Making Sense of Chaos: Recent Episodes
Maddie Brygel & Jason Weel
“Making Sense of Chaos” is a podcast of people sharing their personal reflections on death, grief and chaos.
Hosts Jason and Maddie currently work as counsellors in the addiction and family violence space.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos Email: makingsenseofchaospod@gmail.com
Cover art by Ethan Brivik https://www.ebphotography.net.
Ceara is a 37-year-old psychologist living with terminal illness. On this episode, Ceara speaks about facing her death, how she finds hope in uncertainty, and why she supports voluntary assisted dying.
*Ceara is our first returning guest, and spoke to us back in July 2020.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Twitter: @msoc_pod
Contact Ceara:
Twitter: @CearaRickard
Instagram: @ceararickard
https://www.gofundme.com/f/supporting-cearas-cancer-journey
Dr Lars Madsen is a forensic psychologist with 20+ years experience in the treatment of sexual and violent offending.
On this episode, Lars shares anecdotes and insights from experiences across his career. In the second part of this episode, Lars discusses a case where he provided psychological assessment & treatment to a child sex murderer, using Forensic Schema Therapy.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Twitter: msoc_pod
TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content.
Supports:
Lifeline - 13 11 14
1800 Respect - 1800 737 732
Work by Lars:
Article - Forensic Schema Therapy: The Joker
Upcoming Talk: Therapy in Confined Spaces: Schema Therapy
Lars’ Forensic Schema Therapy Course (6-week interactive self-paced online course that introduces therapists to Forensic Schema Therapy (ST-F))
Website
James Harding was once an abuser, drug dealer and underworld debt collector. Now he’s a counsellor, and uses his experience to help criminals change their story.
[Episode hosted by Maddie].
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Twitter: @msoc_pod
SUPPORTS
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Mensline - 1300 78 99 78
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Hard Cuddles:
An innovative mental health service that specialises in counselling, forensic counselling, mentoring and peer support facilitated in an outdoor environment.
In this episode we talk to Dr Ray Middleton on the consequences of medicalising psychological suffering into “mental disorders”.
Ray is an independent trainer, speaker and writer, and a long-standing critic of the western diagnostic model of psychiatry.
He is a lead trainer in the Power Threat Meaning Framework - a radically different approach to psychological suffering, which abandons diagnoses altogether, and offers an alternative to seeing oneself as "disordered" or "mentally ill".
In this episode, Ray shares how his own experiences as a psychiatric patient in the 1990s led to his current work.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Twitter: @msoc_pod
TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content.
SUPPORTS
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
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About Dr Ray Middleton:
Dr Ray Middleton is an independent trainer in strengths based non-diagnostic approaches to distress, including Trauma Informed Practice and the Power Threat Meaning Framework approach. Ray has a PhD on dialogical/narrative approaches to complex trauma and recently authored a book chapter on innovative trauma informed approaches to people who are homeless.
Previously, Ray has set up and managed personality disorder services, been a senior care co-coordinator in an early intervention in psychosis service and systemic practitioner within systemic family therapy.
For training enquiries:
- Contact Ray at Ray.middleton@ladder4life.com or via his website; www.ladder4life.com
Jess has a background in psychology and criminology, and works in the reintegration space with long term & serious offenders. Jess chats with Jason about the different perspectives of grief, and why we are who we are.
*note: apologies as the audio quality on this episode is slightly poorer than usual.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
In this episode, hosts Jason & Maddie reflect on Brock's episode, sharing their personal reflections on suicide, loneliness and fear.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
WARNING: This episode does contain heavy & potentially triggering content.
SUPPORTS
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Griefline - 1300 845 745
8 years on from his footy career, Brock McLean opens up about his battles off the field - bulimia, depression, anxiety and attempts at ending his life.
TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
SUPPORTS
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Griefline - 1300 845 745
Mensline - 1300 78 99 78
Emmy van Deurzen is one of the world’s most respected existential psychologists. This is a raw and intimate episode, where Emmy talks about death, love and how she makes meaning of life. Also discussed is society’s obsession with ‘being happy’, the medicalisation of human misery and the need to get to know our darker sides.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
William Wainwright is a forensic psychologist with over 20 years experience in various settings, with a particular focus on sexual and violent offending.
In this episode, we discuss the psychology behind sexually abusing a child, how offenders justify breaking moral standards, and the cycle of shame involved in repeat offending.
We also discuss the trauma carried by emergency service workers, and how this is identified and treated within Vic Police. Jason shares some of his personal experiences of trauma working as a police officer, and later as a correctional officer in Parkville Youth Justice Centre.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
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About William:
William has acted as a court expert on numerous occasions and consulted and trained many audiences, including the police, judges, lawyers, DHHS workers, child protection workers, correction officers and prison officers.
In recent years, William has worked as the Senior Psychologist for the Police Psychology Unit and Family Violence Command, and was the key investigator of the 2016 Mental Health Reviews for the wellbeing of Victoria Police officers. William also trained officers in investigating and interviewing people accused of sexual offences.
William was also the president of ANZATSA, a not-for-profit organization designed to support practitioners working with sexually harmful behaviours both in the mainstream populations and disability. He has organized multiple local and international conferences as well as presenting regularly.
Currently, William is the Manager of Evidence Based Programs for OzChild, a not for profit organisation that works with best practice programs to strengthen and reunify families. These programs are designed to maintain family networks to offer children safety and
security.
William is a registered supervisor and has supervised forensic and non-forensic psychologists. He currently runs a peer supervision program for provisional and registered psychologist to
develop their practices and skills.
Part 2: We discuss with Noah Rasheta the notion of impermanence; that uncertainty is the only constant in life. We also discuss suicide, interdependence, doubt and the nature of introspection.
Noah Rasheta is a Buddhist teacher, lay minister, and author, as well as the host of the podcast Secular Buddhism.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content.
SUPPORTS
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Griefline - 1300 845 745
Noah Rasheta is a Buddhist teacher, lay minister, and author, as well as the host of the Secular Buddhism podcast. In this episode, Noah talks about how Buddhism changed his relationship with suffering, including the way he processed his dad’s death. We also discussed the darker side of our need to be liked, to belong and to stay busy.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Paros (29) shares his story of living through his dad's terminal illness, from ages 17-20. Paros is director of Lost Motos, a NFP and community that focuses on facilitating a safe forum for men needing honest dialogue around mental health.
SUPPORTS
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Griefline - 1300 845 745
Mensline - 1300 78 99 78
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Dylan (26) and Jordan (24) lost their dad, Bentley, to bowel cancer 6 months ago.
They’re also the founders of a brilliantly named YouTube series, “The C* Word”, where they speak about the challenges of living with a family member with cancer.
Dylan and Jordan are Maddie’s friends from high school, and in this episode, they sit down with her to talk about life since losing their dad.
Donate to Bowel Cancer Support, Awareness & Research.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Kate’s story is not grief due to a death, but due to the long-term incarceration of her brother overseas on a drug conviction. She describes the uncomfortable feelings of shame, guilt and compassion fatigue, and provides insight into the roles we undertake when others are suffering - including the complexities of holding anger, loss and hope simultaneously.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
*To protect privacy, we have used the pseudonyms of Kate and Matt.
Part 2: A personal episode with hosts Maddie and Jason. Discussion on regrets, fear of loved ones dying and last conversations.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
A personal episode with hosts Maddie and Jason. Discussion on regrets, fear of loved ones dying and last conversations.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Host Jason on how he is trying to accept that everything comes to an end… how this brings him an overwhelming sense of isolation, despair and loss of control, but also a deeper level of freedom; knowing that every moment is a unique, temporary moment in time that will never occur again.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Host Jason on his own feelings of purposelessness…
Let us know your thoughts by inboxing us at @makingsenseofchaos or makingsenseofchaospod@gmail.com (we may share with your permission).
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Ittay, a Jewish educator & journalist, speaks to Maddie about finding meaning and purpose, and why he doesn’t want his kids "to just be happy". He also speaks about his journey following his father’s death from cancer when he was 21, and how reading the book “Thirty Days” prompted a change in the way he related to death.
Instagram @ittay78
A Reflection on "Thirty Days" by Mark Raphael Baker.
Follow Ittay's journalism and peacework here & here
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Michael, aged 23, is currently in palliative care for treatment of brain cancer. Michael is training to become a nurse, and also volunteers as a first aider with Ambulance Victoria, St John Ambulance & State Emergency Service. In this episode, Michael tells us his story.
Michael's TikTok: @michaelarkalis
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Chloe, a 23-year-old aspiring school counsellor, speaks about the sudden loss of her dad 3 years ago - and the flood of different emotions that have followed.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Two friends having a chat about death, connection and existence.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Sandra Pankhurst is the woman behind the biography, ‘The Trauma Cleaner’. Sandra’s job as a trauma cleaner has led her into dark homes where death, sickness and madness have suddenly abbreviated the lives inside. She is called on to deal with diverse trauma clean-ups, from unattended deaths and suicides, to cases of long-term property neglect where homes have, in her words, “fallen into disrepute”.
Most people are surprised to learn that the police, firefighters or ambulances do not do trauma clean-up - that is why Sandra’s work is varied and so often includes crime scenes, floods and fires.
Sandra is also a transgender woman who was adopted into an abusive family and forced to live a malnourished life in a backyard shed.
On this episode, Sandra gives us a glimpse of her story.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
“I've worked in advertising for 35-years. All while suffering from Bipolar 1. So I know what it’s like to perform brilliantly in a boardroom one moment, only to find myself crying quietly in a toilet cubicle the next.”
On this episode, we speak to David Westgate about living with Bipolar 1, as well as some small talk topics such as the ultimate meaning and purpose of life.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
SUPPORTS:
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Mensline - 1300 78 99 78
DAVID’S WORK:
David is a keynote speaker for the Black Dog Institute. He’s also served on their Lived Experience Advisory Panel and on a mental health advisory board for Australia's biggest insurer, TAL, and as a qualified Mental Health First Aid facilitator.
Additionally, David has worked with groups as diverse as the Sudanese community, the Friends and Families of Missing People Unit, Department of Communications and Culture, Metlife, the Treasury, and even a club who had lost a member to suicide.
Tarang lost his sister Nikita when she was murdered at the age of 23.
Tarang Chawla unpacks how he goes about healing from this life-changing event and the way it’s changed who he is today and who he hopes to become.
A respected voice in the campaign to end violence against women, Tarang tells stories from his childhood and shares the pain of loss that underpins his advocacy work, including what he’s learnt along the way.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
SUPPORTS:
1800 RESPECT (1800 737 732)
Men’s Referral Service: 1300 766 491
Lifeline: 13 11 14
At the age of 24, Natarsha suddenly lost her husband Steve to unknown circumstances.
Natarsha is Jason’s friend from primary school, and in this very raw episode, she bravely shares her story from the 22nd March 2016.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
SUPPORTS:
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Griefline - 1300 845 745
After nearly losing his life to ice & cocaine addiction, Ben now supports others struggling with drug & alcohol dependency.
In this very moving episode, Ben walks us through his 17 years of active addiction.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Connect with Ben:
Ben is the founder of Drug-Ed, an organisation which aims to empower, motivate and educate individuals, families and communities, to gain a stronger awareness of the effects of drug and alcohol use.
Ben also produces the Road to Recovery, a radio show on J-AIR 87.8FM every Tuesday night at six, where he speaks about his incredible journey of hope, inspiration and self-discovery, from drug addiction to saving lives to helping families reconnect.
Dr Russ Pratt has over 25 years experience working with sexual offenders and murderers.
One of Australia's most respected forensic psychologists, Russ talks to us about the psychology of sexual assault and murder, and the impact of pornography on sexually abusive youth.
Website: https://www.primeforensicpsychology.com/
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
After years of mental anguish and suicidal intent, Sam Fewings gradually came to realise he wanted to live. In this very moving episode, Sam tells us his story.
TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
SUPPORTS
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Griefline - 1300 845 745
Mensline - 1300 78 99 78
SAM’S WORK:
Sam is the NSW State Manager for Roses in the Ocean - Australia's leading lived experience of suicide organisation.
As soon as she attempted to take her own life in 2005, Peta Dampney knew she wanted to live. In this very raw episode, Peta tells us her story.
TRIGGER WARNING: This episode describes heavy content.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Supports
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Connect with Peta:
From Me To You Consulting
Peta’s Instructor Profile - Mental First Aid Australia
Gidget Foundation
After surviving childhood abuse and domestic violence, Anita became a psychotherapist specialising in domestic violence. Combining her personal and professional experience, Anita tells us her story.
TRIGGER WARNING: this episode describes graphic scenes of domestic violence.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Supports:
Safe Steps - 1800 015 188
Victoria's 24/7 family violence support service.
1800 Respect - 1800 737 732
The national 24/7 support service to people impacted by sexual assault, domestic or family violence and abuse.
No To Violence - 1300 766 491
Victoria's 24/7 support to men who are wanting to stop their violent or abusive behaviour towards their family members.
Mensline - 1300 78 99 78
The national 24/7 telephone and online support, information and referral service for men with family and relationship concerns.
Anita's Work:
Activating Artemis - a coordinated and holistic framework which goes beyond common knowledge for Survivors, Community and Professionals for Prevention, Intervention and Healing from abuse and trauma.
The Wolf in a Suit - Anita's most recent book, supporting women to access their 'power within' following relationship abuse, violence and torment.
Jemma Katz, a 24-year-old uni student, received a shock cancer diagnosis in November last year.
Jemma writes: “Before I could finish my psychology undergrad last year I was diagnosed with Hodgkin’s lymphoma, a cancer of the lymphatic system. Since then, my emotions and cognitive boundaries have been challenged, and being invited onto this podcast was such an incredible way to explore that.”
Instagram: @jemmakatz
@makingsenseofchaos
Resources:
Cancerchicks - @cancerchicksau
A support group for young women aged 20-30 with cancer. (Of which our previous guest, Rikki, is the founder!)
Lymphoma Australia
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
A more philosophical episode, as we sit down with writer and artist Ike Curtis, discussing topics such as what goes on in the mind of a serial killer, whether religion eases fear of death and what it means to look at death after a “fulfilling life”.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
34-year-old psychologist Ceara Rickard on recently receiving a terminal diagnosis.
Ceara is a psychologist with strong interests in adult and youth mental health, recovery and social justice. Her most recent role involved working with young people experiencing mental distress with high and complex needs.
“I’ve decided that my approach to living with a terminal illness is going to be radical openness. We all die eventually, and I don't think I'm someone who wants to hide from that reality.”
Instagram: @ceararickard
Support Ceara's Cancer Journey
Instagram:@makingsenseofchaos
After 20 years working as a senior executive in the corporate sector, a series of significant life events led Asher to shift gears. Whilst grieving the deaths of his sister and then mum, Asher was diagnosed with a progressive rare blood cancer.
In this episode Asher shares with us his some of his innermost emotions and experiences on death, suffering and love.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
SUPPORTS
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Griefline - 1300 845 745
Mensline - 1300 78 99 78
ASHER’S WORK
The Warrior Within
@asherpackman
Kim speaks about the day 18 years ago that changed her life forever, when she accidentally killed a teenage boy whilst driving. Kim is joined by hosts Maddie and Jason, as well as her daughter, Renee (Jason’s partner).
Instagram:@makingsenseofchaos
Supports:
Lifeline - 13 11 14
Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636
Griefline - 1300 845 745
Road Trauma Support Services Victoria - 1300 367 797
Personal Stories:
Accidental Impacts
Information and support for people trying to cope with causing a serious accident. Maryan (website founder) is a social psychologist who accidentally killed a young boy whilst driving.
Insight - Accidental Killers
An episode with guests who have unintentionally ended someone’s life.
The Georgina Josephine Foundation
A charity which provides a support network for families affected by low-speed vehicle runover accidents. The charity was started by the parents of the late Georgina Cockburn, who was accidentally run over and killed as a result of the injuries she sustained in her own garage.
Rikki Stern is founder of Cancer Chicks Australia, a support group for young women aged 20-30 with cancer.
With rawness, honesty and humour, 22-year-old Rikki shares her story living with Hodgkins Lymphoma.
Instagram: @cancerchicksau
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Stephy, a currently serving Australian police officer, goes into depth about her experiences on the job, and her perceptions around death, life and suffering.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
Gideon Cohen (25) shares his views on life and suffering after the loss of his dad at age 18.
Gideon is Maddie's childhood friend and currently works as a screenwriter and actor.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
apologies for audio quality on this ep!
Join Jason Weel and Maddie Brygel as they discuss death and dying, and the underlying motives for starting this podcast.
Jason and Maddie met whilst studying psychology, and currently work as counsellors in the mental health, addiction and family violence sectors.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos
"Making Sense of Chaos" is a podcast about anything and everything but 'dinner table talk'. It's a conversation about death and dying, love, grief and hope, and the beauty and terror of realising that everyone you know will die.
Instagram: @makingsenseofchaos