress at certain times of the day or from certain weather events. And we've seen that this can work. So in January 2024 the Alberta electric system operator, or IESO, issued an alert. It was a cold weather alert asking customers to reduce their electricity use during an extremely cold period in that province. And. And shortly after that, there was a 200 megawatt drop in electricity demand, which really helped the province avoid a series of rolling outages and avoid some real challenges on the grid. So it does work when customers are asked to alter their behavior in, you know, hopefully, small and subtle ways to manage grid peaks, and that's a really huge tool that we have. And we've talked before on the show about the role of managing peak times on the grid and being able to shift some of that usage to other times to avoid over stressing the assets that we have. That's going to be a really important strategy as we face increasing demand and extreme weather outages to make sure we're not over stressing the grid. So to sum that all up, extreme weather is going to impact our grid, and utilities do need to be aware of that and plan for how to build a grid that is more resilient and more reliable in the face of that increasing extreme weather. The good news is that utility companies know this and are already moving in that direction, and hydro Ottawa is a good example of that, of really focusing on building out reliability on its grid with some of the investment plans that we have put forward, and that extends all the way up to the federal level as well, where our federal leadership is looking at, how do we plan a EAST, WEST grid, really build out that provincial grid, and while we do that, a continued focus on energy efficiency and reducing electricity demand during peak times, and the various tools that we have to do that. So yes, extreme weather is coming, but there's a plan of how to deal with that. So thanks for tuning in today. It's really great to be back here behind the microphone and chatting with you all. Our next episode is another look at grid modernization, but this time through a customer lens, and really, what does grid modernization mean for customers? So stay tuned and join us in two weeks for our next episode. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com, you.

View Details

Summer rewind: Hydro Ottawa recently unveiled its largest investment plan ever, with a five-year focus on modernizing and strengthening the grid. The way we’re consuming energy is changing, and this investment plan focuses on four key areas that highlight why Hydro Ottawa is taking action, and how they plan on doing it.

Hydro Ottawa’s Chief Operating Officer, Guillaume Paradis, joins thinkenergy to dive a little deeper into those focus areas, and why they matter, with host Trevor Freeman.

Related links

● Guillaume Paradis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

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--

Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.

Trevor Freeman 00:55

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydroottawa.com.

Trevor Freeman 01:19

hi everyone, and welcome back. A few episodes back I talked about some of the important work that happens at the distribution level to maintain and expand our grid, and I tried to connect the dots between that work and the broader societal energy transition that is happening at all levels. How the work we do at the distribution level is really important and tied to some of those larger projects that may get a little bit more news and attention that energy transition, which, as you're hopefully aware by now, is ongoing right now. It's not something of the future. It's happening today. That energy transition is multifaceted, but from an electricity and electrification perspective, the distribution utility, ie the Hydro Ottawa, of whatever jurisdiction you're in, is at the very leading edge of many of the changes we need to see within our electricity system to support that transition. So today, I'd like to go a little bit further with that topic and focus on Hydro Ottawa's next five year investment plan, which covers the 2026 to 2030 period. This will be the largest investment plan in our history as a company. And I wanted to dig into what we have identified as key focus areas for investment in the coming five years, with more than 100 years of operating a large, complex distribution network, Hydro Ottawa is embarking on a pretty significant journey to modernize and strengthen our grid for the challenges and opportunities ahead of us. We have filed our 2026, to 2030, Electricity Distribution rate application, as it's called, with the Ontario Energy Board, and this is a standard practice for all local distribution companies in Ontario. That's what we have to do. As a reminder for our listeners, the Ontario Energy Board, or OEB, as we often call it, is our independent regulator. Their mission in this process is to strike a balance between ensuring the financial health and operational needs of utilities like Hydro Ottawa, while also safeguarding the affordability and reliability of the service for the customer. So they want to make sure that we're spending enough to tackle the right projects on the grid, to make sure it stays operational while not spending too much. They meticulously scrutinize every detail of these applications to ensure that the proposed rates are just and reasonable, and that all investments are prudent and really in the public interest. So we have gotten a number of questions about the plan and specifically around where is the money going to go? What are you going to actually spend these dollars that you're requesting on? And why are these investments necessary? What benefits are they actually going to bring to our community? And often we get the question of, does this mean less outages or shorter outages? So I want to dig into that. I want to talk a little bit about what we've got planned and what the impact will be, and what the impact would be if we don't do those things, and to help me walk through that energy roadmap, that plan that we've put together. I've got Guillaume Paradis joining me today. Guillaume is the Chief Operating Officer of generation and distribution here at Hydro Ottawa, and he's going to join me, and we're going to talk through this. Guillaume and his teams are responsible for the planning, design, operation, construction and maintenance of our electrical power distribution system, and in his role, he leads the teams that are directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient and reliable delivery of electricity to our customers. Today, I'm going to ask Guillaume, really, to walk us through the details of. Our investment plan, how it was shaped, how we came up with these specific areas, and what benefits are going to be realized by our community and the broader energy landscape. Guillaume, Paradis, welcome to the show. Pleasure to be here. Trevor, okay, so, Guillaume, this is Hydro Ottawa's largest investment plan ever, and I'd like you to start by talking us through the primary drivers behind what our five year investment plan is.

Guillaume Paradis 05:29

Yeah, so as you've heard, as you've seen, we're in a historical, or historically, you know, unique point in the evolution of our industry. Electricity underpins most of our societal aspirations with respect to creating, you know, a more sustainable future, creating the future we want to leave for the next generations. And our distribution system underpins a lot of those aspirations in simple ways and in more complex ways. So, you know, a simple way is that essentially, for, you know, the well being of our society, for our customers, the residents of Ottawa, and really any area, to live the lives they're hoping to live, to, you know, enjoy the benefits of modern life. Electricity is a critical underpinning in any way you can imagine and you know, think about so. Our service has always been very important. It's just become even more critical as a foundational block for you know, the lives that we're hoping to live and we're living today in our modern society. So that, combined with other aspirations related to where we can reducing our carbon footprint and integrating more renewable energy resources within our footprint, it creates a situation where there's a significant need for us to invest, continue to invest and reinvest in our infrastructure to deliver those outcomes for customers.

Trevor Freeman 07:16

Yeah, I think, I mean, we talk a lot about the energy transition on the show, and if, if you think about, you know, let's say our previous rate application five years ago, the energy transition was a thing we knew about it, but it was like a thing of tomorrow where, hey, that's going to come soon. The difference now, I assume, and maybe you can speak to this, is we're seeing that. We're seeing the change now.

Guillaume Paradis 07:40

Yeha, you're exactly correct, like we're in it now. So we've been talking about it for some time, both from a like a general societal aspiration standpoint, but also from a technological standpoint. For a very long time, we talked about electric vehicles having an impact and becoming more commonplace. We talked about leveraging automation to deliver our services. We talked about two way power flows. So we've been building toward this moment, and now we're essentially in it, if you will, and we're seeing all those things, the confluence of all those longer term trends, sort of manifest themselves in real demand for our system, in real changes in our customers want to use energy, and we're in the middle of that, and we're, you know, to enable those things happening in our community here in Ottawa.

Trevor Freeman 08:36

Yeah. So it's like the business as usual, a lot of the same things, and we're going to talk about some of this. About some of the specifics, but a lot of the same thing, things we would normally do just a lot more of at the same time, as like also pivoting a little bit to meet some of these new needs, like charging transportation and like heating our spaces, more of electricity, like some of these new needs that didn't exist are not to the same extent. So it's like more of the same plus other new stuff, and we're gonna talk about that in a minute.

Guillaume Paradis 09:11

Yeah. So, you know, we always would say that the future of the energy sector was very exciting, and things were coming and like, change was upon us, and now, essentially, we're, we're living it, right? So you have to carry on with the responsibilities that you always had, and meanwhile, figure out how to deliver those new outcomes, those new services that previously weren't required or expected, right?

Trevor Freeman 09:39

So let's, let's kind of get into some of the details here. So there are four key capital investment categories in this plan, so growth and electrification, aging, infrastructure, grid modernization and grid resilience. So we're going to dive into the specifics of these in a minute, but we're. To start off with why these four? How did we land on these four as the main categories?

Guillaume Paradis 10:07

Yeah, so there's, there's various ways you can categorize investments. There's a lot of drivers that will lead us to invest in an area or replace some infrastructure somewhere in our system, these categories capture quite well. What is at the core of various investments. So for one specific investment, there will be multiple drivers, but these ones sort of in an elegant way, I would say, capture. You know why investments are occurring, what the primary driver is for those investments, and they help translate that for folks who are not involved day to day in planning the electricity system, that's our responsibility. What we're trying to communicate is why we're taking action where we're taking action. So those categories, in my mind, capture that really well. They also tie our investments to broad trends that people should be aware of, and they're a way to make sure that we have, you know, a clear baseline for a conversation as we proceed with those plans.

Trevor Freeman 11:18

Yeah, one thing I find, and you know, in my role, I talk to customers a lot, and I find these are fairly easy to explain, or at least, I hope they are, if you're listening and you disagree, let us know. But people can kind of get their heads around why the utility needs to do each of these four things, and some, in some ways, they align with other sectors as well. So I think, and I hope, as we carry on our conversation here, it'll be easy to sort of build out the picture of what we're doing in each of those four areas. So why don't we? Let's dive right in then and look at the specifics. And starting with growth and electrification, what are the specific investments that are planned to support the growing energy needs of our community, you know. And we've already started talking about electric vehicles, other electrified aspects of our lives, like, what? What falls into this category?

Guillaume Paradis 12:11

Yeah, so with respect to growth and electrification, um, there's a few underlying trends that drive the investment requirements. So as you've suggested, as you mentioned, you know, there's an evolution of how our customers use energy at home, day to day. EVS being obviously a primary example that everyone will be very aware of. Just, you know, driving around town, frankly, the difference in how regularly you'll see electric vehicles in our community relative to even five years ago is is pretty dramatic, and that is having a long term, you know, impact over time, likewise for technologies like heat pumps at home, and just generally, the growth of our community. So those elements just drive a longer-term trend of more demand being present in our community, within our system. And in addition to that, one big change that we've seen over the last few years is more large scale demand request coming into our service territory, typically, that will be large customers wanting to do something different with energy. So it could go. It could be driven by a few different kinds of corporate aspirations. What we're seeing a lot of are instances where large corporations decide, or institutions decide, to do away with more carbon intensive energy sources, so they will look to us and electricity to replace what previously would have been another fuel source that maybe is less green. So we're seeing that affecting choices some of those type of customers are making, and then at the same time, we're seeing just large requests related to a different type of energy demand. So companies wanting to, for example, bring back their R and D efforts to a data center that they operate and they control, so that they have more control over cybersecurity elements, and then, likewise, with where their data flows to and how it's being managed. So we're seeing large requests at a rate that we didn't previously, and that those requests are significant enough that they require us to make very major investments, like new substations, like building a. New feeders again at a pace that far outpaces what we've seen historically. So the underlying trend of more small demand creating an impact at the aggregate level, combined with those larger requests, that's creating a significant need for us to invest in responding to that growth in the electrification drivers within our system.

Trevor Freeman 15:29

Yeah, so this is in response to what we're seeing our customers do. And that's it's something that has come up before in conversation here. Of you know, we we respond to what we see our customers doing and what our customers are asking us. They're asking for more power. We have to respond to provide that more power. So this, this kind of area of investment, is really just building out the grid and all of the assets and infrastructure that are that make up the grid to be able to meet the needs of our customers, which are growing faster than they were previously? Is that fair to say?

Guillaume Paradis 16:05

Yeah, and for us, it's an interesting balancing act we have to find where we have to anticipate our customers’ needs and the demand that's upon us, but we can't get ahead of it, because that would draw investments that potentially would, you know, later become stranded, or, you know, create a cost burden for our customers. So we have to know where the demand is going, and we have to be ready to respond and connect new customers, but we can't get too far ahead of it, because ultimately, you know, if we invest too soon, that's, you know, a burden for all our customers. So sometimes I, I would say there's that misconception that somehow, we're, we're creating our own forecast and believing our own forecast. And really, it's a bit simpler than that, we take in the request and we respond to those requests. We have to be able to look out a few years to make sure that we're not missing, you know, anything significant that would have an impact on our system, but we don't get too far ahead from an investment standpoint.

Trevor Freeman 17:19

Okay, so Guillaume, we've been talking about the more traditional aspects of our grid, you know, pulls, wires, transformers, et cetera. But I know that we're also looking at how we can deploy what we call non wire solutions to also help manage capacity on our grid. Can you just explain what some of these solutions are and how we're going to use them in conjunction with our traditional assets to manage grid needs.

Guillaume Paradis 17:43

Yeah, so normal alternatives are essentially the concept that without having to install traditional infrastructure, think poles, new Transformers, new cables, underground, you may be able to harvest existing resources within your footprint to help you manage operational needs. Be it like certain peaks that have a short duration, other scenarios of constraints where, rather than building net new infrastructure, which is expensive and time consuming, you might be able to optimize I'll call it the use of embedded resources in a manner that actually meets your operational objectives. So the way you would do that is by using combination of resources. Typically, you would look at small scale embedded storage. So if it exists in the system, you would actually leverage it if, if you could, otherwise, you might install some in a very targeted manner that helps you meet those operational needs. And then otherwise, you would leverage customer resources. So that's either existing generation that is owned by customers, or which is more typical, you know their ability to adjust their demand at certain times to meet your operational constraints. So the idea there is that you can do a business case, you can do an evaluation of what it would take to engage all these resources to get the same operational outcome as you would if you build the new infrastructure, and compare the two on a cost basis. And actually, in some instances, see scenarios where those non wire alternatives actually beat out large scale infrastructure upgrades from a financial standpoint. So it's, it's an evolving area. We have a few pockets within the city that we're targeting for programs like those ones, and we expect, over time, as more embedded resources proliferate, as more customer devices become controllable, we'll have a great. Greater opportunity, in fact, to leverage those non wire alternatives, or those non traditional solutions to meet our operational requirements.

Trevor Freeman 20:08

Great. So this is a combination of you know, Hydro Ottawa is planning to invest in in some assets, you know, be they battery or otherwise, on our side of the meter. We call that in front of the meter to help manage grid needs, while also looking for opportunities to partner with customers you know in the aggregate, so you know 100 or 1000 customers at once, to say if we need to call on your devices to either inject into the grid or to ramp back your operations, that will help us manage grid needs while the customer still maintains control. Is that fair to say?

Guillaume Paradis 20:47

Yeah, that's fair, and that's an emerging capacity we have. So if our ability to control and call upon a very large number of small devices and customer devices has grown and is growing and will be over the next few years. And with that, our capacity to then draw from those resources to respond to operational circumstances is also increasing and will give us options we just wouldn't have had in the past. So it's just a better way of utilizing available energy resources a more refined way, and one that probably wasn't available to us at scale 10 years ago.

Trevor Freeman 21:29

Yeah, and the driver behind all this is what's the best, most cost effective way to address that grid need? Some cases it's going to be the poles and wires and transformers. In some cases, it's going to be these non wire solutions, and it's part of the planning of the grid to identify where does each technology make sense.

Guillaume Paradis 21:50

Absolutely. So again, it's a more refined way of assessing options and ensuring that we identify the most cost effective strategies possible.

Trevor Freeman 22:02

Perfect, great. Okay, so that's the growth and electrification section. Let's move to aging infrastructure, which is about a third of this investment plan. So this may seem like a softball to start with, but what are some of the challenges posed by aging infrastructure? Maybe talk to us a little bit about what that infrastructure is when it comes to utility grid, and then what are what are we doing with this investment plan to address that aging infrastructure?

Guillaume Paradis 22:31

Yeah, so aging infrastructure is a very clear and appropriate descriptor here. So we invest in assets that are long lived, think 5060, years plus in some instances, and you know, eventually you use them, you leverage them over, you know, many decades. And at some point, those assets deteriorate beyond a point where they're no longer able to provide the service that our customers expect. So that would be failures, which leads to reliability issues in parts of our system. So one at one point or another in the life cycle of those assets, depending on how they're being used, what environment they are operated in, you have to replace them. What we try to do is assess them on a risk basis. And when we say risk, we mean, what impact can they have on our customers if they were to fail? Impacts can be things like safety risk. It could be, of course, reliability issues. It could limit our ability to service our customers. And so we assess risk on an ongoing basis, looking at those assets over decades. And eventually we get to a point where the risk has to be addressed, and that typically takes the form of or it can take the form of an outright replacement through the life cycle of all those assets, all of our assets. We do maintenance, we inspect them, we try to see if there are other things we can do before we replace them. But you get to a point ultimately, where the only option that's viable is to actually replace and then you have to go in and take action, physically in the field. Now what becomes a little complicated is, as you can imagine, it's one thing to put infrastructure up when a field being converted to a subdivision, or the city's growing and it's all brand new. You know, infrastructure being developed to support the growth, but decades later, when you come back, 60-70, years plus, in some cases, you're in someone's backyard. You're in the middle of an intersection where multiple utilities have installed their own infrastructure. So you have to coordinate that things have been moved over time. So getting access to the infrastructure is more difficult. Difficult, and so replacing many decades later is a lot more involved than putting up new infrastructure in the first place, and the type of infrastructure that we're talking about here probably falls into three major categories. So there's the overhead infrastructure you see around town. So really, when you and you shouldn't do that while you're driving, but if you're walking ideally, and you're looking at the beautiful hydro infrastructure around Ottawa, what you'll see are very old poles that need attention. So that's very visible, right? We have wood poles, you know, in a lot of the areas of our city, and you get to a point where structurally, they're not as strong as they used to be. They've weathered many storms, and they need attention. And then otherwise, it's the Transformers you might see on those poles. And that would be the boxes that are hanging from the poles, the ones that look like they, you know, predate the Cold War are the ones we're going after, and we need to give some attention to today. And then on the underground side, similar infrastructure, it's cables in in the ground, so in some instances, it's buried directly in someone's backyard. That was a an approach people took many decades back. Now, you can imagine it's very convenient when you're building it, but not so much when you're trying to get it out of the ground and put new cables into the ground. So there's cables that need replacing. They've, you know, been damaged or creating reliability issues. The transformers that go with that as well might need attention. And again, as I mentioned before, you know, decades later, that transformer may be right behind someone's pool in their backyard, and they've done some real nice landscaping, and accessing it for a replacement is a lot more complicated. So underground infrastructure, in fact, is one of the more complicated replacements to execute. And then, you know, if you move up from there, you're looking at substation equipment. So that's the stuff that's fenced in across the city where power is being delivered from to our customers across the city. And so those assets may be a bit less complicated in terms of managing sites and access, but certainly complicated in terms of logistics costs of the equipment. Those are very, very large assets that require a lot of planning to replace, because they're critical to our system, and we can't afford to have them be out of service too long.

Trevor Freeman 27:49

Got you and just for our listeners, while Guillaume talking, I pulled up a few quick stats here. So we, Hydro Ottawa on our service territory, has over 6000 kilometers of conductor so of wires and just under 50,000 poles out in our service territory. So as you can imagine, a lot of that is in great shape, and some of it isn't, and some of it needs to be addressed, just like you're talking about here Guillaume.

Guillaume Paradis 28:17

Yeah, and that's helpful. Trevor. The thing that we often forget, especially for electricity distribution, is the sheer number of assets that can create a risk. So it's one thing to manage one large transformer and make sure it doesn't fail, but when you're talking about 1000s of assets dispersed around a very large service territory like Ottawa, making sure that we keep an eye on all of them at all times, making sure that we intervene at the exact time prior to a failure, to make sure we deliver the best service possible for our customers. That's really the essence of our challenge and what makes distribution unique versus other parts of our business, where it's maybe more centralized and you may be looking at a smaller set of assets.

Trevor Freeman 29:04

Yeah, absolutely okay, so obviously, it's important to maintain what we've got, in addition to building out that new stuff that we talked about earlier, maintaining and replacing what we have, so that you know our existing grid remains reliable. The next section of our investment plan is what we call grid modernization. Now that's something that we've talked about to varying levels of detail on this show before, but I'd like you to talk us through what is in this investment plan over the next five years. When we talk about grid modernization, what are we actually doing? What are some of the specific things that we're gonna put some of our investment towards?

Guillaume Paradis 29:45

Yeah, so grid monetization is, is a category that gets talked about a lot, but maybe is, I would say, a bit misunderstood, I think, because it sounds futuristic, people assume we're doing a. And very different things. And ultimately, in my mind, it's better leveraging technology to get good outcomes for our customers. It's really that simple. So as you can imagine, you know, as I talked about, we're looking at assets that have expected life of 50- 60-70, years when some of our assets were first installed, things like communication technology, things like IT, operational technology, weren't as advanced as they are today. Our ability to collect data in real time was not what it is today, and so nada we're we have an opportunity to reinvest and replace all assets. It's important that we do so in a manner that will allow us to drive essentially more performance or better performance out of the assets we put in our system, so that can take various forms. As I mentioned, getting better real time information is one of those ways in which we can leverage technology, what that allows us to do is better respond to outages, offer a better service by being more aware of what's happening at any given point in time, getting better information in near real time as to what assets are posing a risk to reliability because they've been utilized heavily, or they've seen a lot of faults, for example. And so building in that technological infrastructure as a layer that enhances the traditional investments that we've always made is sort of the right thing to do in a context where you want to optimize where you spend your dollars, and you don't want to have to go back and reinvest on the same assets or in the same parts of our system multiple times, uh, over, you know, the coming years, in the coming decades. So the grid monetization portfolio, essentially is our opportunity to, you know, very strategically, identify where we can put in technology that will allow us to get more of our assets and provide a better service for our customers. So simple things like automated devices that would be automated switches that we install on our overhead infrastructure, underground infrastructure that gives us a capacity during an outage to shift demand around and resupply our customers more rapidly than we would have been able to otherwise, and that gives us a capacity to provide a better service under contingency scenario. So very simple, right? It's telemetry. It's communication to a device. And rather than have someone physically go in the field and, you know, switch customers and try to move demand around, we can do that remotely from our control center, likewise, in the control center, putting in more telemetry to identify and proactively suggest to our operators how to restore power to customers. Again, is a simple thing in by today's standard, right? It's not competent technology. It's not complicated software, but it's a layer that didn't exist previously, where we can have software, you know, model based. Its tool suggest how best to optimize the restoration of power. And as we do that, our trade operators get to review and take action in an informed manner. So grid, modernization, again, is about making the most of today's available technology while we reinvest in our distribution system to make sure that the quality of our service, and the breadth of the services we can provide align, well, going forward, with our customers aspirations, and provide a quality service for many decades to come.

Trevor Freeman 34:15

Yeah, and I think it's important to remember, and you know this, this little saying has been out there in the industry, and I've used it before. Of the electricity grid is the world's largest machine. Like the grid itself is a piece of technology, and like any technology, we would not be happy if it stayed stagnant, like we want it to evolve with the latest and greatest and operate better and more efficiently, and the grid is no different, and so part of grid modernization is just keeping up with what's out there to make sure we are delivering the service that we deliver in the best way, in the most advanced way, in the most efficient way possible. With that. Guillaume, what about things like, you know, we hear a lot about more distributed energy resources, so more small-scale generation or storage out there on the grid that might be owned by the utility, but it might not be. It might be customer owned. What are we doing from a grid modernization perspective, to enable more distributed energy resources to utilize that those assets more on our grid?

Guillaume Paradis 35:28

Yeah, so that's core to the evolution and we're proposing and working toward and and really, if you boil it down to, you know, simple kind of concept, it's really that traditionally, we've had a static model of how our grid needs to operate, and we planned accordingly. So, you know, power flows in one direction to certain size customers. They use electricity to use our energy, and then we protect, we coordinate, we control accordingly, and we're moving into an environment where customer behavior evolves in a dynamic fashion in near real time, depending on what prices are available in the electricity market, depending on what aspirations various Customers have, depending on what technology they want to deploy to manage their energy footprint, a customer may look different, really, from one day to the next, as far as the electricity system is concerned, because their demand might be less significant on a day where their solar panels are better able to generate energy on a day where they choose to leverage a large battery system that they've installed at their facilities to manage their demand. And so from an electricity system standpoint, we need a much better awareness of what is happening in near real time to be able to control and then respond and ultimately offer the right service for our customers. So that's a big change again, going back to the how we're going to enable that. It's again, the core elements of communication infrastructure, more telemetry, so that we can see what's happening in real time. Think sensors. Think smart meters. Think, you know, software system within our control room to take all that information, information in in real time and make sense of it, and then ultimately drive our decision making and support our customers in leveraging energy resources in an optimal way for their needs, by making sure that we're aware of what's happening and not create barriers that are artificial because we're not Sure, and when we're not sure, safety is paramount, and when you prioritize safety and you don't have information, you have to be very conservative in the decisions you make, and you may limit customers choices and behavioral, you know choices, by having to have that safety margin and that safety conscience kind of override everything else. So better telemetry, better real time information, more dynamic ways of controlling energy allow us to enable customers and support their aspirations ultimately,

Trevor Freeman 38:38

I mean, it really comes kind of full circle back to our job is to let our customers do what they want to do when it comes to energy, enable that, and that may be just making sure the power is there and available, but it also may be making sure that our grid is set up to allow them to generate and store and sort of interact with energy in the way that they want to. So those two things are quite parallel. Okay, great. Last category here is grid resilience, and this is an important one, and especially in the eyes of our customers, because, you know, we're that unique industry where most of the time, people don't think of us when they really do think about us, it's because the lights have gone off, because there's some event that has resulted in an outage. And I just want to ensure our customers, we try very, very hard to make sure that doesn't happen as much as we can't control everything. So we have this category of grid resilience in our investment plan, and we know that we're going to be seeing and we have already started to see more frequent extreme weather events that is increasing. It's not going down. So what are we doing in our investment plan, or what are we planning to do in order to enhance grid resiliency and withstand those extreme weather event?

Guillaume Paradis 40:01

Yeah, so the need for resilience, in my mind, comes from a couple places. So, you know, there are drivers that are external, so the operating environment is evolving to your point. We've seen a number of very impactful weather events over the last few years, whether it be historically impactful ice storms, we've seen tornadoes in our service territory in a way that we didn't previously. We saw derecho a couple years ago, which was, you know, by some measure, the most impactful storm in the history of our company. And so, we know what we plan to withstand has evolved, and we need to reflect that in the decisions we make when we invest in our infrastructure. That can take a few forms, but for grid resilience, we're targeting specific investments so we can identify, and have identified areas of our system that are more vulnerable. Imagine overhead infrastructure that is more exposed to stronger winds. And so, we can go in there and then target those areas, target those segments of our system and make them more robust, more resistant to those external factors. And so, we have assessed our entire service territory. We've studied, you know, our vulnerability to changing patterns, to changing weather events, and in a very targeted manner, identified areas where we'll take action over the next five years to boost resilience of our electricity system in those scenarios, and really just generally. The other element is, you know, while those external factors are evolving and creating a stress on our system, we're also seeing people's dependence on electricity is availability continue to grow, right? So, you know, we've been through this many times at this point, and I'm sure it's been covered on on this podcast a number of times. But you know, people's, you know, need for highly and readily available electricity continues to go up. Think, you know, remote work. Think our utilization of, you know, the internet and the technologies that support that people need access to power, you know, on an ongoing basis for a variety of reasons that support their lifestyles. And so, while the external factors have become and are becoming more challenging and creating a stress, we're also seeing customers relying more heavily on our service being available, and so those things combined make it sort of an imperative that we take action and ensure that our system is robust and can withstand those conditions that are upon us. So, we change our planning approach. We evolve our choices with respect to investments. It could be simpler things than you know, targeting areas and replacing specific infrastructure. It could be as simple as changing our standards so that when we install a new poll, we know that it can withstand harsher winds and heavier ice loading parameters, and we do that across all our investments. So that's a key point here, with respect to grid resilience. Yes, we have a targeted, sort of very strategic approach to building resilience, but we also do that across all our investment categories when we put money in our distribution system to make sure that, similar to the point we made about technology, you know, we invest in assets that will, you know, outlive many of us, and they need to be adequate and appropriate for the environment in which they will operate long term. So we change, you know, the choices we make. We change the materials we use to build the infrastructure that we put in our system, so that ultimately the service levels and service quality that our customers get to enjoy, you know, meets their expectations for decades to come.

Trevor Freeman 44:47

I think the idea like it's good that we have called out specifically some activities targeted at group resilience, but some of the other stuff that we've already talked about all. Support resilience. And you mentioned in the grid modernization part, you know, part of that is restoring power to most customers quicker in our growth and electrification part, I mean making sure that our grid can handle the new loads also lends itself to resiliency. So, all of this is in service of making sure that power is there for our customers when they need it, how they need it, and done in a sort of safe and affordable way. That's the goal of all these categories together.

Guillaume Paradis 45:33

Yeah, absolutely the you know, going back to the earlier point, the categories are helpful in identifying the major drivers. But ultimately, to your point, Trevor, they all support each other, and when our team plans the future of electricity system, they do so in an integrated manner that considers the various benefits that we can achieve by taking action and putting more money in our distribution system?

Trevor Freeman 46:02

Yeah, great. So that's a nice segue into his next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this is why it is an investment plan. We're out there outlining, these are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that. And so if we don't do this. If we said, look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas. What are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like quality of service, reliability, safety, et cetera, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now.

Guillaume Paradis 46:41

Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? We what we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 2026 to 2030 is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years. What would be an appropriate race rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues. We've looked at making how we make sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely, timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years, and then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers, because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers lives, yes, in a positive manner When our services reliable and power is available, but also financially from a cost standpoint, we add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives. And so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs the level of investments in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in in our or in setting the plans for the future. So doing so looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans. If we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on, we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers. And we took a very deliberate, you know, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments, down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place. So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing. You know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it. Just from difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner, so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community so fairly direct, and frankly, it's our obligation to connect. So we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult take more time on the reliability front. Again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80 year old wood pole doesn't get any younger and does it get any stronger if you wait five, six more years? And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those type of assets. And, you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those polls that are deteriorated are more likely to fail, even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for customers with respect to other outcomes like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources. That might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we're don't have good real time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest so old assets, you know, are inherently more likely to create failure risks, and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint. So we would have to, and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be, and are always, very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems. But reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences, and of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that, you know, we continue to deliver the best service we can. But that would become more difficult than it is today.

Trevor Freeman 53:15

I appreciate that that context of you know, you like me, like energy, and we want to do all the cool things, and we want to have the system that is absolutely able to handle every eventuality, but we have to balance that with what is the right level of investment, what is the right pace to go at? And I think, you know, having seen the process, there's been a lot of work over the last year plus to find that balance, and I think we've, we've hit that balance in terms of being able to move the ball forward while trying to maintain that sort of affordability aspect for customers. Last question here to kind of wrap it all up, and we've touched on this a few times in some of the other questions, but how does our investment plan align with that broader energy transition that that we talk about? You know, decarbonizing, reducing emissions, increasing sort of customer flexibility when it comes to their own generation and storage. And what role do you see Hydro Ottawa playing moving forward in that? And I know that this has already gotten a little bit of attention, but I'll give you a chance just to kind of tie a nice little bow around it at the end.

Guillaume Paradis 54:39

Yeah. So to your point, we did cover a few elements, how we enable those you know, sustainability aspirations. But you know it ranges from making it possible for large customers to shift a significant portion of their energy demand to a lower. A carbon source like electricity. So again, think a customer who would use natural gas for their facilities, and you know, for corporate reasons, decides to use electricity instead us connecting that extra demand and delivering power to them allows them to lower their foot their carbon footprint. So that would be on high end in terms of size and impact, all the way to enabling customers to install different technologies on their homes, within their homes, to reduce their carbon footprint and change how they use energy. So it could be as simple as buying EV and making sure that power is available within that neighborhood to supply demand from that EV. It could be them installing solar panels on their roof and try to export power back to us. And so that would tie to the earlier point around visibility and real time awareness that we need to have to make sure that we can make that possible. So again, you know the energy system, the electricity system is integrated in so many ways, and enabling our customers to achieve their sustainability outcomes, their desired outcomes in terms of energy use, comes from planning the energy system, the electricity distribution system, in a manner that supports that and that permits it. So again, going back to some categories, the grid modernization that we spoke about earlier fits right in there. So being aware allows us to allow and enable customers, and that becomes critical again, in an environment where things are very dynamic, and we want to support that dynamism, and we need to do so in a manner that's safe. So we need information, and we need technology that allows us to go get that information to support the decision making. So as we said, all the investments we're proposing in one way or another will support our supporting those decarbonization and emission reduction objectives that we all have.

Trevor Freeman 57:26

Right, yeah, it really comes back to the idea of us being and this is something that I certainly talk to our customers about. A lot of us being partners with our customers when it comes to their energy journeys, and that can be very active partners in the sense of the word, where we are involved in helping make decisions together on technology or strategies, or it can be very passive in that kind of residential model that you talked about, of just making sure the grid can be there in the way that the customer wants it to be there, and that's still a partnership that that we need to lean into and that we are kind of through this investment plan.

Guillaume Paradis 58:07

We're essentially underpinning people's aspirations when it comes to energy, and so we're there to make it possible for them to do what they're hoping to do. And you're absolutely right. We're seeing both ends of those conversations where some you know, go about their own choices and really don't need us involved, and our responsibility there is to make sure that we don't create a roadblock by not being prepared and not being equipped to respond to you know how they want to change their behavior, all the way to that partnership, where it's a very involved conversation, we're being brought in to fully explore all the options and work with stakeholders in essentially demystifying, or maybe more specifically, sort of see through some of the complexity that exists today in an environment that is much more dynamic again and offers a lot more options than people would have seen a few decades ago.

Trevor Freeman 59:11

Fantastic. Well, Guillaume, I think we'll leave it there. This has been great, and I appreciate you taking the time to help pick apart you know what? What can be a pretty complex, lengthy plan, but really boils down to building out the grid, continuing to do the great work that that the folks at Hydro Ottawa do, while also preparing for the future. So I appreciate your insight into this. As our listeners know we always end these interviews with a series of questions, and you're no different. So I'm going to dive, dive right into that. So Guillaume, what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

Guillaume Paradis 59:54

Yeah, so I'm probably going to get his name wrong, or at least the pronunciation, but it's a book called How The World Really Works by Vaclav Smil. Essentially, you know, he's a very pragmatic thinker with respect to how systems work, how our world is integrated, from a supply standpoint, from a geopolitical standpoint, and how that leads to outcomes in the real world. And think things like energy, think things like food supply. And what I like with his approach is that he breaks thing that things down, sort of from a first principle standpoint, to try to help explain why certain things may or may not be possible, and in an environment where, and maybe that's just my perspective, but I think today, there's a lot of big picture, you know, broad opinions being shared by people who may or may not always be very knowledgeable or have the expertise in certain fields. It's nice to see someone kind of break things down to then try to support, or in some cases, dispel certain misconceptions. So really nice approach. He has a number of books that are similar in nature, some cases a bit dense to read through, frankly, but I would say the how the world really works, book is easier to digest and it's it's a good entry into kind of his works and his approach to his studies. The other thing that's a plus maybe, is that he's based out of Winnipeg in Canadians, so it's great to have a mind like his, you know, contributing to the discourse in Canada.

Trevor Freeman 1:01:59

Awesome. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show that you think everyone should check out?

Guillaume Paradis 1:02:05

Yeah, that's a little harder. I think maybe I'll go to an old classic. For me. I'm always impressed with extreme creativity, I'll call it - in whatever forms. I think it's neat to see how people can envision a world - or create a world. And so an example for me was the Grand Budapest Hotel movie by Wes Anderson, so I think people are familiar with his work by now. I just like the combination of humor color, color like the creation of a world that doesn't quite exist but resembles one we might know. And just, you know, it's, it's a way of expressing oneself that is so interesting, so different. He does it really, really well. And, you know, I find it sort of like awe inspiring to go back to those kinds of movies and look at, certainly, there's all sorts of good content these days that's being produced, but I think this one is kind of withstood the test of time so far and kind of brings you to a different place. So I'll point to that.

Trevor Freeman 1:03:17

Yeah, it's one of those where it's not just about the story. Watching that movie is a bit of an experience. And all the ways that you just said, you know, there's like, an artificial aspect to it. There's that sort of mental, emotional side of it, and then there's the story itself, with the humor and everything. So yeah, that's a great one. I really like that.

Guillaume Paradis 1:03:35

Always fascinating to think someone was able to come up with that, right? Like that. Yeah, totally have all like, the attention to details, the way in which the storylines are integrated, the way in which the decors, the images are graphed like it's just remarkable. And, and I think in anything, it's really cool to see people who are sort of masters at their art, right? And whatever for and there's all sorts of other examples. But that one, you know, came to mind.

Trevor Freeman 1:04:09

Yeah, very cool. If you had a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Guillaume Paradis 1:04:13

I think for me, it'd be somewhere very far north. I think it's on the list somewhere for the next few years, but just getting access to lands scenery that you wouldn't otherwise is really cool concept, maybe even spaces that are a bit less impacted by human you know, behavior and presence. So I just think a flight to somewhere random that maybe doesn't even have a name, but is in between two small villages that can only be accessed by a plane. I think that would be cool.

Trevor Freeman 1:04:58

Yeah, that does sound very cool. I like that. Who is someone that you admire?

Guillaume Paradis 1:05:03

Yeah, so my wife, for sure, I think that's sort of the foundation of a healthy relationship. You should have some admiration for your partner, and I absolutely do more generally. I would just point to anyone in our lives, and I think we all know people like that who spend a large amount of their time making other people's lives better. I could pick, you know, a celebrity of some kind, or politician of some kind, or even a historical figure, but, you know, I think in general, it doesn't have to be that complicated, people who just invest a lot of their time making sure others lives are better. I think that's something we should all admire, aspire to, you know, emulate, if we can, and just recognize as well. Because a lot of the times people do that, the people who do it well, don't do it for recognition. It doesn't mean they don't deserve it. And I think we should kind of try to promote it, you know, recognize it in our lives, and encourage it and emulate it, if we can.

Trevor Freeman 1:06:20

Fantastic. Well said. Last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you are particularly excited about?

Guillaume Paradis 1:06:25

Yeah, so I've been in the sector for about 20 years now, in fact, longer than that. My father worked for Hydro Quebec for many decades. So think we spent a lot of time talking about the future and getting excited about a future that was to come, and just the fact that we're living it now that we're actually shaping it, is pretty exciting, maybe even not appreciated to its full extent. And I think having a chance to contribute now is really awesome, and to whatever extent we can as well, I'm trying to encourage as many people as possible to join our sector, bring various backgrounds, you know, expertise, knowledge to helping us make decisions about how energy is going to be used in our society going forward, and how we can make the most this confluence of factors that create the window of opportunity to change things and make them evolve. And so for those of us who are part of it, let's not take it for granted, and let's make sure that we contribute to the full extent of our capabilities.

Trevor Freeman 1:07:45

Awesome, great, great way to wrap this up, I agree completely. Guillaume, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And sharing your thoughts with us. Really appreciate you coming on the show.

Guillaume Paradis 1:07:56

Thanks. Trevor, pleasure.

Trevor Freeman 1:07:59

Great take care. Well, there you have it everybody that was our last episode of the season before our summer break. Our regular listeners will know that we typically take a break over the summer to regroup and work on content and plan out the next year. But don't worry, we will be still releasing episodes every two weeks. They will just be rewind episodes, and we'll take a look back at some of our favorite episodes or things that we feel are particularly relevant for what's going on right now. So keep tuning in and listen to those, and we will be back with brand new content in September. Take care and have a safe summer. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review and review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Summer rewind: Greg Lindsay is an urban tech expert and a Senior Fellow at MIT. He’s also a two-time Jeopardy champion and the only human to go undefeated against IBM’s Watson. Greg joins thinkenergy to talk about how artificial intelligence (AI) is reshaping how we manage, consume, and produce energy—from personal devices to provincial grids, its rapid growth to the rising energy demand from AI itself. Listen in to learn how AI impacts our energy systems and what it means individually and industry-wide.

Related links:

● Greg Lindsay website: https://greglindsay.org/

● Greg Lindsay on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-lindsay-8b16952/

● International Energy Agency (IEA): https://www.iea.org/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.

Trevor Freeman 00:55

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. Artificial intelligence, or AI, is a term that you're likely seeing and hearing everywhere today, and with good reason, the effectiveness and efficiency of today's AI, along with the ever increasing applications and use cases mean that in just the past few years, AI went from being a little bit fringe, maybe a little bit theoretical to very real and likely touching everyone's day to day lives in ways that we don't even notice, and we're just at the beginning of what looks to be a wave of many different ways that AI will shape and influence our society and our lives in the years to come. And the world of energy is no different. AI has the potential to change how we manage energy at all levels, from our individual devices and homes and businesses all the way up to our grids at the local, provincial and even national and international levels. At the same time, AI is also a massive consumer of energy, and the proliferation of AI data centers is putting pressure on utilities for more and more power at an unprecedented pace. But before we dive into all that, I also think it will be helpful to define what AI is. After all, the term isn't new. Like me, many of our listeners may have grown up hearing about Skynet from Terminator, or how from 2001 A Space Odyssey, but those malignant, almost sentient versions of AI aren't really what we're talking about here today. And to help shed some light on both what AI is as well as what it can do and how it might influence the world of energy, my guest today is Greg Lindsay, to put it in technical jargon, Greg's bio is super neat, so I do want to take time to run through it properly. Greg is a non resident Senior Fellow of MIT's future urban collectives lab Arizona State University's threat casting lab and the Atlantic Council's Scowcroft center for strategy and security. Most recently, he was a 2022-2023 urban tech Fellow at Cornell Tech's Jacobs Institute, where he explored the implications of AI and augmented reality at an urban scale. Previously, he was an urbanist in resident, which is a pretty cool title, at BMW minis urban tech accelerator, urban X, as well as the director of Applied Research at Montreal's new cities and Founding Director of Strategy at its mobility focused offshoot, co motion. He's advised such firms as Intel, Samsung, Audi, Hyundai, IKEA and Starbucks, along with numerous government entities such as 10 Downing Street, us, Department of Energy and NATO. And finally, and maybe coolest of all, Greg is also a two time Jeopardy champion and the only human to go undefeated against IBM's Watson. So on that note, Greg Lindsey, welcome to the show.

Greg Lindsay 04:14

Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Trevor,

Trevor Freeman 04:16

So Greg, we're here to talk about AI and the impacts that AI is going to have on energy, but AI is a bit of one of those buzzwords that we hear out there in a number of different spheres today. So let's start by setting the stage of what exactly we're talking about. So what do we mean when we say AI or artificial intelligence?

Speaker 1 04:37

Well, I'd say the first thing to keep in mind is that it is neither artificial nor intelligence. It's actually composites of many human hands making it. And of course, it's not truly intelligent either. I think there's at least two definitions for the layman's purposes. One is statistical machine learning. You know that is the previous generation of AI, we could say, doing deep, deep statistical analysis, looking for patterns fitting to. Patterns doing prediction. There's a great book, actually, by some ut professors at monk called prediction machines, which that was a great way of thinking about machine learning and sense of being able to do large scale prediction at scale. And that's how I imagine hydro, Ottawa and others are using this to model out network efficiencies and predictive maintenance and all these great uses. And then the newer, trendier version, of course, is large language models, your quads, your chat gpts, your others, which are based on transformer models, which is a whole series of work that many Canadians worked on, including Geoffrey Hinton and others. And this is what has produced the seemingly magical abilities to produce text and images on demand and large scale analysis. And that is the real power hungry beast that we think of as AI today.

Trevor Freeman 05:42

Right! So different types of AI. I just want to pick those apart a little bit. When you say machine learning, it's kind of being able to repetitively look at something or a set of data over and over and over again. And because it's a computer, it can do it, you know, 1000s or millions of times a second, and learn what, learn how to make decisions based on that. Is that fair to say?

Greg Lindsay 06:06

That's fair to say. And the thing about that is, is like you can train it on an output that you already know, large language models are just vomiting up large parts of pattern recognition, which, again, can feel like magic because of our own human brains doing it. But yeah, machine learning, you can, you know, you can train it to achieve outcomes. You can overfit the models where it like it's trained too much in the past, but, yeah, it's a large scale probabilistic prediction of things, which makes it so powerful for certain uses.

Trevor Freeman 06:26

Yeah, one of the neatest explanations or examples I've seen is, you know, you've got these language models where it seems like this AI, whether it's chat, DBT or whatever, is writing really well, like, you know, it's improving our writing. It's making things sound better. And it seems like it's got a brain behind it, but really, what it's doing is it's going out there saying, What have millions or billions of other people written like this? And how can I take the best things of that? And it can just do that really quickly, and it's learned that that model, so that's super helpful to understand what we're talking about here. So obviously, in your work, you look at the impact of AI on a number of different aspects of our world, our society. What we're talking about here today is particularly the impact of AI when it comes to energy. And I'd like to kind of bucketize our conversation a little bit today, and the first area I want to look at is, what will ai do when it comes to energy for the average Canadian? Let's say so in my home, in my business, how I move around? So I'll start with that. It's kind of a high level conversation. Let's start talking about the different ways that AI will impact you know that our average listener here?

Speaker 1 07:41

Um, yeah, I mean, we can get into a discussion about what it means for the average Canadian, and then also, of course, what it means for Canada in the world as well, because I just got back from South by Southwest in Austin, and, you know, for the second, third year in row, AI was on everyone's lips. But really it's the energy. Is the is the bottleneck. It's the forcing factor. Everyone talked about it, the fact that all the data centers we can get into that are going to be built in the direction of energy. So, so, yeah, energy holds the key to the puzzle there. But, um, you know, from the average gain standpoint, I mean, it's a question of, like, how will these tools actually play out, you know, inside of the companies that are using this, right? And that was a whole other discussion too. It's like, okay, we've been playing around with these tools for two, three years now, what do they actually use to deliver value of your large language model? So I've been saying this for 10 years. If you look at the older stuff you could start with, like smart thermostats, even look at the potential savings of this, of basically using machine learning to optimize, you know, grid optimize patterns of usage, understanding, you know, the ebbs and flows of the grid, and being able to, you know, basically send instructions back and forth. So you know there's stats. You know that, basically you know that you know you could save 10 to 25% of electricity bills. You know, based on this, you could reduce your heating bills by 10 to 15% again, it's basically using this at very large scales of the scale of hydro Ottawa, bigger, to understand this sort of pattern usage. But even then, like understanding like how weather forecasts change, and pulling that data back in to basically make fine tuning adjustments to the thermostats and things like that. So that's one stands out. And then, you know, we can think about longer term. I mean, yeah, lots have been lots has been done on imagining, like electric mobility, of course, huge in Canada, and what that's done to sort of change the overall energy mix virtual power plants. This is something that I've studied, and we've been writing about at Fast Company. At Fast Company beyond for 20 years, imagining not just, you know, the ability to basically, you know, feed renewable electricity back into the grid from people's solar or from whatever sources they have there, but the ability of utilities to basically go in and fine tune, to have that sort of demand shaping as well. And then I think the most interesting stuff, at least in demos, and also blockchain, which has had many theoretical uses, and I've got to see a real one. But one of the best theoretical ones was being able to create neighborhood scale utilities. Basically my cul de sac could have one, and we could trade clean electrons off of our solar panels through our batteries and home scale batteries, using Blockchain to basically balance this out. Yeah, so there's lots of potential, but yeah, it comes back to the notion of people want cheaper utility bills. I did this piece 10 years ago for the Atlantic Council on this we looked at a multi country survey, and the only reason anybody wanted a smart home, which they just were completely skeptical about, was to get those cheaper utility bills. So people pay for that.

Trevor Freeman 10:19

I think it's an important thing to remember, obviously, especially for like the nerds like me, who part of my driver is, I like that cool new tech. I like that thing that I can play with and see my data. But for most people, no matter what we're talking about here, when it comes to that next technology, the goal is make my life a little bit easier, give me more time or whatever, and make things cheaper. And I think especially in the energy space, people aren't putting solar panels on their roof because it looks great. And, yeah, maybe people do think it looks great, but they're putting it up there because they want cheaper electricity. And it's going to be the same when it comes to batteries. You know, there's that add on of resiliency and reliability, but at the end of the day, yeah, I want my bill to be cheaper. And what I'm hearing from you is some of the things we've already seen, like smart thermostats get better as AI gets better. Is that fair to say?

Greg Lindsay 11:12

Well, yeah, on the machine learning side, that you know, you get ever larger data points. This is why data is the coin of the realm. This is why there's a race to collect data on everything. Is why every business model is data collection and everything. Because, yes, not only can they get better, but of course, you know, you compile enough and eventually start finding statistical inferences you never meant to look for. And this is why I've been involved. Just as a side note, for example, of cities that have tried to implement their own data collection of electric scooters and eventually electric vehicles so they could understand these kinds of patterns, it's really the key to anything. And so it's that efficiency throughput which raises some really interesting philosophical questions, particularly about AI like, this is the whole discussion on deep seek. Like, if you make the models more efficient, do you have a Jevons paradox, which is the paradox of, like, the more energy you save through efficiency, the more you consume because you've made it cheaper. So what does this mean that you know that Canadian energy consumption is likely to go up the cleaner and cheaper the electrons get. It's one of those bedeviling sort of functions.

Trevor Freeman 12:06

Yeah interesting. That's definitely an interesting way of looking at it. And you referenced this earlier, and I will talk about this. But at the macro level, the amount of energy needed for these, you know, AI data centers in order to do all this stuff is, you know, we're seeing that explode.

Greg Lindsay 12:22

Yeah, I don't know that. Canadian statistics my fingertips, but I brought this up at Fast Company, like, you know, the IEA, I think International Energy Agency, you know, reported a 4.3% growth in the global electricity grid last year, and it's gonna be 4% this year. That does not sound like much. That is the equivalent of Japan. We're adding in Japan every year to the grid for at least the next two to three years. Wow. And that, you know, that's global South, air conditioning and other needs here too, but that the data centers on top is like the tip of the spear. It's changed all this consumption behavior, where now we're seeing mothballed coal plants and new plants and Three Mile Island come back online, as this race for locking up electrons, for, you know, the race to build God basically, the number of people in AI who think they're literally going to build weekly godlike intelligences, they'll, they won't stop at any expense. And so they will buy as much energy as they can get.

Trevor Freeman 13:09

Yeah, well, we'll get to that kind of grid side of things in a minute. Let's stay at the home first. So when I look at my house, we talked about smart thermostats. We're seeing more and more automation when it comes to our homes. You know, we can program our lights and our door locks and all this kind of stuff. What does ai do in order to make sure that stuff is contributing to efficiency? So I want to do all those fun things, but use the least amount of energy possible.

Greg Lindsay 13:38

Well, you know, I mean, there's, again, there's various metrics there to basically, sort of, you know, program your lights. And, you know, Nest is, you know, Google. Nest is an example of this one, too, in terms of basically learning your ebb and flow and then figuring out how to optimize it over the course of the day. So you can do that, you know, we've seen, again, like the home level. We've seen not only the growth in solar panels, but also in those sort of home battery integration. I was looking up that Tesla Powerwall was doing just great in Canada, until the last couple of months. I assume so, but I it's been, it's been heartening to see that, yeah, this sort of embrace of home energy integration, and so being able to level out, like, peak flow off the grid, so Right? Like being able to basically, at moments of peak demand, to basically draw on your own local resources and reduce that overall strain. So there's been interesting stuff there. But I want to focus for a moment on, like, terms of thinking about new uses. Because, you know, again, going back to how AI will influence the home and automation. You know, Jensen Wong of Nvidia has talked about how this will be the year of robotics. Google, Gemini just applied their models to robotics. There's startups like figure there's, again, Tesla with their optimists, and, yeah, there's a whole strain of thought that we're about to see, like home robotics, perhaps a dream from like, the 50s. I think this is a very Disney World esque Epcot Center, yeah, with this idea of jetsy, yeah, of having home robots doing work. You can see concept videos a figure like doing the actual vacuuming. I mean, we invented Roombas to this, but, but it also, I, you know, I've done a lot of work. Our own thinking around electric delivery vehicles. We could talk a lot about drones. We could talk a lot about the little robots that deliver meals on the sidewalk. There's a lot of money in business models about increasing access and people needing to maybe move less, to drive and do all these trips to bring it to them. And that's a form of home automation, and that's all batteries. That is all stuff off the grid too. So AI is that enable those things, these things that can think and move and fly and do stuff and do services on your behalf, and so people might find this huge new source of demand from that as well.

Trevor Freeman 15:29

Yeah, that's I hadn't really thought about the idea that all the all these sort of conveniences and being able to summon them to our homes cause us to move around less, which also impacts transportation, which is another area I kind of want to get to. And I know you've, you've talked a little bit about E mobility, so where do you see that going? And then, how does AI accelerate that transition, or accelerate things happening in that space?

Greg Lindsay 15:56

Yeah, I mean, I again, obviously the EV revolutions here Canada like, one of the epicenters Canada, Norway there, you know, that still has the vehicle rebates and things. So, yeah. I mean, we've seen, I'm here in Montreal, I think we've got, like, you know, 30 to 13% of sales is there, and we've got our 2035, mandate. So, yeah. I mean, you see this push, obviously, to harness all of Canada's clean, mostly hydro electricity, to do this, and, you know, reduce its dependence on fossil fuels for either, you know, Climate Change Politics reasons, but also just, you know, variable energy prices. So all of that matters. But, you know, I think the key to, like the electric mobility revolution, again, is, is how it's going to merge with AI and it's, you know, it's not going to just be the autonomous, self driving car, which is sort of like the horseless carriage of autonomy. It's gonna be all this other stuff, you know. My friend Dan Hill was in China, and he was thinking about like, electric scooters, you know. And I mentioned this to hydro Ottawa, like, the electric scooter is one of the leading causes of how we've taken internal combustion engine vehicles offline across the world, mostly in China, and put people on clean electric motors. What happens when you take those and you make those autonomous, and you do it with, like, deep seek and some cameras, and you sort of weld it all together so you could have a world of a lot more stuff in motion, and not just this world where we have to drive as much. And that, to me, is really exciting, because that changes, like urban patterns, development patterns, changes how you move around life, those kinds of things as well. That's that might be a little farther out, but, but, yeah, this sort of like this big push to build out domestic battery industries, to build charging points and the sort of infrastructure there, I think it's going to go in direction, but it doesn't look anything like, you know, a sedan or an SUV that just happens to be electric.

Trevor Freeman 17:33

I think that's a the step change is change the drive train of the existing vehicles we have, you know, an internal combustion to a battery. The exponential change is exactly what you're saying. It's rethinking this.

Greg Lindsay 17:47

Yeah, Ramesam and others have pointed out, I mean, again, like this, you know, it's, it's really funny to see this pushback on EVs, you know. I mean, I love a good, good roar of an internal combustion engine myself, but, but like, you know, Ramesam was an energy analyst, has pointed out that, like, you know, EVS were more cost competitive with ice cars in 2018 that's like, nearly a decade ago. And yeah, the efficiency of electric motors, particularly regenerative braking and everything, it just blows the cost curves away of ice though they will become the equivalent of keeping a thorough brat around your house kind of thing. Yeah, so, so yeah, it's just, it's that overall efficiency of the drive train. And that's the to me, the interesting thing about both electric motors, again, of autonomy is like, those are general purpose technologies. They get cheaper and smaller as they evolve under Moore's Law and other various laws, and so they get to apply to more and more stuff.

Trevor Freeman 18:32

Yeah. And then when you think about once, we kind of figure that out, and we're kind of already there, or close to it, if not already there, then it's opening the door to those other things you're talking about. Of, well, do we, does everybody need to have that car in their driveway? Are we rethinking how we're actually just doing transportation in general? And do we need a delivery truck? Or can it be delivery scooter? Or what does that look like?

Greg Lindsay 18:54

Well, we had a lot of those discussions for a long time, particularly in the mobility space, right? Like, and like ride hailing, you know, like, oh, you know, that was always the big pitch of an Uber is, you know, your car's parked in your driveway, like 94% of the time. You know, what happens if you're able to have no mobility? Well, we've had 15 years of Uber and these kinds of services, and we still have as many cars. But people are also taking this for mobility. It's additive. And I raised this question, this notion of like, it's just sort of more and more, more options, more availability, more access. Because the same thing seems to be going on with energy now too. You know, listeners been following along, like the conversation in Houston, you know, a week or two ago at Sarah week, like it's the whole notion of energy realism. And, you know, there's the new book out, more is more is more, which is all about the fact that we've never had an energy transition. We just kept piling up. Like the world burned more biomass last year than it did in 1900 it burned more coal last year than it did at the peak of coal. Like these ages don't really end. They just become this sort of strata as we keep piling energy up on top of it. And you know, I'm trying to sound the alarm that we won't have an energy transition. What that means for climate change? But similar thing, it's. This rebound effect, the Jevons paradox, named after Robert Stanley Jevons in his book The question of coal, where he noted the fact that, like, England was going to need more and more coal. So it's a sobering thought. But, like, I mean, you know, it's a glass half full, half empty in many ways, because the half full is like increasing technological options, increasing changes in lifestyle. You can live various ways you want, but, but, yeah, it's like, I don't know if any of it ever really goes away. We just get more and more stuff,

Trevor Freeman 20:22

Exactly, well. And, you know, to hear you talk about the robotics side of things, you know, looking at the home, yeah, more, definitely more. Okay, so we talked about kind of home automation. We've talked about transportation, how we get around. What about energy management? And I think about this at the we'll talk about the utility side again in a little bit. But, you know, at my house, or for my own personal use in my life, what is the role of, like, sort of machine learning and AI, when it comes to just helping me manage my own energy better and make better decisions when it comes to energy? ,

Greg Lindsay 20:57

Yeah, I mean, this is where it like comes in again. And you know, I'm less and less of an expert here, but I've been following this sort of discourse evolve. And right? It's the idea of, you know, yeah, create, create. This the set of tools in your home, whether it's solar panels or batteries or, you know, or Two Way Direct, bi directional to the grid, however it works. And, yeah, and people, you know, given this option of savings, and perhaps, you know, other marketing messages there to curtail behavior. You know? I mean, I think the short answer the question is, like, it's an app people want, an app that tell them basically how to increase the efficiency of their house or how to do this. And I should note that like, this has like been the this is the long term insight when it comes to like energy and the clean tech revolution. Like my Emery Levin says this great line, which I've always loved, which is, people don't want energy. They want hot showers and cold beer. And, you know, how do you, how do you deliver those things through any combination of sticks and carrots, basically like that. So, So, hence, why? Like, again, like, you know, you know, power walls, you know, and, and, and, you know, other sort of AI controlled batteries here that basically just sort of smooth out to create the sort of optimal flow of electrons into your house, whether that's coming drive directly off the grid or whether it's coming out of your backup and then recharging that the time, you know, I mean, the surveys show, like, more than half of Canadians are interested in this stuff, you know, they don't really know. I've got one set here, like, yeah, 61% are interested in home energy tech, but only 27 understand, 27% understand how to optimize them. So, yeah. So people need, I think, perhaps, more help in handing that over. And obviously, what's exciting for the, you know, the utility level is, like, you know, again, aggregate all that individual behavior together and you get more models that, hope you sort of model this out, you know, at both greater scale and ever more fine grained granularity there. So, yeah, exactly. So I think it's really interesting, you know, I don't know, like, you know, people have gamified it. What was it? I think I saw, like, what is it? The affordability fund trust tried to basically gamify AI energy apps, and it created various savings there. But a lot of this is gonna be like, as a combination like UX design and incentives design and offering this to people too, about, like, why you should want this and money's one reason, but maybe there's others.

Trevor Freeman 22:56

Yeah, and we talk about in kind of the utility sphere, we talk about how customers, they don't want all the data, and then have to go make their own decisions. They want those decisions to be made for them, and they want to say, look, I want to have you tell me the best rate plan to be on. I want to have you automatically switch me to the best rate plan when my consumption patterns change and my behavior chat patterns change. That doesn't exist today, but sort of that fast decision making that AI brings will let that become a reality sometime in the future,

Greg Lindsay 23:29

And also in theory, this is where LLMs come into play. Is like, you know, to me, what excites me the most about that is the first time, like having a true natural language interface, like having being able to converse with an, you know, an AI, let's hopefully not chat bot. I think we're moving out on chat bots, but some sort of sort of instantiation of an AI to be like, what plan should I be on? Can you tell me what my behavior is here and actually having some sort of real language conversation with it? Not decision trees, not event statements, not chat bots.

Trevor Freeman 23:54

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so we've kind of teased around this idea of looking at the utility levels, obviously, at hydro Ottawa, you referenced this just a minute ago. We look at all these individual cases, every home that has home automation or solar storage, and we want to aggregate that and understand what, what can we do to help manage the grid, help manage all these new energy needs, shift things around. So let's talk a little bit about the role that AI can play at the utility scale in helping us manage the grid.

Greg Lindsay 24:28

All right? Well, yeah, there's couple ways to approach it. So one, of course, is like, let's go back to, like, smart meters, right? Like, and this is where I don't know how many hydro Ottawa has, but I think, like, BC Hydro has like, 2 million of them, sometimes they get politicized, because, again, this gets back to this question of, like, just, just how much nanny state you want. But, you know, you know, when you reach the millions, like, yeah, you're able to get that sort of, you know, obviously real time, real time usage, real time understanding. And again, if you can do that sort of grid management piece where you can then push back, it's visual game changer. But, but yeah. I mean, you know, yeah, be. See hydro is pulling in. I think I read like, like, basically 200 million data points a day. So that's a lot to train various models on. And, you know, I don't know exactly the kind of savings they have, but you can imagine there, whether it's, you know, them, or Toronto Hydro, or hydro Ottawa and others creating all these monitoring points. And again, this is the thing that bedells me, by the way, just philosophically about modern life, the notion of like, but I don't want you to be collecting data off me at all times, but look at what you can do if you do It's that constant push pull of some sort of combination of privacy and agency, and then just the notion of like statistics, but, but there you are, but, but, yeah, but at the grid level, then I mean, like, yeah. I mean, you can sort of do the same thing where, like, you know, I mean, predictive maintenance is the obvious one, right? I have been writing about this for large enterprise software companies for 20 years, about building these data points, modeling out the lifetime of various important pieces equipment, making sure you replace them before you have downtime and terrible things happen. I mean, as we're as we're discussing this, look at poor Heathrow Airport. I am so glad I'm not flying today, electrical substation blowing out two days of the world's most important hub offline. So that's where predictive maintenance comes in from there. And, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I again, you know, modeling out, you know, energy flow to prevent grid outages, whether that's, you know, the ice storm here in Quebec a couple years ago. What was that? April 23 I think it was, yeah, coming up in two years. Or our last ice storm, we're not the big one, but that one, you know, where we had big downtime across the grid, like basically monitoring that and then I think the other big one for AI is like, Yeah, is this, this notion of having some sort of decision support as well, too, and sense of, you know, providing scenarios and modeling out at scale the potential of it? And I don't think, I don't know about this in a grid case, but the most interesting piece I wrote for Fast Company 20 years ago was an example, ago was an example of this, which was a fledgling air taxi startup, but they were combining an agent based model, so using primitive AI to create simple rules for individual agents and build a model of how they would behave, which you can create much more complex models. Now we could talk about agents and then marrying that to this kind of predictive maintenance and operations piece, and marrying the two together. And at that point, you could have a company that didn't exist, but that could basically model itself in real time every day in the life of what it is. You can create millions and millions and millions of Monte Carlo operations. And I think that's where perhaps both sides of AI come together truly like the large language models and agents, and then the predictive machine learning. And you could basically hydro or others, could build this sort of deep time machine where you can model out all of these scenarios, millions and millions of years worth, to understand how it flows and contingencies as well. And that's where it sort of comes up. So basically something happens. And like, not only do you have a set of plans, you have an AI that has done a million sets of these plans, and can imagine potential next steps of this, or where to deploy resources. And I think in general, that's like the most powerful use of this, going back to prediction machines and just being able to really model time in a way that we've never had that capability before. And so you probably imagine the use is better than I.

Trevor Freeman 27:58

Oh man, it's super fascinating, and it's timely. We've gone through the last little while at hydro Ottawa, an exercise of updating our playbook for emergencies. So when there are outages, what kind of outage? What's the sort of, what are the trigger points to go from, you know, what we call a level one to a level two to level three. But all of this is sort of like people hours that are going into that, and we're thinking through these scenarios, and we've got a handful of them, and you're just kind of making me think, well, yeah, what if we were able to model that out? And you bring up this concept of agents, let's tease into that a little bit explain what you mean when you're talking about agents.

Greg Lindsay 28:36

Yeah, so agentic systems, as the term of art is, AI instantiations that have some level of autonomy. And the archetypal example of this is the Stanford Smallville experiment, where they took basically a dozen large language models and they gave it an architecture where they could give it a little bit of backstory, ruminate on it, basically reflect, think, decide, and then act. And in this case, they used it to plan a Valentine's Day party. So they played out real time, and the LLM agents, like, even played matchmaker. They organized the party, they sent out invitations, they did these sorts of things. Was very cute. They put it out open source, and like, three weeks later, another team of researchers basically put them to work writing software programs. So you can see they organized their own workflow. They made their own decisions. There was a CTO. They fact check their own work. And this is evolving into this grand vision of, like, 1000s, millions of agents, just like, just like you spin up today an instance of Amazon Web Services to, like, host something in the cloud. You're going to spin up an agent Nvidia has talked about doing with healthcare and others. So again, coming back to like, the energy implications of that, because it changes the whole pattern. Instead of huge training runs requiring giant data centers. You know, it's these agents who are making all these calls and doing more stuff at the edge, but, um, but yeah, in this case, it's the notion of, you know, what can you put the agents to work doing? And I bring this up again, back to, like, predictive maintenance, or for hydro Ottawa, there's another amazing paper called virtual in real life. And I chatted with one of the principal authors. It created. A half dozen agents who could play tour guide, who could direct you to a coffee shop, who do these sorts of things, but they weren't doing it in a virtual world. They were doing it in the real one. And to do it in the real world, you took the agent, you gave them a machine vision capability, so added that model so they could recognize objects, and then you set them loose inside a digital twin of the world, in this case, something very simple, Google Street View. And so in the paper, they could go into like New York Central Park, and they could count every park bench and every waste bin and do it in seconds and be 99% accurate. And so agents were monitoring the landscape. Everything's up, because you can imagine this in the real world too, that we're going to have all the time. AIS roaming the world, roaming these virtual maps, these digital twins that we build for them and constantly refresh from them, from camera data, from sensor data, from other stuff, and tell us what this is. And again, to me, it's really exciting, because that's finally like an operating system for the internet of things that makes sense, that's not so hardwired that you can ask agents, can you go out and look for this for me? Can you report back on this vital system for me? And they will be able to hook into all of these kinds of representations of real time data where they're emerging from, and give you aggregated reports on this one. And so, you know, I think we have more visibility in real time into the real world than we've ever had before.

Trevor Freeman 31:13

Yeah, I want to, I want to connect a few dots here for our listeners. So bear with me for a second. Greg. So for our listeners, there was a podcast episode we did about a year ago on our grid modernization roadmap, and we talked about one of the things we're doing with grid modernization at hydro Ottawa and utilities everywhere doing this is increasing the sensor data from our grid. So we're, you know, right now, we've got visibility sort of to our station level, sometimes one level down to some switches. But in the future, we'll have sensors everywhere on our grid, every switch, every device on our grid, will have a sensor gathering data. Obviously, you know, like you said earlier, millions and hundreds of millions of data points every second coming in. No human can kind of make decisions on that, and what you're describing is, so now we've got all this data points, we've got a network of information out there, and you could create this agent to say, Okay, you are. You're my transformer agent. Go out there and have a look at the run temperature of every transformer on the network, and tell me where the anomalies are, which ones are running a half a degree or two degrees warmer than they should be, and report back. And now I know hydro Ottawa, that the controller, the person sitting in the room, knows, Hey, we should probably go roll a truck and check on that transformer, because maybe it's getting end of life. Maybe it's about to go and you can do that across the entire grid. That's really fascinating,

Greg Lindsay 32:41

And it's really powerful, because, I mean, again, these conversations 20 years ago at IoT, you know you're going to have statistical triggers, and you would aggregate these data coming off this, and there was a lot of discussion there, but it was still very, like hardwired, and still very Yeah, I mean, I mean very probabilistic, I guess, for a word that went with agents like, yeah, you've now created an actual thing that can watch those numbers and they can aggregate from other systems. I mean, lots, lots of potential there hasn't quite been realized, but it's really exciting stuff. And this is, of course, where that whole direction of the industry is flowing. It's on everyone's lips, agents.

Trevor Freeman 33:12

Yeah. Another term you mentioned just a little bit ago that I want you to explain is a digital twin. So tell us what a digital twin is.

Greg Lindsay 33:20

So a digital twin is, well, the matrix. Perhaps you could say something like this for listeners of a certain age, but the digital twin is the idea of creating a model of a piece of equipment, of a city, of the world, of a system. And it is, importantly, it's physics based. It's ideally meant to represent and capture the real time performance of the physical object it's based on, and in this digital representation, when something happens in the physical incarnation of it, it triggers a corresponding change in state in the digital twin, and then vice versa. In theory, you know, you could have feedback loops, again, a lot of IoT stuff here, if you make changes virtually, you know, perhaps it would cause a change in behavior of the system or equipment, and the scales can change from, you know, factory equipment. Siemens, for example, does a lot of digital twin work on this. You know, SAP, big, big software companies have thought about this. But the really crazy stuff is, like, what Nvidia is proposing. So first they started with a digital twin. They very modestly called earth two, where they were going to model all the weather and climate systems of the planet down to like the block level. There's a great demo of like Jensen Wong walking you through a hurricane, typhoons striking the Taipei, 101, and how, how the wind currents are affecting the various buildings there, and how they would change that more recently, what Nvidia is doing now is, but they just at their big tech investor day, they just partner with General Motors and others to basically do autonomous cars. And what's crucial about it, they're going to train all those autonomous vehicles in an NVIDIA built digital twin in a matrix that will act, that will be populated by agents that will act like people, people ish, and they will be able to run millions of years of autonomous vehicle training in this and this is how they plan to catch up to. Waymo or, you know, if Tesla's robotaxis are ever real kind of thing, you know, Waymo built hardwired like trained on real world streets, and that's why they can only operate in certain operating domain environments. Nvidia is gambling that with large language models and transformer models combined with digital twins, you can do these huge leapfrog effects where you can basically train all sorts of synthetic agents in real world behavior that you have modeled inside the machine. So again, that's the kind, that's exactly the kind of, you know, environment that you're going to train, you know, your your grid of the future on for modeling out all your contingency scenarios.

Trevor Freeman 35:31

Yeah, again, you know, for to bring this to the to our context, a couple of years ago, we had our the direcco. It's a big, massive windstorm that was one of the most damaging storms that we've had in Ottawa's history, and we've made some improvements since then, and we've actually had some great performance since then. Imagine if we could model that derecho hitting our grid from a couple different directions and figure out, well, which lines are more vulnerable to wind speeds, which lines are more vulnerable to flying debris and trees, and then go address that and do something with that, without having to wait for that storm to hit. You know, once in a decade or longer, the other use case that we've talked about on this one is just modeling what's happening underground. So, you know, in an urban environments like Ottawa, like Montreal, where you are, there's tons of infrastructure under the ground, sewer pipes, water pipes, gas lines, electrical lines, and every time the city wants to go and dig up a road and replace that road, replace that sewer, they have to know what's underground. We want to know what's underground there, because our infrastructure is under there. As the electric utility. Imagine if you had a model where you can it's not just a map. You can actually see what's happening underground and determine what makes sense to go where, and model out these different scenarios of if we underground this line or that line there. So lots of interesting things when it comes to a digital twin. The digital twin and Agent combination is really interesting as well, and setting those agents loose on a model that they can play with and understand and learn from. So talk a little bit about.

Greg Lindsay 37:11

that. Yeah. Well, there's a couple interesting implications just the underground, you know, equipment there. One is interesting because in addition to, like, you know, you know, having captured that data through mapping and other stuff there, and having agents that could talk about it. So, you know, next you can imagine, you know, I've done some work with augmented reality XR. This is sort of what we're seeing again, you know, meta Orion has shown off their concept. Google's brought back Android XR. Meta Ray Bans are kind of an example of this. But that's where this data will come from, right? It's gonna be people wearing these wearables in the world, capturing all this camera data and others that's gonna be fed into these digital twins to refresh them. Meta has a particularly scary demo where you know where you the user, the wearer leaves their keys on their coffee table and asks metas, AI, where their coffee where their keys are, and it knows where they are. It tells them and goes back and shows them some data about it. I'm like, well, to do that, meta has to have a complete have a complete real time map of your entire house. What could go wrong. And that's what all these companies aspire to of reality. So, but yeah, you can imagine, you know, you can imagine a worker. And I've worked with a startup out of urban X, a Canada startup, Canadian startup called context steer. And you know, is the idea of having real time instructions and knowledge manuals available to workers, particularly predictive maintenance workers and line workers. So you can imagine a technician dispatched to deal with this cut in the pavement and being able to see with XR and overlay of like, what's actually under there from the digital twin, having an AI basically interface with what's sort of the work order, and basically be your assistant that can help you walk you through it, in case, you know, you run into some sort of complication there, hopefully that won't be, you know, become like, turn, turn by turn, directions for life that gets into, like, some of the questions about what we wanted out of our workforce. But there's some really interesting combinations of those things, of like, you know, yeah, mapping a world for AIS, ais that can understand it, that could ask questions in it, that can go probe it, that can give you advice on what to do in it. All those things are very close for good and for bad.

Trevor Freeman 39:03

You kind of touched on my next question here is, how do we make sure this is all in the for good or mostly in the for good category, and not the for bad category you talk in one of the papers that you wrote about, you know, AI and augmented reality in particular, really expanding the attack surface for malicious actors. So we're creating more opportunities for whatever the case may be, if it's hacking or if it's malware, or if it's just, you know, people that are up to nefarious things. How do we protect against that? How do we make sure that our systems are safe that the users of our system. So in our case, our customers, their data is safe, their the grid is safe. How do we make sure that?

Greg Lindsay 39:49

Well, the very short version is, whatever we're spending on cybersecurity, we're not spending enough. And honestly, like everybody who is no longer learning to code, because we can be a quad or ChatGPT to do it, I. Is probably there should be a whole campaign to repurpose a big chunk of tech workers into cybersecurity, into locking down these systems, into training ethical systems. There's a lot of work to be done there. But yeah, that's been the theme for you know that I've seen for 10 years. So that paper I mentioned about sort of smart homes, the Internet of Things, and why people would want a smart home? Well, yeah, the reason people were skeptical is because they saw it as basically a giant attack vector. My favorite saying about this is, is, there's a famous Arthur C Clarke quote that you know, any sufficiently advanced technology is magic Tobias Ravel, who works at Arup now does their head of foresight has this great line, any sufficiently advanced hacking will feel like a haunting meaning. If you're in a smart home that's been hacked, it will feel like you're living in a haunted house. Lights will flicker on and off, and systems will turn and go haywire. It'll be like you're living with a possessed house. And that's true of cities or any other systems. So we need to do a lot of work on just sort of like locking that down and securing that data, and that is, you know, we identified, then it has to go all the way up and down the supply chain, like you have to make sure that there is, you know, a chain of custody going back to when components are made, because a lot of the attacks on nest, for example. I mean, you want to take over a Google nest, take it off the wall and screw the back out of it, which is a good thing. It's not that many people are prying open our thermostats, but yeah, if you can get your hands on it, you can do a lot of these systems, and you can do it earlier in the supply chain and sorts of infected pieces and things. So there's a lot to be done there. And then, yeah, and then, yeah, and then there's just a question of, you know, making sure that the AIs are ethically trained and reinforced. And, you know, a few people want to listeners, want to scare themselves. You can go out and read some of the stuff leaking out of anthropic and others and make clot of, you know, models that are trying to hide their own alignments and trying to, like, basically copy themselves. Again, I don't believe that anything things are alive or intelligent, but they exhibit these behaviors as part of the probabilistic that's kind of scary. So there's a lot to be done there. But yeah, we worked on this, the group that I do foresight with Arizona State University threat casting lab. We've done some work for the Secret Service and for NATO and, yeah, there'll be, you know, large scale hackings on infrastructure. Basically the equivalent can be the equivalent can be the equivalent to a weapons of mass destruction attack. We saw how Russia targeted in 2014 the Ukrainian grid and hacked their nuclear plans. This is essential infrastructure more important than ever, giving global geopolitics say the least, so that needs to be under consideration. And I don't know, did I scare you enough yet? What are the things we've talked through here that, say the least about, you know, people being, you know, tricked and incepted by their AI girlfriends, boyfriends. You know people who are trying to AI companions. I can't possibly imagine what could go wrong there.

Trevor Freeman 42:29

I mean, it's just like, you know, I don't know if this is 15 or 20, or maybe even 25 years ago now, like, it requires a whole new level of understanding when we went from a completely analog world to a digital world and living online, and people, I would hope, to some degree, learned to be skeptical of things on the internet and learned that this is that next level. We now need to learn the right way of interacting with this stuff. And as you mentioned, building the sort of ethical code and ethical guidelines into these language models into the AI. Learning is pretty critical for our listeners. We do have a podcast episode on cybersecurity. I encourage you to go listen to it and reassure yourself that, yes, we are thinking about this stuff. And thanks, Greg, you've given us lots more to think about in that area as well. When it comes to again, looking back at utilities and managing the grid, one thing we're going to see, and we've talked a lot about this on the show, is a lot more distributed generation. So we're, you know, the days of just the central, large scale generation, long transmission lines that being the only generation on the grid. Those days are ending. We're going to see more distributed generations, solar panels on roofs, batteries. How does AI help a utility manage those better, interact with those better get more value out of those things?

Greg Lindsay 43:51

I guess that's sort of like an extension of some of the trends I was talking about earlier, which is the notion of, like, being able to model complex systems. I mean, that's effectively it, right, like you've got an increasingly complex grid with complex interplays between it, you know, figuring out how to basically based on real world performance, based on what you're able to determine about where there are correlations and codependencies in the grid, where point where choke points could emerge, where overloading could happen, and then, yeah, basically, sort of building that predictive system to Basically, sort of look for what kind of complex emergent behavior comes out of as you keep adding to it and and, you know, not just, you know, based on, you know, real world behavior, but being able to dial that up to 11, so to speak, and sort of imagine sort of these scenarios, or imagine, you know, what, what sort of long term scenarios look like in terms of, like, what the mix, how the mix changes, how the geography changes, all those sorts of things. So, yeah, I don't know how that plays out in the short term there, but it's this combination, like I'm imagining, you know, all these different components playing SimCity for real, if one will.

Trevor Freeman 44:50

And being able to do it millions and millions and millions of times in a row, to learn every possible iteration and every possible thing that might happen. Very cool. Okay. So last kind of area I want to touch on you did mention this at the beginning is the the overall power implications of of AI, of these massive data centers, obviously, at the utility, that's something we are all too keenly aware of. You know, the stat that that I find really interesting is a normal Google Search compared to, let's call it a chat GPT search. That chat GPT search, or decision making, requires 10 times the amount of energy as that just normal, you know, Google Search looking out from a database. Do you see this trend? I don't know if it's a trend. Do you see this continuing like AI is just going to use more power to do its decision making, or will we start to see more efficiencies there? And the data centers will get better at doing what they do with less energy. What is the what does the future look like in that sector?

Greg Lindsay 45:55

All the above. It's more, is more, is more! Is the trend, as far as I can see, and every decision maker who's involved in it. And again, Jensen Wong brought this up at the big Nvidia Conference. That basically he sees the only constraint on this continuing is availability of energy supplies keep it going and South by Southwest. And in some other conversations I've had with bandwidth companies, telcos, like laying 20 lumen technologies, United States is laying 20,000 new miles of fiber optic cables. They've bought 10% of Corning's total fiber optic output for the next couple of years. And their customers are the hyperscalers. They're, they're and they're rewiring the grid. That's why, I think it's interesting. This has something, of course, for thinking about utilities, is, you know, the point to point Internet of packet switching and like laying down these big fiber routes, which is why all the big data centers United States, the majority of them, are in north of them are in Northern Virginia, is because it goes back to the network hub there. Well, lumen is now wiring this like basically this giant fabric, this patchwork, which can connect data center to data center, and AI to AI and cloud to cloud, and creating this entirely new environment of how they are all directly connected to each other through some of this dedicated fiber. And so you can see how this whole pattern is changing. And you know, the same people are telling me that, like, yeah, the where they're going to build this fiber, which they wouldn't tell me exactly where, because it's very tradable, proprietary information, but, um, but it's following the energy supplies. It's following the energy corridors to the American Southwest, where there's solar and wind in Texas, where you can get natural gas, where you can get all these things. It will follow there. And I of course, assume the same is true in Canada as we build out our own sovereign data center capacity for this. So even, like deep seek, for example, you know, which is, of course, the hyper efficient Chinese model that spooked the markets back in January. Like, what do you mean? We don't need a trillion dollars in capex? Well, everyone's quite confident, including again, Jensen Wong and everybody else that, yeah, the more efficient models will increase this usage. That Jevons paradox will play out once again, and we'll see ever more of it. To me, the question is, is like as how it changes? And of course, you know, you know, this is a bubble. Let's, let's, let's be clear, data centers are a bubble, just like railroads in 1840 were a bubble. And there will be a bust, like not everyone's investments will pencil out that infrastructure will remain maybe it'll get cheaper. We find new uses for it, but it will, it will eventually bust at some point and that's what, to me, is interesting about like deep seeking, more efficient models. Is who's going to make the wrong investments in the wrong places at the wrong time? But you know, we will see as it gathers force and agents, as I mentioned. You know, they don't require, as much, you know, these monstrous training runs at City sized data centers. You know, meta wanted to spend $200 billion on a single complex, the open AI, Microsoft, Stargate, $500 billion Oracle's. Larry Ellison said that $100 billion is table stakes, which is just crazy to think about. And, you know, he's permitting three nukes on site. So there you go. I mean, it'll be fascinating to see if we have a new generation of private, private generation, right, like, which is like harkening all the way back to, you know, the early electrical grid and companies creating their own power plants on site, kind of stuff. Nicholas Carr wrote a good book about that one, about how we could see from the early electrical grid how the cloud played out. They played out very similarly. The AI cloud seems to be playing out a bit differently. So, so, yeah, I imagine that as well, but, but, yeah, well, inference happen at the edge. We need to have more distributed generation, because you're gonna have AI agents that are going to be spending more time at the point of request, whether that's a laptop or your phone or a light post or your autonomous vehicle, and it's going to need more of that generation and charging at the edge. That, to me, is the really interesting question. Like, you know, when these current generation models hit their limits, and just like with Moore's law, like, you know, you have to figure out other efficiencies in designing chips or designing AIS, how will that change the relationship to the grid? And I don't think anyone knows quite for sure yet, which is why they're just racing to lock up as many long term contracts as they possibly can just get it all, core to the market.

Trevor Freeman 49:39

Yeah, it's just another example, something that comes up in a lot of different topics that we cover on this show. Everything, obviously, is always related to the energy transition. But the idea that the energy transition is really it's not just changing fuel sources, like we talked about earlier. It's not just going from internal combustion to a battery. It's rethinking the. Relationship with energy, and it's rethinking how we do things. And, yeah, you bring up, like, more private, massive generation to deal with these things. So really, that whole relationship with energy is on scale to change. Greg, this has been a really interesting conversation. I really appreciate it. Lots to pack into this short bit of time here. We always kind of wrap up our conversations with a series of questions to our guests. So I'm going to fire those at you here. And this first one, I'm sure you've got lots of different examples here, so feel free to give more than one. What is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

Greg Lindsay 50:35

The first one that comes to mind is actually William Gibson's Neuromancer, which is which gave the world the notion of cyberspace and so many concepts. But I think about it a lot today. William Gibson, Vancouver based author, about how much in that book is something really think about. There is a digital twin in it, an agent called the Dixie flatline. It's like a former program where they cloned a digital twin of him. I've actually met an engineering company, Thornton Thomas Eddie that built a digital twin of one of their former top experts. So like that became real. Of course, the matrix is becoming real the Turing police. Yeah, there's a whole thing in there where there's cops to make sure that AIS don't get smarter. I've been thinking a lot about, do we need Turing police? The EU will probably create them. And so that's something where you know the proof, again, of like science fiction, its ability in world building to really make you think about these implications and help for contingency planning. A lot of foresight experts I work with think about sci fi, and we use sci fi for exactly that reason. So go read some classic cyberpunk, everybody.

Trevor Freeman 51:32

Awesome. So same question. But what's a movie or a show that you think everybody should take a look at?

Greg Lindsay 51:38

I recently watched the watch the matrix with ideas, which is fun to think about, where the villains are, agents that villains are agents. That's funny how that terms come back around. But the other one was thinking about the New Yorker recently read a piece on global demographics and the fact that, you know, globally, less and less children. And it made several references to Alfonso Quons, Children of Men from 2006 which is, sadly, probably the most prescient film of the 21st Century. Again, a classic to watch, about imagining in a world where we don't where you where you lose faith in the future, what happens, and a world that is not having children as a world that's losing faith in its own future. So that's always haunted me.

Trevor Freeman 52:12

It's funny both of those movies. So I've got kids as they get, you know, a little bit older, a little bit older, we start introducing more and more movies. And I've got this list of movies that are just, you know, impactful for my own adolescent years and growing up. And both matrix and Children of Men are on that list of really good movies that I just need my kids to get a little bit older, and then I'm excited to watch with them. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Greg Lindsay 52:40

I would go to Venice, Italy for the Architecture Biennale, which I will be on a plane in May, going to anyway. And the theme this year is intelligence, artificial, natural and collective. So it should be interesting to see the world's brightest architects. Let's see what we got. But yeah, Venice, every time, my favorite city in the world.

Trevor Freeman 52:58

Yeah, it's pretty wonderful. Who is someone that you admire?

Greg Lindsay 53:01

Great question. I was thinking. I was thinking about Emory Levin's earlier with this one too. I think about him, because Emery Levin's in, like, energy discourse. Just to be thematic about this is, I think, all the time about his essay from, I think 1976 in foreign affairs, the hard and soft path, I think he called them, which is the idea that, yeah, that in the 70s, before I was born imagining that we could take the soft path of renewables and infinite energy abundance, or we take the hard path of fossil fuels, and we are still taking the hard path globally. It feels like back in the United States, have definitely taken the hard path. So I think about a lot because he was the first one to really think about energy, particularly in the 70s, such a dark decade for energy, from a framing of abundance, and that we got this and, you know, that we simply had to make choices policy and otherwise. And you know, I guess I'm hopeful that we can still make those choices, but, but, yeah, he was such an early and bright voice in this entire discourse.

Trevor Freeman 53:52

And finally, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?

Greg Lindsay 53:58

Uh, when it comes to energy, I guess I'm really excited. I hadn't thought about it this way, but I guess I'm kind of excited the idea that nuclear is back on the table. I grew up in Illinois, and, like Illinois, I think, is one of the highest state penetrations of nuclear plants. Like nuclear cooling towers were something that I saw growing up. Obviously, you know, nuclear scares people. When you have, you know, industrial accidents that could last a million years. It's kind of scary, but, but, yeah, it's interesting to see that, like all those advances on in theory, thorium reactors and modular reactors are finding purchase with all these tech company hyperscalers that are willing to throw money at the problem. So, so yeah, so I think you know, anything that keeps more coal and natural gas from coming online and fits clean energy clean electrons, let's do it.

Trevor Freeman 54:39

Yeah, I totally agree, Greg. Thanks very much for your time. Appreciate it. This has been a great conversation.

Greg Lindsay 54:44

Thanks for having a lot of fun!

Trevor Freeman 54:46

Awesome. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from. You, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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Summer rewind: Scott Demark, President and CEO of Zibi Community Utility, joins thinkenergy to discuss how our relationship with energy is changing. With two decades of expertise in clean energy and sustainable development, Scott suggests reimagining traditional energy applications for heating and cooling. He shares how strategic energy distribution can transform urban environments, specifically how district energy systems optimize energy flow between buildings for a greener future. Listen in.

Related links

● Scott Demark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-demark-83640473/

● Zibi Community Utility: https://zibi.ca/

● Markham District Energy Inc: https://www.markhamdistrictenergy.com/

● One Planet Living: https://www.bioregional.com/one-planet-living

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.

Trevor Freeman 00:55

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back one of the overarching aspects of the energy transition that we have talked about several times on this show is the need to change our relationship with energy, to rethink the standard way of doing things when it comes to heating and cooling and transportation, et cetera. This change is being driven by our need to decarbonize and by the ongoing evolution and improvement of technology, more things are becoming available to us as technology improves. On the decarbonization front, we know that electrification, which is switching from fossil fuel combustions to electricity for things like space and water heating, vehicles, et cetera, is one of the most effective strategies. But in order to switch out all the end uses to an electric option, so swapping out furnaces and boilers for heat pumps or electric boilers, switching all gas cars to EVs, et cetera, in order to do that in a way that is affordable and efficient and can be supported by our electricity grid. We need to think about multi strategy approaches, so we can't just continue to have this one way power grid where every home, every business, every warehouse or office tower satisfies all of its energy needs all the time directly from the grid with no adaptability. That isn't the best approach. It's not going to be affordable or efficient. We're not going to be able to do it fast enough. The multi strategy approach takes into account things like distributed energy resources, so solar and storage, et cetera, which we've talked about many times on this show, but it also includes approaches like district energy. So district energy is rethinking how energy flows between adjacent buildings, looking for opportunities to capture excess energy or heat from one source and use that to support another, and that is the focus of today's conversation to help us dive into this topic, I'm really happy to welcome Scott demark to the show. Scott has been a champion of sustainability, clean energy solutions and energy efficiency in the Ottawa real estate and development industry for over 20 years now, he has overseen many high performance development projects, and was one of the driving forces behind the Zibi development in downtown Ottawa, and most applicable for today's conversation the renewable district energy system that provides heating and cooling to the Zibi site. Scott is the president and CEO of the Zibi community utility, as well as a partner at Theia partners. Scott the Mark, welcome to the show. Thanks. Nice to see you. Trevor, so Scott, why don't we start with definitions are always a good place to start. So when we talk about a district energy system, give us a high level overview of what exactly that means.

Scott Demark 04:15

Sure a district energy system is, is simply the connection or interconnection of thermal energy sources, thermal energy sinks. And so really, in practical terms, it means, instead of buildings having their own furnace and cooling system, buildings connect to a hydronic loop. A hydronic loop is just pipes filled with water, and then the heat or the cooling is made somewhere else, and that heat or lack of heat cooling is in a pipe. They push the pipe to the building, and then the pipe extracts the heat, or rejects the heat to that loop. And so it's simply an interconnection of. Uh, as it forces in sinks for federal energy.

Trevor Freeman 05:03

And I guess one of the important concepts here is that buildings often create heat, not just through a furnace or not just through the things that are meant to create heat, but, you know, server racks, computer server racks, generate a lot of heat, and that heat has to go somewhere. So oftentimes we're cooling buildings to remove heat that's being created in those buildings, and then other buildings nearby need to be heated in order to make that space comfortable.

Scott Demark 05:31

Is that fair to say? Yeah, absolutely. Trevor, so, a an office building in the city of Ottawa, big old government office building, you'll see a pretty big plume on the roof in the wintertime. That's not just kind of the flue gas from a boiler, but rather it is actually chillers are running inside to make cooling, and they're just selling that heat to the atmosphere, even on the coldest day of the year. So it's people, you know, people are thermal load. Computers are thermal load, and so is solar gain. You know, January is pretty dark period for us, meaning low angle sun, but by this time in a year, you know, at the end of February, there's a lot of heat in that sun. So a glass building absorbs a lot of sun an office building will lead cooling on the sunny side of that building a lot of the time, even in the dead of

Trevor Freeman 06:18

winter, yeah. So a district system, then, is taking advantage of the fact that heat exists, and we don't necessarily need to either burn fossil fuels, or, even if it's a, you know, a clean system, we don't have to expend energy to create heat, or create as much heat if we could move that heat around from where it's kind of naturally occurring to where we need

Scott Demark 06:41

it. That's right at the very core of a district energy system. You're going to move heat from a place that it's not wanted to a place that it is wanted. And so in our example of the office building, you know, on the February day with the sun shining in and the computers all running, that building's getting rid of heat. But right next door, say, there's a 20 story condo. Well, that 20 story condo needs heating and it also needs domestic hot water. So year round, domestic hot water represents 30, 35% of the heating load of any residential building, so at all times. So a district energy system allows you to take that heat away from the office building and give it to the residential building, instead of making the heat and and dissipating that heat to the atmosphere in the office building. So, yeah, it's, it's really a way to move, you know, from sources to sinks. That's, that's what a district energy system does well.

Trevor Freeman 07:37

So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition this, this push to one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs, and two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, et cetera, to more of a two way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition? How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?

Scott Demark 08:15

I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in that industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are, are just starting right? Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth, and so they don't have the same cost structure, and oftentimes they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where, you know, you might want to go and and recover heat from some process. And we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if you want to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it, but if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly, district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So once you. Establish that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings. What the source and what the source is doesn't matter. So you may have, at one point, built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy System is a great example of this. Markham district energy system was built on the concept of using a co generation facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity. They sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well here we are, 20 plus years later, and they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system Augment, not fully replaced, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't to rip up the pipes. They don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.

Trevor Freeman 11:08

So you mentioned, I want to pick on something you said there. You talked about a sewer heat energy system. They're pulling heat from the sewer. Just help our listeners understand high level kind of, why is there heat there for us to pull like, what's the what's the source there?

Scott Demark 11:26

Yeah, so when we shower, when we flush toilets, all, all of that is introducing heat into a sewer system. So we're collecting heat from everybody's house into the sewer system. The sewer system also sits below the frost line. So call it Earth coupled. You know, it's the earth in Ottawa below the frost line sits around eight, eight and a half c and so at that temperature and the temperature of flushing toilets we we essentially get a sewer temperature in the on the coldest day of the year, but it's around 1010, and a half degrees Celsius. And obviously, for lots of the year, it's much warmer than that. And so I think, you know, a lot of people are kind of familiar with the concept of geo exchange energy, or that. Lot of people call it geothermal. But geo exchange where you might drill down into the earth, and you're taking advantage of that 888, and a half degrees Celsius. So you're exchanging heat. You can reject heat to the earth, or you can absorb heat from the earth. Well, this is the same idea, but you accept or reject from this sewer. But because the sewer is relatively shallow, it is cheaper to access that energy, and because it's warm, and on the coldest day, a couple of degrees make a big difference. Trevor and most of the years so much warmer, you're really in a very good position to extract that heat, and that's all it is. You. You are just accepting or rejecting heat. You don't use the sewage itself. It doesn't come into your building. You have a heat exchanger in between. But that's what you do.

Trevor Freeman 12:58

I agree. And we've talked before on the show about the idea that you know, for an air source, heat pump, for example, you don't need a lot of heat energy to extract energy from the air. It can be cold outside, and there is still heat energy in the air that you can pull and use that to heat a building, heat water, whatever. So same concept, except you've got a much warmer source of energy, I guess. Yeah, exactly. And you know, Trevor, when you look at the efficiency curves of those air source heat pumps, you know, they kind of drop off a cliff at minus 20. Minus 22 In fact, you know, five or six years ago, they that that was dropping off at minus 10. So we've come a long way in air source heat pumps. But imagine on that coldest, coldest day of the year, you're still your source is well above zero, and therefore your efficiency. So the amount of electricity you need to put into the heat pump to get out the heat that you need is much lower, so it's a way more efficient heat exchange. Great. Thanks for that, Scott. I know that's a bit of a tangent here, but always cool to talk about different ways that we're coming up with to heat our buildings. So back to district energy, we've talked through some of the benefits of the system. If I'm a building owner and I'm have the decision to connect to a system that's there, or have my own standalone, you know, traditional boiler, whatever the case may be, or even in a clean energy want to heat pump, whatever. What are the benefits of being on a district system versus having my own standalone system for just my building?

Scott Demark 14:30

Yeah, so when you're wearing the developers hat, you know they're really looking at it financially, if they have other goals around sustainability. Great that will factor into it, but most of them are making decisions around this financially. So it needs to compete with that. That first cost that we talked about the easiest ways, is boilers, gas fired boilers is the cheapest way. And so they're going to look to see it at how. Does this compare to that? And so I think that's the best way to frame it for you. And so the difference here is that you need to install in your building a cooling system and a heating system. In Ottawa, that cooling system is only used for a few months a year, and it's very expensive. It takes up space, whether you're using a chiller and a cooling tower on the roof, or using a dry cooler, it takes up roof space, and it also takes up interior space. If you do have a cooling tower, you have a lot of maintenance for that. You need to turn it on and turn it off in the spring, on and fall, etc, just to make sure all that happens. And you need to carry the life cycle of that boiler plant you need to bring gas infrastructure into your building. You generally need to put that gas boiler plant high in your building, so, so up near the top, and that's for purposes of venting that properly. Now, that's taking real estate, right? And it's taking real estate on the area that's kind of most advantageous, worth the most money. So you might lose a penthouse to have a boiler and chiller room up there. And you also, of course, lose roof space. And today, we really do try to take advantage of those rooftop patios and things. Amenities are pretty important in buildings. And so when I compare that to district energy at the p1 level p2 level in your building, you're going to have a small room, and I really do mean small where the energy transfer takes place, you'll have some heat exchangers. And small you might have a space, you know, 10 or 12 feet by 15 to 18 feet would be big enough for a 30 story tower. So a small room where you do the heat exchange and then Trevor, you don't have anything in your building for plant that you would normally look after. So when you look at the pro forma for owning your building over the lifetime of it, you don't have to maintain boilers. You don't have to have boiler insurance. You don't have to maintain your chillers. You don't have to have lifecycle replacement on any of these products. You don't need anybody operating, those checking in on the pressure vessels. None of that has to happen. All of that happens on the district energy system. So you're really taking something you own and operate and replacing that with a service. So district energy is a service, and what, what we promised to deliver is the heating you need and the cooling you need. 24/7 you second thing you get is more resilience. And I'll explain that a little bit. Is that in a in a normal building, if you if the engineers looked at it and said you need two boilers to keep your building warm, then you're probably going to install three. And that is kind of this n plus one sort of idea, so that if one boilers goes down, you have a spare and you need to maintain those. You need to pay for that. You need to maintain those, etc. But in district energy system, all that redundancy is done in the background. It's done by us, and we have significantly more redundancy than just n plus one in this example. But overall, you know, if you have 10 buildings on your district energy system, each of those would have had n plus one. We don't have n plus 10 in the plant. And so overall, the cost is lower, I would say, if you look at it globally, except the advantages you do have better than N plus one in the plan, so we have higher resiliency at a lower cost.

Trevor Freeman 18:26

So we know there's no such thing as a miracle solution that works in all cases. What are the the best use cases for district energy system? Where does it make a lot of sense.

Scott Demark 18:37

Yeah, in terms some, in some ways the easiest thing, spray work doesn't make sense. So, so it doesn't make sense in sprawling low rise development. So the cost of that hydronic loop, those water pipes, is high. They have to fit in the roadway. It's civil work, etc. And so you do need density. That doesn't mean it has to be high rise density. You know, if you look at Paris, France, six stories, district energy, no problem. There's there's lots and lots of customers for that scale of building. It doesn't have to be all high rise, but it does. District energy does not lend itself well to our sprawling style of development. It's much more suited to a downtown setting. It also kind of thrives where there's mixed use, you know, I think the first example we're talking about is office building shedding heat, residential building needing heat, you know, couple that with an industrial building shedding heat. You know, the these various uses, a variety of uses on a district energy system is the best because its biggest advantage is sharing energy, not making energy. And so a disparity of uses is the best place to use that, I think the other, the other thing to think about, and this is harder in Canada than the rest of the world. Is that, you know, it's harder on a retrofit basis, from a cost perspective, than it is in a in a new community where you can put this in as infrastructure, day one, you're going to make a big difference. And I'll, you know, give a shout out to British Columbia and the Greater Vancouver area. So the district, you know, down in the Lower Mainland, they, they kind of made this observation and understood that if they were going to electrify then District Energy gave economies of scale to electrify that load. And they do a variety of things, but one of the things they do is, is kind of district geo exchange systems, so, so big heat pumps coupled to big fields, and then bring heat a bunch of buildings. But these are Greenfield developments Trevor. So as they expand their suburbs, they do need to build the six stories. They very much have kind of density around parks concepts. So now Park becomes a geo field, density around the geo field, but this infrastructure is going in the same time as the water pipes. It's going in at the same time as the roads, the sidewalks, etc, you can dramatically reduce your cost, your first cost related to that hydro loop, if you're putting it in the same time you're doing the rest of the services.

Trevor Freeman 21:15

So we're not likely to see, you know, residential neighborhoods with single family homes or multi unit homes, whatever, take advantage of this. But that sort of low rise, mid rise, that's going to be more of a good pick for this. And like you said, kind of development is the time to do this. You mentioned other parts of the world. So district energy systems aren't exactly widespread. In Canada, we're starting to see more of them pop up. What about the rest of the world? Are there places in the world where we see a lot more of this, and they've been doing this for a long time?

Scott Demark 21:47

Yeah. So I'd almost say every everywhere in the northern hemisphere, except North America, has done much more of this. And you know, we really look to kind of Scandinavia as the gold standard of this. You look to Sweden, you look to Denmark, you look to Germany. Even there's, there's a lot of great examples of this, and they are typically government owned. So they are often public private partnerships, but they would be various levels of government. So you know, if you, if you went to Copenhagen, you'd see that the municipality is an owner. But then their equivalent of a province or territory is, is actually a big part of it, too. And when they built their infrastructure ages ago, they did not have an easy source of fossil fuels, right? And so they need to think about, how can we do this? How can we share heat? How can we centralize the recovery of heat? How can we make sure we don't waste any and this has just been ingrained in them. So there's massive, massive District Energy loops, interconnecting loops, some owned by municipalities, some of them probably, if you build a factory, part of the concept of your factory, part of the pro forma of your factory is, how much can I sell my waste heat for? And so a factory district might have a sear of industrial partners who own a district energy loop and interfaces with the municipal loop, all sort of sharing energy and dumping it in. And so that's, you know, that's what you would study. That's, that's where we would want to be. And the heart of it is just that, as I said, we've really had, you know, cheap or, you know, really cheap fossil fuels. We've had no price on pollution. And therefore what really hasn't needed to happen here, and we're starting to see the need for that to happen here.

Trevor Freeman 23:46

It's an interesting concept to think of, you know, bringing that factory example in, instead of waste heat or heat as a byproduct of your process being a problem that you need to deal with, something, you have to figure out a way to get rid of it becomes almost an asset. It's a it's a, you know, convenient commodity that's being produced regardless, that you can now look to sell and monetize.

Scott Demark 24:10

Yeha, you go back to the idea of, like, what are the big benefits of district energy? Is that, like, if that loop exists and somebody knows that one of the things the factory produces is heat, well, that's a commodity I produce, and I can, I can sell it if I have a way to sell it right here, you know, we're going to dissipate it to a river. We may dissipate it to the atmosphere. We're going to get rid of it. Like you said, it's, it's, it's waste in their minds, and in Europe, that is absolutely not waste.

Trevor Freeman 24:36

And it coming back to that, you know, question of, where does this make sense? You talked about mixed use, and it's also like the, you know, the temporal mixed use of someone that is producing a lot of heat during the day, when the next door residential building is empty, then when they switch, when the factory closes and the shift is over and everybody comes home from work. So that's when that building needs heat, that's when they want to be then taking that heat two buildings next to each other that both need heat at the same time is not as good a use cases when it's offset like that.

Scott Demark 25:10

Yeah, that's true. And lots of District Energy Systems consider kind of surges and storage. I know our system at CB has, has kind of a small storage system related to the domestic hot water peak load. However, you can also think of the kilometers and kilometers and kilometers of pipes full of water as a thermal battery, right? So, so you actually are able to even out those surges you you let the temperature the district energy system rise when that factory is giving all out all kinds of heat, it's rising even above the temperature you have to deliver it at. And then when that heat comes, you can draw down that temperature and let the whole district energy system normalize to its temperature again. So you do have an innate battery in the in the water volume that sits in the district energy system, very cool.

Trevor Freeman 26:04

So you've mentioned Zibi a couple of times, and I do want to get into that as much as we're talking about other parts of the world. You know having longer term district energy systems. Zibi, community utility is a great example, right here in Ottawa, where you and I are both based of a district energy system. Before we get into that, can you, just for our listeners that are not familiar with Zibi, give us a high level overview of of what that community is, its location, you know, the goals of the community, and then we'll talk about the energy side of things.

Scott Demark 26:34

Sure. So Zibi was formerly Domtar paper mills. It's 34 acres, and it is in downtown Ottawa and downtown Gatineau. About a third of the land masses is islands on the Ontario side, and two thirds of the land mass is on the shore, the north shore of the Ottawa River in Gatineau, both downtown, literally in the shadows of Parliament. It is right downtown. It was industrial for almost 200 years. Those paper mills shut down in the 90s and the early 2000s and my partners and I pursued that to turn it from kind of this industrial wasteland, walled off, fenced off, area that no one could go into. What we're hoping will be kind of the world's most sustainable urban community, and so at build out, it will house, you know, about six, 7000 people. It will be four and a half million square feet, 4.24 point 4, million square feet of development. It is master planned and approved and has built about, I think we're, at 1.1 million square feet. So we're about quarter built out now. 10 buildings are done and connected to the district energy system there. And really, it's, it's an attempt to sort of recover land that was really quite destroyed. You can imagine it was a pretty polluted site. So the giant remediation plan, big infrastructure plan, we modeled this, this overall sustainability concept, over a program called one planet living which has 10 principles of sustainability. So you know, you and I are talking a lot about carbon today, but there's also very important aspects about affordability and social sustainability and lifestyle, and all of those are incorporated into the one planet program, and encourage people to look up one planet living and understand what it is, and look at the commitments that we've made at CV to create a sustainable place. We issue a report every year, kind of our own report card that's reviewed by a third party, that explains where we are on our on our mission to achieve our goal of the world's most sustainable

Trevor Freeman 28:57

community. Yeah. And so I do encourage people to look at one planet living. Also have a look at, you know, the Zibi website, and it's got the Master Plan and the vision of what that community will be. And I've been down there, it's already kind of coming along. It's amazing to see the progress compared to who I think you described it well, like a bit of an industrial wasteland at the heart of one of the most beautiful spots in the city. It was really a shame what it used to be. And it's great to see kind of the vision of what it can become. So that's awesome.

Scott Demark 29:26

Yeah, and Trevor, especially now that the parks are coming along. You know, we worked really closely with the NCC to integrate the shoreline of ZV to the existing, you know, bike path networks and everything. And, you know, two of the three shoreline parks are now completed and open to the public and and they're stunning. And, you know, so many Ottawa people have not been down there because it's not a place you think about, but it's one of the few places in Ottawa and Gatineau where you can touch the water, you know, like it's, it's, it's stunning. Yeah, very, very cool.

Trevor Freeman 29:57

Okay, so the. The the next part of that, of course, is energy. And so there is a district energy system, one of the first kind of, or the most recent big energy. District Energy Systems in Ottawa. Tell us a little bit about how you are moving energy and heating the Zibi site.

Scott Demark 30:17

Yeah. So, first I'll say, you know, we, we, we studied different ways to get to net zero. You know, we had, we had a goal of being a zero carbon community. There are low carbon examples, but a zero carbon community is quite a stretch. And even when you look at the Scandinavian examples, the best examples, they're missing their they're missing their energy goals, largely because some of the inputs that are District Energy System remain fossil, but also because they have trouble getting the performance out of the buildings. And so we looked at this. We also know from our experience that getting to zero carbon at the building scale in Ottawa is very, very difficult. Our climate's tough, super humid, super hot summer, very cold, very dry, winter, long winter. So it's difficult at the building scale. It's funny Trevor, because you'd actually have an easier time getting to zero carbon or a passive house standard in affordable housing than you do at market housing, and that's because affordable housing has a long list of people who want to move in and pay rents. You can get some subsidies for capital, and the people who are willing to pay rent are good with smaller windows, thicker walls, smaller units, and pass trust needs, all those kinds of things. So when down at Zibi, you're really selling views. You're competing with people on the outside of Zibi, you're building almost all glass buildings. And so it's really difficult to find a way to get to zero carbon on the building scale. So that moved us to district energy for all the reasons we've talked about today already. And so when we looked at it for Zibi, you really look at the ingredients you have. One of the great things we have is we're split over the border. It's also a curse. But split over the border is really interesting, because you cannot move electricity over that border, but you can move thermal energy over that border. And so for us, in thinking about electrifying thermal energy, we realized that if we did the work in Quebec, where there is clean and affordable electricity, we could we could turn that into heat, and then we could move heat to Ontario. We could move chilled water to Ontario. So that's kind of ingredient, one that we had going for us there. The second is that there used to be three mills. So originally, don't target three mills. They sold one mill. It changed hands a few times, but It now belongs to Kruger. They make tissue there so absorbent things, Kleenexes and toilet paper, absorbent, anything in that tissue process. That's a going concern. So you can see that on our skyline. You can see, on cold days, big plumes of waste heat coming out of it. And so we really saw that as our source, really identified that as our source. And how could we do that? So going back to the economies of scale, is could we send a pipeline from Kruger, about a kilometer away, to Zibi? And so when we were purchasing the land, we were looking at all the interconnections of how the plants used to be realized. There's some old pipelines, some old easements, servitudes, etc. And so when we bought the land, we actually bought all of those servitudes too, including a pipeline across the bridge. Canadian energy regulator licensed across the bridge into Ontario. And so we mixed all these ingredients up, you know, in a pot and came up with our overall scheme. And so that overall scheme is is relatively simple. We built an energy recovery station at Kruger where, just before their effluent water, like when they're finished in their process, goes back to the river. We have a heat exchanger there. We extract heat. We push that heat in a pipe network over to Zibi. At Zibi, we can upgrade that heat using heat recovery chillers to a useful temperature for us, that's about 40 degrees Celsius, and we push that across the bridge to Ontario, all of our buildings in Ontario then have fan coil units. They use that 40 degree heat to heat buildings. The return side of that comes back to Quebec. And then on the Quebec side, we have a loop. And all of our buildings in the Quebec side then use heat pumps so we extract the last bit of heat. So imagine you you've returned from a fan coil, but you're still slightly warm. That slightly warm water is enough to drive a heat pump inside the buildings. And then finally, that goes back to Kruger again, and Kruger heats it back up with their waste heat and comes back. So that's our that's our heating loop. The cooling side is coupled to the Ottawa River. And so instead of us, we. Rejecting heat to the atmosphere through cooling towers. Our coolers are actually coupled to the river. That's a very tight environmental window that you can operate in. So we worked with the Ministry of the Environment climate change in Quebec to get our permit to do it. We can only be six degrees difference to the river, but our efficiency is on average, like on an annual basis, more than double what it would be to a cooling tower for the same load. So we're river coupled, with respect to cooling for the whole development, and we're coupled to Kruger for heating for the whole development. And what that allows us to do is eliminate fossil fuels. Our input is clean Quebec electricity, and our output is heating and cooling.

Trevor Freeman 35:44

So none of the buildings, you know, just for our listeners, none of the buildings have any sort of fossil fuel combustion heating equipment. You don't have boilers or anything like that. Furnaces in these in these buildings?

Scott Demark 35:54

No boilers, no chillers, no. that's awesome. And

Trevor Freeman 35:58

That's awesome. And just for full transparency, I should have mentioned this up front. So the Zibi community utility is a partnership between Zibi and Hydro Ottawa, who our listeners will know that I work for, and this was really kind of a joint venture to figure out a different approach to energy at the Zibi site.

Scott Demark 36:16

Yeah, that's right. Trevor, I mean the concept, the concept was born a long time ago now, but the concept was born by talking to hydro Ottawa about how we might approach this whole campus differently. You know, one of hydro Ottawa companies makes electricity, of course, Chaudière Falls, and so that was part of the thinking we thought of, you know, micro grids and islanding this and doing a lot of different things. When Ford came in, and we were not all the way there yet, and made changes to Green Energy Act, it made it challenging for us to do the electricity side, but we had already well advanced the thermal side, and hydro, you know, hydro makes a good partner in this sort of thing, when a when a developer tells someone, I'd like you to buy a condo, and by the way, I'm also the district energy provider that might put some alarm bells up, but you put a partnership in there with a trusted, long term utility partner and explain that, you know, it is in the in the public interest. They're not going to jack rates or mess with things, and then obviously just hydro has had such a long operating record operating experience that they really brought sort of an operations and long term utility mindset to our district energy system.

Trevor Freeman 37:35

So looking at a system like the Zippy community utility or other district energy systems. Is this the kind of thing that can scale up over time? And, you know, I bring this up because you hear people talk about, you know, a network of district energy systems across a city or across a big geographic area. Are these things that can be interconnected and linked, or does it make more sense as standalone district energy systems in those conditions that you talked about earlier.

Scott Demark 38:06

Very much the former Trevor like and that's, you know, that's where, you know, places like Copenhagen are today. It's that, you know, there was, there was one district energy system, then there was another, then they got interconnected, then the third got added. And then they use a lot of incineration there in that, in that part of the world, clean incineration for garbage. And so then an incinerator is coming online. And so that incinerators waste heat is going to be fed with a new district energy loop, and some other factory is going to use the primary heat from that, and then the secondary heat is going to come into the dictionary system. Disciplinary system. So these things are absolutely expandable. They're absolutely interconnectable. There are temperature profiles. There's modern, modern thoughts on temperature profiles compared to older systems. Most of the old, old systems were steam, actually, which is not the most efficient thing the world. But that's where they started and so now you can certainly interconnect them. And I think that the example at Zibi is a decent one, because we do have two kinds of systems there. You know, I said we have fan coil units in in the Ontario side, but we have heat pumps on the other side. Well, those two things, they can coexist, right? That's there. Those two systems are operating together. Because the difference, you know, the difference from the customer's perspective in those two markets are different, and the same can be true in different parts of the city or when different sources and sinks are available. So it is not one method of doing district energy systems. What you do is you examine the ingredients you have. I keep saying it, but sources and sinks? How can I look at these sources and sinks in a way that I can interconnect them and make sense? And sometimes that means that a source or a sink might be another district energy system.

Trevor Freeman 39:59

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, systems that maybe work in parallel to each other, in cooperation with each other. Again, it's almost that temporal need where there's load high on at one point in time and low on the other point in time. Sharing is a great opportunity.

Scott Demark 40:14

Yeah, absolutely great.

Trevor Freeman 40:17

Okay, last question for you here, Scott, what is needed, maybe from a regulatory or a policy lens to encourage more implementation of district energy systems. How do we see more of these things happen here in Canada or in

Scott Demark 40:32

North America? The best way to put this, the bureaucracy has been slow to move, is, is what I'll say, and I'll use Zibi as that example. When we, when we pitched the district energy system at Zibi, we had to approach the City of Ottawa, and we had to approach the city of Gatineau, the City of Ottawa basically said to us, No, you can't put those in our streets. Engineering just said, no, no, no, no. And so what we did at Zibi is we actually privatized our streets in order to see our vision through, because, because Ottawa wasn't on board, the city of Gatineau said, Hmm, I'm a little worried. I want you to write protocols of how you will access your pipes, not our pipes. I want to understand where liability ends and starts and all of this kind of stuff. And we worked through that detail slowly, methodically, with the city of Gatineau, and we came to a new policy on how district energy could be in a public street and Zibi streets are public on the Gatineau side today. You know, come forward 10 years here, and the City of Ottawa has a working group on how to incorporate District Energy pipes into streets. We've been able to get the City of Ottawa to come around to the idea that we will reject and accept heat from their sewer. You know, hydro Ottawa, wholly owned company of the City of Ottawa, has an active business in district energy. So Trevor, we've come really far, but it's taken a long time. And so if you ask me, How can we, how can accelerate district energy, I think a lot of it has to do with the bureaucracy at municipalities. And you know, we're we see so much interest from the Federation of Canadian municipalities, who was the debt funder for ZCU. We have multiple visits from people all over Canada, coming to study and look at this as an example. And I'm encouraged by that. But it's also, it's also not rocket science. We need to understand that putting a pipe in a street is kind of a just, just a little engineering problem to solve, whereas putting, you know, burning fossil fuels for these new communities and putting in the atmosphere like the genies out of the bottle, right? Like and unfortunately, I think for a lot of bureaucrats, the challenge at the engineering level is that that pipe in the street is of immediate, complex danger to solving that problem, whereas it's everybody's problem that the carbons in the atmosphere. So if we could accelerate that, if we could focus on the acceleration of standards around District Energy pipes and streets, the rights of a district energy company to exist, and not to rant too much, but give you an example, is that a developer is required to put gas infrastructure into a new community, required, and yet you have to fight to get a district energy pipe in the street. So there needs to be a change of mindset there, and, and we're not there yet, but that's where we need to go.

Trevor Freeman 43:54

Yeah. Well, the interesting, you know, in 10 years, let's talk again and see how far we come. Hopefully not 10 years. Hopefully it's more like five, to see the kind of change that you've seen in the last decade. But I think that the direction is encouraging. The speed needs a little bit of work. But I'm always encouraged to see, yeah, things are changing or going in the right direction, just slowly. Well, Scott, we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, so as long as you're okay with it, I'll jump right into those. So the first question is, what is a book you've read that you think everybody should read?

Scott Demark 44:29

Nexus, which is by Harari. He's the same author that wrote sapiens. Lots of people be familiar with sapiens. And so Nexus is, is really kind of the history of information networks, like, how do we, how do we share and pass information? And kind of a central thesis is that, you know, information is, is neither knowledge nor truth. It is information, and it's talking a lot about in the age of AI. Uh, how are we going to manage to move information into truth or knowledge? And I think it, you know, to be honest, it kind of scared the shit out of me reading it kind of how, how AI is impacting our world and going to impact our world. And what I thought was kind of amazing about it was that he, he really has a pretty strong thesis around the erosion of democracy in this time. And it's, it was, it was really kind of scary because it was published before the 2024 election. And so it's, it's really kind of a, both a fascinating and scary read, and I think really something that everybody should get their head around.

Trevor Freeman 45:47

It's, yeah, there's a few of those books recently that I would clear or classify them as kind of dark and scary, but really important or really enlightening in some way. And it kind of helps you, you know, formalize a thought or a concept in your head and realize, hey, here's what's happening, or gives you that kind of the words to speak about it in this kind of fraught time we're in. So same question, but for a movie or a show, is there anything that you think everybody should watch.

Scott Demark 46:16

That's harder, I think, generally from watching something, it's for my downtime or own entertainment, and pushing my tastes on the rest of the world, maybe not a great idea. I if I, if I'm, if I'm kind of doing that, I tend to watch cooking shows, actually, Trevor so like, that's awesome. I like ugly, delicious. I love Dave Chang. I like, I like mind of a chef creativity partnership. So those kind of things I'd say more so if there was something to like that, I think somebody else should, should watch or listen to, I have, I have a real love for Malcolm Gladwell podcast, revisionist history. And so if I thought, you know, my watching habits are not going to going to expand anybody's brain, but I do think that Malcolm's perspective on life is really a healthy it's really healthy to step sideways and look at things differently. And I would suggest, if you have never listened to that podcast. Go to Episode One, season one, and start there. It's, it's, it's fantastic.

Trevor Freeman 47:26

Yeah, I agree. I'll echo that one. That's one of my favorites. If we were to offer you or not, but if we were to offer you a free round trip flight, anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Scott Demark 47:38

That's hard, so much flight guilt. You know.

Trevor Freeman 47:42

I know it's a hard assume that there's carbon offset to it.

Scott Demark 47:47

It's an electric plane.

Trevor Freeman 47:48

That's right, yeah.s

Scott Demark 47:49

My family, had a trip planned in 2020 to go to France and Italy. My two boys were kind of at the perfect age to do that. It would have been a really ideal trip. And so I've still never been to either those places. And if I had to pick one, probably Italy, I would really like to see Italy. I think it would be a fantastic place to go. So probably, probably Italy.

Trevor Freeman 48:12

My favorite trip that I've ever done with my wife and our six month old at the time was Italy. It was just phenomenal. It was a fantastic trip. Who's someone that you admire?

Scott Demark 48:25

I have a lot of people. Actually have a lot of people in this in this particular space, like, what would I work in that have brought me here to pick to pick one, though I'd probably say Peter Busby. So. Peter Busby is a mentor, a friend, now a business partner, but, but not earlier in my career. Peter Busby is a kind of a one of the four fathers, you know, if you will, of green design in Canada. He's an architect, Governor General's Award winning architect, actually. But I think what I what I really, really appreciate about Peter, and always will, is that he was willing to stand up in his peer group and say, Hey, we're not doing this right. And, you know, he did that. He did that in the early 80s, right? Like we're not talking he did it when it cost his business some clients. He did it when professors would speak out against him, and certainly the Canadian Association of architecture was not going to take any blame for the shitty buildings that have been built, right? And he did it, and I remember being at a conference where Peter was getting a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Canadian architects Association. And so he's standing up, and people are all super proud of him. They're talking about his big life. And he. He, he, he kind of belittled them all and said, You're not doing enough. We're not doing enough like he's still he's still there. He's still taking the blame for where things are, and that things haven't moved fast enough, and that buildings are a massive part of our carbon problem, and probably one of the easier areas to fix. You know, we're talking about electric planes. Well, that's a that's a lot more difficult than it is to recover energy from a factory to heat a community, right? I admire him. I learned things from him all the time. He's got a great book out at the moment, actually, and, yeah, he'd be right up there on my in my top list, awesome.

Trevor Freeman 50:44

What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?

Scott Demark 50:48

You wished you asked me this before the election. I'm feeling a little dark. Trevor, I think there needs to be a price on pollution in the world needs to be a price on pollution in America, in Canada, and I'm worried about that going away. In light of that, I'm not I'm not super excited about different technologies at the moment. I think there are technologies that are helping us, there are technologies that are pushing us forward, but there's no like silver bullet. So, you know, a really interesting thing that's coming is kind of this idea that a small nuclear reactor, okay, very interesting idea. You could see its context in both localized electricity production, but all the heat also really good for district entry, okay, so that's an interesting tech. It obviously comes with complications around security and disposal, if you like, there's our nuclear industry has been allowed to drink like, it's all complicated. So I don't see one silver bullet in technology that I'm like, That's the answer. But what I do see, I'll go back to what we were talking about before is, you know, we had to turn this giant ship of bureaucracy towards new solutions. Okay, that's, that's what we had to do. And now that it's turned and we've got it towards the right course, I'm encouraged by that. I really am. You know, there are champions. And I'll, I'll talk about our city. You know, there's champions in the City of Ottawa who want to see this happen as younger people have graduated into roles and planning and other engineering roles there. They've grown up and gone to school in an age where they understand how critical this climate crisis is, and they're starting to be in positions of power and being in decision making. You know, a lot of my career, we're trying to educate people that there was a problem. Now, the people sitting in those chairs, it, they understand there's a problem, and what can they do about it? And so I am, I am excited that that the there is a next generation sitting in these seats, making decisions, the bureaucracy, the ship is, is almost on course to making this difference. So, so I do think that's encouraging. We have the technology. We really do. It's not rocket science. We just need to get through, you know, the bureaucracy barriers, and we need to find ways to properly finance it.

Trevor Freeman 53:22

Great. I think that's a good place to wrap it up. Scott, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate this conversation and shedding a little bit of light, not just on the technical side of district energy systems, but on the broader context, and as you say, the bureaucracy, the what is needed to make these things happen and to keep going in that right direction. So thanks a lot for your time. I really appreciate it.

Scott Demark 53:43

Thank you, Trevor, good to see you.

Trevor Freeman 53:45

All right. Take care.

Trevor Freeman 53:47

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

View Details

Summer rewind: What does Canada do with excess energy? How is it stored today and how will it be stored as the energy industry evolves? Justin Rangooni, CEO of Energy Storage Canada, shares how energy storage supports a sustainable future for Canadians—from enhanced flexibility to affordability, large-scale grids to individual consumer needs. Listen to episode 152 of thinkenergy to learn about ongoing projects and challenges facing the energy storage sector in Canada.

Related links

● Justin Rangooni on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-rangooni-5063b542/

● Energy Storage Canada: https://www.energystoragecanada.org/

● TC Energy Pump Storage Project: https://www.tcenergy.com/operations/power/pumped-storage-project/

● From Small to Mighty report: https://energyontario.ca/Files/OEA_ESC_From_Small_to_Mighty_Dec_2024.pdf

● Ontario Energy Board: https://www.oeb.ca/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.

Trevor Freeman 00:55

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydroottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. We tend to take for granted that when we flick that light switch on, or we plug in our coffee maker or EV, electricity is there to do what we want it to do. It will light up the room or make our coffee or charge our car or whatever the case may be. But let's take a minute to reflect on the engineering marvel that makes that a reality. The traditional power grid is set up as a one way on demand system, meaning, when you need those electrons for your morning cup of coffee somewhere else, that same amount of electricity needs to be generated pretty much simultaneously. Multiply that one use case by hundreds of millions or likely even billions of devices needing power at any given time, and you can appreciate the challenge. Traditionally, power grids don't store electricity. They need to make sure they're generating enough power for the load that's required at any given time. And as many generation sources can't be instantaneously turned on or off. This requires forecasting, also known as informed guessing, of what the load might be at any given time to make sure that the generation resources needed are up and running. Some forms of generation require a few minutes to turn on and off. Some require a few days or even weeks. In the case of nuclear generation, for example, and others like solar or wind are dependent on weather conditions. So all of this means that often there is some excess generation that needs to go somewhere, and that somewhere is traditionally a neighboring jurisdiction, who will buy that excess power at a pretty low rate. So all that I've described above, while it is an engineering marvel, is a rather inflexible system. The good news is that this is the power grid of yesterday. Well, today, a little bit as well. The grid of tomorrow is shaping up to be much more flexible in terms of when and where we generate and use electricity, and a major tool that will help us get to that state is energy storage. Energy Storage means things that let us generate electricity at a certain point in time, such as when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, or when not a lot of people are using grid electricity, like the middle of the night, but save it to be used later, when the conditions are opposite to those I just mentioned. This opens up loads of possibilities and can help with grid flexibility, for sure, but also other things like customer affordability. So imagine being able to pull cheaper off peak electricity from the grid and use it later when rates are higher during peak times, instead of buying that more expensive power. It supports things like resiliency, so using stored electricity during an outage, for example, and it also lets utilities and system operators pull on different resources on the grid at different times, instead of only having generation to pull from. Energy storage can take many forms, which we'll get into in today's conversation, but certainly, batteries are the ones that we are most familiar with. We're seeing more and more applications for this technology, from home battery systems to large scale Grid applications. In fact, here in Ontario, the Independent System Operator or IESO is working through their long term or LT one RFP, which is looking to procure capacity, including battery storage for grid needs. But some of these projects are facing hurdles, such as opposition from community. Members opposed to project developments in their area over concerns about what those projects mean with the need for more energy storage of all sizes on our grid. I thought this would be a good time to dig into this growing sector and understand it a little bit better. And the perfect person to help us do that is actually someone who's been on the show twice before, Justin Rangoon, he the president and CEO of energy storage Canada. So even though Justin's been on before, I think given what's happening in the news and the evolving sector that he represents, it's great to have him back to talk through some of this stuff together. So energy storage Canada, or ESC is the National Trade Association that's dedicated to advancing Canada's energy storage sector. It's a non profit organization that was established in 2016 and has a diverse membership of more than 85 members, from technology providers to project developers, power generators, utilities like Hydro Ottawa, engineering firms, etc, etc. Justin in particular, is the President and CEO of energy storage Canada, and is a lawyer with more than a decade of experience in Canada's energy sector, specializing in policy and government relations. He's been the executive director since 2019 and has facilitated significant growth within ESC membership, staff, conference offerings, et cetera, to kind of match the pace of accelerated growth in the storage sector. So it's really great to have Justin here today to talk through this with us. Justin Rangooni, welcome to the show. Great to be here again. Thanks for having me. Yeah, actually, that's a great correction or clarification. Welcome back to the show. So I think you're actually the first three Pete guests that we've had on the think energy podcast you've been on twice before, both times with my predecessor, Dan. So great for us to chat for the first time, but welcome back to Think energy for the third time.

Justin Rangooni 06:54

Oh, thank you. It's always good to have the Triple Crown, right? I'm happy to wear it

Trevor Freeman 06:59

and the first one too. So why don't we start right off the bat, Justin, if you don't mind, remind our listeners about the important role that energy storage can and will play for both customer needs as well as for grid management.

Justin Rangooni 07:16

Okay, so the best way to think of it is, there's an analogy that one of our members had always said, and we continue to use it when we talk about energy storage. And the great things that can do is that it's like bacon. It makes everything better. I don't eat bacon, but I take I understand the concept, and what that means is, if you look at from a grid management point of view, is that we have all in Ontario, we're lucky to have a pretty clean grid, if it's nuclear power, or it's water power, or it's intermittent generation like wind and solar and even some gas too, which is which is near zero carbon or don't have coal. So it's a clean grid, and energy storage can make that better in the sense that it will optimize those generation assets so we're not wasting it. So those days before we would hear about when energy is needed but the wind's not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or we don't need the energy and we have to spill water, or, you know, we may have to power down a ramp, down a bit of the nuclear ramp or the natural gas units. Now energy storage can make sure we don't waste that now we can collect that power when it's done, when it's when it's being done, when it's being made, and we're holding it for when it's needed. And from a grid management that is the real key. That is the game changer that energy storage provides. And if we break it down, to the customer themselves. You know, you're trying to think of now, not just helping keep the lights on. We're also talking about your rates now in terms of now we can kind of defer those investments in terms of more generation, because now you have energy storage that's getting more out of it. We're also talking from the distribution side about pools and wires. Maybe you don't you can defer those investments a little longer with more distributed, connected energy storage. So now the customer is starting to see the benefits of energy storage in their rates and in their electricity bill. And look, I just got an electric car. They're really excited about it, and I can see the possibilities of that car being a battery for my home, for my use, which, again, now maybe that's still a bit down the road with B to G and using it to power a residential energy storage unit in my house, but the possibilities are really endless. So this is really the exciting thing about energy storage, from a Grid Manager down to the customer,

Trevor Freeman 09:35

yeah, and I think it's important to think about the different contexts that energy storage can play, or the different roles that it can play for our individual customers, a homeowner, there's a role for storage there, and you get some of those benefits that you just mentioned, but then we can scale that all the way up to the grid level. And you know, us in the utility space also have some things that we can do with. Energy Storage, and like you said, we can manage things a little bit better. We don't have to waste that energy. We can generate it when it's cheap and hold on to it and use it when it's maybe a bit more difficult in those peak periods. So lots of different uses. Thanks for laying that out for us. Now we hear a lot about, you know, decentralization and community-based energy systems, kind of more control at the community level when it comes to energy what's the role of energy storage in systems like that?

Justin Rangooni 10:32

Well, I think that's energy storage can really make that a reality. Now, again, I think I'll go back to my example having an electric car. It seems like more getting closer to being more a prosumer than just a consumer now. So I can see the possibilities of using electric vehicle you could and then you start to pair that with other kind of your thermostat or your other smart technologies in your home. So now, when we're talking about decentralizing community based energy systems, the consumer, the utility, the system operator, you're all able to get in the space of playing with the technologies. And that's really again, where it gets kind of exciting that everyone's playing a role. There's different possibilities to use, and we think energy storage is the key to doing that, because it can store that energy when it's not needed, and you can use it when it's needed. And if the technology evolution continues, eventually, the homeowner, the business owner, can start to use that. I can use buy power from the cars. I can use my power that I'm generating myself or from the distribution grid. And now I can start to play with it and use it store overnight when rates are low or when there's excess supply. I could store that energy and use it when it's needed during the day. So really exciting times, and that's why we think energy storage is key to any decentralized or community based energy systems.

Trevor Freeman 11:51

Yeah, it really unlocks that ability to push control into the hands of the end user, whether that's the homeowner or the business owner. The community, kind of pushes it downstream into their hands. So as I mentioned up top, you've been on the show before. I think the last time was 2021 which, I mean, doesn't seem like that long ago, in some sense, and also seems like decades ago. What has changed in the world of energy storage since the last time you were on the show? Oh,

Justin Rangooni 12:20

oh, how much has changed? Geez, like that does seem like a very long time ago. I think the Toronto Raptors were only two years coming out of an NBA championship, and we thought maybe we'll get some more, get some more long playoff runs. And that's right, still living the high on that. That's right, or still living the high back then? Well, since 2021 like, a massive amount has changed in the sector. You know, we're seeing incredible growth across Canada. I think when we first chatted back then, you know, we were talking about the energy storage potential, specifically in Ontario. And since that time, we've seen one of the largest procurements for energy storage technologies, and really globally, take place in Ontario, with over 3000 megawatts of contract contracts awarded in that time, and we're looking at more in subsequent rounds of procurements for the rest of the decade, including one of the first of the kind procurements focused on long lead time or long duration energy storage technologies, which does get very interesting, because now you're looking just beyond batteries, or just beyond lithium batteries. Now you're looking at things that can store power, six, 812, hours, days, weeks, even seasons. If you really think about it, it's really exciting. We've seen the growth in Ontario. And it's not just there. You look across the country, Nova Scotia, since that time, announced 350 megawatt battery energy storage projects. Alberta already has over 100 megawatts providing value and what their market design consultation is going on now we expect to see a lot more. BC is a 600 megawatt target. Saskatchewan installed a 50 megawatt desk system. And you're looking at projects big and small, transmission, connected, dx connected, being announced, implemented, you know, across the country, and just more as we speak.

Trevor Freeman 13:59

Yeah. So those long lead was just maybe for my own curiosity. Everybody's probably pretty familiar with battery technology, and if you're not, it's really the same concept as the batteries you put in, I don't know, your remote control, or in your phone or your car. Now, scaled up, what are some of those technologies as that energy storage technology that provides that long duration storage time that you were just mentioning. So

Justin Rangooni 14:22

you're looking at possibly different battery chemistries, like zinc, vanadium, for instance, like, again, different elements critical minerals that are found that can actually do their technological process, and what it can hold, can hold that energy for even longer. So you're looking at different battery chemistries. You're also looking for different methods of energy storage, like compressed air. Wow, which, again, there's a Canadian company which is one of our members of hydro store, and is doing great work getting ready for that in other parts of the world, where it's basically taking air, compressing it into underground caverns, saving that energy potential, and then releasing it to. Create electricity when it's needed, then you have thermal storage. And again, some Canadian companies are really looking in and on that one in terms of using, you know, heating molten salts or molten rocks for thermal storage, and eating that, that energy potential, and using and keeping it there and then using it for when it's needed. And I go think back to the batteries. There's, there's easing, which is, which is an Ontario company based out of Etobicoke that's looking at zinc based batteries for that long duration, and not to mention even pump storage, which has been around for decades. And we heard a recent announcement of moving the ball forward on TC energy's pump storage project in medieval again, that's a long duration energy storage project, again, doing more, doing it more than the four hour lithium batteries, but you get all those options available for a system operator then, then it gets really interesting that they can see what they need and what time and what storage technology to to rely on.

Trevor Freeman 15:55

Yeah. So for our listeners, I mean, you might be familiar with hydro generation, you take water that's flowing downhill, whether it's a waterfall or just a river, and use that momentum to turn a turbine. Pumped Storage would be taking that that water, actually pumping it uphill and holding it there and then when you want to generate electricity, letting it flow down through the turbine, and just repeating that process over and over again. So thanks. Thanks for sharing that with us. I think it's important to recognize that like any technology, things kind of move forward. They iterate, they improve, and as we see more adoption that technology, it speeds up the process of that iteration, and we see jumps forward in the technology and its efficiency. So we've talked about the importance for grid management, for cost, sort of reliability, but there are folks out there whose main driver is reducing their carbon footprint. So understanding that energy use often has a carbon aspect to it, how can energy storage help, whether that's a business or an industry, help them reduce their carbon

Justin Rangooni 17:01

footprint? That's a great question. And what energy storage can do is, traditionally, before energy storage technologies started to mature and be more economically viable, like we're seeing right now, a lot of companies, a lot of new communities and had a lot of access to electricity, reliable electricity would use diesel generation as backup. So that's dirtier, that's like, it's not good for the environment. But now energy storage can provide that different option. Now you can install an energy storage system, smaller battery, for instance, to provide that backup system, if that's what the reason you need it. But again, because now you have that battery, well, it's not just there for backup. Now you can use it for helping smooth those peaks. A lot of industrial customers, especially Ontario too, are using behind what's called behind the meter energy storage to really help mitigate or manage that electricity use during peak times where they don't necessarily have to rely on the grid. They can use that battery that's installed. Again, low carbon footprint, if at all, you're just using the clean electricity that's on the grid to power that battery, and now you're using that battery and reducing the pressure that's on the grid during those peak periods. So not only decarbonization, you're applying reliability, and it's really good for affordability reasons, and so that's why you're seeing a lot of interest from the CNI type customers.

Trevor Freeman 18:19

Awesome. Are you seeing an increased pace in the adoption of energy storage? Are we kind of hitting that technology adoption curve where it's starting to pick up, or has it been relatively stable the last couple of

Justin Rangooni 18:32

years? Well, I would say we're still in the growth mode. And I always like to say that the sector is growing as us the association energy storage Canada's growing. Our members keep getting bigger. Our conference keeps getting bigger. The amount of submissions and work and like podcasts like this and getting questions about it continue to grow. And it goes with the sector that it's still growing. There are provinces like Ontario that are ahead of the game right now, but there's others that are coming now. Provinces like Saskatchewan is starting to look more at energy storage. So in a few years, they'll might be where Ontario is. So everyone's coming at different angles, and it's because of the technology advancements for energy storage. It's also the economics have started to go down, but it's also that they are seeing, we really need that reliable backup power, or reliable electricity to help keep the lights on while keeping rates low, and they're seeing energy storage, that's the option that they really need to look at. So we are way beyond now science experiments and pilot projects, but we're still not there where it's starting to plateau. I'm not sure when that happens. I hope maybe it never happens. Maybe it just keeps going. The technology will advance, but just keep happening. So it's a really fun kind of we're still riding the wave, I would say,

Trevor Freeman 19:41

Yeah, awesome. So you gave a bit of an outlook on the Canadian landscape. Are there other jurisdictions around the world that are real leaders when it comes to energy storage, you know, policy or adoption, or where they are, compared to Canada? You know

Justin Rangooni 19:55

what? We're starting to see that almost like everywhere. So obviously us, they lead. Their leaders, a lot of the ways, similar to us, their states have different priorities, different reasons for using it, just like we have our provinces. So states like California are have a lot of energy storage to make use of the intermittent solar generation that they have. Texas, also, maybe with solar, too, is using a lot of energy storage. But interesting, like the red state, the Republican state of Texas, is embracing innovative technologies like energy storage. Because, if you recall, during their winter storm they had they ran like their power was really short. So what did they look at going forward, saying, we need to make sure that we have a reliable system. And entered and they started to really embrace energy storage. So if it's decarbonization goals, if it's reliability goals, if it's a priority, goals are really driving a lot of the policy directions in the US, in Europe, in China, in Asia, China, Japan, Korea, they're all looking to install more energy storage. Again, it's not, it's not just like politically neutral. It's almost like country neutral, that you can put this anywhere. It's scalable, it's portable. And that's the beauty of energy storage.

Trevor Freeman 21:08

Yeah. I mean, it's a good reminder that when you get right down to it, when you cut through all the noise, good ideas, you know, kind of transcend politics and transcend political parties or rhetoric. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea and it's and it's going to happen. Okay? So I want to dive into a report that you kind of partnered with the Ontario Energy Association recently on the reports called from small to mighty unlocking ders to meet Ontario's electricity needs. So in this report, you outline a policy and regulatory framework that is aimed at enabling widespread adoption of DERs, which includes energy storage. Can you talk us through the main principles of that framework?

Justin Rangooni 21:52

Sure, and this is a great collaboration between the Ontario Energy Association trying to look at everyone's been talking about distributed energy storage or energy resources as kind of the next phase, the next piece of the energy puzzle in Ontario, and really for Canada. But we're looking Ontario here to meet our capacity needs that are being forecasted by the IEA. So, so what we thought working with the OEA was, can we come out with a paper that kind of looks at a roadmap to how do we really start to implement DERs, and that includes the utilities in Ontario, that includes the private entities and companies who want to install and own and help own and operate these DERs. So what this paper really looks at is, you know, it supports the development of an overarching policy and regulatory framework to enable DERs to play a much larger role in Ontario's electricity resource needs to support economic growth. So we're recommending that for Ontario government to issue policy directions to the Ontario Energy bowl or to the ISO to really enable LDCs like Hydro Ottawa led der procurements, as well as make grid modernization investments necessary to integrate and manage DERs, because we believe enabling an LDC led der procurement stream builds on LDCs existing responsibility and aligns with the development of future local markets for distribution services and really to play In that upcoming ISO wholesale market enhancements to better integrate DERs. So it's kind of bringing DERs into that game. So it's not just relying on centralized generation, which speaks really well to what energy storage kind of does. It's you can play in a wholesale market. It's a tech transmission connector. It could also be distribution connected. So that's why we consider it as a big piece of this der puzzle, distributed energy storage.

Trevor Freeman 23:43

Yeah. So I mean, you've outlined kind of that engagement piece and encouraging the regulatory bodies, our levels of government, to enable more DERs to happen. What does that engagement look like to support the industry's growth? How are you engaging with policymakers?

Justin Rangooni 24:00

Well, this is one of the great things of having a dedicated trade association, like energy stores. You know, we our team is growing. We're about six now. Across the country. We have a great we have fantastic 100, over 100 members, including Hydro Ottawa, who help us develop these policy submissions. And we have various working groups dedicated either Ontario wholesale or distributed energy storage or BC, Alberta, federal, Atlantic, Canada as well, what have you. And this is how we engage policy makers. We are able to tap into the expertise of our members and get their feedback and then bring that common consensus position focus exclusively on energy storage, nothing else. We do this 24 hours, seven days a week, 365, days a year, and we bring this to decision makers, if it's the regulator, the system operator and governments. So when we're talking about DERs, or we're talking about anything else, we're bringing that pure energy storage perspective that no one else can bring, and so they're seeing, i. Us is that trusted voice for the sector, and that's how we're really seeing a lot of momentum, and we are moving the ball down the

Trevor Freeman 25:06

field Great. What is the role that you guys play when it comes to fostering innovation and investment in new storage solutions? It's kind of that, you know, iterative process where technology improves over time. How are you and how is it energy storage Canada sort of helping speed that along. I

Justin Rangooni 25:25

think one of the best examples was with Ontario's procurement. They were really interested in long lead time, or long duration energy storage. So to help ISO get comfortable with the concept, because of our membership continues to grow, we have members who are dedicated to long energy storage. So we were able to facilitate introductions. We were able to group meetings, bring them to talk about their technologies to the ISO. And we'll do this again. We'll replicate this across the country as well. And it gets the ISO comfortable where they can ask all the questions that they could ever have about that into that company's LDS technology. And it gets them comfortable to start to frame the procurement so they'll know what technologies are available now, what technology may be available in, say, five years time, but then they can start applying so this is how we foster innovation and new storage solutions. We bring our members, facilitate those meetings with decision makers, and that really, can really start to get things moving

Trevor Freeman 26:18

when it comes to those new technology. So you mentioned, you know, having line of sight into what's coming five years down the road. I know earlier in the conversation, we were talking about, you know, different battery chemistries, different technologies. Is there anything coming up that isn't viable today or doesn't work today, or we may not be aware of today that you see as the next thing, the next technology that looks promising for deployment in the coming five or 10 years.

Justin Rangooni 26:45

You know what I would think a better way to look at it is, I think there's a knowledgeable a lot of the existing technologies, even if you look at lithium batteries, which is the most prevalent right now, where lithium batteries will be in five years, will probably look a lot different than it is now in terms of its efficiency, of how long, how many hours, it could be considered a long duration asset in five years time. And you can think of any of the other newer technologies that are coming now saying, oh, you know, I'm ready now. Or I need a long lead time. It might take me a year to have built in five years time that that, construction timeline could be shorter. So in this nascent sector, which is really brewing with so many great ideas and innovation, it's going to change year to year. Who knows by the end of the decade, how many different types of energy storage technologies are viable right now? That's what I'm really excited about. Where a system operator somewhere in this country will say, I need some capacity now. And now they could almost do it as the menu. I could pick the location I need it in, I need I need a certain duration, I need a certain size. And they can look at the menu of energy storage technologies that are really available now and start to kind of pick them off and say, Well, maybe, maybe this combination will really

Trevor Freeman 27:57

work. Yeah, having options really addresses multiple needs and different folks that have different drivers can sort of pick and choose what makes the most sense for them. Like any new technology or newer technology, it often starts with, you know, high capital costs. Those with the deep pockets are able to really engage in it first, but then over time, that comes down. So I'm curious, kind of, on the economics of it. Are there any trends that you're seeing when it comes to investment in energy storage projects in Canada that you're seeing over time? Yeah, I

Justin Rangooni 28:31

think there's a couple of buckets you can look at. You can look at, like strategic government support for programs. So when we first started, I think when we first talked, probably in 2021 where I just, kind of, I started in 2019 in this role, and we were talking to the federal government, saying, you grab all these great programs for other generation assets, why not create one for energy storage that can start to really help the project economics? So they created the smart renewable electricity Pathways Program. Then came the investment tax credits. So those are great examples of government support programs to really help this sector as it's growing. Will those be needed in five years plus time? Maybe not, maybe not. Maybe then it try, maybe it pivots to the newer energy storage technologies to help so but strategic government support is a is a great driver of it. You saw that in the US with their investment Reduction Act program, the RR, the IRA, which started to launch a lot of ITCs for different energy technologies, like energy store. And you saw the market boom. It really started making the economics better. And it just made helped on rates, where people were able to start looking at different innovative technologies. So strategic government support is key private sector engagement as well. And you're looking at that on the the AI start of things like the big data centers. They want to power their own clean supply of generation, and they're going to need energy storage to provide that 24/7 power. So they're willing to dole out money for. Are ESG goals as well. There's companies, hopefully still out there who still want to pursue ESG goals. So they're going to be looking at cleaner energy solutions and help and energy storage obviously plays a role in there. There's international collaborations with different governments, where Canada's part of talking about, you know, what can we do to share R and D to really advance different sorts of technologies. So really, it's government, it's the public, it's public together, and it's private altogether, doing this investment trends.

Trevor Freeman 30:30

Yeah, I mean, great answer, and you kind of answered my next question, or my follow up question, which is, what are some of the levers that we can lean on to encourage investment and to sort of speed up that investment. And I think you've hit the nail on the head there of the role that sort of government can play. We've talked on the show before about the role that government can play in sort of jump starting technology and using investments and tax credits to help get nascent technology off the ground until it's market ready. And we're seeing that in the in the storage space, the role of, you know, private entities with strong drivers, like data centers, for example, to come in and say, look, we've got a need here, and we see that energy storage can fulfill part of that need, and we're willing to pay in order to make that happen. And that also helps move the industry along and move the technology forward. So those are great examples. Thanks for highlighting that. Let's dive in a little bit into the technology. Here. One question that often comes up, maybe by by those more resistant to the technology, is, well, what about end of life? What about the environmental impacts when it comes to, you know, battery storage, in particular, the rare earth metals that go into that the mining required. Talk to us a little bit about some of the sustainability considerations regarding batteries, end of life. Can they be recycled? What? What happens? How are we mitigating that, that environmental impact?

Justin Rangooni 32:01

Yeah, I think these are excellent questions to ask, if you look on the recycling end of life, because we're at kind of the starting point of enabling energy storage. We're talking about batteries, specifically with these recent Ontario contracts. So these are 20 years contracts, so these batteries are going to last a while. You know? They might get replaced every 10 years. But what you're seeing is a lot of interesting Canadian companies. So there's a store, there's there BC, for example, is looking to be one of the leaders in not just EV, not just battery energy storage recycling, but electric vehicles and other recycling as well. So companies like tax and moment energy are taking you this opportunity while this window is open right now, see, how is it best to recycle these batteries? So either you're going to break them down to recycle them as much as you can in the most environmentally sensitive way, or can you now repurpose them? So a lot are looking at electric vehicle batteries that may come to life much sooner than battery energy storage system, let's say six to eight years, then repurposing those to say, well, we can get more life out of these. Could be battery, energy, standalone systems for another eight to 10 years. So there are recycling options, there's refurbishing options, and then there's just breaking down the components. And here is the opportunity for Canada to be a leader. You have this window. So there's interest, there's, there's, there's startup companies, and there's a lot of interest. So if Canada could do this, right, you know, we could be a leader in the recycling of EVs and battery energy storage.

Trevor Freeman 33:29

Yeah, it's like, it's the old. I don't know if it's a cliche or an adage, but somebody's problem is another person's opportunity, right? The challenge of a new technology, having a battery that gets to end of life at some point creates opportunity, whether that's in the recycling of it or and I'm glad you brought that up. It's one of my favorite examples or potential use cases of you know, an EV battery gets to the point where it can no longer provide the required power for moving a car down the highway at highway speeds, but it still can provide the kind of power that a house might need for backup power, for peak shaving or for reliability, whatever the case may be. So just because it's end of life in one use case doesn't necessarily mean it's end of life in another use case. I think that's a great example. I really like hearing that one. So one other thing that comes up when we talk about these maybe larger scale battery energy storage installations is safety, public safety. And there's a bit of a question mark, I think, in the public mind of, well, are these safe? Are we going to be at risk if we're near to one of these facilities? I think people are generally familiar with or even maybe even if they aren't familiar with it, they feel like they are when it comes to other types of generation, for example. But battery is a bit of an unknown. Are these battery installations? Are they safe? What are some of the safety considerations, and how is the industry addressing those?

Justin Rangooni 34:58

No and. And the short answer is, these are safe. As you mentioned at the outset, this technology is the same lithium batteries that are in your phone that you might put near your head when you're falling asleep, that you're plugging in overnight you're in your kitchen or your living room, what have you now, because they are bigger scale and the questions there they have to follow the correct procedures and installation. So what we rely on, obviously, our members adhere to the latest safety standards, the latest fire safety measures that have to take in the low risk that this might happen. What we also do, and we'll make a plug for these two members of ours who have been really helpful to us. It's Hillier Safety Group. Hillier and energy safety response group. So these are two members of ours who have especially with esrg. They are there. They are firefighters and ex firefighters who test batteries, energy storage system to and then take learnings and best practices from it. So we've encouraged and esrg goes out with our members. They go with the ISO. They do webinars that we host with them, speaking about how as a firefighter, they say, we test these things if they're installed correctly, if you're using the correct like a reputable company, and you ask about the mitigation measures these things are safe and in the low risk that these things might catch on fire by letting it burn out. It might not look so good sometimes, but that is actually the safest way. And there have been instances which I think were referenced and people talk about like in New York, and there was one in Los Angeles and and it, and they've done studies after this to say, Okay, what was the impact after nothing in the air, nothing in the soil, nothing in the water, it just burned itself out. Now, as the technology in the sector advances, you're going to see a lower risk of that. The numbers in the US actually say be as the number of battery in energy storage systems have increased, the incidence of these risks have gone down dramatically. And the reason is that technology is advancing. The safety measures are advancing, the standards are are advancing. So these things are becoming safer and safer. But if you're a community member and you have questions, ask the developer these questions. Say to them, what battery are you using? Is this a reputable company? How many What measures do you have in place in case something does happen? And these are all great questions to ask, and those who are our members of energy storage Canada, you know they will, they will be able to answer those and provide that comfort.

Trevor Freeman 37:27

Absolutely great, good answer. Okay, final question here, What is the long term vision for energy storage Canada? You know, we're seeing movement in the sector. We're seeing more adoption. Where do you kind of see your organization, your association, going in the coming years. We expect

Justin Rangooni 37:46

it to continue to grow as the sector grows. And really what we want to see is that in every jurisdiction, with every utility, and soon to get down to the residential that they're seeing energy storage technologies as a viable option. So if you're a system operator, or you're a government and you're looking at the supply mix and saying, Well, how are we going to make sure we can keep the lights on while keeping rates low, energy storage is like, if not the first option, it is up there. And that's really the vision. Now this is seen as a mainstream resource, that it is no question that you wouldn't look at energy storage as part of your solution, on the distribution level or at the transmission level. So the very exciting vision, and again, we talked about the residential and becoming a prosumer, and then that really is the opportunities start to become even more endless.

Trevor Freeman 38:34

Yeah, it's one of the things. I mean, our listeners are probably roll their eyes because they hear me say this all the time. But one of the things I like about being in this sector, this kind of energy space, is exactly that you can see the vision for how these various technologies, these strategies, this sort of new way of dealing with energy, seem really exciting and really cool, but they're also not that far down the road, like we're in the midst of this change when it comes to all this technology, I think energy storage is a perfect example of that, where just a couple years ago, maybe four or five years ago, it was hard to even imagine where we are today and where we'll be in the very near future, because things are changing so fast. So I share your excitement for that vision. Thanks for sharing that with us, and no doubt, energy storage Canada will have a big role to play in that today and in the years to come. Justin, thanks very much for this conversation. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions, so I'm going to fire those at you now, and we'll see. We'll see what you come up with. So first question is always, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Okay,

Justin Rangooni 39:45

that's a great question. This is my favorite part of these podcast interviews, really. Um, we saw a little political jump junkie who likes Pulitzer Prize winning books, so I kind of focus on political history. So if you want. Ever want to read any of those that are the best? I would say the Teddy Roosevelt trilogy by Edwin Morris is a must read. They're fantastic. So that's when I read those. I'm like, Okay, this was, are you gonna top this? So you're always chasing that next book to read like that. That's

Trevor Freeman 40:16

awesome. I just as a complete aside, my kids school does this big used book sale every year, and it was just this past weekend, and you never know what you're going to find when you're like, wandering through the aisles and there's books there that you never heard of, and you pick something up. So I have this new stack of books at home that I can dive through, and I'm the same with you. I like to, yeah, read about some historical figure or some, like, important period when it comes to policy, and just kind of, yeah, try and get myself into that headspace. So, same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show you watch that you think everybody should

Justin Rangooni 40:52

Oh, well, it's gonna take, like, almost the exact opposite of like, seriousness. But you know, the officer Veep, you know you can go to those anytime, like just long lasting stand up. I think we're gonna be watching those episodes in the next 30 years, even though Veep is getting kind of more real than I think they originally thought.

Trevor Freeman 41:13

And yeah, in a kind of scary way, but I hear you, yeah, it's good to have those classics that you can always go back to if someone offered you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where

Justin Rangooni 41:24

would you go? Well, as we're taping this, and it's winter and it's cold and there's snow, probably somewhere like Fiji or Bora, Bora, where it's warm and there's beaches, so especially the warmth is where we're really emphasizing right now, I hear you in February.

Trevor Freeman 41:39

Yeah, absolutely. That's the joy and the curse of living in Canada. Who is someone that you admire?

Justin Rangooni 41:47

Well, I'd say you for doing these podcasts, but that is pretty cool that you're doing. Nate, so I appreciate it. You're on the list. Otherwise, I would say otherwise, frontline workers, you know, for even talking about even our sector, you know, you got lines men, you got people who are putting their lives on the line, nurses, teachers, doctors, police officers. You know, those who, every day are putting are on that front lines to do something for others. I think that's those are the real heroes out there.

Trevor Freeman 42:15

Awesome, great answer. And finally, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about. And I know we kind of just talked about this, but I'll let you, I'll let you elaborate.

Justin Rangooni 42:26

Oh, it's an easy one, that it's continually evolving like nothing is stagnant. The way things are. We've seen today are going to change tomorrow, and energy storage is a fantastic example of that, where we first talked to 2021 Oh, we were just getting started now. Here we are, and the momentum is growing. If you have me again in another couple years, who knows where we're going to be at that time? So it's really exciting to see where, where it's going.

Trevor Freeman 42:50

Absolutely awesome. Great answer. Justin, thanks very much for your time. I appreciate the conversation. I appreciate your passion and excitement for this pretty cool technology that's going to have a big role to play as we kind of navigate this energy transition, and really already is playing a big role. So thanks for coming on. Thanks for your time and appreciate the

Speaker 1 43:08

conversation. Thanks for having me, Trevor talk again, my friend, awesome. Take care.

Trevor Freeman 43:15

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at think energy, at hydro ottawa.com, you.

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Powering tomorrow: investing in Ottawa’s energy future Hydro Ottawa recently unveiled its 2026-2030 investment plan focused on modernizing and strengthening the grid. The way we’re consuming energy is changing, and this investment plan focuses on four key areas that highlight why Hydro Ottawa is taking action, how they plan on doing it, and what it all means for you.

Hydro Ottawa’s Chief Operating Officer, Distribution and Generation, Guillaume Paradis, joins thinkenergy to dive a little deeper into those focus areas, and why they matter, with host Trevor Freeman.

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• Guillaume Paradis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07 Welcome to ThinkEnergy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.Hi everyone, and welcome back. A few episodes back, I talked about some of the important work that happens at the distribution level to maintain and expand our grid, and I tried to connect the dots between that work and the broader societal energy transition that is happening at all levels—how the work we do at the distribution level is really important and tied to some of those larger projects that may get a little bit more news and attention. That energy transition, which, as you're hopefully aware by now, is ongoing right now; it's not something of the future, it's happening today. That energy transition is multifaceted, but from an electricity and electrification perspective, the distribution utility—i.e., the Hydro Ottawa of whatever jurisdiction you're in—is at the very leading edge of many of the changes we need to see within our electricity system to support that transition.So today, I'd like to go a little bit further with that topic and focus on Hydro Ottawa's next five-year investment plan, which covers the 2026 to 2030 period. This will be the largest investment plan in our history as a company, and I wanted to dig into what we have identified as key focus areas for investment in the coming five years. With more than 100 years of operating a large, complex distribution network, Hydro Ottawa is embarking on a pretty significant journey to modernize and strengthen our grid for the challenges and opportunities ahead of us. We have filed our 2026 to 2030 electricity distribution rate application, as it's called, with the Ontario Energy Board. This is a standard practice for all local distribution companies in Ontario; that's what we have to do. As a reminder for our listeners, the Ontario Energy Board, or OEB, as we often call it, is our independent regulator. Their mission in this process is to strike a balance between ensuring the financial health and operational needs of utilities like Hydro Ottawa, while also safeguarding the affordability and reliability of the service for the customer. So they want to make sure that we're spending enough to tackle the right projects on the grid to make sure it stays operational while not spending too much. They meticulously scrutinize every detail of these applications to ensure that the proposed rates are just and reasonable and that all investments are prudent and truly in the public interest.So we have gotten a number of questions about the plan, and specifically around, "Where is the money going to go? What are you going to actually spend these dollars that you're requesting on? And why are these investments necessary? What benefits are they actually going to bring to our community?" And often we get the question of, "Does this mean fewer outages or shorter outages?" So I want to dig into that. I want to talk a little bit about what we've got planned and what the impact will be, and what the impact would be if we don't do those things. And to help me walk through that energy roadmap, that plan that we've put together, I've got Guillaume Paradis joining me today. Guillaume is the Chief Operating Officer of Generation and Distribution here at Hydro Ottawa, and he's going to join me, and we're going to talk through this. Guillaume and his teams are responsible for the planning, design, operation, construction, and maintenance of our electrical power distribution system, and in his role, he leads the teams that are directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient, and reliable delivery of electricity to our customers. Today, I'm going to ask Guillaume to really walk us through the details of our investment plan, how it was shaped, how we came up with these specific areas, and what benefits are going to be realized by our community and the broader energy landscape. Guillaume Paradis, welcome to the show.

Guillaume Paradis 04:24 Pleasure to be here, Trevor.

Trevor Freeman 04:26 Okay, so Guillaume, this is Hydro Ottawa's largest investment plan ever, and I'd like you to start by talking us through the primary drivers behind what our five-year investment plan is.

Guillaume Paradis 04:41 Yeah, so as you've heard, as you've seen, we're at a historical, or historically, you know, unique point in the evolution of our industry. Electricity underpins most of our societal aspirations with respect to creating, you know, a more sustainable future, creating the future we want to leave for the next generations. And our distribution system underpins a lot of those aspirations in simple ways and in more complex ways. So, you know, a simple way is that essentially, for, you know, the well-being of our society, for our customers, the residents of Ottawa, and really any area, to live the lives they're hoping to live, to, you know, enjoy the benefits of modern life, electricity is a critical underpinning in any way you can imagine and you know, think about. So our service has always been very important. It's just become even more critical as a foundational block for, you know, the lives that we're hoping to live and we're living today in our modern society. So that, combined with other aspirations related to reducing our carbon footprint and integrating more renewable energy resources within our footprint, it creates a situation where there's a significant need for us to invest, continue to invest, and reinvest in our infrastructure to deliver those outcomes for customers.

Trevor Freeman 06:28 Yeah, I think, I mean, we talk a lot about the energy transition on the show, and if, if you think about, you know, let's say our previous rate application, five years ago, the energy transition was a thing; we knew about it, but it was like a thing of tomorrow where, hey, that's going to come soon. The difference now, I assume, and maybe you can speak to this, is we're seeing that. We're seeing the change now.

Guillaume Paradis 06:52 Yeah, you're exactly correct. Like, we're in it now. So we've been talking about it for some time, both from a, like a general societal aspiration standpoint, but also from a technological standpoint. For a very long time, we talked about electric vehicles having an impact and becoming more commonplace. We talked about leveraging automation to deliver our services. We talked about two-way power flows. So we've been building toward this moment, and now we're essentially in it, if you will, and we're seeing all those things, the confluence of all those longer-term trends sort of manifest themselves in real demand for our system, in real changes in how our customers want to use energy. And we're in the middle of that, and we're, you know, to enable those things happening in our community here in Ottawa.

Trevor Freeman 07:49 Yeah, so it's like the business as usual, a lot of the same things, and we're going to talk about some of the specifics, but a lot of the same things we would normally do, just a lot more of at the same time as, like, also pivoting a little bit to meet some of these new needs, like charging transportation and like heating our spaces more with electricity, like some of these new needs that didn't exist or not to the same extent. So it's like more of the same plus other new stuff. And we're going to talk about that in a minute.

Guillaume Paradis 08:23 Yeah. So, you know, we always would say that the future of the energy sector was very exciting, and things were coming and like, change was upon us, and now, essentially, we're, we're living it, right? So you have to carry on with the responsibilities that you always had, and meanwhile, figure out how to deliver those new outcomes, those new services that previously weren't required or expected.

Trevor Freeman 08:51 Right? So let's, let's kind of get into some of the details here. So there are four key capital investment categories in this plan: growth and electrification, aging infrastructure, grid modernization, and grid resilience. So we're going to dive into the specifics of these in a minute. But to start off with, why? Why these four? How did we land on these four as the main categories?

Guillaume Paradis 09:20 Yeah, so there's, there's various ways you can categorize investments. There's a lot of drivers that will lead us to invest in an area or replace some infrastructure somewhere in our system. These categories capture quite well what is at the core of various investments. So for one specific investment, there will be multiple drivers, but these ones sort of in an elegant way, I would say, capture, you know, why investments are occurring, what the primary driver is for those investments, and they help translate that for, you know, folks who are not involved day-to-day in planning the electricity system, that's our responsibility. What we're trying to communicate is why we're taking action where we're taking action. So those categories, in my mind, capture that really well. They also tie our investments to broad trends that people should be aware of, and they're a way to make sure that we have, you know, a clear baseline for a conversation as we proceed with those plans.

Trevor Freeman 10:30 Yeah, one thing I find, and you know, in my role, I talk to customers a lot, and I find these are fairly easy to explain, or at least, I hope they are. If you're listening and you disagree, let us know. But people can kind of get their heads around why the utility needs to do each of these four things, and some, in some ways, they align with other sectors as well. So I think, and I hope, as we carry on our conversation here, it'll be easy to sort of build out the picture of what we're doing in each of those four areas. So why don't we? Let's dive right in then and look at the specifics. And starting with growth and electrification, what are the specific investments that are planned to support the growing energy needs of our community, you know? And we've already started talking about electric vehicles, other electrified aspects of our lives, like, what? What falls into this category?

Guillaume Paradis 11:23 Yeah, so with respect to growth and electrification, there are a few underlying trends that drive the investment requirements. So as you've suggested, as you mentioned, you know, there's an evolution of how our customers use energy at home, day-to-day. EVs being obviously a primary example that everyone will be very aware of, just, you know, driving around town. Frankly, the difference in how regularly you'll see electric vehicles in our community relative to even five years ago is pretty dramatic, and that is having a long-term, you know, impact over time, likewise for technologies like heat pumps at home and just generally, the growth of our community. So those elements just drive a longer-term trend of more demand being present in our community, within our system, and in addition to that, one big change that we've seen over the last few years is more large-scale demand requests coming into our service territory. Typically that will be large customers wanting to do something different with energy. So it could go or it could be driven by a few different kind of corporate aspirations. What we're seeing a lot of are instances where large corporations decide, or institutions decide to do away with more carbon-intensive energy sources, so they will look to us and electricity to replace what previously would have been another fuel source that maybe is less green. So we're seeing that affecting choices some of those type of customers are making, and then at the same time, we're seeing just large requests related to a different type of energy demand. So companies wanting to, for example, bring back their R&D efforts to a data center that they operate and they control, so that they have more control over cybersecurity, you know, elements, and then likewise, with where their data flows to and how it's being managed. So we're seeing large requests at a rate that we didn't previously, and that those requests are significant enough that they require us to make very major investments, like new substations, like building out new feeders, again at a pace that far outpaces what we've seen historically. So the underlying trend of more small demand creating an impact at the aggregate level, combined with those larger requests, that's creating a significant need for us to invest in responding to that growth in the electrification drivers within our system.

Trevor Freeman 14:42 Yeah, so this is in response to what we're seeing our customers do, and that's it's something that has come up before in conversation here, of, you know, we, we respond to what we see our customers doing and what our customers are asking us. They're asking for more power. We have to respond to provide that more power. So this. So this kind of area of investment is really just building out the grid and all of the assets and infrastructure that are that make up the grid to be able to meet the needs of our customers, which are growing faster than they were previously. Is that fair to say?

Guillaume Paradis 15:17 Yeah, and for us, it's an interesting balancing act. We have to find where we have to anticipate our customers' needs and the demand that's upon us, but we can't get ahead of it, because that would draw investments that potentially would later become stranded or create a cost burden for our customers. So we have to know where the demand is going, and we have to be ready to respond and connect new customers, but we can't get too far ahead of it, because ultimately, you know, if we invest too soon, that's, you know, a burden for all our customers. So sometimes I would say there's that misconception that somehow we're we're creating our own forecasts and believing our own forecasts. And really, it's a bit simpler than that. We take in the requests and we respond to those requests. We have to be able to look out a few years to make sure that we're not missing, you know, anything significant that would have an impact on our system, but we don't get too far ahead from an investment standpoint.

Trevor Freeman 16:31 Okay? So Guillaume, we've been talking about the more traditional aspects of our grid, you know, poles, wires, transformers, et cetera. But I know that we're also looking at how we can deploy what we call non-wire solutions to also help manage capacity on our grid. Can you just explain what some of these solutions are and how we're going to use them in conjunction with our traditional assets to manage grid needs?

Guillaume Paradis 16:56 Yeah, so non-wire alternatives is essentially the concept that without having to install traditional infrastructure—think poles, new transformers, new cables, underground—you may be able to harvest existing resources within your footprint to help you manage operational needs, be it like certain peaks that have a short duration, other scenarios of constraints, where, rather than building net new infrastructure, which is expensive and time-consuming, you might be able to optimize, I'll call it, the use of embedded resources in a manner that actually meets your operational objectives. So the way you would do that is by using a combination of resources. Typically, you would look at small-scale embedded storage. So if it exists in the system, you would actually leverage it. If, if you could, otherwise, you might install some in a very targeted manner that helps you meet those operational needs, and then otherwise you would leverage customer resources. So that's either existing generation that is owned by customers, or which is more typical, their ability to adjust their demand at certain times to meet your operational constraints. So the idea there is that you can do a business case, you can do an evaluation of what it would take to engage all these resources to get the same operational outcome as you would if you build the new infrastructure, and compare the two on a cost basis. And actually, in some instances, see scenarios where those non-wire alternatives actually beat out large-scale infrastructure upgrades from a financial standpoint. So it's, it's an evolving area. We have a few pockets within the city that we're targeting for programs like those ones, and we expect, over time, as more embedded resources proliferate, as more customer devices become controllable, we'll have a greater option, in fact, to leverage those non-wire alternatives or those non-traditional solutions to meet our operational requirements.

Trevor Freeman 19:20 Great. So this is a combination of, you know, Hydro Ottawa is planning to invest in some assets, you know, be they battery or otherwise, on our side of the meter. We call that in front of the meter, to help manage grid needs, while also looking for opportunities to partner with customers, you know, in the aggregate, so, you know, 100 or 1000 customers at once to say, "If we need to call on your devices to either inject into the grid or to ramp back your operations, that will help us manage grid needs while the customer still maintains control." Is that fair to say?

Guillaume Paradis 19:59 Yeah. Fair, and that's that's an emerging capacity we have. So if our ability to control and call upon a very large number of small devices and customer devices has grown and is growing and will be over the next few years, and with that, our capacity to then draw from those resources to respond to operational circumstances is also increasing and will give us options we just wouldn't have had in the past. So it's just a better way of utilizing available energy resources, a more refined way, and one that probably wasn't available to us at scale 10 years ago. Yeah.

Trevor Freeman 20:41 And the driver behind all this is what's the best, most cost-effective way to address that grid need? In some cases, it's going to be the poles and wires and transformers. In some cases, it's going to be these non-wire solutions, and it's it's part of the planning of the grid to identify where does each technology make sense?

Guillaume Paradis 21:02 Absolutely. So again, it's a more refined way of assessing options and ensuring that we identify the most cost-effective strategies possible.

Trevor Freeman 21:14 Perfect, great. Okay, so that's the growth and electrification section. Let's move to aging infrastructure, which is about a third of this investment plan. So this may seem like a softball to start with, but what are some of the challenges posed by aging infrastructure? Maybe talk to us a little bit about what that infrastructure is when it comes to utility grid, and then what are what are we doing with this investment plan to address that aging infrastructure?

Guillaume Paradis 21:43 Yeah, so aging infrastructure is a very clear and appropriate descriptor here. So we invest in assets that are long-lived. Think 50, 60 years plus in some instances. And you know, eventually you use them, you leverage them over many decades, and at some point, those assets deteriorate beyond a point where they're no longer able to provide the service that our customers expect. So that would be failures, which leads to reliability issues in parts of our system. So one at one point or another in the life cycle of those assets, depending on how they're being used, what environment they are operated in, you have to replace them. What we try to do is assess them on a risk basis. And when we say risk, we mean what impact can they have on our customers if they were to fail? Impacts can be things like safety risk. It could be, of course, reliability issues. It could limit our ability to service our customers. And so we assess risk on an ongoing basis, looking at those assets over decades, and eventually we get to a point where the risk has to be addressed, and that typically takes the form of or it can take the form of an outright replacement. Through the life cycle of all those assets, all of our assets, we do maintenance, we inspect them, we try to see if there are other things we can do before we replace them. But you get to a point ultimately, where the only option that's viable is to actually replace, and then you have to go in and take, you know, action physically in the field.Now, what becomes a little complicated is, as you can imagine, it's one thing to put infrastructure up when a field is being converted to a subdivision or the city's growing, and it's all brand new, you know, infrastructure being developed to support the growth, but decades later, when you come back, 60, 70 years plus, in some cases, you're in someone's backyard. You're in the middle of an intersection where multiple utilities have installed their own infrastructure, so you have to coordinate that things have been moved over time. So getting access to the infrastructure is more difficult, and so replacing many decades later is a lot more involved than putting up new infrastructure in the first place.And the type of infrastructure that we're talking about here probably falls into three major categories. So there's the overhead infrastructure you see around town. So really, when you—and you shouldn't do that while you're driving, but if you're walking ideally, and you're looking at the beautiful hydro infrastructure around Ottawa—what you'll see are very old poles that need attention. So that's very visible, right? We have wood poles, you know, in a lot of the areas of our city, and you get to a point where structurally, they're not as strong as they used to be. They've weathered many storms, and they need attention. And then otherwise, it's the transformers you might see on those poles, and that would be the boxes that are hanging from the poles. The ones that look like they, you know, predate the Cold War, are the ones we're going after, and we need to give some attention to today.And then on the underground side, similar infrastructure, it's it's cables in the ground. So in some instances, it's buried directly in someone's backyard. That was an approach people took many decades back. Now you can imagine it's very convenient when you're building it, but not so much when you're trying to get it out of the ground and put new cables into the ground. So there's cables that need replacing. They've been damaged or creating reliability issues. The transformers that go with that as well might need attention. And again, as I mentioned before, decades later, that transformer may be right behind someone's pool in their backyard, and they've done some real nice landscaping, and accessing it for a replacement is a lot more complicated. So underground infrastructure, in fact, is one of the more complicated replacements to execute.And then, you know, if you move up from there, you're looking at substation equipment. So that's the stuff that's fenced in across the city where power is being delivered from to our customers across the city. And so those assets may be a bit less complicated in terms of managing sites and access, but certainly complicated in terms of logistics costs of the equipment. Those are very, very large assets that require a lot of planning to replace because they're critical to our system, and we can't afford to have them be out of service too long.

Trevor Freeman 27:01 Got you and just for our listeners, while Guillaume was talking, I pulled up a few quick stats here. So we have Hydro Ottawa's service territory has over 6,000 kilometers of conductor, so of wires, and just under 50,000 poles out in our service territory. So as you can imagine, a lot of that is in great shape, and some of it isn't, and some of it needs to be addressed, just like, just like you're talking about here.

Guillaume Paradis 27:29 Yeah, and that's helpful. Trevor, the thing that we often forget, especially for electricity distribution, is the sheer number of assets that can create a risk. So it's one thing to manage one large transformer and make sure it doesn't fail, but when you're talking about thousands of assets dispersed around a very large service territory like Ottawa, making sure that we keep an eye on all of them at all times, making sure that we intervene at the exact time prior to a failure, to make sure we deliver the best service possible for our customers. That's really the essence of our challenge, and what makes distribution unique versus other parts of our business, where it's maybe more centralized and you may be looking at a smaller set of assets.

Trevor Freeman 28:16 Yeah, absolutely okay. So obviously it's important to maintain what we've got, in addition to building out that new stuff that we talked about earlier, maintaining and replacing what we have, so that, you know, our existing grid remains reliable. The next section of our investment plan is what we call grid modernization. Now that's something that we've talked about to varying levels of detail on this show before, but I'd like you to talk us through what is in this investment plan over the next five years, when we talk about grid modernization, what are we actually doing? What are some of the specific things that we're going to put some of our investment towards?

Guillaume Paradis 28:57 Yeah, so grid modernization is a category that gets talked about a lot, but maybe is, I would say, a bit misunderstood. I think, because it sounds futuristic, people assume we're doing very different things, and ultimately, in my mind, it's better leveraging technology to get good outcomes for our customers. It's really that simple. So as you can imagine, you know, as I talked about, we're looking at assets that have an expected life of 50, 60, 70 years. When some of our assets were first installed, things like communication technology, things like IT operational technology weren't as advanced as they are today. Our ability to collect data in real time was not what it is today, and so now that we have an opportunity to reinvest and replace the old assets. It's important that we do so in a manner that will allow us to drive or essentially more performance or better performance out of the assets we put in our system so that can take various forms, as I mentioned, getting better real-time information is one of those ways in which we can leverage technology. What that allows us to do is better respond to outages, offer a better service by being more aware of what's happening at any given point in time, getting better information in near real time as to what assets are posing a risk to reliability because they've been utilized heavily, or they've seen a lot of faults, for example, and so building in that technological infrastructure as a layer that enhances the traditional investments that we've always made is sort of the right thing to do in a context where you want to optimize where you spend your dollars, and you don't want to have to go back and reinvest on the same assets or in the same parts of our system multiple times over the coming years, in the coming decades. So the grid modernization portfolio essentially is our opportunity to very strategically identify where we can put in technology that will allow us to get more out of our assets and provide a better service for our customers.So simple things like automated devices, that would be automated switches that we install on our overhead infrastructure, underground infrastructure that gives us a capacity during an outage, to shift demand around and resupply our customers more rapidly than we would have been able to otherwise, and that gives us a capacity to provide a better service under contingency scenarios. So very simple, right? It's telemetry, it's communication to a device, and rather than have someone physically go in the field and, you know, switch customers and try to move demand around, we can do that remotely from our control center. Likewise, in the control center, putting in more telemetry to identify and proactively suggest to our operators how to restore power to customers. Again, is a simple thing by today's standards, right? It's not complicated technology, it's not complicated software, but it's a layer that didn't exist previously, where we can have software, model-based tools suggest how best to optimize the restoration of power, and as we do that, our trained operators get to review and take action in an informed manner. So grid modernization, again, is about making the most of today's available technology, while we reinvest in our distribution system to make sure that the quality of our service and the breadth of the services we can provide align well going forward, with our customers' aspirations and provide a quality service for many decades to come.

Trevor Freeman 33:26 Yeah, and I think it's important to remember. And you know this, this little saying has has been out there in the industry, and I've used it before, of the electricity grid is the world's largest machine. Like the grid itself is a piece of technology, and like any technology, we would not be happy if it stayed stagnant. Like we want it to evolve with with the latest and greatest and operate better and more efficiently. And the grid is no different, and so part of grid modernization is just keeping up with what's out there to make sure we are delivering the service that we deliver in the best way, in the most advanced way, in the most efficient way possible. With that, Guillaume, what about things like, you know, we hear a lot about more distributed energy resources, so more small-scale generation or storage out there on the grid that might be owned by the utility, but it might not be, it might be customer owned. What? What are we doing from a grid modernization perspective, to enable more distributed energy resources to utilize those assets more on our grid?

Guillaume Paradis 34:42 Yeah, so that's core to the evolution and we're proposing and working toward. And and really, if you boil it down to, you know, a simple kind of concept, it's really that traditionally, we've had a static model of how our grid needs to operate, and we planned accordingly. So you know, power flows in one direction to certain size customers. They use electricity, they use our energy, and then we protect, we coordinate, we control accordingly, and we're moving into an environment where customer behavior evolves in a dynamic fashion in near real time, depending on what prices are available in the electricity market, depending on what aspirations various customers have, depending on what technology they want to deploy to manage their energy footprint. A customer may look different, really, from one day to the next, as far as the electricity system is concerned, because their demand might be less significant on a day where their solar panels are better able to generate energy, on a day where they choose to leverage a large battery system that they've installed at their facilities to manage their demand. And so from an electricity system standpoint, we need a much better awareness of what is happening in near real time to be able to control and then respond and ultimately offer the right service for our customers. So that's a big change, again, going back to the how we're going to enable that, it's again, the core elements of communication infrastructure, more telemetry, so that we can see what's happening in real time. Think sensors, think smart meters. Think, you know, a software system within our control room to take all that information in in real time and make sense of it, and then ultimately drive our decision making and support our customers in leveraging energy resources in an optimal way for their needs, by making sure that we're aware of what's happening and not create barriers that are artificial because we're not sure, and when we're not sure, safety is paramount, and when you prioritize safety and you don't have information, you have to be very conservative in the decisions you make, and you may limit customers' choices and behavioral, you know, choices by having to have that safety margin and that safety conscience kind of override everything else. So better telemetry, better real-time information, more dynamic ways of controlling energy allows us to enable customers and and support their aspirations.

Trevor Freeman 37:50 I mean, it really comes kind of full circle back to our job is to let our customers do what they want to do when it comes to energy, enable that, and that may be just making sure the power is there and available, but it also may be making sure that our grid is set up to allow them to generate and store and sort of interact with energy in the way that they want to. So those two things are quite parallel. Okay, great. Last category here is grid resilience, and this is an important one, and especially in the eyes of our customers, because, you know, we're that unique industry where most of the time people don't think of us when they really do think about us, it's because the lights have gone off, because there's some event that has resulted in an outage, and I just want to ensure our customers, we try very, very hard to make sure that doesn't happen as much as we can't control everything. So we have this category of grid resilience in our investment plan, and we know that we're going to be seeing, and we have already started to see, more frequent extreme weather events. That is increasing. It's not going down. So what are we doing in our investment plan? Or what are we planning to do in order to enhance grid resiliency and withstand those extreme weather events?

Guillaume Paradis 39:14 Yeah, so the need for resilience, in my mind, comes from a couple places. So, you know, there are drivers that are external; so the operating environment is evolving. To your point, we've seen a number of very impactful weather events over the last few years, whether it be historically impactful ice storms, we've seen tornadoes in our service territory in a way that we didn't previously. We saw derecho a couple years ago, which was by some measure the most impactful storm in the history of our company. And so we know. How what we plan to withstand has evolved, and we need to reflect that in the decisions we make when we invest in our infrastructure. That can take a few forms. But for grid resilience, we're targeting specific investments so we can identify and have identified areas of our system that are more vulnerable. Imagine overhead infrastructure that is more exposed to stronger winds, and so we can go in there and then target those areas, target those segments of our system and make them more robust, more resistant to those external factors. And so we have assessed our entire service territory, we've studied, you know, our vulnerability to changing patterns, to changing weather events, and in a very targeted manner, identified areas where we'll take action over the next five years to boost resilience of our electricity system in those scenarios, and really just generally.The other element is, while those external factors are evolving and creating a stress on our system, we're also seeing people's dependence on electricity's availability continue to grow, right? So, you know, we've been through this many times at this point, and I'm sure it's been covered on on this podcast a number of times. But, you know, people's, you know, need for highly and readily available electricity continues to go up. Think, you know, remote work. Think our utilization of, you know, the internet and the technologies that support that. People need access to power, you know, on an ongoing basis for a variety of reasons that support their lifestyles. And so while the external factors have become and are becoming more challenging and creating a stress, we're also seeing customers relying more heavily on our service being available. And so those things combined make it sort of an imperative that we take action and ensure that our system is robust and can withstand those conditions that are upon us.So we change our planning approach. We evolve our choices with respect to investments. It could be simpler things than, you know, targeting areas and replacing specific infrastructure. It could be as simple as changing our standards so that when we install a new pole, we know that it can withstand harsher winds and heavier ice loading parameters, and we do that across all our investments. So that's a key point here, with respect to grid resilience. Yes, we have a targeted, sort of very strategic approach to building resilience, but we also do that across all our investment categories, when we put money in our distribution system to make sure that, similar to the point we made about technology. You know, we invest in assets that will, you know, outlive many of us, and they need to be adequate and appropriate for the environment in which they will operate long-term. So we change, you know, the choices we make, we change the materials we use to build the infrastructure that we put in our system, so that ultimately, the service levels and service quality that our customers get to enjoy, you know, meets their expectations for decades to come.

Trevor Freeman 43:59 I think the idea like it's good that we have called out specifically some activities targeted at group resilience, but some of the other stuff that we've already talked about also support resilience. And you mentioned in the grid modernization part, you know, part of that is restoring power to most customers quicker. In our growth and electrification part, I mean, making sure that our grid can handle the new loads also lends itself to resiliency. So all of this is in service of making sure that power is there for our customers when they need it, how they need it, and done in a sort of safe and affordable way. That's the goal of of all these categories together.

Guillaume Paradis 44:46 Absolutely. The, you know, going back to the earlier point, the categories are helpful in identifying the major drivers. But ultimately, to your point, Trevor, they all support each other, and when our team plans, depends the future of electricity system. They do so in an integrated manner that considers the various benefits that we can achieve by taking action and putting more money in our distribution system.

Trevor Freeman 45:13 Yeah, great. So that that's a nice segue into this next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this and this is why it is an investment plan. We're out there outlining these are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that, and so if we don't do this, if we said, "Look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas," what are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like quality of service, reliability, safety, et cetera, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now.

Guillaume Paradis 45:54 Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? We what we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 2026 to 2030, is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years. What would be an appropriate rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues? We've looked at making sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years. And then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers? Because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers' lives, yes, in a positive manner when our service is reliable and power is available, but also financially from a cost standpoint. We add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives, and so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs, the level of investments, in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in our or in setting the plans for the future.So doing so, looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans, if we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on, we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers, and we took a very deliberate, you know, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments, down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place.So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing, you know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it ranges from, you know, difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner, so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community, so fairly direct, and frankly, it's our obligation to connect, so we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult, take more time on the reliability front. Again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80-year-old wood pole doesn't get any younger and doesn't get any stronger if you wait five, six more years. And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those types of assets. And, you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those poles that are deteriorated are more likely to fail. Even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for our customers, with respect to other outcomes like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources. That might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we don't have good real-time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest. So old assets, you know, are inherently more likely to create failure risks, and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint, so we would have to, and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be, and are always very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems, but reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences, and of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that we continue to deliver the best service we can, but that would become more difficult than it is today.

Trevor Freeman 52:27 I appreciate that that context of, you know, you like me, like energy, and we want to do all the cool things, and we want to have the system that is is absolutely able to handle every eventuality. But we have to balance that with what is the right level of investment, what is the right pace to go at? And I think, you know, having seen the process, there's been a lot of work over the last year plus to find that balance. And I think we've, we've hit that balance in terms of being able to move the ball forward while trying to maintain that sort of affordability aspect for customers. Last question here, Guillaume, to kind of wrap it all up, and we've touched on this a few times in some of the other questions. But how does our investment plan align with that broader energy transition that that we talk about, you know, decarbonizing, reducing emissions, increasing sort of customer flexibility when it comes to their own generation and storage. And what role do you see Hydro Ottawa playing moving forward in that? And I know that this has already gotten a little bit of attention, but I'll give you a chance just to kind of tie a nice little bow around it at the end.

Guillaume Paradis 53:51 So to your point, we did cover a few elements, how we enable those, you know, sustainability aspirations. But you know, it ranges from making it possible for large customers to shift a significant portion of their energy demand to a lower carbon source like electricity. So again, think a customer who would use natural gas for their facilities, and, you know, for corporate reasons, decides to use electricity instead. Us connecting that extra demand and delivering power to them allows them to lower their carbon footprint. So that would be on the high end in terms of size and impact, all the way to enabling customers to install different technologies on their homes, within their homes, to reduce their carbon footprint and change how they use energy. So it could be as simple as buying an EV and making sure that power is available within that neighborhood to supply demand from that EV. It could be them installing solar panels on their roof and trying to export power back to us. And so that would tie to the earlier point around visibility and real-time awareness that we need to have to make sure that we can make that possible. So again, you know the energy system. The electricity system is integrated in so many ways and enabling our customers to achieve their sustainability outcomes, their desired outcomes in terms of energy use, comes from planning the energy system, the electricity distribution system, in a manner that supports that and that permits it. So again, going back to some categories, the grid modernization that we spoke about earlier, fits right in there. So being aware allows us to allow and enable customers, and that becomes critical again, in an environment where things are very dynamic, and we want to support that dynamism, and we need to do so in a manner that's safe. So we need information, and we need technology that allows us to go get that information to support the decision making. So as we said, all the investments we're proposing in one way or another will support our supporting those decarbonization and emission reduction objectives that we all have.

Trevor Freeman 56:38 Right? Yeah, it really comes back to the idea of us being—and this is something that I certainly talk to our customers about—a lot of us being partners with our customers when it comes to their energy journeys. And that can be very active partners in the sense of the word, where we are involved in helping make decisions together on technology or strategies, or it can be very passive, and that kind of residential model that you talked about of just making sure the grid can be there in the way that the customer wants it to be there. And that's still a partnership that that we need to lean into, and that we are kind of through this investment.

Guillaume Paradis 57:18 Plan, we're essentially underpinning people's aspirations when it comes to energy, and so we're there to make it possible for them to do what they're hoping to do. And you're absolutely right. We're seeing both ends of those conversations where some go about their own choices and really don't need us involved, and our responsibility there is to make sure that we don't create a roadblock by not being prepared and not being equipped to respond to, you know, how they want to change their behavior, all the way to that partnership, where it's a very involved conversation. You know, we're being brought in to fully explore all the options and work with stakeholders in essentially demystifying, or maybe more specifically, sort of seeing through some of the complexity that exists today in an environment that is much more dynamic again and offers a lot more options than people would have seen a few decades ago.

Trevor Freeman 58:23 Fantastic. Well, Guillaume, I think we'll leave it there. This has been great, and I appreciate you taking the time to help pick apart, you know what? What can be a pretty complex, lengthy plan, but really boils down to building out the grid, continuing to do the great work that that the folks at Hydro Ottawa do, while also preparing for the future. So I appreciate your insight into this. As our listeners know, we always end these interviews with a series of questions, and you're no different. So I'm going to dive, dive right into that. So Guillaume, what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

Guillaume Paradis 59:06 Yeah, so I'm probably going to get his name wrong, or at least the pronunciation, but it's a book called How the World Really Works, by Vaclav Smil. Essentially, you know, he's a very pragmatic thinker with respect to how systems work, how our world is integrated from a supply standpoint, from a geopolitical standpoint, and how that leads to outcomes in the real world. And think things like energy, think, things like food supply. And what I like with his approach is that he breaks things down, sort of from a first-principle standpoint, to try to help explain why certain things may or may not be possible, and in an environment where—and maybe that's my perspective—but I think today there's a lot of big-picture, you know, broad opinions being shared by people who may or may not always be very knowledgeable or have the expertise in certain fields. It's nice to see someone kind of break things down to then try to support, or in some cases dispel certain misconceptions. So really nice approach. He has a number of books that are similar in nature, some cases a bit dense to read through, frankly, but I would say the How the World Really Works book is easier to digest, and it's it's a good entry into kind of his works and and his approach to his studies. The other thing that's a plus, maybe, is that he's based out of Winnipeg and Canadian. So it's great to have a mind like his, you know, contributing to the discourse in Canada.

Trevor Freeman 1:01:11 Awesome. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show that you think everyone should check out?

Guillaume Paradis 1:01:17 Yeah, that's a little harder. I think maybe I'll go to an old classic. For me, I I'm always impressed with extreme creativity. I'll call it in in whatever forms that I think it's neat to see how people can envision a world or create a world. And so an example for me was The Grand Budapest Hotel movie by Wes Anderson. So, you know, I think people are familiar with his work by now. I just like the combination of humor, color, like the creation of a world that doesn't quite exist but resembles one we might know. And just, you know, it's a way of expressing oneself that is so interesting, so different. He does it really, really well. And, you, know, I find it sort of like awe-inspiring to go back to those kind of movies and look at, certainly, there's all sorts of good content these days that's being produced. But I think this one is kind of withstood the test of time so far and and kind of brings you to a different place. So I'll point to that.

Trevor Freeman 1:02:30 Yeah, it's one of those where it's not just about the story. The whole watching that movie is a bit of an experience. And all the ways that you just said, you know, there's like an artificial aspect to it. There's that sort of mental, emotional side of it, and then there's the story itself, with the humor and everything. So, yeah, that's a great one. I really like that.

Guillaume Paradis 1:02:47 Always fascinating to think someone was able to come up with that, right? Like that. Yeah, totally level. Like the attention to details, the way in which the storylines are integrated, the way in which the decors, the images are graphic. It's just remarkable. And, and I think in anything it's really cool to see people who are sort of masters at their art, right? And whatever form, and there's all sorts of other examples, but that one, you know, came to mind. Yeah, very cool.

Trevor Freeman 1:03:21 If you had a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Guillaume Paradis 1:03:25 I think for me, it'd be somewhere very far north. I think it's on the list somewhere for the next few years. But just getting access to lands, scenery that you wouldn't otherwise is a really cool concept, maybe even spaces that are a bit less impacted by human, you know, behavior and presence. So I just think a flight to somewhere random that maybe doesn't even have a name, but is in between two small villages that can only be accessed by a plane. I think that would be cool.

Trevor Freeman 1:04:10 Yeah, that does sound very cool. I like that. Who is someone that you admire?

Guillaume Paradis 1:04:15 Yeah, so my wife, for sure. I think that's sort of the foundation of a healthy relationship, you should have some admiration for your partner, and I absolutely do. More generally, I would just point to anyone in our lives, and I think we all know people like that who spend a large amount of their time making other people's lives better. I could pick, you know, a celebrity of some kind, or politician of some kind, or even a historical figure, but, you know, I think in general, it doesn't have to be that complicated. People who just invest a lot of their time, you know, making sure others' lives are better. I think that's that's something we should all admire, aspire to, you know, emulate, if we can, and just recognize as well. Because a lot of the times people do that, the people who do it well, don't do it for recognition. It doesn't mean they don't deserve it. And I think we should kind of try to promote it, you know, recognize it in our lives, and encourage it and emulate it, if we can.

Trevor Freeman 1:05:30 Fantastic. Well said, last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you are particularly excited about?

Guillaume Paradis 1:05:37 Yeah, so I've been in the sector for about 20 years now, in fact, longer than that. My father worked for Hydro Quebec for many decades. So think we spent a lot of time talking about the future and getting excited about a future that was to come, and just the fact that we're living it now, that we're actually shaping it, is pretty exciting, maybe even not appreciated to its full extent. And I think having a chance to contribute now is really awesome, and to whatever extent we can as well. I'm trying to encourage as many people as possible to join our sector, bring various backgrounds, you know, expertise, knowledge to helping us make decisions about how energy is going to be used in our society going forward, and how we can make the most, you know, this confluence of factors that, you know, create the window of opportunity to to change things and make them evolve. And so for those of us who are part of it, let's not take it for granted, and let's make sure that we contribute to the full extent of our capabilities.

Trevor Freeman 1:06:58 Awesome, great, great way to wrap this up. I agree completely. Guillaume, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And sharing your thoughts with us. Really appreciate you coming on the show.

Guillaume Paradis 1:07:07 Thanks, Trevor. Pleasure.

Trevor Freeman 1:07:10 Great, take care. Well, there you have it, everybody. That was our last episode of the season before our summer break. Our regular listeners will know that we typically take a break over the summer to regroup and work on content and plan out the next year. But don't worry, we will be still releasing episodes every two weeks. They will just be rewind episodes, and we'll take a look back at some of our favorite episodes or things that we feel are particularly relevant for what's going on right now. So keep tuning in and listen to those, and we will be back with brand new content in September. Take care and have a safe summer. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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We've all been there, trying to decode a document filled with acronyms and numbers. In this episode of thinkenergy, host Trevor Freeman pulls back the curtain on the typical Ontario electricity bill. Learn about what makes up your monthly bill and exactly where your money goes. From generation mix to infrastructure and provincial differences, tune in as Trevor sheds light on the diverse factors that influence electricity prices across Canada.

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman:

Welcome to a ThinkEnergy Short, hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite-sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening.

Hi everyone, and welcome back to another ThinkEnergy Short. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman. Today, I want to pull apart something pretty fundamental to your relationship with your utility, and something that might seem kind of basic on the surface, but there's actually a lot to it. I'm talking about your bill and how you are billed for electricity in this province, in the province of Ontario. A lot of folks may not pay much attention to their bill, other than the total at the bottom, or maybe you also look at the total consumption number. But there are actually several different components to your bill, and understanding them will help you understand a little bit more about the electricity sector and how it works and how it's funded. And we'll also take a minute to look at electricity costs in Ontario compared to other provinces, and why there's a difference.

Now, there's a lot to go through here. I'm going to do my best to get through it quickly while still explaining everything. But this may be more of a "ThinkEnergy Medium" instead of a "Short." There's just a lot of content to get through. So, let's dive right in. Obviously, we're coming to you from Ottawa here, so we're going to be speaking in the context of Hydro Ottawa. But really, what we're talking about is pretty consistent across the province of Ontario. Your bill in Ontario is generally divided into a couple of different sections: your electricity charges, which could include things like Global Adjustment; delivery charges; regulatory charges; and then you'll see HST, some credits or rebates potentially, and maybe a few other sections, depending on what type of customer you are. So, let's take it from the top.

First off, your electricity charge. This is the cost of the actual power you consume. You will see this expressed as cents per kilowatt-hour. This is the commodity cost of the electricity, of those electrons that you're using in your home or your business to do the things you need to do. In Ontario, most residential customers and a lot of small commercial customers as well are on the Regulated Price Plan, or RPP. The Ontario Energy Board, which is Ontario's independent energy regulator—it's the regulatory body in the province—sets the RPP price for the province based on its forecast of the cost to supply households and small businesses over the next 12 months. So, that's stable, predictable electricity pricing for Ontarians, and new rates generally take effect on November 1 of every year. So you have those rates for typically 12 months, and they change each year on November 1.

There are a couple of different options for how you're billed for electricity under the RPP, which you might be familiar with. There's time-of-use pricing, which has a different rate depending on the time of day or the day of the week. So you've got on-peak, mid-peak, or off-peak, and those are aligned to encourage customers to use electricity outside of the peak demand times in the province when everybody is trying to use electricity for things at home or for work, and there's the most stress on the grid. The exact times of those periods do change between summer and winter. The next option is tiered pricing, and so this is a fixed price per kilowatt-hour up to a certain threshold each month. So you can use a certain amount of electricity at one price. If you go past that threshold, the price goes up. And that's kind of a plan for those who like a consistent amount; they don't want to have to worry about what time of day it is, or maybe the way they've structured their lives or their businesses is such that they have to use electricity during peak times, so that may make sense for them.

The other option is Ultra-Low Overnight, or ULO, pricing. This is really a rate that's focused on primarily electric vehicle owners because it has a very, very low overnight rate. And the idea is that you would charge your electric vehicle—it's a big load in your house or in your business—and you would move that load to be overnight. You would charge it overnight and avoid doing that during the day, because in order to make up for that ultra-low overnight rate, there's a much higher on-peak rate kind of in the late afternoon and evening. So you'd really want to avoid using electricity as much as possible. The overall goal of all these programs, as I said, is to really reduce strain on the grid during those peak times, and that will in turn reduce greenhouse gas emissions because our fossil fuel generation in Ontario—that's natural gas generation—is primarily used during peak times. So we call them our peaker plants, and those are turned on when we need to make up that sort of highest demand load that occurs just a few times during each day and indeed during the year.

The reason that we're able to do these different rates is that over a decade ago, Ontario adopted the use of smart meters for electricity, which accurately measures and tracks electricity usage down to at least the hour, sometimes even more granular than that, and that allows for utilities to really tailor pricing plans around timed consumption. It's worth noting here that if you have signed a contract with an electricity retailer, your electricity charge will be based on the price you agreed to in that contract. So there are retailers out there who will come to you and say, "Hey, we can guarantee you this price of electricity, and it's not going to change for the life of the contract, or whatever their terms may be." And maybe that's a better deal for you, or maybe that makes more sense for your situation. So you can sign on to that. You will be charged at that contracted rate rather than the Regulated Price Plan, and you won't be subject to the changes of that Regulated Price Plan; you'll be with your retailer. That said, you will still see other charges like delivery charges and regulatory charges, which we will get to in a minute.

Before we go there, I do want to quickly talk about commercial customers, because that is a slightly different structure to the electricity charge section. So in that electricity charge section, there is a line item that is the market cost of electricity, and that does change month-to-month. And in fact, it also changes from customer to customer. Basically, there's a price every hour, and that customer's usage over that month results in a prorated price. And so on their bill, they will see the price that they're paying, the market cost of electricity that they've used in that month. There is also a line item for Global Adjustment, which is a very unique Ontario charge. To my knowledge, it only exists in Ontario. So let's take a minute to talk about what Global Adjustment is. There is a certain cost to running the electricity grid in Ontario, and that cost factors in maintenance and planning and conservation programs, as well as long-term fixed contracts. So the system operator signs contracts with generators to supply electricity at a certain rate. The market price of electricity isn't always enough to make up that full cost. So what we pay, the market rate, isn't enough; sometimes Global Adjustment is what makes up the difference. Now, every electricity customer in Ontario pays Global Adjustment, whether you see it on your bill or not. For residential and small commercial customers that are on the RPP, Global Adjustment is built into their rates that I just described above. But for commercial customers, you actually see that as a separate line item. And for most commercial customers, that is a rate that's tied to your consumption. So the more you use, the more Global Adjustment you pay. There is an option for the largest consumers to change that equation about how you're paid or how you're charged Global Adjustment, but we're not going to get into that in this episode.

So that is the electricity portion of your bill. Another quick note here: all the money that you pay for this portion of the bill goes upstream, basically to the generators and the system operators and other players in the system. Your distributor, who actually gives you the bill—so Hydro Ottawa, in my case—doesn't actually keep any of this, nor do they set those rates. That is all upstream of us. That is not the distribution company's territory. We just are the ones that provide the bill and collect what you pay.

Next section is delivery charges. So delivery charges cover the cost of getting electricity from the generating stations all the way to your home or business. It's essentially the cost of building, maintaining, and operating the vast network of transmission lines and towers, distribution systems like their lines and poles and substations and transformers, and all the equipment that's necessary to get electricity to you, to your home or to your business, and also to repair outages. So if there's a storm and lines are down, it's the delivery charges that fund the exercise of going out there and repairing that. So if you think of electricity as the product, the delivery charge is the logistics behind that. So it's like the warehouses and the trucks and the route to get that package to your doorstep. The same thing happens with the electricity system. Some of that delivery charge is fixed, and it doesn't change month to month, no matter what consumption you have, so how much you're using. That's why sometimes you'll hear people say, "Oh, you know, my electricity consumption was super low, but my delivery charge didn't change. That's not fair." And the reality is that we still need to maintain that grid. Even if you have a month where you're not using a lot of electricity, you still want those poles and wires and transformers to be there and to be working and ready for you when you are going to use a lot of electricity.

There's also a customer service charge within that delivery charge, so that kind of covers the meter reading, the billing, the customer service; maintaining that infrastructure is included in there. There's a distribution charge, and that's kind of the main portion that Hydro Ottawa keeps, as well as that customer service charge, and that is for us to maintain the distribution system. And then there's a transmission charge that is to do the same thing, except for the high-voltage transmission system that brings electricity across the province. There is also a line loss adjustment. Now, it's normal for a small amount of electricity to be lost as heat when it travels over power lines. That's just the reality of moving electricity over long distances, and you will see a small adjustment on your bill to account for these line losses, to make sure that all the electricity being generated is actually being paid for. And your local distribution utility, again, Hydro Ottawa, in my case, collects this money and keeps the portion that's meant for the distribution company and pays the rest to all the various other stakeholders in the system that make up the electricity sector. It's important to know that these delivery rates are reviewed and approved by the Ontario Energy Board based on the specific needs and the priorities of each utility. So this is the nature of us being a regulated industry. Our regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, has to approve the rates that we charge. We have to show to the Ontario Energy Board, "Here is what all of our costs are to maintain the system. Here is what we want to do to grow and expand in order to meet our customer needs. Here are all the programs that we're running, and therefore, here are the rates that we need to charge." And the Ontario Energy Board will actually make a ruling on that to say, "Yes, those are fair rates," or "No, we think you're charging too much," or "Hey, we actually think you're charging too little." The Ontario Energy Board also wants to make sure that utilities are being responsible and maintaining the grid so that it is safe and reliable and affordable for their customers.

The next section is regulatory charges. And so that is very simply the cost of having a regulated system of the Ontario Energy Board and having a regulator to oversee and administer the provincial electricity system and ensure that it remains affordable and reliable for everybody. So there is a cost, and that is on everyone's electricity bills. So those are the main sections, but there may be other potential charges and rebates on your bill that you'll see. And so these include things like HST. So electricity is subject to HST in Ontario, so you'll see that tax line. Most customers that are on the RPP, the Regulated Price Plan, are eligible for the Ontario Electricity Rebate, and this is a rebate from the provincial government of Ontario to help reduce electricity costs, primarily targeted at residential, farm, and small business customers. And you will see this on your bill as a pre-tax credit.

One last section that you might see if you're a net-metered customer, and a net-metered customer is someone who generates electricity on their home or business and uses some of that electricity, but may also push some back to the grid. So if you're one of those customers, you will sometimes see net-metered generation credits, and so this is a credit that you get that can be used to offset the electricity portion of your bill based on how much you generate and push back to the grid.

So to wrap this all up, let's take a quick look at why electricity prices are different in different areas of Canada. What's the difference? Why are we not charged all the same? As we've said before, energy is a provincial jurisdiction, so there are provincial grids, and they're usually operated at the provincial level. And, you know, some of the pricing and the structure is set at that provincial level. Different provinces have different generation mixes, and so in some of the sort of cheaper provinces to run, one of the things they have is a lot of hydroelectricity. So these are dams that use the movement of water to generate electricity. Quebec has a lot of hydroelectricity. Manitoba and BC both have a lot of hydroelectricity. And the reason that this results in lower electricity prices is that while there's a high upfront cost to build a dam, to build a generating station based on, you know, falling water, the operating cost is actually extremely low compared to other options. There's not a lot of input, you know, the water is going to do its thing, and once you've got that turbine there and the right infrastructure, it's going to generate electricity. And so there are costs, but not as much as, for example, a nuclear plant or a gas or a coal plant that require a lot of input in the form of fuel to make that plant run. So when you look at where some of the cheapest jurisdictions are and most expensive jurisdictions, there's actually a report from Hydro Quebec that looks at Canadian municipalities, Canadian cities that have the highest and lowest electricity costs. And the four cheapest cities are Montreal, Quebec; Winnipeg, Manitoba; Vancouver, BC; and Ottawa, Ontario. The four most expensive cities, and these are 2023-2024 numbers, I believe, the most expensive cities are Edmonton, Alberta; Calgary, Alberta; Halifax, Nova Scotia; and Charlottetown, PEI.

There are other reasons why different jurisdictions will have different prices. You know, there are different sort of regulatory charges and costs and environments. There's infrastructure and maintenance costs. So an older, more aging grid that has to be renewed and upgraded is going to cost more than something that's gone through that already. If you look at density, also, if you have a very dense population where everyone lives kind of close to each other, it's a lot easier to get electricity to those folks compared to a much more sparsely populated, spread-out area where there are lots of long runs to get electricity to different municipalities and towns and villages. So lots of variables go into the cost of electricity, and it definitely differs from province to province.

So that's the bulk of what we wanted to talk about today. I know it's a lot, but it is really important to understand why you're paying what you're paying for electricity, and what your money is going to do, especially at a time when we are looking to grow and expand our grid, to modernize our grid, to invest in making sure that the electricity grid can support us decarbonizing our lives, electrifying our lives, and adding more distributed energy resources like solar and storage and things like that.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of ThinkEnergy Shorts, or ThinkEnergy Medium. I hope this breakdown gives you some of that information, and I always appreciate you joining us. I'm Trevor Freeman, and this has been another episode of ThinkEnergy. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the ThinkEnergy Podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

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What does Ontario’s new 12-year Save on Energy framework mean for homeowners, businesses, and the future of energy in Canada? Learn how the program supports smarter grid planning and energy use, lowers emissions, improves affordability, and helps Ontarians make the switch to cleaner technologies. Tam Wagner from the Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO) joins thinkenergy to explain why conservation is a critical tool in Canada’s transition to clean energy. Listen to episode 158 today.

Related links

● Tam Wagner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tam-wagner-p-eng-268828b1/

● Save on Energy framework and programs: https://saveonenergy.ca/

● Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO) : https://www.ieso.ca/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com. Hi everyone. Welcome back. Energy is finite. Now don't worry. You didn't stumble into a podcast about theoretical physics. And while yes, that concept, that statement, could launch us into a discussion about the ever-expanding universe, about how we're all made up of the remnants of exploding stars, or how ultimately, all of our collective species’ history, including the history of the planet, is but the tiniest fraction of a fraction of a blink of an eye in the grand scale of the cosmos. That's not what we're talking about today. But if you want to talk about that, give me a shout. I'd love to. know today we're talking about much more zoomed in practical look at what that statement means. So, the amount of electricity available to us as consumers who need that electricity to charge our devices, to operate our homes and our businesses, and increasingly, to heat our spaces and to power our vehicles, is limited. In the past, that electricity has been limited by the inputs by the fossil fuels that we need to burn in order to generate that electricity. But increasingly, as we transition to more and more renewable sources who you know, seemingly are infinite, you know, there's a whole lot of sunlight out there. Our limits are more economical and practical. We are expanding the grid. We're adding capacity, adding more generation, transmission, distribution, but those things also come with a cost, so we can't just do it in perpetuity, and we can't do it at the speed maybe necessary for some of the new uses that we're looking for. In light of all that, it does make sense for us to ensure that we are being as efficient as possible with the energy that we do need to use. Enter conservation or demand side management, the intentional effort to reduce wasted energy and to maximize efficiency, while also managing when we use energy so as to spread out the load, to minimize large peaks of demand, which are harder to manage than a more even demand profile. In Ontario, our system operator, the Independent Electricity System Operator, or IESO. Sometimes I'll refer to that as ISO has managed provincial conservation programs for the last two decades. Conservation is and has been a foundational element in grid planning and in our supply mix. That has been the case for a number of years now, and will continue to be the case. Recently, in January of this year, January 2025 the ISO unveiled its ambitious new save on energy framework, a comprehensive 12-year plan designed to empower both residential and commercial customers in Ontario to take control of their energy consumption. This initiative arrives at a really critical juncture, recognizing the pivotal role of energy efficiency and maintaining a reliable and affordable electricity system, something we talk about all the time on the show, amidst a projected surge in demand driven by economic growth and the energy transition towards electrification, something else we talk about all the time on the show. I hope by now you're seeing that all these things come together, and the topics that we talk about are usually related to each other. Backed by significant provincial investment and a strong commitment to collaborate across the sector. And this includes ongoing collaboration with Enbridge and a new role for the local distribution companies like Hydro Ottawa, this new framework really introduces a suite of new and expanded programs aimed at creating this culture of conservation and facilitating the adoption of cleaner energy technologies. It's really meant to complement the energy transition and make sure we do it in a way that is as efficient and affordable as possible. The ISOs new save on energy framework in Ontario holds significant implications for Canada's broader energy future, aligning with a number of key national trends and objectives. So just because this is an Ontario framework, there's a lot of good information here that applies across Canada's energy sector, and indeed, even beyond Canada's borders. Things like supporting our climate goals and emission reduction targets by encouraging a shift away from fossil fuels for heating and transportation, by making it easier to switch to electric options for those two things, things like recognizing energy efficiency as one of the lowest cost resources to address system needs, and in fact, we'll talk about that in our conversation with our guests here in a few moments. Addressing the need for electricity demand. As Canada pursues electrification across various sectors, so in Ontario, our system operator is forecasting a 75% increase in our demand by 2050 you're seeing similar projected increases across the country and indeed around the world, as economies and energy sectors that have been very reliant on fossil fuels look to switch to more electric options, while at the same time managing those other growth items that we've talked about in the past. Ai data centers being one of the big ones. This framework also looks to promote grid modernization and integration of more renewable energy sources across the grids, so in essence, a greater interprovincial electricity system. And finally, looking to foster economic opportunities by stimulating the clean tech sector driving more demand for those energy efficient technologies and services. So, to help us better understand this new program and the role of conservation in Ontario's grid management, I decided to go right to the source, and I'm joined today by Tam Wagner. Tam is the director of demand side management at the ieso and provides thought leadership for the design and delivery of energy efficiency and demand side management programs. Tam has been with the ISO since 2005 in a number of different roles, and so she is well placed to help us dive into all the details about this new conservation framework. And I'm really excited to talk to her today. As I mentioned a couple times in our chat, I come from a conservation background. That's kind of how I got my start in the utility and so it's great to see how it's evolved over the years. And I'm really excited to dive into this with Tam. Tam Wagner, welcome to the show.

Tam Wagner 06:54

Thanks for having me, Trevor.

Trevor Freeman 06:55

okay, so let's dive right in with a little bit of the basics here. Why is energy efficiency a priority for the province? Why are we even talking about energy efficiency?

Tam Wagner 07:05

So, to get into that, I'm going to take a step back first and talk about what electricity demand is doing in the province of Ontario. So, what we're seeing is it's growing according to the ISO latest demand forecast, the provincial electricity demand is anticipated to grow 75% by 2050 and that just further reinforces the need for us to really invest in everything in order to meet those growing electricity demands, including energy efficiency and demand side resources. At the ISO, we've been delivering energy efficiency and demand side management programs for businesses and residences in Ontario for nearly 20 years, and we've done this through different frameworks and business models. And more specifically, since 2011 we've been delivering our programs through our save on energy grant. With that is, is what we've seen is energy efficiency at three cents per kilowatt hour. It's one of our lowest cost resources to meet what Ontario's energy needs, what we've been able to achieve, and it's really building on this success is, since 2006 Ontario has saved 18.5 terawatt hours of electricity as a result of our programs. So, to put that into context, that's the equivalent of powering 2 million homes for one year. And so, with that is when we think about energy efficiency, it's really a key tool in our toolbox to meet some of the reliability needs, yes, in the past, but also those growing needs going forward.

Trevor Freeman 08:27

And what about the so we talk a lot in the show, obviously, about the energy transition in context of climate change and trying to reduce our emissions. How does energy conservation fit into that? What are some of the environmental benefits of focusing on energy efficiency?

Tam Wagner 08:44

When we think about when Ontarians use electricity the most, and usually it's in the summer period with air conditioning load on, in order to meet those electricity peaks, what we run is is a variety of generators within the province, so nuclear, hydroelectric, but also included in that is our natural gas generators. And oftentimes those natural gas generators are on for those peak periods, like I mentioned, in those summer peak periods. So, by leading into energy efficiency and actually reducing what our summer peaks are, we're relying less on those gas generators, and hopefully being able to run them less as well, because we are flattening what that load is, if we're running those gas generators less, we're able to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that come from those resources.

Trevor Freeman 09:28

Yeah, and just for our listeners, kind of drawing on my background of previously working in energy conservation, all the things that really drive toward wanting to reduce electricity consumption, sort of the highest cost times the highest emission times. They all kind of coincide. So, when you're focusing on that energy efficiency, focusing on reducing your consumption or your demand, it has that added benefit of reducing your cost and reducing your emissions, and all of the above. So really, a lot of things coming together to make. Energy Efficiency makes sense for the customer as well as the utilities and the system operator, of course. Okay, so Tam, you said a couple of things in that answer that I want to dive into a little bit more detail. So the first one is that energy efficiency has been around for a long time. You know, you said, 20 years we've been doing energy conservation in one form or another in the province of Ontario. So, what's different about this latest framework that's just been launched? How has that evolved? What's different moving forward?

Tam Wagner 10:29

Now, you're going to get me really excited to talk about this. If we reflect back on on the past, what we've had is is really time bound frameworks. Our frameworks have been anywhere from two years to five years with this new framework that we were starting in is it's a 12-year framework, so over a decade long. The other piece is the funding commitment, and so it's a 12-year framework with a $10.9 billion commitment. So, it's billion with a B. So, we're talking both from a scope and a scale perspective, significant additional investments and time commitment with the new framework. One of the recommendations that the ISO made in our midterm review report, and so this was published in 2022 and the at the midpoint of our previous framework was our recommendation was to move away from these time bound frameworks and better leverage demand side, manage, management and energy efficiency as a resource to respond to evolving system market and customer needs. So, as you noted, Trevor, there is, is the one of the things I also say too, is, is the superpower of energy efficiency is, is it really operates at that intersection point between the electricity grid needs, but also what customer needs are, being able to respond to customer needs will allow us to provide electricity savings to address those energy system needs, and with this new framework, it does exactly that. So not only is the framework a 12-year commitment, a feature of the framework is that it's enduring. So, what do I mean by it being enduring is that within that 12 year period, there's a commitment that at the six year mark, we'll do a midterm review? We'll reflect on what's working, some of the successes of the program, of the framework, but then also, what are the opportunities to enhance it? How a system needs evolved over that time? How have customer needs evolved over that time? And provide recommendations? Going forward with those recommendations, there's an opportunity for the government to then also recommit to the framework and enhance it or extend it out another six years, so that we have another 12-year framework. So, the key element of this is that the framework actually never hits its end point. It just continues to re up itself or extend itself with the with the support and commitment from government. The other piece that I'd highlight too are from a customer perspective is, is, with this framework, there's a there's something for everyone in it. When we look at the electricity system and past frameworks, it really carved out specific customer classes that our programs could serve. With this it captures businesses, whether it be small business, commercial, institutional or industrial or industrial organizations, but it also has call outs for the residential sector as well as customers that have historically been underserved or vulnerable customer segments, including income qualifier First Nations communities. So really a broad scope in not only timing and funding commitment, but also the customers that we can serve with this framework

Trevor Freeman 13:21

That's fantastic, again, lots of good stuff in there. I really like the idea of creating a more enduring model that has more predictability a longer time frame. And the benefits of that are fantastic. It gives our customers predictability. They know these programs are going to be around, and they can plan their projects ahead of time. Instead of scrambling to Hey, we got to get this done in the next 12 months or two years, or whatever the case may be, it lets you know service providers, or those folks that are out there supporting energy efficiency measures build this into their business plans and really spend the time to educate customers. And then, speaking from the utility perspective, this is also great to have that predictability. We can talk to our customers about it. We can say, look, this is the reality here. This is the program that'll be in place for a long time. So I think that's fantastic that we've got that sort of enduring model. Now.

Tam Wagner 14:19

Trevor, I feel like he's been a fly on the ISO walls that we as we've been talking about, the new framework, because those are exactly all the things that we've highlighted. The other piece I would add, too, is, from a workforce perspective, is being able to build capacity in all of our respective organizations, to be able to support the the increased need and demand for for energy efficiencies, whether it be from a contractor or skilled trade perspective. So giving us the time to invest in people as well?

Trevor Freeman 14:51

Yeah, yeah, that's another great point. And our listeners, you know, who knows what their background is, but everybody probably has some experience in you. A plan is great on paper and a program is great on paper, and when you actually implement it, there's a lot of lessons to be learned and iterations and tweaks, and having the runway to learn those lessons and make those tweaks and adjust as you know time goes on and the context change, I think, is another really great benefit of this program, and having that long timeframe to have that flexibility and have the room to maneuver, which is fantastic. So I agree. Okay, so the next thing that you mentioned a little bit ago, that I want to dive into is just the sheer magnitude of additional demand that is coming, and that's not going to be anything new to listeners. We talk about that a lot of you know all the different drivers that are pushing up demand from electrification as a result of the climate crisis, growing demand in AI data centers, et cetera, et cetera. You mentioned the projection of a 75% increase by 2050, so let's talk about the role that energy efficiency in particular will play in helping address that growth and the growing demand that's coming and making sure that we can meet that demand in an affordable way. What's the role of energy efficiency in that?

Tam Wagner 16:19

I think what I'd say is, is the challenge that that puts out to energy efficiency is our forecast. Our latest forecast indicates that 75% growth by 2050 I say the challenge that's put out to energy efficiency is, how do we make it less than 75% so with energy efficiency, what it helps to do is, is it helps to mitigate the pace of that growth by using electricity more efficiently. It's a tool in the ISOs reliability toolbox, and so it's a resource that we will directly incorporate into our planning assumptions and indicate, and basically from the from the get go, say, if we can get this savings and electricity from energy efficiency, those are megawatts that we don't have to go out and procure traditional resources or or defers the timing in which we may need to procure those additional resources, so whether that those resources be supply side generators or transmission or distribution line infrastructure, so really, being able to avoid or defer some of those infrastructure costs. The other piece too about energy efficiency, and back to that point around that intersection point between system need and customer need is our programs. By participating in our programs, you're directly getting dollars right into your pockets. So through our incentives and our rebates, those are dollars that we will provide straight to the customers and participating in our program. So that's the upfront benefit from an affordability perspective, but then from a longer term perspective is it helps customers be able to better manage their energy and usage, and being able to better manage your energy and use you can also better manage what your energy bills are. So, Trevor, you had mentioned around, okay, what are some of those peaking times, and what are the higher costs often attributed to those peaking times is through demand side management and energy efficiency. You can not only shave that peak by using less electricity. The other piece that we're really leaning into, and I keep referring to, demand side management, is, how can you control how you how you use that electricity? One of the things that we've done recently for residential consumers is through our P perks program and through something as simple as a smart thermostat, is being able to actually provide electricity systems to the system savings to the grid through small adjustments on the smart thermostat that you have at home can make really big impact from a grid. Need perspective, but then also impact what your usage is, and shifting some of your use at home into those lower priced hours, when we think of it, the time of use rates.

Trevor Freeman 18:46

Yeah, really, when it comes down to it, every kilowatt hour saved, or, you know, kilowatt avoided, is something that doesn't have to pass through a transmission line or a distribution line. It doesn't have to go through a transformer, and we don't need to generate that somewhere. And so there's obviously savings there. You mentioned a little bit earlier in a previous answer, that stat around, you know, three cents per kilowatt hour. How does that stack up? Or how does that compare to other generation or transmission assets, like when it comes to cost and reliability? Compare energy efficiency to more traditional assets.

Tam Wagner 19:24

The simple answer is, it's lower. So when one of the principles we take when we when we pursue our energy efficiency programs is we talk about it being cost effective. And what that really means is that when we compare it to other traditional infrastructure, so long as the cost of providing those energy efficiency programs, so cost from an administration perspective and delivering the programs, but also including the incentives, the rebates that we provide to customers, so long as that all in cost is less than the cost of traditional infrastructure, whether it be generation or transmission, we'll pursue it. So that's really. Where I'd say just simply, is the energy efficiency programs that we deliver are all cost effective, and so they're all a lower cost than the traditional resources that we employ.

Trevor Freeman 20:11

That working. I can speak from experience, working at the utility, and like I said previously, being in conservation, I have gotten the question in the past, why is the utility or the utility sector, spending money to get us to not use electricity? Isn't that counterproductive? And you just gave the answer right there. It's so much cheaper to do that than to try and build new generation, build new assets. It's the cheapest way to achieve that capacity, to get that capacity that we need on the grid, which, again, we talk about here all the time. So great answer. Let's get into the numbers a little bit. So you mentioned sort of previous savings that we've achieved here in the province of Ontario. And I think you said, if I'm not mistaken, since 2005 we have saved essentially the equivalent of, you know, taking 2 million homes off the grid. I hope that's the right stat. Then the targets that we've got here for this program are pretty ambitious, and so for our listeners, by the end of 2027 so that's really only two and a bit years from now, two and a half, the target for the program is to achieve 900 megawatts of demand reduction and 4.6 terawatts of energy savings. Now, for those of you who are not kind of nerdy engineers like myself, like Tam, sorry, Tam, to throw you in that bucket, that's about the same as taking a half a million homes off the grid. So we've done 2 million homes already, and the last 20 years. In the next two and a half years, we're trying to hit a quarter of that tell me a little bit about the ambition of this program.

Tam Wagner 21:53

Definitely ambitious, if I think that's really great context, and even if I take the context even more recently, when our last framework was a four-year framework. So, from 2021, to 2025, our targets there were 725, megawatts of peak demand savings and 3.8 terawatt hours of energy savings, which were aggressive then. So, we're continuing to be more aggressive on our savings. And what I'd say with that is, that what we're seeing is, is we're seeing a very engaged customer base. Ontarians are very engaged and want to do their part, and especially if their part actually doesn't require a lot of work on, on the Ontarians behalf. And so, what we're really wanting to do is, is tap into that and say, if you, if you want to do your part here, we'll give you a space for you to do your part, whether it be at home, as a as a homeowner, or in your businesses and looking at it from a larger scale perspective, really, what we want to lean into is that all hands-on deck approach. So, recognizing that this is the lowest cost resource to meet our growing needs is, let's start there first. Let's optimize. Let's get everything we can out of energy efficiency and that lowest cost resource before we go up the stack to say, Okay, if it's not an acknew, we've got to spend on something that's a little bit more expensive. But let's first try to exhaust that lowest cost resource first. And one of the things that we also recognize in doing that is, I feel like I talked a lot about the ISO, but definitely the recognition that the ISO is, is that we can't do it all ourselves, is that these growing needs are going to impact everyone, both from a end user or consumer perspective, but also businesses and organizations and utilities that you touched on before Trevor. So as we are faced with the same challenge when it comes to growing electricity needs, how do we work together to address that? And very much a I'm very much a supporter of the saying we're so much greater than the sum of our parts, and being able to work together to achieve those growing needs will be a key part in meeting those very aggressive targets.

Trevor Freeman 24:05

Yeah, so perfect segue into the next thing I want to talk about, which is the role of the different players in the sector. And so just as a refresher for everybody, the Independent Electricity System Operator is the system operator in Ontario who kind of oversees the electricity grid for the province of Ontario. We have a transmission entity who kind of gets the high voltage electricity around the province to the place it needs to be. And then there are distribution entities, and that's who hydro is, who I work for. So Tam, let's talk about the role of that local distribution company, that kind of last line before the customer when it comes to implementing this new framework.

Tam Wagner 24:50

So, I, what I would say is, is that we very explicitly call out collaboration in this framework. So, we talk about, yes, well, the local distribution companies. So specifically, we also talk about our natural gas distributors as well as the federal government in our potential collaboration efforts. So, we'll focus in on the local distribution company side of it. We recognize that as the province wide needs are growing, from a bottom up perspective, the distribution needs are growing in each of the distribution territories as well, and so especially when some of those needs are coincident with each other, there's opportunities for us to really as opposed to us each doing our own thing in order to address our own relative challenges. Is why not work together to come up with a solution that'll address both of our challenges at the same time, and a big goal of that, yes, meeting those system needs, but having that customer focus in mind and saying, looking at it to say, how can we best enhance the customer experience? And if we've got a really strong customer journey and something that really speaks to customers, more customers will participate in our programs, and we'll address our system needs. I don't want to say it as a as a byproduct or as a result, but it starts first with the customer. For the ISO, we recognize, you noted, we're a system operator. We're operating at that 10,000-foot level when it comes to electricity grid, we've had great success in recognizing the value of energy efficiency and demand side management and addressing our bulk system. Addressing our bulk system needs in working with local distribution companies, we want to also be able to support and be able to really move the conversation around how energy efficiency and demand side management can also help address those distribution system needs as well. And what that is we also recognize the strength that LDCs bring to the table when it comes to your customers and the relationship that you have with customers. So what we've been working in, and we've already been working collaboratively with local distribution companies across the province, we're really taking a an approach in two main areas when it comes to that collaboration. So first off, leading into that customer the customer relationship that local distribution companies have working with the utilities to further support the province wide programs that are delivered under the save on energy brand and enhancing the customer journey, customer experience to those really focusing on marketing and business development activities to increase the participation in our province wide programs. So that's the first area of focus that we have with our collaboration. The second area, and leading into the piece around the distribution system needs those utilities may be faced with, is, how do we work together to support some local programming, where from an as a system operator working at that 10,000-foot level, those look that local programming will also yield benefits to the bulk system. And recognizing that there may be gaps and some of the programs that we deliver today, or there may be needs very unique to a geographical area, is how do we work with the utilities to hone in on those provide those opportunities to implement different programs that complement our province wide programs potentially foster further innovation in that regards, and help address those distribution system needs while still providing benefits to the bulk system or the grid level as well. So really focusing in on those two areas. So first of all, enhancing the province wide programs, but then also zooming down a bit and looking to say, how do we work together to be able to provide funding for local programs to help address distribution system needs that the grid level will also benefit with?

Trevor Freeman 28:37

Yeah, that's great to hear. And you answered my next question already, so that's fantastic, which was around the level of knowledge and understanding that the local utilities bring to the mix of specifically what's happening with our customers on the ground in specific areas, and being able to, like you said, build or design unique aspects of the incentive program that are really targeted at a specific need in an area. So for example, if we have a part of our distribution system that's particularly constrained, we may want to target programming in that area to achieve faster results, bigger results, whatever the case may be, or if there's a particular load type or load profile that we want to tackle in an area we can sort of work with, with the ISO, to design a program that's really going to target that need and benefit the distribution and the bulk system at the same time. So great to see that that's part of the mix.

Tam Wagner 29:39

Absolutely, I think the two other things, if I can add to that, is really focusing in on what the customer needs are. And to your point, Trevor around if there are different load types or different customer uses, and then a local distribution company's territory is this, how do we how do we tap into the. And learn about it, that it might be ahead of where the broader Ontario customer base is at, and so that can really foster that innovation, and then maybe spur on potential province wide programs in the future. The other thing I'd notice is that Ontario right now, we're summer peaking, and as I mentioned, our significant electricity load comes from air conditioning. And I think the stat is about a third of our load in the summer is actually attributed to air conditioning load when we do our planning outlooks. So, our annual planning outlook is 20 years out. Is what we're starting to see, is in the early 2030s Ontario becomes dual peaking. What that means is that we still have that summer peak, but we're starting to see the winter peak increase as well, recognizing that we've got over I think over 55 local distribution companies in the province. Some of those local distribution companies are actually winter peaking today. So are there ways for us to to look at what programs, what winter focused energy efficiency programs may be available. I don't want to say pilot those, but potentially launch some of those in those winter peaking utility areas, and again, for the ISO learnings associated with that, so that when the province more broadly becomes dual peaking is have some experience, have some data to inform what might work at the province flight level, to help us better plan and prepare for that future.

Trevor Freeman 31:26

And so, for our listeners, I think we've talked about this before, but as we electrify, especially space heating, we're going to start seeing that higher load in the winter. And you know, there's a way to do it more efficiently than not. So, making sure that we're looking at technology like heat pump and smart thermostats instead of baseboard heating and, you know, sort of more analog controls for that. So programs designed to address that would make a lot of sense, as you say, Tim and in those areas where we're already seeing a significant increase in the winter. So great to hear. Okay, so this seems like a good time to kind of dive into some of the specifics about the programs. We've been sort of talking high level. Let's, let's get into the details. So for residential customers, for folks out there that you know, own their home or rent a home and have a relationship with a landlord, what are some of the programs that are available to those customers to really address energy efficiency in their homes?

Tam Wagner 32:26

So, we've got two specific programs for broad residential consumers in Ontario, I mentioned our peak perks program, and with that, it's a demand response program that's targeted at that summer peak. So it's actually been a very wildly successful program. It's been in market. We're just approaching two years. It launched June of 2023 and what that program does is, if you have central air conditioning or a heat pump in your home that cools your home in the summer, and you have a smart thermostat, is what is by enrolling in the program, you get on immediate enrollment and acceptance into the program, you get a $75 prepaid MasterCard to participate. And participation in the program involves on those peak summer days. And usually, we see those peak days between the months of June and September, will make small, a small two degree adjustment in the temperature in your home and for no longer than a three hour period. And with that is, is that that does provide relief and flattens that peak in from a province wide level to help address what our system peaks are. So I'd mentioned that program has been really successful, so over just shy of two years, we've got over 230,000 poems enrolled in the program. And what we expect with that is just over 160 megawatts of peak demand reduction as a result. When we call on the program and it's quickly become the largest virtual power plant in Canada and one of the largest in North America. So, if you're a residential consumer, with central air conditioning or heat pump that close your home and a smart thermostat, definitely something to look into. One of the things I would really highlight about that program, because you might say, Okay, two degrees. How does how does that feel? Am I going to be uncomfortable, especially if it's a peak summer, what hot and humid day? We've been really mindful of the customers through the design of that program, so the customer is always in control when it comes to our peak perks program. If you're if you work from home, or are home during a day when we're calling a peak perks event and you're finding your home is getting a little bit warmer than you would like, you can always go to your thermostat and readjust the temperature setting back to your normal setting to for to maximize on, on your comfort at the same time is, is when we know we're calling event. What we'll do is this will pre cool your home in advance of the event. So I mentioned it's a three hour event where we where we increase the temperature in your home by two degrees. Is what we'll do is, is as long as there we're not. In a state of emergency in the provinces is will adjust the temperature in your home so it's actually cooler half an hour before the events will cool your home two degrees. And then when we actually call the peak perks event, raise it. I guess the difference would be four degrees. But again, trying to maintain that coolness in your home to maximize on customer comfort and and and help with that. The other program that we have for residential consumers, and was just launched earlier this year, it's our home renovation savings program. So with that, we deliver it in collaboration with Enbridge gas, and it offers rebates for energy efficient upgrades that you may be looking to do in your home. And some of the equipment that we include in that are heat pumps as well as smart thermostats and solar PV, rooftop solar PV as that, as well as battery, battery energy storage systems. And then also, we know that when it comes to your home, being able to retain or heat or cooling weatherization as well, so attic insulation or doors and windows as well. So rebates available for all of those if you're a homeowner in Ontario, great.

Trevor Freeman 36:07

You mentioned earlier that there are sort of income qualified programs or programs for folks living in social housing and First Nations. Can you shed a little bit of light on those specific aspects?

Tam Wagner 36:18

Yes, absolutely. So we've got, again, this the this programs in collaboration with Enbridge gas as well. So we've got the ISOs, the save on energy's energy affordability program, which is offered alongside with Enbridge gasses, winter proofing program, home winter proofing program, and that offers, again, the energy efficient upgrades to customers that are income qualified. So there are income qualifications, whether you're low or moderate income household in Ontario, and it provides you with energy efficient upgrades at no cost to you. So I would highly recommend going to the save on energy.ca website to see what those income qualifications are. It's all dependent on the number of people that live in the home, what the income thresholds are, and again, the all of these upgrades would be available to you at no cost to you at all. From a First Nations programming perspective, we've got two programs offered to First Nations community. We've got the First Nations community building retrofit program as well as the remote First Nations programs, and both of them help both businesses and residences of on reserve First Nations communities make energy efficiency upgrades, again, at no cost to the community or the community members.

Trevor Freeman 37:30

Great, so, really, anybody living in a residential home, there's something out there for you. So rebates to address energy efficient equipment or support from the Ieso to or your local distribution company. Okay, so let's shift over to commercial, industrial, institutional, kind of agriculture, all the other types of customers out there. What are the programs that are being offered, and how do they differ if they do differ from previous programs?

Tam Wagner 38:01

Maybe I'll start with the last part of their question. First, what I'd say specifically with the these businesses is we're even with a new framework. We're not with the old and in with the new. So everything that's been offered in the past is basically available to customers today when it comes to those business programs, and what we're really committed to is, how do we continue to improve the offerings that we have as new technologies or available or organizations are looking to improve some of the processes that might to help result in more efficient energy and usage. So we offer a range of business programs that provide different opportunities. And really our focus is, how do we meet the businesses where they're at based on the type of business that they are, but also where they are along their energy efficiency journey. So a couple of programs that I'll highlight is, is we've got our retrofit program, and that's really been our flagship program, and under the save on energy brand, and what that does, it provides an a la carte list of prescribed technologies with Dean savings that businesses can pick from. So if you're looking at making what upgrades to your heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems and stuff, you can go to our retrofit program, and what it provides you is a list of equipment that it provide indicates what the energy savings that the ISO can expect from it, but and then also provides you with what the incentives levels are for that. So really, that's, I'd say that's kind of the simple, simplest path. From a customer journey perspective, we also recognize that there's a different range of customers when we think about our business customers, and it's not a one size fits all. We also have a small business program that recognizes the unique nature of small businesses in Ontario, and that program offers energy efficient upgrades at no cost to those businesses, and it also provides additional support to install the equipment as well. And we know that it's not all about technologies as well. I've mentioned around sometimes with processes that you. May have within your organization, they can also yield energy savings. So our strategic energy management program is designed to help organizations improve their energy performance by implementing an integrated system of organizational practices, policies and processes to achieve some of these persistent energy savings so really, what I'd say to the businesses is reflecting on what, what the nature of your organization is, how your energy and usage is, is that there's a variety of different programs that hopefully can cater to your needs and check out the save on energy.ca website to find out more.

Trevor Freeman 40:34

Yeah, I think in my kind of review of it, there's, there's support for equipment and sort of technical solutions to address energy efficiency, and you put it very, very well, you know the process, the people side of things, if you need support, if you need guidance, expertise, there's also methods of support to help you access that, whether in your organization or through other means, so lots of different avenues to address energy efficiency in all types of buildings. So those are all existing buildings, which we know are certainly a major part of energy consumption today and emissions today. But we're also building new buildings constantly and constantly adding to our building stock. So what programs are out there to address new building construction and making sure that we're constructing energy efficient buildings that go beyond existing codes and standards?

Tam Wagner 41:33

So, what I'm saying, I'll say there is, we're working on it. So as part of our 2025 to 2027 plan, we have identified the need for a new construction program. We heard this through stakeholder feedback as well. When we did our midterm review back in 2022 we we heard from stakeholders that that's a gap in our programming, and so we're looking, we were looking to address that. That gap has, that has been identified. So right now my team is we're doing some market research, and in order to help inform what the design of a new construction program may look like, our commitment is, is, is, as we've got some of those that early thinking is, we will go out and stakeholder it and invite feedback and into how best to design that program. We know the we know the things we know. We know there are things that others have expertise in, and that that expertise would really be helpful to the ISO as we, as we design the program. So I'd say, stay tuned for that and continue to look at on our stakeholder engagement website for upcoming engagements, where we will seek some feedback and insights into that design of that program.

Trevor Freeman 42:36

Perfect, one last item is beneficial electrification. So we know that the government has kind of directed the ISO to look at how to support beneficial electrification. So maybe kind of two questions here, what is beneficial electrification, if you could kind of help define that for our listeners, and what, how are you looking to support beneficial electrification for customers.

Tam Wagner 43:01

Sure, so how we look at beneficial electrification is, is really around changing your the fuel source of your end use. And that's I could probably plain language that a little bit more and maybe, well, it's easiest to use an example and an example charter that you've actually highlighted is, is for a lot of Ontarians, is, is the way you heat your home isn't actually typically with electricity, and that with fuel switching or switching the source that you heat your home with is that you can yield and really electrifying that is as you can yield greenhouse gas emissions reductions as a result of that of electrification, when We think about it from a beneficial electrification perspective, is electrification perspective, is, is with as we, as we talked about the demand in Ontario increasing is, how can we leverage the way that customers may be electrifying their end uses to ensure that we're doing it in the most efficient manner that will not only yield benefits to the Customers, from a GHG emissions perspective and from an overall energy bills perspective, but also provide benefits to the electricity grid as well. And trying to, instead of hitting that 75% is, how do we actually electrify and and electrify at a rate that's actually less than that 75% would be the goal that we're looking at here with regards to how we're actually applying that is just earlier this month. So in earlier in May, we launched our first offering through the home renovation savings program for a beneficial electrification. And what that entails is for those customers in Ontario that are currently heated through oil, propane or wood heated customers, is we do have a heat pump offering to to support electrifying those end uses that will enable the those customers to be to reduce the GHG emissions in their home, and with that is also save money on their energy bills as well recognizing. A different cost in the electricity side, versus the oil or propane fuels costs.

Trevor Freeman 45:06

Yeah, I think it's, I mean, I'm someone who, obviously, folks that are listening know, I'm pretty passionate about climate change. And if, if your only lens is GHGs or greenhouse gas reduction, you know, you may jump at electrifying in any possible way, but that could be taking out your furnace and putting in electric resistance baseboard heating, which is not a very efficient way to heat your home, or not as efficient as you could be doing with, for example, a heat pump which is much more efficient, you get a lot more energy out than you put in. And I've preached a lot about heat pumps on this program before, but that's the concept behind beneficial electrification. Is doing that fuel switching, but doing it in a way that one doesn't overly stress the grid. Two, doesn't overly stress your own energy bills, because we don't want to push people into unaffordable energy. So making sure that there's support to do the right move in the right way. Tam, just to wrap up here, you've said it a couple of times, but I'll give you a chance to say one more time, where do folks go to find out more information about these programs, what they can access? How to get that support? Where should they go and look?

Tam Wagner 46:18

So our website is the best place to get that information. So it's saveonenergy.ca. Whether you're a residential, consumer or business, all the information is there. And we also have energy savings tips on our website. So again, that's Saveonenergy.ca.

Trevor Freeman 46:34

Perfect. And I'm going to selfishly add a little plug in there of you can also reach out to your local distribution company, especially if you're here in hydro Auto's territory, we would be happy to help you access these programs and point you in the right direction and make sure that you're getting the support that you need through these programs. Tam, thanks so much for walking through this new framework. It's super exciting. I mean, it's a little bit close to my heart. Again, I've been working in conservation for a while before I moved into my current role, I spent a lot of time in conservation, so it's great to hear about the evolution of the program and where it's going. I'm really excited that it's such an important piece of the planning mix that it's getting the sort of recognition and focus that it's due and really exciting to see how it goes in the next couple of years. So to wrap up, we always end our interviews with a series of questions. So as long as you're ready, Tim, I'm going to jump right in with the first question being, what is a movie or a show that you have watched or are currently watching that you think everybody should take a look at?

Tam Wagner 47:40

This takes away from the seriousness of the conversation that we've been having.

Trevor Freeman 47:44

That's the goal we're trying to focus here.

Tam Wagner 47:47

So for those who don't know me, is I've got, I do have two kids in a series that we're watching right now. Is the rookie. Have you watched that before? Trevor? I

Trevor Freeman 47:56

I haven't, no, but it's on the list. We've got a long list

Tam Wagner 47:58

That sounds like our household as as as well. And it's a fun time. It's, it's a series that we can we watch as a family. And it's, I feel like sometimes we, you know, we try to solve the crime before the show does. But it also has a really good story, kind of, the initial story around an individual who is, I'd say, later in his career, but had a moment where he explored a career shift. And for me, that message there is around like you're never too old to try something new and be successful in it. So I think that's a really good message for me myself, but also a good message for my kids.

Trevor Freeman 48:38

Yeah, very cool. I like that one. I'll have to bump that up on the list. We'll watch it sooner rather than later. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, carbon offset accounted for, of course, where would you go?

Tam Wagner 48:50

So I would go to Vietnam. So I am Vietnamese by background, born there, but I've lived in Canada for, oh, over 40 years, been back there a couple of times, and I've always loved it. It's a So, yes, back to kind of from a cultural roots perspective, there's just so much history there. It's a completely different climate from what we have here in Canada. The people are incredibly friendly, and the food is fantastic.

Trevor Freeman 49:21

I have a tiny, tiny sliver of experience, and can say that Vietnam I visited once, and was definitely on the top of my all time favorite trips for a number of different reasons. All the ones you just mentioned are certainly up there for sure. Who is someone that you admire.

Tam Wagner 49:37

And again, I'm going to cheat on this one a little bit, so because it will be fun, but my parents with them. So I'd mentioned were first generation immigrants, when I think about the things that they've done and to come to Canada, we came to Canada as refugees, so to leave a place that they were very comfortable in. Knew the culture. Knew the language to come to a country where completely different environment, completely different culture, had no family here, and their reason for doing it was so that myself and my brothers could have greater opportunities as a parent. I'd like to think that if I was faced with that, I would make the same decision. But until you're actually in those shoes, you never know whether you whether you would or not, so I am definitely very grateful for the decisions that they've made, because it's landed me where I am today, and are very appreciative of that. So very much admire them.

Trevor Freeman 50:32

Yeah, that's a fantastic story. Thanks for sharing that. Tim. Finally, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about.

Tam Wagner 50:43

We're at a really unique spot right now in that we are very much building for the future, and not just our future or kids future. When we think about the electricity infrastructure, it's things, it's something that's going to be in place for the next 40 plus years. So being able to face that challenge to build something for the generations to come is very exciting for me. It's not just the what of it, but how we do it. As I touched on before around, we're greater than the sum of our parts. Is being able to do that in a way that we can collaborate with each other, really lean on each other's strengths, learn from each other, and then I think that foundational culture is the way that we'll be really successful and ensuring that we can have that reliable, affordable and sustainable electricity future. So excited about the challenge, but also even more excited about how we're going to face that challenge and work together to to to be successful.

Trevor Freeman 51:40

Yes, I love that, and I think that's a great place to wrap this up. I love that. And I say this often to folks like, I can't think of a better spot to be when I think about climate and energy and the energy transition than kind of in the electricity sector, thinking about how all roads, or at least most roads, to the things that we want to envision run through the electricity grid and all the different nuances of that. And you could go down endless paths of, how do we make sure that this is going to work, and how do we make sure it's going to be affordable and that people are going to have the power they need? So super glad to hear that you're excited about that and passionate about that, super glad that you're putting your efforts towards that. Thanks. For coming on and talking to us today and sort of sharing your expertise and wisdom around this pretty exciting new program that hopefully is going to be a major piece of our energy future here in Ontario, at least moving forward.

Tam Wagner 52:38

Thanks for having me. Really appreciated you taking the time and spending it with me as well Trevor.

Trevor Freeman 52:42

Fantastic Tam Wagner, thanks very much for coming on, and we'll chat again soon. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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Canada’s energy conversation grows louder every day. But before we can address the national goals or even energy independence, we need to look at our local utilities and energy systems to understand their capabilities. Host Trevor Freeman walks through how the energy conversation needs to start locally, how to future-proof energy systems, and what the hardworking crews do to build and maintain these systems. Listen to episode 156 of thinkenergy.

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Transcript:

Transcript: Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to a thinkenergy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will compliment our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another thinkenergy short. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman. I'm recording this the day after our federal election here in Canada, and energy, as it so often does, did come up on the campaign trail. There was talk about the transfer of energy from province to province, including a west, east pipeline and a national interconnected electricity grid, which we've talked about a little bit here on the show before, improving the way that we move electricity from province to province, not just sort of north to south, between us and the United States, there was also talk about specific strategies on how to address climate targets, albeit not very much talk about that. Nor was there a lot of talk about how to foster the energy transition, although it did pop up from time to time, especially if you're an energy nerd like me and went looking for it. The point is whether it was front and center in election ads or not. There are some big decisions to be made regarding energy in the coming years, and those big decisions will undoubtedly lead, one way or another, to some big energy projects. But that is not what we're going to talk about today. We're actually going to zoom in a little bit and talk about the work that goes on a little bit closer to home that is critical to making the entire system work for the end user. You the customer, me the customer, including those big energy projects, and that is the work that is done to build and maintain our local distribution grid. So the poles and the wires and the transformers that you see outside your home or outside your business that's actually bringing the power the final step, so that you can use it before we can talk about national energy independence, or these large goals that we have as a country. When it comes to energy, we need to make sure that the poles and wires and transformers in every city, every town and every neighborhood are ready, and that we're building the necessary infrastructure to meet that growing demand, and that is where your local utility comes in. We don't just maintain the system that we have, we prepare it for the future and make sure that we're laying the foundation that we need for tomorrow. Here in Ottawa, it is finally, finally spring, or at least it feels like it's finally spring outside, and that means that construction and outdoor work is starting to ramp up. So today I'd like to shed a little bit of light into what our crews do and your local utilities crews likely do to maintain and to build our system. When it comes to keeping our grid operating in tip top shape, nothing beats planned maintenance. This is the cornerstone of any electric utility strategy to deliver safe and reliable power, and this includes proactive measures like replacing aging equipment, trimming trees near power lines and performing essential upgrades. Such activities are vital in reducing the frequency and duration of unexpected outages and helping maintain that resilient power system that we all rely on. So let's go step by step. Utility poles, they are assessed regularly and replaced as needed. Utilities critical hydro pull program tests 1000s of pools annually to identify the ones that require maintenance and new pull installations also support great expansion to meet a city or a community's growing need new residential developments or new commercial developments. For example, next would be something like vegetation management. So this is another critical aspect. Regular tree trimming and removal near power lines can help prevent outages and safety hazards, especially during storms and high winds. Utilities like Hydro Ottawa, who I work for, employ satellite imaging technology to scan the grid, you know, at least twice a year, to identify high risk areas and potentially dead or dying trees, to allow for proactive maintenance, and that's in addition to the sort of visual inspection that happens as our crews are moving about our system, so all these different techniques that we use. It's like high tech arboriculture with Mission grid resilience. We are aiming to reduce the amount of tree contact with our system. If we go below our streets, we will see chambers connecting vast duct structures to our substations. So where you don't see overhead lines, that means those lines are buried running through duct work maintenance, hole upgrades and cable replacements are also part of a comprehensive maintenance strategy. These efforts are critical to keep our underground infrastructure safe and ensure that the structural integrity of our entire power system is able to accommodate our city's current and growing a. Electricity demands, we also have equipment like Transformers and switches and circuit breakers that are located both outside, overhead, underground, in substations and transformers, and they undergo routine inspections and replacements to prevent potential service disruptions. But it's not just maintaining what we've got, we also need to continue expanding to meet growing need we talk a lot on this show, as all you listeners know about the fact that our demand for electricity is growing, and it's growing at a pace that we really haven't seen before. So we need to make sure that we are building out our grid to be able to meet that demand. In order to do this Hydro Ottawa, for example, is embarking on one of the largest Grid Investment Programs in our entire history, and it's something that a lot of utilities in Ontario and across the country are looking at as they do their long term planning and forecasting. So as an example of just what the pace of change is here in Ottawa, traditionally, we would build a new substation every kind of five to seven years. And this is a major project. A substation is a big project. And so one every five to seven years has been the pace in our next five year period. So kind of between now and 2030 we are planning to energize a new substation every single year for the next five years, substations play a pivotal role in the power grid stepping down high voltage electricity that we get from transmission lines to lower voltages that are suitable for distribution to homes and businesses to our customers. So as an example, again, here in Ottawa, we have a substation that became fully operational in 2022 in Ottawa's southwest end, and that substation alone can power 32,000 homes annually. So substations are one of the major pieces of work that we are doing to build out our grid and provide for the growing electricity demands. And along with those substations come new distribution lines and more poles and wires and transformers and all of the associated equipment. Now, a lot of this work might sound routine, but it's not. It's strategic and forward looking and absolutely essential if we want to build a clean, flexible, reliable energy future here in Canada. So when utilities replace an old pull today, it's not just maintaining the status quo. It's laying the foundation for a National Clean grid tomorrow, it's supporting some of those large projects that we talked about at the very beginning of this episode. When utilities install a new conduit for easier cable upgrades, that conduit could be helping future generations of Canadians stay connected to renewable power. When utilities trim one branch at a time, they're protecting the integrity of an entire community's power system. Now behind these initiatives are a number of dedicated, capable, really smart folks that are working on these projects. Obviously, we've got our outdoor crew so power line technicians, our overhead and underground crews, our stations technicians, our forestry crews. These are the folks that are really out on the front line, that are maintaining and building our grid. You'll often see them out there by our trucks, or in orange, if you see them, keep your distance because they're working, but give them a thumbs up, or say hi. Wave at them and tell them they're doing a great job, because they always are. But then we also have some, let's call them back of house folks that are working on various aspects of our grids, and that's everything from our powerhouse technicians that are operating and monitoring the generators that are in our generating stations, and for Hydro Ottawa, that includes our Shoji air generating station in downtown Ottawa on the Ottawa River. We've got smart grid engineers that are focused on integrating renewable energy resources and modernizing the grid to make it more resilient and sustainable and to bring more data in from the grid to let us make better decisions. We've got system operators that really serve as a communications hub between the field workers and the control center, ensuring rapid response to outages and maintaining the integrity of our distribution system. If you haven't already listened to an episode I did almost a year ago now about grid modernization with with Jenna from Jenna Gillis from Hydro Ottawa. Have a listen to that, and you'll hear a little bit about what those system operators do. The collective efforts of all these folks and many others are really crucial to supporting both the local needs and our national energy objectives. So these big projects, again, to you know, to say that point again, those large projects don't happen without the day to day small projects happening as well. So there you have it. I hope you found that to be an interesting look into some of the essential work that your local municipal utility is doing, and how that connects to those larger, big energy policy decisions and projects. As always, really appreciate you tuning in and look forward to chatting with you next time. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or our guests, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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Greg Lindsay is an urban tech expert and a Senior Fellow at MIT. He’s also a two-time Jeopardy champion and the only human to go undefeated against IBM’s Watson. Greg joins thinkenergy to talk about how artificial intelligence (AI) is reshaping how we manage, consume, and produce energy—from personal devices to provincial grids. He also explores its rapid growth and the rising energy demand from AI itself. Listen in to learn how AI impacts our energy systems and what it means individually and industry-wide.

Related links

● Greg Lindsay website: https://greglindsay.org/

● Greg Lindsay on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-lindsay-8b16952/

● International Energy Agency (IEA): https://www.iea.org/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Scott Demark, President and CEO of Zibi Community Utility, joins thinkenergy to discuss how our relationship with energy is changing. With two decades of expertise in clean energy and sustainable development, Scott suggests reimagining traditional energy applications for heating and cooling. He shares how strategic energy distribution can transform urban environments, specifically how district energy systems optimize energy flow between buildings for a greener future. Listen in.

Related links

• Scott Demark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-demark-83640473/
• Zibi Community Utility: https://zibi.ca/
• Markham District Energy Inc: https://www.markhamdistrictenergy.com/
• One Planet Living: https://www.bioregional.com/one-planet-living
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

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https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

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Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

Speaker 1 00:29

Hi everyone. Welcome back. One of the overarching aspects of the energy transition that we have talked about several times on this show is the need to change our relationship with energy, to rethink the standard way of doing things when it comes to heating and cooling and transportation, etc. This change is being driven by our need to decarbonize and by the ongoing evolution and improvement of technology. More things are becoming available to us as technology improves on the decarbonization front, we know that electrification, which is switching from fossil fuel combustions to electricity for things like space and water heating vehicles, etc, is one of the most effective strategies. But in order to switch out all the end uses to an electric option, so swapping out furnaces and boilers for heat pumps or electric boilers, switching all gas cars to EVs, etc. In order to do that in a way that is affordable and efficient and can be supported by our electricity grid, we need to think about multi strategy approaches, so we can't just continue to have this one way power grid where every home, every business, every warehouse or office tower satisfies all of its energy needs all the time directly from the grid with no adaptability. That isn't the best approach. It's not going to be affordable or efficient. We're not going to be able to do it fast enough. The multi strategy approach takes into account things like distributed energy resources, so solar and storage, etc, which we've talked about many times on this show, but it also includes approaches like district energy. So, district energy is rethinking how energy flows between adjacent buildings, looking for opportunities to capture excess energy or heat from one source and use that to support another. And that is the focus of today's conversation. To help us dive into this topic, I'm really happy to welcome Scott Demark to the show. Scott has been a champion of sustainability, clean energy solutions and energy efficiency in the Ottawa real estate and development industry for over 20 years now, he has overseen many high-performance development projects and was one of the driving forces behind the Zibi development in downtown Ottawa, and most applicable for today's conversation the renewable district energy system that provides heating and cooling to the Zibi site. Scott is the president and CEO of the Zibi community utility, as well as a partner at Thea partners. Scott Demark, welcome to the show.

Scott Demark 03:15

Thanks. Nice to see you. Trevor,

Trevor Freeman 03:17

So, Scott, why don't we start with definitions are always a good place to start. So, when we talk about a district energy system, give us a high-level overview of what exactly that means.

Scott Demark 03:27

Sure, a district energy system is, is simply the connection, or interconnection of thermal energy sources, thermal energy sinks. And so really, in practical terms. It means, instead of buildings having their own furnace and cooling system, buildings connect to a hydronic loop. A hydronic loop is just pipes filled with water, and then the heat or the cooling is made somewhere else, and that heat or lack of heat cooling is in a pipe. They push the pipe to the building, and then the pipe extracts the heat or rejects the heat to that loop. And so it's simply an interconnection of us as sources and sinks for federal energy.

Trevor Freeman 04:14

And I guess one of the important concepts here is that buildings often create heat, not just through a furnace or not just through the things that are meant to create heat, but, you know, server racks, computer server racks, generate a lot of heat, and that heat has to go somewhere. So oftentimes we're cooling buildings to remove heat that's being created in those buildings, and then other buildings nearby need to be heated in order to make that space comfortable. Is that fair to say?

Scott Demark 04:42

Yeah, absolutely. Trevor, so, an office building in the city of Ottawa, big old government office building, you'll see a pretty big plume on the roof in the winter time. That's not just kind of the flue gas from a boiler, but rather it is actually chillers are. running inside to make cooling, and they're just selling that heat to the atmosphere, even on the coldest day of the year. So, it's people, you know, people are thermal load. Computers are thermal load, and so is solar gain. You know, January is pretty dark period for us, meaning low angle sun. But by this time in a year, you know, or at the end of February, there's a lot of heat in that sun. So, a glass building absorbs a lot of sun. An office building will need cooling on the sunny side of that building a lot of the time, even in the dead of winter.

Trevor Freeman 05:31

Yeah. So, a district system, then, is taking advantage of the fact that heat exists, and we don't necessarily need to either burn fossil fuels or even if it's a, you know, a clean system, we don't have to expend energy to create heat, or create as much heat if we could move that heat around from where it's kind of naturally occurring to where we need it.

Scott Demark 05:54

That's right at the very core of a district energy system. You're going to move heat from a place that it's not wanted to a place that it is wanted. And so in our example of the office building, you know, on the February day with the sun shining in and the computers all running, that building's getting rid of heat. But right next door, say there's a 20-story condo. Well, that 20 story condo needs heating and it also needs domestic hot water. So, year-round, domestic hot water represents 30, 35% of the heating load of any residential building, so at all times. So, a district energy system allows you to take that heat away from the office building and give it to the residential building, instead of making the heat and dissipating that heat to the atmosphere in the office building. So, yeah, it's, it's really a way to move, you know, from sources to sinks. That's, that's what a district energy system does well.

Trevor Freeman 06:48

So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition. This, this push to, one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs. And two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, etc., to more of a two-way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition. How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?

Scott Demark 07:27

I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in. That industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are just starting right. Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth, and so they don't have the same cost structure, and often times they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore, a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where, you know, you might want to go and recover heat from some process, and we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if he wanted to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it, but if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden, makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So, once you've established that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings, what the source and what the sources, doesn't matter. So, you may have at one point built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy System is a great example of this market District Energy System was built on the concept of using a co-generation facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity, they sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well, here we are, 20 plus years later, and, they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system Augment, not fully replaced, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So, they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't have to rip up the pipes, they don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept. Now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.

Trevor Freeman 10:21

So, you mentioned, I want to pick on something you said there. You talked about a sewer heat energy system. They're pulling heat from the sewer. Just help our listeners understand high level kind of, why is there heat there for us to pull? Like, what's the what's the source there?

Scott Demark 10:38

Yeah. So, when we shower, when we flush toilets, all of that is introducing heat into a sewer system. So, we're collecting heat from everybody's house into the sewer system. The sewer system also sits below the frost line. So, call it Earth coupled. You know it's the earth in Ottawa below the frost line sits around eight, eight and a half c and so at that temperature and the temperature of flushing toilets, we essentially get a sewer temperature in the on the coldest day of the year, that's around 10 10, and a half degree Celsius. And obviously, for lots of the year, it's much warmer than that. And so I think, you know, a lot of people are kind of familiar with the concept of geo exchange energy, or that. Lot of people call it geothermal, but you exchange where you might drill down into the earth, and you're taking advantage of that eight, eight and a half degrees, I'll see. So, you're exchanging heat, you can reject heat to the earth, or you can absorb heat from the earth. Well, this is the same idea, but you accept or reject from the sewer. But because the sewer is relatively shallow, it is cheaper to access that energy, and because it's warm, and on the coldest day, a couple of degrees make a big difference, Trevor, and most of the year so much warmer, you're really in a very good position to extract that heat, and that's all it is. You are just accepting or rejecting heat. You don't use the sewage itself. It doesn't come into your building. You have a heat exchanger in between. But that's, that's what you do.

Trevor Freeman 12:10

Yeah, great. And I, we've talked before on the show about the idea that, you know, for a air source, heat pump, for example, you don't need a lot of heat energy to extract energy from the air. It can be cold outside, and there is still heat energy in the air that you can pull and use that to heat a building, heat water, whatever. So same concept, except you've got a much warmer source of energy, I guess.

Scott Demark 12:34

Yeah, exactly. And you know, Trevor, when you look at the efficiency curves of those air source heat pumps, you know, they kind of drop off a cliff at minus 20. Minus 22 in fact. You know, five or six years ago, they that that was dropping off at minus 10. So, we've come a long way in air source heat pumps. But imagine on that coldest, coldest day of the year, you're still your source is well above zero, and therefore your efficiency. So, the amount of electricity you need to put into the heat pump to get out the heat that you need is much lower, so it's a way more efficient heat exchange.

Trevor Freeman 13:07

Great. Thanks for that, Scott. I know that's a bit of a tangent here, but always cool to talk about different ways that we're coming up with to heat our buildings. So back to district energy. We've talked through some of the benefits of the system. If I'm a building owner and I'm have the decision to connect to a system that's there, or have my own standalone, you know, traditional boiler, whatever the case may be, or even in a clean energy one, a heat pump, whatever. What are the benefits of being on a district system versus having my own standalone system for just my building.

Scott Demark 13:42

Yeah, so when you're wearing the developer’s hat, you know they're really looking at it financially. If they have other goals around sustainability, great, that will factor into it. But most of them are making decisions around this financially. So, it needs to compete with that. That first cost that we talked about the easiest ways, is boilers, gas fired boilers is the cheapest way. And so, they're going to look to see it at how. How does this compare to that? And so, I think that's the best way to frame it for you. And so, the difference here is that you need to install in your building a cooling system and a heating system. In Ottawa, that cooling system is only used for a few months a year, and it's very expensive. It takes up space, whether you're using a chiller and a cooling tower on the roof or using a dry cooler, it takes up roof space, and it also takes up interior space. If you do have a cooling tower, you have a lot of maintenance for that. You need to turn it on and turn it off in the spring, on and fall, etc., just to make sure all that happens and you need to carry the life cycle of that boiler plant. You need to bring gas infrastructure into your building. You generally need to put that gas boiler plant high in your building. So up near the top, and that's for purposes of venting that properly. Now that's taking real estate, right? And it's taking real estate on the area that's kind of most advantageous, worth the most money. So you might lose a penthouse to have a boiler and chiller room up there. And you also, of course, lose roof space. And today, we really do try to take advantage of those rooftop, patios and things, amenities are pretty important in buildings. And so, when I compare that to district energy at the p1 level, p2 level in your building, you're going to have a small room, and I really do mean small where the energy transfer takes place, you'll have some heat exchangers. And small, you might have a space, you know, 10 or 12 feet by 15 to 18 feet would be big enough for a 30-story tower, so a small room where you do the heat exchange and then Trevor, you don't have anything in your building for plants that you would normally look after. So, when you look at the pro forma for owning your building over the lifetime of it. You don't have to maintain boilers. You don't have to have boiler insurance. You don't have to maintain your chillers. You don't have to have life cycle replacement on any of these products. You don't need anybody operating those checking in on the pressure vessels. None of that has to happen. All of that happens on the district energy system. So, you're really taking something you own and operate, and replacing that with a service. So, district energy is a service, and what, what we promised to deliver is the heating you need and the cooling you need. 24/7. The second thing you get is more resilience, and I'll explain that a little bit. Is that in a in a normal building, if you if the engineers looked at it and said, you need two boilers to keep your building warm, then you're probably going to install three. And that is kind of this, and plus one sort of idea, so that if one boiler goes down, you have a spare. And you need to maintain those. You need to pay for that. You need to maintain those, etc. But in district energy system, all that redundancy is done in the background. It's done by us, and we have significantly more redundancy than just n plus one in this example. But overall, you know, if you have 10 buildings on your district energy system, each of those would have had n plus one. We don't have n plus 10 in the plant. And so overall, the cost is lower, I would say, if you look at it globally, except the advantages you do have better than N plus one in the plant. So, we have higher resiliency at a lower cost.

Trevor Freeman 17:39

So, we know there's no such thing as a miracle solution that works in all cases. What are the best use cases for district energy system? Where does it make a lot of sense?

Scott Demark 17:50

Yeah, in terms some, in some ways the easiest things, Pretty work. Doesn't make sense. So, so it doesn't make sense in sprawling low rise development. So, the cost of that hydronic loop those water pipes is high. They have to fit in the roadway. It's civil work, etc. And so, you do need density. That doesn't mean it has to be high rise density. You know, if you look at Paris, France, six stories district energy, no problem. There's, there's lots and lots of customers for that scale of building. It doesn't have to be all high rise, but it does, District Energy does not lend itself well to our sprawling style of development. It's much more suited to a downtown setting. It also kind of thrives where there's mixed use. You know, I think the first example we were talking about is office building shedding heat, residential building needing heat. You know, couple that with an industrial building shedding heat. You know, these various uses, a variety of uses on a district energy system, is the best, because its biggest advantage is sharing energy, not making energy. And so, a disparity of uses is the best place to use that. I think the other, the other thing to think about, and this is harder in Canada than the rest of the world, is that, you know, it's harder on a retrofit basis, from a cost perspective, than it is in a in a new community where you can put this in as infrastructure. Day one, you're going to make a big difference. And I'll, you know, give a shout out to British Columbia in the Greater Vancouver area. So, the district, you know, down in the Lower Mainland, they, they kind of made this observation and understood that if they were going to electrify, then District Energy gave economies of scale to electrify that load. And they do a variety of things, but one of the things they do is, is kind of district you exchange system so, so big heat pumps coupled to big fields, and then spring heat made a bunch of buildings. But these are green field developments Trevor. So, as they expand their suburbs. They do need to build the six stories. They very much have kind of density around parks concept. So now Park becomes a geo field. Density around the geo field, but this infrastructure is going in the same time as the water pipes. It's going in at the same time as the roads, the sidewalks, etc. You can dramatically reduce your cost, your first cost related to that hydro loop, if you're putting it in the same time you're doing the rest of the services.

Trevor Freeman 20:27

So, we're not likely to see, you know, residential neighborhoods with single family homes or multi-unit homes, whatever, take advantage of this. But that sort of low rise, mid rise, that's going to be more of a good pick for this. And like you said, kind of development is the time to do this. You mentioned other parts of the world. So, district energy systems aren't exactly widespread. In Canada, we're starting to see more of them pop up. What about the rest of the world? Are there places in the world where we see a lot more of this, and they've been doing this for a long time?

Scott Demark 21:00

Yeah. So, I'd almost say every, everywhere in the northern hemisphere, except North America, has done much more of this. And, you know, we really look to kind of Scandinavia as the gold standard of this. You look to Sweden, you look to Denmark, you look to Germany, even. There's, there's a lot of great examples of this, and they are typically government owned. So, they are often public private partnerships, but they would be various levels of government. So, you know, if you, if you went to Copenhagen, you'd see that the municipality is an owner. But then their equivalent of a province or territory is actually a big part of it, too. And when they built their infrastructure ages ago, they did not have an easy source of fossil fuels, right? And so, they need to think about, how can we do this? How can we share heat? How can we centralize the recovery of heat? How can we make sure we don't waste any and this has just been ingrained in them. So there's massive, massive District Energy loops, interconnecting loops, some owned by municipalities. Someone probably, if you build the factory, part of the concept of your factory, part of the pro forma of your factory is, how much can I sell my waste heat for? And so, a factory district might have a sear of industrial partners who own a district energy loop and interfaces with the municipal loop all sort of sharing energy and dumping it in. And so that's, you know, that's what you would study. That's, that's where we would want to be, and the heart of it is, just as I said, we've really had, you know, cheap or, you know, really cheap fossil fuels. We've had no price on pollution. And therefore, it really hasn't needed to happen here. And we're starting to see the need for that to happen here.

Trevor Freeman 22:58

It's an interesting concept to think of, you know, bringing that factory example in, instead of waste heat or heat as a byproduct of your process being a problem that you need to deal with, something you have to figure out a way to get rid of. It becomes almost an asset. It's a it's a, you know, convenient commodity that's being produced regardless, that you can now look to sell and monetize?

Scott Demark 23:21

Yeah, you go back to the idea of, like, what are the big benefits of district energy? Is that, like, if that loop exists and somebody knows that one of the things the factory produces is heat, well, that's a commodity I produce, and I can, I can sell it, if I have a way to sell it right here. You know, we're going to dissipate it to a river. We may dissipate it to the atmosphere. We're going to get rid of it. Like you said, it's, it's, it's waste in their minds and in Europe, that is absolutely not waste.

Trevor Freeman 23:49

And it coming back to that, you know, question of, where does this make sense? You talked about mixed use. And it's also like the, you know, the temporal mix use of someone that is producing a lot of heat during the day when the next-door residential building is empty, then when they switch, when the factory closes and the shift is over and everybody comes home from work, that's when that building needs heat. That's when they want to be then taking that heat to buildings next to each other that both need heat at the same time is not as good a use cases when it's offset like that.

Scott Demark 24:23

Yeah, that's true. And unless lots of District Energy Systems consider kind of surges in storage, I know our system at CB has, has kind of a small storage system related to the domestic hot water peak load. However, you can also think of the kilometers and kilometers and kilometers of pipes full of water as a thermal battery, right? So, so you actually are able to even out those surges. You let the temperature; the district energy system rise. When that factory is giving all out all kinds of heat, it's rising even above the temperature. You have to deliver it at, and then when that peak comes, you can draw down that temperature and let the whole district energy system normalize to its temperature again. So you do have an innate battery in the in the water volume that sits in the district energy system

Trevor Freeman 25:15

Very cool. So you've mentioned Zibi a couple times, and I do want to get into that as much as we're talking about other parts of the world, you know, having longer term district energy systems. Zibi, community utility is a great example, right here in Ottawa, where you and I are both based of a district energy system. Before we get into that, can you, just for our listeners that are not familiar with Zibi, give us a high level overview of what that community is its location, you know, the goals of the community. And then we'll talk about the energy side of things.

Scott Demark 25:46

Sure. So Zibi was formerly Domtar paper mills. It's 34 acres, and it is in downtown Ottawa and downtown Gatineau. About a third of the land mass is islands on the Ontario side, and two thirds the land mass is on the shore, the north shore of the Ottawa River in Gatineau, both downtown, literally in the shadows of Parliament. It is right downtown. It was industrial for almost 200 years. Those paper mills shut down in the 90s and the early 2000s and my partners and I pursued that to turn it from kind of this industrial wasteland, walled off, fenced off, area that no one could go into, what we're hoping will be kind of the world's most Sustainable Urban Community, and so at build out, it will house, you know, about six, 7000 people. It will be four and a half million square feet, 4.24 point 4 million square feet of development. It is master planned and approved, and has built about, I think we're, at 1.1 million square feet, so we're about quarter built out. Now. 10 buildings are done and connected to the district energy system there. And really, it's, it's an attempt to sort of recover land that was really quite destroyed. You can imagine it was a pretty polluted site. So, the giant remediation plan, big infrastructure plan. We modeled this, this overall sustainability concept, over a program called one planet living which has 10 principles of sustainability. So, you know, you and I are talking a lot about carbon today, but there's also very important aspects about affordability and social sustainability and lifestyle, and all of those are incorporated into the one planet program, and encourage people to look up one planet living and understand what it is and look at the commitments that we've made at Zibi to create a sustainable place. We issue a report every year, kind of our own report card that's reviewed by a third party that explains where we are on our on our mission to achieve our goal of the world's most sustainable community.

Speaker 1 28:09

Yeah. And so I do encourage people to look at one planet living also. Have a look at, you know, the Zibi website, and it's got the Master Plan and the vision of what that community will be. And I've been down there, it's already kind of coming along. It's amazing. It's amazing to see the progress compared to who I think you described it well, like a bit of an industrial wasteland at the heart of one of the most beautiful spots in the city. It was really a shame what it used to be. And it's great to see kind of the vision of what it can become. So that's awesome,

Scott Demark 28:38

Yeah, and Trevor, especially now that the parks are coming along. You know, we worked really closely with the NCC to integrate the shoreline of Zibi to the existing, you know, bike path networks and everything. And, you know, two of the three shoreline parks are now completed and open to the public and they're stunning. And you know, so many Ottawa people have not been down there because it's not a place you think about, but it's one of the few places in Ottawa and Gatineau where you can touch the water, you know, like it's, it's, it's stunning,

Trevor Freeman 29:08

yeah, very, very cool. Okay, so the next part of that, of course, is energy. And so there is a district energy system, one of the first kind of, or the most recent big energy, District Energy Systems in Ottawa. Tell us a little bit about how you are moving energy and heating the Zibi site.

Scott Demark 29:29

Yeah. So first, I'll say, you know, we, we, we studied different, uh, ways to get to net zero. You know, we had, we had a goal of being a zero carbon community. There are low carbon examples, but a zero carbon community is quite a stretch. And even when you look at the Scandinavian examples, the best examples, they're missing their energy goals, largely because some of the inputs that are District Energy System remain false so, but also because they have trouble getting them. Performance out of the buildings. And so we looked at this. We also know from our experience that getting to zero carbon at the building scale in Ottawa is very, very difficult. Our climate is tough, super humid, super hot. Summer, very cold, very dry, winter, long winter. So, it's difficult at the building scale. It's funny Trevor, because you'd actually have an easier time getting to zero carbon or a passive house standard in affordable housing than you do at market housing. And that's because affordable housing has a long list of people who want to move in and pay rents. You can get some subsidies for capital and the people who are willing to pay rent are good with smaller windows, thicker walls, smaller units and passthroughs, needs all those kinds of things. So when down at Zibi, you're really selling views, you're competing with people on the outside of Zibi, you're building almost all glass buildings. And so it's really difficult to find a way to get to zero carbon on the building scale. So that moved us to district energy for all the reasons we've talked about today already. And so, when we looked at it for Zibi, you really look at the ingredients you have. One of the great things we have is we're split over the border. It's also a curse, but split over the border is really interesting, because you cannot move electricity over that border, but you can move thermal energy over that border. And so, for us, in thinking about electrifying thermal energy, we realized that if we did the work in Quebec, where there is clean and affordable electricity, we could we could turn that into heat, and then we could move heat to Ontario. We could move chilled water to Ontario. So that's kind of ingredient, one that we had going for us there. The second is that there used to be three mills. So originally Domtar three mills, they sold one mill. It changed hands a few times, but it now belongs to Kruger. They make tissue there so absorbent things, Kleenexes and toilet paper, absorbent, anything in that tissue process that's a going concern. So, you can see that in our skyline. You can see, on cold days, big plumes of waste heat coming out of it. And so, we really saw that as our source, really identified that as our source. And how could we do that? So, going back to the economies of scale, is, could we send a pipeline from Kruger, about a kilometer away, to Zibi? And so, when we were purchasing the land, we were looking at all the interconnections of how the plants used to be realized. There are some old pipelines, some old easements, servitudes, etc. And so, when we bought the land, we actually bought all of those servitudes to including a pipeline across the bridge, Canadian energy regulator licensed across the bridge into Ontario. And so, we mixed all these ingredients up, you know, in a pot, and came up with our overall scheme. And so that overall scheme is relatively simple. We built an energy recovery station at Kruger, where just before their effluent water, like when they're finished in their process, goes back to the river. We have a heat exchanger there. We extract heat. We push that heat in a pipe network over to Zibi. At Zibi, we can upgrade that heat using heat recovery chillers, to a useful temperature for us, that's about 40 degrees Celsius, and we push that across the bridge to Ontario, all of our buildings in Ontario, then have thin coil units. They use that 40-degree heat to heat buildings. The return side of that comes back to Quebec, and then on the Quebec side, we have a loop and all of our buildings in the Quebec side, then use heat pumps so we extract the last bit of heat. So, imagine you you've returned from a fan coil, but you're still slightly warm. That slightly warm water is enough to drive a heat pump inside the buildings. And then finally, that goes back to Kruger again, and Kruger heats it back up with their waste heat comes back. So that's our that's our heating loop. The cooling side is coupled to the Ottawa River. And so instead of us rejecting heat to the atmosphere through cooling towers, our coolers are actually coupled to the river. That's a very tight environmental window that you can operate in. So, we worked with the minister the environment climate change in Quebec to get our permit to do it. We can only be six degrees difference to the river, but our efficiency is, on average, like on an annual basis, more than double what it would be to a cooling tower for the same load. So, we're river coupled with respect to cooling for the whole development, and we're coupled to Kruger for heating for the whole development. And what that allows us to do is eliminate fossil fuels. Our input is clean Quebec electricity, and our output is heating and cooling.

Trevor Freeman 34:56

So, none of the buildings, you know, just for our listeners, none of the buildings have any. sort of fossil fuel combustion heating equipment. You don't have boilers or anything like that, furnaces in these in these buildings,

Scott Demark 35:06

no boilers, no chillers, no

Trevor Freeman 35:09

that's awesome. And just for full transparency, I should have mentioned this up front. So, the zibi community utility is a partnership between Zibi and Hydro Ottawa, who our listeners will know that I work for, and this was really kind of a joint venture to figure out a different approach to energy at the city site.

Scott Demark 35:28

Yeah, that's right, Trevor. I mean the concept, was born a long time ago now, but the concept was born by talking to Hydro Ottawa about how we might approach this whole campus differently. You know, one of hydro Ottawa's companies makes electricity, of course, Chaudiere Falls, and so that was part of the thinking we thought of, you know, micro grids and islanding this and doing a lot of different things. When Ford came in, and we were not all the way there yet and made changes the Green Energy Act. It made it challenging for us to do the electricity side, but we had already well advanced the thermal side, and hydro, you know, hydro makes a good partner in this sort of thing. When a when a developer tells someone, I'd like you to buy a condo, and by the way, I'm also the district energy provider that might put some alarm bells up, but you put a partnership in there with a trusted, long term utility partner, and explain that, you know, it is in the in the public interest, they're not going to jack rates or mess with things. And then obviously, just, you know, hydro had such a long operating record operating experience that they really brought sort of an operations and long-term utility mindset to our district energy system.

Trevor Freeman 36:45

So, looking at a system like the Zibi community utility or other district energy systems, is this the kind of thing that can scale up over time? And, you know, I bring this up because you hear people talk about, you know, a network of district energy systems across a city or across a big geographic area. Are these things that can be interconnected and linked, or does it make more sense as standalone district energy systems in those conditions that you talked about earlier?

Scott Demark 37:17

Very much the former Trevor like, and that's, you know, that's where, you know, places like Copenhagen are today. It's that, you know, there was, there was one district energy system, then there was another, then they got interconnected, then the third got added. And then they use a lot of incineration there, in that, in that part of the world, clean incineration for garbage. And so then an incinerator is coming online, and so that incinerators waste heat is going to be fed with a new district energy loop, and some other factory is going to use the primary heat from that, and then the secondary heat is going to come into the dictionary system. So, these things are absolutely expandable. They're absolutely interconnectable. There are temperature profiles. There's modern, modern thoughts on temperature profiles compared to older systems. Most of the old, old systems were steam, actually, which is not the most efficient thing the world, but that's where they started and so now you can certainly interconnect them. And I think that the example at Zibi is a decent one, because we do have two kinds of systems there. You know, I said we have fan coil units in in the Ontario side, but we have heat pumps on the other side. Well, those two things, they can coexist, right? That's there. Those two systems are, are operating together. Because the difference, you know, the difference, from the customer's perspective, in those two markets are different, and the same can be true in different parts of the city or when different sources and sinks are available. So, it is not one method of doing district energy systems. What you do is you examine the ingredients you have. I keep saying it, but sources and sinks. How can I look at these sources and sinks in a way that I can interconnect them and make sense? And sometimes that means that a source or a sink might be another district energy system,

Trevor Freeman 39:12

Yeah, systems that maybe work in parallel to each other, in cooperation with each other. Again, it's almost that temporal need where there's load high on at one point in time and low on the other point in time. Sharing is a great opportunity.

Scott Demark 39:26

Yeah, absolutely

Trevor Freeman 39:27

great. Okay, last question for you here, Scott, what is needed, maybe from a regulatory or a policy lens to encourage more implementation of district energy systems. How do we see more of these things happen here in Canada or North America?

Scott Demark 39:45

The best way to put this, the bureaucracy has been slow to move is, is what I'll say. And I'll use Zibi as that example. When we when we pitch the district energy system. At Zibi, we had to approach the City of Ottawa, and we had to approach the city at Gatineau, the City of Ottawa basically said to us, no, you can't put those in our streets. Engineering just said, no, no, no, no. And so, what we did at Zibi is we actually privatized our streets in order to see our vision through, because, because Ottawa wasn't on board, the city of Gatineau said, Hmm, I'm a little worried. I want you to write protocols of how you will access your pipes and not our pipes. I want to understand where liability ends and starts and all of this kind of stuff. And we worked through that detail slowly, methodically with the city of Gatineau, and we came to a new policy on how district energy could be in a public street and Zb streets are public on the Gatineau side today, you know, come forward 10 years here, and the City of Ottawa has a working group on how to incorporate District Energy pipes into streets. We've been able to get the City of Ottawa to come around to the idea that we will reject and accept heat from their sewer. You know, Hydro Ottawa, wholly owned company of the City of Ottawa, has an active business in district energy. So Trevor, we've come really far, but it's taken a long time. And so, if you ask me, How can we, how can we accelerate district energy, I think a lot of it has to do with the bureaucracy at municipalities. And you know, we're we see so much interest from the Federation of Canadian municipalities, who was the debt funder for zcu. We have multiple visits from people all over Canada, coming to study and look at this as an example. And I'm encouraged by that. But it's also, it's also not rocket science. We need to understand that putting a pipe in a street is kind of a just, just a little engineering problem to solve, whereas putting, you know, burning fossil fuels for these new communities and putting it in the atmosphere, like the genies out of the bottle, right, like, and unfortunately, I think, for a lot of bureaucrats, the challenge at the engineering level is that that pipe in the street is of immediate, complex danger to solving that problem, whereas it's everybody's problem that the that the carbons in the atmosphere. So, if we could accelerate that, if we could focus on the acceleration of standards around District Energy pipes and streets, the rights of a district energy company to exist, and not to rant too much, but give you an example, is that a developer is required to put gas infrastructure into a new community, required, and yet you have to fight to get a district energy pipe in the street. So there needs to be a change of mindset there, and, and, and we're not there yet, but that's where we need to go.

Trevor Freeman 43:07

Yeah, well, it'll be interesting. You know, in 10 years, let's talk again and see how far we come. Hopefully not 10 years. Hopefully it's more like five, to see the kind of change that you've seen in the last decade. But I think that the direction is encouraging, the speed needs a little bit of work, but I'm always encouraged to see, yeah, things are changing or going in the right direction, just slowly. Well, Scott, we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, so as long as you're okay with it, I'll jump right into those. So, the first question is, what is a book you've read that you think everybody should read?

Scott Demark 43:41

Nexus? Which is by Harare. He's the same author that wrote sapiens. Lots of people be familiar with sapiens. And so, Nexus is, is really kind of the history of information that works like, how do we, how do we share and pass information? And kind of a central thesis is that, you know, information is, is neither knowledge nor truth. It is information, and it's talking a lot about, in the age of AI, how are we going to manage to move information into truth or knowledge? And I think it, you know, to be honest, it kind of scared the shit out of me reading it kind of how, how AI is impacting our world and going to impact our world. And what I thought was kind of amazing about it was that he really has a pretty strong thesis around the erosion of democracy in this time. And it's, it was, it was really kind of scary because it was published before the 2024, election. And so it's, it's really kind of both a fascinating and scary read. And I think really something that everybody should get their head around.

Trevor Freeman 44:59

Yeah, there's a few of those books recently that I I would clear or classify them as kind of dark and scary, but really important or really enlightening in some way. And it kind of helps you, you know, formalize a thought or a concept in your head and realize, hey, here's what's happening, or gives you that kind of the words to speak about it in this kind of fraught time we're in. So same question. But for a movie or a show, is there anything that you think everybody should watch

Scott Demark 45:29

That's harder. I think generally, if I'm watching something, it's for my downtime or own entertainment, and pushing my tastes on the rest of the world, maybe not a great idea. I if I, if I'm, if I'm kind of doing that, I tend to watch cooking shows, actually, Trevor. So, like, that's awesome. I like ugly, delicious. I love David Chang. I like, I like, mind of a chef, creativity behind a chef. So those kinds of things, I'd say more. So, if there was something to like that. I think somebody else should, should watch or listen to I have, I have a real love for Malcolm Gladwell podcast, revisionist history. And so if I thought, you know, my watching habits are not going to going to expand anybody's brain. But I do think that Malcolm's perspective on life is, is really a healthy it's really healthy to step sideways and look at things differently. And I would suggest, if you have never listened to that podcast, go to Episode One, season one, and start there. It's, it's, it's fantastic.

Trevor Freeman 46:39

Yeah, I agree. I'll echo that one. That's one of my favorites. If we were to offer you or not, but if we were to offer you a free round-trip flight, anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Scott Demark 46:50

That's hard. So much flight guilt, you know, I know it's a hard assume that there's carbon offset to it. It's an electric plane.

Trevor Freeman 47:00

That's right, yeah,

Scott Demark 47:01

the we, my family, had a trip planned in 2020 to go to France and Italy. My two boys were kind of at the perfect age to do that. It would have been a really ideal trip. And so, I've still never been to either of those places. And if I had to pick one, probably Italy, I would really like to see Italy, mafuti. I think it would be a fantastic place to go. So probably, probably Italy.

Trevor Freeman 47:25

My favorite trip that I've ever done with my wife and our six-month-old at the time was Italy. It was just phenomenal. It was a fantastic trip. Who's someone that you admire?

Scott Demark 47:36

I have a lot of people, actually, a lot of people in this, in this particular space, like, what would I work in that have brought me here to pick one, though I'd probably say Peter Busby. So, Peter Busby is a mentor, a friend, now a business partner, but, but not earlier in my career. Peter Busby is a kind of a, one of the four fathers, you know, if you will, of green design in Canada. He's an architect, Governor General's Award-winning architect, actually. But I think what I, what I really, appreciate about Peter, and always will, is that he was willing to stand up in his peer group and say, hey, we're not doing this right. And, you know, he did that. He did that in the early 80s, right? Like we're not talking he did it when it cost his business some clients. He did it when professors would speak out against him, and certainly the Canadian Association of architecture was not going to take any blame for the shitty buildings that have been built, right? And he did it. And I remember being at a conference where Peter was getting a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Canadian architects Association, and so he's standing up, and people are all super proud of him. They're talking about his big life. And he kind of belittled them all and said, you’re not doing enough. We're not doing enough like he's still he's still there. He's still taking the blame for where things are, and that things haven't moved fast enough, and that buildings are a massive part of our carbon problem, and probably one of the easier areas to fix. You know, we're talking about electric planes. Well, that's a that's a lot more difficult than it is to recover energy from a factory to heat a community, right? I admire him. I learn things from him all the time. He's got a great book out at the moment, actually, and, yeah, he'd be right up there on my in my top list,

Trevor Freeman 49:54

Awesome. What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?

Scott Demark 50:00

I wish you asked me this before the election. I I'm feeling a little dark. Trevor, I think there needs to be a price on pollution in the world. Needs to be a price on pollution in America, in Canada, and I'm worried about that going away. in light of that, I'm not, I'm not super excited about different technologies at the moment. I think there are technologies that are helping us, there are technologies that are pushing us forward, but there's no like silver bullet. So, you know, a really interesting thing that's coming is kind of this idea that a small nuclear reactor, okay, very interesting idea. You could see its context in both localized electricity production, but all the heat also really good for district entry, okay, so that's an interesting tech. It obviously comes with complications around security and disposal, if you like. There's our nuclear industry has been allowed to drink like it's all complicated. So, I don't see one silver bullet in technology that I'm like, That's the answer. But what I do see, I'll go back to what we were talking about before, is, you know, we had to turn this giant ship of bureaucracy towards new solutions. Okay, that's, that's what we had to do. And now that it's turned and we've got it towards the right course, I'm encouraged by that. I really am. You know, there are champions, and I'll talk about our city. You know, there's champions in the City of Ottawa who want to see this happen as younger people have graduated into roles and planning and other engineering roles there. They've grown up and gone to school in an age where they understand how critical this climate crisis is, and they're starting to be in positions of power and being in decision making. You know, a lot of my career, we're trying to educate people that there was a problem. Now, the people sitting in those chairs, it they understand there's a problem, and what can they do about it? And so I am, I am excited that that the there is a next generation sitting in these seats, making decisions. The bureaucracy the ship is, is almost on course to making this difference. So I do think that's encouraging. We have the technology. We really do. It's not rocket science. We just need to get through the bureaucracy barriers, and we need to find ways to properly finance it.

Trevor Freeman 52:34

Right? I think that's a good place to wrap it up. Scott, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate this conversation and shedding a little bit of light, not just on the technical side of district energy systems, but on the broader context, and as you say, the bureaucracy, the the what is needed to make these things happen and to keep going in that right direction. So thanks a lot for your time. I really appreciate it.

Scott Demark 52:56

Thank you, Trevor, good to see you.

Trevor Freeman 52:57

All right. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

View Details

Will U.S. tariffs disrupt Canada’s energy sector? What is the current state of cross-border electricity trade? How can we strengthen interprovincial connections to secure a sustainable energy future in our country? Host Trevor Freeman summarizes the on and offs of Canada’s electricity trade. Tune in to learn about the complexities and challenges of evolving energy policies, infrastructure, and regulatory landscapes governed by both federal and provincial authorities.

Related links

● Canadian Energy Regulator: https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/index.html

● The Transition Accelerator: https://transitionaccelerator.ca/

● Electrifying Canada: https://electrifyingcanada.ca/

● Canada Electricity Advisory Council: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-sources/canada-electricity-advisory-council

● thinkenergy episode 143 with Quest Canada: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman, this is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and we'll compliment our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another thinkenergy short. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, today we're going to take a look at Canada's electricity trade. You may recall that in my first episode of 2025 we did a look ahead at the year in energy, and we did briefly touch on potential upcoming tariffs, and I highlighted that there is a fair amount of trade and electricity across the border. So, given that we are still on the potential cusp of these tariffs being implemented, I'm recording this on march 3, and March 4 is the date that new tariffs are set to be implemented by the US on Canada, we thought it was probably a good idea to take a look at trade through the lens of electricity, to give you a sense of how this might impact electricity and what the future might hold. So we'll look at the current landscape, the challenges posed by some of these recent policies, and the potential for strengthening interprovincial connections to ensure a resilient and sustainable energy future. So, let's start by establishing the current state of Canada's electricity trade. In short, Canada's electricity grids were designed to serve local demand, rather than looking at a large scale, integrated national grid, for all. We'll get more into this shortly, but it's the main reason why you'll see the majority of Canada's electricity grids at the provincial level are kind of oriented north to south when it comes to interconnections, rather than east to west. They are a stronger trade relationship to meet the higher demand of the United States, rather than between provinces and territories. Canada's electricity trade has long been a cornerstone of the North American energy framework that's governed by both federal and provincial authorities. These cross-border interconnections have facilitated a robust exchange with Canada, exporting around $3.2 billion worth of electricity to the United States in 2023 alone. And yes, that was billion with a B. So, let's talk about cross border trade. The Canadian energy regulator, or CER, oversees electricity exports to the United States, ensuring compliance with market regulations, fair access and impact assessment on our domestic supply. It should be noted that the CER does not regulate electricity imports into Canada. That is the role of provincial Crown corporations or private market participants who decide on the volume of electricity being traded here in Ontario, as we've talked about many times on the show, the IESO, or Independent Electricity System Operator decides on the amount of electricity that is needed in coming in terms of infrastructure, the CER regulates 86 different international power lines that connect Canada's provinces to the US electricity grid in different locations. So, to help you visualize this, you know, imagine a map of North America, starting west to east. We've got British Columbia, which is linked to the US Pacific Northwest grid. Manitoba and parts of Ontario are both connected to the US midcontinent grid. The other part of Ontario and Quebec are connected to the US Eastern grids. And finally, New Brunswick is connected to the US New England grid. So, there are a lot of different connection points across the map. So that gives you a picture of our current trade relationship, so, now let's look at how some of the recent policy shifts may affect that. Canadians will be well aware that the dynamics of international trade are being tested by the recent shift in the US approach to trade policies, and that includes the electricity trade. As I said at the beginning, I'm recording this on march 3, the day before broad, sweeping tariffs are set to be imposed by the United States on Canada, and that will impact electricity potentially, as well. The Trump administration's imposition of tariffs on Canadian imports has introduced a whole layer of uncertainty and tension. In response, Canadian officials have contemplated numerous different measures, including restricting electricity exports to the United States, states like Michigan and in New York or Minnesota who receive a lot of electricity from us. In Ontario, our recently reelected premier Doug Ford has highlighted the significance of these exports and has noted that Canada's electricity has powered 1.5 million American homes just last year, as recently as last month, Premier Ford raised the possibility of charging Americans more for electricity that Ontario sends to the US, and has also announced plans to cut off energy exports to the United States if the Trump administration moves ahead with tariff threats. These developments create a climate of uncertainty, and such trade disputes underscore the vulnerability inherent in our current trade dependent system. That vulnerability has raised calls for Canada to look and invest inward, which brings us to interprovincial connectivity. Let's examine the case for strengthening interprovincial connectivity in Canada, as I said at the top, we don't have a national grid. In fact, Canada's electricity infrastructure, which we've talked about many times, consists of multiple provincial or territorial grids, each governed and regulated by its respective province or territory. They also vary in systems and resources for producing electricity, with some regions having ample access to water resources, hydroelectricity, for example, others relying heavily on nuclear energy, and still, others looking more to fossil fuels, like oil or gas for electricity generation, a more cohesive pan Canadian electricity grid has long been a topic of conversation, even before this current threat of tariffs from the United States. A few years ago, there was renewed interest in the idea of interprovincial connectivity to achieve a 100% net zero electricity system by 2035 and eliminate harmful emissions countrywide by 2050. Basically, utilizing the electricity grid to support decarbonization at the individual customer level. Of course, the federal government has recently relaxed its goal for a net zero electricity system by 2035 mostly due to feasibility concerns, but the goal is still there to achieve Net Zero electricity generation across the entire country, and work has already been done towards that. So, working closely with Natural Resources Canada, the transition accelerator, which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to accelerating the transition to low carbon economy and advancing Canada's 2050 climate target, created an initiative called Electrifying Canada, which was focused on widespread electrification throughout the economy. That initiative brought together a diverse group of stakeholders, including government, indigenous peoples, industry, labor and civil society, to develop a roadmap for the electrification of Canada. This roadmap runs in parallel with the federal government's Electricity Advisory Council, and outlines recommendations to create a pan Canadian electricity grid, including identifying the infrastructure needed, the regulatory and policy changes that are required and the necessary investments needed to make it happen. Given the challenges presented by the United States and the growing discourse around bolstering interprovincial electricity connections, enhancing our domestic grid could offer several different benefits. These could include energy security. So, by reducing reliance on external markets, we can ensure a more stable and self-sufficient energy supply. There's also economic resilience, strengthened interprovincial trade can mitigate the economic impacts of international trade disputes and tariffs. And finally, there are environmental goals, so a cohesive national grid can facilitate the integration of renewable energy sources, aiding in the achievement of our net zero emissions targets. The CERs Canada's energy future 2023 report projects a 27% increase in interprovincial transmission capacity by 2035 under a global net zero scenario. So, we need this interprovincial connectivity in order to meet our net zero targets. It's something that kind of has to happen anyway, or is one of the key strategies in order to make that happen. This expansion would enable more efficient electricity transfers between provinces, allowing us to optimize resource utilization and enhance grid reliability. All the things that we talk about on this show about how to make our grid more efficient and more effective can be enhanced by looking not just at our provincial grids, but at more of a pan Canadian grid. While a National Grid offers many benefits, there are significant challenges to overcome, surprise. Surprise. We talk about this all the time on the show, so let's explore some of these challenges and considerations in order to make interprovincial connections a reality. To start with, the existing infrastructure was primarily designed for localized needs and aligning the diverse regulatory frameworks of each province or territory presents a complex challenge. Additionally, significant investment would be required to develop the necessary transmission lines and related infrastructure. So, it's both a regulatory challenge as well as a physical infrastructure challenge. We just don't have all the transmission lines and interconnections that are required. Here, according to the CER Market Snapshot webpage, electricity transmission lines in the Yukon and Northwest Territories do not actually connect to the larger North American grids or even to each other. And Nunavut doesn't have any transmission lines connecting its communities at all, but rather, each community independently generates and distributes its own electricity. I'll draw your attention back to an episode that I did last October with Gemma Pinchin from Quest Canada. And in that conversation, she highlighted that almost 200,000 Canadians in more than 280 remote communities don't connect to their local electricity grid or natural gas system, and it's not feasible at the moment for them to do so, given how remote they are. So, that presents some challenges as well. At a more macro level, looking at interprovincial framework, in August 2023 Ontario and Quebec announced a 600-megawatt electricity trade agreement, exemplifying the potential for greater interprovincial collaboration. Such initiatives could serve as blueprints for broader efforts to enhance our national grid. Despite these challenges, there is progress being made by investing in our domestic infrastructure and fostering provincial collaborations, Canada can build a resilient, sustainable and self-reliant energy system poised to meet future challenges. The energy transition, as we've talked about before is all encompassing and includes many different strategies. So, while we sometimes talk about the end result that EV or that heat pump that needs to be installed on the show, we also need to look at the more macro level, as how do we actually arrange our energy systems and our provincial grids, and what is the best option for that. So, that wraps up our look at Canada's electricity trade and how the current trade landscape might impact that moving forward. Hopefully you found that interesting. Thanks for tuning in for another think energy short, as always, we'd love to hear from you, and we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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What does Canada do with excess energy? How is it stored today and how will it be stored as the energy industry evolves? Justin Rangooni, CEO of Energy Storage Canada, shares how energy storage supports a sustainable future for Canadians—from enhanced flexibility to affordability, large-scale grids to individual consumer needs. Listen to episode 152 of thinkenergy to learn about ongoing projects and challenges facing the energy storage sector in Canada.

Related links:

• Justin Rangooni on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-rangooni-5063b542/
• Energy Storage Canada: https://www.energystoragecanada.org/
• TC Energy Pump Storage Project: https://www.tcenergy.com/operations/power/pumped-storage-project/
• From Small to Mighty report: https://energyontario.ca/Files/OEA_ESC_From_Small_to_Mighty_Dec_2024.pdf
• Ontario Energy Board: https://www.oeb.ca/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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How can you prepare for the inevitability of a power outage? What role does your utility provider play in restoring power? How are they being proactive about future outages? In this episode of thinkenergy, host Trevor Freeman shines the light on power outages and the strategies used by utilities to manage them. Learn about preventive measures, emergency responses, and the tools Hydro Ottawa uses to restore power quickly and enhance grid resilience. Listen in.

Related links

● Canadian Red Cross Emergency Preparedness Kit: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada/for-home-and-family/get-a-kit

● Hydro Ottawa Outage Centre: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/outage-centre

● Hydro Ottawa Emergency Preparedness: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/emergency-preparedness

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hey everyone, and welcome back, as you heard in the intro, this is a think energy short, so it'll just be me diving into a certain topic that helps round out our understanding of the energy world. Today, we're talking about something that we've all experienced or has affected us in one way or another. At some point power outages. So, a power outage is never fun. Nobody wants to go through that, but as we increasingly electrify our lives, they become more and more impactful when our mode of transportation and our method of heating and cooling our homes relies on electricity, we want that power back as soon as possible. Today, we're going to look at how utilities like Hydro Ottawa manage outages, from prevention to repairs so that we get power back on as soon as possible. Now here in Ottawa, we all know how unpredictable the weather can be. One minute it's a blizzard, the next it's sunny and 15 degrees outside, or vice versa. And over the past few years, we've seen it all from wild wind storms, everybody remembers the derecho, tornados, ice storms, floods, we've kind of run the gamut of weather, and that's going to continue as climate change changes our global weather patterns, we're going to see more and more extreme weather. So, this is a topic that's not going anywhere. It's also not just mother nature that's throwing us curveballs. Sometimes it's a squirrel or another animal that's, you know, causing mischief on our power lines, or a car that takes out a hydro pole, or just equipment reaching the end of its life. Whatever the cause, when the power goes out, all we want to know is one thing, when will it be back on? So today, we'll go behind the scenes a little bit and see how we tackle outages from start to finish. We'll look at the strategies that we use to prevent outages, the priorities that we follow during a storm, and the lessons learned to improve the grid for the future. So, let's dive in. The first topic is prevention. Now we can't predict all outages. For example, if it's animal interference or a car accident, we can't predict that. But, for weather related outages, you might be surprised to know that Hydro, Ottawa has a team monitoring the weather, 24/7. They're kind of like our weather detectives, and they look at forecasts and try to predict potential impacts to the grid related to weather. Even when the skies are clear, however, our crews are working hard to prepare ourselves for things like inclement weather. They're out there, inspecting lines, trimming trees and upgrading equipment. Think of it as giving our entire electrical system a regular health checkup. Speaking of health checkups, trees are a major culprit when it comes to outages, especially here in the Ottawa Valley, where we have so many trees and a lot of forested and wooded areas, which is great, it's why we love this area, but that can interfere with our power lines. So Hydro Ottawa has a team of dedicated arborists who work year-round to keep branches trimmed and clear of power lines. But sometimes there is a storm on the horizon, and that's when things kick into high gear. Our crews are put on standby. We alert our customers through email and text and social media in order to be as prepared as possible and let us respond quickly when an outage does happen. So, during the storm, when the storm hits and the power goes out, what happens then? While restoring power isn't as simple as just flipping a switch. Hydro Ottawa follows a carefully structured plan to ensure safety and that we get the lights back on as quickly as possible. Let's take the example of a major storm that has caused widespread outages across our service territory. Our first job is to investigate the extent of the damage and understand what's actually happened. Where is there damage on our system? Now when it comes to restoration, safety is our number one priority, so we want to address any hazards like downed power lines immediately, as soon as we find out about them, and that's both for the safety of the public and the safety of our crews. Now our crews may be out there even while the storm is still going on, so safety is absolutely paramount, and we ensure that they work safely. The next focus of ours would be critical infrastructure. So, this is things like our own substations and main power lines, the real backbone of our system that provides power to the rest of the city, and then we look at the essential services. So, these would be things like hospitals, water treatment plants, things that our emergency responders need. We then move on to widespread outages. So, our goal is to bring customers back on as soon as possible. And we look for those areas where we can get the largest number of customers back on the quickest. After that, we would move to smaller neighborhoods and smaller clusters, those pockets of outages where there are less customers impacted. And finally, we move on to individual homes and businesses that might be out. Now it's important to note here that if those homes and businesses have sustained damage to their own electrical equipment, so something that is customer owned, that may need to be addressed before we're able to restore power, and the customer needs to work with a licensed electrician to make those repairs before we can turn the power back on. But the good news is is we will work with a customer and help them understand what's required on their side in order for us to restore power safely. Again, I can't stress this enough, we want to make sure we do everything as safe as possible for the customers and for our crews. Throughout this entire process, communication is absolutely critical. So, we want to be communicating with our customers about what's happening on the grid, hopefully giving some insight into when they might expect the power to be back on. To do this, we use outage maps on our website and on our app, text alerts, and social media in order to communicate. Now, it's important to know here that we provide initial restoration times, but those may change once our crew gets on the site and assesses the damage, or as a project progresses and we understand what's required to get that power back on. So, sometimes restoration times can change, and they are dependent on a number of different factors. Can be weather conditions, the location of the outage, how severe the damage is, and what other outages are happening on the grid. During an outage, it's important that you as the customer also stay safe. So, in the winter, stay in your home as long as it's safe and warm and you have food and water. The city during widespread outages, or if an emergency is declared, may open emergency warming centers or cooling centers during the summer months. And you can get more information on that by listening to local broadcasts, by looking at city resources and also checking out Hydro Ottawa resources. One thing I can say is that during a storm and while there's a power outage, our crews will be at work, 24/7, until power is restored to every customer. Okay. So, the storm is over and the power is restored, so the work stops there, right? Wrong. After every storm, we look for lessons learned to improve our response and improve the grid's resiliency. So, we look at outage data, response times, the repair efforts, to really refine our strategies and determine where improvements can be made. One question that we often get, especially after storms, is, why not just put all the power lines underground to prevent storm related outages? While that may sound like a great idea, the reality is that underground systems are significantly more expensive, sometimes up to 11 times the cost of overhead lines. So, undergrounding may work in some cases, it's definitely not a one size fits all fix. The last section to talk about is how to be prepared power outages, unfortunately, will happen. We can't be 100% sure that we can prevent them. So how can you make sure you're prepared? Well, the Canadian Red Cross recommends having an emergency kit ready with enough supplies to be self-sufficient for at least 72 hours. Think about things like food, water, medications, flashlights, a battery powered radio, anything you might need to be self-sufficient for that 72-hour period. There are lots more tips that you can find on this on Hydro Ottawa's website. So have a look. That wraps up today's episode. We've covered a number of different things, from before storm to after storm and continuous improvement. Just remember that you can stay informed by visiting Hydro Ottawa's outage map on our website or on our mobile app. You can follow us on social media and make sure you sign up for outage alerts. Thanks for tuning in to a think energy short and join us next time for another guest interview. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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Canada's building sector accounts for 30-40% of the nation's energy use. Bryan Fannigan from the Building Decarbonization Alliance joins thinkenergy to share how the sector can align with Canada's emission reduction goals. From policies and grid impact studies to strategies helping steer towards a net-zero status by 2050. Listen in to learn about the practical challenges with decarbonizing existing infrastructures and innovative approaches to support the transition to more sustainable building practices.

Related links

• Bryan Flannigan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanflannigan/
• Building Decarbonization Alliance: https://buildingdecarbonization.ca/
• The Transition Accelerator: https://transitionaccelerator.ca/
• Concordia Plan/Net Zero: https://www.concordia.ca/sustainability/net-zero.html
• The Canada Green Building Strategy: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/transparency/reporting-and-accountability/plans-and-performance-reports/departmental-strategies/the-canada-green-buildings-strategy-transforming-canadas-buildings-sector-for-net-zer/26065
• ITER fusion energy project: https://www.iter.org/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

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Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

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Transcript

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Hi. Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrooottawa.com.

Hi everyone. Welcome back. You really can't overstate the importance of buildings in our lives. We eat, sleep, work, learn and socialize in buildings, among many, many other things, a huge percentage of our lives takes place inside buildings. In fact, most of us probably have to make a conscious effort to actually spend time outside of buildings. I know that I try to make a point of spending time outside every day, and I have to be conscious about it, because it might not otherwise happen, and as a result of that, centrality in our lives, buildings are major users of energy. Some estimates say that around 30 to 40% of energy use in Canada is associated with buildings, and they're also a major source of greenhouse gas emissions. So around maybe 18% or so in Canada, that means that the buildings themselves and the way we build them, the way we heat them, the way we use them, are an important part of our efforts to decarbonize and to further the ongoing energy transition. Supporting this effort is the main goal of the building decarbonization Alliance. Spun out of the transition accelerator, the building decarbonization Alliance is a nonpartisan coalition that works to inspire and inform industry and government leadership, accelerate market transformation and really get the building sector on track to meet Canada's emission reduction goals. They focus on convening conversations, conducting analysis and identifying some of the barriers to building decarbonization, and then working with partners to overcome them. And I think that's a really important part. Joining me today as my guest is Brian Flannagan, who's the executive director of the building decarbonization Alliance. Brian brings more than three decades of leadership and consulting experience all focused around reducing emissions and improving the energy efficiency of the built environment. Prior to joining the organization, he's played leadership roles across a number of different leading energy and environmental consulting firms. He spent time working with the Federation of Canadian municipalities and helped launch the Green Municipal Fund. Brian Flannagan, welcome to the show.

Brian Flannagan 02:47

Thanks for having me. Trevor, this is great.

Trevor Freeman 02:50

So why don't we start kind of right with the basics? Can you give us an overview of the building decarbonization Alliance and the work that you are doing alongside your members?

Brian Flannagan 03:00

Yeah, thanks. Well, you know, as you said at the top of the hour, without kind of repeating the background or there, we're a nonpartisan, not for profit organization whose goal it is to really advance sort of market transformation, thinking about it from the perspective of, you know, creating a prosperous economy for Canada, having buildings that are a place where people want to invest, and the long-term goal is that we got to get them. Get to net zero. Global factors dictate that if we don't act on that, we're going to get left behind. And so, for those purposes, we want to bring the market along and align it toward this goal. And so, this alliance that we have is just that we have partner organizations who support this vision to have the building sector decarbonize between now and 2050 to meet those objectives that are set nationally and internationally, for that matter, and we work with those partners to sort of align the narratives around this and to put in place in the long term, the tools and policies that we need to support that. So, our main approach is really to convene those stakeholders around the issues that we see, to tackle some of the sticky narratives that are there. You know, any market transformation involves incumbents that have lots of good reason to maintain the status quo. So that's a feature of a system that we have to acknowledge, and it's something that we recognize we have to adjust those narratives to really advance, advance the common objective, right? And so, we work with that kind of vision, with our stakeholders, to really try to overcome, identify and overcome the barriers to getting to that goal. We kind of focus on a couple of key areas given, you know, the ability decarbonization space, the ecosystem is vast. Lots of market actors already out there, lots of other not for profits, lots of other organizations that are working really, really hard to advance this as well. And so, we tend to focus on kind of four main areas, making sure that there's policy support at various levels of government, and understanding which policies might be effective and which ones might be less so, and trying to advance the ones that. High leverage looking at the grid impacts of electrifying buildings, because it's undeniable that if you switch from fossil combustion of fossil fuels to electricity, you require a clean electricity system that has to have the capacity and be robust enough to support that. So, we want to be clear about that. We want to really address that in a cogent sort of way, and then really mobilizing and activating the sector to implement these changes and to find the solutions, because many of the solutions are at the intersection of different subsets of the of the sector, whether it's banking and finance or whether it's development community or the utilities, every market actor has a role to play to find solutions. Is very rarely one sub sector that can really act to, you know, to overcome a barrier. And so, we try to work at the intersection of these different groups. And by convening the players, we can roll up our sleeves and kind of get to that. And then, last but not least, you know, this is a very complex sort of question in terms of, how do we get there? What are the pathways? It kind of reminds me of nutrition, medicine, things like that, where, you know, at one instance, it's great to eat eggs, and another instance, terrible to eat eggs, and then it's good. To eat eggs. And then it's good to eat eggs again, because the evidence is shifting right, and we have to follow the evidence. We have to understand that the systems are complex and that various investments in the grid will alter the landscape. And so, we're working really hard to increase the analytical capacity of the sector, to model and to be able to understand how this will really play out when you have exponential sort of technological advancement coming to play. And you know, different investments and different dynamics that are bearing out as the sector decarbonizes, which is, it's really complex, and so we need better tools to be able to grapple with that. So those are the four sort of main areas, and it's a heavy lift. We arrive on the scene with great humility, recognizing that we stand on the shoulder of many, many other organizations who've come into the space trying to take a slightly different approach by bringing all the players together and trying to find some common understanding of how we how we get this done. You know, we have to do something different. We've been doing energy efficiency for four decades, give or take with the programming that we've had, and it's been very effective. I don't think there's any more old T 12 light bulbs anywhere that worked. That's great, but we need to do something different now to get fossil fuels out of the buildings for heating purposes, right? That's the goal.

Trevor Freeman 07:18

I'm glad you brought up the complexity side of things. I think when we look at buildings and decarbonizing buildings at first blush, you can think, Okay, well, change out systems. And you know, there are carbon intensive systems and low carbon systems, and obviously we need the latter, but getting those systems in our buildings, and getting buildings that work well with those systems, and getting tenants that interact with those systems, well, is that complex kind of quagmire? And so really glad you brought that up, and we'll probably talk more about that as we go. I do want to also highlight you mentioned kind of working with other organizations and partners, and specifically, I know you guys are affiliated with but somewhat unique from the transition accelerator. So, talk a little bit about the transition accelerator and how your work with them. Sort of overlaps, but is unique.

Brian Flannagan 08:09

Yeah, absolutely. Well, so we're, we are housed within the transition accelerator. We are basically a branded initiative of the transition accelerator. You know, we could stand alone as our own, not for profit and be separately incorporated, but from an efficiency and a sort of effectiveness perspective, the decision kind of was made to stay within the transition accelerator as an organization and so I think it's very effective, because that allows us to leverage, you know, the communications, knowledge mobilization and broader infrastructure for HR and things Like that of the transition accelerator. So, the transition accelerator, is a Canadian not for profit as well, and its focus is very similar to the BDS focus. However, it's elevated to the to an economy wide level. And so, the transition accelerator is interested in finding pathways to net zero for all sectors of the economy. So, I think transportation, the electricity system itself, decarbonizing the grid, looking at low carbon and Net Zero fuels and how those might impact other sectors, heavy industry and aviation and transportation sectors, as well as looking broadly at the overall state of what is the future economy going to look like. The whole point of this is to position Canada internationally as a global leader in this transition, recognizing that other nations are acting, and we have a competitive position to play. And that has to happen by looking across all the different sectors. And so, the objective is really to set that 2050 vision, identify the pathways for the different sectors of the economy. Buildings are one of which and then to kind of advance the whole thing along recognizing as well. I guess what's really important in all of that is that there's a huge interaction between the different sub sectors, right? So, transportation and buildings are a great example. You know, if everybody electrifies EVs, there's an immediate impact on how we electrify the heating systems in the buildings, and then it has a huge impact on the grid immediately as well. And so. The intent with the transition accelerator as an umbrella organization housing all of these activities, is that we capture those dynamics. And when I talked about the analytical capacity, you know, the models that we're building, the end use models for each of the sub sectors, the ideas that they eventually connect, and they that they are able to have a whole of economy sort of flavor to them. And so, it's been a very, very effective relationship. I think it seems to work well, and that vision and idea seems to be materializing as we get going. It's been two years so far, and I can say that it's been just a fascinating journey to be exposed to those other sector dynamics as well.

Trevor Freeman 10:36

Yeah, I know on this show, we talk a lot about the different parts of, as you said, all of society that need to be decarbonized. Obviously, buildings kind of comes to the forefront often and so specifically around buildings talk us through this maybe kind of a basic question, but, you know, help our listeners understand. Why are buildings so important? Why is the decarbonization of our built environments so important when it comes to decarbonizing all of society?

Brian Flannagan 11:05

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the, that's the crux of the question, right? Well, there's a bunch of reasons. I mean, if you think about it, the building, this is where we live, right? These are our homes. These are, this is where we go to work. This is our place as a business. From an economic perspective, organizations arrive in jurisdictions for the purposes of meeting their overall objectives, and if you require energy intensive sort of production, or if you want to have a big workforce, you want to house your workforce in buildings that align with your objectives. And increasingly, those objectives feature a low carbon kind of future, right? And so just from that perspective, it's important for us to kind of get aligned with the global trend toward this, to make sure that we have the investments that we need and that we want to attract, and we want to have places where people can live that are aligned with those kinds of values. But from an emissions perspective, it's hard to kind of overstate how important this sector actually winds up being the building sector emits about 90 megatons, give or take, of direct scope one emissions. And if you factor in the grid emissions, that result from being buildings being connected. So, the grids across Canada, it's about 120 megatons. There's digits there that we could go into. But to put it into context, that's about the same as all of the vehicles on the road. So, when we think about how important it is to electrify the fleet of vehicles that we're all driving, the building sector is the same. It's the same level of importance. And if we think about all of the work that we've done to decarbonize our electricity system over the years, eliminating coal plants and those kinds of initiatives that we that we hear, are in the news recently, the building sector emits about twice as much as all of that. And so, the context is that buildings are pretty vast in terms of the overall emissions, and when we think about where those emissions come from, ultimately, it's combustion of fossil fuels for heating our buildings. We're in a cold climate in Canada, case, a lot of energy to heat buildings, and because of the abundance of the resource and a bunch of policy decisions that have been made decades ago, you know, we're in a situation where we've got an abundant and relatively inexpensive source of fossil fuel to heat our buildings. It's about 1500 petajoules, I guess, give or take. And ultimately, we need to move to eliminate that over time, or to largely eliminate it. I mean, I think there's always going to be a bit left in the system. There's, you know, it's, it's a very complex and daunting task, because the building sector itself is very diverse. The buildings last a really long time. It's not like, you know, technology change, where you have, if you want to change a phone, you can upgrade it from one year to the next. It's small. It fits in your pocket. It's easy to manage, but buildings are constructed to last hundreds, 100 years. 50 years is the typical lifespan. But, you know, we have lots of buildings that are very, very old, and it's a slow kind of system to turn over. It's a slow inventory to turn over. So, it's a really big challenge, a lot of a lot of emissions from the sector. And so, it rises to the level of really needing close attention and a different approach than what we've been taking in the past.

Trevor Freeman 14:04

Yeah, and one of the things I like about focusing on the building sector is it's one of those areas where efforts to decarbonize, efforts to improve the way we use energy in our buildings, obviously have some carbon impact, but that's not the only benefit that they have. There are sort of other ancillary benefits that that building owners and tenants can realize as a building goes through a decarbonization process. Talk to us a little bit about some of those other benefits and why a decarbonized building is a better building to be in.

Brian Flannagan 14:39

Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess there's, there's a couple of things. I'll take a step back from it and talk about retrofits and deep retrofits versus regular retrofits, you know, and what it winds up looking like in terms of benefit streams. We've, I think, in the past 40 years or so. I think since the since the 80s, we've been doing retrofits that are ostensibly about reducing operating cost. Ostensibly about making sure that we don't have to build out our energy systems bigger than they need to be. It's always about the avoided cost of energy. That's the way our incentive programs have been set up. And so, we've had lots of projects over the years that make buildings more efficient at consuming the energy that they do consume, which is a really important objective. And so, you get, as I mentioned, all the lighting projects that we've done, and we've done three waves of lighting projects, different fluorescent technologies, and then CFL technologies, and then now led technologies. And those are kind of project-by-project retrofits that happen because the building owner says, well, wow, if I do that, I'm going to reduce my utility costs, and I'm also probably going to save maintenance costs, like LED lighting technology really reduces the maintenance costs associated with taking care of the light bulbs. It's a cost reduction exercise, right? What's different about decarbonization is that we don't really have those cost signals, those pricing signals, are just not the same. It's not the same dynamic anymore. And so, you have to bring into play long term energy and social and governance paradigms. You have to bring in long term pricing signals, long term risk. You have to bring in long term market decision making in terms of the global factors that we were talking about earlier, right? And so, you know, it requires a bit of a vision, and it requires acting on the policy environment that's in place. And in order to really make those projects work, you have to take a much longer-term view. You have to look at the overall state of the capital renewal of the building. You have to look at all of the different systems at the of the building at once. And that's where we get into the term a deep retrofit, right? And so those kinds of projects can yield tremendous benefits when they're undertaken correctly and over time, in an individual building or inner portfolio of buildings, and so we get this bundling effect of things happening all at once to really make the space more comfortable at the end of the day, though, what, what the whole objective needs to be, is just eliminating the fossil fuel combustion. And it happens that when you do that at the same time as doing some other things like envelope work or fenestration, or, you know, better, control systems or demand response kind of technologies, then you get this sort of convergence of factors. And so, you know, we to get to the part about the benefits there. We definitely see long term operating cost savings when, when people switch to heat pump technologies, the heat pump is an incredibly efficient it is an energy efficiency measure itself. It's three times, give or take, more efficient than other approaches. And so, you get that long, long term operating cost savings in most in most of the country. The prices vary across the country, but you do get those obviously, if you're taking that approach and you're managing your portfolio with that your portfolio or your home with that longer term vision, you're getting capital renewal, and you're having maintenance and reliability improvements, and we think that it really improves on the value of the asset over time. It's an area that requires further study, actually, because we don't really know how much more value is baked in. There just haven't been that much track record in Canada of having these kinds of retrofits take place, but the so-called green premium, we think, is there as a real benefit to taking this kind of an approach. And notwithstanding that you know, you're renewing all your mechanical systems, you're taking measures to update the envelope and things, you're going to have a more comfortable, better controlled environment. If you're if you're a commercial building owner that's tenanted, your tenants are going to feel more comfortable. The control of the facility can have less complaints and all this kind of thing. If you're a homeowner, you're going to be in a modern, comfortable home that has a heating system. I mean, fossil combustion systems tend to come on and blow really hot, whereas heat pumps tend to stay kind of fully loaded and steady and have this comfortable people report that it's just a much more comfortable kind of system. And I think, you know, over time, people are going to start to see that this is the way a house should be. We're kind of not there yet. The sex appeal of all of this, in terms of the mindset of especially homeowners, I just don't think is there yet. But we're trying really hard to get to a spot where people look at those, you know, retrofitted systems and those modern systems as being sort of the way that it's supposed to be, and this is how comfortable a home is supposed to feel, right? So those benefits are all there, but I think, as I mentioned, what's less clear is, you know, for a commercial building owner, what exactly is the real ROI to fully embrace this approach? I think those are still areas of further study, and the straight-line connection between those things. I wish it was more, a little bit more clear, but we're working on it. That's a part of a study that we're trying to do to really elucidate those types of benefits as well.

Trevor Freeman 19:31

Yeah. Well, I think that's again, to go back to your first answer of the building the analytical capability of the sector to really understand these benefits that I think we intuitively feel are there, but we need the data to back that up, and we need to be able to quantify it, and I think that's really important to tell those stories to be able to help building owners, help homeowners, help the folks that are making decisions, build the case, to really be able to. Say, Yeah, this is the smart move. It's smart to move in this direction. So, it's great to see that you guys are working on that absolutely. So, you know, we've talked through in the last little bit here, some of the reasons why it is so important to decarbonize our building sector. We've talked through some of the benefits of decarbonizing that building sector. But to your earlier point, we're not there yet. We haven't seen massive steps in this direction. There are clearly barriers to this. There are sort of reasons why building owners might hold back or wait or sort of say, hey, not this time around. I'll do it next time. What are some of those barriers that you've come across in the building sector that kind of get in the way of folks making the decision to decarbonize?

Brian Flannagan 20:43

Yeah, well, that's interesting. You know, there's the framing of the question itself. Is, there's a lot of benefits. It really makes a lot of sense. But why isn't it really happening, right? And the reason for our existence, if this was easy or obvious or self-evident, we wouldn't need organizations like ourselves and you and I wouldn't have to, you know, ruminate and put this information out into the world, it is difficult, and what's promising and what's interesting, before I get into barriers, is that there's a lot of instances where this actually really does make sense, you know, and we don't, I don't know that we necessarily publicize or talk about it enough, but you know, if you're on fuel oil, if you're if you're on the East Coast, where there's a lot of fuel oil still in the system, and your home is heated with fuel oil, it absolutely makes sense to switch out to a heat pump. Now, you know there's a first cost consideration that needs to be born, but thankfully, there are programs that really support overcoming those first cost barriers, but your operating cost savings will be impactful from an affordability perspective. It makes total sense to do it today. And so, anybody that's currently heating with fuel oil should really look at that business case for them personally and their own personal economics. But in most places in the country, if you're on fuel oil, it makes sense to switch right now. You know another case that makes a lot of sense is if you're on electric resistance heating. Many of us are in Quebec. I'm located in Quebec, you reduce your electricity consumption by about two thirds, you're gonna save on your electricity bill. And you know, to boot, you're probably gonna wind up with cooling that you don't already have on. So, there's a real added benefit of having summer cooling, which increasingly a lot of us need, right? And so, there's a lot of times where it’s kind of really does make sense if a homeowner has an existing gas furnace that's aging, and they don't have air conditioning now, and they're finding that the summers are a little bit warm, and they need to replace their furnace. I mean, that's a lot of ifs if this, but I think a lot of people are actually in that situation. If you're in southern Ontario and you need to replace your aging gas furnace, switching to a heat pump for the air conditioning part of it in a hybrid system. It totally makes sense to do you're going to buy the air conditioning unit anyway. You're going to have couple of tons of cooling in your in your building, in your home. You may as well make that a heat pump and run it in the spring and in the fall to offset some of your gas bill. Right? And so, there are instances where it really does actually make sense, but you'll notice that my statements are sort of couched in a lot of if this, if that feels like which comes back to the complexity. That's a hard message to sell to homeowners. Contractors have to be on it. Contractors have to be making these recommendations. And the system is not quite there yet where everybody has this aligned narrative about where it makes sense to do it. So those are the things that I think are making up, making it hopeful. You know, we see, also see university campuses for altruistic sort of long-term vision reasons. We want to be a test bed. We want to be a leader. We want to be example. We want to have our students understand what this new global dynamic is going to be. So, we see, you know, universities like Concordia with a plan for Net Zero to be a net zero campus by 2040 you know, does that, is there an economic reason for that? Like, I think it'd be hard to make a financial case that those investments make sense on their own merit, but it's backed by this real vision to have leadership. And so, the budgets and the financial considerations, those constraints are loosened to allow for that vision to take place. And we see that with municipal governments too, you know, they have a long-term view about their assets, and about community energy planning and those kinds of things. And so, there's lots of reasons why, where it does make sense and where movement is happening, you know, but outside of those kinds of obvious cases, I would say that the primary barrier is ultimately still a financial one. If you look at the different considerations to go into replacing your heating, replacing fossil fuel combustion with heat pump technology, or electric all electric, non-emitting technologies. It's expensive. You know, the first cost is high. And if you, many of us now in the space have gone through the exercise of getting contractor quotes and understanding what the cost of doing it is, the upfront cost can be pretty high relative to just replacing with the status quo. And so that's a real barrier for a lot of Canadians, particularly in the current environment that we're in. You know, affordability, inflation, the pocketbook issues have been at the fore, and so overcoming that initial sort of wait now what? How much is it going to cost? It's a real. Concern. And that's one of the approaches at the BDA is really to try, like, we really can't sugar coat that. We have to actually just get to work out what it's going to take to bring that first cost down. So, things like getting to scale and, you know, having the technologies kind of advance, and having products come in that are less expensive in the marketplace to the scale is just really important.

Trevor Freeman 25:19

If I could jump in that that getting those costs down, is that just a matter of time, or is there something that you in your work, or we in sort of more broadly in society, can do to sort of push that faster, to get those costs down quicker?

Brian Flannagan 25:34

Well, I think accelerating the transformation is the idea. I mean, that's the global statement. So, there's a certain rate at which this might scale, and it's kind of going to be painfully slow. And getting the cost down will be painfully slow. The idea of accelerating it, by putting in place policies, and by aligning all of our kind of narratives, and having people moving toward this objective in a more everybody rowing in at the same time, I think, is the idea accelerating that and bringing it in faster will help us to get to that point. It's an extremely simplified thing to say, but ultimately, that's what we have to do, right? And there's certain things that just are kind of confounding. You know, we sell a lot of air conditioning units. I think it's about 400k by our last estimate. I'm not sure about that, that exact spec, but I think it's about 400,000 air conditioning units in Canada every year. The cost difference to make those heat pumps, from a technology perspective, is the reversing valve in that piece of equipment. It's a couple 100 bucks. We've talked to lots of our manufacturer partners about sort of what this would look like if we weren't buying air conditioners anymore, and instead, we're just putting in heat pumps. So, the incremental cost there's actually quite low. We could probably have a setup where everybody's buying heat pumps instead of air conditioning units for their summer cooling requirements. And then what happens when you do that? Suddenly, you've got 400,000 more heat pumps coming into the market, and you've got 400,000 more installations happening that are heat pumps instead of air conditioning so people are getting used to it, contractors are getting used to it. And those kinds of things can kind of ratchet it up and make a step change, you know. So, I think advancing and getting to scale involves kind of deploying those types of things where there's high leverage and where it's an easier case, and it's kind of some of what the BDA is trying to do is find those things that have this incremental leverage point that really gives us a step change to advance the market transformation in a way that was a little bit faster than it otherwise would be, right? So that's, that's the first cost barrier is, is one, and it's very real. I would hasten to add that in some instances, the buildings also require changes. You know, you have buildings that have a certain electrical configuration for the capacity that is required with the fossil fuel heating system if you're going to add electric capacity, that could necessitate panel upgrades and other service upgrades to the facility. So those costs are also really real, and there's lots of policies, and there's technical standards associated with that that need a close look so that practitioners in the space have clear guidance on when those things are required and not required. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't say the word there yet, in terms of that consistency of approach and consensus on how to do that. But those factors are very real. Those are some of the barriers on the first cost notwithstanding that on the operating cost side, it's, it's also complex, because across the country we have vastly different electricity and natural gas rates owing to the different configurations of the energy systems in each of the provinces, you know. So, we've got provinces like in Alberta, where natural gas costs are extremely low and electricity costs are relatively higher than, you know, next door in British Columbia, the rates are just closer in British closer together in British Columbia. And so, when you're contemplating a switch from one to the other, the gap just isn't as far to jump across. And so those dynamics play out across the country in very real ways. So as a homeowner or as a business owner, the economic drivers are just very different. And so, it's challenging because you can't just make a generalized statement to say, yes, it's less expensive to do this without also adding, if you happen to be in Quebec, it's not true in Alberta, right? So often what we get is confounding messages where people say, well, hang on a second. You said it was affordable, but I'm in Calgary, so it's affordable. Like, yeah, you're right. It's not yet affordable there, and we have to work to address, you know, those are all nuances in the statements that we make that that causes to have to really dig in and differentiate, sort of the different scenarios under which it's beneficial. But that barrier is, is a very real one, and maybe this is the last one that I would add, is that for building owner or portfolio buildings, or for just a homeowner, we just don't have the policy drivers that really align around this idea. You know, the urgency in the sense that this, that there's a movement toward getting this done by having policies at the municipal, provincial and federal level, kind of aligned toward this objective. So, if you look at the different the patchwork of sort of political leanings across the country, there just doesn't seem to be a strong alignment. And so, if you're if you're trying to manage the long-term sort of investments that you're making in a building portfolio, you'd kind of be forgiven for saying, well, wait a minute, this program was in place, or this policy was in place, and now it's not in place. And you know, the carbon tax is a great example of that recently, where you were just seeing the erosion of that idea as a long-term driver to investments. And now, with the current political environment that we're in, it's really just an open question, what is going to happen to the tax at all? And so, from a business perspective, I think that represents a real sort of that uncertainty and policy direction is also a big barrier that we need to we need to get to grip with.

Trevor Freeman 30:44

That's a great way to transition into this next question that I've got for you. So last year, it's 2025, when we're recording this. So, I can say last year now, you guys released a jurisdictional scan on I kind of think, like policy and drivers around building heating decarbonization. So, I want to dive into that a little bit. Let's start by having you talk through some of the key findings of that report. What did you find when you looked across sort of jurisdictions about what's happening with building heating decarbonization?

Brian Flannagan 31:15

Yeah. Well, what's interesting to stand back from for a second is that. So, this report is a jurisdictional scan, and the intent is really to provide a roundup of the various the ways that the various actors at different levels in the policy landscape implement conditions that ultimately reduce emissions in our buildings. Buildings, it's important to note, are largely a provincial jurisdiction. You know, the building codes, the development processes, a lot of the regulatory framework that they operate within the utility framework. So, all the utilities that the buildings are connected to are generally a provincial policy question. And so, when you when you look at what are the policies that are in place, you would expect that provincial policy would would have to lead the way, because buildings are primarily a provincial jurisdiction. Municipal governments have a big role to play when you think of all of the zoning and the bylaws that apply and the development requirements that apply at a municipal level. So, I mean, municipalities actually have quite a lot of power in with respect to buildings, but they are a subset of provincial governments and have to operate sort of at the best of the provincial requirements. And then when you think about the federal level, federal level really doesn't have a whole lot of jurisdictions on buildings. They can set equipment standards, and they can set environmental regulations through the environmental act, but so when you have to kind of stand back from it, and our goal with the report was to say, well, how does this all play it? What does it actually wind up looking like in terms of decarbonization policies? And what we can kind of look at is, how do you actually implement a policy that would reduce emissions? Well, you can focus on the energy source itself, and say, you’re not allowed to have gas in your building. So, this is like a gas band. This is a pretty heavy stick that you would wield, which, which is one way to do it. You can focus on the equipment and say, hey, you're not allowed to have an oil system anymore. So, you're not focusing on the energy source, but you're focusing on the piece of technology itself. You can focus on the energy performance and say, you're building, given the size of your building, or the shape of your building, or what the building is for your building shouldn't use this much energy, or should use less than this much energy. So, you can put a line in the sand there, or you can focus on the emissions and say, similarly, for that size and shape of building, or type of building, your building shouldn't emit more than a certain amount. And what, what our findings are is that it's sort of all of the above out there, you know. And at the municipal level, we see quite a lot of action of different municipalities trying on different sort of approaches for size, and there's no clear trend as to which of those particular mechanisms seems to have favor. It's sort of a bit of a bit of a mix in terms of all of that. But at the highest level, you know, we have the federal government sort of setting a context, or setting the stage with national model energy codes, there's a commitment for them to release an emission-based code. And that's a welcome sort of direction. It's been in the works for quite a while. We have policy in terms of investments for, you know, low-income retrofits, and we have loan programs and those kinds of things that continue to be on the scene with the green building strategy, which is also welcome and really necessary. Actually, when you think about the kind of context that we're in around affordability, we also see some commitment to look at the idea of the equipment and regulating. There's a commitment to put in place a framework to look at regulating some of the equipment. So, there's a little bit of distance in terms of the direct action there, but at least there's some acknowledgement that the federal order can begin influencing the scene I mentioned at the provincial level, that you know, there's a certain that's where the jurisdiction really is for buildings, and this is where we kind of see quite an absence of real progressive policy. What we see in British Columbia, quite a lot of activity, and Quebec, quite a lot of activity, and Ontario, a couple of measures, most notably, I guess, the requirement to report on building energy. So, this is the idea of looking at the energy performance of the buildings. But outside of those three jurisdictions, we don't really see a lot of progressive policy to really act on the idea of carbon emissions directly from buildings. And then at the municipal level, we see in Ontario, the City of Toronto is trying to, is proposing to look at building performance standards, which would be a sort of an energy and emission sort of threshold mechanism. But then in British Columbia and Quebec, we see just a lot more activity, many more municipalities within those jurisdictions trying on different mechanisms for size. We have, like in Quebec, we have Laval in Montreal and Prevost and regional governments as well. So, the Metropolitan Community of Montreal putting in place various tools to try to curb emissions. And in in British Columbia, there's just way more activity. There's a different sort of setup there in terms of what municipalities are and aren't allowed to do. And so, we see like there's Saanich in Vancouver and North Vancouver and Victoria Whistler, all of these municipalities are putting in place various tools to try to direct what the future should hold in terms of building emissions, whether for new construction or for existing buildings. And notably, we also see some interesting, just interesting kind of mechanisms, like in in British Columbia, flight adjustment on taxation, tax relief for heat pump technologies, which isn't it's not a regulatory sort of approach in the true sense of that. But it's an economic lever that I think can be, can be helpful and sort of send the right cumulative signals to allow market actors to kind of act.

Trevor Freeman 36:50

I think, I mean great answer. Thanks for that, Brian. It really does highlight kind of a theme, I guess, if you will, that comes up on the show often of there is no one solution, and you can take that statement and apply it to any part of the decarbonization ecosphere that you want. There's, there's no blueprint for how we're going to do this. It's going to be sort of a mix of a bunch of different policies and strategies and, you know, carrots and sticks and levers and whatever analogy you want to use that we're going to need. And it's interesting to see, as you highlighted different jurisdictions, different parts of the country, are at different spots, and some, you know, further down that journey than others, for different reasons. And again, coming back to your comment about building that analytical capability to really understand what is working and why, and is it, is it specific to this region or this, you know, whatever climate region or economic region, that that policy or that structure works, or is that something that can be applied across a broader swath of the economy or our society? So really interesting. I'm going to cherry pick something here and dive in and say, you know, we talked a little bit about heat pumps. So, heat pumps, obviously, are a super important technology for decarbonizing some aspects of building heating, specifically on the smaller scale. So residential homes are a great example. We really need to see more heat pumps that's going to be one of the main ways that we decarbonize home heating, looking at, sort of what's happening across the country at the various different levels of jurisdiction. Are there specific frameworks or strategies that you think are really essential to support heat pump adoption as an example that we can sort of look at?

Brian Flannagan 38:39

I mean, I think, I think your, your lead into the question is actually the answer that I would have given you know, there is, there just isn't one sort of tool or approach that will universally drive this thing, certainly not when you talk at a national level. A lot of the discourse that we have internally at the BDA is that this is a regional issue. You know, it really is a, I think, at the end of the day, municipal by municipal approach to things, given the local conditions. And when we, you know, we talked about some of the barriers earlier around pricing. So notionally, anybody that's in a jurisdiction with provincial level utility like British Columbia or Quebec has the same pricing, right? But in Ontario, that's not the case. Like local distribution companies have different pricing structures. Just depends on if you're in Ottawa or Kingston, Cornwall or Toronto, it's just the pricing is just different. Now we have gas utilities that are more uniform across Ontario, so that pricing is similar. So, it really winds up being a regional question. And if I said, you know, Trevor, I want to I want to call a contractor and I live in Hamilton, that's a different question than saying, I want to call a contractor and I live in Saskatoon. Is the HVAC industry the same in both of those places? It's just not like the. Capacity of the industry to influence your decision and the knowledge that they have. And by the way, Saskatoon is a heck of a lot colder, right? So, the question of, you know, will this, will this heat pump actually work for me in my climate up in Saskatoon, is a different question than if you're sitting in Windsor, where your cooling load is probably more of a concern these days, right? And so, we have to, I think we have to get away from the idea that nationally, there's going to be one sort of thing that will really wind up driving the change the electricity system and the gas system. The energy systems in each of the jurisdictions are so different, and the local constraints on labor force, the local affordability considerations with the economics of a given industry, if you're in Alberta or if you're in Newfoundland, the socioeconomics are just very different. The affordability questions are more or less pressing across the country, and so I think there isn't one sort of tool or policy that could rule them all. We need a sort of a wide range of different options to look at that recognize those local and regional kind of considerations. And interestingly enough, going back to the transition accelerator and the kind of approach that we take, we actually have a different vertical. We call them verticals. So, the building vertical is one, but we have a different vertical called regional pathways, where we have a whole other team that's just out meeting with jurisdictions at a regional level to try to understand what exactly are those local constraints that impact on the different economic sectors, buildings being one of them, and we tap into that kind of stream all the time. I mean, that said, I don't think you'll let me get away without providing some kind of answer. I do. I do. I do. Really think that the ways that the utility systems are regulated are a big deal. You know, right now, I think it's fairly safe to say that we live in a utility regulatory environment that was geared to accelerate the expansion of the gas system several decades ago, and the pricing and how connections are made, and how that's reflected on the rate base versus the developer. There's a lot of things that are kind of baked in that where it's not really a level playing field. I think equalizing some of those policies across the country would be extremely helpful. I mentioned earlier that our past sort of energy efficiency retrofit environment has been advanced mostly on the idea that we want to avoid the cost of adding new generation. Well, clearly, if we're talking about electrifying our buildings, adding new generation is a given. We have to do that. And so obviously that paradigm doesn't work when we're talking about fuel switching rather than energy efficiency. And so, we need to have that regulatory space around utilities take a different approach to just looking at the avoided costs. And we see this. This is happening, but it's just it's painfully slow, because those sectors are cautious by definition, and they need to be. But we have to have a new set of programs and a new sort of set of economic tests and tool boxes that allow incentives to start flowing for these kinds of retrofit projects based on a new sort of set of business-as-usual scenarios. You know, if we decarbonize only with air source heat pumps, it's going to lead to a certain set of costs and certain set of investments. If we decarbonize with more ground source heat pumps, it's a different set. And there's a difference there in terms of the price and impact on the energy system and rate payers. And so, capturing that dynamic, I think, is really will be, will play an important long-term function outside of that, you know, any mechanism. And this is why that sort of patchwork of municipal tools that are being deployed is interesting. Any mechanism that just sends a signal to the market that emitting carbon from your buildings is going to have a pricing consequence or a consequence in terms of what you can and can't develop. Any of those market signals are helpful, even signals that those things may eventually come into play, like what the federal government has done, that sort of we commit to putting in place a framework to look at the eventual change of the structure. Even those kinds of statements can help influence the narrative around decision making for what future risk looks like to building owners and so, you know, building performance standards, I think, are really interesting. I've seen the difference that it makes in the discourses that we have with players that are in Vancouver, and it the idea that eventually we're going to have to pay more to emit it's a powerful motivator. But I have to hasten to add, you have to make sure that the market can respond. You don't want to have those kinds of policies in place without also making sure that you've got the HVAC industry ready, you've got the labor force to get the job done, because then you have policies that fail, right? So, any of those kinds of policies, I think, are interesting to see implemented and tested and understand the degree to which they actually drive the market.

Trevor Freeman 44:58

Yeah, I think you've done a great job of, of really helping paint that picture of even a simple challenge, you know, simple in quotation marks, obviously, of getting more heat pumps into more buildings requires different roles at different levels. And so there's that sort of federal role to, you know, again, understand what, what are the levers that a federal government might have knowing that some of the specifics around buildings are not in their jurisdiction, but helping to support predictability when it comes to pricing signals, for example, like a price on carbon, or supporting sort of national workforce training to get more contractors out there to support installations, down to sort of the provincial energy policy level, down to the municipal level of how do municipalities support their citizens, their residents, and making these changes in their buildings and the levers that they have? And I think there's a role for all those levels to play. It's just understanding where are those sorts of sweet spots to put pressure on and to sort of push towards that, that action that ultimately is up to building owners and tenants to take. Great thanks for that. Brian. So, a couple last questions here. As we, as we near the end of our conversation, I do want to take a minute and just sort of put ourselves in the headspace of a building owner. So, someone that has a has a building, let's say, a commercial office building, and is looking to take steps towards phasing out fossil fuel use in their buildings. They want to decarbonize. What are some of the strategies that you've observed in your work that that really do work from that building owner perspective, what are some of those steps that they can take to move towards decarbonizing their building?

Brian Flannagan 46:47

Yeah, it's a good question. I think it depends on who the building owner is. You know, as an if we're talking about a residential kind of homeowner, the idea, I think, is just to start getting start making long term plans and budgeting what this is going to look like, and taking it into a consideration when you're, you know, planning the various renovations that you're going to have at your home. Most people renovate for specific reasons that are outside of just, hey, I want to do the right thing by the environment right lots of my friends, of lots of people in our circles do that. They're the thin edge of the wedge of sort of early adopters that do it for truly altruistic reasons, right? But most homeowners don't operate in that way. And so, the idea is to, you know, really begin looking at, well, how old is my furnace, and when do I think, I might need to replace it? And to start putting in place the decision making early so that you're not caught off guard with a surprise replacement. I think the biggest tragedy right now is that a lot of people are replacing their furnaces because they're in an emergency situation. You know, the heating season is upon us, and you know, a contractor comes and just says, hey, listen, there's no time to start entertaining alternatives. We got to get your system in place. And they replaced within with a like for light gas furnace, and that thing is going to be in place for 1520, years, right? So, we're now at 2045, and so, you know, the urgency of the idea of avoiding those emergency replacements as much as possible is really, really critical. So, for a homeowner, I would say the steps to take are, you know, look at it from a long-term perspective. Where is the industry going in 10 years, if you want to sell your home, is it going to be better or you're going to be better off or worse off if you've got the most modern and best technology in place for your building, can you demonstrate that you've made investments that are in line with this idea? I think those kinds of things are important considerations to make and to begin budgeting forward appropriately. You know, because it is a little bit more expensive on the first cost, programs are difficult to navigate, so it takes time and energy to kind of understand what those program environments are and what you're eligible for grants. But it's sort of that doing that work up front before you get caught off guard is important. And I would say if anybody wants to add an air conditioner, if anybody's contemplating getting cooling to deal with our summer heat situation that's present in many parts of the country. It's really, really beneficial to strongly consider adding a heat pump in that moment, I think, for commercial building owners, you know, it's a similar thing, but it's but it's elevated to a higher sort of long term capital planning exercise, the idea of what we call decarbonization plans, building and portfolio decarbonization plans, this is a field that's really growing among consultants and architect and engineering firms to offer a service to help building owners understand how all these pieces fit together, and to be able to decarbonize their building stock in a logical, sort of sensible way, based on the current state of the building in its overall capital replacement needs, and especially looking for synergies between the bigger projects, like envelope upgrades and the bigger projects having to do with the end of equipment life, making sure that that end of. Life moment is again captured in a similar way to what we just talked about with homeowners, so that you're not in a situation where your choices are limited. And I think, you know, ultimately, a lot of it for bigger portfolio owners, has to, has to come back to some of the ESG kind of impetus. And really trying to understand, in addition to that, what that dream premium would look like for them, you know, and kind of how it aligns with their corporate values and the financial criteria that get baked into the project. And we know that there are a lot of projects, for example, when geothermal systems are put into place, where you're freeing up mechanical space that can then deliver revenue additional revenue streams. And so, the direct sort of cost comparison of before and after isn't necessarily obvious, and that's why having decarbonization plans that try to bring in those value streams as aggressively as possible can really be helpful.

Trevor Freeman 50:57

Yeah, I think I mean, the main takeaway for me from that is, is plan. Think about this ahead of time, do your analysis. And it's something that I know in the work that that I'm involved in here at Hydro Ottawa. It's something we talk to our commercial customers, especially a lot about is spend the time to create the plan so you're not caught off guard. You know what you're going to do. You know what your strategy is, and you can implement it doesn't have to be done overnight, and the context will change, right? You know, new programs will come into play. Existing programs will leave. There will be different times where it makes sense to do different projects. But if you have that plan, if you know what the strategy is, then you're, you're well set up. So maybe one last quick question. You know, the idea of programs coming and going. It's not always a straight path when it comes to policy, and as much as there's been some exciting things happening in the last little while when it comes to policy and the regulatory framework around decarbonization, so we've had a price on carbon in Canada for a while. We know that things ebb and flow, and so we are likely looking at least a federal election this year here in Canada, likely a provincial election here in Ontario, where we're speaking from. And these things can change policy and policy can ebb and flow. How does the decarbonization effort handle changes in policy, changes in prioritization from the different levels of government that we talked about, you know what? What is the strategy when it comes to those changes as we move forward?

Brian Flannagan 52:36

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, especially, especially in the times that we're in for the listeners. You know, this is the day after Prime Minister Trudeau announced his resignation, and there's a lot that's happening. I think the strategy overall is, it's quite simple, but it's to recognize that this has always been the case. You know, municipal and provincial and federal governments across the country are changing on different timetables all the time, the alignment of sort of ideological approaches to dealing with the climate crisis are in flux, and have been in flux the whole time, you know, and so I think it's incumbent on us, and this is, this is part of the approach that will be saved. The BDA, the building decarbonization Alliance, is trying to take a different approach. I don't know that we're there in terms of truly embodying that Spirit just yet. It's a work in progress. We're still very new, but the idea of really embracing that we have to be able to work with an incumbent of any political stripe or leaning, including gas utilities, who are powerful incumbents here, who have every reason to want to continue what they're doing, we have to find logic and rationale to drive us, commonly toward a net zero objective for all of the international, global competitiveness positioning issues that we talked about earlier. Right? It's not easy to do that, because climate ideology has traditionally sort of been a left leaning ideology, and I think it's difficult to overcome that and work with different ideologies. But you know, when you have a populist sort of idea saying, hey, people can't afford a house, or people can't afford their energy bills, those are statements that resonate with people, and we have to. We can't come along and say, oh no, this is totally affordable, this is easy, this is a slam dunk. You just electrify your building, like spend $20,000 on a heat pump. You should be able to do that like that is not in touch with the reality of what a lot of people feel. So, I think it's the strategy for us is to recognize that we have to be able to truly address those concerns with evidence and with science and with technologies that actually deliver the goods, we think that there's a strong case for many of those things, like cold climate heat pumps work that question. I think that question is largely resolved, and if you don't have exactly the technology that you need put in a hybrid system for now. That's fine in 15 years when you replace it, the cold climate heat pumps then, or even going to be better, you know? So, there are things that we can put to bed, but we have to be able to if that isn't the case, if it's not actually affordable in a given jurisdiction, we can't walk in and say, hey, well, why aren't you guys doing this? This is affordable. It's not and I think those political ideologies often tap into those different elements where we don't have the narrative fully baked as powerfully as we should to counter, you know, whether it's questions of energy system reliability or energy choice is another sort of theme that comes out. You can't tell me which heating system I'm going to use. Well, I don't need to convince you if you already believed that it's just fundamentally better, you know. And we see this with electric vehicles, actually, the transition there has been interesting where the strategy is to say, hey, this electric car is like, way better than an internal combustion car, you know. Credit to Elon Musk for bringing out a vehicle that was just faster than anything else. Any piston head would just look at that and say, oh, my God, the performance is crazy. And sort of having, having those ready answers to really diffuse with conviction and based on actual evidence, to diffuse those messages, I think, is really, really important. And we have a lot of areas of study that are still left. We talked about the green premium earlier, for investments in commercial buildings. We don't really know, you know. And to say, well, if you invest your property value is going to go up, or the asset value is going to increase. It's just, we just don't know that. And so, following the evidence and being able to acknowledge where we don't, where we don't have all of the answers, I think, is important, and then finding the answers and stating them with conviction when it when it does make sense, you know. And I think in the cases that I mentioned earlier, if you're, if you're heating with fuel oil, the affordability question is solved. You should get all fuel oil because that will help you to pay your energy bills, right? And so those kinds of messages, I think, land with any political stripe, if it's back based, and if it actually follows from a logical thread. You know, it's hard to do, but I think it's necessary work if we're really going to get to where we need to go.

Trevor Freeman 57:06

Yeah, and at the end of the day, I mean, the work doesn't stop just because the headwinds get a bit stronger. And you know, the like you said, we got to find those messages that resonate and that makes sense, and then are rooted in fact and rooted in things that really resonate with people. So, I think that's a great place to wrap up the conversation. Brian, I really appreciate your time today. Thanks for joining us. We do always end our chats here with a series of questions to our guests. So, I'm going to put you on the spot here with a few questions, starting with, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read.

Brian Flannagan 57:40

Oh, my God, there's so many. I would go with. Outlive. The byline is the science of longevity, and it's by an author called Peter Ottawa, and it's, I think it's just pretty important reading about, you know, the major causes of illness in North America, and strategies that you might deploy to try to live healthier, longer. Pretty cool reading, lots of lots of stuff in there for everybody to take away, I think.

Trevor Freeman 58:09

Yeah, and good time of year for it, the New Year. Everybody's on their health kick right now. So, grab that book and get some ideas. 100% so same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show that you have watched that you think everybody should take a look at.

Brian Flannagan 58:23

My favorite go to is the Shawshank Redemption. I just can't think of a movie that's represents better storytelling. The cast is incredible. The story is incredible. It moves me every time I watch it. That's just crazy good. So, that's usually at the top of my list. I mean, there's so many. I'm a bit of a movie. But of a movie buff. There's lots and lots. But that one usually, usually rises to the top.

Trevor Freeman 58:47

My kids are getting older, and I'm starting to think about, yeah, what are all those movies that are so good that I just need them to be a little bit older before I can watch with them? So that's definitely on the list.

Brian Flannagan 58:58

100% I've and I've had this. I've had the same ruminations with my kids, when, when is it appropriate? Because there's some very mature themes. But it's a great movie, for sure.

Trevor Freeman 59:08

If someone offered you a free round-trip flight, let's hope for a sort of electrified plane or some sort of carbon offset anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Brian Flannagan 59:17

It's going to be biofuels, by the way, for the airline industry. That's why we need to save all of the biofuels for those harder to decarbonize sectors. When people talk about decarbonizing buildings with biofuels and things like that, it's like, no, no, we have to save them. So that's why electricity, it's a whole that's a whole other aside to the conversation that we had. But yes, I'd, I'd go to New Zealand or in Australia. I think I haven't been, long flight. The great value, and thanks for the free tickets, Trevor, I'll look for them in the mail, but yeah, I haven't been and the idea there's just so many adventures to be had out there, hiking or mountain biking or just exploring the Outback and camping would just be fantastic. It's a lifelong dream. I'll get there eventually.

Trevor Freeman 59:58

Who's someone that you admire? Well, it's just so many different role models. I mean, in in the news recently, I would say, a bit of a news junkie, and so following the war in Ukraine over the last several years has been, you know, heartbreaking, and in many ways, kind of, you know, Volodymyr Zelensky as their leader has been inspirational. And kind of, it's reemerging in the news given the election of Donald Trump again, and you know, the resolve and sort of his beginnings, and how he came into that role, and what he's having to contend with, and the kind of leadership that he's exhibiting. And I'm certain that there's lots of flaws and lots of things that I may not be aware of in the man, but looking at it from an outside observer, based on the news that I'm able to access, oh my goodness. What a leader. Very, very inspirational. Yeah, it is always cool to see examples of just phenomenal leadership in the face of adversity, and there are a few of those throughout history. But yeah, that's definitely a good example of it. Last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future coming up, you know, at the beginning of 2025 here something that you're really excited about.

Brian Flannagan 1:01:04

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's sort of way out there. And I know from an energy future perspective, in terms of generating abundant energy, we've got wind and we've got solar that are, you know, just declining in price and increasing in terms of their capacity to feed electricity systems like that, obviously, is really promising, but something that's had my attention for a really long time is the prospect of eventual nuclear fusion. I know that that's bonkers. It's super expensive. And there's lots of reasons to say, well, come on, Brian, that's never going to really be a solution like that's certainly not going to help us for 2050 and all those things are true. So, things are true. But there's a project that's taking place in France. It's an international collaboration called ITAF, which is building this really huge, the first at scale, sort of example of a nuclear fusion reactor. And the project is fascinating. It's got an amazing website that details and that illustrates in great detail how they're building this thing, and how various countries are bringing different components together, and the technical and engineering challenge of it. It's like a moonshot. And I don't know what it is about that that captures my imagination the way that it does, but seeing that kind of an engineering feat unfolding, and it's like a 30-year project to get the thing done, seems like it's probably going to work by the time they get it finished, computing technology will be sufficient. Will be sufficiently advanced to control the Plasma field, and all these things are kind of lining up. The idea of being able to turn something on and off that's nuclear, without the safety considerations, and having that kind of power emanate from it, basically free energy at the end of the day, quote, unquote, it just captures my imagination in a way that none of the other sort of technologies that we're plugging away with, the reliable things like wind and solar that that's for sure, that's the way it's going to going to go in terms of clean energy. But yeah, that project just there's something about it. Anybody who's listening should look it up. It's it er, that's super cool to see how they've put together the graphics and the story of the of the system, and who knows, maybe, maybe our grandchildren will see that kind of technology helping to power all of the advanced systems that we're going to need in 100 years.

Trevor Freeman 1:03:14

Yeah, I had this conversation with a friend not too long ago about, you know, what is the thing that's happening now that's it's on the periphery. We're not too familiar with it, but in 50 years, people will look back and be like, oh, I wonder what it was like to be aware of the infancy of that thing. And who knows, maybe nuclear fusion is that thing so great example. Well, Brian, I really appreciate your time today. Thanks for joining us and talking through decarbonization of buildings, this massive part of the decarbonization effort that certainly could use all the focus it can get. So, appreciate your time and good to chat.

Brian Flannagan 1:03:50

Yeah, thanks to you. It's been it's been a lot of fun. Keep doing what you're doing. It's been great.

Trevor Freeman 1:03:55

Awesome. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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The energy sector is always changing. Episode 149 of thinkenergy explores what to keep an eye on this year. Like political influence. How will the Trump administration's takeover reshape policies across the border? What are the potential impacts of federal and provincial elections here in Canada and Ontario? From energy strategies to affordability to decarbonization efforts. Listen in as host Trevor Freeman uncovers how politics influence the energy sector and what to expect from thinkenergy in 2025.

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com Hey everyone, and welcome back, and welcome to 2025. Happy New Year. I hope you all had a restful and relaxing break. I know I certainly enjoyed a little bit of time off with some friends and family, and it was nice to sort of recharge. But here we are at the start of a new year, at 2025 early January, the whole year is ahead of us, and there's lots of work to do, and being in the energy sector means there's lots of change ahead. On that note, today, we thought we'd dive into some of the areas that we think might shape or influence or be areas to watch for when it comes to energy in 2025. There's no such thing as a quiet or stand still year when it comes to the energy sector, 2025 will be no different. So, we thought we'd take a look at some of the things that we think might sort of hit the headlines or really drive change. So, without further ado, let's dive into those areas. Area number one is politics. So, energy is political, and energy shapes politics, and politics shapes energy, and that's the same every year, but 2025 is shaping up to be a pretty significant year when it comes to political change that might impact energy policy. So, to start with, we are mere days away, a little over a week away as I record this from a new US administration. The Trump administration will take over on January 20, and like any change in administration and what is arguably the biggest economy in the world that will have an impact on climate change policy, energy policy, the flow of goods across borders. You know, there's talk of tariffs between Canada and the US. So just because it is in the United States, that doesn't mean it won't impact us here in Canada, so we'll be looking to see what change that does bring, what how that influences politics and energy policy and the flow of goods and all of those things that can impact what we do with energy. A little bit closer to home however, we also have some change potentially coming here in Ontario, at least, we are looking at potentially two elections this year. So, to start with, there's the federal election. It is very, very likely, almost a sure thing that we will see a federal election in the coming months. Justin Trudeau has recently announced his resignation, which will almost definitely trigger an election. So, we could be looking at a new government, or a new mandate for the existing government. So, what might that mean? Well, if the Liberal Party the current government, manages to get another mandate and remain in power, we kind of know what their priorities are. They've been going down a path for the last little while. They will probably continue to invest in clean energy infrastructure, they will continue to push for net zero goals and look for ways to support others to achieve net zero targets as well. If there's a change in governments, which the polling suggests is likely, and the Conservatives get into power, they are likely to look to prioritize affordability and resource sector competitiveness. They may also adjust timelines for emissions targets as a result of that. The one big thing that's worth mentioning, of course, is the price on carbon. This was brought in by the existing Liberal government, and they stand behind it. The Conservatives are very much campaigning on a platform of getting rid of the price on carbon, the Federal price on carbon that will have significant impact on energy policy and how things move. There are a few previous episodes that you can listen to that talk a little bit about that, and I'm sure we'll talk about it throughout the year as things play out. And finally, in this section, in Ontario, it's very likely that we might see a provincial election as well. All signs are kind of pointing towards a provincial election this year. So what could that mean? Well, similarly, our existing government has kind of made their energy policy known. We know what their focus is. So they are focused on expanding our traditional energy mix, so nuclear, some natural gas, as well as some investments in renewables in order to make sure that the grid can handle growth and electrification in that sort of rising demand that we're seeing. Should we see a change in government to one of the opposition parties? There may be more of a push for more renewable sources and lowering those carbon emissions faster than the current pace of change, at least based on what they are saying. So we'll keep an eye on that and how that comes into play. Obviously, energy is sort of primarily in the provincial jurisdiction here, so a change in government or a new mandate for the existing government would certainly have a big impact on energy policy. So area number one politics, area number two is energy affordability. So Canadians have always cared about affordability when it comes to energy this has been sort of a driver in previous elections, but it is definitely top of mind now, as we are coming out of sort of a wave of inflation, supply chain issues, there's an affordability crisis, sort of across the economy in Canada, for many Canadians. So that definitely applies to energy as well. What does this mean? Well, it certainly will influence the way many people vote in the elections that I just mentioned. So look for Canadians to be wanting to know what those political parties stance is on energy and energy affordability. It may also impact the pace of adoption of decarbonization measures and electrification and some of those energy transition pieces that we're seeing. So if folks are struggling with the affordability of their bill. That means they are not likely to invest in large upfront capital cost items to change that. On the other hand, Canadians will be looking for ways to reduce their energy costs, and so maybe some of these items that might help reduce electricity costs will become more attractive to Canadians, they will also be looking for programs to help them with this, and the province just recently announced their new incentive structures, or the new iteration of save on energy incentive programs called the home renovation savings program here in Ontario, and Canadians will likely want to take advantage of that to help upgrade equipments, make their homes more efficient. There's a commercial stream for that as well, so businesses and institutions will also be looking to take advantage of that to address energy costs. So energy affordability will certainly be a driver, as it often is in 2025. Area number three is decarbonization. So decarbonization is here to stay, and we expect that to ramp up this year, for sure, to continue being a point of importance for Canadians. So the climate crisis won't disappear from the news. As I record this, we're, you know, seeing these really terrible images and stories coming out of the Los Angeles area about wildfires, it seems like that's a perennial thing. We see that every year now, that will continue, and that really does drive people to think about their own decarbonization journeys. We are still in the early stages of adoption for some of this technology. You know, heat pumps, home generation and storage, real deep decarbonization measures were in those early stages. So I don't expect, you know, massive steps forward in the next 12 months, but I think more folks are going to start thinking about and planning for their actions on this, and that's at the both the residential and the commercial level. So here at Hydro Ottawa, we're seeing a lot of our commercial customers take advantage of our Enercan funded Ottawa Retrofit Accelerator program, which really supports that sort of carbon pathway planning, that plan to decarbonization. And I think a lot of folks will start thinking, you know, what's my next move when it comes to decarbonizing? You know, if my furnace is getting to be a little bit old, am I going to put that heat pump in? You know, even if I don't do it in the next 12 months, I want to start thinking about what that looks like. So we expect decarbonization to continue to be a point of focus. We expect it to be a point of topic, you know, in these elections that we talked about, because that climate crisis is in front of our faces, always in the news, and that won't be changing. Area number four is clean electricity, grid modernization and energy efficiency. So in keeping with the previous point, decarbonization, electrification is one of the main tools to decarbonize, and we are moving to changing some of those end uses, from fossil fuel combustion to electricity. So things like heating our homes, our spaces, our water and transportation. You know, how we get around, what we drive, what sort of public transportation we take. The solution to these things, when it comes to climate change, is primarily electricity. So in order to make sure that we have enough electricity and that the electricity we have is clean enough to support that, we will see more movement towards this in this year. So just in December before the end of the year, December 2024, the Federal clean electricity regulations were finalized. And these regulations kind of chart a path to decarbonizing electricity generation in Canada by 2050 you'll notice that that's a change in date. The previous target was going to be 2035 but over the course of the last little while, the federal government has come out and said, yeah, look, we think it's more realistic to set 2050 as a target, so that is the new target. And the federal government's investing significant money behind this. There's $60 billion to help this general move towards decarbonizing our electricity generation, and to make sure that that's done in a way that keeps energy affordable for Canadians. At the same time, utilities across the country will continue to invest in grid modernization. So as well as infrastructure expansion, not just modernization, we're also building and growing our grids to keep up with the pace of change, but we need to also be able to leverage more DER's on the grid, so more distributed energy resources, small scale solar generation, things like that. So we will continue to see utilities make steps in that direction. They will look to levels of government to support those initiatives through programs and funding and regulatory change. So we will continue to see that change in grid modernization. I know it's definitely a big topic for us here at Hydro Ottawa. And finally, in this section, energy efficiency. Energy efficiency is not new. It's been around for for quite a while. In fact, it was the primary focus, kind of before we shifted a little bit more towards thinking about carbon. But we cannot fully decarbonize. We cannot fully electrify without significant energy efficiency. We just won't be able to affordably build the infrastructure we need if we're not using energy in an efficient way. So that will continue to be a focus. And in fact, I mentioned the new incentive programs from the province of Ontario that is very much designed to support ongoing energy efficiency measures. So, we will continue to see that as a focus in 2025 and our final area, area number five, is technology. So there is no year anymore, in fact, maybe there never was where technology doesn't continue to grow and expand and evolve in ways that we couldn't even imagine. And it does seem like the pace of change is picking up, but I think that's kind of normal. So we will see technology that supports or augments the energy transition continue to evolve in 2025 and the ways that technology influenced that really, you know, we have an idea on some of them, and it'll be interesting to look back in 12 months at what we know in December 2025, that we didn't even know here today in January. So a couple specific areas. You know, we're seeing EV technologies continuing to involve we will see continued EV adoption throughout the year. Year over year, over the last five years, you know, EV adoption in Canada has increased steadily. In July of 2024 you know, zero emission vehicles hit almost 14% of market share, we can expect that to continue increasing. As that happens, you know, more charger technology out there, more sort of, not just the physical charger, but the ways that those chargers interact with the grid more control over that to make sure that we're managing charging in an appropriate way. The role of AI is really going to be interesting to watch this year. So AI, of course, is all over the news across all sectors of the economy, but certainly in the energy sector, it has a role to play, and there's kind of two facets to that. The first is the role that AI might play in helping us manage our energy costs, our energy usage, and that's both at the consumer level. So, what will AI help me do in my home, to manage my energy costs, to manage the sort of cleanliness of my energy? Let's say I want to really focus on just, you know, green energy when the grid is at its cleanest and try and avoid it when it's maybe more carbon intensive. What's the role of AI in that this is likely a multi year stretch. I'm not saying that we're going to sort of have all those questions answered by the end of this year, but I think we will see movement in that direction over the course of this year, and then also at the utility level. What's the role of AI in helping utilities manage the grid? You know, understanding where there are feeders that are increasing or that are getting near capacity limits and needing to shift. Again, this is not a 12 month exercise. This is a multi year exercise, but I expect we will maybe see some movement in that direction. The other way that AI and the increasing role of AI will impact the energy sector is just purely from an energy needs perspective, so AI is an order of magnitude higher when it comes to the amount of computing power that is necessary. So that, you know, the kind of stat that gets thrown around is that a chat GPT search uses about 10 times more energy as a standard Google, you know, search, a search engine search. So with all of this stuff going through AI, we're seeing more computing power needed. So that means, you know, bigger, more dense data centers that have larger cooling needs, which means more energy requirements. And, as much as we're seeing electrification drive demand up for electricity AI usage and data center usage is also driving up demand. And, so we're seeing larger load requests. You know, utilities are having to figure out, how do we provide way more power than we've had to previously, to some of these new customers and customers that are wanting it kind of overnight, like, hey, we're ready to build a data center like tomorrow. Can you supply us with a significant amount of power? So that will certainly be a driver. The last little piece of technology that I want to mention there's, you know, we could go on for hours on this topic is when it comes to sort of home generation and storage, especially storage. Solar panels have kind of been around for a while now. We've seen that really precipitous drop in price when it comes to solar technology, and that continues, but home, or sort of behind the meter storage, is really becoming a thing that is more realistic than it has ever been before. So, the incentive programs that I've brought up a couple times here in the province of Ontario now provide an incentive to put in a behind the meter battery in your home, and the role that those will play, we're only just beginning to see, you know, helping customers manage their energy costs. You know, charge that with your solar panels and then use the battery during peak times, or charge it during off peak times and use it during peak times. You know, managing costs redundancy and resiliency, and, you know, helping you out with a bit of a bridge during times of outage will be really important. And you know, we're seeing that at the at the household level, but we're also going to see that on a much bigger scale, at the commercial level. So, commercial customers are also looking at what's the role of battery storage to help them manage costs, and then even one next level, up at the grid level. So, we are seeing large scale battery storage projects that will support sort of grid management, help manage peaks for utilities so that they can, you know, defer or delay or reduce the size of that infrastructure builds, you know, if they can manage to rely on batteries for those handful of times a year when we spike into those peaks, then that helps out with grid planning. So those are some of the technology pieces that we expect to see really kind of flourish or take it to the next level in 2025 again, all of these things are not short term projects, 2025 we'll see some change, but these are, like, multi year things that will go on beyond that. So those are the areas that we think will kind of drive change, or be areas to watch for this year. You can likely expect some conversations on the podcast about that over the course of the year, because certainly they will be making news, and there's some really interesting folks working on some really interesting things when it comes to those areas. But, was there anything that we didn't identify that you're kind of keeping your eye on? Is there anything that you think we should be keeping your eye on, or that you're keeping a look at? Feel free to let us know you can reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com As always, we love to hear your thoughts and feedback. We love to hear kind of your ideas for topics or episodes that we should do or guests that we should have on the show. We're going to continue to explore with format this year. So we'll definitely keep talking to some really smart folks, we will throw out a few more of those kind of explainer episodes where we try to demystify a complex or maybe unseen topic when it comes to the energy sector. But, whatever we do, we look forward to having ongoing conversations with you guys and hearing your feedback, and this is the kind of stuff that we just love talking about. So thanks for listening. Happy New Year, and we look forward to chatting to you next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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The final episode of thinkenergy in 2024 unwraps on the year’s biggest topic: the energy transition. Learn how it’s shaped discussions and actions across the energy sector, as we revisit the most insightful moments from past episodes, including expert insights on sustainable practices, investments needed for future transformations, and the impacts on rural, remote, and urban communities. Tune in for a holiday rewind of how the energy transition affects Canadian consumers, businesses, and the environment.

Related links

● Episode 144 (The what, where, when, and how of Canada’s energy transition): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/the-what-where-when-and-how-of-canadas-energy-transition/

● Episode 140 (Current affairs with Francis Bradley, Electricity Canada’s President and CEO): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/current-affairs-with-francis-bradley-electricity-canadas-president-and-ceo/

● Episode 141 (Decarbonizing and electrifying your home, with Sarah Grant of Goldfinch Energy): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-and-electrifying-your-home-with-sarah-grant-of-goldfinch-energy/

● Episode 142 (Electrifying Canada’s remote communities with QUEST Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/

● Episode 142 (Turning energy consumer interest into action with EY Global): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/turning-energy-consumer-interest-into-action-with-ey-global/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrottawa.com. Hey everyone and welcome back. Well, we find ourselves here at the tail end of 2024 about to wrap up the year. Hopefully you are all looking at some restful holiday plans, a chance to sort of unwind and decompress after what seems to be the same every year, kind of a busy year. There's always lots going on, but hopefully you're looking forward to some downtime over the holidays. I know I certainly am, as is normal, at the end of the year, we are looking back on the year that was the year that we've just gone through. And I'll say right off the bat that I'm really grateful for this year and this chance to step into the host role of the think energy podcast earlier this year, I took over in March of this year, when the previous host, Dan Seguin, retired, so I'll express my gratitude right off the bat to Dan and team for sort of pioneering this podcast over the previous years and then trusting me to take over the host chair. It's been a really fun journey and fun to kind of engage with our guests on different topics that I'm really passionate about you guys know from listening to this that I really like talking about climate change and energy and the energy transition, and this is a really cool and neat platform to be able to do that. So, thanks to the team for trusting me with that role. One thing we've been doing, as we've been looking back, is trying to figure out, you know, what is the main theme of this podcast here? What do we actually talk about? In our last episode you know that we did a bit of a summary of some of the top episodes from the year, in terms of, you know, interest from you the listener. For this one, what we wanted to do is really embody the theme of the year, and I think it should be no surprise that the theme is the energy transition. I mean, that's kind of the theme of the podcast. I know we touch on other aspects of working in the energy sector, but the energy transition is really the all-encompassing theme or thing that we talk about, and we spend a lot of time on here in this podcast, and so we wanted to bring you some of the episodes that really talk through what that energy transition is, and what does it mean for us. What does it mean for us as energy consumers, as homeowners and people that work and own and run businesses, as people that work in the utility industry and are making decisions about the future of energy? So, we've picked a few clips from the year that we think really embody that. So, get comfy, hopefully you're warm inside, as it's maybe snowy out where you are, maybe not, maybe you're listening from somewhere warm. But get comfy and have a listen to what we think are some of the clips that really embody what this year was about when it comes to the energy transition. To start things off, I think it would be good to and unfortunately, you're going to have to listen to my voice for another little bit longer. It'll be good to start with an episode I did not too long ago, which was really a primer on the energy transition, which really focused on helping everybody wrap their heads around what exactly is this thing that we talk about called the energy transition. So have a listen to this clip from that. And if you're interested, go back and listen to the whole episode. When we think about the energy transition, we probably mostly think of this ongoing shift to cleaner emissions free energy. So EVs over gas cars, heat pumps over gas furnaces, etc. That is definitely part of it. In fact, that's a major part of it. But like most things in life, it's never just as simple as that. The energy transition is a truly fundamental shift in our global relationship with energy, which includes not just what makes our cars go, but everything from how, where and when we generate energy, how, where and when we store and use energy, how we pay for the energy we use, how we finance and pay for energy projects and the systems that we need to do all the things I just mentioned. It will include a shift in what policies and regulatory guidelines and barriers we put in place to protect the public, but that also encourage change that we want to see happen to allow for innovation and advancement. It isn't completely throwing out everything we have and starting from scratch, although some things will disappear, like coal fired electricity generation, for example, but in a lot of areas, it is building on what we've already got at a pace that we haven't seen before, or at least in a very long time. I think that's a key point here. One of the things that makes the energy transition, a change worth noting is the pace of change that we will see. Things have never really been static in the world of energy, from that time when our earliest ancestors first sparked that fire, this is the poetic part that I mentioned earlier, our relationship to energy has never really stood still, but other than a few significant events, the upward trend in sophistication and growth and scope has been fairly linear, gradual, one step after the other, et cetera. It's those exceptions, though, those things that are different from that gradual, linear growth that probably most closely resemble this period of change that has started that we're calling the energy transition. Take the Industrial Revolution, for example. For decades and centuries prior, there had been gradual improvements in how we got around or how we work the fields. Let's say, you know, first by hand, then with tools, maybe a better plow came along. We started using a horse or an oxen to pull that plow, etc. That along comes the steam engine, and all of a sudden, things take off like never before. It wasn't just a matter of swapping out a horse for an engine. It may have started there, but entire economies and aspects of society changed or sprang up where they didn't exist before one change rolls into another and another in quick succession, and before too long, things that couldn't be imagined only decades before are suddenly a reality to a degree, that's what we're looking at today with the energy transition. How far that change goes remains to be seen, but it's pretty clear that we have begun one of those disruptive periods of change that will be looked back on as a major turning point. So yes, the energy transition is about shifting away from greenhouse gas emitting fossil fuels, coal, oil, natural gas, et cetera, to renewable, non-emitting energy sources, solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, etc. But it's also so much more. Even without climate change, our need for energy is growing at an exponential pace. In Canada, we're fortunate in that we have a strong foundation with a relatively decarbonized grid already, so about 80% carbon free nationally, and a diverse mix of hydro, nuclear and renewables like wind and solar. But it's still going to take quite a lot of effort to decarbonize that remaining 20% at a time when, as I keep mentioning, demand is increasing rapidly. In Ontario, our electricity system operator, the ieso, just updated their future demand projections to show that provincial demand will be 75% more or less high by 2050 than it is today. This means we also need to invest in our grid infrastructure to ensure it can handle the increased load, as well as utilizing things like decentralized generation and storage to ensure we don't over build not to mention making sure we can handle more extreme weather. So, I think that's a good place to set the stage for us. But now let's get into some of the real experts on this. And we'll go next to a conversation that I had with Francis Bradley, who's the president and CEO of electricity Canada. Electricity Canada is the sort of national voice of sustainable electricity. Here in Canada, they represent 40 of the largest utility companies. So that's companies that generate, transmit and distribute electricity from coast to coast all across Canada. And Francis and I talked about what level of investment is going to be required in order to accomplish some of those aspects of the energy transition that we talk about. So, here's what Francis had to say about that.

Francis Bradley 09:02

I mean, these are, these are great questions in terms of what the investments are going to look like. And so, you know, we're looking at, as I said earlier, doubling the doubling the grid, we're going to need at least two times more kilowatt hours when we get to the future. So, you know, that's the level of investment that we need to be thinking about. There have been different organizations that have tried to kind of get a scope and scale of what that actually looks like. Again, I mentioned the RBC climate Institute last year. It had a study that came out, and I believe they, they peg this at, I think was $2 trillion was the was the amount that they expected this to cost? Where's the money coming from? Well, you know, that's a really good question, and it's one that we've been engaging in for a number of years now. And I'll try not to be, like, totally pedantic on this, but you know, if you can consider from a public policy standpoint, if we believe that expanding the electricity system is necessary to decarbonize the Canadian economy, then essentially, what you're saying is that expanding the electricity system is a public good from, you know, from an economic theory standpoint, if it's a public good, well, then it is something that should be borne by that taxpayer, not the ratepayer, right? And so, you know, part of this discussion is, who needs to bear the costs for building out a clean, non-emitting electricity system so that the rest of the economy can decarbonize. Should it be the electricity customer, or are there parts of this, this core infrastructure, that that are regarded as a public good, and it's something that this paid for by the taxpayer, you know, and we see this in other sectors, other sectors as well, where, you know, certain things are perceived to be public good and their taxpayers supported. And we saw a bit of a recognition and a realization that this made sense to a degree in the federal government's budget in 2023 where, you know, they essentially pledged one in every $8 in new spending was going to clean electricity projects through a variety of needs. You know, the investment tax credits, the Canada infrastructure bank, a number of funding mechanisms. So, I mean that those kinds of dollars from the federal government was a commitment to building infrastructure that really is unheard of at a national level since the Second World War. So, you know, it really kind of moved clean energy and electrification into the category of, well, I guess it's a public good. Because, you know, there's a recognition that if the federal government wants to achieve these policy objectives, it needs to put some federal dollars in. So, you know that determination is and whether it's a public good or not, has been made in favor of the taxpayer versus the rate there. Now, again, you know, you could easily say, well, hang on a second, the rate payer and the taxpayer the same person, except that it doesn't quite work the same way. You know, do we want to attach to the customers’ bills, every single customer, the cost of you knows, this, this expansion of our infrastructure or not. And you know, electricity bills are not something that fall, as taxes do disproportionately on those that are wealthier, right? And so, it is a little fairer. Now, you know, in terms of the specific investments, you know, I think exactly how this is going to happen and how it's going to roll out. Those details are still being worked out by some of our members. But I do want to highlight that, you know, the approach here that we're seeing from the government, which we appreciate, is, you know, a one that is so far technology and agnostic, which we think is the right way to go. So, you know, we there isn't, like, a right way or a wrong way to generate electricity. So, you know, the future that we see is going to be an all of the above future that will encompass wind and solar and nuclear and traditional hydro and and hydrogen and carbon capture and storage and more. Not only does that give us, you know, the greatest flexibility, and gives us the ability to balance different types of generation, dispatchable versus non dispatchable. But it also gives us, you know, overall, a far more flexible system. So, you know, that's the what the future is going to look like. So, to, you know, to give you the short answer, it'll be all of the above, and it'll be probably $2 trillion. You know, I kind of touched on this a couple of times, but No, first and foremost, the energy transition, if you will, as I noted earlier, can't be paid exclusively by the ratepayers, right? You know, this is an overall objective that we have. And so, you know, the infrastructure build is so large that that it needs to be, certainly, parts of it need to be paid through the tax system, and that that is progressive in a way that rates are not progressive to begin with. Now, you know, but boy, addressing vulnerable customers absolutely critical. Now there's a variety of things that that could be tried. You know, in the United States that there's a Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program that it helps keep families safe and healthy through initiatives that assist families with energy costs this, I think they call it the LIHEAP provides federally funded assistance to reduce the costs associated with home energy bills, energy crises, weatherization and minor energy related home repairs. So you know, a similar initiative in Canada could be there to assist the but the most vulnerable, you know, as you're aware, you know, your most vulnerable customers are the ones that have the least capacity to do things like weatherization, and so, you know, there's an example of a national program that we could look at as a model.

Trevor Freeman 15:16

Francis is spot on there when he talks about not only the energy transitions potential impact on our most vulnerable. So those living in energy poverty areas are struggling with energy affordability, but also everybody who's looking to make improvements to their homes where they live in order to reduce costs and participate in the energy transition. That brings us to my next clip that I'd like to share with you, and that's a conversation I had with Sarah Grant. Sarah Grant's a good friend of mine who also happens to be an expert in her field, which is helping everyday Canadians on their journey to decarbonizing their homes so that they can contribute to Canada's energy transition. Looking at, what are the things you do in a home to decarbonize. How do you go about that? That process, Sarah and her company, Goldfinch energy are based out of Toronto, and I was really great to hear what she had to say about what it takes to decarbonize a home.

Sarah Grant 16:18

Okay, going from large to small so the largest source of emissions in a home is your space heating. Typically, the emissions are about the same as driving a sort of a mid to large sized car. You know, most people drive, on average, 15,000 kilometers a year. The emissions are going to be about the same so that's going to be the biggest one, if someone is looking and they're a little bit overwhelmed, and the best alternative is a heat pump. So these are they come in many different forms, but the most common, and I think the most common scenario for most homes, is if you have forced air, so ductwork and these kind of heat pumps can extract heat from the air outside. A lot of them can work up to minus 30 degrees. So even up to minus 30, they're able to grab latent heat in the air and pump it inside, and then it gets pumped around your house. The cool thing about them is that they can also work in reverse. So in the summer, they act just like an air conditioner. In fact, the technology is very much the same as an air conditioner, just that they work in reverse in the winter too, so they can also cool. So these are called Air source heat pumps. And yeah, if someone has forced air and they have a gas furnace or an air conditioner or both that need to be replaced, an air source heat pump is, a great option. A lot of the folks that we've worked with that have switched we talked about comfort, sort of, some of the side benefits, I would say, of a heat pump is they're typically quieter, if designed and sized and installed properly, they're quieter both the outside and the inside aspects of a heat pump, and the air from the vents is a lot more comfortable. So, we got a heat pump about three years ago, and the first winter we had it installed, my father-in-law came over for dinner one night and just stood in front of the vent, kind of like a cat basking in that warmth, and said, Oh my gosh, this is way more comfortable. It's not that dry, scorched air that a lot of people associate with, with four stairs. So that's, that's an air source heat pump. You can also, there are also ground source heat pumps, but for a lot of you know urban areas, these ground source heat pumps involve drilling into the ground, either horizontally or vertically, to extract heat from the ground. They, they, I have worked with a few homes in sort of more rural areas where it does make sense, but the costs associated with them are, are really high, and often there's not enough space in urban areas, so they're not quite as common. And I'd say, sort of, just to kind of close the conversation on, we'll conclude it on the on the heating side of things, if you do have another source of like heat, maybe it's maybe it's cast-iron radiators or baseboards, there are also heat pumps that can help you as well. So, with cast iron radiators, they're what's called air to water heat pumps. So, they'll the outdoor unit will look similar to someone who has forced air. So, it's an it's going to extract heat from the outside air, and it'll transfer it to water now that can then go through your cast iron radiators, or maybe have in floor heating or what have you. They're not as common, but the technology has existed for a long time in Europe, and there are more products and contractors that I'm working with that are becoming more comfortable with installing this technology. And last there are called ductless heat pumps. So if you don't have ductwork or cast iron radiators, or maybe have baseboards, or maybe there's a space where you know the ductwork just isn't sufficient, these ductless heat pumps can be installed. They can either go on the wall, on sort of these big white boxes. If you've been to Asia, you're probably familiar with them because they exist there, either in the form of heat pumps or or air conditioners, or you can have little floor mounted ones as well, which look a little bit slicker, I suppose, but they do cost a little bit more. So that's heating for hot water. There are kind of two main options if you want to get off of fossil fuels. Usually that's, yeah, um, for most of us, that's with the gas, but there could be propane as well. So, if you want to get off of fossil fuels with your hot water, the heat pump technology exists with hot water as well. Heat Pump hot water tanks is what they're called. Are actually confusingly, sometimes hybrid tanks, because they use heat pump technology, but then also have an electric coil so they operate. They can operate like a simple electric tank if, if needed. And they come with a little like Wi Fi app too. So, they are, like, four times more efficient than a gas hot water tank. So, you will save a little bit by switching to them. But the way they work is they'll extract heat from your basement, actually, so from your basement air and transfer that to the water. So I would say about half the people I work with end up going with them because they have a space where it makes sense. Maybe their basement is large and they can put it kind of in the corner and a big mechanical room or a workshop where they're not going to go into it. So if it, if that heat pump reduces the temperature by two degrees or so, it's not a big deal. But for me, my home is pretty tiny, and we're using every nook and cranny with five of us in it. So we opted for an electric tank and then paired it with a timer so that it only reheats the water overnight when electricity, if you're on time of use, is cheapest, and that's also when our Ontario grid is using the non-fossil fuel related forms of power production, like nuclear and water, so that can work, if you're really lucky, and you have an open an unfinished basement and a good space to install what's called a drain water heat recovery system. These are super cool, very simple technologies that can transfer the heat from any water that you've already used, like from your shower, and transfer it to the fresh water before that fresh water then goes into whatever heating mechanism you have, so they can work with anything, even if you have a gas hot water tank, a drain water heat recovery system is a good way to kind of preheat the water by extracting the heat from the hot water you've already used. A lot of hospitals I know in Toronto are starting to use these kinds of systems as well. So two main options, electric tank, you pump out water tank, and then those drain water heat recovery systems as well, and hot water. So, you know, I said you're heating, heating your house. It's usually about kind of 8080, or so percent of a home emission, home emissions hot water is, is around 15 to 20% just to give an idea of sort of how it fits into the relative picture. But ultimately, I wouldn't say, you know, do one over the other, unless you know, if you have, if you have a hot water tank that's broken, replace that with a with an electric tank or heat pump, hot water tank. Don't, don't just say, Oh, it's only 20% I shouldn't do that one. It's still worth it. Every little appliance that you can get off of fossil fuels is one step closer to then being able to disconnect from the gas utility or what have you, and sets you up for, ultimately, like, a little bit of savings too, because you're no longer paying for that delivery fee to have access to that fossil fuel in your house. So cooking, cooking is cooking is probably, to be honest, like, the most fun of all of these just because, you know, it impacts your daily life. If, like, hot water and heating and cooling are one of those things where you don't like, I don't think about my heat pump unless it's not working properly, which we haven't had an issue with. But, you know, it just sits there and it does, it does its thing, and I'm happy to have it off of fossil fuels. But for cooking, switching, for us switching. We switched from a gas stove to an induction stove about a year ago, and it's amazing. Like, I've got little kids, and I love that. I feel comfortable teaching them how to cook on this stove just because of the way the induction stove works. You're not the whole cooktop doesn't get heated up in the same way you accidentally leave, like a rag or a paper towel on the stove, not going to catch on fire. We did have a few of those incidences with our former gas stove and like, it's really quick. I know that there's a lot of stats and data about how quick you can heat up water, but it's one of those things that you don't believe it until you sort of experience it yourself. So yeah, so we got, we got a nice slick induction stove, because our gas stove was kind of reaching its end of life, and we are starting to smell some of the gas as well, even when it wasn't on, which I know is an issue, that's, that's, you know, something that's, that's hazardous for our help. And you know, there's a lot of research and evidence out there related to like respiratory issues and gas related cooking. So if you do have a gas stove and aren't able to afford to switch now, make sure you're using your exhaust, like your range hood properly, not just when you're using the top, but when you're cooking in the oven too. But yeah, if you're able to switch it out, then you can just really leave here knowing that you're not, you're not using some sort of like fossil fuel to cook with. And so your house is cleaner, and you're making the planet a bit cleaner as well.

Trevor Freeman 25:56

So with that clip, we can all kind of plan out our projects for 2025 and beyond, if we haven't already great to hear that from Sarah again, those are some real, tangible actions that we can take, or we can plan to take in the near future. So the conversation that you just heard with Sarah is really focused around homeowners, but in the context of a kind of an urban setting, you know, you've got access to contractors, you've got access to expertise, you've got access to supply chains. But there are a whole host of people, our neighbors, in our fellow country, people living in remote communities that are just not connected to a national grid or a provincial grid, or even to a natural gas grid. In some cases, I had a really great chat with Gemma Pinchin from Quest Canada, who is leading some research on how rural and remote communities, including many indigenous areas, can engage in the energy transition equitably and sustainably. And we talked about some of the challenges that those areas and communities face. So have a listen to this chat with Gemma Pinchin.

Gemma Pinchin 27:09

Through quest projects, particularly the net zero community accelerator, which works with communities to the end goal is to create community energy and emissions plan we saw, and also through policy work and those kinds of pieces, we saw that there was the net zero transition is sort of chugging along, but there's kind of been a gap. The Transition tends to focus more on the urban context. You know, urban population centers, the big cities, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, those kinds of places, and that we saw as leaving out a really big chunk of Canadians. I think the statistic off the top of my head is 1/5 of Canadians live in rural and remote places. So it's not a small statistic. So we wanted to make sure that, as the net zero transition was moving along and progressing, that this large group of Canadians weren't forgotten about, and the net zero transition is going to rely, and has been relying, on rural land, rural populations, you know, to house Renewable Energy for Food production as well as carbon sequestration. So leaving this big group of people out is just kind of inconceivable, I guess. And what quests saw was that this was happening. So we started this research project to sort of make sure that those voices were being heard and considered as Canada moves through the net zero transition. So I think there's this idea that a one size fits all solution for every community, and that solutions that work in urban centers will work in rural centers, and that's just not the case. For example, something obvious like transportation, and my literature review highlighted that within urban centers, the most sustainable option would obviously be public transport. But if you apply that same lens to a rural community. You know, cars are bad, and we shouldn't be using them. Rural communities, it's almost impossible to be sustainable in net zero because they don't have the public transport option. So in that context, looking at it with a different lens, looking at it with a rural lens, you would look at sort of like consolidating car trips or making sure that services like health care and groceries and you know, the things that we take for granted in urban centers, making sure those are close, like they're kept in communities, like a lot of services are kind of moving out of rural communities. And that doesn't necessarily seem like a net zero issue, but when people in those communities have to drive, like, three times as long to get to their doctor, that's a huge, you know, emissions issue, you know. And it's just it was an interesting look at the way that we're even myself, before I was doing this, I was like, well, cars are bad, like, you know, like, gas, cars aren't great for emissions, but the reality is, for rural communities, they need this transportation that there's no there's no other way for them to get around, and it would be incredibly isolating, and you can't function as a society if you're just stuck in your house, you know, so having that different lens, and looking at it in a different context, I think that's really, really important as we move rural communities through this net zero transition. Well, in those communities that aren't connected to, you know, natural gas or the electricity grid, diesel used to be their only option. You know, modern life, we need electricity power like we need to power modern life. You can't have a modern existence without some form of power. So, you know, diesel, they are completely reliant on diesel, the ones that aren't connected. I mean, it's frustrating because there's these communities do tend to be quite far away from the power grid infrastructure. So, it's usually considered economically non-viable to connect those remote communities to the provincial power grids, because these communities are also very small. So it's a small number of people that you would have to spend all this money for the infrastructure to get, you know, the power lines to them and Canada, Ontario, Canada, both of them are very big, so there's many communities that exist quite far away from power lines or existing grid infrastructure. So yeah,diesel just it's kind of been their only option for power to have a modern existence up until, I would say, Now, well, recently. So I think in terms of, I mean, for rural and indigenous communities, I definitely think we need more research like what I'm doing, I think these are voices that haven't necessarily been heard, and if we're going to have an energy transition, we need to include these voices. And I think the best way to do that is to sort of do research like mine and figure out what, what their needs are, and how we can, how we can progress to that next step, there's, I mean, there's some amazing thinking, specifically of like, indigenous organizations that are already doing great work in this, this space, like indigenous clean energy and the Center for Indigenous Environmental Research. So they're, they're already doing this, but just consolidating all of that, that, and having people governments actually listen, I think is really, really important. I think, yeah, those voices just need to be heard and listened to. Otherwise, we're not going to get anywhere. It'll be like you said, like we just putting in technology and then just kind of, like leaving it there, and that's not, it's not going to that's not going to work. We're not going to get anywhere with that, that sort of approach. So making sure you know, local context is understood and local voices are heard.

33:33

And finally, to wrap up this episode, I wanted to share a clip of a conversation that I had with two really brilliant folks from EY Global, Greg Guthridge and Nicholas Hancock. I talked to Greg and Nicholas about the fact that, in the end, we are all end users of energy. It doesn't matter what your role is in the energy transition. It doesn't matter where you live, where you work. We're all consumers of energy, and we all need to live in homes that have heat and cooling in some places of world. We work in buildings that are like that. We need to get around and charge our devices and cook and so we all have a stake in this. We all have a role in this. And my conversation with Greg and Nicholas really talked about their work in helping industry and businesses navigate this energy transition and inspire and influence action amongst all kinds of consumers, because not everybody approaches the energy transition in the same way. And it was really great to chat with Nicholas and Greg about how they see the approach to the energy transition with consumers.

Greg Guthridge 34:41

Yeah, Trevor, I'm glad you brought up the word customer, because we use that word as kind of an overarching term. And let me maybe, if you don't mind, I'll dive in a little bit more on that, because customer is actually, you know, I'll use it on occasion, but it's actually a bit of an old fashioned. And believe it or not, it's that we try to use the term consumer, or, even better, omisumer, when we talk about the participants in the energy experience moving forward. And we're picking these words carefully, because customer kind of implies a one way interaction. Consumer implies that you're dealing with a customer or a participant that's, that's two way that's engaging, you know, in a much more active capacity. And then you get into omnisumer, which is the, what we believe, really the consumer of the future. These are participants that are, you know, multi channel, Multi Product, multi provider, a many to many kind of experience. So you'll hear me use them all interchangeably. But really, what we're trying to convey is that, you know, the good old days of somebody at the end of the value chain just receiving a bill for our energy that they take for granted is disappearing. Now to your actual question, you know, around, you know, the different strata of consumers. We do think of it in terms of, there's residential customers, you know, the mass market, the people at home, and then we have a number of other sort of major categories that, that we think about. There's small and medium businesses, large, commercial and industrial. There's a category which we call mush, which is municipal and universities and schools and hospitals. And then there's a, you know, kind of new categories of consumers that are forming a peer to peer and prosumer, type of consumers that that are trading energy, you know, they've got, they might have electric vehicles or solar or storage, and they're not just consuming electricity for their own benefit. They're actually selling it back into the grid or to others, and, you know, becoming more of a business partner along the way. So the takeaway here is that what used to be a passive, one way customer experience is now leaning into a much more two way, engaged and much more complex consumer experience between the energy provider and their participants. Trevor, I'm going to start the response to this, and then I'm going to hand it over to Nicholas Hancock, who leads our research, to give a bit more of a some color commentary on how we structured our research, but to start up with we, we really, you know, make about four or five years ago, we started to really think about the supply and demand of the energy transition, and a lot of focus around the world is on the supply side, building the infrastructure, building in New, renewable and green and sustainable sources, getting all of the technology to get, you know, cleaner power from one place to another, from an engineering perspective, and what we really started to realize is that as part of the energy transition, if you think about it, we're trying to do a generation of change in just a couple of decades. And on the demand side of this equation, we've got a bunch of very complex consumers, consumers that you know interact and behave irrationally with different behaviors. Some will be very excited about the energy transition. Others will be very reticent, and everything in between. And so in order for the energy transition to accelerate and to achieve the benefits that we're all looking for, we need to find a way to engage the consumer in ways which, frankly, are going to really push the envelope with consumers. So we started our research program, and Nicholas Hancock, who's on, has been leading the charge. And I think Nick, if you don't mind, can you give us a quick overview on the global nature of the research and how we've approached it?

Nicholas Handcock 39:00

Yeah, absolutely. So we started our research program about three years ago, really trying to take a global view mixing regions that are both, some of them really leading out there on the front edges of the energy transition. So we've got countries, for example, like Sweden, that are, you know, kind of further down the path as well as, you know, North America, which is, I would say, a little bit more in the middle. And then we've got some countries that are maybe lagging or taking their own paths in the energy transition, we've included countries like China, Singapore. We included Indonesia last year. So really, a global view of what are consumers kind of thinking in terms of how they approach the energy transition, what sort of products and services are they interested in, and what are the values and preferences that they bring to it when it comes to their energy providers, but also a broader ecosystem of providers that we see emerging out there, you know, who are they really interested in turning to when it comes to advice, when it comes to learning about solutions, purchasing them, and even things like, for example, control over solutions in the home, which when it comes to energy flexibility in the future is really important. We've been exploring how to different consumers approach and feel about this. And so what we did is we developed a survey. We're entering our fourth year of doing that. Now we work with a third party to do those surveys online across the globe. So it is sort of an independent third party that helps us to perform those and then we take those results back and take a look at what we see. And to your point, Trevor around, sort of the voices of the transition we've been looking at, how do some of those different groups break out? What are the different values of different aspects of those consumers out there? Because even sitting around the dinner table, I'm sure everybody can feel we don't all have the same opinions when it comes to energy, and even more so, when it starts to come to things like changes to your home or changes to your vehicles. So that's really what we've been exploring for the last number of years. You know, what we did is, having looked at all these different markets, we found some pretty interesting similarities and the percentages of the population that fit into these five categories. It varies quite significantly, market by market, country by country, geography by geography, but there is some there's a way for us to more simply think about a incredibly complex, fragmented, distributed customer base, residential, mass market customer base into what we think are really simply five different categories. And we the organization of these five categories. We've thought about them from a behavioral perspective, from a value from you know, what's their interests and how do they plan to engage? And sort of in sequence here, I'll talk about the five, and I'll put them in the order of from most active to least active. I'll describe each of these. And the key thing here to keep in mind is that there's no wrong place to be as a residential customer, and you can actually flip around. You can move from one place to another almost overnight. So it's quite a fluid approach here. But the first category is what we call the energy champions. They're the savvy customers. They're actually the customers that have been the first to move and the ones that we see in the news already, they're probably already using new energy products and services in their home. They might have solar on the roof. They could potentially have storage. They might already be using an electric vehicle. We make fun of this category a little bit. They're usually the ones that pre order their iPhone. They might already have a have a have an interest in the new Tesla truck or some other, you know, device. They're absolutely the innovators. They're the early movers, and they're interested in spending time researching. They're going to pay attention to where their energy source is coming from, and they're going to be quite active. So those are the energy champions, the next category is what we call the energy enthusiasts, and this is actually the one that that we have to pay the most attention to. They're the fast followers. They're the energy conscious category. And when they when they observe what the champions are doing, and when they get a bit more comfortable and they start to move, a actually will influence the whole market, and as the enthusiasts maybe slightly a little more cautious, but they're also, you know, the fast followers. So once they can see the value proposition, once they're convinced that the technologies and capabilities are for real, then they're going to move. They may not pre order their iPhone, but they're probably pretty close in terms of thinking about how they're going to advance into the energy market. The next category is the novice category, or the agnostics. And what's interesting about these this category is this segment of customers or consumers. They they're actually, you know, pretty passive. They can see the value proposition. They can see that there's, there's a lot of people taking interest in it. But for a number of different reasons, they're not moving. They're very novice, they're very they're very agnostic, and it's because they're starting to think about other things like, well, all right, I can see that I can save money, or I can do something that will improve the environment, but it's just going to take too much time, or I have other priorities or whatever. So as a as an industry, we need to find a way to kind of activate and excite. We need to make it as effortless and frictionless as possible for this category of consumers to move, and they will move, and they will do things, but they're just influenced by a whole lot of other variables that, that you know, that, that they believe are a higher priority. The fourth category is what we call the bystanders, or the skeptics, and they are the ones that are a little bit they're not, they're bit mistrusting, frankly, of the messaging around the energy transition, around sustainability or environmental and they're probably going to take a fairly skeptic approach to, is this for real? Is it really going to provide me benefit? Is it really going to, you know, advance my personal capabilities. And so what's interesting about this group is they're, they're actually very interested in new energy products and services, but for different reasons. So they're going to want, you know, more control. They're going to want, maybe, off grid capabilities. And so they they're actually as interested as the others, but the way you approach them is going to be very, very different. And the final category are the allies. And this is a, you know, energy is a household necessity, and this category is very dependent. There they might have, you know, income challenges. They might have other challenges that that that we have to look after. It is a critical household service that we provide, and we need to make sure that we look after, you know, the low income, the vulnerable, the medical dependencies that you find in the allies or the dependent category. So the range of consumers across these five will vary. We've got a great little quiz that you can take out there on ey.com or you can go out and answer some questions, and it'll tell you which kind of consumer you are today. But it's yeah, we see that most consumers will fit into one of these five categories and then move from there, depending on what's happening in their life experiences.

Trevor Freeman 46:49

Okay, well, there you have it. I hope that those clips give you a sense of some of the different aspects of the energy transition, what it is and how it impacts all of us. I really encourage you, if you haven't already listened to those, to go back and have a listen to those and other episodes from this year. I think it's been a great year of great conversations, and what I hope comes through, not just the conversations you've heard today, but all the episodes that we have is this idea that there is hope, and that may be kind of a funny thing to hear, but oftentimes, when we're hearing about climate change and the energy transition and the challenges that we face, it can be discouraging, but there's some really great and interesting things happening and some innovation that's happening. And as someone that works in this space, I think it's really important to be aware of the context that we work in, but also be optimistic and to focus on the really cool and great things that we're doing. And I think that that goes across most, if not all, of the guests that I've had on the show this year, really hearing their passion and their hope for what is to come. So have a listen. Take some hope from that as you relax over the holidays, as we round out this year. So as we round out this episode, I do want to give another thanks to all the guests that we've had on the show this year. We certainly couldn't do this without the fantastic and amazing people that we bring on to chat with. Goodness knows, you don't want to just hear me ramble on episode after episode. So really appreciate people taking the time to come and share their thoughts and insights with us. I also want to say a huge thank you to the team that is behind pulling these episodes together. This is a multi person contribution with folks across Hydro Ottawa and our partners that help us pull this together. And I want to especially call out Morgan Barnes for his help and really pulling the content and the feel and the texts together behind these episodes. It's me rambling here behind the microphone, but really Morgan and I work together to pull together what the theme and the thread of these episodes are so big. Thanks to Morgan for his thought leadership in this and his dedication and hard work and helping pull these things together. Morgan, you're the best. Okay, so with that, my team is always kind of after me to answer these rapid fire questions that you often hear at the end of episodes, but they also gave me an out because, because I don't intend to do that. So the out is what is one of my favorite holiday traditions. So I'm going to, I'm gonna pivot and pull that one as we go into the holiday season here. And I think I was reflecting on this, I think one of my favorite holiday traditions, at least in the last little while, as I've kind of built a family and have a growing family, is going and getting that Christmas tree. And a number of years ago now, we moved houses, and it's not a big house. It's a house in Ottawa here, but we have this small part of the back of our house that has a really high ceiling. And so as we were out the first year, we always go to one of those, cut your own cut your own tree farms and cut our tree down, and I had this idea that, Oh, we've got a really high ceiling, so we've got to get a really tall tree. And that kind of started a bit of a precedent now, where I can't go out and get just a little tree anymore. The kids want, well, I say the kids, it's probably more me, but the kids and I both want the that tall tree that kind of scrapes the ceiling as we put it up. So that's always fun trying to find that right tree, the perfect shape to cut it down, to haul it back to the car, and try not to pull too many muscles doing it. So I'd say that's one of my favorite holiday traditions, and then to sit in the house and have that nice, fresh smelling Christmas tree for at least a few weeks. So, that's my favorite holiday tradition. Thanks for joining us in 2024 we really appreciate you listening. We appreciate the conversations. As always, don't hesitate to reach out to us, Thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com Is our email address. We would love to hear from you, love to hear your ideas and thoughts on topics and guests. So there we are at the end of the year, and we look forward to connecting with you again in 2025 where we will be back with more episodes, more guests, more conversations about energy in the energy transition. Thanks so much for listening. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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The holiday season is here and 2024 is coming to a close. It’s a good time to reflect, so we’re looking back at five of the top episodes of thinkenergy in 2024. Join your host Trevor Freeman, as he unwraps the year’s most important topics surrounding the future of energy in Canada. Listen in for how experts are guiding change with insightful data and how they’re communicating facts about the climate crisis. Plus, learn about new energy policies and ongoing updates to the electricity grid.

Related links

• Episode 134 (What the data tells us): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/what-the-data-tells-us/
• Episode 122 (Climate communication): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/summer-rewind-climate-communication-motivating-change-with-re-climate/
• Episode 138 (Energy policies deep dive, part 1): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/energy-policy-deep-dive-with-nicholas-rivers-part-1/
• Episode 136 (Modernizing the electricity grid): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/summer-rewind-modernizing-the-electricity-grid-with-the-advanced-distribution-management-system/
• Episode 135 (Modernizing Ontario’s energy future): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/vision-quest-modernizing-ontarios-energy-future-with-the-eda/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrottawa.com

Hey, everyone, welcome back. Depending on where you live, you may notice that it's getting a little chilly outside. There is actually a couple snowflakes in the air or even on the ground, depending, again, on where you live. Up here in Ottawa, where I am, it's definitely starting to feel like we're getting close to winter, maybe not quite there yet, but like we're getting close to winter, which does seem to be happening later and later every year, because we're near the end of the year, we thought it would be a good idea to kind of look back at Think Energy over the last 12 months, and this has been an interesting year, both for Think Energy as well as for the industry we work in for Think Energy. It's been an interesting year because we transitioned hosts, and that brings me into the picture. So, I took over the hosting chair earlier this year, and I've really had a great time having conversations with folks and getting to dive into topics that either I know a little about, but not the full picture, or sometimes don't even know that much about. So, it's really been fun to do that, and it was fun to look back over the year at the different episodes that I've recorded and get a sense for where we've come with the show. The industry we work in has also been full of changes, and I think that is just the new reality. Every year, at the end of the year, I could probably say, wow, that was a really impactful year., things changed a lot. Hopefully all that change is in the right direction towards this energy transition, towards cleaning our energy and getting off fossil fuels. But like anything, change will be a bit up and down. Today, we're going to look back at the year and highlight some of the moments from our top episodes. These are the episodes that resonated with you, the listener the most, the ones that kind of got the most listens and the most reaction from and it's fun to pull out some of the impactful moments for us from that, from those episodes. So, in the holiday tradition, we're gonna go back and pull out some holiday treats from our from our favorite episodes, if you will. We're going to start by going all the way back to April, when I had the pleasure to chat with David Coletto, the founder and CEO of abacus data. So, David gave us a snapshot of what Canadians are really thinking about when it comes to the future of energy and our planet. This conversation is the perfect starting point for this episode, because it really lays the groundwork for understanding what Canadians think and feel about the energy landscape and how we will move forward. So, what did David's research reveal about how Canadians prioritize climate change amongst all the other things that are vying for their intention? Here's what he had to say when I asked him about evolving attitudes towards this pressing issue.

David Coletto 03:24

Coming out of the pandemic, though, and I think the defining mindset up today, which is really important to understand, to then understand why people will be resistant to certain public policy choices on climate, or may not be ready to fully embrace a transition, is that most Canadians right now, and I say most, I mean, like 80 to 90% of them, I believe, have a mindset that's very much tied to scarcity. And that is that is a real shift. And what that means is that a lot of the things that people have come to expect they can get in their lives are either more expensive, harder to find or get or they fear losing what they already have, and those are often tied to issues like housing, the general cost of living, and healthcare. And so that mindset then causes us to view public policy decisions, broader economic forces and our day to day lives to a very different lens than one where I describe as there's plenty of everything, right, and a plenty mindset means I can take risks. I can perhaps pay a little bit more, even if the perception is that I pay more, even if it's not true, in order to achieve other kinds of goals. But when I'm the perception of struggling every day just to get the kind of life I want, or I'm the one in three Canadians who feel like they've completely fallen behind, that is going to make it much harder for me to be persuaded to do things that feel like a big change, or feel like they're going to disrupt my life more than it already is. Now, if we expand that and then we say, okay, so how do we overlay that? Add on to views around the broader issues around climate change, energy transition, I think what's clear in the long-term trends is the vast majority, 90 plus percent of Canadians believe climate change is real and is caused by human behavior. Overwhelming majorities believe that we that's actually a crisis that we have to do something about. And in the shorter term, the last, I would say, 12 to 18 months, as a result of you and me, Trevor, I don't know about you, I grew up in, you know, in Ontario. I never once in my entire life stepped out on a June morning and saw smokey skies and, you know, take my dog for a walk and bring her home, and she smells like smoke. That was never part of my experience. My wife grew up in Alberta, much more likely to happen in in in Western Canada over time. So, I think there's also become a realization that's firmed up, that if we don't do something about this, that it's going to have not just theoretical consequences for the earth, but actual implications for my life. Won't be able to do certain things, my health might be compromised, the value of my property might be at risk, I may not be able to ensure and so that, I think, has created far more desire or demand to see action. But what's muted it, at least in the short term, is that scarcity mindset, where people have basically said, including young people, which is the most fascinating thing, is people often assume younger Canadians are more likely to, you know, say climate change is a priority. For the first time and probably ever that I've tracked this, we now have younger Canadians. If you're under 30, you're the least likely to say climate change is one of your top three priorities. And that's because other issues, like housing, like economic security, like the cost of living, have overtaken them. And so short-term fear of short term scarcity has, at least for now, pushed down fears about the longer term scarcity that climate change will create.

Trevor Freeman 07:00

Super interesting. I really like this conversation with David, because it was really great to get into the psychology of climate action and some of the barriers we need to overcome. I mean, there's a risk of thinking about climate science and the collective action that we have to take as being very scientific and data driven, and a lot of sense as it is, but we are all still people in the mix here, and we need to choose to take action, and how a country and a society, and in fact, that globe chooses to take action is really dependent on how we feel and think about it. So, this was a great conversation, and good to get that insight from David. It really kind of gets us to ask ourselves, what is going to mobilize and motivate the majority of people to take action when their focus is on more immediate needs? And that kind of ties into the next conversation that I want to highlight, which is actually a conversation that my predecessor, Dan Seguin had with Amber Bennett, the deputy director of rec climate, who talked about how we can perhaps move the needle when it comes to a large segment of the population that wants to take action but aren't entirely sure how. So, Amber shed some light on how to engage this movable middle, if you will, those people who believe in climate change, but maybe need that extra nudge to prioritize action. So let's hear what Amber had to say.

Amber Bennett 08:29

I feel compelled to say that I think the term movable middle is used differently by different people. I think when the context of, you know, the work that we do, it kind of comes out of, you know, some of the themes that I was talking about in the last in the last question or last answer. It's this idea that, you know, people are kind of undecided, or they're conflicted about an issue, so they could move either one way or the other, but they're not, at the moment, oppositional, right? So, if you think about, you know, a broader population, there is a segment, you know, of Canadians whose identities are really built around the idea that they don't believe in climate change, they're not going to support, you know, climate action and whatnot. There's also on the other side, a whole group of Canadians whose identity are built around I'm a climate activist and I'm a climate advocate and, you know, and I'm an environmentalist, and so they're on the other side, but most of us just kind of we live in the middle. Some are more well informed than others, but for the most part, people are concerned right in the middle. They have they you know, when they ask yes, we want the government to act, we are highly supportive of it. But when it comes down to it, it's this tension around the fact that, because they may not be well informed, they're not thinking about this. They have many competing priorities. They're kind of undecided, or sometimes they're just conflicted about an issue, right? Because, on the one hand, as an example, yeah, I think we, we absolutely need renewable energy. We need lots of, you know, solar panels. I just don't want them on my house. Or we need lots of, you know, solar renewable solar farms. I just don't want them all over the landscape that I cherish from my childhood. So there are many things that you know are underneath of that are operating underneath for people that kind of create some conflict for them. So, people, so when we talk about the movable middle really, I think what's important is to acknowledge that most people are concerned, they want and they support action, but they're undecided, potentially, about one particular aspect or issue of it, or there's some other kind of thing that's happening for them that's creating a conflict, or they're kind of uninformed. So, you know, I think that you know one example, or rather, I'll back up that uninformed piece is particularly important right now as we see more and more kind of organized misinformation and disinformation, right? So, as an example, when I'm in focus groups, I can predict with very, you know, the lot of certainty. What are some of the kind of key narratives that are going to surface where people are kind of undecided. One of them might be, well, EV batteries are actually worse, you know, for the environment, than, you know, driving a car. Or there's no way that we're going to be able to electrify everything the grids can't support it. Or it may be solar panels actually create more emissions when you produce them than they save in their lifetime. So these kind of, like very dominant or kind of reoccurring pieces of information, and when people who are not thinking about this a lot or deeply as much as maybe you or I or people who are listening to this, so when, when people encounter these, this kind of information or confusion about what are the actual solutions, they really don't know what to think, right? So, like, a third of us sit within that category, right, of I actually don't know how to make sense of the information that that I'm hearing, right, and I don't trust so much of it, because I know that, you know, I know about misinformation. I know that I shouldn't be, you know, trusting everything that I hear, etc. So that's kind of the deal with the movable middle, right? So they're belief climate change is real, they're not climate deniers. They just may be conflicted or undecided or just not, you know, as informed, because they're not thinking about it on a daily basis. So, you know, as an example, when we talk about the challenge, you know, part of this is really, I think, being more clear about the cause of climate change, but also, what are some of the challenges that we're seeing that are related to climate change within our communities. You know, I was listening to a program, CBC program, the other day, and there's an entire community in Newfoundland that's actually moving back from the water. And this is, you know, after the aftermath of of hurricane Fiona and whatnot. So, you know, some of the challenges that we're seeing, what's the challenge that we're trying to overcome? And ideally, I would right size that at a community scale, right? So people feel overwhelmed when it's my personal, individual problem, but if we can begin to talk about this as a community challenge, then people are much more likely to engage because they don't feel like they're in it all on their own.

14:34

Playing into that idea that it takes a village to tackle climate change, let's go to one of our other popular shows this season with our guest, Nicholas Rivers, who's an associate professor of Public Policy and International Affairs from the University of Ottawa. I had a great chat with Nicholas about the role of public policy when it comes to action related to climate change, and we can't really discuss the world of energy in 2024 and not talk about one of the biggest and maybe most misunderstood topics in Canadian energy, carbon pricing. Carbon pricing is one of those things that we all hear about. We all kind of have an idea of what it is, but maybe it's not exactly what we think it is. So, it was really helpful to get Nicholas to break it down for us and to help us really understand it. So, let's have a listen to my chat with Nick Rivers about carbon pricing.

Nicholas Rivers 15:32

Let me start out by saying, What's the point of carbon pricing? Because I think it's not evident for lots of people. It seems like a crazy idea. The basic idea is that we live in a market economy, and a market economy is one where the market responds to the cost of producing something and the desire of people to buy something, and so the market sets the prices, and the market determines how much gets produced in response to the prices, and how much people buy in response to the prices. It's not directed by some other entity, and the market economy tends to work best when the prices of things reflect their costs. So, if I want to go buy some bread, the idea in a market economy is that the price of the bread that I buy should reflect the cost to produce the bread right, the cost of the grains that are used to make it, and the cost of labor and the machines that are required to make it. And if that does reflect the cost, and there's a motivation for the bread maker to make the bread for me and so it'll be there when I want to buy it. And the idea that behind this carbon pricing is that there is a cost to me producing carbon emissions, right? So it the cost is it makes the world a little warmer, and there's a cost in lives and livelihoods and Well Being from climate change, but I don't pay a price, right? I don't pay the cost. I'm not required to pay the cost, because this is a non market good. No one's producing climate change. It's a public good. And so the idea behind carbon pricing is, hey, the market doesn't work for this kind of good. One way we can fix it is by attaching a price to carbon emissions. So it's just like bread. When people, you know, use it, they have to pay the price to reflect the cost. And so that's the kind of basic fundamental. And the idea that economists have had for a long time is that if we properly price carbon emissions, people are going to use an awful lot less of them, because now their actions now their actions reflect the costs. Okay, so, so that's the kind of basic idea behind carbon pricing. Canada has brought in a carbon price federally in 2019 provinces implemented carbon prices, some of them much before that, so Alberta brought in an industrial carbon price in 2007, BC brought in a carbon price throughout all emit for all emitters in 2008 and Quebec as well. So, the federal carbon price now is kind of the law of the land, in the sense that in that 2016 meeting that I mentioned, where the federal and provincial governments agreed about carbon pricing. The agreement was, we should all have a carbon price. Let's like this a level playing field. Let's all do our piece. And the federal government kind of took that message back and developed a federal carbon pricing benchmark, which said, hey, provinces, you can do your own carbon price as long as it's at least, you know, this certain level of stringency. But if you don't do it, we'll bring in our federal carbon price instead. Okay, so provinces have the ability to do something on their own, and if they don't do anything, the federal government will bring in a carbon price. And so what we've got now is a kind of a system that's a bit piecemeal, where some provinces have a their own carbon price, and other provinces have not implemented a carbon price, and the federal government has brought one in their place. The Federal carbon price has two parts. One is a consumer facing part, so for people like you and me, and for people or for for institutions that are not giant emitters, like a university or hospital or a mall, for example, they all are subject to what the federal government calls a fuel Levy and what the rest of us call a carbon tax. Big industrial emitters, like a pulp and paper plant or a steel plant or a big electricity generator are subject to a different scheme. It's still a carbon price, but the way it works is a little different, and it's called an output based performance standard. So I'll speak about each of them briefly on the industry side. The way it works is that each facility that produces a lot of emissions gets a target, and it's usually a same target for everyone in the sector. So the target could be like the target is for a steel sector you got to produce steel with a carbon intensity of less than, say, one ton of carbon per ton of steel that you produce. So they get that target, and if they manage to get their facility emissions below the target, they get a reward in terms of a carbon price. And if they if their emissions are above the target, they have to pay a carbon price.

Trevor Freeman 20:32

A financial reward. So they get some sort of incentive to being below that benchmark.

Nicholas Rivers 20:35

They basically get carbon credits, which have a financial value bet you so you can trade them for dollars. So that's the way it works. On the industry side, on the smaller emitter side, like you and me, it works a little differently. There's a levy on fuels. So any fuel that we might buy, like natural gas or gasoline or diesel, that contains carbon or releases carbon when it's combusted, is in a fee is imposed in proportion to the amount of carbon that's released from that fuel when it's burned. But and you and I are required to pay that fee. Now, we don't pay it directly to government. It's imposed at the retail level, so the you know, the gasoline station will pay the fee on our behalf, but then it'll raise the price of gasoline in the amount of the fee. Gotcha, that's the main part of the system. The other thing with respect to this consumer carbon price is that all that revenue that government collects is put into a pot and then it's rebated back to us. And you've probably heard about this, if you check your bank account, there'll be a Canada carbon rebate in your bank account, or at least, each household will get one, not each person. That's right, so it depends on who files their taxes first in each household who gets the rebate. So you want to be the first in your household to get your taxes done, but the money basically is raised from consumers in proportion to how much fuel they burn, and then the government collects it up and rebates it back to consumers equally for all households. Okay, so a lot of people are confused about this part. It's like, Why? Why would they go to this trouble? Why would they raise money and then rebate it back and this is an important point. This isn't a traditional tax, right? In a traditional tax, government implementing the tax to raise revenue to, you know, buy, build a bridge or to fund a school or something like that. That's not what's going on here. The point of this fuel Levy, or carbon tax is to provide incentives for people to change their behavior, and in particular, it's to fill fix this market failure we talked about earlier, where the cost of carbon emissions isn't reflected in their price. And so when the carbon price gets high, it will make a lot more sense for us as individuals to choose the Low Carbon action as opposed to the high carbon action, save money doing it. And on the rebate side, the rebate side, the rebate is designed so that we don't get punished, we don't lose our you know, we don't become lower income as a result of this. And so it goes back to each of us equally. So no matter whether I do this, you know, whether I take the Low Carbon action or I don't take the Low Carbon action, I get the same amount of rebate back regardless.

23:19

I was really glad to have Nicholas explain carbon pricing to us on that episode and in that conversation, it seems really complex at first, but really when you break it down, it's fairly easy to understand, regardless of how you feel about it. It's not that complex of a topic. So speaking of complex things. Our next highlight takes us really deep into the nitty gritty of electricity grids, which is the world that I live in. So I had this really interesting chat with my colleague, Jenna Gillis, who is the director of distribution engineering and asset management here at Hydro Ottawa. I talked to Jenna about the technological advancements that are happening in grid modernization and more specifically, what Hydro Ottawa is doing on our grid modernization roadmap. Jenna explained how this exercise of modernization is so critical and crucial to get us to that future of energy that we can envision where we electrify things, where there are distributed energy resources, there's more automation. We're more efficient on our grid. In order to get there, there's some work to do. So let's listen to what Jenna had to say about building a grid that's ready for the future and delivering more reliable and sustainable energy.

Jenna Gillis 24:40

So our overall grid modernization strategy is guided by five key objectives. So I'll go through each one of those and give you kind of a high level blurb on what it is that we're trying to achieve with grid modernization. So the first one is enhancing reliability, so the more monitoring. Using devices, you have in the field to understand the state of the grid, the more remote capabilities you have in order to operate and, you know, isolate and restore the better reliability you have. The ultimate goal is moving towards an automated process where you have all of the foundation of the equipment, the communication channels and the auto the analytics to make decisions, and you can get outages restored much more quickly. The next one is what we call flexibility. So adaptive grid flexibility, so we want to make sure that the grid is dynamic to all of these changing energy demands that we're seeing come online. So things like heat pumps or electric vehicles or solar generation or battery we want to provide more options for the connections and be able to have the grid respond dynamically to these changing conditions. Next one we have is fortified resilience and robust security. So resilience is really about the ability to do to withstand disruptions. And I'm talking about that from, you know, a physical asset perspective, but maybe also a technology perspective as well. We want to make sure that we have a good diversity to be able to recover from disruptions. And we know there will always be disruptions, as we've seen, kind of with the weather in the little last little while, and then as we get more and more connected, we need to make sure we're safeguarding assets from cyber threats core to everything we do. We do, we want to make sure that we're thinking about the customer, and so we're looking towards strengthening customer engagement empowerment. So we've talked about, you know, getting more data back from the field and being able to unlock new new ways of doing things, new tools, and providing some of this information back to the customers to help them be better informed about their energy uses and their their low profile and what they want to do with their equipment. And then finally, sustainable decarbonation and renewable energy integration. So we really want to look at reducing our carbon footprint by optimizing our planning and operations processes. So we talked about a little bit about automation, you know, that will reduce our need to roll trucks for crews to physically go out in the field and operate devices. And basically everything above we talked about was, you know, being able to incorporate renewable energy sources. We want to make sure that we have the ability to bring these resources online and leverage them. So hopefully I've done some justification in terms of, you know, mapping out how complex this actually is to deploy. And so our grid modernization roadmap is set out basically a set of initiatives over the next 10 plus years. So we've kind of, you know, got it, got a good handle on the objectives we want to unlock over the next 10 years. And so we've laid out, what do we need to do to unlock those, and what's the timing of that? So we also need to understand that this is going to be dynamic and constantly evolving with, you know, technology or market drivers. So you know, the this roadmap is only as good as it is today, until, you know, something changes tomorrow, and we recognize that this is going to have to be dynamic and evolving. So due to the complexity of it, we decided to basically bucket the program into six different component layers so that we can really get a sense of how one feeds into the next, as I kind of talked a little bit about the pyramid before. So the first one is physical infrastructure. Number two is sensing and measurement. The third is communication. Fourth is data management and analytics. Number five is control and optimization. And then finally, the last, number six is business and regulatory. And so all of our initiatives fit underneath one of those six components. And with all that change, we need to have the right people. We need the right people, we need the right skill set. And some of these skills are things that we haven't done before. So these are new responsibilities, new skill sets, to the organization. And I'm going to put a little plug in here is that we're hiring right now. So take a look at our careers page. If I if I've painted an exciting picture and you want to be a part of this, take a look. We're hiring some of those skill sets today, and this stuff is going to span multiple years, right? So I feel like in the past, we kind of had, you know, like, oh, well, that's a five year program and then, and then you're done. No, like, this is going to be a continuous evolution, and these can span multi years. And I talked about it before. We need to be able to adapt and pivot to meet the requirements of technology and our customers, and we need to expect that. And so we need to build the that ability to stay dynamic through these multi year programs, to make sure that, you know, we maybe we need to change what our grid modernization objectives are halfway through. And that's okay. We can do that.

Teresa Sarkesian 29:39

That was great, and this type of work on the electricity grid will ensure that we have a more robust and sustainable and smart grid that will enable all kinds of innovation, like more rooftop solar, more battery storage, and really empower our customers to be part of the energy solution. You can certain. Finally, count on there being more conversation about this on the think energy podcast. Moving forward, this next year, we're going to dive into even more details about some of the changes that are happening on our grid. So for our last highlight episode of 2024 my guest Theresa Sarkesian, President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association, painted this really vivid picture of some of the changes that she's seen over the past 15 years in the industry, and talked about the need to really ramp up electricity production in the years ahead. I think this is a really important one, because it does give us a picture of how far we've come, and reminds us that as much as it feels like we are on the cusp of change and a lot is going to change, looking forward, we can't lose sight of the fact that we've really started to evolve and change already and that some great stuff has already happened. It's a powerful message to close out our year end recap and a reminder that this is a marathon, the energy transition is a marathon, not a sprint, and it's not something that we're going to complete overnight. We're not going to get there in one night. So let's listen to what Theresa had to say. I've been at the association now for 15 years. I'm just marking my 15 year anniversary. So feels really apropos to kind of reflect and look back. So I want to break down my answer into two parts. I'm going to talk to you about some, I guess, just my own personal observations about the electricity system writ large. And then I'm going to talk more about the changes in distribution. But some of the changes that I thought were really quite significant and profound, sort of when I joined the industry in 2009 I joined at a time when there was the Green Energy Act and the province was looking to connect all kinds of renewable energy generation to the electricity grid. So that was fairly significant. Another thing that was happening with the province is that they closed down coal fire generation that was pretty massive. In fact, I think at the time, it was the largest kind of carbon reduction initiative in North America. And I think even to this date today, I think it still is. So it's something that Ontario really has to be proud of. Another thing that you know at the time, I think that was fairly significant. In 2015 is just the expectation of what the demand would be. What was interesting, sort of like the past 15 years, the demand from customers for electricity was actually flat or declining, and that's all changed now, 15 years later, where we're now forecasting massive increases in in demand of energy, which could potentially be doubling in the future. And the other point I'd like to make is just the nuclear renaissance that we're having. I think when I joined the sector in 2009 I'll tell you, I think the public opinion of nuclear was actually quite low, and that's been completely turned around. Lots of geopolitical events around the world, I think, have driven that, and now that nuclear is having a huge Renaissance, and you're seeing, you know, lots of new investments in nuclear, and we're not talking about shutting down reactors anymore. We're talking about refurbishing and expanding. So those are some of the things that I've observed over the last 15 years that have really changed and for local distribution companies, I think what I have seen is a growing expectation by both government and the regulators for electric utilities to do more to both support the grid reliability and meet growing expectation from customers. So I started in the sector in 2009 it was right on the brink of implementation of smart meters and time of use. And what was interesting is that was mandated, and there were very few jurisdictions in the world that actually had mandated smart meters and time of use pricing. So again, Ontario is was one of the first. And so that was a big change for LDCs to move from, you know, smart meters and having to bring in that technology and also support the technology of time of use. I did mention the Green Energy Act at the time, we suddenly had to connect 1000s and 1000s of new solar and wind generation as well. And that was all new. There were no protocols. There were no standards for that. So that was fairly significant as well. And when I kind of fast forward to, I guess, more recently, there have been a lot of changes from government. I think they've really supported our industry. They understand the trust that we have with our customers, and they've implemented a number of new changes in terms of rate structures. They've asked us to implement ultra-low rate pricing that can support overnight electric vehicle charging, and they've also asked us to introduce a green button digital platform that allows customers to download their energy data and share with their parties. For, you know, different assessments and tools for lowering energy costs. But it's all not, you know, unicorns and kittens. There's challenges to for our sector, grid resilience was, you know, not really. People talked about it in 2009 but not like they're talking about it now, because of climate change and we are seeing more frequent storms, causing, you know, obviously outages for the customer, and also significant damage to the distribution grid. And I know that Hydro Ottawa has faced more than its fair share a very disruptive storms over the past few years. We have, yes, I can't remember which Victoria Day weekend or we had. I didn't ever know how to say it the direct show or the direct co direction. So there we were getting storms we've never even heard of before, and unfortunately, I think that is our new normal. So grid resilience is something that we are very concerned about, and we need to make sure we've got the appropriate investments for that. So those are just a few of the highlights that you know when I came into the sector, sort of things that were kind of ramping up, and then what's happening now? But I guess what I could say, the commonality is there's constant change in this sector, and what I'm seeing going forward is that change is going to be accelerated.

Trevor Freeman 36:11

Very cool. So it is really fascinating to think back 15 years ago and imagine that we didn't have smart meters. Our electricity demand was fairly flat and even declining. In some cases, it's so different than the world we're in today, and sometimes it's hard to even look at today. We're constantly looking forward into the future, and so it's important to remember where we've come from. So there you have it, folks, it's been a fascinating year in energy as it is. Every year, as I said at the beginning of this episode, I don't think there will be a year in the near future where we don't look back and say, wow, a lot has changed. A lot has happened. We've looked at everything from kind of the psychology of climate change to the nuts and bolts of grid modernization to the role of policy, and looked back at how our grid has already changed. It's really been a fascinating look back at some of these conversations. So as we wrap up this episode, I do want to extend a really big thank you to all of our amazing guests who have shared their expertise and their passion with us this year. A huge thank you to all of you, the listeners for tuning in and kind of diving into this world of energy with us, and that's really why we do this. It's to engage with you folks. And also we just really like talking about energy. We hope that these stories have kind of sparked your curiosity and ignited your imagination, maybe even inspired you to take some action, whether it's reducing your own carbon footprint, understanding, sort of your own energy needs, or how energy gets to you, supporting clean energy initiatives, or really just taking a bit of a closer look at the world of energy. With us, there is one more episode to come after this. It's going to be a feature on kind of the defining topic of the year. I won't give it away here, but surely you can guess what it is, and we'll chat with you again one more time before the end of the year. Until then, thanks for listening.

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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What are Distributed Energy Resources (DERs)? How important are they to the energy transition? Host Trevor Freeman shares how solar panels, batteries, and small-scale wind turbines are shifting from niche innovations to central figures in reshaping our energy infrastructure. Discover how these tools help reduce reliance on centralized power and empower you to generate and store your own energy, reduce grid dependency, and pave the way for a greener, more efficient, and cost-effective energy future.

Related links

● Hydro Ottawa 2021–2025 Strategic Direction: https://hydroottawa.com/sites/default/files/2022-06/Hydro_Ottawa_2021-2025_Strategic_Direction_EN.pdf

● About Ontario’s Feed-In Tariff: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/businesses/topics/ontario-s-fit-microfit-programs.html

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrottawa.com.

Hi everyone. Welcome back. Okay, so it's time for another explainer episode. Just as a reminder, I plan to do these from time to time to make sure that everyone is up to speed on some important foundational concepts, things that we talk about often on the show, that maybe we take for granted, that everybody knows what we're talking about. Because this is the kind of thing that's we start to live and breathe every day, and not all of our listeners are there as well. Today, I'd like to quickly go through something we mention a lot on the show, and we probably mentioned it using the acronym DERs, but distributed energy resources, that's the acronym der and I'll probably be referring to them as DERs here on the show from time to time. But so, I wanted to give you a bit of a basis of that. It's something that you've probably heard a number of times. It comes up in a lot of different aspects of our conversations here on the show, DER's are not necessarily brand-new technology. They're not necessarily new things, but their role in our energy transition is evolving and accelerating, and we're going to see a lot more of them as we move forward. So, I think it's important to sort of set that foundation and set the groundwork so that everybody knows what we're talking about here.

So, what are distributed energy resources? Well as the name suggests, they are small scale generation or storage resources that are located at or near the point of consumption, like our homes and our businesses. And before we talk too much about them, I think it's important to understand why they are unlike our traditional energy resources. So, for the last 100 years or so, our energy has been primarily centralized, at least in the case of electricity, especially one of the great engineering marvels of the last century that I know, I've talked about on the show before, and something that we still benefit from today is the centralized electricity grid. So, across Ontario, Canada, North America, there is this vast interconnected grid that brings relatively affordable electricity to customers from large scale, centralized generation. The generation technology of the last 100 years has made the most sense when it was built at a large scale and when it was centralized. So not everybody had a river or waterfall in their backyard for Hydroelectric Generating Station. Not everybody could build a coal or gas fire generating station in their backyard. Nor would we want that, nor would you want to have to have a coal fired generating station in your backyard. So, as we were scaling up our use of electricity in the last century, it made sense to centralize this generation, to build it big, so that it could serve the greatest number of customers and to transmit that electricity to where people used it, these types of projects, and let's include nuclear in there that haven't mentioned that yet. These are large, complex, major public projects. So you're not going to build a bunch of small ones. You're going to want to centralize that for economies of scale and things like that. So that centralized approach has worked well over the last century and will continue to be part of our energy mix moving forward. We're not getting away from centralized generation and our electricity grids. But things are changing. There are now other options on the table, and these other options are set to play a major role in our energy futures. Enter distributed energy resources or DERs. DERs are things like small scale solar or battery storage, in some cases, wind turbines and even your electric vehicle. These technologies mean that some of our energy needs can be met, not just from a distant, centralized generation station, but right from our own rooftops or our driveway. Why is this important? Well, the DERs have a big role to play in our future, and there are many benefits to de ours. So first off, let's put ourselves in the shoes of a homeowner investing in some kind of DER. Let's say solar on the rooftop. Being able to generate your own electricity gives you some control over your energy needs and costs. Think about investing in a DER, as locking in some portion of your energy costs now for the life of that equipment, regardless of what happens to sort of the market rate of electricity and electricity prices over time you've paid for that solar generation, you know what those cost, It's in today's dollars, and you've got that generation for the life of the equipments. And that kind of locks you into that. It gives you some predictability, and it insulates you from sort of what's happening in the market. You also have the opportunity to use your der in conjunction with the rate structure of your utility to really minimize your cost. So, let's say you have a battery and your utility has a time of use rate option, like we have here in Ontario. If you change your battery during an off peak time when electricity is cheap, and use it during a peak time when electricity is expensive, you can really drive your costs down. And all of the electricity you're pulling from a grid, or some large portion of it, can be at that lower off peak cost.

That brings me to my next point, which is the carbon impact of electricity. So, we talk a lot about climate change on the show. We talk a lot about the fact that really what we need to do is drive down our carbon intensity, drive down the amount of carbon we're emitting. And how much carbon is emitted from electricity generation really depends on where you live, but let's take Ontario as an example. Most of our electricity in Ontario is emissions free, so we have a large amount of nuclear. We have a lot of hydroelectricity. We have some large scale solar, a lot of wind turbines, but we do still have gas fired generation. This typically shows up during our peak times when electricity demand in the province is at its highest. So, if you can rely on your der during those peak times, your battery or your solar panels rather than the grid, you are avoiding using more carbon intensive electricity, and if we scale that up to more than just the individual perspective, the more DERs we have that reduce our overall system peaks, the less we have to rely on that carbon intensive gas fired generation, in the case of Ontario, for generation during those peak times. So DERs are a good tool to lower the carbon intensity of our electricity grid. One last point from the individual customer's perspective is resiliency and reliability outages are, unfortunately something that can't 100% be avoided, and that is increasingly so as we experience more extreme weather events related to climate change, DERs, especially when there's a battery involved, can provide some resiliency against those times when there may be a grid outage, even if it's just to power your essentials to buy some time for your utility to work on restoration. It reduces the pressure on you as a customer, when the power is out, you can kind of get by until the utility is able to restore things. So, let's zoom out a little bit. You may be wondering why someone from utility me is going on about the virtues of what you might consider to be a competing technology to our core line of business, which is supplying electricity to our customers. But DERs can actually be a huge help to our grid. And utilities are increasingly looking at how we can best enable DERs in a way that benefits all of our customers, not just those who have the solar panels on their own roofs, but everybody. In fact, at hydro Ottawa, we highlight this in our current strategic direction. We have eight key points in our strategic direction, and point number four is leverage and promote DERs to understand why it's helpful to remember that utilities have to build our grids to serve what you might consider the worst-case scenario or peak demand. This is the time when the draw of electricity from the grid is at its highest, we need to make sure that on those hot, sunny afternoons when everyone's AC is blasting and people are getting home from work or school, starting to cook dinner, starting to watch TV, plugging in their electric vehicles, etc., etc., the grid can handle all of that load, but for much of the time, demand on the grid is actually a lot less. We don't see those peaks all the time, so that means we have to build up to a capacity that isn't always being used, and with the changes that we'll see as a result of the ongoing energy transition, so electrification of heating, more electric vehicles, etc., as well as other driving factors like increased data center demand hands due to AI and the never ending March to digitize our society, we are going to see those peak demand periods, that sort of max pull from the grid get higher and higher under the traditional approach to the grid, the only answer would be to build more and more and with the pace that things are changing at. And have a listen to my last explainer episode on on the energy transition for more on that, relying only on the sort of traditional builds model would be expensive for all stakeholders, including our customers, and it would be hard for us to keep up with the pace of change. Don't get me wrong, our grid does need significant investment to expand meet customer needs. We are going to be building out the grid as we've talked about here, but that is not the only tool we have, thanks to DERs. So, imagine if we could take that peak demand that I've been mentioning, and lower it a bit, or shift some of that load from a peak time to an off-peak time. Doing so would let us get more out of our existing grid assets, and in some cases, even delay or defer some big capital investment, a new transformer, a new substation, for example, DERs will help us do that. So, any individual solar panel or battery may not make the difference, but imagine 10s or hundreds of DERs on a given feeder that might be enough to shave that peak load by a significant amount. So, something like a solar panel can be thought of as a passive benefit to the system, meaning it generates when it's sunny and up here in Canada when it's not covered in snow. So, we get the benefit when the conditions are right, but they may not always be right, so we can't necessarily rely on them all the time. But if you pair that solar array with a battery, or looking a bit into the future with an EV for example, which is basically just a battery with wheels. Now we've got some control, and that control is where the real value lies, and it's with things like batteries and EVs, but also other smart connected devices, like your thermostat, for example. So, there is a future not too far from now, where you might get a signal from your utility saying, Hey, we're getting close to our capacity on your feeder, so we'd like you to switch over to your battery, or we'd like to pause your EV charging for a few hours. Or maybe we want to bump the temperature up on your thermostat by a degree or two, so you're not cooling so much just for the next few hours, and we'll give you an incentive on your bill if you let us do that now, you might say, no, actually, I've got to get that EV charge because I'm about to head off on a weekend road trip or take the kids to soccer or whatever it might be, or no, I'm actually hosting a party tonight, so I don't want to mess with the AC right now. Thank you. So, you can opt out of that call, but most of the time, you'd likely say yes, because Sure, I mean, I'm home for the night, as long as my EV is charged by the morning. I don't care if it happens right now or in a few hours, and what's a degree or two for the next couple hours on my thermostat, I probably won't even notice, and I'll get that credit on my electricity bill, that action, that collective action, multiplied over hundreds or 1000s of customers, can be the difference between having to build new infrastructure like a transformer or even a substation or not, and that has big implications on how much the grid costs and how flexible we are with the solutions that we're putting in place. Those examples that I just gave are kind of focused on the smaller DERs, but there's also a role for large DERs as well. These are things like 10 or 20 megawatt batteries that are playing that same peak load reduction role, but for a large scale industrial or commercial application, for example, think about a massive customer. The same idea, you know, reduce the magnitude of those peaks, but with a single, massive device. So, the ability to manage peaks is extremely beneficial to utility trying to manage the grid, and DERs will be a really big part of that. So, the question may be, why now? Why are we all of a sudden hearing so much more about DERs and seeing the start of what we expect to be a big ramp up of Der installations? As I said at the beginning. I mean, solar panels aren't a new technology. They've been around for quite a while. Batteries are evolving. But as you know, we've had batteries for a while, so there's a couple of reasons behind this. And before we jump into those, there is a caveat here that I am obviously talking to you from Ottawa, Ontario. And so, the context around what I'm going to say here is very Ontario kind of North American specific. There are other jurisdictions in the world, you know, Europe, for example, that are quite a bit further along than us when it comes to DERs, or at least, their approach has been different in a different timeline. So, keep in mind that I'm talking about sort of the local context here. So, the first reason why we're seeing a lot more of this kind, boils down to basic economics and market forces. So, a rooftop solar array 20 years ago was something that could be considered a luxury item. It's extremely expensive and Ontario, at least prior to the feed in tariff program, which launched in 2009 there wasn't really even a great mechanism for recovering your costs, kind of the best you could hope for was, you know, eliminate your electricity consumption from the grid and thereby reduce your cost on your electricity bill, at least for the electricity portion. The last 15 or so years have seen significant changes in that area. So, programs like Ontario's feed in tariff, and then sort of a subsequent evolution into our current net metering option, have created a viable business case for putting solar up at the same time that solar technology and sort of the global value chains around that have evolved and costs have dropped exponentially, so on a global scale, when we look at sort of cost of solar globally, the cost is now about 90% less than it was in 2010 to put solar up on your roof, for example. That is not a small fee. So, think about how significant a drop that is. So that combined with government programs like tax credits, low or no interest financing options for DERs and other energy efficiency measures, and all of a sudden there's a really good business case for putting up solar. Solar, I would say, is the furthest ahead on that journey when you talk about DERs, but battery technology, EVs, et cetera. They're seeing a similar process where they are no longer just super high end luxury items anymore. I mean, you've probably seen this as you look around, you probably see way more EVs out there. You see that green license plate that starts with GeV. We're seeing these technologies become more common, the cost coming down and more accessible for more people. Another main driver is just the need for these types of solutions as part of our energy transition. And again, have a listen to my last explainer episode on the energy transition for more on this. But because of the ongoing climate crisis, as well as increasing demand from things like AI data centers, the need for fast evolution and how we manage our grid, how we support our customers, how we provide the power that's being asked of us, is really critical, and so that's why you'll see government programs that support der technology, and hopefully we'll see even more of Those moving forward. Lastly, what else needs to happen to get there?

So, I've kind of painted this picture of widespread DER adoption. It's everywhere we're utilizing it. You know, utilities are making use of The DERs that are out there. That is not today's context, but I'm hopeful that it's sort of tomorrow's context, that we're on the cusp of that what needs to happen to get there? Well, one of the big things is grid modernization. So I'll take this opportunity to give another plug to the episode that I did with hydro Ottawa's Jenna Gillis earlier this year about our own grid modernization efforts. But essentially, we need to evolve our grid technology and the sort of system office technology, you know, that's where we control the grid and our own IT infrastructure, how we communicate with our devices, to the next level, which will allow us to do the kinds of things with DERs that I mentioned earlier, and as I talked about with Jenna, our efforts towards this are underway. This is a real project. This isn't sort of a concept that we're thinking of this is something we're doing that's underway. It's ongoing, and we're preparing ourselves for a de our future. That's one of the reasons why we're doing this, one of the reasons, finally, there continues to be a role that governments at all level can play to further incentivize and enable DERs, whether that's through incentives or subsidy programs, or updating existing regulations and rate classes, so that the business case for DERs makes sense in sort of the areas or applications where they will benefit the grid and all customers. There's a role to be played there government and those conversations are underway. There are der working groups in Ontario that we're a part of, and we're hopefully going to see more movement on that as we move forward. So hopefully that gives you a sense of what DERs are and why they're so important, why that acronym comes up on this show so frequently amongst our guests and the conversations that we have, they really are just one more tool in our energy toolbox that we will use to build that smart, clean, connected energy future that we talk about on this show so often. They are one of the ways that we're going to get there, and a big part of that.

So, thanks for listening. As always, send us your thoughts and feedback. Let us know topics that you want to hear about. We'd love to hear from you, and thanks for being a part of this conversation. Take care everyone.

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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Our daily lives are more and more connected online. This includes our utility grids. Jojo Maalouf, Hydro Ottawa’s Director of Cybersecurity and IT Infrastructure, joins thinkenergy to discuss the role of cybersecurity in the energy sector. From cybersecurity threats, like cyber warfare and ransom-seeking hacktivists, to the measures required to defend our energy systems. Plus, how AI both helps and complicates matters. Listen in to learn what’s driving change and the collaboration needed to protect the grid.

Related links

• Ontario Cybersecurity Framework: https://www.oeb.ca/regulatory-rules-and-documents/rules-codes-and-requirements/ontario-cyber-security
• Get Cyber Safe resources: https://www.getcybersafe.gc.ca/en
• Jojo Maalouf on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jojo-maalouf-cism-cissp-0546b03/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrottawa.com Hi everyone, welcome back. It won't be a surprise to anyone listening that our energy systems, like much of the rest of our lives, are becoming more and more connected and more online than ever before. Let's just take a look at our own personal lives. We've got apps that can control multiple aspects of our homes. For example, for my phone, I can adjust temperature, set points and fan speed heating and cooling in my house, I can turn on or off lights, both inside and outside. I can look and see who just rang my doorbell, even if I'm in another city, and I can check and see where my vehicle is, whether it's charging or not. And I can even turn it on all from my phone. And I would consider myself like middle of the road in terms of how connected and online I am. There are even further examples of this in some of those ultra-connected homes. This is part of our fast paced and constant evolution towards invenience and using technology to find solutions to problems that we didn't always know existed, and maybe they didn't actually exist. We've all heard that term, the Internet of Things, referring to this ultra-connected world where it's not just people talking over the internet, but our devices and systems are talking as well. I was absolutely floored when I was doing some research on this podcast to find out that this term, the Internet of Things, was first used 25 years ago, in 1999 when I first wrote the text for this. I put a placeholder in to say, oh, it's been around for over 10 years. And then when I actually did my research, it's over 25 years. Think about how far we've come since that idea was thought of in 1999 how different life is today than 1999 our energy systems and our utility grids are undergoing a similar transition. I talked about this a little bit with Hydro Ottawa's Jenna Gillis in a previous episode about grid modernization. So go back and have a listen to that. If you haven't already, we are adding more and more data points to our grids, and that includes sensors, smart switches, fault detectors, smarter meters, etc., etc. Even for hydro Ottawa, a local distribution company with around 350,000 customers, we are talking about many times that number of smart devices in the coming years, all connected, all trading data between themselves and our central systems and the smart folks who run them now, there is a ton of upside to this transition, and that's why we're doing it. More data leads to better decision making, a better view of what's happening, whether that's during an outage or at times when the grid is heavily utilized. It lets us get more out of the equipment we have, react and adjust to the needs of our customers, and react and adjust to the needs of the grid. It will lead to faster restoration during outages, and sometimes that restoration will be automatic without having to roll a truck. It will allow us to better integrate distributed energy resources like small scale solar and storage and other things into our grid for the benefit of our customers and the grid. There is no question that this is a move in the right direction, and hydro Ottawa is leaning into this aspect of the energy transition to build a smarter grid for our customers. However, it does highlight something that has long been a priority for us, cyber security. With so many connected devices, with so much data out there, we need to be extremely vigilant and rigorous with our digital security. Cyber-attacks on utility infrastructure are not theoretical. In 2015 and 2016 attacks on the Ukrainian power grid resulted in large scale power outages in that country, as we increasingly rely on electricity for so many aspects of our lives, attacks like this, whether by nation states or bad actors seeking financial gain, can have devastating consequences. Luckily, this is something that has been a priority for us for many years, and as the threats become more sophisticated, so too do our strategies to protect our systems and our grid from those attacks. Joining me today to talk about this is Hydro Ottawa's director of cybersecurity and IT infrastructure. Jojo Maalouf, JoJo, welcome to the show.

Jojo Maalouf 04:46

Thanks for having me.

Trevor Freeman 04:47

All right, so Jojo, cyber security is a little bit of a buzzword that a lot of folks have probably heard in a bunch of different contexts. Help us unpack it a little bit. What do we actually mean when we talk about cybersecurity threats and cybersecurity prevention, I guess?

Jojo Maalouf 05:05

Very good question, right? So, I mean, let's kind of simplify things, so we obviously have these adversaries, right? And these adversaries are trying to get into organizations networks. We hear a lot of the sensitivity or the criticality of information, so they're trying to obtain that information. And, you know, can they look at potentially monetizing that? Really what we're kind of trying to do, or what cyber security is, is, if you think about it, we have these bad guys, these adversaries. They're trying to get into organizations they possess or introduce some sort of level of risk. What we are trying to do as people in cyber security is defend those organizations from those risks and those adversaries. So, in order for us to do that, we need to put together a program. We need to make sure we have the relevant controls in place, because, at the end of the day, what we're trying to do is mitigate that risk to an acceptable level where the business can run.

Trevor Freeman 06:07

Yeah, totally. And who are these threats coming from? Like, we hear a lot about state sponsored groups for profit, hackers. There's sort of that hacktivists, kind of ideologically driven group. Who are we worried about in the in the energy industry?

Jojo Maalouf 06:20

You know, it's very good question. I think, to be honest, you, I think we worry about all of them. I think from from our perspective, threats are threats. And obviously, depending on the magnitude of those threats and where they're coming from, they could potentially possess or introduce a different type of risk. But the reality is, they all introduce a level of risk. Yes, we are worried about state sponsored entities. You know, we've seen what's happened throughout the years. It started out in Stuxnet with Iran in 2010 we've seen what's happened with Ukraine in 2015 the end of day, what are we trying to protect? We're trying to ensure that a cyber-attack doesn't actually impact our ability to deliver power to our customers. What we are seeing now in the industry, obviously, is that adversaries are understanding that they can really monetize this, right? So, we're seeing the exponential growth of ransomware throughout the years. I remember back in 2016 when a major Canadian university was asked to pay a think approximately a $35,000 ransomware. Where we looked at that in comparison in 2024 where the average cost of a ransomware attack is just under $5 million. So, it's a billion dollar industry, right? And it's only growing. You know, I'd say the threats are coming everywhere, but you're definitely seeing the monetization aspect of it growing exponentially.

Trevor Freeman 07:51

Yeah. So, I guess from our perspective, it really doesn't matter what the motivation is. If someone's getting into our systems and sort of impacting our ability to do what we do doesn't matter what the motivation is. It's a problem for us, and we try and guard against it.

Jojo Maalouf 08:05

Correct. I think, I think people are very highly motivated now, whether it's for it's ransomware, whether it's state sponsored, I think entities, or I would say adversary, sorry, are definitely highly motivated. And it doesn't really change our approach. So, you know, the energy sector needs to make sure that they do what they can to protect the systems.

Trevor Freeman 08:23

Yeah, fair enough. So, we've talked in the past on the show, and in my intro, I talked about grid modernization, and this sort of evolution of our grid, and the technology on our grid to have more and more connected devices out in the field, and the amount of data that's flowing on our grid is increasing. Obviously, there are many benefits to this, but inherently that brings a degree of risk as well. Can you talk to us about the risk that their grid modernization brings, and sort of how we're thinking about that?

Jojo Maalouf 08:58

So, Trevor, I think you said it well when you said more and more devices are connected now. So really, what ends up happening every time we add a device that's connected, it increases the organization's risk profile. So ideally, what we want to be able to do is we want to manage exactly what that those entry points into potential organizations are. So, every time I add a device, I have to think that it increases that attack surface to a degree. So, I mean, you've talked about what grid modernization can do. There are many capabilities I think that's going to benefit organizations. But I think as this happens, we need to ensure that cybersecurity risks are managed to ensure that that risk profile is managed to an appropriate level.

Trevor Freeman 09:48

How prepared is the energy industry to respond to and to recover from a major cyber-attack, if one were to happen on the power grid?

Jojo Maalouf 09:57

Honestly, I think that the energy sector as well. Prepared as a critical infrastructure entity, the energy sector has the benefit of dealing a lot with government partners. So, I think what you want to do as an organization is you want to build that trust, that ecosystem of partners, whether it is through public and private relationships. But I'd say from a critical infrastructure perspective, there are very good relationships with the industry, very good relationships with government partners. I think testing organizations resiliency has been in play now for many, many years. But I think from a cyber perspective, I think it's something where organizations continue to be prepared, continue to do some of the appropriate testing, you know? And I'll be honest, I say it's, it's, you never want to be complacent, right? And I think what we've learned over the years is threats are evolving. Threats are changing. The industry is always going to be susceptible to attacks.

Trevor Freeman 11:00

Are we collaborating and working with other stakeholders? I mean, both at the sort of other utility level, you mentioned, governments and regulatory bodies, are we collaborating with those other entities? And sort of in line when it comes to cybersecurity?

Jojo Maalouf 11:15

There is a lot of collaboration that occurs within the industry, whether it's in Ontario, you'll see now that the regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, you know, there is the Ontario cybersecurity framework that has been in play now since around 2018 even at the national level there. Here are many different bodies where, you know cybersecurity, like critical infrastructure protection is paramount, as discussed regularly, and then obviously there's the government agency. So, there's a lot of collaboration that goes whether it's from the provincial, the National, and then the government side as well. And I mean, I think you need those relationships, right? You need those partnerships to help.

Trevor Freeman 12:02

Yeah, we're not we're not a lone utility kind of figuring out on our own. We're working with our partners and our peers to figure that out. The other kind of area of emerging technology that I want to talk about is, AI, artificial intelligence and sort of machine learning. Are we using those technologies? Or do you see us using those technologies in the future to sort of enhance the cyber security of our grid and our assets?

Jojo Maalouf 12:29

Yeah, I mean, I think obviously artificial intelligence, machine learning, seems to be the 2024 theme. The reality is, is a lot of technologies have already adopted, whether it's AI or machine learning, into their into their solutions. You know, I think the whole Gen AI aspect is growing, and it's something that I think is going to benefit everybody in the industry as well. The unfortunate thing is, is that I think adversaries are going to be able to use these technologies as well. You know, whether it's to paint a better picture of an organization, maybe to customize some attack patterns, but I think it's something where we have to embrace the technology. We have to use it in our, I would say, in our toolkit, but we're very much cognizant of the fact is that adversaries are going to be using these, these tool sets as well to potentially target organizations within the energy sector.

Trevor Freeman 13:33

And are there specific things that you know, speaking as the local distribution company, specific things that our customers can do or should be aware of? What's the role of our customer when it comes to cybersecurity?

Jojo Maalouf 13:46

It's a very good question. I mean, from a from a customer's perspective, I think customers need to realize the importance of their information. So, I mean, the reality now is a lot of adversaries are targeting people directly because they want their information. Their information. Their information is valuable. So, I think as a customer, what they want to make sure they do is that they do what they can to protect their information. So, some very simple steps that they can do make sure you have a complex password that only you know, that's not easily guessable. The other thing is, you don't want to use that password across multiple systems. So, what's the best way for you to be able to manage all your passwords? Invest in a password manager. There are free solutions out there. There are other really good solutions that are at a fraction of a cost as well as that password. What you want to make sure you do is you have multi factor authentication attached to it. What that really means is it's a second level of authentication that's going to challenge you to make sure you are who you say you are. It could just be an application that's installed on your phone. Think those are really some really good ways that you know a customer can use to protect themselves. I think even investing in credit monitoring is really good because. Is the last thing you want to do is an adversary to target you, steal your information, then all of a sudden, are starting to open up accounts in your name, right? So credit monitoring is another really important one. So, I mean, I think those are some really basic ones, but I think that they can go a long way to protecting a customer from threats. There are some really good online resources that they can use. Public Safety Canada has their get cyber safe website that provides a lot of information for, you know, everyday residential people or customers, sorry, steps that they can take to protect themselves.

Trevor Freeman 15:33

And for our listeners that kind of are thinking like, Oh, I feel like I've heard that before. I think you're right. You have it is those basic steps that really can protect us. And just so that everybody knows this is a focus of us internally as well, all employees of Hydro Ottawa also have a focus on what can we as employees do in order to make sure we're protecting our systems, we're protecting our data, and all the things that JoJo mentioned when it comes to password integrity, conscious of protecting our data. We're focused on that on a day-to-day basis as well. Jojo, thanks very much for taking the time to talk us through this. It's something that is maybe a bit adjacent to the energy transition, but so important as we increasingly digitize our grid, digitize our systems, as I mentioned, add more data points. We can't sort of leave cybersecurity behind. So, I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today, as our listeners know, and as you know, we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests. So I will jump right into those. Jojo, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

Jojo Maalouf 16:39

Yeah, good question. I'll give you two books, especially within the context of cybersecurity. You know, we did briefly mention Stuxnet. A really good book is by Kim Zetter. It's called Zero Day, and it basically depicts what happened with Stuxnet. Really informative. It's actually really good read. It's not necessarily technical, but just goes to show kind of how cyber warfare was actually built. Another really good one is from Andy Greenberg. It's called sandworm, a new era of cyber war in the hunt for the Kremlin's most dangerous hackers. Another really good read as well. So, I think those are two books, I would say, in the cybersecurity context, that I think are really good reads.

Trevor Freeman 17:29

Nice. Same question. But for a movie or a show, is there a movie or show that you think everyone should have a look at?

Jojo Maalouf 17:36

I'm actually really into Yellowstone these days, right? So, I'm gonna give that props.

Trevor Freeman 17:41

Nice. That's a good one. If someone offered you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Jojo Maalouf 17:48

Good question, I think right now where I am, I'd probably go anywhere, either in the Alps or in the Dolomites, to ski.

Trevor Freeman 17:56

That's awesome. And our last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you are particularly excited about?

Jojo Maalouf 18:04

To be honest with you, I What really interests me and what I'm really excited about is, think the evolution in change into we are now a technology company, And I think what we're where the energy sector is grow is, is moving towards, is really exciting. You know, I think over the years, it's been a very siloed approach to the way services are driven or given where I find now, its very technology focused, right? And I think that's very exciting times.

Trevor Freeman 18:39

Very cool. Well, JoJo, I really appreciate your time today, and you sharing your insight with us, and thanks for coming on the show.

Jojo Maalouf 18:46

Thank you, Trevor, it's great being here.

Trevor Freeman 18:50

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at think energy@Hydroottawa.com.

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The energy transition is a big topic on thinkenergy. But what exactly is it? What does it mean globally, in Canada, and to you as an energy user? In this bite-sized episode, host Trevor Freeman unpacks the what, where, when, and how of the energy transition. From energy production and storage to how electrification is implemented in different communities. Listen in to learn about the nuances shaping the energy landscape, including the economic, political, and technological shifts driving change.

Related links

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa

Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:00 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrottawa.com

Hi everyone and welcome back. Okay, so today is going to be a little bit different than normal. I mentioned in our first episode following the summer break that we'd be trying out a few new things, and this is one of them, we're going to periodically mix up the format and deliver kind of a shorter, bite sized episode. Every once in a while, the goal of these episodes will be to provide a little bit of an explainer or context setting information on a topic that either we reference and refer to often, but maybe haven't explicitly explained, or to maybe demystify some aspect of energy in the utility sector that can be overlooked or generally goes unseen from the outside. So for example, you know, what does that line item on my bill actually mean, or something like that? How we fill that shorter time slot may vary, but one of the formats will be just kind of me waxing on, hopefully poetically, hopefully not too mundane about the issue. I promise to keep it as short and succinct as I can think today is going to be probably on the longer side of that short and succinct window, but I will do my best. So what's on Trevor's mind for today? It shouldn't surprise you that it's the energy transition. Obviously, listeners of previous episodes will have heard me use that term probably in almost every episode since I took over the helm here at think energy. I think it's likely that if you're listening to this podcast, you've got a pretty good idea of what we mean by that, or a general sense, at least, but there is some nuance to it that I think is worth picking apart for a few minutes, and I always want to make sure that we are also welcoming to new people into the conversation who maybe don't know what that is, and so this would be kind of a good explainer for that.

So with that rather verbose intro, let us dive in. When we think about the energy transition, we probably mostly think of this ongoing shift to cleaner emissions free energy. So EVs over gas cars, heat pumps over gas furnaces, etcetera. That is definitely part of it. In fact, that's a major part of it. But like most things in life, it's never just as simple as that. The Energy Transition is a truly fundamental shift in our global relationship with energy, which includes not just what makes our cars go, but everything from how, where and when we generate energy, how, where and when we store and use energy, how we pay for the energy we use, how we finance and pay for energy projects and the systems that we need to do all the things I just mentioned, it will include a shift in what policies and regulatory guidelines and barriers we put in place to protect the public, but that also encourage change that we want to see happen to allow for innovation and advancement. It isn't completely throwing out everything we have and starting from scratch, although some things will disappear, like coal fired electricity generation, for example, but in a lot of areas, it is building on what we've already got at a pace that we haven't seen before, at least in a very long time. And I think that's a key point here. One of the things that makes the energy transition a change worth noting is the pace of change that we will see. Things have never really been static in the world of energy, from that time when our earliest ancestors first sparked that fire, this is the poetic part that I mentioned earlier, our relationship to energy has never really stood still. But other than a few significant events, the upward trend in sophistication and growth and scope has been fairly linear, gradual, one step after the other, etcetera. It's those exceptions, though, those things that are different from that gradual, linear growth that probably most closely resemble this period of change that has started that we're calling the energy transition. Take the Industrial Revolution, for example. For decades and centuries prior, there had been gradual improvements in how we got around or how we worked the fields. Let's say, you know, first by hand, then with tools, maybe a better plow came along, and we started using a horse or an oxen to pull that plow, et cetera. Then along comes the steam engine, and all of a sudden, things take off like never before. It wasn't just a matter of swapping out a horse for an engine. It may have started there, but entire economies and aspects of society changed or sprang up where they didn't exist before one change rolls into another and another in quick succession, and before too long, things that couldn't be imagined only decades before are suddenly a reality. To a degree, that's what we're looking at today with the energy transition. How far that change goes remains to be seen, but it's pretty clear that we have begun one of those disruptive periods of change that will be looked back on as a major turning point. So yes, the energy transition is about shifting away from greenhouse gas emitting fossil fuels, coal, oil, natural gas, etcetera, to renewable, non-emitting energy sources, solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, etcetera. But it's also so much more. The World Energy Council Secretary General and CEO Angela Wilkinson put it best when she said, we're actually looking not at one energy transition, but multiple transitions plural, because there are many diverse pathways to a sustainable energy future. So, there is the aforementioned shift away from fossil fuels for space, water, heating and transportation. A very large portion of that fuel switch will be to electricity, which means we also need to decarbonize how we produce electricity. Phase out coal, nearly all-natural gas, the remaining diesel generation in favor of non-emitting energy sources that I just mentioned. We will also see more distributed energy resources, so things like small scale solar and battery storage and more programs like demand response to manage when we use energy. And there are also other items that I highlighted at the beginning, our financial mechanisms, our regulatory and policy framework, all the interconnected pieces that go along with this. Now, if you'll permit me just a couple more minutes, I do want to touch on a few more aspects of this. The first is, why? Why is this transition happening? One major, overwhelming driver, of course, is the climate crisis. This isn't the episode to fully pick that apart and define it, but suffice to say, climate change is and will continue to be, a signature global crisis of this century, and it is driven primarily by fossil fuel usage, the energy transition and all its various aspects and parts, is a big part of the strategy to slow and stop Climate change and to limit its impacts to what is already baked in. But other things are driving this too. As we continue to digitize our lives, another major disruptive change that probably is worth its own conversation, and as tools like AI evolve, our need for energy is growing faster than ever. We can't meet those needs with the business-as-usual approach. The energy transition helps us deal with this rising demand, regardless of the reason, whether it's for electrification or large, dense data centers that are needed to run things like AI. There are also considerations like energy security and the benefits of decentralizing at least some of our energy sources. And finally, air quality considerations are a major push to reduce harmful emissions and replace that energy with clean, non emitting sources. Listeners in Ontario who are say around my tenure as kind of that oldest millennial age group will remember smog days in Ontario, which no longer exists, mostly because we moved away from coal fired generation, a bit over a decade ago. There are other parts of the world that still see really poor air quality, and shifting away from fossil fuel combustion will go a long, long way to addressing that. Now, the energy transition is not all sunshine and grassy meadows. It is a hard journey with challenges and obstacles to overcome. To start with, time is tight, and that is an understatement. We lost our chance, which could have started as early as 50 years ago, for this to be a slow and easy process, we need to move fast. Our climate is changing rapidly around us, and we are not on track to reduce emissions at the pace we need to. We haven't been keeping up with past targets and goals for reductions, and so we really need to pick up the pace. And like I mentioned earlier, even without climate change, our need for energy is growing at an exponential pace. In Canada, we're fortunate in that we have a strong foundation with a relatively decarbonized grid already, so about 80% carbon free nationally, and a diverse mix of hydro, nuclear and renewables like wind and solar. But it's still going to take quite a lot of effort to decarbonize that remaining 20% at a time when, as I keep mentioning, demand is increasing rapidly. In Ontario, our electricity system operator, the IESO, just updated their future demand projections to show that provincial demand will be 75% more or less higher by 2050 than it is today. This means we also need to invest in our grid infrastructure to ensure it can handle the increased load, as well as utilizing things like decentralized generation and storage to ensure we don't over build not to mention making sure we can handle more extreme weather. Just to give you a sense of what all that means, I'll remind you of an episode we did a few months ago with Jenna Gillis, Hydro, Ottawa's manager of distribution system integration, about our grid modernization roadmap, which is a 10-year plan to modernize our grid to make sure it can support. Support the kinds of things we're talking about here today. And I encourage you to go back and have a listen to that if you haven't already. To zoom out a bit, the energy transition is also very political as any major disrupter in society would be. There are differing viewpoints on the tools and tactics, the carrots and sticks, if you will, with which to enable change, differing viewpoints about the pace of change that we should be aiming for, and differing viewpoints even about where we ultimately end up when it comes to energy, and that is true within each jurisdiction, so within Ontario and within Canada and between jurisdictions at a more geopolitical level. So, to find alignment to make progress in these areas, these are not easy tasks. Have a listen to my earlier episode with Nicholas Rivers from the University of Ottawa for more thoughts on that and on the role that governments and policy makers can and should be playing. Now, as urgent as the need for change is, as exciting as the benefits might be, and as appealing as the vision for a smart, clean, connected energy future can appear, we can't just plow ahead without also considering the consequences and impacts of our choices. The energy transition will be disruptive, and there are a lot of good things about that, but let's not forget the root of that word, disruption, disturbance, things we know today, systems we have today will be upended, will need to change and adapt and quickly, and there are people who rely on those systems. In Canada, we have an entire industry, a substantial portion of our economy, that is associated with fossil fuel extraction and processing, and that's just one example for the transition to work and to actually move forward, it has to be fair and equitable and just for everyone. People and communities whose livelihoods are going to be upended need to be supported. The energy transition is also not free. Another massive understatement. All this change that I've been talking about here costs a lot of money. For Canada to reach net zero by 2050 it could require an estimated $2 trillion in investment. Now there are a lot of benefits to that, absolutely. I'm not saying that's not a worthwhile investment, but it's worth thinking about. So, we already have affordability challenges for many of our neighbors. We have institutions like healthcare, education and housing struggling to hold up under the pressure of the pandemic that we just experienced, inflation, supply chain issues, underfunding, all these different things. This transition has to happen in a way that, again, allows everyone to benefit and participate in it, regardless of their income levels, in a way that doesn't cause those other institutions to crack and crumble.

You'll notice I'm not talking any specific solutions to this, and I guess that's the benefit of sitting in the host chair. I get to bring other smart people on to talk about that. But I do want to highlight that in this little talk here. Going back to the World Energy Council that I mentioned earlier, they also note the concept of the energy quadrilemma. So as in more than a dilemma, a quadrilemma. What they mean by that is that the transition needs to be just, so ensure fairness for everyone through the process needs to be orderly, so making sure that we approach things in a structured and efficient manner. It needs to be inclusive, so ensuring that everyone has an equal voice in the decision-making process, and it needs to be equitable, making sure that everyone has access to affordable, reliable and clean energy. It's worth noting here that our current system doesn't yet provide this. In my previous episode with Gemma Pinchin from Quest Canada, we talked about the number of rural and remote Canadians relying on diesel generators, for example, for their energy needs, because they're not connected to a grid and they don't enjoy all the benefits that come with that not everyone has the same access to energy across the country today, and that is its own challenge that needs to be solved as we go through this energy transition.

So, as we get close to wrapping this up, let's talk about the how, what will enable us to realize this transition that we've been talking about. To start with, we need to scale up. We have heat pumps, EVs, renewable generation and battery storage today, those are major pieces in the energy transition, but we need more can we need it faster, and most of all, we need it cheaper. We've seen this drop in costs for things like solar already. If you look at the cost of solar from, you know, let's say 15, 10, five years ago to now, it's dropped precipitously. But we need that across all aspects of the transition. And this happens naturally in some cases, but we also need to speed it along with both policy and market forces. So the more demand for heat pumps, the more get made, the cheaper it is to make them. We need public awareness. We need to collectively recognize the importance and urgency for action so that we can make decisions whether that's what vehicle that. Or what project to tackle in our homes, or what we demand of our political representation that will drive us in the right direction. On that note, we need clear and consistent policy from all levels of government that will support and encourage the energy transition, and we need the appropriate levels of investment from our various levels of government to make this transition possible, Again, listen to my conversation with Nicholas rivers for more thoughts on what that might look like. And we need leadership, leadership from our governments, but we also need to look at ourselves as how can we show leadership Canada and Canadians can punch above our weight class, so to speak, by setting an example for others to follow, and by developing policies, programs and technologies, even to serve and guide others. So, to wrap it up, as I come to a close here, the energy transition is a little bit bigger than just fuel switching. It definitely is that, but it's more. It's a long, tough road, but we're on it no matter what it started, and it will continue, and it's also full of exciting possibilities and opportunities.

Now, I hope this summary wasn't too vague. That was, it was meant to be high level, and again, I'm going to play the host card here and point to past and future episodes to dive deeper into specific aspects of this. But what I will say is that I'd love to hear from you. If you have thoughts about what we cover on the show, what we're not covering that you think we should be reach out to us. Thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com, I'd love to hear from you. Love to get your thoughts on this. Feel free to let us know what you think about this kind of format. If this works for you and you want to see kind of more of these explainers. Great. That's awesome. If you want to reach out to us and say, I think that was maybe just a little bit too much, Trevor, I get it. That's okay. I won't be offended or too offended. Now, I normally wrap up my episodes with a series of questions for my guests. Since I don't have a guest today, I won't make you listen to me sharing all of my answers, but I will leave you with a book recommendation. And I have to be honest here, I'm taking a rather dangerous step of recommending a book that I haven't actually read yet, but it is next on my list when I finish what I'm reading now, and it came highly recommended to me, and I'm really excited to read it. It's a book called, What if we get it right by Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. It's a collection of essays and poetry and conversations that really gives some optimism about what could be when it comes to climate change and the energy transition, it is an exercise in not letting the sometimes-disheartening aspects of the climate crisis keep us from dreaming about the possible and to have hope and faith in the future that we can solve these challenges, we can realize the benefits of this energy transition that we talk about and that we know are possible. So, I'm really excited to read it soon, hopefully it lives up to my recommendation and the recommendation that was given to me for it when I wanted to let you know about it as well.

So thank you, as always, for joining. Thank you for letting me and the team here try out this different format. Definitely let us know what you think about it, and keep checking back in for more great conversations with great leaders in the energy world. I promise I will be bringing guests back onto the show. It won't just be me talking. There will be some great ones coming up. So, thanks very much, and check back next time.

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@HydroOttawa.com

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The climate crisis is a global challenge. But there isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution. While urban centres are driving discussions on electrification and policy, rural and remote communities, including many Indigenous areas, face distinct energy realities. Gemma Pinchin from QUEST Canada joins thinkenergy to share how these communities can engage in the energy transition equitably and sustainably. Listen to episode 143 to learn about the diverse approaches to decarbonization in different global contexts.

Related links

● QUEST Canada: https://questcanada.org/

● QUEST Canada Net Zero Communities Accelerator Program: https://questcanada.org/nca/

● QUEST Canada on X: https://twitter.com/questcanada

● QUEST Canada on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@QUESTtalks

● Gemma Pinchin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemma-pinchin/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa

Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Transcript

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Hi. Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroanawat.com, everyone, welcome back. Climate change is truly a global issue, and that is true in really every sense of that word. I mean. Carbon emissions come from literally everywhere humans live in the world. Climate impacts are felt across the globe, with no regards to borders, and as a result, the ongoing energy transition, which is one of the main tools we're using to address the climate crisis, also needs to be global, unfortunately, and as I've talked about several times on this show and a bunch of different contexts, there's really no overarching global solution that can be applied everywhere. Of course, electrification is one of the main strategies in most cases, and that can be applied in all different parts of the world, but exactly how electrification is deployed, what technology is going to be used in, what specific use cases, what government policies are going to work. There is by no means a one size fits all approach to those questions. Local context is so important when it comes to the energy transition, and that's a big part about what today's conversation is about. I'm going to assume that, like me, most not all, but most listeners of this show live in or adjacent to or very near an urban center of some sort. I certainly do. I live in Ottawa, the capital of Canada, as such, when we talk about the various technologies or policies or approaches, we probably do so with an urban lens. The things that we're thinking of when we're talking about this stuff is in that kind of urban context. But that isn't everybody's reality. Rural and remote communities have a very different relationship with energy than urban centers in Canada, at least, there are over 280 communities which are home to around 200,000 people who aren't connected to the broader electrical or natural gas grid. The process of decarbonization represents unique challenges for these communities and for these Canadians who get their energy in a very different way from the rest of us. And another aspect of this is that there are also often overlaps between what I'm referring to here as rural and remote communities and indigenous communities, and proper, meaningful engagement with indigenous communities is an extremely important step in making sure that the energy transition is equitable and just for everyone, not to mention as the original stewards of the land most of us live on, we can learn a lot from indigenous communities about how we can exist on this land in a way that is not detrimental to the land and to our own health and well-being. To that end, I'm really excited today to have Gemma Pinchin from Quest Canada on the show to help us pull this apart a little bit and understand this context a bit better. Gemma is a senior lead of research and projects at Quest, and is responsible for the motivating Net Zero action and rural and remote communities research project. Gemma Pinchin, welcome to the show.

Gemma Pinchin 03:42

Thank you so much for having me.

Trevor Freeman 03:44

So why don't we start Gemma by having you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be working in the role you're in, and also what quest Canada does.

Gemma Pinchin 03:54

Sure. Yeah. So I come from a background in research and policy and kind of like a number of areas. Most recently, I was working with the IESO. I was working on their indigenous relations team, really, in indigenous energy planning and capacity building. So, I have a master's in globalization and international development, and a bachelor's in history. So, a bit of a varied background. I've sort of worked in a bunch of roles, but I've always sort of had an interest in the climate crisis and how communities are really facing that and dealing with that. So, I joined quest in early 2023 and I was really drawn to their mission. It was really inspiring for me. So, the quest is a national charity that focuses on helping communities on their pathway towards net zero. So, they've been around since 2007 and they facilitate connections, empower community champions and advise decision makers. So, we really, we develop tools and resources and convene a variety of working. Groups and also provide advice to decision makers. So, Quest's mission, the one that I was inspired by, is to encourage, assist and enable communities to contribute to Canada's net zero goals.

Trevor Freeman 05:13

And your particular focus, if I'm not mistaken, is on sort of rural and remote communities. How did you, why is that your focus? How did you end up there?

Gemma Pinchin 05:21

Yeah, so through Quests projects, particularly the net zero community accelerator, which works with communities to the end goal is to create community energy and emissions plan we saw, and also through policy work and those kinds of pieces, we saw that there was the net zero transition is sort of chugging along, but there's kind of been a gap. The transition tends to focus more on the urban context. You know, urban population centers, the big cities, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, those kinds of places and that we saw as leaving out a really big chunk of Canadians. I think the statistic off the top of my head is 1/5 of Canadians live in rural and remote places. So, it's not a small statistic. So, we wanted to make sure that as the net zero transition was moving along and progressing that this large group of Canadians weren't forgotten about and the net zero transition is going to rely, and has been relying on rural land, rural populations, you know, to house Renewable Energy for food production as well as carbon sequestration. So, leaving this big group of people out is just kind of inconceivable, I guess. And what quests saw was that this was happening. So, we started this research project to sort of make sure that those voices were being heard and considered as Canada moves through the net zero transition?

Trevor Freeman 07:03

Great. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's one of the reasons why I'm excited to have you on the show today is to talk about that. And as I mentioned in the intro, even this conversation that I often have on on this show tends to focus more on those kinds of urban centers, or features of the energy transition that are more often found in urban centers. How does the traditional grid interact with our customers, things like that? So, I'm excited for this, for this conversation today, I think it'd be helpful before we really dive into it, to define what is a rural and remote community. So maybe let's start with that. What do you consider a rural and remote community and maybe go into what is unique about their energy needs and priorities compared to those in the urban centers.

Gemma Pinchin 07:49

So, my research will, I've completed a literature review, and then I'll be going on and doing work in communities, work with 15 communities. So, I kind of, at the beginning, I was trying to figure out how to define rural, because it's going to be, or it is currently across Canada research project. So, I was trying to figure out if there is a, you know, standardized definition. But it turned out that every single province had a different province and territory has a different definition of rural or remote, and even stats can in order to be considered a rural community, you have to be under 1000 people. But that felt a little bit too small. When I moved to Canada, I grew up in a rural community that had a population of 3000 and it felt very, very rural. So, I felt that was going to be a bit of a barrier for a lot of rural communities, not all rural communities, but, you know, rural communities have varying different population amounts, and then the population for the remote cities for example, like white horse or Yellowknife. They're considered remote due to how far away they are from everything else, but they have quite large population bases for the territories. So, for the sake of my research, we decided on a population cap of 30,000 which is quite large, but we wanted to be able to include those remote cities if they were willing to be a part of the research. And then I really decided that rural communities were in were best placed to sort of define whether they considered themselves rural. I live in, I live outside of Toronto, so I'm not currently live in a place where I would consider it rural, and I think communities themselves are in the best place to define themselves as rural. So that's kind of, it's a little bit vague, but that's kind of what, what we ended up going with. And then in terms of needs and priorities of these communities. Compared to urban centers, a big one is getting energy to communities, particularly remote communities. A lot of remote communities are reliant on diesel or fossil fuels, still, because getting in Ontario, the grid is fairly clean, but some communities just do not have access to it because they're so far away and so remote. So transportation to rural communities is probably one of the biggest differences, I guess. And then the types of emissions are also very, very different. So urban centers, it tends to be, you know, buildings and like cars and things like that. Whereas for rural centers, there's not as many buildings, obviously. So they have transportation to and from is a really big one, and then from the big sectors, so agriculture, mining, those kinds of pieces. Yeah, those are kind of the biggest differences, I would say.

Trevor Freeman 10:58

And as all the examples you gave were kind of in the Canadian context, and that's going to be the basis of going to be the basis of most of our conversation today, but I do know that you did spend some time looking at the international context, and obviously rural and remote living is not a uniquely Canadian thing. Of course. What did you learn through your kind of literature review on energy challenges internationally?

Gemma Pinchin 11:21

Yeah, so for this research, I hoped to sort of just focus on the Canadian context when I just started out, but there wasn't as much readily available literature I would be able to base an entire literature review on. So, while this is sort of a great justification for my ongoing research to be able to do a literature review. It was a little bit frustrating, so I decided to open it up to the usual comparator countries, so the UK, the US, Australia, and then Europe more broadly. And I found that the energy challenges and opportunities, I found that they were quite similar, like, even in the UK. I grew up in the UK, so I'm pretty aware of the sort of differences geographically between Canada and the UK, but everything's much closer together. But still, there is still this, like, big rural, urban divide, and there's still, like, remote communities in the UK, even though that they're not Canada remote, but you know they're still, they're still quite remote when you sort of apply a UK context to it, the biggest challenges and opportunities that I saw was that there needs to be a real consideration for rural needs and not just apply the same lens as urban needs onto that obviously, though we need to use rural space for renewable energies that's sort of across the board, is going to be something that everybody needs, and the costs of the net zero transition to be a barrier for rural communities. So, something I found a little bit interesting that I hadn't considered before was that for diesel dependent communities, that there was such a high cost associated with diesel fuel that there wasn't any extra money left over to fund the net zero transition. So it was kind of, I'd never really considered it that way, that you're spending all this money on this fuel and that's kind of eating up all of your energy costs. There's nothing left over to be able to fund this transition, and that there's this trust in diesel, because it's been what's been working for however long, for like a small, tiny community in Australia or Canada or the US or wherever. You know, it's kind of nerve wracking to give up that piece that's been working for years and years and years and take a risk on this new technology that might not be as effective in in their perception as how diesel has been.

Trevor Freeman 13:57

Yeah, I mean, that's interesting in that I see a lot of parallels between that context and other contexts, including the urban context of we are comfortable with what we know. We are comfortable with the things that we have seen working and experienced working to get us to work and back, or get the kids to school, or heat our homes Exactly. And as soon as someone starts talking about this new thing that we don't really know that that makes us a bit nervous. So, it's interesting that that that applies regardless of where you are. What are some you know, for a lot of our listeners, I think are probably more familiar with the urban context, what are some misconceptions that you have heard or that you've come across when it comes to the energy needs and capabilities of rural and remote communities.

Gemma Pinchin 14:48

So, I think there's this idea that a one size fits all solution for every community, and that solutions that work in urban centers will work in rural centers, and that. Just not, not the case. For example, something obvious like transportation, my literature review highlighted that within urban centers, the most sustainable option would obviously be public transport. But if you apply that same lens to a rural community, you know, cars are bad, and we shouldn't be using them rural communities. It's almost impossible to be sustainable in net zero because they don't have the public transport option. So in that context, looking at it with a different lens, looking at it with a rural lens, you would look at sort of like consolidating car trips or making sure that services like health care and groceries and you know, the things that we take for granted in urban centers, making sure those are close like they're kept in communities, like a lot of services are kind of moving out of rural communities. And that doesn't necessarily seem like a net zero issue, but when people in those communities have to drive like, three times as long to get to their doctor, that's a huge, you know, emissions issue, you know. And it's just, it was an interesting look at the way that we're even myself, before I was doing this, I was like, well, cars are bad, like, you know, like gas cars aren't great for emissions. But the reality is, for rural communities, they need this transportation that there's no there's no other way for them to get around, and it would be incredibly isolating, and you can't function as a society if you're just stuck in your house, you know. So having that different lens and looking at it in a different context. I think that's really, really important as we move rural communities through this net zero transition.

Trevor Freeman 16:51

Yeah, it highlights a point that I know has been made here before, of the energy transition, regardless of where you are, requires a holistic approach. It requires some pretty nuanced thinking, and I think you're highlighting a really great example of that, of it's not just a piece of technology or it's not just a program that's going to resolve this problem for us, there are sort of cascading impacts of this, and primary health care provider shortage in rural communities is directly correlated to higher emissions in those communities and like, that's an interesting picture to paint and something that's important for us to remember. So, you mentioned this earlier, kind of the stats around how many people actually live-in rural communities, I think you said one in 20. That's over 200,000 people that are kind of not connected to, or this is a different stat I'm pulling here. Sorry. This is the number of people not connected to sort of the traditional electricity grid or to the natural gas grid here in Ontario. Talk us through a little bit more you mentioned, kind of the reliance on diesel in those communities. Talk us through sort of the unique challenges when you're not connected to the electricity grid. You don't have that transmission line coming into your community. What is the role that those traditional fuel sources, like diesel, for example, play in those communities?

Gemma Pinchin 18:12

Well, in those communities that aren't connected to, you know, natural gas or the electricity grid, like diesel used to be their only option. You know, modern life, we need electricity power like we need to power modern life. You can't have a modern existence without some form of power. So, you know, diesel, they are completely reliant on diesel. The ones that aren't connected. I mean, it's frustrating, because these communities do tend to be quite far away from the power grid infrastructure. So it's usually considered economically non-viable to connect those remote communities to the provincial power grids, because these communities are also very small. So, it's a small number of people that you would have to spend all this money for the infrastructure to get, you know, the power lines to them, and Canada, Ontario, Canada, both of them are very big, so there's many communities that exist quite far away from power lines or existing grid infrastructure. So, yeah. So yeah, diesel just, it's kind of been their only option for power to have a modern, modern existence, up until, I would say now, well, recently.

Trevor Freeman 19:27

Yeah, that's a great lead into kind of the next part of this is what comes next, if we're, if we're trying to get off of diesel, for example, for power generation, if, sort of the economics and the feasibility of bringing the traditional power grid to remote communities isn't really feasible. What role do other technologies play? And I'm thinking of obviously, like on site, renewable generation or storage, like, what's the option for these communities?

Gemma Pinchin 19:54

So that would kind of be entirely dependent on each community’s context, I guess what renewable energy would work there. So, on site, renewable energy is obviously one of the better solutions for diesel dependent communities. But what works in one community might not work in another community. So, you know, solar might work really well. You obviously have to have the right amount of sunlight, but then maybe less so in Ontario, but like, tidal energy for a coastal community might work better, you know? So, it's kind of dependent, and that's a big thing that came out of this research, is that there's not going to be a one size fits all. We can't just say all diesel dependent communities are now having a solar micro grid, and that's what's going to happen. Like you can't do that, but I do know of from my previous life working with indigenous energy planning and energy capacity in Ontario, there are some really cool examples of communities that were slash, are diesel dependent, that have implemented solar micro grids or are implementing, I don't know where, where they're at now, but as a way to get off diesel. And it is, there were some really cool projects that I got to kind of have a tiny little part of it was just a really interesting project to lessen their reliance on diesel.

Trevor Freeman 21:19

So you mentioned indigenous communities, and obviously, when we're talking about rural and remote communities, a lot of those are indigenous communities, or have a higher amount of indigenous population. Talk through the importance of indigenous engagement when it comes to planning and implementing projects like renewable energy projects, that's like a whole extra layer of complexity to some of this. Tell us a little bit about that space.

Gemma Pinchin 21:50

Yeah, so any project that touches indigenous land needs to have robust indigenous engagement. It's, it's their land. They need to, need to be engaged and listened to. It's really an issue of decolonization and decolonizing the energy grid, because it's returning that power that should have remained with them all the time. It's returning that to indigenous communities. And I think it's really important from a culturally obviously, to protect indigenous cultural sites and practices, but also from like a protection of the land. I think the statistic is that 80% of all biodiversity is currently protected by indigenous peoples globally. So, the number is huge. And so, if we're going to be doing any sort of work that's potentially disrupting some sort of biodiversity or anything like that. I think having those voices included is really, really important as we try to fight the climate crisis and any engagement with indigenous people and needs to be really robust, like it actually has to go somewhere. You can't just engage with indigenous people and then just go and do whatever you want. You've got to listen and act on what you're hearing. It's important for decolonization and reconciliation and biodiversity and indigenous culture as well.

Trevor Freeman 23:13

I mean, I think it's just highlighting what engagement actually is and what it isn't. And engagement is not going in and doing a really slick presentation on here's the solution, here's what we're going to implement. It's starting the conversation before the solution is developed, and saying, what is the context within which we're working? What are, what is this community bringing in terms of knowledge and experience? And so how can that local knowledge and expertise be sort of integrated into the decision making and really leveraged to identify appropriate solutions? I mean, you talk about that stat of how much of our protected biodiversity is really on indigenous land or indigenous controlled land, there's no question that there's a knowledge and an expertise there that can be leveraged for this talk us through what that looks like in terms of a strategy for resolving some of these energy challenges.

Gemma Pinchin 24:10

Yeah from my research, this could be indigenous communities or non-Indigenous communities. It kind of counts for everything. What I really found was that there was this push to do sort of a top down, bottom-up approach at the same time. So, the local community was really needed to implement the local context like I've been saying, No, there's no one size fits all, so understanding how to implement these solutions locally needs to come from the local context. But at the same time, we do need a national strategy that has the flexibility in order to provide that sort of like umbrella guidance for what what the local context kind of like. Needs to be achieving, but having that flexibility and that openness to allow local communities to figure out what works best for them in that context. And I don't, I don't really know what that that looks like beyond like that vague framework, but I think empowering local communities to have the, you know, the ability to tailor the solutions to their community is really, really important, because we cannot have a one size fits all solution, but we do need that sort of national guidance, otherwise there won't be that empowerment like that. There needs to be some sort of overarching body or government or whatever that looks like to provide that power to communities, because usually they're small communities, they can't just act and go off roguely on their own. So yeah, so really, that top down, bottom-up approach is really important.

Trevor Freeman 25:54

Is this also an opportunity, is the engagement process when it comes to resolving energy challenges, an opportunity for economic growth. For sort of, is it like a vehicle for that? Is it a vehicle for job creation? For example, in these communities?

Gemma Pinchin 26:14

Do you mean engagement in itself, or just the net zero transition?

Trevor Freeman 26:19

I mean, I think both. Yeah, it's like the engagement process and then the implementation and the solutioning process as well.

Gemma Pinchin 26:25

Yeah. So, I definitely think both would be an opportunity for job creation engagement. There would need to be sort of a community contact, which I sort of foresee being a funded role, funded by who? I'm not sure, but having, having that as a, you know, a paid position, I think would be, is really important as well, to bring funds into the community, to really solidify that. You know, energy companies, or whoever's doing the engagement, they're committed to community, building up the community, and then in terms of economic growth from the energy transition, I think this is a huge opportunity for job creation in rural, remote and indigenous communities. I think a key piece of that, though, is that there needs to be training programs for not because, not only do we need to build, you know, these renewable energy structures, we also need to be able to upkeep and maintain them as we're going along. So, you know, once the solar farm, or whatever it is, is built, there needs to be training for communities to be able to provide maintenance to these structures. But and even from a like on a smaller scale, sort of heat pumps, or having people who usually work on furnaces to be trained on how a heat pump works, so they're able to sort of facilitate that net zero transition. On a smaller scale, there needs to be training provided in rural communities, because we're seeing now that like people are wanting to transition over to, say, heat pumps, but there's not anybody locally who has any expertise on what that what that means, or what that looks like, or how, how to install that. There's only the, you know, the furnace guy. There's not in these rural and remote communities and indigenous communities. There's not anybody providing the, I mean, there's, there's no one there that knows how to do it or how to train people on it. So, if we want to capitalize on job creation, then we need to train people in how to do this. There was also, in my literature review, like one of the things, one of the key things that was looked at was, sort of the carbon sequestration and agriculture. And in agriculture, there was this issue that came up where farmers are now expected to not only provide enough food to sustain our society, they're now also expected to have like a plan for carbon sequestration on their land, but without any training or support of what that looks like and how, how that would work with their farm. So making sure that these tactics that we have, we're training the people locally on how to undertake them and how to keep them going.

Trevor Freeman 29:33

it's interesting. I'm having this I don't know what the word is, let's call it flashback. So, I started my career actually working in international development. I worked in rural Zambia. Oh, cool on water and sanitation. And this conversation you and I are having right now mirrors that conversation. This is going back about almost 20 years now. Of the number of you know well-meaning international funders that came. Into rural Zambia or rural Africa or other parts, and bunked down boreholes and wells and pumps to provide clean water, and then walked away. And three months later, a small little part breaks on that pump, and there's no one around to fix it. Yep, you can't use it. There's no supply chain to provide that washer, that not it. It's the it's almost frustrating. I mean, it is frustrating, I shouldn't say almost frustrating that it seems like such a simple, a simple thing to make sure that solutions implemented are supported in the way that a piece of technology needs to be supported, if it's in downtown Toronto, it still needs to be supported out in the rural community as well. And exactly, who better to support it than the people that live there.

Gemma Pinchin 30:48

Exactly, it's also, it also saves money, because, yeah, you don't have to shuttle someone out from the Toronto's of the world into like, five hours. Five hours is minimum. But like, you know, like, five hours outside of the city to be able to work on these, you know, wind turbines or heat pumps or whatever, the technological solution is, building capacity within local communities is always, it's always going to be a benefit.

Trevor Freeman 31:16

I think that the positive thing is that there's a there's this understanding, I think, that we need capacity building across the board. When it comes to the energy transition, we don't have enough heat pump technicians, heat pump installers, people that know how to do solar and storage. So, we already need to solve this problem when it comes to training people, we just need to make sure that includes our rural and rural communities, our indigenous communities, all these things, exactly. So that brings us to an interesting next question, which is, what's the role of the government here in making sure that this energy transition also works for rural and remote communities?

Gemma Pinchin 31:57

Yes, I've touched on this a little bit, but I definitely think that getting back to my umbrella approach, having sort of policy frameworks that work to empower local decision making and local action, I think that's the role of the provincial and federal governments, is what I'm thinking of. And then funding, funding is a huge piece for rural, remote and indigenous communities. Like I said, there's just not any extra, like in my example earlier, about, you know, diesel generation having to pay all that money to get diesel into the community. There's nothing extra to fund any sort of renewable energy technology. So these funding programs are crucial for these small communities to be able to break away from what they've been doing. They're kind of currently just like floating around the status quo. And that's, that's where they're at having funding available is, is a really key part, really key role, sorry, that federal and provincial governments can play. And then I also think training existing, like we just spoke about, but also training specific for people that work in fossil fuel industries. I think if we were going to have a just transition, we can't just leave people who have been working their whole lives on I'm thinking more Alberta, but people who have been working on oil rigs their entire lives, or in the oil and gas industry their entire lives, and now we're saying we need to move away from that, so we can't just abandon those people. So, making sure there's some sort of like retraining programs or anything like that. I think is a really key role for governments to play.

Trevor Freeman 33:44

For anybody out there who's kind of keeping score here, that's another example of the need for holistic like well thought out process and programs. Is not just about plunking a piece of technology and it's about, as you say, exactly, what do we do with folks who are in industries that are declining as a result of the energy transition? Yeah, you mentioned the financial aspect of this and the role that the government can play, you know, in helping get over that initial capital cost burden. Is there a particular structure or approach? Do you think that would uniquely work for rural and remote communities, or is it kind of similar to incentive programs that work across the board no matter where you are?

Gemma Pinchin 34:31

So, I think grant programs are a really great way for rural and remote communities and indigenous communities to be able to access funding for the initial capital cost. And then in terms of structure, I think, something that I've heard a few times now is that making sure that the application, if we're doing sort of a grant structure that I was thinking, or anything that that needs, sort of like an application reporting. Requirements, making sure that those requirements are not so onerous that it deters communities from applying. So, if we're thinking of a tiny community that has one person working on, you know, climate and energy and 12 other things that are on their desk, it doesn't make sense for them to have this like, hugely onerous task of applying, and then if they get it, you know the reporting structure, it's sort of impossible, and it makes it inaccessible. I heard a story of a community who they had to hire and consultant in order to provide a piece of the information that was needed just for the application, that doesn't even guarantee that you're going to get the funding. So not only you might not get the funding, and then you'd be out however much money it took for you to hire that consultant. So that kind of huge the burdensome applications and reporting is not going to work for rural, remote and indigenous communities like the Toronto's can, like they have the money to be able to hire consultants to do those that work, and it doesn't really affect them. But if you have a tiny budget, and it's just you doing this work, having, you know, not having the capacity in house, and then having to pay someone for funding that you may not get, it's just going to prevent people from applying. So having that, yeah, just making sure that the structure is reflecting the realities that exist in rural, remote and indigenous communities, is really important.

Trevor Freeman 36:32

Yeah, and speaking from experience of having applied for funding programs, as well as administering programs Once we've received funding, and that's both in my kind of current life as well as in past life, it can be a really big lift. And obviously there's a role for due diligence and scrutiny and making sure funds are spent effectively. But if it's a barrier for some segments of our society, that's a problem. The other thing I think I'd mention is, like the time it takes sometimes to learn about process apply for this funding. You know, those, those large, urban, sort of entities that have resources, can jump on this stuff really quick, and often by the times the smaller communities or smaller entities get around to it, the funding is all allocated and gone. And so I think protecting, protecting that in the process is pretty critical.

Gemma Pinchin 37:34

Yeah, and having, having specific funding streams that are only for rural and remote communities and indigenous communities, I think is really important as well.

Trevor Freeman 37:45

Yeah, absolutely. So, Gemma, it's, it's great that you have this, this approach and this, this view of of the challenge facing these communities. But obviously there's a lot of stakeholders involved that kind of need to adjust and align and figure this out. How do we make sure that those connections are happening, that all these different stakeholders, be it government or some of the technology or service providers as well as community members? How do we overcome that disconnect when it when it comes to this approach?

Gemma Pinchin 38:18

Yeah, so that's a huge, huge issue that I saw through this research and continue to see and my answer might be a bit fluffy bunny, but I really think that communication is a key thing. I don't think that all of I think the way that we're approaching it right now is very, very siloed, and everyone's kind of just doing their little part, making sure that we have communication between them, I think, is sort of the, the first, most basic step, you know, breaking down those silos and then having structures that support working together. So again, in that, maybe in that umbrella approach, having policies that support people working together, as opposed to having, you know, this, like competition, or, you know, this is my work, and I'm, I don't, I don't need to work with you, because it's not in my, like, exact purview, having, a structural system that makes sure that we're able to break down those silos, because we're not going to get anywhere if we don't. We need to make like we've been talking about, the holistic approach. We need to make sure that all of the stakeholders, and like everybody, is really working on this.

Trevor Freeman 39:39

Yeah, absolutely. What do you think our next steps are? What do you think is the sort of the most critical next step to ensure that we are moving in this direction, that we're actually going to start to see some progress here?

Gemma Pinchin 39:50

So I think in terms of, I mean, for rural and indigenous communities, I definitely think we need more research like what I'm. Doing. I think these are voices that haven't necessarily been heard, and if we're going to have an energy transition, we need to include these voices. And I think the best way to do that is to sort of do research like mine and figure out what their needs are, and how we can how we can progress to that next step. There's, I mean, there's some amazing thinking, specifically of like indigenous organizations that are already doing great work in this, this space, like indigenous clean energy and the Center for Indigenous Environmental Research. So, they, they're already doing this, but just consolidating all of that, that and having people governments actually listen, I think is really, really important. I think, yeah, those voices just need to be heard and listened to. Otherwise, we're not going to get anywhere. It'll be, like you said, like we just putting in technology and then just kind of, like leaving it there, and that's not, it's not going to work. We're not going to get anywhere with that, that sort of approach. So, making sure, you know, local context is understood and local voices are heard.

Trevor Freeman 41:15

Yeah, well, as we kind of wrap our conversation here, I guess, thank you for the work you're doing, and for elevating those voices and making sure that we're pulling, we're pulling that front and center in the conversation of the energy transition. And so, thanks to you and to Quest.

41:31

Thank you.

Trevor Freeman 41:33

So, we always wrap our interviews with a series of questions just to learn a little bit more about you. So, we'll dive right into that. Okay, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

Gemma Pinchin 41:45

So, this is my, my favorite book. It's called The Secret Life of Addie LaRue by Victoria Schwab, or V Schwab, and its a, it just, it's a really, it's a novel, and it's a really beautiful look. It's kind of fantasy. There's like a fantasy element, but it's a look at human connection and what it means to be known, and those, those kinds of pieces. And it's really beautifully written. And I just really love it.

Trevor Freeman 42:15

What about a movie or a show that you think everyone should watch?

Gemma Pinchin 42:20

So, there's a French film. It's called Portrait of a Lady on fire, and it's really beautifully done. The sound editing, there's like, no, no. It sounds weird, but there's like no music in the backgrounds, really. But there's pieces where music is played, and it's really poignant, and it's a it's a love story between two women, and it's just, it's really, it's really gorgeous and heartbreaking and all of the things I love.

Trevor Freeman 42:49

Yeah, that sounds awesome. If someone was to offer you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Gemma Pinchin 42:54

I'd go to Japan. That's where my fiancé and I are planning to take our honeymoon. So, we're kind of like looking into that and getting really excited about it. So that's where I would go.

Trevor Freeman 43:07

That's awesome. Who is someone that you admire?

Gemma Pinchin 43:09

My fiancé, she's just the strongest, she's kind. She's really practical, which is a really admirable quality, I think, for me, but also, you know, she's really empathetic, and, yeah, she's just a really magical person.

Trevor Freeman 43:29

Good answer. And to wrap it up, what is something about the energy sector or the energy transition that you are particularly excited about?

Gemma Pinchin 43:36

I'm really excited to see, sort of, the continued empowerment of local communities as we move through the energy transition, and how they're going to be able to move their communities through this climate crisis by looking at things you know, holistically the energy transition, but also, you know, biodiversity, nature based, carbon sequestration, and then also tying in sort of that holistic approach with, you know, healthcare and those pieces to better the community as a whole.

Trevor Freeman 44:09

Well, it'll be nice to as always as all parts of the sector. It's great to see success stories, and it'll be really great to see success stories in the space as well. So exactly, I'm also excited about that. Jeb, I thanks so much for your time today, and thanks for sharing your research with us. And like I said, elevating those voices, I really appreciate it.

Gemma Pinchin 44:29

Thank you for having me on.

Trevor Freeman 44:31

Thanks very much. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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Who is impacted by energy? We all are. Regardless of our roles, whether we work in the industry or not, we all use energy in some form or another. And we use it everyday. So, when it comes to energy transition, industry leaders must consider the end user. In episode 142 of thinkenergy, Greg Guthridge and Nicholas Handcock of EY Global share how stakeholders and utilities can better understand the consumer energy experience—and, ultimately, how to develop more informed strategies to the energy transition.

Related links

• EY Global: https://www.ey.com/en_gl
• EY Global ecoEnergy Profile quiz: https://www.ey.com/en_gl/ecoenergy-profile
• EY Global on X: https://twitter.com/EYnews
• EY Global on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ernstyoung
• Greg Guthridge on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregguthridge/
• Nicholas Handcock on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholashandcock/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Music. Hi. Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. Something I try to do on this show is to make sure that we're looking at the energy transition from a number of different perspectives. So, we obviously touch on the technologies that will be part of that transition, whether that's heat pumps or EVs or some of the grid technology that utilities like hydro Ottawa are beginning to roll out to modernize our grid. We also look at the overall governance and policy structure that guides our you know, societal energy decisions, how we choose to go about using energy, making energy, etc., in our society, the role of the various stakeholders on the grid gets touched on understanding kind of who the players are. There's a bit of an education piece here of knowing who all the complex players are in this, in this kind of system. And one thing that we've touched on before that I think is really important to keep bringing to the forefront is the end users of energy. And frankly, that's all of us, no matter what other roles in the transition we might play. We're all end users. We all need to heat our homes and workplaces. We all need to move around in some manner. We need lights, we need to cook, we need to charge our devices. And we don't really want to have to worry about those things. We want that to be smooth and easy and how we as end users of energy are experiencing and interacting with and in some cases, taking a leadership role in the energy transition. That's really important, because we need all those things, and we want all those things to be smooth. It's important for our utility companies to understand and to take that into account when we're planning our and I'm speaking as a member of utility. Now, when we're planning our strategies and programs and products, we need to take into account, how does this impact our end users of energy? How are they going to experience this? So, my talk today is with Greg Guthridge and Nicholas Hancock of EY global. Greg is EY Global's powering utilities customer experience transformation leader and Nicholas leads EY research program that's called navigating the energy transition. Both of them ultimately help various stakeholders, including utilities, better understand consumer values, their preferences and their aspirations for their energy experience, which ideally will lead to more informed strategies and approaches to the energy transition for those decision makers, whether that's at the policy or the regulatory or the kind of utility implementation level. So, I'm really excited to talk to Greg and Nicholas today and hear their insight into the work that they've been doing. Greg and Nicholas, welcome to the show. Thanks, Trevor, great to be here. Thanks for the invitation to share our perspectives today. Sure. So, I always like to start getting to know a little bit from our guests of how they got into the energy space. And Greg not to kind of put you on the spot or embarrass you, but you've been named as one of consulting magazine's 25 consultants for excellence in energy, which is a rather lofty sounding title. I understand. You have several patents in the US for energy efficiency and demand management analytics. Tell us a little bit about your journey and how you came to be in the energy space.

Greg Guthridge 04:00

Yeah. Trevor, it was really interesting my journey. You know, it's, you can think of it a little bit as an accidental process here. I didn't leave college thinking that I would be a consumer person in the energy space. In fact, I also, I thought for a long time that utilities were kind of a boring and dusty part of the energy ecosystem. I wanted to be in marketing or in manufacturing, or someplace, you know, considerably more sexy. But what's interesting is, you know, what an amazing journey into what I believe is kind of the center of the universe. Now, you know, energy is everything for us, and I can't think of a more interesting and dynamic place to be at the moment as we think about how we're going to transition to a cleaner, safer, more secure energy system in the future. So, it's been, it's been fascinating to kind of make my way down this path, but I'm super happy to be right at the center of what I think is one of the most, most critical elements of our society and our economy moving forward.

Trevor Freeman 04:00

Absolutely and my goodness, if, if I ever meet that person who you know 20, 30, years into their career, is doing what they thought they would do at the end of college or university, I feel like I'd strike a gold mine. But now let's pivot over to EY global, and the work that EY does in the energy sector, specifically the role when it comes to the energy transition, tell us a little bit about what EY is doing in that space.

Greg Guthridge 05:39

Oh, Trevor, it's fascinating. EY has really taken a very progressive approach to helping our clients, a broad swath of clients, from industry to manufacturing to energy to utilities, you name it, across the spectrum. Really imagine you know how their capabilities; their value propositions and their customer experience need to evolve. Of course, I I represent the customer element of the EY practice in utilities and in resources, but we have experts that that can help with everything from infrastructure to generation to renewables, to audit and tax and financial services, and you name it. In the customer space, we're really laser focused on helping our clients think about and imagining. You know that if you think about it, the typical utility to date is, is the is the product of over 100 years’ worth of development. Most utilities were formed in the Edison era, many, many years ago, and they have a big challenge on their hands. They've got to find a way to kind of evolve not only their business and operating models, but also their regulatory and their customer experiences to really form fit to the future, and that EY is right at the center of offering a whole gamut of different capabilities across the spectrum, across their value proposition, to help them through that, that transition.

Trevor Freeman 07:15

Now you use the word customer, I assume you're talking about that end user of energy, that end user, of, you know, electricity, in the context of our conversation today is, do you differentiate between sort of that residential user, someone in their home and powering their appliances, versus, you know, medium, commercial business, versus those large, mammoth users at the data center level?

Greg Guthridge 07:39

Yeah, Trevor, I'm glad you brought up the word customer, because we use that word as kind of an overarching term. And let me maybe, if you don't mind, I'll, I'll dive in a little bit more on that, because customer is, is actually, you know, I'll use it on occasion, but it's actually a bit of an old-fashioned term, believe it or not, it's, we try to use the term consumer, or, even better, omni-Sumer, when we talk about the participants in the energy experience moving forward, and we're picking these words carefully, because customer kind of implies a one-way interaction. Consumer implies that you're dealing with a customer or a participant that's two way that's engaging, you know, in a much more active capacity. And then you get into omni-Sumer, which is the what we believe, really the consumer of the future. These are participants that are, you know, multi-channel, Multi Product, multi provider, a many to many kinds of experience. So, you'll hear me use them all interchangeably, but really, what we're trying to convey is that, you know, the good old days of somebody at the end of the value chain just receiving a bill for our energy that they take for granted is disappearing. Now, to your actual question, you know, around, you know, the different strata of consumers. We do think of it in terms of, there's residential customers, you know, the mass market, the people at home, and then we have a number of other sorts of major categories that that we think about. There are small and medium businesses, large, commercial and industrial. There's a category which we call mush, which is municipal and universities and schools and hospitals. And then there's a, you know, kind of new categories of consumers that are forming peer to peer, and prosumer, type of consumers that that are trading energy, you know, you know, they've got, they might have electric vehicles or solar or storage, and they're not just consuming electricity for their own benefit, they're actually selling it back into the grid or to others and becoming more of a business partner along the way. So, the takeaway here is that what used to be a passive one way. Customer experience is now leaning into a much more two way engaged and much more complex consumer experience between the energy provider and their and their participants.

Trevor Freeman 10:14

Yeah, and I don't want to paint the picture that this is unique to the energy space or the utility space, because so many different industries we hear about it all the time are being disrupted by changing technology, changing customer preferences. But I think it's really true in the utility space that as you described, the customer, or the consumer of even 20, 30, years ago, doesn't really exist anymore. Is fast becoming kind of out of date, and that whole landscape is changing drastically as we move forward. And so, all the things that we're going to talk about next are kind of in the context of we're looking forward, and we don't necessarily have a great model in the past to tell us, what is that relationship with a customer going to be 20 30, years down the road, because it's changing so rapidly,

Greg Guthridge 11:02

you betcha,

Trevor Freeman 11:04

just to throw one more one more variable at you, it's not just the different types of customers that a company like EY global is dealing with, because you work across the globe in many different jurisdictions, you're also dealing with different regional challenges when it comes to the energy transition. You know, energy typically is a at least partially or fully regulated sector. You're dealing with different regulatory bodies, different governments. Tell us how you approach that difference. And so obviously, as our listeners know, I'm sitting here in Ontario. Has got a pretty complex regulatory environment. How do you tailor your services or your advice to your customers or to your clients in those different areas?

Greg Guthridge 11:51

Yeah, fascinating question, Trevor, and you're absolutely right. The regulatory models, the products and services, even the consumer bases, they vary dramatically. You know, market by market, country by country, region by region. At EY, we take a kind of a two-pronged approach. The first is that, you know, there's more similarities than there are differences. When you kind of peel back the curtain and you look at the basics, and the basics are, we have to find a way to provide to help our utility clients provide the most effective, affordable and safe and secure, reliable energy. And from a consumer perspective, that really leans in on a couple of key pillars that don't vary anywhere that affordability, value based, cost effectiveness of operations, revenue growth and along the way. Let's make this as engaging as possible for consumers and employees, so the basic building blocks actually don't vary that much around the world. What does vary is whether you're regulated or not your products and services vast differences in the kinds of products and services that really resonate with consumers. And that doesn't just go for regional differences. It also goes for just variations in demographics and other, you know, social kind of variations that you see with consumers. And in that case, EY takes a very, you know, client centric approach. So, we take our building blocks that we believe are fairly universal, and then how we implement those in a particular region or with a particular utility, that becomes a much more unique and custom process, where we work really closely with the client to be as centric as possible in in thinking about for this particular utility in this particular market, what's going to make the best sense and what's your priority? So, it's a bit of a combination of trying to use standard building blocks, but then apply it in the most customized process imaginable.

Trevor Freeman 14:06

Yeah, and then, just speaking from experience, working at the sort of, you know, distribution utility level, right down, I guess you can say on the ground, with the customers. It's then our challenge at the utility to take that insight, to take that learning and figure out how to apply it or how to use it to support our specific customers, consumers, individually. So great, great to break it out like that. Okay, I want to ask you about EY's voices of the energy consumers initiative, and this is some research that you did and trying to help us understand who is out there engaging with energy, and what are they thinking. Trying to profile some of these individuals a little bit. It reminds me of that technology adoption curve that folks may be familiar with, and able to identify where they fall on that curve. So. Tell us about or give us an overview of that, of that initiative, and what you're trying to understand from that.

Greg Guthridge 15:07

Trevor, I'm going to start the response to this, and then I'm going to hand it over to Nicholas Hancock, who leads our research. To give a bit more of some color commentary on how we structured our research. But to start up with we really about four or five years ago, we started to really think about the supply and demand of the energy transition. And a lot of focus around the world is on the supply side, building the infrastructure, building in new renewable and green and sustainable sources, getting all of the technology to get cleaner power from one place to another, from an engineering perspective. And what we really started to realize is that as part of the energy transition, if you think about it, we're trying to do a generation of change in just a couple of decades. And on the demand side of this equation, we've got a bunch of very complex consumers, consumers that you know interact and behave irrationally with different behaviors. Some will be very excited about the energy transition. Others will be very reticent, and everything in between, and so in order for the energy transition to accelerate and to achieve the benefits that we're all looking for, we need to find a way to engage the consumer in ways which, frankly, are going to really push the envelope with consumers. So we started our research program, and Nicholas Hancock, who's on, uh, has been leading the charge. And I think Nick, if you don't mind, can you give us a quick overview on the global nature of the research and how we've approached it?

Nicholas Handcock 16:52

Yeah, absolutely. So we started our research program about three years ago, really trying to take a global view, mixing regions that are both, some of them really leading out there on the front edges of the energy transition. So, we've got countries, for example, like Sweden, that are, you know, kind of further down the path as well as, you know, North America, which is, I would say, a little bit more in the middle. And then we've got some countries that are maybe lagging or taking their own paths in the energy transition. We've included countries like China, Singapore. We included Indonesia last year. So really a global view of what are consumers kind of thinking in terms of how they approach the energy transition, what sort of products and services are they interested in, and what are the values and preferences that they bring to it when it comes to their energy providers, but also a broader ecosystem of providers that we see emerging out there, who are they really interested in turning to when it comes to advice, when it comes to learning about solutions, purchasing them, and even things like, for example, control over solutions in the home, which, when it comes to, you know, energy, flexibility in the future is really important. We've been exploring how do different consumers approach and feel about this. And so, what we did is we, develop a survey, we're entering our fourth year of doing that. Now we work with a third party to do those surveys online across the globe. So, it is sort of an independent third party that helps us to perform those and then we take those results back and take a look at what we see. And to your point, Trevor around, sort of the voices of the transition we've been looking at, how do some of those different groups break out? What are the different values of different aspects of those consumers out there? Because even sitting around the dinner table, I'm sure everybody can feel we don't all have the same opinions when it comes to energy, and even more so when it starts to come to things like changes to your home or changes to your vehicles. So that's really what we've been exploring for the last number of years.

Trevor Freeman 18:41

Yeah, great. So, you've identified five different, let's call them archetypes or types, you know, profiles, if you will. You call them your eco energy profiles. Can you walk us through each of the five and give us a little summary of you know who that person is, or who that individual is that fits within that profile?

Greg Guthridge 19:01

Sure. Trevor. You know what we did is, having looked at all these different markets, we found some pretty interesting similarities, and the percentages of the population that fit into these five categories, it varies quite significantly, market by market, country by country, geography by geography, but there is some there's a way for us to more simply think about a incredibly complex, fragmented, distributed customer base, residential mass market customer base, into what we think are really simply five different categories. And we the organization of these five categories. We've thought about them from a behavioral perspective, from a value from you know, what's their interests, and how do they plan to engage? And sort of in sequence here, I'll talk about the five, and I'll put them in the order of from most active to least active. I'll describe each of these. And the key thing here to keep in mind is that there's no wrong place to be as a residential customer. And you can actually flip around. You can move from one place to another almost overnight. So, it's quite a fluid approach here. But the first category is what we call the energy champions. They're the savvy customers. They're actually the customers that have been the first to move and the ones that we see in the news already. They're probably already using new energy products and services in their home. They might have solar on the roof. They could potentially have storage. They might already be using an electric vehicle. We make fun of this category a little bit. They're usually the ones that pre order their iPhone. They might already have a have a have an interest in the new Tesla truck or some other you know, device. They're absolutely the innovators. They're the early movers, and they're interested in spending time researching. They're going to pay attention to where their energy source is coming from, and they're going to be quite active. So those are the energy champions. The next category is what we call the energy enthusiasts, and this is actually the one that that we have to pay the most attention to. They're the fast followers. They're the energy conscious category. And when they when they observe what the champions are doing, and when they get a bit more comfortable and they start to move, they actually will influence the whole market. And as the enthusiasts maybe slightly a little more cautious, but they're also the fast followers, so once they can see the value proposition, once they're convinced that the technologies and capabilities are for real, then they're going to move. They may not pre order their iPhone, but they're probably pretty close in terms of thinking about how they're going to advance into the energy market. The next category is the novice category, or the agnostics. And what's interesting about these this category is this segment of customers or consumers. They they're actually, you know, pretty passive. They can see the value proposition. They can see that there's, there's a lot of people taking interest in it, but for a number of different reasons, they're not moving. They're very novice, they're very they're very agnostic, and it's because they're starting to think about other things, like, well, all right, I can see that I can save money, or I can do something that will improve the environment, but it's just going to take too much time, or I have other priorities or whatever. So as a as an industry, we need to find a way to kind of activate and excite. We need to make it as effortless and frictionless as possible for this category of consumers to move, and they will move, and they will do things, but they're, they're just influenced by a whole lot of other variables that, that you know, that that they believe, are a higher priority. The fourth category is what we call the bystanders, or the skeptics, and they are the ones that are a little bit they're not, they're a bit mistrusting, frankly, of the messaging around the energy transition, around sustainability or environmental and they're probably going to take a fairly skeptic approach to is this for real? Is it really going to provide me benefit? Is it really going to, you know, advance my personal capabilities? And so, what's interesting about this group is they're, they're actually very interested in new energy products and services, but for different reasons. So, they're going to want, you know, more control. They're going to want, maybe, off grid capabilities. And so, they, they're actually as interested as the others, but the way you approach them is going to be very, very different. And the final category are the allies. And this is a, you know, energy is a household necessity. And this category is very dependent. There they might have, you know, income challenges. They might have other challenges that that that we have to look after. It is a critical household service that we provide, and we need to make sure that we look after, you know, the low income, the vulnerable, the medical dependencies that you find in the allies or the dependent category. So, the range of consumers across these five will vary. We've got a great little quiz that you can take out there on ey.com or you can go out and answer some questions, and it'll tell you which kind of consumer you are today. But it's yeah, we see that most consumers will fit into one of these five categories and then move from there, depending on what's happening in their life. Experiences.

Trevor Freeman 25:02

I agree. I'm glad you brought up that quiz, because I know I spent a bit of time going through it and just reading the descriptions. I was pretty sure I knew where I fit in that, and the quiz kind of made me realize, yeah, it can change from time to time. It can change from answer to answer, and depending on what it is. So, it's interesting. And for our listeners, if you have a chance, check it out. You can just, I don't know, Google EY eco energy profiles, and it'll come up, I'm sure. Thanks for explaining that, Greg. And my next question is, why? Why does it help us to have these profiles in mind as we approach the energy transition as the utility industry, as energy providers out there in the sector?

Greg Guthridge 25:44

Oh, good question. Trevor, yeah. What's the point of all of this? Why? What are we trying to do? And here's the thing, we can't approach the consumer base as one homogenous group of people. That's insane, if you think about it. No other industry would do that there that you have, we have to target our messaging, our value propositions, even our customer interaction channels, so that we can appeal to the lifestyles and the interests and the behaviors and the overall approach for each of these different customers. So, a spray and pray one size all approach won't work. What we need to do instead is be as tailored as we can. And what we're suggesting is we don't have to we don't have to go crazy here. We don't have to have hundreds and hundreds of different kinds of customer segments. We can really gravitate around five that really cover 80% of the customer base very, very well, and this will help the utility in many ways. It will help them think about and target their programs, their products, their services, so that they're not wasting a lot of time and effort promoting to one customer base or one segment something that just isn't going to resonate, they can start to vary their propositions and their interactions for products, programs and services accordingly. We think it'll help save money, and it will help the effectiveness of the targeting with these customer bases in a much more thoughtful manner.

Trevor Freeman 27:21

Great during your research. Did anything really jump out at you as notable or surprising, you know, unexpected when it comes to those, those beliefs or that, those values that people hold when it comes to energy? Did anything really stick out, as you know, worth noting?

Greg Guthridge 27:39

Great question, and there's a couple of observations that we've had in the research that that sort of drift to the top fairly quickly. The first is that sustainability and environmental messaging only really applies to a third of consumers. The majority of consumers are actually much more motivated by other creature comforts when they're when they're buying products and services. And so, while it's an it's important for us to, for us, for the industry, to share environmental and sustainable products and services and the benefits of those we also need to augment that with other buyer values that the actually the majority of customers still prioritize. And this is, you know, convenience, comfort, control, price, affordability, reliability, those are the bedrocks. And what we found is just leading, just leading with a sustainable message probably is limiting the appeal of the products and services. And so, if we can make sure that we always really kind of tailor our messaging with a broad swath of buyer values, we're probably going to appeal to more consumers. So that's the first thing that we found relatively surprising, and it doesn't, it's not actually surprising, if you think about it, because, you know, environmental and sustainable messages is really kind of an intangible benefit for most people. It's and what we need to do is really find ways to be much more concrete and tangible and real around benefits that customers can touch and feel and smell immediately in that as they make their investments in their energy experience. That's the first thing. The second is that when we look at the consumer base, we need to remind ourselves that the old guard, the you know, the Generation X and the generation Ys are now being replaced with the millennials and generation zeds, and they want something different from their energy provider. They're not particularly in the space where they're going to benefit from the same things that the generations previous to them. And they're going to want more subscription based pre pavement pay as you go, kind of capabilities. They're going to be much more digital in their interactions. And they're, you know, we need to make sure that we're designing the energy experience of the future for the future, and not for the traditional segments of or, you know, age stratification that we've got in the past. So, we need to hand the baton over to the millennials and the generations that who will ultimately decide the success of the energy transition.

Trevor Freeman 30:33

Yeah, I think it really does highlight the need, you know, both of those kinds of last two explanations, the need for us and the utility sector to really be empathetic to who our customers are and to what they're thinking and how they approach things. And we've talked before on this show about not just holding our own values and approaching things with our own values, but understanding what our customers values are and kind of meeting them where they're at. And I think your research just highlights the importance of that as well. You also wrote an article where you noted that most energy consumers kind of feel like they're already doing everything they can to shift their behaviors and habits when it comes to energy consumption. And that's not to say that they don't recognize there's more that can be done, but they feel like they are giving it their all. You know, they can't afford to do more, or they don't have the time to do more that they're kind of maxed out. You know, 70% of, I think, respondents to your to your survey, said that they're not willing to spend any more time or money to do more. And you've come up with these three A's of energy, and I'd like you to talk us through what those three A's are?

Greg Guthridge 31:43

Sure. Trevor, yeah, definitely. We it's consumers are telling us that. You know, based on their current environment, their current economics, their household experience, that they're pretty much doing everything they can. If you take that eco score, you'll find out pretty quickly that there's all kinds of things that we're expecting consumers to do. Consumers really do. Need to change their lifestyle. Businesses need to change their business practices in ways that are really going to push the envelope beyond most people's comfort zone. So we've got a bit of a challenge here, which is the research is clear. Consumers are saying we're already doing everything we can, and we can see that there's all kinds of things that that we still need to do up and down the value chain. I'm going to hand this back over to Nicholas to give us a little bit more of an overview of the three A's and how we use the three A's and thinking about how we're going to appeal to consumers in a much more thoughtful way. So over to you. Nicholas,

Nicholas Handcock 32:45

Thanks, Greg. Yeah, the three A's is something that is really what's the foundation of the energy experience to really bring along everybody. And I think one of the key ones we mentioned a little bit here is affordability, and it's come up in our survey. Is increasingly important in the last couple of years, as we've seen practically across the globe. Prices of everything have gone up, but at prices of energy have also gone up, and we see a lot of consumers saying that they're feeling quite stretched when it comes to their home bills and their energy bills. And in fact, most people say they can't even absorb a 10% increase in their energy costs. And so affordability is kind of on edge and on top of people's minds. But then we also see consumers really interested in things like prepaid energy or more subscription based energy type services. So I think you know, when it comes to affordability, we're not always able to lower the prices that there is a fact that energy requires an investment, but there are maybe more innovative and creative ways that we can work with consumers to help them manage that affordability. And that's one of the key points, is, how do we think about that in new and different ways and get more creative and work with our regulators to really to do that? The second piece of the second A is access. And, you know, access to the products and services, access to the benefits of the energy transition, have been maybe rather narrow. To date, there's been a smaller group of folks who have been able to afford an electric vehicle or afford to put solar or battery storage on their homes or install a heat pump, and start to see some of the savings. And what we see is a lot of consumers are starting to say that they're feeling a bit left behind by the solutions that are out there today in the energy transition. So when it comes to access, there's an idea of kind of equity, and how do we make this a bit more equitable and have solutions available to all? And again, I think it requires a bit more creativity. Some of some things like community solar or even community wind farms that we see popping up in the UK, are interesting solutions to help more people come along, and then you've got a lot of subsidies or rebates and things available, but not everybody knows about those so there's a role to play to help educate consumers, make sure they're aware of it, but also just make it an easy experience for them to access those things, because we see that that can often be a challenging experience. And then the final one, Greg, you mentioned appeal. That's our final A which is, how do we actually these different kinds of consumers out there that we've. On the residential side, but we've also got small, medium businesses, which are very diverse across different sectors, and then on the commercial, industrial side, different types of companies looking for really different kinds of solutions to achieve their goals. And how do we actually appeal to all of these different organizations and customers? And you know what it is that's important, is that, and you said it, Trevor, how do we appeal to the values that they've got to really what they're looking for in terms of outcomes, and it's going to be different for everybody. So it requires a much more targeted and tailored approach to thinking about consumers and that empathy to really understand what's important to them, what's important to their business, and what's important to kind of the bottom line for those large business customers as well, and make it really you know, appealing energy can be fun. We see it in some other markets that you know, for example, power shop in New Zealand's always one of my favorites. They're really a fun brand that's all about prepay energy and a digital customer experience with really fun social media. How do we start to make it fun, for example, for consumers who do want to engage, and how do we make it just dead simple and set and forget for consumers that want it that way as well. So that's really the three A's that we see as the foundation of this future energy experience.

Trevor Freeman 36:07

Thanks for that, Nicholas, I appreciate it, and I think that it kind of leads into the next question that I have. You've already addressed it a little bit, but you also talk about how energy providers are really good at investing in technology. We're good at knowing kind of, let's call it the nuts and bolts, or the poles and wires of energy. We know how to get those electrons, in the case of electricity, out to our consumers. And as we look at the energy transition, there's almost this, like knee jerk reaction to say, Yeah, okay, well, more poles, more wires, more transformers. But there's this whole human element of the energy transition that also needs attention and needs to be invested in. Can you expand a little bit on that human element, and how utilities and energy stakeholders can kind of lean into that to help address some of these challenges?

Greg Guthridge 37:00

Oh, Trevor, great question. And you know, if you think about it, energy is, is it's taken for granted, for by most people, it's, it's, it's just there. And when it's not there, you become incredibly irrational. So you switch from being rational to irrational in record time at the very moment, but your power's out. And there is another interesting element to energy it. If you think about if you look at customer interactions, 70% of customer interactions are actually negative with their utility. And it's not, it's not the utility's fault. Usually, it's just a negative experience. My power is out. I can't pay my bill. I'm moving house, which is one of the top 10 most stressful events in people's lives. All of these thing’s kind of add up to, you know, a negative and irrational interaction around energy. It's when it's on and it's working and it's affordable, great, no problem. But when anything goes wrong, you see consumers kind of switch to being quite irrational, very, very quickly. And what's interesting is, if you think about the customer experience, and I don't you know, historically, it's we've designed this, you know, with engineers and financiers involved in the process. And it's, it is, it's very methodical, and it's, it's very logical, but is it really suited for irrational consumer behavior? Maybe, maybe not, especially when we start to think about the new distributed energy and all these new kinds of products and services that are coming down the path. This leans us into the kind of so what which is we probably would benefit as an industry if, if every utility and every organization hired a behavioral scientist, somebody who's really, you know, very savvy and in these, in these different kinds of customer segments or profiles, and how and what those customers really value, and how they're going to interact. And start to tailor as best we can. We don't want to overdo it, but we, you know, tailor and form our product services and interaction channels for these different consumer bases, that would be a, you know, that will be necessary, and we see that we're inspired by what's helped happen in telecommunications and cable and some of the other service home service providers, how they have really leaned in on A much more behavioral approach to their consumer base.

Trevor Freeman 39:42

Yeah, and, I mean, I guess, keeping with the theme of three chunks of threes, you kind of expand and you take that into these three areas of action that energy providers can take to help their consumers on that journey, as we talked about and you even make the note of saying the companies, energy companies, have to do everything all at once quickly. We can't sort of pick and choose when it comes to rethinking the way we're engaging with our customers, our consumers. So help me understand these three areas of actions that that are so critical for energy companies?

Greg Guthridge 40:20

Yeah, again, I'm going to hand this over to Nicholas in a moment. The you know, the message is that, again, we are we're trying to accelerate an energy transition measured in decades rather than in generations, and so we've got to walk and chew gum at the same time. And that utilities are immensely complex organizations that are already doing that, obviously. I mean, we're the infrastructure and the complexity to deliver, you know, electricity and natural gas to consumers is an Herculean activity already, and what we're suggesting is it's going to be even more complex now as we try to engage consumers in in, you know, these three key areas. So Nicholas, over to you, just to give a quick overview on what some of those key priorities are that we all have to juggle simultaneously.

Nicholas Handcock 41:12

Yeah, you bet. And it's, you know, it's probably overly simplified, but to get it down to threes, I think the first one that we talked about is really thinking about reinventing the basics. And I know, Greg, it's one of your favorite things to talk about, spring cleaning that you know, a lot of utilities are really the product of, you know, 100 years of history and of built-up complexity and taking a step back and saying, how do we really simplify a lot of our internal processes? How do we simplify and automate things to help the employee experience, but also flip that lens to the customer side? How do we make things as effortless and easy as possible for customers, really, across every kind of interaction that we could be having with them? You know, focusing on like one and done, we really finished. Finished, start, finish. What we start when it comes to customer experience, so that reinventing of the basics and that comes also to areas like outage and reliability, where we see that being more and more important in a lot of places. How do we think back to that experience and make it really the best that it can be? I think the second area, we call it onboarding of the new which is, how do we make you know, consumers? How do we go and engage them and really more of a personalized way? How do we tailor things to the best that we can in a cost effective manner, and really start to bring in those new programs and products and services that we want to take to customers and have that new messaging for them, and build a new kind of relationship, as Greg said, meeting customers where they are, and creating a new kind of connection point with customers when it comes to energy. And the final thing is really thinking about scaling for the outcomes that we're trying to achieve. And there's a lot of things to focus on here. I think a lot of utilities have gotten stuck in pilot mode when it comes to a number of things, whether it be new programs or new products and services or things like new technology, like artificial intelligence. And what we see is that the time for sort of pilots and testing is really over. Consumers and the energy transition are moving forward very quickly, and it's time to really reach for scale when it comes to things like introducing new technologies to make experiences better, to simplify, but also scaling those new products and services in a way that's going to be effective for a future that has sort of mass adoption. We're moving beyond the early adopters. And now we need to think about moving from pilots to scale. And so that scaling for outcomes is really the third place to focus on.

Trevor Freeman 43:29

Yeah, and that's a great I like kind of ending up there that looking at, what does this look like when we move past that pilot stage, past that Imagineering stage, if you will. And that's kind of where I want to wrap things up today with my last question. And I'm going to put you guys on the spot a little bit here and ask you to, you know, think about those stakeholders in the energy sector that you're working with. You know, knowing your reach is global, who are doing a really good job of this, who are further down this path towards the transition than others are, and what does it look like, both for that, both for that kind of utility actor, as well as the consumer, when you've got an energy sector, when you've got an energy system that is closer to where it will be in this future that we've been talking about than where we are today, with maybe some of those lagging actors. What does that look like? What is it like to have an energy sector that's really through the transition, if you will, or close to that?

Greg Guthridge 44:33

Oh, Trevor, yeah, let's, let's pull out our, our, our little crystal ball, and see what the future is here. The future is ubiquitous energy. The future is consumers who are multi product, multi-channel and multi provider, and who have a connected ecosystem of energy devices that they can override and control, but are also. So simple and automated in many ways, they we have simple, clear too easy to understand billing and payment capability that's fully integrated, and we're providing a convenient, effortless and frictionless experience, both for residential customers, for the mass market, as well as for businesses, we're leaning in on new energy load growth, whether that's, you know, data centers and any number of other things, and we're leaning in on this convergence of the home and the automobile, which is going to be a fascinating transition in the future. So how and what that is going to look like in the future is going to vary dramatically for different utilities, and the duration that it will take will also vary dramatically. That's really where we're headed, and it's super exciting to see this, this unfolds across the globe.

Trevor Freeman 46:04

I think it's helpful to try and get in that headspace from time to time, because we spend a lot of time talking about where we are now and the challenges we face and the big things that have to happen, and we talk about the solutions as these kind of nebulous things, but really thinking of what's the day to day, like when we get through this energy transition, or when we move further than we are today, I think is helpful to give us that I don't know, call it hope for where we want to be in the energy sector. So to wrap up our conversation today, I always ask our guests a series of questions, just to help kind of get to know you and get out of this space for a little bit. So given that there's two of you, I'll just throw the questions out there, and either one of you can answer. You can fight over who gets to answer or who has to answer. I'll leave that up to you. So, to start us off, what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

Greg Guthridge 46:56

Oh, what an interesting question. And it's interesting. We have a we actually have a book club at EY, a monthly book club, and we've covered, I very kind of different book. And what's fascinating is, after two or three years of having a an internal book club at EY, my favorite book isn't even on the list yet, and it's actually called the future we choose. And the author is Christine Figuerellis. I think I might have heard her last name, but the future we choose, and it's a really optimistic book on the future of how we can navigate. It presents the challenge ahead, but also gives us hope and optimism in how we're going to navigate that that transition. So great, great little book, a good read, nonfiction to some extent, and worth a quick, worth a quick read.

Nicholas Handcock 47:58

I'm surprised you didn't, didn't pick it, Greg, because I know this is one of your favorites, but I thought I'd thrown out as one that I think everyone should read is that it's a bit of an older book, The Effortless Experience, by Matt Dyson, and it's, you know, it's all about customer experience and how most customers really just want the simplest customer experience possible. And that's really what moves the needle, is making it easy and effortless for people, and even proactively making it so they don't have to connect and contact us. And I think as utilities, it's a good one to think about. As the experience gets more and more complicated, how do we actually make it simpler?

Greg Guthridge 48:30

Yeah. Nicholas, you named it that's, that's, that's, you know, for years, that's been one of my favorite books. So yeah, the effort listed customer experience. Matt Dyson, great book.

Trevor Freeman 48:42

Both of those are great I love the idea of holding on to that hope and optimism and then that sort of practical look at, how do we how do we let customers have the easiest experience with us as possible? Both of those are great choices. So, the next question is kind of the same, but for a movie or show what's a movie or show that you think everyone should have a look at?

Greg Guthridge 49:04

Oh, yeah, Trevor, we've all, you know, we all survived the pandemic with all kinds of different media options here. And, you know, actually, during covid, one of the movies that resonated with me was this was a book or was a movie called The biggest little farm. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's a it's a fascinating sort of journey around sustainability. And you know the creativity that those residential customers can take. It's, it's fun, it's light, it's a good Friday evening kind of movie, if you know what I mean. So have a chance. Check it out. I think it's four or five years old now, but it's called the biggest little farm,

Trevor Freeman 49:52

Perfect. My next question is, now, now both of you guys’ travel, I think, a fair amount, so this is either going to be an easier or harder question for you to answer, but if someone gave you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Greg Guthridge 50:07

Well, that's easy for me. I'd probably go to either New Zealand or Italy. New Zealand because of the amazing environment and landscape, and it's just it's such a beautiful part of little pocket of the world, and Italy for its food, that would be easy. Nicholas?

Nicholas Handcock 50:24

I think I would jump on a plane to Japan. Greg and I both spent some time working there as the market and energy was liberalizing. And it's such a unique and interesting place that I just absolutely love and sort of on the nerdy side, from the energy side of things, it's very interesting where you've got, you know, subway companies and things selling electricity in Japan, which is, you know, different and unique from a lot of places in the world.

Trevor Freeman 50:48

So cool. I mean, I've done a bit of traveling as well, and I think those, those things that you guys both highlighted. I mean, food, for sure, is phenomenal to go somewhere else and experience different food. And nothing really beats good Italian food in Italy, but also those examples that you brought up Nicholas, of just different ways of doing things that we don't consider or don't seem to fit within our culture here, that maybe we should be looking at. And yeah, I love kind of seeing those examples and hearing about those examples. So, both great, great answers. Okay, so to wrap it up, then, what is something about the energy sector or its future that really excites you, that you're really pumped about

Greg Guthridge 51:27

I'm excited that we are approaching the energy experience from a technology and operations, a consumer lens, and you can see a future, an Ubiquitous Energy Future, where consumers are much more active in their experience. They're benefiting from that experience. We don't we can do this. We can make it affordable, we can make it reliable, and we can make it much more convenient for consumers in the future. So it's just going to be fascinating to see this convergence of technology, of societal along with all these new products and services kind of converging together. And you know, there's a lot of other industries and sectors, from, you know, manufacturing to industrials to automotive that that will play an increasingly interesting role as this convergence occurs in the marketplace. So it's just going to be fascinating to be a part of.

Nicholas Handcock 52:33

Yeah, and I think piling, piling onto that, Greg, I think it's really exciting that the spotlight is on the energy sector. You know, it's in the headlines in the news. My family and my friends asked me about it and asked me about topics that are related to my work, which probably five years ago they thought was very boring, and now it's getting exciting. I think it's also really exciting when it comes to thinking about the talents, the investment, the innovation that we can attract to the sector. We're already starting to see it startups and things having really creative new solutions coming to the energy sector that maybe used to focus elsewhere. So I think there's just so much innovation and change coming. It is really, really exciting for the future.

Trevor Freeman 53:12

Great. Well, I think that's a pretty phenomenal place to wrap up with, with that little pump of optimism. Nicholas and Greg, I really appreciate your time, and this was a great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights, and appreciate you coming on the show.

Greg Guthridge 53:24

Trevor, thank you very much. Appreciate your time today.

Nicholas Handcock 53:27

Yes, thanks, Trevor.

Trevor Freeman 53:29

Great. Take care, guys. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word as always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

View Details

Most Canadians are eager to combat climate change. But how? One actionable area is reducing emissions from our homes. In episode 141 of thinkenergy, Sarah Grant, founder and co-owner of Goldfinch Energy, shares ways you can reduce your home’s reliance on fossil fuels. Goldfinch Energy is a women-owned, Toronto-based organization offering energy assessments, clean tech roadmaps, and green renovation support services. Listen in to learn about home decarbonization and electrification solutions.

Related links

• Goldfinch Energy: https://www.goldfinchenergy.ca/
• Sarah Grant on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-grant-89ba152b/
• Natural Resources Canada Energy Advisor program: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/professional-opportunities/become-registered-energuide-rating-system-energy-advisor/20566
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

SPEAKERS

Trevor Freeman, Sarah Grant

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroauttawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. And welcome back from the summer. As you know, think energy paused over the summer, and hopefully you got a break over the summer as well, time to rest and be rejuvenated. There were certainly times of that for us here. I was able to get out and do some camping and canoeing with the family, which, if you're not from Canada, if you're if you're not in Ontario, there's some fantastic camping and canoeing spots here, so come and check them out. But it was also a busy summer. Things, some things do slow down, and others just seem to fill in that empty space in the calendar. So, we've been busy and hard at work. One of the things we've been doing is spending some time thinking about what this next season of think energy has in store. There are lots of great topics to explore, lots of interesting and smart people out there to talk to the world of the energy transition and energy in general is not slowing down. In fact, it's picking up steam quite a bit. So, lots to dive into this season. We may take a different approach on some topics, on some episodes. We might try out some new things. So yeah, come along for the ride. So today, for our first episode of the season, we're going to kick things off with something close to home, and you will forgive me for that very intended and poor pun, because we're talking about home decarbonization and electrification. We know that most Canadians want to do something about climate change. The data shows us this, and you can go back and listen to my conversation with David Caletto from abacus data for more information on this. We want to live in a society that isn't producing harmful emissions that are jeopardizing our future, but it often feels like so much of that is out of our control. So when it comes to climate action, what we often look to is those things that are in our control, which, for those fortunate enough to own their own homes, is the emissions that result from where we live and, by extension, for somehow we get around the city, so our vehicles, even that action, however, can be daunting if we don't know where to start and we don't know what our options are, and we're relying on contractors, or tradespeople who tend to take maybe a more traditional, fossil fuel based approach. There are great contractors out there, but sometimes it's hard to find them, so today we're going to explore that a little bit. Now I do want to throw a quick caveat out there to say that this conversation is really through the lens of kind of a single family or semidetached home, and through the lens of those that either own their own home, or at the very least have some decision making. Power for that home. Decarbonizing multi-unit buildings like apartments or condos or decarbonizing for renters, is a whole different but equally important conversation that I do plan on tackling at another time. So my conversation today is with Sarah Grant, who is the co-founder and co-owner of Goldfinch energy. Goldfinch energy is a Toronto, Ontario based, women owned small business that is dedicated to helping Canadians reduce their homes reliance on fossil fuels. They offer energy assessments, clean tech roadmaps and green renovation support services. Sarah has degrees in engineering and computer science. She's held leadership roles in renewable energy and local food systems, and is a certified energy advisor. And is really someone who's just passionate about tackling climate change and passionate about talking about it as well. So, I think you're going to enjoy the conversation today. Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sarah Grant 04:21

Thanks for having me

Trevor Freeman 04:22

so. Full disclosure to our listeners here, Sarah and I have actually known each other for quite a long time. And I was trying to do the math there, I think it's like getting close to 20 years now, and we know each other from a different line of work. We both were in international developments and worked overseas for a while. So, I think my first question is, tell us how you came to be in the home energy business. That's a bit of a shift from international development. And then tell us a little bit about what Goldfinch energy does.

Sarah Grant 04:53

Awesome. It is true. It is a bit of a shift, although I have always been interested in big, big problems that the world is facing, and working in international development, yeah, I guess 20 or so years ago, I could already see the impacts of the climate crisis, working with subsistence farmers, hearing them tell the stories of how they would plant and um, reigns weren't as predictable as they had been before. And so, when it was time for me to come back to Canada live a bit closer to family, it was something that I was always interested in, and felt like it was another global problem that I could start working on more locally, more specifically, sort of how Goldfinch was born was, to some extent, out of the pandemic. So, some goodness came out of that. Early in the spring, I was working in another sort of climate focused endeavor, a nonprofit that it was clear wasn't going to do very well with the pandemic ongoing, and a friend actually approached me and said, hey, I have this idea. She herself had been working in the sort of climate change world and had had a furnace die, and had asked about heat pumps, and was just laughed at. So, she ended up with a oversized, gas guzzling furnace to continue to heat her home and knew she could have done better. So, Goldfinch energy was sort of born out of that idea that we're not alone. Many of us want to do something, and our homes are a large portion of our individual commissions. If you are lucky enough to own a home, that is, and there are small steps, big steps you can take. All of it matters. And so that's Goldfinch. So, we then, early on, decided, in order to help people, it was going to be useful to become energy advisors. So, I took some training. Actually, it's a really interesting program the federal government through Natural Resources Canada administers the, I guess, the industry of being an energy advisor. And so, there are sort of two exams you take. And so, we studied in 2020, and launched Goldfinch energy with the idea that, after doing some market research as well that, you know, what was really going to be helpful was being able to help people sort of break down the complexity of what's going on with their homes, what they can do to address the climate change crisis. And also, you know, with a home, it's also not just about that. It's about maybe making it a bit more comfortable, or maybe there's a planned renovation that someone might want to do to change the layout, what have you. And so, we establish golden energy to help people make their homes better for the planet and for themselves.

Trevor Freeman 07:52

Great. Yeah, it's, I think I hear that a lot from folks, and it's in my own experience of, you know roughly that you want to do the right thing, you know, roughly that, yeah, I want to, you know, reduce carbon, but I don't know how. And the answer I'm going to get from my average contractor is not going to point me in that direction. I'm hoping that we're seeing some change, and folks like you guys are maybe pushing that a little bit, but it's great to know that there's organizations out there that can provide that direct support. So, I mean, what we're talking about today is pretty much home electrification, or, let's say, home decarbonization. And so, let's pull apart what that looks like. And there's probably a few different scenarios of how a homeowner could approach this work. There's the one that you described where your furnace kind of dies in the middle of January, which is my own experience a number of years ago. And you have to make a really quick decision. But let's park that scenario for now. Let's talk about if you have time, if you know you want to do this, and you can start planning now, what where do you start? And, oh, you know, looking through the services that you guys provide, you have the energy assessment, the cleantech roadmap, talk us through some of those tools that you use to help people kind of start their decarbonization journey.

Sarah Grant 09:16

So, this is a great question. The best way to start is just by getting a sense of where your home is now. A lot of the homes that I work in, I'm based in Toronto, are 100 plus years old. So, you know, when they were first built, didn't have any insulation. They leaked like a sieve. They were probably heated with wood or some type of fossil fuel. And you know, different expectations were had and over the over the decades, often homes have had a myriad of homeowners and renovations or no renovations. So, an energy assessment is a way for someone to better understand what's going on with their home right now and our clean tech roadmap, then segues from that and helps goes deeper into okay, I now know where my home is losing heat, where you know how efficient or not it is, what levels of insulation exist in behind the walls and in the attic, and you know how drafty it is. There's a cool tool that we use to measure that, the clean tech roadmap, then puts that assessment and translates that into helps people translate that into a plan that they can then ideally act on. So, this plan includes details like, Okay, what you know if you are going to be renovating the basement, stay and want to finish that space. What are the recommended insulation materials that you should use? And how should you treat water? Because, you know, often basements are a little bit below the water table. So, what does that look like? How can we better air seal that space to make it less drafty as well? And maybe you're going to be touching the heating or the hot water. So, what are the options there? What are some contractor names? So, it's really designed to give people all the tools that hopefully they may need if they have the time to not only understand where their home is at, but what they can do and then even have everything at their fingertips to start to seek out quotes and start to take action on their home in the way that's best suited to them. So, some homeowners are able and fortunate enough to kind of do everything in one big bell swoop of, you know, a big, big renovation, perhaps, or, you know, over a few months’ time, able to kind of get, get everything off the list. A lot of the homeowners that we work with aren't in that sort of circumstances. A lot of homeowners who just bought a house, so the house is new to them, but maybe 100 years old. And so, having that clean tech roadmap in their hands then allows them to sort of say, Okay, well, what? What do we want to do this year and the next year, and I've had people that, you know, we worked with four years ago, have who have come back to me a few years later and said, Okay, well, now we're ready to do this? Can you help us which, which is so great, so it's designed to sort of meet people where they are, where they are, with their goals, with their budget and their lifestyle. Because not everyone can afford to kind of do all the you know the right things all at once.

Trevor Freeman 12:24

Yeah, so, I think like having someone in to one understand what's there, because not everybody knows exactly what's in their house, as you said, and then have that plan. That doesn't mean you have to implement the plan today all at once, but knowing you know when this piece of equipment goes or when I work on this part of the house, here's what I'm going to do, here's the things I need to consider. And having that kind of in your back pocket. Or when you do that work is super helpful. You touched on something else that I want to ask you about, which is, you know, oftentimes when we think about decarbonizing our homes or changing out big pieces of equipment. Of course, we're thinking of, you know, our heating system, our cooling system, our hot water system, but you mentioned a couple other things. So, what are some things to address before getting into those big equipment purchases? You know, changing out your furnace. What should what should you do in advance of that?

Sarah Grant 13:20

I mean, first and foremost, you know, if you have a home and you have issues with water, with mold, those are kind of, you know, structural issues. Those are aspects that tend to, you know, they're top of the list. But, you know, assuming, let's assume, you know, we're talking about homes that kind of don't have those pressing needs. Some of the some of the items that are ideal to address before electrifying are involve making your home better at keeping the heat in. So that's really comes down to just insulate, more insulation where you can, to the extent that you can, and reducing air leakage. So, a lot of people are familiar with insulation. Usually, most contractors these days, if someone's renovating a kitchen, will find a way to add some insulation. Reducing air leakage is still, I would say, not as much on a contractor's radar as it would be ideal. A lot of the green contractors and architects that I work with, it's sort of as important, or even more important, and to us it is as well. So, in the winter, the insulation for your house is kind of like your sweater, and if you don't have any sort of windbreaker, you're going to have a lot of air leakage. So, the air leakage for your home is kind of like adding a windbreaker. Sorry, I started to talk about it like with homeowners, like there are different levels of air leakage. So, level one just involves walking around with a caulking gun and doing what you can to seal up the gaps and the cracks, maybe around the windows. In the window trim, maybe along the baseboards. People often have a good sense of some of the larger sources of air leakage, because they feel drafty, and so that's kind of level one, air leakage. Level two could involve maybe doing a little bit more in the basement, around what's called the rim joist. So, if you look up in your basement and your basement is unfinished where the sort of the ceiling joists meet the walls, those are often a huge source of air leakage. And there's a lot that can often be done to reduce air leakage there. And there are different products. I don't know if we want to get into that today, but I'll just leave it at that for now. And level three is if you are going to be replacing the siding from the outside or from the inside, gutting your house, adding an air barrier, which is a material that serves to reduce the air leakage. Overall, it is like wrapping your house in a big windbreaker. If someone is able to do that, if you're able to say, if you have siding on the outside of your house that you need to be replaced. Adding an air barrier can have the most significant impacts in terms of reducing air leakage. So, you asked, sort of, where should someone start? I think, you know, it does come back to a lot of people I find replace their siding or replace their windows, maybe more for esthetic reasons, or they have reached their end of life. But reducing air leakage, doing what you can if you're replacing your siding, to also add insulation, isn't always on people's minds. So again, back to having that plan. If you have a plan, if you know, okay, when I need to redo my flat roof or redo my siding or redo my windows, I'm going to be thinking about these extra pieces that will ensure that I'm going to take a few more steps to make my house do a better job of keeping the heat in, by adding more insulation, by reducing air leakage. Those are great, great first steps when possible.

Trevor Freeman 16:54

And the added benefit, I think, of that, and this is important for people to know, is there's a huge comfort impact there. I mean this, we're not even really talking yet about energy savings and carbon you will just have a more comfortable home if it's less drafty, if it holds the heat in better, keeps the heat out in the summer, and that is one of the drivers for some of these changes that we're talking about here today. It's not just because you really care about climate change, it's also because you want a more comfortable and efficient home.

Sarah Grant 17:25

100% I think that comfort just like someone having a broken furnace. Well, maybe not exactly, but similar to, I think, is can act as that trigger, as that motivator, to push people. So I do often have people calling and saying, Hey, like, can you come and do a consult? Because we don't often use the third floor of our house. It's just not as comfortable. And so we'll figure out what's going on and help people make a plan to address that. And ideally, you know, I find when I'm able to do that, I'd rather help someone make a better use of existing space than help them plan out an addition. Um, I have sometimes ended up talking people out of an addition, because upon sort of discussing their house real, we've realized, okay, like they don't use their basement because it's unfinished, it's dark, it's damp, it's, you know, it's the scary, cobwebby place. And so we develop a plan that involves adding more sunlight and making it comfortable, making it not so damp and scary, and that helps. They're already heating that space. It's sort of a space that you're already sort of half there. And so energy wise, you're making an improvement, and have avoided making your house bigger, which is maybe required, but it can be avoided, is better too.

Trevor Freeman 18:49

Okay, so I want to dive into the things that probably people are most familiar with when we talk about reducing our own fossil fuel consumption in a home. And so these are your big users, like how you heat your space, how you heat your water, and for some people cooking. So especially those first do space heating and water heating. The majority of Canadians at least use some kind of fossil fuel to heat their homes, especially here in Ontario. So that's typically natural gas cooking is a little bit more of a mixed bag, but there's a lot of gas cooking out there. So maybe talk us through what would be the sort of low to no carbon option for each of those three things.

Sarah Grant 19:31

Great, okay, going from large to small. So the largest source of emissions in a home is your space heating. Typically, the emissions are about the same as driving a sort of a mid to large sized car. You know, most people drive, on average, 15,000 kilometers a year. The emissions are going to be about the same so that that's going to be the biggest one, if someone is looking and they're a little bit overwhelmed, and the best alternative is a. Heat pump. So these are they come in many different forms, but the most common, and I think the most common scenario for most homes is if you have forced air. So ductwork and these kind of heat pumps can extract heat from the air outside. A lot of them can work up to minus 30 degrees. So even up to minus 30, they're able to grab latent heat in the air and pump it inside, and then it gets pumped around your house. The cool thing about them is that they can also work in reverse. So, in the summer, they act just like an air conditioner. In fact, the technology is very much the same as an air conditioner, just that they work in reverse in the winter too. So they can also cool. So these are called Air source heat pumps. And, yeah, someone has forced air and they have a gas furnace or an air conditioner or both that need to be replaced. An air source heat pump is, is a great option. A lot of the folks that we've worked with that have switched, you know, you talked about comfort, sort of some of the side benefits, I would say, of a heat pump is they're typically quieter if designed and sized and installed properly, they're they they're quieter both the outside and the inside aspects of a heat pump, and the air from the vents is a lot more comfortable. So we got a heat pump about three years ago, and the first winter we had it installed, my father in law came over for dinner one night and just stood in front of the vent, kind of like a cat basking in that warmth, and said, Oh my gosh, this is way more comfortable. It's not that dry, scorched air that a lot of people associate with poor stairs. So that's, that's an air source heat pump. You can also, there are also ground source heat pumps, but for a lot of you know urban areas, these ground source heat pumps involve drilling into the ground, either horizontally or vertically, to extract heat from the ground. They I have worked with a few homes in sort of more rural areas where it does make sense, but the costs associated with them are really high, and often there's not enough space in urban areas, so they're not quite as common. And I'd say sort of, just to kind of close the conversation on we'll conclude it on the on the heating side of things, if you do have another source of like heat, maybe it's, maybe it's cast iron radiators or baseboards. There are also heat pumps that can help you as well. So with cast iron radiators, they're what's called air to water heat pumps. So they'll the outdoor unit will look similar to someone who has forced air. So it's an it's going to extract heat from the outside air, and it'll transfer it to water. Now that can then go through your cast iron radiators, or maybe have insular heating or what have you. They're not as common, but the technology has existed for a long time in Europe, and there are more products and contractors that I'm working with that are becoming more comfortable with installing this technology. And last there are what's called ductless heat pumps. So if you don't have ductwork or cast iron radiators, or maybe have baseboards, or maybe there's a space where the ductwork just isn't sufficient, these ductless heat pumps can be installed. They can either go on the wall, on sort of these big white boxes. If you've been to Asia, you're probably familiar with them because they exist there, either in the form of heat pumps or air conditioners, or you can have little floor mounted ones as well, which look a little bit slicker, I suppose, but they do cost a little bit more. So that's heating for hot water. There are kind of two main options if you want to get off of fossil fuels. Usually that's yeah, for most of us, that's with the gas, but there could be propane as well. So, if you want to get off of fossil fuels with your hot water, the heat pump technology exists with hot water as well. Heat Pump hot water tanks is what they're called. Are actually, confusingly, sometimes hybrid tanks, because they use heat pump technology, but then also have an electric coil. So, they operate, they can operate like a simple electric tank, if, um, if needed. And they come with a little like Wi Fi app too. So they are, like, four times more efficient than a gas hot water tank. So you will save a little bit by switching to them. But the way they work is they'll extract heat from your basement, actually, so from your basement air and transfer that to the water. So, I would say about half the people I work with end up going with them because they have a space where it makes sense. Maybe their basement is large and they can put it kind of in the corner and a big mechanical room or a workshop where they're not going to go into it. So, if it, if that heat pump reduces the temperature by two degrees or so, it's not a big deal. But for me, my home is pretty tiny, and we're using every nook and cranny with five of us in it, so we opted for an electric tank and, um. And then paired it with a timer so that it only reheats the water overnight when electricity, if you're on time of use, is cheapest, and that's also when our Ontario grid is using the non-fossil fuel related forms of power production, like nuclear and water. So that can work if you're really lucky and you have an open an unfinished basement and a good space to install what's called a drain water heat recovery system. These are super cool, very simple technologies that can transfer the heat from any water that you've already used, like from your shower, and transfer it to the fresh water before that fresh water then goes into whatever heating mechanism you have. So, they can work with anything, even if you have a gas hot water tank, a drain water heat recovery system is a good way to kind of preheat the water by extracting the heat from the hot water you've already used a lot of hospitals I know in Toronto are starting to use these kinds of systems as well. So two main options, electric tank, you pump out water tank, and then those drain water heat recovery systems as well, and hot water. So, you know, I said you're heating, heating your house. It's usually about kind of 8080, or so percent of a home emission, home emissions hot water is, is around 15 to 20% just to give an idea of sort of how it fits into the relative picture. But ultimately, I wouldn't say, you know, do one over the other, unless you know, if you have, if you have a hot water tank that's broken, replace that with a with an electric tank, or heat pump hot water tank. Don't, don't just say, Oh, it's only 20% I shouldn't do that one. It's still worth it. Every little appliance that you can get off of fossil fuels is one step closer to then being able to disconnect from the gas utility or what have you, and sets you up for, ultimately, like a little bit of savings too, because you're no longer paying for that delivery fee to have access to that fossil fuel in your house. So cooking, cooking is cooking is probably, to be honest, like, the most fun of all of these just because, you know, it impacts your daily life. If like, hot water and heating and cooling are one of those things where you don't, like, I don't think about my heat pump unless it's not working properly, which we haven't had an issue with. But, you know, it just sits there and it does, it does its thing, and I'm happy to have it off of fossil fuels. But for cooking, switching, for us, switching. We switched from a gas stove to an induction stove about a year ago, and it's amazing, like I've got little kids, and I love that. I feel comfortable teaching them how to cook on this stove, just because of the way the induction stove works, the whole cooktop doesn't get heated up in the same way you accidentally leave, like a rag or a paper towel on the stove, not going to catch on fire. We did have a few of those incidences with our former gas stove. And, like, it's really quick. I know that there's a lot of stats and data about how quick it can heat up water, but it's one of those things that you don't believe it until you sort of experience it yourself. So yeah, so we got, we got a nice flick induction stove, because our gas stove was kind of reaching its end of life, and we were starting to smell some of the gas as well, even when it wasn't on, which I know is an issue, that's, that's, you know, something that's, that's hostages for our help. And, you know, there's a lot of research and evidence out there related to, like respiratory issues and gas related cooking. So, if you do have a gas stove and you aren't able to afford to switch now, make sure you're using your exhaust, like your range hood, properly, not just when you're using the top, but when you're cooking in the oven too. But yeah, if you're able to switch it out, then you can just break a little easier knowing that you're not, you're not using some sort of like fossil fuel to cook, cook with, and so your house is cleaner, and you're making the planet a bit cleaner as well.

Trevor Freeman 29:11

That's definitely one of those other benefits of going down that path. And everyone we're in a similar vein, I cook with electric resistance now, but our stove is near its end of life, and I've excited to get that induction stove, because everybody I talked to just sort of says it's one of the coolest things that you can add to your kitchen. So, I'm excited about. One other big source of fossil fuels in our daily lives that people will be familiar with, obviously, is, is our cars, how we drive, how we get around. Most folks still have an internal combustion engine car, and we know that for people that are going to switch to an EV if they can, the preferred choice to charge is at home. People want to be able to charge their vehicles at home. So what are some considerations when it comes to owning an EV at your house, as you're trying to decarbonize

Sarah Grant 30:06

Awesome. I'm glad you asked this question, because I was trying to figure out a way how to bring up electric like capacity in a home, knowing that you know, if you do electrify every appliance in if someone does electrify every appliance in their house, they may not need to upgrade. A lot of us are on 100 amp service, and I was able to, you know, install an induction stove switch from gas to induction switch from a gas hot water tank to an electric tank with that drain water heat recovery system and a timer switch from a gas furnace to a heat pump. And we had 100 amps, and we're fine with that. We didn't have any breakers trip or anything. And I've worked with a lot of homes where that's the case. I should just say, even before someone's going to switch to an EV though, the kind of the two main aspects, two main elements that may require an upgrade, would be an EV charger and, um, electric backup, resistance heating. So with a heat pump, they are amazing for so many reasons I've kind of already talked about they're more comfortable, they're quieter. You know, climate fighting machines that work on electricity, but they're not like electric baseboard heaters. They're using one unit of electricity to generate about three units of heat. So they're great. Their capacity isn't as high as as a gas furnace or our propane furnace may be. So if that's the case, and if your house, you haven't been able to do all the things you can to insulate and to reduce heat loss, then the largest heat pump may need to come with an electric resistance heating and these can, if they're working, can draw a lot of electricity. So the way this works with a heat pump is, on a cold day, the heat pump is going to always operate. And then if your thermostat notices, hey, my house isn't able to stay as comfortable. It's not getting to whatever, you know, 22 degrees, it'll then ask for the electric resistance oil to turn on and give a boost to the heat pump. So, um, you're not going to generate like, your bills aren't going to be excessive, like they would be if someone's heating with just electric heating, but larger electric resistance heating requires a pretty big breaker, like a 40-amp sort of thing. So, if, if that's the case, then that may be something that triggers you into the okay, maybe I need to upgrade to 200 amps EV chargers as well. They come in many different forms. We actually I'm just at my in laws cottage, and my father-in-law, very generously, installed an EV charger here, because we were lucky enough to purchase an EV a few months ago and so he put in one that's also on a 40-amp breaker, but you can get ones and put it on a 30 amp breaker, you put on a 50 amp breaker. So with upgrading and with switching everything to electric, I find that's an area that I think things still are evolving and changing. You know, I typically, I was previously doing sort of a what a lot of electricians or HVAC contractors would do with just sort of adding up all the all the aspects on the panel and sort of saying, Okay, well, if you're running your stove and your heat pump and your hot water all at once, here's sort of based on those breakers, here's how much electricity you're going to draw. And if that number is greater than 100 Okay, someone should upgrade which, which tends to be a little bit conservative. So, what we are now doing is, if you have the ability to access your electricity bills and look at sort of your hour-by-hour consumption, there is a way that homeowners can actually figure out, kind of like, what's my peak, what's my worst? Like, draw, I'm probably not using the right terms here, but, um, but. Or you could actually simulate that and just, you know, on a, on a like a really hot day, turn on make sure your air conditioner is running. Turn on. You all your, you know, your dryer, your electric stove, whatever kind of make it the worst-case scenario that you could reasonably see happening in your house and then go on and log into your utility data. And there's a way that you can look at like hour by hour, and it'll tell you your draw and based on that, if you look up online, there's a way to sort of translate that kilowatt draw into amps. And what I've found when I translate people's draw into amps is that like someone who's on 100-amp panel, who's got, you know, their electric dryer and their air conditioner and their induction stove running typically draws between 20 and 40 amps. That's way below the 100 amp. Environment and so upgrading, this is a long winded way of saying upgrading everything you know, from fossil fuels, switching your car, getting an EV charger, may or may not require you to upgrade to 200 amps, but if you have the ability to sort of do a little bit of research online, try and figure out what your draw is, so that, because you may not actually need to upgrade alive, find a lot of contractors are somewhat conservative and are telling people to upgrade before they necessarily need to. And the cost to upgrade can be around five or so $1,000 so at least what I've seen in Toronto and so that kind of cost can actually turn people off.

Trevor Freeman 35:42

Yeah. So, I that's a great point to bring up Sarah. And I think we, we see that, of course, with our customers a lot as well. And I think it's important to know that the quick and easy way to determine if you need a panel upgrade is, as you said, to add up the numbers on the breakers, and if you if you're bumping over 100 yep, that's a panel upgrade. But that's not necessarily the most accurate way, because it's rare that we use the full amount of each breaker. And so looking at your utility data, or having your electrician, your contractor, help you, look at your utility data, can tell you that you maybe don't need a panel upgrade, that you can operate all this equipment that we're talking about on your 100 amp panel, and most utilities in Ontario, at least, I know for you in Toronto, and definitely for any of our listeners in our service territory in Ottawa, you can access Your hourly utility data online through whatever portal you have with your utility. So definitely go and check that out

Sarah Grant 36:47

if you end up realizing that your kind of on the cusp and you may need to upgrade. One of the other things that you could do instead is install a smart switch. So, there are products of their levatron is one that I know of. There are even smart panels that give you at your fingertips through a phone app, the ability to sort of say, oh, okay, I want to charge my car, so maybe I'm going to, sort of not let people draw electricity from other aspects in my home, or vice versa, you can kind of turn off and on your car charger. You can even run your whole panel as well. So, sort of the smart switching aspect is a way that, if you're kind of on that cusp, can enable you to avoid a service upgrade and also get some really cool data at your fingertips as well about your electricity consumption.

Trevor Freeman 37:42

Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up, and I've seen those as well. They're super exciting. And, you know, as a kind of a data nerd, it'd be awesome to have that granular data. And what's every circuit in my house doing? But I think at its most basic, it's basically saying, yeah, like, you can't run your electric clothes dryer and charge your EV at the same time. So it kind of forces one or the other, you know, and whatever slot in whatever piece of equipment you want there, which keeps you under that, that threshold for your panel, no matter what, even if all your things add up to more, you're still going to stay under because it won't let them go on the same time. So that's a great piece of technology. So, I want to quickly ask you about electricity generation and storage, where probably, if anybody kind of wanders around, you're seeing more and more solar panels on roofs. We're hearing more about home battery storage, although that hasn't quite taken off widespread yet, but it is out there. So how would something like that factor into a homeowner's plan?

Sarah Grant 38:42

Yeah, I think that typically, it's kind of one of the later aspects for a homeowner plan. So you know, if you were listening and you're someone who is interested in doing what you can to reduce your carbon footprint, you know the largest things you can do, the single largest thing is to install a heat pump. Get your heating off of off of fossil fuels, and install a heat pump. And, you know, do what you can to reduce your heat loss by adding insulation, making it less leaky. Solar panels are a fantastic complement to that, and I find they, you know, we include them in a clean tech roadmap, and we show people the impact. And some people do choose to do them first just because they're excited, and it is, to some extent, an investment in reduction of your energy bills. So, you know, the sooner you can get the panels on your roof, the sooner you can start to save and no longer spend, you know, and to some extent, also solar panels, at least in Ontario, they're producing their peak amount of electricity at a time when we're using our electricity grid in Ontario, mostly as nuclear and water. But you. Uh, you know, during peak times, we do have some gas power plants that their benefit is to kind of come on quickly and produce electricity really quickly, so that we can make up that that time, say, five o'clock on a really hot August day when everyone comes home from work or six o'clock and turns on their air conditioner and, and, and, but at that same time, solar panels are in peak production. So, you know, I know, I'm sure you've had other podcasts to discuss, sort of our electricity grid, so we don't need to get into more details. But you know, it is something that each can do to offset and reduce that sort of gas peak your plant consumption by putting panels on the roof. And I think a great aspirational goal for everyone would be to be net zero. Just as you know, I know, City of Toronto has a net zero goal as a city overall, so getting each home to net zero would certainly one way to achieve that goal. So there's some savings involved for us. We put panels on, like four years ago, and based on how much we're saving per year and how much we spent, we'll have saved as much in electricity as we spent in 11 to make up the cost in 11 years’ time, the cost the return on investment, isn't as great now because we were able to leverage a federal rebate that is no longer available, but For so that'll probably extend the return on investment. For many people to sort of 15 to 20 years’ time frame. The reduction in use of our gas peaker plants is another, another benefit and, um, no, I'd say the other like, sort of the pleasant side, again, comfort benefit for us, although I wouldn't say invest in it only for this. It's kept our house more comfortable in the summer. So these solar panels are absorbing the sun's energy, the sun's heat. So it's now no longer the sun's no longer cooking our roof as it used to. And although we did add insulation there, the panels are way more effective at just absorbing that energy. And so our second floor is able to stay a lot more comfortable as well. As far as sort of storage goes, You're right. I'm starting to see more and more batteries. But you know, a few years ago, I hadn't seen really any, any in people's homes. The costs, I know, and sort of the thread tape involved in getting them approved was still quite high. But they are a fantastic option if you do have solar panels, or if you're someone who's concerned about making your house more resilient in the event of a power outage, they're a good option to have, obviously, better than, better than a gas generator, which would be the alternative if you want some form of energy on hand in case the grid goes down. But yeah, this is sort of, I would say, if you're thinking about your house and where solar panels and storage could fit in, I would probably put them sort of later on the list. Again, decarbonize by getting, like, electrify everything in your house as much as possible. Do what you can to insulate and air seal, and if you're lucky enough to have a little bit left over solar and storage are great as well.

Trevor Freeman 43:04

Yeah, it's that's a great way to put it. I certainly look at them as supporting tools to someone looking to decarbonize and electrify their house. To your point, you don't get a lot of carbon reduction just from solar, partly, especially in Ontario, because our grid is primarily clean, primarily carbon free, but during those peak solar production hours, that's also typically our peak emission hours from the grid in Ontario. But what solar panels and storage, to a lesser extent, can do is give you some predictability in your energy costs. So, you're kind of locking some portion of your energy cost in the day you put those panels on, and if electricity prices increase, you've got that predictability based on what you put on your roof. So just getting close to the end of our conversation here today, Sarah, I want to ask you two more questions. One, I alluded to this at the beginning, and as did you there are those scenarios where you haven't done any planning or prep. You know that maybe decarbonizing or moving to a more modern piece of equipment is something you want to do, but you haven't done any work on that, and it's January, and all of a sudden there's no heat coming from your furnace. And you get someone to look at it and they say, yep, you need a new one. What can you do? In that sense, are there contractors out there who can turn around and put a heat pump in as quick as they can put a furnace in? Or are we not there yet? What's kind of on the horizon for folks in that situation?

Sarah Grant 44:36

Yeah, there are a lot of contractors out there who can put in a heat pump as quickly as they would a gas furnace. The rebate program that the federal government offered, which is unfortunately no longer available, did a lot of work to, I would say, get homeowners asking contractors about heat pumps, and that then got a lot of contractors on board with installing key pumps. And. And I'm finding actually, right now, we're in a good space, because a lot of manufacturers brought in a lot of stock, and so there's actually an excess of a supply of heat pumps, so the costs have come down a little bit, which is nice in the absence of rebate. So, yeah, the installation itself is, you know, if you're replacing a gas furnace with heat pump, it's no more or less complicated, to be honest, typically should take about, you know, just into two days, or maybe just under, like, you know, one, a full day, and sort of, and then some. And I would say the sort of the biggest, the biggest lost opportunity is, is, you may not, you may not have a contractor that feels comfortable getting you all the way off of gas. So I find a lot of contractors are more comfortable with recommending what's called a hybrid system, where you would have a heat pump and a gas furnace installed in your house. And in this case, the heat pump will always get the first opportunity to provide heating in a house, but then the gas furnace will kick on. Um, at some point. And I find in this case, like the heat pumps are, tend to be a little bit undersized, and so they may not, it's a bit of a lost opportunity. They may not be able to heat as long into the winter as if it was sort of the right size for your home. And you know, instead of the heat pump going all the way, which is the case if you get all the way off of fossil fuels, it'll switch over to the gas furnace as needed. So just like a hybrid car, you know, with a battery and gas in the car itself, this sort of system is still a great step in the right direction, though. So certainly, if you're stuck in the middle of a winter night or a hot summer's day and you've got no cooling or no heating call around, and you know, if you don't like the first answer, if you have still, there are still some contractors that are misinformed about heat pumps and will sort of say, Oh, well, they don't work greater. But I would say, for the most part, in the last four years, things have changed dramatically, and contractors are now on board, and because they have an excess of supplier are eager to, eager to sell them and install them.

Trevor Freeman 47:05

That's great to hear. And I think the important thing there is you're not going to know unless you ask, and if you don't get that answer the first time, you know, take another couple calls. Try call around, because there are, there are contractors out there who can support you in that. And kind of like you said, this is, you know, when you're replacing your major heating equipment in your house, that's your once in a kind of 10-to-15-year period, if not longer, to get that right. And if you lock yourself into something you didn't really want, then it's hard to hard to change course a few years down the road. So, take the time if you can, to ask those questions. Okay, last question for you here, before we wrap up, I want to zoom out a little bit and talk about just the overall process of retrofitting more homes. You know, you made the point earlier. There's a lot of homes out there. If we can start moving all these homes off fossil fuels, it's going to go a long way towards hitting our climate goals. How do we speed that process up? What programs or regulations or policies have you seen, or would you like to see that and kind of encourage these transitions?

Sarah Grant 48:13

Oh, I love that question. Yeah. I mean, if I had a magic wand and could change things, I would definitely like to see more, more incentives, more zero interest financing out there. You know, the homes that I've seen that have been able to get all the way off of fossil fuels, install solar panels, do what they can to insulate were able to access in the city of Toronto anyway, a zero-interest loan that went up $225,000 came with its own $10,000 incentive. They also accessed what is no longer available, the up to $10,000 incentives. So up to 20k of incentives, zero interest loan, those like of the homes that we work with, they're about 20% that have achieved that kind of like the got to sort of net zero, significant energy reduction, and we're able to, you know, access that level of financing and rebates. Those programs are not available anymore. Or at least, the City of Toronto offers their low interest loan. It's no longer zero interest, and doesn't have the incentives anymore. So that typically showed me that, you know, it's possible, but we do need more financing and support in place for people. You know, there's a there are a lot of great models in Europe and in Germany, the energy sprawl model exists where basically big like panels can be installed on the outside of people's homes that have insulation, that have an air barrier, that kind of come with the Windows already well installed those sort of options as well. If, if, if feasible, can also do a lot to accelerate our rate of decarbonizing or electrifying in in Canada. In that regard, there's a lot happening in the sort of the low income Social. Housing space. And I feel very honored or privileged to be just a small actor in that space and collaborating with many fantastic actors that are not only sort of retrofitting a large number of homes, at least in Toronto, but also treating it as an opportunity to sort of help think about how we can get to scale and how we can accelerate this and so they are changing contractors mindsets and impacting the availability of stock and supply. So, yeah, we need, we need, we do need more policies and support and levers in place, and then, as well, the sort of the contractor industry, there's a lot of training and support that's also needed. So it's a big, it's a big, exciting problem with lots of opportunity, but, yeah, lots of work to happen in order for us to achieve our net zero goals.

Trevor Freeman 50:50

Yeah, I think we have seen that there's a role for funding and financing to help lower that initial barrier of some of this, you know, still fairly nascent technology, although it's becoming more commonplace, but there is a role for those programs, and when they are in place, you know, your experience has shown they work, you're seeing more projects go through when there are funding and financing programs compared to when there aren't. So it's good to know that the programs work, and we just need to see more of them, so that's great. Okay, Sarah, we always wrap up our interviews with kind of a series of questions that I pose to all guests. So as long as you're ready, I'll dive right in. What is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

Sarah Grant 51:35

That is a great question. That's fun. I'm an avid reader, so it's hard to it's hard to answer this, to be honest, one book that comes to mind that I think everyone should read is called Ishmael. It's a book about a talking gorilla, and it it definitely changed the trajectory of my life. I read it when I was about 20 years old, I think, and in, you know, studying to become an electrical engineer, thinking about my next steps. I was in my last year of university, so maybe I was a bit older, but, yeah, it's a fantastic book that has, I think, still stood the test of time. I come back to it every few years and reread it.

Trevor Freeman 52:18

Awesome. I could be wrong here, my memory is hazy, but that rings a bell. I feel like maybe many, many years ago, you told me about that book. It's possible. I think we, for those of you who don't know this international development thing, Sarah and I did. A lot of us went through that path of being an engineering school and deciding there's got to be something more out there, and I want to have an impact in a different way. And that took a lot of us down to different courses in our lives. But if someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Sarah Grant 52:54

Okay, I hope that they're going to offset the emissions, if they're offering or I will offset the emissions, where would I go? I mean, I've always wanted to go to so assuming it's a carbon neutral flight, I've always wanted to go to New Zealand, and I used to play rugby. So I would definitely go catch a few rugby games and watch the All Blacks do their traditional Māori dance and hike the hills and the mountains and just sort of see the, see the landscape in New Zealand.

Trevor Freeman 53:29

Who is someone that you admire?

Sarah Grant 53:32

Okay, so, I mean, this is going to get real, really quick, so I would say, you know, I this is and a bit cheesy, but I'm going to say my kids, I've got three, and they're six, eight and 10, they're all very aware of their role in the world. They go to an alternative school, so perhaps that's part of it, but I just think perhaps it's also just being a kid of this age. And they are the reason we bought an electric car sooner than we could afford, because they started crying when we would go in the gas car, and they were concerned about the emissions. And so, I admire my kids. I admire their awareness and their ability to speak up when, when, when something happens. A few months ago, my partner came out to all of us as a trans person, and this is where I said it was going to get real, pretty quick, because my kids have taken it so well, like, they've taken it in stride. They've My daughter has embraced it. She's like, Oh my God. Now I have two moms I can, like, I'm not the mom that's going to take her to get pedicures, but she now has a mom that can take her to get pedicures. So, it's, I guess what I'm saying is, there was their awareness. and their resilience is astounding.

Trevor Freeman 55:03

Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing both of those things, and I echo that and seeing the way that my kids and kids you know that are aware of this stuff really find ways to identify their role in this and find ways to sort of advocate, even without knowing all the big picture and knowing all the nuance to it. And maybe that's even better, that they're just going based on kind of hard and what they know. So that's fantastic. Thanks for sharing that. Our final question here, before we wrap is, what is something about the energy sector or the work that you do, or something that you see coming in the near future that you're really excited about.

Sarah Grant 55:48

So there's so much to be excited for. So, um, one thing that is that is giving me a lot of excitement is, is the low income, the social housing work that I'm involved in because, because of the potential to help accelerate things, because we're all working in a very different way, I think traditionally, you know, and in any space, there's a lot of competition, but all of us who are working, whether It's I'm working with some architects, with some contractors, the owners, their land trust organizations, of these buildings, everyone is operating with the idea that, you know, we should be collaborating. And so there's a lot of knowledge sharing, a lot of investing in each other's awareness and connections. And, you know, it's net it's net positive. It's resulting in a lot more than if we were kind of just, like, holding our cards close and being like, Oh, you hired me to do this, and I don't want to tell you how I did it, because then maybe you're not going to hire me next time I'm happy, if I get worked out of a job to some extent. And what it means for gold trench energy is that we need to kind of keep adapting. Like, four years ago, the conversations I was having with homeowners are very different from the conversations now, and that's amazing, because four years ago, people didn't, lot of people didn't know about heat pumps, and I know that's still the case, but a lot of people that were hiring us didn't know, and now, four years later, they do, and so that evolving knowledge and enhancing Understanding and the fact that there are people out there who are working in a collaborative manner, I think that's going to get us a lot farther, faster, and honestly, it's just way more fun to collaborate with people.

Trevor Freeman 57:32

Yeah, totally. I echo that. I've said it on this podcast before. That one thing I've noticed having been kind of in this space now for close to 15 years in the sort of energy building sector, it feels like things are moving faster and more widespread. There are more people that are aware of the need to decarbonize. There are more people working on that. There are more people working on it in different ways, which is really exciting to see. So that's something definitely that I'm also quite excited about. So Sarah, it's been great chatting today. Thanks so much for sharing your experience and telling us a little bit more about what you do. And yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to chat.

Sarah Grant 58:15

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Trevor Freeman 58:17

Thanks, Sarah, thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroauttawa.com

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Summer rewind: If electrification is the future of energy, the grid must become more efficient and more reliable across Canada. Jenna Gillis, Manager of Distribution System Integration at Hydro Ottawa, joins thinkenergy to discuss the process. Listen to episode 136, as she shares how Ottawa’s electricity grid is being updated with an Advanced Distribution Management System (ADMS) and what this means for you, your family, and residents throughout the region.

Related links

● EV Everywhere Pilot Project: https://hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy/save-energy-homes/ev-everywhere

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman

Hey everyone. Well, it's officially summer, and the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next two months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry, though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair, Dan Sagan, as well as a couple of mine from the past few months, and you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well. Wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer, and we'll be back with new content in September, and until then, happy listening.

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, I think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone, welcome back. I'm pretty excited about today's topic, because we're going to be tackling something a little bit technical. And that's always fun. And today is going to be the first of what might end up being a few different episodes looking at this term called grid modernization. So today, we're going to do just a high-level overview. And then over the next few months, there'll be a couple of different episodes that will dive deeper into some of the specific aspects of grid modernization. So that term grid modernization can be a little bit daunting, but that's okay. Our goal here is to pull apart these topics to better understand what they are and how they impact all of us, you know, from those of us working in the energy sector, all the way to the end users of our product, if you will, our electricity customers. So let's start by a bit of a primer. And I think it'll be helpful to start by talking about what the grid is. So the electrical power grid has been called the world's largest machine, and the greatest engineering achievement of the 20th century. And for good reason, thinking of it as a machine is a great metaphor, because just like a car, or a sewing machine or a snow blower, there are a lot of parts. And if any one of those parts breaks or isn't working as it's supposed to be, that will impact the overall function of the machine. And the same is true for the grid. And the parts we're talking about here are the holes, the conductors or wires, the transformers, the switches, as well as the many different sensors and meters and communication devices that help the humans in the mix, monitor and control things. The difference though, is that you know, even for a complex machine, like a car, there are hundreds or maybe even a couple 1000 parts. But the electricity grid, even if we just look at let's say hydro Ottawa as territory, there are hundreds of 1000s of parts. And if we scale that up to Ontario's grid, we're talking about millions and millions of individual parts all working together, so that when you turn your lights on at home, electricity that was generated hundreds or 1000s of kilometers away, flows into your device and makes it work. That's pretty impressive. And if any one of those millions of parts breaks, there's an impact somewhere on the grid. If multiple things break, or if there's something really critical that isn't working. That's a major problem. And we've seen these major problems. We've seen large scale outages. And you know, we tend to focus on Ontario's grid on this show, because that's what we call home. But our grid is connected to our neighboring grids, who are connected to their neighbors to form really an interconnected North American grid across Canada and the United States. It really is a modern engineering marvel. And, you know, we didn't just get here by chance. This was kind of designed, you know, back at the early days of the 20th century in the early 1900s. Electrical pioneers met for the first time in what is now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss what it would look like to wire Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Our predecessor company, the Ottawa hydroelectric commission, connected to that provincial grid in 1916. So, what we know as the Ottawa grid and our service territory is over 100 years old today. Before that, across Ontario, reliable and continuous power in the region was kind of uncommon, and really dependent on whether someone in the area like a major business or a wealthy individual had invested in a localized electricity grid for their own needs. An interconnected provincial grid was designed and implemented with a goal of making electricity available to all Ontarians regardless of where they lived. And that kind of evolution of the grid in Ontario is similar to how it worked in other parts of North America and indeed the world. That's kind of how grids came about in the last century. Ontario's electricity grid, however, like all grids around the world, was really designed as a one-way street. So, the idea was to generate and then transmit, and then deliver that electricity to customers in that order. Back then, those pioneers really couldn't have imagined an electricity grid that would need to support two-way interactive things like small scale distributed renewable energy, you know, solar panels on roofs or electric vehicles, or energy storage, and a whole host of other things that, you know, want to do more than just draw power from the grid. As we've talked about the ongoing energy transition, and electrification, which is being driven by the pressures of climate change, is really driving a societal shift to bring the electricity system into the 21st century, and to make sure it's powered with clean, renewable electricity. So, our grid is starting to undergo this major transformation. And we won't be able to do that effectively or affordably by just using the same strategies and technologies and the same pace that we've been doing it at over the last 100 plus years. We need to take it to the next level; we need to rethink what we're doing to upgrade the grid and how we're doing it. And that's really what grid modernization is, it's not saying we don't have a modern grid, it's realizing that the grid of 10 years from now needs to be different in a much bigger way than it's different from how it was 10 years ago, that pace of change needs to happen quicker. And we need to bring on new functionality. It's not just you know, incremental change anymore. To help us make some sense of this. I'm really happy to have Jenna Gillis to chat with today. Jenna is the manager of distribution system integration at hydro Ottawa and is leading this major project that we're calling at a high-level grid modernization, or more specifically, our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. Jenna has been with hydro Ottawa for 16 years and has held a number of different roles on the operations and systems side of our business and really knows how our grid operates, how it's been operating, how the humans in the mix control things. And what's necessary to get us to that next stage that we've been talking about. Jenna, welcome to the show.

Jenna Gillis 07:04

Great. Thanks, Trevor. excited to talk to about this today.

Trevor Freeman 07:07

Yeah, I'm excited to. So let's start at kind of a high level here and help our listeners understand how we currently operate our grid today. So paint the picture for those of us who don't kind of get to see what happens behind the scenes. How do we control things today?

Jenna Gillis 07:23

Yeah, for sure. So what people might not realize that we actually have people sitting in a control room centralized control room that looks at our system 24/7 365. So we've got people monitoring the system all the time. And they look at the grid state, and they help direct field activities. They look at triaging outages as they become aware of them. And right now, we've got visibility to our control room to all of our substations, so all of our, you know, high level devices, but only down to about 8% of the feeders and not actually all the way out to our customer level. So what does that mean? That means that we still rely on customers calling us or reporting online when they experience an outage. And all of that information does make its way back into our control room operators. And it goes into a system we call the outage management system, which helps us track and identify where we might be seeing issues out on the grid. So the operators then use that information to help make decisions in terms of controlling the grid where they need to open up closed devices where they need to send field crews to restore power. So on top of that, most of these activities are done by field crews. So the system operators are in direct contact with our crews out in the field and providing direction on where to go, what devices to you know, have them physically open or close in the field. And we've got about 10% of our system right now that has remote capabilities. So that means that the operators can choose to open or close those devices, basically at a click of a button back in the office sitting at a computer. So most of what we do today really is human based and does take an expert control operator to be monitoring the systems and making the decisions.

Trevor Freeman 09:08

Yeah, so we've got this like really complex system. It's, you know, state of the art system, if you will, that requires, like you say experts to keep track of what's happening to identify problems and make decisions based on the information they're getting. I just want to pick apart a few things you said there. So when we're talking about our substations, just for our listeners, those are, you know, spots in our grid where we take higher voltage and step it down via transformers to a lower voltage, and then send that out on wires. That's what we call our feeders to our end customers. We know what's happening at that substation level, we can see whether the power is flowing or not whether switches are open or not. But once it gets past that we lose some of that visibility. That's kind of what I'm hearing from you

Jenna Gillis 09:57

Yeah, exactly. And so that's why I'm saying like we still rely on those notifications from our customers to let us know where they're seeing the problems. And, you know, it comes into a system that, that we can look at in conjunction with that visibility that we have on the substations to help us understand what's going on.

Trevor Freeman 10:12

Right. So obviously, it was such a, you know, an ordered and complex system, we're constantly in proving and renewing and upgrading. That's not new. That's not something that we're just starting. But as I've kind of hinted at in the opening there, we do need to change how we do things. So before we look into where we're going, how do we renew and upgrade today, what's our current process.

Jenna Gillis 10:36

So we do have a robust asset management framework. So that's basically a program that tells us and we look at all of our asset information. And that's whether that's poles, wires, transformers, switches, breakers, basically anything we have out on the distribution system, and we look at and prioritize where we need to invest and where we need to renew, replace, install, upgrade, all of that kind of stuff. So basically, as we do that, right now, we go through, and we'll incorporate new technologies, like these remote control switches, like these sensors to bring information back into the control room to help us continue to evolve, meet our customer or system needs. So this, this process has worked really well in the past in terms of keeping pace with technology and the requirements of the grid and our customers. But right now, we're seeing that it's we're falling behind, it's too slow to parallel installation of these new technological devices, with these asset renewals or installation. So I mean, if you think about it, you know, a pull out with wires on it can last over 50 years, we can't wait until we're replacing that 50 years from now to go in and add these new technological advancements. So what that means is now we're looking at a hybrid ap proach. So of course, we're going to continue to parallel activities where it makes sense with these asset renewals and upgrades and replacements. But we also need to strategically start placing these devices in areas that we're going to gain benefit from, and I'm talking about benefit from a control room operator perspective, benefit from a safety or field crew perspective, but also where we can provide value to our customers in terms of, you know, expediting restoration efforts, or, you know, providing more flexibility into the system to allow more customer connections, whether that be, you know, new residential developments, or whether that's, you know, the next solar panel or battery or something like that.

Trevor Freeman 12:25

Yeah, waiting for anybody who's familiar with kind of technological adoption curves and the pace of technological change, you talk about 50 years is the life of some of this equipment, the difference between technology and let's say, 1930, and 1980, wasn't a huge jump when it comes to poles and wires and transformers. But today, the difference of 50 years is night and day that we're not talking at all about the same technology. So we can't wait for that whole cycle to go through before we're getting some of the tech in today that we need today in order to upgrade the system. So that's helpful to understand what that looks like. So let's look forward then. And when we talk about where we want to go with grid modernization, how we want to change that, talk us through what we're trying to accomplish.

Jenna Gillis 13:14

Yeah, so I think I'm gonna paint a little bit of a picture here in terms of how I think about grid modernization, because that's really helped me contextualize the way that we need to do things differently. So I think of grid modernization, that program in entirety as like a stacked or a layer pyramid. At the bottom, you have field devices. So you have equipment that's remotely controlled, or providing data in the field. So you know, we're talking about sensors, or meters or switches, things like that. That's your foundation. On top of that, you then need a way to get that information back to back to systems back to people. So then you need a communication infrastructure. So you need to be able to take that data and funnel it where it needs to go, which is the third layer data management, you need to store, organize, create access to that field data. And then finally, the fourth triangle right at the very top is your applications and analytics later. So now you've got the data coming from the field, you're bringing it back, and you're managing it. So now what are you going to do with that information. So these are the applications and analytics. So really the tools that digest that data and ultimately help make decisions. So that is what I envisioned kind of as the grid modernization pyramid. And you need each one of those layers to unlock the value from the layer below it. So you can't really have one without the other all the way up to the top. So what we need to start doing is thinking about these layers in a programmatic fashion. What we've done historically is looked at the requirements on a project by project or program by program basis. So basically, you would unlock each one of those layers for that specific project or program requirements. What we need to start doing now is that grid moderization is going to be the foundation for everything we do. So basically, every project, every program is going to require some level of information, data management, analytics, communication. So the way we're looking at that is this is now becoming a foundation to everything we do. So we need to be programmatic, roll this out so that regardless of what we're doing in the future, we have this foundation to rely on. And we're not building it piece by piece as we work through, you know, project life cycles. So really, what's different when I talk about grid modernization assets, and I'm talking about meters, or sensors or remote control devices, is the integrated nature. So we talked about that pyramid, you can't use these devices without any one of those layers, whereas you think of a traditional asset like a pole, you can, you know, load it up at a truck, and somebody can go and put it in the ground. So it's really the the true convergence. Now we're seeing what we, you know, our information technology, our IT systems, our operational technology, or OT systems, and then operations and asset management. So we really need to be looking at these things together, as one, making sure we're all aligned to unlock each one of these layers.

Trevor Freeman 16:15

Yeah, it really highlights the, I guess, cascading impacts of projects and decisions and bringing on new technology across the entire distribution, business and how we do things and how we serve our customers. One is impacting the other in ways that hasn't really, truly been the case before. So that's that's a great way of of painting it. Thanks, Jenna. Let's talk about kind of the the why behind this, what are the benefits that we're going to see by taking this approach by taking this sort of accelerated upgraded process that we're doing? What are we going to gain from this.

Jenna Gillis 16:54

So our overall grid modernization strategy is guided by five key objectives. So I'll go through each one of those and give you kind of a high level blurb on on what it is that we're trying to achieve with grid modernization. So the first one is enhancing reliability. So the more monitoring devices you have in the field to understand the state of the grid, the more remote capabilities you have in order to operate. And you know, isolate and restore, the better reliability have the ultimate goal is moving towards an automated process, where you have all of the foundation of the equipment, the communication channels and the audit, the analytics to make decisions, you can get outages restored much more quickly. The next one is what we call flexibility. So adaptive grid flexibility. So we want to make sure that the grid is dynamic to all of these changing energy demands that we're seeing come online, so things like heat pumps, or electric vehicles, or solar generation or battery, we want to provide more options for the connections and be able to have the grid respond dynamically to these changing conditions. Next one we have is fortified resilience and robust security. So resilience is really about the ability to do to withstand disruptions. And I'm talking about that from, you know, a physical asset perspective, but maybe also a technology perspective, as well, we want to make sure that we have a good diversity, to be able to recover from disruptions. So we know there will always be disruptions, as we've seen, kind of with the weather and the little last little while. And then as we get more and more connected, we need to make sure we're safeguarding assets from cyber threats, core to everything we do, we want to make sure that we're thinking about the customer. And so we're looking towards strengthening customer engagement and empowerment. So we've talked about, you know, getting more data back from the field and being able to unlock new new ways of doing things, new tools, and providing some of this information back to the customers to help them be better informed about their energy uses, and their, their low profile and what they want to do with their equipment. And then finally, sustainable decarbonisation of renewable energy integration. So we really want to look at reducing our carbon footprint by optimizing our planning and operations processes. So we talked about it a little bit about automation, you know, that will reduce our need to roll trucks for crews to physically go out in the field and operate devices. And basically, everything above we talked about was, you know, being able to incorporate renewable energy sources. We want to make sure that we have the ability to bring these resources online and leverage them.

Trevor Freeman 19:34

Yeah, I mean, it really kind of, again, not to kind of reiterate the same things we're talking about, but it it's an all encompassing type of project like everything we're trying to do everything we talk about on this show, when it comes to the energy transition, whether that's having a more robust, sustainable, smart grid on the utility side of things, to enabling the kinds of things our customers want to do in terms of adding in more DER's, more self generation and storage, this project is kind of the foundation work. And that's going to support all of those efforts. And we're really only going to get so far without doing this kind of work, which stresses the importance of it.

Jenna Gillis 20:19

Yeah, it really does unlock so much more by having this level of information and visibility into our system that we want to achieve.

Trevor Freeman 20:27

Yeah, that's great. Okay, so let's kind of dive in here you have this overall strategy that you and your team have outlined, which you're calling our grid modernization roadmap. Walk us through the main components of this and kind of the timelines that you've laid out? Is this a six months project? I say that kind of laughing, knowing is not a six month project? How long is this going to take? And what are the major components of this.

Jenna Gillis 20:53

So hopefully, I've done some justification in terms of, you know, mapping out how complex this actually is to deploy. And so our grid modernization roadmap is set out, basically a set of initiatives over the next 10 plus years. So we've kind of, you know, got got a good handle on the objectives we want to unlock over the next 10 years. And so we've laid out, what do we need to do to unlock those, and what's the timing of that. So we also need to understand that this is going to be dynamic and constantly evolving with, you know, technology or market drivers. So you know, this roadmap is only as good as it is today until you know, something changes tomorrow. And we recognize that this is going to have to be dynamic and evolving. So due to the complexity of it, we decided to basically bucket the program into six different component layers so that we can really get a sense of how one feeds into the next as I kind of talked a little bit about the pyramid before. So the first one is physical infrastructure. Number two is sensing and measurement. The third is communication. Fourth is data management and analytics. Number five is control and optimization. And then finally, the last number six is business and regulatory. And so all of our initiatives fit underneath one of those six components.

Trevor Freeman 22:12

Okay, so let's dive in and pull them apart that I'd love to kind of talk more about each of those. And just for our listeners, we're going to keep this fairly high level, because we don't have time to get into super detail on all six. But the plan is actually to take future episodes and maybe pull apart some of these in more detail. So if you're super interested in what we're talking about today, don't worry, we'll we'll dive into more detail. So let's start at the top with physical infrastructure. What does that entail?

Jenna Gillis 22:40

So the physical infrastructure component really targets the challenges and opportunities posed by electric vehicles electrification, climate vulnerability on the grid itself. So we talked a little bit about the fact that we need to start adapting, or continue to adapt our asset management practices to address these factors. So you know, what does that mean that that's things like I talked about before about increasing the rate that we add new technology or remote switches and sensors and things like that into the system. And I talked before about resiliency and flexibility. And a corporate part of this is, you know, incorporating an increased level of climate risk consideration into our, you know, acid assessments and our plan for renewal or replacement of those devices.

Trevor Freeman 23:28

Yeah, so this part of the strategy is really about, you know, the actual devices in the field that are going to be installed the new technology that we want to get out into the field on our grid. Let's let's pick apart that last piece a little bit, the climate vulnerability, how are we also trying to, you know, for lack of a better word, harden our grid, or make it a little more resilient to some of the the weather events we're seeing?

Jenna Gillis 23:52

Yeah, so I think everybody's probably well aware that it's not about, you know, if we're going to see, you know, another large weather round, it's about, it's about when. We've always incorporated those types of things into our asset planning. But now, the frequency and severity of these things is becoming higher and higher. So what we started looking at is, you know, reliability has always been a priority. But now we're shifting gears a little bit to resilience. So I talked about that before. And that's more about withstanding and recovering quickly from the events, like I said, we know they're going to happen. So how are we going to make sure that we can recover as quickly as possible. So with looking at that, we're looking at things like reviewing our design elements, like strengthening the poles that we install or doing strategic undergrounding and sections of overhead lines that we know have a high exposure, and like subsequent consequence of failure. So we are building all of these strategies now as well into that asset management in the deployment of what we're putting out into the field.

Trevor Freeman 24:50

Great. And again, just for our listeners, you know, I want to talk more about what we're doing and what can be done on that climate resiliency piece. So there, you know, keep your eyes open for further episode on that down the road. Okay, so the next piece you talked about is sensing and measurement at a high level, talk us through what that what that means and how that contributes to overall grid effectiveness.

Jenna Gillis 25:13

Yeah, so sensing and measurement is more than just installing the physical devices that we kind of talked about in the previous component. And its devices like sensors to detect faults and report back and where there might be disturbances or outages on the system. And it's more than just meters on customer homes, it's about integrating that data back into our grid management systems. So you know, our ultimate goal is to have real time access to all of the data from our customer meters, you know, that's over 350,000 meters. But to achieve this, we need to have a robust strategy to transfer that information store that information, at the right frequency, meaning in terms of, you know, how often do we get the information from this devices? And how often do we receive that information back in the office for all of the different use cases, and there's, you know, there's hundreds of use cases for that information. So this does represent a significant shift in the way that we're using our meters right now. Right now, when I talk about our customer meters, we take a reading from those once every 24 hours, with hourly level of granular data. So it's basically once every 24 hours, we get 24 points of data. You know, and we're talking about what we want to do with grid modernization, we're looking at, you know, reading those meters, you know, once a minute with more information. So you can see there is a huge shift in the way that we've got kind of the infrastructure set up around those things.

Trevor Freeman 26:43

When you talk about those numbers, so 24 data points every or every day, changing to potentially reading every minute. Remember, we're multiplying that by 350,000. So that's a huge amount of data. And, you know, Jenna and I are working for hydro Ottawa here, one of the sort of medium size utilities in the province of Ontario, we've got other utilities in the sector that have millions of customers. So the importance of data and how we handle that, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute is certainly really high on the priority list. You know, some of what you mentioned there sounds a lot like what we call advanced metering infrastructure 2.0 or AMI 2.0. So for those kind of in the industry that know what that is, that's maybe the next generation of meters, we might be talking about, how does that differ from the existing smart meters that exist all across Ontario? And that doesn't mean they exist everywhere in North America, but at least in Ontario, we've got kind of what we call AMI 1.0. What does AMI 2.0 look like? And how does that change things?

Jenna Gillis 27:50

Yeah, so there's kind of one key critical factor, AMI 1.0 was rolled out with, you know, one main purpose, that's billing. And so our meters are set and our communication infrastructure is set up to again, report back on a frequency that makes sense for monthly billing. So like I said, in other words, that's a once a day reading. And so that data is stored and available the next day, so not, not what we would call real time. So this information is incredibly valuable. And we do use it for planning and supporting operational processes. But it doesn't allow us to respond real time to the conditions on the system, right down to that customer level. So AMI 2.0, which is basically fate. You know, the next step from that first level of having, you know, meters that we can read remotely from the office is more just about than, like I mentioned before about installing sensors, it's not just changing those meters, we talked about the data requirement. And so it's also a substantial upgrade to our communication infrastructure to get that higher volume of data back from the field. And what are we going to use that information for? Like, why is it important to have it real time as opposed to you know, the next day, it's because these meters will be able to give us things like a power off notification. So we talked before about the fact that we do still rely right now on our customers calling in to let us know that they are out of power in the future with AMI 2.0. The intention will be that these meters will report right back into that outage management system. And we will know as soon as that meter sends a signal, say, Oh, I've lost power. The second piece of that is we'd want to know when your power comes back on. So we're going through we're doing our restoration efforts, we want to make sure that we're picking everybody up. So we'd also be able to get a signal coming back on and say like yep, I just turned back on. So having this visibility right down to the customer level gives us so much more flexibility in terms of how we can respond to the system in real time. The other one it also opens a whole bunch of other future use cases such as you know, we talked about unlocking benefits for our customers as well but real time data but their energy uses and you know, providing additional tools or software to help them look at their consumption and overall save money on their bill. So I'm then that's a future step. We're not there today, but the work is on the way to achieve that. And that, you know, those are some of our guiding principles around what we're doing for grid modernization. Yeah really highlights how powerful it can be to know what's happening in real time at every, you know, end use of our entire grid, every customer knowing exactly where the issues are exactly when they get resolved or don't get results. So that's pretty powerful information. So, as we've kind of talked about, there's a natural tie over from having that sensing and metering equipment out in the field, gathering that data, and then getting that data back to our system office where we can use it. And that's where communication comes in. So tell us about the critical role that our communication technology will play. So today, hydro has a communication network that we've spent our entire service to territory, and it uses a bunch of different technologies or different channels like cellular networks, radio, fibre phone lines, so we've got a diverse communication network that sees across our service territory. So again, kind of parallel in the way that we've been deploying some of these smart technologies. This strategy is very effective and accommodating the sensing and measurement control devices that we've been doing today. But again, we are talking about an increase in data we're talking about an increase of physical devices means that we need faster higher capacity methods to get that data from the field back into our systems. So again, this is all part of the strategy that we're focused on is making sure that we have this backbone communication infrastructure ready to connect these devices into. We don't have all the answers on that yet. But we know roughly where we need to get to. And again, it's part of this roadmap to make sure that we achieve those objectives.

Trevor Freeman 31:47

So when we talk about communication and sending data over communication networks, increasingly, we all know, the challenges with cybersecurity. And people may be wondering, how are we going to protect all this data that's now flowing, that's giving real time information about you know, power use on our grid? How does cybersecurity fit in within this plan.

Jenna Gillis 32:08

So we do have a robust cybersecurity standards that we follow, and a dedicated team who looks after these things for us. So as we know, as the grid becomes more and more connected, cybersecurity becomes an even more crucial part of this. And it's a critical factor. And we you know, we mentioned it as one of the core objectives of the program is to, you know, maintain our security. So if you think about it in the past, when we went and you know, just installed a device that, you know, somebody could go in and control from a bucket truck, you didn't have to incorporate cybersecurity standards, you didn't have to, you know, have a device, go through the multiple levels of checks and validation that we have to do things today. So it is another another shift in the way that we operate, right is that and again, we need to keep pace on the technology standpoint of things, not just the physical device.

Trevor Freeman 32:58

Totally. Okay. So there's definitely a bit of a flow here, because we talked about the data in the field, we talked about communication. Now we've got that data coming into hydronic, into our system office, we kind of move into that next piece, you talked about data management and analytics. How does all this data help us transform our grid? What do we do with this data once we get it?

Jenna Gillis 33:22

Yeah, so raw data coming from the field isn't overly valuable, what you need to do is you need to have an established framework for that information to allow the users to access that in real time. And so when I'm talking users right now, you know I'm talking about it could be a number of different meanings. But today, we're really talking about our hydro Ottawa control room operators, I'm talking about, you know, our planning teams, our operations teams, and our maintenance systems information. So you need to make sure that you have a framework to access that information in meaningful formats. So you know, eventually, once we get a sense of what this information is, and we have a robust strategy around it, we could be providing that information to customers for their energy management systems and use cases like we talked about before. So the other piece is as we collect more and more information on the condition and use of our assets, we can refine and enhance our decision making planning operations, asset management becomes more and more formed. So each one of these pieces of data is critical, but you need to make sure that you have a strong framework around it. So you are gleaning the value from that information.

Trevor Freeman 34:24

Yeah, I mean, you're kind of talking about analytics here. And, you know, analytics is essentially combing through that vast amount of raw data and pulling out insights to make smart evidence based decisions. I know I'm asking you to kind of look in a crystal ball here, but what kinds of insights are you expecting to get once we have access to all this data?

Jenna Gillis 34:45

Yeah, so really, the expectation is, the more information we have about how the grid operates and performs under a variety of different conditions. We'll be better able to plan and optimize that configuration when I talked before about you know that grid resiliency, so What is the best configuration of our of our network? Where do we have problems downstream that we maybe didn't see before. But now we see. So we can start setting things up differently. It will help us enhance our ability to appropriately size and prioritize our investments and make better use of the existing assets that we have. So in light of all these uncertainties we got about electric vehicles electrification and climate risks. The more information we have at our fingertips, the quicker we're going to be able to respond and adjust our strategies to keep up with those market drivers.

Trevor Freeman 35:34

Yeah, you. So asset utilization is a really fascinating piece. And again, you know, this isn't the episode to dive into that. But just quickly, for our listeners, you know, you may be familiar that utility companies have to design to peak load. So we need to be able to provide the highest amount of power that people need, whether it's a hot, sunny summer afternoon, and everyone's got their air conditioning on. But while we're not using that peak load, assets are sitting underutilized, we're not using the capacity we need. And the more of that capacity we can use, the better. And by putting in some of this technology. By gaining those insights, if we can do appropriate, switching or better planning to utilize our assets better, everybody wins, our grid is more effective, it's more economical. And I think we're all in better shape. So great to see where we're going with that. The next component you talked about is control and optimization. So we talked about how we control the grid today and how it's kind of a manual process. We have, you know, really smart folks sitting in our system office who are making important decisions. How does that control evolve with this strategy?

Jenna Gillis 36:48

Yeah, so this layer, this control, and optimization is really about using all of that data to make informed decisions. So one, we're actually undergoing one big transformation, transformative project right now. And you You referenced it earlier, it's our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. So what this is, is it's really a complete modernization of the software tools used by our control room operators. So the individuals sitting at the desk watching the state of the grid 24/7 365. So to give you a sense of what they're using today to see that picture is the operators have to interact with at least five separate systems right now that are not integrated to gain all that full picture. So the intent of this project, and the main driver is to paint one pane of glass for the operators, it's amalgamating those five separate systems into one view, to give them better insights into the status system. So we're going to be Malkin ating, these five systems, but also then incorporating more of this field data that we've talked about collecting as well. So some of the things that we kind of lock with the advanced distribution management system that we aren't capable of doing today is working towards implementing a fault location, isolation and service restoration scheme. So if you're in the industry, that's well known as FLISAR. So what this is

Trevor Freeman 38:06

a fantastic name, by the way.

Jenna Gillis 38:08

Yeah, what this is really about is two way communication to and from these field devices and sensors to get a sense of where we might be seeing issues on on the distribution system. So where we have faults, or where we have outages occurring, this system will then it's an analytic platform that takes all the information back and it can propose to the operators switching to restore as many customers as we can and isolate that faulted section with line. This future step of that is once we get comfortable, and we know the system and the analytics are working effectively is to allow the system to do it automatically. So instead of proposing switching to an operator who can make the decision and then perform the switching or roll a field crew, eventually we'd be able to do this automatically. So once the system is configured, and we've got all those remotely operable devices in the field, we would allow the system to make automatic decisions and restore and isolate the faulted sections

Trevor Freeman 39:03

So I mean, you're talking about analyzing data and making decisions automatically. It's kind of sounds like AI a little bit, which, of course, is a pretty, you know, buzzword these days in a lot of different sectors. Does, does AI come into play here in terms of making decisions and controlling things on the grid?

Jenna Gillis 39:22

Yeah, so I mean, we have a number of use cases that we're looking at right now with AI. And obviously, the more data we get, the more opportunities we have to leverage technology and AI. So some of the things we're looking at right now is things like predicting and forecasting demand levels or load levels that are on the distribution grid based on you know, a number of inputs, so like the grid status, what's the weather going to be? What did you know? What was the historical loading and things like that? And when you have multiple factors like that, that feed into, you know, what is your customers load going to be? You need something like AI to be able to digest all of that information and come up with recommendations another one This is just analyzing multiple sensors and control boards to help us predict failures. So the more more information we're getting back on the assets, we can use AI to help us explore build models to help us identify exceptions in those large amounts of data. And in order to be able to flag potential failures, and allow us to intervene and course correct before, you know, they potentially cause an outage or something like that.

Trevor Freeman 40:23

Yeah, so that would be and correct me if I'm, if I'm wrong here and interpreting this wrong. That's like, taking a bunch of data points on our existing equipment is running, maybe you know that the temperature that we're seeing, or the loading on that equipment and how that relates to its normal operating load, and be able to say, we think based on the operating conditions, this piece of equipment is likely to fail faster than otherwise it would, is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah,

Jenna Gillis 40:49

Yeah, exactly. Or even in real time, this piece of equipment is going to overload. And so you need to take intervention and move load around door, something like that as well. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.

Trevor Freeman 40:58

Yeah. And all of that data. I mean, that's all things that we know how to do. But no human can possibly do that in real time with the amount of data coming in. And so that's where some of this advanced technology and AI, artificial intelligence really comes into play to help us pull that out of the massive sea of data that we're going to be getting. Okay. Okay, so the last component, you mentioned it, you know, on the surface, it might seem like a bit of an outlier business and regulatory, but I think it really ties it all together. And it's, again, one of those foundational pieces. So you know, that the electricity sector is highly regulated, as our listeners probably know, it's extremely complex to navigate. It has been accused, in the past of, you know, not being very conducive to innovation and change. What are some of the priority areas that you've identified, whether that's, you know, dialogue with our regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, or just, you know, regulations and policies, internal or external to our organization that that you think, need to come into play to make this modernization happen?

Jenna Gillis 42:06

Yeah, the whole objective of kind of the business and regulatory stream through good moderization is about building a holistic approach to build operational structures and processes to be able to address and respond to these dynamic market drivers. So one of our big priorities right now is to raise awareness of this of this approach. And the fact that we're broadening our investment categories beyond what you know, I'd consider to be those traditional asset condition or reliability or end of life types of drivers to know, include and layer into it these system observability, these control points and this resiliency, which is a shift in terms of you know, how how we we've justified or how a regulator has looked at the way that we do business in the past. But we also make sure we need to look internally. So it's not just about looking externally and making sure that we're aligned with our regulator, but it's about looking at our internal business process to make sure that we're aligned to deliver the value that we've set out for the grid modernization objectives. So we need to make sure that we have mechanisms to be able to measure our success, and feed that back into continuous improvement I talked about the roadmap is, is needing to be a dynamic, so we need to make sure that we're monitoring our progress towards the delivering of those chapters, and have ability to stop and pivot where we need to when we need to

Trevor Freeman 43:24

this kind of opened the door for new business models or new way of doing things? And are there like specific pilots that we're considering or specific initiatives?

Jenna Gillis 43:35

Yeah, there's, there's a lot going on in the electricity sector right now, one of the big kind of hot topics right now is that there's indications that local distribution companies may need to in the future operate in a similar capacity to the way the Independent Electricity System Operator behaves. So, the ISO they control and dispatch the bulk systems. So they look at they do forecasting on you know, the Ontario energy needs, and they throttle on and off generation and those types of things, the thought is, this is going to be needed at the local level. So they look at you know, hydro, it was service territory level, we may need to look at dispatching generation and doing dynamic load management and things like that. And this is this is a holistic change to the way that we operate right now. And so we need to be able to future proof ourselves to move down that path if that's where things go and dispatching energies resources. I said it kind of as you know, it's just it's one thing, but it's really it's we talked about a little bit of a comprehensive analysis system to take in all of those inputs and understand forecasting and where things are going to be including an economic factors and all the different customer types, including, you know, the widespread adoption of electric vehicles or battery storage, so it can get to be quite a complex system.

Trevor Freeman 44:59

Yeah. it kinda sounds here, like you're talking about the distribution system operator model or DSO. And, and again, you know, like I've said a couple of times, I think there's a future conversation or future episode about that. But it's like you say, having the distributors, the local distribution companies, able to make decisions on how energy is used within our grid, and then that feeds up into how I saw was running the kind of broader provincial grid. So I'll put a pin in that one. And we'll come back to that on a on a future episode.

Jenna Gillis 45:31

And, yeah, and so something that's important for us to understand too, is if we do go down the road of a DSO, we need to know where and what could impact our operations or where we could have those triggers or throttles on the distribution system. So right now, we're undertaking a pilot program as well, looking at evey charging, and we've called it EV everywhere. And I'm sure everybody's well aware that EVs are, you know, could be a huge dynamic load that show up on our system anywhere at any time whenever, whenever somebody wants to plug in their vehicle. And there's also talked about using EV batteries as an energy source to feed back into the system to help grid capacity constraints. While that still might be a long way off, there are still solutions that we want to manage to leverage the Chargers. And we've looked at, you know, instead of having everybody come in and come home from and you know, after work, plug in their their EV and start charging at 5pm. And causing, you know, a new peak in our demand, looking to be able to stagger that charging and whether that's staggered at local community level, whether that's needing to stagger at, we talked about a substation level or whether we need to stagger that at a whole hydro Ottawa service, territory capacity. So EV everywhere is really looking at the use of artificial intelligence to help us make those predictions about where and when and how long EV charging needs are required and being able to manage those devices. So that it reduces the impact on our distribution network. And we talked about increase our asset utilization. And we're hoping to be able to push that beyond just the pilot stage that we're in today.

Trevor Freeman 47:05

Yeah, and really, that's, you know, for, for the end user, for our customers, that's gonna help us remove barriers to you getting that EV and being able to charge at home or where you live or where you work. So that we're not having to modify the grid drastically in order to allow that, we want to make that process as easy as possible. And this is testing out a strategy to do that. So, Jenna, that's super fantastic to hear about this roadmap that you have. And I mean, look, the listeners out there who know me know that I'm pretty optimistic, and I'm pretty excited about this stuff. But I think it's important to highlight some of the risks. So it's a great roadmap, it's a great plan, what could trip us up what could get in the way of us being able to implement the strategy and rolling it out as you envisioned it?

Jenna Gillis 47:56

I think the first one is that this is, this is large, this is transformative. This touches multiple business areas and, and is, is driven by multiple outside influences. So we need to make sure that we've got holistic change management strategies, we need to look at the pace of change that we're implementing, and not necessarily on the distribution grid, but also on our systems, our process our people. So we need time to make sure that when we introduce a large change that we have some settle in, we have some time to adjust and correct and, you know, keep that dynamic continuous improvement process, as we move from one, it's going to be moved from one change to the next set at pretty rapid pace over the next few years. And with all that change, we need to have the right people, we need the right people, we need the right skill set. And some of these skills are things that we haven't done before. So these are new responsibilities, new skill sets to the organization, and I'm going to put a little plug in here is that we're hiring right now. So take a look at our careers page. And if I've, if I've painted an exciting picture, and you want to be a part of this, take a look. We're hiring some of those skill sets today. And this stuff is going to span multiple years, right? So I feel like in the past, we kind of had you know, like, oh, well, that's a five year program. And then and then you're done no like this is this is going to be a continuous evolution. And these can span multi years. And I talked about it before, we need to be able to adapt and pivot to meet the requirements of technology and our customers. And we need to expect that and so we need to build the that ability to stay dynamic through these multi year programs. To make sure that, you know, we maybe we need to change what our grid modernization objectives are halfway through, and that's okay, we can do that.

Trevor Freeman 49:36

Yeah, I think if there's one kind of common theme that comes up in these conversations that I get to have as part of, as part of the show is this is big change that we're talking about here. This is sort of fundamental change within not just one organization within an entire sector and we're all trying to figure out how we do it, we've all got different ideas, and we're working together. And I think your your point about, we need the right people to do that we need people that are really passionate about this and really smart, and see the opportunity to create that change and realize, hey, you know, the utility is not a bad spot to do that it's kind of at the epicenter of a lot of what we're doing here when it comes to energy. So great thoughts. So, I mean, that's kind of the end of the grid modernization question. So I don't know if if now we get into the the easier part of the conversation or the harder part. By we,

Jenna Gillis 50:35

you're talking, you're talking to an engineer. So when we talk personal, it's harder than the techniques of the technology.

Trevor Freeman 50:42

Awesome. Yeah, I can, I can definitely relate. So we we always end our show with with the same questions to our guests. And it just kind of helps us learn a little bit more about you. So as long as you're okay with it, we're gonna dive right in.

Jenna Gillis 50:56

Yeah, let's do it.

Trevor Freeman 50:58

So what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

Jenna Gillis 51:01

So I mean, I think I kind of already touched on it. And the fact that these were the more uncomfortable questions for me. One book that I read that I really enjoyed is as quiet the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking by Susan Cain. She has a TED talk, too. So if you want to kind of get a short snippet of what she's talking about, but really, it's about dynamics of how our world emphasizes extraversion, and basically everything that we set up and everything we do, and so we need to make sure that we're allowing space for our introverts.

Trevor Freeman 51:31

Great,I like that. What about a movie or a show?

Jenna Gillis 51:35

So I'm not a big movie person. But I've got a TV show. It's pretty niche. It's called the Curse of Oak Island, I'm sure probably not very many people know what I'm talking about. But I followed the story from the beginning. So the show started airing a long time ago. It's basically about a 200 year old treasure hunting mystery in Nova Scotia, touches on archaeology and some potential connections right back to the Knights Templar. So I've become pretty invested in it. It's one show

Trevor Freeman 52:04

is your next vacation to Halifax to go and check out the Oak Island and find this treasure?

Jenna Gillis 52:09

You know, I think it would be pretty cool maybe once like to go and see see what they're doing and like the the size and scale of what they're doing, but I wouldn't necessarily dedicate a whole trip to it.

Trevor Freeman 52:21

Good to know well on that note, what if somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world? Where would you go?

Jenna Gillis 52:29

Yeah, so not not Nova Scotia. I'd love to be able to be out and see the northern lights. So somewhere like Iceland or Greenland, I think, seeing seeing something totally different than what I'm used to here in here in Ottawa.

Trevor Freeman 52:44

very cool. Who is someone that you admire?

Jenna Gillis 52:47

So I feel like this is gonna be really cliche given that Taylor Swift has recently released another another album. But Taylor Swift, I think she's incredibly powerful and positive female influence and think she's a great role model. She's got strong big business strategy and authenticity. So I think she's, she's a great role model for girls to be looking up to.

Trevor Freeman 53:12

Yeah, I'm, I'm currently I'm not ashamed to admit I'm currently going through her eras tour with my kids right now. We're watching it and kind of little bits and pieces here. And while we're watching, and I'm texting my nieces, because they're big. They're big Swifties. So that's a great example. And finally, and you're a great person to, to answer this question being kind of right out in the weeds of the energy change. What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?

Jenna Gillis 53:42

It's really about the pace of change. So I, you know, we talked about like, I've been with hydro water for about 16 years now. And I feel like we've always been saying it's coming. It's coming. It's right on the horizon, right. So it's here, we're seeing it, we've always been kind of forecasting and wondering when it was going to hit and it's here. So I love that we need to be innovative. I love that we need to rethink the way that we're doing things. And I'm super excited to start breaking down silos and building these cohesive strategies and working together to problem solve, because it's more important now than ever to, to build that integration with, you know, everybody on the team. So that's what I'm super excited about.

Trevor Freeman 54:18

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. That's, that's what keeps me coming into work every day to I really like them. Jenna, this has been a really great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights with us on what hydro Ottawa is doing when it comes to grid modernization and just kind of sharing your experience and your expertise on how we're changing and getting ready for the future. I really appreciate it.

Jenna Gillis 54:39

Well, thanks,Trevor. Hopefully I did. I did some justice to what we're doing. And hopefully I've piqued some interest in diving deeper into some of these very specific initiatives that we've got underway.

Trevor Freeman 54:51

Absolutely. And don't be surprised if I reach back out to you to come and dive deeper on some of those as well. So we'll have you back on another time.

Jenna Gillis 54:58

Perfect. Thanks a lot, Trevor. Appreciate it.

Trevor Freeman 55:01

Thanks. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review and really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or our guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydroottawa.com

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Summer rewind: Ontario's electricity sector is evolving, as the province navigates the transition to cleaner energy amidst rising demand. In thinkenergy episode 135, we explore the grid's structure and key players, highlighting the crucial role of distributors (Local Distribution Companies or LDCs) in facilitating this transition. Guest Teresa Sarkesian, President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association (EDA), sheds light on LDCs' frontline efforts and contributions shaping the energy landscape.

Related links

• Teresa Sarkesian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-sarkesian-53898613/
• Electricity Distributors Association: https://www.eda-on.ca/
• Green Button information: https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/green-button
• Electrification and energy transition panel report: https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontarios-clean-energy-opportunity-report-electrification-and-energy-transition-panel
• Ontario Electricity Support Program: https://ontarioelectricitysupport.ca/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Trevor Freeman

Hey everyone. Well, it's officially summer, and the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next two months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry, though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair, Dan Sagan, as well as a couple of mine from the past few months, and you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well. Wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer, and we'll be back with new content in September, and until then, happy listening.

Trevor Freeman 0:07

Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at think energy at hydro ottawa.com Hi, everyone, welcome back. Now it's no secret that Ontario's electricity sector is transforming rapidly as it moves to both decarbonize the grid itself, you know, we have a very clean grid in Ontario, but it's not totally carbon free. And to support the growing demand for electricity as our customers across the province, take steps to electrify and change how they use energy. The show is all about exploring those changes, among other things, and today is no different. But before we dive into our conversation today, I think it would be helpful for me to spend just a few quick minutes on some basics about how our electricity grid is structured in Ontario, and who some of the key players are. Now I know some of our listeners will know this already, but it can be hard to keep track of all those key players. And Ontario's structure is a little different than some of the neighboring jurisdictions no two jurisdictions are exactly alike. So, a refresher is never a bad thing. Now the most basic description is that electricity is largely generated at central generation facilities. So, think nuclear power plants are your electric generating stations, some gas fired generating stations and large-scale wind and solar installations. We call these entities generators simple as that. That electricity is then transmitted across the province in an interconnected grid of high voltage transmission lines, which also connect to other jurisdictions such as neighboring provinces and states, and Ontario, Hydro One runs the transmission network. Now you've probably seen this transmission network. These would be the large metal towers that you see out in the middle of a field when you're driving along the highway or in rural areas that have electricity wires strung way up high in the air. The last stage before it gets to the end user is called distribution. So, this is where electricity is taken from those high voltage lines stepped down to a usable voltage for residential and commercial customers via transformers and substations, and then distributed over a network of overhead and underground wires, then these would be the wires that you would see at the top of those wooden or composite poles that are along the side of the road in your neighborhood. The entities that run this distribution part are called distributors, again, simple as that. So, there's a few other key players that are worth mentioning here. Energy Policy is primarily the jurisdiction of the provincial government, who sets the general direction and associated rules and regulations accordingly. The Ontario Energy Board or OEB is the regulatory body who governs what all those other players do and enacts the government mandate. And finally, at least for today's purposes, we have the system operator. It's called The Independent Electricity System Operator in Ontario, or IESO, who runs the system. So, if you're in Windsor, Ontario, or Ottawa, or North Bay, and you want to turn on your air conditioner, or plug your EV in to charge, the IESO is responsible for making sure there's enough power on the grid to handle that load. So, I hope everyone is still with me and feel free to pause and do some jumping jacks if that was a lot to take in. Our conversation today is going to be focused on the role of the distributor. So, for full disclosure, as you know, I work for hydro Ottawa who is one of those distributors, we serve most electricity customers in the City of Ottawa, and the neighboring village of Casselman and in Ontario, you will often hear distributors referred to as local distribution companies or LDCs. So forgive me if I slip into that acronym throughout the conversation today, that's really just the sort of common name that we refer to those distributors as. But I'll try to mix it up and make sure that, that I'm explaining that acronym throughout as well. So the distributor is really the front line, the customer facing entity of the entire electricity system. If you are an electricity customer, and you think about the electricity system, you are probably thinking about your distributor. Chances are you get your bill from a distributor, even though for most customers, most of what you pay on that bill doesn't actually go to the LDC. Some of it stays with your local distribution company, but most of it goes to the transmitter to the generator, to the IESO etc. When the power goes out, it's probably your LDC that you call and it's your LDC that will give you a restoration time. Sometimes outages are caused by issues up the line, so to speak in the transmission portion of the grid. But often the issue is a localized one. And it's your LDC that is identifying the problem and fixing it, whether that means rolling a truck to string new cable, or performing switching to work around the problem. And finally, it's your LDC that is really on the frontlines of the energy transition. While all parts of the grid must then have started to change, the LDCs are really working hand in hand with our customers to identify where and how fast and new demand is needed to bridge that gap between customers and policymakers to enable more and more renewable generation. And also to determine what new technologies or programs we need to pilot and scale up. And it's really the LDCs that are driving change in the way that electricity is managed at the individual customer level moving forward. So to help us make some sense of this, I'm happy to have Teresa Sarkesian on the show today. Teresa is the president and CEO of the electricity Distributors Association, which is a role that she's held since 2016. This is actually Teresa second time on the show the first being back in December 2021. So we're happy to have Teresa back, Teresa, welcome back to the show.

Teresa Sarkesian 6:23

Thanks so much, Trevor. I'm really delighted to be back.

Trevor Freeman 6:27

Yeah, we're glad to have you. So, like I said, you were back on our show in 2021. I don't know if it's because of how COVID has changed our lives or if this is just the way things go. But sometimes, you know, weeks seem like years. So 2021 is a long time ago. Let's start by refreshing our listeners on the role and mandate of the electricity Distributors Association.

Teresa Sarkesian 6:49

Sure thing so the electricity Distributors Association, or the EDA our little acronym represents Ontario's public and private electric utilities that distribute electricity to 5.4 million homes, businesses and institutional customers across the province. And I should note that those 5.4 million customers really refers to build accounts so you have families that are behind a build account. So effectively the millions and millions of Ontarians and businesses that operate and live here are customers of our utilities. And as you know our members are on the front lines of power, and have developed a strong trust with their customers by providing safe, reliable and affordable service for over 100 years. The EDA itself provides analysis and networking and advocacy for our members to ensure that the energy policy direction and framework in Ontario is fair and balanced, supporting the financial viability of utilities to deliver service and ensuring affordability for customers. And long term, we are looking to ensure that our local distribution company members can become the premier energy solution providers to their customers, and that they're able to provide the value-added services that customers are already expecting from them but are going to grow with the energy transformation and electrification in the future.

Trevor Freeman 8:09

Yeah, it's kind of like I said, when people think about the electricity sector, they're probably thinking about their distributor. And the EDA is kind of that common voice for those distribution companies. So, you first joined the EDA back in 2009, and have been the president and CEO since 2016. So, we'll look ahead and talk about the future in a minute. But before we do that, tell us about how things have changed so far during your tenure. How are things different from 2009 When you first joined the organization?

Teresa Sarkesian 8:40

Yeah, and you know, this is almost like perfect timing, Trevor, because I've been at the association now for 15 years, I'm just marking my 15-year anniversary. So, feels really apropos to kind of reflect and look back. So, I want to break down my answer into two parts. So, I'm going to talk to you about some, I guess, just my own personal observations about the electricity system at large. And then I'm going to talk more about the changes in distribution. But some of the changes that I thought were really quite significant and profound, sort of when I joined the industry in 2009, I joined at a time when there was the Green Energy Act, and the province was looking to connect all kinds of renewable energy generation to the electricity grid. So that was fairly significant. Another thing that was happening with the province is that they closed down coal fired generation. That was pretty massive. In fact, I think, at the time, it was the largest kind of carbon reduction initiative in North America. And I think even to this date today, I think it still is something that Ontario really has to be proud of. Another thing that you know, at the time, I think that was you know, fairly significant in 2015 is just the expectation of what the demand would be. What was interesting, sort of like the past for 15 years, the demand from customers for electricity was actually flat or declining. And that's all changed. Now. 15 years later, we're, we're now forecasting, massive increases in in demand of energy, which could potentially be doubling in the future. And the other point I'd like to make is just the nuclear renaissance that we're having. I think when I joined the sector in 2009, I'll tell you, I think the public opinion of nuclear was actually quite low. And that's been completely turned around lots of geopolitical events around the world, I think, have driven that. And now that nuclear is having a huge Renaissance. And you're seeing, you know, lots of new investments in nuclear. And we're not talking about shutting down reactors anymore. We're talking about refurbishing and expanding. So those are some of the things that I've observed over the last 15 years that have really changed. And for local distribution companies, I think what I have seen is a growing expectation by both government and the regulators for electric utilities to do more to both support the grid reliability and meet growing expectation from customers. So, I started in the sector in 2009, it was right on the brink of implementation of smart meters, and time of use. And what was interesting is that was mandated, there were very few jurisdictions in the world that actually had mandated smart meters and time of use pricing. So again, Ontario is was one of the first. And so that was a big change for LDCs. To move from, you know, smart meters and having to bring in that technology and also support the technology of time of use. I did mention the Green Energy Act at the time, we suddenly had to connect 1000s and 1000s, of new solar and wind generation, as well. And that was all new. There were no protocols, there were no standards for that. So that was fairly significant as well. And when I kind of fast forward to I guess, more recently, there have been a lot of changes from government, I think they've really supported our industry, they understand the trust that we have, with our customers. And they've implemented, you know, a number of new changes in terms of rate structures, they've asked us to implement ultra low-rate pricing that can support overnight electric vehicle charging. And they've also asked us to introduce a green button digital platform that allows customers to download their energy data and share with third parties for you know, different assessments and tools for lowering energy costs. But it's all not, you know, unicorns and kittens, there's challenges to for our sector, grid resilience was, you know, not really, people talked about it in 2009, but not like they're talking about it now, because of climate change. And we are seeing more frequent storms, causing, you know, obviously, outages for the customer, and also significant damage to the distribution grid. And I know that hydro Ottawa has faced more than its fair share of very destructive storms over the past few years, we have Yes, I can't remember which Victoria Day weekend where we had, I didn't ever know how to say it the derecho or the derecho. So there, we weren't getting storms we've never even heard of before. And unfortunately, I think that is our new normal. So, grid resilience is something that we are very concerned about, and we need to make sure we've got the appropriate investments for that. So those are just a few of the highlights that, you know, when I came into the sector sort of things that were kind of ramping up, and then what's happening now, but I guess what I could say, the commonality is there's constant change in the sector. And what I'm seeing going forward is that change is going to be accelerated.

Trevor Freeman 13:40

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating to listen to you lay it all out like that. Thinking back to 15 years ago, it's hard to even remember, you know, not having smart meters, having meters that really just ticked forward and measured your consumption over the course of a month, and someone would come and read that. And, you know, having declining or even flat demand profiles that aren't increasing is so different from the world that we are in today. But I think what you said there at the end is really important. We are in our industry, an organization that knows about change, we're constantly changing, which helps us as we look forward into your point, we're going to see that level of change and the pace of change accelerate. So, I think that sets us up pretty well. So, let's start to look forward, then I know that the EDA is about to launch a new vision paper. So, we're going to dive into some of the details. But maybe let's start by kind of a high-level summary of what is the vision that you are trying to lay out with this paper?

Teresa Sarkesian 14:42

Okay, and no problem. So, I think what I want to start just give a little bit of background as to why we did this. We've done a couple of vision papers and implementation plans in the past. But you know, they were like seven, eight years ago and things have changed a lot even in Seven or eight years. So, what we've been seeing, obviously, I think the big change over the last few years has been the big focus on meeting Net Zero targets in 2050, that we are going to get to net zero in terms of our greenhouse gas emissions. Not only in Canada, but this is actually a bit of a global commitment, you know, for countries that have signed on to that objective. So, what happens when you set up, you know, those big audacious goals? You have all kinds of organizations and entities looking at how are we going to get there, how much it's going to cost? What do we need to do to get there? And so when we started reviewing some of these publications, both in Ontario, Canada, and actually in other jurisdictions, they were very good. They talked about what supply mix that we need the investment in transmission, but almost 100% of the papers, Trevor, if you can believe this, just neglected distribution, no one talked about distribution, they didn't talk about how distribution is going to have to change what the investments would be. And then we'll so we said it's going to be critical for us to identify the electric utility role and the energy transition, and how the sector will need to be grid ready to support electrification, economic development, grid resilience, and customer preferences. So we view that LDCs are going to be pivotal in enabling Ontario's low carbon economy, navigating the challenges posed by climate policies, electrification trends, and these evolving customer demands. And with Ontario's growing economy and the demands for housing intensify, LDCs must innovate to effectively meet these accelerating electricity needs and changing preferences. And right now, we've seen the ISO is predicting significant consumption growth from 144 terawatt hours in 2023, to 240 terawatt hours and 2050 not quite double, but it's getting close. And so this rapid growth demands urgent attention to adopt new strategies and to ensure that the local distribution companies can make the necessary investments in grid enhancements to expand the capacity and capability of the distribution system. So while reliability and affordability remain Paramount customers do expect additional value from their utility service. And, you know, we are seeing all sorts of things that are happening, you know, such as the need for swift electric vehicle charging installation, and other upgrades that will increase the electrical load. We see that LDCs are more frequently interacting with businesses that seek utility partners to achieve their energy management, sustainability and ESG goals. And in parallel, the LDC must prepare to respond to increase climate change induced extreme weather events. So recognizing the essential role of LDCs in the energy transition, we've worked in collaboration with industry experts to outline a vision of the role of utilities, so they can enable economic development, housing growth and electrification. And the report identifies urgent and practical steps that LDCs in partnership with the government, and its agencies must take in the near term to achieve the benefits of this transition. So what you'll see in the paper is recommendations related to the need for clear policy direction on regulatory frameworks to support LDCs in becoming grid ready, and with a continued focus on affordability and enabling a customer choice and opportunity. And we also discuss issues like workforce needs. And we also emphasize the role of human capital in enabling technological advancements. So that's very high level what it is, and I will get into it a bit more as we have our discussion further.

Trevor Freeman 18:41

Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it of the entire sector is changing at all levels. But what you're really doing is laying out that vision that roadmap for the distributors, in particular, and I think that's great. Maybe like, Who is the audience for this paper? Who are you kind of directing this at?

Teresa Sarkesian 18:59

Well, we're still putting the crossing the T's and dotting the I's., but I think it's about 80 pages. So, it's not going to be for everyone, obviously, you know, government decision makers, government, policymakers, people that work in their regulatory agencies and our energy board, the Independent Electricity System Operator, we did try to make it accessible. There is an executive summary that's about two or three pages, which I think will be of great interest to a lot of people to read. And I think it gives a very kind of a high-level overview of what's in the document. So that's something that we're trying to do. And, you know, obviously our LTC members are an audience as well. They've been working with us hand in glove the last few months we've had extensive member meetings we had a board committee that helped steer this paper. But you know, ultimately, the paper is really focused on our customers because its customers and businesses that are driving a lot of this change for the future, whether it's businesses that are on their own journey on environmental, social and governance ESG objectives, and they're looking for more low carbon communities to invest in its customers who are very interested in EV charging, and maybe what the opportunity for the batteries can be to sell that storage back to the grid. It's, it's really the customers that are driving this change.

Trevor Freeman 20:31

Right Yeah, and I mean, the nature of this medium is I don't know who's out there listening. But I'd encourage, you know, all of our listeners, when this comes out, take a look at it and get some insight into kind of how the distributors role is laid out there. So let's dive into some of the details. You know, you outline obviously, some of the traditional roles and functions of the LDCs. So from maintaining, owning and maintaining the infrastructure, the poles and wires, and doing customer metering and billing, that stuff's not going away, we're gonna keep doing those things. But you also highlight some of these emerging roles that have begun to appear, or that we'll see in the next couple of years, you know, a more of a focus on distributed energy resources, like solar on roofs, for example, that LDCs are going to have to work to both enable as well as integrate into our own systems. It's going to include things like more customer programs, and rate design, etc. I'm curious, you know, how are LDCs going to balance that traditional role that we've already been doing, along with this rapidly new expanding set of roles that we need to tackle?

Teresa Sarkesian 21:38

That's a great question, Trevor. So look, LDCs will continue, as we always have been to be responsible for safe, reliable and affordable delivery of electricity to customers, customers can count on us to do that 24/7. And even with all these anticipated grid expansions, we're not going to be shut down, if the critic dispatches so, you know, we're experts at multitasking in our sector, and we will continue to do so. And with the increases, as you mentioned, in distributed energy resources, and electrification, there are the pressures for us to adapt, modernize and change how we ensure the safety and reliability in the service to customers. And the emerging roles and responsibilities aren't something that's in the distant future. You know, as I mentioned before, changes the constant, we have been engaging in ongoing adaptation. And so when I think about the future, and I think about what we call grid modernization, it really is part of the ongoing continuous improvement, and the pursuit of the digital utility of the future, that every utility is on that journey. So you know, utilities have been bringing in new technologies, particularly related to information technology, communications, and digital solutions. And so while we're in early stages, we are expecting our members to become more digitally based in the future, they're going to be introducing advanced distribution management systems to monitor the grid. And they're also going to have distributed energy resource management systems to monitor all the connections that are behind the meter. So I think what is different now than in the past, is simply that the pace of change is being dramatically accelerated. So for example, it took us about 100 years to get the grid to its current size, yet, we need to almost double the current grid in 25 years. So we have to move four times as fast. And the grid is not going to be built with just simple poles and wires and one way energy flow like it has been for basically the last 100 years, it's going to be a lot more complex, we're going to see two way energy flows, so it's not just us sending power to the customer one way, they're potentially going to be selling back their energy generation or their energy storage back onto the grid. So we need to have that temerity, that two way, power flow. So that's going to be a big change. And we also expect there to be a lot more customer interaction. They want to leverage their own generation and storage behind the meter. And we as utilities, want to be able to leverage that to help us with you know, reliability, Storm outage, other emergency situations. So we see there's going to be a greater interactive relationship with customer than simply, you know, maybe sending a bill to them or offering them conservation programs, it's going to be much more dynamic than it has been in the past. And so, you know, over the last two decades, and we talked about this a bit already, the utility has been modernizing the system in response to government policy initiatives, regulatory requirements, and customer preferences. One other example, recently, utilities were required to implement something called green button. And we've been also engaging by bringing them more into the system through net metering. And a lot of our members are also involved in various pilot projects with the Independent Electricity System Operator and with Enercan to look at all kinds of new LTC models and functions. So and you're going to see a lot of this actually, in our vision paper is that to really be effective, cost effective. To make sure this happens at the accelerated pace, we do need for there to be proactive policy and regulatory changes, to remove barriers and empower LDCs to embrace these new evolving roles in shaping the future of the energy sector. And as I mentioned before, customers are demanding it. And I want to point out a research report that came out by the International Energy Agency just late last year. And they made it very clear that in quite a number of countries around the world, the lack of the regulatory permission to provide more investments in the distribution system is now becoming a significant barrier to new renewable energy projects connecting on the system. And while we don't have that situation here in Ontario, if we don't start moving quickly, in terms of reforming the regulatory context, then we might be like some of these other countries, and we don't want to be that a barrier, you want to be able to enable what our customers want on the grid.

Trevor Freeman 26:07

Yeah, so I'm going to ask you a question about that last point in a minute. But I think your framing of the ways that the sector is going to change, and the way our customers are going to interact with us is going to change is really great. And it's something that you know, often comes up in conversation. And I often say, there is no single strategy or tool here, we can't solve the coming challenges with just more poles and wires. We can't solve it with just new innovative solutions, we need all of those things, we need more poles and wires. But we also need more programming, more innovation, more technology, we need to utilize those distributed energy resources out there on the grid. So, I think that's a great way to frame it. Okay, so let's talk about grid planning a little bit. So LDCs play a really key role in helping forecast the needs of the future, both for our own distribution systems, but also feeding up into those broader provincial needs. So, the insight that we gain from our customers, we pass up to the IESO, for example, so that they can do planning at the provincial level. Traditionally, this is a pretty consistent process. You know, in the past, we get a sense from municipalities and developers, how cities are going to expand and grow. And we've generally been able to count on the typical home using roughly the same amount of electricity as homes that are out there today. So, we account for a certain expansion of commercial customers based on the Intel that we get from those customers. And we know roughly what they're going to use. The problem is that model's kind of being turned on its head a little bit. So, we now need to account for even our existing customers increasing their load because they are electrifying or they want to add EV chargers. And new developments today are likely going to have increased demand compared to some of the historical developments, because we're going to see all electric communities or at the very least more electrified and uses. So I know you don't have a crystal ball yet that tells us exactly how this change is going to happen. But what are LDCs doing to adapt their long term grid planning to account for this uncertainty?

Teresa Sarkesian 28:22

Yeah, you're so right, Trevor forecasting is getting more challenging. And I just want to start with a little story before I get into my answer about that. So, you know, electric vehicles are kind of the hot thing right now. And you know, although people I think are still on a waiting list for certain cars, there's lots of others that are available. And so one of the concerns that our sector had was we didn't know where these electric vehicles were going to pop up. And we weren't getting any kind of pre advanced warning when people started making orders or, you know, advanced purchases for electric vehicles. So we actually did a great advocacy campaign, with the province with both the Ministry of Energy of the Ministry of Transportation, to secure postal code data for utility, so they could see where people were going to be purchasing electric vehicles to help them with their own planning, in terms of, you know, making sure that their local feeders were upgraded their local transformers, and so that just got announced a year ago. But that's obviously not going to be good enough. And that just tells us about electric vehicles, you know, in the near term, but this is I think, you know, having sightlines into our customer behavior, whether we do that proactively with you know, consultations and communications with customers, or we can do it by you know, pinging the meter, or getting data such as postal codes. We are going to have to, you know, adapt and have greater visibility and sightlines into the customer. And so this is that some of that technology that I was talking about earlier, the sophisticated future grid is going to need lots of visibility and transparency, for usage and investment to be able to, you know, look at these two way power flows, look at how customers are behaving, in order to better plan the system, we also need to maximize and optimize the data that we have, you know, from our planners, it's going to be vital to protecting the grid reliability and resilience, we're going to have to have more partnerships with municipalities, in terms of their energy planning for the future and things that they want for their community. And, you know, one of the things that we're asking for on our paper is actually to, you know, rethink the distribution system plan, that the utilities have to file with the OMB every five years, and start building in a, you know, Grid Modernization plan within that broader plan. So we can get the regulator to start looking ahead and seeing what these requests are, it'll be important to also have various performance metrics and filing guidelines for grid modification from the energy board. So you know, these are some of the things I think that the membership is going to have to look at but it is going to be a very iterative experience, because it's just it's the pace of change is the big unknown. And so everyone talks about these things. But you know, I saw something today, I think it was from Ford Motor Company, and they're kind of slowing down, it's taken them a while to retool their plants. So that could take an extra two years now for them to be up and running and producing electric vehicles. So there's going to be all these other pieces of the puzzle that are constantly going to be changing a moving and evolving. It is I think, planning for the future is going to be very challenging. And I do expect the province to start talking about this higher level, maybe starting at the end of this year, they just came off a massive exercise related to the energy transition electrification panel. And I do expect to see more guidance from the province as well, in terms of how they're going to manage this planet, because it's not just planning for us. It's planning for everybody else in the system, too.

Trevor Freeman 32:02

Yeah. And for listeners out there, if you haven't had a look at that energy transition electrification panel reports, a really fascinating read. So I'd encourage you to take a look at it. You mentioned a lot of interesting things there. So for our listeners, and I'll probably do a future episode on this so I won't get into detail, but LDCs typically have to file five year rate applications once every five years that really lay out their plans for those five years and how they're going to fund them. So coincidentally, hydro Ottawa was getting ready to do our next one. And like I said, I'll probably talk about that on a future episode. But one thing we did when it comes to forecasting is, we conducted a electrification study that looks at if we electrify by 2050, like our plans, say we will and you know, society wise, what does that mean for the grid? And some of the inputs we took is, you know, what are the federal plans for electrification? What are our own municipal plans for electrification? What are we hearing from our customers, and that really, is helping us modify and change how we do grid forecasting, based on some of the changes that we're seeing from our customers. So I think this is a really important piece that, like you said, we're going to need to iterate on we're not going to get it right the first time. But we're starting to think of how do we need to change the way we do things in order to keep up with what our customers are doing.

Teresa Sarkesian 33:28

I think one thing I've seen more of the last few years, because this is much more complex than it's been in the past that I've seen, like the IESO, for example, they've done more, you know, scenario setting. So when they've had their, you know, their APO's and AER safe, they sort of had other two or three scenarios, and they're constantly updating their numbers every year. So these are other changes that we're starting to see. And even myself, I was just looking at the provincial budget detail the other day, they also set out, you know, scenarios as well. They're just not picking Oh, it's going to be, you know, X amount of deficit. And you know in 2028 they're actually forecasting out different scenarios. So I think that's another piece I see more in play, that people will, you know, showcase what assumptions they have, and will have maybe two or three different scenarios as well.

Trevor Freeman 34:21

Yeah, and I think it's a, it's a great way to tackle that unknown component to where we've never really been through a change like this before. We've never wholesale changed the way we use energy in our society. So there's a degree of uncertainty, obviously, and I think, targeting out that kind of, let's call it high, medium, low scenario, or whatever the metric might be, is going to be really critical for us to make sure we're staying within the boundaries of what's possible and what's probable and refining that constantly as we move forward. So that's a great point. Something else you mentioned a little bit ago, that's, you know, could be a bit of a nebulous term is grid modernization now I've actually got a future episode, and specifically about grid modernization and what hydro Ottawa is doing, I think it might actually be our next one. So we don't need to go into all the details on this. But let's just help our listeners understand what do we mean when we're talking about grid modernization? And why is this important? Why is it important to our customers that we do this kind of back office improvement?

Teresa Sarkesian 35:23

So I'm going to keep it really simple, because I know you're going to do a deep dive on it and a future episode. But essentially, Grid Modernization are improvements that LDCs will make simply to augment our capabilities, and enable us to offer new or improved services to customers. So back office improvements might look like things like real time sensing, and monitoring systems to improve efficiency and reliability. Or we may be investing in new digital infrastructure communication systems to improve safety, cybersecurity, it can also include more visible improvements to safeguard our infrastructure against extreme weather, and climate change to reduce outages. And like one, I guess, example that some of your customers might already be recognizing, you know, we made investments in green button, which enables customers to download their data, send it to a third party if they want to save on customer use. So it really is the whole soup to nuts, it really is not just one type of technology or solution. It is a combination of a whole series of things that the that the utility will need to do. And I think why we want to do it, I think when we look at all of the pressures on the system, from NetZero objectives to housing priorities, you know, to accelerate broadband development, and support electrification, the pressures seems to be never ending. And the only way that we can respond to all those pressures, is to be grid ready. And, you know, like I said, it's it is a form of continuous improvement. It's just that now it's the pace accelerated pace is such so extraordinary, that we need to have a more dedicated plan. But most importantly, we have to make sure we have dedicated attention by policymakers and regulatory decision makers as well. Because right now, there isn't that dedicated attention to this very important task. Yeah,

Trevor Freeman 37:28

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great that you bring up all these pressures that we're feeling that it's I think it's time we kind of talk about that elephant in the room, our customers often ask us about affordability, or we're hearing from our customers about affordability, I was actually at a customer event not too long ago, and talking about the change that we're going to see here talking about some of this, you know, large scale transition of our of our energy sector. These are not small investments that we have to make. We're talking about both an increase of our infrastructure, you know, you mentioned almost doubling the capacity of the grid. We're talking about modernizing our grid systems, that's a lot of back office work with new technology, and bringing on new programs. Like this is a big change. Energy affordability is already a kind of a challenge today for some folks. So as we get into this new investment that we have to make as we start moving down the path of the energy transition, how do we balance affordability, especially for our vulnerable populations, with the level of investment that we know is necessary to do the things that we have to do? Yes,

Teresa Sarkesian 38:42

Yes, that's the multibillion-dollar question, Trevor. And it's something I'm going to carve out my response, because there's some things that we've put into our vision paper for the future, because affordability is absolutely critical. And as you know, this is basically a massive restructuring of the economy going forward. So, there's may be other participants who might be playing a funding role. So, you know, right now, obviously, you know, customers aren't monolithic, and you know, residential customers who are struggling to pay bills. Do you have some programs that they can, that they can access, they have the low income Energy Assistance Program, they have the Ontario electricity support program. Some of those are funded by the tax base, some are funded by other electricity customers. The province also gives a rebate to customers in Ontario, and that's a pretty big rebate. I don't think a lot of residential customers are aware of it but it is over 7 billion annually to residential small business customers. That's a lot of money. But I don't know if customers really appreciate that. So I don't know what's going to be available going forward. These are some of the challenges that you know policy makers, you know, have to address as well. So, when we were thinking about this as part of our paper, we sort of looked at it from a number of perspectives. So, the federal government has set up all these Net Zero targets, they've set out, you know, targets for electric vehicle manufacturing, as well. And so it might be appropriate for them to share part of the burden with this massive energy transformation. And it's interesting, we actually pulled customers about 2000 Customers two years ago, we asked them a whole series of questions about the changes going forward. And customers do have different perspectives about who should be paying for some of this energy transition. So when we asked them about who should be paying for electric vehicle, charging infrastructure, and they said, Oh, electricity, customers should pay for that, because that's something that everyone's going to benefit from. When we ask them about, you know, who should be paying for the electricity grid, to address climate change and hit Net Zero targets, they actually the majority, 58% said, the taxpayer should be paying for that. So I think that's just a very interesting data point. But it's something that, you know, we've been active on in terms of having those conversations with the federal government, saying that, you know, you have offered different subsidies to attract different companies to invest in Ontario, based on our clean grid, but we need to have the whole grid support it. So, you know, we're pursuing federal government support, we also are looking at increased maybe private equity engagement in in our sector. So right now, we have a couple of private members, but there's not a lot of private equity money in the sector, most of our members are municipally owned, and municipalities can't invest in their utility, probably even if they wanted to, because they're in short supply of funds as well, they have their own taxpayer that they have to deal with. So one of the solutions we are putting forward to government is to increase the private equity threshold, so it doesn't trigger additional taxes, right now, it's only 10% ownership. But we're saying that maybe a tool in the toolbox should be up to 49% ownership. So it would allow private equity to come the patient capital, they're not maybe looking to seek a return right away. So there's some you know, flexibility there as well. Another thing we're looking at is to revisit the debt equity ratios of utilities to manage the costs over the long term. So you'd be effectively amortizing on some of those grid investments as well. So these are some of the ideas that we have around how we can basically fund the energy transition going forward. You know, and some people say, Well, if you could get customers to think about their energy usage holistically, so if they're going to be, you know, moving away from a, you know, a combustion engine car, and they're going to be using heat pumps, instead of, you know, natural gas heating in their home, if you could get people to think holistically what they're saving on the kind of, you know, GHG side of things, versus what they are going to be spending on electricity, they may actually be spending less if they look at it holistically, but I don't really know, to be honest with you, so that I'd rather focus on the things that we could ask government for, as opposed to asking customers to be, you know, thinking more holistically at their entire energy usage, which is just not how they think. And I think, to change that behavior, would be quite a monumental task going forward. But those are some of the things that we think about, because we are very concerned about the affordability going forward, because it is such a massive change that we're all experiencing.

Trevor Freeman 43:50

Yeah, I think this is another example of there is no single solution here. There is no you know, silver bullet that's going to help us pay for all of this, we need all the tools on the table here, we need to look at all different options. And I think you outlined a couple of them, you know, in what you said about our customers impression of some of this change and who should pay for it. Last episode, I talked to David Coletto, from Abacus data, and he was saying on the whole Canadians really believe that a an electrified energy system, we know once we make that transition, we will be more secure, it will be more affordable. And I think those customers who have made some transition in their lives can see the benefit of that. But sometimes the initial hurdle is pretty hard to get over that upfront capital cost. And so looking for ways, both at the customer level as well as at the utility level, the LDC level I think is going to be important to help get over that initial capital outlay that's required, so that we can realize those benefits that we all know where they are that we know we'll see. So . Yeah, great filling some of those out. So I know I mentioned that I will get back to this. But I do want to talk to you about the advocacy role that the EDA plays. So you mentioned, you know, talking to governments and Ontario, the provincial governments across Canada, the provincial government has jurisdiction over most energy matters. So advocacy to the government is a key role that you play. I'm curious, what are you asking the government to do or to provide to help some of these changes that we're talking about happen? What is the advocacy that you're pushing for with the government.

Teresa Sarkesian 45:32

So I'm going to try to keep it really simple and just sort of, you know, tie it back to our vision paper for now, because at any given time, I'm working on 20 or 30 l policy issues, primarily with the Ontario government. But this past year, we have expanded our work to also include the federal government, because they have investment tax credits that we are interested in for our members to see if they could be eligible for those. We're interested in them changing things to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, also to provide new sources of equity there. And we're also pursuing grants, as well, for grid modernization. So provincially, a whole whack of issues. But I'm going to go back to our paper just to give your audience a little bit of a sneak peek on some of the things that we're going to be asking for. So one of the first things we're going to be asking for is to get a common understanding and definition of grid modernization, and electrification. And this is not really new of an idea, we kind of have copied it from the US, there's a lot of jurisdictions, there where very clear objectives that have been set out in order to justify grid modernization, investments. So we think that it'd be beneficial for Ontario to do that, because then once you have those objectives in place, it is going to make it a lot easier to be able to prioritize grid modernization capabilities, functionalities, and investments in line with those objectives. You know, and then from there, you know, we're looking at creating a series of foundational investments. So going forward, some of the things that we think are foundational, are things like the distributed energy resource management systems and the advanced metering infrastructure, which is sort of like smart meters 2.0, for lack of a better term, and also the advanced distribution management systems. So we see those are going to be foundational pieces that all utilities are going to need to be able to help customers interact with the grid, and they're going to be necessary grid investments. So how what we see for those is we would like it to be similar policy direction, like we had for smart meters and green button, where you have government mandated activities. And then those are given, you know, a kind of lower standard of evidence with the Ontario Energy Board to support that capital infrastructure, they're deemed as priorities and ties back to that initial plan, where you set objectives, as long as those objectives can be that then those should get a pass through.

Trevor Freeman 48:12

If I could jump in right there just for our listeners. So what Teresa is describing here is, at the moment when there are unique things that are not part of government mandate, yet every LDC and Ontario, of which there are many 60, something I don't even have the number in front of me but every LDC when it comes time to enact that project has to go through a whole exercise of justifying it proving why it's necessary, saying this is why we want to do it. If there was some commonality across LDCs in the province, we wouldn't have to put as much effort into, you know, the report writing side of it, we could just get down to business and make these changes that we all know across the province are important. So I think it's helpful for us to understand how that process works.

Teresa Sarkesian 49:00

Yeah, and thank you for interjecting on that, Trevor, because if government wants us to move fast, we can, but we need that certainty. So you know, we're no different than any even though we're regulated monopolies. We're really no different than any other business that wants to do business in Ontario, you're always looking for certainty and clarity, from legislation from policy from regulation, because the uncertainty is what slows things down. Another recommendation that I'm moving forward with is that we need to move beyond pilot projects. I had a conversation with a consultant who is working with Enercan on this and they want to move beyond I love their term, death by demonstration. We've got a couple of dozen pilot projects currently in the sector, whether they're funded provincially through the IESO or they're funded federally through Natural Resources Canada, and you know, there's some very exciting results that are coming out of those. But some of those pilot projects have been going on for all almost four years, in one case, almost five. And at some point you need to pull off the band aid said, Yes, this is a success, all LDCs would be eligible for funding in this. So we need to be able to scale it up. Or we just say no, that's not going to work. But being in this constant state of the pilot projects, while it's informative, at some point, someone has to have the courage to say we're moving forward, this is going to be scalable. Another recommendation we have is to create an action plan to develop a comprehensive human resource strategy to address quantity quality, and partnership aspects of the labor force going forward. There's some great work that electricity, Human Resources Canada has done. And, you know, DC 28,000, replacement and new jobs in our sector, by 2050 and that's, the electricity sector at large across Canada. And I did some, I think back of the envelope calculations to try to figure out, okay, some assumptions about distribution. And we're looking at close to 10,000 new positions in the sector, over the next 25 years. Every sector is having challenges, filling current jobs, never mind jobs, that we're not even sure what they are quite yet. So we don't necessarily have the right programs at the universities and colleges or private training institutions to start getting the right people and talent into our organization. And, you know, so we need help for that. And, you know, I am encouraged, I saw a little announcement out of the province yesterday to have more electricians down on the Chatham Kent area, because that's the whole greenhouse industry. And so I said, Okay, that's exciting. So people are starting to pay attention, but we need it more than just in one local community, it needs to be province wide. And, you know, like I mentioned before, we need to have more conversations about what the funding models are going to be to fund the energy transition. So these are some of the issues and recommendations that we're taking forward from our vision paper. But day to day, I guess that's the other thing, I want to mention in terms, the change I've seen, I've never seen us work on so many issues, prepare so many submissions, invest so many staff at various tables and working groups. And we love doing all that work. We love representing our members at every table of discussion possible, but I've never seen so many. And they're not just oh, you're there for a month, and you're done. Some of these they are multi year. So they have longer legs, because they are far more complex. But you know, we're working every day, you know, for members that way. Very, very proud to represent our sector think it's a fantastic sector. And the fact that they're going to play such a pivotal role in the future makes us only want to work harder to make sure we get the best of everything for our membership.

Trevor Freeman 52:54

Yeah, I know, we echo that at our level, we can certainly see a lot more stakeholdering and engagement happening with all players in the sector, but especially the government as they figure out this energy transition to right, let's not, you know, let's not forget that the government needs to figure out where policy needs to go to lead it, and it's a great role that you're playing to kind of bring the voice of the distributors to the government. Because again, as we've talked about a couple of times, we're really on the front lines, and we're hearing from our customers, and we're seeing what needs to change right at that customer level, in order to enable some of this stuff that's happening so that that conversation between the LDCs and the government I think is really important. So you know, we don't work in a vacuum, I just mentioned a number of stakeholders in our sector. And I highlighted the interconnected nature of our grid at the beginning of our conversation. There are a lot of different players working together to really, at the end goal is bring power to the customer. How do you see the existing model changing or expanding in terms of, you know, the kinds of partnerships that LDCs have moving forward? So you know, you mentioned private equity is being a potential upcoming role. There are things like technology companies that are developing innovative solutions, who, you know, we maybe were a bit more arm's length with in the past. There's a changing nature of our relationship with the customers, you brought up the idea of going from one way power flow to kind of two way back and forth. arrangement. How do you see that partnership evolving in the future?

Teresa Sarkesian 54:30

Well, I think the good news is, there's a very strong foundation knowledge to build on. So I'm going to talk about three different areas. I'm going to talk about sort of shared services across utilities, and I'll talk about a partnerships with the private industry. And I'd like to talk about the engagement with customers as well. So firstly, there's lots of shared services going around in the industry already. There's all kinds of partnerships that members are trying to reduce costs for customers and find the best solution. So instead of saying, having 60 utilities run, seek out the best solution, you know, you get everyone working collaboratively to find a solution at the best price for customers. So we've seen a lot, just in my 15 years I've been there you've got in the past, there was, you know, common delivery of conservation programs, members work together on common engineering standards, lots of mutual aid assistance agreements across among utilities, for Storm Recovery. I've seen shared billing services, bulk purchasing products, and shared control room practices and services. And I've seen private sector play a much bigger role in utilities, as well. I've had the privilege to attend some openings, and launches of micro grids, where you have maybe a solar company and an energy storage, battery company, that are part of that group with utility, creating a micro grid for their community to provide maybe warming and cooling charging services when there's a major outage, for example. And I've seen now, some smart grids, you know, one that's already been implemented up in the north that has a significant private sector partner. And I've seen it also there's a new one, that's another one in the north, that's going to be developed with a private sector partner. And I've seen, not just Ontario businesses, I've seen what businesses come in one of our members is doing a distribution system operator pilot model with a partner in from Norway. So I'm really encouraged, I think the foundation is already there to kind of build on all those successes we already have, and do more, you know, and we talked about the customers going forward as well, that they're going to be to help playing a role, or we hope they're going to be playing a role. Because there's a lot of energy, battery storage and solar generation, sort of behind the meter, whether it's a farm, or it's a residential customer, or it's a big industrial customer. And so we want to be able to optimize all of those resources into the system to be of benefit to all customers to reduce costs. But we'd have to give an incentive to those customers to participate, no one is going to let you know a utility access their, you know, solar panel generation or their battery storage, unless they're going to be getting paid to do so. And I think that's going to be really important going forward, because we don't want to over build the grid, I mean, the grid is going to be so big, going forward. And we have to find ways to avoid over building it. Because we don't want to be in a situation where you know, customers are having to pay too much for a grid that's not properly optimized. So trying to find solutions behind the meter, that will maybe either avoid or delay bigger generation investments or transmission investments, or even actually distribution investments, we want to optimize that. But right now, there's not really a lot of permission to do that. So we need to get that legislative and regulatory permission to do that, to turn those, you know, more passive customers into prosumers, that they're basically your their proactive customers by selling their energy storage back to the grid. So I'm really optimistic. I think we've got a great foundation work to do on the customer peace, letting them participate as prosumers and the system, but I'm pretty optimistic that that we can get that job done.

Trevor Freeman 58:27

Yeah, I think it really highlights, there's a lot to be excited about when it comes to the change, that's going to happen. There's a lot of opportunity out there both for the LDCs, for the other stakeholders for our customers, that this energy transition, this change is going to bring about, you know, there's some challenges to I know, he talked about the challenges. I wonder, though, what do you see, as you know, one of the single biggest are a series of risks to achieving the vision that you've outlined in the paper, how could this go off the rails and not happen the way we need it to happen?

Teresa Sarkesian 59:03

Well, I always like to be glass half full as opposed to half empty, but you're taking me down that road? Trevor? So I'm going to answer that question.

Trevor Freeman 59:11

It's my job.

Teresa Sarkesian 59:11

So you know, obviously, our vision for the future role is big, but it's practical. The energy transition is upon us now. It's not something to contemplate for the future. So we think that the biggest risk is effectively inaction or kind of, you know, kicking the issue down the road, 510 years. We're seeing this right, nearby jurisdictions in the US are taking action. There's been significant funding out of the Biden administration, for all kinds of initiatives from you know, cybersecurity, to grid modernization down there. They're doing they're very competitive. They want to attract businesses, to the US. And so, you know, that's a major competition for Ontario. So if we don't seize the opportunities to kind of start working on these important issues now, we could lose economic development opportunities, we could lose jobs, we could lose investment, we could lose our talent as well, that may want to move to another jurisdiction. So to mitigate that risk, the LDCs, and policymakers have to work together on developing a shared vision around electrification and grid modernization, develop a plan of action and create a realistic timeline to turn that vision into reality.

Trevor Freeman 1:00:26

Yeah, it's a it's a great point. And I think it's important for people to understand that change is happening, the change is going to happen, whether we want it to or not. And, you know, often sometimes people say, Are we are we really going to see this change? I think we're already seeing it, we're already seeing customers want to change the way they interact with energy. The risk here is if we don't react quick enough or properly enough, the costs of that change becomes higher the reliability of the grid that we're working with, goes down, that general customer experience is not where it needs to be. And then you've highlighted some other ones, you know, we can really struggle with talent if we're not offering them the kind of cool innovative roles that they're looking for. But the neighboring jurisdiction is, so it's not so much that the change may or may not happen, it's how do we react to it in a way that really serves all of our stakeholder the best. So, Teresa, this has been a really great conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and chat with us today. I think there's a number of things that we talked about today that really set up future conversations I'm going to have nicely. So thanks for the half for teeing that up. And this is your second time on the show. No doubt, there'll be a third time because I think there's a lot more that down the road, we can we can pick apart. So thanks for that. We typically end our interviews here with some common questions to all our guests. So to start off, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:01:56

So one I recently enjoyed it's by a friend too. By Darrell Bricker, he wrote Empty Planet, and that is very, very good talks about actually declining global population. And what that means from everything from, you know, businesses to climate change to pension plans. So it's a fascinating read. People have time for it.

Trevor Freeman 1:02:19

Yeah, very cool. I'll check that out. So kind of the same question. What's a movie or a show that you'd recommend to everybody?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:02:24

I watched one a few months ago was a Netflix series called the Blue Zone. And it was an investigation on people who had made it to 100 I think they called Central Jamarion’s I can't remember the name. But basically, they interviewed all these people living around the world about what it takes to get to be 100. So I really enjoyed it. It was just, it was just very beautifully done. And the people they talked to, I found fascinating and so interesting. So I really enjoyed it.

Trevor Freeman 1:02:52

Yeah, I also watched that one that was really great. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:00

Well, I couldn't pick just one place, Trevor. So maybe I could like, have like around the world trip. But Sydney and Tokyo are places I really want to go to

Trevor Freeman 1:03:09

Have you been there before?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:11

No, no, but I think they look like places. Totally,

Trevor Freeman 1:03:16

Totally. Who is someone that you admire?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:18

for years it has been Terry Fox, great. My kids are in a big, I don't want to say Terry Fox phase, but they obviously they learn about Terry Fox a lot at school. And so they often will come home talking about Terry Fox, and we've got a little book that we read about, you know, the story.

That's fantastic that he really is an exemplary Canadian. And if he can only know today, what he has achieved, you know, even though his it wasn't able to make his run across the country, because unfortunately, he passed I think he'd be blown away by the fact that people have kept the memory going. And you even talking about your kids, you know, obviously doing things to support his memory, and his initiatives. And he's just extraordinary to me.

Trevor Freeman 1:04:04

Now, there's definitely a lesson there. And we don't always know the impact that we are having. And we may never know the impact that we're having. long as we're kind of aiming at the right things. Good things will happen. So finally, to wrap it all up, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:23

Firstly, excited about everything. But if I had to sort of pick one, I am very excited about the potential for customers to be pro sellers and engage with the with the energy system. I think that could be absolutely transformative going forward. So I'm excited. And I hope to see that before I retire, that's for sure.

Trevor Freeman 1:04:45

For sure. I mean, I think there's no question. We're going to see lots of change, as we've talked about a lot today. And I'm excited about that, too. So that's great. Teresa, thank you again for coming on the show. I really appreciate it and it's been great chatting.

Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:57

Likewise, thanks so much, Trevor. Really enjoyed Our time together.

Trevor Freeman 1:05:00

Right Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of he thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenerg@hydroottawa.com

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HYDRO_ThinkEnergy_Aug5_Audio

Wed, Jul 31, 2024 1:07PM • 30:42

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

energy, canada, side, country, council, utility, ultimately, philip, big, clean energy, single, transition, challenge, governments, perspective, climate, decarbonize, involved, work, electricity

SPEAKERS

Trevor Freeman, Dan Seguin, Philippe Dunsky

Trevor Freeman 00:00

Everyone, well, it's officially summer and the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next two months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip, or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair Dan Seguin as well as a couple of mine from the past few months. And you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well. Wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer and we'll be back with new content in September. And until then, happy listening.

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Right now, there are scientists, entrepreneurs, policymakers, indigenous and industry leaders, helping to shape the direction that Canada will take to accelerate a transition to clean energy. Everywhere you look, whether it's academia, municipal, provincial, or federal governments, there's another council or committee being formed to address the most pressing issues of our time, climate change, from transitioning to sustainable energy sources, electrifying transportation, and improving energy efficiency to protecting our natural environment and reducing carbon emissions. One thing is for certain our country is embracing the renewable revolution, like never before. But those with seats at the decision table know that it must be done responsibly, and affordable. As we know, every region of Canada is unique and presents its own set of challenges and opportunities when it comes to tackling climate change, and ways to implement clean energy. So here is today's big question. How did we get such a vast and diverse country like Canada to agree on a pathway forward to a cleaner, greener and more sustainable energy future? Joining us today is Philippe Dunsky of Dunsky Energy and Climate Advisors, a consultancy firm that Philippe founded. It supports government, utilities, corporations across North America to accelerate their transition to clean energy. Phillippe, is the co chair of Canada's new Canada electricity Advisory Council, the co chair of efficiency Canada, and the director of the greater Montreal Climate Fund. He also previously chaired the Quebec government electrification Working Group. Welcome to the show, Philippe. Let's start by asking you this. Having just gone over some of your accomplishments, where does this passion for clean energy and climate come from? Where did it start?

Philippe Dunsky 02:44

So, so great to be here. By the way, thank you so much for having me. It started, I guess, I guess very early on. I'm Jewish background and grew up with, you know, endless stories about the Holocaust. And somehow that kind of morphed into just a general interest for world affairs and for big challenges, big societal challenges. And then as I was growing up, those became really focused on environmental issues. So that was the genesis. I became very, very interested in environmental issues. And then through that, and climate change in particular, as probably the greatest challenge of my generation, and for my generation. And then, I guess the other thing is, I've come to discover that I'm a pretty analytical guy. So I'm not a no great protester, I'm not a great to great movement leader, I tend to see a lot of gray, not so much black and white. And so that's how I ended up deciding to get involved in these issues. But, you know, in my own way through more of an analytical lens,

Dan Seguin 03:55

Okay, you've served and are serving on numerous councils, committees and boards. Can you tell us what has been the biggest takeaway you've learned through each collaboration? And how has it changed you?

Philippe Dunsky 04:11

Yeah, because each one does change you and changes your perspectives. Because ultimately, the biggest takeaway is that no matter how much I think I know this stuff and know this stuff. Well, and I've been working on energy issues for over 30 years now. And so, you know, I always end up thinking that I know the answer. What we discover is that, you know, there's not a single answer, there are many perspectives. And if you can combine knowledge with multiple perspectives, then you can come up with something that's hopefully going to be closer to that, you know, to that truth, or whatever you want to call it. My big learning is that every time you go into something like this, you go in with an open mind and an open heart. And if you do that, and you're listening to others perspectives, then you're bound to land on something that's a hell of a lot smarter. And then what you initially thought coming into it?

Dan Seguin 05:02

Okay, cool. Now, you were appointed chair for a recently formed Canada electricity Advisory Council. Can you tell our listeners who's on it? What is the mandate? And just how big of an undertaking is this?

Philippe Dunsky 05:19

Sure, I can start with the last question, by the way, that the undertaking, it's a really big issue, it's a really big challenge. On the other hand, the undertaking itself is time limited, it's a 12 month thing. So I'm a pumpkin and I turned into a pumpkin in May. It's been five months now. So I got another seven to go. From that perspective, that's the timing that we're looking at. Okay, Council itself is a group of 18 Canadians from across the country, every single, every single province, no exception. It's, it's extraordinary mix of individuals with an extraordinary mix of experience and perspective. So I'd say roughly half of council members are either current or former utility executives. The other half is a bit more of an eclectic mix of former regulators, we have people involved in the power production side of things, we have first nations leaders, so indigenous leaders, and a couple of others with different perspectives to bring to the table. But the really important thing here, I think, is that you're looking at the leadership level from every single province across the country. And that makes for really, really enlightening and challenging conversations as well. And then I guess you asked about the purpose or the mandate of the council. So I'll put it at a very, very fundamental level as a country, we're trying to largely decarbonize electricity by sometime in the middle of the 2030s. And we're looking to grow electricity, very substantially to decarbonize the rest of the economy. By 2050. That's that dual set of goals is at the heart of our mandate. And our mandate is to figure out what the feds can and must do. And at the same time, what can and must be done by others in the country, to help make this an easier journey, a more affordable journey. And ultimately, a more successful journey on the way there.

Dan Seguin 07:22

Okay, great segue here. Now, with respect to Canada's goal to achieve a 100%, Net Zero electricity system by 2035, you stated, "Is it better to optimize than maximize? Can you maybe break that down for us? And can you give us some examples?

Philippe Dunsky 07:41

Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, what I mean by that is, if all we do is say we want to decarbonize, there are many, many paths to do that. And, you know, we can say, hey, we're gonna, we're just gonna build, build, build, build, build until there's no tomorrow. And we could probably get there, doing nothing but that, but we'll get there in a less affordable way, than if we really think through the intricacies of what needs to be done. Yes, on adding, also on subtracting, so actually becoming more efficient in the way we use energy, relying more on consumers' involvement in the marketplace to achieve some of those goals. I just think there are quick ways to get to the goal, that ultimately, are going to cost too much and or create reliability issues. And if that happens, there'll be a backlash. And we'll never get to the goal. Alternatively, there, they're thoughtful ways that maybe aren't exactly the way we've always done things in the past, but that involve a lot more complexity and being able to wrestle with complexity and stuff. But ways that are focused on keeping this as affordable as possible, ultimately, for everyone across Canada, making sure that we do this in a way that's reliable, so we can always count on electricity being there. And in doing it in a way that actually involves some cooperation, as well.

Dan Seguin 09:04

So the electricity Council fulfills the minister's mandate to establish a pan Canadian grid Council. How viable is a pan Canadian electricity grid? Or are you seeing your movement in regional interconnections?

Philippe Dunsky 09:22

Yeah, so it definitely looks regional. Let me be really clear about that. And I know the original Originally, the name for the council was supposed to be the pan Canadian grid Council, as you pointed out, you'll also notice it, it was not it does not have that name. And there's a reason for that. And, and I will say, you know, and I've said this publicly many times, I don't believe that that's the right answer. We definitely need a lot more cooperation. at the regional level. There are a lot of opportunities for provinces to exchange more to continue exchanging with the US by the way, and this isn't, you know, we're not caught within, within our borders. So we have to do more on the cooperation side to keep costs down again, as low as possible to make this as smart and thoughtful and as achievable as possible. But that doesn't involve, you know, I love the old Coast to Coast Railway analogy. It's nice, it's working for railways. We're not talking about a single grid that goes coast to coast that's just not in the cards.

Dan Seguin 10:28

Now, for those who are not aware, can you tell us about your firm, its purpose, and what makes your approach unique, and particularly effective?

Philippe Dunsky 10:40

Sure, I mean, I'm thrilled talking about my firm. So these days, I spend so much time talking about look Council, which is kind of like my evenings and nighttime job, or evenings and weekend job. But my day job is running my firm, my firm is a group of over 50 professionals. Now, I think we're about 55 now that are dedicated exclusively to supporting clients in their clean energy transitions. And our clients typically are utilities and governments, increasingly large corporate clients as well, across Canada and across the US. So ultimately we work with utilities and governments that are in the throes of this energy transition, that are trying to figure it out. They're trying to find a way to help their customers navigate through it and a way for themselves to navigate through it, to define what the business case is for them and what their proper role is in it. And, and then we also have helped them in some of the nitty gritty. So, you know do you get customers involved on the demand side management side to reduce the pressure on right on the big build out? And all the capital is involved there? You know, what do we need to do to electrify vehicles, for example. So we've developed for some places, charging, charging infrastructure plans and charging infrastructure, business, business plans, strategies, investment plans, we work with, with our, with our customers in helping helping to decarbonize buildings through whether it's direct electrification, or hybrid heating systems without just the natural gas, depending on the on the need, we work with to decarbonize industrial loads, as well. And oftentimes, we're working with our utility customers to help them help their industrial customers decarbonize. So all of those things, and more and of course, planning out the whole transformation of the electricity system on the supply side, is a big part of it. That's a lot of what we do. It's hard to put in a single sentence. But the interesting thing, I guess, for us is, you know, ultimately, we're a consulting shop that is exclusively focused on the clean energy transition, we do nothing other than that. And, and I think that makes us pretty darn good at it.

Dan Seguin 13:02

That's perfect. Phillippe, your company emphasizes support in four focus areas, buildings, mobility, Industry and Energy. How were those identified? And can you maybe provide some specific projects or initiatives that have made a significant difference in the sector's?

Philippe Dunsky 13:25

Yeah, sure. And those sectors are, you know, 80 to 90%, of the energy equation, right. So they've grown over time, in a very deliberate manner, we started out working on the building side of the equation. So you know, what we call DSM or in Ontario, you call it CDM. Just to be different. But so we started out working on that. And then over time, we added mobility, especially electric mobility to our portfolio of expertise, and then built out from there, including on the generation and TND side, in terms of some examples. I mean, I'll be honest with you, we do well over 100 projects a year now. So there are a lot of different ones with a pretty large variety. But for example, I actually just came back from meeting with one of our clients, a large, large electric utility, where we've helped them to revamp their whole CDM approach. So that's, you know, from top to bottom, on the strategy side, on the regulatory side, and then on what the programs actually look like and how they operate and who they involve. In Ontario, we actually completed something I think is absolutely fascinating. I really enjoyed reading it. And that was a study of the potential of Drs. So distributed energy resources in Ontario to essentially keep the lights on, you know, we found 1000s of megawatts of exploitable resources there that you don't need to build because they're already there on the customer side of the meter. So stuff like that. We've worked with a lot of states in the US including California and New York designing, designing measure is to help their customers finance, the transition on their side, we've done a lot of work with, with utility executives helping them think through the strategy side of this, how am I going to actually the change management? How may I change my own utility to go from what it was in that steady state environment of the past 75 years to something that is a completely different beast in a very much more dynamic world. And it's focused on customer service and, and focused on transitioning the energy system as a whole. So, again, a pretty broad array of, of projects, but all of them. Absolutely. Absolutely exciting. And, and fascinating for me to be involved in and learn from.

Dan Seguin 15:45

Okay, now, wondering if you can speak to the importance of responsible and sustainable practices in the clean energy sector? And how has your company prioritized these principles in his work?

Philippe Dunsky 16:00

Yeah, sure. I mean, I mean, look, the world right now is looking to the energy sector to lead and to transform itself. And as we do that, you know, leaders have to have to walk the talk. So, you know, I'm, I'm very proud that most, if not all of my clients are doing that right now within their own operations. And my firm does that in our operations. I try to do that, in my own life, I've been driving nav for seven years. Now, it's a great way for me to, to, to lead by example, but also, quite frankly, to get a head and on the experience curve, and actually understand from personal experience, all right, what are the challenges of of EV ownership and what needs to happen to make it a more seamless process? So you know, that's on the personal side, my company, we're actually a B Corp. So we went through a process to be certified by an independent organization that looks at all of our practices, from soup to nuts. And in our score, our B Corp score has increased. Year over year, I think we started out somewhere about 80 Something points, and now we're at 119. So you know, it's just a process of continuous improvement, just like, just like all of our clients have to have to do.

Dan Seguin 17:12

Okay, cool. Now, we all know, there's always more every country can be doing to combat climate change. But it's complex. In your opinion, Philippe, how does Canada compare? Is it on the right track, and focusing its effort on the right initiatives?

Philippe Dunsky 17:34

Yeah, I think it's, I think Canada is, is definitely moving in the right direction. I think there have been a lot of very important policies brought forward over the past several years that I think, bring us forward. Are they all done exactly the way I would like them to be done? No, if I had a magic wand, would I do it a little bit differently? Probably, but directionally there. Actually, I think we're heading there. You know, that being said, it's a long and winding road. Right. And it will be for the next decade. So there will be setbacks, and there will be things that we're doing that are suboptimal. And that's a little bit part of life. So my job and the role I've kind of given myself and my firm is to help make that path as straight and narrow as it reasonably can be. But you know, recognizing that this is a big learning process and, and mistakes you're gonna make for sure.

Dan Seguin 18:31

Now, Philippe, what are some of the biggest challenges or even threats to achieving a clean energy future in the timeline set out by scientists and the government? How is your company positioned to address them?

Philippe Dunsky 18:46

The biggest challenges and threats and I'll decouple those questions, okay. Because I think that, from my perspective, there are enormous challenges. There's first and foremost, a challenge of time, right? Because what we're talking about if we're talking about, you know, getting to net zero or something like it by 2050. I mean, that's a single generation. So we're talking about literally transforming the backbone of modern economies in a single generation. That is, number one, because frankly, that's never been done before. We've done it within sectors, right, we've done we went from, from horse drawn carriages, to to you know, horseless horseless carriages. And you know, we've, we dumped manufacturer, gas and went, went to natural gas, and we've done individual changes like that before. We've never done all at the same time dealing with that and getting it done. The single generation is a race. And so I do think that time is probably the number one challenge number two challenge. And, you know, if you really take a take a step back here and think about what we're talking about it, it's largely from an economic standpoint, we're largely moving from optics to capex, and there's we're largely it moving from a context where whether it's utilities, or business owners or homeowners, today, we pay our bills, you know, we're buying fossil fuels, right, we're buying and burning the energy that we consume. And so that's an OP X thing. Now, what we're talking about is increasingly stuff, that's just all capital, if you think of, you know, going from a gas plant to, let's say, a wind farm, a wind farm is, you know, it's once and done all of the entire cost for next 20 years, or 95% of it goes in the ground on day one, that's moving objects to capex, it's a really big change. If you're thinking of it from a homeowner perspective, we're talking about, let's say, take my example, you know, I bought an Eevee, my Eevee cost a lot more than that my previous gas car did. On the other hand, I'm paying a hell of a lot less to keep it up to optics to capex. So there's a real challenge around getting enough capital for all this to happen, whether it's for large utilities or down to an individual homeowner or car owner, I think that's a real big challenge that we have a couple more, maybe I'll, maybe I'll stop there. And then the things that my firm is doing to address those, I mean, look, like I said before, on the timeline side, everything we're trying to do is just minimize errors, we're not gonna eliminate them, but minimize errors. So that that line between here and there can be as straight as possible, and as least painful as possible on the capital side, that's a very specific thing. But we actually do a lot of work developing innovative financing mechanisms that utilities and governments can offer to homeowners and business owners, to allow them to have access to the capital that they need, as they tried to save money on the operation side. So those are, those are a couple of them, anyhow.

Dan Seguin 21:57

Okay, Philippe, what do you want Canadians to know about the country's transition to clean energy that they might not already know or be aware of?

Philippe Dunsky 22:10

You know, I think, I think everyone is aware that this energy transition is really big, and it's gonna be really hard. Maybe the one thing I'll add on to it is, there's a lot of benefit on the other side of this. So a lot of benefit, you know, what we're talking about ultimately, is, is transformative in nature, it's the sort of thing that's happened. I'm thinking outside of the energy sector, but just holistically, these kinds of changes have happened a few times in the past 100 years or so. And they tend to always be ultimately about moral leadership to start. And so I think we need to think of this, first and foremost from the perspective of moral leadership, which is something that is one of the reasons why Canada has such a great, strong brand around the world, because we punch above our weight on the great moral issues of the times. And that was true when we went to help out Europe during World War Two, and that was that true. And we went Mulrooney led the boycott of South Africa under apartheid. I mean, we've stood up when we've needed to, that has positioned this country internationally in a way that I don't I'm not sure that we fully measure. This is one of those times. And so being at the forefront of this, I think is extraordinarily important for our country as a whole. That being said, there's also some really economic benefits at the end of this and flip it on its head to there's some real economic costs and risks if we don't do this, and if we don't get it right, well, one thing, one thing I'll point to, I remember about 10 years ago, being in conversations with some provincial governments about the possibility of governments eventually taxing imports of our products, if they're too carbon intensive, and the idea sounded a bit crazy back then we're recording this today on October 30 29 days ago, on October 1, Europe's carbon border adjustment mechanism came into effect for the first time. And that is effectively going to tax import of products from everywhere around the world based on their carbon content. So if we get ahead of this fast, if we succeed in this, if we lower our carbon content of what we produce, we've got a hell of a nice economic advantage at the end of it.

Dan Seguin 24:33

Now, what advice would you give to an aspiring entrepreneur or those looking to make a positive impact in the clean energy and climate sectors?

Philippe Dunsky 24:48

You know, my advice is it's gonna sound a little wishy washy, but it's just figuring out what you're great at. You know, everyone's great at something different so I have a hard time. I'm providing really concrete advice to people I don't know personally, but everyone's got their magic. Everyone's got their special exceptionalism. I think it's important to know who you are, know what you really like to do know where you excel, and then whatever that is, to the extent that you can bring that to service of a greater cause, whether it's climate, whether it's portability, whatever it is, I think that's just a beautiful thing. So I encourage everyone to ultimately lead a purpose driven life and, and lean on their own strengths wherever they may be.

Dan Seguin 25:35

Okay, that's fair. Lastly, Philippe, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Maybe. Okay, here we go. What are you reading right now?

Philippe Dunsky 25:51

Right now I'm actually sounding nerdy but I'm actually reading the CIA's 2030. Outlook, the latest 2030 outlook by the International Energy Agency. Absolutely fascinating read. If you're a nerd, like I am about energy.

Dan Seguin 26:04

Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?

Philippe Dunsky 26:10

My boat? My boat is a canoe. And what would I name my canoe? I'm not sure. Maybe I named it the Power Canoe. One of the reasons I love canoes, by the way, is they're probably the most efficient way of getting from point A to point B on water. So I'm a big fan of energy efficiency and, and a canoe is just that.

Dan Seguin 26:31

Who is someone that you truly admire Philippe?

Philippe Dunsky 26:35

Oh, goodness, I admire so many people, I couldn't come up with a single name there. You know, I work with a lot of leaders who dedicate their time and energy and excellence to, for public purposes. And every single one of those I'm in deep admiration of, I'll maybe add one other group, the folks I work with here in my firm. I've never known a group of people as dedicated and passionate and smart and curious. As they are, they do inspire me.

Dan Seguin 27:05

Good, good. Okay. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Philippe Dunsky 27:10

I'm from Quebec. So I'm a big fan of the circus, the modern circus, whether it's Cirque du Soleil, Cirque Éloize or les Sédois de la mayenne, they always amaze me and I'll always leave me spellbound.

Dan Seguin 27:24

Okay, next, as a result of the pandemic. Many of us are guilty of watching a lot of Netflix or other streaming platforms. What's your favorite movie or show?

Philippe Dunsky 27:38

You know what, I watched many different Netflix shows. These days. I'm just trying to think what's in bridgerton would be one of them right now. I'm really enjoying it.

Dan Seguin 27:52

Now, lastly, Philippe, what's exciting you about your industry right now?

Philippe Dunsky 27:58

What's exciting is the same thing that's exhausting me. And that's the pace of change. It's just an extraordinary time right now. And I'll tell you what's really exciting me is that five years ago, because this is all I do. Right? I'm a one trick pony. So I think about this every day. Five years ago, I felt pretty alone in seeing and understanding the pace of change that we needed today. I feel like pretty much every leader I speak with is very clear eyed about how big this is, how fast it's gotta go, the challenge that it represents, and the near the you know, the knowledge that we need to get going and get going in a big way. So that excites me.

Dan Seguin 28:37

Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?

Philippe Dunsky 28:44

Well, my organization's website is very simple. Dunsky.com. That's probably the easiest, easiest way. And if you want to connect with me, try info@dunsky.com or my own email. The simplest email in the world is philippe@dunsky.com.

Dan Seguin 29:05

Well, Philippe, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Philippe Dunsky 29:15

It was fun. Thank you. I love your questions.

Dan Seguin 29:18

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests from previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Summer rewind: What role do communicators play in motivating change? Specifically, how can they move their audiences to take action against climate change? In thinkenergy episode 122, we delve into the world of climate communication with Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re.Climate. Explore the driving forces, opportunities, and challenges of inspiring climate action—from bridging research to practise to empowering change. Listen in for an insightful conversation on shaping a sustainable future.

Related links

• Amber Bennet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abennettyyc/
• Re.Climate: https://reclimate.ca/
• Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: https://www.ipcc.ch/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-8b612114/

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Transcript

Trevor Freemon

Everyone, well, it's officially summer. And it's been about four months since I took over the mic as the host of the think energy podcast, which is kind of hard to believe. It's been really fun having great conversations with great people in the energy sector. I now mostly know my way around the recording equipments and the software, and really feel like we're kind of just getting started and looking forward to where we go from here. That said, the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next few months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip, or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair Dan second, as well as a couple of mine from the past few months. And you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well, wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer and we'll be back with new content in September. And until then, happy listening.

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you scroll through the news this morning? How many of those articles that you skim covered a topic related to climate change? I guess it was probably a few. It seems. Every couple of weeks there's a new story dominating the headlines about forest fires, hurricanes, floods, heatwaves, and more, both here in Canada and abroad. We are seeing firsthand the effects of climate change and As consumers, we are receiving information about it. Everywhere we look. Have you ever thought about how you are being communicated to? How is climate change presented? What wording was used? And why? And are their calls to action? How does it make you feel? think not only about news articles you read, but also about documentaries, podcasts, Hollywood movies, right down to your everyday life. Think about the newsletter you receive from your municipality. The assembly instruction on the last piece of furniture you purchase, or this section on your favorite clothing brand, website about their sustainable practice, communications surrounding climate change are pretty much everywhere and the need to be. In June of 2021, the Canadian government introduced the Canadian net zero emission Accountability Act, which puts into legislation Canada's commitment to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. Different companies across the country are making their commitment, much like we did in 2022, when we committed to leading the way to a Smart Energy Future by becoming net zero by 2030. The push on to stop the damaging pollution emitted into the environment on a daily basis, namely caused by burning fossil fuels. Scientists are urging that this is crunch time. So if you haven't already, now is the time to hone in on how and what you are communicating to your customers. So here is today's big question. What role do communicators play in motivating change within their audiences to take action against climate change? Our guest today is Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re Climate, Canada's first climate communications and Engagement Center. This new organization launched in 2022 brings together Canada's leading climate communication academics and practitioners, and aims to help communicators create strategies that inspire the public to support climate action. Amber is one of Canada's top climate communication strategists and capacity builder who works with groups across the country bridging gaps between research and practice. She led the groundbreaking Alberta narrative project and supported much of the foundational work to pilot and build reclaim it. Amber, thank you for joining us today.

Amber Bennett 03:54

Thank you for having me.

Dan Seguin 03:56

Amber, maybe you can start by telling us a bit about yourself and Re Climate How did you get into climate communications? How did Re Climate come to be and what does it aim to achieve?

Amber Bennett 04:09

Okay, I'll try to hold all of those questions at once. Well, I am based in Calgary, Alberta, which may seem like an unlikely place for some for the executive director of a Canadian organization or Canadian center focused on climate communications and engagement at Carleton University. But that's where I live with my family. And what to say? Yeah, I mean, I think I've been circling around climate communications for a very, very long time. You know, the the mind has a funny way of making sense of things in retrospect, but I started with a Bachelor of Science and then I moved on to a public relations degree and then I worked with the mayor of Calgary on the one of the I forget which numbered cop, but it was a Copenhagen. And I think that was really the first time I began to think about what, what is climate change and had a certain kind of exposure to the, to the, you know what the challenge was and what not. And when I saw I kind of went on, and I did a master's degree. And it was when I had needed to choose a topic for my master's degree when there was the catastrophic flooding here in Calgary. And there is this, like, amazing paradox where the, you know, Calgary Stampede, which is the epitome, I would say, of the, you know, kind of old boys club. And when that happened, when the floods happened, their motto was come hell or high water come hell or high water, they were going to, you know, produce the show. And at the same time, one of the readings I was doing as a part of my master's program was also titled come hell or high water. And it was really about the science of climate change, and why it is making it so difficult. Why is it so difficult for humans to kind of wrap our heads around it. So fast forward, I completed a master's, and then did a series of really interesting projects. I did some work with a group out of the UK called Climate outreach, which is focused on climate communications and engagement as well. And then started working with a group of people here in Canada to set up a similar center or similar organization that would focus on supporting climate communicators, helping to kind of bring together the research that was happening, as well as the practice. And so that's really why Re Climate it is set up to do, we're really dedicated towards advancing the practice of climate communications and engagement through research, training, offering resources, pulling resources together, strategy, and developing strategy with other types of practitioners, as well as convening networks of both scholars, as well as those people who are kind of out there in the real world doing campaigning and advocacy work and trying to, you know, communicate with citizens and whatnot. So, that's kind of where we're at.

Dan Seguin 07:34

Now, Amber, it sounds like Re Climate, is a very diversified organization that brings together experts in social science, Public Affairs, and science. What kind of professionals work together in this environment? And what does it each bring to the table?

Amber Bennett 07:55

Love this question. So Re Climate brings together I think I've said it research and practice. And so you have those practitioners who may be doing public engagement campaigns, they may be working for utilities, they may be working in local governments or other kinds of government, they might also be working in advocacy organizations. And so they often don't have the time, or I would argue the luxury of going into, you know, latest academic journals, or even, you know, kind of other thought leaders who are publishing in the field. Why? Because they're busy, they're doing the work. And so, you know, that kind of takes a lot of time to kind of go in and look at the research, track it down, make sense of it? They're also, I would argue, very few who have the time to do an evaluation, like after they've done something, what did we learn from it? You know, What, did we make a difference? You know, what kind of impact are we having, and similarly, just getting together with other folks, right, and talking about it and sharing what they're learning. So that's kind of on the practitioner's side. And so, you know, when we say we bring or convene networks of people together, we're really trying to do that, you know, we're trying to provide resources, synthesize, you know, research, both, perhaps, you know, it's public polling, or maybe it's social science, you know, what's happening in in, that's relevant, but also bringing people together to share with each other and learn with each other. So that's kind of that practitioner side. And, you know, there's also, I would say, sometimes a culture where people feel like they're competing with each other, you know, certainly within the charitable sector. So kind of, I think, for those folks who are coming in, who are kind of in the field, having that support and someone who's doing In the work on their behalf to kind of make sense of synthesize, pull it in together like yours, your five tips here, the things you need to do. That's extremely helpful. And then on the flip side, I think for researchers, you know, they're, they're kind of passionate, there's a reason why they're there thinking or trying to understand, you know, how to better engage people, or what's the right framing, or what are the values or whatever it is, because they're passionate about it. So by being able to kind of bridge from the practitioner world into a more academic or into a research field, we're able to just give people real world challenges. It's like, here's why practitioners are actually struggling with, you're an expert in this, please talk to us about it, or please, you know, this is the kind of information that they need. So, you know, kind of the practitioners, I would say, Bring the complexity of the real world, right, that we're dealing with real people, resource constraints, you know, various kinds of issues and whatnot, whereas researchers bring the kind of precision of being able to look at something with a whole body of understanding behind them to be able to kind of see, well, here's what may be operating within this situation, here's what we know about it. And here are some other kinds of interventions or approaches that we might be able to take. I don't know if that exactly answers your question. Maybe the scientists part, I would say they bring the public trust. Right. So whenever we're polling, you know, consistently, scientists come up on top as having high levels of public trust on climate and energy transition. And so I think that they bring that kind of authenticity. And, you know, they're not there, they're often unpolitical, right? They're not seem to be benefiting, you know, personally from talking about it. So they're really effective messengers.

Dan Seguin 11:57

Wondering if you can share some insight into what the average Canadian's knowledge on climate change is? How much do they know about the main causes and the path forward?

Amber Bennett 12:14

Well, I would say that Canadians probably know a lot about climate change. But what we measure, it's a little bit different. So when, and I would encourage folks to take a look at some of the reports that we have published on ReClimate.ca The one that I'm, you know, I kind of go back to was published this year, or maybe it was last year. But within these reports, we basically look across 65, or more, either private or publicly available surveys, or public polls or whatnot, and we kind of do it a roll up of okay, so it's not just one survey that has said, this is multiple surveys that are showing kind of trends and themes in in where the Canadian beliefs or attitudes or or mindsets are. So when you do that, and when we looked across, you know, 65, or so what you can see is, is that, even though you have the majority of Canadians that would say yes, climate change is real, and it is happening, almost half of them attribute both natural and manmade causes, you know, attribute the cause of climate change due to natural causes as well as as manmade. And so why is that important, is because when we get into the conversations around solutions, then without the kind of foundational understanding that burning fossil fuels creates pollution, which creates a heat trapping blanket, which is heating our planet, and causing all of these extreme weather events and natural disasters that we're seeing. Without that kind of clear understanding that burning fossil fuels is the cause of climate change. And when you get into the solutions, and what people actually have to do about it, the conversations a bit more, there's a lot of confusion, or there's a lot of room for confusion, which is kind of what we're seeing and I can talk a little bit more about that. So you know, I spend a lot of time in focus groups, and this kind of conversation comes up. So when we talk about solutions in the path forward, you talk about climate change, and you start to have discussions around what you are doing, you know, recycling will often come up, plastics will often come up. There's a whole kind of suite of things that people are doing, but very few people are able to name a particular policy or real intervention that you know, that will address some of the root causes. And we people on this podcast may not be like, Hey, why really. But you know, there are a lot of different people and for many climate change, even though they may be living within the impacts are the, you know, experiencing in their daily lives, they have many other kinds of concerns and priorities that are happening at the same time. So what I would say is that Canadians believe that climate change is happening, there is at least half that are uncertain, or would attribute it to both natural causes, and manmade causes. This kind of understanding of burning fossil fuels, the trapping blanket, you know, that's not well understood by many. And so they're kind of subsequently stopping burning fossil fuels, as a path forward isn't clear, as it could be, or, or should be at this point in time. And maybe the other thing I if you, if you'll let me, the other thing I would say is, is that, you know, Canadians consistently report, when you ask them very high levels of concern about climate change, right? Most people can see forest fires, you know, that's how we are making sense of what climate changes. It is through these kinds of experiences, either directly, or our experiences of seeing, you know, extreme weather and natural disasters. So people are expressing very high levels of concern. But if you ask, unprompted, what are you know, what are the issues that you're most concerned about? It often will address climate change as mentioned Much, much farther down on the list. Right. So, affordability and access to health care, cost of living, housing, there are many other issues that people are faced with and dealing with in their day to day lives.

Dan Seguin 17:18

Okay, see the term movable middle mentioned in reports and on the reclaimed site, what is the movable middle? And why is it so important?

Amber Bennett 17:34

Great question. And I feel compelled to say that I think that term movable metal is used differently by different people. I think within the context of, you know, the work that we do, it kind of comes out of, you know, some of the themes that I was talking about in the last in in the last question or last answer. It's this idea that, you know, people are kind of undecided. Or they're conflicted about an issue. So they could move either one way or the other, but they're not at the moment. oppositional? Right. So if you think about, you know, a broader population, there is a segment, you know, of Canadians, whose identities are really built around the idea that they don't believe in climate change. They're not going to support, you know, climate action and whatnot. There's also on the other side, a whole group of Canadians whose identity is built around me. I'm a climate activist, and I'm a climate advocate. And you know, and I'm an environmentalist, and so they're on the other side, but most of us just kind of live in the middle. Some are more well informed than others. But for the most part, people are concerned, right in the middle. They have they, you know, when they ask, yes, we want the government to act, we are highly supportive of it. But when it comes down to it, it's this tension around the fact that because they may not be well informed, or not thinking about this, they have many competing priorities. You're kind of undecided, or sometimes they're just conflicted about an issue. Right? Because on the one hand, as an example, yeah, I think we absolutely need renewable energy. We need lots of, you know, solar panels, I just don't want them in my house, or we need lots of, you know, solar, renewable solar farms. I just don't want them all over the landscape that I cherish from my childhood. So there are many things that you know are underneath that are operating underneath for people that kind of create some conflict for them. So people, when we talk About the movable metal, really, I think what's important is to acknowledge that most people are concerned. They want when they support action, but they're undecided, potentially about one particular aspect or issue of it. Or there's some other kind of thing that's happening for them that's creating a conflict. Or they're kind of uninformed. So, you know, I think that you know, why an example? Or rather, I'll back up that uninformed piece is particularly important right now, as we see more and more kinds of organized misinformation and disinformation. Right. So as an example, when I'm in focus groups, I can predict with very, you know, a lot of certainty, what are some of the kinds of key narratives that are coming to the surface where people are kind of undecided? One of them might be, well, EV batteries are actually worse, you know, for the environment than, you know, driving a car, or there's no way that we're going to be able to electrify everything the grids can't support. Or it may be that solar panels actually create more emissions when you produce them than they save in their lifetime. So these kinds of things that are very dominant are kind of recurring pieces of information. And when people who are not thinking about this a lot or deeply, as much as maybe you were, I are people who are listening to this. So when people encounter these, this kind of information or confusion about what are the actual solutions? They really don't know what to think. Right? So like a third of us sit within that category, right? If I actually don't know how to make sense of the information that I'm hearing, right, and I don't trust so much of it. Because I know that, you know, I know about misinformation, I know that I shouldn't be, you know, you know, trusting everything that I hear, etc. So that's kind of the deal with the movable middle, right? So they believe climate change is real and not climate deniers. They just may be conflicted or undecided, or just not, you know, as informed because they're not thinking about it on a daily basis.

Dan Seguin 22:32

Now Amber, why is it important for the average communicator, like those in the energy sector, for example, to better understand the strategy behind climate change communications?

Amber Bennett 22:45

Yeah, um, I think because climate change is a super wicked problem, and is really complicated. And maybe me rambling on for the past 20 minutes might give folks a sense of the things that, you know, we were trying to think about and grapple with all at the same time. And so I would say that, in other cases, although arguably, I would argue that information, probably doesn't work it in on any issue. But what we do know, is just giving people information, they're not, you know, people can't reason their way into kind of behavior change. So, you know, we live within systems. You know, we live within communities where, you know, we're surrounded by friends and family, we see ourselves as kind of certain types of people. There are all of these kinds of social needs and emotional needs that humans bring to the table, that climate change communications, and I would argue, probably any good communications needs to attend to. So this sense of belonging, right, so I belong to a community. Other people like me think and act this way, or I expect other people like me to think and act this way. Being able to understand even what the problem is can kind of create shared understanding so that people who are making decisions aren't making decisions that don't consider you that kind of shared understanding peace. People need a sense of efficacy, control in their lives, they need some agency, they just don't need someone making all these decisions on their behalf without any involvement. You know, people want to be good people. And to be able to ask questions and to challenge things that are going to impact their lives without being dismissed as a climate denier or shamed or whatnot. And people trust others for different reasons, right. So scientists are highly tuned lasts. politicians aren't big corporations aren't, right. But the ones who are often leading this conversation in public are big corporations and politicians. So all of those are the things that we need to attend to when we think about, you know, climate communications, and because it's such a complicated problem, and extends to so many aspects of our life. And to be fair, there's a lot of organized opposition and strategies to create polarization to create misinformation. There's a lot happening all at the same time.

Dan Seguin 25:43

Okay, let me ask you this, what effect does it have to all be on the same page?

Amber Bennett 25:51

I often give the analogy of an orchestra, right, where we all have the same song sheet, but we're all playing different instruments. And part of that is, you know, there is a role for the government in setting regulation. And there's a role for activists and advocates to be, you know, opening up new possibilities, holding governments and corporations to account. But actually, we also need businesses to be building out the products and the services and the and the things that we'll be using in our lives. And you need all of these different actors operating all at the same time. And, you know, to live, I guess, within an ecosystem, so I'm very skeptical of how one message is the efficacy of one message, I think that really what is helpful is if people are exposed to and have the ability to make meaning out of climate change, and out of energy transition through many different parts of their lives, and they actually have many different avenues to talk about it and to create, you know, a shared understanding of what they want for their future, or where we're going.

Dan Seguin 27:23

Let's move to electrification, and renewable energy. Cool? These are important pieces of the world's response to climate change. For those in the energy sector who have a direct relationship with electricity consumers, is there a certain messaging that we should be sharing with our audiences?

Amber Bennett 27:47

Such a great question. I might change, I might have a different thought while I'm making a cup of tea, you know, in a couple of hours from now. But I think that there is a very, goes back to the question that we talked about with literacy. And also goes back to some of the things I mentioned around people needing to have a sense of control in their lives. Right. So what we know from the research is that people's motivation to do something as a whole has a lot less to do with their perception of risk than it does there because their perception of their ability to act, and that that action will make a difference. What people really, I would say, based on all the things that I look at and read and whatnot, want is a place to act that makes sense. And that is relevant to their lives. So I think for folks who work in electrification, work in renewable energy, a part of what we need right now is both to fill in all of the pixels around, like, where are we going? What is this going to look like in my daily life? What are the things that make sense for me to do right now? And how are the things that I'm doing making a difference within, you know, the broader community that I know and love and want to make sure it's safe and prosperous? And all of those things? So I think what we're, what we need, in part, are those people who are responsible for infrastructure, for services, for that kind of daily life to start filling in the pixels of what is this going to mean? Because people get a little stuck on, like, blind faith. We're just going to hand it over and other people make decisions. People want to have a conversation. They want to have a space where they can kind of create a shared understanding, right, like a public imagination of like, where are we going? And what's it going to be like when we get there? And what is it going to need in my daily life? And so I think that there's that part, like, what is this going to look like? And then I think the other part is, what are you asking me to do? And how is it gonna make a difference? For me and for my community, Canadians are very generous, right? They're willing to do stuff, even if it doesn't benefit them, if they really believe that it'll, you know, benefit the broader community or collective good, they'll step up. But I would argue that we haven't done a really good job of giving people tangible, practical, relevant things that do make a difference. Neither have we done a great job of filling out the vision of what this is gonna look like, right? It's kind of a little bit like a cliff at the moment, right? We're all going to transition to renewables. And we haven't filled in, what is that actually going to look like? Right? Am I going to have a gas station at the end of my street? I don't know. What is it going to look like? That's what I would say is storytelling, right? What's the story of what this is? How is this going to happen? And what it will look like when we get there.

Dan Seguin 31:27

Okay, Amber. I'm not sure if you're aware, but Hydro Ottawa has committed to being net zero by 2030. Does this kind of messaging resonate with the general public? Are there best practices in how to communicate this type of message in order to influence and maybe even promote change in our community?

Amber Bennett 31:51

Well, I would say if we kind of got back to, you know, when we think about Canadians, right, so I think that you've got a little section of folks who sit on one end, who net zero by 2030 makes a lot of sense. They understand what Net Zero is, they understand why you've chosen 2030. They understand what getting to net zero, you know, even means, however, it's likely that a section of those people are kind of skeptical. Why? Because they've been hearing a lot of targets, and not a lot of action, you know, for many, many decades. And then, so that's, you know, that one group, right, we start to see kind of dropping, you know, belief that, you know, it's possible, or that's going to happen. And then you have that whole other group in the middle that I was talking about, where net zero means absolutely nothing. The word the language, net zero means, you know, I'm being a little bit brutal, but it's true, right, where net zero doesn't really mean a whole lot. And, and neither does 2030, or the importance of it. And I think, you know, I sitting in a boardroom or a meeting room the other day, and we're talking about targets, and it really struck me when the person on the other side said, we know that this is ambitious, and we know that it's impossible, but we have to say it, because it's actually what science requires of us. These are not a political target, it's actually a scientific target, that we need to reduce emissions by this amount by this period in time, even if we'll never get there. That's what science requires of us. So I think all that to say, targets, I think are very helpful for administrators, for policy makers, for business leaders, etc. To help, you know, turn the ship, and to help start getting the kind of resourcing and planning and whatnot in place. But for the general public, what they actually want is what we were just talking about, tell me where we're going and tell me what I have to do. And tell me why it makes a difference.

Dan Seguin 34:17

Cool, Amber. You were a co-author on an incredibly helpful document entitled, climate messaging that works, talking about energy transition and climate change in Canada, which outlines the concept of message triangle. For me, it was a simple takeaway that could be immediately implemented into any communications surrounding climate change. Could you share the coles note of the message triangle with our listeners?

Amber Bennett 34:50

I can, and I would love to. And I suspect that, you know, there'll be parts of what I'm about to say that begin to resonate with some of the past things that I've said or are connected to. So really in a triangle, the underlying principle is that we're trying to create a whole story or a whole narrative for people. And that has a lot to do with how human beings and how we have evolved and how we make sense of the world, we make sense of the world through narrative and through stories. And so when we just give people one piece of something, it doesn't satisfy the way that we have been trained. Since, you know, the, since the beginning to kind of make sense of the world. So what we want to do is we want to give people a challenge that has to either be overcome, or that we're at risk of losing something. So there's a challenge, there's a choice that we have right now that we need to make. And then there's an opportunity. And if we can hit each piece of that triangle, what we're doing is we're creating a whole story for people, which allows them to make sense of why are you taking my time? And why should I listen to you? So you know, as an example, when we talk about the challenge, you know, part of this is really, I think, being more clear about the cause of climate change. But also, what are some of the challenges that we're seeing, that are related to climate change within our communities? You know, I was listening to a CBC program the other day, and there's an entire community in Newfoundland, that's actually moving back from the water. And this is, you know, after the aftermath of Hurricane Fiona and whatnot. So, you know, some of the challenges that we're seeing, what's the challenge that we're trying to overcome? And ideally, I would, right size that at a community scale, right? So people feel overwhelmed when it's my personal individual problem. But if we can begin to talk about this as a community challenge, then people are much more likely to engage because they don't feel like doing it all on their own. Similarly, a choice, right, as communicators, if we're talking specifically to communicators, we often leave out the choice at the moment, what is the call to action? What are you actually trying? What are you asking someone to do? Is it voted a certain way? Is it a conversation? If it takes a particular action, we need something, there's some sort of choice, and there's some sort of action that has to create tension within this story, right? All good stories have a choice that has to be made by the main, you know, character, and then the opportunity. And I think, you know, part of what I've been talking about around, where are we going? What's it going to look like when we get there is that opportunity. So if we're talking about the challenge, is, you know, we're seeing increasing extreme weather, that's because of burning fossil fuels and pollution, the trapping blanket, our choice right now is we need to electrify and that means building infrastructure, the opportunity that we have is at a community scale, both for you know, ourselves and and for others. This kind of, you know, whatever might be the relevance of it right, we'll have a more dependable electricity supply. You know, if we're all in EVs, and we have backup, you know, batteries in our cars, when the power goes out, you know, you've got a little mini generator that you can draw on that gives you electricity, you know, through the storm or something, whatever it might look like. But that's the point is that we're trying to create a full picture for people. We want to talk about, what's the challenge? What's the choice? And what's the opportunity on the other side?

Dan Seguin 39:22

Now, climate change has been a hot topic for oh, God, at least 20 years now. Are there any challenges with keeping an audience engaged and interested for so long?

Amber Bennett 39:36

Yeah, there's actually a woman out of the States who wrote an article. Her name is Suzanne Moser. And it's something I'm going to botch the title but it's something like, you know, Climate Communications 20 Years Later: What Have We Really Learned? And I think that in fairness, I think we've learned a lot, right? I think most people understand that it's more complicated than just giving people a brochure at this point. And I think that in 20 years, we've done a much better job of crystallizing, what is it that we need to do? However, there's also been 20 years of misinformation, 20 years of broken plans and not, you know, unachieved targets etc. And I was chatting with a woman the other day and, and she's like, because I kind of feel like forest fires and floods and hurricanes are doing the job that we used to do, you know, which is creating alarm and concern and demonstrating like, this is real. And it's a big problem. So I think in 20 years, we've had 20 years more of all of that. But we haven't, you know, but, but rather, I would say the job now in this moment, is the pathway, right? And giving people that kind of those choices, that control, and that sense of agency, that they can do something about it. And we need to get on with the action part, right. So we can't leave people in just concern. Because our minds can only hold so much anxiety and concern at one time, amongst all of the other things that we're concerned and anxious about, you know, climate change is just, you know, even more dreadful, particularly, I think, for younger people. So we can't, you know, people can only stay there for so long before they start to kind of check out because, as I go back, you know, I kind of mentioned it in the beginning. It's like our sense of whether or not we or our sense of motivation, or motivation to act has a lot more to do with our sense of being able to do something about it, rather than the risk that it that it proposes or that it is, so yeah. So, I would say the challenges of keeping people interested or if you can't give them something to do, then, you know, at a certain point, you kind of have to just check out of the conversation until, you know, you get clear about what are you asking me, and I think that this kind of anxiety is a real problem. And so the road for them, this moment really requires us to get much more clear about where we're going in the pathway forward.

Dan Seguin 42:52

Okay, Amber, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?

Amber Bennett 43:00

Ready to go? Okay,

Dan Seguin 43:03

What are you reading right now?

Amber Bennett 43:05

Wine Witch on Fire by Natalie Maclean, I think.

Dan Seguin 43:09

Okay, now, what would you name your boat? If you had one, maybe you do. Maybe you don't.

Amber Bennett 43:17

I don't have one. And it would be a miracle if I ever have one. So I'm going to name it a Miracle.

Dan Seguin 43:24

Who is someone that you truly admire?

Amber Bennett 43:28

This is kind of really out of left field, but I'm gonna go with it. So during COVID, there was a woman named Trinny Woodall who used to do What Not To Wear on the BBC. It was like one of the original kinds of reality programs, like one of those. And, you know, I'd love to be more philosophical than this. But I admire her because her whole... a) she works so hard, but also she just wants to make women of a certain age or any woman just feel good. And I really just admire someone whose life and business and purpose is really just trying to make other people see the goodness in themselves or to feel better about themselves. So she's, and she's also for any one who's interested. I mean, a social media magician, like she's, she's magic in terms of what she did. She started during COVID and kind of as a comms person, like, Yeah, amazing. Kind of how she has set herself up as an influencer.

Dan Seguin 44:42

Okay, Amber, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Amber Bennett 44:51

Magic? Yeah, this is hard. Okay, so just bear with me. Great start! This is not as rapid as you probably want. I'm moving houses. I bought a house. And there were two moments in like, one was do I put an offer in? Or do we put an offer in? And then there was another moment, kind of later on. And in both cases, I was about to say, I was going to pull back and say no, you know, I'm not going to go forward with it. And I kid you not, in that moment, the wind picked up. So in one case, I was outside and the wind picked up and got very, very strong where I was standing. So the first time you know, you can kind of blow it off. It's like, oh, yeah, okay, whatever. That was weird. But it happened twice. It happened a second time. And then the second time where I was, you know, kind of stuck. And, you know, wanting to retreat and I got a little, you know, scared about, you know, kind of taking the leap. And in that second time, the same thing happened, where the winds picked up, and they got a little bit stronger around me. And then they calmed down afterwards. And not in a like, oh, I kind of feel like no, it's kind of little, you know, it was very dramatic. And so anyways, I move houses tomorrow, so I'm gonna just put that out to magic. Not quite sure. It doesn't make a lot of logical sense. Why? Why did we do it? But we're there now.

Dan Seguin 46:26

Now, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Amber Bennett 46:32

Yeah, I'm, like so many parents. And I would argue women in particular, the double bind of having to take care of kids as though I don't work. And work even though I don't have kids. And I think for a lot of parents that was the impossible situation and I don't feel that that's really gone away.

Dan Seguin 47:02

This next one I always enjoy. What have you been watching a lot more of on Netflix or TV lately? What's your favorite? In other words, you know, what's your favorite movie or TV show?

Amber Bennett 47:17

I love the Peaky Blinders. And I've gone back and I've watched certain episodes again, just because they're so delicious with the costumes and the characters and the whole thing. I'm, yeah, totally enthralled. Yeah, love it. Okay.Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now. Um, I think that if anyone were to see my email inbox, they'd be very surprised at, you know, I think communion policy was the king for so long. And I think finally, we're at the point where we're beginning to understand that the public has to be on board, the public actually needs to have informed consent about so many of these choices. And we need a social mandate to ensure that climate action is the third rail, right? You know, if you're going to be a leader in this country, or business operating in this country, then you need to be a climate leader, and you need to be a climate business, it has to be fundamental to all of the decisions that you make, and how you and how you operate. Because science doesn't give us any other choice at this moment. So that's, so I think, the kind of realization that we can have all the technology and all the policy that we want, but if people aren't on board, then it's never going to happen. And so I get to work with very interesting people, unexpected from all walks of life, and you know, different sectors who are beginning to understand that, really, this is something we're going to work on until all of us and those beyond. For many generations, yeah.

Dan Seguin 49:12

Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, Amber, or your organization, how can they connect?

Amber Bennett 49:18

Yeah, well, easiest is to go to our website, so Re.Climate, so that's reclimate.ca. And folks can sign up there if they want to, you know, make sure that they get more information on events, and we do lots of, you know, webinars and talks and we release reports and, and whatnot. So that's a great thing to do. And I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn. So Amber Bennett, and I also share lots of things there. that I find interesting.

Dan Seguin 49:59

Well, Amber. This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Amber Bennett 50:08

Yeah. Great questions. Great chat. And thank you.

Dan Seguin 50:14

Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Summer rewind: As demand for electricity increases, the need to diversify supply also rises. In Episode 120 of thinkenergy, Lesley Gallinger, CEO of Ontario's Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), unpacks what’s driving the transformation of the province’s power system, the potential opportunities, and the obstacles standing in the way. From hydrogen innovation to resource procurement, listen in to learn how the IESO is helping Ontario navigate to a cleaner, reliable, and affordable energy future. Related links

● Lesley Gallinger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-gallinger-784a194/

● Lesley Gallinger on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lmgallinger

● IESO website: https://www.ieso.ca/

● Hydrogen Innovation Fund: https://www.ieso.ca/en/Get-Involved/Innovation/Hydrogen-Innov ation-Fund/Overview

● Powering Ontario’s Growth report: https://www.ontario.ca/page/powering-ontarios-growth

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-8b612114/

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

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Transcript:

Trevir Freeman: Everyone, well, it's officially summer. And it's been about four months since I took over the mic as the host of the think energy podcast, which is kind of hard to believe. It's been really fun having great conversations with great people in the energy sector. I now mostly know my way around the recording equipments and the software, and really feel like we're kind of just getting started and looking forward to where we go from here. That said, the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next few months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So, stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So, whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip, or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair Dan second, as well as a couple of mine from the past few months. And you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer and we'll be back with new content in September. And until then, happy listening.

Daniel Seguin: This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In 1902 electrical pioneers met for the first time in Berlin now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss wiring Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Ontario's electricity grid, like all grids around the world was designed as a one way street, to generate, transmit, and deliver electricity to customers. It's no secret that nowadays new technologies are shaking up the way we produce and use electricity. Back then, these pioneers likely couldn't have imagined that the electricity grid would become a two way interactive system capable of supporting variable supply from renewable energy or accommodating electric vehicles, energy storage, home generation, and a host of other innovations. As the demand for electricity grows, Ontario's supply is diversifying, evolving and transforming at a speed we haven't seen in this industry. One thing is for certain, it's going to be one electrifying ride. On today's show, we're diving into the heart of Ontario's power system and shining a light on the organization that manages the province electricity sector. As we mentioned before, we are at the forefront of a power revolution. Of course, we need someone driving the ship to provide guidance on how Ontario's power system adopts a cleaner and more interactive machine. So here's today's big question. What is driving the transformation of Ontario's power system? And what are the potential opportunities and challenges? Joining us today is Lesley Gallinger, president and chief executive officer of the Ontario Independent Electricity System Operator. Under her leadership, the IESO oversees the safe and reliable operation of Ontario's bulk electricity system, ensuring affordable electricity is available when and where people need it. Lesley, so great to have you join us today. Now, your knowledge and experience of the electricity industry is extensive. Can you talk to us a bit about what drew you to a career in energy sector? And what led you to your current role?

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Lesley Gallinger:

Well, thank you for that, Dan. It's great to be here, and I have spent the majority of my career in the electricity sector after spending the first third in a different sector. I certainly benefited from working all across North America and in Europe, for some very sophisticated multinational organizations with very talented team members. However, I always had this interest in electricity. And just for a funny story, my first grade school in Ontario was Sir Adam Beck, so I wonder if that was a bit of foreshadowing. But in reality, I had friends and colleagues in the sector who spoke quite passionately about the impact they were making with the work they were doing. And I was attracted to that. And sure I had some skills that I thought would be transferable. And the role that I have now embodies all of that, as we at the IESO are helping inform and execute on energy policy on electricity policy, specifically that will support Ontarians as we transition to an electrified and decarbonized future. I honestly couldn't imagine a better role to be in at this moment.

Daniel Seguin:

At a high level Lesley, what is the Independent Electricity System Operator and what is it responsible for with respect to Ontario's power system?

Lesley Gallinger:

The IESO works at the heart of Ontario's electricity system, ensuring that electricity is available where and when it is needed. We monitor Ontario's demand in real time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, balancing supply and demand and directing the flow of electricity across the provinces transmission lines. We also oversee the electricity market, which includes putting mechanisms in place to increase competition and ensure cost effective supply. And finally, we also plan the electricity system by working with indigenous communities, with municipalities and stakeholders to forecast demand and secure enough supply to meet Ontario's needs as far as 20 years out.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay, very interesting. Finally, looking forward to your answer on this one here. Can you walk us through how you oversee and manage the electricity systems such as determining the type of supply required to meet demand for electricity in the province? In the short, medium, and long term?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, thanks that that is a good and big meaty question. So we've spoken a lot about where we are now. So after having years of surplus electricity, Ontario is entering a period of growing electricity needs and demand is expected to increase by an average of 2% annually over the next two decades due to electrification and economic growth in various sectors, including residential, agricultural, and mining. One way that the IESO helps meet these growing needs is by securing new supply. In the short term, we have the annual capacity auction that we conduct that allows existing resources to compete. This is cost effective and allows the IESO to adapt to changing supply and demand conditions on a year by year basis. We also look at three to five year commitments for other resources, this timeframe provides more certainty while ensuring it doesn't get locked into commitments that no longer reflect those changing needs of electrification. And finally, in the long term, we look 20 years out to secure resources that require significant upfront investments in order to give suppliers the confidence they need to make those investments. So it's a bit of a layer cake with those three timeframes.

Daniel Seguin:

Great segway here. Okay. What do you see as the IESOs role in the future planning of the evolving electricity grid and your role in supporting the changing energy needs of the decarbonized economy?

Lesley Gallinger:

As Ontario's electricity system planner, we certainly have the long view. Our role is to ensure that Ontario's current and future energy needs are met both reliably and affordably. Our corporate strategy calls out three main ways in which we do this we ensure system reliability while supporting cost effectiveness, we're driving business transformation within the IESO and also driving and guiding the sector's future by working closely with indigenous communities, municipalities and stakeholders. On the decarbonisation front, our main role is to enable technologies that will help us decarbonize. There's lots of emerging energy resources that can help us build a zero emissions electricity grid and the IESO ensures that these resources can all participate in Ontario's electricity system and markets. We're procuring new resources under our flexible resource adequacy framework. We recently announced the procurement of over 800 megawatts of energy storage, which is the largest energy procurement energy storage procurement in Canada to date, that combined with 250 megawatts of the Oneida battery storage project, the IESO, with these projects, is taking steps to integrate this valuable and flexible resource. And in last December's publication of pathways to decarbonisation, we explored ways in which Ontario can move forward to an emissions-free electricity system. The Ministry of Energy consulted on our pathways report, and recently on July 10, very recently, announced a series of actions in its report powering Ontario's growth. And those actions include collaborating with Bruce Power and Ontario Power Generation on pre development work to to consider potential new nuclear generation reporting back on the design of our second long term procurement, which will acquire new non-emitting resources supporting a Ministry of Energy consultation on a post 2024 Conservation Demand Management Framework and assessing additional transmission needs to support new and growing generation and demand in the province. So quite a list of workforce ahead that we're very excited to undertake. And as our system operator for the province, we're certainly at the center of all of this. There'll be a continuing need for coordination with the broader electricity sector in order to plan an orderly transition to a decarbonize grid, there will also be an increased need to revisit how we plan the electricity system. The IESO is looking forward to working with the electrification and energy transition panel to identify ways to adapt and evolve existing frameworks in order to increase transparency and ensure communities and stakeholders are more aware of what we're doing and why. This work, the work of the EETP also takes a broader economy wide view, which reflects how the electricity sector is becoming increasingly dependent on other sectors like industry and transportation. So you know, in short, a lot of work and some very exciting work ahead.

Daniel Seguin:

Follow up question here for you. Now, some Ontarians are concerned about moving to variable renewable energy sources like wind and solar, while others are concerned about continuing use of natural gas. What have you uncovered in your work about these issues? And what would you like residents of Ontario to know?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah great question Dan, every type of generation has its own strengths and drawbacks based on its unique attributes, which is why Ontario maintains a diverse supply mix that can adapt to changing system conditions quickly. Renewables such as wind and solar are not emitting when they generate electricity, but they're also intermittent, meaning how much electricity they produce can change rapidly in response to weather conditions. And to help with this, the IESO is looking into hybrid facilities that combine renewables with energy storage. By 2026 we'll also have about 1300 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, which will help more efficiently integrate renewables. We're also going to start designing our second long term procurement which will focus on acquiring non-emitting resources and we'll be engaging on this with stakeholders and communities as we go. Natural gas, for example, has the main advantage that it can respond quickly to change in demand and system conditions, making it an important resource for us as we seek to maintain reliability. Ontario's demand fluctuates constantly throughout the day, and having access to natural gas can help us respond to sudden changes and maintain a balance across the system. It's also very important to recognize and something I'd like to emphasize for your listeners that overall emissions from Ontario's electricity sector are extremely low, the sector accounts for about 3% of the provinces total emissions. While this may increase slightly in the future, the continued existence of natural gas on the grid is an important resource to help us transition and it'll enable the near term electrification of other sectors which in total will drive down Ontario's emissions.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay Lesley, how will the efficiency upgrades at existing natural gas facilities contribute to meeting the growing demand? And what is the plan for these facilities as emerging technologies mature and the reliance on natural gas decreases?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yes, and as I mentioned in my earlier remarks, Ontario's definitely entering a period of increased demand and so with many existing contracts expiring, and nuclear plants undergoing refurbishment or scheduled to be decommissioned, coupled with increasing electrification of other sectors, the province is going to need more power in the immediate future and the natural gas expansions can help with this. In our pathways to decarbonisation report, we looked at the questions the minister posed to us, we looked at a moratorium scenario that would phase out natural gas over time as newer non-emitting resources come online, and in the report we concluded that we could be less reliant on natural gas in Ontario by the year 2035 and completely phased out by 2050. Efforts were made to align this report with clean electricity regulations, and that recognizes that the contribution of natural gas may be restricted over time, but for the meantime, we have you know, the important transitional resource needs, the natural gas fulfills.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay. In May of 2023, the IESO announced that it was moving forward with the largest procurement of energy storage in Canada. What can you tell us about these storage projects and their benefits?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, this was a very exciting announcement for us the energy storage projects we announced in May were for grid connected battery storage systems, which will be an important step towards the transition to a non-emitting supply mix, and will support grid reliability. The procurement was the culmination of the work we've done over the last several years to understand the potential of battery storage to provide supply and reliability services to the grid. The biggest advantage of energy storage is that it can charge during off peak hours when the provincial electricity demand is low and then inject energy back into the grid during peaks when demand is high, which makes it very flexible and a resource that can help us optimize the efficiency of other resource types. And we also see battery storage as a key enabler of decarbonisation. It will help us to integrate more renewables such as wind and solar onto the system, but also get more out of our current nuclear and hydro fleet. By charging during these off peak hours energy storage can use up any surplus green power from Ontario's existing nuclear and hydro facilities.

Daniel Seguin:

Now, how does this procurement help ensure system reliability during nuclear refurbishment and support the overall energy transformation in Ontario,

Lesley Gallinger:

The procurement will help with the transition away from natural gas and it's certainly about maintaining reliability at a time when multiple refurbishments are underway. In particular, the Pickering generating station is scheduled to go out of service mid decade and so right around that time, those energy storage projects are expected to be online. Certainly the timelines of the procurements were aligned understanding what the system conditions would be at that time, Lesley, I'd like to dig into your fascinating pathway to decarbonisation report just a bit. Ontario has one of the cleanest electricity system in North America, contributing only 3% to the provinces greenhouse gas emissions, that doesn't sound like a lot. So why is it important to eliminate the remaining 3% of emissions from the grid? Yeah, another another really interesting question and the subject of a lot of conversations we've been having we know that electricity use is going to increase in the coming years driven by an economic growth and electrification across other sectors. Transportation is becoming increasingly electrified as our industrial processes such as steel smelting, and as the pace of electrification speeds up the efforts and investments being made by businesses and households to electrify will increase society's reliance on electricity as a fuel and electricity is only as clean as the resources we use to make it. So that 3%, if we don't tackle that remaining 3%, we will see an increased reliance on less clean generating sources. I mean tackling climate change is certainly an economy wide effort and clean electricity is a fundamental enabler of those climate change solutions.

Daniel Seguin:

Thanks for that, Lesley. Now, I have a follow up question for you. The IESO presents two scenarios to address decarbonisation, what are they and what key assumptions and drivers were discovered with your analysis?

Lesley Gallinger:

So our first scenario was the moratorium scenario where the IESO so looked at restricting the procurement of additional natural gas. And this assessment showed that a moratorium would be feasible beginning in 2027, and that Ontario could be less reliant on natural gas by 2035. At that point, the system would not require additional emitting generation to ensure reliability provided that other forms of non-emitting supply could be added to the system in time to keep pace with demand growth. The second scenario is our pathways to decarbonisation scenario, this scenario assumed aggressive electrification of the transportation and industrial sectors, and that attaining a completely decarbonized grid would be possible by 2050, while balancing reliability and costs, so you can see a lot of variables came to play in that second scenario.

Daniel Seguin:

Perfect. Thanks, Lesley. Now, what are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 and 2050 targets?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, I think that's, you know, that's what we're all looking towards and bridging the work of today with the needs of a futurized decarbonized world will be challenging and complex, a collaborative approach across all sectors of the economy will certainly be necessary to achieve this. From Ontario's perspective, we're in a strong starting position, our electricity system is already close to 90% emissions free, most of the generation coming from Hydro and Nuclear resources. And in our pathways report, we identify that for Ontario, at least, a moratorium on natural gas could be possible by 2035, and a fully decarbonized electricity system by 2050 provided that new non-emitting supplies and surfaces online. So we certainly had those goals in mind for Ontario as we created that pathway so decarbonisation work.

Daniel Seguin:

Now Lesley, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges facing the electricity industry in Canada today? And what are the biggest opportunities?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, I anchor on the word orderly because I've used it a lot. The biggest challenge I see is managing the significant transformation that's underway. And doing it in an orderly fashion, electrification is requiring the electricity system to expand and produce more power, while decarbonisation puts pressure on the grid to rely more heavily on low carbon resources, many of which are still in their early days of development. Across the country. Every province is faced with similar challenges. The recently formed Canadian Electricity Advisory Council will provide advice to the Minister of natural resources on ways to accelerate investment and promote sustainable, affordable, reliable electricity systems. And I have the privilege of being on this panel. It's exciting work with colleagues from across the country, many of whom come from provinces in very different stages of decarbonisation. We're sharing best practices and all working towards similar goals. For Ontario, we're entering a period of emerging electricity system needs starting in the 2020s. These electricity and energy capacity needs will continue through to 2040. So demand is expected to increase at nearly 2% per year as I mentioned earlier. All of this presents incredible opportunities for Ontario's communities, new technologies are creating economic growth opportunities and setting the stage for Ontario to build a highly skilled workforce to push to decarbonize will have significant impacts on economy wide emissions reductions, and building the electricity grid of the future also presents opportunities to collaborate and strengthen relationships with indigenous communities and municipalities. Back to my first comment, the pace of this change is a vital consideration. We need to strike the right balance between decarbonizing the grid, while it's still ensuring electricity and energy remain reliable and affordable. If we go too fast, the cost may impede electrification, if we go too slow, we're not going to have the supply available as demand increases. So it really is about thinking this through orderly and it's an all hands on deck challenge.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay, moving along here, maybe you could walk us through some of the scope for what's required to decarbonize Ontario's electricity system. What does an achievable pathway to net zero look like?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, that's the work of the IESO on a regular basis. I mean, I can't underscore my last point enough, which is that it's vital that the transition occurs in an orderly manner, we absolutely need to act but we need to act in a carefully managed way that balances decarbonisation with reliability and affordability. Large infrastructure such as hydroelectric plants and nuclear facilities and transmission lines can take 15-10 years, sometimes more to build, significant investments in capital and materials and labor will be required to build out a fully decarbonized system. And one study I read estimated that 14,000 strong labor force participants, that are that are currently working on our electricity infrastructure would need to increase by a factor of six. So you know, that's a huge investment in training and getting people ready to build all the things we need to build. Indigenous communities and municipalities also have a voice in how and where new infrastructure is located. So meaningful and transparent discussions about siting and land use will be needed. And while many technologies will be needed to decarbonize the grid already known, some are not known and not commercialized yet. And so those are low carbon fuels small modular reactors still in development. At this point, it'll be important for Ontario and for Canada to continue to invest in these and other other innovations as well in supporting the pathway. We need energy plans to be approved and new infrastructure needs to be planned, permitted and cited. Regulatory and approval processes such as the environmental impact assessments need to be resourced, appropriately and streamlined to enable all of these builds to happen. We also need the supporting transmission infrastructure to be planned and built on on similar timelines as demand growth and as new supply comes online and underlying all of that we need to carefully manage the costs to ensure the actual impact on total energy costs is affordable, and that they do not diverge significantly, Ontario from those of our neighbors in Manitoba and Quebec and in the US. So lots of again, lots of facets, but work that can be itemized now and definitely plan forward.

Daniel Seguin:

Cool. What are some of IESO's, no regret actions that can be taken to help meet those growing demands?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, I think the minister anchored on some of those in his Powering Ontario's Growth report, Ontario can certainly continue to acquire new non-emitting resources and incentivize energy efficiency through our Save on Energy programs. sector partners can also begin planning and citing for new potential projects, partnerships between municipal, provincial and federal governments will also be key and we need to continue to develop those relationships now, while we're also revisiting the regulatory frameworks that may hinder and prevent progress. Last but certainly not least, we must track our progress in an open and transparent way. There's no one way we can say decarbonisation happens. It's a gradual change that will take place over many years, and will require lots of little steps to make progress. And certainly the government's recent response to our reports puts in motion some of those actions including asking us at the IESO to explore opportunities to enable future generation in northern Ontario and reducing the reliance on natural gas generation in the GTA. The ministry has also asked the IESO to begin consultations on a competitive transmitter selection framework for future lines with electricity supply expected to continue to grow over the next 20 to 30 years, you know, that's what we're doing now, you know, in terms of planning, but we're also we're also working to secure new capacity and leveraging our existing assets. So that is through our very thorough resource adequacy framework, which was put in place that outlines our strategy to get that new supply in the short, medium and long term. A key piece of this is competitive procurements and the processes that have been used to date including the annual capacity auction, and but you know, there's also work being done that we're leveraging by our energy efficiency and demand response programs that that get back to what individuals and what individual businesses can do to support decarbonisation. We've got market renewal going on. We've got medium and long term procurements. So lots of action underway. All of them no regret that can that can be continued to to meet this demand.

Daniel Seguin:

Now Lesley, with electricity supply expected to grow the next 20 to 30 years, what is the IESO doing to secure new capacity? And how is it leveraging existing assets?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, great question. So in terms of generating new supply or acquiring new supply, that's really our resource adequacy framework. It outlines, you know, the work we're doing both in the short, medium and long term to competitively procure new resources. We've recently done the procurements for batteries and for natural gas, upgrades and expansions. We'll be launching our next procurement very shortly and designing the one after that. So it's that layer cake approach that I mentioned. We've also, you know, can can anchor back in the strides we've taken in the current procurements to secure we've had great resources come to bear and participate in those procurements, so we're very hopeful that future procurements will also be very successful

Daniel Seguin:

Now hoping you can help demystify this next one for our listeners. What is the Hydrogen Energy fund? What is special about hydrogen, and how do you think it will support Ontario's reliability needs and decarbonisation?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, it is, it is a new word and a new way of thinking for for a lot of folks. So let me dig into that. But the goal of our hydrogen Innovation Fund is to investigate, evaluate and demonstrate how low carbon hydrogen technologies could be integrated into the grid. The new program will enable the IESO to test the ability of hydrogen to support grid reliability and affordability, but also the role it can play in broader decarbonisation. Hydrogen has the potential to reduce electricity sector emissions, but it could also be used as a replacement fuel in other more fossil fuel intensive industries such as transportation. From the electricity sector's perspective, hydrogen has the potential to provide several essential services, it can smooth the output from renewable resources such as wind and solar, it can be blended into natural gas to reduce total emissions and could be used to offer several services such as peaking generation, grid efficiency and storage. But all that being said, it's not an ultimate solution. While hydrogen can be used to generate electricity producing it also requires electricity. So the integration of hydrogen like all new resources will require a balanced approach, one that can make more efficient use of our existing electricity system assets which the Hydrogen Innovation Fund will help with the interest in the fund has been very high. The IESO has received more than 25 applications. The projects are in flight now are undergoing review right now. And we should be in a position to announce the successful projects in September.

Daniel Seguin:

Lesley. Let's now look globally, what are other countries doing right, that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, I think I think this is, you know, very important. We very much focused on on Canada or in you know, in our case, Ontario for answers. And the IESO is just one of many electricity system operators worldwide. And I certainly am always keeping an eye on what other countries are doing. However, every jurisdiction has unique circumstances, which include laws, regulations, geography and politics that can sometimes make comparisons difficult. In North America, specifically, Ontario is a leader in many ways and the pathways report is a very well thought out approach. And so I think that's an area of interests that others have looked to us, that, coupled with our experience of phasing out coal fired generation, we're in a good position really to set examples for other jurisdictions looking to do similar work, and certainly in conversations with my IESO counterparts around North America, we're having robust discussions and learning from each other.

Daniel Seguin:

Well, looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach, what is giving you hope?

Lesley Gallinger:

Well, electricity is being looked at to support decarbonisation of other sectors and to support economic growth. That's hugely exciting to see the broad impact our industry is having on society. And as we engage with broader audience, the collaborative spirit across the sector, across the province and across the country, we're seeing... certainly gives me hope that Ontario can achieve decarbonisation through an orderly transition that balances that decarbonisation desire with reliability and affordability that are at the heart of our mandate.

Daniel Seguin:

Lastly, Lesley, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

Lesley Gallinger:

I'm ready. These were some of the more difficult questions, Dan. So I'm certainly ready for these.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay. What are you reading right now?

Lesley Gallinger:

So I just finished reading a really great book, how big things get done by bent flyvbjerg. And I think it's making the rounds really good book on large projects, and what we can learn from past failures in large projects, which will be important information for Ontario.

Daniel Seguin:

Cool. Thanks for sharing. Now, what would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?

Lesley Gallinger:

Well, I have a very, very small boat, and I have yet to name it. But now now that you've got me thinking about that the wheels are turning. At the moment, it's new, so I'm just learning to park it. And when I say park, my my partner rolls his eyes and says "you mean dock" and I say no, Park. So next time we speak Dan, I'll have a name for the boat.

Daniel Seguin:

Very good. Who is someone that you truly admire?

Lesley Gallinger:

I think this was the most difficult question. There are people I admire in many aspects of my life. And I certainly wouldn't want to single out anyone or miss out on another person. But if I can be a bit general, given the role I'm in, I'd have to say it's the people who have the vision and foresight to see what's coming in the future and to plan and build those large projects and large infrastructure investments needed to get there.

Daniel Seguin:

What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Lesley Gallinger:

Well, I am a lover of being outdoors, so perhaps for me it would be on the morning after a deep snowfall on the trails around my friend's property being the first snow shoes out on the trails on a Sunday morning. It's so quiet and so beautiful and it just feels magical.

Daniel Seguin:

Now what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Lesley Gallinger:

I think for me, it would be helping my mom stay connected to to our community as as an elderly widow in her own home. It was a lot of one on one contact for me with her and making sure that I could connect her to a broader social network. So she didn't feel so isolated. And I think that was, you know, well worth the challenge. But it was a it was a challenge.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay. We've all been watching just a little bit more TV or even Netflix lately. What is your favorite show?

Lesley Gallinger:

So I spend very little time watching TV and when I do or, or Netflix, and when I do, it's mostly documentaries. I want to give a call out for a course I'm taking right now online, which is the closest thing to TV, I'm taking the University of Alberta's indigenous Canada course, which has been for me tremendous value in helping me understand indigenous worldviews and perspectives. But I did just watch a Netflix series on the Tour de France, which was a fascinating look at the teams and tactics as well as the effort that the athletes endure over that 21 days.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay, cool. Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?

Lesley Gallinger:

Oh, my goodness. My teams have heard me use this before everything everywhere all at once. We have an opportunity as an industry right now to guide generational change and to have an impact on the environment and the economy far past our working lives. And that is incredibly exciting.

Daniel Seguin:

Well, Lesley, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?

Lesley Gallinger:

Thank you. Yes. www.ieso.ca. Our website has a wealth of resources to help listeners become more energy literate. And to understand the work we do. And you can find me on LinkedIn at Lesley Gallinger.

Daniel Seguin:

Again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Lesley Gallinger:

I did! The questions were tough, but very interesting and they certainly got to the heart of the work that we do at the IESO. Thank you, Dan, for for your interest in our work and for asking those questions that allow me to speak and highlight the work of the incredible professionals that work at the IESO.

Daniel Seguin: Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guest or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Electricity Canada’s President and CEO, Francis Bradley, joins thinkenergy in episode 140. Hear about the shift to sustainable electricity, including the difficulties navigating provincial and federal policies, climate change directives, and funding gaps. Plus how Electricity Canada evolved from a technical exchange club into a national advocate for sustainable energy. From challenges to leading the charge, learn how governments and private sectors are working towards a clean, efficient electricity system. Related links: Francis Bradley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francis-bradley-3617802a/ Electricity Canada: https://www.electricity.ca/ The state of the Canadian electricity industry 2024 Getting to Yes report: https://www.electricity.ca/advocacy/getting-to-yes-the-state-of-the-canadian-electricity-industry-2024/ Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript: Trevor Freeman 00:07 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone, welcome back. On the show before we have talked about how energy is primarily a provincial jurisdiction in Canada, so that means that provinces and provincial governments set energy policy provincial grids are structured both in a regulatory sense as well as a physical infrastructure sense. at the provincial level, we've gone into some detail about Ontario's grid and talked about how it's kind of a distributed grid meeting most electricity customers in Ontario get their electricity from a local distribution company. Not every province is the same in any of those senses. Some are a little bit more vertically integrated, meaning there are you know, maybe a single entity that gets you all the way from generation to distribution. There's different regulatory frameworks. The point is there's a lot of diversity across the country. Now, as much as that is a provincial jurisdiction, there is a role for the federal government to play here at that national level. There are some national policy directions that are important and that impacts energy policy. Climate change is a great example. So the federal government has jurisdiction to set targets and come up with strategies to address climate change for the country. Things that the federal government is doing currently is enacting a clean electricity standard with the goals of decarbonizing electricity generation in the country, so making sure that we stop using fossil fuels to generate electricity on a large scale. The federal government also supports decarbonisation efforts for buildings and for transportation, and they put money into those things. And those efforts impact electricity grids and impact markets. The federal government also has a role to play when it comes to major projects and providing approvals for those projects to move forward. And that includes energy projects. So new generation or new transmission, you know, things that are using land or moving across land, there's a role for the federal government to play there. So enter electricity Canada, the national voice for electricity utilities in Canada. Now, we've talked before about the sort of provincial equivalent that advocates on behalf of energy utilities. This is the national voice here for electricity, utilities, electricity, Canada has been around for over 130 years now. And their focus, at least in the last while has been on federal advocacy. I'm not going to tell you too much about electricity, Canada, because my guest today is going to talk a little bit about that. But just as a primer. So they have recently published their 2024 state of the industry report, which looks at the need to accelerate some of these major initiatives in the electricity sector to keep up with the energy transition that, as we've talked about many times is already underway. It's already happening. And we are just trying to keep up really. So my guest today is actually making his second appearance on the podcast as Francis Bradley, who is the president and CEO of electricity Canada, and has held a number of different roles within electricity Canada as well prior to becoming the president CEO. He also has a number of key positions on national committees and working groups, which are focused on infrastructure, energy and electricity and other related topics. And most interestingly, he also hosts his own podcast, the flux capacitor, which I highly recommend you check out. Francis, welcome back to the show. Francis Bradley 04:01 Delighted to be here. Thanks for the invitation, Trevor. Trevor Freeman 04:03 So I know you've kind of given us the background before but electricity Canada has been around for over 130 years now, which is older than our kind of modern, interconnected grid, at least here in Canada. Can you just remind us of the role and the mandate that your organization plays in the electricity sector? Francis Bradley 04:20 Sure. Absolutely. In fact, somewhere we have a photograph of like the first meeting of what at the time was the Canadian electrical Association at Niagara Falls in 1891. Trevor Freeman 04:32 Wow. Francis Bradley 04:32 But yeah, you know, where, where we're at today. So basically, you know, if you turn a light switch on pretty much anywhere in Canada, any province, any territory, everything it took to generate, transmit and distribute the electricity to turn that light on was probably done by by one of one of our 42 members. They're in every single province, every single territory to use the official the official definition you know, Our mandate is to be the national voice for sustainable electricity for our members and the customers they serve. We do this through advocacy through sharing best practices, and, and education of stakeholders and the government. But yeah, our our members are basically the, you know, the 40 odd, biggest companies that generate transmit distributed coast to coast to coast. Trevor Freeman 05:22 And has that mandate changed over the course of the 130 years, or is it pretty consistent? Francis Bradley 05:27 No, it's It's actually that's that's an interesting question. It has changed a lot. And it's changed over the time since I've been at the association even and then aimless changed, that this is the third name. I'm on since since I joined the organization. Yeah, when it was first established. As you say, there was a letter A long time ago, 133 years, it was basically a little club for these people that were in this nascent industry who, who would, you know, swap stories about, about what they're doing and how it's working. And even at the time, there was still, you know, debates about should we be doing AC or DC and, you know, the whole, the whole, you know, battle between, between Westinghouse and, and, and, and the other folks, but so, you know, it was initially a technical information exchange organization, when I joined the organization, it was still very much technically focused, would do a big annual conference, we actually had a technical research division, and we do a couple of million dollars of research a year, back then. We then evolved, we, we evolved from the Canadian electrical association to the Canadian electricity Association. And our mandate began to shift away from Duke First off, where we stopped doing technical research and moved away from technical detailed technical information exchange, and increasingly our mandate began to focus on advocacy and and what the what the industry needs and what they what the members require, from an advocacy standpoint. And then in the 1990s, mid 1990s, we moved up into Ottawa because prior to that we'd been in Montreal, we've been in Montreal since the 1930s. Before that, we were in Toronto. So in the 90s, given that the focus had shifted pretty significantly to advocacy, and the principal government that we were seeking to advocate with was the federal government, the office moved up to Ottawa. And then three years ago, the name of the organization was changed from the Canadian electricity Association, to simply electricity, Canada. Trevor Freeman 07:42 So that's that switch from technical to the more advocacy and policy work. It's really interesting and actually kind of ties into this. This next question, I want to ask you, we've talked on the show before about, you know, how the Ontario electricity sector is structured. And it's complex, to say the least, but that's one of many in Canada, different provinces have different regulatory structures. Energy Policy is primarily provincial jurisdiction. But as you mentioned, the federal government has a say in that as well, especially when it comes to climate change recently. So I'm curious, how do you navigate all those differences and kind of speak with a common voice when you're dealing with so many different regulatory bodies? So many different governmental bodies? What's How do you find that common voice? Francis Bradley 08:31 Yeah, well, and you know, that that is that is that the fundamental challenge of, frankly, any organization in Canada that's attempting to, to operate at a national level, in a in a sort of domain that's principally principally provincial, but it's kind of even more so with electricity because of the differences in different jurisdictions. And, you know, you've noted that Ontario is complex in terms of the industry structure, it was more complex. When I when I first started in the sector, there were 300 and more than 350 local distribution companies, you know, so there's been a little bit of consolidation, Trevor Freeman 09:11 we have a paltry 60 something now. Francis Bradley 09:13 Yeah, well, that's right. Yeah, we're down into only double digits. But at the same time, you know, we also saw, you know, municipal municipal amalgamations that's taken place that have driven some of that, but, you know, so we've seen an evolution here in Ontario. But, you know, there are no two jurisdictions in this country that are the same. So you know, there isn't a like an electricity system in Canada, each province and territory is different, different types of ownership. You know, in some, it's like a private, privately run companies and in other jurisdictions, it's a Crown Corporation. In some like Ontario, it's a hybrid of a mix of different types of ownership. But, you know, there's there are there are crowns, there are municipally owned there are privately owned companies as part of the value chain. And so you know, It results in a pretty disparate system, both in terms of how the sector is structured, and also how its regulated. Because the regulations are different in each and every one of those jurisdictions. And so, you know, this presents us with a huge problem, frankly, and we see it now, in particular, with respect to all of the politics around climate change, because electricity is a provincial responsibility, but we have one level of government, the federal government, providing direction in this space. And then we have another level of government, that the provincial level, you know, reacting to what those national objectives are, we've got multiple regulators across the country offering their own interpretations on what can and cannot be done in this space. And it proves to be a problem, you know, with respect to the challenge to build the infrastructure that's going to be needed to meet our, our, our aspirations, our future aspirations, this complexity makes it very difficult to get things moving and get things done. And, you know, in addition to that, honestly, in the past year, you know, if you look at the relationship between federal government, the federal government and provincial governments, in some parts of this country, it's starting to smell and feel like just raw geopolitics, right. You know, all sides, frankly, on some of these files have have demonstrated the sort of dogmatic posturing that you'd expect between countries, not necessarily between provinces, and a central government and in a confederation. But, you know, the thing is, and I keep going back to this, if you sort of strip out the posturing that we see, the fact is, we actually agree on much more than than the areas where we disagree. And here's an example. You know, if you look at the, the,the provincial opposition in a number of provinces to the Government of Canada's clean electricity regulations, you would think that, you know, we're on completely different pages here. But, you know, if you ignore some of the, you know, saber rattling, and the point scoring, you actually can see that there is general agreement provincially. And federally, that electrification is going to be, you know, the long term solution to our climate crisis. In fact, the only thing that's in dispute is sort of the deadline and the methods that we're getting there. So, you know, there, there are expressions in some provincial capitals, about the clean electricity regulations as the method and you know, and dispute as to whether or not it should be 2035, or a different time frame, but everybody is on the same page of, you know, an aspiration to have a non omitting sort of a clean system throughout the economy by 2050. And so, you know, that's the starting point that we work from, is that, oh, yes, there are certainly disparate views on some of the methods and some of the policies, but objectively, we are all attempting to head essentially in the same direction. We're all heading towards, like this net zero future. It's just a question of, how are we going to get there and, and with the time you're going to be, Trevor Freeman 13:18 it's interesting to hear you say that, because that's, you know, a couple episodes back, I talked to David Caletto, from abacus, and he was talking about just the general populations opinion on things, and it mirrors that exactly. So it's not just our sort of various jurisdictions and levels of government that kind of agree, where we need to get to, they just don't know how we're gonna get there. They don't agree and how we're gonna get there. Francis Bradley 13:40 Yep. Trevor Freeman 13:41 Your average Canadian also agrees with that. Canadians feel that a an electrified energy sector energy system is better than a fossil fuel one. Francis Bradley 13:50 Yep. Trevor Freeman 13:51 We just don't agree on how we're going to get there. So yeah, that's great. Great to hear. And that leaves you guys to sort of thread that needle and find the common points and amplify that I imagine. Francis Bradley 14:00 Absolutely. And, you know, and, and attempt to come up with solutions. You know, given that our principal role is, is is in advocacy, you know, that that means that we're in the public policy, loop solutions business, and trying to attempt to find ways to to, as you say, thread that thread that needle, but also, you know, figure out ways that that we can make sure that we have policies that are supportive of that future that, you know, as you said, even even the polling work that the David Caletto discussed with you. They agree that that's the destination as well. So, like, what's one of the public policy specific initiatives apart from the overall objective that we should be seeking to, you know, seeking to pursue? Trevor Freeman 14:51 So if I could pick on one of those specific issues, you know, keeping on this theme of regional differences and regional challenges, we have different relationships with the fossil fuel industry in Canada. And that includes both our electricity generation, some of our provinces have predominantly carbon free generation and some don't. And in terms of our economy, so I mean, West fossil fuel is weaved into the economy and a pretty integrated way. How can we navigate this move to cleaner electricity, collectively as a country, knowing that different areas of the country have to do different things to get there, and it's going to impact them in different ways? Francis Bradley 15:31 Yeah, and it isn't surprising that different parts of the country have a different approach to this, and they're coming from a different starting point. You know, it's kind of the luck of the draw, when, you know, when, when the geography prior to, you know, it prior to prior to anything like this, it was all determined by geography, if you happen to be in a jurisdiction today, that has a lot of water and a lot of different elevations so that the water is falling, you know, you're starting it certainly in a in a in a better place. That, you know, that the challenge overall is to is to really try and figure out how we we make this work across the country? You know, you're you're absolutely right, there are some parts of this country that have historically been very reliant on fossil fuels for the production of electricity. Why? Well, because they didn't have any falling water, or they're relatively flat. And so you know, that that was the certainly the case. And it continues to be the case and the challenge for some jurisdictions, so, you know, take the example of the draft clean electricity regulations that, you know, we've been, we've been talking about, and we're spending a lot of time focused on they, they hit different jurisdictions very differently, this objective to try and reach a netzero grid by 2035 is not a huge stretch, if you happen to be, you know, in in, in Quebec, or in British Columbia, or in Manitoba, it's a lift, but it's not a huge lift. You know, however, if you're, if you're elsewhere, it, it can be quite challenging. So the problem that we have there is, but you know, when the government of Canada began putting together their work on the clean electricity regulations, they use modeling that looked at the national average, and, you know, nationally, they were 84%, non emitting as a country. That's great. Trevor Freeman 17:31 Right. Francis Bradley 17:32 But, you know, they really should have taken a hard look at what the differences were between different jurisdictions in the country. And they should have done their modeling that was much more local. You know, Canada is a big, diverse country. And, you know, you hinted at that. So, you know, exactly nowhere in Canada is average. Right, and so we shouldn't be modeling nowhere. Because then that simply doesn't work. You know, and, and the, the simple illustration, I will often say is, if you've got two lobsters, and one of them is in the freezer, and the other one is in the pod on your stove, on average, the temperature is pretty good for the lobsters. But it isn't for either of them, right? Yeah. So, you know, listen, why does this matter? Well, if we get the modeling wrong, and if we don't understand the differences between the different regions of the country, we're going to be making decisions on how to allocate because, you know, we talk about 2050, and what is Net Zero 2050 Looks like, looks like it's going to be, you know, trillions of dollars worth of investments are going to be required. And if they're leaning on models that are not right, that becomes problematic. It's a huge bet that we're making, you know, if the models we base our decision making on and where we're going to be putting our investments aren't accurate. If the regulations are wrong, you know, these clean electricity regulations, because they didn't take into consideration the regional differences. Compliance is going to be expensive. It could in some jurisdictions, you know, make blackouts or brownouts more common with bigger impacts, and it might have disproportionately more significant impact on on the rates in most jurisdictions. So, you know, the reality is, it's four provinces in, in in Canada, that have a starting point with respect to decarbonisation, that's substantially lower than then the rest of the country. They've got much more significant lift if you happen to be in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. That's just the reality. So you know, we need to move forward with the with decarbonisation, but we need to be realistic that moving us from what we have today and 84% carbon free system to 100% is going to be far far more complicated than it's assumed. Again, looking at it on a national average, it seems like only a small numbers, you know, we're at 84%. It's not a stretch to 100. Except if you're in a jurisdiction where it's, you know, 10%. Yeah, then it's a problem. Trevor Freeman 20:09 Okay, so 11 years, we got our work cut out for us. And we'll kind of see how we move forward. A big part of what we're going to talk about today is electricity, Canada's recent report that you've called Getting to Yes. The 2024 state of the Canadian electricity industry. So in the very first lines of the report, you talk about how there's this culture of No. Which is creating these major obstacles to progress. The report highlights that there have been all these funding pledges from the federal government. But projects are not getting off the ground. They're hitting barriers. Can you elaborate on what some of those barriers are? Francis Bradley 20:48 Sure, absolutely. Happy to. This is, this is something that we've been very focused on since we released a report earlier this year, is is an initiative we do each year, we try and kind of sum up what we see as the most significant challenge for the sector. And, yeah, the challenge for this sector is we need to, we need to figure out how to how to get to yes. This year, earlier this year, we saw the release of RBC, the RBC climate action Institute report that charted this massive growth for electricity, particularly with the rise of electric vehicles, and home heating. But the reports word of the year for the electricity sector is moratorium that because that was, you know, such a significant event, in the past year 2023 was a difficult year, frankly, you know, we've seen some projects that were halted temporarily like that six month moratorium, the pause on renewables in Alberta, we saw some projects, you know, like the Atlantic loop in the Maritimes, that were halted in indefinitely. And, you know, what's moving forward now is, is a piece of what would have been the Atlantic loop, but the Atlantic loop just just hasn't moved forward. So, you know, there, there is a very significant challenge, right now, with respect to being able to ensure that we have the policy frameworks in place. So that we can can get beyond these challenges with respect to moving through the regulatory frameworks. And at the same time, we need to make sure that we get the financing and the financials in place. I mentioned that RBC report, the title of the report, this year was double or treble, they estimate that we should be investing to be able to meet our aspirations, we should be investing at a rate of about $60 billion a year, in clean energy on an annual basis, were investing at a rate of barely 20 billion a year. So we need to more than double, almost triple the investment that we're putting in place to be able to meet those those targets. It's interesting, it's very consistent with the recent plan that Hydro Quebec came up with, to meet its 2035 objectives, it's estimating that it's going to close, you know, close to triple its capital investment to be able to to meet those. So we're well below what needs to be invested. And part of the problem is, is this, you know, we had a culture of, of no, you know, we we kind of have the technology to be able to do this. And we have, you know, the the financing, there are people who were are willing to invest in this space, because this is a good space to invest in. We have, you know, commitments and agreements in terms of what the overall target is that just that we seem to have set ourselves up with, you know, overall regulatory frameworks, that that slow things down. And by the same token, you know, we're waiting on final details for, you know, some of the financial incentives the Government of Canada has promised, like the investment tax credits, we're still waiting for the final details on that. And, and this is stuff that was promised almost two years ago. Trevor Freeman 24:12 Yeah. And I mean, these projects are not quick projects, they're not short projects, they take a long time to get off the ground. So every absolutely moment that's lost as an impact. There's a lot to pick apart and what you just said, and I there's a few things I want to pull on that maybe to start with, is anybody getting it right, right now in Canada? That's like a Canada just specifically, is this going well, anywhere in terms of getting projects up and running and off the ground? Francis Bradley 24:36 Well, our our focus as it associations is at the national level. And so at the national level, no, we're not getting it. Right. You know, there's a number of things that we need to do to be able to improve this and some things that we've been, we've been asking for so you know, like in terms of some some concrete steps at a national level. We need to coordinate federal impact assessments and project permitting through a central federal office. Again, this is something that that has been proposed, but isn't there. Second, we need to build capacity of regulators to deliver on our netzero goals and their decisions. They need to do prompt to so promptly they need to do it effectively. And third, you know, there was a one project, one assessment framework that the federal government promised in budget 2023. And then it promised that again, in budget 2024, that would be great to see that coming forward, like in this year's Federal Budget, it was teased, that, you know, many of the things that we would like to see are going to be addressed. But, you know, how long is it going to take? And, you know, are we actually going to be able to, to see some of those things implemented and implemented in a timely manner are open questions. And I've been I've been in front of parliamentary committees trying to get some of the move forward, some of the budget implementation details like the investment tax credits, move forward, but they we don't have all of the investment tax credit details yet in front of us much less moving them forward. And, and the clock is ticking, you know, that we keep getting closer and closer to to our targets, and we haven't made it any easier to get projects built. Trevor Freeman 26:32 You mentioned regulatory hurdles as one of those obstacles. What are you talking about when it comes to regulatory hurdles? I mean, like you said, you kind of focus at the national level, there's the provincial level. Talk us through what some of those hurdles are. Francis Bradley 26:44 Sure. Okay. Well, let me let me let me start with the the Impact Assessment Act, it's it's one of the biggest examples, frankly, of what up until now has been a culture of No, and this isn't a knock on the the individuals involved. It's just how the legislation is structured and how it works. Electricity, infrastructure projects are logistically complex, they require long lead times, they can take years to design to build construct. And that's even outside of the government approval process. At the current rate of regulatory approvals, new projects may take as much as 10 or more years to complete the, you know, the Federal provincial and territorial impact assessment processes, and obtain those relevant regulatory permits from various governments and regulators, you know, in Florida to have like, fully decarbonize, and, you know, double it grid capacity in a little over 25 years. This is going to be a challenge if it's going to take us a decade to get through these these processes. So when we were researching our state of the industry this year, we did a search of the open applications on the impact assessment act's website, what we found is that six projects, including electricity projects have been suspended indefinitely, because the information gathering effort to proceed with the federal Impact Assessment were enough to force a pause on the process. So it's possible that some proponents might reengage with the process, but what we found was that the paper exercise associated just the paper exercise with the impact assessment was enough of a deterrent to cancel or you know, otherwise viable projects, including, you know, in one case building a natural gas and hydrogen fueled electricity generating facilities and hydroelectric facilities. If just the time to go through the Paperchase is so long. This is problematic and something that needs to be addressed now, we're we have a revisions and amendments that have been introduced to the Impact Assessment Act as a result of the Supreme Court decision. I have appeared before parliamentary committee a couple of weeks ago, to speak specifically about that, and in hopes that we're actually going to see this move forward in a more of a timely fashion. But it was made clear by one of the other representatives that was giving evidence to the committee that that their expectation, this is from another province, their expectation is that they will once again be challenging this version of the Impact Assessment Act. So So even that creates further uncertainty. And just the uncertainty, the last thing that the business wants to be able to make generational investments is, you know, a stable, uncertain environment within which to operate. Trevor Freeman 29:41 So, on that topic of investment, you talk about the need for major investment in both transmission and distribution infrastructure. And just as a reminder for our listeners, that's the poles and the wires and the transformers. That's the real hardware of the electricity system. Those are already really big buckets. So help us understand I got a couple questions around this, you know, what kind of investment are we talking about? Is it building more of those poles and wires? Is there something else in there? What size of investment? I mean, you mentioned $60 billion and clean energy. And who should be making this investment? Who are we looking to hear to be making this investment? Francis Bradley 30:20 Yeah, I mean, that these are these, these are great questions in terms of what the investments are going to look like. And so, you know, we're looking at, as I said, earlier, doubling, doubling the grid, we're going to need at least two times more kilowatt hours when we get to the future. So you know, that's the level of investment that we need to be thinking about. There have been different organizations that have tried to kind of get a scope and scale of what that actually looks like, again, I mentioned the the RBC climate Institute. Last year, it had a study that came out, and I believe they, they paid this, I think it was $2 trillion, was the was the amount that they expected this to cost. Where's the money coming from? Well, you know, that's a really good question. And it's one that we've been engaging in for a number of years now. And, you know, not to be a little too much. I'll try. I'll try not to be like totally pedantic on this. But, you know, if you, if you consider, from a public policy standpoint, if if we believe that expanding the electricity system is necessary to decarbonize the Canadian economy, then essentially, what you're saying is that expanding the electricity system is a public good. from a, from an economic theory standpoint, if it's a public good, well, then it is something that should be borne by that taxpayer, not the ratepayer. Right. And so, you know, part of this discussion is, who needs to bear the costs for building out a clean non emitting electricity system, so that the rest of the economy can decarbonize? Should it be the electricity customer? Or are there parts of this, this core infrastructure that, that are regarded as a public good, and it's something that is paid for by the taxpayer, you know, and we see this in, in, in other sectors, other sectors as well, where, you know, certain things are perceived to be public good, and they're taxpayer supported. And we saw a bit of a recognition and a realization that this made sense to a degree in the federal government's budget in 2023, where, you know, they essentially pledged, one in every $8, in new spending was going to go to clean electricity projects through a variety of needs, you know, the investment tax credits, the candidate infrastructure bank, a number of funding mechanisms. So I mean, that those kinds of dollars from the federal government was a commitment to building infrastructure that that really is unheard of, at a national level since the Second World War. So you know, it really kind of moved clean energy and electrification into the category of well, I guess it's a public good, because, you know, there's a recognition that if the federal government wants to achieve these policy objectives, it needs to put some federal dollars in there. So, you know, that determination is, and whether it's a public good or not, as has been made in favor of the taxpayer versus the rate payer. Now, again, you know, you could easily say, Well, hang on a second, the rate payer, the taxpayer, the same person, except that it doesn't quite work the same way. We, you know, do do we want to attach to the customers bills, every single customer, that the cost of, you know, this, this expansion of our infrastructure or not, and, you know, electricity bills, are not something that, that, that fall, as taxes do disproportionately on those that are more wealthy. Right. And so, it's a little more fair. Now, you know, in terms of the specific investments, you know, I think, I think exactly how this is going to happen, and how it's going to roll out, those details are still being worked out by by some of our members, but I do want to highlight that, you know, the, the approach here, that we're seeing from the government, which we appreciate, is, you know, a one that is so far technology agnostic, which we think is the right way to go. So, you know, there isn't like a right way or a wrong way to generate electricity. So, you know, the future that we see is going to be an all of the above future, that will encompass wind and solar and nuclear and traditional hydro and, and, and hydrogen and carbon capture and storage. And more, not only does that give us, you know, the greatest flexibility and gives us the ability to to balance different types of generation of dispatchable versus non dispatchable. But it also gives us you know, overall, a far more flexible system. So, you know, That's the what the future is going to look like. So to, you know, to, to give you the short answer, it'll be all of the above, and it'll be probably $2 trillion. Trevor Freeman 35:08 What's the role of private equity and all of this? Francis Bradley 35:10 Oh, I mean, it's going to have, it's going to have to play a significant role, that there's no doubt about it. And in fact, that's one of the things that are BC has pointed their finger at when they when they identify the lack of investment right now, in this space, they note that the vast majority of it is public money. And the vast majority of that public money right now is federal public money. And so what they have said is they expect that there's going to have to be significantly more dollars coming from different levels of government, but also from private private investment and private investors as well. And this kind of a, you know, this is good news and bad news on that. I mean, the good news is, you know, their sense is that if we get the economics and the policy environment, right, that it won't be a problem, attracting capital. On the one hand, on the other hand, man, we're competing, you know, we're not an island here, and like, even now, where it's been taking us such a very long time to get the investment tax credit regime in place, and it's not in place yet. Whereas south of the border, the inflation Reduction Act, was developed and rolled out in short order. And what I'm concerned about is that, you know, people that want to invest in clean energy projects, I mean, I don't want to hear the sucking sound of those investment dollars flowing from Canada into the United States. But, you know, there has been more private investment in this space in the US than in Canada, because they've already established the regime that this is going to discuss, you know, production tax credits and, and, and other mechanisms. And we're still working out the details on ours. But yeah, you know, everything that we've heard is, there's a great deal of appetite, so long as we get things sorted out, as long as we get it, right. And that's why, by the way, one of the other things that's interesting for us as an association, is because our members are of, you know, a wide variety of types, a number of my members are investor owned companies. And so, you know, some Canadian companies that have become international players and international leaders, so, you know, Nova Scotia Power, it's now under a holding company called Amera, that is a major player, there's all of the Fortis companies, for US companies are our major players internationally. Afco is one of our members, and they're a big international player, you know, Transalta, again, you know, there's these are very significant players, capital power. So these are all all members of our organization. But it also gives us an ability to kind of get some insight into, into what the business looks like, for private investors as well. And, yeah, you know, what, what we're seeing and what we're hearing us, we need to get the policy, environment and the regulatory environment, right, because that right now is proving to be a barrier. And it's not just not just not not just us saying, you know, they'll see that reflected in other reports, including the RBC report where they talk about these the same sorts of things. And, you know, there's a recent reliability report by the North American Electric Reliability corporation that they've mentioned, as well, you know, one of the risks it sees over the longer term is, is a risk with respect to policy, and lack of policy and bow policy alignment. Trevor Freeman 38:40 I think I mean, you bring up the inflation Reduction Act, that highlights the value of policy in the setting of the stage to allow for the types of investment and the types of projects that we need going forward and the critical role that governments and policymakers can play there. And actually, my previous guests, and I talked quite a bit about policy. So that's timely. When we talk about these major investments, and you start talking about these major dollar values. You know, you're no stranger to this, I'm sure, electricity prices, the cost of electricity is a sensitive subject and has been for some time now across the country in many different jurisdictions. We often look at as a distribution company, Hydro Ottawa, we look at what we call our social licence. And that's not a term that's unique to the electricity sector, to essentially the the permission our customers give us to operate our business. As we look at these investments, as we look at the amount of dollars that have to be invested in our in our sector and our industry. We know that there's an affordability crisis in Canada right now, lots of people are struggling with cost of living. And those two things can seem at odds. So I want to get your thoughts on how do we continue to hold on to that social licence that we have and in fact grow it and build it because electricity as we know it and your utility as you know it are going to be Change. And how do we get people on board with that, while still making the level of investment that we're talking about here? Francis Bradley 40:06 Okay. All right. So, you know, I kind of touched on this a couple of times. But know, first and foremost, the energy transition, if you will, as I noted earlier, can't be paid exclusively by the ratepayers right? At be, you know, this is this is an overall objective that we have. And so, you know, the the infrastructure built is so large, that it needs to be certainly parts of it need to be paid through the tax system, and that that is progressive in a way that, that that rates are not progressive to begin with them, you know, but boy addressing vulnerable customers absolutely critical. You know, there's a variety of things that that could be tried, you know, in the United States that there's a Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program, that it helps keep families safe and healthy through initiatives that assist families with energy costs this, I think they call it the LIHEAP provides federally funded assistance, to reduce the costs associated with home energy bills, energy crises, weatherization, and minor energy related home repairs. So you know, a similar initiative in Canada, could be there to assist the the most vulnerable, you know, as as, as you're aware that, you know, your your, your most vulnerable customers are the ones that have the least capacity to do things like weatherization. And so, you know, there's an example of a national program that we could look at as a model. You know, one of the other is let's, let's try not do dumb things at the same time from a public policy standpoint. And one of the areas that we've been lobbying and has been something called the excessive interest and financing expenses limitation, we call it Eifel. And now it is not going to impact your customers, but in some jurisdictions of this country, it is actually going to bite the customer. So this is a this is a change in financial rules that will limit the amount of interest paid interest expenses that can be deducted from taxable income for existing and new borrowings. Now, it sounds complex, but basically every dollar that is denied interest, it winds up getting passed on to the customers, and it increases the cost of capital. Now, it only affects a smaller number of jurisdictions in this country. But you know, in the US and the UK and other countries, they have exemptions for this role. So they don't apply to utilities, but it will apply to to utilities here in Canada. And so like, right now, the only exemption offered to this is for investments in rental housing, which, you know, we see, but you know, that that's a, that is a program that some of your listeners though, not the hydro Ottawa customers will will likely be aware of, but you know, there's also an important role for energy efficiency and conservation programs in this space, right? You know, energy equity programs, thermostat installations, insulation rebates, and direct install for low income customers, they all help people to reduce their energy costs consumption and, and help them reduce their energy bills. But you know, you're absolutely right, we need to make sure that we keep our eye on the most vulnerable as we go through this transition. And there are ways that we can do that. And there, there are examples like that program I talked about in the US, even at a national at a federal level, where there are programs that we could put in place. Trevor Freeman 43:39 Yeah, we do have I mean, there's, like you say, there's national programs that could be rolled out, we do have more local programs and Ontario, there are some assistance for low income customers that that we can support on the electricity bills. Federally, we've seen that investment in kind of on let's call it the supply side, helping helping homeowners access capital for low carbonization upgrades. So whether that's weatherization or putting heat pumps in, you know, the current program is oversubscribed and pause as a result, but seeing more of that and more directed to electricity specifically, I think would be would be great. When it comes to emerging technologies, so things like energy storage, smart grids, shaping the future of our sector, and let's break that apart a little bit. Let's talk about that at the macro level first. So kind of the grid level, and then we'll talk about it maybe on a behind the meter on the customer side of things. What do you see the role is for these new emerging technologies? Francis Bradley 44:40 Right. Well, you know, I mean, you know, as I said, as I said earlier, I think the the future is going to be an all of the above approach. And emerging technologies absolutely are going to be a critical part of this. But you know, we need to be realistic too. So you know, there's technologies that that may be able to replace fuel base generation but they're not yet commercially available, and they're dependent upon supply chains that are not yet at scale. So, you know, there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic, for example, about the role that small modular reactors are going to play or the battery storage will play in our electricity nicks out to 2050. But is it realistic to assume that they'll be deployed on a large scale between now and 2035? You know, we need to look at both the the medium term and the long term solutions. And so I think a lot of these technologies hold a great deal of promise, when talking about a 2050 timeframe, the 2035 timeframe is a little bit more more challenging, you know, one of the emerging technologies I mentioned in a minute ago, small modular reactors. And so, you know, we we see, Ontario Power Generation moving very aggressively hoping to complete their build by 2028. Get to grid by 2029. But, you know, if you happen to be Saskatchewan, and you're hoping that small modular reactors will be your solution over the longer term, you may not be in the 2035 timeframe. So, you know, that's, that's the challenge there. So I have a great deal of confidence in our ability to develop those technologies. And I think there's going to be some huge advantages as well, right? I look back, because I've been around the sector long enough to, you know, the early days of, you know, candu and the build out of the CANDU reactors, principally in Ontario, but although, you know, we have a plant operating in New Brunswick, and we did have one in Quebec for a time, but we built an ecosystem to support that as well. And, you know, I'm very bullish on our ability to develop these new technologies, hopefully develop them here in Canada, and develop the ecosystems and the supply chains here in Canada, not only to the benefit of sort of Canadians and Canadian customers, but I think, you know, much like can do this could be technology that we'd be able to, to market around the world. So small modular reactors, carbon capture, you know, this is there's so much work that's being done in this space, that, that, that I'm confident that they will be important technologies, and they will be important for our supply in the future. We just need to be realistic about when we can rely on them. Because you know, that the one thing that that we can never sacrifice, of course, is the reliability of the system that's customer will never accept that. Trevor Freeman 47:35 Yeah, of course, we're so intertwined. I mean, everybody that's listening knows this. This isn't any kind of insight, but we're so intertwined that yeah, we can't sacrifice that reliability. And it does, it touches on this idea that we have the technology that we need today, in the in the sort of near and medium term to get going on this stuff. And we're already going on this stuff. And then there are these nascent technologies that some of them may succeed, some of them may not, but we, we do need to invest in those. And we need to figure out which one of those is going to help us in that sort of medium to long term to get over that last 5, 10, 15%. Who knows what, but help us get there? What about on the sort of smaller scale behind the meter side of things when we talk about these emerging technologies? So distributed energy resources, you know, solar storage at the home level? Do you see that playing a big role in how we move forward here? Francis Bradley 48:32 Yeah. Like not tomorrow or next week? But you know, when you when you're looking over the longer term? Absolutely, I mean, I think, you know, we're already seeing changes in terms of how the customer interacts with the, with the supplier, in some jurisdictions, where, you know, you'll look at, you'll look at Hawaii, you'll look at Australia, where we see massive penetration of rooftop solar, for example. But what what that's given us is, it's given us the ability to get insights in terms of how that change in the relationship between the supplier and the customer that's going to evolve. Absolutely, and it is clearly something that, you know, as we've seen, in in, in those jurisdictions, that there is a, there's a significant amount of interest in, in in pursuing this. And there's a great deal of interest when the opportunity arises on the part of customers to be able to access technologies that allow them to feel like they they have more agency, sort of in the relationship and how they relate to electricity. So yeah, absolutely. When you when you go out to, you know, the longer term, distributed generation rooftop solar mine, I'm a, you know, an EV driver now, but like 10 years from now, you know, hopefully we will have figured out how to use vehicle to grid. You know, again, you know, when I talk about it you're going to need two to three times more kilowatt hours. I'm not saying we necessarily need two to three times more generation, because a lot of these technologies are going to give us the ability to have a more flexible, and more efficient electricity system. And a number of those are at the customer level. So you know, if you think of an electric vehicle, that is probably charging 2% of the time, or 4%, of the time, and the rest of the time when it's not being driven, it's plugged in. And that's a I've got an 82 kilowatt hour battery, that, you know, at some time in the future, me and all of my neighbors will have 82 kilowatt hour batteries. And so like how many megawatts on my block that that we could tap into, that can not only give the customer the ability to, as I say, have more agency in the relationship, but man the kind of flexibility we'd get for the distribution system operators, to be able to tap into that the greater resilience that we would have. So you know, that's just one example of a technology that that I think holds a huge amount of promise and that one aint pie in the sky, because I'm driving around with with a 82 kilowatt hour battery today. Trevor Freeman 51:11 Yeah. And I mean, the other side of that is also happening, the utilities are getting ready for that, and putting in the foundation and the building blocks that we need now, to do what you just described, to be able to look out there in our service territory and say, what are all the assets that I can use not just the incoming power from the grid, not just our switches and transformers? But what are all the assets that I can call on? And how do I incentivize this customer to do this behavior? You know, a couple episodes ago, we talked about what's our grid modernization roadmap, and it is designed very much around that, that capability. So I mean, that was a bit of a loaded question. I'm, that's kind of the answer I was expecting. For sure. But yeah, that's something that we're super keen on and super interested in. So Francis, as we kind of wrap up today, you know, maybe sum up some of the major steps that you want to see us take nationally in terms of policy to get out of this culture of No, as you call it. And into the you know, getting to yes, that towards the name of your report. Francis Bradley 52:15 Sure. Okay. So to get to that place, we would have that one project, one assessment framework that's been promised in two consecutive federal budgets, we'd have it and we'd have it up and running, we have significant changes to the Impact Assessment Act, we would have a clean electricity strategy. That's been one of the things that, that we've been asking of the federal government for the past several years, you know, we have similar strategies, we've got a national strategy for hydrogen, we've got a national strategy for minerals, we've got, you know, national strategies in a whole bunch of areas. We had a commitment last year by the federal government to have a national strategy for for clean electricity. So we're hoping to see that this year, we would engage indigenous communities at the start of a process and we'd work to split equally in favorable ways like Hydro One, and for desync have done in Ontario. And we would have collaboration at all levels of government, federal, provincial, indigenous, as well as regulators. That would be that would be my wish list. Trevor Freeman 53:11 That's, that's no small list. Well, Francis, it was really great talking to you today. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions. So if you're ready, I'll dive right into that Francis Bradley 53:22 A series of questions. Uh oh. Okay Trevor Freeman 53:24 We'll see how you do here. What is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Francis Bradley 53:30 Okay, well, it is a book that I have not read yet. I've just begun reading it because somebody pointed me in this direction. So I just got it. It's called the parrot and the igloo. And that the subtitle is climate and the science of denial. It is a it is a sofar, a very, very interesting book by the author David Lipski. So, I've just started reading this, but so far, it's proving to be a really great read. Trevor Freeman 54:03 If our listeners can hear me typing here, every once in a while, actually, you know, maybe half the time I hear about a book that I haven't come across yet. So I'm taking notes here. That's a good one. Francis Bradley 54:12 There you go. Yeah, the parent and the igloo. Trevor Freeman 54:15 So same question, but what's a movie or a show that you would recommend? Francis Bradley 54:19 Oh, okay. Well has nothing to do with energy or electricity or climate change. But But Mad Man. the I think the greatest the greatest series that they did ever been produced and television. Love it. Yeah. I wish I would have been there. They just seem to be such weird and creative meetings that they that they wind up in terms of figuring out the advertising back in the 1960s. Trevor Freeman 54:42 Yeah, totally. There's, there's no shows out there that you can go back to several times, if not indefinitely, and that's, that's certainly one of them Francis Bradley 54:49 that's one of the ones for me. Trevor Freeman 54:50 Yeah. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go, if you could offset the carbon Francis Bradley 54:59 I would I would, I would go to Ireland, I had been planning a trip to Ireland in April 2020. With with two of my kids. It never happened that we've never been so, you know, one one side of our family the roots go back there. But I have never been so it would absolutely be to Ireland. Trevor Freeman 55:22 Very cool. It is amazing how many times I hear that sort of there's those 2020 2021 trips that were planned that never happened. Yeah. are on the list for everybody. That's great. Who is someone that you admire? Francis Bradley 55:36 Niko Tesla. Yeah, Tesla, who is I think one of the real unsung heroes of the of the past, you know, people know all about, you know, Edison and Westinghouse. But very few people know about Tesla. And and I think I think he had significantly more patents than either either of those two guys. Everybody knows the car, but very few people know the man. Trevor Freeman 56:03 Okay, so last question, what is something that you are excited about when it comes to the energy sector and its future? Francis Bradley 56:10 Everything Trevor Freeman 56:11 Great The future is bright. I mean, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else right now. Specifically, you asked about the energy sector, but specifically electricity, I'm, I'm really looking forward to the future. You know, I talk a lot about, you know, we're going to have to build in the next 25, 26 years, a system that is twice as large as the system we had, you know, 120, 130 years ago. But if you look at how much a society has changed, because of electrification in the past century, society is well is going to change even more significantly, in the next 25 years. As we move forward. And we double, I'm really, you know, it's just like everything about what's going to happen in the sector. And, and, and our utilization and the new technologies that will, we'll have access to is, I find it endlessly fascinating to see what that future is going to look like I'd listened 15 years ago, nobody had iPhones and iPads, and all of these new technologies. And we used to have to watch TV shows when they were scheduled. And, and, you know, when I started working back in the day, if you if you wanted money, it would be cash, and you'd have to go to the bank. And if you didn't get there by Friday afternoon, you were stuck for the weekend. So yeah, you know, now I pay everything with my with my watch, right? Yeah, it's not even a tap. I just, I just use the watch. And so like, what's going to change in the next 25 years? It's going to be endlessly fascinating. It does feel like it, you know, and I've been in this industry a little while now. And it seems like the rate of change, specifically on climate on the energy transition on decarbonizing feels like it's picking up speed and getting momentum, and people are kind of getting behind it, not to say we've solved all the problems, but Right. That's the optimistic piece for me that I look at and say, Yes, stuff is happening. And this is a really cool spot to be I agree. Francis Bradley 58:16 Absolutely. Trevor Freeman 58:16 Well, Francis, this is a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your insights with us. And this was number two on the podcast, so I'm sure there'll be a third at some point. Francis Bradley 58:25 Excellent. Thanks a lot, Trevor. It was great to chat with you take care. Trevor Freeman 58:28 Yeah. Thanks. Francis Bradley 58:29 Cheers. Trevor Freeman 58:31 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com

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Get to the bottom of how policy is ushering along the energy transition. In part two of the series, Associate Professor Nicholas Rivers shares how energy policies are helping shape the actions taken to address climate change. From decarbonizing buildings and transportation to the hard-to-tackle parts of Canada’s economy and its major industries. Plus policy’s role in supporting distributed energy and resources. Dive back into the conversation in episode 139 of thinkenergy.

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● Listen to part one: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/energy-policy-deep-dive-with-nicholas-rivers-part-1/

● More about Nicholas Rivers: https://uniweb.uottawa.ca/members/969

● uOttawa Institute of the Environment: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/environment

● The Canadian Climate Institute: https://climateinstitute.ca/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcrpit:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone, welcome back. Okay, so this is part two of my conversation with Nicholas rivers about policy, and specifically how policy is and will in the future, shaping the different solutions and different actions that we can take to address climate change and to usher along the energy transition that has already started. As a refresher, Nicholas rivers is a Professor of Public Policy and International Affairs from the University of Ottawa. And his area of focus is really the sort of research into an evaluation of environmental policies. So this is a great conversation. And if you haven't listened to the previous episode with Nicolas, I really encourage you to do that it kind of lays the groundwork and really helps feed into this part of the conversation. On today's episode, we're going to talk about decarbonizing buildings, decarbonizing transportation, about some of those hard to tackle parts of our economy, kind of those major industries, as well as the role of policy and supporting distributed energy resources. So solar panels and batteries and things like that. So it's really a great conversation, start with the previous episode, if you haven't already. And then thanks for joining us here for this one. And happy listening. Okay, so we've talked about generation at the grid level, but let's talk about what we call distributed energy resources. And for our listeners, just a reminder, this is things like rooftop solar behind the meter storage, so having batteries at homes or businesses, which we are going to need a lot more of in the future. And we're going to see a lot more of on our grid in the future. What policy tools are out there that could help ramp up the implementation of these resources? Is it as simple as you know, incentives to lower the upfront cost?

Nicholas Rivers 02:21

Okay, good question. Maybe I'll just start out by giving some broader perspective about why we why we might want to go down the distributed energy route. So as you mentioned, a distributed energy resources are things like rooftop solar, right on the kind of residential building or a battery pack in the garage of your residential building. And this is a different approach than the way we normally approach the electricity sector, where our generation and storage infrastructure to the extent we have any is centralized, right. So in a centralized system, if it's solar, it would be a big utility scale solar project in a field somewhere, or now we're starting to see the ISO just approved a bunch of battery storage projects that are going to be you know, big centralized resources, really big batteries, or it could be pumped hydro, or you know, compressed air storage that that are not in someone's garage, they're, you know, these big sites that are that are well away from people's homes typically. So why would we want to change the paradigm and, and go towards this kind of decentralized type of approach where the where the resources are in people's homes or on people's homes? I'd say there was a couple of reasons we might want to go that route. One is that the distributed resources if they're in people's homes, well, they're close to the demand. Right? So if people you know, ultimately, the reason we have electricity generation is to meet people's and industries demands for electricity. And putting those resources right at the source of demand means that we don't need so many wires to connect the resources to the to the demand centers, and potentially that there's less congestion on the wires and, and less losses getting from the source of supply to the source of demand. So that's one reason. Another big reason I think, that will become more important in some areas of the world and more important as we scale up decarbonisation is land use, and then, you know, we got all these rooftops that are just sitting there. And putting solar panels on those, basically wasted surfaces is a way of conserving land as opposed to to putting new solar panels in a field that has other uses. So I see that as being a potentially really important reason why we might go down that decentralized route. It's important to say that land use constraints are not binding in Ontario today for for, especially for zero carbon resources, right? There's we're lucky in Ontario that we've got a fair amount of land per person. And we've also not got that many solar or wind or battery resources currently. And so the pressure that we're putting on our land from those types of centralized resources are pretty small. But certainly as we try to go further on that decarbonisation route, thinking about land constraints is going to be important. I would say that there is a downside to going the decentralized route. And that's that it's more costly. So generating electricity at a home, is storage of storing electricity at home is typically quite a bit more expensive than doing it at a utility scale, in a in a kind of centralized manner. And that's just because, you know, a solar panel cost what a solar panel costs. So you're getting, I think, the same basic solar panel, solar module, and a centralized system, compared to a decentralized system. But all the side costs, the cost of planning and installing, and all the racking that has to go for solar panels, same with batteries, is a lot more expensive, when it's done kind of on these boutique, individual roof projects, compared to what it's done in a centralized approach. And so what we're gonna do as we think about, you know, do we go down this more decentralized route or more centralized route? So we've got to think, are these land benefits and the benefits we get from having the resources close to the demand? Are they outweighing the extra cost that we're paying from, from going this more decentralized route?

Trevor Freeman 02:25

Yeah, so it's kind of an economies of scale question of obviously, investing in the infrastructure for a large scale solar installation gives you that, you know, more bang for your buck on a kilowatt hour basis, then each individual rooftop project, but I guess there's that aspect of, you know, customer control and customer preference of, you know, I like the idea of having my own power generated on my roof, it gives me some control, it gives me some redundancy. It also kind of protects and let me know what your thoughts on this it. It locks me into cost for energy, at least for a portion of my energy for the life of that equipment, rather than sort of being at the whim of rising utility costs over time. Is that a fair assessment?

Nicholas Rivers 07:15

Yeah, I think that's right. Solar panels and batteries, both have a free long lifetime. So once you've paid for them, you know, what you paid, and you're going to be able to amortize them over the length of the investment. Of course, that assumes that you're going to be living in the same house for the 20 or 30 years of the investment.

Trevor Freeman 07:31

Exactly. Yeah.

Nicholas Rivers 07:32

So I think there is still a risk there. But I do agree with you that it does put more control in individuals hands more, it gives people an ability to kind of choose their own destiny with respect to energy, it allows them to make a zero carbon investment that, you know, they maybe feel really strongly about, and that isn't being made on their behalf at the central level. So I think you're right that it does give more autonomy to households.

Trevor Freeman 07:58

Yeah. And the current way that we I guess, sort of funder incentivize, if you will, on rooftop solar, for example, is just through the rates, so you're offsetting your rates. And that is how you get your payback on your panels. I know you and I have chatted previously about the model in Australia. Can you tell us a little bit about how they've approached this?

Nicholas Rivers 08:20

Yeah. So, South Australia also uses this net metering approach. So basically, net metering means when you're consuming electricity, you can think of like an old analog meter, the meters running one direction. And then when you generate electricity, and return it to the grid, when you're not using as much as you're generating, the analog meter runs the opposite direction. Of course, these meters aren't analog anymore. They're digital, but they're allowing you to kind of reverse the meter at times when you're generating.

Trevor Freeman 08:50

Yep.

Nicholas Rivers 08:51

South Australia has been a real leader in getting solar on people's rooftops. Now, you might think, oh, it's super sunny in South Australia, and it is super sunny in South Australia. So it makes sense to have solar in people's rooftops. But there are lots of areas in the world that are super sunny, that have had not nearly the success that South Australia has had in putting solar on rooftops. And I would think one of the big reasons is, is program design. So they have designed a program that makes it really easy to access the program and access the incentives that are part of the program, and that lets household navigate it pretty seamlessly. So my understanding of the program is it's an incentive, which is the typical way we we kind of provide incentives for people to to undertake these novel technologies. It provides households with a you know, an upfront payment for for putting solar on the roofs. But I think that the real trick is that it's not provided to the household. And there's not an onerous application process that happens. It's provided to the to the companies that install solar panels on people's roofs and they pass through the incentive. Have to the household. So all of the paperwork and the planning is undertaken by the company. And the household, basically, just, as my understanding just says, Yeah, I want some solar panels on my roof. And, you know, tomorrow the solar panels are on the roof. And they don't have to go through the kind of extensive paperwork and the qualifying and the waiting for the, the incentive to be paid. It's all done upfront. And it's all done with a minimum of paperwork.

Trevor Freeman 10:23

Yeah, so from a homeowner perspective, in Canada versus in South Australia, South Australia is just seeking a much cheaper cost for solar, they don't have to jump through the hoops. That's all kind of done taken on by the government and by the the industry.

Nicholas Rivers 10:39

Yeah, and we do have incentives for solar here. In some provinces anyway, and there have been incentives federally, but they're there, they're more onerous to apply for. And they put the homeowner in the position of having to pay for the system upfront, and then waiting for the rebate. And it's a big outlay for homeowners and the rebate is uncertain, right? You can put the paperwork in. And of course, you think you're gonna get it back. But there's always that chance that something went wrong, and you didn't do it quite right. You don't get the rebate. Yeah, there's a risk there. So I think this this kind of upfront payments program that's processed by the company is as a real, you know, something we could learn from in Canada.

Trevor Freeman 11:16

Right. So that's potentially a key role. And this may be applies to other programs, as well of, of government have policies to take on that administrative burden take on that risk, if you will, away from the end user to make it seamless and streamlined for the end user and easier to do

Nicholas Rivers 11:33

People have better things to do than think about energy. And so I think that

Trevor Freeman 11:38

Or fill out paperwork,

Nicholas Rivers 11:39

yeah, fill out paperwork, and just, you know, they don't want to spend their time, you know, trying to figure out if the incentive is going to cover their net metering benefits they wants to be they want to be added be as easy as possible.

Trevor Freeman 11:52

Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, moving along, then to transportation. This is something of course, that Canadians will be pretty familiar with. We've seen a big move toward electrifying personal vehicles, there are more EVs out there today than ever before, you know, going back into even recent memory, it seemed like a rare thing to see an EV on the road. And now it's not at all, but there's still a long way to go. As much as we've got a lot more, we still are overwhelmingly using fossil fuels for our personal transportation. What kinds of approaches will help speed that transition up? We have a federal rebate when it comes to buying electric vehicle. Is that enough? Or are there other tools that we can use to speed up that transition?

Nicholas Rivers 12:36

Yeah, we're at about 11% of new cars that are sold are electric these days, and about one and a half percent of our fleet, because it takes our fleet a long time to turnover, right. So even if we get to 100% sales, we could still be waiting another 20 years before we get to 100% of our fleet be electric. So this is not going to be something that resolves itself really quickly. Because it does take a long time to turnover and longtime for car manufacturers to change the kind of vehicles they're making. I'm convinced we're on the transition, and that it is underway no matter what we do in this sector, that that these cars will be eventually be as cheap or cheaper than internal combustion engine cars, and will deliver the range that we want and the performance that we want. We're not there yet. So So what do we do in the meantime, I would say one of the things we should be doing as governments is fixing kind of the chicken and the egg problem of electric vehicles and governments are very active in this area. But the chicken and egg problem is who wants to build a charging station if there's no electric vehicles, and who wants to buy an electric vehicle if there's no charging stations. And so I think government has been playing an active role there, although arguably, it's still behind where we want it to be. People still experienced troubles with charging electric vehicles. And reliability of chargers is an issue. It turns out that the economics of operating a charging station don't look very good. And so perhaps there needs to be more of a public role in figuring out how to get these systems up and running more of the time. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like. But, but I do think the problem isn't going to solve itself entirely on its own, especially in more remote or Northern or rural areas. This probably along a lot of role for government support for charging. In terms of a policy approach. I really like the zero emission vehicle standard. This is just a standard that says okay, manufacturers, it's targeted. The manufacturer is not a retailer or not customers. And it says manufacturers you have to sell a certain proportion of the fleet you sell is zero by zero emission by this year and a bigger percentage by this year. And that's something that Quebec and BC and California and a number of other places have implemented zero emission vehicle standard, and the Canadian federal government has announced that it's going to go the same route.

Trevor Freeman 15:05

Gotcha.

Nicholas Rivers 15:06

And so what that says is, in 2026, in Canada, major vehicle manufacturers will have to sell 20% of their fleets as electric vehicles. Were at about 11% today. And that number will ramp up every year until it hits 100% by 2035. Now, again, I think this transition is happening anyway. So I think that that will help speed up the transition. But at it, it's not dramatically different from kind of what we expect, even without that kind of policy. And so I do think that's a that's a really nice policy, because it gives automakers a target, it gives them some certainty. And it helps to ensure that they make vehicles available to Canadians where they want them.

Trevor Freeman 15:48

Yeah, I think, I mean, we've all heard those stories of people that wanted to buy an electric vehicle on it wasn't ready, or the price point wasn't there. And I think by requiring more stock, requiring those targets to be hit, it's going to help move people along in the direction that a lot of people already want to go. And we're seeing that as those numbers tick up.

Nicholas Rivers 16:08

Yeah. Let me say a little bit more about this policy, because I think it's cool. It's one of those examples, which is a regulatory policy, which has a market based or carbon pricing kind of component to it. So it's regulatory, right? I just described that manufacturers have to hit, let's say, a 20% target in the year 2026. So the rule is, if you sell a lot of vehicles in Canada, 20% of them have to be electric by 2026. But then it's got this kind of hybrid component, not a hybrid car hybrid policy. So the it's kind of, it's got a carbon price kind of built in, which says, Hey, if you can't do it, well, you can trade with some other company that can. So maybe it's going to be gonna make up some names here, maybe it's going to be that company X says, oh, you know, we're really, you know, we really don't want to make the transition quite so quickly, we're going to sell internal combustion engine cars for a few more years. And Company Y says, Well, we're actually way ahead of that curve, it's going to be able to sell some of its credits, Company Y is going to sell some credits to Company X. And so Company X could keep doing what it's doing. But pay a penalty, that company y can get a benefit from being ahead of the curve.

Trevor Freeman 17:17

Gotcha. And to the consumer, the overall stock of options is still where the government wants it to be. There's still enough electric vehicles out there that we can purchase.

Nicholas Rivers 17:27

That's right. I think I mean, the the availability is less of a concern now than it was when supply chains were all snared up during the pandemic. I think if you went out and you had the money, and you were willing to, you wanted to go buy an electric car, you would get one relatively quickly today.

Trevor Freeman 17:42

Yeah

Nicholas Rivers 17:43

That's, that's I think that was that's a legacy problem that fortunately, we don't have so much anymore.

Trevor Freeman 17:47

So I mean, that's personal transportation, we're also seeing a move to make public transportation more carbon free and more electric here in Ottawa, where I'm based where we're both based. We've seen our city make that transition to electric buses, we're bringing on you know, a portion of the fleet in the next couple of years is going to be electric buses, we've seen our new LRT system is at least partially electrified, what are some of the policies out there that are helping municipalities or operators and public transit systems make this shift from traditional fossil fuel systems?

Nicholas Rivers 18:27

Yeah, so this is a procurement policy. So it's government saying, we're going to create a new market for this technology that doesn't really exist yet. And help to drive drive technology along right. So this is something we talked about a little while ago. And I think that this will help, you know, these these vehicles, big vehicles with heavy duty cycles. There's certainly parallels in kind of goods transport. So having some of that kind of exposure to new deployment in the public sector, I think will help with decarbonizing goods transport later on. So this is one of the cases where governments kind of creating this niche role for each policy or niche, I guess, nice role for this technology to be deployed first. And it's accepting the higher cost of these policies of these technologies initially, and will help drive down the costs as they get some experience with these technologies. Okay, so what's it what's it doing in Ottawa? Ottawa has promised to not buy any more fossil fuel buses, it's gonna slowly transition its bus fleet to electric. And I guess that's a procurement policy. It's supported by funds from the federal government. So the Canadian infrastructure bank supports this policy. And so the way that it works is the federal government's pay the additional cost that the electric bus costs relative to a normal diesel bus, and the city just pays the same as it would for the normal diesel boss with the feds picking up the rest of the tab.

Trevor Freeman 19:58

Right

Nicholas Rivers 19:58

The city's original expense. response has been really positive, it's found that maintenance costs are lower that fuel costs are lower, and the performance is at least as good in the electric buses compared to the, to the diesel buses. So it's experiencing a cost savings. And at least in the initial reporting, this seems like a really positive experience.

Trevor Freeman 20:17

So it's essentially the policy there is helping buy down that initial upfront jumping costs. So that, you know, yeah, municipal budgets can remain the same.

Nicholas Rivers 20:26

Exactly.

Trevor Freeman 20:26

But we get that better technology, and we're moving forward on our emissions reduction.

Nicholas Rivers 20:30

Yeah. So this is really a federal and and city policy.

Trevor Freeman 20:33

Gotcha. Okay, so let's talk about buildings, which are a major source of emissions, especially here in Canada, primarily because we are a cold climate, and we have to heat those buildings, or else they wouldn't be comfortable. And traditionally, this has been done with fossil fuels, you know, we burn natural gas, to heat our buildings is a large majority of Canadians. That's how they heat their space. In Canada buildings account for over 100 million tons of GHG emissions a year. So this is definitely a sector that we need to see some transition in how we approach them. What is the role of policymakers to help us decarbonize our buildings? And I want to split this question into two pieces, the first being residential buildings. And then we'll talk about commercial and institutional after because I think they're they're kind of different cases here. So let's talk about residential first.

Nicholas Rivers 21:25

Okay, residential buildings, I think heard at some of this is going to apply to both residential and commercial but of residential buildings, you're totally right to say that the big source of emissions is natural gas. And we do have other fuel uses as well like oil and propane, but the the big one is gas. And I think a special challenge for residential buildings. And it applies to commercial buildings as well, but especially residential is that they last a really long time. And then, so it's not like cars where you know, after we have got all the new cars to be zero emission, you got to wait maybe 10 or 15, or maximum 20 years, and the entire fleet is zero emission. Because cars only last 15 or 20 years buildings last, we don't even know how long they last hundreds of years. 100 years.

Trevor Freeman 22:14

Yeah, exactly.

Nicholas Rivers 22:15

And so we don't just have to tackle new buildings and then wait for them to kind of percolate through in the same way as we do for light bulbs or cars or something, we have to figure out a way to decarbonize existing buildings. And this turns out to be difficult. But let me start by saying the first thing we should do is make sure that the new buildings that we're building are not producing carbon emissions, that's the easiest thing to do. Getting a tackling a building or decarbonizing building, once it's already built, and part of the building stock is relatively difficult compared to taking a new building and designing to be zero carbon from the outset. And my view is that the best thing we can do there is to not connect new homes to the natural gas network, or at least pass the full costs of the natural gas network onto these new homes as they're built so that homeowners can make and developers can make an informed decision about the most effective way to produce those new homes.

Trevor Freeman 23:13

Yeah, I think like even that concept is something we talk about, you know, when we're working with our customers on equipment choices, as well, as you know, the decision you're making today on, you know, let's say your boiler will last with you for the life and that equipment. And in the case of a boiler, let's say that's 25 years, but to your point, in the case of a home, deciding to start down that path of fossil fuels, that building is going to live with us for you know, who knows how long and we will then have to get off those fossil fuels later. So I think for that new construction piece, yeah, that makes a lot of sense of making sure we're making the right decisions today, because we know we have to electrify

Nicholas Rivers 23:50

Right. Yeah, we do not what we don't want to do is build a gas home. And then 10 years later say, oh, let's actually make this home an electric home.

Trevor Freeman 23:58

Yeah, totally.

Nicholas Rivers 23:59

Because now we've spent twice on on one thing. So if we know we're gonna go zero emission, then we should be building new homes as zero emission homes. And we'll save money doing it.

Trevor Freeman 24:08

Yeah, and we know how to do that today.

Nicholas Rivers 24:10

We know how to do it. The harder problem is existing homes. And that's, you know, most of the homes that are around today that are part of our housing stock today will still be part of our housing stock in 2050. So we don't get to do over. We've got to tackle these existing homes. And it's relatively difficult compared to other sectors. Because if you want to take an existing home and decarbonize it, you really have to do it on a home by home basis. You have to invite you know, an auditor in and figure out what's wrong with it, or the cheapest way to decarbonize that home is most effective way to decarbonize at home, maybe get some engineers to help figure out what the interventions look like maybe gotta consultant in to put some new windows or doors or insulation or air sealing into the home and so but I adds up to a lot, a lot of people being touching the home, it's not something where we can go to a factory typically and pull out an identical component that, you know, might get cheaper over time, and strap it to the home. So I think that's part of what makes this challenge difficult. Luckily, we do have some kind of economies of scale in homes when it comes to heating systems. And this is heat pumps that can be adapted to most homes as a replacement for a furnace, or even a boiler. And Heat pumps are a technology that I think people have heard a lot more about over the last couple of years, they're basically an air conditioner that can run in reverse. So we can move heat out of a house and also move heat into a house. And these are getting more common for a cold climate, like we're in. And getting cheaper and contractors are getting more experienced with them. And so I think that we will start seeing more penetration of heat pumps in residential sector. Having said that, it's not a it's not a slam dunk. Right now, heat pumps, in some cases are cost effective compared to gas. But they're right at the margin, right? So you don't save a whole bunch of money by switching a gas furnace to heat pump. In, for example, in Ontario. Now that'll change. If our carbon price keeps going up every year, eventually, it'll it'll become something where the carbon price makes heat pumps make easy financial sense that it becomes a more straightforward decision. But right now, they're kind of similar cost to operate compared to a natural gas furnace. And so we're not seeing a whole bunch of penetration of them in Ontario.

Trevor Freeman 26:50

Yeah, I mean, I think that even even just that fact that actually, coincidentally, the previous episode on this, we actually talked about heat pumps and went through a bit of a case study with with someone that installed one, but you're right, like right now, you're kind of comparable, and your energy costs, maybe you save a little bit of kind of depends on on the rest of your context as well. But that highlights the value of the role in policy of helping to drive down that upfront cost. And by helping get more of them out there. And letting as we've talked about already, in this conversation, letting the market forces drive down the cost of heat pumps, because we're going to be putting more of them out there in the manual manufacturing process, the supply chain process, that's all going to find those efficiencies so that putting that heat pump in becomes comparable on an upfront cost basis to a furnace, for example, which today it's not.

Nicholas Rivers 27:44

Yeah, I would say the other challenge is that the whole HVAC or heating ventilation air conditioning ecosystem is set up around natural gas furnaces and natural gas water heaters in Ontario. And so the contractors are used to it, people are used to it. And it's it makes it kind of when your furnace or your hot water heater fails, and you panic a little bit because it's the winter and you don't want to get cold the next day, the easiest thing to do is to call your company and get them to put in the same thing as you've already had it's safe, you know it works. And by doing that, you've locked yourself into another 20 or 25 years of heating with natural gas. And so I think one of the things is just kind of the human dimension of this problem that heat pumps remain kind of is unconventional technology. They work really well they've been demonstrated to work really well in Ontario, but it's not widely known. And certainly the supply chain isn't there in the same way as it is for furnaces, and the contractors are, I think less comfortable with installing them as they are for furnaces. And so people get guided towards furnaces at the time of furnace failure or water heater failure. And it's only like this kind of, I think if the people that really want heat pumps that end up going towards that route right now. Because you really have to you have to want them for that to be the outcome. It's not something that's going to happen on its own. And unfortunately, in this moment of panic, you don't get the time to kind of reflect on on what you might want over the next couple of decades.

Trevor Freeman 29:25

Yeah, totally. And I've I've thought about this a little anecdote on this show before my own experience with having a furnace die in January as I was starting my research into heat pumps and ended up being able to get a heat pump but not in the manner that I wanted, not the system that I really wanted. And, and yeah, I ended up because of that, having to do all the research myself and being someone that works in the energy space. That's, you know, that's what the reality was.

Nicholas Rivers 29:50

I would say the other thing is I heat pump provides both air conditioning and heating. And it turns out that heat pump is basically cost competitive with a new furnace, and a new air conditioner. So if you if you, if you take a new house, and you either decide to put in a furnace and an air conditioner or heat pump, it's a wash, you'll pay the same for both. But very rarely does a house have a furnace and an air conditioner fail at exactly the same moment. So that they're making this kind of apples to apples comparison of a system that can provide both heating and cooling with another system that could provide both heating and cooling. And so this is like this coordination problem that heat pumps provide. And so I think when we're thinking about public policy, we should be thinking about not this kind of rational decision maker that's weighing the pros and cons of these two systems. But really, the person who's in a panic because their furnace failed in the middle of the night. And we got to think about how to make the Low Carbon solution, the easy solution for that person.

Trevor Freeman 30:50

Yeah, 100%. I mean, this goes back to the, I guess, the intro of what will be part one of this conversation that I gave and talking about, you know, the policy piece is kind of that foundation, that bedrock upon which the technological solutions the societal solutions are built, and exactly what we talked about with solar. How can we use policy to make this an easy path, make it the easiest path so that when someone doesn't want to think about it, when their furnace dies in the middle of the winter. This is the logical and easy and the path that they're going to choose.

Nicholas Rivers 31:23

Yeah, I think in many cases, choices are problematic, right? I'm a believer that that's not that's not universally true that more choices are often better. But also that we can get paralyzed by choices. So having to choose between a heat pump and a furnace is difficult for most people. Most people don't want to spend your time thinking about that. And I think, eventually, I'm of the view that we want to take a regulatory approach that we don't want to just allow everyone to be kind of deliberating especially at a panic about this choice themselves. Probably eventually, when heat pumps become good enough universally, that we want to have that be the regulated solution.

Trevor Freeman 32:02

Yeah, gotcha. Especially when to your point. It is the it becomes that clear, best choice. It's the most efficient.

Nicholas Rivers 32:09

Exactly, yeah.

Trevor Freeman 32:10

And we're working towards that we're getting

Nicholas Rivers 32:12

we're not quite there yet. There are places where heat pumps are not as effective as furnaces. And so I think that's why we haven't seen regulation in this space yet. But I think that should be an end goal.

Trevor Freeman 32:23

Gotcha. Okay, so that was residential buildings. As I said, commercial and institutional are kind of a different beast altogether. These are bigger buildings systems are bigger and obviously, more expensive ownership structure can be complicated. You have owners of buildings and tenants, you have investment companies that are sort of investing in the building as an asset as a way to make money. Help us tackle this beast, what is the role of policy and helping commercial buildings decarbonize here in Canada?

Nicholas Rivers 32:56

Yeah, good question. Again, I wouldn't say this kind of tenant and owner issue also applies if the residential sector, right, so there are renters that want to have a more efficient building, and that don't have any power to make investments in their building. So similar dynamic there, I think. I won't talk about specific technologies in the commercial sector, although there are lots of places that are experimenting with innovative new heating and cooling technologies, again, heating and cooling as the big greenhouse gas source in the commercial building sector, like it isn't residential. But I will just say that, I think the the types of decisions that are made and the way that they're made, it is quite different in the commercial sector to the residential sector. In a bigger commercial building, there'll be a building manager that's responsible for making decisions about, about heating and cooling investments in that. In that building, there'll be lots of tools that they have access to building management software, that that kind of optimizes building energy use, and costs, and helps them to make these kinds of decisions. So whereas the residential consumer doesn't necessarily want to think about what their what types of investments they should make to maximize their comfort and minimize their energy costs. That's what this building manager in a building is paid to do. And so they are going to be really thinking about this, these decisions carefully, and they're not going to be you know, they are going to be highly engaged in these decisions about what what types of energy to be using in the building. And as a result, I would say that carbon pricing can be quite effective in this sector, that policies that shift the relative costs of heating with gas compared to heating with electricity. They're going to hit the bottom line in that building manager for that building manager really quickly and allow them to kind of pivot if there are technologies available that can help them reoptimize in response to these changing prices, I will say that it's important to think about designing rebates for that carbon price. So we don't end up digging, our commercial buildings say we've we've designed rebates for, for residential households and for big industry. But I do think that this kind of pricing tool can be effective, probably more effective in the commercial sector than it can be in the residential sector. Because because there are people whose job it is to pay attention to building energy costs.

Trevor Freeman 35:31

Yeah, and I mean, you talk about rebates, I think, if there's a way to direct those rebates or direct that reinvestment into the types of solutions that are going to help people double down on the savings, and reduce their carbon consumption, and you know, then the next time around, it's even better and even better, I think that's definitely impactful.

Nicholas Rivers 35:51

Right? Yeah. So combinations of incentives and a kind of carrots and sticks approach. I agree.

Trevor Freeman 35:57

I do want to mention, and partly this is a bit of a plug here on the hydro Ottawa side of, you know, one of the initiatives that the federal government's taken on in terms of deep retrofits for commercial buildings is something they call their deep retrofit accelerator initiative. It's a program that hydro Ottawa is a part of two builds, build support services for commercial customers to identify pathways to decarbonize. So this isn't, you know, going out and paying for boilers or electric boilers or things like that, but it's helping building owners create a plan to tackle these complex, these complex retrofits. And that's something that the federal government is investing in. So I mean, for our listeners in our area, definitely keep your eyes and ears open for more information coming on that because it's early days yet. Okay, so my last question for you, Nick. And just looking at the time, I know we've we've taken a lot of time here chatting, it's been great. But I do want to touch on quickly before we wrap up, kind of what might be one of the trickiest areas, which is this idea of kind of heavy industry resource heavy industry, things like you know, the manufacturing of steel and chemicals and cement. There's a lot of emissions associated with this. They have kind of pretty unique demands in terms of high heat, high temperatures, things that are easily achieved with burning fossil fuels, maybe not so easily achieved with an electric option. What are we doing in that sense? What is the government doing to try and help those industries pursue decarbonisation?

Nicholas Rivers 37:28

Yeah, so we've kind of I'm in the the climate world climate policy world. And we have called these sectors for a long time, in quotes, the hard to decarbonize sectors, so, so it's been something where it's the kind of prevailing idea has been, let's all work on the stuff that's relatively easy today, like buildings and electricity, and vehicles. And eventually we'll find solutions for these hard to decarbonize sectors. And these are decarbonize sectors are things like cement, and steel, like you pointed out are chemicals, for example of pulp and paper, these big industrial sources, and it's not just that they require a lot of heat, or a lot of energy. In many cases, it's that carbon is released as part of the process for producing these materials. So for example, when you produce cement, I'm not a chemist here, but my understanding is you take limestone and turn it into lime as part of the cement making process. And the chemical reaction releases co2. Same thing with the typical way for making steel. You're reducing iron ore, and the reduction process that takes place in a blast furnace takes the poles the I'm gonna get in trouble here. I don't quite know what the reaction is. It releases co2 from the iron ore reduction process, in concert with coal. So they do require a lot of heat, but they're also releasing co2, just as part of the kind of process of producing these materials. So no matter how efficient they get that co2 is still coming out. And so that's part of the reason they're referred to as these hard to decarbonize sectors, I would say, Well, let me say that the thought that we've had as a community thinking about how to transition the economy is that it should be possible to do a lot of this easy stuff, almost 100% Man company easy, almost in quotes, here. decarbonizing buildings will be talked about is not actually easy. It's hard. It's easy relative to these hard to decarbonize sectors. So if we can get the easy sectors more or less decarbonized. One approach to dealing with these hard to decarbonize sectors would be to use, carbon capture and storage. So it would be to take the co2 that's coming out of these fixed processes, and capture it before it goes into the atmosphere and try The sequester it permanently, let's say in a depleted oil and gas reservoir. So that's one approach, we're also seeing a lot of a lot of innovation in this sector, away from some of these fixed process emissions. And so I'll give you an example. In Ontario, the federal and provincial governments recently put big investments into some of the steel facilities in Ontario. And these are our biggest point sources of co2 emissions in the province. These steel facilities, they're especially scattered around Southern Ontario around Hamilton. And, and they use this reduction process to to turn iron ore into steel. And then the big investments the province and federal government have put in how they are transitioning some of these steel producing facilities from from electric RBO blast furnaces to electric arc furnaces. So it will take the coal out of the process basically. And the these, these facilities when they're up and running, will produce big savings and greenhouse gas emissions. By eliminating this kind of important source of co2. We're seeing lots of innovation in the cement sector as well. So using different materials, in as part of this, the cement production. We're seeing a big project, for example, underway in Edmonton, it's a big cement facility that will have a lot of efficiencies built into it. But we'll also have CCS carbon capture and storage, it will be adapted for carbon capture and storage so that the co2 that's produced from this facility won't be released from to the atmosphere, it will be it will be sequestered underground. So I would say the role for government and these nascent, I would say projects is a direct support role to help these industries demonstrate the viability of some of these alternate pathways for producing basic materials with less carbon. And what we're seeing is government supporting these through either direct subsidies, or tax credits. And in some cases, we're seeing when these projects are starting to be produced materials, we're seeing government potentially have a role in procurement saying we're gonna buy lower carbon cement for this new set of government buildings, we're not going to source it from usual suppliers, we're going to reach out and try to create a niche market for this new cement or this new steel. So I think that's the right role. We're not at the stage yet where we can mandate these kinds of innovative technologies, because we're really just at the demonstration phase. But I would say that over the last decade, we're moving from thinking of these sectors as hard to decarbonize, to thinking maybe, to, you know, possible to decarbonize, so it initially seemed like there wasn't really a pathway and we're starting to see some light in the tunnel. Now some potential pathway for decarbonizing these sectors.

Trevor Freeman 42:58

Gotcha. Yeah, I mean, similar to how we have most, if not all the answers we need. Now, for some of those other industries, we talked about personal transportation, buildings, etc. There may come a day when we look back and say, yeah, now we've got all the answers we need for the heavy industry. It's just a matter of deploying them. But we're not there yet.

Nicholas Rivers 43:18

Exactly. We're not there yet. You know, it may turn out that these are not the hard sectors. Right, that if these technologies come along, there's only I don't know exactly the number. But let's say on the order of a dozen cement factories in Canada. So if we can figure out the technology, rolling it out to a dozen factories, institutionally is maybe not as hard a problem as rolling out building retrofits to 15 million buildings. So So right now, this seems like the hard to decarbonize sector, but maybe we'll be surprised.

Trevor Freeman 43:47

And to your point, I mean, pretty good bang for buck, maybe when we talk about just the amount of emissions from single points from these from these industries.

Nicholas Rivers 43:56

Yeah, I think the steel sector numbers in Ontario, these two facilities are we're gonna see a 3 million tonne per year greenhouse gas reduction, well, from the investments that Ontario and the feds have made in and converting them to electric arc furnace.

Trevor Freeman 44:11

Great. Well, Nick, I think that's the list of questions I had for you. So thanks very much. I really appreciate the time and your thoughts on these matters. It was great to having this conversation with you. We do always end our conversations with a series of questions that I asked all of our guests. So as long as you're ready to go, I'll jump into those.

Nicholas Rivers 44:30

Let's do it.

Trevor Freeman 44:31

What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

Nicholas Rivers 44:34

This year, I read fire weather by John Vaillant. I've read a number of his books in the past. I love the way he writes. He's a Canadian author. He writes both nonfiction and fiction. This is about the big fire that took place in Fort McMurray in 2016. And it's a nonfiction book, but it's gripping. He's such a good writer. And it's such an important thing for us to understand exactly what's happening again, this year we've seen Fort McMurray threatened just last week by wildfires. So I really recommend this book. It sounds dry. It's about forest fires, but it's not at all. It's really good.

Trevor Freeman 45:09

Yeah. Okay, great. That's a good one. Same question, but for a movie or for a show.

Nicholas Rivers 45:14

I am. I'm a pretty slow TV watcher. I don't get a ton of time. But I am watching Showgun right now and loving it. Don't tell me the end, because I'm not through. But it's excellent show.

Trevor Freeman 45:26

Yeah, so I haven't started it yet, because I read that book as a teenager and haven't read it since. So I'm rereading it right now. And then I'm gonna watch the show after

Nicholas Rivers 45:35

I didn't read it. So I'm my wish with fresh eyes.

Trevor Freeman 45:39

I remember liking it, but I can't remember kind of how it ends. So I'm as excited as you are to see the end of that. If someone was to offer you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Nicholas Rivers 45:52

Well, I am a little sensitive about flying long ways, just because of the nature of this conversation but my kids, I have a 13 year old and a 10 year old. And they're super into comics and Nintendo and really want to go to Japan. So I would go to Japan for for a few weeks with them.

Trevor Freeman 46:13

Who is someone that you admire?

Nicholas Rivers 46:15

This was hard. I set out you gave me these questions a couple of days ago. And I sat out on the front porch and the first nice day we had in a while with my wife and my kids. And I was telling them about this. And I said I was stuck on the Who do I admire? And they said, You should admire us. So I admire my kids. They're really optimistic. They're super fun. They're loving life. And I think it's a great set of characteristics.

Trevor Freeman 46:41

Yeah, that mean, that is never a bad answer. That's a great answer, and good for them for self awareness to call you out. Finally, what is something that you are excited about when it comes to the energy sector or this transition that we're in what excites you about the future where we're going?

Nicholas Rivers 47:00

Well, let me give a two pronged answer here. I'll start by saying that I'm nervous.

Trevor Freeman 47:04

Yeah

Nicholas Rivers 47:04

I think the stakes are high. We're learning more and more as a society about, you know, what climate change looks like. And it's not pretty. And the I think the big thing that we have to keep in mind, and the thing that keeps me optimistic is that we still have a lot of role to play in determining where we ended up here. And, and we're seeing really dramatic changes in Technologies, and in people's engagement and policymakers engagement on on this file. So we've talked about how fast some of the technologies have moved over the last couple of decades or decade in particular, solar and vehicles and batteries and all these things. We're also seeing policy change really dramatically, right? It would have been inconceivable to say that we would have a high carbon price and a mandate for zero emission vehicles and phase out of coal fired power and potential clean electricity regulation and an oil gas cap, and all this stuff on the books 10 years ago, and and now we're there. So I feel like not only is technology changing quickly, but the policies are also changing quite quickly. And and it looks like they're all changing in the right direction.

Trevor Freeman 48:19

Yeah, I definitely can relate to that. As someone who's been in this industry, this sector for a little while, at least, it feels like there's momentum now it feels like the pace of change is finally starting to really pick up and not where we need it to be. There's lots of work to do, as you say, but yeah, maybe we're starting to see things move a little faster

Nicholas Rivers 48:42

Yeah, exactly. So there's certainly reason for optimism. That's that's kind of guarded optimism.

Trevor Freeman 48:47

Yeah, that's a that's a fair point to end on. I think that's a good space then. Nick rivers. Thanks very much. I really appreciate you coming on the show and chatting with us today. And I've really enjoyed our conversation.

Nicholas Rivers 48:59

Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it, too.

Trevor Freeman 49:00

All right. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com

View Details

In this first of a two-part series, we unpack the vital role of policy in driving the energy transition with Nicholas Rivers, Associate Professor at the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and the Institute of the Environment at the University of Ottawa. Join us as we explore the layers of policy implementation, the interplay of social and technological solutions, and the challenge of designing policies that balance data with public opinion and emotion.

Related links

• More about Nicholas Rivers: https://uniweb.uottawa.ca/members/969
• uOttawa Institute of the Environment: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/environment
• The Canadian Climate Institute: https://climateinstitute.ca/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Energy Policy Deep Dive with Nicholas Rivers (Part 1)

Fri, May 24, 2024 11:55AM • 52:17

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

emissions, policy, carbon, price, work, canada, carbon pricing, technology, government, cost, climate change, electricity, big, emitters, action, ontario, regulations, podcast, climate, energy

SPEAKERS

Nicholas Rivers, Trevor Freeman

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone. Welcome back. We've talked a lot on the podcast about how climate change is a big complex problem. And the entity transition that is already underway is also a big complex undertaking. These things require complex solutions to address them, it's not a single thing that's going to solve this for us. You know, we often think about solutions as being some kind of technology, either an existing technology or something that we're going to innovate on or invent in the future. And we talk about a lot of those on the podcasts, everything from heat pumps, to renewable generation to grid modernization. But technology doesn't just exist and grow in a bubble. And we can't just rely on technological solutions on their own to solve climate change or to help continue the energy transition. There is also a need for other approaches, for example, Social approaches, you know, we need to educate people on what climate change is and how it works and what we need to do to change it. We need to motivate people, we need to rile up people to create that desire for change, and create the political and social will to go behind that. What are the key drivers to help advance all of these different moving parts, if you will, is policy our policy solutions, you can really think of policy as the foundation or the bedrock upon which all these other things are built. And when we talk about policy, we're talking about all different levels. So from the federal government, to provincial governments, who are municipal governments, and you know, this is the Canadian context, we're in Canada speaking about this. So if you're listening from a different country, you know, slot in your various levels of government there. Our policy solutions are what push or pull certain actions. And I'm sure we're all familiar with the sort of carrot and stick analogy. Carrots being those things dangled in front of us to help us move towards some more desirable action or desirable state sticks being you know, the sort of prod or push that are going to, you know, help push us into something or away from something else. These policy solutions are really designed to make a desirable action easier and more likely, and to make an undesirable action harder and less likely. So in the context of climate change, for example, the desirable action might be the adoption of cleaner technologies, like EVs or renewable generation, or speeding up the development and adoption of new technologies, where the undesirable action might be just the status quo like doing things, the way we've always done them, we know we need to change that's an important piece, or the undesirable action might be just the continued use of fossil fuels, we need to move away from that that's the undesirable action that's not going to help us solve climate change. And so we're going to talk about policy today. And I'll talk about our guests in a minute. But I think it's important to also remember this next piece, and that is that policy is tough. It is tough to know what will work and what won't work. It's tough to know what the thing is, that's going to really create the desired action you want, that people are going to get behind. policy can be uncomfortable, as I've said, policy prioritizes certain actions over others. And we've talked about this before Canadians and more broadly, people, we are not homogenous in the way that we think or care about things we don't always care equally about the same things. We all have different pressures and drivers in our lives. We all have different contexts in our lives, and so naturally, our priorities aren't always going to line up. And when you have a policy that is designed to prioritize certain actions over others, some portion of the population is going to disagree that that's the right priority. And in practical terms, it's usually a bunch of different portions of the population that agree or disagree in varying amounts. Policy is often designed and applied in what you might call a scientific way. So certain policy tools have expected outcomes that can be measured. There are, you know, metrics that go behind these things. But policy is often received by the general public in a very decidedly non-scientific way. In fact, we typically receive policy in a more emotional way, how we feel about some new policy really is what drives our opinion and our action around that policy. And that's more so than maybe the data will drive our opinion in our actions. In fact, the way that we look at that data is often influenced by sort of our emotion around how we feel about something. And I'm not saying that's wrong. That's kind of just human nature. And we all do it no matter what your I guess political leaning is where you fall in the spectrum. We all do this with, with policy, with the direction that our government is taking. But knowing that is helpful, and it lets us check in with ourselves against that, you know, are we really looking at things just based on the merits based on the data, or what is the emotion that we're feeling about certain things, I think that's important. So with that preamble, my guest today is here to help us pull apart the suite of policy tools that are already playing a role in helping us decarbonize and tackle climate change and some of the things that might be upcoming, or other options that are out there. And I'm gonna say off the bat that there's a lot to talk about here. This is quite a long conversation. So we're actually going to split this into two pieces. We'll have part one and part two, and kind of break it up into two different episodes so that they're a little bit easier to get through. But I'll say in advance, I appreciate you sticking through. I think this is an important topic of conversation and, and my guest today knows a lot about it. So I'm happy to have Nicholas Rivers on the podcast today. Nicholas Rivers is a Professor of Public and International Affairs from the University of Ottawa. His research focuses on the economic evaluation of environmental policies. He is a member of the Canadian climate Institute and served as a co editor of the Journal of Environmental Economics and Management, and was previously a Canada Research Chair in climate and energy policy. Nick regularly provides advice on energy and climate policies to federal and provincial governments, as well as nongovernmental organizations. So Nicholas, welcome to the show.

Nicholas Rivers 07:32

Thanks for having me on, Trevor.

Trevor Freeman 07:34

So let's start with a little bit of background, can you give us a sense of how you got to where you are today, and really specifically how you came to be passionate about environmental policy?

Nicholas Rivers 07:44

Okay, well, this is something where, you know, maybe it's easy to look back and paint a linear trajectory. But certainly, this is not, this was not the aim. From a young age, I didn't have career goals, I would say leaving high school had no idea. I had been pretty good at math and, you know, a tinkerer. I liked playing with capsula, which was this cool, mechanical toy, and Lego, and that kind of thing. And so I did engineering, without really an end goal in mind. I did mechanical engineering. And at that time, you know, when I was in my late teens, early 20s, I started reading books about kind of nascent books about climate change books about energy, I had friends that were really active in the kind of energy and environmental movements, and started to realize that that's maybe where I wanted to focus, my energy, my own energy. And so in my mechanical engineering degree, I wanted to start working on renewable energy, which was really at the beginning at the time, this was the late 1990s. So at the time, there was one wind turbine in Ontario. I went to visit it during my mechanical engineering degree, the Pickering one, right. It was up. No, it was up on the Europe like you're on the Peninsula, Brisbane and so Okay, gotcha, right by the British nuclear station. It was a test one, it wasn't a big commercial wind facility. So I was just like, digging around trying to find interesting stuff. And wind turbines look really interesting because they were big, and they were in moved and they you could see something they were doing. I didn't end up working in wind facilities. I ended up getting some jobs and hydrogen worked with Ballard and Hydrogenics as a co-op engineer. So that was my kind of foot in the in the renewable world. And I have to say, I didn't really like it all that much. I was doing, you know, I was in the field that I kind of wanted to be in the engineering field. And it's working on renewables, but the jobs I was doing didn't appeal to me. So they were really kind of small bits of the renewable energy picture and I was reading the books at the time by Amory Levin's and if you come across him or Paul Hodgkin and they were talking about big system transformations. And that's what I wanted to get into. And here I was figuring out the right radius to bend a pipe that transferred humidity from one stream to another. And it just wasn't jiving with the big picture that I was interested in. And so I ended up going back to university after my undergraduate degree, to study resource and environmental management with Mark Jackered, at Simon Fraser University. And Mark is one of the people that's been really central in thinking about energy policy and environmental policy in Canada over the last, I guess, like four decades now. And I think exposure to the way he was thinking and the way I was taught to think in that program really got me interested in and working on energy and environmental policy on a kind of as a career, and expose me to the possibility that you could work on this right, as a high school student leaving high school, you don't think that there's jobs working on energy policy, so it wasn't something I had in mind from for a long time. I'll also say, I grew up in a family that I don't know if they were environmentalist, but certainly fought a lot about the environment, you know, bird watching, and hiking, and that kind of thing. I was outside a lot when I was young, and I still like to be outside all the time. So I think there's, I've always had that kind of affinity for the environment. But this was a way that I could kind of blend some of my math skills or some of my interests and tinkering with, with some of those kinds of environmental affinity.

Trevor Freeman 11:31

Yeah, I mean, this is definitely not an episode where I need to give my backstory, but there's so much of what you said that, that I relate to from drawing a connection between playing with Lego as a kid and ending up in engineering school, that's totally my pathway as well, and being you know, good at math, getting into engineering school, and then realizing, hey, there might be something else out here through a project. And so I did my fourth year design project, just on a whim on a green roof for one of our university buildings

Nicholas Rivers 11:59

Ah cool.

Trevor Freeman 12:00

I would say that's kind of a point where it pushed me into this more sustainability focused career. So great to hear that. Thanks for sharing that. And certainly, I can appreciate the lack of linearity and a lot of careers in this space, and really the

Nicholas Rivers 12:14

Exactly, yeah

Trevor Freeman 12:15

everything. So. Okay, so the topic here, we're talking about today's policy. So I want to have you help us understand what is the history of decarbonisation policy in Canada? You know, we're at a point today, and we'll talk about maybe where we need to go moving forward. But what has come before this? When did we start seeing policies focused on reducing carbon in Canada, give us a bit of a crash course on our history so far.

Nicholas Rivers 12:45

Sure, I'll do my best. It's not that new. Right. We've known about this for a long time. In fact, I teach a course on climate. And, you know, in digging around for that course, we have studied climate change for over a century. The first, I think, relatively modern looking predictions about climate change came in the 1800s, the late 1800s. And so we have had a pretty good sense of where we're going for a long time. The first real government assessment of the severity of climate change came in the 1960s. This was a US government and national assessment, National Science Assessment. And it pretty much got the contours of the problem right, in the sense that we haven't, haven't changed our understanding of the science of climate change all that dramatically since the 1960s. The projections from that time still hold out today. In Canada, we didn't act quickly after the 1960s reports in the US, although we certainly followed them. The first thing Canada did, I would say, was hold a big international conference on climate change in the late 1980s, in Toronto. And this is a period, you know, when we were holding a number of these big international conferences on sustainable development, for example, or on climate for the first time, and Canada did its part in Toronto in '88 by holding this conference called the World Conference On The Changing Atmosphere. And at that conference, it was recognized that we can't keep going the way we are on climate. It's not sustainable, we're going to end up with more of a warmer world than we want. And we promised at the time, to reduce emissions by 20%. From those levels in the 80s. By the beginning of the century, by the beginning of a new millennium, which we didn't do. We didn't do it. Of course, yeah, this is gonna be a kind of recurring theme. It didn't do much in the way of policy, you know. So I think something we've learned is that just saying, we're going to do something doesn't amount all that much. But we've done that a number of times, and we started doing it in the 1980s. We didn't really start following up with proper policies, and by proper policies, I mean, policies that compel emitters, anyone who emits emissions to change their behavior in some way, either by replacing a technology or, or changing their actions. Until I would say the middle of the first century, or the first decade after the new millennium, so around 2005. And at the time, it wasn't the federal government that was really in the driver's seat on climate policy. It was the provincial governments. And so we saw at the time, British Columbia's government started experimenting with a carbon tax. We saw Alberta's government implement some restrictions on industrial emissions, we saw the Quebec government implement some, some transport industrial policies. We saw Ontario phase out coal fired power starting in 2007. And so it was really the provincial governments that were in the driver's seat, the federal government, you know, it was starting to tinker. But the federal government didn't really begin to take a really strong position, policy wise on climate change until around 2015. And that was the point when the federal government convened the provinces to get agreement that they should all move forward on implementing carbon pricing. All the provinces agreed except for one at the time. And so they all brought in a carbon price, either it was the federal carbon price that was imposed, or the provinces imposed their own carbon price. And that was the beginning really, of a whole slew of other policies and regulations. So since that 2015 period, I would say the federal government has really been more in the driver's seat on climate policy, and has implemented things like regulations on methane emissions, as has required the phase out of coal fired power, which is actually by 2030 of the requirement, but it's actually proceeding quite a bit quicker than the federal requirement. It's also got this carbon price in place, it's bringing in policies to require a complete cleaning of the electricity grid, a cap on oil and gas emissions and regulations on zero emission vehicles. And so really kind of multifaceted regulations coupled with this carbon price. And increasingly over the last couple of years, we're also seeing them coupled with pretty big subsidies for structural transformation of the economy. So you're seeing this play out in Ontario with battery plant investments, for example. And so I would say that's the policy kind of history, we're seeing a pretty slow start. We've known about the problem a lot longer than we've been acting on the problem. We saw ramp up provincially, after the millennium, and that we've seen the transition from the provinces to the federal government taking leadership on this file for the last decade or so.

Trevor Freeman 18:01

And as you said, like, slower than fast, but more to come. We're not done where we are today is not where we need to be. Yeah. So there's lots to talk about.

Nicholas Rivers 18:11

Yeah, exactly. Good point. So we, we've our admissions, not surprisingly, in the absence of any policies kept on growing up until about 2005, when we started bringing in policy. Until that point, it was like, received wisdom, that anytime the economy grew, which it mostly does every year, greenhouse gas emissions would grow with it. And that that held for a long time, like maybe even a century leading up to around 2005. And then policy really started to break that chain. And so we've seen a decoupling of economic growth and greenhouse gas emissions in Canada, as well as most other rich countries over the past decade and a half or so. But emissions aren't falling fast. In fact, they hardly even fall. They're falling from where they would have been, but they're not, they're more or less flat lines in Canada are beginning a very slow decline. Yeah. And we've got a maybe it's worth saying, one of the things that we've learned from the climate scientists is that emissions have to go to zero. There's not, you know, we can't solve this problem with modest cuts in emissions, which is where we're at right now that you can think of this as like filling up a bathtub with a tap, and the bathtub is going to keep filling until the tap comes off until the tap turns off completely. And so the goal, the end goal here, if we want to stop the world from heating up is stopping all emissions. And I think that's something that it took me a long time to appreciate. But it's something that I think is transformative and thinking about environmental policy.

Trevor Freeman 19:45

Yeah, that's a great point. And I think that really underpins the conversation today of seeing the role in policy to start decoupling what else is happening in our society with our emissions levels, and I think we're going to pick apart some of those Pacific examples during our conversation. So you brought up carbon pricing. I think everybody listening to this podcast, probably would agree that's, you know, at least the most public if not the signature national decarbonisation policy in Canada today, it's the one that certainly gets the most notice and the most discussion. So I want to start there, I want to pick it apart a little bit. I mean, to say that it's a divisive issue would be kind of an understatement. Help us understand how carbon pricing works in Canada today? What is our current scheme that we have in this country?

Nicholas Rivers 20:37

Good question. Okay, let me start out by saying what's the point of carbon pricing? Because I think it's not evident for lots of people, it seems like a crazy idea. The basic idea is that we live in a market economy. And a market economy is one where the market responds to the cost of producing something and the desire of people to buy something. And so the market sets the prices, and the market determines how much gets produced in response to the prices and how much people buy in response to the prices. It's not directed by some other entity, as a market economy tends to work best when the prices of things reflect their costs. So if I want to go buy some bread, the idea in a market economy is that the price of the bread that I buy should reflect the cost to produce the bread, right, the cost of the grains that are used to make it and the cost of labor, and the machines that are required to make it. And if that does reflect the cost, and there's a motivation for the bread maker to make the bread for me, and, and so it'll be there when I want to buy it. And the idea that behind this carbon pricing is that there is a cost to me producing carbon emissions. Right? So the cost is it makes the world a little warmer. And there's a cost in lives and livelihoods, and wellbeing, from climate change. But I don't pay a price, right, I don't pay the cost, I'm not required to pay the cost because this is a non market good. No one's producing climate change at the public good. And so the idea behind carbon pricing is, hey, the market doesn't work for this kind of good. One way we can fix it is by attaching a price to carbon emission. So it's just like bread when people use it, they have to pay the price to reflect the cost. And so that's the kind of basic fundamental and the, the idea that economists have had for a long time, is that if we properly price carbon emissions, people are going to use an awful lot less of them, because now their actions reflect the costs. Okay, so that's the kind of basic idea behind carbon pricing. Canada has brought in a carbon price federally in 2019 provinces implemented carbon prices, some of them much before that. So Alberta brought in an industrial carbon price in 2007. BC, brought in a carbon price throughout all emit for all emitters in 2008, and Quebec, as well. So, so the federal carbon price now is kind of the law of the land, in the sense that, in that 2016 meeting that I mentioned, where the federal and provincial governments agreed about carbon pricing, the agreement was we should all have a carbon price, let's make this a level playing field, let's all do our piece. And the federal government kind of took that message back and developed a federal carbon pricing benchmark, which said, Hey, provinces, you can do your own carbon price, as long as it's at least, you know, this certain level of stringency. But if you don't do it, we'll bring in our own federal carbon price in its stead. Okay, so provinces have the ability to do something on their own. And if they don't do anything, the federal government will, will bring in a carbon price. And so what we've got now is a kind of a system that's a bit piecemeal, where some provinces have their own carbon price and other provinces have not implemented a carbon price. And the federal government has brought one in and put in their place, the Federal carbon price as two parts. One is a consumer facing part. So for people like you and me, and for people or for institutions that are not giant emitters, like a university or hospital or a mall, for example. They all are subject to what the federal government calls a fuel Levy, and what the rest of us call a carbon tax. Big industrial emitters, like a pulp and paper plant or a steel plant, or a big electricity generator, are subjected to a different scheme. It's still a carbon price. But the way it works is a little different. And it's called an output based performance standard. So I'll speak briefly, on the industry side, the way it works is that each facility that produces a lot of emissions gets a target, then it's usually the same target for everyone in the sector. So at the target could be like, the target is for a steel sector, you have to produce steel with a carbon intensity of less than, say, one tonne of carbon per tonne of steel that you produce. So they get that target and if they managed to get their facility emissions below the target, they get a reward in terms of a carbon price, and if they their emissions are above the target, they have to pay a carbon price

Trevor Freeman 25:38

A financial reward. So they get some sort of incentive to be below that benchmark.

Nicholas Rivers 25:42

They basically get carbon credits, which have a financial value that you can trade them for dollars. So that's the way it works on the industry side. On the smaller emitter side, like you and me, it works a little differently. There's a levy on fuels. So any fuel that we might buy, like natural gas, or gasoline or diesel that contains carbon, or releases carbon, when it's combusted, is imposed in proportion to the amount of carbon that's released from that fuel when it's done. But, you and I are required to pay that fee. Now we don't pay it directly to the government, it's imposed at the retail level. So, you know, the gasoline station will pay the fee on our behalf, but then it'll raise the price of gasoline in the amount of the fee.

Trevor Freeman 26:33

Gotcha.

Nicholas Rivers 26:34

That's the main part of the system. The other thing with respect to this consumer carbon price, is that all that revenue that the government collects, is put into a pot. And then it's rebated back to us that, and you've probably heard about this, if you check your bank account, there'll be a Canada carbon rebate in your bank account, or at least each household will get one not each person.

Trevor Freeman 26:55

That's right.

Nicholas Rivers 26:55

So it depends on who to file their taxes First, each household who gets the rebate. So you want to be the first in your household to get your taxes done. But the money basically is raised from consumers in proportion to how much fuel they burn. And then the government collects it up, and rebates it back to consumers equally for all households. Okay, so a lot of people are confused about these parts, like why would they go to this trouble? Why would they raise money and then rebate it back? And this is an important point. This isn't a traditional tax, right? And then traditional tax governments implement the tax to raise revenue to, you know, buy or build a bridge or to fund a school or something like that. That's not what's going on here. The point of this fuel levy or carbon tax is to provide incentives for people to change their behavior. And in particular, it's to fix this market failure we talked about earlier with the cost of carbon emissions not reflected in their price. And so when the carbon price gets high, it will make a lot more sense for us as individuals to choose the low carbon action, as opposed to the high carbon action and save money doing it. And on the rebate side, the rebate is designed so that we don't get punished, we don't lose our you know, we don't become lower income as a result of this. And so it goes back to each of us equally. So no matter whether I do this, you know, whether I take the low carbon action, or I don't take the low carpet action, I get the same amount of rebate back regardless.

Trevor Freeman 28:26

So it opens the door, then to give people a little bit of control to work within the system to their own economic benefits.

Nicholas Rivers 28:35

Exactly.

Trevor Freeman 28:36

So if I can reduce my emissions and reduce my costs, I'm still gonna get the same amount back, but I'm going to be paying less of it.

Nicholas Rivers 28:42

You'll come out ahead.

Trevor Freeman 28:43

Yeah, it incentivizes me to do lower carbon things. So I pay less of that.

Nicholas Rivers 28:48

Exactly. That's the idea.

Trevor Freeman 28:49

Great. So I mean, the big question mark around all this. There's a lot of questions, obviously. But one of the big ones is, is it working? I mean, it's been in place, as you said since 2019. And in various forms across the country. Are we seeing the impact or the results that we as a society, or specifically the government intended to see from this? Are we reducing our fossil fuel consumption?

Nicholas Rivers 29:12

Yeah, I gotta give a two part answer.

Trevor Freeman 29:15

Sure. Yeah.

Nicholas Rivers 29:16

The first answer is, yes, it's working. So we've got dozens of studies that have looked at carbon prices in various jurisdictions around the world and use the data that we are able to gather to ascertain that yeah, carbon prices worldwide are definitely reducing emissions. Now, they're, they're not cutting emissions to zero, which is our goal, right? There's nowhere in the world that has implemented a carbon price and got emissions to go to zero. And you can see that in Canada emissions are basically flatlining. And so is it working? Yes, it's cutting emissions relatively where they would have been otherwise. But where it's not putting us yet on a trajectory towards getting to zero emissions. So emissions, carbon prices are still relatively low, worldwide and in Canada, and we don't really know what will happen when they ramp up to levels that might be commensurate with getting to zero emissions. But the initial forays into carbon pricing that we've seen around the world have suggested that this is definitely cutting emissions. Let me answer part two.

Trevor Freeman 30:22

Sure. Yeah.

Nicholas Rivers 30:23

And to part two is we don't really know that we don't really know because Canada implemented a carbon price nationwide in 2019. And so we don't have another Canada that didn't implement a carbon price in 2019. But everything else was exactly the same. To compare to, that's what we want to know, if we want to know that the carbon price worked, we would really want to have two Canada's and put a carbon price in one and not put a carbon price in the other, and then compare the two. And we don't have that. And in that sense, this is the same problem as we have for any big economic policy, or any big social policy or any big policy of any kind. We don't really know, for example, if single payer health care works, and then we don't have another candidate without single payer health care, but uh, we can, you know, have some proxies to think about whether it works, we can look at other jurisdictions that don't have single payer health care and try to make some comparisons. But we don't really know what would happen in Canada if we took away single payer health care, because we don't have another candidate without single payer health care. And so there are lots of studies that suggest that carbon prices are working. But we don't have, you know, that rock solid evidence, that of exactly what emissions are being cut by this, this carbon price in this context.

Trevor Freeman 31:39

Yeah, and I think that's partly why I talk about this a lot on the podcast with different guests on different topics. And it applies at the macro level with something like national policy, but also down to the micro level with, you know, what, what are individual utilities trying to do to meet the demands of the future, there really is not likely to be a single strategy that is going to get us where we need to be. It's not like we can pick that one. Policy, that one piece of technology. That's, that is the answer. That's really going to get us there. And I think that probably applies to carbon pricing as well. It's a tool in the toolbox.

Nicholas Rivers 32:16

Oh, absolutely. But I mean, I mean, let's just say that that's not what's what's happening. There were no governments, either provincially or federally, that have said, Okay, we're all in on carbon pricing. Now, we're done with our climate policy.

Trevor Freeman 32:29

Yeah

Nicholas Rivers 32:29

That's not at all the picture in Canada. So let's not, I don't want to paint that as, as the picture because as I opened up this podcast saying, you know, Canada's done a ton in the last decade on climate policy, including things like vehicle standards and coal phase out and electricity and low carbon fuel standards, and I could the list goes really, on and on.

Trevor Freeman 32:51

Yeah, and I will definitely pull apart some of that, I think. So my next question on this is, as I mentioned, this is a divisive topic, there are differing ideas around carbon pricing, whether we should have when how it should apply. And the nature and the beauty and the frustration of our open democratic society is that we could very well pick a different direction. In the near future, we may have a different government next time around, that government could choose to do something different. What are other options out there? That might still factor in the fact that there is a cost to emitting carbon, but be a different strategy than the existing carbon pricing? Or is there another strategy out there? Or is there not?

Nicholas Rivers 33:39

Yeah, for sure, you can reduce emissions without a carbon price. The carbon price is one way of reducing emissions and it does have its appealing parts. It's appealing because it allows people some flexibility to respond in the way that suits them best, you know, I can either pay the carbon price or I can reduce emissions and not pay the carbon price. And, and for that reason, it's seen as a relatively economically efficient approach to reducing emissions. But there are other ways I would say the two big other ways are regulatory approaches, and incentive based approaches. So let me go through what those look like. In a regulatory approach. We don't say, here's the financial penalty for carbon emissions. Now figure out what you want to do, like a carbon price, we say here's exactly what you should do or what you have to do. And so a regulatory example would be we've got lots of these nationally, and provincially. But a regulatory example might say you can't generate electricity with coal fired power anymore. Okay, that's a regulation or it might say, you have to cut your emissions by 10% this year and every year going forward as silver it. So certainly regulatory approaches can work, they often seem to be less flexible than a carbon price, because you don't give emitters the choice of how to respond to you imposing upon them. And so that requires the government to know quite a lot about you know, what's feasible and what's appropriate for different situations that it doesn't need to know, in the carbon price case, it didn't. So if I want to regulate you, Trevor, and to do it in a way, that's reasonable, I got to know a lot about your life to know like about what you're, you know, what possibilities you have to reduce your emissions, before I can choose some appropriate, you know, regulations to impose on you. So if I tell you, you have to use a heat pump, and then it turns out you live in a house that is not amenable to a heat pump. I've kind of made life difficult for you. Yeah. So regulations certainly have a lot of potential and, and they are being used in contexts where the kind of technology has become more clear. And I think they have a lot of, they can play a big role, they are playing a big role in driving down emissions. So again, in cases where technology is relatively clear, and there's less of that kind of work in that situation, this doesn't work in this other situation. Another approach to reduce emissions would be an incentive driven approach. So you could think of a carbon price as a disincentive, right, every time you produce emissions, I'm going to charge you. And an alternative approach would be anytime you do something that reduces emissions, I'm going to reward you. And so we have that happening here as well. So there's subsidies for heat pumps, for example, or electric vehicles. We're seeing subsidies for construction of electricity, electric, battery, battery, electric plants. So this is certainly part of that role as well. I feel like subsidies play a useful role in really nascent technologies, but driving decarbonisation with subsidies, it my view is going to be, we're not going to be able to afford the cost as a government, it's going to be too much for the government to try to replace everyone's heating system. With a subsidy. I think we're finding that out. In the case of the green Homes program, the government has pulled back here as a sight into fiscal cost.

Trevor Freeman 37:16

Exactly, yeah, it's popular because it helps, you know, those early adopters get that more expensive piece of technology. But to your point, we can't pay for every single one of those units, we can't provide that incentive. So it's creating more of an ecosystem that makes those make more sense.

Nicholas Rivers 37:31

Yeah.

Trevor Freeman 37:32

Okay. So that's great. Thanks very much, Nick, for enlightening us that we could probably spend an entire episode no question just talking about that. But I do want to push forward here on to some of these other questions. I want to dive into some specific sectors of our economy or some specific issues and understand from you the role of policy and help us drive the change that we often talk about on this show. So given the kind of where I work, and the nature of these podcasts, electricity is a big piece for us. So a constant theme on the show is how electricity is really one of the main tools that we have to decarbonize, we all know that a lot of aspects of our life that are not currently run by electricity, like our transportation and our heating, we are going to move to that fuel source as as our heating or transportation method. We're pretty fortunate in Ontario, that we have a really clean grid, it's a little bit over 90%, emissions free, meaning, you know, most of the generation of our electricity doesn't create GHG emissions. But there are other parts of the country that do rely more on fossil fuels. And to your earlier point, 90% is good, but it's not 100%, there is still that 10% that we need to decarbonize. So what are some of the tools in place now? Or something? Some things that are being considered that will help us move toward totally emissions free electricity generation in Canada?

Nicholas Rivers 39:02

All right, good question. So electricity is a big source of emissions on its own, producing about 10% of Canada's emissions. And as you point out, it is the central tool, which we're hoping to use to decarbonize all the other sectors. And that only works if the electricity industry is clean. And so I think you're right to point out, this is one of the first things we've got to tackle. Unfortunately, it is the big success story in Canada, emissions have been falling rapidly in electricity generation in Canada. And it's because of policy especially. One thing that we've done that's been really effective, and I mentioned it earlier, is an explicit policy to phase out coal fired power generation. coal generation produces about twice as much greenhouse gas per kilowatt hour generated as natural gas. It's very dirty. And so it's the first So you want to do what to tackle. And so Canada's federal government brought in a policy that said, by 2030, there shouldn't be any more coal generation on the grid. That's, it's a little late to the game. And that I mean, this is, I think, an important policy. But Ontario started phasing out coal in 2007. And I believe it was finished by phasing out coal in 2014. And that's why, to his credit, so clean right now, I learned as part of another project that Ontario had the biggest coal fired generation station in North America, which was one of the ones that was closed. As part of this, this coal phase out big local health improvements, as well as greenhouse gas improvements.

Trevor Freeman 40:37

Yeah, that's important to say to you, there are other ancillary benefits here to policies.

Nicholas Rivers 40:42

I think, even if coal didn't produce greenhouse gas emissions, it would be worth closing it. And in fact that that was the reason for Ontario's coal phase out was a policy by the Canadian Association of Physicians for the environment that was worried about local health impacts, and they are dire, we lose about 10 million people worldwide every year from air pollution. So it is a sector that's really worth tackling on its own even without greenhouse gas issues. But it is a big greenhouse gas emitter. And that's the first thing we want to do. And we're being successful, there are some coal fired generating stations left in Canada, but they are many fewer than they were a decade ago. And, they will be phased out by 2030. I think before 2030, in most cases. Aster coal, which is the dirtiest fuel, we've got to tackle natural gas. Natural gas is going to be the main source of emissions in our electricity sector, once the coal is gone, and we're not yet in a position to get rid of natural gas from electricity grids. Natural gas is super useful, because it can ramp up and down really quickly. You can, I mean, I'm not an Electricity System Operator, but my understanding is you can basically flick the up switch and electricity, the gas turbine will go up, you know, in terms of power output pretty much right away. And then you can press the down switch and go down right away. That is not at all the case, for example, with a nuclear power station.

Trevor Freeman 42:06

Exactly. Yep, exactly.

Nicholas Rivers 42:08

And so gas is useful. And it becomes more useful when you put a lot of renewables on the grid, because renewables do fluctuate quite quickly. And, you know, if the sun goes behind the cloud, for example, or if the wind hits a gust, and so you want to be able to respond to those fluctuations with some other source that can go up and down quite quickly. And so we're using that natural gas for that role right now, that backup role. And, and there's not a, there's not a straightforward substitution for all of that gas capacity right now. I think in the near term, what we want to do is stop using or dramatically slow down using natural gas, for providing bulk energy. So bulk energy, I mean, not this kind of quick response function that natural gas plays, but the kind of 24/7 kind of energy that that we also need in society, we should be trying to displace gas's role in providing that, and we can do it relatively cost effectively. Now, with wind and solar electricity or nuclear power in Ontario.

Trevor Freeman 43:11

Yeah, that's our base load is what we call that So absolutely, that that load that's always there, if we can make sure that load at least is completely carbon free, that's a big win for sure.

Nicholas Rivers 43:21

Exactly. And so I would say be looking for opportunities to get wind and solar, and maybe nuclear or geothermal to be providing that bulk energy and start retaining natural gas for uniquely that backup role. And we're starting to see regulations that are developed with that aim in mind. So Canada is currently consulting on what it calls its clean electricity regulation, which is designed to basically limit gas to a backup role by 2035. So it is a regulation that is intent on getting rid of gas as a provider of bulk energy, and limiting it to only providing, you know, a certain number of hours of year of backup capacity. So it's not saying you can't have gas on the grid, but it says you shouldn't be using gas to provide your main source of power. Gotcha. So that's a policy that's not implemented yet. It's being developed. It's being consulted on and we'll see what the final version of that policy looks like. But I think that's basically the right angle to be trying to limit gas to smaller contributions. And eventually, we're going to want to figure out another source of energy that can provide that kind of high frequency or high reliability backup power. And that's tricky to do. Because gas does play that unique role. And so it's not something we need to do right away, but it's something that we should be thinking about how to provide that in the future.

Trevor Freeman 44:55

Yeah, I mean, that raises a great point and kind of leads into my Next question really well. There are certainly things we need to develop, things we need to figure out moving forward on, not just the policy side, but the technology side. In order to address what we have to do for climate change, what role does policy government play in supporting research and development of accelerating these new technological advances that we need, you know, in short order here?

Nicholas Rivers 45:29

Another good question. Okay. Let me start by saying, for our short term climate goals, and our short term climate goal nationally, is to reduce emissions by 40%. By 2030, an ambitious goal, we have the technology we need.

Trevor Freeman 45:44

Yeah

Nicholas Rivers 45:45

The IEA, the International Energy Agency, the Canadian climate Institute, have done reports that try to figure out, you know, what we might or what pathway we might follow to get emissions down to 40, or 50%. And the common assessment, and I think it's reasonable, is that we have what we need to cut emissions by half. So we don't need to invent anything new, right away. But to cut emissions to zero. And this is like a mid century 2050 kind of goal, we probably do need to invent some new technologies. Some things like I just mentioned, like figuring out ways to produce firm power. So that kind of firming role that natural gas plays that's clean, would be an example, or figuring out ways to provide zero carbon, long distance transport, or zero carbon, concrete or cement, for example, yet another example. So we do have things to figure out, by all means. I would say the government can play a really big role here. And the government does play a big role here. Maybe we're thinking about how technology gets better. Before we start thinking about what the government can do. technology gets better in two big ways. One is, like before it's ready to be sold on the market. technology gets better through a deliberate research and development process. And so this is firms, or universities or national labs, working on, you know, new types of renewable energy. There's lots of work, for example, new types of solar cells happening right now, or new types of batteries. And this is like the deliberate efforts to invent new technologies for research and development. But the other big way that technology can improve is through the deployment process. And in fact, I think most of the big cost improvements for new technologies happen on the latter side. So it's like we've left after we've invented the basic technology, the scale up process, the economies of scale, deliver big cost gains, and performance improvements. And what we call learning by doing. It's like this process of just getting better at doing something by doing it lots of times. And solar is a really good example of that. You guys have probably talked about how solar on this podcast is so important, but solar has fallen and cost 1000 fold over the last 40 years. Yeah, 1000 fold that's crazy. And much of the cost decline, adults, especially over the last 15 years, has been learning by doing has been us just getting really good at squeezing out all the inefficiencies in the manufacturing process and, and very small improvements, but continuous improvements in the efficiency process of like actually harvesting the solar energy in the cell, such that the cost has continuously fallen by by, well, I don't know exactly the number per year, we talked about a learning curve, falling per number of technologies deployed. So every time solar installations double, we tend to see about a 15 to 20% cost decline.

Trevor Freeman 48:57

Gotcha.

Nicholas Rivers 48:58

And so I would say that that learning process is important as well. And the government can play a big role in both of those processes. Right? It certainly supports basic research and development. And this can be academic or industry research. Candidates don't do a great job on this front, we have quite low return development, investments compared to poor countries, and so are kind of free riding on on r&d investments compared to more innovative countries. And then the other big role for the government would be in helping to deploy new technologies and spur along that learning by doing process. And so that could be like providing niche markets for new technologies or through government procurement. You know, government could might say even though this new technology is a little more expensive, we can see it has a long term future and we're gonna we're gonna we're going to commit to buying it for government purposes, and government itself is a really big market, so that can be a big incentive for them. For cost declines, and it can just, you know, spur deployment. So we're seeing that with electric cars right now, the government is providing subsidies for people to buy electric cars. And one of the reasons that it does that is to help improve the technology.

Trevor Freeman 50:13

Yeah, and just for our listeners out there, you know, what, what Nicholas is describing is not unique to green technology to climate change technology. This is sort of a standard approach for technology development over the last, I don't know, centuries. Is that fair to say?

Nicholas Rivers 50:31

Yeah, the early ones, the reports that I've seen on learning by doing came from airplane manufacturing, right. So when people were learning to make wide body airplanes, researchers observed the same kind of cost improvements in that process, as we're currently observing in, for example, batteries, or electrolyzers, or solar panels.

Trevor Freeman 50:52

Yeah. And that's, that's encouraging, and that we kind of know as a society, how to help technology move along, if there's the political will. And then if ultimately the market decides, yeah, this is something we want, then that iterative process can happen to help get that cost down, as you said, learn by doing, figure out the installation cost, figuring out the manufacturing, supply chain issues, and really making a viable technology.

Nicholas Rivers 51:17

Yeah.

Trevor Freeman 51:18

Okay, so it's Trevor here, breaking into my own podcast. We're gonna pause there. As I said, at the beginning, this is really a long conversation. There's a lot to get through. And there's a lot more to that we talked about that Nicholas and I talked about, so we wanted to break it into two episodes. So this will be the end of Part One. Thanks for sticking with us and joining us today, and we look forward to having you back for part two that will be released at our next episode. So thanks very much, and we'll talk to you soon. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com

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Heat pumps are proving as one method to combat climate change and decarbonize Canada—because they can operate at 300% efficiency (or greater!), while a standard furnace runs between 93–94%. In this episode of thinkenergy, Hydro Ottawa’s Shawn Carr, Manager, Customer Experience, chats his experience using a heat pump in his home. From the upfront costs to how it works and its role in reducing carbon emissions. Listen in for practical benefits of heat pumps and their future in our homes and businesses.

Related links

● Shawn Carr, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-carr-6797b612/

● Air Source Heat Pump Toolkit: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/maps-tools-and-publications/tools/modelling-tools/toolkit-for-air-source-heat-pump-sizing-and-selection/23558

● Building Decarbonization Alliance heat pump report: https://buildingdecarbonization.ca/report/the-cool-way-to-heat-homesinstalling-heat-pumps-instead-of-central-air-conditioners-in-canada/

● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

HYDRO_16749_ThinkEnergy_Podcast_May_13_Audio_Final

Fri, May 10, 2024 12:03PM • 37:12

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

heat pump, electrification, heat, air conditioner, electrify, technology, energy, people, backup, costs, emissions, work, trevor, installed, cold climate, project, ottawa, gas furnace, temperature, ev

SPEAKERS

Shawn Carr, Trevor Freeman

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at thinkenergy@hydro ottawa.com Hi everyone, welcome back. On today's show, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to check back in with a previous guests. Just over a year ago, Dan, my predecessor in the host chair, interviewed Sean Carr hydro Ottawa's manager of customer experience about residential heat pumps, and in particular about his own experience with a heat pump installation for his own home. At the time, his heat pump was only about five months old. So now that he's been through another full winter with his heat pump, I thought it would be good to check back in and see how things are going. But before we do that, let me give a quick refresher on heat pumps. Now for those of you energy nerds or people in the sector, you may not need a refresher. But even those of you who aren't too sure what a heat pump is, are probably familiar with the technology. A heat pump is just a device that moves heat from one place to another. The most common example of this that you would be familiar with is a home air conditioner or a refrigerator. Both of those devices take heat, either from the air in your home or from the inside of your refrigerator and move it elsewhere. So over an air conditioner and moves the heat outside and for a refrigerator and moves the heat to the back of the refrigerator onto those coils that gather dust in you might every five years clean off. And they do this in order to make that space colder. A heat pump does exactly the same thing, except it takes heat from the outside air and moves it inside your home in order to make your home warmer. Heat pumps even look a lot like air conditioners, depending on the model. If you walk down the side of my house right now, you wouldn't even know that I have a heat pump. And not just an air conditioner because it looks exactly the same. Now you're probably thinking that's great, except when I want to heat my home, it's typically a cold day in the winter, and there is no heat in the air. But that's not exactly true, there is still some heat energy in the air. And thanks to the wonders of science, a heat pump can extract that heat from the air and move it into your home in the same way that when it's 35 degrees outside. And that's celsius for any nonmetric listeners out there. An air conditioner or heat pump can cool your home. I won't get into all the technical details here. But let's just say if you're not familiar with the ideal gas law, it is doing all the heavy lifting here. And I typically try to make this show not to engineering me but every once in a while I have to throw out a great formula like that. Okay, so now that we remember the basics about what a heat pump is, the next question is why are we talking about them again on the show? Well, if that's what you're thinking, I hate to say it, but this won't be the last time we talk about heat pumps either. In fact, this is the kind of thing that we'll probably revisit a number of times in the future. And that's because heat pumps are such an important technology for decarbonizing the way we heat our buildings, especially residential buildings, and even our water because yes, there are heat pump hot water heaters out there as well. Heat pumps don't use any fuel to create heat, they don't burn anything to create heat, they simply use electricity to move heat. And that makes him super clean. So there are no emissions at all from a heat pump itself, just the emissions that might have been created where that electricity was generated. And they are super efficient. You might have heard people talk about how furnaces are, you know, 93, or 94% efficient, or sometimes even 95, or 96% efficient. So that means for every unit of energy you put into that furnace, you get about, you know, 93 94, or whatever percent of that energy out as heat, you have to put more energy in, then you get out. Heat pumps, on the other hand, use a different scale, something called the coefficient of performance or COP. But it's essentially the same thing. And they can often run around 300% efficiency, and sometimes even higher. So for every unit of energy you're putting in, you get three units of energy out, which is awesome, you're getting more energy out than you're putting in that makes them really efficient. And if we're going to actually tackle the problems that lead to climate change, if we're actually going to decarbonize our society, and I really believe we are because I'm optimistic that way. Then almost every single one of us will eventually have a heat pump heating the space we live in, likely the space we work in as well and heating the water that we use as hot water. Okay, so now that we're back up to speed on heat pumps, let's check in with Shawn to hear how his journey has been going. Sean, welcome to the show.

Shawn Carr 05:12

Thanks, Trevor. It's great to be here.

Trevor Freeman 05:15

Okay, so let's get into it. Let's talk about your experience with a heat pump. Remind us again, what kind of heating system you had in your house and replaced and what did you put in?

Shawn Carr 05:25

Sure, Trevor. So I went from a high efficiency condensing gas furnace to a cold climate heat pump. And I elected to go with electric heat as my backup heat source. And a backup heat source is typically required in our cold climate. And the two most common backup heat options are typically a natural gas furnace, or an electric resistance coil that goes inside your ductwork. So I went with the electric electric resistance coil option.

Trevor Freeman 06:02

Okay, so you totally removed gas from your heating solutions in your house. And for context, can you remind us what is the size of your home and talk us through the economics of your heat pump? What did it cost you? And what remains? What did you qualify for.

Shawn Carr 06:19

So I live in rural Ottawa, our home is approximately 2100 square feet. It's a single storey bungalow, but does have a basement. It was built in 2008. And we were the first homeowners. And so it's relatively modern construction, given that it's only about 15 years old now. In regards to the project costs. So looking back at things, our total project costs for the cold climate heat pump, along with that electric backup system, and I elected to go with some additional controls and bells and whistles. And the project ended up costing us around $17,000, before taxes and rebates. And so maybe just to talk through the rebates a little bit I did receive a $5,000 rebate through enter cans greener Homes program. And I took advantage of a zero interest loan through the greener homes loan program as well, which allows me to pay back that project cost over a 10 year period. With zero interest. Unfortunately, the Enter Ken greener Homes program is no longer accepting applications, it's been pretty successful. But I was obviously fortunate enough to be able to take advantage of that program. So that ended up bringing our total project costs down for the heat pump and backup system to around $12,000. Before Tax, I can say that I do know a handful of people that have gone through and installed heat pumps recently. And I am seeing that the project costs are actually coming down, which is great. My father is actually having a heat pump installed today. In fact, so I'm looking forward to hearing how that project goes. But it's great to see that more installers and companies are now starting to talk to customers about heat pumps. And that's going to make the transition become more feasible than ever for more people. And I do think that being said, if we do want to get to a point where there is mass market adoption, we do need to get the heat pump and backup heat system costs down to a point where they are comparable to a furnace air conditioner replacement project, for example, because people still think in terms of sticker price. And so I do think there's still a bit of work to be done here. But as installers get more comfortable with these heat pumps and manufacturing starts to scale up, I do think we'll see prices come down further.

Trevor Freeman 08:52

Yeah, I mean, it's great to see that we're already seeing movement on that. But as you know, I mean, you and I both fall into that early adopter category and things tend to be more expensive and it will be great when we can get those costs down. So you've been living with your heat pump for over a year now kind of two two winters to cooling or heating season. Sorry. Let's talk about your initial thoughts. Let's start with comfort. How has your comfort been in your home?

Shawn Carr 09:20

Yeah, that's I mean, that's a great place to start. And you know, I will say that we've actually we've noticed some comfort improvements since putting in the cold climate heat pump particularly in our basement actually because we always found that the basement was several degrees colder than it was upstairs the thermostat in our house is on the main floor obviously but since we've gotten the the heat pump installed, we've noticed that the temperature difference between upstairs and downstairs it's actually much smaller. The Delta is much smaller now than it was prior to the heat pump when we were heating with a gas furnace and I think the main reason for that is heat pumps are really designed to run low and slow, they provide a greater volume of air over a longer period of time that that air is being delivered at a lower temperature. But as a result of that we found a more uniform temperature throughout the house just because of how the heat pump was running so much more frequently.

Trevor Freeman 10:22

Great. What about the experience of actually getting installed? I mean, once you made your decision to do this, how was it working with the contractors and getting it installed?

Shawn Carr 10:32

It actually went pretty smoothly. I mean, first of all, we used a contractor that had experience with heat pumps and came recommended. So I think, you know, my advice to anyone who's considering getting one is, you know, get a few quotes, make sure they have experience with heat pumps and electrification or, and are actually recommending this technology. In our case, the total install took about two and a half days. So that includes obviously all the electrical work and running new refrigerant lines to the outside of the house replacing taking the old furnace out and putting the air handler in and installing the backup heat, I think just in terms of space, like the construction footprint essentially was about the same as it was before. So it didn't require more space in our utility room. Basically, we just went from a gas furnace to having a big box that looked very much the same in the same location. And of course, the unit outside looks and sounds very much like a traditional air conditioner. And that's because a heat pump is simply an air conditioner with a reversing valve. So the install was straightforward. Yeah, I would recommend it to anyone.

Trevor Freeman 11:37

Great. Now,I mean, it's interesting, you talk about it being like an air conditioner. We often think about heat pumps as this technology of the future, this thing that we're all eventually going to have in our homes. Is it this futuristic piece of technology that's hard to operate? Or what is it like kind of, you know, setting it and letting it run?

Shawn Carr 11:54

Yeah, so the operation is really straightforward. I think the best way I would describe it is you basically, it's a set and forget system, I think the one thing that we did learn about having a heat pump is we don't adjust the temperature, like the thermostat temperature settings, as much as we did before, when we had a gas furnace, I used to get in the habit of dropping the temperature several degrees overnight, and then having the setpoint higher in the morning prior to getting up. But what we've found is, in particular, with the heat pump, it takes a lot longer for that heat pump, and it has to run a lot longer and a lot harder to reach that temperature setpoint. Again, so in the morning, so what we found is the most comfortable approach was really just to pick a temperature that we were comfortable with and just let it do its thing. The one other thing I think that I will say is I you know, we did have a smart thermostat before we elected to go with a heat pump. And as a result of going with the heat pump, I actually had to use a proprietary Fujitsu thermostat because I had a Fujitsu system. So I lost maybe a little bit of the flexibility that I had with the previous smart thermostat where I could just talk to Alexa or Google and have it adjust the temperature. That way I don't have that flexibility anymore, but because we've really sort of set the temperature and we just forget it and we leave the setpoint pretty much the same all the time, 24/7 I haven't necessarily missed having that technology. And it's not to say that with all heat pumps, you're going to have to use a proprietary thermostat, many of them are compatible with the smart thermostats that are out there that just happened to be the case with the system that I elected to go with.

Trevor Freeman 13:43

Okay, so speaking of temperature, you know, you and I both live in Ottawa, it gets pretty cold. How did it run through the past two winters that you've had it?

Shawn Carr 13:53

Yeah. So this winter, which I think was considered to be, you know, a milder winter on record here in the City of Ottawa, where we live, I'm very happy to report that my backup heat actually never came on. So I was able to just rely on the heat pump and the heat pump only as our only source of heating for our home this past winter. And so it did have a look, and I think we never did get below minus 20 Celsius here in Ottawa this winter, though, I think the coldest day was around, minus 19. But even at those low temperatures, I did not require my backup heat to supplement the heat for our home. I did go back and look at the previous winter, which I know was much colder and I fortunately put some controls on the heat pump that sort of tells me when's the heat pump running, when's the backup heat running, how much electricity is it using and so on. So I did go back and look at all that data and the prior winter. The backup heat only came on five days throughout the entire winter and those were days where the temperature overnight dropped somewhere between minus 17 Celsius and minus 33 Celsius. So those are really cold nights. And looking back, I think, on those days, the heat pump required the backup heat to kick in, and it would probably run for a couple of days, a couple of hours, sorry, on each of those five days. So you know, when the backup heat is running, my energy costs are obviously higher on those days. But I'm very, you know, pleased to report that over two winters, the cold climate heat pump overall has really done the job. And I haven't really had to rely on the backup heat that much.

Trevor Freeman 15:36

What about the noise levels of the unit? Is it a noisy unit to run? Or what does it sound like?

Shawn Carr 15:42

No, I mean, if you're used to having an air conditioner, I would say that the noise levels have been comparable to what they were with my previous air conditioning system. So I don't think you will notice the difference.

Trevor Freeman 15:54

Great. So if you could kind of sum it up, you know, what's the biggest benefit to putting in the heat pump?

Shawn Carr 16:00

What have you noticed? Well, for me, I think I'd say the biggest benefit is high efficiency, low emissions heating. So reducing emissions was my main driver for moving forward with this project. So the environmental benefits are, you know, really what motivated me to move to a heat pump in the first place. And what I'll say is I've also seen some energy savings as well. So it really has been a win-win project for me and I and I imagine that that will be the same for others who are, you know, on the fence as to whether this is the right technology for them or not.

Trevor Freeman 16:36

Yeah, so you talked about the upfront costs of the heat pump, but something that does, you know, concern some people or that people have questions about is, what is this going to cost me to run? So tell us about what your utility costs have been since switching from natural gas heating over to your heat pump?

Shawn Carr 16:56

Yeah, sure. So I'm a bit of a data nerd. So I've been obviously, you know, tracking all my monthly electricity use and gas use and have been keeping track of our overall energy costs. And so I did go back and looked at our energy costs for the two years prior to the heat pump install, and then looked at our energy costs for the 15 months after I put in the heat pump, which did include two winters, as you mentioned earlier, so my total electricity consumption increased by 62%, over that 15 month period, on average after installing the heat pump, but my gas consumption actually decreased by 65%. And my total energy costs actually dropped by 7%. So I've actually seen cost savings since proceeding with the project. And the other thing I'll just share with your listeners, is I elected to maintain my gas connection. And if I had not done that, the savings would have been obviously even greater.

Trevor Freeman 18:03

Yeah, that's great to hear. Any big lessons learned from going through this process and from your first year, first two years rather, of living with it?

Shawn Carr 18:12

Well, I think in our situation in my project, because I elected to go with electric resistance heating is my backup source, I'd say the one lesson learned is just make sure you understand the control strategy for the backup heat, make sure that your contractor explains to you how they've set that up and how that is, is intended to work. And the reason I say that is like I had picked up on the fact a few months after the project was done that there was backup heat that didn't seem to be operating quite right. And it turns out, I had the contractor come back and do a bit more commissioning. And we ended up putting a temperature sensor in the wrong location in the ductwork. And that had, that had caused some trouble, but it got, you got to identify quickly, it got resolved quickly. And I haven't had any issues ever since the contractor I worked with was very responsive, and they've been really great to work with. So that always helps.

Trevor Freeman 19:07

Great. So I mean, we've heard that this is generally a good experience for you. You're happy with where you're at now you're happy with your comfort and your costs. But we know that there isn't mass adoption of heat pumps yet, and we need to move faster if we're going to meet our climate targets. So what do you think is preventing that mass adoption today of heat pump technology?

Shawn Carr 19:30

Yeah, so I think there's a few things to consider. First thing I would probably say is just low familiarity in general, about heat pumps amongst both customers and contractors, but I think that's starting to get better. I think, you know, Heat pumps are getting a lot of attention right now and in the media and so on. And so I think that's certainly going to help create more awareness. But I think in general, you know, homeowners don't necessarily think about, you know, HVAC technology in general, I mean, we tend to be more aware of when a new car model comes out into the market. But that's not necessarily the same when we're talking about technologies like heat pumps. So that's the first thing I'd say just low familiarity still, in general, the other thing I'd say is just HVAC is not necessarily top of mind for most people, furnaces and air conditioners typically last 15 years. And you don't want to wait until a system failure to explore other options because the right option might not be there for you in an emergency replacement situation. So because we don't have to worry about our Hvac equipment very often, you know, infrequent purchasing and just very little time to make prudent HVAC purchasing decisions are barriers, because you might not be able to find the heat pump that you want, or the heat pump that's right for your home in stock if you don't plan ahead for that project. So that's the second thing. And then the third thing I'd still say is, you know, is cost and although basic single stage Heat pumps are becoming more comparable in costs to air conditioners, for example, cold climate, heat pumps still carry a bigger cost premium. And so without an incentive to offset that increase in costs, there's still going to be the risk of sticker shock for many people.

Trevor Freeman 21:20

Yeah. For those challenges for those things that are standing in the way of more Canadians and more people installing heat pumps, what do you think needs to happen? And either with technology or industry knowledge? Are there policy solutions that can be put in place in order to help more people overcome those challenges?

Shawn Carr 21:43

Yeah, I mean, I have a couple of thoughts on that, I guess, you know, for one, you know, what, what if every new air conditioner were a heat pump instead? I think that's something I think we should all think about. Canadians still install 10 times more air conditioners than heat pumps each year. So if we were able to transform the market, that way, we would really move the needle in terms of impact on energy bills and on overall emissions. So it would also stimulate the supply chain, right? If there was a market transformation strategy like that. So I think a national mandate would be great to see. And, actually, the building, decarbonisation Alliance has done some really great work in this area and recently published a paper called The cool way to heat pumps. And what that paper does is it analyzes the opportunity of installing heat pumps, instead of central air conditioners in Canada. So it's a really good read, I recommend it. But it really does talk about the market transformation strategy that could occur if every air conditioner was replaced with a heat pump instead. And then the other thing I just say is, and I think there's been a proven track record of this starting to work, especially over the last few years is more incentives for customers up front to put in a heat pump incentives for distributors and centers for manufacturers midstream, that could also shift the supply chain towards heat pumps as the recommended system of choice, I think would be, you know, a huge step in the right direction and certainly more access to financing to help those who want to make the right choice. I think those are all levers that will encourage adoption to accelerate. I mentioned earlier that Canada green homes grant is no longer accepting new applicants because of high demand and fully committed funding. But what that tells me is the program obviously worked and was a catalyst for more heat pumps to be installed in Canada. And that's part of driving the awareness and education for this technology, which is really I see it as a no regrets type technology to ramp up even faster.

Trevor Freeman 23:55

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, Shawn. And I think that's part of what we're trying to do here on the show, as you know, and have these conversations of what are those key strategies, technology solutions that are out there that are going to help us address climate change? And what are the policy levers that are going to help make those solutions easier to implement, both at the large scale and for individual homeowners and residents? So there's some great thoughts there. So I'm curious, Shawn, you've got your heat pump installed. Now what's next on your decarbonisation journey?

Shawn Carr 24:32

Yeah, so the next thing I think the next thing for me will definitely be addressing space heating so it's my gas water heater that I want to replace next with a hybrid heat pump water heater. And the reason I'm thinking about that now is that my water heater is currently nine years old. You know, water heaters typically lasted 10 to 12 years. So again, much like I did with the heat pump, I don't want to wait until the water heater fails to be able to decide, you know, to be put on the spot and sort of be forced to make a decision quickly. So I've already gone out and done a bunch of research on hot water heat pumps and received a few quotes. And so really now it's just a matter of when to make the decision to move forward with the project. But that will, that will be next. And then I'm very excited to get an EV. And that will be something that I spent a lot of time researching about, but an EV will certainly be next on my list. And then after both of those two things I've been giving some thought about increasing the amount of generation that I have on my own home, I do have six kilowatts of solar on my roof, but I do have room to add more. And so thinking about maybe adding some more solar and eventually combining it with some storage that'll be probably a little bit further away. I don't know if I can convince my wife to do all of these things right now. But for me, it'll be the water heater next, then EV. And then potentially some solar storage. And I'm a bit of a technology nerd. So given the all the smart home technology that's been evolving and emerging in the market to kind of manage all of these new electrification technologies and so on, I'm always sort of looking at kind of what what's the next piece of tech that might help me track my energy better understand my energy better my carbon footprint and so on. And so yeah, always playing around with different tools in that regard, too. So that's what's next for me.

Trevor Freeman 26:35

Perfect. Yeah, that's great to hear. And some great ideas out there. I'm curious kind of to wrap us up here today, for someone who's just starting out. So for our listeners are out there kind of thinking of electrifying their own lives. Where does someone start? Where do you think someone should really kind of take that first step?

Shawn Carr 26:54

Yeah, that's a great question. I think. So if you want to start down the journey, first of all, I What I'd say is it does really depend if you're motivated by emissions reductions, or energy cost savings. But regardless of what your motivations are, I think, you know, the process that I would probably recommend for most is the default approach is likely going to be when it dies, electrify. I think that just thinking pragmatically is, you know, equipment lasts a long time. And you've, you really have one opportunity to make the right decision. And so, you know, for anyone out there has an appliance that's dying, or their car is end of life, or their heating system is getting older, I think, you know, I would, you know, encourage everyone to think about when it dies, electrify all that to be said, I do recommend that it's really important to have a plan because it will allow you to do some advanced preparation so that you're ready for that first or next electrification project. And I think you know, that plan can come from having a home energy audit done, for example, but it also your plan should take into consideration your current electrical service size, because you can save a lot of money on your electrification journey, if you can avoid having to do a service upgrade. So if you have a 100 amp service, for example, which is the most common here in Ontario, there's still a lot you can do. From an electric electrification standpoint, with that service size, let's assume you now have a plan, you've determined you have some surface capacity on your panel, you're motivated to reduce emissions, I would probably tackle things in this order. First of all, because we live in a cold climate, I would start with some air sealing and maybe insulation upgrades. And the reason for that is these types of efficiency upgrades can enable other electrification measures to be sized appropriately. So for example, right sizing your heat pump as an example. You want to address your air sealing first because that could save you money on the upfront cost of putting in that heat pump. So now your home is reasonably efficient. You're trying to do decide what to do next, depending on whether you're following that when it dies electrify approach or not the order in terms of emissions impact would probably be for just most residential homeowners are, one an EV if you already have a car number two would definitely a be a heat pump and you know for Canadians depending on where you live in the country, probably a cold climate heat pump and then number three would be the the heat pump water heater I think those are the for me, what are the big three? And the emphasis that I'm placing on heat pump technologies both for space heating and in water heating is because you know, those two things account for about 60 to 80% of emissions due to our cold climate and the prevalent use of natural gas for heating purposes. So cold climate heat pump technology is really incredible. It's a game changer for emissions reductions. And as I mentioned earlier, it is a no regrets action that you can take home. And for most people, you're going to see bill savings as a result of that technology investment as well. Aside from that, if any of your large load appliances fail, or if you're considering a level two EV charger, for example, I would consider power efficient appliances that use less load on your panel, because this is going to reduce your electricity demand and leave more capacity for other electrification initiatives. It's also going to leave more room on the grid for your neighbors to electrify so when I mentioned earlier, although a heat pump water heater is next for me, one of the things I forgot to mention is in planning and getting quotes for that heat pump. I also worked with an electrician to do a load calculation and actually looked at my electricity load over the last two years because I wanted to understand in advance what electrification projects can I move forward with right and I confirmed through doing that load analysis that I do have the room in my panel to do both the heat pump water heater and eventually the level two EV charger, but I'm going to have to go with a smaller level two EV charger. So a 32 amp charger as opposed to a 40 amp charger just based on my low profile so far. But this comes back to it's really important to have an electrification plan and try to work with the service within the service capacity you have because ultimately, that can obviously save you save you more money up front. And the last thing I'd say is if you want the full electrification meal deal, we can talk about solar storage, smart panels and home automation. But that's probably best left for another podcast, Trevor.

Trevor Freeman 32:04

Yeah, absolutely. And just for our listeners, there will be lots more of this to come. I think there's a lot of conversations we can have around everything from heat pump technology, to some of the smart technology coming out there, electrifying our homes and electrifying our lives is going to be a really big part of the future for a lot of us and trying to figure out that order. So it's great to hear some of your thoughts, Shawn, it's great to hear some of the journey that you've been on. And I really can't stress enough the importance, as you said, of starting to think about this, each of us in our own lives and trying to put that plan together so that when that furnace dies, or that you know, your your gas stove dies, and you need to replace it, you already know what you plan on doing. And maybe you've even got quotes or you've talked to that contractor and you have a plan and you're not left investing in a technology that's going to lock you into some emissions for the next, you know, 10 15 20 years. So great to hear your thoughts on that, and thanks a lot, Sean, for sharing your experience.

Shawn Carr 33:07

You're welcome.

Trevor Freeman 33:08

So, yeah, great. That kind of brings us to the end here. And as you know, from having been on the podcast before, we always wrap up with a series of questions here. And just a warning, since the last time you were on, I've actually kind of changed them up a little bit. So as long as you're ready, we'll dive right into those questions.

Shawn Carr 33:27

Yeah, sounds good, Trevor. Let's do it.

Trevor Freeman 33:29

Okay, so let's start by finding out what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

Shawn Carr 33:36

Well, I'm not sure everyone should read it. But if you want to learn more about what we discussed today, and get really inspired by a realistic and feasible blueprint for fighting climate change, I am currently reading a book called electrify and optimist playbook for our clean energy future. And it's written by Saul Griffith who I just have a ton of respect for. I couldn't listen to Saul talk all day long. But it's a really good read.

Trevor Freeman 34:07

Great. Yeah, that is a fantastic book. So same question, but what about a movie or a show that you think everyone should watch?

Shawn Carr 34:15

Hmm, well, it's the NA, it's the NHL playoffs right now. So I'm not watching movies or TV shows. But the show that always left me wanting more was Game of Thrones. I love Game of Thrones.

Trevor Freeman 34:27

It's true. I mean, I wish we could get more that feels like an edge that won't be scratched. But hey, you never know. So if someone offered you a free round trip anywhere in the world right now, where would you go?

Shawn Carr 34:41

Well, I know both my wife and I would be on the same page here and it would definitely be Africa. And I know you live there. So when we're ready to plan our trip, I'll be reaching out to you.

Trevor Freeman 34:53

Yeah, that's right. For our listeners, I did spend some time living in a couple of different parts of Africa. So happy to To share thoughts with you. Who is someone that you admire?

Shawn Carr 35:04

I'd say definitely that would be my parents. They are kind, compassionate, supportive, fun, and great people. And those are all just qualities that I admire and people in general. So I gotta say, my parents.

Trevor Freeman 35:24

And finally, Shawn, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?

Shawn Carr 35:30

Yeah, for me, it's definitely the energy, just the energy transition in general, because it's in my mind the pathway to a cleaner and more sustainable future for future generations. And so I think for me that that would be that's what really gets me up in the morning and gets me excited to come to work at hydro Ottawa every day. I also love all the innovation and technology advancements that the energy transition is driving as well. So yeah, those are the things that excite me about the energy sector right now.

Trevor Freeman 36:02

Yeah, I mean, knowing you well, and I'm the same way I know that you like all the sort of new toys and new bells and whistles and functionality that we're seeing come out. And I think we're both pretty excited about that. Shawn, it's been great chatting with you today. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, sharing your journey, sharing your experience and some of your insight into what residential homeowners might have in store for them as they tried to electrify their lives as well. So thanks very much.

Shawn Carr 36:30

No, thanks for having me. And I look forward to our next podcast.

Trevor Freeman 36:35

Absolutely. Yeah, there's no end of things that we can chat about. So we'll for sure have you on again.

Shawn Carr 36:40

Thanks, Trevor.

Trevor Freeman 36:42

Thanks a lot, Shawn. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you can leave us a review and really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com

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If electrification is the future of energy, the grid must become more efficient and more reliable. All across Canada, from province to province to right here at home in Ottawa. Jenna Gillis, Manager of Distribution System Integration at Hydro Ottawa, joins thinkenergy to discuss the process. Listen to episode 136, as she shares how Ottawa’s electricity grid is being updated with an Advanced Distribution Management System (ADMS) and what this means for you, your family, and residents throughout the region.

Related links

• EV Everywhere Pilot Project: https://hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy/save-energy-homes/ev-everywhere
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Transcript Ep 136

Fri, Apr 26, 2024 9:47AM • 55:30

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

talked, grid modernization, grid, information, customers, devices, data, change, system, energy, asset, technology, call, great, operators, Ontario, working, dynamic, sense, distribution

SPEAKERS

Trevor Freeman, Jenna Gillis

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, I think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone, welcome back. I'm pretty excited about today's topic, because we're going to be tackling something a little bit technical. And that's always fun. And today is going to be the first of what might end up being a few different episodes looking at this term called grid modernization. So today, we're going to do just a high-level overview. And then over the next few months, there'll be a couple of different episodes that will dive deeper into some of the specific aspects of grid modernization. So that term grid modernization can be a little bit daunting, but that's okay. Our goal here is to pull apart these topics to better understand what they are and how they impact all of us, you know, from those of us working in the energy sector, all the way to the end users of our product, if you will, our electricity customers. So, let's start by a bit of a primer. And I think it'll be helpful to start by talking about what the grid is. So, the electrical power grid has been called the world's largest machine, and the greatest engineering achievement of the 20th century. And for good reason, thinking of it as a machine is a great metaphor, because just like a car, or a sewing machine or a snow blower, there are a lot of parts. And if any one of those parts breaks or isn't working as it's supposed to be, that will impact the overall function of the machine. And the same is true for the grid. And the parts we're talking about here are the holes, the conductors or wires, the transformers, the switches, as well as the many different sensors and meters and communication devices that help the humans in the mix, monitor and control things. The difference though, is that you know, even for a complex machine, like a car, there are hundreds or maybe even a couple 1000 parts. But the electricity grid, even if we just look at let's say hydro Ottawa as territory, there are hundreds of 1000s of parts. And if we scale that up to Ontario's grid, we're talking about millions and millions of individual parts all working together, so that when you turn your lights on at home, electricity that was generated hundreds or 1000s of kilometers away, flows into your device and makes it work. That's pretty impressive. And if any one of those millions of parts breaks, there's an impact somewhere on the grid. If multiple things break, or if there's something really critical that isn't working. That's a major problem. And we've seen these major problems. We've seen large scale outages. And you know, we tend to focus on Ontario's grid on this show, because that's what we call home. But our grid is connected to our neighboring grids, who are connected to their neighbors to form really an interconnected North American grid across Canada and the United States. It really is a modern engineering marvel. And, you know, we didn't just get here by chance. This was kind of designed, you know, back at the early days of the 20th century in the early 1900s. Electrical pioneers met for the first time in what is now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss what it would look like to wire Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Our predecessor company, the Ottawa hydroelectric commission, connected to that provincial grid in 1916. So, what we know as the Ottawa grid and our service territory is over 100 years old today. Before that, across Ontario, reliable and continuous power in the region was kind of uncommon, and really dependent on whether someone in the area like a major business or a wealthy individual had invested in a localized electricity grid for their own needs. An interconnected provincial grid was designed and implemented with a goal of making electricity available to all Ontarians regardless of where they lived. And that kind of evolution of the grid in Ontario is similar to how it worked in other parts of North America and indeed the world. That's kind of how grids came about in the last century. Ontario's electricity grid, however, like all grids around the world, was really designed as a one-way street. So, the idea was to generate and then transmit, and then deliver that electricity to customers in that order. Back then, those pioneers really couldn't have imagined an electricity grid that would need to support two-way interactive things like small scale distributed renewable energy, you know, solar panels on roofs or electric vehicles, or energy storage, and a whole host of other things that, you know, want to do more than just draw power from the grid. As we've talked about the ongoing energy transition, and electrification, which is being driven by the pressures of climate change, is really driving a societal shift to bring the electricity system into the 21st century, and to make sure it's powered with clean, renewable electricity. So, our grid is starting to undergo this major transformation. And we won't be able to do that effectively or affordably by just using the same strategies and technologies and the same pace that we've been doing it at over the last 100 plus years. We need to take it to the next level; we need to rethink what we're doing to upgrade the grid and how we're doing it. And that's really what grid modernization is, it's not saying we don't have a modern grid, it's realizing that the grid of 10 years from now needs to be different in a much bigger way than it's different from how it was 10 years ago, that pace of change needs to happen quicker. And we need to bring on new functionality. It's not just you know, incremental change anymore. To help us make some sense of this. I'm really happy to have Jenna Gillis to chat with today. Jenna is the manager of distribution system integration at hydro Ottawa and is leading this major project that we're calling at a high-level grid modernization, or more specifically, our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. Jenna has been with hydro Ottawa for 16 years and has held a number of different roles on the operations and systems side of our business and really knows how our grid operates, how it's been operating, how the humans in the mix control things. And what's necessary to get us to that next stage that we've been talking about. Jenna, welcome to the show.

Jenna Gillis 07:04

Great. Thanks, Trevor. excited to talk to about this today.

Trevor Freeman 07:07

Yeah, I'm excited to. So, let's start at kind of a high level here and help our listeners understand how we currently operate our grid today. So, paint the picture for those of us who don't kind of get to see what happens behind the scenes. How do we control things today?

Jenna Gillis 07:23

Yeah, for sure. So, what people might not realize that we actually have people sitting in a control room centralized control room that looks at our system 24/7 365. So, we've got people monitoring the system all the time. And they look at the grid state, and they help direct field activities. They look at triaging outages as they become aware of them. And right now, we've got visibility to our control room to all of our substations, so all of our, you know, high level devices, but only down to about 8% of the feeders and not actually all the way out to our customer level. So, what does that mean? That means that we still rely on customers calling us or reporting online when they experience an outage. And all of that information does make its way back into our control room operators. And it goes into a system we call the outage management system, which helps us track and identify where we might be seeing issues out on the grid. So, the operators then use that information to help make decisions in terms of controlling the grid where they need to open up closed devices where they need to send field crews to restore power. So, on top of that, most of these activities are done by field crews. So, the system operators are in direct contact with our crews out in the field and providing direction on where to go, what devices to you know, have them physically open or close in the field. And we've got about 10% of our system right now that has remote capabilities. So that means that the operators can choose to open or close those devices, basically at a click of a button back in the office sitting at a computer. So, most of what we do today really is human based and does take an expert control operator to be monitoring the systems and making the decisions.

Trevor Freeman 09:08

Yeah, so we've got this like really complex system. It's, you know, state of the art system, if you will, that requires, like you say experts to keep track of what's happening to identify problems and make decisions based on the information they're getting. I just want to pick apart a few things you said there. So, when we're talking about our substations, just for our listeners, those are, you know, spots in our grid where we take higher voltage and step it down via transformers to a lower voltage, and then send that out on wires. That's what we call our feeders to our end customers. We know what's happening at that substation level, we can see whether the power is flowing or not whether switches are open or not. But once it gets past that we lose some of that visibility. That's kind of what I'm hearing from you

Jenna Gillis 09:57

Yeah, exactly. And so that's why I'm saying like we still rely on those notifications from our customers to let us know where they're seeing the problems. And, you know, it comes into a system that, that we can look at in conjunction with that visibility that we have on the substations to help us understand what's going on.

Trevor Freeman 10:12

Right. So obviously, it was such a, you know, an ordered and complex system, we're constantly in proving and renewing and upgrading. That's not new. That's not something that we're just starting. But as I've kind of hinted at in the opening there, we do need to change how we do things. So, before we look into where we're going, how do we renew and upgrade today, what's our current process.

Jenna Gillis 10:36

So, we do have a robust asset management framework. So that's basically a program that tells us and we look at all of our asset information. And that's whether that's poles, wires, transformers, switches, breakers, basically anything we have out on the distribution system, and we look at and prioritize where we need to invest and where we need to renew, replace, install, upgrade, all of that kind of stuff. So basically, as we do that, right now, we go through, and we'll incorporate new technologies, like these remote-control switches, like these sensors to bring information back into the control room to help us continue to evolve, meet our customer or system needs. So, this, this process has worked really well in the past in terms of keeping pace with technology and the requirements of the grid and our customers. But right now, we're seeing that it's we're falling behind, it's too slow to parallel installation of these new technological devices, with these asset renewals or installation. So, I mean, if you think about it, you know, a pull out with wires on it can last over 50 years, we can't wait until we're replacing those 50 years from now to go in and add these new technological advancements. So, what that means is now we're looking at a hybrid approach. So of course, we're going to continue to parallel activities where it makes sense with these asset renewals and upgrades and replacements. But we also need to strategically start placing these devices in areas that we're going to gain benefit from, and I'm talking about benefit from a control room operator perspective, benefit from a safety or field crew perspective, but also where we can provide value to our customers in terms of, you know, expediting restoration efforts, or, you know, providing more flexibility into the system to allow more customer connections, whether that be, you know, new residential developments, or whether that's, you know, the next solar panel or battery or something like that.

Trevor Freeman 12:25

Yeah, waiting for anybody who's familiar with kind of technological adoption curves and the pace of technological change, you talk about 50 years is the life of some of this equipment, the difference between technology and let's say, 1930, and 1980, wasn't a huge jump when it comes to poles and wires and transformers. But today, the difference of 50 years is night and day that we're not talking at all about the same technology. So, we can't wait for that whole cycle to go through before we're getting some of the tech in today that we need today in order to upgrade the system. So that's helpful to understand what that looks like. So, let's look forward then. And when we talk about where we want to go with grid modernization, how we want to change that, talk us through what we're trying to accomplish.

Jenna Gillis 13:14

Yeah, so I think I'm going to paint a little bit of a picture here in terms of how I think about grid modernization, because that's really helped me contextualize the way that we need to do things differently. So, I think of grid modernization, that program in entirety as like a stacked or a layer pyramid. At the bottom, you have field devices. So, you have equipment that's remotely controlled, or providing data in the field. So, you know, we're talking about sensors, or meters or switches, things like that. That's your foundation. On top of that, you then need a way to get that information back-to-back to systems back to people. So, then you need a communication infrastructure. So, you need to be able to take that data and funnel it where it needs to go, which is the third layer data management, you need to store, organize, create access to that field data. And then finally, the fourth triangle right at the very top is your applications and analytics later. So now you've got the data coming from the field, you're bringing it back, and you're managing it. So now what are you going to do with that information. So, these are the applications and analytics. So really the tools that digest that data and ultimately help make decisions. So that is what I envisioned kind of as the grid modernization pyramid. And you need each one of those layers to unlock the value from the layer below it. So, you can't really have one without the other all the way up to the top. So, what we need to start doing is thinking about these layers in a programmatic fashion. What we've done historically is looked at the requirements on a project by project or program by program basis. So basically, you would unlock each one of those layers for that specific project or program requirements. What we need to start doing now is that grid modernization is going to be the foundation for everything we do. So basically, every project, every program is going to require some level of information, data management, analytics, communication. So, the way we're looking at that is this is now becoming a foundation to everything we do. So, we need to be programmatic, roll this out so that regardless of what we're doing in the future, we have this foundation to rely on. And we're not building it piece by piece as we work through, you know, project life cycles. So really, what's different when I talk about grid modernization assets, and I'm talking about meters, or sensors or remote-control devices, is the integrated nature. So, we talked about that pyramid, you can't use these devices without any one of those layers, whereas you think of a traditional asset like a pole, you can, you know, load it up at a truck, and somebody can go and put it in the ground. So, it's really the true convergence. Now we're seeing what we, you know, our information technology, our IT systems, our operational technology, or OT systems, and then operations and asset management. So, we really need to be looking at these things together, as one, making sure we're all aligned to unlock each one of these layers.

Trevor Freeman 16:15

Yeah, it really highlights the, I guess, cascading impacts of projects and decisions and bringing on new technology across the entire distribution, business and how we do things and how we serve our customers. One is impacting the other in ways that hasn't really, truly been the case before. So that's a great way of painting it. Thanks, Jenna. Let's talk about kind of the why behind this, what are the benefits that we're going to see by taking this approach by taking this sort of accelerated upgraded process that we're doing? What are we going to gain from this?

Jenna Gillis 16:54

So, our overall grid modernization strategy is guided by five key objectives. So, I'll go through each one of those and give you kind of a high-level blurb on what it is that we're trying to achieve with grid modernization. So, the first one is enhancing reliability. So, the more monitoring devices you have in the field to understand the state of the grid, the more remote capabilities you have in order to operate. And you know, isolate and restore, the better reliability has the ultimate goal is moving towards an automated process, where you have all of the foundation of the equipment, the communication channels and the audit, the analytics to make decisions, you can get outages restored much more quickly. The next one is what we call flexibility. So adaptive grid flexibility. So, we want to make sure that the grid is dynamic to all of these changing energy demands that we're seeing come online, so things like heat pumps, or electric vehicles, or solar generation or battery, we want to provide more options for the connections and be able to have the grid respond dynamically to these changing conditions. Next one we have is fortified resilience and robust security. So, resilience is really about the ability to do to withstand disruptions. And I'm talking about that from, you know, a physical asset perspective, but maybe also a technology perspective, as well, we want to make sure that we have a good diversity, to be able to recover from disruptions. So, we know there will always be disruptions, as we've seen, kind of with the weather and the little last little while. And then as we get more and more connected, we need to make sure we're safeguarding assets from cyber threats, core to everything we do, we want to make sure that we're thinking about the customer. And so, we're looking towards strengthening customer engagement and empowerment. So, we've talked about, you know, getting more data back from the field and being able to unlock new ways of doing things, new tools, and providing some of this information back to the customers to help them be better informed about their energy uses, and their, low profile and what they want to do with their equipment. And then finally, sustainable decarbonization of renewable energy integration. So, we really want to look at reducing our carbon footprint by optimizing our planning and operations processes. So, we talked about it a little bit about automation, you know, that will reduce our need to roll trucks for crews to physically go out in the field and operate devices. And basically, everything above we talked about was, you know, being able to incorporate renewable energy sources. We want to make sure that we have the ability to bring these resources online and leverage them.

Trevor Freeman 19:34

Yeah, I mean, it really kind of, again, not to kind of reiterate the same things we're talking about, but it it's an all-encompassing type of project like everything we're trying to do everything we talk about on this show, when it comes to the energy transition, whether that's having a more robust, sustainable, smart grid on the utility side of things, to enabling the kinds of things our customers want to do in terms of adding in more DER's, more self-generation and storage, this project is kind of the foundation work. And that's going to support all of those efforts. And we're really only going to get so far without doing this kind of work, which stresses the importance of it.

Jenna Gillis 20:19

Yeah, it really does unlock so much more by having this level of information and visibility into our system that we want to achieve.

Trevor Freeman 20:27

Yeah, that's great. Okay, so let's kind of dive in here you have this overall strategy that you and your team have outlined, which you're calling our grid modernization roadmap. Walk us through the main components of this and kind of the timelines that you've laid out? Is this a six months project? I say that kind of laughing, knowing is not a six-month project? How long is this going to take? And what are the major components of this.

Jenna Gillis 20:53

So hopefully, I've done some justification in terms of, you know, mapping out how complex this actually is to deploy. And so, our grid modernization roadmap is set out, basically a set of initiatives over the next 10 plus years. So, we've kind of, you know, got a good handle on the objectives we want to unlock over the next 10 years. And so, we've laid out, what do we need to do to unlock those, and what's the timing of that. So, we also need to understand that this is going to be dynamic and constantly evolving with, you know, technology or market drivers. So you know, this roadmap is only as good as it is today until you know, something changes tomorrow. And we recognize that this is going to have to be dynamic and evolving. So due to the complexity of it, we decided to basically bucket the program into six different component layers so that we can really get a sense of how one feeds into the next as I kind of talked a little bit about the pyramid before. So, the first one is physical infrastructure. Number two is sensing and measurement. The third is communication. Fourth is data management and analytics. Number five is control and optimization. And then finally, the last number six is business and regulatory. And so all of our initiatives fit underneath one of those six components.

Trevor Freeman 22:12

Okay, so let's dive in and pull them apart that I'd love to kind of talk more about each of those. And just for our listeners, we're going to keep this fairly high level, because we don't have time to get into super detail on all six. But the plan is actually to take future episodes and maybe pull apart some of these in more detail. So if you're super interested in what we're talking about today, don't worry, we'll dive into more detail. So, let's start at the top with physical infrastructure. What does that entail?

Jenna Gillis 22:40

So the physical infrastructure component really targets the challenges and opportunities posed by electric vehicles electrification, climate vulnerability on the grid itself. So, we talked a little bit about the fact that we need to start adapting, or continue to adapt our asset management practices to address these factors. So you know, what does that mean that that's things like I talked about before about increasing the rate that we add new technology or remote switches and sensors and things like that into the system. And I talked before about resiliency and flexibility. And a corporate part of this is, you know, incorporating an increased level of climate risk consideration into our, you know, acid assessments and our plan for renewal or replacement of those devices.

Trevor Freeman 23:28

Yeah, so this part of the strategy is really about, you know, the actual devices in the field that are going to be installed the new technology that we want to get out into the field on our grid. Let's pick apart that last piece a little bit, the climate vulnerability, how are we also trying to, you know, for lack of a better word, harden our grid, or make it a little more resilient to some of the weather events we're seeing?

Jenna Gillis 23:52

Yeah, so I think everybody's probably well aware that it's not about, you know, if we're going to see, you know, another large weather round, it's about, it's about when. We've always incorporated those types of things into our asset planning. But now, the frequency and severity of these things is becoming higher and higher. So, what we started looking at is, you know, reliability has always been a priority. But now we're shifting gears a little bit to resilience. So, I talked about that before. And that's more about withstanding and recovering quickly from the events, like I said, we know they're going to happen. So how are we going to make sure that we can recover as quickly as possible. So, with looking at that, we're looking at things like reviewing our design elements, like strengthening the poles that we install or doing strategic undergrounding and sections of overhead lines that we know have a high exposure, and like subsequent consequence of failure. So, we are building all of these strategies now as well into that asset management in the deployment of what we're putting out into the field.

Trevor Freeman 24:50

Great. And again, just for our listeners, you know, I want to talk more about what we're doing and what can be done on that climate resiliency piece. So there, you know, keep your eyes open for further episode on that down the road. Okay, so the next piece you talked about is sensing and measurement at a high level, talk us through what that what that means and how that contributes to overall grid effectiveness.

Jenna Gillis 25:13

Yeah, so sensing and measurement is more than just installing the physical devices that we kind of talked about in the previous component. And its devices like sensors to detect faults and report back and where there might be disturbances or outages on the system. And it's more than just meters on customer homes, it's about integrating that data back into our grid management systems. So, you know, our ultimate goal is to have real time access to all of the data from our customer meters, you know, that's over 350,000 meters. But to achieve this, we need to have a robust strategy to transfer that information store that information, at the right frequency, meaning in terms of, you know, how often do we get the information from these devices? And how often do we receive that information back in the office for all of the different use cases, and there’s, you know, there's hundreds of use cases for that information. So, this does represent a significant shift in the way that we're using our meters right now. Right now, when I talk about our customer meters, we take a reading from those once every 24 hours, with hourly level of granular data. So, it's basically once every 24 hours, we get 24 points of data. You know, and we're talking about what we want to do with grid modernization, we're looking at, you know, reading those meters, you know, once a minute with more information. So you can see there is a huge shift in the way that we've got kind of the infrastructure set up around those things.

Trevor Freeman 26:43

When you talk about those numbers, so 24 data points every or every day, changing to potentially reading every minute. Remember, we're multiplying that by 350,000. So that's a huge amount of data. And, you know, Jenna and I are working for hydro Ottawa here, one of the sorts of medium size utilities in the province of Ontario, we've got other utilities in the sector that have millions of customers. So, the importance of data and how we handle that, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute is certainly really high on the priority list. You know, some of what you mentioned there sounds a lot like what we call advanced metering infrastructure 2.0 or AMI 2.0. So, for that kind of in the industry that know what that is, that's maybe the next generation of meters, we might be talking about, how does that differ from the existing smart meters that exist all across Ontario? And that doesn't mean they exist everywhere in North America, but at least in Ontario, we've got kind of what we call AMI 1.0. What does AMI 2.0 look like? And how does that change things?

Jenna Gillis 27:50

Yeah, so there's kind of one key critical factor, AMI 1.0 was rolled out with, you know, one main purpose, that's billing. And so, our meters are set and our communication infrastructure is set up to again, report back on a frequency that makes sense for monthly billing. So, like I said, in other words, that's a once a day reading. And so that data is stored and available the next day, so not, not what we would call real time. So, this information is incredibly valuable. And we do use it for planning and supporting operational processes. But it doesn't allow us to respond real time to the conditions on the system, right down to that customer level. So, AMI 2.0, which is basically fate. You know, the next step from that first level of having, you know, meters that we can read remotely from the office is more just about than, like I mentioned before about installing sensors, it's not just changing those meters, we talked about the data requirement. And so, it's also a substantial upgrade to our communication infrastructure to get that higher volume of data back from the field. And what are we going to use that information for? Like, why is it important to have it real time as opposed to you know, the next day, it's because these meters will be able to give us things like a power off notification. So, we talked before about the fact that we do still rely right now on our customers calling in to let us know that they are out of power in the future with AMI 2.0. The intention will be that these meters will report right back into that outage management system. And we will know as soon as that meter sends a signal, say, Oh, I've lost power. The second piece of that is we'd want to know when your power comes back on. So, we're going through we're doing our restoration efforts, we want to make sure that we're picking everybody up. So we'd also be able to get a signal coming back on and say like yep, I just turned back on. So having this visibility right down to the customer level gives us so much more flexibility in terms of how we can respond to the system in real time. The other one it also opens a whole bunch of other future use cases such as you know, we talked about unlocking benefits for our customers as well but real time data but their energy uses and you know, providing additional tools or software to help them look at their consumption and overall save money on their bill. So, I'm then that's a future step. We're not there today, but the work is on the way to achieve that. And that, you know, those are some of our guiding principles around what we're doing for grid modernization. Yeah, really highlights how powerful it can be to know what's happening in real time at every, you know, end use of our entire grid, every customer knowing exactly where the issues are exactly when they get resolved or don't get results. So that's pretty powerful information. So, as we've kind of talked about, there's a natural tie over from having that sensing and metering equipment out in the field, gathering that data, and then getting that data back to our system office where we can use it. And that's where communication comes in. So, tell us about the critical role that our communication technology will play. So today, hydro has a communication network that we've spent our entire service to territory, and it uses a bunch of different technologies or different channels like cellular networks, radio, fiber phone lines, so we've got a diverse communication network that sees across our service territory. So again, kind of parallel in the way that we've been deploying some of these smart technologies. This strategy is very effective and accommodating the sensing and measurement control devices that we've been doing today. But again, we are talking about an increase in data we're talking about an increase of physical devices means that we need faster higher capacity methods to get that data from the field back into our systems. So again, this is all part of the strategy that we're focused on is making sure that we have this backbone communication infrastructure ready to connect these devices into. We don't have all the answers on that yet. But we know roughly where we need to get to. And again, it's part of this roadmap to make sure that we achieve those objectives.

Trevor Freeman 31:47

So, when we talk about communication and sending data over communication networks, increasingly, we all know, the challenges with cybersecurity. And people may be wondering, how are we going to protect all this data that's now flowing, that's giving real time information about you know, power use on our grid? How does cybersecurity fit in within this plan?

Jenna Gillis 32:08

So, we do have a robust cybersecurity standard that we follow, and a dedicated team who looks after these things for us. So, as we know, as the grid becomes more and more connected, cybersecurity becomes an even more crucial part of this. And it's a critical factor. And we you know, we mentioned it as one of the core objectives of the program is to, you know, maintain our security. So if you think about it in the past, when we went and you know, just installed a device that, you know, somebody could go in and control from a bucket truck, you didn't have to incorporate cybersecurity standards, you didn't have to, you know, have a device, go through the multiple levels of checks and validation that we have to do things today. So, it is another shift in the way that we operate, right is that and again, we need to keep pace on the technology standpoint of things, not just the physical device.

Trevor Freeman 32:58

Totally. Okay. So, there's definitely a bit of a flow here, because we talked about the data in the field, we talked about communication. Now we've got that data coming into hydronic, into our system office, we kind of move into that next piece, you talked about data management and analytics. How does all this data help us transform our grid? What do we do with this data once we get it?

Jenna Gillis 33:22

Yeah, so raw data coming from the field isn't overly valuable, what you need to do is you need to have an established framework for that information to allow the users to access that in real time. And so, when I'm talking users right now, you know I'm talking about it could be a number of different meanings. But today, we're really talking about our hydro Ottawa control room operators, I'm talking about, you know, our planning teams, our operations teams, and our maintenance systems information. So, you need to make sure that you have a framework to access that information in meaningful formats. So, you know, eventually, once we get a sense of what this information is, and we have a robust strategy around it, we could be providing that information to customers for their energy management systems and use cases like we talked about before. So, the other piece is as we collect more and more information on the condition and use of our assets, we can refine and enhance our decision-making planning operations, asset management becomes more and more formed. So, each one of these pieces of data is critical, but you need to make sure that you have a strong framework around it. So, you are gleaning the value from that information.

Trevor Freeman 34:24

Yeah, I mean, you're kind of talking about analytics here. And, you know, analytics is essentially combing through that vast amount of raw data and pulling out insights to make smart evidence-based decisions. I know I'm asking you to kind of look in a crystal ball here, but what kinds of insights are you expecting to get once we have access to all this data?

Jenna Gillis 34:45

Yeah, so really, the expectation is, the more information we have about how the grid operates and performs under a variety of different conditions. We'll be better able to plan and optimize that configuration when I talked before about you know that grid resiliency, so What is the best configuration of our of our network? Where do we have problems downstream that we maybe didn't see before. But now we see. So, we can start setting things up differently. It will help us enhance our ability to appropriately size and prioritize our investments and make better use of the existing assets that we have. So, in light of all these uncertainties we got about electric vehicles electrification and climate risks. The more information we have at our fingertips, the quicker we're going to be able to respond and adjust our strategies to keep up with those market drivers.

Trevor Freeman 35:34

Yeah, you. So, asset utilization is a really fascinating piece. And again, you know, this isn't the episode to dive into that. But just quickly, for our listeners, you know, you may be familiar that utility companies have to design to peak load. So, we need to be able to provide the highest amount of power that people need, whether it's a hot, sunny summer afternoon, and everyone's got their air conditioning on. But while we're not using that peak load, assets are sitting underutilized, we're not using the capacity we need. And the more of that capacity we can use, the better. And by putting in some of this technology. By gaining those insights, if we can do appropriate, switching or better planning to utilize our assets better, everybody wins, our grid is more effective, it's more economical. And I think we're all in better shape. So great to see where we're going with that. The next component you talked about is control and optimization. So, we talked about how we control the grid today and how it's kind of a manual process. We have, you know, really smart folks sitting in our system office who are making important decisions. How does that control evolve with this strategy?

Jenna Gillis 36:48

Yeah, so this layer, this control, and optimization is really about using all of that data to make informed decisions. So one, we're actually undergoing one big transformation, transformative project right now. And you referenced it earlier, it's our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. So what this is, is it's really a complete modernization of the software tools used by our control room operators. So the individuals sitting at the desk watching the state of the grid 24/7 365. So to give you a sense of what they're using today to see that picture is the operators have to interact with at least five separate systems right now that are not integrated to gain all that full picture. So the intent of this project, and the main driver is to paint one pane of glass for the operators, it's amalgamating those five separate systems into one view, to give them better insights into the status system. So we're going to be calcinating, these five systems, but also then incorporating more of this field data that we've talked about collecting as well. So, some of the things that we kind of lock with the advanced distribution management system that we aren't capable of doing today is working towards implementing a fault location, isolation and service restoration scheme. So, if you're in the industry, that's well known as FLISAR. So what this is

Trevor Freeman 38:06

a fantastic name, by the way.

Jenna Gillis 38:08

Yeah, what this is really about is two way communication to and from these field devices and sensors to get a sense of where we might be seeing issues on the distribution system. So where we have faults, or where we have outages occurring, this system will then it's an analytic platform that takes all the information back and it can propose to the operators switching to restore as many customers as we can and isolate that faulted section with line. This future step of that is once we get comfortable, and we know the system and the analytics are working effectively is to allow the system to do it automatically. So instead of proposing switching to an operator who can make the decision and then perform the switching or roll a field crew, eventually we'd be able to do this automatically. So once the system is configured, and we've got all those remotely operable devices in the field, we would allow the system to make automatic decisions and restore and isolate the faulted sections

Trevor Freeman 39:03

So I mean, you're talking about analyzing data and making decisions automatically. It's kind of sounds like AI a little bit, which, of course, is a pretty, you know, buzzword these days in a lot of different sectors. Does, does AI come into play here in terms of making decisions and controlling things on the grid?

Jenna Gillis 39:22

Yeah, so I mean, we have a number of use cases that we're looking at right now with AI. And obviously, the more data we get, the more opportunities we have to leverage technology and AI. So some of the things we're looking at right now is things like predicting and forecasting demand levels or load levels that are on the distribution grid based on you know, a number of inputs, so like the grid status, what's the weather going to be? What did you know? What was the historical loading and things like that? And when you have multiple factors like that, that feed into, you know, what is your customers load going to be? You need something like AI to be able to digest all of that information and come up with recommendations another one This is just analyzing multiple sensors and control boards to help us predict failures. So the more information we're getting back on the assets, we can use AI to help us explore build models to help us identify exceptions in those large amounts of data. And in order to be able to flag potential failures, and allow us to intervene and course correct before, you know, they potentially cause an outage or something like that.

Trevor Freeman 40:23

Yeah, so that would be and correct me if I'm, if I'm wrong here and interpreting this wrong. That's like, taking a bunch of data points on our existing equipment is running, maybe you know that the temperature that we're seeing, or the loading on that equipment and how that relates to its normal operating load, and be able to say, we think based on the operating conditions, this piece of equipment is likely to fail faster than otherwise it would, is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah,

Jenna Gillis 40:49

Yeah, exactly. Or even in real time, this piece of equipment is going to overload. And so you need to take intervention and move load around door, something like that as well. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.

Trevor Freeman 40:58

Yeah. And all of that data. I mean, that's all things that we know how to do. But no human can possibly do that in real time with the amount of data coming in. And so that's where some of this advanced technology and AI, artificial intelligence really comes into play to help us pull that out of the massive sea of data that we're going to be getting. Okay. Okay, so the last component, you mentioned it, you know, on the surface, it might seem like a bit of an outlier business and regulatory, but I think it really ties it all together. And it's, again, one of those foundational pieces. So, you know, that the electricity sector is highly regulated, as our listeners probably know, it's extremely complex to navigate. It has been accused, in the past of, you know, not being very conducive to innovation and change. What are some of the priority areas that you've identified, whether that's, you know, dialogue with our regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, or just, you know, regulations and policies, internal or external to our organization that that you think, need to come into play to make this modernization happen?

Jenna Gillis 42:06

Yeah, the whole objective of kind of the business and regulatory stream through good modernization is about building a holistic approach to build operational structures and processes to be able to address and respond to these dynamic market drivers. So, one of our big priorities right now is to raise awareness of this of this approach. And the fact that we're broadening our investment categories beyond what you know, I'd consider to be those traditional asset condition or reliability or end of life types of drivers to know, include and layer into it these system observability, these control points and this resiliency, which is a shift in terms of you know, how we we've justified or how a regulator has looked at the way that we do business in the past. But we also make sure we need to look internally. So, it's not just about looking externally and making sure that we're aligned with our regulator, but it's about looking at our internal business process to make sure that we're aligned to deliver the value that we've set out for the grid modernization objectives. So, we need to make sure that we have mechanisms to be able to measure our success, and feed that back into continuous improvement I talked about the roadmap is, is needing to be a dynamic, so we need to make sure that we're monitoring our progress towards the delivering of those chapters, and have ability to stop and pivot where we need to when we need to

Trevor Freeman 43:24

this kind of opened the door for new business models or new way of doing things? And are there like specific pilots that we're considering or specific initiatives?

Jenna Gillis 43:35

Yeah, there's, there's a lot going on in the electricity sector right now, one of the big kinds of hot topics right now is that there's indications that local distribution companies may need to in the future operate in a similar capacity to the way the Independent Electricity System Operator behaves. So, the ISO they control and dispatch the bulk systems. So, they look at they do forecasting on you know, the Ontario energy needs, and they throttle on and off generation and those types of things, the thought is, this is going to be needed at the local level. So, they look at you know, hydro, it was service territory level, we may need to look at dispatching generation and doing dynamic load management and things like that. And this is this is a holistic change to the way that we operate right now. And so, we need to be able to future proof ourselves to move down that path if that's where things go and dispatching energies resources. I said it kind of as you know, it's just it's one thing, but it's really, it's we talked about a little bit of a comprehensive analysis system to take in all of those inputs and understand forecasting and where things are going to be including an economic factor and all the different customer types, including, you know, the widespread adoption of electric vehicles or battery storage, so it can get to be quite a complex system.

Trevor Freeman 44:59

Yeah. it kind of sounds here, like you're talking about the distribution system operator model or DSO. And, and again, you know, like I've said a couple of times, I think there's a future conversation or future episode about that. But it's like you say, having the distributors, the local distribution companies, able to make decisions on how energy is used within our grid, and then that feeds up into how I saw was running the kind of broader provincial grid. So, I'll put a pin in that one. And we'll come back to that on a on a future episode.

Jenna Gillis 45:31

And, yeah, and so something that's important for us to understand too, is if we do go down the road of a DSO, we need to know where and what could impact our operations or where we could have those triggers or throttles on the distribution system. So right now, we're undertaking a pilot program as well, looking at EV charging, and we've called it EV everywhere. And I'm sure everybody's well aware that EVs are, you know, could be a huge dynamic load that show up on our system anywhere at any time whenever, whenever somebody wants to plug in their vehicle. And there's also talked about using EV batteries as an energy source to feed back into the system to help grid capacity constraints. While that still might be a long way off, there are still solutions that we want to manage to leverage the Chargers. And we've looked at, you know, instead of having everybody come in and come home from and you know, after work, plug in their EV and start charging at 5pm. And causing, you know, a new peak in our demand, looking to be able to stagger that charging and whether that's staggered at local community level, whether that's needing to stagger at, we talked about a substation level or whether we need to stagger that at a whole hydro Ottawa service, territory capacity. So, EV everywhere is really looking at the use of artificial intelligence to help us make those predictions about where and when and how long EV charging needs are required and being able to manage those devices. So that it reduces the impact on our distribution network. And we talked about increase our asset utilization. And we're hoping to be able to push that beyond just the pilot stage that we're in today.

Trevor Freeman 47:05

Yeah, and really, that's, you know, for, for the end user, for our customers, that's going to help us remove barriers to you getting that EV and being able to charge at home or where you live or where you work. So that we're not having to modify the grid drastically in order to allow that, we want to make that process as easy as possible. And this is testing out a strategy to do that. So, Jenna, that's super fantastic to hear about this roadmap that you have. And I mean, look, the listeners out there who know me know that I'm pretty optimistic, and I'm pretty excited about this stuff. But I think it's important to highlight some of the risks. So, it's a great roadmap, it's a great plan, what could trip us up what could get in the way of us being able to implement the strategy and rolling it out as you envisioned it?

Jenna Gillis 47:56

I think the first one is that this is, this is large, this is transformative. This touches multiple business areas and, and is, is driven by multiple outside influences. So, we need to make sure that we've got holistic change management strategies, we need to look at the pace of change that we're implementing, and not necessarily on the distribution grid, but also on our systems, our process our people. So, we need time to make sure that when we introduce a large change that we have some settle in, we have some time to adjust and correct and, you know, keep that dynamic continuous improvement process, as we move from one, it's going to be moved from one change to the next set at pretty rapid pace over the next few years. And with all that change, we need to have the right people, we need the right people, we need the right skill set. And some of these skills are things that we haven't done before. So, these are new responsibilities, new skill sets to the organization, and I'm going to put a little plug in here is that we're hiring right now. So, take a look at our careers page. And if I've, if I've painted an exciting picture, and you want to be a part of this, take a look. We're hiring some of those skill sets today. And this stuff is going to span multiple years, right? So, I feel like in the past, we kind of had you know, like, oh, well, that's a five year program. And then and then you're done no like this is this is going to be a continuous evolution. And these can span multi years. And I talked about it before, we need to be able to adapt and pivot to meet the requirements of technology and our customers. And we need to expect that and so we need to build the that ability to stay dynamic through these multiyear programs. To make sure that, you know, we maybe we need to change what our grid modernization objectives are halfway through, and that's okay, we can do that.

Trevor Freeman 49:36

Yeah, I think if there's one kind of common theme that comes up in these conversations that I get to have as part of, as part of the show is this is big change that we're talking about here. This is sort of fundamental change within not just one organization within an entire sector and we're all trying to figure out how we do it, we've all got different ideas, and we're working together. And I think your point about, we need the right people to do that we need people that are really passionate about this and really smart, and see the opportunity to create that change and realize, hey, you know, the utility is not a bad spot to do that it's kind of at the epicenter of a lot of what we're doing here when it comes to energy. So great thoughts. So, I mean, that's kind of the end of the grid modernization question. So I don't know if now we get into the easier part of the conversation or the harder part. By we,

Jenna Gillis 50:35

you're talking, you're talking to an engineer. So, when we talk personal, it's harder than the techniques of the technology.

Trevor Freeman 50:42

Awesome. Yeah, I can, I can definitely relate. So we always end our show with the same questions to our guests. And it just kind of helps us learn a little bit more about you. So as long as you're okay with it, we're going to dive right in.

Jenna Gillis 50:56

Yeah, let's do it.

Trevor Freeman 50:58

So what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

Jenna Gillis 51:01

So, I mean, I think I kind of already touched on it. And the fact that these were the more uncomfortable questions for me. One book that I read that I really enjoyed is as quiet the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking by Susan Cain. She has a TED talk, too. So, if you want to kind of get a short snippet of what she's talking about, but really, it's about dynamics of how our world emphasizes extraversion, and basically everything that we set up and everything we do, and so we need to make sure that we're allowing space for our introverts.

Trevor Freeman 51:31

Great, I like that. What about a movie or a show?

Jenna Gillis 51:35

So, I'm not a big movie person. But I've got a TV show. It's pretty niche. It's called the Curse of Oak Island, I'm sure probably not very many people know what I'm talking about. But I followed the story from the beginning. So, the show started airing a long time ago. It's basically about a 200-year-old treasure hunting mystery in Nova Scotia, touches on archaeology and some potential connections right back to the Knights Templar. So, I've become pretty invested in it. It's one show

Trevor Freeman 52:04

is your next vacation to Halifax to go and check out the Oak Island and find this treasure?

Jenna Gillis 52:09

You know, I think it would be pretty cool maybe once like to go and see what they're doing and like the size and scale of what they're doing, but I wouldn't necessarily dedicate a whole trip to it.

Trevor Freeman 52:21

Good to know well on that note, what if somebody offered you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world? Where would you go?

Jenna Gillis 52:29

Yeah, so not Nova Scotia. I'd love to be able to be out and see the northern lights. So somewhere like Iceland or Greenland, I think, seeing something totally different than what I'm used to here in here in Ottawa.

Trevor Freeman 52:44

very cool. Who is someone that you admire?

Jenna Gillis 52:47

So I feel like this is going to be really cliche given that Taylor Swift has recently released another album. But Taylor Swift, I think she's incredibly powerful and positive female influence and think she's a great role model. She's got strong big business strategy and authenticity. So, I think she's, she's a great role model for girls to be looking up to.

Trevor Freeman 53:12

Yeah, I'm, I'm currently I'm not ashamed to admit I'm currently going through her eras tour with my kids right now. We're watching it and kind of little bits and pieces here. And while we're watching, and I'm texting my nieces, because they're big. They're big Swifties. So that's a great example. And finally, and you're a great person to, to answer this question being kind of right out in the weeds of the energy change. What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?

Jenna Gillis 53:42

It's really about the pace of change. So I, you know, we talked about like, I've been with hydro water for about 16 years now. And I feel like we've always been saying it's coming. It's coming. It's right on the horizon, right. So it's here, we're seeing it, we've always been kind of forecasting and wondering when it was going to hit and it's here. So I love that we need to be innovative. I love that we need to rethink the way that we're doing things. And I'm super excited to start breaking down silos and building these cohesive strategies and working together to problem solve, because it's more important now than ever to, to build that integration with, you know, everybody on the team. So that's what I'm super excited about.

Trevor Freeman 54:18

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. That's, that's what keeps me coming into work every day to I really like them. Jenna, this has been a really great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights with us on what hydro Ottawa is doing when it comes to grid modernization and just kind of sharing your experience and your expertise on how we're changing and getting ready for the future. I really appreciate it.

Jenna Gillis 54:39

Well, thanks, Trevor. Hopefully I did. I did some justice to what we're doing. And hopefully I've piqued some interest in diving deeper into some of these very specific initiatives that we've got underway.

Trevor Freeman 54:51

Absolutely. And don't be surprised if I reach back out to you to come and dive deeper on some of those as well. So we'll have you back on another time.

Jenna Gillis 54:58

Perfect. Thanks a lot, Trevor. Appreciate it.

Trevor Freeman 55:01

Thanks. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review and really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or our guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydroottawa.com

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Ontario's electricity sector is evolving, as the province navigates the transition to cleaner energy amidst rising demand. In thinkenergy episode 135, we explore the grid's structure and key players, highlighting the crucial role of distributors (Local Distribution Companies or LDCs) in facilitating this transition. Guest Teresa Sarkesian, President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association (EDA), sheds light on LDCs' frontline efforts and pivotal contributions shaping the energy landscape.

Related links

• Teresa Sarkesian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-sarkesian-53898613/
• Electricity Distributors Association: https://www.eda-on.ca/
• Green Button information: https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/green-button
• Electrification and energy transition panel report: https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontarios-clean-energy-opportunity-report-electrification-and-energy-transition-panel
• Ontario Electricity Support Program: https://ontarioelectricitysupport.ca/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 0:07

Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at think energy at hydro ottawa.com Hi, everyone, welcome back. Now it's no secret that Ontario's electricity sector is transforming rapidly as it moves to both decarbonize the grid itself, you know, we have a very clean grid in Ontario, but it's not totally carbon free. And to support the growing demand for electricity as our customers across the province, take steps to electrify and change how they use energy. The show is all about exploring those changes, among other things, and today is no different. But before we dive into our conversation today, I think it would be helpful for me to spend just a few quick minutes on some basics about how our electricity grid is structured in Ontario, and who some of the key players are. Now I know some of our listeners will know this already, but it can be hard to keep track of all those key players. And Ontario's structure is a little different than some of the neighboring jurisdictions no two jurisdictions are exactly alike. So, a refresher is never a bad thing. Now the most basic description is that electricity is largely generated at central generation facilities. So, think nuclear power plants are your electric generating stations, some gas fired generating stations and large-scale wind and solar installations. We call these entities generators simple as that. That electricity is then transmitted across the province in an interconnected grid of high voltage transmission lines, which also connect to other jurisdictions such as neighboring provinces and states, and Ontario, Hydro One runs the transmission network. Now you've probably seen this transmission network. These would be the large metal towers that you see out in the middle of a field when you're driving along the highway or in rural areas that have electricity wires strung way up high in the air. The last stage before it gets to the end user is called distribution. So, this is where electricity is taken from those high voltage lines stepped down to a usable voltage for residential and commercial customers via transformers and substations, and then distributed over a network of overhead and underground wires, then these would be the wires that you would see at the top of those wooden or composite poles that are along the side of the road in your neighborhood. The entities that run this distribution part are called distributors, again, simple as that. So, there's a few other key players that are worth mentioning here. Energy Policy is primarily the jurisdiction of the provincial government, who sets the general direction and associated rules and regulations accordingly. The Ontario Energy Board or OEB is the regulatory body who governs what all those other players do and enacts the government mandate. And finally, at least for today's purposes, we have the system operator. It's called The Independent Electricity System Operator in Ontario, or IESO, who runs the system. So, if you're in Windsor, Ontario, or Ottawa, or North Bay, and you want to turn on your air conditioner, or plug your EV in to charge, the IESO is responsible for making sure there's enough power on the grid to handle that load. So, I hope everyone is still with me and feel free to pause and do some jumping jacks if that was a lot to take in. Our conversation today is going to be focused on the role of the distributor. So, for full disclosure, as you know, I work for hydro Ottawa who is one of those distributors, we serve most electricity customers in the City of Ottawa, and the neighboring village of Casselman and in Ontario, you will often hear distributors referred to as local distribution companies or LDCs. So, forgive me if I slip into that acronym throughout the conversation today, that's really just the sort of common name that we refer to those distributors as. But I'll try to mix it up and make sure that, that I'm explaining that acronym throughout as well. So, the distributor is really the front line, the customer facing entity of the entire electricity system. If you are an electricity customer, and you think about the electricity system, you are probably thinking about your distributor. Chances are you get your bill from a distributor, even though for most customers, most of what you pay on that bill doesn't actually go to the LDC. Some of it stays with your local distribution company, but most of it goes to the transmitter to the generator, to the IESO etc. When the power goes out, it's probably your LDC that you call and it's your LDC that will give you a restoration time. Sometimes outages are caused by issues up the line, so to speak in the transmission portion of the grid. But often the issue is a localized one. And it's your LDC that is identifying the problem and fixing it, whether that means rolling a truck to string new cable, or performing switching to work around the problem. And finally, it's your LDC that is really on the frontlines of the energy transition. While all parts of the grid must then have started to change, the LDCs are really working hand in hand with our customers to identify where and how fast and new demand is needed to bridge that gap between customers and policymakers to enable more and more renewable generation. And also to determine what new technologies or programs we need to pilot and scale up. And it's really the LDCs that are driving change in the way that electricity is managed at the individual customer level moving forward. So, to help us make some sense of this, I'm happy to have Teresa Sarkesian on the show today. Teresa is the president and CEO of the electricity Distributors Association, which is a role that she's held since 2016. This is actually Teresa second time on the show the first being back in December 2021. So we're happy to have Teresa back, Teresa, welcome back to the show.

Teresa Sarkesian 6:23

Thanks so much, Trevor. I'm really delighted to be back.

Trevor Freeman 6:27

Yeah, we're glad to have you. So, like I said, you were back on our show in 2021. I don't know if it's because of how COVID has changed our lives or if this is just the way things go. But sometimes, you know, weeks seem like years. So, 2021 is a long time ago. Let's start by refreshing our listeners on the role and mandate of the electricity Distributors Association.

Teresa Sarkesian 6:49

Sure, thing so the electricity Distributors Association, or the EDA our little acronym represents Ontario's public and private electric utilities that distribute electricity to 5.4 million homes, businesses and institutional customers across the province. And I should note that those 5.4 million customers really refers to build accounts so you have families that are behind a build account. So effectively the millions and millions of Ontarians and businesses that operate and live here are customers of our utilities. And as you know our members are on the front lines of power, and have developed a strong trust with their customers by providing safe, reliable and affordable service for over 100 years. The EDA itself provides analysis and networking and advocacy for our members to ensure that the energy policy direction and framework in Ontario is fair and balanced, supporting the financial viability of utilities to deliver service and ensuring affordability for customers. And long term, we are looking to ensure that our local distribution company members can become the premier energy solution providers to their customers, and that they're able to provide the value-added services that customers are already expecting from them but are going to grow with the energy transformation and electrification in the future.

Trevor Freeman 8:09

Yeah, it's kind of like I said, when people think about the electricity sector, they're probably thinking about their distributor. And the EDA is kind of that common voice for those distribution companies. So, you first joined the EDA back in 2009, and have been the president and CEO since 2016. So, we'll look ahead and talk about the future in a minute. But before we do that, tell us about how things have changed so far during your tenure. How are things different from 2009 When you first joined the organization?

Teresa Sarkesian 8:40

Yeah, and you know, this is almost like perfect timing, Trevor, because I've been at the association now for 15 years, I'm just marking my 15-year anniversary. So, feels really apropos to kind of reflect and look back. So, I want to break down my answer into two parts. So, I'm going to talk to you about some, I guess, just my own personal observations about the electricity system at large. And then I'm going to talk more about the changes in distribution. But some of the changes that I thought were really quite significant and profound, sort of when I joined the industry in 2009, I joined at a time when there was the Green Energy Act, and the province was looking to connect all kinds of renewable energy generation to the electricity grid. So that was fairly significant. Another thing that was happening with the province is that they closed down coal fired generation. That was pretty massive. In fact, I think, at the time, it was the largest kind of carbon reduction initiative in North America. And I think even to this date today, I think it still is something that Ontario really has to be proud of. Another thing that you know, at the time, I think that was you know, fairly significant in 2015 is just the expectation of what the demand would be. What was interesting, sort of like the past for 15 years, the demand from customers for electricity was actually flat or declining. And that's all changed. Now. 15 years later, we're, we're now forecasting, massive increases in in demand of energy, which could potentially be doubling in the future. And the other point I'd like to make is just the nuclear renaissance that we're having. I think when I joined the sector in 2009, I'll tell you, I think the public opinion of nuclear was actually quite low. And that's been completely turned around lots of geopolitical events around the world, I think, have driven that. And now that nuclear is having a huge Renaissance. And you're seeing, you know, lots of new investments in nuclear. And we're not talking about shutting down reactors anymore. We're talking about refurbishing and expanding. So those are some of the things that I've observed over the last 15 years that have really changed. And for local distribution companies, I think what I have seen is a growing expectation by both government and the regulators for electric utilities to do more to both support the grid reliability and meet growing expectation from customers. So, I started in the sector in 2009, it was right on the brink of implementation of smart meters, and time of use. And what was interesting is that was mandated, there were very few jurisdictions in the world that actually had mandated smart meters and time of use pricing. So again, Ontario is was one of the first. And so that was a big change for LDCs. To move from, you know, smart meters and having to bring in that technology and also support the technology of time of use. I did mention the Green Energy Act at the time, we suddenly had to connect 1000s and 1000s, of new solar and wind generation, as well. And that was all new. There were no protocols, there were no standards for that. So that was fairly significant as well. And when I kind of fast forward to I guess, more recently, there have been a lot of changes from government, I think they've really supported our industry, they understand the trust that we have, with our customers. And they've implemented, you know, a number of new changes in terms of rate structures, they've asked us to implement ultra low-rate pricing that can support overnight electric vehicle charging. And they've also asked us to introduce a green button digital platform that allows customers to download their energy data and share with third parties for you know, different assessments and tools for lowering energy costs. But it's all not, you know, unicorns and kittens, there's challenges to for our sector, grid resilience was, you know, not really, people talked about it in 2009, but not like they're talking about it now, because of climate change. And we are seeing more frequent storms, causing, you know, obviously, outages for the customer, and also significant damage to the distribution grid. And I know that hydro Ottawa has faced more than its fair share of very destructive storms over the past few years, we have Yes, I can't remember which Victoria Day weekend where we had, I didn't ever know how to say it the derecho or the derecho. So there, we weren't getting storms we've never even heard of before. And unfortunately, I think that is our new normal. So, grid resilience is something that we are very concerned about, and we need to make sure we've got the appropriate investments for that. So those are just a few of the highlights that, you know, when I came into the sector sort of things that were kind of ramping up, and then what's happening now, but I guess what I could say, the commonality is there's constant change in the sector. And what I'm seeing going forward is that change is going to be accelerated.

Trevor Freeman 13:40

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating to listen to you lay it all out like that. Thinking back to 15 years ago, it's hard to even remember, you know, not having smart meters, having meters that really just ticked forward and measured your consumption over the course of a month, and someone would come and read that. And, you know, having declining or even flat demand profiles that aren't increasing is so different from the world that we are in today. But I think what you said there at the end is really important. We are in our industry, an organization that knows about change, we're constantly changing, which helps us as we look forward into your point, we're going to see that level of change and the pace of change accelerate. So, I think that sets us up pretty well. So, let's start to look forward, then I know that the EDA is about to launch a new vision paper. So, we're going to dive into some of the details. But maybe let's start by kind of a high-level summary of what is the vision that you are trying to lay out with this paper?

Teresa Sarkesian 14:42

Okay, and no problem. So, I think what I want to start just give a little bit of background as to why we did this. We've done a couple of vision papers and implementation plans in the past. But you know, they were like seven, eight years ago and things have changed a lot even in Seven or eight years. So, what we've been seeing, obviously, I think the big change over the last few years has been the big focus on meeting Net Zero targets in 2050, that we are going to get to net zero in terms of our greenhouse gas emissions. Not only in Canada, but this is actually a bit of a global commitment, you know, for countries that have signed on to that objective. So, what happens when you set up, you know, those big audacious goals? You have all kinds of organizations and entities looking at how are we going to get there, how much it's going to cost? What do we need to do to get there? And so, when we started reviewing some of these publications, both in Ontario, Canada, and actually in other jurisdictions, they were very good. They talked about what supply mix that we need the investment in transmission, but almost 100% of the papers, Trevor, if you can believe this, just neglected distribution, no one talked about distribution, they didn't talk about how distribution is going to have to change what the investments would be. And then we'll so we said it's going to be critical for us to identify the electric utility role and the energy transition, and how the sector will need to be grid ready to support electrification, economic development, grid resilience, and customer preferences. So, we view that LDCs are going to be pivotal in enabling Ontario's low carbon economy, navigating the challenges posed by climate policies, electrification trends, and these evolving customer demands. And with Ontario's growing economy and the demands for housing intensify, LDCs must innovate to effectively meet these accelerating electricity needs and changing preferences. And right now, we've seen the ISO is predicting significant consumption growth from 144 terawatt hours in 2023, to 240 terawatt hours and 2050 not quite double, but it's getting close. And so, this rapid growth demands urgent attention to adopt new strategies and to ensure that the local distribution companies can make the necessary investments in grid enhancements to expand the capacity and capability of the distribution system. So, while reliability and affordability remain Paramount customers do expect additional value from their utility service. And, you know, we are seeing all sorts of things that are happening, you know, such as the need for swift electric vehicle charging installation, and other upgrades that will increase the electrical load. We see that LDCs are more frequently interacting with businesses that seek utility partners to achieve their energy management, sustainability and ESG goals. And in parallel, the LDC must prepare to respond to increase climate change induced extreme weather events. So, recognizing the essential role of LDCs in the energy transition, we've worked in collaboration with industry experts to outline a vision of the role of utilities, so they can enable economic development, housing growth and electrification. And the report identifies urgent and practical steps that LDCs in partnership with the government, and its agencies must take in the near term to achieve the benefits of this transition. So, what you'll see in the paper is recommendations related to the need for clear policy direction on regulatory frameworks to support LDCs in becoming grid ready, and with a continued focus on affordability and enabling a customer choice and opportunity. And we also discuss issues like workforce needs. And we also emphasize the role of human capital in enabling technological advancements. So that's very high level what it is, and I will get into it a bit more as we have our discussion further.

Trevor Freeman 18:41

Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it of the entire sector is changing at all levels. But what you're really doing is laying out that vision that roadmap for the distributors, in particular, and I think that's great. Maybe like, who is the audience for this paper? Who are you kind of directing this at?

Teresa Sarkesian 18:59

Well, we're still putting the crossing the T's and dotting the I's., but I think it's about 80 pages. So, it's not going to be for everyone, obviously, you know, government decision makers, government, policymakers, people that work in their regulatory agencies and our energy board, the Independent Electricity System Operator, we did try to make it accessible. There is an executive summary that's about two or three pages, which I think will be of great interest to a lot of people to read. And I think it gives a very kind of a high-level overview of what's in the document. So that's something that we're trying to do. And, you know, obviously our LTC members are an audience as well. They've been working with us hand in glove the last few months we've had extensive member meetings we had a board committee that helped steer this paper. But you know, ultimately, the paper is really focused on our customers because its customers and businesses that are driving a lot of this change for the future, whether it's businesses that are on their own journey on environmental, social and governance ESG objectives, and they're looking for more low carbon communities to invest in its customers who are very interested in EV charging, and maybe what the opportunity for the batteries can be to sell that storage back to the grid. It's, it's really the customers that are driving this change.

Trevor Freeman 20:31

Right Yeah, and I mean, the nature of this medium is I don't know who's out there listening. But I'd encourage, you know, all of our listeners, when this comes out, take a look at it and get some insight into kind of how the distributors role is laid out there. So, let's dive into some of the details. You know, you outline obviously, some of the traditional roles and functions of the LDCs. So, from maintaining, owning and maintaining the infrastructure, the poles and wires, and doing customer metering and billing, that stuff's not going away, we're going to keep doing those things. But you also highlight some of these emerging roles that have begun to appear, or that we'll see in the next couple of years, you know, a more of a focus on distributed energy resources, like solar on roofs, for example, that LDCs are going to have to work to both enable as well as integrate into our own systems. It's going to include things like more customer programs, and rate design, etc. I'm curious, you know, how are LDCs going to balance that traditional role that we've already been doing, along with this rapidly new expanding set of roles that we need to tackle?

Teresa Sarkesian 21:38

That's a great question, Trevor. So, look, LDCs will continue, as we always have been to be responsible for safe, reliable and affordable delivery of electricity to customers, customers can count on us to do that 24/7. And even with all these anticipated grid expansions, we're not going to be shut down, if the critic dispatches so, you know, we're experts at multitasking in our sector, and we will continue to do so. And with the increases, as you mentioned, in distributed energy resources, and electrification, there are the pressures for us to adapt, modernize and change how we ensure the safety and reliability in the service to customers. And the emerging roles and responsibilities aren't something that's in the distant future. You know, as I mentioned before, changes the constant, we have been engaging in ongoing adaptation. And so, when I think about the future, and I think about what we call grid modernization, it really is part of the ongoing continuous improvement, and the pursuit of the digital utility of the future, that every utility is on that journey. So, you know, utilities have been bringing in new technologies, particularly related to information technology, communications, and digital solutions. And so, while we're in early stages, we are expecting our members to become more digitally based in the future, they're going to be introducing advanced distribution management systems to monitor the grid. And they're also going to have distributed energy resource management systems to monitor all the connections that are behind the meter. So, I think what is different now than in the past, is simply that the pace of change is being dramatically accelerated. So, for example, it took us about 100 years to get the grid to its current size, yet, we need to almost double the current grid in 25 years. So, we have to move four times as fast. And the grid is not going to be built with just simple poles and wires and one way energy flow like it has been for basically the last 100 years, it's going to be a lot more complex, we're going to see two-way energy flows, so it's not just us sending power to the customer one way, they're potentially going to be selling back their energy generation or their energy storage back onto the grid. So, we need to have that temerity, that two-way, power flow. So that's going to be a big change. And we also expect there to be a lot more customer interaction. They want to leverage their own generation and storage behind the meter. And we as utilities, want to be able to leverage that to help us with you know, reliability, Storm outage, other emergency situations. So, we see there's going to be a greater interactive relationship with customer than simply, you know, maybe sending a bill to them or offering them conservation programs, it's going to be much more dynamic than it has been in the past. And so, you know, over the last two decades, and we talked about this a bit already, the utility has been modernizing the system in response to government policy initiatives, regulatory requirements, and customer preferences. One other example, recently, utilities were required to implement something called green button. And we've been also engaging by bringing them more into the system through net metering. And a lot of our members are also involved in various pilot projects with the Independent Electricity System Operator and with Enercan to look at all kinds of new LTC models and functions. So, and you're going to see a lot of this actually, in our vision paper is that to really be effective, cost effective. To make sure this happens at the accelerated pace, we do need for there to be proactive policy and regulatory changes, to remove barriers and empower LDCs to embrace these new evolving roles in shaping the future of the energy sector. And as I mentioned before, customers are demanding it. And I want to point out a research report that came out by the International Energy Agency just late last year. And they made it very clear that in quite a number of countries around the world, the lack of the regulatory permission to provide more investments in the distribution system is now becoming a significant barrier to new renewable energy projects connecting on the system. And while we don't have that situation here in Ontario, if we don't start moving quickly, in terms of reforming the regulatory context, then we might be like some of these other countries, and we don't want to be that a barrier, you want to be able to enable what our customers want on the grid.

Trevor Freeman 26:07

Yeah, so I'm going to ask you a question about that last point in a minute. But I think your framing of the ways that the sector is going to change, and the way our customers are going to interact with us is going to change is really great. And it's something that you know, often comes up in conversation. And I often say, there is no single strategy or tool here, we can't solve the coming challenges with just more poles and wires. We can't solve it with just new innovative solutions, we need all of those things, we need more poles and wires. But we also need more programming, more innovation, more technology, we need to utilize those distributed energy resources out there on the grid. So, I think that's a great way to frame it. Okay, so let's talk about grid planning a little bit. So LDCs play a really key role in helping forecast the needs of the future, both for our own distribution systems, but also feeding up into those broader provincial needs. So, the insight that we gain from our customers, we pass up to the IESO, for example, so that they can do planning at the provincial level. Traditionally, this is a pretty consistent process. You know, in the past, we get a sense from municipalities and developers, how cities are going to expand and grow. And we've generally been able to count on the typical home using roughly the same amount of electricity as homes that are out there today. So, we account for a certain expansion of commercial customers based on the Intel that we get from those customers. And we know roughly what they're going to use. The problem is that model's kind of being turned on its head a little bit. So, we now need to account for even our existing customers increasing their load because they are electrifying or they want to add EV chargers. And new developments today are likely going to have increased demand compared to some of the historical developments, because we're going to see all electric communities or at the very least more electrified and uses. So I know you don't have a crystal ball yet that tells us exactly how this change is going to happen. But what are LDCs doing to adapt their long-term grid planning to account for this uncertainty?

Teresa Sarkesian 28:22

Yeah, you're so right, Trevor forecasting is getting more challenging. And I just want to start with a little story before I get into my answer about that. So, you know, electric vehicles are kind of the hot thing right now. And you know, although people I think are still on a waiting list for certain cars, there's lots of others that are available. And so, one of the concerns that our sector had was we didn't know where these electric vehicles were going to pop up. And we weren't getting any kind of pre advanced warning when people started making orders or, you know, advanced purchases for electric vehicles. So, we actually did a great advocacy campaign, with the province with both the Ministry of Energy of the Ministry of Transportation, to secure postal code data for utility, so they could see where people were going to be purchasing electric vehicles to help them with their own planning, in terms of, you know, making sure that their local feeders were upgraded their local transformers, and so that just got announced a year ago. But that's obviously not going to be good enough. And that just tells us about electric vehicles, you know, in the near term, but this is I think, you know, having sightlines into our customer behavior, whether we do that proactively with you know, consultations and communications with customers, or we can do it by you know, pinging the meter, or getting data such as postal codes. We are going to have to, you know, adapt and have greater visibility and sightlines into the customer. And so this is that some of that technology that I was talking about earlier, the sophisticated future grid is going to need lots of visibility and transparency, for usage and investment to be able to, you know, look at these two way power flows, look at how customers are behaving, in order to better plan the system, we also need to maximize and optimize the data that we have, you know, from our planners, it's going to be vital to protecting the grid reliability and resilience, we're going to have to have more partnerships with municipalities, in terms of their energy planning for the future and things that they want for their community. And, you know, one of the things that we're asking for on our paper is actually to, you know, rethink the distribution system plan, that the utilities have to file with the OMB every five years, and start building in a, you know, Grid Modernization plan within that broader plan. So, we can get the regulator to start looking ahead and seeing what these requests are, it'll be important to also have various performance metrics and filing guidelines for grid modification from the energy board. So, you know, these are some of the things I think that the membership is going to have to look at but it is going to be a very iterative experience, because it's just it's the pace of change is the big unknown. And so, everyone talks about these things. But you know, I saw something today, I think it was from Ford Motor Company, and they're kind of slowing down, it's taken them a while to retool their plants. So that could take an extra two years now for them to be up and running and producing electric vehicles. So, there's going to be all these other pieces of the puzzle that are constantly going to be changing a moving and evolving. It is I think, planning for the future is going to be very challenging. And I do expect the province to start talking about this higher level, maybe starting at the end of this year, they just came off a massive exercise related to the energy transition electrification panel. And I do expect to see more guidance from the province as well, in terms of how they're going to manage this planet, because it's not just planning for us. It's planning for everybody else in the system, too.

Trevor Freeman 32:02

Yeah. And for listeners out there, if you haven't had a look at that energy transition electrification panel reports, a really fascinating read. So, I'd encourage you to take a look at it. You mentioned a lot of interesting things there. So, for our listeners, and I'll probably do a future episode on this so I won't get into detail, but LDCs typically have to file five-year rate applications once every five years that really lay out their plans for those five years and how they're going to fund them. So coincidentally, hydro Ottawa was getting ready to do our next one. And like I said, I'll probably talk about that on a future episode. But one thing we did when it comes to forecasting is, we conducted a electrification study that looks at if we electrify by 2050, like our plans, say we will and you know, society wise, what does that mean for the grid? And some of the inputs we took is, you know, what are the federal plans for electrification? What are our own municipal plans for electrification? What are we hearing from our customers, and that really, is helping us modify and change how we do grid forecasting, based on some of the changes that we're seeing from our customers. So I think this is a really important piece that, like you said, we're going to need to iterate on we're not going to get it right the first time. But we're starting to think of how do we need to change the way we do things in order to keep up with what our customers are doing.

Teresa Sarkesian 33:28

I think one thing I've seen more of the last few years, because this is much more complex than it's been in the past that I've seen, like the IESO, for example, they've done more, you know, scenario setting. So, when they've had their, you know, their APO's and AER safe, they sort of had other two or three scenarios, and they're constantly updating their numbers every year. So, these are other changes that we're starting to see. And even myself, I was just looking at the provincial budget detail the other day, they also set out, you know, scenarios as well. They're just not picking Oh, it's going to be, you know, X amount of deficit. And you know in 2028 they're actually forecasting out different scenarios. So, I think that's another piece I see more in play, that people will, you know, showcase what assumptions they have, and will have maybe two or three different scenarios as well.

Trevor Freeman 34:21

Yeah, and I think it's a, it's a great way to tackle that unknown component to where we've never really been through a change like this before. We've never wholesale changed the way we use energy in our society. So, there's a degree of uncertainty, obviously, and I think, targeting out that kind of, let's call it high, medium, low scenario, or whatever the metric might be, is going to be really critical for us to make sure we're staying within the boundaries of what's possible and what's probable and refining that constantly as we move forward. So that's a great point. Something else you mentioned a little bit ago, that's, you know, could be a bit of a nebulous term is grid modernization now I've actually got a future episode, and specifically about grid modernization and what hydro Ottawa is doing, I think it might actually be our next one. So, we don't need to go into all the details on this. But let's just help our listeners understand what do we mean when we're talking about grid modernization? And why is this important? Why is it important to our customers that we do this kind of back-office improvement?

Teresa Sarkesian 35:23

So, I'm going to keep it really simple, because I know you're going to do a deep dive on it and a future episode. But essentially, Grid Modernization are improvements that LDCs will make simply to augment our capabilities, and enable us to offer new or improved services to customers. So back-office improvements might look like things like real time sensing, and monitoring systems to improve efficiency and reliability. Or we may be investing in new digital infrastructure communication systems to improve safety, cybersecurity, it can also include more visible improvements to safeguard our infrastructure against extreme weather, and climate change to reduce outages. And like one, I guess, example that some of your customers might already be recognizing, you know, we made investments in green button, which enables customers to download their data, send it to a third party if they want to save on customer use. So, it really is the whole soup to nuts, it really is not just one type of technology or solution. It is a combination of a whole series of things that the that the utility will need to do. And I think why we want to do it, I think when we look at all of the pressures on the system, from NetZero objectives to housing priorities, you know, to accelerate broadband development, and support electrification, the pressures seem to be never ending. And the only way that we can respond to all those pressures, is to be grid ready. And, you know, like I said, it's it is a form of continuous improvement. It's just that now it's the pace accelerated pace is such so extraordinary, that we need to have a more dedicated plan. But most importantly, we have to make sure we have dedicated attention by policymakers and regulatory decision makers as well. Because right now, there isn't that dedicated attention to this very important task. Yeah,

Trevor Freeman 37:28

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great that you bring up all these pressures that we're feeling that it's I think it's time we kind of talk about that elephant in the room, our customers often ask us about affordability, or we're hearing from our customers about affordability, I was actually at a customer event not too long ago, and talking about the change that we're going to see here talking about some of this, you know, large scale transition of our energy sector. These are not small investments that we have to make. We're talking about both an increase of our infrastructure, you know, you mentioned almost doubling the capacity of the grid. We're talking about modernizing our grid systems, that's a lot of back-office work with new technology, and bringing on new programs. Like this is a big change. Energy affordability is already a kind of a challenge today for some folks. So, as we get into this new investment that we have to make as we start moving down the path of the energy transition, how do we balance affordability, especially for our vulnerable populations, with the level of investment that we know is necessary to do the things that we have to do? Yes,

Teresa Sarkesian 38:42

Yes, that's the multibillion-dollar question, Trevor. And it's something I'm going to carve out my response, because there's some things that we've put into our vision paper for the future, because affordability is absolutely critical. And as you know, this is basically a massive restructuring of the economy going forward. So, there's may be other participants who might be playing a funding role. So, you know, right now, obviously, you know, customers aren't monolithic, and you know, residential customers who are struggling to pay bills. Do you have some programs that they can, that they can access, they have the low income Energy Assistance Program, they have the Ontario electricity support program. Some of those are funded by the tax base, some are funded by other electricity customers. The province also gives a rebate to customers in Ontario, and that's a pretty big rebate. I don't think a lot of residential customers are aware of it but it is over 7 billion annually to residential small business customers. That's a lot of money. But I don't know if customers really appreciate that. So, I don't know what's going to be available going forward. These are some of the challenges that you know policy makers, you know, have to address as well. So, when we were thinking about this as part of our paper, we sort of looked at it from a number of perspectives. So, the federal government has set up all these Net Zero targets, they've set out, you know, targets for electric vehicle manufacturing, as well. And so, it might be appropriate for them to share part of the burden with this massive energy transformation. And it's interesting, we actually pulled customers about 2000 Customers two years ago, we asked them a whole series of questions about the changes going forward. And customers do have different perspectives about who should be paying for some of this energy transition. So, when we asked them about who should be paying for electric vehicle, charging infrastructure, and they said, Oh, electricity, customers should pay for that, because that's something that everyone's going to benefit from. When we ask them about, you know, who should be paying for the electricity grid, to address climate change and hit Net Zero targets, they actually the majority, 58% said, the taxpayer should be paying for that. So, I think that's just a very interesting data point. But it's something that, you know, we've been active on in terms of having those conversations with the federal government, saying that, you know, you have offered different subsidies to attract different companies to invest in Ontario, based on our clean grid, but we need to have the whole grid support it. So, you know, we're pursuing federal government support, we also are looking at increased maybe private equity engagement in in our sector. So right now, we have a couple of private members, but there's not a lot of private equity money in the sector, most of our members are municipally owned, and municipalities can't invest in their utility, probably even if they wanted to, because they're in short supply of funds as well, they have their own taxpayer that they have to deal with. So, one of the solutions we are putting forward to government is to increase the private equity threshold, so it doesn't trigger additional taxes, right now, it's only 10% ownership. But we're saying that maybe a tool in the toolbox should be up to 49% ownership. So, it would allow private equity to come the patient capital, they're not maybe looking to seek a return right away. So, there's some you know, flexibility there as well. Another thing we're looking at is to revisit the debt equity ratios of utilities to manage the costs over the long term. So, you'd be effectively amortizing on some of those grid investments as well. So, these are some of the ideas that we have around how we can basically fund the energy transition going forward. You know, and some people say, Well, if you could get customers to think about their energy usage holistically, so if they're going to be, you know, moving away from a, you know, a combustion engine car, and they're going to be using heat pumps, instead of, you know, natural gas heating in their home, if you could get people to think holistically what they're saving on the kind of, you know, GHG side of things, versus what they are going to be spending on electricity, they may actually be spending less if they look at it holistically, but I don't really know, to be honest with you, so that I'd rather focus on the things that we could ask government for, as opposed to asking customers to be, you know, thinking more holistically at their entire energy usage, which is just not how they think. And I think, to change that behavior, would be quite a monumental task going forward. But those are some of the things that we think about, because we are very concerned about the affordability going forward, because it is such a massive change that we're all experiencing.

Trevor Freeman 43:50

Yeah, I think this is another example of there is no single solution here. There is no you know, silver bullet that's going to help us pay for all of this, we need all the tools on the table here, we need to look at all different options. And I think you outlined a couple of them, you know, in what you said about our customers impression of some of this change and who should pay for it. Last episode, I talked to David Coletto, from Abacus data, and he was saying on the whole Canadians really believe that an electrified energy system, we know once we make that transition, we will be more secure, it will be more affordable. And I think those customers who have made some transition in their lives can see the benefit of that. But sometimes the initial hurdle is pretty hard to get over that upfront capital cost. And so, looking for ways, both at the customer level as well as at the utility level, the LDC level I think is going to be important to help get over that initial capital outlay that's required, so that we can realize those benefits that we all know where they are that we know we'll see. So. Yeah, great filling some of those out. So, I know I mentioned that I will get back to this. But I do want to talk to you about the advocacy role that the EDA plays. So, you mentioned, you know, talking to governments and Ontario, the provincial governments across Canada, the provincial government has jurisdiction over most energy matters. So, advocacy to the government is a key role that you play. I'm curious, what are you asking the government to do or to provide to help some of these changes that we're talking about happen? What is the advocacy that you're pushing for with the government?

Teresa Sarkesian 45:32

So, I'm going to try to keep it really simple and just sort of, you know, tie it back to our vision paper for now, because at any given time, I'm working on 20 or 30 l policy issues, primarily with the Ontario government. But this past year, we have expanded our work to also include the federal government, because they have investment tax credits that we are interested in for our members to see if they could be eligible for those. We're interested in them changing things to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, also to provide new sources of equity there. And we're also pursuing grants, as well, for grid modernization. So provincially, a whole whack of issues. But I'm going to go back to our paper just to give your audience a little bit of a sneak peek on some of the things that we're going to be asking for. So, one of the first things we're going to be asking for is to get a common understanding and definition of grid modernization, and electrification. And this is not really new of an idea, we kind of have copied it from the US, there's a lot of jurisdictions, there where very clear objectives that have been set out in order to justify grid modernization, investments. So, we think that it'd be beneficial for Ontario to do that, because then once you have those objectives in place, it is going to make it a lot easier to be able to prioritize grid modernization capabilities, functionalities, and investments in line with those objectives. You know, and then from there, you know, we're looking at creating a series of foundational investments. So going forward, some of the things that we think are foundational, are things like the distributed energy resource management systems and the advanced metering infrastructure, which is sort of like smart meters 2.0, for lack of a better term, and also the advanced distribution management systems. So, we see those are going to be foundational pieces that all utilities are going to need to be able to help customers interact with the grid, and they're going to be necessary grid investments. So how what we see for those is we would like it to be similar policy direction, like we had for smart meters and green button, where you have government mandated activities. And then those are given, you know, a kind of lower standard of evidence with the Ontario Energy Board to support that capital infrastructure, they're deemed as priorities and ties back to that initial plan, where you set objectives, as long as those objectives can be that then those should get a pass through.

Trevor Freeman 48:12

If I could jump in right there just for our listeners. So what Teresa is describing here is, at the moment when there are unique things that are not part of government mandate, yet every LDC and Ontario, of which there are many 60, something I don't even have the number in front of me but every LDC when it comes time to enact that project has to go through a whole exercise of justifying it proving why it's necessary, saying this is why we want to do it. If there was some commonality across LDCs in the province, we wouldn't have to put as much effort into, you know, the report writing side of it, we could just get down to business and make these changes that we all know across the province are important. So, I think it's helpful for us to understand how that process works.

Teresa Sarkesian 49:00

Yeah, and thank you for interjecting on that, Trevor, because if government wants us to move fast, we can, but we need that certainty. So, you know, we're no different than any even though we're regulated monopolies. We're really no different than any other business that wants to do business in Ontario, you're always looking for certainty and clarity, from legislation from policy from regulation, because the uncertainty is what slows things down. Another recommendation that I'm moving forward with is that we need to move beyond pilot projects. I had a conversation with a consultant who is working with Enercan on this and they want to move beyond I love their term, death by demonstration. We've got a couple of dozen pilot projects currently in the sector, whether they're funded provincially through the IESO or they're funded federally through Natural Resources Canada, and you know, there's some very exciting results that are coming out of those. But some of those pilot projects have been going on for all almost four years, in one case, almost five. And at some point, you need to pull off the band aid said, yes, this is a success, all LDCs would be eligible for funding in this. So, we need to be able to scale it up. Or we just say no, that's not going to work. But being in this constant state of the pilot projects, while it's informative, at some point, someone has to have the courage to say we're moving forward, this is going to be scalable. Another recommendation we have is to create an action plan to develop a comprehensive human resource strategy to address quantity quality, and partnership aspects of the labor force going forward. There's some great work that electricity, Human Resources Canada has done. And, you know, DC 28,000, replacement and new jobs in our sector, by 2050 and that's, the electricity sector at large across Canada. And I did some, I think back of the envelope calculations to try to figure out, okay, some assumptions about distribution. And we're looking at close to 10,000 new positions in the sector, over the next 25 years. Every sector is having challenges, filling current jobs, never mind jobs, that we're not even sure what they are quite yet. So we don't necessarily have the right programs at the universities and colleges or private training institutions to start getting the right people and talent into our organization. And, you know, so we need help for that. And, you know, I am encouraged, I saw a little announcement out of the province yesterday to have more electricians down on the Chatham Kent area, because that's the whole greenhouse industry. And so, I said, Okay, that's exciting. So, people are starting to pay attention, but we need it more than just in one local community, it needs to be province wide. And, you know, like I mentioned before, we need to have more conversations about what the funding models are going to be to fund the energy transition. So, these are some of the issues and recommendations that we're taking forward from our vision paper. But day to day, I guess that's the other thing, I want to mention in terms, the change I've seen, I've never seen us work on so many issues, prepare so many submissions, invest so many staff at various tables and working groups. And we love doing all that work. We love representing our members at every table of discussion possible, but I've never seen so many. And they're not just oh, you're there for a month, and you're done. Some of these they are multi year. So, they have longer legs, because they are far more complex. But you know, we're working every day, you know, for members that way. Very, very proud to represent our sector think it's a fantastic sector. And the fact that they're going to play such a pivotal role in the future makes us only want to work harder to make sure we get the best of everything for our membership.

Trevor Freeman 52:54

Yeah, I know, we echo that at our level, we can certainly see a lot more stakeholdering and engagement happening with all players in the sector, but especially the government as they figure out this energy transition to right, let's not, you know, let's not forget that the government needs to figure out where policy needs to go to lead it, and it's a great role that you're playing to kind of bring the voice of the distributors to the government. Because again, as we've talked about a couple of times, we're really on the front lines, and we're hearing from our customers, and we're seeing what needs to change right at that customer level, in order to enable some of this stuff that's happening so that that conversation between the LDCs and the government I think is really important. So you know, we don't work in a vacuum, I just mentioned a number of stakeholders in our sector. And I highlighted the interconnected nature of our grid at the beginning of our conversation. There are a lot of different players working together to really, at the end goal is bring power to the customer. How do you see the existing model changing or expanding in terms of, you know, the kinds of partnerships that LDCs have moving forward? So you know, you mentioned private equity is being a potential upcoming role. There are things like technology companies that are developing innovative solutions, who, you know, we maybe were a bit more arm's length with in the past. There's a changing nature of our relationship with the customers, you brought up the idea of going from one way power flow to kind of two way back and forth. arrangement. How do you see that partnership evolving in the future?

Teresa Sarkesian 54:30

Well, I think the good news is, there's a very strong foundation knowledge to build on. So, I'm going to talk about three different areas. I'm going to talk about sort of shared services across utilities, and I'll talk about a partnership with the private industry. And I'd like to talk about the engagement with customers as well. So firstly, there's lots of shared services going around in the industry already. There are all kinds of partnerships that members are trying to reduce costs for customers and find the best solution. So instead of saying, having 60 utilities run, seek out the best solution, you know, you get everyone working collaboratively to find a solution at the best price for customers. So, we've seen a lot, just in my 15 years I've been there you've got in the past, there was, you know, common delivery of conservation programs, members work together on common engineering standards, lots of mutual aid assistance agreements across among utilities, for Storm Recovery. I've seen shared billing services, bulk purchasing products, and shared control room practices and services. And I've seen private sector play a much bigger role in utilities, as well. I've had the privilege to attend some openings, and launches of micro grids, where you have maybe a solar company and an energy storage, battery company, that are part of that group with utility, creating a micro grid for their community to provide maybe warming and cooling charging services when there's a major outage, for example. And I've seen now, some smart grids, you know, one that's already been implemented up in the north that has a significant private sector partner. And I've seen it also there's a new one, that's another one in the north, that's going to be developed with a private sector partner. And I've seen, not just Ontario businesses, I've seen what businesses come in one of our members is doing a distribution system operator pilot model with a partner in from Norway. So, I'm really encouraged, I think the foundation is already there to kind of build on all those successes we already have, and do more, you know, and we talked about the customers going forward as well, that they're going to be to help playing a role, or we hope they're going to be playing a role. Because there's a lot of energy, battery storage and solar generation, sort of behind the meter, whether it's a farm, or it's a residential customer, or it's a big industrial customer. And so, we want to be able to optimize all of those resources into the system to be of benefit to all customers to reduce costs. But we'd have to give an incentive to those customers to participate, no one is going to let you know a utility access their, you know, solar panel generation or their battery storage, unless they're going to be getting paid to do so. And I think that's going to be really important going forward, because we don't want to over build the grid, I mean, the grid is going to be so big, going forward. And we have to find ways to avoid over building it. Because we don't want to be in a situation where you know, customers are having to pay too much for a grid that's not properly optimized. So trying to find solutions behind the meter, that will maybe either avoid or delay bigger generation investments or transmission investments, or even actually distribution investments, we want to optimize that. But right now, there's not really a lot of permission to do that. So we need to get that legislative and regulatory permission to do that, to turn those, you know, more passive customers into prosumers, that they're basically your their proactive customers by selling their energy storage back to the grid. So I'm really optimistic. I think we've got a great foundation work to do on the customer peace, letting them participate as prosumers and the system, but I'm pretty optimistic that that we can get that job done.

Trevor Freeman 58:27

Yeah, I think it really highlights, there's a lot to be excited about when it comes to the change, that's going to happen. There's a lot of opportunity out there both for the LDCs, for the other stakeholders for our customers, that this energy transition, this change is going to bring about, you know, there's some challenges to I know, he talked about the challenges. I wonder, though, what do you see, as you know, one of the single biggest are a series of risks to achieving the vision that you've outlined in the paper, how could this go off the rails and not happen the way we need it to happen?

Teresa Sarkesian 59:03

Well, I always like to be glass half full as opposed to half empty, but you're taking me down that road? Trevor? So I'm going to answer that question.

Trevor Freeman 59:11

It's my job.

Teresa Sarkesian 59:11

So you know, obviously, our vision for the future role is big, but it's practical. The energy transition is upon us now. It's not something to contemplate for the future. So we think that the biggest risk is effectively inaction or kind of, you know, kicking the issue down the road, 510 years. We're seeing this right, nearby jurisdictions in the US are taking action. There's been significant funding out of the Biden administration, for all kinds of initiatives from you know, cybersecurity, to grid modernization down there. They're doing they're very competitive. They want to attract businesses, to the US. And so, you know, that's a major competition for Ontario. So if we don't seize the opportunities to kind of start working on these important issues now, we could lose economic development opportunities, we could lose jobs, we could lose investment, we could lose our talent as well, that may want to move to another jurisdiction. So to mitigate that risk, the LDCs, and policymakers have to work together on developing a shared vision around electrification and grid modernization, develop a plan of action and create a realistic timeline to turn that vision into reality.

Trevor Freeman 1:00:26

Yeah, it's a it's a great point. And I think it's important for people to understand that change is happening, the change is going to happen, whether we want it to or not. And, you know, often sometimes people say, Are we are we really going to see this change? I think we're already seeing it, we're already seeing customers want to change the way they interact with energy. The risk here is if we don't react quick enough or properly enough, the costs of that change becomes higher the reliability of the grid that we're working with, goes down, that general customer experience is not where it needs to be. And then you've highlighted some other ones, you know, we can really struggle with talent if we're not offering them the kind of cool innovative roles that they're looking for. But the neighboring jurisdiction is, so it's not so much that the change may or may not happen, it's how do we react to it in a way that really serves all of our stakeholder the best. So, Teresa, this has been a really great conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and chat with us today. I think there's a number of things that we talked about today that really set up future conversations I'm going to have nicely. So thanks for the half for teeing that up. And this is your second time on the show. No doubt, there'll be a third time because I think there's a lot more that down the road, we can we can pick apart. So thanks for that. We typically end our interviews here with some common questions to all our guests. So to start off, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:01:56

So one I recently enjoyed it's by a friend too. By Darrell Bricker, he wrote Empty Planet, and that is very, very good talks about actually declining global population. And what that means from everything from, you know, businesses to climate change to pension plans. So it's a fascinating read. People have time for it.

Trevor Freeman 1:02:19

Yeah, very cool. I'll check that out. So kind of the same question. What's a movie or a show that you'd recommend to everybody?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:02:24

I watched one a few months ago was a Netflix series called the Blue Zone. And it was an investigation on people who had made it to 100 I think they called Central Jamarion’s I can't remember the name. But basically, they interviewed all these people living around the world about what it takes to get to be 100. So I really enjoyed it. It was just, it was just very beautifully done. And the people they talked to, I found fascinating and so interesting. So I really enjoyed it.

Trevor Freeman 1:02:52

Yeah, I also watched that one that was really great. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:00

Well, I couldn't pick just one place, Trevor. So maybe I could like, have like around the world trip. But Sydney and Tokyo are places I really want to go to

Trevor Freeman 1:03:09

Have you been there before?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:11

No, no, but I think they look like places. Totally,

Trevor Freeman 1:03:16

Totally. Who is someone that you admire?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:18

for years it has been Terry Fox, great. My kids are in a big, I don't want to say Terry Fox phase, but they obviously they learn about Terry Fox a lot at school. And so they often will come home talking about Terry Fox, and we've got a little book that we read about, you know, the story.

That's fantastic that he really is an exemplary Canadian. And if he can only know today, what he has achieved, you know, even though his it wasn't able to make his run across the country, because unfortunately, he passed I think he'd be blown away by the fact that people have kept the memory going. And you even talking about your kids, you know, obviously doing things to support his memory, and his initiatives. And he's just extraordinary to me.

Trevor Freeman 1:04:04

Now, there's definitely a lesson there. And we don't always know the impact that we are having. And we may never know the impact that we're having. long as we're kind of aiming at the right things. Good things will happen. So finally, to wrap it all up, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?

Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:23

Firstly, excited about everything. But if I had to sort of pick one, I am very excited about the potential for customers to be pro sellers and engage with the with the energy system. I think that could be absolutely transformative going forward. So I'm excited. And I hope to see that before I retire, that's for sure.

Trevor Freeman 1:04:45

For sure. I mean, I think there's no question. We're going to see lots of change, as we've talked about a lot today. And I'm excited about that, too. So that's great. Teresa, thank you again for coming on the show. I really appreciate it and it's been great chatting.

Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:57

Likewise, thanks so much, Trevor. Really enjoyed Our time together.

Trevor Freeman 1:05:00

Right Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of he thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenerg@hydroottawa.com

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Decarbonization, the energy transition, and combating the climate crisis are critical to the future of Canadians (and the planet). But we all have different priorities and opinions. In episode 134 of thinkenergy, David Coletto, founder and CEO of Abacus Data, unpacks some of the key issues Canadians face today. Abacus Data is a Canadian market and public opinion research agency, delivering insights to guide policy decisions, messaging, and how to foster collective dialogue about pressing challenges.

Related links

• Abacus Data: https://abacusdata.ca/
• David Coletto on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%93%8A-david-coletto-%F0%9F%8C%8E-b44a8622/
• David Coletto on X: https://twitter.com/DavidColetto
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Hi, welcome to thinkenergy podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hey, everyone, welcome back. On this show, we often hear from energy experts, whether that's talking about a specific technology or up and coming solutions, or speaking with people that represent organizations who are playing a key role in the energy space. And while that's great, and we could obviously learn a lot from that. It's also important that as we're having those conversations we're doing so with a good understanding of the context around us. By now, I hope we are all very familiar with the concept of knowledge bubbles, because I'm passionate about decarbonisation about the energy transition. And especially because I work in the energy sector. I speak to and hear from a lot of like minded individuals, we share common drivers and use a lot of the same factors to make our decisions. For example, when my own personal heating system, you know, a standard gas furnace was nearing the end of its life about four years ago, switching to a less carbon intensive option was really important to me, and that factored heavily in my decision. Even when my furnace ended up dying in the middle of January, before I had a chance to do all my research and forcing me to make a really quick decision. But I know that not everyone thinks that way. And nor do they have the luxury to think that way. For most folks getting something affordable and quick that provides heat and as easy to use is the most important thing. fuel sources low on the list. And my first appearance on the show when our previous house, Dan asked me why I was interested in taking over his hosting duties. I noted that while I was encouraged that there does seem to be a general consensus around climate change being a real thing. Finally, at least for the majority of Canadians, we as a society are far from aligned on the exact strategies and tools that we need to deploy in order to do something about it. You know, nor is climate change, the only thing going on in the lives of everyday Canadians. There's an affordability problem, there's a housing crisis, we're worried about having an effective health care system. And seeing parts of that, you know, not work so well. The list of things that matter to Canadians is long. And we as a society are not homogeneous in our thinking. So that is why I think today's conversation is really important. David Coletto, holds a PhD in Political Science from the University of Calgary, and is the founder and chair and CEO of abacus data, a Canadian market and public opinion research agency. So David and Abacus have really made it their mission to help all of us better understand what Canadians are thinking and feeling about kind of everything. It's this insight that helps drive policy decisions, messaging, and ultimately how we can best have a collective conversation about our path forward. David, welcome to the show.

David Coletto 03:28

Hey, Trevor, thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Trevor Freeman 03:30

Great. Let's start with the basics. You've described yourself as infinitely curious, passionate and eternally optimistic? First of all, that's a pretty fantastic start to a bio. But help me fill in the blanks here. How did you come to start abacus? How do you maintain that curiosity, passion and optimism?

David Coletto 03:48

So yeah, everyone asked this question like, when did you want to become a pollster? Like, was this something you always wanted to do? And it's funny because it is, I don't know the exact moment. I don't think there was like a light bulb that said, I want to do this. But I think over the course of high school, and then, you know, as I thought about what I wanted to do, after high school, I was really always interested in two things. One is politics. And then two was stats, I was that kid who like, I'm aging myself here a little bit, but I would be no, my parent, my parents, I grew up in Toronto would get the Toronto Star and I would, you know, every morning, open and up during the baseball season and look at the box scores and just be like devouring stats around baseball. And so I think as a pollster, I started in politics and an interest in politics. And, you know, a lot of what I do, looking at the political world, is basically the box scores for politics, you know, who's up who's down how Canadians feel about those political leaders. But that expanded beyond that, over the last 20 years, and I've come to just be someone who's just really interested in and curious about why people do what they do. Why do they think what they think? And I have this amazing job where I get to ask 1000s of Canadians hundreds of questions every week, from anything from politics, all the way to how they feel about work, how they make decisions, on, you know, where they eat out for dinner to stupid stuff that, you know, feels a little fluffy and not that important around, you know, what are they going to do on Valentine's Day? And that, I think, is what keeps me motivated. The optimist in me, I don't know where that comes from. I don't know if it's part genetic art, just, you know, outlook. But I'm always somebody that sometimes drives my team crazy, who will take a situation that's not always positive and say, okay, but what's the upside? And how do we? How do we get over that? And I think as somebody who is, especially over the last number of years, who has been kind of seeing people's reaction to the world around them in a very negative way, I think you almost have to be an optimist to be able to do that. Because it's been a really tough time. And most people's responses to questions these days are negative when it comes to pretty much everything that's going on in the world.

Trevor Freeman 06:15

That transition, I guess, or that following from politics to other issues. I'm curious how that is guided for you and for your organization? Do you follow where the conversations are going? Or do you have a bit of a strategy of, you know, we want to, we want to test this theory, or we want to test this hypothesis, talk us through how you decide what information you're going after?

David Coletto 06:36

I think we're always interested in just helping our clients. Anyone who is consuming our content was interested in why the world works, the way it does, is providing some insight into it. Right? Again, I think we have this, this really unique opportunity as a market research company to tell Canadians what other Canadians are thinking. And I think by understanding each other, I believe, we can find a way to get to whatever goal we want. For some, it's about putting yourself like research puts yourself into other people's shoes for a moment and understanding the world from their perspective, the perceptions that they have, which I think are so important to understanding why they do or think anything else. And being able to pinpoint the thing, or the perspective that comes to shape how other people see things. And so that's what I'm really fascinated by, like digging deeper, and trying to get at the why is the most fascinating and interesting part of my job. And the polls, you know, we always say we started, I started my career, looking at things from a political angle. But politics is only a very tiny portion of the things that we do. And I always like to remind, you know, every audience, whether it's a CEO, who is much more focused on like their profit and loss sheets and try to increase the revenue to the political leaders that I have the privilege of talking to, from time to time, is that every person, I think has three cells, they're at once a consumer, they're at once, especially if they're in the in the labor market, a worker but even if they're retired, or haven't yet entered that labor market, what the work that they did, is still important to who they are, or the work they want to do is important to who they are. And then lastly, they're also voters, or they can be voters. And so those three are interconnected. And that's why I think it's really valuable to see them as those three things and understanding how their views on politics informs the choices they make as consumers and and then how they are able to behave as consumers may also influence the choices they make for where they work, or the demand they have from their workplace, and and the political world as well.

Trevor Freeman 08:59

Yeah, totally. I think that's a great lens to put on things not just for you in the kind of let's call it data business, not for those in the sort of political business or political world, if you will, you know, we think about that and the energy side of things, obviously, our lens is through energy and how what people are doing with it and using it and the decisions are making, but that's not how people look at the decisions in their lives. They don't look at it through that lens. So being able to step outside your bubble, as I kind of mentioned, is really helpful and I think could help all of us no matter the sector we're in so great way to frame that.

David Coletto 09:33

Yeah, and I'm often that like, spark or stimulus that like a leader would bring in to a team and say, okay, David, give us the broad perspective on things because so often, when you like Trevor get to spend most of your time thinking about energy and, and and the policy and how do you deliver it and then all the shifts that might be happening, you're very much an expert, and you develop an expertise, but I am not really an expert. Hi kind of a mini expert on everything, but also bring this really broad perspective that I can, I can tie things together to say the other reason why people are resistant to buying, for example, if I'm an electric vehicle, it's not because they're fundamentally opposed to an energy transition, it's because they're just worried that they're not gonna able to charge it. So if the infrastructure is not there, how do we expect them to be comfortable doing that, or, you know, if you're talking to Albertans, who are the most resistant to moving away from oil and gas and embracing kind of an electrification of the world fundamental because most of their livelihoods are based on an industry that requires extracting oil from the ground and processing it? So when you start to understand the why, like, why do people get to these perspectives, or ultimately, their behaviors, it's often tied to something a little bit deeper. And that gives you, I think, a way to then figure out how to talk to them? How do you persuade them? And how do you most importantly, I think, relate to them? Totally.

Trevor Freeman 10:55

So on that note, you know, data, what you guys are doing, it's useful for decision making, it's useful for informing policy. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, where's that line between pushing a narrative versus understanding what narrative is out there? You know, obviously, you're hired to go get data to help inform different organizations or political entities making their decisions? Is there a line there between getting data and pushing data or pushing a narrative?

David Coletto 11:26

Yeah, I'm often, you know, either often criticized, if anything, because people believe that the polls that we put out in the public domain, for example, are actually influencing public opinion itself. And the evidence of that is minimal. I mean, I don't think there's millions of Canadians who could name abacus data? Or know what the heck we do? Or, or, or have you ever read one of our polls, but I don't, you know, deny that that research at any level of an organization or in the broader kind of conversation we have about society doesn't have an influence. And so when I say like, my vision for abacus is to be the most sought after influential polling firm in Canada. And what I mean by influential is not that we are at ourselves, influencing the direction of policy, but that we're that the quality of our research, and the insights we derive from that research, influences decisions in a positive way. Like, my fundamental goal is to help leaders make better decisions. And I think if your decisions are data driven, if they're evidence based, if they're rooted in understanding your audience, then you can make better, more confident decisions. And so that's what I mean, when I'd say I want to be influential, I don't care. You know, if everybody in the entire country knows who I am, and they want to hear what I have to say, my opinion matters very little. Now, my opinion about what I think the research I do matters, I think is useful. And every researcher brings a unique perspective to the research they do. And I like, I admit, I've got biases, I view the world a certain way. I'm an optimist. And so I'm constantly trying to find the upside of a lot of the stuff that we look at. But I don't believe that, you know, for research to be effective, it's not just, you know, let's go do a bunch of research and write it down on a piece of paper, and it was handed out. I think, and I think where Abacus has been really successful, is that being seen as an effective communicator of what that research means? And helping organizations leaders that whoever action it, do something with it that helps achieve their goals?

Trevor Freeman 13:43

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so obviously, one of the reasons I want you on here is to talk about energy, climate change, decarbonisation, et cetera. Before we dive too deep into some of the specific research you've done, let's talk kind of high level about some of the evolving trends that you may have seen over the last number of years when it comes to Canadians perspectives on those items, you know, help us understand where we've been going these last couple of years and where we are today?

David Coletto 14:12

Well, I think let's start with a step back and look at the broad kind of mindset that I think is important to understand then how people's views of these issues evolve over time. I think we have seen over the course of five years, a rapid shift in the mindset of the general public that has been informed and influenced by a whole ton of external events. Right. So pre pandemic, I think headed, you know, the end of 2019 going into 2020, the public in Canada, Ontario, and Ottawa was very much and I think I'm cautiously optimistic kind of friend, right? Things were okay. The economy was doing okay. Interest rates were very low relative to where they are today. And then the pandemic happened and you had this immediate flip in the mindset to one where most people at least in those first four months of the pandemic, the mindset was fear, didn't know what this meant, we were told to stay home, we didn't know how bad it was going to get, or whether we were gonna get infected, and what it meant for our family, our jobs, you name it. Soon after that, though, I think it became clear that okay, we can control it, we know a little bit more about this virus. And we entered into a kind of a roller coaster of fear and relief, fear and relief, as those case numbers went up and down. Coming out of the pandemic, though, and I think the defining mindset up today, which is really important to understand, to then understand why people will be resistant to certain public policy choices on climate or may not be ready to fully embrace the transition is that most Canadians right now, and I say most, I mean, like 80 to 90% of them, I believe, have a mindset that's very much tied to scarcity. And that is, that is a real shift. And what that means is that a lot of the things that people have come to expect that they can get in their lives are either more expensive, or harder to find or get, or they fear losing what they already have. And those are often tied to issues like housing, the general cost of living and health care. And so that mindset then causes us to view public policy decisions, broader economic forces, and our day to day lives through a very different lens than one where I described as there's plenty of everything, right. And having a good mindset means I can take risks, I can perhaps pay a little bit more, even if the perception is that I pay more, even if it's not true, in order to achieve other kinds of goals. But when I'm the perception of struggling everyday just to get the kind of life I want, or the one in three Canadians who feel like they've completely fallen behind, that is going to make it much harder for me to be persuaded to do things that feel like a big change or feel like they're going to disrupt my life more than it already is. Now, if we expand that, and then we say, okay, so how do we overlay that onto views around the broader issues around climate change, energy transition? I think what's clear in the long term trends is the vast majority, 90 plus percent of Canadians believe climate change is real and is caused by human behavior. overwhelming majorities believe that we, that's actually a crisis that we have to do something about. And in the shorter term, the last I would say, 12 to 18 months as a result of you and me, Trevor, I don't know about you I grew up in, you know, in Ontario, I never once in my entire life, stepped out on a June morning, and saw smoky skies, and you know, take my dog for a walk and bring her home and she smells like smoke. That was never part of my experience. My wife grew up in Alberta, much more likely to happen in Western Canada over time. So I think there's also become a realization that's firmed up that if we don't do something about this, that it's going to have not just theoretical consequences for the earth, but actual implications for my life, I won't be able to do certain things, my health might be compromised, the value of my property might be at risk, I may not be able to ensure, and so that I think has created far more desire or demand to see action. But what's muted it, at least in the short term, is that scarcity mindset where people have basically said, including young people, which is the most fascinating thing is, people often assume younger Canadians are more likely to, you know, say climate change is a priority for the first time in probably ever that I've tracked this, we now have younger Canadians, if you're under 30, you're the least likely to say climate change is one of your top three priorities. Interesting. And that's because other issues, like housing, like economic security, like the cost of living, have overtaken them. And so short term fear of short term scarcity, as at least for now push down fears about the longer term scarcity that climate change will create.

Trevor Freeman 19:07

As we see more of these, in a really defining event, it's interesting, you bring up you know, walking out your door and seeing that weird yellow hue of smoke that we've never experienced before. As we see more of these defining events, does that override that short term, kind of, I don't want to say short term thinking as a pejorative sense, but like override that, you know, looking to tomorrow and remind us that like there's something bigger here happening.

David Coletto 19:34

I think they could. I think every instance of it and you know, what's unfortunate, is that these events, whether they're wildfires or floods or other extreme weather events are now common. And they're happening everywhere and across the country. So from a purely like 'what's going to motivate and mobilize people to change their behavior and demand' action? Yeah, that's there's no doubt those are going to be a stimulant on that kind of behavior and action. But I still, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, depending on what you're asking about, or how you're framing it. These moments are not severe enough that they're, you know, that's not like the pandemic, which affected everybody, could affect everybody and forced us to all change everything about our lives. I don't think climate change has reached anywhere near that moment yet. And the other thing about it, and this is a defining feature of Canada right now, is that it's a politically divisive issue. There's no issue in Canada that divides the political spectrum, if you're on the conservative side, or the Liberals, the NDP side, is the issue of climate change. And it's not to say conservatives don't believe it's happening or don't fundamentally care about it. They're just not, they're just far, far less likely to put it as a priority. And so there's no consensus on what we do about it, what's the best policy choices, and how fast we need to go? And, and so we're still arguing about these things, which means, as a typical average person watching all of this happen, if the people in charge of making these decisions can't agree, well, then maybe it's not time for me to kind of line up and and do something about it, which I think is what part of the problem right now.

Trevor Freeman 21:23

Yeah, I think it's that divide between the number of people a percentage of the population that really firmly believes and sees this as a problem, like you said, and really knows we need to do something about it, compared to the various amps, which are probably evenly split on what that is, what do we do? It's hard to create policy, and it's hard to create ways forward, when we can agree on what we want to do. Something that I found really interesting, and this is going back a bit, I'm curious, in light of what we were just talking about, whether you see this as changed as there is this overwhelming idea that Canadians want to be seen as environmentally conscious, we want to be seen as leaders in that sustainability, renewable energy field. And I'm thinking about the findings you published back in 2020. So three and a half years ago, now, just the early days of the pandemic. And, you know, I can relate to the idea of Canadians wanting to be seen as virtuous leaders, I was, you know, fresh out of university and traveling the world and you want to put that shiny Canadian image forward. Tell us about that idea of how we want to be seen as, as the leaders and doing the right thing. Where does that come from? What drives that in, in our kind of national ethos? Or am I pulling something that's not there?

David Coletto 22:45

Yeah, no, I think it is there. And I think every country, by the way, there's a nationalism, a pride that, whether you were, you know, like, if you and I asked questions like that, in the UK, you know, Brits will want the UK to be seen as progressive on environmental issues are at least, you know, not seen as like, deeply polluting. And I think, part of the psyche of Canadians and I would say Canadians outside of Alberta and Saskatchewan, because I think those two provinces because of their reliance, and how important the oil and gas sector is, to those economies view this issue differently than, say, folks in Ontario, or Quebec, in particular, is that, you know, Canadians often have this like sense of superiority, certainly, compared to our American friends sound South totally. And the environment is one of those issues that we think we are better, or we should be better. And I shouldn't say we are better, but we believe we should be better. And I like that aspiration. Like, I think there's that desire for us, broadly speaking, to do our part, to be seen as leaders on this issue. But, I mean, I think there's limits to that perspective on then, okay, but are we all looking to, you know, change our behavior or, you know, adopt, you know, get rid of our furnace and put in a heat pump or, you know, change our gas powered vehicles to either a hybrid or an EV? No, we know, that's not happening as fast as it could happen. And so, it's one thing to believe it and want it and it's another thing to do it yourself. That being said, I do think from a public policy perspective, that we do want our leaders to be aspirational to, and to be, you know, looking to, to move the needle. But I think this is where your question about life was three and a half years ago, different from today, three and a half years ago, we didn't have the same mindset. So today if I ask people, What would you rather focus, reducing the cost of living making it easier for people to live their life day to day or relentlessly focusing on reducing emissions and moving to cars? I would say maybe two thirds would say, make my life easier first. And then I can get to the other thing. And so I think the more recent times have probably shifted that perception to some extent, but still want us to be leaders. But you know, they will want policymakers to coerce us into changing our behaviors.

Trevor Freeman 25:18

For sure. So with that in mind, with that context, moving a little bit forward in time, you're a little closer to today. Just last fall, September, you released findings that talked about Canadians' interest in energy efficient housing. So let's get a little bit more granular here. Talk about what Canadians feel about their own homes and what they're looking for.

David Coletto 25:40

Yeah, it was really my colleague, Edie Shepherd who did this research. And we were really interested in understanding particularly given all the conversations about housing affordability and the housing crisis. And you know, that some see as a real opportunity for us, as we build millions of new homes over the next number of years, we should probably be focused on making sure that they're as efficient as they can and, and, and help us tackle our need to reduce emissions and the climate crisis. And I would say that most Canadians 60% say that it's important that the home that they buy next is energy efficient. Very few say it's not important, there's a degree of difference, there's probably some we're gonna be like, I want to make sure it is and there'll be some that will likely say I wish it was but maybe if it costs me a few, you know, 10 grand more, I may not be able to afford it, but my intention is to see that it's there. And what's really interesting is when we asked people okay, you know, why would you want it? What are the upsides? Well, there is a perception that a more efficient owner will save the money. There is a broad understanding that it's going to future proof their home from future increases in the cost of energy. And there's the moral imperative that they think it's important to do it so that we can reduce our impact. Now, what are the barriers while they're the same? It's almost like the upside is the affordability. But the barrier is also affordability half who say, Okay, well, what would prevent you from doing it? Say, well, the upfront cost, the perception of the upfront cost is a big barrier to it. The fear that it may require more maintenance, like if you're putting solar panels on your roof, what does that mean? Do I have to maintain it? Is that going to be more costly? And then there's also a concern about just the availability of the actual energy efficient homes in the places that they live. So what it signals, though, to us is there's an intent, I think that almost everybody understands that it would be better if we all could live in a more energy efficient home. But there's these trade offs, these pushes and poles that I think are completely rational and natural for people to have, but are based on a lot of perceptions that may not be actually rooted into reality.

Trevor Freeman 28:03

Yeah. And it's great, great insight. I wonder, how do we take that? Or what impact does that have on decision making about future policy? And so I'm specifically thinking about, like the caning government's greener homes grant, which was a program to provide people with no interest loans, and in some cases, incentives to upgrade their home with clean technology, let's call it that which is oversubscribed, and they ran out of money. Does this inform policy of what comes next? Is it Is there something in there about helping people connect the dots between we'll lower that upfront cost for you, we'll have a program to lower the upfront cost, you get all those same benefits that you care about the affordability side that, you know, moral side of things to talk to us a little bit about how we connect the dots there.

David Coletto 28:52

Well I mean, the fact that was oversubscribed, as a proof that there's demand out there. That people are willing to do these things, if you lower the barriers to allow them to do it. And the cost is a big one. So and that's normal, and it's good public policy to try to incentivize the behavior you want to see and disincentivize the behavior you don't. So like, my advice to policymakers is, if you think this is important, and I'm no expert on what we have to do to achieve our emission targets and to get this issue under control. But home retrofits and increasing the efficiency of our homes, which I believe in what I've read is a big contributor. Right? Both commercial and residential properties are a big contributor to emissions, so if the incentive isn't an effective and efficient way of doing it, then we should continue to do it because it's clear people will do it. We also see for example, if I just take away from housing and residential energy use, and then I just use EVs as another example. And while there's some debate right now over whether EV demand is going to continue. But there's no doubt that provinces that have been more generous with their rebates for people who buy an electric vehicle, have seen a higher uptake in EVs go back to NBC, outright lead the country. And it's not like it's warmer in Quebec than it is in Ontario. There's a policy decision and choice that was made that has changed people's behavior. So I think we, you know, we, especially at a time when people are feeling that pinch and that squeeze, there's, there's benefit. Now, the problem also is, and this is bringing it back to the public policy lens a little bit as governments have been spending a ton of money. And so there's increased pressure on them to reduce their spending and try to manage their budget a little bit better. But, you know, priorities, I guess I'll say, and for many climate changes should be the, if not the most important thing, at least near the top.

Trevor Freeman 30:58

Yeah, and I guess, I mean, part of, we're kind of going back and forth between talking about climate change in the context of everything, and then, you know, dialing into specific things. If you focus in with people on, you know, within this issue of climate change, what's your barrier to getting a heat pump or an EV? And that affordability might be the upfront cost. But then if you zoom out and look at the more macro lens, you know, should the government be spending money on that, in particular, is that the most important thing for the government to spend money on? Maybe the answer changes, maybe, because then you're looking at it in the context of all those other issues that are also important to people.

David Coletto 31:34

Yeah. And just to drill down even further, in that study we did in September, we asked people in Canada, how interested they would be, and a very specific set of changes they could make to their home. Right things like, you know, high levels of insulation, to LED lighting, to even a geothermal heat pump, which I suspect most people don't really understand the science behind, or know how that would even work. But what we learned is that the vast majority of Canadians are at least open minded about making these changes to their home. So they're not like there's no like, deep, except for a small segment of the population's deep ideological or emotional negativity towards a sustainable behavior. It's just how do you get people over the barriers that exist? In them actually doing it. And cost is one simple understanding, accessibility of the service. And obviously, you know, an organization like hydro Ottawa has a role to play, and you do a big, important role in helping you know, consumers in the city. Think about their energy consumption as you try to help us conserve and be more energy efficient.

Trevor Freeman 32:45

Yeah, for sure, I kind of want to pull on that thread a little bit. So as you noted, like, you know, an organization like Hydro Ottawa, we're kind of on the front lines with our customers, we have that one to one relationship with them. Sometimes all that is just a bill in the mail, but they know that we are involved in energy. And, and we take it upon ourselves, we think it's important to help our customers understand energy, help them understand that, you know, part of the sector. We're going about that, and as we're talking about, especially the energy transition, what does your data mean? What can we learn from that in terms of how we engage and in the messages we bring to our customers? And I'm asking specifically thinking about an article you shared, just last week, which talked about whether carbon pricing as a policy is suffering from a failure to properly communicate. So, you know, that's kind of two pieces there, the Hydro Ottawa piece, as well as that, you know, maybe weaving all together for us.

David Coletto 33:47

Yeah, I mean, I could spend an hour talking to you about, you know, public understanding of, you know, science and climate change and carbon pricing, but the short version is, you have to assume that most people have little understanding of how things work. And I often use the analogy of, of a car and let's use an EV because that's on brand for this conversation, but like most people would know how to drive that EV but they have no understanding of how the energy is produced from the battery and it works to like turn the pistons I don't even know if there's distance in an EV. Right, there's probably not there's not that combustion engine, whatever. I don't need to know that. I just need to know how to drive it. Yeah. And so I think that the lesson there is, and the carbon tax or price is a good example of that. I don't believe that the federal government ever did the work it needed to do to explain to people why. And sometimes it's shocking how little people even understand basic principles like supply and demand that if you raise the price of something, people are going to be disincentivized from buying it or you doing that activity because it costs more. In the case of, you know, carbon price, that's the whole incentive activity that produces emissions, we want to make it more expensive, so people do less of it. But I've done focus groups, you know, years ago. But I don't think there's been a renaissance and understanding where people didn't basically understand why we raised the price of, of carbon or an emission like that. But then you've complicated it by giving that money back, which I think is a good goal, because it's really you're trying to signal a price and trying to get those who consume a lot of energy that produces emissions to reduce that as much as they can. That even in our research, most people who received a rebate, didn't know why they received it. And then when we asked them, okay, well, if this program was eliminated, and keep in mind, the fact is, most Canadians do receive at least close to or as much rebate as they would likely spend from the tax or the price. They thought they would still be better off if that just disappeared. Which tells me that that communication, and not assuming that people, you know, all watch the news or spend a lot of their own time actively looking at information. And even if they are, they may not get good information, because there's so much misinformation out there, that organizations actually have to spend a lot more time explaining and communicating. And look, I think one of the simplest and best things that Hydro Ottawa does as a consumer, as a customer of Hydro Ottawa is like when I can log on online, and you're giving me some insight into what is consuming the energy in my home, right? Like, you're like, you likely use your, you know, washing machine and your dishwasher. And, and that allows me at least to understand the implication of that choice. And if I want to reduce my energy consumption, I suspect most people want to do it because I just want to save money, then you're giving me the power through information to do it. So I think there's a lot of value in communication and just public education. It's really hard for me to say, but I think it is proven to be essential in getting people to change behaviors, away from things they've done for most of their lives.

Trevor Freeman 37:21

Yeah, it's great insight, it's something that we are constantly thinking of is, how do we relate this thing that's important and that everybody would agree is important to people's day to day lives, because they don't spend all the time thinking about it, they've got other things on their mind, other things that are important to focus on. So great insight. I want to zoom out one more time quickly here and talk about, you know, data that you published in 2022, about our energy system as a whole. So the federal government has said by 2035, all electricity production in Canada should be emissions free, on the whole Canadians completely agree. So you have data that says eight and 10 80% of Canadians believe a clean energy system would be more affordable and more secure than a fossil fuel system. I was pleasantly surprised to see that. I'll be honest. Tell us a little bit about that. And what else did you find in that study?

David Coletto 38:17

Well, I think this comes off of obviously, the invasion of Ukraine from Russia, which raised a lot of discussion, not just about the affordability of energy, because of how that conflict, you know, spiked natural gas prices and really hit Europe hard. But also a sense of energy or energy security. And so we wanted to understand, do people recognize and understand the risks actually involved, and the opportunities not just from a purely climate lens, but from an affordability security lens? And this is a really important conversation? Because I think it recognizes that not all people come at an issue with the same perspective, right? If you're somebody who doesn't believe that climate change is an absolute priority, well, then you've got to find another way to get them to behave or change their behavior, or at least agree on an outcome that might be for a different reason, but gets us to the same outcome either way. And I think what we learned from this research is that when you ask people, for example, you know, which do you think is more affordable, a clean energy system that would include hydro, wind, solar power and electric vehicles, or a fossil fuel energy system? So think oil, natural gas, coal, gas powered cars. Two of three, say I think that a clean energy system is going to be more affordable and an almost same number 68% Say, I also think it's going to be more secure. And now, that's not a consensus. I think it's getting close to one. There's still a third of people who say no, no, I think kind of those, those legacy fossil fuel driven systems are both more secure and more affordable. But I wish we had asked this question, you know, 10 years ago, but I suspect if I had, you would have probably seen a complete reversal. Right? Yeah, it would have been the opposite. And so we have seen, I think a change in people's perspective and global events have pushed us there. It just tells me that at this base level of people's understanding and belief that they think if we do everything right, these things will be better for me, and better for our country and better for the world. And that we just need to now deliver and execute on that, I think, as both policy and in the day to the lives that people are experiencing.

Trevor Freeman 40:38

Uh huh. So thinking about the change in technology and the changing landscape, we've talked about how the energy system is changing. We've talked about the impact of the pandemic, and the fact that you and I are, you know, sitting having this conversation over video chat, which is not that common, even four or five years ago. How is that progression and technology, changing the way that you gather data and understand where Canadians are at is disrupting your industry? Like it is other industries?

David Coletto 41:10

Yeah, in every way. I am too young to remember the golden years of market research and survey research. But there was a time when you know, and everybody has a phone, but not everybody answers that phone, when you could call households. And most people, almost everybody would pick up the phone. And then of those who picked up the phone, at least half or so would answer your survey. Now, you know, everybody has a phone, but almost nobody picks it up if they don't know who's calling. And that's forced the industry to respond. How people communicate, and how they don't communicate is tied to how then we can reach them and collect information from them. And so what we've seen in market research is almost an entire shift towards online research. I'll spare you the detailed nerd conversation about how we do that. But I would say most 90% of the research Abacus does, for example, is done online in some way. Whether it's recruiting, you know, the general population, when we do a poll of Canadians through a number of different panels that have recruited people, from time to time take surveys, or whether we're doing employee studies, or customer studies, using lists through email, or text messaging. But what's important is, despite all that change, I think our industry has been pretty good at being able to continue to engage people, response rates dropped, it's like people don't want to share their opinions as much as they used to. So that's a problem for us. And the most important thing as a researcher is to ensure that those who can take part in research are not fundamentally different from those who don't. And I don't think we're there yet. But it's something that- if there's anything that keeps me up at night about research, is that right? Is there going to be a moment when you know, Trevor, I don't know if you answer surveys when you're called or whatever. But if you do, and everybody who does shares the same kind of perspectives, socio economic backgrounds, demographics, and the people who don't answer surveys are completely different. And all those, then the surveys won't be representative, they won't represent the populations we're looking to understand. So yeah, technological change is changing everything. And the big, big thing I've been thinking about is what role does AI play in the market research industry? I think there's going to be a lot of benefits in terms of being able to synthesize large amounts of data, you know, being more efficient. But the impact that it has on how we collect information, I don't think is fully understood yet.

Trevor Freeman 43:42

Anything that's really surprised you and in your research, anything that's really jumped out that you've said, holy smokes, that's not what I expected.

David Coletto 43:49

I think it's - not really I am never I'm rarely surprised these days, because I'm, I'm so inundated and constantly kind of looking at data that you almost you're almost anticipate where things are going before they get there, though, what's interesting to me is that people aren't dumb. And then that's not to say that's surprising. Oh, my God, people aren't dumb. But I think sometimes there's an assumption that, you know, most people - I'm not saying most people are dumb, but they aren't paying attention. And there's a lot of people who don't pay attention to a lot of things. But I do think that most people are thinking about how they reconcile all of the things that are going on in the world and in their life. And I think climate change is now part of the conversation that's regularly there. And that to me is going to make it easier for us to achieve that thing you just said right, that that's the first step in getting people to change their behaviors and to embrace change is for them to recognize that a problem exists. And so step one has been there for a while. And I think that's going to accelerate step two, so I didn't answer your question. She does. I am rarely surprised by her about pretty much anything these days. But I am pleasantly surprised by how thoughtful some most people can be about things if you give them the chance to be.

Trevor Freeman 45:20

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that's, I guess, aspirationally I like to think, you know, in my part of Hydro Ottawa, and what we do in engaging with customers, it's keeping that in mind and remembering we are trying to understand things in our customers lens, what matters to them. And like I said earlier. You know, my head is in this it's in, it's going through the lens of energy all the time. And that's not the case for everybody. So keeping in mind that yeah, people are diligent and paying attention and thinking about things that are important to them. And that just may be slightly different from the rest of us. So to kind of wrap it up here, we typically end with a series of questions that we asked most of our guests. So I'm going to fire the match here and see what you think. You're on the receiving end now of data gathering, I guess you can say. What's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?

David Coletto 46:16

Oh, man, I read like eight books at once. And so remembering what I'm reading? Oh, that's a tough question for me.

Trevor Freeman 46:26

But what's a book that you've read in the last month that you think everyone should read down? I'll narrow it down for you?

David Coletto 46:31

I think, okay, it's not in the last month. I'll start by answering that, okay. So a book that I think helps explain so much of the world right now is called Prius or Pickup. It's by two American political scientists. But it's not like a nerdy academic thick book. And it basically argues that there are two primary worldviews, but they are fixed and fluid, and that so much of the political division in the United States, but so much of the consumer behavior we see, is affected by that worldview. So Prius and Pickup are like the choice between vehicles. And it changed my thinking around persuasion about communication, because it basically argues that most people, and I think it's true in Canada as it is in the US, or anywhere else around the world, start a journey with a particular base assumption about the world. And if you understand those assumptions, you then understand how to persuade them.

Trevor Freeman 47:36

Very cool. Is there a movie or a show that you've watched recently that you would recommend everyone take a look at?

David Coletto 47:43

Hmm well, I love Succession. It's been a while since it ended, but if you haven't seen it, it's brilliant TV. It makes you mad. You hate all the characters, but there's something really compelling about the writing. I really love that. And then my guilty pleasure is Curb Your Enthusiasm, which and it's in its final season right now, as we record this.

Trevor Freeman 48:09

Awesome. I can't agree more with both of those. If someone offered you a free round trip, anywhere in the world, where would you go?

David Coletto 48:18

I am a cyclist. And I usually travel with my bike. Road cyclist. So anywhere in the world, I would say, you know, I think because I have never been I would love to go to places like New Zealand or Australia and explore on two wheels, either of those places. And yeah, that's where I go.

Trevor Freeman 48:40

Cool. Who's someone that you admire?

David Coletto 48:43

Oh, man. Good question. Dude, why admire? So many? It's like, what do I - how do I frame this? These are hard questions. If you know what, recently I had someone who's like, actively involved in politics, in terms of like, public opinion, and being part of that conversation. I increasingly admire anybody, anybody, and I'm not going to pay any political support like partisan brushes or political parties, anyone who puts their name forward to run for political office these days. I admire that because it is a thankless and difficult job. And whether it's our Mayor or Premier or Prime Minister, you can disagree on the decisions they're making, you can dislike them as people if you want. But yeah, I think we should admire the fact that they have chosen to do something that is a pretty horrible job.

Trevor Freeman 49:38

Yeah, well said. And finally, is there anything kind of about the energy sector, its future that you're particularly excited about, or really keenly interested in?

David Coletto 49:50

I am an eternal optimist about human ingenuity. I'm not somebody who thinks like the end is coming and it's all going to go to hell. I actually think that we will find, and we have probably found the solutions that are going to help solve this problem. And so what excites me the most I think is, you know, I am excited for the day. I really am when I step on an airplane that is entirely powered by a non emitting fuel of some sort. I don't know when that's going to be, I don't know how long it's going to take. But I think if we achieve that, then I think we will have solved a lot of the other things and I I don't think it's that far away.

Trevor Freeman 50:29

I mean, as your bio says, infinitely curious, passionate and eternally optimistic. I think that that sums it up pretty well. David Colletto, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you coming on. I really appreciate the conversation too, Trevor. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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The energy transition will define the sector for decades. And smart, passionate people are needed across the industry—leaders and innovative thinkers to chart the path forward. In his first episode hosting thinkenergy, Trevor Freeman gives the future workforce a voice, chatting with two engineering interns about what a career in energy means to them. Listen in as Alana Jones from Envari Energy Solutions and Priscilla Lacerda from Hydro Ottawa share their experiences.

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• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
• Envari Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/
• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
• Alana Jones on LinkedIn: n/a
• Priscilla Lacerda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/priscillalacerda/

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Transcript:

Trevor Freeman 00:07

Hi, welcome to thinkenergy podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@ hydroottawa.com. Hi, everyone, this is Trevor Freeman here. This is my first official show without the training wheels. Just as a reminder, your regular host, Dan, is hanging up the lapel mic, actually, it's a big giant microphone - go bigger go home, I guess. And I'm stepping in to try and fill his shoes. The consistent thing though, is that the goal of the show continues to be to explore the fast changing world of energy through conversations with smart people doing cool things. Today on the show, we're going to talk about the energy workforce of the future. So this show is featured a number of conversations about the energy transition, which is arguably already underway. And this massive shift will really be the defining feature of this sector for at least the next couple of decades. Like any other massive project or societal change, in order to do it properly. We need great people. We need smart, passionate people in all areas of the sector to help us move forward into uncharted territory. A career in energy is really an exciting, dynamic pathway and a great way to contribute to meaningful change. But obviously, I'm a little biased, so I wanted to talk to two people who are earlier in their journey. It's great timing for this conversation because March is both National Engineering Month here in Canada, and we've just celebrated International Women's Day. Joining me today are two smart, young engineering interns working in the energy space. Alana Jones has had a number of roles with Hydro Ottawa, and currently works for Envari Energy Solutions, a Hydro Ottawa affiliate. Priscilla Lacerda joined Hydro Ottawa as an intern last year, Alana and Priscilla, welcome to the show.

Alana Jones 02:10

Hi, Trevor. Thanks for having us.

Priscilla Lacerda 02:12

Hi, Trevor. Thank you.

Trevor Freeman 02:14

Alright, let's get started by learning a little bit about you both. Priscilla, why don't we start with you? Could you tell us a little bit about where you went to school and what you studied and really how you ended up working in the energy sector?

Priscilla Lacerda 02:25

Sure. So I'm originally from Brazil and completed my studies there. I have a Bachelor in Electrical Engineering and an MBA Diploma in Business Management. While I was at the university, I tended to work in an affiliated company and spent around six and a half years there. Eventually, I decided to immigrate to Canada. And because I used to work in energy fields in my home country, I researched a lot about Hydro Ottawa and ended up being selected to work as an engineering intern last year.

Trevor Freeman 02:54

That's great. Well, I'm glad that we got you to join us from Brazil. And I think your experience in you know, both in Brazil's energy sector as well as here in Canada is going to be really beneficial both for you and for us. Alana, maybe the same question for you. Tell us a little bit about how you got started in the energy sector.

Alana Jones 03:12

Yeah, so I studied chemical engineering. I come from a large mining community. And that was the initial plan to work as a metallurgical engineer. However, once I graduated, I was a young 20 year old looking for a more exciting city than Sudbury Ontario had to offer. So I relocated to Ottawa. My brother was here, and I've always loved this city. I realized pretty quickly, however, that it was a lot harder to find a role in chemical engineering than it was in Sudbury. So I started working in restaurants and pubs to pay the bills. Plus, it was fun, the money was great. But fast forward five years, and I knew that I needed to actually use my degree and find a career. So I really liked Ottawa, I knew I wanted to stay here. I just didn't really know how to make that happen. So I contemplated Teachers College. And then one day on the radio, I heard about an exciting opportunity. It was a program that Algonquin College was running to get more women into the trades. They were calling on women with engineering science or math degrees to take their fast tracked electrical engineering technologists program. So the perks were wonderful. They offered free laptops, work boots, and what I found most appealing was an opportunity for a Co-Op with a local utility. So I ended up doing my four month Co-Op with Hydro One. And it was a great way to break into the industry and actually see the utility business and how it was run. And that same year I graduated from the program at Algonquin I got hired on as any it with Hydro Ottawa, so I feel like everything just worked out really well.

Trevor Freeman 04:41

Awesome. It's great to hear about the different kinds of unique pathways that people take to get to where they are on them. That's not unique to the energy sector but still interesting to hear. So let's dive a little bit deeper into what you guys do today. Alana will stick with you. Help us understand what it is you do in your role and you know, tie that back to how that relates to your engineering studies?

Alana Jones 05:02

Sure, my current role is with the Envari electrical team. My main focus is electric vehicle infrastructure projects and energy studies for buildings. As you know, there's a massive push for electrification of vehicles. And the government has mandated that all vehicles sold as of 2035 will be electric. So we see huge numbers of people wanting to get a head start on having that infrastructure available to support their future EV needs. We work with government agencies, many car dealerships, condo, apartment buildings, airports, even companies looking to convert their full fleets over. So my role is to perform the initial assessment on a building to determine if they have enough electric capacity to install any EV chargers at all, and what their options are as far as installation size and what that would look like with respect to their building layout. Our team helps provide guidance on the type of charger and system that would be most suitable for their needs. And there really are so many options, whether it's fast charging, or rapid charging, or if they want to allow public use or private so you get into a whole list of options that clients often need guidance on. And sometimes we actually see that buildings don't have enough capacity to support their electric vehicle infrastructure needs. And as one example, if the transformers are too small to support additional power loads, in that case, we can recommend a service upgrade to get them where they need to be for future electrification. Sometimes, that means designing a surface upgrade before charger installation to ensure that the building will have enough power to support the needs. And that means sizing the service accurately as well to reflect the current and projected needs. So these are expensive upgrades we're talking about. And they should last decades to come. The last thing you want to do as an engineer is install something too small, to find out 10 years down the road that the building needs more power, or if you oversize a service, it ends up just costing much more than it needs to. And I guess the last part of my role is the actual implementation of these chargers. So once any service upgrade is done if it's needed, the group can begin managing the installation, so sourcing the chargers and electrical contractor to do the work. And a big part of my role is making sure all parties are kept in the loop and the project remains on time and budget so that it can be as simple as possible for the client.

Trevor Freeman 07:09

Great. Thanks for that. We'll come back to that in a minute. But Priscilla, over to you, kind of the same question. Tell us about what you do specifically and kind of how that relates to your engineering experience.

Priscilla Lacerda 07:21

Yeah, so basically, I prepare and maintain a portfolio of business performance measures for our electricity distribution division. Alongside my supervisor, we identify opportunities to improve internal and external processes, and also analyze financial data. As you are well aware of, as a utility, we are regulated by the Ontario Energy Board. So it's imperative to keep our processes and analysis well documented. And that's the importance of my role and department and how it relates to my engineering studies.

Trevor Freeman 07:51

Great. I mean, those are just two examples that you guys both gave about, you know, the number of different roles within the utility sector. And it's a, you know, a pretty wide range of things that have to happen in order for us to deliver the service that we do and make sure that we're providing value for our customers. So thanks for that. Maybe kind of a follow up question on that. Anything that surprised you so far in your role here at Hydro Ottawa, and Envari, for you, Alana.

Alana Jones 08:20

Um, I would say the most surprising thing I've found is that everyone really wants you to succeed. I've been really, really lucky in my various roles, having managers and supervisors with a ton of experience to be able to coach me and support me in whatever ways they can. Our group at Envari is so diverse in their knowledge and backgrounds. So they offer, each person offers a specific skill set that they're willing to share with everyone. And anytime I need help or support, there's always someone willing to take that time out of their own busy schedule to support me. And I really love that. I mean, sometimes we spend more time with our co-workers than our own families. So I think it's important to have a nice working environment and to feel supported. And I've been lucky enough to have had that experience throughout my career.

Trevor Freeman 09:02

Great. That's awesome to hear. Priscilla, what about you?

Priscilla Lacerda 09:04

To be honest with you, in my specific case, because most of my experience was in my home country, one surprise that I had was that here in Canada, each province regulates its electrical system separately, and has their own model. While in Brazil, all the utilities are nationally regulated by one energy board.

Trevor Freeman 09:22

Yeah, it's certainly a complex landscape that I think, you know, folks outside of the sector don't always appreciate and you know, they don't need to worry about that, because we worry about it, but it is a complex regulatory sector. So Priscilla will stay with you. I'd like to dive a little bit deeper into your role in what you do. You talked about your role in reporting on grid performance. So that's our outage and reliability reporting, as well as financial reporting related to grid operations. Tell us why that's important for a distribution company like Hydro Ottawa.

Priscilla Lacerda 09:55

As I mentioned before, Hydro Ottawa is regulated by the Ontario Energy Board, so it's crucial to maintain a reliable and cost effective grid. Our primary objective as a distribution company is with the customers. As we continually strive to improve performance for our customers, we need to maintain quality data to derive critical business insights and make informed business decisions.

Trevor Freeman 10:18

Great. So following up on that, do you see, you know, smart technology or AI or anything else coming in and, you know, changing the way that we report in the future?

Priscilla Lacerda 10:31

Yes, I see smart technologies and the blockchain is doing proof predictive analysis, and also anticipating potential issues and trends in the grid performance. Also, smart grids enable real time monitoring of various aspects of grid operations. And that's extremely beneficial as it will provide more up to date data.

Trevor Freeman 10:52

Great. Alana, we're gonna jump over to you here and kind of do the same thing, dig a little bit deeper into what your previous answer was. So you mentioned things like EV charging infrastructure for some of our customers that own large buildings. Are you seeing more of our customers look to what we might call, you know, emerging technologies to meet their own needs or the needs of their own customers or building occupants?

Alana Jones 11:15

Yeah, good question. We are seeing many, many people come to us to see what their options are for the implementation of EV chargers. If you are an EV driver looking to buy a condo in the city, having that infrastructure at home to charge is a must. And every year more and more people are driving EVs. So definitely, I would say building owners are looking to the future of electrification of vehicles and accommodating their building occupants. And we also see a huge push from dealerships to get chargers installed, whether they have requirements they need to meet, or whether they want to be the ones to get their hands on the latest EV models first. They are really interested in having that infrastructure already in place to accommodate current and future needs for it. There's also a goal, I think, not to be behind the eight ball when the time comes. And when everyone is rushing to get it done. So 2035 isn't that far away. And year after year, the increase in EV sales jumps, so getting your establishment ready for that, I think, is a must. And the last bit is funding. It's a huge early adoption incentive and government funding isn't going to be around forever. And as a company, we're able to secure a ton of funding for our clients. And it really drives down the cost of these easy installation projects.

Trevor Freeman 12:25

Geat. And you know, you can't really talk about EVs or electrification without you knowing, at least considering sustainability and climate goals. Do you find that your customers' goals when it comes to hitting a netzero target or just reducing emissions? Does that really impact the decisions they're making? And as a result, is that impacting your work?

Alana Jones 12:44

Yeah, absolutely. I believe the government mandate that all passenger vehicles being sold as of 2035, must be electric. And I think 20% by 2026, has had a huge impact on our clients, specifically dealerships. And some don't have any infrastructure in place at all, or even the capacity for the EV needs we're finding. So if service upgrades are required, that pushes the timeline of getting these EV chargers installed further and further away. We're also noticing municipalities looking to get fleets electrified, as well as looking to have larger service vehicles converted over to evey and everyone knows it's coming. And for some, it's been kept on the back burner. But like I said, 2035 really isn't that far away. So as a company, we are definitely growing to meet the demand of our customers. And so that's really a good sign of things moving in the right direction. And we know ultimately, it'll be better for the environment. Right? If all passenger vehicles and eventually working vehicles move to electric, that's not a secret. I think overcoming insecurities around electric vehicles is a big hurdle that many of us still have to get over. And I think that as battery technology improves, more affordable models are available. And the increase in public use chargers which we see happening rapidly, more and more people will get on board what I'll call the EV train.

Trevor Freeman 14:00

Right? Yeah, that's great to hear. Okay, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. So both of you are closer to the beginning of your career. I'm curious about how your experience so far has influenced how you see your own future path within the energy industry or elsewhere. Priscilla, why don't we start with you.

Priscilla Lacerda 14:18

Well, my current experience gives me a holistic view of the company, as it deals with different departments, which makes me think about pursuing a management career in the future.

Trevor Freeman 14:29

And do you see that - like, so you're in the distribution, part of the business now and specifically focused on reporting? Is that kind of where you have your eye or are you looking at other parts of the business?

Priscilla Lacerda 14:41

Well, working with distribution has always been rewarding for me. So I'd say I would like to continue to work with this. What makes me most fulfilled about the role that I'm currently playing is being able to help other departments identify possibilities for improvement in existing or new processes.

Trevor Freeman 14:59

Great, Alana, what about you?

Alana Jones 15:02

Um, I believe it's a really exciting time to be an engineer working in the energy sector, there are new and emerging technologies. It's fast paced, and there is an abundance of work to be done. I'm just excited to be a part of it. Um, the industry isn't going anywhere. And like I said, it's growing rapidly. So having the experience to work alongside some really bright people on the bleeding edge of these technologies, is a really great opportunity. And hopefully, I'll have a career in this for years to come.

Trevor Freeman 15:30

Awesome. So I'm curious to hear from both of you. What do you think are some of the biggest challenges facing the energy industry right now? And Alana will let you kick that off?

Alana Jones 15:41

Yeah. I think one major challenge is having the infrastructure to support the electrification of buildings, homes, and all vehicles is a huge endeavor. And the grid needs to drastically increase in size and be ready to accommodate these future loads. And the pathway to net zero is a huge undertaking, and it will be challenging to achieve that, I believe. That's not to say it's not doable, but it's definitely a challenge and a massive investment. That being said, it's important to note that electrification changes are not happening all at once. Not everyone is switching to EV at the same time, or getting their buildings or homes all to net zero all at once. So I do believe that the Canadian grid is capable of growing gradually alongside those changes to be able to adapt.

Trevor Freeman 16:27

Great, Priscilla, what do you think?

Priscilla Lacerda 16:29

Well, one of the challenges the energy sector is facing right now is the urgency to meet the decarbonisation, and net zero targets. And this is driving significant electrification efforts across various sectors, as Alana just said, like transportation and construction, for example, because construction right now is changing, like the old heating and cooling gas systems for electric appliances. So being a key player in this scenario, Hydro Ottawa is working alongside partners, customers and suppliers to achieve our net zero goal for 2030. And also, we are committed to supporting our customers in their efforts to meet their own net zero targets amplifying our collective impact on sustainability.

Trevor Freeman 17:14

Yeah, great. I think you've both identified some pretty key challenges. And luckily, we've got great people like the two of you helping us get there. So I'm wondering if you guys have any advice that you would give to, you know, current students or people that are considering an engineering career or another career in the energy sector that you can pass on based on your experience? Priscilla, you can start us off.

Priscilla Lacerda 17:38

I would say seek opportunities, like internships or Co Op programs during your engineering studies. Because even though theoretical knowledge is essential. It's also important to know how to apply what you're learning in real life situations.

Trevor Freeman 17:54

Yeah, that's a great point, Alana, any great advice?

Alana Jones 17:57

Yeah, I agree, I would say absolutely get involved. It's a great opportunity to contribute to climate change solutions. I believe it's a stable industry with a ton of opportunities to learn about the latest and greatest technologies. As I mentioned before, I come from a mining community where it's not always stable. It's a very boom or bust industry. So when it's good, it's really good. But there are times the price of minerals drop and mines close, jobs are lost and communities become ghost towns. It's just not the same as it is in the energy sector. There is and will be for the foreseeable future and abundance of work and I believe in the need for skilled workers. So when choosing a path to take your career, I think the energy sector is one that I would highly recommend.

Trevor Freeman 18:40

Great, thanks for that. That's great to hear. Could you each talk about a misconception about the energy industry or your work that you think people might have that you'd like to, you know, let them know about?

Alana Jones 18:53

Sure. And a misconception around my work with electric vehicles and I see this a lot. I believe there's a lot of insecurities around EVs, so battery ranges, one especially in colder climates, like Ottawa. Battery technology, though, is constantly improving, and there are ways to mitigate the effects of the cold weather on your battery. Things like preconditioning your battery by turning it on, turning on the heat for even 10 minutes before driving. Some vehicles even offer a winter weather feature that helps keep the battery in an ideal temperature zone. Another aspect is that five years ago, the landscape looked much different when getting from point A to point B. Now public EV infrastructures are everywhere. When you look at the EV charging maps and cities. They're just covered and it's only getting better. The government just announced a $1.2 billion investment to build 84,000 chargers across the country by 2029. So it's likely you won't be able to go anywhere without seeing a charger. And I think as more and more chargers are put on the map people will be more accepting of the technology or realize that it's not going anywhere and realize that it is a huge opportunity for us individuals to reduce our carbon footprint. Lastly, I think it's difficult for people to commit to the initial investment into electric vehicles. I think for a lot of people, they see the price tag on an EV . And that prevents them from taking that leap, I guess. But initial investment and cost of ownership are two different things. My hope is that the government incentives continue, just to help the average Canadian consumer be able to afford an EV and make that initial shift, because studies show that operating costs are significantly lower than that of a gasoline fueled counterpart.

Trevor Freeman 20:32

Yeah, that's great. I think it's a really important kind of misconception to talk about. And I'm hopeful that we're starting to see a shift in that. And obviously, the, you know, great work that you guys are doing an inquiry is helping alleviate some of those concerns and challenges. Priscilla, what about you, what's a misconception that you want to address?

Priscilla Lacerda 20:51

So I would like to raise awareness to a common misconception that electrical engineering is only for men. I read on the internet that women represent less than 20% of the engineering professionals in Canada. And I think we need to encourage more women to be a part of the energy industry and let them know that they are capable of succeeding in this field.

Trevor Freeman 21:12

Yeah, that's a great one as well. And and I agree, having gone through kind of engineering school and obviously working in this industry, what I will say is, it's really refreshing and encouraging to have, you know, really smart, passionate people like the two of you, kind of coming up in our organizations and, you know, hopefully eventually taking on more and more roles and leadership roles. So great to have you guys here today and talk about it. So thanks very much for the conversation. So far, I really appreciate hearing more about your experiences, how you got to where you are and what you're kind of looking at moving forward. To wrap up our conversation, there's a bit of a tradition on the show to ask some rapid fire questions. For the regular listeners out there. Just be warned, I may have changed them up a little bit. So they might be a little bit different from what you're used to hearing. But it's fresh for the two of you. So why don't we dive right in you both ready for the rapid fire portion of the interview?

Alana Jones 22:10

Ready?

Priscilla Lacerda 22:11

Yes.

Trevor Freeman 22:12

Awesome. Okay, so we're gonna start with Alana. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?

Alana Jones 22:20

1984 by George Orwell. Have a read if you have not already. You'll see its relevance throughout history and even present day and I find that very fascinating.

Trevor Freeman 22:31

Yeah, that's a good one. Priscilla, what about you?

Priscilla Lacerda 22:34

Well, for me, it's The Little Prince, because it seems like a simple story at first, but then it's actually very philosophical. And every time that I read, it makes me reflect a lot.

Trevor Freeman 22:45

Yeah, those are I mean, I'm not really supposed to provide commentary on the rapid fire part, but I'm going to anyway, those are both great answers. And great books like ones you can read over and over again and kind of get a little bit more out of it each time you read. So awesome answers to that. So same question, but for a movie or a show. What's a movie or a show that you think everyone should watch, Priscilla?

Priscilla Lacerda 23:08

So, a movie that I like very much is The Pursuit of Happiness, because it's about perseverance in adverse life situations.

Trevor Freeman 23:18

Great Alana. What about you?

Alana Jones 23:20

The Shawshank Redemption, I love a good comeback story.

Trevor Freeman 23:24

Nice, awesome. If somebody offered you a free round trip - just for the record, I'm not offering you a free round trip - But if somebody offered you a free round trip flight to anywhere in the world, where would you go? Alana?

Alana Jones 23:37

I would love to go relax in the south of France with some wine, the warm weather and tour around on a big old boat.

Trevor Freeman 23:46

Perfect Priscilla, what but you

Priscilla Lacerda 23:49

Scotland seems like a magical place to visit.

Trevor Freeman 23:53

Yeah, it sure was a great answer. Who is someone that you admire? Priscilla?

Priscilla Lacerda 23:59

So for me, it's my husband because he was truly brave to leave everything behind in our home country to emigrate with me.

Trevor Freeman 24:07

Yeah, that can't have been easy for either of you. Alana, what about you?

Alana Jones 24:11

I would also say my spouse, he's the hardest working person I know and a great provider. He's also the best dad, we have three young boys and they absolutely adore him. He can be out working all day and still come home with energy to wrestle and play with them. And he just teaches them so many useful life skills. And I really, really adore watching them learn from them.

Trevor Freeman 24:31

Awesome. That's great answer. Okay, so I mean, these are typically not topic relevant questions, but I'm going to slip one in here as part of our rapid fire section. What is an emerging technology or trend in the energy sector that you're most excited about and that you think will have a massive impact? Priscilla, why don't you start?

Priscilla Lacerda 24:51

So the trend of buying an electric vehicle in our daily lives is having a massive impact on how we need to prepare this system to absorb the growing demand for power in residential and commercial units. I think this will also have a huge impact on the environment too. Because electric cars batteries will need to be discarded or recycled once they reach their lifespan.

Trevor Freeman 25:15

Yeah, I think you're totally right EVs are kind of that first technology when we look at the energy transition, the one that's maybe the furthest along, there's others to come. But I think you're totally right. It's the one that really we're starting to see what some of the challenges and opportunities are for that. So great answer, Alana, what about you?

Alana Jones 25:34

Yeah, so an emerging technology I was recently introduced to a company that produces wireless inductive charging for vehicles. So if you can imagine, there are these charging pads, basically, they're placed in the ground, and your vehicle gets equipped with a receiver that when you drive over these pads, charging is engaged, there's no need for wires or plugs or even to step out of your vehicle for that matter. It just seems like a really great technology. And I'm really anxious to see if it will be in Ottawa anytime soon. If we'll be seeing that around. Where do you see the applications for that? Is that like in parking garages? Or parking lots? Or is that something embedded in the road when you drive over it? Yeah, it is embedded in the road. So the company works with a few, they've already done these installations with a few other companies. One thing we're busing fleets. So they have these large buses that go in charge, instead of doing it at the depot, they can kind of go in their lane, and they're really fast charging, and things like that. So it's a good application for that for larger vehicles as well.

Trevor Freeman 26:33

It's definitely one of those sectors, or those areas that you know, some of the possibilities out there are pretty exciting to see about how we might, you know, envision our lives in the future. Makes you think of those, you know, articles or those magazines that say this is what life is going to be like in 2050. And imagine if we're all driving around charging our cars while we drive, I think that's pretty cool. Okay, well, thank you both for joining me today. It's been really great getting to know you and hearing a little bit more about what you do and how you got to where you are. I'm really excited for you both as you continue to chart your career paths and decide, you know, where your interests and your passions lie and kind of follow that. But really, I'm glad we've got smart folks like you who are going to be helping us shape the future of energy, maybe chasing down those roads that charge our cars. So thanks very much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Alana Jones 27:21

Thanks, Trevor. I appreciate you having us on the show.

Priscilla Lacerda 27:24

Yeah, thank you very much. It was awesome.

Trevor Freeman 27:26

Great. Thanks, guys. To everyone else out there. Thanks for listening, and we'll chat next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review and really help us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com

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Thinkenergy launched May 2019, with host Dan Séguin leading the charge to demystify the fast-changing world of energy. From helping Canadians better understand the sector to sharing insights from industry leaders and experts, Dan is a key reason why thinkenergy is the podcast for conversations around the future of energy. In his last episode as host, Dan passes the mic to Trevor Freeman, Supervisor, Key Accounts at Hydro Ottawa. Listen in as they share favourite episodes, what’s to come and more.

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Daniel Séguin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-s%C3%A9guin-a29b4130/

Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

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Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today's show is going to be a little different. This is a bittersweet episode of thick energy podcasts. Today marks the end of an era for me on this incredible journey through the world of energy. It's been an honor and a privilege to share stories, insights, and innovations with all of you these many years on the show. But as they say, all good things must come to an end. Today, I'm excited to introduce you to the new Captain steering this ship into the future, someone who is just as passionate and knowledgeable about the energy sector than I am, maybe a little more. So. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming your new host of the think energy podcast. Trevor Freeman. Trevor, welcome to the show.

Trevor Freeman 01:21

Thanks very much, Dan. And thanks for having me on and entrusting me with this project. I just want to start by recognizing all the hard work that you and your team have put into building thinkenergy into what it is today. It's a great community of listeners who are enthusiastic and curious about all things energy related. I've really enjoyed following along. And I'm thrilled to be joining the think energy team as we continue to explore this dynamic and ever changing world of energy at this really critical time in our industry.

Dan Seguin 01:50

Trevor, for our listeners, perhaps you can tell us about yourself, your expertise in the energy sector in short, what is your role now? And how did you get here?

Trevor Freeman 02:02

Sure. So I'm an environmental engineer who has been in the sustainability and energy field for about 14 years now. Right when I graduated out of university, I spent about four years working in international development and water and sanitation. But I'm coming back home to Canada I decided to explore this passion for sustainability and environmental improvement. And I made the shift to working in green building design and energy management. I worked in consulting and helping building owners primarily commercial real estate, improve their buildings, reduce energy consumption and costs, and incorporate sustainable thinking into their day to day business operations. I joined Hydro Ottawa about eight years ago now, first working on our conservation and demand management team, before making the jump over to our key accounts team, which I now lead. As the leader of the key accounts team, we support some of our largest commercial customers with all things related to energy, we're here to be their trusted advisors, whether that's routine questions or access to various services that Hydro Ottawa offers, or looking ahead, as more and more of our customers start to plan their own decarbonisation, or energy transition pathways. It's really a great role that helps my team and I really understand the needs and drivers of our customers, which are ultimately the end users of the energy that gets talked about on this podcast so often, that understanding helps Hydro Ottawa plan to meet the needs of those customers moving forward.

Dan Seguin 03:37

Okay, aside from fame and fortune, what drew you to take on this role of hosting the podcast?

Trevor Freeman 03:45

Well, I mean, since I can't talk about the first two, which are really the main drivers. In addition to being an engineer, I'm actually really passionate about communicating complex items. I know the term 'good communication' is not always associated with engineers, and I'm allowed to make that joke. But I really do enjoy having, you know, those tough conversations about complex and technical topics, whether that's how the grid works, to the changing landscape and technologies associated with energy to simply how does your electricity bill work? Or how does a building mechanical system work? I really enjoy having those conversations. And this seems like a great opportunity. So that plus seeing all the great conversations you've been able to have over the past years, with some really fantastic folks who are doing really great things, made it an easy decision to step into the role when the opportunity arose.

Dan Seguin 04:37

Very cool, Trevor, sorry, but I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Do you have any favorite episodes of rhe thinkenergy podcast that resonate with you?

Trevor Freeman 04:48

Sure. I'm actually going to cheat here, Dan, and give you three but I promise I'll be quick. So the first one is an episode that you did about residential heat pumps, with our mutual colleague Sean Carr. So I'm a little bit biased in this one because not only do I know Shawn story very well, but I actually went through my own heat pump journey about four years ago when I installed the hybrid heating system and my own house. And I think the more we talk about the benefits and the challenges of electrifying home heating, the easier we make that step for everyone else, who's going to be doing it as well. The second one I'm going to pick is your interview with Hydro Ottawa's CEO, Bryce Conrad, about our own netzero ambitions as an organization. So folks can go back and listen for themselves. But as a member of the Hydro Ottawa team, I was really inspired by the ambition and the drive to be a leader, and commit to something bold and lofty, even though we don't necessarily have all the answers about exactly how we're going to get there. And finally, I really loved your conversation with Dr. Monica Gettinger about the conversation we need to have around the future of energy, specifically her Positive Energy Program. As someone who is really passionate about taking action around climate change. I'm all too aware that as much as we finally seem to be getting some consensus that climate change is indeed a problem, there's still a lot of polarizing views about how to address the issue and how fast to move. Dr. Gettinger's work on building consensus and having a constructive dialogue was really refreshing to hear and made me really optimistic about where we can go with this.

Dan Seguin 06:22

Cool. Okay, now, what excites you about the future of energy?

Trevor Freeman 06:28

Yeah, I think this is a really great time to be in the energy fields, things feel like they're changing rapidly. And it seems like we're on the cusp of a real evolution of how we power our lives and our society. Whether it's what kind of energy we use - clean energy versus emissions producing energy, where that energy comes from, you know, centrally produced versus distributed, and how much control over that energy, the end users. So that's the homes and the businesses have through things like self generation and storage and smart technology. And that's not even talking about how that smart technology and AI is going to impact all of the above. So above all, I think I'm really excited to be working in an industry. That's really one of the major tools we have as a society to combat climate change. Electricity, while not the only answer is a major avenue for decarbonisation, and I really love being a part of that.

Dan Seguin 07:28

Okay, Trevor, are there any topics or themes from your experience that you'd like to explore further on show? What can our listeners expect?

Trevor Freeman 07:38

Honestly, Dan, I hope it's more of the same as what you've been doing over these past years. So that's talking to smart folks who are doing really cool things in the energy industry, especially around decarbonisation, and the energy transition that includes helping demystify some of those more complex topics for our listeners, you know, how does this big machine that we call the electricity grid in the energy industry? How does that all work? And what does it mean for our consumers, and then getting into the weeds on the energy transition, whether that's specific technologies or policy ideas, or more likely a mix of the both because you really can never have one without the other?

Dan Seguin 08:16

Very cool. Thanks, Trevor.

Trevor Freeman 08:19

Thank you, Dan. So I think this is the part where I get to take over. Now your listeners will know that you've been sitting behind the microphone for a number of years now, but I don't think anybody has ever interviewed you. So let's take this opportunity to ask you a couple of questions. So first of all, I was thinking maybe you could take us back to the beginning and tell us what inspired you to start this podcast?

Dan Seguin 08:43

Well, our first podcast for those who don't remember, it was released in May of 2019. The topic was Microgeneration, wow! Ee explored the possibility, back then, of turning your home into your own virtual power plant. Now, the reason why we dove into podcasting was driven by the fact that we were looking for a product a platform that could help demystify maybe better understand the fast changing world of energy. We were looking for a product where we could maybe better shape the narrative, you know, by leveraging influencers and subject matter expert. It provided us with greater ability if you want to maximize the reach of the podcast, but also its amplification. Also, working with a captive audience like minded people, is much easier. Finally, another reason we gravitated to podcasting was to deal with info obesity, great term here, you know, cluster and noise on channels is constantly increasing and customer attention span is shrinking. So podcasts were convenient and very easy to consume. They're poor. audible. You can listen to them in a gym, drive to work or even on a plane. So it was a great choice for us to do and it worked very well. Now, if I look back five years, I think that podcasts have been extremely sticky. This long form content, basically had a great listen rate. And for us, I think we did good.

Trevor Freeman 10:24

Great. Thanks, Dan. I can tell already that I've got a lot to learn on the communication side of things and marketing what we do here. On the podcast, do you have a favorite moment or more than one from doing the show that you want to share a favorite episode or something that really stands out and encapsulates the essence of think energy?

Dan Seguin 10:45

So you're asking me to pick my favorite child? That's a tough one. Okay. Well, I think the one that comes into mind is the episode with a disaster volunteer from the Canadian Red Cross. As we all know, we've experienced a pandemic, a number of natural disasters in the last couple of years, devastating wind storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, freezing rain, forest fires and floods. And when disaster strikes, electricity supply is usually jeopardized. So during these large scale, emergencies, emergency response becomes critical. And in this interview, we explored what it's like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. It's a very cool episode.

Trevor Freeman 11:36

Over the past number of years of doing this, what has been the most significant change or changes and developments in the energy sector that you've seen?

Dan Seguin 11:44

I think it's the acknowledgement of reducing our environmental footprint, the commitment to provide innovative sustainable solutions, things like achieving net zero operations. Also, climate change, coupled with the push for electrification is now driving a lot of innovation and change in our sector. What comes to mind is that greater push towards renewable energy, expanding access to EV infrastructure, as zero emission with public transit, there's a lot going on. And let's not forget the evolution of customers. They are no longer passive consumers of electricity, some of them are now becoming prosumers, managing, generating and selling their energy. So the energy landscape is in a constant flux. And it's going to be an exciting ride.

Trevor Freeman 12:40

So as I sit here, behind the microphone on this side of the desk, what advice do you have for me taking on this podcasts around that ever evolving world of energy?

Dan Seguin 12:50

This is not going to be long winded. Always make sure the content provides value for the audience. You must be audience driven. Be curious, and have fun. That's it.

Trevor Freeman 13:04

Perfect. Sounds easy. So Dan, as you step away from hosting, what comes next? Are we going to be competing for podcast listeners or what's in your future?

Dan Seguin 13:12

Not at all. I'll be spending a lot more time with my wife. I'm going to continue my karate journey. I'm going to master pickleball my word. I want to do bike rail trails across Canada in the US. And I'm looking forward to joining the ever growing generation of snowbirds in Florida. While renovating my condo in Naples and enjoying the beach.

Trevor Freeman 13:40

As long as you put some solar on that condo, Dan, I think that sounds like an awesome plan. So finally, just to wrap it all up again, our regular listeners will know that you have subjected your guests to some on the spot rapid fire questions. And again, I don't think you've ever answered them yourselves. So I think it's time that we get to hear what your answers to those questions would be. So are you ready?

Dan Seguin 14:03

I am.

Trevor Freeman 14:04

Here we go. What are you reading right now?

Dan Seguin 14:07

Right now I'm reading Forever Young by Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. It's a book on strategies for aging.

Trevor Freeman 14:13

Well, sounds appropriate given your coming retirement. So what would you name your boat if you had one? And do you have one?

Dan Seguin 14:21

I do not. I used to have a pontoon boat when I lived by the lake, but I would call it now, I think, Gilligan.

Trevor Freeman 14:29

Who is someone that you admire?

Dan Seguin 14:31

Hands down my life partner, my better half, France, my wife.

Trevor Freeman 14:35

I know that if I'd have asked you to name two people, I would have been number two.

Dan Seguin 14:38

Oh, absolutely.

Trevor Freeman 14:39

I know that like many of us, you are probably guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and streaming platforms over the last number of years. So what's your favorite movie or show?

Dan Seguin 14:49

Okay, well, the best Netflix series hands down is Peaky Blinders. And for me the best movies I'll go with three. The Godfather, Memento and Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.

15:03

Well Dan, I think we've reached the end of this transition episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again for pulling me in and then trusting this with me. And thanks for sharing a little bit about your life with us today.

Dan Seguin 15:16

Very cool. Thank you very much.

Trevor Freeman 15:18

And finally, what excites you about the energy industry right now?

Dan Seguin 15:22

Well, I think I alluded to this earlier, I think what's exciting me is seeing how the electricity grid, how utilities across North America will cope with a millions of EVs should be interesting.

Trevor Freeman 15:36

You'll have to come back in Dan and check in on things in a year or two. And we've got it all figured out. No doubt. So Dan, I think that's it. I think we've reached the end of this transition episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again for having me on for entrusting this with me, and for sharing a little bit about your insights and your life with us on this episode.

Dan Seguin 15:58

Thank you, Trevor. There you have it, folks, thank you all for being part of this amazing community. And I look forward to tuning in now as a listener. From now on. This is Dan Seguinsigning off and passing the microphone over to Mr. Trevor Freeman.

Trevor Freeman 16:17

Thanks, Dan. It's been a pleasure.

Dan Seguin 16:20

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

View Details

Rewind episode: The pressure to tackle pollution and climate change is increasing, as countries worldwide are eliminating greenhouse gases and moving away from fossil fuels. This shift towards a cleaner future has a lot of moving parts, especially as it relates to cleaning Canada’s energy sector. Merran Smith, founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada, joins us to talk about whether Canada can affordably and realistically accelerate our clean energy transition to reach our net zero goals.

Related links

• LinkedIn, Merran Smith: https://www.linkedin.com/in/merran-smith-64603b63/
• LinkedIn, Clean Energy Canada: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clean-energy-canada/
• Clean Energy Canada: https://cleanenergycanada.org/

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Trancript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today, we're coming clean about what clean energy could look like in the near future. That's right. And with the help of our guests, we're going to define what clean energy means, specifically for Canada and the future of electricity. There is a rising pressure around the globe to transition away from fossil fuels, eliminate greenhouse gases, and challenge the status quo when it comes to pollution and tackling climate change. What does that mean for Canada and our place in a clean energy world? Obviously, there's a lot of moving parts when it comes to cleaning Canada's energy sector, particularly when it comes to transportation, and heating of our buildings. But there's more to it than just that. There's renewable energy, revamping and expanding the electricity grid and conserving energy. Not to mention innovation and technology that doesn't exist yet. That will all play a role in getting us to Canada's Net Zero targets. So here's today's big question. Can Canada affordably and realistically accelerate its transition to clean energy in time? Our guest today is Marren Smith, Founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada is a leading Think Tank, advancing clean energy and climate solutions. Marren has won numerous awards for her work and also serves as co chair of the BC government's Climate Solutions Council. Okay, Marren, let's kick things off by telling our listeners about yourself, your work, and what Clean Energy Canada is.

Marren Smith 02:23

Yeah, so I'll start with Clean Energy Canada, we're a think tank based at Simon Fraser University's Center for dialogue. And we focus on solutions to accelerate the transition to a clean energy economy. And so what do we actually do? You know, we do think tank things like analysis and policy advice. But what makes us really different is that one, we focus on the solutions, not the problems, all about solutions to we really like to bring together business industry unions, get everybody in the room and see if we can get consensus around the advice to governments so that they can move solutions forward faster. And thirdly, what we do is we do a lot of talking to Canadians about the energy transition, how it links to jobs, to a nick strong economy and more affordability. And so we think of ourselves actually as a do tank and not a think tank. And myself, I'm a fellow at Simon Fraser University, I founded Clean Energy Canada, I'm now moved on, I'm no longer the Executive Director. I'm the Chief Innovation Officer. And I had been asked over the years, in the last 10 years doing this work, to co chair a number of Climate and Energy advisory bodies for both the federal and British Columbia governments. And I think that's because I have a pretty long track record of bringing together unusual allies around solutions to environmental energy and economy problems. So that's a bit about me.

Dan Seguin 04:09

Now, I'm somewhat curious, how does Clean Energy Canada define clean energy? Is it in relation to zero emissions? Or is there more to it than that?

Marren Smith 04:22

Yeah, so for us, we talk about clean energy spanning both energy supply. So renewable electricity, for example, solar, wind, thermal, but also demand. And so our definition of clean energy includes, like, as I said, renewable electricity generation, but also energy storage, energy transmission, energy efficiency, and any of the technologies or services that decarbonize transportation buildings in these and other polluting parts of our economy. So we have a fairly large definition of clean energy. And you know it really, when you look at it, that is what energy is all about. It's not just about making the energy. It's about how you use it and the technology so that you can use it more efficiently.

Dan Seguin 05:18

Clean Energy Canada has been advocating for climate action since 2010; 12 years in what are three positive changes that have made the biggest impact in Canada? And what is one that has hindered success?

Marren Smith 05:37

Yeah, this is a great question. So the three positive changes that I see is, one, the cost of these clean energy technologies have dropped significantly. So the the solutions are cheaper. Secondly, is that we've really moved past the climate debate in Canada. And thirdly, is electric vehicles. And I just want to talk a bit about each of those if that's okay, so the costs of clean energy technologies, many people don't understand that. Over this last decade, the cost of solar has dropped yet again, it's dropped another 90%. Over those last decade, the cost of batteries, which are the heart of an electric vehicle have dropped about 90%, wind has dropped about 40%. And so, you know, a dozen years ago, clean energy Canada was talking about this is coming, we need to prepare Canada needs to be aware as an oil and gas producer, we need to be looking at this clean energy transition. But now, it's here, these technologies are ready for primetime. And the eccotemp economic opportunities are there to create jobs here in Canada around those clean energies. So that's significant. Um, the second one is I think we've all lived through and seen in the news, this debate about whether Canada should be acting on climate, whether it's real, whether Canada has any responsibility, whether it's feasible. And that's now become a real global conversation. And there's a clear message globally that we need to act now. And, you know, we've had over this last six years, federal government, with the leadership that's aligning with those global efforts to act on climate. And in fact, this federal government has created the first climate plan that Canada's had to meet our climate targets, and they're now really putting it into action. And so that's been a significant and positive shift that we're actually moving to action. And thirdly, is around electric vehicles. And, you know, I just have to say them specifically. Because, in my observation, they really show Canadians what the transition looks like. It kind of looks like what it used to be, you know, an electric vehicle and a gas fired vehicle, they look pretty similar. But people are seeing how much better they are that they are more affordable to drive, and especially the today's price of gas, you know, if you're plugging in and charging your car, you know, your Chevy Bolt and getting 400 kilometers for somewhere, you know, depending on where you live in Canada, five to ten dollars versus what it's costing to fill up your car that's significant. So electric vehicles and how fast they have come online, how we have seen, the manufacturers shift is to go from, we're resisting this to this as the future we want to be out in front and competing to be the ones who are going to be producing them. So that dramatic shift, it's really showing how we can link this decarbonisation climate action with the economy, that our industries can be successful and that we can really move forward towards netzero towards decarbonisation towards cleaner energies. And, you know, continue with a strong economy if we do at night, right if we act now. And I guess Lastly, about electric vehicles, it's for anybody who hasn't gotten in one yet, you really should, because they're pretty fun to drive. And that's what we want this energy transition to be. We want it to be make life better. And I think electric vehicles are just one way that people can see how, you know, once you get over the hurdle of purchasing one, it does make life better, cleaner air, more affordable to drive. Now, you asked the other question, what's hindered success? And I would say what's really hindered Canada's movement on all of this has been the debate and the governments that have really ripped up climate action or refused to move forward on climate action. And, you know, that's created uncertainty. So we've seen various governments in Ontario in Alberta, you know, federally across the country, I shouldn't just name those provinces, because across the country, governments who come in and who are not willing to take action on climate and really want to stick with the static quo. And that really creates a lot of uncertainty for business and doesn't drive the change. I'm really hopeful that we're not going to see that anymore. You know, now that we've seen this new inflation reduction act out of the United States, it is sending a clear signal that this is the biggest economic opportunity that there has been, you know, in this generation, absolutely. To drive and build this clean energy economy, they are investing heavily in it. And we're going to see in the United States, those kinds of investments happening all over the country, you know, in red states and blue states, blue collar workers are going to be you know, being employed in plants, white collar workers, rural urban, this, this is going to be a massive, massive growth for industries and the economy, in producing electricity producing batteries and producing all the component pieces towards them hydrogen, retrofitting buildings. So there is a huge boom coming. And I hope that in Canada, we actually see our government picking up on that as well and linking this decarbonisation with our economic strategy.

Dan Seguin 11:55

Marren, what do you mean when you state that the Clean Energy Transition is a once in a generation opportunity for Canada to build a resilient, growing and inclusive economy?

Marren Smith 12:10

Yeah, so we've just talked about how we're really seeing around the globe, you know, the United States, but we've been seeing this in the EU and the UK and China, this, you know, linking up their industrial strategy, their economic strategy, to their economic strategies. And so Canada really has what it takes to make this shift as well to, you know, take action on climate decarbonize and really shift from fossil fuels oriented economy to a clean energy or renewable energy economy. So we have the natural resources that are going to be needed, you know, those metals and minerals, for example, we're going to be needing that steel, that cobalt, that nickel to be building the transmission lines, the solar panels, and in particular, the batteries, which are really the heart of the clean energy system. So Canada has what it takes. And then secondly, we've got the clean electricity or grids about 83% clean or zero mission right now. We've got a skilled labor force. So that's what the opportunity is, it's going to be a massive effort for us to retool our existing industries and build some of these new industries. But we've got the potential to do it.

Dan Seguin 13:40

Next question. Now, what makes Canada well positioned to be a global clean energy leader?

Marren Smith 13:48

So Canada's got the natural resources that we talked about metals and minerals, forest products, agricultural products, we've got great solar and wind resources and a grid that's already at 3% zero emission. We have great potential for green hydrogen. And, you know, we've got great trading relationships with the US as well as Europe and Asia. So we are positioned to be creating clean energy and one of the things that we are uniquely positioned around our batteries. Batteries are going to be the heart of the energy system. So they're obviously the heart of the electric vehicle. But also, large scale batteries are going to be what backs up that intermittent or variable wind and solar and renewable energies, they're going to be a part of the system as well. And so Canada is the only country in the Western world. It's actually the only democratically elected country that has all the metals and minerals needed to produce batteries. So In addition, we've got the good clean electricity to actually manufacture those metals and minerals and turn them into, you know, refine them, turn them into cells and ultimately batteries. So we've got the key components there. And that one huge opportunity for Canada. And we're seeing you know, this federal government has been working with Ontario and Quebec and landing some significant battery company investments, you know, GM and Bay calm for this year, LG and still Lantus in Ontario. So that's I some of the key parts of why Canada is so well positioned to be a clean energy leader.

Dan Seguin 15:45

Next question for you. What are the strategies you employ to achieve your mission to accelerate Canada's transition to a renewably powered economy?

Marren Smith 15:56

Yeah, so one, I think that we work with businesses, industry unions, to understand what their needs are, you know, we're positioned at the Center for dialogue at Simon Fraser University. And so we use dialogue, bring people together, structure it so that we can have a deliberate conversation that gets us to advice for government. So that's one of the strategies we employ. A second one is, you know, we look around the world and we find out what policies are working elsewhere, what programs, what are other countries doing that's working? And what can we glean out of that, and use in the Canadian context, and feed that kind of information to governments and to industry about what they can do next? Because Kevin does not the only one doing this, and there's a lot of countries that are ahead of us on this. So let's learn from them, and Canadian eyes it. And then lastly, we really have an eye to bringing the public along with us in this conversation, ensuring that they understand the Clean Energy Transition exactly what does it mean, understand some of the policies when they get controversial? And understand what's in it for them? You know, and right now we're seeing a public that is got, you know, a lot of insecurity going on with the global state of affairs, the war in the Ukraine, you know, this energy prices escalating, there's a lot of misinformation going on. And so, actually having the public understand and see how they fit into the energy transition, and how it's going to make life better for them, is, I'd say, a very important part of the transition. And so we do what we can we actually study how to communicate with the public and study language, what works with them, what resonates and how to get the stories to them that are going to help them understand this energy transition, what they can do, and what they can support.

Dan Seguin 18:06

Marren wondering if you could unpack for our listeners, what are some of the ways clean energy Canada has contributed to our country's progress in the last year or two?

Marren Smith 18:19

Yeah, so we have been working hard over the last couple of years. And I'll tell you about some of the significant achievements that I think we've been part of making happen. So first is about electric vehicles, or zero emission vehicles, as they're called in some circles. We see these as a key part of the solution, and one that is getting ready for primetime. They're a key part of the solution, because one quarter of Canada's carbon pollution is from transportation. So we've got to tackle this and about half of it from passenger vehicles, half of it's from trucks and buses. And so we've been working on both sides of that equation. And one of the things that had become the barrier has been supply of cars. At this point, people want them and we're seeing the uptake of those cars, you know, double and triple year over year. And so how do you get the supply here and how you do that through a policy called the zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the automakers to sell them in, in Canada. And so that's one that we've been working on. We actually were successful in getting one in British Columbia. And you know, and I have to report to you that so far in 2022 17% of new car sales have been electric vehicles. So that just far outpaces what people predicted. I think we were trying to get to 10% by 2025. We've blown through that we've now increased our targets because clearly for Colombians are ready to buy them. And there's similar types of stats from Quebec, who also has a zero emission vehicle mandate. The challenge for the rest of the country, and you know, if you're in Ottawa, you're probably going and putting your name on the list. And it's multiple years, you might not even be able to get on the list anymore, because there just aren't any cars. And so we need a federal zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the companies to the automakers to sell electric vehicles in Canada, or they're penalized. So that's one thing that we've made good progress on and contributed to. One that I haven't talked much about, that I'll mention here is about the steel sector, the cement sector, these heavy industries that are also heavy polluters. And, you know, so that's another area we've been working on and looking for solutions. We're looking at, okay, much of this steel, cement, aluminum, it's all being used in the construction industry. So how do we get those who are building things and buying things to demand low carbon steel, low carbon cement, which will really help these industries put it'll push them to to decarbonize and so that program is called by clean. The biggest purchaser of steel and cement and, and these types of things in the country is the government and we've been working to get the government to commit to a bike clean policy. The really interesting thing is that the steel sector, the cement sector, the aluminum sector V, these sectors are really on board to decarbonizing, this is globally happening. We're seeing all of these industries recognize that they cannot be admitting the scale of pollution, they are right now they've got to reduce that carbon pollution get to net zero. And so, again, we're seeing progress on reducing emissions in that sector. And we're seeing, you know, the United States and Canada have actually said that they are going to work together on this bike lanes so that both countries are pushing that they will procure, they will only purchase low, lower carbon, steel, cement, etc, for building our hospital, roads, schools, and all those good things. So that's another one that I'd say we could say we've been involved with, and batteries, I've already talked about it. We've been involved in the batteries for the last few years, and bringing together that sector, from the mining sector, all the way up to battery producers and electric vehicle, you know, the automatic factoring companies like GM, and all the way to the recyclers, and working with government to get, you know, a battery strategy for Canada to really ensure that we lock in and land the most jobs and the most opportunities for Canadians across the country. And these would be jobs in different provinces and opportunities for different provinces, you know, rural urban jobs, etc. So it's a big opportunity, but Canada's got to act quickly if we really want to get the most benefits from it. And by the most benefits, I mean, we could be creating a quarter of a million jobs by 2030 in this sector, which would be good for the country and will help us as we're transitioning, you know, out of other job sectors.

Dan Seguin 23:36

Okay, Marren, are you able to expand on some of Clean Energy Canada's short term goals?

Marren Smith 23:44

Yeah. So I would say right now, our top short term goal is around public awareness and understanding how shifting to clean energy is going to help affordability for Canadians. I think this is critical and important, because you know, this electrification, people are very sensitive to the price of electricity and increasing costs of electricity. And so there's a piece of work to ship to understanding what your overall energy costs are. So as we move off of fossil fuels, that means you're not spending as much on gas anymore. You know, for your gas fired car, but your electricity bill is going to go up. As you shift off of the having gas to heat and cool your home and shifting to an electric heat pump, their electricity bills can go up. We did some research earlier this year. Report called the true cost looking at some of the top models of cars in Canada, what it costs to purchase one plus run it over eight years, and we'll probably talk a bit more about this letter later. So just to say having Canadians under stand that this shift, while it's gonna have some costs in the short term is a more affordable and a better option for Canadians.

Dan Seguin 25:11

You recently contributed to a white paper with Electric Mobility Canada, on how Canada can design an effective zero emission vehicle mandate. I'm curious, what are some of your recommendations?

Marren Smith 25:27

Yeah. So, I'd say trying to do this in a nutshell. So first of all, is accountability. So we need to ensure that automakers are accountable and keeping pace with demand. And we need to do that with legally binding annual sales requirements so that they have to sell X percent of cars that are electric, and that there's serious financial penalties for non compliance. And that's, that's really the nuts and bolts of a good zero emission vehicle mandate. There's a whole bunch of details in there. Some provinces, like you mentioned, Quebec, and BC, they already have one, so we just need to use this in provinces that don't have them. And then our other key aspect of the recommendations was speed, we need to really finalize this regulation next year, so that it takes effect with model year 2024. There's really no time to wait on this. And we can see the demand for cars is there. We really need to be able to get them into the hands of people right now while they want them.

Dan Seguin 26:37

Now, for my first follow up question, we all know that the lack of supply is a big issue when it comes to zero emission vehicle sales. What's driving that? Are automakers prioritizing other markets? Where they're required to sell more EVs?

Marren Smith 27:00

Yeah, well, that's exactly what we're seeing here. In Canada, the majority of the electric vehicles are going to British Columbia and Quebec, because they're required to sell them there. And, you know, they're going to other states in the United States that have similar types of mandates California at one, but there's a button doesn't down there. And so they're sending them where they need to, you know, in the past, they have been making more money selling, you know, SUVs, for example, those bigger, heavier cars are where they've been making most of their profits. And so they're trying to get rid of those in Canada while they can. But this world is accelerating so quickly. You know, I think once we get the zero emission vehicle mandate, that rules so that the automakers have to sell the cars, we're going to start seeing them arrive in Canada, and we've seen, you know, the Detroit three have all been doubling and tripling their commitment for how fast they're going to start getting cars going and coming off the line. And I think we're going to only see that accelerate in the future. So I'm hoping that, you know, it looks like the automakers are more and more committing to be producing the cars. So the next obstacle is going to be the supply chain and whether they can get the batteries and get the other materials to make them.

Dan Seguin 28:34

Okay, another follow up question for you, Marren. Are there provinces in Canada that get prioritized for EV over others for example, Quebec, or maybe BC?

Marren Smith 28:46

Yeah, absolutely. That's why there's there certain car makes and models that you can only get in BC and Quebec, and that will be related to the zero emission vehicle mandate, you know, they, they get, there's a stick and if they don't sell enough cars, they get penalized. So they make sure the cars are in BC and Quebec and that's really the best selling feature for why we need this to be a national program and have a federal zero emission vehicle mandate.

Dan Seguin 29:16

Now hand in hand with that, you convened a select group of industry stakeholders and other experts to develop a report on advancing the Canadian evey battery sector. What were some of the key takeaways from those consultations?

Marren Smith 29:34

Yeah, so the report we produced which you can find on our website at talks about this opportunity, and it is huge to produce batteries. We're talking upwards of 250,000 jobs by 2030 and $40 billion annually going to the Canadian revenues. So that's a great opportunity, but it's not going to happen without you. No creating a strategy to get there. And that is the top recommendation from this group of industry and other experts. The Canadian battery Task Force is what they're called, the top recommendation is we need to have a Canadian battery strategy, which is going to ensure that we target and focus the investment dollars in the right place, that we get the workforce setup. Because, you know, while we do have a great workforce in Canada, we're going to need more workers and with the right skills, and that we make sure that we get the infrastructure, we get the electricity, the clean electricity to the right places, and then we've got enough of it. You know, we've seen almost every battery Manor battery manufacturing plant, that set up so far, has mentioned the zero emission electricity that you can get in Canada. And that's one of the reasons why they chose to build in Canada. And these are big global companies that are choosing to land in Ontario and Quebec so far. And so we just, we need that kind of strategy to ensure that we can get the most out of this battery opportunity.

Dan Seguin 31:16

I like that. Okay. Let's move on. Can you tell us about your recent analysis that found electric vehicles are in fact cheaper, often by a lot than their gas counterpart? What models were you comparing and what factors were considered?

Marren Smith 31:38

Yeah, so we looked at some of the best selling cars in Canada. Things like the Chevy Bolt as the electric versus its gas counterpart, the Toyota Corolla, the Hyundai Kona versus the electric Kona, the Nissan LEAF versus the Honda Civic etcetera. So we did this for a number of the top selling cars, we looked at purchasing it, as well as operating it and maintaining it over an eight year period. And, you know, what we found is that in almost every case, you were saving money. And you know, we've had to update this because the price of gas has gone up so much. But the total costs savings are going electric range from 10 to $15,000, over eight years. That's significant savings. And, you know, as you talked about, you know, you notice that there's almost no maintenance costs for an electric vehicle. And that your cost of fueling is, you know, so much cheaper. And this was before gas was at $2, a leader. So roughly back the envelope, you know, those savings are going to jump in, for example, the Kona to about $18,000 or more, a lot of people don't understand how much more affordable an electric vehicle is. And they look at the sticker price of buying a new car. And that's what turns them away. At you know, so we're encouraging people to really understand, look at the long term. And we know that not everybody can go buy a new car, I didn't buy a new car ever in my life till I bought an electric vehicle. I always bought used cars. But the savings are significant. And of course, the added bonus is the you know, zero emissions, you're part of the solution and helping with climate change.

Dan Seguin 33:42

Okay, a follow up question here. Were there any expectations here?

Marren Smith 33:47

Yeah, so the Ford electric F-150. It was pretty close. Probably now if we did it with the the price or cost of gas now, you would actually be more affordable on the Ford F-150 We haven't gone back to it. The other thing to note on this is that electric vehicles are really holding their value. So if you're someone who likes to buy a new car and sell it in eight or so years, your electric vehicle used car sales are much higher than when you buy a new gas fire vehicle and then sell it off.

Dan Seguin 34:27

When it comes to the electricity grid Canada is 83% emission free and with lower electricity rates than many other countries. We seem to be in an enviable position. But in your report underneath it all. Your findings show that Canada may not be as prepared for a carbon neutral world, as we may think. Now, for the big question, why is that?

Marren Smith 34:55

Yeah, we are ahead. But it's not just about Getting from 83% zero emission to 100%. If that was the only challenge before us, you know, it would take some work, but that's extremely doable. But this energy transition is really the whole sale, reengineering of many of our supply chains, almost the entirety of the energy system that powers the economy, it's huge. And we are going to need to double the amount of electricity we produce by 2050, as we shift our cars or homes or businesses off of fossil fuels and onto the grid. So that's the main message of our report is, you know, we need we have great opportunity here. But we need to double the size of the grid so that we are able to plug our cars and our home heating and cooling and our industries into that zero emission grid.

Dan Seguin 35:53

Okay, follow up question here. What are four reasons Canada needs to achieve 100%? clean electricity supply? And what are some of your recommendations?

Marren Smith 36:06

Yeah. So, you know, first off, it's so that we can effectively combat climate change. And that's, you know, top reason why we're doing this, it's also going to diversify and strengthen Canada's economy. You know, as I said, companies are looking to be powered by zero emission electricity. We've seen those battery plants coming here, one of the reasons cited, and there's more opportunities as more of the the world's industries really focus on how are they going to be net zero, for example, we see Walmart and Amazon, those companies are looking for supply chains that are zero emission, they're counting their carbon, and that includes their transportation. So it's, it's about making Canada competitive and ensuring that we are an attractive place because we can power our economy and our communities with clean electricity. The third reason is around the potential for indigenous reconciliation efforts in clean energy ownership. I think this is a very exciting opportunity. There's already a lot of indigenous communities that own or are partners in clean energy, and we can expand that as this moves forward. And then lastly, is we started talking about affordability on this podcast. And, you know, once you get over the purchasing of the new technologies, it's really more affordable to be plugged into a zero emission grid. And that's going to create more certainty, more security around energy supply.

Dan Seguin 37:51

Marren, what are some of the other benefits to increasing Canada's clean electricity supply?

Marren Smith 37:58

So you know, one, we need clean electricity to meet our climate targets. Secondly, it's around affordability. This is going to help make energy more affordable for communities. And then another benefit. It's clean air, of course, you know, once you shift off of diesel buses, for example, to electric buses out of diesel trucks to electric trucks, you're really cleaning up air quality in cities in particular, but in all communities. And then there's another potential benefit. You know, Canada, most people don't know this, we actually export 8%, for electricity right now to America, that brings in $2.6 billion. And you know, the US has the same commitments around getting to 100% clean electricity grid by 2035. There's a lot dirtier than ours, they've got a lot of catching up to do. And there's a potential for Canada that has an enormous wealth of potential for renewable electricity across the country. Places like you know, Alberta and Saskatchewan have incredible solar resources. We have wind opportunities, you know, offshore onshore. So there's potential for us to be investing in clean electricity, not just for our own needs, but as a immensely valuable export that's going to be in demand in the United States. And then link to that economic opportunity is green hydrogen. We're hearing more about hydrogen can something that Europe's looking at shifting off of natural gas onto green hydrogen, which is made you know, with water getting split with electricity and turned into hydrogen so that's a good clean energy source and something that candidate could also be a leader in.

Dan Seguin 39:56

Okay, tough part is over. We always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got some for you. Are you ready?

Marren Smith 40:07

I am. I'm ready. Okay,

Dan Seguin 40:09

So for the first one, what are you reading right now?

Marren Smith 40:12

So I just read picked up a book that I read a number of years ago, The Hearts Invisible Theories by John Bowen. It takes place in Ireland in the starts in the 40s, and follows the life of the other boy, that a man as he's going through, really coming into his own and discovering himself, and it's just beautifully written really great book.

Dan Seguin 40:40

Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?

Marren Smith 40:45

Well, you know, I lived on one for 11 years. And that boat was called Potential, but I thought about this permanent name of boat. Right now. I might name it unplugged, you know, because it would be the the ticket to just taking off and, and having some fun.

Dan Seguin 41:03

Who is someone that you admire?

Marren Smith 41:06

Yeah, I don't know, if you've heard of Christiana Figueres she was, for a number of years, the United Nations UNFCCC, which was the framework on climate change in the UN, she was the executive secretary there, she is just a fantastic climate leader, she is always positive. She continues to be optimistic in spite of all the challenges in this world, and so it got a smile on her face while she continues to do this work.

Dan Seguin 41:43

Next question, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Marren Smith 41:50

Maybe 15 years ago, I used to work up in what's called the Great Bear Rainforest off the coast of British Columbia, we're taking our group of people out to go see the place and experience it the beautiful ancient rainforest, an area the size of Ireland. And we were whalewatching, watching humpback whales, and they go around in a circle, and they blow their bubbles and make a net out of it. And then they all go down, and they come up in the middle. So there was four of them doing this and they come up in the middle, they make that net around a little school of fish, and they open their mouths and come up and and scoop up all the fish. And we were watching them do that. And then suddenly, I looked off this side of the boat, and there was all these little fish leaping out of the water. And suddenly, the whales picked up our boat and lifted it out of the water. And so it was just amazing. And there they were, then they just kind of sit around at the top, we could have just reached over and pat them. And then I was like, oh my god, I just I wonder if they're hurt. And as we sat there, they all sort of swam away. And they completely breached came out of the water from nose from tip to tail, you could see them all, they hadn't done this before, one after the other all for them. So you could see that they were just fine. And then they swam away.

Dan Seguin 43:24

Okay, moving on to the next one here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Marren Smith 43:32

Yeah, it's been this plethora of Zoom meeting staring at a screen hours after hour. And I'll tell you that I zipped out and got myself a stationary bike. And so during those zoom calls, everybody at first was laughing at me because I'd be kind of wiggling back and forth as I rode the bike slowly, just to keep myself going. And now all kinds of colleagues have now purchased stationary bikes as well.

Dan Seguin 44:09

Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?

Marren Smith 44:17

You know, a number of months ago, my family and I went to see The Last City with Sandra Bullock just like a ridiculous funny comedy and I was laughing out loud. And I was just like, you know, it was after the depths of COVID. It just felt great to laugh out loud at something that was just completely goofy and frivolous.

Dan Seguin 44:43

Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?

Marren Smith 44:49

It's the potential for the speed of change. You know, things are moving quickly. And it's that things can move quickly now Technology is ready for primetime. public understands that we need to take climate action. And governments and business are really seeing that economic strategy is going, you know, is is so linked to climate action. They see them as one in the same decarbonisation is what the economic future looks like.

Dan Seguin 45:25

Well, Marren, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, if our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how could they connect?

Marren Smith 45:37

Yeah, you can find us at cleanenergycanada.org. And you can also sign up on that for the Clean Energy Review, which is an email we send out every Monday morning that I hear from people in all walks of life from CEOs and ministers to receptionists and friends who don't even work in this. It's got the top 10 upbeat, optimistic solution based stories of the week, you can scan it in two minutes, or you can click on things and dive into these things in more details.

Dan Seguin 46:11

Again, Marren, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Marren Smith 46:16

I do. Thanks a lot for having me.

Dan Seguin 46:19

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Small-scale technologies like solar panels and on-site battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become more energy independent. In this episode, we talk with Dick Bakker, Director of the Ottawa Renewable Energy Co-operative (OREC), about his personal switch to solar power, OREC’s role as an advocate for renewable energy, and more.

Related links

• Ottawa Renewable Energy Co-operative: https://www.orec.ca/
• Dick’s article: https://www.orec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Vistas-Jan-2024-2pages.pdf
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. In today's era, there is a growing desire among residents to take charge of their energy consumption not only to manage costs, but also to actively generate their own power. Traditionally, electricity has been generated at large power plants and transmitted over extensive distances to homes and businesses, leaving consumers with little influence over the source of their electricity. However, advancements in small scale technologies such as solar panels and onsite battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become energy self-sufficient. In addition to these technologies, the integration of smart thermostats, vehicle to grid charging stations and heat pumps is further reshaping the dialogue around energy generation, conservation, and being active participants in an emission free future. Today, Canadians have the opportunity to take control of virtually every aspect of their energy consumption and interaction. The landscape of energy is evolving, putting the power back into the hands of individuals and communities alike. So here's today's big question. What role will innovative technologies and decentralized energy solutions play in shaping the future energy independence for individuals and communities? Joining us today is Dick Bakker, an Ottawa area homeowner that recently published an article about his experience installing a solar panel system on his home. Dick is also the director of an auto renewable energy cooperative, so brings a unique perspective on other small scale renewable projects his organization has been involved in. Dick, welcome to the show.

Dick Bakker 02:34

Thank you very much.

Dan Seguin 02:36

Now, you recently published an article about the process of installing solar panels on your home. What inspired you and your family to make the switch to solar power? And why did you decide to share your experience in this article,

Dick Bakker 02:52

It was a long process, I actually had to go back to 98 when the ice storm hit Eastern, Northeastern the US and Canada. At that time, I was working in the internet equipment business. And I watched the world stop and became fascinated with how it happened. And that caused a restart and an interest in energy that I had from the 70s during the oil crisis. And I found the electricity grid to be very similar to the telecom industry, then in oh three. So in 98, we were out of power here for seven days. People across the road had power, so we're okay, but we just didn't have power in our house. We just live with them. Then in Oh, three the trees in Ohio shut down North America again. And I couldn't believe that that could happen again. But at that time, Ontario was the last jurisdiction in North America to come back on stream fully. It took us almost four weeks for the whole province to come back. But Quebec was lit up okay. And they actually had bars on the hunt in the hall side looking at the lights going off in Ontario. But I asked myself why the heck is this. And I realized very quickly that it was because of our big nuclear plants. They're so big, and so rigid. The premier at the time couldn't get the citizens of Ontario to turn off their air conditioning units because of the heatwave we were in. And Quebec was unaffected. Well, why? And I learned it is the centralized nature of Ontario's power grid, and the lack of demand management that we have here. Because of that, anyway, I became fascinated with electricity regulations, and all of that. And that eventually led to me becoming part of the Ottawa renewable energy cooperative, where I learned through hard knocks the problems of the electricity system, the predatory protective regulations, and this new idea called distributed energy resources. Anyway, long and short, I finally realized that we needed to do something at home. And that came about eventually to us putting solar on the house when certain regulations changed. I wrote the article so that I could share my experiences of how the Ontario electricity system works, what we can do about it, and I wrote it for the local community newspaper, the VISTAs, I live in Alta Vista. And through my work at Oreck and my own interests in this house and making it more efficient and cheaper to run, I learned an awful lot and that information should be spread, I thought, okay, Dick,

Dan Seguin 05:24

In your article, you mentioned the challenges you and your neighbors face during the durational storm that hit Ottawa in 2022. And the tornado in 2018. How did these experiences influence your decision to invest in solar and other distributed energy resources specifically?

Dick Bakker 05:46

Well, specific? A lot. They were instrumental. So I've lived in this house for 30 years and Alta Vista, we've been out of power for longer than five days, four times. In the 98 ice storm, the 2003 trees in Ohio that fell over and shut down North America, 2018 Tornado, and the 2022 Derecho. And then there was also another big ice storm in the spring of 23. But we'll leave that aside, it didn't affect us too much. So after the 2022 Derecho, my neighbor and I were discussing what had happened, were both out for 10 days, and he was beside himself because he didn't have anywhere to go. They want to get off the grid completely. And he knew I was involved in the Ottawa, renewable energy cooperative, or Rec. And I told him, You can't go off grid because it's not worthwhile. It's not effective, you're getting a subsidized price of electricity, which didn't, he didn't like hearing that. But I said, you're just we're just not paying enough for our electricity. We're getting it so cheap, it doesn't make sense to put solar on your roof. Besides, we both had trees in our cell site. So that was then I explained to him the centralized nature of the grid. 60% of our power comes from three nuclear sites. Bruce Darlington and Pickering. Pickering being 14%. The pension funds like to invest in big centralized power plants, big shiny objects that the world can see. And the long lines that bring the power from way over there to our little corner is like a cash stream that the incumbents want to keep. They're not interested in distributed energy resources, or D are spread around. But that's where we should be going that time in 2022. Knowing what I knew of the regulations and the orientation of the provincial government, I couldn't see ever having the potential to put solar on your house. Sorry, I couldn't see the financial justification of putting solar on the house. And on top of that, the present government is subsidizing our electricity bills to the tune of 7 billion a year five and a half billion of that is going to general subsidies to the middle class and upper class not targeted to the poor. So at some point that's going to rise. The rating agencies will correct that by threatening to downgrade Ontario's credit rating but all that to say it's still subsidized, so it's not worth putting it on. Then in 2023, January, the Ontario government came out with some changes and started encouraging net metering and local generation.

Dan Seguin 08:28

Okay, now, did you also discuss the changing landscape of Ontario's electricity rules, specifically mentioning the Ontario Energy Boards directive in 2023? What changed that, in your opinion, helped to facilitate the adoption of solar power and what challenges still exist for homeowners today?

Dick Bakker 08:51

Thanks, Dan. That directive from the Ontario Energy Board and 23 was was a game changer for the province. I don't think they realize what potential they unleash them. So from 2018 When the Conservative government took power, they had a big grid only mentality. They wanted big power plants and long lines to deliver the power to the homes and the rules around net metering, which is the only way you can put solar on your house and stay connected to the grid. That's where you generate power, consume it yourself, and trade credits for your over summer for your summer overproduction for your winter consumption or purchases from the grid. So that pricing scheme was basically rigged against the homeowner because homeowners were forced to go to the tiered pricing scheme. So just on that situation, and up until 2023. Net metering wasn't very cost effective because of the pricing, but it could work. Technically, the grid acts as a battery so you're never out of power. So that rule kept me way from thinking of solar on my house. Also, I had trees to the south of the house. So the best place to put the solar panels wouldn't be productive. I don't want to cut the trees down, because that keeps my air conditioning costs low, and they're nice. But then in 23, the province changed the rules around net metering, and came up with an ultra low overnight rate. So the key thing about net metering, they said the local distribution companies would have to give the net metering customer the option to pick their rate class. So you go to a time of use rate if you wish. And then you get value for your time value of electricity. So if you're producing an high rate, you get the high rate in your credits. Okay, so that's good, then they came up with an ultra low overnight time of use rate, third rate class to encourage every user to charge at night, not during the evening dinnertime when everybody's turning on lights and eaters and all their devices. So they want to reduce consumption during the peak hour, and increase consumption at the low hour. And if you produce solar during the four to 9pm, period at 28 cents, that's what you pay, you get credits for 28 cents, that is much better economics for the homeowner, the end user and the solar producer. That's when I realized that my house was actually ideal because I've got a very low sloped roof. The South Side is full of trees, but the north side is clear. And the North side's going to produce more during the four to eight o'clock pm in the summertime at 28 cents. So one hour of that can offset 10 hours at the 2.8 cents for the low rate. So that was one thing. The other thing is I have an EV. We have heat pumps. We just installed a heat pump water heater, so I can time shift my consumption to the low overnight rate, I think it's pretty good. I still think the cost of electricity is going to rise more. So my return on investment is only going to improve because putting all of this in is an insurance policy against that rising cost of electricity. You also asked what are the continuing challenges? The challenges for solar? on the residential side are buildings and trees. How's the building built? Which way are the roofs pointing? Where are the trees? What kind of shading do they throw? But the good thing is that in the summertime, the sun is very high in Canada, so the sun will come straight down more or less. And in the wintertime when there's no snow on your roof. Or even if there's a little bit of snow on the roof. Solar production is marginally better because it's cold. So the physics is better. So there's still lots of opportunity for solar even in this cold northern climate. The challenges are of course buildings and trees to a certain point the supply chain there aren't enough installers, electricians to do all the work that should be done can be done hydro Ottawa, a staff just to get the installations done the upgrades for the grid. But hydro Ottawa needs Ottawa residents to spend this money on their own Diyar so that you can meet your new targets for the year. So I think people who do this on their own are doing it for themselves, but indirectly they're doing it for the betterment of the overall grid, driving down the cost of electricity. Solar does not drive up the cost of electricity when producing nuclear plants drives up the cost of electricity. Okay.

Dan Seguin 13:40

Could you maybe provide more details on the cost and capacity of your solar panel system? What were the economic aspects of your investment, including any government incentives or rebates that may have influenced your decision?

Dick Bakker 13:56

So in my specific installation, I have 37 panels in total. 24 of them are on the north slope and 13 panels on the south slope. So total DC kilowatt of 14.43. That's going through a nine kilowatt inverter. I have no panels on the south slope because there are three big trees there. If I had panels there, it would probably be a third smaller for the same generation. So over 12 months, I expect to generate about 10,246 kilowatt hours. That's 78% of 2020 two's consumption and my electricity consumption includes 90% of our driving because I have an Eevee and a plug in hybrid Evie 90% of our driving 100% of our cooling 40% of our heating a little more than 40% this year because it's a warm winter and 100% of our lights and appliances. So I've got a gas station on my roof and I've got a furnace on my roof effectively because of the ultra low overnight time of use rate. I am confident that with time shifting I can cover 100% of my electricity purchases, not my connection charges 100% of my electricity cost with something like 78% of my electricity kilowatts, because of the time shifting between ultra low and peak rate, the overall cost was $30,478 for the equipment, plus HST electricity upgrade to 200 amp service, some internal wiring changes, and I reached angled under the panels on the north and east, I didn't do the South because it doesn't quite need it effectively, I future proof my house for 30 plus years of electricity, I've given myself 30 years plus of electricity, price insurance and forced savings. And I predict that the credit rating agencies at some point will force the province to reduce the subsidies we're giving to the middle and the upper class and electricity costs. And that'll drive up the electricity rates a little bit, not massively, and I'll be protected from that. or whoever's living here because I'm getting old. So I think the house value of homes that have solar are going to hold their value better than a new kitchen cabinet or a new, new whatever that the new owner pulls out and replaces, you know, you're not going to be replacing solar on a roof if it's reducing your utility bills.

Dan Seguin 16:23

Okay, now our batteries, shifting your energy use away from daytime usage, or other distributed energy resources a consideration?

Dick Bakker 16:33

Well, that's a very good question, because the one thing I haven't done in the house yet is put a battery and a disconnect Island. And that's the next thing I'm going to look at during the summertime, I do these things one at a time to make sure they work and see how they operate. So the next thing will be a battery probably in the garage, if it's appropriate. And the not sure the proper technical term islanding device to allow me to operate separate from the grid. And if I ever buy another car, it'll be an Eevee with to a charging, so that I'll be able to charge my house and the battery over the course of the year, so the battery will be there for a disaster. But over the course of the year, I'll be able to draw power from the solar on the roof, and from the grid at the low rate stored and discharge it to the grid during the peak rate. So that makes my neighbor's grid a little more resilient. And in a crisis, I can be Island as opposed to the noisy gas generators that are sitting around my neighborhood.

Dan Seguin 17:37

Shifting gears a bit now as the director of the auto renewable energy cooperatives since its creation in 2009. Can you share how it works? And what are some of the projects that your coop has built?

Dick Bakker 17:54

Sure, certainly. So OREC is a for profit, renewable energy Co Op that enables residents of Ottawa to be restricted to Ontario by certain rules that I won't get into. So it allows residents of Ottawa and mostly Eastern Ontario but Ontario to benefit from distributed energy resources in their own region, we build our own renewable energy generation. Presently, solar and wind, energy conservation assets, commercial building, lighting installation, retrofit projects that keep the electrons jobs and profits local. So we have 22 solar systems in place now, most of them or the feed in tariff contracts. Three of them are net metering projects, one at the Museum of Science and Tech, two at the French Catholic High School Board, Mere Blue and Paul Desmarais. And then 18 other feed in tariff contracts where we have a contract to sell the power to the grid. At a net metering project. We sell the power to the building. Then we also have two wind projects down in southwestern Ontario and three energy retrofit projects. We had five but two of them have finished their contractor. So the solar projects are on housing coops, burns, schools, museums, factories, and two of them are I'd say medium sized ground mounts, 500 kilowatt ground mounts, the two wind projects. One is a 2.3 megawatt project at Tiverton, just outside of the Bruce nuclear plant and a little funny story I like to tell everyone is that the Bruce nuclear plant doesn't supply power to the neighborhood. All the electricity from Bruce nuclear goes to Toronto on the transmission lines because they connect it to the distribution grid and Temperton that blows all the light bulbs so they feed Toronto and then it trickles all the way back to Tim Burton. The wind project that we have outside of Tim Burton is a standalone turbine and it feeds the distribution grid. So should heaven forbid should Bruce nuclear go down? Some of the people will have electricity coming from our wind turbine. The people that are working at Bruce nuclear will have power at home, not because of the nuclear plant. The second wind turbine is an 800 kilowatt project in Zurich directly south of there. That's a wonderful area for wind. Most of the wind projects in that area are large projects owned by American pension funds, feeding Toronto, all of the power is going on the transmission lines. So getting back to Oh, Rick in general. So we have solar wind and lighting retrofits at the IRA center, condo, and housing coops. All of our projects are revenue generating with proven technologies and solid counterparties. So pretty comfortable with the security of those assets. The board is made up of pretty experienced people, engineers, lawyers, business development, accountants comms people. I'm a bit of a generalist. But I have worked in telecom and technical fields my whole life, not as an engineer, we have 980 members, 500 of them, about half of them have invested over $11 million in equity and debt in our project since we started. And we've paid dividends every year since 2013. When our first project came online, we had repaid to our members over 3.5 million in dividends, interest and capital repayment with very little outside debt, we'd rather pair members than banks, no offense banks, but we want to keep the money within the family within the community. Our main function is to act as an investment cooperative for our members. So we spend most of our time looking for projects to build and or buy, and then raise the community capital to build, operate, repeat, get more projects, raise more capital, pay out the dividends and capital. But we do have to spend an awful lot of money on advocacy work to change the regulations, or maintain whatever regulations are, to promote distributed energy resources of all types. But the second core function that we want to do more of is utilize the knowledge of our 1000 members and create them. It's happening already organically, but we want to have more regular information sessions between our members who are doing things like I just did. We have the largest concentration of any 1000 People in the Ottawa Valley in the province. I think of people who have D er installed in their homes. So we have a lot of end users, battery users, people with knowledge of heat pumps and stuff like that. So we are a group of friends with knowledge of the ER.

Dan Seguin 22:34

Okay now, Dick, when did things really take off with the co-op? And are members seeing dividends?

Dick Bakker 22:42

Well, that's a good question. Because the first offering that we raised was in 2012. And we didn't know how it was going to go, it actually went better than we expected, our minimum requirement was to raise half a million dollars. And in those nine weeks that we had, we raised $970,000, and more cash than we actually needed for what we had to do. And ever since then, we've we're now on our 10th Raise, each raise has gone better than expected. We've always raised more cash than we had projects at that time. So for a period there, we were building up too much cash and didn't have enough projects for them. So projects come more harder than the money or the members, the membership has grown very well. And the equity in the cooperative has been very good. And I'm also proud to say that we've paid dividends every year, since 2013. In the last couple of years, it's been 4%. We'd like it to be higher, but we've had to build everything from scratch without any outside cash. We've just started our latest raise, it's going to close on August 28, I believe. And we're looking for new members with new equity, and that equity can be RRSP or TFSA. It's an investment in the portfolio of 27 existing projects, and the new projects that we're going to be building in the coming year.

Dan Seguin 24:11

Now, let's talk about the changing relationship between electricity consumers and producers. How do you see this evolving in the coming years? And what role do you think individuals and communities will play in the broader energy transition?

Dick Bakker 24:32

This is going to be the biggest change in our society in the coming years. I think we're going to move from being ratepayers with very little agency beyond paying our bills and turning off lights to prosumers or producer consumers who have the ability to produce electricity for conservation, which is what I'm doing or for profit and or for profit when the regulations in Ontario Are you allow hydro Ottawa to buy excess power from homeowners? Right now you can't. So we'll be able to conserve and profit from our assets on our roof. And we'll also be able to actively manage our consumption, again for conservation and profit. So right now we're able to reduce our demand and shift our demand from peak load to low load. But in the future, I'm pretty sure that Ontario will follow California and New York and allow for aggressive demand response programs. And what we'd like to do at some point in the future, as OREC is allow our members to pool their batteries and solar panels and air conditioners, so that we can turn down consumption as the grid gets choked or or constrained. So we just saw what happened in Alberta, they had no demand management program, they turned down some gas plants for renovation in the peak of winter, and then they got hit with a big demand. During a cold period. The only way they got out of their problem was begging their customers to turn down their home heating systems. The citizens responded, but the downtown office towers left their lights on all night. That's absurd. So going forward, I think that the LDCs will be paying people to turn down their demand, because we need the grid to be balanced. We don't need excess generation or excess demand or under demand, we need everything balanced. So a megawatt is as good as a megawatt.

Dan Seguin 26:52

Okay, thank you for that, in your opinion now. What is the city or province doing well, and what improvements need to be made? Now you gotta behave?

Dick Bakker 27:04

I'll try to behave. How long do we have? I don't want to rant. But it's hard not to. On the city site. If there's a climate emergency act like there is one, people should not be buying coffee from an idling car. Housing is energy, stopping natural gas expansion. The Better Homes program is a wonderful program of the city. Because it addresses the upfront costs of retrofitting and DTR and solar and all those things. It ties that cost to a 20 year loan fixed to the House tax bill, not to the person. I'm 68. I may not be in this house for 10 years, I tend to be here longer, but my intention and reality may be different. So we need to have the cost of long term assets spread over years. The Better Homes program says that the city should be encouraging solar and small wind for resilience purposes. Every large group should have solar and there should be wind turbines scattered throughout Eastern Ontario, not just in rural areas in batches of 50. There should be a couple of wind turbines in urban Ottawa with the proper setbacks. That's the city in the province. Every month Ontario's paying out $1.3 billion in gasoline and diesel costs. There's lots of money for the energy transition. You just have to shift it around. Let the nuclear plants run their course, don't shut them down early, but don't pour money down a sinkhole. We just announced today Pickering expansion, well Pickering retrofit, it's the oldest nuclear plant in North America. The province is in a pickle because they know the nukes will be late. The small modular reactors aren't small modular. They are big reactors, they can only go on the transmission lines. That demand is all over the province at the end of the distribution lines where we live and work and EVs and heat pumps are so just let the nuclear plants slow down or wear out. The Donsky Report to the Independent Electricity systems operator said the lowest cost of new energy in the provinces D er of all types. It's just regulations that are stopping it and it makes the province more resilient. So the province can have every city have a similar program to Otto as the Better Homes program. Secondly, remove the Ontario electricity rebate that's putting $5.5 million dollars of taxpayer money into the pockets of people who leave their lights on and put that money instead in the distribution lines allow every kind of virtual net metering in the province especially community solar gardens so that citizens could own the solar on a swimming pool hockey rink. Any facility that is used for a disaster recovery facility should be generating power day to day and then have the ability to island in a crisis and resilience See should be the first order of the electricity grid, proper costs but resiliency and localized and generally liberalize the rules around generation and distribution. Okay,

Dan Seguin 30:10

Does the co-op or its members have an objective to promote or advocate for renewable energy and distributed energy resources in the community or with local governments? Yes,

Dick Bakker 30:23

In every way, as a co op, and with other coops for community scale projects, 100 kilowatt to one or two megawatt is the size of projects that is natural for us. That's the kind of thing that citizens are going to be interested in and seeing and owning, but we are going to work in the bigger projects on the transmission side, but we're advocating for that all the time, spend a lot more time helping our members to act as individuals with information and examples, the whole idea of friends with knowledge to get them to put in their own home systems. So yes, we spend way too much time advocating on behalf of the ER.

Dan Seguin 31:03

Okay, now, are you seeing your co-op's focus areas reflected in government policy, either municipally or provincially? How do you ensure your voices are heard?

Dick Bakker 31:17

We're starting to see a focus on D er, but I'm not yet seeing action, hard, hard action on the ER except for a few exceptions. Hydro Ottawa with the IESO is right now focused on solar DERs as a conservation measure, there's a bunch of regulations around it. I won't get into that right now. So that's good. And the dusky report and the ultra low time of use rate, those are all very good things. But today, they've just announced the massive expenditure on Pickering, which locks us further into the centralized focus of the province. The orientation of all electricity grids is to build big things far away that will break at some point. We're here in Ottawa, and we see all these federal buildings, there's only a few of them that have sold on them. The federal government doesn't do a good job of buying from small organizations like us. So we've had lots of discussions with the feds, but they want to do massive things that the reporters can write about. We're advocating as ourselves and with other coops nationally and provincially in every province, because that's where electricity and Co Op law resides. And we have formed a national association called the Community Energy cooperatives Canada, which is based in Saskatoon right now and has 25 coops from across the country. The fastest growing area of renewable energy coops in Canada is Alberta because they have the most liberalized power grid. So that'll be our national voice. But it'll be a voice at the federal and more importantly, at the provincial level, because that's where electricity lives. We work a lot with the European res Co Op, who have been very successful in Europe to get the EU to pass a directive that says every citizen of the EU has the right to own, operate, store, share, and save their own renewable electricity. So if we get the federal government to encourage that, all they can do is bribe, encourage and embarrass the provinces. If we could get the federal government to pass a directive like that. That's EU directive 2018 -201. If anybody's interested, we get that kind of directive from the federal government. That'll put pressure and embarrassment on the provinces to loosen up their grids. Alberta and Nova Scotia have moved the furthest along in this area, Ontario and Quebec and Manitoba and Saskatchewan are the big laggards but we have to move that way and oh wreck with our friends in the other coops can push that. We're all voters. We're all voting with our money and our ballots, and the last thing, banks will notice the difference.

Dan Seguin 34:03

Lastly, Dick, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions.Are you ready?

Dick Bakker 34:12

Yes, sir.

Dan Seguin 34:13

Okay, what are you reading right now?

Dick Bakker 34:16

Well, two books, one is called treeing energy by Bill Nussey. It's all about the wonderful economics of Home DER technologies. And the other is by my favorite author Guy Vanderhaeghe, August Into Winter. And not a book but fascinating about Saskatchewan and rural Saskatchewan and Manitoba crime scene set in 39. With the Spanish Civil War in the coming world war two is the backdrop. It's great.

Dan Seguin 34:44

What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?

Dick Bakker 34:47

There ain't no easy road. Those are the words of a song I love called Jericho by Fred Eagle Smith. My wife gave me a paddle with this phrase on it a few years ago as a birthday present.

Dan Seguin 34:59

Next, who is someone that you admire?

Dick Bakker 35:01

Peggy my, my wife, mother of my children, business partner, best friend and a no BS problem solver.

Dan Seguin 35:09

Okay? What was the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed

Dick Bakker 35:15

Birth of a child who grows into an adult who has a child. Now,

Dan Seguin 35:19

Now, as a result of the pandemic? Many of us are guilty of watching a little too much TV or movies. What is your favorite movie or show? What are you watching right now?

Dick Bakker 35:31

I'd have to say the Danish movie Borgan. It's a Danish TV series on politics and the trade offs and the personalities that shows the human side of difficult decision making. It's great.

Dan Seguin 35:46

Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?

Dick Bakker 35:51

Well, the electricity industry has got the possibility to democratize energy to revitalize communities and especially rural communities. So with renewables and DDR and cooperatives, we can keep the electrons' jobs and profits local. Okay,

Dan Seguin 36:10

Dick, our listeners, if they want to learn more about you, how do they connect?

Dick Bakker 36:15

Probably the best way is to go online and check. www.orec.ca or orec website.

Dan Seguin 36:24

This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Dick Bakker 36:33

I did. Thank you very much, Dan. It's wonderful.

Dan Seguin 36:37

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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We’ve spoken with many experts about electric vehicles (EVs) in Canada, covering everything from adoption trends to announcements, projects, and policies. This episode curates some of the most informative takeaways from these discussions. Envision Canada’s EV future with Daniel Breton of Electric Mobility Canada, Emma Jarratt of Electric Autonomy Canada, Cara Clairman of Plug’nDrive, and Loren McDonald of EVAdoption.

Related links

• Daniel Breton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-breton-b8a3b1a4/
• Electric Mobility Canada: http://https://emc-mec.ca
• Emma Jarratt on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-jarratt-ba552727/
• Electric Autonomy Canada: https://electricautonomy.ca/
• Cara Clairman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-clairman-84967318/
• Plug’nDrive: http://www.plugndrive.ca
• Loren McDonald on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorenmcdonald/
• EVAdoption: http://www.https://evadoption.com
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In today's podcast episode will focus on some of the most impactful conversations we had about electric vehicles EVs and Canada's mandate to make all light duty vehicles and passenger truck sales 100% zero emission by 2035. Interim electric vehicle targets include 20% of all vehicle sales by 2026 and 60% by 2030. If the stats are any indication, Canadians are getting on board according to s&p global, the share of the new registration of light duty zero emission vehicles in Canada in the third quarter of 2023 reached 13.3%, or one in eight new vehicles. This is up by 40% from the third quarter in 2022. There is no doubt that the federal government believes that zero emission vehicles are part of the solution to a stronger economy, cleaner air and healthier environment and good jobs. To facilitate this. We've all read about the factory announcements in 2023 that will develop a homegrown electric vehicle supply chain. There's Volkswagens 20 billion Ontario battery factory for turning its Oakville auto assembly plant into a 1.8 billion EV industrial park. There's the auto supplier Magna investing half a billion dollars into the EV supply chain right here in Ontario and Sweden's Northolt. Building a multimillion-dollar EV battery plant in Quebec. In today's episode, we're going to revisit some of the EV experts we've talked to on the show over the last couple of years and pull out the best nuggets of wisdom to share with you today. Our first highlight is with Daniel Breton from Electric Mobility Canada about what has spurred EV adoptions and the expected overall benefits to Canadians. What's been the most significant event innovation or policy that you think has changed the future trajectory for mass EV adoption for the better?

Daniel Breton 02:55

Well, I think there's not one thing in particular, you know, that has made it possible, I would say that's a growing, or it's a number of things. So obviously, battery technology has evolved quickly, over the past 1015-20 years. Just to give you an example, between 2008 to 2020. Volume density of the battery has grown eight-fold. So, when you look at batteries today you can have a lot more capacity. And a battery now than you had five years ago, 10 years ago, and it's going to keep growing as time goes by a lot of people seem to think that if you have let's say, a 60-kilowatt hour battery, it's going to be four times the size than a 15-kilowatt hour battery from let's say 2010. Actually, it's not the case at all. It's just that it has more capacity, and smaller volume per kilowatt hour, meaning that actually weight has not increased as fast as capacity. So, to me, that's very important. The other thing is that infrastructure, infrastructure deployment and infrastructure evolution has made a big difference. Just to give you an example. 10 years ago, the average electric car had 120 kilometers of range. Now it's 450. So, in 10 years, it's quadrupled. At the same time, 10 years ago, if you wanted to charge your electric car, there were hardly any fast chargers on the road. So, for example, when I was working in Montreal that I had to go to the National Assembly, I could not buy an electric car, I had to buy a plug-in hybrid electric car, because there was no fast charger but between Montreal and Quebec, that's 10 years ago. Now, if you go five years ago, a fast charger had a 50-kilowatt charger So that meant that we went from charging 120 kilometers of range in about four or five hours to charging 120 kilometers of range in about half an hour. And now with new fast chargers, you know, you know, going from 50 kilowatt to 150-kilowatt, 250 kilowatt and even 350 kilowatts, you can charge 120 kilometers of range in 10 minutes. So, things have accelerated regarding the technology of infrastructures as well. Education is making a big difference because more and more people are interested in EVs. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done. I'm often surprised to hear the same questions I was being asked 5-10-15-20 years ago regarding battery life, for instance. But I still do get those questions on social media and even sometimes on regular media.

Dan Seguin 06:03

I've got a follow up question here for you. What are some of the overall benefits as a nation when we reach 100% EV passenger sales by 2030, and all other vehicles by 2040?

Daniel Breton 06:18

Well, I would say that the first benefit is lower emissions is going to make a hell of a difference. Because you know, a lot of people say that GHG emissions from transportation represent 24% of Canada's total GHG emissions. But that's only downstream emissions. When you add upstream emissions, it's 30%, meaning that transportation is the number one source of GHG emissions in Canada. But that's huge emissions, so lowering them by I would say 50 to 80%, because you have to keep in mind that you have GHG emissions from electricity production, although it's getting much better. I mean, the last coal plant is going to close next year in Alberta. And, Nova Scotia intends to go. I think it's 80% renewable by 2030. So as time goes by, electric vehicles become cleaner and cleaner because the grid is becoming clearer and cleaner. So that's one thing. But the other thing, which is super important, and people seem to forget, is that according to Health Canada, they released a report on the impact of air pollution last year, the economic cost of air pollution is estimated at $120 billion, not millions, billions 100 $20 billion from air pollution, and that's 15,300 premature deaths, which is eight times the death toll of car accidents. So,­­ if we bring more electric vehicles on the road, it's going to significantly lower air pollution, whether it's from light duty vehicles, or medium or heavy duty vehicles. So it's going to save billions of dollars to Canadians, help our healthcare system and save 1000s of lives. I mean, this is not insignificant. This is very important. And this is something I think that needs to be said. And last but not least jobs. I've been talking about this, believe it or not, I've been coming to the House of Commons because from where I am, I can see the House of Commons right here because I'm in debt note this morning. I started to talk about the EV industry about 15 or 16 years ago to the federal government saying that we need to transition our automotive sector from gas to electric because that's where the industry is going. So, there was really not much of any interest for years. But now the federal government has really caught on, I have to salute Minister Chabang for his leadership on this particular issue to make sure to attract EV assembly, battery assembly, battery manufacturing, critical minerals strategy. So, we are seeing a real shift. I mean, you have to keep in mind that between 2020 and 2020 light duty vehicle production in Canada has been going down and down and down time and time again. We went from being the fourth biggest manufacturer in the world to not even be at the top 10 in 2020. Now because the federal government, the Ontario government, the Quebec government and other Canadian governments are investing more and more on the EV supply chain in the EV industry. We are seeing a revival of the automotive sector in Ontario. And to me this is significant. And if we hadn't done this, there will not be an automotive sector by 2030 or 22. 35 So this is huge.

Dan Seguin 10:02

On this topic of investments. I had the pleasure of speaking with Emma Jarrett, the Executive Editor of Electric Autonomy Canada. She's extensively covered Canada's grown EV manufacturing, infrastructure and battery sectors. Here's what Emma had to say on the topic. There's been a lot of news and announcements made recently. Can you talk about what stands out for you as the most notable electric vehicle projects or initiatives currently underway in Canada that you're excited about? And maybe why?

Emma Jarrett 10:37

Sure. So, I think everyone stops and takes an extra pause, when you hear there's a factory worth billions and billions of dollars going in. And that's, you know, maybe the third or fourth announcement of that type you've heard in a few months, it's really quite remarkable. The industry that's been attracted by the new investments that are coming into Canada, it's almost unprecedented. So, to see that play out, in real time to get to cover it, you know, it's a privilege. It's very interesting for me, I learn a lot every single day. And I think that, you know, the bird's eye view of the situation is that this is a real moment. And in our history, we're building a supply chain in this country that we've never had before. And it's going to be very interesting when we're looking back on it to see what kind of a fork in the road it represents for Canada that we seize this opportunity. What I'm most excited about with the announcements is the supply chain as a whole and decarbonizing that. So, it's great that we have factories that make batteries. But it would be better if they were all powered by non-emitting electricity. And it would be fantastic if the trucks that brought the refined minerals to those factories to go into the batteries were zero emission trucks, and the mining vehicles that pulled the minerals out of the ground. Were all electric. That to me is the big piece of this, you know, the whole supply chain needs to be decarbonized.

Dan Seguin 12:06

Okay, Emma, at the 2023 Federal Budget announced billions of tax credits and financing to attract investments in manufacturing, energy and tech sectors. Can you unpack some of the highlights that stood out for you in the budget as it relates to electric mobility or maybe clean energy?

Emma Jarrett 12:26

Sure. So, the big question with this year's budget was, how is it going to respond to the United States inflation Reduction Act, which was, you know, a $369 billion omnibus bill? And, you know, is it is going to squash Canada flat, we just don't have that kind of economic power at that scale. So, when the budget came out this year, I think everyone was very surprised and tentatively impressed if, if it rolls out the way some of the politicians are saying it will, that for the EV industry, and the clean tech, you know, you can, we can go toe to toe with the US using $55 billion, which is, you know, less than a quarter than what the US is, is spending. So that was just interesting. And I don't know enough about economic gymnastics to be able to say one way or the other if this is going to be a success, but it's an interesting strategy. And I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Aside from the IRA maneuvers, I was really pleased to see a new tax credit come up for decarbonization of Canada's grids $25.7 billion in tax credits to move towards sustainable, renewable, in most cases, sources of energy. And as an extension of that also smart peak management, you know, with battery storage and better load prediction and understanding. I think that's really important.

Dan Seguin 14:00

Now your coverage and knowledge of the electric mobility industry is extensive. What are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 targets?

Emma Jarrett 14:14

We have a very long way to go. I don't think we can pretend otherwise. The steps that are being taken are encouraging. But this is a really, really big shift to turn. I think the targets are possible to meet. I don't think they were unreasonable or pie in the sky. I really do think that it is achievable whether or not it happens who can say, I hope so. And I think that whenever I hear somebody saying, you know, being pushed too fast, or they're naysaying the targets, I go, okay, fair, but can you tell me what you think the alternative is to not meeting them? We're looking at a pretty stark future environmentally if action is not taken, and I am was of the opinion that some action is better than sitting there and doing nothing.

Dan Seguin 15:03

I couldn't agree more with Emma. Okay, moving on. In this next clip, I speak to Cara Clairman, President and CEO of Plug'n'Drive, who shared her perspective on the barriers that still exist to consumers, choosing EVs and the role municipalities play in moving this needle. Here's what Cara had to say when I asked what the main barriers are to EV ownership.

Cara Clairman 15:36

Okay, well, there's lots of barriers still remaining, although we're making lots of good progress. We did a survey about four years ago. And I think the results probably would hold true today as well, asking people about what was preventing them from choosing an electric vehicle. And actually, the number one barrier was price, which surprised us. We expected people to say range or lack of public infrastructure or something like that. But three to one, they actually said, they thought EVs were too expensive. And so, we know that the upfront sticker price is a problem for people, it is still a bit more expensive than the equivalent gas car. What people don't really know is that the total cost of ownership of an EV, even at today's prices is less. But it's always a challenge to help people understand you're going to pay more now and save later. And we have to help people see the advantage of doing that. So, I would say you know, cost and then also education because you have to help people understand that total cost of ownership over time. And actually, to help consumers on that specific point, we've, we've put a really great new tool on our website called 'Find your EV match', which really helps you see the total cost of ownership for electric vehicles income, and you can even compare an EV to your existing gas car that you currently drive and see your monthly savings. And so, this is a really, really important point. I would also say, of course, you know, we do need more infrastructure, and there still is some range hesitancy concern, but I really believe that the range issue is going away as an issue as the battery technology improves. And of course, as public infrastructure improves,

Dan Seguin 17:29

It would seem that municipalities across Canada have a large part to play to support the government's mandate, and to make charging stations more accessible. In your experience. Has this been the case? What's your view on the role municipalities play in the electrification of transit?

Cara Clairman 17:46

Yeah, municipalities do have an important role to play and I think they are starting to recognize it more and more. So, for example, one role that municipalities are playing and it's proving really important is in terms of standards for multi-unit buildings. So for example, a municipality can require a certain green standard for condos or multi-unit buildings being built in their in their territory and that will ensure that the you know roughing is there for the plugs in future and that new buildings will get built with you know, with the ability or sort of EV ready to help their citizens because let's face it, especially in the Greater Toronto Area, a lot of people live in multi-unit and we need to make it possible for these people to plug in there's other roles they can play for example, we're seeing a lot of municipalities set up you know their own EV policies for their you know, for public parking, for example, street parking for for different, making certain municipal lots available for charging. There's lots of ways that municipalities can help and there are, you know, through the associations, there's sharing I know of EV policies across municipalities that don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Dan Seguin 19:10

No need to reinvent the wheel. I love this good pun. Now. Last, but certainly not least, is my interview with the EV evangelist himself, Loren McDonnell of EV Adoption. Loren has spent decades analyzing trends in EVs and charging technology. He joined me on the show to share his thoughts and had some surprising and insightful things to say. What has been the most important or significant recent event in your opinion, that will positively change the future for electric vehicles?

Loren McDonald 19:50

I would say there's sort of two things that are kind of closely connected. One is the Ford F 150 Lightning, as you as you both probably know, you know, and pickups are pretty popular and candidate as well. But you know, the F 150, the regular F 150 internal combustion engine has been the top selling vehicle, not just pickup, but the top selling vehicle of any type in America, and actually the world for 40 straight years. And so the fact that this sort of mainstream popular vehicle, a pickup truck is actually and it's being delivered. Now the first deliveries are starting, like this week of the electric version is, I've called it this the game changer, the single most important EV in history, right? And you could make arguments for lots of different ones for different reasons, right. But I think, to go mainstream, this signals to those people in the Midwest as an example. Oh, I guess this isn't just for wealthy, you know, granola eating people in California. This is a work truck, this is, you know, this is actually acceptable. And the second part of it, obviously, which you know, we'll talk a bit about more later, I'm sure your the bi directional charging capability is sort of an eye opener. And then the last thing I would say is just sort of gas prices, right. And so, gas prices, again, which I know we'll talk about some more, may make people more aware of alternatives to the internal combustion engine. And so EVs are kind of having their moment right now, because of that.

Dan Seguin 21:41

Okay. Now, time to leave it all on the floor. What is something you want the average combustion engine car owner to know about EVs, that maybe they don't already know, Loren gloves off, go for it.

Loren McDonald 21:59

Really, I think pretty, pretty simple that charging your electric vehicle is more like having to charge a smartphone than how you feel your gas car. Right. And just to expand briefly on that is, you know, get most consumers there, their perception is that refueling and recharging an EV is the same as going to a centralized gas station and stuff. And it's not till you own one, and experience it and drive it a lot that you realize, no, it's actually more like a smartphone where you know, you, you know, put it in your bed stand and plug it in, you wake up in the morning, and it's recharged or whatever. And that's the same thing with your EV. Assuming you have access to home charging, right? Go into the garage plugin, wake up and it's charged. And, you know, the, the, the nuance to that is, is that and I've got this amazing chart that I that I use in presentations that shows like a fuel gauge, for you know, like most consumers, when they drive a gas car, what do they do, they drive the car down to empty quarter of a tank, below empty, whatever they're comfortable with. And then they pull into a gas station and fill it up to fall. And you know, this, Dan, that's not how you refuel an electric vehicle, you replenish what you use, right? So, if you drive 30 miles today, you plug in and you replenish that third, and maybe actually even don't, maybe you wait a couple of days, right? You drive it down, and then you do it right, it sort of depends on your comfort zone. The only time through refueling experience for an EV is analogous to a gas car is when you go on those road trips, right? And those either so you know, weekend one or a long road trip, and then you do have to do that centralized thing. But otherwise, I think this is the single biggest educational hurdle that we have because it's not something you can explain to people. They actually have to like the experience to then the light bulb goes, Oh, yeah, this is like my smartphone.

Dan Seguin 24:12

And there you have it. Wise words from our guest, Loren McDonnell, the EV evangelists. Sometimes changing our mindset can help make you see things in a new light. And that's our show for today. If you like what you heard, feel free to revisit the full episodes featuring our renowned EV experts. We'll include links in the show notes so you can find these episodes and guests you're most interested in. And of course, don't forget to subscribe. Again. Thank you for joining me today as this sector and topic continues to evolve and grow. I for one, as a longtime EV owner, I am excited to see what the near future holds for Canada and for consumers. Until next time, thank you for listening to thinkenergy podcast. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Waterpower is Canada’s most abundant renewable resource, providing 60 per cent of our electricity. But here’s the big question: as Canada looks to an emissions-free future, how can waterpower, one of the oldest power sources on the planet, help us get there? And what do we need to consider? To learn more about our hydroelectric future, we sat down with Gilbert Bennett, President and CEO of WaterPower Canada. Tune in.

Related links

• Gilbert Bennett on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gilbert-bennett-86166529/
• WaterPower Canada: https://waterpowercanada.ca/
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So, join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, Happy New Year and welcome back. Here's a fun fact. Canada's electricity sector is one of the cleanest in the world when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions. Now today, we're going to focus on one of the oldest power sources on the planet. Hydropower generates power when flowing water spins a wheel or turbine. It was used by farmers as far back as ancient Greece for mechanical tasks like grinding grain. Canada's oldest hydroelectric generating station that still is in operation today was commissioned right here in Canada's nation's capital in 1891. Generating Station Number 2 is located on Victoria Island in the heart of downtown Ottawa is a stone's throw away from Parliament Hill. It's been providing clean, renewable electricity for more than 130 years. While hydroelectricity first powered our great city and country, it was fossil fuels that quickly became the dominant energy source during the Industrial Age of the 20th century, until nuclear power arrived on the scene in the early 1960s. Now, because Canada is a water rich country, it's not surprising that our water power is our most abundant renewable resource, providing 60% of our country's total electricity. That means six out of every 10 homes in Canada are powered by water. This makes Canada the third largest generator of hydroelectricity in the world, after China and Brazil. To reduce Canada's emissions of greenhouse gasses that cause climate change, we must continue to increase the amount of zero emissions electricity we produce and strategically reduce our reliance on fossil fuels in other sectors. So here is today's big question. Can one of the world's oldest renewable power sources play a major role in Canada's Net Zero future? So, joining us today on the podcast is Gilbert Bennett. He is the president and CEO of WaterPower Canada, founded in 1998. WaterPower Canada is the national nonprofit trade association dedicated to representing the water power industry. Gilbert, welcome to the show.

Gilbert Bennett 03:21

Good morning, Daniel. Great to be here.

Dan Seguin 03:23

Now, you've joined WaterPower Canada at a very interesting time where there's a lot of national and international conversations about developments in hydroelectricity, as countries strive to meet their net zero targets. What is your vision on how water power Canada can participate in Canada's energy transformation and decarbonization?

Gilbert Bennett 03:49

So, we at WaterPower Canada represent the Canadian hydro electric industry, so the owners and operators were the vast majority of the Canadian hydropower fleet. So all the major utilities are members of the association. And we also have our industry partners that design manufacturing constructs for the industry. So given the hydropower provided, over 60% of Canada's electricity supply is going to be the backbone of the electricity industry for decades to come. Our role is to make sure that industry, governments, and the federal government, in particular, understand the important role that we play in the electricity system, and why hydropower is a key advantage of building a renewable future for Canada. So we're going to be aware that we're the dominant renewable supply for the Canadian electricity system. We have important value that's provided in terms of reliability. And I guess the ability to integrate other renewables in the system. So, we're going to be here for decades. We're going to be playing a major role in that transformation and the decarbonization of our economy.

Dan Seguin 04:57

Now, what's the value proposition that hydroelectric power brings to a clean, affordable and NetZero future?

05:07

Right. So, most importantly, we have key attributes. And I sort of touched on that in our last question there, we're firm and reliable. So, think about hydropower, just firm generation, there's water in the reservoir, we're going to be producing power at the power plant. It's not a question of is the wind blowing, is the sun shining? It's long term, high capacity, firm generation. And when I think about high-capacity storage for hydropower, in larger, the larger hydro systems, we're talking about 1000s of megawatts of power generation, delivered for months on end with large reservoir storage. So that's an important attribute that contributes to the reliability of our Canadian electricity system. And secondly, is dispatchable. So, we can adjust output of the plant as necessary to meet needs as they change your day to day order in order to balance out the deliveries from other renewables. So, in the absence of a fossil fuel fleet, hydropower with those capabilities is really important for us to maintain reliability and deliveries on our electricity system.

Dan Seguin 06:18

Gilbert, some people still believe that investments in renewable energy translate to higher electricity costs. But I read on your website that provinces with the highest hydropower installed capacity have the lowest electricity costs, perhaps you can break down why that is and what you think the public should know about hydropower that they may not already know.

Gilbert Bennett 06:48

So, if we look at the provinces of Canada with the highest installed base hydropower, they have facilities that were built with large scale capacity and large-scale storage, and they were built in the 60s and 70s. And they still operate reliably today. So, we look back to sort of the major construction that happened in the Canadian hydropower sector. Several decades ago, those long-term reliable assets are now producing really low cost energy, a lot of financing has been addressed from those facilities, and they have low operating costs, the cost of maintaining those facilities is, is a lot lower than the cost of building new ones today. So those those legacy assets are really important contributors to the low rates, we see in the, what I'll call the hydro dependent jurisdictions.

Dan Seguin 07:37

Very insightful. Thanks, Gilbert. Now, I know water power, Canada has commissioned some research projects. Can you maybe talk about some of those, and what makes them important to your sector and your goals?

Gilbert Bennett 07:53

So those studies, and there were four of them that were completed through last year with important financial support from Natural Resources Canada, and fortunately, they address some important topics to discuss hydropower in general. So, the first one deals with this question that we just talked about, what's the role that hydropower facilities play in ensuring reliable service for customers. So now we're getting into some technical points, inertia load, following regulation, frequency and voltage control. So those are things that customers don't think about and don't have to worry about, because they're really important questions or system operators, the people who manage and operate electricity grids. So, it's important for policymakers who are drafting the rules through the electricity sector to understand that these capabilities are essential to delivering reliable service. And in the absence of fossil generation, delivering those capabilities to a large extent is going to fall to the hydro fleet. It's important to understand the services that are uniquely provided by hydro facilities, some of the variable renewables don't have these capabilities. And the services that are provided by the hydro fleet are going to be much more important in the future as we retire the fossil fuel fleet across Canada. So that's, that's the first one. The second study looked at the potential for pumped storage hydro in Canada. And that's a topic that we haven't talked about a lot. It's a mature technology that's used in many places in the world. But with our conventional hydropower fleet here in Canada, we haven't had to worry about too much, but it is becoming an issue as a way to store energy from variable renewables and make it available when needed factor projects under consideration in Ontario. Today, there are two major projects in Ontario, one led by OPG and Northland power, and the TC energy's project in Georgian Bay is another one that probably would be familiar to listeners in Ontario for sure. There are also projects in Alberta. They're looking at that technology. So potential for pump storage as a large-scale storage opportunity to firm up variable renewables. It's an important topic elsewhere in the world. And it's one that we thought would be useful to highlight attention here in Canada. Third study looks at the potential for updating our existing facilities to increase the output of those facilities. So, we've identified 1000s of megawatts of potential that can be realized by replacing the existing turbines and generators and existing plants. So, the point here is that we're using existing dams, reservoirs and structures, while updating the technology inside the plant. So that's a cost-effective way to increase the efficiency of the plant or to increase capacity on the grid. And then finally, the last report looks at the cost of energy from previous generation sources. And we introduced the point here that variable renewables are inexpensive energy sources, but there are additional costs that will be incurred in the electricity systems making them dispatchable and available. And those are, those are features that are built into hydro generation. So, we want to raise the point here that the grid services that I talked about a second ago, need to be factored in when we're comparing various generation sources. So these points are really important for policymakers to understand, well, they're drafting the rules for the industry, and ultimately, for the services that our customers are gonna be relying on. Lots and lots of detail there. And if anybody's interested in taking a look at those reports, are all posted on our website at waterpowercanada.ca.

Dan Seguin 11:28

Okay, I really like this next question here. What are some projects and innovations that you're seeing from your members that you feel may usher in a new era for waterpower?

Gilbert Bennett 11:42

I think we look back at our aspirational goal in Canada to be net zero by 2050. So, talk about that on a fairly regular basis. Various experts have said that we'll need to double our electricity supply to achieve that goal. So just think about that for a second 25 or 30 years, we're going to rebuild the industry that's taken 125 years to build the infrastructure Canada that we have today. So, you know, that's a daunting challenge. And I think it'd be the first sign of the scale of that effort is probably from Hydro Quebec, where they've indicated that they plan to spend somewhere between 155 and $185 billion dollars on their electricity system between now and 2035, in order to set the stage and Quebec to be net zero by 2050. That level of investment, that scale of development of their electricity system, I think is a huge one. And it's one that if we're going to achieve our or aspirational goal is going to be replicated in multiple jurisdictions when we look at significant investments required to set the stage to electrify our economy. So that in itself is a, you know, is a hugely important error for I see the electricity sector in general, feel comfortable saying that water power is going to be an important piece of that.

Dan Seguin 13:07

Now, if memory serves me right, your organization released a collection of success stories of partnerships between utilities, energy companies, indigenous businesses, and organizations affiliated with First Nations. Gilbert, what can you tell us about the path forward? And its intersection is clean energy and reconciliation?

Gilbert Bennett 13:34

Right. So that report, branding indigenous businesses is also on our website. And it's a collection of case studies from members from our member companies that provide concrete examples of how WaterPower Canada member companies are working with indigenous businesses, First Nations, both as partners and owners and developers of projects. So, I think in the context of reconciliation, it should be fairly clear that projects and activities that happen on traditional land should benefit people who you know, who own that land. And here we have some specific examples of how things can be done and are being done to benefit indigenous communities and businesses. So, it's the way we need to move forward with development. It's an opportunity to work together, it's an opportunity to jointly understand issues, opportunities, challenges with projects, and to really come to a common understanding of how to do business together, both between, you know, our member companies and indigenous communities, important step forward. And I think the way things are going to be done in the future.

Dan Seguin 14:43

Okay, moving on to some challenges. It seems that the International Energy Agency expects hydropower generation to increase 50% by 2040. Is the hydropower sector, like many, having difficulty attracting new talent? What are the ways your sector is working to entice youth to consider hydroelectricity to keep up with the growing demand?

Gilbert Bennett 15:14

So, this is a huge challenge for not just our industry, but the Canadian economy in general, we have a retiring workforce, as our population ages. And we're not replacing people across multiple sectors in our economy. Certainly, an issue in the trades for construction and operations. So, a concern in engineering is a concern in most professions, that we're not replacing our workforce. And for our industry, we have a couple of associations that are really focused on this question. So, shout out for electricity, Human Resources, Canada here, they are playing a key role in highlighting opportunities, and reasons why people who are entering the workforce, you know, should look at a career in our sector. It's a common theme from trade unions to say, look, you know, here are these unionized positions, and the trades and the construction trades. And then the operating trades are high paying jobs, they have great working conditions. And they're a great way to build people's career. And it's probably something that we haven't talked about for a long time. These are ways to highlight opportunities in the industry, apprentice programs on projects are another way to highlight opportunities to get people entering the workforce. And then finally, you can link back to our discussion on indigenous communities where training, education, employment opportunities associated with projects are available for residents in nearby communities. But that's as most project developers today would look at that as a key way to both build workforce, and to build economic capability in the, in the communities where they're doing work. It's a big challenge. And we certainly have to, you know, find ways to get people into the trains to get things done. We're going to be talking about this one a lot.

Dan Seguin 17:04

Now, I'm curious to find out what makes our hydropower unique, isn't our production generation water rich reserves, or our cold climate that sets Canada's hydropower apart from other countries?

Gilbert Bennett 17:20

So, first of all, we look at the resource that we have, we have 7% of the world's renewable freshwater. So, 7% of the water that falls on the face of the planet, lands in Canada, and we have 5% of the world's population. So those were important to have the raw resources in the first place. So that certainly we have that in spades, but also the large landmass, we have favorable topography for hydropower sites, so the right to the terrain and most of Canada is favorable to hydropower development. We're a large country with a small population, but lots of water. So, we have a great resource. And I think that that's probably the key reason why we've, you know, got to where we are.

Dan Seguin 18:08

Okay, that's good, Gilbert. Now, do you expect hydropower to remain Canada's largest source of reliable, renewable power for the foreseeable future? What is something you want the government to know right now about how investing in hydroelectricity can help it achieve its netzero goals?

Gilbert Bennett 18:32

Okay, so the first, the first most important point is that the attributes of your hydropower fleet, the technical capabilities are really important in continuing to ensure that electricity, services for customers are reliable, cost effective and renewable. Now, our future is going to be all in with every non emitting and renewable option. So hydro, wind, solar, nuclear, hydrogen, all of these alternatives to fossil fuels, and others are going to be critical for us to achieve our net zero, or near zero aspiration. Hydro today is the backbone of our fleet. It has important services, and it's important to glue the rest of the system together. So that's probably the most important point and then we would say that development of hydropower facilities are long term investments, they have long term development cycles. So we need to be able to find ways to move forward with project approvals with upgrades with expansions you know that deliver low cost service to customers. Now we also recommend with note that our generator members are either major utilities or their producers themselves. So, getting the maximum value from our assets is going to be really important as well and the industry is going to continue to look at existing assets to see how we can get more out of those. So that may be increasing the capacity of sites using, you know, improving efficiency, being strategic about where you know where projects get built. And then finally understanding where hydro fits compared to other technologies. And there's a given that there will be opportunities for those other technologies to play important roles in this electricity system as well. When we look at sort of doubling the electricity system, there's going to be a lot of investment all around. And I think what we would say is that, you know, back to the fundamental point, hydropower is the backbone of the generating fleet in Canada. And it provides, you know, key services that are going to be needed now, well into the future.

Dan Seguin 20:35

Finally, Gilbert, we always end our interviews with some rapid-fire questions. We've got some new ones for you. Are you ready?

Gilbert Bennett 20:44

Let's go. Okay.

Dan Seguin 20:46

What are you reading right now?

Gilbert Bennett 20:48

Nothing on the bookshelf today. So, I will say the last binge read I had was on vacation last summer, and it would have been one of Tom Clancy novels.

Dan Seguin 20:57

Okay, good. Now, Gilbert, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?

Gilbert Bennett 21:04

I don't. We don't have one. This one is a standing family joke. The name of the boat would be Ylime, which is my daughter Emily's name spelled backwards. That's a standing joke for a while with the family.

Dan Seguin 21:18

Here's another question, Gilbert. Who is someone that you truly admire?

Gilbert Bennett 21:23

All right, so let's look back in history to someone who dealt with challenges on a similar scale to what we're talking about now. And I think I'd have to look to maybe someone like General Leslie Groves, from the Manhattan Project. So those of you have seen Oppenheimer would have a pretty clear handle about how he got things moving to that project.

Dan Seguin 21:46

Okay, moving on here. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Gilbert Bennett 21:52

Oh wow. Okay, so I'm an electrical engineer. So, some real things are more like magic to a lot of people. I would say for me, 15 years of effort of the Muskrat Falls project in Labrador, close to the breaker to put the first unit online, looks like magic after all that effort.

Dan Seguin 22:11

What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Gilbert Bennett 22:18

Oh, well, I would say switching from a large office setting to a virtual team. And you know, of course, during my time on the Muskrat Project, we had, you know, 300 people on our team, and you're interacting with them on a daily basis. And now you go to a virtual team, and you're doing pretty well, everything like we're doing here today remotely. That was a major adjustment for me.

Dan Seguin 22:40

Okay. Now, we've all been watching a little more TV, a little more Netflix. What is your favorite show? Or series?

Gilbert Bennett 22:49

Oh, I just got through the last season of Slow Horses on Apple TV. So Misfits, that and MI five, who find a way to get things done. It was a pretty, pretty enjoyable series for me.

Dan Seguin 23:03

Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?

Gilbert Bennett 23:08

Oh, wow. I would say in a nutshell, everything. Sort of the scope, the scale, the challenges, the opportunities that we've talked about, I think are all are all exciting, and helping to, you know, find a way to retool our, our entire society so that it runs on renewables, I think is a huge is a huge challenge. And it was definitely pretty exciting.

Dan Seguin 23:30

Well, Gilbert, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?

Gilbert Bennett 23:42

Oh, two ways. Visit our website waterpowercanada.ca. And we're on LinkedIn as well. So follow the association. And keep up with what's going on in the industry.

Dan Seguin 23:54

Again, Gilbert, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.,

Gilbert Bennett 23:59

Oh this was great. It was great to be with you Daniel. Thanks so much.

Dan Seguin 24:06

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Ice storms, blizzards, and high winds can all lead to extended power outages, turning bad weather into a crisis for those affected. And Canada has had several intense cold weather events in recent years. In part 2 of mitigating the impacts of winter, experts Guy Lepage, Canadian Red Cross Disaster Management Volunteer, Julie Lupinacci, Chief Customer Officer at Hydro Ottawa, and Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions, share how to prepare for a winter disaster.

Related links

● Guy Lepage on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289

● Julie Lupinaccii on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/juliejlupinacci

● Jim Pegg on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jim-pegg-4b588b17

● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

● Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/

● Envair Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/

● Hydro Ottawa emergency preparedness: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/emergency-preparedness

● Canadian Red Cross emergency preparedness and recovery: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada/be-ready-emergency-preparedness-and-recovery/

● Envari electric vehicles and infrastructure: https://envari.com/electric-vehicle-infrastructure/

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

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http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Welcome back, everyone. And thank you for joining us for part two of our winter highlight reel, where we revisit clips from previous interviews discussing the unique impact our Canadian winters have on our energy sector. Although Canadians are accustomed to cold and snowy winters, Recent years have brought more intense weather events into the mix. From heavy snowfall to ice storms to bone chilling subzero temperatures, these factors are driving the need for emergency preparedness and protocols to ensure public safety. Whether you're snugged at home or navigating the elements during your commute, utility companies like hydro Ottawa are pushing for increased reliability of their system. The goal is to keep your power on and keep you informed before, during and after outages. This commitment also extends to supporting the growing presence of electric vehicles on the road, emphasizing reliability in electric transportation. In our first clip, I spoke to Guy Lepage, a volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross disaster management, he sheds light on how the Red Cross provides support for those who may face devastating experiences. Let's dive into this conversation. Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters. I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters. What is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?

Guy Lepage 02:17

House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times people leave stuff on the stove and it spreads. Fire starts to spread, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assess the family to make sure they have lodging, they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And we're an emergency service, so after three days, people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any kind of disaster and and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building gets evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter in a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.

Dan Seguin 04:29

Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes?

Guy Lepage 04:42

I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you leave something unattended and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where indeed, mom and dad and three kids living in an apartment, and one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out, get out. So we responded, they went to a friend's location, so we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has to sit on her face because of the fire. And she starts crying and teardrops are rolling down through her soot stained cheeks and I'll always remember that image, because she was crying because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches, cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis, we will of course, but if you can prevent it, that's even better.

Dan Seguin 06:21

Okay. so next up, speaking on the topic of extreme weather, and preparing for emergencies. I have a clip from my interview on what electricity customers want with Julie Lupinacci, Hydro Ottawa's Chief Customer Officer. Julie speaks to how Hydro Ottawa is actively working on leveraging advanced technologies in order to improve communications during crisis situations. When customers are out of power, she also shares some key things to focus on when preparing an emergency kit for your family. Here's what Julie had to say. We are all aware that Ottawa has had some major, major weather events these past five to six years. What would you say to customers that are worried about reliability, power outages, and restoration?

Julie Lupinacci 07:19

Yeah, weather events have been tough. They're tough fun. And I don't think Ottawa has seen something like this in a very long time, like probably since the '98 ice storm and I'm not even sure that really measured up to the same impact right of what we saw and what customers dealt with. But what I would say is Hydro Ottawa has put a lot of focus on what we need to do from a grid perspective to adapt to the changing climate that we're seeing here in Ottawa. And that includes those weather events. Like I don't want to pretend that I know more than our Chief Electricity Distribution Officer, like I think you interviewed him maybe a couple of weeks ago. And in that podcast, he talks about what we're doing to future proof the grid against those extreme weather events. So I'm not going to try to think that I have anything more impactful that he will say on that front. But I will say that, from a front office perspective, from a customer service, from a communications perspective, we are really looking at a lot of those tools, and further modernizing them. And what I mean by that is, is taking a look at some different technology that allows us to receive more phone calls into our system, triage those phone calls, using some cloud based technology. So that not everybody is forced to talk to an individual because even at the height of the storm, like you're not going to have 10,000 people answering phone calls within a couple minutes of the storm hitting but we can use technology to triage to allow our customers to know that we know if they are out of power and provide them with the information that we have at that time. So looking at updating some of the telephony software that we have in utilize some of the new technology there. So we are actively working on that. The other component to communications because I think communications really is that biggest avenue for our customers especially during these winter weather events is pushing information out and we are looking to be working on an SMS text based technology system that allows us to push information out so similar to what we're pushing out through our social media channels today. Now sending that information directly to customers, either on their iPhone or potentially in their email box however they want to receive those inputs and alerts from hydro Ottawa. We also took some steps to help people become aware like the weather alert, the weather system and the weather alerts. that are out there giving people a heads up on systems that are coming through. Like that's, that's one thing. But I think customers want to know, when we're looking at a weather event that's different, right? You'll, you'll know when rains coming into Ottawa and you'll get those alerts about snow and all of those things, but not all weather impacts our grid, and what we're looking at is to be able to provide an alert system, again, through through whether it's an SMS or an email out directly into customers inboxes, so to speak, giving them a heads up when we're watching it differently, right. And if we're watching it differently, you know, messages are going out, make sure phones are charged, make sure that you've got blankets, make sure you know where your flashlights and your candles are. So really concentrate on getting people ready for what they need to do. So there's a few steps and you can follow us on hydroottawa.com to get better details on that. But that's what we're doing and making sure that we're putting that out there. Additionally, we've piloted sorry, Dan, I got one more. Additionally, we've piloted a battery program, this was used to be able to support some of our capital work. But in the recent storm this year, we use that battery pilot to be able to help some of the most vulnerable customers in Ottawa, that are really relying on electricity to be able to breathe, right and working with the paramedics hand in hand to make sure that these batteries got to those households so that they, you know, had some additional time for us to get the power back on either to their house or to the community.

Dan Seguin 11:42

Now tell me Julie, what are some of the things customers can do to be better prepared for emergencies and outages?

Julie Lupinacci 11:51

Yeah, so I think there's a few things that we need to do. One, I think we need some major awareness about what that is, like, going back to our elementary school days when we had to plot out the fire, you know, the fire escape plan for our house, right? And go back to thinking about if there's an emergency, do we have an emergency kit together? Right? Do we have bottled water in our house? Do we have working flashlights, right? Not just flashlights that don't have batteries? But where are those batteries? And they are up to date, right? Making sure that you have them not all over the place. But you know where these flashlights are right. I know if anybody's like my kids, they come in, they grab the flashlights and all of a sudden they're in different locations around the house like they need to be, your emergency kit needs to be in one central place so that you know how to get to it, whether the lights are on or off. The other piece is I would make sure that you're following us on our social channels, because we do put information out there. So make sure if you haven't connected with us that you do connect with us. And you can go to our website to find out what those are, I won't list them off here. But the other piece that I would really strongly suggest is that people go and update their contact information into our database or into our database, which will become even more crucial as we start sending these alerts and messages directly to you. Right, no longer just through social media but directly to you and your household to be able to let you know what's going. And if I could say one other thing is that I think planning based on our reliability that we've always had, and the experience that you've always had to these dates, it's no longer enough, right? Like hydro is going to do everything that we can to get the power back on. But you need to plan for Worst case scenario, you can't plan only for the best case. So having an alternative place to go speaking with family and saying if power's out here, we're going to come over and what do we need to bring? Having those plans in place in advance makes you better equipped to withstand any weather event that comes through that may have an outage associated with it.

Dan Seguin 13:59

NExt up, I have Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions. In my interview with Jim he shared all about electric vehicles, including the benefits and challenges of ownership in Canada. In this upcoming clip, he shares some strategies around optimizing electric vehicle usage in winter. Being an EV owner myself, I can confirm that our cold Canadian winters pose certain challenges when it comes to battery life. Is this something to be aware of? And how can organizations mitigate any issues?

Jim Pegg 14:41

So I would say yes, it is true that the cold weather has an impact on batteries, you know, depending on where you are on the globe, there's different different weather patterns and so on, but cold weather certainly has an impact on batteries and the range needed of those batteries. Currently, there are a few ways to tackle this. One is something called pre-conditioning, meaning having your vehicle plugged in while it's warming up in the morning, and you can actually automate that to take place at a certain time. And it can help maintain the battery's range for that day. So that can have a really big impact. The other factor, you know, is what we talked about a little bit earlier, it was a driver training, you know, simple things like understanding the impact of few degrees of heat can have or how people actually drive smooth versus hard accelerations, all those things have an impact on the range you get out of your battery. The good news is with you know, with upfront planning, these issues can be managed to a point where they're not issues at all, you know, and if, if more public chargers come along each year, the certainty around getting from point A to B, to C, D, E, F, and G will get stronger and stronger. There's also a lot of work going into battery technology itself that will help with cold climates as well as the speed at which batteries can be recharged without causing, you know, increased battery degradation. The risk right now is if you know fleets of vehicles are out there and they're constantly having to use fast chargers and higher power chargers on their vehicles on the smaller size fleets that can have a damaging impact on your battery life. But there's a lot of technology going into working on that. But again, with good planning and understanding of a fleet's needs, there are certainly ways to plan around those issues.

Dan Seguin 16:26

Now, I may be biased but as a proud owner of an EV, who has been driving in all sorts of wintry conditions, I can say that the benefits of EV driving far outweigh the challenges around battery usage in the cold. So if you're considering purchasing an EV on your own, I can tell you that you won't regret it. And as Jim said, the technology is always improving. Finally, folks, thank you for joining me today for part two of our winter highlight reel. And thank you for another incredible year! Oh, and before I forget, I'd love to hear from you, our listeners. If you have any feedback or suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com. I'd love to hear from you. I can't wait to continue this journey with you, so we'll be back in two weeks. On Tuesday, January 2, to kickoff 2024 with all new shows, interesting guests and topics. And, as always, there will be some surprises. Don't forget to subscribe to stay in the loop. Until next time, folks. Happy holidays. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com And I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Winter isn’t always a wonderland. In Canada, the season brings a flurry of unique challenges, heightened in recent years by extreme weather events. This episode, the first of two parts to close out the year, revisits thinkenergy’s coolest clips sharing energy considerations and solutions to help mitigate the impacts of winter on our homes, infrastructure, and safety. Hear from experts Shawn Carr, Manager of Customer Experience at Hydro Ottawa, and Nick Levac, FLM at Hydro One.

Related links

• Shawn Carr on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-conrad-2ab1b352/
• Nick Levac on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklevac/

• Hydro Ottawa:

https://hydroottawa.com/en

• Why everyone’s talking about heat pumps: https://hydroottawa.com/en/blog/why-everyones-talking-about-heat-pumps
• Warming up to cold climate heat pumps: https://envari.com/stories/community-centre/
• Hydro Ottawa Tree Trimming:

https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/community-safety/tree-trimming

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

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Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

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Are you prepared for a prolonged power outage? Extreme weather is more common due to climate change. Canada’s experienced disastrous tornadoes, wildfires, and wind and ice storms over the past few years alone, leading to massive disruption to utilities and public safety. Be prepared, stay informed. Dive into the urgent discussion on emergency preparedness in episode 125 of thinkenergy, featuring insights from Hydro Ottawa’s CEO, Bryce Conrad, and Canadian Red Cross Disaster Management Volunteer, Guy Lepage.

Related links

• Bryce Conrad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-conrad-2ab1b352/
• Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/
• The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada
• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
• Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety
• Hydro Ottawa emergency preparedness: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/emergency-preparedness

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa

Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. We're going to take a different direction for today's show. For the first time, I don't have a guest lined up. Instead, on today's show, I'm going to talk about a topic that is close to my heart as a communicator in the electricity sector. And it's something that affects us all. prolonged power outages caused by major weather events. More specifically, I want to talk about what each of us can do to take personal responsibility during a crisis, and how we can all take steps to plan for prolonged outages due to an ice storm, a tornado, heat waves or major wind storms. Now, most of the time, power outages are over shortly after they begin. But with a major storm outages can last much longer. We've all experienced being without power for an extended period of time. And we know that extreme weather events have become more frequent and intense due to climate change. And wow, Canada has certainly experienced his share of national disasters recently, something that we all felt for the first time was the effect of forest fires this past summer. According to the Canadian interagency Forest Fire Center, there were approximately 6623 fires recorded across Canada in 2023, burning a total of 18 million hectares. These fires wiped out entire forest communities, and all infrastructure that supports those that live in these areas including their electricity. Here in Ottawa, we only experienced poor air quality, unlike anything I have ever seen in my lifetime living in the nation's capital. Also in Ottawa this year, there was an Easter ice storm in April, tornadoes that touched down in the south end of the city in the summer, and a number of lightning strikes in June, July and August that broke records and caused a number of outages in the region. It reminded me of a conversation I had with my boss, Bryce Conrad, President and CEO of Hydro Ottawa, back in February 2022. At that time, I asked him how concerned he was with climate change. Listen to his response. You'll think he just said this yesterday. Here's what he had to say then.

Bryce Conrad 03:03

So let's just state categorically that climate change is real. You know, as I sit here today, it's minus 27,000 degrees outside. People go "oh global warming, why is it so damn cold? And of course, you just want to smack people that say things like that. But God's honest truth is climate change is not about the day to day weather, it's about weather patterns. It's about how, you know, in the past, we've had wind storms and ice storms, we've had eight tornadoes, including one in downtown Nepean. You know, we've had a one in 100 year flood, followed by a one in 1000 year flood. We've had heat waves that have stretched and taxed our system. And all of this is just like, quite frankly, within the past five years. So that's what climate change means. It means unpredictable, changing, dramatically changing weather patterns. And if you run a utility, like I do, or like we do, you don't like that. You know, our infrastructure is built to withstand X. It's not well not built to withstand x plus 30%, or x plus 50%. So, you know, when a wind storm comes through, the infrastructure is ready to sustain winds up to 90 miles an hour or something like that. Well, you know, we all saw what happened when tornadoes came through, you know, 130 miles or 160 miles an hour, right? Those poles snapped like twigs. That's what climate change means. So, you know, it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying. And, you know, it's something that we have to start to build into our plans as to how we build better in the future. Sure, so are we building our infrastructure to withstand 90 mile an hour winds? Are we building them to withstand 150 mile an hour winds? While there's a cost difference to that, obviously, but the answer is, yeah, we've got to do a better job of building stronger, more resilient infrastructure. If you're building you know, if you saw during the floods, the Chaudiere Facility, which is our new generating asset down at Chaudiere Falls. You know, you were seeing for the first time in history, all 50 of the gates of the ring dam were open. And there was more, I think it was two Olympic swimming pools were passing through the gates every second. The waterfall, the water, the speed in the waterfall was faster than the Niagara Falls. Like I mean, these are things that shouldn't be happening in downtown Ottawa, but have happened three times since I've been here, and that's 10 years. So if anyone wants to have a debate about whether or not climate change is real, call me up. Let's have that conversation. Because it's very real, and it's going to dramatically impact our future. In terms of the energy transition, I think I talked a bit about it. But you know, when we bottle out, and look at what our future looks like, 50 years from now, our infrastructure looks fundamentally different than it does today. It's in fundamentally different places than it is today. You know, we're going to rely upon artificial intelligence, machine learning. You know, each and every one of those, like, everything will be censored up. So, you know, the idea is that, as opposed to us rolling a track to fix something that's broken or down, we can sort of simply reroute it from the control center. So yes, we still have to get out there and fix what's broken. But for you, the customer of Hydro Ottawa, you actually won't notice the impact because the power will have switched over to another source instantaneously. That's the goal.

Dan Seguin 07:09

Some powerful words from Bryce Conrad, President, CEO of Hydro Ottawa, about climate change, and its effects on the electricity grid. I found his comments about how the advancement of artificial intelligence could result in a self healing grid. And the customer wouldn't even know that there was an outage because the system would be smart enough to know to reroute the power from another source. Sounds futuristic indeed, but something worthy to work towards. Since this is likely a couple of decades off, I want to spend a little bit of time sharing how utilities tackled power outages and restoration today. It's important to understand how it all works. You may be surprised to learn that utilities observe and monitor weather conditions, staying on top of changing weather patterns, so they can alert customers about possible outages in advance. Weather warnings are issued and Hydro Ottawa crews are put on standby to respond to emergencies. During the Ottawa ice storm back in April 2023. More than 225 internal and external field resources were called up to repair damage across the city of Ottawa. This was the second highest use of resources in hydraulic was historic, and it proves the point that utilities are taking these weather events seriously. To provide some perspective, I think it helps understand how utilities assess and restore power after a storm. It's important for us to know this so we can manage our expectations. In today's world we want it all now on demand. It's good to know what happens behind the scenes and the rationale that determines why some customers get restored before others. After a major storm causes widespread outages. The first job of the utility is to investigate the extent of the damage and determine the resources required to restore the power. Here's a general breakdown of how many utilities prioritize restoration after they've performed an assessment of the damage. Priority One: respond to public safety issues and emergencies. Priority two: fix critical electrical system infrastructure like substations and main power lines. Priority three: restore power to critical infrastructure and emergency services like hospitals, airports, water and sewage treatment plants. Priority four: repair power lines that will restore power to the largest number of customers. Priority five: we store smaller clusters of neighborhoods. And finally, priority six: respond to individual homes and businesses that may have sustained damage to their own electrical equipment. Public and personal safety are top of mind for restoration crews who must also deal with the aftermath of any storm, including falling trees, branches, windy conditions, heavy fog, thunder, lightning, and icy roads, all of which make restoring power difficult. And while restoring power is their main purpose, it's important that these brave women and men do not put their lives at risk. conditions have to be safe for them to work. So now, let's get to the part where we find out what we can do as individuals before, during and after a major storm that has caused widespread damage and a power outage. To kick off this section, I'm going to first play a clip from an interview I did earlier this year with Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Guy has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada, and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. I asked Guy during our conversation how Canadians can better prepare for emergencies in general, and especially during prolonged outages, being self-sufficient for three days is still the golden rule. Here's what he had to say.

Guy Lepage 11:37

Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan to sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours (three days) from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire whatever the situation. Can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bathe, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water and we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and two liters. To wash and bathe. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener. Have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio so you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight. There was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, You know last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition. I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half. What am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication. Enough pet food and enough water enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.

Dan Seguin 14:17

That was Guy Lepgage, disaster management volunteer with Canadian Red Cross, talking about his experience as a person who has had his boots on the ground during numerous disasters here in Canada and abroad. He mentioned something very interesting, and I'm going to leave it with you today. As probably the most important takeaway from this show, come up with a three day plan. A great place to start and I'm a little biased here is to go to hydro ottawa.com and visit the emergency preparedness section. There. You will find resources and information about what to consider when building that plan. I hope this episode has helped you consider having those necessary conversations around emergency preparedness. I know this is a departure from our usual podcast programming, but it's an important topic as winter weather approaches. Now, I hope you found this episode worthwhile and informative. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com And I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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The renewable revolution is here. Scientists, entrepreneurs, and policymakers—including Indigenous and industry leaders—are accelerating the transition to clean energy. But does Canada unanimously agree on the path to a more sustainable future? Philippe Dunsky, founder of Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors, joins thinkenergy to discuss. From climate counsels and regional challenges to greener business practices and how to positively impact the clean energy and climate sectors. Listen to Episode 124 today.

Related links

• Philippe Dunsky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philippedunsky/
• Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors: https://www.dunsky.com/
• Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/dunsky-energy-climate-advisors/

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa

Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Right now, there are scientists, entrepreneurs, policymakers, indigenous and industry leaders, helping to shape the direction that Canada will take to accelerate a transition to clean energy. Everywhere you look, whether it's academia, municipal, provincial, or federal governments, there's another council or committee being formed to address the most pressing issues of our time, climate change, from transitioning to sustainable energy sources, electrifying transportation, and improving energy efficiency to protecting our natural environment and reducing carbon emissions. One thing is for certain our country is embracing the renewable revolution, like never before. But those with seats at the decision table know that it must be done responsibly, and affordable. As we know, every region of Canada is unique and presents its own set of challenges and opportunities when it comes to tackling climate change, and ways to implement clean energy. So here is today's big question. How did we get such a vast and diverse country like Canada to agree on a pathway forward to a cleaner, greener and more sustainable energy future? Joining us today is Philippe Dunsky of Dunsky Energy and Climate Advisors, a consultancy firm that Philippe founded. It supports government, utilities, corporations across North America to accelerate their transition to clean energy. Phillippe, is the co chair of Canada's new Canada electricity Advisory Council, the co chair of efficiency Canada, and the director of the greater Montreal Climate Fund. He also previously chaired the Quebec government electrification Working Group. Welcome to the show, Philippe. Let's start by asking you this. Having just gone over some of your accomplishments, where does this passion for clean energy and climate come from? Where did it start?

Philippe Dunsky 02:44

So, so great to be here. By the way, thank you so much for having me. It started, I guess, I guess very early on. I'm Jewish background and grew up with, you know, endless stories about the Holocaust. And somehow that kind of morphed into just a general interest for world affairs and for big challenges, big societal challenges. And then as I was growing up, those became really focused on environmental issues. So that was the genesis. I became very, very interested in environmental issues. And then through that, and climate change in particular, as probably the greatest challenge of my generation, and for my generation. And then, I guess the other thing is, I've come to discover that I'm a pretty analytical guy. So I'm not a no great protester, I'm not a great to great movement leader, I tend to see a lot of gray, not so much black and white. And so that's how I ended up deciding to get involved in these issues. But, you know, in my own way through more of an analytical lens,

Dan Seguin 03:55

Okay, you've served and are serving on numerous councils, committees and boards. Can you tell us what has been the biggest takeaway you've learned through each collaboration? And how has it changed you?

Philippe Dunsky 04:11

Yeah, because each one does change you and changes your perspectives. Because ultimately, the biggest takeaway is that no matter how much I think I know this stuff and know this stuff. Well, and I've been working on energy issues for over 30 years now. And so, you know, I always end up thinking that I know the answer. What we discover is that, you know, there's not a single answer, there are many perspectives. And if you can combine knowledge with multiple perspectives, then you can come up with something that's hopefully going to be closer to that, you know, to that truth, or whatever you want to call it. My big learning is that every time you go into something like this, you go in with an open mind and an open heart. And if you do that, and you're listening to others perspectives, then you're bound to land on something that's a hell of a lot smarter. And then what you initially thought coming into it?

Dan Seguin 05:02

Okay, cool. Now, you were appointed chair for a recently formed Canada electricity Advisory Council. Can you tell our listeners who's on it? What is the mandate? And just how big of an undertaking is this?

Philippe Dunsky 05:19

Sure, I can start with the last question, by the way, that the undertaking, it's a really big issue, it's a really big challenge. On the other hand, the undertaking itself is time limited, it's a 12 month thing. So I'm a pumpkin and I turned into a pumpkin in May. It's been five months now. So I got another seven to go. From that perspective, that's the timing that we're looking at. Okay, Council itself is a group of 18 Canadians from across the country, every single, every single province, no exception. It's, it's extraordinary mix of individuals with an extraordinary mix of experience and perspective. So I'd say roughly half of council members are either current or former utility executives. The other half is a bit more of an eclectic mix of former regulators, we have people involved in the power production side of things, we have first nations leaders, so indigenous leaders, and a couple of others with different perspectives to bring to the table. But the really important thing here, I think, is that you're looking at the leadership level from every single province across the country. And that makes for really, really enlightening and challenging conversations as well. And then I guess you asked about the purpose or the mandate of the council. So I'll put it at a very, very fundamental level as a country, we're trying to largely decarbonize electricity by sometime in the middle of the 2030s. And we're looking to grow electricity, very substantially to decarbonize the rest of the economy. By 2050. That's that dual set of goals is at the heart of our mandate. And our mandate is to figure out what the feds can and must do. And at the same time, what can and must be done by others in the country, to help make this an easier journey, a more affordable journey. And ultimately, a more successful journey on the way there.

Dan Seguin 07:22

Okay, great segue here. Now, with respect to Canada's goal to achieve a 100%, Net Zero electricity system by 2035, you stated, "Is it better to optimize than maximize? Can you maybe break that down for us? And can you give us some examples?

Philippe Dunsky 07:41

Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, what I mean by that is, if all we do is say we want to decarbonize, there are many, many paths to do that. And, you know, we can say, hey, we're gonna, we're just gonna build, build, build, build, build until there's no tomorrow. And we could probably get there, doing nothing but that, but we'll get there in a less affordable way, than if we really think through the intricacies of what needs to be done. Yes, on adding, also on subtracting, so actually becoming more efficient in the way we use energy, relying more on consumers' involvement in the marketplace to achieve some of those goals. I just think there are quick ways to get to the goal, that ultimately, are going to cost too much and or create reliability issues. And if that happens, there'll be a backlash. And we'll never get to the goal. Alternatively, there, they're thoughtful ways that maybe aren't exactly the way we've always done things in the past, but that involve a lot more complexity and being able to wrestle with complexity and stuff. But ways that are focused on keeping this as affordable as possible, ultimately, for everyone across Canada, making sure that we do this in a way that's reliable, so we can always count on electricity being there. And in doing it in a way that actually involves some cooperation, as well.

Dan Seguin 09:04

So the electricity Council fulfills the minister's mandate to establish a pan Canadian grid Council. How viable is a pan Canadian electricity grid? Or are you seeing your movement in regional interconnections?

Philippe Dunsky 09:22

Yeah, so it definitely looks regional. Let me be really clear about that. And I know the original Originally, the name for the council was supposed to be the pan Canadian grid Council, as you pointed out, you'll also notice it, it was not it does not have that name. And there's a reason for that. And, and I will say, you know, and I've said this publicly many times, I don't believe that that's the right answer. We definitely need a lot more cooperation. at the regional level. There are a lot of opportunities for provinces to exchange more to continue exchanging with the US by the way, and this isn't, you know, we're not caught within, within our borders. So we have to do more on the cooperation side to keep costs down again, as low as possible to make this as smart and thoughtful and as achievable as possible. But that doesn't involve, you know, I love the old Coast to Coast Railway analogy. It's nice, it's working for railways. We're not talking about a single grid that goes coast to coast that's just not in the cards.

Dan Seguin 10:28

Now, for those who are not aware, can you tell us about your firm, its purpose, and what makes your approach unique, and particularly effective?

Philippe Dunsky 10:40

Sure, I mean, I'm thrilled talking about my firm. So these days, I spend so much time talking about look Council, which is kind of like my evenings and nighttime job, or evenings and weekend job. But my day job is running my firm, my firm is a group of over 50 professionals. Now, I think we're about 55 now that are dedicated exclusively to supporting clients in their clean energy transitions. And our clients typically are utilities and governments, increasingly large corporate clients as well, across Canada and across the US. So ultimately we work with utilities and governments that are in the throes of this energy transition, that are trying to figure it out. They're trying to find a way to help their customers navigate through it and a way for themselves to navigate through it, to define what the business case is for them and what their proper role is in it. And, and then we also have helped them in some of the nitty gritty. So, you know do you get customers involved on the demand side management side to reduce the pressure on right on the big build out? And all the capital is involved there? You know, what do we need to do to electrify vehicles, for example. So we've developed for some places, charging, charging infrastructure plans and charging infrastructure, business, business plans, strategies, investment plans, we work with, with our, with our customers in helping helping to decarbonize buildings through whether it's direct electrification, or hybrid heating systems without just the natural gas, depending on the on the need, we work with to decarbonize industrial loads, as well. And oftentimes, we're working with our utility customers to help them help their industrial customers decarbonize. So all of those things, and more and of course, planning out the whole transformation of the electricity system on the supply side, is a big part of it. That's a lot of what we do. It's hard to put in a single sentence. But the interesting thing, I guess, for us is, you know, ultimately, we're a consulting shop that is exclusively focused on the clean energy transition, we do nothing other than that. And, and I think that makes us pretty darn good at it.

Dan Seguin 13:02

That's perfect. Phillippe, your company emphasizes support in four focus areas, buildings, mobility, Industry and Energy. How were those identified? And can you maybe provide some specific projects or initiatives that have made a significant difference in the sector's?

Philippe Dunsky 13:25

Yeah, sure. And those sectors are, you know, 80 to 90%, of the energy equation, right. So they've grown over time, in a very deliberate manner, we started out working on the building side of the equation. So you know, what we call DSM or in Ontario, you call it CDM. Just to be different. But so we started out working on that. And then over time, we added mobility, especially electric mobility to our portfolio of expertise, and then built out from there, including on the generation and TND side, in terms of some examples. I mean, I'll be honest with you, we do well over 100 projects a year now. So there are a lot of different ones with a pretty large variety. But for example, I actually just came back from meeting with one of our clients, a large, large electric utility, where we've helped them to revamp their whole CDM approach. So that's, you know, from top to bottom, on the strategy side, on the regulatory side, and then on what the programs actually look like and how they operate and who they involve. In Ontario, we actually completed something I think is absolutely fascinating. I really enjoyed reading it. And that was a study of the potential of Drs. So distributed energy resources in Ontario to essentially keep the lights on, you know, we found 1000s of megawatts of exploitable resources there that you don't need to build because they're already there on the customer side of the meter. So stuff like that. We've worked with a lot of states in the US including California and New York designing, designing measure is to help their customers finance, the transition on their side, we've done a lot of work with, with utility executives helping them think through the strategy side of this, how am I going to actually the change management? How may I change my own utility to go from what it was in that steady state environment of the past 75 years to something that is a completely different beast in a very much more dynamic world. And it's focused on customer service and, and focused on transitioning the energy system as a whole. So, again, a pretty broad array of, of projects, but all of them. Absolutely. Absolutely exciting. And, and fascinating for me to be involved in and learn from.

Dan Seguin 15:45

Okay, now, wondering if you can speak to the importance of responsible and sustainable practices in the clean energy sector? And how has your company prioritized these principles in his work?

Philippe Dunsky 16:00

Yeah, sure. I mean, I mean, look, the world right now is looking to the energy sector to lead and to transform itself. And as we do that, you know, leaders have to have to walk the talk. So, you know, I'm, I'm very proud that most, if not all of my clients are doing that right now within their own operations. And my firm does that in our operations. I try to do that, in my own life, I've been driving nav for seven years. Now, it's a great way for me to, to, to lead by example, but also, quite frankly, to get a head and on the experience curve, and actually understand from personal experience, all right, what are the challenges of of EV ownership and what needs to happen to make it a more seamless process? So you know, that's on the personal side, my company, we're actually a B Corp. So we went through a process to be certified by an independent organization that looks at all of our practices, from soup to nuts. And in our score, our B Corp score has increased. Year over year, I think we started out somewhere about 80 Something points, and now we're at 119. So you know, it's just a process of continuous improvement, just like, just like all of our clients have to have to do.

Dan Seguin 17:12

Okay, cool. Now, we all know, there's always more every country can be doing to combat climate change. But it's complex. In your opinion, Philippe, how does Canada compare? Is it on the right track, and focusing its effort on the right initiatives?

Philippe Dunsky 17:34

Yeah, I think it's, I think Canada is, is definitely moving in the right direction. I think there have been a lot of very important policies brought forward over the past several years that I think, bring us forward. Are they all done exactly the way I would like them to be done? No, if I had a magic wand, would I do it a little bit differently? Probably, but directionally there. Actually, I think we're heading there. You know, that being said, it's a long and winding road. Right. And it will be for the next decade. So there will be setbacks, and there will be things that we're doing that are suboptimal. And that's a little bit part of life. So my job and the role I've kind of given myself and my firm is to help make that path as straight and narrow as it reasonably can be. But you know, recognizing that this is a big learning process and, and mistakes you're gonna make for sure.

Dan Seguin 18:31

Now, Philippe, what are some of the biggest challenges or even threats to achieving a clean energy future in the timeline set out by scientists and the government? How is your company positioned to address them?

Philippe Dunsky 18:46

The biggest challenges and threats and I'll decouple those questions, okay. Because I think that, from my perspective, there are enormous challenges. There's first and foremost, a challenge of time, right? Because what we're talking about if we're talking about, you know, getting to net zero or something like it by 2050. I mean, that's a single generation. So we're talking about literally transforming the backbone of modern economies in a single generation. That is, number one, because frankly, that's never been done before. We've done it within sectors, right, we've done we went from, from horse drawn carriages, to to you know, horseless horseless carriages. And you know, we've, we dumped manufacturer, gas and went, went to natural gas, and we've done individual changes like that before. We've never done all at the same time dealing with that and getting it done. The single generation is a race. And so I do think that time is probably the number one challenge number two challenge. And, you know, if you really take a take a step back here and think about what we're talking about it, it's largely from an economic standpoint, we're largely moving from optics to capex, and there's we're largely it moving from a context where whether it's utilities, or business owners or homeowners, today, we pay our bills, you know, we're buying fossil fuels, right, we're buying and burning the energy that we consume. And so that's an OP X thing. Now, what we're talking about is increasingly stuff, that's just all capital, if you think of, you know, going from a gas plant to, let's say, a wind farm, a wind farm is, you know, it's once and done all of the entire cost for next 20 years, or 95% of it goes in the ground on day one, that's moving objects to capex, it's a really big change. If you're thinking of it from a homeowner perspective, we're talking about, let's say, take my example, you know, I bought an Eevee, my Eevee cost a lot more than that my previous gas car did. On the other hand, I'm paying a hell of a lot less to keep it up to optics to capex. So there's a real challenge around getting enough capital for all this to happen, whether it's for large utilities or down to an individual homeowner or car owner, I think that's a real big challenge that we have a couple more, maybe I'll, maybe I'll stop there. And then the things that my firm is doing to address those, I mean, look, like I said before, on the timeline side, everything we're trying to do is just minimize errors, we're not gonna eliminate them, but minimize errors. So that that line between here and there can be as straight as possible, and as least painful as possible on the capital side, that's a very specific thing. But we actually do a lot of work developing innovative financing mechanisms that utilities and governments can offer to homeowners and business owners, to allow them to have access to the capital that they need, as they tried to save money on the operation side. So those are, those are a couple of them, anyhow.

Dan Seguin 21:57

Okay, Philippe, what do you want Canadians to know about the country's transition to clean energy that they might not already know or be aware of?

Philippe Dunsky 22:10

You know, I think, I think everyone is aware that this energy transition is really big, and it's gonna be really hard. Maybe the one thing I'll add on to it is, there's a lot of benefit on the other side of this. So a lot of benefit, you know, what we're talking about ultimately, is, is transformative in nature, it's the sort of thing that's happened. I'm thinking outside of the energy sector, but just holistically, these kinds of changes have happened a few times in the past 100 years or so. And they tend to always be ultimately about moral leadership to start. And so I think we need to think of this, first and foremost from the perspective of moral leadership, which is something that is one of the reasons why Canada has such a great, strong brand around the world, because we punch above our weight on the great moral issues of the times. And that was true when we went to help out Europe during World War Two, and that was that true. And we went Mulrooney led the boycott of South Africa under apartheid. I mean, we've stood up when we've needed to, that has positioned this country internationally in a way that I don't I'm not sure that we fully measure. This is one of those times. And so being at the forefront of this, I think is extraordinarily important for our country as a whole. That being said, there's also some really economic benefits at the end of this and flip it on its head to there's some real economic costs and risks if we don't do this, and if we don't get it right, well, one thing, one thing I'll point to, I remember about 10 years ago, being in conversations with some provincial governments about the possibility of governments eventually taxing imports of our products, if they're too carbon intensive, and the idea sounded a bit crazy back then we're recording this today on October 30 29 days ago, on October 1, Europe's carbon border adjustment mechanism came into effect for the first time. And that is effectively going to tax import of products from everywhere around the world based on their carbon content. So if we get ahead of this fast, if we succeed in this, if we lower our carbon content of what we produce, we've got a hell of a nice economic advantage at the end of it.

Dan Seguin 24:33

Now, what advice would you give to an aspiring entrepreneur or those looking to make a positive impact in the clean energy and climate sectors?

Philippe Dunsky 24:48

You know, my advice is it's gonna sound a little wishy washy, but it's just figuring out what you're great at. You know, everyone's great at something different so I have a hard time. I'm providing really concrete advice to people I don't know personally, but everyone's got their magic. Everyone's got their special exceptionalism. I think it's important to know who you are, know what you really like to do know where you excel, and then whatever that is, to the extent that you can bring that to service of a greater cause, whether it's climate, whether it's portability, whatever it is, I think that's just a beautiful thing. So I encourage everyone to ultimately lead a purpose driven life and, and lean on their own strengths wherever they may be.

Dan Seguin 25:35

Okay, that's fair. Lastly, Philippe, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Maybe. Okay, here we go. What are you reading right now?

Philippe Dunsky 25:51

Right now I'm actually sounding nerdy but I'm actually reading the CIA's 2030. Outlook, the latest 2030 outlook by the International Energy Agency. Absolutely fascinating read. If you're a nerd, like I am about energy.

Dan Seguin 26:04

Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?

Philippe Dunsky 26:10

My boat? My boat is a canoe. And what would I name my canoe? I'm not sure. Maybe I named it the Power Canoe. One of the reasons I love canoes, by the way, is they're probably the most efficient way of getting from point A to point B on water. So I'm a big fan of energy efficiency and, and a canoe is just that.

Dan Seguin 26:31

Who is someone that you truly admire Philippe?

Philippe Dunsky 26:35

Oh, goodness, I admire so many people, I couldn't come up with a single name there. You know, I work with a lot of leaders who dedicate their time and energy and excellence to, for public purposes. And every single one of those I'm in deep admiration of, I'll maybe add one other group, the folks I work with here in my firm. I've never known a group of people as dedicated and passionate and smart and curious. As they are, they do inspire me.

Dan Seguin 27:05

Good, good. Okay. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Philippe Dunsky 27:10

I'm from Quebec. So I'm a big fan of the circus, the modern circus, whether it's Cirque du Soleil, Cirque Éloize or les Sédois de la mayenne, they always amaze me and I'll always leave me spellbound.

Dan Seguin 27:24

Okay, next, as a result of the pandemic. Many of us are guilty of watching a lot of Netflix or other streaming platforms. What's your favorite movie or show?

Philippe Dunsky 27:38

You know what, I watched many different Netflix shows. These days. I'm just trying to think what's in bridgerton would be one of them right now. I'm really enjoying it.

Dan Seguin 27:52

Now, lastly, Philippe, what's exciting you about your industry right now?

Philippe Dunsky 27:58

What's exciting is the same thing that's exhausting me. And that's the pace of change. It's just an extraordinary time right now. And I'll tell you what's really exciting me is that five years ago, because this is all I do. Right? I'm a one trick pony. So I think about this every day. Five years ago, I felt pretty alone in seeing and understanding the pace of change that we needed today. I feel like pretty much every leader I speak with is very clear eyed about how big this is, how fast it's gotta go, the challenge that it represents, and the near the you know, the knowledge that we need to get going and get going in a big way. So that excites me.

Dan Seguin 28:37

Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?

Philippe Dunsky 28:44

Well, my organization's website is very simple. Dunsky.com. That's probably the easiest, easiest way. And if you want to connect with me, try info@dunsky.com or my own email. The simplest email in the world is philippe@dunsky.com.

Dan Seguin 29:05

Well, Philippe, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Philippe Dunsky 29:15

It was fun. Thank you. I love your questions.

Dan Seguin 29:18

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests from previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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More and more we seek brands and products to help us conserve energy, save money, and make a positive impact on the planet. Every purchase is powerful. ENERGY STAR Canada’s Director of Program Support and Modernization, Burt James, joins episode 123 of thinkenergy to chat ways we can harness that power. From energy-efficient products to how ENERGY STAR programs help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, save electricity, and even improve the quality of our lives. Listen to the conversation today.

Related links

• ENERGY STAR Canada: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/energy-star-canada/18953
• ENERGY STAR Canada on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/energy-star-canada/
• ENERGY STAR Canada on X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/ENERGYSTAR_CAN
• ENERGY STAR Canada on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ENERGYSTARCanada/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you know that your wallet can help you reduce your energy footprint? Energy efficient products have become powerful tools and conservation and energy reduction efforts as people around the world become more aware of the impact their purchasing choices have on the environment. Consumers increasingly want electronic devices and appliances that use less energy to help save money on their energy bills, create a more sustainable future for people and the planet and are less wasteful and subsequently reduce greenhouse gas emissions. More and more people want to do business with brands that are just as concerned about these things as they are and they're using their wallet to send that message. More than ever, we have come to realize the power our wallets hold, we are dictating what is manufactured and produced because of how we think about and use energy. Over the last few decades and perhaps this last decade in particular, more of us are concerned about our own impact and contribution towards climate change. Enter ENERGY STAR Canada, a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and industry to make high efficiency products readily available and visible to Canadians. Providing simple, credible and unbiased information so consumers like us can make well informed decisions in the US alone ENERGY STAR and its partners have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 4 billion metric tons since 1992. And save the equivalent of 5 trillion kilowatt hours of electricity. You likely know and recognize and have Energy Star products in your home already. Its logo has become a trusted symbol, particularly in the appliances space, but there's a lot more that they do then you may not be aware of. So here's today's big question. In what ways can we harness the power of our wallets to make a positive difference for our planet and what other opportunities exist through programs like ENERGY STAR to lessen our impact on the environment, and even human health? Joining us today is Bert James. He's the Director of Product Support and modernization at ENERGY STAR from the Office of Energy Efficiency. Hey, Bert, welcome to the podcast.

Bert James 03:10

Pleasure to be here.

Dan Seguin 03:11

Now. Maybe you can start by telling us how the ENERGY STAR brand came to be and why it's become such a trusted symbol.

Bert James 03:21

Thanks for the question, Dan. The Energy Star program was actually started in the early 1990s by the US Environmental Protection Agency, but was first brought to Canada in 2001. In an international partnership and our can through the Office of Energy Efficiency are the stewards of the program in Canada. It's a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and program participants to make high efficiency products, homes and buildings available and visible to consumers and businesses. The product program is probably the one that people are most familiar with. And it was the first member of the ENERGY STAR candidate family. There are more than 80 types of products available and 1000s and 1000s of products, we have over 1000 program participants in the product space alone. Later on in 2005. We brought in the ENERGY STAR for new homes program in 2017. ENERGY STAR for industry in 2018, Energy Star certification became available for commercial and institutional buildings. And how did it become such a trusted symbol, I think through consistent performance more than anything else, it's recognized by a strong majority, like more than 80% of Canadians know what that little blue star means whenever they see it. It's government backed, which I think gives it some credibility or at least I'd like to think so there are transparent and really strict efficiency specifications as well which makes the program reliable and the products themselves are subject to post market verification in that, you know, it's not just about what you say your product will do, but it's actually about how your product performs. So there are proven savings. The market is quite saturated I think with Energy Star products. In terms of a price comparison, there's no difference in Most product categories and by purchasing one provided that it fits your design style, you know, you're going to save money if you purchase an energy star product.

Dan Seguin 05:08

That's very cool. Now, how does your rating system and our guide fit into this equation?

Bert James 05:15

So the inner guide rating system does kind of dovetail with ENERGY STAR, but they are separate pieces. In the world of residential homes. There is an EnerGuide rating system that compares individual homes from an energy performance perspective against other homes and then issues a rating ENERGY STAR for new homes, by contrast, is actually a reflection of the energy performance as it relates to the building code. In the world of appliances. Energy Star has a certain technical specification or and I guess, to elaborate a little further on that each product must have a certain energy performance, whereas EnerGuide is more just a measure of that energy performance. It's not a standard per se. It's just a reading.

Dan Seguin 05:59

Thanks for the clarification. Okay, but we're seeing a trend where the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today aren't multifamily. And in Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Now, does this present a challenge or an opportunity for the Energy Star program?

Bert James 06:28

Well, I like to see everything as an opportunity then. So I would definitely put this into that category. I think the biggest challenge, if I may, is to kind of work within this situation where we find ourselves where we need to build more homes. I think there is a shortage of housing on the market. When we choose to build homes, we would like them to be as efficient as possible. And that's where ENERGY STAR can come in. From a certification standpoint. Many people live in multifamily homes now, or multi unit residential buildings or condo buildings. And of course, we encourage them all to use Energy Star products within their homes. But more broadly for whole buildings. We do have an Energy Star certification program for multifamily high rises in Ontario. It's a certification program for new construction that recognizes buildings that are at least 15% more efficient than those built to the provincial energy code and meet some other program requirements. But as we focus a lot on housing supply in this country, it is sometimes hard to talk about efficiency whenever we just need to get homes built. And so we you know, we see it as a challenge in terms of keeping energy efficiency in the spotlight whenever these homes get built, and also an excellent opportunity to promote the work that we do here within OEE.

Dan Seguin 07:46

Okay, the ENERGY STAR is mostly known for residential homes and appliances. But you're also in the industrial and commercial space. What programs exist to help these sectors reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

Bert James 08:02

This is a question where my answer might be long, I'm going to try and keep it as concise as I can. So there are a number of initiatives in both the commercial and industrial space. And I'll start with the commercial space energy star that has a tool called Portfolio Manager, which is a benchmarking tool. It's been with us this is actually the 10th anniversary this year is the 10th anniversary of the use of portfolio manager. And what Portfolio Manager allows you to do is measure your buildings performance as compared to other buildings that are in a similar class, it spits out a score and that score allows you to compare how your building will perform overall, in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, a building that has a higher score consumes less energy and is more efficient in terms of keeping the heat in and so through the use of a portfolio manager a building owner can actually evaluate how their building performs as they construct it. But also if they were to do some retrofits to see how much better the building actually performs itself in the world of commercial residential or condo buildings. Portfolio Manager is obviously another tool that people could use but we also do have this pilot program in Ontario that does recognize buildings that are more energy efficient. So in the world of industrial players ENERGY STAR has two components. There is an energy star challenge and then a certification process. The challenge for industrial facilities is to reduce their energy consumption by 10%. Within five years, if you achieve this goal, you receive ENERGY STAR recognition and you can display the ENERGY STAR challenge for industry logo while 10% might not seem like a big achievement over the course of five years, the amount of electricity that some of the these facilities consumed is really quite substantial and a 10% drop in energy use can lead to some significant changes to the bottom line for these facilities. From a certification perspective, Natural Resources Canada recognizes the most energy efficient Canadian facilities with ENERGY STAR for industry certification. So industrial facilities located in Canada can earn the certification and display the energy star symbol. And it is done through an energy performance indicator that allows you to benchmark your facility's performance against those across Canada and the United States, it generates a score and those with the highest scores are eligible for certification.

Dan Seguin 10:28

Okay, what makes ENERGY STAR certified buildings unique?

Bert James 10:34

So ENERGY STAR certified buildings are, as I mentioned, in the residential space, the multi unit buildings they perform at least 15% better than the standard as described in the provincial energy code and ENERGY STAR certified buildings are just they are of higher energy performance. And you can feel it whenever you're in some of these buildings. And you can definitely see it through the control systems that are in place to manage energy within them. There are really some fantastic innovations happening in the building space with respect to heat and energy recovery. And these all help to improve the energy performance and ultimately improve the score through Portfolio Manager and that's what sets them apart is that they are higher performing buildings. You know, here in Ottawa, there are a couple of buildings that have recently been announced as net zero buildings whenever they are finally going to be built. That is the highest standard that we are looking at right now. But overall, you know, cut and dried, the difference between the ENERGY STAR certified building and one that is not ENERGY STAR certified is its energy performance.

Dan Seguin 11:34

Burt, are you able to unpack for listeners, what is the process to being certified?

Bert James 11:41

To be eligible for Energy Star certification, a building must earn a certain score through the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager access to Portfolio Manager is free. And I want to be clear that it does not require an engineering degree in order to operate it, it is something that a building manager can come in and use if it receives a certain score of 75. That means that it's operating better than at least 75% of similar buildings nationwide. So the entire process is done within the portfolio manager tool. Once you register for an account, you benchmark your building by using metered energy data. It's asking, you know, building operators for the data that they already have, which can be entered into the tool manually, or in some cases that can actually be automatically uploaded into the tool. Once you obtain your score. If it is 75 or higher, then you can submit an online certification application, have it verified by a licensed professional and then submit it to Natural Resources Canada, and then the last step for us is just to review that application. And if it is certified, the building receives an ENERGY STAR deckle to display on the building and also gets listed on in NRcan's online registry.

Dan Seguin 12:50

Now I'm curious about your signature program, the Canada Greener Homes Grant. What can you tell us about it, and how retrofit factors into your work?

Bert James 13:02

So the Canada Greener Homes Grant was launched in 2021. And I think in government time, that still makes it a relatively new program. It is obviously a program to incentivize home energy retrofits in the residential space across Canada. You know, the program itself was designed to improve the energy performance of home so there is a focus on improving the building envelope and also some of the equipment that exists within the home. When I say building envelope, I don't just mean you know the walls I also mean the windows and doors. And as it relates to energy star to be eligible for one of the grants, consumers or homeowners must install ENERGY STAR certified products into those spaces. There's also opportunities to add insulation to swap out furnaces for heat pumps and there are other aspects. So the retrofitting of homes is a very important factor for us as we work towards, you know, a net zero economy by 2050. The building sector accounts for a significant percentage of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions primarily related to space and water heating and retrofitting those buildings is an essential component of how we get to net zero energy star certainly plays a role in in supporting homeowners by putting high performing products in and ultimately can help us down the road of consuming less energy and reducing greenhouse gas emissions in cases where if you are heating with a natural gas furnace, having high efficiency Windows keeps that he didn't and you will burn less gas overall and reduce your emissions associated with it.

Dan Seguin 14:40

Bert, more and more municipalities and communities are looking for ways to reduce costs and greenhouse gas emissions. What is the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager and who is the target audience?

Bert James 14:55

So the Portfolio Manager is a free tool you know, it's run by the United States Ba, they are the ones that the custodians of the tool can have certainly modified the tool, you know, for our own context, the target audience for Portfolio Manager are building operators. And so they are the people who have access to the water consumption, the energy consumption, waste generation, all of those things come into the portfolio manager tool, and we, you know, we target our work towards, towards the building operators and the building managers to get their information into it, it is really quite something but we have more than 40% of all commercial space across Canada is already found in the portfolio manager tool, and that date that is increasing all the time. And we have some good news stories from provinces, municipalities who are actually mandating the use of the tool in order to demonstrate energy performance in their jurisdictions. So like I said, the tool itself is free, it is quite easy to use, and but it is targeted towards the people who actually have access to that information about how a building currently performs and how it operates.

Dan Seguin 16:07

That's great, Bert. Now how does the federal budgets focus on energy and decarbonisation, the economy affects your work?

Bert James 16:09

Well, it is my work in many ways. I mean, energy efficiency is a central component of how we get to net zero by 2050. I like to think that there are three pillars to this : decarbonisation, which is the actual, you know, elimination of fossil fuel build burning devices. There is electrification, which is the conversion of certain things to electricity from a fossil fuel device, but then there's also energy efficiency. And so the less energy that we can use in order to operate, you know, a building an industrial facility or a product to the easier it is to to electrify that, and ultimately here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, that's, that's our goal, we want people to use high performing devices, we have many success stories around this, you know, we the efficiency of a refrigerator built in 2023 is, you know, many multiples ahead of of a refrigerator built, you know, 25 or 30 years ago. Similarly, incandescent light bulbs are actually getting harder and harder to find, and at some point in time, they will likely be regulated out of existence. So you know, the energy is the lifeblood of our economy, how we use that energy and the efficiency with which we use that energy is, I think, going to be a major indicator of our success as we move towards a full decarbonisation of the economy and reducing our emissions from coast to coast.

Dan Seguin 17:47

Now has the main social driver to buy Energy STAR shifted from energy saving, to, let's say, planet saving?

Bert James 17:56

That's a very good question. And I would say, our focus is still on saving energy, all energy has a cost. And if we can reduce the amount of energy that we consume, then ultimately we are going to save some money along the way. In Canada, we have a very clean electricity generation grid. And so but there are certain jurisdictions where even within this country where we still burn fossil fuels in order to generate electricity, if we can consume less energy, we will burn less fossil fuels in those jurisdictions. But I would say that the focus for the Energy Star program remains on remaining within energy performance and saving money and through the savings of energy, ultimately, are we going to be saving the planet along the way, I'd like to think that we are contributing positively in that way. But for us here, the focus has always been on just increasing the efficiency of the products that we are responsible for and helping Canadians make smart decisions with respect to where they live, work and play.

Dan Seguin 19:03

Got a follow up question for you, Bert. What trends are you seeing and what are you learning from consumers through their purchasing decisions?

Bert James 19:12

We are seeing I mean, I think greener homes are an excellent example. To go back to that question. We have seen nearly a doubling of program participation in energy star as a result of the incentives that are available through the greener homes grant. So people speak with their wallet sometimes, and by putting Energy Star products into greener homes, we've seen a significant uptick in the purchasing of fenestration products or windows and doors within the ENERGY STAR space. You know, we are are very proud of what we've done in the lighting space in particular, because we you know, ENERGY STAR lighting at one point in time was it was LED lighting and I think before that it might have there might have been some other model But we have largely moved away from incandescent lighting entirely. So, you know, we see people who are interested in purchasing a product, the concern that we tend to hear from Canadians is around cost differential. So they might not want to purchase a product, even if it's going to save them energy if it costs more money. And this is where I really love the Energy Star program. Because if you're buying a ceiling fan, there's no difference in cost between an ENERGY STAR ceiling fan and another ceiling fan. And this is the same thing across products like televisions, computer monitors. And so people don't need much of a push in order to buy a more efficient product. The concern that they have is obviously if there is a cost differential, this becomes a bit more of a pressing concern whenever we start to talk about housing, because obviously we want people to buy high performance housing. But there's a limit to how much more people are going to be willing to pay for a high performing house as compared to one that might not be an ENERGY STAR certified new home.

Dan Seguin 21:04

Okay, Burt, what role does ENERGY STAR have in achieving Canada's net zero emissions by 2050?

Bert James 21:15

Well, I can give you the most recent numbers that I have in 2022. Alone, ENERGY STAR certified products saved enough energy to power over 320,000 homes for a year or the equivalent of removing 680,000 cars from the road. Improving energy efficiency contributes firsthand to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and is an important part of Canada's national approach to addressing climate change. The program supports Canadians in reducing energy consumption and improves efficiency across multiple sectors of the economy. The program assumes a multi pronged approach to advancing these environmental objectives from manufacturing, distribution and purchasing, obviously, as we have discussed residential housing both single family homes and multi unit homes promoting high efficiency and high efficiency performance in the commercial and institutional buildings and challenging industry to push efficiency even further. So I think ENERGY STAR absolutely has a role to play. It is an aspirational standard. But you know, through program participation, and through the work that we do with our various stakeholder groups, we have the power to leverage that brand to influence people to make good purchasing decisions that will ultimately lead them to, you know, reduce their energy consumption, reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, and and hopefully get us towards net zero by 2050.

Dan Seguin 22:37

Now, let's move on from role to goals. What are some of your own internal goals with respect to net zero?

Bert James 22:47

Well, you know, here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, Net Zero is sort of our shining star, it's the one that we're trying to work towards, we continue to push standards higher and hire on the regulatory side of things. To make products more and more efficient. Obviously, we can't push too far too fast. Because sometimes the products just don't exist to have an energy performance that we know where they need to be. And so we are constantly seeking opportunities to identify product types to improve the standards overall. I know we work in close and close contact with the US EPA who are developing new standards for ENERGY STAR for new products that are coming ahead. And so what we want to do is, is just, we want to do everything that we can to make sure that energy efficiency stays front of mind as we are making purchasing purchasing decisions that we're providing information to people about the importance of of energy efficiency, and really supporting what is a robust labor market for energy efficiency as well, you know, the greener homes, you know, to go back to that has really helped to incentivize the retrofit market with a focus on energy efficiency, I think we we should be very proud of jobs that are created the economic activity that gets created out of that because the environment and the economy are not distinct things, more and more they are becoming one of the same in terms of you know, addressing environmental challenges are is an excellent economic opportunity. And I think ENERGY STAR has a role to play in that space.

Dan Seguin 24:25

Okay, time for a little bragging bird. What are some of Energy STARS or the office of Energy's efficiencies greatest accomplishments?

Bert James 24:35

Well, I'll start with ENERGY STAR. Certainly, there are a couple of things that I wanted to point out too. One is that we will be sunsetting the ENERGY STAR requirements for most lighting products. This is to pat ourselves on the back Mission Accomplished story we brought in the ENERGY STAR standard, which was led lights and that standard has what was originally aspirational has now become the industry standard. And we are going to be decommissioning the ENERGY STAR standard because most products are built to it anyways, the overwhelming majority of lighting products that you find meet that standard. And so that's a very good news story for us. Similarly, the EPA has indicated that we will be decommissioning standards related to the performance of fossil fuel devices and burning devices such as furnaces or hot water heaters, because the technology for electric electricity or electric heating and cooling as well as electric water heating have advanced to a point where, you know, our focus is going to become improving that energy performance and, and getting away from consideration around fossil fuels in the world of commercial buildings. Another great story for energy portfolio managers, as I mentioned, is that approximately 45% of commercial buildings by floor space are benchmarked through this through the Portfolio Manager tool, you know, the more that we can get into Portfolio Manager, it's a bit of a game, right? So for building operators, you know, whether you are operating a school or a hospital, you know, a medical clinic, you can compare your facilities, energy performance against other facilities. And the more that we can put into Portfolio Manager, the better we understand the performance of our building stock and look at ways to that we can ultimately improve if I look at the Office of Energy Efficiency, certainly, you know, we've launched a number of very successful programs over the course of the years greener Homes has issued hundreds of millions of dollars worth of grants already, but something that I would like to to advocate for is that, you know, OEE also plays a key role of as regulator, so we have saved a lot of energy, and we've phased out some poor performing products such as light bulbs, but we use our regulatory role to support building operators to support industry to support manufacturers, and we have a couple of very well known products in enter guide, both the inner guide that shows up on your appliances and enter guide for houses. These are very well known and web and highly recognized programs. And nothing beats brand recognition whenever it comes to programs such as this.

Dan Seguin 27:13

Lastly, Burt, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

Bert James 27:21

Okay, I guess I'm ready as ready as I'll ever be. Yes.

Dan Seguin 27:25

So what are you reading right now?

Bert James 27:28

So I have to confess, Dan, that outside of work, I'm not a big reader. I tend to listen to podcasts. I'm an auditory learner. And so I love the podcast medium, what I'm listening to on podcasts right now, and a couple of things. I love current affairs. And so I listened to Current Affairs podcast quite a bit. Most recently, I, you know, kind of dived into a couple of different topics related to the use of artificial intelligence. And one that is, you know, I would say more of a guilty pleasure than anything else, which is just listening to interminable amounts of sports podcasts. So I, so I read all day, every day for work. And whenever I get to the end of my work day, I tend to turn that skill in my brain off and I tend to listen more than read.

Dan Seguin 28:17

What would you name your boat if you had one? Or maybe you do have one?

Bert James 28:21

I do have a boat. It is a canoe and the canoe’s name is Worth My While.

Dan Seguin 28:29

Who is someone that you truly admire, Bert?

Bert James 28:32

Well, the first person that comes to mind is my mother. Of course, I am a mama's boy, if you can't tell from that statement. My mother is 80 years old, and could write a book on how to fit 25 hours into your day. She is quite incredible. You know, Dan, just to just take a step back, I work with the smartest group of people I've ever known right now. And I look around me and, you know, not just within the management community that I'm part of, but people up and down throughout this organization, I really admire their commitment to the organization, their commitment to the work that they do, and the dedication that they show. So I feel very fortunate to be a public servant, and particularly in the role that I'm in right now just to be surrounded by experts in their fields, both technical experts, policy experts and just leaders in the truest sense of the word. And those are the so if I had to say pick anyone to admire would probably be them.

Dan Seguin 29:30

Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Bert James 29:35

Well, I actually had - and you can tell me after the fact that this is something that I am not allowed to talk about on the podcast - but I had something truly amazing happen to me about a week and a half ago. I was in Algonquin Park, and I was fishing and I ended up catching a fish and he decided that we were going to have it for lunch. And so in the process of cleaning a fish, I opened it up and a live baby snapping turtle fell out of its belly. And it was the most amazing circumstance that I think I've ever been part of. And if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got lots of other experiences. But I cannot get over how magical it was that I happened to be on that beach at that time and to liberate it. So we named the turtle Lucky. And we put the turtle into a safe space for a little while, then we went back and checked on him for a day or so. And then the turtle had disappeared and had gone off. We assumed greener pastures, but that is the closest thing to magic that I have ever experienced. You know, but if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got another example for you.

Dan Seguin 30:49

Okay, now, as a result of the pandemic, many of us are guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and TV. What is your favorite movie or show?

Bert James 31:01

So similar to my answer about what I am reading, I don't tend to watch a lot. I spend my day in front of screens and a good portion of my day on camera leading meetings, et cetera. The most recent Netflix show that I really got into was Ozark which was, which was a pretty, you know, dark and brooding show at times. But I found it quite compelling in terms of television. I tend to stick to sporting events, most of the time. That's where my interest lies. It's not that I don't enjoy television. It's just that for some reason, sitting in front of yet another screen, whenever I've spent a good portion of my day in front of screens, doesn't really resonate with me.

Dan Seguin 31:48

Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now, Bert?

Bert James 31:53

Well, I think there is an increasing amount of media attention being paid to energy efficiency, you know, not just from a technological perspective, because there's quite a bit of information in the news right now about heat pumps and the possibilities that heat pumps bring to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. What I think is really exciting about it is that it feels somewhat like a coming of age moment in that the world of energy efficiency has been creating jobs for decades. But more and more, I think people are starting to recognize the potential that this sector has from a research and development angle, you know, the potential job opportunities that it creates, and both the public and social benefits that come with energy efficiency as well. And so there does seem to be a recognition of what energy efficiency can bring to the economy. And I love talking about my work, not just with you with anyone who will listen, and I really feel like we are at a turning point, just because of, you know, some of the environmental challenges. I think climate change being the challenge of our generation, and just looking at the enormous potential that exists within this sector to make life better, measurably better for Canadians and for people around the world.

Dan Seguin 33:18

If our listeners want to learn more about you or your organization, how can they connect?

Bert James 33:23

So if you're looking for information about ENERGY STAR, if you go search online for ENERGY STAR Canada will bring you directly to our web presence. If you're looking for more information about the Office of Energy Efficiency, I would counsel people to do the same. I don't often direct people to our website. It's not something that you know, is going to wow you but there is a great amount of information in there really quite relevant information. It can help people find incentive programs within their own jurisdictions. It can help people learn about the products that they want to buy or are considering buying. And it can help greatly from an education standpoint to help people learn about the benefits of energy efficiency in their home and at their office.

Dan Seguin 34:08

Well Burt, this is it, we've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcasts. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.

Bert James 34:18

I did. I did. How should I say this? It's nice to be on the other side of the speaker. I listen to a lot of podcasts, yours included, and I love to inform myself in this way and whatever I can do to promote my work, which I am intensely proud of. I am happy to do so.

Dan Seguin 34:34

Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow

View Details

What role do communicators play in motivating change? Specifically, how can they move their audiences to take action against climate change? In thinkenergy episode 122, we delve into the world of climate communication with Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re.Climate. Explore the driving forces, opportunities, and challenges of inspiring climate action—from bridging research to practise to empowering change. Listen in for an insightful conversation on shaping a sustainable future.

Related links

• Amber Bennet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abennettyyc/
• Re.Climate: https://reclimate.ca/
• Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: https://www.ipcc.ch/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you scroll through the news this morning? How many of those articles that you skim covered a topic related to climate change? I guess it was probably a few. It seems. Every couple of weeks there's a new story dominating the headlines about forest fires, hurricanes, floods, heatwaves, and more, both here in Canada and abroad. We are seeing firsthand the effects of climate change and As consumers, we are receiving information about it. Everywhere we look. Have you ever thought about how you are being communicated to? How is climate change presented? What wording was used? And why? And are their calls to action? How does it make you feel? think not only about news articles you read, but also about documentaries, podcasts, Hollywood movies, right down to your everyday life. Think about the newsletter you receive from your municipality. The assembly instruction on the last piece of furniture you purchase, or this section on your favorite clothing brand, website about their sustainable practice, communications surrounding climate change are pretty much everywhere and the need to be. In June of 2021, the Canadian government introduced the Canadian net zero emission Accountability Act, which puts into legislation Canada's commitment to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. Different companies across the country are making their commitment, much like we did in 2022, when we committed to leading the way to a Smart Energy Future by becoming net zero by 2030. The push on to stop the damaging pollution emitted into the environment on a daily basis, namely caused by burning fossil fuels. Scientists are urging that this is crunch time. So if you haven't already, now is the time to hone in on how and what you are communicating to your customers. So here is today's big question. What role do communicators play in motivating change within their audiences to take action against climate change? Our guest today is Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re Climate, Canada's first climate communications and Engagement Center. This new organization launched in 2022 brings together Canada's leading climate communication academics and practitioners, and aims to help communicators create strategies that inspire the public to support climate action. Amber is one of Canada's top climate communication strategists and capacity builder who works with groups across the country bridging gaps between research and practice. She led the groundbreaking Alberta narrative project and supported much of the foundational work to pilot and build reclaim it. Amber, thank you for joining us today.

Amber Bennett 03:54

Thank you for having me.

Dan Seguin 03:56

Amber, maybe you can start by telling us a bit about yourself and Re Climate How did you get into climate communications? How did Re Climate come to be and what does it aim to achieve?

Amber Bennett 04:09

Okay, I'll try to hold all of those questions at once. Well, I am based in Calgary, Alberta, which may seem like an unlikely place for some for the executive director of a Canadian organization or Canadian center focused on climate communications and engagement at Carleton University. But that's where I live with my family. And what to say? Yeah, I mean, I think I've been circling around climate communications for a very, very long time. You know, the the mind has a funny way of making sense of things in retrospect, but I started with a Bachelor of Science and then I moved on to a public relations degree and then I worked with the mayor of Calgary on the one of the I forget which numbered cop, but it was a Copenhagen. And I think that was really the first time I began to think about what, what is climate change and had a certain kind of exposure to the, to the, you know what the challenge was and what not. And when I saw I kind of went on, and I did a master's degree. And it was when I had needed to choose a topic for my master's degree when there was the catastrophic flooding here in Calgary. And there is this, like, amazing paradox where the, you know, Calgary Stampede, which is the epitome, I would say, of the, you know, kind of old boys club. And when that happened, when the floods happened, their motto was come hell or high water come hell or high water, they were going to, you know, produce the show. And at the same time, one of the readings I was doing as a part of my master's program was also titled come hell or high water. And it was really about the science of climate change, and why it is making it so difficult. Why is it so difficult for humans to kind of wrap our heads around it. So fast forward, I completed a master's, and then did a series of really interesting projects. I did some work with a group out of the UK called Climate outreach, which is focused on climate communications and engagement as well. And then started working with a group of people here in Canada to set up a similar center or similar organization that would focus on supporting climate communicators, helping to kind of bring together the research that was happening, as well as the practice. And so that's really why Re Climate it is set up to do, we're really dedicated towards advancing the practice of climate communications and engagement through research, training, offering resources, pulling resources together, strategy, and developing strategy with other types of practitioners, as well as convening networks of both scholars, as well as those people who are kind of out there in the real world doing campaigning and advocacy work and trying to, you know, communicate with citizens and whatnot. So, that's kind of where we're at.

Dan Seguin 07:34

Now, Amber, it sounds like Re Climate, is a very diversified organization that brings together experts in social science, Public Affairs, and science. What kind of professionals work together in this environment? And what does it each bring to the table?

Amber Bennett 07:55

Love this question. So Re Climate brings together I think I've said it research and practice. And so you have those practitioners who may be doing public engagement campaigns, they may be working for utilities, they may be working in local governments or other kinds of government, they might also be working in advocacy organizations. And so they often don't have the time, or I would argue the luxury of going into, you know, latest academic journals, or even, you know, kind of other thought leaders who are publishing in the field. Why? Because they're busy, they're doing the work. And so, you know, that kind of takes a lot of time to kind of go in and look at the research, track it down, make sense of it? They're also, I would argue, very few who have the time to do an evaluation, like after they've done something, what did we learn from it? You know, What, did we make a difference? You know, what kind of impact are we having, and similarly, just getting together with other folks, right, and talking about it and sharing what they're learning. So that's kind of on the practitioner's side. And so, you know, when we say we bring or convene networks of people together, we're really trying to do that, you know, we're trying to provide resources, synthesize, you know, research, both, perhaps, you know, it's public polling, or maybe it's social science, you know, what's happening in in, that's relevant, but also bringing people together to share with each other and learn with each other. So that's kind of that practitioner side. And, you know, there's also, I would say, sometimes a culture where people feel like they're competing with each other, you know, certainly within the charitable sector. So kind of, I think, for those folks who are coming in, who are kind of in the field, having that support and someone who's doing In the work on their behalf to kind of make sense of synthesize, pull it in together like yours, your five tips here, the things you need to do. That's extremely helpful. And then on the flip side, I think for researchers, you know, they're, they're kind of passionate, there's a reason why they're there thinking or trying to understand, you know, how to better engage people, or what's the right framing, or what are the values or whatever it is, because they're passionate about it. So by being able to kind of bridge from the practitioner world into a more academic or into a research field, we're able to just give people real world challenges. It's like, here's why practitioners are actually struggling with, you're an expert in this, please talk to us about it, or please, you know, this is the kind of information that they need. So, you know, kind of the practitioners, I would say, Bring the complexity of the real world, right, that we're dealing with real people, resource constraints, you know, various kinds of issues and whatnot, whereas researchers bring the kind of precision of being able to look at something with a whole body of understanding behind them to be able to kind of see, well, here's what may be operating within this situation, here's what we know about it. And here are some other kinds of interventions or approaches that we might be able to take. I don't know if that exactly answers your question. Maybe the scientists part, I would say they bring the public trust. Right. So whenever we're polling, you know, consistently, scientists come up on top as having high levels of public trust on climate and energy transition. And so I think that they bring that kind of authenticity. And, you know, they're not there, they're often unpolitical, right? They're not seem to be benefiting, you know, personally from talking about it. So they're really effective messengers.

Dan Seguin 11:57

Wondering if you can share some insight into what the average Canadian's knowledge on climate change is? How much do they know about the main causes and the path forward?

Amber Bennett 12:14

Well, I would say that Canadians probably know a lot about climate change. But what we measure, it's a little bit different. So when, and I would encourage folks to take a look at some of the reports that we have published on ReClimate.ca The one that I'm, you know, I kind of go back to was published this year, or maybe it was last year. But within these reports, we basically look across 65, or more, either private or publicly available surveys, or public polls or whatnot, and we kind of do it a roll up of okay, so it's not just one survey that has said, this is multiple surveys that are showing kind of trends and themes in in where the Canadian beliefs or attitudes or or mindsets are. So when you do that, and when we looked across, you know, 65, or so what you can see is, is that, even though you have the majority of Canadians that would say yes, climate change is real, and it is happening, almost half of them attribute both natural and manmade causes, you know, attribute the cause of climate change due to natural causes as well as as manmade. And so why is that important, is because when we get into the conversations around solutions, then without the kind of foundational understanding that burning fossil fuels creates pollution, which creates a heat trapping blanket, which is heating our planet, and causing all of these extreme weather events and natural disasters that we're seeing. Without that kind of clear understanding that burning fossil fuels is the cause of climate change. And when you get into the solutions, and what people actually have to do about it, the conversations a bit more, there's a lot of confusion, or there's a lot of room for confusion, which is kind of what we're seeing and I can talk a little bit more about that. So you know, I spend a lot of time in focus groups, and this kind of conversation comes up. So when we talk about solutions in the path forward, you talk about climate change, and you start to have discussions around what you are doing, you know, recycling will often come up, plastics will often come up. There's a whole kind of suite of things that people are doing, but very few people are able to name a particular policy or real intervention that you know, that will address some of the root causes. And we people on this podcast may not be like, Hey, why really. But you know, there are a lot of different people and for many climate change, even though they may be living within the impacts are the, you know, experiencing in their daily lives, they have many other kinds of concerns and priorities that are happening at the same time. So what I would say is that Canadians believe that climate change is happening, there is at least half that are uncertain, or would attribute it to both natural causes, and manmade causes. This kind of understanding of burning fossil fuels, the trapping blanket, you know, that's not well understood by many. And so they're kind of subsequently stopping burning fossil fuels, as a path forward isn't clear, as it could be, or, or should be at this point in time. And maybe the other thing I if you, if you'll let me, the other thing I would say is, is that, you know, Canadians consistently report, when you ask them very high levels of concern about climate change, right? Most people can see forest fires, you know, that's how we are making sense of what climate changes. It is through these kinds of experiences, either directly, or our experiences of seeing, you know, extreme weather and natural disasters. So people are expressing very high levels of concern. But if you ask, unprompted, what are you know, what are the issues that you're most concerned about? It often will address climate change as mentioned Much, much farther down on the list. Right. So, affordability and access to health care, cost of living, housing, there are many other issues that people are faced with and dealing with in their day to day lives.

Dan Seguin 17:18

Okay, see the term movable middle mentioned in reports and on the reclaimed site, what is the movable middle? And why is it so important?

Amber Bennett 17:34

Great question. And I feel compelled to say that I think that term movable metal is used differently by different people. I think within the context of, you know, the work that we do, it kind of comes out of, you know, some of the themes that I was talking about in the last in in the last question or last answer. It's this idea that, you know, people are kind of undecided. Or they're conflicted about an issue. So they could move either one way or the other, but they're not at the moment. oppositional? Right. So if you think about, you know, a broader population, there is a segment, you know, of Canadians, whose identities are really built around the idea that they don't believe in climate change. They're not going to support, you know, climate action and whatnot. There's also on the other side, a whole group of Canadians whose identity is built around me. I'm a climate activist, and I'm a climate advocate. And you know, and I'm an environmentalist, and so they're on the other side, but most of us just kind of live in the middle. Some are more well informed than others. But for the most part, people are concerned, right in the middle. They have they, you know, when they ask, yes, we want the government to act, we are highly supportive of it. But when it comes down to it, it's this tension around the fact that because they may not be well informed, or not thinking about this, they have many competing priorities. You're kind of undecided, or sometimes they're just conflicted about an issue. Right? Because on the one hand, as an example, yeah, I think we absolutely need renewable energy. We need lots of, you know, solar panels, I just don't want them in my house, or we need lots of, you know, solar, renewable solar farms. I just don't want them all over the landscape that I cherish from my childhood. So there are many things that you know are underneath that are operating underneath for people that kind of create some conflict for them. So people, when we talk About the movable metal, really, I think what's important is to acknowledge that most people are concerned. They want when they support action, but they're undecided, potentially about one particular aspect or issue of it. Or there's some other kind of thing that's happening for them that's creating a conflict. Or they're kind of uninformed. So, you know, I think that you know, why an example? Or rather, I'll back up that uninformed piece is particularly important right now, as we see more and more kinds of organized misinformation and disinformation. Right. So as an example, when I'm in focus groups, I can predict with very, you know, a lot of certainty, what are some of the kinds of key narratives that are coming to the surface where people are kind of undecided? One of them might be, well, EV batteries are actually worse, you know, for the environment than, you know, driving a car, or there's no way that we're going to be able to electrify everything the grids can't support. Or it may be that solar panels actually create more emissions when you produce them than they save in their lifetime. So these kinds of things that are very dominant are kind of recurring pieces of information. And when people who are not thinking about this a lot or deeply, as much as maybe you were, I are people who are listening to this. So when people encounter these, this kind of information or confusion about what are the actual solutions? They really don't know what to think. Right? So like a third of us sit within that category, right? If I actually don't know how to make sense of the information that I'm hearing, right, and I don't trust so much of it. Because I know that, you know, I know about misinformation, I know that I shouldn't be, you know, you know, trusting everything that I hear, etc. So that's kind of the deal with the movable middle, right? So they believe climate change is real and not climate deniers. They just may be conflicted or undecided, or just not, you know, as informed because they're not thinking about it on a daily basis.

Dan Seguin 22:32

Now Amber, why is it important for the average communicator, like those in the energy sector, for example, to better understand the strategy behind climate change communications?

Amber Bennett 22:45

Yeah, um, I think because climate change is a super wicked problem, and is really complicated. And maybe me rambling on for the past 20 minutes might give folks a sense of the things that, you know, we were trying to think about and grapple with all at the same time. And so I would say that, in other cases, although arguably, I would argue that information, probably doesn't work it in on any issue. But what we do know, is just giving people information, they're not, you know, people can't reason their way into kind of behavior change. So, you know, we live within systems. You know, we live within communities where, you know, we're surrounded by friends and family, we see ourselves as kind of certain types of people. There are all of these kinds of social needs and emotional needs that humans bring to the table, that climate change communications, and I would argue, probably any good communications needs to attend to. So this sense of belonging, right, so I belong to a community. Other people like me think and act this way, or I expect other people like me to think and act this way. Being able to understand even what the problem is can kind of create shared understanding so that people who are making decisions aren't making decisions that don't consider you that kind of shared understanding peace. People need a sense of efficacy, control in their lives, they need some agency, they just don't need someone making all these decisions on their behalf without any involvement. You know, people want to be good people. And to be able to ask questions and to challenge things that are going to impact their lives without being dismissed as a climate denier or shamed or whatnot. And people trust others for different reasons, right. So scientists are highly tuned lasts. politicians aren't big corporations aren't, right. But the ones who are often leading this conversation in public are big corporations and politicians. So all of those are the things that we need to attend to when we think about, you know, climate communications, and because it's such a complicated problem, and extends to so many aspects of our life. And to be fair, there's a lot of organized opposition and strategies to create polarization to create misinformation. There's a lot happening all at the same time.

Dan Seguin 25:43

Okay, let me ask you this, what effect does it have to all be on the same page?

Amber Bennett 25:51

I often give the analogy of an orchestra, right, where we all have the same song sheet, but we're all playing different instruments. And part of that is, you know, there is a role for the government in setting regulation. And there's a role for activists and advocates to be, you know, opening up new possibilities, holding governments and corporations to account. But actually, we also need businesses to be building out the products and the services and the and the things that we'll be using in our lives. And you need all of these different actors operating all at the same time. And, you know, to live, I guess, within an ecosystem, so I'm very skeptical of how one message is the efficacy of one message, I think that really what is helpful is if people are exposed to and have the ability to make meaning out of climate change, and out of energy transition through many different parts of their lives, and they actually have many different avenues to talk about it and to create, you know, a shared understanding of what they want for their future, or where we're going.

Dan Seguin 27:23

Let's move to electrification, and renewable energy. Cool? These are important pieces of the world's response to climate change. For those in the energy sector who have a direct relationship with electricity consumers, is there a certain messaging that we should be sharing with our audiences?

Amber Bennett 27:47

Such a great question. I might change, I might have a different thought while I'm making a cup of tea, you know, in a couple of hours from now. But I think that there is a very, goes back to the question that we talked about with literacy. And also goes back to some of the things I mentioned around people needing to have a sense of control in their lives. Right. So what we know from the research is that people's motivation to do something as a whole has a lot less to do with their perception of risk than it does there because their perception of their ability to act, and that that action will make a difference. What people really, I would say, based on all the things that I look at and read and whatnot, want is a place to act that makes sense. And that is relevant to their lives. So I think for folks who work in electrification, work in renewable energy, a part of what we need right now is both to fill in all of the pixels around, like, where are we going? What is this going to look like in my daily life? What are the things that make sense for me to do right now? And how are the things that I'm doing making a difference within, you know, the broader community that I know and love and want to make sure it's safe and prosperous? And all of those things? So I think what we're, what we need, in part, are those people who are responsible for infrastructure, for services, for that kind of daily life to start filling in the pixels of what is this going to mean? Because people get a little stuck on, like, blind faith. We're just going to hand it over and other people make decisions. People want to have a conversation. They want to have a space where they can kind of create a shared understanding, right, like a public imagination of like, where are we going? And what's it going to be like when we get there? And what is it going to need in my daily life? And so I think that there's that part, like, what is this going to look like? And then I think the other part is, what are you asking me to do? And how is it gonna make a difference? For me and for my community, Canadians are very generous, right? They're willing to do stuff, even if it doesn't benefit them, if they really believe that it'll, you know, benefit the broader community or collective good, they'll step up. But I would argue that we haven't done a really good job of giving people tangible, practical, relevant things that do make a difference. Neither have we done a great job of filling out the vision of what this is gonna look like, right? It's kind of a little bit like a cliff at the moment, right? We're all going to transition to renewables. And we haven't filled in, what is that actually going to look like? Right? Am I going to have a gas station at the end of my street? I don't know. What is it going to look like? That's what I would say is storytelling, right? What's the story of what this is? How is this going to happen? And what it will look like when we get there.

Dan Seguin 31:27

Okay, Amber. I'm not sure if you're aware, but Hydro Ottawa has committed to being net zero by 2030. Does this kind of messaging resonate with the general public? Are there best practices in how to communicate this type of message in order to influence and maybe even promote change in our community?

Amber Bennett 31:51

Well, I would say if we kind of got back to, you know, when we think about Canadians, right, so I think that you've got a little section of folks who sit on one end, who net zero by 2030 makes a lot of sense. They understand what Net Zero is, they understand why you've chosen 2030. They understand what getting to net zero, you know, even means, however, it's likely that a section of those people are kind of skeptical. Why? Because they've been hearing a lot of targets, and not a lot of action, you know, for many, many decades. And then, so that's, you know, that one group, right, we start to see kind of dropping, you know, belief that, you know, it's possible, or that's going to happen. And then you have that whole other group in the middle that I was talking about, where net zero means absolutely nothing. The word the language, net zero means, you know, I'm being a little bit brutal, but it's true, right, where net zero doesn't really mean a whole lot. And, and neither does 2030, or the importance of it. And I think, you know, I sitting in a boardroom or a meeting room the other day, and we're talking about targets, and it really struck me when the person on the other side said, we know that this is ambitious, and we know that it's impossible, but we have to say it, because it's actually what science requires of us. These are not a political target, it's actually a scientific target, that we need to reduce emissions by this amount by this period in time, even if we'll never get there. That's what science requires of us. So I think all that to say, targets, I think are very helpful for administrators, for policy makers, for business leaders, etc. To help, you know, turn the ship, and to help start getting the kind of resourcing and planning and whatnot in place. But for the general public, what they actually want is what we were just talking about, tell me where we're going and tell me what I have to do. And tell me why it makes a difference.

Dan Seguin 34:17

Cool, Amber. You were a co-author on an incredibly helpful document entitled, climate messaging that works, talking about energy transition and climate change in Canada, which outlines the concept of message triangle. For me, it was a simple takeaway that could be immediately implemented into any communications surrounding climate change. Could you share the coles note of the message triangle with our listeners?

Amber Bennett 34:50

I can, and I would love to. And I suspect that, you know, there'll be parts of what I'm about to say that begin to resonate with some of the past things that I've said or are connected to. So really in a triangle, the underlying principle is that we're trying to create a whole story or a whole narrative for people. And that has a lot to do with how human beings and how we have evolved and how we make sense of the world, we make sense of the world through narrative and through stories. And so when we just give people one piece of something, it doesn't satisfy the way that we have been trained. Since, you know, the, since the beginning to kind of make sense of the world. So what we want to do is we want to give people a challenge that has to either be overcome, or that we're at risk of losing something. So there's a challenge, there's a choice that we have right now that we need to make. And then there's an opportunity. And if we can hit each piece of that triangle, what we're doing is we're creating a whole story for people, which allows them to make sense of why are you taking my time? And why should I listen to you? So you know, as an example, when we talk about the challenge, you know, part of this is really, I think, being more clear about the cause of climate change. But also, what are some of the challenges that we're seeing, that are related to climate change within our communities? You know, I was listening to a CBC program the other day, and there's an entire community in Newfoundland, that's actually moving back from the water. And this is, you know, after the aftermath of Hurricane Fiona and whatnot. So, you know, some of the challenges that we're seeing, what's the challenge that we're trying to overcome? And ideally, I would, right size that at a community scale, right? So people feel overwhelmed when it's my personal individual problem. But if we can begin to talk about this as a community challenge, then people are much more likely to engage because they don't feel like doing it all on their own. Similarly, a choice, right, as communicators, if we're talking specifically to communicators, we often leave out the choice at the moment, what is the call to action? What are you actually trying? What are you asking someone to do? Is it voted a certain way? Is it a conversation? If it takes a particular action, we need something, there's some sort of choice, and there's some sort of action that has to create tension within this story, right? All good stories have a choice that has to be made by the main, you know, character, and then the opportunity. And I think, you know, part of what I've been talking about around, where are we going? What's it going to look like when we get there is that opportunity. So if we're talking about the challenge, is, you know, we're seeing increasing extreme weather, that's because of burning fossil fuels and pollution, the trapping blanket, our choice right now is we need to electrify and that means building infrastructure, the opportunity that we have is at a community scale, both for you know, ourselves and and for others. This kind of, you know, whatever might be the relevance of it right, we'll have a more dependable electricity supply. You know, if we're all in EVs, and we have backup, you know, batteries in our cars, when the power goes out, you know, you've got a little mini generator that you can draw on that gives you electricity, you know, through the storm or something, whatever it might look like. But that's the point is that we're trying to create a full picture for people. We want to talk about, what's the challenge? What's the choice? And what's the opportunity on the other side?

Dan Seguin 39:22

Now, climate change has been a hot topic for oh, God, at least 20 years now. Are there any challenges with keeping an audience engaged and interested for so long?

Amber Bennett 39:36

Yeah, there's actually a woman out of the States who wrote an article. Her name is Suzanne Moser. And it's something I'm going to botch the title but it's something like, you know, Climate Communications 20 Years Later: What Have We Really Learned? And I think that in fairness, I think we've learned a lot, right? I think most people understand that it's more complicated than just giving people a brochure at this point. And I think that in 20 years, we've done a much better job of crystallizing, what is it that we need to do? However, there's also been 20 years of misinformation, 20 years of broken plans and not, you know, unachieved targets etc. And I was chatting with a woman the other day and, and she's like, because I kind of feel like forest fires and floods and hurricanes are doing the job that we used to do, you know, which is creating alarm and concern and demonstrating like, this is real. And it's a big problem. So I think in 20 years, we've had 20 years more of all of that. But we haven't, you know, but, but rather, I would say the job now in this moment, is the pathway, right? And giving people that kind of those choices, that control, and that sense of agency, that they can do something about it. And we need to get on with the action part, right. So we can't leave people in just concern. Because our minds can only hold so much anxiety and concern at one time, amongst all of the other things that we're concerned and anxious about, you know, climate change is just, you know, even more dreadful, particularly, I think, for younger people. So we can't, you know, people can only stay there for so long before they start to kind of check out because, as I go back, you know, I kind of mentioned it in the beginning. It's like our sense of whether or not we or our sense of motivation, or motivation to act has a lot more to do with our sense of being able to do something about it, rather than the risk that it that it proposes or that it is, so yeah. So, I would say the challenges of keeping people interested or if you can't give them something to do, then, you know, at a certain point, you kind of have to just check out of the conversation until, you know, you get clear about what are you asking me, and I think that this kind of anxiety is a real problem. And so the road for them, this moment really requires us to get much more clear about where we're going in the pathway forward.

Dan Seguin 42:52

Okay, Amber, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?

Amber Bennett 43:00

Ready to go? Okay,

Dan Seguin 43:03

What are you reading right now?

Amber Bennett 43:05

Wine Witch on Fire by Natalie Maclean, I think.

Dan Seguin 43:09

Okay, now, what would you name your boat? If you had one, maybe you do. Maybe you don't.

Amber Bennett 43:17

I don't have one. And it would be a miracle if I ever have one. So I'm going to name it a Miracle.

Dan Seguin 43:24

Who is someone that you truly admire?

Amber Bennett 43:28

This is kind of really out of left field, but I'm gonna go with it. So during COVID, there was a woman named Trinny Woodall who used to do What Not To Wear on the BBC. It was like one of the original kinds of reality programs, like one of those. And, you know, I'd love to be more philosophical than this. But I admire her because her whole... a) she works so hard, but also she just wants to make women of a certain age or any woman just feel good. And I really just admire someone whose life and business and purpose is really just trying to make other people see the goodness in themselves or to feel better about themselves. So she's, and she's also for any one who's interested. I mean, a social media magician, like she's, she's magic in terms of what she did. She started during COVID and kind of as a comms person, like, Yeah, amazing. Kind of how she has set herself up as an influencer.

Dan Seguin 44:42

Okay, Amber, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Amber Bennett 44:51

Magic? Yeah, this is hard. Okay, so just bear with me. Great start! This is not as rapid as you probably want. I'm moving houses. I bought a house. And there were two moments in like, one was do I put an offer in? Or do we put an offer in? And then there was another moment, kind of later on. And in both cases, I was about to say, I was going to pull back and say no, you know, I'm not going to go forward with it. And I kid you not, in that moment, the wind picked up. So in one case, I was outside and the wind picked up and got very, very strong where I was standing. So the first time you know, you can kind of blow it off. It's like, oh, yeah, okay, whatever. That was weird. But it happened twice. It happened a second time. And then the second time where I was, you know, kind of stuck. And, you know, wanting to retreat and I got a little, you know, scared about, you know, kind of taking the leap. And in that second time, the same thing happened, where the winds picked up, and they got a little bit stronger around me. And then they calmed down afterwards. And not in a like, oh, I kind of feel like no, it's kind of little, you know, it was very dramatic. And so anyways, I move houses tomorrow, so I'm gonna just put that out to magic. Not quite sure. It doesn't make a lot of logical sense. Why? Why did we do it? But we're there now.

Dan Seguin 46:26

Now, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Amber Bennett 46:32

Yeah, I'm, like so many parents. And I would argue women in particular, the double bind of having to take care of kids as though I don't work. And work even though I don't have kids. And I think for a lot of parents that was the impossible situation and I don't feel that that's really gone away.

Dan Seguin 47:02

This next one I always enjoy. What have you been watching a lot more of on Netflix or TV lately? What's your favorite? In other words, you know, what's your favorite movie or TV show?

Amber Bennett 47:17

I love the Peaky Blinders. And I've gone back and I've watched certain episodes again, just because they're so delicious with the costumes and the characters and the whole thing. I'm, yeah, totally enthralled. Yeah, love it. Okay.Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now. Um, I think that if anyone were to see my email inbox, they'd be very surprised at, you know, I think communion policy was the king for so long. And I think finally, we're at the point where we're beginning to understand that the public has to be on board, the public actually needs to have informed consent about so many of these choices. And we need a social mandate to ensure that climate action is the third rail, right? You know, if you're going to be a leader in this country, or business operating in this country, then you need to be a climate leader, and you need to be a climate business, it has to be fundamental to all of the decisions that you make, and how you and how you operate. Because science doesn't give us any other choice at this moment. So that's, so I think, the kind of realization that we can have all the technology and all the policy that we want, but if people aren't on board, then it's never going to happen. And so I get to work with very interesting people, unexpected from all walks of life, and you know, different sectors who are beginning to understand that, really, this is something we're going to work on until all of us and those beyond. For many generations, yeah.

Dan Seguin 49:12

Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, Amber, or your organization, how can they connect?

Amber Bennett 49:18

Yeah, well, easiest is to go to our website, so Re.Climate, so that's reclimate.ca. And folks can sign up there if they want to, you know, make sure that they get more information on events, and we do lots of, you know, webinars and talks and we release reports and, and whatnot. So that's a great thing to do. And I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn. So Amber Bennett, and I also share lots of things there. that I find interesting.

Dan Seguin 49:59

Well, Amber. This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Amber Bennett 50:08

Yeah. Great questions. Great chat. And thank you.

Dan Seguin 50:14

Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Extreme weather, cyber attacks, and disruptive technology pose growing threats worldwide. And energy companies are at higher risk. In Episode 121 of thinkenergy, we discuss the urgent need for crisis readiness in Canada’s energy sector. Guest Melissa Agnes, CEO of the Crisis Ready Institute, is an authority in crisis preparedness, reputation management, and brand protection. With experience spanning NATO to global non-profits, tune in for her insight on how to fortify your brand for turbulent times.

Related links

• Crisis Ready, by Melissa Agnes: https://melissaagnes.com/crisis-ready/
• Melissa Agnes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissaagnes/
• Melissa Agnes on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/melissa_agnes
• Crisis Ready Institute: https://crisisreadyinstitute.com/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is Think Energy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the think energy podcast. Within the energy sector, we've seen numerous companies rise and fall in the eyes of the public when confronted by crises for which they were unprepared. As climate change, cyber attacks and other threats wreak havoc, energy companies from around the world are finding themselves more susceptible to dealing with crises on a regular basis. Here in Ottawa, we've seen our city hit with major weather events, including tornadoes, floods, freezing rain, major thunderstorms, and durational. windstorm in the last few years alone. So, take it from a company that knows - a crisis communication plan cannot be drafted and filed away on a shelf to collect dust. It's a living document that has to be integrated across the entire organization. However, emergencies and crises are unpredictable and rarely unfold as rehearsed. So our crisis program has to be flexible and practical. In a fast moving event, it is important to make sure processes are as smooth as butter. How a company communicates during a crisis has changed dramatically during my career. From the rise of the Internet, social media, smartphones and voice technology to name just a few. These new channels present opportunities to connect with your audiences, we are now able to communicate instantly directly to the public in the event of a crisis. In our space, Hydro Ottawa is seen as an authority which enables us to frame the conversation appropriately. At the same time, during a crises, all eyes are on us. And we better shine. As Warren Buffett said, it takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. The Internet, and the communication channels that come with it also present challenges, namely, information overload. Everyone is now vying for your attention. Given all the information out there, you don't want to just be more noise, you need to stand out. So here is today's big question. If

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your phone rings tomorrow, and you're suddenly confronted with a major crises, are you and your business prepared to handle it? Do you know what steps to take to mitigate that damage? So joining me today, I have a leading authority on crisis preparedness, reputation management and brand protection. She is the founder and CEO of the Crisis Ready Institute and the author of Crisis Ready Building an Invincible Brand in an uncertain world. My very special guest today has worked with NATO Ministries of Foreign Affairs and Defense financial firms, technology companies, health care organizations, cities and municipalities, law enforcement agencies, the global nonprofit, and many others. She is a guest lecturer at universities around the world and also sits on the Global Advisory Council for the Institute for strategic risk management. Dear listeners, please welcome Melissa, Agnes. Melissa, maybe you could start by sharing with our listeners your journey into crisis management, what's a crisis management strategist? And how did you get where you are today? Lastly, what does it mean to be crisis ready?

Melissa Agnes 04:34

Okay, the three part question and I'm going to do my best to be as succinct as possible. So crisis management strategist- I view it that way. Crisis communication strategist, crisis leadership. Like I view the strategy part of it to say that it's not just reactive, right? You're not being simply reactive where you're being hit with something and you're reacting to something. You are- you need to be strategic in the way that you respond to crisis, as well as in the way that you prepare to respond to crisis. So that's the whole premise of being crisis ready, which was the third part of your question. So that's what a strategist comes in. And I'll add that it's not about, you know, PR people might look at or if people might associate it with PR and spin. It's not that at all. It's not about manipulation. It's about looking at the long term of what's happening, and essentially the relationships that matter to the organization, and looking at a crisis through a lens that says, 'What's the best way for us to respond now and over the long term", which I'm sure we'll dive more into intense conversation in a way that keeps us building strengthening trust. With your question in regards to what is does it mean to be crisis ready? The answer is right there. So crisis ready is a term that I coined well over a decade ago, because I was dissatisfied with the status quo of crisis preparedness, which is pretty much a through line throughout my entire career, as my career is based off of frustration and I don't like to complain, so I don't like complain about something and not provide a solution. So my career is always around, like what's happening in the world, what really, really doesn't just doesn't sit right with me. And then what can I do in my way to contribute right to make things better? So the crisis ready came from the frustration that crisis preparedness, quote, unquote, crisis preparedness, which the was the more common kind of terminology for it within our profession, or within the industry was about having a plan, checking that box off, that leadership could say, like, Okay, we've got a crisis management plan, or we've got a crisis communication plan, we're set. And I knew 15 years ago, 14 years ago, when I started this, that made no sense to me. So I turned the coin crisis ready to give it a specific definition, which is it's a cultural approach. It's not just about having a plan. It's about building out programs and ingraining them into the culture of the organization. So that every single member of every single team in every single department and every single division and every single region, has the skill set has the mindset and has the capabilities to identify risk and its onset, to then figure out what to do with it, like categorize it, know what to do with it. So is it an issue? Is it a crisis? What do I do? And then effectively responding to the

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incident or the situation in a way that, yes, it de escalates it quickly, yes you mitigate long term material impact, but more over that piece with crisis ready, that's very unique and very important, is you respond in a way that strengthens trust.

Dan Seguin 07:45

Okay. Sorry. Now, this is another two part question.

Melissa Agnes 07:50

Let's do it.

Dan Seguin 07:51

When a crisis hits, the last thing we want is for a company to bury their heads in the sand. Having said that, is there such a thing as a manageable framework for effective crisis communications? Next, here's my other question. When might that framework help an organization deal with an actual event? communicate in real time and deal with stakeholders like elected officials, the media, employees and constituents?

Melissa Agnes 08:25

Okay, so the first part of that question is, is there such thing as a manageable framework for effective crisis communication? Absolutely yes, because I teach it. That's what we do we help. So essentially, are Crisis Ready Institute exists, because there is a lack or there's a void of actually teaching the essentials for crisis communication and crisis leadership, in any aspect of our academic lives. We're not taught these things no matter what, you know, it's very, very, very rare. And if you have been taught, it was likely very recently, and probably not even to the level that I would really give it that stamp of approval, unfortunately. So yes, all of that to say that that is what Crisis Ready Institute does, that is a big part of what I do is I see complex subject matter and skills, and I'm able to kind of put them into formulas and frameworks and different things that make it make them just more comprehensible. Is that a word? That's a word, right? That's an English word. Easier to understand, easier to truly conceptualize and giving a formula for okay, it's like until that skill level is at the point that we want it to be, where its intrinsic, and it's reflexive and it's just like, something happens and you know how to respond. That you want to have those 1-2-3 steps that are actually applicable. So yes, and then this second part of your question was, I mean, the crisis ready framework is designed to be scalable from issue straight through to crisis. So obviously, we teach for the worst case scenarios. But if you can respond to the worst case scenarios in a way that, again, de escalates the situation quickly, mitigates long term material impact, and strengthens trust within the organization, both internally and externally. So essentially, strengthening brand equity, building brand equity as a result of the crisis management. Then if you can do that, in the worst times, you can do that - you can apply all of the same tactics, all of the same techniques, all of the same strategies, in issue management. And in doing that, so like the lesser degree type of situation, materially impactful type of situation. So taking that, and when you are able to do that, first of all, obviously, you nip issues in the bud, like really quickly. And secondly, the organizations that are really truly crisis ready they are less vulnerable, to crises and to risks and to, you know, the things happening because they know they have, again, it's the mindset, the skills and the

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capability to respond. And the frameworks that we have at Crisis Ready Institute are designed to be one scalable, but also building blocks. So you learn the fundamentals. And you learn how to apply them in different types of situations and scenarios with different types of mindsets and emotions and all of these different facets that play into crisis management.

Dan Seguin 11:32

Okay. How vital is it for an organization to maintain their social licence to operate? How does one safeguard its reputation?

Melissa Agnes 11:43

Okay, well, I think that you are the perfect person to answer that question. I mean, how vital is your social licence to operate, right? Like, that's reputation. That's trust. That social licence to operate, it's in the name, you can't really have a successful business in certain industries without it. And it's all about trust. It's all about - you and I were just talking about this right before we hit record, right? It's all about how much trust do you build prior to a crisis? And how well do you know how to respond to that trust remains and hopefully even strengthens as a result of effective crisis management? When it comes down to, for me, with the way that I see it to, like, simplify it as much as possible, is that strong business, solid business, successful business is built and developed on like, strong relationships. Right. So that's the social licence to operate, if you want to look at it that way. Crisis Management is about doing right by those very relationships. When it matters most when you're put to the test. It's all about trust.

Dan Seguin 12:53

If the communications plan is a living organism that helps you navigate through any disruption. Is it safe to say that it's not about dusting off that plan that just sits on that bookshelf?

Melissa Agnes 13:11

Absolutely. Things happen too fast. Things happen too fast things happen outside of the realm of what we planned for, or what we may have imagined it to be, or unfold as anybody who had a crisis management plan. And I'm saying plan, like, I'll use the words program and culture and skill set and mindset capabilities to talk about crisis ready, right. But if we're looking at it through the crisis, preparedness, going back to the start of our conversation, lens of like, let's check off that box. And let's just have that plan. Plans are linear, they're siloed. They're theoretical, more than they are practical, they become obsolete pretty much the second you put them on the shelf. And they're not ingrained. Things happen so quickly, they escalate so quickly, that to be looking around going like, oh, where's where's the plan that I think that one day, once upon a time we created, like, let's look at that and try to see. Already you're suffering Crisis Response penalty as a result of that, because you're not being effective with your time in terms of response. So anybody who had that type of plan prior to COVID, as an example, quickly, unfortunately realized and learned the hard way. How ineffective that mindset that approach is, so we really, really want to look at crisis ready as a program as a skill set as the mindset is capability that's ingrained into the culture of the organization.

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Dan Seguin 14:34

Okay, Melissa, now, let me ask you this. How can an organization transform crisis readiness into a competitive advantage?

Melissa Agnes 14:46

That's a really great question. This is one of those things that like it's really hard to sell what I do - Crisis Ready - because effectively what you're doing is you're trying to sell insurance to people who, who aren't obliged to pay purchase insurance right and human nature states that we don't want to look we want to avoid, we don't want to look at what's challenging or what's scary, or what makes us really uncomfortable, especially if we're not thrown into it and like being faced with it in the moment. So like, life is good, business is good, why would you want to look for it? Or look at what makes you uncomfortable? And the what if the downsides of the what ifs? That's really hard. And one of the ways that I've learned to do that to to sell it essentially, isn't answering that question is looking at what is the value of being crisis ready? What does it do to the team, to the culture to the morale internally, what does it do with regards to trust. And just having that culture that you know, something minor goes wrong, but you have this culture that sees that as an opportunity to strengthen relationships and to evolve as an organization as a service provider, or, you know, a product creator. So all of these different facets of like, what it means to be crisis ready with the core values assigned with crisis ready are and how they lay out day to day, not just to effectively manage crisis when it happens, or even mitigate crisis from happening. But what's the value that it brings internally and externally to increase? We'll go back to the word brand equity of your organization, there's a massive competitive advantage in those answers.

Dan Seguin 16:35

Okay, now, a little while back, I attended your amazing, it is truly amazing, a 10 week course on honing your crisis communication and leadership skills, where you stated, if I recall, that you cannot put emotion over logic. What is the role and power of emotion within issue and crisis management.

Melissa Agnes 17:00

So you can't let's let's let's flip it, you can't put logic over emotion. So the crisis ready rule is, you cannot beat emotion with logic. So just to make that clear. Emotion plays a major role in any type of crisis for every person involved, whether you're the leadership team, whether you're, you know, the members of the team who are doing different roles within managing the crisis, whether you're an outside impacted party by the crisis, you don't have a motion, you don't have crisis for that emotion. Meanwhile, you cannot beat emotion with logic. So you're speaking to as a leader, as a communicator, in times of crisis, you stand up, you rise up, and you communicate with your stakeholders who are being affected by the crisis in one way or another. Those people who are affected by the crisis in one way or another, are highly emotional, right? They have emotion and probably very deep, very real, very deep seated emotion running through them. What happens to us as human beings is emotion then comes to the forefront we're emotional beings, as human beings, no matter how logical or cerebral or rational we believe ourselves to be, we're still emotional beings, because we're human beings is the nature of how and who we are at what happens is when those high intensity, quote unquote, negative emotions kick

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into gear they come forefront, and they kind of they cloud judgment. I see it as the heart kind of coming up harping emotion coming up, and like putting this cloud around the brain, where you can't just speak or spew out logic, because the emotions are blocking it. It's clouding judgment, it's doing all kinds of things that a lot of leaders stand up and in those times, they just, they think that they just have to keep hammering out the truth and hammering out the facts that keep repeating the same things over in a very logical way. But they're missing the emotion, the emotional relatability, or the emotional, intelligent effect of it. And so in order to be able to communicate and lead effectively through crisis, you have to understand, know how to, first of all, understand emotion, the different types of emotions that that we have as an experience of being human. Understand how those like most emotions reside in our bodies, how they work, understand how to anticipate the emotions of your stakeholders, to the most extent possible. And then you have to be skilled in the ability to communicate in a way that puts the emotion first so that you can dissipate that cloud that is clouded like that's in front of the brain. I'm like doing this you can't see me when I'm like doing this visual in front of my face. But you want to dissipate that cloud that's blocking that's clouding judgment so that then you can speak to the rational, then you can speak to the logical. But trying to stand upon times of crisis when everybody is hyper emotional, and just spew out facts, you are going to miss the mark, you're not going to succeed the way that you can and should succeed.

Dan Seguin 20:11

Now Melissa, to ensure crisis readiness, how critical is it for companies to identify high risk scenarios? And pushing this further? Should we be looking at defining the different triggers and thresholds of impact?

Melissa Agnes 20:30

I would say so, first of all, identifying high risk scenarios is a part of the framework for crisis ready. So yes, so for anybody who may not understand that terminology, it's really what we're looking at is your most likely high impact types of events, situations that can put your organization into a crisis. We all have them as human beings, we all have them as organizations, as companies, as brands, whatever, however you want to word that. So yes, very, very, very important part of being crisis ready as you go through the motions. So let's say you identify just, you know, five high risk scenarios, the most likely high impact types of events to that you are susceptible or vulnerable to as an organization. Let's say you identify five. Go through the motions and part of being crisis ready is to go through the motions and becoming crisis ready for each of those five. Now, yes, absolutely. A sixth event can come out of nowhere and blindside you. But the whole going back to mindset skill set capability and culture is because you've gone through or asked. Once you've gone through the motions of truly becoming crisis ready for all of those five high risk scenarios. When the sixth one comes in, you know, turns around and hits you, or blindsides you and hitting you, you are so ready, your team is so skilled, you have everything that you need, and that it takes to be able to effectively respond to that sixth scenario, in the best timeframe as possible. So yes, identifying them doing the work to better understand them. And then in that answer the second part of that question, in that you will be looking at what would be indicators? So, so yes, triggers and indicators? And what are the thresholds of impact? So you're looking at a situation, say such a situation A, and you're saying 'At what point would situation crisis

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Scenario A be an issue for our organization? And at what point would it be a crisis?' You're really defining painting a picture of what those differences are? And then you're doing a deeper dive with the with the team and saying, Okay, what's the difference there? What are the criteria? What is the criteria that really made that customer past the threshold of issue to crisis? So you're trying to understand to the most extent possible, what are you know, what are the different aspects that make something a crisis for your organization, remembering that a crisis for one does not necessarily translate into a crisis for all.

Dan Seguin 23:07

Now, in times of major disruptions, like a power outage, or maybe even a cyber event, scanning your landscape is critical. Any recommendations on how companies should look at monitoring the social landscape and mainstream media?

Melissa Agnes 23:28

I think it should really go back to you, Dan. I think you guys do a phenomenal job at this. I mean, there's a lot to look at, and making sure that you have your baselines set up so that you know what a peak or valley looks like. You can detect it. I'd also say it's not just, you know, people go like, should we monitor every platform? Should we monitor, there's so many platforms, there's so many this, there's so many that, there's so many hashtags, so many, etc. It's really understanding your stakeholders and where you're where you have presence, right, and where that presence has impact because just because something - so one, just because something goes viral does not make it a crisis. That's not the criteria that makes it a crisis. That can be a viral issue, and not a viral crisis, right? Or a viral issue and not a crisis. And then too, just because something gets negative attention in one platform, if you don't have your course for stakeholder like the people who really mattered to the success and vitality of your business, on those platforms, and those people never hear about it, you might just have a whole bunch of haters that just aren't getting any traction. This is also about understanding what you're monitoring where, you're monitoring and why you're monitoring those, what in those squares. And then I think a third piece, I think that was two things. A third piece that I would add that is really understanding and I think this is a lot of where companies are getting it wrong right now - is understanding what is happening in the world that you transformations, the evolutions that are happening in the world and how they may or may not impact your relationship with your stakeholders, your relationship with your brand, the reputation of your organization, and to look at and be like, Oh, that's, you know, this conversation, this societal conversation or this Hot Topic doesn't apply to us to just look at something and be like, No, it doesn't apply to us without doing a deeper dive into how it might actually apply to you and how it might actually be important to the people who are important to your business is something that a lot of leaders, a lot of companies are missing the mark on right now.

Dan Seguin 25:39

Cool. Melissa, can you share with us some simple takeaways, for example, what are some of the biggest and most common mistakes an organization should avoid?

Melissa Agnes 25:52

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One of them is what we just said. Some other ones, I'll go to what we call at Crisis Ready Institute with call the CRP- the Crisis Response Penalty. So that term came out of my book, as I was writing my book, and what we're looking at there is, the longer you take to effectively respond, and I'll define what effective response is in a second. So the longer you take to effectively respond to a crisis, the more pressing credibility, you destroy the more ownership of the narrative you lose, and the more material impact you suffer. So that is the crisis response penalty, it is the penalties or the consequences of not responding properly. And effective response requires the right actions to be taken to actually fix remedy sold for you know, stop the bleeding, right the wrongs, etc, while you simultaneously communicate the way that you need to communicate and with whomever you need to be communicating with. And all of that has to happen. So actions and communications have to happen in the right timeline, and simultaneously. So if you falter on any one of those, then you're going to fail in your crisis management. And one of the biggest, most common mistakes to avoid so specifically to answer that it happened specifically to answer your question is the communication piece, because for the reasons that we've kind of already just highlighted, which are the vulnerability, the the fact that it's so uncomfortable, the fact that it's so vulnerable, the fact that people haven't been taught how to communicate with high EQ so that you can communicate through the emotions and actually resonate with the people you need to resonate with, so that they trust you and they follow your leadership? So yeah, I mean, we could go on and on and on, and on and on talking about the pitfalls to avoid. But even just looking at it as a framework of that crisis response penalty, what that means, what is involved in making sure you don't suffer a crisis response penalty, and making sure that your team has, again, the mindset, the skill set and the capability to not make those mistakes.

Dan Seguin 28:06

Cool. That's a great segue, Melissa. Before signing off here, I'm hoping you can maybe share what are some of the requirements for a strong and effective narrative during a crises, but also ways to ensure we maintain that consistent tone, and stay on message.

Melissa Agnes 28:29

I mean, we there's a formula that we use at Crisis Ready Institute, which is an it would take about, yeah, we could go into detail in it if we wanted to, but we teach it, it takes a while. But we really want to look at validate understanding emotions, validating those motions, relating to those emotions, and then coming in with your logic. And when you come in with your logic or your rationale, and you know, the directives and all the things that are very cerebral versus emotional, you want to make sure that you're having this balance of providing reassurance, providing hope, and having the courage to hold that space, that uncomfortable space, where the emotion sets. So as a framework, super high level, that's what you want to be making sure you're hitting, and I want to make sure that I answer your question properly. So strong narrative. So having that, having that framework will help to keep you addressing the things that are important to address that a lot of times leaders and communicators don't feel comfortable doing so they avoid them, which creates CRP Crisis Response penalty. And when you're doing that, you're doing that balance of risk providing reassurance, and hope and courage you're looking at. So just say, where you said I had to help maintain a consistent tone and stay on message. That's where you make sure that you're always checking in you're doing that you also want to make

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sure, so part of that is understanding what actually want what actually matters to people and making sure you're hitting those points, but also anticipating, anticipating the questions, anticipating the concerns, anticipating the fears and all of these, you know, things that we can anticipate if we take the time and put the attention to doing that, and making sure that you're getting ahead of the things that you can get ahead of, so that you're not always playing catch up.

Dan Seguin 30:27

Okay, very cool. Melissa, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

Melissa Agnes 30:35

I'm ready. Let's do it.

Dan Seguin 30:37

Now, maybe you could start us off by sharing with our listeners. What are you reading right now?

Melissa Agnes 30:44

I actually just finished reading it. It's called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks and I highly, highly, highly recommend it.

Dan Seguin 30:50

Okay, next one, Melissa. Who is someone that you admire?

Melissa Agnes 30:55

I admire a lot of people. My significant other I admire him greatly. People on my team I admire greatly. There's a lot of people that I admire.

Dan Seguin 31:05

Okay. What is your favorite movie or show?

Melissa Agnes 31:09

On right now? Oh, man. I mean, I would say like Friends to me is like my all time favorite. What have we watched recently? We watched - I'm so bad with names and remembering this stuff. Silo was good. Shrinking was good. There was one recently there's one with Amanda Seyfried that I really enjoyed. I was sick last week and I like binged it over the weekend because I just got better. That one was called the Crowded Room. Yeah, I think there's a bunch of good things out right now. Oh, we just watched over the weekend we watched it's a movie about dogs, what's it called - Strays! With their like the voices of ...I don't know but strays, however, I will say that it looks like it's it's family friendly. But it is not. Don't let your kids watch it. It's very adult friendly. But it's hilarious.

Dan Seguin 32:03

Okay, next one, aside from necessities. What one thing could you not go without in a day?

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Melissa Agnes 32:12

Okay this sounds so corny but emotional connection with my significant other. We travel a lot so I think checking in with each other, like just tapping in and making sure that - he's different from me in that I kind of get my good mornings and my good nights and things like that. I don't think I could go without those.

Dan Seguin 32:30

Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now.

Melissa Agnes 32:35

Oh, exciting, and that frustrated me. Um, the thing that I'm working on right now I'm working on, you know, I'm calling it my quote unquote, next big thing. That's really exciting to me. So new content, new things that are coming, that I think will, again, stemmed from a frustration in the world. And we touched a little bit on some of it during this conversation, but the, um, it'll be my next book. It'll be my next TEDx Talk. It'll be a whole bunch of things. And that's, that's kind of keeping me fired up. I'm very excited about that.

Dan Seguin 33:06

Well, Melissa, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, your organization, how can they connect?

Melissa Agnes 33:19

Melissa Agnes, I'm on social. I'm primarily on LinkedIn, definitely. IG definitely. That's pretty much it. Where I'm like, actually active and then crisisreadyinstitute.com Or just crisisready.com. You can find all kinds of stuff there as well as to connect with me.

Dan Seguin 33:36

Again, Melissa, thank you very much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Melissa Agnes 33:41

I did. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me.

Dan Seguin 33:44

Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

View Details

As demand for electricity increases, the need to diversify supply is also on the rise. In Episode 120 of thinkenergy, Lesley Gallinger, CEO of Ontario's Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), unpacks what’s driving the transformation of the province’s power system, the potential opportunities, and the obstacles standing in the way. From hydrogen innovation to resource procurement, listen in to learn how the IESO is helping Ontario navigate to a cleaner, reliable, and affordable energy future.

Related links

● Lesley Gallinger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-gallinger-784a194/

● Lesley Gallinger on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lmgallinger

● IESO website: https://www.ieso.ca/

● Hydrogen Innovation Fund: https://www.ieso.ca/en/Get-Involved/Innovation/Hydrogen-Innovation-Fund/Overview

● Powering Ontario’s Growth report: https://www.ontario.ca/page/powering-ontarios-growth

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TRANSCRIPT:

Daniel Seguin:

This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In 1902 electrical pioneers met for the first time in Berlin now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss wiring Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Ontario's electricity grid, like all grids around the world was designed as a one way street, to generate, transmit, and deliver electricity to customers. It's no secret that nowadays new technologies are shaking up the way we produce and use electricity. Back then, these pioneers likely couldn't have imagined that the electricity grid would become a two way interactive system capable of supporting variable supply from renewable energy or accommodating electric vehicles, energy storage, home generation, and a host of other innovations. As the demand for electricity grows, Ontario's supply is diversifying, evolving and transforming at a speed we haven't seen in this industry. One thing is for certain, it's going to be one electrifying ride. On today's show, we're diving into the heart of Ontario's power system and shining a light on the organization that manages the province electricity sector. As we mentioned before, we are at the forefront of a power revolution. Of course, we need someone driving the ship to provide guidance on how Ontario's power system adopts a cleaner and more interactive machine. So here's today's big question. What is driving the transformation of Ontario's power system? And what are the potential opportunities and challenges? Joining us today is Lesley Gallinger, president and chief executive officer of the Ontario Independent Electricity System Operator. Under her leadership, the IESO oversees the safe and reliable operation of Ontario's bulk electricity system, ensuring affordable electricity is available when and where people need it. Lesley, so great to have you join us today. Now, your knowledge and experience of the electricity industry is extensive. Can you talk to us a bit about what drew you to a career in energy sector? And what led you to your current role?

Lesley Gallinger:

Well, thank you for that, Dan. It's great to be here, and I have spent the majority of my career in the electricity sector after spending the first third in a different sector. I certainly benefited from working all across North America and in Europe, for some very sophisticated multinational organizations with very talented team members. However, I always had this interest in electricity. And just for a funny story, my first grade school in Ontario was Sir Adam Beck, so I wonder if that was a bit of foreshadowing. But in reality, I had friends and colleagues in the sector who spoke quite passionately about the impact they were making with the work they were doing. And I was attracted to that. And sure I had some skills that I thought would be transferable. And the role that I have now embodies all of that, as we at the IESO are helping inform and execute on energy policy on electricity policy, specifically that will support Ontarians as we transition to an electrified and decarbonized future. I honestly couldn't imagine a better role to be in at this moment.

Daniel Seguin:

At a high level Lesley, what is the Independent Electricity System Operator and what is it responsible for with respect to Ontario's power system?

Lesley Gallinger:

The IESO works at the heart of Ontario's electricity system, ensuring that electricity is available where and when it is needed. We monitor Ontario's demand in real time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, balancing supply and demand and directing the flow of electricity across the provinces transmission lines. We also oversee the electricity market, which includes putting mechanisms in place to increase competition and ensure cost effective supply. And finally, we also plan the electricity system by working with indigenous communities, with municipalities and stakeholders to forecast demand and secure enough supply to meet Ontario's needs as far as 20 years out.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay, very interesting. Finally, looking forward to your answer on this one here. Can you walk us through how you oversee and manage the electricity systems such as determining the type of supply required to meet demand for electricity in the province? In the short, medium, and long term?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, thanks that that is a good and big meaty question. So we've spoken a lot about where we are now. So after having years of surplus electricity, Ontario is entering a period of growing electricity needs and demand is expected to increase by an average of 2% annually over the next two decades due to electrification and economic growth in various sectors, including residential, agricultural, and mining. One way that the IESO helps meet these growing needs is by securing new supply. In the short term, we have the annual capacity auction that we conduct that allows existing resources to compete. This is cost effective and allows the IESO to adapt to changing supply and demand conditions on a year by year basis. We also look at three to five year commitments for other resources, this timeframe provides more certainty while ensuring it doesn't get locked into commitments that no longer reflect those changing needs of electrification. And finally, in the long term, we look 20 years out to secure resources that require significant upfront investments in order to give suppliers the confidence they need to make those investments. So it's a bit of a layer cake with those three timeframes.

Daniel Seguin:

Great segway here. Okay. What do you see as the IESOs role in the future planning of the evolving electricity grid and your role in supporting the changing energy needs of the decarbonized economy?

Lesley Gallinger:

As Ontario's electricity system planner, we certainly have the long view. Our role is to ensure that Ontario's current and future energy needs are met both reliably and affordably. Our corporate strategy calls out three main ways in which we do this we ensure system reliability while supporting cost effectiveness, we're driving business transformation within the IESO and also driving and guiding the sector's future by working closely with indigenous communities, municipalities and stakeholders. On the decarbonisation front, our main role is to enable technologies that will help us decarbonize. There's lots of emerging energy resources that can help us build a zero emissions electricity grid and the IESO ensures that these resources can all participate in Ontario's electricity system and markets. We're procuring new resources under our flexible resource adequacy framework. We recently announced the procurement of over 800 megawatts of energy storage, which is the largest energy procurement energy storage procurement in Canada to date, that combined with 250 megawatts of the Oneida battery storage project, the IESO, with these projects, is taking steps to integrate this valuable and flexible resource. And in last December's publication of pathways to decarbonisation, we explored ways in which Ontario can move forward to an emissions-free electricity system. The Ministry of Energy consulted on our pathways report, and recently on July 10, very recently, announced a series of actions in its report powering Ontario's growth. And those actions include collaborating with Bruce Power and Ontario Power Generation on pre development work to to consider potential new nuclear generation reporting back on the design of our second long term procurement, which will acquire new non-emitting resources supporting a Ministry of Energy consultation on a post 2024 Conservation Demand Management Framework and assessing additional transmission needs to support new and growing generation and demand in the province. So quite a list of workforce ahead that we're very excited to undertake. And as our system operator for the province, we're certainly at the center of all of this. There'll be a continuing need for coordination with the broader electricity sector in order to plan an orderly transition to a decarbonize grid, there will also be an increased need to revisit how we plan the electricity system. The IESO is looking forward to working with the electrification and energy transition panel to identify ways to adapt and evolve existing frameworks in order to increase transparency and ensure communities and stakeholders are more aware of what we're doing and why. This work, the work of the EETP also takes a broader economy wide view, which reflects how the electricity sector is becoming increasingly dependent on other sectors like industry and transportation. So you know, in short, a lot of work and some very exciting work ahead.

Daniel Seguin:

Follow up question here for you. Now, some Ontarians are concerned about moving to variable renewable energy sources like wind and solar, while others are concerned about continuing use of natural gas. What have you uncovered in your work about these issues? And what would you like residents of Ontario to know?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah great question Dan, every type of generation has its own strengths and drawbacks based on its unique attributes, which is why Ontario maintains a diverse supply mix that can adapt to changing system conditions quickly. Renewables such as wind and solar are not emitting when they generate electricity, but they're also intermittent, meaning how much electricity they produce can change rapidly in response to weather conditions. And to help with this, the IESO is looking into hybrid facilities that combine renewables with energy storage. By 2026 we'll also have about 1300 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, which will help more efficiently integrate renewables. We're also going to start designing our second long term procurement which will focus on acquiring non-emitting resources and we'll be engaging on this with stakeholders and communities as we go. Natural gas, for example, has the main advantage that it can respond quickly to change in demand and system conditions, making it an important resource for us as we seek to maintain reliability. Ontario's demand fluctuates constantly throughout the day, and having access to natural gas can help us respond to sudden changes and maintain a balance across the system. It's also very important to recognize and something I'd like to emphasize for your listeners that overall emissions from Ontario's electricity sector are extremely low, the sector accounts for about 3% of the provinces total emissions. While this may increase slightly in the future, the continued existence of natural gas on the grid is an important resource to help us transition and it'll enable the near term electrification of other sectors which in total will drive down Ontario's emissions.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay Lesley, how will the efficiency upgrades at existing natural gas facilities contribute to meeting the growing demand? And what is the plan for these facilities as emerging technologies mature and the reliance on natural gas decreases?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yes, and as I mentioned in my earlier remarks, Ontario's definitely entering a period of increased demand and so with many existing contracts expiring, and nuclear plants undergoing refurbishment or scheduled to be decommissioned, coupled with increasing electrification of other sectors, the province is going to need more power in the immediate future and the natural gas expansions can help with this. In our pathways to decarbonisation report, we looked at the questions the minister posed to us, we looked at a moratorium scenario that would phase out natural gas over time as newer non-emitting resources come online, and in the report we concluded that we could be less reliant on natural gas in Ontario by the year 2035 and completely phased out by 2050. Efforts were made to align this report with clean electricity regulations, and that recognizes that the contribution of natural gas may be restricted over time, but for the meantime, we have you know, the important transitional resource needs, the natural gas fulfills.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay. In May of 2023, the IESO announced that it was moving forward with the largest procurement of energy storage in Canada. What can you tell us about these storage projects and their benefits?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, this was a very exciting announcement for us the energy storage projects we announced in May were for grid connected battery storage systems, which will be an important step towards the transition to a non-emitting supply mix, and will support grid reliability. The procurement was the culmination of the work we've done over the last several years to understand the potential of battery storage to provide supply and reliability services to the grid. The biggest advantage of energy storage is that it can charge during off peak hours when the provincial electricity demand is low and then inject energy back into the grid during peaks when demand is high, which makes it very flexible and a resource that can help us optimize the efficiency of other resource types. And we also see battery storage as a key enabler of decarbonisation. It will help us to integrate more renewables such as wind and solar onto the system, but also get more out of our current nuclear and hydro fleet. By charging during these off peak hours energy storage can use up any surplus green power from Ontario's existing nuclear and hydro facilities.

Daniel Seguin:

Now, how does this procurement help ensure system reliability during nuclear refurbishment and support the overall energy transformation in Ontario,

Lesley Gallinger:

The procurement will help with the transition away from natural gas and it's certainly about maintaining reliability at a time when multiple refurbishments are underway. In particular, the Pickering generating station is scheduled to go out of service mid decade and so right around that time, those energy storage projects are expected to be online. Certainly the timelines of the procurements were aligned understanding what the system conditions would be at that time, Lesley, I'd like to dig into your fascinating pathway to decarbonisation report just a bit. Ontario has one of the cleanest electricity system in North America, contributing only 3% to the provinces greenhouse gas emissions, that doesn't sound like a lot. So why is it important to eliminate the remaining 3% of emissions from the grid? Yeah, another another really interesting question and the subject of a lot of conversations we've been having we know that electricity use is going to increase in the coming years driven by an economic growth and electrification across other sectors. Transportation is becoming increasingly electrified as our industrial processes such as steel smelting, and as the pace of electrification speeds up the efforts and investments being made by businesses and households to electrify will increase society's reliance on electricity as a fuel and electricity is only as clean as the resources we use to make it. So that 3%, if we don't tackle that remaining 3%, we will see an increased reliance on less clean generating sources. I mean tackling climate change is certainly an economy wide effort and clean electricity is a fundamental enabler of those climate change solutions.

Daniel Seguin:

Thanks for that, Lesley. Now, I have a follow up question for you. The IESO presents two scenarios to address decarbonisation, what are they and what key assumptions and drivers were discovered with your analysis?

Lesley Gallinger:

So our first scenario was the moratorium scenario where the IESO so looked at restricting the procurement of additional natural gas. And this assessment showed that a moratorium would be feasible beginning in 2027, and that Ontario could be less reliant on natural gas by 2035. At that point, the system would not require additional emitting generation to ensure reliability provided that other forms of non-emitting supply could be added to the system in time to keep pace with demand growth. The second scenario is our pathways to decarbonisation scenario, this scenario assumed aggressive electrification of the transportation and industrial sectors, and that attaining a completely decarbonized grid would be possible by 2050, while balancing reliability and costs, so you can see a lot of variables came to play in that second scenario.

Daniel Seguin:

Perfect. Thanks, Lesley. Now, what are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 and 2050 targets?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, I think that's, you know, that's what we're all looking towards and bridging the work of today with the needs of a futurized decarbonized world will be challenging and complex, a collaborative approach across all sectors of the economy will certainly be necessary to achieve this. From Ontario's perspective, we're in a strong starting position, our electricity system is already close to 90% emissions free, most of the generation coming from Hydro and Nuclear resources. And in our pathways report, we identify that for Ontario, at least, a moratorium on natural gas could be possible by 2035, and a fully decarbonized electricity system by 2050 provided that new non-emitting supplies and surfaces online. So we certainly had those goals in mind for Ontario as we created that pathway so decarbonisation work.

Daniel Seguin:

Now Lesley, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges facing the electricity industry in Canada today? And what are the biggest opportunities?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, I anchor on the word orderly because I've used it a lot. The biggest challenge I see is managing the significant transformation that's underway. And doing it in an orderly fashion, electrification is requiring the electricity system to expand and produce more power, while decarbonisation puts pressure on the grid to rely more heavily on low carbon resources, many of which are still in their early days of development. Across the country. Every province is faced with similar challenges. The recently formed Canadian Electricity Advisory Council will provide advice to the Minister of natural resources on ways to accelerate investment and promote sustainable, affordable, reliable electricity systems. And I have the privilege of being on this panel. It's exciting work with colleagues from across the country, many of whom come from provinces in very different stages of decarbonisation. We're sharing best practices and all working towards similar goals. For Ontario, we're entering a period of emerging electricity system needs starting in the 2020s. These electricity and energy capacity needs will continue through to 2040. So demand is expected to increase at nearly 2% per year as I mentioned earlier. All of this presents incredible opportunities for Ontario's communities, new technologies are creating economic growth opportunities and setting the stage for Ontario to build a highly skilled workforce to push to decarbonize will have significant impacts on economy wide emissions reductions, and building the electricity grid of the future also presents opportunities to collaborate and strengthen relationships with indigenous communities and municipalities. Back to my first comment, the pace of this change is a vital consideration. We need to strike the right balance between decarbonizing the grid, while it's still ensuring electricity and energy remain reliable and affordable. If we go too fast, the cost may impede electrification, if we go too slow, we're not going to have the supply available as demand increases. So it really is about thinking this through orderly and it's an all hands on deck challenge.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay, moving along here, maybe you could walk us through some of the scope for what's required to decarbonize Ontario's electricity system. What does an achievable pathway to net zero look like?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, that's the work of the IESO on a regular basis. I mean, I can't underscore my last point enough, which is that it's vital that the transition occurs in an orderly manner, we absolutely need to act but we need to act in a carefully managed way that balances decarbonisation with reliability and affordability. Large infrastructure such as hydroelectric plants and nuclear facilities and transmission lines can take 15-10 years, sometimes more to build, significant investments in capital and materials and labor will be required to build out a fully decarbonized system. And one study I read estimated that 14,000 strong labor force participants, that are that are currently working on our electricity infrastructure would need to increase by a factor of six. So you know, that's a huge investment in training and getting people ready to build all the things we need to build. Indigenous communities and municipalities also have a voice in how and where new infrastructure is located. So meaningful and transparent discussions about siting and land use will be needed. And while many technologies will be needed to decarbonize the grid already known, some are not known and not commercialized yet. And so those are low carbon fuels small modular reactors still in development. At this point, it'll be important for Ontario and for Canada to continue to invest in these and other other innovations as well in supporting the pathway. We need energy plans to be approved and new infrastructure needs to be planned, permitted and cited. Regulatory and approval processes such as the environmental impact assessments need to be resourced, appropriately and streamlined to enable all of these builds to happen. We also need the supporting transmission infrastructure to be planned and built on on similar timelines as demand growth and as new supply comes online and underlying all of that we need to carefully manage the costs to ensure the actual impact on total energy costs is affordable, and that they do not diverge significantly, Ontario from those of our neighbors in Manitoba and Quebec and in the US. So lots of again, lots of facets, but work that can be itemized now and definitely plan forward.

Daniel Seguin:

Cool. What are some of IESO's, no regret actions that can be taken to help meet those growing demands?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, I think the minister anchored on some of those in his Powering Ontario's Growth report, Ontario can certainly continue to acquire new non-emitting resources and incentivize energy efficiency through our Save on Energy programs. sector partners can also begin planning and citing for new potential projects, partnerships between municipal, provincial and federal governments will also be key and we need to continue to develop those relationships now, while we're also revisiting the regulatory frameworks that may hinder and prevent progress. Last but certainly not least, we must track our progress in an open and transparent way. There's no one way we can say decarbonisation happens. It's a gradual change that will take place over many years, and will require lots of little steps to make progress. And certainly the government's recent response to our reports puts in motion some of those actions including asking us at the IESO to explore opportunities to enable future generation in northern Ontario and reducing the reliance on natural gas generation in the GTA. The ministry has also asked the IESO to begin consultations on a competitive transmitter selection framework for future lines with electricity supply expected to continue to grow over the next 20 to 30 years, you know, that's what we're doing now, you know, in terms of planning, but we're also we're also working to secure new capacity and leveraging our existing assets. So that is through our very thorough resource adequacy framework, which was put in place that outlines our strategy to get that new supply in the short, medium and long term. A key piece of this is competitive procurements and the processes that have been used to date including the annual capacity auction, and but you know, there's also work being done that we're leveraging by our energy efficiency and demand response programs that that get back to what individuals and what individual businesses can do to support decarbonisation. We've got market renewal going on. We've got medium and long term procurements. So lots of action underway. All of them no regret that can that can be continued to to meet this demand.

Daniel Seguin:

Now Lesley, with electricity supply expected to grow the next 20 to 30 years, what is the IESO doing to secure new capacity? And how is it leveraging existing assets?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, great question. So in terms of generating new supply or acquiring new supply, that's really our resource adequacy framework. It outlines, you know, the work we're doing both in the short, medium and long term to competitively procure new resources. We've recently done the procurements for batteries and for natural gas, upgrades and expansions. We'll be launching our next procurement very shortly and designing the one after that. So it's that layer cake approach that I mentioned. We've also, you know, can can anchor back in the strides we've taken in the current procurements to secure we've had great resources come to bear and participate in those procurements, so we're very hopeful that future procurements will also be very successful

Daniel Seguin:

Now hoping you can help demystify this next one for our listeners. What is the Hydrogen Energy fund? What is special about hydrogen, and how do you think it will support Ontario's reliability needs and decarbonisation?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, it is, it is a new word and a new way of thinking for for a lot of folks. So let me dig into that. But the goal of our hydrogen Innovation Fund is to investigate, evaluate and demonstrate how low carbon hydrogen technologies could be integrated into the grid. The new program will enable the IESO to test the ability of hydrogen to support grid reliability and affordability, but also the role it can play in broader decarbonisation. Hydrogen has the potential to reduce electricity sector emissions, but it could also be used as a replacement fuel in other more fossil fuel intensive industries such as transportation. From the electricity sector's perspective, hydrogen has the potential to provide several essential services, it can smooth the output from renewable resources such as wind and solar, it can be blended into natural gas to reduce total emissions and could be used to offer several services such as peaking generation, grid efficiency and storage. But all that being said, it's not an ultimate solution. While hydrogen can be used to generate electricity producing it also requires electricity. So the integration of hydrogen like all new resources will require a balanced approach, one that can make more efficient use of our existing electricity system assets which the Hydrogen Innovation Fund will help with the interest in the fund has been very high. The IESO has received more than 25 applications. The projects are in flight now are undergoing review right now. And we should be in a position to announce the successful projects in September.

Daniel Seguin:

Lesley. Let's now look globally, what are other countries doing right, that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?

Lesley Gallinger:

Yeah, I think I think this is, you know, very important. We very much focused on on Canada or in you know, in our case, Ontario for answers. And the IESO is just one of many electricity system operators worldwide. And I certainly am always keeping an eye on what other countries are doing. However, every jurisdiction has unique circumstances, which include laws, regulations, geography and politics that can sometimes make comparisons difficult. In North America, specifically, Ontario is a leader in many ways and the pathways report is a very well thought out approach. And so I think that's an area of interests that others have looked to us, that, coupled with our experience of phasing out coal fired generation, we're in a good position really to set examples for other jurisdictions looking to do similar work, and certainly in conversations with my IESO counterparts around North America, we're having robust discussions and learning from each other.

Daniel Seguin:

Well, looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach, what is giving you hope?

Lesley Gallinger:

Well, electricity is being looked at to support decarbonisation of other sectors and to support economic growth. That's hugely exciting to see the broad impact our industry is having on society. And as we engage with broader audience, the collaborative spirit across the sector, across the province and across the country, we're seeing... certainly gives me hope that Ontario can achieve decarbonisation through an orderly transition that balances that decarbonisation desire with reliability and affordability that are at the heart of our mandate.

Daniel Seguin:

Lastly, Lesley, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

Lesley Gallinger:

I'm ready. These were some of the more difficult questions, Dan. So I'm certainly ready for these.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay. What are you reading right now?

Lesley Gallinger:

So I just finished reading a really great book, how big things get done by bent flyvbjerg. And I think it's making the rounds really good book on large projects, and what we can learn from past failures in large projects, which will be important information for Ontario.

Daniel Seguin:

Cool. Thanks for sharing. Now, what would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?

Lesley Gallinger:

Well, I have a very, very small boat, and I have yet to name it. But now now that you've got me thinking about that the wheels are turning. At the moment, it's new, so I'm just learning to park it. And when I say park, my my partner rolls his eyes and says "you mean dock" and I say no, Park. So next time we speak Dan, I'll have a name for the boat.

Daniel Seguin:

Very good. Who is someone that you truly admire?

Lesley Gallinger:

I think this was the most difficult question. There are people I admire in many aspects of my life. And I certainly wouldn't want to single out anyone or miss out on another person. But if I can be a bit general, given the role I'm in, I'd have to say it's the people who have the vision and foresight to see what's coming in the future and to plan and build those large projects and large infrastructure investments needed to get there.

Daniel Seguin:

What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Lesley Gallinger:

Well, I am a lover of being outdoors, so perhaps for me it would be on the morning after a deep snowfall on the trails around my friend's property being the first snow shoes out on the trails on a Sunday morning. It's so quiet and so beautiful and it just feels magical.

Daniel Seguin:

Now what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Lesley Gallinger:

I think for me, it would be helping my mom stay connected to to our community as as an elderly widow in her own home. It was a lot of one on one contact for me with her and making sure that I could connect her to a broader social network. So she didn't feel so isolated. And I think that was, you know, well worth the challenge. But it was a it was a challenge.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay. We've all been watching just a little bit more TV or even Netflix lately. What is your favorite show?

Lesley Gallinger:

So I spend very little time watching TV and when I do or, or Netflix, and when I do, it's mostly documentaries. I want to give a call out for a course I'm taking right now online, which is the closest thing to TV, I'm taking the University of Alberta's indigenous Canada course, which has been for me tremendous value in helping me understand indigenous worldviews and perspectives. But I did just watch a Netflix series on the Tour de France, which was a fascinating look at the teams and tactics as well as the effort that the athletes endure over that 21 days.

Daniel Seguin:

Okay, cool. Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?

Lesley Gallinger:

Oh, my goodness. My teams have heard me use this before everything everywhere all at once. We have an opportunity as an industry right now to guide generational change and to have an impact on the environment and the economy far past our working lives. And that is incredibly exciting.

Daniel Seguin:

Well, Lesley, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?

Lesley Gallinger:

Thank you. Yes. www.ieso.ca. Our website has a wealth of resources to help listeners become more energy literate. And to understand the work we do. And you can find me on LinkedIn at Lesley Gallinger.

Daniel Seguin:

Again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Lesley Gallinger:

I did! The questions were tough, but very interesting and they certainly got to the heart of the work that we do at the IESO. Thank you, Dan, for for your interest in our work and for asking those questions that allow me to speak and highlight the work of the incredible professionals that work at the IESO.

Daniel Seguin:

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guest or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

View Details

As Canadians depend more and more on an electrified grid, safety and reliability are at the core of the conversation. How are we improving the grid’s resilience to climate change and extreme weather? How are we accommodating increased capacity as more people electrify their lives? In episode 99 of thinkenergy, we discuss future proofing the grid and what exactly that means with Guillaume Paradis, Chief Electricity Distribution Officer at Hydro Ottawa.

Related links

Guillaume Paradis, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721/

Power outage safety: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/outage-centre/outage-safety

Energy saving resources: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.

Dan Seguin 00:28

Hey, everyone, welcome back. There's a great analogy I read recently that compared future proofing the electricity grid to Wayne Gretzky. And since this is our 99th episode, woohoo, it just seems fitting that we make our reference to the great one. What made Wayne Gretzky, the greatest hockey player of all time, was not his speed or the uncanny accuracy of his shots, but rather his ability to predict where the puck was going to be an instant before it arrived. utilities like Wayne Gretzky have the ability to anticipate events and predict patterns that can make them more prepared for extreme weather events as a utility, planning and predicting the future is part of our DNA. And as we all prepare to meet greenhouse gas reduction targets set by the feds, provincial and municipal governments, we are seeing a lot of future planning happening to make the electricity system as clean and as resilient as possible. And part of that is predicting what the future will look like, from what energy sources will power our electricity supply, but also what kind of challenges like electrification and threats like extreme weather we will face? So here's today's big question. How can utilities earn customer confidence as they transition towards an electrified grid that can also withstand unpredictable weather to safely and reliably deliver energy. Today's guest is Guillaume packaging. As the chief electricity distribution officer at hydro Ottawa, Guillaume is responsible for planning, design, operations, constructions and maintenance of our nation's capitol electrical power distribution system. In his role, Guillaume leads a team directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient and reliable delivery of electricity to hydro Ottawa customers. Guillaume has over a decade of industry experience in progressive leadership roles ranging from research program management, to distribution planning, asset management, design, and construction. Thanks for joining us on the show today.

Guillaume Paradis 02:56

Thanks for having me.

Dan Seguin 02:57

You've been in the industry for more than a decade now, what's been the biggest change or shift you've witnessed?

Guillaume Paradis 03:05

So what I'd say has been the most significant change over that time period is that we've actually gone from talking about very exciting things and future focus opportunities. So we've gone from talking about them to actually getting to implement them. So some of the things that were on the horizon 10 years ago, and 15 years ago, in fact, were related to electric vehicles, the proliferation of battery storage technology, the development of the smart grid, and over that period of time, through those conversations, we've actually been able to shift the industry to a place where we're actually delivering on some of those promises. So that's very, very exciting. It's a massive challenge for everyone involved, but unlocks a whole series of possibilities, that when I started my career, we were only talking and thinking about,

Dan Seguin 04:08

Okay, what does future proofing the electricity grid really mean? What kind of plans and predictions are you making to help the grid withstand climate change?

Guillaume Paradis 04:20

So future proofing is an interesting one, because, you know, ultimately, all of your success depends on your ability to forecast and forecasting. Currently, with the changing landscape with the pace at which policy is being updated, refreshed, and modified, it is quite challenging. So we've gone from an environment where you could look at decade's worth of data, use a little bit of economic information, and forecasts and combine those things into what would turn out to be a pretty useful and fairly accurate prediction of what your system would be required to deliver. So we've gone from that to an environment where in a matter of, you know, sometimes months, you know, the underlying basis for your predictions as totally been changed. And you have, or you're having to revisit your assumptions from, frankly, a quarter to the next. So, future proofing right now, in my mind is about, you know, keeping an eye out for what's coming. So being able to anticipate what's ahead, being able to stay abreast of all the trends, making, what I would call incremental adjustments to our practices today that ensure that if, and when the future, you know, more specifically crystallizes, we can take advantage of the opportunities, and we're not having to redo too much work, but also without betting too much on one outcome, where we may not have the certainty of what's ahead. So, you know, that's true when you look at the full landscape. And specifically, when we're looking at the predictions around climate change, it's about at a minimum, being very responsive to the more recent events. So using that to update your predictions. And recently, unfortunately, with respect to climate, you know, we've seen what would have been deemed, you know, one in 1000, or one in 100 year events occur at a frequency that far exceeds, you know, what predictions would have called for. And we have to recognize that as being the new trend, despite not having the benefit of 100 years of events in that new paradigm that we find ourselves in. So, you know, from a climate standpoint, I think we have to be a little farther out, and expect that recent data points actually represent the new reality, as opposed to relying on the longer trend that we would like to count on, which is 50-100 years or beyond. So from a climate standpoint, at this point, our assumption is, you know, what's happened recently looks a lot more like what's expected to happen to us in the next few years. And in fact, you know, we're looking to build a little bit of contingency or buffer into our predictions, assuming that it might get a little worse.

Dan Seguin 07:40

Now, why does future proofing the grid go hand in hand with electrification, and clean energy,

Guillaume Paradis 07:48

So electrification and clean energy come down to, in my view, increasing our society's resilience, resilience and dependence on our electricity infrastructure. So, you know, for many years now, many decades, the electricity system has been the underpinning of our modern society. But even more so as we move more of our energy use to the electricity system, it becomes paramount ensure that the infrastructure we have is able to support and maintain with a high level of redundancy, you know, that modern lifestyle where more of what we do is electrified, clean energy, in its various forms, you know, supports our ability to electrify more of our activities, but also from a planning standpoint introduces a bit of a new challenge, in terms of intermittency. And so our ability to have an underlying asset base distribution system or transmission system that is highly redundant and highly secure, to enable and support the use of renewable energy is critical. And so that's where future proofing is really about, you know, ensuring that the bet we're making as a society, which is electrifying to improve the outlook on our climate change objectives, is actually possible going forward.

Dan Seguin 09:29

Don't I've got a follow up question here. What does a self healing grid mean?

Guillaume Paradis 09:35

You know, in a nutshell, self healing is about leveraging technology and automation to ensure that when an issue occurs, whether it be a failure, or an externality, like a tree, you know, impacting our infrastructure. We use that technology that automation to most rapidly re structure and rearrange our distribution system to minimize the impact of those events. So it's really about leveraging automation, you know, rapid communication, we now have access to using the computational power that is also available to us. And letting those tools make the preliminary decision on how best to restore power, before there's a human interaction that comes in to take care of the final steps. So really, if you think about it, and how far we've come in the last 20 years with computer power and communication tools, it's really bringing the latest and the best of those technologies to bear on how we restore power to our customers.

Dan Seguin 10:45

After the May Dereocho, a lot of people were asking why utilities don't bury all overhead lines? What's your answer to that Gil?

Guillaume Paradis 10:55

So yeah, it comes up every time there's a storm, and it's, it's perfectly understandable. And I think there's a couple things that come into play when we think about, you know, what is best to deliver power to our customers. Certainly, you know, we've been talking about redundancy in an underground system, when it comes to certain types of climate related events, like large storms, or wind storms, you know, introduce a certain level of security that exceeds what is possible with an overhead system. But the other very important element as we think about electrification going forward, is the element of cost, and affordability of power. And, you know, just from a comparison standpoint, the basic math, you know, when evaluating underground alternatives to overhead systems, is about a 10 to one cost ratio. So certainly when we look at, you know, where best to invest dollars, and how best to bring power to communities, that cost component is factored in and becomes a consideration, particularly when you look at lower density areas, or farther away areas from production centers, it becomes a costly proposition. Now, what we're looking to do going forward is we see undergrounding as a strategic tool in improving our climate resilience. And so we're going to look at certain corridors, perhaps, or certain targeted investments to underground infrastructure, to try to get the most value possible for our customers as we plan for, you know, an elevated climate challenge in the future. But that consideration around costs is significant. And finally, what I'd say as well is, you know, your ability to restore power when there's a problem with overhead infrastructure is far greater than it is when an underground system fails. And so in addition to that cost component, the ability to restore power quickly, when there is a problem is higher with an overhead infrastructure.

Dan Seguin 13:10

At the beginning of the last century, it was the Industrial Revolution. This century is shaping up to be an electrical revolution. How confident are you about the grid's capacity, as more and more people electrify their cars, and eventually, their homes?

Guillaume Paradis 13:32

So how confident I would say very confident. And that's not to minimize the scale of the challenge ahead of us. You're correct, we're now proposing to essentially, you know, completely shift the dynamics around electricity. In a matter of, you know, I would like to say decades, but it's essentially a decade at this point. And so it's a very complex challenge from an engineering standpoint and a planning standpoint. But I've seen how the conversation and the thinking has evolved over the last 1015 years in our industry, I've seen the technologies that are being brought forward as tools to be leveraged to enable that transition to a more electric future. And, you know, the significant load growth, I will come with that. So I think we have the tools, we need to maintain a high level of awareness and adaptability in, you know, facing what's ahead of us. We can't fall back on old habits or, you know, make excuses when we have solutions we want to implement and we know we need to implement to enable that electrified future, but I think We will get there. And I've seen all sorts of signs pointing to that possibility. And it's going to come down to once again making the most of all the tools we have. So we talked about technology earlier, we're going to have to leverage technology to manage how electric vehicles are charged, and when, and in what parts of the city and how best to leverage the existing infrastructure to do that, because we know, we can just build or double the size of our electric infrastructure to accommodate that growth. So we're going to have to be more refined, we're going to have to leverage all the tools available to us, including distributed energy resources, but I think we will get there and I like what I'm seeing from all the stakeholders across the industry, and thinking and adapting to that new reality.

Dan Seguin 15:50

Here's another follow up question. What would you say to those who are worried about reliability and power outages?

Guillaume Paradis 15:59

I would say that's our main focus. And so it's completely normal to have some concerns in a context where more of our lives become dependent on the electricity system. And but, you know, on our end, from an electricity industry standpoint, reliability has been forever, essentially, you know, the focus of our energy and our attention. And now we all understand that, we need to elevate the reliability standards that have been developed over the last decades. And so we have, once again, certain tools we can leverage to do that. So again, not to say it's not significant, we have to go from, you know, what has been a 99.998% availability to something even closer to 100%. Because we know our customers depend on our infrastructure more than ever. But we're working on that. And we're going to bring in some tools that will help us support that outcome. And certainly, you know, we talked about automation, but things like battery storage, becoming more prevalent, you know, within the landscape, including the batteries of electric vehicles, over time, will be one of those examples of new tools that we can try to leverage to deliver, deliver that elevated level of reliability that our customers will expect in our society will need.

Dan Seguin 17:33

Okay, thanks. Yeah, there will be power outages, we can't avoid that. Knowing that, what are some of the things customers could or should consider doing to be better prepared?

Guillaume Paradis 17:46

Yeah. So that's another interesting question with respect to what we've seen in the last few years. So even just through some of the climate related events that we've experienced, you know, longer duration outages related to tornadoes are due to Russia more recently, one of the basic things that everyone is encouraged to do and we try to promote is, you know, developing a plan for the household, right, or for, you know, your business if you're a commercial customer, but think about what things look like, from your perspective. In the event of an outage of various durations that like, you know, the basic exercise would be to think about something of short duration, say two hours of less or less than looking at something a bit more prolonged like six hours, and then going to the next step of saying, what happens if it's more than 24 hours. And you know, if you go to our website, and the website of, you know, many of our peer utilities, most offer a set of resources around how to build a toolkit to be able to remain safe and function through certain duration outages. And then, of course, if you want to go beyond that for certain critical customers, and that conversation is ongoing, and everyone's minds already been turned to that, but looking at other alternatives, like on site generation, energy storage, generators, of course, being the traditional option, but looking to secure some critical processes with on site generation where possible. So building resilience is something that we've worked on, you know, for decades, through our infrastructure investments, of course, but working with customers, and more so than ever again, as we electrify many more aspects of our lives. We need to ensure that everyone appreciates and recognizes what may be required if power was to for hopefully a very short amount of time not be available.

Dan Seguin 20:03

Now, what kind of planning and predictions are you making for the short, mid and long term when it comes to electrification?

Guillaume Paradis 20:13

So the short term is probably the most interesting element now, because it's been a little difficult to figure out exactly when things would land. So what we're seeing today, and that's ongoing now, is that, you know, certainly many customers are actively looking at reducing their impact in terms of carbon footprint. And they're looking at doing that through electrification. And so we're seeing a lot of activity where customers choose to switch to fuel, which would be essentially moving away from using carbon intensive energy resources for things like heating, and then leveraging our infrastructure to support that. So when that happens at a campus level, or for commercial customers, that can be a significant growth in the demand on the electricity system. So we're fairly able to project what that looks like. And it's been happening at a good pace. On the electric vehicle adoption side of things we've been monitoring for over a decade now, we've been, you know, doing some modeling, some predictions, we've worked with, you know, external stakeholders to put together studies that would help us understand the impact. The thing that has been challenging, certainly over the last two years is that there's now a clear gap between the market demand with or for electric vehicles, and what manufacturers and the supply chains are able to make available to that market. So figuring out the exact timing has become a little more challenging, where we would have expected to see, you know, a very steady growth, but a significant growth that would eventually turn into sort of a complete shift to electric vehicle purchases. Whereas it's taking a bit longer, I think, to occur than we would have, frankly, hoped for, but also expected, it's getting, it's gotten us or given us a bit more time as supposed to plan for it. But certainly from an electrification standpoint, and the predictions that we're making, we're seeing electric vehicles being sort of pervasive across our distribution system. It'll occur over a certain number of years, but we will have electric vehicle charging occur all over service territory. And certainly from a fleet standpoint, once again, as soon as some of the manufacturers manage to ramp up their capacity to produce vehicles, we're expecting to see more and more fleet operators move their entire operation to electric vehicles. And so we're preparing for that as well.

Dan Seguin 22:58

Now, Guillaume, tell me, what keeps you up at night, then, talk to me about what gives you hope.

Guillaume Paradis 23:06

So what still keeps me up at night. And I think that's just a virtue of the environment. And the industry that we're in is the safety of our team. And, frankly, anyone who interacts with our infrastructures, so that that's something that we easily forget in our society, considering how, you know, ubiquitous energy electricity is, it's just the sheer power that that electricity represents, and how close in proximity it comes to many people, certainly our workforce, you know, physically interacts with that infrastructure every day. And so ensuring that we remain safe at all times is critical. But it's the same for our customers and anyone who comes close to the electricity infrastructure. And so that's, that's first and foremost, I think it's just, you know, a reality of what we do, distributing electricity. But certainly just the general pace of change is interesting, I wouldn't say it keeps me up at night, because I'm worried it keeps me up at night because it's exciting. And there's so much possibilities that come with what's ahead to a degree that we've frankly, never seen in our industry. And so it's just a completely exciting time to be part of the electricity industry. We just got to make sure that we do everything we can to leverage what's coming for the benefit of our customers and to power our community. But you know, there are much worse things to be kept up at night by and I think it's just a lot of energy. Literally, I suppose, coming to all of us, you know around the organization in the industry. Well, hope is So we have, you know, so many bright colleagues, so many people looking at what's, you know, ahead and what's upon us, that we're uniquely positioned to help, you know, our, all societies across the globe, deliver on, you know, what is, you know, the generational challenge of climate change. So we're, you know, it's, it's not often that you're part of an industry that can have such a significant impact on such a large problem. And so to be right in the middle of it, and having a key role in enabling the aspiration of our entire society, is really exciting. And, you know, having the chance to take tangible and real concrete actions to get us all there is fantastic. So the hope comes from the energy of everyone involved, and the talent of everyone in Walt involved, and the passion that they bring to solving this massive, massive challenge that we have ahead of us.

Dan Seguin 26:12

Moving on here, what role does hydro Ottawa or utilities in general have when it comes to delivering solutions to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

Guillaume Paradis 26:22

So that the, I think the unique perspective that we bring, so certainly, electrifying period, right, so we're, we're, you know, an alternative to dirtier sources, particularly here in Ontario, where we can still count on an electricity system that is very significantly, you know, supplied by renewable energy resources. So we're sort of a platform for greenhouse gas reduction, just by virtue of electrification. So that is a significant role. And even more importantly, we also have, you know, an opportunity to be direct partners with industries, stakeholders, businesses, commercial actors, who are actually trying to reduce their greenhouse gases, footprint and impact. And so we're, we're part of the conversation and what we do differently than other businesses is, we think and plan in decades, and, you know, in Windows of 25, and 50 years, and so we've been here 100 years, we're expecting to be here, you know, many 100 more. And so we have that long term perspective that we can bring to the table, when engaging with other stakeholders who maybe think more on a sort of business case level in terms of three and five year paybacks, we're actually able to bring in that long term perspective to inform their decision making. So it's pretty unique, frankly, and, and we're also in many, many cases, in a position where we're trusted advisors. So there has been that trust built over decades of being reliable and available. And so we're seen as or as almost impartial in the process of electrifying and reducing greenhouse gases. And so again, we can bring that perspective to bear when supporting our customers and making those decisions and enabling those objectives of more sustainable activities.

Dan Seguin 28:43

Sorry about this Guillaume, but I've got a follow up question, what are some of the initiatives that hydro Auto is doing to help customers in this area?

Guillaume Paradis 28:51

So we have essentially the full inventory of initiatives. So from a customer standpoint, we work with them at the facility level, we have, you know, our key account representatives, we're sort of their energy advisors on demand. And so, you know, that is a direct line between customers and all the portfolios and all the options that are available in the industry. So that's, that's big, because it's, it's almost working with them from the inception of their plans to try to bring them to, you know, that future of a lower carbon footprint. And so, you know, we're very active in that space. You know, from an energy standpoint and an energy system standpoint, we see our responsibility as being the local enabler of local renewable energy resources, and a more efficient use of energy, you know, in our community and in the communities that we serve. And so we're working with industry stakeholders, particularly regulatory agencies, and better informing their approach to enabling those resources to make sure that when customers approach us with their solar generation project, or with their battery storage project, we find the best way to make that investment work for them financially, but also for our community from a greenhouse gas standpoint. And so we have a very important role in sort of acting as an interface between, you know, our constituents, and the regulatory agencies that govern what we do. And that's fundamental to making that green future possible. Because we're essentially, you know, ending an entire regulatory framework, and an entire industry paradigm on the fly, as people make those decisions, to invest differently. And so that advisor role is critical, that advocacy role is critical. And you know, more specifically, we have a wide variety of programs, all available in great detail on our website, to help customers think through the decisions that they're making with respect to energy.

Dan Seguin 31:21

Now, what are your thoughts on distributed energy resources, what kind of challenges or opportunities do they pose?

Guillaume Paradis 31:32

Not only a great opportunity, but a necessary piece of that puzzle coming together with respect to electrifying and proceeding with that energy transition that we've all embarked on. And that going forward with the combination of a growing demand for electricity, and some of the challenges brought about by climate change, will need to be able to leverage energy resources closer to where the demand actually exists. And distributed energy resources are sort of the elementary building blocks that will allow us to do that where by having a generation closer to our customers within our community here in Ottawa, for example, and in Castleman, we'll be able to ensure that we're not reliant on power coming from, you know, hundreds of kilometers away somewhere across the province. And that under more scenarios, contingency or otherwise, we're able to leverage what's here to ensure that our customers stay power through whatever may come and so the D ers bolt in meeting capacity requirements going forward and meeting resilience expectations will be essential. And so once again, they in terms of scaling up to, you know, many 1000s within Ottawa, Ottawa, they represent a pretty significant engineering challenge in rethinking our control systems, our, you know, engineering decisions, but they're a necessary and important building block, and therefore much larger of an opportunity than they are a threat. And we just need to spend the next few years continuing to evolve our ability to leverage those in real time to meet our future objectives.

Dan Seguin 33:30

Okay, yeah, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got a few for you. Are you ready?

Guillaume Paradis 33:38

Okay,we'll give it a shot.

Dan Seguin 33:40

Okay. What are you reading right now?

Guillaume Paradis 33:43

So, I'm not sure if the timing of this conversation will matter. But certainly leading up to Remembrance Day, I sort of tend to go back to at least one book, you know, related to war, and the impacts of war. And so I've gotten back into reading August by Barbara Tuchman. So that's sort of one of my favorite books about the start of the First World War. Just very well written. And every time I go back to it, I'm just inspired by the quality of the storytelling, but I have this bad habit of reading multiple books at the same time, which typically takes me forever to get through them. I've started Dawn of everything or the dawn of everything, which is a complicated but very interesting reevaluation of how modern enlightenment thinking has evolved in Europe through the influence of some of the North American First Nations. It is a very interesting topic there. And also reading An old classic and letters from a stoic by Seneca when I managed to not fall asleep at 1230 Each night, but those are the three books that are on my night table right now.

Dan Seguin 35:16

Now, what would you name your boat? If you have one? Or maybe do you have one?

Guillaume Paradis 35:22

I do not. And I would let my kids name it. And so I expect it would be called something related to Paw Patrol, or the latest show that they're on these days. But I would certainly not shoulder that responsibility. And I would ask my kids to decide what the name should be,

Dan Seguin 35:47

Who is someone that you admire, Guillaume?

Guillaume Paradis 35:50

I'm going to stay on the same theme with that one. And I think I have to say, I admire my wife. And I do because I get to watch her in action every single day. And I see how she tackles problems. And she multitasks and makes problems go away that I couldn't quite wrap my head around. And so the relentless energy or determination that she applies to everything she does, is really a big inspiration for me. So, you know, surely there are others, you know, in our history or otherwise, that could be inspirations, but no one resonates in my life, quite to the degree that my wife does.

Dan Seguin 36:35

Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Guillaume Paradis 36:42

Fair, that's, that's a tricky one. I think, not the engineering type talking about science here. But I think just there's two extremes that are either dead technologies that we've managed to develop. And one of the ones I think of occasionally, is them, computers and the chips and the microprocessors we've been to develop, able to develop and just the sheer scale, and the complexity that we've been able to create there. Otherwise, things like CRISPR, for genetic splicing, I just still can't quite wrap my head around how that's possible. But we're able to do things with DNA now that are just, you know, stuff of science fiction 20 years ago, anything to do with space exploration, and deploying, you know, telescopes in space or launching probes to Mars, I still don't understand how we managed to do that, without something failing more often than it does. And otherwise, the other extreme, I would say is, is just nature, right. And that's exactly what we're all working on today, across the globe, is recognizing that what we have, you know, around us, our planet is just beyond amazing, and, you know, almost incomprehensible in complexity. And we have a responsibility to take care of that. But I think, you know, whenever we have, I have the chance of stepping out of the city and just looking around at nature for a few minutes, you have to kind of be reminded of how unlikely it all seems that something so complex, so beautiful, would come together. And so I think, you know, in the real world, those things are as close as we can get to magic, really.

Dan Seguin 38:38

Okay, this is an interesting one, Guillaume. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Guillaume Paradis 38:46

That's a tricky one to think through. Because there's been so much that seems to have happened over the last 24 months - and now 30 months of the pandemic, I would say just having to constantly adapt without what seemed for a while a real frame of reference, right. So if you take yourself back to the early days of the pandemic, in particular, it just seemed like every other week, we would, we would be learning new things about how the pandemic would work and how forecasts look as to how we might get out of that situation. And so, you know, I'm someone who loves change in general. But even for me, in those early days, it just seemed a little bit unsettling to feel like every other week, you had to rethink a lot of your decisions, a lot of your planning a lot of the ways in which you thought you could protect yourself, your colleagues in your family, and so just having to do that on an ongoing basis for an extended period of time. Like that was very, very challenging. And so I'd probably put that as the biggest challenge. But obviously, you know, everything else that flowed from there was back to our society or friends and family or colleagues. That was just a very, very unique situation to work through in general, right?

Dan Seguin 40:11

We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately, what is your favorite movie or your favorite show?

Guillaume Paradis 40:19

So I watch just about anything that comes up, that I can sort of sit through for more than 15 minutes that sort of detest now. We've all watched so much TV over the last few years that if something can capture your attention for 15 minutes, that's probably a good sign. I always, and that might be a boring answer. But I always end up going back to, you know, one of the classics and Seinfeld. So, you know, you look at what's available. And, you know, sometimes you just don't have the energy to start something new. And I just go back to it, I found it's aged fairly well, some of the humor in there is quite timeless. And so it's sort of like a comforting blanket almost at this point, they just go back to a couple old Seinfeld episodes.

Dan Seguin 41:12

Lastly, sir, what's exciting you about your industry right now?

Guillaume Paradis 41:18

I mean, I've said it a few times already. But just the opportunity to be in the middle of all that change. Like, it's such an important time in our societies evolution, I would not want to be on the sidelines of watching that unfold. And I think, you know, being so centrally positioned to help us all achieve those really big aspirations we have with respect to climate and the environment. I think that's great, right? And we have the tools, we have the energy we have, you know, everyone is willing, and so we just have to do it. So I think, you know, it's such a source of inspiration and energy. That, you know, I couldn't ask for more frankly, electricity was always important. And I was always something that made our industry very intriguing, and, you know, interesting, but that has been taken to a whole new level in the last little while. And for the foreseeable future, that, you know, there's going to be an endless supply of energy for all of us to solve those big problems.

Dan Seguin 42:31

Well, Guillaume, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and our organization, how could they connect?

Guillaume Paradis 42:45

So certainly, you know, go to our website, we've just launched a brand new website for a group of companies, I believe. It's under the name of power as one.com. Otherwise, our hydro auto website, of course, I wouldn't encourage you to find out more about me, I'm not that important. But check out the resources we have on our website. Our organization in particular is doing all sorts of novel and cool things, whether it be across Portage power, and vari Hebrew networks, or hydro Ottawa limited. So check out what we have there and reach out, you'll see all sorts of channels on there that you can use to engage with us. We're actively looking for everyone's input as we think about the future of energy. And so please come forward with whatever creative solutions you have. And I assure you, we'll consider them.

Dan Seguin 43:46

Again, Guillaume, merci beaucoup, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Guillaume Paradis 43:52

Cheers. And it was great. Thank you, Dan, for having me.

Dan Seguin 43:55

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Think Energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Summer Rewind: The Canadian Climate Institute’s Big Switch

Reaching Canada’s net zero goals is a bit like solving a national puzzle. There are many pieces that need to fit together, including doubling or tripling the amount of zero-emissions electricity Canada currently produces to meet future demand for widespread electrification. Caroline Lee, senior researcher with the Canadian Climate Institute, walks us through the Big Switch report, which highlights three crucial changes required by Canada’s electricity sector in order to hit the country’s net zero goals.

Related links

• Website: https://climateinstitute.ca/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/canadianclimateinstitute/

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

• Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
• Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
• More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
• Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

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Summer Rewind: The 2030 EV Action Plan with Electric Mobility Canada

Summer Rewind: The 2022 federal budget doubled down on Canada’s commitment to make all light-duty vehicles and passenger truck sales fully electric by 2035. That’s a considerable investment to get Canadians behind the wheel of an EV. Daniel Breton, President and CEO of Electric Mobility Canada joins us to discuss whether the real concerns about a shift to EVs are being addressed. From pricing models to helping rural, northern First Nations and Inuit communities, there’s still a lot to be done.

Related links

• LinkedIn, Daniel Breton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-breton-b8a3b1a4/
• LinkedIn, Electric Mobility Canada: https://www.linkedin.com/company/electric-mobility-canada/
• Electric Mobility Canada: https://emc-mec.ca/

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

• Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
• Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
• More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
• Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

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Summer Rewind: Responding to emergencies and disasters with the Canadian Red Cross – thinkenergy Podcast Episode 103

When a natural disaster strikes, your electricity is at risk. And Canada is no stranger to extreme weather. During these large-scale emergencies, a coordinated effort is needed to aid Canadians – and millions around the globe. Enter the Canadian Red Cross, a leader in providing disaster relief at home and aboard. In episode 103 of thinkenergy, we chat with Guy Lepage, a Disaster Management Volunteer with the organisation, to learn more about his role and what it's like having ‘boots on the ground’ during a disaster.

Related links

The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada

Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/

Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

To subscribe using Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

To subscribe on Libsyn:

http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/

Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited

Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa

More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa

Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

#ThinkEnergy #HydroOttawa #EnergySolutions

____________________________________________________

Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Canada has experienced a number of natural disasters in the last number of years in 2022. There was a devastating May long weekend Derecho in Ontario, forest fires and floods in British Columbia. And of course, Hurricane Fiona on the East Coast, to name just a few. For those of us in the energy sector, we know that when disaster strikes, a stable supply of electricity is jeopardized. Electricity represents safety, shelter, sanitation, warmth, and clean water. As extreme weather and other large scale events occur around the world. A coordinated global reach is needed to provide aid to millions. There is one leading organization in particular that comes to mind when you think of disaster relief with the skills, resources and people to mobilize in almost any region of this world. I'm talking about the International Red Cross. When it was created back in 1863, the Red Cross the objective was to protect and assist victims of armed conflict. Of course, their work has expanded to many types of crises, including disasters caused by extreme weather events. In total, the Red Cross has a network of more than 80 million people across the world that they can draw on to help in times of need, many right here at home. So here's today's big question. As leaders in emergency preparedness, response and execution, what is it like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. Our guest on the show today is Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Gi has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. The Red Cross stands ready to help people before, during and after a disaster. As a member of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, the Canadian Red Cross is dedicated to helping people and communities in Canada and around the world in times of need, and supporting them in strengthening their resilience. Guy. Welcome to the show.

Guy Lepage 03:16

Thanks for having me.

Dan Seguin 03:17

Guy, perhaps you can start by telling us how long you've been with the Canadian Red Cross. And what inspired you to get involved?

Guy Lepage 03:27

You'll recall back in 2005, 17 years ago, Hurricane Katrina hit the Deep South and of course, that made headlines around the world and then was working for the provincial government at the time and the premier at the time. Dalton McGuinty was contacted by the Canadian Red Cross asking him to send 100 members of the Ontario Public Service to help the American Red Cross. So I put my hand up as a former journalist to help as a communications or a public affairs officer. And I went to the deep south for three weeks as a public affairs officer and I got to see up close what the Red Cross does, whether it's American Canadian, choose your country, we all work under the same guidelines and rules. So you know, I saw how it was done. And so I came home and I said, Okay, I've been to the Deep South, what can I do in my own backyard. And that's when I started thinking about all the courses and the training I should have had before we're going to the Deep South. And it was just an amazing experience and the start of my Red Cross career. Now I can tell you that before I worked for the province, I worked as a journalist in Ottawa for the Ottawa Citizen and CJ wait gender Max Keeping for the your listeners who remember Max, and they covered disasters from house fires to train derailments to, you know, high winds, tornadoes, and there was one case in Gatineau. Across the river, there was cottage country, where high winds came through and pushed a canoe literally through the walls of a cottage. And it was something out of a movie and I said wow, that's amazing. So when I saw that kind of devastation in person in the Deep South. That's, that's okay. This is where I want to be. And giving my time my efforts as a volunteer is for people who go through this kind of disaster.

Dan Seguin 05:13

Okay. Now, what are some of the roles you've had with the organization?

Guy Lepage 05:20

I guess the main role has been as a personal disaster assistance team member, and I will PDA for short, that's when we respond to house fires. So you know, God forbid you and your family, there's a fire at your home at two o'clock in the morning, two volunteers will show up at your home and make sure you've got a place this day and give you gift cards. So you can buy food and clothing if need be. So I've done that the entire time, my 17 years with the Red Cross. I've also been a site manager, when there is a disaster. For example, in the Ottawa area after the tornadoes a few years ago, there were different shelters set up information centers. So someone had to run those centers to make sure they were properly run and offered the services that were needed. So I've been a site manager. And basically, it's other duties as assigned. The Red Cross is very good at training us to do all kinds of things in emergency management.

Dan Seguin 06:16

Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Now, Curiosity is getting the best of me. Talk to me about the role that was the most difficult. And what was the most memorable?

Guy Lepage 06:30

Wow, that's kind of like asking a parent which is their favorite child. I mean, I've been on 18 deployments in Canada, the US, Haiti and in Europe. So it's really difficult to choose. But I'll give you an example. This past summer, I was in Budapest, Hungary working with the International Federation of the Red Cross. On the Ukraine relief operation, we all know what's happening overseas. And my role was a public affairs officer or media relations officer to tell people in the media what was going on, from a red cross point of view. And we've held a news conference. And we told people inflation is making life difficult. But more importantly, winter is coming. Even though this was August, in the middle of a heatwave, winter is coming. And it's going to be a major issue. And now, if you look at the stories out of Ukraine, that is a major issue because of hydro shortages, natural gas shortages, and so on. So that's a memorable one because as a volunteer, I was part of a major relief operation, you know, who would have thought there'd be that kind of conflict anywhere in the world in this day and age, closer to home. A couple of years ago, there was a COVID lock down into Szechwan First Nation in northern Ontario, a fly in community. So there was a COVID outbreak, the entire community was locked down. So even the local store where they buy their groceries was locked down. So I was up there, the team of 12, where groceries, supplies were flown in, they were taken to the local hockey arena, where we put together boxes of essentials like milk, butter, bread, canned goods, dry goods, cereals, and so on. And we assembled boxes of these goods, and they were delivered, the boxes were delivered by the military, they were the rangers to every household in the community. So people could feed themselves. I mean, talk about basic, bare basic service that we all need. So that was a challenge because we were in the middle of a cult COVID lockdown community. So we had to really, really respect the rules of social distancing, sanitizing wearing a mask, we were goggles, we weren't gloves. And we stayed in a church because there was no hotel infrastructure, and we had to stay in a church. We slept in, and top tents on the floor of the church. And whenever that was the only time I could be without wearing a mask. And as soon as you step out of your tent, you have to wear a mask just because we have to protect ourselves. So that's memorable. But I guess the most memorable cases for me then, is when I show up at two o'clock in the morning, and I'm dealing with a family or an individual who's just been burnt out of their home, their apartment, and they've lost everything that they own. And they just have no idea how they're going to cope with this. Because first responders after firefighters, we're the next people they see wearing the red cross vest, and I'm there to tell them, are you okay? We're going to get you a place to live, a safe place to stay. We're going to give you gift cards for clothing, gift cards for food to help you get back on your feet. And people are so thankful. And I tell you the hugs. And I know it sounds strange to say this in a COVID environment. But the hugs I've received over the years from people who are so, so grateful. It makes it all worthwhile. Whether it's getting up at two o'clock in the morning or responding at two o'clock in the afternoon. People are so appreciative, so those are the big memories I take away from this.

Dan Seguin 10:05

Okay. I read that you've assisted in some big operations all over the world. Can you tell us what some of those were, and perhaps your biggest takeaway from those experiences?

Guy Lepage 10:21

I've been very fortunate then and that I've responded to emergencies across Canada. I've been to three hurricanes in the US, Hurricane Sandy in New York, Hurricane Michael in Florida. And Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Well, the Deep South. I went to Haiti in 2010. And as I mentioned, I went to Europe this past summer. So my biggest takeaway is the resilience of people who are affected by a disaster. Um, yes, the initial shock is overwhelming. I mean, no one ever expects to lose their home to a hurricane or a forest fire or an earthquake or whatever. No one sits around the kitchen table and says, Hey, what will we do if we lose our home. So we arrived, wearing the red cross vest to work with local, other responders and governments and we came to the rescue to help them rebuild their lives. So the resilience of people when they get over the shock, they are so appreciative of the work that we are offering the relief we're offering, rather, and they start immediately to rebuild their lives, where am I and my family going to stay? How we're going to feed ourselves and clothe ourselves and get back to normal. So that is, that is the one constant that I can share with you. And the other is, of course, how they are so appreciative. So it doesn't matter where you're from, it is where it happens. They are so happy that the Red Cross and other responders are there to help.

Dan Seguin 11:51

Okay, deep. I'm probably going to embarrass you just a little bit. In November 2021, you received the Order of the Red Cross, considered the Canadian Red Cross highest award, it recognizes extraordinary people who have provided outstanding services at home and abroad. Can you tell us what your service and that honor has meant to you?

Guy Lepage 12:21

Other than my wedding day, and the birth of my children, it's the highest honor of my life, because to be recognized, to do something that I enjoy, and something that I get a whole lot more out of, than what I put in, was just a complete shock. It was emotional, it was overwhelming. I mean, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. So I don't mind telling you that I cried, it was so overwhelming. And, you know, most, I'd say all volunteers with the Red Cross and even outside of the organization, don't do this for the accolades. We do it because we like to volunteer, we like to help people in a time of crisis. And in my case, because I've been doing this for 17 years, I enjoy it so much, I will keep doing it as long as I can. And as I've just mentioned, I get a whole lot more out of it than what I put in. Let me put that into context. Yes, it's a lot of hard work, I deploy for two weeks, three weeks a month, I'm away from my family, my friends, I'm out of my comfort zone, long, stressful days. But in return, I work with other like minded volunteers from around the world. I learned from them, I help people in a time of need. And I tell the new volunteers that I train in my backyard, that you will get warm and fuzzies when you help people. Now by that, you know, we've all helped people in a time in our lives. And if you help someone move a friend of yours, having a bad day and try to console them either on the phone or in person, you know, you feel good about yourself, because you've helped someone you've done something for someone else, you know, because you want to not because you have to or you get paid or anything like that. So I've had the opportunity to do that on a bigger scale. So I've had a ton of warm and fuzzies in my career. All this to say that the Order of the Red Cross was just unexpected, but an incredible, incredible honor. Very good. Very good.

Dan Seguin 14:20

I think it's fair to say that the Red Cross is synonymous with disaster relief. For those that don't know, can you highlight how the Canadian Red Cross gets activated in communities?

Guy Lepage 14:33

That's a very good question. Because every time I go out, regardless of if it's a local fire or something big, you know, people say wow, you know, how do you guys do it? We didn't call or you know, we didn't know you guys did this. Most people need to know that we don't just show up on our own. We work with the local municipality, the local government, provincial federal, depending on where the disaster is. We are invited to assist. You may already know that in Ontario, most municipalities by law have to have an emergency management plan in place, which means when there is a need for a shelter, they have designated a school or a community center or even a church as to where the Red Cross and other organizations can do their thing. So we work with all levels of government and local municipalities, other first responders just to deliver the emergency aid that's needed at the time. Now, this could be an emergency lodging shelter, as I said, in a community center, for example, we could set up a reception center where people can get information, they can get gift cards, personal services, or reunite with their families. We offer a wide variety of services. But again, I want to stress that we are invited by the local municipality or level of government that needs assistance, and then we come to the rescue.

Dan Seguin 15:55

Okay. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had 100 year floods, tornadoes, a Derecho, heat waves, and multiple wind and ice storms. A lot of these events result in lengthy power outages. I know the Canadian Red Cross has been involved with boots on the ground for some of our emergencies here in the nation's capital. What does a typical operation look like?

Guy Lepage 16:26

Every disaster is different. So the first thing that we do is first boots on the ground, work with local governments to assess how bad is the damage caused by, as you mentioned, ice storm, a windstorm, heat waves, tornadoes, and so on. And then we call in the volunteers, the staff, you know, the personnel and the supplies needed to meet the demand. That is the first thing because if you don't know how bad things are, you can't respond appropriately. Now, once we determine what's needed, then we bring in the troops and we bring in the gear and we bring in the gift cards that we need to meet the demand. For example, after the tornado in Ottawa, back in 2018, I was deployed to Gatineau to work at one of the shelters that was set up there where people were staying, and we're also showing up to be assessed for gift cards and so on. So by the time I arrived, the people who had done the advance work knew how many people were needed to work at the shelter. I was one of the site managers, and how many volunteers were needed to meet the demand at the time. So that is the key. How does the operation work? We assess then we bring in what's the personnel and the supplies that are needed to meet the demand.

Dan Seguin 17:44

Okay. Now, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what are some of the ways the Red Cross team helps residents during a crisis?

Guy Lepage 17:55

That's a very good question. We help in a number of ways. The first one would be an emergency shelter, if people have been burned out of their homes, or they just can't go home for whatever reason. And they don't have the funds to go to hotels or they're no hotels available. or for whatever reason, they just have nowhere else to go, they can come to the shelter which can be in a school in a church and a community center. We will set up cots with Red Cross blankets, so people have a place to stay. We set them up to have an area for single men, an area for single women, an area for families, an area for families with family members who need assistance, you know, wheelchairs, that kind of thing. We also set up reception centers where people can show up to get information, they can show up to get gift cards, or just have a shoulder to cry on. We have people who are trained to deal with the psychological impact that disasters have on people. And I can tell you that is as important as giving people a place to stay and gift cards to eat food and clothing. Because it is such a shock. And some people have difficulty dealing with it and they need specialized care. We will distribute funds through gift cards, as I mentioned, and will provide emergency items. For example, hygiene kits, you know, you've lost everything in your home, you don't have your toothpaste, your toothbrush, you don't have your shampoo, you don't have the basics of life that we all come to depend on. We will supply those kinds of things as well. So we are there to help people get back on their feet. And we do the best we can and I think we do a pretty good job. We're always learning to, you know, to get better. But I believe having been around as long as I have. Most of the time things work really, really well.

Dan Seguin 19:43

Now Guy, I read each year the Canadian Red Cross helps more than 100,000 people in Canada. How do people volunteer? What kind of roles are there? And is there a minimum time commitment

Guy Lepage 19:59

There are several ways for people to get involved. The first is emergency management, which is what we've been talking about, and the area I focus on. That's to help people impacted by small or large disasters and emergencies. Now, we're always also looking for Meals on Wheels, delivery drivers, you know, people I think, are familiar with Meals on Wheels. You deliver, you know, hot, nutritious meals to members of the community who are unable to prepare their own food. And, you know, this allows them to stay in their homes for a longer period of time, we have a program called friendly calls, this is where trained Red Cross volunteers or staff members, they talk with adults who are feeling isolated or lonely, for some reason, you know, they've got limited social or family connections, and you know, who feel that they could benefit from having a more social interaction. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, there are a lot of people who were on their own, they couldn't go visit their families. And if you're living by yourself, and you've got no one to talk to, it can have a very negative impact on your well being. So this friendly calls program, you know, someone will pick up the call and say, Hey, Daniel, how you doing? Let's talk and talk about your family, talk about the weather, talking about whatever, just to have a social connection, so you're not by yourself. And we're also looking for transportation drivers, you know, to get people, elderly or disabled people in the community who are unable to use public transportation or other private means. So there are many ways to get involved in the redcross.ca has a lot of information about that. And every program is different. And as far as your minimum commitment, you know, for example, here in Durham Region, and I'm sure it's the same in the Ottawa area. My disaster management volunteers have to fill out their availability for 32 hours a month, and you say, Wow, that sounds like a lot. No, it's not because you're not going to be out and about doing 32 hours worth of work. You're just available for 32 hours a month. And if there isn't, if there's no fire, or no emergency, you don't do anything. Okay, so every program is different. But I want to make the stress the point, again, Daniel, that you'll feel so good about the amount of time that you donate to the organization, whether it's emergency management or as Meals on Wheels, delivery, driver friendly calls, however you choose to get involved, you will feel so good about donating your time and your expertise, that the four hours, 10 hours, whatever the number of hours you volunteered for, will make you feel so good.

Dan Seguin 22:39

Okay, follow up question here. Are you seeing an increase in the need for volunteers? And if so, why?

Guy Lepage 22:47

There are many reasons why there's an increase in the need for volunteers. You know, we've all talked about climate change, and how that that's increased the number of weather related disasters and you look at British Columbia with the flooding, fall of 2021, the forest fires. Those are just a couple of major incidents in Canada and around the world. When it was in Europe this summer, there were massive forest fires all across Europe with an incredibly hot and dry summer that was happening over there. So the more disasters happen, we need more volunteers to step up and deliver the services that we need to deliver. You know, you look at Manitoba flooding, British Columbia flooding I just mentioned mentioned earlier, every spring, they flood out in that community, and they're evacuated to other communities in northern Ontario, where they're living in hotels, until the water recedes, and then they go home. So I've responded to Timmins Ontario, for example, where I was a site manager, making sure that the tuck shops that we operated in hotels were fully stocked where people could get their deodorant, their diapers, their baby food, whatever, why they lived at the hotel. So we are always looking for new people because things happen. And you know, we've helped 9000 people this year and provided over $300 million in recovery funding across the country. I doubt very much that amount is going to go down in 2023. That's just the reality. One more example I can give you. Hurricane Fiona hit the Maritimes on September 24. I was in Nova Scotia in November. And we were still giving out $500 gift cards to people affected by the storm. Two months later. We've helped in the Maritimes. We've provided 5700 emergency items to people. And we've had 520 people, volunteers and staff respond, you know from across the country. We've had seven 6000 conversations with people who needed to talk to someone about hey, I'm having some real psychological issues here, this is having a major impact on my mental well being. So you know, 45 Oh sorry 45 reception centers were set up across the Maritimes. So that's just with one storm, one disaster. So, you know, we've got to be ready to respond to the next disaster which will happen, of course, with a warning or with a little warning. So that's why we are always looking for new people.

Dan Seguin 25:24

Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters, I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters, what is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?

Guy Lepage 25:47

House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times as people leave stuff on the stove, on attended, it spreads, fire starts and spreads, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives and but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assist the family to make sure they have lodging they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And then we're an emergency service. So after three days, and people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can't do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we will give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any any kind of disaster and, and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building is evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter and a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.

Guy Lepage 28:00

Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes,

Guy Lepage 28:13

I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you know, leave something unattended, and, and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where there were indeed mum and dad and three kids living in an apartment. And one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out get out. So we responded, they went to some friends, a friend's location too. So we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has soot on her face caused by the fire. And she starts crying and the teardrops are rolling down her cheeks through statements and I'll always remember that image because she was crying a) because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis. We will of course, but if you can prevent it that's even better.

Dan Seguin 29:52

This next one is important to many of our listeners. Often we feel powerless during an emergency, particularly when we lose electricity for an extended period of time. What are your recommendations on how people can prepare for emergencies? Is three days still the golden rule to follow?

Guy Lepage 30:15

Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours three days from now, from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire, whatever the situation, can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bays, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water. And we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and cook two liters. To wash and bait. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener, have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio. So you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning, I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight, there was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, you know, last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition, I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half, what am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication, enough pet food and enough water, enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.

Dan Seguin 32:55

Okay, Guy, are there special considerations for seniors, or other vulnerable groups that we should be aware of?

Guy Lepage 33:05

Medication is the most important one, because I'm generalizing here, of course, but more seniors that need medication than younger adults. But even anybody can need medication. So you've got to ensure you have enough medication on hand at all times. You know, certainly for three days in case you cannot get out for whatever reason. I mean, if a senior is living on his or her own, and runs out of medication, and in a family member who normally takes care of them can't make it, that is a major problem. So you have to plan for every scenario.

Dan Seguin 33:42

Now, besides emergency response, what other programs does the Canadian Red Cross provide that people might not be aware of?

Guy Lepage 33:51

There are several programs and everything I'm going to share with you is available on the redcross.ca first aid and CPR courses. And you know, we all know we should have this course. I've taken it because I have to. I'm a Red Cross volunteer. But you know, you hear oh, yeah, I'll get to that one day. And then you have a family member who has a heart attack or needs, you know, cuts themselves badly. How do we stop the bleeding? That kind of thing. So having a first aid and CPR course under your belt is highly recommended. Transportation: we offer transportation services for those in need that mentioned you know, elderly and disabled people in the community who can't use public transportation. You know, we'll keep people connected in their community by providing this kind of affordable transportation, whether it's medical appointments, even social gatherings or to go shopping, you know, that's another service that we provide meals on wheels. We need drivers to make sure those meals get to the people that need them. This helps people stay in their homes by making sure they eat a healthy diet. They have a healthy diet. We have a mobile food bank, and this service delivers food to persons who are unable to access food banks due to omitted or temporary disabilities, the friendly calls program, that's when you know, someone calls people who live by themselves and who can get lonely. We heard all kinds of stories during the pandemic, where people, because of pandemic rules, couldn't go out and visit friends and family. So this friendly calls program really helps people connect with those who just can't get out of their homes and are lonely. And it's really does make a huge difference. So, like I said, all kinds of different services for different interests and all the details are@redcross.ca.

Dan Seguin 35:34

Okay, finally, with everything you've experienced, and witnessed, what are you grateful for?

Guy Lepage 35:44

I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful for my family. And I'm grateful for the experience that I've had with the Red Cross, because it's taught me many things. But the most important thing is to not sweat the small stuff, when I get back from a deployment where people have lost everything they have. And they've got to start from scratch and go through a very stressful time. And then I'm standing in a coffee shop lineup. And I hear people complain about the service or the coffee is too hot, or they got my order wrong or whatever. I just shake my head and said, Come on, guys, you know, first world problems. I'm grateful for everything that I have. And I'm grateful for the opportunities I've been given to help people in time of crisis.

Dan Seguin 36:28

Guy, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?

Guy Lepage 36:35

K, I'm ready.

Dan Seguin 36:36

Okay, cool.

Dan Seguin 36:37

Now, what are you reading right now?

Guy Lepage 36:40

I'm a big Stephen King fan. And I'm reading a book called If It Bleeds. I'm behind on my Stephen King reading, because I know there's another one that's been released, and I'm hoping one of my family members will give it to me for Christmas.

Dan Seguin 36:54

Okay. What would be the name of your boat? If you had one? Or maybe have?

Guy Lepage 37:01

No, I doubt it would either be Val after my mother, or Jane after my wife.

Dan Seguin 37:06

Now, who is someone that you admire?

Guy Lepage 37:09

My mom and my wife! They the two most important people in my life. Who teach me teach me so much. My mother who raised me, of course, and my lovely bride who, you know, married 32 years and is still a source of inspiration and my biggest fan.

Dan Seguin 37:26

Okay, moving on here. Guy, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Guy Lepage 37:34

Oh, wow. I have to say, the resilience of people go through a crisis. I mean, it's, it's so inspiring that people have been knocked down, but they're the get up and shake themselves off and say, Okay, let's start rebuilding our lives. So I think that's, that's magical in its own right.

Dan Seguin 37:53

Okay. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Guy Lepage 38:01

I think initially it was the stress - the underlying stress. And when you think back to 2020, when there was no, no cure, no vaccine. And we are all literally stuck in our homes totally go out to the grocery store and other emergencies. Thoughts that that was difficult to deal with. Now unfortunate that I deal with stress as a volunteer and when in through work. That was, I think, the biggest challenge.

Dan Seguin 38:27

Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie? What are you watching right now?

Guy Lepage 38:36

I'm watching Ryan Reynolds, Canadian actor, as you may know, has his bottom soccer team or English football team over in Wales. And they've done a documentary on that really enjoying that. I'm rewatching Ted Lasso because the World Cup and soccer and football. I mean, I enjoyed it. First time around, and I'm enjoying it now. Anything that makes me laugh, I'm all for.

Dan Seguin 39:02

Well, Guy, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how should they connect?

Guy Lepage 39:15

redcross.ca has all the information that we've talked about, about the services we provide during a disaster following a disaster and even before a disaster. So redcross.ca is definitely the place to go for that kind of information.

Dan Seguin 39:30

Okay, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Guy Lepage 39:37

Thank you so much for having me. It has been a blast. Really enjoy sharing my adventures. I truly am a very lucky man to be able to do this. And as I said, share my adventures and thank you for having me, Dan.

Dan Seguin 39:50

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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To address climate change, we must be united, working together towards a common goal. But differing perspectives have created a complex and polarized debate: renewable energy versus fossil fuel versus nuclear power. These discussions require an open mind and constructive dialogue to find solutions that work for all stakeholders. In thinkenergy episode 106, Dr. Monica Gattinger, li, unpacks how we can build a stronger way forward for Canada – together.

Related links

• Positive Energy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/positive-energy
• Positive Energy, Twitter: https://twitter.com/uOttawa_Energy
• The Institute for Science, Society and Policy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/issp
• The Institute for Science, Society and Policy, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-science-society-and-policy/
• Monica Gattinger, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monica-gattinger-748a6a42/
• Monica Gattinger, Twitter: https://twitter.com/MonicaGattinger

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry,

Dan Seguin 00:28

Everyone, welcome back. Energy and climate change are important topics that have been increasingly discussed in recent years due to the significant impact they have on the environment, the economy, and society as a whole. The effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels, increased frequency of extreme weather events, and loss of biodiversity are widely recognized by the scientific community. However, there are different views on the best ways to address these issues, particularly in terms of energy policy, and the way we live, work, consume and travel. While some advocate for the transition to renewable energy sources, others still argue for the continued use of fossil fuels or the development of other technologies such as nuclear energy.

Dan Seguin 01:27

These differing perspectives have created a complex and often polarized debate. It is important to approach these discussions with an open mind, consider the evidence and engage in constructive dialogue to find common ground and solutions that work for all stakeholders. We've often heard that working together and respecting different opinions are essential for effective collaboration and innovation. For climate change, it's more important than ever, that we come together to work towards a common goal. So here is today's big question. When it comes to energy, and climate, are we able to consider diverse perspectives so we can identify blind spots, and challenge assumptions that will ultimately lead to a stronger way forward for Canada. Today, my special guest is Dr. Monica Gattinger. She's the director of the Institute for Science, Society and Policy. She's a full professor at the School of Political Studies and founder Chair of Positive Energy at the University of Ottawa. Monica, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners a bit about yourself, and how the positive energy program that you found it at the University of Ottawa came to be?

Monica Gattinger 02:55

Thanks, happy to. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa. And I've been a student of energy, Dan it kind of pains me to say it, for but going on three decades now. And I guess about maybe 10 years ago or so around 2014-2015, you might remember at that time, there was a lot of contentiousness in the energy sector, particularly around pipeline development. And I think, you know, I felt a certain frustration that I'd go to energy conferences, and we'd all kind of get concerned about this. And, you know, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air, but what was happening, and then walk away, come back at the next conference to do the same thing. So the idea that I had was to create an initiative that would convene leaders who were concerned about these issues of public confidence and energy decision making, convening them together to try to identify what some of the key challenges are. And then I would undertake a research team, some solution focused, applied academic research to actually feed that process on an ongoing basis. So it's, you know, not just conferences, we walk away conferences, we walk away, it's, let's put in place a process to actually excuse me to actually get to some solution seeking on the challenges.

Dan Seguin 04:11

Okay, now, I have to ask you, because I love the name, given how polarizing energy has been for a number of years now, is the name meant to have a double meaning?

Monica Gattinger 04:20

Yes, it is. You are exactly right. That was you know, at the time when we created that name, that was precisely what we were trying to do, which is let's have some positive discussions about energy. I think the other thing I'd point to is, you know, for us, and it's always been the case that energy is all energy. So yes, at the time when we created positive energy, you know, what was in the news was big pipelines. But many of these issues and the challenges that we address with our work, apply to all energy sources, whether it's, you know, electricity, oil and gas at the upstream downstream, midstream sectors, so we really wanted to try to foster a pan Canadian approach on on the issues with energy as the core.

Dan Seguin 05:10

Monica, in one of your research reports, you acknowledge that division is eroding public trust and preventing progress. Why is that happening? Is it a lack of understanding around climate change and Canada's goals? Or is it more about the method or policies in place to get there?

Monica Gattinger 05:32

That's a super important question, Dan. And it's really at the heart of what we're aiming to do with positive energy. So if you look at where we're at now, on energy and climate, there's, you know, a tremendous global move towards net zero. And, of course, this is going to mean just a wholesale transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. So, you know, there are bound to be disagreements of division over how we go about doing that. And I think, you know, one of the crucial things about this energy transition in comparison to previous energy transitions, is that it's going to be largely policy driven, like, yes, there will be market developments, but policy is going to be playing such an important role. So to your question, you know, a lot of this is around the methods or the policies that we're going to be putting in place when it comes to energy transition. And I think our work really starts from the, you know, the very strong belief that if we don't have public confidence in government decision making over energy and climate, we're not going to be able to make ongoing forward progress on either energy or, or climate objectives. And for us, public confidence is, you know, the confidence of people, whether as citizens, as consumers as community members, but it's also the confidence of investors, right, we know that we're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy infrastructure, without the investor confidence to make that happen, we're not going to be able to to, you know, achieve the emissions reductions that are envisioned envisaged. So for us that whole question of division, and how do we address division, where it exists, is just fundamental to our efforts.

Dan Seguin 07:17

Okay. Now, do you think we lack a shared positive vision as Canadians on the future? And how we get there together? How do we build bridges? Is this what you're trying to achieve with positive energy?

Monica Gattinger 07:32

Yeah, I'd say yes or no, on the shared vision. So you know, we do a lot of public opinion, polling researchers, as you might know, Dan, and and, you know, uniformly Canadian scores, government's very poorly, on whether they are succeeding and developing a shared vision for Canada's energy future. That said, you know, I don't see it all as a whole bad news, there is remarkable alignment of views among Canadians on many aspects of the country's energy future, I think sometimes what, what we tend to hear, you know, are the voices in political debates and in the media, and in the end in the media, that are on you know, sort of opposite ends of a spectrum, if you look at, you know, sort of where Canadians are at, in general, you know, in terms of the majority opinions, they're often much more aligned than what you might think, by listening to some of our political debates or reading the media. So I think what we're trying to do at positive energies is a few things. One is, you know, to really try to see just how divided we are, and a lot of our work has brought forward that we're not as divided as we might think, on some of these issues. And the second thing we're trying to do is provide a forum for people who do want to work constructively and positively to chart a positive path forward, provide that forum for those to do that, and then to undertake academic research to support that. And one of the things that we found is that there's just a tremendous appetite for that kind of initiative.

Dan Seguin 09:05

Okay, Monica, hoping you can shed some light on this next item. What do you mean, when you see that Canada is at a log jam when it comes to charting our energy future?

Monica Gattinger 09:19

That's a great question. Because, you know, when I think about when we wrote that, that was a few that were written a few years ago. So it kind of answers that question a little bit differently now than I would have if you'd asked it at the time that we wrote it. So if you think about it, cast your mind back to 2015. And the creation between the federal government and the provinces of the pan Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change, there was a lot of alignment between the federal government and provinces and territories around climate change. And then we had some electoral turnover and new governments coming into power at the provincial level and the round sort of the 2018 period and that relative peace between federal and provincial governments began to be overturned. And so that, you know, the log jam that we were referring to was really written at that period of time, we were seeing a lot of fractiousness between the federal government and provincial governments. And don't get me wrong, we still see, we still see some of that, but certainly not to the level we did at that time. So I think it over the last few years, we've seen much greater alignment emerge in the country, notably around the concept of net zero, which we think is really, really, really constructive progress. I think, where we see some of the challenges now is moving to implementation, right? How do we move to reduce emissions and actually roll up our sleeves and do it in a way that will build and maintain public confidence? That's, you know, that's very much where we're casting our efforts these days.

Dan Seguin 10:50

Okay, cool. And what are some of the weaknesses you found in energy decision making?

Monica Gattinger 10:56

So I think there are a few that I would point to, you know, one would be and our current work is zeroing in on this more than we have in the past, is the whole question of energy security. And by that what, what we're referring to is the reliability and affordability and availability of energy. So in the absence, I mean, Dan, you know, you work at hydro Ottawa, so you would know, when you know, when the lights go out. People are nervous, it really captures their attention. I'll put it that way. And so in the absence of, you know, reliable, affordable energy, it's going to be very difficult to make ongoing progress on emissions reductions. So that whole question of energy security is one of the what I'd say is sort of the weaknesses in the frame that policymakers are often bringing to, to energy decision making, I think a second area that really is going to need some attention is our policy and regulatory frameworks for energy project decision making. I mean, we know, let's say, you know, take electrification, if we're going to be moving forward on electrification in a meaningful way. Most reasonable estimates assume we're going to need to double or triple our generating capacity in the country, and all the infrastructure transmission, local distribution, all that goes along with that, that's going to require building a whole lot of infrastructure. And so there's definitely some weaknesses there in our existing frameworks for doing that. And then the third area I'd point to is collaboration between governments. And so yes, federal and provincial, but it's also increasingly, municipal governments as well need to be collaborating with other levels of government and indigenous governments too, so bringing together that collaboration across jurisdictions is an area where there's a lot of a lot of strength that we're going to need to be building.

Dan Seguin 12:47

Okay, Monica, following up on this theme, positive energy has conducted a number of public opinion surveys since 2015, to gauge Canadian support for the country's climate commitments and their views on our international credibility. What are some surprises? And have you seen any change in attitudes since you started the surveys?

Monica Gattinger 13:11

Yeah, we've done a lot of work. We have a fantastic partnership with Nanos research, we've been working with Nick Nanos and the Nanos team since 2015, we've done lots of public opinion polling along the way. And so I think, you know, one of the things that has surprised me the most about this, and maybe it's just my own naivete as as a, you know, an academic researcher, but is just the pragmatism of Canadians, you know, many of the questions that we put to Canadians come back with very pragmatic and balanced responses. So there seems to be that recognition on the part of, of Canadians of the need to take a balanced approach to energy and climate issues. So I'll give you just a couple of quick examples. So we've been tracking Canadians level of climate ambition, we started doing this actually, during the pandemic. And so we asked people on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is now the worst time and 10 is the best time to take action on climate, you know, what, what, how would you score things? And, you know, the majority of Canadians, you know, score things strongly, they want to see climate action. We've seen some weakening of that, notably, as we've got some weakening of the economic conditions that has weakened people's appetite. So that's sort of one thing we, you know, Canadians want climate action. On the second. Second thing I'd point to is, we've done a lot of tracking as well, around Canadians views on the importance of oil and gas to Canada's current economy and to its future economy. And so, you know, there again, we see what you might expect, which is people there's a recognition that oil and gas is important to Canada's current economy. Views tend to drop off a little bit in terms of its importance to the future economy, but much stronger than I would have anticipated in terms of the level of, you know, opinions when it comes to the strength, or when it comes to the importance, apologies of oil and gas and Canada's current and future economy. One thing I'm just going to, you know, like heads up, we've got a study coming out very shortly. And we've seen a jump in Canadians' views around the importance of oil and gas to the country's current and future economy. And we're thinking that this might be because of economic conditions having changed, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine, just creating a different kind of an environment for Canadians opinions, then the last thing I point to that, for me is kind of been surprising, but in a not always fun way is that we've also been tracking Canadians views on government's performance on energy and climate issues. And then it doesn't matter what aspect of government performance we ask people about, they always score it like so weak, like weak to the point, when we first asked this question, I'm like, Nick, do people you know, just kind of score governments weekly? And so this is just, you know, typical stuff. He's like, No, Monica, that's really low scores. So I think there's a recognition there on the part of Canadians that governments have a lot of work to do, that this is difficult stuff, to to to take on. But that we're going to need to if we're going to be able to achieve some of our climate ambition in the country.

Dan Seguin 16:27

Now, let's dig into the research. First, can you tell us who you're convening and bringing together to conduct your research and who your intended audience is? Who do you want to influence?

Monica Gattinger 16:42

Yeah, so we're bringing together leaders, from business, from government and from government, we're referring to both policymakers and regulatory agencies, leaders from indigenous organizations, from civil society organizations, like environmental NGOs, and then academics, like myself. And our aim is really with the research and convening that we're undertaking is to inform decision making, you know, so the key audience for this from our perspective as government decision makers, whether policymakers or regulators at, you know, at at any level of government, really, more broadly, in our we're working very closely with the energy and climate community at large. So our intended audience isn't, you know, sort of the general public per se, although I like to think that we're sort of working on their behalf in terms of a lot of the work, a lot of the work that we're doing

Dan Seguin 17:37

Great stuff, Monica, now, let's talk about your first multi year research phase, public confidence in energy decision making. Why is it important to start here?

Monica Gattinger 17:49

Yeah, for us, this was really crucial to try to dig into and understand why we are facing these challenges to public confidence in decision making, for energy and climate issues. And, you know, believe it or not, we spent about two years trying to dig into that problem and identify all of its different, all of its different components. So we published a study in that first phase of research called system under stress, where we were focusing on energy decision making, and the need to inform, sorry, to reform energy decision making in that study, and this was sort of how we unpack this challenge of public confidence. We use this metaphor of elephants, horses, and sitting ducks. And so the elephants were elephants in the room. So at that time, one of the big issues that was, you know, informing or leading to challenges in public confidence was that there was a belief on the part of quite a few folks that governments were taking insufficient action on climate change. And as a result of that, not having a forum, you know, to move forward action on climate change, many folks who were concerned about that or raising those issues in regulatory processes for individual energy projects, right? And if your regulators say, well, that's not part of my mandate. So what would we do with this, and that led to some challenges. Another Elephant, you know, another elephant in the room at that time was reconciliation with indigenous peoples, that there was insufficient action on the part, you know, on the, you know, in the minds of many around reconciliation with indigenous peoples and so, you know, some of the big challenges that indigenous communities were facing, whether missing, murdered indigenous women, you know, potable drinking water, economic conditions, a whole host of challenges were also being raised in the context of individual energy project decision making. The process for lack of other forums to take those concerns to another elephant in the room was cumulative effects. Right. So communities were concerned not necessarily about a particular project, but about the project that came before the project, who was going to come after it, and what would be the cumulative effects on their community. So that was sort of the elephant, the elephant in the room policy gaps, basically, that governments needed to take more action to fulfill. When it came to the horses, we were referring to horses that had left the barn. So in other words, changes in society and the broader, you know, context, where you're not going to turn the clock back on them. So things like, you know, people expect, rightly, to have a say, in decisions that affect them. They're not different, you know, they don't defer the way they used to, to governments and to decision makers, they expect to have a say in decisions that affect them. And some of our decision making processes weren't frankly, providing sufficient opportunities for them to be heard. Technological change, right, you know, you're not going to turn the clock back on social media. And that also has fundamentally changed the context in terms of how information circulates capacities for misinformation, disinformation, etc. And so when against this backdrop, you know, who are the sitting ducks? Well, the sitting ducks are government decision makers, right? They're trying to deal with all of these challenges. We got a lot of traction with that report, Dan, because I think it sort of helped people to, you know, frame up, what is the nature of the challenge that we're facing when it comes to public confidence, which of course, then begins to open up solution spaces?

Dan Seguin 21:40

Okay. What did you uncover when it came to the role of local communities?

Monica Gattinger 21:46

Yeah, we did a major study on this, it was some of this was happening concurrently. But we did a major study in collaboration with the Canada West Foundation, where we did some very deep dive case study research on half a dozen energy projects across the country with the aim of identifying drivers of local community satisfaction or dissatisfaction with energy project, decision making processes. So these were projects, you know, wind, gas plants, hydro facilities, transmission lines, pipelines, shale development, like a whole variety of different kinds of projects in different locations across the country. And so there are a few things I'd point to there in terms of some of the key findings. Probably the first and foremost is the importance of early and meaningful consultation and engagement. And I feel kind of silly saying that, because it's like, we have been saying this for years, how important this is. But yet, you know, there are still proponents that aren't necessarily, you know, aren't necessarily getting out there early and in a meaningful way, to communities. I think the second thing, and it's related, that I'd point to is the importance of information, like yes, communities want information about a project. But it's an what we refer to in the report is a necessary but insufficient condition, right, just saying, you know, here's the project, here's the information, this should change your mind, if you've got any concerns, really and truly is not is not enough, you need that meaningful engagement, you need to hear from people. And in some instances, this is a third thing I'd point to. In some instances, you know, it's important to draw the distinction between what a community's interests are so it could be, you know, economic development, jobs, etc, but also what their values are. And there may be some projects that even though they might advance the community's interests, in terms of jobs, etc, if they run counter to community values, and what they want to see developed in their community, it will be very challenging to foster support for up for a project. Another thing, we found just a couple more things that point to here. Another thing we found that I think is going to be increasingly important as we move on net zero and emissions reductions, oftentimes at the community level, the key environmental issue is local environmental impacts, as opposed to global climate change impacts. So even if you've got a project that's going to be good for the climate, if it's got local environmental impacts from the perspective of a community, those concerns may actually trump the good that could be done more broadly when it comes to the climate. And so I guess the last thing I'd point to is, you know, just the importance of process, having a decision making process in which people can have faith. And so, you know, we did a lot of work right in communities. So you'd have community members say, like, I can get behind a decision that I don't agree with, you know, if my perspective is at the end of the day, we're heard in a meaningful way and were considered in a meaningful way. But governments decided to go in a different direction. I can, you know, I can live with that as long as I felt that the process was one that was legitimate. So that process piece is so important at the community level.

Dan Seguin 25:02

Okay, now, what were some of the biggest takeaways from your project? Monica? Were you surprised by any of the data?

Monica Gattinger 25:09

Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I probably go back to the local versus global impacts piece, I think that is a circle, we're gonna have to figure out how to square for lack of a better a better metaphor here going forward, because many of the projects that we're going to need in the years ahead in terms of emissions reductions, they are going to have local environmental impacts. You know, and it doesn't take long to think about examples of that, right. So think about mining for critical minerals, think about transmission infrastructure, think I mean, on and on and on. And so thinking through how do we, you know, be respectful of local communities ensure we've got processes in place that that they can have faith in and ensure that local environmental impacts are mitigated in a meaningful fashion? And frankly, no has to be an option sometimes, right? There are some projects that have to receive a no of all projects are greenlighted, that puts the entire system into question in people's minds.

Dan Seguin 26:15

Okay, Monica, your second research phase just concluded Canada's energy future in an age of climate change. What challenges and opportunities were you focused on? And what did you uncover?

Monica Gattinger 26:28

That's a big question, Dan. So maybe just a couple of things I'll point to. The first is to say that, you know, for that particular project, because it was or that phase because it got underway at a time where there was quite a lot of fractiousness between the federal and provincial governments. We took on the topic of polarization, in that phase of the research to try to understand, you know, just how polarized are we, when it comes to energy and climate issues? And, and the, you know, the, the, the fortunate answer was that we're not as polarized as we might think, on some of these issues. So those areas where, you know, people's opinions are truly at opposite ends of a spectrum, they've got their heels dug in, the opinions are very hardened and crystallized, they're not willing to move, you know, there's, those are very few and far between a lot more of the division that we see back to that word division that we talked about earlier, Dan, it so those are opinions that are maybe a little bit more malleable to change, where you can potentially bring people together and have a constructive, constructive conversation to move things forward. So that the polarization, the polarization work, I think was really important to try to, you know, shine a light empirically on just how polarized are we, one thing that did come out of that work, though, that I think is really important to note is that a lot of the polarization that we see is along partisan lines. And so it's really important to have and create non-partisan forums for people to come together because partisan polarization on energy and climate issues can be quite challenging. So we looked at polarization, we also looked at, we continued our work around sort of roles and responsibilities of different government authorities in energy and climate decision making, we did a really big project around energy regulators with, you know, again, thinking about how important they are going to be in the future when it comes to energy project proposals and evaluating energy project proposals. And I think, you know, what came out of that work is just the importance of creating regulatory frameworks that are functional, right, they're going to enable us to get to a decision. But that is adaptable. You know, we know there are going to be new energy sources, new technologies we're going to need to be adapting our frameworks over time. And that are, you know, absolutely this crucial element and of legitimate that they are that people have confidence in those decision making processes. But it's not just about regulators. It's also about the broader policy context within which they work, you know, the need for regulatory agencies to be operating in the context of clear policy frameworks. You know, for there to be a good understanding between policymakers and regulators they have their respective roles when it comes to things like energy project, energy project approvals. The third area that we focused on in this most recent phase of research was models of and limits to consensus building, right. So if we do have division, how do we try to foster consensus and we recognize we're not going to get to you know, everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya there. This is politics, there will be, there will be divisions. But we did a lot of work on this whole concept of what are some of the models that can be utilized to foster consensus? What are some of the limits to those models? And the sort of bottom line of that research is that progress is possible when it comes to consensus building, but it's not easy. It's a hard one, it takes time, it takes a lot of thoughtful preparation and care to put in place processes that will drive towards positive outcomes.

Dan Seguin 30:32

Okay. Now, there were five case studies that came out of this phase intended to identify what works when it comes to public confidence in decision making. What are some of the highlights?

Monica Gattinger 30:44

Yeah, and this kind of picks up on the question of consensus building and models of and limits to consensus building. So we undertook a number of case studies of different initiatives that have been tried in Canada to try to foster consensus. So we looked, for example, at the Alberta climate leadership plan, we looked at the Eco fiscal commission, we looked at the National roundtable on the environment of the economy, we looked at the just transition Task Force on the coal fired power phase out. So this was a mixture of federal provincial, government, non government, current past initiatives. And there are a few things that I point to that, you know, came out of that work. The first is that there are no silver bullets. I mean, Boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were easy answers to these really tough questions, but there are not easy answers to these really tough questions. They, you know, it really is important to, to have kind of a multi pronged approach. And more than one approach, there isn't going to be one single initiative that's going to solve all of these challenges. But process matters process really matters. So who is involved? How are decisions taken? You know, is the process seen as legitimate? That's really, you know, absolutely the place to start with any of these processes around consensus building. Again, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right. So you can have in place a process that is designed to, you know, bring forward recommendations to the government on policy. But if people don't have trust in the information that's produced by that initiative, you've got a problem, right? So I think the Eco fiscal commission was really interesting in that, in that case, because it brought together an advisory board, that included representation from a variety of different political parties, the aim being to see if these folks can come together, and you know, work together and have confidence in this process, then others are more likely to have confidence in the information that's produced on the studies that are produced by by in that case, the ecofiscal, commission, there are a lot of relationships between different processes. So for example, you know, if you think about the development of a carbon price in Canada, you know, yes, that's where the Eco fiscal commission was focusing a lot of its efforts. But the Alberta climate leadership plan, in part paved the way towards the development of a federal price on carbon, because of the work that was done in the province to put in place a carbon pricing a carbon pricing scheme. And then the final thing, and this isn't something that people always like to hear, unfortunately, is that building consensus takes time. And it's something that is, as we know, in the current context with, you know, with climate change is something that we don't necessarily have the luxury of having. So it's how do you sort of hold those two things in your hand at the same time, and I often use the example of a carbon tax, having a carbon tax in Canada is a massive achievement for the country. But it took probably a decade or more to get there. And that's only one small in the big scheme of things policy tool. So you know, no silver bullets. It takes time, but it is possible. So progress is possible, but it's hard won.

Dan Seguin 34:12

Okay, now, this was fascinating. Monica, you identified two realities of energy and environmental leaders in Canada, when it comes to Canada's energy transition. Maybe you can unpack that for us just a bit more.

Monica Gattinger 34:29

Yeah, for sure. So this was a really, really neat study, one of the things that we found in our work, because we convene when we are, you know, very close to a lot of energy and environmental leaders. One of the things that we were finding is that this word transition could have elements to it that were kind of polarizing. And so for some folks, it was something that actually drove them away from our table rather than bringing them to our table. So being academics, we thought, well, let's do a study on this. What do people think transition is? What does it mean to them? Why are we running into these issues? And I have to credit our former Research Director, Dr. Marissa Beck, this was her idea, it was her study, she did an absolutely tremendous job. So she went out there and spoke with over 40 energy and environmental leaders across the country. And, and what, you know, what emerged from that work was that there were really two different realities that people inhabited, either, you know, sort of in whole, or in part, when it comes to transition. And we didn't name the realities, we just stated them, you know, in a very, in a very sort of fact based way. And they differed in terms of scope, and pace of change. And, you know, so in one of the realities, you know, the, the idea is that we're going to have a more measured pace of change, it's going to be driven by market developments, some policy developments, we're going to in the future have, you know, a diverse energy portfolio that's going to include, you know, a variety of different energy sources, yes, in different proportions than we currently have them. But you know, that oil and gas, for instance, is going to be a part of the future. So that's sort of one reality, the other reality grounded in a much more, you know, ambitious, rapid, need for change, quickly grounded in science, much stronger role for government in terms of setting out the policy framework, much greater attention to the need to, notably to phase down oil and gas and in particular oil. And so you can imagine if you've got folks inhabiting these different realities, it is difficult for them to come together, because they're often talking past. They're often talking past one another. And, and so we didn't necessarily have any solutions for this proposed in that particular, in that particular study. I think our work really does try to do some convening around those issues. But what it really did in this particular study resonated so well, with folks in the Energy and Environment communities, we had people saying, like you just nailed it. Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. And so you would have folks say, you know, well, the reality is, or we just need an honest conversation. But what the reality meant to them, what an honest conversation would mean to them was, was something completely different than folks inhabiting the other reality. And so these are the kinds of challenges, you know, Dan, that we, we hope to shed light on with our work. And we also hope to also address the research and convening as well.

Dan Seguin 37:50

Now, your third phase has just begun. What can you tell us so far, about strengthening public confidence on the road to net zero and the areas you're looking to cover in your research over the next several years?

Monica Gattinger 38:07

Yeah, no, that's a great opportunity to share this with you, Dan. Thanks. Thanks so much. So yeah, I mean, if our first phase was focused on public confidence, and kind of the here and now, second phase was Canada's energy future in an age of climate change, this phase is the longest term, longest term phase yet in terms of looking at net zero. And looking at 2050. We've got four areas that we're focusing in on in terms of this research, that really build in many ways on the work that we've done to date, we've been talking so far data about the importance of regulation, and having energy project decision making systems that are going to foster and support the kind of change to our energy systems that we're going to need. That's a big, a big area for us, one of the areas as well, that we're going to start to be getting into an in a more meaningful way, is downstream regulation as well, because with the, you know, with the growing attention to electrification, this is going to mean, you know, greater focus to what are our regulatory frameworks for energy delivery, whether it's in power markets, or in gas markets. And we think that there's, there's something that we will have to offer there as well, in terms of our work. So that's on the regulatory front. Another topic that for us, we think is really important is this whole question of energy security. And by that, you know, again, this isn't just about what's happening in global energy markets, it's what's happening domestically as well in terms of the need of the need to have reliable and affordable energy to ensure that we don't, you know, take one step forward and then two steps back on emissions reductions. So it's really very much about solving for Yes, emissions reductions and affordable reliable energy simultaneously, which in our observation is something that you know, has has not always been on the radar of policymakers, I think the energy system has just done such a great job of providing reliable, affordable energy that it's not always thought about. And yet, you know, if we're going to be transforming our energy systems, it better be front and center. Or we could really run into some challenges in terms of public confidence on the road ahead. The third area we're zeroing in on is intergovernmental collaboration. We are a federation, we are a federation with increasing roles and authority for indigenous governments, as well. So it's really about how do we make sure we've got good collaboration between federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous and municipal governments on the road ahead. And again, it's that kind of collaboration, collaboration piece. And then finally, we're going to continue with the public opinion survey research. And that work generally aims to support the other streams of research. So we're asking questions that relate to some of the broader work that we're doing. Cool. Okay.

Dan Seguin 41:07

I know you're going to tell me it's early Monica, but based on what the data and public service have shown over these many years, is Net Zero. resonating with people?

Monica Gattinger 41:19

Well, interestingly, so last June, we held a conference to mark the, you know, the conclusion of phase two and the launch of phase three. And we did some public opinion survey research going into that conference, including some questions around net zero. So we asked people if they had heard about net zero. And then we asked them, you know, the dreaded open ended question, and what does it mean to you? So it's one thing to have heard about, it's another thing to, you know, be asked to define it. And I was really surprised at like, the majority, like a strong majority of people had heard of net zero. And when asked to define it provided a definition that was pretty on target. So people, you know, I don't know if that means it's resonating with people. But they have definitely absorbed that this concept, and that this is something that, you know, is in policymakers is in policymakers minds. I think the other thing I would note, though, is you know, there's netzero, and then there's just emissions reductions writ large, the work that we've done around Canadian support for emissions reductions, climate change, policy, etc, shows just time and again, Canadians want to see this, they want to see emissions reductions, they want to see it done in a balanced way back to the pragmatic response I was giving earlier. But they're definitely, definitely committed to that.

Dan Seguin 42:43

Okay, now, when do you expect your first publication will be shared?

Monica Gattinger 42:47

So we've got our quarterly public opinion surveys that come out every few months. We actually have some, we're just finalizing a study right now that will be published very, very shortly. In terms of the research publications, we've got two underway right now, that should be published within the next number of months. One is looking at regulation for project decision making, and in particular, this whole question of timelines. So if you talk with folks, you know, in industry and in government, right now, they'll say, Well, we got to build all this stuff. But can we build it fast enough? And so that's actually the title of the project? Can we build it out fast enough? And we're focusing on what are some of the issues when it comes to regulatory frameworks for project decision making. So that's one study that should be coming out within the next few months. And then a second one, it's republication of a study that we completed for the Canadian Gas Association, electricity Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but this time last year, which was looking at regulation of energy delivery systems and power and gas markets, you're looking at international case studies to try to identify like, how are other countries grappling with the challenges of netzero in their power and gas markets. So we're going to be updating and republishing that study. We're in the process of doing that right now, that should be coming out in the next few months. And the case studies that we're looking at in that research are Western Australia, the United Kingdom, which as you might imagine, is a very interesting case study given the challenges that they've had on their power and gas markets. And New York State.

Dan Seguin 44:25

Just wondering here, is there anything you can tell us about your appointment to the province's New Energy Transition panel, its objectives and how you feel this could move the energy conversation forward in Ontario.

Monica Gattinger 44:39

Thanks for the question. I mean, I'm, you know, let's be honest, I'm an energy geek. And so it is just an unbelievable honor to have been appointed to the panel. This for me, is a dream appointment. I'm just so so so enthused about it. I'm not going to be able to speak on behalf of the panel. It's too Early in our work, but I will just share, you know, in my personal capacity now that I think the panel does have the capacity or the potential to be really quite important to the province's energy future. So if you think about, you know, the research that we've been doing at positive energy, the importance of informed decision making on the part of governments to recognize all of the strengths, limitations, consequences, intended or otherwise, of their decisions on energy and climate. So the panel, I think, has a great opportunity to help inform decision making. But as I've said, on a couple of occasions, today, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right process matters. And, you know, the panel, again, has the potential to be a very important process in terms of its engagement, and meaningful engagement with stakeholders, with indigenous partners, with all those who are interested in the province's energy future. So, you know, a couple of just additional things I would say. One is that the panel's focus in its mandate on long term energy planning, I think, I think is very important, because we're gonna need to plan and think through the long term more than we ever have before in terms of our energy systems when it comes to emissions reductions. I think the other thing, you know, I would lastly, but not leastly, I would recognize, you know, the importance of affordability and reliability. You know, yes, undertaking emissions reductions, but ensuring it's done in a reliable and affordable way. That enables, you know, economic competitiveness and the like. And that's something that, you know, that this government, the Ontario government, brings to the table, which I think is extremely important and will be crucial for the future.

Dan Seguin 46:53

Okay, Monica. Now, if you could speak to everyone in Canada, what would you want people to know, that you think is not widely known? Or understood?

Monica Gattinger 47:06

Yeah, there are a few things I would point to there. I think one would be the scale of the transformation that we're contemplating with netzero. I mean, if you take electrification, just as an example, you know, about only about 20% of and use energy, I mean, I'm telling you this, Dan, you know, all this stuff, but only about 20%. The venue's energy, you know, is currently accounted for by electricity. If we're looking to scale that up, you know, depending on what model you look at, but let's say you're looking to scale that up to you know, 80%, that's four times what it where it currently stands, this is a massive, massive transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. And I think that's one area where, you know, there isn't necessarily as much understanding as there could be in terms of the scale. Like, the second thing that I would love to get out there is that, you know, there's often a view that industry is, you know, dragging its heels, it's, you know, putting in place roadblocks, it's acting as a barrier. That's not what I see, in our engagements with folks in industry across the country, and a whole variety of different energy, different segments of the energy sector. Industry is there. What, you know, the real challenge now is kind of how do we move from the what, to the how, and foster an environment that will foster the kind of change that the companies are really looking to make. And then the third area that I would point to is reconciliation with indigenous peoples. We haven't spoken about that too much this morning. But that's one of the areas over the last number of years where there has just been such a fundamental change in the way industry, and indigenous communities and governments are working together. I think what we often see in you know, in the newspapers in the media is instances of conflict, you know, for obvious reasons, that's, that's, you know, what the media is going to be drawn to, but there are so many examples of just unbelievably constructive, meaningful partnerships between indigenous communities and industry. And I think that's something that you know, that that really is, is just a wonderful, wonderful change over the last few years.

Dan Seguin 49:24

Lastly, Monica, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I'm hoping you say you're ready.

Monica Gattinger 49:33

Okay, I'm ready. I'll do my best.

Monica Gattinger 49:36

Here we go.What are you reading right now?

Monica Gattinger 49:39

I am reading The Heart Goes Last by Margaret Atwood. You would think you know, during a global pandemic, you wouldn't read dystopian fiction, but that's what I'm doing. Terrific. Terrific book. by Margaret Atwood.

Dan Seguin 49:52

Okay, Monica, what would you name your boat? If you had one or maybe you do have one?

Monica Gattinger 49:58

I do not have one but if I did I think I would name it Smooth Sailing, because that's what I'd want to be doing when I was on my boat.

Dan Seguin 50:05

Okay, who is someone that you really admire?

Monica Gattinger 50:09

Oh, without question. My parents. You know, we've had some pretty tragic things happen in my family and they have, you know, continued to be positive soldier on, be great grandparents to my kids, I don't know how they do it, I admire them to the moon and back, as they say,

Dan Seguin 50:26

Okay, moving on, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witness?

Monica Gattinger 50:33

That's a tough one, I think I'd say I spent a lot of time outdoors. We have dogs. So I'm often out with the dogs, I ride horses. So I'm often out horseback riding anything in nature, there are so many magical moments where you see, you know, ways that animals are interacting with one another or things happening. Things happening in the, you know, in the plant environment and ecosystem that to me are just magical, and remind me of just how little we know about the world around us.

Dan Seguin 51:06

Okay, Monica, that's cool. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,

Monica Gattinger 51:13

My family has been extremely fortunate during the pandemic. So yeah, it feels almost kind of trite to talk about challenges. I think if there's one thing that I would point to, though, it's the last time it's the last time notably, in my family's case, between my sons and their grandparents. You know, my youngest son used to go to his grandparents house every day after school, they'd feed him snacks, he'd come home, that's gone. They've you know, they've they're missing him growing into a young man, that's, that's been really, really tough. I mean, it's a first world problem. I, you know, we really have been fortunate. But that last time is, unfortunately, and we're just not going to get that back.

Dan Seguin 51:58

Now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite shows are movie

Monica Gattinger 52:06

I could talk for hours about this. But if I had to just pick one, the whole Yellowstone series, I am just crazy for that series, you know, because I horseback ride anything that involves horses and ranches. And my own family history, you know, involves homesteading. Just that whole series Yellowstone 1883 1923. And he was talking about magic down the fact that all of that comes out of Taylor Sheridan's brain that fast I have, I don't understand at all. But I really enjoy watching it. That series is just phenomenal.

Dan Seguin 52:45

Lastly, Monica, what is exciting you about your industry right now.

Monica Gattinger 52:50

I think it's the people who are now on the let's roll up our sleeves face. And let's figure out how to know how to get this done. There's the waterfront of challenges seems endless, but the fact that that there's much more alignment among industry, government, civil society, you know, take your pick indigenous organizations, etc, about ensuring that we're reducing emissions, and, you know, the desire to work together to figure out how, to me is really exciting.

Dan Seguin 53:20

Well, Monica, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect or find out more?

Monica Gattinger 53:35

We have a website that you will be welcomed to, to reach out to just type into Google "University of Ottawa positive energy" and it should pop up for you. People are welcome to reach out to me personally, you know, again, easy to find me on the Internet, email addresses and the like. I'd be happy to hear from people.

Dan Seguin 53:55

Again. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.

Monica Gattinger 53:59

This was great. Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate the opportunity.

Dan Seguin 54:03

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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What challenges and opportunities do Ottawa residents face as Canada moves towards net zero? In episode 114 of thinkenergy, host Dan Seguin chats with the former Mayor of Ottawa to find out. Jim Durrell is a distinguished personality, with an extensive career in sports, politics, and the energy sector. Listen as he shares his experience as Chair of Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc. since 2012, including recent changes to the electricity sector and his vision for the future of energy in Ottawa.

Related links

• Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc.: https://powerasone.ca/
• Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc. Board of Directors: https://powerasone.ca/about/board-of-directors/

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Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Those rollers me and welcome back. Our guest today is a distinguished personality, with an extensive and impressive career in sports, politics, and the energy sector. Jim Durrell, Former Mayor of Ottawa and Chair of the Board at Hydro Ottawa. Attended Acadia University at the age of 17, where he was the quarterback and CO captain of the Acadia Axman football team. He learned valuable lessons during this experience, which helped shape his future career. He has a passion for sports, and a commitment to bringing world class sporting events to Ottawa, including the 1988 Grey Cup game, and a triple A baseball franchise to the city. Jim served as the president of the Ottawa Senators, and has been inducted in the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame as a builder. We will talk to Jim about how these achievements prepared him for his role as a mayor and the many board positions he has held, including his current role as Chair of Hydro Ottawa. Jim will share with us the biggest changes he has seen in the electricity sector since he joined the board in 2012. And his vision for Ottawas energy future. So, here is today's big question for Jim. What are the greatest challenges and opportunities that Ottawa residents face in moving towards Net Zero? Jim, welcome to the show. I understand you went to Acadia University in Nova Scotia at the tender age of 17. While there you were the quarterback and CO captain of the Acadia Axman football team. What are some of the valuable lessons that this experience taught you?

Jim Durrell 02:32

I'd have to say that, and it's a generalization about football. Unlike a lot of other sports and basketball, you can be an unbelievable player and carry your whole team and do something. In football. It's very much a team effort. If your offensive line is in playing well, you get massacred as a quarterback you can't pass your running backs are hit. So unlike other sports as well, you can't really talk to the referees, if you say so much as boo to them the wrong way, your entire team is penalized. So it was a wonderful lesson in teamwork, in understanding the value of teamwork. And at the same time recognizing that you couldn't -within the rules of the game - there's some leeway, but it's not just about you.

Dan Seguin 03:24

It's clear to say that you have a love for sports, and your commitment to bringing world class sporting events to Ottawa is unsurpassed. I mean, you served as president of the Ottawa Senators, you secure the 1988 Grey Cup game for Ottawa, you delivered a triple A baseball franchise to the city. On top of this, you have served as a governor for Canada Sports Hall of Fame and have been inducted as a builder in the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame. So I have to ask you this. How did these achievements prepare you for your role as a mayor, and for many board positions that you have held through the years, including serving as chair for hydro Ottawa?

Jim Durrell 04:14

I include sport in the entertainment world. So when I look at the four cornerstones of a great city, and I believe Ottawa is a great city, one is education. One is health care. One is your economy. And the fourth one is and - in no particular order- is sports and entertainment. And it's like a chair, and when you've got the four legs of the chair all sitting there then you've got the makings of a great chair. Okay. And the bottom line is that young people today, the world is far bigger than sitting in your office, working all day and I've done that for my entire life but the world- is people need to be entertained. There's a life of inside the office, there is a life that you can enjoy with friends and with family. And sport does that, and you know, as a young man growing up in Montreal, John Beliveau was my hero, the Canadians. And young people have to have these heroes. One of the issues that I always found was when you came to Ottawa, certainly before we brought the NHL here is that all our heroes were from other cities. Well, now, it's not the case. So you can have a CFL hero, you can have an NHL hero. And these things are very important to me, for young men and women that they have models to look up to and grow.

Dan Seguin 05:41

Okay, cool. Now, what were some of the key learnings as a mayor that you were able to transfer to your role at Hydro Ottawa? And what were some of the key differences?

Jim Durrell 05:56

You know, when you're mayor of the capital city of Canada, it's a job that no matter how many years you spend, training, it's a whole different world. And you recognize, I guess, I'll go back and just say, in our personal lives, we choose our friends, we choose what we want to do and when we want to do it. When you're mayor, you see the underbelly of a city, you see the great, you see the challenges, you see the toughness, and it all gets thrown on you on a daily basis. And, and I don't mean that negatively, I mean it from a learning perspective, because you walk out of that job, with a far bigger view and vision of, of how the world really, really works. And so when I came to Hydro, it was it's interesting, because we're very much a private company, but we're even more a public company, and the expectations of the public at large, and our shareholder, which is City Council. Now, I'm very fortunate, having spent all the years that I did at the city, I understand how Council works, and I understand what's important to the individual Councillors and, and the Mayor. And so that has been an asset for me to be able to move through those minefields and call them whatever you want. But the bigger picture is, I never forgot how important our customers were. And our customers were the citizens of Ottawa. And that's our regional debt. That's why we're here.

Dan Seguin 07:48

Jim, you have served on the Hydro Ottawa board since July 2012. What is the biggest change you've seen in Hydro Ottawa since?

Jim Durrell 08:01

That's a good question. And when I became chairman, Hydro, Ottawa was a very highly, highly regulated business. And by a regulated business, we just mailed out the bills, people paid the bills, and we provided energy to their homes. As time has gone on, and we see this all everywhere - fridges, stoves, air conditioners, everything is much, much more efficient. So when you look at the consumption level, per house, and per business, it's dropped substantially. Now, people would argue, and why are my hydro rates going up? Because it's a regulated business, and we're basically controlled by the province. It's really the reality of life. To succeed and grow, then we had to move into other fields. So in 2012 95% of our net income basically, came from the regulated business. Today, it's 67%. And that change, that movement away, has been largely through green energy. And then there are things that we can control in our future. We're the boss, and it allows us, and I look at Chaudiere, you know, the Falls and the energy. We're the largest municipally owned run-of-the-water in Ontario right now. That's the biggest change that we've really gravitated from a regulated business to an exciting, expanding, growing and financially successful business.

Dan Seguin 09:42

Okay, now, I know you love a challenge. So what project or moment during your tener as Board Chair for Hydro Ottawa, do you consider to have been the most challenging?

Jim Durrell 09:54

The biggest thing I would say is, it gets a little complicated, so I'll try and keep it at a high level. We pay every year a dividend to the city, they're our shareholder, they expect the dividend. We always borrowed money- I won't get into financial structures because it's a strange animal created by the province. But we were borrowing money to pay the city a dividend, which just drove us further and further in debt all the time. And our free cash flow, which is what you should pay dividends out was diminished, or non existent by changing to an unregulated business, which is what we're doing now. The unregulated business doesn't pay the dividend, we made that fundamental governance change. So we pay a dividend out of Hydro Ottawa Limited, but all our other Portege power in very all of our other businesses, we keep that cash and those profits. So basically, long term means that we won't be borrowing to pay dividends to the city, that it was the largest fundamental change that we made.

Dan Seguin 11:03

If you could take out your crystal ball and forecast the future. What do you see in Ottawa's energy future?

Jim Durrell 11:11

For all of the talk that goes on about climate change and efficiencies, very little, frankly, is ever done. I mean, solar has just barely scratched the surface here. Wind is, you know, even less so and only in certain areas. So we've got an enormous number of buildings, federal, and municipal, that are older buildings, very poorly constructed for today's modern energy desires. And there has to be a big infrastructure. You can talk all day long about cars and efficiencies there. The hidden energy that's used by all of these older infrastructures is staggering. And nobody talks about it. Like quite frankly, so they spend their time worrying about an electric vehicle. And those are largely highly visible. And it's not that they're not important. The fact of the matter is, there's an enormous other number of areas that have to be changed. And those changes cost money. I look at the amount of money they created first, Atlantis and for this plant and in St. Thomas, as well. And, you know, for Volkswagen. And those are all lovely things and but when I look at money that could really be reinvested properly, and, and have a profound impact in our city. It's fixing that infrastructure. It really is.

Dan Seguin 12:45

What, in your opinion, are some of the greatest challenges that we are facing as a community moving toward a net zero economy?

Jim Durrell 12:56

It's understanding what is net zero. It's now thrown around so casually, and, and everybody jumps right away and focuses on electric vehicles. Well, that's how we're going to do it. And they focus on, we're going to do more wind and solar. The counterbalance is a huge movement out there to cancel natural gas, which is, quite frankly, still highly energy efficient. And you have to, as you gravitate to net zero, it has to be financially affordable for people, it's fine for elites, and it's fine for people who've got lots of money to say we're all going to do this. There's a staggering number of people who live in this city that live hand to mouth, and they need energy, just like the elites need energy. And I use that word and I sounds in such a disparaging way, but they make most of the decisions. So as you move to net zero, you have to do it in an affordable, practical way. City Council passed a motion to cancel natural gas. Do you know what that would mean? Imagine trying to go to your house now. You have no natural gas and you're going to have electricity. Instead of paying a couple of 100 bucks a month, you're going to be paying 1000s What people can't afford that this is just you know, it's lovely, but it's quite frankly, nonsense. At some point in time. It's a nice thing to do. My granddaughter is your very typical 16 year old idealist. She is smart, engaged, a just adore and she's all on climate all the time, Grandpa, you're good in this net. And as I always said to her, Your grandpa totally agrees with you, dear. It's just that you have to move there in a responsible fashion and if you don't, you're going to hurt a tremendous number of people in the process. So the bottom line for me is most of these net zero goals are overly ambitious, there's no real plan to do them, you know whether it's federally provincially, everybody just is talking about it. And the goals are admirable, but it's got to be a goal that is achievable. I have for how many years now I watch the federal government say, you know, we're going to cut our carbon emissions, and every year they go up, what the hell's the use of all this planning, or whatever they call it? And nobody says anything about it.

Dan Seguin 15:29

You're gonna kill me, but I've got a follow up question here. Now, I'll flip that question. What, in your opinion, Jim, are the greatest opportunities that we have as a community in moving toward achieving net zero?

Jim Durrell 15:42

People understanding what Net Zero is. Really understanding and what they have to do themselves to try and get there. It's only a collective buying in, in my estimation, by the public at large. That's really ever going to move this. I'll go back to electric vehicles. There aren't enough charging stations around anywhere to handle it. Snd everybody is "Oh, yeah. And in five years, it'll be only electric vehicles." No, there won't. In 10 years, we'll know there won't. I'm not even sure in 15 years. Because the infrastructure isn't there to support it. So though, there's something that I think can really happen, and happen properly. We're trying to gravitate to all of our vehicles being electric, here at Hydro Ottawa, and we can't get the vehicles. Oh, that's such a lovely goal. But they're not building them. And so this is the reality and if people have to really understand, and it's not the Prime Minister going out with some dribble or gravel and saying these are all the things of the Minister of the Environment, I don't mean to be disrespectful. But the bottom line is, it's all window dressing, there's nothing really honestly substantive there that affects you and me on a daily basis. We pay more than a carbon tax, and I got a check the other day, I mean, what I got the check for, and I'd find it with some reimbursement. Well, that's all window dressing. There's more cars on the road today than there ever was. And all it does is hurt the little guy who can't afford this stuff, you know. So the opportunities are enormous. They're far reaching. But they can only be achieved when people understand it. In its simplest equation, it's I want to lose 30 pounds by next year. Okay, well, that's a wonderful thing. Well, how are you going to do it? Well, these are the things I'm going to do. Okay, so in next month, what will you have lost? Well, if I do all this, I should have lost four pounds and you move it through and there's your 30. I don't see any of that happening, frankly. So there's a real opportunities there. It's moving again, from window dressing to substantive action that's meaningful.

Dan Seguin 18:11

You've had a very storied and accomplished life, Jim. So which is singular achievement in this wonderful life so far, are you most proud of?

Jim Durrell 18:23

Well, without leaving your family out, because I think that's unnatural, I would have to say Receiving the Order of Canada, which is the highest honor a civilian or a citizen can get to be recognized by your country. And I still I have my snowflake on my jacket as we speak here today. That was something going to Rideau Hall and having the Governor General talk about your accomplishments. And it was something that has left a lasting impression. It keeps you enormously humble, and I hope it'll have a great impact on my grandchildren and how they know they can make this country a better place.

Dan Seguin 19:15

What is the one singular thing in your opinion that Ottawa residents most need to know about the work we do at Hydro Ottawa, that they may not already know?

Jim Durrell 19:30

Our reliability, and every every single month, we look at two things. The acronyms are sadie and safety, but it's the number of outages and the frequency of time. We are best in class and have been for a number of years compared to other comparable energy utilities. And we take hydro for granted. If you do just wake up and flick a light and you just go, and you start to open your fridge. And all of these things are just, we don't even give a second thought to them, except when they don't work all of a sudden. And then it's like, well, what the hell is going on here? Why is this off? And hydro is probably- not because I'm Chairman - that it won't be for long. It's the best value for money in all of the bills that we pay. It really is. I mean, when I think of the life style that it provides citizens on a day to day basis for what you pay. It's a great deal.

Dan Seguin 20:43

And finally, Sir, after your retirement as Board Chair in June, where are we next likely to see Jim Durrell? On the golf course at Augusta or celebrating with a Stanley Cup over your shoulders?

Jim Durrell 21:00

Boy, I'll tell you, I thought we were gonna win the cup. Had we had goaltending, we would have won it back in '08. But you know, I've always been active. It's keeps me young mentally. And so I have been very blessed. I have a great group of friends who are equally active. So we play tennis, we play golf. And I'll always care about the community, I mentor a number of young people, I'll continue to do that. I find that very personally fulfilling to pay it forward with young people. So it'll be a lot of that. You know, frankly, with the committees, and all of the boards I've chaired. I'm coming up to 77, the torch has been passed. My wife always says you're gonna go crazy. Oh, no, I won't cook because I've in my life built a tremendous group of friends and associates, most of whom have been very accomplished. And we have discussion groups, and we talk about things. So mentally, I stay challenged. Physically, I stay challenged. And I'm blessed to have a great family and I just love life.

Dan Seguin 22:20

Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

Jim Durrell 22:27

Sure.

Dan Seguin 22:28

Okay, sir. What are you reading right now?

Jim Durrell 22:31

I just finished the book. It was the prequel to Pillars of the Earth. So it was very good. I'm also a big John Grissom fan, I have to say. Largely because he does really fascinating stories, but there's always history lessons. He's like Leon Uris used to be, you know, when he was writing that you have a lots of factual history. And around it, they put in the adventure in the story.

Dan Seguin 23:00

The next one is always interesting. What would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?

Jim Durrell 23:08

I have one and I call it "The First Lady."

Dan Seguin 23:10

Who is someone that you truly admire?

Jim Durrell 23:14

I admire so many people. I'm trying to move away out of out of family and oh, it's a rapid fire question. So I know so many accomplished people and I admire. I don't know if there's any one person in particular that I would pick out of, you know, other than within family, honestly.

Dan Seguin 23:32

Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Jim Durrell 23:38

The birth of a child.

Dan Seguin 23:40

What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Jim Durrell 23:46

It was staying socially active. I'm a very social animal. And so I refused to have the pandemic control my life. I got all my shots when I should get them. I follow the rules, but I stayed fairly socially active.

Dan Seguin 24:06

Now. We've all been guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?

Jim Durrell 24:16

Yeah, I really enjoyed the Bridgerton I enjoyed Succession. I'm into Yellowstone now. But frankly, I I hardly, it's not a sporting event that I'm interested. I watch very little TV. I just find TV today is not very good. And I'm busy. I'll watch a movie every now and again but doesn't control my life.

Dan Seguin 24:42

Lastly, Jim, what's exciting you about the energy sector right now?

Jim Durrell 24:48

Not a lot. I hate to say this, because I'm a glass half full guy. When I look at the competency of our Senior Management. I'm going to take that question internally. When I see the men and women that are running Hydro Ottawa today, that makes me excited. It gives me confidence. And it's not BS. Our executive team is a highly competent, a group of men and women who really give a damn. And I think do an extremely good job.

Dan Seguin 25:27

Well, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Jim Durrell 25:39

A pleasure, I enjoyed it.

Dan Seguin 25:41

Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests are previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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The electrification of vehicles has been top of mind for not only personal use, but also commercial. What does transitioning traditionally fossil fuel-powered engines—like delivery trucks, buses, and taxis—over to electric power look like, and why are cities pushing for this change? In today’s episode, we speak with Jim Pegg, Director of

Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions to discuss the environmental and economic benefits of fleet electrification.

Related links:

• Jim Pegg, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-pegg-4b588b17/
• Envari, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/envari/
• Envari website: https://envari.com/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today we're moving into the fast lane and talking about converting vehicles that are used for commercial purposes, such as delivery trucks, buses, and taxis away from traditional fossil fuel powered engines to electric power. That's right. We're learning about fleet electrification. So start your electric engines, they're so quiet, and fasten your seat belt because we have a great guest to explore more about this topic. So why are cities greening their fleet. Not only does this shift help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but it also packs a punch in the fight against climate change. The transportation sector is one of the largest contributors of GHG emissions accounting for more than 20% of global emissions. The shift towards EVs, electric vehicles in commercial fleets can significantly reduce these emissions. In fact, the City of Ottawa finds to have an entirely zero emission bus fleet by 2036. While fleet electrification is still in its early stages, it has the potential to play a crucial role in helping Canada reach its 2050 netzero targets, especially as demand speeds up. So here's today's big question: In addition to producing fewer life cycle emissions than traditional vehicles, what are the economic benefits of fleet owners and operators? So buckle up friends today, we have Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Product and Services at Envari Energy Solutions, here to talk to us about the new Star Fleet. Jim, it's a pleasure to have you on our show again. Now, we've been hearing a lot about electrification of vehicles. It's no secret that the government has set some ambitious goals, like the mandate for all new passenger vehicles and light duty trucks to be zero emissions by 2035. But here's what I'm curious about. Jim, what's the scoop when it comes to fleet? I'm talking about city buses, school buses, delivery vehicles and the likes are organizations who manage fleets making that transition as well. And most importantly, why is this shift in the fleet industry so crucial?

Jim Pegg 03:08

Well, it's a great question. So let's say more and more municipalities and large fleet operators are making the transition to electric vehicles, or at least starting to seriously plan out the change. Municipalities are definitely early adopters transitioning to electric vehicles, starting with their late duty fleets. And of course, the big buses. Buses are a big contributor to GHG emissions. So it has a big impact on their pathway. And that zero plans, converting them to zero emission vehicles. You know, it's just a big part of that whole journey. School buses are an important fleet to talk about as well, we can all agree less diesel fumes for our kids, less fumes they breathe in each day that better. There's actually a few studies out there that talk about health benefits for kids switching to electric buses. So you know, light duty fleets, such as delivery fleets are also starting to make the switch. There's definitely more vehicle options available for light duty fleets right now, making it a great place to start and get comfortable with electric vehicles. And importantly, the charging infrastructure that goes with them. And see, you know, the big driver there right now is GHG reduction. So as a result, you know, government grants are out there to accelerate the transition. So it's a good time for any fleet operator to start looking at the change and planning out when it will make the most sense for them. Not only from an environmental point of view, but also from a cost perspective. The grants aren't going to be around forever. And I think that's a big part of the business cases. Right now. There are their savings as well going to electric vehicles. We all see the price of the pumps going up. And there's also operational savings that can be seen with electric vehicles. Bottom line, I'd say fleets produce a huge amount of GHG emissions, converting them to zero emission vehicles will have a tremendously positive impact with lower total cost of ownership. So it's a win-win at the end of the day, the trick is making sure that EVs will meet your fleet's needs. And that's, that's a big part of the questions out there right now.

Dan Seguin 05:07

Now, with all of the benefits described, it sounds like a no brainer to make the transition to an electric fleet. So what's the catch? What are some of the actual challenges that municipalities and businesses are grappling with when it comes to electrifying their fleet vehicles?

Jim Pegg 05:27

Well, with any big change, there's always challenges. In this case, there are a few but with good planning, they are manageable. I'd say, you know, basic conversations we have typically there's seven or so key things that you need to consider. If I were to go through those, I'll try to be brief. But you know, let's start with cost. So electric vehicles, in most cases, do cost more initially. That is why understanding the total cost of ownership is important. Comparing things like maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle, energy cost, gas or diesel versus electricity. Understanding your current costs, versus what they will look like, is important to help justify that increased initial investment. Next up, I'd say vehicle availability. Is there an EV that is comparable to the vehicles that the fleets are using now that will provide the same or better operational functionality? At the end of the day, fleet operators need a solution that allows them to continue successful operation of their fleet, which takes us to the next point, EV charging with EVs. You need to think about how your charging infrastructures are going to work, work physically, do you have the capacity? What charging strategy will you use understanding when you can charge disrupting your operational needs, the cost of EV infrastructure is an important consideration. You know, many fleet operators will need to increase their electricity capacity from their utility. But this needs to be carefully planned, capacity upgrades evolve assets that last 40, 50 and sometimes 60 years. The last thing you want to do is make an investment only to find out you didn't install enough capacity for future projects like building GHG reduction projects, or that you oversize your new service and wasted money at the start. The good news is there are, you know, well thought out ways to approach these problems, proven steps to take you know, those were things to consider and strategies to allow for a phased approach to converting movies. The truth is I could go on for a while on this specific topic. But let's just say, you know, I'd highly recommend any fleet operator out there to talk to someone that does this every day that has an eye for the full picture, not just the EV power needs. But experience will be helpful on this topic. You will learn about things like preconditioning or vehicles in winter and to increase your range and winter for example. So from there, I'd say let's talk about range anxiety. It's another other piece that people think about, and this is a big one. The last thing fleet operators want us to have is vehicles stranded with no power. This is another good reason that the planning stage is so important. Looking at your fleets usage, dwell times, best case and worst case scenarios like winter operation when range is reduced. Modeling your fleet's usage is an important part of the planning process. Bus fleets are a great example of routes, or overall distance traveled in a day that can be somewhat managed and evaluated at the same time. Working to consider changes in fleet needs also important fleets and their usage patterns change every year. And they will, you know for many years to come. Some very good news is there are more and more chargers being installed around the country. This won't replace the need for fleets to have their own chargers, but it will help with some of the fleets that have more unpredictable usage patterns. You know, at the end of the day, let's face it, you have to get to where the work is. So there's lots of things to think about there. Next up, I'd say there's energy cost and reliability, you know, so switching from gas or diesel to electricity means you'll become dependent on your local utility providing electricity in a reliable way. That's why it's so important to connect with your local utility or have a partner that can do that on your behalf. Other strategies such as, you know, on site battery storage, which is great to support cost management, but it may not be the solution for you know, critical fleet reliability, because you know, batteries have very short duration output to them. So onsite power generation may come into play. Again, many things to consider that all work together and understanding your new electricity bill is what's going to look like and ways to reduce those costs will become an ongoing operational need. Having a good energy advisor will support this need and could save fleet operators a significant amount of money. And let's not forget the various grants and funding streams available. Two more that I'd want to touch on would be - maintenance and tooling. EVs require less overall maintenance. But some different expertise might be required. So training staff in a timely manner on how to maintain your fleet, if you do the maintenance in house is an important transition piece, right. Most importantly, how maintenance can be done safely. Electricity can be seen, but proper steps need to be taken to ensure safety. With any new technology or anything related to electricity, safety has always got to be top of mind. And that's a big piece of operators need to make sure they're thinking about depending on the size of their fleet and, and what's going to have to go in the planning around safety to make sure people go home safely at the end of the day. The last thing I think I've talked about I'd say is driver training. Driving an EV, and knowing how to manage your power usage can have a big impact on the success of your fleet. So knowing how to take advantage of regenerative braking, understanding the impacts, they have features such as heating, cooling of your battery, your battery life itself, hard accelerations versus smooth accelerations, I say simply put some of the simple lessons and training can have a really big impact on your fleet success. There's a lot of thought that goes into planning of fleet conversion to electric. But I say that is why experts you know, and maybe a little self plug here - such as Envari, can be relied upon to take on that transition and make that transition as smooth as possible. No two fleets are the same, but combining a fleet operator's knowledge of what they do with an organization that knows and understands electricity is a great way to start to change.

Dan Seguin 11:39

Jim, given these considerations, are there certain types of vehicles that are more suitable for electrification than others? And if so, why?

Jim Pegg 11:50

Well, I would say they're fleets that have vehicles ready now, for electrification. And I'd say there, there are fleets that are still a bit off in the future. You know, at the same time, converting a full fleet day one isn't always a great idea. Dipping a toe in the water sometimes works best. And parallel to that planning and working with a partner who understands the options out there listens to the fleet operators needs. And I can't stress that enough, you have to really take the time to understand the needs of the fleet and all their unique characteristics and understand how they use their fleets. That's a very important piece that needs to be a very collaborative approach. But you know, fleet operators are experts in how they run their fleet. And having someone that knows the electrical side of things is going to help them through those planning studies and implementations can make a really great recipe. Apart from that battery improvements are being developed, new Evie vehicles are on the way. And it won't be long before there are options out there for every fleet - big and small. But I'd say I'd say the vehicle selection, and that analysis is certainly a step that needs to be taken.

Dan Seguin 12:57

What is the current state of charging infrastructure for fleet vehicles? Is the technology there?

Jim Pegg 13:04

So yeah, so it's a charging technology has come a long way. You know, I can remember as far back as maybe 12 years ago installing so many chargers and and they've certainly come a long way since then. You know, the good news, too, is that they're constantly improving. I would say that the charging technology available today is in a good place to support fleet electrification. Options like parallel charging, AC charging DC charging, sequential charging, actually, for large overhead pantograph charging, which is often used on on bus fleets, there's a new standard that was just released that includes sequential charging for pantograph style chargers. And that's that's a big step in the right direction. And even talking about RFID tags, so I mean, the standards and so on are constantly evolving. And there are lots of different industry partners in that ecosystem, trying to make sure things get standardized because that benefits everyone at the end of the day. Bottom line, there are lots of charging options out there. The trick really is understanding which one will work best for your needs, and how to ensure it's flexible so that you can incorporate different chargers down the road. Being a technology agnostic organization, such as ourself [Envari] has really helped us find the best solution for specific applications. And to be clear, often there's a need for a mix of charger sizes and in a strategy behind you know, DC versus AC charging. Often with fleets, you want to rely a lot more on DC charging rather than relying on the rectification on the vehicle. DC does not have to mean big fast chargers people often think of level three, you know 100 kilowatt, 50 kilowatt chargers with DC chargers, you can get you know 24 kilowatt DC chargers there that are reliable and made by very reputable OEMs, so...

Dan Seguin 14:55

Being an EV owner myself, I can confirm that our cold Canadian winters pose certain challenges when it comes to battery life. Is this something to be aware of? And how can organizations mitigate any issues?

Jim Pegg 15:11

So I would say yes, it is true that the cold weather has an impact on batteries, you know, depending on where you are on the globe, there are different weather patterns and so on. But cold weather certainly has an impact on batteries, and the range needed of those batteries. Currently, there are a few ways to tackle this. One is something called preconditioning, meaning having your vehicle plugged in while it's warming up in the morning, and you can actually automate that to take place at a certain time. And it can help maintain the battery's range for that day. So that that can have a really big impact. The other factor, you know, is what we talked about a little bit earlier was a driver training. Simple things like understanding the impact of few degrees of heat can have or how people actually drive smooth versus hard accelerations.All those things have an impact on the range you get out of your battery. The good news is with upfront planning, these issues can be managed to a point where they're not issues at all, and if if more public chargers come along each year, the certainty around getting from point A to B, to C to D to E to F, and G o get stronger and stronger. There's also a lot of work going into battery technology itself that will help with cold climates as well as the speed at which batteries can be recharged without causing increased battery degradation. The risk right now is if you know fleets of vehicles are out there and they're constantly having to use fast chargers and higher power chargers on their vehicles on the smaller size fleets that can have a damaging impact on your battery life. But there's a lot of technology going into working on that. But again, with good planning and understanding of a fleets needs, there are certainly ways to plan around those issues.

Dan Seguin 16:56

We're all aware that electricity rates can vary based on the number of different factors such as time of day, the season, the customer class, etc. How can fleet operators effectively manage these fluctuations to optimize charging and minimize costs?

Jim Pegg 17:15

So you know, electricity rates are going to be a changing landscape over the coming years as, as I'd say, governments and regulators look for ways to encourage electrification, while at the same time managing infrastructure costs related to distributing power. So, you know, that said, we're also in a time of machine learning and in AI, meaning software is going to play a big part in optimizing charging schedules. There are some great organizations out there that specialize in this exact type of software, you know, pair that with the knowledge of the electricity rate structure in your area, and you can find some very effective ways to manage your electricity costs. The risk is also there, you know, if you do not plan for electricity costs and manage them on an ongoing basis, your cost could quickly increase versus an optimized scenario. You know, for example, in Ontario, there's something called global adjustment. And knowing how to manage your global adjustment costs will have a big impact on your electricity bill. Now, there's a balance. First, and most importantly, a fleet needs to operate as a fleet. So you know, a good partner will work with you to optimize your costs based on your fleet needs, and then work to educate and support fleet operators on what changes they could make to their fleet operations. That would result in some cost savings or significant cost savings. But with the changing landscape, it's something that has to be an ongoing effort for sure.

Dan Seguin 18:45

Okay, Jim, how do government policies and regulations impact the electrification of fleets?

Jim Pegg 18:53

Yeah, well, I guess I'd say there's a few ways one of the big ones is government noting that all vehicles sold as of a certain date and time will need to be zero emission vehicles, which means fleets will have to look at vehicles other than the gas and diesel options that they use now when as their fleets come to end of life. So as they're looking to replace their fleets, they're gonna have to think about what vehicles are actually going to be sold and available as they get to those different points in time. You know, the cost of electricity and distribution rates and rate design will have an impact on the total cost of ownership as we just talked about for EV fleets. You know, in other areas such as manufacturing, you know, different Import/Export policies, trade agreements with other countries, mining policies, all those different things can impact the production of EV vehicles. And, you know, right to its core, the availability of vehicles, which is obviously a big need.

Dan Seguin 19:50

Okay, sir, how about funding? Are there any incentive programs out there and how can they help those who might be considering like implication

Jim Pegg 20:01

There is funding out there right now for things such as charging infrastructure, and in some cases to support the cost delta between traditional vehicles and EVs. A couple of examples, I'd say we have the Zero Emission Transit Fund, which supports municipal bus fleet electrification, as well as school bus electrification. There's actually two parts to that one in particular, I believe it's up to 80% of the planning costs covered. And for your actual capital investments, I believe it's up to 50%, with some fairly high caps there. So there's quite a bit of funding available there. Another example would be the Canadian Infrastructure Bank is offering low interest loans to help with that initial upfront investment that's required. And we're seeing other various grant programs. There is NRCan, there's ZEVIP program which has had various phases to it as well to help support electric charging. So I mean, there's different programs coming out. And that is also a bit of an ongoing thing that we have to watch constantly and, and be ready for. And it can be a bit of a process to go through some of the applications. But once you understand the process, it becomes much simpler. And I mean, having someone to work with to do that with you, you can have a lot of success there. Each program has its own rules and requirements to apply. But I can say from firsthand experience, the funding is there. It is accessible, we've had great success, getting many of our customers some, some really great funding.

Dan Seguin 21:36

Okay, now, time to take out your crystal ball, Jim. What's the future of fleet electrification, and how do you see it evolving in the coming years?

Jim Pegg 21:49

Yeah, I mean, this is one that the engineering team and everyone loves to chat about while having the morning coffee. I think we'll see more and more advancement in battery technology. And I touched on that a bit earlier, and the charging technology along with that, and more creative ways to leverage the stored energy of multiple vehicles connected at multiple locations. I really think there's going to be some sort of an overlay where we're really able to leverage all of these different, essentially battery packs, all over the place. And then on top of that, I think as we touched on earlier, more and more vehicle options and innovation and vehicles. And in some cases, people may have to think about reframing how they use their vehicles. And hopefully, it's always for the positive, right? At the end of the day, fleet operators need to be able to run their businesses, and then continue moving forward in a profitable way. So the technology needs to be there to support that, ultimately, to help with that transition.

Dan Seguin 22:51

Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Jim, are you ready?

Jim Pegg 23:00

Let's go for it.

Dan Seguin 23:01

Okay. What are you reading right now?

Jim Pegg 23:04

Spare by Prince Harry.

Dan Seguin 23:06

Jim, what would you name your boat? If you had one?

Jim Pegg 23:11

The Tin Can.

Dan Seguin 23:13

Now, who is someone that you admire?

Jim Pegg 23:17

To give a shout out here to my wife. She's an incredible spouse. She's a mother. She's a business owner, and she does it all! She does it very well.

Dan Seguin 23:26

That's cool. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Jim Pegg 23:34

Oh, I think there's real magic that happens out there every day. But I'm going to fall right into the birth of my son, I think will always be at the top of my list. Seeing that happen. That's magic.

Dan Seguin 23:48

What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Jim Pegg 23:54

So on a personal level, I think it's probably something a lot of people can relate to that have young kids, I think it was a tough couple of years and keeping my son on track with, you know, sort of the progression of education, missing a couple of really crucial years in there was it was difficult, but happy to say we've got some awesome teachers in the school system here and he's just getting back on track. And I think that though it was a big challenge.

Dan Seguin 24:26

Okay, now, we've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?

Jim Pegg 24:35

Oh, anything Star Wars, anything Star Wars at all! I watch the whole series, you know, the Mandalorian? All of it. I love it all!

Dan Seguin 24:45

Lastly, Jim, what's exciting you about your industry right now?

Jim Pegg 24:50

Yeah, this is where I would geek out a little bit and say "what's not exciting?" Right now, you know, we're going through some major transitions. I'd say with the technology that we have, and on all the changes happening, there's collaboration like never before, really. Seeing new technology coming out constantly. It's an exciting time, I'd say to be an engineer, and to work with a team of engineers. And I have to say, I have the pleasure of working with the greatest group of engineers there is. Everyone from building mechanical lighting, electrical engineers, all the drive and passion for their work like no other group I've seen. I think it's just an exciting time.

Dan Seguin 25:28

Jim, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or the organization, how can they connect?

Jim Pegg 25:42

Yeah, well, thank you for having me, I'd say check out our website: envari.com. And just reach out through there and we're happy to reach out and have conversations. Always happy to discuss this topic and many more.

Dan Seguin 25:57

Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Jim Pegg 26:03

Absolutely. Always a pleasure.

Dan Seguin 26:05

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkingenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Canada’s electric vehicle industry sparks interest, as the government aims at selling only zero-emission vehicles by 2035. It’s a chance to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and improve air quality, while also developing a sustainable electricity and transportation system. Canada has invested in EV manufacturing, infrastructure and batteries. But is it enough? Emma Jarratt, award-winning investigative journalist and the Executive Editor at Electric Autonomy Canada, weighs in on episode 112 of thinkenergy.

Related links

• Emma Jarratt, Website: https://emmajarratt.wordpress.com/
• Emma Jarratt, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-jarratt-ba552727/
• Emma Jarratt, Twitter: https://twitter.com/Em_CRJ
• Electric Autonomy Canada: https://electricautonomy.ca/
• Project Arrow: https://projectarrow.ca/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Canada is on the brink of a transportation revolution, as it transitions to electric. With the goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and improving air quality, the Canadian government has set a target of selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035. This transition presents a number of challenges and opportunities. But there's one thing for certain it's an exciting time for Canada's electric vehicle industry. The demand for electric vehicles is growing exponentially in Canada, as more people are embracing the technology to reduce their carbon footprint and improve air quality. This has created a unique opportunity for automakers and entrepreneurs to bring new and innovative electric vehicle models and technology to market. Strides were made in 2022, which saw Canada's public charging installations grow by a whopping 30%. The government has committed to investing in public charging infrastructure, and private companies are also stepping up to meet the demand. The shift to electric mobility will no doubt transform Canada's energy sector, which will require a significant increase in electricity demand, and bring with it more renewable energy and innovation. Electric vehicles present an opportunity for Canada to develop a more resilient and sustainable electricity and transportation system, not to mention the untold economic benefits. So here's today's big question: There's been a lot of announcements in the past year about investments Canada is making in EV manufacturing, infrastructure, and critical minerals needed for batteries. Is it enough to make Canada a superpower in this space and meet its 2035 target? Joining us today is Emma Jarrett, an award winning investigative journalist with a focus on green energy, the electric transportation sector and politics. She worked for some of Canada's largest news outlets, including CTV, the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail. Currently, she's the executive director of Electric Autonomy Canada, Emma, so great to have you join us today. Emma, how did you first become interested in electric vehicles and clean energy? And what led you to your current role as the executive editor of electric autonomy Canada?

Emma Jarrett 03:07

So, fun fact, I know very little about cars. If you ask me what the torque or the HP or like the drag on something is, I will give you a blank stare because I just don't know. It's never been a huge interest for me. But what I do care about and what my professional and personal background is is health, environment, resources, politics, the economy.You know, I have a little bit of power generation knowledge. So all to say that EV adoption touches all of that; it actually has very little to do with cars. So I fell into this job. Actually, I was freelancing, and I was approached to freelance for electric autonomy when it first started up, and it was a really nice partnership, and it became a full time gig.

Dan Seguin 04:01

Cool. Can you give us a bit of background on Electric Autonomy, Canada?

Emma Jarrett 04:07

Sure. So the company was founded in 2019, we actually just turned four. Our founder, Nino Dakara, started the news platform because he saw that Canada was just falling behind on EV adoption compared to other countries. You know, at that point, Norway would have been, you know, mid hockey stick up to very, very high levels of adoption, and Canada just wasn't doing much. And so he identified this issue and pinpointed that one of the big bottlenecks to adoption is lack of education. There was just this dearth of information for Canada and Canadian businesses making these decisions. So that was where Electric Autonomy came. And we exist to fill that knowledge gap.

Dan Seguin 04:49

Now, what do you see as the biggest challenges facing the electric vehicle industry in Canada today? And how do you see these challenges being addressed in the coming years?

Emma Jarrett 05:02

So the EV industry always exists I think with this, like an existential crisis happening, we're building, well I'm not part of it, but the industry is building itself from the ground up almost. And making a combustion vehicle is very different from making an electric vehicle. So yes, there is an existing auto sector in Canada with lots of tier one parts and manufacturers. But essentially, you're rebuilding something in the best case scenario, and most of the time, you're just building from the ground up, particularly when it comes to batteries and building that supply chain. So, that's just an ongoing challenge, you know, imagine building a house and then multiply that by like 2 billion. And that's what, you know, the scale of what this is. So the daily acute challenge, though, I think, at this moment is supply of vehicles, they're just not enough to match the demand and the interest from the public. And that's proving incredibly frustrating for everybody from manufacturers who, you know, know that they're not providing to scale what people are looking for, and to customers on the flip side who've been waiting very long times, in some cases to get their vehicles to address them. I mean, these are growing pains, my hope is that they will work out as things become more established as more pieces of the supply chain fall into place and come up and running. But no, I mean, there are going to be some really big troubleshooting events that have to happen before everyone feels like okay, we're, we're ticking along here.

Dan Seguin 06:31

How has the COVID 19 pandemic impacted the electric vehicle market in Canada? And what changes do you anticipate in the near future?

Emma Jarrett 06:40

I hate to say supply chains because everyone has been blaming supply chains. But it was a huge blow to the auto industry in general. I mean, the early days of the pandemic, like factories were shut down for weeks and months, no one was producing anything, whether it ran on a battery, or a combustion engine. That was a massive problem for the industry. So you know, that just had to be weather really, COVID. And obviously, the government's had to step in with subsidies to keep the industries as they were, you know, variously impacted afloat, man. And there was a psychological side too, for people when you think the world is ending, and that you don't know what's going to happen next. And you're so worried about everybody getting sick, and you can't go anywhere and see anybody! Do you care about buying a car? Probably not. So, you know, we know from the numbers that, you know, purchases of vehicles went down a lot during COVID, which I think is a pretty understandable and natural reaction to the bigger world events that we're playing out. Now, the retail industrial complex is rebounding. And perhaps what we will see in the near future is people taking stock of their ability to have an impact on their health and the health of their neighbors and those around them. I don't think any of us want to live or another COVID. Not to say that vehicles are in any way responsible or impactful on COVID. But it does speak to you know, we want to live in a healthy, sustainable clean planet, and EVs are this a bad pun. But they're a vehicle to do that. They're one piece of the puzzle to help achieve a way of living that is just better for everybody.

Dan Seguin 08:20

There's been a lot of news and announcements made recently. Can you talk about what stands out for you as the most notable electric vehicle projects or initiatives currently underway in Canada that you're excited about? And maybe, why?

Emma Jarrett 08:36

Sure. So I think everyone stops and takes an extra pause when you hear there's a factory worth billions and billions of dollars going in. And that's, you know, maybe the third or fourth announcement of that type you've heard in a few months, it's really quite remarkable. The industry that's been attracted by the new investments that are coming into Canada, it's almost unprecedented. So to see that play out, in real time to get to cover it, you know, it's a privilege. It's very interesting. For me, I learned a lot every single day. And I think that, you know, the bird's eye view of the situation is that this is a real moment in our history. We're building a supply chain in this country that we've never had before. And it's going to be very interesting when we're looking back on it to see what kind of a fork in the road it represents for Canada that we seize this opportunity. What I'm most excited about with the announcements is the supply chain as a whole and decarbonizing that. So it's great that we have factories that make batteries, but it would be better if they were all powered by non emitting electricity. And it would be fantastic if the trucks that brought the refined minerals to those factories to go into the batteries were zero emission trucks and the mining vehicles that pulled the minerals brought out of the ground were all electric That, to me is the big piece of this, you know, the whole supply chain needs to be decarbonized.

Dan Seguin 10:06

Okay, Emma, the 2023 Federal Budget announced billions of tax credits and financing to attract investments in manufacturing, energy and tech sectors. Can you unpack some of the highlights that stood out for you in the budget as it relates to electric mobility or maybe clean energy?

Emma Jarrett 10:26

Sure. So the big question with this year's budget was, how is it going to respond to the United States inflation Reduction Act, which was, you know, a $369 billion omnibus bill. And you know, is it is going to squash Canada flat, we just don't have that kind of economic power at that scale. So when the budget came out this year, I think everyone was very surprised and tentatively impressed if it rolls out the way some of the politicians are saying it will. That for the EV industry and clean tech, you know, we can go toe to toe with the US using $55 billion, which is, you know, less than a quarter of what the US is spending. So that was just interesting. And I don't know enough about economic gymnastics to be able to say one way or the other if this is going to be a success, but it's an interesting strategy. And I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Aside from the IRA maneuvers, I was really pleased to see a new tax credit come up for decarbonisation of Canada's grids. $25.7 billion in tax credits to move towards sustainable, renewable, in most cases, sources of energy. And as an extension of that also smart peak management, you know, with battery storage, and better load prediction and understanding, I think that's really important.

Dan Seguin 11:59

Now, your coverage and knowledge of the electric mobility industry is extensive. What are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 targets?

Emma Jarrett 12:13

We have a very long way to go. I don't think we can pretend otherwise, the steps that are being taken are encouraging. But this is a really, really big ship to turn. I think the targets are possible to meet, I don't think they were unreasonable or pie in the sky. I really do think that it is achievable whether or not it happens. Who can say, I hope so. And I think that whenever I hear somebody saying, you know, being pushed too fast or they're naysaying the targets, I go, okay, fair, but can you tell me then what you think the alternative is to not meeting them? We're looking at a pretty stark future environmentally if action is not taken. And I am always of the opinion that some action is better than sitting there and doing nothing.

Dan Seguin 13:03

Okay. How do you think Canada's clean energy and climate policies are impacting the development and adoption of electric vehicles? And what changes would you like to see in the policy landscape?

Emma Jarrett 13:17

I think the government is sending a very clear signal, whether they're saying it outright, or they're using funding and grants and incentives that they want to de-risk EV adoption and venture into the EV landscape, whether that comes in the form of manufacturing or charging. So I think that that's quite a powerful signal to the private commercial world, everyone is still nervous about how this will go. It's not small amounts of money that companies are talking about here, if it goes sideways, it could sink them. So I think that helps to have that sense of, you know, the government saying, we're not going to abandon you, we're going to try to help where we can, but that's sort of like ledger books and dollars and cents, people are much trickier. Openness to buying an Eevee is very subjective. And you know, times that by 38 million. like every Canadian will have their own reason for buying or not buying an EV. Investments in rebates and better EV education and charging infrastructure and just making it more visible and, and more widely available is really helpful. And that is what is being done, but there's still people who want to switch. So how do you reach them? I think that there are probably much smarter people than me, you know, consumer insights and into you know, strategies there. But, you know, we may be in a position in the future where we've seen a lot of carrots being given as of late very few sticks. And there might be policies that make it really unappealing and de incentivize people to own a combustion vehicle,it might come down to that, I don't know.

Dan Seguin 14:59

Okay, Emma, follow up question here. What are other countries doing right that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?

Emma Jarrett 15:09

Where we see the highest number of EVs being bought and adoption rates that are, you know, nearly at 100%: your Norway's, your Iceland's and Sweden's of the world. Those countries that they have in common, they're smaller than Canada, like 100%, they're way smaller. It is a different and perhaps easier task to switch a more compact size country over to EVs sooner. However, they also just have a different societal perspective than we have, like a different social conscience. Citizens of those countries tend to embrace moving in sync together for the greater good, rather than, you know, the haves doing really, really well. And the have-nots being left behind, which is what we tend and see more towards here. I think it's an age-old question. Every politician, every grassroots activist has wondered and asked themselves, you know, the question of how do we get everyone to buy into this thing that we want them to do? There is no easy answer. But I think that we've seen in history, countries that band together to do something because they just believe it's the right thing. And it will net benefit as most people tend to do better. And at the end of the day, if we don't do anything, or we don't do enough, everyone in Canada will suffer because of climate change. We already know that there are pockets of the country that are acutely suffering more than others right now. But at the end of the day, it will be a universal problem for everybody.

Dan Seguin 16:35

Now, what do you believe are the most important factors driving the transition to electric mobility in Canada?

Emma Jarrett 16:44

We always come back to a few pillars, which is, you know, education is right up there just understanding demystifying this technology. I mean, these are not like spaced hovercraft, that you need a special license to learn how to drive, they're just a car. So education is really key. Just getting people familiar with the technology, access to the vehicles to test drive is really important. Because this is technology on wheels, it's cars now or computers on wheels. So think of one of the most successful tech brands in the world, Apple, what does Apple do really well? They have stores everywhere, and you get to go in and there are tables and tables of all of their stuff. And you can hold it and feel it and play with it. And that's what needs to happen with vehicles, particularly EVs. They're new, and people are interested, but they need to test it out first, and we've seen rebates and then purchase incentives be effective as well. These vehicles are more expensive right now everyone hopes and is anticipating those costs will come down. But until they do that will make it more likely that you'll get more people into them. If you can help with the costs. Maybe not everybody needs a rate rebate, but certainly some people do.

Dan Seguin 17:54

What role do you see Canadian businesses and entrepreneurs playing in the development of electric vehicle technologies and infrastructure? And what opportunities do you see for Canadian companies in this space?

Emma Jarrett 18:11

Since I started reporting for electric autonomy, I've had the most wonderful education and what it is that's actually made in Canada. And coming into this four years ago, I had no idea that we have the auto sector that we do outside of, you know, Windsor, basically. We make cars in Windsor, but the parts and the tier one suppliers, and the tiny little bits of the vehicle that nobody ever cares about, or knows about unless they break, so many of them are made here. And then we have the IP side, which has just flourished in the last few years with excellent talent coming, you know, out of the universities or into Canada from around the world. And the ecosystem is incredibly robust. We have an example of what entirely made in Canada talent can do with the project arrow. I don't know if you're familiar with that. But the APMA the Auto Parts and Manufacturers Association spent, I think it was three years - Yeah, three years, building from the ground up, a concept vehicle that is entirely made in Canada IP. Every part, every piece of technology, every self driving - driver assist feature on it came from Canadian talent. They had hundreds and hundreds of bids from across the country for companies to participate in the car and it's an incredible body of work. And it's such a good example of what is possible coming out of Canada.

Dan Seguin 19:46

Very cool. Okay. Now, what advice do you have for individuals who are interested in transitioning to electric vehicles but are still hesitant or unsure about the technology?

Emma Jarrett 20:00

Well, I would say that there are a couple of things you can do. First is, do you know anybody with an EV? Well enough to ask them, Hey, can you take me for a drive in it or even better? Let me go around the block a few times. If you don't have anybody in your life who owns an EV then there are every society chapters all across the country, you should look one up in your community or close by our community. And they are incredibly generous. It's just a collection of people who are really passionate about EV education and one of their favorite things to do is to get people into EVs. So it's not an over asked to see if you can have a drive ins in someone's car, educate yourself on how the EV works to demystify, you know, the power train, understand the the battery that is in the vehicle is really just an extra extra large version of what's already in your phone or your computer. It's just done on a bigger scale. So I think, oh, and as well charging, definitely educate yourself on the charging of your vehicle, because that's, you know, routinely something that is a stumbling block for potential buyers is "How am I going to charge this thing." If you're, if you don't live in a detached home where you have, you know, room on your panel to put in a Level 2 charger, you're gonna have to do a bit of homework to understand how you'll navigate that, and there are lots of options and lots of resources available.

Dan Seguin 21:29

Okay Emma, how do we make electric mobility and electrification equitable, and accessible for everyone to participate in? What's needed for all Canadians to buy in?

Emma Jarrett 21:42

Well, I don't know what's in it for all Canadians to buy in, in terms of what will sway someone to buy an EV or not, what is a convincing argument for me might not be for my neighbor. But to make it equitable, I hope that charging providers are really sensitive to and mindful of where they're rolling out charging, and not just concentrating it in specific pockets where adoption is really high. But instead making sure that there's an even spread so that everyone feels like they have access to the infrastructure, they need to power their vehicles, cost of the vehicles in and of themselves is always a recurring concern. I don't know what else there is to do at this point, with certainly a federal rebate in place available to all Canadians and most provinces and territories offering some form of a rebate to add on top of the federal one, rather than waiting for the cost to come down. And from conversations with manufacturers, that's something that everyone is quite mindful of. Carmakers want to sell cars, and the better the price, the more cars they'll sell. So it's not something they're oblivious to. It's just waiting for the supply chain to solidify so that it's not as costly to make the battery which remains the most expensive part of the vehicle. We do.

Dan Seguin 22:57

Okay, another follow up question for you. I'm looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach. Are you hopeful?

Emma Jarrett 23:05

I'm an impatient person by nature. So I would, I would always like to see it go faster. But I am hopeful that we are taking the right steps as a country. And I just hope that there are more to come that this isn't, you know, okay, we've done what we can and let the chips fall where they may, I hope that we continue to see just a rolling evolution as the temperature keeps being taken of what people need to make them comfortable switching over to a zero emission vehicle. So I am cautiously optimistic, I would say.

Dan Seguin 23:42

Okay, a personal question, Emma, if you don't mind. As an award winning journalist, given all of the stories, you've covered people you've met, and where you've been, what has been your most memorable and why?

Emma Jarrett 23:59

So in 20, what year would have been 2014, the war in Syria was really picking up steam. And I was already in Norway for a reporting stint. I was there for a few months. And at the end of it, I hopped on a flight and went to Turkey, traveled to the Turkish border of Syria, and stayed there for a week covering aspects of the conflict that I could from there. And I spoke with, you know, tons of, mostly children of varying ages, who had been evacuated from Syria to receive medical treatment in this small town called Rohanley. And that was a very formative experience for me. That was the closest I've ever been to a war, certainly very, very distressing to see people and kids lying in beds who are not much younger than me. I was, I was in my early 20s At the time, and also very inspiring to see that, you know, the doctors and the, you know, people who people who had never been in medicine before coming up with these incredible ideas to help these people who have been wounded, I ended up at a prosthetics clinic, a group of I mean, they were teenagers, they they had liked robotics when they were in school. And some of them might have had like one or two years of engineering behind them at university before the conflict broke out. And they started making prosthetics at this clinic for everybody who had lost limbs. And it was really incredible to see on many different levels, and it's always stayed with me.

Dan Seguin 25:46

Thank you for sharing this. Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I hope you're ready.

Emma Jarrett 25:56

Ready!

Dan Seguin 25:57

What are you reading right now Emma?

Emma Jarrett 25:59

I'm just about to start a new book by Tamara Cherry who is a journalist on trauma informed reporting. So it's telling the story in a way that's not re victimizing the people you're interviewing. Very excited about, I've heard great things.

Dan Seguin 26:15

Okay, um, what would you name your boa if you had one?

Emma Jarrett 26:19

I do not have a boat. I tend to get quite seasick. So I think I would have to go with like, the Hurley Girly or Hold the Waves, like something a bit tongue and cheek, but definitely I would much prefer that the boat either be on dry land, or very firmly tied to the dock.

Dan Seguin 26:37

Who is someone you admire?

Emma Jarrett 26:41

I don't have any public figures that jumped to mind. But I'm going to be very trite and say that I have so many wonderful people in my life that just bring me so much joy and challenge me and who have done amazing things in their own lives. And I just admire my friends, my family, my colleagues, that I'm just incredibly lucky that way.

Dan Seguin 27:04

Nice. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Emma Jarrett 27:10

Probably my pregnancies.

Dan Seguin 27:12

What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Emma Jarrett 27:18

I was very lucky during the pandemic. I don't think a lot of people can say that they rode it out as well as I did in terms of, you know, getting to keep going with my everyday life. I've worked from home anyway, so it didn't hit me in the same way that it hit other people. But I think it was hard just being out and about and seeing the joylessness and the fear on everybody's faces all the time. You know, everyone is in masks, of course, and everyone's eyes had that same look of just really, really distressed - that was hard.

Dan Seguin 27:52

Okay, We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?

Emma Jarrett 28:00

I will usually always have Downton Abbey on in the background. I'm just a sucker for slow moving British TV with lots of horseback riding.

Dan Seguin 28:09

Now, lastly, what is exciting you Emma about your industry right now?

Emma Jarrett 28:16

It's exciting to watch history unfold in real time. I have this sense that, you know, in 20 years, we're all going to look back on this and think wow, that was a really cool thing to live through. And I'm fortunate because my job allows me basically to keep a diary - terrible diaries to my personal life but through reporting you know, I have story after story of my own and my colleagues just chronicling this massive societal transition, and I think it's going to be the neatest Time Capsule down the road.

Dan Seguin 28:49

Well, Emma this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect?

Emma Jarrett 29:03

I am on most social medias that happened before 2020. I do not understand Tik Tok. So please don't look for me there. But Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Electric Autonomy website. I'm easy to reach on all those platforms.

Dan Seguin 29:22

Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Emma Jarrett 29:28

It did. Thank you.

Dan Seguin 29:30

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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We’re on the road to net zero by 2050, driven by multiple levels of government. But what about sustainable development of our natural resources, including clean energy? Is it possible to meet net-zero goals and secure a prosperous future? Natural Resources Canada thinks so, with initiatives to help provinces and territories reduce greenhouse gas emissions and support their economic priorities. Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada, joins thinkenergy episode 111 to share how.

Related links

• Debbie Scharf, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbiescharf/
• Natural Resources Canada: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/
• Regional Energy and Resource Tables: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/climate-change/regional-energy-and-resource-tables/24356
• Sustainable Jobs Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jobs/training/initiatives/sustainable-jobs/plan.html
• 2030 Emissions Reduction Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/environment/weather/climatechange/climate-plan/climate-plan-overview/emissions-reduction-2030.html

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Transcipt:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is the think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In Canada, the energy sector is going through a major transition. As a nation, Canada has set ambitious targets to reach net zero emissions by 2050, and has made a commitment to prioritize the environment and climate action. Multiple levels of government and government agencies play an integral role in Canada's Net Zero initiative. So who is developing policies and programs to promote the sustainable development of Canada's natural resources, including clean energy? Natural Resources Canada is at the forefront of Canada's movement, working on initiatives that empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities while reducing greenhouse gas emissions through regional priorities and projects that align with Canada's netzero goals. Recently, the Royal Bank of Canada stated that the electricity sector is netzero already, but notes that it will require doubling, maybe even tripling the electricity output that currently exists today. This requires not only addressing the technical and economic challenges of transitioning to clean energy, but also creating social and cultural change. So here is today's big question. Can Canada successfully achieve its netzero goals, while creating a sustainable and prosperous future for all Canadians? Joining me today is Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada. In her role, Debbie is responsible for spearheading one of the Government of Canada's signature Energy Initiative, the transformation of regional energy systems through the regional energy and resources tables. She also oversees the sector's electricity resources branch, and the Energy Policy and International branch, both of which are integral to the Government of Canada central energy initiatives to realize a netzero future. Debbie, so great to have you join us today. Perhaps you can start by telling our listeners about Natural Resources Canada, better known as NRCan, and its objectives.

Debbie Scharf 02:54

Yeah. So Dan, thanks so much for inviting me here today, it's really great to talk a little bit about some of these issues with yourself and for your listeners. So NRCan is one of many federal departments. But our role specifically, is to work to improve the life of Canadians by ensuring our natural resources are developed sustainably, hence the name of our department. And we do this in ways for example, supporting climate change mitigation and advancing the net to zero transition using our natural resources to provide a source of jobs prosperity and opportunity for Canadians, of course, preserving our environment and those natural resources and respecting and engaging with indigenous peoples towards economic reconciliation. And so that really sums up very much the heart of what NRCan is about.

Dan Seguin 03:38

How is Natural Resources Canada integral to Canada's initiative to achieve a netzero future?

Debbie Scharf 03:46

Yeah, well, I'd say NRCan is pretty integral because 80% plus of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions comes from producing and using energy, and NRCan Canada's the department responsible for energy, at least federally. And so we play a very, very important role in the journey to get to net zero. And we try to use all of the tools that we have available as a department, which includes things like policies and regulations, funding programs, science partnerships, to help shape and accelerate that transition. And you know what, we're not just focused on emissions, we often talk about emissions when we talk about the net zero transition. But we also think a lot at NRCan, about how to create new economic opportunities that will create jobs for Canadians, good paying sustainable jobs, and to position Canadian businesses to be the supplier of choice for energy globally, and provide those energy services and security to the rest of the world. I just will say one thing and I said the point federally is because energy is a shared jurisdiction in this country, and that is pretty important. So as a department, part of an integral role of what we do is working collaboratively with our provincial and territorial counterparts and indigenous partners to do the work that we do and of course with a variety of stakeholders across the country.

Dan Seguin 04:58

Debbie now With respect to the environment and climate action, what is Canada already doing right?

Debbie Scharf 05:07

Well, I would say the one thing that is worth noting as a starting point is that over the past few decades, we've seen a decoupling of economic growth and GHG emissions. And I think that really speaks to the fact that there are things that are going right when it comes to energy and climate. There have been a number of technology improvements that we've seen regulations that have been implemented. And of course, although not under the purview of NRCan, a pollution carbon charge or tax that has been applied across the country, all of which have helped to tackle emissions and to help get them on a different trajectory. And so I do think that we're on the right track, I do, if you don't mind, highlight three kinds of sets of things that we're doing when we talk about, are we doing things right, and the first one is putting in place a plan. Now, the Government of Canada put in place a series of climate plans, but most recently, the emissions reductions plan in 2022. Because if you don't have a roadmap, to know where you want to go, and how you're going to get there, how are you going to know if you're achieving success, and you're doing the right things? So I think putting in place a really solid plan that gives us that roadmap has been something we're doing right. The other important thing is getting the right investment? How do you attract investment into the sorts of industries and technologies that we need to see Canada prosper as we move to net zero. And the most recent federal budget with a number of tax credits, which I'm sure we'll get into over the course of our chat, is an area where we're sort of moving the bar around Investment Attraction and collaboration. As I said, before shared jurisdiction, we are not doing anything in this country, when it comes to climate and energy and less we are working in partnership with other jurisdictions and with a broad range of stakeholders, and of course, our indigenous partners.

Dan Seguin 06:41

Okay, now, you've taken a new and prominent role as the Assistant Deputy Minister for NRCan, can you tell us a bit more about your role?

Debbie Scharf 06:52

Yeah. And I feel very privileged to be in this role at NRCan and enjoying it very much. So in my particular role, I'm focused on transforming Canada's energy system, through policies, programs and regulatory solutions to try and get to that net zero economy, but very critically, while ensuring affordability, reliability, and security of energy. So it's a bit of a trifecta set of outcomes that we're driving towards, and how you bring all of that together is really at the heart of what my role is, and NRCan and I oversee a large variety of files. But just to highlight a few that may be interesting. First, I'm responsible for the electricity sector and nuclear fuel cycle issues. Within the federal family, we have our resource, regional energy and resource tables, which are new collaborative partnerships with provinces and territories. And I'm happy to talk a bit about that to advance economic opportunities. Of course, the recently launched sustainable jobs plan, very connected to how we transform our industries and create those jobs. And so we provide leadership around that we do some international work on equity, diversity and inclusion, because we want to build the right energy sector of the future. And we do things like just providing that core energy data to Canadians, like our energy Factbooks. So people can understand the energy sector in Canada. So those are all things that I do in my sector, amongst other things.

Dan Seguin 08:09

Great segue here. Okay. So you're spearheading the regional energy and resources table? What is their purpose specifically?

Debbie Scharf 08:18

So that's a great question. So the regional tables are a really different approach that the federal government is taking, and they're very focused on how do you drive economic benefit and economic prosperity in the context of transitioning to net zero? And when it comes to a country like Canada? And when it comes to energy? Where you live matters. A Quebecer is not facing the same type of issues as someone in Alberta, or British Columbia, or Prince Edward Island. And so energy is a very regional issue, the challenges that each region of the country will face in the transition is different. And frankly, the economic opportunities in each region of the country are also going to look a little bit different. And so the regional tables are really about how do we accelerate those economic opportunities on a jurisdiction or regional basis, understanding that these issues are going to be felt differently depending on where you live. And if I can quote Minister Wilkinson, just for one moment, although he's not subject to this podcast, it is, it is a very key comment. He talks about the need to be strategic, ambitious, and collaborative. And those are really the words that I would use to describe what underpins what we're trying to achieve with regional tables.

Dan Seguin 09:26

Can you help me better understand how the regional tables will empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities?

Debbie Scharf 09:36

Yeah, that's a great question. So the starting point for the regional tables, regardless of what jurisdiction we're talking to you, is to decide on a small number of priority areas where we think that as government's working with indigenous partners and stakeholders, we can accelerate and make demonstrable progress in the near term and into the future. So we can't do everything under the sun, but we find three or four priority sectors are priority areas where the province or the territory would like to partner with the federal government to accelerate progress. So that is really the starting point. And then the goal is as governments, how can we align our resources, our timelines, or decision making our regulatory processes to accelerate the development of those priority areas, i.e. those industries. And as governments, we have a tremendous ability to do that better, to be able to make that kind of progress. And so very tangibly, it's really about coming together and having discussions around, okay, if I'm British Columbia, and I want to build a hydrogen economy, what stands in the way of doing that? What would be our objectives around what we'd like to see happen in British Columbia? And what are the sorts of tangible actions we can take together to be able to accelerate that progress. And that is really step one, there's, there's more steps to the regional table, that there's very, that is very much step one, to be able to move these forward. And that's very much where we're focusing our efforts right now.

Dan Seguin 10:54

Okay, let's get just a bit in the weeds here. Debbie, can you tell our listeners more about who the participants are at the regional tables, besides the federal, provincial and territorial governments?

Debbie Scharf 11:06

Yeah. And so, you know, the theme of collaboration, I think, will be a thread throughout many of my answers, but collaboration isn't very there. And partnership, frankly, is a very important part of the regional tables. So, you know, you've heard me express that the starting point is this relationship between governments. The other incredibly important feature to the regional tables is a partnership with indigenous communities and partners in the jurisdiction. And you know, just like energy has a very different landscape across the country, the indigenous landscape is also very different depending on what part of the country you live in. And so we're designing very specific ways of partnering with indigenous organizations and communities in each province. So that, ultimately, we hope that we can have more of a trilateral type of discussion around how to accelerate these priorities. So that's another important feature of Who are these partners at the table. The other piece is, there's a number of stakeholder groups out there that have expertise, whether it be industry partnerships with Union and labor groups who are interested in understanding how we're going to build the jobs of the future, think tanks that are really considering so many long term challenges in this space. So universities, there's a large range of stakeholders that want to be able to participate in this process. And we're finding ways to do that as well. Because at the end of the day, we want to understand how to accelerate change. And we need to have all those perspectives brought to bear. And so we're designing that type of input and partnership into the process as well.

Dan Seguin 12:27

Okay, moving on here. Maybe you can tell us how federal funding from existing sources can be directed towards top regional priorities and projects?

Debbie Scharf 12:38

Yeah, so this is a really important piece. Because if the idea is that through these discussions you've identified, what are your priorities, what are your objectives? And therefore, what are the types of projects that we need to advance in those jurisdictions, you could start to develop a pretty clear priority list around where you want to catalyze investment, and how public and private sector dollars can be brought to bear. And that is exactly sort of when we talk about how do we align our programming, it's really about these tables, being able to provide a sense of what are those priorities that we need to invest in? And then how can we bring the programs and the federal family to bear to help facilitate those program investments. And there are a number of programs that we have that exists within the federal government, whether it be the Strategic Innovation Fund Netzero Accelerator, the soon to be brought to fruition Canada Growth Fund, the infrastructure Bank, the Critical Mineral Strategy that had quite a bit of funding attached to it. So these are all areas that we're looking at to say, how do we match, you know, where public funding can support priority investments and the tables are servicing where those priorities are?

Dan Seguin 13:41

Debbie, can you expand on how the approach to net zero emissions and in nature, a positive future will be different across the country?

Debbie Scharf 13:51

So it's really interesting, I have another thread that you'll hear throughout the discussion around regional tables as the no one size fits all approach, or where you live matters type of idea. And so what we're finding is that there's a lot of consistency in the priorities that different jurisdictions across the country are interested in, in pursuing, but they look very different depending on where you live, I'll give you a very obvious example, if you want to talk about carbon capture and storage and you live in Alberta. That's a very different conversation than if you're in Newfoundland, and you have an industry, like an oil and gas industry that exists offshore, the type of conversation you're going to have will be very different in terms of what types of actions you have to take to move that type of technology solution forward. And the same thing could be said around, you know, fuel sources like hydrogen, if you live in Alberta, or Saskatchewan, you may produce hydrogen a bit differently than if you were in Quebec, or in Manitoba. And so it's very interesting to see how common priorities can find their expression very different depending on where you live.

Dan Seguin 14:54

In Canada, where do you see the biggest opportunities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Since in nature, and where do you see the biggest opportunities in technology?

Debbie Scharf 15:05

Yeah. Um, so I would be remiss if I didn't talk about carbon capture, and storage or carbon capture utilization and storage, CCS or CCUS. As a great example, for Canada, we have an enormous amount of natural advantages in space. And it is going to be a very important technology for Canada to be able to reduce emissions and think about those hard to abate sectors not only oil and gas, but concrete, steel, other types of industrial activities that need to capture emissions. And in Canada, we have wonderful geology, and we wonder about sort of natural strengths. And we have an amazing industry and investments have been made in this technology in years past, that really put us in an excellent position to take advantage of a technology like that. And in the vein of CCUS carbon capture as a concept is a very important opportunity area. And another example where you can capture carbon, but not necessarily through a technology is, for example, through our 2 billion trees program, where using nature to capture carbon is another very interesting way to be able to tackle this wall restoring nature and biodiversity and having a number of other positive impacts. So I'd say there's a lot to say for carbon capture technologies and a lot of reasons why it's a unique opportunity area for Canada.

Dan Seguin 16:21

Now, staying on this topic of net zero, which sectors are most likely to achieve Net Zero first?

Debbie Scharf 16:30

That's a very hard question, because it's going to be a tricky path, I think, for all sectors, because each one is going to have its own unique challenges to get to net zero. Typically, when I think about it, we talk a lot about reducing emissions in different sectors. I like to start by talking about the energy mix that actually underpins all sectors, and how do you get that energy next to be clean, reliable and affordable, because without that, you're not going to get any sector to actually adopt those clean energy sources. So it is we're starting with electricity where we've made significant headway and is probably the front runner in Canada as a sector in terms of reducing emissions with the phase out of unabated coal fired electricity generation happening in 2030. We're Canada's international leader, that sectors 83% clean and growing. And we have a commitment to get to net zero emissions in that sector by 2035. But what I will say is that's enormous progress and enormous progress that will be made going forward. And now we have to look at getting clean electricity to more people and more industries. And that will be a challenge in and of itself. And the other part of the energy system that's definitely worth attention and will be so important, are clean fuels like hydrogen, because we know that some industries and applications will not be able to use electricity or are going to need to use clean fuels. So I like to think about how do we get the energy system in the right place, have it reliable, affordable and clean, and then you have to get to adoption, and get each of the sectors to be able to adopt that. And you know, then you get into another set of challenges around technology and industrial processes, which will be a challenge. But you know, I would say electricity probably is coming up at the top.

Dan Seguin 18:06

How is NRCan enabling a clean energy future through electrification?

Debbie Scharf 18:13

Yeah, and I think electricity has made its way into your podcasts in the past. It's a very, very important topic. And that's because there are experts that have estimated that the electricity system may need to double, maybe even triple by the time 2050 comes around. And that is going to be an enormous challenge for Canada and nation building, frankly, a challenge for Canada. Think about railroads, the transmission lines of today are the railroads of the past to be able to get electricity to where it needs to get to. And that's one of the reasons why we have the regional tables where we're talking about electricity, infrastructure and investments there. And we're soon to launch the Canadian electricity Advisory Council, which was previously called the pan Canadian grid council to help help us through some of these challenges are that maybe what I will say is perhaps not NRCan, but the Government of Canada in terms of advancing electrification, I think it is worth just reiterating what was in our federal budget that was just announced a number of weeks ago, because there's some real game changers in there. For example, the introduction of a clean electricity tax credit, which is applicable to tax and non tax entities. And to not use jargon, that means you're not a private sector company, it's still okay, which means utilities can actually get access to these tax credits, which is an enormous leap forward for the application of these tax credits, which will help with the investments required in the electricity sector. There's also new and enhanced low cost financing that's being brought to bear with commitments around how the Canada Infrastructure Bank will be spending its money and the Canada Growth Fund. And then of course, the top up to NRCan programming to the tune of about $3 billion to help ensure critical projects get built. And even more important than having tax credits and strategic financing and targeted programs is that they're all going to work together and really come together in an integrated way to support investment. And I think that is a major leap forward in terms of thinking about how to catalyze investment in this sector.

Dan Seguin 20:04

Now, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges and opportunities that you see?

Debbie Scharf 20:10

I almost feel like the challenge and the opportunity is the flip side of one another. Because huge challenge, we got to build out the system - a huge opportunity, we can build it out more flexibly, more reliably, we could bring more energy efficiency to bear which by the way, will be critical to not overbuilt the system, bring new technologies to bear - like smart grid technologies, and leverage new possibilities like vehicle to grid storage for electric vehicles. Talk about all those batteries that are going to be out there! All of those technologies are enormous opportunities. But the flip side is we need a lot of electricity. And we got to build that out. And what I would say is at the heart of the challenge, is how do you find the balance between having a clean system, an affordable system and a reliable system? And making decisions to build things out in a way that balances those three things, I think is the challenge on the opportunity

Dan Seguin 20:59

To accelerate success, what are the countries should Canada be looking to emulate or learn from?

Debbie Scharf 21:07

Yeah, that is a great point. Because we are not going to get to net zero without learning from partners and others around the world. And there are a few, I think, sort of really good models out there of other countries. And you really need to look to the ones that are tackling similar challenges that we have here in Canada to see what we can learn from them. For example, you know, there's an EU model around integrating regional electricity trade that can be really fascinating for Canada to learn from given that we have fragmented provincial jurisdictions with different market and regulatory structures. And we got to find a way to connect the system together for the collective good. And there are countries like Australia that have quite a similar type of structure to their economy, being the large energy producer, but also wanting to tackle climate and having sort of similar constitutional divisions of labour with their states. And in fact, believe it or not, Australia did something very similar to the regional energy and resource tables. It wasn't called that, but they were a model that we looked at before, before we landed the final design for that particular piece. So we do a lot of international engagement, bilaterally or multilaterally, because there's a lot to learn from others.

Dan Seguin 22:11

Debbie, is it possible to transition to a netzero future without economic hardships in a carbon heavy sector? Can you give an example on how to achieve this?

Debbie Scharf 22:23

Well, to quote another thing that someone wants once mentioned before is the best way to predict the future is to create it. So I think we have to very consciously think about the future we want to create, and how to diversify the industries that we have into new product lines, new clean energy opportunities, in the way that we think about the activities we're going to take going forward. But you know, one example that I think is worth picking up on is the work that we're doing on sustainable jobs in particular. Because this is an area that you can really get wrong, and talking about hardship is an area that you absolutely don't want to get wrong. And so really looking at where we want to see economic growth, and how do you support workers to be able to be ready for the type of opportunities that are going to be available in the future. And I would be remiss if I did not mention that we did publish a first interim Sustainable Jobs Plan earlier this year in February, and it talked about 10 key areas where we can make some demonstrable progress, and we already are making demonstrable progress to get the workforce ready for the future. And frankly, it will be a differentiator because you can't have economic activity without people working. And if you don't have the right labor market, there won't be investment decisions made by companies. And so I think that that is one area that we have to get right.

Dan Seguin 23:38

Now, the Royal Bank of Canada released the thought leadership piece last October. That said, the electricity industry is netzero already, but that we would need to double the electricity output that currently exists today. What are your thoughts on Canada's electricity sector, its readiness, and that assessment.

Debbie Scharf 23:59

So I already mentioned that Canada's grid is about 83% non emitting. Having said that, though, there are five provinces where there's still a significant reliance on unabated fossil fuels, provinces like Alberta, Saskatchewan, some Atlantic provinces, Ontario. And so again, where you live matters when it comes to energy, because when it comes to being Net Zero ready, it's going to feel a bit different in those provinces than if you were Quebec or British Columbia. And so we have to really focus on how to support the jurisdictions that need to get there and will be faced with the greatest challenges. And I cannot emphasize enough like the scale of the challenge. We tend to use the word generational quite a bit, perhaps we use it a bit too much. But it is very generational in nature, just in terms of its size and scope. And so, you know, once again, to just mention that we know as a federal government, we need to be a constructive partner in the Federation around these particular issues and to help those jurisdictions that need help to get to where they need to be and the tax measures in the budget are very good exams. boasts of how we do that providing long term stable, predictable investment climate, and frankly, helping to reduce costs, which means reducing ratepayer impacts around these particular projects in the jurisdictions that are going to feel it the most. So do I think that we have the technology to get there? I do. Does that mean that it's going to be easy for those provinces and jurisdictions that have a long way to go? No, it will not be easy.

Dan Seguin 25:25

Interesting. Is there a myth or misunderstanding about the energy transition or netzero, that you wish more people understood?

Debbie Scharf 25:36

This is a great question. So I'm going to answer it a little bit more from the perspective of what I worry about the most, when I think about the work that I do. And what I worry about the most is that we don't always appreciate that Canada is an energy producing nation. So we generate an enormous amount of wealth, security, and cheap energy from our energy sectors. And in turn, we are providing the world with energy security, not every country can say that. In fact, there's a fairly small number of countries around the globe that can say that. But it puts us in a bit of a tricky position, because we're producing a lot of energy for other people. And when we think about getting to net zero, that creates an interesting dynamic for Canada about how we get there. And I look at other countries like Europe, and it makes you realize that energy affordability and energy security is actually our battle to lose, because those are things we have today. But another country, there are countries, they're not things that they have. And we definitely don't want to end up in that particular situation. So we just have to think a little, I worry that people don't appreciate the challenge unique to Canada as an energy producer. And when we're thinking about the energy transition. And when we design our policies, we have to think not just about emission reductions, but how do we continue to generate that wealth, that prosperity and that security from the energy system? And we have to solve all those complex outcomes for Canadians. Otherwise, we're not going to get it right. And we're going to lose the battle.

Dan Seguin 27:02

Finally, Debbie, how do you make the fight against climate change equitable, and accessible for everyone to participate in? What's needed for all Canadians to buy into the net zero plan?

Debbie Scharf 27:16

So a couple of things that I would say about this. The first thing is, all levels of government have to cooperate, right? Like we've got to get, we've got to get the collaborations and partnerships, right to be able to create the enabling conditions to get to where we want to go. I would say that for Canadians, and my sense is, I would feel this, and I do feel this personally. So it is a very personal experience, I need to have a job, I need to put food on the table, I need to feel like I'm making the right choices. I need to feel like the government and the country are making the right choices. And so we just have to make sure that in all the things that we're doing, we're being mindful that these are outcomes that we need to be able to deliver for Canadians, and not only for the Canadians that are employed in the workforce, but for marginalized people, underrepresented groups, like how can we create a very inclusive Canada on the path to net zero. And I think if we can develop the vision and implement a vision for an inclusive, secure, affordable, and prosperous Canada, then we're going to get the buy-in that we need. And the trick is to be able to solve all those things really well.

Dan Seguin 28:20

Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

Debbie Scharf 28:27

I am scared but I am ready.

Dan Seguin 28:32

Now, what are you reading right now?

Debbie Scharf 28:34

A historical fiction about World War Two.

Dan Seguin 28:36

Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one?

Debbie Scharf 28:40

Well, I am the eternal optimist. So I would name it Possibility.

Dan Seguin 28:45

Now Debbie, who is someone you truly admire?

Debbie Scharf 28:49

Easiest answer, my mother?

Dan Seguin 28:51

What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Debbie Scharf 28:56

And I would say watching my kids grow into adults.

Dan Seguin 29:01

What has been the biggest challenge to you personally since the pandemic began?

Debbie Scharf 29:08

Yeah, so the biggest challenge I would say is actually supporting my children who I think have borne the biggest brunt of pandemic choices in society. So I would say a real sort of personal experience around the pandemic.

Dan Seguin 29:22

Okay, we've been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or even show?

Debbie Scharf 29:29

Yeah, so right now, Firefly Lane and Night Agent, which shows my bizarre ability to move between romantic comedies and action options.

Dan Seguin 29:41

Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?

Debbie Scharf 29:47

Oh, that's an easy question, because I am pretty excited about this industry right now. I think we are in the middle of the most difficult but exciting time in the energy transition. And I'm actually feeling pretty privileged to play a part of on behalf of all Canadians to try and get us there.

Dan Seguin 30:03

Well, Debbie, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect?

Debbie Scharf 30:16

Well, the easiest way to do that is to send an email Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Energy Systems Sector at Natural Resources Canada.

Dan Seguin 30:25

Thanks again for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Debbie Scharf 30:29

Thanks so much, Dan.

Dan Seguin 30:33

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

View Details

Governments around the world are working to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Consider Canada’s goal to be net zero by 2050. With targets in place, businesses and organizations are tasked with understanding their own emissions and finding ways to limit them. But where to begin? What’s the cost? On episode 110 of thinkenergy, Glenn Mooney, Manager of Energy Services for Envari Energy Solutions, shares the business case to operate a more sustainable (and competitive) business in the age of net zero targets.

Related links

• Glenn Mooney, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glenn-mooney-4656265/
• Envari Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/
• Envari Advisor Plus: https://envari.com/advisor-plus/
• Envari Energy Dashboard: https://envari.com/envari-energy-dashboard/

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Dan Seguin 0:06

This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. The issue of climate change has resulted in a global mission by governments around the world to set targets in an effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In response, businesses and organizations have been tasked with understanding their own emissions, and finding ways to reduce them. But where do businesses begin? Identifying all sources of emissions a business produces can be a daunting task, especially for large organizations with complex operations. Furthermore, collecting, measuring and analyzing data can be time consuming and challenging, especially if the data is dispersed across various systems and departments. It requires specialized equipment, and expertise plus, government regulations can be complex and ever changing, making it difficult for businesses and organizations to stay up to date with the latest requirements. Finally, there is an issue of cost where many businesses and organizations may struggle to justify the expense, especially if they operate in a highly competitive industry with narrow profit margins. How do they navigate what funding and rebates are available? So here is today's big question. How can businesses be informed about their own emissions, and get on track to become a more competitive and sustainable business in the age of net zero targets? Joining us today is Glen Mooney, manager of energy services for inquiry. Glen is responsible for business development, and programs for a variety of energy management and energy advisory services. Glenn, so great to have you join us today. Now, Glenn, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners about Envari and the type of programs and services the organization provides.

Glenn Mooney 2:43

Sure. Envari has been around since 2001. So we just celebrated our 20th anniversary last year, kind of the year before during COVID, so it wasn't much of a celebration. We formed... we've grown out of what was called Energy Ottawa, we've rebranded to Envari a few years back. So that's kind of the history of the organization, we've broken it into three practices, we have a lighting practice, an electrical practice and a buildings practice. And we provide pretty much anything to do with buildings, energy, not just electricity, but electricity, gas, water, Steam, carbon, anything that is a resource or an energy based element. We do on the building side. So I'm responsible for the building side and kind of anything that happens inside them. So we do a lot of systems design for building systems. We do a lot of engineering and audits and assessments and feasibility studies, a lot of green building initiatives. But the one thing we're probably best at is we do a lot of projects, we've probably done well over 1000 energy and sustainability projects from end to end - concept to commissioning, we call it so HVAC, and building automation, ultra efficient heat pumps. We've done a lot of work in that space lately, building automation and controls and doing some really interesting things on the control side, anything data, energy data, carbon data, doing tracking for our customers, and helping to support them with analyzing data and giving them tangible results out of what we find - distributed energy resources. So we've tried to create a business that fits in an area that wasn't serviced well. And I think that served us very well over time.

Dan Seguin 4:12

Cool. So Glen, what are some of the common challenges businesses face when trying to achieve their greenhouse gas emission targets? And how can you help them overcome these challenges?

Glenn Mooney 4:27

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just where to start. This is a new world. It's a new world for all of us. It's a big shift, and they just need some help, some support. Where am I? How do I start? Where do I need to go? What kind of pathway probably an overused term but it fits for the purpose of chasing carbon. The big thing I guess we can help with is the expertise but just we've been through it, so end-to-end again, you need support right from the top. So you need support from your, your CEO level, your CFO level. That's the big challenge because the economics of this is a bit challenging. The asset management people, the operations people is just getting them engaged, get the stakeholders engaged because a lot of money is a big part of this. So it's it's managing that... managing it versus capital plans, those sorts of things. So like we as a company, or as a group of companies, we've kind of taken what our CEO calls a moonshot, we were trying to go to net zero by 2030. And it's going to be a challenge, but hey, we're going to do it.

Dan Seguin 5:23

Now. Glenn, can you help me better understand how you typically approach the analysis of the company's energy usage? And identify areas where improvements can be made?

Glenn Mooney 5:37

Yeah, we start with what we call it an energy balance, which kind of informs a carbon balance. So that's basically taking how much energy does the building use? How does it use it? How does that convert into carbon or your CO2 emissions, or your greenhouse gases, your footprint, whatever you want to call it, and then we start to break it down. There's a lot of intelligence we can get from information just being in some buildings, understanding how systems work and kind of break down that - how is natural gas used in a building? How is electricity used in the building? And then what can you do about the carbon sources like the natural gas? How do you kind of translate those into potential measures that can reduce that footprint, it's tough the grid, you'll never it's tough to get to a zero because the grid itself is not clean. So even just recently, the Ontario grid as they used to say it was 93% clean, it's now closer to 90, because we brought on a little bit more carbon generation for a while. There's some refurbishment is going on in the nuclear side of things. So it's a it's a bit of a challenge to get to zero, there are ways to do it. And that's the path that we try to find. It also kind of brings up as a whole hybrid one, do you still do want the gas meter off the building? Or are you willing to use gas in really tough times when it's an extremely cold day that maybe some of the other surfaces or sources can't totally get you all the heat that you need, say on a cold, cold winter day?

Dan Seguin 6:54

Okay, now, Glenn, maybe you can give an example of a successful energy efficiency project, Envari has implemented for a business that is helping them achieve their greenhouse gas emission targets?

Glenn Mooney 7:08

Sure. I guess the one that comes to mind is kind of a large campus multi use multifunction looking at everything from solar to tons of carbon reduction efforts, looking at their fleet and electric vehicle charging, and the infrastructure that goes with it, the biggest thing with a lot of this new shift to less carbon is the impact on the electrical capacity of the facilities or their own network. And then also, how does it impact the utility, the local distribution company like Hydro Ottawa, because we're now asking for more electricity to support this. A lot is done in building automation systems. So we spend a lot of space there and probably more retro commissioning. The best thing to do is lower your load as low as you can first and then look at other ways of delivering the heating and the cooling to the building. So retro commissioning is one just let's let's minimize the load first, and then start from there. And then the HVAC systems, look at what alternatives are there to existing carbon consuming gas devices in a building. So that's where that hybrid discussion comes in. And it I emphasize that because it is a bit of a mind shift for people, they may want to... let's just get that meter off the building. As I said before, we really need to think that decision through because that's got a lot of impact economically, when you try to go build your business case for it. I think the biggest thing for them sorry, Dan, is just to really match it with your capital plans, let's not throw out good equipment right away. And that's a tendency to kind of model things that way. But let's look at... is that boiler due for replacement in say in 2032, or 33? Let's plan on that, unless you've got a more aggressive target. But let's try to match it up with how you're actually going to do your lifecycle of your equipment.

Dan Seguin 8:47

Now, what role does technology and innovation play in reducing greenhouse gas emissions for businesses? And how does Envari stay up to date with all of those latest technologies?

Glenn Mooney 9:01

So we've mentioned it earlier, we've probably built over 1000 projects. So we know what equipment is out there. We're always engaged with the industry, the manufacturing side and the vendor side to understand what's out there. But we also go beyond that. We've done quite a few pilots. We did one recently, for Natural Resources Canada, where we looked at cold climate heat pumps in real situations, we installed them in actual people's houses, and we monitored them, assessed them and figured out what the advantages were and what the economics of it were. And one of the big things that came out of it is just the improvement that's happened just even in the last three, four or five years to heat pump technologies. For example. We're seeing it more on the industrial side where we were seeing heat pumps right now that we can get 180 and 190 degree water out of temperatures that were never before able to be brought out of heat pumps. So those are big advances as a lot of technology and a lot of R&D going into those areas for different products. And I think we have to be also mindful of the fact that it's going to keep going. So to my example earlier of maybe changing a boiler out in 2020, or sorry, 2033, hard to keep track of time these days, we have to know that there's going to be better technologies then as well. So let's keep some hope for the future.

Dan Seguin 10:15

Okay. How do you ensure that businesses stay compliant with government regulations regarding greenhouse gas emissions?

Glenn Mooney 10:25

So we have a separate to practice that we we call Advisor Plus or I guess, a service where we actually help customers track their energy, track their carbon, advise them, when there's changes, advise them on how markets are going... is there any changes are there regulation changes carbon and commodity pricing of electricity and gas, other elements basically of commodity pricing, and just try to give them some good forecasting, we find that there's a lot of lot of tools out there available to everybody, there's so many sources of information, and we try to kind of bring it down to a simple one. And we provide that to them, rather than them having to go look for it.

Dan Seguin 11:04

Okay, I've got a follow up question here for you, Glen. How do you measure and track progress towards greenhouse emission reduction targets? And what metrics do you use?

Glenn Mooney 11:18

Yeah, and that's the tools part of it. So we have a couple of really great tools. One of them is a dashboard. And I think it's industry leadin, It brings in anything you want to bring into it, electricity, gas, water, steam, carbon, and it's got some really good artificial intelligence in it to A - help you run a facility and get some good insights into how your facility is running. But it's also that record that shows you how you're doing progress wise year over year, month over month, those sorts of things, the metrics we use, we tend to standardize on the federal metrics, because this is across Canada effort that's happening. So I will say Ener-Can probably the, they have a product called red screen that they use for their own modeling. So we tend to know that that will be updated as regular and we've decided as a company that that will be kind of our first level of metric as far as how greenhouse gases are calculated.

Dan Seguin 12:12

Okay, now, let's talk about affordability. How does a company balance the financial costs of implementing energy efficient projects, with the potential cost savings and environmental benefits.

Glenn Mooney 12:28

So there's a lot of grants and incentives and programs and offerings out there, keeping track of it is a challenge where they fit, where they don't fit, and how long the windows are open for, they come onto the market, and then they may be close. So there's limited time to maybe make application to some of these. So that's what we help our customers with is, here's what's available for your project. If there's an urgency to it, we get them through that quickly and get them applied and get them hopefully funded for these because these are not great business cases in a lot of times so those grants are essential to actually driving this forward. It's tough sometimes to make business cases these are these are the realities is natural gas is cheaper than electricity right now, our job is to try to find a way to make it more economically feasible to move to a less carbon intensive source. So that's a challenge. And I mentioned it earlier, getting to that CFO level, educating them on this type of business case, because it's not the simple energy efficiency, simple payback business case, there used to be this longer term play here with longer term implications. So it's getting everybody involved, it's getting shareholders to make a commitment, and then educating people from the top to the bottom.

Dan Seguin 13:36

Now, Glen, how do you educate and train businesses on best practices for reducing greenhouse gas emissions? And what role do employee engagement and behavioral change play in this process?

Glenn Mooney 13:51

Yeah, so it is getting that buy in from the top the shareholders and quite often, that's where it'll come from. It'll come from a shareholder statement. And then the rest of the organization needs to walk the talk. And the people at the top, the executive organization needs to actually walk that talk and show that they're serious about doing this, the CFO has to understand the economics of it and be prepared to support it, it's a lens to this. It's a very, these are very precious resources, and it's how they look at it, you've got to kind of create that lens that everything you do in your business needs to be focused on something like this, our kids will figure it out for us because they're going to tell us when we're offsides, that's what a lot of us are going to bring this, and hear from our own families... what are you guys doing in your business? So I think that's one of the neat pressures that probably gonna hold your feet to the fire on this one. So it's a challenge to get everybody to buy in. But I think good examples, and as we move down this path, I think we're gonna see more and more successes that are going to make it easier for the next company to pick it up and go with it.

Dan Seguin 14:45

Okay. How do you ensure that energy efficiency measures are sustainable, and can be maintained over the long term?

Glenn Mooney 14:56

That's the data part of it is tracking. We do a lot of data acquisition and data analysis with insights. But then we also do a lot of measurement and verification, because this is one of the things that will happen as people make commitments to reducing carbon, there's always going to be watchdogs out there watching to make sure that you've lived up to what you said you're going to live up to. So having that measurement and verification by, kind of an unbiased or an independent group, which we perform a lot for clients, I think is a big part of that, because your going to need to some point, put a stamp on it and say, yes, we saved this much carbon.

Dan Seguin 15:30

Finally, Glen, what advice do you have for businesses that are just starting to address their greenhouse gas emissions? And what are some of the most important steps they can take to achieve their targets?

Glenn Mooney 15:45

I'd say find a friend with knowledge we all do that. There's a tendency because it's new to try to solve the solution in house yourself and try to educate yourself and bring yourself up to speed. But I always believe in surrounding yourself with smart people and just reach out to the people that have already done it, we do the same, like we're not all knowing nobody knows all of this, I think we know a really good share of it. But we have some really smart partners around us that we'll often lean on to provide different components of it that we may not have in house, but we try to have the best minds in the industry around us to support us when we're dealing with customers.

Dan Seguin 16:19

Okay, Glenn. Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, sir. Are you ready?

Glenn Mooney 16:30

I am ready.

Dan Seguin 16:31

Okay, here we go. What are you reading right now?

Glenn Mooney 16:35

It's a book called bear town. It's about a fictitious hockey team. And I won't give it away. But in in another country, you don't really figure that out till halfway through the book. But I played a lot of hockey when I was younger. So I kind of relate to this. Good Book.

Dan Seguin 16:47

Glenn, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do.

Glenn Mooney 16:51

I do not have a boat. I spent a lot of time in my younger years around friends at race boats. I spent a lot of time in boat racing. And I guess the one that sticks in my head was a boat that was just physically a beautiful boat very fast. And it was called Color Me Gone and that's a name that always stuck with me is that was he lived up to his name?

Dan Seguin 17:09

Okay, who is someone that you admire?

Glenn Mooney 17:13

I'd have to go with my father - my parents are amazing people, but my father and my ex... or not my ex father in law. My father in law that just passed away a couple years ago, actually, during COVID. They were just very good people. And my father in law, the way he lived his life was just... be kind of people and that's one that I've always I saw the impact that it had around people. When he passed away there a couple years ago, he was just known as a very kind, gentle person.

Dan Seguin 17:40

Okay, next one here. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Glenn Mooney 17:46

I saw David Copperfield live actually at the NAC. And I can remember walking, I was going, I have no idea. It was cool. It was entertaining. But... and the other magic I've had in my life personally, is I was behind the net for the golden goal in Vancouver at the Olympics. So that's a that was a pretty magical moment in another way.

Dan Seguin 18:05

Okay. Glen, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Glenn Mooney 18:14

So one of one of the things I did and I'm, I guess a little bit different, and COVID... I actually lost weight. Because I was working at home, I was very dedicated. I needed to lose weight. So I went and did it. The struggle part of that is keeping it off. So kind of changed lifestyle, you creep back, you kind of make adjustments to go back. So I'm not sure I'm winning yet. But I'm trying hard.

Dan Seguin 18:32

Okay, now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?

Glenn Mooney 18:41

So what I'm hooked on right now is called Loudermilk. I don't think it's Netflix. I think it's a it's a prime one. It's just funny, I just sorry. It's my type of humor. And I kind of relate to it. It's good. We just finished Daisy Jones in the six which I thought was good. Somebody said last week, I never clued into this, but it's kind of loosely based on the whole drama of Fleetwood Mac. So as so soon somebody said that, I was like okay, now I get it. So yeah, very good series.

Dan Seguin 19:05

Lastly, what's exciting you about the industry right now.

Glenn Mooney 19:10

So I've done this for... I did the math the other day, over 30 years that I've been in the energy type business. And I would say that this is just accelerated about 10 fold. We've done energy, this whole transition to climate change, carbon reduction, it's just foots all fully down on the on the accelerator for this. It's things are going to change so much in the next 20 years, probably far more than I've seen in 30 years before now. So I think that's pretty exciting. We have a lot of young engineers here that are just incredibly smart, but they've got a neat future ahead of them with this.

Dan Seguin 19:43

Well, Glenn, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you. How can they connect?

Glenn Mooney 19:59

Envari.com, we have a bunch of video stories of the kind of work we've done. And I would say that just go go take a look at our website, and we've done a really nice job of it and our comms people have done a great job at just trying to frame the work that we've done. So check it out. Envari.com.

Dan Seguin 20:14

Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Glenn Mooney 20:20

It was great. Thanks, Dan.

Dan Seguin 20:21

Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

View Details

Each year, Canadian homes and buildings—and the electricity generated to power them—release 111 million tonnes of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions into the atmosphere. To limit the impact, the Government of Canada aims to reduce GHG emissions 40–45% by 2030, compared to levels in 2005. And heat pumps are emerging as a solution, increasing energy efficiency while cutting energy costs and lowering carbon emissions. Shawn Carr, Manager of Customer Experience at Hydro Ottawa, explains on thinkenergy episode 109.

Related links

• Shawn Carr, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-carr-6797b612/
• Canada Greener Homes Initiative: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/canada-greener-homes-initiative/24831
• Air Source Heat Pump Toolkit: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/maps-tools-and-publications/tools/modelling-tools/toolkit-for-air-source-heat-pump-sizing-and-selection/23558

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.

Dan Seguin 00:28

Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you know that we spend more than 80% of our time indoors, whether it's at home, work, school, shopping, or doing recreational activities. Currently, Canadian homes and buildings combined with the electricity generated to power them, releases 111 million tons of greenhouse gas emissions into our atmosphere every year. To protect our environment and reduce the impact of climate change. The Government of Canada has committed to reducing Canada's total GHG emissions to 40 to 45, below 2005 levels by 2030 and to reaching net zero by 2050. The building sector is the third largest source of emissions in Canada.

Dan Seguin 01:27

As we look for ways to shape a more sustainable future Heat pumps are emerging as one of the climate solutions that can reduce energy costs, lower carbon emissions and increase energy efficiency. Now, I say they're emerging as a climate solution. But in fact, the concept of using heat pumps to transfer heat from one place to another has been around for centuries.

Dan Seguin 01:56

Since its early conception, heat pump technology continued to evolve throughout the 19th and early 20th century. Today, it is widely used for both heating and cooling buildings, as well as for various industrial and commercial applications. So here's today's big question. Are heat pumps the answer to reducing the carbon emissions of Canada's built environment? And are they being adopted at a pace necessary to achieve the 2030 and 2050 targets? Today my special guest is Shawn Carr. Shawn blends energy, sustainability, green building project management experience with business experience as a team leader, manager and developer. He is a strong advocate on climate action and serves on numerous committees with organizations such as Building Owners and Managers Association better known as BOMA, the Ontario Energy Association, and the electricity Distributors Association. He's also the manager of customer experience at Hydro Ottawa. Shawn, welcome to the show. Now, Shawn, this is pretty cool. I understand heat pump technology has been around since 1857. At a high level, what are heat pumps? And how do they work?

Shawn Carr 03:29

Well, you're absolutely right, Dan heat pumps have been around a long time. And they're actually a proven and reliable technology here in Canada and around the world. And they're capable of providing year round Comfort Control for your home by supplying heat in the winter, cooling in the summer, and in some cases heating hot water for your home as well. In fact, it's likely that most people have already interacted with this type of technology on a daily basis. For example, both refrigerators and air conditioners operate using the same principles and technology as heat pumps do. A heat pump is essentially just an electrical driven device that extracts heat from a low temperature place and delivers it to a high temperature place. So if you think of your home as a big refrigerator as energy is extracted from the air inside your home and transferred outside, it's going to cool the inside of your home. This is how pumps operate in essence In cooling mode. Similarly, if we were to talk about the heating mode, as heat is grabbed from outside from the air and moved inside your home the temperature is actually going to increase inside your home. And so essentially what that means is a heat pump is fully reversible. It can both heat and cool. And so in essence it has dual functionality. I think what makes heat pumps so different from other heating technologies such as gas furnaces and boilers is that those technologies provide space heating by adding heat to the air through a combustion process. So for example, combusting a fuel such as natural gas. And although their efficiencies have improved, they are still below 100%, meaning not all the available energy from combustion is used to treat the air, there are losses involved through incomplete combustion, and heat lost in the exhaust air. So, heat pumps work on a different principle, the electricity input into the heat pump is used to just transfer thermal energy between two locations, there is actually no combustion process at all. Heat pumps don't generate heat, they just redirect existing heat from one location to another. And so what that means is it allows them to operate much more efficiently. And so I thought it would be valuable just to explain kind of how efficiency is measured with a heat pump, it's actually expressed by something called the coefficient of performance, typically referred to as the COP . And what the COPis, is a ratio between the rate at which the heat pump actually transfers thermal energy, and the amount of electrical power it actually consumes. So, for example, if a heat pump used one unit of energy to transfer the heat equivalent of three units of energy, the COP would be three, and its efficiency would be 300%. So it actually delivers three times more energy than it consumes, in that example. Why does that matter? Well, knowing the COP of a heat pump allows you to judge how efficiently the unit is working. And so the higher the COP , the less electricity a heat pump consumes. So it's kind of like magic. And what I'll say is a COP of three or higher is actually pretty common with this new era of heat pumps, even in colder locations where there is less heat to transfer. And so it's also important to understand, though, as the outside air temperature drops, so does the COP. And so by point of comparison, if you were just using electric resistance heating, like baseboards, to heat your home, they actually have a COP of one. Okay, cool now, so why are heat pumps more popular than ever right now? Yeah, I mean, Heat pumps are certainly having a moment right now, in particular, this new era of heat pumps, and that's because they are a big lever for decarbonisation, and reaching net zero emissions by 2050. Technology and heat pumps have advanced dramatically, making them more efficient and more affordable even in cold climates. So in Canada, heating our homes accounts for about 16% of the carbon emissions in our country. And space and water heating specifically represent about 85% of residential greenhouse gas emissions. So replacing fossil fuel heating systems with electric options will significantly decrease household emissions. We could just use more traditional forms of electric heat like baseboards and electric furnaces, but the pumps are far more efficient options of beneficial electrification. So if we want to drive deeper emissions cuts, and we want to do it cost effectively for Canadians, switching to a heat pump is one of the most impactful ways of reducing your home's emissions. Heat pumps are becoming a pillar in a home electrification strategy.

Dan Seguin 09:21

Now, Shawn, answer this for me. Why is running our home with more electricity and choosing a heat pump a climate friendly choice?

Shawn Carr 09:31

Thanks for that Dan. It's a good question. I mean, first of all, there are lots of different fuels or energy types that can power our homes we you know, we've we commonly use natural gas propane furnace oil and electricity to heat our homes and all of these energy types have different carbon footprints and some are much more environmentally friendly than others. So if we talk about Canada, we have, as a country, one of the cleanest power grids in the world, and our government has committed to having a netzero energy grid by 2035. So even in regions where there may still be a significant portion of electricity generation that relies on fossil fuels, that electricity generation will steadily get cleaner and cleaner while burning, non renewable natural gas or propane in your home for heat is always going to produce emissions. And so there have actually been reports on the different ways for Canada to get to net zero. And the modeling consistently shows that electrification of heating as a necessary part of the transition to net zero and Canada's building sector. And so heat pumps specifically are critical to Canada's energy transition. In fact, probably critical to the world's energy transition, the technology is proven, they use up to 70% less energy than conventional home heating technologies, and they will probably become the default means of heating both indoor spaces and hot water systems in the near future. The other thing I'll point out is that air conditioning demand is rising. And by providing both heating and cooling heat pumps can help people manage climate impacts in regions where people may not have air conditioning today, but are starting to face hotter, and more frequent summer heat waves. We witnessed that with what happened with the fires and in British Columbia, and those are in regions where people traditionally may have not had air conditioning.

Dan Seguin 11:47

Now, what is a cold climate heat pump? And is that what Canadians should purchase?

Shawn Carr 11:56

Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. And so advancements in air source heat pump technology now means that there are heat pump options that are, I would say, far better suited or adapted to operating in the cold Canadian climate. And those are referred to as cold climate heat pumps. What makes them different from a traditional air source heat pump is it's really just some of the equipment that's contained within the unit. So they use variable capacity compressors, inverters, improved heat exchanger designs and controls to maximize heating capacity at colder temperatures while maintaining high efficiencies during milder conditions. And so what that means is they can still redirect heat from outside to inside your home quite efficiently even in conditions down to minus 20 degrees Celsius or less. So to classify as a cold climate heat pump under the federal Canada greener homes grant, which we can talk more about later, heat pumps must have a coefficient of performance a COP of 1.8 or higher at minus 15 degrees Celsius. So that means that the heat pump must maintain an efficiency of at least 180% at minus 15 Celsius. And just again, as a reminder, the most efficient gas burning furnaces out there have an efficiency of like 96 or 97%.

Dan Seguin 13:37

Okay, I've got another follow up question here for you. Can cold climate heat pumps meet the heating demand on their own? Or are there circumstances where backup heat is required?

Shawn Carr 13:53

Yeah, so I guess the short answer is it depends. You know, whether or not you need a backup heat source for your heat pump is going to depend, you know, on a number of factors, you know, for example, the type of heat pump you purchase, the climate zone you live in, and the design and efficiency of of your home. So, in some parts of Canada that are milder, a heat pump might be all you need, but in other colder areas, you will most certainly need a backup system. And that's because, you know, as the temperature drops, heat pumps start to become less efficient at heating. And when the temperature gets to a certain point, you know, the unit will shut off altogether, or it'll work in tandem with your backup heat system. And that shut off point is going to depend on your unit, the unit that you chose, but typically, that shutoff point could be anywhere from minus 15 Celsius down to minus 25 Celsius or lower. So, you know, what I will also say is the heat pump system is not typically sized to deliver 100% of the peak heating load that your home is designed for, because that could lead to an oversize system that might cycle on and off. So it's really important, I would say that if you're considering a heat pump that you work with a mechanical contractor for selecting and specifying a heat pump, and a backup heat source that's going to be right for your home, you know, right for your budget and your needs. And there are many options for a backup heat system. Some heat pumps come with an integrated electric resistance heating system that functions as a backup system at very low temperature. So think of that as just like an electric resistance element like a hairdryer that's been installed inside your duck. However, there are also natural gas backup options such as traditional high efficiency furnaces that can be used as a backup source if your home happens to be centrally ducted. And these are often referred to as hybrid heating systems.

Dan Seguin 16:13

Now, Shawn, what are some factors to consider when deciding if a heat pump is the right choice for your home?

Shawn Carr 16:21

Yeah, I mean, I think like I mentioned a bit earlier, a heat pump is probably the biggest thing that a homeowner can do at home to help fight the climate crisis. On top of it, you know, if you were to do the math, and consider the upfront costs, the current incentives and the ongoing energy costs associated with operating that cold climate heat pump, you know, the choice to go with a heat pump, in most cases is going to be pretty clear. That said, picking the right heat pump for your home requires planning and requires a mechanical system contractor that can help you navigate the heat pump journey and kind of guide you through that process. And the reason I say that's important is because you know, there's a lot of different things that you need to consider in this decision. For example, do I want an air source heat pump or a ground source heat pump? You know, will it be ducted? Or a ductless? System? Can I get away with just getting a traditional air source heat pump? Or do I need a cold climate heat pump? What size of heat pump do I need? And should it be sized for the heating load or the cooling load in my home? What are the economics around purchasing and operating a heat pump in your area compared to another type of heating system? How long is it going to take to recover the added cost of a heat pump through energy cost savings? Is my jurisdiction planning to implement any restrictions on fossil fuel heating, you know? Will a heat pump even work in my home? You know, will there be any added disruption to actually install it kind of like buying a car? You know what, what brand of heat pump? Should I go with? You know what warranties are available? What maintenance is needed? So I think as you can see down, there's just you know, there's a lot to consider. And I think despite all of these considerations, my opinion is that a heat pump will almost always be the right technology choice for your home. But making the best overall choice requires advanced planning. And it really has more to do with finding a good contractor that can help you make an informed decision rather than a snap decision when something goes wrong with your current system. You know, this is a big purchase. And you're going to need to live with that decision for maybe 15 years or more. So it's important to get it right. And I would say that, you know, if you happen to be listening to this podcast, a podcast that already gives you a good start because you now know that a heat pump is another option.

Dan Seguin 19:12

How do you determine what size heat pump you need?

Dan Seguin 19:17

Well, Dan, I guess I guess in this case, I mean size does matter. I mean the size is one of the most important things to get right. You can't just walk into your basement, look at the size of your gas furnace, and assume you need an equivalent sized heat pump. It doesn't work that way. The general rules of thumb often used by the industry for sizing heating and cooling loads generally result in an oversized system which is more expensive to operate and harder to control for comfort. So this is why it's so important, in my opinion, just to work with an energy consultant or a mechanical systems contractor who understands heat pumps. And so natural resource Canada, for example, has actually developed a toolkit for Air Source Heat Pump sizing and selection. And it's to help the contractor community and the design community to determine optimal sizing needs for customers. And so the guide actually helps with defining the key Air Source Heat Pump requirements. So things like, you know, what configuration makes sense for my home ducted versus ductless? You know, what are the heating and cooling loads in my home? What are the target capacity requirements, and then what the tool does is it kind of matches up good heat pump candidates for your requirements. And the toolkit actually goes as far as providing guidelines that also help with, you know, defining the control strategy for your heat pump and the backup heating requirements. And so the federal and in fact, actually, the federal incentives that are available through the greeter homes initiative are also contingent on getting the heat distribution right. So the sizing is important. And Enercan is looking to verify that whoever worked on your project has looked at that through that lens.

Dan Seguin 21:19

Okay, something a little more technical here. Our air source and ground source heat pumps are the most common types for Canadians. And maybe you can talk to us about what are some of the differences?

Shawn Carr 21:34

Yeah, I would say that they're certainly the two most common types for Canadians. I mean, air source is by far the most common type for Canadians followed by ground source. Really, the main difference with a ground source heat pump is they actually use the ground as the source of heat in the winter, and as a reservoir to reject heat removed from the home in the summer. And so rather than the air being the heat transfer mechanism, it's actually the ground, the main advantage of ground source heat pumps is they are not subject to the extreme temperature fluctuations we get with air because the ground is a more constant temperature source throughout the year. And what that ends up ultimately doing is it actually can drive higher efficiencies. The downside to ground source heat pumps, typically is that they are more expensive to install, there's more labor involved, and they may also require landscape alterations, so they may not be suitable for for all property types, depending on whether you've got the space in the land to be able to accommodate the loops that need to get installed in the ground and so on. So, you know, that said they're, they're very efficient, which means greater energy savings and ground source, heat pumps tend to work well and in almost all climates because they're not impacted by big fluctuations in outdoor air temperature. Very interesting. Now, can heat pumps be combined with renewable energy sources like solar? For sure. I mean, absolutely. I, you know, combining a heat pump with a solar array that will, you know, reduce your electricity consumption and costs can further improve the business case over the lifecycle of the heat pump system compared to, you know, a fossil fuel energy system. And so, you know, if you're in a jurisdiction with clean electricity generation, combining that heat pump with a solar system, it will result in you not emitting any net operational greenhouse gasses. So yeah, I mean, pairing it up is, you know, is a great solution, if you can afford the capital to do it.

Dan Seguin 24:03

This is an important topic here. Now, what kind of incentives and rebates exist out there?

Shawn Carr 24:11

Yeah. Well, so this is becoming harder to keep up. But what I would say is, it really depends on where you live, as there are many different incentives, rebates, you know, grants and, and financing options that are offered by municipalities, provinces and utilities and and they vary across Canada as it relates to heat pumps. And so I'm just going to focus on our federal program because the federal government has created a national green energy program called the Canada greener homes initiative, and it actually provides grants from $125 to $5,000. For eligible home retrofits and up to six $100 towards the cost of a pre and post retrofit home energy audit, their program also offers up to $40,000 in interest free loans with a repayment term of 10 years to help you undertake home retrofits. And so with respect to heat pumps, specifically, rebates through this program range from $2,500 for ductless, air source heat pump system to $5,000 for a centrally ducted cold climate, air source, heat pump. So, you know, between the federal incentive and any additional provincial or regional incentives and the financing options that are available that are in this case, no no interest and spread over 10 years, it can make a lot of financial sense to invest in a heat pump, you know, depending on your circumstances. And so I'll also say for our local listeners here in Ottawa that the City of Ottawa is Better Homes program also offers low interest loans for home energy efficiency and carbon reducing retrofits including heat pumps.

Dan Seguin 26:13

Shawn, if memory serves me, right, you recently installed a cold climate heat pump in your home? Did you take advantage of any incentives? And did it make the project financially viable for you?

Shawn Carr 26:30

So yes, Dan, I did install a cold climate heat pump in November of last year 2022. And we did take advantage of the $5,000 federal incentive for the cold climate heat pump. In our case, there were two primary motivations for wanting a heat pump, our primary motivation was to reduce our households greenhouse gas emissions footprint, and I knew that electrifying most of our heating load using a heat pump would have the largest impact on our GHG footprint for the investment. The second motivator was the role of the federal incentive program and how that allowed us to plan the project so that I could get the system I wanted within a budget that we were comfortable with. And in our situation, what I'll say when you know, what I'll share with our listeners is like we elected to pay a bit more upfront, because we wanted a high efficiency cold climate heat pump that was backed by a good warranty, we also opted for electric backup heat rather than a high efficiency gas furnace. And I was able to do that. I had the advantage of my electrical service was able to accommodate that choice without any additional investment. And we went as far as to also investing in a more advanced control strategy, since I like data and I kind of you know, believe that they're kind of the proof is in the pudding with this stuff. And so yeah, so I'm paying close attention to you know, how much energy my heat pump compressors using the fan, the electric backup, heat, and so on. And so you know, I'll have more information to obviously share as we go through a few more heating and cooling seasons. But what I'll say is, so for our case, after applying for the federal incentive of $5,000, after we applied that to the total project cost, and actually comparing the final system costs to what it would have costed to just install another high efficiency gas furnace and a traditional air conditioning system, it only cost me about $3,000 more to get what I wanted. So I have been paying attention to my energy use over the last few months. And I would say that my energy costs are comparable to what they were before. In fact, they've actually gone down a little bit. But I've also elected to maintain my gas connection to my home, right because we have two gas fireplaces that I did not know we've elected to keep for now. And in our project case, like we, I've already noticed that my household GHG emissions have gone down by about 75%. And you know, we were able to finance the entire project over 10 years with a zero interest loan. So we're pretty happy with our decision. And what I'll say is that we've actually noticed some other intangible benefits, you know, our home is more comfortable, I would say than it was before we no longer have to worry about setting the temperature back at night and then having it ramp up before we get up. Our heat pump is designed to run at lower temperatures at lower speeds for much longer run times and they can ramp up to meet the demand in your home as it's required. So they're really kind of designed to run sort of low and slow. And for us what that meant is, you know less cold spots in different parts of our home. Warm it's kind of a constant temperature throughout. And we really noticed that difference. Also, since I completed my heat pump project, I will say that they've since announced enhanced incentives for heat pumps through our gas company. And so between the gas company and the federal program, there's actually up to $6,500 Available now. So, you know, I mean, being an early adopter cost me a bit more, but I hope others will follow.

Dan Seguin 30:29

Okay, what kind of energy savings, utility cost savings and greenhouse gas emissions reductions could be expected from the installation of a cold climate Air Source Heat Pump?

Shawn Carr 30:45

Yeah, you're probably getting tired of me saying this. But I guess again, it depends on a lot of different factors, some of which I touched on earlier. So you know, things like how old your home is, how well insulated it is, how airtight it is, you know, what type of cold climate heat pump you have, what climate zone you live in. That said, though, like getting back to, do you know, your question about what kind of energy savings and cost savings and emission reductions can you expect? What I will say is, last year natural resources Canada published a really good report that specifically assessed the cost effectiveness, energy savings in greenhouse gas emission reductions in a variety of different types of homes in different locations in Canada. And so the report, you know, sort of seeked out to answer the question that you put forward. And so what I'll do is I'll just share some of the high level findings from that report. So first of all, the report found that cold climate heat pumps generate less greenhouse gas emissions and are cheaper to operate than oil furnaces, or electric resistance heating in all parts of Canada across the board period. For the majority of Canadians, cold climate Heat pumps are going to generate less GHG emissions than gas furnaces, but it does depend on how clean the source of electricity is in your province. So that's an important consideration. But the trend is moving towards our grid getting cleaner in areas where they aren't currently clean. So I think at some point, we're going to reach a point where that statement is going to hold true right across, you know, right across Canada. The report also indicated that if you're in an all electric service scenario, meaning you're disconnected from the gas utility altogether, the results show that a cold climate heat pump system is cheaper to operate than a gas furnace in most regions of Canada. If you're like me, in a split Gas Electric scenario, meaning you've maintained the gas connection in the home for whatever reason, you know, you're you're like having a gas stove, or you're like having a gas barbecue, or you have a gas fireplace, the results showed that a cold climate heat pump system is cheaper to operate in some areas in some jurisdictions, but in other areas, overall utility costs actually increased marginally like roughly 100 to $500 a year. And I think that was the situation in provinces like Ontario, Manitoba, Alberta, and some colder regions in BC. So that's what the report found. It also highlighted that for a gas hybrid configuration, so people who opt to go for a cold climate heat pump with a gas backup furnace, that that option may be more attractive to homeowners who opt for that split gas electrical service due to the associated savings. And so all that to be said, the report lays out the expected savings from different scenarios. So I would encourage, you know, listeners to have a look if they want to understand kind of you know what the findings are in their jurisdiction for their particular use case.

Dan Seguin 33:57

Shawn, having just gone through the process, what are some of the other things people should know? If they want to consider a cold climate heat pump?

Shawn Carr 34:09

Yeah, well, I can't emphasize enough to plan early. You know, we started planning our own project at home a year in advance. And so in our case, to start the process, we had an energy audit done, which helped validate where our biggest carbon and energy impacts were and what measures we could implement to address those impacts. And the number one recommendation in the audit report we received was to consider a cold climate heat pump we did we then did some research on the incentive program requirements to understand the process for receiving the incentive and I actually got some help from one of our internal energy consultants and you know, they they have experience with heat pumps on the commercial side and they helped me model the performance of some different units and helped me with my backup heat strategy. They validated equipment sizing, you know, looked at my utility bills and really and then modeled that energy and carbon reduction savings over time based on changing energy rates. And so once we went through that process, we engaged a local contractor that had heat pump experience. And what I'll say is applying for the incentive itself is pretty straightforward. But there's a lot of demand for the program. So the process can actually take some time. The other thing I'll mention is you will also have to pay for all the project costs upfront, even if the incentives and loans are approved, so the cash isn't going to start flowing from the program until after the work is actually completed. The other piece of advice I'll provide is, don't wait until your furnace or air conditioner breaks down to think about a heat pump. You know, we had a perfectly functioning gas furnace and air conditioner that was about three quarters through its statistical life expectancy. When we started planning this project, the majority of people make H fac investment decisions at a time in crisis, such as in February, when you need heat, or in July, when you need air conditioning. And in those scenarios, you're going to be locked in to whatever system is available for another 15 years that won't deliver the benefits that a heat pump would. So I think those are just some of the things that you know, I would advise people to take into consideration.

Dan Seguin 36:29

Thanks, Shawn. Okay, let's move on. What is Canada's rate of adoption for heat pumps compared to other countries? And what would you say are the biggest barriers to adoption right now?

Shawn Carr 36:44

Yeah, good question. I mean, I've read some different statistics on adoption rates in Canada, but just ballpark what I'd say is, you know, what I've read is that there's about 750,000 air source heat pumps installed in Canada today. And by contrast, there are over 5 million homes currently heated by natural gas. And by 2030, we need more than 10% of home heating in Canada to come from heat pumps, just more than double the current levels in order to align with Canada's climate targets. And some jurisdictions will say that the percentages need to be even higher than that. I also recently read that in the US last year, annual heat pump sales rose above 4 million units for the first time, outpacing sales of gas powered furnaces. So policy incentives have certainly bolstered heat pump adoption in the US. And I think it's safe to say that the heat pump curve will take off even further. But we do need adoption to accelerate at a much faster pace if we want to meet our climate targets. To address the second part of your question, you know, barriers to adoption, I think it's a combination of things. There are barriers both on the demand side and on the supply side. So on the demand side, more education, I think, is needed. These new generation of heat pumps are far better than the versions of the past, not just in terms of efficiency, but in terms of the comfort they provide as well. I think more customer awareness is needed around the benefits of heat pumps. But the customer experience associated with adopting a heat pump can also be pretty messy. And so I think that's something that needs to be improved. And so for example, if you go to a contractor to ask about heat pumps, some don't know about heat pumps, or some don't want to sell them. And so that can result in a poor customer experience. In addition, often this engagement, as I said earlier, is done at a time of crisis, when something is broken, you need to make a quick impulsive decision. And so if a gas furnace or an air conditioner is all that's available in the shop, because that's what the supply chain and manufacturers are focused on, that's likely the only option you're going to have in that emergency situation. And so I think the thing that's frustrating about that is heat pumps are not that different from air conditioners, they have a few extra parts that make them a bit more expensive. So manufacturers are not prioritizing key pumps just yet. So they don't tend to be readily available. So you know, again, in an emergency repair situation, that's not the best time to make a logical long term decision that might lock you into 50 more years of higher carbon emissions. And so I talked earlier about the importance of sizing and selecting equipment properly and the inputs that contribute to that. I think that changes the sales and adoption cycle especially if you have to plan for pre and post home energy audits in order to be eligible for these rebates. So the price process is different. And it's important that it's well understood and that that the planning happened well in advance so that you can make the right choices along that journey without the recent availability of grants and, you know, low interest loans and tax rebates, heat pumps, in particular cold climate heat pumps, I'd say have been cost prohibitive for for most, but I think that's, that's starting to change now, with the new incentive programs that will make it easier for consumers to make the right sustainable long term decision. I think, you know, one of the other things is I also think we need to expand the workforce and build more capacity for trained installers, you know, while expanding manufacturing, which is all going to eventually further drive down the costs of heat pumps, we need to get to a point where every air conditioner that's being replaced is just automatically being substituted by a heat pump. Instead, I think that that would be the desired future, there are still manufacturing constraints and supply chain vulnerabilities. And in my case, I had to wait six months for my heat pump. And that happened to be during the pandemic when supply chains were even more constrained. But you know, whether it's six weeks or six months, that's not feasible in terms of the customer journey, when taking into consideration this technology. So I think that these are all barriers I don't have. There isn't a magic bullet. I think they all just need to be addressed simultaneously.

Dan Seguin 41:29

Now, I'm hoping you can add a bit of color here, Shawn, what would you say are some of the solutions to help overcome market constraints and accelerate adoption rates?

Shawn Carr 41:42

Yeah, good. Good question. And I think technology is always going to be an enabler, continuing to improve heat pump efficiency, and unlocking the supply chain will drive down the cost for that increased efficiency. And I think you know, that's going to be particularly important at cold temperatures, because higher efficiency at cold temperatures might mean that there is less of a need for backup heat options, or it might make those backup heat options more cost effective. And so for example, increasing the efficiency might mean not requiring as much electrical backup heat, which could alleviate having to upgrade an electrical service. Right. So that helps homeowners on the cost side, but it also helps utilities and grid planning and so on. As we add more load to the system. I think leveraging data and analytics, I think there's some opportunities there as well. If utilities can get better at predicting who will and who will not need a service upgrade. It could help with system planning. If you knew that ahead of time, we could save customers time, cost and hassle potentially, I talked earlier about just building and adopting the workforce. So thinking about how we incent H fac professionals to get additional training and educate homeowners on the benefits of heat pumps during routine service calls and make it more desirable to sell heat pumps than conventional air conditioners, we could never have enough customers. You know education. I think education drives demand and demand helps unlock supply chains. So if demand increases, or if manufacturers make heat pumps, the first option instead of an air conditioner may go a long way to help the manufacturer contractor model. And ultimately, consumers won't have to navigate all this complexity. So we have to make this an easy decision and a good customer experience for consumers. And one of the other ways to do that is to keep up with the incentives, the grants, the tax rebates, the long term low interest, no interest financing so that heat pumps just become the obvious choice and uptake continues to accelerate.

Dan Seguin 44:09

Okay. Now, what are the implications of the mass adoption of heat pumps on the electricity system?

Shawn Carr 44:18

Okay. Interesting. Well, what I'll say is that there are certainly implications particularly for heating today, we predominantly use fossil fuels, mainly natural gas to heat our homes. And so when heat pumps are installed to replace fossil fuel heat, those Heat pumps are going to increase the electricity demand in the heating season. Exactly how much demand really depends on how efficient each home is at retaining heat and the backup heat option. people happen to choose gas versus electric for example, if everyone went with electric backup heat, and we had a long, extremely cold spell a lot more peak load would be added to the system over that extreme cold period if everyone had electric backup heat. And so you know from a utility perspective, I think the approach we are taking here at hydro Ottawa is to investigate and model the implications of all types of beneficial electrification on the electricity system. So heat pumps and electric vehicles, for example, for different degrees of adoption so that we have a better understanding of the implications on grid infrastructure planning and the overall utilization of our grid. There are many factors that are going to determine what Hydro Ottawa will need to do to ensure its distribution system continues to be able to enable heat pumps for customers, such as understanding how customers use them, you know, planning our system to incorporate them and integrating other technologies like distributed energy resources and other non wire alternatives as solutions to any grid challenges.

Dan Seguin 46:10

What's the concern about heat pumps increasing demand during peak times? Are utilities preparing for this?

Shawn Carr 46:21

Yeah, so today's grid infrastructure planning is largely determined based on peak demand, you know, which currently occurs in the hottest periods of the summer months in most locations. That said, a heat pump draws a similar load to an air conditioner when it's operating in the cooling mode. So you know, if you were to replace your air conditioner with a heat pump, that's going to have a similar impact with respect to electricity use during the cooling season, like in the hot summer. On the cooling side, though, as I mentioned earlier, we're also seeing demand for air conditioning rise with more heat emergencies and extreme heat events due to climate change. So that's going to increase demand as people start installing air conditioning, or heat pumps where mechanical cooling didn't exist before in those homes. On the heating side, however, electrifying more of our heat with heat pumps might mean we could be moving towards more winter peaks in the future, as opposed to, you know, summer being a summer peaking province here in Ontario like we are today. The big question is, how much electrification? How quick. And what's it going to cost at this scale and marginal grid expansion is predictable. But when you're talking at the macro level, it's much more difficult, which is why we are planning for these different scenarios.

Dan Seguin 47:59

Now, Shawn, is it fair to say that heat pumps can contribute significantly to the electrification movement and Canada's net zero by 2050 goals?

Shawn Carr 48:12

If so, how? Dan without question, electrifying our heating and cooling systems with heat pumps, as I said earlier, are the most impactful way to reduce emissions in our homes space and water heating represents about 85% of residential GHG emissions. A heat pump for space heating alone can reduce your emissions by about 65%. And if you add a water heater in your home, you might then be 85% of the way there. So if we want to drive deeper emissions cuts as a country, a widespread switch to heat pumps could make a big difference. If uptake accelerates fast enough, this is going to require a team effort. We need stakeholders working together, not getting in the way, you know, governments, utilities, educational institutions, the workforce supply chains, manufacturers, contractors, we all need to work together to ensure that heat pumps are readily available, accessible and affordable for all Canadian households so that this becomes the default heating and cooling technology of choice in new and existing homes. So why not be proactive? Think ahead, take advantage of available incentives and consider upgrading to a GHG friendly heating technology.

Dan Seguin 49:40

Okay, now, Shawn, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Sir. Are you ready?

Shawn Carr 49:51

I'm ready, Dan.

Dan Seguin 49:52

Shawn, what are you reading right now?

Shawn Carr 49:56

I'm actually not reading a novel right now. I'm just listening to a lot of Podcasts on the energy transition Dan.

Dan Seguin 50:03

Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Maybe you do. Maybe you don't.

Shawn Carr 50:08

I would name my electric boat, One Planet, because we only got one planet. But sometimes we forget about that.

Dan Seguin 50:16

What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Shawn Carr 50:21

Well, geez, I mean it since Heat pumps are top of mind right now, I would say that this technology is pretty magical.

Dan Seguin 50:28

Okay, let's move on here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Shawn Carr 50:36

Wow, I probably would just say the social isolation we all had to experience and you know, just seeing the impact that that had on my two teenagers who were going through high school during the pandemic, which is such an important time in their development. I think that was something that was tough on them and tough on me as a parent.

Dan Seguin 51:00

Okay, a little fun here. We've all been watching a little more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?

Shawn Carr 51:10

There's been so many good TV shows lately, you know, YellowStone, House of Dragons, the Bear, White Lotus. And Your Honor, we're all great. But if I had to pick one show as the best of all time for me, it would be Seinfeld.

Dan Seguin 51:26

Lastly, Shawn, what is exciting you about our industry right now?

Shawn Carr 51:32

Well, I'd have to say it's the energy transition and everything that is happening to electrify our economy. It's complex, challenging, and a very exciting time to be at a utility. But this is really important that we get this right.

Dan Seguin 51:48

Well, Shawn, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect? Well, the best way to get me is probably by email ShawnCarr@HydroOttawa.com.

52:09

Again, thank you so much for joining me today. Hope you had a lot of fun. I did, Dan. Thanks for having me on the show. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Canada is at the forefront of the global energy transition, leading with the goal to be net zero by 2050. To get there, the electricity sector must be decarbonized by 2035, from coast-to-coast, province-to-territory. So what does that transition look like close to home? How will customers be impacted in the near future? The Ontario Energy Board’s Harneet Panesar, Chief Operating Officer, and Carolyn Calwell, Chief Corporate Services Officer & General Counsel, share their insight on thinkenergy episode 108.

Related links

Carolyn Calwell, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolyn-calwell-648318b0/

Harneet Panesar, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harneetp/

Ontario Energy Board: https://www.oeb.ca/

Engage with Us, OEB digital engagement platform: https://engagewithus.oeb.ca/

Energy Exchange: https://www.energy-exchange.net/

Adjudicative Modernization Committee: https://www.oeb.ca/stakeholder-engagement/stakeholder-engagement/adjudicative-modernization-committee

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is ThinkEnerfy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. The world is going through a major energy transition driven by a multitude of reasons. political policy, economic prosperity, environmental urgency, social change, Greta Thornburg, technological advancements and innovation to name just a few. Canada is at the forefront of the energy transition movement and certainly seen as a leader on the world stage thanks to its aggressive target, to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. Of course, the country's other closer Net Zero target is the decarbonisation of the electricity sector by 2035. emissions free electricity grids in every province, and territories across Canada in just under 12 years. For many provinces and utilities, the race to transition their energy sectors began years ago, in Ontario, where the electricity grid is already more than 90% emissions free. This was in part due to the provincial shutdown of all coal plants between 2005 and 2014. It's no longer business as usual for energy providers, how we've operated for more than 100 years is neither viable nor sustainable. It's becoming clearer and clearer that for the Net Zero future to be reality, we must go further, still eliminating and remaining emissions from our provincial grid to make wait for the electrification of our grid, our vehicles and yes, our houses and buildings. But with all of the unknowns in our evolving energy future, there needs to be a steady hand to help guide the way forward. Enter the provincial regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, energy utilities are more closely regulated than many other industries because of their unique characteristic surrounding energy supply, and delivery. So here is today's big question. Given that the electrical grid needs to be emission free by 2035, what does the energy transition look like here at home in Ontario? What can customers expect in the near future? Today, my special guests are Carolyn Calwell, Chief Corporate Service Officer and General Counsel, and Harneet Panesar, Chief Operating Officer of the Ontario Energy Board. Welcome to the show, Carolyn. And perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourselves, your background, and why you chose to join the Ontario Energy Board.

Carolyn Calwell 03:39

Thanks, Dan. I'm a lawyer by training. I started off in private practice at a big firm and then I moved into the public sector, first at the municipal level and later at the provincial level. Shortly after I began working for the Ontario Provincial Government, I got into energy when that ministry merged with the one I was hired to. And that gave me the opportunity to work on the energy file in progressively senior legal positions, while also serving some other ministries. I eventually became an assistant deputy minister at the Ministry of Energy with a broad portfolio that touched on things like distribution, transmission, agency oversight, indigenous energy policy issues, all kinds of things, lots of fun with a lot of challenging files, and always with great people to work with. So then, when the restructuring of the EOEB came along, I got excited about where the OEB was gonna go. On a personal level, I saw an opportunity to work on things from both policy and legal perspectives as the chief Corporate Services Officer and General Counsel. And I saw the chance to learn some new skills in the corporate services side of things. And I also saw an opportunity to learn the role of the regulator and get a new perspective on files I'd worked on. So most enticing though, was the opportunity to make some changes a lot like her nude, so I was thrilled by the opportunity to come over.

Harneet Panesar 04:54

Alright, thanks, Dan. So in terms of my background, maybe I'll open it up by saying you know, Today as we talk, I'm hoping to bring three different perspectives, and three different hats that I can wear. And the first one is that a utility, you know, I've spent about 14 years working for Hydro oOne, which is Ontario's largest transmission and distribution company. And I did nine different roles across the organization. And most recently, just before I left, I was Director of Strategy and Integrated Planning. My team looked after the investment plan, the overall capital that the utility was looking to spend, I had the strategy Research and Development Innovation team. And I also had a team that focused on reliability, which is a very important outcome for utility. So we focused on metrics benchmarking studies, and I had a really cool team. I'm an engineer by background. So I find this fascinating, I had a team that did post event investigations. So when equipment fields, we bring in massive cranes, pull them out, and dissect them to see what went wrong, and try and see if there's any systematic issues that we could look to solve across the system. I also had a team that looked after the modernization of the joint use portfolio, which is the use of the poles that are looking to attach other things aside from electricity, infrastructure, it could be things like fiber and telecommunication things or other things that, you know, cities and municipalities might want to attach to poles. And lastly, we also looked after secondary land use for hydro and corridors and pathways for things like parking, lots, parks, pathways, things like that. In June of 2021, I got a phone call about the opportunity at the Ontario Energy Board to join as Chief Operating Officer. And really, it was about modernizing the regulators. And the value proposition of that was huge. And it was just something I can see, it was exciting to know that that was taking place with someone who's in industry. And I saw some of the work that Susanna was doing. And so it was a no brainer. It was something that I wanted to do. And so I joined the Ontario Energy Board June of 2021. And so I'll bring the regulator perspective, obviously, in the conversation. And the third perspective is that of academia, I've been teaching energy, energy innovation, energy storage courses to Master's students, at the university level. And I think it's important when we talk about energy, we look across borders, we don't just get confined with current practices or policies or rules and regulations. Sometimes when we're trying to explore innovative ideas, we need to broaden that scope. And so I'll look to sometimes also bring in some of the academic view of what's happening in this space, too. So those are sort of three perspectives and from our background.

Dan Seguin 07:22

So, Carolyn, for those that don't know, what is the Ontario Energy Board, and what does your organization do?

Carolyn Calwell 07:33

the Ontario Energy Board, or the OE B is the independent regulator of Ontario's electricity and natural gas sectors. An important part of our mandate is to inform consumers and protect their interests with respect to prices, reliability, and quality of electricity and natural gas services. We have oversight over roughly 60% of the electricity bill, and we influence a large part of natural gas bills. We work closely with companies that work in the sector, distributors, transmitters, generators, and with associations like the Ontario Energy Association, the Electricity Distributors Association, CHEC. And of course, with the Independent Electricity System Operator and the Ministry of Energy, we're really just one piece of a much bigger puzzle.

Dan Seguin 08:13

Harneet, there's been a lot of discussion lately about the energy transition in our industry. What does that mean? Exactly? And how will the Ontario Energy Board support the transition?

Harneet Panesar 08:31

Sure, and maybe I can begin this one by even just focusing on the word energy transition, you know, it sounds nice and clear, cotton sounds like there's a linear glide path to this transition, that's going to happen. But you know, it's multifaceted. It's very complex, huge capital dollars are going to be required, it's gonna be a need for a lot of collaboration and how we move forward on it. So it's a very complex transition that's underway right now. And let me also talk to you about it. From what are some of the drivers, you know, a lot of times we talk about transition, we talk about the innovation behind it. And we also focus on what are the catalysts behind some of this change? And we often frame our conversation using four D's and I know in the industry, there's a debate whether there's three days or five, I think we've taken middle ground here, so let's go with our four D's. So the first one is Decarbonisation. You know, as you look globally, or you look federally you look even down to the consumer level, there are commitments being made and choices that are deliberately being made with regards to emissions and and a goal and targets that are being said with regards to decarbonisation. One of the sectors that I know that's going to be really impacted by this is transportation. They have the ability to make some significant changes in terms of the release of greenhouse gasses, and we're seeing a massive shift from combustion engines to EVs (electric vehicles). And so what does that mean? That means a huge need for electricity to also feed these. And maybe I'll also just take a pause and say that, you know, when I talk to other jurisdictions in Ontario, we're quite fortunate, a lot of our generation here is non-emitting, about over 90% of our generation is not emitting. And sometimes we take that for granted, you know, I talked to some of our colleagues down south, or even across the country, they can only dream to get to where we're at in the near future. We're pretty lucky to be where we are from that perspective. And so when we look at what we need to fuel these vehicles, we're going to need a grid that has the ability to supply this type of demand. So what is the EOB doing about it? There's a couple of things. The first one is we've got a couple of industry working groups that are really helping to lead the charge on making clear decisions on what is the process, you do some of this stuff. One of them is the DER connection review workgroup. And I'm excited to say that, you know, we've, we've broken up this work into tranches, and we've made some substantive releases already on changes that we've proposed to our distribution system code. These are really there to help reduce burdens, and, and really help bring on adoption of things like EVs. And I should also back up and just say, you know, when I talk about DER connections, DER stands for Distributed Energy Resources and EVs fall within that category, too. We also know that the grid will need to be able to supply this power, we have a working group called the Regional Planning Working Group that is focused on making sure that regions have what they need to be able to supply this type of energy. And that includes providing them guidance with what they need to look at when it comes to planning for that future. And how do we fill that all in? Well, we also updated our filing requirements. And so our filing requirements are really there to articulate to applicants that come forward to the Ontario Energy Board with their applications to say, look, this is what we need from you. And we've been pretty clear that we've updated our requirements to include things like electric vehicle integration, adoption, into their load forecasting and planning, we need to make sure that utilities are putting the building for the load that's required, based on the Evie adoption in the province. The next D is Digitalization. No, back in the day, our distribution system was just poles and wires, and maybe some fuses. But it's become a lot more complicated. We've deployed a lot more grid modernization in the system, a lot more innovation, and a lot more non-wires, alternatives, and different ways of investing in solving problems that the grid was having. And so what role does the Ontario Energy Board have in that? Well, number one, prudency is something that we expect utilities to take into account when they're building out their investment plans. So we're to check for prudency and make sure that the liability service quality and cost is all kept in mind. The other aspect is, you know, as we digitize the system, there are other risks that come with it, and we need to make sure we're managing them. There are new risk factors that get created from a cybersecurity perspective. And obviously, the Ontario Energy Board plays an important role. You know, we established the Cybersecurity Advisory Committee a number of years back that helped build Ontario's cybersecurity framework, which is something we expect utilities to look at, and also report annually on how they are ready and mature to respond to detect and deal with cybersecurity threats. The last two days, and maybe I'll just kind of shorten this by bringing them together. It's around decentralization and democratization. But the role of consumers is changing. And the investments and the choices that they're making are also changing. You know, the fact that you can go to a shopping mall and go pick up an Eevee, and maybe even a battery pack. These are, by definition, consumer products. Now, they're no longer utility grade investments, like Pull Top investments, switch gears, things like that, the role that they're playing is important. And so going back to our DER. Working Group, it's important that we make sure that we look at the integration of these types of consumer choices into our grid. So that's, that's maybe a roundabout way of looking at all of our structures and the innovation that's taking place and the catalysts that are fueling the energy transition there.

Dan Seguin 13:53

Carolyn, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what you believe is driving the energy transition.

Carolyn Calwell 14:00

Thanks, Dan. I see this largely the same way Harneet sees it, but I would say it maybe a little bit differently. I agree that the four Ds are the catalyst for the energy transition decarbonisation and the move to net zero emissions, the need to deal with and respond to climate change. Digitalization in my mind reflects the growing internet of things and the need for new tools and technologies that allow us to use energy differently. We've talked about decentralization and Harneet mentioned the move away from grid scale, utility planning to decentralized resources, whatever technology or weather wherever they may sit on this system. And her need also mentioned democratization about the changing expectations of customers and their relationship with energy. And in my mind, that just leads to increasing customer choice. So, you know, I think there's tremendous opportunity in all of this, and of course, tremendous challenge. But I think what's exciting is that there's broad consensus that this is a time of extreme change, and there's an imperative to actually make that change. So at the end of the day, it's pretty exciting.

Dan Seguin 15:05

Okay, our need, what does the electric future look like from an industry perspective, and from a customer perspective?

Harneet Panesar 15:15

So let me first look at the customer perspective. And maybe even the term customer, I think, is looking to evolve. As we look at energy markets around the world, we know that consumer choices and how consumers interact with their energy is changing. And even the role of consumers is changing. You know, the term prosumer is also one that is often used in which consumers aren't just consuming power, but they're producing them. And so therefore, the Pro and the prosumer. You know, that's an important aspect of how the grid may evolve. And we're certainly seeing changes in perspective, talked about decarbonisation, just a few minutes ago, that will also create a higher dependency of reliable power while managing costs. So you know, going back to our discussion around EVs, you know, nowadays, if there are reliability issues, utilities will get phone calls. And you know, that hear about power, power off situations where the lights aren't working, or ice cream is melting, or the air conditioner just isn't going. But just imagine the dependency that gets created when you know, I've got to go to work the next morning, and I couldn't go because I couldn't charge my vehicle, you know, the dependency on the grid is gonna grow. But I think there are a lot of opportunities in this type of environment. Also, you know, if Carolyn, for example, is working from home and doesn't need her vehicle, well, maybe I can take 20% of her battery, and then perhaps you're on vacation, and maybe you don't need part of your vehicle, I could maybe take 30% of your battery, you know, I've got 50% of the charge. And now I've got an opportunity to actually use my vehicle. The shifting of how sort of load and suppliers is going to be looked at on the distribution side, I think is exciting. We're seeing a lot of these micro grids around the world interact on these sort of transactive markets. But at the end of the day, you know, the value proposition for consumers is shifting look, I've now got a vehicle that has charge and lets me get to where I need to go. And both you and Carolyn have now gotten some dollars in your pockets for helping me out by supplying some of the energy that you didn't need. This is a real shift. I think that's happening from the consumer perspective and multiple different facets. From the industry perspective, I think we're going to need a lot of help and dependencies on industry to help guide us through this energy transition, you know, there's a lot of capital that is going to need to be spent, there's going to be a lot of steel that's going to be required for Transformers or pole tops, and, and even steel towers and conductors, there's a lot that's going to be required from a supply chain perspective. But there's also growth, I mean, this is an opportunity, there's a lot of growth that's going to take place in the economy for jobs. And we also know that there's gonna be industry in terms of labor markets, to be able to help supply and build the infrastructure that we're going to need for the future. And that includes maybe in adapting some of the skill sets. And I've been speaking to colleges and universities over the last year, and they've been asking, you know: what does the energy industry need in terms of the skills or the shortages? Is there an evolution of the skills that are required, and with all the transition and change that are taking place? I think the labor markets are also important to us to make sure that they're up to speed with helping us get to where we need to be. I think the last aspect maybe I'll cover off in terms of the industry is, I think there's a lot of new players that are entering the energy market, which we haven't seen traditionally, in the past. I've talked about automotive manufacturers moving away from combustion engines to electric vehicles. I think they're going even further by opening up subsidiaries focusing on energy. It's a pretty bold move for the automotive industry to be forming these massive subsidiaries. But even on the technology side, you know, we're seeing companies like Microsoft take stronger and larger positions within energy. So I think we're seeing a shift. And even in industry, I think we're seeing a lot of new players that are joining in.

Dan Seguin 18:52

Okay, so what's the greatest risk to the electricity grid, Harneet?

Harneet Panesar 18:57

So when I think about risk, and you know, I often reflect on that word, because I think when you look at risk, it usually is a reason for why adoption of things like innovation just gets repeated. And even in the energy industry, we've got a wide variety of entities that have different risk appetites. And some of them, you know, stakeholders, shareholders, customers may not be looking to them to take the greatest risk. But what we do know is that there are entities that thrive on the risk reward model. And I think it's important that we look at risk blending, we talk about risk. And why do I bring this all up? The need for collaboration is so important when we talk about moving forward in this transition. You know, in Ontario, I'd say we've got the most complex energy market in North America. I've got 800 Almost licensed entities, and I've got 60 local distribution companies fairly complex that's on the electricity. And we've also got gas distributors. It's fairly complex. So in terms of what is the one of the greatest risks I think alignment and how we move forward. The risk in this would be misalignment. You know, there's no room to backpedal, we need to collaborate and work together and make sure that there's no room to backpedal, and that we move forward collaboratively. So misalignment, I think, could be a risk, but we're making sure we're doing whatever we can. And I know there's various entities within the energy sector that are trying to make sure we're working together, you know, we're holding hands and might be taking penguin steps to make sure we don't slip here. But I think when you hold hands, we'll get a bit more firmness. And we can take bigger, bigger steps forward.

Dan Seguin 20:33

Harneet, what kinds of major investments and other considerations need to be made to deliver the energy transition to the province?

Harneet Panesar 20:43

So when I look at some of the studies that have just recently passed, the IESO released their Pathway studies. And we know that when they looked at generation and transmission, it's gonna require hundreds of billions of dollars, some fairly substantial investments on that front, the other side to this whole thing, and going back to the sort of consumer side is, you know, the tail end of the delivery of power is also going to require a huge influx of dollars. So the distribution system is going to require a lot, I will say that, you know, within our province, you know, we've got a lot of aging infrastructure that we also need to deal with. So it's not just about the forward move around the energy transition, but we also need to look at the assets that we have, the age of them, the condition of them, and really make sure that as we're spending the money, we're still holding things up. While we're also moving forward. You know, there's a lot of advancements in the system, in terms of the dollars that we've spent on the distribution system, primarily, I'd say, on deployment of capital open fields. But we're also seeing a lot of shifts on how some of that technology is now being utilized out into distribution systems. I know that, you know, we talked about dependency on the system. The minister has also asked us as part of his letter of direction to us to help provide recommendations going forward on resiliency and responsiveness and cost efficiency. And I think that's an important consideration that we need to look at when we build out capital plans and look at how we're going to build out the future. Extreme weather events are impacting our grid and energy system, the infrastructure, so the energy systems are vulnerable to that. And we need to make sure that we're resilient and we're able to respond to things like that. And lastly, you know, the other aspect around a lot of the investments that we just talked about, again, is around cybersecurity and the importance of making sure that we're ready for any of those types of issues too.

Dan Seguin 22:28

Carolyn, I read that the Ontario Energy Board's new legislated mandate is to facilitate innovation in the energy sector. How will you do that?

Carolyn Calwell 22:41

A mandate to facilitate innovation with regard to electricity was added to our legislative objectives in 2020. And this put innovation squarely in the mix for us. I thought it signaled to the energy sector a need to take new approaches to doing business, and to think about the services they provide to customers. And it signaled to the OEB that we also need to think about new approaches and new ways to do business. And so we've tried to do that through programs like our innovation sandbox, where we've encouraged local distribution companies to come to us with ideas about how they want to make change, and to test those ideas out in a safe regulatory environment where we can talk through the barriers and hurdles that they face or that they perceive to see what what really stands in their way. We've tried to do this through work like ours in our framework for energy innovation, where we asked the sector to come together to talk about distributed energy resources and how we go about dealing with the questions that they pose. What does it mean for utilities to use them? What barriers are there? So we've tried to take new approaches to having conversations about different types of innovation, and to encourage others to come to us to talk about these things. The change to our objective occurred at the same time as a restructuring of the governance of the OEB. And I think that really underscored for us our change mandate. But when we talk about innovation, our Chief Commissioner would remind me, very wisely Anderson, that our objective has always existed in balance. So innovation is never our only driver. It's one of several others, which include informing consumers and protecting their interests, promoting economic efficiency and cost effectiveness across the sector, and promoting electricity conservation and demand management. So there's a lot going on for us and for everyone in the sector in addition to innovation.

Dan Seguin 24:36

Okay, now, let's talk about the Innovation Task Force. With the report now released, where does it all go from here? Can regulation and innovation coexist and even flourish?

Carolyn Calwell 24:53

I think regulation and innovation have to coexist. We've been talking about change a lot this afternoon. I I don't think we have any choice. But to innovate. Our innovation task force was about strategy and governance, and this was an initiative by our board of directors to ask about disruptive change in the sector and its implications. And to make sure that the OEB was positioned to prepare for that change. The work involved jurisdictional scanning, looking at broad disruptive technologies and trends across the globe, and to look at what other regulators were doing about it. And that certainly provided inspiration for us. And at the same time, we curated experts working at global national and provincial levels to help us understand disruption in the sector, what they were seeing and what they were working on. So all of that informed the strategy that our Innovation Task Force adopted. And what we're trying to do with that is now map out what the OEB is doing about the energy transition. We've got a lot of projects and go and a lot of things that touch the energy transition, but don't necessarily do that directly. People need to understand how those fit together, and how they actually get at the big policy question of the day. What are we doing about climate change and about the energy transition? So what we've tried to do through our engagement with our website is map out the different projects, how they come together, and what people can expect about where they're going. If listeners haven't checked it out, I really encourage you to look at the OED "Engage with us" web page and see all that we have going on and what the next steps are across these projects. There's no shortage of work here. And we're asking a lot of people to come together to meet with us and try to make it work.

Dan Seguin 26:33

Harneet, on the topic of electric vehicles (EVs), what about supporting mass EV adoption? What can you tell us about the proposed ultra low overnight price plan for electricity? And how will it help get more EVs on the road?

Harneet Panesar 26:52

Sure. Thanks, Dan. And when we look at things like ultra low overnight price plans, I think it's also important for us to reflect on the fact that I think I'm sure he's made some good choices in terms of deploying the right capital. Over the years, you know, we sometimes take for granted that we have what is known as AMI, which is Advanced Meter Infrastructure. The fact that we have smart meters deployed across the province, is huge, because it enables us to do things like these price plans. You know, I talked about other jurisdictions, not everyone has smart meters like we do, and therefore don't have the ability to actually even implement price plans. But let me tell you why it's important and why having some of these plans is helpful. Utilities often build to meet peak demand, whenever the demand is there, they're trying to make sure that they have the infrastructure required to meet it. And by introducing pricing plans, which create the right incentives and choices that can help leave to sort of behavioral changes from a consumer perspective, that will ultimately also help utilities manage how they build their system. And what that means is they'll be able to not just build the peak but better manage peaks. You know, if we're able to utilize the system when it's not at peak or it's not fully utilized, there's available capacity generation available. There's no bottlenecks in the system. That's when we want people to use power. And so generally, you know, overnight is when the system is a little bit quieter, and we're able to actually, you know, supply a lot more power. And so for folks like myself, who have an electric vehicle, you know, I have no problems charging overnight. In fact, it's fantastic. And having the right incentives to keep people charging overnight means that we take any additional peaks on the system during the day that might occur away. And ultimately, that also means that it helps keep rates lower, because utilities don't need to invest additional capacity, because they're better able to manage when people are consuming their power. So price plans like the ultra low overnight plan is one way of curbing the behavior and incentivizing sort of the right approach on when we want people to be using the grid to feed things like their electric vehicles.

Dan Seguin 29:03

Okay, now, how does natural gas fit into the energy transition to a carbon free future in the province? What strides are being made in the natural gas sector or Harneet?

Harneet Panesar 29:18

So I think it's an important question. And it's something that we think about quite often at the Ontario Energy Board. You know, natural gas has a lot of potential to replace some of the higher emitting fossil fuel energy sources that are still being used for mostly industrial processes here in Ontario. And to maybe give you an example, you know, one of our natural gas distributors is working with steel mills, to try and replace some of their coal usage with natural gas, which would also bring down some of their greenhouse gas emissions. But you know, when you talk about Net Zero and sort of the net zero future, it's obviously going to involve things like large reductions and even eventually eliminating the GHG emissions from the US to greenhouse gasses, and that's gonna require a couple of things. It's gonna require a combination of energy conservation, some electrification, carbon capture and storage, and even a shift to use things like orangey, which is renewable natural gas, and even other new fuels like hydrogen. There's already work that's underway. Enbridge has been investing about $120 million a year. And this is really around some of the conservation programs. And we also just had a recent decision that the will be rendered. And in that we're going to increase the amounts that are going to be spent. And this is also going to include a new home energy efficiency program that's going to be offered by Enbridge gas, and it's going to be in partnership with Enercon, which is Natural Resources Canada, you know, thinking about what are the next steps, the OEB has also convened a group of experts to help identify and evaluate future opportunities for natural gas conservation. And really, finally, I just want to make sure, I know, acknowledge that, you know, millions of residential, commercial industrial consumers, we've got three and a half million gas consumers who depend on natural gas to heat their homes and run their businesses. And the OEB is going to continue to support these consumers by ensuring natural gas is delivered to them safely, reliably and responsibly.

Dan Seguin 31:14

Okay, again, this one's for you Harneet. Ontario is Canada's most populated province, can you tell us a bit about how you ensure Ontarian voices are heard, and included in your decision making?

Harneet Panesar 31:30

Yeah, so we've got 5 million electricity consumers I just mentioned, we've got three and a half natural gas consumers. So we've got a fairly large consumer base. And it's really important that we hear what Ontarians have to say. And so we've done a couple of things. And let me run you through them. The first one Carolyn, alluded to earlier, which was around making sure people could engage with us, we actually opened up a new platform and launched it, and it's called engage with us. And if you ever wanted to join it, just Google, we'd be engaged with us. And it really lays out all the various initiatives and work streams and programs that the Ontario Energy Board is undertaking. It gives timelines, it has documents, it even has a friendly smile of some of our staff that are helping lead the work along with their emails, so you can contact and reach out to us, it's one way of us making sure that we're transparent about all the work we're doing. And we're engaging with tumors, and taking in any input that they may have. So that's one way the other, the other piece that I think is really important is listening to the customers themselves. About a year ago, just shortly after I joined the Ontario Energy Board, I started a program called voice of the customer. And it was an important program for me, because one of the one of the teams that I have within my shop is responsible for the call center, they take in the calls, the emails, and the chats. And it's one thing to see all that data on a dashboard, or you know, in a PowerPoint slide deck, it's another thing to actually get on the horn and actually hear the voices of consumers, understand their sentiment, hear the emotion, hear their voices. And it was really important for me to be able to do that. And so we set up this program, and it's a monthly occurrence in which myself and my peers, the executive team, we get on the call, and we hear the voice of the customers, we hear what they're saying to us. And so that's one other way that we connect with our consumers. The other thing I'll note is that, you know, our adjudication process is a public process. And, you know, we look forward to having Ontarians participate in that we do also have consumer interest groups, part of that. But we also look to utilities to make sure that as they're building out their plans, that they're engaging with consumers, they also have a role to engage with them and make sure that they're delivering what consumers want. I'll also just put in a bit of a plug that, you know, I talked a little bit about our call center that handles the calls and emails and chats, we get almost 10,000 interactions. And these are really important data points for us. And you know, I created a part of the organization about a year ago called Operation Decision Support, to really help us make data driven decisions. And so collecting information from our calls is very vital. But the point I want to make is that we also have a chat function, which also won an award about a year, year and a half ago. And it's not fed by robots. It's actually the same agents that would also pick up your calls and also respond to emails. So the message you get is very aligned and consistent. We're very proud of, you know, our ways of being able to communicate with our consumers.

Harneet Panesar 34:19

Okay, now it's your turn, Carolyn, let's talk about the OEB's two stakeholder committees. What are the energy exchange and adjudication of the modernization committee all about?

Carolyn Calwell 34:34

Our stakeholders are critical to us. And so we've made some deliberate efforts to create structures to engage them. Energy Exchange is a form of CEOs and senior leaders. And it's really a tremendous platform where we receive advice about our priorities and direction. We've tried to use that forum, not just to talk to people but to hear from and to engage them on questions. Is that we're struggling with? What should we focus on? How should we go about our work? What matters to them, because it's important that the regulator, not just tell everybody what to do, but also listen to the sector that we work in. So this advice has been really critical for us. And it's really helped us on work, for instance, around the letter of direction that we received from the minister, as we've tried to figure out how to unpack that letter, to figure out what the priorities are within it, and how to actually deliver against it. The adjudication modernization committee is made up of regulatory experts, and they give us advice and provide feedback on all things that you indicate from rules of practice and procedure and filing requirements, to advice about intervenors. This has a specific focus to consider best practices and approaches to adjudication. And what's particularly helpful I think about this group is that they have a direct line with the Chief Commissioner. So it's a way for her to talk to stakeholders, and hear about what matters to them on what happens in the hearing room, and everything that goes around. So these are just two examples of how we engage with our stakeholders. But we value tremendously the various working groups, forums, meetings that we call that people participate in, because we know we ask a lot of people we know we demand a lot of their time and a lot of their thinking. But this is all part of the communication that we need on the two way street, so to speak. And, and we really do value everything that people give us in these various forms.

Dan Seguin 36:31

SoI'll ask you both. What is Ontario doing right, right now, that gives you hope, either provincially, or from the energy sector itself?

Carolyn Calwell 36:47

I'll jump in on though, you know, we've spent the afternoon talking about some of the challenges that the energy sector faces and that, you know, that really society faces. And these are big, big challenges, daunting tasks ahead of us. But what gives me hope is that there are some tremendously smart people in our sector and a real commitment to work together. So we're all in this together, we all have a role to play. And I truly believe that we'll make progress.

Harneet Panesar 37:19

Well, I totally agree with Carolyn. I mean, you know, this notion of collaboration coming together and working together, I think we're doing a lot of things right. From that perspective, even this podcast, you know, being here and talking to you and connecting with your listeners, hopefully, that brings a bit of a circle back to us and people reaching back out to us, we need to, you know, no one can be operating in a black box, you need to collaborate and work together. The only other thing, maybe I'll say, in terms of what we're doing what we're doing, right, and I'm going to put on my proud Canadian engineering hat on here and say, look, we've been pioneers in the energy space for decades, you know, when it came to hydroelectric generation in southern Ontario, to even the CANDU nuclear reactors, I think Canadians have been doing a lot to pioneer push the energy sector forward. And you know, advancements and technologies even like SMRs, I think is, is a proud moment for Canadians and leading the charge and how energy is now sort of delivered, you know, bringing energy sources closer to where they're being consumed. And these are game changing types of investments and technologies that, you know, Ontario is making. So definitely a lot of things, things of pride. And I think a lot of things that we're doing right, Dan,

Dan Seguin 38:23

Carolyn, and Harneet, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions.Are you ready?

Carolyn Calwell 38:33

Ready to go.

Dan Seguin 38:36

Harneet, maybe you could start us off by telling us what you're reading right now?

Harneet Panesar 38:42

Okay, well, I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that every night I read Paw Patrol and Peppa Pig for bedtime. That's not my bedtime at someone else's bedtime. But in terms of myself when I put my feet up. Now I just picked up a book. It's not new on the shelf. It's just new to me. I haven't had a chance to really go through it, but it's a book by Rupi Kaur or R-u-p-i, last names core K-A-u-R. And it's a political novel and the book is called The Sun and Her Flowers.

Dan Seguin 39:09

Okay,what about you, Carolyn?

Carolyn Calwell 39:11

I'm reading some essays from MFK. Fisher in the Art of Eating. It's fantastic. Very funny.

Dan Seguin 39:19

Okay, Carolyn, who is someone that you truly admire?

Carolyn Calwell 39:24

Retired Chief Justice Beverley McLaughlin has to top my list.

Dan Seguin 39:27

And what about you, Harneet? Who do you truly admire?

Harneet Panesar 39:32

I would say it would be my 99 year old grandfather, who was a retired Air Force engineer from the Royal Indian Air Force who lived a very colorful life full of incredible stories and journeys. And as always a source of inspiration for me.

Dan Seguin 39:51

Okay, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite movies or shows?

40:01

For me, Madness is coming up. So my TV is dedicated to women's NCAA basketball.

40:08

I'm a bit of a foodie. And I have a bit of a travel bug. So I like traveling and eating. And so there's a series called Somebody Feed Phil, which brings sort of traveling and food together and a little bit of comedy. So it's a nice casual watch. So we've been watching a lot of that.

Dan Seguin 40:23

Lastly, Harneet, what is exciting you about your industry right now?

Harneet Panesar 40:30

For me, it's changed. And, you know, maybe I'm a creature of change. It's sort of where I thrive. But it's exciting to see us move forward and in the directions we are in. So for me, change is really what's exciting. I'm proud to be part of it. I'm looking forward to what the future brings with it.

Dan Seguin 40:50

Okay, what about you, Carolyn, what's exciting you?

Carolyn Calwell 40:54

I couldn't agree with Harneet more, change is exciting. I think there's a tremendous opportunity ahead of us. I think we're gonna see the world shift, and I'm eager to be part of it.

Dan Seguin 41:04

Well, Carolyn, and Harneet. This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The Think Energy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?

Carolyn Calwell 41:20

They can find us on LinkedIn or at OEB.ca. And we're eager to hear from everybody.

Dan Seguin 41:28

Again, thank you both so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Carolyn Calwell 41:34

Thank you so much for having us.

Dan Seguin 41:38

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Trees play an important role in carbon sequestration, slowing the rise of greenhouse gas emissions as they grow. But during extreme weather, trees can bring down power lines, damage equipment, ignite fires, and cause power outages. They add a layer of complexity to maintaining a resilient power grid. In thinkenergy episode 107, Hydro Ottawa’s Nick Levac, Supervisor of Distribution Operations, and Greg Tipman, Forestry Inspector, discuss how to minimize power outages while preserving a healthy urban forest.

Related links

• Nick Levac, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklevac/
• Greg Tipman, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-tipman-b5bb73a1/
• Hydro Ottawa Tree Planting Advice [PDF]: https://static.hydroottawa.com/documents/publications/safety/tree_planting_advice-EN.pdf

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. While local and global efforts focus on achieving net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 through the electrification, or transformation of certain industries, it is also important to consider the significant role natural climate solutions can play in greening communities. Warren Buffett famously said, someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Trees make our world a beautiful place and provide us with many lasting benefits, such as shade, privacy, shelter, and food, and they contribute to our mental well being. Aside from those benefits, trees play an important role in carbon reduction, slowing the rise of GHG emissions as they grow. But if you know anything about electricity, you know that electricity and trees seldom mix. That doesn't mean they can't be good neighbors though. Across the City of Ottawa, there are an estimated 185,000 trees in proximity to Hydro Ottawa was 2800 kilometers of overhead high voltage power lines. When trees are close enough to potentially contact overhead power lines, public safety and the uninterrupted supply of electricity can be compromised. Utilities have a responsibility to ensure its electricity distribution system is safe, and that it operates reliably. Because of that, they must also ensure that their equipment can withstand extreme weather events such as high winds, and heavy snow falls and ice. broken tree branches can bring down power lines and create serious public safety concerns like damaged equipment fires and power outages. All of which can be a frustrating and costly experience for both the utility company and customers. In an urban area, the presence of trees adds an additional layer of complexity to the challenge of maintaining reliable and resilient power grids. Finding a way to minimize power outages while preserving a healthy urban tree canopy is an important goal for urban planners and utility companies. Through a combination of strategic tree planting, pruning and maintenance, as well as the use of technology and innovative solutions. It's possible to strike a balance between these two important priorities, ensuring that the city remains livable, and sustainable for years to come. Responsible tree trimming and maintenance has resulted in reducing power outages by 40%. In Ottawa alone, with extreme weather events we've witnessed in the past few years, and as the climate continues to change, the outcome will create more problems for utilities to provide reliable power to customers without extended outages. So here is today's big question. In the age of climate change and environmental responsibility, how can utility companies strike a balance between maintaining reliable service, minimizing outages and maintaining a healthy and vibrant urban forest? To help us better understand this balancing act? I've invited Nick Novak, who's the supervisor of distribution operations, and a forestry inspector Greg Tipmann. Welcome both. Greg, I'll start with you. Can you tell us a bit about your work? And what the biggest misconceptions are about tree trimming and vegetation control programs when it comes to electricity?

Greg Tipman 04:49

For sure, Dan, and just just again, thanks for having us on your podcast this morning. Getting the kind of meat potatoes my daily job encompasses: speaking with customers, addressing the vegetation concerns around power lines, auditing the contractor we use, which is Aspen tree service. There's also coordinating our jobs, our time and material jobs. So it's stuff that I look at and deal with the customer then gets delegated directly to a secondary crew to do that specific work for the customer. There's also writing of prescriptions for any work for other jobs for the customers. So specific work they want hydro Ottawa to do that's outside of our regular trim program. Some of the biggest misconceptions that I've run into is that a lot of the public thinks that our tree work is just a hack and slash that there's no thought or science put into the tree trimming that's actually going on, when, in actuality, we have a whole set of standards for proper pruning, and tree trimming of the species around the Hydra wires. And that kicks back to our working procedures or our lifeline clearing techniques. And then there's another misconception that I've run into quite a bit is that a lot of people think that for us, or for our contractor to do the tree trimming, the power has to be shut off every single time. And that's, that's not the case. We like to keep it as a very rare scenario when we do have to shut the power off. And that's usually just for a safety issue for the tree trimmers.

Dan Seguin 06:38

Okay, cool, Nick. We often say that trees and electrical wires don't mix. What types of dangerous situations can occur if they come in contact with one another? Is there a recent example you can share with us?

Nick Levac 06:58

Yeah, so I mean, first first, and mine is obviously power outages. That's kind of the first thing that we hear about when a tree comes down on our conductors. But, you know, the power outages can vary from, you know, a whole circuit right back to a substation to just localized outages in your community or along your streets. The other thing, if the tree does come down on the line, and they're in our system doesn't doesn't experience an outage, oftentimes, trees can catch on fire. So we've had, we've had examples over the years where trees are resting on a line, nobody notices it, and then eventually it'll catch on fire, which obviously can cause other issues. And especially in the summertime with dry conditions. If that does come down to the ground, it could, you know, start forest fires, which, unfortunately, our neighbors in the south and us have experienced in California and stuff. So but there was there was one larger outage and I think it was a start in November November 2, whereas a spruce tree that was quite a bit away from the line did fail, and it came down and took down to two conductors out at the end of my road, I believe it was and it caused a large outage. We were in a sense, those are almost better to have, because it's easier to find that tree and where the problem is. And we can get crews out to fix it in a quick manner. But that's probably the most recent one that we've had that had a major outage and a big impact to our system.

Dan Seguin 08:32

So we're clear, Nick, what are the guidelines that determine if tree trimming or vegetation management near powerlines is required? What does sufficient clearance from an electrical equipment look like?

Nick Levac 08:46

Yeah, so like Greg mentioned in the first question there we have our rivers going through our system, and we're looking at at standards that we trim to the cities divided up into about 30 vegetation management zones. And they're divided into either a two or three year trim cycle, which means you'll see our versus your backyard, you're on the streets, trimming out to our guidelines, either every second year, third year. Our main goal, there's a couple of them. But our main goal when we're trimming to our standards that we have, is when we come back and either in two or three years, the vegetation that we trimmed out is still three feet away. There's different zones that we have from 10 feet back to the conductor or the live overhead wire, and from the wire out to three feet is called the restricted zone. And as I mentioned that that's where we do not want the vegetation to get into because if we if it does get in there creates a bunch of different problems for our for our tree arborist to go in there. And as Greg mentioned, outages is the last thing we want to do when we're trimming trees. And if that veg does get into that restricted zone, increased outages for trimming sometimes An option that we have to look at what we're trying to avoid. So that's, that's kind of our main goal. We look at the species a tree, and how much it would grow in a year. And as the arborist comes through, they're going to trim back that many feet. So if we have a fast growing species that grows a three or four feet a year, and we're going to be back in two years, we're going to trim that back three feet times two, plus the additional three feet. So we're looking at about a 10 foot trim on that.

Dan Seguin 10:29

Nick, pruning, and especially removal of interfering trees often caused controversy. In an age of climate change and environmental responsibility. What do you tell folks that object to or have concerns about the important work you do to help keep the lights on entry safe?

Nick Levac 10:53

Yeah, that's a great question. We, you know, our I think you hit the last word there, and your question kind of hits on our main goal of everything that we do here at Hydro is safety. So, not only are we looking out for the publics safety, ensuring that trees are coming down on the line and staying energized. But we're also looking out for worker safety. So as we're going through, we tried to do preventative maintenance, so to speak. So very much like you get your oil changed in a car, or you put your winter tires on this time of year, we're trying to trim trees away from the lines to make sure they don't come in contact that avoids outages, unplanned outages, especially because, you know, it's one thing to get a phone call to say, Hey, your power is going to be out because we're doing preventative maintenance, whether it's tree trimming, or upgrading the electrical system. It's another thing to wake up at two o'clock in the morning after like, so the heat off and everything and it's unexpected, and you're trying to get your kids ready, you're at home or whatever. So preventative maintenance is the big thing. And we try to educate our customers that what we're doing out there is really just to make sure that we can decrease outages and especially those unplanned outages. The other thing that we look at when we're pruning trees is the tree health. And I know Greg's gonna get into this, I think a little bit later on. But just looking at the species of a tree and how we trimmed them to make sure that the health of the tree is also a huge interest for our births that are up there. They're all certified trained arborists, with some extra training on the electrical side, because obviously, we're trimming around live electrical lines. But when they get up into a tree, they're looking at the health of the tree. There's a lot of stuff once they get up into the canopy of the tree that they noticed that you can't see from the ground. So they're taking into account and they're taking out any Deadwood or anything in there and and try to not only like I mentioned before getting those clearances that we need for the electrical side, but also trying to enhance the tree growth away from our lines and lucky that the health of the tree, but take any dead wood or anything out of it.

Dan Seguin 12:55

So back to you, Greg, I know you trim trees on public property that are within three meters of an overhead line. But what about on private property? trees near utility lines inherently carry serious risk to property owners who may be injured or even killed when working near powerlines? What are homeowners responsible for? And when should they call the utility to arrange for their help? Like a planned outage? Basically, what do homeowners need to know?

Greg Tipman 13:33

Yeah, Dan, so when you're speaking about the kind of responsibilities on vegetation maintenance, Hydro Ottawa is responsible for the pole the pole wire vegetation maintenance. The area around the high voltage wire that Hydro trims is part of our responsibility is 10 feet for the primary which is usually the very top wire running pole, as well as about a three foot clearance around our low voltage or secondary wires. And again, that's the pole, the pole wires. Just I want to make that bold statement. That's Hydros responsibility as part of our maintenance package. Kind of like Nick was touching up on and that that happens pending what grid what year, you know, two to three years Central, within kind of the city core versus the outer rural areas. If a customer is looking to have work done on their tree which is growing out of their private property, and it's near our overhead wires, hydro comes in free charge we get it clear 10 feet 10 feet back, debris would stay on site, and then it would be the homeowners responsibility to either cut the tree down themselves hire private tree contractor or if they wanted, they could also hire hydro Ottawa, do our work for others program and we would write them out a full And we'll treat quote, and they would, they would pay an additional cost for that work that's outside of our regular maintenance scope. Now in regards to the, the wires running pole to house service wire, or if you're in a rural area, and it's a private primary wire, there's a couple options that they have for having those what those wires that vegetation trimmed out, they can either hire a private tree contractor, and hydro Ottawa, our service department provides one free disconnect a year for any tree work a little bit more legwork for the customer or the contractor to do, but it's an entirely viable option. The second option is they can again hire hydro, to trim out their service wire, to whatever specs we normally recommend. It's a low voltage secondary wire, to have about a three foot clearance on it, they want us to go with that option. I myself would write them out a formal tree, quote, and have all the details. proof of payment forehand would be had. And then we would schedule the customer an exact date. And they would essentially have the work done to what the quote was that they're paying for the work to be done and, and go from there. It's quite effective. We've gotten a lot of feedback from the customers about having their service wire trimmed down and there's been a lot of good things to have come from having us on site. And just doing it all, not having to worry about them having to organize an outage on their house. So it's, it's been a good go.

Dan Seguin 16:39

Here's another question for you, Greg. When planting a young sapling, it's often difficult to imagine that in a few years, like 10 years, it could have a significant impact on the landscape with an expanding canopy. As a homeowner, or a landscaper, if you are planting a new tree, how important is it to contact your utility service provider to discuss your plans? Do you have any tree planting advice? Or some good resources on what to plant and where?

Greg Tipman 17:18

Yes, yes. So basically, Hydro Ottawa has a really good source on our internet page. Basically, just type in Google out "Hydro Ottawa tree planting advice," and it'll take you right to a pamphlet that's been put on the internet. And it has everything for suggestions of where the tree should be planted, what type of species is it? How tall will it grow? How wide will the canopy grow? How many feet back from an overhead wire should be planted? It has a breakdown of species names. What soils are their best to be planted in? You know, like I said, they're their typical growth structure in relation to overhead wires. And there's also advice given on planting around underground wires, which a lot of people you know, you don't see them, you don't really think they're there. But most people just see the green box, the ground transformer, if you will. But where are the wires going? What? Which way? Can I plant and whatnot. So it's a really great resource that has a lot of information, a lot of diagrams. Definitely check it out. And then another great option would be just put a call in have myself or Nick show up. And, you know, we can tell you, you know, basically where the what, what's the lay of the land? What is your yard showing you? You know, are there other trees in the neighborhood or in your yard? You can get a very good look just from seeing what's out there, what to expect. And then and then go from there.

Dan Seguin 19:08

Okay, Nick, this next question might be in your wheelhouse. A power outage occurs when there's direct contact between two conducting lines face to face, or by providing a path for electricity to travel to the ground. There are several other ways that vegetation trees in particular, can cause power outages, wondering if you could expand on the causes and how utilities and folks in your profession mitigate that.

Nick Levac 19:40

Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting question. It's obviously something we look at all the time. And that's our biggest goal within our department is to mitigate those outages and I actually came from a background in the lines department as a power line maintainer for 10 years and then and swung over and got into working with the veg management program. And, you know, I'd say it's a really good partnership that we have right now, not only with Greg and our other utility forestry inspectors, but along with our contractor Aspen who's doing the work for us. And, you know, that's a constant conversation that we're having week in, week out. And not only are we reviewing any outages that might have occurred the week before and trying to follow up on those to see why those power outages occurred and how we can hopefully prevent them from reoccurring. But within the system itself, the electrical system, we have, it's very much like your house where it's set up where we have different circuits all the way through the city. And within each circuit, we have different fusing, the further you get away from the substation. So the fusion coordination can really help out if you have a tree that falls at the very end of that circuit. We have the fusion set up in a way that it's only going to go back to the next device downstream. And if everything is working properly, that fuse will open up and it'll really shrink the size of that outage rather than going all the way back to the substation. So if you can imagine if you have 1000 customers on a circuit, and you had 10, different fuses all the way down, and that last one blows, you're gonna only affect 100 people instead of 1000 people. Also, within our system, we have devices called reclosers. So I'm sure many, many, many listeners have had their lights flicker on and off two or three times. And then unfortunately, after that third flicker, the power does stay off permanently. That means that there's a bigger issue on the line and that reclosure could self clear. So those devices are there. For momentary outages, when they see a spike in amperage, they'll open up the circuit, and give time for that tree or whatever that foreign interference is to clear itself. And then close back in with the hopes that once it closes back in that that power will stay on. If it senses that it's still there, it'll open back up again. Hopefully allow it to clear a little bit longer closed back in again, and hopefully the second time's a charm. Unfortunately, sometimes that doesn't work. And then you experienced that outage, the last kind of protection in the whole stream protection devices is that circuit breaker back at the station. That's kind of the worst case if we see a circuit open up. That means that there's a major problem. Usually, like you mentioned there, there's a face to face kind of issue where two conductors have slapped together. And that's kind of what causes the biggest outage, that's when we know we have a large problem. And the other issue with that is because our circuits are so long, some of them are you know, in the downtown core where we have more substations, it's a little bit easier to find because you know, the circuit might only be say a kilometer or two long, but if you get out into the rural Orleans, Kanata, down south though Manotick, Nepean you can have, you know, 10-15-20 kilometers a line. So if your circuit breaker and your station opens up, that means that somewhere between your station at the end of the line is your problem. So their fault indicators and stuff on your line that can help pinpoint it. But it definitely can make it more challenging when you're starting back at your substation now having to patrol 2020 kilometers a line versus if that fuse opens at the very end of your line you okay, it's the last section within that line. The other thing that can really help us out is the customers in the field. So a lot of times we'll get calls in and it's great to get that information and Hyderabad was very active on social media and that that definitely helps if, if a customer sees a problem if they see a line down if they see a bright blue flash if they hear alert, loud bang, you know, first and foremost, let us know don't ever approach down wire stay away even trees that could be leaning up against a wire. And I mentioned this before just because the trees against the wire if that wire still energizes that could potentially energize that tree. So we want to make sure we stay back, you know, stay back 10 meters from that tree, stay back 10 meters from that electrical line because you don't know if it's on or if it's still alive. So your safety is first and foremost, call 911. If there's any you know, immediate hazard fire police can come in and assist, they will get a hold of our system offers right away and direct us to that. Or if it's something that's, you know, a little bit less than you think that Hydros should know, we have lots of different social media channels you can reach out on and let us know. And that really does help because that information does find its way down to the crews in the fields and it helps us get to the outage and find that problem that's causing the outage that much quicker.

Dan Seguin 24:57

In addition to being a qualified arborist Greg, you also have extensive knowledge about electricity. Can you talk about this dual role and special qualifications that you have? How dangerous is your job? And do you work around live electricity at high voltage?

Greg Tipman 25:17

Yeah, Dan. So just a little background on my schooling and qualifications. So I did my forestry technologist diploma at Algonquin, which is a two year program. And then from there, I moved out to BC to work on some really big trees and wildlife out there. I morphed into the utility side of tree work. And that's where I went and did my apprenticeship program. From there, you need approximately 4000 hours just to qualify, the program is a two year program, you accumulate about about 6000 hours around of live line clearing, working around the wires, you learn how electricity all the bases, electricity, how it works, how to identify the equipment, that coupled with your actual tree work in the tree, the the tools, special tools you'll be using, so dielectrically tools, how to operate bucket trucks, so on and so forth, rigging big chunks of wood down and trees how to do it safely. All the while in close proximity to these overhead high voltage wires. It's very, very dangerous. I mean, you couple your, you know, 3040 5060 feet up hanging by ropes, you're using a chainsaw to cut wood. Plus you have a live line that's, you know, five, six feet away from you. So it's definitely very dangerous. But the schooling, the on the job training that you get just, you know, old hands, showing you the techniques, the up to date, safety standards, and whatnot, it makes your comfort level something that you would never, you know, come natural to you become second nature. So it's definitely a process, it's definitely building confidence over time. And then, you know, taking classes, learning, whether it's through the International Society of Arboriculture on the tree side of things for tree health, you know, what are the tree species? Biology pests? You know, a lot of times customers will ask, you know, why is my tree dying? Why is it declining? A lot of times people will think, oh, it's Hydro, you trimmed the tree incorrectly? Well, no, it's, you know, a pest infestation or you did some landscaping or whatnot, the roots have been killed and whatnot. So it's learning all that, that, you know, information and coupling it and pairing it with the electrical side of things that it really makes for a harmonious job and, you know, a great aspect to keep learning, there's always new information, new research coming out on on trees and the electrical side of things. You know, and then just just basically, you know, having the resources also at hydro Ottawa, it makes that partnership that much better for getting the work done and done safely.

Dan Seguin 28:41

Okay, so, Greg, I've seen some amazing footage of folks in your profession climbing pretty high in trees. So besides not having a fear of heights. What's that, like? And what's the favorite thing about your job? Have you ever surprised some birds or even squirrels? Or have surprised you?

Greg Tipman 29:06

Yeah, so kind of, like I was touching on there. I mean, the fear of heights is not was never really the big, big deal. It was more trusting your gear. Knowing that, you know, a 10-12 millimeter diameter rope is going to hold you and your gear. You know, it's going to hold, you know, wood swinging around and whatnot, it's not going to break off, you know that your knots have been tied correctly. They're not going to come undone, you're gonna fall to your death and get injured or whatnot. Those were kind of the first fears to really get over. But once you get that , it's practice. The more you do it, the more you get comfortable doing it, the more you feel safe and secure. I've definitely had some weird, interesting animal encounters while working in the trees. I've had birds land on my head and stay there. Are while working. I've had raccoons, you know, climb out hollows. I've had bats, you know, fly out from underneath bark. But probably the scariest wasn't in the tree yet, but we're doing some ground slash BC and probably 10-12 feet away, a black bear just goes running right by. And yeah, it was exhilarating, but it was done in a flash and yeah, nothing more. But you know, it definitely, you know, could have been a different interesting situation had the bear been a, you know, an angry bear, if you will or whatnot. But, you know, if we're, yeah, for the most part, it's the job. You get to see nature all the time. And there's always something great to see. Animal wise.

Dan Seguin 30:50

Okay, both. Are you ready to tag team and close us off with some rapid fire questions? Greg, I'm going to start with you. What's your favorite tree?

Greg Tipman 31:01

Can I give you four Dan? So Eastern White Pine, the monkey puzzle tree, Giant Sequoia, and the Charlie Brown Christmas tree.

Dan Seguin 31:12

Nick, let's move on to you. What is one thing you can't live without?

Nick Levac 31:17

That's an easy one. It's got to be my family. My two girls at home, my lovely wife, and probably a good cup of coffee or a nice americano in the morning just to get things going.

Dan Seguin 31:28

Greg, what habit or hobby? Have you picked up during shelter in place?

Greg Tipman 31:37

Probably flying and crashing my drone, I need more practice.

Dan Seguin 31:48

Okay, next one is for you, Nick. If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Nick Levac 31:56

You know what, I think never to age physically. Only in wisdom. The body's getting a little bit older. And every time I go out and try to play hockey or do something now I wake up a little bit sore in the morning so I would keep my physical health. Maybe back when I was in my 20s. That would be amazing.

Dan Seguin 32:16

What about you, Greg, what would your superpower be?

Greg Tipman 32:20

Maybe just unlimited superpowers.

Dan Seguin 32:25

Okay, back to you, Nick. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him?

Nick Levac 32:33

You know, I probably try to let them in on a couple of neat world events that we're going to take place between then and then when they're my age now, and just tell him to go there and make sure he's present. And no matter what the cost is. Sometimes you only get what's a once in a lifetime chance to see things and make sure he gets there to experience that life.

Dan Seguin 32:58

And lastly, this one is for the both of you. What do you currently find most interesting in your sector? Greg?

Greg Tipman 33:08

It's really the day to day change, there's always a different challenge that's coming up, you're always in a different location dealing with different people. So it's never, you know, a month a monotonous job, it's always fluid, there's always something new.

Dan Seguin 33:26

What about you, Nick?

Nick Levac 33:28

What excites me the most coming down the pipe, I think it’s the technology that hopefully we're going to be exposed to. I mean, Greg mentioned crashing his drone, but you know, just even stuff like that, and us being able to fly over headlines and really take a good snapshot of what that vegetation looks like within our city. And and what we can do to kind of have a good mix between you know, maintaining that Urban Canopy in Ottawa, and then also at the same time keeping the electricity on and if we can use different types of technology that's coming down the pipe to find a balance between the two that we can get out and and proactively trim trees because we know exactly where they are. And also keep that Urban Canopy for the customers here in Ottawa. I think there's an interesting mix coming down, how we can leverage that technology to our advantage.

Dan Seguin 34:17

Nick, and Greg, we reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. I hope you had a lot of fun. And again, thank you so much for joining me today. Cheers.

Greg Tipman 34:33

Thanks again for having us, Dan.

Nick Levac 34:35

Yes, thank you, Dan.

Dan Seguin 34:38

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening! And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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To address climate change, we must be united, working together towards a common goal. But differing perspectives have created a complex and polarized debate: renewable energy versus fossil fuel versus nuclear power. These discussions require an open mind and constructive dialogue to find solutions that work for all stakeholders. In thinkenergy episode 106, Dr. Monica Gattinger, li, unpacks how we can build a stronger way forward for Canada – together.

Related links

Positive Energy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/positive-energy

Positive Energy, Twitter: https://twitter.com/uOttawa_Energy

The Institute for Science, Society and Policy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/issp

The Institute for Science, Society and Policy, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-science-society-and-policy/

Monica Gattinger, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monica-gattinger-748a6a42/

Monica Gattinger, Twitter: https://twitter.com/MonicaGattinger

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16130 HYD: February thinkenergy Podcast – Ep 106: Positive Energy

Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry,

Dan Seguin 00:28

Everyone, welcome back. Energy and climate change are important topics that have been increasingly discussed in recent years due to the significant impact they have on the environment, the economy, and society as a whole. The effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels, increased frequency of extreme weather events, and loss of biodiversity are widely recognized by the scientific community. However, there are different views on the best ways to address these issues, particularly in terms of energy policy, and the way we live, work, consume and travel. While some advocate for the transition to renewable energy sources, others still argue for the continued use of fossil fuels or the development of other technologies such as nuclear energy.

Dan Seguin 01:27

These differing perspectives have created a complex and often polarized debate. It is important to approach these discussions with an open mind, consider the evidence and engage in constructive dialogue to find common ground and solutions that work for all stakeholders. We've often heard that working together and respecting different opinions are essential for effective collaboration and innovation. For climate change, it's more important than ever, that we come together to work towards a common goal. So here is today's big question. When it comes to energy, and climate, are we able to consider diverse perspectives so we can identify blind spots, and challenge assumptions that will ultimately lead to a stronger way forward for Canada. Today, my special guest is Dr. Monica Gattinger. She's the director of the Institute for Science, Society and Policy. She's a full professor at the School of Political Studies and founder Chair of Positive Energy at the University of Ottawa. Monica, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners a bit about yourself, and how the positive energy program that you found it at the University of Ottawa came to be?

Monica Gattinger 02:55

Thanks, happy to. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa. And I've been a student of energy, Dan it kind of pains me to say it, for but going on three decades now. And I guess about maybe 10 years ago or so around 2014-2015, you might remember at that time, there was a lot of contentiousness in the energy sector, particularly around pipeline development. And I think, you know, I felt a certain frustration that I'd go to energy conferences, and we'd all kind of get concerned about this. And, you know, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air, but what was happening, and then walk away, come back at the next conference to do the same thing. So the idea that I had was to create an initiative that would convene leaders who were concerned about these issues of public confidence and energy decision making, convening them together to try to identify what some of the key challenges are. And then I would undertake a research team, some solution focused, applied academic research to actually feed that process on an ongoing basis. So it's, you know, not just conferences, we walk away conferences, we walk away, it's, let's put in place a process to actually excuse me to actually get to some solution seeking on the challenges.

Dan Seguin 04:11

Okay, now, I have to ask you, because I love the name, given how polarizing energy has been for a number of years now, is the name meant to have a double meaning?

Monica Gattinger 04:20

Yes, it is. You are exactly right. That was you know, at the time when we created that name, that was precisely what we were trying to do, which is let's have some positive discussions about energy. I think the other thing I'd point to is, you know, for us, and it's always been the case that energy is all energy. So yes, at the time when we created positive energy, you know, what was in the news was big pipelines. But many of these issues and the challenges that we address with our work, apply to all energy sources, whether it's, you know, electricity, oil and gas at the upstream downstream, midstream sectors, so we really wanted to try to foster a pan Canadian approach on on the issues with energy as the core.

Dan Seguin 05:10

Monica, in one of your research reports, you acknowledge that division is eroding public trust and preventing progress. Why is that happening? Is it a lack of understanding around climate change and Canada's goals? Or is it more about the method or policies in place to get there?

Monica Gattinger 05:32

That's a super important question, Dan. And it's really at the heart of what we're aiming to do with positive energy. So if you look at where we're at now, on energy and climate, there's, you know, a tremendous global move towards net zero. And, of course, this is going to mean just a wholesale transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. So, you know, there are bound to be disagreements of division over how we go about doing that. And I think, you know, one of the crucial things about this energy transition in comparison to previous energy transitions, is that it's going to be largely policy driven, like, yes, there will be market developments, but policy is going to be playing such an important role. So to your question, you know, a lot of this is around the methods or the policies that we're going to be putting in place when it comes to energy transition. And I think our work really starts from the, you know, the very strong belief that if we don't have public confidence in government decision making over energy and climate, we're not going to be able to make ongoing forward progress on either energy or, or climate objectives. And for us, public confidence is, you know, the confidence of people, whether as citizens, as consumers as community members, but it's also the confidence of investors, right, we know that we're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy infrastructure, without the investor confidence to make that happen, we're not going to be able to to, you know, achieve the emissions reductions that are envisioned envisaged. So for us that whole question of division, and how do we address division, where it exists, is just fundamental to our efforts.

Dan Seguin 07:17

Okay. Now, do you think we lack a shared positive vision as Canadians on the future? And how we get there together? How do we build bridges? Is this what you're trying to achieve with positive energy?

Monica Gattinger 07:32

Yeah, I'd say yes or no, on the shared vision. So you know, we do a lot of public opinion, polling researchers, as you might know, Dan, and and, you know, uniformly Canadian scores, government's very poorly, on whether they are succeeding and developing a shared vision for Canada's energy future. That said, you know, I don't see it all as a whole bad news, there is remarkable alignment of views among Canadians on many aspects of the country's energy future, I think sometimes what, what we tend to hear, you know, are the voices in political debates and in the media, and in the end in the media, that are on you know, sort of opposite ends of a spectrum, if you look at, you know, sort of where Canadians are at, in general, you know, in terms of the majority opinions, they're often much more aligned than what you might think, by listening to some of our political debates or reading the media. So I think what we're trying to do at positive energies is a few things. One is, you know, to really try to see just how divided we are, and a lot of our work has brought forward that we're not as divided as we might think, on some of these issues. And the second thing we're trying to do is provide a forum for people who do want to work constructively and positively to chart a positive path forward, provide that forum for those to do that, and then to undertake academic research to support that. And one of the things that we found is that there's just a tremendous appetite for that kind of initiative.

Dan Seguin 09:05

Okay, Monica, hoping you can shed some light on this next item. What do you mean, when you see that Canada is at a log jam when it comes to charting our energy future?

Monica Gattinger 09:19

That's a great question. Because, you know, when I think about when we wrote that, that was a few that were written a few years ago. So it kind of answers that question a little bit differently now than I would have if you'd asked it at the time that we wrote it. So if you think about it, cast your mind back to 2015. And the creation between the federal government and the provinces of the pan Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change, there was a lot of alignment between the federal government and provinces and territories around climate change. And then we had some electoral turnover and new governments coming into power at the provincial level and the round sort of the 2018 period and that relative peace between federal and provincial governments began to be overturned. And so that, you know, the log jam that we were referring to was really written at that period of time, we were seeing a lot of fractiousness between the federal government and provincial governments. And don't get me wrong, we still see, we still see some of that, but certainly not to the level we did at that time. So I think it over the last few years, we've seen much greater alignment emerge in the country, notably around the concept of net zero, which we think is really, really, really constructive progress. I think, where we see some of the challenges now is moving to implementation, right? How do we move to reduce emissions and actually roll up our sleeves and do it in a way that will build and maintain public confidence? That's, you know, that's very much where we're casting our efforts these days.

Dan Seguin 10:50

Okay, cool. And what are some of the weaknesses you found in energy decision making?

Monica Gattinger 10:56

So I think there are a few that I would point to, you know, one would be and our current work is zeroing in on this more than we have in the past, is the whole question of energy security. And by that what, what we're referring to is the reliability and affordability and availability of energy. So in the absence, I mean, Dan, you know, you work at hydro Ottawa, so you would know, when you know, when the lights go out. People are nervous, it really captures their attention. I'll put it that way. And so in the absence of, you know, reliable, affordable energy, it's going to be very difficult to make ongoing progress on emissions reductions. So that whole question of energy security is one of the what I'd say is sort of the weaknesses in the frame that policymakers are often bringing to, to energy decision making, I think a second area that really is going to need some attention is our policy and regulatory frameworks for energy project decision making. I mean, we know, let's say, you know, take electrification, if we're going to be moving forward on electrification in a meaningful way. Most reasonable estimates assume we're going to need to double or triple our generating capacity in the country, and all the infrastructure transmission, local distribution, all that goes along with that, that's going to require building a whole lot of infrastructure. And so there's definitely some weaknesses there in our existing frameworks for doing that. And then the third area I'd point to is collaboration between governments. And so yes, federal and provincial, but it's also increasingly, municipal governments as well need to be collaborating with other levels of government and indigenous governments too, so bringing together that collaboration across jurisdictions is an area where there's a lot of a lot of strength that we're going to need to be building.

Dan Seguin 12:47

Okay, Monica, following up on this theme, positive energy has conducted a number of public opinion surveys since 2015, to gauge Canadian support for the country's climate commitments and their views on our international credibility. What are some surprises? And have you seen any change in attitudes since you started the surveys?

Monica Gattinger 13:11

Yeah, we've done a lot of work. We have a fantastic partnership with Nanos research, we've been working with Nick Nanos and the Nanos team since 2015, we've done lots of public opinion polling along the way. And so I think, you know, one of the things that has surprised me the most about this, and maybe it's just my own naivete as as a, you know, an academic researcher, but is just the pragmatism of Canadians, you know, many of the questions that we put to Canadians come back with very pragmatic and balanced responses. So there seems to be that recognition on the part of, of Canadians of the need to take a balanced approach to energy and climate issues. So I'll give you just a couple of quick examples. So we've been tracking Canadians level of climate ambition, we started doing this actually, during the pandemic. And so we asked people on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is now the worst time and 10 is the best time to take action on climate, you know, what, what, how would you score things? And, you know, the majority of Canadians, you know, score things strongly, they want to see climate action. We've seen some weakening of that, notably, as we've got some weakening of the economic conditions that has weakened people's appetite. So that's sort of one thing we, you know, Canadians want climate action. On the second. Second thing I'd point to is, we've done a lot of tracking as well, around Canadians views on the importance of oil and gas to Canada's current economy and to its future economy. And so, you know, there again, we see what you might expect, which is people there's a recognition that oil and gas is important to Canada's current economy. Views tend to drop off a little bit in terms of its importance to the future economy, but much stronger than I would have anticipated in terms of the level of, you know, opinions when it comes to the strength, or when it comes to the importance, apologies of oil and gas and Canada's current and future economy. One thing I'm just going to, you know, like heads up, we've got a study coming out very shortly. And we've seen a jump in Canadians' views around the importance of oil and gas to the country's current and future economy. And we're thinking that this might be because of economic conditions having changed, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine, just creating a different kind of an environment for Canadians opinions, then the last thing I point to that, for me is kind of been surprising, but in a not always fun way is that we've also been tracking Canadians views on government's performance on energy and climate issues. And then it doesn't matter what aspect of government performance we ask people about, they always score it like so weak, like weak to the point, when we first asked this question, I'm like, Nick, do people you know, just kind of score governments weekly? And so this is just, you know, typical stuff. He's like, No, Monica, that's really low scores. So I think there's a recognition there on the part of Canadians that governments have a lot of work to do, that this is difficult stuff, to to to take on. But that we're going to need to if we're going to be able to achieve some of our climate ambition in the country.

Dan Seguin 16:27

Now, let's dig into the research. First, can you tell us who you're convening and bringing together to conduct your research and who your intended audience is? Who do you want to influence?

Monica Gattinger 16:42

Yeah, so we're bringing together leaders, from business, from government and from government, we're referring to both policymakers and regulatory agencies, leaders from indigenous organizations, from civil society organizations, like environmental NGOs, and then academics, like myself. And our aim is really with the research and convening that we're undertaking is to inform decision making, you know, so the key audience for this from our perspective as government decision makers, whether policymakers or regulators at, you know, at at any level of government, really, more broadly, in our we're working very closely with the energy and climate community at large. So our intended audience isn't, you know, sort of the general public per se, although I like to think that we're sort of working on their behalf in terms of a lot of the work, a lot of the work that we're doing

Dan Seguin 17:37

Great stuff, Monica, now, let's talk about your first multi year research phase, public confidence in energy decision making. Why is it important to start here?

Monica Gattinger 17:49

Yeah, for us, this was really crucial to try to dig into and understand why we are facing these challenges to public confidence in decision making, for energy and climate issues. And, you know, believe it or not, we spent about two years trying to dig into that problem and identify all of its different, all of its different components. So we published a study in that first phase of research called system under stress, where we were focusing on energy decision making, and the need to inform, sorry, to reform energy decision making in that study, and this was sort of how we unpack this challenge of public confidence. We use this metaphor of elephants, horses, and sitting ducks. And so the elephants were elephants in the room. So at that time, one of the big issues that was, you know, informing or leading to challenges in public confidence was that there was a belief on the part of quite a few folks that governments were taking insufficient action on climate change. And as a result of that, not having a forum, you know, to move forward action on climate change, many folks who were concerned about that or raising those issues in regulatory processes for individual energy projects, right? And if your regulators say, well, that's not part of my mandate. So what would we do with this, and that led to some challenges. Another Elephant, you know, another elephant in the room at that time was reconciliation with indigenous peoples, that there was insufficient action on the part, you know, on the, you know, in the minds of many around reconciliation with indigenous peoples and so, you know, some of the big challenges that indigenous communities were facing, whether missing, murdered indigenous women, you know, potable drinking water, economic conditions, a whole host of challenges were also being raised in the context of individual energy project decision making. The process for lack of other forums to take those concerns to another elephant in the room was cumulative effects. Right. So communities were concerned not necessarily about a particular project, but about the project that came before the project, who was going to come after it, and what would be the cumulative effects on their community. So that was sort of the elephant, the elephant in the room policy gaps, basically, that governments needed to take more action to fulfill. When it came to the horses, we were referring to horses that had left the barn. So in other words, changes in society and the broader, you know, context, where you're not going to turn the clock back on them. So things like, you know, people expect, rightly, to have a say, in decisions that affect them. They're not different, you know, they don't defer the way they used to, to governments and to decision makers, they expect to have a say in decisions that affect them. And some of our decision making processes weren't frankly, providing sufficient opportunities for them to be heard. Technological change, right, you know, you're not going to turn the clock back on social media. And that also has fundamentally changed the context in terms of how information circulates capacities for misinformation, disinformation, etc. And so when against this backdrop, you know, who are the sitting ducks? Well, the sitting ducks are government decision makers, right? They're trying to deal with all of these challenges. We got a lot of traction with that report, Dan, because I think it sort of helped people to, you know, frame up, what is the nature of the challenge that we're facing when it comes to public confidence, which of course, then begins to open up solution spaces?

Dan Seguin 21:40

Okay. What did you uncover when it came to the role of local communities?

Monica Gattinger 21:46

Yeah, we did a major study on this, it was some of this was happening concurrently. But we did a major study in collaboration with the Canada West Foundation, where we did some very deep dive case study research on half a dozen energy projects across the country with the aim of identifying drivers of local community satisfaction or dissatisfaction with energy project, decision making processes. So these were projects, you know, wind, gas plants, hydro facilities, transmission lines, pipelines, shale development, like a whole variety of different kinds of projects in different locations across the country. And so there are a few things I'd point to there in terms of some of the key findings. Probably the first and foremost is the importance of early and meaningful consultation and engagement. And I feel kind of silly saying that, because it's like, we have been saying this for years, how important this is. But yet, you know, there are still proponents that aren't necessarily, you know, aren't necessarily getting out there early and in a meaningful way, to communities. I think the second thing, and it's related, that I'd point to is the importance of information, like yes, communities want information about a project. But it's an what we refer to in the report is a necessary but insufficient condition, right, just saying, you know, here's the project, here's the information, this should change your mind, if you've got any concerns, really and truly is not is not enough, you need that meaningful engagement, you need to hear from people. And in some instances, this is a third thing I'd point to. In some instances, you know, it's important to draw the distinction between what a community's interests are so it could be, you know, economic development, jobs, etc, but also what their values are. And there may be some projects that even though they might advance the community's interests, in terms of jobs, etc, if they run counter to community values, and what they want to see developed in their community, it will be very challenging to foster support for up for a project. Another thing, we found just a couple more things that point to here. Another thing we found that I think is going to be increasingly important as we move on net zero and emissions reductions, oftentimes at the community level, the key environmental issue is local environmental impacts, as opposed to global climate change impacts. So even if you've got a project that's going to be good for the climate, if it's got local environmental impacts from the perspective of a community, those concerns may actually trump the good that could be done more broadly when it comes to the climate. And so I guess the last thing I'd point to is, you know, just the importance of process, having a decision making process in which people can have faith. And so, you know, we did a lot of work right in communities. So you'd have community members say, like, I can get behind a decision that I don't agree with, you know, if my perspective is at the end of the day, we're heard in a meaningful way and were considered in a meaningful way. But governments decided to go in a different direction. I can, you know, I can live with that as long as I felt that the process was one that was legitimate. So that process piece is so important at the community level.

Dan Seguin 25:02

Okay, now, what were some of the biggest takeaways from your project? Monica? Were you surprised by any of the data?

Monica Gattinger 25:09

Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I probably go back to the local versus global impacts piece, I think that is a circle, we're gonna have to figure out how to square for lack of a better a better metaphor here going forward, because many of the projects that we're going to need in the years ahead in terms of emissions reductions, they are going to have local environmental impacts. You know, and it doesn't take long to think about examples of that, right. So think about mining for critical minerals, think about transmission infrastructure, think I mean, on and on and on. And so thinking through how do we, you know, be respectful of local communities ensure we've got processes in place that that they can have faith in and ensure that local environmental impacts are mitigated in a meaningful fashion? And frankly, no has to be an option sometimes, right? There are some projects that have to receive a no of all projects are greenlighted, that puts the entire system into question in people's minds.

Dan Seguin 26:15

Okay, Monica, your second research phase just concluded Canada's energy future in an age of climate change. What challenges and opportunities were you focused on? And what did you uncover?

Monica Gattinger 26:28

That's a big question, Dan. So maybe just a couple of things I'll point to. The first is to say that, you know, for that particular project, because it was or that phase because it got underway at a time where there was quite a lot of fractiousness between the federal and provincial governments. We took on the topic of polarization, in that phase of the research to try to understand, you know, just how polarized are we, when it comes to energy and climate issues? And, and the, you know, the, the, the fortunate answer was that we're not as polarized as we might think, on some of these issues. So those areas where, you know, people's opinions are truly at opposite ends of a spectrum, they've got their heels dug in, the opinions are very hardened and crystallized, they're not willing to move, you know, there's, those are very few and far between a lot more of the division that we see back to that word division that we talked about earlier, Dan, it so those are opinions that are maybe a little bit more malleable to change, where you can potentially bring people together and have a constructive, constructive conversation to move things forward. So that the polarization, the polarization work, I think was really important to try to, you know, shine a light empirically on just how polarized are we, one thing that did come out of that work, though, that I think is really important to note is that a lot of the polarization that we see is along partisan lines. And so it's really important to have and create non-partisan forums for people to come together because partisan polarization on energy and climate issues can be quite challenging. So we looked at polarization, we also looked at, we continued our work around sort of roles and responsibilities of different government authorities in energy and climate decision making, we did a really big project around energy regulators with, you know, again, thinking about how important they are going to be in the future when it comes to energy project proposals and evaluating energy project proposals. And I think, you know, what came out of that work is just the importance of creating regulatory frameworks that are functional, right, they're going to enable us to get to a decision. But that is adaptable. You know, we know there are going to be new energy sources, new technologies we're going to need to be adapting our frameworks over time. And that are, you know, absolutely this crucial element and of legitimate that they are that people have confidence in those decision making processes. But it's not just about regulators. It's also about the broader policy context within which they work, you know, the need for regulatory agencies to be operating in the context of clear policy frameworks. You know, for there to be a good understanding between policymakers and regulators they have their respective roles when it comes to things like energy project, energy project approvals. The third area that we focused on in this most recent phase of research was models of and limits to consensus building, right. So if we do have division, how do we try to foster consensus and we recognize we're not going to get to you know, everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya there. This is politics, there will be, there will be divisions. But we did a lot of work on this whole concept of what are some of the models that can be utilized to foster consensus? What are some of the limits to those models? And the sort of bottom line of that research is that progress is possible when it comes to consensus building, but it's not easy. It's a hard one, it takes time, it takes a lot of thoughtful preparation and care to put in place processes that will drive towards positive outcomes.

Dan Seguin 30:32

Okay. Now, there were five case studies that came out of this phase intended to identify what works when it comes to public confidence in decision making. What are some of the highlights?

Monica Gattinger 30:44

Yeah, and this kind of picks up on the question of consensus building and models of and limits to consensus building. So we undertook a number of case studies of different initiatives that have been tried in Canada to try to foster consensus. So we looked, for example, at the Alberta climate leadership plan, we looked at the Eco fiscal commission, we looked at the National roundtable on the environment of the economy, we looked at the just transition Task Force on the coal fired power phase out. So this was a mixture of federal provincial, government, non government, current past initiatives. And there are a few things that I point to that, you know, came out of that work. The first is that there are no silver bullets. I mean, Boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were easy answers to these really tough questions, but there are not easy answers to these really tough questions. They, you know, it really is important to, to have kind of a multi pronged approach. And more than one approach, there isn't going to be one single initiative that's going to solve all of these challenges. But process matters process really matters. So who is involved? How are decisions taken? You know, is the process seen as legitimate? That's really, you know, absolutely the place to start with any of these processes around consensus building. Again, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right. So you can have in place a process that is designed to, you know, bring forward recommendations to the government on policy. But if people don't have trust in the information that's produced by that initiative, you've got a problem, right? So I think the Eco fiscal commission was really interesting in that, in that case, because it brought together an advisory board, that included representation from a variety of different political parties, the aim being to see if these folks can come together, and you know, work together and have confidence in this process, then others are more likely to have confidence in the information that's produced on the studies that are produced by by in that case, the ecofiscal, commission, there are a lot of relationships between different processes. So for example, you know, if you think about the development of a carbon price in Canada, you know, yes, that's where the Eco fiscal commission was focusing a lot of its efforts. But the Alberta climate leadership plan, in part paved the way towards the development of a federal price on carbon, because of the work that was done in the province to put in place a carbon pricing a carbon pricing scheme. And then the final thing, and this isn't something that people always like to hear, unfortunately, is that building consensus takes time. And it's something that is, as we know, in the current context with, you know, with climate change is something that we don't necessarily have the luxury of having. So it's how do you sort of hold those two things in your hand at the same time, and I often use the example of a carbon tax, having a carbon tax in Canada is a massive achievement for the country. But it took probably a decade or more to get there. And that's only one small in the big scheme of things policy tool. So you know, no silver bullets. It takes time, but it is possible. So progress is possible, but it's hard won.

Dan Seguin 34:12

Okay, now, this was fascinating. Monica, you identified two realities of energy and environmental leaders in Canada, when it comes to Canada's energy transition. Maybe you can unpack that for us just a bit more.

Monica Gattinger 34:29

Yeah, for sure. So this was a really, really neat study, one of the things that we found in our work, because we convene when we are, you know, very close to a lot of energy and environmental leaders. One of the things that we were finding is that this word transition could have elements to it that were kind of polarizing. And so for some folks, it was something that actually drove them away from our table rather than bringing them to our table. So being academics, we thought, well, let's do a study on this. What do people think transition is? What does it mean to them? Why are we running into these issues? And I have to credit our former Research Director, Dr. Marissa Beck, this was her idea, it was her study, she did an absolutely tremendous job. So she went out there and spoke with over 40 energy and environmental leaders across the country. And, and what, you know, what emerged from that work was that there were really two different realities that people inhabited, either, you know, sort of in whole, or in part, when it comes to transition. And we didn't name the realities, we just stated them, you know, in a very, in a very sort of fact based way. And they differed in terms of scope, and pace of change. And, you know, so in one of the realities, you know, the, the idea is that we're going to have a more measured pace of change, it's going to be driven by market developments, some policy developments, we're going to in the future have, you know, a diverse energy portfolio that's going to include, you know, a variety of different energy sources, yes, in different proportions than we currently have them. But you know, that oil and gas, for instance, is going to be a part of the future. So that's sort of one reality, the other reality grounded in a much more, you know, ambitious, rapid, need for change, quickly grounded in science, much stronger role for government in terms of setting out the policy framework, much greater attention to the need to, notably to phase down oil and gas and in particular oil. And so you can imagine if you've got folks inhabiting these different realities, it is difficult for them to come together, because they're often talking past. They're often talking past one another. And, and so we didn't necessarily have any solutions for this proposed in that particular, in that particular study. I think our work really does try to do some convening around those issues. But what it really did in this particular study resonated so well, with folks in the Energy and Environment communities, we had people saying, like you just nailed it. Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. And so you would have folks say, you know, well, the reality is, or we just need an honest conversation. But what the reality meant to them, what an honest conversation would mean to them was, was something completely different than folks inhabiting the other reality. And so these are the kinds of challenges, you know, Dan, that we, we hope to shed light on with our work. And we also hope to also address the research and convening as well.

Dan Seguin 37:50

Now, your third phase has just begun. What can you tell us so far, about strengthening public confidence on the road to net zero and the areas you're looking to cover in your research over the next several years?

Monica Gattinger 38:07

Yeah, no, that's a great opportunity to share this with you, Dan. Thanks. Thanks so much. So yeah, I mean, if our first phase was focused on public confidence, and kind of the here and now, second phase was Canada's energy future in an age of climate change, this phase is the longest term, longest term phase yet in terms of looking at net zero. And looking at 2050. We've got four areas that we're focusing in on in terms of this research, that really build in many ways on the work that we've done to date, we've been talking so far data about the importance of regulation, and having energy project decision making systems that are going to foster and support the kind of change to our energy systems that we're going to need. That's a big, a big area for us, one of the areas as well, that we're going to start to be getting into an in a more meaningful way, is downstream regulation as well, because with the, you know, with the growing attention to electrification, this is going to mean, you know, greater focus to what are our regulatory frameworks for energy delivery, whether it's in power markets, or in gas markets. And we think that there's, there's something that we will have to offer there as well, in terms of our work. So that's on the regulatory front. Another topic that for us, we think is really important is this whole question of energy security. And by that, you know, again, this isn't just about what's happening in global energy markets, it's what's happening domestically as well in terms of the need of the need to have reliable and affordable energy to ensure that we don't, you know, take one step forward and then two steps back on emissions reductions. So it's really very much about solving for Yes, emissions reductions and affordable reliable energy simultaneously, which in our observation is something that you know, has has not always been on the radar of policymakers, I think the energy system has just done such a great job of providing reliable, affordable energy that it's not always thought about. And yet, you know, if we're going to be transforming our energy systems, it better be front and center. Or we could really run into some challenges in terms of public confidence on the road ahead. The third area we're zeroing in on is intergovernmental collaboration. We are a federation, we are a federation with increasing roles and authority for indigenous governments, as well. So it's really about how do we make sure we've got good collaboration between federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous and municipal governments on the road ahead. And again, it's that kind of collaboration, collaboration piece. And then finally, we're going to continue with the public opinion survey research. And that work generally aims to support the other streams of research. So we're asking questions that relate to some of the broader work that we're doing. Cool. Okay.

Dan Seguin 41:07

I know you're going to tell me it's early Monica, but based on what the data and public service have shown over these many years, is Net Zero. resonating with people?

Monica Gattinger 41:19

Well, interestingly, so last June, we held a conference to mark the, you know, the conclusion of phase two and the launch of phase three. And we did some public opinion survey research going into that conference, including some questions around net zero. So we asked people if they had heard about net zero. And then we asked them, you know, the dreaded open ended question, and what does it mean to you? So it's one thing to have heard about, it's another thing to, you know, be asked to define it. And I was really surprised at like, the majority, like a strong majority of people had heard of net zero. And when asked to define it provided a definition that was pretty on target. So people, you know, I don't know if that means it's resonating with people. But they have definitely absorbed that this concept, and that this is something that, you know, is in policymakers is in policymakers minds. I think the other thing I would note, though, is you know, there's netzero, and then there's just emissions reductions writ large, the work that we've done around Canadian support for emissions reductions, climate change, policy, etc, shows just time and again, Canadians want to see this, they want to see emissions reductions, they want to see it done in a balanced way back to the pragmatic response I was giving earlier. But they're definitely, definitely committed to that.

Dan Seguin 42:43

Okay, now, when do you expect your first publication will be shared?

Monica Gattinger 42:47

So we've got our quarterly public opinion surveys that come out every few months. We actually have some, we're just finalizing a study right now that will be published very, very shortly. In terms of the research publications, we've got two underway right now, that should be published within the next number of months. One is looking at regulation for project decision making, and in particular, this whole question of timelines. So if you talk with folks, you know, in industry and in government, right now, they'll say, Well, we got to build all this stuff. But can we build it fast enough? And so that's actually the title of the project? Can we build it out fast enough? And we're focusing on what are some of the issues when it comes to regulatory frameworks for project decision making. So that's one study that should be coming out within the next few months. And then a second one, it's republication of a study that we completed for the Canadian Gas Association, electricity Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but this time last year, which was looking at regulation of energy delivery systems and power and gas markets, you're looking at international case studies to try to identify like, how are other countries grappling with the challenges of netzero in their power and gas markets. So we're going to be updating and republishing that study. We're in the process of doing that right now, that should be coming out in the next few months. And the case studies that we're looking at in that research are Western Australia, the United Kingdom, which as you might imagine, is a very interesting case study given the challenges that they've had on their power and gas markets. And New York State.

Dan Seguin 44:25

Just wondering here, is there anything you can tell us about your appointment to the province's New Energy Transition panel, its objectives and how you feel this could move the energy conversation forward in Ontario.

Monica Gattinger 44:39

Thanks for the question. I mean, I'm, you know, let's be honest, I'm an energy geek. And so it is just an unbelievable honor to have been appointed to the panel. This for me, is a dream appointment. I'm just so so so enthused about it. I'm not going to be able to speak on behalf of the panel. It's too Early in our work, but I will just share, you know, in my personal capacity now that I think the panel does have the capacity or the potential to be really quite important to the province's energy future. So if you think about, you know, the research that we've been doing at positive energy, the importance of informed decision making on the part of governments to recognize all of the strengths, limitations, consequences, intended or otherwise, of their decisions on energy and climate. So the panel, I think, has a great opportunity to help inform decision making. But as I've said, on a couple of occasions, today, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right process matters. And, you know, the panel, again, has the potential to be a very important process in terms of its engagement, and meaningful engagement with stakeholders, with indigenous partners, with all those who are interested in the province's energy future. So, you know, a couple of just additional things I would say. One is that the panel's focus in its mandate on long term energy planning, I think, I think is very important, because we're gonna need to plan and think through the long term more than we ever have before in terms of our energy systems when it comes to emissions reductions. I think the other thing, you know, I would lastly, but not leastly, I would recognize, you know, the importance of affordability and reliability. You know, yes, undertaking emissions reductions, but ensuring it's done in a reliable and affordable way. That enables, you know, economic competitiveness and the like. And that's something that, you know, that this government, the Ontario government, brings to the table, which I think is extremely important and will be crucial for the future.

Dan Seguin 46:53

Okay, Monica. Now, if you could speak to everyone in Canada, what would you want people to know, that you think is not widely known? Or understood?

Monica Gattinger 47:06

Yeah, there are a few things I would point to there. I think one would be the scale of the transformation that we're contemplating with netzero. I mean, if you take electrification, just as an example, you know, about only about 20% of and use energy, I mean, I'm telling you this, Dan, you know, all this stuff, but only about 20%. The venue's energy, you know, is currently accounted for by electricity. If we're looking to scale that up, you know, depending on what model you look at, but let's say you're looking to scale that up to you know, 80%, that's four times what it where it currently stands, this is a massive, massive transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. And I think that's one area where, you know, there isn't necessarily as much understanding as there could be in terms of the scale. Like, the second thing that I would love to get out there is that, you know, there's often a view that industry is, you know, dragging its heels, it's, you know, putting in place roadblocks, it's acting as a barrier. That's not what I see, in our engagements with folks in industry across the country, and a whole variety of different energy, different segments of the energy sector. Industry is there. What, you know, the real challenge now is kind of how do we move from the what, to the how, and foster an environment that will foster the kind of change that the companies are really looking to make. And then the third area that I would point to is reconciliation with indigenous peoples. We haven't spoken about that too much this morning. But that's one of the areas over the last number of years where there has just been such a fundamental change in the way industry, and indigenous communities and governments are working together. I think what we often see in you know, in the newspapers in the media is instances of conflict, you know, for obvious reasons, that's, that's, you know, what the media is going to be drawn to, but there are so many examples of just unbelievably constructive, meaningful partnerships between indigenous communities and industry. And I think that's something that you know, that that really is, is just a wonderful, wonderful change over the last few years.

Dan Seguin 49:24

Lastly, Monica, wemalways end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I'm hoping you say you're ready.

Monica Gattinger 49:33

Okay, I'm ready. I'll do my best.

Monica Gattinger 49:36

Here we go.What are you reading right now?

Monica Gattinger 49:39

I am reading The Heart Goes Last by Margaret Atwood. You would think you know, during a global pandemic, you wouldn't read dystopian fiction, but that's what I'm doing. Terrific. Terrific book. by Margaret Atwood.

Dan Seguin 49:52

Okay, Monica, what would you name your boat? If you had one or maybe you do have one?

Monica Gattinger 49:58

I do not have one but if I did I think I would name it Smooth Sailing, because that's what I'd want to be doing when I was on my boat.

Dan Seguin 50:05

Okay, who is someone that you really admire?

Monica Gattinger 50:09

Oh, without question. My parents. You know, we've had some pretty tragic things happen in my family and they have, you know, continued to be positive soldier on, be great grandparents to my kids, I don't know how they do it, I admire them to the moon and back, as they say,

Dan Seguin 50:26

Okay, moving on, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witness? That's a

Monica Gattinger 50:33

tough one, I think I'd say I spent a lot of time outdoors. We have dogs. So I'm often out with the dogs, I ride horses. So I'm often out horseback riding anything in nature, there are so many magical moments where you see, you know, ways that animals are interacting with one another or things happening. Things happening in the, you know, in the plant environment and ecosystem that to me are just magical, and remind me of just how little we know about the world around us.

Dan Seguin 51:06

Okay, Monica, that's cool. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,

Monica Gattinger 51:13

My family has been extremely fortunate during the pandemic. So yeah, it feels almost kind of trite to talk about challenges. I think if there's one thing that I would point to, though, it's the last time it's the last time notably, in my family's case, between my sons and their grandparents. You know, my youngest son used to go to his grandparents house every day after school, they'd feed him snacks, he'd come home, that's gone. They've you know, they've they're missing him growing into a young man, that's, that's been really, really tough. I mean, it's a first world problem. I, you know, we really have been fortunate. But that last time is, unfortunately, and we're just not going to get that back.

Dan Seguin 51:58

Now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite shows are movie

Monica Gattinger 52:06

I could talk for hours about this. But if I had to just pick one, the whole Yellowstone series, I am just crazy for that series, you know, because I horseback ride anything that involves horses and ranches. And my own family history, you know, involves homesteading. Just that whole series Yellowstone 1883 1923. And he was talking about magic down the fact that all of that comes out of Taylor Sheridan's brain that fast I have, I don't understand at all. But I really enjoy watching it. That series is just phenomenal.

Dan Seguin 52:45

Lastly, Monica, what is exciting you about your industry right now.

Monica Gattinger 52:50

I think it's the people who are now on the let's roll up our sleeves face. And let's figure out how to know how to get this done. There's the waterfront of challenges seems endless, but the fact that that there's much more alignment among industry, government, civil society, you know, take your pick indigenous organizations, etc, about ensuring that we're reducing emissions, and, you know, the desire to work together to figure out how, to me is really exciting.

Dan Seguin 53:20

Well, Monica, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect or find out more?

Monica Gattinger 53:35

We have a website that you will be welcomed to, to reach out to just type into Google "University of Ottawa positive energy" and it should pop up for you. People are welcome to reach out to me personally, you know, again, easy to find me on the Internet, email addresses and the like. I'd be happy to hear from people.

Dan Seguin 53:55

Again. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.

Monica Gattinger 53:59

This was great. Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate the opportunity.

Monica Gattinger 54:03

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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With goals like net zero by 2050, Canada is a leader in the energy transition movement. But another deadline looms – decarbonization of the electricity sector by 2035. It’s 82% emissions-free now, but big challenges remain. Multiple grids governed by individual provinces and territories, regional resources, politics and economics. In thinkenergy episode 105, Moe Kabbara, Vice President of The Transition Accelerator, unpacks the value of an integrated electricity grid and the Electrifying Canada initiative.

Related links

• The Transition Accelerator: https://transitionaccelerator.ca/
• The Transition Accelerator, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/transition-accelerator/
• The Transition Accelerator, Twitter: https://twitter.com/CanAccelerator
• Electrifying Canada: https://transitionaccelerator.ca/electrifying-canada/
• Moe Kabbara, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moekabbara/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Meaning Canada's long term climate goals will require a profound transformation of contemporary systems in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. One of these major transitions we're seeing around the world is with the energy sector. Canada is certainly at the forefront of the energy transition movement, and seen as a leader on the world stage thanks to its targets to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. But there's another much closer interim deadline looming with respect to Canada's Net Zero targets. And that's the decarbonisation of Canada's entire electricity sector by 2035. If we don't achieve that, it's very unlikely we will meet our 2050 Climate goal. In fact, many experts believe there is no pathway to net zero without zero emission electricity. Although Canada's electricity sector is currently at 2% emission free today, removing the remaining fossil fuels from our system is still an ambitious goal to achieve in under 12 years, mainly because we don't have one national electricity grid, we have multiple electricity grids overseen by their respective province, or territory. To further complicate matters, different regions in Canada have different resources. Some are water rich, while others are rich in oil and gas. And of course, there is also reasonable politics and economics at play. As we move forward in the new world of electrification, from transportation to how we heat and cool our homes and businesses, it's believed that we will need a lot more electricity than currently produced. So here's today's big question. What is it going to take to achieve the federal government's target to have 100% emission free electricity by 2035? Today, my special guest is Mo Kibera, Vice President of the transition accelerator, a national not for profit organization that is working to advance Canada's 2050 climate targets in multiple sectors. Our guest oversees a new initiative called electrifying Canada. And we're going to talk about that and the need for an integrated electricity grid in Canada. Moe, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself and how the transition accelerator came to be.

Moe Kibera 03:26

Yeah, so my name is Moe Kibera. I'm the Vice President at the transition accelerator. My background has been in clean energy and climate for you know, over a decade now started working in sort of applied research context on renewables and energy storage. I had a thermal energy storage startup in Atlantic Canada, and that I worked in energy efficiency consulting, I worked in Investment Attraction for automotive sector and batteries, specifically related to EVs, that I also I went back into consulting worked on various projects when it comes to like electricity, electric vehicles, battery supply chain. And, yeah, I've been with the accelerator, you know, for since last year, and, you know, the accelerator came to be around 2019, really, with the idea or the basic philosophy that, but it emphasizes that, you know, LinkedIn climate concerns, the broader efforts to really improve society and your disruptive and transformative changes that are going to be reshaping the world around us. So it's really based on the idea of transition. And the idea of transition is not necessarily just about the technology itself, but it's about all the different political, social, economic aspects that come with it. So really, the methodology that the Accelerator has established which is basically methodology or theory of pain of how do we actually get you know, We get to transition out of the systems that we need to bring, you know, new systems that we need to bring forward. And it really starts with examining the issue. So that's really starting with our first kind of approach is understanding. So understanding what are the current systems that we use? How did they come to be, and, and basically, understand the forces that are disrupting the way that we do things. The second approach is called developing or working with stakeholders to co develop the pathways for the future. The number three is analyzing those pathways, and assessing things like costs and benefits and trade offs and public accessibility barriers and bottlenecks. And then the fourth thing, which is how do we get things into the real world, which is advancing, and we've been working on kind of putting off consortia and alliances, that actually are supposed to be implementing the pathways. So it's not about we're not like we like to say we're not a think tank, we're a do tank. So that's kind of our approach and possibly overall.

Moe Kibera 06:13

Dan Seguin 06:13

Okay, how about we dive into your newly launched initiative, electrifying Canada? What is it all about?

Moe Kibera 06:22

Yeah, I mean, the idea is really going to be that electrifying Canada is an initiative that brings together stakeholders, from industry, labor, indigenous groups, civil society, all have a vested interest in accelerating and use electrification, and the build out of a netzero electricity system. And basically, our vision is that we see that widespread electrification can enable an affordable and resilient, clean energy system that powers Canada's economy and kind of gives us a competitive edge when it comes to industrial activities as well. So really, the idea there is that we know electrification is going to be a critical path to get to zero. We can talk about all the other solutions like hydrogen and r&g and the role that they can play, which is great, but what we really know right now is that if occasion is ready to go solution that we need to start on regardless. So it's really about trying to get different stakeholders together, the right voices, the key voices that are needed for action. And that includes, you know, the major TriCity users. So the we needed we needed voice, you know that companies that need electricity or or sectors like transportation and buildings that are going to be in need of electricity to decarbonize, but also includes the supply side of the compensation. So the utilities and the developers and the regulators, that's the we can build it voice. And then the finance community that is looking for investment opportunities in the face, you can finance this, for the bank, the pension fund is the financial institution. But then also bringing into overtime, NGOs, think tanks, the you know, that are working on advancing solutions in the space. So it's really, um, you can think of it as an umbrella initiative, trying to bring everybody that's working on this topic under its wings. And we've we've successfully done that we have 28 partners, that includes all the major players in this in the country working on electrification. And then the sort of activities that we're going to be looking at are research analysis, public outreach, engagement, developing policy frameworks. So we are going to be going across the country this month, starting next week, until April, we're going to be visiting eight cities. So we're going to actually meet people in person where they need them where they're at both physically and metaphorically speaking. And that's going to be the first step to establish the form, which is working as, you know, not just a one off conversation, but as an extended form, to have collaboration, ordination and partnerships. So we're very excited about this initiative. And, yeah, very quickly, we're at/

Dan Seguin 09:22

Mo, can you remind us what some of Canada's key target dates are?

Moe Kibera 09:27

Yeah, I mean, just the very, very big picture. Canada has committed to reaching that zero cross architecture by 2050. And then when we look at some of the sectoral target, we have a target to get to a net zero electricity grid by 2030 500%. New sales of vehicles being zero emissions by 2035 60% of new vehicles being zero emissions by 2030. building sector sector oil contribution Uh, you know, readmission reduction 40% reduction by 2030. So a lot of these different targets when it comes to decarbonisation in the building sector and transportation sector and electricity system, all going to require a huge effort today, and two, that we need to get, get get working on right away. So these are very, you know, ambitious target, and we definitely support them. But that means that we really need to understand the barriers and advanced solutions very quickly, because we're going to meet the target, we're going to be, you know, we need everybody to come on board, and to really have a concrete strategic strategic approach to the widespread electrification and the build out of electricity systems.

Dan Seguin 10:52

Okay, for a follow up question Mo. What does electrification mean? And are these targets driving it?

Moe Kibera 11:00

Yeah, so I mean, I think that really, if you think about it, electrification is basically moving away from technology, that use of your, that coal, oil or natural gas, with technology, they use electricity as a form of energy. So depending on, you know, how you generate electricity, electrification can be zero emission, right. So the idea is that, if I have electricity coming from solar, and I use that solar, they use electricity to write to charge my Eevee, then my Eevee is Eurovision both at the source and also in terms of the upstream emissions. But if I have gasoline in my vehicle, there's really no net zero compatible pathway to getting like I can continue on in improving the emission standards of the vehicle. But at the end of the day, I'm limited by laws of thermodynamics, that I'm always going to have emissions and, and low efficiency for internal combustion engines. So electrification is really using electricity as a source of energy, as opposed to fossil fuels or molecule fuels. And in basically the notion of like, well, we can get electrons that have molecules of fuel. And if we can get the electrons to be centralized in terms of production, and clean electricity, then we can use that to decarbonize our sectors. So a target that I mentioned, they're not necessarily prescriptive, exactly how to decarbonize. So zero emission vehicles include things like, like fuel cell vehicles, and it just, you know, like hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. But the clearest pathway right now, in terms of what are some of the ready to go solutions that we can implement today would be electrification. So that's why those targets are driving the need to electrify because it is something that we can get started right away and technology is available. So electric vehicles have ramped up significantly over the last two years, battery costs went down by 90%. In the last 10 years. Heat pumps are also available and ready to go. decarbonize our buildings. So I think that's really what's driving expectations, because it's a very clear path to get started on right now.

Dan Seguin 13:34

So will electrification mean that we will need more electricity? And if so, how much more?

Moe Kibera 13:43

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. Definitely, it's going to mean that we're, we're going to need more electricity, because we're going to be, you know, displacing fossil fuel use without with with another source of energy, which is electricity. So that come from somewhere. debate. And it's not very clear that part of what we're doing now with electron now that we're doing a meta analysis of all the studies that have been published over the last 18 months to look at, what is the expected demand growth, you know, just a quick scan of literature and Canadian analysis, and I've been done, you know, we're looking at like, maybe doubling or activity grid, and some people say, we're going to triple it. I'm not too concerned about whether it's double or triple right now. I mean, obviously, a very big difference. But what's clear that we need to get started on the pathway over the next few years is going to be the same whether it's double or triple, that we need to really understand what are what are some of the near term opportunity, the near term challenges. So we're gonna need a lot more electricity, but also, some, some of the need for electricity is not going to materialize overnight, right. So people are like, well, we can't electrify a petition because we don't have enough electricity, but transcription transitioning our petition stuff T V doesn't happen overnight. It's something that is as follows sort of a technology diffusion theory of, you know, it's not every neighbor, every vehicle in one neighborhood is going to become a view overnight and plug in. So the idea is that we can actually plan for the certifications like electricity demand. And things like energy efficiency and demand side management and demand response and distributed energy refer to all of the all of these different measures, and be very, very critical to reduce our increased demand. So that, you know, we don't, we don't know, I think that that's the cheapest resource, we can avoid using electricity. That's going to be our first cheapest resource. And then we can build out the delta between what we can basically Well, we can reduce completely right. So the idea is that we're gonna need a lot more electricity. But although there are ways to basically mitigate, you know, the impact on the grid and make sure that it's not necessarily very possibly well, to the to the baseline scenario,

Dan Seguin 16:16

Who are some of the partners in the electrifying Canada initiative? And what does their involvement mean to achieve your overall mission?

Moe Kibera 16:26

Yeah, I mean, so brought together as I mentioned, on the demand side, companies like tech resources and Rio Tinto, on the supply side, you know, we have the electricity alliance of Canada, which includes the industry associations, that electricity Canada, the Canadian Renewable Energy Association, the Canadian Nuclear Association, Marina Renewables, Water Power Canada and Electricity HR. And you know, also we have individual companies like Energetic OPG, as well as organizations like OPG Hydro One. And then on the civil society front, we got Pembina Instituten Netzero Atlantic. On labor, we got maybe EW, that comes from Brotherhood's Electric Workers. Also, we have First Nation major project coalition. It's really a broad coalition, and in terms of their involvement, really, it's about bringing, bringing the different voices together that are needed for action. So understanding the barrier, prioritizing those barriers, understanding the solution, prioritizing the solution, and getting through to have a shared vision of what we need to be working on, you know, on a national level, but also at the regional level. So that's why we're doing a regional approach in terms of, you know, figuring out for each province, what is the framework that we need to be working on for it to get to net zero electricity? So we're very happy to bring together you know, as I mentioned, 28 organizations, that's been, you know, the whole supply chain of electricity, but also include civil society, indigenous people, labor, and also the finance community.

Dan Seguin 18:10

Now, in addition to affordable, resilient and clean, what are some of the other qualities you're looking to achieve in your mission to electrify Canada?

Moe Kibera 18:20

Well, I think that, you know, really thinking through accessibility, and, and, and making sure that the electricity is available to everybody, in terms of, you know, different regional perspectives and different regional representation. So I think that we can get an electricity system that is actually affordable. So we don't have, you know, we don't bankrupt people for energy, which is really critical for us. So that's kind of like a trilemma there. And I think valid, there is a balance there to be struck between affordable, resilient, so resilient and reliable, put them in a box, and they clean. So for me, really, the vision is quite simple. And you wanted to keep it simple, because it's simple, but it's not easy, right? So we know what we need to do. We know what kind of characteristics we want our future electricity system to look like and our future energy system to have. But getting there, it's going to be a challenge. So our philosophy of the accelerator is we're starting with the end state, knowing that we need an electricity system that is affordable Atlantic clean, and then working backwards from there.

Dan Seguin 19:35

Okay. Maybe you can unpack your plans for public outreach and what are you hoping to learn from these more regional conversations?

Moe Kibera 19:46

Yeah, so I mean, we're going to be going to Vancouver Regina, Winnipeg, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Halifax, St. John's and we're going to be doing also in northern communities and indigenous communities. Some online workshops, to start off, really what we want to do is establish a baseline. So one is we want to understand where each region is in terms of their understanding of the look, the challenge at the regional level. So we're sort of established something called the, we want to start with something called the real world overlay. And it's a framework to really ground everything that we know is a barrier or an issue that will stop us from getting electricity. So that, that includes things like rate increases that include things like lighting constraints, labor constraints, skill needed, the all of these different barriers, we talked about, they're around, people keep mentioning them, but they're not gonna floating in the air, like, like I imagine the the more like floating with the cloud, and part of our objective is to really round them somewhere, so we can actually keep track of them. So what we're hoping to establish is this framework that will be public or developed. So it's not just us doing it. It's the stakeholders, informing it through the sessions that we're hosting, and through the relationships that we're building and the partners that we brought into the initiative, and then having it be evergreen and public. So that, really, if you think of it, this can be the sort of centralized forum for tracking all the barriers and solutions that are being implemented to address those barriers of Quebec. or BC, wants to implement a trial rate structure for low income households. With this framework, we track that over time, so that others who are working on these issues can go in and learn from that in a very kind of centralized and consolidated framework.

Dan Seguin 21:48

Now, why are Canada's electricity systems central to the country's netzero 2050 goals? Do we have a clean energy advantage?

Dan Seguin 22:01

Yeah, I mean, more than 80% of our electricity is already non emitting, which is great. Like relatively to other countries. So that's really gonna, it's one of our biggest value propositions as well, like when thinking about attracting new supply chains like battery manufacturing, and critical minerals extraction, for example. And the idea there is we want to retain that advantage, as we, you know, potentially double or triple our grid, right. So the the core thesis there is that we want to basically build a future electricity system that build on the community connected to the event that we have retained that, and it's going to be as I mentioned, if we're going to use electrification as a key pathway to get to net zero, then that electricity has to be clean. So this is why it's critical,

Dan Seguin 22:54

Okay, well, what would you say, are some of the biggest challenges to the creation of a national strategy and a zero emission pan Canadian electricity grid?

Moe Kibera 23:07

Well, I think the idea there is that we don't have one grid. Right. So that's one of the challenges to start with is because we have sort of a decentralized Federation. So I think that to create a national strategy will require each province to understand where they're, where they're at, and where they want to get to. And right now, it's not a uniform. So we're not, we're not like in the uniform state in terms of every province, kind of understanding that the condition is so BC and Quebec, maybe maybe very different in Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. So we don't have any sort of clarity. So that common framework, so I would say, in terms of the biggest challenge of creating a national strategy is that we need to have each province kind of understand and get their ducks in a row. Before we can really put up, put all the pieces of the puzzle together.

Dan Seguin 24:10

Okay. And in your view, Mo, who leads this and is best positioned to address structural and regulatory obstacles?

Dan Seguin 24:19

Yeah, I mean, I think this is why we want to we wanted to bring and build this coalition, because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we want you need industry at the table, you need to digitize people to the table, you need to verify the labor, you know, so it can't be just government on its own. It can't be just an industry on its own. So what we're hoping that this initiative will do is provide the sort of good framework to start tackling these issues. And in terms of the regulatory changes, I think there's a role obviously for the provinces or the provincial governments. There's a key role for the federal government and, you know, we're seeing things like the development of clean electricity regulation and the Feds playing that role. So I think that it can't just be a government and it has to be sort of a broader coalition. And that's kind of why we're as part of our fourth step in the accelerator, which is advancing solutions. It's building these consortiums and these alliances that really make sure that we converge on the next steps, and we're not really talking past each other. So I think that provincial governments, Crown corps utilities, vertically integrated utilities in certain provinces, you know, understanding where they're at, and modernizing the sort of regulatory framework so that putting electricity is also part of the mandate of the utilities, which is not necessarily the case right now. And it's something that is going to be critical.

Dan Seguin 25:57

Now, time for the crystal ball, what kinds of major investments need to be made to reach the 2035 timeline?

Moe Kibera 26:08

Well, I think it's really a lot of investments in new infrastructure. So generation, renewables and other non emitting electricity and transmission distribution, it's really about a fully integrated investment strategy that looks at, you know, how much more generation do we need? Can we offset some of that initial duration needs with transmission? Okay, but then at the distribution level, you know, what's going on there, when it comes to substations and transformers, like, a lot, like if you look at, for example, electric vehicle and option, you know, the could the bottleneck is not going to be what we have electricity at the director level bottleneck is going to be, we have the infrastructure at neighborhood levels, right, like, our little over the Transformers in the substation be able to handle all the things that are materializing. And it's going to be more critical, more of an issue in certain areas and than others. So I would say, really, the major investment are not going to be we need to build solar and wind, it's going to be you know, looking at all the solutions on generation solar, wind, nuclear, hydro, potentially, in terms of increasing some competence, some hydro capacity, using more efficient turbines, for example. And then storage, making sure that we have energy storage that can help offset or, you know, some of the increased generation needs so that we can have a more reliable facility. And then on the transmission side, looking at opportunities for regional transmission possible and that can help be a more cost effective way to get electricity added to the capacity of the system. And then on the division side, really looking at the local distribution networks and how it's, you know, the modernization of the assets there, basically meet the demand side, that materializing from transportation and building electrification.

Dan Seguin 28:22

And Mo, are intermittent renewable sources, district energy resources and non wire alternatives being considered. And at what scale?

Moe Kibera 28:34

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think I think it's a great question. So I think that a lot of different jurisdictions, especially in the US, and even here at home, are considering things like non white alternatives and distributed energy resources as a way to mitigate some of the major investments required at the distribution level, potentially even the transmission level. So I think that, you know, we need to basically try to find as much cost savings as possible across the supply chain or across the ecosystem. So thinking through generation, we can't, we have to find sort of the most effective low cost electricity. But then thinking throughout the solution level of we can use things like demand response, non viable alternatives to build energy generation to mitigate some of the heavy, high costs of distribution RCEP, then I think that's something that is being considered and we're doing it I've been involved in sort of comparative analysis in the US to look at, you know, what would, what would it cost if we just kind of do traditional distribution and what would it cost if we did not write alternatives? And then what are the cost benefits there? So I think that is something it is one of the tools in the toolbox for sure.

Dan Seguin 29:56

Now, Canada is a major fossil fuel exporter. With the oil and gas sector generating substantial revenues and supporting 1000s of jobs, oil and gas also contribute 26% of Canada's total greenhouse gas emissions. How do we approach this issue thoughtfully to achieve our climate goals?

Moe Kibera 30:22

Yeah. So I mean, I think there are opportunities to really look at the upstream missions, from the oil and gas sector, and actually using electrification, to help decarbonize the oil and gas sector as well. So thinking through, you know, this, you have, you know, you have the actual emissions that come from burning gas, and then you have the actual emissions that come from producing it. So if we're thinking about the production emissions, you know, there's there are going to be a lot of opportunities to leverage new technologies like carbon capture electrification, but even thinking about the hydrogen that is currently using the oil and gas sector that maybe coming from what we call black hydrogen, turning that into blue or hydrogen. But there's a lot of actually low hanging fruits that can really help us reduce a lot of the oil and gas emissions from coming from production. And then I think about what we're interested in as well as understanding what are the opportunities coming up from an industrial strategy or industrial perspective that can help us, you know, grow sectors or the Canadian economy. So I'm the co-chair of the game battery Taskforce. So it's a taskforce that's focused on basically growing Canada's battery supply chain, and electric vehicle manufacturing. So in that sense, the auto sector contributes 500,000 jobs directly and indirectly, as a youth contributor to GDP. How do we make sure that we retain that advantage when retaining that contribution to the sectors but also grow it because, you know, we want to be able to diversify our economy and be part of an industrial green industrial future. At the accelerator, one things that we're very interested in is industrial policy that is focused on competitiveness, and understanding where that competitiveness comes from, in terms of the emerging sectors, so things like zero emission vehicles, biofuels, hydrogen, aviation, fuels, mass, timber, critical minerals, so we need to basically understand the opportunities that are emerging as part of this new world order of being industrial futures. And I understand how Canada can can play in that so that on the export table, you know, you know, that we're able to sort of elevate some of those protectors, to be able to cover the gap that, you know, will come into play as part of the natural world that is emerging in terms of decreasing reliance on fossil fuels.

Dan Seguin 32:53

Now, how does your initiative electrified Canada fit in the federal government's plan to create a pan Canadian grid Council?

Moe Kibera 33:04

Yeah, so we're, we're working very closely with natural resources, Canada, they're very supportive of this initiative. You know, and we're still kind of keeping our ear to the ground when it comes to the national grid Council. But we hope that basically, this initiative can be sort of a parallel process, in terms of really having INTEL RESEARCH, convening, that can feed into the group Council, because the idea of the good Council is not going to be able to bring together hundreds of people, right, it's going to be more, we don't know exactly what it will look like. But it will be a bit more stark, smaller scale. So the hope there is that the regional engagements that we're doing the sort of more granular analysis that we're doing, can help feed into some of the recommendations and feedback from the grid council. So it's kind of like a parallel process.

Dan Seguin 33:56

Okay. Now, let's go beyond the borders here. What can we learn from the EU or Denmark or other Nordic countries with respect to their cooperation, to expand the electricity grid and decarbonize it?

Moe Kibera 34:13

Yeah. So I mean, I think that for Denmark, and for the rest of Europe, really kind of showcasing the advantage they've had when it comes to renewable energy development. And focusing also on sort of the green electricity advantage. Some of the collaborations or integration that we've seen, even actually in Switzerland, you know, it's really about rent integration, and integrating different grids together. So, you know, in Switzerland, we had a little bit more of a decentralized structure and there was an initiative last few years to kind of bring it together into sort of digital using technology and digitize Vation and sort of modernization efforts to be able to, you know, integrate the math supply in Switzerland and make it a bit more of a national grid. So I think that the lessons there, there's a lot of lessons to be learned. The idea of electricity supply theory of supply is very big in Europe right now. And, and I think that there was a bit of a sort of force of hand, given the crisis in Ukraine, that kind of pushed or accelerated the need for integration. And I think that was a very critical aspect of what were some of the trends you're seeing in terms of good integration there.

Dan Seguin 35:48

Okay. Now, what about lessons from discussions happening with respect to the Atlantic loop? Do you have an update on that?

Moe Kibera 35:57

Well, I think the Atlantic loop, you know, it's gonna be, you know, it's very interesting to see, it really highlighted that there's a lot of challenges when it comes to actually building up a major project like that are still kind of waiting to see especially given you know, Nova Scotia Energy Board, basically put a cap on on a rate increases, which basically prompted Nova Scotia to say that, you know, they're they're going to be put in a position where they can't invest if they can't recover costs from ratepayers. So I think that it's still something that is very, it's going to be a very positive precedent for US and Canada that we can bring together these provinces, you know, multiple provinces together, people had Labrador, Nova Scotia, Quebec, both were New Brunswick. So I think it's going to be obviously a critical project to reach the net zero targets for those for Atlantic Canada, right. So especially for Nova Scotia. So I think that you know, some of it's gonna be interesting to do like a little bit of a post mortem, hopefully, after we're done to basically dissect some of the lessons learned in terms of the barrier of bringing together you know, the different provinces in independent electricity system and also the different structures of the utility right? Nova Scotia has a different structure and then New Brunswick Power and BC Hydro and Hydro Quebec.

Dan Seguin 37:42

What are the biggest obstacles with our provinces when it comes to cooperation, and successfully achieving an integrated grid? How can electrifying Canada play a role?

Moe Kibera 37:56

So I think we don't want to over promise. And I think part of what we're trying to do, and we're very genuine, is to really help kind of, like I mentioned before, round all these different issues and put them somewhere that we can actually understand. And be clear that we're all looking at the same thing, while having a sort of shared understanding of the baseline of where we're at. So I think provinces a big part of it is communication and integration. So a lot of provinces don't necessarily know what other provinces are doing. So when I worked as a consultant, a big part of what we did, or a lot of our clients with fictional scans, so you'd be talking to utility in BC or utility in Alberta. And they'd be like, Why would somebody do it? What are they doing in Quebec? And I think that kind of knowledge sharing is not necessarily there sometimes. And so I think it's something very simple but, but it's something that is going to be very critical, because it's a way for us to turn the challenges of the decentralized Federation into an advantage in terms of running different experiments in different places, because we are able to do that. So trying different rate structures in different provinces trying different programs in different provinces. So what we're trying to do with with overcoming the provincial barriers, is to really offer those lessons learned and best practices and consolidating them into a framework that we're developing, ensuring that ensuring that we are kind of that conduit for information sharing and for integration collaboration,

39:35

Okay. polar opposites now, what are the biggest opportunities that provinces and territories could benefit from with an integrated grid?

Moe Kibera 39:47

Well, I think the biggest opportunity would be to really take advantage of, you know, the differences in the provincial system. So you know, a province that has A lot of when versus a province that has a lot of solar versus a province that has a lot of hydro, you can basically look at the system and try to develop an integrated approach to that. It will be overall cheaper for them to basically work together and take advantage of the different technology that they have. Right. I think really, at the end of the day, if cost reduction, and being able to meet their targets, you know, in a way that it's that that ensures the affordable, resilient, reliable, and clean electricity system.

Dan Seguin 40:39

Okay, so, does reaching the 2035 targets hinge on a unified and integrated grid across Canada? Or can it be achieved without it?

Moe Kibera 40:51

Well, no, I don't think it hinges on a unified electricity grid, I think I think we need to realise that we do have multiple grids and multiple systems. And that we need to start from that position. We need to look at a national approach that can basically help us reduce costs, ensure more reliability, and a cleaner system. But I don't think necessarily, you know, it's either or, it's not like we either have a national grid, or we're never getting there, I think it's more about integrating as much as possible to reduce barriers and to reduce costs.

Dan Seguin 41:36

Now, looking forward to your response to this next question. Is there a huge communication challenge to overcome? I read in the transition accelerators report building path to a sustainable future, that this shouldn't be framed as just about electricity or technology, or even net zero emissions. How do you think electrification, and the climate conversation should be positioned?

Moe Kibera 42:07

I think the climate conversation really at the end of the day, for us, it kind of eats up with the world moving very quickly. So we have things like the Inflation Reduction Act in the US, and we have failed policies emerging in Europe. And all of that is leading us down a path of great green industrial growth and industrial future. So people are driving EVs. Yeah, sure, because of emissions, but really, because the more efficient, the more reliable in terms of, you can just come home and charge it, and you know, how you never have to go to a gas station? Yeah, sure, the issues range, but you know, 99% of the time, it's not really an issue. So we're thinking through a lot of technologies. And we kind of see the climate and that zero emission aspect is a sort of secondary or a, like a byproduct of, of the green industrial transition. And then the candidate position, you know, we want to be able to participate and get all of the economic benefits that come from this being an actual global leader in effectors. And we do have that opportunity, because they have access to critical minerals and metals, they have access to technology and intellectual property development that is happening here, boom, we have the electricity advantage. So for us, really, the framing is about, you know, how do we position Canada to be an economic powerhouse when it comes to green wind technology. Because we technology is obviously going to be needed for climate change. And that we're, you know, but but really, at the end of the day, it's about, you know, taking advantage of the economic benefits that come with that. And as well as the front of the same coin, and given how the world is shifting, and especially as I mentioned, Europe and Europe in the US the demand is there. And how do we basically position ourselves to be able to take advantage of that growing demand and, and be an exporter of different technologies? The world?

Dan Seguin 44:16

Okay, do you truly think we lack a shared vision as Canadians on the future? And how do we get there together? How do we fix it?

Moe Kibera 44:27

I think initiatives like the Canada initiative that we're doing as well, when it comes to the emission vehicle, light chain and building electrification and all these we were involved in several initiatives is the first step right. So I think it's really about understanding what the future could look like, where are the where, what are our strengths? What are what's our value proposition of the country, and then you're using the computations and forums and convening aspect to really sort of tool to create a shared vision. I think that also, you know, making sure that we have communication collaboration between provincial energy depictions is going to be critical. So, yeah, I mean, I think, for us, we really believe that advancing solutions means bringing in the actual people and the stakeholders that are involved in that and implementing the solutions together, and waiting, insistent for collaboration. So if you look at Europe, the Canadian battery, the European Battery Alliance, you know, they brought together hundreds of stakeholders, and they've successfully started to build out a very, you know, sophisticated battery supply chain in Europe. So this kind of private public partnership is, you know, through a third party intermediary, we see that as a very critical tool to actually reaching a shared vision.

Dan Seguin 46:04

Now, there is something I know that's on the top of the list of considerations, customer affordability. What are your thoughts on how we can achieve our goals, while maintaining costs for customers?

Moe Kibera 46:21

Yeah, I mean, I think part of it, part of the process that we're going through is to actually landlord solutions for that issue. And that those solutions can be different for different provinces and different regions. I think that I don't really have the answer. But there's a lot of different but a lot of smart people that we have brought together and part of this ultra pine Canada initiative, have ideas. And like I mentioned before, we need to basically consider those ideas, maybe do some trials. I'll give just one example. You know, one thing could be like a means tested rate structure for low low income households, right. So like, but also we're also thinking about and talking about how energy costs can be reduced because of efficiencies gained through electrification. So if you are somebody that drives a car, and has a baseboard heaters in Quebec, for example, you know, if you can, if you get an electric vehicle, and if you get heat pumps, your energy consumption will actually be reduced, or even a brace increase increased by a little bit, your overall energy costs could potentially be much lower than the existing energy costs. So there's a lot of nuance there. And I think that we need to be careful that nobody's left behind and design our structures to rate structures and how we manage energy costs, to make sure that affordability is top of mind, right? So I think this is something that there's no one answer for every single province or every single region in the country, there's going to be multiple solutions that we can try out multiple suites of solutions that are going to work hand in hand. And we're motivated that by bringing together the coalition that we brought together, we're basically going to be able to get to the answers and advanced solutions.

Dan Seguin 48:13

Now Mo, are you looking at opportunities to integrate our electricity grid with the US? What are the benefits that could help modernize and even optimize our grid with a US partnership?

Moe Kibera 48:28

I think that's a really great conversation. One of our partners, you know, was in the US recently had this exact conversation, I would say, at a high level, we should be exploring all opportunities when it comes to integration, whether it's regional within Canada or cross border, because at the end of the day, as I mentioned, it's about you know, it's very simple. If I have I have access, and you have demand. And then let's make sure that my access goes to your demand. If you have access, and I have demand, let's make sure that your access comes to my demand, and then as a way to reduce, you know, cost because then okay, well, I'm not going to overbuild my generation because there's there's sort of a pathway for me to meet my demand, knowing that there's excess electricity coming from across the border, or vice versa. So I think that the integration with the US is something that is critical for us to consider. But also it's going to be a lot easier once we have our ducks in a row within Canada. Right. So once we have our own strategy and our understanding of what is the delta between what we can do in house, what is the delta, between what we can export, what is our access? That's going to make the conversation we're going to be coming to the conversation from a position of strength and position an advantage right? So I think that it's something that is top of mind, but it seems a little bit a little bit down the road from today. I mean, we already have integration with us, obviously But, in terms of that broader integration, it seems like the conversation is a little bit in the early stages.

Dan Seguin 50:07

Lastly, what's exciting you and giving you hope about the possibility of an integrated and zero emission electricity grid?

Moe Kibera 50:18

Yeah, I mean, it's really exciting that we are going to be able to really decarbonize a huge amount of our sectors under carbon on buildings, reputation, industrial agriculture. And really the idea of having a fully netzero grid. I mean, for Canada, as I mentioned, we're largely not emitting which has been great, but to get to net zero. And what I'm really optimistic about is seeing all of the different efforts that are happening when it comes to electricity generation when it comes to developing some kind of policy certainty for investors. So as I mentioned, this is sort of a trend that is an industrial economic trend. I'm excited to see that coupling that's happening where it's like, it's not either or it's really, this is where the world is headed. This is where the where the money that is where the economy is going at a global level, we need to get there and hey, guess what, as part of this, we get to also get into zero and help, you know, address climate change, but I think that's really what's exciting for me at this point in time is that we reached the stage where there is that integration between, you know, economics and climate.

Dan Seguin 51:36

Okay, sir, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? For more? What are you reading right now?

51:48

I'm rereading a book called Electrification by Paul Griffith from Rewiring America.

Dan Seguin 51:56

Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?

Moe Kibera 52:00

I don't. I guess Transatlantic.

Dan Seguin 52:03

Okay. Now, who is someone that you admire?

Moe Kibera 52:08

I really admire Bruce Laurie from the Foundation because I recently had an amazing conversation with him. And you know, the work that he's done, especially with the get Ontario off call,

Dan Seguin 52:17

this next one is always a challenging one. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Moe Kibera 52:26

I guess, diving underwater.

Dan Seguin 52:29

Now,what is the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,

Moe Kibera 52:35

I guess with live music went away. It was tough.

Dan Seguin 52:38

Okay, last one here. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?

Moe Kibera 52:47

I really love Succession, an HBO show?

Dan Seguin 52:50

Okay, MO. Lastly, what is exciting about your industry right now.

Moe Kibera 52:55

What's really excited me is the growth. It's really seeing how fast we're growing. You know that it's not necessarily mainstream now. It is the future, we've hit that point of inevitability. And it's really exciting to be that.

Dan Seguin 53:12

Okay, so this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today, Moe. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?

Moe Kibera 53:26

Yeah, we're at transition accelerator.ca. And you can go there and find our contact info. Also on social media, Twitter, LinkedIn, happy to connect with folks. And, yeah, really appreciate that opportunity to be here today, Dan.

Dan Seguin 53:43

Cool. Okay. Thanks. Now, again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Moe Kibera 53:50

Yeah, for sure. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Dan Seguin 53:52

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Canadians lost $530M to scams in 2022, per the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre. To take advantage of unsuspecting consumers, some fraudsters target the energy industry. In thinkenergy episode 104, Jared Lawrence, Founder & Executive Committee Chair of Utilities United Against Scams, discusses how to protect yourself from scams and what to do if you’ve been duped. Jared is also the Vice President of Revenue Services & Metering at Duke Energy, one of the largest electric power holding companies in the U.S.A.

Related links

• Utilities United Against Scams: https://www.utilitiesunited.org/
• Duke Energy: https://www.duke-energy.com/home
• Jared Lawrence, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredalawrence/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Chances are you've either been a victim of a scam, or you know someone who has. According to the Canadian Anti Fraud Centre, there were more than 90,000 reports of fraud in 2022. This resulted in $530 million lost to scams in Canada last year alone. Of that 530 million, only 2.4 was recovered. That's how successful these criminals are. The most common method fraudsters are using to scam Canadians email and telemarketing. It may or may not be surprising, but the energy industry is no stranger to the world of scam artists looking to make a quick money from unsuspecting energy customers. And we've seen an increase in their efforts to call, text, email and even show up in person at a customer's home and place of business to intimidate and threaten. Since the pandemic began in 2020, the Canadian RCMP have seen a significant increase in fraudulent activity with approximately 70% done through cyber attacks. And as we've seen firsthand in the energy industry, fraudsters are becoming more and more sophisticated, evolving with the times. Yep. According to a recent survey by Chartered Professional accountants, Canada 62% of Canadians are actively taking steps to protect themselves from scammers. But is it enough? So here's today's big question. How can we better protect ourselves from scams? And what are your options if you've been scammed by fraudster joining me on today's show is Jared Lorenz, Vice President of Revenue Services and Metering at Duke Energy, one of the largest electric power holding companies in the US. Duke Energy provides electricity to 7.7 million customers in Florida, the Carolinas and part of the Midwest. Jared is also the founder and Executive Committee Chair of an organization known as utility united against scams. Jared, welcome to the show. Now, scams are such a big problem in our industry that there's a utility scam Awareness Day and a National Scam Awareness Week. That's how big problems gotten. What can you tell us about the utility united against scams and your vision when you started it?

Jared Lawrence 03:28

That's an excellent question. And there's actually a Hydro Ottawa connection that I will get to in a second Dan. Really, utilities unite against scam started as a result of an internal investigation at my company. We were hosting our CEO, actually in our call center where both our customer care agents as well as the back office employees who report to me we're having a Q&A session with our CEO. And one of the Customer Care Specialists raised her hand and said, Miss Good, I'm really concerned. We have a lot of customers calling up about scammers, and they're convinced that these scammers actually have their information. What are we doing about this? And this was back in 2015. So, this was in the context of a number of high profile breaches with major retailers that were in the media. And so this was something we were definitely heightened, had a heightened sensitivity to. And she actually looked at me, as as one of the two leaders in the room and said, Yes, Jared, what are we doing about that? I said, Well, we're not doing anything right now. But we're going to start tomorrow. And so we actually commissioned a SWAT team internally to make sure that there were no data breaches, no breaches with our vendors, no inside, you know, bad actors who were sharing information with scammers, and it became apparent very quickly, that these scammers did not actually have customer information. They were just brilliant social engineers and in all of our net, our information networks were completely secure. So we got to the end of that effort. It took about, you know, three weeks to do that intensive investigation. And then I said to the team, well, now what? We're not going to leave these folks, you know, our customers out there to fend for themselves against these criminals. What did we learn from this? And what can we do about it? And it became apparent to me pretty quickly that this is a problem of international scale, but each utility was attacking it as an individual entity. And we would have so much more presence, so much more of a voice in the public policy space, if we joined together as the influential industry that serves the public, and use our cloud to basically push for change and better protect our customers. So that's not the concept of utilities, but scams were born. I made the pitch to a number of attendees at CS Week. And so far, you know, many folks in the utility industry are aware of CS Week, it is the Customer Service focused Conference for utility professionals. This was back in the spring of 2016, then, and immediately, the cars essentially sold themselves. There were 25 utility organizations represented in the room and every single one of them came up to me afterwards, and expressed interest in becoming part of this vision of this industry effort. But it was actually an A breakfast conversation later on during the conference with David McKendree, who's retired from Hydro Ottawa, who's become a friend of mine through our board work on CS Week. And he pulled me aside he said, Jared, I've been thinking a lot about your utilities united against scams effort. And I suggest maybe you consider a national campaign. And, and the fact that utilities across North America are coming together, to, to work together for this specific event, this specific campaign that's newsworthy in and of itself. And I think, Jared, that if you take that approach, you will be able to attract so much more interest in this cause, and, frankly, so much more membership and he was spot on. I thought it was a fantastic suggestion. We made that kind of the centerpiece of our first few months of existence back in 2016, culminating with our National Utility Scam Awareness Day and National Utility Scam Awareness Week in November of 2016. The US House of Representatives, of course, recognized us with a declaration of national utility scam Awareness Day. And we went from 25 utility organizations that expressed interest in that first conference to 89 members by the time we got to that campaign in November, and since then, we've grown to where we are today at exactly 150 across the US and Canada. So it's grown beyond what I honestly could have expected or hoped for, but certainly not beyond that vision of the industry coming together to protect our customers against us, against this very important surge.

Dan Seguin 08:01

Okay, Jared, what types of scams are appearing most often? Can you maybe provide some real life examples? And has the global pandemic altered scam activity? And its frequency?

Jared Lawrence 08:18

Excellent question. And so at the core, the scam that was the main focus of utilities back in 2015, when I started our investigation to Duke Energy and, and it remains today. It's that classic disconnection threat scam. So a customer gets a call out of the blue from somebody purporting to be a representative of the utility. And they state that due to some sort of problem with the account or some sort of problem with a payment being returned by a bank or some, you know, some fabricated excuse like that. The customer's account is now overdue, and there is a disconnection technician in route to turn off the customer's power. Usually it's power. Sometimes it's other utilities, but it's almost always powered within the next 30 to 45 minutes. And so the customer needs to act. They need to purchase a prepaid card and call the scammers back with that information within the next 30 to 45 minutes to prevent this connection. That was their bread and butter back in 2015. It's still their bread and butter today. What's interesting is that we've seen little variations in scammers. They are attuned to what's happening in their market, so to speak, and how utilities and law enforcement and others are reacting to their tactics. And so they've tried certain things. So for example, one of the things that we saw at Duke Energy was that when our smart meters were being deployed in each of our territories and in our six electric states. The scammers at various times would attempt to kind of change the tactic and focus on a meter deposit that the customer had failed to pay something that wouldn't typically show up on a bill and that kind of thing. Kind of trying to capitalize on that, on the headlines associated with utility. And with utility at that particular time, those didn't work very well. So we tend to see the attempt to collect that meter deposit, that scam fell off pretty quickly. We've seen the scammers attempt, text and email sporadically; those don't seem to work very well either, because they don't have the same level of immediacy that a phone call has. So those tend to flare up at times and then die out on their own. We've seen the scammers explore different payment channels. So we've had some customers report that the scammers have asked them to pay in Bitcoin, which, of course is absurd, because I don't know about. But Duke Energy certainly does not accept Bitcoin. We've seen them request Zell transfers, which are actually traceable. So that would work very well. For the banks. We've seen several skimmers recently try and use a cash app. But their bread and butter has historically been prepaid cards and you know, one or two prepaid cards in particular brands of which I won't mention on this podcast. But there are one or two that stand out above all the rest that are particularly susceptible to fraud. Oh, I'm sorry. Then you also asked me about the global pandemic, if you address that. So there was a fascinating cycle that we observed during 2020. So our utility, and utility is all across the world, probably we're announcing suspensions of the credit collections policies and suspensions of disconnections. We saw the scammers initially attempting to kind of plow through that and and continue to attempt their disconnection scams. But we just saw customers weren't falling for it. Customers were completely attuned to the fact that you had disconnected and suspended their disconnection practices. And so the scammers that after attempting for a little while, the volume really started to taper off. But immediately when we started talking about a reinstitution of some of our credit Collections Practices, even though we were working with customers still letting customers know that they were going to have to get onto a payment arrangement. In order to avoid this connection toward the end of the year, the scammers were clearly paying attention to the meeting around us and other utilities. And immediately they started ramping up as if they had gotten behind on their annual revenue goals. And they felt that they needed to ramp back up their activities. And so it turned out that 2020 as a whole ended up being one of the highest volume years in terms of scan since we created our database through energy. And where there were over 20,000 scan reports of the year the vast majority of them happened in late summer, throughout the remainder of the year when scan was new that we had started to in modified form reinstate some of our credit collections policies.

Dan Seguin 13:18

Okay, thanks, Jared. Are there any specific population groups who are frequently targeted? How can we as a community offer better support to these groups? What's the best line of defense?

Jared Lawrence 13:32

So, you know, again, as with everything that I've seen, in the six years that I've been heavily engaged in this topic, they tend to go in cycles. And so in the beginning, it seemed to be random, the victims, the target seemed to be random. And so since it was random, there was you know, statistically, the vast majority of utility customers are residential. And so there was a heavy focus on residential customers. What we started to see is obviously, I've never spoken with a scammer to validate this. But what we started to see was that the scammer started to use tools, probably online maps, you know, simple tools like Google Maps, etc. To determine what were the businesses in a particular area and How close were they to some of the retail outlets sold the prepaid cards that they like to use? And the reason they were focusing on businesses is if they caught up with a residential customer, and they and they would say to the residential customer, you're behind on your bill. Yeah, that was two months. Well, they really couldn't ask for more than, you know, a couple 100 bucks because a typical residential customer knows that they're your average utility bills, not going to be that much more than 100 bucks unless it's the heat of the summer or the or the depth of winter. But they recognize that they started calling restaurants, veterinary clinics and, and others that are fairly energy intensive that they could ask for 1000s of dollars. And it would work because at the same time they would they would get into a rhythm where they would come All these particular businesses during what they knew to be, for example, a restaurants busiest part of the day during the lunch hour, a veterinarians busiest type of day, right mid afternoon when they might have had dogs and cats under sedation, a dry cleaners, busiest time of the day, right around five o'clock in the, you know, post the rush hour period when people are dropping in to pick up their dry cleaning, things like that. The scammers became very intelligent about, again, the social engineering aspect of focusing on the times when their victims were most vulnerable. What we've seen, what we tend to see and I do think that these scammers are, are paying attention and noticing the impacts of YouTube from utilities united against scams, in that over the course of the last few years, we have forged a partnership with in with an organization called somos, which is the toll free administrator that toll free number administrator for basically all toll free phone lines across North America. And, what started happening was that we were getting there, you know, through this partnership, we were having the scammers when 100 numbers disconnected. And the scammer started to recognize this. And so they have migrated toward more of a robo calling model now, where they call up and they say instead of asking the customer to call back, they say press this number to speak to press one to speak to somebody about your delinquent bill, for example. And because they're using robocalls. Now, it's much more random again, and so we're seeing a shift back toward a higher preponderance of residential customers. Now all along, we have seen particularly with utility scam, that Spanish speaking populations and Spanish speaking businesses in particular have been more vulnerable. And I think there's two reasons for this. The first of which is that in my conversations with law enforcement and my direct conversations with the scammers, because I talk to them a lot when I'm calling up to validate that they're using fraud numbers, I call them up and try to play along and pretend I'm a victim. They tend to be they seem to be originating from Spanish speaking countries, most likely in Latin America, and law enforcement has corroborated that. And sometimes when I call them up, they're actually answering the line in Spanish, meaning that they are targeting Spanish businesses in particular, at that particular time, and they seem to be much more fluent in Spanish than they are in English at times as well. And, and so the reason that we think that this customer group is more vulnerable is because there is a, you know, there's a natural language barrier between the routine communications that they would receive from utility, versus the communications that they're receiving from these scammers. And therefore, that might cut through some of the awkwardness that a native English speaker might pick up on if they were being contacted by somebody who isn't an eight native English speaker, originally versus being a native Spanish speaker. And the second two is that there just seems to be a little bit less of a of a reflex of distrust amongst, amongst Spanish speaking businesses and Spanish speaking community a little bit and a little bit of a greater a greater trust in official communications, or official sounding communications rather than a reflex to immediately distrust something that is that hits them out of the blue. And so we have seen a disproportionate number of Spanish speaking businesses being targeted and showing up on our victims list.

Dan Seguin 18:52

So, in general, Jared, is there anything customers can do to proactively guard themselves and their loved ones? Against scams?

Jared Lawrence 19:03

Great question. So I am a big fan of these anti robocall services such as Nomorobo. It's the one that we use at our house. I'm not a paid spokesman. But I do actually have through the scam work come to know the founder and president of Nomorobo. And so that, and from the car registries that he shared with us, we are seeing that they're doing a good job of blocking a lot of these scam calls that are coming from, they're coming from these criminals. So I recommend that because that'll just reduce the likelihood that householder or businesses that these calls are making it through the searches in the first place. The second thing is really just to know the signs. So you know, the basic signs are that a utility, the first communication you get from a utility about a potential deal delinquent bill or a problem with a payment is not going to be 30 minutes before you're disconnected. And a true utility representative is not going to insist on one particular type of payment, they're not going to make you drive down the street to a local retail outlet, get a specific thing, tell you not to talk to the club clerk and then force you to come back to me that payment quickly. And if you express any doubts at all about the legitimacy of the call, a legitimate utility representative will be more than happy to have you contact the utility directly using the published number, the public contact channels on your actual bill versus what they give you. Whereas a scammer is going to resist all of those because they know what to do when the gig is up. So that's really the key there, you want to reduce your vulnerability or your exposure to scam communications in the first place. And then if they do get through just be highly educated on the signs.

Dan Seguin 21:05

This next one is important. What are some ways to identify a utility scammer over the phone via text message and the scariness of the mall at your door? What are the red flags to look out for the best way to deal with them?

Jared Lawrence 21:26

So again, Dan, I think that the number one thing to keep in mind is that it is very rare that you will get an urgent communication from your utility about a billing problem. That's it with disconnection being imminent. Out of the blue, within the next 45 minutes, that will be the first communication. So a utility scammer typically is somebody who contacts you with a sense of urgency, and there's a lot of pressure built into that communication. They will then resist, they will try and talk you out of seeking independent verification of identity. So whether it's a call or a call that you get, if you say Well Do you mind if I just hang up and call the number back on your official website just to validate this, a scammer will try and talk you out of that they'll say something like the driver is already on his way. Or if it's even worse, if they're at your door. And and you open the door and you are not expecting him, a utility representative will be more than happy to allow you to take the time to call the Customer Care Center to validate their legitimacy. Whereas a criminal will try and convince you that something is very urgent and you don't have the time to do so. Those are some of the some of the most obvious signs of a criminal who's trying to pressure you into taking action before you have time to think and get the facts straight. You know, again. The other thing to keep in mind, too, is and we've seen that we saw this from the very beginning when going back to that first customer care ever raised that concern because she felt that she was relaying the customers felt that their that their information had been compromised when in fact it wasn't just because a a somebody posing as utility rep seems to have your info, it does not make them legitimate. Unfortunately, most information about us as individuals, as consumers is available out there on the web. It's just one of the sad facts about modern life. Additionally, though, these scammers are brilliant social engineers, and they're very good at making you think that they have legitimate information. So even if a scammer calls up and they quote something that sounds like your legitimate balance, don't trust them. In fact, one of the early cases that we research that first month when we when we deployed that SWAT team I was talking about that really convinced me of the nature of this problem was we had one particular customer who had reported that the scammer had their balance their actual balance. And we looked at the account. And sure enough, the information that the customer had reported to us did align with what their most recent bill was. So we talked to the customer and we said well tell us how the conversation went. And they started to think about it. And what they finally recalled was that the scammer called them up and said there was a problem with your last payment. Your payment did not go through and the victim then said well wait a minute. Let me go. I happen to be on my online banking system right now. Let me look right here. And I see my payment for $271.30 or whatever it was. It went through on October 4 or whatever it was. And then the scammer says no, I see your payment for $271.30 and it actually got rejected the next day, October 5 by your bank. And so now the person who was caught off guard by this call in the first place is thinking, Oh, this person must be legitimate because he has a system right there and my payment is in it. And he knows all about my transaction. Well, now, you told them, they tricked you into giving them that information. And so that's the other key is to never ever volunteer account information or personal information. If somebody calls you up out of the blue, and they are legitimate, they will understand if you don't want to volunteer information, they will invite you the opportunity to call back their official customer Carolina. But if somebody calls you out of the blue and starts asking for some information about you, that is another clear sign that that scam is likely you're likely the victim of a scam.

Dan Seguin 25:48

Now, let's say I'm a customer who fell victim to a scam losing money and possibly personal information on the process. What are my options? Is there anyone or anywhere specific that customers can turn to for help?

Jared Lawrence 26:05

Well, so there's some good news, but a lot of not good news to share on that front down. So the first thing I would recommend is if you have fallen victim, and if you have made a payment using any sort of prepaid card or electronic payment channel, immediately call the fraud line associated with the payment method that you use and do it quickly. The reason is that, and I'm speaking about the prepaid cards in particular, the way these scammers work is that they're targeting multiple victims, you know, across the country at any given time across the continent at any one time. And what they do is they call you up, they trick you into making that payment. And, basically in doing that they transfer your money from the card number you provide to a destination card that they're using to collect, and I'll use in quotes launder the funds. And then every few minutes, they sweep the money off of those cards. So there's typically a small window, where if the scammers have not liquidated those funds into the ether, that if you happen to call back, you might be able to get your money back. But you've got to move quickly because a lot of these payment channels that they use are attractive to scammers, particularly because they're non reversible. And, and so your timing has to be very quick and very spot on with those. So that's the first thing to do. The second thing to do, is to file a police report. Now, sadly, because these criminals are typically perpetrating their crimes from offshore, they are not going to be reachable with local law enforcement. But nonetheless, it's important that you follow the police report so that it enters the law enforcement database that helps the various folks in law enforcement at the national level who are trying to create, you know, enough of a body of evidence to investigate these cases and investigate these syndicates that are running these scams. And, and also to mention that, for example, in the United Way to one one service here in North Carolina, and there are other organizations, they actually have resources that are available for victims of cybercrime and other fraud. So I would reach out to your local community assistance agency, if you have suffered any financial hardship as a result of being targeted to determine what resources they have. I'm not aware of any that can restore the funds that you've lost, but they can maybe help you cope with any financial hardship that you're suffering in the near term as a result of being targeted. And then finally, you know, report the attempt to your utility because the utility united against scams. We use this information to refine our strategies. We use this information for our engagement with our telecom partners, our engagement with law enforcement and government officials to support law enforcement efforts and to try and better shape public policy to protect customers against these types of scams.

Dan Seguin 29:16

Now, maybe we could look at prevention. What our utility companies and police force are doing to help deter and fight against scammers. Can you tell us any success stories of scammers being deterred or better yet caught?

Jared Lawrence 29:36

Okay, well, I can actually share with you a couple of instances. These weren't directly related to the utility imposter scam. But the larger using the Canadian revenue associations that would CRA stands for yes. So larger CRA scams we celebrated when we read articles back in the fall of 2018, and again in 2019, where the Royal Canadian Mounted Police executed successful stings of, of scam call centers, basically running those texts, those tax scams against Canadian citizens. And in those time frames. In one case, I believe they arrested 32 Indian nationals who were executing these scams out of a fraudulent call center. And another one, it was 28. criminals who were apprehended in those busts. And really the key there is again, you know, just countless reports of victims, each one a small victim of crime just building up to this very large case, there was also a recent case, in the US with the Internal Revenue Service scam, where I believe that the individual was arrested back into that I can't remember 2017 or 2018, but he was just convicted back in November of 2020, the ringleader, again another Indian call center operation that was running this IRS scam. And the ringleader there was sentenced to 20 years in prison and fined $9 million. So there are there are people in law enforcement at the national level, both in the Canada and the US, who are who are paying attention and are specifically focusing on these, you know, very lucrative scans these very lucrative criminal operations and building cases and seeking international partnerships to, to to bust these operations. I think that those two are an example of, of operations that were that were claiming hundreds of millions, if not more, dollars in ill gotten gains. And so they're probably slightly bigger fish in these utility scans. And I think these utility scammers are probably collecting millions of dollars a year but not hundreds of millions of dollars, which is why these other tax related scams are gaining or gaining more attention.

Dan Seguin 32:15

Jared, tell me what is at the heart or lack thereof of a scammer's intention? What are some behaviors that are evidence of this?

Jared Lawrence 32:26

So, you know, one of the things that we have spent a lot of time understanding is what is this is the utility imposter scammers Mo, are they spending a lot of time researching their victims to create a really, you know, compelling story that increases their hit rate, or are they really they're going for high volume, low yield, but making their money off of volume. And it's really the latter. And so what I noticed very quickly, in the various countless times that I've called these fraud numbers to validate their phone numbers to get them shut down, frankly, is that the scammer has very quickly tried to ascertain whether you are a likely victim. So if you want to talk with them about anything about address change, sometimes I make up that I'm calling about an outage. They will immediately try and turn it into a conversation about an outstanding debt that is supposedly going to trigger a disconnection. And if you don't, the signal is sort of gullible toward it at that particular time, they're going to end the call really quickly. They'll try and do it in a way that makes it seem polite enough that you'll still walk away from that thinking that it was legitimate utility interaction. But in reality, once you step back, you realize they didn't give me any customer service at all. They were just trying to figure out if I was, if I was unlikely to be marked for them or not. That's the biggest one. The second biggest one is that, you know, we see our customer care agents go through countless hours of training in order to maintain professionalism, and how to be attentive to customers to listen to their needs. The scammers, they get frustrated really quickly and if you attempt to call them out, they will very quickly turn on you and say some things that are very rude, things that can't even be repeated on a podcast. So that is another obvious giveaway is that if the person you're talking to starts to become rude or aggressive, or exerts pressure in any way, they're not utility representatives, okay?

Dan Seguin 34:40

Now, in contrast, tell us what's at the heart of any utility as they engage with customers. How can customers use these contrasting intentions as a legitimate test?

Jared Lawrence 34:53

So recognizing that these scammers might listen to this podcast I'm always a little bit careful to give away all The strategies I use to validate that when I'm calling them up that they're in the, in these cameras, however, the obvious signs of a of a, of a trained utility rep are number one, they're going to be attentive to your needs. Number two, they are not going to try and pressure you into anything. Because our goal is to make sure that you are a happy customer that you're getting the service that you need. And if you happen to be having facing financial hardship or difficulty paying, we're not going to threaten you with this connection, we're going to offer up payment arrangements, ways to structure your utility debt so that you can maintain service with us, the last thing that a utility professional is to do is to see your account, be disconnected for non payment, our goal is to try and work with you as much as we can, to keep you engaged and to work within your means with different payment arrangements and things like that. So. So if the person on the line is not really working with you, then that is a and they had called you first. And that is, you know, a pretty obvious sign right there that they're not a legitimate utility representative. Secondly, also, as I mentioned before, a scammer is not going to want to spend any time talking with you about anything other than you're making a payment to them quickly. So if you have questions about say value added products and services, or if you, you know, are having service, you had a service disruption due to a storm or something like that. You can always ask a question about that and see how they handle it. And if they handle it with knowledge, and they actually are able to show a willingness to take the time to understand your issue, then that's a more than likely legitimate utility. Utility representative. If, however, they constantly bring it back to your fictitious outstanding debt, then you know, you're dealing with a scammer.

Dan Seguin 36:53

Finally, Jared, what does success look like for utilities united against scams? What is your hope for the next 5-10 years?

Jared Lawrence 37:05

So, you know, I read my original instead of this dad kind of changes I thought about a little bit more, especially as we have our five year anniversary of Utah united against stamps coming up, but just in just next week, actually. And, you know, I was thinking the knee jerk reaction would be to say, well, I'd like, I'd like us to basically put these scammers out of business so that we don't, so we can disband so that there's no need for utilities united against stamps. I think that that is a you know, a little bit too rosy eyed. Of course, I think that I do like to make these utility imposter scams go away. And then just maintain kind of a, you know, maintain the collaborative, but maintain it in such a way where we're just touching base sharing information about anything that might be looking suspicious in our markets, and making sure that we are keeping scam activity at a minimum and keeping law enforcement and policymakers fully engaged so that scams don't flare back up to the problem that they are right now. So my goal really is to achieve that combination of policy solutions, as well as share operational tactics with partners in telecom and the prepaid card space and the other financial mechanism that the scammers use to shut down the loopholes so that this utility imposter scam goes away. And then utilities, unite against scams is an organization that just means periodically to keep tabs on the market and make sure that things aren't flaring up again.

Dan Seguin 38:44

Jared, this is it. Are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions?

Jared Lawrence 38:52

Sure. Hit me Dan.

Dan Seguin 38:53

Okay, let's start with the first one. What is your favorite word?

Jared Lawrence 38:58

My favorite word this year is 'Yes." It's a nice say that is because we accomplished so many things on the fly, responding to the pandemic, and the important, things that we as utilities had to do to help take care of our communities last year, that previously the answer would have been either No, or it's going to take us a long time to figure that out. So I feel like I and the rest of the industry have been opened up to the power of possibility. And so this is the year of answering all those possibilities with 'Yes.'

Dan Seguin 39:35

Now tell me Jared, what is one thing you can't live without?

Jared Lawrence 39:40

My morning workout!

Dan Seguin 39:42

Okay, moving on. What habit or hobby have you picked up during shelter in place?

Jared Lawrence 39:49

Started making mead. I find it delicious. I'm not sure that those of my family or my wife have the same things.

Dan Seguin 40:01

If you could have one superpower, Jared, what would it be?

Jared Lawrence 40:07

The ability to sleep through the night without waking up for a variety of reasons.

Dan Seguin 40:11

Okay, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?

Jared Lawrence 40:18

I would tell them not to be so shy I was, I was fairly shy. In my pre professional life, and, and even the early years of being in the professional world, and I've come to learn that you miss out on a lot by being shy.

Dan Seguin 40:34

And lastly, what do you currently find interesting in your sector?

Jared Lawrence 40:41

So there are so many interesting things going on. But I think what is most interesting to me, and the reason why I'm excited to be in this industry for at least another 15 years before I'm ready to retire, is that societies have made it one of their central goals to achieve carbon neutrality. And utilities are at the center of that not only in terms of hitting our goals within our companies, but being the ones best positioned to offer solutions to help major industries that are our customers help achieve their carbon neutral goals. And so I think the amount of opportunity and the number of interesting challenges that we face in the utility industry on that front is very exciting to me, and one of the reasons why I'm thrilled to continue to be a utility leader.

Dan Seguin 41:30

Again, thank you for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Jared Lawrence 41:35

I did. This was fantastic. Dan, I hope as you can tell I am really passionate about fighting scammers fighting criminals to take advantage of utility customers and so I welcome any opportunity to talk about this topic.

Dan Seguin 41:48

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening! And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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When a natural disaster strikes, your electricity is at risk. And Canada is no stranger to extreme weather. During these large-scale emergencies, a coordinated effort is needed to aid Canadians – and millions around the globe. Enter the Canadian Red Cross, a leader in providing disaster relief at home and aboard. In episode 103 of thinkenergy, we chat with Guy Lepage, a Disaster Management Volunteer with the organization, to learn more about his role and what it's like having ‘boots on the ground’ during a disaster.

Related links

• The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada
• Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/
• Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Canada has experienced a number of natural disasters in the last number of years in 2022. There was a devastating May long weekend Derecho in Ontario, forest fires and floods in British Columbia. And of course, Hurricane Fiona on the East Coast, to name just a few. For those of us in the energy sector, we know that when disaster strikes, a stable supply of electricity is jeopardized. Electricity represents safety, shelter, sanitation, warmth, and clean water. As extreme weather and other large scale events occur around the world. A coordinated global reach is needed to provide aid to millions. There is one leading organization in particular that comes to mind when you think of disaster relief with the skills, resources and people to mobilize in almost any region of this world. I'm talking about the International Red Cross. When it was created back in 1863, the Red Cross the objective was to protect and assist victims of armed conflict. Of course, their work has expanded to many types of crises, including disasters caused by extreme weather events. In total, the Red Cross has a network of more than 80 million people across the world that they can draw on to help in times of need, many right here at home. So here's today's big question. As leaders in emergency preparedness, response and execution, what is it like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. Our guest on the show today is Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Gi has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. The Red Cross stands ready to help people before, during and after a disaster. As a member of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, the Canadian Red Cross is dedicated to helping people and communities in Canada and around the world in times of need, and supporting them in strengthening their resilience. Guy. Welcome to the show.

Guy Lepage 03:16

Thanks for having me.

Dan Seguin 03:17

Guy, perhaps you can start by telling us how long you've been with the Canadian Red Cross. And what inspired you to get involved?

Guy Lepage 03:27

You'll recall back in 2005, 17 years ago, Hurricane Katrina hit the Deep South and of course, that made headlines around the world and then was working for the provincial government at the time and the premier at the time. Dalton McGuinty was contacted by the Canadian Red Cross asking him to send 100 members of the Ontario Public Service to help the American Red Cross. So I put my hand up as a former journalist to help as a communications or a public affairs officer. And I went to the deep south for three weeks as a public affairs officer and I got to see up close what the Red Cross does, whether it's American Canadian, choose your country, we all work under the same guidelines and rules. So you know, I saw how it was done. And so I came home and I said, Okay, I've been to the Deep South, what can I do in my own backyard. And that's when I started thinking about all the courses and the training I should have had before we're going to the Deep South. And it was just an amazing experience and the start of my Red Cross career. Now I can tell you that before I worked for the province, I worked as a journalist in Ottawa for the Ottawa Citizen and CJ wait gender Max Keeping for the your listeners who remember Max, and they covered disasters from house fires to train derailments to, you know, high winds, tornadoes, and there was one case in Gatineau. Across the river, there was cottage country, where high winds came through and pushed a canoe literally through the walls of a cottage. And it was something out of a movie and I said wow, that's amazing. So when I saw that kind of devastation in person in the Deep South. That's, that's okay. This is where I want to be. And giving my time my efforts as a volunteer is for people who go through this kind of disaster.

Dan Seguin 05:13

Okay. Now, what are some of the roles you've had with the organization?

Guy Lepage 05:20

I guess the main role has been as a personal disaster assistance team member, and I will PDA for short, that's when we respond to house fires. So you know, God forbid you and your family, there's a fire at your home at two o'clock in the morning, two volunteers will show up at your home and make sure you've got a place this day and give you gift cards. So you can buy food and clothing if need be. So I've done that the entire time, my 17 years with the Red Cross. I've also been a site manager, when there is a disaster. For example, in the Ottawa area after the tornadoes a few years ago, there were different shelters set up information centers. So someone had to run those centers to make sure they were properly run and offered the services that were needed. So I've been a site manager. And basically, it's other duties as assigned. The Red Cross is very good at training us to do all kinds of things in emergency management.

Dan Seguin 06:16

Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Now, Curiosity is getting the best of me. Talk to me about the role that was the most difficult. And what was the most memorable?

guy 06:30

Wow, that's kind of like asking a parent which is their favorite child. I mean, I've been on 18 deployments in Canada, the US, Haiti and in Europe. So it's really difficult to choose. But I'll give you an example. This past summer, I was in Budapest, Hungary working with the International Federation of the Red Cross. On the Ukraine relief operation, we all know what's happening overseas. And my role was a public affairs officer or media relations officer to tell people in the media what was going on, from a red cross point of view. And we've held a news conference. And we told people inflation is making life difficult. But more importantly, winter is coming. Even though this was August, in the middle of a heatwave, winter is coming. And it's going to be a major issue. And now, if you look at the stories out of Ukraine, that is a major issue because of hydro shortages, natural gas shortages, and so on. So that's a memorable one because as a volunteer, I was part of a major relief operation, you know, who would have thought there'd be that kind of conflict anywhere in the world in this day and age, closer to home. A couple of years ago, there was a COVID lock down into Szechwan First Nation in northern Ontario, a fly in community. So there was a COVID outbreak, the entire community was locked down. So even the local store where they buy their groceries was locked down. So I was up there, the team of 12, where groceries, supplies were flown in, they were taken to the local hockey arena, where we put together boxes of essentials like milk, butter, bread, canned goods, dry goods, cereals, and so on. And we assembled boxes of these goods, and they were delivered, the boxes were delivered by the military, they were the rangers to every household in the community. So people could feed themselves. I mean, talk about basic, bare basic service that we all need. So that was a challenge because we were in the middle of a cult COVID lockdown community. So we had to really, really respect the rules of social distancing, sanitizing wearing a mask, we were goggles, we weren't gloves. And we stayed in a church because there was no hotel infrastructure, and we had to stay in a church. We slept in, and top tents on the floor of the church. And whenever that was the only time I could be without wearing a mask. And as soon as you step out of your tent, you have to wear a mask just because we have to protect ourselves. So that's memorable. But I guess the most memorable cases for me then, is when I show up at two o'clock in the morning, and I'm dealing with a family or an individual who's just been burnt out of their home, their apartment, and they've lost everything that they own. And they just have no idea how they're going to cope with this. Because first responders after firefighters, we're the next people they see wearing the red cross vest, and I'm there to tell them, are you okay? We're going to get you a place to live, a safe place to stay. We're going to give you gift cards for clothing, gift cards for food to help you get back on your feet. And people are so thankful. And I tell you the hugs. And I know it sounds strange to say this in a COVID environment. But the hugs I've received over the years from people who are so, so grateful. It makes it all worthwhile. Whether it's getting up at two o'clock in the morning or responding at two o'clock in the afternoon. People are so appreciative, so those are the big memories I take away from this.

Dan Seguin 10:05

Okay. I read that you've assisted in some big operations all over the world. Can you tell us what some of those were, and perhaps your biggest takeaway from those experiences?

Guy Lepage 10:21

I've been very fortunate then and that I've responded to emergencies across Canada. I've been to three hurricanes in the US, Hurricane Sandy in New York, Hurricane Michael in Florida. And Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Well, the Deep South. I went to Haiti in 2010. And as I mentioned, I went to Europe this past summer. So my biggest takeaway is the resilience of people who are affected by a disaster. Um, yes, the initial shock is overwhelming. I mean, no one ever expects to lose their home to a hurricane or a forest fire or an earthquake or whatever. No one sits around the kitchen table and says, Hey, what will we do if we lose our home. So we arrived, wearing the red cross vest to work with local, other responders and governments and we came to the rescue to help them rebuild their lives. So the resilience of people when they get over the shock, they are so appreciative of the work that we are offering the relief we're offering, rather, and they start immediately to rebuild their lives, where am I and my family going to stay? How we're going to feed ourselves and clothe ourselves and get back to normal. So that is, that is the one constant that I can share with you. And the other is, of course, how they are so appreciative. So it doesn't matter where you're from, it is where it happens. They are so happy that the Red Cross and other responders are there to help.

Dan Seguin 11:51

Okay, deep. I'm probably going to embarrass you just a little bit. In November 2021, you received the Order of the Red Cross, considered the Canadian Red Cross highest award, it recognizes extraordinary people who have provided outstanding services at home and abroad. Can you tell us what your service and that honor has meant to you?

Guy Lepage 12:21

Other than my wedding day, and the birth of my children, it's the highest honor of my life, because to be recognized, to do something that I enjoy, and something that I get a whole lot more out of, than what I put in, was just a complete shock. It was emotional, it was overwhelming. I mean, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. So I don't mind telling you that I cried, it was so overwhelming. And, you know, most, I'd say all volunteers with the Red Cross and even outside of the organization, don't do this for the accolades. We do it because we like to volunteer, we like to help people in a time of crisis. And in my case, because I've been doing this for 17 years, I enjoy it so much, I will keep doing it as long as I can. And as I've just mentioned, I get a whole lot more out of it than what I put in. Let me put that into context. Yes, it's a lot of hard work, I deploy for two weeks, three weeks a month, I'm away from my family, my friends, I'm out of my comfort zone, long, stressful days. But in return, I work with other like minded volunteers from around the world. I learned from them, I help people in a time of need. And I tell the new volunteers that I train in my backyard, that you will get warm and fuzzies when you help people. Now by that, you know, we've all helped people in a time in our lives. And if you help someone move a friend of yours, having a bad day and try to console them either on the phone or in person, you know, you feel good about yourself, because you've helped someone you've done something for someone else, you know, because you want to not because you have to or you get paid or anything like that. So I've had the opportunity to do that on a bigger scale. So I've had a ton of warm and fuzzies in my career. All this to say that the Order of the Red Cross was just unexpected, but an incredible, incredible honor. Very good. Very good.

Dan Seguin 14:20

I think it's fair to say that the Red Cross is synonymous with disaster relief. For those that don't know, can you highlight how the Canadian Red Cross gets activated in communities?

Guy Lepage 14:33

That's a very good question. Because every time I go out, regardless of if it's a local fire or something big, you know, people say wow, you know, how do you guys do it? We didn't call or you know, we didn't know you guys did this. Most people need to know that we don't just show up on our own. We work with the local municipality, the local government, provincial federal, depending on where the disaster is. We are invited to assist. You may already know that in Ontario, most municipalities by law have to have an emergency management plan in place, which means when there is a need for a shelter, they have designated a school or a community center or even a church as to where the Red Cross and other organizations can do their thing. So we work with all levels of government and local municipalities, other first responders just to deliver the emergency aid that's needed at the time. Now, this could be an emergency lodging shelter, as I said, in a community center, for example, we could set up a reception center where people can get information, they can get gift cards, personal services, or reunite with their families. We offer a wide variety of services. But again, I want to stress that we are invited by the local municipality or level of government that needs assistance, and then we come to the rescue.

Dan Seguin 15:55

Okay. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had 100 year floods, tornadoes, a Derecho, heat waves, and multiple wind and ice storms. A lot of these events result in lengthy power outages. I know the Canadian Red Cross has been involved with boots on the ground for some of our emergencies here in the nation's capital. What does a typical operation look like?

Guy Lepage 16:26

Every disaster is different. So the first thing that we do is first boots on the ground, work with local governments to assess how bad is the damage caused by, as you mentioned, ice storm, a windstorm, heat waves, tornadoes, and so on. And then we call in the volunteers, the staff, you know, the personnel and the supplies needed to meet the demand. That is the first thing because if you don't know how bad things are, you can't respond appropriately. Now, once we determine what's needed, then we bring in the troops and we bring in the gear and we bring in the gift cards that we need to meet the demand. For example, after the tornado in Ottawa, back in 2018, I was deployed to Gatineau to work at one of the shelters that was set up there where people were staying, and we're also showing up to be assessed for gift cards and so on. So by the time I arrived, the people who had done the advance work knew how many people were needed to work at the shelter. I was one of the site managers, and how many volunteers were needed to meet the demand at the time. So that is the key. How does the operation work? We assess then we bring in what's the personnel and the supplies that are needed to meet the demand.

17:44

Okay. Now, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what are some of the ways the Red Cross team helps residents during a crisis?

Guy Lepage 17:55

That's a very good question. We help in a number of ways. The first one would be an emergency shelter, if people have been burned out of their homes, or they just can't go home for whatever reason. And they don't have the funds to go to hotels or they're no hotels available. or for whatever reason, they just have nowhere else to go, they can come to the shelter which can be in a school in a church and a community center. We will set up cots with Red Cross blankets, so people have a place to stay. We set them up to have an area for single men, an area for single women, an area for families, an area for families with family members who need assistance, you know, wheelchairs, that kind of thing. We also set up reception centers where people can show up to get information, they can show up to get gift cards, or just have a shoulder to cry on. We have people who are trained to deal with the psychological impact that disasters have on people. And I can tell you that is as important as giving people a place to stay and gift cards to eat food and clothing. Because it is such a shock. And some people have difficulty dealing with it and they need specialized care. We will distribute funds through gift cards, as I mentioned, and will provide emergency items. For example, hygiene kits, you know, you've lost everything in your home, you don't have your toothpaste, your toothbrush, you don't have your shampoo, you don't have the basics of life that we all come to depend on. We will supply those kinds of things as well. So we are there to help people get back on their feet. And we do the best we can and I think we do a pretty good job. We're always learning to, you know, to get better. But I believe having been around as long as I have. Most of the time things work really, really well.

Dan Seguin 19:43

Now Guy, I read each year the Canadian Red Cross helps more than 100,000 people in Canada. How do people volunteer? What kind of roles are there? And is there a minimum time commitment

Guy Lepage 19:59

There are several ways for people to get involved. The first is emergency management, which is what we've been talking about, and the area I focus on. That's to help people impacted by small or large disasters and emergencies. Now, we're always also looking for Meals on Wheels, delivery drivers, you know, people I think, are familiar with Meals on Wheels. You deliver, you know, hot, nutritious meals to members of the community who are unable to prepare their own food. And, you know, this allows them to stay in their homes for a longer period of time, we have a program called friendly calls, this is where trained Red Cross volunteers or staff members, they talk with adults who are feeling isolated or lonely, for some reason, you know, they've got limited social or family connections, and you know, who feel that they could benefit from having a more social interaction. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, there are a lot of people who were on their own, they couldn't go visit their families. And if you're living by yourself, and you've got no one to talk to, it can have a very negative impact on your well being. So this friendly calls program, you know, someone will pick up the call and say, Hey, Daniel, how you doing? Let's talk and talk about your family, talk about the weather, talking about whatever, just to have a social connection, so you're not by yourself. And we're also looking for transportation drivers, you know, to get people, elderly or disabled people in the community who are unable to use public transportation or other private means. So there are many ways to get involved in the redcross.ca has a lot of information about that. And every program is different. And as far as your minimum commitment, you know, for example, here in Durham Region, and I'm sure it's the same in the Ottawa area. My disaster management volunteers have to fill out their availability for 32 hours a month, and you say, Wow, that sounds like a lot. No, it's not because you're not going to be out and about doing 32 hours worth of work. You're just available for 32 hours a month. And if there isn't, if there's no fire, or no emergency, you don't do anything. Okay, so every program is different. But I want to make the stress the point, again, Daniel, that you'll feel so good about the amount of time that you donate to the organization, whether it's emergency management or as Meals on Wheels, delivery, driver friendly calls, however you choose to get involved, you will feel so good about donating your time and your expertise, that the four hours, 10 hours, whatever the number of hours you volunteered for, will make you feel so good.

Dan Seguin 22:39

Okay, follow up question here. Are you seeing an increase in the need for volunteers? And if so, why?

Guy Lepage 22:47

There are many reasons why there's an increase in the need for volunteers. You know, we've all talked about climate change, and how that that's increased the number of weather related disasters and you look at British Columbia with the flooding, fall of 2021, the forest fires. Those are just a couple of major incidents in Canada and around the world. When it was in Europe this summer, there were massive forest fires all across Europe with an incredibly hot and dry summer that was happening over there. So the more disasters happen, we need more volunteers to step up and deliver the services that we need to deliver. You know, you look at Manitoba flooding, British Columbia flooding I just mentioned mentioned earlier, every spring, they flood out in that community, and they're evacuated to other communities in northern Ontario, where they're living in hotels, until the water recedes, and then they go home. So I've responded to Timmins Ontario, for example, where I was a site manager, making sure that the tuck shops that we operated in hotels were fully stocked where people could get their deodorant, their diapers, their baby food, whatever, why they lived at the hotel. So we are always looking for new people because things happen. And you know, we've helped 9000 people this year and provided over $300 million in recovery funding across the country. I doubt very much that amount is going to go down in 2023. That's just the reality. One more example I can give you. Hurricane Fiona hit the Maritimes on September 24. I was in Nova Scotia in November. And we were still giving out $500 gift cards to people affected by the storm. Two months later. We've helped in the Maritimes. We've provided 5700 emergency items to people. And we've had 520 people, volunteers and staff respond, you know from across the country. We've had seven 6000 conversations with people who needed to talk to someone about hey, I'm having some real psychological issues here, this is having a major impact on my mental well being. So you know, 45 Oh sorry 45 reception centers were set up across the Maritimes. So that's just with one storm, one disaster. So, you know, we've got to be ready to respond to the next disaster which will happen, of course, with a warning or with a little warning. So that's why we are always looking for new people.

Dan Seguin 25:24

Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters, I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters, what is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?

Guy Lepage 25:47

House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times as people leave stuff on the stove, on attended, it spreads, fire starts and spreads, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives and but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assist the family to make sure they have lodging they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And then we're an emergency service. So after three days, and people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can't do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we will give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any any kind of disaster and, and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building is evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter and a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.

Guy Lepage 28:00

Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes,

Guy Lepage 28:13

I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you know, leave something unattended, and, and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where there were indeed mum and dad and three kids living in an apartment. And one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out get out. So we responded, they went to some friends, a friend's location too. So we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has soot on her face caused by the fire. And she starts crying and the teardrops are rolling down her cheeks through statements and I'll always remember that image because she was crying a) because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis. We will of course, but if you can prevent it that's even better.

Dan Seguin 29:52

This next one is important to many of our listeners. Often we feel powerless during an emergency, particularly when we lose electricity for an extended period of time. What are your recommendations on how people can prepare for emergencies? Is three days still the golden rule to follow?

Guy Lepage 30:15

Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours three days from now, from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire, whatever the situation, can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bays, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water. And we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and cook two liters. To wash and bait. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener, have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio. So you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning, I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight, there was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, you know, last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition, I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half, what am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication, enough pet food and enough water, enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.

Dan Seguin 32:55

Okay, Guy, are there special considerations for seniors, or other vulnerable groups that we should be aware of?

Guy Lepage 33:05

Medication is the most important one, because I'm generalizing here, of course, but more seniors that need medication than younger adults. But even anybody can need medication. So you've got to ensure you have enough medication on hand at all times. You know, certainly for three days in case you cannot get out for whatever reason. I mean, if a senior is living on his or her own, and runs out of medication, and in a family member who normally takes care of them can't make it, that is a major problem. So you have to plan for every scenario.

Dan Seguin 33:42

Now, besides emergency response, what other programs does the Canadian Red Cross provide that people might not be aware of?

33:51

There are several programs and everything I'm going to share with you is available on the redcross.ca first aid and CPR courses. And you know, we all know we should have this course. I've taken it because I have to. I'm a Red Cross volunteer. But you know, you hear oh, yeah, I'll get to that one day. And then you have a family member who has a heart attack or needs, you know, cuts themselves badly. How do we stop the bleeding? That kind of thing. So having a first aid and CPR course under your belt is highly recommended. Transportation: we offer transportation services for those in need that mentioned you know, elderly and disabled people in the community who can't use public transportation. You know, we'll keep people connected in their community by providing this kind of affordable transportation, whether it's medical appointments, even social gatherings or to go shopping, you know, that's another service that we provide meals on wheels. We need drivers to make sure those meals get to the people that need them. This helps people stay in their homes by making sure they eat a healthy diet. They have a healthy diet. We have a mobile food bank, and this service delivers food to persons who are unable to access food banks due to omitted or temporary disabilities, the friendly calls program, that's when you know, someone calls people who live by themselves and who can get lonely. We heard all kinds of stories during the pandemic, where people, because of pandemic rules, couldn't go out and visit friends and family. So this friendly calls program really helps people connect with those who just can't get out of their homes and are lonely. And it's really does make a huge difference. So, like I said, all kinds of different services for different interests and all the details are@redcross.ca.

Dan Seguin 35:34

Okay, finally, with everything you've experienced, and witnessed, what are you grateful for?

Guy Lepage 35:44

I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful for my family. And I'm grateful for the experience that I've had with the Red Cross, because it's taught me many things. But the most important thing is to not sweat the small stuff, when I get back from a deployment where people have lost everything they have. And they've got to start from scratch and go through a very stressful time. And then I'm standing in a coffee shop lineup. And I hear people complain about the service or the coffee is too hot, or they got my order wrong or whatever. I just shake my head and said, Come on, guys, you know, first world problems. I'm grateful for everything that I have. And I'm grateful for the opportunities I've been given to help people in time of crisis.

Dan Seguin 36:28

Guy, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?

Guy Lepage 36:35

K, I'm ready.

Dan Seguin 36:36

Okay, cool.

Dan Seguin 36:37

Now, what are you reading right now?

Guy Lepage 36:40

I'm a big Stephen King fan. And I'm reading a book called If It Bleeds. I'm behind on my Stephen King reading, because I know there's another one that's been released, and I'm hoping one of my family members will give it to me for Christmas.

Dan Seguin 36:54

Okay. What would be the name of your boat? If you had one? Or maybe have?

Guy Lepage 37:01

No, I doubt it would either be Val after my mother, or Jane after my wife.

Dan Seguin 37:06

Now, who is someone that you admire?

Guy Lepage 37:09

My mom and my wife! They the two most important people in my life. Who teach me teach me so much. My mother who raised me, of course, and my lovely bride who, you know, married 32 years and is still a source of inspiration and my biggest fan.

Dan Seguin 37:26

Okay, moving on here. Guy, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Guy Lepage 37:34

Oh, wow. I have to say, the resilience of people go through a crisis. I mean, it's, it's so inspiring that people have been knocked down, but they're the get up and shake themselves off and say, Okay, let's start rebuilding our lives. So I think that's, that's magical in its own right.

Dan Seguin 37:53

Okay. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Guy Lepage 38:01

I think initially it was the stress - the underlying stress. And when you think back to 2020, when there was no, no cure, no vaccine. And we are all literally stuck in our homes totally go out to the grocery store and other emergencies. Thoughts that that was difficult to deal with. Now unfortunate that I deal with stress as a volunteer and when in through work. That was, I think, the biggest challenge.

Dan Seguin 38:27

Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie? What are you watching right now?

Guy Lepage 38:36

I'm watching Ryan Reynolds, Canadian actor, as you may know, has his bottom soccer team or English football team over in Wales. And they've done a documentary on that really enjoying that. I'm rewatching Ted Lasso because the World Cup and soccer and football. I mean, I enjoyed it. First time around, and I'm enjoying it now. Anything that makes me laugh, I'm all for.

Dan Seguin 39:02

Well, Guy, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how should they connect?

Guy Lepage 39:15

redcross.ca has all the information that we've talked about, about the services we provide during a disaster following a disaster and even before a disaster. So redcross.ca is definitely the place to go for that kind of information.

Dan Seguin 39:30

Okay, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Guy Lepage 39:37

Thank you so much for having me. It has been a blast. Really enjoy sharing my adventures. I truly am a very lucky man to be able to do this. And as I said, share my adventures and thank you for having me, Dan.

Dan Seguin 39:50

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

View Details

The industrial revolution was yesterday. The electrical revolution is now. Businesses and consumers alike are working to achieve Canada’s net zero targets. We’re seeing bold leadership across the country, innovative solutions across industries. In episode 102 of thinkenergy, we kick off 2023 with some of our favourite guests from the past year. Picking up from our retrospective, Part 2 highlights insights from experts in the energy sector, including Hydro Ottawa’s President and CEO, Bryce Conrad.

Related links

• 2022 Retrospective Part 1: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/advancing-net-zero-part-1-2022-retrospective
• Justin Rangooni, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-rangooni-5063b542/
• Justin Rangooni on thinkenegy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/is-energy-storage-the-missing-link-to-a-clean-energy-future/
• Merran Smith LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/merran-smith-64603b63/
• Merran Smith on thinkenergy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/coming-clean-about-a-clean-electricity-future/
• Bryce Conrad, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-conrad-2ab1b352/
• Bryce Conrad on thinkenergy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/renewable-energys-role-in-net-zero-with-robert-hornung/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is think energy - the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segui n, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.

Dan Seguin 00:28

Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the think energy podcast. And I'm Dan Seguin. Thanks for joining part two of our special holiday podcast as we kick off 2023 with one of the hottest topics in the energy sector net zero. As Canada moves towards its net zero targets, we are seeing companies take bold leadership and adopt new innovations. As they say the Industrial Revolution was yesterday, the electric revolution is now more and more Canadians are working towards their own net zero goals, not only because they feel compelled to do the policy, but because they feel it's the right thing to do. One look at the extreme weather we experienced across Canada last year, may give us a glimpse of why that is. For part two of our special holiday podcast we're focusing on Canada's transition to net zero, and how it will shape the future. I've gathered three of my favorite guests from the past year, and what they had to say about one of the biggest topics of the year. My first guest is Justin Rangoon, the Executive Director of Energy Storage Canada, energy storage means more than just batteries. There are many different technologies that can offset peak electricity consumption periods, ultimately preventing the need for expensive emission heavy infrastructure that could lead us away from our clean energy goals. Energy storage can help meet demand spikes and support wide scale deployment of renewable energy sources. Here's Justin to talk about some of the benefits.

Justin Rangooni 02:21

I think the best response would be I found a new analogy. And it was from the New Yorker in a recent article that talked about a bold energy storage provider in terms of optimizing the grids, the assets that are already on the grid. So what they talked about is when in situations when the wind is blowing, the sun is shining, the hydro, the water is flowing, the nuclear plants are humming, energy storage allows the electricity grid to inhale. And then when wind stopped blowing, or the sun's not shining, or the water is not flowing, or the nuclear plants aren't humming, what energy storage allows the grid is to exhale, and deliver that electricity to homes and businesses and charge devices. And so that's what energy storage can do is to optimize what it does if it's part of the overall solution, in terms of balancing the grid and optimizing what you have energy storage can do that. Because one of the benefits of energy storage is that it's portable. It can be situated anywhere in the province or in the country. And of every size and of all the various technologies available. There's lots to choose from. And as system planners can use that as a Swiss army knife to make it work where it has to. So we can balance the grid and optimize the assets and provide reliability. So energy storage is that solution provider for the energy system. So where did you serve can play that critical role of storing electricity when it's generated at times when maybe you don't need it. So instead of curtailing or spilling water, or nurses or maybe importing it or exporting it at a loss for that excess surplus generation, energy storage can store that electricity. So when there's peaks in demand, energy storage can use that the system planners can use the electricity that is stored during those peak demands, and to really start leveling out that need for the new peaker plants or existing peaker plants for that matter. So it's really storing the energy for future use. And that's why we're so excited about energy storage.

Dan Seguin 04:19

The pressure to tackle pollution and climate change is increasing as countries around the globe are eliminating greenhouse gases and transitioning away from fossil fuels. This shift towards a cleaner future involves a lot of moving parts especially as it relates to cleaning Canada's energy sector. Marren Smith, Founder and Chief Innovation Officer at clean energy Canada shared her thoughts about whether Canada can affordably and realistically accelerate our clean energy transition to reach our net zero goals.

Marren Smith 04:58

There are three positive changes that I see. One, the costs of these clean energy technologies have dropped significantly. So the solutions are cheaper. Secondly, is that we really moved past the climate debate in Canada. And thirdly, is electric vehicles. And I just want to talk a bit about each of those if that's okay, so the costs of clean energy technologies, many people don't understand that. Over this last decade, the cost of solar has dropped yet again, it's dropped another 90%. Over the last decade, the cost of batteries, which are the heart of an electric vehicle, have dropped about 90%, and wind has dropped about 20%. And so, you know, a dozen years ago, clean energy Canada was talking about this coming, we need to prepare Canada needs to be aware as an oil and gas producer, we need to be looking at this clean energy transition. But now, it's here, these technologies are ready for primetime. And the economic opportunities are there to create jobs here in Canada around those clean energies. So that's significant. And the second one is I think we've all lived through and seen in the news, this debate about whether Canada should be acting on climate, whether it's real, whether Canada has any responsibility, whether it's feasible, and that's now become a real global conversation. And there's a clear message globally that we need to act now. And, you know, we've had over these last six years, the federal government, with the leadership that's aligning with those global efforts to act on climate. And in fact, this federal government has created the first climate plan that Canada had to meet our climate targets, and they're now really putting it into action. And so that's been a significant and positive shift that we're actually moving to action. And thirdly is around electric vehicles. And, you know, I just have to say them specifically. Because, in my observation, they really show Canadians what the transition looks like. It kind of looks like what it used to be, you know, an electric vehicle and a gas fired vehicle, they look pretty similar. But people are seeing how much better they are that they are more affordable to drive. And especially with today's price of gas, you know, if you're plugging in and charging your car, you know, your Chevy Bolt and getting 400 kilometers for somewhere, you know, depending on where you live in Canada, five to $10 versus what it's costing to fill up your car that's significant. So electric vehicles and how fast they have come online, how we have seen, the manufacturers shift is to go from we're resisting this to this as the future we want to be out in front and competing to be the ones who are going to be producing them. So that dramatic shift, it's really showing how we can link this decarbonisation climate action with the economy, that our industries can be successful and that we can really move forward towards Net Zero towards decarbonisation towards cleaner energies and continue with a strong economy if we do it right if we act now.

Dan Seguin 08:35

And my last guest is Bryce Conrad, President and CEO of Hydro Ottawa. Yep, my boss. Otherwise, the energy ecosystem is unique, with long standing localized and green generation. In fact, hydro Ottawa is the largest municipally owned producer of clean, renewable energy in Canada, with 131 megawatts of total green generation capacity, enough to power approximately 110,000 homes a year. Bryce joined us on the program early in 2022, to discuss the inspiration behind the company's decision to make its entire operation net zero by 2030. His answer was surprising.

Bryce Conrad 09:28

So YouTube, you can go back and view all these old speeches in March minute.But look, if you go back to JFK, in 1961, so he does this speech before for the joy of the House and Senate. And you know, it's not a long speech, I'd encourage everyone to go watch it. There's about a minute long clip that's irrelevant anyway.And in that speech, he says, we are going to go to the moon before the end of the decade, so he's doing this in 61. Obviously, they went to the moon in 69. So, as part of that he does something that people don't do enough of these days, right? He literally says, we're gonna go to the moon. So that's our objective, and I have no idea how we're gonna get there, I'm paraphrasing him. Obviously, I have no idea how we're gonna get there, the technology doesn't exist, the fuel doesn't exist, the booster rocket technology doesn't exist. And that kind of the capsule necessary to get someone to and from the moon doesn't exist today. So he's making this bold announcement, and then acknowledging that he doesn't know how they're going to do it. And I thought, that's just so quite frankly, refreshing in this day and age where everything is kind of prepackaged, right? Like, we know what we're going to do this next two years, but we already know that we've got it in the bag, and here's how it's going to be done. I like the idea of setting the big, hairy, audacious goal for the company and saying, I've said this to the management team, I have no clue how we're gonna get there. I know what we need to start doing. But I don't know what the answer is. But I work with some of the smartest people in the game. And I know that if, if they're empowered to do this, and we put our minds to this, we will do this, like, you know, and that's what Kennedy counted on 61. And that's lo and behold, but you know what happened? So, when I liken it to the moonshot, it's just that it's the big, hairy, audacious goal, without any real clear roadmap as to how to accomplish that goal. And I think quite frankly, that's what serves us best is when we don't necessarily have the answers we have to make up. We have to figure our way through this sort of stuff. And I see that every day at the company, right? If you look back at how we handled the tornadoes, if you look back at the way we handle the floods, if you look at the way we handle our system, yeah, there's a lot of prescriptive stuff. Yes, there's a lot of this is how we do things. But you know, there are a lot of days we throw out the rulebook, you throw out the manual, and you have to figure your way forward. And that's when this company is at its best. So that's the moonshot.

Dan Seguin 12:06

So thanks for joining me for part two of our advancing Net Zero Holiday special. We'll be back in two weeks on Monday, January 16, to be precise to kick off 2023 with all new shows, interesting guests and topics. I'm sure there'll be a few surprises also. Thanks for listening, folks. Happy New Year, everyone. Cheers.

Dan Seguin 12:32

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

View Details

We are at the start of an electrical revolution. A spark of change is flaming across the country – renewable energy, electrification, the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act. Conversations have become actions. Industries are united, working together to achieve Canada’s net-zero targets. In Episode 101 of the thinkenergy podcast, host Dan Séguin looks back at some of our favourite guests from 2022, sharing insights and ideas about the transition to net zero and how it’s shaping our future.

Related links

• Caroline Lee, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-lee-12345cl/
• Caroline Lee, Twitter: https://twitter.com/caroline_lee2
• Caroline Lee on thinkenegy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/the-canadian-climate-institutes-big-switch/
• Catherine Abreu, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-abreu-574764250/
• Catherine Abreu, Twitter: https://twitter.com/catabreu_
• Catherine Abreu on thinkenergy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/the-journey-to-a-net-zero-future/
• Robert Hornung, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-hornung-3220145b/
• Robert Hornung, Twitter: https://twitter.com/roberthornung2?lang=en
• Robert Hornung on thinkenergy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/renewable-energys-role-in-net-zero-with-robert-hornung/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is Think Energy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the think energy podcast. And I'm Dan Seguin. With electrification, renewable energy, electric cars and policy to reduce our reliance on oil and gas. 2022 showed that we are at the start of an electrical revolution. 2022 marked a transformational year in numerous industries, the energy sector, the transportation sector, the building and construction sector and the technology sector. All of these industries became allies in the country's goal to eliminate greenhouse gas emissions and work towards achieving Canada's Net Zero targets. The Canadian Net Zero Emissions Accountability Act, which became law on June 29 2021, enshrined in legislation Canada's commitment to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. But it was this year that we saw the momentum begin in a big way. For part one of our special holiday podcast, we're focusing on Canada's transition to net zero and how it will shape the future. I've gathered some of my favorite guests from the past year, and thought I'd reshare what they had to say about one of the biggest topics of the year. My first guest is Caroline Lee, mitigation research lead with the Canadian Climate Institute. According to the Canadian Climate Institute, the country's leading climate change policy research organization, all roads to net zero pass through electricity. I know we've mentioned this many times on the show, but it bears repeating how Canada produces some of the cleanest electricity in the world. 80% of the electricity generated across Canada comes from sources completely free of greenhouse gas emissions, Caroline does an excellent job at defining net zero. And the premise behind the Canadian Climate Institute report, The Big Switch,

Caroline Lee 02:44

Maybe I can start with this first explanation around what the net zero goal actually means, you know, Canada, just recently committed to achieving net zero emissions by 2050. And this is an ambitious goal. And what that means is that Canada has agreed to really zero out our emissions to get our emissions as close as we can to zero, and then whatever emissions are very expensive, or technically very difficult to get out of the economy than we offset in some way. So again, this is an ambitious goal, there's a lot that needs to be done, especially in electricity to support that goal. And the reason why we say all roads to net zero paths through electricity is that when we looked at all the studies that model a trajectory for Canada reaching net zero, there really was no credible path without this switch towards electricity. And without making the generation of electricity cleaner. So we really saw tackling electricity as being critical to the achievement of Canada's netzero goals. And maybe I can just say it and in simple terms, three key reasons why that switch is so important. So first of all, electricity itself when you use it, it doesn't burn fossil fuel, of course, so therefore, it doesn't release greenhouse gas emission. So we all know that if you're driving an Eevee, you're not generating greenhouse gas emissions directly. Now, of course, we also know that the production of electricity can generate emissions. So we can use fossil fuels like coal and natural gas to generate electricity. So that's where you can get some emissions. But what's really positive news in Canada and really around the world is that we're making quite significant progress, especially here in Canada, to reduce those emissions associated with producing electricity. And now that the federal government has a commitment to achieve Net Zero electricity by 2035. The country now has a clear mandate that we're going to be eliminating by and large those emissions associated with producing electricity. So that's a really big thing is that electricity in the future could really be this conduit. for using fully non emitting electricity from the beginning to the end. And then a third reason why electricity is so important is that it's just more efficient. So, driving an electric vehicle is actually three to four times more efficient than using fossil fuels to drive that vehicle. And that's because you lose so much more heat, there's a lot of energy that's wasted when you're combusting fossil fuel. So, because of those three reasons, electricity does seem to play a really critical role in achieving our climate goals.

Dan Seguin 05:31

My next guest is the renowned Catherine Ebru, Executive Director of Destination Zero. Catherine talks about the costs and the rising volatility that exists around the world when it comes to subsidizing fossil fuel sources. Catherine digs into how renewables are not only more reliable, but also more resilient than many people give them credit for.

Catherine Abreu 05:58

The concern over rising energy costs is a huge one. You know, we've actually seen that rear its head pretty substantially this year, in the late half of 2021, with rising energy costs across Europe, relating mostly to the rising costs of gas. And I think actually, a big lesson that we're learning from the energy cost crisis that many parts of Europe and other parts of the world are experiencing right now is that the fossil fuel market is actually quite volatile. And that volatility has impacted Canada quite a bit as a major oil and gas producer already. But it's starting to impact not only, you know, production and jobs related to that production of fossil fuels, it's starting to also now penetrate energy systems that rely on those fossil fuels. And so we need to be correcting for that volatility. And a part of how we do that actually, and this is maybe counterintuitive to a lot of folks, because there's a lot of misguiding rhetoric out there around renewable energy. But part of how we make energy systems more resilient is by incorporating more renewable energy and more distributed renewable energy generation into those systems. And then another important piece is energy efficiency. So you make those energy systems really lean as much as you can, by cutting energy waste, right? So we want to be making sure that we're not losing energy as it's transferred from where it's created to where it's used. We want to make sure that when it's used, it's used as efficiently as possible. And so those investments in energy efficiency help make the energy system more stable. And then when we make that energy system run on renewable energy, and when we're talking about renewable energy, we're talking about a mix here of water, when sun and storage, of course, then we see that there is a new kind of resilience put into that system. Because often those energy sources can help us lock in long term prices that are much more stable than the volatile energy prices associated with fossil fuels. So that is the kind of longer term solution that we're looking to hear about in the long run, that can really offer much lower and more stable energy prices for people. But unfortunately, we've heard a lot of misguided, or I think, intentionally misrepresented rhetoric around renewable energy and having a high cost. And the only reason that it appears to have a high cost is because fossil fuel energy has been subsidized so heavily for the last century by governments, that those fossil fuels tend to have an artificially lower cost. But we're paying for that artificially lower cost as taxpayers. And so part of the equation here is leveling out the playing field between fossil fuels and renewable energy by supporting the growth of renewable energy and stopping subsidies to fossil fuels.

Dan Seguin 09:03

My last guest on part one of our holiday retrospective episode is Robert Horning CEO of the Canadian Renewable Energy Association. Robert joined me back in February of 2022, and talked about why he believes when and solar are Canada's answer to decarbonizing the electricity system. He also details what it's really going to take to achieve Canada's netzero goals.

Robert Hornung 09:35

Well, I think first off, we have to sort of look at some of the research that's been done different studies that have looked at what are the pathways to get to net zero greenhouse gas emissions? We've just said it's an enormous challenge. How do we get there? And those studies consistently show that to get to net zero, you have to first and foremost decarbonize electricity production so that you're not producing greenhouse gas emissions from electricity anymore. And then you have to expand that electricity production because you're going to want to use that electricity to substitute for fossil fuels in areas like transportation and in buildings and industries. Now another thing that those studies consistently show is that the majority of that new electricity that we're going to need is going to come from wind and solar. And why is that? The simple reason is because wind and solar are the lowest cost options for new electricity production in the world today. And our vision developed an illustrative scenario, which is consistent with the findings of these netzero studies, which sort of assumes we're going to need to double electricity production, we assume that two thirds of that new electricity production is going to come from wind and solar. And that leads us to the calculation that that means you have to expand wind and solar to be in Canada tenfold in the next 30 years. And that's why it's an urgent call to action. That's a mammoth task. It's achievable. But we have to get started now. I mean, I think we're already starting to see some real evidence of this transition occurring, although we're at an early stage. So in the transportation sector, everyone's aware, we're moving towards a world dominated by electric vehicles in the future, you see it in the choices made by auto manufacturers, consumers, etc. Going forward. But it's really more about electric mobility. You also see a growing number of e-bikes, for example, going forward, we see increasing investments in the electrification of public transportation. So there's a real drive there in terms of the transportation sector. In terms of buildings, heat pumps are going to be critical as a technology that allows us to reduce our reliance on natural gas for heating purposes going forward. And within industry, within heavy industry, we already see announcements being made from steel producers who are switching to electric arc furnaces, the aluminum smelters, but are starting to electrify and across all of those areas, electrification is not the answer for everything. There, there are applications where electricity is not going to be the solution. But for many of those applications, you can actually use clean electricity to produce hydrogen, green hydrogen if it's produced from renewable electricity. And that green hydrogen can then be used to support things like freight transportation, or long distance transportation, or other industrial processes. So electricity really will have a central role to play. And again, we're starting to see that transition occur. But again, we have to accelerate those efforts especially if we're going to achieve our targets.

Dan Seguin 12:37

Net zero is going to continue to be a hot topic of conversations and 2023. Thanks for joining me for part one of our advancing Net Zero holiday special. Tune in on January 2 For part two. And thanks for listening, folks. Have a happy and safe holiday everyone. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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The energy sector is evolving at lightning speed, and customer expectations are at an all-time high. As are concerns about electricity itself – how it’s produced, how reliable it is, how much it costs, and how efficiently it’s powering our lives. So, how are utilities planning to meet expectations and address these concerns? In episode 100 of the thinkenergy podcast, we sit down with Hydro Ottawa’s Chief Customer Officer, Julie Lupinacci, to discuss what electricity customers want and the solutions we’re delivering.

Related links

• Julie Lupinacci, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliejlupinacci/
• Julie Lupinacci, Twitter: https://twitter.com/juliejlupinacci
• Power outage safety: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/outage-centre/outage-safety
• Energy saving resources: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy
• 2021–2025 strategic direction: https://hydroottawa.com/en/about-us/our-company/our-reports

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Transcript:

Think_Energy_Podcast_EP100_V2

What Electricity Customers Want

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

customers, ottawa, working, hydro, people, electricity, programs, julie, city, planning, energy, pandemic, talk, utilities, component, industry, happening, community, cases, helping

SPEAKERS

Dan Seguin, Julie Lupinacci

Dan Seguin 00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today's show marks the 100th podcast episode. Woohoo. It's hard to believe that we've already reached this milestone. I want to thank everyone that has worked behind the scenes on the show, our incredible guests who graciously share their time and expertise. And of course, dear listener, thank you for tuning into our program. It's truly been an honor for me to share information about the energy sector and all of the amazing people that work in this industry. So with that, let's get on with today's 100th podcast episode. As we discussed over many interviews, the energy landscape is evolving at lightning speed. Those innovations and changes are coming fast and furious. And there's a lot for customers to absorb. It's clear that perhaps more than at any other time in history, customers are thinking about their electricity, how it's made, how reliable it is, how much it costs, and how they can be more in control of it to power their lives. What customers want and expect is changing the electricity sector. It's changing how utilities do business, how they communicate, and what service offerings they provide. customer expectations have never been higher, and utilities must evolve, innovate and provide exceptional expertise, programs and technology to give customers what they want and expect from a modern utility from smart home tech that can help customers manage their device and overall consumption to home generation technology like solar panels, batteries for energy storage, and incentives for installing goes renewables and even how to better prepare for a changing climate, more storms and an increase in frequent and prolonged power outages. So, here's today's big question. How are utilities planning to meet the expectations of today's customer and their needs? Today's guest is my boss, Julie Lupinacci. As the Chief Customer Officer at Hydro Ottawa, Julie is responsible for developing and implementing the customer strategy, transforming the total customer experience and guiding the direction of the business in terms of customer needs. She provides oversight for customer service marketing, product development, external communications, Public Affairs, corporate reputation, and the overall branding strategies. With more than 15 years in Customer Care, sales and marketing, Julie has a wide background in business including project management, customer and vendor relations, international partner program management, procurement, sales, marketing, and program development. Wow. Julie, thanks for joining us today. Now, you've been in the electricity industry approximately five years now, maybe a little more in comparison to your experience with customers in other industries? How are electricity customers different? How are their needs unique?

Julie Lupinacci 04:11

Yeah, so it's been interesting. And when I when I got this question, I was thinking back on the last five years and how much I've learned about the industry and learn about our customers in particular and I would say the basis of what's different is is the industry we're in right like Hydro Ottawa is a this is essentially provides an essential service to our customers, which didn't happen in my previous in my previous world. So the fact that the customers rely on us for a product that is so essential in so many aspects of their lives. For some customers, it's a matter of life and death, right? That in itself changes how we work with our customers and what their needs are, and what we need to support. So that reality is something that we have to hold in the forefront of everything that we do. The very nature of what customers need from us makes that different, right? The timelines of what they need are tighter. And the criticality of our communications to customers becomes even more heightened. Whether it be a storm, or an outage, or an outage at one person's house, like that doesn't matter, the customer is out of what we need to provide. And the criticality of getting that back in a very condensed time frame, in order for that customer to continue moving forward, becomes essential. So everything becomes a lot tighter and more critical. And I would say the other component of what we provide, it's not a, in some cases, customers don't have a choice right on whether they need electricity or not, like I guess in fundamentally, they could figure that out. But if you've come to rely on electricity for your daily needs, and to run your households, the fact that electricity is now part of your requirements, you don't get to have a choice necessarily do I? Do I want electricity today or tomorrow to put my lights on? Affordability becomes a big component. And it's one that we need to think about for our customers: the choices on how we develop the grid, how we evolve as an organization, we need to keep affordability, sustainability, and the fact that energy needs to be attainable for our customers that has to guide what we do. And that's not true for every of every industry, and definitely not true for the previous ones I've worked for.

Dan Seguin 06:53

Julie, what are the three biggest issues for electricity customers right now?

Julie Lupinacci 07:01

Yeah, I think right now, in the November 2022, or December 2022, as this airs, affordability is probably front of mind, for most customers, the share of wallet is just not going as far with the cost of inflation. I think that's probably the primary issue for electricity customers right now. But I would say that a close second is, what the reliability of this electricity is. So the climate adaptation that we are doing as an entire city, as we're looking at what you know, more extreme weather events that are coming, the reliability of what we provide is probably a close second, right? So they want to be able to afford the commodity that is coming into their house. But they also want to be able to rely on it. And as they're making choices for what their energy future is going to be, as they're making choices about what car they're going to be purchasing next, as they're going to make choices for how they're going to heat and cool their home and making choices about fuel sources. You want to make sure that you're choosing what's reliable and that you know, reliability is there. So I think affordability and reliability are close one and two. And that is sustainable, right? We've got a lot of people that are thinking about their future, their carbon footprint, their net zero. So I think people are looking at how I conserve my energy usage? How am I smart about what I'm doing? And how am I making sure that I'm choosing things that are going to be there for the long haul, right and looking for something that's sustainable, that's good for our planet, but it's going to be around and something that they can count on. Okay,

Dan Seguin 08:53

Now I have a follow up question. What are some of the ways that hydro Ottawa is addressing those customer issues?

Julie Lupinacci 08:59

Yeah, so we're doing a number of different things. So one, I think how we put together plans for the growth of the grid, how we put plans to maintain the grid and evolve the grid is definitely something that we look at with those three things in mind. But also from a customer perspective, we are looking at bringing programs to them to help them have more access and more readily access to that information. So get a hold of their data so they can start making decisions. We're working with the Ministry of Energy on different pricing programs that might make sense according to the different behaviors, not everybody has the same lifestyle. Not everybody operates only you know, in the evenings in their house and people in especially during the pandemic like we have with we've seen very different lifestyle, and workdays come to be. So we're really well Looking at all of those things that are happening here in Ottawa, and marrying programs that make sense both from a pricing perspective, as well as energy choice. So looking at different Evie programs that we are bringing forward, looking at different energy efficiency programs that might be there and getting information into the hands of customers. In particular, there's been a lot of conversation over the last couple years, I'd say maybe a little bit more about netzero. And with the announcements the federal government, provincial, government and even municipal government have made customers are thinking about how they play in that. And there's a lot of questions and hydro Ottawa is providing information to those customers to be able to help them to be informed of what's possible, and then help give programs to get them on pathways to get there for themselves.

Dan Seguin 10:52

We are all aware that Ottawa has had some major major weather events, these past five to six years. What would you say to customers that are worried about reliability, power outages, and restoration?

Julie Lupinacci 11:10

Yeah, weather events have been tough. They're tough fun. And I don't think Ottawa has seen something like this in a very long time, like probably since the 98’ Ice Storm. And I'm not even sure that really measured up to the same impact right of what we saw and what customers dealt with. But what I would, what I would say is hydro Ottawa has put a lot of focus on what we need to do from a grid perspective to adapt to the changing climate that we're seeing here in Ottawa. And that includes those weather events. Like I don't want to pretend that I know more than our chief electricity distribution officer, like I think you interviewed him maybe a couple of weeks ago. And in that podcast, he talks about what we're doing to future proof, the grid against those extreme weather events. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to try to think that I have anything more impactful that he will say on that front. But I will say that, from a front office perspective, from a customer service, from a communications perspective, we are really looking at a lot of those tools, and further modernizing them. And what I mean by that is, is taking a look at some different technology that allows us to receive more phone calls into our system, triage those phone calls, using some cloud based technology, so that not everybody is forced to talk to an individual because even at the height of the storm, like you're not going to have 10,000 people answering phone calls within a couple of minutes of a storm hitting, but we can use technology to triage to allow our customers to know that we know if they are out of power and provide them with the information that we have at that time. So looking at updating some of the telephony software that we have in utilize some of the new technology there. So we are actively working on that. The other component to communications because I think communications really is that biggest avenue for our customers especially during these winter weather events is pushing information out. And we are looking through and working on an SMS text based technology system that allows us to push information out similar to what we're pushing out through our social media channels today. Now sending that information directly to customers either on their iPhone or potentially in their email box however they want to receive those inputs and alerts from hydro Ottawa. We also took some steps to help people become aware like the weather alert, the weather system and the weather alerts that are out there giving people a heads up on systems that are coming through. Like that's, that's one thing. But I think customers want to know, when we're looking at a weather event that's different, right? You'll you'll know when rains coming into Ottawa and you'll get those alerts about snow and all of those things, but not all weather impacts our grid and what we're looking at is to be able to provide an alert system again through through whether it's SMS or an email out directly into customers inboxes so to speak, giving them a heads up when we're watching it differently right and if we're watching it differently, you know, messages are going out make sure phones are charged make sure that you've got blankets make sure you know where your your flashlights and your your candles are. So really concentrate on getting people ready for what they need to do. So there's you know, there's a few steps and you can follow us on hydro ottawa.com to get better details on that. But that's what we're doing and making sure that we're putting that out there. Additionally, we've piloted -Sorry Dan, I got one more. Additionally, we've piloted a battery program. This was used to be able to support some of our capital work. But in the recent storm this year, we use that battery pilot to be able to help some of the most vulnerable customers in Ottawa, that are really relying on electricity to be able to breathe, right and working with the paramedics hand in hand to make sure that these batteries got to those households so that they, you know, had some additional time for us to get the power back on, either to their house or to the community.

Dan Seguin 15:32

Now telling me Julie, what are some of the things customers can do to be better prepared for emergencies? And outages?

Julie Lupinacci 15:42

Yeah, so I think there's a few things that we need to do . I think we need some major awareness about what that is, like, going back to our elementary school days, when we had to plot out the fire, you know, the fire escape plan for our house, right? And go back to thinking about if there's an emergency, do we have an emergency kit together? Right? Do we have bottled water in our systems in our house? Do we have working flashlights, right? Not just flashlights that don't have batteries? But what are those batteries? And they are up to date, right? Making sure that you have them not all over the place, but you know where these flashlights are right? If anybody's like my kids, they come in, they grab the flashlights, and all of a sudden they're in different locations around the house like they need to be, your emergency kit needs to be in one central place so that you know how to get to it, whether the lights are on or off. The other piece is I would, I would make sure that you're following us on our social channels, because we do put information out there. So make sure if you haven't connected with us that you do connect with us. And you can go to our website to find out what those are, I won't, I won't run them off here. But the other piece that I would really strongly suggest is that people go and update their contact information into our database, or into our database, which will become even more crucial as we start sending these alerts and messages directly to you. Right, no longer just through social media but directly to you in your household to be able to let you know what's going. And if I could say one other thing is that I think planning based on our reliability that we've always had, and the experience that you've always had to these dates, it's no longer enough, right? Like Hydro Ottawa is going to do everything that we can to get the power back on. But you need to plan for worst case scenario, you can't plan only for the best case. So having an alternative place to go speaking with family and saying if power is out here, we're going to come over and what do we need to bring? Having those plans in place in advance makes you better equipped to withstand any weather event that comes through that may have an outage associated with it?

Dan Seguin 17:49

Okay, moving on. Hydro Ottawa released its 2021- 2025 strategic direction. Why is that five year plan important? And what are the highlights from a customer perspective that customers should be aware of? Yeah,

Julie Lupinacci 18:08

I think any organization that's not looking five years out, so it's going to be really awakened as you start to figure out what capital planning looks like. Like it doesn't take. You can't build a substation overnight. You cannot bring additional capacity into a city without some plans. And our strategic direction really helps us do that. And it helps put some guideposts in place with regards to keeping us focused, right. There's a lot of new technology that makes shiny things that people want. But really having a strategic direction that allows us to go back to what that Northstar is, what those guiding points are, what is that end goal that we're trying to get to is really important, because cities aren't planned on a dime. And neither is the grid that supports those cities. So that five year plan really looks and works with the city to say, Where are you going? How is growth happening? And then how do we support that? And then, in in line with this strategic direction, we've also taken a very, very big leadership role in in setting ourselves up for net zero and not just us as as as hydro Ottawa, but as a partner with the city of Ottawa as a integral component of the Ontario electricity grid, an integral component of the Canadian grid. And I think that comes with a responsibility to make sure that we're looking forward and making the decisions that have to happen today for some of those assets that are going to be around for that 2050 goal that Canada has. So we're really focused on maintaining the reliability that we've been seeing over the last decade. We've had great reliability here in Ottawa despite some of the storms that have happened. Our reliability numbers continue to Be strong. So making sure that we're continuing to evolve in a smart way. And making sure that we maintain that reliability in line with the growth that's happening in the city, right, where we're seeing not only expansion into some of the other, you know, we're seeing suburbs butting up against each other now, right. And, you know, I'm not even sure if there's a true delineation between Canada and Stittsville. Sometimes, because it's like a bridge, you just go over one, one street, and now you're in the different suburbs. So, that blurring that's happening is fine. So that's the growth that's happening and expanding of the city. But we're also densifying some of the downtown core areas, so we're going upwards. And that requires a different type of planning on the infrastructure that already exists. We need to grow that infrastructure, we need to change how we're adopting those arrows potentially, and then look at planning for vehicle switching from gas to EVs. Right? So the electric, the electric vehicles, how do we support that growth? How do we support some of the growth with buildings that are converting from gas to electricity, or some of the new buildings that are looking at different technology and making sure that as they're building, the capacity is there. So all of those things are aligned within that, that we have an eight point strategy that's there. And, and the customer continues to be the center of that strategy? So as we're making decisions, we're thinking of it through that customer lens? And how is the customer going to be impacted? How is the customer going to work with us, and let's make sure that we're spending money and time and focus energy on ensuring that the electricity grid is there for the needs of the future. And then the last piece that I would put is, we're really looking at streamlining processes for our customers, right, there's a lot of steps that are in place. And in some of those, those process flows, that in some cases, technology allows us to leapfrog for our customers. Many customers don't want to talk to us directly anymore. So they want to use chat functionality, or they want to just be able to go and search a Frequently Asked Questions area, or get a how to documents sent to them so that they can do it, in some cases themselves. And we are hearing that from our customers. And we are taking the steps to make sure that we streamline those processes for that,

Dan Seguin 22:25

Julie, what role does Hydro Ottawa or utilities in general have when it comes to delivering solutions for customers to reduce their consumption and greenhouse gas emissions?

Julie Lupinacci 22:38

So, I think that we have a big responsibility there to keep people informed. I think awareness is pretty key when it comes to energy efficiency. And knowing where you're starting from, I think is a big component. So as utilities, I think we need to constantly ask ourselves, where is the customer in, in their knowledge of what we're trying to get them to do or what they're needing to do or what they're wanting to do. So I would hazard a guess that not many people have a true understanding of what their carbon footprint is, I would hazard a guess that we don't all know what our emission baseline is. So asking people to do something to reduce that. And they don't know what their baseline is, I think I think that's a misstep. So utilities, in general, I think have a responsibility to help customers understand how to do that calculation. And then identify pathways and programs that they can make choices that help enrich them towards what they're trying to do. So in some cases, it's painting the picture of what that future looks like, giving them choices of what the future can look like. And then once the customer chooses that, help them to make decisions to get them closer to that. So whether that be having a digital footprint with us, right reducing the need for us to mail a bill. So they're going off of paper and onto an email bill or coming to a website to get all of the details behind their bill. I think helping them understand what that impact is, is important. Making sure that we are doing sustainable business practices for our customers is important as well, right? Like we've made different choices in our building with regards to how we process waste, how we are moving around the city, what we do, when we have trucks that may not be Eevee. There may not be an Eevee model ready for the trucks that we need. But how are we planning for that to bring in those sustainable business practices? How are we leveraging tools to be able to take not necessarily like I'm unnecessary steps out of the process, whether it be a new material that a lot, that's a more sustainable material that doesn't have us cutting down trees or others. Like I think there's some things that we are looking at that to make choices about what that what that future is going to look like. And I think the other component that we have as utilities is we need to be leaders in the field, right, we need to look at what's happening, not just here in Canada, but there are other jurisdictions around this globe that have been doing conservation because they've needed to do conservation. And and so they've, they've, I don't want to say perfected it, but they've advanced it significantly. And in some cases, we can leapfrog what their program is to an even better program with potentially new technology or even a different focus. So we're looking at, we're looking into Europe, and what are they doing with regards to conservation? What are they doing with regards to energy efficiency? And how can we take what they're doing and adopt it here. And so I think utilities have a obligation to look outside of our own four walls, look outside of our province, even look inside of our country to see what are some of those things that are working elsewhere, that can be brought here for our customers.

Dan Seguin 26:21

Now, wondering if you could outline some initiatives that hydro Auto is doing to help its customers in that area?

Julie Lupinacci 26:30

Sure, there's a whole load of ones that we can talk to, and I would encourage you to follow our blog, because we talk about a lot of those pieces and share some of those details in greater detail. And some of the case studies that we do share, may have a direct impact on some other customers. And you would see how that translates into your business or interior household. But we work very closely with the City of Ottawa on their energy evolution file. And taking a look at everything from where public EV chargers need to be set up, talking to them about how to retrofit their own buildings and be future proofed from and have a smart energy component to that, talking about how we build better communities. So we're there talking with them at the planning stages of that. So those are things that we do with the city, we are looking at distributed energy resources in a very thoughtful and deliberate way, and seeing how we can leverage some of the distributed energy resources that exist in our city today, how we align it to the grid, and how we use these distributed energy resources to bridge the evolution that's needed to be able to get to that future where the capacity need is, is maybe even three times what we're seeing today. So how are we planning for that with traditional assets? But also how can we bridge and leverage distributed energy resources that exist and will exist in our service territory? So we're doing that tons of education says, as I talked about, whether you look at our blogs, the newsletters that go out, read them, there's some really cool things and ideas that are in there for you as residential customers, and even commercial customers. We had an amazing symposium where we just started some of the conversation about what these different projects and initiatives are that we're doing with customers and can do with customers. You look at the Zibi Community, right downtown, like right behind shudder right beside sheer falls and behind the parliament. And that community itself is built completely differently, right, looking at using renewable energy, looking at using the steam off of Kruger that's just across the river, and how that heats the building and heats the community. And then looking at, you know, from an environmental footprint, what we did at a shelter falls with the eel ladder and helping with the eel migratory patterns is one element. We have a new substation in barre haven where we were very deliberate and kept a parcel of that land for a pollinator meadow. And really looking at how we promote the pollinators to be in the area that helped that particular growth. And then a number of conservation programs that we're working with with either the ISO which is our Independent Electricity System, distributor, or off operator and working with them and the Ministry of Energy on here are some programs that we see that can help bridge a defer capital investments because the capacity is here and we're sharing the capacity a little bit different, and even encouraged people to conserve energy, you know, not leaving their lights on not leaving motors running, generators, running, and all kinds of different programs that we can look at from that perspective. So lots of pilots, lots of different programs that are in flight and pilots to come.

Dan Seguin 29:59

What new and innovative plans are you making for the short, mid and long term when it comes to customers? And what hydro Ottawa offers?

Julie Lupinacci 30:12

Yeah, so I think I mentioned our, our battery loan program, you know that that was a one that we had thought would be a one and done type of thing during, during the early days of the pandemic. And the results that we saw on that program just made it one that we don't see going away anymore. So looking at continuing to evolve that program and scale it up. So I think that would be, you know, a short term. One. Another short term one is some of the Eevee programs that we're working on, that are coming to market with regards to being able to not only see where the EVs are coming up, but predict where the next EVs are going to be coming in. And even having a bit of a different relationship with those Eevee owners. So some type of a demand response program, you'll see that too short to mid term. With regards to helping customers understand that if they defer or delay charging their car until the evening, there might be a cost benefit, but also some benefit to us overall. So I think you'll see a lot of those kinds of demand response pilots to really see how and what we need to do, and engage our community and help us get there, right? We can't do this as single, single folks, we need to do this as a full community looking towards that future. And long term, I think you'll see some of those continuing to innovate. With regards to just building smarter communities, renewables within communities, you'll look at a different way of doing some substation work, and bringing that power here into the city of Ottawa.

Dan Seguin 31:51

Now, in 2021, hydro Ottawa announced that it will achieve Net Zero operations by 2030. How will this help or improve the lives of Ottawa residents?

Julie Lupinacci 32:04

It's a very philosophical question in some cases, because I think there's still a lot of misconception or confusion around what net zero means, right? And people think that going to net zero means there's no emissions. And that's not true. Net Zero means that we are becoming carbon neutral or emission neutral. So we may emit some emissions on one side of the business. But we're, we're offsetting in another area. So I think, I think it's a few different things. I think it gets us off thinking in a very different way. It helps to stimulate a conversation that is much needed to be able to advance. And I think we have a corporate responsibility to move that forward here within the City of Ottawa, especially being the capital of Ottawa, when you have your Prime Ministers sit up there and say, we're going to be net zero by 2050. And nobody moves until 2049. It's not going to work great. So people need to move early. And I think hydro Ottawa has demonstrated a lot of those advancements towards this net zero operations even in advance of, of when we announced it, right, like a lot of some of what we were doing a lot of what we were doing sorry, was really in play before that we had a very different way of building our our generation downtown Ottawa and we took the environment into account, we took a very accountable, measured approach to how we were doing our development and you're gonna see that continue in what we do. As we build substations, how do we do that to make sure that we have the least impact on the environment, and that we leave the space that we're in as good or better is really what we're trying to do than that have been when we got there, I look at the the Cambrian substation and bar Haven, and it is better than when we put our plant there because we have a pollinator meadow that's very deliberate, and what we're doing, we're taking care of the lands that are that are there, and you're gonna see that happen throughout. And it's all in for that larger view. With regards to Ottawa residents, I think it's important for them to know that they have a utility provider that cares about that as much as they do. And that are putting very thoughtful approach to how we go about doing things and we're not just doing it for the sake of doing it it means something this last spring, although small, in its in its in its infancy and I see it growing you know, we we planted trees, as part of our employees as part of their volunteer day that they get with the company went out into community and planted trees in an area that was where they were much needed. So I think you'll see a lot of those types of initiatives all happening within the city and with our company.

Dan Seguin 35:04

Julie, is this what customers expect from a modern utility? What other ways is hydro Ottawa innovating?

Julie Lupinacci 35:14

Yeah, I think expectations on on utilities as well as most organizations is changing significantly, customers are wanting organizations, corporations to not just be good corporate citizens, but to be accountable for the decisions and the activities that they do to be transparent, and why we're making those decisions, and how we're making those decisions. So when we talk about bringing in renewables, when we talk about being ready for electric vehicles, when we talk about bringing an energy management expertise into the area, it's it's really meant to make sure that customers have the information that they're already asking for, and that they're having information from a somewhat neutral party, right. In some cases, we're not looking at pushing one way or another, but making sure that people are informed to make the best decisions, and know what the outcomes are. And I think we're uniquely positioned to do that. There's a lot of people that might sell renewables, and they help install solar panels. And we're not looking to replace any of those, those people like it takes all kinds to make these things, all kinds of components in the supply chain to make this come to reality. But I think there is a natural space for hydro Ottawa to be there to help inform customers on how to do this effectively, what this means to them, like adding solar panels to your rooftop has complications. And it also has implications for you as a homeowner. And I think it's important that people be informed as they're making those decisions to put two and two together so that they don't, later on, find out that, you know, use this example, they bought an Eevee. And they bring it home, and they have nowhere to plug it in. Because their condo Corporation isn't set up effectively. There's nowhere for them to do public charging systems, I think that we need to make sure that we're helping customers make those informed decisions, and how we can do that together. So things around, like you mentioned, cybersecurity, and energy management, one of our conversations, and we're getting in, we're playing a big role in that, like, I think if we would be naive to think that customers don't expect us to have some of the best cybersecurity programs in place we are, are the custodians of the network that makes sure that they have energy to run their lives and electricity to run their lives. And I mentioned at the beginning of this, that some people count on that to stay alive. So that is of utmost importance, and a certainty that we need to play a space in that. And then energy management, like who you turn to other than somebody is really accountable to make sure that energy comes to your house, to be able to provide that expertise and help you through that and guide you through that process.

Dan Seguin 38:19

Now, what are some community carbon reduction projects that hydro Ottawa has been involved in, that customers might not be aware of?

Julie Lupinacci 38:29

Yeah, so hydro Ottawa has been working with the city and a lot of customers around the Ottawa area to be able to help them bring some of the carbon reduction projects that they have to life and to reality. So one of the big ones that I think maybe will touch everybody in the city of Ottawa is streetlight conversions. So we converted them all the street lights to LEDs, so that provided a significant cost savings to the City of Ottawa with regards to their energy bill, but in most cases provided better lighting, to the city streets, and has an element of controls in those lights to be able to allow the city to turn them up or down depending right so there's some technology that's built into those city lights, and all done through cost savings to the to the city overall. So I think that that was a big one that folks may not know about. We have been working with the city on their electric buses and bringing that vision to fruition. Electric buses, although we're not in the bus business, we are in the business now to support getting electricity to those buses and to where they need it and planning where those bus resting stations are to recharge, making sure there's enough in electricity capacity going into the main headquarters where the buses park at night, do their maintenance, make sure that they get charged up for the routes and working to make sure that they have everything there at To add a Edie, affordable process for the city, right, making sure that we're looking at, at this model that we worked on with the city to make sure that hydro water was working and supporting everything up to that charger. And the city's buses are running the routes, but we're, you know, we're staying in our lanes with regards to core competency, but making sure that we're bringing that vision to reality. And we're doing that same thing with the airport. No, we're not in the flight business. But we are in the business of making sure that as airports, specifically the airport here in Ottawa, are looking at electrifying everything under the wing, making sure doing fuel switching even in their passenger terminals. So you know, look at lighting solutions all across, whether it's, you know, the parking garage or in the building, you know, working with the report on helping them get to their net zero commitments, and making sure that we have the expertise brought in. Sometimes it comes with, you know, understanding what different programs are out there and marrying those up. And we do that. And then the last one, I think we've been working with some customers like the airport, so the airport's not a standalone, customer story. We've got a number of those stories that we're working with customers to do. We're working with Ottawa police services to be able to help look at their fleets and how do you support moving, moving their fleets to electric vehicles and other other customers that are like that? And then looking and working with the City of Ottawa on public charging stations? Where would these be, you know, our new mayor, as part of his campaign talked about public charging stations talked about ebike charging stations, and we're working hand in hand with them to help bring those visions and those plans to reality that is not just to talk, but it is bringing those projects to life.

Dan Seguin 41:59

Okay, Julie, let's rewind and go back to the strategic plan. What are the key change drivers that are influencing hydro Ottawa is future planning.

Julie Lupinacci 42:10

So we've used a five-d framework in our strategic direction, because these are the drivers that are not just impacting our industry, but they're impacting everybody. And they're, they're things that are happening, and you'd have to understand what it is and then look at your own business and then how you support customers. So the customers need to be aware as well. So we're really looking at these five days. So the first one is decarbonisation. You know, I think we've had a lot of that conversation so far. It needs to be part of our programs, it needs to be part of our future design, it needs to be part of our discussions with customers. The second one is digitization. And this one has been around for a while, right, like people have been migrating to, to using electronics, like E bills, emails versus you know, getting your your bill in the mail, paying through through some type of paper pay service versus sending in a check, or coming in to drop off money at hydro. We haven't done that for a while. But those are pathways to this digitization. And I would say it's going further than that. We're looking at how to make sure that customers have access to their data through a digital output? How can they connect their systems to that to make some decisions for them? So digitization is a big one for us. Not just on the customer front? I would say how we're developing our systems as well. Decentralization is one of those third G's that people are looking at. And I always laugh because industries go through centralization, decentralization. It's kind of a little bit of a flux piece that happens. But we are in a decentralization component because they think the reality of an Ottawa is in the ecosystem that we have. It's a pretty vast city, like, you know, from a miles long miles wide component. It's vast. It's not as big as some of the service territories that you know, like Hydro Quebec takes care of the entire province. But it's vast enough that you would think why are we decentralizing? But there's the reality of things like the storm that bring it to light that you need some loops within the system that are centered around where people are living and making sure that we can have some redundancy in different areas. So we are looking at that. And what we do is diversification diversifying. Like we talked about overhead underground a lot this year, especially after the storms. That's one form of diversification. But there's also looking at how do you incorporate renewables? It's a different type of energy production. How do you incorporate solar in a different way in a very thoughtful way and I can be stressed enough because you can't just put solar across the entire city and think that that's going to work right, you need to be able to integrate those pieces, right? If you want that energy future, you have to integrate solar into the existing grid, and look at how we do this as a community based component. So diversification is definitely leading a lot of discussions here. And what we do, and the last one is demographics that the city is changing. You know, we used to be English, French only, we have different languages that are coming to be so that, you know, like, that's the basics of it. But also taking a look at the changing demographics of the workplace, the changing demographics of where people are working, and how people are working, like demographics is a little bit different. Right? There's, you know, there's a socio graphic component to that, or a psycho psychographic component that comes into that as well, that we're looking at how we speak to customers? How do we make sure that they have information? What are we making sure that we're doing when we plan work, right? Like we have to do maintenance on our system? How do we do that support, support our customers, so all five of those DS, really our part of how we evaluate the work of the projects that we get involved in?

Dan Seguin 46:18

What has been the impact of the pandemic on electricity customers, and how has that influenced your role, and also hydro Auto has relationship with its customers,

Julie Lupinacci 46:30

The pandemic has, I think, thrown a very different work life reality here. Ottawa, for the most part, did not see the unemployment rates as some of the other cities across Canada. So in some cases, we've been fortunate, but the impacts are still there. So for the utility, and I talked about it in the previous question a little bit, but for the utility, how we go about doing our work matters more. Now, I would say, you know, coming through the pandemic, it matters more, because when we used to plan work on our grid, we used to plan it during the day. So we would go into a community. And we would know that the bulk of the customers in that community were at work between nine and five, let's say or nine and three. And we could get a lot of work done without really impacting customers. And now, it's not like those homes have become daycares, not just during the pandemic, but as a, as a perpetual thing. Now, right, we've got hybrid work components, so you can't decide that this or you can't even hazard an educated guess that this community is going to be predominantly out between these hours on this day, like that just doesn't, that doesn't happen anymore. So working with customers and giving them more advanced notice, in some cases, more, making sure that they get this information in a timely manner so that they can plan around it the same way that we're planning is super critical. And I would say that, ultimately, the biggest change that we've seen with our customers is making sure that we can continue to do the work with the least impact to our customers. And I think that's why we talked about the battery loan program. That's why it's become such an important piece of the future that our customers will not be able to give it to everybody. But you know, at least it's a program that will kind of look at how we can evolve and be able to support our customers through those types.

Dan Seguin 48:41

Okay, Julie, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got some for you. Are you ready?