On the Brink with Andi Simon: Recent Episodes
Andi Simon
On The Brink is a podcast where the goal is to help you better "see, feel and think" about your business, your job, your personal life and your purpose. There will be great interviews and conversations with people who are deeply involved in change—consultants, change agents, managers transforming their teams, entrepreneurs just starting out and CEOs running well-established companies.
What happens after you retire—and suddenly no one is telling you where to be or what to do?
Jim and Marilyn Riley have created a next chapter filled with friendship, travel, curiosity, learning, family and fun. But they didn't get there in exactly the same way.
Jim transitioned out of the company he had built, eventually handing leadership to his son and realizing that sometimes the best thing a former leader can do is get out of the way. Marilyn, a retired nurse, found new purpose through creativity, golf, book clubs, volunteering and her grandchildren.
Together, they offer an important lesson: a fulfilling retirement doesn't just happen. You build it.
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we talk about creating community before you need it, maintaining separate and shared interests as a couple, staying curious and active, traveling with intention, and why there really should be a "Retirement 101."
If you're approaching retirement—or already there and wondering what comes next—Jim and Marilyn's story may help you rethink what this stage of life can become.
Ready to rethink your own next chapter?
Learn more about Andi Simon's new book, Rethink Retirement: It's not the end but the beginning of what's next, and discover more stories, insights, and resources to help you create a life filled with purpose, people, and possibility.
Visit AndiSimon.com to learn more, and follow On the Brink with Andi Simon wherever you listen to podcasts.
If this conversation made you think differently about retirement, please share it with someone who might be wondering, "What comes next?"
What happens when a successful career ends—but your purpose doesn't?
In this inspiring episode of On the Brink, Andi Simon welcomes former NFL three-time Super Bowl champion Bart Oates and renowned orthopedic surgeon Dr. Vincent McInerney for a conversation about life beyond professional success.
Together, they explore what it really means to move into a new chapter—not by retiring from life, but by redefining it. They discuss the importance of purpose, lifelong learning, community, faith, health, and continuing to make a difference long after a career has ended.
Whether you're approaching retirement, beginning a career transition, or simply wondering what comes next, this conversation offers practical wisdom and hope for designing a meaningful future.
Retirement isn't about stopping. It's about discovering new ways to contribute, grow, and live with intention.
Change begins with a new way of seeing. As a corporate anthropologist, I believe that the stories we hear have the power to reshape the stories we live. If you're ready to rethink retirement—or simply rethink what's next—I hope you'll join me again on On the Brink. Until next time, stay curious, keep learning, and remember: your next chapter may be your most meaningful one yet.
What transforms expertise into influence?
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sit down with Bill Sherman, one of the leading voices in thought leadership and co-author of The Thought Leadership Handbook. Together, we explore what it really means to become a thought leader—and why it has very little to do with titles or self-promotion.
Bill shares how curiosity, passion, and a commitment to helping others are the true foundations of thought leadership. We discuss why writing a book is only the beginning, how ideas grow into movements, and why your expertise can continue to make a difference long after you've left an executive role or retired.
We also examine the role of AI. While artificial intelligence can summarize what has already been discovered, it cannot replace the human curiosity, judgment, and lived experience that drive innovation and meaningful change.
Whether you're an executive, entrepreneur, consultant, coach, author, or someone beginning your next chapter, this conversation will inspire you to think differently about the value of your ideas—and the impact they can have on others.
In this episode you'll discover: • What thought leadership really is—and what it isn't • Why curiosity is the engine behind every great idea • How to turn expertise into lasting influence • Why your next chapter may be your most impactful one
As always, my goal is to help you see, feel, and think in new ways so you can turn your observations into innovations.
About the Host Andi Simon, PhD, is a corporate anthropologist, author, speaker, and executive advisor who helps leaders, organizations, and individuals see, feel, and think in new ways so they can navigate change with confidence. She is the founder and CEO of Simon Associates Management Consultants and the author of Rethink Retirement, On the Brink, Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business, and Women Mean Business.
Learn more: • Website: https://www.simonassociates.net • Rethink Retirement: https://www.rethinkretirement.net • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andisimon/ • Subscribe to the Rethink Retirement Substack: https://rethinkretirement.substack.com
If you enjoyed this episode, please follow On the Brink with Andi Simon, leave a review, and share it with someone who is ready to see change through a fresh lens.
Retirement Isn't About Stopping—It's About Staying in the Game | Bob Hurley Sr.
What happens when one of the greatest basketball coaches in America steps away from coaching?
For Bob Hurley Sr., retirement wasn't the end of his purpose—it was an opportunity to live it in new ways.
In this inspiring episode of On the Brink, I sit down with legendary St. Anthony High School basketball coach Bob Hurley Sr. to explore what it really means to create a meaningful next chapter. While many know Bob for his 1,100+ career wins, national championships, and extraordinary coaching legacy, his greatest victories have always been measured by the lives he changed.
Together we discuss:
- Why purpose doesn't retire when your career ends
- The importance of building community throughout every stage of life
- How structure creates freedom after retirement
- Why volunteering, mentoring, and staying connected keep us energized
- The wisdom we gain through experience—and why the world still needs it
Whether you're preparing for retirement, already retired, or simply thinking about your next chapter, Bob's practical wisdom and lifelong commitment to helping others will leave you inspired.
Retirement isn't about leaving life behind.
It's about discovering where your experience, purpose, and passion can make the greatest difference next.
"Your career may end. Your purpose doesn't."
Retirement isn't simply the end of a career—it can be the beginning of a profound personal transformation.
In this episode of On the Brink, Andi Simon welcomes transformational facilitator Leslie Traub for a thoughtful conversation about identity, purpose, and life's "liminal spaces"—those uncertain moments between who we've been and who we're becoming.
Drawing on decades of leadership development and coaching, Leslie explains why so many people struggle with transitions, how external achievement can give way to deeper purpose, and why learning to embrace uncertainty opens the door to growth. Whether you're approaching retirement, experiencing an unexpected career change, or simply asking "What's next?", this conversation offers wisdom, encouragement, and practical insights for designing a meaningful next chapter.
If this conversation resonates with you, please subscribe to On the Brink with Andi Simon, leave a review, and share this episode with someone navigating an important life transition.
Together we can continue to see, feel, and think in new ways.
Retirement isn't simply about having enough money. It's about creating a life worth living.
In this episode, award-winning financial planner Stephanie McCullough joins me to explore why today's retirement requires more than a financial plan. We discuss the emotional challenges of leaving work, why so many people struggle to spend the money they've saved, and how identity, purpose, and community shape a meaningful next chapter.
If you're preparing for retirement—or already there—this conversation may change the way you think about your future.
Artificial intelligence is changing business faster than most leaders realize. But are we adopting it wisely?
In this episode of On the Brink, Andi Simon welcomes marketing strategist Shelly Tench and AI educator Heather Owen for a practical conversation about the opportunities—and risks—of generative AI. They explore how AI can help small businesses compete, improve marketing, and increase productivity, while explaining why human oversight remains essential.
If you've wondered whether AI will replace people, how much you can trust ChatGPT, or how to avoid costly mistakes, this episode offers thoughtful guidance without the hype.
Learn how to embrace AI as a powerful tool while keeping human judgment, creativity, and connection at the center of your business.
About the Host
Dr. Andi Simon is a corporate anthropologist and founder of Simon Associates Management Consultants. Through her consulting, speaking, writing, and On the Brink podcast, she helps leaders and organizations see opportunities others miss and navigate change with confidence.
🌐 SimonAssociates.net 📚 Author of Rethink Retirement, Women Mean Business, and On the Brink 🎙️ Subscribe to On the Brink with Andi Simon on your favorite podcast platform.
If you enjoyed this episode, please follow the show and leave a review. Your support helps more people discover conversations that inspire fresh thinking.
What does it really mean to age well in America today?
In this thought-provoking conversation, Andi Simon sits down with Cathy Rowe, Executive Director of New Jersey Advocates for Aging Well, to explore how longer lives are reshaping retirement, communities, and our sense of purpose.
As more Americans live 20 to 30 years beyond traditional retirement age, the question is no longer "Can I afford to retire?" but "What am I retiring to?" Cathy shares insights on age-friendly communities, social connection, lifelong learning, and why purpose matters as much as financial planning.
This episode is a fresh look at retirement, longevity, and creating a meaningful next chapter.
Key Topics: • Rethinking Retirement • Age-Friendly Communities • Purpose After Work • Loneliness and Social Connection • Lifelong Learning • Aging Well • Community Engagement • Longevity and Healthy Aging • Retirement Planning Beyond Finances
Connect with Andi Simon
Ready to rethink what's next in your life, career, or retirement?
📘 Rethink Retirement: It's Not the End, It's the Beginning of What's Next
🌐 Simon Associates Management Consultants: www.simonassociates.net
📰 Subscribe to Andi's Substack: Rethink Retirement
🎙️ Learn more about On the Brink with Andi Simon and explore past episodes.
📧 Contact Andi: asimon@simonassociates.net
Interested in Andi's Rethink Retirement Masterclasses, retreats, or speaking engagements? Visit SimonAssociates.net or reach out directly.
#RethinkRetirement #AgingWell #Longevity #PurposeAfterRetirement #AgeFriendlyCommunities
What happens when the identity tied to your business card disappears? In this powerful conversation, Dr. Andi Simon sits down with branding expert Brooke Foley to explore retirement, reinvention, and why today's next chapter is really a "relaunch." Together, they discuss personal branding, purpose, identity, and how individuals and businesses must rethink value in a rapidly changing world. A thoughtful and inspiring episode for anyone navigating change, career transitions, business transformation, or even personal retirement.
In this powerful episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I speak with Dr. Sharita Warfield, a board-certified emergency and lifestyle medicine physician, author, and coach who helps high-performing women reclaim their health, energy, and purpose before burnout takes over.
After more than 30 years in emergency medicine, Dr. Warfield experienced her own turning point—realizing that success and constant achievement were coming at the expense of her well-being. She shares how that moment inspired her to create the THRIVE Framework, helping leaders and professionals move from merely surviving to truly thriving.
Together, we explore burnout, stress, executive wellness, identity, resilience, intentional living, and why so many successful women have been "applauded into exhaustion." We also connect these ideas to retirement, reinvention, and finding purpose in every stage of life.
If you are feeling depleted, overwhelmed, or questioning how to sustain success without sacrificing yourself, this conversation is for you.
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, Andi speaks with Tonya Thomas, founder of Team Delegate, about how entrepreneurs and business leaders can delegate more effectively, scale their businesses, and stop becoming the bottleneck. They explore the difference between reactive and proactive executive assistants, how AI is changing executive support, and why leaders need more time to think strategically instead of doing everything themselves. A valuable conversation for consultants, coaches, CEOs, and growing businesses looking to improve productivity, leadership, and business growth.
Rethinking Retirement: Why It's Never Too Late to Reinvent Yourself Featuring Louise Olson
What happens when you step away from the role that once defined you? Why is this thing called "retirement" such a challenge?
For many, retirement feels like an ending. But in this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, my guest Louise Olson shows us something very different—it can be the beginning of a bold, expansive, and deeply meaningful next chapter.
Louise's journey is not a straight line. And that's exactly why it matters.
She didn't begin her professional career until age 45. Before that, she was a stay-at-home mother in a traditional family, where the expectation was clear: care for the home, raise the children, and leave career-building to others. But life has a way of nudging us forward.
And Louise listened.
Starting as a secretary at Motorola, she stepped into opportunities she didn't even know she was ready for—eventually becoming an international meeting planner, traveling the world, and working on global programs including those with Interpol.
And here's what makes her story so powerful: She didn't wait to be chosen. She raised her hand, took bold action, and learned as she went.
Reinvention and Retirement are not Just a Moment—They are a Mindset Louise's story is a masterclass in what I call rethinking retirement.
When she stepped away from a major global client after 16 years, she faced the same question so many of us do:
"Who am I now?"
It's one of the four essential questions I explore in Rethink Retirement:
- Who am I without my business card?
- What will I do every day?
- Where do I still matter?
- Who is my community?
Louise didn't rush to answer them. She explored them.
She leaned into curiosity, not certainty. She experimented, not perfected.
And she reminds us of something we often forget: You are not a victim of your circumstances—you are the creator of them.
The Courage to Begin Again (At Any Age) At an age when many people slow down, Louise sped up.
- She climbed Machu Picchu at 63
- Built an international career after 65
- Launched retreats and community programs in her 70s
- Continues to travel, teach, and inspire women globally
Her message is simple, but profound:
It is never too late.
Not to learn something new. Not to build something meaningful. Not to become someone different.
What holds most people back isn't age—it's mindset.
Retirement should be your
From Structure to Self-Design Your Retirement One of the biggest challenges people face in retirement is the loss of structure.
For decades, your calendar is filled for you. Then suddenly… it's empty.
Louise sees this not as a problem—but as an invitation.
"You are going to have to create your retirement," she shared. "And you've never had to do that before."
That blank space? It's where your next life gets designed.
But design requires intention.
Louise starts her days with a simple practice:
- Gratitude for the day ahead
- Clarity on what she wants to create
- A willingness to try something new
It's not about having all the answers. It's about taking the next step. And retirement is a great accelerator for you to redesign this next stage in your life.
Finding Your Tribe Again, and It Is More Than Other Retirees Perhaps one of the most powerful insights from our conversation was about community.
When we leave our careers, we often lose more than a job—we lose our network, our daily interactions, our sense of belonging.
Louise recognized this early. Retirement meant she needed a new community.
So she didn't wait for a community to find her—she built one.
Through her "Wise Wandering" retreats and meetup groups, she's creating spaces where women can:
- Explore new identities
- Share their transitions
- Build meaningful relationships
- Feel seen and understood
Because retirement without community can quickly become isolation.
And none of us are meant to navigate this stage alone.
What Can You Learn from Louise? Louise's journey offers a few powerful lessons:
- Say yes before you feel ready
- Follow curiosity—it will lead you forward
- Don't wait for permission to reinvent yourself
- Build your community intentionally
- Design your days with purpose, not habit
Most importantly:
Retirement is not about stopping. It's about choosing.
Ready to Rethink Your Next Chapter? If Louise's story resonates with you, I invite you to take the next step.
Join me for my upcoming Masterclass, where we'll explore how to:
- Redefine your identity beyond your career
- Create meaningful structure in your days
- Clarify your purpose and impact
- Build a community that supports your journey
Or start with the book: Rethink Retirement—available now.
Because this stage of life isn't the end of something.
It's the beginning of what's next.
Have a story about your own transition? I'd love to hear it. Share it with me—because together, we learn to see, feel, and think in new ways.
Connect with me: * Join my Substack Newsletter Rethink Retirement * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Book Website: www.andisimon.com * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Now--it is time to share our new book with you! Rethink Retirement: It's Not The End--It's the Beginning of What's Next
What happens when successful professionals retire—and realize they're not ready to stop?
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I speak with Vistage Chair Jeannette Hobson about the evolving meaning of retirement—and why so many people are unprepared for what comes next.
Jeannette shares her remarkable journey of career pivots, lifelong curiosity, and leadership—and how those same qualities are essential for navigating life beyond work.
We explore why retirement isn't an ending, but a transition—one that requires more than a financial plan. It requires a life plan.
If you are thinking about retirement—or already there—this conversation will help you rethink what comes next.
In This Episode: * Why curiosity is the key to lifelong reinvention * The hidden risks of retiring without a life plan * How to prepare before you leave your role * The importance of purpose, structure, and community * Why "age is irrelevant" in designing your next chapter
Connect with Andi Learn more about Dr. Andi Simon's work, books, and upcoming workshops: www.andisimon.com
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, Lisa Woodruff, founder of Organize 365, shares a powerful reframe of what it means to be organized. Moving beyond clutter and to-do lists, she explores how organization is a learnable skill that can reduce "overwhelm", improve time management, and create space for purpose and meaning. Drawing on her research in applied psychology and years of hands-on experience, Lisa introduces practical systems to manage the "invisible load" of daily life, treat your household like a business, and redesign your routines for greater productivity and well-being. This conversation offers valuable insights for anyone navigating life transitions—including retirement—who wants to regain control, build better habits, and create a more intentional and fulfilling life. How are you going to manage organizational chaos in your home? Listen in and learn more.
The Real Problem: We Know Organization Matters—But Don't Know How to Get Organized In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had a fascinating conversation with Lisa Woodruff, founder and CEO of Organize 365 and author of Escaping Quicksand. What began as a discussion about organizing quickly became something much deeper: a rethinking of how we live, work, and care for ourselves across every stage of life.
Because organization, as Lisa shows us, isn't about tidying up—it's about reclaiming your time, your energy, and ultimately, your purpose.
Lisa shared a powerful statistic: 87% of Americans believe organization is a learnable skill—but fewer than 18% feel they are organized.
That gap is where overwhelm lives.
Most people think the goal is to "get everything done" so they can relax. But Lisa reframes the problem entirely:
The real question is: how do we manage our households as the economic and operational systems they truly are?
This is where her work becomes transformational.
Your Home Is an Enterprise—Eliminate Organizational Chaos One of the most important insights from our conversation is this:
Your household is not just a home—it is an economic entity.
You manage:
- Finances
- Operations (maintenance, food, logistics)
- People (family, caregiving, relationships)
- Strategy (planning, scheduling, life transitions)
Yet unlike in business, no one trains us to run it.
Lisa's solution? Treat your home like a business—and yourself like its CEO.
That mindset shift alone can begin to reduce chaos and create clarity.
Where to Begin: Simple, Practical Steps Lisa offers a refreshingly realistic starting point:
- Acknowledge the scale of what you're managing You are running a complex system—give yourself credit.
- Start small—but stay consistent Even 20 minutes a day creates momentum.
- Focus on systems, not perfection The goal is progress, not a perfect home.
- Invest in your future self Every small act of organization today reduces stress tomorrow.
This conversation is not just about organizing your home.
It's about:
- Taking ownership of your time
- Designing your daily life
- Creating space for meaning and purpose
Or, as Lisa so beautifully puts it:
"Invest today in what you want to have tomorrow."
Key Takeaways
- Organization is a learnable skill—but most people are never taught how to do it
- Your household functions like a business—and needs systems to operate effectively
- The biggest source of overwhelm is the invisible mental load, not just physical tasks
- Self-care is not indulgence—it's essential, holistic care for yourself
- Structure and systems are critical, especially during life transitions like retirement
- Small, consistent actions can create exponential improvements in your life
To Learn More About Lisa Woodruff: Lisa's profile: linkedin.com/in/lisawoodruff
Website: organize365.com (Company)
Connect with me:
- Join my Substack Newsletter Rethink Retirement
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Book Website: www.andisimon.com
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Now--it is time to share our new book with you! Rethink Retirement: It's Not The End--It's the Beginning of What's Next
Out on Amazon and WalMart, and in your local bookseller and Rethink Retirement: The Workbook
Summary Retirement is often framed as a personal milestone—a moment when we step away from work and into freedom. But what if retirement isn't just about leaving a job? What if it's about navigating the deep relationships, identity shifts, and responsibilities we carry with us into what comes next?
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, Andi speaks with Katherine Crewe, a Tech/Vistage chair in Canada, whose thoughtful approach to retirement reveals a powerful truth: transitions are not events—they are processes.
The Myth of the Clean Exit: Leaving Work Isn't Leaving Relationships Katherine's story challenges the idea that retirement is a simple, clean break. After decades in biomedical engineering and leadership, she moved into a role guiding CEOs and executives. Now, in her late sixties, she is not "done"—she is reflecting, recalibrating, and carefully designing her transition.
What makes her journey so compelling is this: she is not just leaving a role—she is stepping away from a community.
As a chair, Katherine has built deep, trusted relationships with the leaders she supports. When she began discussing retirement with them, the reactions were emotional and varied. Some encouraged her to stay. Others supported her decision. Many wanted one thing above all—a thoughtful, gradual transition.
This wasn't about replacing a position. It was about preserving relationships, continuity, and trust.
Retirement Is a Social Transition, Not Just a Personal One One of the most important insights from this conversation is that retirement impacts more than the individual.
Katherine realized that stepping away from her role felt less like leaving a job—and more like leaving a network of meaningful human connections. The responsibility she feels is not just to herself, but to those who depend on her leadership.
This is a critical lesson for organizations as well.
As Andi notes, companies are facing a "senior tsunami"—a wave of experienced employees approaching retirement. Yet many organizations still treat retirement as an administrative process rather than a cultural transition.
What Katherine is modeling is something different:
- Thoughtful succession planning
- Gradual transitions
- Honoring relationships and institutional knowledge
This is where anthropology becomes powerful. It helps us see what is really happening beneath the surface.
The Paradox of Choice in Retirement Unlike traditional roles, Katherine's position has no fixed retirement age. She could continue indefinitely. And that creates a new kind of challenge—the paradox of choice.
If you can keep working… should you?
Rather than choosing between "all or nothing," Katherine is exploring a more nuanced path:
- Reducing from three groups to one
- Staying engaged in meaningful work
- Creating more space for personal life and exploration
This is a powerful reframe. Retirement doesn't have to be binary. It can be designed.
Preparing Before You Retire Perhaps the most valuable insight Katherine offers is that she has already been preparing for retirement—without calling it that.
She has:
- Structured her own time for years
- Built her identity around relationships, not titles
- Prioritized wellness as a daily practice
- Maintained independence in how she works and lives
As a result, she does not fear the four common retirement pain points:
- Loss of identity
- Lack of daily structure
- Unclear purpose
- Disconnection from community
Why? Because she has already built a life that isn't dependent on a job to provide those things.
This is the real lesson: Retirement is not something you enter. It is something you prepare for—while you are still working.
Couples, Conversations, and "Confetti Moments" Another powerful theme in this episode is how retirement impacts relationships at home.
Katherine and her husband are both still active, both thinking about the future—but not always in structured ways. Instead, they have what she calls "confetti moments"—brief, scattered conversations about what retirement might look like.
This is deeply relatable.
Many couples don't sit down and design their future together. They talk in fragments. And yet, retirement will require alignment:
- How will we spend our time?
- Will we keep working?
- What does "being together" actually look like?
Without intentional conversations, these differences can become points of tension.
What This Means for You Katherine's journey reminds us that retirement is not an ending—it is a transition into a new stage of life that deserves as much thought and care as any career move.
It is not about stopping. It is about redesigning.
Key Takeaways * Retirement is not a single event—it is a gradual, human transition. * Leaving work often means leaving relationships, not just responsibilities. * Organizations must treat retirement as a cultural and strategic issue, not just HR process. * The best retirement transitions are designed, not abrupt. * Preparing early—by building identity, structure, purpose, and community—makes all the difference. * Couples need intentional conversations about what retirement will look like together. * You don't have to stop working—you can redefine how you work.
Learn more about Katherine Crewe: Katherine's profile: linkedin.com/in/katherinecrewe
Connect with me:
- Join my Substack Newsletter Rethink Retirement
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Book Website: www.andisimon.com
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Now--it is time to share our new book with you! Rethink Retirement: It's Not The End--It's the Beginning of What's Next
Out on Amazon and WalMart, and in your local bookseller and Rethink Retirement: The Workbook
Podcast Summary In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, Dr. Andi Simon speaks with Joe Davis, former senior partner at Boston Consulting Group and author of The Generous Leader. Their conversation explores how leadership has evolved in a fast-changing world—and why the most effective leaders today succeed by developing others, listening deeply, and embracing humility. The discussion offers practical insights on leadership, team development, and navigating uncertainty with confidence and compassion.
Why Leadership Must Change in a World of Constant Disruption We are living through an era of continuous transformation—technological disruption, shifting workforce expectations, and evolving organizational cultures. As Dr. Andi Simon notes, the past is no longer a reliable guide for the future. Leaders must adapt, not by controlling change, but by learning how to move with it.
Joe Davis's career journey reflects this reality. From Procter & Gamble to Harvard Business School and ultimately to leadership roles at BCG, his path was anything but linear. Instead of following a predictable trajectory, Davis embraced unexpected opportunities—often the ones others might avoid.
Key takeaway: Great leaders don't follow a fixed path—they develop the agility to step into the unknown.
What Is a Generous Leader? At the heart of the conversation is Davis's core idea: leadership is not about personal success—it's about enabling others to succeed.
A "generous leader" gives of themselves freely to help others grow, without expecting immediate personal gain. This mindset transforms leadership from a position of authority into a platform for impact.
Core Traits of Generous Leadership * Generous Listening – Truly hearing others, not interrupting or assuming * Generous Communication – Connecting with clarity and empathy * Generous Inclusion – Bringing diverse voices into the conversation * Generous Development – Actively coaching and growing others * Generous Recognition – Celebrating contributions, big and small * Small Acts, Big Impact – Simple gestures that build trust * Authenticity & Vulnerability – Leading as a human, not a persona
The Leadership Mistake Most People Make One of the most powerful moments in the podcast is when Davis reflects on a common leadership error: thinking you already know what others are going to say.
He shares a story of interrupting a colleague mid-thought—only to be told bluntly to "let me finish." The lesson was clear:
Listening is not waiting to speak—it's learning something you don't already know.
This insight is critical in today's workplace, where collaboration and innovation depend on diverse perspectives.
Leadership at Scale: Can You Lead 7,000 People? Davis once led over 7,000 people. His approach offers a valuable lesson for executives and emerging leaders alike:
You don't scale leadership through control—you scale it through culture and systems.
How to Lead at Scale * Reinforce clear values consistently * Build structured feedback and development processes * Promote people who model the culture * Communicate constantly—and check if your message is truly understood * Create environments where people feel seen and heard
When leaders align behaviors, values, and systems, leadership becomes self-reinforcing across the organization.
Why Empathy Is a Strategic Advantage During the COVID-19 pandemic, Davis realized how disconnected leaders can be from employees' lived realities. While he had space and comfort at home, younger employees were working from cramped apartments, sharing limited resources.
This realization changed how he led.
Leadership insight: You cannot lead effectively if you don't understand the context in which your people are living and working.
Empathy is no longer optional—it is a strategic necessity.
The Future of Leadership: From Authority to Enablement One of the most important shifts discussed in the episode is this:
The leader's job is not to have the best answer—but to get the best answer out of the room.
This reflects a broader transformation:
- From command-and-control → to collaborate-and-enable
- From individual expertise → to collective intelligence
- From certainty → to adaptability
In a world shaped by rapid change and uncertainty, leaders must become facilitators of growth—not just decision-makers.
Final Takeaway: Ask and Listen If there is one lesson to remember, it is simple but profound:
Ask. And then listen.
Great leadership begins with curiosity and humility. By understanding others' perspectives, leaders unlock innovation, trust, and performance.
Why This Matters Now As organizations face talent shortages, generational shifts, and accelerating change, leadership is being redefined. The most successful leaders will not be those who know the most—but those who develop the most in others.
Joe Davis's philosophy of generous leadership offers a powerful roadmap for navigating this new reality.
From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Summary
Meetings dominate our workdays—but what if they could become a source of intelligence rather than inefficiency? In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I speak with Ramsey Pryor, CEO and founder of Rumi, an AI‑powered meeting intelligence platform that is redefining how organizations capture knowledge, collaborate, and make decisions. Together, we explore how artificial intelligence is reshaping the future of work by transforming everyday conversations into actionable insights.
The Problem with Meetings Today
Let's start with a simple truth: most meetings underperform.
Professionals spend 30% or more of their time in meetings, and much of that time is wasted repeating information, catching people up, or trying to recall what was previously discussed. As Ramsey noted, research suggests that two‑thirds of meeting time is spent rehashing prior conversations—a staggering drain on productivity and morale.
Across industries—from banking to healthcare—I've seen meetings with no agenda, no clear outcomes, and no shared understanding of next steps. Attendance becomes the work, rather than progress.
So the real question becomes:
What if meetings could finally work for us instead of against us?
The Hidden Value Inside Your Meetings—and How AI Unlocks It Ramsey Pryor founded Rumi during the pandemic, when virtual meetings exploded and attention became fragmented. His idea was deceptively simple:
Capture everything that happens in meetings and turn it into usable knowledge.
Using AI, Rumi:
- Automatically transcribes conversations
- Summarizes key insights
- Identifies and tracks action items
- Creates a searchable "meeting memory"
Instead of relying on human recollection—or scattered notes—teams gain access to a living, searchable database of institutional knowledge.
This is where the transformation begins.
From Note‑Taking to Knowledge Creation
Traditional note‑taking is reactive. You jot things down and hope they make sense later.
AI flips that model.
With meeting intelligence, employees can:
- Ask: "Why did we make this decision?"
- Find: "Who has expertise in this area?"
- Track: "What actions were assigned—and to whom?"
As Ramsey explained, this reduces interruptions, eliminates redundant conversations, and accelerates decision‑making. Instead of digging through emails or pinging colleagues, employees can query their organization's collective memory directly.
The result is simple but powerful:
Less redundancy. Faster decisions. Better alignment.
Changing Habits—and Culture
This shift is not just technological—it's behavioral.
We are moving from:
- Listening and forgetting → capturing and retrieving
- Individual memory → shared intelligence
- Meetings as events → meetings as data assets
Just as many of us instinctively turn to tools like ChatGPT for answers, organizations are beginning to turn inward—to their own data—for insights.
This represents a profound cultural transformation.
The Global Dimension: Culture Still Matters
As an anthropologist, I find the global implications especially compelling.
Meetings are deeply cultural:
- In some regions, hierarchy shapes who speaks
- In others, open debate is expected
- Communication norms vary widely
AI can help bridge gaps—especially in language, documentation, and clarity—but it cannot replace the need to understand how people interpret and act on information.
Technology enables. Culture determines adoption.
Measuring the Impact
The value of AI‑powered meeting intelligence is not theoretical—it's measurable.
Ramsey shared an example of a 300‑person sales team that saved 33,000 hours annually by reducing repetitive tasks and improving access to information.
That's the equivalent of adding 15 full‑time employees—without hiring anyone.
This is where AI shifts from "interesting" to indispensable.
A New Way to Think About Meetings
Here are three key insights to carry forward:
- Meetings are a hidden source of value
They contain knowledge your organization is already paying for—but not fully using.
- AI turns conversations into assets
What was once ephemeral becomes searchable, actionable, and scalable.
- Behavior change is the real transformation
The technology matters, but the real shift is in how people think, ask questions, and access information.
Final Thought
We are at the beginning of a major shift. Just as the internet democratized access to global knowledge, AI‑powered meeting intelligence is democratizing access to organizational knowledge.
The question is no longer:
"What did we say in that meeting?"
It is:
"What can we do with everything we know?"
From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Millions of professionals are entering retirement each year, yet few are prepared for the emotional transition that comes after leaving a career. In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, Dr. Andi Simon speaks with publishing executive Mary Lou Mackin about the unexpected challenges of retirement and how to redesign the next chapter of life with purpose, structure, and community.
Listen to the full episode of the On the Brink with Andi Simon podcast to hear Mary Lou Mackin's full story about redefining life after retirement.
Summary
In this episode, Mary Lou Mackin shares her personal journey through early retirement and the emotional challenges that followed. After a successful career in publishing, she discovered that stepping away from work left her struggling with identity, structure, and purpose. Through honest reflection and experimentation, she began rebuilding a new life that included community, creativity, and meaningful work. Her story highlights the importance of preparing emotionally—not just financially—for retirement.
Key Takeaways
- Retirement is not simply a financial decision—it is a personal transformation.
- Many professionals underestimate how much their identity is tied to work.
- Losing daily structure can create an unexpected emotional void.
- Purpose in retirement often emerges through experimentation and new connections.
- Building community intentionally is essential for well-being after leaving work.
When Retirement Doesn't Feel Like Freedom
For decades, retirement was presented as a reward. Work hard. Save well. Step away. Enjoy the freedom you earned. But for many professionals today, retirement doesn't unfold the way they imagined.
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I speak with Mary Lou "M.L." Mackin, a longtime publishing executive who believed she had carefully planned her retirement—until she discovered that leaving work was far more complex than she expected.
Her story is deeply honest, revealing the emotional and personal realities many professionals face when stepping away from their careers.
When Burnout Leads to Retirement
After years in a demanding and rewarding publishing career, M.L. reached a breaking point. Burned out and exhausted, she made the decision to retire early at age 62.
She did everything right—or so she thought.
She discussed the decision with her husband and financial planner. She negotiated a thoughtful transition with her employer, spending six months training her successor. She entered retirement with travel plans, social gatherings, and a long list of activities she had dreamed about during her working years.
For a while, it felt wonderful.
Then something changed.
"The curtain came up," M.L. shared, "and suddenly I was completely lost."
What followed was something rarely discussed in retirement planning: an emotional struggle with identity, structure, and purpose.
The Hidden Challenges of Retirement
As we explored her experience, four powerful themes emerged—patterns I have seen repeatedly while researching my book Rethink Retirement.
Identity: Who Am I Without My Career?
Many professionals underestimate how deeply their work shapes their identity.
M.L. initially believed she wasn't strongly tied to her career. But once she stepped away, she realized how much of her life had revolved around intellectual engagement, collaboration, travel, and professional achievement.
Without those anchors, she felt untethered.
"I lived and breathed my work," she explained. "Who I was without that—I was lost."
Structure: Too Much Freedom Can Be Difficult
Retirement promises freedom, but unlimited time can be unsettling.
Many people thrive on routines, deadlines, and commitments. When those disappear overnight, a surprising void can emerge.
M.L. described mornings when she had already gone to the gym, had coffee, and suddenly realized there was nothing else planned for the day.
"I had everything planned for retirement," she said. "Except the life I would actually live in it."
Purpose: Why Do I Matter Now?
One of the most profound questions people face in retirement is simple but powerful: Why do I matter now?
Work often provides meaning and a sense of contribution. When it disappears, individuals must redefine how they add value to the world.
For M.L., reconnecting with her publishing network led to freelance work and new creative collaborations. What began as small projects gradually helped restore a sense of purpose.
She now finds fulfillment mentoring others and exploring ways to help people share their stories in the "third act" of life.
Community: Rebuilding Connections
Another unexpected challenge of retirement is the loss of daily social interaction.
Many professionals discover that their primary community existed at work.
To rebuild connection, M.L. made intentional efforts—something she admits was difficult at first. She began conversations at her gym, joined a writing group at her local library, and participated in online discussions with other women navigating retirement transitions.
These small steps led to new friendships and a supportive network.
How Do You Find Purpose After Leaving a Career?
Looking back, M.L. wishes someone had challenged her to think about retirement differently—not just financially, but emotionally and personally.
Her advice is simple but powerful:
- Prepare emotionally, not just financially
- Think about how you will structure your days
- Be honest about how much your work shapes your identity
- Seek community and conversation with others on the same journey
Retirement, she realized, isn't simply an exit from work. It is a transition into a new stage of life that requires intention, reflection, and experimentation.
Why Do Some People Struggle After Retirement?
The most powerful insight from our conversation may be this:
Retirement is not about stopping—it's about choosing what comes next.
As we live longer and healthier lives, the traditional concept of retirement no longer fits many people's realities. Instead, this stage of life can become an opportunity for reinvention, creativity, and renewed purpose.
M.L.'s story reminds us that the journey may include unexpected detours—but it can also lead to meaningful new paths.
As you reflect on your own future, consider this question:
Where do you still want to matter?
Because retirement isn't the end of the story.
It's the beginning of what comes next.
Learn more about Rethink Retirement
Many of the themes in this conversation are explored more deeply in my book Rethink Retirement: It's Not the End, It's the Beginning of What's Next, where I share stories from professionals navigating this transition. Read more about how we help you through transitions.
If you're thinking about your own transition, our Rethink Retirement Masterclass and workshops help participants design a life plan for the next stage of their lives. Check it out here.
To learn more about M.L., reach her here:
Mary Lou's profile: linkedin.com/in/mary-lou-mackin-0347758
Email: limediting22@gmail.com
Listen to the full episode of the On the Brink with Andi Simon podcast to hear Mary Lou Mackin's full story about redefining life after retirement.
Connect with me:
- Join my Substack Newsletter Rethink Retirement
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Book Website: www.andisimon.com
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Now--it is time to share our new book with our listeners. Rethink Retirement: It's Not The End--It's the Beginning of What's Next
Out on Amazon and WalMart, and in your local bookseller. Rethink Retirement: The Workbook
From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Award-winning Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Cognitive neuroscientist Phillip Campbell explains how leaders can improve focus, adaptability, and strategic thinking by strengthening their brain skills. In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, he explores "fluid thinking," the neuroscience behind change, and why developing cognitive adaptability is essential in the age of AI.
Summary In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, cognitive neuroscientist and executive brain coach Phillip Campbell shares powerful insights on how our brains shape our ability to lead, adapt, and innovate. Drawing on decades of research and coaching experience with Fortune 500 executives, Campbell explains why most change initiatives fail, how subconscious brain habits influence our thinking, and why "fluid thinking" is essential in the age of AI. As technological disruption accelerates, leaders who strengthen their brain skills—focus, adaptability, strategic thinking, and creativity—will be better prepared to thrive in uncertainty. This conversation explores how we can literally rewire our brains to improve performance, resilience, and success in a rapidly changing world.
Rewiring the Brain for Success in the Age of AI: Insights from Cognitive Neuroscientist Phillip Campbell How do leaders adapt when change is happening faster than ever before?
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I spoke with Phillip Campbell, a cognitive neuroscientist, executive brain coach, and CEO of enigmaFit . His work focuses on something many leaders overlook: the way our brains are wired to resist change, even when we know intellectually that change is necessary.
Campbell has spent more than 25 years coaching Fortune 500 executives and entrepreneurs around the world. His mission is to help leaders improve their brain skills, adaptability, and cognitive performance—capabilities that are increasingly critical in an era defined by artificial intelligence and constant disruption.
Why Technology Initiatives Often Fail Campbell's journey began with a fascinating insight. Early in his career, he discovered research showing that 70% of technology implementations fail—not because of the technology itself, but because of human resistance to change.
Organizations often invest heavily in systems and tools but overlook the most important element: the human brain.
Campbell realized that successful transformation requires more than training people on new tools. Leaders must understand how individuals think, process information, and respond to uncertainty. When organizations align technology with how people actually work and think, adoption improves dramatically.
This insight led him to develop his executive coaching firm, enigmaFit, and the TRACER methodology, which focuses on rewiring the brain to improve leadership performance.
The Power of "Fluid Thinking" At the center of Campbell's work is the concept of fluid thinking.
Fluid thinking is the brain's ability to adapt, solve new problems, and respond creatively to unfamiliar situations. It differs from what psychologists call crystallized knowledge—the facts and information we already know.
For example:
- Crystallized knowledge: remembering the capital of France.
- Fluid thinking: solving a problem you've never encountered before.
In today's fast-changing world, fluid thinking is becoming far more important. As Campbell explains, AI is transforming work by taking over routine cognitive tasks. That means humans must rely increasingly on adaptability, creativity, and strategic thinking.
For listeners who want to go deeper into Phillip Campbell's work, he has generously provided special offers tied to our conversation.
His book, Brain Habits, is available to listeners at a 20% discount through April 30, reducing the price from $29.95 to $23.95. The book introduces practical ways to strengthen how we think, learn, and solve problems by developing better cognitive habits.
*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" tabindex="-1" data-turn-id= "request-WEB:41f8173c-aa73-4094-807e-8252d63dfbbd-1" data-testid= "conversation-turn-4" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-turn= "assistant"> In addition, Phillip is offering a 50% discount on the Fluid Thinking Profile, an online assessment designed to help individuals understand how they process information, adapt to change, and make decisions in complex environments. The profile normally costs $500 but is available to listeners for $250 through April 30. These resources offer a meaningful way to apply the ideas from our conversation and build stronger thinking skills for work and life.
The Ten Subconscious Brain Habits
Campbell identifies ten subconscious thinking habits—also called brain skills—that determine how effectively we think and perform.
These brain habits influence abilities such as:
- Focus and attention control
- Strategic thinking
- Analytical thinking
- Creativity and innovation
- Adaptability and flexibility
- Leadership and decision-making
One of the most surprising findings from Campbell's work is that 90% of executives have only low to moderate focus thinking.
In other words, many leaders struggle with distraction and attention management. Modern workplaces—with constant emails, messages, and digital notifications—make the challenge even greater.
When leaders strengthen their focus thinking, however, they often gain an extra hour of productive time each day and experience far less mental fatigue.
Why Habits Drive Leadership Performance From an anthropological perspective, this insight is powerful. Human behavior is deeply shaped by habit and subconscious patterns.
Campbell emphasizes that simply telling someone to "be more strategic" or "think more creatively" rarely works. That's because conscious intention cannot override subconscious brain habits.
Instead, the brain must be trained through deliberate practice.
This is similar to learning how to drive a car. At first, driving requires intense concentration. Over time, repeated practice builds neural pathways until driving becomes automatic.
The same principle applies to leadership thinking.
Through structured exercises and cognitive training, individuals can literally rewire the brain's neural architecture.
Brain Capital in the Age of AI Campbell's work aligns with a growing global conversation about "brain capital."
Organizations are beginning to recognize that their most valuable asset is not simply technology or intellectual property—it is the cognitive capability of their people.
According to research highlighted by the World Economic Forum, brain capital includes:
- Brain health (mental well-being)
- Brain skills (thinking abilities)
Companies that invest in strengthening both will have a significant advantage in an AI-driven economy.
Building a Brain Ready for the Future The pace of change in today's world can create stress, anxiety, and burnout. Many professionals feel overwhelmed by the constant pressure to adapt.
Campbell's message is ultimately optimistic.
By strengthening focus, analytical thinking, creativity, and adaptability, individuals can build resilient brains capable of thriving in uncertainty.
In other words, the future belongs not just to those with the most knowledge—but to those with the most adaptable minds.
To learn more about Phillip Campbell and his work:Phillip's profile: linkedin.com/in/phillipcampbell001
Website: enigmafit.com
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Book Website: www.andisimon.com
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Now--it is time to share our new book with our listeners. Rethink Retirement: It's Not The End--It's the Beginning of What's Next.
On Amazon and soon in your local bookseller. Rethink Retirement: The Workbook
Summary: What if work didn't have to feel exhausting, overwhelming, or misaligned with who you are?
In this powerful episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sit down with executive coach and HR consultant Lindsay Barnett, author of Working Hell to Working Well, to explore how individuals and organizations can transform the workplace experience.
In a world where burnout feels commonplace and "busy" has become a badge of honor, what if we paused long enough to ask: Does work have to feel this hard?
Designing the Workplace of Tomorrow, Today
In a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Lindsay Barnett—executive coach, HR consultant, and author of Working Hell to Working Well. Lindsay's journey from anthropology student to organizational change leader offers a fresh and deeply human lens on how we can transform our workplaces—and ourselves.
As someone who often describes myself as a corporate anthropologist, I was delighted to discover Lindsay once used that same phrase. Her academic roots in anthropology and organizational behavior shaped her understanding that companies are, in many ways, small-scale societies. They have rituals, hierarchies, insiders and outsiders, power dynamics, and shared myths. When conflict arises at work, it is rarely just about tasks—it's about people navigating culture.
Lindsey Barnett was Finding Her Through Line
Lindsay's path was anything but linear. She began studying archaeology, fascinated by the lives of people long gone. But as research leaders increasingly asked her to help with team dynamics, she realized her gifts were better used with the living.
She moved into advertising, then human resources, always following a deeper curiosity about human behavior. Later, when her family relocated to Australia, she experienced a powerful shift. As a working mother who suddenly was not working, she confronted a loss of identity.
That moment became pivotal.
Through reflection, Lindsay identified what she calls her "Three I's"—the core needs she must meet to feel fulfilled in her work:
- Intellectual challenge
- Impact
- Interaction
Once she named them, she saw that these needs could be met in multiple ways. Writing children's books, forming a writers' group, and returning to organizational development were not disconnected moves. They were creative responses to those core needs.
There is a powerful lesson here: when you understand what truly energizes you, your options expand dramatically.
The Workplace Stalemate
In Working Hell to Working Well, Lindsay addresses a tension many of us recognize. Leaders often say, "You are responsible for your own wellbeing." Employees respond, "How can I manage my wellbeing when expectations and workloads are out of control?"
The result? A stalemate.
Lindsay's approach is pragmatic. Don't wait for the other side to change. Start with what you can control. Model healthier behaviors. Create safety through example.
When leaders visibly leave work to attend a child's event—or even "leave loudly," as one leader she interviewed described—something shifts. Turning off the lights, closing the laptop, and saying goodbye intentionally signals permission. Culture changes through what is normalized.
The Three P's: A Practical Framework for Working Well
For those who want tools, Lindsay offers a memorable framework: Planning, Pacing, and Playing.
Planning doesn't require a 30-page strategy document. It can be as simple as choosing one intentional action—like buying a larger water bottle to improve hydration. Small commitments, consistently executed, compound into meaningful change.
Pacing involves awareness. Are you rushing blindly toward tasks? Are you collaborating across silos or duplicating effort? Slowing down just enough to ask better questions can unlock faster progress.
Playing introduces experimentation and curiosity. Whether you call it "play" or a "pilot project," approaching change with a spirit of experimentation reduces fear of failure. Play fuels innovation.
These aren't abstract concepts. They are immediately actionable.
Charging Your Energy Battery
Beyond productivity, Lindsay speaks about energy. Traditional advice focuses on sleep, diet, and exercise. While important, she expands the conversation into three types of energy that recharge us:
- Creative Energy: Designing, building, imagining. Creativity restores vitality.
- Connection Energy: Relationships, purpose, time in nature, or alignment with mission.
- Completion Energy: Finishing something—even something small. Making the bed or folding laundry can provide a tangible sense of accomplishment that renews motivation.
During the pandemic, some executives criticized employees for doing laundry at home. Lindsey reframes this. Completion energy matters. Small wins sustain momentum.
As anthropologists of work, we must ask: what assumptions are we carrying about productivity that no longer serve us?
The Power of the Pause
When asked to share her top advice, Lindsey emphasized one simple but profound practice: pause.
In a culture obsessed with output, pausing can feel counterintuitive. Yet it is in the pause that we ask:
- Do I need to be doing this?
- Is there a better way?
- What does my body need right now?
- Who else should be involved?
The pause creates space for intention. And intention drives sustainable change.
Role Modeling Change
Culture does not shift because of policies alone. It shifts because people see others behaving differently and feel safe to do the same.
Whether it's taking a midday walk, setting boundaries around meetings, or openly prioritizing family, visible modeling invites replication.
As Lindsay shared, we don't have to wait for permission to begin.
From Observation to Innovation
What I appreciate most about Lindsay's work is its grounded optimism. She does not deny that workplaces can feel like "working hell." But she believes transformation is possible—through small actions, mindful energy management, and courageous modeling.
As you reflect on your own work life, consider:
- What are your core needs?
- Where could you plan one small shift?
- What might you pace differently?
- How could you introduce more play?
And perhaps most importantly: when will you pause?
If we are willing to observe our own habits with anthropological curiosity, we can turn those observations into innovations. That is how we move—from working hell to working well.
To learn more about Lindsay Barnett and her book, visit your favorite bookseller or connect with her on LinkedIn.
Lindsay's profile: linkedin.com/in/lindsaykbarnett
Website: barnettcoaching.com
Email: lindsay@barnettcoaching.com
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Now--it is time to share our new book with our listeners. Rethink Retirement: It's Not The End--It's the Beginning of What's Next. Out on Amazon and soon in your local bookseller. Rethink Retirement: The Workbook
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Summary: this episode of On the Brink, Andi Simon speaks with Alastair Frost about what it truly means to be future ready in a fast-changing world. Together, they explore how curiosity—asking "why" and "what if" like a child—opens the door to new possibilities, and how reclaiming our natural creativity helps individuals and organizations move beyond comfort and complacency. Rather than trying to predict the future, Frost encourages leaders to focus on what is inevitable and to build the mindset and habits that keep them adaptable, relevant, and ready for whatever comes next.
On On the Brink with Andi Simon, we often explore one central question: how do you keep from getting stuck or stalled in a world that refuses to stand still?
In this episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Allister Frost, a former Microsoft executive turned global keynote speaker and author of Ready Already. Alastair brings a refreshing and deeply practical perspective on what it means to be "future ready" in a time when change feels constant, overwhelming, and unpredictable.
As an anthropologist, I often remind audiences that humans have always been innovators. When our ancestors harnessed fire, they transformed not only how they ate but how their brains evolved. We are, by nature, adaptive and creative. Yet today, many leaders and organizations behave as if stability is the goal and change is the threat.
Allister challenges that thinking.
Change Is Not the Enemy—Complacency Is One of the most powerful ideas in our conversation is this: we are not resistant to change because we dislike it. In fact, as a species, we thrive on it. The problem is not change itself—it's comfort.
Allister contrasts two corporate mindsets from his career. In one company, the mantra was, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." At Microsoft, the philosophy was closer to: "If it works today, it's already becoming obsolete."
That shift—from preservation to proactive reinvention—is at the heart of a future-ready mindset.
But here's the nuance: Alastair doesn't ask leaders to predict the future. Instead, he invites them to prepare for what is inevitable.
The Power of "Inevitable" Rather than speculating about what the world might look like in 20 years, Alastair suggests focusing on what is almost certain to happen in the near term.
Budgets will shift. Technologies will evolve. Customers will change their expectations. Systems that feel new today will eventually become outdated. Leadership will turn over. Markets will fluctuate.
If these shifts are inevitable, then the question becomes: are you ready already?
This approach feels practical and empowering. It pulls futurism out of the abstract and places it squarely in your hands.
The Frost Framework: A Practical Process for Growth Allister has developed what many call the "Frost Framework," a simple but powerful growth cycle that individuals and organizations can use to stay adaptable.
At its core, the process begins with identifying what is inevitable and choosing one area to explore. But the real magic happens in what he calls three human "superpowers"—abilities that artificial intelligence cannot replicate at the same depth:
- Open: Approach your work with childlike curiosity. Ask "Why?" as if you are five years old. Why do we hold this meeting? Why do we serve customers this way? Why does this process exist at all? Curiosity cracks open possibility.
- Surprise: Give yourself permission to imagine bold, even ridiculous ideas. Most innovations begin as ideas that seem impractical. Let your thinking go big before reality trims it down.
- Tell: Courageously share your ideas in a way that invites collaboration. Replace "No, that won't work" with "Yes, and…" That simple shift can transform defensive conversations into generative ones.
What I particularly appreciate is that this process is personal. It's not about waiting for the CEO to hand down the strategy. It's about each individual reconnecting with their own purpose and creativity.
Humility: The Leader's First Step For senior leaders, Allister emphasizes humility. The higher you rise, the easier it is to believe you must have all the answers. In reality, the opposite is true. The future is too complex for any one person to control.
A future-ready leader shifts from being a "know-it-all" to being a "learn-it-all." That humility not only relieves pressure—it unlocks collective intelligence across the organization.
As I often say, humans are copycats. If leaders model curiosity, openness, and experimentation, others will follow.
Reclaiming Your Creative Mind One of the most striking moments in our conversation was when Alastair described how people physically shrink when he mentions creativity.
"I'm not creative," they say.
But if you can daydream, you are creative.
Creativity isn't confined to a whiteboard in a dark conference room. It happens on morning walks, in the quiet moments between sleep and waking, in conversations where someone asks "What if?"
In fact, one of my favorite stories from our discussion involved a sales leader who realized that every time a client asked "What if?" he had ignored it. Yet that's where the opportunity lived. He returned home and built an entirely new "What If" sales process.
That's the shift—from defending the status quo to exploring possibility.
Ready Already In a time when so many feel overwhelmed by uncertainty, this episode is a reminder that you do not need to predict the future. You need to prepare your mindset.
Be curious. Focus on what is inevitable. Use your uniquely human superpowers. Lead with humility. Ask "What if?"
The times are changing. But they always have.
The question is not whether change will come.
The question is: are you ready already?
For more information about Allister Frost:
Allister's profile
linkedin.com/in/allisterspeaks
Website
allisterspeaks.com (Personal)
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Watch for our new book, Rethink Retirement: It's Not The End--It's the Beginning of What's Next. Due out Spring 2026.
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
What Sets Humans Apart? Key lessons from my conversation with Dr. Robin Hills .As artificial intelligence accelerates and reshapes how we work, learn, and communicate, one question keeps resurfacing: What remains uniquely human?
That was at the heart of my recent On the Brink conversation with Dr. Robin Hills, a business psychologist and one of the world's leading voices on emotional intelligence. Our discussion offered both reassurance and challenge—especially for leaders navigating rapid change, generational shifts, and technology-driven uncertainty.
Here are the key lessons that stood out.
-
Emotional intelligence is not "soft"—it is foundational Emotional intelligence (EI) is often mislabeled as a soft skill. In reality, it is a core operating system for effective leadership, collaboration, and decision-making. As Robin explained, EI is about being smart with your feelings—integrating emotion and cognition to respond thoughtfully rather than react impulsively. This matters because emotions are not optional. They are physiological and psychological responses to our environment. The choice is not whether emotions will influence us, but whether we will learn to work with them skillfully.
-
Self-regulation is becoming a critical leadership skill One of the most striking themes was self-regulation—our ability to pause, choose, and respond intentionally. In a world of constant notifications, endless information, and emotional triggers, self-regulation is increasingly difficult and increasingly essential.
Robin highlighted how our attachment to devices can undermine emotional awareness, presence, and learning. When leaders (and teams) cannot disengage long enough to listen, reflect, or engage meaningfully, they lose both insight and connection. Mastering technology rather than being mastered by it is now part of emotional intelligence.
- Emotional intelligence must be learned—and relearned We often assume people "pick up" emotional skills naturally. Yet many do not. Education systems may introduce emotional awareness early, but rarely sustain it through adolescence, higher education, or professional life.
The pandemic amplified this gap. Younger generations lost critical years of social learning, while adults themselves were stretched emotionally. Rather than blaming or labeling behaviors, the opportunity now is to rebuild emotional skills deliberately—in schools, workplaces, and leadership development programs.
- AI will not replace what makes us human Despite growing fears about artificial intelligence, Robin was clear: AI does not have emotions, empathy, purpose, or meaning. It cannot truly collaborate, lead, or innovate in the human sense.
What AI can do is free us from routine tasks—making our emotional and relational capabilities even more valuable. Creativity, empathy, ethical judgment, perspective-taking, and meaning-making are not threatened by AI; they are highlighted by it.
The more technology advances, the more human skills matter.
- Emotional intelligence gives us choice Perhaps the most powerful insight was this: emotional intelligence gives us choice. Choice in how we respond under pressure. Choice in how we communicate across differences. Choice in how we turn uncertainty into opportunity rather than fear.
We will not get it right every time. As Robin noted, if you respond well eight times out of ten, you are doing well. The work is learning from the other two—without self-criticism, and with curiosity.
A final reflection As an anthropologist, I see emotional intelligence as part of how humans adapt. Our brains may resist change, but our capacity to learn, empathize, and create meaning has allowed us to thrive across millennia.
In a world reshaped by AI, emotional intelligence is not a "nice to have." It is how we remain human, relevant, and resilient—at work and in life.
If this conversation sparked new ways of seeing, feeling, or thinking, that is exactly the point.
Watch our podcast interview here.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
From Observation to Innovation,
Andi SImon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Humans need connection—not as a luxury, but as a foundation for thriving. Yet, in our hyper-connected world, loneliness persists. On this episode of On the Brink, I sat down with Todd Nilson, a community strategist with 25 years of experience in digital transformation and marketing for brands like Activision, Facebook, and SAP, to unpack what real community means and how to build it with intention.
Who is Todd Nilson? Todd's journey began in journalism, driven by an authentic curiosity about people and their stories. That passion evolved into a commitment to "building a bigger family"—creating spaces where trust and belonging are central. He's clear: community isn't a "soft" strategy; it's essential for individual and organizational wellbeing.
We explored the difference between networks and communities. Social platforms may connect thousands, but true communities are intimate, purposeful, and safe. As Todd put it, a network is like a busy freeway—you can make friends, but it's not where you belong. Real communities are built in "cozy warrens": discussion forums, private groups, and member spaces that foster trust and meaningful exchange.
The technology for online communities is abundant, but Todd warns: tools alone don't build belonging. Trust is foundational. He outlined three layers of safety—trustworthy platforms, credible conveners, and benevolent members—enabling honest sharing and engagement. He shared the example of Truth Initiative, whose online community helps people quit smoking and vaping. There, anonymity and trust turn participation into a true "return on life."
Watch Todd Nilson on Youtube
Understanding Community in a Time of AI Organizations and associations often struggle to sustain engagement beyond annual events. Todd believes communities should keep people connected to their mission year-round, deepen commitment, and serve as pipelines for volunteers or future staff. However, he cautions against focusing solely on technology while neglecting the ongoing stewardship that makes communities thrive. People—not platforms—build lasting connections.
Community success is a program, not a project. You can't just launch a platform and expect results. Todd stresses the importance of having a dedicated human facilitator—more concierge than manager—who welcomes, connects, and guides members. While AI can help with moderation, it can't replace human warmth or judgment.
We also discussed the importance of strategic clarity: before asking for proof of ROI, organizations must define their community's purpose. What are the desired outcomes—reduced costs, improved retention, innovation? Community design must align with both organizational goals and member needs, even when those priorities differ.
Hybrid models work best. Online and offline communities reinforce each other, extending the sense of belonging and engagement. Tools like the Sense of Community Index 2 can help organizations measure how well their community fosters connection and contribution.
Culturally, we're faced with an "always open buffet" of groups, but meaningful community requires intentional participation, not just passive consumption. We must choose where to invest our attention, seeking out spaces that truly feed us personally and professionally.
Big Ideas for Fast-Changing Times Todd left us with two takeaways: First, plan for purpose—define who your community is for, why it exists, and the unique value it offers. Second, embrace emergent design—start small, let the community evolve, and focus on trust and gradual growth rather than a massive launch.
Ultimately, community is a driver of wellbeing—crucial not only at work but also in life's transitions, such as retirement. Whether you're building community for your organization or your next chapter, remember: networks aren't belonging, and community doesn't happen by accident. Purpose, trust, and stewardship make it real. Thanks for tuning in, and thank you to Todd Nelson for sharing such valuable insights.
Want to keep the conversation going? Learn more about Todd Nelson's work in community strategy, and let us know what community means to you.
From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Award-winning Author Simonassociates.net andisimon.com Info@simonassociates.net LinkedIn
As artificial intelligence accelerates, many leaders, founders, and professionals are quietly asking the same question: Where do I still matter? If machines can write, analyze, summarize, and even "sound" human, what is left that cannot be automated?
In this episode of On the Brink, I sat down with branding strategist and neuroscientist-turned-entrepreneur Carey James, co-founder of Brand Alchemy, to explore why a personal brand—not technology—is becoming the defining asset of the future.
What emerged was a powerful reframing of branding—not as self-promotion, but as survival.
Branding Isn't About Visibility—It's About Trust Carey's journey began in neuroscience labs and academic research, where brilliant minds often remain invisible. In these labs, the work mattered deeply, yet few people beyond their field ever heard about it. That disconnect led him to a simple realization: impact doesn't scale unless people know who you are.
Branding, in Carey's view, is not about being flashy or loud. It is about becoming trustable at scale.
Human beings evolved to live in tribes. We trusted the hunter, the healer, the builder—not because of logos or résumés, but because we knew who they were. That same ancient wiring still governs modern decision-making. Whether we are choosing a consultant, an executive hire, a keynote speaker, or a company to invest in, the first question is rarely "Is this organization impressive?" It is almost always: Do I trust this person?
Your Name Is the Asset—Not the Logo One of Carey's most important insights is deceptively simple: your personal name is likely the most valuable asset you will ever own.
Companies come and go. Products evolve. Roles change. But trust attached to your name transfers from project to project. This is why serial entrepreneurs can fail, pivot, and succeed again—while others disappear after one setback.
In the age of AI, this becomes even more critical. You will not always be the smartest voice in the room. Algorithms already out-compute us. What they cannot replicate, however, is your lived experience, judgment, pattern recognition, and imperfections. Those human elements—your way of thinking, questioning, connecting ideas—are what create differentiation.
The "Label on the Bottle" Problem Most people struggle to articulate their own brand because they are trapped inside it. Carey calls this the label-on-the-bottle syndrome: when you are inside the bottle, you cannot see the label.
The solution is not more introspection—it is perspective. Carey encourages leaders to do what great organizations already do through 360-degree reviews: ask others how they experience you. Patterns emerge quickly. Strengths, quirks, values, and stories surface that feel obvious to everyone else—but invisible to you.
This external clarity becomes the foundation of an authentic brand, not a manufactured one.
Watch our podcast with Carey James here. Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Watch for our new book, Rethink Retirement: It's Not The End--It's the Beginning of What's Next. Due out Spring 2026.
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
What if the fastest route to meaningful growth isn't about launching another ad campaign, hiring more salespeople, or optimizing your funnel? What if the real accelerator is simply listening—really listening—to what's already happening around you?
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Oscar Barrera, PhD—a brilliant corporate anthropologist and innovation strategist based in Mexico. Oscar and I share a core conviction: anthropology isn't just something you do; it's a way of seeing the world. It allows leaders to notice subtle patterns—those taking shape in their markets, inside their own companies, and in the everyday lives of their customers—even when the clues are hiding in plain sight.
Oscar's work drives home a powerful point: the real obstacles to growth are often hidden. Not because they're imaginary, but because we haven't been trained to spot them.
Meet Dr. Oscar Barrera: An Anthropologist Forging His Own Path Oscar's journey is as unconventional as it is inspiring. He earned his doctorate in social and cultural anthropology at the University of Washington, with years of fieldwork in Guatemala's highlands. But like so many academics, he realized that the expected career path—university teaching—wasn't really available. So Oscar got creative. He returned home to Mexico and started his own consulting practice from the ground up. He learned the language of business by reading voraciously, listening intently, and immersing himself in the entrepreneurial world—joining business groups, building relationships, and cultivating a brand that helped business leaders understand how anthropology could transform what they do.
Through his firm, Antropologia Corporativa, Oscar helps organizations unlock deep understanding about their customers, employees, and markets—then turn those insights into human-centered strategies for growth and innovation. He also hosts a fantastic podcast called Nuevas Posibilidades ("New Possibilities"), which explores innovation, anthropology, and the future of work.
A Real-World Case: Sourdough in a Sweet Bread Nation Oscar shared a wonderful story that brings anthropology to life. A bakery owner in Mexico was crafting sourdough bread: wholesome, preservative-free, and free of additives. But he was up against a market where bread is usually sweet, steeped in tradition, and sold cheaply.
Here's the twist: the bakery wasn't struggling with demand. Instead, something unexpected was happening—distributors (mostly women) were approaching the bakery on their own, asking if they could resell the bread in their hometowns.
The owner's question wasn't theoretical—it was urgent: Who are these women, and how can I grow this kind of distribution model intentionally? As he put it, he wanted "the formula."
Why Anthropology Was Essential Oscar's first instinct was to do what anthropologists do best: ethnography. Go to the site, observe, listen, and understand the full context. But travel simply wasn't possible. So he adapted, because good anthropology is all about flexibility. He used remote interviews—speaking with distributors and customers over the phone and online. And what he learned should be a wake-up call for every leader: People will tell you what matters to them—if you listen with the right kind of attention.
Oscar was surprised that sometimes meeting online made people more comfortable. It was safe, structured, and time-limited—there was no lingering vulnerability once the conversation ended.
Watch our Podcast on YouTube
The Discovery: A Purpose-Driven Sales Network The bakery owner assumed his distributors were motivated by money. Oscar found something far richer. These women were selling bread not just for income, but because they:
- Had personal or family health concerns
- Wanted to support and uplift their communities
- Believed deeply in natural, preservative-free foods
- Had stories that connected them emotionally to the product
They weren't just pushing a product—they were sharing a solution and part of their own identities. They were savvy, too, introducing the bread at workplaces, gyms, and local events. Tasting led to trust—and more sales.
This was no "features and benefits" transaction. This bread was an experience—one that resonated with values and stories.
Five Key Ingredients for Scalable Growth Oscar translated these insights into actionable steps. He identified five elements that would determine whether the bakery's model could truly scale:
- Shared values and philosophy: The top distributors believed in a mission: boosting health and helping people, not just selling bread.
- Time and logistics: Without preservatives and in a hot climate, bread spoiled quickly. Delivery schedules and pickups became hidden bottlenecks.
- Packaging matters: Flimsy boxes led to crushed loaves—hurting both trust and credibility.
- Social selling support: Distributors used WhatsApp and Facebook, but needed better tools and content. The company needed to provide easily shareable visuals and educational materials.
- Customer experience and sampling: People didn't buy from a description—they bought after tasting. Real-life sampling was the engine of growth.
What I love here is that Oscar didn't need a formal operations report to uncover these constraints. He surfaced them by deeply listening to lived experience—by drawing out stories.
Bigger Than Bread: How Meaning Moves Markets One of the most profound insights was symbolic. Sourdough isn't "traditional Mexican bread." Yet, through the personal stories of these women, it became a bridge: a way to enjoy bread as part of daily life, to choose health without abandoning cultural identity, and to stay connected to tradition while eating differently. That's not just good marketing—it's anthropology in action.
Lessons for Leaders Everywhere Oscar summed it up beautifully: Success often hides in plain sight, in details we overlook. Anthropology equips leaders and companies to see what's invisible and hear what's unsaid. True innovation doesn't always mean inventing something totally new—it often means listening to what your customers are already telling you.
So here's my bottom line: If you're chasing growth, don't just ask, "How do we sell more?" Instead, ask, "What's actually happening in the lives of the people we want to serve that we haven't noticed yet?" When you listen for those answers, real transformation can begin.
Connect with Oscar Barrera, PhD If you'd like to connect with Oscar, you can find him on LinkedIn,
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Watch for our new book, Rethink Retirement: It's Not The End--It's the Beginning of What's Next. Due out Spring 2026.
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
"Curiosity isn't a soft skill. It's a performance capability—and organizations are paying the price for ignoring it." Summary What if the most powerful leadership capability isn't having the right answers—but asking better questions? In this On the Brink with Andi Simon episode, Dr. Deborah Clary, author of The Curiosity Curve, explains why curiosity is a measurable driver of performance, engagement, and innovation—and how leaders can deliberately rebuild it to create stronger, more human-centered cultures.
Why Curiosity May Be the Missing Link in Leadership and Culture Change In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Deborah Clary, author of The Curiosity Curve and a purpose-driven leader whose work sits at the intersection of leadership development, organizational culture, and performance. What emerged from our conversation was both refreshing and deeply needed: a reminder that curiosity—something many leaders unintentionally abandon as they rise—may be the very capability organizations need most right now .
Deborah's journey is anything but linear. Straight out of business school, she began her career not in a corporate office but as a route driver for Frito-Lay in Detroit—wearing a uniform, managing a route, and learning leadership from the inside out. That truck, she says, became her classroom. Over the next four decades, Deborah moved through senior roles at Coca-Cola, Jack Daniel's, and Humana, eventually earning a PhD focused on leadership development and organizational design. Yet it was her growing fascination with human behavior—what makes leaders effective and cultures thrive—that ultimately shaped her work today .
What Is Curiosity—Really? Deborah defines curiosity simply but powerfully: being genuinely interested in yourself, in others, and in the situation at hand. It's not about having the right answers. It's about asking better questions—and staying open long enough to explore them.
That distinction matters, especially in organizations where leaders often believe their role is to know, decide, and direct. As Deborah shared, many leaders become "incurious" not because they lack interest, but because time pressures, performance demands, and past success reinforce the idea that they must always have the answer. Over time, curiosity is treated like a luxury—when in fact, research shows it is a driver of performance .
The Engagement Crisis—and Why Leaders Matter More Than Ever One of the most striking parts of our conversation focused on employee disengagement. Gallup data shows engagement levels at historic lows, with millennials—now a critical segment of the leadership pipeline—showing especially high levels of disengagement. When Deborah and her research team conducted focus groups, they found a consistent theme: "My leader doesn't know me—and doesn't seem to care to know me."
This wasn't about surface-level recognition or personal details. Employees wanted leaders to be curious about their ideas, their aspirations, and how they could contribute meaningfully. In other words, they wanted leaders who asked thoughtful questions instead of simply providing directives.
Curiosity, Measured—and Made Actionable What makes Deborah's work especially compelling is that curiosity isn't treated as a vague personality trait. Through a validated assessment, she measures curiosity across four dimensions:
- Exploration
- Openness to new ideas
- Inspirational creativity
- Focused engagement
In one executive team she worked with, the results revealed a powerful—and uncomfortable—truth. While most executives scored high in curiosity, the CEO did not. The organization was struggling with innovation, market share, and retention. When the data was shared openly, the CEO recognized that his resistance—not the team—was the bottleneck. His willingness to acknowledge this became a breakthrough moment for the organization .
That story underscores a central theme of the episode: leaders shape culture not by intention alone, but by how open—or closed—they are to curiosity.
Watch our podcast on YouTube.
From Short-Term Answers to Long-Term Leadership Curious leadership, Deborah explained, is about playing the long game. The short game is giving answers. The long game is exploring possibilities, testing ideas, and learning from outcomes—even when they fail.
This requires psychological safety. Leaders must normalize statements like, "I don't know—let's explore this together."When leaders model curiosity, they give others permission to think, experiment, and grow. Over time, this builds confidence, ownership, and engagement across the organization .
Why This Matters Now? In fast-changing markets, yesterday's solutions rarely solve tomorrow's problems. Yet many organizations still rely on outdated assumptions, rigid hierarchies, and fear of failure. As an anthropologist, I see this pattern often: cultures resist change even when change is essential.
Curiosity interrupts that pattern. It helps leaders see what they've been missing, hear voices that have been quiet, and test new ways forward. In Deborah's words, curiosity is contagious—and learnable. It can be rebuilt, one question at a time.
If you're a leader navigating uncertainty, disengaged teams, or stalled innovation, this conversation offers both insight and hope. You don't need all the answers. But you do need the courage to ask better questions.
And that may be exactly what helps you—and your organization—get off the brink.
For more about Debra Clary, check out her website and LinkedIn Page.
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
"People aren't broken," she told me. "Our job is not to fix them. It's to hold them whole and complete." On this episode of On the Brink, I had the privilege of speaking with a remarkable woman whose life journey embodies resilience, reinvention, and the profound power of choosing joy. Nicki Keohohou—bestselling author, award-winning entrepreneur, global speaker, and founder of Coach School—joined me from her home in Hawaii to reflect on the experiences that shaped her, the wisdom she teaches, and the mindset shifts we all need in today's uncertain world.
Nicki's path wasn't linear. She began as a teacher helping children build self-esteem and confidence. She later moved into her family's business, then into the world of direct selling, where she discovered her love for helping people grow. That passion evolved into founding the Direct Selling Women's Alliance and ultimately creating Coach School—programs that train leaders, educators, executives, and couples to coach through empathy, inquiry, and empowerment rather than advice-giving.
What unifies Nicki's story is a belief that has guided her since childhood: life is abundant, people are capable, and every moment contains a choice.
Watch our Podcast here on YouTube:
The Power of Coaching: Asking Instead of Telling Nicki admits she wasn't a natural coach at first. Like many leaders, she began by telling people what to do. But she soon realized that the most powerful breakthroughs happen when people discover their own answers.
She teaches coaching not just to executives, but to educators, medical professionals, sales teams—and even couples—because the skill of asking empowering questions transforms how people think, communicate, and relate.
Her philosophy is simple: When people find their own solutions, they own them. And when they own them, they act.
Why We're All Struggling Right Now Nicki works around the world, and she sees what many of us feel: people are more anxious, overwhelmed, and uncertain than ever. The economy, politics, global tensions, and constant disruption amplify our sense of helplessness.
Her response? A model she teaches called "the bagel."
- The outer ring—the disempowerment zone—contains everything we cannot control (other people's opinions, world events, the economy, traffic, the past).
- The center—the empowerment zone—holds what we can control (our thoughts, our choices, our words, our actions, the meaning we assign to events).
Most people live on the outer ring. Nicki helps them move to the center.
How to Shift Your Mindset (Even in Hard Times) Many of Nicki's insights come from deeply personal experiences—including a devastating fall in Dubai that led to multiple surgeries, months of rehabilitation, and time spent in a nursing home. Instead of asking "Why me?" she asked: "What can I do with this situation?"
She coached the staff. She uplifted patients. She even unknowingly taught a woman through the wall who listened to every class and filled an entire notebook with lessons.
Her message is clear: You may not choose what happens to you, but you always choose how you respond.
Key Takeaways from Nicki Keohohou 1. Happiness is a choice—and a practice. You can always look for what's wrong or what's right. Your mind will believe whichever story you tell it.
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What you feed your mind at night shapes your next day. Avoid violent TV, tense news, or negative scrolling before bed. Instead ask:
-
What is the best thing that happened today?
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What am I grateful for?
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Self-coaching questions can instantly shift your emotional state. Try:
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How would I prefer to feel right now?
- What's the opposite of this thought?
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What do I actually have control over in this moment?
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Joy compounds when shared. A smile, a kind comment, or a small gesture changes not just someone else's day—it elevates your own.
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Simplicity reduces stress. Choose calm over drama. Choose presence over pressure. Choose perspective over frustration.
Actionable Advice You Can Use Today 1. Start your morning with intention. Ask:
- What am I excited about today?
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Whose life can I make better today?
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Create an accomplishment list—not a to-do list. * Shift from obligation to opportunity.
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Practice the "bagel model." Whenever stress rises, pause and ask:
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Is this in the empowerment zone? Or the disempowerment zone? If you can't control it—redirect your energy.
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Adopt the "rain mindset." * Instead of "Ugh, it's raining," try: "The rain is feeding my flowers." Reframe, and your brain will follow.
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Give gratitude away freely. * Say thank you. Compliment someone. Share something small. Science tells us that gratitude boosts the giver's happiness even more than the receiver's.
Final Thoughts Nicki's story is a radiant reminder that your reality is shaped by the narrative you choose. You can choose joy. You can choose possibility. You can choose to smile at strangers and uplift the people around you. And you can choose to rewrite your story—every morning and every night.
As she told me, "Bring joy and give joy. It doesn't cost anything."
If you'd like to learn more or reach Nicki directly, you can find her at: Nicki@coachschool.com or call (800) 856-1662 (Hawaii time!).
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
The first step to transformation is to stop doing what no longer works." – Marcia Daszko On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sat down with Marcia Daszko, a visionary leadership consultant and author of Pivot, Disrupt, Transform: How Leaders Beat the Odds and Survive. Marcia's journey—from being "excruciatingly shy" to mentoring leaders at Apple, Boeing, and the U.S. Navy—reveals a rare combination of courage, curiosity, and clarity. Her lessons, rooted in the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming, challenge leaders to abandon outdated management practices and embrace a deeper, systems-based way of thinking.
From Management Fads to Meaningful Leadership Marcia began her career in marketing before being mentored by Dr. Perry Gluckman, a close associate of Dr. Deming, who revolutionized management thinking through systems theory and continuous improvement. What she learned was not just what to do, but how to think.
Too often, organizations chase the latest management fad—Six Sigma, Lean, "best practices"—without understanding the systems that create real success. Marcia calls these "tragedies" because they add complexity without meaning. She estimates that 50 to 80 percent of organizational waste comes from such misguided efforts.
Her process begins with a bold question: "What do we need to stop doing?" Once leaders remove what's not working, they can open the flow of communication, creativity, and collaboration—what Marcia calls the "system of profound knowledge." When systems make sense, people thrive.
Watch the podcast here: Learning to See Differently Like many of my guests, Marcia helps organizations "see, feel, and think" in new ways. She starts by asking questions that uncover hidden assumptions and systemic barriers. Employees usually know what's wrong, she says, but no one listens.
When she leads workshops, she doesn't rely on PowerPoint slides. Instead, she creates experiences—conversations, simulations, and reflections—that shift perspectives. "I don't get resistance," she explains, "because the exercises take care of that."
It's an anthropologist's insight wrapped in a strategist's toolkit: people don't change because they're told to—they change because they experience a new way of being together.
The Strategic Compass for an Uncertain Future In today's world of disruption, Marcia argues that leaders don't need a roadmap—they need a compass. The future can't be predicted; it must be navigated through exploration, experimentation, and learning. Her Strategic Compass helps executives pivot as they encounter new "rivers and mountains" in their business landscape.
Leadership, she reminds us, is not about control but curiosity. The most powerful organizations foster environments where everyone can learn, question, and contribute. Her three "legs of the stool" are:
- Innovation as a business strategy
- Continuous improvement as a business strategy
- Quality as a business strategy
Sadly, she says, quality and customer service—once foundational to success—have too often been forgotten.
Building a Culture of Trust and Curiosity Both Marcia and I share a passion for culture change. She emphasizes that great leaders reduce fear and build trust. When people feel safe, they can be curious and collaborative. It's not enough to post company values on a wall; leaders must define the behaviors that bring those values to life.
Her workshops often transform even the most rigid workplaces. In one session, an employee of 15 years said it was the first time he had felt truly appreciated and engaged. That's the power of inclusion, curiosity, and respect in action.
Leading in the Age of AI As we discussed the rise of artificial intelligence, Marcia was unequivocal: "If you're afraid of AI, you'll be left behind." She sees AI not as a threat but as a tool for learning and transformation. The challenge, she warns, is to build guardrails—policies and ethics that guide its use responsibly.
In an age when consulting firms can generate proposals in minutes, leaders must rethink how people create value. The winners will be those who empower their teams to use new tools, think critically, and continuously learn.
Key Takeaways * Stop before you start. Identify and eliminate wasteful management practices that add complexity without results. * Think in systems. Every part of your organization is interconnected. Problems are rarely isolated. * Create flow. Open channels for communication, creativity, and collaboration. * Replace fear with trust. People thrive when they feel safe to contribute. * Stay curious. Learning is not a phase—it's a way of life. * Use AI wisely. Embrace new tools, but balance innovation with ethical governance.
What You Can Do Next 1. Run a "Stop Doing" audit. Gather your team and list processes or habits that no longer serve your mission. Eliminate one per quarter. 2. Host a curiosity circle. Ask open-ended questions like, "What assumptions are we making?" or "What would our customers say if they were in this room?" 3. Map your system. Visualize how information, decisions, and accountability flow. Look for bottlenecks or blind spots. 4. Pair technology with humanity. Use AI or analytics to inform—not replace—human judgment. 5. Model the behavior you want to see. As Marcia says, leadership begins when everyone sees themselves as a leader.
Marcia Daszko's work reminds us that transformation is not about new tools—it's about new thinking. If you're ready to pivot from managing the past to creating the future, this episode will show you how.
To learn more about Marcia: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marciadaszko/
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
What happens when two powerful women—one a psychologist devoted to leadership transformation and the other a CEO who grew up in a family-run business—join forces to rethink what it means to lead? They discover the "Sixth Level" of Leadership! On this episode of On the Brink, Stacy Feiner, PsyD and Rachel Wallis Andreasson, MBA invite us to imagine leadership not as a position of power, but as a practice rooted in purpose, connection and care.
The Birth of the Sixth Level
Stacy Feiner, a high-performance psychologist and coach, has long focused on helping family and mid-market companies unlock the emotional dynamics that drive sustainable success. Her fascination with human potential began early—her mother introduced her to the groundbreaking Self-in-Relation theory at Wellesley's Stone Center, which challenged male-centered models of psychology and placed women's experiences at the center of understanding human behavior.
From that foundation grew The Sixth Level: Capitalize on the Power of Women's Psychology for Sustainable Leadership, co-authored with Rachel Wallis Andreasson, Kathy Overbeke, DBA, and Jack Harris, PhD. The book expands on the belief that women's relational intelligence—empathy, collaboration, and the ethic of care—is not a deviation from leadership excellence but its evolution.
Watch our video on Sixth Level Leadership here From Gas Station to $2 Billion Company
Rachel Wallis Andreasson's story grounds those ideas in lived experience. The daughter of a gas-station owner on Route 66, she watched her father grow one small shop into a company now approaching $2 billion in annual sales. He modeled three values that remain central to her leadership: a strong work ethic, genuine care for people, and shared ownership through open communication.
"When my dad walked into one of our stores," she recalls, "he didn't just check the numbers—he asked employees for their opinions. And then he used their ideas."
Rachel worked for her family business for 24 years, rising to CEO and overseeing more than 1,100 employees. She is most proud of the cultural integration of the largest and most strategic acquisition of the company's history. Rachel builds cultures where people feel seen, heard, and trusted. Her philosophy mirrors her father's wisdom—lead by example, connect with authenticity, and invite others to own the company's success.
The Four Core Differentiators of Sixth-Level Leadership
At the heart of The Sixth Level are four principles that originate in women's social-psychology and form the basis of transformational leadership:
- Mutuality — Two-way empathy and shared purpose that align people behind a common vision.
- Ingenuity — Creative problem-solving that benefits the collective, not just the individual.
- Justness — Inclusion, accountability and equity built on transparency and trust.
- Intrinsic Motivation — Leading from within, not for external reward or authority.
These are not soft skills—they are strategic capabilities that strengthen performance, retention, and resilience. "Accountability," Feiner explains, "doesn't start at the end of a project. It begins at the beginning, as a promise we make to each other to achieve success together."
A Story of Transformation
One of the book's most vivid case studies features Lisa, president of a rural Missouri hospital. Stepping into her role during the height of COVID-19, she found a demoralized staff, fragmented teams, and exhausted caregivers.
Instead of imposing control, Lisa began by listening. She conducted open "snack-cart sessions" with employees, asking questions, sharing food, and gathering stories. From those conversations came a rallying cry—One Heart, One Team.
Lisa modeled the change she wanted to see, shadowing every department, empowering cross-functional collaboration, and celebrating ingenuity at every level. The results were astonishing: record financial performance, unprecedented patient-satisfaction scores, and a palpable sense of unity across the hospital.
"Transformation," says Andreasson, "is tangible. When you walk into that hospital today, you feel the caring culture. You feel 'One Heart, One Team.' "
Beyond Self-Awareness to Relational Awareness
Feiner believes traditional leadership training—often built on male norms—emphasizes self-control and individual performance. The Sixth Level expands that frame to relational awareness: how leaders build trust, reciprocity, and shared accountability.
"We've been taught that leadership is about dominance and hierarchy," she says. "But sustainable success comes from mutuality—the capacity to care for others while driving results. Everyone can learn it. It's a human capability."
A Model for All Leaders
Although the book is rooted in women's social-psychology, both authors stress it is not for women only. Men thrive in Sixth Level environments too. "Command-and-control cultures haven't served anyone," Feiner notes. "When we bring the full picture—empathetic and analytical thinking together—we create workplaces where everyone can flourish."
Andreasson agrees: "Culture is the secret weapon. The Sixth Level isn't a theory—it's a roadmap for building engaged teams, inclusive organizations, and caring communities."
Rethinking What Leadership Looks Like
As I reflected at the end of the conversation, the Sixth Level calls us to re-imagine leadership "not as power, but as purpose, connection, and deep relational intelligence." It's an invitation for all leaders—men and women alike—to claim a model that validates empathy, communication, and community as powerful drivers of performance.
Perhaps the truest measure of success is what both Feiner and Andreasson have modeled themselves: leading with heart, lifting others, and proving that when we care for people, performance naturally follows.
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
On this episode of On the Brink, I sat down with Dr. Max Teplitski—Chief Science Officer at the International Fresh Produce Association (IFPA)—to explore how a mindset is reshaping food safety, member value, and the future of a global industry. Max has practiced Blue Ocean thinking since his days as a professor, and today he's applying it at scale across a trade association that represents the entire fresh produce supply chain—from seed and inputs to retailers worldwide.
From Competing to Creating: IFPA's Three Strategic Pillars Rather than fighting for attention in crowded "red oceans," IFPA reframed growth around three pillars that create new value for members and consumers alike:
- Future-proofing the industry amid climate volatility, supply chain complexity, and labor constraints.
- Worldwide influence for a global industry, recognizing interconnected markets and trade rules.
- Personalized member experience at scale—so each company (and individual) gets relevant, timely insight.
This is classic Blue Ocean Strategy®: reduce what no longer adds value, eliminate legacy activities that drain resources, raise what customers truly care about, and create new offerings that unlock demand.
Want a concise primer? Read our FAQ: What is Blue Ocean Strategy and Why It's the Smartest Way to Rethink Growth
Personalization at Scale: AI That Stays Inside the (Trusted) Data One of IFPA's boldest moves is an AI-powered intelligence engine built on verified, curated data. Members can ask context-rich questions—"I'm in the Florida Panhandle planting winter crops; should I prioritize Asian greens, spinach, or baby lettuce?"—and receive synthesized answers spanning consumer trends, point-of-sale data, and operational considerations. The goal isn't more email; it's relevance on demand.
This same platform enables on-demand micro-training. Need a five-minute safety huddle for a harvest crew—in Portuguese? The agent can generate it instantly from vetted guidance. That's value innovation: meeting real-world needs at the moment of work.
Watch our video here Food Safety as a Promise—and a System Because most fresh produce is consumed raw, food safety is a shared responsibility between the producer and the consumer. IFPA's "supply chain of the future" work extends beyond traceability to quality, shelf-life, and incentives. With lot-level tracking and standardized practices—from field handwashing stations to controlled processing protocols—the industry continues to elevate both safety and transparency while extracting actionable value from the data generated along the way.
Advocacy and a Community of Practice Some work will never be outsourced to algorithms. Advocacy—telling the industry's story to regulators and decision-makers—remains human, relational, and essential. In parallel, IFPA is designing a community of practice for food safety and sustainability professionals. Whether virtual, in-person, or hybrid, the north star is the same: connect practitioners to share what works, accelerate learning, and scale innovation.
Culture Eats Strategy (and Then Powers It) Max underscores a truth we see in every successful transformation: strategy only sticks when culture supports it. IFPA treats culture as a system—meeting quarterly to practice competencies such as trust, communication, and agility, and to build behaviors into everyone's plan. That operating rhythm makes it easier to reduce or eliminate legacy programs and redirect resources toward higher-value offerings without losing the organization in the process.
Three Takeaways You Can Use Now 1. Stop competing; start creating. Use the Four Actions Framework to eliminate, reduce, raise, and build around what your customers actually value. 2. Deliver relevance at the moment of need. Move from content push to context-aware personalization (AI helps when it's grounded in trustworthy data). 3. Design for culture change, not just strategy change. Build the muscle—trust, communication, and agility—so your team can live the strategy.
Blue Ocean Strategy isn't about inventing the next iPhone; it's about assembling a thoughtful portfolio that meets unmet needs better, faster, and more sustainably than the market expects. IFPA's journey shows how nonprofits and associations can open new market space—not by shouting louder, but by serving smarter.
Further reading: FAQ – What is Blue Ocean Strategy and Why It's the Smartest Way to Rethink Growth
And our white paper: Time to Find Your Blue Ocean Strategy
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Books: Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! [block id="blog-signature"]
Peace Through Business: Building Peace by Empowering Women Entrepreneurs In a world often torn by conflict, peace through business may sound like a lofty goal. Yet for nearly two decades, that's exactly what Dr. Terry Neese , Monica Smiley, and the Peace Through Business Program have been accomplishing—helping women in Afghanistan, Rwanda, and now Uganda rise as entrepreneurs, leaders, and community changemakers.
In the final episode of my three-part Peace Through Business podcast series, I was joined by Monica Smiley, president and founder of the Enterprising Women Foundation and publisher and CEO of Enterprising Women magazine. Monica, a long-time champion of women entrepreneurs worldwide, shared the remarkable journey of Dr. Neese, the founder of Peace Through Business, and how the Enterprising Women Foundation has joined forces to carry that mission forward.
A Vision Born from a Call to Action
The story began nearly twenty years ago when First Lady Laura Bush called Terry Neese with a bold request: travel with her to Afghanistan to help empower women through entrepreneurship. Despite her husband's warnings about the risks, Terry packed her bags and boarded a plane. What she witnessed changed her life.
Soon after, she founded the Peace Through Business Program under the IEEW banner—a leadership and entrepreneurship training initiative designed to equip women in post-conflict nations with the tools to rebuild their lives and their communities through business ownership.
Terry was no stranger to pioneering women's initiatives. She had co-founded Women Impacting Public Policy (WIPP), served as a president of NAWBO (National Association of Women Business Owners), and played a pivotal role in passing H.R. 5050, the landmark legislation often called the "Big Bang" of women's entrepreneurship by creating the National Women's Business Council, laying the groundwork for a network of Women's Business Centers across the nation, and changing archaic laws that kept women from getting credit in their own names. From her base in Oklahoma City, this native of Cookie Town, Oklahoma, went on to build a global movement rooted in one core belief: economic empowerment is the path to peace.
From Afghanistan to Rwanda: Courage in Action
What began as a training program for Afghan women quickly expanded. Within a year, Peace Through Business added Rwanda, a country rebuilding after the genocide that took more than 800,000 lives.
"In Rwanda," Monica shared, "women literally held up the sky after the genocide." Many were left as heads of households and community leaders. With support from Peace Through Business, these women learned to create sustainable enterprises that fueled their country's recovery. Rwanda is now one of the few nations in the world where women hold a majority in Parliament, a testament to their determination and leadership.
One unforgettable example is Chantal, a graduate of the program who turned a personal crisis into opportunity. After a car accident left her vehicle stranded abroad for repairs, she realized there were no local body shops. Determined to change that, she founded the first woman-owned auto repair business in Rwanda—and even created the National Garage Owners Association to help others follow her lead.
When Monica presented Chantal with the Enterprising Woman of the Year Award, both women were moved to tears. "She had lost over 200 family members during the genocide," Monica recalled. "It was the only time I've ever broken down during a speech. The resilience of these women is indescribable."
Adapting and Persevering Through Crisis
The fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban in 2021 brought enormous challenges. The program's Afghan director, Manizha, happened to be in the U.S. when the country collapsed. She immediately called her team, instructing them to destroy records to protect participants from reprisal. In the days that followed, Peace Through Business helped over 300 graduates escape the country while continuing to support those who remained.
Today, the Afghan program operates entirely online. The women meet virtually several times a week in a ten-week course covering business planning, marketing, finance, taxation, and leadership. Because many participants lack internet access, the program covers their connectivity costs. As Monica noted, "It's like a mini-MBA. The women are committed attendance is strict, there are assignments, tests, and business plans are developed."
Graduates then join the Peace Through Business Alumni Association, where they mentor other women and "pay it forward." The results have been extraordinary: alumnae have launched new ventures, expanded into export markets, and even entered politics as ministers and policymakers.
Watch our video on YouTube Here:
A Call to Action: Women Helping Women
Monica's message is clear—these programs depend on us. With cutbacks to international aid, nonprofit funding is tighter than ever, even as demand grows. "We had 124 Afghan women apply for 35 openings this year," she said. "The need is overwhelming."
Every dollar and every mentor counts. Mentors are matched virtually with entrepreneurs to share expertise and encouragement. Donations go directly toward training, internet access, and modest stipends for local program directors like Manizha and Chantal, who continue to risk so much for others.
Monica's organization, Enterprising Women Foundation, now hosts the Peace Through Business program, helping amplify its reach and celebrating its graduates at the annual Enterprising Women of the Year Awards. The partnership exemplifies how women lifting women can create ripple effects across continents—building stronger families, economies, and, ultimately, peace.
Building Peace, One Business at a Time
As I closed our conversation, I reflected on how deeply these women embody resilience and hope. Their stories remind us that peace is not simply the absence of conflict—it is the presence of opportunity.
When women gain access to education, mentorship, and entrepreneurship, they transform not only their own lives but the futures of entire communities. Programs like Peace Through Business show that empowering women economically is one of the most powerful peace strategies in the world.
The program is now operating in Canada and the United Kingdom. It is mostly serving immigrant women entrepreneurs from around the globe who have moved to those countries and need the Peace Through Business training. The Program is becoming truly global.
If you would like to support or mentor women through the Peace Through Business program, visit Enterprising Women Foundation at www.enterprisingwomenfoundation. Together, we can build peace—one woman, one business, and one community at a time.
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Books: Learn more about our books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
Peace Through Business: How Women in Rwanda and Afghanistan Are Rebuilding Nations Through Entrepreneurship In this special episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I continue our series spotlighting Peace Through Business, a remarkable program empowering women entrepreneurs in Afghanistan, Rwanda, and beyond. The stories are profound, the impact undeniable, and the lessons universal: when women rise, entire nations begin to heal and prosper.
As a corporate anthropologist and Blue Ocean Strategist, I want to remind us at the start:
“When you invest in a woman entrepreneur, you invest in her family, her community, and her country’s future.” This conversation brings together Monica Smiley, publisher of Enterprising Women Magazine; Chantal Munanayire, Peace Through Business Program Director for Rwanda, Uganda, Canada, and the UK; and Manisha Wafeq, who leads the Afghanistan initiative. Each share not only how the program works but how it transforms lives — economically, socially, and spiritually.
Creating Peace Through Business When Enterprising Women Foundation assumed stewardship of Peace Through Business in 2024, it became the natural extension of its mission to empower women globally.
Monica Smiley explains that Enterprising Women began 25 years ago as a publication to celebrate women entrepreneurs but soon evolved into a global movement. “About 12 years ago,” she recalls, “we launched the Enterprising Women Foundation to mentor girls in underserved communities across 30 U.S. cities. Then, by inheriting the Peace Through Business program, we broadened our mission — from helping American women entrepreneurs to supporting women rebuilding countries after conflict.”
Originally founded by Dr. Terry Neese at the request of former First Lady Laura Bush, the Peace Through Business program provides an intensive education in entrepreneurship, leadership, and civic responsibility. It began in Afghanistan, where women were often excluded from public life, and expanded into Rwanda, a country rebuilding its social and economic fabric after the 1994 genocide.
Monica remembers traveling to Rwanda in 2014 and again in 2018. “The transformation in just four years was stunning,” she says. “There were new hotels, a thriving convention center, and a new sense of hope. Women who once dreamed of a single business now run two or three. They are not waiting to be rescued — they are building the future themselves.”
Chantal’s Journey: From Survivor to Mentor Few embody that spirit more than Chantal Munanayire. A survivor of Rwanda’s genocide, Chantal rebuilt her life — and her country — one business at a time. In 2009, she broke barriers by opening the first woman-owned car repair and paint shop in Kigali, the capital city.
“When I began, I didn’t even know what a business plan was,” she says with a laugh. “I was passionate but directionless. Through Peace Through Business, I learned to plan, to lead, and to see my company as separate from myself. That gave me freedom — and power.”
Today, Chantal runs the program across several countries and has mentored hundreds of women. “The women who come to us are determined but often afraid,” she explains. “We teach them to turn that fear into focus. Once they succeed, they return to mentor others. That’s how we build a sisterhood.”
She shares stories of women who began as small vendors and now own supermarkets, or dairy farmers who built shopping centers. “When one woman thrives, she brings ten others along,” Chantal says. “That’s how you build a country.”
Education, Mentorship, and Advocacy Peace Through Business unfolds in three powerful stages:
- Education– Ten weeks of in-country classes covering marketing, finance, leadership, and business planning.
- Leadership Development– A cultural and professional exchange in the U.S., where top graduates attend the Enterprising Women Conference to meet mentors and global leaders.
- Pay It Forward– Graduates return home to mentor others, advocate for policy reform, and expand the reach of women in leadership.
As Manisha Wafeq explains, “This is not a one-week seminar. It’s a life-changing journey. Our women become educators, activists, and community builders. They learn that business is not only about profit — it’s about peace. And after they graduate, they pay their knowledge forward to other women and join our alumni association.”
A Call to Action: Supporting Women Who Change the World The episode closes with a powerful reflection from Monica and Andi: sustainable change requires participation. The program’s impact depends on mentorship, funding, and global awareness.
“This is a Blue Ocean in action,” says Andi Simon. “These women are not competing in crowded markets. They’re creating new ones — new industries, new opportunities, new futures.”
Monica adds, “We’ve given the Enterprising Women of the Year award to one Afghan and one Rwandan woman annually for nearly two decades. Seeing them stand on stage in front of hundreds of cheering peers brings me to tears every time. But we need more hands and hearts to keep the program thriving.”
Every contribution — financial or personal — helps sustain the work. Donations go directly to scholarships, training, and travel for participants. Mentors provide guidance and connection, bridging continents through compassion and shared purpose.
To learn more or contribute, visit EnterprisingWomenFoundation.org.
Why These Stories Matter For Andi Simon, this episode isn’t just another interview — it’s a reflection of what anthropology teaches us about change: that transformation begins when people reimagine what’s possible.
“Change happens,” Andi concludes, “when we stop waiting for permission and start creating possibilities. These women are doing exactly that. They’re rewriting the story of what it means to lead, to heal, and to build peace through business.”
Listen in to our YouTube Video:
When it comes to peacebuilding, business might not be the first answer that springs to mind.
But for almost two decades, the Peace Through Business program has proved empowering women entrepreneurs is one of the most effective ways to repair broken societies. This was the first webinar in a series of three aimed at introducing people to the program's roots in Afghanistan, the women whose lives were changed and how urgently this work needs continued support - and growth.
Watch our Interview Here.
From Vision to Reality The Peace Through Business program was started by Dr. Terry Neese nearly 20 years ago at the suggestion of First Lady Laura Bush. The aim was humble but audacious: to empower Afghan women to enter their country’s economic life, become business leaders and play a role in rebuilding a nation emerging from the darkness of Taliban rule.
The public-private aspect of this from the very beginning made it different. This autonomy enabled the program to be flexible, creative and genuinely responsive to women. It also espoused a philosophy of paying it forward — the graduates were urged to not only expand their own businesses, but also to be advocates for others and create policies that would lift up other women across Afghanistan.
Peace Through Business Program with Lasting Impact More than 900 Afghan women have been trained and mentored through Peace Through Business since 2007. These women are one of a kind trailblazers in every way. They have started Afghanistan’s first printing press owned by women, established women’s gyms to encourage health, ventured into logistics companies and forged a path into fields once thought inappropriate.
One alum alone, for instance, sold her jewelry to fund a dried fruit-exporter dream. With the support of the program, she developed a business plan, figured out how to negotiate with international buyers and eventually, became one of the country’s top exporters — until Taliban control prompted her to shut down operations. Today, she is building again, with resilience and strength.
Other graduates teamed up to form the country’s first Afghanistan Women’s Chamber of Commerce and Industry. This advocacy group turned into the Afghan Women’s Chamber of Commerce and Industry, which helped influence national trade policy, procurement laws and industrial land allocation processes — to ensure that women business owners were included in plans for the future.
These are not small wins. They embody seismic cultural changes in a country where women were once banished from public life.
Persevering Amid Crisis This whole success story was upended on August 15, 2021, when the Taliban reconquered Afghanistan. Decades of advances for women were rolled back in a single day.
Gender Apartheid
Since then, more than 130 decrees have curtailed women’s rights, whatever those might be to a Muslim cleric in this type of Islamic state.
But the women of Peace Through Business aren’t ready to quit. Many are now operating home-based businesses, needing little more than a smart phone to connect with trainers and mentors. Former college professors, nonprofit workers and government employees — now unable to practice their professions — are remaking themselves as entrepreneurs. Their steadfastness to create livelihoods for themselves and others is an act of resistance and hope.
Training That Changes Lives At its essence, Peace Through Business is more than a workshop or a certificate program. It’s a meticulously planned learning trajectory. The participants acquire practical business skills — from writing business plans, to marketing and export. They are matched with mentors, often through virtual “e-mentoring,” enabling supporters from across the world to walk alongside them in their growth.
Above all graduates take with them more than knowledge. They come away with a sisterhood —women committed to lifting one another. It’s this network that supports them through hard times and drives the ripple effect of change in their community.
Why Now Matters--Why You Matter More Than Ever This year, more than 120 Afghan women applied for just 35 slots in the program. Demand is exponentially greater than supply at present. In a world where Afghanistan is fading from the headlines, never has the help been needed more.
“There is no other program that rivals it,” Monica Smiley, publisher of Enterprising Women and president of the Enterprising Women Foundation said in a webinar, “No matter where you are or what your career is … if you really want to make a difference in this world — significant difference — I can’t think of a better example than the Peace Through Business program.”
How You Can Help Afghan women are not seeking charity, they are asking for opportunity. And we can help provide it. With a contribution, you are providing support for training programs, mentoring and small grants that enable women to begin or rebuild businesses. When you volunteer as a mentor, you’re sharing your experience, reinforcing courage and sounding a voice for the cause.
Every donation or hour of volunteers time offers a lifeline to women who refuse to be silenced, women who are making jobs happen and changing policy plus in spite of impossible odds keeping hope alive.
Join Us Learn more, donate or volunteer as a mentor at Enterprising Women Foundation. Together we can make sure that the voices and visions of Afghan women entrepreneurs are not just heard, but magnified.
For when women succeed, communities succeed. And when peace is constructed through business it happens to be lasting.
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Alan Gregerman, an internationally recognized authority on business strategy, innovation, and the hidden potential within all of us. Known as the “Robin Williams of Business Consulting,” Alan brings humor, humanity, and deep insight into how we can adapt, grow, and innovate in a world changing faster than ever before.
I couldn't wait to share this podcast with you! My friend and innovation mentor, Alan Gregerman, joined me on On the Brink with Andi Simon for a stimulating conversation that digs into the interesting challenges facing all those who want to find their own best way of innovating. The "Robin Williams of Business Consulting," Alan injects humor, humanity, and leading-edge thinking into the brutal truth about how we need to adapt, change & innovate so now we win in a world changing faster than ever.
Alan's latest book, "The Wisdom of Ignorance: Why Not Knowing Can Be a Catalyst for Innovation in an Uncertain World," reminds us that our lack of knowledge can be the source of the greatest discovery. During our conversation, we discussed his unique personal journey, his desire to help others reinvent themselves, and the most critical skills for all of us to cultivate to succeed in a world of disruptions.
Curiosity Begins Early Alan revealed that his interest in other cultures began in early life. His mother, a specialist in world history, and one cherished gift — an atlas — prompted him never to stop learning and exploring. That early sense of curiosity would eventually form the basis of his career: to help businesses and individuals look beyond what they know, he tells them, to find new ideas in unexpected places.
This investigative spirit has characterized his writing, from Lessons from the Sandbox (about reclaiming the creativity of childhood) to Surrounded by Geniuses (on how ordinary people and ideas can spur innovation) to The Necessity of Strangers (for why we must connect with people unlike ourselves). Now, with The Wisdom of Ignorance, he contends that expertise is not sufficient: we must develop the courage to say "I don't know" and use that humility to drive our future expos.
Why Adults Resist Change A common refrain in our conversations was how hard it is to make a change. Alan reminded us that whereas 10% of people are quick to embrace new concepts, and another 10% resist vigorously, the rest of us tend to be somewhere in between. This resistance is not only cultural — it's neurological. Because our brains are wired to conserve energy, they will always prefer established habits over new things to learn.
It's why Alan emphasized that innovation frequently demands creating small, quantifiable experiments. We can try ideas out incrementally rather than insisting on wholesale change overnight. These experiments help build confidence, reduce fear, and allow us to adjust more organically to the world as it changes.
Watch our video of our podcast on YouTube.
Wisdom of Ignorance Alan's methodology is based on what he dubs the six fundamental skills for flourishing in uncertain times. Central to them is purpose. Without something transformative and exciting enough to wake up for, innovation merely wanders around aimlessly. Clarity of purpose, whether it's in a for-profit or not-for-profit organization, is what leads to curiosity and experimentation, which begets growth.
"When I speak with people at non-profits, one of the common themes you'll hear is a greater sense of purpose than businesses," Alan says that both sectors need to revisit and sharpen their "why constantly." "Best is a space that's kind of a moving target," as he put it. What works today is no guarantee of relevance tomorrow, and without purpose, even the greatest idea can lose its impact.
The Six Essential Capabilities of an Innovative Organization Alan boiled it down to six related skills - all of which are the building blocks of his book and consulting practice:
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Purposefulness – Commit to something worth doing that is meaningful.
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Curiosity – Ask for inspiration and you will find it, remembering that behind most great ideas is the thinking of others.
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Humility – Acknowledge we don't have all the answers, discovery starts with an open mind.
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Respect – Respect everybody and everything, they are coming from somewhere unexpected.
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Focus Forward – Peer into the future with a focus on newer trends, cultures, and ideas.
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Paranoia: Stay aware of the fact that competitors and threats are always on your heels.
These habits together prompt us to adopt what Santayana gleefully termed "enlightened ignorance" — a stance that appreciates not knowing as yet as the beginning rather than the end of knowledge.
Lessons for Leaders As an anthropologist, Alan's take felt eerily familiar. We both believe that growth is often staring organizations in the face, disguised in plain sight — if only they can look beyond their routines and assumptions. Leaders need to push teams out of their comfort zones, provoke new ways of thinking, and acknowledge progress along the journey.
Alan cautioned us that our customers aren't loyal because they're devoted to us — they stay with us because switching to another provider seems more complex. But they'll leave as soon as something better comes along. Innovation, therefore, isn't optional. It's survival.
Human-Centered Change All this talk of disruption nowadays is mainly centered on technology — and current trend words like AI, Bitcoin, blockchain, or the Fourth Industrial Revolution — but Alan warned us to remember that much more critical forms of change are human and social. From changing values across generations to increasing loneliness and shifting work habits post-COVID, leaders need to pay attention to the people side of transformation.
He urges us to reach out to strangers, listen more closely, and pay attention to the subtle signs of change that are all around us. In it, we can transform ignorance into discovery and shape futures that count.
A Final Thought Alan's lesson is that you don't have to have all the answers in your mind to do something remarkable. All you need is a sense of purpose, curiosity, humility, respect for others, and a focus on the future — together with just enough paranoia to keep you from being complacent. Most of all, you need to warm up to the wisdom that eighth graders get every single day going into high school: not knowing.
For, as these people remind us: "We all actually do have the ability to make a difference. It's something we can attain if we engage in a few crucial behaviors each day."
His new book, The Wisdom of Ignorance, was published on October 14 and is available wherever fine books are sold.
Key Takeaways: • Lean into what you don't know — that's where the wonder is, and that's where you'll feel becoming.
• Purpose orients; small experiments build confidence.
• Remain curious, humble, respectful of norms and traditions while remaining future-oriented, and a bit paranoid.
• The human and social change is at least as important as the technological disruption.
• Each and every one can make a difference one step at a time.
Connect with Alan: Alan’s Profile: linkedin.com/in/alan-gregerman-a33b236 Website: alangregerman.com/ (Personal Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
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In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Laurie Hirsch Schulz, a transformational coach, nonprofit leader, and founder of LHS Coaching. Laurie’s career journey—from over two decades in corporate marketing at Kraft Foods and Visa to becoming a trusted coach and community leader—offers a powerful reminder that change is not something to resist but to embrace.
Laurie brings to her clients a unique blend of corporate savvy, coaching expertise, and a deep passion for helping people find clarity when they reach what she calls inflection points. These are moments when life nudges—or pushes—you to recognize that what once worked no longer does. Whether it’s career dissatisfaction, a health scare, a layoff, or simply the realization that you’re ready for something new, inflection points are opportunities to redefine what comes next.
From Corporate Success to Coaching Purpose Laurie enjoyed a successful career at Kraft Foods and Visa, thriving in marketing and strategy roles. But after more than 20 years, she hit her own inflection point: the work no longer aligned with her values. Rather than pushing through, she took a bold step. She negotiated an exit plan, gave herself what she called a “reboot year,” and invested in coaching and reflection.
That pause was pivotal. Laurie discovered that what she loved most wasn’t just the marketing itself, but the mentoring, coaching, and team-building along the way. Out of that realization grew her coaching practice, where she now helps others navigate the complexity of transition.
The Power of a Personal Compass Laurie’s process begins with what she calls a personal compass. This is more than a vision statement—it’s a grounding framework built around four key elements:
- Core Values – The non-negotiables that must guide decisions and actions.
- Mission – How you want to impact the world and show up in it.
- Energies – The activities, relationships, and pursuits that light you up.
- Capabilities – The skills and strengths that differentiate you, not just what you can do, but what you want to do.
This compass serves as a touchstone, allowing clients to navigate life and career changes with greater clarity and confidence. It becomes especially powerful during times of uncertainty, when the “shoulds” of culture or family expectations may cloud what truly matters.
Experimentation and the Permission to Change Clarity, however, is not enough. Laurie stresses the importance of experimentation—testing possibilities in small, manageable ways. That might mean scheduling coffee conversations with people in new fields, volunteering in a nonprofit role, or taking on stretch projects at work. These experiments open doors to new opportunities and perspectives while reducing the fear of change.
And this is where Laurie offers something many of us forget: permission to change. So often, we keep doing what we’ve always done—even when it makes us unhappy—because it feels safe or because others have boxed us in. Laurie helps clients give themselves the grace and courage to step through new doors, even if what’s on the other side looks different than expected.
Coaching as a Gift to Yourself Laurie distinguishes coaching from therapy or consulting. Therapy often looks backward; consulting provides external solutions. Coaching, in contrast, is about partnering with clients to ask the right questions, surface insights, and guide them forward. It is future-focused, client-led, and deeply transformative.
As Laurie puts it, coaching is a gift—a purposeful pause that helps you reconnect with who you are, gain confidence in your strengths, and create a future aligned with your values.
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Key Takeaways 1. Listen to the inner voice. When something no longer feels right, don’t ignore it. Inflection points are signs it’s time for change. 2. Define your personal compass. Ground yourself in your values, mission, energy sources, and unique capabilities. 3. Challenge the “shoulds.” Cultural and personal expectations can limit growth; real transformation begins by questioning them. 4. Experiment your way forward. Try new roles, conversations, or volunteer work to clarify what resonates before making big leaps. 5. Give yourself permission. You don’t need to stay stuck in a box. Change is not failure—it’s an act of self-leadership. 6. Coaching is an investment. Partnering with a coach can help you pause, reflect, and move forward with confidence and clarity.
Laurie’s story is a reminder that change, while uncomfortable, is often the catalyst for growth and transformation. We may not always know what’s on the other side of the door, but with clarity, experimentation, and courage, we can step through and discover new ways of living and working that truly align with who we are.
To learn more about Laurie Hirsch Schulz and her coaching practice, or to connect with her for a complimentary introductory session, visit her at LHS Coaching or find her on LinkedIn.
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
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In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, Dr. Andi Simon welcomes a remarkable young entrepreneur, Sana Ali, whose story is as surprising as it is inspiring. Just twelve years old, Sana has already built a reputation as a digital strategist helping coaches, consultants, and creators transform their online engagement into real business results. Her journey from Karachi, Pakistan, to an international podcast platform is a testament to curiosity, resilience, and the entrepreneurial spirit.
A Journey Sparked by Curiosity and Encouragement Sana’s story began in 2023, when she was only ten years old. With encouragement from her mother, she shifted her time away from passive entertainment toward learning coding and building websites. Very quickly, she not only mastered skills far beyond her years but began to attract attention from adults—some twice or three times her age—who turned to her for guidance. This early success underscored a truth that continues to shape her path: ambition and focus are not limited by age.
Her initial LinkedIn presence grew rapidly, amassing thousands of followers. But because she was underage, the platform eventually banned her account. Instead of giving up, Sana started again, this time with a clearer vision. Rather than focusing only on coding, she saw an opportunity to address a widespread challenge: many professionals were generating likes, comments, and followers on LinkedIn, yet struggling to convert that visibility into paying clients. Sana stepped into this gap with a simple but powerful insight—engagement is nice, but clients are better.
Sana Ali is Building a New Model on LinkedIn With her fresh approach, Sana began optimizing LinkedIn funnels. She mapped out the journey from a cold prospect to a high-ticket client, showing coaches and consultants how to stop chasing vanity metrics and start building sustainable revenue. One of her earliest breakthroughs came when a skeptical prospect realized that, despite thousands of followers, they were making no money. Sana provided strategic adjustments and, to their surprise, turned the engagement into paying clients. That success story became the first of many case studies demonstrating the effectiveness of her methods.
In conversation with Andi, Sana explained how the tactics of outreach have shifted over the years. Cold pitches and generic compliments that may have worked in 2015 no longer resonate in 2025. Instead, the new “currency” is trust. Building trust requires empathy, genuine compliments, thoughtful questions, and adding value without immediately pushing for a sale. For Sana, this approach is not theoretical—it is the lived experience of someone whose age initially raised doubts, yet whose results quickly silenced them.
The Core of Her Success: Trust and Empathy Throughout the discussion, Sana emphasized that trust is the foundation of client relationships today. Prospects are savvy, often wary of sales pitches, and increasingly skeptical about whether they are interacting with a real human or an AI bot. Sana has mastered the art of demonstrating authenticity—through personalized conversations, empathy for her clients’ situations, and valuable insights freely given before any sales conversation.
One example she shared involved a client who joined a call while ill. Instead of pressing forward, Sana suggested rescheduling, showing genuine care for the individual. That small act of empathy built immediate trust, leading to a long-term client relationship. Stories like these highlight her maturity, compassion, and business acumen far beyond her years.
Lessons for Entrepreneurs of All Ages The episode closes with reflections on Sana’s journey and her advice for young entrepreneurs: age should never be seen as a limitation. Whether learning coding at ten or advising adults on LinkedIn strategy by twelve, she has proven that commitment and ambition can accelerate success at any stage of life. For her, the choice to spend time building a business rather than playing video games has opened doors to opportunities she once could not have imagined.
For listeners of On the Brink, this episode is more than an inspiring story—it is a reminder of how quickly the business landscape is changing, and how younger generations are not just adapting but leading. Sana Ali embodies the entrepreneurial mindset: seeing opportunities, embracing change, and building trust in a world where trust itself has become the most valuable commodity.
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Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Andi Simon PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Selling has always been at the heart of business growth—but how we sell, who sells, and what customers expect has changed dramatically. On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I spoke with Tsahala David, CEO of Great Revenue, a sales consulting firm that helps B2B software companies grow smarter and faster. With an extraordinary background—MIT MBA, tech founder, and sales leadership roles at IBM and Salesforce—Tsahala has seen sales from every angle. Her story and insights reveal not just how to grow revenue but how to thrive in a new era of sales transformation
From Startup Founder to Sales Leader
Tshala’s journey began in Israel, where she completed military service and studied psychology before shifting into computer science. After founding her own tech company in her twenties, she confronted an early challenge many entrepreneurs face: defining her role. At first reluctant to call herself “CEO,” she quickly realized that imposter syndrome had to be shed—because if you’re running the business, you are the CEO
That early startup experience gave her first-hand knowledge of the uphill battle founders face in selling products, building teams, and convincing investors. Seeking more tools, she went to MIT for her MBA, then built a 20-year career in sales at global giants like IBM and Salesforce, closing multi-million-dollar deals with clients like Wells Fargo and Cisco.
At Salesforce, she learned what she calls the “power of sparkle”—the way a company can attract talent, customers, and attention by combining strategy with personality and brand charisma. These lessons now fuel her work at Great Revenue, where she helps companies align their sales strategies with today’s market realities.
Common Mistakes in Startup Sales
One of Tsahala’s most valuable contributions is diagnosing the mistakes founders and sales leaders make at different growth stages.
- Early-stage startups often believe that signing a few reseller “partners” means they have a sales team. But, as Tshala warns, relying on partners who only earn commission when they sell means sales rarely happen. The real cost isn’t money—it’s lost time, and in startups, six months of delay can kill your competitive advantage
- Later-stage companies often get compensation plans wrong. She shared a case where salespeople were paid less for online orders than phone orders. Predictably, reps discouraged online buying and insisted clients call them—hurting profitability and wasting resources. The lesson? Follow the money. Salespeople respond to incentives, so design compensation plans with the outcomes you want
- Sales management is another weak spot. Too often, managers don’t require reps to prepare for pipeline meetings. Tshala recommends using simple forms that force reps to answer key questions—deal size, decision makers, last contact, close date. This not only helps managers track progress but also helps sellers spot gaps in their deals
The Role of AI in Sales
Naturally, our conversation turned to AI in sales. Tsahala sees tools like ChatGPT as game-changers for research and preparation. Instead of spending hours digging through reports, salespeople can instantly access a company’s strategy, leadership, and metrics.
But there’s a catch: weak sellers often use AI as a crutch, staying at a generic level. Strong sellers know to go deeper, asking sharper questions and tailoring insights to the customer’s specific needs. AI, Tshala argues, empowers strong sellers but won’t rescue weak ones
The future belongs to those who combine technology with human curiosity, empathy, and problem-solving.
Shifts in Buyer Behavior
Another theme we explored was the dramatic shift in how buyers engage with sellers. Older generations may remember sitting across the table until a contract was signed. But today’s buyers often don’t work in offices, don’t answer phones, and rely on digital channels to research solutions.
Events are no longer centralized; instead, buyers connect through fragmented online communities—from LinkedIn groups to Discord servers. That means marketing now owns much of the top of the funnel, while sales must focus on converting leads and building trust. Sellers today must immerse themselves in buyers’ digital worlds, positioning themselves not just as vendors but as collaborators in problem-solving
Key Takeaways for Sales Leaders
As we wrapped up our conversation, Tsahala emphasized that sales is a profession, not a side hustle. Everyone thinks they know how to sell—after all, we’ve all sold something, even if just a used car or lemonade stand. But true sales success requires expertise, structure, and strategy.
Here are her top three lessons for sales leaders and entrepreneurs:
- Don’t go it alone. Sales consulting isn’t optional—it’s an investment in avoiding costly mistakes.
- Design incentives wisely. Compensation plans drive behavior. Align them with your business goals.
- Embrace change. Buyer behavior, sales roles, and technology are evolving. Those who adapt will thrive
Why This Matters Now
We are living through a great transformation in sales. Marketing and sales are no longer siloed; collaboration is essential. AI accelerates preparation but cannot replace human insight. And customer expectations continue to evolve.
For CEOs, founders, and sales leaders, Tsahala David’s message is clear: if you want revenue growth, you must rethink your approach to sales. Invest in your people, design smart processes, and leverage technology thoughtfully.
Sales isn’t just about closing deals anymore—it’s about creating value, building trust, and collaborating with buyers in ways that meet them where they are.
Watch our interview on YouTube
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let’s Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
When opportunity knocks, sometimes it comes in the most unexpected ways—like someone breaking into your home to steal a salad dressing. That’s the unlikely spark that launched Gregory Vetter’s entrepreneurial journey, one that would forever change the way Americans think about clean eating.
On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, Gregory shares his remarkable story: how he turned his mother’s homemade salad dressing into Tessemae’s, the nation’s #1 organic refrigerated salad dressing brand. His story is more than a business tale—it’s a lesson in resilience, innovation, and redefining the American Dream.
From a Missing Salad Dressing to a National Brand Gregory’s journey began in the humblest way. A friend—who didn’t even like salad—confessed to stealing Gregory’s mother’s homemade dressing. That was the “aha” moment. If the product was so irresistible it could inspire theft, perhaps it was good enough to sell.
Armed only with conviction and cold-calling skills, Gregory approached local grocery stores. With no packaging, no brand, and no experience, he brought samples in Tupperware. The response was immediate: “This is the best salad dressing I’ve ever had.” That first yes opened the door to a 15-year journey that saw Tessemae’s become a pioneer in the clean food movement—introducing gum-free dressing, Whole30-approved products, and a national reputation for innovation.
Scaling Dreams and Facing Hard Truths But entrepreneurship is rarely a straight line. As Gregory candidly shares, success brought challenges: supply chain crises, investor pressures, and hostile takeover attempts. What began as a family dream turned into a battle of lawyers, negotiations, and financial strain. Eventually, the company was handed to private equity for pennies on the dollar.
For many, this might have felt like a nightmare ending. But Gregory reframed it: “Leadership comes down to leading by example and leaving things better than you found them.”
Redefining the American Dream That reframing became the core of Gregory’s bestselling book, Undressed: The Unfiltered Story of My Failed American Dream and How It Led to Success. In it, he unpacks the lessons of failure—how losing what you built can actually unlock clarity, resilience, and a more grounded understanding of success.
Today, Gregory leads Homegrown Brand Accelerator, helping emerging entrepreneurs avoid the pitfalls he faced. From produce businesses with zero food waste to launching Mexico’s largest avocado oil brand in the U.S., his playbook is now a blueprint for others.
Building Businesses with Purpose Gregory’s work now emphasizes something far beyond profits: purpose. His ventures align with values like sustainability, clean food, and personal well-being. He also hosts retreats designed to help leaders find their most “optimal state”—balancing time, health, family, and purpose.
He reminds us that money can’t buy four essential things: your time, your soul, your health, and your children’s love. For him, these are the real pillars of success.
Lessons for Entrepreneurs and Leaders Gregory’s story is full of takeaways for anyone navigating entrepreneurship or leadership:
- Ignorance can be fuel. Sometimes not knowing the rules lets you break them creatively.
- Conviction matters. Believing in your idea—before anyone else does—is often the hardest step.
- Protect your dream. Be cautious with investors; alignment of values is as important as funding.
- Failure is a teacher. Reframing setbacks can lead to stronger, wiser ventures.
- Purpose outlasts profit. Businesses built on doing good create lasting impact.
As Gregory puts it, quoting JFK: “The ancient Greek definition of happiness was the full use of your powers along lines of excellence.” When work aligns with purpose, excellence follows.
Listen In or Watch on Youtube. This conversation is for anyone who’s ever wondered how to turn an idea into reality, or how to rebuild after dreams don’t go as planned. Gregory’s story is proof that even when things don’t end the way you imagined, they can still lead to something greater.
Discover how you can turn your observations into innovations—just like Gregory Vetter.
You might enjoy listening to these podcasts about similar topics at https://www.simonassociates.net/category/podcast/ Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
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In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sit down with Dr. Philip A. Glotzbach, former President of Skidmore College, philosopher, and passionate advocate for the liberal arts, to talk about how students can get the most out of their college experience — and why it’s about far more than getting a job. His latest book, Embrace Your Freedom: Winning Strategies to Succeed in College and in Life, is both a practical guide and a philosophical invitation to use higher education as a launchpad for a meaningful life. His message: Embrace freedom. Your college years are a time to be curious, explore ideas, build relationships, and learn to love freedom.
A Life in Education and Leadership Dr. Glotzbach’s journey began at the University of Notre Dame, where he discovered a love for philosophy, and continued at Yale University, where he earned his Ph.D. and fell in love with teaching. After 15 years as a philosophy professor at Denison University, he moved into administration, eventually becoming President of Skidmore College for 17 years. Throughout his career, one question has guided him: What can we do to give students the best chance at a meaningful life?
The answer, for him, blends intellectual development, personal responsibility, and civic engagement — themes woven into his convocation talks to new students, which eventually became the foundation for Embrace Your Freedom.
Why College Is a One-Time Opportunity to Embrace Freedom College, Dr. Glotzbach says, is a singular moment in life — “you get one shot at being an undergraduate.” It’s a time for “test-driving your adult self,” exploring big questions, and deciding what kind of person you want to be, as well as what kind of world you want to help create.
Too often, students see college only as a steppingstone to employment. While preparing for a career matters, narrowing your focus too early shortens the shelf life of your skills. Today’s graduates will likely change not just jobs but entire careers multiple times. The broader your education, the better equipped you’ll be to adapt to an unpredictable future.
Watch our podcast on YouTube here: From Negative Freedom to Positive Freedom One of the book’s central ideas is the shift from “negative freedom” — the absence of external constraints — to “positive freedom,” which is about deciding what you will do with that freedom. Positive freedom requires embracing structure and responsibility to pursue meaningful goals.
Dr. Glotzbach compares it to training for a marathon: you give up certain freedoms (like sleeping late) in exchange for the discipline that makes your goal achievable. In college, that means setting intentional objectives — for your courses, your extracurriculars, your relationships — and committing fully to them.
Begin Now — And Begin Again If there’s one mantra Dr. Glotzbach wants every student to remember, it’s Begin now. Your college career doesn’t start “later” — it starts the moment you arrive on campus. Don’t wait for the second semester or sophomore year to get serious.
That doesn’t mean you won’t face setbacks. Everyone stumbles. The key is to begin again — to get back up, recommit, and move forward. “The most important thing is not how many times you get knocked down,” he says, quoting Vince Lombardi, “but how many times you get back up.”
The Liberal Arts Advantage for Embracing Freedom As a philosopher and liberal arts leader, Dr. Glotzbach believes deeply in the value of studying broadly. Liberal arts disciplines develop critical thinking, ethical reasoning, and the ability to synthesize perspectives — skills essential for solving the “wicked problems” of our time.
One of his favorite quotes, from Horace Mann, is a call to action: “Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity.” For Dr. Glotzbach, college is a privilege held by a small percentage of the global population, and with that privilege comes a responsibility to contribute to the greater good.
Relationships Over Transactions Dr. Glotzbach warns against treating college as an “educational ATM,” where you deposit tuition and withdraw a diploma. That transactional mindset robs you of the deeper value of the experience. College is about relationships — with people, with ideas, and with the skills you are developing.
Friendships formed during college often become lifelong connections. These relationships — your first as an independent adult — are a key part of the transformation that happens during these years.
Learning in the Age of AI Today’s students must also navigate the opportunities and challenges of new technologies, including AI. While AI can be a powerful tool, relying on it too heavily during your studies can short-circuit the development of critical thinking and analytical skills. Dr. Glotzbach stresses the importance of reading and thinking critically — whether the material was written by a human 200 years ago or generated by AI yesterday.
Advice for Students and Parents For students: approach college as a unique opportunity for growth. Be open to new ideas, seek out mentors, engage in campus life, and treat every class, project, and relationship as a chance to find meaning.
For parents: remember that your child’s education is not only about employment prospects but also about becoming a thoughtful, engaged, and adaptable human being.
Get the Book Embrace Your Freedom: Winning Strategies to Succeed in College and in Life is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Target, and other major booksellers, as well as through Dr. Glotzbach’s website: www.philipglotzbach.com.
Whether you’re a student, parent, educator, or simply someone who values lifelong learning, this book offers a thoughtful, inspiring, and practical guide to making the most of one of life’s most important chapters.
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
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I could not decide on the right title for this podcast. Here was an alternate now: "Living, Looking, and Feeling Your Best: Nate Scott on Creating Lasting Wealth and Purpose." Nate Scott is a man whose journey from small-town Georgia to combat veteran, West Point graduate, entrepreneur, and executive coach is nothing short of inspiring. Nate’s story is one of intentional living, resilience, and a commitment to helping others look, feel, and live the way they truly desire.
From the Battlefield to West Point Nate’s early dream was to play college basketball, but when that opportunity fell through, he enlisted in the U.S. Army. His life took a dramatic turn during Operation Desert Storm, where at just 19 years old, he made a vow: if he returned home, he would never waste a day of his life. That moment shaped his future, instilling a deep sense of purpose and urgency.
While stationed in Germany, Nate was encouraged to apply to West Point — an idea he initially resisted. Yet in 1992, after careful consideration, he decided to attend, graduating with degrees in engineering, computer science, and sociology, and serving as a regimental commander among 4,000 cadets.
Discovering the Power of Personal Development Just as pivotal as his West Point education was Nate’s introduction to personal growth and entrepreneurship. A chance invitation to a network marketing meeting opened his eyes to the value of continuous learning, surrounding oneself with successful people, and taking control of one’s financial destiny.
An Entrepreneur’s Path Nate’s career path was anything but linear. He became a personal trainer, then applied the principles of fitness to business, personal finance, and leadership. He earned his MBA from George Washington University and gained experience as a CFO of a rapidly growing tech company. Along the way, he built a real estate portfolio that led to his first million by age 32.
But Nate also faced significant challenges — market downturns, business closures, and personal setbacks. These experiences deepened his understanding of financial vulnerability and the importance of preparation, adaptability, and mindset.
Life Is Rich: Addressing the Cash Flow Challenge Today, Nate is the author of Life Is Rich: How to Create Lasting Wealth, a book that serves as both curriculum and coaching foundation. His mission is clear: help people — especially women, who often outlive men and face unique financial pressures — address the very real cash flow dangers that threaten their future security.
Nate stresses that finances are 80% behavior and only 20% knowledge. The two largest expenses most people face are taxes and ignorance. By teaching “how to think, not what to think,” he guides clients toward creating sustainable cash flow through entrepreneurship, strategic tax planning, and purposeful living.
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The Habit Factor Central to Nate’s philosophy is the power of habits. As he explains, habits can either drive you toward your goals or pull you away from them — and they work with machine-like precision whether they serve you or not. Changing habits requires intentionality, discipline, and a clear vision of the life you want to live.
One of Nate’s most powerful coaching questions is: How do you want to look, feel, and live in the last ten years of your life? This future-focused visioning helps clients break free from autopilot living and start making daily choices that align with their desired future.
From Individuals to Organizations While Nate works one-on-one with clients, he also coaches teams and organizations. His focus remains on the individual as the asset — helping people align their personal goals with professional success. His “alignment before assignment” mantra ensures that purpose drives action, not the other way around.
Final Takeaways Nate leaves listeners with these key points:
- Alignment before assignment — Know your values and goals before taking on commitments.
- You are the asset — Invest in yourself first.
- Focus on how to think, not what to think — Empower yourself to make better decisions.
For Nate, life is rich when you have the cash flow, health, purpose, and time freedom to live it fully. His work helps people get there — with a clear plan, disciplined habits, and a vision worth pursuing.
You can learn more about Nate Scott and get Life Is Rich directly at lifeisrichbook.com, where purchasing from him includes access to bonus audio content and a complimentary session.
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sat down with Delia Passi, a three-time exited entrepreneur, women’s health advocate, and the founder and CEO of MyCabinet — a groundbreaking virtual medicine cabinet that’s changing how families and caregivers manage medications.
Delia’s story isn’t just about building a successful business. It’s about transforming a deeply personal, life-threatening moment into a purpose-driven company that blends healthcare innovation with impact entrepreneurship.
The Crisis That Sparked a Movement
Delia’s journey into healthcare technology began when her elderly mother suffered a massive heart attack while Delia was 200 miles away. In the chaos of the moment, doctors urgently needed her mother’s medical history — current medications, allergies, and past adverse reactions — but Delia didn’t have the information.
The result was sheer terror and helplessness. “I thought I was going to kill my mother,” she recalls. That moment became a catalyst for change. Delia made a promise to God: if her mother survived, she would dedicate herself to ensuring no one else endured such a situation again.
That promise became MyCabinet, a smart, virtual medicine cabinet designed to securely store, organize, and share critical medication information instantly with caregivers, healthcare providers, and family members.
A Track Record of Impact
Before founding MyCabinet, Delia had already made waves as the publisher of Working Mother magazine, where she championed family-friendly workplace policies and launched the “100 Best Companies for Working Mothers” list.
After battling breast cancer herself, she founded WomenCertified, Inc., home of the Women’s Choice Award, which helps women make informed healthcare decisions and sets rigorous standards for hospitals and providers. While proud of that work, Delia says she didn’t initially view it as “purpose-driven” — it was doing good, yes, but not with the intentional integration of purpose into every business decision.
MyCabinet, however, was different from the start.
Building a Purpose-Driven Company
Determined to align her entrepreneurial skills with a deeper mission, Delia joined Amplify, a nine-month program from the National Christian Foundation that taught her how to embed purpose into every aspect of a company. She now applies that framework to MyCabinet through four pillars:
- Employees – Hosting quarterly retreats with space for reflection, gratitude, and shared values, fostering a culture where faith and respect thrive across religious backgrounds.
- Investors – Choosing only impact investors who put people before profit and share the company’s mission.
- Clients – Taking a holistic approach to helping healthcare partners and institutions improve patient lives, not just offering a product.
- Customers – Delivering peace of mind for caregivers and patients by preventing dangerous medication errors and improving health outcomes.
Blue Ocean Thinking: Creating a New Market
As I often share with my clients, Blue Ocean Strategy is about creating a market space where none existed before — and MyCabinet is a perfect example. There was no “smart medicine cabinet” category before Delia created it. Like the leap from standard TVs to smart TVs, MyCabinet transforms a familiar object into a connected, intelligent solution.
Originally, Delia planned to sell direct-to-consumer (B2C), but quickly pivoted to a B2B2C model, partnering with large health plans, school systems, and other organizations that could deliver her product to hundreds of thousands of users at once. This strategic shift saved millions in marketing costs and accelerated adoption.
Lessons for Entrepreneurs
Delia’s story offers powerful lessons for anyone building a purpose-driven business:
- Get out of your comfort zone. For Delia, that meant reaching out to politicians and leaders she didn’t know, which opened unexpected doors in sectors like foster care, prison healthcare, and schools.
- Surround yourself with the right people. Seek advisors, investors, and partners who challenge you, support your vision, and keep your mission intact.
- Be prepared for the unseen. Women founders often face additional hurdles raising capital. Delia chose to navigate those challenges without compromising her values or taking on partners who didn’t align with her mission.
- Focus on unmet needs, not just your product. MyCabinet succeeds because it solves a real, often hidden problem — the lack of accessible, accurate medication information in critical moments.
Why This Matters
In an era where healthcare technology is evolving rapidly, MyCabinet stands out as both a life-saving innovation and a model for how businesses can integrate purpose, profit, and impact. It’s not just about managing medications — it’s about protecting lives, reducing caregiver stress, and empowering families with information when they need it most.
As Delia puts it, “You can build a unicorn and still be an active, purpose-driven organization.” Her journey proves that the bottom line and higher calling don’t have to be at odds.
Call to Action: To learn more about Delia Passi and MyCabinet, visit mycabinet.com. And to hear the full conversation, listen to this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon — where we explore how personal experiences can inspire innovations that change lives.
Listen to other podcasts about people building purpose-driven companies where profit aligns with meaning.
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the immense pleasure of speaking with Jessica Fairchild—an extraordinary lawyer, entrepreneur, and advocate for a new kind of workplace culture. Jessica's story is one of continual reinvention, courageous pivots, and an unwavering commitment to values-driven leadership.
Jessica is the co-founder and partner at Fairchild and Bair, a Chicago-based law firm built on flexibility, trust, and purpose. As you’ll hear in our conversation, her 25-year legal career has not followed a traditional path. And that’s exactly what makes her story so compelling.
From Accounting Major to M&A Trailblazer Jessica didn’t grow up dreaming of being a lawyer. In fact, she studied accounting in college and only considered law school after enjoying a business law class. With no attorneys in her immediate family, this leap was both unexpected and bold. But as she puts it, “I followed my gut.”
After cutting her teeth in a large Chicago law firm, she took a big risk—leaving to become general counsel for Chicago’s Olympic bid. That three-year detour turned out to be a pivotal moment in her journey. The experience showed her how law could intersect with leadership, creativity, and impact. It also sparked her entrepreneurial spirit.
Building a Firm with Flexibility at Its Core Jessica founded her own firm in 2010, without a business plan but with a clear sense of purpose: to build a law practice where she—and others—could bring their authentic selves to work. In 2019, that mission expanded with the merger that formed Fairchild and Bair, alongside like-minded partners. Today, the firm boasts nearly 100 lawyers and a business model that reflects the realities and values of a new generation.
What sets Jessica’s approach apart? It’s the deliberate culture of flexibility and inclusion. Whether accommodating a lawyer working remotely from Madrid or welcoming professionals who’ve stepped away from the workforce, the firm embraces nonlinear career paths. “We meet people where they are,” Jessica explains. That philosophy has helped them attract top talent from firms where rigid structures no longer fit.
If you would like to watch our interview, it is on YouTube:
Law as Business, Practice, and Purpose Jessica is as much a business leader as she is a legal expert. She emphasizes that today’s law firms must be more than traditional billable-hour machines. They must be responsive to change, open to new technologies (including AI), and built around human-centered leadership. Her firm is exploring how AI can make legal work more efficient—not to replace lawyers, but to empower them.
And in a profession where many still define themselves by their titles or roles, Jessica is carving out space for lawyers to live full, multidimensional lives. As she wisely notes, “You’ve got to find a place where you can be your authentic self.”
Key Takeaways Jessica offers two powerful insights for all professionals—not just lawyers:
- Find a place where you can be your authentic self. If your current environment doesn’t support who you are, there are others that will.
- Think of your career as a journey, not a destination. Jessica’s path has included pivots, risks, and new beginnings. That’s what made it rich and meaningful.
Why This Matters Now This episode couldn’t come at a better time. With workplaces in flux, AI reshaping industries, and the next generation demanding purpose and flexibility, Jessica’s story provides a blueprint for a new kind of leadership—one that balances innovation with humanity.
Tune In & Take Action Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe, share with a colleague, and send us your thoughts atinfo@andisimon.com. Want more stories like this? Check out my books On the Brink, Rethink, and Women Mean Business on Amazon.
"Once a quarter, I buy my own company. I step back and ask—what works, what doesn’t, and where the opportunity is." — Hannah Kain, CEO of ALOM
What does it take to turn a nascent idea in an unfamiliar country into a global success? In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Hannah Kain, CEO and President of ALOM, a trailblazing supply chain company that began in 1997 and now operates across 20 global locations.
Hannah’s story is more than a business success—it’s a masterclass in innovation, agility, and values-driven leadership.
A Leap of Faith—a Vision and a Purpose Born and raised in Denmark, Hannah enjoyed a thriving political and business career before she and her husband bought one-way tickets to the U.S. in 1990. What followed was a journey of reinvention and opportunity. By 1997, Hannah founded ALOM in the heart of Silicon Valley, identifying early on the opportunity to use technology to enhance supply chain operations—well before “supply chain” was a mainstream concept.
From the beginning, ALOM was built on innovation. When the company opened its doors, they launched with customer portals and real-time visibility—now standard, but then revolutionary. Their first revenue came from floppy disk duplication. When that technology faded, Hannah pivoted, embracing e-commerce and expanding into regulated industries, always asking: what’s next?
Mind Games for Modern CEOs One of the most striking takeaways from our conversation is how Hannah rethinks her company—regularly. “Once a quarter,” she says, “I buy my own company.” She imagines herself as an outsider, assessing the business with fresh eyes. What would she keep? What needs to go? What opportunities are emerging? This “buy-your-own-business” mindset keeps her ahead of disruption.
This is a deeply anthropological approach—stepping outside your own story to see it anew. It’s also core to a Blue Ocean Strategy: shed the outdated, build the new, and serve unmet needs.
Innovation, Values, and Culture are What Really Matter While Hannah is passionate about technology and supply chain solutions, her foundation is rooted in values—innovation, collaboration, quality, and diversity. Culture, she believes, isn’t a side conversation—it’s a strategic priority.
And when values misalign, even a high performer may not be the right fit. Culture can make or break agility. “Personnel decisions are more strategic than we think,” Hannah observes, especially in fast-changing environments.
You will enjoy watching our Podcast on YouTube:
The Future is Here—If You Can See It We explored how Hannah navigates today’s volatile supply chain world: tariffs, technology, talent shortages, and trade wars. She shared how she mitigates risks—like storing lithium batteries in an award-winning facility designed specifically for safety—and how she balances immediate challenges with long-term strategic thinking.
Her approach? Plan for 95% and build agility for the remaining 5%. “If you don’t plan for 95%, you’ll be stuck firefighting 100%.”
Data, Intuition, and Ecosystems Data is vital, Hannah says—but data alone is not enough. “It’s the rearview mirror. You need to look out the windshield.” What she’s really looking for is meaning—trends, risks, and opportunities derived from experience, context, and yes, intuition.
She credits much of her insight to exploring the entire ecosystem—talking to employees, clients, suppliers, and staying deeply embedded in industry networks. She also emphasized that leaders must separate the urgent from the important, and prioritize the tasks that drive long-term value.
What’s Next? Hannah believes AI will be transformative in supply chain logistics—especially in image recognition, predictability, and precision. She’s skeptical of blockchain until there’s wide-scale collaboration, but excited by AI’s capacity to reduce risk and increase agility.
Her parting wisdom? Don’t get stuck managing risk so tightly that you miss opportunity. Reinvention is possible—and necessary. And it begins, quite literally, with a morning shower and one powerful question: “What’s the most important thing I can do for my ecosystem today?”
Where to learn more about Hannah Kain and the work she is doing: Hannah’s Profile: linkedin.com/in/hannahkain
Website: alom.com (ALOM)
Email: hkain@alom.com
Listen to these other podcasts or read the blogs about them: 442: Joyce Salzberg is Changing Lives Through Early Intervention 436: Women, #WorkSchoolHours Can Transform Your Life 429: Embracing the Future: How Matt Leta is Guiding Companies Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! Andi Simon,PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Award-winning Author| Top 100 Podcaster Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In a powerful episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sat down with Joyce Salzberg, an extraordinary woman whose life and work illuminate the intersection of personal resilience, professional purpose, and societal transformation. Joyce is the co-founder and co-CEO of Sunny Days, a national provider of early intervention and autism services, and the founder of Oxford Consulting, which supports schools and adults with developmental needs. But her journey began with a painful turning point—and became a lesson in turning adversity into impact.
A Catalyst for Change: From Breast Cancer to Bold Beginnings Joyce’s career in early childhood intervention took an unexpected turn after a breast cancer diagnosis while serving as the Associate Executive Director of United Cerebral Palsy of New Jersey. Despite undergoing chemotherapy and radiation, she continued working tirelessly—only to be told her insurance premiums had become a burden and, soon after, that her position was no longer needed.
Rather than retreat, Joyce fought back. She filed a lawsuit, becoming one of the first to test the newly passed Americans with Disabilities Act as a cancer survivor. The case garnered national attention and, ultimately, inspired Joyce to launch Sunny Days in 1994.
Pioneering a New Model of Care Starting in the basement of her home, Joyce reimagined how services could be delivered. While others were focused on center-based programs, Sunny Days sent occupational, speech, and physical therapists into the child’s natural environment—their home. Joyce’s vision was validated when Congress reauthorized the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) in 1998, mandating that early intervention services be delivered in those very environments.
Her innovation wasn’t just timely—it was transformative. Today, Sunny Days serves families in New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, California, and more. Her son now leads operations in New York, her daughter supports administration, and Oxford Consulting continues to expand services for school-aged children and adults.
You may enjoy our YouTube video of this podcast:
Leading with Purpose, Scaling with Precision Running a mission-driven company isn't just about compassion—it’s about operational excellence. Joyce built Sunny Days and Oxford Consulting with no formal business training, relying instead on her background as a social worker, her experience managing programs, and her keen ability to recruit the right experts, understand government regulations, and manage complex budgets.
Today, Joyce oversees a team of 15 directors, with leadership succession plans in place to ensure her legacy lives on. The organization’s services are not only clinically sound—they’re deeply personal. Joyce continues to receive emails from parents whose children have made remarkable progress because of Sunny Days' early intervention programs.
Policy Challenges and a Call to Action Despite its success, Joyce is clear-eyed about the challenges ahead. Funding for early intervention, especially through Medicaid, is at risk. In states like New Jersey and New York, where the majority of children served rely on Medicaid, the future of these programs is in jeopardy.
She urges policymakers to recognize that early intervention is not an expense—it’s an investment. Getting services to children between birth and age three can dramatically reduce the long-term costs associated with developmental disabilities. As Joyce explains, “We save Part B of IDEA money by intervening early, helping children reach developmental milestones before entering school.”
Giving Back with Grace Joyce’s success has come full circle. A first-generation college graduate from a working-class family in Philadelphia, she never forgot her roots. In 2019, she donated $1 million to Temple University to create the Joyce K. Salzberg Center for Professional Development, helping liberal arts students prepare for meaningful careers. She also established scholarships for single mothers, recognizing how hard that journey can be.
Her advice for aspiring women entrepreneurs? Network relentlessly. “You never know who will open the next door,” she says. And most importantly, listen to what others see in you. Sometimes others recognize your potential before you do.
I know you are going to want to know more about Sunny Days and Joyce Salzberg. Here is where to find out more: https://www.sunnydays.com/ https://www.oxfordconsulting.com/ Listen to these other podcasts or read the blogs about them: 438: How Nicole Loftus Is Disrupting Venture Capital 437: Erika Baez Grimes: Purpose-Driven Business Transitions 436: Women, #WorkSchoolHours Can Transform Your Life Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi
In this captivating episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I welcomes an unstoppable force in the world of finance, Victoria Woods—entrepreneur, wealth advisor, speaker, author, and the renowned Financial Diva. What makes Victoria’s story so compelling isn’t just her success in managing money for millionaires and billionaires—it’s how she got there, and what she’s teaching women everywhere about stepping into financial power.
Victoria’s journey began in humble, even challenging circumstances. Growing up poor, abandoned by her father at 11, she learned early how to hustle, survive, and eventually thrive. From organizing games for neighborhood kids to modeling for Montgomery Ward in exchange for school clothes, she was a born entrepreneur. But it was her uncanny ability to see opportunity where others saw limits that ultimately launched her into success.
Women, It is Time To Master Your Money Her first “real” pivot came while working in retail. Rather than taking a promotion, she pitched a new concierge buying service to her boss—a bold move that soon had executives handing her their credit cards and letting her shop for their wardrobes. That fearless innovation caught the attention of a financial executive who saw something unique in Victoria: resilience, determination, and an uncanny knack for follow-through. He recruited her into the world of financial advising.
Seven months later, Victoria took the leap—and never looked back.
Now the founder and CEO of ChappelWood Financial Services in Edmond, Oklahoma, Victoria advises high-net-worth individuals, particularly women who are often underserved or underrepresented in wealth management. But her mission is broader: to educate and empower women about their finances, especially business owners who need to understand, not fear, their numbers.
Watch our podcast video on YouTube here:
Key Lessons from Victoria Woods on Women, Money and Mastering Your Future 1. Your Gut Is Your Superpower—But So Are Your Numbers. Victoria reminds listeners that while your instincts matter, success demands fluency in your financials. “If you're not comfortable with the numbers, you’ve got to get comfortable,” she says. “You should be able to read your profit and loss statements, understand your balance sheet, and question your accountant.” Her practical advice: take an accounting class—even if you’re already running a company. Know your numbers or risk being run by them.
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Don’t Outsource What You Don’t Understand. Too many women assume someone else—often a spouse—will handle their finances. Victoria pushes back. “90% of women will manage their own money at some point in their life,” she says. “You must know what you own, owe, spend, and invest.” Whether you’re growing a business, selling one, or inheriting one, financial literacy is not optional.
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Exit on Your Own Terms. One of Victoria’s most powerful messages is about preparing for what’s next. Succession planning, business exits, and legacy planning all require strategic thought before there’s a crisis. “Don’t plan in the middle of a tornado,” she says. “Start when the sun is shining.” She shares how she’s guided women through inheriting family businesses, navigating complex buyouts, and staying strong in boardrooms full of skeptics.
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Build Your Team with Intention. When hiring financial advisors, accountants, or legal professionals, Victoria encourages women to trust both their head and their heart. “Would you want to have dinner with this person every month?” she asks. Chemistry and clarity matter. Her book, It’s All About the Money, Honey!, includes practical questions women should ask potential advisors—plus the answers they should expect to hear.
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Serve First, Sell Second. At the heart of her success is a simple philosophy: be the easy button. Whether solving a client’s complex tax issue or finding an international attorney for a property dispute, her focus is always service. That’s how she built a practice with 100% retention and a global clientele. “Clients don’t want more work,” she says. “They want someone who makes their lives easier.”
You can read more in her book, "It's All About the Money, Honey," on Amazon.
Why This Conversation about Money and Women Matters Now Women control more wealth today than at any time in history, and the number of women-owned businesses is soaring. Yet many still feel unprepared to manage that wealth with confidence. This episode is a powerful reminder that financial empowerment is about knowledge, confidence, and the courage to ask questions.
As Victoria says, “Don’t take advice from broke people—physically, financially, or spiritually.” Whether you’re launching a startup, scaling a company, or planning a graceful exit, take time to get financially fluent. The future is female—and she should be well-funded.
Learn More To learn more about Victoria Woods, visit ChappelWood.com or search for The Financial Diva online. You can also find her book It’s All About the Money on Amazon and listen to selected chapters she’s recorded to hear her passion and humor come alive.
Ready to get off the brink? Follow the podcast for more stories of women transforming business and life—with purpose, power, and yes, profit.
Listen to these other podcasts or read the blogs about them: 438: How Nicole Loftus Is Disrupting Venture Capital 437: Erika Baez Grimes: Purpose-Driven Business Transitions 436: Women, #WorkSchoolHours Can Transform Your Life Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about our books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
As our workplaces grow more complex and technology accelerates, one skill set is becoming more essential than ever: emotional intelligence. In this compelling episode of On the Brink, I spoke with Jeremy Williams, an emotional intelligence coach and consultant based in Paris, whose journey from sailing instructor to sales professional to global coach reveals how transformative emotional awareness can be—especially in our rapidly digitizing world.
Jeremy’s mission is simple yet profound: help individuals and teams enhance their self-awareness, empathy, and influence to become better collaborators and leaders. His work focuses on helping fast-growth companies develop cultures where people can thrive—and it starts with how we manage emotions, especially the tough ones.
Jeremy’s Journey: From the Sea to the C-Suite Jeremy began his career as a sailing instructor, where he discovered his passion for sharing knowledge. That passion carried him through various industries—from luxury motorcycles to real estate—before he transitioned into teaching business English in France. Eventually, he found his way into consulting with startups and tech companies. As these teams grew from five to fifty employees, Jeremy noticed a recurring issue: "soft skills"—now rightly called emotional intelligence—were the glue (or the gap) in how teams succeeded.
It became clear: technical skills could only take a company so far. People needed to better understand themselves and each other.
What Is Emotional Intelligence? As Jeremy explained, emotional intelligence isn’t a single trait. It’s a set of competencies that determine how well we relate to ourselves and others—especially when emotions run high. Drawing from the Genos model (based on Daniel Goleman’s pioneering work), Jeremy outlined six key competencies:
- Self-Awareness – Recognizing your own emotional state and its impact.
- Awareness of Others – Showing empathy and tuning into how others feel.
- Authenticity – Acting with integrity and consistency; “standing in your own truth.”
- Emotional Reasoning – Blending logic and emotion to make sound decisions.
- Self-Management – Managing your reactions, especially in challenging moments.
- Positive Influence – Inspiring others with your emotional tone and leadership.
In practice, this means pausing before reacting, being present during meetings (no multitasking!), and responding constructively to tension.
As Jeremy put it: “It’s how we positively deal with negative emotions.”
If you prefer to watch our podcast, click here
Peer Coaching for 60: A Simple but Powerful Model To foster these emotional competencies, Jeremy created the Peer Coaching for 60 program. It brings together four peers from different parts of an organization—or even different companies—for four one-hour sessions over four weeks.
Each session gives one participant the “hot seat” to share a challenge, while peers actively listen, ask clarifying questions, and offer insights. Importantly, the participant steps away for part of the session to hear their peers discuss their issue candidly. It’s powerful, humbling, and affirming.
The outcome? Better problem-solving, stronger connections, and a growing global network of emotionally intelligent professionals.
How Emotional Intelligence Drives Engagement Jeremy’s work touches on a problem plaguing many companies today: low employee engagement. His prescription? Presence and intention.
Leaders must “walk the talk”—not just display company values, but live them. Meetings should have purpose, with multitasking discouraged. He introduced the P.I.E.O. model to guide communication:
- Proof: What evidence supports taking action?
- Impact: What are the consequences of action or inaction?
- Energy: What resources are needed?
- Objective: How does this support company goals?
Training employees to think and speak this way improves collaboration, productivity, and focus.
AI and EQ: A Necessary Balance As we explored, AI is transforming business. But what it offers in speed, it lacks in humanity. AI pulls from averages and past data—but human insight, creativity, and relationships come from lived experience and emotion.
Jeremy emphasized that the rise of AI only amplifies the importance of emotional intelligence. Roles focused on repetitive tasks will evolve. What will remain critical is how we build trust, nurture teams, and connect across cultures and experiences.
Key Takeaways * Emotional intelligence is your superpower in a world dominated by algorithms. * Leaders must cultivate presence, empathy, and reflective decision-making. * Peer coaching builds trust, insight, and leadership capacity in a scalable way. * To improve engagement, simplify meetings, foster focused dialogue, and model authenticity. * AI isn’t replacing us—it’s augmenting us. But what makes us human matters more than ever.
Final Thoughts Jeremy’s parting message was one of optimism: Embrace this technological era. Be curious. Stay connected. Lead with empathy. And above all, invest in building emotionally intelligent cultures where people can grow and thrive.
To learn more about Jeremy’s work, visit or find him on LinkedIn. And if this podcast inspired you, please share it—and let’s keep learning from each other.
Where to learn more about Jeremy and his work: Jeremy’s Profile
linkedin.com/in/jpw1
Website
- immutableadventures.carrd.co/ (Personal)
Listen to these other podcasts or read the blogs about them: 435: Navigating the Management Maze: Tips for New Leaders
433: Organizations Must Embrace Human-Centric Design 430: How Does Dr. Chris Fuzie Create Great Leaders? Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about these books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In times of uncertainty, knowing what your business is worth—and how to protect or grow that value—can feel elusive. You are never sure what business you are really in. What should you do? How can you retain the value you have created and prepare for the next growth phase, or even the exit strategy?
On this recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dave Bookbinder. Dave is a business valuation expert whose groundbreaking work focuses on an often-overlooked truth: your people are your most valuable asset.
Dave, the author of The New ROI: Return on Individuals, joined me to unpack how business owners can better understand, manage, and maximize the value of their companies—especially in a rapidly changing business environment. His key message? Valuation isn’t just a number. It’s a reflection of leadership, culture, and strategic clarity.
Let me repeat that: Your business's value is a reflection of leadership, culture, and strategic clarity. What can Dave teach you about how to build and protect that value?
The Human Side of Valuation Dave’s experience spans thousands of valuation engagements across industries. And while balance sheets highlight assets like patents and trademarks, human capital rarely makes the cut. “Every CEO says their people are their most valuable asset,” Dave points out, “but where do they show up on the balance sheet? They don’t.”
That gap sparked his first book, The New ROI, which explores the critical link between culture, engagement, and enterprise value. His second, The New ROI: Going Behind the Numbers, draws from his award-winning podcast, Behind the Numbers, which focuses on how leadership and culture truly impact business performance.
You will totally enjoy watching our video of the podcast here.
Common Valuation Mistakes Dave shared some of the biggest pitfalls business owners face when it comes to valuing their company:
- Relying on rules of thumb: “Back-of-the-napkin” valuations based on hearsay can be wildly misleading. Dave recounted a client who declined a generous acquisition offer assuming better ones would follow. Years later, the business couldn’t command even half that valuation.
- Tax-driven financials: Many entrepreneurs minimize income to reduce taxes, only to struggle during a sale. Buyers don’t take your word for “adjusted EBITDA”—they want clean, auditable numbers.
- Unrealistic projections: Over-optimistic forecasts, especially those shaped like a hockey stick, often destroy credibility with buyers. “They’re buying the future,” Dave says. “And if your projections seem disconnected from market realities, they’ll discount for risk.”
De-Risking Your Business to Maximize Value Buyers and investors are risk-averse. That’s why Dave emphasizes the need to "de-risk" your business:
- Clean financial statements: Avoid running personal expenses through the business. Have your books reviewed or audited by a CPA.
- Strong management team: If the business can’t run without you, it’s not scalable—or sellable.
- Documented processes: Institutional knowledge should live in systems, not just in people’s heads.
“If your business can’t survive you getting hit by a bus,” Dave quips, “you don’t have a sellable business.”
Exit Planning is a Process, Not an Event Whether you’re transferring ownership to a family member or preparing for an acquisition, Dave urges owners to think ahead. “Selling a business is like selling a house,” he explains. “You need to get an appraisal, clean it up, and understand what similar businesses are selling for.”
He also warned that poorly integrated acquisitions often fail—not due to valuation issues, but because of clashing cultures. “Seventy-five to ninety percent of deals miss their synergy targets because they ignore people and culture,” he says.
Why Culture is Core to Company Value As a corporate anthropologist, I know firsthand how culture shapes performance. Dave agrees. “It’s not that successful companies have a good culture—it’s that good culture drives success,” he said.
When leaders overlook how work gets done—or try to impose a new cultural model without understanding the old one—they risk alienating key people and destroying value. Culture is the operating system of the business.
Your People Are Your Value Dave’s work offers a refreshing, human-centric view of business valuation. Whether you're growing, planning an exit, or considering acquisitions, the lesson is clear: your people, your culture, and your credibility are the real ROI.
If you’re curious to learn more, check out Dave’s books on Amazon:
- The New ROI: Return on Individuals
- The New ROI: Going Behind the Numbers
- The Valuation Toolbox for Business Owners and Their Advisors
And tune into his award-winning podcast, Behind the Numbers.
Final Thought In today’s volatile market, it's not just about numbers—it's about narratives. The story you tell buyers, investors, or the next generation about your company must be grounded in reality, powered by culture, and led by people who are truly your greatest asset.
To reach David Bookbinder and read his books: Dave’s Profile: linkedin.com/in/davebookbinder Websites: * linktr.ee/BehindTheNumbers (Portfolio) * NEWROI.com (Personal) * amazon.com/Dave-Bookbinder/e/B075SDJ12F (Portfolio)
Email: davebookbinder@gmail.com Listen to these other podcasts or read the blogs about them: 435: Navigating the Management Maze: Tips for New Leaders
433: Organizations Must Embrace Human-Centric Design 430: How Does Dr. Chris Fuzie Create Great Leaders? Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about these books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In this inspiring episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of interviewing Nicole Loftus, a powerhouse entrepreneur with a bold vision to democratize access to venture capital. As the founder and CEO of Pop Venture Enterprises, Nicole is doing more than imagining change—she’s building it.
Nicole’s journey began, as many transformative ones do, with a disruption—not of an industry at first, but of her own life. Raised in a traditional, working-class Italian family near Chicago, Nicole was expected to follow a conventional path. But after a personal turning point, she realized she had more to offer. She turned her keen eye for observation into a career of innovation, disrupting a $26 billion industry with her first company, Zorch, and now setting her sights on venture capital itself.
Disrupting an Antiquated System of Venture Capital Investments Nicole’s new venture, Pop Venture, challenges a venture capital model that has long excluded the majority of Americans—especially women and people of color. With only a small number of venture dollars going to diverse founders, she saw a deeply flawed system that was gatekept by geography, identity, and elitism. Her solution: a publicly accessible, SEC-approved fund that allows anyone to invest in promising companies for as little as $25.
What makes Pop Venture unique is its transparency and accessibility. The investment process is broadcasted publicly on platforms like Peacock, and viewers are invited to weigh in on the businesses that receive funding. “We make venture popular,” says Nicole. This is venture capital for the people—by the people.
The Locker: Empowering Founders with Verified Diligence Pop Venture isn’t just about funding—it’s also about empowering founders. Nicole created The Locker, a platform where entrepreneurs can submit their companies to a rigorous but founder-friendly diligence process. The goal? To showcase viable businesses with clear value and real potential, all in a transparent format the public can trust. This creates a win-win: investors see vetted opportunities, and entrepreneurs gain access to capital without the often-demoralizing hoops of traditional fundraising.
Perhaps you like to watch our podcast on YouTube. Click here:
Key Takeaways from the Conversation with Nicole Loftus 1. Innovation Begins with Observation Nicole’s mantra echoes the podcast’s tagline: “From observation to innovation.”She urges entrepreneurs to observe not only the market but themselves. Her breakthrough came from seeing what others overlooked—redundancies in the supply chain and outdated funding models—and being bold enough to reimagine them. 2. Scale Requires Focus Nicole didn’t scale Zorch by chasing every opportunity. She created strict criteria for prospective clients and turned down deals that didn’t meet them. Her advice? Know your ideal customer, set your standards high, and stay focused. 3. Disruptors Must Think Big Nicole’s story is a testament to the power of visualization. She imagined herself as an entrepreneur when it seemed impossible. Then she imagined a billion-dollar business model—and she built it. She now urges others to dream big and write it down.Your brain needs a plan. 4. Listen for the Pain Points Through training like the Sandler sales method, Nicole learned to ask one critical question: “What’s your pain point?” This insight guided her innovations, whether for clients, suppliers, or herself. 5. Anyone Can Be a Venture Capitalist Through Pop Venture, everyday Americans can now support the businesses they believe in—and share in their success. It’s not just financial inclusion; it’s financial empowerment.
Why This Matters Now Nicole’s work comes at a time when trust in traditional financial systems is eroding, and entrepreneurs are seeking alternatives to inequitable funding models. Pop Venture is more than a fund—it’s a movement. With television access, founder-friendly tools, and crowd-powered capital, it’s putting the future of business in everyone’s hands.
As we wrapped our conversation, I was reminded why I launched this podcast—to spotlight pioneers who see, feel, and think in new ways, and to help listeners find the courage to do the same.
To Learn More: * Visit www.popventure.com to invest, apply for funding, or explore their founder resources. * Watch Pop Venture episodes on Peacock (free or with subscription). * Explore The Locker for verified diligence tools.
Final Thought: Disruption doesn’t always start with technology. Sometimes it starts with a question: What if we did it differently? Nicole Loftus asked that question—and answered it with action. Want more stories like Nicole’s? Visit www.andisimon.com, read our books, or contact us to explore how anthropology can help you discover your Blue Ocean. Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about these books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Award-Winning Author
Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Are you ready to sell your business? It may be time to pass your family firm to the next generation. What do you do? Where do you begin? How can you ensure that you follow your values and transition your business with purpose, kindness, and profit? Maybe it is time to meet Erika Baez Grimes.
What is the Human Side of Business Transitions? In this compelling episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we delve into the human side of business transitions with Erika Baez Grimes, a seasoned business broker, M&A specialist, and purpose-driven entrepreneur. Erika's extensive experience as a Senior Certified Mergers and Acquisitions Professional with Transworld Business Advisors, and as the founder of The BPH Group and The Buyer's Agency, makes her a trusted voice in the industry. Her mission is clear: to help people do good deals with good people—transactions rooted in legacy, emotion, and values, not just numbers.
Erika and I first connected at the Entrepreneurs with Companies of Purpose event, and I knew she had a story to share right away. In this episode, she opens up about her journey from helping her grandfather run fashion boutiques in Orlando to rising as a respected voice in the business brokerage industry. Her early exposure to entrepreneurship gave her a lifelong passion for business and sales, a path she blended with her experience in banking and corporate leadership.
Some Practical Advice is Essential to Transition your Business Throughout our conversation, Erika offers practical advice—and heartfelt wisdom—for business owners contemplating an exit and aspiring buyers looking to acquire a company. She discusses the "silver tsunami" of baby boomers preparing to retire, legacy businesses' emotional and strategic complexity, and the rising interest among women in acquiring established enterprises. Erika shares three essential things every seller should do before they decide to sell:
- Start the conversation early—if you're considering selling, it's time to talk.
- Work yourself out of the business—the more your business can run without you, the higher its value.
- Keep clean, transparent financials—they are the real story buyers will trust (or not).
You might like to watch our podcast on YouTube here:
But Erika also goes deeper. She highlights how business owners often feel lost after they exit. Their identity has been deeply tied to their company, and the vacuum that follows can be disorienting. That's why Erika emphasizes the importance of planning for the transaction and the transition. Who will you be when you're no longer the CEO?
How Does Culture Share Your Succession Plan? We also explore how culture shapes succession planning, particularly in family firms. Erika works closely with multigenerational businesses and understands the delicate dynamics between personal relationships, employee loyalty, and strategic vision. She emphasizes the importance of finding the right buyer—someone aligned not only with the financials but also with the founder's legacy and values.
Avoid Buyers Remorse For buyers, Erika offers clear guidance: prepare before you pursue. Get financing lined up, know your strengths, and approach the opportunity with transparency and intention. Sellers want to know their business will be in good hands. And increasingly, those hands belong to women—smart, driven, and ready to lead.
Whether you're a seasoned entrepreneur looking to exit or someone considering buying their first business, Erika's insights are honest, helpful, and deeply human. This episode is a masterclass in purpose-driven dealmaking and the art of helping others transition from one chapter to the next with clarity, care, and confidence.
Key Takeaways: * Why the timing of a business sale is both emotional and strategic * What makes a business attractive to buyers—and how to increase your value * How Erika helps bridge the gap between a seller's legacy and a buyer's vision * The growing role of women in M&A and business acquisition * Why coaching and self-discovery are vital post-exit tools for sellers
You'll leave this conversation with a clearer understanding of the M&A process, the questions you should be asking (whether buying or selling), and a renewed appreciation for the human side of business transitions.
Contact Erika Baez Grimes:
📧 Email: erika@erikathebroker.com 🌐 Website: erikathebroker.com 🔗 LinkedIn: Search Erika Baez Grimes
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433: Organizations Must Embrace Human-Centric Design
430: How Does Dr. Chris Fuzie Create Great Leaders?
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Additional resources for you: * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy and Culture Change * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about these books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Award-Winning Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Imagine a ten-year-old girl in New Zealand watching an army commercial and declaring, "That's what I want to be". This simple declaration set Dr. Ellen Joan Ford on a transformative journey, a journey of leadership, service, and a new way of thinking about work. Her story is not just inspiring, it's a call to action for all of us. Women are asking for flexible work for working parents. Our businesses want the talented women to be able to focus on both their families and their workday. It is a time for changing how businesses treat women.
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Ellen Joan Ford—a leadership expert, military veteran, and the creator of the global #WorkSchoolHours movement. Ellen joins us from New Zealand with a deeply timely and universally relevant message: the structure of work must evolve to meet the real needs of modern families.
From the New Zealand Army to Leadership Thought Leader Ellen's story begins with a decade of service in the New Zealand Army, where she worked as an engineer officer and led soldiers at home and abroad. Her military career taught her discipline, courage, and—most importantly—how to lead. As she transitioned out of the military, she pursued an MBA and later a PhD in leadership, driven not by ambition but by a personal challenge.
Her doctoral research focused on the leadership experiences of women in the military, surfacing both empowering stories and persistent gender-based inequities. Rather than stop with research, Ellen took action, advising the Chief of the New Zealand Army and presenting her findings to senior leadership. Her goal? To make the Army more inclusive—not just for women, but for everyone.
The Birth of #WorkSchoolHours You will enjoy watching Ellen's podcast on YouTube here:
What began as academic research soon became a mission when Ellen was bombarded with personal stories from working parents. Over 500 parents shared their frustrations: being forced out of the workforce due to caregiving, missing irreplaceable moments in their children's lives, or being underpaid for the same responsibilities simply because they worked "part-time."
One night, while breastfeeding her youngest son, Ellen had a powerful realization: "I don't want this for me or anyone else." This was the birth of the #WorkSchoolHours movement, a movement that is not just a response to a problem, but a call to action for immediate change.
What Is the #WorkSchoolHours Movement? #WorkSchoolHours is not about working less—it's about working smarter. It's a flexible work philosophy that allows employees, especially parents, to align their work schedules with family commitments without compromising performance or pay.
Ellen explains, "We live in a world where we're expected to parent like we don't have a job and work like we don't have children. That's not sustainable."
Through her model of Belonging, Autonomy, and Purpose (BAP), Ellen offers a new way to lead and manage teams. Inspired by both anthropology and leadership science, BAP emphasizes:
- Belonging: Creating a work culture that acknowledges employees as whole people.
- Autonomy: Giving individuals the flexibility to manage their time and deliver results.
- Purpose: Helping people connect their work to something meaningful.
Ellen argues that when leaders focus on these elements, they can reduce burnout, increase productivity, and retain top talent—especially working mothers and caregivers. This not only benefits the employees but also the businesses, as it leads to a more engaged workforce and better business outcomes.
Her Book: A Practical Guide to Revolutionizing Work In her new book, #WorkSchoolHours: A Revolution for Parents, Workplaces, and the World, Ellen doesn't just talk about change, she provides a practical roadmap for it. With three powerful sections—what's Wrong, what's Possible, and How to Fix It—this book is more than a manifesto. It's a toolkit for those ready to revolutionize their workplaces.
The book includes real-world examples from industries ranging from logistics to healthcare to manufacturing and provides actionable strategies for leaders who want to focus on outcomes rather than hours.
Even more exciting? Ellen is giving away her e-book for free on her website, ellenjoanford.com, using the code today. This is just one small way she's walking the talk about accessible change.
Why This Matters Now In the U.S., over 50% of the workforce is women, and over 40% of children are born to single mothers. Yet, most workplaces still operate on models developed over a century ago. As artificial intelligence and other technologies transform our professional landscape, isn't it time to rethink the outdated 9-to-5?
Dr. Ford's call to action is both compassionate and commercially wise. As she says, "Happy people deliver better results." Her message is clear: when we redesign work around the realities of human life, everyone wins—parents, companies, and communities.
Listen, Learn, and Lead Differently If you're a business leader, HR professional, or just someone juggling the demands of work and home, this episode will leave you inspired—and equipped—to take action. As a corporate anthropologist, I believe change happens through small wins. Ellen Ford shows us how powerful those wins can be when rooted in purpose.
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430: How Does Dr. Chris Fuzie Create Great Leaders?
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Additional resources for you: * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy and Culture Change * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about these books here: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let’s Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I'm thrilled to welcome back Dr. Karl Hebenstreit—organizational psychologist, executive coach, speaker, and now the author of a powerful new book: Explicit Expectations: The Essential Guide and Toolkit of Management Fundamentals.
Karl's insights will be eye-opening if you're a leader, manager, or anyone asked to take charge without much training or clarity. His central message? Everything is a conversation—and when expectations aren't explicit, confusion and conflict inevitably follow.
From Enneagram to Explicit Expectations You may remember Karl from a previous episode where he shared his passion for the Enneagram. That framework, which focuses on motivation rather than just behavior, changed how he saw people and how they relate to one another. In today's conversation, we explored how that same thinking inspired his latest work—helping new managers step into their roles with clarity, confidence, and connection.
Karl's journey into HR and organizational psychology wasn't always linear. Early in his career, he realized that promoting high-performing individuals into management often left them unprepared for what came next. "We promote people and assume they'll figure it out," Karl says. "But without guidance, they're left adrift." That recognition became the seed for his new book.
Why We Get Expectations Wrong Karl shared a striking observation: most people operate from their internal "golden rule," assuming that others want to be treated like they are. But what if that isn't true?
This insight draws from both the Enneagram and Karl's own coaching experience. Managers often expect others to intuit their expectations, only to be disappointed when those assumptions don't lead to desired outcomes. The solution? Make expectations explicit—hence the book's title.
Explicit Expectations is more than just a how-to guide. It's a toolkit grounded in real organizational challenges, especially for newly promoted managers without formal training. It offers a structured way to define goals, conduct one-on-ones, manage performance, lead team meetings, and even handle terminations—all through the lens of clear communication and alignment.
From Confusion to Clarity: Building a Living Agreement At the heart of Karl's approach is the Explicit Expectations Engagement and Alignment Guide—a tool that allows managers and employees to co-create clarity. It's not a static checklist but a living document that evolves as business conditions and roles change. It helps each party articulate their motivations, communication styles, and priorities.
This idea resonated deeply with me. As a corporate anthropologist, I've seen firsthand how ambiguity breeds misalignment and disengagement. Karl's guide gives teams a shared language and mutual understanding, vital to navigating change—something we know is constant in today's fast-moving workplaces.
A Simple but Powerful Question One of my favorite takeaways from our conversation is Karl's approach to team dynamics: "Just ask." Ask how someone prefers to receive feedback, what motivates them, and how they want to resolve conflict. These conversations don't require a PhD in psychology—just curiosity, empathy, and a willingness to listen.
Karl emphasized that even without formal Enneagram training, managers can learn to tailor their approach by simply being explicit in conversations. The platinum rule—treating others as they want to be treated—starts with understanding what that looks like for each person.
Embracing Differences to Build Stronger Teams Karl and I also explored how embracing cognitive and motivational diversity leads to stronger, more customer-centered organizations. He shared how teams begin to see the value of different Enneagram types and break free from the idea that there's one "right" way to lead or be led.
This is especially relevant today as businesses navigate generational differences, hybrid work, and rapid digital transformation. As Karl puts it, "Your team is a microcosm of your customers." Understanding internal diversity helps you connect more authentically with external markets.
You may prefer to watch our podcast video on YouTube here:
Practical Tools for Real Change Karl's work is deeply relevant whether you're leading a startup or a legacy institution. His book offers practical tools—strategic planning, onboarding, feedback, coaching, accountability, DEI practices—all through the lens of clarity and alignment. These tools are not just about being a better manager; they're about empowering you to be a better communicator and collaborator, capable of driving real change in your organization.
And yes, Karl now has an AI-powered training twin! His methods are available in person, virtually, or through AI-enabled programs. As I often say, the future is here—and Karl is helping us manage it better. His methods have the potential to inspire and motivate change, transforming the way we manage and communicate.
Key Takeaways from the Episode:
- Unspoken expectations are a recipe for misalignment. Managers must articulate their needs and ask about others' preferences—don't assume.
- The Golden Rule is outdated—aim for the Platinum Rule. Understand others' motivations and communication styles to treat them the way you want to be treated.
- Build a living agreement. Use Karl's Engagement and Alignment Guide to create and revisit shared expectations as goals and roles evolve.
You can find Explicit Expectations on Amazon or at your favorite bookstore. To learn more about Karl and his work, visit www.performandfunction.com or connect with him on LinkedIn at Karl Hebenstreit.
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe to On the Brink with Andi Simon, leave a review, and share it with a colleague. And remember: the words you use to create the world you live in. Let's make those words clear, kind, and explicitly aligned. By committing to these principles, we can all contribute to a more engaged and harmonious work environment.
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
This podcast is about an amazing woman and her journey from Wall Street to Purpose-Driven Leadership. Meet India Gary-Martin’s and listen to her amazing journey to Chair the Women Business Collaborative (WBC).
On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the great pleasure of speaking with India Gary Martin—an accomplished global executive, entrepreneur, and now the new Chair of the Women Business Collaborative (WBC). India’s story is more than a professional journey—it’s an inspiring narrative about opportunity, resilience, and leadership rooted in purpose.
A Global Journey Rooted in Advocacy India began her career with ambitions far from Wall Street—initially pursuing drama at Spelman College, an all-women’s institution that helped shape her lifelong commitment to advancing women. A pivot to business led her to Wall Street, where she spent nearly 25 years rising through the ranks and across borders, holding CEO and CTO roles in major financial institutions. Her global career took her to London, Frankfurt, Tokyo, and Hong Kong, all while raising a family and nurturing a growing passion for justice and equity.
Through it all, India remained grounded in one core belief: opportunity emerges when you stay open to change. Her career was not meticulously planned but rather built through taking chances—ones that would later translate into entrepreneurial ventures and global leadership roles.
From Banking to Beauty: The Entrepreneurial Chapter India’s foray into entrepreneurship was sparked not only by her desire to chart her own path but by a wake-up call. After returning from a business trip, her young daughter barely recognized her. It was a moment of reckoning—and renewal.
What followed was a bold leap: the launch of a green nail polish line that grew from two retail shops in London to 300 stores across Europe and the Middle East, including Harvey Nichols and Space NK. But success is never linear. Brexit disrupted the business, scaring off investors and forcing India to shut it down. “It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done,” she told me, “but I learned how to pivot, and that failure isn’t failure—it’s just learning.”
Her next chapter returned her to her roots in leadership. With Leadership for Execs and Lucent Learning, India created scalable coaching and leadership development platforms for companies, governments, and nonprofits. She also launched Act Three, a community designed to support women in midlife transition. Each venture reflects her holistic vision of leadership: adaptive, inclusive, and deeply human.
Carrying Forward a Vision: Honoring Edie Fraser The Women Business Collaborative (WBC), which India now chairs, was founded by the remarkable Edie Fraser, a visionary leader in her own right. Edie had a bold and clear mission: to accelerate progress for women in business by uniting the efforts of organizations, corporations, and individuals under a single collaborative umbrella. She recognized that too many were working in silos—fighting the same battles for equal pay, position, and power. Edie’s vision was both simple and powerful: we can go farther, faster, together. Her leadership transformed a concept into a movement, building a platform that now connects over 80 partner organizations, dozens of corporate champions, and countless advocates committed to equity. India Gary Martin steps into this legacy with both reverence and readiness, taking WBC into its next chapter of impact.
You will enjoy watching our podcast with India here: Why WBC, Why Now? India’s appointment as Chair of the Women Business Collaborative couldn’t have come at a more important time. As she told me, “WBC has a tremendous opportunity right now to be a beacon for women in business. It’s not just about convening—it’s about shaping the future.”
With over 80 partner organizations, sponsors, and donors, WBC stands at the forefront of driving change. India brings to it not just experience, but a deeply reflective, philosophical approach to leadership. She believes that collaboration doesn’t mean compromising your mission—it means amplifying what unites us.
“I don’t believe in pushing the boulder uphill,” she said. “We do this with ease because it’s who we are. It’s how we operate.”
Leading by Redesigning the Container One of the most profound insights India shared during our conversation was about the importance of culture in shaping behavior. “People behave as the container creates,” she explained. Rather than focusing on fixing people, she argues, organizations should focus on fixing the environment in which they operate.
This anthropological lens is close to my heart. Culture isn’t changed with a program or a policy—it’s transformed through trust, relationships, and the daily experiences that shape how people feel and behave. As India noted, work has become transactional. We must bring it back to being relational.
A Call to Community As we wrapped up our conversation, India left listeners with three powerful takeaways:
- You are not alone. Find your tribe. WBC is one of them.
- Opportunity is everywhere. Even the stormiest moments will pass—every storm runs out of rain.
- We are better together. None of the changes we seek can happen in isolation. Collaboration is not a strategy—it’s a necessity.
India also shared her excitement for the upcoming Women’s Capital Summit in New York City on May 21–22. This event is all about connecting women founders with funders—and building the future of shared success. “Founders and funders, please come out,” she urged. “This is a real moment for us.”
Final Thoughts India Gary Martin’s story reminds us that the path to leadership isn’t always straight—but it is always full of opportunity if we stay open. She embodies the power of living with purpose, leading with vision, and building together.
To learn more, listen to the full podcast on On the Brink with Andi Simon and be sure to check out WBC’s work and the Women’s Capital Summit. Let’s go further, faster—together.
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Additional resources for you: * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy * Our Medium publications (come friend us) * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon,PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In today’s rapidly evolving workplace, the disconnect between people and their work has never been more apparent—or more urgent to address. That’s why I was thrilled to welcome Brent Kedzierski, a renowned expert on the future of work and human-centric design, to the On the Brink podcast.
Brent’s mission is clear: to improve the human condition at work, one experience at a time. With more than 35 years of experience—including as Head of Learning Strategy and Innovation at Shell—he brings unique insight into why digital transformation fails, how people resist change, and what organizations can do to rebuild engagement and purpose.
The Future Is Human—And Already Here
As William Gibson reminds us, “The future is already here. It's just not widely distributed yet.” Brent feels the same way. People often assume technology is the answer to productivity and innovation—but without human adoption and emotional investment, it falls flat. In fact, 90% of digital transformation initiatives fail, not because the technology is flawed, but because people aren’t prepared to embrace it.
Why? Because humans are fallible, social, adaptable—and resistant to change without a clear purpose. It is that clear purpose that seems to be the hardest thing to get agreement on. Without focus, people wander all over, creating meaning when there is none.
Understanding the Human Condition at Work
Brent grew up in Pittsburgh, a city built on industry. Watching his family work in steel mills, he developed a fascination with why people work the way they do. That question still drives him. At Shell, he led global initiatives using simulations, virtual reality, and HR analytics to optimize human performance—but found again and again that vendors focused on tech, not people.
In every successful transformation, Brent starts by understanding the human experience. As he puts it, people need:
- A reason to believe change is useful
- Tools that are easy to use
- Proof that change offers a relative advantage
- Compatibility with their current reality
These four principles make up 80% of successful adoption. Engagement only happens when people see, feel, and believe that something will make their work—and their lives—better. And, trust me, if they don’t “see it” they have no idea what you are talking about.
What Is Human-Centric Work Design?
Human-centricity isn’t new. Since the 1950s, design theorists have argued for putting people at the center of systems. But Brent takes this further by introducing the Human Experience Model, which maps out the full work journey:
- Expectations – What workers anticipate about a task.
- Experience – What actually happens when they perform it.
- Adaptation – How they adjust in real time.
- Reflection – What they take away and how it shapes future behavior.
When organizations ignore this model, they create what Brent calls “experience debt”—inefficiencies, stress, and disengagement that build up over time. As Brent said, “People only change when they see the value and feel a sense of urgency. Without that, even the best-designed systems fall apart.”
Health, Wellness, and the Cost of Disconnected Work
The toll of misaligned work isn’t just emotional—it’s physical and economic. Brent notes that 70% of all primary care visits today are stress-related. Poor workplace design contributes to chronic conditions, burnout, and even work-related suicide. He reminds us: “Contented cows give better milk”—in other words, healthy, supported humans produce better outcomes.
Organizations that invest in worker wellness—clear communication, psychological safety, autonomy, and purpose—see higher engagement and productivity. And they reduce the enormous costs of turnover, illness, and missed opportunities.
Watch the video of our podcast here. Lessons from the Field
Brent shared powerful case studies, including one at Shell where digital procedures on iPads replaced outdated paper manuals. Initially resisted by veteran operators, the new system became a hit—not because it was faster, but because it gave workers a voice. Their field notes were finally visible to others, prompting action.
In another project, avatars in a virtual training module used thoughtful communication techniques. The surprising feedback from Gen Z trainees? “I wish my supervisor talked to me like the avatar does.”
What Comes Next?
As we wrapped, Brent offered a teaser: the rise of AI and the flood of data pose a new challenge. By 2026, 90% of online content is expected to be AI-generated. Yet 80% of the data companies create today is never used again—a growing source of digital waste.
To navigate this future, we must design systems that balance tech innovation with human needs. Brent calls this the move from Industry 4.0 to Industry 5.0—where technology elevates, not replaces, people.
The Takeaway: See, Feel, Think—Then Change
As a corporate anthropologist, I urge clients to change only after seeing what’s going on and feeling how it impacts people. Brent’s insights reinforce that truth: transformation isn’t about adopting the newest tool. It’s about designing work that empowers humans to thrive.
Let’s rethink what work really is. Not a place, not a task, but a shared human experience.
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let’s Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
How you might ask, did Gloria Bohan transition from being a Schoolteacher to an amazing Travel Titan.
Welcome to a special episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, where we spotlight remarkable women entrepreneurs in our series, Wisdom of Women Entrepreneurs with Purpose: Hear Their Voices.
I'm thrilled to kick off this journey with Gloria Bohan, a true trailblazer in the travel industry and the visionary founder of Omega World Travel.
Starting with Passion, Building with Purpose Gloria's story is nothing short of inspiring. In 1972, she was a schoolteacher with no business experience, let alone a background in travel. She had a passion for cruising and a desire to pay one employee. From those humble beginnings, she built a global travel management company that now books over $1 billion in annual sales.
"I didn't have a grand vision," Gloria recalls. "I just wanted to survive. But I kept doing the things I needed to do—and opportunities began to evolve." This unexpected success is a testament to the power of determination and adaptability.
Lessons from a Mentor and the Power of Relationships A turning point in Gloria's journey came through mentorship. A seasoned woman in the travel industry took Gloria under her wing, staying with her for six months to train her and guide her through the nuances of the business.
"She was so determined," Gloria said, recalling how her mentor—even in a slightly askew gray wig—won customers through grit and charm. "Being around people like her helped me grow into the leader I became."
This hands-on mentorship helped Gloria understand that great businesses are built not just on processes but on relationships—both with customers and employees. "People are watching you," she explains. "You must lead by example, be honest with yourself, and stay true to your values."
If you want to watch our video, click here:
Growing with the Industry, Innovating Through Change Over five decades, Gloria's company has grown by continuously adapting to change—from the deregulation of the airline industry in the late '70s to the rise of PCs and today's digital and post-pandemic travel landscape.
"I didn't plan it," she says. "But I kept my eyes open. I stayed curious. When new opportunities came—whether it was bidding on government contracts or adopting emerging tech—I took them."
That entrepreneurial spirit remains at the heart of Omega World Travel. Gloria believes that passion must be paired with constant learning and evolution. "No company can just be what they were," she emphasizes. "You must modernize, but never lose the values that made you strong."
Success with Significance: Building a Business That Gives Back Gloria champions purpose more than anything. For her, success isn't just about profits—it's about people, community, and creating meaningful impact. Her commitment to a purpose-driven business model is not only inspiring but also a powerful reminder of the potential for businesses to make a positive difference in the world.
"We're not in business just to be profitable," she says. "If we don't have buy-in from our people, we don't have purpose."
Gloria ensures that her company gives back, from mentoring young talent to participating in community efforts like Junior Achievement and Habitat for Humanity. For instance, we have a program where our employees volunteer at local schools to teach students about the travel industry. Her team gets involved, learns, grows, and contributes—building a culture of purpose that transcends the office.
The Entrepreneurial Spirit in All of Us As our conversation ended, Gloria reminded listeners that entrepreneurship isn't just about owning a business—it's a mindset.
"Big companies need intrapreneurs," she says. They need people with ideas, creativity, and passion who bring innovation to everything they do.
Whether you're starting your own venture or shaping change within a larger organization, Gloria's journey is a masterclass in how purpose and perseverance can take you from the brink to beyond.
Final Thoughts Gloria Bohan's story is a beacon for women entrepreneurs and leaders everywhere. It reminds us that significance can—and should—go hand in hand with success. As we continue this series with women like Gloria, we hope their stories help you reframe your own.
We hope these stories help you reframe your own.
Let's change the story—together.
To learn more about Gloria Bohan: Gloria’s Profile:linkedin.com/in/gloria-bohan-07773a14 Websites * owt.net (Company) * owt.net/travelfaxx/ (Blog) * facebook.com/omegaworldtravel?ref=search&sid=100000522586195.4089387147..1
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: Learn more about them here + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
What if your face could reveal your deepest emotional blocks? What if your burnout, self-doubt, or imposter syndrome were not flaws—but signals calling you back to your truest self?
In a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sat down with the remarkable Tammy Cho, a self-love and energy leadership coach based in British Columbia. Tammy is not just a coach—she’s a healer, a mentor, and a guide who helps leaders and entrepreneurs reconnect with their authentic selves. Using a unique combination of face and body analysis, psychosomatic therapy, human design, and NLP, Tammy helps people understand the deeper emotional and spiritual patterns shaping their lives.
From Burnout to Breakthrough Tammy’s journey began as a nurse and patient care leader in one of Canada’s largest hospitals. She spent 20 years in healthcare before burning out so severely that she landed in the ER—chest pains, numbness, and a terrifying sense of disconnect.
But the real wake-up call came later. After the birth of her daughter, Tammy realized she couldn’t feel joy. Watching her baby hit a dangling toy for the first time left her numb. It took a visiting nurse to point out what Tammy couldn’t see: she wasn’t bonding with her child. This emotional void forced her to confront a lifelong pattern of emotional abandonment—beginning with being left by her mother at just 20 days old.
This became the catalyst for deep personal transformation. Tammy dove into therapy, personal development, NLP, and energy healing. Despite financial success, she still felt unfulfilled. It wasn’t until she discovered psychosomatic therapy—a powerful approach that integrates body, mind, heart, and soul—that true healing began.
If you enjoy watching the video, click here on YouTube
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I am joined by Dr. Chris Fuzie, Ed. D, leadership expert and author of the thought-provoking new book Liminal Space: Reshaping Leadership and Followership. Together, we explore how leadership is evolving and how traditional distinctions between "leader" and "follower" no longer apply in dynamic, modern organizations. Dr. Fuzie shares insights from his 28-year career in law enforcement and his academic journey in organizational leadership. Dr. Fuzie is a seasoned leader, educator, and consultant with a passion for transforming organizations through innovative leadership practices.
He introduces the concept of liminal space—a transformative, in-between zone where individuals often occupy roles of both leader and follower simultaneously. Through engaging storytelling and a practical behavioral framework, he challenges us to think differently about how we lead, how we follow, and how we cultivate organizational cultures of adaptability, accountability, and grace.
Whether you're in the C-suite, a middle manager, or just starting your leadership journey, this episode offers fresh and applicable insights to help you navigate fast-changing times.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn about Leaderology and Liminal Space: * What liminal space is and why it matters for today's leaders and followers * Why leadership is behavior, not position—and how followership is just as critical * How Chris developed his Tessellations of Behavior model for strategic, tactical, and operational alignment * The power of clearly defined behaviors like integrity, teachability, and grace in shaping organizational culture * How the National Leaderology Association is working to elevate leadership and followership as scientific disciplines * Why grace and empathy are essential tools for modern leadership in a world of rapid change and AI integration
You will enjoy watching our podcast on YouTube. Other podcasts you will enjoy: 429: Embracing the Future: How Matt Leta is Guiding Companies
428: Al Must Transform Our Communication Strategy. Just Ask Dan Nestle!
427: Empowering Women in STEM: Rashmi Chaturvedi’s Journey
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Connect with me: * Website: www.simonassociates.net * Email: info@simonassociates.net * Books: + Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business + Women Mean Business + On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
On a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of talking with Matt Leta, a visionary entrepreneur, author, and futurist who is helping organizations navigate the rapidly changing business landscape. Founder and CEO of The Future Group—home to Future Works, Future Horizon, and Future Quest—Matt joined me to share his bold vision for the future of work and how businesses can adapt and thrive in the age of AI and automation.
A New Kind of Transformation
What’s clear from my conversation with Matt is this: we are not heading back to the way things used to be. The fourth industrial revolution is here, and it’s rewriting the rules. Matt's experience in building digital products, advising startups, and working with giants like Apple and Google has led him to rethink how companies approach innovation. Rather than viewing AI as just another tool, Matt sees it as part of a broader cultural and structural shift—what he calls “next-gen digital transformation.”
Matt believes we are entering a new age—what he calls the "age of intelligence." It’s not just about adding AI to business operations. It’s about creating a new business “brain,” where humans, software, and artificial intelligence work together in a symbiotic system. He compares this to the human brain’s evolution, where the reptilian brain, the limbic system, and the neocortex work in harmony. Businesses, he argues, must also evolve in layers—people, data/software, and intelligence—functioning as one.
You will love watching our podcast on YouTube
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In this thought-provoking episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we welcome Dan Nestle, a strategic communications expert and AI enthusiast, to explore the transformative role of artificial intelligence in marketing, branding, and storytelling. With over 20 years of corporate and agency experience, Dan has been at the forefront of digital and content innovation, helping businesses adapt to the rapidly evolving communications landscape.
As AI tools become more sophisticated, many professionals are left wondering: Will AI replace human creativity? Can AI-generated content be authentic? How can businesses use AI without losing their unique voice? Dan tackles these pressing questions, offering real-world insights into how AI can serve as a powerful assistant—rather than a replacement—for communicators, marketers, and business leaders.
During our conversation, Dan shares his fascinating career trajectory, from teaching English in Japan to leading global corporate communications teams. Now, as the founder of Inquisitive Communications, he helps organizations navigate AI’s impact on content strategy, storytelling, and audience engagement. He also provides a step-by-step breakdown of the AI tools he uses daily to streamline content creation, repurpose valuable insights, and enhance branding efforts without sacrificing authenticity.
We’ll discuss the importance of curiosity in embracing new technologies, the fear and hesitation many professionals feel around AI, and why adopting AI-driven workflows can save time, increase efficiency, and improve creativity. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, an entrepreneur, or just starting to explore AI’s potential, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help you integrate AI into your communications and branding efforts.
Get ready to rethink how you approach content in the age of AI, and learn why being human is still the most valuable differentiator in a tech-driven world.
If you prefer to watch the video of our podcast, click here.
About Dan Nestle 🔹 Founder, Inquisitive Communications – Helping marketing & communications professionals navigate AI. 🔹 Host, Trending Communicator Podcast – Recognized by PRWeek as one of the Top 25 Movers & Shakers in Communications Technology. 🔹 Global Experience – With 20+ years in corporate and agency roles, Dan brings a global perspective to AI-driven branding and content.
🌐 Website: beinquisitive.com 🔗 LinkedIn: Dan Nestle 📸 Instagram: @TrendingCommunicator
You will enjoy these other podcasts: 426: Time for Work That’s Worth It?
407: Shaping the Future: Dr. Emily Springer on Responsible AI in Business
420: Join Kevin Cirilli to Meet the Future
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * All of our white papers, particularly those on Change Matters and on Blue Ocean Strategy * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi SImon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In this inspiring episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, host Andy sits down with Rashmi Chaturvedi, a trailblazer in the technology space and an advocate for women in STEM. Rashmi shares her remarkable journey—from her early beginnings in India to becoming a respected leader in digital transformation and entrepreneurship in the United States.
Early Beginnings & Bold First Steps Rashmi opens up about her initial challenges as a young professional arriving in the U.S. with little knowledge of the local work culture. Fresh from completing her master’s degree in India, she took a bold leap by applying for a role at Nextel. A series of unexpected events—starting with a delayed connecting flight and a van accident—set the stage for a defining moment. Despite arriving late at a closed office, Rashmi’s determination led her to insist on speaking with someone. A senior executive, who happened to be the only one still working in a lit corner office, not only listened but immediately offered her the job. This serendipitous experience taught her the importance of persistence and trusting one’s gut.
You will enjoy her video on Youtube:
Climbing the Corporate Ladder at Nextel & Disney After proving her mettle as a database administrator at Nextel, Rashmi’s journey took her to Disney, where she immersed herself in a culture known for both technical excellence and inclusivity. At Disney, she encountered one of her most influential mentors—a senior woman whose authoritative presence and drive left a lasting impact. Their informal yet transformative mentorship sessions (often initiated in unexpected places like a restroom) helped Rashmi expand her perspective from strictly technical expertise to a broader understanding of business strategy and customer-focused innovation. This period not only reinforced her technical abilities but also ignited a passion for leadership and holistic business thinking.
Entrepreneurship & Building KAYGEN. After a decade with Disney, personal challenges at home—most notably caring for her ailing daughter—became a turning point. Realizing the need for a more flexible work-life balance, Rashmi embraced her entrepreneurial spirit. With encouragement from her supportive husband, she launched her own data management practice, which later evolved into KAYGEN. The company, whose name is inspired by the Japanese word Kaizen (continuous improvement), reflects her vision of blending technology with business strategy to drive sustainable competitive advantages. Under her leadership, KAYGEN has grown exponentially, even earning recognition on the Inc. 5000 list.
Empowering Women in STEM A key theme throughout the conversation is mentorship and the importance of representation. Drawing on her own experiences of isolation in male-dominated tech environments, Rashmi has launched the UpTempo Careers program. This initiative focuses on guiding women returning to or advancing in STEM fields through job coaching, mock interviews, and mentorship from top executives. By fostering a community where women see themselves represented in leadership roles, she believes that more women will feel empowered to pursue and thrive in STEM careers.
Key Takeaways
- Perseverance Pays Off: Rashmi’s early experience at Nextel is a testament to the power of persistence.
- Mentorship is Vital: Finding role models and nurturing relationships can transform a career.
- Embrace Change: Whether it’s a career pivot or launching your own company, change can lead to growth.
- Invest in Community: Supporting underrepresented groups in STEM builds a stronger, more inclusive future.
To learn more about Rashmi and her journey visit her here:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rashmic/
Her website at: kaygen.com (KAYGEN)
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
The intersection of purpose and profit is redefining modern careers, and our latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon explores this compelling shift with guest Georgii Enthoven. A Harvard MBA and global business leader, Georgi shares her fascinating career journey, insights from her upcoming book Work That’s Worth It (launching April 8), and the importance of intentional careers that merge contribution with compensation.
The Future of Work: Purpose and Profit Go Hand-in-Hand
As capitalism reaches a tipping point, thought leaders worldwide, are exploring how businesses and careers must evolve. A growing number of professionals are no longer satisfied with choosing between financial success and meaningful work. Instead, they are finding ways to achieve both.
Georgina, who once struggled to balance her personal drive for impact with a high-earning corporate career, realized that the key isn’t an "either-or" approach—it’s "and." Purpose and profit can and should coexist. This realization led to her book, which offers guidance on building careers that sustain both personal well-being and global impact.
How to Build a Career That Matters
During the podcast, Georgi outlined a framework to help professionals align their work with their values:
- Identify a Problem Worth Solving: Careers should be built around real-world challenges that inspire action. Whether it’s sustainability, social justice, or healthcare innovation, finding a mission-driven focus is key.
- Merge Ambition with Impact: Many professionals, like Georgina, initially succeed in high-paying jobs but feel unfulfilled. Shifting toward work that aligns with personal values doesn’t mean giving up success—it means redefining it.
- Intentionality is Essential: The modern workforce spends approximately 90,000 hours on their careers. Georgina emphasizes that these hours should be spent wisely, creating lasting contributions while ensuring financial stability.
- Learn from Trailblazers: The book Work That’s Worth It features inspiring companies like Client Earth (holding governments accountable for environmental policies). The stories provide a roadmap for anyone seeking to build a business or career with impact.
If you prefer to watch the video, click here:
Why This Matters More Than Ever
The demand for purpose-driven businesses is growing rapidly. Companies that align with ethical and social goals are attracting top talent, loyal customers, and long-term success. The rise of B Corps and social enterprises demonstrates that impact-driven business models are here to stay.
What’s Next?
Georgi Enthoven’s Work That’s Worth It is set to be a must-read for professionals seeking to balance financial success with making a difference. As a leader in purpose-driven business development, she will continue guiding individuals and organizations to rethink the way they approach their careers.
Final Takeaways
- Work Should be Intentional: Careers should contribute meaningfully to both personal and societal well-being.
- Success is About Impact, Not Just Income: The highest earners don’t always feel the most fulfilled. Find a balance.
- The Future is Purpose-Driven: Businesses that prioritize both sustainability and profit will shape the next generation of success stories.
If you’re looking to build a meaningful career, don’t miss this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon. Listen now and be sure to grab a copy of Work That’s Worth It on April 8!
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let’s Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
I recently had the pleasure of interviewing Barbara Holifield—a seasoned Jungian analyst, psychotherapist, and somatic psychology expert—on my podcast On the Brink with Andi Simon. Barbara’s insights, drawn from decades of experience and personal transformation, left a deep impression on me, and I’m excited to share our conversation with you. In our discussion, Barbara introduced me (and hopefully you) to the powerful idea that our body is not just a collection of parts but a unified whole, and that true transformation begins when we tune into our physical sensations as much as our thoughts.
What is a "Whole Body Transformation?" In her new book, Being with the Body in Depth Psychology, Barbara explores the profound importance of accessing the inwardly felt body in depth psychotherapeutic process to enhance the experience of affective life. She draws her insights from philosophical perspectives, neuroscientific and infant research, developmental theory, and trauma studies. What she discovers is a comprehensive overview of embodiment. From her experience, Barbara offers clinical vignettes to demonstrate the critical value of working with bodily felt implicit relational memory. This approach is particularly important with those who have suffered developmental trauma.
A Journey of Personal Transformation During our conversation, Barbara shared how her own experiences with trauma and adversity led her to a path of self-discovery and healing. What struck me was her belief that by “dropping the story”—that is, stepping away from the often-limiting narratives we create about our experiences—and instead fully experiencing our bodily sensations, we can connect with a more authentic and grounded version of ourselves. Barbara explained how modern life tends to push us to compartmentalize our experiences, but she reminded me that our mind, heart, and gut are deeply interconnected. Our earliest, instinctual responses, rooted in our sensory and emotional experiences, are just as important as our cognitive interpretations.
Key Take-Aways from Our Interview 1. The Body as an Integrated Whole: Barbara challenged the idea that our bodies are just a collection of parts—like a car with separate components. Instead, she stressed that our physical, emotional, and cognitive experiences are all interconnected. This holistic perspective not only helps us understand trauma and adversity but also empowers us to transform those experiences by engaging with our whole selves. 2. Transformation Through Mindful Presence: A central theme of our conversation was the transformative power of mindfulness. Barbara emphasized the importance of pausing to feel and acknowledge our physical sensations, especially during challenging moments. By doing so, we can break free from the limiting stories we tell ourselves and access a more balanced, authentic response to life's ups and downs. 3. Enhanced Communication and Relationship Building: Relationships often falter when we let our personal narratives—filled with assumptions and unspoken grievances—take over. Barbara shared how simply expressing our true feelings; by communicating the physical sensations and emotions we experience in the moment, can lead to deeper empathy and understanding. This approach not only fosters healing in ourselves but also strengthens our bonds with others.
You might enjoy this video of our interview on Youtube. Practical Steps I’m Taking to Better Understand My Body and My Mind Inspired by Barbara’s wisdom, I’ve started incorporating a few practices into my daily routine, and I’d love for you to try them as well:
- Mindful Sensation Check-Ins: I now make it a point to pause throughout the day and check in with my body. I notice my breath, the tension in my shoulders, or the steadiness of my feet. This small act of awareness helps me stay connected to my body, especially during stressful times.
- Journaling My Sensory Experiences: After particularly emotional moments, I take a few minutes to jot down the physical sensations I felt. This practice has helped me differentiate between the story my mind creates and the raw, embodied experience of my emotions, providing clearer insights into my responses.
- Engaging in Embodied Movement: Whether it’s through yoga, authentic movement, or a mindful walk, I’ve found that engaging in activities that connect me with my body has been transformative. Appreciating simple moments—like a sunrise or a heartfelt connection with a friend—reminds me to experience life fully and authentically.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk!
In the latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sat down with Vladiimer Botsvadze—a true pioneer in digital transformation and marketing innovation—to discuss building a personal brand in an era dominated by AI and automation. Our conversation weaved together inspiring personal anecdotes, actionable insights, and a clear message: authenticity and human connection remain the bedrock of success, even as technology reshapes our world.
Vladimer’s journey is nothing short of remarkable. Originally from Georgia, he moved to the United States at the age of 18 and quickly discovered that building a personal brand was essential to thrive in New York City. When traditional social media platforms were in their infancy, Vladimer understood that face-to-face networking and self-education were crucial. He frequented the New York Public Library, attended physical networking events, and embraced the frenetic pace of the city to carve out his unique niche. This early commitment to personal growth paid off—by leveraging platforms like Twitter, he grew his following exponentially, demonstrating that persistence and authenticity can break down even the toughest barriers.
You might love to watch our podcast on Youtube: Throughout the podcast, Vladimer emphasized the shift from traditional marketing to a new paradigm where customer engagement and community-building take center stage. In today’s digital landscape, brands are no longer just logos or products; they are vibrant communities built on trust, interaction, and authentic storytelling. Vladimier’s own experience is a testament to this transformation. By sending over 130,000 tweets and actively engaging with his audience, he not only built a vast following but also fostered genuine relationships. His advice is simple yet profound: “Be interactive, show gratitude, and build community.” This approach, he explained, is crucial because in a world where 90% of internet content is predicted to be generated by AI, the human element becomes a key differentiator.
Another central theme of our conversation was the rapid evolution of technology. Vladimer drew parallels between historical disruptions—such as Blockbuster’s failure to adapt to the digital revolution—and the current transformative power of generative AI tools like ChatGPT, Midjourney, and Perplexity. He cautioned that while these tools are reshaping content creation and marketing, it is essential to balance automation with authenticity. For Vladimir, the true power of AI lies in its ability to augment human creativity rather than replace it. His message to marketers and brands is clear: adapt to the digital revolution now or risk being left behind, much like those who once clung to outdated technologies.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let’s Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we explore the fascinating world of podcasting—its past, present, and potential future. Joining me are two extraordinary guests: Chad Parizman, founder of Adder Communications and a podcast consultant with years of experience helping brands harness the power of audio, and Mark Schaefer, a renowned marketing expert, author, and podcaster. Together, we delve into the transformative role of podcasts in today’s rapidly evolving media landscape.
Meet our Guests: Mark Schaefer and Chad Parizman
Podcasting’s Emergence and Growth Podcasting has exploded, with over 4.2 million podcasts worldwide and a steadily growing audience. Chad’s journey began at Pfizer, where he introduced podcasting as a tool for internal and external communications. His experience revealed podcasting as a medium with endless possibilities for storytelling, marketing, and engagement. He emphasized that podcasts aren’t one-size-fits-all—they can be interview-based, documentary-style, seasonal, or entirely unique. The key, according to Chad, is to let the content dictate the format, not the other way around.
Mark’s introduction to podcasting stemmed from curiosity and a desire to expand his expertise beyond blogging. His strategy? Start small and sustain joy. “To stand out,” he explains, “you’ve got to be great and passionate about what you’re doing.” Over 13 years, Mark’s podcast evolved with rotating co-hosts, reflecting his belief in relevance—matching passion and skills to the needs of the audience.
Why Podcasting Works Both guests agree: podcasting is about authenticity, trust, and human connection. Unlike polished social media or video content, podcasts offer a raw and personal experience. As Mark points out, “A podcast is one of the last bastions of truly human, authentic, and trusted content.” Chad adds that technology, including AI tools, is making it easier than ever to focus on creating compelling content while automating time-consuming tasks like editing and research.
The Future of Podcasting Relevance and purpose remain at the heart of successful podcasts. As Chad notes, listeners are increasingly drawn to niche content tailored to their interests, often willing to pay for it through subscription services. Mark believes podcasting will remain a critical medium for building authentic relationships, both for individuals and brands.
AI also looms large in podcasting’s future. While tools like voice synthesis can assist with production, Mark and Chad agree that the human element will always be essential for building trust and emotional connections.
Key Takeaways 1. Podcasting’s Personal Connection
* Podcasts thrive on authenticity and human connection. Great podcasts make listeners feel like they’re part of a meaningful conversation, not just an audience.
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Creative Formats for Great Podcasts
- Break away from traditional weekly interviews. Experiment with formats like solo episodes, seasonal releases, or well-researched documentary-style series.
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The Future of Podcasts is Niche
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Listeners are seeking content that resonates deeply with their interests. Building a small but loyal audience is often more impactful than chasing mass appeal.
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AI Can Enhance Podcasting
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From editing to show notes, AI tools streamline production, freeing creators to focus on storytelling and delivering value. However, authenticity remains key.
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Monetization Through Passion and Purpose
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Podcasts with clear goals and dedicated followings are increasingly supported through subscriptions and direct listener funding. Be top of heart, not just top of mind.
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Podcasting’s Future is Bright
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With a growing listener base and its unique ability to build trust, podcasting is poised to remain a dominant medium for content creation and marketing.
Final Thoughts Podcasting is no longer just a hobby; it’s a powerful medium for storytelling, brand building, and connecting with audiences on a deeper level. Whether you’re a podcaster, a listener, or considering starting your own show, this episode offers insights into how to thrive in this exciting and ever-changing space.
Let us know your thoughts—where do you see podcasting heading next?
Other Podcasts you will enjoy include: 407: Shaping the Future: Dr. Emily Springer on Responsible AI in Business
396:Mark Schaefer: The Customer is Changing. How Can We Build a Community Through Marketing?
406: The Greatest Journey of a Woman Entrepreneur in Mental Health: Dr. Barbara Brown’s Story
Additional resources for you: * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, coauthored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
On the latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we explore the innovative and impactful journeys of two remarkable guests: Shanna Greathouse, founder and CEO of Pigybak, and Joe Manofsky, chairman, president, and co-founder of One Step Ahead Ohio. These two changemakers are reshaping how we think about skilled trades, community development, and career pathways in ways that are inspiring and deeply transformational.
Shanna Greathouse: Transforming Communities Through Technology
Shanna Greathouse’s entrepreneurial journey is rooted in her love for community and her passion for creating equitable solutions. As the founder of Pigybak, she’s revolutionizing the way homeowners and tradespeople connect. Leveraging AI-driven technology, Pigybakprovides a marketplace where contractors can streamline their scheduling while homeowners access affordable, collaborative home services. The company’s unique "group deal" model encourages neighborhood collaboration, reducing costs and fostering a stronger sense of community.
Drawing from her background in consulting and analytics, Shanna turned her observations of inefficiencies in the trades and home services industry into an innovative platform. Her deep commitment to supporting local tradespeople—many of whom are small business owners from underrepresented groups—adds a layer of purpose to Pigybak’s mission. For Shanna, the initiative isn’t just about home services; it’s about empowering tradespeople, rebuilding neighborhoods, and creating sustainable opportunities for growth.
Joe Manofsky: Advocating for Workforce Development in Ohio
Joe Manofsky’s path to philanthropy and advocacy began in his hometown of Youngstown, Ohio, where community values shaped his drive to give back. As the co-founder of One Step Ahead Ohio, Joe leads a nonprofit that focuses on eliminating executive salaries, ensuring transparency, and directly supporting local families and nonprofits in Northeast Ohio. His initiatives extend to workforce development through the Skilled Labor Foundation, which aims to address the skilled trades shortage.
Joe’s vision includes early career exploration programs for middle school students, exposing them to the vast opportunities in skilled trades. By creating events that connect students, parents, and trades professionals, Joe and his team hope to shift the narrative around the trades, demonstrating that these careers are viable, lucrative, and vital to our economy. Through transparency, collaboration, and advocacy, Joe is transforming the perception of skilled trades, ensuring they are recognized for their significance and potential.
Shifting the Trades Narrative To Build Better Communities
Together, Shanna and Joe are tackling a shared challenge: changing the perception of skilled trades. Whether it’s through gamifying trades to highlight their athleticism and skill or hosting community events that connect stakeholders, their work emphasizes the importance of collaboration and storytelling. As Andi Simon noted during the episode, this movement is about rebranding the trades, creating pride in these careers, and highlighting their critical role in community development.
Why These Programs Matter
In a time when workforce shortages are impacting industries from construction to healthcare, the work of innovators like Shanna and Joe is more important than ever. Their stories inspire action—whether it’s supporting local tradespeople, exploring workforce development grants, or simply rethinking the career paths we advocate for in our communities.
Takeaways for Listeners
- For Homeowners: Pigybak offers a way to support local tradespeople while collaborating with neighbors for affordable, community-driven solutions.
- For Advocates: One Step Ahead Ohio demonstrates how transparency, collaboration, and grassroots initiatives can drive change in workforce development.
- For Everyone: By raising awareness about the skilled trades, we can help young people see the potential for meaningful, successful careers outside of traditional college pathways.
As I like to remind us, “Take your observations and turn them into innovations.” Shanna and Joe are perfect examples of this philosophy in action, using their insights to create solutions that empower individuals and strengthen communities.
Catch the full episode to learn more about their inspiring work and discover how you can contribute to transforming the trades in your community.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon, the podcast dedicated to helping you see, feel, and think in new ways so you can thrive in today’s fast-changing world. Each episode, we bring stories and insights designed to spark innovation and personal growth. This episode explores the transformative power of emotional intelligence (EI), featuring insights from a renowned business psychologist, Dr. Robin Hills, who has impacted the lives of hundreds of thousands across the globe.
In this episode of "On the Brink," we talk with Dr. Hills, a business psychologist and director of "EI4Change," about the crucial role of emotional intelligence (EI) in today's tech-driven world. We explore how EI aids personal and professional growth, especially amidst AI advancements and the pandemic's impact. Robin shares his journey into EI, emphasizing its importance in navigating emotions and relationships. Of great importance in understanding EI today is the generational challenges, the influence of technology on emotional skills, and the need for comprehensive EI education. The episode underscores the irreplaceable human qualities of empathy, creativity, and emotional awareness.
If you prefer to watch the video, click here:
Let’s dig further into EI. Emotional intelligence is about being smart with your feelings—combining thinking and emotions to make sound decisions and build authentic relationships. At its core, it involves self-awareness, self-regulation, empathy, and social skills. Developing EI is a lifelong journey, and it starts with recognizing your emotions and understanding how they influence your decisions and relationships. With practice, individuals can learn to respond wisely to emotions, even in challenging situations.
Emotional Intelligence is essential to succeed in today's fast-changing world. In today’s world, EI plays a critical role in navigating the complexities of life and work. As technology continues to advance, our emotional intelligence becomes even more essential, setting us apart from artificial intelligence. While AI can enhance our capabilities, it cannot replicate human creativity, empathy, or the ability to build meaningful connections. By embracing technology as a complement to our human skills, we can unlock new opportunities for growth and innovation.
Developing EI requires a conscious effort to manage distractions, such as digital devices, and prioritize real-world interactions. It’s important to foster emotional learning at all stages of life and create environments that value and nurture emotional intelligence. This includes teaching children the importance of empathy and social skills, as well as encouraging adults to reflect on their behaviors and adapt to changing circumstances.
Key takeaways from this episode include: 1. Cultivate self-awareness by regularly reflecting on your emotions and behaviors. 2. Practice self-regulation by pausing before reacting and choosing responses that align with your values. 3. Foster empathy and connection by actively listening and seeking to understand others.
Listeners are encouraged to explore additional resources on emotional intelligence and consider how they can apply these principles in their own lives. Dr. Hills has two books available: "The Authority Guide to Emotional Resilience in Business" and "The Authority Guide to Emotional Resilience in Business," both published in The Authority Guide Series. By improving your emotional intelligence, you can lead more effectively, build stronger relationships, and adapt to the challenges of a rapidly evolving world.
Thank you for joining this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon. Remember, change begins with seeing, feeling, and thinking differently. For more insights, explore books like On the Brink, Rethink, and Women Mean Business. Together, let’s turn observations into innovations and unlock our potential for growth and success. Until next time, have a wonderful day!
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In this compelling episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I welcome Kevin Cirilli, a visiting media fellow at the Atlantic Council, an accomplished journalist, and a futurist thinker and founder of mtf.tv's meet the future.. Kevin shares his remarkable journey from a young journalist covering high-profile stories to becoming a thought leader in technology, and global innovation, and creator of mtf.tv's meet the future. Our conversation is further enriched by the presence of Edie Fraser, my co-author of Women Mean Business, who introduces Kevin with a heartfelt endorsement of his forward-thinking leadership.
A Journey Rooted in Integrity and Passion Kevin begins by recounting his upbringing in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, where he developed an early fascination with news, technology, and storytelling. His journey into journalism was unexpected but transformative. While attending Penn State University, he joined the Daily Collegian, where he discovered his passion for reporting. Covering crime stories and student government campaigns, Kevin honed his storytelling skills and learned the importance of trust and integrity in journalism.
He shares a pivotal moment when his coverage of the Penn State child abuse scandal led to his first professional opportunity with Politico. Despite initial challenges, Kevin’s dedication to seeing stories through to completion—and his commitment to truth—earned him recognition as a rising star in journalism.
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The Unexpected Path to Covering Trump Kevin discusses his unique experience covering Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign. What began as an assignment to cover Trump’s hacked Twitter account evolved into a historic role as he followed the candidate across the country. Kevin shares anecdotes about the whirlwind nature of Trump rallies and the moment he realized the profound impact of his reporting when Trump won the presidency. He reflects on his time as Bloomberg’s Chief Washington Correspondent, where he reported on the intersection of global business and politics, gaining unparalleled insights into world affairs.
A Shift Toward Geopolitics and Technology As Kevin’s career progressed, he felt a growing desire to explore broader issues beyond traditional politics. His fellowship with the Atlantic Council allowed him to focus on the intersection of geopolitics, technology, and security. He emphasizes the importance of understanding how emerging technologies like AI, space exploration, and quantum computing are reshaping global dynamics. Kevin advocates for freedom and ethical innovation, stressing the need to ensure that the creators of critical technologies share democratic values.
Introducing “Meet the Future” Kevin introduces his latest venture,, mtf.tv's meet the future, a platform dedicated to fostering dialogue about the challenges and opportunities of tomorrow. Initially starting as a mentorship program, mtf.tv's meet the future has quickly established itself at the intersection of all things future -- markets, crypto, robots, space, quantum computing, workforce, artificial intelligence, and more. His newsletter mtf NOW is one of the most read daily future tipsheets and mtf's young professionals fellowship program mentors students from five different universities. mtf has partnered with tech platforms, think tanks, non-profits, and media platforms.
Kevin says the mission for mtf.tv's meet the future is clear: embrace freedom to meet the future's challenges and opportunities. He envisions mtf.tv's meet the future as a platform that inspires the next generation of leaders while sparking meaningful conversations about the technologies shaping our lives.
Kevin Cirilli's Passion for Storytelling In a surprising twist, Kevin reveals his foray into theater with the creation of a new play, The Man in the Red Hat. This creative endeavor reflects his deep commitment to storytelling and his belief in the power of narrative to inspire change. While details remain under wraps, Kevin describes the writing process as a joyful and transformative experience, offering a new medium for him to explore his ideas.
Lessons and Takeaways Throughout the episode, Kevin shares valuable lessons from his journey:
- Follow Your Interests: Pursue what excites you, even if the path is unconventional.
- Embrace Change: Be willing to pivot when opportunities arise.
- Prioritize Integrity: Success comes from staying true to your values.
- Have Fun: Joy and passion are essential for long-term fulfillment.
Final Reflections As the conversation concludes, Andi and Edie celebrate Kevin’s inspiring vision for the future. They highlight his ability to translate complex global issues into accessible insights, emphasizing the importance of embracing freedom, innovation, and collaboration. Kevin’s journey, filled with unexpected doors and transformative experiences, serves as a powerful reminder of the impact one person can have on shaping the future.
To learn more about Kevin Cirilli and subscribe to his Meet the Future newsletter, visit MTF.tv.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in geopolitics, technology, and the transformative power of storytelling. Kevin Cirilli’s story is one of resilience, curiosity, and the relentless pursuit of knowledge, making it a perfect fit for the On the Brink with Andi Simon audience.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Self-awareness is a game-changer in leadership, and Jennifer Leslie is proof of that. In this episode, Jennifer, a human resources executive, author, and meditation teacher, shares her inspiring journey and groundbreaking work in creating conscious leadership programs. Her message is simple but powerful: to lead others effectively, you must first understand and lead yourself.
Jennifer's unique perspective on leadership, rooted in her early career in catering and event management, is truly enlightening. Managing teams of up to 250 individuals, she developed a fascination with understanding people’s strengths and creating environments where everyone could thrive. Transitioning into HR, Jennifer combined her operational expertise with a deep passion for empowering individuals to excel.
Check out Jennifer's video podcast here:
Five years ago, Jennifer's leadership approach underwent a pivotal transformation when she enrolled in the Inner MBA program. This collaborative initiative by Sounds True, NYU, and Wisdom 2.0 emphasizes conscious business practices, encouraging leaders to prioritize self-care as a foundation for better leadership. Jennifer took this mindset back to her organization, where she developed a 12-workshop leadership program designed to foster listening, tough conversations, and feedback skills—cornerstones of effective leadership in today’s fast-paced workplace.
Jennifer's workshops play a crucial role in empowering leaders to navigate the pressures of modern work environments. She observes that leaders are often afraid to confront tough situations, but Jennifer’s workshops equip them to face challenges with courage and authenticity. By teaching leaders to embrace discomfort, Jennifer ensures they can have honest, impactful conversations that drive growth and build trust.
Jennifer's work is a testament to the power of collaboration. In addition to her workshops, Jennifer contributed to the book Leading with Self-Awareness, a collaborative effort by the Changing Work Collective. In her chapter, Jennifer shares a transformative moment that occurred while listening to a sermon from her father, an Episcopal priest. Inspired by the phrase “Be bold,” she reexamined her career and committed to stepping outside her comfort zone. Her chapter provides practical tools to help others do the same, making the book a powerful resource for anyone seeking personal and professional growth.
Jennifer’s story reminds us that leadership is not just about commanding teams but about creating connections, fostering inclusion, and empowering others to succeed. Her approach aligns with modern leadership principles emphasizing humility, transparency, and collaboration over command-and-control methods.
For Jennifer, being bold means rethinking her leadership style and helping others reimagine theirs. She encourages leaders to ask themselves, “What are you giving up if you don’t take a step forward today?” Her message resonates in a world where work and leadership are rapidly evolving.
Jennifer’s work demonstrates that conscious leadership is about more than just achieving business goals—it’s about transforming workplaces into environments where individuals can truly thrive. Her innovative leadership programs and insights from Leading with Self-Awareness provide a roadmap for anyone ready to embrace change, take bold steps, and lead with intention.
Key Takeaways:
- Self-awareness is the foundation of effective leadership.
- Listening and tough conversations are essential skills for creating inclusive and successful teams.
- Being bold means stepping out of your comfort zone and embracing change with courage.
- Leadership is about creating environments where everyone feels valued and can contribute their best.
Reach out and contact us if you want to become a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Award-Winning Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
This podcast for On the Brink with Andi Simon is about how Sue Willoughby helps women over 40 transform their lives using her approach, Equus Coaching.Sue Willoughby is on a mission to help women over 40 tackle their challenges and build better lives. Through her business, Willoughby Coaching, she uses a unique method called Equus Coaching, where clients work with horses to learn more about themselves. These sessions focus on non-verbal communication, leadership, and personal growth, helping women make big changes in their lives.
Sue Willoughby's Journey to Equus Coaching has not been Easy Sue’s journey hasn’t been easy. She grew up with a single parent who struggled with alcoholism. This taught her to be strong and face tough situations, even when she didn’t feel confident. Coming out as gay at 17 was another challenge, and by 19, she faced such deep struggles that she attempted suicide. For a while, her life felt like it was spinning out of control.
Things turned around in the 1990s when Sue met her partner. They moved across the country, and Sue started to rebuild her life. She went back to school, found a new career, bought a home, and became a real estate investor. During this time, she reconnected with her love for horses, which had always been a source of comfort during tough times.
Her Goal is to Guide Other Women Today, Sue uses what she’s learned to guide others. Through Equus Coaching, she helps women understand themselves better and overcome what’s holding them back. Horses, she says, are amazing teachers because they respond to how we act and feel, even when we don’t say a word.
Sue also practices what she teaches. She’s done all kinds of exciting things, like being a DJ, stand-up comedian, actor, pilot, and Roller Derby referee. These experiences help her connect with her clients, showing them how stepping out of their comfort zones can lead to amazing growth.
Now living near Seattle, Sue shares her life with a horse named Moose, two Dachshunds named Benny and Buddy, and a VW Bus she calls Arlo. Her story is proof that it’s never too late to make a change and live the life you want.
If you prefer to watch our podcast, click here Other Podcasts you will enjoy include: 411: TaRita Johnson Tackling the Challenges of DEI and Belonging
406: The Greatest Journey of a Woman Entrepreneur in Mental Health: Dr. Barbara Brown’s Story
414: Ilene Rosenthal: Inspiring a Revolution in Children’s Education
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, coauthored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Reach out and contact us if you want to become a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Lotus Buckner, founder and CEO of HLB Talent Solutions and author of The Joy of HR. Lotus is a dynamic leader in the human resources field with experience spanning corporate environments, startups, and everything in between. Her insights on HR's evolution and intentional leadership are essential for understanding today’s workplace.
Lotus Buckner's Transformational HR Journey Lotus’s path to HR began during college when she stumbled upon a management and HR concentration. After taking her first HR class, she discovered her passion and launched a career that has spanned nonprofits, healthcare, universities, and startups. Her first role at a nonprofit hospital turned into an 11-year journey where she advanced from intern to head of HR, managing significant growth and leading efforts through the COVID-19 pandemic.
Her experiences have shaped her understanding of how HR functions differ across industries. From resource-heavy corporations to scrappy startups, she emphasizes how organizations require distinct approaches to people management. This adaptability is a key theme in her book.
If you prefer to watch our podcast, click here: Finding Joy In the Corporate vs. Startup HR In larger organizations, HR often revolves around specialization, with leaders focusing on well-defined roles. In contrast, startups demand versatility and a generalist mindset, with employees wearing multiple hats. Lotus embraced this shift when she transitioned to leading HR for Chowbus, a food delivery tech startup. She describes startups as spaces where creativity and adaptability are paramount, which prepared her to establish her consulting business.
During her corporate career, Lotus often encountered leaders who viewed HR as the solution to culture change. She notes, however, that true cultural shifts require the engagement of everyone in the organization, not just HR.
Reach out and contact us if you need work on becoming a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance. Let’s Talk! XfwsFCuF4RtszJp9ovnh
From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
I love to bring back great guests to our podcast, On the Brink with Andi Simon. Recently, I had the pleasure of reconnecting with Nori Jabba, an insightful author, speaker, and advocate for empowering women through their communication skills. With her extensive experience and deep understanding of the challenges women face in leadership roles, Nori's insights are invaluable. In 2023, she joined our podcast to discuss her groundbreaking first book, Keeping Your Seat at the Table, which shed light on the unique obstacles women face in leadership and offered actionable strategies to overcome them.
Women, It is Time to Master Your Voice Now she has a chapter in a new book, OWN YOUR STORY that is available today on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, among others. Her chapter is about how women have to go beyond finding their voice to mastering that voice.
During our conversation, Nori shared her journey, highlighting the importance of resilience, confidence, and, most notably, the power of voice. Her work encourages women not only to find their voice but also to master it. This mastery, Nori argues, is essential for women to lead and influence others effectively. Her current research focuses on how the way women speak directly affects how they are perceived, heard, and followed in professional settings, providing practical strategies for improvement.
One of the key takeaways from our discussion was Nori's exploration of "verbal mastery." Her latest work emphasizes that it's not just about speaking up but mastering how we communicate. Verbal mastery goes beyond just having a voice at the table. It's about how women can manage or lead depending on how they verbally present themselves—whether they speak with authority or empathy or engage others confidently or openly. This work is particularly relevant in today's professional world, where effective communication is one key essential to a woman's success.
Why Mastery? People Hear What They Want To! In her chapter, Nori explains that verbal mastery matters in leadership because people hear what they want to hear. When women speak, others are constantly evaluating whether they trust them, whether they'll follow them, and whether they believe in what they're saying. The challenge for women leaders is to recognize this dynamic and adapt their communication accordingly, not only to be heard but also to inspire trust and command respect.
If you prefer to watch the video, Nori Jabba: Women How to Master Your Voice Reach out and contact us if you want to become a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance. Let’s Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Kimber Maderazzo, a remarkable leader whose journey through the Beauty and Cosmetics industry is nothing short of inspiring. Kimber's story is one of perseverance, talent, and an unyielding drive to succeed despite daunting challenges.
A Journey of Innovation and Leadership Kimber's career spans over 25 years in the Beauty and Cosmetics industry, a field where she has worn many hats—from starting out at a makeup counter at the age of 14 to eventually finding herself in the boardroom of the world's leading acne brand. Her path was not linear or easy, but it was driven by a clear vision and a love for what she does. Kimber has consistently delivered innovation-driven revenue growth throughout her career in small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) and Fortune-ranked companies. She has successfully defended against industry giants with significantly larger budgets, staged an 8-point market share comeback, and modernized business models to resonate with younger audiences, resulting in a nine-digit top-line impact. These achievements are not just numbers on a balance sheet—they are milestones that reflect Kimber's deep understanding of market dynamics and her ability to anticipate and adapt to changes. One of the most notable aspects of Kimber's career is her success in developing global expansion strategies, particularly in the lucrative Mexican and Chinese markets. This international perspective indicates Kimber's broader approach to business—one that is calculated, focused, and always focused on the long-term impact.
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Finding Your Way at Every Stage in Your Life's Journey While many in the business world often rush to achieve academic credentials early in their careers, Kimber's journey was different. She earned her MBA in her 40s, long after she had already begun making significant contributions to her industry. Kimber's journey is a powerful reminder that success is not tied to a specific timeline. Her experience shows that talent, hard work, and a willingness to take calculated risks can propel you forward, even if you need to follow the traditional path. Kimber's story particularly resonates with those who may feel like they are "late bloomers." Her message is clear: it is never too late to pursue your goals, and you should always appreciate the value of your experiences, no matter when they occur in your life.
Learn more about Kimber Maderazzo here: Kimber L. Maderazzo Profile: linkedin.com/in/kimbermaderazzo Website: c200.org/ Reach out and contact us if you want to become a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance. Let's Talk!
From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I welcomed Ilene Rosenthal, the visionary CEO and founder of Footsteps2Brilliance, an educational technology company redefining early literacy and financial education for students across the U.S. Ilene and I explored how technology is revolutionizing the education sector, enabling transformative learning opportunities that bridge gaps and engage students in innovative ways.
Bringing Education into the Fifth Industrial Revolution
Ilene’s journey led her to create “Learn With Me,” the first transmedia educational program, eventually nominated for an Emmy. This innovation bridged educational media and interactive learning, setting the foundation for Footsteps2Brilliance. With her extensive background, Ilene has scaled her vision nationwide, serving over a million children to date. She has designed the Footsteps2Brilliance platform to be device-agnostic, ensuring accessibility on smartphones, tablets, and computers—essential for reaching diverse student populations in both urban and rural communities.
If you prefer to watch her video, you will love her story. Click here
I you would like to listen to other podcasts about women entrepreneurs creating companies of purpose:
412: Why is the Lipstick Journey Such an Awesome Company Helping Cancer Patients Thrive
406: The Greatest Journey of a Woman Entrepreneur in Mental Health: Dr. Barbara Brown’s Story
Reach out and contact us if you need work on becoming a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In this episode of "On the Brink with Andi Simon," we engage in an insightful conversation with Chantal Cornelius, the founder of Appletree Marketing. Together we delve into the intricate art of marketing strategies tailored for service-based businesses, particularly coaches and consultants. With over two decades of experience in the field, Chantelle's expertise is rooted in a unique approach that emphasizes fostering emotional connections with clients to create lasting and impactful relationships.
Why Should You Foster Emotional Connections in Business? Chantal begins by sharing her personal and professional journey in the marketing world, painting a vivid picture of how she transitioned from a traditional marketer to a strategic advisor focused on helping service-based businesses thrive. Her early years were marked by learning the conventional aspects of marketing and understanding client expectations. However, through years of hands-on experience, Chantal discovered that the most effective way for businesses to resonate with their audiences was through meaningful emotional connections. This revelation led her to refine her approach and establish five key strategies at the core of her work today: Certainty, Connection, Contribution, Growth, and Significance.
You might like to watch the interview here:
Reach out and contact us if you need work on improving your business. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In the latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we're thrilled to feature Anna Warner-Mayes, an inspiring entrepreneur whose company, The Lipstick Journey, is making waves with purpose and profitability. Anna's story is a testament to resilience, passion, and a deep commitment to making a difference. Her journey, marked by multiple cancer diagnoses and countless treatments, is a source of inspiration for all of us. Anna's decision to channel her adversity into something powerful and uplifting, The Lipstick Journey , is a beacon of hope and empowerment. Her company, with its unique 'buy one, give one' lipstick initiative, is a living proof that even in the face of adversity, we can make a difference.
How Can Lipstick Turn Into a Caring Community for Cancer Patients? The Lipstick Journey stands apart from typical beauty brands in its commitment to giving back to a community that has supported Anna through her own battles. Each lipstick purchase goes beyond the buyer to reach a cancer fighter, serving as a reminder of beauty, strength, and connection in the face of struggle. The concept is simple but powerful: each product bought gives a lipstick to someone battling cancer, offering them a small, meaningful moment of self-care and solidarity. As Anna shares on the podcast, 'Lipstick was always a little touch of normalcy for me, a way to brighten my day despite the challenges I faced.' This gesture embodies her desire to uplift others through beauty and kindness, and it's a call for all of us to come together and support those in need.
As Anna has said: "What sets me apart from others is my mission while fighting cancer myself. For every lipstick purchased, one gets donated and when someone purchases, I allow them to choose the recipient. This has been extremely rewarding and heartfelt as some of the recipients send me personal notes. In my mission to help thrivers know they don’t fight alone, I get the support from them knowing I also do not fight alone."
Listen In or watch on YouTube:
Reach out and contact us if you need work on improving your business. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,
Andi SImon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we had the pleasure of sitting down with TaRita Johnson, Senior Vice President of Talent and Diversity at The Right Place, a Michigan-based economic development organization. Throughout her career, TaRita has championed diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) and has helped organizations grow by embracing a more diverse workforce. She shared her insightful journey, revealing diversity's critical role in creating thriving, successful workplaces, and she introduced us to her powerful leadership model: VOICE.
Watch this podcast here
TaRita's Journey: A Commitment to Building Inclusive Communities From the beginning, TaRita's path has been shaped by her passion for promoting equity and opportunity. She shared with us how her early career experiences, paired with her background in education, shaped her belief that talent comes from all walks of life and that it's the role of leaders to create environments where all individuals feel valued and heard.
Having spent years working in roles that intersect leadership, human resources, and diversity efforts, TaRita emphasized how essential it is to build intentional communities within organizations. She explained that DEI is not just a strategy but a core component of business success, enabling organizations to unlock new perspectives, ideas, and approaches. This philosophy has driven her work at The Right Place, where she is tasked with developing programs that help businesses attract, retain, and elevate diverse talent pools.
In her role, TaRita tackles not only the recruitment aspect of diversity but also the equally important work of fostering belonging within an organization. She stressed that companies must focus on hiring individuals from diverse backgrounds and creating inclusive environments where employees feel empowered to contribute their full selves.
VOICE: Vision, Open to New Ideas, Intentional Community, Compassion, Emotional Intelligence One of the most intriguing aspects of our conversation was TaRita's introduction to her leadership philosophy, which she sums up with the acronym VOICE. She explained that This framework serves as a guide for how leaders can foster diversity and inclusion in the workplace while empowering their teams to thrive.
From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In the latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we had the pleasure of speaking with Vicki Bradley, a seasoned leadership coach and the driving force behind many successful leaders, both women and men. Vicki’s work is rooted in the understanding that leadership is not just about authority or strategy—it's about connecting with people on a deeper level through effective communication and emotional intelligence. In our conversation, Vicki shared profound insights into how these elements are not just complementary but essential to effective leadership.
The Secret to Become the Leader You Want to Be One of the key takeaways from our discussion with Vicki was the critical role that communication plays in leadership. She emphasized that clear, authentic communication is the cornerstone of trust-building. When leaders communicate effectively, they are able to inspire, motivate, and engage their teams. This, in turn, fosters an environment where people feel valued, understood, and committed to the shared vision.
The Heart of Leadership: Conversational and Emotional Intelligence But communication alone isn't enough. Vicki argues that to truly excel as a leader, one must couple communication skills with emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence, or EQ, is the ability to recognize, understand, and manage our own emotions, as well as the emotions of others. According to Vicki, leaders who possess high EQ are better equipped to handle the complexities of human behavior in the workplace. They are more empathetic, more adaptable, and better at conflict resolution—skills that are indispensable in today’s dynamic business environments.
Bridging the Gender Divide in Leadership During our conversation, Vicki also touched on the unique challenges and opportunities that arise when working with both women and men to enhance their leadership skills. She noted that while the fundamental principles of good leadership—like communication and EQ—apply to everyone, the ways in which these skills are developed and expressed can differ between genders.
For women, Vicki observed that societal expectations often influence how they communicate and assert themselves in the workplace. Many women are taught to be nurturing and cooperative, which can sometimes be at odds with traditional notions of leadership. Vicki’s coaching helps women to leverage these qualities while also encouraging them to find their voice, assert their ideas confidently, and navigate the complexities of leadership without compromising their authenticity.
On the other hand, men might face different challenges. Vicki explained that some men are conditioned to suppress emotions or view emotional intelligence as a "soft" skill that doesn’t align with leadership. However, she emphasizes that when men embrace EQ, they often find that it enhances their leadership capabilities, particularly in building trust and fostering team cohesion. By helping men understand the value of EQ, Vicki guides them toward a more balanced and effective leadership style.
Watch our interview here From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Award-Winning Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Welcome to our anniversary podcast that celebrates a year of empowering change with our book, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robin Freedman Spizman, and Andi Simon, PhD. This book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, has become an amazing experience. I have often said that every book has its unique signature. A book's energy comes from the reader who opens the book and feels the power of the words, images, and ideas.
Celebrating a Year of Empowering Change with Women Mean Business It’s hard to believe that it’s been a year since Edie Fraser and I launched Women Mean Business, a book that has become more than just a collection of stories; it’s a movement. Over the past year, the book has not only sold extremely well but has also been the catalyst for nearly 70 events. These have sparked meaningful conversations, inspired change, and built connections among women—and even some men—seeking to understand and harness the power of women’s leadership.
You can watch the video of our podcast here: Read more about the authors and the book at www.womenmeanbusinessbook.com.
From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
In a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we spoke with Kathy D'Agostino, a forward-thinking expert passionate about the intersection of AI and human potential. Kathy's approach to AI goes beyond its technical capabilities; she focuses on how AI can be harnessed to uplift and augment what humans can achieve rather than replace them.
AI isn't Replacing You -- Nothing can replace you if you don't let it! The fear that AI is coming for jobs is a persistent narrative that Kathy is eager to dispel. "The first thing I like to address is the fear that AI is coming after your job," she says. "AI is not coming after your job, but humans who know how to use AI will be able to do your job better, faster, and more efficiently. And yes, they may eventually nudge you out of the way, but let's be polite about that."
Kathy's message is clear: AI isn't here to replace people but to help them. By understanding and embracing AI, workers can not only safeguard their roles but also enhance their ability to perform in previously unimaginable ways. AI can transform how people work, making tasks more efficient, freeing time for creative problem-solving, and ultimately strengthening companies. But this can only happen with a willingness to learn and adapt.
You can also watch our interview here
More about Kathy's Perspective on AI and the Future of Work One of the most significant takeaways from Kathy's conversation is her emphasis on learning AI. "Always remember to learn it," she stresses. "Because you're going to be able to do your job better, and you're going to make your company better. And on top of that, you're going to feel better."
This sense of empowerment through learning AI is a central theme of Kathy's philosophy. She believes that instead of seeing AI as a threat, individuals should view it as a tool that can enhance their skills, making them indispensable in their roles. In her view, AI is an extension of human capability—an assistant, not a competitor. By integrating AI into everyday work processes, people can become more effective at what they do, whether that's improving customer service, streamlining administrative tasks, or even uncovering new market opportunities.
From Observation to Innovation,
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Today, I'm thrilled to have Dr. Emily Springer with us, who embodies this idea of thinking, feeling, seeing—and most importantly, doing. Dr. Springer deeply understands AI, ethics, and how these shape our lives, but she goes beyond that to help us understand how to harness AI for good.
As Dr. Springer emphasized, more than learning about AI is required. You have to take action, and that's where the power of change comes in. Change is challenging. As a corporate anthropologist, I've seen firsthand how difficult it is for organizations and individuals to embrace it. But the future is moving quickly, and those unwilling to take action will be left behind. What excites me most about our conversation today is Dr. Springer's focus on inclusive AI—an approach that prioritizes equity, social justice, and improving lives. This philosophy goes hand-in-hand with our work, where I help organizations navigate transformation. Emily, too, helps people understand the often-intimidating world of AI, and she does so in ways that are accessible, not shrouded in technical jargon.
Let me tell you a little more about Dr. Springer. She was recently named one of the 100 brilliant women in AI ethics for 2024, a well-deserved recognition highlighting her commitment to making AI smarter, kinder, fairer, and more inclusive. She is an expert on UNESCO's Women4Ethical AI platform, bringing her expertise to help build a more equitable future. Emily is also the founder of TechnoSocio Advisory, an organization dedicated to inclusive AI consulting, working to develop policies and programs that prioritize social good and improve livelihoods.
And what makes her approach so compelling? It's that she's grounded in reality. While many focus on the technological marvels AI can create, Emily's mission is to understand what it means for the people who will live with these innovations daily. Her company, TechnoSocio Advisory, isn't about pushing AI forward—it's about making sure AI serves the people it's meant to help, especially regarding diversity, equity, and inclusion. We cannot ignore this as AI touches more and more parts of our lives.
If you prefer to watch this podcast, you can find it here:
From Observation to Innovation,
Andi Simon, PhD
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Building a Mental Health Legacy: Dr. Barbara Brown on Empowering Communities Through Purpose-Driven Practice In the latest episode of "On the Brink with Andi Simon," I had the privilege of sitting down with Dr. Barbara J. Brown, a true trailblazer in the mental health field. Dr. Brown is the Founder and CEO of CapitolHill Consortium for Counseling & Consultation (CCCC) and Unicorn Health Care, LLC. With over three decades of experience, she has dedicated her life to building not just a successful practice, but a legacy that prioritizes community well-being, purpose, and significance over profit.
A Purpose-Driven Journey Dr. Brown's journey began with a vision to provide high-quality, accessible, and culturally responsive mental health services to underserved communities. In 2009, she founded CCCC with a mission to offer comprehensive psychological support to children, adolescents, and adults. What started as a solo practice soon evolved into a robust group practice with over 80 staff members, becoming a beacon of hope and healing for countless individuals.
Her success, however, is not merely measured by the growth of her practice but by the impact she has made on the communities she serves. Dr. Brown's approach to mental health is deeply rooted in the belief that true healing comes from addressing the holistic needs of individuals—mind, body, and spirit—and fostering a sense of belonging and support within the community.
If you prefer to watch Dr. Brown's video, please click here.
A Legacy of Leadership and Community Impact Throughout our conversation, it became clear that Dr. Brown’s success is driven by her unwavering commitment to the communities she serves. Her work extends beyond individual therapy sessions; she is actively involved in training the next generation of mental health professionals. CCCC’s recent launch of a Clinical and Community Professional Development Program for early career social workers, counselors, and marriage and family therapists is a testament to her dedication to fostering excellence in the field.
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we explore the groundbreaking work of Denielle Finkelstein and Thyme Sullivan, the dynamic co-founders of Unicorn. Unicorn is a company with purpose, boldly revolutionized period care. Unicorn isn't just a business. It's a movement dedicated to dismantling outdated norms and offering a fresh, empathetic approach to menstruation. Through their innovative dispensers, now found in restroom stalls across the country, they are taking significant strides towards ending period poverty and promoting dignity for all.
The Birth of Unicorn: A Vision Rooted in Empathy and Innovation
Denielle and Thyme's journey began in the high-stakes world of corporate America, where they both enjoyed successful careers. However, as they climbed the corporate ladder, they found themselves searching for deeper meaning in their work. They realized their true passion lay in addressing a critical yet often overlooked issue: the lack of accessible, high-quality period care products.
With a blend of entrepreneurial spirit, innovative thinking, and a deep sense of empathy, Denielle and Thyme co-founded Unicorn. Their mission was clear: to create a line of better, organic period products that were easily accessible to everyone. But they didn't stop at just offering superior products—they wanted to revolutionize the entire period care experience.
Listen in or watch our podcast with Denielle Finkelstein and Thyme Sullivan, click here Danielle Finkelstein and Thyme Sullivan Are Revolutionizing Period Care
In today's rapidly evolving business environment, traditional leadership models are becoming increasingly obsolete. The command-and-control approach, once the hallmark of successful leadership, is now often seen as a relic of the past. With the rise of concepts like Quiet Quitting, The Great Resignation, and the friction surrounding remote work, leaders are faced with challenges that require a more nuanced, empathetic approach. In a recent interview on the On the Brink with Andi Simon podcast, Melissa Robinson-Winemiller delved into the critical role of empathy and Emotional Intelligence (EQ) in modern leadership.
Melissa Robinson-Winemiller's Expertise can Help You Become that Great, Empathetic Leader Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, an expert in leadership development and an advocate for empathy-driven leadership, brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to the table. With over 30 years of leadership experience, she has seen firsthand how the lack of empathy can derail even the most promising careers and business endeavors. Her journey into empathy and EQ coaching began after losing a career to what she describes as "unempathic leadership." This experience propelled her to explore how empathy could transform leadership and business outcomes.
Melissa's dedication to this cause is evident in her impressive educational background. She holds an MBA and a Master of Data Analytics, providing her with the tools to support her arguments with data-driven proof and sound business cases. She is currently pursuing a second doctorate in Interdisciplinary Leadership, with a dissertation focusing on Empathy in Leadership. This commitment to understanding and promoting empathy as a core leadership competency is further bolstered by her certifications in Change Management (ACMP/Prosci), the Society for Human Resource Management (CP), and Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice (DEI&J) from Cornell University.
Empathy is Really about Becoming Better Human Beings Melissa's message is clear: the future of leadership lies in evolution, not extinction. Leaders who are willing to develop their empathy and emotional intelligence will be better equipped to navigate the complexities of the modern workplace. They will be able to build stronger, more resilient teams and create a culture of collaboration and innovation.
In conclusion, the interview with Melissa Robinson-Winemiller serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of empathy in leadership. As the business world continues to evolve, leaders must recognize that empathy is not a weakness but a strength that can drive success. By embracing empathy and emotional intelligence, leaders can create a more inclusive, productive, and innovative workplace where everyone has the opportunity to thrive.
This interview is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of leadership and the role that empathy will play in shaping it. As Melissa so aptly puts it, "The more we all work together to be better human beings, the more we all have to gain."
If you prefer to watch our video podcast with Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, click here.
Welcome to another inspiring episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon. In this episode, we had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Dionne Baker, a remarkable woman entrepreneur making waves in the organic food industry with her company, DeeBee's Organics. Dr. Baker's journey is not just about building a successful business but about creating a healthier, more sustainable world for our children.
Dr. Baker's story began most delightfully. Inspired by her child's idea to create tea popsicles, she set out to develop healthy popsicle snacks that kids would love. This simple yet powerful idea led to the birth of DeeBee's Organics. Today, DeeBee's offers a range of certified organic products that are mindfully sweetened and never compromise on taste or joy. Their commitment to quality and health has made DeeBee's a beloved brand among parents and children alike.
DeeBee's Organics is not just another company but a certified B Corporation. This certification is a testament to Dr. Baker's commitment to doing business differently. While traditional businesses measure success primarily through sales and profits, Dr. Baker is equally concerned with the lives she impacts and the societal changes she helps drive. DeeBee's mission extends beyond providing healthy snacks; it is about contributing to a more sustainable and equitable world.
In our latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we had the pleasure of hosting Lisen Stromberg, an award-winning author, speaker, and expert on leadership transformation. We delved into her groundbreaking new book, "Intentional Power," and explored the seismic shift in business leadership in the U.S. Written with two other amazing leadership experts, JeanAnn Nichols, and Corey Jones, with extensive research into the changes taking place in our society today, this is generationally-driven change in how people lead and follow. Intentional Power is about changing our minds about how to lead, guide, facilitate, enable (all different words about leadership) others get to where they and we need to go.
Lisen's extensive leadership background and commitment to fostering meaningful change shine through in her work. With a wealth of experience spanning corporate roles, entrepreneurship, and advocacy, she has become a leading voice in redefining effective Leadership in today's dynamic business environment. She watches intentional leaders thrive, mobilizing the next generation of our workforce to aspire to higher purpose and profits.
The Move to Intentional Power: the HEART® Model The major drivers of these changes come from the way people value the actions of others. Lisen's research found that leaders using Intentional Power do several things exceptionally well. They offer a new model of leadership, the HEARTI® model, built on six core competencies: Humility, Empathy, Accountability, Resiliency, Transparency, and Inclusivity.
During our conversation, Lisen highlighted a significant transformation in leadership styles. Traditional command-and-control hierarchies are giving way to more collaborative, facilitative, and supportive management approaches. This shift is not just a trend but a necessary evolution as today's workforce seeks more than just power and results. Employees are looking for significance, purpose, and meaning in their work. Most importantly, business is moving from shareholder capitalism to stakeholder capitalism.
Our interview with Lisen Stromberg is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of Leadership. Her insights offer a compelling roadmap for leaders seeking to impact their organizations positively and beyond. Please tune in to On the Brink with Andi Simon to hear more about Lisen's journey and her vision for a more inclusive and purpose-driven approach to Leadership.
If you prefer to watch the On the Brink with Andi Simon Podcast, you can find Lisen Stromberg's video here: Thanks for joining us. Watch our other podcasts on https://www.simonassociates.net/category/podcast/
Welcome to another exciting episode of "On the Brink with Andi Simon!" In this episode, we are thrilled to have John M. Fisher, an extraordinary management development and soft skill trainer who also holds the title of chartered psychologist. His expertise in understanding and navigating change is unparalleled, making him a valuable resource for our discussion today. As a corporate anthropologist, I always look for individuals who genuinely grasp the challenges of embracing change and making it a friend rather than a foe. John Fisher is one such individual who has dedicated his career to helping people navigate the complexities of personal and professional transformation.
John's unique approach, which is centered around maximizing personal understanding, has proven to be highly effective in helping individuals adapt to new demands in their business environments and personal lives. One of the most impactful tools John has developed is the Change Curve, a robust model that illustrates the stages people must go through to let go of the past and envision a new future. This model is instrumental in helping individuals and organizations understand the emotional and psychological journey involved in change, providing a clear pathway to move forward.
From Observation to Innovation,
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net
Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
I'm excited to share our latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, where I interview exceptional individuals to help others "get off the brink." This is actually our 400th episode and to focus on inspiring wellness is awesome, and reflects our committment to help people see, feel, and think in new ways so they can soar again and again.
This episode features the extraordinary Dr. Renette Dallas, a true powerhouse in health and wellness. I think of Dr. Dallas as a Wellness Warrior leading a Healthy Living Revolution. She is inspiring wellness in each of us. We should all join her! Get your TRUE POP popcorn ready for our podcast.
If you prefer to watch the On the Brink with Andi Simon Podcast, you can find Dr. Dallas's video here: Dr. Dallas is a naturopathic doctor (N.D.), minister, author, lecturer, certified fitness trainer, and raw food chef. With a rich architecture and civil engineering background and a U.S. Air Force veteran, her diverse expertise makes her a dynamic force for change. She's best known for her innovative product, TRUE POP, an organic snack that embodies her preventive, holistic care philosophy.
Her life's journey into wellness was triggered when she contracted tuberculosis and found that all the treatments were failing her. Dr. Dallas is a multifaceted expert in holistic health, combining her extensive knowledge as a naturopathic doctor, minister, author, lecturer, certified fitness trainer, and raw food chef. Her nutritional and herbal detoxification and healing expertise has positioned her as a leading preventive, holistic care voice. Throughout our conversation, Dr. Dallas shared her journey and her mission to empower individuals, especially women, to take charge of their health and well-being through informed choices about food and lifestyle.
Inspiring Wellness in Women
Much of our discussion focused on how Dr. Dallas inspires women to take charge of their health and well-being. She recognizes women's unique challenges, particularly in balancing various roles and responsibilities. Her holistic approach offers practical solutions that women can integrate into their daily lives. Dr. Dallas's work is not just about health, but about empowering women to prioritize their well-being and make informed choices about their health.
Conclusion As a corporate anthropologist and advocate for women entrepreneurs, I found Dr. Dallas's story incredibly inspiring. She exemplifies how women leaders can bring innovative solutions to big problems. Tune in to this episode to discover how Dr. Dallas is leading the charge in healthcare reform and making a significant, inspiring impact.
Join us on this journey of empowerment and transformation!
You can learn more about Dr. Dallas and her products at Life by Dallas and check out TRUE POP on Amazon.
In a recent episode of our podcast, “On the Brink with Andi Simon,” I had the pleasure of speaking with Laura Grondin, an exceptional leader in the world of business and innovation. Laura is the CEO, chairman, and owner of a privately held industrial products company with two subsidiaries: Bingham & Taylor and Hartford Technologies. These companies supply diverse products, primarily to the water, gas, and automotive markets. Our conversation was all about how she has been able to navigate tradition and innovation.
Visiting Laura's website is a journey into the heart of an enterprise that brilliantly merges tradition with forward-thinking innovation. Her companies, with a rich history spanning 175 years, epitomize the power of adapting to change while holding onto core values. This blend of the old and the new is not just a business strategy; it's a philosophy that permeates every aspect of their operations.
How to Navigate Tradition and Innovation in Sustaining a Business? Laura's leadership showcases the essence of what it means to be an innovative, future-thinking leader. She understands the dynamics of organizations that thrive. Her ability to innovate and see the world as it evolves is extraordinary. This perspective is crucial, especially in an era where the future is uncertain, and many are apprehensive about what lies ahead. Laura shows us how you can navigate tradition and innovation, and build a better business. As Babe Ruth once said, "Yesterday's homerun will not win tomorrow's game." This quote perfectly encapsulates the spirit of Laura's approach: you can be good today, but thriving tomorrow requires a whole new set of skills and vision.
By 2005, Bingham & Taylor had already made significant strides towards gender diversity, becoming a 51% female-owned company. In 2021, Laura Grondin took over 100% ownership, ushering in a new era for women-owned natural gas and water businesses. V Technologies is a testament to the power of merging deep industry knowledge with modern innovation. It's fascinating to see how Laura's leadership has transformed these companies, pushing the boundaries of what's possible in traditionally male-dominated industries.
Laura's influence extends beyond her business ventures. She is a prominent figure in the sailing community, serving as a member of the US Sailing Board of Directors and holding various positions, including chair of the international Melges 24 Class Association. Her passion for sailing has twice seen her compete at high levels, earning her nominations for the prestigious Rolex Yachtsman of the Year award. Laura's involvement in sailing reflects her competitive spirit and commitment to excellence, qualities that she brings to her business endeavors.
Moreover, Laura tremendously advocates for women in business, particularly in STEM fields. Her involvement with organizations like C200, which supports female CEOs, underscores her dedication to empowering the next generation of women leaders. Through her work, Laura is paving the way for women in STEM and business, breaking down barriers and inspiring others to follow in her footsteps.
How can "Sailing" Build a Mind-Set that Works So Well in Business? Let's think of the metaphor: we should all be trying to navigate tradition and innovation in our business. From my perspective, as a corporate anthropologist who works with organizations that need to adapt to fast-changing times, I was thrilled to share Laura's story. It is a powerful reminder of the importance of adaptability and forward-thinking in today's business landscape. Her ability to blend tradition with innovation sets her apart as a leader who respects the past and embraces the future with open arms.
In our podcast, Laura shared insights into how her companies are innovating and creating new ways of doing things. This spirit of innovation is evident in every aspect of their operations, from product development to customer engagement. It's clear that under Laura's leadership, Bingham & Taylor and Hartford Technologies are not just keeping up with the times; they are setting the pace.
The Power of Women Leaders as Successful CEOs Laura's journey is a testament to the power of women leaders in driving change and innovation. Her achievements inspire aspiring female CEOs, demonstrating that with vision, dedication, and a willingness to embrace change, it's possible to lead and succeed in any industry.
Laura's story is not just about her achievements; it's about the broader impact of women leaders in transforming industries and driving progress. I encourage you to visit her website to learn more about her companies and their groundbreaking work. Laura Grondin’s journey is a shining example of visionary CEOs shaping the future, one innovative step at a time.
You can also watch our podcast on YouTube
Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I am so delighted you have joined us for this podcast with Donny Willis where we share his own inspirational advice for how to intentionally build a better life.
In this enlightening podcast episode, Donny Willis is a wonderful guest, who you may recognize as the "butter man" from the iconic 2019 Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Donny shares his remarkable journey of personal transformation, a story that resonates with many of us navigating our own life transitions. Donny is a pastor and the founder of a thriving church community in White Plains, NY. In this podcast, Donny and I dig deep into his own life’s journey and how he helps others intentionally build a better life for themselves and those around them. You might also like to read Donny's book, "Good, Butter, Best, From Dream to Reality."
What are Those Universal Themes of Life Transitions? Throughout the episode, Donny Willis and I delve into the universal themes of life transitions, the complexities of decision-making, and the pivotal role of emotional intelligence in adapting to change. Donny underscores the importance of seizing new opportunities as they arise and the transformative power of building and nurturing relationships to support personal growth and community resilience. We often forget that we are in control. Yes, we can intentionally build a better life if we think about our own personal story and continuously build that story around self-improvement.
Donny also shares with us his seven life-lessons that each of us can apply to create a better life for ourselves and those we care about.
If you prefer to watch the On the Brink with Andi Simon Podcast, you can find Donny Willis's video here: Thanks for joining us. Read the entire script on the blog page at https://www.simonassociates.net/category/podcast/
From Observation to Innovation,
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn
Hear how Traca Savadogo found a new path to transform her life. Welcome to "On the Brink with Andi Simon," the podcast where we delve into the transformative power of self-discovery and personal growth. I'm your host, Andi Simon, and today, I am thrilled to bring you an inspiring conversation with Traca Savadogo, a renowned relationship strategist who specializes in guiding individuals on their journey to find themselves. In this episode, we'll explore Traca's fascinating journey of self-discovery, a journey that has transformed her from a place of struggle to becoming a beacon of empowerment for contless others. Traca's story is not just about overcoming obstacles; it's about embracing the power within oneself to rewrite the narrative of one's life, a power that can lead to profound transformation and joy.
Join us as we listen to Traca's journey of self-discovery. Traca's path to becoming a sought-after relationship strategist was challenging. Like many of us, she experienced doubt, uncertainty, and despair. However, through these experiences, she uncovered a profound truth: the importance of reflecting on one's own story to transform it into one where you are the hero, not the victim. One of the pivotal moments in Traca's journey was her realization of the value of connecting with strangers. As a successful TEDx speaker, she shared her insights on "Why You Should Regularly Talk with Strangers," a topic that resonated deeply with audiences around the world. Through her experiences of stepping outside her comfort zone and engaging with unfamiliar faces, Traca discovered a wealth of wisdom and perspective that enriched her life in ways she never imagined.
She had to embrace vulnerability. Should you? During our conversation, Traca opens up about the profound impact of embracing vulnerability and authenticity in her own life. She shares how she embarked on a journey of rediscovering herself, shedding layers of self-doubt and fear to reveal the bold, brave, and ultimately happy woman others saw in her all along. Through her work as a relationship strategist, Traca empowers individuals to navigate the complexities of self-discovery with courage and resilience. She emphasizes the importance of cultivating a deep self-awareness and acceptance, recognizing that true transformation begins from within.
As we delve deeper into Traca's story, we uncover invaluable insights and practical strategies for anyone seeking to embark on their journey of self-discovery. From overcoming limiting beliefs to embracing vulnerability and cultivating meaningful connections, Traca offers a wealth of wisdom that will inspire and empower listeners to embrace their journey of personal growth and transformation. Join us as we embark on a transformative journey with Traca Savadogo, exploring the power of self-discovery, resilience, and the profound impact of rewriting your story. This is "On the Brink with Andi Simon," and I'm delighted to have you with us on this incredible journey of growth and possibility.
Watch and listen to our conversation here Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
"Belonging to the Brand" sets forth Mark Schaefer's thinking about Innovative Marketing and Community Building. Let me introduce you to Mark Schaefer, who needs no introduction. With a career spanning decades, Mark has been a trailblazer, a thought leader, and a guide through the ever-shifting terrain of marketing and branding. From the dawn of social media to the rise of influencer marketing, Mark has not only witnessed these seismic shifts but has also been at the forefront, deciphering trends, and charting courses for success.
But what sets Mark apart isn't just his keen insight into what's happening now—it's his uncanny ability to anticipate what's coming next. While others may struggle to keep pace with the rapid evolution of our industry, Mark has a knack for spotting emerging trends and technologies before they hit the mainstream. In this podcast, we will tap into that foresight, exploring what's happening today and what lies on the horizon.
Megatrends Shaping the Future of Marketing A core theme we'll explore is bringing people together and building new communities and shared experiences. In an increasingly fragmented and polarized world, Mark understands the power of connection and is passionate about helping brands forge deeper, more meaningful relationships with their audiences.
But this podcast isn't just about theory and speculation—it's about practical insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own marketing efforts. So, whether you're a seasoned marketer looking to stay ahead of the curve or a newcomer eager to learn from the best, I invite you to join us on this journey through the ever-changing marketing and branding landscape. Together, we'll be navigating tomorrow—and shaping the future of our industry along the way.
The Most Human Company Wins
As we wrapped up our conversation, it became clear that despite the technological advancements, the core of marketing remains unchanged: the most human company wins. In a world where AI is becoming ubiquitous, maintaining a human-centric approach is what will set successful brands apart.
To learn more about Innovative Marketing, we recommend these: Podcast: Are you Ready for the Marketing Rebellion by Mark Schaefer
Podcast: Are You Ready for the Next Data-Driven-Digital Marketing Strategy? by Patrick Van Gorder
Podcast: Fran Biderman-Gross—Feeling Frustrated With Business? Maybe It Is Time For A New Marketing Strategy?
Hear how Myrna Soto combined her great people skills with IT and business. Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon, where we delve deep into the minds of industry leaders who are shaping the future. In this episode, I'm thrilled to bring a remarkable individual who has managed to shape businesses blending her people skills with her high-tech wisdom. Please allow me to introduce you to Myrna Soto. Myrna is Founder and CEO of Apogee Executive Advisors, an advisory firm providing strategic consulting the areas of Technology Risk, Cybersecurity, Technology Integrations, Digital Transformation, and Enterprise Risk Management.
Are there lessons you can learn to propel your own success in IT and Business? How can women thrive in the complex world of IT and Business?
Watch our conversation here Myrna Soto is featured in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success
How to connect with Myrna
You can reach Myrna on LinkedIn or through her website ForgePointCap.com.
To learn more about this topic, we recommend these podcasts and blog: * Eisha Tierney Armstrong—With The Rise Of AI, Professional Services Are Turning Into Products. Are You Ready? * Lorraine Hariton—How Can You Build A Better Workplace For Women? * 10 Tips To Empower Women In Male-Dominated IT Industry
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Esther Aguilera is one of the 102 amazing women leaders in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success,
In a world where success is often portrayed as a linear path, Esther Aguilera's journey stands out. Born to Mexican immigrants, she defied the odds and rose to significant positions in Washington, in non-profits, and in business. . Her story is a testament to the power of determination, self-belief, and the unwavering pursuit of one's dreams, inspiring us all to embrace our own unique paths to success. Welcome to "On the Brink with Andi Simon," where we delve deep into the stories of remarkable individuals who have defied odds and shattered barriers to carve their path to success. In this episode, we have the privilege of sitting down with Esther Aguilera, a trailblazer whose journey took her first to numerous positions in Washington, D.C., to the helm of the Latino Corporate Directors Association. Her openness to new ventures and a willingness to try unfamiliar leadership roles have not only transformed her life but have also paved the way for countless others.
Esther's journey is one defined by resilience and tenacity. Growing up as the daughter of Mexican immigrants, she learned early on the value of hard work and perseverance. However, her unwavering confidence and belief in herself truly set her apart. As you listen to our conversation, consider our thoughts about "imposter syndrome." Throughout her career, Esther grappled with feelings of being an imposter - a notion that she was never fully competent, yet always completely confident. However, this blend of humility and self-assurance propelled her forward, allowing her to navigate the corporate landscape with grace and determination.
A profound commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion lies at the heart of Esther's journey. Throughout her career, she has been a tireless advocate for Latino representation, from building diverse teams to expanding the seats held by Latinos in corporate boardrooms, recognizing the immense value that diverse perspectives bring. Under her leadership, the Latino Corporate Directors Association rapidly expanded, becoming the premier resource for Latino talent on corporate boards. Esther's unwavering dedication to championing diversity and inclusion is a powerful reminder of the importance of representation and opportunity for all of us. You will hear a woman who knew that Latinos were not moving into leadership positions, and she would help them open doors and find pathways to change these limitations.
Embark on a transformative journey with Esther Aguilera, a leader whose story resonates with us all. Her journey inspires us to embrace our strengths, confront our doubts, and forge our path with unwavering confidence. Through her reflections, insights, and profound wisdom, Esther invites us to challenge the status quo, embrace our authenticity, and dare to dream boldly. Join us as we learn from her experiences and find inspiration for our own journeys.
Watch and listen to our conversation here How to connect with Esther You can reach Esther on LinkedIn
Or, email her at estheraguilera@me.com
Additional resources for you * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD. Read more about it at http://www.womenmeanbusinessbook.com * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants * Our book website: www.andisimon.com
Read the transcript of our podcast here. (Edited for readability) Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. However, if you're stuck or stalled. Our job is to bring you interesting people. And I have a wonderful woman here today who's going to help you see, feel and think in some new ways because you don't have a story like hers. And she is an extraordinary role model. So how you can overcome life, life's adversities and rise. We're going to talk about a bunch of things that are going to touch you as she has touched me, and I think this is such an exciting time. Esther Aguilera is here with us today, and I am very excited because she is a part of our new book, Women Mean Business. Esther comes to us with the perspective of somebody who has had a journey, and I'm going to have her tell you about it, but let me introduce her.
She is currently a senior advisor at Altura Capital. Previously, she was president and CEO of the Latino Corporate Directors Association, and she built the first national network of Latino CEOs, corporate directors and C-level leaders. She oversaw the organization's rapid expansion to become the premier resource for Latino talent primed for the boardroom to accelerate the conversation of Latino inclusion in America's boardrooms.
She's a thoughtful, transformational leader, and she's known for driving impact and results. She is a two-time chief executive and a two time executive director, and she comes to us with a 32- year track record, executing strategic business plans and leading high performance teams. And she's going to tell you more.
As you know, my desire is for them to tell you about their journey. It gives you a context for understanding the challenges that she's facing and the way she's overcoming them. But she also tells us that she brings a deep experience and understanding of the intersection between the charitable, business and government sectors. And I think this is really exciting. She's worked with members of Congress, cabinet members, corporate CEOs and directors, nonprofits, and associations, and she's just a superb-powerful person. Welcome, Esther. Thank you for being with me today.
Esther Aguilera: It is a great pleasure to be with you, Andy.
Andi Simon: Tell the listeners and the viewers, who is Esther? You tell me your story. And I think it's a very important one to set the context for your own journey, the challenges you've overcome and how you thrive, and the joy you bring to others in the process. Who's Esther?
Esther Aguilera: Thank you for having me. And thank you for the question. So, you know, as you mentioned, I have had the privilege of working for our nation's most powerful leaders from members of Congress, and cabinet members. I've organized meetings with the US President and worked with the top leaders in the nonprofit space, corporate space, and working with corporate directors. But my path was not a typical one. My family moved to the US from Mexico when I was four years old, so I'm an immigrant. We were actually undocumented when we first came. It's a long story, but needless to say, I'm the proud daughter of a landscape laborer and a garment worker. So, we had a very humble upbringing. But we clearly strived to do our best and contribute and get a good education, which is what landed me in college and also, I studied my first public policy. It's not something that growing up, I would have ever seen myself doing. I didn't even know what it was. By the way, when I moved, I moved to Washington, D.C. after college, and my parents didn't really understand what I did, and neither did my family. But here I was in Washington, D.C. We moved here in 1990 right after college. And that's where oh my gosh, so many worlds opened up. So many opportunities and a lot of scary things. I mean, good, scary things, but new things that really opened up all new apertures and experiences and opportunities again, that I enjoy today.
Andi Simon: But, when you shared with me your story, you said public policy wasn't something you're familiar with. How did you get to Washington?
Esther Aguilera: Well, I was very, very lucky. First I was visiting Washington, D.C., and I had a professor who I contacted and I said, hey, I'm in the nation's capital. And he said, well, you need to meet with some of the premier organizations. And he made some connections for me that I was literally just planning to have some informational meetings and then travel back to California to start looking for a job. And I took the plunge. I had some great meetings. The first organization was a National Council of La Raza, which is the premier today known as Latinos, U.S. and it's a public policy organization. I went for the informational interview, and they offered me a job. And I was just one in shock and thinking, oh my gosh, I’m moving to Washington, D.C. Is that something for me? But you know what? I took the plunge. And this was another great theme that I like to talk about is I've had some different pivots and new areas and new places. And what's been wonderful was really embracing new challenges has been how I have been able to broaden my horizons and find new opportunities.
Andi Simon: Yes. Good. But it is interesting because as we think about it, your intention wasn't to come to Washington and get a job. It was to go discover; you were curious. You're an explorer and you really didn't know what the possibilities were. It was an interesting opportunity for you to land something unexpectedly that has turned into a whole career trajectory for you. And I have a hunch several times during your career, things sort of popped in you and you thought that could be interesting. Where did your career go from that first destination?
Esther Aguilera: Well, I was lucky to land a job on Capitol Hill. I worked in the US Congress and became the executive director of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. I have had leadership roles since my mid 20s. That's what I love about Capitol Hill is you get great opportunities early and you are contributing a great deal. And so, that came about also with mentors who put my name in the hat and said, hey, I think Esther would be a great candidate for this. When I was already working on the Hill and when they asked me, is this something you're interested in, things went through my mind of doubting. Am I ready for this? That’s such a big challenge, such a big role. But I raised my hand and said, yes, I will take on the challenge and contribute everything I've got.
Andi Simon: It's interesting because that's one of your five wisdoms. Raise your hand. It puts yourself out there for new opportunities. You don't really know what's happening and what is going to happen to you, but you're comfortable enough in yourself to say, of course I can.
I don't know where that is and I don't know how we're going to do it, but somehow I know that I can succeed at some level. What are people expecting? Were they clear about their expectations or they just trusted you to rise to the occasion?
Esther Aguilera: With every role and pivot that I've had, and I will go into some of those as well, there's always been one. I already had some great ground training in policy and writing and research. And then I worked as a legislative assistant. So, I had some of the base groundwork. And then you take that and the important thing what I tell young people is don't go into your next role because you meet 100% of the experience and expectations. You look at a job description and you want to have space to grow, but you've got the foundation and you take that and you build on it and that's okay to ask for help. It's okay to feel vulnerable to say hey, I can do 50, 60% of this, and I'm going to need some guidance. I can do the rest with that guidance. And it's important to feel that you can be both honest with yourself and know that you can do it. Don't let that hold you back.
Andi Simon: Well, I couldn't agree more. We can compare career tracks, but it is interesting listening to people talk today about needing mentors or sponsors. I never had any. Did you have them along your journey?
Esther Aguilera: Well, when we talk about sponsors, these are people who put your name in the hat for you. And so my professor who first said, hey, I'm going to make this introduction. And then, of course, you step right in., I had a member of Congress put my name in the hat. Another mentor of mine, a male mentor who said this is someone who could take on that role. So I think they saw something in me that I probably wouldn't have raised my hand. So those sponsorships are so important. And then, down the line.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, it's interesting because you didn't even go looking for them to sponsor you or mentor you. You just were good at what you were doing and kept showing up, curious, whatever the attributes were that they were looking for. And there you were. And that was really what's exciting about it is that you don't have to be intentionally groveling up that ladder. You can just be really good at what you do. People see it and then offer you something and you say, I can do that. And then you rise. And it's very exciting.
Esther Aguilera: I agree, but I also think it's important. There are so many lessons learned on the journeys that I'm an open book and I love to share. And that while sponsorships are important, let's not rely on them and make sure one keeps your resume circulating and raise your hand. And oftentimes, making a transition is really tough sometimes. But keep your eyes and ears open. Keep opportunities open even when you love what you're doing. It's okay. You're not being disrespectful to your current employer. You are inquisitive and want to grow. I'm in the book Women Mean Business and my wisdoms have been around again and be open to new opportunities, new frontiers because that is how you learn and grow.
Andi Simon: So one of the things that you and I talked about was a theme. There are two themes that I want to make sure that we dig into. One is about where Latinos are today. But the one just prior to that is that we mentioned the fact that you were the child of immigrants, and you have led some of the most consequential organizations in the US. Did you bring a particular perspective that was extremely valuable? Were you just a young person coming out of college? How did you blend all of this so that you were you? Because I have a hunch of those who were sponsoring you, mentoring you, saw something unique in how you saw the world. Something that you can share. Is it something you can reflect on?
Esther Aguilera: Some of my early areas of motivation were really looking at women and how there were two standards for what women can do versus men. And I saw this growing up, and I always kind of fought against it or thought against it and said, why is there that difference? That was one of the things that just kind of kept me going. But, at the end of the day, I was always very impact oriented. I always wanted to leave a mark and a contribution. We all have superpowers. I've had opportunities after working on Capitol Hill. I went to work at the Department of Energy, running the procurement office. And in that role, I came in to lead a team of federal employees and gave them real purpose. We reorganized the office and built a high performing team that was very impactful, and mission driven. It was a little lost, but the Secretary of Energy put me in charge and said, I want you to fix this. And it's where I discovered some of my superpowers. I was given that opportunity, I already knew that I could drive change on the legislative front. And I was thinking, how am I going to drive change here? And it's through people and it's through leadership and promoting people for leadership. And in that role, I later went to run a larger group, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute, which is an internship fellowship organization for young people to get experience on Capitol Hill. I had so many doors open to me since with my experience, I wanted to make sure others had that as well. And so this organization, I grew it from $4 million to $10 million. And at every stage just transformed and built an even better, solid foundation for the organization, for the future. There again, it's about building a high performing team and impact. So, I found that my superpower is driving growth and impact. But my secret weapon is building high performing teams where people can contribute. And we find ways of finding where they can excel and contribute and grow to the overall having a clear purpose mission that everyone has a role to play in.
Andi Simon: I have several leadership academies I've been running for many years for clients. And one of the things we talk about is that a leader really needs other followers. A leader can't do anything alone. And so, as I'm listening to you, I'm saying you have some magic to empower and enable and engage others so they can rise higher than where they are growing. They don't have to move up a ladder. They need to grow personally in their skills, their confidence that you said it so well, their purpose, their mission to have strong values and to see how their actions are purpose driven and they can actually become part of a team that's delivering extraordinary results. And I have a hunch you had great pleasure when you were doing that, building those teams, and building those people. Right?
Esther Aguilera: That really was. That's when you find it's your superpower when you really enjoy doing it. And of course, I had another pivot to then start an organization with corporate directors. And we formed the Latino Corporate Directors Association, and that I was able to start from scratch and grow it tenfold to become the premier organization that really elevates because it's so important to have leadership roles and to have decision making roles and have a seat at the table. Because if you don't have a seat at the table, you don't matter, that's the bottom line. And it's part of important work that I'm really proud of now doing even more after having built a really solid foundation, all of the pillars that lead towards the impact and the team there to then take it on.
Andi Simon: Well, all of this then leads to the community. You and I spoke about how the Latino community developed, grown? Where is it going? How do we get access to positions of power and equal pay for Latinas and Latinos? You've had a wonderful solo career and now you're pulling along lots of others to be able to actually optimize their success as well. Share with us a little of your perspective. What do you see happening?
Esther Aguilera: Well, first, this has always been the second largest demographic in the US. For 32 years have been working to advance the Latino community in the US from all angles, from legislative leadership and education across the board. And I have to say that in the 90s, we were called, and even the 80s, The Sleeping Giant because it was a large group, but still was more behind the scenes. And I don't think we have advanced as much as we can, and we need to. That's why I'm such a believer in having Latinas and Latinos in positions of power and authority because you have to have both a bottom up from grassroots kind of building to leadership as well and have those important roles across the board. This has to be in government and whether it's in the private sector, in the largest corporations of the country and so that's an important ingredient. Today, Latinos are 62 million Americans. This is close to 20% of the population and a GDP of nearly 3.5 trillion, which is the same as a fifth largest country. It's massive and yet we're still not in the positions of power, and we're still, especially Latinas, are least paid. In fact, the pay gap is the lowest for Native American women and Latinas. Native American women earn $0.51 to the dollar that men make in the same jobs. And Latinos are $0.54. Other groups come in and that hasn't changed much in the past 20 years. So there's still that huge gap. The boardrooms and corporate boardrooms, Latinos are the single group of any other women's group, any other demographic group with the least amount of board seats and representation in that boardroom, Latinos and Latinos alike. I think that's why my philosophy here is that and this is why we started the Latino Corporate Directors Association that you can't complain about. You can't say, well, it's the search firms is this and we keep hearing we can't find qualified Latinos for the boardroom. You have to point the finger this way and do something about it. So that's why a group of pioneering corporate directors launched it and then brought me on board to build it because we have to be the owners of our destiny.
And we can't wait for others to solve these things.
Andi Simon: It's easy to complain and it's easier to sort of look at history, but I think you're already beginning to see some small steps to move the needle a little bit. Anything that you can share that is exciting to you? Do you want to share your superpowers with others? Do you see opportunities opening up? You said we're still the sleeping giant. You do have a whole lot of people here in this country ready to do some really exciting things. What are you thinking?
Esther Aguilera: Oh my gosh, we have so much talent. In every sector and every industry, it's about really showcasing and lifting up the talent that's there so that we take away the narrative and excuse. We can find them right there. It’s groundbreaking with Latino corporate directors. I'm also advising Alpha, which is the largest Latino professional association in the country. It is the oldest and largest with over 115,000 members around the country. And here is an organization that we already have so much, membership and visibility within the community. But it's about letting others in other communities know, here's where you can find the pipeline and the talent for anything you need, and lifting up and showcasing profiles and taking away again that narrative that there's plenty of talent, there's more to grow. There is potential and talent there. And we're here to help make it easy for you to find it.
Andi Simon: You know, I'm thinking about two situations. When I mentioned to you there was a woman at Washington University, when I spoke there on Women Mean Business, who had gotten a scholarship to a high profile Latino woman who had gone to college, the first from her family. She had gotten a wonderful scholarship to a very high profile private school, and then had gotten into Washington University with a big scholarship and was very lonely. And when we were talking, she said, I'm all alone. And it's very hard to have to be here without a community of others like me who understand the journey I've been on, and I'm not quite sure where I'm going. Am I going back to make money for my family and my community? It was the most profound. And then I gave a talk down in Houston and Arturo Lopez, a Vistage chair that I knew brought in a whole group of Latinos, all of whom are struggling to be heard. And I think that the nature of both media and what we talk about, how we celebrate, where we get the positive superpowers and how we acknowledge it, needs something to boost it. And as you and I were talking about Alpha and others, it's not a bad time to think through how to rally other Latino to help build a network of mentors for others. She said, I don't have a role model. I have no one. I've had no role model through most of my education, and I felt I was amazed at her boldness and her bravery, but I also knew that she was going to have to work hard to find some community to belong to that she could lift herself up. So there's a real need. We're going to rise. We need to have others help us. And I've heard that so often from the folks like yourself in our book, who said, if I rise, I lift others. They basically can't do it without others. That's why I said to who's your sponsor? Who's your mentor? And how do I get help? And they're not even women. They were all guys. And so there's a real need out there. So now with Altura Capital, are you seeing things that are shareable? You're in the private equity world now.
Esther Aguilera: Yes. My latest pivot, what’s exciting about my pivot to private equity was one in every one of these paths, I have honed in more around my brand, and my brand has been to really lift up others. And the firm that I work with is Latina led, Latina founder, CEO, private equity. Her name is Monica Mantilla. And I always say she's probably the pioneer Latina who was founder, CEO and managing partner of a private equity firm for 18 years. The way that she invests in companies and again, private equity, you already have to have a profitable company that's going that we can invest in to grow. But, she also has a social impact mission. She invests in low, moderate-income communities that have great businesses and can invest in them to then also create better jobs, better pay, better benefits, and they track that impact. So here we have a firm that's not only creating value for shareholder, for investors and for the company, but also an impact and community. That is my brand. So I always have to feel really strong and passionate about what I'm pushing, what I'm driving, and who I'm working with and for. And so I found each step of the way has always been that for me. I always tell folks, find what are what drives you, what kind of team and environment do you want to be part of, but also how do you help create that team and environment? Because we're all players in it, developing high performing teams. Meaning means that everyone brings something to the table and you want to harness it, and you want to continue to nurture it, to continue to produce even more, because you feel part of that mission and drive of what we're all achieving together.
Andi Simon: You're a real multiplier, aren't you? It isn't enough for you to have a job and to do things. It's only really good if I have a team, however big that might be, who also are empowered and engaged to multiply and do more together and better. This is really exciting.
Esther Aguilera: But it wasn't always something you and I talked about as well. It wasn't always an easy journey, right? You know, a big part was, I’ve been thinking a lot about the imposter syndrome and early in my career. Oh, my gosh, I was there really. Two big things to overcome. You know, one here is an immigrant working in the US Capitol, what am I doing here? And someone is going to expose me. I found that, in fact, I don't like the term imposter syndrome. There are two sides to it. I think most of it is self-inflicted. Let's say as an immigrant, you come here and you're already feeling like an outsider, and you don't always have the resources to really properly show up and build that confidence that you need to step into some new roles, but you have to find it yourself. And so in terms of the imposter syndrome, as I mentioned, there's kind of two sides to it. I think that other people probably see a lot more. When you're feeling that, people see a lot more value and worth and contributions, and you do it yourself. So I see it as an opportunity to turn it around and say, okay, well, what am I bringing to the table and how do I own my own worth and my own contribution? So, the imposter syndrome, you're only diminishing your self-worth. It's about building that up and then building a network and supporters around you that are also going to lift you up. Because we all need that. It's okay to ask for help. You can say, I don't feel good today, but you're always going to have ups and downs. That's part of life. It's not always going to be rosy.
Andi Simon: But, as you reflect on your movie, we were talking about how life is a movie and you don't want to end up regretting things. You have been able to champion gently yourself, slowly through many pivots, and each one adding richness to your life. And you add richness to that. And it isn't as if there's a straight line. I mean, one of the things that I think is so true is the unknown in front of you can become the best experience. I look to your wisdoms and I go, oh my goodness, Esther is a wise woman because that's exactly what we're saying. It's the unknown. Usually your brain fights it, flees it. Fear fiercely denies it. Appease it.
You have an amygdala that would like to hijack it, but instead you've embraced it and you've written a new story for yourself where it's okay, I cannot fail. I just embrace the new and I am going to succeed. Impostor syndrome could be a whole other podcast. I don't think I truly don't believe in it. I do think that people are always a little uncomfortable and it's okay to be uncomfortable. But in fact, the unknown in front of you can become the best experience. And that's right and once you turn lemons into lemonade, let's do it. What's the worst that can happen? Well, it didn't work. So what? And everything you've touched is turned to good, better and best. And so you've got a wonderful career, Esther. If you want to leave the folks with a couple of really cool, actionable things, one, two or three, other than forget your imposter syndrome, we don't need it. What would you share with them based on a beautiful life story?
Esther Aguilera: Well, certainly one, build that board for yourself around you and that group of friends, both peers and a network that you could be there for them. They're there for you, too. Don't be afraid to ask for help or to say, hey, I'm really happy where I am right now, but maybe I should start putting my resume out and privately talking to people about what I should be doing next. Because unless you put your name out there, whether it's for maybe something new or for a boardroom, people aren't going to have you on the top of their mind always, unless you bring it up or let them know, and that in your own mind kind of helps to put you in a position where you can say, hey, I'm ready for this pivot. And the last is, those pivots could be scary, but at the end of the day, they do open new opportunities.
Andi Simon: Yes. And opportunity is exactly what they are. They're not problems. They're all opportunities. And they are in front of you waiting for you to say, I'm cool, let's try it. And that becomes a great, great journey. This has been such fun. Thank you for joining us, our audiences, and Esther shared with us today some really profound opportunities that she has lived through with her superpowers. Esther, if they'd like to reach out to you for talking, experience, consulting, any kind of work with Altura, how could they reach you? Is there a website or is it through LinkedIn?
Esther Aguilera: I think the best way is LinkedIn. Esther Aguilera, and I look forward to hearing from individuals. It has been my great pleasure and thank you for inviting me. I'm honored and just really admire your work. Thank you for what you do for us all.
Andi Simon: Well, thank you for that kind, kind ending here. Esther and I have truly enjoyed being in Women Mean Business. And I think that the most interesting part of a book is you don't really know where it's going, like life. It takes you along. And that's what's happened here. And every time I open it and I read some things, they're all different. There are 500 of them. They really reflect very different perspectives, but very enriching ones and the energy and the force there. So when you read Esther's, you're going to say, of course the opportunities are here. Who's stopping me except me? And that becomes really important. Let me wrap up for all of you who come to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Thank you. You pushed us into the top 5% of podcasts globally, and I admire that for you because that's your benefit to it. We keep looking for great people that can help us see, feel and think in new ways. Send them along. Your emails are wonderful, and I keep looking for more people like Esther and others who can share with you their life's journey so that you can see how others have tackled the opportunities or the challenges that they faced. Remember, Women Mean Businesses is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local bookseller. So are all my other books there as well. So if we can help you take your observations and turn them into innovations, let us know. It's been a pleasure to share the day with you, Esther. I'll say goodbye and thank you so much. Goodbye, everybody.
Esther Aguilera: Bye bye everyone. Thank you. Andi.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon, the podcast where we delve into the stories, insights and wisdom of remarkable individuals who are trailblazing paths in the corporate world. I’m thrilled to have you join us today as we embark on a transformative journey with none other than Sandra Quince, an exemplary woman executive whose journey is nothing short of inspiring. Sandra Quince’s narrative is a testament to resilience, determination and unwavering commitment to personal and professional growth. With a career spanning decades in the corporate landscape, Sandra has navigated through challenges and shattered glass ceilings and emerged as a beacon of empowerment for women everywhere.
In today's episode, we have the privilege of unraveling the layers of Sandra's remarkable journey. From her humble beginnings to her ascent to executive leadership, Sandra's story is a poignant reminder of the power of perseverance and self-belief in the face of adversity. As we delve deeper into Sandra's narrative, we cannot help but be captivated by her profound insights into leadership and inclusivity. Sandra's wisdom transcends traditional notions of authority and is rooted in empathy, compassion, and a deep-seated commitment to fostering inclusivity and acceptance.
Throughout our conversation, Sandra imparts invaluable lessons on the art of influence and the importance of cultivating diverse and inclusive cultures within organizations. Her belief in the transformative power of diversity is a guiding light for leaders aspiring to create environments where every voice is heard, valued, and respected. Moreover, Sandra's mantra of "owning your career" is a powerful reminder that in a world where opportunities are abundant yet fiercely competitive, it's imperative to take charge of our own destinies. Sandra's journey is a testament to the fact that when we assert ourselves and take ownership of our paths, we pave the way for success on our own terms.
As we navigate the intricacies of Sandra's narrative, it becomes evident that her journey is not merely about personal triumphs but about paving the way for future generations of women leaders. Through her mentorship, advocacy, and unwavering commitment to championing diversity and inclusion, Sandra continues to drive positive change in the corporate landscape. I invite you to join us on this enriching journey as we unravel the tapestry of leadership with Sandra Quince. Her story is a testament to the transformative power of resilience, wisdom, and the unwavering belief in one's ability to shape their destiny.
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here (edited for readability and grammatical correctness): Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I am Andi Simon, your podcast host, and your guide. Remember, my job is to help you get off the brink. I find people who are going to do just that to help you. These words are very intentional: See, feel, and think in new ways so that you can change them. And I often tell people the brain hates me. It doesn't want to change. I'd rather stay where you are, even when you know it's better to be different and do something better. It's challenging for you to learn new techniques and begin to thrive with them. So today, I have a wonderful woman, Sandra Quince, with us. You can see her beautiful smile. I will tell you about her briefly, but she's also part of our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. So I will show you her picture here, which is gorgeous, and she has a beautiful quote. Remember, our book has 102 women with 500 wisdoms to help you start and spark your success. It's a beautiful book.
It's selling like crazy, but her wisdom is compelling. "Be a leader who creates an environment where everyone can bring their best selves and thrive."
Sandra." loves the quote by Mahatma Gandhi. "The greatest of humanity is not in being human, but in being humane ."I share that with you because I've been doing a great deal of podcasting lately, and people say we must become more humane. Corporations have to become more concerned about their employees' and communities' well-being. Culture has to begin to focus on "we," not "I," and I can say those words, but we have to do them.
Let me share Sandra Quince's bio, and then she'll tell you about her journey because it's beautiful. Sandra Quince is the business enablement and leader on loan and loan program executive responsible for leading business operations across workforce development and arts and heritage while also serving as program executive for the Leader on Loan Program, which is for Bank of America.
Prior to this, she was the chief executive officer for Paradigm for Parity through Bank of America's Leader on Loan Program, and she was responsible for leading all elements of Paradigm for Parity, strategic plan, financial, programmatic, and operational performance. She'll tell you more about P4P because it is a huge opportunity for you to understand what it can do and what you can do. She worked with the coalition's co-chairs and board of directors to oversee and execute the organization's vision and growth plans. She's been featured in Essence CEO, World Magazine, Fast Company and interviewed on Fintech, Fintech TV, BBC, and Bloomberg Radio. She's just an outstanding leader in her community, through boards, and through her actions. And what I'm so excited about today is that I've developed a program to help companies change their cultures, not by thinking about diversity, equity, and inclusion as a program, but instead as a mindset, as a way of seeing the opportunities that come from having lots of different ideas, being more innovative, inclusive. And humans love to belong. They don't want to be outliers. They don't want to be necessarily forgotten. So, how do we build that kind of culture at a time when D and I are under a bit of siege? People are wondering why we're doing it. We're doing it because it is transformative for ourselves and our businesses. Sandra, thank you for joining me today. It's an honor and a pleasure.
Sandra Quince: Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here with you. And thank you so much for having me on today.
Andi Simon: Isn't it fun? I'd love you to tell the listener or the viewer about your journey because it sets the stage for what we'll discuss next. Who is Sandra Quince?
Sandra Quince: Yeah, so thank you for that. My journey really started; I have been talking a lot about and reflecting on what makes Sandra who she is or who has had an influence on her.
And so it brings me back to my childhood. I am a product of a military father. And so we traveled around a lot. And I think that experience in itself, because you meet so many different people and get a chance to interact with different cultures really helps to build who you are and helps you to see the world through a very different lens. I also think about the lessons that my great-grandmother taught me of being just a really kind and strong woman while being kind and being very cognizant of the fact that you're not better than others. It was part of my lessons growing up: how to be resilient and bounce back from things. She was a powerful woman, and while not formally educated, she was extremely intelligent. But then, it also taught me to stand up for myself, advocate for myself, and speak up for myself. And so that's where I draw that inner strength. When I became the CEO of Paradigm for Parity, that didn't happen by happenstance, right? There were a series of things that led up to that. But earlier in my career, Andrea, one of the things that I didn't understand was that when you put your head down and you're working hard, that wasn't enough. And I showed up to laugh.
Andi Simon: I know, I know the feeling well.
Sandra Quince: So you show up. I was a first-generation college student. I was a first-generation corporate. I needed help understanding the rules of the road. And while I had these beautiful life lessons, I wasn't sure how to employ them at that moment. And I came into the workforce thinking, if you just put your head down and do really good work, you will get promoted. And while doing really good work is a part of what we all should do, because that's table stakes, that is not the only path that leads you to promotion. That is just one part of many different things we must consider in the workplace. And so I did learn that I needed to not just do good work, but I also needed to understand what I wanted out of my career. I needed to understand how to advocate for myself, employ the life lessons I learned earlier as a child, and speak up and talk about the good work I was doing. So think about how are you telling your story. How are you telling others about the work you're leading and doing but adding value to your organization and advocating for yourself? And I learned the power of networking and sponsorship. And so all that and part of the wisdom that I shared, and you touched on a little bit as we talked about this session, is really about owning your career. I learned a valuable lesson that I have to focus 100% on my career.
Andi Simon: I do love that. And I've been using it. I've been sharing it. My grandkids, even my daughters, because we are all going through life's journey, and people put you in boxes, and they are pleased putting you in that box and thinking that's who you are. I coached a woman who got stuck and stalled in her career not long ago, and I said, you still need to take ownership of it. She said, what does that mean? I said, well, you assumed, like Sandra did, that if I work hard, I'll be noticed, and therefore, I'll get promoted. And you're upset that others you've trained have gotten promoted without any of your experience. It's a recurring theme, particularly for women, but not only for women. Now the question becomes, as you're thinking about that career, somehow you moved into an area that has become honorable in some ways, perhaps by design or by chance, in helping others understand the power of a diverse, equitable, inclusive, and belonging workplace. And I say those words to make them come alive. It's not denied; it's about a diverse, equitable, inclusive, and belonging place for people. It's not a program. It's a place where we love to come to work. Talk a lot to our audience about how one migrates there and then owns it, and then what do we learn from it? Can you share, please?
Sandra Quince: Yeah, absolutely. So, you're absolutely right. Diversity, equity and inclusion is not about a program. It's about creating the right ecosystem for your company and your employees to thrive. And the reason why companies should be engaged in diversity, equity and inclusion is because, number one, you will be more profitable. There are studies that have been around for 30-plus years that prove this point. Companies that engage in this work put the right resources behind it. It's not just lip service. They're 30% to 40% times more profitable. And why are they more profitable? Well, they're more profitable because they create the right ecosystem for their employees to show up and do their best work. So what does that mean? That means that your employees are in an environment where they can give their best and do their best work, which means that creates profitability for the company because they're interacting with them, with the customers and clients in a way that creates, that sells those products or creates that opportunity to engage more customers and more clients and creates opportunities for companies to have more market share. The other thing is, you have more companies and clients because they see that there are people that reflect who they are that they can do business with, and that promotes trust in a brand. And so the third and fourth thing is you're more innovative because you have different voices, different experiences, and different mindsets sitting at a table, and you create the products and services that help your organization thrive. And so that's the reason why companies should be doing it. Yes, it's the right thing to do. Yes, it creates the right opportunities for your employee base. But at the end of the day, I work for an organization that's there to be profitable, and I want that organization to be profitable because that's how I make money as an employee. So, creating an opportunity and engaging around diversity, equity, and inclusion are things you can't afford not to do. And so in this day and age, where, yes, there is a lot of backlash, yes, there there are those out there that are saying that diversity, equity, and inclusion is not what it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, meaning that they feel like it's reverse discrimination or it, it causes division.
That has never been the intent, nor is it what real diversity, equity, and inclusion do for organizations. There's a study that came out recently, Andi, that asked thousands of employees and this was just released, I think late last month. They asked them, do you still want your organizations to engage in DNI? And so one would think that that answer would have been a resounding no, based on what you hear out and what you hear the rhetoric today. But 90% of employees said no, absolutely. It is critical to my organization's and my success.
Andi Simon: There's additional research that I've been reading like you have, which says that people look for companies that have diversity in leadership. And it's not just that they want to belong. They want to know that it matters to the organization and that they can see pathways to progress and success. And they are consumers. They are no different than your clients or your customers. They're looking for a place where they see curiosity and things where I can belong, and I can share my ideas in a healthy way so that people hear me and I can be strong instead of in a box. I am interested in Paradigm 4 Parity. How did that develop? Because it's a particular approach, and it's amazing. The Bank of America has underwritten it. Please give us some perspective on what it is, how it works, and how people could benefit from it.
Sandra Quince: Absolutely. Paradigm 4 Parity is an organization that was created, seven years ago, will be going into our eighth year this year. And it's an organization that was created by women for women. So, these were women who had achieved great things in their organizations. They were CEOs and they were on the back side of their careers. And what they realized when they turned around to look behind them wasn't no other women were coming behind them. There was one other woman in the pipeline, and more importantly, their daughters were entering into the workforce. They realized we have a problem, and we have got to find a way to solve it. So, unlike some of us who sometimes sit on the sidelines and talk about the issues, these women got together and said, we need to do something about this. And so they created Paradigm 4 Parity. Paradigm 4 Parity is dedicated to achieving gender parity at every level of leadership in corporate America with a lens on racial equity. And so these women said, not only do we need to create this organization and invite companies of various sizes to be a part of this coalition and a part of this change that we want to see, we're going to provide them with a roadmap or a five-point action plan, we like to call it, to help these organizations be able to navigate their way to success, to achieving gender parity. And so they did tons of interviews. They took subject matter experts, interviewed the women who had been successful in their careers, and boiled it down to five key actions that organizations need to take in order to see Parity. And what's beautiful about this is when organizations execute on this, you not only have gender parity, but it creates that ecosystem that I talked about earlier, where you're creating an environment where everyone, men, women of all ethnicities can show up and thrive in an environment that becomes equitable and fair for all. And so, yes, while we're dedicated to achieving gender parity, we've provided the blueprint and all the tools and resources to go along with that. We also understand that it's important that we bring everyone along in this journey. And so it creates an equitable environment for all.
Andi Simon: You know, you're talking about a significant transformation of the corporate and social aspects because this isn't just inside the company. This is the whole mindset about how we see each other. Humans are quite fascinating because we're status creatures. It's me against my brother and my brother against my cousin. A little anthropology always helps us understand the perspective that we've evolved and survived by comparing ourselves. Gregory Batson has some significant research on the differences. The difference is only because we see the outside differently from us. We know who we are. But now, it becomes a much broader perspective beyond the tribe about the fact that I can be much more extensive and broader. With so many people going through college education and traveling and seeing different things, it's a time for personal and professional growth in our companies. Paradigm 4 Parity: is that something a company buys? Is it something they just understand? How do they get involved with it?
Sandra Quince: Absolutely. So, I encourage everyone watching and/or listening to this podcast to go to Paradigm4rparity.org and check out our website. All companies have to decide that this is definitely where we are on this journey, and we want to see Parity within the workplace and workforce. And they can join us. And you will see that we have 150 plus other coalition members that are on this journey with us. Those that are doing great work and have achieved Parity at certain levels in their organizations and those just starting out who are saying, you know, we're new to this. We want to make an impact. And so we have all and everything in between from an organizational perspective. So, join us and take advantage of the five-point action plan, the tools and the resources that we offer, the webinars and seminars that we provide, connecting with others who are like-minded and on this journey with you, and understanding what those leading practices are that are out there that organizations are doing to achieve and sustain parity within their organizations. So it is quite simple, Andi, for people to join us.
Andi Simon: How does it feel? I tell people that people decide with their eyes and their heart. And they need to find out what it is. You know, what is it until they see it and feel it and trust that it is, in fact, it's good? And that's how we'll decide to behave differently and act on it. It takes work to change. You're looking for people to change their mindset, their conversations, their microaggressions, the things they don't even know they're doing. And begin to see each other in a different light. Are there some illustrations you can share that aren't proprietary that will help people see it better than just hearing it from you?
Sandra Quince: Absolutely. And what you're talking about and describing, especially around our human nature, is the nature around being biased. Unconscious bias. And I know people say they hear that all the time and they wonder, I don't have biases. But the truth is because we're human, we're born with biases. Biases are created every single day. It is not curable.
Andi Simon: It's not. I never thought of biases as being not curable. I like that. Go ahead.
Sandra Quince: It's not curable. There's not anything you can take that can cure biases. There are things you can do to mitigate bias and think about when bias becomes dangerous. So think about it. You know, here's a simple illustration. I am a graduate of Florida State University.
Me and my husband, we're staunch Seminole fans. And so if you went to the University of Miami, you are automatically the enemy to us, right? Because there is a bias there because we are rival teams. Automatic. There is a thought that pops in your head when that rival is mentioned. That is a bias. It just so happens, though, that particular bias is not necessarily dangerous, right? Because it is fun. It is a sport. But when bias becomes dangerous, you then take that same thought process and apply it to the workplace and don't hire someone because of the way that they look or where they might come from, or the gender, or who they love, or what ethnicity they are. So again, that's when biases become extremely dangerous. And so what we do at Paradigm 4 Parity is we help organizations understand how to mitigate that bias in those very dangerous moments. And those dangerous moments really show up in the employee lifecycle. And so we talk about mitigating bias in the moments that matter. So, the employee lifecycle starts with hiring. Then it moves to onboarding. Then it moves to developing. Then it moves to promoting. Then it moves to managing talent and then it moves to retention. So, these are all of the inflection points where decisions are made. About whether I'm going to be even hired into an organization. Now, how am I onboarded in that organization? Because that makes a difference. Because that is a jumping point for me in how well I perform. And then do I get opportunities to be developed in that organization, which then leads to promotion? And when we think about how we manage talent, so those talent management processes and thinking about pay, thinking about how you rate talent, all of those things become very subjective and biases creep into those processes. And so how do we mitigate those? And then last is retaining who we retain and why and who aren't we retaining and why? And so again, we talk a lot at Paradigm 4 Parity and help our organizations through some of the tools and resources, leading practices, sessions, programs, as well as our webinars and seminars around how are you mitigating this bias in those moments that matter and help organizations think about creating that or that ecosystem where their talent can thrive?
Andi Simon: You know, some of this is challenging. So, as a listener or the viewer is reflecting on their own decisions and biases and, remember that musicians, they've tried to make gender-neutral, unbiased decisions about whether to put somebody into their orchestra by having them perform behind a screen so they don't know who they are. You just know what they're producing, what their outcomes are. And we've tried this in a program that I had at Washington University, and we try to have venture capitalists or funders understand who is presenting, not by their nature or who they were or their background, but what the value of the program was that they were looking for funding for. Very little money goes from VCs to women-owned businesses for a reason. It's a woman, much less a woman who's a minority or a person of color. And so it becomes essential for us to get neutralized in some fashion, either by creating an illusion or actually thinking about why I'm deciding this, making it intentional, as opposed to simply an old habit where an old bias creeps in and says, well, I saw that before. Or someone I knew way back when, or they didn't produce well. You'll be amazed how much baggage you carry and how noise in your brain influences your decisions. And you're not free-wheeling it here. You're habit-driven and trying to come up with a better solution. One staff person in the staffing industry said it provides a more diverse pool for the HR folks to evaluate. But, when he provides them, those selecting the candidates don't select them in a neutral environment. As he says, I can send them the right mix, but they just go back to finding people who look like them. That is not good for building better organizations. That's not even good for hiring somebody. This business has evolved. Are you seeing one or two trends being done that are helpful and hopeful?
Sandra Quince: You're absolutely right. Let me circle back on the bias piece that you talked about. Because when you think about mitigating those biases in those moments, like you say, creating those illusion of opportunities where you could do blind resumes, you're absolutely right. Because there are things on resumes you don't have to have. What you really need to understand is their credentials. What makes them qualified for it? But then I think also mitigating the bias in those moments that matter can come, like you said, by asking yourself some simple questions. Yes, you think of it like a muscle. You have to constantly work it, or it will revert back to what it was before. So let me say that we're in a very interesting time, Andi, certainly when we think about what's helpful and hopeful. So what's helpful right now? We're in this time where really many companies, especially those that are part of Paradigm for Parity and our coalition, they're doubling down. They're doubling down and they are staying true to who they are as an organization, their mission, their vision and their values. They're doubling down and continuing the good work of creating an equitable, fair workplace for all. And I think what these companies are doing is they're also looking at their language to be sure their language aligns with the outcomes they want to achieve, and making sure that inclusion is at the forefront of everything that they do, which inclusion should be the leading factor. It's inclusion for all. It's also diversity, equity and inclusion for all. And so leading with that is many organizations are taking a step and leading with that inclusion piece and ensuring that if I have programs that are specific for certain people, why do we have these programs? So processes are put in place. And I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning your why. So you can go back and create the right data sets and analytics to help explain why you're on the path you're on, and reconfirming for yourself that this is really the right thing to do. So, for me, that is helpful. And for organizations to go through that exercise and ensure that whatever they're doing, that it matters and that it's creating the right environment that they want to see for their organization. And then putting the data and the analytics behind it. So what's hopeful right? What's hopeful is that 90% that I talked about earlier, Andi, the majority of people want to see a more equitable workplace and they want to see it for everyone. And that is hopeful for me, and especially those that are in the workforce today and those that are entering into the workforce really understanding and working for those organizations. They do their homework and their research, and they will not work for organizations that they can't see themselves there.
Andi Simon: And they know that hope comes from being in a place with a curious, broad perspective because if not, they will be in a box. McKinsey, in February 2023, had their "Women in the Workforce: 2022," in which they spoke about the great breakup. The women were leaving the corporate because they didn't see any hope for advancement. And there was no effort to give them new growth opportunities or even to demonstrate that the work they did mattered. This is a time where women have a choice, and men do as well. I am looking at Gen Zs and wondering and worrying about our guys because women are getting rallied around and the men don't quite know what to rally around. And without belonging to something, they feel a little lost. And it's worrisome. And our kids will look at the adults and wonder about what they will be. So this is a transformative time, Sandra. This has been wonderful. One or two things you want our listeners and viewers to remember, because your conversation has absolutely transfixed me. I'm enjoying every moment. But we do have to end. What would you like them not to forget?
Sandra Quince: I don't want them to forget that biases are not curable. And I think as individuals, we need to ensure that we're mitigating our bias. And always ask yourself and be curious who's missing and why? Think about that on your teams when you show up to work. Are you an upstander? When you see something, do you say something? Do you challenge the status quo when you feel like something isn't right? And what solutions are you bringing to the table, and how are you supporting your organization to be better? And I want organizations to understand that there is a lot of work for you to do to ensure you're creating the right ecosystem. How are you engaging and supporting your managers and your people leaders because they lead the majority of your population and they make or break your culture?
Andi Simon: This has been a marvelous half hour. I can keep going. I'm thinking about ways to bring this out to my clients to help them see, feel, and think better because they're looking for it. They're reaching that point where I have one client who finally made three women partners in their firm, and it was with I mean, I've been working with them for six years. It was with great effort and, and it is an interesting time to watch people go through slow transformation. What is that expression, a little a little and off the cliff they go. And I think we're reaching that end where a little was good, but a lot would be greater.
Sandra Quince: Absolutely.
Andi Simon: For my listeners, I want you to remember one thing, that the words you choose create the world to live in. And Sandra has been saying that in many different ways today. Bias, thinking about whether it's diversity, equity, inclusion, or belonging, those are words, and we live with behaviors. But the words we use create the worlds we live in. So think carefully about what you're thinking and saying what you're hearing because what is said is only sometimes what you hear. And what you hear often is what you think, but not necessarily what was meant. So the complexity of this should not be underestimated. But the opportunity, particularly with Paradigm 4 Parity and its five-step process, is ready for you. So if they want to reach you, Sandra, how can they do that?
Sandra Quince: So they can reach me on LinkedIn at Sandra Quince. They can go on our website paradigmforparity.org. We would love to have you peruse our site. And, of course there are all kinds of ways to reach our organization once you join our site.
Andi Simon: It's been a pleasure, a privilege, and thank you so much for joining us today. For my listeners and my viewers, we had fun. It's so much fun to explore something, listen to see, feel, and think in new ways, and see how you can change. I'll plug in because Women Mean Business is full of beautiful wisdom that will spark your success. As Sandra was sharing those, I've been repeating that as you rise, lift others with you. It's intentional, and I've worked with women who are CEOs, and they don't have any process for moving others up. They have yet to notice they're building the business but haven't noticed what that means for all others inside. So this is a time to get intentional about it. As you rise, lift others, and you'll find Women Mean Business at womenmeanbusinessbook.com. Amazon would love for you to go and buy it there. So thanks, Sandra. I'm going to say goodbye to everybody. Thanks again for joining us. It's been great. Have a wonderful day. Remember to take your observations and turn them into innovations. Be a little anthropologist. You may enjoy it. Bye-bye now.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Hear how we can all embrace the notion of productization, not fear it Today I bring to you an exceptional businesswoman and innovator whom I would also call a futurist, Eisha Tierney Armstrong. Eisha specializes in helping B2B companies transform their customized services into more scalable products. In other words, she helps them productize, which is also the title of her best-selling book. She shows businesses how to take a service that is delivered by people and standardize it, usually by automating it with technology. This is not to be feared, she says, but welcomed, because of the many possibilities it enables. Listen and share!
Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our discussion: * B2B buyers are changing. They’re more comfortable buying products, not talking to people, doing all their research on the internet. * The cultural attributes that make you a great professional services firm, like always knowing the answer to a client question, can actually get in the way of productizing. Because if you’re productizing and trying to innovate, you don’t necessarily know what the right answer is. You have to go out and learn and be open to failure and experimentation and not seeing failure as a bad thing. * One of the cultural attributes that’s really important to do this successfully is the ability to learn and be open to change. * People get afraid and they think, Am I going to lose my job? Am I still going to have value? How am I going to keep up with all the skills required? Those are very valid, important fears. But the most exciting thing about productization is the potential for growth. You can now grow faster than the rate at which you have to add headcount. You can serve new markets. You can impact more people and that can be very rewarding. * We are at the precipice of a massive explosion in growth and if we focus on that, people will be more willing to embrace the change.
How to connect with Eisha You can find Eisha on LinkedIn and her website Vecteris. You can also email her at eisha.armstrong@vecteris.com.
Want to learn more about preparing your business for the future, now? Check out these: * Unlocking New Opportunities: Exploring Blue Ocean Strategy® To Understand Your Future Customers * Navigating The Future: The Vital Need For Leadership Training In The Post-Pandemic Era * Jennifer Kluge—Meet The Leader To Build Your Business Into One Of The Best And Brightest * Byron Reese—How Humans Learned to See the Future, and You Can Too!
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon. I’m your host and your guide. My job is to help you get off the brink. I’ve been doing this for almost 400 podcasts now, and it’s absolutely wonderful that you, our audience, keep enjoying it, sending us ideas about people whom we should interview and really celebrating the fact that you’ve gotten off the brink, picking up ideas from the people we bring to you to help you do something important for you to change. You need to see, feel, and think in new ways.
I always say you take your observations and turn them into innovations, and today is particularly interesting. For that reason, I have Eisha Armstrong here. Jennifer McCollum (who was on this podcast in August of last year) brought her to us and suggested we should have a conversation, particularly about the work she’s doing in the B2B world of professional services. But I think it’s important for you listening to her to see what she sees out in the market and how that could help you do better for yourself and your business.
Now, I must say, I listen to Amy Webb at SXSW and her video is just wonderful, and I watch it as many years as I can. But she is talking about the fourth industrial revolution coming now, and I would tell you that you cannot wait. It’s here. And that question is really important for you and your business.
So we’ll be weaving that in a little bit today as well. Who is Eisha? Eisha Armstrong is a co-founder and executive chairman of Vecteris. She’s dedicated to helping business-to-business companies transform their customized services into more scalable products. Prior to co-founding Vecteris, Eisha held Senior Product Leadership roles at the E.W. Scripps Company and at CEB, now Gartner, the world’s largest membership-based corporate performance research and advisory company. She has a best-selling book, Productize: The Ultimate Guide to Turning Professional Services into Scalable Products and her other book is Fearless: How to Transform a Services Culture and Successfully Productize. I think we’ll talk about productize today a bit. I’m delighted to have you here. I should thank you for joining me.
Eisha Armstrong: Well thank you, Andi, it’s a pleasure to be here.
Andi Simon: I am delighted you came back from Costa Rica in time for us to have a great conversation, although I have met with someone in Costa Rica for a podcast, so the world is very flat and small. Tell the audience about your own journey because you are at a point now that’s very timely and important for them to know about you and about what we’re going to talk about and Vecteris today. Who is Eisha Armstrong?
Eisha Armstrong: Well, thank you Andi. So I started my career, as you mentioned, at CEB, which was purchased by Gartner about eight years ago. As a data scientist right out of undergrad, of course we didn’t call them data scientists at the time, so my title was research analyst. But I was doing research on different corporate performance topics that were specifically focused on data analysis to uncover root causes of corporate performance, and I ended up spending a good 15 years of my career there, working my way up.
CEB sponsored me to go to business school, so I was fortunate enough to get my MBA while I was there and that moved me into a very early product management role. And at the time, the company didn’t have product managers. So we had to kind of define what that role meant, what that looked like, and learn from people in the software industry about what product management was. And by the time I left, I was leading a portfolio of products.
Fast forward to 2018, and I co-founded Vecteris with a former colleague of mine, specifically to help B2B professional services firms learn how to, as you mentioned, the title of my book, productize, which means taking a service that is delivered by people and standardizing it, usually automating it, with some form of technology. Perhaps, delivering it in a more scalable fashion, which tends to improve profit margins. If they’re selling, they can usually do that on a more subscription basis, which improves renewable revenue, and makes it easier to run their firms.
So we’ve been focused on that for the last six years,and as you mentioned, I published two books. I have my third one coming out later this year because my passion is really understanding what are the keys to being successful in this type of transformation. So I’ve focused a lot of my time now on researching that and then publishing those findings.
Andi Simon: So clarify for the audience, what professional services firms are.
Eisha Armstrong: Oh great question. So it could be anything from a law firm, an accounting firm, management consulting firm, training and development, HR services, engineering and architecture, IT services. But usually where you have professionals who are providing you with their expertise and their time in exchange for money, versus a product company, which is providing a kind of a prepackaged set of features and value, in exchange for money.
Andi Simon: And so we’re going to take the people part and somehow turn it into something that you can sell that could be accessed without necessarily as much people interface on it. And this has interesting implications both for the company producing it and selling it and those who are buying it and their expectations.
So I have a hunch that as you’ve gone through your six years into Vecteris now, I’m 23 years in business and I’ve watched many generations of changes come and go. This one is the most exciting for me because I do think it’s transformational.
But for a B2B company, my accounting firm client, for example, I’ve been working with for six years, what could they do to sort of productize something? Is there something you can sort of share with us that you’ve seen work particularly well?
Eisha Armstrong: Yeah. So we talk about productization in terms of different levels. The first level would just be what we call productized services, where they’re still delivering value through people. But perhaps the engagement of this accounting firm, let’s take an audit for example, is more standardized. So there’s a set of templates and tools that their professionals can use to deliver that audit the same way for every client. And perhaps they have different packages.
So rather than selling the audit engagement based on time and materials, we’re going to charge $500 an hour. They say the audit’s going to cost you $50,000 all in. If you want A, B, C type service, if you want to upgrade and get A, B, C plus D, then it’s going to cost you $75,000. So they’re doing kind of the same set of activities, the same way from client to client. They’re able to package it up and price it more on kind of value-based pricing versus time and materials pricing.
And there may also be some technology that their professionals are using in the background to help them deliver those engagements more efficiently. And perhaps generative AI is one of those technologies they’re using. But most of the interface with the client is still human-to-human. So that’s what we call productized services.
Then you have more products which are not services. They’re not delivered by humans. But, perhaps it’s a piece of software that the accounting firm has developed and that they install at their client to help them improve reconciliation between their accounting software and perhaps some type of inventory management system or something like that. And then they’re charging that client a monthly fee to license the software that this accounting firm has developed. And that would be an example of a product.
So software is an obvious example, but data could also be another example of a product. You know, perhaps the accounting firm has developed some proprietary data set and they want to license it to their clients. That could be a product. It could be an off-the-shelf kind of online training program that their clients go in and access and take online training. So there’s no human-to-human involvement in the delivery of it, but you still need humans for relationship development and account management and things like that.
Andi Simon: This is so interesting because when you productize it like other Microsoft products, it comes with annual updates and upgrades. I love your monthly fees for service and a support staff that is located maybe in the Philippines. So there’s all kinds of ways that you can now optimize the talent you have without simply adding more talent. Correct?
And this becomes a mind shift, if I know enough about enough of my professional service firms to know that their minds are about doing what they do now better, maybe cheaper, faster, but not by making it into a product per se, but by simply having more talent.
The pandemic gave them the options of having more attorneys who were remote, or more accountants who were remote. That sounded really unthinkable before the pandemic. And now it’s quite normal. But, now you’re talking about taking what we do and looking at it as a different thing. A product is different from a service. So we can talk about many of these things. One thing that you and I were sharing was that we must change the culture inside the firm and the firms that are using those services.
I don’t want to lose the opportunity in our conversation to talk about what that means as you move from people and services to a product and sales from a cultural point of view, and I have a hunch you’re seeing that. You and I can share some cases, but what are you seeing?
Eisha Armstrong: Yeah. Great question. So I think first of all, you have to take a step back and look at this as a fundamental transformation for most organizations. So if you’re, let’s say a law firm and now you want to also sell software alongside your legal services, this is a significant change because you’re not only having to think differently about how you create value, because it’s a little bit of a business model transformation, but you’re going to need new skills, new technical skills, skills that people are skilled in, lean product development or agile, for example.
It’s just kind of a different way of operating, and so if you think about your business model transformation, digital transformation, trying to become more innovative, fast-paced, that is a very different culture than a traditional law firm.
And some people may find that very threatening, especially if you’re saying, okay, we used to create value based on the expertise in Andi’s head. Well, Andi, now we’re going to create value based on the intellectual property of the entire firm that has been documented. Andi could deliver it or somebody else could deliver it. Or maybe it’s delivered digitally.
So we don’t even need a person like that who can be very threatening to people who’ve defined their entire careers based on my expertise is what creates value. And so that’s a big change. And I think it’s important for organizations to think about that before they embark on a product decision strategy.
Andi Simon: Have you seen any illustrative case studies you can share where they’ve done it well or where it blew up?
Eisha Armstrong: Oh, yes. Countless. So one is a management consulting firm that we’ve worked with now for several years. And they go in and they work with manufacturing companies, industrial companies, and their consultants created an algorithm to help manufacturers batch custom manufacturing jobs and do it in a more productive way. And their senior partners were like, we could turn this algorithm into a piece of software and we could sell it and we could productize it and wow, you know, multiples on software businesses are much larger than multiples on the consulting businesses like this. This is a great idea.
And we’re like, yes, there’s a great need. There was nobody else in the market doing this. They had the skill set. But let’s think about the culture change and what’s going to be required. So what they ultimately decided to do was to set it up as a separate organization and so they kind of insulated it from the primary consulting business. It had its own dedicated team that was fully funded full time working on this, this software product, not off the side of their desk.
They had different performance measures. They had a different name in the marketplace. So they weren’t using the name of the parent company to really distinguish that this is not just kind of a different way of delivering value, but it’s also a different culture. Yeah. And they’ve been quite successful operating this as kind of a separate business that still has the benefit of the strength of the balance sheet of the consulting firm, the client relationships where they’re able to feed them leads. They’re recognizing that it’s a significant difference in cultures and operating them as two separate businesses. So that would be a great success story.
Andi Simon: It is brilliant. But on their part, they understood that an artwork and a draft don’t necessarily come out with something better. This was different and needed a whole different model for it to be successful. That is a brilliant company with amazing leadership to understand that. So often we work a lot on observation to innovation, a lot of innovation that never gets out of the starting gate, mostly because they try to add it on to their current staff whose minds are in a whole different place.
You know, people say, what’s culture? I say, it’s what you do every day and believe it’s the way we should do it. Let’s not get too sophisticated here. But for those who are doing the service part, it is what we do every day. And for those who are developing the product, it has nothing to do with what we do every day. And unless you understand that you cannot succeed in prioritizing your services without a different way of doing that.
Eisha Armstrong: Absolutely. Yes.
Andi Simon: Now, with that in mind, as you’re talking, I’m saying, okay, now how are they creating these products and are they eliminating the service part or are they just rapid fast forward using, I don’t know, generative AI. What do you see happening on the productization part?
Eisha Armstrong: So we see a couple of different what we call archetypes. So the first one is, we are going to develop products that are bundled in with our services. I mentioned perhaps there’s a piece of software that’s installed alongside some consulting work that might be done and that’s sold as a kind of a single solution to a client.
Say, you have this problem. For example, you want to improve your ability to attract highly skilled talent. You need some consultants to come in and understand what type of skills you need. What might be preventing the organization right now from attracting that talent? But you might also need some compensation benchmarking data and you might need that to be updated monthly, and so it’s a mix of the kind of data technology that is delivering value.
And so we call that kind of the bundled solutions approach to productization. And I think it’s actually, Andi, a brilliant move for a lot of professional services firms because it leverages their existing competitive advantage, which is their service professionals and the existing relationships that they have with clients. So they’re bundling those products along with that.
The other option might be like this management consulting firm that decided to kind of run it as a separate business because what they found is that the manufacturers that were interested in the software product were actually different from the manufacturers that they worked with on their consulting engagements. So it was an entirely new market. And that also fed into their decision to run it as a separate business because it really didn’t make sense to bundle the two, given they were separate markets who were interested in the services versus interested in the software product.
And then the third archetype is where you decide you’re going to fully sunset being a services business, and you’re going to transform to be a 100% products business that is less common. And when we do see it, it’s usually with younger professional services firms who start offering professional services. They uncover a great need that they can meet with a product and aren’t yet at the level of maturity where it doesn’t make sense to sunset the services business. They can kind of eat that cost and transform and become a full products business. So those are the three different archetypes that we see.
Andi Simon: So let me repeat them back. The first one bundles it, and the second one is segregated, and the third one is young and can see opportunities and aren’t so wedded to the way we’ve always done it here that they can reinvent themselves.
Eisha Armstrong: Correct. Yes.
Andi Simon: And I love to summarize what you’ve said, because for the listener, Eisha has said some very important things. There isn’t a single way that you can take what you do. So don’t look at it as a thing. Begin to think about it. And I think it’s very important outside in, it isn’t. What you do is what a customer does and which customer wants or needs for this manufacturing service provider. Some of their customers probably are older and are much more set in their ways and are happy to talk to people. And younger may be very unhappy talking to people.
I had one logistics company and their salespeople couldn’t get the people they used to talk to to answer the phone. They were still doing calls. And when I interviewed the folks who they thought would be their buyers, they had retired. And the new folks who had come in were all 30 somethings who said to me very quietly, we don’t use the phone.
And I say that because the point is that times are changing fast, and the people in the times, they are changing fast and so assume nothing. You’re in a startup mode. It’s a whole new time for reinvention. Both of them have an understanding of what the new clients need because they’re younger too, in many cases. You know, let’s stop being angry about the fact that Gen Z is the largest workforce. And let’s figure out how to work with them to change it.
Now, what’s interesting from just the lifespan of some of these products, they’re startups in many ways now. Are they aggressively now elevating them to the next stage, or are they so happy they got a product? I was curious about how people see things. Got it, got the product. Now what? What do you see?
Eisha Armstrong: So let’s say we’re working with a company who’s noticing the same changes that you’re talking about. B2B buyers are changing. You know, they’re more comfortable buying products, not talking to people, doing all their research on the internet. They are more comfortable buying things on a subscription basis. Plus, they also see shifts in the competitive landscape.
You have digital first startups who are saying this, solving the same problem that services companies used to solve. Plus, you have generative AI. Lots of things are changing and your labor force is getting more expensive. Wouldn’t it be nice if you could grow and not have to add headcount at the same rate? So all of these things might lead a business leader to want to productize.
And the first thing we talk about is, okay, this is a different way of thinking. Usually what you want is a portfolio, just like if you were a venture capitalist, because some of your product ideas are going to be home runs and some are going to be stinkers, and you don’t really know right now which idea is going to be which. You may have some assumptions and hypotheses that we can go out and test and validate, but you don’t have a crystal ball that’s going to give you the answer.
So let’s think about this as a portfolio. What are some quick one things that are lower investment? Perhaps you’ve already validated because a couple of clients have asked for this and even helped pay for some of the R&D. They are really easy to bundle with your existing services or serve your existing clients. And then what are some of these moonshot ideas where there’s perhaps more investment required over time, but perhaps much more value and potential. And what are some steps that we can start to take today to test and research and validate some of your hypotheses about those moonshot ideas.
And then let’s come back either monthly or quarterly, and look at the performance of this portfolio of product ideas and see how it’s doing. Are our assumptions correct? If so, add a little bit more investment, just like a venture capitalist would. Or did we invalidate some of our hypotheses and realize that some of these great ideas are actually stinkers and we need to stop investing in them, sunset them, and put our efforts elsewhere.
Andi Simon: I laugh listening to you because that requires a completely different mindset that detaches you from the products themselves. They aren’t about you. I once taught at Washington University a course for entrepreneurs, and I brought in some entrepreneurs and they left some lasting things in my head. And one guy said, Well, I built three businesses. Some worked, some didn’t.
It requires a detached relationship with that product, because it isn’t that you didn’t have a good idea. Some work, some don’t. So what? Move on. Right. But you need to have an open mind about what is working and be wise enough to know how to redirect investment as if you’re your own investor as opposed to the runner of the business. And that changes the whole relationship.
Even with each other and with a client and that’s a maturity that could come in youth, but it requires a different sense of what this product is and how it operates. And what do I mean to it? And how am I almost like a business school case study as opposed to a real life thing? Does that make sense?
Eisha Armstrong: It does. Absolutely. It’s really interesting, Andi, because we talk to professional services firms, leaders, and say, look, the cultural attributes that make you a great professional services firm, like always knowing the answer to a client question, can actually get in the way of productizing. Because if you’re productizing and trying to innovate, you don’t necessarily know what the right answer is. You have to go out and learn and be open to failure and kind of experimentation and not seeing failure as a bad thing. So you’ve got this on the one hand, a cultural attribute of knowing that has made you a great professional services firm is now going to get in the way of learning and experimenting.
Andi Simon: And I’ll put a pitch in for, again, an anthropologist to go out to those clients while you’re introducing these things and observe. You have no idea how many times I work with clients who have launched products and assume they know how their customers are using them, and then I go, and I often love to take them with me, because if I see and they don’t, they won’t believe me. So I take them along and I say, Be an anthropologist, just hang out, watch.
And they get shocked by the fact that this wonderfully complex thing that their engineers over-engineered isn’t being used at all the way they thought, and they usually see one little piece of it so that it serves their purpose as opposed to the overarching complex services that they have productized without calling it that. But this is what they did.
And it is interesting to me how we cannot see the world through our own eyes. You kind of look backwards. You know what’s going on with the customer who think they gave you a good question to answer, and you answer that question, but it was the wrong question. It really had nothing to do with what they really needed.
And I often find that particularly when the question has come down through a company and a more junior person has come to find a solution, only to realize they didn’t really know what the question was that was being asked way up the line. And as a result, they come back with an answer that doesn’t match. It’s the old telephone game. It is so interesting.
So you are in a moment of watching these companies potentially transform themselves, not quite putting the services sector out of business, but transforming the whole business. This is really cool stuff. We have a few more minutes, and I want to just talk briefly about the training and skill development. Are you finding them beginning to understand that they have to rethink the training and skill development of their teams?
Eisha Armstrong: Oh, absolutely. I mentioned, for example, one of the cultural attributes that’s really important to do this successfully is the ability to learn. So one of the skill sets that you could look for are people who have kind of a hypothesis-based research background: could be from hard sciences, social sciences, but people who are used to developing hypotheses, testing them and being somewhat removed in terms of the outcome. So they’re dispassionate about that and try to put on their scientist hat as the great organizational psychologist Adam Grant calls it and be open to changing their mind. So that’s one that’s very important.
Another one is, the ability to do what we call: think from a market segment standpoint. So market-minded, because professional services companies have been thinking very 1:1. What does Andi Simon need? Okay. I’m going to go and deliver exactly what she needs. Now you’re thinking about, what is a market segment that is similar to Andi Simon. What does this entire market segment need and how can we deliver something of value that meets maybe 80% of their needs, but not 100% of their needs? And that’s a very different way of thinking.
Usually people who’ve done market research, you mentioned ethnographic research, people perhaps who have a finance background, can think about market segments, attractive market segments, market needs, things like that. And then the third one, which we can’t forget, is digital literacy. And I say the word literacy very deliberately because often we think, oh, we need to go out and hire software engineers. And I’m like, no, that’s digital fluency.
I just want everyone in the organization to be digitally literate. Knowing kind of what are the tools out there and how could we use these in our day to day work would be digital literacy. And it’s really shocking how many organizations we get brought into, Andi, where the leadership team is saying, we’re going to make these investments in technology, we’re going to productize, and there are people on the leadership team who have very, very low digital literacy. So they’re not modeling that behavior for the rest of the organization.
Andi Simon: The rest of the organization says, okay, you show me first and then I’ll change, because change is literally pain. You know, we specialize in helping organizations and the people inside them change. And one thing the listeners should remember is your brain hates me. It hates to think about something in a new way. It doesn’t like the energy it needs to learn something. The oldest reptilian part of the brain, the amygdala, hijacks it. It says, go away. I’m going to hate you. I’m going to flee you. I’m going to fight you. I’m going to appease you, but I’m not going to change. And that’s just the way your brain works. It’s there to protect you from all this foreign stuff coming at you called digital literacy.
But it is a time where you probably should rethink your thinking and change your mindset. This has been such fun. You should give the audience 1 or 2 or 3 things you don’t want them to forget, because they often remember the ending better than the beginning. And we’ve had a nice beginning and I’ve enjoyed our conversation. A couple of things you want them to remember.
Eisha Armstrong: I think the biggest one, and you just brought it up, is that when we start talking about things like generative AI, the fourth industrial revolution, perhaps reducing the amount of services and delivering products, people get afraid and they think about, Am I going to lose my job? Am I still going to have value? How am I going to keep up with all the skills required? And yes, those are very valid, important fears to talk about.
But the most exciting thing about all of this is the potential for growth. I mean, imagine again, if you’re a B2B professional services firm, you can now grow faster than the rate at which you have to add headcount. You can serve new markets. You can impact more people and that can be very rewarding, not only from a financial standpoint, but also just from the personal reward that you get out of your work every day.
And so the one thing that I try to stress with the executives that I work with is, let’s talk about the opportunity rather than the change required. You know, yes, there is going to be change required, but that makes people afraid. And instead, let’s paint that vision and talk about the growth opportunity.
How can jobs become more rewarding? How can we serve more people? That’s what I truly believe. We are at the precipice of just a massive explosion in growth and if we talk about that, I think people will be more willing to embrace the change.
Andi Simon: I hope so. I know you’re a research person by background. Have you started to collect the number of services firms that have productized? Is there any Gartner research that says, hey, guys, you know, of all of those, I don’t know why percent have already started to productize. You’re running late in the process. Any idea?
Eisha Armstrong: Yeah, it’s nine out of ten, so 90%. And again, that could be very early productized services where they’re standardizing tech-enabled delivery of their services. But it’s still kind of looks and feels the same way to the client all the way up to creating new separate software businesses. But yeah, nine out of ten organizations. And yeah, if you’re not doing it yet, you are massively behind.
Andi Simon: I’m laughing. And that doesn’t matter whether you’re an attorney or management consulting firm, anything that is people-based is ready to be rethought. Not that the people are wrong or bad, but that the solutions to the problems are not going to necessarily be delivered by you and I talking about it. And I’m not going to say maybe I could have done this, but I was kidding around with my physician the other day and I said, your portal is so good. One day I’ll just have it take a picture of my body and I’ll tell me how my vital signs are. And he said, that’s not so far away. And I said, it’s not. Everything’s going to be productized. It’s very exciting. Well, this has been such fun. I should thank you. Where can they reach you? What’s your website?
Eisha Armstrong: It’s Vecteris.com. And I love to connect with people on LinkedIn, so feel free to also connect with me on LinkedIn: Eisha.Armstrong.
Andi Simon: It’s been a pleasure. And thank you. And thank you, Jennifer McCollum, for introducing us. And I think we should do a follow up in six months to see what we have seen and what’s working well, and you’ll have your third book out and I’d love to celebrate with you.
It’s very cool stuff for our listeners and our viewers. Thank you for coming. As you know, we like to take observation and turn it into innovation. And as an anthropologist, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. If you have not spent a day in the life of your customer, it’s time, because they may be prioritizing already, leaving you behind in the process, but you don’t really know what they’re thinking until you go and just hang out. They say, what does an anthropologist do? We hang out and we listen to the things that you can’t see because they can’t even tell you what they’re doing. So watch them and begin to think about what that means for you.
My books are all on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, the topic for this podcast, has won awards and been a bestseller, and people show it to me on the beach, wherever they’re reading about how anthropology can help their business grow. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is about 11 women who did just that. And our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, all of whom have simply said, of course they can and have done extremely well, and their wisdoms are very wise for all of you men and women.
And we’ve developed a program, we’ve productized the book into a program to help corporations and CEOs begin to think about how to harness the wisdom of women to optimize their business. And as an anthropologist, I was reading Gregory Beaton’s work about how everything is the opposite. You know who you are by what you’re not. And so maybe we should start seeing the benefits of difference as opposed to worrying about being identical. And I couldn’t agree more.
It’s time for rethinking what we’re trying to do with the talent that we have. It’s been great fun. Thank you all for coming. I’m going to say goodbye to Eisha Armstrong. Thank you for joining me today. It’s been a pleasure. Goodbye, everybody. Come again. See you now. Bye bye.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Hear how to answer the question: Why should your customers care? I always say, in my coaching or our leadership academies or my workshops, the more ideas you have, the more likely you will have big ones. And they come at the intersections. Big ideas are actually already in your head waiting for those a-ha moments where you might say, Wow, I’m onto something. My podcast guest today can help you do just that. Fran Biderman-Gross is going to help you see yourself through a fresh lens, feel differently about what you’re doing and why, and think about how to make some changes. We know that change is painful and we don’t always like it, but often it’s necessary to get where we want to go. Listen, learn, and share.
Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from today: * Buyers are informed. They have access to information in record speed and record time. * Informed buyers need a reason to believe. Then you must make the emotional connection to why your product matters to them. Today, purchases have to be meaningful. * People crave emotional connection. It is no different with services and products. Consumers are demanding it. They are voting with their dollars and demanding it. * Why is the world a better place with what you are offering your customers? * You fundamentally must understand who your customers are and what they want, what matters to them.
How to connect with Fran You can reach out to Fran on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and her website Advantages.net. You can also email her at getnoticed@advantages.net. and check out her book: How to Lead a Values-Based Professional Services Firm: 3 Keys to Unlock Purpose and Profit
Want a deeper dive into how to market for success? We recommend these as a starting point: * Mark Schaefer—Are You Ready For The Marketing Rebellion? * Patrick Van Gorder—Ready For The Right Data-Driven Digital Marketing Strategy To Expand Your Business? * Melissa Copeland—Want Your Business To Be Successful? Start With A Great Customer Experience * Aviva Ajmera—First Get That Great Strategy. Then Tackle How To Get It Done!
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon. I’m your podcast host, and as you know, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. I go looking for interesting people who are going to help me do that. Today is a day when we’re all on the brink. We don’t know if we’re going to soar or fall, but the ladder is there for us to climb. But sometimes we need new ideas. We need to fill our head. Remember, the more ideas you have, the more likely you will have big ones. And they come at the intersections. So as you listen to our podcast, things are going to come your way and you’re going to say, That’s a big idea. It’s actually sitting in your head waiting for it to happen, but I’m happy to share.
So I have a wonderful woman here today to help you do just that. She’s going to help you see yourself through a fresh lens, feel differently about what you’re doing and why, and think about how to make some changes because change is painful and we don’t always like it. Fran Biderman-Gross is our guest today. A little bit about Fran. She is here smiling at you, and she is going to smile through her whole time together because she is just a very happy, wonderful woman with lots to share with you.
Fran Biderman-Gross is the founder and CEO of Advantages, an award winning branding and marketing agency and among The Fortune 500 Best Places for Entrepreneurs. I’m going to let her tell you exactly what that is. The Advantages team leads clients on a journey of brand discovery that reveals personal and organizational purpose, values, and story. And Fran is just full of ideas for us today.
She also is a podcast host for Drive Profit with Purpose, where she speaks with business leaders about the importance of purpose. And, you know, purpose-driven organizations are doing better than those without a purpose. And she’s co-author of How to Lead a Values-Based Professional Services Firm: 3 Keys to Unlock Purpose and Profit, which I have a hunch is hers and could be yours. So this is a book focused on the leverage of three keys of purpose, values, and story so that you can grow and scale profitably and make a difference. Fran, thank you for joining me today.
Fran Biderman-Gross: Thank you for having me today. What a meaningful intro. What a great way to set up somebody’s mindset in how they should receive every single episode. I’m very grateful to be here. Thank you.
Andi Simon: Well, and we are as well because your ideas are fresh. And I haven’t had anyone who’s a marketing maven in a long time and there’s a push now to rethink what we do in the world of communications, storytelling, marketing, whatever those words now mean in a world where it’s not a newspaper ad or even what do you do with a press release? It’s really sort of like, what are we doing? But tell the listener about who is Fran. Let’s really set the stage around your own journey because it sets the context for what you’re doing and how you’re helping your clients and your staff. Please, Fran.
Fran Biderman-Gross: So what can I tell you that’s interesting about Fran? I’m a very curious, purposeful, intentional, resourceful human who really loves people. I say that because it’s true. While I can be labeled an eternal optimist, just ask my team, I’m always looking for the good in everything. Innately, I really appreciate when others are in that spotlight moment and they’re shining, or they set a goal and they accomplish it. I’m really there with them, enjoying not only the journey, but reveling in the success of whatever that is. And while that might seem broad, I’ve definitely chosen my path in helping others really stand out and understand how they build emotional connections with the people who give them the most fulfillment.
So, getting clear on what I call the three keys: your purpose, your values, and your story and the way that you tell it, and there’s just so much that’s so complicated when we talk about branding and marketing that I just wanted to make it simple but not easy. So it’s simple to understand that the concept of a minimum viable brand is very much based on what you believe in, why you exist in the world, and how you bring that to the organization you lead.
And if we could just get clear on that, it’s simple, just not easy to articulate. It sets such a strong foundation for everything that you’re going to do. So in terms of me, I’m just on this journey to help as many people as I can, which is really why the book came about. And, you know, I have a limited, finite amount of time and hours that I could teach a workshop, teach or speak or work with clients. So the book and the podcast are an extension of me having those great conversations so that people can further think about what their purpose, value, and story are, what their three keys are, and how to have tips and tricks to apply it to unravel this mystery of marketing. And what is branding and why is it important? And all of those complicated questions.
Andi Simon: The question: you didn’t just jump in and know those things. Were there some catalytic moments that took what you were doing and gave it in moments? Well, when you go whoosh and you go, that’s what it’s about. Is there something you might be able to share?
Fran Biderman-Gross: I think there’s a couple of light bulb moments, if you will. I think the first time I met Simon Sinek was back in 2004, when he had just discovered the Golden Circle, maybe it was 2003. He had spoken to the entrepreneurs’ organization we were at, a little marketing gathering, talking to strategists, colleagues, if you will. And I was really intrigued. And they had asked us to bring some of our best design work, and I did, and I got there early and I placed it on the corner of the table. I was hoping I would stand out and get his attention.
Everybody always likes to be called out by the teacher and given some accolades. Who would ever not want that? And I placed this incredibly, very proud, designed piece of collateral on the corner of the table. And wouldn’t you know, it caught his eye and he lifted it up in the middle of his chat and he said, This is beautifully designed and it’s great quality, and it looks like everybody else and it sounds like everybody else.
And I’m like, how do I leave? You just embarrassed me in front of about 80 to 100 people. I’m like the Marketing Maven in there. I’m like the printing princess, the girl who gets everybody noticed. And my stuff is like everybody else, does he know me? So at first I was embarrassed and sunk in my chair. I literally sunk in my chair and I wanted to leave, but I resisted that urge. It desperately took every ounce of fight in me to do that. I waited in line to kind of really unpack what he meant, because I really needed to get over myself and try to learn from something.
And then he just set me off on a path of, this is beautifully designed, but how does it speak to me and how does it create a connection versus what you’re selling and what you’re advertising on this piece? And how do I actually use it as a tool to build, to create, to activate curiosity or to spark a connection in that way? And that set off a very deep relationship for a very long time, although I dug my heels in and didn’t want to join.
But I really wanted to further develop the concept of understanding how we start with Why. Hence we got the three keys, which became the technique and the approach that we approach every person, whether you’re a solopreneur, to do personal branding and take that into an organization. And how do I work in an M&A structure and how do I bring people together and how do I help serial entrepreneurs own multiple businesses because they really have one vision in multiple missions. And how does that stack, how do they shift their story point, as I would describe it, to serve them, whether they’re in front of you VC raising money or fundraising in a nonprofit or looking for more customers to get into the funnel or further down the funnel.
And it has really become evident that many may not disagree and many, I hope, don’t. I don’t know what I just said, but I hope they don’t disagree. And I’m happy to welcome the conversations if they do. But people innately develop relationships with people they like, they trust, and have a connection with somewhere, and they feel it. And that’s a biological thing. And how do we resolve that?
And that has really been my quest: to resolve how your brain thinks but can’t speak, and help you give it the word so it validates the feeling. And to me, that’s marketing and branding all in one. And that’s the job I have to do so that we build relationships with different nonprofits, with our donors, with our volunteers, with the people we serve from professional services or products and goods. So the level of the cost of the sale might influence if it’s a bigger ticket.
We have to think more. If it’s a smaller ticket, we think less. But we build relationships with brands who stand for something that somehow are relatable to us. And even if we don’t stop to think about it, when you do, you’ll realize that you’re developing a fan, a brand fan, as I would say, or an advocate for certain brands because of not only the product, but why they exist in the world where it is sometimes a little hard to find that connection.
Andi Simon: It is interesting as I work with organizations, so we’re corporate anthropologists, as I often share a little bit during our podcast, and we specialize in helping organizations change. Sometimes they want to and sometimes they hate to because the brain hates to change. It has an idea and a story in it, and that story is your illusion of everyday life. And you get up every day and you live that story whether it’s true or not. There’s no truth.
What’s interesting in what you’re saying is that you then also surround yourself with things. And those things are a reflection of that illusionary story about who you are. You’re always the hero in your story. You’re always successful in the story. The problem is, there are always others outside of you, and whether it’s you alone, or you as part of a club or a group, humans are herd animals and we like to belong. So with humans, you’ve got this wonderful opportunity to help them feel better, make their story stronger, especially in times that are fast changing.
I don’t know how many people have said, “I’ll never use AI.” I said, “Well, it’s already all over you, you know? You can’t do anything without it.” “Quite frankly, I’ll never use ChatGPT.” I love ChatGPT, but why do you deny the future? Because it is all around you. It’s just not widely distributed yet.
And that’s asking people to help us rethink the work we’re doing with our products and services. And I’m going to let you talk a little bit about how you now help companies and their products and services to rethink their purpose, maybe to retain their values and also to begin to think about that story and storytelling when the world that they’re talking to is so fragmented. There are 250 million people with 250 million stories and channels to articulate on. And I don’t know whether TikTok is good or not, but as my book came out, somebody I knew said, are you going to be on TikTok? There are as many people creating on TikTok as there are watching it.
The world is wild, my friend. How do you help them go through the changes? Maybe there’s a case study you can share, or if not, just help the audience think through the new because it’s ready, willing and able to help you transform what you’re doing for a new world. Your thoughts?
Fran Biderman-Gross: So that is a jam-packed question.
Andi Simon: Deliberately, I know.
Fran Biderman-Gross: And a good one. The way that I’m going to begin to shape that answer is that in 2024, what you knew before doesn’t really apply. But here’s a lesson that I can say. Well, first let me explain what I mean. Buyers are informed. They have access to information in record speed and record time that we cannot argue, arguably the fastest, and will continue to get faster as we choose how we consume our media or our information.
So I’m just going to use information for now, because there’s a lot of things that we want to know on a daily basis, starting with the weather and the top news and what’s going on with our clients. And we want bytes of information. So the buyers are informed. They have access to data and facts with a click of an Enter button.
You ask a question and you will get an answer. Might not be accurate, but that doesn’t matter. We won’t debate that, but they have access to information, so there’s no more dog and pony show. The dog and pony show is, Here I am. I can’t beat my chest and go, “I’m louder and better stand out.” It has to be authentically who you are and why you exist. Why? Because in the last 15 years, I’ve had the honor of working and taking over my co-author’s lifelong work that we had started working on together. I have literally proven that people are the complete reason why businesses who merge succeed.
I digress back to the question. Informed buyers need a reason to believe. They need to make them. When they have that reason to believe, they then must make the emotional connection to why it matters to them. This is a fundamental change in the way that we communicate and are raising our children to communicate. It has to be meaningful.
We used to talk about buying stuff, and I’ll use this as a little bit of a team and family, you know, share. We used to buy things for each other and now we’ve learned, come the holidays and birthdays and celebratory days, it’s not the stuff, it’s the time and experience. They want to share things. They want to create memories to do things.
Matter of fact, just before this, you were talking about the two weeks that you and your family secretly at the end of June get together. People crave emotional connection. It is no different with services and products. That’s right. And they are demanding it. They are voting with their dollars and demanding it.
So who’s telling a better story? But it’s not the better story, it’s the meaningful story. How you uncover why you do what you do, why the world is a better place with your organization, is vital to communicate, to be able to attract the buyer the way the buyers buy. They demand to make an emotional connection even if they don’t say it. They vote with their dollars. And if you really got into a focus group with them and trust me, we have done many, many of these, especially in the last couple of years, you really get the insights of the culmination of data that I’m telling you.
People are buying emotionally, they are emotionally triggered. And the brands who are acting out and taking a stand… You’ve seen them. You’ve seen these examples. You’ve seen it with Nike. You have seen it with Ben and Jerry’s, with our ice cream. And you have seen these organizations take a stand and you’ve seen good PR and bad PR and you’ve seen outrage and you’ve seen validation because there’s something for everyone. There isn’t just one thing for everyone.
So how do you, audience members or listener, differentiate yourself in that way? Simple. Not easy. But here’s the one thing that I can tell. You can’t skip a step. Because when you skip a step, it doesn’t work. We have learned time and time again, with client after client, when we rush through building a foundational brand. I’ll just leave it as, when we skip the foundational steps, we miss something. We miss the opportunity to connect with the buyer. We miss the opportunity to understand the buyer. We miss the opportunity to understand where the buyer is, what the buyer is searching for.
So we talk about marketing and attracting these things. But at the same time, let’s put that all aside. We need to understand who you are and what they want, what matters to them. If you build your journey and you skip a step and you’re missing information, it is just another reason for them to leave the funnel and not to go further.
You know, I personally would rather attract, let’s just say I was looking for an applicant. I had a new job position. I personally would much prefer, matter of fact, this was another moment. It’s funny where my mind went here. I was at a networking event and it was all about recruitment and retention. This was a big hot button.
How do we do that? Well, they opened this roundtable discussion and they’re like, oh, well, our advertisement attracted 85 qualified people. But we got like 300 resumes. And when it got to my turn, I said, Who has time to look at 85 resumes? I’m hoping that only 12 people apply so that I can get further, deeper down into whether you are a good fit. Are you in the right place in your life, career, journey to be in this company, in this position, in this culture? Will you affect positive change?
And that spun the conversation in a completely different way. Wait a minute, how do you just get 12 applicants? Then I went through the, Hey, it’s dating. I’m not trying to sell you who we are, I’m actually trying to figure out who you are. And are you at the right stage with the right skills and the balance to fit this nucleus of an agency, of a family that we are. And are you the right fit? We can always train for skill, but at the same time, they need certain levels of skills, sometimes more advanced skills. And we just got into a whole discussion of, This is broken: writing an advertisement to sell your position is broken.
And you know what? You’re seeing it. Look what’s going on with talent in the last three years. I mean, in my industry, the senior talent is either being laid off or exiting because they choose not to have a life like that anymore. They want remote work. They want freedom and flexibility. They want to affect positive change, not the way we did before. Work has changed, buyers have changed. Recruiting has changed. Is it a good fit? Are you at the right place in your career for this juncture? And it’s just unbelievable.
Andi Simon: I didn’t mean to interrupt you. I want to follow your thoughts. As our listeners are thinking about their own, both their own journeys as well as those of their business and the products they’re selling, I’d like to create a metaphor here, because what you’re saying is that the people who work inside and the people who are our clients and their clients are really in a system, an ecosystem, and your staff can only do good jobs if the folks who you’re working with align with the basic three value, you know, purpose, values, and story approach you have. But their clients have to be in alignment as well. So there’s a long alignment thought, a visual, in my head.
They often say that the words we use create the worlds that we live in. Humans are meaning makers. And so you’re sharing with the audience the meaning that you give to both work and to the work you do in a very interesting and important way. It’s not a job; you’re part of this whole process that’s aligning with the folks who we serve, to align with their folks.
The thing that I’d like you to reflect on a little bit is, how do your clients get to know their clients better, whether it’s a customer, if it’s B2B, how do they serve them better? I’ve done enough focus groups in my life to never really want to do another one, but I’m an anthropologist and I love to observe and hang out and say, what do you do? My job is to listen to the conversations without judging them, and also without asking the people who are conversing, What does this really mean without listening to the stories they tell?
Storytelling is actually the very best way to capture the reality that they’re living. But how do you help your clients and your team better understand this changing world of buyers out there, and the channels with which they find solutions to whatever that problem is? Is that too big a question again, or is that something.
Fran Biderman-Gross: It actually isn’t. I start with, you can’t skip a step. Everybody has the courage to take a step back and look at the journey. It starts with insight because ultimately, what matters to our clients is that we understand their clients. Agreed?
Andi Simon: Agreed.
Fran Biderman-Gross: Great. So I’ve got two sets of clients I’m serving. I can’t serve one without the other. And in almost every case, almost every case, when clients come to us, they think they understand their clients. And we go through a process. To get to the right. I’m not saying they’re wrong. I’m just saying we don’t have the data to understand whether that is proof positive or reactive.
That points me on the right journey when I think about the age old questions of, how do I hire an agency? Why do I need an agency? I start with helping me understand your business and where is it going? Because you’re clear, your business objective dictates the marketing strategy and then resulting in the tactics we take. So when you think about what that is, I can’t skip the brand component because it starts with who are you? What do you stand for? Why do you exist? How is the world with a better place with you in it? And at the other end of that is, why should my customers care? Give me a reason to believe or I go somewhere else.
And there’s a lot of space between my hands right now. And if I had a bigger screen, I would give you more space. But you have to really not skip a step. So you have to get clear here. First, phase one: discovery, understanding your position and all the things I just listed. We could talk about the three keys. That is what I call the minimum viable brand. I like MVP things. Products and brands.
So I’ve taken that and said, how can we make this affordable because everybody listening is going oh, redoing a brand. It takes six months and tons of money and six figures and I’m like, no it doesn’t. No it doesn’t. It doesn’t.
We’ve created a process inside of about 10 to 12 weeks, maybe slightly longer depending on scheduling. We can rectify this. We don’t necessarily have to just create a gap analysis. We can actually create the analysis and fix things. So we actually have an actionable place to start. So in that discovery, of course, we’re going to do all the things that you think about, right?
The competitive analysis is aspirational, actually. What do my customers really want? What do I stand for? That gives me insights into what I call a brand foundation with your MVP. And the way I describe it is, like your brand is built on two layers. First the verbal, we get the verbal right? We can go to the visual and we can create translation so that the brain understands that there is a connection between them, the visual and the verbal.
And then we put a good layer in there called a brand idea. What’s the big idea or the zip code as we call it? What does that mean? That’s how I begin to make a connection and start to put that in the world. And we go to unlock the second phase, usually three, sometimes four months, could be six if we need more data. It’s always about data. Take about a couple of weeks to get whatever the campaign is up and running in real time. I don’t have to do massive, big focus groups that take a long time anymore. I can just literally go into the market and start to see how people react to messaging.
Andi Simon: That’s true.
Fran Biderman-Gross: In fact, I can even add a step. And do you know, I could probably spend three weeks doing message testing, literally message testing. If you are this type of demographic, how do you react to these things? And we can learn before we actually go to market.
So three months is not a long time when you think of the longevity of your organization. Don’t you want to get an audience message, audience message fit? Then you’ve got a strong brand that people are reacting to that have the criteria of your clients or like your clients. So then when you go into the market, you can begin to go, oh, can I talk to you, to my funnel? Can I direct you to my funnel? How do we nurture you? Where do sales come in?
Everybody gets on the phone and goes, could you take over my LinkedIn? I need to get sales there. Could you help me explore TikTok because that’s where I could sell direct now. And that’s not the answer. The answer is, let’s help me understand your business. The tactical solution has to be a result of a strategic decision that will then add value to the business.
Andi Simon: You know, I always watch our time because a half hour or so is good for our listeners, but I don’t want to cut us off yet. I have a couple of things to add to your wonderful understanding of how to build a business in this modern world that we’re in. We were HubSpot partners for a number of years, and we really do love inbound marketing, and inbound marketing makes the assumption that it is less about what you’re pushing out and a lot about what people are searching for.
Google has created a whole new marketplace, and it isn’t putting it on a shelf in a store. It’s more, what are the words you’re using to find a solution to something, to a problem. We come up on the first page of Google, thank you very much, because of the content marketing of a corporate anthropologist, a Blue Ocean Strategy expert. I can’t compete with the book, but I can be an expert. I can do culture change in New York. I can do all kinds of words that get people to come and hire us, or at least find us and want to know more about us.
That is a very neat way of understanding that. But it’s going to go even faster and farther because the content is going to have to be relevant and change. And it isn’t the channel of LinkedIn or Facebook or the website. I still like the website, I like the others, but I really love what search can do for you., but it means that we have to go backwards, outside in, instead of just inside out. Your thoughts, Fran.
Fran Biderman-Gross: You need data to do that, right? The proof is in the data because design is always subjective. And what has happened today, again my opinion, people can disagree.
Andi Simon: I agree, but they can disagree.
Fran Biderman-Gross: Yeah, agencies are so fragmented and specialized that if you know you are searching for just a Google AdWords specialist, you should hire them. But what are you giving them to work on? Is that proven in a data point? Otherwise you are chasing an unproven theory.
Andi Simon: Yeah.
Fran Biderman-Gross: And yes, I caution the audience, listeners out there who have several different agencies who are employed right now and probably doing great work.
The question is, is it the best work? Is it the work that actually is strategically tied to adding value to the company? I feel like I spend a lot of time talking about this because many don’t realize how much is buried in a marketing budget that’s actually allocated across a channel. That shouldn’t necessarily be. And some things should be.
So like, right-sizing all of that and then trying to understand the return on investment. I think this is really the bug for me. When you look at very large agencies and very large companies, they have spreadsheet after spreadsheet and depth and depth and depth. They understand their acquisition costs, their lead generation costs. They understand all of these things. And it’s a behemoth of effort to put together, to be able to actually get that.
But I really believe that small- to medium-sized companies deserve to do marketing right. And that’s the agency model that I have brought to this market for those who understand and want to do strategic marketing. I have an all-in-one solution. So there’s no finger pointing. We didn’t get the return. Why? Oh, the odd word guy. Oh the content person. Oh, this. Oh, that. It’s not that.
We have to put it all together under the umbrella and under that you start with the business objective, the marketing strategic plan with the tactical execution. If that execution on that budget doesn’t add value, you shouldn’t do it, myself included. You shouldn’t do it. Hope I answered the question. I got off on a tangent, but there’s so much wrong with things today. And we think, as business owners, myself included, we think we’re experts at everything and we’re not. Everything is so much more confusing these days.
Andi Simon: But let’s pause because I would rather us pause here, perhaps have you come back in a short time and take the conversation to the next stage, because I think that the times are fast changing. I was reading about Lenovo putting AI into their PCs to better know you, so that they can manage your virtual assistant and know when your calendar is. It would say, “Good morning, it’s time for you to get up, and these are the three things you’re going to do today.”
Oh my goodness. I do think, though, that the listeners as well as us who are in the industry of helping, you’re helping companies develop their business, build them, build your staff, so they have purpose. It is not inconsequential. It is very meaningful. And humans are meaning makers. We decide with our eyes and our heart, not our head. The head sort of justifies it.
When you understand the human being, then all of what Fran has been saying today takes on a, What do you do with it? You know, I get it. I understand humans. Now, what do I do to build a business that will thrive in fast changing times? And I’ll tell you, it’s a good time to pause, step back and think about that question.
What is it you are doing? Is it more of the same? Maybe cheaper? Are you beginning to really understand the data about your clients and your customers and where they’re going? I find this all the time that my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, about which this podcast was named, was about seven of our clients who had gotten stuck or stalled, and they didn’t see what was right in front of them. And I must tell you, whether it’s a focus group or it’s an anthropologist, it’s a mindset on the client side to say, oh, that’s what you’re seeing. Because if they don’t see it, it has no meaning at all.
I can’t tell you how many times I bring back what I saw. And they say, well, that’s not true. I said, okay, come look with me. And then they go and they hang out and they listen and they say, oh, that’s what you heard. I said, yes, but that’s what they’re saying. And so it’s a time to rethink how you think about your business and how you’re running it.
And Fran is giving you some really good insights today. Why don’t you tell a little bit more about the Advantages company so that we don’t leave the audience thinking, oh, how do I find her? And what do I do if I need her? Tell me about your company.
Fran Biderman-Gross: Absolutely. I’d be happy to: Advantages.net is how you can find us. I’ll throw that into the chat. And we are a purpose-driven agency that does marketing so that you can focus on the things that you are meant to focus on. What does that mean? It means that we’re an agency, a strategic-driven agency that has all the capability or a hybrid of capability to work with the vendors.
You have to ensure that we bring value to the budget that is spent, so that is meaningful to the business. Now, technically we’re strategists. We’re designers or writers. We’re directors. And everything in between. So that what you see on the inside matches what you see on the outside.
Andi Simon: But your purpose is how to assemble those tactical and practical things into a strategy to help our clients. These are the same words that we use: see, feel and think in new ways so they can grow. And I think it is very exciting to share what you do and how you do it, because it is a way of lifting us up off the brink. If you want to soar, then maybe you need to rethink the way you’re telling your story, even what it is, and how you’re beginning to push it out.
So let’s wrap up. Fran’s information will be, of course, on the podcast blog that we put on SimonAssociates.net. You can find it there and we push it out when it comes out. But it’s been an absolute pleasure to have an opportunity to share with you what Fran Biderman-Gross does and what advantages her company can offer if you’re thinking about how to rethink your own company and where it’s going and how to get there.
I’m going to wrap with a little push on my new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. It’s a great book. It’s got 500+ wisdoms of 102 women, each of whom wants to elevate and celebrate women in business. And what’s so exciting about it is that people turn a page and change their lives. And I know that sounds interesting, but we actually had a woman write about it on LinkedIn: “I was starting 2024 and I was reading the book, and it inspired me to rethink my year.” And I had a client who was a wonderful client, and she had yellow marked the whole book, and she said, “Wow, I’m going to change the way I’m running my business.”
How can a book do that? Simple and easy. It’s a wonderful way to do it. You can find Women Mean Business on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or your local bookseller. And don’t forget to look at the website WomenMeanBusinessBook.Com to tell you more about the authors, the origin of the book, the 500 wisdoms, and the 102 wonderful people inside.
So thank you, Fran, for being with us today. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you, all of you who come and send us great ideas and bring us wonderful people to share and share the website and the podcast so we can all share our wisdom. We love to help others grow. Bye bye now. Have a wonderful day. Remember my wisdom: Take your observations, turn them into innovations, and boy what you can see. Bye bye now.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
She was absolutely determined to succeed. Hear how you can be too! I always want to bring interesting people to On the Brink with Andi Simon. You will love this interview with Maryles Casto. Her journey has been extraordinary, largely because of her ability to listen carefully, understand people’s needs, and create solutions that are part of her personal style and amazing business savvy. Thanks to an unquenchable can-do attitude and sheer hard work, Maryles made her travel agency the go-to travel company in Silicon Valley, serving the biggest names in tech and beyond. Listen to her story, get inspired, and please share.
Watch and listen to our conversation here About Maryles: “Asian hospitality with Yankee business sense” Born in the Philippines, Maryles Casto is a pioneering travel industry executive and entrepreneur with 47 years of experience founding and leading companies to profitability. A former Philippine Airlines flight attendant, Casto created and helmed Silicon Valley-based Casto Travel, the West Coast’s largest privately owned travel management agency. (Casto Travel was frequently ranked among the Top 100 Fastest Growing Businesses in Silicon Valley and San Francisco, and ranked second in revenues among Silicon Valley women-owned businesses by Silicon Valley Business Journal in 2006.) In 2019, she sold the company to Flight Centre Travel Group of Australia. She is also the founder and owner of Casto Travel Philippines, Inc., as well as chairwoman and CEO of MVC Solutions, which provides travel industry businesses with back-office support, accounting and other services.
Maryles has served on many business, civic and philanthropic boards, including the Commonwealth Club of California. She has been International Chair of the Committee of 200, an invitation-only group for the world’s most successful entrepreneurs, and she is a founding member of the Northern California branch of the International Women’s Forum.
You can connect with Maryles on LinkedIn and her website, or email her at maryles.casto@castotravel.ph.
Key takeaways from our interview: * Business is all about anticipating the client’s needs. * If you can’t believe in what you or your company is, how can you go out and sell? * It’s not what you do. It’s what the clients are asking for. * “There is a hole in the cloud, and whatever I do, I always have a hole in the cloud to get out.” * It’s time for us to be kind to each other.
More stories of women who dreamed big and achieved success in business: * Debra Clary—Yes, You Can Become The Curious Leader You Were Meant To Be! * Roseann and Clara Sunwoo—How Did Roseann And Clara Sunwoo Build A Successful Women’s Fashion Brand? * Gemma Toner—An Exciting Woman Took A Moment Of Inspiration To Transform Other Women
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: We’re giggling. But welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m here to help you see, feel and think in new ways. My job is to get you off the brink, and our podcasts are here to bring people to you whom you might not know or meet people who have stories to share that are going to help you change your story. Now remember, every time you hear someone’s story, your own brain begins to shift things around until you go, oh, I can do that! Or wow, what a great idea.
And so the whole idea of a podcast, whether you visualize it and see it or you listen to it, is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can soar. And that’s why I bring wonderful people here, and people bring wonderful people to me. To be here today is just going to start out a little bit different. The co-author of our book, Edie Frazier, who is on the bottom of our screen here, she and I wrote Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And it’s been quite a journey. And as Maryles Casto, who’s come to us through Edie has said, is that turning a page and changing your life is really amazing. But that’s what we wanted to do. And I wanted Edie to introduce Maryles to you, because she’s very important in her own life.
And then Maryles will talk about her own journey so that you can learn from it, because there’s wisdom here that is going to be difficult to get from reading her bio or looking at her great website. So this is an opportunity for us to share. And in sharing, we can all grow together. Edie, thank you for joining us. Please, I can introduce Maryles Casto when you’re done more formally, but this is so special for you. Please tell us about your experiences with Maryles Casto and why it makes you smile so.
Edie Frazier: A joy to say thank you to a dear friend, Maryles Casto, because we go years without talking to each other. But when we get together and reminisce, we think of the qualities of a leader, a true trailblazer, and the best of friends. You know, Maryles wrote her book A Hole In The Clouds: From Flight Attendant to Silicon Valley CEO. And she did it. And she built this major travel business where she was the icon, and she knew all the founders in Silicon Valley who trusted her, respected her, and built with her.
And she built that business across the US and world and runs the business now in the Philippines from her home there. But she gives joy and support, and she’s the best you can find and firm of that word trust and respect and caring and she lives a legacy. So Maryles, I just want to say thank you for the friendship and know your spirit is in each of us who have gotten to know you, adore you, and we’ve got years ahead to salute one another. But I just say to Maryles Casto, you are the true blue of the hole in the sky.
Andi Simon: Oh.
Maryles Casto: I love you, too.
Andi Simon: Edie, that’s beautiful. Maryles, do you want to respond to Edie before she takes off?
Maryles Casto: That’s what friends are for is our song. Keep smiling and that’s what friends are for. And, Edie, I just want you to know, can I plug this? This is my book.
Andi Simon: Yes, of course.
Maryles Casto: That’s for you. And I want to talk about why this cover. We can talk about it later because it’s natural. It happened. And the world needs to read that book on the sky and the hole in the sky. We love you, buddy.
Andi Simon: This is such a wonderful way to introduce you. And maybe we will start almost with the book for a moment. But for my listeners, you know, before we jump in, I just want to give you a little context. Maryles Casto was born in the Philippines and lives in the United States and has for most of her life. She’s a successful leader. But when you hear her story, she really is an explorer. And there’s something about the way she has tackled her life and built something really special that’s so important to share.
But here’s a quote that I think captures it. And remember, I’m an explorer. Sometimes I’m a philosopher or a futurist. But Maryles, listen, I care a great deal because we’ve been to 37 countries, not to the Philippines yet, but this is the way we discover. I’ve yet to see a problem where the best solution is to hide or be ignorant. It’s only through contact with other cultures and peoples, and in their contact with us, that we can hope to bridge the divide between people of the world.
As an anthropologist, my job is to help people see and feel and think in new ways through a fresh lens. And today, that’s just what we’re going to do. So I’m not going to read your bio, but I’m going to ask you to talk to our audience about your own journey. You started in the Philippines. You came here. You capture it much better than I could ever.
And then what we’ll do is, we’ll sort of migrate into the lessons learned, the things that you, the wisdoms, you want others to understand. The kind of sharing person that you are and the kind of glorious life that you’ve lived. Maryles, please. Who’s Maryles and how is this book been sort of this triumph of what’s happened? Because we’ll come back to your book.
Maryles Casto: Okay. So let me tell you a story. I was born in the Philippines, and I was raised on a sugar plantation. So that was my background with my family and I think my inspiration really comes from my mother because she was always so kind and because we were privileged. My friends were all the workers, the children of the workers. So I developed a kind of relationship where there was no class basis for me. I mean, everybody is the same. And so I really valued that.
But also, my father was my closest friend. And I learned a lot from my father as well. And my father was very competitive. I remember one time, and this was when I was growing up in the Philippines, we have a fair every year, and so I was entered as one of the contestants. I wanted to be the queen. I wanted to win. It really started about wanting to win. We arranged it. There were three candidates. And the big dinner that night, it was a gala dinner, and they were contributing money in the ballot box.
And I was watching my father, and I was competing with the Chinese woman. The father was very wealthy, and the father kept putting some money into the ballot box and my father was doing nothing and I thought, doesn’t he realize I need to win. But what I did not realize, and this is my father’s competition. You never let the competition know what you’re doing. But he had already positioned somebody who was standing very close to the ballot box. And at the very last minute, maybe a minute before it closed, he drops this whole bundle of money. That’s when I became the queen.
Andi Simon: Uh, that was not deception, but that was smart.
Maryles Casto: Smart because he knew that he had to do it this way. And so I learned that, and that I was one of my first lessons in my business. I can be very open, but also never give, you know, everything that you can in the competition. I never liked schooI because I always wanted to be outside. I get very bored, especially when they tell you to do number one, number two, number three. And all I could think about is, why not do number ten? What do we have to go through this whole process of developing?
And I also couldn’t pay attention. I didn’t realize at that time that my world was outside and I was very mischievous. And I remembered one time when they were trying, it was a Catholic school run by the nuns who were very strict. Of course, the rebel in me already said, I don’t like to lose. I don’t like this, and I don’t like you in a way. I was in class and I was doing something mischievous. And anyway, I was reported. And so they punished me. They punished me by walking around with this garbage can on my head.
And so what did I do? I went into the classrooms and then I started dancing. So they didn’t know what to do with me. But I created the whole fiesta. So I was already learning through all these things that I was doing, and I think I applied a lot of that in my business world because I never saw the challenges. I always just went. And I thought that, you know, I’m going to try it.
So I was in the Philippines. I ended up being a flight stewardess, and at the time, being a flight stewardess was the top of the field because when you were traveling, you were entertaining. And I learned so much when you were a flight attendant at that time. It took two months to train. You had to learn about the client’s needs. It was very much anticipating the client’s needs. A passenger came on board. That was your responsibility to make sure that they remembered what the flight was about. And you remembered everything about the passenger.
So I was very focused on the passenger’s relationship and how they felt. I was in the Philippines a long time, and I had never dated an American, and I was introduced to this American. And needless to say, after two days, I decided I was going to marry him. Of course, he didn’t know anything about it. But when we have a mindset, he couldn’t say no because I was determined. So needless to say, after that he fell in love with me, of course.
And so we got married and I had to break this news to my father. Ah. My father. My father’s Spanish, my mother’s half Swiss. And he thought that this was just going to be one of those little romances. He had no idea that I was going to get married and move to this country. And it just broke his heart. But I was determined to come to this country, and I did. But my husband did not have any money. We had money, but my husband did not. And so it came to fruition when we were on our honeymoon, when all of a sudden we had to go on that $5 a day. Remember that book?
And I thought, this is not going to work, because if I was hungry, I wanted to have this restaurant here. Now, we had to walk for 20 minutes to find a restaurant that was in that book. I hated that book. And then I realized that this was changing my life. And when we arrived in the United States, I had nothing. You couldn’t fly as an airline stewardess if you were married. So I knew I had to do something.
I remember one time we were going into this grocery store, and my husband was showing me comparison shopping, and I thought, why? And even now, I’m sorry to laugh. No, but, honey, I’m reading my book, and I’m laughing because I remember all this. I remember looking at this mayonnaise and he would say, well, what mayonnaise should you buy because of the ounces? And I thought, I have no idea. All I know is, it’s my level.
But I think my message is, I was having so much fun. Everything I did, I enjoyed. I was too passionate and so finally he said, you have to find a job. And so I thought, well, I don’t have any experience. So he said, well what about Avon. And then I read something about Avon. So I thought, I can do that.
So first I had to learn about cold calling because I’d never done anything cold calling. So we would practice. And this is so much fun, I mean, reliving what we had to go through. So I went on a cold call and I was petrified, I wouldn’t get out of the car. I would knock on the door. Finally, I ended up buying all my things. And so I did not make any money and that was not my job. So I quit that and then ended up working for Macy’s in the gift department, wrapped all the gifts, and I was so bad they fired me.
So I thought, I’ve got to do something. And then a girlfriend said, why don’t you become a travel agent? And that is how my world opened up. And when I started working for agencies, my first client in one agency that I worked with was Intel, and they were just a hundred people. And then I had GE. And so I started working in the corporate market. But I didn’t last long because the owner was horrible. One thing I learned is, he did not take care of the employees. It was all about him and his family. But none of us were able to participate on trips.
So I learned a lot about what not to do from him. And so, my girlfriend and I were running the corporate department. She was running the vacations, and I was getting so frustrated. And my husband said, why don’t you start your own. I was petrified, I’d never done anything like this. But, you know, you try it. And with $1500 each, we partnered together and we opened this agency.
But I did not tell anybody where we were going. I did not tell our clients. And so we opened this little agency in Los Altos. We had no money. We had Repo Depot, I mean, you know, name it. It’s the same Silicon Valley how it started up, holding the hole in the ceiling. And I waited and waited and there was no clients because I had not told anybody. So I decided I was going to go cold calling, things that I hated the most.
But I was dressed to the hilt, I had on my high heels, and I started walking around in the Silicon Valley park, and I was walking. And then I saw this gentleman that was standing, uh, it was a company called Rome Rollin. And of course they were bought by IBM. Very, very big now. And there was the owner, I think was in there in one of the corner suites with a glass window. And he was looking at me because I was pacing back and forth and he thought I was a street walker. You can not say the first street walker. And all of a sudden my heel broke.
And so I’m limping towards this receptionist and I said, I need to see that man in the corner. And at that time, in the valley, you don’t need reservations, you don’t need appointments. Everybody could just walk in. So I walked in and he came out and then we became friends. And that was really the start of the whole Silicon Valley movement, because he was one of the founders. And through him, I started getting more and more business and then I got Steve Jobs and I got Apple. So it went crazy. And then again, I could talk about my story, but I know that there might be questions you might probably want to ask me.
Andi Simon: Well, but you see, in some ways you’ve given us a nice foundation for how to begin the challenges of, I don’t know how to do that, and I really don’t like to do this, but I tried that. And next thing you know, you and your friend and you still have to find some customers. And this isn’t sort of it. They don’t drop into your lap. Although I must confess that if you hang out, all of a sudden things begin to happen. You were talking to them and learning from them.
You began to craft something other than booking a ticket on a plane to go somewhere. And what I loved about what you did was that you created something far bigger. And I have a hunch you began to see things that they would ask for and you’d figure out how to do. But I’m putting words into your mouth. So how did you grow? Because you didn’t grow a little. You grow with a whole different mindset completely.
Maryles Casto: It was so fast. And I think there were so many. We were growing so fast. We couldn’t control our growth. And, you know, since I was, and we talk about how you felt as being the first woman because there really was no one, there was no other woman. There were men in my industry, but I never even thought about it. All I knew was that I was not going to fail. I was going to do whatever it took to be successful, and I was damn good. I was very, very good. And I believed in that. Yes, because if you can’t believe in what you or your company is, how can you even go out and sell?
So I knew I would be pitching. I’d go in and before, I would pitch directly to the vice president or the presidents. But as it changed, you have to go through purchasing, you have to go through all this. So the dynamics change. But on a 1:1, give me the CEO. And I was a CEO and I would always say, I’m in the same seat as you are. If I founded this company with $1,500, and I would have this argument with Steve because I said, if you weren’t given the $200 million, where would you be? So I was very respectful of them.
But I also thought, you know, tell me when you have started your company on your own with the seat of your pants, and then I’ll respect you more. So don’t get any baloney about all this, you know, because anyway, I just went ahead. I just focused and I thought, I will make this happen. And again the growth.
But then we also suffered because we couldn’t perform as much as we wanted to because we were making mistakes. And finally I said, stop it. We’re not accepting any clients. We have to figure out what is wrong with our company, because there definitely was something wrong. We were not delivering the product we talked about. We were not paying attention to the customer.
So I decided we would clean house and we were hiring people we shouldn’t have hired, I learned. And so gradually when we started saying, we can’t accept the account, we can’t accept. And then they respected me for that. And then gradually we started fixing. We did our own training. I’m very focused on customer service. For me it is my religion. And you have to pay attention.
And it’s not what you do. It’s what the clients are asking for. And even long before that, I started doing profiles. Each of my clients that had this black book, I would write everything. Who wanted coffee, what kind of newspaper they had, every single detail. This was before anybody thought about putting it all down, but I did.
And then I also came up with a new service. I decided I was going to do my own Visa passport. I did not want anything touching my client except me. So anything they needed, not just the travel part of it, it’s how you get to the airport. So I had airport service, people with uniforms. They’re all in the yellow necktie. I had a limo service that would pick up all my VIP clients. They didn’t have to ask me. I anticipated every move they made because my responsibility is, one, they call Casto.
I was responsible for them from when they left for the airport or when they left their home until I brought them home. I was sitting on that flight with them. I was getting in the car with them. I was in the hotel with them. I thought about only the clients, so. And I made sure everyone in our company understood that we don’t survive without our clients, but we have to think ahead and anticipate whatever they need.
Andi Simon: Let’s think about it, though, because nobody came and said to you, you’re missing a major part of the business. You’re selling. You weren’t selling anything, really. What you had done is become a colleague of your clients, right? An extraordinarily important part of their experiences. You were and it’s really a beautiful story about, it’s not a travel ticket. It’s not a limousine. It’s this whole experience where I don’t want you to have to worry about a thing. And I understand the whole. So you didn’t even have to tell them, do you want this or do you want that? You said, I got it all mapped out for you. You don’t have to worry.
Maryles Casto: One call.
Andi Simon: One call. Now, how did you begin to scale? Because often I have entrepreneurs who arrive at 10 million or 20 million and want to scale to 100 million, and they’re not sure how to do that. You scaled and you started to talk about training. I mean, that’s really what we’re talking about here, is scaling. How did you do it?
Maryles Casto: Well, I started buying agencies again. Recession, remember when we had this major recession. And I thought, this is an opportunity, I can buy now. And I decided I was buying agencies, but strategically, I had 15 offices all over the United States because it had to be a very strategic move. And by the time, we had offices everywhere, but we were also very strategic. I did not want to just be Silicon Valley. I would be putting all my eggs in one basket. So my offices were in San Jose, in Palo Alto.
I decided I needed a different kind of a base. I needed the banks. I needed a government contract. So I went to San Francisco and expanded my business there. And then I decided I needed 24 hour service because a client doesn’t end at 5:30. When they travel, what happens? You know, they have to have a way of calling us. I didn’t want them to call the airlines. They were my clients. They were my responsibility.
I couldn’t grow in Silicon Valley anymore because we were all looking for the same, we needed people. So I was having lunch with one of the senators who had come to the Valley for a business opportunity, and he was the senator from South Dakota. And he said to me, you know, South Dakota, we could use some business. So I had never been to South Dakota, Rapid City. So I flew there with him. He said, let’s just check it out. So we put a blind ad to just say that we were coming for interviews. We got 500. Work for you.
Andi Simon: Wow.
Maryles Casto: There is a market here. But what I wanted to do was put my training there. But I also wanted my 24 hour service. No one was offering 24 hour service at that time. The airlines were, but not any travel agency. So these were all the things.
I shouldn’t say I, because there were a lot of people involved. But I would say I had the vision that you have to look at and say, what now? What else can you do? How can you enhance your service? But what is it that the clients need? And so as we were developing the corporate market, there was no one who could touch us in the corporate market because we had every account there was. And I also worked very closely with a lot of the venture people. So when they were funding companies, of course, for travel, I owned it.
Andi Simon: Branded you, right? They endorsed you and you just came along.
Maryles Casto: Yeah. I would say, you know, you’re funding this company. How do you know they’re protecting you? You know, travel is the second largest expense. Working with me, I will guarantee you, because I also bought stock for all these companies because I thought we have to be investors as well. So even if it’s small. But I felt that every flight I was looking at that as a shareholder.
Andi Simon: You are so wise. And so it’s fascinating listening to you because once you got going, nothing stopped. You just keep figuring out pieces. You said something important, though, and it’s not a bad time to sort of migrate into the team. How did you support yourself around you with smart people? And what were you looking for in that team? They gave you the ability to multiply. They were your multipliers. What kinds of folks came in and how? One of the things that I read was that you treated this like a family.
Maryles Casto: I wanted them to feel proud. I bought my partner out after two years, I felt like she was so worried about expanding. She was so worried about losing money. And I thought, you know what, we’re still very small. If we lost money, if we went belly up, I want to build it up myself. I don’t want to drag her down. So I bought her out.
And then we had to come up with a name because at that time, I think we had nine employees. When I bought her out, she wanted to do the vacation side only. She was not interested in the rest of it. So I had to come up with them and I said, okay, what is our name going to be? Because our original name was Travel Experience.
And so we had this powwow and they said, well, why don’t we call it Casto, it’s your name. And I thought, no, I have to be very careful because if I give you my name, you have to guarantee you’re going to back it up. It’s not just about me, it’s about all of us. So I then created this where they had to belong to this elite group, which happened to be customer travel. So I had all of us in uniform. They helped design this uniform, and we would go to all the functions in our uniform.
Andi Simon: But you know the symbolic meaning of that. You know, you’re a meaning maker and the symbolism is not inconsequential. They belonged. People wanted to belong. And therefore they knew how to behave, how to think. And they took it home to their families, and they were part of something much bigger than just having a job. Correct?
Maryles Casto: Yeah. I made them very proud of being part of us. I said, it’s not me, it’s us. The Casto is you together. Of course, everybody thought it was Castro. And they look at me and say, oh, Castro. No. There’s no answer. But you know what it was. I mean, we had so much fun. We really did. We put events together and the company would come in with different hats. We come in with different costumes. And, I couldn’t wait to get into the office. And they felt the same way. There was so much joy. Lots of sorrow, too. I mean, we cry. I mean, we all shared a divorce. But we were together.
Andi Simon: Yes.
Maryles Casto: And that is very important.
Andi Simon: Amazing, amazing, amazing because you did it and it worked. And it became something well beyond itself. I want to get to your book, but also you grew it and then you added new services and then you began to see it grow, and then you finally sold it. What was the impetus?
Maryles Casto: Well, you know, when we started the business, about five years later, we got a big offer. This company, and in fact, this is a funny story because this company was a very large company, and they were interested in buying us because they wanted to get into the Silicon Valley when it was just starting. It was getting a lot of attention. And so, they made an offer and I said, no, I didn’t want to, but anyway. And he and I had a good relationship because when Intel became such a big company, purchasing people came in, and then they decided I was too small now. And they were concerned about my capacity to service them.
So he was very, very large, one of the largest agency in the United States. So they gave him the business. So we partnered together. And so that’s when he really wanted to take my business. And me, I said, no, it wasn’t going to work. So that was the first venture. And the second one was a company that was from Omaha, Nebraska, another very large company. And at that time we had Andy Grove, who became chairman of Intel. And Andy became a very good friend because, again, he was a client and he became a friend because I knew everything about his travel. And he was so paranoid that if I wasn’t going to take care of him, something would happen to his travel.
So the second offer came in and we said, okay, we’ll take it seriously. The gentleman flew in from Omaha and somewhere, somehow, I just did not feel that they were the right partners. They didn’t understand Silicon Valley. And I just felt that it’s not going to grow. It didn’t have the same spirit, they weren’t willing to be, it takes a different personality. So we thought the deal was done. And at the last minute I had to call them to say, okay, you know, we’ve arranged it. I picked up the phone and I couldn’t say yes. I said no, and oh my God, both my son and Andy were furious with me because I said no.
And I said, it just can’t work. So I knew that we had to do something. And because of my son, the offer came in and it was a really good offer, and we knew that the time would come that we would have to exit. And so we sold it two years ago. We sold it a month before the pandemic.
Andi Simon: Oh, my, timing is everything.
Maryles Casto: And now I’m a rich woman.
Andi Simon: But, you know, I have a hunch you’ve been rich through this whole journey, haven’t you?
Maryles Casto: Yeah, I have, I have, yeah.
Andi Simon: You know, the financial richness is nice, but at the end of the day, I’m not sure you worked for work’s sake. I think you worked for the absolute...
Maryles Casto: Love of it.
Andi Simon: For the love, you know, for the joy that you gave others, for the way in which you helped their lives do better. Am I misreading that? And this was spiritual and almost religious on your part, right? Correct.
Maryles Casto: Yes. It was, it is, and it still is. I still communicate with the people that, when we sold the company, we always kept the Philippines. The Philippines when we were growing so fast and we knew that we had to expand. I wanted to expand internationally, and I knew it was either India or the Philippines, and I knew the Philippines because I was from the Philippines and I knew the customer service, all the technology driven, because our business was very technology driven. I knew it was about personal travel and I knew that hospitality. It’s like somebody said, it’s Asian hospitality with Yankee business sense. That’s how somebody describes me.
Andi Simon: Well, that’s terrific, but that’s a great image of it, right? I mean, because you blended all of these together in such a way that you created a whole new way of doing things. But, my goodness, it worked, and it’s really brilliant listening to you talk about it. Talk about the book. Was this a way of capturing this and having a legacy as a book about this journey that you just shared or something different?
Maryles Casto: You know, it was something that I knew that I felt like there was a book in the making. I just never got the chance to sit down. And this was after we sold the company, and I was in the house and I was meeting with some friends, and just all of a sudden it just came to me. I had to write my book. I said, I’m ready for that. And I thought the story had to be told.
I wanted other people to read what I went through and how much I have enjoyed my life. And I wondered, my grandchildren, maybe not now, but later on when they’re older. Of course I dedicated the book for them, but I don’t think they fully understood the challenges. But when they’re grown. And maybe one day when they have a business, they can look at my book and say, you know what, Grandma did something. And I have to share the coverage. And remember, I was covered.
Andi Simon: Yeah. Tell us about the cover.
Maryles Casto: This cover was an actual one. And when I decided when we were doing so well and I thought, we needed exposure now. We wanted people to know more about Casto Travel, not just in the Valley, but other areas as well. And so I had this girlfriend who started her own business, a PR business. And so I called her as a brand and said, listen, I’m ready to do something. I want the exposure of Casto more globally or more internationally or more regionally. And so she said, okay.
So San Jose Mercury News was going to do an article and the photographer said, I can do your shot, but I don’t want to do it here. I have an idea. Meet me at the airport at 6:00 in the morning and we’ll do a shoot. And I said, oh my God, what is this about? So I met him at the airport and he had this truck, and in this truck was this desk. And he told me, bring the thing that you really want to put on the table. And I said, okay. But I thought, well, maybe it’s just at the airport.
So I brought these two doves or two birds, because Casto Travel is all about birds because that was my logo. I want to fly. I want to spread my wings. So I brought these two birds and then I thought, where are we going? He said, just follow me. And at that time, nobody can tell you, there’s no security, no nothing. So he drove this guy and his truck to the runway, and he put the desk in. He said, no, we’ll stay here. Let’s get this all organized and let’s wait for the plane. I said, wait for the plane. It took three hours to get just the angle.
Andi Simon: Oh, God.
Maryles Casto: I’ll put it up. I thought I had to use this book.
Andi Simon: Just come in so we can see it, put it up again and hold it there for a second. Ah, so that’s you. And that’s the plane over you and this story is as beautiful as the cover of the book. We would not know why that book cover is so important, but that is cool. That captures you, doesn’t it?
Maryles Casto: And, you know, the flying was because my father, when we were little, when I was little, and I was growing up, my father had an airplane. He had a small airplane, and he would be traveling from different farms. I always loved to fly. And so my father and I would go up flying. And he would say, okay, Maryles, watch. Look for the hole in the clouds so that we could get in and we could fly higher, and then we would do our maneuvers. And that was in tribute to my father. There is a hole in the cloud, and whatever I do, I always have a hole in the cloud to get out.
Andi Simon: Yeah, but your whole life has been finding that hole in the clouds and soaring up through this to get on top. This is something. Sometimes I ask the people I’m interviewing about some lessons that you wish someone had told you then. But I think that your story isn’t easy to capture in a lesson or two. Unless there’s something you think your younger self wishes somebody had told you. Is there something that you can share?
Maryles Casto: Oh gosh, somebody told me and so many people told me things. I don’t know. For me, it’s maybe kindness. For me, it’s not a word we use a lot, and it’s time for us to be kind to each other. And you don’t have to be a jerk. No, really, and I, this was my actual experience. I was invited by United Airlines to go to the Academy Awards. At the time, we were big producers of United. And so I went.
And then that night, this was Pretty Woman. Remember that, Julia Roberts? Anyway, we were staying at this beautiful hotel, and when we were being picked up in the limo, they were invited too, Larry Allison was invited with his girlfriend, and she was just fantastic looking. And then John Chambers from Cisco, so we were all going together. And when we got down, the limo was there, the door opened, and Larry Allison came in and he closed the door. He says, I don’t share my limo. This is an actual story. I don’t share my room.
And so we just looked at him because at that time, you can’t find any limo, especially Academy Awards night. So he drove off and we had to find another limo. And that’s when it’s the yin and yang. And I said, you know, you really are a jerk. And here’s John Chambers. He was so sweet. I mean, the difference between the personalities. And again, I just feel like, if you could just show a little bit more kindness and don’t get into your ego. The ego is nothing. What does it really mean?
Andi Simon: Yeah. That’s beautiful. The joy that you can give, the kindness that you can show elevates you and someone else. And then an act of kindness that stayed in your mind as a moment that you never want to do again. How can I be kind? Correct.
Maryles Casto: Okay. And that’s why I think I’m doing what I’m doing now. I suppose I mentioned to you that I’m starting my foundation because that is what it is really about. I’ve been so fortunate. And look at me. I’m now into my old age and I love it. I love what I’ve lived, and I mean that I love it. For me, aging is not a disease. It’s something to celebrate. How many of us can say, I’ve lived it.
Andi Simon: I know, but that’s so important because it’s true. We’re at a point now where we can be. We don’t have to become. We can just enjoy the moment.
Maryles Casto: Exactly. I love the whole process of aging. My body is what it is now, and I celebrate everything I have. I celebrate my hair. I no longer am going to dye my hair because I just love being white. I’m doing it. And I think that probably my message is just as we all go through our lives, enjoy the moments you have and don’t worry about the rest of the nonsense. There’s so much of that.
Andi Simon: I’m going to I wish I didn’t have to, but we’re going to say goodbye and I’m going to thank you. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you, Edie, for introducing you. But I can understand why her friendship and yours transformed both of you over time. Because Edie is quite remarkable. This has been a gift to me and to our listeners. So thank you.
So I’m going to say to our listeners, thank you for coming to On the Brink. I know that today has taken you off the brink. And then we’re going to all soar. But the message is kindness and acts of kindness bring joy. So let’s not just be nice, help each other also. In our book Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success that Edie Frazier and myself have written with 102 women about their wisdoms. And like what you heard today from Maryles Casto, the wisdoms help change your own lives.
And I will tell you that every event that we’re running, people share their wisdom a little like this podcast. And when they do, they are changing. And I’ve had people who keep coming back and saying, let me tell you what I heard and what I want to share again, and what I care about and what I’m now becoming. I had one woman who had yellow marks on the whole book, and I went, oh my goodness, and couldn’t wait to show me her yellow marks. She says, I’m a better leader today. And I went, man, can a book do that? It can. And Maryles Casto, thank you for joining us. So I’m going to thank you so much. Remember everybody to take your ideas, your observations, turn them into innovations. And you too can soar, like Maryles says.
Maryles Casto: Bye bye.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Curiosity is contagious. Curiosity can be learned. So be curious! Sometimes, we meet people who make us pause for a moment and ask how we are building the life that we want to live. It is not about mimicking their lives. It is about understanding how they have stopped what they’re doing and begun reflecting on whether this was a life they wanted. That’s what happened when I met Dr. Deborah Clary. We met through the Women Business Collaborative (WBC). Deb and I were involved in WBC and found ourselves sharing our life journeys in different discussions. She was the right person to bring onto our podcast to share her career and how she has taken a turn in new directions. As you listen in, think about your own life.
Watch and listen to our conversation here An accomplished woman leader not afraid to learn new things Dr. Debra Clary is the Founder and CEO of Elevascent, a personal growth and performance development company focused on helping individuals and teams accelerate growth through curiosity. This experience comes from three decades of executive leadership roles at Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniel’s and Humana. In addition, Dr. Clary is also an author, global speaker, playwright, off-Broadway performer and an award-winning film producer. She holds a doctorate in leadership and organizational development from George Washington University, and received the Ralph Stone Leadership Award for exemplary leadership. She is also a board director for Health E-Commerce.
In our podcast, we talk about women discovering their purpose and not letting others define them. And we share Debra’s life story as a model for you, our audience, to think about as you step along on your pathway. Own your career, and enjoy it.
Contact Debra You can connect with Debra on LinkedIn, Facebook, and her website, or email her at debra@debraclary.com.
Want more inspiring stories of women owning their careers and taking charge of their lives? Here are some of our favorites: * Shellye Archambeau Is Unapologetically Ambitious And Shows Us How We Can Be Too * Kerry Flynn Barrett—Learn Why So Many Brilliant Women Have Ditched The Corporate Ladder To Start Their Own Business * Sarah Soule—Busting Those Stereotypes of Women * Lisa Caputo—Smashing The Myths Of What Women Can Accomplish
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon. I’m your host and your guide. As you know, I’m a corporate anthropologist, and I specialize in helping organizations change and particularly the people inside them. And I really like to go looking for people to interview. And many of you send me people to interview. So it’s so much fun to share. I look for people who can help you see, feel and think in new ways.
And I use those words intentionally because you decide with the eyes and the heart. So how something feels is going to help you decide how to think about it. But what matters to me is that unless I can open your mind to see opportunities, possibilities, and be curious, you are going to see what’s all around you and opportunities are all there. So today I have a wonderful, wonderful woman to come and share with you her wisdom around curiosities.
Debra Clary is a Doctor of Organizational Design, but she’s also someone who has culled her skills inside corporate and has now launched herself outside corporate as an entrepreneur to help many companies begin to see themselves through a fresh lens. Very anthropological. Let me tell you a little bit more about her, and then I’ll ask her to talk about her own journey, because she’s had a really important juncture point.
Right now, Dr. Clay is a purpose-driven leader with a compelling message to share. Her enthusiasm lies in inspiring leaders and organizations in achieving business success through their enhancement of strategic alignment, team dynamics, and fostering a culture of curiosity. Now, that is a really big idea, bringing a wealth of experience from her roles and operations, strategy, marketing and people development at prominent companies such as Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniel’s and Humana.
Debra brings incredible business insights and her dedication is evident in her commitment to working with leaders who aspire to elevate their impact and contribution to their organizations. So she’s now writing a book, and she also is performing her own one-person play called A Curious Woman. And she did it Off Broadway, and I watched it streaming, and you can watch it coming up, too. And she’s doing it again in Louisville, and she is having a wonderful time celebrating her own success as a curious woman. Debra, thank you for joining me today.
Debra Clary: My pleasure.
Andi Simon: You know, it’s always fun when we share our stories. We’re storytellers. We’re also storymakers. And when you and I did our fireside chat at the Louisville Leadership Center, we really had a good time getting to know how we each have grown and how our own experiences have opened up opportunities for us. But for our listeners and our viewers who aren’t familiar with you, talk about your own journey and why this is such an important point for you. It’s a tipping point, opening up a whole new world of opportunity. Who is Debra?
Debra Clary: Oh, well, that’s a big question, Andi, but let me let me take a shot at this is. I was the first person in my family to go to college, graduate from college, and went on to get a Masters in Business. And my first job was driving a route truck for Frito-Lay.
Andi Simon: I always laugh when you tell me that. You say it so much better than I could.
Debra Clary: And my parents were like, Did you really need six years of higher education to do this? But I also recognized that it was an opportunity to start with a great company and they started everybody on a route truck. And the one question I asked was, Are there other women doing this? And they said, Yes. And I said, May I ride with that individual one day to see if I think I can do this? And then I did.
And so I spent nearly a decade at Frito-Lay, not on the route truck. I spent about nine months on the route truck in the city of Detroit and then evolved into sales management and then marketing and actually was one that was on the team that launched Flamin Hot, which is now a $1 billion brand for Frito-Lay. It’s where I really learned how to market to consumers. How do you understand what consumers need?
And from there, I was recruited away by Coca-Cola. I spent almost a decade at Coca-Cola in marketing roles where I got my experience of global marketing and how to really manage a global account. From there I went to Brown-Forman, where I was the VP of Strategy. I worked in the wine division, which was a really tough job, Andi. I mean, I had to spend all this time in Napa Valley tasting wines, trying to understand positioning. It was really tough, but I got through it and then I went to Jack Daniel’s.
I got really intrigued with culture because I had worked for Fortune 40 companies, and then I went to work for a publicly traded company, but it was still managed by the family, the Brown family. And there were just different dynamics, different cultures that I didn’t quite recognize because of my background. And so I said, I’m curious. I want to understand people and culture. I want to understand how I can adapt to different cultures and how I can become a better leader.
So I was reading the Wall Street Journal in which George Washington University had an ad in there that they had this cohort program for people that wanted to better understand leadership and culture. Exactly what I was looking for at the doctoral level. And so I went to my boss and said, I’m really passionate about this. And he said, Then go do it. And they completely supported me and funded that.
So while sipping wine in Napa Valley, I was also going to school full time. So full time mother, full time employee and then a full time student. And how I did that is, once a month I flew to Washington, DC. I went to school 12 hours Friday, 12 hours Saturday and then I flew home Sunday morning, so that I could be with my children. And I did that for three years. Wrote my dissertation on women in leadership. I just had this real passion on what are the differences in women leadership and how we can continuously support women to step into these really big roles.
And then I was recruited away by Humana, a healthcare company. And at first I said, There is no way I’m going into healthcare. I mean soda and snacks and now alcohol. Healthcare just did not seem to fit me. But, they said, You have an opportunity that we are starting a Leadership Institute. With your marketing, your business, your experience, and now with this academic degree, you’re the perfect person to help us change our culture. And I was really drawn to those words of changing culture because I had experienced different cultures, but I wasn’t quite sure how to do it. I had the academic side of it. I had some opinions, but now I was going to take this step and really put it into play.
And so for my first nine years at Humana, I ran the Leadership Institute, and we did everything from assessments to development of our top executives. And then we got really brave and we took our learning outside of the company. And we spent time in Europe and in the US and offered how to understand the healthcare system because we really recognize that if the healthcare system is going to get better and have better outcomes, everyone in the community needs to be connected to it.
And we started that with a simulation and we had much success. And then what happened is, we at Humana, we got a new CEO and he called me one day and said, Can you come talk? He said, I’m going to be doing some significant changes on my team. They’re going to be off boarding and onboarding, and I need you embedded in the team. You know, 24-7. Your role is to be with us all the time.
And so for the last eight years I did that: helping them understand team dynamics, leading their strategy sessions, all their off sites and really about team dynamics and how you get better as a team. And then that drives the business results. And then about a year ago, I said, Wow, I’m still curious on how I can scale my thought leadership outside of the corporate world. And so I made this transition about a year ago.
The number one thing I did, as you mentioned: I wrote and performed a one-woman show. I never did that in my life. Had never performed in that way. I’d done keynotes, but never an actual play. And I surrounded myself with people that knew how to do that. And did a sold out show in New York. And now we have one coming up here next month in Louisville, Kentucky. So that is a little bit about my four decades in corporate America. And now my launch to scale my knowledge and my curiosity to other organizations.
Andi Simon: I bet. I mean, there are many things that we can talk about today, but I bet that the audience, our listeners, are curious about a couple of things. One of which is, how do you grow like you have grown? Because the changes in places have not simply been taking what you were and applying them. It’s changing who you were when you’re applying them. This is an ongoing theme.
I’m finding the people who are in my new book within Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success are all talking about owning yourself and owning your career. Can you talk a little bit about it and then we’ll talk about your curiosity, but I’m also anxious to share with people what you discovered as you moved from being a Frito-Lay route driver all the way up to where you are at Humana, embedded in the organization to help build better what goes on. How does that happen?
Debra Clary: That’s another big question, Andi. It’s not a simple question. I think the things that helped me was that my parents taught me the value of hard work and an education, and that’s what I did. I was not afraid to work hard. I wasn’t afraid to do the assignments that were given to me. And then couple that with, I am a learner and I’m curious, and I certainly recognized that there was a lot I didn’t know, but I was bold enough to ask other people, people that I was admiring or people that had an expertise in that.
I love inquiry, I love to have dialogue and discussion around that. And I’ll give you an example. When I was with Frito-Lay and I was a regional manager. And I had two babies. And I was just trying to figure out how to manage this new world of motherhood, but wanting to climb the corporate ladder. This woman from headquarters at Frito-Lay flew into Detroit, and my job was to take her around and show her the market and have a conversation about that. And she was just, like, beautiful. Her hair was in place, there was no spit up on her. You know, her suit. I mean, she was just like, she seemed like she had it all together. And I also knew she had children.
And on the way to the airport, I got up enough nerve to say, How do you do it? Well, how do you guide me to do this? It’s a struggle for me. I’m trying to figure out how to be a good mom and how to be a good executive. And she said, Oh, it’s really simple. It’s two words. Get help! What do you mean, get help? She says, Have someone that you trust to watch your children. Have someone clean your home. Have someone mow your lawn.
I mean, she was just going on and on, and I’m like, But I don’t have that kind of discretionary income. I’m making it. But, I’m also trying to save money. And she said, If you don’t invest in this, you’re never going to get to the next rung because you’re always going to be stressed and worrying. And from that point forward, I have said, Get help when I don’t know how to do something or I need support, get help. And I recently read this book called, Who Not How. Are you familiar with this?
Andi Simon: I’m not. It sounds good.
Debra Clary: Extraordinary book about when you’re an entrepreneur and you’re starting an organization, or even if you have an organization, it’s not about you doing the work, it’s about you getting people that can help you do the work that you don’t have an expertise in that. So building a website, doing software development. Why are you investing your time in that? You need to hire the right people to do that. And in the last three weeks, it’s made a significant change in my outlook and my vision for, I can do this. I can actually do this.
Andi Simon: I love it, I love your story. You said that’s a big, big question, but in some ways you answered it with two words. It is not you alone. It’s a team. You said that you took a dysfunctional team and you helped to build a team. And if the team does better, you all do better. So there are two wisdoms already that have popped out, one of which is that it’s not a solo job. Even orchestras need to back up the soloist. I mean, there’s a whole lot of orchestra going on and sometimes a conductor.
But the other part is that it’s okay to learn along the way what can be done to help you get somewhere, as long as you have a sense that you’re on a journey to go somewhere, and that’s what’s really interesting and makes me curious about why you didn’t stay inside corporate. You might have felt a little stuck or stalled. You ventured out into, I’ll call it, a foreign territory.
Having been in my own business for 22 years and dealing with entrepreneurs all the time, I taught entrepreneurship at Washington University. It is a foreign country for people who have been inside a corporation. So as you’re entering this, it needs a new language. It needs new habits. It needs a new mindset.
You know, share with the audience about what you’re trying to develop, because you’re clearly curious about trying to help people who need to be more curious, become more curious. Right?7 So let’s talk about this whole vision of where you’re going. Would that be okay?
Debra Clary: Yeah. So let me start with how I got on this path. I was sitting next to our CEO in a meeting, and he leaned over and whispered to me, Do you think curiosity can be learned or is it innate? And I said, I don’t know, but I’m curious. So that next week just happened to be the 4th of July, and I was going to be on holiday that whole week. I just dug into research on curiosity so that following Monday I go back to work. I lean over to him and I say, It can be learned. And that was that, right?
I know all this about curiosity, but that was that. And about a week later, I’m talking about serendipity. Somebody that ran a very large division for our company called and said, We’d love for you to come do a keynote in Austin. Can you do it? And I go, Absolutely. What do you want me to talk about? And they go, You can talk about whatever you want to talk about…curiosity.
And so I’d already done all I had prepared myself for something to come. And so I developed the information in terms of what happens to your brain when you’re curious. You know, I want people to understand that this is a neuroscience perspective on that. Demonstrating that curiosity is good for the brain. And then I shared about the difference between children and adults. These are studies: why children ask questions and why adults don’t ask questions.
And then I said to him: And here’s what the benefit of it is. And then I taught them some practical things that they can do to be curious. And that was that. I thought, Okay, this will probably never happen again. And then it snowballed. And I think I spoke to over 10,000 people at Humana and then started speaking externally. And I thought, Wow, people are curious. They want to learn about curiosity. But more importantly, they want to be curious. And the thing that I found, Andi, is that curiosity is contagious.
Andi Simon: Yes.
Debra Clary: So if you are around curious people, you’re going to be curious.
Andi Simon: Debra, let’s talk some more. This is so much fun because what happens if you have this contagion called curiosity? Are good things happening?
Debra Clary: Absolutely. And, you know, being a scientist, I wanted to know how to be able to measure it. What are the levels of curiosity? So I partnered with a group out of MIT to say, I want a valid assessment that can demonstrate the level of curiosity at an individual level and a curiosity in an org. level, because if we have data, then we can make change.
So I mean, the data suggests that when you’re curious, people begin to feel seen, valued and heard. And isn’t that a lovely thing if people feel that. What does that do for engagement? What does it do for problem solving? What does it do for innovation? Well, all of that increases.
People want to work in a curious environment. They want to work for a leader that is open to your ideas, that your ideas matter. That’s what employees want. That’s what associates want. And so not only now can we talk about it from other studies and why it’s important, and here are the benefits from it. We can actually measure your current state of curiosity. And then we help you to figure out what are areas that you can get better in to help you drive this within your organization.
Andi Simon: It’s such an interesting word because by and large, I doubt there’s an MBA program with a course on curiosity, is there? I’m not aware of it. So it isn’t as if we are thinking about this in the training that we’re giving aspiring next generation business people. And I doubt when they walk into HR, people ask them, Are you a curious person? They’ll ask about their skills and how they like to get along. And are they collaborative, perhaps. And are they, you know, take charge and directing?
But curiosity opens up a very different view of the world. It sort of challenges the imposter syndrome. It’s okay not to know, and it’s okay that we can figure out what is important by simply figuring out what’s important. And that becomes very important. I often work with organizations going through fast change, either machine learning or changes to their clients or robots or hybrids. Humans hate change, their brains fight it. The amygdala says, Go away. You know I’m going to fear you, I fear you. I don’t want any of this cortisol flying around in your brain saying, Get away. This is bad news stuff. And you’re saying, Can turn this all into beautiful oxytocin, where I’m having such fun learning new stuff and growing, which is really important. Am I right?
Debra Clary: Yeah. It’s like, bring on the dopamine. You know that you get that when you feel like somebody cares about you because they’re asking questions and they’re suspending judgment. You know, that dopamine is hitting.
Andi Simon: And bring on the dopamine. Love it.
Debra Clary: I’ve never said it like that before, but that’s what occurs to me. So what we also know from a neuroscience perspective is, the brain is a machine and it is designed to keep you safe. And so there’s this thing called fast pass matching, meaning that when something comes up, your brain wants to go to a solution as quick as possible because our ancestors were in danger. So you need to take action. And what we today have to guard against is not fast past matching. If it sounds like it goes really quick, I have someone step back and say, Wait, maybe there’s another choice, maybe there’s another option.
Going back to your question around an interview: you don’t ask people if they’re curious. However, you could ask them questions like, What is the last thing you learned? What is something that you’re working on that you don’t know right now? And you can begin to get an idea if that’s something that they’re interested in learning.
You can also figure out what is their tenacity to stay with the project because, you know, things don’t go smoothly all the time, especially when you’re being really innovative. And what is your ability to be determined and to stay with it? That’s also something that you can measure.
Andi Simon: Now, I bet you that it doesn’t matter if you’re an engineer who likes to put things into boxes, or you’re a marketing person who likes to be creative. That curiosity can be for both of them. It doesn’t matter much what the nature of your mind is. If you open it up to see new things and unexpected things, you can expand the way an engineer can see the data boxes and creativity is already looking there.
And sometimes my creatives have trouble settling down on something. They see too many things, too many ideas. Entrepreneurs have a terrible way of having more ideas than they have the possibility of actually implementing. But that’s okay. And part of the learning process. One entrepreneur said, I needed a Type A to organize me, or if not, I never got any ideas done. And so you need to know yourself, but you also need to let the ideas flow so that you can grow. And this is a growth strategy.
Debra Clary: Absolutely. I was recently working with a client who is an engineer, and I was asking a series of questions, and I could tell he was getting really frustrated because he wanted the pattern. He wanted to get to the solution. And when I realized that, I had to share with him: We are going to get to an answer and we are going to make a decision. But this very period of time right now is about exploring what’s possible so we get to the best solution. But when we decide on that, it is go and we’re going to get it done.
And it was just like this huge relief on his face. And my point is, is that you have to kind of understand who you’re working with as you’re pacing and leading them. I mean, ultimately, you want people to be able to take action. You want them to feel good about the solution. And of course, that translates into two business outcomes.
Andi Simon: Yes, I know, but for humans, ambiguity is the most dangerous place to be. You can be black or white, but they don’t like gray. It can be red or blue, but not purple. And when we are adverse to the ambiguity, we miss all the opportunities because they usually pop up betwixt and between, don’t they?
Debra Clary: And when that occurs to me, which has been happening a lot lately as I’m starting up this company, I’ll remind myself: You don’t know the answer. But Deb, you’re going to figure it out and you’re going to have people that are going to help you figure it out. And that just takes my heart rate all the way down and says, well, that’s right, this is a mess. And we’re going to get to it.
Andi Simon: Yes. And there it is. Kay Unger from Kay Unger Fashion Designs, who’s done wonderful creative things in the design and fashion industry for many years, said something to me the other day that she sees things in pictures, and of course the brain actually sees everything in pictures.
And so what she finds is that once she has a problem to solve, she puts all the pictures out and watches how they come together, almost like solving a puzzle. And I share that metaphor for you and the audience, because it’s a very interesting way to realize that is, in fact, how the brain likes to work. It likes pictures, it likes to see and visualize.
And I actually gave my leadership academy pads of paper and colored pencils and said, Now you’re going to draw yourself a year from now so you can visualize where you’re going, because if you can’t see it, you’re never going to get there. But if you can, even if it’s not right, you’ll begin to take the small, curious steps to see how to move along. And you can redraw the picture. But without one, not much can happen because you get stuff stalled.
Debra Clary: Absolutely. I think that is so powerful. What Kate said around that our brains do think in pictures. And if you think about it, I was in France this year and I spent time in the caves where the artists were. It’s just so extraordinary what these men and women did during the Ice Age and how they communicated was through these pictures and that has been passed down to each of us in terms of first pictures and then the spoken word and the written word came so, so much later.
Andi Simon: Of course, but Gutenberg came much later. But that was 35,000 years ago. And they were pretty sophisticated because they brought their pigments from long distances away. And their sophistication in the pictures were amazing stories to be told and shared. But, you know, before that the cave paintings weren’t and then all of a sudden they were. And I often wonder, how much was that we haven’t really been able to find because we haven’t found the artifacts with them and where they were located. But it’s an interesting story, and we can’t quite decide if the humans did it or the Neanderthals did it because they were sharing the same territories together.
Debra Clary: Yes, absolutely. And you probably have seen this recent finding in, I think it was Germany. As an anthropologist, I mean, you and I are of the same minds. We come from a different way, but it’s like getting curious enough to understand and go deeper and say, well, what about this? Well, this doesn’t match. How could this particularly match? I mean, every day to me is fascinating. It’s just when I keep my mind open, it’s just fascinating.
Andi Simon: You’re having fun, aren’t you?
Debra Clary: I am having fun.
Andi Simon: Good. Let’s talk a little bit about if people want to learn more about you, where would the website be so that they could find you?
Debra Clary: Yes. So it’s DebraClary.com so just my name and they’ll see the services and the consulting that I offer. But they also have a free curiosity assessment. So they click on that link. They’re going to get their score on their current level of curiosity.
Andi Simon: Oh let’s say that again. So if you’re curious about your curiosity go to DebraClary.com and download the survey there. And it’s a short version. It’s not the long one she might give you in your organization, but enough to give you an assessment of your curiosity. And I bet you’re curious about your curiosity. Once you find it then the question is, what do I do with it? And then you can get back to DebraClary.com. And she would be delighted to talk to you about how you take and convert curiosity into opportunity, because that’s what it’s really opening for you.
So on that note, I’m going to wrap us up for today because I’ve had such a good time. Last note, one or two thoughts, Debra, that you want to make sure they don’t forget.
Debra Clary: That curiosity is contagious. Curiosity can be learned.
Andi Simon: Good. That is wonderful. So for those of you who came, whether you’re watching or you’re listening, it’s always a pleasure. Send along those who you would like me to interview on our podcast. We have over 380 done and there are many more in the queue coming, and they’re all really, like Debra Clary, extraordinarily helpful to help you get off the brink.
And if you’re on the brink, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways, which is what we’re going to do. Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, is available at Barnes and Noble and Amazon. But I will tell you, I’m learning that a book has an energy, a force, and it’s when the reader opens that book. Debra and I did a program at Louisville Leadership, and we had a ball with 50 women who couldn’t get enough wisdom out of our wisdoms and who wanted to share wisdoms. That was really cool, wasn’t it?
Debra Clary: Yes.
Andi Simon: So on that note, my friends, let us know how you are doing. Send us emails at info@AndiSimon.com and we look forward to hearing from you. Have a wonderful day. Goodbye and thank you so much Deb. It was a pleasure and I’m sure everyone else has enjoyed it as much as I have.
Debra Clary: Thank you Andi.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Hear how when you allow life to unfold, you find that miracles happen I first interviewed Dr. Srikumar Rao in July 2023 and was so deeply inspired by the wisdoms he shared with us that I wanted to have him back so he could teach us more. And he does. The title of his new book is Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots, in which he offers solid tools we can use to let go of the mental chatter that gets in the way of seeing what’s possible. The universe is benevolent, Dr. Rao says, it’s your friend, and when we understand this, that’s when we can change our story and thus, the direction of our lives. Are you ready to make a change, today?
Watch and listen to our conversation here Some of Dr. Rao’s wisdoms which you can apply to your own life * The most important thing is not what you’re doing but who you are being as you do it. Too often we get hung up on the doing, and we completely miss the fact that being is much more important than the doing. * Allow life to unfold. And as you do, you find that miracles happen, and they happen on a regular basis. * We never experience life the way it is. We always experience life according to the story we tell ourselves about it. * When you change your thinking from the universe is indifferent to the universe is friendly, your experience of life has such a tremendous transformation. * Open yourself up to possibilities. * The universe is benevolent. The universe is your friend. Recognize that it’s your friend. And the more you do this, the more signs you will get that it in fact is your friend. * Your job in this life is to recognize who you really are and cast yourself free from this cage in which you have ensnared yourself. Trust yourself and recognize that the door to your prison is always open and unlocked. All you have to do is open the door and step out of it. * Why does the universe give you stuff you don’t want? Well, the universe doesn’t give you what you want, but gives you exactly what you need for your learning and growth. * We all have mental chatter. And the problem is not that you have mental chatter, the problem is you identify with your mental chatter. So sit back and observe your mental chatter. Observe yourself feeling worried. Observe yourself feeling anxious. And as you create that distance, you no longer have your mental chatter. You’re the observer of the mental chatter. Then it loses its ability to take you to places you don’t want to go.
To contact Dr. Srikumar Rao You can reach out to Dr. Rao on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website, The Rao Institute. Watch his TED Talk here and email him at srikumar.rao@theraoinstitute.com.
More inspiration for finding joy and purpsoe on your life journey: * Blog: Time to Add Gratitude to Your Life—And Your Company’s Culture! * Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! * Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose! * Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon. I’m your host and your guide. And as you know, this podcast is designed to help you get off the brink. The one thing we don’t want you to do is get stuck or stalled. But you can begin to understand how you can change. And that’s what we like to help people and their organizations do.
So today, I have a wonderful gentleman here, and Doctor Rao did a podcast with us earlier, last July in fact, that was just a hit, but he’s got a new book coming out. Actually, it’s out and I have been reading it and you will love it. Let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Srikumar Rao.
He is a creator of creativity and personal mastery. His bio doesn’t fit a bio. It’s a wonderful story about a life well-lived. He’s a speaker, a former business school professor and head of The Rao Institute, and I urge you to take a look at that online because it’s full of rich opportunities for you to begin to see, feel and think in new ways. And I use those words, but they mimic the words he uses.
He is an executive coach to senior business executives, and he helps them find deeper meaning and engagement in their work. He also talks about the fact that work isn’t work. And I love the idea because I love to work, and people say, when are you going to retire? I say, I’m never going to retire. Why is work bad? Because we define it as something that is not fun, but work isn’t work. Work is something that gives us all kinds of things, purpose, meaning, joy. What could it do for you?
My last thought today is to make sure that you understand Dr. Rao has programs and coaching that you can enjoy because they are joyful to help you begin to become the kind of person that you’d like to be. I’m going to call you Srikumar.
Srikumar Rao: Works just fine.
Andi Simon: Thank you for joining me again. It’s really a pleasure.
Srikumar Rao: It’s my pleasure, Andi. I had such a blast the last time you interviewed me that I was positively looking forward to this session.
Andi Simon: For our audience, watch out, here comes some really wonderful, wonderful stuff. Give the audience some context, though. Who are you? A man of your journey and why was this book? The book is called Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. Now when you buy an ebook, that’s how I can show you the book. And I did buy a hard copy, but it isn’t a hard copy. And as I’m reading it, I think you’re going to find it wonderful. What is the context for this book and who are you? Why should they listen?
Srikumar Rao: Who am I? As you mentioned, I’m an executive coach, and I have a very well defined niche. I work with successful people, mostly entrepreneurs, who have already done very well for themselves. But they’re driven. They want to have an outsized impact on the world.
But at the same time, they have an explicitly spiritual bent that they would like to infuse into every area of their life. They know that life is about more than getting the biggest toys, or the most expensive toys. And there’s something deeper, and they want to bring that into all parts of their life. So that’s the sandbox in which I play, and to the best of my knowledge, I’m the only person who’s playing in that particular sandbox. I may be wrong, but I’m not aware of any others.
Andi Simon: Well, clearly it’s not a red ocean of lots of competition pushing you away, is it?
Srikumar Rao: No there isn’t. By the time people come to me, they’ve already done their homework. They’ve listened to my TED Talk. They watched many of my videos on YouTube, and they know they want to work with me.
Andi Simon: And when they do the kind of work you like to do with them, can you give us some ideas?
Srikumar Rao: We have conversations. We have deep conversations, and I have an unusual take on coaching. So let me explain that. In my view, the only thing you ever do in life, Andi, is you work on yourself. A benevolent universe has given you many tools. Your husband is a tool. Your daughters and granddaughters are tools. The business you run, the clients you have, they’re all tools.
You want to do the very best you can for your clients. You want them to feel: Gee, hiring Andi was the best thing that I ever did. But in the process of doing that, what you’re really doing is you’re working on yourself. You want to be a great wife. You want to be a great mother. In the process of doing that, what you really do is you work on yourself.
The only thing you ever do in life is work on yourself. Now the universe has given you wonderful tools and running a business is a Swiss army knife of tools. You use that skillfully, but you never lose sight of the fact that in using these tools skillfully, what you’re really doing is you’re working on yourself. Does that make sense to you, Andi?
Andi Simon: Yes. Maybe because it requires you to be reflective of what you’re doing, how you’re doing it, and what the impact or the outcome is.
Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. Because the most important thing, Andi, is not what you’re doing. but who you’re being as you do it. And too often we get hung up on the doing, and we completely miss the fact that being is much more important than the doing.
Andi Simon: I’ll stay on that for a moment. I don’t want to lose track of why this new book and how it fits. But as I hear you, you work with successful people who may or may not realize how they have become who they are. They may not be happy with where they are, but they don’t seem to have a toolkit to begin to take them to the next place. And that is a big theme that I’m finding that people find themselves either in retirement or transition or job change or career growth, and it’s being done to them instead of them owning their life and who they are, something that you have found as well.
Srikumar Rao: Absolutely, yes. Because too many people, Andi, go around trying to make life happen.
Andi Simon: Forgive me for laughing.
Srikumar Rao: I love life to unroll, unfold. And as you allow life to unfold, you find that miracles happen and they happen on a regular basis.
Andi Simon: Well, you and I were talking about serendipity, but miracles are a different word. Similar? Your early conversation about a path through life, I think, is so valuable to think about for our audience, who’s either watching you or listening that the steps aren’t necessarily, you can’t necessarily see them, but you can begin to live them.
Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. You know, let me share something with you, Andi. If you ask people: Are you happy? Most of them will say, Yes, I’m happy. Remember, these are successful people already, but we define happiness too narrowly. We define happiness as there’s nothing really bothering me right now, and there are actually some things that I like, or I’m looking forward to watching a new Netflix series or having dinner with a friend or something like that.
That’s a very low part. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about, do you feel radiantly alive? Do you feel so full of gratitude that you feel as if you’re bursting? Are you not walking, but joyously floating through the air, hitting ground every 100ft or so. Is that your experience of life? And if that’s not your experience of life, why not? Because that is your nature.
So how do you reclaim the joy you felt as a child, when you could spend an hour watching a dog chase its tail? Why have you lost that? And how can you bring it back to your life today? That’s what my coaching is about. And the wonderful thing is that when you’re in that space, your business and whatever else you know just floats effortlessly and you accomplish more than you could ever have dreamed possible. It just happens because you’re not trying to force things. You’re allowing the universe to unfold.
Andi Simon: Let’s dig deeper into that. Marissa Peer is really a renowned hypnotherapist who often talks about the fact that we live the story in our mind. And our mind also loves to go to pleasure, not pain. Even if the pain causes pleasure, like narcotics might. And the habits take over and you don’t even know that you’re habit driven. You think you have free will.
And so this complicated human where we want to take and know our own selves and take ownership of it, determine our careers, determine our life, give it more intentionality, a purpose, isn’t that easy. And so the question becomes, how do you change the story, modify the habits, begin to not simply just wish, but to begin to actually feel that gratitude, that happiness.
I don’t want to add my ideas, I want to hear yours because our listeners do. But there’s a way of taking where you are. You may have your house, you may have your car, you may have your club. You may think you’re happy, but take it to a whole next level where you are. Every day is a gift, and you wake up happy to be there.
Srikumar Rao: And the short answer to that, Andi, is, you have to work at it. Because we have been programmed, we have been conditioned, and we are so programmed and conditioned that we don’t even recognize that we have been programmed and conditioned. It’s true. And what we have is, we’ve got a lot of extraneous thoughts going on. I call it mental chatter, and mental chatter is always with you. It’s so much a part of your life that you don’t even recognize you have it.
You know, the kind of thing that goes: Oh, drat my secretary screwed up again, and should I keep her or should I fire her? And I’m sick and tired of having to go through these small snafus that keep coming up, which she should have handled. All of that is mental chatter. We live our life defined by our mental chatter, and we never recognize that we’re living a life which is defined by our mental chatter and not by what is really happening internally to us.
But one of the first things that I do with my client is, I get them to understand that this mental chatter, which you ignore, is actually creating the life that you live in. So the first step is to be aware that there is this stuff that is happening. The first step is to recognize that this is happening and this is really running your life. And when you do that and you become aware of your mental chatter as opposed to being carried away by your mental chatter, you start to say, hey, you know, the world isn’t what I thought it was. It’s something that’s different. Yeah, that is the starting point.
Andi Simon: With that in mind, I don’t like to tease my audience, give us something a little bit more illustrative, concrete to take from it. Stop the mental chatter because when you stop it, then you’re going to fill yourself with an opportunity.
Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. Let me share something which I’m sure some of your clients and many of the people listening to this podcast can relate with. I was teaching in London Business School and I had a student who was an investment banker and a very successful investment banker. There were many problems in his marriage. Because he was an investment banker, he was working long hours. And because he worked long hours, he missed many family occasions, dinners. You know, his son’s first piano recital and stuff like that. And his wife would get very upset at him. “You said you’d be back and you weren’t.” And she accused him of not caring.
From his perspective, the very fact that he was working long hours at a job that he didn’t particularly like was evidence of his caring. And obviously they were able to maintain the lifestyle that they did because of the income he pulled in from his job. So the very fact that he was working long hours was, in his mind, an expression of caring.
When she laced into him, he would get defensive, they’d have massive fights. And yet it was just a very uncomfortable, uncomfortable situation. And they were rapidly heading towards divorce. And then in my course, somebody suggested to him that, look, when your wife is lashing it to you for not caring, what she’s really saying is, honey, I miss you. And I wish that I was with you or you were with me.
Totally not convinced but he agreed to try it. And the next time he was late and his wife started getting mad at him and accusing him of not caring, instead of reacting the way he normally did, he said, Honey, it must have been really tough on you. I’m so sorry. Which is so different from what he usually said that she was taken aback. And what would have been an entire evening quarrel petered out in 30 minutes. And as he continued doing that, and each time that she got angry at him or started to get sarcastic, he would simply say, I love you. And I realize it’s very tough on you, I will try to make it up.
And gradually their bitter quarrels faded away. They didn’t entirely resolve the situation, but it became something to be handled as opposed to: this is going to lead to the end of our marriage. I was about to say that’s the way in which we’re always telling stories to ourselves. And we don’t recognize that we’re telling stories to ourselves. We believe this is the reality.
Andi Simon: Let’s stay there. I’m making some notes. In the stories, we’re always a hero. Stories that we’re telling ourselves, we’re always the hero.
Srikumar Rao: Yes.
Andi Simon: Right. And so the story you just shared is a beautiful one. Where he was right. She was wrong. She was right. He was wrong until they stopped being heroes to themselves. But literally, he just became, in the words he said to her, caring about how she was. It deflated all of the competition, the animosity. What a beautiful story to share and think about. Yeah, because it’s not complicated. It’s just, you know, change the story and change your life.
Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. What we don’t recognize is that we never experience life the way it is. We always experience life according to the story we tell ourselves about it. And most of us never understand that this is what is happening, that it isn’t reality. It’s the story we have told ourselves and which we believe without ever recognizing that it is a story, and we have the opportunity to change the narrative. And what I’m very good at, is helping people understand that and to change the narrative.
Andi Simon: That leads very nicely, though, into your new book. Tell us about the timing, the pacing. What was a catalytic moment for another book. Modern Wisdom, Ancient Rootshas a purpose, and there’s something at the end of it for you to use to self-assess. But the context is important here because as the listener thinks about their story that’s guiding their life either toward happiness or toward less than, it’s an opportunity to begin to rethink who am I and the story I’m living and what am I thinking. Please, what was the motivation for this book and tell us about it.
Srikumar Rao: A book, Andi, and you can understand this, being a multiple times author yourself, is like a baby. You know, it comes to a point at which it has to be born. Yes, that’s what happened with this. I wanted to, as you know, I’m an executive coach and people ask me questions. And I noticed that there was a great deal of similarity in the questions. And this cuts across countries, cuts across culture, cuts across ethnic and other backgrounds.
They’re human problems, not problems related to any particular occupation, country, or religious or ethnic background. So I figured that if I put this down, it would be a help to people to understand that. And some of them, of course, might want to go deeper. And if so, they reach out to me and we discuss what I can do for them.
But the idea is to give them solid tools, and the heart of it is to understand that the world we’re living in is not a real world. It’s a construct. We build that construct with our mental chatter and our mental models. Now, this is hugely liberating because if the world we’re living in is not real and you don’t like it, then you can deconstruct the parts of it you don’t like and build it again.
But what do you do if the world you live in is real, and you don’t like it, you’re screwed. But if it’s not real, you can change it. So how do you go about doing that? That’s what my coaching is all about. And some of the tools that I use are given in that book Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. And I’ve tried to illustrate it by means of stories, because I find that stories bring it home very, very powerfully. This is a story I shared with you about the investment banker and his wife. And, you know, they were able to make almost a U-turn.
Andi Simon: Now stay on that. I want to talk a little bit more about some of the chapters in there but we often say that we live an illusion. The story creates an illusion that guides our day but isn’t real. And the only truth is there’s no truth. It’s very hard for people not to say, this isn’t real. Well, sort of, but the pen is only real enough when you write with it, and something happens but it’s hard to understand that some of them, the stories that you have in there, though, are really very important for thinking about who am I and what am I doing and why am I doing this. Can you share a few of them? I’ll say the short chapters, but there are a couple of major points.
Srikumar Rao: Here’s one. Now, how do you think about the universe? Einstein said that the most important question you will ever ask yourself is, is the universe friendly? Now we respect Einstein because he was a great scientist, but he was also a philosopher who had a very intimate understanding of how the universe worked. And Einstein said, the most important question you will ever ask yourself is, is the universe friendly?
Now, there are some people who believe that the universe is distinctly unfriendly, and the sole purpose of the universe is to frustrate. The vast, overwhelming majority of us believe the universe is neither friendly nor unfriendly. It’s indifferent. The universe doesn’t know you exist and couldn’t care less. So here you are going around doing your thing. There’s a universe going around doing its thing. Sometimes it seems to work with you, sometimes it seems to work against you. But essentially it’s a random process.
What if that wasn’t true? What if the universe was aware of your existence and the universe was well-disposed towards you? Why does the universe give you stuff you don’t want? You want to go on vacation and the universe gives you pandemics and lockdowns. Why does the universe give you stuff you don’t want? Well, the universe didn’t give you what you wanted, but gave you exactly what you needed for your learning and growth.
Like you’re a small child and you want a tub of ice cream, and the universe gives you fruits and vegetables, and you don’t want fruits and vegetables, you want a tub of ice cream. But the universe through your parents gives you fruits and vegetables. It isn’t until you reach a much higher level of maturity that you can say, thank God I got fruits and vegetables rather than a tub of ice cream. What if the universe was exactly like that?
That is a mental model, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out it’s a superior mental model. And regardless of whether the universe was friendly or not, if you believed the universe was friendly, your experience of life would be a whole lot better.
How do you adopt this mental model? And the idea is recognize that it’s a superior mental model and look for signs that this is operating in your life. And I advocate people having a notebook where they write down the signs that the universe is friendly, and when you do that, you’ll see them everywhere.
I’ll give you an example. This happened to me yesterday. So I had a plumbing issue in one of my toilets, and I called the plumber and he came and fixed it. And after he did that, he had come to my house earlier, and he was missing a drill, and he thought he might have left it downstairs. So I went to the basement to check, and he noticed that there was a pinhole leak in one of my pipes, and discovered it purely by accident. But he looked at that and pointed to my attention and said, I’m here and I’ll fix it. It could have been quite major, and he fixed it. Completely serendipitous. That’s a miracle. It’s a sign the universe is friendly.
Most of the time when something like that happens, we dismiss it as a coincidence. So coincidence is a miracle killer. But when you start noting the ways in which the universe seems to be working with you and has your back, you notice so many of them that you’ll reach an internal tipping point. And in that tipping point, you will tip over from “the universe is indifferent” to “the universe is friendly.” And when you do that, your experience of life has such a tremendous transformation.
Andi Simon: And I think that the timing of your conversation today is so interesting because I too, I believe in, in those kinds of chance moments which aren’t clearly by chance. And there was nothing that made him go down there, except perhaps he left his drill down there and nothing that said, please take a look at a pinhole in the pipe or anything for you. I started a conversation today talking about where we’re going and the kinds of things we’re in. But, it is an interesting lesson for our listeners, a wisdom to begin to open up your mind to possibilities.
Srikumar Rao: That is the key point. You’ve hit the nail right on the head. Open yourself up to possibilities.
Andi Simon: Because that’s the only way you’re going to grow. As we know that the brain hates change, unfamiliarly. It fights everything that comes in and threatens what’s current. You have to overcome that cortisol that’s produced until it, nope, I want some oxytocin, because I think this is the greatest idea that I could begin to think about. But the only one who can manage that is you.
Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. And when you start living in a friendly universe, then you say something happens to you and you say, okay, you know, there’s a lesson in there for me. And what is the lesson and how soon can I learn it? And you’ll invariably find that the unfortunate situation resolves itself.
Andi Simon: So when you’re up at two in the morning thinking about something that’s really bugging you, let it go. Meditate, quiet the mind.
So I’m watching our time and it’s almost ready to wrap up, but I want to talk about one thing more and that is meditation, mindfulness, managing your mind. Because unless you understand there are things you can do, in fact, I’m not going to say take charge of your mind, but quiet it, you’re going to think, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know how to let go of those negatives to absorb the positive. Any things that you particularly like to do? I’ve learned mindfulness myself, but please.
Srikumar Rao: What happens? Andi we have this mental chatter going on, and you can’t stop it. It’s pointless saying, you know something is happening, don’t worry about it. If you could not worry about it, you’d not worry about it. But you’re incapable of not worrying about it. That’s okay. You cannot stop worrying about it, but you can observe and be aware of the fact that you’re worrying about it.
So one of the cornerstone exercises of mine is, look, you have this mental chatter that’s going on. And the problem is not that you have mental chatter. The problem is you identify with your mental chatter. And when you identify with the mental chatter, it can grab you by the neck and take you to all kinds of dark places. So sit back and observe your mental chatter. Observe yourself feeling worried. Observe yourself feeling anxious.
And as you create that distance, you no longer have your mental chatter. You’re the observer of the mental chatter. The velocity and the power of that chatter, it diminishes and it loses the ability to take you to places you don’t want to go. It’s very easy to describe and it’s very easy to start off on that. It’s very difficult to keep it there because you start observing your mental chatter and in seconds you’ve lost it and you become your mental chatter. When that happens, go back to being the observer. This is one of the cornerstone exercises of my programs and my coaching. But as you become better and better at that, you can be an observer for a longer and longer period, and you’ll find that the things that used to bother you no longer bother you because you let them go.
Andi Simon: And that letting go is a lot like what you have to do to grow up. Yeah. Let it go. And at any age, you can be, you know, still a child, let it go to get to the next stage in your own personal growth. I’ve enjoyed this so much. I do want to say one thing for our listeners and our viewers, that when you’re working, when you’re in an organization that may have gotten toxic or may seem to be unpleasant to get to work every day, or your folks are beginning to struggle, time to sit down with them and think about that mental chatter that’s going on. It may come from outside of the workplace or inside. Or maybe somebody said something to someone.
Think about the investment banker and the different ways he can deal with his wife, one of which is caring about the fact she’s been alone, or the other is angry that she cares so much about herself that she’s not thinking about him and the work he’s doing. Same situation, two different stories.
But, if you have an organization that seems to be fragile and it’s not a bad methodology to begin to sit down and listen to the conversation, observe, be an anthropologist, hang out, listen to the conversations at lunchtime. Begin to pull out of the stories people are telling that mental chatter that’s creating noise instead of joy. Because so much joy is there waiting to happen. The universe is joyful. Let it happen.
Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. The universe is benevolent. The universe is your friend. Recognize that it’s your friend. And the more you recognize it as your friend, the more signs you will get that it in fact is your friend.
Andi Simon: And then every day, coming to work isn’t work. It’s about growing and learning and teaching and gratitude and just having joy.
Srikumar Rao: Exactly, exactly, exactly right, Andi.
Andi Simon: Last thoughts? Dr. Srikumar Rao has been with us today, talking about his new book, Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. But it’s about you and about how you can turn work into growth. Begin to think about that, that chatter in your mind as something to let go. Some last thoughts.
Srikumar Rao: Your nature is happiness. You’re not this shell of skin and bones and blood that you think you are, who you really are is pure awareness. Your job in this life is to recognize who you really are and cast yourself free from this cage in which you have ensnared yourself. Trust yourself and recognize that the door to your prison is always open and unlocked. All you have to do is open the door and step out of it.
Andi Simon: This has been a pleasure. I could keep talking. I’ve enjoyed our conversation and I know our listeners and viewers will as well. Let me wrap up. It’s such fun to share people like Dr. Rao with you because it takes us to the next stage in our own growth. And I don’t care where you are, that noise in your brain is going to get in the way of seeing what’s possible. And in fact, the little challenge here or a little opportunity there if you let it turn into an opportunity. Next thing you know, you’re rising with it. And he’s smiling and so am I. So thank you for coming today.
Srikumar Rao: It’s been my pleasure. And I look forward to a wonderful association. And I don’t know which way it’s going to go, but I know it’s going to go exactly the way it’s supposed to. Thank you.
Andi Simon: Thank you. But the joyful universe is going to take us on its own way, and we’re going to have some fun. The timing couldn’t be better. Now, for those of you who come, remember, I love to help you see, feel and think in new ways. I can’t thank you enough for coming. Refer to us anybody you’d like to hear on our podcast. We are getting booked up for the rest of the year and so sooner is better.
My new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success is doing extremely well. It’s full of wisdoms and people are learning. We often say, turn a page and change your life. Who knew? The book has an energy and a force well beyond being a book. There’s more. You’re smiling. The books aren’t books, are they?
Srikumar Rao: Books are in books. Books have a life force in them, and they reach out and grab the persons who are right for them. I could not agree with you more.
Andi Simon: Couldn’t say it better than you have. So I’m going to say goodbye. Let’s say have a great day. Please turn your observations into innovations. Don’t wait around. The world is waiting for your new ideas. Bye bye now.
Srikumar Rao: Let’s go further than that, Andi. Have a wonderful rest of your life.
Andi Simon: I love it. Everyone’s cup should be overflowing like yours and mine. Thank you.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
The more diverse your organization, the more successful it will be Today I bring to you a most fascinating and consequential woman leader, Melissa Andrieux. Born and bred in Queens, New York, Melissa became a prosecutor, then Queens District Attorney, then civil litigator. She is now Chief Diversity Officer at the law firm Dorf Nelson & Zauderer. She is also Chief Client Relations Officer, and is tapping into her extensive experience in marketing, business development and recruitment to drive business growth within the firm by establishing a culture of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. What’s more, she helps other firms bring DEI&B into their own cultures. Melissa is not only a trailblazer but a beacon for others to emulate. Do enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our podcast * It’s never too late. Don’t let people tell you that you’re only good at one thing. Just because you’re good at it doesn’t mean you should keep doing it. * Yes you should have a plan, but don’t get so fixed on it that you miss the opportunities that come. * You need diverse perspectives within your organization, because the clients out there are so diverse. They can pick and choose who they want to work with, who they want to give their money to, and if they’re not seeing representation at your organization or at your business, they’re going to go elsewhere. * Diversity is a reference, a representation of different cultures, different backgrounds, different races, sexual orientations. Diversity can also be the differences in education, socioeconomic background, marital status. People often think that it’s just racial or gender, but that’s not it. There are so many different aspects to diversity. It’s what makes us different and unique. * Equity at its basic level is about fairness and leveling the playing field. Contrary to what some people think, it’s not about taking from one group to give to another group. It’s about making adjustments to imbalances. It’s really about fairness. * Inclusion is related to belonging. Inclusion is, you’re being invited to the party to play, you’re being given a seat at the table, you’re being considered. And as a decision maker, as a colleague, your voice is being heard. * If we do not start with the basics, the foundations, and understand why people feel a certain way, why people think that they need to gravitate towards their own groups, their own culture, then we’re never going to get to where we need to be. It’s all about knowledge, education and understanding. * When it comes to DEI, the leader is instrumental because nothing can be done without the leader’s buy-in.
You can connect with Melissa by LinkedIn or email: mandrieux@dorflaw.com.
More stories of women making DEI a reality, not just an idea * Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let’s Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen * Rohini Anand—Can Businesses Create Cultures Based On True Diversity, Equity and Inclusion? * Andie Kramer—Can “Beyond Bias” Take Your Organization To Great Heights? * Maria Colacurcio—Stop The Revolving Door. Help Your Employees Embrace A Diverse And Equitable Workplace. * Businesses Must Sustain Diversity And Inclusion For Women
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I’m Andi Simon and as you know, as my frequent followers who come to watch our podcast, I’m here to be the guide and the host to take you off the brink. Our job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And in order to do that, you have to listen to people who have changed. Change is painful. Your brain hates me. But don’t run away. Today we’re going to have a great, great time. I have with us today Melissa Andrieux who’s an attorney whom I met at a wonderful party. And she has really given me some perspective on something that I think is important for us to share.
She’s smiling at me. Here’s a little bit about her background and then she’s going to tell you about her own journey. Melissa is an experienced litigator. She leveraged her background in law to lead Dorf Nelson & Zauderer, the law firm, in their initiatives as chief diversity officer. She’s also the firm’s chief client relations officer, and she’s tapping into her extensive experience in marketing, business development and recruitment to drive business growth within the firm.
But what’s really important is, she’s gone from being a litigator to being an expert in the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging professional space. So she’s helping the firm help other firms begin. And this is my world: see, feel and think in new ways so they can begin to understand why having a lot of diversity of all kinds, including cognitive diversity and listening to each other is important, and understand how to include people in things that you might have not thought they were part of. Melissa, thank you for joining me today.
Melissa Andrieux: Well, thank you for having me, Andi. It’s a real pleasure to be on your show.
Andi Simon: Well, it was a real pleasure to meet you when we did the book launch at Josie’s. I asked people if they wanted to share their wisdoms and Melissa had a story she wanted to tell. She’s going to tell it again today. But first, who is Melissa? Tell us about your journey, please.
Melissa Andrieux: Well, when you called me up to tell my story, I was a little shocked. I hadn’t planned on being called upon. But I love sharing my story. I was born and bred in Queens. I am a lawyer, as you said. And I came to that profession kind of, I didn’t have mentors in my life who were lawyers or judges. I learned by watching TV what was interesting. That’s why I chose my profession and what was on TV? You’re a prosecutor. You are a criminal defense lawyer. So I chose the prosecution route.
I always wanted to be a Queens District Attorney, and I became one. I loved that job. I represented the people of the State of New York, the county of Queens, and as most people in government, we move on into civil practice. And then I moved into civil litigation. I did that for a very long time. You may find that shocking, but I did it for 12 years at a firm and then I moved to Dorf Nelson & Zauderer, which was then Dorf Nelson. Now it’s Dorf Nelson & Zauderer.
And I did that for a while, and it’s kind of sad looking back on it, but I did it for such a long time when I didn’t really enjoy it, but I didn’t know what else was out there. I had no clue what to do with this law degree. So I just kept on doing litigation, and it got to the point where I started speaking with people at the firm, and I was told that this opening for marketing and business development was available. And I said, well, I’ve never done either. I’m a litigator, I’m a lawyer.
But then it got to the point where I was just candidly miserable. I didn’t want to get out of bed, I didn’t want to go to work. So I said, you know, let me try the position, and I’m not a failer. I don’t like to fail. So I said, I’m going to put my heart and soul into it. And I started learning about the business side of law, which I had no idea that law was a business. I thought you just went to court, the depositions, blah blah blah, but I found it very interesting. I was meeting clients, I was meeting prospective clients, I was learning about the business.
And then that developed into marketing, which opened a whole new world for me. And with the marketing, I was looking at other law firms, I was looking at businesses, and the DEI aspect clicked. I mean, as you can see, I’m a woman of color in the legal profession, which another story is really not as diverse as should be, but we’ll leave that for another time. So I started looking internally at what we could do to make the law firm better, more inclusive, more attractive to candidates. We wanted to hire people. So what do you do? So I spoke with leadership. I had to get their buy-in or else this would never work.
And the first thing that we did is, we started a Diversity and Inclusion Council. And I hand-picked the members, and we just had candid conversations about what was going on at the firm, what they wanted to see change, and I studied. It was not easy. I spoke with people in the DEI space. I found the experts, I read, and it got to the point where I was being called upon to do panels and advise people on their own DEI journeys. I mean, it wasn’t a quick thing, unfortunately. It took a lot of hard work. I had a lot of mentors and sponsors in my corner.
Luckily, I’m one of those individuals who actually found people who wanted to invest in me, and that’s kind of how I ended up here. I know that a lot of people, and I’ve heard this, think that the law firm hand-picked the Black attorney to be the DEI officer, but I assure you that it’s not the case. I wanted this role. I advocated for this role, and I believe that I’m doing a very good job with the role. It’s not done. It’s hard work. And we continue every day to do the important work.
Andi Simon: Let’s reflect for a moment, which is how I think our listeners or our viewers want to pick your brain, because there have been a number of articles that have come out about how companies, large and small, are de-emphasizing the work of DEI or the Department of DEI. I’m not quite sure, being an anthropologist, why you need a department of it and who they put there. But, it’s a very important part of transforming the way we live together. And it’s both inside and outside. It changes how people come to work, what they expect of each other, how we listen to each other.
And here, give them some of your own, both learning and experiences, because while they didn’t pick you, they were wise enough to select you and to open up a space to let you go. I’m curious about that first group that you pulled together and how you managed to get them thinking. So give us a little of how did Melissa do it and how others might as well.
Melissa Andrieux: So the how-to is: I decided to leave leadership out of these council meetings because I felt that in order for me to get a true sense of how people were feeling, I couldn’t have the partners in these meetings because then people would feel like they cannot be honest. And that was the first thing that we did.
And then I took the feedback. I took the information, and I looked at our policies. I looked at the procedures, the internal information that the firm has. And then I went to leadership and I said, this is what we can do. Let’s do X, Y, and Z. Let’s look at our policies. Are they gender neutral? Do they apply to everyone across the board?
And we started slowly but surely. And as I say to everybody, DEI is in the long run. You cannot expect to finish DEI in a week, a month or even a year. It’s an ongoing process. So that’s how I started my DEI initiatives at the firm.
Andi Simon: You spoke about having mentors and sponsors. Clearly you had teammates because as you think about it, this requires people to stop and rethink their story. And the story of the firm they’re in. Their livelihood is dependent upon it, but also their personal experiences and what’s happening. So as they were working with you, were there some key issues? I can hear your policy changes, but policies don’t do much if people don’t do much. So what kinds of things were you beginning to implement?
Melissa Andrieux: So candidly, of course, as with any new initiatives, there is a little bit of pushback. So we had to get the team members at the firm on board and explain to them why this was important, why the time was now. And, it’s not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect. But people do understand why diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging is important.
I mean, the thing is, you want to attract talent. You want the firm to continue to grow. And the way that we do that is bringing diverse perspectives into the law firm, bringing different people into the law firm, because neurodiversity, everybody comes from a different place in their lives. Their thinking is not the same as, let’s say, somebody who’s been here forever. You want to bring in fresh blood. And so when they started to understand the business reason behind this, they started to really buy into what we were doing. And they embrace it and they welcome it at this point.
Andi Simon: One of the women I met recently is a Vassar professor who had a bunch of faculty go to court about equal pay for equal jobs. And of course, being a former academic, I remember well how they hired men at different salaries than the women and they came in with less experience. And that’s at a female college. Come on.
So give us a little bit of a breakdown because there’s diversity, equity, equal pay for equal work, equal position, equal opportunity, inclusion. And inclusion and belonging are a little bit different. Give us a little bit more detail. I think it would be helpful.
Melissa Andrieux: Sure. So diversity is a reference, a representation of different cultures, different backgrounds, different races, sexual orientations. Diversity can also be the differences in education, socioeconomic background, marital status is diversity. People often think that it’s just racial or gender, but that’s not it. There are so many different aspects to diversity. It’s what makes us different and unique.
Andi Simon: Somebody once said to me, we’re all diverse. And I said, that’s great. We’re all unique. Go ahead.
Melissa Andrieux: And that’s what makes the world a great place to live. Imagine living with everybody who’s like you. I mean, I think that would be pretty boring. So that’s diversity.
Equity at its basic level, equity is about fairness and leveling the playing field. Contrary to what some people think, it’s not about taking from one group to give to another group. It’s about making adjustments to imbalances. It’s really about fairness.
Inclusion is kind of related to belonging. But I look at them as two different concepts. So to me, inclusion is, you’re being invited to the party to play, you’re being given a seat at the table, you’re being considered. And as a decision maker, as a colleague, your voice is being heard.
Andi Simon: You mean you can say something in a meeting and people can hear you?
Melissa Andrieux: Exactly, exactly. They listen to you. They might not buy what you say, but they give you the opportunity to be seen and to be heard. And to me, belonging is an individual’s feeling that you feel that you are connected to the community that you belong to, that you can be yourself with the people that you’re around you.
Andi Simon: You find that you know humans. I’m an anthropologist. Humans are very tribal. Yes, they look at the world that they’re moving into, such as a workplace. Do I belong here? And it is everything from the tangible: Am I dressed right? Do I look right? Will people look me in the eye and trust that I make good decisions? Plus all of the intangibles that are there that often I don’t hear people talking about, which disturbs me because inclusion without belonging isn’t cool.
I did work for a university once and all the students at a conference we were holding sat at tables with others where they belonged, but none of them were diverse. And then they literally stood up and said to the administration, you think you’ve built diversity, but we are really in enclaves with our tribes. And yes, the whole place may have diversity, but we don’t feel like we’re diverse. We feel like we have a tribe to belong to, and that’s comfortable for us. But it may be uncomfortable for you. It was a very profound conversation about what these words mean.
Melissa Andrieux: It is. So I do some consulting, DEI consulting as part of my duties. And one of the things that I always start my programs with is defining what diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and accessibility mean. Because if we don’t understand these core concepts, we’re not going to understand anything.
So I truly think that if people do not start with the basics, the foundations, and understand why people feel a certain way, why people think that they need to gravitate towards their own, their own groups, their own culture, then we’re never going to get to where we need to be. It’s all about knowledge, education and understanding.
Andi Simon: And an openness to want to know more about the other.
Melissa Andrieux: Seriously.
Andi Simon: Ask questions and be happy when you can sit together at lunch and share. How’s life? Humans are human and nobody likes to be the whistleblower or the soloist. They want an orchestra where they can all play their instruments, but play them together with a good conductor. How important is the conductor? The leader?
Melissa Andrieux: Oh, wow. When it comes to DEI, the leader is instrumental because nothing can be done without the leader’s buy-in. And I truly believe that. If so, Jon Dorf, Jonathan Nelson, and Mark Zauderer, they are the leaders of the firm, if they did not embrace the concepts of DEI, what I am doing at the firm would never succeed. It would just be some box that you’re checking. You know, your documents. But because it’s something that they truly believe in, it’s in the fabric of the firm. Long before I got here, it just wasn’t apparent until I got here, I suppose. If you don’t have the leaders who have your back, we’re going to fail.
Andi Simon: Well, do they do intentional things in order to broaden their own comfort with a diverse workforce and with diverse clients? I mean, do they live the promise?
Melissa Andrieux: Absolutely, absolutely. One of the things that we do is: we started a scholarship at Pace University. It’s called the Beth S. Nelson Memorial Scholarship, and we wanted it to go to a woman embarking on a second career in law. And it’s in honor of Jonathan Nelson’s mom, who was a teacher and then she went into law. So that is something that the firm does in order to show its commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion. We want to bring up the next generation. We want to give these women who are embarking on these second careers the opportunity to get in the law and graduate on time, and that’s one of the ways that we do it.
Another way that we show our commitment, that the partners show their commitment, is: they embrace every single client, regardless if you’re black, white, LGBTQ. You know you deserve equal treatment when you come into Dorf Nelson & Zauderer LLP and you need representation, never turned away.
Andi Simon: I think that it’s really a model for others to both hear about and to learn about. You also work with clients and how do you bring the purpose and mission out to them as a consultant or as an attorney or a little of both?
Melissa Andrieux: I wear many hats, Andi, I gotta tell you. So, being that I am a lawyer and working at a law firm doing business development, that has helped me tremendously when I go out there and I network because I understand the language. I know what clients want from their attorneys and what they don’t want. So I’m able to talk to them as they need to be spoken to.
And I also do consulting, which kind of develops organically as well. I go out and I do these panels. I go to these networking events and people ask me what I do. Somebody said, Will you do consulting for us? And obviously I said yes, because I love to do that. I love to teach and help other organizations grow and start their DEI journeys with the foundations, and then we move on from there as their needs become apparent, as whatever they need.
Andi Simon: So as you’re looking out there, you’re seeing some trends that are both interesting or disturbing to you.
Melissa Andrieux: Some interesting trends are that a lot of the firms that have started their DEI, they’re continuing it, which I’m so happy about, even post- the Supreme Court decision. They are doubling down on their DEI initiatives, which I’m so happy to see because we cannot go backwards. We absolutely cannot go backwards. It takes the courage of these leaders to say we are going to forge forward. We’re not going to let anything stop us, because it’s also good business. Having a diverse workforce is good business.
I always say, if you want to attract more clients, you need to have your organization reflect those clients that are coming to you for help. And one of the disturbing trends is, people who are using the Supreme Court decision as an excuse to not continue their DEIB initiatives, or those that say, we’ve reached the endgame, we can stop now. Unfortunately, that is not how you look at the DEI. I wish that were the case where we no longer needed these initiatives, but unfortunately they must continue and we are not done. We are never done. So to those organizations that think that it’s okay to stop, I caution you.
Andi Simon: But, you know, it’s an interesting philosophical question because it’s a gig to them. It isn’t fundamental. It isn’t transformative. It is a way of thinking about people or business. It’s something that seemed to be cool to do, like ESG [environmental, social and governance], you know, pay a little attention to the environment.
We’re social creatures. We live in a very complex society and don’t shortchange yourself by letting others put you into some box. Take the initiative and see why it’s so important. I mean, women who lead lead companies in very good ROI, their returns are there and the people stay and they become places one wants to work. And that’s not inconsequential, is it?
Melissa Andrieux: It’s not. People gravitate to people who are like them. So I always use this as an example. I will attract a different type of client than, let’s say, a John Dorf or a Jonathan Nelson. I will attract the women. I will attract the people of color. I mean, not to say that they won’t, but we’re just going about business development and recruitment differently. That’s why you need diverse perspectives within your organization, because the clients out there are so diverse. They can pick and choose who they want to work with, who they want to give their money to, and if they’re not seeing representation at your organization or at your business, they’re going to go elsewhere. So I think it’s a really good practice to have so many different perspectives within your firm going out there representing your organization.
Andi Simon: Often when I do workshops, I remind the CEOs in the group that 13 million companies are owned by women. And there’s a tremendous amount of effort to get women, women of color or people with diverse backgrounds into the supply chain, right into businesses so they can be in the supply chain. They’re looking for gender and gender fair. Johanna Zeilstra‘s company Gender Fair is trying to establish it as a standard, not as an afterthought, and this is sort of a very important time for us not to let us go backwards. And not make it hard. I mean, I don’t think this is hard work. It’s important work.
But I am just thrilled that you’re on this podcast because I think that many people aren’t really aware of the challenge and the opportunities that are before them. Is it easy? No. Should you do it? Absolutely. And will it help you and your purpose, your meaning, your business, your happiness grow. Aha! Oh, God. Melissa, it should be easier. Tell the listener as we’re just about ready to wrap up, give them 1 or 2 things that they should focus on.
I always like Oprah’s small wins. If you’re going to get somewhere and don’t try to move the battleship a little at a time, but know where you’re going. And let’s assume that what you want to build is a really exciting organization that embraces diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging intentionally and intelligently. And that’s going to help your business grow. Now, if they’re going to start and they can see that 1 or 2 things you think should be important for them to do in a small win style.
Melissa Andrieux: So before I answer that question, Andi, you reminded me the firm, the law firm, is Gender Fair certified, and we’re actually one of the first law firms to be gender fair certified. So that’s another way that we show to the world that the partners are putting their money where their mouth is. So I wanted to put that out there before I forget.
Andi Simon: Little push for Gender Fair, because it’s a great way for you to demonstrate that you care about the right things in the right way. So that’s one of the 2 or 3 things you want them to small win by. But learn more. And we can certainly introduce you to Gender Fair and its leadership. That’s terrific Melissa. Please, some other things.
Melissa Andrieux: So from my personal journey, I want to share with your audience that it’s never too late, as I know it’s a little cliché, but for me, I always thought that I could never leave. I thought it was too late for me to unlearn being an attorney. Unlearn being a litigator. But then when I opened up my mind and decided finally that I was ready to make the move, I said, you’re going to do it. You’re going to be great at it. And it was a long process, but I did it.
So one of my things, one of the things that I always say to myself and to the young attorneys or folks that I meet in the world, is that it’s never too late. Don’t ever be pigeonholed. Don’t let people tell you that you’re only good at one thing. And I had a lot of naysayers in my life, not to be a Debbie Downer, but a lot of people thought that I had lost it when I made the career change, and because I was so good at what I was doing. Well, just because you’re good at it doesn’t mean you should keep doing it. So never too late. Ever.
Andi Simon: You know, it’s so interesting. I met you at a book event for our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And I’ve been doing podcasts with a number of the women who are in the book. There are 102 women, 500 wisdoms, and they all are sharing a good deal about their own life’s journey. Now, Lorraine Hariton we did the other day and she said no, there was no straight line. I was dyslexic, and I managed to realize I was really good at math. And from there I got into computers early, and then I was in Silicon Valley, and then I went to raise money for Hillary and I said, um, no straight line, is there, no straight line, no straight line.
And in some ways, that’s the exciting part about being a smart person, I’ll say a smart woman, but a smart person, right?, where you can see the opportunities. One of the wisdoms I love there is: sure you should have a plan, but don’t get so fixed on it that you miss the opportunities that come.
I’m a big serendipity person, so it’s just listen. And here Melissa stood up at an event and said something and I introduced her and I said, please come and speak on our podcast. And I’m just thrilled that you were here today. If people want to reach you and talk to you more, put you on a panel or help you help them, where’s the best place? We will have it on the blog, of course, but sometimes they hear you and it sticks. Where should they reach you?
Melissa Andrieux: Well, I’m at Dorf, Nelson and Zauderer. My email is mandrieux@dorflaw.com and the website is DorfLaw.com. You’ll find me there.
Andi Simon: Good. This has been a great, great conversation. Every time I do these, I learn more and more about wonderful women who are really transforming our society and themselves. You, the company you work for, the people you work with, and I’m happy too. So let me wrap up for those of you who come and send me your emails and push out all of our podcasts. Last I looked, we’re in the top 5% of global podcasts, and in some places like South Africa, we’re really high. And it’s sort of like, really? So you never know where you are.
So the message today is: take your heart and follow it a bit. You never know what’s in it for you. My books, of course, are on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local bookseller. Women Mean Business is a fascinating book. I’ll turn around and I will bring it over here because as you look at a book, you begin to realize, it’s my third book, and the other two were all Amazon best sellers and award winners, but each book has a different insight. And so as you open it, I mean, I love Kay Koplovitz, not by chance, I opened it by chance. They teach you something, and I often say that a book has a fingerprint, and the fingerprint gives it a uniqueness, but its power is inside. And so as the book is opened at all of our events, and if you’d like an event, please let me know. What happens is something magical.
Kay Koplovitz said at one event, think fast and act fast. And she said: if I had time to analyze all the things I had to make decisions about, I’d never make a decision. And I said to myself, you know, as an entrepreneur, I thought fast and acted fast and that’s how we learn from others. We get inspired by them. And it does spark our success with new ideas that we know aren’t so crazy. It’s fun. So thank you again for coming. It’s been a pleasure. And we’ll see you next week as we post all of our great podcasts. Enjoy the journey. Thanks, Melissa. I’ll say goodbye now.
Melissa Andrieux: Thank you, Andi, for having me.
Andi Simon: It’s a pleasure.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Learn how to escape or even avoid crushing student debt I am beyond thrilled to bring to you a remarkable young women, Bri Franklin, who co-founded the non-profit The Prosp(a)rity Project to help others avoid the massive amount of debt she incurred by attending an expensive college and being ignorant of the student loan consequences. She could have let the financial burden she experienced after graduation defeat her, but she decided to defeat it. Over many years she has worked tirelessly to pay off almost all of her debt. Now her mission is to help others in the same boat. Listen in, be inspired, and please share far and wide.
Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our conversation: * Young people: think very carefully about who you want your future self to be, and make sure that the you of 10 or 20 years from now thanks you and is appreciative for the actions that you take today. * Taking out loans have the potential to either upgrade your life or set you far behind the eight ball. * Bri: If I could do it all over again, I absolutely would have heeded the advice of being very careful before just blindly signing any paperwork. * College used to close the gap between socioeconomic groups, but now unfortunately, because of some bad acting, it has become the opposite and is now growing the wealth gap between socioeconomic classes and race communities. * Predatory lending is subprime lending, taking advantage of a customer for the sake of financial gain. It’s basically taking advantage of customer and consumer ignorance, which tends to adversely impact people in black and brown communities. * Bri’s hope is to educate young people and their parents through the educational system long before they make college loan decisions.
Want to connect with Bri? You can find her on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and her website The Prosp(a)rity Project.
More stories of courageous entrepreneurs making a real difference in people’s lives: * Hamilton Perkins—An Inspiring Entrepreneurial Success Story * Theresa Carrington—Transforming Impoverished Artisans Into Entrepreneurs * Lynette Guastaferro—Transforming How Teachers Teach In Over 700 Urban Schools * Ivy Gordon—Providing A Powerful Voice To The Sexually Abused
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I’m Andi Simon. Remember, my job is to get you off the brink. And the way I like to do that is to help you listen to people, or see them if you’re watching the video, who can help you really understand the challenges in front of us in these fast changing times, and how you can see, feel and think about them with a fresh perspective. I like that fresh lens because unless you see somebody who’s addressing a problem, you really don’t understand the words, even if you read about it or maybe watched a video. There’s something very personal about some of the challenges that we’re facing that you might be as well. And so how do you address them?
So I met Bri Franklin, and Bri came to one of our book launch events for Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And I must tell you that the book tour has been extraordinary as well. I’m enjoying the people we meet there. So she and I spoke afterwards. Let me give you a bit of a biography of her bio, and then she’ll tell you much more about her own journey. And I think it’s an important one that you understand.
Bri Franklin is a businesswoman, philanthropist and student debt expert and thought leader with a passion for the socioeconomic and holistic empowerment of Black girls and women. And I think you’re going to think about this for all girls and women, but particularly women of color who are dealing with things in a particular fashion. Having taken on a financial burden that eventually ballooned to nearly $120,000 in student debt through her undergraduate studies at Dartmouth College, Bri developed an acute appreciation for the challenges many student debt holders experience, including their diminished ability to establish financial independence, take advantage of personal freedoms, or launch a business venture.
There was an article I was reading today about how the student debt for the generation who’s coming into the markets today is limiting their ability to buy a car. Today, a car is so expensive, it’s often as expensive as buying someplace to live. And 52% of the young people are living at home, not necessarily because they want to, because it’s impossible to find a place they can afford even if they share it. So our economy and our society is very challenging for young people because of the student debt and the inability to get past it.
In recognizing the extent to which other Black women in particular experience adversity at the hands of the $2 trillion student debt crisis and the lack of financial literacy, particularly not knowing what it means, not knowing what to do about it, Bri formed The Prosp(a)rity Project as a solution for eradicating the systemic barriers. Her work has been profiled in outlets such as Forbes, BuzzFeed, Authority Magazine, and Thrive Global, and she’s attracted support from audiences worldwide, generating nearly $400,000 in revenue.
But I think this is a more complicated and serious opportunity for you to understand what’s happening, how it’s impacting lots and lots and lots of young people, particularly Black women, and what we need to do to teach them how to be literate, but also how to use it wisely. Even businesswomen tell me that they don’t understand the finances and they don’t go after capital. So this is a big long term opportunity for us to educate them. Thank you for joining me today.
Bri Franklin: Oh my gosh. Well, your intro was incredibly flattering. Thank you so much for making space and the opportunity for me to be a guest today.
Andi Simon: You are a beautiful and brilliant woman. I’d like you to share with the audiences your own journey because as you shared it with me, I went, oh my gosh, we have to have you on our podcast so people can appreciate that, that nothing is a straight line from here to there. And your journey is not unique. There are many others just like you, but yours is the one we’re going to focus on. Who is Bri Franklin and what has been your journey so far? You’re a young person, but it’s been a complicated one.
Bri Franklin: It certainly has. I like to say that I had a very atypical post-graduation trajectory, and it was very much a jungle gym and not a straight line or ladder. So I came out of Dartmouth. I was the first in my family not to go to college but to go Ivy League. So I grew up in the Deep South, from Atlanta, Georgia, and always performed at the top of my class, student honor roll, principal’s list. You get the idea. And everyone just always told me, you’ve got to go to the Ivy League. You know, that’s where it’s at for you and that’s where you’re going to thrive and excel.
And so I really internalized that and thought, this is the only way to really honor my academic inclinations to the best of my ability. I started with one of the schools in my top choices and I ended up getting accepted, and it was between Dartmouth and Emory University. So, again, as an Atlanta native, it was a very close call because Emory was offering quite a bit of financial aid to the tune of all but $5,000 in grants, and that would have applied across all four years. So if I had chosen there, I would have walked away with no more than $20,000 in debt. That’s if I hadn’t done work-study or anything to offset my obligation versus the $100,000 that I came out of Dartmouth with.
And the deciding factor was, I was looking at the opportunity of going to an Ivy League and being in those circles, and the 18-year-old version of myself was also very much motivated by getting away from my parents and being able to break camp and go do my own thing. Not the best decision or reason for accruing so much debt, but that is how my story goes. So I came out of Dartmouth in 2017, as I mentioned, with $100,000 in debt principal, and then it quietly ballooned to about $116,000 within two years because of both interest and ignorance, on my part, and because of that ignorance, I also aimlessly wandered into other kinds of debt, and that included credit cards, and a car that was way outside my budget.
It impacted every level of my life, socioeconomically and mental health, and put me behind the eight ball in terms of achieving the typical milestones that young twenty-somethings often have made in the past, with little to no friction. So, and having dealt with that personally, I just became incredibly empathetic to others in that situation because it showed me that this was not the result of anything that I had done as far as breaking rules. In fact, I was trying to follow the rules, but unfortunately it worked against me because of what I now discovered is called predatory and subprime lending. So that’s exactly what my work focuses on resolving at a systemic level.
Andi Simon: When you went off, I’m curious, we all have kids and grandkids who are looking at college. And were you knowledgeable about student loans when you made the decision to go to Dartmouth without the grants as opposed to Emory with the grants? And was the reputation that much more powerful, did the colleges help you at all?
Bri Franklin: I get asked this a lot because people really were stuck trying to figure out why would I take the route that I did when Emory was literally making it so much more financially feasible? And that was because at 18, I call it the Know-It-All factor. A lot of teenagers are guilty. I think that’s almost the rule of thumb is that being adolescent and teenage, you just get in your own way sometimes and you think you know everything and that you’ve got all the answers. And that was really how I functioned, because no one had explicitly taught me what all was at stake.
You know, people just said things that were very nebulous, like, that’s a lot of debt. But I also would hear things like, oh, but you’re going to Dartmouth and you’re going to get hired immediately, and you’ll be able to write your own ticket. That was everyone’s favorite phrase: guidance counselors, teachers, relatives. A lot of people were just so convinced that by virtue of attending a school of that pedigree, that was automatically going to translate into an optimized advantage in the job market and increase my earning potential.
And so I just absorbed those promises and I didn’t really think to probe beneath the surface and take a step back and consider. Based on having majored in English literature, not having done a traditional internship, I didn’t know the first thing about networking. I didn’t know how to play those Ivy League cards. So I really came out almost with no measured advantage right away.
And, you know, for all intents and purposes, I think in those initial years, I could have been off to a stronger start coming out of Emory, but it was definitely a delayed gratification thing. And at these stages of my career, in my life, the Dartmouth Circle has come back full circle, and it’s now paid off in dividends in terms of the opportunities and the rooms that it puts me in. But I had to actively work for that, it was very much something I had to go out of my way to make up for lost time on, and it cost me quite a bit in the interim.
Andi Simon: What’s so interesting is that you’re a smart woman, and yet understanding the culture that you’re going into, there was no way to imagine it. You were imparting upon it your own sense of how it was going to benefit you. Even being an English major without having an internship, you were having a great time being you, and it wasn’t necessarily a good set up for the future, even if you didn’t have the debt. You’re missing something.
We talk in business about mentors or sponsors. Well, here’s an 18 year old who needed somebody who could guide you through your labyrinth and the jigsaw that you were going to be going through so you came out wiser, not poorer. So it’s interesting, as the listener is listening or viewing, how did you get yourself past the $116,000 in debt? Were you able to figure out a way out of it? Because I have a hunch that’s part of Prosp(a)rity Project‘s foundation.
Bri Franklin: So the short answer is, I’m still working through it. Unfortunately, I have not completely cleared it. However, I have made progress. I paid off about $40,000 of those various debts. So the total number, including the car, the credit cards, at the time was about $123,609. And I say, zero common sense. So I was able to shave off about $40,000, and I rolled up my sleeves and I threw pride completely out of the window.
And in 2019, I say that was my aha! I had a moment. I’d gotten so far behind on my loans, which for my private lenders alone were about $750 a month, irrespective of income. So because I came out and I was working temp jobs and contracts, I mean, I was making $15 an hour on a good day. And so I say my income was inconsistent at best, nonexistent at worst.
And the fact that my debt was constant regardless of what I was earning, that was, of course, very challenging to overcome. And just even at a practical level, having conversations with the lenders on the phone, the representatives, trying to appeal to them, get them to cut me a break, get them to give me some extra flexibility, it didn’t always go over well.
And so it all blew up in the summer of 2019, where my credit had taken a hit by about 150 points overnight because I fell more than two months late on my loans. And that also spilled over to my co-signers, my dad and step mom at the time; both of them had signed on to those initial private loans, and that had consequences for their credit. And it put us at odds interpersonally. And those relationships were always very valuable to me growing up over the years.
So it was just a cobweb of dysfunctionality and heartache, really. And so that was helpful, though, because it was able to just reroute me and caused me to take stock of my situation and just decide, as I said at the event, it may have started with these external factors. “This situation is terrible and I am irritated by it.” But even though it didn’t start with me, it ends with me. And so that’s why I rolled up my sleeves. I got two part-time jobs. I worked retail, which as an Ivy League graduate, takes a lot of humility to suck up the courage in your hometown, of all places, where you’re running into classmates and teachers and all kinds of people who are like, wow, that’s where Dartmouth landed you.
It was very much a pride component to it. But I was so motivated to get out of debt, I really didn’t care. I was like, if people are going to judge me for this, that’s their problem. I’m getting money by ethical means, and it’s building character, which it really did. So that was the foundation. I did what Dave Ramsey calls the debt snowball, and I started with the smallest balance listed out regardless of interest. And then I began chipping away. And because it does work as a psychological boost, when you can see the numbers go away, you feel like I can do this.
And it doesn’t feel like I’m draining the ocean with a teaspoon. This money does count for something. It is making a difference. It sets you up for progressive wins. And so I continued to keep those jobs through the end of that year, and I kept Orangetheory when I moved to the Bay area in 2020. I stayed and I enjoyed the increased pay difference because of the California minimum wage being twice of Georgia’s. But I was able to stay with family friends and not have to pay rent.
So I got all the upside and none of the financial downside, and I just aggressively knocked those loans down. And then once Covid hit, then it was starting from scratch all over again. And then once I started up The Prosp(a)rity Project, that summer was when I finally felt like my purpose was walking into place and I could see myself continuing down this route. And if all went well, being able to eventually climb out of debt along with the people that we helped.
Andi Simon: You know, I’m a visual person, and your story almost looks like a movie. Hopefully one day it’s real on the one hand, but I’m listening to you share with us the agony, the catalytic moment, the moment at which you realize that I can’t keep going like this. The impact you had on your family. None of this should be missed by the listener or the viewer because this is a very smart woman who found herself in a difficult situation that she’s working out of.
It’s not like she won the lottery but it is without a whole lot of help. It’s not as if everybody’s walking around on those, either the credit card or the car, but it is. And she’s also a representative of the generation that is finding themselves very much like herself in difficulty. You know, I’m a smart person. How did this happen? And once you got past that, how this happened, did it? Then how do I do something about it? Well, I can work hard. But now you’ve got Prosp(a)rity Project. Are you working on anything else? Or is this your business that you’re going to turn into a solution?
Bri Franklin: Yes! So Prosp(a)rity Project, this was my 24/7 life commitment for the last three and a half years. So we started up in the summer of 2020, and that took us all the way through this past December. And so we’re now at an exciting point of pivot where we’re using the last three and a half years of expertise, leadership, partnerships, just all of the gains and the wins that we’ve been able to accomplish collectively and through our work and turning that into an even more forward thinking solution.
So for context, Prosp(a)rity Project‘ is a 501 C3 nonprofit. The mission is leveling the socioeconomic playing field for communities most susceptible to and impacted by predatory lending. And in our first iteration of work, that was exclusively serving debt constrained, college educated Black women. We launched what’s called the 35*2 Free initiative, which draws its name from those two guiding statistics: $35 billion of student loan debt, as well as a 35% rate of financial literacy that Black women in the US hold collectively.
And so through that program, it’s a multi-pronged approach of not just helping that group pay down student loan debt, which we did up to $10,000 per person, but also training them on finance through what we call FinTech. So it’s six months of personalized financial guidance to give them a better roadmap for how to manage and steward their money and eventually build wealth, coupled with eight weeks of career development training, where they can put that into practice and then use that to go out for higher paying jobs and pivot into more lucrative industries, etc.
And so in doing those pilot runs, we did one virtual in 2022 with 12 women, we did a hybrid in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area last year with eight program members. We now have almost two dozen basically MVP’s, that we’ve been able to coach and get to know personally and turn that into the basis for an app that does the same thing, but to another degree by helping prevent it altogether with teenagers.
So we’re calling it Cadet Prosperity. And this is taking that IP and all of the user experiences and live journeys of these women, turning it into gamified avatars that can then coach and pay that information forward to middle and high schoolers who are sitting ducks, basically, for more predatory lending and usury. So it’s very exciting to bring it full circle and be able to help at critical scale.
Andi Simon: Let me see if I can take what you said and play it back so that I fully understand it. First of all, what’s predatory lending? You know, let’s clarify the words.
Bri Franklin: So predatory lending, as I’ve been explaining it in conversations and defining it through our work portfolio, is basically subprime lending or taking advantage of a customer for the sake of financial gain. So a lot of times that looks like very cryptic and underhanded paperwork or not being completely forthright in the terms, not going to great lengths to really make sure that the user understands what it is they’re signing up for.
So it’s basically taking advantage of customer and consumer ignorance. And that typically tends to adversely impact people in black and brown communities, whose parents or grandparents also were susceptible and didn’t know how to train them and break that cycle themselves. So it’s basically exploitation in the lending industry.
Andi Simon: Um, okay. Good. So understanding that, the other side of it is the ignorance of people to what that means and how to do it. And what you have had is now a dozen approximately folks who have gone through your program, which does two things, one of which is, begins to develop their career skills and the other helps them work off their debt, which if you combine the two, should get them a pathway to, I’ll say, prosperity at least, so that they can see the end of the tunnel and celebrate where they’re actually going to arrive. And if you don’t know where you’re going, it’s difficult to get there. And now we’ve turned the nonprofit into a for-profit application for gamification, for younger borrowers. Is that what I hear?
Bri Franklin: You summed it up beautifully.
Andi Simon: Well, I heard what you said, but I also know sometimes, as the listener is paying attention to it, they don’t quite necessarily put all the parts together. And I know that you’ve gotten on the one hand a training and development program nonprofit is that going to stay around, or are you going to move everything into a for-profit mode?
Bri Franklin: In all transparency, that’s a decision that we’re going to be huddling on in a couple of weeks just to weigh the pros and cons either way. I want it to be completely certain, whichever direction we move it in, so that it wasn’t a start-stop, because there’s still a lot of merit to keeping the nonprofit intact. But at the same time, in just taking stock of the current fundraising climate, I think, user listeners and audience members who are also in the philanthropic space, we can all collectively agree that 2023 was not a great year. And especially in our case, being a social justice-founded organization that was unapologetically Black, serving for so long, it was a moment in time and certainly not a forever movement.
And so we’ve seen a lot of appetites go back to pre-George Floyd pre-COVID business as usual. There’s a diminished sense of urgency around closing the gap for the black and brown community. So, my inclination is that we will at least just focus our efforts on the for-profit, even if we don’t legally retire the nonprofit, just perhaps having it on freeze for the time being until we can reintroduce these initiatives, perhaps through a foundation at some point down the line, once the for-profit is revenue-generating and off the ground.
Andi Simon: This is very important to hear, because your business challenge isn’t like other business challenges. The not-for-profit side needs funding through different sources than a for-profit side does. Right. And the application is now up and ready to go. And in schools themselves, if I remember you were telling me, not yet.
Bri Franklin: The FinTech app, we are in the very early stages, looking to raise pre-seed funding and just building out our initial team. And we do have a target go to market by next January when we would be ready to roll it out, ideally as a first version into schools. But, we definitely got our work cut out for us before then.
Andi Simon: I think you’ve opened up a very different opportunity where individuals, schools, training centers…my head’s already thinking about folks who I need to introduce you to, who you get into the high school training milieu and are really concerned about developing those young folks with the right skills and tools to do it. It’s very interesting and just curious, strategically, are you thinking of this being something bought by schools or by individuals or by parents? I mean, who’s the market?
Bri Franklin: So my co-founder and I, we just ironed this out over the last 48 hours. So we’re looking at B2B to see, the sell would potentially be to perhaps like a large banking institution, perhaps a tech developer itself like Apple and have it pre-installed on devices that are going to schools from the distribution standpoint and honoring the fact that a lot of school budgets tend to be very shoestring and don’t have a ton of money set aside for major app rollouts. It’s subsidized largely from school partnerships. We’re thinking that it would be one of those two routes as we see it right now.
Andi Simon: That’s exciting, because if you get the endorsement of a distribution channel like an Apple or something, or even the banks who could really see this as part of their community development initiatives, you get legitimacy and co-branding on it. And that takes it from a startup to something that could have great legs and go further. When you have tested it, have you tested it? I mean, I’m sort of trying to remember what we talked about, but have you tested it among youngsters and do they find it a wonderful game?
Bri Franklin: So the game itself is still being developed behind the scenes. However, we have been in touch with their would-be gamers’ parents, so we do have some focus groups that we’ve built out with mothers, fathers, of middle and high schoolers. And again, going back to drawing from my own experience, that know it all factor, we’re trying to get the best of both worlds, where we are that conduit for mom and dad, because we realize that a lot of this information is as simple as table talk, dinner table conversation. But there’s the lalala, I can’t hear you because you raised me sort of thing going on.
And so we’re trying to solve for that, but also not have it backfire to where it interferes with screentime parameters and household rules, parents keeping kids off of devices past certain hours or things like that. Certainly not letting it slide into an addictive user experience or anything. So we are trying to have those conversations now. So that informs the build out and saves us having to go back and rewrite or take out things once we’ve already done the heavy lifting.
Andi Simon: It’s so interesting because everything has its challenges. We have a society where the youngsters are quite not savvy on how to use applications like these. Can we use them to really educate them so that they can be wiser and make better decisions as they’re approaching their adulthood? At the same time, that it could interfere with their focus on other studies and other pieces.
Bri, this is so profound because the problem isn’t a little one. It’s a big one. I’m glad you’re sharing it with us because I’m not sure how I would learn more about it. It’s sort of like, where does this fit into the whole context of what’s going on out there? You can hear about, a president wanting to eliminate student debt and then people objecting to it, and it just breaks your heart. To some degree, it is a reflection of our society.
Bri Franklin: It is. And that’s where we also see the opportunities because it’s a knowledge gap on so many levels. And I’ve done personal crusading, you know, through going in and speaking to companies and trying to build the empathy because so many people put blinders on because they remember how it used to function when they were in college, which is how it was supposed to work. Higher education used to be a gap-closing convention. That was how people were achieving upward mobility in the 40s when the GI Bill was first introduced, that paved the way for the current student debt crisis. It looked nothing like it does now.
Student loans were capped at 1,000 USD per year, and it was directly tied to a boost and a measurable advantage in the job market post-graduation that you then use to repay the loans in full, get your mortgage, marry, start a family, and live your most prosperous life. And then, around in the 70s, people started to catch on just how lucrative it really was and how much demand there was. That’s when it privatized and opened the floodgates for the hell that we know today.
And, you know, the Student Loan Marketing Association became what we know as Sallie Mae. And then there was the lobbying in 2004 that prevented people from being able to discharge their loans through bankruptcy. So there’s just been so many factors that are greed and profit driven, as opposed to opportunity and people driven. And so that’s where we’re coming in to reset the clock and the board and just say, time out, things like this cannot go on.
My motto was that every bubble bursts, just like the housing bubble burst. And so many others. We’ve seen an economic collapse before. I don’t think this will be any different. And so that’s why we are positioning this as something that is not only innovative, but critically necessary. I’ve gone so far as to compare it to a vaccine against the virus of predatory lending, or the equivalent of equipping teenagers with a driver’s license so that they can legally operate a car.
We’re saying debt doesn’t have to be the enemy. It’s the ignorance that creates the problem and has potential to turn it from a tool to a trap. So we’re solving for a lot, and it’s educational at every turn, which is why we want parents to be on board with us and to not look at this as a tool to create controversy or to challenge their beliefs in a way that undermines their parenting, but rather to bring them up to speed and help them understand what’s at stake for their child.
Andi Simon: You are a very articulate young woman. Thank you. I loved listening to what you just said because you really understand the complexity of this. There’s no simple answer. And you have a passion and a purpose. You understand it and you want to stop it. And I am just honored that you are on our podcast today to share it. Thank you for joining us. It’s just so much fun. I think we’re about ready to wrap up.
A couple of things you want our listeners to remember or our viewers to hear you say: one, two or three things that are really important for youngsters to know and parents to be aware of, and the universities that won’t pay attention to right now.
Bri Franklin: Yes, because I do have advice for all three groups, but I’ll stick to those first two. So for young people, if you’re listening, if you hear this in Mom and Dad’s car ride or come into it on your own, I would say think so carefully about who you want your future self to be, and you want to make sure that the you of 10 or 20 years from now thanks you and is appreciative for the actions that you take today. Because things as serious as taking out loans have potential to really either upgrade your life or set you far behind the eight ball, and take it from someone who has spent all of her 20s trying to catch up and get back on track to achieve the things that used to be so typical for my age group.
If I could do it all over again, I absolutely would have heeded the advice of being very careful before just blindly signing any paperwork. For parents on the other side of that coin, I know that there’s a tendency to just say college or bust and to insist that our children, our nieces, our nephews are keeping the family legacy alive by going to our alma maters or just going to college. It’s become more of a tradition.
But we’ve got to remember the why again. College used to be unanimously gap closing, and now, unfortunately, because of some bad acting, it’s become the opposite and is growing the wealth gap between socioeconomic classes and race communities and everything. And so we want to just make sure we’re setting our kids up for success no matter what that educational means looks like.
Andi Simon: All right, now I’ll let you talk to those colleges. So the warning for them is…?
Bri Franklin: Do better. I think that there certainly is a place for academia, and I have great respect for what’s come out of colleges: vaccines, academic research, forward-thinking initiatives. And I remember the upsides of my own college experience, but it’s just unacceptable to keep driving tuition rates up with no correlation to how that’s going to better the student’s job experience post-graduation. So I would say that the short of it is that we have to remember that it’s about serving people and not gaining profit.
Andi Simon: Yes, I agree. What a wonderful podcast to share with our audiences today. I can’t tell you how much I’ve enjoyed meeting Bri Franklin, and I think you should take a look at the Prosp(a)rity Project and see how you, too, can be of help to her and to those who are trying. Now, they’re just the two of you, or is it a bigger organization than that?
Bri Franklin: So on the 24/7 main buildout it is myself and my co-founder, but we are basically migrating our existing task force from Prosperity Project over to Cadet Prosperity. We’ve begun to start getting feelers out there for advisors and potential board members. So we’re growing quickly. But in terms of the day to day diligence, it is myself and Kaylee for right now.
Andi Simon: You’re great. Great. Well, I’m honored to have you here today. It’s been a pleasure. Let me say goodbye to our audience. Thank you for coming. Remember our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success has just become a really cool book. And I can only tell you that I’ve written three but this one touches my heart because as I open it, people in the audience say, ah. I actually had a client who yellow marked it all and when I met with her, she went, oh, you’ve changed my life. It’s available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble in your local booksellers.
I can only tell you that I met Bri through a book tour event at Eileen Rosenthal’s in Washington, DC, and every time I do one, I meet some others who say, oh, this is a great book. It’s the wisdom of 102 women, and they can’t wait to share with you what they’ve learned and how you can succeed as well. Thanks for joining me today.
Bri Franklin: Thank you again for having me. The conversation just went by in a flash, and I look forward to this being the first of many dialogues that we have.
Andi Simon: I’m looking forward to it as well. I’m going to stop and say goodbye to all of you who come. You remember you’ve taken us to the top 5% of global podcasts. I’m honored. Thank you so much. Keep sharing and sharing Bri’s so that her message can get out there to parents, kids and everyone else. Bye bye now.
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Hear this incredible story of steadfast bravery and human kindness I am truly honored to bring to you today a very special guest, Panos Manias. A self-made entrepreneur who started his own industrial company in aluminium packaging materials, Panos is an inspirational and visionary businessman. But what we focus on in our interview is his personal story of how kindness and moral obligation saved lives during The Holocaust, and possibly can change the world today. You will feel uplifted and deeply moved, I know I was.
Watch and listen to our conversation here More stories of courage and human kindness: * Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! * Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You? * Podcast: Patrik Birkhane—Helping Us Live Healthier, Happier And More Peaceful Lives
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, and as you know, I’m your host and your guide. And my job is to help you get off the brink, to understand things and see them through a fresh lens. I’m a corporate anthropologist, and I’d love to share with you information from different cultures and times that will help you put into perspective your own situation today, and how to make sense out of it and understand it better.
So I’m really honored today to have Mr. Panos Manias with me. Panos is in Greece. He’s in Athens. He was introduced to me by a wonderful woman here in New York who wanted me to share his story. Now, Panos’s story is set back in the period when the Germans came into Thessalonica and really took over the city. And so I’d like him to begin to understand how to share that with you so that it is held in posterity so we don’t lose the story, and that the wonderful actions that he and his family took then are preserved.
So let me tell you about Panos. Panos Manias was born in 1934. He was one of five children. He’s married now and has two wonderful children and four grandchildren. He holds a bachelor’s degree in business, economics and international commerce from the Athens University of Economics and Business. He’s a self-made entrepreneur who started his own industrial company in aluminum packaging material in 1965. It’s now managed by his two children.
Panos, in his professional career, has spanned more than a half a century, and he’s proved to be an inspirational and visionary entrepreneur. His personal and business integrity, together with his determination on focusing on personal relationships, has been passed to the next generation of aluminum and continue to be the key drivers of the company’s success. Now, Panos is an amazing man, and I know he wants to tell you about the situations when the Germans came into Thessalonica, but what I’d like him to do is begin with his own journey. Tell us about yourself. How did you develop as an entrepreneur? Panos, give us some context to understand your own personal journey here. Can you do that, sir, please?
Panos Manias: Yeah. All right. Well, after finishing the American Veterans College, which is an American school and one of the best in the country in Greece, in Athens. I started working for a big company specializing in aluminum. And slowly they appreciated the job I was doing. And they offered me to go into a joint venture with this big company, whom I will never forget, because they really gave me a very good chance in my life. So I started working for them and they appreciated what I was doing, and they offered me to go into a joint venture in aluminum products.
And slowly but surely, it was expanding and expanding and expanding. And to make a long story short, after so many years, we are proud to say that we are a company which is 100% export oriented. We export everything all over the world and, thank God, both of my children, when they finished their studies in Greece and the United States, were both Brown University alumni. When they came back, I told them very openly and very clearly, now you are here, what do you want to do? It’s up to you. You decide, and I will respect your decision.
So they both said they want to continue working for me, I mean, for the company. And they said something which I will never forget. Listen, it’s your decision. You are never going to tell me you are not happy. If you are not happy, tell me now. They both agreed. They followed my steps and I must say that they did much, much better than I did. And I’m very proud of it.
The story we’re talking about starts in and stays where we were living. Before the war, we had the building, we had the big three stories building on our own, and we were living there. And the time was during the German occupation. It was a very difficult life, was very, very difficult, because people were asking questions and this and that and my aunt and my uncle who were living in the cellar, they were partners with my father, who was in Athens. They had both a joint venture in the food industry.
So one day he calls my father and he says in Salonika, there is a very good friend of the family, a Jewish family called Caruso. They were both living next to each other in a street in Salonika and were excellent friends together. They were not friends. They were brothers, although one was Jewish, neither was Christian. Every day they were going to meet together to discuss their problems, this and that. Before the war, everything was okay. And then when the German occupation started, everybody froze because they didn’t know what would happen. And unluckily the Germans were trying to find out if there were Jewish people in every neighborhood.
So one day they go to my father’s, to my uncle’s house, and they say that they would like to take it, not rent it. They wanted to have an officer living there, a German officer. They were frozen. So this is okay. And they didn’t know what to do. So they decided to take the Jewish family in their own home, hide them in an attic, but nobody would see them in the morning. And that’s okay. You can now have the home, the home which they knew was Jewish, but they left there. They’re not here. I don’t know where they are because they disappeared. And the Germans were living next to them. And it was very difficult. Very difficult thing to do.
And my uncle wanted to take them out of Salonika again, because in Salonika it was terrible. The Germans were killing Jews by the thousands. It was a genocide. It was incredible. I have to say something. My uncle, my parents and my father, they were very good businessmen, but they were not, as today, educated and things like that. But they had a good straight mind. So he called my father from Thessaloniki, and he said to him, Listen, there is a family here, that we are brothers with them, father and mother and four siblings.
So they said they made the plan. First of all, my uncle had very good connections with them. Then probably what they laughed at is the guerrillas who were fighting against the Germans, they issued for them fraud identity cards with the name Angelides. For Angelides, that was the name. And then he said he discussed it with the father and the family left and went to a fishing village very close to this island to hide themselves, waiting for a boat to take them to Athens. The boat was not arriving and not arriving, and the mayor of this small fishing town started asking questions. Who are they? What are they doing? Why are they here?
Somebody told them that he was going to call the Germans, that there is a Jewish family living on this island. They were frozen to death. And then they left because the Germans said, if you don’t give them up to us, we’re going to burn the whole island. They were doing it. Burn the whole island. I’m sorry, village. So the mayor told them, Listen, the whole village is in your hands. So the fact that they said, no, forget it. We are leaving right away. And they left and went back to Thessaloniki. They decided to return to Athens for sure.
Then you know, at that time there were no trains, there were just big old buses that were going from Salonika to Athens, which would take ten hours. And he decided after having the fake identity cards to put them on a bus and take them to Athens, where my father was living, my family, so that they would hide in Athens and nobody would know anything about it. My uncle insisted that he send them to go all together. Listen, he said it is a massacre. They killed Jews by the thousands. You must all go together. No, Mr. Carlson said, No, Mr. Manius. No. I’m going to stay here with my wife and the two children.
And he sent the other two with a bus. He didn’t take no for the reply. So my uncle said, okay, you want to do that? Do that. So with the fake IDs, they went to the bus station. They stayed in the third row and the fifth row, but far apart from each other, so that they wouldn’t know that their brother and sister and they were going in Larissa, which is half way from Athens to Thessaloniki, the bus stop for the rest. And the driver, who was not a good man, understood that something was wrong with these children. I don’t know how. He went and looked at them and said nothing, and he was going down to report it to the Germans.
All of a sudden, and this is something which is unbelievable, one sturdy man, very big, with not a knife but with a stick, stood up and went to the driver and told him something in his ear. And the driver froze to death. And he didn’t report to the Germans. He was going to tell the Germans they were Jewish and he would get money for it. So this was a big obstacle. Thank God they continued to Athens, where my family was living, and they were accepted by my family. And they stayed in our house. But, people there started talking. Who are they? What are they doing here and all that?
And my father thought of something very smart. In order to have them do something, he said, Listen, I will give you money. You will buy olive oil, which was during the German occupation, it was more than gold. I will give you bottles of oil. You will stay and you will sell them for peanuts and get some money. Not only this, they will say he’s a Greek doing some business to make some pocket money. And every day there was a Greek officer of the police passing by, and the guy in the garage gave him one bottle of oil free every day. Every day, every day, every day.
After maybe one month, the other policeman got a little bit suspicious. And what is this? So they go and ask him, who are you? What’s your name? His name was Angelita. They didn’t believe him. Where are you coming from? Listen, I’ll take you to the Gestapo and they will take care of you. He took them. He took the boy. And he was going to the Gestapo. And then he asked a policeman to take them to the Gestapo. And I don’t know how this happened. The policeman was the same who was getting the oil for free. So he gave back the little boy and he let him free. And the boy asked him, what are you going to say? I said, I slipped and you ran away. So he was saved.
He went back to our house where they were living. And then after that, I guess after that they started discussing who these are? Who is that? And my father went a little bit far away and rented a small apartment for them, and they were safe there because nobody knew them. And then they gave them the food and clothes and everything. And then the lady who owned the apartment started getting a little bit curious. Who are they?
By that time, the German occupation was finished. The Germans left the country and they were freed.They came back home and they said, we want to go now to the Serengeti to find our parents because the parents were there. So they went to Salonika again and my uncle told them they had to tell them where their parents were. The parents with three other children were caught by the Germans, and they were put on the last train from Thessaloniki.
Some years ago, we had a wonderful, very emotional meeting with the descendants of the Carrasco family in their house. That was maybe ten years ago. Maybe 15 years ago. They invited the whole Carrasco family and the whole Martinez family for dinner at their home, and we were about 35, 40 people. And I will never forget something that the old lady said. She said, of course she raised her glass to say hello to everybody and say, listen, Everybody listen. If there were not the Manias family, nobody would be here. Nobody. Both the Manias and the Carrasco, they would all be dead. This I will never forget.
So you know, we tell you all that because I think I have a moral obligation. I think because I’m an old man now. I am 90 years old. And I think I have an obligation to the coming generations to hear this story, to have the same feelings. No matter if he’s Jewish or Armenian or Hebrew, I don’t care. Human beings. Human beings must behave like human beings. And I hope this is going to be a good heritage to the coming generations. That’s why we tell you this story.
Andi Simon: The reason this is so beautiful is because at times you worry that humans have forgotten how to be human, and the Manias and Carrasco families are a tribute to what the good in us can do, isn’t it? If we can be kind, we can care, we can love each other, and we can help each other thrive. And it’s a beautiful story. And Panos, your tribute to your family and to theirs and to everyone is absolutely exquisite. It’s beautiful. Your English is very good too, sir.
Panos Manias: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
Andi Simon: Would you like to say anything at the end here to your sons and daughters and their grandchildren and anything special you would like to end with? Because you’ve told a beautiful story. But I have a hunch in your heart you just want to hug everybody.
Panos Manias: You mean to say something too.
Andi Simon: Did you want to say something in the ending to your story.
Panos Manias: Yes, yes. I just want to repeat that as human beings, we have the moral obligation to behave like human beings. And look at the people who are around us not according to the religion or the city, I don’t care what they are. They are human beings. And we must behave like human beings. We must have the moral that God, Almighty God, whether it’s God or I don’t know what the name Almighty gave it to us and we have to respect what we get.
And I believe very strongly that really in life you get what you give. You give love, you get love, you give hate, you get hate. So simple. But simple things are difficult to understand sometimes. So I’m very proud that I leave this heritage to my family, and I hope they will have the same mentality to behave like human beings. Human beings.
Andi Simon: This is a beautiful story. I’m honored that you gave us the opportunity to share it. I’ve been to Greece several times, and I did my research in Greece, and I was in love with Greek people because they embraced the work I was doing to better understand how people embrace change. And this is just a wonderful compliment.
So I’m going to pause for a moment and say goodbye to my audience, and then I will come off the tape and we can talk for a moment further. So bear with me for a second, because I want to thank everyone who listened today or watched. And I know Panos is going to be sharing this. So for those of you who are not familiar with our podcast, what we try to do is help you see things through a fresh lens. I will tell you that we live the story that’s in our mind. So think about Panos’s story and his desire to tell it. It’s one thing to have it, it’s another thing to want to share it. And by sharing it, hoping to spread his own big heart with others.
You’re smiling at me, Panos, because this is a gift that you’re giving to others, and there’s nothing better for their well-being and your own than to share this gift. So I want to thank you all for coming today. If you’re watching or listening, and remember that our job is to help you get off the brink and soar. So thank you again. And thank you, Panos and your family for joining us
Panos Manias: And do me a favor when you come to Athens, you are going to visit us.
Andi Simon: Oh, absolutely. Let’s do it quickly. Is it sunny there? Because I need some sun.
Panos Manias: Oh, it’s beautiful today.
Andi Simon: I know, hold on while I say goodbye to everybody.
P.S. You can read a more in-depth version of Panos’s story here.
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Hear how to open yourself up to a world of infinite possibilities As you know, I like a fresh lens. That’s what we do as anthropologists. We go out and help you see what’s all around you, and sometimes you can’t see what’s right here. Today, I have a wonderful woman, Roberta Fernandez, who’s going to help you do the same thing. Together, we’re going to help you realize that change is painful in some ways, but an opportunity for you to transform who you are in a great way. A personal and professional development consultant, Roberta takes your full self and helps you look at it a little bit differently. I love the word development. It isn’t a coach. It’s how do I help you grow? And how do we take a challenge and address it? Listen in to find out.
Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our conversation: * You cannot change a culture until the people in it change. * Emotion drives all behavior. * We all at some point in our lives should “clean out our closet” — get rid of those limiting beliefs and the stuff that really isn’t a part of you, and open the door for that higher self. * If we’re only focused on the problem, that’s all we’re going to be able to see. We have to focus on the solution, what we want. * The story we tell is the life that we create for ourselves. And it’s the life that we get stuck in. We stand in our own way, and what we want to do is to be able to open ourselves to this world of infinite possibilities. * Most of our thinking is habitual, just automated. When we become aware of how we think and what we feel as an individual, then we can recognize those things in other people. * The reason why we want anything is because we think we’re going to feel better when we can have it. So even though we don’t know the answer to something, we know how we want to feel when we’ve accomplished it. * If you look at any great artist or scientist or inventor or highly successful person in general, they’re going to tell you that changing how they think, how they process, and how they see things differently than anybody else is what has contributed the most to their success.
You can connect with Roberta on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and her three websites: Roberta Fernandez/AHARA, Conscious Napping and Conscious Napping For Business. You can also email her at roberta@consciousnapping.com.
Want more on how to actually bring about real change? Here’s a start: * Blog: Okay, Okay, I’m Ready To Change. How Do I Do It? * Blog: Three Ways Corporate Anthropology Can Help Your Company Change * Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It’s Necessary!
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. And if you come to my podcast, like so many of you do, you know my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And remember, I tell you that because until you see something, it doesn’t exist. And if you don’t feel it, you don’t know how to respond to it. And so my job is to bring you people who, through their stories, will help you think about yourself through a fresh perspective.
It’s not exactly the right metaphor, but I like a fresh lens. And that’s what we do as anthropologists. We go out and help you see what’s all around you, and sometimes you can’t see what’s right here. But today, I have a wonderful woman, and she’s going to help you do the same thing. So together, we’re going to lift you up and help you realize that change is painful in some ways, but an opportunity for you to transform who you are in a great way. She’s smiling.
We are very aligned and it’s so exciting to meet Roberta Fernandez. I’m going to read her bio a bit as a personal and professional development consultant. It’s interesting, when I launched my business, it was as an anthropologist that helps companies and the people inside them change. Not that different, but to be a personal and professional development consultant takes your full self and helps you look at it a little bit differently. She offers programs for individuals and organizations that develop emotional intelligence, EQ, and guides them through a change process to awaken their full potential and realize their higher abilities.
She’s perfected individual personal development, and that’s different from coaching. And I love the word development. It isn’t a coach. It’s how do I help you grow? And how do we take a challenge and begin to address it? And wellness. And I love self-care and well-being, executive managerial and team corporate training programs, particularly in the area of sustainability, culture change and emotional intelligence. She’ll get you more familiar with the sustainability part of her career, but there’s a whole package here that comes together with Roberta that you’re going to enjoy.
She’s conducted thousands of individual client sessions, more than 85 noteworthy presentations and trainings over the past 15 years. She’s going to talk to you about her new program called AHARA. I’m going to let her tell you about it in just a little bit. It’s a sacred term that refers to the support of consciousness, eliminating everything which is not the intrinsic or higher nature of yourself. It’s interesting, I was supposed to do a podcast with somebody earlier who was going to talk about something similar in her own discovery. When we got together, she wasn’t quite ready to talk about it, but in some ways, we must be facing an interesting moment where we are looking for our higher nature and the world is a very fragile place. And she’ll also talk about cleaning your own closet and conscious napping. She’s very clever lady. Roberta, thank you for joining me today.
Roberta Fernandez: Thanks for having me, Andi. I’m really excited to be here. And I’m excited too, because I think we are such a good fit for each other with how we think.
Andi Simon: I think it is, and it’s always interesting how we came to think the way we think.
Roberta Fernandez: Right it is. It’s been a journey. It is.
Andi Simon: So let’s talk about your journey. This didn’t all just drop into the bucket right here. You’ve had a wonderful life professionally and personally. Share it with us. And that’ll set the stage for what the programs are that you’re offering today. Please. Who is Roberta?
Roberta Fernandez: Well, I think I am a culmination of many, many years, getting into that last third of my life now, which is a pretty exciting time. I’ve been a serial entrepreneur since my 20s. I’ve done a lot of different things, but I think the thing that really changed my life, I had founded a Montessori school for 3- to 12-year-olds. So talk about anthropology. Montessori. She was an anthropologist, too, as well as a doctor way ahead of her time.
I didn’t know what I was going to do with my life. And I was sitting in a theater one day and I saw this movie, An Inconvenient Truth, and it just rocked my world, I have to tell you. And so I went home on the website and buried deep with this link, “Apply to be a presenter.” And I thought, okay, I can talk, I know how to talk, right? So I did. I forgot all about it. Probably 5 or 6 weeks later I get a call, it’s Al Gore’s office, and he invited me to be one of the first 50 people that they were going to train to give this climate talk.
Andi Simon: It was, see, I believe in serendipity. Absolutely.
Roberta Fernandez: And I was looking for my next stage and I had no idea what it was going to be. And so I went to Nashville. Long story. Mr. Gore trained a thousand people to give that climate talk over probably a six month period. And it was a wonderful grassroots, nonpartisan movement. I learned a lot from it. It opened my world, my look at my world, to a whole new area of sustainability, which was at that time not a very common term.
And I ended up working with a company out of Sweden on sustainability, and became a consultant in that field. But what I learned really quickly is there was such resistance to that term, and you can’t imagine why. Oh my gosh, you cannot change a culture until the people in it change. I mean, you can fire them, you can get rid of them, which sometimes is the right thing to do. But really you can’t delegate the way people think. You can’t do that top-down.
So I did that for quite a few years, and I did a lot of corporate training for really big companies and universities and even cities. And then I found hypnosis, which really is a whole different way to take my career. But in actuality, it’s the same thing. It’s just a different tool. With hypnosis, we’re looking at changing people’s perspectives with the way they think and the way they behave, because emotion drives all behavior. And so the last 12 years of my life, I’ve been working with individuals, helping them to change.
And a few years ago during Covid, Covid changed everything for everybody in some way, I decided I’m in the last third of my life. What’s my legacy really going to be? And I decided to take the last 20 years of my experience and roll them into a process that I call AHARA. So there’s several things that I do: cleaning out your closet is really getting rid of those limiting beliefs and kind of getting rid of the stuff that really isn’t a part of you, and opening the door for that higher self.
And then we start the Aha process, which is a year-long program where people learn to change how they think. I was really inspired by Einstein’s quote: “I look at the world and all the problems that we have that seem insurmountable and we’re not making very good progress with changing some of them.” And he said, “the problems that we have can’t be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.”
And as a hypnotist, I know that what we focus on expands. And if we’re only focused on the problem, that’s all we’re going to be able to see. We have to focus on the solution, what we want. So if we look at that, that is the basis of an aha, and that is exactly what you described: changing how people think, how they feel and then how they behave in the world.
Andi Simon: You know, Roberta, I’m an anthropologist. I’m a reader in neurosciences and the cognitive sciences. And, you know, we’re remarkable critters. We’re meaning-makers. I love the work that begins to show us that we have a story in our mind. And where it comes from is complicated. I’ve actually done hypnosis, so I’m sort of fascinated with our talk today. But once you have that story in your mind, it becomes your reality.
Roberta Fernandez: It does.
Andi Simon: And I tell folks, it really is an illusion. There is no reality. The only truth is there’s no truth. That’s right. And once you have it, though, you look for other people who are part of your tribe, the place you belong with your story that fits their story, and you all reinforce each other’s common reality. There’s nothing but one story.
And so when I get into a corporation or community group that’s stuck or stalled and you try to pull them away from that story, the first thing they say is, oh, no, we don’t do that. And I laugh and I said, well, that’s the problem because you don’t see it. You don’t see what’s right in front of you. And so you’re onto something for our conversation today that’s extremely important, a little different perspective. But this mind is really powerful at creating something that may or may not be good anymore.
So as if you’re thinking about the next phase in your own career, I want to hear more about what you’re creating and how you’re applying it, and why it’s working.
Roberta Fernandez: Yeah. Thank you for that. And you’re absolutely right. The story we tell is, it is the life that we create for ourselves. And it’s the life that we get stuck in. And the problem is, that’s just me and you. When you’re in an organization, you’re in a sea of those different perspectives and learning how to navigate all of those perspectives without losing your own identity, without losing your own opinion. And yet respecting and honoring those other perspectives allows us to do something amazing. And that is to create a new story and create a new reality.
I think when we look at how stuck people get in their own way of thinking, we stand in our way, and what we want to do is to be able to open ourselves to this world of infinite possibilities. And when we really look at how our mind works and how we function in a traditional environment, we’re only really looking at about 25% of what our opportunities are.
And so AHARA, at its core, is really teaching people to become aware of their own thinking because, as you know, most of our thinking is habitual. It is just totally not responsive, it’s just automated. And so when we become aware of how we think and what we feel as an individual, then you can recognize those things in other people. And the Aha process is designed to teach you how to navigate that sea of perspectives.
Andi Simon: Well, you said something very powerful there. The thinking is habitual and what AHARA allows you to do is, I’m not going to say break the habit, but maybe it’s part of that. Habits are very powerful and very important. I mean, they make you very efficient. And the problem with breaking them is the brain doesn’t really want to work hard on learning something new, even when you’re getting educated.
You can feel your brain working really hard, trying to figure out what they are saying and how they are telling me to do this. And until you actually do it, it really doesn’t exist. And then all of a sudden, you practice and you practice, and you get it. It’s a little like learning golf. I was thinking of which metaphor I could use. I’m a 12-year golfer, and I remember having a club and a ball and a book, and I don’t know why someone gave me a book to learn to play golf. It was irrelevant because I could read about it. But until I hit the ball, I went, oh, is that what they meant? And then I hit it twice. That was bad because now I could play this game. I can’t play the game. It takes a long time to finally get it so that it works.
So this is important now when you’re helping people through the process. There are multiple levels at which you’re working. You want to talk about the differences between the elite and the club and all of this because I think it’s important for people to hear that.
Roberta Fernandez: Yeah. Thank you. So really, it is one-on-one. So that is a very intensive way to look and learn the AHARA tenets. When I started three years ago, that’s the only way I offered it. I would work with a client over six months and we’d meet twice a week. So it was pretty intense. There’s some advantage to working one on one in that. It’s like immersion and that’s always a good thing. And you’re focused and you’re really into it. So you become acclimated to it pretty quickly, that’s not reasonable for a lot of people. And it’s also very expensive to do that.
So AHARA Club and AHARA Team are the same program. It’s just in the delivery that’s different. So both programs last a year. We have a couple of group sessions a month, a one-on-one session a month, and a whole slew of other things that go into the program. Team is just within one company. And the advantage there, and this is what I found in my sustainability work, especially the larger companies, they’re so siloed.
I remember in Target, for example, they had two sustainability divisions. One was architectural and one was in-store and processes. They never talked to each other. And so this idea of having a common language and a common approach and common goals that you set with each other. So a team is just within a company, it might be the leadership team, it might be the advertising team, the sales team, but they’re focused on their company’s issues.
AHARA Club involves people from lots of different backgrounds. So entrepreneurs, leaders, individuals who want to better themselves. And I love that too because you get such a different perspective on how people are applying what they’re actually learning. The key to AHARA, I believe, is that everything that we talk about, all these things you and I are talking about, are some of the basic tenets of AHARA. But it’s one thing to know them, it’s another thing to integrate them as a permanent part of your being, of how you function in life.
And so over the course of the year, as the members of the cohorts participate, they have activities that take these tenants and encourage them to use them in real life scenarios. So it really is an integration process. It’s not like a coaching program where I’m holding people accountable and coaching them. It really is about changing the way you think, the way you problem solve and and the way you live your life. And that starts individually. So there’s a big focus on the self. But once that awareness of how you’re thinking of how you’re interacting with the world, then how do we incorporate that on a personal and professional level? And that’s what it is.
Andi Simon: Possible to share an illustrative case with the listener or the viewer to concretize what you’re saying because I’m trying to imagine what you’re saying, and I am not getting a good imagination on it, and I don’t want it to be external from us. This is something that goes inside us and is extremely transformative, if I hear you correctly. Can you give an example?
Roberta Fernandez: Yes. So an example would be one of the women that went through AHARA, she was very successful in what she did, but she was bored to tears and she was thinking she needed to change careers, but had no idea what that was. And even though she was very successful in what she did, we found in working together that imposter syndrome was a big part of her life, and even thinking about doing something totally different was just beyond her capability because of a lack of confidence.
So first we had to work on those issues. We had to clean out the closet, so to speak, of those limiting beliefs and really look at what was driving those things to begin with so that she could better understand who she was. And once we accomplished that, then it became looking at the specific tenets of AHARA. For example, you mentioned how reality, how your thoughts create your reality, how that reality shapes your life because there is no reality, there’s a map, but we all use that map in different ways. We all experience that territory differently.
And so looking at where her focus was was really challenging for her because she didn’t know what she wanted to do. So we started with having her vision, the solution. And when I talk about problem solving from the solution, what I really mean is the first thing, because she didn’t know what the solution was. She didn’t know what she wanted, but she knew one thing, and that was how she wanted to feel when she was there.
Andi Simon: Love it, love it, love it.
Roberta Fernandez: Because here’s the thing: the reason why we want anything is because we think we’re going to feel better when we can have it. So even though we don’t know the answer to something, we know how we want to feel when we’ve accomplished it. So we started visioning, doing some visioning work with her on how she wanted to feel. And it was really interesting to see how that vision started to work its way backwards. And bottom line, what she found was she didn’t want to do anything different. She wanted to do what she was doing differently. It’s a huge idea and it made all the difference in the world.
And it’s so interesting because she’s a mortgage broker and that industry has taken a beating lately, and a lot of mortgage brokers don’t exist anymore. When I look at her website, when I look at her posts on Facebook and Instagram and social media, I see AHARA all over it and she’s still actually attracting people that think like she does because her whole thing was in her company, she built a company, but she had not built a family, and that was super important for her. When she first started implementing AHARA, it was very much in her family, juggling her kids and her husband and all their responsibilities. And then that started integrating very much with her as a person, as a business person, and gave her a gift.
Andi Simon: You gave her a gift, didn’t you?
Roberta Fernandez: Well, she gave it to herself. I have a process that helps you discover your own answers. And I think that is really essential for all of us.
Andi Simon: I have a leadership academy, I have several, and I’ve been doing them for several years. And I love taking emerging leaders, once a month, beginning to get them to see themselves as no longer those managers, but as leaders. What do those words mean? I often say that the words create the worlds we live in, and if you’re going to go from manager to leader, something has to stop and something has to start. You can’t just add more on.
Yeah, well, the first session and it’s coming up, I asked them to draw pictures and tell us stories about themselves today. And then I asked them to visualize what it is they would like to see themselves become. Tell us a story about that, because I got to start them to see, feel and think about themselves through the story in their mind. And what you’re telling us, it’s a different approach, but very much the same. If I can’t see it, I can’t ever become it. And then we try to backward plan, small wins to begin to move ourselves closer to that. The vision changes, you know, as life gets in the way of where I want to be. It actually takes you in better places, because you can begin to see it as part of this complex thing that you’re crafting.
Roberta Fernandez: Absolutely. And I think when you look at, and this is the value that I have gotten from being a hypnotist for 12 years, the imagination, the subconscious mind, which is home to the imagination, home to your emotions, home to your rules about life and how you think. What created you as a person when you can tap into that? I always tell people, everybody came to me as a hypnotist for one reason and one reason only, and they would be dumbfounded by that. They would say, well, how will you deal with all these people with all these different problems? And I would say that’s only the symptom.
The reason why people would come to see me is that there was a disconnect between what they consciously wanted and what their subconscious mind believed was possible. And inside of you, the one thing that I am absolutely sure inside of each one of us are the answers. We just can’t connect to them. And that’s the bridge that I played as a hypnotist. And I learned so much about human behavior and how the mind works and how really simple those answers are. Once you can get clear.
Andi Simon: Pretty, pretty cool stuff, huh?
Roberta Fernandez: It is. Yeah.
Andi Simon: So now, how are you building? This is a new line of business for you. As if it’s not quite a startup, but it is the next step in it.
Roberta Fernandez: You know, it’s new and it’s old because this is really the same work that I did in the corporate sector. I just did it on larger scales, right? I would have large training sessions and that kind of thing. So AHARA, any of the group ones are 12, we limit it to 12, 8-12 people at the most, but still more than one-on-one, because I also realize when we’re looking at it professionally, having a variety of opinions and ways of applying what you’re learning is so very important because people ask questions that I never would have thought of. And that’s a learning experience for me. So I love the idea of working in small groups, but it really is the same thing I was doing before. I’m just packaging what I’ve learned from several careers, actually, and putting it all into one tool, if that makes sense.
Andi Simon: I think that’s wonderful. So it’s not a startup, it’s a restart instead of branding. It’s a rebranding. But it is your skills, well-honed in your expertise and experience. This is not an imposter syndrome stuff. This is a woman who has had a great experience listeners might benefit by and do it in a very different way.
I can’t tell you how many times I became an executive coach. I don’t sell it, but often my clients need it. And so I go from consulting into coaching, mostly to become a listener and to help them get some perspective, but it’s amazing to me how without that, people have a hard time thinking. They have a hard time doing and they need to somehow, I won’t say the word vent, but to express the dilemmas that they’re facing.
And often it’s well beyond what you ever could have imagined and sort of like, I’ve had some clients and they’ve had family issues, and we get on a phone call or a Zoom for a business conversation. We never get to the business, the whole people and the combination of home and work sometimes just need a hand, you know? Let’s see if we can help you rethink what you’re doing and move forward some way, right?
Roberta Fernandez: Yeah. You know, I remember when I was young, there was the attitude of, you have to leave your problems at the door when you get to work. And no, that was a thing, right? You’re right.
Andi Simon: I am the same age. It was exactly. Absolutely.
Roberta Fernandez: And it’s impossible. It’s like saying you can separate the body from the mind and the spirit. You can’t. We are a whole package deal. And how we are personally definitely impacts who we are professionally. And we tend to think of ourselves as a different person when we walk in that door. And that is not the truth. It is not the truth.
And what is really cool is when we realize that and we can learn how to integrate these processes as part of who we are, we become more efficient in both our personal and professional life. And so when I was rebranding myself as not just a consultant, I really was specific and intentional in saying a personal and professional development consultant because they’re inextricably connected.
Andi Simon: And if you can structure a process for yourself of moving between roles, I often tell my clients that life is like theater. You don’t see it that way, but it’s just another metaphor. And in each place you are, you’re playing a role, sometimes well-honed, in others not. But I used to find that when I came home from business and my two kids were there waiting for time, I’d say to them, mom has to take a shower first. And I took the shower, I sat on the floor outside the shower, and I took the shower as a quiet downtime to move from business to mom.
And then I came out as a mom, and I vividly remember saying to myself, this is very healthy for them and for you because as you walk through the door, you’re still there and now you have to come here. The mom and I never quite tried to master that, but I remember having to because it was intense, both the business side and the mom side and being a professional person, you know, it was always managing a blended life. You had to figure out how one person could keep shifting rolls. And I remember we had one party for one client and it was on my birthday. My daughter came with me, and it was with great pride that I showed her off and brought her in. It was okay. So I think that these were complicated critters, and I do think it’s time that more people need them.
Roberta Fernandez: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. So I think I agree with everything that you’re saying, Andi. And I think if the audience can really take something away from this is that, really exploring, you mentioned that you’re a neuroscientist. My daughter is a neuroscientist as well. And we have very interesting discussions as a hypnotist and a neuroscientist together about how the brain works. It’s really important to understand that; you mentioned earlier the brain has to be efficient.
And so the majority of things that we do day in and day out are just habits. It’s something, and our thoughts too, just thoughts. We keep thinking over and over again but change is possible because it just is. And the way it’s possible is by becoming aware of how we think.
And when I look at the acronym of AHARA, A Higher Awareness leads us to Realize our Abilities, because we cannot fully realize our potential and reach that potential until we are aware of who we are, how we think, and how we navigate this world. And once we can tap into that, then the sky is absolutely the limit.
Andi Simon: You almost answered my question, which was, Roberta, tell the listener one or 2 or 3 things you don’t want them to forget. That sounded like the one.
Roberta Fernandez: Oh, it’s one.
Andi Simon: Yes it is. You know, because we’re about ready to wrap up. Is there a 2 or 3 you can add to that, or shall we just end on that note?
Roberta Fernandez: I think here’s how I’d like to end it. If you look at any great artist or scientist or inventor or just a highly successful person in general, they’re going to tell you that changing how they think, how they process, and how they see things differently than anybody else is what has contributed the most to their success.
Andi Simon: Good. So now we have a great podcast to share that you can change. It is painful. The amygdala really hijacks most new ideas. The habits make you efficient, but not necessarily productive. I love the story of the woman who wanted to stay and do what she did, but do it differently to add real value to herself and others.
And change is painful. But it happens. And I also love the fact that when you’re understanding that the words we use create the worlds we live in, sometimes we have to shed some ideas deliberately. And I like the idea of doing it in groups of 8 or 10, so you can help each other stay on course and not fall back. Because sometimes we fall back, even though we really don’t want to.
We don’t even see ourselves. It’s just the old habits rising to the surface. Oh, we’re complicated humans. God, if only it were easy but there’s progress. Now, remember, Judith Glaser does great work with conversational intelligence, and her stuff about the brain literally changes when you hear stories like we’re telling. So just so you know, listeners, you listen and your brain is adapting to what you’re hearing. Your story is changing, and there’s actually DNA that’s gone through a transformation there. Maybe.
But I love the idea that this is casual and outside of us, but comes inside of us and begins to be transformative, like your work. So absolutely, I’m going to say it’s time to wrap. I always love our podcasts. This is a great one. I’m so glad you came to me. I don’t know where, serendipity and there you are, but it’s been a great conversation about things that I sort of knew, but I didn’t know a lot about for our audience. Thank you for coming. It’s always a pleasure to help you see, feel and think in new ways.
Remember my new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and elsewhere, and I think that it’s a time for us to begin to understand how change is possible, and we should be changing. The joy of writing this book is that 102 women want to share their wisdom with others so you can thrive in business as well. And that is a very big change. When you read those stories and look at their wisdoms, you go, oh my gosh, that’s a great point. I can do that. Not the least of which is serendipity is a great way to start the day, and we have been serendipitously happy today.
Goodbye my friends. Thanks. Send us your emails at info@Andisimon.com and we will bring more great people onto the show. Goodbye again. Bye bye. Have a great day. Thanks, Roberta.
Roberta Fernandez: Thank you.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Roseann and Clara Sunwoo—How Did Roseann And Clara Sunwoo Build A Successful Women’s Fashion Brand? POSTED ON JANUARY 20, 2024 Hear how a great idea and hard work made this dynamic duo succeed This is one of those amazing stories that you’ve heard 100 times but it never ceases to make me smile. Clara Sunwoo and her husband came to the United States from Seoul, Korea in 1975 with two suitcases and $1,000. Now, 49 years later, Clara and her daughter Roseann are riding the wave of the very successful fashion business they built together, ClaraSunwoo. I have one of their jackets and I love it. I am honored that they are part of our book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and myself, and even more honored to bring them to you today. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here Wisdoms for entrepreneurs from Roseann and Clara Sunwoo: * You need to be fearless. All the women out there, if you are having second thoughts or you have a great idea, don’t wait on it. Give it a try. * Learn as you go. * We saw a need and we filled it (very Blue Ocean Strategy!). * Just take that leap of faith. A lot of women in business, or women who want to go into business or become entrepreneurs, have fabulous ideas, but think they have to have all the certificates or degrees. You don’t. * Sometimes I would be the youngest female or the only female in a meeting. We as women really need to empower ourselves and get to another place here. * The way you get through the tough times is with the people that surround you. Go with your gut in the beginning and take those risks. * Data is so important. Pay attention to what it is telling you. * Really love yourself. * Never say you’ll never do something or never say no to something, because you might find you’ll be surprised.
To connect with Roseann and Clara, you can find them on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Vimeo and their company website Clara Sunwoo.
Want more on how to succeed as an entrepreneur, especially as a woman? Start with these: * Marsha Friedman—How A Woman Entrepreneur Took A Little Idea And Turned It Into A Big Business * Amanda Zuckerman—How To Turn A Big Idea Into A Huge Blue Ocean Success! * Finding The “Holes in the Cheese” To Build A Successful Business! Meet Kim Shepherd * Stephanie Breedlove: How Women Entrepreneurs Can Think Bigger, Build Sustainable Businesses, and Change the World
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. We want to bring you people who are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Because it’s only when you see something and you feel it that your brain can start to think about, how can I apply this? And how can I do it in a way that’s going to help me soar? And that’s what we love to do.
I have today two marvelous women who are going to help share with you their own journey. And when you listen to their journey, you’re going to go, oh my, if they can, I can. And what kind of wisdom have they brought to their whole industry of women’s fashion? I met Roseann and Clara Sunwoo as I was doing our book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And their pages in here are just gorgeous.
What we did was, we collected the wisdoms of 102 women, and Roseann and Clara came to us, I think, from Robin Spizman, one of our co-authors, and we were so excited to share. So first, I want to tell you a little bit about them. I want to thank them for joining us. It’s going to be fun to really dig into two creative women who have built something unusual. I’m wearing their jacket today and their blouse and their pants and I wear it all the time. It’s so comfortable and it looks good and it’s really designed for me without them knowing me.
So who are they? Clara Sunwoo, the name of the company that they founded. They make clothing that’s strong and feminine and every day ready. It’s true. Since 1997, Clara Sunwoo and her daughter Roseann have worked together to create timeless designs that fuse classic styles with modern edge. And this fabric is really fascinating. You’re going to really understand it as they talk about it. Their goal is to have women not just look, but experience and feel edgy, empowered and beautiful. Yes I do, it’s so much fun. We’re a cross-generation ageless lifestyle brand. Every design they create must be wrinkle free, travel friendly and effortless.
They know me. I’ve already got 3 million miles on American, over 100,000 this year alone. Every week on a plane. You need clothes that move with you. So today we’re going to hear about their journey, because I do think it’s a journey that is going to inspire you. It’s going to absolutely celebrate what they’ve done, but elevate what you can do and educate you about how to think about what’s happening and what change can bring to you and your brand or your business. Roseann and Clara, thank you for being here today.
Clara and Roseann Sunwoo: Oh, thank you so much for having us. We’re really happy to be here.
Andi Simon: I can’t tell you how, and it’s really fun to share them. Everytime I see them, I go, oh, this is so much fun. Please share your story because it’s a very touching story. It touches my heart and I don’t want to share it for you. Please.
Roseann Sunwoo: So one of the things I really want to let everyone know that is listening is we did not go to fashion design school. We’re not from that background. My mother and father came to the United States from Seoul, Korea back in 1975 with two suitcases and $1,000. $1,000. So you can imagine with $1,000, you’re not buying much. Then I was born and I remember I became an unknowing apprentice in the family. So I know, mom, we have a lot of photos in the family. We’re wearing the same watermelon prints as children. We would make everything. We made curtains, pillowcases. We were hands on, and it really came from necessity, the talent to make things, to use your hands. We were not going in a direction, going into fashion in any sense. However, we were making clothing for friends, family or for ourselves. And a lot of people would ask you all the time to make clothing for them.
Andi Simon: My mother’s mother came here from Russia through England to here, and she was a seamstress, not an uncommon job or career. I’m not sure she thought of it as a career. It was what made enough money for her to raise six children. So I fully appreciate this. As you were making clothes for others, what did you discover?
Roseann Sunwoo: They were gorgeous, like all shapes and body types. What we noticed is, the fashion industry, and we were feeling the same thing, they put us in categories. I felt like women had to, if you’re this type of person or this age bracket, you must look like this. And it was really tiring and it was really just in our minds, we’re very modern and we’re very forward thinking. And it seemed backwards to us, and it was really frustrating to try things on where things were ill-fitting.
I think what we’re known for as designers is the perfect fit. We’re both perfectionists, we’re very detail oriented. And it’s the subtle, the subtle work that we do that really just, things drape well and we understand the body, the form, really well because we work with so many different body shapes, so many different women. And it really allowed us to understand how to design better. And also we knew who our audience was. We realized there were so many women out there that were feeling the same things we were.
When we talk about an Ageless Lifestyle Brand, we have so many different types of women wear our collection, and it’s really about how you put it together. And I want to go back to the way you feel. Looking good is wonderful because it’s going to make you feel good when you look good. But it’s really the feeling, the empowered on the inside. And when you wear fabrics that let you move and breathe and you feel really comfortable in it, but it’s high fashion because we’re not cutting corners, I think that’s going to empower women, and it’s going to make them really elevate in so many ways. I think that’s important. And that’s our main reason for creating the line. We did it in 1997.
We started with a capsule collection. There was a lot of risk because we used our life savings. I think we said, I had approached my mother and I said, why don’t we create a very tight collection, debut it at a tradeshow and just see what happens. And I was actually possibly heading towards law school, being the good immigrant child, everyone expects you to go to law school or med school, that’s what happenss. That was my parent’s dream back then. But I made a U-turn, and I’m so glad we did make that U-turn.
It was very, very nerve wracking because trade shows are expensive to do. But in the beginning, you learn as you go. We did not come from the business background, the fashion background. It was winging it a little bit. And I want to talk about this too. I think a lot of women in business, or women who want to go into business or become entrepreneurs, have fabulous ideas, but I think they never get to the other side until they feel like, I need to learn everything. I need to make sure that I have this degree, this certificate, and then once I get there, I’m going to jump to that other side.
I think in reality, it doesn’t work like that. I think there are certain things that you need. You need to get those licenses and certificates. But for many to jump, to start your business, it’s a little bit of just taking that leap of faith and the hope, and it does go back to hope, where obviously our back was against the wall and we were hoping that this would work. And it did.
Andi Simon: You know, I often talk about…I’m an anthropologist and I love to talk about taking observations and turning them into innovation. At the time, were you already seeing what you know now about the clothing industry? I can fully appreciate how the clothing industry categorized women and made clothes for particular clients without any larger philosophy, because what you’re talking about is a very different philosophy than something for a 50 year old or for a 30 year old. I mean, you were talking about being able to travel with it, feeling flexible, letting them feel good…was that early in your observations about this or did it come with time and maybe both?
Roseann Sunwoo: I think it was actually early on because it started with just ill-fitting things. And you know, if we give it more shape. It made us happy to give shape. We noticed a lot of women were wearing, if they felt uncomfortable with themselves, they would wear larger, looser pieces. And we saw that that wasn’t helping them. And they could have fun with fashion.
And I feel like fashion is, there’s a sense of joy when someone feels, there’s joy in that. And we really felt some of our best moments where women would come out of the dressing room and they’re almost in tears. And when you feel and experience that, we realized we had something to share. And it made us feel really good.
So I think it started off with fit and seeing that joy and then really understanding that…I think also women and business at that point, I remember being in a lot of meetings as I was working with different companies, sometimes I would be the youngest female or the only female in that meeting. I noticed that. I started to realize, we really need to empower ourselves and get to another place here. This is not, especially in the fashion industry. That’s what I saw.
Andi Simon: I was that woman. I left academics and went into banking as a consultant, and I was always the only, the first, whether it was a boardroom or it was the C-suite and I didn’t really know how to dress, I felt like it was theater. What is the part I’m supposed to play and how do I dress the right way to fit that? What do I say?
People talk about imposter syndrome, and I said, I’ve always been an imposter. I was going into venues with folks who didn’t look like me, and they didn’t say anything, but you try to figure out, how do I belong, what do I do to fit in? And the clothing. Brooks Brothers was for men. And you bought their clothes for women. But you look like a man. And it wasn’t me, but I wasn’t quite sure what was me. And so, you know, you’re raising some important questions for women and for you who are watching or listening. Think carefully. Who are you? How do you dress so that you thrive and you feel exhilarated about putting it on? This is a great jacket. I put it on, I go, oh. Please continue. As your journey went, how did it become 3000 boutiques? Because this didn’t happen overnight.
Roseann Sunwoo: No, it didn’t happen overnight. But, I think we like doing things locally, being hands on. We noticed that we like to know who our buyers were. They gave us feedback. It was almost like a patchwork of boutiques where, and that wasn’t something that we originally said, okay, this is our business plan and this is what we’re going to do. But we realized that the whole department store model was just not quite….
I felt like as designers, we were going to work for them. And they were going to box us in in a way where we have to design for what they were looking for during that season. And I don’t think, we would not be able to shine in that realm. So once we started working with all these local boutiques, a lot of it was word of mouth. We also had a lot of celebrities find our collection. A friend, they were shopping at a boutique, they would get gifts that led to a lot of big surprises. And I’m going to mention, we were on Oprah’s favorite list not that long ago. And actually they did a commercial on us, which was amazing. We had a Today Show segment. We’re in this book, Women Mean Business.
We are so lucky. We work hard and we’re always, I think we don’t know how not to work because that’s who we are, we love what we do. However, the consumer out there reached out to us. We didn’t use PR companies. It was a very organic way of growing. And then we just grew into 3000 boutiques with boutiques in every state. And we realized that that was where we belong.
Andi Simon: Now, how do you manufacture to support 3000 boutiques? I mean, are you like Zara that makes it just in time or do you have a lot of inventory? I think it’s interesting to think about, you made a good point before. People want to be really competent before they go into something. And you illustrate that we learn on the job and we grow and prosper. You can too. But how do you do that part?
Roseann Sunwoo: So sometimes we wish there was a crystal ball. We do. And I have to say the business has changed a lot. The fashion industry has changed a lot in terms of the calendar, after the pandemic. Even department store buyers, corporate buyers, down to boutique buyers, they are buying a little bit closer to season. So the calendar has changed.
Knock on wood, we’re confident enough to have built a loyal clientele that we do tend to create our collection and maintain inventory up to a certain point so that we can be ready when the stores are buying later than the season, because you can’t just turn things around overnight. We’re always living a year ahead or a whole season ahead.
I think it’s definitely, my heart goes out to a lot of newcomers in the fashion industry, because I don’t think it’s fair to expect everyone to have the merchandise. But we are very fairly lucky where we’re able to have that loyal clientele that we know that they’re going to support us.
Andi Simon: Because to your point, it’s a challenging time, both in terms of cash flow, inventory, financing and the complexity. You didn’t go to law school, but in some ways you are very analytical and lawyer-like. Are you a data person?
Roseann Sunwoo: Yes. So I believe In the very beginning when we started our company, there wasn’t much data to go with so you go with your gut, you’re creating relationships, which, by the way, I think are so important because the mills and the relationships that I have made 25 years ago are the same mills I work with now.
Andi Simon: That’s wonderful.
Roseann Sunwoo: And it’s just so much better when you have that trust and the relationship and that history. I think that’s how you get through the tough times with the people that surround you. Going with your gut in the beginning and taking those risks, data is so important. And now with the computers and all of the information that you’re getting, whether it be on the wholesale end or the retail end, we really need to know what the consumer is thinking. We need to know how she’s changing, where she’s going, what she’s looking for.
And our data is really showing that women are starting to break away from this traditional sense of, I need to look like this because this is my age. Even 20 or, 30 year old women, they’re starting to break away from, I don’t need to wear these things, I can wear what I want, I love vintage clothes. I see a lot of mother-daughter teams just exchanging clothing. I think it’s a beautiful thing because I think women need to support each other more, through generations. Bring them up. And it should not be separated because there’s so much to learn from each other. And I think fashion too, we shouldn’t separate.
Andi Simon: And you’ve also given them a way not to separate. And I think that’s the beauty of what you’ve created, because you could preach that. But if you can’t find clothes that allow you to feel and look good at any age, it’s difficult to believe that you can do that. And the magic in what you have is that, I don’t care whether you’re 25 or 75, this jacket will fit you and look gorgeous on you. And when you see it on stars, I go, oh, they were in the same jacket I am. So, you’ve brought a life, a philosophy, that is just extraordinary because you’re living it, but you’re letting others do the same. Clara, You’re smiling. You are a happy woman, aren’t you?
Clara Sunwoo: I try.
Andi Simon: If you are, it’s really wonderful to watch you smile. I’m curious, you have the 3000 boutiques, but I bought online. How big is your online business?
Roseann Sunwoo: So our online business started ramping up more, so I think during the pandemic. So we were focused more on a wholesale buyer. I think the world changed real fast. I mean, we had an online presence before the pandemic, but we weren’t focused on it as much. However, I think with the pandemic everyone sped up with online shopping, even customers that would normally not shop online and say, I have to feel the fabrics, I have to try it on. They had to shop online at that point too.
And now what we’re seeing is the growth on the e-commerce side, on the online shops. However, our boutiques are wonderful with carrying the line and keeping in touch with their loyal customers. So at the end of the day, it’s a patchwork. And so it just keeps feeding the whole ecosystem of both the wholesale, the brick and mortar, the online, the e-com.
So we’re in a very good position right now, but again, going back to data, and I think going into e-comm, data is so important because now you’re not face to face with the customer but they can also share a lot. We get a lot of exchange and information and also just through social media. I mean, what I love about our social media, you see women of different ages, different body shapes, maybe not so much online. You could see our models.
We’re still a small company, so we don’t have the budget to have 20 different models. We’re not there yet. But what I love to show in social media are the real women because then you can really see what we’re doing.
Andi Simon: And I think that reality takes the abstraction. Remember, we live this kind of illusion and we imagine and then when you see it and you go, oh, that’s what that is. Because if I hadn’t met you and Robin hadn’t told me how great you guys were, I’m not sure I would have been that curious about what it was. It didn’t seem to fit me. And then I saw it, and I went, oh, my goodness, that not only fits me, so, now I have two jackets, two pairs of pants, two blouses, and I’m not quite sure I’m ready for the next one yet, but I don’t have enough time to wear them all.
But it is exciting to be part of something, and I share that with you, because now I don’t feel like I’m buying a thing, I’m buying part of us, and that collaboration, that sense of celebration is really so very exciting. I am curious and I’ll be satisfied with my curiosity. How did you come up with this fabric? It’s not leather.
Roseann Sunwoo: No, it’s not leather. And a lot of women don’t like leather. I personally don’t either. It’s very restrictive, it’s stiff. So what you are wearing is a special fabric we had invented, and we call it liquid leather. And liquid leather really feels like, it’s a knit. It’s very soft. It’s butter soft. It’s stretchy. It’s so lightweight and thin that you can actually roll up your jacket and put it in your purse. I know that it almost looks like a leather blazer on you right now, but it’s very lightweight.
We spent a lot of time trying to invent this fabric because we felt like leather, or blazers and jackets, it’s a sign of a woman that’s empowered, at least to us. It’s a very powerful jacket but we don’t like that stiff feel. And again, that’s very masculine. And I felt like we could take that idea, invent something that was so just feminine and comfortable and travel friendly and let women feel empowered because when you put a leather jacket on or a blazer, there’s this, at least I feel something, I stand differently. I think it’s a sign of empowerment. And I love the fact that, it’s made for everyone.
Andi Simon: And it travels. I swear it travels amazingly.
Roseann Sunwoo: You could put 50 of those jackets in a carry on.
Andi Simon: Yeah. And, it comes out looking perfect. And I went, this is really amazing, amazing, amazing. So thank you for satisfying my curiosity because I did have to figure out how you do this. It’s not leather, it looks like leather. It feels like that blazer. I love to wear it. Do you know many blazers I’ve worn over my lifetime? It truly is part of my style. Pair of gray pants and a blue blazer and you’re ready to go.
Roaseann Sunwoo: We call it the new modern cardigan. And that’s how women should think about it. It’s like, do you grab a cardigan when you’re chilly at the office? Or if you’re out to dinner or you’re at the movie theater? I’m always kind of cold with the AC. This is something that you could just pull out of your bag. It’s very light.
Andi Simon: So I want to wrap us up because I’m about ready, but before we’re gone, you wrote something really wonderful here. I don’t want to lose it. In our book Women Mean Business, you write: “The modern woman is ageless and fearless.” What a great view. “And the fashion industry must not categorize her. We are obsessed with changing the way women think about style and comfort. Our mantra: to make women feel good and spread joy, one woman at a time.”
It captures the power and essence of who you are, how you’ve come from an immigrant with $1,000 in your bag and turned it into an amazing experience. And I don’t think you’re done. Do you see much in the future that’s going to be coming soon that we should pay attention to. And then we can wrap us up.
Roseann Sunwoo: I don’t think we’re done either. I think the creativity that we have, I think we just got started because we feel the energy. The women now, I feel like they’re finally understanding what we’re doing. And I think we’re on the same page now, and there’s a lot of women, like, it’s not just a brand to shop, but it’s like, join the club. It’s a mentality.
Andi Simon: Don’t lose that thought because you pull us into belonging, to the next stage in our personal lives and your design. So I think you’re absolutely right. It isn’t the end. It’s the beginning of the next phase. And this is a collaboration that’s going to be very exciting. Okay, my dear friends, one or two things you don’t want our listener or viewer to forget because they always remember the end better than the beginning.
Roseann Sunwoo: Well, we both think that you need to be fearless. All the women out there, if you are having second thoughts or you have a great idea, don’t wait on it. Think about what you can you lose? If it’s not grave, try, because you don’t need to know everything to start.
The other thing is, really love yourself, find joy in fashion and don’t let people categorize you because every day could be something different. I’m a big believer of, never say you’ll never do something or never say no to something, because you might find you’ll be surprised. And I do want to say, if you do want to look for our brand online, please head to clarasunwoo.com. And we are so happy that you have invited us for this podcast and this is a great time. Thank you.
Andi Simon: It’s a great time and I’m happy to be part of your club. And so send me a little membership card because I think that the clothes are transformative. The book that we wrote was to celebrate and elevate women. I am so delighted that I had the opportunity to meet you and to share you. You really are taking women off the brink and helping them see, feel and think in new ways so they can soar. It is fun and you’re also smiling a lot, which I think is great.
I’m going to thank you and everyone for coming today. I do want to recognize the fact that Women Mean Business, the title of our book, is a trademark owned by the National Association of Women Business Owners, who have really done an amazing job helping women business owners grow, thrive, and build their businesses together. So I thank them for the opportunity to use the title for our book, Women Mean Business. It has been a pleasure.
For those of you who come, send me new people to bring on. I have no shortage of a line out the door, but I always love my listeners to come and send along people they met who they thought are worth listening to. As you heard today, the journeys are all very important because they open your mind to what you can be. All my books are on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and I would love you to give me a review on Amazon if you really love it, because it’s great fun to share it and I’m a sharer. Been a pleasure. Thank you for coming to On the Brink. I’m going to say goodbye now and have a wonderful day. Bye bye.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Hear about perseverance, pivoting, and putting yourself out there In today’s podcast I bring you Gemma Toner, former media and telecommunications innovator and one of the 102 amazing women leaders featured in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and myself. Gemma and I talk about not being afraid to take a job or head up a project even if you think you’re not 100% quailified. Believe in yourself and offer yourself as a smart person who can grow—that’s when amazing things can happen. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here 8 takeaways from Gemma for your own journey 1. Just start. And then keep going. This the best advice Gemma received from one of her mentors. 2. Everybody makes mistakes. Learn and start again. 3. Find people that are like you that can support you, in good times and bad. We all need a support team. 4. Don’t forget where you came from. Remember your roots. 5. Be open to lateral moves. There are many ways to build your career. Even roles you don’t like can lead to great opportunities. 6. Sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know. Be open and curious. 7. Share your wisdom and experiences with other women. As you rise, lift others. 8. Don’t let setbacks limit you. Handle the disappointment, learn as much as you can from it, then let it go and move on.
To connect with Gemma, you can find her on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and her company website Tone Networks. You can also email her at gemma@tonenetworks.com.
For more on becoming the best you can be, here are some of our favorite podcasts: * Elizabeth Rosenberg—Can An Extraordinary Coach Bring Out The Unseen Beauty In Your Strengths? * Jodi Flynn Takes You From Dreaming To Doing * Shayna Bergman—How To Identify Your Values And Live Them Every Day
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon and as you know, I’m your host and your guide, and I love doing podcasts so that you can see, feel and think in new ways. Why is that important? Well, these are very fast changing times, and regardless of who you are or where you are, something is pushing against you a little bit and you’re not quite sure. Do I like it? Don’t I like it? Most humans hate change. It creates pain in the brain. But it’s time to change. And the sooner you make change your friend, the more happy you’re going to be.
My job is to get you off the brink. So today I have an amazing woman here. Gemma Toner is a fabulous woman. She’s part of our book Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. You can see behind us, and I’m going to show you her picture. And each of them provide five wisdoms. And what I love doing is sharing their wisdom on the podcast because sometimes it comes alive even better. Gemma, thank you for being with me today. You’re smiling, I love you.
Gemma Toner: I am so grateful to be here. Thank you.
Andi Simon: Gemma and I are going to have a great lunch after our podcast. But first we have to get through our podcast. Let me tell you about her so that you, our viewers and our listeners, know why you should listen up because it’s important.
Gemma is a media and telecommunications leader known for driving innovation. In 2017, she created Tone Networks. And we’re going to talk about Tone today as a SAS microlearning platform designed for early- to mid-career women. Although as I looked at them, I think it’s for all women to stay in advance in the workplace. She’s been a board member of publicly traded companies including Sandvine, and is currently Co-Chair of the Women Business Collaborative.
Before founding Tone Networks, Gemma held executive positions in media and technology for AMC and Cablevision Media, running the fastest ISP in the country. We’re going to hear more about that in a moment. She’s been granted patents for data analytics, and she proudly serves on the board of the global humanitarian organization Concern Worldwide. Don’t you love that bio, audience? I think this is a wonderful time because you had that great article in February of 2023 about The Great Breakup. So here you’re going to hear about Gemma in the corporate world and then founding a new company to help women do even better. And this is something that is extremely important to me and to her. Tell us about your journey. How did you get into corporate? What was it like?
Gemma Toner: All right. Let me tell you about my journey, because it is not one that people immediately think of or hear. And that is that. I think of myself as a mother and a wife and a business person, a technologist, and I’m a data geek, but I’m also an immigrant. And that’s important because it’s such a strong part of my identity. And it’s also kind of driven me throughout my whole life. And so you ask how I got into corporate? Well, I’ll tell you.
My parents immigrated from Northern Ireland when I was about 4 or 6 months old. When you’re an immigrant, and this was back in the 60s, your family actually became your friends. And at least for our family, we were packed up every summer and spent time with all our family that my parents had left back in Ireland. So I have this kind of bifurcated life which sometimes I didn’t always appreciate.
You ask me again how I got into corporate. Well, I kind of looked at my dad and saw what he accomplished, and I was the oldest in a family of three girls. I thought, well, I’ve got to do better because he came here literally with nothing. He had very little money, very little education, but he had the dream that the American dream was possible. And you know what? It really was for him. And he became wildly successful here in the United States. So I had some big shoes to fill. And my dad didn’t go to college.
So the first step for me to get to corporate America was actually to get to college. And so I did. I got into Villanova and had a great experience there and ended up studying accounting. That wasn’t necessarily the most strategic. I happen to be really good at it. I happen to also be one of the few women in the room, and I didn’t mind that. So it was a great school, great experience. And I popped into corporate America and my first job was at a great company now called Ernst and Young. And I got to spend a lot of time at Time Inc. and again, this was again for this immigrant girl, this was corporate.
America was not something I grew up with. I did not know about mentors or sponsors. I didn’t even know that those names or terms existed. I certainly didn’t know anything about networking. But what I did know was that, keep your head down and work really hard. So I got to see corporate America kind of in its heyday. When you’re working for those types of firms, you actually get to see the world at a pretty high level, even though you might be doing pretty mundane things as an entry level employee.
But what it turned me on to and what I’m very grateful for was I got to really learn about the media business. And I realized pretty quickly that, Hey, this is actually where I want to be. And so I came home to my father, who had worked so hard and given us so much opportunity and said, Dad, I really don’t like this accounting thing very much. I think I want to try something else. And he said, Gemma, you can do anything. And he didn’t make me feel bad that I had just spent four years studying accounting, which is a great degree. I highly recommend it. Working at Ernst and Young was a great experience. But, it was time for me to make the jump.
You’ll hear often in my career, I kind of jump off cliffs and eventually fly. It doesn’t always go seamlessly, but it happens. And so I jumped. And so it wasn’t easy to have someone to have a media company hire an accountant, because certainly they didn’t think I had a marketing background and I didn’t, but I was entry level. And so it was a great time to kind of jump in and make a career switch. So I was fortunate enough. I actually started out at a company called Rainbow Advertising. So I got to see the world of advertising. And then I landed this fantastic job working for a woman. Her name is Katie McEnroe at AMC Networks. And that was where I had that first moment of: I see her, I want to be her.
Andi Simon: Ah.
Gemma Toner: And she was president of this network. We were in heavy distribution and marketing mode. And it was run by Josh Sapan at the time, another fantastic human being to work for. And it was probably one of the best experiences I could ever have. I got to see so much. I got to do so much. We were all so supportive of each other. We were very aggressive, but in an okay way, at a time in the telecommunications industry where it was really a bonanza of creativity and technology and distribution, it was just all these new things that were coming out.
And so from there, that was sort of how I landed in corporate, and then towards the end of my time at AMC Networks, I got really fascinated with this thing, I’m going to date myself a bit, called New Media. And I was always a bit of a geek. And, you know, I love computers and machines and things like that. And so I was able to persuade my boss at the time to create a new job, which was, how do we create content for this new medium, the internet. And more importantly, it wasn’t just about the internet because this was, again, where you had to dial up. It was really about this next thing that was coming, which was high speed data, which most people didn’t even know the name of.
So I got to create content. We learned, we made a lot of mistakes. I learned very early on that the programming and the content had to be really short. And this was way back, like in 2000. We knew it needed to be short. So we made a lot of mistakes along the way. But it was a great ride, and I share that because that transitioned me to yet my next gig, which was, I got asked to interview for this job working at a company here in New York called Cablevision to run this fledgling product called Optimum Online. And at the time it had a lot of optimism. And the CEO of Cablevision and President wanted someone that had a really good branding background. And if there’s anything AMC Networks can do, it really teaches you how to brand and how important it is and to understand your audience. And all of that will follow through as we talk about Tone Networks.
So anyway, I was fortunate enough to land the job, and at the time, I’ll just say, so for anyone that ever has had this experience, I landed the job, I got married and then ended up becoming pregnant all within like three months. So I thought to myself, what in the world have I just done to myself? But I did it. So I jumped again, jumping into a big cliff or off a big cliff. And it was probably the hardest job I’ve ever had. You know, it was, now I was working at a cable company. It was heavy in the technology space. We were also in a place where people didn’t know what high speed access was and they kind of liked that old dial up sound. So it was quite a challenge.
But it was really the beginning of a fantastic career journey at this cable company because not only did I get to be a part of launching and building that, but I also got to be a part of launching other new technologies at the company, namely Optimum Voice. I got to be a part of that team, as well as Optimum WiFi and then again at Cablevision. It was very entrepreneurial, even though we were a publicly traded company. It had great visionaries at the top and mentors.
Quite honestly, I got picked to solve a problem. And the problem was, Here we were, this company that had all of this data, and this was again early, before it was even called big data. And what could we do with it? How could we monetize it? How can we make products? And so I got to do something that I never in my wildest dreams imagined I would do, which was to run this data analytics team. And they were brilliant. And, again, it really speaks to you may not have to know how to do it. You just need to know how to lead and have some vision.
Because truly, Andi, you and I were talking about one of my main criteria was, I needed a social anthropologist. We needed to understand what all this data and behavioral data meant. But we had data scientists. I mean, it was just an extraordinary time and we ended up creating new products. We ended up getting some patents. And so that was really my life in corporate America. And it was a wild ride. It was not easy, I want to be really clear. I think so many people come on podcasts or do media and interviews and they don’t share that. It was hard. It was really hard. I cried a lot, I want to be honest. I cried myself to work some days with the pressure and everything that was coming at me.
But, you know, I think one of my mentors always said, keep going. And I think that is something that I want everyone to remember. Just keep going. Keep going through it. You’ll get through it. And so I stuck with it. I had this great opportunity, and then I had something very personal happen. And that was, a very good friend of mine who I had watched struggle with colon cancer for five years, passed away. And I went into the office after she had died. I watched her fight day in and day out for another day with her boys. I had this great gig. I got picked for the really cool stuff. It was the hard stuff. But I loved the hard stuff. I had an executive coach. I got to go to Stanford. I lived 20 minutes from my job. You couldn’t have asked for a better dream job. But I walked in and I was like, I’m done. And I didn’t know it was very emotional. So I wouldn’t say, go do this, but I did. So I’m just being honest and vulnerable. But, I came home that day and I spoke to my husband and I said, I don’t know what it is, but it’s just not this anymore. And so I retired.
When you retire, when you’re kind of at the top of your game and you have a really great gig, people look at you funny. So again, I will let you know that people are like, Why are you leaving right now? You know, here you are a woman, you’re at the top of it, it didn’t make a lot of sense. But what I knew inside was that I needed something different. And that’s all I knew. I did not have a strategic plan, so I recommend others have a strategic plan. Mine was a very emotional decision, but I also needed to take a break.
And so what I did was having had an executive coach, which is truly life-changing and transformative, I knew enough about myself and my own neuroses and my A-type that I am, that I might squander this gift that I had given myself, which I thought was retirement. And I thought, I need to have my executive coach help me through this because the last thing I want to do was to lose this time worrying about what’s next and not use it. I’ve worked for as long as I can remember. Well, we had monthly meetings, and she really helped me keep on that path of taking this time for yourself, rediscover yourself. I also had a girlfriend who gave me a book, which I highly recommend. And Brené Brown, if you’re listening, I want to be your best friend, which is daring greatly. And it was really about vulnerability. And that really resonated with me because I did not grow up in an environment where I felt I could be vulnerable. Making vulnerability equate with courage really spoke to me. It really sung to me.
And so during my retirement, I got asked to be on those boards, which was fantastic. And I have another story which will take way too long, but it is about saying no. So we’ll save that for the next podcast. But that was about how I ended up getting on those boards and how that snowballed, which was fantastic. And then during my, I guess you would call it a sabbatical, I got asked to serve on the Board of Concern Worldwide, and I hadn’t heard of it. They were happening. They were looking for someone with a data analytics and marketing background. So I just happened to get lucky and interview for that position, and I thought this was for me, Andi. I thought, this is it. I want to give back. I need something more. I’ve done the corporate America thing and I thought, okay, thank you, thank you God, here it is. And so that’s how I proceeded.
Now, as being a board member, I was supposed to go to Haiti and go on a trip. And at the time, Haiti became too unstable for us to go. And so that trip was canceled, and I got to speak at a women’s leadership conference because I was able to say yes to that. And I was very vulnerable. I didn’t know what I was doing. It was for women in cable and telecommunications. And Maria Brennan, who was the CEO, called me and said, You need to talk about career pivots at the senior leadership conference. I was like, Marie, Maria, I’m in a personal pivot. Why would anyone want to hear from me? It’s like, that’s exactly why you have to. So I think Brené Brown is playing in my head and I think, I have to go and be brave, got to be courageous. And so I go and that blows my mind.
This is a senior leadership conference in an industry where there’s a lot of access to learning and great organizations that deliver education. And I was like, why are these women, some of them I know, why are they who are here to talk, going to listen to what I have to say? So I said, here’s how I did it. And I was retired. So I had some headspace and I’m walking back to get the train home. And I thought, I’m no different than all those women that were in that room. So what was it that made me able to make the jumps that I did? And all these super talented women are struggling, and I thought I had access. And what does that mean, access? That means, for better or worse, somehow, because I didn’t know what a mentor sponsor was, I got access to a mentor, I got access to role models, I got access to sponsors, I got that executive coach.
And all of those things are scarce resources. Right at the end of the day, there’s not enough of them. Not everybody gets that. I understand the economics of executive coaching. It’s really expensive. And so I started to think about, what can I do about this? And I was like, Hang on, I know how to build software, I know content, I know data analytics. Wait a second. And so then I just started rocking on what could this be? And there you have it. So that was a very long-winded story of my drift from getting into being an immigrant, getting into corporate America, and then actually starting to create the idea of what a company could be.
Andi Simon: But, I mean, remember, our job is to help people get off the brink. And you are an extraordinary role model, because in many ways, it wasn’t as if you had a destination. You were curious and that curiosity and trust in yourself, and you can call it vulnerability. But that’s a word that often doesn’t mean anything. So just a cool word. Just supposed to be vulnerable. Well, what does that really mean? But what you found was that if you trusted your own feelings, calm instincts, you made some good decisions. Doesn’t sound like you had many detours along the way, but you might have.
Gemma Toner: Oh, I did.
Andi Simon: Yeah, I know we won’t talk about it again. I want to be honest.
Gemma Toner: I made lots of mistakes. You know, those were the highlights. You know, everybody makes mistakes. And so, again, I just like to be practical and honest. If you’re not out there swinging and you’re going to miss a lot, you’re not going to get some of those peaks, right? I think that’s really important for us to communicate because none of this is all hard.
Andi Simon: Well, you’re talking about chance. You know, it could have been luck, yes, but life is a series of showing up. People say, How did you grow your business? I say, I showed up because who knows what’s going to happen in the elevator when you meet Renée Mauborgne and she becomes a blue ocean strategist? I mean, the conversations are trusting that there’s some magic here that’s going to be, I don’t know, magical. And so you have moved along without saying, I need to go help women, but you had an experience.
And I want to emphasize that to our listeners. There was something experiential that said, Ooh, what is it? I could help those women because they need to see things through a fresh lens, and have the trust that this is why they feel the way they do?
Why don’t you begin your next story? Talk to us about Tone Networks because I am intrigued by how we can help women become the best they can be. I like men too, but it doesn’t matter whether you’re a guy or gal. I’ve coached both. I have many of them as clients but they all come and the brain hates change. It creates cortisol that says, This hurts. Help me do it. How am I going to help you do this? Because you need to do it. We need to figure out a way for you to see yourself in a new fashion, try some new things.
So Tone Networks. And I’m not even sure how to understand the name of it because it’s not physical. It’s not toning you up, but it is toning you up. Um, so I’m curious. I’m curious. Out of it came this platform that is helping people, women in particular, become the best they can be. You share with us. How do you see it? How did you create it?
Gemma Toner: You know, it’s so funny yourself. It really is. Everything that I learned throughout that long-winded story I just shared with you really is used in the creation of this business. And so the data geek in me, how do you start a company? You know, again, I came from corporate, where I had started lots of new products. And so I knew my process which isn’t necessarily what most startups do. So I was starting up as someone with corporate experience, so I don’t know that I did it the right way, but I did it my way and my way was to start to really understand what the challenges women had. I didn’t want to just trust my own self.
And so we went out and did research and we did primary research. We did a national study, and we asked questions like, What stands in the way of your personal and professional development? Because long before the pandemic shone a light on the challenges that women have, I was a firm believer in my personal life did not get left at the threshold of my office door, that my personal and professional life were deeply intertwined, and the technology was going to make it even deeper.
And so if we were going to solve and try to help women, I think we had to acknowledge that you didn’t have clear boundaries. An example would be, I’m just about to go into a meeting and my daughter would text me. You know, Mom, I need you. But I mean, it happens to everyone. And whether it’s a child or a parent or whatever, the gift of technology is we’re more connected. It also interrupts us in some ways. So that’s what we really looked to solve and what we did tons of research on, and I love research. So again, this is the geeky part of me.
And what it bubbled up to were a couple of things. And it was when you asked women, all different ages, quite honestly, not just early- to mid-, all different types of women in different types of business categories. And it was this time factor. I don’t have time to do sort of traditional learning. Access was made for me. I don’t have time to go searching for everything and I just make it what I can. It’s just for me, make it feel like it’s just for me. And then the last, which is sort of the saddest, but it’s a reality. It was confidence. And tucked under confidence was permission. And that whether we like it or not, the majority of women that were part of this study, and it was a statistically significant study, we’re like, I need permission to take care of me. And I’m like, okay, so if that’s what we need to do, then let’s figure out how we can do this.
And so that was really the beginning. And that became the pillars of Tone Networks. And so what Tone sets out to do is use microlearning. I am not a learning and development specialist. I know what it is to build products and content that engage audiences. And so that’s really how we’ve created this learning tool. We’ve created it more like you would create a media experience than an education experience. We have no textbooks because what we’re really looking to be is your TikTok for your personal professional development.
So instead of going into that death scroll of Instagram or Snapchat or whatever, you can just jump on Tone and do something good for yourself and really enrich yourself. And so that’s really our goal. That’s how we make an impact. And what’s really cool is we use technology to make it very personalized. So we ask you what you’re interested in. The last thing I want to do is waste your time because I know how precious it is, because I’ve been there and I do not want to serve you things that you’re not interested in. So if you are not a working parent, a working mom, we’re not going to send you progressive parenting videos because that’s not respectful. We need to be respectful of your time so that if you only have 3 or 5 minutes today because honestly, you just can’t breathe, you can’t catch a break, it’s okay. We’ve got you.
And so that’s really how we developed the product. But we also developed it knowing, and again I know you’re expert in this, behavioral change. And how do you know the nudge theory of behavioral change? So we’ve listened to women and they say, Make it for me. Make it easy. Give me a one, two, three because the last thing I want to do is write an essay or get homework, I have a long enough to-do list. And so what we did was, we made these really short-form videos, and at the end of every video we have your Tone Takeaways, which is kind of your one, two, three. The system actually sends you positive reinforcement the next morning and says, thank you for watching. Here are your Tone Takeaways. Why not? Because I’m being polite, but I am a very polite person. But because I want to remind you, you did something good for yourself and here you go.
You can tell we worked with neuroscientists as well. We can pull that information out and recall it. And you know what, maybe you can take that first step or maybe you’ll just watch it again. That’s okay. Change is hard. I’m so with you when you say that, right? It is so hard. So that’s part of the way the product works for the end user because we were designed to be both a consumer platform and a B2B platform. Right now we’re working on the B2B front, but trust me, I want all women to get access to this, whether you’re in corporate America or not. But today, that’s where we are.
And so what we can also do is help inform our business partners, the companies we work with, with a new data set. But this comes back to, my data geek days are anonymized. Why is it anonymized? Because if you won’t watch, my boss is a narcissist. If you know that your company is tracking you. And you know what, if you have a boss that’s a narcissist, you should know how to handle that. And I’m okay with that. If you don’t have a boss, you have someone in your life. Everyone’s got a narcissist somewhere. I mean, it’s just an upward trend in our society.
But the game plan here is to add value and new insights and to really be a contender. We are not looking to be your typical learning and development platform. There’s plenty of companies out there doing that. We’re really looking to deliver the knowledge that you get from having access to executive coaches and experts. The really good stuff that you get deeper in your career. Why shouldn’t women have that earlier? Because my goodness, it really is life changing.
And so that’s really how we set out to do it. It was really listening to the audience talk about mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes. It took us a long time to get the format right, to get the tone right. We’re in a good place now. I have to brag a little. We do have an NPS of 66, which is pretty darn amazing for such a young company.
Andi Simon: So just saying, are you better with an NPS?
Gemma Toner: Net promoter score? And so that’s when you just have a simple question. You know, Would you refer a friend or family member to this? And the good news is, a majority, and that’s a really hard number to get, of people are saying, Yeah, I would. So we have 95% of our business clients renewing. We know we’re hitting it. And I think we’re hitting it because, again, women don’t have much time. And we have to really redesign and re-engineer how we run our lives, and you know how we are.
Andi Simon: You know, Gemma, I’m listening and smiling because I share many of the same purposes and passions of wanting to take what we know and multiply it so others can rise with it. Sandra Quince says, As I climb the ladder, I lift other women with me. And I said, What a beautiful way of talking about what all of us are really interested in doing, not simply being acknowledged for accomplishments as you were and staying there, but thinking, I mean, your sabbatical was a growth period for you, but it didn’t stay there. It wasn’t just me on board. It was what I learned that I can now share and multiply joyfully so that I can lift others. And that is not inconsequential. And yeah, you can go speak, but when I walk out of the room at the end of a gig, as I know I want them to do one small win, you know, do an Oprah, one small win to lead you forward. But when will that be? How will I change? And it is purposeful and passionate. But you’re also having a good time, aren’t you?
Gemma Toner: I am, and I have to also credit my mom and dad for, again, you know, being immigrants and coming here with not much in their pockets. I think what they instilled in us was, and I saw it, there were so many people that helped them along the way and I recognized that but I didn’t know the terms. But the people that I would say helped me along the way, those mentors and sponsors, I don’t forget them. And what I recognized when I had a moment to like, think and take a beat, was that not everybody gets that. And so that’s where I think my father would always say, Never forget where you came from, always put out a helping hand. And that’s the truth.
And so I think, it does for me, it matters about my humble beginnings and being able to help more because we live in this country and we’ve been really fortunate. That means you give back. Let me clarify, I’m a capitalist. So this is not a nonprofit business. I believe in capitalism. And I also believe capitalism is probably the most effective way to create social change and upward mobility for women. But that’s why I’m doing this.
Andi Simon: You don’t have to justify yourself.
Gemma Toner: It’s just, I think it’s really important because someone says, Oh, is this a non-profit? I’m like, no, no, we’re not.
Andi Simon: You know, I met someone who’s trying to change the way kids understand debt and it’s not a not-for-profit. She’s finally made herself a for-profit. And I said, That’s good. It’s okay to make money and to spread it. It’s okay to remove the guilt factor because I’m in here for some profit. I don’t quite know why we’ve given that such a bad name, but I do think there’s something else about you as a woman leading others.
People ask me, Do women lead differently? And I say, Well, I’ve had dozens of clients. And I was in corporate life for a long time. And are women different from men? Yes. But leaders need followers, and they don’t follow people casually. They follow people they trust who can get them someplace together and who they believe are authentic and want to be accountable to. Do you find, you’ve had some good women bosses and men bosses, and do you think that women are leading differently or are we just women?
Gemma Toner: I think it depends, and I think it’s, men, women, it really depends on the individuals. There’s some great male leaders. There’s some great women leaders. There’s also both not so great, so do I think I led differently? Probably not early in my career. I would say I, probably just like the female role models that I was emulating, they were leading like men. And so I would say as I became more comfortable as a leader, I definitely had a different approach. I actually sometimes, early in my career, when I was running a region, when I saw my old team, I apologized to them. And I’m like, Thank you for still being my friend because I was really rough around the edges as a young leader. And you kind of grow into, at least I did, grow into the way you want to lead.
Andi Simon: Well, I do think that the value you brought to everyone along the entire way was your curiosity, this kind of openness to see things through. You wanted to bring a social anthropologist on because we know that out of context, data do not exist. What does all this data mean? Well, it can mean anything. I want it for myself. So which data do I have to do? And then how do I interpret it so that it makes the most sense. So it’s really interesting.
I think you and I could talk a great deal for a lot of reasons, and I’m enjoying every minute of it. Thank you for sharing with us today. For our audience, one or two or three things you don’t want them to forget? What would be some real good takeaways?
Gemma Toner: You know, I have to say, the takeaway, as much as I was long-winded is, You don’t forget where you came from. You know, always look back. I also think some of the takeaways that I had in the book really are important to me. And that is, Get out there and just start, raise your hand. Even though I can tell you, most of the big opportunities I had, I was not the first choice. And that’s okay. It’s okay to be the consolation prize because it’s what you make of it. And they were great opportunities. Two of my big opportunities, I was not the first choice, but I hung in there and I didn’t have all the skills they wanted. But, last man standing, I got it, you know? So I think that’s really important because so many of us are just like, Oh no, that’s over my head. No it’s not, give it a go.
I think the other is, Just keep going. It’s hard. Let’s not kid ourselves and let’s not mislead each other with, sort of saying, it’s all perfect. It’s not, but you will get through it. And I think what’s really important about that is, and it does take a little time, and I didn’t always do this myself, so I want to be really honest about finding people that are like you that can support you. So it’s having that personal board of directors. It’s also having a few friends and friendly faces that can help you when you’re just having a really tough day and can also celebrate with you as well.
Andi Simon: Well, we’re people and we need others, and they need to be trusting and trustworthy. And trusting is important, that we have folks we can turn to and can I just vent? You know, it’s not an uncommon call I make to my favorite friend, can I just vent? Then by the time I’m done, she says, You feel better? I said, Oh, that was perfect. I just needed a safe and an executive coach. But even there, sometimes you just go talk to your friend, let it come out.
You know, we had an ERG presentation the other day, for Eightfold, a company out on the West Coast, a software designing company. Really cool folks. One of the women said, you know, do women really have to check off all the boxes before they can move up? And all of us, there were three of us, said, That’s not how you’re going to move up. The move up really comes when you really don’t know what you don’t know, because you can’t possibly ever have all the boxes checked. Believe in yourself and offer yourself as a smart person who can grow. And those are better words than, Am I ready? You’re never ready then. You know, I never became ready.
Gemma Toner: And I like to remind my team, We’ll figure it out.
Andi Simon: Yes, we’ll figure it out. It’s a complex problem to solve. That’s exactly right.
Gemma Toner: Figure it out and just know you don’t have to figure it out by yourself. You can ask a lot of people to help you.
Andi Simon: Yes, and you won’t ever be exactly right. Perfection isn’t really necessary. And so all kinds of wisdoms. This is such fun. So let me wrap up. I do want to thank you, and the National Association of Women Business Owners, who owns the trademark on our book Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And we always like to recognize them and thank them for the use of their title for our book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success.
And as you can hear, Gemma Toner is one of those extraordinary leaders. And our conversation today was to help you spark your success. Get off the brink. Keep going. Be perfect. The books are all on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. My three books are there, with the third one, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman. I hope you have fun with them. I actually had somebody shoot a picture of one of my books on the beach where he was reading it and I went, Oh my gosh, a beach read. I didn’t know I had a beach read!
Gemma Toner: Andi, can I plug one event that we have coming up? It’s going to be in March. It’s a pay equity event that’s free for all women. So all of your listeners and men are welcome. LinkedIn will be promoting it everywhere. It’s really about getting women particularly equitable pay. And this will not be about talking about the stats. This will actually be practical tips as to how you make sure you are getting paid fairly. So mark your calendar in March.
Andi Simon: Sometime in March though, we have to come back to Tone sometime in March.
Gemma Toner: It’ll be on the day. Yeah, it’s actually, we’re just waiting to get the actual date. March 15th, something like that. It’s on Pay Equity Day. It’s something, again, you talk about purpose. It’s very important to us.
Andi Simon: Despite the fact that Barack Obama signed the Lilly Ledbetter Law in January of 2009. It’s not always true that women get paid what they should get paid for the same job that the guy is, much less at the same time. It’s really tough. Oh, boy, we can keep going, but we’re not. We’re going to sign off, say goodbye. Come again. Send me your favorites so I can bring them on. And I have a lot of great women and men to share with you coming up. It’s been wonderful. Goodbye now, and thanks again. Bye bye.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Learn how to nurture your unique gifts for a career you really love. I bring to you today Lorraine Hariton, a brilliant women with a brilliant career who shows us that success doesn’t have to come in a straight line, it can have many twists and turns. As one of the 102 women featured in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and myself, Lorraine is President and CEO of Catalyst, a powerhouse non-profit dedicated to helping women thrive, from the shop floor to the C-suite, so that everyone can be successful by their own definition. What I love is that Catalyst not only focuses on how women can be effective and improve their capabilities and skills, but on changing the work environment by creating workplaces that work for women. Want to learn about the future of work? Listen in.
Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from my conversation with Lorraine * Life is a journey. And that journey is to understand what your passions are, what gets you excited, what gets you up every day enjoying it. * In terms of your skills, what do you have with which you can contribute the most to this world? * There are lots of chapters in life. Make sure that you have the resiliency and the learning mindset to go from one chapter to the next. * Life can take you in different directions, but you’ve got to be a lifelong learner. You’ve got to lean into your strengths. * Periods of transition can be real opportunities. * Align your strengths and what you really love to do behind your passions.
To connect with Lorraine, you can find her on LinkedIn.
Want to know more about women breaking barriers in the workforce? Start with these: * Blog: How Can Women Overcome The Roadblocks To Building Their Businesses? * Blog: Best Tips And Tricks For Women To Work In Male-Dominated Industries * Podcast: Kerry Flynn Barrett—Learn Why So Many Brilliant Women Have Ditched The Corporate Ladder To Start Their Own Business * Pocast: Jennifer McCollum—How Will You Change The Face Of Women’s Leadership In Your Organization?
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. And as you know, because so many of you come to listen to our podcast, my job is to get you off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways so you can change, and the times are changing quickly now. I look for guests who are going to help you understand things from a fresh perspective.
Today I have Lorraine Hariton here with me. She is a marvelous person who is in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And when you hear what she’s going to tell you today, you’ll know why Women Mean Business has been such an absolutely amazing experience. Every time I open the book, it sheds new light on what women are doing in business. Lorraine’s bio: She’s president and CEO of Catalyst. Now, if you’re not familiar with Catalyst, it’s a global nonprofit working with the world’s most powerful CEOs and leading companies to build workplaces that work for women.
Catalyst’s vision and mission are to accelerate progress for women through workplace inclusion. This lifelong passion for Lorraine has helped her build a career with senior level positions in Silicon Valley as an entrepreneur and executive, and beginning at IBM, Lorraine then served in the administration in the Department of State and developed the global STEM Alliance at the New York Academy of Sciences. She has also served on the UN Women Global Innovation Coalition For Change, the Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford University, and the Forum for Women Entrepreneurs and Executives, but it is as president of Catalyst that I met Lorraine. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today: about what organizations can do to really build workplaces that work for women. Lorraine, thank you so much for coming today.
Lorraine Hariton: Andrea, thank you so much. It’s my pleasure to be here.
Andi Simon: It’s so much fun. Tell the audience more about your journey because I can read the bio. But you’ve had a wonderful career with a passion and purpose, and I’d like you to share that if you could.
Lorraine Hariton: So first of all, I want to say that the career that you just talked about is very different from the career I might have imagined when I was young. It’s gone in a lot of different directions. And I look forward to sort of talking about that. So when I was a child, my biggest influence was really my mother, specifically when she came into the workplace, which was in the 50s. She was originally a teacher. And like many of her generation, she went back. She left the workplace when she had her three children. But then she went back and got a master’s degree and eventually a PhD in psychology, actually around women’s sexual fantasies during intercourse. It was very controversial. She ended up on the front cover of Psychology Today, and then she had the next phase, a career as a psychologist and a lecturer out on Long Island. So she really gave me a sense that you can have different phases in your life, you can accomplish different things, and women should have independent, strong careers.
So she was a big influence. Then the other big influence on me was, I had dyslexia, I still have dyslexia. And because of that, I had certain real strengths and certain things that were limitations. I wasn’t very popular. I wasn’t a great athlete, but I was good in math. I ended up using that math ability to have a career in technology very early on. In fact, when I was in college — I originally went to college in upstate New York, at Hamilton College — my calculus professor suggested that I take an independent study computer science course at Hamilton College before there were even computers on campus. We just had a teletype terminal into the Air Force base in Rome, New York. But I wrote my own computer program. I fell in love with it, and it caused me to transfer to Stanford, where even at Stanford, they didn’t actually have a computer science degree. Undergraduate is math sciences, math, computer science, statistics, and operations research. But it really gave me this great foundation into something that my first passion was really around: computers and the application of computers into solving problems.
So I transferred to Stanford. I got a sense of that environment. I ended up taking a job, actually, back in New York for American Airlines, doing a big linear programming model for ferrying fuel around the American Airline system. But, I decided I didn’t really like just programming. I wanted to do something that was more people oriented within the computer industry. So at that time, IBM was a big place to work. It was like the Google or the Apple of the time.
So I got a job actually in sales working for IBM, and I worked in the apparel industry in New York, knocking on doors, selling mid-sized computers to the apparel industry, which was really fun. I really enjoyed it and I excelled at it. So I decided I wanted to be on the business side of the technology industry. I went back to Harvard Business School, got my MBA, and decided to go back to California working for IBM, the next level in the sales track at IBM. And there was the other reason I went back to IBM: to look into all the jobs at Harvard Business School that IBM had for women in leadership roles. It had the ability to balance career and family and a proven track record of enabling women to do that. I was really looking for a workplace where I could be successful balancing career and family, which is still the number one challenge for women in business.
And, through my work at Catalyst, I see that every day. So I went back to IBM, but eventually I went into Silicon Valley. IBM actually acquired a company in Silicon Valley. I went to work for them. And then I ended up having a career at IBM. So I started in Silicon Valley, started at IBM, and then I left them to go to become an executive at a mid-sized company. And eventually I actually did two startups in Silicon Valley. So I had a career at all these different levels.
But in my early 50s, I wanted to really do something that was more impactful. I had had a successful career there and I became involved in women’s leadership issues because really that was a defining thing around my success and my lived experience. I initially got involved in the Forum for Women Entrepreneurs and Executives that became WaterMark. That was a women’s leadership network in Silicon Valley. I really benefited from my relationships that I had with women in Silicon Valley. We all bonded together. We even did great trips, like we went to India and Vietnam together. I went to the Clayman Institute for Gender Research. I then decided to, after I left my second startup, to get involved in helping Hillary Clinton run for President of the United States in the 2008 cycle.
So I took all my sales skills and my business skills that I had learned, and I focused on fundraising for her. And as a result of that, I became one of her top fundraisers in the Bay area and really expanded my network. I got to know a lot of people and that enabled me to go to work for her, even though she didn’t win the the nomination, of course, we all know, but to work for her at the State Department as a special representative for commercial and business affairs. And, by the way, through all of this, I had my two children. I raised my two children in Palo Alto, California. And of course, that was the other part of my life that was, is, and continues to be very important. I now have three grandchildren as well as part of that.
So that balance of career and family has always been important to me. I also will mention that being in Silicon Valley in tech in those days had a lot of challenges. And I think that is why that’s been so important to me as the second major passion that has driven my life. This focus on women in the workplace, and understanding that I was part of the first generation of women who really came of age after the very substantial change in the women’s movement that happened in the late 60s and early 70s, that opened up the doors for women to have real careers.
Like my mother, in her generation, you didn’t have young children and work. You couldn’t go into the workplace and have a career. We read about Sandra Day O’Connor recently. We know that she wasn’t able to do that. Ruth Bader Ginsburg wasn’t able to do that. I was part of that generation that went into the workplace that was able to look ahead and develop a career, and was thinking about balancing career and family. But we had a very, very rigid environment.
You know, when I had my first child in 1985, we had to order business maternity suits from a catalog. I could only take six weeks off because they didn’t have maternity leaves. They just had disability, and when I’ve met with some of my friends and we talked about this, we all had the same circumstances, didn’t have the type of environment that you have right now. So I have that perspective of wanting to change that workplace. And we still have work to do on that.
So my reason for wanting to help Hillary at the time when I had the luxury to be able to do that, was because I really wanted to see the world change in the first woman president. But not only did I pursue that passion and use the skills that I had learned through my business and for my sales career to help her, it opened up a whole new avenue for me that became the next chapter in my life for ten years, really focused on that.
So I went to the State Department, and in the State Department, it was great. I was able to travel all around the world representing the United States, help businesses overseas, do diplomatic agenda around economic and business issues. And I also launched a big program called the Global Entrepreneurship Program, which is still at the State Department, where we worked on capacity-building in countries to take our innovation agenda and bring it overseas as part of our diplomatic agenda. So that was a very fulfilling experience.
I left in 2014 because it was a political appointment. It ended and then I thought, well, I think there’s a very good chance she would run again. So I did a portfolio career of doing consulting. I worked at the New York Academy of Science, as you mentioned, doing business development for them, and launched this Global STEM Alliance program. I launched a great program called 1000 Girls, 1000 Futures, which was a virtual mentoring program for girls in STEM.
I helped Hillary but of course, we know the end of that story and that didn’t happen. And by then I was lucky enough to be recruited to Catalyst, which has been just a wonderful opportunity for me. So I joined them in 2018. I am going to be retiring from Catalyst when we find a replacement. So it’s been about a five and a half years’ journey at this point that’s been really fulfilling for me because it really has aligned this great passion I have with all the things I’ve learned over my career to really make change for that organization and to really impact women in the workplace.
Andi Simon: You know, as I listen to you, and I want to stay focused on your career, but for the listener or the viewer, there wasn’t a straight line. This was a journey with detours and serendipity and moments and all kinds of things that you capitalized on. Were you particularly risk averse or were you particularly adventuresome? I mean, when I take my archetype, I’m an explorer or a philosopher, and I’ve been to 37 countries and I worked abroad many times. I, like you, don’t need a structure, I need opportunity. I need an adventure. Sounds like you have had adventure through life without care about whether or not it was the end, it was onto something new. Tell the listener a little bit about how you do that? Do you do that with that particular mindset that simply says, go for it, what the heck? Or do you have to plan it out?
Lorraine Hariton: Well, you know, I’ve evolved over time. I am very planful. And in the beginning of my career, I was focused. When I joined IBM, they had a clear path for you. You didn’t have to think about it. “This is what you needed to do.” And I bought into that path. Over time, sometimes when I had my biggest bumps in my life because I’ve been fired, I’ve been put someplace else, maybe not fired, but it was a detour. Those things have happened. But, you know, out of those things, in those moments of reflection, is when I think I was able to grow the most, to really learn and reflect on my strengths and weaknesses and what motivates me and to reorient myself. These periods of transition can be real opportunities.
And in my late 40s and early 50s is when I really started to understand that what I needed to do is to align my strengths and what I really love to do behind my passions, and to let the universe help me understand what those passions are. And in fact, that’s what I’m doing right now, as I look to my next chapter after Catalyst. I’m trying to open up the aperture and give myself time to evolve and think and let the universe take me in the direction, but with an understanding of what I really enjoy, where I have passion, what I’m really good at, where I give, and even in this moment, I try this out, I’m not that excited. Try this out, yes, I’m really excited about it.
And yes, I find that I can do the things that I really am in the zone on, that I naturally do well and then I focus on those things. So that evolution, it’s not really a risk thing. I’m a pragmatist. I’m very practical, focused, like a doer, but this understanding that life can take you in different directions, but you’ve got to be a lifelong learner. You’ve got to lean into your strengths. You got to evolve those is the way I found the most meaning and purpose and fulfillment.
Andi Simon: And to your point, when people say to me, how did you get to be a corporate anthropologist? I say, I made it up. And they say, you know, the imposter syndrome. I say, I’ve lived my whole life doing imposter stuff. I’ve never been fully skilled at whatever I’ve been. I spent 20 years in industry as an executive, in banks and in health care. I was a tenured professor, and I’ve been in business for 21 years now, making it up as we go along because each client’s different, each opportunity is different. But the joy is the joy of creating.
And I think that what you’ve done at Catalyst, and I want to go back to Catalyst for a moment, because I do think it’s been joyful for you, but it’s been a creative process. My hunch is, you’ve brought it along in a way that has been quite meaningful for you in the organization. Can you share with us a little bit about your own thoughts about Catalyst, about what’s happened in women in the workplace? Because this is not inconsequential. When I was an executive, I went to board meetings. There were 49 men and no other women than me. We didn’t say much. We sat there hoping we could finish the meeting without getting in trouble. It’s a different world today. What do you see happening and how is Catalyst doing stuff?
Lorraine Hariton: Well, when I came to Catalyst in 2018, Catalyst had been around almost 60 years, and it’s an iconic organization. For those of you who are not familiar, we have around 500 major corporations. We have a board of directors made up of CEOs of major organizations. I mean, it’s really a who’s who and has a tremendous brand, but the organization itself had lost some momentum. So I was brought as a change agent. I sometimes say, it was this beautiful brownstone in Brooklyn Heights that the old lady had not been renovating as much as they should have.
So I had to do a lot of infrastructure and internal changes as well as set the strategy and the plan. It’s really been a transformation. And we’re still transforming. The rate of change, the rate of technological change, is so great that every organization needs to move forward. And what Catalyst needed to do as an organization has changed over time. We celebrated our 60th anniversary a couple of years ago, so I really had a lot of opportunities to reflect on what Catalyst was.
Catalyst started with a woman who had been a Smith College graduate who wanted to go into business, and after her children got into school, she saw the doors were closed for her because in many cases, classified as gendered. You know, you could be a secretary, but you couldn’t be a salesperson. You couldn’t be an executive. Very limited choice. So her objective was to provide part time work for educated women after their kids were in school. That’s what she was trying to do.
Today we’re trying to help women thrive, from the shop floor to the C-suite, so that everyone can be successful by their own definition. Now, along the way, there’s been a lot of changes in what Catalyst focused on. And of course, what happened for women in the workplace. One of the key things that changes Catalyst is a focus not only on how women can be effective and improve their capabilities and skills, but how we change the work environment. That’s why we now talk about our mission of creating workplaces that work for women.
So a lot of Catalyst’s work is helping these companies create the environment where women can be successful. Catalyst does research and it provides a whole range of tools and capabilities to help these companies be successful, and then a lot of community and convenings to bring them together to share best practices, the need for tools and capabilities, in addition to research, has accelerated over the last ten years or so as companies really dig in to make those changes to create that environment that works for women.
So we think about things like: now we call them paternity leaves, not just maternity leaves. And in many cases in the large companies, they’re as much as four months and they’re trying to get men to do them as well as women. That’s a sea change, more flexibility. The whole pandemic accelerated this move to more flexible working, but that’s something Catalyst has been talking about for a long time. Measuring change is really important and that’s evolved.
Our most recent report that we’re going to be putting out shows that 93% of companies, large companies in the Catalyst portfolio, do pay equity studies. Now, even five years ago, they were not doing that. So that’s changed. The environment has changed radically and Catalyst has evolved with it. Also the infrastructure to support the types of skills we need, the type of technology we need, has evolved with it. But you know, just to think about this, today there are over 10% women CEOs in the Fortune 500. In my early career in the 80s and the 90s, every year that they would come out with the Fortune 500, I would look and the only person who was the CEO was Katharine Graham, who took over The Washington Post when her husband committed suicide. Now she did a great job, but she was not doing it all on her own merit.
What we see is the women who came into the workplace, like I did in the early 70s, early to mid-70s, all but in the 1950s, all entered the workplace in the 70s. Those are the ones who became CEOs around the turn of the 21st century, starting with Jill Barad at Mattel, Andrea Jung at Avon, Anne Mulcahy at Xerox, followed by Ursula Burns, Ginni Rometty at IBM, Indra Nooyi at PepsiCo…a diverse group of really talented, amazing women were the first group who really were able to do that.
Over the last five years, we’ve doubled. We now have over 30% women on boards. And in the Catalyst community, we have over 30% in senior leadership, in our membership. So what that means is there’s a new norm that’s a critical mass, 30% is critical mass. So we are critical mass on a lot of these measures. That is why Catalyst now is not focusing on women on boards. We’re focusing on how all women can thrive from the shopfloor to the sweep and every level.
So that’s an evolution of who Catalyst is. I’ve been driving that broader definition of success as we’ve evolved to what really needs to be done, and also in response to companies who understand that women have 60% of the undergraduate degrees now. They’re graduating more law degrees and more medical degrees. We have a much more diverse population. We’re focused on diversity. And that is why there’s a lot of things, a lot of political issues around DEI as a word. But the fact of the matter is, companies are very committed, so they know they have to have a diverse workforce. They’ve all got to work together. They’ve all got to feel like they belong. And in the United States and around the world, we have to be able to work together to have a really impactful, innovative workforce. So that’s what we’re working on.
Andi Simon: I am having such fun listening to you. And I don’t know if you and I have had enough time for me to hear, or my audience to hear, how the world has changed. Remember, I’m a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. What I love to do is change, and what you are articulating is your own career evolved. Catalyst’s whole mission and purpose have evolved, and the workplace that you are focused on is evolving into a whole new and much better, inclusive, exciting place for women to thrive. And isn’t this exciting to watch and see?
I’m not quite sure it’s going to go backwards, because I think that the pressure from talented women for new ways of doing things is going to transform the workplace. You know, how do you have a blended life, if not a balanced life. I met one person who was building childcare at the office because he knew that was the only way he was going to keep his workforce. What’s so hard? Why are we not paying attention to our children? You know, bring them to work and make them part of the whole culture that we have here.
And I don’t think the pandemic has been all that bad. My clients that I coached during that time, we’re actually having a wonderful experience of being home and working and doing it with a different use of time and space. But it’s a really interesting opportunity for you to see that and now to think through what’s next, a radical next. Because I have a hunch you’d love to radically change the next phase in some fashion. It’s technology, it’s transformation, it’s new openness to it. What do you see coming next?
Lorraine Hariton: Well, you mentioned technology and I mentioned I am a technologist by training. Technology drives change now. The changes that allowed women to become part of the workforce were driven by the birth control field, the vacuum cleaner, electrification, the reduction of the need for women to stay home and do all these tasks. The knowledge worker being the key person in the workplace. And that’s only accelerating. So we should understand we are the result of the worlds we live in.
My mother was a result of that. RBG was a result of that. My daughter is going to be a result of the environment that she’s a part of, as well as my grandchildren. So technology is the biggest driver of those changes. We are going to be living in a world where I hope we have more flexibility to integrate career and family, and to really be able to have women really have equal ability to make their own decisions on how they want to balance their life. I mean, that’s what we’re trying to do so that every woman thrives by their own definition of success. So that’s what we’re working towards.
Andi Simon: You know, I’m sitting and listening and I’m hopeful. I have a woman I know who’s president of a large insurance company. And we were sitting and talking not too long ago. She said, Well, let me tell you, I was a coat girl. She said, I’d walk into Lloyd’s of London with a deal, and they’d hand me their coats as the men walked in, one after another, they thought I was a coat girl. And finally after they all had sat down, and I turned around and sat at the head of the table and saidy, Now let me tell you about the deal I brought you. And the guys all went, Oh! And she said, Do you think that will ever stop? And I said, Yes. I’m not sure when but I guess you could have stopped it if you wanted to at that moment. But somehow the woman has to be able to comfortably say, I’m sorry, but the coat rack is over there, or No, I’m not taking notes today. Who shall we have as our note-taker today? How do we assert ourselves in a way that establishes a more balanced role? Now you’re smiling at me. You’re thinking about something. What are you thinking of?
Lorraine Hariton: I think there’s a two way street here. Catalyst has done a lot of work on this. Not only do the women need to do that, but the men need to become advocates and allies for women in the workplace. In fact, Catalyst has a whole initiative called MARC: Men Advocating Real Change. We’re helping the men understand how they can be part of that change because I think the clearest example is, they say that women don’t negotiate for salary increases as well as men. There’s a big pay gap, and it’s a result of this. It’s not just the women not negotiating. It’s the culture that doesn’t enable them to negotiate.
So a woman in general is much better off with someone else asking. Because it’s like this poster that I have in the back here from an unconscious bias campaign we did which says: She’s not aggressive, she’s assertive. Well, if a man goes and asks for a raise, he’s assertive and he should get a raise. A woman goes in, she’s aggressive, you know. So, we’ve got to do both of those things.
Andi Simon: I often preach that the words we use create the worlds we live in. And you just made an important point there, because the word that you use takes the same behavior and makes it good or bad. And it is very interesting because the definers of those meanings…humans are meaning makers. And if the guys are the definers of the meaning, one thing happens. But somehow we’ve got to get a balance in how we think about the behavior as being. Is it assertive or is it aggressive? Well, it’s the same behavior. Who’s defining it? And how do we then create a mirror back so the women know that that’s the right behavior and the guys understand that that’s not acceptable from them.
I work with some companies where I watch the guys’ backlash and I say, Why don’t we collaborate on the transformation instead of becoming adversarial or resisters to it? Change is humanly painful. The brain hates it. So let’s create a new story because we’re story-makers. And if I can create a new story, then we can live that new story. But if we’re going to fight the story out, it’s going to be quite interesting.
I know too many women who have left corporate because they were tired of the story that put them in the wrong role, and they went out to launch their own business or find some other place. And so it’s an interesting time for women to see what can be done and for men to help create a new environment. Are there some illustrative cases that you can share, or are they all proprietary and it’s not possible to share them? Any kind of story that might illustrate how it’s actually happening?
Lorraine Hariton: Well, I will say there are many, many stories of success. If you go to the Catalyst website, we have tons of success stories, the stories of companies that transformed themselves. We have The Catalyst Award that we give out every year at our big annual conference in Denver. People nominate themselves. They go through an application process. It was very rigorous last year. The Hartford is one of the winners of it. They have transformed the company at every level with all the things we’re talking about, measurements. They were able to get affecting bias sponsorship programs, really changing the fundamental culture of the organization. You can listen to what they do, but there’s hundreds of examples of companies that have done great jobs around it.
And of course, we have lots of examples. I mentioned some of the trailblazers, the Fortune 500, you read interviews, and books. And so there are many, many examples of successes, people who’ve affected the odds. People, companies who’ve done a great job of changing the culture. It’s all over the place. So rather than name a specific one, I think that’s good.
Andi Simon: And if people are looking for companies to work for, they probably can find illustrations at Catalyst and your website to begin to go through. And that is a real resource to be available. You know, this has been such fun. I think that we’re probably ready to share with our listeners or our viewers 1 or 2 things you want them to remember and then how to reach you if they’d like more information about you or about Catalyst. What do you think?
Lorraine Hariton: That sounds great. I think the overriding thing to say is that life is a journey. And that journey is to understand what your passions are, what gets you excited, what gets you up every day enjoying it, and then what do you really enjoy? In terms of your skills, what do you have the most to contribute to this world? And if you can align those, that’s what I try to do.
The other thing is to realize that there are lots of chapters in life, and you would need to make sure that you have the resiliency and the learning mindset to go from one chapter to the next and open the aperture around it. I’m happy to talk to anyone on this call. You can go to the Catalyst website at catalyst.org if you want to learn more about the work that we’re doing. You can get ahold of me that way as well. I’m going to be going on to my next chapter as well. So I’m opening the aperture up.
Andi Simon: Well, I can’t wait to hear about your next chapter. I have a hunch it’s going to be full of adventure and joy and beauty. And you leave behind you better places and with great purpose. Move forward. So it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for joining us today.
Lorraine Hariton: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. I really enjoyed it.
Andi Simon: I just think it’s a special moment to be able to go both into your life and all the work that you’re doing in the wonderful way it’s making a difference for my listeners and my viewers. Thank you for always coming. Remember, our job is to help you see, feel and think of new ways. And I think that a visit to Catalyst might help you see organizations that are already doing this and want to keep it going, and you can as well.
My books Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, and our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Successwith Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman are all available at Amazon and Barnes & Noble for you. It gives you a perspective both of how anthropology sees the world and helps you change, and what we see happening, particularly for women. 102 women in Women Mean Business are all here to help you change your life.
We often say turn a page and change your life. Lorraine’s chapter is wonderful. I love her little thing. Here she talks about how she navigated with her dyslexia and her principal is major. Your major is to nurture your unique gifts. And that’s what we heard about today. Thanks again. Thanks, Lorraine. It’s been a pleasure. Bye bye.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Hear why a great customer experience means everything I first interviewed Melissa Copeland for this podcast in May of 2022 and loved her story so much that I want to share it, and her, with you again. Melissa had a wonderful career, as so many women have had, only to discover that flying all over the world was not great for her family, or herself. So what did she do? Pivoted and launched Blue Orbit Consulting which focuses on improving customer interactions with her clients’ products and services. Her company’s motto: “We help clients deliver outstanding customer service by combining the best of technology and people for world-class customer experiences.” Clients love this approach, and you will too. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here The key? Delight your customers. Since 2014, Melissa Copeland and her team at Blue Orbit have worked with dozens of Fortune 500 organizations to deliver dramatic improvements in customer-centered experience. As a testament to her pragmatic approach, her clients often achieve benefits in excess of 10x their investment. Her goal is to craft solutions that empower employees, delight customers, and astonish owners.
The topic of culture change is one Melissa and I know a great deal about As you’ll hear in our podcast, Melissa and I learn from each other as we share our ideas, experiences and know-how. You can read in my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, how frustrating it is for companies, then and now, to address the core service imperative of their organization’s business. My hope is that you take away some great learning around how to step back and look at your own business with fresh eyes, and see where you might need to make some changes that will make all the diference.
If you’d like to reach out to Melissa, you can connect with her on LinkedIn, her website BlueOrbitConsulting.com, or email her at melissacopeland@blueorbitconsulting.com.
Want to know more about how to make your business’s customer experiences great ones? Start here: * Podcast: Randi Busse—How To Turn Customer Experience Into A Competitive Advantage * Podcast: Carmen Effron—Digitization of the Customer Journey * Blog: 5 Ways to Find New Customers. They are all around you!
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. My job is to get you off the brink and I go looking for people who have really interesting ideas to share with you to help you see, feel and think in new ways. That’s why today I have Melissa Copeland. And Melissa is here to talk about the customers of tomorrow, and how to serve them. But what’s really interesting is her own journey and what she sees going on in the market, and how she can help you see it through that fresh lens that I want you to have. Remember, time to get off the brink, and the times they are changing. So let’s soar together. Melissa, thank you for joining me today.
Melissa Copeland: Thanks for having me.
Andi Simon: Share with the listeners, who is Melissa and when and how did you get to where you are now? And why are you so interested in it? Please share your story.
Melissa Copeland: Sure, it’s a wandering path, but I think many people have those nowadays. It was less common when I started working, but I actually started as a documentary producer producing travel documentaries and traveling around the globe doing that which I love. It didn’t take long, about two years, for me to learn that it was really hard to afford my rent and lunch and a bus pass on the salary a documentary producer makes. So I went to business school, and business school wasn’t at all what I expected. It was much more of a structured education versus some of the intellectual inquiries that I was expecting to find. So if there is such a thing, it sounds like an oxymoron, but I was a bit of a countercultural business school student coming out of grad school.
I landed in a job in strategy at what was then Ameritech, now AT&T. I was sent to one of the wholesale divisions. So think of the really technical engineering, kind of in the more old-fashioned parts of the company. And here I was, this kid who had been a documentary producer. And my background was in history and writing. And I learned to speak engineering, and I learned to speak pension. I had more fun than I ever thought I would in the corporate world. So I was rotated in the seven years that I was there, through almost every functional area. I got a taste of strategy, sales, marketing, and wound up doing two types of international assignments. One was a startup based in Chicago. And the second was an assignment based in Brussels, Belgium for two years. And those were amazing.
A couple of the things that I really learned was that the language of business is really one of figuring out how to connect with people, and how to define problems, and then organize toward a solution, whether it’s through collaboration, whether it’s through directing, or self-directed teams, or any of those pieces. And so one of the things I didn’t expect that I’ve used my entire career since then, was during that time in Brussels, the techniques that you learned growing up in the United States to influence people with money, or sales incentives, or performance incentives, didn’t work the same way in a different culture and context. And that notion of what is my culture and context? And how do I get the results I need?
One of the things I learned was, in the US, if you wanted to get something done, you have a meeting, you divide up the tasks, and everybody goes in, does it. In the situation I was in, in Brussels, if you had a meeting, the way to get people engaged was to give everybody the opportunity to participate in the brainstorming, right? So no matter what it was, if you call it brainstorming, people were highly engaged, because everyone wanted a piece of the ideas and to really feel like, what would they be called, an influencer, but to really be part of the solution, and then folks would happily go and participate in terms of behavior change. So that has actually become a signature part of the consulting I do today.
Some from that role, I moved through a couple of different roles, but I stayed in that arena of really working on customer experience and employee experience, and helping folks move through changes that almost always benefit customer experience and customer loyalty. And that’s when I would say my love affair with customer service and contact center organization started.
Andi Simon: You formed your company Blue Orbit Consulting in 2014. Typically, I would start any interview like this and read your résumé. But I really prefer you to talk about this journey because it’s a setup for what’s happened since you set up your own company. So how did you come about? Your insights are extremely valuable today. We don’t motivate people by giving them more money that doesn’t do anything for the research work. You can give them more money, but it doesn’t mobilize them. It doesn’t motivate them. It’s not what makes them work. There’s something that took you from being inside to being a consultant having your own company. What was the catalyst?
Melissa Copeland: So I worked for many years for a consulting firm called The Northridge Group and helped build the firm, and was able to be the generalist moving across a lot of areas. The firm had tremendous success. And I have one of those hard learnings. After about 12 years there, my kids were eight and five, and I was continuing to travel almost every week. And no matter where I was, I was on the wrong continent for somebody. And we got to a point where more often than not, it was my kids, you know, or team members or clients. But it really became a challenge that it was my kids that were on the wrong side of that. So I left and I wasn’t sure what I was going to do. And that lasted, that break lasted about two months.
And we learned that I was terrible at carpooling, that I hated doing laundry, and got rid of all of our household help. But, former clients and colleagues started calling with projects and saying, hey, you’ve always been really good and helped me think through hard problems, will you come help me do this global technical support? Will you come take a look at this process problem in my organization? And that’s fundamentally how Blue Orbit was born.
So in 2014, I formed Blue Orbit. It was just me, and a couple of high school and college babysitters taking care of my kids, you know, before and after school. And as the firm grew, I really drove more focus around not just taking every phone call, though anyone that calls and says, can you help me think through this hard problem, I really enjoy hard problems. So I’m happy to help think them through, but really, drove more focus around the pieces that I think are really important as businesses grow and move forward. And that is thinking through not just the customer journey, and some of the buzzwords around that, but also thinking through the service design for how you support that customer journey, and more recently, a lot of emphasis around employee engagement.
So how do you make it easier on the employees to deliver the service design and a fantastic customer experience. So little by little, as the firm grew, it started being engagements with me and then I started building more team-based engagements to be able to implement at large organizations. Then we land where we are today where the business supports both some startup companies that are just starting on that journey. It’s tons of fun when we have a blank slate, and you’re starting with the service design from the beginning. And then the large organizations where you might have hundreds or thousands of people that you’re trying to orchestrate. And then it’s really more that collaboration and building a funnel of ideas for how can we accomplish the goals we need to get to.
Andi Simon: You and I both understand the complexity of human interaction and conversations. And the question is, what do we say to whom in what way to get what done? And that’s not casual, and every culture is different. The culture is inside each one of these, small, large and otherwise, whether in Belgium or in the States, or whatever they are, and just do things differently. And your description of the Belgium folks who wanted some autonomy, mastery and purpose, which is what we’re talking about these days, was quite different than here where command and control tell you what to do, and tactical and practical, and not much gets done. So it’s an interesting time. So some of the insights that you’re pulling together, working over the last years, 2014 was a short long time ago. And between the pandemic and all the things going on with technology and customer transformation, there’s some key themes that you and I chatted a little bit about. Can you share them with our listeners or our audience? I do think they are going through them and they want to know, what do I do now? How do I do this? Some thoughts?
Melissa Copeland: Sure. I love how you you reference the autonomy and the mastery. One of the pieces that I first tried to size up is that culture and context and organization. I do feel compelled typically to look at data, because you always have people in your team or your organization that need to be data driven. And then we also have to look at some of the more qualitative aspects of what does it take to drive change, like, are we talking about a jello situation where you’re going in and going back out? Are we talking about a situation where people are highly receptive to doing things differently?
Some of the themes and particularly changes since 2020, a big one affecting a lot of organizations, whether we call it the great resignation or not, but the balance of power has shifted in terms of employees making choices about where they want to be. And so I challenge that many large organizations and in particular contact centers are dealing with the vacancy rate in roles that may be as high as 30%. So I have two clients right now that are down about 30% of people. And that puts enormous pressure on the organization and its ability to serve customers.
To that end, there are two big themes that I’ve been working with a lot of clients on. One is the theme around, what if the customer isn’t always right? And so how do you handle that? The first studies I’ve seen in years, probably as long as I’ve been working in customer experience, started coming out in the fall, illustrating a significant change in customer behavior, meaning, historically, customers really cared about that the agent I spoke with was friendly, were they pleasant, so we’ll call that friendliness. And then they care about, is my question answered, or has my problem been resolved?
The shift in the research over the past six months is that customers care much more about how fast something happens. So the friendliness isn’t at the top anymore, although I’d say it’s table stakes in most organizations, it’s really how quickly can you get to my question, or get me an answer. And can you do it in the media that I choose to interact with you in? So can you do it by voice? Can you do it by self service? Can you do it by chat? What are the different ways that I can connect with you? So that’s one huge arena.
The second that combines the two, getting answers quickly, and then struggling with kind of making the workplace attractive for employees and making their roles easier. And so I’ll call that the employee engagement or employee enablement tools. So in customer service, and contact center, lots and lots has been written and talked about around how artificial intelligence or AI is used in bots and self service so customers can do things themselves. The real frontier that I’ve been working with clients on for the past year, and I think it’ll become bigger in the next two years, is really around how do you use that power to enable human-to-human interaction? So how do I help an agent, right, be as quick and effective with a customer that wants to interact by voice? Or they have a question or a challenge that’s too complicated for the self service arena and so how do you deploy those tools on the market in a way that really makes the agent’s job easier, and makes employees feel like they can succeed in a difficult environment, or ultimately make that environment better? So I’d say those are the two big ones that I’ve been working with folks on that I think are the trends that are here to stay for at least 2022 to 2024.
Andi Simon: As a culture change expert, I’m curious, because I had one client who had a very bad help desk. And we actually suggested they go and make their folks remote before the pandemic. They were in a fabulous position when the pandemic hit. But the remote gave their staff a much better work environment and they lost the turnover. They speeded up the responses and they realized that having them come in and sit and wait and have to get things done in place was dysfunctional for this particular organization. They were an outsourced service provider, but what was important was that the people thought about it in terms of what mattered to them. Where did it matter that they work? What hours could they work, as opposed to a box that they had to fit into, and that autonomy and mastery. They needed something to motivate them to mobilize them to want to do this as opposed to being forced into it. And so that became interesting.
My second point is that both consumers and employees are people. If you think of them as the same as very important people, then your customer and your staff are connected. It’s not separate. And so now, if we step back and look at them as one ecosystem, it’s no longer what the customer wants, it’s how the employee and my customer can solve a problem together, collaboratively, as opposed to I’ll do it in my time. You can’t. It’s really less adversarial or competitive and much more collegial. Are you seeing some of the same things?
Melissa Copeland: Absolutely. So I think one of the really interesting takeaways is, remote work is something that has been talked about for a long time. And then companies that explored it particularly for contact centers or tasted different pieces of it in very targeted areas. The pandemic forced folks to do it on a mass scale. And what many organizations found was no productivity was lost. What they had to do, though, was figure out how to recreate some of the cultural aspects that existed when you brought people together.
It’s a great example you give around the IT help desk because one of the bigger satisfiers for folks that work in centers are being able to have hours that they can manage more effectively. And so for a center, the benefit is that they can have more people working part time or split schedules or different approaches. And for employees, you’ve removed the transit piece. So they’re more open to working. So I think those are often terrific solutions.
And it’s interesting to see organizations work through what’s here to stay because when folks flipped the switch on March 2020, right, all the old processes went with them. There’s a really interesting opportunity for organizations that are willing to take a hard look. It’s one, I’ll be honest, I thought it was going to happen in 2021 and it didn’t happen that much around getting rid of some of the low value processes and activities. But I’m optimistic that this year will be the year that many organizations step back and say, we really need to do it that way, or can I make it easier on everybody. And then I don’t think I can say it better than you did around the collegial approach to problem solving.
So it’s typically a terrific scenario, when you can have an agent empowered to conduct a conversation the way they want to. And that requires a couple of things. It requires organizational trust, and having the metrics or ways to measure the effectiveness of a conversation that go beyond process compliance. So a traditional way of doing it was, here’s the process and you’re measured on how you follow it that doesn’t drive the autonomy and mastery of that process. But it doesn’t drive mastery of the customer interaction. And so seeing more organizations move toward some of the enablement tools that in order to allow agents to have the conversation that they want and need to have with a customer, you have to solve the problem.
It’s very different to achieve the same goal. So an example of some of the cooler new tools that are coming into play is some of the same artificial intelligence technology that makes self service bots work can be deployed to help agents. So the bot can be sort of listening, if you will, to the conversation and picking up key words and tone from the customer. And then prompt the agent. Here are some documents that might help you. Here are the links and the reference material so that the agent can focus on the conversation, not zooming through multiple apps, or wikis or web links, to find the information they need. And that goes toward your point around, you can really drive a collegial situation more than you can an adversarial one. You give the employee a great shot at success versus the employee feels like they’re on the front line.
Andi Simon: You raised a very important question. How do we evaluate, assess and appraise our employees? There was a great article that talked about how I never see them. I used to evaluate them based upon how I felt about it. I mean, some of the reaach proves that’s how you evaluated them. It wasn’t on their performance, per se, it was how you liked them or not. And so now they’re having a difficult time knowing what to evaluate. It’s not just compliance with a rigorous help desk script, or how fast you answer the phone, or how fast you solve the problem, or how the customer evaluated you. This is all experiential, and it’s richer in many ways and more challenging to evaluate another.
I’m not quite sure how to tap into the customer satisfaction. What does that mean? l’ll give you one little speed thing. One of the CEO groups I was doing my research with, a gentleman in fertility centers said, it used to be that we could set up an appointment with someone interested in our methodology with a doctor, you know, over time. Now they want it immediately. And if I can’t get the doctor to contact them immediately, however fast that is, they go somewhere else. And I say welcome to a world of instantaneous gratification. You know, they’re ready right now. I want that conversation. And he said, I don’t know how to put a young person in charge of it now, so they can appreciate what that young person is looking for because I can’t figure it out at all. So now, my question for you is, as you’re looking at this, how do we appraise the success of our customer service system? And what should people think about as they are evaluating their evaluation system?
Melissa Copeland: Those are great questions. So the first one is relatively straightforward. So when looking at the success of a customer service organization, or the customer experience, many of those metrics don’t change, what changes is how you use them. So in terms of data, one of the fun things about contact centers is they usually have an overwhelming amount of data. So you can see how quickly our customers connect to the answer that they want. And you should be able to calculate how many times you’re getting the customer the right answer the first time. If you can’t calculate it, that’s a great subject for us to talk about and brainstorm how to get to it. But you should know how often the agent is able to satisfy the customer. And when they can’t, you need to divide into two groups, the things that are agent specific, and the things that are systemic.
So right, no agent could have solved it, because of other other reasons. So there’s an overall framework for looking at how quickly am I serving the customer? And then, was the customer satisfied? And I would argue, most importantly, was their issue solved on the first call? That does push by the wayside some old metrics. So an older metric would be looking at how long it took. I, Melissa, typically, I don’t care how long it took, if you did it right the first time and the customers were happy, we’ve avoided future calls and interactions that become more expensive and more time consuming. And we’ve made that customer of tomorrow happy because they have patience for very little and certainly not for mistakes or ongoing back and forth about the same issue when it comes to appraising the individual.
That also is something that I love, your example that is shifting, right. So it was always something where, when people were in the same place, you would see someone at their desk, you would see if they were working, and that vision that I can see you isn’t there anymore. So that does drive more dependence on metrics. And it does drive more conversation with the individual. So one of the things that I’m seeing is more and more trends toward talking to people about how they feel. Yes, I’ve never had so many conversations about feelings. You know, I’m working with one client right now and we’re doing a large transformation program. And a lot of our conversations are, do you feel competent? Do you feel empowered? What are the things you’re struggling with? And how can I help you? So it is a much more honest move toward what I would call true coaching and development and away from some of the performance management.
And some of those organizations wind up being my favorite clients because they’re really interested in elevating the business’s performance and the people providing it. That doesn’t mean you don’t have to deal with some specific performance situations. But it’s a very different philosophy around, let’s look at your metrics, and let’s talk about how to make them better. As opposed to, here’s the threshold and that’s where you have to be.
Andi Simon: I love what you’re talking about. A great transformation, isn’t it? Because slowly we are recognizing what can mobilize people. We’re learning so much from the neurosciences, the cognitive sciences, everything from the curiosity quotient, and the emotional intelligence and all the ways the amygdala and the brain works and what really gets people excited about what they’re doing. You couldn’t have done this without the pandemic, generating this great transformation. And now we’re changing how we’re managing people, asking them to feel the way we’d like them to. People didn’t know what those words meant before but now we decide with the heart and the eyes, and how it feels. How does it look? And then intellectually, we can look at the numbers that come out of that. It’s interesting. One of the podcasts I did with Lisa McLeod was about purpose. And Joey Ryan’s work on purpose, purpose-driven companies. If you have purpose with mastery and autonomy, you mobilize people to do far better, and any other kind of ratcheting down to data-driven metrics, the data comes from being happy. And that’s not so terrible.
Melissa Copeland: I would add, though, that for many organizations, it’s a really difficult shift. People have been rewarded for a long time for complying with the process, doing the right things, and being where you’re supposed to be. There’s enormous opportunity in this transformation. But there’s also a lot of fear and support required. And so, I think the other interesting trend is, many organizations, whether you call it change management or organizational change management, or you just call it transformation, or I have been known to call it whatever I need to call it to get it done so we can call it process work. But really thinking through, how do you help people through that difference? Because particularly tenured employees will have a lot of trouble making the move.
Andi Simon: I want to add something and then we’ll wrap, because the points you’re raising for our audience are very important. We live the story in our mind. The way humans survive is that we create a story in our mind and that becomes our reality. And Melissa says something very important because the tenured employees have a story that registered well for them in the past. They really knew how to do that and keep their jobs and keep the boss satisfied. They played it really well, it was like a role on stage, where they knew how to play Macbeth really, really well. And now they have to play Hamlet. And they don’t have a clue what the script is or how to perform. And it isn’t that they resist the change, they don’t really know how to. If you put them on stage and told them to play a new role, they don’t know what to say or how to say it. They don’t know how to behave with each other. They don’t know what to expect. It’s very scary legitimately.
And the brain hates to change, it’s got a lot of cortisol floating around up there. So as you’re looking at your employees, don’t get angry. Figure out how to hire Melissa to come help you invent new ways to show them how to come to the new. We used to say, if you want to change, have a crisis or create one, because if not, your brain doesn’t pay attention. I never expected this kind of crisis. I don’t really want another one. But don’t waste it. It’s a great time. Listen, this is such fun, tell the listeners two or three things that you don’t want them to forget.
Melissa Copeland: Number one, whether or not the customer is right, finding that collegiality and collaboration is critical to customer experience moving forward. So figuring out your service design and how to deliver it is absolutely paramount. The second point would be employee enablement, and letting employees lead but giving them the tools to do so. So freeing them from some of the process compliance of prior iterations is a terrific tool to do it. And you know, I’m happy to brainstorm or chat with anyone about those.
And then one more item that your last comment made me think of is, I myself had one of these epiphanies in November. My daughter and I went from Chicago to New York, and we saw Six on Broadway. And so for those that aren’t familiar with Six, it’s about the wives of Henry the Eighth, many of whom wound up decapitated or died of illness, had all these extraordinary adventures. And we brought my aunt with us. So we covered multiple generations, and my aunt knew the history better than anyone and loved the show for the history. My daughter loved the pop music, and the takeoffs of Beyoncé and Adele, and the music that was there, and I got about half of each, and still loved it. And so I think of that as inspiration for listeners. You don’t have to be at any one extreme, but you do have to find a way to find some of the fun in it. And if you can find the fun, then you can move the culture forward.
Andi Simon: That’s a beautiful metaphor for everything you do for life, in fact, because it is the same experience seen through very different eyes. The lenses were completely different. The story was exactly the same. You all sat in the same seats and watched it and had very different experiences. How better can we wrap up our conversation today? If they’d like to reach you, what’s the best way to get ahold of you?
Melissa Copeland: I’m easy to find on LinkedIn, you can find me, Melissa Copeland, or my firm Blue Orbit Consulting, or by the website, theblueorbitconsulting.com.
Andi Simon: That’s terrific. And we’ll put all of this together on our blog. This is such fun, you and I could talk a great deal about the dilemmas and the opportunities. Remember, don’t waste a crisis and you’re coming out of a very unusual one, but this is a time that has pushed us to transformation, great transformations. Some of us love it and others can’t figure out how to get back to what was, but you can’t. I doubt we’ll ever see what was, we don’t even remember what it was. So it’s hard to go back. But instead, it’s a time to create your future. So don’t waste it. It’s a great time to do it. And this has been terrific today.
For all of you who come, thank you for joining us. You come from around the globe. I mean, we’re ranked in the top 5% of global podcasts. I’m honored. You send me great people to interview. info@andisimon.com is where you can get to me. But the most important thing today that I’d like to share is, buy my books, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. You can get them on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or wherever you like to buy books. But the point of the books is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And this podcast is here to do the same. My job is to help you get off the brink and soar. And sometimes you need a little catalyst, a little push, a little nudge because as we know, we get attached to that shiny object and we don’t want to let go but the times are changing. So enjoy the trip. Stay well and enjoy your day. Have a good one. Bye now.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Hear how a family firm can remember its roots while focusing on the future As they say, family is family and business is business. But in many cases, the two can coexist, often quite profitably. Did you know that almost 80% of the businesses in the U.S. are owned and run by families? As a corporate anthropologist, a culture change expert and a daughter raised in a family business, I have a particularly strong interest in family firms, which is why I’m so excited to bring to you Dylan Rexling, the fifth generation to work in his family’s farm operations in southwestern Indiana. He read my book On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and was inspired to incorporate many of its teachings into the way he runs his company. Whether or not you have a family firm, listen in to learn about running a successful business.
Dylan is that rare business owner who values every employee and actually listens to his customers. Key takeaways from our conversation:
- Get to know your employees. He has a monthly Friday breakfast where everyone talks about who they are, why they’re at the company, and what their goals are.
- Admit you’re not perfect. Dylan’s message to his workers: “My door’s open. Come see me. If we do something that we shouldn’t have done, or we said it in a way that we shouldn’t have, come talk to us because we don’t know if you don’t tell us.”
- Culture is very important in a business. He specifically hired culture experts who brought in the concept of culture to the organization.
- Always be willing to learn and get better. There’s always room to go a step higher.
- Do everything you can to service your customer. If they need something, do everything in your power to say yes, even if it’s not easy. The old saying is still true: the customer is first.
- Treat your employees well. And your customers. Dylan writes an anniversary card to every one of his employees every time they hit an anniversary date. “I just write a little thank you that says, ‘I really appreciate your contributions to our team and look forward to working with you in the future.'” He also sends handwritten notes to customers thanking them for their business. “I think those little things are what matter.”
- Take a step back and look at your business from a high level. “And I think you’ll be very happy that you did so well,” he notes.
To connect with Dylan, you can find him on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter or his website PFL Logistics.
Want to learn more about the importance of culture, especially in family firms?
- Podcast: Jake Manthei—A Family Firm That Lives Blue Ocean Strategy®
- Podcast: Amy Bruske—A Guide for Sustaining Great Family Businesses
- Podcast: Marcella Bremer—Build a Better Business With an Amazing, Positive Culture
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. And as you know, what I love to do is find people that are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways because that’s how you open your mind and begin to see opportunities. We often say, the future is all around us, it’s just not widely distributed yet. But what if what’s happening is something you could see so that you can understand it? Maybe I can as well, because in some ways, the story that you’re going to hear today is going to help you rethink what you’re doing and begin to open that door so that you can get off the brink.
I have with me today, Dylan Rexing. I’m honored to share him with you. I met him out in Indianapolis at a Vistage group, and I think what they’re doing is transformational to an industry that’s sluggish. I’m going to let him tell you more about it, but let me tell you about his bio. Dylan Rexing is president and CEO of Rexing Companies, an Evansville-based network of family-owned and operated companies. So if you have a family firm or are thinking of building one, this is really good insights to share.
Dylan is fifth generation in his family’s farm operations, where he grew up learning the value of hard work and financial responsibility. But under his leadership, the Logistics Division of PFL Logistics has earned recognition as one of the 5,000 fastest growing private companies for the past four years. I’m going to let him tell you his story, but I think you’re going to enjoy his journey because it’ll change your own story about what’s possible. If only you can open your mind to see and then do some observation into innovation. Dylan, thank you for joining me today. I’m so excited to have you.
Dylan Rexing: Yeah, thanks for having me. Good seeing you again.
Andi Simon: It’s good to see you again. Dylan said he was away and read my book and I went, Oh, isn’t that good reading on the beach? And I appreciate it. Dylan, please, let’s hear your story. Your journey as you were sharing it with me is really a perfect setup for today’s talk.
Dylan Rexing: So, as you had mentioned, I’m generation five in our family business. When I took over the family operation, we were really just an agricultural-based company. We farm about 3000 acres. We had 120,000 chickens. And I took over out of college. I have a bachelors in accounting. And I determined that I didn’t want everything that we did to be out of our control. So as a farming operation, we’re not in control of the weather. So when we plant our crops is not determined by us, the yields that we get are also determined by Mother Nature. Then when we take it to market, it’s really what the market bears.
And so I sort of took over our organization. We still farm. It’s still part of our legacy. Farmers are a backbone of the American economy. I don’t want to necessarily downplay that by any means. It’s still an important part of our business. But I sort of took our business and made a full 360. We have about 90 employees today in the supply chain space. And so we have three companies: cold storage, warehouse trucks and a trucking company where we have trucks and drivers, and then a freight company where we sort of work with our customers and partner with our customers to move freight all over the country.
And so, for me, as you mentioned, I was on vacation last week and you were nice enough to give me a copy of your book On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, and I read it and talked about how you sort of put on a different lens and look at the world in a different way. It resonated with me. If you get an email from me, at the very bottom underneath my signature it says: “The most dangerous phrase in the English language is ‘as we’ve always done it.'”
Andi Simon: Dylan, you have no idea how many clients hire me to help them change that. The first thing they say is, No, we don’t do it that way. And I say, Then you don’t need me. If that’s the way you’re going to do it, the habits will drive you. But the times are changing, and maybe those habits are no longer viable or valuable or reliable for you.
But, you know, you have a curious mind. And as you and I were talking, that curiosity factor is not to be underestimated. How did you begin to figure out the logistics part? Or, you could have abandoned where you were, but you didn’t. You could have sold it, which you haven’t. But now you’ve taken a bigger picture and have begun to develop a new set of solutions for the whole supply chain of. And I have a hunch there’s some interesting new things coming as well. How did you begin? Where did it start?
Dylan Rexing: Well, believe it or not, you might wonder, how does agriculture and supply chain tie together? And the fact of the matter is, it’s very common for farmers to own supply chain-driven businesses. For example, farmers have to have semis and trailers to take product out of the fields and take them to market. But they only do that for several weeks or a month or so, two months a year. So you buy this equipment and it just sort of collects dust per se.
So the way it started was, we had all this equipment lying around that we were trying to figure out, What do we do with it? And then the cold storage business is kind of the diamond in the middle that sort of connects it all. Our cold storage business: we have customers, big and small, from large poultry companies to bakeries to anything in the middle. And so those all tie in because of the stuff that we store in our warehouse. Our cold storage food product that we store, it has to get to market. It has to get to the grocery store, or it has to get to a plant to be further processed. And so it was all sort of tied together through a supply chain lens.
Andi Simon: Now your clients come to you for any particular reason? Have you differentiated your cold storage in some fashion? Is it fully integrated? You make it simple and easy for them. What are the kind of core attributes of it?
Dylan Rexing: So we like to tell folks, we’re a one-stop shop. So you can call us and we can store your products, you can call us and we can haul your products. We don’t necessarily have to, but we just try to make it easy and convenient for our customers. The cold storage business is pretty niche. There aren’t a ton of companies in the US that are in the cold storage warehouse space and buy cold storage warehouses. For your listeners that maybe don’t understand that, it’s basically a building where we store products that are frozen, refrigerated, fresh, so that they’re nice and healthy for folks in the supply chain, but just a high level of how that works.
Andi Simon: Okay. But you bring them into the cold storage. You said that there aren’t many cold storage businesses, and I am always curious whether you’re doing it like everyone else. And, you and I were together when we talked about being another “red ocean,” or someone who is creating a market. And I hear you because you make it simpler and easier for your clients to get what they need done without having to work as hard, making it simple instead of complex, and beginning to see ways to add value innovatively so that maybe it’s not a Blue Ocean®, but it has all the attributes of a good market creator, not simply “we are another.” Am I saying that correctly?
Dylan Rexing: So I would say, there’s only two large players in the cold storage business that own over 60% of the market. And so one of the ways we differentiate ourselves is by answering the phone when the customer calls. No offense to large companies, but when they get big, there’s several layers of folks in the middle.
And so one of the ways we differentiate ourselves is, we personalize our approach to the customer. If they need something, we do everything in our power to say yes, even if it’s not easy. And so I think ultimately the farming background that I have is sort of driven by the fact that, it sounds a little cheesy, but the customer is first. And we do everything that we can to service that customer.
And interestingly enough, most of our customer base does business with all three of our companies. So we try to anchor them in from one or the other and then convert them from being just a single customer to three of our operating entities. But our secret sauce really is just doing what we say we’re going to do, answering phones, answering emails, and just providing a good service.
Andi Simon: How interesting, simple and yet very profound and very much appreciated and needed by your community, by your markets. Are you located just in Indiana or are you across the country or where are you located?
Dylan Rexing: So our warehouses, we have four locations in Indiana, all in southwest or southeastern Indiana. Our trucking division, we have a location in Owensboro, Kentucky, about 45 minutes from us here. And we also have an operation in the Carolinas. We have several employees out there in the Charlotte, North Carolina area, a little city called Troy. So we aren’t all over the country, but we have trucks that travel in all contiguous 48 states. But our headquarters is mainly here in southwestern Indiana.
Andi Simon: It sounded when you and I were talking, though, that so many companies today have people problems. But I have a hunch you don’t. And I have a hunch there’s some core values that are working well for you. Can you share with our listeners about how you attract and retain? Is it the metaphor of family? What do you find works particularly well? Because I do think that’s a much needed wisdom to share with folks who aren’t quite sure how to do that anymore.
Dylan Rexing: You know, I would say that we’re not perfect, and I don’t think really anyone is. We’ve grown over the years. I mean, if you look back in the history books of our business in 2010, we had zero employees and 13 years later we have 90. And so we’ve obviously had some struggles along the way. We’re still learning. I tell folks, when we onboard, we’ve hired so many people as of late that I don’t know their faces. I don’t know their names, I don’t know what their hobbies are or what makes them tick. And so we started having a Friday, a monthly breakfast where we bring in bagels and sit down and just talk about who they are and why they’re here and what their goals are and those kinds of things.
And I just found it important to sort of personalize each person; it’s kind of embarrassing when someone works for us and I don’t know who they are. And so I made it a purpose to sit down with them and just take an hour out of the month and just get to know them. But when I end those meetings, I tell folks all the time that, you know, we’re not perfect. My door’s open. Come see me. If we do something that we shouldn’t have done, or we said it in a way that we shouldn’t have, come talk to us because we don’t know if you don’t tell us.
And so I would say that culture is very important in a business. I didn’t even know what the word culture meant probably 4 or 5 years ago. I didn’t really understand it. I thought you just went to work and you busted your butt until you got the job done. And again, I didn’t really understand it. And we hired a couple of people that really brought culture to our organization.
And so I would say, you know, as far as attracting and retaining talent, we’re better than the average company. We still have room to go. One of the things Vistage will teach you, and I’ve only been in Vistage a little over almost two years, is if you’re not willing to always learn and get better, you’re just going to get passed by. And so when people say, Well, how do you know how you are doing? And in the employee area, I always tell folks, I think we do a fabulous job. But, you know, there’s always that room to go a step higher.
Andi Simon: Particularly since the folks you’re hiring are all coming from an age at a different time. They’ve had different experiences, you know, and the Google search for culture and culture change is has been going up like this for a couple of years now, something we specialize in because people don’t know, as you’re saying, what is it? And if you have a toxic one, you don’t even know why. And if you have a good one, you can’t figure out how to keep it going. And it’s the thing that makes humans so special.
We must have meaning, and as you’re talking, it’s important to get your folks to understand that they matter in the larger scheme of your business, that they aren’t just a cog in the wheel, that their feelings matter and and they’re changing and you want them to help build a better business. And it’s interesting because I have a hunch your clients look upon them as assets, as real value providers, not just tactical and practical people. I mean, is there kind of a blend of your culture into your clients?
Dylan Rexing: Yeah. I mean, I would say we have customers, we have employees on site at customers’ facilities. We have some that work on their site. Not only are they there occasionally to do a pick up or a drop, but we have sites where our employees sit at a desk next to our customer, which is a little odd at times. And so we have to sort of manage that.
Our culture and their culture have to kind of mix and we have to make sure that our employees are in a good space. But, I would say it’s important to have employees that want to work for you. And that you treat your employees well. One of the small little tricks that I’ve taken from my time and in some books I’ve read, is that I write an anniversary card for every one of our employees every time they hit an anniversary date. I just write a little thank you that says, I really appreciate your contributions to our team and look forward to working with you in the future.
It’s really short and sweet, but I think we’ve sort of lost touch as a country or a globe, that everything is social media driven and everything’s on our phone. And so our folks appreciate me taking the time to just literally get out a pen and write down a nice little note. And we also do that for customers. So we’ll send handwritten notes to customers thanking them for their time listening to us about X, Y or Z. Maybe it’s the curious mind in me, but I just sometimes think those little things are what matter.
Andi Simon: Oh, I want to say, sometimes I think it is. I was on a plane coming back from Houston, Houston or Lexington. Unfortunately, I’m on a plane every week, and this flight attendant wrote me a personal note thanking me for being Executive Platinum on American Airlines, and how much she appreciated my loyalty and service. You know, often I get things from American to thank me but this is the second time I’ve gotten a handwritten note and I took a picture of it. And I just think it’s a nice touch that makes it seem like you’re not just a cog in this thing, that maybe it matters. And it mattered to this particular flight attendant. And she was very gracious about it. She said, I just want you to know how important this is. And I went, Well, I don’t know who trained you, but you got a heart that’s bigger and sometimes the flights are good and they work, and sometimes they don’t. And after a while you just take whatever you get, right? But it was very touching.
So yours has a ripple effect because I have a hunch your folks then say thank you to their folks and their clients say, Isn’t this a nice thing? And all of a sudden the community has an appreciation for each other, bigger than the task at hand, am I right?
Dylan Rexing: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I think what we try to do is, and it’s changed over time, but we want to make our community and our world a better place than when we took it over. Right? And so the little things about saying thank you and writing little notes to your employees and customers, I hope that puts a smile on our people’s faces. And I hope when we send it to vendors and customers that it makes them feel better. And it’s just trying to make the place we live in a little better. Ultimately, I don’t know the exact statistics, but we spend more time with our colleagues at work than we spend at home with our family. If you don’t love or enjoy where you work, you need to make a change, right?
Andi Simon: Well, you can tell the folks how to reach you if they’re curious and how to join you. I am curious, though, when we were talking about the future and the things that you’re already seeing as ways to improve, even a very good model that you’ve got. And I do think that the times are changing fast, and sometimes there’s a little idea that comes and adds great value. Can you share something about the work that you’re doing now?
Dylan Rexing: So we’ve got a new program with one of our companies, PFLAG, that we’ve been working on bringing to light. It started in July. Let me take a step back. The biggest fear I have as a business owner is that I’m the taxi cab that gets replaced by Uber, a great metaphor, or I’m a Blockbuster that gets replaced by Netflix. That’s my biggest fear is that we started and we put all this tremendous effort and thought into our industry or in our several businesses, and that’s just my biggest fear that someone comes in and just replaces us like that.
And so I’m always trying to think of different ways to differentiate ourselves. And so we’ve got a new program for our logistics business that’s really unique. It’s probably the only one in the country. And we ultimately give our customers more control and transparency over their supply chain and where their product is and how much it costs and those kinds of things. So it’s kind of cheesy to say, but we’ve become a partner of our customer, not really just a vendor. We’ve become partners. So we’re integrated into their system. And like I said, we have employees that sit next to their employees in their building. And so we’ve just become an important piece of their business. And just the reason it came up is, again, I just was extremely concerned that we were going to be the taxicab. And I just don’t want to do that.
Andi Simon: But your metaphor, your aha, is that it’s happened, to Airbnb and Blockbuster could have bought Netflix, but didn’t think that was anything. Let’s not forget, there was a Sears catalog before an Amazon ever existed. And now no more Sears and lots of Amazon. And you wonder who’s going to tackle that one.
But to your point, unless you try and you don’t really know what’s of value to your partners, I love the idea they’re collaborators with you. Together you both rise, and without those customers partnering, you can’t grow either. I mean, you can’t have empty cold storage. It doesn’t do much good. And we can’t because you’re delivering the food to us in a way that’s fast and easy and really affordable.
More often than not, we believe it’s getting to be challenging. You know, I’m enjoying our conversation. The thing that I really do think is that there are some lessons that you’ve learned that you want our listeners to hear: one, two or three of them that really impacted you because you are different than when you started to do this transformation and things are working, I have a hunch, better than you might have anticipated, but we can’t necessarily know the future. We just can plan for it. Some lessons you’ve learned that you want to share.
Dylan Rexing: You know, I’m going to hit the same topic again. But I think it’s extremely important. I think for someone that’s trying to start a business, or maybe they’ve already started one and they’re kind of in a growth phase or anything in between, I think you need to walk in every day and think about how you’re going to replace yourself. Because if you don’t walk in your office every day or your building or wherever you work every day and think about how am I going to get replaced, someone’s going to replace you. Maybe it’s not tomorrow. Maybe it’s five years from now. But ultimately that’s the world that we live in. It’s moving much faster today than it ever has. So I think that’s one important piece that I’d like to share.
The other piece I like to share is to listen to all the stakeholders in your area. So listen to your employees, listen to your vendors, listen to your customers. You learn more from that than you’re going to learn anywhere else. There’s my neighbor who ran a $1 billion manufacturing plant down the street from us. And he said, What I would do is, I’d have this scheduled time every Wednesday, I think it was where I’d walk the plant floor. It was a manufacturing business, a big one in our area. And every week he made a point, for a couple hours, to walk around and just walk the plant floor and talk to his people.
A lot of folks in today’s world, especially in my age group, I like to pick on my age group, I’m a little younger and we do some things better, but we also struggle in some areas, and people in my age group want to manage behind a desk or behind a spreadsheet or something of that nature. And I think it’s just important to kind of get out there and get in front of the stakeholders of your business.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, as an anthropologist, I can tell you that you really don’t know what you don’t know. And you can ask people and they’ll tell you a story about what they think it is you want to hear. But that gentleman who went out to look and see is how we actually learn. And unless you’re in the trucks or in the cold storage route with your own customers, you’re imagining what it is they’re struggling with and where you could add value innovatively.
My husband was a serial entrepreneur in his last business. He spent a whole lot of time just listening, trying to hear what people were challenged by and not assuming we knew because we really don’t know. We think we know, but we are imagining what it is like there. And so that point is a really powerful one.
You know, this has been fun. Do you have your folks also coming back with things they’ve heard from customers that feed into an innovation, you know, culture in some fashion? My last question and then we’ll do a wrap up because I do think they hear more than we will ever hear.
Dylan Rexing: So when we were at Vistage in Indy together, you had spoken about going to your customer service team to listen. Our business isn’t necessarily set up that way. And so it’s still in the back of my brain as to how to get ideas from not just myself talking to folks, but to get ideas from other folks in our organization. So stay tuned on that. It’s one piece that I sort of wrote down as a takeaway, and an important one for sure. I think what Vistage says is, It’s a day to work on your business, not in your business. That’s kind of their metaphor.
I think my last piece of advice would be: sometimes we get really busy in the day to day of whatever fire is out there. Take a step back and sort of look at your business from a high level. And I think you’ll be very happy that you did so well.
Andi Simon: And I love the idea of taking a Wednesday and being an observer, and give it enough frequency so that you can really begin to see. And offline, you and I can talk about some ideas about how to get your talent out there to begin to feed things back in because there’s always gaps for pain points that they hear.
My favorite story is someone who said to a Vistage member, what “What if’s” could you have benefited from? And he said, We ignored all those. That wasn’t what we sold him, and then we asked where all the opportunities were. So he created the “what if” sales process. Don’t sell what we sell, listen to what they need. And I went, Oh, that’s not hard. And he said, But I didn’t hear a word that customer was saying, and that’s where all my opportunities were. So it’s pretty cool stuff. Where can they reach you if they’d like to get ahold of you?
Dylan Rexing: The best way is the Contact Us page on our website. My office number’s on there. My email address is on there. I’m happy to talk to anybody at any time and see if there’s a way I can improve your business.
Andi Simon: Good. I am reluctant to share on the recordings because they’re there for a long time and sometimes we don’t want them there for a long time. But I thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure today. So this is fun. I have to tell Steve McFarland this was just a treat and he should send me some more of his folks. They’re really remarkable people. It was wonderful.
For those of you who don’t know about Vistage, I’ll put a plug in. I think I’ve done 503 or 504 Vistage talks, mostly on: change matters, how to find new markets Blue Ocean Strategy-style or culture change or innovation. But Vistage is an organization of CEOs and key leaders from companies across the world now, and it brings them together for them to listen and grow and learn.
In my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, six of the eight stories in there are Vistage members. And it’s a great way to understand how Vistage folks begin to open their minds to possibilities, and it gives us great opportunities to help them see things through a fresh lens, which is my job.
For those of you who came today, as always, thank you for joining us. It’s so much fun to do podcasting. It’s a way of sharing people and ideas and you don’t need to listen to me alone. This was a marvelous time to share and I’m just glad we’re growing together. I feel like a partner. Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman, is behind me here, and for those of you who may have bought it, I’m getting great reviews on Amazon. If you haven’t bought it yet, Amazon, Barnes and Noble and local booksellers have it, and we are on the book tour. If you want to hear us speak about how Women Mean Business, I’d be delighted to share with you. There are 102 women in it. They’re all leaders in their field who share their five wisdoms, and help others do better together. And that’s what we’re all about.
So it’s been fun. Thank you for coming to On the Brink. My job is to help you get off the brink. And, so thank you Dylan, it’s been a pleasure. Have a great day. Bye bye now.
Learn how to be your own boss and the power of saying no
Those of you who are wondering whether it’s time for you to leave that corporate life and start your own business, you’re going to love my guests today, Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoit Nadeau. They’re freelance writers and translators and the authors of the new book Going Solo: Everything You Need to Start Your Business and Succeed as Your Own Boss. Many aspiring entrepreneurs have plenty of skill and passion but don’t have a sense of how to run a business, which makes their advice so valuable. Are you an entrepreneur or solopreneur? You really should listen in.
Watch and listen to our conversation here According to Julie and Jean-Benoit, a good business plan is basically six questions: 1. What do you want to do? 2. Why do you want to do it? 3. What’s the market? 4. What price do you want to offer? 5. What will you bring to people? 6. What’s the purpose, the “what for”?
To connect with them, visit their LinkedIn page or their website.
Want to learn more about what makes successful entrepreneurs successful? Here’s a start:
- Blog: 10 Qualities To Drive Your Success As A Female Entrepreneur
- Blog: The 5 Things You Need To Know To Successfully Scale Your Business
- Podcast: Marsha Friedman—How A Woman Entrepreneur Took A Little Idea And Turned It Into A Big Business
- Podcast: Sharon Cully—Great Ideas to Help Entrepreneurs Gain Time and Success
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. And remember, my job is to get you off the brink. So I want to bring to you people who are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways. You know, and this is always my starting speech, because what I want my audience, whether you’re watching or you’re listening, is to learn something new. And the best way to do that is to see it and feel it and begin to get the stories from someone else who has done it and say, Oh, I can do that too.
So today I have a wonderful couple here to share with you their story and a new book. Let me tell you about them. Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoit Nadeau are the authors of Going Solo: Everything You Need to Start Your Business and Succeed as Your Own Boss. So those of you who are out there wondering whether or not it’s time for you to leave that corporate life and start your own business, or you’re already starting the business and want to know how to succeed at business, or you’re really thinking about, I don’t know, going back into business, it’s a good time to listen in and think about your own purpose and passion and where you could really have a great trip.
They are prize-winning authors and journalists. The husband and wife pair have been running a freelance writing business for over three decades. Look at the books behind them. I just love books and so many folks have no books. And I’m a book author and I love books. They’ve spoken across Canada, the US, Europe and Japan. Their work has appeared in The New York Times, USA Today, The International Herald Tribune, France’s L’Express, and more.
They’ve published 15 books, written over a thousand articles, won more than 30 journalism and literary awards. They’re avid travelers, they’ve lived in Paris, which I love, where John Boehner was a fellow of the Washington-based Institute for Current World Affairs. They’ve been to Toronto and Phoenix, where Julie was a Fulbright Scholar at Arizona State University. They’re trilingual in English, French and Spanish, and they are based in Montreal, where they live with their twin daughters. I’ve told you enough. It’s enough for you to see that I got somebody really cool here for you today, and they’re going to help you. Just like I want to see things through a fresh lens. Thank you, Jean-Benoit and Julie, thanks for joining me.
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: Thank you. Thank you very much for having us.
Andi Simon: Now Jean-Benoit has told me I can call him JB. Tell us about your own journey. It’s one thing to read a bio, it’s another thing to begin to think through, How did they get here? Why this book at this time? You certainly have written lots. Jean-Benoit, would you like to start about your journey?
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: Okay. I began as a writer in 1987. As a journalist. I’d done some theater before that. I’d studied engineering, decided in the end that I wanted to earn a living writing, and began as a writer. And since I was not that employable because I had no experience, I started freelancing, which was my destiny as a creator. Anyway, I realized later that a couple of things went well. I got my degree in political science, and was freelancing, meanwhile, and in 1993 things were going well and a magazine in Montreal offered me a job. I took the job and I was employed 29 days and I quit. That’s when I became self-employed by choice. My father is an engineer. He had his own consultancy, which became quite large eventually, but he was an entrepreneur, and he’s the first person who told me, because I was telling him, I have no job, What am I? Oh, he said, you’re self-employed. Oh really? He said, Yes. I know what it was.
Andi Simon: Bravo to your father.
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: And then we discussed frequently until he became sick at the beginning of the middle of the year 2005. He was a good mentor. He mentored us a lot. And we realized quite early that a lot of the problems we were going through were the same that he was going through as an engineer. Aside from writing, you know, how do you negotiate? How do you manage without losing time? How do you finance your business and all these things?
And I gave seminars first for journalists because I had a certain amount of success as a writer. So I was giving seminars to journalists. And then in 1997, I published a book which is the original version of the book in French for the Quebec market. And I started giving speeches in Chambers of Commerce and associate trade associations and realized that I was right on the advice that we had developed, because I was already partnered with Julie. So the advice that we were developing applied to everybody who wants to be creative in their work, really. And then we never had good success. We sold like 30,000 copies of the book in the tiny Quebec market and in French. And Julie said at one point, That book is absolutely translatable. So we got the rights back from my publisher and she translated it, and here we are.
Julie Barlow: So I had been thinking for years and years of translating it, but just got buried under other projects. My writing career began much like jazz. I stumbled into it, began writing music, music reviews when I was in university. And I lost my confidence. I didn’t come from a background with a father who was an entrepreneur. I didn’t come from a business background at all. I didn’t even know you could really make a living as a writer.
Andi Simon: Aha.
Julie Barlow: And that’s not unusual in our field, you know, for people to have a skill and develop it but not have any sense of how to run a business. So I finished my education, finished my master’s degree, and then just started out. And, nevertheless, even with that help that we had, there’s a number of skills you have to really develop in order to make your passion into a business. Basically, I felt very fortunate to have your dad. And of course, we developed our own, our own by trial and error.
And over the decades we developed our skills and our tips, and I was very happy to translate the book. We have two editions of it: one for the United States and one for Canada. And it’s just great to share with others, not just creative people, but people who want to live their passion. They want to do what they want to do. They want to leave a job, start out fresh, out of school or whatever. There’s just some basic things that you need to understand to make it work so that you don’t get drowned in frustrations.
Andi Simon: You know, it’s interesting while I’m listening to you. So I’m in business 22 years now, and I launched my business after being in corporate as an executive in two banks and as an executive in two hospitals. And prior to that, I was an anthropology professor. I got my tenure and I was a visiting professor teaching entrepreneurship. And I was on a journey because I knew I was an anthropologist. I like to apply it among businesses that are going through change because people hate change. And I sort of helped them see, feel and think in new ways.
But when I launched it after 911, my PR firm said to me, Oh, Andi, you’re a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. And I went, Bingo. And so in a sense, he defined my passion, my purpose, the why. Then the question was, how? And I did what I used to do anyway, which was start to have lunch with people, you know, never eat alone. We started to network and network and network. And next thing you know, I had a half a dozen clients and I went, Oh, this is fun. This is free. And I’m having a great time being me.
And I do think that part of the passion and purpose is knowing who you are, not just what you do, but it’s sort of my story. I want to go back to yours. When you began to help people through the book, let’s talk about a process, a way of thinking. Because remember, we live the story in our mind. And so now the question is, typically the people who are going to read this book, what kind of story, what are they trying to do? Give them the wisdom and the lessons learned that you have. So the book complements it in some fashion. Who would like to start it?
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: I think that a very important moment in the process of thinking of ourselves as entrepreneurial was the realization that it’s so hard to change. And as an anthropologist, you’ll understand. Historically, people used to be all self-employed. And the people who were employed were at the bottom of the scale. They didn’t own their means of production, and they were at the bottom of the scale. And around the 19th century, that scale shifted. The people who were employed moved up socially, and it became a goal of education to have a job.
We all went to study in order to have a job. We don’t say to people, Study well, you’re going to have your own enterprise. We never say that to kids. We tell them to study well, you’ll have a job. So then I realized I will never have a job. What am I going to do? Well, I’m going to have work. Yep. So that’s what self-employed is. You don’t have a job, but you have work and you don’t have a boss. You have a client who is your equal because you are your own boss and you don’t have a salary. You have income which you build.
But you see, it took me about 4 or 5 years even to send a bill to my clients because I thought it was pretentious. I’m sorry, I was an artist. I was a writer. I came from the theater. So at one point they would look at their books and say, Oh, we haven’t paid this guy, so let’s send him a check. That’s how I was paid. So of course, that was the big moment of understanding that that’s too much work. I don’t have a job.
Andi Simon: So, you know, Julie, I’m going to let you pop in, but I want to just set the context because I’ve been coaching some young women in their 20s, some are graduating from college, some have graduated and have had a couple of jobs. But I’m not sure that they know who they are, what they’re doing, or why they’re doing it. But I will tell you that the education in college makes them seem as if they’re fully competent at something. They just don’t know what that something is or where to find a company that wants their something. And I’m disturbed at the disconnect between their job, work, passion, purpose. Julie, your turn please. I didn’t want to cut you off, but I wanted to set the stage.
Julie Barlow: One of the big places where you see this problem of flipping from feeling like somebody’s in control of what you produce and what you do, comes in negotiating, which is something we talk a lot about with writers who tend to think there’s a system that they fit into and there’s a certain amount that they will get paid. And they tend not to think that they’re in the driver’s seat. And so they get exploited. And one of the big problems is that people who, and you see this sometimes when people who leave a job to start working freelance, they just think of their clients as their bosses. And they even use that term. They say well, the boss says, the bosses, and they don’t start from a position of power, which is that they can sell or not sell, and sometimes it’s just worth walking away.
I mean, I have this discussion with fellow writers a lot. There are clients who are just not good clients, and they’re hurting you and they’re not paying you fairly and they’re wasting your time. You could be using your means and whatever it is you sell or produce to make money from somebody who appreciates it, you know? So one of the big things is avoiding bad clients and learning to say no. So we have a little section in the book of 16 Ways to Say No. It’s very popular with people. You have to learn when to say no and how to walk away from things. And sometimes saying no is what really radically, suddenly improves your condition. I mean, you need to be able to do that. It’s tough for people.
Andi Simon: Well, it’s interesting because I remember my first client who I said, “I’m really not good for you and you’re not good for me. So I think you should find somebody else for your sake.” And I remember that feeling of freeing myself, but allowing them to be free of me as well, because we were simply not going to make it. And it was for your sake. And I’m sure that because it was a perspective that it wasn’t my problem but for your benefit, it’s time to go. But I’ve learned that no is a good word.
Julie Barlow: Yes, it is a good word. And it can even bring a bigger yes at the end of the day from somebody else. I recently, last year, said no to a really, really what could have been a very lucrative writing contract with somebody that I just knew we were not a good fit. You know, you have to, and we talk about this as well in the book, you have to explore fairly carefully with your client. Make sure they understand what they’re getting, make sure they understand what you’re giving them. Yes, you’re on the same terms.
Things have to be clear from the beginning or you have problems down the line. And I just could not get through to them. We just could not see eye to eye on the thing. But, we left on good terms and I said, I’m sorry, I’m just not going to do this anymore. The word about what I had done with them traveled back to his literary agent which came back to me in the form of another book contract. So I absolutely understood what I did. But, you know, these are the lessons that you learn as a business person, clients’ expectations. And again, it’s the boss-client mentality. You have to take the time to make sure that you understand their expectations and that they understand what they’re getting or you just end up with problems with them.
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: People make a lot of fuss about the business plan. We’ve got questions about that. And I say, yeah, I know, but we say, the business plan is basically five questions. What do you want to do? Why do you want to do it? What’s the market? What price do you want to offer? What will you bring to people? That’s just the basics. If you need financing or an associate, you may need to write almost a book business plan, a book-size business plan. But a good business plan can fit on 2 or 3 pages. But there’s a sixth question, which I forgot, that I didn’t mention, which I think is the most important: What for, the purpose?
But your goal, your personal goal, where do you want to go with that? Do you want to teach social dancing? A lot of people want to turn their passion into a business, and that’s good. That’s often why people go with you. Self-Employment. Well, you’re not going to once things start running and that can come pretty quickly. You’ll go somewhere if you know where you want to go, and you will not even decide who your clients are. And if you want to start teaching for the purpose of creating a franchise of social dancing, or create a shoe for social dancing, you are not going to choose your clients in the same way. Your venues, the place where you’re going to showcase them, etcetera. And it’s the same with a writer. You are not going to do all the thousands of choices you have to do in your daily business. If you want to be a publisher or have an agency, or want to be an editor in chief, or move into book writing or film, these are all personal choices. There’s nobody who’s going to tell you which is right, but it’s very important, it orients you.
Andi Simon: But I also think, I can’t tell you how many folks come in by referral. Sometimes they find us on the internet and they are trying to do what they did in the corporate world in an independent freelance business fashion, but they don’t really understand that things are different. You know, they did this there and therefore I’m going to do this now. I said, But there you had the brand of the big company and you had a network and so forth. Why should somebody hire you now? And how are you going to actually build a revenue stream, a client base, have a business with it, as opposed to being an employed person who used to do something.
This means the story changes, but they aren’t thinking about how to do it actually and they have no idea. Very often your book is very valuable about how I think about myself now? Because when I said I’m a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change, to be honest with you, I knew people had to change, they didn’t care how I did it, and I admitted I picked that one up. I knew that the whole sales process was about, you know, where are your gaps? Where’s your pain point? How can I help? How I did it, they didn’t care. But it’s a very important piece. They really didn’t know what an anthropologist would do, but it was interesting to watch the transformation.
But many times they come and don’t know how to turn an idea, an observation, into a business innovation. So your book comes at a very timely moment. When they get going, do you help them create scalability? A word I use often because, you know, there are 13 million women-owned businesses in the US. 10 million of them don’t make solopreneurs. 5 million of those don’t make more than $10,000 a year. And they’re more like side hustles, which is fine.
But there are a whole lot of solopreneurs, and I worry about the lack of scalability. Not being able to underwrite it with the right capital. Don’t know how to use a bank to finance it. Don’t use their credit cards with family and friends. I mean, there’s a whole huge market of folks who need to make an income in a better way, but need to think differently about what they’re doing and not simply celebrate the fact that they’re not inside a company, which is often what they say. “I didn’t like being there, so I’m doing this.” I say, “But you’re not in business. You’re just trying.” So, thoughts?
Julie Barlow: So one of the ideas that we speak of is that between somebody making $25,000 a year as a solopreneur and somebody making $250,000 a year, the thing you have to understand is that you don’t have to work ten times more. You make your choices in the function of things. In our case, writing that feeds other ways of making money. So for instance, we wrote a book about the French language and we turned that into speaking gigs on the French language, articles on the French language, a film script on the French language, a radio show on the French language. I mean, the book just keeps on giving us content that we use for other things. And we’re not being paid to sit and produce new content every day. That’s what we would do if we had a job, perhaps as a script writer at a company.
But we are using our content to make money for us. The best way to be a writer is to sit and wait for the royalty checks to come to the door. You know, of course we have to write, but all of the choices that we make, we make sure that they are not dead end choices because they are choices that are going to feed that or feed other books or enable us to produce books using a gig, doing something that will feed us with content for something else. I mean, that’s how we go from thinking like an employee to thinking like a business person.
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: I recently read a biography of Charles Dickens and was fascinated that he was one of the first authors in history to do what he called “work the copyright,” which meant that earning a living was not just about writing, it was to use his intellectual property to work for him, and for a lot less work. And as writers, we have the benefit of having intellectual property created the minute we finish something. The costly part of the intellectual property is developing it into research. But if you choose your ideas very well for the purpose of reusing them, then things become a lot easier. That’s just in the production side of it.
But if you negotiate well, you can actually improve your productivity without raising your rate just because you understand better what the client wants or because you negotiate better the ownership of what you produce for them, because you keep that ownership for yourself or because you get better terms. That’s just at the negotiating level. You can keep collecting. If you bill quickly, you collect quickly, and then you have less money on your credit card. There’s all sorts of things like this at all levels of what it is to run a business that are productive.
Andi Simon: And what you’re saying though, is a mindset. And I do think that mindset isn’t the narrow: I’m a freelance writer. It’s the broad: I’m in business to take ideas and in multiple channels begin to bring them to market because my purpose is to share French and I need to do it on all the different channels. And I need to do that in multiple different ways. And the content keeps repurposing itself.
I mean, people say to me, Did you sell a lot of books? I said, I brought in a lot of clients. I mean, you can bring in good clients. I was in Mexico three times off a book that someone found in a Hudson News in an airport, and got to give programs to CEOs down there three years in a row. Before the pandemic, I just loved the multiplier of the book.
And I just had a podcast earlier today of a guy who I gave the On the Brink book to. He took it on his vacation, came back and was quoting it for me. I mean, you can’t ask for much more than that. I love how what we do is designed not to be an end, but a beginning. And I do think it opens the door. And the idea is, how many different doors can it open and how do we get to where we’re really taking the message and helping spread it.
Julie Barlow: To do that you kind of have to be agile. I mean, the word is a little overused, but you do. You need to be watching what’s going on. You know, in the book, we encourage people who are starting out to be curious to contact their competitors, to sit down with people in their business and ask questions and figure things out. People can be very shy and a little bit locked into their own little universe. You can stay in front of your screen all the time, but it’s important to get out and understand what’s going on. And people are helpful. And they’re happy to have somebody, I’m happy for young writers to approach me and to ask for me to sit down and explain things to them.
When I don’t have time to do a contract. I’d love to be able to keep my client happy by sending them somebody else who can. And you know, that happens fairly frequently. And it’s sort of a win-win for everybody. But, you know, communication and being open to that and watching the industry change is really important.
One of our early methods was to resell articles because we write in both languages and we would resell them in different markets. And that changed when the internet came. And we started writing before the internet when that all changed. And then it was very hard to keep our copyright over certain things and resell things. But we found new ways to do that.
And one of them is translating and we don’t necessarily get paid for our copyright, but we need to translate it. So we get paid for that. We’re always looking to see where the soft spots are and how things are changing. And you always have to kind of be aware of what’s going on and not get stuck in a way of doing things. And that, again, is something very particular to being sort of an entrepreneur, entrepreneurial state of mind, as opposed to thinking like an employee and doing what you’re asked to do.
Andi Simon: You’re segueing into a topic that I always like to include, though, and you’ve been through many years of watching many different transitions and transformations, and often you pick up. I often talk about the future is here, we just haven’t quite distributed it widely. But you pick up little signs, and the little signs are the tip of the iceberg of where things are going. Are there some signs that you’re already beginning to watch happen and you’re saying, there’s something coming? I’m not quite sure what, but I’m really interested to see where and who, and I’m going to poke further, and anything you can share, because I do think the times are changing.
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: Well, in Canada we have this problem right now. The Canadian government wants to control better. Well, wants to ensure that big companies like Facebook and Google share their publicity market with traditional media, and they created a law, a Facebook Australia-style law. And Facebook reacted by blocking all Canadian content on Facebook. And Google is threatening that. So that is raising a lot of questions on the future of writing as a writer in Canada. It’s going to be a rocky year next year, I would say.
Julie Barlow: So artificial intelligence is a big one. Yeah, AI is affecting us. Again, maybe back to what Jean-Benoit said about purpose. We as sort of high-end writers are right now kind of safe from AI. It can’t really do what we’re doing. So we’re enjoying the benefits of it right now, which is transcribing automatic tools for transcribing interviews and translation tools that give us decent first drafts of translations and various different things, but all the writing community is a little on edge about what is going to do, because it’s getting better at generative artificial intelligence. We can’t afford to have our head in the sand.
Andi Simon: I fell in love with AI. I say that gently because I use it in different kinds of ways. It writes great poems for me. And if I want to give a granddaughter a poem about a situation, I give it three facts and outcomes a great poem. And I went, I can’t write that, but boy, that is a great poem, and I don’t even know who I would ask to write it.
But it is interesting to watch what we begin to use it for. I had a great big project and I said, Tell me, what are your thoughts, AI, about this project I’m working on? And it freshened up my thinking, not that I was necessarily going to use it, but as a solopreneur, it’s often difficult to find open colleagues with conversations that can make intelligent insights into things you’re thinking about. And so I’m finding all kinds of ways to make it my friend. And I say that because it’s how you feel about it as opposed to being angry at it.
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: You know, we use artificial intelligence a fair amount. We have an excellent character here called Antidote. It’s pure artificial intelligence. And all the intelligence software that is there doesn’t make a very good translation, but makes a good first draft. In fact, in Canada, where we translate a fair amount because we have two official languages, the number of people who are employed as translators has increased by 18% in the last seven years, when the labor force has increased by six. So it reduced the cost of entry to a lot of people who would not translate. And then they give it to a machine. They come out and they say, someone says, that’s not very good, but let’s hire someone who finishes the translation.
Andi Simon: What is Grammarly? I mean, this whole book, I put every one of them through it. We have 102 women and I gave everyone to Grammarly and they made the corrections and I sent it back and they approved it. And man, it was efficient. And there were limits to how much creativity was going to go into it. But it got me comfortable that they would sound professional and it was even far better than the proofreader of the publisher. And so it was fun to test. I just needed a third third party.
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: But one of the things about artificial intelligence is that it’s a misnomer. It’s an algorithm that processes a lot of information. And one of the problems for journalists, anyway, one of the issues with our AI is that, for example, ChatGPT is essentially a sociopath. It doesn’t tell you it doesn’t know what it doesn’t know. It makes up things and it doesn’t give you the source, which is contrary to any kind of ethics in journalism. And, I don’t think it threatens journalism. It will be a tool like glasses or even the word processor.
Andi Simon: You know, I’m in the schools, my daughter is a teacher. And she said back to me, I had to do a lesson plan for a student in special ed. So I went into ChatGPT and it came back and it was almost as good as I would have done. And in a minute I went, yeah, now use your time to teach the child and not write the lesson plan. You know, it’s a perfectly good way to get going. Nothing is perfect, and even our own lesson plans may not be perfect. We think they’re better than AI.
But I’m enjoying the transition to the next stage of data and insights coming from intelligent stuff in different ways. So it’ll be fun if we stay and make it happy, and then be wise and go back and check and make sure it’s correct. But even this stuff on Google, I’m never quite sure it’s correct either. You have to be knowledgeable enough to know. This has been such fun. I’m so glad that you’re on our podcast today, and if folks would like to buy the book, where could they buy it?
Julie Barlow: Amazon.com, Amazon.ca in Canada, Barnes and Noble. It should be available in any bookstore.
Jean-Benoit Nadeau: It’s widely distributed. Just make sure if you ever go, it probably won’t happen, but the Canadian edition has a little maple leaf at the top. If it doesn’t have that little maple leaf, it’s an American edition.
Andi Simon: The things that look great. Thank you so much. So it’s going solo and if you want to go solo, you’ve been with us today listening to Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoit Nadeau. I do, as we are trying to really help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can decide, how am I going to spend the next stage of my career doing a job, or do I want really interesting work? Am I going to be a creator of a whole new market space, or am I going to copy someone else and be another? And I do think it’s a time for really rethinking who you are and where you’re going and how to do it. So I want to thank you for coming. Thank you for coming today and speaking to our audience.
As you know, our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, just came out and it is doing gangbusters. And it too is on all the booksellers, Barnes and Noble and Amazon. It’s the stories of 102 women, and they are really interesting stories because the women have five wisdoms they want to share with you, and each of them has a different background, history, and their own journey. And it’s really quite fascinating.
The reviews are: "I wasn’t sure what I was going to find, but I went through the whole book and each of the women inspired me. So when you gave the book to me, man, this is a great book!" Who knew? And I said, I know. The whole idea is to share their wisdom with you so you can be inspired, you can aspire to greatness. You can begin to think about how other women have done it. One of my favorite quotes in there is, “Don’t believe everything you’re thinking.” And I said, I like that.
We preach, turn a page and change your life. I really think women in business are here to help you do just that. So on that note, I want to thank everyone for coming. Keep sending me your ideas on who we should have on, share the podcast and I wish you well. Bye bye now.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Ask yourself, how open are you to hearing an alternative point of view?
As I am always saying, the times are changing, fast. From global unrest to polarizing politics to toxic company cultures, everybody is having a challenging time talking to each other. To help us have better conversations so we can move forward together, I bring to you Rose Fass, a wonderful woman who will help us think about the conversations we’re having and how to turn them into powerful growth experiences. I interviewed Rose for this podcast in June of last year and what she said applies so strongly to our world today that I wanted to share her thoughts with you again. As she says in her book, The Chocolate Conversation, conversations become who we are, what we hear, and how we build relationships. A lot to learn here. Listen in and please share.
Watch and listen to our conversation here To connect with Rose
You can reach out to her on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, or her website, or you can email her at rose@fassforward.com.
Want to communicate better and more effectively? Check out these 3 podcasts:
- Monique Russell—Why Is It So Hard To Communicate?
- Imogene Drummond—How Can A Brilliant Artist Show You How To Communicate Effectively—Online?
- Nadia Bilchik—How To Master Communication In A Virtual World
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon. As you know, I’m a corporate anthropologist, and my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And for our podcast, I go looking for people who can help you do that as well. Our job is to get you off the brink. But unless you can see things through a fresh lens, begin to understand them in a new way, you get stuck, or stalled, or you know what you know, and your brain doesn’t really want to change anyhow, thank you very much, please go away. I’m happy where I am.
But today, the times are changing. We are in a world that is full of turmoil, everywhere, of all kinds. From COVID, to the Ukraine, to what’s going on in corporations, everybody is having a challenging time talking to each other. And so I brought you today a wonderful woman who’s going to help you think about the conversations that we’re having, and how to turn them into really growth experiences. The whole world is a conversation. We’re having a global conversation right now.
So today, we have Rose Fass here. Rose and I met fortunately, serendipitously at the Westchester Business Council, where she was presenting an absolutely brilliant presentation. And she’s going to share some of those insights with you. It was really so touching. I said, Wow, can I share her with our audience as well? Now, the Westchester Business Council is a marvelous organization. You have no idea how many people I’ve met there, it’s a really cool place. But each time I meet somebody and want to share them, they add some dimension to our day today.
Let me tell you a little bit about Rose and then she’ll tell you about her own journey. Rose knows, as she says, how to use her unique gift to take a mess and quickly put it in place with effective steps to teach desired outcomes. Interesting, isn’t it. So she loves to change as I do, and like me, is a culture change expert. She’s a natural facilitator who connects with all types of people at all levels of an organization, from the C-suite to the people closest to the work. She has over 45 years of experience in technology and consumer-based industries. During her career, Rose has opened businesses in the United States, has been a general manager with full P&L responsibility and led major corporate transformations. She was a chief transformation officer at Xerox and she’s going to tell you a lot about some of her learnings and why at this point she’s ready to help others do all kinds of transformation. These times, they are a-changing as Bob Dylan told us in the 60s. Rose, thank you for being with me today.
Rose Fass: Thank you, thank you so much. And it’s interesting that whenever I hear my bio, I have to smile a little because I go back to being this little kid in a very small neighborhood with a group of young Italian girls like myself just walking around and trying to figure out what it was that we were going to do when we grew up. So the interesting part about all of this is, I run a company right now called fassforward Consulting Group. And it’s probably the culmination of everything I ever did at Xerox. Later I went to Gartner with the now CEO of ServiceNow, Bill McDermott, and then met my colleague and partner there, Gavin McMahon, and we started this about 21 years ago. And I still feel like I’m a student of the subject that I talked about. So I want to bring myself into the room as little Rose, so you know who I am. Then we can decide whether any of us are a big piece of stuff, or we all buy into this world with our brilliance and our muddy shoes.
So I used to live in East Utica, New York. That’s where I was born, on Ruptor Street, and we had a four-room cold water flat that my dad worked very hard on, kind of getting it to where we would have hot water or mom wouldn’t have to boil it on top of the stove. Believe it or not, I’m 72 years old and I can actually think back to those days very fondly. But my claim to fame was I lived down the street from Annette Funicello. All of you young women, she was on the Mouseketeers and we were just all a bunch of Italian girls who could dance and sing and we were all cute. And we just could not understand why Annette got discovered by Walt Disney and ended up in Hollywood and we were left in East Utica. So for many, many days, I walked with a group of Italian girls home, complaining, whining, saying bad things and being green with jealousy.
I remember this one day, it was unusual because it was early spring, and if you know anything about upstate New York winters, they’re horrible. But the weather was nice and I saw my dad picking dandelions out on the front lawn. I went up to him very quietly, because I just wanted to scoot by. My father was a World War II Marine, a published poet and conversant in all the Romance languages, so he was a very interesting guy. I remember walking by and him saying, “Rose,” and I halted. I turned around, this little nine-year-old looking at him, and he said, “What do you see?” And he held up the dandelion. And I thought, Oh, God, I don’t want to do this. This philosopher, I don’t want to do this. And I said, “I don’t know Dad, I see a dandelion.” And he said, “Yes, darling, but I want you to look wider. I want you to look deeper. I want you to look beyond just the dandelion.” And he looked at me, and I said, “I don’t know Dad, what do you see?”
I think at that point, I had learned how to be very good at rhetorical responses, especially when I didn’t have an idea of what to say. I was so down in the dumps that I just didn’t have the energy to get into it. I usually did, because I think for my dad I was the one that appreciated poetry and philosophy. So he looked at me and he said, “Darling, I see the end of a long winter. I see the dawning of a new season. I see lovers walking hand in hand exchanging silence. I see children picking these out of the lawns and handing them to their moms to put them in juice glasses on the sills as a means of saying I love you.” And I looked at him. And I said, “You see a lot, Dad.” And he said, “Rose, soon this dandelion, this beautiful expression of spring is going to become a weed, and we like many homeowners are going to go to the nurseries and we’re going to get the stuff that will take it out of the lawn because we want to rid ourselves of this one beautiful expression of spring that’s now an ugly reminder of cleaning up the yard.”
And I looked at him. He said, “Because soon honey, the beautiful flowers are going to come along, the irises, the tulips, and yes, even the roses. But the beauty of the dandelion is not in its first expression of spring, it’s in the root, because it’s resilient. And all of us know that no matter how much we hack at them next year, they come back double fold. We named you Rose, but roses are fragile. In your heart, you need to be a dandelion.” That is my signature story.
I remember that day of standing there on that little patch of lawn and crying in the arms of the Marine and in the arms of the poet. And for whatever reason, letting it all out and feeling like I may be enough. I didn’t think I was but maybe I’m enough. And I think we women struggle with that. And so for the rest of my journey, I have reminded myself that we get kicked around, and we get hacked at. And we just have to be resilient. And so today, I think that’s probably more true than ever. And it has held me together for many, many years. Andi, so I want you know who I really am, the little rose, the woman who became who she is today, and that I am a combination of all of those beautiful moments when you learn through pain.
Andi Simon: Now, by saying that, I guess I visualized that scene with your father was exhilarating, maybe painful. But he was imparting to you wisdom that’s really hard to come by otherwise. Who else would you trust to listen to that way? So you may have cried but I have a hunch he had a long term impact on the way you see the world. It’s all of the implications and the meaning that it has. Am I right?
Rose Fass: The Marine, unlike the philosopher, said, One rule for my two brothers and me was to be up by 0600, ready for company. Every day of my life, I am out of bed by six o’clock and I get dressed no matter where I’m going. My hair is combed. I’ve showered and am presentable and so are my brothers. And in his mind, it was the “ready for company” meant a lot of things. Were you ready to be gracious? Were you ready to be approachable? Were you ready to be aware, conscious, willing to help? All those things culminated in that one little statement: be up at 0600 and ready for company. And I’ve kind of never forgotten that. Today, with people working remotely, I noticed they get on the camera, and oftentimes, they’ll take the camera off because they’re not camera ready or they’re even in sweat pants, and they’re looking draggy. And when you don’t feel good about yourself, it’s hard to feel good about life. Yes, and we’re living in a time when I think more than ever we have to bring our best selves to whatever we’re doing. Because it’s going to get harder before it gets easier. I really believe that.
Andi Simon: You’re making the important point about our best selves. And I want you to talk a little bit about the career that you had because we could stay on your lessons learned in your youth a lot. But the best self is a very interesting concept. We are working with a lot of women as coaches, and they are successful, but not happy. They have a position or are partner in a firm. They’ve got degrees, are financially successful and they’re asking, Isn’t there more? We talk a lot about who am I? What’s my purpose? What’s my best self? So a little bit more about as you got into your career, you began to carve out an area around transformation. Sounds like your father became living in these companies a little bit further.
Rose Fass: By the way, Andi, you talk about youth. I often relate to men in the work that I do. I tell them there’s no more important person in a young woman’s life than their father. Mom plays a role but Father gives them the sense of validation and approval of who they are as women. And I think that’s critical, just as mothers help their sons become more approachable and more yin and yang.
So for me, my early career after I got out of Boston University, I started at Saks Fifth Avenue in an executive training program, and I had two mentors. I had Jan Edelstein, God rest her soul. She was very gypsy-ish, wore all these crazy skirts and crazy glasses and lots of bangles. But knew Judith Leiber, Bottega, every possible fashion brand you can think of in accessories. I was her assistant and I was also assistant to the blouse buyer, who was Miss Janet. And I’m not kidding. Little bow, little glasses like a librarian, always in the black pencil skirt, white blouse, buttoned to the teeth. They could not have been more different. Jan told me to have to learn how to be creative and every bit of data and information you need to make good sound decisions. But let that be one data point that I want you to go with your gut when you feel you know how your experience is and how something speaks to you.
Then I went up to Judith and she taught me the process. And it was so procedural. I remember taking an inventory where every single blouse had to be counted. And in those days, these departments were massive. And I walked around and I was spinning. And I was trying to take a few little shortcuts. And she said to me, “Miss Maysa?” (my maiden name) And I said, “Yes”. She said, “You are not to take shortcuts. You will one day take shortcuts but that will be after you learn the long way home, and I’m going to teach you the long way home.”
The unique part about this was that Jan and Judith were really good friends. They could not have been more different. But they understood each other in their own way. And neither of them really took shortcuts. Most of them understood what it meant to take a long way home. Years later, working with young people and trying to get them to understand that there are steps to getting to an outcome that doesn’t just happen because you wish it so, I would say to them, “You are taking shortcuts. You can’t do that either. You learn the long way home.” And here’s the long way. It’s like doing math in classes; you do the long version, and then you can get to the quick answer. So for me, my whole career has been pretty much about working in data areas that required both my gut and my ability to be disciplined.
Andi Simon: Very interesting. I grew up in the retail business. I was supposed to take over our family firm. A very big store in Manhattan, a department store in the old family model. And I was being trained to take it over. As I’m listening to you, I vividly remember trips to the market with my grandmother and my mother to go buy. I remember saying to my grandmother, “How do you know what to buy?” She said, “Well, Andrea,” (I remember her voice so well) “1/3 will sell full price, 1/3 will sell on sale, and 1/3 will walk out the door. Now if we’re good, we’ll have enough money coming out of that to pay bills and do it again.” And that’s my vivid memory, being taught that. I remember putting blouses on the hangers. You were counting the blouses. I was putting them on the hangers with Leo in the basement.
Rose Fass: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We did it all. I remember Judy Garland coming in to buy a Rosanna sweater. Oh, no, I’m really dating myself here. But Rosanna sweaters were weaved in such a way that it was a staple in every woman’s closet. And in those days, believe it or not, women wanted to be a size 12. They wanted to be curvy, and terrific. So she came in emaciated. And she insisted on the size 12 sweater and I thought, “You need a size 6.” We didn’t have 2s and 4s and zeros. Six was the smallest size back then. So ladies, we actually did get to eat. She insisted. And then she called in my department manager and she said, “I want to talk to her boss.” And I’m like, Oh my God. And the whole thing was, you give her what she wants. She’s a size 12 and in her mind she’s that size. Well, later, I got a call from upstairs. They said, “Wrap all of Ms. Garland’s things up and we’ll send them over to the hotel.” And that was the end of the conversation.
And I learned that being technically right wasn’t necessarily socially effective. When I later put together the technical, social and political spheres, which are a big part of the book that I’ve written, called The Chocolate Conversation, and the book I’m writing now, The Leadership Conversation, making bold changes one conversation at a time. We live in this technically right space where we have the facts, we know what we’re doing, we’re going to say it the way we’re going to say it, but sometimes we have to socially adjust to what a person is capable of experiencing in that moment. And getting somebody there by connecting with them, not through facts and through your technical expertise, but through that human connection, and then ultimately positioning it in a way that they feel like they came out of this a winner.
Andi Simon: Being an anthropologist, my affection is with understanding women and people. We really intuitively watch what goes on and observe and listen. People can’t really tell you what they’re doing, to your point. And when you look at data that has no meaning out of context, I still hear my anthro 101 professor saying to me, There is no data that does not explain, does not exist out of context. Their meaning is set into the context. But the other thing that we’ve learned is that people decide with the heart, the gut, the eyes, and then the data in the brain begins to operate. And that means we have to experience each other. We’ve got to feel each other. We really don’t know what it means. The reason I love my podcast to be video or audio is people see differently. But as you’re thinking about it, the first book and the second book you’re writing now are all about conversations. They are about your passion. Same thing.
Rose Fass: I think for me, Andi, you put it perfectly. One of my dearest friends that I got to know when I first started at Xerox, then went to Palo Alto Research and then later came with her to Gartner and that my early days at fassforward, was an anthropologist, and I just loved Susan because she always said that to me. She said, Rose, there’s their side, this side and somewhere in there there’s the truth. And then there’s the person who’s observing the truth.
We had a gig with Estée Lauder where they wanted to know what was important to women around mascara. And Susan just sat on trains and watched people put it on. And I was like, Oh my God. And she goes, Well, what’s important to you? I said, Well, at night, when I want to give myself a refresh, you have to take it all off because it clumps when you put it all back on again. And later, they came out with a conditioner that you could literally put over a mascara and then put it on and we were part of that pattern. All in the conversations with women about what was important conversations.
For me, the first and the most important one is the one you have with yourself. Yes. What’s that conversation that’s going on in your head? What’s your head telling you? What have you done that maybe was right or wrong? So I’m going to take a little moment here. I have a colleague that works for me here, Liz works with me. And I adore her and she happens to live nearby. She put her car in park and realized she had forgotten two presents in the house. She left the dog in the car, her handbag, and just quickly, 30 seconds, ran to the apartment, grabbed this stuff, got back and the handbag was gone. And she beat herself up about that for three straight days in a row. “But I only left for 30 seconds.” “But I only did”…is what we do to ourselves. We beat ourselves up over the mistakes that we made. And we don’t celebrate the fact that we’ve learned something.
You’re parked by a bus stop, someone’s riding a bus, so they’re not doing as well as maybe you are in the car. They get out. They see an open door, they grab a handbag because it’s something to get them by for whatever period of time. And whatever karma was involved in what you owed that individual from some other life, maybe it got taken care of at that moment. And no mistake, let’s not worry about it. Let’s not get ourselves all worked up. Yes, it’s disturbing but at the end of the day, we are going to make mistakes. Our victories will keep us buoyant in life, but our mistakes are what are going to teach us in life. I really believe that.
Andi Simon: Oh, I agree. I agree. Yeah, I’d like to add to that, that Liz had a damaged self. One of the things that we often say is, flip it around and begin to express. I think what you’re saying is gratitude, what do we do, because it changes the whole, and we manage our minds, the mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. When you understand that you can be unhappy, or you can have a lesson learned, I’m grateful she showed me, I will never do that again. Right. I learned that the little time I took was really unnecessary to do it that way. I mean, all the things that turn negative lemons into lemonade, right out of that building that story. It’s a little like your dad with his dandelion, and your answer, It’s a dandelion, and he said, Push, go further. And so to your point, that self care that we need, and that self awareness comes from taking every experience and turning into something else.
Rose Fass: Because nobody’s perfect out there. I don’t trust perfect people. I learned that in my first book. I think we’re all a little messy. I kind of feel this way very strongly. I look at Golda Meir, and I think of what she went through when she became Prime Minister. And it was messy. But what an incredible character, right? Gandhi was messy. A lot of these incredible leaders that we knew about. Winston Churchill never got out of bed sober. Very messy guy. But leadership is messy. And if you are willing to take that on, you can obviously do something uniquely different in the world. I look at Steven Jobs as one of the great leaders of our time in innovation, not so much in leadership, but in innovation. And at the end of his life, he finally came to grips with the fact that I’ve lived this incredible life, but it’s coming to a much shorter halt than I had anticipated. And yet he was very messy.
What I say to people in management is, it’s something you can plan for. It’s the management of work, it’s the management of plans. It’s all about the stuff that we get to look ahead and do but leadership happens in the moment. It happens when Rosa Parks gives up her seat on the bus. It happens when, at the worst moment in your life, you are going to have to have the courage to do something that you otherwise would be terrified to do. And yet you do it. That’s leadership in the moment. We don’t get to plan for that. And if we can accept the fact, as I said earlier, that we come into this world with our brilliance and our muddy shoes, and that life is messy, that we can’t expect perfection, and we can’t hold ourselves accountable to perfection, then we can do what we need to do as all individuals and just progress, one conversation at a time.
And I do believe we’re in a conversation right now. And we have had very different backgrounds, and yet some very common ground, both started our careers in retail. You went on to become an anthropologist. I got to work with one for a long time that I thoroughly enjoyed. I’ve taken my business career to heights I never dreamed I would be at. And I have the opportunity to work with C-level executives. And when they ask me how I think I know or why it is what I’m saying, I go, It’s easy. I’m 72. I’m at least 20 years older than you and I made every damn mistake that I could possibly make up to this point. And I’m still making them. So I’m saving you the benefit of that.
And in the book, it’s a book of stories. It’s a book of stories about different leaders, different experiences, my journey as a young woman to my business career, and all the different ways in which we sabotage what we are capable of. That phrase that came out very popular a few years back: Don’t go there. I absolutely hated it, Andi. I’d be like, I’m packed and ready to go. I don’t want someone to tell me, Don’t go there. That means this conversation isn’t safe, let’s not have it. The conversation is as safe as you choose to make it if you can have a civil discourse. And so I have a chapter in the first book, “Go there. Find a way to go there.”
So many times when you bring up the fact that women are unhappy in their current roles is because they have not expressed what they’re distressed about. It’s like Cassandra, Greek tragedy, the voice is trying to come out. And it’s not. And we have to make ourselves known. And I don’t mean in an alfa, overly feministic way, but to be real, to come out and say, look, this isn’t working for me. I need other things. And today, these people in big positions within corporations, whether they’re women or men, are willing to listen. They don’t want the erosion of their diverse employees. They don’t want that. They want you to stay. So if ever there’s a time to express yourself, using the right way to speak.
Andi Simon: So let’s stay on that. This is a new book that Rose is working on for our listeners. She has a first book. Did you call it The Chocolate Conversation?
Rose Fass: Yes, The Chocolate Conversation.
Andi Simon: Yes, I do love chocolate. But The Chocolate Conversation has now led to a whole new book. What we’re talking about is conversation. All of life is conversation. Yes, Lazer, the late organizational anthropologist, wrote great stuff about conversational intelligence and the power of we. And what we’ve learned from the neurosciences is that when you say in a conversation, the neurosciences, the brain goes, Ooh, run away. The amygdala hijacks it, it flees it, the cortisol said, This is going to be painful. Don’t hang around, off you go. But when you say, We, the we brings out all kinds of good oxytocin or wonderful hormones that say, Oh, let’s bond. This is the love that we feel. You, Rose, tell us about the book you’re writing.
Rose Fass: Well, it’s a book of conversations. It’s a book of conversations with myself with others. I think what you said earlier, I really care that somebody gets heard and gets acknowledged. I remember facilitating a very large group of different cultural people from Latin America, Portugal. People that were there from France. And we had these earphones on, because they were getting translated into English. And at the same time, we were facilitating all these different languages. There was this one little Portugese guy and he stood up and he was trying to explain something to his boss. And it was completely misinterpreted.
One of the things that I call the chocolate conversation is just talking, right?, and the boss got very annoyed, and I said, Stop for a minute. And I kind of took off my earphones and I said, Can you just translate for me? Yes. And I said, this is what I think I heard you say, and he was, Si, si, si. And I said to him, And so I translated and took the whole thing, and I brought it back. And in that moment, there was such a relief. And I thought to myself, I teared up, because in my heart of hearts, the worst thing in the world is when you’re standing there trying to express yourself in another language even, and someone is just not getting what you’re saying. And completely misinterpreting, because we spend more time on our own point of view than trying to understand what it is that you’re saying.
So I think today, in business, we’ve got to start listening to people at the front of the business, the ones that are closest to the customers, it doesn’t matter what age someone is, there’s truth that is worth listening to. I feel that this is the last value added space right now because our institutions have failed us. People are looking at journalism, and they’re saying, Where is it? Where is the unbiased truth? We’re getting nothing but opinion and vitriol conversations. The public stage has become a boxing ring. Everybody is walking around that whole term of psychological safety. When I hear it, I think, Oh, my God, it sounds so clinical. What it really means is, Can I be comfortable here? Can I be in my own skin? Can I wake up in the morning and feel like it’s going to be okay? And I think we owe that to each other.
I think we need to become more human. We need to provide that peace of mind to our children, to our friends, to our family as much as we can. And we need to find a spiritual essence in all of us. And this has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with who are we, why are we here? It’s not just about the momentary little things that we go through. It’s really bigger than that. And so my books are about how do you have conversations that are inclusive, that shift people’s points of view from a worldview they’re stuck in, establish new standards, a lie, some concerns.
The Chocolate Conversation is about worldviews, standards and concerns. The new book is about being bold with your conversation, saying what you mean, not what you think people want to hear but doing it in a way that you can get your point across in a loving and caring and compassionate way such that people feel touched.
You saw me at the Westchester Business Council. I showed that wonderful little film of Mary Jackson, NASA engineer. And those of you who have seen Hidden Figures know what I’m talking about in the film. This was a woman who needed to go to a school to get an engineering degree so she could become a NASA engineer. She’s brilliant. But she was a woman of color. Walking in at a time when the level of bias against people of color was so serious. And if she had gone up against that judge with hatred, resentment, vitriol, about something that was totally unfair, she would have been right. But she never would have been effective. But she went to that judge with a different heart, and she found common ground. You’ve been first in a lot of places. I need to be first going to that school, we can have this in common. And I shared that at the Business Council because that to me, was the combination of one of the better conversations I’ve been exposed to.
Andi Simon: You have a passion and a purpose. You really do want to see change happen, and how we get along, how we listen to each other, how we learn from each other. And there’s something more here in your life journey that really is transformational. You see that it’s a time where we have to not simply accept the way we are but begin to change the way we go. I’m anxious to hear if you have any message in your little toolkit here to share or some ideas about how we can begin to multiply. A podcast is a podcast, but my whole purpose in life is to multiply it so that people take it and share it. And in the process, learn something they can actually do with it.
Rose Fass: So I think one of the things that’s helped me a lot, and I can’t take credit for it, was given to me by a wonderful professor at MIT that I happen to be in touch with. When you want to have a conversation, particularly one that may have a little conflict associated with it, have the meta conversation, the conversation about the conversation, get permission to have it. That was very helpful to me, because I would be, Are you open to an alternative point of view? And yes, even if it’s going to be very different from the one that you have. Yes. Do you mean it? Yes, I mean, okay, I’m going to take a risk here, and say something that really flies in the face of your experience, your lived experience, and what you’ve just shared with me, and I just want you to consider it. I don’t want you to agree with me, I just want you to consider it. And that’s helped me a lot to be able to have that kind of conversation. And I’ll do it often with a CEO. And they’re like, “Okay,” and they take a breath.
I think also, when I’m getting feedback, I don’t know about you, Andi, but I still lose, if it’s not going to be good. You know, I still have that. And what I’ve learned from my years here is to stop feeling that I’m going to feel it initially no matter what I do, but to step back from it and say, this is just a data point. Not defining my entire persona. It’s not defining my past, my future, my present. It’s a data point. Let me take it in. Let me think about it. Let me try to get myself back centered. I think staying in the present, very important, stays in the conversation you’re having, not the one you’re tying yourself to. And you know, having a conversation is not waiting for your time to speak.
Andi Simon: Well, these are important points. And as the listener is taking their notes, as I know you often do, there’s some lessons here about navigating interpersonal relationships, having a permission conversation before you have the conversation levels the playing field. It’s not adversarial, it’s communication. It’s sharing, it’s a we, in a sense, it’s that what Glaser spoke about, which opens your mind up to something I’m going to enjoy as opposed to flee in some fashion. The second thing is that as you’re going through this, I learned a long time ago to say something like, It sounds like you are upset about something. And if I put it into their zone, it becomes a conversation of listening, as opposed to having a point of view about it. And I would say to my staff, I was an EVP of a bank, and I had lots of folks, and I would learn that and practice it because I didn’t want to jump to any conclusions. It was easy to become a command and control leader, but I was very engaging. And I said, Sounds like you’re having some difficulty with your manager? No, I see. Well, it sounds like you’re unhappy with your job.
I mean, you can really watch the responses come back as long as I kept it in their zone, as opposed to trying to take charge of it. And then my third point is that I often ask people, Yur feedback point is really important. I teach a Leadership Academy. And we teach feedback. Because every conversation is feedback. It’s in the feedback loop. And I say to people, If you really want to get the right feedback, say to somebody, What’s one thing you would like me to do differently? You’d be amazed at how interesting that goes.
Rose Fass: Yes. Great question. Wonderful question. And most people are afraid to ask it. And afraid to hear, afraid to ask it and they’re afraid to because they’re afraid to hear it. Very often, and you may have found this too Andi, if you say to someone, I sense that you’re upset about something, they might feel like, Oh, are you threatening me? But it’s more along the line of just sort of stepping back from it and saying, you know, we all have concerns. Yeah, I know I have them. What might be one of your concerns? What are you feeling right now? What do you like about what you do? And what are the things that you could change if you had a magic wand? And you could just change this one thing? What might that be? Just giving people a chance to step outside of themselves and de-personalize a little. Sometimes if we can step out of ourselves.
This is another anthropological method that Susan taught me: stand outside of yourself, just observe it. And it was a hard thing to learn to do. But it’s an extraordinarily freeing. When you can sort of step outside, say what’s really bothering me. Why am I so stressed about this? And we’re going to be stressed, these are stressful times. I really felt bad about that poor tennis player, devoted to his healthy body, he’s not anti-vax. He’s come right out and said it, I’m not anti-vaccinating, I just don’t want to put any foreign things into my body. Now, whatever side of the argument you’re on, the newscasters kept trying to pin him as an anti-vax. And he’s the sweetest guy. And there’s a sweetness about him. And I said, You know, he’s probably a health nut. He believes in alternative medication. Have we tried to understand his point of view? Are we just throwing this out at him that he’s now part of the anti-vax movement now?
Andi Simon: But Rose, we have to wrap up, as much fun as we are having. It’s really an honor and a privilege. We have a brilliant woman, Rose Fass. I want her to give you one or two things she doesn’t want you to forget because we often remember the ending more than the beginning. Although her dandelion story is one that you’re gonna hold on to. Some things Rose you want to leave with us.
Rose Fass: Remember that everybody, everybody piles in with their brilliance and their muddy shoes. Take that away, nobody’s perfect. That’s something I want you to take away. The second thing is, remember the conversation you’re having with yourself. That’s the single most important conversation because that’s the one that’s going to shape the conversations you have with others. And when you do have a conversation with someone else, think about the context. You’re in the social connection you need to make, how things need to be positioned. And think about having the conversation about the conversation before you jump right in. That would be the three things that I would say. And my dandelions story is just if you’re another we’d be happy to have you in the field.
Andi Simon: This has been such fun. So we have had Rose Fass here. If they want to reach you, where can they do that?
Rose Fass: They can do it at hello@fastforward.com. And I’m on LinkedIn, Rose Fass.
Andi Simon: Yes, everybody’s on LinkedIn. Thank you LinkedIn, it’s a great place to find the world. Now, for my listeners. Thank you for coming. As always, our audience is wonderful. Rose has given you some great insights today about all kinds of things: not only growing up, but also really becoming who we are, listening to our conversations about who we are, and also finding a path to where we find purpose and passion. It comes down to conversations. All conversations are there. That’s how we survive. Then the question is, who are we having conversations with and what are we listening to, and listening has become real important.
Thank you for coming to our podcast. As you know, we’re ranked in the top 5% of global podcasts, which is truly an honor and a privilege. It’s wonderful. And I bring on guests who I think have ideas they want to share with you. My books are available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local bookseller. My Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, Rose could have been in there. And I have the stories of 11 women who have smashed the myths. They didn’t listen to people who said, Oh, you shouldn’t, and you can’t and no, we don’t, because they said, Of course we can. And they are really great role models for other women. And On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is about how a little anthropology can help your business grow. And as you know, we spend a lot of time consulting with clients and helping them see, feel and think in new ways like you.
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Learn how to get treated the way you want, at work and in life
Michele Bailey, a remarkable woman and my podcast guest in June of last year, is on a quest: to help her clients make gratitude integral to the way business is done. Little wonder that her book, The Currency of Gratitude, focuses on the power of gratitude. As Michele tells us, gratitude is also about creating a healthy culture at work so people feel connected and support each other. As a culture change expert, this is right up my alley, which is why I wanted to bring you Michele’s insights again. Listen, learn, and feel free to share via social media or forward to a friend.
Watch and listen to our conversation here The power of gratitude can be life-changing A true trailblazer, Michele Bailey was a driving force in bringing the first Women Presidents’ Organization (WPO) chapter to Canada and currently sits on the WPO board as its international representative. She also is committed to supporting entrepreneurs in the underrepresented diverse and inclusion fields. Want to connect with Michele? Reach out on Linkedin, Twitter, Facebook and either of her websites: My Big Idea or Blazing.
Need more gratitude in your life and your business? Start here: * Blog: Time to Add Gratitude to Your Life—And Your Company’s Culture * Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times * Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Thanks for joining us today. My job, as you know, is to be your host and your guide. What I want to do is get you off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways so that you can change. So I have with me today a wonderful woman, Michele Bailey from Canada. Michele and I met through the Women Business Collaborative, an organization we’re both extremely involved with and very fond of, all of which is there to help women become the best that they can be. What I’d like to do today, though, is let Michele tell you a little bit about herself after I introduce her to all of you because her bio is beautiful. And I don’t want her to shortchange you because it’s really exciting.
She’s the founder of The Blazing Crew which is a brand and culture agency born out of her strategy-first approach to business. She has a flair for sharing stories, and a desire to enhance employee wellness while pursuing business goals. This is sort of interesting because as you listen to her today, you’ll know that business isn’t about selling things or making things, it’s about people things. And the wellness and well-being of your people and their belonging is not to be underestimated. It is the differentiator that can take you and separate you from the rest. And she’s shaking her head for those who are listening. And she’s saying yes.
Her advertising agency, Blazing, is turning branding inside out. Her My Big Idea and Employee Mentoring and Wellness Program is designed to propel individuals forward in their quest for personal and professional success. My Big Idea is a really cool one so it’s delivered virtually or in person. And it’s really uniquely designed for business owners, leaders and employees to address the challenges of work and personal life. And we’ll talk today about that work-life balance, who is in the pursuit of what I’ve never understood.
I’m an anthropologist, and I look at our society, and I can’t quite figure out why life and work are different. So work life and life work. I mean, this is all kind of a blend of being a professional. Since the time my kids were three weeks old, I knew that there was a blend, it wasn’t either or, there was together. It was who we were. So the difference and the balancing is a challenge, even for the guys.
Michele is on a quest to get her clients to take one important step further, to make true gratitude integral to the way business is done. True gratitude, as you’re listening or watching, we’re going to talk a lot about it because gratitude is not inconsequential, it is essential to our well-being. So her passion for gratitude is contagious. And I think you’re going to capture that. She has a new book out, and I’m so delighted to share it with you. It’s called The Currency of Gratitude and was just published. And it offers a moving and straightforward guide to enabling business growth using gratitude as your currency, and you’re gonna say, But I think gratitude is not inconsequential.
Now Michele will tell you, she’s a biracial woman and has faced her share of challenges. Her boundless energy and vision have earned her international recognition as a champion of women in business. She’s a driving force bringing the first Women Presidents Organization chapter, the WPO, to Canada, and she sits on the WPO board as its international representative. I think you know enough about Michele to know that you want to listen carefully, and enjoy our time together. I shall thank you for joining me today.
Michele Bailey: Andi, I’m so delighted to be here.
Andi Simon: Well tell the listener who is Michele because you’ve had a journey. I can’t capture it reading your bio as much as I have enjoyed it. So give us a little bit about your background.
Michele Bailey: Thank you, Andi. First of all, I want to start by saying that I have lived in multiple states in different countries my whole life. It wasn’t until I turned 18 that I landed in Canada with going to school and I have stayed here. So I’m a dual citizen. I’m an American, as well as a Canadian. I have lived in New Hampshire, Vermont, New York City, Michigan, and the island of Haiti. So I have quite a varied background. And I’ve experienced many cultures which have allowed me to be the woman I am today.
And through this all, Andi, we’re talking about gratitude. I have to tell you, because I never stayed anywhere long, it was really hard to make friends because people knew that I’d be moving and they didn’t want to waste time on people that aren’t going to be hanging around. So at an early age, I made gratitude my core. I learned to embrace each and every relationship that was put in front of me, whether it be for a season or a lifetime, because people mean everything to me. This fast forwards us to being in Toronto today. So to take a step back, I have an agency called Blazing. You might not know who we are, but you will certainly have heard of the clients that we have done work for the last 27 years. And to be a woman in this industry for that long is really almost unheard of because it’s a dog-eat-dog world. It’s a burn-and-churn business. People usually don’t last longer than 18 or 24 months because you burn them out. However, Blazing has stood the test of time. And my average tenured employee is 11 years.
Andi Simon: Wow. In today’s world, that is amazing.
Michele Bailey: And Andi, that is actually why people kept saying to me, how do you hold on to people in an industry that is just so burn-and-churn for the length of time that you do. And I will tell you, it’s a few things. It’s about creating an awesome culture at work. So people feel connected. They want to love and they watch each other’s backs. That’s the first and most important thing.
It’s also about appreciating and recognizing the contributions they bring, both as team members and as individuals, also very important. So I didn’t know that Blazing was so special until people started saying to me, You don’t lose your people. And all the people you get are through word of mouth. You don’t have to use headhunters or you don’t have to use hiring people. I said, No, it’s all word of mouth. So that’s what I was doing at Blazing. When people were asking me what I do differently, I thought, I do something differently than most people I know. I do things like setting up my goals, both personally and professionally every year. I am very clear with what I need to do, as a business owner, as a leader, as a mother, and as a friend. So what I do is, I actually broke down my life into nine categories. And this is what led to the evolution and creation of My Big Idea.
My Big Idea helps people come up with their big idea. You can have work-life integration and blend. So Andi, I start every year by sitting down and answering 13 questions under reflection. What worked and what didn’t work this past year. And because it’s my homework for myself, I’m dead honest. Because if I’m not dead honest, I can’t change, improve, or discard things that haven’t been working for me. So I talk about things like, what was my biggest challenge? What was my biggest success? Who inspired me? And why? What do I need to let go of? Who do I need to let go of? Who do I need to allow in my life? Questions like that.
So I start with reflection, then I go into personal goals. And I again have 10 questions I’m asking myself, and then I have a section in my workbook where I have to list at least one, but not more than three, personal goals. And it has to be about me, not my kids, not my family, it’s got to be about me. I do the same for professional goals. I ask myself what I want to accomplish this year. Then I go into health and wellness goals. I go into finance and wealth goals. Then I go into relationship goals.
Andi, when I created relationship goals, I never knew how impactful this would be. I actually asked people to answer the questions on relationship goals but did not set a goal. I need you to do an exercise called creating your support network. And in this exercise, I have people with professional careers, name a mentor or mentee, friends, family, and emotional support. I have a whole little grid and I start putting people’s names in there. And then I look at that grid and I go through it. I have a little marker with two different colored markers, and I mark who gives me positive energy, who gives me negative energy and whose energy is neutral. So once I’ve identified and looked at my support network, then I go back and set my relationship goal for the year. And sometimes it gets rid of or creates strict boundaries around people who don’t always want or wish the best for me. It’s about keeping it real.
Then I go into my refueling section. What do I need to do for myself to be the best version of me for me and everyone around me? And then I always end with my gratitude goals. I have a list and I just write people’s names down. I write down the relationship to me, and what I want to thank them for. And in those relationships, aside from the gratitude goals, what I do is, I have six questions that if I answer them honestly, to the person I want to thank, I will change my relationship with them. The questions go something like this: You came into my life…, you bring me joy by…, you inspire me because…, I hope to add to our journey together…, and I want to thank you for….
I put those down, and then answer them in under five minutes. And that has impacted my relationships, both personally and professionally, like nothing else I’ve ever experienced. So Andi, this is why I now have The Currency of Gratitude, my book, by ForbesBooks. ForbesBooks came to me and they said, We hear you’ve got a different spin on gratitude. And I said, I do. And I said, please understand that I think gratitude journals are so important. And I think looking at each day, and seeing the three things you need to be most grateful for, is also very important. But I’m on a quest to teach people that if you push gratitude outside of yourself, you will have much bigger, better, stronger and sticky relationships with people in your life. So ForbesBooks said, Could you write a book about 50,000 words? I said, No, I could write in 30,000 words on how gratitude has changed my life and I hope to teach other people how gratitude can change your life.
Andi Simon: So this is a journey you’ve been on. I’m fascinated with each step along the way. And as you’re thinking about it, I’m just curious whether this has come from any kind of catalytic moment, aha moment. You know, when we were talking in advance, I said, The pressure to write a book comes from all kinds of places. Was there a particular thing that became other than ForbesBooks coming to you and saying, Would you write a book?
Michele Bailey: And I didn’t think it was time to tell the story. And I didn’t even understand that gratitude was my brand. It was my Managing Partner, Eric Marshall, who showed me that gratitude was my brand. And it started because someone came and said, We want you to open a women’s conference up in Toronto. There’ll be hundreds of women there. We want you on stage to kick it off by talking about spending five minutes talking about a passion project, something you’re passionate about. We want the audience to feel your passion.
So I went to the office and I said to Eric, I’m going to kick off this conference. And I’m going to talk about work-life blend and integration through My Big Idea and how if you focus on those nine areas of your life, you will get clearer, and you will have a blend that works for you. So he looked at me and said, You’re going to talk about My Big Idea. Yeah, that’s your five minute passion. I said, absolutely. He said, I don’t think so. I looked him and said, You don’t think so? He said, Passion is what makes you come alive. He said, Gratitude is your passion. And he walked out of the room. I’m like, Who’s he to tell me what my passion is?
So you know what? I got up there. And he and I talked about gratitude. And when you do it from a source of abundance, when you have gratitude as your guiding north star, the world presents opportunities to you that you aren’t even aware of.
Andi Simon: So, Michele, for those who sign a gratitude diary, it’s not the three things that you’re grateful for each day. It’s not sending a gratitude note. It’s something different. Talk to us before we talk about the book. What is it that you found in the word gratitude that can flush it out for us, give it a personality beyond them. The tactical practical that we hear because this sounds like a life strategy, something that gives you richness beyond anything in particular, but something bigger and richer. Am I hearing you correctly?
Michelle Bailey: Yes, and you are. For me, gratitude is about energy. Think of a ball of light. And when you give that ball of light to someone else, gratitude shows up in so many ways. You are giving energy to another person, and allowing them to receive something that you see in them. Too often, we are all so busy, we’re racing. We just need to get through the next thing. When you have gratitude as an anchor, it allows magic to appear. And I’ll give you a very short little story.
Over the last two years, as you know, a lot of people have lost their jobs or resigned from their jobs, etc. There’s a woman that I know in banking. I had lost touch with her for years, but I heard she had lost her job. And I didn’t think anything of it. We’d lost touch. I got a call from her husband. How he found my number, my name, I don’t know. And he called me up and he said, Michele, my wife is in a really bad way. Could you please reach out to her because she’s not getting off the couch. And it’s been weeks.
I’ll be honest, I hung up that phone, I thought, I have no time for this. And I thought to myself, a man looked for my number. He doesn’t know me, himself, by calling me and saying that his wife needs help. I know she hasn’t been in touch, please help her. So I reached out to her. And I didn’t tell her her husband called me. I reached out and I suggested we go for a walk. She came up; I live in the country. She came out and we walked and I let silence do the lifting and I just listened. That was my act of gratitude. I just listened to her hurt, her overwhelmingness of being let go. Not knowing, I just listened. And I invited her back two weeks later. And what I did when we went on the walk is I told her all the wonderful things I saw in her, both personally and professionally in the 10 years I had known her, even though we had lost contact, and I reminded her that she is special. And there’s someone out there, a corporation that’s going to see that. Silence, listening, observing, and just being present with to get this woman back in a good space. And she’s got a great job now. Something as simple as that, that’s an act of gratitude.
Andi Simon: I love it. I love it. Because anyone listening can do that. It’s not like you need to go take it. But you do need to pause for a moment and think about how you can help somebody. Now I’m going to pause for a moment.
So Michele has told us an amazing story that sort of has been captured now in her book. And what I’d like her to do is talk about the different chapters in the book so that this gratitude currency can come alive, even more than just the gift that she gave this lovely lady who needed a hand, but also so you can begin to hear about what gratitude can become for you, as you’re dealing with all of the transformation coming out of the pandemic. And who knows whether we’ll be coming back into another one. Michele, share with us the contents inside your book, please.
Michele Bailey: Absolutely Andi. I am pleased to share that. So I’m showing people how, Chapter One, placing gratitude at the center of your personal brand changes relationships. And again, I talk about those questions I teach people to answer. Also about creating brand ambassadors. That’s Chapter Two. Blazing has created brand ambassadors. That’s why I never have to advertise for jobs. People come to me through word of mouth because of brand ambassadors. I talk about gratitude in winning business. I do not take winning business for granted. And I’m not one to win business and start going to the next piece of business. I want to win business to make sure it stays and when I lose business, and I do, I continue keeping in touch and I go back and win more business then I’ve lost.
Chapter Four, gratitude as a means of retaining clients and customers. Almost all of Blazing business is grown through referrals. That’s about retaining clients and customers. Chapter Five is about gratitude and self care. If we can’t be grateful to ourselves..first big act of gratitude: be grateful and kind to yourself. Then I wrote about gratitude during times of crisis. I held back on the publishing of this book. Forbes was not too happy, because I saw gratitude unfolding during the pandemic. I needed to talk about how people show up in cooperation for other people in times of crisis.
And then my last chapter is about making gratitude a habit. I have a daily planner, it’s called The My Big Idea planner. And every week at a glance, I have to write about things to do personally, things to do professionally, what I need to reflect on or who I need to reflect on, and who I need to think about. As I look at my planner, right now, I see that there’s five gratitude cards that I need to put out. As far as reflection, there’s two people that I need to reach out to, because they need a little extra something from someone. And I’ve chosen that this is the week I’m going to reach out to them. So that’s how I make it a habit. And it becomes a habit. Andi, it’s every Sunday night, five minutes for me to set up my week so I know what I need to do.
Andi Simon: Now, as you’re thinking about this, think about it as if you’re the audience listening in. You greatly created a personal strategy for your life. And you created the action steps to make that come alive. And you’re telling us a story about how it’s transformed. We’d love to know a little more about the transformation, because you didn’t start doing this. This has come along in your life journey where you began to see how to build those relationships in particular ways. You know, do you have an insight in terms of who Michele is now versus where you might have been, as you were starting through all of this. Was Blazing a different kind of company before it began to have that epiphany that this was what matters?
Michele Bailey: Actually, Blazing was a different company. I was focused on culture, gratitude. That was always my focus. It was all about creating an awesome culture, and to be a company where I wanted to work, because I had two previous employers, and I dreaded Mondays. So it showed me what I wanted to create. So that’s creating a winning culture. I think it was about 10 years ago, when my dad died, who was my mentor. My dad was everything to me. He also lived with us, and he worked at Blazing. So when he died, I was so busy taking care of my immediate family, and then my brothers and their families all throughout the US, and then I went back to the office to take care of my team.
We’ve been working with Dr. Fritz for years and years. Nobody was coping well with his death. For me, for three weeks I tried to get everything and everyone settled. And then I realized that I hadn’t grieved, breathed this immense loss in my life. So I took a backpack and I went down to Costa Rica by myself for two weeks and off the grid, no electronics. I brought a pen and paper. I brought paints. I brought poems to read and I hiked in the rainforests of Costa Rica every day. It was only my last day there, when I sat down and I wrote a letter to my father that I began to heal. So on that plane ride home, I sat on the plane, and I made a list of all the people in my life that I needed to thank. And that’s what transformed to understanding that gratitude expressed to people will really show them the impact they have on your life and tell them when they’re alive. So you don’t have to write a letter like I did to my dad.
Andi Simon: But as you known, the gift of giving is as much a gift to ourselves as it is to somebody else, and that bond, just then, you need it. Unfortunately, that catalyst was to realize it. But what a blessing that it came to you at the right time to begin to grow to the next woman who you were becoming.
Michele Bailey: It was. My father gave me a great gift. And I didn’t realize how big it was. But now that I know that gift was given to me, I’m trying to teach it. others.
Andi Simon: Well, it’s so exciting. But we are just about ready to wrap up this beautiful podcast together. And I’ve so enjoyed talking with you. A couple of things you don’t want the listener to forget?
Michele Bailey: I want all the listeners to know that your personal and professional life are never going to be balanced. So make it integrated and blended together first. The second thing is, it takes five minutes, no more than five minutes, to answer those questions I put at the beginning, and change a relationship with someone who means the world to you. Know they can’t read your mind. And the third thing is, you are always teaching people how to treat you. Peggy Gras, my mentor, has always told me that you are teaching people how to treat you. So get treated the way you want.
Andi Simon: This is such an interesting, important, wonderful, I don’t know the right adjective. My words are always empty when they don’t really capture the beauty of your story and the mission that you’re on to help the world become a much better place. I think it’s a global mission at a time when we need it a lot. It’s a very, very difficult time. And one was like gratitude, the relationships, the personal presence that Michele was talking about. Carefully listen to this podcast a second time and begin to think about it and even buy her book. It’s a great book to begin to understand how giving gratitude is not about one way, it’s about two ways and as you give, you receive, but also about how you build that life that’s worth living. And you might wonder about how to blend it, or how to balance it. But at the end of the day, life and work are together. We need to live and we need to have work, so somehow we have to pull it all into place so that our families and friends and those around us all thrive. So this is a great time. Do you want to put up that book one more time? What is the name of it? And how can they buy it.
Michele Bailey: The Currency of Gratitude by Michele Bailey. You can buy it on Amazon or wherever business books are sold. ForbesBooks is the publisher.
Andi Simon: And ForbesBooks is very happy to promote that. So this is a great time. Let me say goodbye to all of you who come with such attention and send me great emails, info@andisimon.com. Send them along and I love your ideas. And I love the people you want me to interview. It’s sharing at its best. Now my book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, won the bronze Best Business Book for 2022 in the Women in Business category by Axiom. And so I’m honored. And my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, won the same award but in a different category in 2017. So writing books is a challenge. And then when it works, it’s so exciting. So Michele, thank you for coming today. And for all our listeners, thank you for coming. I’ll see you soon. Take care now. Bye bye.
WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)
Learn about another AI: Anthropology Intelligence As a corporate anthropologist, some of my favorite conversations have been with fellow anthropologists. That’s why I wanted to share with you again the podcast I did in April 2022 with Gillian Tett, an anthropologist who became a journalist, a bit by chance and then by design. Her book, Anthro-Vision: A New Way to See in Business and Life is about the power of observation. Whether in Tajikistan as an aspiring anthropologist studying marriage rituals or reporting before the financial crisis of 2008, she mastered the art of listening to the stories being told, the resistance to change that people demonstrate, and the wisdom an anthropologist can offer. Could your business benefit from a little anthropology? Listen in for answers.
Watch and listen to our conversation here We’re all creatures of our own environment. As Gillian tells us, one of the problems with trying to use the methods of anthropology in a corporate setting is that the corporate world likes to see things in shades of black and white and on PowerPoints. For anthropologists say, life is grey and subtle and often contradictory.
Anthropologists love to observe, and by capturing the real lives of people, we offer insights that other data capture methods might simply ignore. We know that people don’t really know what they are doing and will often tell you what they think you want to hear. It’s their stories that offer opportunities to better ascertain the meaning of their culture, if it needs changing, and how to change it.
You can connect with Gillian on LinkedIn.
Want to learn more about how anthropology could help your business grow? Here’s a start: * Podcast: John Curran—How Can Anthropology Help Your Business Soar? * Podcast: Chris Diming—Isn’t It Time For A Little Anthropology in Your Business? * Blog: Three Ways Corporate Anthropology Can Help Your Company Change
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi and welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m your host and your guide and my job is to get you off the brink. So I try to find people who are going to give you a fresh perspective, see things through a clear lens.
Let’s just step back and take a moment to be a little anthropological and begin to understand that you really don’t know what’s happening until you pause and think about it differently. And as you know, in my books, I help you see things through the eyes of my clients who all got stuck or stalled because their stories were so great that they couldn’t see all the things that were going on around them. And that’s why a little anthropology can help you change, grow and your companies get unstuck. As you know, I myself am a corporate anthropologist, which is why I’m so excited to bring to you today’s guest.
Today, Gillian Tett is with me. Let me tell you about why she’s so special, and why you’re going to enjoy watching her or listening to her. Listen carefully to the stories she has to tell. Gillian serves as the Chair of the Editorial Board and Editor at Large in the US of the Financial Times. Forgive me for reading this, but it’s very important that you hear it.
She writes weekly columns covering a range of economic, financial, political and social issues. She’s also the co-founder of Financial Times Moral Money, a twice weekly newsletter that tracks the ESG revolution in business and finance, which has since grown to be a staple FT product. In 2020, Moral Money was the SABEW best newsletter. I’ll tell you, it’s a great newsletter. Previously, Gillian was a Financial Times US managing editor. And she’s also served as assistant editor for the Financial Times markets coverage, and a lot of other things of great importance. I love to read theFinancial Times and I bet you do as well.
She’s the author of The Silo Effect, which looks at the global economy and financial system through the lens of cultural anthropology. She’s also authored Fool’s Gold: How Unrestrained Greed Corrupted a Dream, Shattered Global Markets and Unleashed Catastrophe, a 2009 New York Times bestseller and Financial Book of the Year at the inaugural Spirits Book Awards.
I must tell you she has written really good books. I brought her here today because she has a new book out called Anthro-Vision. And as you might imagine, it touched me and my heart. And I read right through it. I couldn’t stop because it was all about how, what she’s calling AI, not artificial intelligence, but anthropological intelligence, more intelligence and a whole new perspective. And what I would like you to understand is how a little anthropology can, in fact, help you and your business see things through a fresh lens and why it’s so important. Gillian, thank you for joining me today.
Gillian Tett: Well, thank you for interviewing me. And it sounds like we not only have a lot in common, but a lot to learn from each other. I’m interested in your own career and your own story because it sounds fascinating.
Andi Simon: Well, I have enjoyed reading about yours. But I’d like you to tell the listeners or the audience about who Gillian is because you’ve had a great journey that’s taken you to many places. And as an anthropologist, I smiled. Just a little aside, I took my daughters when they were four and five to Greece to study Greek women. And I know you’d appreciate this, I learned a whole lot about the Greek woman through my children. I’m not sure what my children learned, but they still love me. And so that’s all that matters. Tell us about yourself.
Gillian Tett: Anyone who reads my biography would think that I’m thoroughly weird. That has been the reaction of many business leaders, political leaders, economists, grown-ups who pretend to run the world, when they hear about my background because most people who work in high finance or business assume that if you’re going to be a journalist writing about them, you should have a PhD in economics or an MBA, or some kind of training in quantitative intellectual pursuits. And my background is actually in cultural anthropology. And I did a BA and then a PhD at Cambridge University in the UK.
And what anthropology really is about is looking at human cultures and systems, and what makes people and societies tick, not just in terms of the obvious things that we recognize, but most importantly, the things that we tend to ignore around us all the time. Just like psychologists look at our hidden biases in our brains, anthropologists look at our hidden biases and patterns and assumptions in society.
So in my case, I went into anthropology because I was fascinated by the rest of the world. I’ve always loved to explore and travel. And as a child, I dreamed of going to wacky weird places or places that seem weird to me. But like Indiana Jones, if you like the intellectual world, and cultural anthropology pretty much came out of that impetus in Victorian England, the idea that people would go off to other cultures to find the essence of what it meant to be human. And a lot of what anthropologists did in that way mid-century was indeed to go and travel. That’s changed a lot in the 21st century. I’ll come on to that in a moment.
But I went off in my case to a place called Soviet Tajikistan in 1989. And I spent about a year and a half of my life up in the high mountains in Tajikistan living with a group of wonderful villages. I imagine most people listening are saying, I’ve got no idea where Tajikistan is on the map, or what it’s like there. But basically, if you imagine the scenes you might have seen of Afghanistan on the news, and take out the black veils and put on very brightly colored clothes, then you roughly have the idea of what my village was like. It was in the high, high mountains of the Hindu Kush. And I was studying Tajik wedding rituals there. But I wasn’t just studying wedding rituals, I was looking at these rituals and symbols and ceremonies, and all the economic exchanges associated with weddings as a key to try and understand how the Soviet Tajiks reconciled their identities of being Islamic and communist at the same time.
Now, after I did my PhD, I then left Tajikistan. I actually became a journalist, originally a war reporter. And then I joined the FT and became an economics correspondent. And for the first few years, it felt as if all my training in cultural studies was completely irrelevant. But it’s funny how life works. Because a few years after I started writing about finance, I suddenly realized that actually human beings are humans wherever they are. And in just the same way that I went studying Tajikistan wedding rituals in the Hindu Kush, and looked at how they use symbols and ceremonies to express ideas about their world.
To give you an example, two investment bankers get together for gigantic ritualistic ceremonies called investment banking conferences, where they have all kinds of rituals like PowerPoints, and bar meetings, and golf tours. And those rituals and ceremonies and symbols also create social networks, and express all kinds of assumptions which could and should be studied through an anthropologist lens. So the latter part of my career has been all about trying to use this anthropological vision, and apply it to the world of business and finance and economics. And frankly, I think it’s something that anybody could benefit from, particularly now, given that COVID has ripped up our normal lives and has thrown us all into culture shock. And we can all benefit by thinking about what makes us really tick.
Andi Simon: When you think about that, you in your book play out some of the stories in there. You’ve provided us with a broad range of fascinating illustrations of the application of anthropology to different situations. Whether it was to a childcare center that wasn’t doing well, or getting into pet care, or to the economic crisis of 2008 or what happened with Cambridge analytics, give us some illustrations, some case studies that are some of your favorites. The reason I ask is that, as you were describing, I could imagine being in the highlands of Russia.
I took my kids to see what it was like to be a woman in Greece, and I studied the Greek immigrants and they returned to migration. But if you haven’t done that, there’s no way you know what it’s like. And when you do it in modern society, in our businesses, people say, Well, what do you really do? I say, Well, I hang out a lot. And I listen a lot. And I’m looking for all the gaps that are on the sides of what people assume to be true. The only truth is, there’s no truth, I tell people, and then they get really frustrated because it’s all an illusion that we’re living. So some illustrations, some great stories that you enjoy sharing about the ones that really make a difference.
Gillian Tett: Well, one of the problems with anthropology and trying to communicate it in a corporate setting is that the corporate world likes to see things in shades of black and white, and things on PowerPoints. And anthropologists say, well life is grey and subtle and often contradictory. And in reality it is, that’s really the only way to understand situations. But it’s not always easy to boil down into a single chart. But for me, one of the most important moments in my own career was when I realized that actually the same tools I looked at Tajikistan weddings with in terms of analyzing and symbols could and should be applied to investment banking conferences.
I went down to the Mediterranean in 2005 to an event called the European Securitization Board and looked at those rituals as if I was seeing them like an anthropologist. It showed me that the bankers that were engaged in that securitization business back in 2005 had all kinds of assumptions that they were barely aware of themselves which were distorting their vision of finance quite significantly and laying the seeds for the subsequent 2008 financial crisis. So when I looked at the bankers at play in their conference, I can see that they were a tribe set apart with a strong sense of their own identity. And like any social group that has a tight network, that was birthed and being reflected and reproduced in the banking conference.
And they had a creation mythology. You know, every group has a creation mythology. Their creation mythology was that perfectly liquid markets, so called liquefaction of financial markets, was the ultimate perfect gold, the Holy Grail. And they were so addicted to this idea of a perfect free market. So they kind of failed to see all the contradictions in their creation mythology, like the fact that, although they were creating these innovations supposedly to make markets more innovative and more safe and more prone to perfect trading, most of these new products were so complex, they weren’t being traded at all. And they weren’t even able to value them with free market prices. Because it wasn’t at the market prices, they had these models, the tools they were using to disburse risk were actually introducing new risks in the system because they were too complex for people to know where the risks were. And they said that these tools were done entirely to help people. But there were no faces in their PowerPoints. It was all Greek letters that indicated it wasn’t just an accident that there were no faces. And their PowerPoints reflected a mentality that the end user had been kind of screened out of the way they saw finance.
And you can say, well, that’s kind of a pity. But actually, it had a really practical implication because what it meant was that the people creating new financial products were so caught up with the creation process, they couldn’t actually see how the products were being used on the ground at the end of the financial chain. There’s a wonderful scene in the movie, The Big Short, where a hedge fund trader goes and meets a pole dancer in Florida. Great scene. The financier, the hedge fund guy, goes, Holy crap, these people are doing this with subprime mortgages. And it was a real shock. And the thing that was shocking was not the fact that subprime mortgages were being used and abused on the ground, it was the fact that so few financiers could see what the end result was because they were so detached.
So I came back from my conference, having spotted all this in terms of how the bankers were conducting their rituals, and it’s one thing that led me to later warn that there was going to be a financial crisis. And I kept issuing those warnings over and over again. So that’s one example where you can use anthropology tools to look at how a social group is blinkered and has blind spots that don’t see, which can be dangerous.
But in my book, I talk about ways that consumer industry groups can use anthropology to try and understand consumers, to try and understand what really drives fashions and trends to try. And also I’ve talked about how businesses can use anthropologists to see what’s going wrong in their companies. General Motors did that very effectively several times. And you can also use anthropology to understand how other offices really work, or how they don’t work. So almost any sphere of life where people are operating can benefit from some anthropology.
Andi Simon: Often, I’ll take a client with me out to their clients, to go spend a day in the life of their clients. So I’m going to teach you a little anthropology, I say. Let’s go watch and see what’s going on. You sell them solutions that you think are perfect. Let’s watch how they’re actually using them. Because to your point, if I went out and looked and came back, they would delete me. You didn’t hear it, right? You didn’t see it, right? So we go with them. And the two of us watch in the same factory exactly how it’s being used. A sensor that’s actually measuring the color of something or some technology that’s being applied. Then we go out and we write down everything we saw. And the two of us were in two different places at the same time. We were each seeing completely different things.
The conversation that follows is fascinating to me, because they’re still trying to figure out what it was I was looking at and listening to. To your point, this is about listening and seeing and what they were listening to and why they were trying to fit it into their box. Like, you’re a wonderful economist, we’re trying to fit it into their illusion of reality, and what the reality actually was and I might claim as mine in a better reality, but I’m looking for the gaps for you and you’re looking to fit it into your box, which may no longer be the right box anymore. And that’s so important now, coming out of the pandemic The way we used to do things isn’t any longer the way we’re doing it. So people are hiring us to figure out, what do we do now? What’s happening out there? Come watch with us. So as you were putting together your book, I have a hunch each of the stories touched you in some of the same ways.
Gillian Tett: I mean, the power of anthropology, in many ways I would argue, is essentially what you’re doing is trying to engage in a three part journey. And the way I put it, that basically you are trying to simultaneously immerse yourself into the minds and lives of others so that you can understand them better. You’re trying to not just immerse yourself in the mind of others, but really trying and seeing the world through their eyes in a kind of humble, open-minded way and to collide with the unexpected. You’re trying to then use that knowledge to look back at yourself. Because, there’s this wonderful Chinese proverb that a fish can’t see water. None of us can see the assumptions that shaped us unless we periodically jump out of our fishbowl, go with other fish and talk to other fish and then look back at ourselves again with clarity of vision. And then you use that inside-outside perspective. The experience of being a stranger in your own land to not just look at the parts of the world that you talk about, the visible parts, but also the parts of the world that you don’t talk about, or the assumptions that you ignore because they seem boring or geeky or dull or taboo or obvious. And that sort of three-part journey can be really powerful.
An example: General Motors brought in an anthropologist to look at why some of its meetings were going so badly wrong, why some merging initiatives were going so badly wrong. There was an attempt in the latter part of the 20th century to create a sort of joint car between German and American engineers.They tried and tried for about two years to create a joint small car by bringing this team of engineers together. And at the time, they assumed the problem was because of linguistic differences. I know the tendency to think oh, those Germans don’t understand the Americans and Americans didn’t ask the Germans, because that was the obvious difference and distinction that was in everyone’s faces. But some anthropologists observed the group and realized that actually it wasn’t a straight story of German versus American clash. There was a bigger clash between different teams of Americans between Tennessee and Detroit. And because they all had very different cultures in their factories.
And the really interesting thing was they kept calling meetings to try and resolve the problems without realizing that all three different groups had different ideas about what a meeting was and what the whole point of it was. The Germans thought it was basically to rubber stamp a decision that had already been taken and that it was very hierarchical Their meeting didn’t really count as work because work was what you did elsewhere. The Tennessee group thought that a meeting was there to kind of brainstorm and you had to have some kind of collaborative consensus-based system and they thought meetings were work. And the Detroit group had another idea all over again.
So all of the people were coming into that meeting with different expectations, and because they weren’t actually talking to each other in advance, and they weren’t looking at the story behind the story, which is basically what were their different cultures, and what were their expectations of meetings, they kept wrongly describing it as a German-American thing, and it wasn’t. So those patterns played out over and over again in offices.
And it’s really important to think about that now for two reasons. Firstly, most businesses right now are in the grips of radical tech transformation, as automation and digitization takes off. And that’s creating a whole different bunch of cultural clashes, because the way that a group of techies in San Francisco are trained to think about meetings is not the same as say, a group of metal bashers in Detroit. But secondly, COVID and the pandemic and lockdown has challenged all of our ideas about how offices and work and meetings should happen. And we haven’t been together in groups to kind of learn from each other and thrash it out. We’ve all been scattered and isolated.
So within every company, the longer that COVID and lockdown has gone on for, the more you’ve created micro subcultures, who may be totally talking past each other all the time. And often exasperated senior managers who are middle aged, go, Oh, these millennials, they’re so weird. But what about the age gap between different generations? Or maybe just the fact that different subcultures are growing up inside companies as we’re scattered. And as we return hopefully to the office, different cultural patterns will develop all over again, and we need to think about it.
Andi Simon: Well, you’re not Malinowski, and you’re not going off like Margaret Mead to a small island. To some degree, that’s just what’s happened during this pandemic, islands have been created. And as we’re watching them…for example, I have a wonderful client that I’m going on my fifth year with them all in transformation. And they used to give remote work as a benefit to their partners and their employees, until the pandemic hit and everyone went remote. All 70 employees. Now they can’t get them back into the office. And they said, Well, what was valued before as a benefit, it’s now a penalty. And how do you take the same thing: remote work one minute is wonderful and in one minute it’s awful. What are the values that are coming, and the partners are lonely.
And the reason they want them back together is for human companionship. And what’s so interesting for me is to watch the dynamics going on. Because they don’t find a way to articulate what really matters here. It isn’t about having them come back in the office, and that’s not bad, and people decide with feelings. Their logic is, Well, I don’t have to commute for an hour plus, I can get so much work done. Why do I have to be there to have lunch together, we’re not going to do that. I mean, it’s so interesting to watch the head and the hearts here at odds with each other on this island that I’m not quite sure was perfect before. And I’m not quite sure it’s so bad right now, but nobody’s quite sure what we should do to build coming out of it. And I have a hunch this is the proliferation of islands that all of us are watching happen across the country and across different industries. It’s really interesting as an anthropologist to step back and just observe and laugh a little and cry a little bit too.
Gillian Tett: I guess the point that you know very well that you’ve seen in your own kind of work, which is so important, is that we need to talk not just about what people are obviously talking about all the time, that’s in your face, but also we need to always ask ourselves in any context, whether we’re in an office or any other setting, What are we not talking about? What are we missing? What is the story behind the story? What’s the context? And one of the ways I try to illustrate that point is through an issue that isn’t to do with work.
Practically, everyone who’s middle aged with teenage kids is grappling with why are teenagers so addicted to their cell phones? And if you ask people that question, they go, it’s because of cell phone technology. Or is it because of those wretched teenagers or it’s because you know, evil tech companies are busy designing algorithms, which are addictive? Certainly that’s true to some degree. But the reality is that you can’t understand teenage cell phone usage without stepping back and looking at what people don’t talk about, which is how teenagers move in the real physical world. And if you go back 100 years, teenagers had a lot of opportunities to physically roam, to meet their friends on the streets, even 50 years ago, they went to the shopping mall. They cycled to school. They would hang out with their friends on the fields, without parents watching every move.
But in the 21st century, and even before lockdown, you had a whole generation of middle class American teenagers, particularly in suburbs, who essentially are overscheduled. They are driven everywhere by their parents constantly being monitored. And then you go into the pandemic, and suddenly this sense of physical constraint is even more extreme. So is it any surprise that you have a generation of people who think that the only place as a teenager that you can test boundaries, congregate spontaneously, explore the world without parents watching is online, in cyberspace? You can’t talk about cyberspace experience without looking at the physical world. That’s the social silence, to use a word that anthropologists sometimes use. And that model or metaphor applies over and over again to almost any aspect of modern life.
Andi Simon: You said something very profound and well worth emphasizing. The times make the man or the man makes the times. Here we have a transformation of trust and of safety. When I was a kid growing up, we would go outside and play stickball on the street, and get on my bike and ride to the mall to go shopping with nobody. As my kids grew up, we began to realize how much more structured their lives were without thinking about the implications of it. I don’t think we spend our time saying that’s good or that’s not good. We sort of flow with what society is doing and then you have all of the after effects of transformation.
I’ve had several university clients who are frustrated because they couldn’t get their Gen Ys, now the Gen Zs, to come in and play athletics. They spent their days on video games. And they were much happier playing a video game and not coming in to go play baseball or basketball or watch them. And socializing with more challenges. I actually had a grownup client, a professional, who spent his weekends playing games. His whole friendship network was there. And as an observer, I said, Oh, this is really a pure point, a transformation of our society without much intentionality here, if you know the world he was in, he never met any of the folks that he played with, which by itself was sort of an interesting and new and bizarre society in which we’re in.
You know, as you’re thinking about what’s coming next, I don’t know when the pandemic is really going to end or if we’re going to live in a COVID world for a while. Are you? As this is a futurist podcast, I would like to ask what are the signs you’re seeing? What do you hear coming through? I have a hunch, you’re picking up little signals already that you’re curious about? Because I know I am. What do you see?
Gillian Tett: Well, I think that people have been forced to re-examine how they’re living. And what is fascinating was the late 20th century was a time when people had quite rigid boundaries between home and work in many professional contexts. Not always, but most western professionals thought that the office was a place you worked in, you might bring work back to home. But that was separate, you had a work time and a home time. You had your office colleagues, your friends, your family, they all sat in different buckets and we took that for granted.
The reality is that actually that pattern of the 20th century is an absolute aberration throughout most of human history, and even throughout many parts of the world today. And what COVID has done has tossed most of us back into a state of being something like a peasant farmer, where your house is your locus of work, and your family is mixed up with your colleagues and everything else. And we may not like it, but it certainly challenged our boundaries. I don’t think it’d be that easy for people to recreate those boundaries in such a rigid way going forward.
A second change that’s happened, which is not so bad, is because we’ve been locked down in our own groups, I think maybe we’ve become myopic. We’ve basically been locked down with people just like us, our pod, our friends. And people thought initially that when we went online, we would somehow break down our tribalism. Quite the reverse has happened because the key thing to understand about the internet is that it allows us to customize our identities and experiences in a way that’s never been possible before. And I think it’s changed our vision of how we as individuals relate to society.
You know, most societies in human history have seen the individual as a derivative of society. We’re a cog that fits into a machine with identities that are pre-assigned. You know the enlightenment in Europe and this idea that we are the center of our society. The “me generation.” “I think, therefore I am.” Society’s derivative of me. 21st century with digital tools has given us the capability to basically customize our world as we want to know. We customize our coffee choices, our media sources, our friendship groups, and identities online. We customize our music tastes. Today’s generation doesn’t want to have a vinyl record, which has been pre-assembled with someone else. We want our own pick of a mix of music to listen to when we want, exactly what we want. And that’s really a shift that’s been exacerbated by the pandemic because we’ve been so reliant on cyberspace. And it’s made us even more tribal, I think, in a very bad way.
Another shift that’s happened is that people’s sense of the future, being a predictable, rigid path that goes in one direction has been shaken by the pandemic. Late 20th century was a time where most Westerners had lived a pretty stable life, pretty predictable life…no longer. And it was also a world where people thought okay, so I have business economics in one bucket, and sort of a do-gooding environment, social issues in another. And I think, again, that’s breaking down. And you can see that in the corporate world where, essentially, companies are realizing that environmental, social and governance issues aren’t just about activism, they’re about risk management, about making sure that you don’t suffer reputational risks, or the loss of assets that lose value if the regulatory climate change changes, and you don’t alienate your customers and your employees. So people are no longer seeing business in just such a rigid tunnel vision way, it’s more about lateral vision. And that’s very, very important.
And last but not least, I’d say that another shift has been in terms of cryptocurrencies and finance. In some ways, the move into cryptocurrencies, the move into meme stocks, is also part of this pick and mix culture. Patterns of trust are changing. As anthropologists, we used to say there was either vertical trust, or horizontal trust, where people trusted each other in peer-to-peer groups. This provides a social group glue to keep groups together. Or, you had vertical trust, which was trust in institutions and leaders on a large scale. It was presumed that when you had big groups, you couldn’t have horizontal trust. Digital platforms have enabled something called distributed trust to explode. Suddenly, huge groups of people can do things on the basis of trusting each other via digital tools. That’s how Airbnb operates. It’s also how most cryptocurrencies operate. You trust the crowd through a digital platform, but not through an organizational hierarchy. And that’s, again, changing people’s attitude toward money and value and exchanges in a fascinating way.
Andi Simon: If we write about this in about five years, we will have captured a major catalytic moment transforming society. If you listen to the multipliers of what we’ve just described, when I work with my own CEOs, mostly mid-market size clients, they are becoming far more stuck, stalled and immobilized than they’ve ever experienced in the past. They don’t know what to do. And what’s so fascinating to me is that they really don’t know what to do. And they’re not willing to go out of their corner office, out of their comfort zone to begin to see. And so they’re really struggling with whether or not their businesses are going to survive. And there’s no reason why they can’t survive, they just have to change. And all of a sudden, that entrepreneurial spirit that got them there is stalled. And the certainty you spoke about, I’m not sure that was true, or an illusion that humans prefer certainty versus being fragile. But in fact, it’s really raising up those people who can see opportunity in being agile, and I’m willing to change. The brain hates me when I go into a company to say, You’re going to change and immediately all that cortisol is produced, and they go, Oh, please get out of here.
But in fact, I do think there’s going to be a training ground now for the agility that’s needed for the next phase. Because as we come out of this, it’s not going to be certain either, and nobody can really plan the way they might have thought. And I don’t think that you should plan anything. I think you should try to be nimble, agile, adaptive, and talk to people. You speak about the silence, it’s a great time to start listening. Just talk to people and you don’t have to do it in person if you don’t want to, but you can try. But I do think it’s a time to listen to each other and not decide anything, just pull it in and just be anthropologists. Just listen to the conversations.
Judith Glaser has a wonderful book on conversational intelligence, that you start by saying all of society are conversations. And I truly think that’s a simple way of saying, Yep, just listen to each other. But the conversations are hanging out, and begin to think about what’s really going on in those conversations. It’s a little like that picture of that scene when they say, Who’s doing the subprime mortgages. What are we missing?
You have some great five big things in Anthro-Vision. Do you want to share them with our audience? I guess I’m pushing people to bring a little anthropology into your life. It’s important and one of those five things.
Gillian Tett: Absolutely. Well, having said you can’t boil anthropology down to a PowerPoint, here’s my PowerPoint. Lesson one: recognize that we’re all creatures of our own environment. In a cultural sense, we’re all fundamentally shaped by a set of assumptions that we inherit from our surroundings that we never usually think about. And they matter.
Lesson two: recognize that just because we are shaped by sort of assumptions, that doesn’t mean they’re universal. It sounds very obvious, but the reality is that it’s human nature to assume that the way that we live and operate and function is not just inevitable, but natural and proper, and that everyone else would kind of live like us. And guess what, there’s a multitude of different ways to live and think, and if you think that yours is the only right way, you’re going to suffer badly in business.
Lesson three: coming out of this is to take time to immerse yourself periodically in the minds and lives of people who seem different from you. In my case, I went to Tajikistan, which for someone having grown up in England, it was very, very different indeed. But you don’t have to go to the other side of the world of Hindu Kush. Just go talk to someone down the end of your road who lives in a different world. Go talk to someone in a different department, go take a different route to work, go swap a day with someone with a different profession. And if you can’t do it physically, because of the pandemic, get online and basically explore another tribe online. And then mentality: I mean, just change the people you follow on Twitter, say for a week, and you’ll see a completely different perspective on life.
And then lesson five: for us, the experience of immersing yourself in the minds of others to become a stranger in your own land, and to look back at yourself with fresh eyes, and see what a stranger would consider to be weird or shocking, or impressive about how you live and your assumptions. And think about what you’re not thinking about. What are the parts of your life that you’re ignoring, the social silences, often thinking about the rituals that you’re using in your everyday life, the symbols, the patterns that you use to organize your space, and your family groups, or your time. Those can often be very revealing, if you step back and look at them with an inside or outside his eyes. You know, why would you consider it to be odd to keep your hairbrush in the fridge? What does that mean? I mean, what are you missing? Well, what is one of your ideas about different body parts and about your mouth versus your hair, or you know all these inbuilt assumptions, which you take for granted, but are often very revealing.
There’s nothing wrong with the patterns we inherit from our surroundings, unless we remain prisoners of them and cannot imagine alternatives. And right now, as we come out of the pandemic, try to reimagine the world and recover and rebuild. It really is time to have an open mind, particularly after a pandemic that’s kept us locked down mentally and physically, and in danger of being captured by tribalism.
Andi Simon: What a beautiful ending, Gillian. Thank you so much. I’ve had such fun. It’s fun to wander with you. Any last thoughts? How can they reach you? And how can they buy your book?
Gillian Tett: First, let me say what a great joy it has been to do this with you. And I greatly salute what you’ve done in your own career, which is fascinating. I write for the Financial Times, twice a week with columns. I also oversee a platform called Moral Money, which is the ESG sustainability platform at the FT, which is a newsletter that goes out three times a week. And my new book, Anthro-Vision, is out on sale. I should say last but not least, as another sign of culture, if you’re listening to this in America, you can find my book Anthro-Vision, with a bright red jacket cover, and a picture of me on the back wearing a bright red top looking like Fox TV because that sells in America. If you pick up my book in the UK, or any part of the former Commonwealth as they say, you’ll find my book is sold with a nice white understated cover with a picture of me on the back, wearing a blue shirt on a stoop clutching a cup of coffee. The British publishers thought that a picture of me looking like a Fox TV babe was too scary for the British market. And therein lies a story about why culture matters.
Andi Simon: And you hope they’re right. Well, I think that for the listeners, and our audience, whether you’re watching this or listening to us, it’s been truly a special time to share the essence of On the Brink with Andi Simon, our podcast, but my job is to help you get off the brink helping you to see, feel, and think through a fresh lens. There is so much going on today that’s going to expand in a positive way the possibilities that are before you. It’s the art of possibilities now. And rather than trying to go back…people say, I can’t wait till the old comes back. It’s not coming back because I don’t even know what the old was and you don’t either. But you also know that the new is giving you opportunities that are tremendous. Think about them in a positive way and you’ll see them turning lemons into lemonade or limes into margaritas as somebody said to me recently.
It’s a great time. Gillian, thank you for joining me today. And for our listeners, don’t forget, here’s what I’d like you to do. I get emails from across the globe at info@Andisimon.com. You send me your ideas, you send me people whom you want me to interview. Send them to me, give me some ideas about topics that would be cool for you. I actually am doing a Leadership Academy and one of the gentlemen there, a physician, said, You know, my sons are listening to your podcast, and I laughed, and I said, How old? Eight and ten! I said, so that’s my target audience. And I will keep talking to them, but they should listen because I think they and you will really benefit from understanding how a little anthropology can help you and your business soar. Bye bye now. Stay well. Bye bye.
Hear how to create a workplace where people love to work I first had the pleasure of interviewing Konstantinos (Kon) Apostolopoulos for this podcast in July 2020 as the pandemic was raging around the world. He and Dr. Elia Gourgouris had just co-authored the book, 7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis: A Practical Guide to Emotionally Dealing with Pandemics & Other Disasters. Now Kon has written another book due out next year, called Engagement Blueprint: Building a Culture of Commitment and Performance. And what is so fascinating about his new book is that it focuses on business culture change and employee engagement as the keys to business success. Kon and I are both culture change experts and so as you can imagine, I’m excited to learn what he has to tell us today, as I think you will be too.
Watch and listen to our conversation here People seek out environments where they feel valued and their needs are being met. Some keypoints from today’s discussion:
- An engaged workforce looks for things that need to get done because they feel appreciated and value helping the company move forward. They’re connected and understand clearly what the goals are, and they’re looking for opportunities to support their teammates in meaningful ways and make contributions that will make a difference for the organization and for themselves.
- They look at their daily activities as opportunities to learn, to grow, to capitalize on that, to invest in themselves.
- When that happens, work becomes learning, work becomes play, work becomes exciting. That’s the kind of place where engagement really thrives.
- People want something more than just financial success. They want, and need, to be valued and appreciated in what they do. We all do.
How to reach Kon You can connect with Kon on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and his website Fresh Biz Solutions, or email him at kon@freshbizsolutions.com. Also, take the online version of Kon’s self-assessment questionnaire to learn what your organization can do differently to really soar.
Want to learn more about * Podcast: Richard Sheridan—Joy in the Workplace * Podcast: Maria Colacurcio—Stop The Revolving Door. Help Your Employees Embrace A Diverse And Equitable Workplace. * Blog: Change Is All Around Us But It’s Terrifying. So How Do I Make Change My Friend?
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi and welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I’m Andi Simon. And as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. And I love to do it by bringing you interesting people who are going to help you do something important. You’re going to see things through a fresh lens. You’re going to feel things differently. And remember, we decide with how we feel and then you’re going to think about it. Because if you can see it and feel it, then your brain says, Oh, that’s what we’re talking about. And today, this is really a great opportunity, particularly coming out of the pandemic, still not being sure or certain about work and life and hybrid and all kinds of things. It’s time for us to think about that organization we want to build.
So today, somebody whom I interviewed earlier for this podcast, in July 2020, is coming back because he’s writing a new book, a solo book: Kon Apostolopoulos, who is a really wonderful gentleman who works with organizations to help them, like I do, change. Let me read you a little bit about his background. He’s founder and CEO of Fresh Biz Solutions, Fresh Like That, and Human Capital Management Consultancy, which provides performance improvement and training solutions to help organizations develop their people, improve business results, and reap the benefits of a comprehensive talent management strategy.
During the pandemic, he and Dr. Elia Gourgouris published a book called 7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis: A Practical Guide to Emotionally Dealing with Pandemics & Other Disasters. That was terrific and very timely. He’s a regular contributor to Thrive Global and Achievers Engagement. I think what you’re going to love today is that he has had time to develop a new book on employee engagement. He calls it Engagement Blueprint: Building a Culture of Contribution and Performance. Is that the title? Did I get it almost right?
Kon Apostolopoulos: Almost right. Almost right. Commitment and Performance. Both of those are things we’re going to talk about today. And hopefully I put down a half a word and then I had a figure. The other half was on. So good thing we can laugh together.
Andi Simon: What I think for our listeners and our viewers is so important is that Kon brings both research and experience and expertise to this engagement question. And I love when he talks about it because you’re going to begin to think about that blueprint that you need, which lays out a pathway to change what’s maybe a little chaotic today into something where employees believe in the place and really want to participate and belong. Kon, thank you so much for joining us.
Kon Apostolopoulos: It’s such a pleasure to be with you again, Andi. Thank you for having me.
Andi Simon: Our problem is going to be to only stay within a half hour or so because we love to talk. There’s nothing better than getting together with people who share your passion and your purpose. I want you to talk a little bit about your background so they understand who’s Kon. And then we’ll talk about the origin myth of this new book, which is so important. Please share with them. Who is Kon?
Kon Apostolopoulos: Thank you. It’s a pleasure. Kon is right now a 30 year veteran of the Adult Learning Performance Improvement Change Leadership space. I essentially work with people. The company I founded about a dozen years ago, Fresh Biz Solutions, is focused on helping organizations, the kind of organizations that you and I know, Andi, that spend a lot of time and money building, developing very intricate business plans. Where I come in and help is that I ensure that they have the right people in the right place, ready and willing to execute those plans because without them, the organization really has a plan that’s not worth the paper it’s written on because it needs its people at their best to be able to execute those plans.
And a lot of times that comes through workshops and development. A lot of times that comes through one-on-one or group coaching efforts to enhance the commitment that people have as well as their competence. Sometimes it comes with tailored events that need to be facilitated to bring people together and aligned with the goals that we’re striving for, and ultimately working with my clients on their systems to make sure that every dollar that they invest in their people is a dollar well spent and it aligns to something that they target that is very purposeful rather than a “nice to have.”
So I’ve been doing that for a long time now and I’ve had the pleasure of working in a number of industries across the spectrum with a number of different types of organizations: public, private, smaller and now much more of that mid- to large-space organizations that have enough people where we can make a difference and truly create the kind of workplace that people can find themselves, they can really align themselves, see themselves achieving their goals, and, oh, by the way, helping the organization be successful as well, because we all deserve that kind of a workplace.
Andi Simon: Engagement, though, is always a strange word. People talk about it wishfully. I’m not quite sure they would know it if they saw it. And then I couldn’t be sure how they would feel it if it was there. So let’s start off with, you know, you’ve moved through the 30 years into working with organizations large and small, and now you’re beginning to really find ways to make a difference. Why? Why should we even think about this thing called employee engagement? Why does it matter?
Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, let’s approach that from a number of different angles. Let’s look at our protagonists in the story. Let’s talk about, first and foremost, the employees themselves. People seek out environments where they can feel like their needs are being met. And when we talk about engagement needs, we talk about the need all of us have, first and foremost, to be valued and appreciated in what we do.
Second of all, to feel like they belong in that environment, that they’re part of a team, part of a tribe. These are basic needs, fundamental needs that we all have. In addition to that, in our workplaces, in our careers, we all seek to feel like we are making a meaningful contribution, that we are able to be productive in what we’re doing. So at the end of the day, we feel like we’ve accomplished something.
And ultimately most of us want to know that we are operating in an environment that invests in us, supports us so we can continue to learn and grow so we’re not remaining stagnant. So from that perspective, from an employee standpoint, these are basic needs that employees are looking for in their organizations. Now, the book that I’m writing is actually written from the perspective of the employer, the leader, the leader in all of us that now has to try to win the hearts and minds of their people and try to address those needs that people have.
And from that perspective, employers are looking at it and saying, “You know what, I put out a lot of things. I spend a lot of my money, my resources, my capital towards my employees. I want to know that that investment is being reciprocated and that there is value for me investing in that.” Otherwise, most employers will just settle for what they can get. They’ll settle for a situation where they’ll think, okay, I’ll just pay the basic minimum because I’m not going to get much more than that.
Whereas the companies that are truly performing at the highest levels, the brands that we have come to know and appreciate, they do things a little bit differently. They truly capture that engaged spirit of their people. They capture that discretionary effort, that commitment that people can bring to their work that want to see the organization succeed. That’s the magic that we’re trying to capture and that’s the environment that we all deserve to operate in.
Andi Simon: Assuming that one who’s listening or viewing is beginning to visualize an engaged organization with high levels of employee engagement. And I do this with my own clients, visualize. You can see it. You can become it. So what will a highly engaged workforce feel like or look like? Because while we say the words that they want value and they really want to be connected and productive, how will I see that? Will I know it? What will it feel like? And, what are the actions of the behaviors, not just the spirit that’s going to be demonstrated here for an organization to know I’m moving them into an engagement. Tell me, how do I see it? What will it feel like?
Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, first and foremost, the feeling is a different level of energy. There’s a certain heightened level of energy. There is an excitement, an urgency about the place. There is an environment where you notice that there are leaders at all levels of the organization, people taking personal accountability and ownership of activities. They’re not sitting around waiting for people to tell them what to do or not. They aren’t just taking advantage of the fact that, Well, guess what, my boss hasn’t really contacted me, I’m just going to sit here and play solitaire.
Engaged workforce looks for things that need to get done. Why? Because they feel appreciated and value moving forward. They’re connected and understand clearly what the goals are, and they’re looking for opportunities to support their teammates in meaningful ways and make contributions that they understand and know will make a difference for the organization and for themselves. And ultimately, they look at each one of their daily activities as opportunities to learn to grow, to capitalize on that, to invest in themselves. Because truly, work becomes learning, work becomes play, work becomes exciting. That’s the kind of place where engagement really thrives.
So as I work with one of my clients and we talk about how to build engagement, I’d probably say something like, Today, people wait to be told what to do. And in an engaged organization, they individually take the autonomy and accountability to try and solve a problem before they have to be told what to do rather than wait to have an idea come from someplace else. They bring the ideas elsewhere so they can see it manifesting into new ways of doing things rather than coming in and punching a clock. They want to see what else. They wake up in the morning, put their feet on the ground and say, How can I do something better today? Is that the kind of thing you’re looking at?
Andi Simon: Yes, absolutely. Because what you’re describing manifests itself with a very different attitude towards work. People are excited to be there. People are looking forward to the opportunity to engage, to see their partners out there because they truly see them as partners. There is a level of ownership, again, that thrives in this environment where people will step forward and say, How can I support you? It’s very easy to put your ego aside because you don’t feel threatened when you feel like part of the team, like you belong, like you are allowed to be there when you are valued for what you bring, small or large to this to the table.
Kon Apostolopoulos: Different people will contribute in different ways. But if you can see that connection between your job, your work, your output and how this moves the organization forward, that’s an important part. I mean, we all want to know where we belong and how we fit into this. It’s no different than I explain it to a lot of the leaders that I work with. I say, If you have a group photo, Andi, what’s the first thing you’re going to do when you get it in your hands? You’re going to look for…where am I in this picture and how do I fit in. That’s right. That’s exactly the picture that we need to paint for every single one of our people. So they know clearly in no uncertain terms what they do, where they belong and how they contribute to this and that. That contribution is truly valued and appreciated.
Andi Simon: You said something very important because there are times when that picture is of a toxic team and the need to belong overwhelms the need to do well. And consequently, we’ve all had clients where every department is toxic to the others. You know, finance won’t talk to marketing and marketing can’t talk to sales. And they all are on a different agenda. And somehow the organization’s supposed to thrive. They’re all engaged, but not in what you should be.
So is there some wisdom you can bring to us today about how you take apart that kind of silos? I’m thinking of a client I had in Mexico where everything was so siloed that nobody wanted to work there.
Kon Apostolopoulos: Right. Well, think about what drives a lot of that when we have a scarcity mentality, when the people that are incentivizing the work, that are driving the work, that are directing the work, say, Okay, there’s only so much accolades, so much reward to go around for what I’m looking for. You guys fight amongst yourselves who’s going to get it. But if I come at it from the perspective of abundance and I say, There’s enough gratitude and appreciation, there’s enough acknowledgement for all of us to be successful, that takes away the need for us to fight over scraps. And that’s a big part. That’s a fundamental, visceral reaction we have when we are in an environment where our very safety is threatened because that’s what a toxic environment does. Different levels of our physical, mental, emotional well-being are threatened by that. There is a scarcity out there. There’s not enough of that.
That’s why we strive to kind of rise to the top. But it’s the collusion of mass mediocrity. It’s the crabs in the bucket. Every time you try to rise above the rest in an environment like that, the rest of them are going to pull you down because it’s not even about them getting out there desperate enough that they will pull you down to climb all over you to get away. And that’s not a healthy environment, that kind of workplaces are condemned. It’s just a matter of time. They’re dead and they don’t even know it.
Andi Simon: It was interesting in that particular client, they were struggling to expand and become more innovative with a workforce that believed that the old ways were the way we do things, we can’t change. And I’m listening to you. They were each engaged in a different story. And we’re storytellers. And I always tell my clients, you live the story that’s in your mind. So what’s your story? And as I’m listening to it, it’s that they see the world around them in this company for their benefit, not for them serving a larger purpose. And I think that higher level purpose is what will create engaged employees, or is that not what you see also.
Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, I totally agree with you, but in order to get to that higher purpose, those fundamental needs will need to be met. There needs to be a “we need to create the kind of environment where people don’t have to worry about those things, where if you’re talking about a company that’s trying to innovate, you know it better than I do.”
Innovation demands risk. We cannot hope to innovate, to change, without risk. Well, in an environment that you’re describing that’s that toxic, where people are holding on to the norms and to the old ways, the legacy ways of doing things. Why are they doing that? Because they know it’s safe, because stepping outside of those boundaries has always perhaps been chastised, perhaps has been penalized, perhaps it’s been seen as evil. So they want one thing, but they’re rewarding or creating consequences for that thing. They’re rewarding the opposite behavior and thus creating those consequences for that. You can’t ask me to take risks if you’re not allowing me to make mistakes.
Andi Simon: Well, and it is particularly difficult. I sometimes have been working with companies, going through transitions with new leadership, and while they can say the words, I want you to be a more self-empowered entrepreneur, and the old person was directing and controlling the people who are there who don’t know what the words mean and they don’t know how to be self empowered. It’s so interesting. Let’s go back to your book, though. You’ve structured this book in a way to create a blueprint, and that becomes an interesting metaphor for what you’re trying to set up. I want to give you enough time to talk about the blueprint and how somebody might enable it or execute on it, because you clearly have a methodology here you want to share.
Kon Apostolopoulos: Thank you. And yes, indeed, what I found is that I started this project about 18 months ago. It was, as you mentioned, Dr. Elia and I had the opportunity to write a book together right at the dawn of the pandemic. And we got it out early on because we knew that people needed help. And that book was the 7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis. And it was a roadmap on how people can emotionally deal with change, drastic change in their lives.
What evolved from that, Andi, was an opportunity to take that same roadmap to my clients and to large organizations and really show them how what applies to the individual can apply, expanded out, and scaled out to large organizations as well. Well, once we got past that point now into 2022 and my clients are looking at what’s next, how do I get my people back in here and on board to work? So we started the discussion about how we win back that commitment from our people so they want to come back to the workplace, either physically or even through this hybrid or virtual model that we exist, but still truly gaining that commitment.
And that started the discussion based on that need. And I started researching. I started looking at the data that was coming out of very reputable sources, whether that be Harvard and their Business Review documents, through Gallup, through the Pew Research Center, through Deloitte, through all of them, various big names. And looking at the data and the trends that I was seeing, what I discovered are essentially that there are those four key elements, those four key drivers that we need to satisfy: the need that people have to feel valued, the need that people have to feel like they’re connected, the need that people have to be productive, and ultimately the need to feel supported to learn and grow.
And then in looking at my history, I realized, Andi, that that’s the work that I’ve been doing with my clients the last 30 years. And so the realization just hit me that the very framework that I’ve used over the years to support my clients is the same framework that answers those questions of how we create that environment. So essentially four drivers, and I have four pillars of the work that I do, that essentially each one of those pairings of my pillars addresses one of those needs.
So it’s almost like an overlap, if you will, and it fits so well in the sense of when I talk about how do we show people that we value them well beyond an equitable and honest paycheck, where people can feel like they are being rewarded equitably for the work that they do. Well, if you invest in people and you build their competence and their abilities and their commitment, they can and want to do the job. When you start connecting that commitment through coaching and the team building pieces, the elements now, people can feel like they are connected.
When I work with people on the competence and the systems that will support that, that allows them to be productive. And then when I take the systems that I built, the people systems and the team building, the teamwork part, we balanced both the output of task and the relationship pieces to now show people in a transparent way how they can build their careers and how they can achieve their goals through the organization, and grow and learn and expand their career so they no longer seek other places, other avenues outside the organization. They can reach all their goals within the organization.
And that whole packaging allowed me to really bring the data and the information, the science on one side and my 30 years of experience on the other, and put them together in such a way that now I have a very clear framework that is proven to be successful. And now I’ve got the stories behind it to show and illustrate in the book along the way, the case studies that will allow us to really illustrate each one of these points.
Andi Simon: Is there a case study or two that you can share? Because it’s always the stories that people remember. And as you and I were talking in preparation, I thought there were a couple of great ones.
Kon Apostolopoulos: Yeah. And there’s one particularly that I think illustrates the complete package that I’m describing right now. And I have that, I’ve published that as a case study for the industry itself, and it involves one of my main clients, one of my nearest and dearest clients that I’ve worked with almost from the beginning when I started my venture. They are a construction company and basically I work with one of four regions of this large billion dollar construction company.
But when I started working with them almost a decade ago, they weren’t a $1 billion company at the time. The region that I was working with was about pushing close to 200 million in revenues for this area. Over the years, as we’ve partnered, their goal for their strategic priorities for the five year plan was to double their revenue to reach 400 million in the time that we worked together and reaching up to last year. And this is basically, 2022 was their end of their fiscal year, they achieved 600 million in revenue.
So when I was sitting down with the president, the regional president and his team, he acknowledged that this would not have been possible without the work that we have done together, developing the systems and the people and creating a talent management plan that really supported their business strategy. Now, that’s not in itself the most extraordinary thing, because we can say that, you know what, we contributed. But I will bring a little bit more evidence to the story here. I mentioned to you that this is one of four regions. The other three regions are equal opportunity, equal size with this region. They in themselves only did 400 million collectively.
So not only are we showing the proof of what works for this particular region against their competitors here in this market, but we’re also showing it against the other control groups within the same organization, same structure, same hierarchy, same policies in other areas. We do things a little bit differently here. We modified some things and we’re able to really showcase that difference profitability wise, far exceeding the collective of the other three regions. Satisfaction, employee engagement numbers, retention, promoting ability, all of the key performance indicators that show that you are operating in a way that you have a healthy workplace where people can thrive and they want to stay and they can grow their careers. All of that was evident and present in this case, Andrea, so that’s the point that I point to, that is the example that I point to where everything has come together and all of this suite of offerings has been presented to them and utilized.
Andi Simon: Don’t forget to send me the link to that and we’ll include it on the blog where we put the podcast because it becomes concrete as opposed to abstract, but it’s also data demonstrated and evidence based and it says, Oh, this could really help my business turn from good to great, huh?
Kon Apostolopoulos: Correct. It’s the difference maker because at the time when all the companies were hemorrhaging and bleeding people, they couldn’t keep their people there with the Great Resignation and people were abandoning their jobs in droves and millions in the millions. This company, we not only did not lose any of our top people, we actually became a destination for people leaving their other organizations. So when you can become that employment brand that others seek out, when you become that employer of choice, how much easier is your job? How much does it save your bottom line, knowing that you can attract the best and brightest and retain them within your environment? That is a competitive advantage that will help you truly differentiate yourself from the competitors.
Andi Simon: Well, and it’s not just salary, is it? It’s all the other, I’ll call them, I don’t want to call them soft. They are the kind of human stuff that people are looking for. It’s true. They work for a paycheck, but they really do want to belong to an organization that values them and helps them get valued. It allows them to be productive and creative and really connected to others in a way that leads to better results.
And so we’re coming back to describing that kind of an engaged environment that we’re talking about. I mean, that’s truly what we were trying to picture for our audience here. And to understand when you are confident that your top performers, even if they pick up the phone and somebody says, Come work for me, I’m going to give you X amount more, and they say, Thank you, but I’m very happy where I am. Yeah, I can see myself here. This is my home. This is my workplace. This is where I find I’m at my best.
That’s a tremendous, tremendous asset to an organization that you can’t put a price on that. No, there is no price because it is the differentiator for life, not just for a company. As for an individual’s life where it has meaning and purpose, it’s pretty cool. So let’s go back to your engagement blueprint. When you have a client map out where they are and where they’re going and how they’re going to get there, can they do it on their own? Do they need your support? Are there steps that are simple to follow?
Kon Apostolopoulos: There are. And that’s what I’m trying to capture with the book. I’m trying to show people an easy way for them to first and foremost, assess which one of these drivers are strengths for them in their current environment, which areas they need to pay special attention to. And I outline each one of these areas, certain elements that should be present and available for them to consider. But I still don’t dictate which way they want to go. I make the recommendations of these areas that they should focus on, provide some examples of my own, but also case studies, many case studies in there.
And oh, by the way, we are also interviewing industry leaders across the spectrum, people that have been there, done that, and can speak to each one of these elements from their own organizations, people like Jamie Simpson, that is the hotel director I lead for a Jumeirah property that just had their 20 year anniversary, the first one of Jumeirah property meeting on Salam in Dubai. And they won the most prestigious team award in their area from Hotelier magazine. And she and her team showed what it looks like to be able to operate.
Now, think about that. We’re talking about a wonderful, talented leader operating in what many would consider a culture that is very male dominated in an industry that is full of male executives. Yet this powerful individual, this talented woman, has brought together in her own way, using her own talents and skills, brought together and created an engaged workplace where people can thrive. And her team can vary, can succeed with proof because that is not a small thing to achieve that award.
Andi Simon: No, And it is an acknowledgement of something more than just financial success. It’s about something much bigger than this. This is really an interesting time. You know, Kon, you’re a giver and you are a person who wants to help others grow. I know as we were talking about this book, what you have a whole lot of things that you’d like to share with our listeners and viewers and maybe their organizations to help them get going before the book comes out. You want to share? Would you share some of those things?
Kon Apostolopoulos: Absolutely. And thank you, Andrea. First and foremost, we’ve developed with my team an online version of our simple questionnaire that will allow anyone to kind of answer some basic questions and get a feel for where are we strong, where do we need to focus on, which one of these drivers do we find present in our environments, which one we might want to pay some attention to, with some very simple guidelines and simple examples of what they can do differently.
So I’d like as a first gift to offer that to you or to our audience here today, Andrea. And we can add that in. We can provide a link for them. They can simply go online, complete their questionnaire and have the opportunity to get some quick answers on the spot. Beyond that, if people are interested in finding out more, I’d love to welcome them into our growing community. And in this community we talk often about tips, ideas, examples of how to really engage our workforce, how to really create that environment for our people. It’s also the place where I’ll be sharing a lot of excerpts from the book, early previews of some of the interviews that I’ve been doing. Wonderful, valuable information that people can immediately turn around and apply, and if they so choose, to be part of this community, this growing community, and have first access to the insights and the information that we’re sharing. Even before the book is published.
Andi Simon: This is so exciting. So we can start with the self-assessment, and begin to become familiar through this group of the kinds of things you’re doing. And then the book is expected to come out by when?
Kon Apostolopoulos: 2024. We’re putting the final touches on it. We’re wrapping up some of our interviews and we’ll have some what I hope people will find as wonderful little surprises and nuggets in there for them.
Andi Simon: I can’t wait. There’s my crackerjack box in my little nugget in there. This has been such fun. Now, if they want to reach you, where’s a good place to get a hold of you?
Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, the easiest place for those people that embrace the LinkedIn platform is to look me up under Koach Kon. I spelled with a K on purpose. Andrea, I don’t want to mislead people. I want to make sure that they know. So Koach Kon on LinkedIn and they can also visit my website freshbizsolutions.com where they can find additional information about perhaps how we can help them or how they can readily find resources to help themselves really create the kind of environment where people can thrive.
Andi Simon: I love it. Do you have a team of people who work with you, or is this mostly stuff you’re doing as a solopreneur?
Kon Apostolopoulos: A lot of it is myself. I do reach out to trusted partners at times. I have a team that helps me with my marketing, with some of my strategic planning, perhaps with creating and building a lot of the assets that are of high quality that I can offer to my clients and to those listeners that we have here today. But periodically it’s always a pleasure to be able to partner with people that I respect in the industry like yourself, Andrea, and people like we can work together. We offer each other our insights and our support, but for the most part, yes, there would be me.
Andi Simon: I think that’s pretty good because if you’ve just been hearing Kon talk, he knows what he’s talking about and he and I share a whole lot of the same challenges as people who work with organizations that need to change or want to. And I can’t say it often enough, but change is pain and your brain hates us. And how many times have companies said to me, Well, that’s not the way we do it. I said, Well, that’s the problem. It’s the way you do it. Yeah, but that’s the way it’s done and I say, But it doesn’t have to be. Behaviors can change and if you change the behaviors, then your mind comes along and makes it sensible as well. So it’s not simple, but it is doable and it is doable with, I think, this engagement blueprint on how to build a more inclusive company that can really, really produce at a level that you’re looking for.
So I’ve had a great time here today and this has been absolutely a wonderful conversation. I will make sure it’s up on our blog and we push it out when it’s time. And I know my listeners and my viewers are going to say, Can I learn more? And I have a hunch you want to learn more. So I’m going to say goodbye to everybody. Thank you for coming. And so it’s a pleasure to help you get off the brink. And the only way you can do that is to see things through a fresh lens and feel them in new ways like we’ve done today. And then give some thought to, Do I need a blueprint? Do I need to begin to put together a process for change? And then we can together or alone begin to help you do just that.
I will tell you that changing behavior is very doable. You just need new habits. And if you think of that that way, you need to stop doing what you’ve done and start new habits and practice and practice and practice until they become the way we do things. And it’s not hard. It just needs to be done. And so these are changing times that require new things to happen. So with great pleasure, thank you for coming. Please keep sending me your friends and people you want me to talk to and people to listen to the podcast and share it. It’s always a pleasure. Have a great day.Take care now. Bye bye.
Hear how to really live diversity, equity, and inclusion, not just talk it
I just love women who are changing the world, and Dr. Rohini Anand is one of them. A pioneer in DEI, Rohini is a global strategic Diversity, Equity and Inclusion leader, a highly revered board member and speaker, and a published author. In her book, Leading Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion: A Guide for Systemic Change in Multinational Organizations, she provides businesses with a blueprint for changing their culture into one where everyone is welcomed, respected, and listened to. Does your organization need to change? Listen in as Rohini tells us how to do it.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Rohini’s 5 principles for bringing about DEI change:
- The first principle: Make it local. Global change has to be anchored in an understanding of the local context. Change has to be rooted in the local particulars informed by the history, the culture, the language, and mores of each place.
- The second: Leaders must change to lead change. Commitment from senior leadership is absolutely fundamental to ensuring that DEI is sustained.
- The third: It’s good business to institute DEI. Frustratingly, 70% of change efforts fail. That’s why a change narrative has to be congruent with the organization’s purpose and how business is done.
- The fourth: Go deep, wide, and inside out. Organizations are interconnected systems that work in concert with each other. DEI needs to be infused in the internal processes and systems, as well as externally. There must be a systems approach.
- And the fifth principle: Know what matters, and counter. Metrics clearly provide a global framework, a cohesive narrative to spotlight problem areas and solutions. To be instruments for change, leaders have to have the right metrics, and they have to hold their teams accountable.
How to connect with Rohini
You can find her on LinkedIn, Twitter, and her website www.rohinianand.com, or email her at rohinianand1121@gmail.com.
Want to know more about DEI and culture change? Start here
- Blog: How’s Your Culture? Doing Fine Or In Drastic Need Of An Overhaul?
- Blog: How Storytelling Can Transform Your Culture And Energize Your Team
- Podcast: Kim Graham Lee—How To Build A Culture Where Men And Women Truly Support Each Other
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi and welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, and as you know, I’m your host and your guide. And I’ve started to tell people on our podcast a little bit more about me, because they keep asking, Who are you? So I’m a corporate anthropologist, and I’ve specialized for most of my career helping organizations and the people inside them change. And you must recognize that people hate change, your brains would just as soon I go away. But the podcast came about after my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, was published and won an award. And my second book just won an award as well, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. I’m honored to be able to share with you my insights into how people can change, and particularly how corporate cultures must change.
So today’s guest is a very special woman. I can’t wait to share her with you: Rohini Anand. I met Rohini through the Women Business Collaborative, where I’m a member, and she is as well. I read her new book, Leading Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion: A Guide for Systemic Change in Multinational Organizations. Rohini has a wonderful perspective. I’m going to tell you a little bit about her and then let her tell you about her own journey.
But remember, our job is to help you see, feel and think in some new ways so you can do something. And the questions around diversity, equity and inclusion are profound. I cannot tell you how many CEOs have said to me, it took me three months to hire some people to diversify my culture. They only lasted three months. And I said, Okay, we have a bigger question here about what is your culture? And why should people belong to it? And humans want to belong.
So here’s Rohini’s background. She is a strategic Diversity, Equity and Inclusion expert, highly sought-after board member, a published author and speaker. She is recognized as a pioneer in DEI (Diversity, Equity and Inclusion) and has been on the forefront of leading businesses through lasting change for corporations, not for nonprofit organizations and government agencies worldwide. She was previously senior vice president of corporate responsibility and Global Chief Diversity Officer for Sodexo. And under her leadership, the Sodexo brand became synonymous with leadership in diversity, corporate responsibility and wellness.
And I have a hunch she’s going to tell you a little bit about her journey. But I’m excited because both in her book and in her work, she’s actually making things happen. And for all of you who are wondering, How do you make DEI happen?, you need to listen carefully because this is what’s happening. And now the question is, how can we share it so you can do it as well? Rohini, thank you for joining me today.
Rohini Anand: Thank you. I’m delighted to be with you, Andi. And looking forward to the conversation.
Andi Simon: Let’s begin, who is Rohini? What’s been your journey? Share it with the listeners, they love the stories.
Rohini Anand: Yeah, as you know, anyone involved in diversity, equity and inclusion work, this book is very personal for them. And my story is integral to who I am. I actually grew up in Mumbai, India, and growing up in India, almost everyone sort of looked like me. It is a country with a lot of diversity, many socio-economic classes, religions, ethnicities, languages, etc. I belong to the majority religion, Hinduism, and surrounded by others like me. I had the privilege of not having to think about my identity. So I moved to the United States as a teenager, and went to graduate school. And that really was my inflection point in my both literal and metaphorical journey.
And I have to say that my identity shifted from being a person who saw herself as the center of her world to being a foreigner to being an immigrant to being a minority, and I was totally unprepared for that. So it was only when I was identified as a minority did I realize the privileges that came with being part of a majority. I was part of the majority growing up in India, but I had not recognized my privilege in that way. And honestly, I was unable to until I was perceived as a minority and I experienced things differently. So the realization that identity is situational is fluid and informs the research that I did for my PhD and still informs my work.
So I would say that this vocation is very personal to me, understanding what it means to be perceived as a minority, as an outsider, is very much at the heart of diversity, equity and inclusion work. And I am fortunate that my vocation and my avocation are perfectly aligned. So it’s a little bit about my journey to the work that I do today. I continue to do this work. You’re right, I worked for Sodexo for 18 years. And we were hired from Sodexo in 2020, just before COVID hit, was the time to write my book. And since then I’ve been doing booktalks, strategic coaching and advising, and I’m on several boards, but I continue to do this work that’s so meaningful to me. It is part of who I am.
Andi Simon: Well, being who you are, when you were at Sodexo, I have a hunch you explored and learned a great deal about the challenges of building a diverse culture, particularly a global one. Now is that a good place for us to start to talk about the learnings that went on there because it was very profound. You went from India, I’ve been to India, it’s quite a complicated place. And coming here, discovering a culture that had a different attitude, different values, everything about you being here was different. And somehow you had to find a way of belonging, and humans want to belong. Some of the insights that came from the Sodexo experience would be really helpful, I think, to our listeners.
Rohini Anand: So Andi, when I joined Sodexo, there was a fairly serious lawsuit. And I didn’t quite understand or really recognize the seriousness of that lawsuit until about six months after I was hired, when it was certified as a class action lawsuit that was settled for over $80 million. It was a discrimination lawsuit filed by African Americans in the company. And I share that because you know what I say in the book, and the journey really was from class action to best in class. So that was the sort of situation that I stepped into.
But with the support of leadership, we were able to change the culture around and became known for leadership and diversity, equity and inclusion in the United States. And then it was a question of scaling this work globally. So what I found was that doing this global DEI work is very complex. It’s very dynamic. There’s no checklist, there’s no playbook, I don’t even think any best practices are adequate. But there were these five principles that showed up each time when I did the work that are absolutely critical. And they provide a true line.
Each of the principles is simple. It’s a simple statement. It’s based on my experiences, but also experiences of my colleagues who’ve done the heavy lifting in their organizations. They’re simple, but they’re disruptive. And they don’t provide any sort of standards, the plug and play templates based on what’s worked in the US, because that’s been a foundational mistake—to replicate what works in one part of the world, in other parts of the world.
So these principles can be applied with sensitivity to any culture, and really empower global leaders to develop their own solutions, not to mimic any one experience, but really develop their own solutions. So the principles are, and this is what I think is absolutely foundational in doing this culture change work, because it is about transformation, it’s about culture change.
The first step is make it local. And global change has to be anchored in an understanding of the local context. It has to be rooted in the local particulars informed by the history, the culture, the language and mores of each place. We have to consider the power dynamics, identify those that are the subordinate and not subordinate in dominant groups, identify how identity is defined, how it’s expressed. But understanding doesn’t mean accepting the status quo. Because outside influence can be cancerous for change. They can raise issues that those within a culture may not be able to see. Like, I was not able to see my own privilege, because of power dynamics. But this works best when local change agents are empowered to partner with outside influencers. So it’s about pushing the status quo, disrupting and pushing for change, but doing it with an understanding of the local context.
The second is what I call leaders change to lead change. And we know very well that commitment from senior leadership is absolutely fundamental to ensuring that the DEI is sustained. And when leaders embrace the DEI with authentic purpose and passion, the organization goes from performative action to sustainable progress. So leaders really need to internalize the benefit of doing it to themselves personally, and to the organization, that often requires the destruction of their worldview, and the painful work of introspection. And this happens often through stories, not necessarily data. But I think it’s important as leaders do seek out these disruptive experiences as they take ownership of their own learning, and be mindful of the toll that it takes for people with those lived experiences to share the experiences again and again and again. And so it takes leaders who intentionally prioritize the DEI as they would any other business imperative. So that’s the second principle: leaders change lead change.
The third is: it’s good business to, and without a compelling reason for change. We all know 70% of change efforts fail. But there’s reasons this sort of change narrative has to be congruent with the organization’s purpose and how business is done.
The fourth principle is: go deep, wide, and inside out. And that really speaks to the fact that organizations are interconnected systems that work in concert with each other. And DEI needs to be infused in the internal processes and systems and externally, so you have to take a systems approach.
And then the last one, the fifth principle is: know what matters and counter. And metrics clearly provide a global framework, a cohesive narrative to spotlight problem areas and solutions. And to be instruments for change, they’ve got to have the right metrics, and you’ve got to hold your teams accountable. So make local leaders change to lead change. And it’s good business to go deep, wide and inside out and know what matters. These five principles I think are absolutely critical to any change.
Andi Simon: Well, I love your principles. They are very much congruent with the culture change work that we do. But there are some things I’d like to dig a little deeper into, because the leader changing the way they see diversity, and equity and inclusion are essential. They’re the leader. The question is, how do you get them to change? Remember, we live the story in our minds. If we don’t collaborate with our mind, our mind does exactly what it thinks we want it to do. And so the research on the mind is so compelling.
Now, the question is, how do we get leaders to change that story, so that it isn’t the outsider who you’re bringing in sort of gratuitously, the outsider is essential to the growth of the organization, and how we now build a culture where we value that diversity as opposed to want to eliminate it, or control it or put it into a certain box. The thing that always worries me, having been an executive in two banks, you said you tend to bring in the diversity and put them into buckets where they belong. And they were sort of a stereotype of what kind of jobs they should hold, and where those people should be. And that by itself wasn’t diversity, or equity or inclusion. It was a different way of building mosaics, which wasn’t particularly good. Share with us. And I’m particularly interested in, How do I start with the leader? Because I think that’s where we have to start.
Rohini Anand: You’re absolutely right, we do have to start there. Let me share two quick stories. So you know, one story is about a particular leader who mentored a woman who is part of the organization, and she managed high security facilities. And after mentoring her, he came to me and he said, “If you had presented me with two candidates, a male and a female, and asked me to hire the best qualified candidate for a high security facility, I would have chosen the man because you need an aggressive, assertive leadership style. So it’s a dangerous environment, I would never have chosen the woman.” But he says, after having mentored this woman, who’s extremely effective, “She has a different leadership style. And she is very effective. She gets the assignment. I will never let an unconscious bias impact my talent decisions again.”
So I think that’s the story of basically providing leaders with disruptive experiences that help to shake their worldview, provide them a different perspective, expose them to people who are not necessarily like themselves, in this case, a woman with a different leadership style, so that they can actually do this work of introspection and emerge in a way that really shifts their perspective, their thinking, their worldview. We don’t know what we don’t know. So this leader was able to internalize that experience.
The other story that I have is a leader who listened to all these stories about diversity, equity and inclusion and was not buying. I had some Sodexo specific data, but he was not necessarily convinced. He got involved in a cross-company mentoring program along with other CEOs. He wanted to network with other CEOs and this was networking on the topic of diversity and he mentored a woman from a different organization and developed a trusting relationship with her. She got laid off, and she had discussed and shared with him her lived experiences being marginalized, being discriminated against as the only woman on the executive team, and he listened with sort of this newfound interest.
And he came to me and he said, “I just cannot believe that women have these kinds of experiences in the workplace. She was the only woman on her executive team.” He said, “This is unacceptable. I want all 12 of my direct reports to mentor a woman from a different part of the organization.” So they did, and of the 12 women that were mentored/sponsored, because it wasn’t just mentoring, these were senior executives who actually sponsored these women, nine out of the 12 got senior positions, either as country heads, or heads of large pieces of business. Now, again, it took the lived experiences of this woman. It came close to home, he developed a relationship with her. He listened to her, and it was her lived experiences that helped to shift his perspective.
So I think storytelling and lived experiences can be very beneficial. But I will caution that it is very tiring for those that have experienced these lived experiences to share them again and again and again. And we have to really maximize the impact of those lived experiences. But also, leaders have to take responsibility for their own learning at the end of the day. So I think those are sort of two stories. I have one more if you have time.
Andi Simon: I’m a storyteller. And I think that what you capture in the story, that you said that the leaders have to change their leadership. And the question is, Okay, how do I do that? And experiential learning is where we learn best. You can’t learn from a book and you can’t learn from listening to me. What is it you really mean? How does that really feel? Another story?
Rohini Anand: So this story is actually the CEO, previous year, to Excel. And globally, as you know, most companies focus on gender just because race and ethnicity translates very differently in different parts of the world. It doesn’t translate in many parts of the world. And this was a Frenchman in France. The word “race” was actually struck from the French constitution in 2018, for historical reasons. So when we started talking about ethnicity and race, he said to me, “Why dilute the focus on gender by bringing in all these other strands of diversity, because race doesn’t translate in France, it doesn’t translate in many parts of Europe.” And he was right. And so I realized that I needed to expand his worldview. And to do that, I invited him to an employee resource group meeting by the African American employee resource group in the United States.
He attended that meeting, one of maybe two French men who were at that meeting, one of the only white men at the meeting. He listened to the lived experiences, particularly of the Black men, Black leaders in that meeting. And it was very moving, because now he knew these people, again, these stories came close to home. He listened to the experiences outside and within the organization, so that listening to the lived experiences, combined with his experience of being a minority, was very disruptive for him. And he went on after the murder of George Floyd to send this really heartfelt message to the organization, something he wouldn’t have done under normal circumstances, and in succession planning meetings and talent review discussions.
Yes, you cannot gather data about people’s race and ethnicity in Europe, but nothing, no one stops you from asking the questions. So when individuals say, “We have diversity, we have Belgians, and we have folks from the Netherlands and from Switzerland and Austria, and Germany,” the question would be, “That’s wonderful. And how many of them are Black people?” So he was able to ask those questions. Again, it was a very disruptive experience for him. And what’s wonderful is, many of these leaders have gone on to other organizations and have taken this secessionist connection, this learning that they’ve had, and become allies and started to bring about the culture change in the other organizations.
Andi Simon: You are alluding to something very important. Two things I want to talk about. People are copycats, and they need to see others. You can call them role models, but unless somebody who they can admire is doing something differently, they would just as soon move away from it, hijack it and not be the solo solitary leader there. So building that base is important.
Rohini Anand: If I can just add to that, you’re absolutely right, Andi. And when he talks about this notion of belonging, we often say an employee’s sense of belonging to the culture of an organization, but there’s another dimension of belonging. And that dimension of belonging is the need for a leader and organization to belong to an elite group of companies that are committed to DEI. So I want to identify with other companies that are seen as diversity elite companies and want to be part of that. There’s this desire to belong to other organizations that are seen as having credibility.
Andi Simon: Because they feed off each other. Because the contagion is a healthy one, because if I’m doing it, and they’re doing it, somehow together, the whole ship rises. But if I’m doing it alone, that’s a long road home all by myself, solitary. It’s very challenging. The other side of what you were talking about, though, I experienced as a woman, and I am not a woman of color, although I have a niece who’s biracial, and we talk all the time about the challenges of being different.
I was an executive in a bank, and I went to a board meeting, and there were 49 men, a nun and me. I didn’t say anything. And for many years, I was the sole woman on any executive team. And the challenge for a woman in that story is how to navigate what role to play. We’re role players, I often think of life as theater. And I remember changing the conversations. I learned new ways of behaving, how to dress, how to perform, particularly when you are in a room of mostly men, and you are not exactly being asked anything to contribute. I can’t tell you how many times I was the only or among the few. And I do think it’s changing. And I’m glad that I can date myself.
But the other thing is, how do you advise or counsel those who are now being brought in to diversify? The gentleman I mentioned who spent three months recruiting a woman of color to join his organization and they only stayed three months was angry at her for not belonging. And I said to him, “Why is it her problem? And a combination? It’s not your problem or her problem? You brought her into a place that wasn’t welcoming, where there was nobody who looked like her. How are you going to change this? And what is the role of the person being anointed with this diversity banner to have to come in and do something for you?” Some advice or experiences, stories to share?
Rohini Anand: In terms of being the only, and you know, I think a woman of color is the double only, which is the other piece, as a woman and as a woman of color. And I think you’re right, I think very often, when you are the only one, it’s difficult to speak up. I do think that is what helps a lot, is if you can get allies and male allies within the room. So having the conversations outside to find out who can be an ally, who can amplify your voice, who can say when you talk, “That will work.” Who can say, “We haven’t heard from Rohini yet, perhaps we should hear what she has to contribute.” Those kinds of allies I think are really important. It’s sort of a double edged sword, because in a sense, usually the allies are the ones who have the power, the ones with the dominant group are white males. So in a sense, we’re asking someone to validate us as women, aren’t we.
And the other side of it is, in some senses, you’re using their power to upend their power. So there’s two sides to this. And I think it has to be used strategically, but I think allies are one piece.
I think the other piece of advice that I would give is, just be true to who you are, you have to be authentic. I think imitating someone else’s leadership style or a male style does not work because it does us a disservice. I think being authentic is absolutely critical.
And I think the third piece is, before you can join an organization, do research, because an organization that is not welcoming of someone who looks like you doesn’t deserve you. So do your research. And if you need to, walk away. There are other options that you have, particularly today with the talent shortages. So I think that organizations will have to change in order to provide a welcoming environment. I have millennial daughters, and you know, I know numerous people who have walked away from organizations because they didn’t see someone like themselves. And they didn’t think that it was a female friendly organization.
Andi Simon: Well, as I’m listening to you, it’s not a bad time to think about wrapping up because you and I could talk for a long time about this. And I know you can with great expertise. I think that the times are changing, and I’d like our listeners to walk away from Rohini and take away two or three things that you think they should focus on. And you have your principles, I like them. I love the fact that we’re talking about how to make them actionable principles, but what do you actually do if you’re going to do it local, what would be the top two or three things that they should remember, because I want them to do something when they leave.
Rohini Anand: So I think the one piece of change really happens at the intersection of people and processes, and you have to impact both. So I would encourage, on the personal level, to see how you can be an ally for others regardless of who they are in the organization. And then I would say, look at how you can dismantle those processes that are tenacious, that have advantages for some and have created disadvantages for others. So, work both the people and the process piece.
And then I think this power of storytelling is amazing. Even in terms of bringing along allies, I think it’s really important, but I think, use those stories with discretion because of the toll it takes on those that have lived experiences. But you know, work at the intersection of people and processes would be my one big takeaway.
Andi Simon: Where can they find both you and your book, to reach you?
Rohini Anand: Thank you so much. So my website is www.rohini.com. And my book, Leading Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, is available on Amazon, and all of the other major outlets. Also you can order it through my website.
Andi Simon: It’s a great book. It’s great to read it. I want to add one last thought to our listeners. If you don’t know Judith Glaser’s work on conversational intelligence, go take a look at it. Judith was an observational, an organizational anthropologist who passed away a couple of years ago, but when she was doing neuroscience work, she said something very profound. If you say, “I’m the brain,” it gets full of cortisol and flies away from it, it becomes a battleground. It’s a threat. But if you say, “We, the oxytocin, the bonding hormones, really make love there.”
So as you’re thinking about this, diversity, equity, inclusion is about us. And if you start talking about what we can do together, it’s a much healthier environment for us to actually do it, the bonding that happens. It is natural for the brain. And so don’t underestimate the power of the body to respond to the way you’re talking and the conversations that we’re having today, around how do we build a better world where people are part of a larger organization that can all together rise, and do better together because they care about each other. And I can’t tell you what a pleasure it’s been to have you here today. Thank you. Rohini.
Rohini Anand: Thank you, Andi. This is wonderful.
Andi Simon: So I’ll wrap up for my listeners and my viewers. My audience is terrific. You’ve put us in the top 5% of podcasts globally. Thank you so much. And you send me great people to interview which I just enjoy tremendously. And my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways to do something that you hate to do: embrace change. These are changing times. Please open up and try to do it with great joy. Bye bye now. Have a great day. Thank you.
Learn how to let go of worry and fear by learning new habits Today I bring you Joanna Hardis, a beautiful woman whom you’re going to love listening to. Joanna is focused on helping people with anxiety-related issues and obsessive compulsive disorders, so this is a person you really might like to know more about if that’s something that is in your life. She can give you strategies to help you break through the barriers that are holding you back and learn to let feelings be, which is what she talks about in her new book, Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way. Like me, Joanna preaches that change is hard but we can do it, we really can change and have a happier, more fulfilling life. Listen in and enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here Change your thinking, change your behavior
Joanna teaches us that when your brain wants to go to the “worry story,” that state of mind that’s causing you to be anxious, that is when you can learn specific skills to say, “Nope, I’m going to let that story be.” It’s really about doing nothing with those thoughts, letting the thoughts be, letting the feelings be there. She says that you may feel worried, but you’re not going to engage in those feelings, you’re going to let them be, instead of trying to get rid of them which actually makes the worry and the fear stronger. This really is quite fascinating and as she says, paradoxical.
How to reach Joanna You can connect with Joanna on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and her website. Her email is joanna@joannahardis.com.
Want to learn more about how to find more joy? Try these: * Podcast: Paula Guilfoyle—How Do You Manage Your Emotions To Build Better Conversations For Exceptional Results? * Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life? * Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times!
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi and welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, and as you know, I’m your host and your guide. And I love to find people to bring to you who can help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can get off the brink. I want you to soar. But sometimes we don’t really know how to do that. We want to. We may even visualize what life could be like if it wasn’t so…and fill in that blank. But how do I do that?
So today, Sarah Wilson, who I love, brought me Joanna Hardis, who is a beautiful woman who you’re going to love listening to. Let me tell you about her and then she’ll tell you about her own journey because she has a new book. And we’ll talk a little bit about the book today. It’s called Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way.
So here’s Joanna’s background. She’s a licensed independent social worker, a therapist and an executive coach in Ohio, and that’s her main business. She’s committed to helping people overcome complex challenges. And I know some people who watching this podcast are going to say, That’s me, I got it and it’s okay. So they can lead high quality lives. Her expertise lies in cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, which you may know about, an exposure and response prevention for adults, children and adolescents. You can find her on LinkedIn and learn a lot more about her.
A couple of things I just want to highlight. She really is focused on helping people in the face of anxiety-related issues and obsessive compulsive disorders. So this is a person you really might like to know more about if that’s something that is disturbing you and she can identify what’s holding you back and give you strategies to help move you forward. And today, the things that I think we’re going to talk about as we talk about doing nothing, it’s called empower you to understand, break through the barriers that are holding you back, create your own sliding scale of distress, and learn to let feelings be instead of letting them go. We’ll come back to these, and I’m sure Joanna is going to tell you a whole lot more about them. Please, thank you for joining us.
Joanna Hardis: Thank you for that lovely introduction, Andi. Appreciate that.
Andi Simon: Well, I appreciate having you. Our audience will as well. I’m curious about both your background, your journey, the origin of this great book, and then what our listeners will learn from our podcast today about this complex world that we’re in and the anxiety that often arises. And life is too short. We have to find better ways to live it. Your story.
Joanna Hardis: Yes. So how I got here. I imagine, well, I never intended to be a therapist. I sort of just happened to get here. I went to college, pre-med, not really even wanting to be pre-med. I wanted a fellowship in high school to do independent study and had a real interest in working with people with HIV. So I was in high school in the 80s when HIV was really emerging on the scene. I don’t know how it emerged, but I had an interest in working with people with HIV and AIDS.
So a friend and I got a fellowship to do independent study and worked with physicians at a local hospital working with people with HIV and AIDS. So I went to college, went to Cornell and had this real interest in having a career in HIV and AIDS, and was told at Cornell like, Oh, then you’re pre-med. And I was not a very savvy student, despite being at Cornell. So I was in a pre-med track and realized quickly that it was not for me. And went to my advisor who said, What do you like? And I said, I really like people. And so the advisor said, Okay, well, maybe you’re a social worker and not someone who at that time was very savvy.
Again, I said, Okay, well let me give this a shot. Let me give this social work thing a shot. And I got to do an internship. So I went to Costa Rica and lived and worked. And I thought that was incredibly cool. So I kind of found my way into social work, never thinking about other career paths like psychology or counseling, but really found my way into social work by happenstance. I started my career in HIV. I spent about a decade in HIV, still hold it very near and dear to my heart, but really fell in love with working with people and have a real interest in what makes people click and the brain and helping people move forward.
So my career started in HIV and AIDS and I got trained in cognitive behavioral therapy and have really always had this interest in helping people who are in very complicated situations, working collaboratively to move them forward. And so I have been able to partner with people throughout my career, and I’m in my 27th year as a cognitive behavioral therapist. I do that and really work with people in different areas of life.
So I’ve been with people with HIV and AIDS. I’ve worked in an eating disorder treatment center, which is unbelievably challenging. I’ve worked with young entrepreneurs. I have volunteered during the pandemic with therapy aides, just giving, volunteering with frontline workers to now having my own private practice where I have really committed to working with people with anxiety disorders because it just makes so much sense to me. Anxiety disorders and obsessive compulsive disorder.
Andi Simon: And there is an abundance. There’s an epidemic of this.
Joanna Hardis: Yes.
Andi Simon: And so it’s not as if you’re looking at a needle in a haystack. It is the haystack.
Joanna Hardis: It is. It is. And, you know, we know from data that parents who struggle, it has an impact on children. So I find it incredibly rewarding. I stopped seeing kids and adolescents during Covid because I had to move virtually. And so now my practice is adult. But I do work a lot with parents to change their behavior because we know that that can help children. We need a different way in which to help people that are struggling.
Andi Simon: And before we get into the book, which I’d like to know more about as to why you wrote it and what the listener can benefit from. But give us some context here for the audience, around where does anxiety come from? And the context, because what you’re talking about is that it becomes contagious. What’s going on with the parents? It gets picked up as normal by the children, who then spread it among other children who think we should all be anxious instead of we should all be happy. But I’m making that up. You help me help you, What is it like and how can we better identify it?
Joanna Hardis: Sure. And there is a difference between an anxiety disorder and anxiety, which is just a normal state and a normal reaction, for instance, to fear. So it exists on a continuum. So let’s walk it back a little bit to the difference between fear and worry, because oftentimes we confuse fear and worry. Fear is a response to a threat. So someone cuts you off on the highway and you get that fear. You get that flood of adrenaline in your whole body, you get the whoosh, the flood of adrenaline. That’s fear. It is a response to a biological threat, an external threat. Well, what if that happens again? What if someone cuts me off again? And what if that car is too close and oh my gosh, what if I need to go really slowly? That cognitive process to fear is what we call worry.
Andi Simon: Good. Great distinction.
Joanna Hardis: Right. And if you’re still feeling the physical sensations, we would say, I am feeling anxious.
Andi Simon: Gotcha. This is perfect, I know exactly who’s listening today. And that is exactly what they have gone through. And an initial fear of something that is now turned into anticipatory worry about it. Right. And it makes them anxious and unable to make good decisions.
Joanna Hardis: Yes. Now, and we may say that anxiety, perhaps that ride, you may feel anxious. But if that worry or that anxiety persists and the person every single time they get in the car or they think about getting in the car, they are worrying and they’re feeling anxious and it is starting to impair and it could impair their life because every time they’re thinking about it, they are worrying. Then we are starting to cross the line. And we may say that it could be crossing over if it happens for long enough. Yeah, it could cross over into an anxiety disorder. Or we may say it’s excessive worrying.
Andi Simon: Yeah. Those are great words because it’s difficult to know whether the situation requires a suitable amount of fear reaction or anticipating it. You’re worrying about something that may never, ever happen again and impairs your life. You’re smiling at me, but I really understand that for some situations, people are so anxious that they can’t take a step forward, they get locked in their own fear.
Joanna Hardis: Exactly. And then you know what? You have nailed it, Andi. And what people don’t recognize, they wouldn’t because they don’t know this stuff, is that the more time someone spends worrying about it, it is training their brain that this is important and that this is dangerous and that this fear that they have is actually relevant in the absence of any data that says it’s relevant. So the brain gets trained and then the brain is going to say, oh my gosh, we need to be extra vigilant.
Andi Simon: Yep. And they can’t articulate what the crisis will be because it has nothing to do with the facts of what’s going on. It has to do with their worry factor.
Joanna Hardis: Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so learning how to stay out of the story, the worry story, because there’s nothing in their direct experience that speaks to that. This is what is happening right now.
Andi Simon: It is. But it’s also very interesting about the connection between something that might have happened as opposed to not knowing why I’m here. And I have a hunch that sort of leads to our discussion about what you do and what this book is intended to do. Because once you see that progress and the dead end and the only way you can revert people back to seeing the world in a positive way is to back it up somehow and rethink it somehow or restructure it somehow. Help me help them.
Joanna Hardis: Unfortunately, the brain can’t unlearn.
Andi Simon: Yes.
Joanna Hardis: So the brain cannot unlearn that. You had that frightening experience. But what we can do is we can create new learning.
Andi Simon: Yes.
Joanna Hardis: And so that’s what the person needs to focus on, is that in this direct moment, in this present moment when their brain wants to go to the worry story, that is when they need to learn the skills to say, Nope, whatever it is that I want to go into the worry story, I need to learn how to let that story be. It’s really doing nothing with those thoughts, letting the thoughts be, letting my feelings be there. I may feel worried, but I’m not going to engage in them, letting that stuff be. And the focus is on the action that’s important. So getting in the car and driving and not paying attention to, oh my gosh, well, what if this happens? What if I get cut off? What if someone drives too close? It’s doing what we know in the moment is in the behavior. And letting the other stuff be.
Andi Simon: So I am curious about the book because I love this idea of when these things arrive, you’ve got to learn new thinking processes and new behaviors, so you become consciously competent about how to change what I’m thinking and feeling. So I begin to do it and practice it so I can become good at it. Right? It’s like a game. We don’t think of it as a game, but it is, to learn new habits.
Joanna Hardis: Correct. And it’s paradoxical. So the title, you know, the catchy title is Just Do Nothing. But then the subtitle, which is The Paradoxical Guide for Getting Out of Your Way. The paradox is that, and I suspect people that listen to you can relate. People are used to doing more. Yeah. And when people are feeling a lot and feeling more, they’re used to doing more to get rid of it. So they think more. They ruminate more, they worry more.
Andi Simon: And they write long, long, long, long, long things about it that you can’t figure out what it’s all about. Right?
Joanna Hardis: Yes. Well, exactly. And so it’s doing more to try to get rid of it that makes the worry and the fear stronger. So what we want to do is to learn how to get the skills, to do less with how we’re feeling and the thoughts that are so troublesome. And so that’s what the book helps people learn: the skills to practice in very small ways that build on each other to do that. And then they do it in gradually more stressful situations.
Andi Simon: So Joanna, talk to us about where this book came from, this is your first book.
Joanna Hardis: This is my first.
Andi Simon: My first book took me four years, my second book, only two, my last one, a year. I mean, we begin to figure out how to write a book and why it’s important, but this is an important book. Where did the idea come from and how did it develop?
Joanna Hardis: It was interesting. People have always suggested I write a book and I always said I’d never had anything to write a book about. So I didn’t really have an intention. And then I had been doing workshops with a colleague that I met who also is interested in anxiety work, and we had been doing them on helping people change their relationship with distress and discomfort. So I had been working professionally in this space in addition to my practice.
And then a year ago I had a curveball in my own life. I was dating, someone got ghosted, and it was my own personal explosion of distress. And it was someone I’ve been divorced from for ten years, but it was someone that I really thought that I could go someplace and was ghosted out of nowhere. And I had to really work on what I had been talking about in a way that I hadn’t in a long time.
And so it was a confluence of professional interest and then personal experience. And from that, I and the ghosting story, is literally the first page of the book. The book came out of that intersection and I had a fire in my belly and it took me less than a year to write the book.
Andi Simon: Yes. Exciting. Well, but it was there to cleanse yourself. Writing is a great way to take the mind and what it’s thinking about and push it out. All the things that you’re talking about, to learn new ways to build a new story.
Joanna Hardis: Yes. And what’s interesting is my work is focused on anxiety in my professional life. But what I talk about is distress, because what is under the umbrella of distress is anxiety, is stress, is shame, is embarrassment, is boredom. All these feelings that people really don’t like to feel. And so it broadens the umbrella for people because what trips people up, whether it’s what gets in people’s way, whether it’s not going to the gym, overeating, not asking for a raise. It may not always be anxiety. It may be shame, it may be embarrassment, it may be boredom. And so people need a process for all of those feelings.
Andi Simon: And you just said the word so well, because we decide with the heart and how things feel, then the brain gets engaged. And I also always preach that we live the story in our mind. And that story is an illusion of what your reality is, and you live it. And then something like your situation arises and now you have to rewrite that story to give it a positive experience for you so you can wake up every morning and say, Hey, this is a good day, as opposed to, Oh crud, do I have to get out of bed? But that’s really important. So talk to us about the book itself and then the kinds of things about the solution: just do nothing.
Joanna Hardis: Okay, so the book is structured in two parts. The first part is really frontloaded with education to help people understand why change is hard. Because I wrote the book for people, because I’m assuming that people who pick this up have tried to change their feelings. Stuck. They may have tried lots of things before and for many people, they’re coming in with a perception that there may be skepticism. They may think that their perception may be that they can’t change. So I want people to understand and this is all evidence-based work. So it is not just Joanna’s thoughts about life. It’s all evidence-based.
Why change is hard. Why? You know how we need to think about the thoughts in our head? You know, facts about feelings that are helpful for people, why we shouldn’t take them so seriously, that they only last 90 seconds. And in the first part, everything has exercises. So at the end of every chapter, there are exercises to practice. So you can read the book any number of ways. You can do each chapter and then do the exercises. You can read the whole book through and then go back through and do the exercises.
The second part of the book is Everything that Could Go Wrong. As you set about to make a change in your life, what could go wrong and how to course correct? So the first part is really to help people change their relationship with distress and discomfort. So it is really explaining why we need a new way, why things that you have may have tried don’t necessarily work. And then I lay out how we’re going to do it differently.
So instead of trying to get rid of feelings that we don’t like, we’re going to allow them and then we’re going to learn to do nothing with them and we’re going to focus on behavior that is meaningful to us and how we’re going to create a scale breakdown. What you want to change into little baby parts, and how when you start to feel the discomfort, you know how to move through it and you’ll have exercises to practice going from something with very low discomfort, with a process to move through higher discomfort. And then in the second half, as I said, it’s everything that could go wrong, including that when something gets hard and you feel like you failed, how to reframe your relationship with setbacks.
Andi Simon: Love this. You have no idea how timely this is for different people in my life who have gone through something traumatic or that they think is traumatic or are anticipating something traumatic. It’s so interesting to listen to the categories in my mind of the folks who you are describing without describing them as types.
Joanna Hardis: Yes. Interesting.
Andi Simon: It is. One is a young woman at a university that had somebody come in and shoot a professor.
Joanna Hardis: Oh, gosh, yes.
Andi Simon: And when you talk about the distress, the fear, the worry, and how do parents manage that in a way which doesn’t deny that there’s anxiety or anxiousness or concern to the point where the young woman said, I can’t even take a walk without feeling unsafe. And that is that car story where I’m not going to get in the car to drive because somebody almost hit me. And that becomes one kind of situation and another situation, that I know of where the act of doing something is going to be potentially dangerous, and so I’m not going to.
Well, but maybe you’ll miss a whole opportunity because it could be dangerous. And so there’s the disappointing one. But I think that what you’re describing is exactly what we know when we work. I mean, I have positioned myself as a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. And for my listeners, I always preach that change is pain. Because once you got a story in your mind, that’s the way you live and you don’t realize that these other things could change that story. Or if you want to change what you’re doing, you’re going to have to change the story. There is no reality. There’s only this mythical story in your mind. And it’s not doing good things for you. Your book sets out a path to change it. Am I correct?
Joanna Hardis: Yes.
Andi Simon: Oh, my gosh. You and I have a lot in common.
Joanna Hardis: Yes. Because in my field, we talk about what distress intolerance is, and distress intolerance is someone’s perception that they can’t handle. We call it negative internal states. So I can’t handle feeling anxious about taking a walk. So I’m going to stay home. So it’s getting locked into the story and then avoiding it.
Andi Simon: Yes. And that becomes my view of the world as if it’s real, not imagined, but everything is imagined. And so if I’m going to get past that and trust, I’m going to have to figure out how to take a step outside and begin to break the resistance to my fear and worry.
Joanna Hardis: Yes, exactly. And that’s what I’m talking about. Exactly. And we go about it because we have to get the behavior. We change thinking by changing behavior.
Andi Simon: I love it because that’s just what I preach. Because to change, you can’t do your strategy and be abstract. You have to change the behaviors, the habits so that things are actionable and then the brain comes and justifies. It doesn’t get better.
Joanna Hardis: We’re saying the same thing, but different.
Andi Simon: But it is so exciting. It is. Now, this has come out of your work, but it isn’t your work. So in some ways, you want to reach beyond the folks in Ohio that are in therapy with you.
Joanna Hardis: So, yes.
Andi Simon: How do you do some online seminars, workshops, or things that people could come to you for?
Joanna Hardis: So my colleague and I are doing online seminars, workshops, and we’re retooling it now. We are retooling it. And we’re going to be doing a course, interestingly, for anxious parents.
Andi Simon: Oh, great.
Joanna Hardis: Yes.
Andi Simon: And do they have to be just in Ohio or could they be anywhere?
Joanna Hardis: It can be anybody. It can. When we do these, it can be for anybody. But we are focusing on parents because right now there is so much nationally about parents that are anxious and are having a really hard time tolerating not only their children’s distress.
And so that makes it really hard for parents to parent the way they know they want to be parenting or need to be parenting. And parents have a really hard time tolerating their own distress. So they give in to their kids or they’re constantly nagging or they’re doing the work for their kids and they’re not allowing their kids the independence and the autonomy that we know kids need.
Andi Simon: This is so powerful because it is going to create a different world for the generation that’s coming. And I’ll blame it on the pandemic for the moment. But it is a time of transformation without clarity about how do I, on the one hand, cope with my anxiousness or my distress, my fear, and then also make sure that the next generation grows up strong, happy and able to solve complex problems with creative thinking, all the things that kids learn by playing outside on the street together and making a game together. Right?
Joanna Hardis: Yes. Yes. So that’s in the works. We’re in the final stages of putting the course together. And, you know, who knows? I mean, I may develop a course from the book. I have to see. It’s only been out a month. So I think if there’s interest, I may put something together.
Andi Simon: I think that you have a mission that I think is transformational for our culture and society that’s far bigger than that. If I hear you right, you mean you want to take the next generation of parents and kids and make them happy because it isn’t that the world is bad, it’s that they see it that way. You know, that letting a child walk to school, it’s not going to be they’re not going to get kidnapped. They might, but they’re not.
I rode my bike to school growing up and I went outside and we played kickball or stickball or whatever, on the street. We didn’t have organized stuff to the degree they have now. And so we were free to be kids. And I and some of my neighbors, we still stay in touch when we remember the joy of pulling the sled. I mean, it was freedom.
So now it’s become very constrained. And I’m not going to blame and complain. But I do think that if we don’t transform, the next generation is going to see the world through a very different lens and they’re not going to want to do anything.
Joanna Hardis: Yes. No, I agree with you. And I saw recently in The Wall Street Journal that parents, when kids are at summer camp, which used to be a time away from parents, parents are now obsessively looking over kids’ photos. So I guess camps are now posting photos of their kids at camp and parents are obsessively looking over the camp photos to make sure that the kids look happy, and they’re contacting the camps. And parents are really invested in the photos and taking action.
Andi Simon: And the photos have no reality. They’re just photos you’re imposing on them. Meaning…? But that photo may be at a moment where they were dealing with something or struggling with something or happily doing it. You have no idea what the meaning was at that moment. But you are certain that that photo says my son or daughter isn’t happy.
Joanna Hardis: And has no friends. Right. And then intervening in a child’s experience and parents are getting…I mean, there is so much wrong with that.
Andi Simon: So much wrong with it.
Joanna Hardis: We could do a whole podcast on what’s wrong with that, that I think that there is a need to really intervene. And I don’t blame parents. I think it’s the culture. The pendulum has swung in the other direction.
Andi Simon: You might almost team up with all those camp owners and say, You might want to educate your parents before they start their kids in camp. That’s a whole audience who, I mean, when I went off to camp, my husband and I started at young ages and it was our free time. The last thing I ever wanted my parents to do is show up. Right?
Joanna Hardis: Right.
Andi Simon: They don’t have to know anything about my sneaking out the back door of the bunk in the middle of the night to meet a guy down by the basketball. That was not what they were supposed to know.
Joanna Hardis: Right, Exactly. Can you imagine?
Andi Simon: Right. And the camp directors have gotten caught into this because now the world is all social. And so there’s a reality there. That’s one last thought. And then we will wrap up because I’m having too much fun. But there’s been a whole lot of discussion about the merger of virtual and reality.
And I have some friends who are teachers in elementary schools, and the kids are coming in unable to separate out social real from virtual real. And they can’t have conversations with other kids. They don’t know how to socialize with them. I’ll blame the pandemic for that. But also what we’ve done is replaced people with virtual and now they think that they’re almost the same and they like being the avatar in a virtual game rather than having a game with real kids. They don’t even know how to play in the schoolyard. Your thoughts?
Joanna Hardis: Well, I mean, I can only speak to what it does when I see it, when it turns into an anxiety disorder. I work so hard with people to use real data. It is so easy for people to get lost in possibility. And the more that someone is living online, living virtually, they are living in the ‘what if’ and living in possibilities and living in this comparison mode. They are comparing and it is just so hard for them to use their real sense data and it makes it much harder to treat.
Andi Simon: Especially real life experience vs. iimagined. Oh my goodness, welcome to the world that we’re moving into, that we haven’t even talked about.
Joanna Hardis: I was just thinking that.
Andi Simon: Because then I don’t know what’s real. This has truly been a pleasure. I usually like to ask my speakers 2 or 3 things you want the listeners to remember and then where they can get your book. But first, what should we let them remember the most?
Joanna Hardis: A feeling only lasts 90 seconds. That is so important. From the moment it is released in the brain to when it is out of the body. So people will always say, my feelings last hours and hours. That is because we are re-triggering the circuit by our behavior. That is essential to remember. Another thing to remember is that just because we think it or feel it doesn’t mean that it’s true.
Andi Simon: Just because we think it doesn’t mean it’s true.
Joanna Hardis: It doesn’t mean it’s true. And we always want to go with behavior, behavior that moves us toward what’s important to us or what we need to be doing.
Andi Simon: This has been truly wonderful.
Joanna Hardis: It has been. I’ve enjoyed it so much.
Andi Simon: I have enjoyed it as well. And that’s why I do podcasts, because I get pleasure at meeting new people and sharing ideas in ways that are difficult otherwise.
And for my listener, it is a time of change, and change is painful, and we are trying to figure out as we are coming out of the pandemic period what is “normal or certain.” And there is no normal and there is no certain. So now you need new skills, the correct skills that Joanna’s been talking about, is to begin to think about behavioral change. And because if you begin to do it differently, then you’ll think it differently. I‘ve learned a lot about what I needed to know today, which was a perfect day for this. So I want to thank you and the name of the book and where they can get it, please.
Joanna Hardis: The book is Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way. They can get it anywhere they want: Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop.org or go to my website: Joannahardis.com.
Andi Simon: It is a lovely website and you’ll learn more about her. So thank you. And so for all of you who come and are my fans and you keep bringing me more fans, which I love, and more people to speak on the show. Thank you. Our new book, Women Mean Businessis now available. Yesterday was our launch day, September 26th, and today is a wonderful day for you to buy it. Just like Joanna, any place that sells great books and enjoy it, it is 500+ wisdoms coming from 102 amazing women who are successful entrepreneurs and philanthropists in finance, in all kinds of ways, including in the C-suite and in senior positions in major firms. But they are leaders and thought leaders. And these women want to inspire you.
One of the things we keep saying is, As we rise, we lift others. And that’s our hope, because as you read it, you’re going to say, Oh, I can do that. Lilly Ledbetter is quoted. She says, believe it, do it, and believe in yourself and it will happen. But she has some marvelous quotes. I think that everyone in the book is there to help us do better. So thank you for coming today. And Joanna, thank you for being here.
Joanna Hardis: Thank you so much for allowing me to be here. It was so fun. Wonderful.
Andi Simon: Bye bye now. Everybody have a great day. Bye.
How can you achieve all that you are worth? Listen in and find out. Are you a business or organization that wants to significantly accelerate your growth? Don’t miss my conversation with Jessica Yarborough. It’s one of my favorites over our six years of doing this podcast (has it really been six years??) and I wanted to re-share it with you so you too can learn from her wisdom in case you missed her the first time in 2022. We talk about the challenges people face who are not reaching their income goals and how this leads to some soul-searching. I love how Jessica says, “If you need to make a decision, go somewhere alone and be with yourself and your inner thoughts. The answer that you’re seeking will reveal itself.” Let’s all practice this.
Watch and listen to our conversation here How build your sales, create long-term clients and hit your income goals, according to Jessica * Research your clients * Work with people with proven track records to bring you results * Stay focused on the process.
You can connect with Jessica on LinkedIn, Facebook, her website, her blog or her YouTube channel.
To learn more about scaling up your own business, here are some recommendations: * Blog: The 5 Things You Need To Know To Successfully Scale Your Business * Podcast: Bruce Eckfeldt—How Can You Really Scale Your Business to Succeed? * Podcast: Allison Maslan—Scale or Fail: Hiring the Right Folks for the Right Fit
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon and as you know, my job is to help you get off the brink. I do that by looking for really wonderful people to come and speak to you about new ways to see things, feel differently, think about them, and actually do them.
So today I have Jessica Yarborough with us. What’s really interesting is that we found each other on LinkedIn. And LinkedIn is one of those remarkable places to help people see, feel and think in new ways. I think you’re going to love her story because she’s going to help you think about where you’re going and how she has some great tools and ideas about how to help you get there. So let me tell you a little bit about Jessica and then she’ll tell you her story.
Jessica has quickly developed a reputation of being one of the best business strategists and marketing and sales consultants for entrepreneurs like myself, and sales consultants who want to sell high value products and services. Her background is in international businesses and she’s built multiple companies. You are going to love today’s journey with her because it’s interesting. This is a wonderful story by a brilliant woman.
Jessica is a genius at showing entrepreneurs how to build an expert platform, rapidly raise their value, and build their credibility online to attract high-paying clients. She travels the world teaching and inspiring entrepreneurs and helping them grow their influence and income so they can have the impact that they want. This is such fun. I’m anxious to hear your story, as well as to share it with my audience. So who are you? And how did you get here? Tell us about yourself. It will be fun to share it, please.
Jessica Yarborough: Andi, thanks so much. Well, as you mentioned, and to your audience, I am a business strategist. And today I’m focused on helping scale up coaching and consulting businesses, but I didn’t start here. You know, many, many, many years ago I managed multiple companies. I actually built a startup here in San Diego but the work was intense and the hours were grueling. And I remember I actually, even though I built a company, literally, we didn’t even have desk computers on day one which was so phenomenal to build.
I actually was on vacation, and I had a spiritual awakening. And I had a moment where I realized that even though I had built something that I was really proud of, it wasn’t in alignment with where I wanted to go with my life. And now in that moment, I made one of the most empowering decisions in my life, which was to make a decision all on my own, and to follow that inner guidance. So essentially, I flew back to the United States, I walked away from my company, bought a one way ticket, and I spent four years traveling the world, going deep into personal development, spirituality, and really finding out who I was at the core of myself.
I had great adventure stories around that but I did come back to the US. After about four years, I got pregnant with my daughter and became a single mom. Okay, time to build again. And I started my consulting business literally, and raised a child on my own to build it to seven figures, and have helped many, many clients reach high six and seven figures in their own businesses.
Andi Simon: In my book, Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business, there are several women who went on their own journeys. One went through Africa. One went through Europe and Israel on $5 a day. As an anthropologist, the journey isn’t inconsequential. So I don’t want to jump immediately into who you are today. Can you share a little bit about some of the discoveries during that journey that prepared you for who you became. If you can, that would be really interesting to share.
Jessica Yarborough: I mean, I will say it was probably the most magical time in my life. There’s so many insights that you can garner from looking at other cultures. One of them being how similar we really are. It doesn’t really matter how you were raised. At the core, we all have the same basic needs. Being able to learn from other cultures, their food, their spirituality. From spending time in silent meditation at retreat centers in Thailand to literally, practicing yoga in ashrams in Bali, to living in the jungles of Costa Rica. There are so many different experiences that really colored my world, about nature, about spirituality or God, connection to the earth, about human beings and our desire for love and appreciation and connection. And all of those shaped who I am today. I don’t think that I would be the business woman I am today without them. I would have been successful had I continued on my trajectory when I was younger, but I would not be who I am nor have the same depth in terms of level of fulfillment and purpose.
Andi Simon: Well, with that in mind, my hunch is you’ve brought that to your clients. So there are some things that I know you would like to share about how you approach a client and their own trajectory to begin to infuse their growth. Whether it’s a consultant or an entrepreneur, or someone inside a company trying to grow their own capabilities, how do you approach a client? And how do you bring this wisdom to them, to inspire them to maybe rethink where they’re going?
Jessica Yarborough: Absolutely, we all need someone outside of us to help us see our own greatness. You know, hold up the mirror to what we cannot see. We are typically blind to our innate gifts. Even the most successful people I know, and I work with CEOs who have built 14 companies, and it’s hard sometimes for even them to own their brilliance, their gifts. Part of the first thing I do is hold up that mirror for them and help them not only to recognize the incredible achievements that they’ve made in their life, but to actually see the pattern of really where their strengths lie because we all can do a lot of different things. And part of growing and excelling at anything is to become an expert at anything. We have to choose what are the core things that really are our greatest gifts. What is our unique genius and then we need to codify them in a way that we can teach, we can inspire, we can transfer knowledge to others. And so that’s one of the first things I do with my clients is really help them codify, What is their genius?
Andi Simon: And do you do that in a particular process? Or is it done through conversational coaching? Or do you have a methodology that you can share?
Jessica Yarborough: Yeah, it’s phase one of my methodology. So I have five systems that I teach to scale up companies. And the first one is the foundation of everything. It’s your offer, your impact system, it’s how you’re going to make an impact in the world with your gifts. And this is the WHO understanding. Who do you want to serve at the deepest level? And that may not be who you served in the past.
We might completely reposition you. That’s the HOW. How you’re going to take your clients who are in the pain of their existing reality, they’re struggling, they’re frustrated, and you are going to essentially build a bridge to their ultimate vision. You are going to save them years of time and frustration, divorce, whatever it may be, and take them to their ultimate reality.
So codifying that, HOW, and then tying it into that WHAT. What it is you actually sell, and then bringing the WHY behind why it is what you do. All of that is absolutely necessary to the foundation of a business. What you do, who you are, who you serve, and how you do it.
Andi Simon: You know, as an anthropologist, I often work with my clients on their stories. Whether it is a corporate culture story, or it’s an individual one, we help them change. Usually, we’re helping the individuals change as well as the institution. But what you just described are the elements of a good story. And the story that we usually carry around may not be the one that’s going to take us to the next stage.
If I hear you correctly, we have to take apart the current story and begin to build that new one in such a way as we can visualize, and I use that word very intentionally. Because if you can’t see it, you can’t be it. Consequently, that story and the telling of that story becomes an important part of how we begin to see where we’re going.
And then the question is, how do you get there? Because what we often find is that I get them to figure out that story, about what it is they want to be either as a person or as a company, and then how do you backward plan it. They all get stymied on the action steps, the small wins, the actual change. Sometimes I tell them it’s like theater. Life is like theater, and you know the script for Macbeth. But tomorrow, you’re gonna play Hamlet and you don’t have a script and you don’t have any time on stage. So how are we going to do this? So as you’ve developed this, is my model similar to yours? And how do you help them actually implement these things?
Jessica Yarborough: I definitely think there are similar parallels, because we do have to have the WHAT identified and there is a story behind that. One of the first things we do after we develop that is I teach them to teach their system to tell their story. And as you know, as a storyteller, you have to be able to bring in emotion. You have to be able to also back it up with logic for those that want to justify sales. And so having that beautiful story is actually the very center of everything that we do together next: which is their messaging, their positioning, literally it is the foundation, everything that we do in my program. Beyond that comes from that original story.
Andi Simon: Yes. So once you get that in your head, then we now need to tell it and the messaging becomes really critical.
Jessica Yarborough: Absolutely. So phase two of my system is marketing, which is your influence system. It’s how you’re going to generate widespread awareness, eager excitement and demand for your services. And there’s really three phases to that. One is an audience. You have to have the right people who are listening to you, who are going to lean in and ultimately take action and buy from you, or download something or whatever the action may be. And I think a lot of people get caught on having a massive audience,not about quality, it’s really about quantity. It’s about having the right people in there who are your dream people, and the name of the game is then relevancy.
We can do that with your messaging. Messaging allows you to really cut through the noise and to create a depth of trust and rapport without them even having gotten on the phone call with you. And so that, if you can get that piece right, which we help you with, it makes a huge difference in terms of your ability to grow your business.
And then the third one is positioning. So a lot of online entrepreneurs have what I call weak positioning. So they may know that they’re the expert, or feel that they’re the expert, but the world around them still sees them on a peer to peer level. So we have to shift the perception because someone is not going to pay you to solve their problem if they believe you are a peer. They are looking for someone who is elevated, who is a mentor, who is ahead of them in some way, who can fill that gap for them. So it’s very important that we address the audience, the messaging, and the positioning in order to elevate them as an expert.
Andi Simon: This is really brilliant. I am curious, is there a case study or something you can share with our listeners that illustrates this in some way? Sometimes we have to concretize the story. And the steps sound really very big and important. A case study might bring it all together.
Jessica Yarborough: So I have many case studies. One I’ll share is about my client, Michelle. She’s a business coach, and in the interior design industry, and she was stagnant at about $250 to $300,000 a year. She had a lot of different products, you know, too many offers. And we always help you hone in into just two, maybe three max. And she wanted to change her positioning in the marketplace and go after a high caliber market. So we really walked her through this process and helped her finally take all these theories that she had kind of spun off and put it into one really beautiful system. And she was able to take that system and scale her company to a million dollars in 12 months. And then we were able to repeat that and exceed that number just nine months later.
Andi Simon: That’s very exciting. It sounds like all the stuff was there. It just needed a new package.
Jessica Yarborough: So many people tell me when they come to me that they’ve tried a lot of different things. They’ve piecemealed it together, they’ve cobbled it together. It’s not totally reinventing the wheel, it’s taking what’s already inside you and pulling it together into a beautiful system that is sophisticated, that can elevate you and you can ultimately scale your business with.
Andi Simon: Now, are you working just with entrepreneurs or just with consultants? Are you working with a broad spectrum of people? As the audience that is listening, are you relevant for all of them? Because I think you are but I’m just curious whether you apply it in more context than just, perhaps, a consultant.
Jessica Yarborough: So my focus is mostly on coaches, consultants, trainers, speakers. I also have an agency for our clients as well. Typically, if you’re outside of the coaching and consulting world, you are working with me on a one to one level. So I do help companies in that regard. But in the past, I’ve certainly worked with all kinds of companies and all different levels from health care to nonprofit to spiritual conscious businesses. But my focus is really how can I apply the system and if you have a service based business, and if your goal is to sell high end because I don’t do courses or membership models, or any of that. I am a digital marketing expert, I can help you with that. But it’s not where I choose to play. But if you want to sell, like I said, bigger engagements and make a massive impact as you work with people on a more intimate level for that transformation, then that’s where my services come in.
Andi Simon: This is really exciting. As you’re thinking about this for the audience out there, are there two or three or four things that are really key to this that they should pay attention to? Because my hunch is that there’s a whole lot of coaches, consultants and speakers who are looking as we come out of the pandemic for a new positioning or beginning to understand what’s going on inside of the companies. Are there some real key things that we’re ready to really focus on?
Jessica Yarborough: Well, absolutely. I would look at the ladder of influence. A lot of people start out at the bottom with the generalist. You can think of this as a Jack or Jill of all trades, master of none. This might be someone who has way too many offers. They constantly change their messaging, or they’re constantly launching new things. It could also mean someone who has too many things that they claim to be: life coach, business coach, real estate agent, you know, and a dozen other things.
And what the main takeaway for your audience is, you cannot build expert authority if you try to be everything to everyone. If you try to be everything to everyone, you end up being nothing or no one to the one person that matters. And so the first key is to move from generalization to specialization and that is to pick a lane. This could be a niche, it could be a specific industry, but you have to go all in on what you want to be. It may not be who you are right now, it could be that next level thing that maybe you have a little bit of fear, a little bit of trepidation around. But you know it’s within you. You know there’s greatness. You know you’re not living up to your potential and you’re ready to step into specialization.
You can scale your business from $150 to $350,000, but there is a place where you become stagnant. And typically this is when the business owner becomes the bottleneck. They’re doing all the things. And so really, the scaling comes at expert level. And that’s when you put these five systems, I described two of them, in place and you start to move from being the hunter to the hunted online. Your name becomes synonymous with the very person that can help your ideal clients solve their problems. So if you can focus on that ascension, up the ladder of influence, you will be able to break the glass ceiling, self imposed glass ceiling, in your business and reach new heights very quickly.
Andi Simon: This is very interesting. I love the idea of going from hunting to being the hunted where people are searching for you. And they’re not only searching for your name, but for those keywords that might solve the problem that they’re looking for. And you come up because you’ve done great jobs on content, marketing, and keywords and other things in the digital world. But you also have a reputation that now is taking you to places where people are looking for you.
Jessica Yarborough: It’s like finding what I call your Goldilocks moment: it’s just right, it’s not too cold. That’s not passive, we’re just waiting for people to come. It’s not too hot, where you are being aggressive, and you’re hard closing or you’re trying to slide into a CEO of a $100 million company and get him to watch your webinar. Just nothing. It’s the Goldilocks moment, it’s just right. There are people flowing to you, you’re still putting out some outward energy to build that credibility, but it’s that perfect moment, that perfect balance, that perfect flow state that allows you to get to the next level.
Andi Simon: I love what you’re saying even as I’m thinking about myself, because we’ve been in business for 20 years, and very successfully with a good flow. But the pandemic, it’s been fascinating because our clients have all stayed on and new ones have come in great. We specialize in helping people change. And if the pandemic has taught us anything, it is all about change. And most people don’t like and don’t know how to do change. And the vacuum that’s coming out of this is they’re not quite sure what the new normal is and culture is what is the essence of who we are. But we’re not quite sure if the old will work in the new.
So it’s a perfectly interesting time for us to lend a hand to help people do what they know they have to but aren’t quite sure how to. And I often feel like a golf coach. They all want to play golf, but nobody knows how to swing the club. So that’s where we begin. But it’s a very interesting opportunity to focus.
And I love the idea of not always being out there searching, but letting people find you because of the reputation you’ve built, and the kinds of things that they need, and you can help them solve. So it’s an interesting mindset. I also like the idea that you’re not out there cold calling. It doesn’t sound like that. I can only say that LinkedIn, with all of its joy, has generated a ton of people who are taking that half hour on my signature and making appointments. And I’d say, what are we talking about? I want to do it so we can be partners. Partners on what? I have a hunch you have seen some of this as well.
Jessica Yarborough: Absolutely. And so what I would recommend doing is building stronger systems around that to protect your time and that is actually one of the keys to move up into expert level. It is to get those protective measures in place, a strong application process because people will take advantage of your time sometimes just to sell you something which is a very awkward situation to be in.
Andi Simon: I have a hunch we can talk more about those protective bridges and keep people from simply saying this would be nice, I’ll follow you. But I do think those are new things that have emerged in different ways and the times they are changing so it’s pretty cool times. Some last thoughts and if listeners would like to reach you or to engage with you, how could they do that and any wisdom you would like them to remember?
Jessica Yarborough: You can reach me at Jessicayarborough.com. I’m also very active on LinkedIn. I’m sure you’ll provide some links in the show notes. So feel free to send a connection message and just let me know you heard me on the show. And I’m happy to accept.
Just some parting words: if you’re someone that knows you have brilliance and a gift to give the world, whether you’re in your corporate job, or whether you’re an entrepreneur, definitely lean into that and know that it is possible for you to achieve whatever it is you dream up. You have to take action on it. You have to walk through the proverbial fire. But I promise you that the freedom that you want is waiting for you on the other side.
Andi Simon: And you don’t have to go on a journey for four years wandering around the world. I encourage you to do that, but if not, think of this as your journey. Right?
Jessica Yarborough: Absolutely. In fact, what I tell people, and I recommend this for men or women, if you need to make a decision, do not survey everyone around. Go rent a cabin in the woods, go rent wherever it may be, an apartment on the beach, take an Airbnb and take a few days to release it and be with yourself and your inner thoughts. And the answer that you’re seeking will reveal itself.
Andi Simon: I’m going to emphasize that because the brain is this wonderful critter. And if you put enough stuff into it, it begins to sort it all out. And some good nights of sleep, some good walks on the beach, just quiet time. The quiet mind is amazing at what it puts together. And all of a sudden you have that epiphany. Someone will say something, and you’ll go, that’s just what I’ve been thinking. And so I love your smile, because I think that’s exactly how you had your discovery as well, isn’t it?
Jessica Yarborough: Yes, like Ram Dass says, “the quieter you become, the more you can hear.”
Andi Simon: That’s correct. And I loved it. So I’ve had Jessica Yarborough here today. What a delightful conversation. And I hope you, our listeners and our viewers, have picked up a really important part of who you are, and how to turn yourself from being on the bottom of a ladder to hunting for good clients to off-set. Having built a reputation that clients are coming to you because you know how to position yourself, tell the right messaging, and really understand how you become the authority on the right solution for them. And they’re looking for you. Can we find you? And so it’s a really important time to do this.
I thank all of you who come. Remember, we’ve been ranked in the top 5% of global podcasts, which sort of blows my mind. But that’s because all of you out there who come and listen and watch. I think the most exciting part though, is that you send us emails, at info@ andisimon.com with all the kinds of folks you’d like to hear. And we try to find them and bring them to you.
I hope you’ve enjoyed Jessica as much as I have today. And I do think that she’s got a five step process. There’s nothing in the process that will help you duplicate what she’s saying. So it isn’t ad hoc, and it isn’t to sit in a room and make it up the process of discovery, of reimagining and of delivery. The action steps are extremely important. So I think you’re going to enjoy this new journey.
And on that note, I’m going to urge you to read my books: Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business — it’s almost a year old and it’s doing extremely well on Amazon and a best seller — and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is an award winning book about how a little anthropology can help your business grow. It’s not quite what Jessica’s talking about, but it has a little bit in there. And the case studies are going to show you how anything can help you see things through a fresh lens like today will help you have that aha moment and expand. So it’s time to expand your vision. So we’re gonna say goodbye. And thank you very much for coming today.
Learn how to become the trailblazing leader you were meant to be! Shellye Archambeau is an amazing woman. I was honored to interview her back in 2020 and was so impressed with what she had to say that I wanted to share her wisdom with you again. An experienced CEO and Board Director with a formidable track record of building brands and high performance teams, Shellye has dynamically led technology-focused organizations for over 30 years. Her secret? “You just need a lot of personal belief in your own skills and a vision of yourself as a leader.” As I always say, if you can see it, you can be it! And Shellye helps us all see it. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here A highly accomplished leader with an unassailable belief in herself Yes, Shellye has had an illustrious career with a lot of firsts. But as she will tell you, being the first African American woman to achieve what she has was never easy. She broke through, forged ahead, and now inspires others to do the same. Her book, Unapologetically Ambitious: Take Risks, Break Barriers, and Create Success on Your Own Terms, powerfully tackles how you too can break through your own hurdles, road blocks and glass ceilings that might be holding you back. Want to surge ahead but not sure how? Listen in as Shellye tells us!
Meet Shellye Archambeau The former CEO of MetricStream, a GRC company based in Palo Alto, CA, Shellye Archambeau has held executive positions at numerous major companies, including a 15-year career at IBM where she became the first African American woman to gain an international assignment. As well as being a guest lecturer at her alma mater, the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, Shellye is an author and a regular contributor for Xconomy. She currently serves on the boards of Verizon, Nordstrom, Roper Technologies and Okta, and is also a strategic advisor to the Royal Bank of Canada, Capital Markets Group and Forbes Ignite. You can contact Shellye on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and her website. You can also email her at shellye@shellye.com.
To learn more about how to be a better, more accomplished leader, check out these 3 podcasts: * Sara Canaday—Can You See The Gaps That Are Holding You Back From Being A Great Leader? * Dr. Srikumar Rao—Why You Must Undergo Personal Transformation Before You Can Become An Effective Leader * Jennifer Kluge—Meet The Leader To Build Your Business Into One Of The Best And Brightest
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon, your host, and it’s always such a pleasure and a privilege to have you join us for our podcast. Remember, my job is to help you get off the brink. And today, it’s a very important time for us to step back and rethink who we are, where we’re going, and really to begin to plan the next phase in our own lives, our careers. It’s a time of change.
And so I have with us today a wonderful woman that I want to share with you. Shellye Archambeau is a marvelous woman. I’ll tell you about her in a moment. But she’s got a message that I think is important for us to understand and begin to figure out how to apply to our own careers and our own lives. It’s a time to rethink what matters, and it’s a good time to hear from Shellye.
So a little bit about Shellye and why I have her here. She’s a businesswoman and former CEO of Metrics Stream. She was an executive at IBM and she had a 15 year career there. She was the first African American woman at the company to be sent on assignment internationally. She’s a guest lecturer for the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, her alma mater. She’s a writer, a co-author of the book Marketing That Works, and she has been rated one of the top 25 brick and mortar executives by Internet World.
She’s received numerous awards throughout her career. In 2014, she was named one of the 46 most important African Americans in technology. The year before, she was number two on the list of the 25 most influential American African Americans in technology. This is just a long list of accolades and accomplishments, and that’s why it’s so exciting to have Shellye with us today. Shellye has a new book called Unapologetically Ambitious. And she’s going to tell you more about its title, but also about what she hopes for you to learn from her own journey. Shellye, thanks for joining me today.
Shellye Archambeau: Oh, thanks so much for having me, Andi. I’ve been so excited and looking forward to this.
Andi Simon: Can I share with everybody that it’s your birthday?
Shellye Archambeau: Sure. I’m spending it with all of you.
Andi SImon: All your best friends. You didn’t know you had so many new best friends.
Shellye Archambeau: That’s right.
Andi Simon: But it is a special day for me because I was honored to meet you and I’m so excited to share with you. Please tell the audience about your own journey, because I think it’s an important one for them to understand how we get to unapologetically ambitious. Please.
Shellye Archambeau: Well, thank you very much. I really do appreciate it. So my journey, I actually have to start pretty young to really share the foundation that represents who I ultimately became. So I grew up the oldest in a family of four. My father moved around a lot as he built his own career and job, and we found ourselves moving from Philadelphia, which was an extremely diverse place, to California, a suburb way outside of LA, where I was the only black girl in my class, but I think it was actually in the whole school. And given that it was the 60s, you know, everything was just charged. You had the civil rights movement, you had everything going on during the Vietnam War. You had feminism rising. I mean it was just a very charged-up environment.
And here I am, a little girl going into first grade. We actually moved over Christmas. So here I am going into first grade, had to walk to school every day and people treated me terribly. I don’t know any other way to describe it. I walked along a busy thoroughfare every day and people would yell awful things at me out their windows. You know, kids would physically bully me. I got beat up by classmates. Meaning it was not a good situation.
So it taught me very early in my life that the odds were just not in my favor. So it caused me, first, to actually really close in as a kid. Fortunately, I had good parents and had a couple of teachers that really made a difference. And it became incumbent for me to really become intentional about what I did, really as protecting myself. So I learned early that if I wanted to do something, I needed to actually figure out how I could make it happen because it wasn’t just going to happen for me. And that same approach I actually have taken all through my career.
So I started early. I said, All right, what do I want, what do I need to do? And I was fortunate; in high school, I had a guidance counselor who asked me, Shellye, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to go to college so I can get a good job. And she said, Okay, well, what do you want to do in your job? And I said, I’m not sure. And she said, What do you like to do? And I loved running clubs. I was president of American Field Service and National Honor Society, and I ran the French club. All these things. I love running clubs.
And she said, Well, running a business is just like running a club. Get people together, right? What did I know? I said, Okay, great. That’s what I’m going to do. So I decided, no problem. So literally, I decided. I was like a junior in high school. I decided that I’m going to go run a business.
Andi Simon: I love your story. Keep telling me.
Shellye Archambeau: So anyway. But again, back to, I know the odds are not in my favor. And so when I did the research, and back then it wasn’t easy, research. Now you just click a few keys. Back then, it was going to the library looking at magazines. Well, I didn’t see anybody who looked like me running a business anywhere. So I said, All right, fine. How do I improve my odds to get this? How do I make this happen?
So I said, All right, I need to go to the top business school. And so I picked Wharton because Wharton had an undergraduate program. And I figured if I do Wharton undergrad, then I won’t have to go to grad school. So I can save a couple of years and a couple hundred thousand dollars. This is great. So the only school I applied to, I said, please, literally at the bottom of my application, said, Please take me. I don’t want to go anywhere else. I’m not applying anywhere else.
Now I’m not completely stupid. I applied early so that if they said no, I could do a backup, but I literally didn’t apply anywhere else. That’s the only place I wanted to go. And I had good grades. But anyway, I went to Wharton and then, you know, I pay attention, I listen, I do homework. And I was told, If you join industries that are growing and companies that are growing, there are more opportunities for personal growth. Great. So I looked around at technology, which was the growing industry. Good news? It still is. Yeah. And I picked IBM. So I said, I’m going to go off and be CEO of IBM. That was it.
Andi Simon: Your humility and kindness? Your aspirations were fabulous.
Shellye Archambeau: Exactly. It was just too funny. So anyway, so I did. And I’ll be candid. I actually spent 14 years at IBM. I got to the point where there wasn’t anyone who looked like me hiring me in the company. My boss, John Joyce, reported to Lou Gerstner, the CEO, who was running a multibillion dollar division, actually over in Asia Pacific. So I did well. But it wasn’t clear to me, due to a bunch of things that went on, that I was actually going to ultimately become CEO of IBM and that was still my goal.
So I said, You know what? Let me take what I’ve learned and let me go build something. Silicon Valley was hot. This is the late 90s. I said, All right, but I did my homework, which, by the way, doesn’t stop when you’re not in school. I did my homework because again, if you’re going to put a plan in place and you want to increase your odds, you have to figure out what you’re going up against. And a lot of people that have left big companies to go run small companies or growing companies stumble a time or two because it’s so different.
Well, as a woman of color, I don’t have that. I don’t have that luxury. I don’t know that I’ll get multiple strikes at the bat. So as a result, I said, All right, let me go get a seat at the table. Understand what’s so different and then go get my job. And in essence, that’s what I did, Andrea, and ultimately became CEO of the company that’s now Metrix Dream. I ran it for over 14 years, became a global industry leader in governance, risk and compliance. There were 1200 employees. And now I serve on corporate boards like Verizon and Nordstrom and Roper and Okta and advise companies like the Royal Bank of Canada and some small startups and poach some CEOs and try to make a difference in the world.
Andi Simon: Wow. It sounds like making a difference in the world and making a difference in your own life. They are closely connected.
Shellye Archambeau: They are. They are.
Andi Simon: My second book is called Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. And for those of you who are listening, in it I offer 11 business women’s stories, including my own. But Shellye’s story is exactly the kind of hurdles women have to hurdle over and the way in which you can, in fact, prepare yourself for the hurdles. And this is not glass ceiling stuff. It’s not about smashing that. Forget the ceiling.This is about finding ways to really make a difference globally, locally, but in yourself at the same time.
While it’s exciting, you’ve written a couple of books, but this new one is extremely important to you, both as a way of sharing what you’ve learned with others, but also how it came together. Would you share it with our listeners, please?
Shellye Archambeau: Absolutely. So I’ve always tried to be accessible, and what that means is, I actually respond. You send me an email, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, whatever, I respond. Now it takes a lot of time, but the reason I do it is, I want people to see that I’m a real person. If you can touch me, then you can be me. And that’s why I’ve always put the time in to do it.
But what was happening was, I was moving forward in my career. I could respond, but I couldn’t meet with all the people that wanted to meet or talk one on one with all the people that wanted to talk to me. So I said, You know, one day I’m going to write this down. I’m going to share the “what made Shellye, Shellye,” the strategies, the lessons, all those things, as soon as I get into phase two.
So sure enough, when I passed the baton, I said, Now’s the time. And I wrote the book because the book is full of strategies and approaches and tools to help people achieve their aspirations, both professionally and personally. I talk about being intentional. I talk about, honestly, everything, personal and professional. There is a lot of stuff in there. What worked? What didn’t work? Because what I’ve learned is, ambition and hard work alone are not enough. And we’re not told that. What we’re told is, work hard and it’ll happen. And no. I hate to burst bubbles. It’s not how it works.
Andi Simon: Oh, well, tell us, how does it work? And I’ll tell you why in a moment, because it may not even work with what works. But, you know, let’s finish that hard work and ambition aren’t enough. What else do we need?
Shellye Archambeau: That’s right. So we need to understand the power of being intentional. So talk about really how to be intentional, how to set the goal, the objectives, whatever it is. And then first, you set it. Some people set goals and some people put plans in place to achieve the goals. But very few people make decisions every day. Yes. Be consistent with those plans. And so every day comes along but the goal is never achieved. And they wake up and, you know, they’re in their late 30s, they’re in their 40s, and they’re like, Gosh, I’m just not where I thought I would be.
And so the book is trying to help them get back on track, or if they’re just starting out in their career, help them get on track and stay on track, versus, you know, not because so much of the everyday decisions drives what happens. So being intentional, deciding what do I want, how do I make it true? Because that’s how I’ve looked at things.You know, when I set out to be a CEO of IBM I said, All right, I want to be CEO of IBM. So what has to be true? And then you do the work to say, Well, what did CEOs do?
So when I started out my career with IBM coming out of Wharton, I started out in sales. Now, think about this, Andrea. My peers are going off to be investment bankers and Procter & Gamble project managers and going to international finance and, because it’s Wharton and you come out and that’s what you do. And they’re looking at me like, You’re going to go be a sales person? I mean, what exactly? The reason is, every single person at IBM started out in sales. So that was the path.
You know, believe me, you go and you look for where the path is, where’s the current. Because if you can get on the current and then paddle hard while you’re on the current, you can really move forward. If you’re not on the current, you can paddle hard, but you’re not keeping up with the people who are paddling hard on the current. So look to see where the current is. And organizations have their own unique culture and currents.
Andi Simon: They absolutely do. So one size fits nowhere. You really need to know what you want to be, where and how to paddle along there. But I think that’s so important for the listener is that Shellye is onto something that we use and talk about a great deal when changing an organization, but an individual as well. In fact, I’m doing a leadership academy and we’re talking about this. You need to visualize where you want to be because when you visualize it, your brain begins to create a story, literally. It’s creating a new movie set right now.
Once you get that visualization and I don’t say this lightly, you need to almost backward plan it so that way you know that each day you’re moving towards that story as if you’re writing part of a storyboard. Don’t make it sound simple or easy. You have to live your way to that destination and I don’t even like to call it a goal. It’s a visualization of who you are and how you are going to be in life and then you can begin to live there. Does that make sense in terms of what you’re saying?
Shellye Archambeau: Absolutely. And that’s exactly what I talk about, Andrea. for instance, I had decided that ideally I painted my ideal picture of what I wanted, and my ideal picture was, Yes, I work towards becoming a CEO, but I also wanted to get married. I wanted to have kids and I wanted to have kids early. My parents were young parents and I liked that. I said, You know what, I’d like to be young when I have my kids. So, what that meant for me is, I didn’t date anybody beyond the point where I could imagine myself being married to them. I wouldn’t even go out with people that I couldn’t imagine myself being married to. So it’s crazy. I mean, when I say it was crazy. You know, I would go out once or twice and I wouldn’t again. They would say, “What’s wrong?” I’m like, “Nothing’s wrong.” “Well, I thought you had fun.” “I had a great time.” There was no way I could tell them, but I can’t marry you because they would have said “What? Did I ask you to marry me?”
But I felt if I dated people that I couldn’t imagine myself married to, that I might miss people who came along that I could imagine myself being married to. And again, other people didn’t do that with me. It was crazy. So but yes, I did get married early and I did have my kids early and I was married for almost 35 years before my husband passed. So it worked. So yes, I completely believe that.
And that’s, that’s the whole point about being intentional. Figure out the goal. What needs to be true for that goal to happen and then put plans in place to make it true. And then live consistent with that so that you open yourself up. You know, people talk about luck and I totally believe in luck. But I do believe that you can make yourself more lucky by having the right skills, the right experience, the right openness when opportunity comes along.
Andi SImon: Now, there’s something here to also emphasize, and that’s that we decide with the heart and the eyes and then the brain comes in with a logic or reasoning about it, and then we act. So I tell people in my podcast and everything else, you need to see it and feel it. And don’t underestimate the power of the gut. There are lots of nerves from the brain to the gut. How does it feel? And that’s just what you’re expressing here, because luck is a matter of seeing things fly by and feeling, How they can come together to do something that’s in the story that you’re carrying. And I don’t want to underestimate that you began to feel things that could work and disregard things that didn’t. Those guys weren’t going to work. But your husband did work really well and you felt it. And I don’t want to underestimate you. I want to emphasize: trust your feelings. They do work, don’t they?
Shellye Archambeau: They do. They do. But it’s hard. And, even for me, when I first got engaged to my husband, I don’t want to say no one was in my court. Grudgingly, people were, but very few. I had lots of lots of detractors on this. And it would have been so easy just to have caved. But I knew he was right for me. And he was about something.
Andi Simon: There’s this whole world of others helping women, helping women in particular, but men as well. Were there mentors in your career path that were important for us to know about as a way of building helpers? We, my husband and I, started something called the Simon Initiative for Entrepreneurship at Washington University in Saint Louis to help particularly women, but men and women become entrepreneurs. And they need role models and they need so much help. We wanted to do more than mentor one or two, but to begin to show them a way. I have a hunch mentors have been important in your career as well, am I right?
Shellye Archambeau: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mentors were very important to me. That’s all part of listening and learning, etcetera. And probably the biggest thing I learned was that it isn’t one mentor, it’s many mentors as far as I was concerned. The more the better because they all bring unique and different perspectives. And yes, there were absolutely mentors that played huge roles in my career.
Andi Simon: How did you find them?
Shellye Archambeau: Interesting you should ask. So what I also learned early on is that if you asked people to be your mentor, a lot of times visually, literally, you could sit and say, Shellye, would you be my mentor? And people would like, lean back, I mean literally create distance in space. Eyes would get big and wide. And so what happens? Why are they doing that? It’s not you. It’s, they’re sitting there and all they’re thinking about is time commitment. Because people that you want to be your mentor, they don’t have time. So they therefore tend to say no. They’ll do it in a polite way sometimes. Sometimes I’ll just be direct. But they say no. So I learned not to ask. I just began treating them as mentors. I call it I just adopted them. Ultimately, what I found is if I adopted people and then I did well and I was building that relationship, that ultimately they would claim me. So I tell people, don’t ask, just start treating them that way.
Andi Simon: But there’s also the sense of your value. Self-value is important here because what you’re describing is a person—yourself—who had a mirror that said, I’m of value, I just need to find my path to demonstrate it and a way of engaging others to help me along that path without imposing upon them respectfully.
Shellye Archambeau: Ah right. Because, you know, it sounds like the way you’re describing it, sounds like, Okay, here’s Shellye, nice and confident. She’s got her plan. She’s executing her plan, the whole bit. And what I have to tell you is, I had a plan. Growing up in our house, we lived in the Northeast, the temperature in our house never got above 68. Now it never got above 68, it was definitely below 68. Often it never got above 68 degrees. And whenever I talked about how cold it was in the house, you know, my parents, my mom would always say, Well, do you want to go to college? Your whole thing was trade offs, because we didn’t have a lot of excess money for anything.
And I finally said, How much money do I need to earn to keep the temperature at 72 degrees? So I was very motivated to have a career, to be successful, to be able to have a warm home, you know, the whole bit. That’s what motivated me. But frankly, I wasn’t that confident person that I sound like now.
Andi Simon: Well, that’s humbling to know.
Shellye Archambeau: I had a lot of imposter syndrome. Remember how I grew up and the challenges. So I knew what the world was like, not in my corner here, but you can overcome those things. And I talk about that in the book because we aren’t raised like, I got this, right? I can say that now that I’m 58 years old but couldn’t say it then.
So there are things that you can do. One of my biggest pieces of advice on how to help yourself fake it til you make it, because that’s honestly what I believe. It’s like, you put on this role to have cheerleaders in your lives. You have people around you that tell you how good you are, how confident you are, that remind you when the world is telling you otherwise that you are still the person you were before. That you think it’s so important because we live in a world that is so judgmental, mean, and where nobody is perfect. Where nobody is skinny enough, healthy enough, working enough, making enough money, going on the best vacations, wearing all the right clothes, having all the right friends, being at the right parties. I mean, all these things that we see that we feel judged about. Of course, everybody feels totally inept. So you have to have people around you that say, Hey, no, no, you’re great, you’re great. And we’ll also, when you need it, give you a kick in the butt.
Andi Simon: I’m curious. My husband has been my kick in the butt, hug you tight, always the anchor and the push along. I don’t think I would have finished my PhD if he refused to allow me to be an ABD: All But Degree. And there were many nights he and I were reading that dissertation closing our eyes, but never giving up. And he doesn’t know either. And those are our moments that are important to who we are because somebody else mattered that we achieved what we were pursuing, not for their sake, but for together, our sake. I have a hunch your husband did the same.
Shellye Archambeau: He did. He was definitely my biggest cheerleader.
Andi Simon: And after that, didn’t need much more than that. Because there was always the belief that who I thought I could be, he did as well. And so we overcame a bunch of hurdles along the way. I was an executive at a bank, and I went to board meetings with 49 men and me. You didn’t say much and I learned not to say much. I was there to do, but not to say. It was interesting times.
We’re just about ready to wrap. It’s been absolutely wonderful speaking with Shellye. I think her life journey and her wisdom has been so important to our listeners, men and women, both because I think both are changing. And I do think that as I wrote my book, the women in there had partners or men in their lives. Some had none who were changing as the women were changing. It’s not a solo event. It’s a real interesting cultural transformation going on here. Shellye, a couple of things you don’t want our listeners to forget. The ending is always so important. One or two or three things that are really important for their lives.
Shellye Archambeau: Certainly. So first, be intentional. Decide what you want and then put a plan in place to go get it.
Two, have cheerleaders. We talked about it. It’s really important.
And three, I firmly believe if you don’t tell the universe what you want, the universe can’t help you. So ask for what you want and what you need and give people a chance to help. That is very important me. I’m just open about it. And, if you need a hand, ask. They can say no and then you make them help you anyhow. Those mentors didn’t even know they were being so helpful and in the end, they were ready to take it and claim it.
It’s been a pleasure. Pre-order my book on Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble.com. You can go to your local bookstore or call them up and support them by pre-ordering it there. And let me just make a plea as a new author, pre-orders are so important. So if you felt you got a little value from our conversation, please give it a pre-order. There’s a whole lot more in the book.
Andi Simon: And then I’ll push. Once you’ve read the book, go review it. Amazon loves reviews and people don’t realize that that paragraph makes a big difference in your Amazon rankings. And everything is rankings today, so there’s something there. But I also think that Shellye said she answers all those emails. I’m not sure if she needs more emails, but I do think she needs your echos because I do think that sharing is good if it’s a two-way. The gift of giving also comes back to add more value over time. And it’s a time for her now to think of her next purpose. What comes next? And it’s a very exciting time for her. So it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for joining me.
Shellye Archambeau: Thank you very much and absolutely enjoyed it.
Andi Simon: Now, for all of you who come, I can’t thank you enough. Your emails are extremely important for me as well: info@simonassociates.net. And it’s always fun to hear from you. You bring me wonderful ideas. So Shellye came to me and I think that this is a time for us to be intentional about where we’re going and see the opportunities. I can only tell you that you decide with your heart. So if it feels right, go for it. Worst case is you’ll make a left or right turn. Think of your life as a Google map. Maybe you don’t have the destination clear, but you need some stops along the way. So small wins. We’re going and that’s what we love to do. So have a great day. Please stay safe. Stay healthy and enjoy life. Bye bye now.
Hear how to keep your seat at your own table that you build for yourself What I love about my guest today, Nori Jabba, is that when she hit a brick wall—in her case, a series of job rejections—she pivoted and wrote a book about the whole job-search process and dealing with mulltiple rejections, called Keeping Your Seat at the Table. Now she’s writing a second book but actually she’s not writing it, everybody else is writing it. It will be a compilation of other people’s stories about their journeys and their seats at the table. Want to contribute? Contact Nori on her website keepingyourseat.com. Listen and learn how to build your own table.
Watch and listen to our conversation here Nori’s three things you need to build your own table 1. Forget about getting that seat or keeping that seat. It’s really about keeping your own seat at your own table that you build for yourself.
2. You can’t do it alone. You’ve got to lean on others. Think about who’s at that table with you. Who’s at your table?
3. Believe in yourself. It’s really about believing in yourself and loving your voice, loving what you bring to the table and knowing that you add value
How to connect with Nori You can find Nori on LinkedIn and her website, and you can send her an email at norijabba@gmail.com norijabba@gmail.com.
To learn more about finding your purpose at work and in life, check these out: * Podcast: Smita Joshi—We Are All Works In Progress! Think Of It Like Karma And Diamonds * Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose * Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi, welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. And my job is to get you off the brink. What I like to do is bring you interesting people who are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Why is that important? Because your brain hates me, it doesn’t really want to see new things. It’s got a story stuck in there that only sees what conforms to it. So today we have to take you exploring, becoming an anthropologist, begin to step outside yourself and look in a new way.
So today I have Nori Jabba. Nori is a wonderful woman who’s coming with a new book to talk about. The name of the book is Keeping Your Seat at the Table. She’ll show you a copy of it in a moment. But Nori came to me through Kathryn Hall, who’s a wonderful publicist, and I just enjoy the guests she brings to my podcast because they’re all interesting people, men and women who are doing things exactly like we like to, in different ways. Nori, thank you for joining me today.
Nori Jabba: Thank you, Andi. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Andi Simon: Nori, I have a desire to hear about your story. You told me about it and I stopped reading bios because I think they’re helpful, but not necessarily capture the essence of who you are. But today is your story. So tell the listener or the viewer, who is Nori, what’s your journey been like, and how does it set up the tale that has gotten us to keeping your seat at the table? Please tell us your story.
Nori Jabba: So thank you, Andi, and it’s wonderful to be here today. So my story really began when I took six years off to have children, and I’d had a very successful career before that at a utility company as a senior real estate portfolio manager. And I took six years off and had three kids, and I was lucky enough to get a job after six years and went back to work. And then in 2012, that project went on hold.
So I decided to become a consultant and consulting was great. It gave me flexibility that I needed. And then after several years of consulting successfully in real estate development, I wanted to go back to work. I wanted to be on a team. I wanted the benefits and the structure that comes with being employed. And I’d had almost 30 years of experience. I’d won awards. I had a wonderfully professional resume and no one would hire me, no one.
And so I decided after so many rejections or non-responses that I was going to stop job hunting and start my own company. I’m from Silicon Valley and we start companies. That’s what we do. So I thought, no one will hire me, I’ll do my own thing and write a book about it. And so that was the birth of the book. And I have a liberal arts background. I love that you’re an anthropologist. I took a couple of anthropology courses in college and went to Grinnell College in Iowa and majored in English. So writing comes naturally to me.
And so I started writing the book. I joined an incubator program here in Silicon Valley to help me boost the company and hopefully get some seed funding for it. And during that process, we spent a whole lot of time focusing on purpose and drive and making sure we had what it takes to start a company because it is not an easy endeavor. And through that process, I realized I don’t really want to start a company, nor do I need to start a company. I want to be a writer. So that’s when I stopped with the company, tabled the concept, if you will, and wrote the book, and it was through the journey of writing the book that I actually did get the job that I was looking for. But I like to say that I got my seat back at the table as well, because what I learned through the process is that the table and your seat at the table is much, much more than just a job and success.
Andi Simon:Now, when you got the job back, was it in the same career or a different career?
Nori Jabba: It was a slight pivot, so it was within the umbrella of community development, but it was in affordable housing, strictly. My background is in real estate development for commercial and residential, but not property management, not affordable housing. Specifically, I had worked on multiple affordable housing projects, but this was just affordable housing. So yeah, it was a pivot. And during the pandemic.
Andi Simon: Well, the reason I asked is that in some ways we need a context for your own exploration in your own journey, and I love the fact that it was in urban and community development. You spend time abroad doing this. You’re a very successful woman who also found a wall and jumped over the wall. You know, we can talk about glass ceilings, but sometimes brick walls, and we don’t quite know what you do to do what?
But in many ways, it’s them who are trying to build their talent and begin to do something intentional. But why am I not a great fit for that talent? So as you finally moved along, we’ll talk about the book in a moment. You got that job and share with us a little bit about the journey to get it, because I have a hunch you stopped selling it the way you used to and you found other ways of getting inside. What was the trick?
Nori Jabba: So I wasn’t looking anymore. I had resigned myself to just continuing consulting, to give myself time to write the book and research the book. So the book was really the driver. And by not needing the job, by not being desperate is not the right word. I wasn’t as hungry. I had that self confidence that I was content and happy with what I was doing and I didn’t need the job in order to be fulfilled, and I think that confidence comes through. You know, I was standing taller. I was feeling good about myself. I knew that I was adding value as a consultant, and it was one of my clients that hired me full time. And how I presented myself with that confidence I think is so important.
So in my journey, I reached out to one of the managers of a company that rejected me. I came in second. I came in second so many times I can’t even tell you. And I asked her, would you have coffee with me? I’m writing a book and I’d love to talk to you about this. And I couldn’t believe she said yes, but she said yes. And I drove 60 miles to have coffee with this woman. And, you know, things happen for a reason, because if I had had to drive 60 miles every day to go to a job, it would have done me in any way.
So in retrospect, I’m really glad I didn’t get that job, but had a wonderful discussion with this woman who had never been asked, Why is it so hard for middle-aged women to get hired? And she fortunately was a middle-aged woman because otherwise I wouldn’t have wanted to listen to her had she been in her 20s. But, one of the things she told me was so important and it is that women, older women and older men, too, sometimes stop listening. And when you talk about being a good fit in a company, a good fit means you’re going to listen, and what was coming across in my job interviews was that I had lots of value to add, but that I wasn’t going to receive. I wasn’t going to listen. Maybe it did and it wasn’t lost on me.
The irony of the moment was because when she told me that I didn’t want to listen to her, I slumped back in my chair and thought, I’m doing exactly what she says women my age do. So I sat up straight and leaned in and decided, I’m going to hear what she has to say. I’m really going to listen. And from then on, I became a better listener. And the other thing she told me that was so valuable was that older workers, and men and women are dismissive of younger workers, and the workplace is filled with young people and they have so much value to add.
But if you go in there, “I have 30 years of experience, you got to listen to me, that’s a stupid idea,” or whatever we say. We can be dismissive of these young people and the value that they add. So I have three daughters. I have from the time they were in preschool, I tried to listen and learn from them every day, something new and taught them to teach and listen to others. And I really feel like this woman told me to listen to young people. My kids teach me new things every day.
But what’s ironic now and such a wonderful part of this story is that I now have a new job. It’s a better fit for me than the one that I got while writing the book. And my boss is decades younger than me. She could in fact be my daughter and I’m not sure I would have been able to accept that had I not done this, the journey and listen to this woman and others in the process of writing the book. So I embrace young people. I value them.
My boss is so smart and I learn from her every day and it’s a give and take. She learns from me, and I learn from her. But those two things that woman taught me really changed me. And I think it’s a big part of why I got my seat back at the table, is being able to listen at work and embrace other young adults.
Andi Simon: The listening part is very interesting because as you know, we have a story in our mind that guides what we hear. And the problem that you’re articulating is that you crafted this story about who you were and what the skills were you brought and why you would be a good fit in that company as part of their talent acquisition. The problem was, you couldn’t hear what they were saying because it was out of sync with what you were thinking, but they also couldn’t hear what you were saying because the story you were telling about your accomplishments didn’t fit exactly with their expectations or desires for what they were looking for in somebody who would be a comfortable fit in that team in some way. And I emphasize that because it wasn’t what you did. It was how the story came across. Am I right?
Nori Jabba: That’s exactly right.
Andi Simon: And listening and hearing are separate because you can try and listen. There’s a quote by some admiral that goes something like this: What you think you heard me say, was it what I meant? And it wasn’t what I said. I mean, because we just take the pieces apart, so it fits.
But your book is a very interesting effort to talk about what you’ve learned to share with others and in the process to help amplify the message so they don’t have as big a struggle to get a table as well as a seat at the table and to really begin to see what you went through in order to be transformed into a different woman. And I don’t think your journey is going to end because I think the message is, it will change again and it will change again. So your insights and your wisdom are very important. Tell us how the book came together and what are some of the key themes so that the listener understands why they should buy it and read it, but also what they can learn from it, because I think it’s really powerful.
Nori Jabba: And so the book really came together as part of the journey. You know, one of the big messages of the book is that we think of success as this line going up. We get a degree or a diploma and there’s a straight arrow up to your seat at the table and then you retire and have a pension or whatever. And what the book taught me, what I learned in the journey in writing it, is that it’s the journey that’s important. It’s not the seat at the table. And so it’s all about creating your own table of support, and your seat is just one seat at the table. But you need to create your own table with people that you invite to support you.
And the idea is that you have one for each chapter in the book, and there are eight chapters, so eight, at least eight seats at the table. You can have the biggest table on the planet and continue to invite people. And these people are your mentors, your coaches. They don’t even need to know that they have a seat. They just need to be important to you, people that influence you to get there. But the themes in the book are a play on words. I’m an English major. I love words. I love writing poetry, and I love playing with words.
So at the beginning of each chapter, I summarize each chapter in exactly 100 words. And this is a method that I learned from a friend of mine, Grant Faulkner, who runs NaNoWriMo, which is National Novel Writing Month, but he also publishes a book called The 100 Word Story. And so everybody who contributes to the book each year does exactly 100 word stories. So it’s a really fun process of thinking and summarizing. So in addition to the 100 word summary at the beginning of each chapter, each chapter is a play on words with the table.
So chapter one is flipping the table, and that’s identifying your purpose and distinguishing between purpose and legacy and what the difference is and why they’re both important. Chapter two is clearing the table, and that’s getting rid of everything that’s holding you back. Clearing the clutter. Real clutter. In my case, it’s real clutter because I can’t get started when I’m surrounded by clutter. I’ve got to clean the house before I start writing or accomplishing whatever it is I want to do. But also what’s holding you back, not believing in yourself. And that is a really, really important takeaway is, you have to believe in yourself and have that self confidence.
The next chapter is reinforcing the table, and that’s about building strength in body, mind and spirit. And you can’t have a seat at the table if the table is going to tip over or isn’t strong enough. So it’s about strength. And the next one is sitting at the head of the table, and that’s about feeling empowered and feeling just really confident and how to get that back and looking at how you show up and getting rid of that anxiety about, Did I say the right thing? Did I do the right thing? And I look, do I look right? It’s all about how you show up and just feeling really good about yourself.
The next one is not getting pulled under the table. And what I realized was that a big reason that I lost my seat at the table was because I had all of these things weighing so heavily in my life. And in my case, it was my aging parents, my mom in particular, and I was a consultant and I had a big client and I wasn’t there for my client. I couldn’t do it because I had to downsize my mom and move her in her time of crisis and literally drop everything. And that can happen if you’re an employee. It’s even harder because how much time can you take off to deal with that? But it’s about facing the future, facing those fears and in my case, my mom and dealing with her. It was a volcano ready to erupt. I knew I was going to have to face it at some time and I just thought, oh, I’ll deal with it when I get there. So this chapter is about planning and preparing, and it’s also about aging and looking at ourselves as we age and doing it, figuring out a plan on how we want to age and how to get there gracefully and strongly.
And the next is not tabling yourself. And that’s about being relevant and listening, as I pointed out, and embracing young people. But in British English, because I used to live in England, it’s also about tabling yourself straight away. They say it in the opposite way, so I cover that in the book in case it makes it to the UK, which I hope it does and leveraging what you bring to the table is the next chapter, and that’s about owning your experience. So, as an older woman, I am taught to take those dates off my resume. Don’t you dare let somebody know you graduated in the 1980s or 90s. I call BS on that. I say, You own it. You put your chin up and stand tall and you own it. But you have to do it with balance and vulnerability and a give and take. So that’s what that chapter is about.
And then the last one is leaning on the table. And I credit Sheryl Sandberg with Lean In. I read her book and have a side story on that because I had a client the next day that was expecting a proposal. I read Sheryl’s book the night before, and as an experiment I took my price that I was going to submit and I doubled it because Cheryl told me to. And guess what? I thought the worst that can happen is they say no or we negotiate down like, Why don’t I do this all the time? They said yes, they didn’t even negotiate. So it was a really valuable experience in valuing myself. And not undervaluing myself. But my chapter here is about leaning on as well as leaning in because we can’t do it alone. So it’s about creating strategic partnerships at your table. And so that’s the book and the final word is, once you’ve done all that, you get up on the table and dance.
Andi Simon: The metaphor is very important, though. We have to see something. Remember, I started out by saying, I want you to see, feel and think about it before you can actually do it. And when you listen to it, Nori, put your book up there so we can see the cover. Perfect. It’s actually building a table that you’re sitting on with a bunch of folks who are going to be your teammates at this table.
I think that all of us trying to move into business or non-profits or communities are all navigating the challenges of rocky roads, trying to find our path. And I emphasize that because some people who are leaving to have children are going to have a rocky time as well. And those who are coming back aren’t quite sure how to re-enter. And the companies aren’t necessarily helpful on either stage, either giving you time for having kids and raising them or for thinking about how to prepare for the reentry.
So you’re ready for that reentry. And there’s no reason why they can’t align with you instead of abandoning you. You know, this is a really interesting piece to this or to help train you. I mean, you went through the self-discovery, sounds like through trial and error as opposed to having a mentor to begin with. And even a mentor wouldn’t necessarily be cool.
Nori Jabba: It was really about self-care because I was feeling my esteem slip and that’s a slippery slope that is not going to help you get a job if you’re not feeling good about yourself. So all of the rejections and non-responses would just be debilitating. So the book was really self-care to stop and try to understand what’s really going on here.
And I felt like I had this duty to myself and other women to really understand, is ageism real? Is it me? And the answer is yes, ageism is real, but it’s also me. We also have to stand back and take a look at ourselves and what we really bring to the table and how we’re presenting ourselves and listening and learning and being vulnerable. I love Brené Brown and the vulnerability book and her whole message about vulnerability is strength and you can’t grow without being vulnerable.
Andi Simon: Being in a consulting business myself, I’ve been in business for 22 years, and it’s a different experience because I was in corporate for 20 years and I was a professor for ten years. And they are all different experiences, truly different. You know, they’re like foreign countries to each other. And yet I knew I was an anthropologist. I wasn’t doing it, and people weren’t quite sure what that meant or how to capitalize on it. So they imposed upon me what they needed.
And my job was to manufacture the right answers and solutions to solve it and to thrive. I was EVP of a bank, SVP of another bank and an executive in healthcare systems. But I’m thinking about your stories because I remember at one point I had that epiphany that it really wasn’t about what I needed or did or how I could help. It was what they needed and how they saw me and where they put you at that table and what role they wanted you to play, including being the only woman at that table, which is a whole story unto itself.
The ageism thing, though, is extremely important because we’re living longer, growing older, and we’re beginning to work ourselves with senior living communities and try to begin to see elders as older adults, not as seniors, but with tremendous growth potential for them. Why not, and why not do so with some real important changes coming? When you were a consultant, though, apart from the fact that you weren’t necessarily happy, it sounds like you were very successful.
Nori Jabba: I loved consulting. I really did. I just wanted to have the benefits and be on a team truly, because when I was a consultant, I would have clients and I was on a team, but I really wasn’t. I was kind of the outsider and I missed that. I missed it. So I really wanted to have that camaraderie and go back to just having that everyday interaction with people.
You know how it works when you’re at work, you go to somebody’s office or cubicle and you have a side chat about something and they teach you something about Excel that you had no idea about. As a consultant, you don’t get those opportunities for those little bits of information and learning and connection. And so it was really about connection. And I had over 40 clients in my time as a consultant, and I still have the business. It’s just dormant at the moment. But I really did like it. I just wanted to go back to I wanted more. I want to do well. I was tired of billing at the end of the month and spending my weekends doing the administration for the business.
Andi Simon: I love what you said. On the other hand, when I left corporate, I was thrilled to launch my business. And I remember my PR firm that I hired. I said, I need a PR firm. Who am I? And they said, Well, you’re a corporate anthropologist that helps companies change. And I said, that’s exactly correct. And I haven’t deviated from that at all in 22 years.
But it was interesting that in some ways I had had enough of all of the complexity of the teamwork. You know, when you’re an executive, I had thousands of people and HR was my least favorite area because it was so complicated all the time. But this is so interesting, Nori, as you look forward, as you’re looking at your book and looking forward, you have some interesting ideas about how to engage people in their process of literal transformation. You want to share it with them because I think it’s a great way to take a book and make it come alive. What are your thoughts?
Nori Jabba: Yeah. So it’s really for all ages, even though the book is geared towards middle aged women because that’s what I am, it’s really for men too. And want to point out that men play such an important part of my journey. The book is dedicated to my dad. When you read the book and you see the partners at my table and who’s there, a lot of them are men, so it’s by no means just a book by women for women about women. It’s for men as well. And about men as well. But it’s really about those eight steps.
You know, it’s really about finding your purpose and figuring out what it is. And it doesn’t need to be the overall purpose of your reason you’re on the planet. It can just be your purpose right now. And as you know, you change in life and your purpose is going to change and that’s okay too. So if you can’t figure out your overarching purpose, I say pick a purpose that works for you right now. So it’s those eight steps of stepping back, building your confidence, being strong, figuring out how to stay strong for the rest of your life, embracing young and old and being relevant.
You know, don’t be that person, that woman, that man that said, how many times have I been in a meeting where some older person has said, I’m too old for that. I’m too old to learn that, I need a young person to do it. You know, it’s great that we embrace the young people to do it, but in my book, I really stress how important it is to learn those new skills and technologies or you’re going to be left behind. And this is important for life skills, not just keeping your seat at the table at work or just to be relevant in your job.
The world is changing so fast with AI and technology that if you don’t keep up, you will be left behind. You know, my mom is in her late 80s now and she has a smartphone and so many seniors just can’t figure out how to use them. But I’m proud of my mom because she not only has a smartphone, she uses WhatsApp because WhatsApp is the best way to keep in touch with my twin sister who lives in Europe. And texting doesn’t work because you have to pay overseas costs and all of that. So we had to teach my mom how to use this app and she does it every day. So just keeping those skills up and not being afraid of learning the new technologies is so important and just staying relevant and empowering yourself and leaning on others and having those partnerships. So it’s really quite simple as those eight steps. And it applies to everybody at any age.
Andi Simon: I think this is wonderful, not a how-to book, but a “what I learned and want to share with you” book and I think the insights are relevant and timely. And regardless of what your age is, I do think that it is a journey and you need to be reflective about where I am, where I’m going? And also the fact that you got to keep growing. You need a growth mindset. You can’t get fixed and you don’t need an excuse. So it’s very, very powerful. What I wanted to talk about a little bit is what can other people do? You had mentioned they can write their stories. They can begin to explore. I love it when people send me their stories for my book or my blogs. They want to share them. What are you thinking about?
Nori Jabba: So I am writing a second book and actually I’m not writing it. Everybody else is writing it. I’m compiling a second book, which is other people’s stories about their journeys and their seats at the table. So I invite your listeners to go to my website, which is keepingyourseat.com and submit your story, or just contact me. We can have coffee, you can have a Zoom call. I want to hear your story because so many people have been through this and it’s so valuable to share our journeys.
Andi Simon: Well, I love that because this is a collaboration now. And what you’re going to find is that you are not alone. They are not either. And then the next book comes out as a joint effort of all of us to help each other celebrate our insights, our wisdoms, and where we’re going and how it can be really help you propel yourself in difficult times because nobody was there to say to you, you don’t have to be so structured, so frustrated. You know, you’re not the first person, but this is how you might get around it.
Nori Jabba: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I heard when I interviewed one woman who ran this organization called Nova Works, she told me that the average woman of age 50 has to submit 500 resumes before they land a job. 500. And don’t know if that’s an actual corroborated number, but it was enough to scare me. I’d probably submitted 150 and was completely debilitated. And she just kind of patted me on the shoulder and said, Honey, you have a long way to go, and that’s just not okay with me. So that is just not acceptable.
So I thought, we’ve got to change this. And so the book is a movement to try to change that. And I do think that HR directors and HR teams really need to focus on ageism and what they can do to be more inclusive and set some policies because ageism is alive and well and yes, we can do something on our part, but we also need corporations to embrace aging as well, and make it a positive, not a negative. It’s like, you know, having children is a negative. Why is it a negative? Don’t we want to build a healthy, happy next generation?
Andi Simon: We’re just about ready to wrap this up. 1 or 2 things you want to make sure that the listeners remember and the viewers can recall. And, you know, what’s your last thoughts to share?
Nori Jabba: So three things you need to build your own table. Forget about getting that seat or keeping that seat. It’s really about keeping your own seat at your own table that you build for yourself. Two: You can’t do it alone. You’ve got to lean on others. And so think about who’s at that table with you. Who’s at your table? I even have a mug that says, Who’s at your table? And then three: believe in yourself. It’s really about believing in yourself and loving your voice, loving what you bring to the table and knowing that you add value. And share your story with me. Go to keepingyourseat.com, please. I want to hear from you. And my book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble as well.
Andi Simon: Nori, it has been a pleasure talking to you. I will share with our listeners and our viewers the book, and this is a very exciting time for new books. Our book is called Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. I wrote it with Edie Fraser and Robyn Spizman, two extraordinary women. And I love sharing it because, like Nori, what I want to do is take these wisdoms and make them accessible to you to amplify the voices of these women, as well as to show you the path for you. So, Nori, as soon as it comes out in September, I’ll make sure you have a copy. I can’t wait.
Nori Jabba: I can’t wait to read it.
Andi Simon: This is a beautiful book and I love Maria Carluccio’s quote. She has seven children and runs a $1 billion company and does some fabulous things. Some of the quotes are wonderful. Christie Hefner’s in there and Lilly Ledbetter. I love Susan Healy, being at the top doesn’t mean having all the answers. It’s learning how to get those answers. And in some ways, your story is a bunch of wonderful stories just like that.
So our book comes out September 26th. Pre-orders are available now. But it is time for us to share our exploration book of writing. I love your idea of 100 words capturing the essence of it. It’s a really terrific story. I know for all of you who came today to join us, thank you. Share our stories with your friends and begin to tell us about what more you’d like. I get great emails from across the globe who love the podcast. Remember, we’re in the top 5% of podcasts globally, and that is no small feat because that’s because everybody who’s on it shares it and likes to listen. And I love to hear from you. So with that in mind, I am going to wish you a wonderful day. Nori, thank you so much for joining me.
Nori Jabba: Thank you, Andi.
Andi Simon: Goodbye now.
Learn how you can fight gender bias so women leaders can succeed
As you know, I do a lot of work around women leadership. The title of my second book is Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, and I have recently co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman a third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, due out September 26th. So I’m all about helping women in business succeed. My guest today, Jennifer McCollum, is the same, having dedicated the last 20 years of her career to helping leaders and teams and organizations fulfill their potential, particularly women leaders. She helps women find their passion and their purpose, and I’m thrilled to have her on today’s podcast. Her mission is to change the face of leadership by accelerating the advancement of women leaders. Mine too. Listen in, learn, and please share.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Nine key takeaways from our discussion today
1. Clarity is much more challenging for women than it is for men. It’s one of the biggest hurdles that women face. And by clarity, I mean, if I were to ask you, Look ahead one year, three years, five years…what does success look like for you in your life, in your role, in your environment?
2. Women tend to define success through the lens of others: my team’s success, my company’s success, my family’s success. As a woman, you need to develop the skill of creating clarity for you, your own future.
3. Jennifer’s new book, In Her Own Voice: A Woman’s Rise to CEO: Overcoming Hurdles to Change the Face of Leadership, takes 25 years of Linkage data and research and calculates what it will take to accelerate the advancement of women in terms of the unique challenges that women face on their path to leadership and how we can all support approaching gender equity in the workforce.
4. Gender bias has been internalized, so much so that we women may be preventing our own advancement, consciously or unconsciously.
5. We know that women and men ask for things equally. It could be money or title, but it also could be resources or flexibility or staff. But women tend to retreat when they’re told no. And we can learn a lot from our male counterparts who tend to go back in. So how do you make the ask, when do you make the ask?
6. All leaders need to be developed, but women need to understand the unique hurdles they face. We don’t need to fix the women. They’re fabulous leaders. We need to help them in overcoming the obstacles that exist to their advancement.
7. At the CEO level, we’ve just crossed the 10% barrier in terms of the number of CEOs who are women. But of those, only 1% are women of color.
8. The numbers still aren’t changing quickly enough. We have about 28% women in the executive leadership ranks and 26% in the leadership ranks, the VP level. But as you go down, director all the way to the manager level, we’re just not making enough progress at all.
9. All of us can do something. All of us may not be in positions of power and influence to be executive sponsors but all of us are in a position to be allies.
How to connect with Jennifer
You can reach out to Jennifer on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or the Linkage website, or send her an email at jenniferscherermccollum@gmail.com.
For a deeper dive into women and leadership, check out these 3 blogs: * Blog: What Can Women Do To Challenge Gender Stereotypes In The C-Suite? * Blog: How Can Women Overcome The Roadblocks To Building Their Businesses? * Blog: Best Tips And Tricks For Women To Work In Male-Dominated Industries
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi, welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. And as you know, my favorite listeners, our job is to help you get off the brink. How do we do that? We want you to see, feel and think in new ways and understand that change is painful. On the other hand, if you begin to get the kinds of tips and tricks to begin to see things in a new way, you go, Oh, that’s how it’s done. That’s how someone else did it. And I can as well.
So I have a wonderful guest with us today, Jennifer McCollum. Jennifer and I met through the Women Business Collaborative, and it’s a wonderful organization for women of all kinds and all companies to come and participate as we collaborate to propel women forward. But Jennifer is here today because I just love what she’s doing to help train and develop women so that they can become the best that they can be. So, Jennifer, thank you for being here today. I appreciate it.
Now, let me tell you about Jennifer and then she’s going to tell you about herself. And as you know, in our format, she does a much better job than I can. But here’s Jennifer. Jennifer grew up in an entrepreneurial home in Germany. And there’s a story there, I’m sure. And her unique childhood not only instilled in her grit and resourcefulness and an ironclad work ethic, but she describes herself as a hustler by 15 and a desire to help others, which I think is the important part here, to excel like she has to her full potential.
You know, someone in our past offers us an opportunity to do something in our future, and sometimes we’re not aware of it, but all of a sudden we go, Oh, I did that. Someone else can do a little bit more. She’s on a mission to help talented women rise higher and higher in positions of leadership. And on the other side of that, to help organizations understand how to enable them to do just that, to create the cultures where women can excel, thrive and together, men and women can really do better.
The winding road she’s traveled led to her current position as CEO of Linkage. Linkage is now part of the SHRM organization (Society for Human Resource Management) and together they have visions for how to take Linkage, quite frankly, to a new place. It’s really going to be exciting. She oversees the strategic direction and global operations of the leadership development firm. The mission is to change the face of leadership. It’s dedicated more than 35 years to advancing women and accelerating inclusion in leaders and organizations.
Jennifer is an acclaimed speaker, a consultant and author, and I love the fact that her book is coming out in November. So we’re going to time this so that you can see it. She’s going to show you a picture of it in her own voice. It’s got a really interesting story to it. And it’s a very important time for her to share where she is. And that’s what this whole podcast today is about.
My last little thought, because I sometimes forget this myself, she’s a wonderful mother of three children, all guys. And I say guys because they’re sort of grown up children and I have a happy husband and they love to travel. She loves to ski. And Jennifer and I have a lot in common. So today’s talk is going to be very collaborative. Jennifer, thank you for coming today.
Jennifer McCollum: It’s always very humbling to have someone else talk about you and introduce you. So I appreciate you.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, sometimes you say, Who is that she’s talking about and laugh sometimes because we haven’t heard of ourselves. It’s hard to get a mirror that looks at you and says, Oh, that’s who I am. Jennifer, it’s important for the audience to know more about you. That bio is lovely, but at the end of the day, who is Jennifer? Tell us about your journey and then how do we get to the next stage where you’re helping women? All kinds of different ways. Please, who’s Jennifer?
Jennifer McCollum: That’s such a big question. I have dedicated the last 20 years of my career to helping leaders and teams and organizations fulfill their potential. And there’s been a really special place in my purpose and my passion around helping women leaders. So even back, you know, 30 years ago, I was creating pro bono visioning webinars to help women leaders find their passion and find their purpose and as luck would have it, I ended up five years ago as the CEO of Linkage. And as you said, our mission is to change the face of leadership. A big chunk of our work is focused on accelerating the advancement of women leaders, but also helping all leaders become more inclusive and purposeful.
I can take you back a little bit further. I have 20, 22, 23 years in the leadership space. I run leadership businesses at publicly traded companies. Now, at Linkage, which was just sold to a wonderful organization called SHRM. Before that, I grew up at the Coca-Cola Company and traveled around the world working on the Olympics and the World Cups and sports marketing. And then I evolved my career into leadership at the Coca-Cola Company and beyond.
Andi Simon: People often ask about our own journeys. You know, I’m an anthropologist, but I’m also an entrepreneur, and I was a corporate executive. How do you know where you’re going? Early in those years, are we sampling? Have I found myself? People talk about imposter syndrome. As I said, I’ve always been an imposter. I was never quite sure I was competent or capable. Others saw me that way and I said, Oh, that’s interesting. How about yourself? Was there a plan to your journey or did you just sort of make it happen?
Jennifer McCollum: I love your use of the word sampling. I would even expand that into dabbling. So, you know, this was advice that was given to me early on in my career and if it’s helpful to others, this was a senior executive at Coca-Cola who said, “In your 20s, try a lot of things. Don’t worry about money, don’t worry about titles. Try and get a sense of what you’re good at and what you’re passionate about.”
So through my 20s, yes, I started in public relations and sports marketing and evolved into public affairs, but I knew in my 20s, somewhere around 26 or 28, that I was good at it, but it wasn’t fueling my passion or my purpose. So then the executive said, “Okay, in your 30s, really double down and take a lot of risks and figure out where you can apply your skills and your passion.” And it was in my 30s that I jumped ship from Coca-Cola to the world of the internet. And it was part of the first internet kind of boom and bust. And that gave me the confidence to then create my own consulting firm.
And so I became a consultant in the leadership space. Coca-Cola had trained me to do that, and that’s where I really started to find what drove me. And so I was working with leaders and teams all around the world, but really buoyed by Coca-Cola’s belief in me, and that was my launchpad to becoming a consultant in the leadership space. And then the executive said, “In your 40s, put your head down and work really hard. Make a lot of money so you can retire in your 50s.”
What that meant to me was actually doubling down on what my passion was. So throughout my 40s, I went back to the publicly traded world. I worked for multiple companies, running businesses and the leadership development space, and really then found that it actually wasn’t the designing and the delivering of the consulting as much as the management and the growing of the businesses designed to make the world’s leaders a better place. And I have to say, now in my 50s, it’s a beautiful decade to be. I feel so aligned to that purpose.
Andi Simon: Well, and part of what you’re sharing is that we can plan, but part of it is knowing ourselves. And I don’t think that’s inconsequential. It’s not the job. It’s really getting to know what makes us. You know, the good news is, you were very successful regardless of which of those jobs you were in. But now the question is, what’s my purpose? You know, what have I mastered? And how do I have the autonomy to go and do that in a way that gives me great pleasure. And I smile when I wake up every day. It’s pretty cool.
Jennifer McCollum: And you’re hitting something really important, and I’ll call that clarity. And sometimes that’s the discovery of purpose, discovery of strength, discovery of passion. Some of us are lucky enough to grow up knowing exactly what we want to do, exactly the contribution we want to make in the world. That actually isn’t the case for most of us.
And there’s this process and this is actually much more challenging for women than it is for men. It’s one of the biggest hurdles that women face. And by clarity, we mean, if I were to ask you, Look ahead one year, three years, five years…what does success look like for you in your life, in your role, in your environment?
Women tend to define that through the lens of others: my team’s success, my company’s success, my family’s success. And so that we call it the kind of the skill, the muscle of creating clarity for you, for your own future is something that I’ve worked really hard at from my 20s, which gave me the confidence to leave Coca-Cola all the way now into my 50s. And I do it very regularly.
Andi Simon: That point of clarity is so interesting because I always knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I spent 20 years in corporate in a very entrepreneurial fashion, and nobody quite knew what an anthropologist in business was supposed to do so I could play that one out all the time. And you found that people weren’t quite sure if I should have a PhD or not. But I began to think that I knew I wanted to be in my own business and after 9/11, I said, good timing. So that’s 22 years ago.
But like you, I knew who I was. I’m a creator, I’m an entrepreneur now. How do I do that in a way that can be very successful? And I always thought of it for our clients being the beneficiaries of who we are and what we can do. So that’s what we do, then what they need.
So it’s a really interesting story. You share now that you’re at a point that your book is very much of a cataclysmic moment. You know, it’s important. Books are important. You know, my third book is coming out in September. And every time I write a book, it’s less about the book than about what it can do to help others. And I have a hunch this new book is very full of wisdom that you want to share. And I would just love you to tell the story to our listeners about it because they will walk away saying, Oh, I gotta get that book. Tell me what’s in the book.
Jennifer McCollum: Well, and thank you for asking, and going back to the clarity. If you look back on the vision documents that I created all the way back into the early 2000s, it always says, I am an author, I am a speaker, I am on stages impacting thousands. And it is now finally the result of a lot of hard work and you’ve done multiple of these. This is my first book. This is the executive summary, In Her Own Voice: A Woman’s Rise to CEO: Overcoming Hurdles to Change the Face of Leadership. It’s actually coming out in November, so anyone can pre-order it.
But what I am so excited about for this book is, it takes 25 years of Linkage data and research and frameworks and experience on what it will take to accelerate the advancement of women. It puts it together with very personal stories, not only my stories, but other CEO and C-suite women, to help all of us, women and men, understand what are the unique challenges that women face on their path to leadership and how we can all support approaching gender equity in the workforce far faster than the World Economic Forum is predicting, somewhere around the 125 year mark.
Andi Simon: Well, 125 years is almost impossible to imagine since you and I want it to happen tomorrow. My question is always about why it’s so hard to see the opportunities. And it’s two sides. Part of it is the way women see themselves in others. And part of it is the way our society and our culture see men and women and their different roles. In the book, though, you’ve really begun to master to lay this out. Talk to me a little bit without giving away too much about the thinking behind it In Her Own Voice. The title itself is telling you a great deal, right?
Jennifer McCollum: So you framed it perfectly. There’s really two sides to this. One is what we have more control over as women leaders. So deepening our understanding not of the external bias that exists in the world. And we could talk a lot about that another time. And it’s real, but it’s really how that bias has been internalized and how we may be preventing our own advancement, consciously or unconsciously.
So just to give you a little sneak preview, Linkage has studied and we support it through coaching and assessment and development and our big Women in Leadership Conference. We support the individual woman leader and overcoming some of those hurdles. The top three are clarity, which is what we just talked about. The second one is proving your value, where women tend to give and say yes and volunteer to more and more and more. And we call it putting your head down and overthrowing the boat, hoping that someone will notice and they usually don’t. And then the third one is making the ask.
So we actually know that women and men ask for things equally. It could be money or title, but it also could be resources or flexibility or staff. But we know that women tend to retreat when they’re told no. And we can learn a lot from our male counterparts who tend to go back in. So how do you make the ask, when do you make the ask? So those are three of the seven or eight hurdles that we cover. The other side of this, which I love that you framed it this way, is what can organizations do? We actually call that the organizational surround. And we study these things. We know that there are very specific levers organizations need to pull.
The first is around their culture. Do women feel valued? Do they feel like they belong? The second one is around their talent systems. Is there equity in the talent systems, all the way from acquisition to pay to high potential selection to succession? The third one is what we call executive action and commitment. This is one of the lowest scoring ones and this is, are the executives truly committed to advancing women leaders? Are they doing more than saying the right things? Are they actually doing and modeling and sponsoring women or other underrepresented populations? And then the fourth one is the one that Linkage does a lot of work in, and that’s leadership development for women.
So again, we know that, you know, all leaders need to be developed, but women need to understand the unique hurdles they face and they need some, you know…we don’t need to fix the women. They’re fabulous leaders. We need to help them in overcoming the obstacles that exist to their advancement.
Andi Simon: You know, as an anthropologist and I also have three leadership academies for three different kinds of organizations, the questions are very profound and very important to me in the work that we do, as well as to my emerging leaders who are trying to understand all this. But I often find that people don’t know what to do. They say the words, they have good intentions, but then when the time comes for action, they go back to old habits. And we know so much about the neurosciences and the brain and the cognitive sciences, that the habits are very comfortable. And so they go to whatever they learned early, whatever happened to them that seemed to work okay.
And the idea of moving out into a foreign place where they’re uncomfortable, the amygdala hijacks the whole idea and says, That’s dangerous, go away. And so part of the work that we do is almost like theatrical performance. I said, We’re going to change. You used to play Macbeth, and I share this with you because the metaphor seems to be comfortable for people to get. And now you’re going to play Hamlet. And in Hamlet, the women get promoted and they get advanced. But you don’t have a script for it and you haven’t had any rehearsal time. And both of you need to play a different role in a different theater. That is life. And I share that with you because what I realized without rehearsal time, they don’t practice. They don’t know what it is they’re going to do. Have you found the same or do you have a different perspective on it?
Jennifer McCollum: Well, interestingly, I would actually use that kind of frame on both sides. So first, let’s talk about the women themselves. And yes, what is comfortable we can extract you from your workplace. We can develop and coach and assess and send you to very inspirational conferences and you will go back into the workplace if left to your own devices. It’s scary. It’s uncomfortable. How do you start to flex that new muscle?
And so in our very best, you know, clients and the very best scenarios, women are doing this through community, so they’re not doing it alone. And we will have, and I’ll give a big shout out to Disney as an example. Disney will send 100 to 150 women to our conference across their business units, but they bring them together and then they find ways to keep them together in communities so they’re supporting each other.
Andi Simon: Before you go on to the second, let me emphasize to the viewer or the listener that we’re monkeys. We model ourselves over watching others. And so that community isn’t inconsequential. Because if I think, This is what they want me to do and I don’t see anyone else doing it, I flee it. But if I watch someone else doing it, I can model it and bond over it. So those communities aren’t inconsequential. They’re essential. Does that make it consistent with what you’re saying?
Jennifer McCollum: I’ll go to my second point in a minute, but just based on that, I want to give you a really specific example this weekend. So it was the 4th of July weekend. I’m part of the Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coaches Organization. It means the world to me to be part of this. There were a couple hundred people in the group. About 150 of us gathered in Nashville just a few days ago. And this group is full of authors, thought leaders, academics, CEOs, coaches. It’s an incredibly inspiring group. Three quarters of the group are like you. They have published book after book and they’re very confident as authors and thought leaders.
So I showed up at this event. I have a box of 200 of these and my literary agent has said, You will ensure that this gets in the hands of every one of that network. I got there and I realized something was going on with me. I’m incredibly confident as a CEO. I’m confident as a team leader and manager and mentor. I’m confident as a mother, a wife and a friend. I took that box. We call these things monographs, and I hid them behind the piano at the Belmont Auditorium in Nashville, this beautiful auditorium. And the monographs are hidden in a box. And I would take one out at a time and would kind of sheepishly show one person at a time. And finally, it took a group.
There happened to be this group of women that were surrounding me. And they said, Well, where can I get one of these? And said, Well, they’re in a box behind the piano. And they said, What is wrong with you? Here you are a thought leader, an author, and you’re hiding your gifts behind the piano. And it hit me that I needed that monkey tribe, right? I needed a community to help build my confidence. And it was such a big lesson for me. I was trying something new. I’m flexing a new muscle. Okay, so that’s that story. Well, that’s not going to go to the second piece.
Andi Simon: Don’t lose that story because for the viewer or the listener, those are the kinds of stories that will change the way you think about what you’re doing. And when you go to that meeting, you’re going to hand out business cards. And I’ve heard people say, I’ve left the meeting because I didn’t feel comfortable. I said, Push, go in there, hand out those cards. Be real. Next point.
Jennifer McCollum: So well, and actually, just to finish that, on that point, when this is a huge problem with women, we call it recognized confidence. And it’s another one of the hurdles. Look, you mentioned imposter syndrome just a little while ago when we were getting ready for this call. We know you can’t beat confidence into anyone. You also can’t beat imposter syndrome out of someone. But here’s what you can do. You can develop the skills to promote yourself like I was trying to do over the last couple of days. But if you don’t feel ready to do that, I wasn’t ready to self-promote as an author. I phoned a friend and this is what women can do a lot better. Surround yourself with people, women or men who will help hand out that card.
What happened was, they started grabbing 10 and 20 and were handing them out for me. And the response I got from people overwhelmingly helped me build that confidence. So that’s kind of another tip and trick to phone a friend. You don’t have to do it on your own. This was okay. Well, what if, you know, we invest in companies? Do they invest all the time in their women leaders? And those women leaders come back full of hope and confidence and optimism, but their companies don’t change. Their manager doesn’t understand what they’ve been through. They don’t get access to that stretch assignment. The talent systems don’t change. The executives don’t really act on what they’ve learned or what they’ve invested in. And this is one of the biggest challenges.
And I’ll tell you another story. And he’s one of my favorite ones, Tom Greco, who has up until recently been the CEO of Advanced Auto, a big client of ours. I was on a webinar with him about a year ago when they launched their Women in Leadership program, and he said, “As the CEO, I will tell you, our leadership does not represent our customer base. We need more women. We need more people of color. And I have done this before when I worked for Frito-Lay and Pepsi, and I am going to commit to this and I will become a sponsor. My direct reports, their direct reports. By the way, there are 2025 of us and we are overwhelmingly white men. And that is going to change on my watch.”
So that’s an example of executive commitment in action, and that’s what companies need to do. What do they need to do proactively to change their culture, proactively to change their talent systems. And we help with that as well.
Andi Simon: And I’ll add one more dimension because I’ve had to work with boards who are also the white guys. And even if the executives were advocating, they always often rolled their eyes as if this was a sidebar, not the bar. And conversations at board meetings weren’t about…I can’t tell you how many times I was the only woman on that board and or at a board meeting where there were 49 men and just me. We didn’t say very much. And people said to me, That sounds like a joke, depending on what time in our evolution it was.
But the point is that there are different barriers along the way to transformation. And to your point, if the leadership really commits to it, now the question is, How do the the men, the women and the leadership begin to see a different reality, almost a different visual of the whole world that we’re living in with a whole different interactions and training each other to talk to each other? It’s like a foreign language coming together.
Jennifer McCollum: And I’m glad you mentioned the board level there. I mean, as you and I both know, being very deeply entrenched in the Women’s Business Collaborative where we are making the most progress is that the board level now, it’s not as fast as we would like, but we are making more progress there than anywhere else. At the CEO level, we’ve just crossed the 10% barrier in terms of the number of CEOs who are women. You know, only 1% are women of color. So we can talk about that separately where we tend to focus as we move down in the pipeline.
The numbers still aren’t changing quickly enough. So we’ve got about 28% women in what I’ll call the executive leadership ranks and 26% in the leadership ranks, kind of the VP level. And then as you go down, director all the way to the manager level, we’re just not making enough progress at all. And so it takes a couple of things. One, we can’t wait for CEOs or boards to become enlightened all at once. We’ve got to focus on this from many different lenses.
And one thing I love, especially because I know your listeners are a very broad range across gender, across role, across age and across experience. All of us can do something. And I talk a lot about this spectrum, from allyship to mentorship to coaching, all the way up to executive sponsorship. All of us may not be in positions of power and influence to be executive sponsors. All of us are in a position to be allies. In fact, that’s what happened to me this weekend. The people who surrounded me said, Look, phone a friend, I’m going to help you. They were all my allies and it was a really beautiful thing.
Andi Simon: Well, but your story is a very powerful one as well, because in some ways you weren’t sure how to ask for their support, but they saw an opportunity to reach out and help someone who wasn’t mentoring, wasn’t sponsoring, it was collegiality, in a very sorority-like fashion. But I have a hunch that the guys began to catch on to some of this as well. And I do think that there is a desire to do better. Do you have any of the data to share on why the diverse, inclusive companies do better and why that’s so hard to get people to pay attention to?
Jennifer McCollum: Even have an anecdote. The data is so clear. Andi, you and I have seen all the various studies around when you have diversity. We can talk about gender diversity. We can talk about racial diversity. Those were where most of the studies sit. But whether it’s at the board level, at the C-suite level or at the leadership level, whether it’s financial metrics like revenue and margin or whether it’s operational metrics like more effective decision making and better innovation, or whether it’s internal metrics like engagement and retention. By and large, gender diversity and racial diversity, by every single count, it’s better.
So here’s my favorite story. Dr. Tanya Matthews is the CEO of the International African American Museum. It’s just opening now in Charleston. So if you’re in the Charleston area, run to that museum. And about two years ago, we were thinking about writing this book. And in all of my presentations, I was leading with a lot of the data. And I finally just got fed up and said, Dr. Tanya, I don’t understand why it’s just so mind blowing that the data is so clear and any rational leader in a position of power to hire or promote diversity, why don’t they just do it?
And she said, and I quote, “Girl, if it were all about the numbers, we would have solved this problem a long time ago.” I can hear her saying that. I love her so much. And she said, “The forces for change have to be more powerful than the forces for the status quo.” That is true, that it’s not going to be numbers and data. It’s going to be appealing to the head and the heart, appealing to the emotion of fathers with daughters saying, I want something different for my daughter. I want to make sure that if she wants to be a CEO, she has a better chance than 10% of the Fortune 500. Or It’s the Tom Grecos of the world. “I need my staff to be reflective of my customer base.” And that’s not everybody that’s ready and aware. But that’s where our starting point is at Linkage. We choose the clients who have, that awareness in that readiness.
Andi Simon: Well, and that’s a good point to try to work with a client who hasn’t come to their own aha moment or the realization of it is very difficult because you’re going to be pushing this ball up the hill. But your point about the data shouldn’t be underestimated because as an anthropologist, we learned early that out of context data do not exist. And I used to teach a course “Is your data talking to you and can you hear it?” And it’s the hearing part, because you’ll take that data and manipulate it to do anything you like with it, including ignoring it.
You know, doctors love to delete the data that don’t conform to the way they like to do things. Learned that early on. But to your point, the data is very compelling and whether it’s your KPIs or whatever else you’re looking to achieve as a leader, make sure that you’ve got alignment around that with the right people who can get you there, as opposed to pointing fingers, complain and blame and find all kinds of excuses because often the resources are there and the gap is not that you don’t have the resources, it’s that you’re not using them wisely.
And to your point, then that requires a different mindset, a different set of values. And my last point before I go back to you is that we decide what the heart and the eyes, and that’s extremely important. The data is in the head. I’ve got to see it. So storytelling with the data is not inconsequential. What does this tell you?
Jennifer McCollum: I guess the other thing I’d say is, what are you tracking? We spend a lot of time with our clients who say, We’re tracking our talent acquisition. We’re tracking our diversity metrics and we’re tracking our retention. And, you know, we just say, You know what, that’s great. Those are all leading indicators. You’ve got to get ahead and start tracking the leading indicators. So when McKinsey a year ago reported that there’s a huge issue at the director level, so for every one woman who is promoted, two women leave.
At Linkage, we weren’t surprised by that at all because we’ve been tracking. We’ve got about 20,000 women in our database and with our Women in Leadership Institute every year, we’re gathering thousands and thousands of women’s perceptions around their organization. So we’re actually at a macro level looking at what do they feel, what do they think about their culture, their talent systems, their executive action and their leadership development as a woman, But also what is their commitment, their engagement, their values fit and their net promoter score?
And by every count, especially the Net Promoter score, that director level was a zero, which basically meant, Don’t believe anything. They didn’t care at all to promote that their company was a great place to work for women, and their commitment was less than 50% which said, if I’m offered another job that is similar to yours, I’m out of here. McKinsey’s The Great Breakup is grounded in, unfortunately good data, bad experiences. “I see what’s happening. I’m not stupid. I’m out of here. And I’d rather go, being, you know, a success in my own business.” You were or I am. And not to fuss around with this other system that’s evaluating us in a way that I can’t get ahead.
So I often say, Look, we know, and this is super interesting. I mean, you may remember, many more women lost their jobs during Covid than men. And there was this big concern across 2020 and 2021 that women in the workforce were the lowest that they’d been since the 1980s. And there was this thought that, Oh, my gosh, this is going to not only delay gender equity by a decade, which is what the World Economic Forum came up with, but how long is it going to take us to get back to above where we were with women in the workforce in the 80s? It only took two years. The women all came back to the workforce.
But it’s not that women are leaving the workforce, it’s that they’re leaving you. They’re leaving your organization. And so, our question to the organization is, Look, if you’re having trouble retaining women and attracting women, that’s on you. Why is that? Let us help you figure that out.
Andi Simon: Oh, I could tell you many stories. I’m not going to share them for now. We are just about ready to wrap up. You and I could talk for much longer about an issue of great importance to both of us, mostly because we both have lived our ways through this, personally and professionally, and we have a bigger purpose, which is to help others and their organizations really understand the richness that comes with diversity of all kinds: cognitive diversity and challenging ideas, beginning to see curiosity, all kinds of things that will open up possibilities for them. I enjoyed this tremendously. Jennifer, one or two things you’d like to end with so that folks can remember the wisdom that you’ve brought today.
Jennifer McCollum: I’m happy to offer a few things. I’m at a really interesting, pivotal point in my career with the book coming out. And as we integrate Linkage into SHRM, it’s kind of like landing the plane on a five year journey. And I always think these are really important inflection points in life. So I’ll leave with two things that are really helpful for me. If they’re helpful for your listeners, I hope so.
Number one is, grab the opportunity when you see it. And this takes tremendous courage. And I’ll go back to my first leadership role in a publicly traded company when I was running a business unit and my peers left and I saw the opportunity to run a much bigger part of the organization. And just as my boss was saying, we need to get your peer replaced. I went in and said, I don’t want him replaced. I want to run it. And so I’m now thinking about what that looked like at this stage in my career? So that’s the first thing.
And the second thing that goes along with that is, don’t move quickly until you have that clarity. And I can tell a lot of stories about how I jumped reactively a little bit earlier, just even five years ago in my career and made a mistake because I wasn’t clear about what I wanted. So you’re the entrepreneur. I’d worked at multiple publicly traded companies and I landed in that sweet spot of the private equity-backed small to mid-market company. And that was my landing place, but only because I gained clarity. So I will offer up those two things.
And finally, if you are a woman who aspires to advance in her career, or a man or woman who aspires to support the women leaders in your life, please, please, please consider In Her Own Voice. It launches November 13th, but it’s on pre-order on Amazon now.
Andi Simon: And I know Amazon awaits you with joy, as does Jennifer. Jennifer, this has been joyful. If they would like to talk to you further, is there a best place where they can reach you? LinkedIn or someplace else?
Jennifer McCollum: Absolutely. So Jennifer McCollum, Linkage CEO, a SHRM company. I am available on LinkedIn. And you can also go to our website at Linkageinc.com.
And Simon: And as you can tell, Jennifer is a wonderful mentor, sponsor, colleague, idea person. And sometimes you just want to use her time very wisely. But also the book is full of her thinking that will help you as you begin to pursue your own career. And there is no straight line. The one thing you should understand is that while you may think there’s a goal at the end here, there’s really a path that takes you there. And the path is as much fun when you look back on it and as it is to be certain. Humans want certainty. It doesn’t work that way.
So I want to thank all of you who come to our podcasts and who who put us above the 5% globally of all podcasts, which is really an honor. We enjoy sharing with you and our book, Women Mean Business, comes out September 26th. It is a compilation of 102 women who share their wisdom with you. And if you think of the two books as a collage, you’re going to have lots of interesting points of insight, and they always say, turn a page and change your life. That’s what we’re all about. How do we help you become the best that you can be?
My other books are available on Amazon: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is about anthropology and how it can help your business. And Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is about women who smashed the myths of women in business. We keep wanting to help you change.
And so today I will say goodbye with great joy. Jennifer, thank you for joining me. It’s been fun and I love your conversations. We’ll be back. Bye bye now.
Hear how pure contentment is available to all of us, right now
Believe it or not, we’re approaching our 400th podcast. Along the way, I’ve talked with some amazing people: business leaders, entrepreneurs, futurists, anthropologists (like myself), Blue Ocean Strategists® (again, like myself), and on and on. They’ve all been extraordinary, but sometimes I’ve interviewed someone who really made me think and feel in a new, deeper way. One such person is my guest today, Smita Joshi. Born in India and raised in the UK, Smita will challenge you to think about your life’s purpose and what you want to accomplish. She talks about pure awareness, which the ancient Indians called Ātman, and how to experience contentment no matter where you are in life. I dare you to listen to this podcast and not come away unchanged.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
What is your life purpose? Throughout our conversation, Smita talks about someting that is crucial to each one of us: what do we want to accomplish in this life? And what is the deeper purpose of all of us as human beings? She addresses these questions in her book trilogy, Karma and Diamonds, and also in her work as a yoga teacher and executive coach. Her goal is connect people to pure awareness, or total consciousness, called Ātman, and she has created useful tools—her 6-step Flow Formula—to help us reach this state, which you can find on her YouTube channel.
Let go to find who you really are
On the subject of resistance to change, Smita and I closely agree. She talks about letting go of what we think we know and how this is scary for people (sound familiar?). They don’t know how to do it. We hear an inner voice, that epiphany, but often we’re not paying attention. In the end it comes down to a choice where we have to say, will I or will I not listen, see what is in front of me, and take steps to change and grow?
The Indian teaching is Vedas, that sense of contentment with wherever you are
As Smita tells us, we need to embrace everything we have as being an absolute gift, whatever that might be: our health, our successes in life, our failures, the lessons we’ve learned, the opportunity to be on this journey. We need to be willing to let go and to trust that the answers are there, but often we block them by not being receptive. Much to learn here!
How to connect with Smita
You can reach out to Smita on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or on her website.
Want more on getting in touch with your purpose? Start here: * Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life? * Podcast: Maria Lizza Bowen—Do You Feel Stuck? Time To “See, Feel And Think In New Ways” * Podcast: Dr. Mandeep Rai—Do You Need A New Compass To Direct Your Values
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi, welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, and as you know, I’m your host and your guide, and you, our audience and listeners, have made us among the top 5% of global podcasts. I can’t thank you enough. My gratitude is extensive. It’s wonderful to share. This is almost our 400th podcast hosting. Pretty impressive. I am always intrigued because my job is to get you off the brink, not to stick and get stuck, but to find ways to help you see, feel, and think in new ways so you can change, and you know that you hate to change. So we’re going to help you do that today.
I have a wonderful woman here from the UK. Now remember, I’ve had people from South Africa and from Africa and from Europe, but this is a very special woman because she’s going to talk to you about something that’s very important to us. Smita, you’ll see, is focused on entertaining interviews and conversations that help people see, feel, and think in new ways like I do. She’s an award-winning author, an avid yogi and teacher, mentor and high performance transformation coach. And she’s written a bestseller called Karma and Diamonds. It’s a trilogy, it’s a journey of self-discovery across continents and lifetimes.
We have a wonderful multifaceted woman with us today. She had a business career spanning 25 years, working with technology giants as well as startups. So she blends that wonderful business side with the personal side. But I think we’re going to focus more on you as a person today, less on the business. And she has a YouTube channel called The Self-Discovery Channel, which is her own YouTube channel for you too. Self-discovery. Thank you so much for joining me.
Smita Joshi: Andi, I’m so happy to be on this podcast. I know you interviewed some amazing people. I’m really, really happy to be on your show.
Andi Simon: Well, I’m happy we’re here too, since we had a few little technical stuff as we started. This is going to be fun. Tell the listener about your own journey, because you haven’t just popped out and arrived here. You’ve gone through some of your own changes and I think every time people tell their personal story, the audience begins to see themselves there and can begin to share their own story. Who are you and how are we together?
Smita Joshi: Who am I? That’s a very good question. If I were to put it in one word, I’d probably say seeker, truly looking to integrate all the various facets of what makes us human. But, at the same time, I like that we are a spark of some sort of divinity consciousness. Rather, I’d like to put it as awareness in a human body. So how do we bring those two things together? And I think that for me, the journey, there’s nothing which I feel is a coincidence in life.
I was born in India and we moved to the UK when I was 10. And ever since, I have found myself looking for ways to integrate the amazing cultures that I’ve had the privilege of being a part of. And both of those offer something really exquisite. If I were to take the Indian culture, the roots of the Indian culture go so far deep and back to perhaps the ancient stages of India. I like to think of them as philosopher scientists or scientist philosophers, because they were the early scientists. Today, we might look at them as philosophers. We may look at them as spiritual adepts or however you may term it today.
But what they brought was incredible, and I believe so far my studies have given me an unrivaled understanding of being human on this planet at this time. But having the majority of who we are, perhaps 90% of our existence is in pure awareness, which is incapable of being housed in a tiny little human body and even a tiny little mind. So to comprehend the vastness of who we are. And so that’s what Indian culture has led me to be intrigued by and explore very deeply in the Western culture, gives opportunities to explore in the material external one.
Now, don’t get me wrong, of course India’s both of those things. And I wouldn’t want somebody who’s listening who’s an Indian to say, Oh yeah, well, we have more than that. Of course we do. But I think the two bring unique things, they bring them in a different way. And so the West calls you into being in the external world. The East calls you into being in the internal world. And for me, it’s not a coincidence that I was born there. And then I came here when I was 10, and then a whole bunch of synchronicities and life experiences took place that brought about more opportunities to explore and become more curious and say, Well, who am I then actually? And what is this about?
And fundamentally, then we kind of come back to that higher essence of who we are. And then, you know, when we look at life purpose, of course you can have life purposes in so many different layers. Life purpose in terms of, what does my material being that the human humanity that I am, what does that want to accomplish? And then what about the deeper essence? And what is the deeper purpose of all of us as human beings being on the planet? And, you know, I really think we’re works in progress and we are like what I call my book, Karma and Diamonds.
The diamond element has multiple meanings in the book. And one of them is that we are indeed that inner essence, that awareness is so multifaceted that it to me occurs like a treasure that is a pure diamond, absolutely pure untainted, untainted experience by anything external. And so for me, that is, you asked me who am I, I think for me that’s a more interesting exploration or an explanation of how I see myself, is somebody who’s constantly looking to one express various facets of my being, both in the material world externally, and to discover more and more facets of who I am internally, so that I can bring expression to those in the external world.
Andi Simon: This is so interesting. As I mentioned to you, I’ve been doing podcasts and I didn’t realize until yours that the whole series of them are around similar themes. It’s almost, you talked about synchronous as well as serendipity. You know, there is no intentionality here for my listeners to bring you different perspectives on this inner voice and the outer experience. But Smita has had a very different presentation of her journey, which is less about things she’s done and more about discovering who she is. And I don’t know much about her book, but I think I’m going to read it. It is probably a little bit about that self-discovery as well.
And as we were talking, what would be the best thing to talk about that trilogy, you tell the gripping story of how to overcome adversity against all odds. Tell us about the book, which is one expression because you have one expression in the book, one in YouTube. And I want to make sure that we allow the listener to really understand the wisdom that you’re bringing them because it’s a beautiful intersection here. So what is the book about?
Smita Joshi: So it’s really a book which is very much rooted in the external world. A young woman who is absolutely enthralled by life. I mean the passion for life kind of led me to join corporate work very early on. In fact, I started working when I was 14 years old on Saturdays. In the UK, we were allowed to do it in those days. It was absolutely fascinating for me to realize that I had skills which I couldn’t otherwise have discovered so easily. So one of them was selling and in another way, just engaging people and having them see a possibility of something that they previously hadn’t done and become so excited by that they were happy to invest in that thing.
So I started out in clothes shops and then moved into shoe shops and so on, and then managed them on my holidays and so on. But very quickly I realized that I wasn’t patient enough to hang around to get a degree. I really wanted to hop in now. So I gave it a go while I was waiting on my year off between what we call a level in this country. That’s advanced levels and we need that in order to qualify to get into university. So I took a year break and while I was figuring out if I should go the way of my grandfather and my mother and my aunt who were all lawyers, and my grandfather was very well recognized in Gujarat and so on. You know, he became quite a figure untill the day he died at 92. I don’t think he stopped practicing.
And my mom and my aunt also in their day, they were well ahead of their time to have done that. So that was one obvious option for me. But I was really deeply interested in psychology and so many things. Bottom line was, I got hooked into management and then I never looked back since. Then joined my first sort of corporate group, which happened to be in sales. And everything that kind of came to me was really about expressing talents that I actually didn’t know that I had. And it was just so much fun to do along the way that I realized that actually that whole world and other things happen in my life. I don’t want to go into that on this podcast in particular because they’re all in the books. Very intense traumatic events in my life that involve, that put in it a nutshell, were around clashes of culture, Eastern and western.
And I was very, very clear about what I had to do in order for me to grow and to learn more about myself. So I chose to follow my path, that inner voice that was so strong and that had me go into work and so on, and I did very well with all of that. You know, I bought my first property very early on, I think I was 21, just before I was 22, and so on. I realized that the more I got rooted into work, the more I had to find some, there was something else. It wasn’t enough for me just to do that.
So that’s when I started to explore like, what else is it? And I happened to come from a background where I saw my dad, since I was a little girl, standing on his head in Sukhasana, doing yoga almost every day and then sitting in meditation for what seemed to me a very, very long time, every single day. So that was kind of in the back of my mind, it was in my imagery. That was where I turned to when I started to explore like, what is missing? What is missing? And that was really just after I turned 25, 26. So it was very early on and I realized that when I did that, incredible things happened. Something was trying to talk to me when I wasn’t talking to myself or being fascinated by my own thoughts. Thinking this is, what this is all real.
And then I realized, what is that? It’s so different. And I’ve had experience up to that point at other times in my life, but always in moments of deep, deep trauma. And this all came out from the yoga and the meditation, but mostly the openness that you had to begin to feel it. I think openness, definitely, but I wonder whether it was more a young woman who was really looking for answers.
I didn’t have anywhere I could go to get those answers for myself immediately in my surroundings because I’d left home and that was already a really major leap and sort of upset a lot of people along the way. So, I had to find my answers for myself. Something said to me to turn within and I was very fortunate to come across the odd individuals who said, Read this book, read that book, go here, go do this. And so I just was like a sponge, and I was a sponge. So that all those little stepping stones led me to going within. I’m very, very grateful for that because that’s why I wrote the books because I realized that if it hadn’t been for, of course today we have social media, we have a lot more content. But back in the day we didn’t have that. Books were lifelines.
Andi Simon: Now you had a journey that has led you to question. You said you’re a seeker. You know, I’ve been told I’m an explorer. So we share this same curiosity about what we don’t know. And we’re not quite sure where it’s going to take us because the future isn’t terribly predictable. But I do like to explore options and see things. I do love to travel. I love to venture beyond my comfort zone. Most people don’t. It sounds like you have had to push yourself through all of that. Now you are doing this today to begin to help other people do the same on their journey. How are you doing this? You’re coaching them, you’re teaching them yoga. What kind of tools do you bring to their lives to help them see and feel with a new freshness?
Smita Joshi: Coaching is a really powerful tool. I think sharing content, online writing, all of these are really, they’re sort of different elements. So I don’t have one thing that I do, of course. I will eventually bring out courses. I’ve got so much content out there right now or have created that I’m putting out there right now. So bringing that together.
Andi, one of my challenges is that the more I learn and the more I explore and the more I understand about life, the universe, the less I feel I know. And I must say I really do feel that and some of that holds me back a little bit because I think I’m just a baby. I said, I’m learning, I feel like it’s never enough. And I think that’s perhaps a real mark of somebody who is genuinely seeking, because I think we’re in an age at the moment where we are so much in a rush to teach other people before we’ve learned things ourselves.
And I’ve spent, like now, 35 years on the journey, traveling, exploring. I’ve been diving, scuba diving for 25 years. That’s been one aspect of me going deep in another business for like 30 years and so on. I’m just looking now what would be an appropriate way to bring it together. What would I want to share? For me, the only thing I think that’s really worth sharing, especially where we are in the information age and internet age and so on, and especially with AI coming, I feel more than ever that the one thing that if I were when I die, perhaps I could make a big impact with in people’s lives is by truly getting them connected to that pure awareness that the ancient Indians called Ātman which is really that awareness, that consciousness that I mentioned earlier, which is untouchable.
It’s pure in the sense that it is unchanging, and yet it’s where everything is generated. Everything is born from that. My focus now is really looking at ways of bringing that to people at all levels where they can get an experience of that because it’s a zone, which I can tell you what it is, but it’s so different for how it occurs for you as it does to me. I want to just give you the tools to be able to access it for yourself. And so, I mean, for example, I do that in a very accessible way.
I’ve just put out one video on my channel. It’s called the Flow Formula. It’s really a six steps to getting in that zone. What sports people call The Zone. It’s getting into the flow and that you access the zone of awareness that we’re accessing when we’re talking about concentrating, when we’re talking about musicians, writers, even anybody that creates anything where they feel at one with what they’re doing. So that’s one way. The other is, I’ve created a whole bunch of meditations, which are guided meditations to go along with the books and otherwise, which give you tiny little snippets of getting into that space. So those are just a few ways that I’m doing it.
Andi Simon: What does it feel like when you’re in that space? Can you describe it for the listener? The viewer?
Smita Joshi: I can tell you, for me, it’s like I’m in love. I’m in love, and that’s all I can say to you. It feels like I’m in love now. I like to think I’m in love with my husband when I have that feeling, that’s what it feels like. It’s so lush and complete and it doesn’t beg for anything extra. I have a smile on my face when I was like, I probably looked crazy to people because I had my headphones on. I was listening to music that got me into that space. And, then I’m just doing what I’m just out of my way, meaning my thoughts are out of my way. And I’m curious as to what will come through if I were not interfering with my mental processes.
Andi Simon: This is so wonderful. You’re talking about something we hear about, but don’t always find someone who can describe it or engage us in wanting to know more about it and begin to see how it could affect us. Because when you wrote up the comments for today, you talked about the inner voice and the life that we’re living, that there’s a disconnect.
One of the questions I had asked you is, how do we get disconnected? And you say, I’m not quite sure, but there’s something going on that needs to be brought back together, perhaps through methods like meditation or yoga. But, there’s something missing that we need to find that inner hope, that silence that gives us pleasure and this disconnect. Why are we disconnected? I don’t think we know.
Smita Joshi: I’m not sure that we are disconnected, to be honest, Andi. I don’t think we are. I think that we like to think we are. My experience is simply that we haven’t really focused enough on other elements of who we are. We’ve been in survival for way too long and now we’re in our evolution, certainly in some parts of the world and not others, yet where we have had that experience of being satiated with, at least materially, we are in a privileged position, many people and others are not, who are still not very much in that survival mode.
So we are chasing. We’re still trying to bring in the money and to pay the bills. We don’t have time for going into the space that I’m talking about because it means letting go a little bit. Letting go of what we think is what we know. And that’s actually a whole other experience. That’s a whole other conversation. It’s like it’s a bit scary for people. They don’t know how to do it. They need to be guided into it and so on. There’s a practice, it needs to be practiced, but when they do it, they don’t ever want to do it. It’s really true.
And I think that’s when we start to feel that conflict within ourselves, or we feel like something’s not right, or we feel annoyed with things. We feel stressed because we have had that experience along the way. Sometimes it’s so powerful that it is an epiphany, and maybe a series of epiphanies, and when we don’t then stay true to ourselves, to expand that experience that altered us and touched us so deeply in some way, then that inner voice, that part of you is always present and you are feeling that conflict. It’s there and you are not going to it. You are there and you’re not paying attention. You’re not hearing it. And that’s where I think we experience that challenge. So it comes down to a choice in the end. You know, at some point we have to say, will I or will I not?
Andi Simon: One of the things that’s a theme among many of the folks that I work with and I know, is, Okay, we’re out of the pandemic period, but not completely. I just finished my third book and I’m asking myself the question of, Congratulations, what’s next? Thank you, what is next? What comes next for us?
And we’re at that important point in our lives where we really need to be intentional about it, purposeful, meaningful, find the kind of inner voice that tells us what’s going to matter. The pandemic showed us. We don’t live forever. And now the reality is, every day is a gift. How do we live it appropriately? Any wisdom to share?
Smita Joshi: Yes. As you say, as you know, if you are asking that question, Andi, you are ready to really explore the depth of who you are in other ways, because you’ve had that experience in the external world and you know, it’s never enough. You can continue to have more experiences. You can continue to amass more money, you can do whatever, all those. And yet that question you’re asking will creep back in. So the question perhaps is maybe a slightly different one. The question is, How am I going to embrace a bigger experience, one which truly makes me feel complete and fulfilled.
Andi Simon: Well, but then that’s a very interesting question. We had to say goodbye to three friends in the last month. And as we watch as they leave us and every day is a gift, we become very reflective. And whether I’m looking for my inner voice or it’s already nagging at me, be careful that you don’t waste your time. Be careful of what gives you pleasure, balance the work and the private life. Your family and your friends make it meaningful. And I have a hunch you are doing the same.
Smita Joshi: Yeah. I think that the one thing that speaks to me so much from the Indian teachings is Vedas. It’s very simple. And yet it’s so incredibly profound. And that is: see if you can bring into yourself that sense of contentment with wherever you are. What else is there? This is it. Then we have nothing else to fight for, everything to play for and nothing to fight for. So that’s when we start to kind of embrace what we have as being an absolute gift and whatever that might be, our health, our successes in life, our failures in life, the lessons in life, the opportunity to be on this journey.
And so I, myself, and in my yoga classes in particular, I really remind people every single class, to come into Savasana, which is the last posture where we lie down and it’s a surrender posture. And why we practice yoga is for two reasons. One is to get into that soma state, which is the highest state of connecting in meditation to this inner realm, into this awareness. The boundaries fall away and you become one with the boundaries of our humanity.
And the other is, when you come into Savasana, you can’t come into Savasana unless you have practiced. The body has had certain detoxifications and so on. But the point of Savasana is really to arrive into that. And, we go to bed every single night and I, myself, go into that state of Savasana. Savasana means a corpse actually. And it is to surrender into what? Surrender into all of everything and into the nothingness of everything but with a contentment in yourself.
Now there’s this whole movement, people talk about gratitude and so on, but that sense of appreciation, deeply appreciative of what has gone before, today, yesterday, the day before, for all of it. And I think that for me, that is a lifelong journey to, it’s a practice and it transforms how everything arises in life and how it occurs in our inner world.
Andi Simon: You know, you said that you are on many podcasts now, and I appreciate you having come today to ours because you’ve opened up my mind and I have a hunch to what our listeners are also paying attention to, which is, how am I hearing myself? Where am I finding that peace? And how do I allow myself to sleep? What’s keeping me from sleeping? Am I wandering around the house all night? There’s so many messages that you have. One or two things that you’d like them not to forget? Very often our audience remembers the end better than the beginning. Anything in particular?
Smita Joshi: No, I come back to that. I think being receptive to what wants to come in, the gifts that want to come into our lives, comes in through our awareness. It comes in through that higher consciousness that we’re talking about, Ātman. And in order to really be open to that, it is to bring ourselves into that state of peace and contentment. And we do have so many responsibilities, family and many others, financial and so on. And they can sometimes disturb our sleep at night because these things are intense. They’re very much real.
And so, the willingness to let go and to trust that the answers are there, but we are blocking them by not being receptive to them. And the sleep state at night is a really crucial state. And to arrive in the way we arrive, we don’t know how to come into our sleep state. And that’s partly why I think we are addicted to a culture across the world. There’s so many people taking medicines and so on, to be able to sleep. But I think to myself, I just have to trust that if I have a challenge in my life, there’s a solution to it.
And if I were only to get out of my own way by bringing myself into a state of contentment and peace and being okay with where everything is right now and where everything is not right now, just that state of acceptance, surrender, and that leads us into peace and contentment. Don’t be content if you don’t want to be, but at least be at peace with the way things are and the way that they’re not. And that’s enough for Ātman, the higher consciousness to start giving us the right way forward, the highest way forward.
Andi Simon: I think this has been wonderful. I can’t thank you enough for coming. I’m so glad that we were able to connect the books that you have. Karma and Diamonds is a trilogy. Where can people buy it?
Smita Joshi: They’re on Amazon and they’re on my website. So on Amazon, we have them in paperback. We have them in additional format and audiobooks on Audible and Amazon, obviously. We have the books through my website. If you’re in the UK and you would like to avail of the books through myself, you can go to my websites, SmitaJoshi.com, and you can buy them there. And I also have a package with meditation. There are 12 guided meditations that people can engage a little bit deeper into the books. So, even if people buy them on Amazon, they can just let me know, send me the order number and I will be happy to share those meditations. They can also get some other free gifts from my website too.
Andi Simon: What are nice free gifts? I’m going to go explore, and I’m also going to thank our audience for joining us today. And we’re just about ready to wrap up. I know you’ve been on many podcasts. I’m honored that you’ve chosen ours, and I’m delighted to listen to your passion. You have found your own place, your purpose, and your heart is full of joy as you want to share this. Am I right?
Smita Joshi: Absolutely. Such a privilege.
Andi Simon: It is truly my honor. For our guests who come, your audience, those who are viewers and those who are listeners, thank you so much for coming. And as you’re thinking about your own experience, you can go exploring a little bit. It’s a time for you to make sure that every day is a gift, how you live it matters. Find that inner peace, sleep well, and enjoy the day because the future is now. It’s all over us, so it’s time for us to enjoy it. Remember that people hate change, so you don’t have to worry about it. And it’s just part of it, but you can actually change for the better. So thanks for coming. I’m going to say goodbye. Take care now. Bye-bye. Thank you.
Smita Joshi: Indeed. Thank you so much.
Hear why robust, targeted marketing is the wisest investment you can make
Want to get energized about how to effectively market your business and present it to the world in the best possible light? Listen to my interview with Melea McRae, a “fractional chief marketing officer.” What’s that, you ask? According to Melea, it’s when companies like hers (Crux) “joins with an in-house team to execute on a strategy and provide additional bench strength for marketing departments.” As you’ll hear, Melea is on the cutting edge of what it takes to stand out amidst the clutter today and persuade potential buyers to want to connect with you. Listen, learn and share!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some important points for you to consider from our conversation today
- Do you really feel the marketing people you’re working with understand your business?
- It’s all about how to differentiate your message so that you’re standing out of that sea of sameness.
- There’s so much competition in every industry today. It’s easy to start a business, but really hard to grow it to that next level and scale it if you’re not making a wise marketing investment.
- What happens when marketing and sales can align is magic: rowing in the same direction, singing the same song, sharing information back and forth.
- “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.” Melea’s company teaches the sales team how to make the horse drink.
- Leadership is the most important thing. CEOs must align their brand with the company’s brand.
Key takeaway: You better believe that younger purchasers and new potential buyers are going to research your company
The people you want to reach are going to do their research. How? Online. They’re going to look at your website. They’re going to read your blogs. They’ll look at what recent PR you’ve garnered. They want to know how you describe your services. Does that align with the perception they have of you? Is there consistency throughout your website?
Then they’re going to follow you on your social channels. Remember, they care as much about your culture, how you treat your employees, and your social responsibility as how profitable you are. How are you giving back to the communities that have helped you be successful? Therefore, you need to use social media to reflect your brand through your culture, your philanthropic efforts, how you care about DEI, and how you incorporate all of that into your brand.
How to find Melea
There are multiple ways you can connect with Melea: LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and her website Crux.
For more on why marketing is key to a sound business strategy, check these out: * Podcast: Mark Schaefer—Are You Ready For The Marketing Rebellion? * Podcast: Patrick Van Gorder—Ready For The Right Data-Driven Digital Marketing Strategy To Expand Your Business? * Podcast: Dave Summers—How Can You Build Your Digital Brand Effectively?
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi, welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. And I love to do that by bringing you people who are going to help you see, feel, and think in new ways. People often ask me, why do I say that?
We decide with the eyes and the heart, and then the head gets involved. And unless you realize that, then you really don’t understand how we make decisions. And sometimes we overanalyze the data and we think we know we’re making wise decisions. Melea is laughing and she’s smiling at me.
So I brought you a wonderful woman today who’s going to help you understand the new age of marketing. It’s a time of fast change, but the old issues about how do I tell my story and how do I create a brand and how do I get to the customers who need me, whether it’s through inbound marketing or online search, or is it the website or is it social media? And how do I know that the dollars I’m spending are being used wisely by this collaboration I have with my agency? That’s her story. Let me tell you who she is and why it’s important to listen to her.
Melea McRae is founder and CEO of Crux KC and co-founder and CEO of Crux-Accelerator. Now she’s going to tell you where KC is as well. She’s a marketing strategist, 25 years of B2B and B2C experience in leading client-facing marketing departments where she earned the reputation of an insightful brand strategist. She’s formerly the Senior Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at the Greater KC Chamber. I’m assuming that’s Kansas City. Yes, it’s Kansas City, one of my favorite places to work, and she’s led the organization’s marketing and business development offices.
In 2016, she made the entrepreneurial leap and launched her own marketing firm, Crux KC, a certified women-owned business providing in-house marketing for small to midsize clients, combining the leadership of a fractional CMO with a marketing department as a service model to provide simple, smart and affordable full funnel marketing solutions. She builds marketing, communications and business development strategies for clients and positions them for sustainable growth. She also, in 2019, co-founded its sister company, Crux Accelerator, with an emphasis on sales, coaching and leadership development paired with marketing to positively impact revenue growth.
I don’t think I have to tell you much more about why I’ve selected her to come on today, other than the times they are changing and it’s time to think about very important subject marketing and sales. And Melea, thank you for coming today. I appreciate you being here.
Melea McRae: Andi, thank you so much for having me. Lovely to be a part of this.
Andi Simon: Would you tell the audience about your own journey? I can read the facts, but you know, this is about the feelings and I have a hunch you can give it a personality all of its own. Who are you and how’d you get here?
Melea McRae: Great question. Great setup. So I made that entrepreneurial leap in 2016 with a belief that there had to be a better way to service small to mid-market companies. Since then, we have really evolved in terms of working with larger companies as well. I’m a firm believer that all the marketing roles apply, as long as you really understand the audience that you’re trying to reach, right? So we do consider ourselves to be industry agnostic here at Crux.
We work with all shapes and sizes, from startups to global companies. We are fractional. I would say a fractional chief marketing officer meets an in-house team to execute on that strategy and provide additional bench strength, if you will, for marketing departments that are pretty well staffed or if they have certain gaps in their abilities, knowledge gaps, we will come in and fill those holes. But in many cases, Andi, we are the marketing team outsourced, where these clients simply hand us the keys and we drive.
I was doing my executive project during my executive MBA at Rockhurst University here in Kansas City and I really wanted to research the trends that were happening in the advertising, the traditional advertising industry. When I left the Greater KC Chamber as our chief marketing officer, I did a brief stint with a local, what I call traditional ad agency. And I’ve always been on the client side. So I saw red flag after red flag on how I would do it differently if it were my own, how I would lead with transparency, about transparency and billing.
For example, transparency and communication. Wait, wait, how much would you say that was gonna cost? We actually like our clients, we cheer for our clients. Nothing brings me greater joy than when a client fills out their org chart and they write their client’s CMO is the Crux fractional CMO that’s working on their account. So we really have this mentality because I’ve been that client. Like I said, I think like the client, I don’t think like the agency.
I think what I’ve noticed is what happens with a lot of agencies, Andi, is great people, great creatives, right? And I know several of them that have built really amazing agencies and businesses, but they are creatives and they lead with creative. So part of what we say at Crux is, there’s no fluff. Our tagline is “Everything you need, nothing you don’t.”
We jump in, we understand that client’s business. We understand their business goals. We build a marketing strategy to align with those goals, and then we hit the go button and we’re off and running. And so there isn’t that creative fluff with us. We just get to the point, that’s the name: Crux.
Andi Simon: A client can have a lot of hope. Hope is a lousy strategy. I’ve been there.
Melea McRae: Hope is a lousy strategy. I have worked with so many CEOs. I belong to CEO peer groups through my background with the Chamber. I’m pretty highly networked in Kansas City with a lot of various civic organizations and CEO peer groups and things like that, and I find myself doling out a lot of free advice and I’m happy to do so because I’m very pro business, I’m really pro small business. I feel like we have to stick together. Small businesses make up 99% of all businesses in the US. I think it represents about 44% of the total economy. So they’re the backbones of our communities.
And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had phone calls from friends that are business owners and they’ve made maybe not a wise marketing investment. They found themselves without a lot of money and with very little traction towards their business goals. So I do a lot of free education with those individuals. I simply tell them, If it sounds too good to be true, first of all, it probably is.
Do you really feel like the people that you’re working with understand your business? There’s no such thing as a one hit wonder. We know that the key is consistency. Content is still king, as you and I know in terms of fueling your digital presence and storytelling. It’s all about how do you differentiate your message so that you’re standing out of that sea of sameness. And let’s face it, there’s so much competition in every industry. It’s really easy to start a business, but it’s really hard to grow it to that next level and to start to scale that business if you’re not making a wise marketing investment.
I actually launched Crux-Accelerate for that very reason. I was working with a lot of startups. I’m really embedded in the startup community here in Kansas City. And I would watch if they would be funded. They get that first round of angel investment funding and they were out of money by month six or seven because nobody was building the pipeline from a sales perspective. We were building the marketing machine behind the scenes. But if you’ve got nobody following up with those leads, and nobody that can really even tell that story of how their brand is differentiated, it’s really hard to close up sales. So that was really the genesis of the sister company to Crux called Crux-Accelerate.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, I’m laughing because many, many years ago I was an executive at a hospital and we did marketing. I had marketing under me among other things. And we did a big campaign for some new doctors only to discover, because we created a separate telephone number so we could measure the calls coming through, if there weren’t any appointments being made. So I went to the office manager and she said, Well, we don’t answer that phone because we don’t have any time for a new company. And I said, Oh, the 450 calls came through so he’s going to wonder what marketing has done. And actually you have to pick up the phone and answer it. Now, those were the days where the phones were still phones, and we could still measure what it was.
But, you know, without measures, without data, you can’t evaluate anything. And it is a big empty hole that you’re putting money into for what now. I’ll also be honest and transparent that we were HubSpot partners for many years; now we’re Inbound Marketing folks. We understand that Google has changed the way people search and buy things. So we’re content mavens, like you said. And while I love social media, I love my website, I love the content, and I love picking up new clients who find me, download my white papers, do my YouTube stuff, and come and say, I need you.
So marketing, yes. Is it the world that we’re in? Yes. But you also have skills and services that take a young company that needs to build its story and help you get there. Talk to us about a typical kind of client, either an early stage or a maturing one.
Melea McRae: Yeah, I would say, typically we’re working with entrepreneurs. So they’re at some sort of a growth stage, an inflection point within that company’s journey. And so, yes, sometimes it’s a newer company that they’re ready to push the gas in terms of a marketing investment to really start to fuel sales leads. Sometimes it’s more of a legacy brand that has maybe been stagnant for a while. And again, they’re ready to pour some gasoline on the fire and increase their marketing efforts as well.
So really any age and stage of the client is the right fit for us, as long as they’re open-minded to understanding what a smart marketing investment can do for them. So we bring that chief sales or chief marketing officer to the equation that’s going to build a strategy based on what does the competitive landscape look like? How is their website currently performing for them? How is digital performing? Are they getting any PR hits? PR is that kind of secret sticky factor sauce for us and clients.
We do really well internally at just mining for what are those newsworthy stories that we can pitch on their behalf and that fuels social, that fuels the website. That’s with content. If those are little golden nuggets when we can nail those, even case studies. Sharing those success stories through email marketing, you know. So yeah, things like that just really work to fuel business growth for clients. And that’s our vision statement honestly: fueling business growth for clients and opportunities for our team. And we live that motto every day here at Crux.
Andi Simon: Thank you. Tell me a little bit more about has the intersection or the adversarial relationship between marketing and sales changed?
Melea McRae: Yeah. So it needs to change. I would say in many organizations, they’re still on two different paths. The sales team tends to go rogue, and the marketing team tends to abide by the brand guidelines and all the rules that apply and try to reel them in. What happens when marketing and sales can align however, is magic. If you can get them rowing in the same direction, singing the same song, they’re sharing information back and forth, the salesperson is saying, Hey, this is what we’re hearing out in the field, and it’s really this message point is really resonating with my audience.
Then the marketing can fuel that internally with social campaigns or email campaigns or do a blog, a thought leadership piece on why this particular company does this thing really well. And again, just hit those points with an explanation point, quite frankly, and put it out there in terms of content. So if they can work hand in hand, it really is magical in terms of what can result. And so that was really the genesis of Crux-Accelerate.
We come in with Chief Sales Officers that become sales coaches for internal sales teams. So they’ll coach the teams up through a six month curriculum where it’s a group training session followed by individual executive coaching with a chief sales officer. There’s a lot that goes into this, but we infuse a lot of marketing tactics, understanding what marketing is really doing behind the scenes to help you generate those leads. We’re explaining to them the difference between brand marketing and building that awareness with demand marketing and generating those leads and then show: are you appropriately following up with those leads.
There’s an old saying for marketers: we can lead the horse to water, but we can’t make the horse drink. We’re teaching the sales team how to make the horse drink. And we’re infusing things like personal brand and the art of networking. I do a presentation for Rockhurst University and some other organizations called the Art of Networking: just teaching them that networking equals connections and it’s building relationships and how you can help them so that you’re paying it forward and they’re going to return that favor and it’s the long play. So there’s a lot of that infused throughout this curriculum, but we’re pretty excited about really where Crux-Accelerator is headed right now.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, I had a client in Texas and he had great sales guys. Only problem was that the folks they sold to retired and the two who were replacing them were 35 year olds and they don’t pick up the telephone, so the outbound sales call folks had nobody to sales call because nobody picked up the phone. So when we did our research, the new 35 year olds said, Don’t they know that we don’t answer phones? We’re not going to buy over the phone, we search. Or we talk on our forums, or we go to our network, but our buying journey is a different one than the old guys who retired.
So my client says, So what will I do with my great salespeople? I said, They should be lead follow ups. You need to get a website that isn’t a brochure. But it’s full of reasons why and that turns into interest in qualified leads who your sales guys can now follow up with. It’s different, but the leads should be coming to you as opposed to you, because nobody is going to answer those telephones. That’s not the way it’s going to work anymore and until you come to terms with them, you don’t realize the integration between the web and the social and the sales.
Those four sales guys knew what they knew and the habits were great, but that’s not the way it was going to buy and it was flooring to him. Really? How many people are coming to my website? Yes, but they’re not staying. I can tell you how many are actually staying, where they’re staying, what they’re looking at. I can tell you a whole lot about your website and it’s not functional. It was very unsettling. Like welcome to the whole new world, welcome to the digital age.
We coach CEOs all the time on the days of cold calling are dead. You know, there are Sierras out there that are still holding their sales team accountable for KPIs that are, how many daily phone calls have you made? Well, you’re right. No one. Do you pick up the phone? I don’t pick up the phone anymore. I don’t even know why I have a phone on my desk. I never answer it. Quite frankly, nobody buys that way anymore. They are in charge of their purchase pattern, and they are influenced.
So by stories, I want you to talk more about stories, because the human being lives a story in their mind. It’s an illusion of their reality, welcome to the world. And they only relate to things that match that story. And if you’re out of sync with them, they don’t even see it. So tell me about your branding and your brand storytelling, because I think it’s an essential part of a marketing campaign that’s often overlooked.
Melea McRae: Oh, completely essential. In fact, when I launched Crux, we were really known as a content shop, and storytellers really followed by strategy. Over the years, over the last seven years, we’ve really established bench strength and all the other marketing tactics and expertise that we’ve needed, but we started out as storytellers, so huge advocate of storytelling working. And it goes back to content being king.
So let’s take thought leadership for example. People are going to follow you on your LinkedIn network or whatever channel, Instagram, whatever you prefer, based on the fact that they’re relating to the content that you’re sharing. So for Crux, for our voice, for example, I do a lot of blogging, a lot of thought leadership, and I always try to tie it back to some sort of an analogy or some sort of a story that’s happened to me in my past, and then I relate it to a topic or a trend, and I have garnered a really nice following as a result.
Well, we do this for all of our clients. I have CEOs that will say to me, You know, it’s not leadership that’s really important. Oh my gosh, it’s the most important thing. Because again, it’s establishing that CEO’s brand or whichever leader in the company, it doesn’t have to be the CEO, and it aligns their brand with the company’s brand. This is who people do business with: people. This is who I’m doing business with, and this is what makes them an expert on this particular topic. And then when you’re telling it in storytelling form, you know, 800 words, it’s a fun quick read, and you can pull quotes out of that and use it in your social media posts, you can maybe tie a PR story that relates back to the thought leadership piece and you can pitch that to the media.
Maybe it came out of a case study, a success story and something that went really well successful with your clients. Let’s capture that. Let’s grab their testimonials, let’s push that out through a case study that might also spawn the idea for a thought leadership piece on that particular win. What made that a win? So there’s so many ways that you can repurpose that content as well, but it truly is what differentiates a brand. It’s what makes you stand out. It is what those younger purchasers are looking for now. They want that content and they’re going to do their research. And how are they going to do their research? Online. They’re going to look at your website. They want to read those blog articles on your website. They want to look at what recent PR have you garnered. How do you describe your services on the site? And does that kind of align with the perception that they had? Is there consistency throughout?
And then they’re going to follow you on your social channels. Really oftentimes anymore, Andi, they care as much about, new potential buyers of your products and services, care as much about your culture and how you treat your employees, your social responsibility. How are you giving back to the communities that have helped you be successful, in terms of what it is that you’re offering in terms of a product or service. So social media is just another way to reflect your brand through your culture, through your philanthropic efforts, through how you care about DEI, how do you incorporate that into your brand?
We do a lot of work with our clients now around what we call employer branding, because recruitment, we’re all still searching for and finding the best talent. And it goes both ways. You’re trained to reach those potential clients, but you’re also trying to reach those potential candidates. So this is how you can use thought leadership. This is how you can use your culture in terms of attracting both of those audiences.
Andi Simon: I’m curious, I was interviewing someone today for a podcast who’s an expert in LinkedIn. With the Twitter changes and Instagram’s growth and Facebook’s role, the common question I get is, Well, which ones do you do? Which ones do you look at? And I figured I might ask you, the marketing expert, which ones for which people to do what things, because they aren’t identical by any means.
Melea McRae: And they should not be identical. It depends on the audience. The audiences that you’re trying to attract, where are they? So if it’s a younger demographic, maybe it’s TikTok, it’s definitely Instagram. Twitter has kind of lost its appeal for a lot of B2B businesses, but I look at Twitter as headlines. So if you’re just scanning headlines, that’s a good way to use Twitter. Facebook is still really powerful, many demographics in terms of various audiences, and it always performs better than I think it’s going to. That’s really the power of using one’s own network as well. Like, I’m in a lot of Facebook groups with women who mean business in Kansas City, the Casey Chambers and civic organizations that I’m in. So that’s a great way to get certain messages out where my brand is tied back to the company brand.
But my number one network for Crux is LinkedIn. We do a lot of business to business marketing. And so that’s what I would recommend for anyone that’s doing a lot of B2B marketing, but you have to really look at the other channels and how they can benefit you in terms of reaching the audiences that you’re trying to reach.
Andi Simon: And for LinkedIn, it has become a marketplace that I’m finding, excuse me, not particularly pleasant. If I have one more person who wants 15 minutes of my time to sell me one more thing that I’m not interested in. I’m trying to remain true to my brand and my story. That’s what my client this morning, who was doing a podcast with us, said, If you turn it into a marketplace, go for it. But it is not a good marketplace. You’re better off investing in content on your website and attracting people who are searching for you, as opposed to trying to push it out like a cold call. And that’s what it feels like. And they don’t know if I’d be interested or not, but I’m sure you would be. And here’s 15 minutes of my time. Hit, click this link. No, no, no. And I say, LinkedIn, what have you become?
Melea McRae: Yeah. That is unfortunate. I would agree with you. I’d probably get hit up by 15 of those a day, but the power is to the user. So I can go and just x on all of those and not accept them. It’s making it harder and harder to lead through. And for an old school networker like myself, it kind of encourages me or re-encourages me to go to more of those networking events, having more of the face-to-face content.
I was probably at six different networking events just last week, Andi, and got a stack of business cards. People still use business cards and still hand them out. I try to make networking events a game, and I try to give myself permission to leave after I get three business cards. That’s something I teach my students as well. And then you follow up with that personal email. You kind of jot something down on the back of them, a memory point. Maybe they’re traveling to Costa Rica next week or whatever it is, and you send them that little follow up or don’t ever underestimate. I almost find that a bit joyful, you know, it’s a real person with a business, a business card. It’s like real, it’s tangible.
Andi Simon: Which reminds me to redo my business cards. I’m almost out.
Melea McRae: Can help you with that, Andi!
Andi Simon: I will get back in touch with you. I could use a fresh look. It’s been three years since we were out enough to worry about them. And, now I gave them out at an event I was at all weekend and I realized they’ve getting awfully old-looking, time for a fresh look. But in any event, this is such fun as you look to the future. Somebody ranked our podcast among the top 10 futurist podcasts. So I’m a futurist now and I am a futurist. Well, the question is, what do you see coming next?
Melea McRae: You know, I think that we’ve had a lot of people try to knock off this model of being that marketing department as a service, as you will. I think that the traditional ad agency model is dying. I think that they’re having to rethink, again, how you partner with the client, how you really dive in deep and learn their business and use marketing to propel that growth for the client, customize those marketing strategies and those engagements. There is no such thing as a one size fits all. So I definitely see that changing.
I think what protects Crux a little bit in that regard is, it’s hard to bring a fractional chief marketing officer to the equation if you’ve never been a chief marketing officer. And I have, and I’ve homegrown this talent and a lot of agency owners have been creative. And so I think it’s hard for them to make that switch. You can’t just put on a CMO hat and say, I’m a CMO today.
So I think that we are going to see more of that probably. Fractional CMOs is a very highly searched word on the internet. So that’s a buzzword that’s really taken off. I will be interesting to see what happens with AI, ChatGPT, and you know, how people are utilizing that for writing versus kind of more of the old school. Really understand your brand voice and write to your brand voice. I think, you know, AI can get people maybe 60% to 70% of the way there, but you still need that writer and editor that’s going to polish it and put it in that brand voice. But I know that’s definitely on the horizon.
Podcasts are huge, what we’re doing today. We’re doing a lot of podcasts for our clients. We’re doing them ourselves internally at Crux. And it’s another way in live video, audio form, to tell those client success stories and let your client or your prospect or your key stakeholder get their message out, just like you’re doing for me today. So that is definitely a hot trend that we’re seeing with clients.
And video, video, video, video. Use it. You have to use it on social, you have to use it on your website. Google loves video so it’s just utilizing, kind of pulling all of those marketing levers in the way that it’s really going to fuel growth and attract those audiences for the clients that we serve or for your own company. If you’re a CEO listening to this, how are you making sure that you’re working with a partner that’s pulling all those levers in the right way for you? And that’s definitely a trend, because clients are getting more sophisticated as well about marketing techniques, as they should, which is great.
Andi Simon: One last question before we wrap up. The buyer’s journey is taking, in some cases, longer and longer. They are spending more time evaluating and evaluating and are most uncomfortable from what I’ve seen in making a quicker judgment. That buyer’s journey that we used to look at in terms of filling the funnel and how long it took to get down to an actual purchase. The discomfort people have come from. Many of them are buyers who are younger and the management system isn’t clear.
The risks are high, they’re not quite sure. It’s not IBM. You used to buy IBM because it was IBM, and there is no similarity in many things that you’re purchasing. I have one client who keeps buying software that doesn’t work particularly well and I laugh after a while because he buys on a less expensive side and the more innovative side, but not necessarily the more functional side. But he takes a long time to decide and then is sure. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Paradox of Choice, Barry Schwartz’s book, about the paradox of choice. So many choices we don’t make, and then when we make them, we return them or we’re unhappy with them or we should have bought something else. And I do think it’s part of the culture of today, which makes buying and managing and measuring challenging. Is this similar to what you’re finding?
Melea McRae: It’s interesting, we have a really good close rate with our prospective clients. It runs around 70%. Now, I will say in Q1 of this year, we saw people signing contracts less. Q2 though, it’s been bubbling up again. I think back to your IBM analogy, it really speaks to the brand reputation that you have developed. And so, for us, PR, and awards and that recognition has gone a really long way in terms of elevating the Crux brand in and around Kansas City. And we have clients all over the country. But, when they’re searching for us, because everybody’s out there researching, and it can delay a decision or it could speed up a decision.
So they’re researching Crux and they’re saying, Oh, Inc. Magazine, best workplaces, that’s cool. Um, champions of business with the Kansas City Business Journal, based on things like how you treat your employees. I always encourage our clients to take a look at those awards in their area, and it’s kind of like a great way to get some PR, through the award recognition as well. That really elevates that brand and builds that brand trust with your potential buyer. So if you’re really placing an awareness on that in terms of your marketing solution, I do think that can go a long way to speeding up that buyer’s decision. They trust you, they’re going to buy from you.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, in some ways it credentials you as being a third party that says you’re great, and even if the product isn’t great, you have a great place to work. So that must mean the product is good. I mean, there’s sort of all kinds of interesting links to it. This is such fun. My last question for you, usually I say that people remember the end better than the beginning. So are there one or two or three things you’d like our listeners to remember so they can find Crux as their solution? What would it be?
Melea McRae: I would say, remember the power of storytelling in terms of elevating and differentiating your brand in your marketplace. I would say content is king, so make sure that you are utilizing fresh content on your website, understanding those keywords that people are using to search you and you’re incorporating that into your digital presence. You’re incorporating that into your blog post. You’re understanding the importance of thought leadership.
And I would say when you do make that marketing investment, make sure that the organization, the agency or marketing firm, or we call ourselves a UN agency that you’re partnering with, really takes that time to dive in and understand your business. They’re not going to be able to build that customized marketing strategy for you if they don’t.
Andi Simon: This has been a lovely conversation about something near and dear to my heart, but I don’t get to talk about it very often because nobody talks about marketing very often, I must tell you. But here’s a wonderful woman in a wonderful agency. Might be in Kansas City, but it takes care of the world and it would help you see, feel, and think about yourself and your business in new ways. And so give them a call. Where can they reach you?
Melea McRae: They can find me at cruxkc.com or findyourcrux.com.
Andi Simon: Terrific. Terrific. And I bet we can find you on the internet, on social, on the web. It’s going to be fun to see what happens. You’re gonna push this out and I want to know what the data tells you about a podcast and what it can do for you. I’ve had too many podcasts. We have a lot of data. It’s been fun. Let me say goodbye. Thank you for all of you who come.
Remember, pre-order my new book. It comes out September 26th and the more pre-orders Amazon loves. So it’s called Women Mean Business. And it’s on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. And it is going to be a great book. It looks gorgeous. There are 102 women in there who give you their wisdom. And some of those wisdoms are, we say, as we look at the book, turn a page and change your life. So you ask yourself, what could Lily Ledbetter tell you? Or what could Christie Hefner tell you? Or what could Carol Toll who runs UPS share with you? What can successful women help you do in ways that you might not without hearing them? And it’s a beautiful book. So I thank all my folks who are in it, but I’m really happy to share it and a little pre-order would make me happy. So we’ll see whether this podcast can generate some. In any event, goodbye. Have a great day and take care for all of you who have come. Thanks again. See you soon. Bye-Bye now.
Hear how you have a huge say over how and when you work. I just love the fascinating people I have the pleasure of bringing to you. One of them is Marcey Rader. She first appeared on our podcast in March of 2020 as pandemic lockdowns were just beginning (doesn’t that seem a long time ago?) and I found her insights on wellness and selfcare so important that I had to have her back. What struck me during today’s conversation was how companies need to reexamine the overwhelming workloads and abundance of tasks they’re giving their workers without the resources to do them. Yes, it’s great to have wellness apps, fitness benefits, meditation rooms, and all of that, but in truth, what’s better for employees is not to need them in the first place because they’re not all stressed out. For all who work, listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
For more on rethinking wellness and work, we recommend these 3 podcasts: * Podcast: Diana Wu David—Are You Truly Happy With How You Work, Not Just Where? * Podcast: Maura Carlin and Christie Derrico—Isn’t It Time For Us To Solve The “Balance Dilemma” For Working Women? * Podcast: “Work PAUSE Thrive” with Lisen Stromberg
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, and I’m here to help you get off the brink. And I love doing that by bringing you great people to hear so that you can see, feel, and think in new ways about yourself, your business, where you’re going, the world around you. Remember, everything is in context.
I learned as an anthropologist many years ago that out of context, data has no meaning. And so now the question is, what is the context of the world we’re living in today? And how is it changing and changing fast? And I often teach in my leadership academies how to adapt to fast-changing times. It’s just the times they’re all moving and you might as well hold on tight. It’s going to be fun.
So today I’ve brought back to hear from Marcey Rader. Now, Marcey was on our podcast back in 2020, and I love talking to her. She opens my mind to all kinds of things. She has a great podcast that you should listen to, and we’ll put her information on the blog when we’re done. But Marcey, thank you for joining me today.
Marcey Rader: I’m so happy to be back, Andi.
Andi Simon: Well, let me tell the listener, or the viewer, about Marcey, and I’m going to read her bio and then let her tell us about her own journey. It makes it come alive better than words can.
So who is Marcey Rader? I believe she says that “health powers productivity” and the answer isn’t work-life balance, but tech-life balance. And I think that’s just a brilliant opening for what we’re going to talk about today. She had a case of high stress, high performance, and corporate burnout which triggered severe health issues in her thirties. It was an early burnout, and she founded RaderCo to rethink and revitalize productivity for leaders, teams and organizations at RaderCo. By the way, they take off Fridays, so don’t try and reach her on Fridays. Our little email comes back and says, “We believe that you need a day for yourself,” and I love it.
She founded Rethink, Revitalize Productivity for Leaders, Teams and Organizations. And she helps the executives and their teams banish burnout. What a great idea! Now keep good people and move forward through coaching, consulting, training, and speaking. And her speaking is centered on practical tailored tools, health, sustainable habits, and accountability. She’s one of only 850 certified speaking professionals worldwide, a certified virtual presenter, and a certified digital wellness practitioner.
I’m going to pause there because while I enjoy reading it, it really is nowhere near as interesting at what’s Marcey’s going to tell you about a post-burnout person who thrives by helping people never burn out, which is a strange thing for us to do. Burn up and burn out. Marcey, thanks. And tell us about your journey. Who is Marcey?
Marcey Rader: Andi, I am celebrating my 10th business anniversary this year. Woohoo! So I am very excited about that because when I came from the pharmaceutical and biotech clinical research industry, and when I started my business, I had no idea what I was doing. I was very naïve, which in some ways is very good. I didn’t know that I wasn’t supposed to be a spokesperson my second year of business. I didn’t know that I wasn’t supposed to have this business model that other people hadn’t thought of before. But then, those things turned out to be good. But then there are also, of course, other things, many, many mistakes that I learned, many lessons from along the way.
But the burnout piece is really important to me because I was very young. I was in my mid-thirties. I lived a very high-stress lifestyle. I traveled up to 48 weeks a year for about a decade. I was an athlete and I competed in triathlons, Ironmans, ultra-marathons, and so on. I was very high achieving. Every promotion was not enough. Every step up was not enough. I just kept making the goal higher.
And I triggered, for lack of a better term, a functional menopause for 12 years. It was related to stress and that is not, not, not good when you are 35 years old. And also I have Hashimoto’s disease [autoimmune disorder]. All of these things. And when I look back, those are things that could have been fixed. Those are things that I could have prevented.
And so much of it was about not realizing what I could say no to, or not feeling empowered to say no. And striving for what I look back now to see as the wrong things. And when I’m speaking with, especially with women, but also with men, when I talk, especially when I talk about that every goal I just kept setting higher, they can almost always relate.
Andi Simon: Yes. But, you know, nobody was making you set higher and higher goals, were they?
Marcey Rader: Oh, no, it was all me. And I do think, I emphasize that when I’m working with people, whether as a coach or in training programs, that nobody’s making you do anything. The question is, how do you want to live your life? And how do you take charge of it in a way that feels comfortable?
Andi Simon: That point about not saying no or saying no…No—it’s not a four letter word. And how does it fit into, and remember, we live the story in our mind. So the question is, what story do you want to live? Because nobody’s framing that story. You’ve created it, you believe it to be true. My favorite quote is, “The only truth is there is no truth.” And so once you understand that, you realize, oh, that there’s another way. You discovered another way, and now you’re helping others do the same. Tell us a little bit about that transformation you went through starting a business, figuring it out, and now it’s at a really interesting time. Where is it? 10 years into it, you have really hit your stride.
Marcey Rader: We have. It’s really exciting. We are a combination of speaking, training, and coaching/consulting, and we are productivity focused, but always with health centered around it. So it doesn’t matter how many boxes you check, Andi, if you’re staying up all night to do it, it doesn’t matter how many emails you answer if you’re answering them at dinner with your family, and so it’s always with the health focus, but we have different subject matter experts that we pull in.
So productivity is the umbrella. But we have people, leadership experts, mindfulness, cultures of belonging, communications, presentations. We have these different experts that we can bring in so we can be more of like a one-stop shop. And we’ve worked with companies as small as one person tech companies to Delta Airlines. We have seen many iterations of what works and definitely what doesn’t work, and what we’re about at is 50-50 training and coaching/consulting, and we like that.
I like having that split because like when Covid happened, it worked out very well for us. Our business didn’t suffer at all. We actually had more business than we can handle. That was already a specialty of ours. I’ve worked remotely since 2001. So I’ve been training individuals to work well remotely for about 15 years.
So when the pandemic hit and everybody was going out of their minds, how are we going to do this?, you know. We have so many, so many people that would contact us and say, I don’t know how we found out about you, but we need training tomorrow. And so, that kind of transition as a country that we are shifting into now, we’re kind of figuring out how we work hybrid. How do I work differently at home three days a week and in the office two days a week? And so it is always shifting.
I am never what our director of marketing…she started with us a couple years ago and is very new to all of this…and she said, “Every time I feel like, oh, you know, we can kind of cruise, then something changes.” There’s not a lot of cruising. There’s always going to be change.
Andi Simon: Well, and her point about we’re going to cruise, not with Marcey anyway, maybe not the company. But if you have a fixed mindset, you’re in the wrong place. This is a time for growth. In fact, your job is to bring innovative ideas in, because people need them and you need them as well.
But the interesting part is that we have a good relationship with Washington University. We were out there last weekend for a reunion, and the athletic director and his team were very concerned about their athletes competing to see how little sleep they could get. And he started then putting them into meditation, yoga. And we have a room that we have dedicated in the athletic facility for study, and turned it into a wellness center. And he said, “You have to start early because their whole value is on an unrealistic life where it’s not good for their athletics or their academics.” But when he said that, I went, “Man, I didn’t imagine that it goes right down into elementary school where the ability to balance the different demands on us are trained.”
But this is interesting for people in business. You know, you and I both work among very successful business folks who can’t quite figure out how to balance all of the options that they have in their day so that it is a doable day. And, the number of young people when they faced the pandemic, asked the big question, If you only live once, how do I want to live it? And they have now started to draw a line among companies to say, No, I’ll only work with you if… And they’re not quite sure what the if is, but they know that it isn’t what it was. You know: “I drive to work, I spend an hour in the car, I work eight, nine hours, I drive home an hour in the car, and I’m supposed to have a life.”
And I have one client whose employees all said, “Nope, we’re perfectly happy working anywhere and we’ll be very efficient.” So now we have an interesting time of rethinking what comes next? What do you see coming next? Because you are out there watching, talking, and helping them really design the future. And someone once said, the future is here already, it’s just not widely distributed, and you’re trying to distribute it. What do you see?
Marcey Rader: Well, first I just have to comment that that makes me very sad that they’re wearing that sleep badge, that lack of sleep badge so young. I wore it as well. But, I’m hoping that it’s becoming less and less of a thing, that wearing that badge that I get such little sleep, but also, I work x amount of hours and bragging about that. I work 60 hours, 70 hours a week. I used to do that too. It’s not anything to brag about anymore.
What I see is that more people looking for jobs are going to be looking at companies that don’t have an “always on” culture. Because as you said in the intro, it’s really not work-life balance. It’s like a teeter-totter work and personal life, and your work is part of your life. So I don’t really like that term.
It’s really when people say they want more work-life balance, a lot of times they’re talking about tech-life balance. And because it’s our technology that is infiltrating our personal lives, it’s that we’re getting emails at night from our boss or our team members. We’re getting pinged on the weekends, and we have this always-on culture. And part of that came from Covid, you know, and it wasn’t our fault. A lot of companies didn’t know how to work remotely. They were thrown into it without policies. There were parents that were just working whenever they could, when their kids were asleep or when they had two hours of babysitting a day. It was just people working whenever they could.
And, you know, it’s hard to untrain yourself from bad habits. And we’ve gotten into really bad habits as a culture. And so these companies that have this always-on culture, what they don’t realize is that it creates micro-stresses for their employees. And these micro-stresses build up over time. And even if you are a boss and you say, “If I send you an email at night, I don’t expect you to answer it,” that doesn’t matter if you are in a position of hierarchy, most people will feel compelled to at least check.
And there’s actually a stress called anticipatory stress. And when people are just expecting, “Maybe I’ll get an email,” they’re anticipating that stress. And what we’ve recently learned is that anticipatory stress actually filters into your family. So it’s this digital wellness, which is kind of a new term, but not in my world, but for companies to think about investing in a digitally well culture.
And actually, I’m certified by the Digital Wellness Institute and I’m one of the few practitioners that have partnered with them in their digitally well workplace certification. I mean, there’s actually certification now. And what I am promoting to the companies that I work with is that you could be one of the first to be a digitally well workplace. And while it may seem like it doesn’t matter as much now, a few years from now, it’s going to matter a lot because it’s going to be one of those things that employees look at, just like when they look at the B Corp symbol or things like that. Is this company that I’m going to invest part of my life in, do they care? Do they really care about how things are for me outside of work hours?
Andi Simon: You know, to some degree, the companies themselves should be talking and working with those employees to create a company for the future, because nobody really knows. The youngsters are trying to devise something that makes some sense. But you have so many variables coming in and the elders have been there a long time. The habits are the way we do things.
Every time I get hired to help a company change, we start with, “Well, no, that’s the way we do things. That’s the way it’s done.” I say, “I know, but it’s not working anymore.” “But I don’t know what will work.” And I say, “That is the interesting question. It’s a time for exploring, experimenting, collaborating, going out and seeing what others are doing that might work. But most of all, think about the customer and the employee as if they’re collaborators in co-creating the work of the future.”
It’s no longer, “I make it, you buy it.” It’s no longer, “You work here. I’ll tell you what to do.” Everything that we did is gone. If not in your company, it should be, because now the collaboration will create really rich possibilities.
I did some work with one fellow and his head of sales said, “Well, I got three phone calls from folks who wanted things that we don’t do.” I said, “So what did you do?” He said that he said, “Well, we don’t do that.” I said, “Well, they are looking for a solution. Can you help them?” You can be a general contractor. There are all kinds of opportunities for folks who are saying, “I need this, who can help me?” It’s not, you make this, I’ll buy it. Change the mind. Remember the words we use: change the worlds we live in and now it’s fine.
I love the digital bot, ChatGPT. I can’t tell you how many folks say, “Oh, I’m not going to use that.” I said, “Oh, yes, you are. Because it’s absolutely fascinating.” And then I did a bunch of podcasts on blockchain. And one of the women in my book has created a whole blockchain company for the supply chain. And a city in Switzerland is completely on blockchain. What are we fighting? It’s so fascinating. Now, are there any cases you could suggest to the audience that might illustrate what you’re seeing? I sometimes like to make the abstract a little concrete.
Marcey Rader: For ChatGPT or digital wellness?
Andi Simon: Digital wellness.
Marcey Rader: Wellness. Just one correction: at RaderCo, we do work on Fridays. We just don’t do email! We also have No Task Fridays. And the reason why, Fridays are used to finish up what we’re doing so that we can go into the weekend and not be given something to do as we go in. And so we might be finishing up tasks, but we’re not assigning them to each other.
Andi Simon: Pause for a second because you just defined a workplace of the future. I asked you for an illustrative case, but that’s as good as any that you can share. Now you’ve done this by design.
Marcey Rader: Yes. And it was an experiment. I believe we tried something else first. What we settled on was that we liked Fridays to catch up. I’ve not lost any business. On a Friday, nobody’s getting dumped on because it’s actually called, there’s a name, it’s called the Friday Dump when somebody sends somebody something on a Friday afternoon. And even if it’s not due til the next week, it’s that anticipatory stress. It’s that knowing like, now I have this coming up.
And you know, we have a very detailed out- of-office that we started on Thursday at five o’clock or whatever. And it’s fun, but it gives everybody a link to our manifesto, which is an email manifesto to let people know how we communicate. And for companies that feel very, and I know this is not for all companies, like if you’re a pest control company and people are trying to reach you to remove their pests, I’m not saying this works for you. It could work for some roles within your company, but you know, so much of it is communication expectations. And so that people aren’t caught off guard.
And if people know, like when somebody signs up with us and they get the contract and they get their first email from us, their next steps, it says at the bottom, “This is how we communicate. Here’s the link to our manifesto. Here’s how you communicate with us, in case of an urgent matter, and so on.” And as long as you communicate that to your vendors, your clients, your customers, there’s no problem. We’ve never had anything but envy or happiness for us. And, we’ve had companies that are starting to consider or shift into No Meeting Fridays or no emails after 1:00pm on Fridays. You know, people are just taking steps. But then, the easiest solution is, if you do work off hours, just schedule your emails to send later.
Andi Simon: Well, and now, so there are tools you can use, schedule those emails to go later. There’s a mindset that says, there’s not work and life. It’s a balance. And you are in charge.
If you can take that expectation management is really fascinating. There’s nothing wrong with saying, “My expectation is that I’m going to work really hard for four days, then on Friday, I’m going to get reorganized, get everything into place so that I can relax and my weekends are mine.
I had a great editor who simply said, “No, I don’t do anything on the weekends for the publication because it’s my time with my family. Mm-hmm. And I said, interesting. Now I’ve been a consultant for 22 years, I’ve been in my own business. And over the years, the creep on Friday became onerous. And in recent years I’ve just made Fridays by and large my day. Anything that I want to do for myself, I try to do that on Friday, that doesn’t mean I can’t do it other times.
I put 3 million miles in my body, so I needed a little bit of my time. And I urge people who are in the consulting business, you’d be amazed how other people begin to say, that’s a good idea. I can have my time also. And, it becomes…the pandemic did something very interesting. My husband and I both traveled a great deal for business and then we would travel for vacations every 90 days. We took a trip, the pandemic brought us together. We didn’t travel, and we went. This was fun. Now how do we get it done with a little time anyhow, because you can work all the time.
Marcey, I could talk to you all day because I think that you’re on the brink of something quite transformative for our audience. Give them two or three things you don’t want them to forget. Often the listener remembers the end even better than the beginning. We’ve talked about so many really important things about the future, both of your life and work, some things you don’t want them to forget now.
Marcey Rader: What you said was very important about we choose to have the life that we want to live. And yes, while I agree with that, it’s up to you. If you are the one checking your email at night, that’s on you. And on the weekends, that’s on you. However, I also go back to, if you are a leader and you’re sending those at night and they know you are, then you’re still creating that culture of anticipatory stress. And so it goes both ways.
We are the owner of our time, but we also as leaders have to be considerate of that. Something else that I want people or companies to rethink is the benefits they give for self-care. The wellness apps, the fitness benefits, the meditation rooms, all of those things. I think they are wonderful. I commend companies that are doing it. However, it puts the responsibility on the person to fix the reasons why they need these things in the first place.
If companies would look upstream at the overwhelming workloads, or the abundance of tasks that they’re giving people without the resources to do them, they wouldn’t need all of those apps and benefits downstream. And so while self-care is our responsibility to take that time, just like going back to the communication after hours, it is also the responsibility of the company to determine why we need it so much.
Andi Simon: This isn’t going to get easier. It’s going to get more complicated. And because the companies are looking for role models among other companies, they’re mimics and they imitate each other. And unless so-and-so is doing it, well that can’t be a good idea. So now we’ve got to find those who maybe they are the companies of purpose who really begin to see this as a bigger opportunity. Or maybe they’re good companies that see the benefits for themselves and others.
I think this is going to be the next few years that are going to be transformative in ways that I hope lead us to a better, healthier life. The last thing you want to do is find yourself back in a feudal society and sometimes I get this kind of weird thing that it feels that way. This is always so much fun. Where can I reach you? What kind of stuff do you do for folks?
Marcey Rader: We are at helloraderco.com and we work with all size businesses, from speaking to keynotes, conferences, but also training. And our three most popular trainings, one is around email, one is around focus and attention, and another one is around time. And it’s not really managing your time, it’s using your time effectively and your attention effectively. They go together. Managing your time and attention go together. And then we also do the coaching and consulting piece around that.
Andi Simon: This is such fun. Thank you for joining me today. It’s always a pleasure to see you. This is virtual or real, I’m not sure, but it’s delicious. Thank you again. It’s fun for our listeners. Remember, our job is to help you get off the brink and soar and so On The Brink with Andi Simon is my way of sharing wonderful people who I’ve met. People say, you haven’t monetized your podcast? I say, no, I’ve joyfully shared great people so that you can see, feel, and think in new ways, which is really what I hope you have seen today.
Remember, we decide with the eyes and the heart. And today has felt all about feeling a life that’s worth living, that you can create with the tools to do it. Remember, every day is very long and every year flies by. And so take care, be careful.
My books are available on Amazon. They’re here to help you. My new book comes out in September. It’s called Women Mean Business. You can pre-order it on Amazon, which I hope you will do. Amazon loves pre-orders and you can even order a bunch of them there to share. Women Mean Business has 102 women in it, all of whom want you to see their wisdom, understand it. And one that I loved is, “You don’t have to believe everything you’re thinking.” Another one is, “Your network of course is your net worth,” and then one that I just love is that what you see is, you can create this hope. There’s really powerful women in there who are ready to help you become the woman you always wanted to be. Like Marcey. I think this is such fun. I’m going to wish you all a good day. Please stay safe. Stay healthy, and enjoy life. Bye-bye now.
Learn how what we're really doing as we go through life is work on ourselves. What makes an inspiring leader? According to my guest today, Dr. Srikumar Rao, it is to be personally inspired by a vision which brings a greater good to a greater community. As a leader, you are in the business of helping everyone you run across improve their position in life and raise their level of consciousness, because this is your path in life. Isn’t that a great message to live by? My dear friend Pat Shea, with whom I did a podcast back in 2020, told me that I just had to have Dr. Rao on our podcast and boy was she right! Listen in, this could very well change your life.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Dr. Rao’s pearls of wisdom that you can take and apply to your own life
- The only thing you ever do in life is work on yourself.
- Everything you’re given by the universe—your partner, your children, your job, your career, your business—they’re tools. You use those tools as skillfully as you can. But in the process of doing that, what you’re really doing is, you’re working on yourself.
- Life is a short journey, let’s make sure we have joy and it feels purposeful and takes us to another place.
- Your awareness is like a flashlight. What does a flashlight do? A flashlight illuminates whatever you shine it on. What do we typically do with the flashlight of our awareness? We shine it on the two, three, or four things that we think are problems in our lives and we DON’T shine it on the 40, 50, 200 things that are good about our lives. So shine the flashlight of your awareness on the many ways in which you’re fortunate and blessed. Do it the last thing at night before you go to bed. Do it first thing in the morning. Call to mind the many ways in which you are truly fortunate.
- When you’re in a state of mind of appreciation, of gratitude, you’re not nervous, you’re not anxious, you’re not fearful. The two cannot coexist.
- Become aware of mental chatter, that internal monologue that you have going on in your head all the time.
- Don’t beat yourself up over mistakes you’ve made (the second arrow). Learn how to rise above it and see the world the way it should be.
To contact Dr. Srikumar Rao You can reach out to Dr. Rao on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website, The Rao Institute.
For more on how self-awareness and gratitude can help you be a better leader, start with these: * Blog: Time to Add Gratitude to Your Life—And Your Company’s Culture! * Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose! * Podcast: Danielle Grant—Authentic, Ethical, Caring And More Effective Leadership
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon, and I’m your host and your guide. My job is to get you off the brink. We’ve done this for four years now, and as we approach our 400th session, I’m still in awe of how many wonderful people there are to share with you so you can see, feel, and think in new ways. Remember, we decide with the heart and the eyes and then the head comes into play.
So, how can I introduce you to this wonderful man, Dr. Srikumar Rao? Pat Shea, dear friend, said I must have him on our podcast. Now this is important. So let me give you a little bit of background so you know why his perspective is so important for you as our listener to better understand. Dr. Srikumar Rao is a speaker, former business school professor and head of the RAO Institute. You should look it up. It’s a great website based out of New York. He’s also an executive coach to senior business executives whom he helps find deeper meaning and engagement in their work.
This is a theme, a recurring theme. Now, it isn’t work that gives you purpose; it’s finding deeper meaning in your work. Dr. Rao’s programs have helped thousands of executives, professionals and entrepreneurs all over the world achieve quantum leaps in effectiveness, resilience and overall happiness. Like, you know, there’s a whole body here. Graduates of his workshops have become more creative and more inspiring leaders in some of the world’s most successful companies. He helps leaders around the globe transform their lives so that they can experience abundant joy no matter what comes their way. He is a Ted speaker, an author and creator of the pioneering course, Creativity and Personal Mastery.
Dr. Srikumar Rao, please tell the audience better than I can your absolutely wonderful story for the audience. There are two stories that are going to come together today. One is Dr. Rao’s own personal journey, and it is a wonderful role model for you yourself, and then what he developed to tell others through their journey so that they don’t get stuck or stalled on the brink. Remember, today people are on the brink, and they get off it because they have an aha moment, an epiphany. They begin to see things through a fresh lens. And that’s why I want to share with you, Dr. Srikumar Rao. Please, who are you? What is your journey?
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Thank you, Andi. My pleasure. Let me share the brief or the briefer version of my journey. I grew up in India. We were a middle class family. I was a physics major and then I came to the US. I came to Columbia to do my PhD. I had no interest whatsoever in doing a PhD, but I had a huge interest in coming to the United States of America. And it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you want to come to America, it’s a very good idea to come on somebody else’s nickel if you can manage it. And here were all these great universities saying, Mr. Rao, come do a PhD. We will give you a fellowship. That means money. So I said, Yes, I’ll do a PhD. So I came to Columbia because it was in New York, which seemed good.
I did my PhD in marketing because at that time, Columbia was the world’s best business school for marketing. So that’s how my life went. I was drifting. I got a job with Warner Communications and there were a series of lucky breaks as a result of which I rose spectacularly fast. I got a big project, which normally would not have been given to me, but my boss had a personal emergency. His boss had to go to Europe on a long scheduled trip. So I got to do it. So I advised on the marketing strategy for a book, which went on to be a movie, which went on to become an all-time blockbuster. In fact, even today, after more than 50 years, it’s on the list of 50 top grossing movies of all time. This was the original Exorcist. Ah, so that was my career.
And I rose rapidly up the ranks. And at the ripe age of 22, I was head of corporate research for Warner Communications, reporting directly to the president. I got burnt out by corporate politics. So I thought I’d go to the academia where everyone was imbued with a quest for pure knowledge and politics did not exist. I was sadly mistaken. So then I got stuck in a university environment while my colleagues who remained in corporate now moved on to great financial success and hierarchical positions of authority.
And I was stuck plodding along. And I thought I had such great education, such a wonderful early start, and I blew it all. I wasted my life. I’m done. You know, it’s over. I blew it. So I was not depressed, but pretty down on my life. I’d been doing a lot of reading, spiritual biography, mysticism, a lot of biography which took me to a wonderful place. And I came back to the real world and it sucked. And I remember thinking, if all of this is useful only if you’re sitting quietly thinking peaceful thoughts, but not when you came to the hurly burly, then it’s useless. Somehow I knew that wasn’t true. I knew that this was very valuable. Maybe even the only thing that was valuable. I just hadn’t figured out how to make use of it.
So one day, I got my bright idea, which is, why don’t I take the teachings of the world’s great masters, strip them of religious, cultural and other connotations and adapt them so that they’re acceptable to intelligent people in a post-industrial society. And the thought of doing that made me come alive.My process up to then, I was a marketing guy. So every time I got a bright idea, I’d ask, will others be interested? Is there a market for it? And if I thought there was, I’d develop that idea, otherwise I’d drop it.
This is the first time I didn’t ask the question. My initial thoughts were, I teach MBAs. We all know what motivates MBAs. Nobody is going to end up enrolling for the course, but that is okay if they did register, God bless them. If they didn’t, God bless them. Anyway, I was going to create the course because I needed it for me. So I did, it did well. I moved it to Columbia Business School in 1999 and it exploded. It was the only course at Columbia Business School, which is a university-wide draw. I had students from law school, from business school, from the School of International Public Affairs, from journalism, teachers college, all over the place. And Columbia is a big international school. So people from other business schools came to Columbia on exchange and they took it and they went back and said, Hey, you gotta take this course. It’s great.
So it traveled. I taught it at Columbia, obviously. I taught it at London Business School, at Kellogg, at Berkeley, at Imperial College. And then I spun it out and started teaching it privately. And it got a tremendous amount of publicity. You know, it was in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Forbes Business.
Andi Simon: You have fallen onto a diamond. Yes. And you’re polishing. So where did that take you?
Dr. Srikumar Rao: So that’s how it all started. And in the meantime, I became an executive coach because people viewed my videos. They watched my TED talks and said, I want to work with you. So I became an executive coach with a global clientele by default. I have a unique niche in coaching, Andi. And my niche is I coach successful people who really want to have an outsized impact on the world, but they also have a spiritual bent, and they want to infuse that into every part of their life. That’s my coaching sandbox.
Andi Simon: When you think of this as a podcast or a video podcast, the audience is saying, how does one do that? Is that something you can share with them? How can they begin to, it’s the same words that you are using to see, feel and think in new ways about themselves because you said something important. These are executives who don’t just want to make a living, they want to transform others in the world in what they’re doing. They have purpose and meaning. How does one do that?
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Well, the answer to that, Andi, is very simple. You begin that process of transformation inside. In other words, you have to undergo personal transformation before you can become effective at helping others on the journey. If someone tells me, I want to be an inspiring leader, I tell them, you’re pretty well advanced on the wrong path. Because when you say, I want to be an inspiring leader, it’s all about you. I want to. And what you’re really saying, if you examine it, is, I want people to do what I would like them to do which perhaps they don’t want to do. So I got to figure out how to get people to do what I want them to do. And they don’t want to do what I want them to do because I got to learn how to manipulate them. I’m being deliberately provocative, but there’s more than a grain of truth in what I’ve just shared with you.
So the way to become an inspiring leader is to be personally inspired by a vision, which is a grand one, which brings a greater good to a greater community. And you have tremendous flexibility in defining both the greater good and the greater community. But if you find something which draws you so strongly that you’re willing to devote, if not your whole life, at least a big chunk of your life to it, and it brings a greater good to a greater community, and you learn how to communicate that vision, then whoever comes in touch with you will become inspired. You’ll become an inspiring leader by default.
You know, when Ghandi set out on his journey, he never said, “I want to be an inspiring leader. I want tens of thousands, millions of people to follow me now.” He said, “The passport laws are unjust and I will not let them stand.” And he was a British-trained attorney. He had verbal skills and he used whatever talents he had to mobilize support for the passport laws. “Laws are unjust and I will not let them stand.” And later on when he led the war against colonial rule in India, and in the process of doing that, he did in fact become an inspiring leader who, and even 80 years after his death, there are millions of people worldwide who were influenced by his ideas. That’s how you become an inspiring leader. The journey of transformation always begins between your ears.
Andi Simon: This is so both brilliant and appropriate. I have three leadership academies. The word “leading” requires us to have followers and followers who hear you, understand what you’re asking of them, but hear it in a way which takes them and inspires them. Not just to be tactical and practical, but to have a bigger reason for doing something.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct.
Andi Simon: In the words. Purpose and meaning have become trivialized in today’s world.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: That’s true.
Andi Simon: In “the great breakup,” people are saying to corporate: “Unless I have meaning in work, I don’t need to work there.” But I’m not sure they know how to find that purpose and meaning, and what those words actually mean. I know you have some courses and you have a book in the process. Is this a collective experience, a personal one? How do people begin to discover themselves?
Dr. Srikumar Rao: It’s both. See, what happens is, in the very syllabus of my course, I state, “This is a program which will profoundly change your life. And if it doesn’t, we have both failed.” What do you mean, it’ll change my life? But it really does. Consider where I’ve drawn my material: from the words of hte great masters.
So what happens is, as you undergo this journey, you change, and as you change, you recognize that you’re not in the business of creating followers. You are in the business of helping everyone you run across, improve their position in life. More precisely, raise their level of consciousness. And the reason you raise their level of consciousness is because that’s your path in life. In the process of helping them raise their level of consciousness, you’re really working on yourself in raising your level of consciousness.
Because in my book, Andi, the only thing you ever do in life is, you work on yourself, and everything you’re given by the universe—your partner, your children, your job, your career, your business—they’re tools. You use those tools as skillfully as you can. But in the process of doing that, what you’re really doing is, you’re working on yourself. And that’s the only thing you ever do in life. You work on yourself.
Andi Simon: You came about this by struggling through other avenues. You knew you really didn’t want to go into marketing, but you did really well in it. You left and joined a university and you did well, but not financially well. And then all of a sudden you had an epiphany. Those master courses opened your mind to a whole other way of thinking. Do people have to go through a similar kind of journey? Is there a pathway that starts earlier that can help them? Or do we have to experience life first?
Dr. Srikumar Rao: It’s a combination, Andi. There is no must. Each person has a unique path in life. I’ve had people who’ve taken my program say, “Your course completely changed my life.” And they didn’t have any dramatic reversals or breakthrough switch catapult. They just examined what I said, and it made sense to them and they adopted it. And others have to have their head beaten by life before they start recognizing the way I’ve been doing it is all wrong. So there is no one size fits all. It’s a uniquely individual journey.
Andi Simon: It’s interesting as I’m listening to you, because my third book has just gotten published, it comes out in September. It’s a good book. It’s called Women Mean Business. It’s a great book. I think all my books are great books. But in the process, I’m now at a phase saying, what’s next? Business is very good. We picked up a great client. We’re going to study the meaning of life for older adults and what is quality. I mean, it’s really cool work, but there is another piece, and I share that with the listeners and yourself about what matters as you reach a particular stage in our lives.
I’m not growing younger and the past has been a delicious one for me. I’ve had a great life, great family. But you’re raising that question of what’s that larger purpose, meaning something beyond tactical and practical, something that can really lift up and lift up others. While people have said that to me, I’m not quite sure what that meant. And I’m not sure I can touch it and feel it, but you are saying something which is, maybe I should come and wander through your course with you and begin to understand it and begin to see it in a bigger picture. You’re smiling at me.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: I would be delighted.
Andi Simon: It’s funny because Pat and I were talking about this just a week or so ago, and Pat is very interested in having me deliver my course in Nashville. And she is a dynamo, as you know. And she wants it so strongly, and I’m not opposed to it, that we might very well conduct a live program in Nashville. We are still working out dates and details and so on, but it very well could happen.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: But aren’t you in New York?
Andi Simon: I am in New York.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: So am I in New York? So maybe there’s a New York version that we can do, because I can’t.
Andi Simon: That’s also possible. I’ve conducted the course in New York. Yes. So a big advantage of doing it in Nashville is that Pat is a strong supporter and an anchor. But I also think Pat is seeing it as a bigger thing. If she has, I don’t know, 25, 30, 40 people who she touches, how can she elevate all of them to a higher level?
Dr. Srikumar Rao: That’s the whole point. Exactly. Correct.
Andi Simon: She wants to spread your pixie dust so that those folks have more joy in life. I think you say on your website, life is a short journey, let’s make sure we have joy and it feels purposeful and takes us to another place.
I’m curious, I’m an explorer. People said I’m a futurist, which I didn’t know, but I’m always looking forward to see how fast change is going to affect us and what’s strong about it and what’s weak about it. What do you see coming next, both from a philosophical perspective?
Life is changing and quickly, and as a result of what is happening outside, I’m finding that there are many people who are recognizing that the real journey is between our ears, as you say, not outside. Now, I’m not in a position to say whether this is a trend in the product population. Certainly the persons who seek me out are persons who have already started that inner journey, otherwise they wouldn’t have sought me out in the first place. So there are more of them than ever before. But are there more of them because I’m getting better known and there are more videos of mine floating around? Or is this a trend that’s something I cannot comment on?
Well, but either way, you’re serving your need. Remember, it’s not about I, it’s about what they need and how you begin to open up a doorway into a different view of their lives at a time where we’re all doing it. When I’m working with our folks about preparing for the future, you know, humble perspectives, humans need to see the future. If they’re going to live today, what you do is give them a way of being excited about that future. The past has passed. So what’s coming next and how do we capitalize on it? How do we enjoy it? Because it’s coming.
I’ve become a big fan of ChatGPT. And I just did a podcast with someone who said, “Oh, I haven’t even touched it or tried it.” I said, “So before you criticize it, go explore it, be an explorer because it is here and it’s going to be transformative.” It is here and it’s going to change how we get things done. Is that bad? I don’t know. And that’s not the only, whether blockchain is here to shrink stuff or, you know, 3D printing. If you put ’em all together, the world is in a very transformative moment. It will not be the same as yesterday, but I don’t know what it’s going to be tomorrow. So go ahead.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Think back 20 years ago, you hardly had the internet then. And I can remember if you went from place A to place B, you actually had to have a map. And think how things have changed in just the last 20 years.
Andi Simon: And it is accelerating. Yes. I think that’s actually exciting for my grandchildren who will see the world in a very different way. One of the things that came through the pandemic is a good deal of research on the distinction between virtual and real. And, this is a profound philosophical question. About what is virtual and what are you and I’m not real, because we’re doing this virtually. Are video games for people, adults, not part of their reality. Kids talk about avatars and do-overs. It’s because they’ve been well trained by their video games. That’s a perfectly normal response to something.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Completely. I agree.
Andi Simon: You’ve just hit upon a very important issue. You know, what is real? You can have some interesting discussions on that. And, without a perspective of your purpose and your own life here, it’s very easy to get into the anger over the changes. Humans don’t like change, you know that. As opposed to the joy of the new and the unfamiliar. I do think that we are all going to be changed, whether we like it or not. Who are now writing books and perspectives besides yourself? I’m beginning to identify the transformation in a way that they’ll be a part of our masters in 10 years.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Here is the funny thing, Andi. What the great masters said is as relevant today as the time that they said what they did. And this goes all the way from Buddha and Jesus to modern Michael Singer, Ram Hershey, Anthony de Mello, just to name a few. They are every bit as relevant. The essential message does not change because human beings do not change. No true circumstances do change. And there are all kinds of gizmos and toys to distract us. But who we are fundamentally has not changed and will not change.
Andi Simon: How true that is. And we are good people, humans who have thrived and survived because of our ability to tell beautiful stories and share extraordinary lives. A couple of things you want the listeners not to forget as you’ve been thinking about this? We always remember that they remember the ending better than even the beginning. And I’ll always remember you coming to Columbia because it was a cheap way to get to the Americas, but apart from that, what don’t you want them to forget?
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Okay. Let me share some things that I would like every person watching or listening to this to take away. The first thing I would like them to be aware of is that your awareness is like a flashlight. This is very important. What does a flashlight do? A flashlight illuminates whatever you shine it on. Take the flashlight of your awareness and shine it on the chair in which you’re sitting. The moment I ask you to do that, you become aware of the pressure of your buttocks on the seat. You feel the fabric or the leather against the back of your thigh. Correct? 30 seconds ago, you were not aware of any of this, but now you are. That’s true. Why? Because you’ve shone the flashlight of your awareness on it.
What do we typically do with the flashlight of our awareness? We shine it on the two, three or four things that are problems in our lives. More precisely, we shine it on the two, three or four things that we think are problems in our lives and we’ve defined them as problems in our life and the 40, 50, 200 things that are pretty damn good about our lives, we never shine the flashlight of our awareness on it. So this slips by in the background unnoticed.
You and I are incredibly privileged. We’ve had books published. We don’t have to worry about whether we are going to eat tomorrow. We have a bed to sleep in, a roof over our head. We have competent people who can give us medical attention, should we need it. Any of this is a big deal in a huge chunk of the world outside. But we never shine the flashlight of our awareness on it. So it slips by.
So what I advise everyone, my coaching clients, people who take my call: shine the flashlight of your awareness on the many ways in which you’re fortunate and blessed. Do it the last thing at night before you go to bed. Do it first thing in the morning. Don’t go to the space of there’s too much to do and I don’t have enough time to do it all. Call to mind the many ways in which you are truly fortunate. Bathe in it, marinate in it, value in it, soak in it. It is my hope that everybody listening to this will be in the default emotional domain of appreciation, gratitude. Because when you are there, you’re not nervous, you’re not anxious, you’re not fearful. The two cannot coexist.
Andi Simon: That’s a very important lesson to learn. You have the flashlight of your awareness, shine it wisely.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: The second thing is for them to become aware of something called mental chatter, which is an internal monologue that you have going on in your head all the time. It begins right up when you get up in the morning. It is with you throughout the day and is with you when you go to bed. And sometimes it’s so loud that it prevents you from going to sleep. The kind of thing that says, what time is it? Do I have to get up? I don’t want to get up. Let me hit the snooze button. I can get another 10 minutes of sleep. All of that is mental chatter. It’s always been there. It’s like an unwelcome relative who’s shown up in your house and you can’t kick him out. So we ignore it, suppress it. We work around it.
We do our level best to live a life despite our mental shadow. Huge mistake. And it’s a mistake because we construct our lives with our mental shadow. We think we live in a real world. We don’t. We live in a construct. And we built that construct. We made it out of our mental chatter. Let me illustrate.
One of the more powerful teachings of the Buddha is the parable of the second arrow. The Buddha asks his disciple, If an arrow would’ve hit you in the arm, would it not be very painful? Yes, Lord. Very painful. And if a second arrow would’ve hit you exactly where the first arrow hit you, would it not be even more painful? Yes, Lord, it’ll be even more painful. And then the Buddha asks a surprising question. Why then do you shoot the second arrow? So that needs some explanation. So let me tell you a story.
There was this woman, which is a good mother of a son who grew up to be 16. And he got his provisional driver’s license. And one day he wanted to show off that he had his license. So he went to his mom and said, Hey, I’m going to go out with some friends and can I take the car? And she said, of course not. You know, you just got your driver’s license. Where do you have to go out from? No, no, no, mom, you don’t understand. I’ve got to take the car. She said, okay, I’ll drop you. No, no, no. You don’t understand. I’ve got to take the car and you have to not be there. I was okay if I can’t be there, that’s fine. There’s Uber. No, no, no. You don’t understand. I have to take the car. Didn’t you hear me? I have to take the car and you have to not be there. And the mother says no, but you know how children are. He begged, he pleaded.
And bit by bit, she felt herself giving way. She took promises, you’re not going to drink. No, no, I’m not going to drink. You’re going to call. Yes. You’ll be back by 10 o’clock. Yes. So reluctantly she gives him the car keys. And of course once he gets the keys, he forgets all about his promises, he doesn’t call, breaks curfew and has too many beers. On the way back, he has an accident and his mother is with him in the hospital while he is being operated on. And then when he is wheeled to the recovery room, she dashes home to have a quick shower and change so she can go back to the hospital. And at that time a friend calls and says, how could you possibly have given him the car? You are not a mother, you are a murderer. Now, are you shocked that a friend would say something like that at this juncture? Probably. Would you be less shocked if I said, that’s not what a friend said, it’s what she told herself. That is the second arrow.
It’s bad enough having a son who’s recovering from an accident, and you don’t know what the after effects are. Does it make matters better to tell yourself that you are a poor mother and in fact, maybe a murderer? Of course not. No. But we do it all the time. That is the second arrow. And the second arrow is always delivered by means of mental shadow. Let me repeat that. The second arrow is always delivered by means of mental shadow. No matter what situation you’re facing, Andi, your mental chatter about that situation is making it at least in order of magnitude worse. For most of my clients, if I can get them to stop at the second arrow, they’d be way ahead of the game. By the time they recognize what they’re doing to themselves, they’re on their fifth, sixth, 253rd arrow.
Andi Simon: Oh, I know. My daughter is a special ed teacher, and she sometimes tells me, If only I could work with the parents, the kids could turn out far better than the parents working with the kids. And as I’m listening to you, that mother-son story is a very appropriate one to think about. Where and how do we create the right action, values and self-care so that we can deal with the situations that come, in a very positive fashion with control over it. And that friend who said, You’re a murderer, was right in some ways, but that was less important than that it was the mother.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: So those are the things I’d like to leave your listeners with.
Andi Simon: If they want to reach you, your book is on Amazon?
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Yes, it is. So the book is called Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots: The Movers and Shakers’ Guide to Unstoppable Success. It is virtual and we’ll be starting up live courses again, but all those details are being worked out. They can go to my website, which is www.theraoinstitute.com and sign up for it. And then they will be signed up to get information about that. And then they’ll be on my list. They’ll get my weekly blog, and they’ll also get information about my courses and programs.
Andi Simon: I love it. This has been a very heartfelt conversation. I want to thank Pat Shea for insisting that I have Srikumar on for my listeners, I know you are sitting there saying, This is really important. I can already imagine some of my listeners, I know who they are, saying, Hmm, am I shooting myself with the second arrow or am I able to rise above it and see the world the way it should be?
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Yes. It’s hard, but it’s important.
Andi Simon: Let me thank you. And I think I’m going to sign up and get your blogs, maybe even take your course.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Thank you, Andi, it’ll be a pleasure having you. And if Pat is your friend, you can be sure she’ll reach out to you.
Andi Simon: To our listenerers, thank you again for making us among the top 5% of global podcasts. But most of all, thank you for coming, sharing, and enjoying. Our job is to get you off the brink. And today you can really hear why we are both anxious for you to see, feel and think in new ways so you don’t get stuck or stalled. And I urge you, listen to Dr. Srikumar Rao’s podcast, share it, give it to others. The transcript will be up on the blog that we post. I think there’s some deep thoughts here that are well worth remembering, thinking about, reflecting on, and maybe taking to the next step.
Dr. Srikumar Rao: Yeah. And they can watch my TED talk, Andi.
Andi Simon: Yes. I will make sure that’s on there as well. Thank you. You’ve been such fun. Thank you all. Thank you all for coming. Have a wonderful healthy day. Please see the world as a gift every day as a gift to you.
Hear why a big part of life is having a life worth living, even at work.
Today I spoke with Lori Pine, a 25-year corporate VP turned certified executive leadership coach. What Lori teaches us is something we maybe all innately know but often don’t recognize: that a big part of life is having a life worth living. To many executives on that hamster wheel, this is a big statement. Yes, moving up the ladder and advancing your career are certainly worth pursuing, but we shouldn’t overlook the importance of self-care. As Lori tells us, creating a community, finding soul connections, doing simple acts of kindness, and just simply getting enough rest are all part of the path to a happy life. Listen in, learn and share!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
The answer is within, not without In our conversation today, Lori touched on several key insights we can all learn from:
- Corporations have a responsibility to enable their employees, men and women, to have a life worth living.
- Part of that is having community, which goes beyond company-organized ERGs [Employee Resource Groups].
- Employees have earned the right to control the environment in which they are working.
- Employers are waking up and seeing the newfound negotiating power of employees.
- We’re in a cultural transformation where your behavioral health, your mental health, your well-being are really part of your job.
- Workers have more autonomy and power than they think they do.
- Self-care is more than a mani-pedi. We can learn to take care of ourselves in many ways that are life-changing.
To connect with Lori, you can find her on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and her website, loripine.com.
For more on finding joy in your work and your life, we recommend these: * Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! * Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life? * Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Good day to all of our fans out there. I’m so excited to do another podcast. Remember, you have brought us to the top 5% of global podcasts, and so I can’t thank you enough for being such a great share because you take the podcasts and share them with others and they get opened all across the world. So my thank you.
Today, I’m On the Brink with Andi Simon. I have a wonderful guest for us. Lori Pine is a beautiful woman who’s here to tell you about how she can help you do what I like to help you do: see, feel, and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. Let me tell you a little bit about Lori and then she’ll tell you about her own journey because you’re going to be fascinated by how life is not in a straight line, as you know, and hers curves and twists and so can yours.
So who is Lori Pine? Lori is a 25-year corporate VP, turned certified executive leadership coach. And that’s not without importance here. She helps female executives establish healthy leadership pattern practices with the goal of creating thriving professional and personal lives, working with global powerhouse brands like Anheuser-Busch, a Coca-Cola company, and Campbell’s Soup. Lori learned firsthand the preciousness of being a woman on the rise. And today with Lori’s guidance, clients can develop curated action plans that prioritize self-awareness, empowerment, and even a little self-care, allowing them to spend more time enjoying their lives and this time not feeling stuck.
So she’s going to tell you her journey because it’s a really cool one, and then we’re going to talk about how she can help you see, feel, and think in new ways so you get off that stuck-in place. And whether you’re an executive or a rising executive, you’re going to find it very interesting to listen to Lori. Lori, thank you for joining me today.
Lori Pine: Thank you so much Andi for having me. I’m so glad to be here.
Andi Simon: Tell our listeners: who is Lori Pine, how did you get to where you are now? Because the journey is an interesting one, important for them. It tells people who it is that we’re listening to. So who is Lori?
Lori Pine: So I’m a girl from Maine. I grew up in pretty humble beginnings. Small town, one traffic light. My family owned a restaurant and so I grew up with a really strong work ethic, close Irish Catholic family. And I couldn’t wait to leave. I had big dreams. I wanted to see a city, I wanted to see the world. And as soon as I was done with college, I was off on a plane and I really had aspirations to be a corporate VP, to climb a corporate ladder, to see the inner workings of business and companies and to have an impact, to work with smart people.
I wanted to work on big projects and all of that, to experience what was out of the state line of the state of Maine. And I really got to do that. And from Maine, I went to Tampa and then I would go on to seven more states and it was a tremendous career, in working for three really big global brands and the training that came with that and the people and the friendships and the experiences. I mean, I got to do everything from go to the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 to the 2000 Olympics in Sydney, Australia to every imaginable NCAA final four to the Super Bowl that you can imagine with some of these big brands.
And in the meantime, I really wanted to be this female who made other female relationships and helped other women rise. But you know, if you think about it in the nineties and the two thousands, this was kind of a new concept and there was a lot of competition and there was a lot of, who’s going to get the job? Is it you? Is it me? And with finite positions, it wasn’t always friendly fire. It’s a limited number.
We can operate in an environment like that if all we do is work, but that’s not all we do. We’re human and we’re having personal lives as well. So I would go on to get married. I would have two children, and then I would also go on to get divorced and become a single mom for seven years until I ended up remarrying. And there were times in there where there were some really dark times where I was crying myself to sleep at night, not knowing who I could turn to, not knowing who I could trust.
Then 11 years ago, I lost my mom. When your world starts to kind of fall out beneath you, you start looking around saying, where do I turn? And I don’t know if I just wasn’t aware of the coaching industry or they just weren’t presenting themselves to me, but I wish that I had had a coach who I could have confided in and trusted, who understood what it was like to be in my industry and in my workspace, to really help me get through some of those dark times, sleepless nights, knotted stomachs, big presentations. But I didn’t have that.
So learning to navigate all of that on my own brought me to an experience two years ago where I was in this corporate VP role. We were in a global pandemic and my youngest son was really struggling through the pandemic. It became kind of this pivotal moment for my family where I actually made a decision to become a stay-at-home mom when he was 17 years old. And it was one of those experiences and moments in time where I never could have predicted it. If you had told me it was going to happen, I would’ve told you, there’s no way. But here I was and it made all the difference in the world for my child and for our family. And it gave me some space to hire a coach and to say, what do I want to do next in my career? And so here we are today.
Andi Simon: How interesting, because you’re talking about your perspective of that rising star in a corporate environment that challenges, amongst others, men and women, for fewer and fewer slots. Sometimes they complain that the pipeline has nobody in it, and sometimes they don’t realize that they jumped off because it wasn’t exactly a great journey to get someplace.
And did you really need to be there, but sometimes you don’t know who you are and what you’re looking for. And that sounds like your epiphany, which was, oh man, where am I? Why am I doing this? Is this really me or what I want to do? Your aha moment was a catalytic moment with your son and that transformed him and transformed you. Because now you are a life executive coach, correct?
Lori Pine: Yes.
Andi SImon: And in that training, I have a hunch, you went through your own self discovery, did you not?
Lori Pine: Yes, for sure. And I have been on a journey of self discovery for probably two decades. You know, when you go through a divorce and your children are two and four, you kind of say, I need to be self-aware of what is happening here. So it had been almost a two decade journey of self-discovery. But in my executive coaching program at Rutgers that I went through about a year and a half ago, it took me through some really profound exercises with my cohort and the instructors and you’re taught to really ask these profound questions. And some of those questions are like, wow, unnerving. So yes, it gets to some really deep stuff.
Andi Simon: Well, sometimes we can only move forward not by going backward, but by going inside. It was in that room inside. And I have a hunch in your executive coaching now, you help women do the same type of dig inside to know not the past, but where the future is coming. Am I right?
Lori Pine: Absolutely. You know, I think the therapy field really works on the past. That’s not my expertise. It’s an inside job and that’s what we really try to cultivate.
Andi Simon: Well, in that process, what are some of the things that you’re discovering? You don’t have to cite anybody, but I have a hunch that the process itself is a bit abstract for our listeners or our viewers. So what does an executive coach like yourself do? You’re not helping them grow the business, you’re helping them grow themselves.
Lori Pine: Yes. Grow themselves, understand themselves. You know, who am I, who really am I as a person? And where am I willing to bend and where am I not willing to bend? Where are my boundaries? For a busy, either rising star or executive, where’s my self care? I can’t be all work, I can’t be all mother, I can’t be all wife. I need some self care of my own. And, what does that look like?
And I really talk to my clients about that., I’m not just talking about a day at the spa or a mani-pedi, I’m talking about your boundaries, your ability to say yes and your ability to say no, that are to things that are meaningful to you. Your ability to be able to discern when somebody’s taking advantage of you and to be able to identify your ability to raise your hand and ask for help and not to see that as a sign of weakness. Also, your ability to be able to speak your truth in a way that’s not whining or complaining, but it’s your truth. And to do that so that it comes across empowered.
And so just those things alone can be impactful and change a trajectory for somebody. One of the things that really was important to me as I built this coaching practice was, I really thought about the young woman I was who was crying myself to sleep at night, who didn’t know where to turn, who was so busy that she could hardly eat lunch at my desk with a Diet Coke and a bag of pretzels. And to think about that time-starved, energy-starved person who’s probably now Googling at night or watching something on TikTok for a solution. But what she really needs is somebody to hold her hand who’s been through it and knows what she’s experiencing. And so that’s really what I’ve tried to do.
Andi Simon: You know, you mentioned to me before we started about resilience, a tremendous amount of discussion about women’s resilience now, and you had some ideas about how you help them believe that they can be resilient. You clearly found a pathway that wasn’t easy.
What are some of the things that stressed-out women should think about to allow them with or without a coach to begin to resolve some of these complexities? Some can afford a coach, some may not even know where there’s one, as you did. But, I have a hunch you can give them some wisdom.
Lori Pine: Yes. You know, I think it’s important to have a group of like-minded women that you talk to, that you surround yourself with, whether it’s a networking group or a peer group in your work. Lots of HR departments have employee resource groups to be a part of something where there’s like-minded women that you’re talking to a friend group, where you’re going out and you’re talking at night and you can share: Hey, here’s what’s going on.
Those soul connections can be just so enriching to our whole life. Andi, you have those groups in your life. I know you do. So that is the opposite of isolation. You know, when we stay isolated, there’s very little room for resilience because we stay really stuck. So to get out of the isolation, to be in connectivity, to be in collaboration with women who are very like-minded, that helps with resilience.
Also, a simple act of resilience is to rest. Sometimes that’s very counterintuitive for us. We don’t want to rest. We want to keep on going because that to-do list is so long, but simply getting eight hours of sleep can change everything for us.
The science of well-being, that’s the most popular course I took. I had to. The Denver Mental Health Center is my client and they said, before you work with us, you have to take the science of well-being. As I listened in…remember these are Yales, they worked really hard to get into Yale and this is their most popular course, because they’re depressed. I laughed.
So what does she teach them in the science of well-being? This is all in your hands. This is not that hard. One of the first things is acts of kindness. They gave people money and said, You can keep it or give it away. The people who gave it away had a huge soar in their well-being. And those who kept it had nothing.
And they did it in Africa. And the same thing happened. It was human, not a particular culture. And then they found that not only acts of kindness, but gratitude are things that we know. You send out three notes at the end of the day and your self-worth goes up and their happiness goes up as well. It doesn’t take much to have a gratitude diary. Oprah will sell you one for $29. Or you can just do things that give you gratitude.
Like you’re saying, you must eat and sleep. The human body needs peace and they need exercise. And it is a mystery to us why we’ve put ourselves in such a bad state. Bad enough. We’ve lived alone during the pandemic and we haven’t been able to get out and have community, but we really haven’t realized that it puts us into a depressed state. We have no one to talk to.
Humans are hurt animals. We need to have other humans. We need to celebrate with them. Share with them. And, I have a hunch, both you and I, between our spouses and our family, realize that the community doesn’t fatigue us. It enriches us. So one resilience tool I have is, build a community of friends you can trust, and enjoy them. Yes. And don’t live alone if you can help it.
Andi Simon: Agreed 100%. You know, the opposite, the end of it gets to be burnout. And we’re hearing so much in the media and Harvard Business Review about these studies on burnout and that seems to be like the end of the scale.
In terms of this resilient scale, when we get to that point of burnout, it’s as though we’ve left ourselves so untended for so long trying to please everybody else that there’s nothing left in our gas tank. So at some point, we have to stop and say, how do I put fuel back in my own gas tank? There has to be a flag in the ground with all of the things that you just said and a sense of worthiness that says, I’m worth it.
Lori Pine: I am disturbed that corporations, like the ones you talked about, whether it’s Anheuser-Busch or Coca-Cola, don’t realize that they have a responsibility to allow and enable their employees, men and women, to have a life worth living. And part of that is having some time, some community. Those ERGs [Employee Resource Groups] are far too formal to be communities.
People are getting community fatigue. This is not a mystery for them either. And so a little note of gratitude coming from a senior to a junior person is not so terrible. And beginning to get people to have a little lunch together and just sit and talk about life or the baseball game with women and not to keep them out of that beer party on Friday night that the guys go out to. Bring them in, even though they have to go home and watch their kid play soccer.
I mean, there’s a time now for a cultural transformation. Employees have earned the right to control the environment in which they are working. Employers, if we want to keep the talent better, wake up to see this is a new world. And if you don’t take stock soon and do something, does anyone at the large companies actually think about your behavioral health, your mental health, your well-being as part of their job?
Andi Simon: Yes. I think that they did. And I think that there were certainly initiatives for that, but it became very much a mixed message. So on the one hand, they’re thinking about it: there’s programming, there’s initiatives, and then on the other hand, every two years, like clockwork, there was a reorg. And there was a restructuring and people were let go and it created such anxiety. Were you going to be let go? Were you going to have a job? Were you not going to have a job?
But the flip side of that was, were you going to have a job without all of the support of the people who were just let go? And so every two years you were going through this learning curve of either a new role or learning to operate with fewer people. And this whole mantra of, We can do more with less. And, you can until you burn out. And so it always contradicted the other. And that became just an expectation that this reorg was coming, this downsize was coming.
Lori Pine: That all of corporate America seems to buy.
Andi Simon: You know, with the advent of AI and the fear that this is going to lead to job changes, if not job losses, I think we’re going through the next transformation, which makes the work you’re doing for women and perhaps for men too, extremely timely. And how do we prepare for them?
I teach a program on the fast-changing times. How do you adapt to thrive in fast-changing times? Because the times are not getting slower. And if you don’t understand why change, humans hate change, they like their habits. They would rather do yesterday’s today rather than think about learning something new. So that’s who we are.
Now the question is: the times are changing and now as you look forward into the future, do you see anything coming that you can share, other than how you’re going to help people to survive in this?
Lori Pine: Yeah. I think that openness, willingness, kind of setting aside everything we think we know, is how we’re going to operate because it is coming so fast. I mean, if you just think about what’s happened in the last decade, how much technology has changed, how much all of our working styles have changed, what the pandemic alone did to working styles. Now hybrid work, hybrid work in-office work.
I mean, every day there’s a new article about hybrid versus remote versus a hundred percent in the office and which way is it going? So I believe it’s willingness and openness and the more we can educate ourselves, certify ourselves, and be willing to pivot, it better prepares us.
Andi Simon: And maybe a little executive coaching could help you prepare to pivot. Every two years for the reorg and now the reorg’s every day. Life is a reorg.
Lori Pine: It does feel like that. And if you look at the headlines, somebody’s reorging. Some major companies are reorging every single day. 10,000 jobs, 12,000 jobs, 25,000 jobs. So it’s happening right here. And people are afraid right now. So how do people preserve themselves, help themselves?
Andi Simon: Wonderful. Lori, this has been such a pleasure. Can you share with our listeners even two or three things you don’t want them not to forget?
Lori Pine: They have more autonomy and power than they think that they do. The answer is within, it is not without, it is within. And self-care is more than a mani-pedi. We can learn to take care of ourselves in many ways that are life-changing,
Andi Simon: Those are just beautiful. I was hoping you would say those for our listeners and our viewers. You know, Lori has gone through her own great transformation. Her journey has been not without bumps and bruises. And now she’s here to help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can get resilient. But the times are changing and how do we prepare ourselves for something that people by and large, humans hate change. Lori, how can they reach you if they’d like to talk to you?
Lori Pine: You can come to my website, lori pine.com, where I have five self-care habits you did not learn in the boardroom. And you can follow me on Instagram at Lori Pine.
Andi Simon: I think that’s just great. The joyful CEO I think is so much fun. For my listeners, thank you for coming, as always. I truly appreciate it. Many of you have gotten my book Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business or On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. So many of you have called and emailed and thanked us for the wisdom we try to share.
My new book comes out in September. You can pre-order it now. And I urge you to, Amazon loves pre-orders. It’s called Women Mean Business, and it’s under Andi Simon. And it is a time for us to realize that women do mean business, not simply because they’re moving up that ladder, but because they’re building businesses that are productive and financially very remunerative and really successful in different ways.
They lead differently, they see the world differently. So we have 500+ insights from leading women in that book, ready to help you turn a page and change your life. It’s a time for change and you’re going to enjoy it. Lori has a great smile. Lori, thank you for coming today.
Are you on LinkedIn? These days it seems everybody is. Even if they’re not using it correctly, they’re on it, so much so that it’s now become a platform of constant self-promotion. But that’s not how it started in 2003 when it was launched as a networking platform for professionals. So how can we use LinkedIn more correctly, and productively, and not fall into the trap of just using it to sell ourselves? My guest today, JD Gershbein, a true LinkedIn expert and thought leader (although he objects to that term), will tell us. And, he’s an anthropologist, like myself! Do listen in.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Key takeaways from our conversation today:
- JD helps people anticipate and prepare for change, increase their change competency with LinkedIn, and keep an eye toward the future.
- “Content” could be the most overused word on LinkedIn right now.
- We’re at a point now where so much of what we do on LinkedIn is geared towards selling. People are being sold. They’re pre-conditioned for a pitch. And that’s not the way to do LinkedIn.
- You’ll sell more products and services on LinkedIn by not selling products and services on LinkedIn.
- The real value of LinkedIn is that it gives you an opportunity to individuate, to put yourself out there as an authority figure, to build a brand.
- If you’re going to build a brand, it takes a lot of hard work and you have to stick to it.
- There is no playbook with LinkedIn. Do what feels right to you. That’s how you start to meander into meaningful conversations and people get interested in you.
To connect with JD, you can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter, his website and by email jd@owlishcommunications.com.
For a deeper dive into LinkedIn and personal branding, check out these 3 podcasts: * JD Gershbein—How Is LinkedIn Your New World For Building Networks? * Lisa Staff and Deevo Tindall—Social, Video, Digital: How Can You Build A Personal Brand Today? * Cass McCrory—You Have A Great Personal Brand To Live Right Now
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon. I’m your host and your guide. We’ve been doing this for four years now, and I get such pleasure from bringing you people who can help you see, feel, and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. I don’t really want you on the brink and you don’t want to stick there either, but sometimes we have to learn new things and how do we better share that than bringing wonderful, wise people to help you do that.
Now JD Gershbein is our guest today, and if you look back in my repertoire, we had JD on three years ago, and it was great fun. He redid my LinkedIn profile, which is just beautiful, and I often show people what JD can do for them. But the question for today is, what is JD doing now and what does he see happening? How can that help you?
And most of all, we are all into LinkedIn. I have 12,000 friends. Some people have a hundred thousand friends. They’re not exactly my dearest friends, but I’d love to know them better. And JD is going to help us do two things. He’s going to talk to us about the next frontier and about LinkedIn style. So what are we going to talk about? Let me tell you about JD first.
My first thing is that JD brings a keen sense of observation and distinctive voice to the global stage. That’s not inconsequential. He draws upon his background in neuroscience, psychology, and humanities, being, like me, an anthropologist. I so enjoy his interdisciplinarity to offer our listeners depth and breadth of understanding of social media. And that’s very important.
Having received unanimous acclaim as a LinkedIn strategist, this is a guy who really now bills himself as a professional entertainer. And he’s forging new inroads as the architect and impresario of a professional development platform that encompasses a stage show, a review, an original web-based video series, a theatrical podcast, and his own live highly interactive educational events. That’s JD with his razor sharp wit, which you’ll hear today. And an engaging stage presence. He consistently leaves his audiences wanting more, and you’re going to want more. That’s why I brought him back. JD, thank you so much for coming today. I am so excited to share you.
JD Gershbein: Thank you. Am I really doing all that stuff? When do I have time to do other stuff?
Andi Simon: You have to remember a little self-care and life is a joy, and I have such joy doing the work we do and you do. But this is important. So JD, you don’t have to do your whole journey, but give the listeners a little bit about your, let’s say, your LinkedIn journey, and it’ll open the stage for what you see happening. I think what’s really important is that you share your wisdom and that’s why it’s so important to hear from you today. Who is JD?
JD Gershbein: Well, thank you Andi. And it’s good to be back on On the Brink. I’m not sure if I’m on it or off it, but I know I’m somewhere around the brink. And thank you for having me back. Boy, a lot has changed. I mean, the world is moving light years per minute now, isn’t it? Keeping up is a challenge, especially for professionals who, since the onset of the pandemic, have been taught by the global world. And what have we learned? What have we learned in three plus years since we were imposed into this exile in the virtual world?
I’ve just been in a period of deep study. Fortunately I was in a position to help a lot of people who postponed or neglected LinkedIn for so many years. And then when the pandemic hit, and I look at the pandemic as one of the great inflection points in human history, certainly in recent years, and with the advent of technology and with new things that are going on in technology all the time, we had to learn this thing. We had to survive, if not thrive in this world.
So I was there to pick up a lot of the slack, and the game kind of came to me. And I’ve learned so much. I learned through my clients. I’ve learned principles of community building and community management and tribal affiliation through all I’ve done. And you, of course, being an anthropologist, can attest to the strength of people and how they aggregate and form tightly knit communities. And that’s been one of the great observations that I’ve brought. And it has kind of helped me rewire my platform.
So I speak of LinkedIn in entirely different terms these days, Andi. I’m more of a pioneer, and I bring a frontier mentality to it as I always have, because we’re never going to settle this thing. It’s changing too fast, too dramatically. And just when we think we’ve got this frontier pegged, there’s always another one creeping up behind it.
So the gift that I’m bringing now in my study and in my client work is to help people anticipate, prepare for change, increase their change competency with LinkedIn, and keep an eye toward the future.
Andi Simon: You know, JD, I have several leadership academies. I’ve been doing actually one for five years, another for four years. They’ve all gone virtual and I think that the concept of, how do we adapt in fast changing times is quite relevant for today because people hate change and they fight it. And they weren’t quite sure what LinkedIn was at the beginning. But it’s changing. They’re changing this power of community.
How do I share and create a culture that is common? And then what’s the new frontier? The topic you said you most like to talk about is LinkedIn…is it the next frontier? Maybe merging historical present day and futuristic perspectives. People have said that I have the best futurist podcast among the top 10. And then, the topic is really appropriate. Let’s go back to a little history, a little present, and where you see it’s going. It’s a perfect way to help our listeners understand LinkedIn. Not for what they thought it was a place to have an identity, but a community.
JD Gershbein: Exactly. And the frontier mentality is that we’ve come across LinkedIn at certain times in our lives. Some people are just getting to it now. I got to it in 2006 when it was really a barren wasteland. There was nothing there. It was echoes in the canyon. And there were a few people in the world who made the move to LinkedIn: specialists, myself included. We all knew who each other was in the world, and nobody was outsourcing us for the work we do today.
So we had to kind of settle this thing a little bit. We had to kind of navigate the divide and figure out, like, okay, what is this platform? We were given no instructions. I had nobody like me to show me what to do. I learned this thing on my own, and I did it through rigorous research and observation and extrapolation. So the pioneer mindset is what’s behind this.
How are we moving people forward? How are we as professionals reconciling the value we bring into the marketplace? And I was meandering around in business at the time I saw this. And what LinkedIn did for me is it gave me an identity in the professional universe. I was doing SEO, which is search engine optimization. I was writing copy for websites at a time when the primary website was more important than social media presence. And it kind of evolved. And I had to wait for the rest of the world to catch up. And, that was the beautiful thing about it. And when the world did catch up, I was the guy coming up in search.
So the past of LinkedIn is, and sometimes it’s difficult to shake those roots, but it was intentionally a job seeker site at the start. It was in there with the careerbuilder.coms and the monster.coms at a time when the Great Recession was starting back in 2006 when I came to it. And then it moved into business development and people started to use it to sell products and services. And then they started to use it as mentoring platforms and community building platforms.
And the LinkedIn groups had taken on dimension and magnitude. They’ve since become cesspools. Somewhere along the line, people began to overtly and shamelessly self-promote on LinkedIn. And we’re at a point now where so much of what we do on LinkedIn is geared towards selling. We’re selling people at every turn. People are being sold. They’re pre-conditioned for a pitch. And that’s not the way to do LinkedIn.
I’m on record as saying that you’ll sell more products and services on LinkedIn by not selling products and services on LinkedIn. And to build something organically and have your reach, your marketing reach, be organic through your own experience and observation. And that’s where we are today. We are seeing a lot of this overt predatory sales behavior. It’s offensive, it’s intrusive, and it’s annoying, and I don’t teach LinkedIn that way.
And what does the future hold for this? The future holds promise for people that market…well, show up with intention. We have a content war going on right now. Content is everything. People are saying content left and right. It could be the most overused word on LinkedIn right now. Content, content, content. I mean, what is content? If it’s not content, it’s just musings.
And we started to see this at the onset of the pandemic when LinkedIn absorbed a lot of that initial shock, where people who were hungry for connection and to stay top of mind with clients and prospects and colleagues, had to hit LinkedIn, had to hit the Zoom. And that’s where they really discovered technology and refashioned it themselves as professionals.
Everybody that was coming to me, Andi, was in some level of a rebrand, or they were making a full-on pivot. And I had augmented my service offerings to handle that because it wasn’t so much about, “JD, write me a profile” or “JD, teach me how to do LinkedIn.” I felt that they needed to go through an immersive process of self-assessment and introspection to put themselves out there in a way that they would be taken realistically and at face value. And that’s been the essence of the work.
Andi Simon: You know, as you’re talking, I’m jotting down some notes because the direction of LinkedIn is something that we are directing. Is LinkedIn directing it itself? I don’t advertise on it, and I’m not quite sure how to optimize it for the books that I have or the forthcoming book or the products that I offer or my consulting services. But I’m bombarded all the time with people who want to have a 30 minute call with me to discuss whatever it is, not knowing whether I need it or I don’t need it.
And so I too have edged away from seeing it as a good place to support with information, marketing content, the stuff that I love on my website that people come and download, my desire to help the community that Peter Winick formed when the pandemic started to share with them. But I’ve given up trying to figure out what LinkedIn is doing and what I’m doing, and whether they’re aligned or not. Can you help?
JD Gershbein: Well, we have seen the arrival of a war, a content war, on LinkedIn. And on one end of that war, you’ve got the content, or I’m sorry, the creator economy. And on the other side, you’ve got the attention economy, and it seems like the two shall meet, but creators create. And you’ve got this incessant drive from so many people, which is really only a small swath of LinkedIn, I should mention, Andi. You’ve got people creating them, they’re writing books. They’re writing white papers. They’re out there on LinkedIn every day, like correspondents, talking about their professional lives, their honors, their achievements.
And on the other side, you’ve got the attention economy. It’s the regular folk who are just laying eyes on LinkedIn to just make sense of it and try to get one good thing to happen. You know, they need a client, they need a break, they need a door opened. And you’ve got these content creators who kind of espouse a certain way of doing things on LinkedIn. And I’m in that camp.
I do believe that if you’re going to go out there and parse your value out on LinkedIn, that you do it in a way that’s palatable. That it’s not just musings, but it really is in content that will help people build insight. And then you’ve got people that are just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. It takes a lot to get them to stop.
We’re all self-absorbed. We’re all into our own thing. We’re all trying to carve out our own livelihoods. So when your content or your work intersects with people, that’s a win. And if they’re able to engage on it, if they’re able to help you build awareness through their commentary and introduce you into their community, we’re seeing a lot of cross pollination of micro communities now and aggregated folks. And that’s what gives you spread on the platform. And the zeitgeist of LinkedIn right now is that there are people who feel that the LinkedIn platform works for a select few, when in fact it’s a level playing field.
Andi Simon: When I asked you the question, ‘How much of this is ours to create,’ whether you’re a creator or you’re looking for attention, or for a LinkedIn giving us guidance or structure or directing in some fashion, demanding. And I haven’t figured that out because I’m never really sure how much LinkedIn is doing or not. And how should people use it for whatever their benefit is. I mean, I am a person who has a product to sell, I get it. But others are thought leaders who want to express their ideas and insights to help others grow. Or you just throw a big rethink conference in. I want to make sure people can see the panels that we had if they couldn’t attend. Do you want to share? I’m a sharer.
JD Gershbein: What we make it is what we make it. And there is no playbook, we have to write our own playbooks at this point, Andi. And it’s how we superimpose ourself on the platform that works. That’s how we settle the frontier and our manner of expression, the mode in which we do it.
This has become interesting to me. I call it LinkedIn Style because everybody can learn the best practices. We know we should be polite to people and respectful and courteous. And there’s a formality and convention to approaching people. And LinkedIn provides that framework. It basically says, Here’s a place for you to put information about yourself. A profile here is the housing, the structure, the physical space or the intangible space for you to go out there and communicate, direct message people, approach them.
And how you combine the two has to merge with your own system of doing things. How much risk you want to absorb, how much of yourself you want to put out there. And what I try to do in my teaching and in my work is move people closer to some understanding of LinkedIn that works for them. It’s not about what I say or any other person who’s in my trade. I, for the record, I’ve never self-declared as an expert or a thought leader. In fact, I’ve lost a little fondness for the term “thought leadership” because it’s overused in first person narrative. I think it’s a been jargon and it’s an official buzzword.
But the real value of LinkedIn, and I find myself defending this value, is that it gives you an opportunity to individuate, put yourself out there as an authority figure. Build a brand if all goes well. Because a brand is not guaranteed to anyone. If you’re going to build a brand, it takes a lot of hard work and stick to it. So that’s where I think, to answer your question, where LinkedIn as a platform separates from the individuals who are using it.
It’s got to be our own take. There’s plenty of YouTube tutorials out there about how to use LinkedIn. I’m not concerned with the technology. Humans are good cognitive maps. They can learn the site, but the question is, how do they express themselves? How do they reveal or proclaim themselves to the world? That’s the style. And I borrow from the popular notion of style to talk about that.
Andi Simon: Well talk a little bit more because that is a really important element of all of this. I don’t care what social media you are expressing yourself on, what website you create, it becomes something else. I’ve had people download my papers off my website, yellow mark them before I go and meet prospective clients. And they said, Oh yes, we know you, we’ve watched your videos before you’ve even appeared so we pre-selected you.
I just picked up another client who found me on the internet. Now, the piece that you just said is very important because each of the social media platforms offer people a way to be expressive of what they do, how they help and so forth. But LinkedIn has its own particular gestalt. It’s a way that you are presenting yourself in a particular fashion. That style is not to be underestimated.
Do you have some dos and don’ts, because there are a lot of don’ts that I wish people would not do. And then I find someone who does something good and I go, Oh, how did they do that? What is it we should do? Some thoughts on the dos and the don’ts on that style question. That is a big question.
JD Gershbein: Well, you have to know the rules of style. And once you know the rules, in the words of Pablo Picasso, you can break them like an artist. And not that we should go out there and break rules on LinkedIn, because again, this is a business platform. It’s around professional conversation, and there’s a certain political correctness you have to observe and laws of etiquette to which we must adhere.
But for me, I borrow extensively from the men’s wear industry. I believe that style is closely associated with fashion. I’ve been kind of an insider there, and I’ve watched how people put themselves out there in the world. And I fancy a concept called enclothed cognition. It is kind of like when you look good, you feel good. And if you’re going to go out there and present yourself well and create this interest and arousal around you, you’ll feel better.
It’s along the lines of, when a man puts on a suit, when a woman puts on her best, go out there and they can feel their best. And as speakers, I know you speak, I speak. When you’re in front of an audience, you have to respect your audience and look as good as possible. And that gives you confidence, a surging sense of confidence from within. Same is true for LinkedIn. When you look good, when you present and represent well on the platform and know that you’re going to be researched well, it gives you this kind of added impulse.
I can’t explain it, but it just makes you feel better. It self propels. And that’s all I’ve done since the first time I’ve discovered LinkedIn. That first incarnation of my profile was designed to set me up when I wasn’t there to set myself up. And now that I know that I look good, I can go out there and reveal myself to the world in a manner that makes sense to me. I’m highly improvisational. I don’t teach people to be improvisational because there are more regimented people than I who feel that they need direction and structure and a checklist to do things on LinkedIn.
But I’m here to say that that’s a rule that you can break. There is no playbook. You go out there and you do what feels right to you on this site. And that’s how you start to meander into meaningful conversations and you start to gain interest in people. You see what they’re doing. You incorporate what they’re doing, a little bit of selective emulation, and you discard what’s not going to work. And we kind of cobble our own identities on LinkedIn. And that’s what people want.
I don’t like to use the ‘A’ word, Andi. You know what the ‘A’ word is, right? Authenticity. It’s just an overused word. But I’m the genuine article and that’s how I’ve become a leader by example in the field. I show people what’s possible on the site, but I don’t necessarily tell them how to get there. They have to discover that on their own. I just leave the horses to work.
Andi Simon: But you know, being who I am and who you are, you understand the power of symbols. Humans are symbol creators and meaning makers. The packaging you’re talking about is extremely important for people to make their persona meaningful. And the packaging isn’t inconsequential, but neither, you can’t be on stage at LinkedIn, but you are on stage in LinkedIn, and everything you do has to be either brand consistent or you got to be careful that you’re not shotgunning too much in too many ways so that nobody knows who you are and why they should turn to you.
And I don’t think that is as true, as well understood. Because the voice you use, even when you were writing my profile, I watched you use the skill you bring to say who I was better than I said, who I was and then turn it into a persona that I had to live. And I remember talking to you about it, that now gives me a platform to come alive. I was doing it without the framework or the package to be authentic, which is not a bad word.
But it is a very interesting opportunity to be seen and heard. And every time they say, You can post this also in this group, I say, Go ahead. Who knows where the group goes. But I enjoy the work I do on LinkedIn for sharing. I’m a sharer and I don’t need to own, and I don’t need to sell. I need to help. And if you need, I can enable or facilitate or help. And so that’s who I am, and what it is.
But as you’re looking, I’m thinking about what’s coming next. Is LinkedIn going to change again as Chat GBT comes along? Are we going to see it impacted by AI? Because I’m using chat with great joy. I love it. What are you seeing perhaps that LinkedIn might or might not be doing?
JD Gershbein: Interestingly, I’ve been selected to contribute to a few what they’re calling collaborative articles on LinkedIn. And it’s all AI-generated. And I’m starting to formulate some hypotheses around AI. It’s a little too early to tell as we sit here and have our conversation but it’s a good marker.
So we could make some projections and see if they come true or not, because we both are futurists. But you know, AI machine-generated content, it’s the antithesis of authenticity. And I believe we are approaching a time where people may question the provenance of a certain piece of content or writing.
I have not used Chat GPT. I’ve not looked at it. In fact, I have a disclaimer on my articles that says, “This piece is 100% JD, no Chat GPT,” because I don’t want to create the illusion that I’m getting my inspiration from a machine or a bot. I really work very hard to bring my intellectual property to the fore. And I don’t shortcut it. And we’re a shortcut happy society. Hey, if you can get out of doing the work, you will opt for that.
And granted, I didn’t read Moby Dick the first time around and I used the Cliff Notes to do my term paper. But it’s a little different now because if you’re going to go out there and front a platform architect, and speak in terms of original exemplary work, that better be original and exemplary and not conceived by a bot. And, bots leave off at human emotion.
I’m guessing that we’re going to find ways for bots to convey emotion, but for the here and now, if there’s any semblance that this looks too technical and two out there and too good to be from someone, it may very well be and it may be questioned. So I’m actually rooting for the people who are coming up with ways to check writing, to check for the authenticity of the piece.
Andi Simon: And my suggestion to you and to our audience is, I’m going to explore because the words you’re saying are without experiencing it. I’m using Google less and less and asking the questions for chat and coming back with fascinating answers that have a bit of humanity in it.
Before you delete it, explore it, because I don’t think it’s going away. And I also think that Google wasn’t perfect when it started. It’s gotten better. But Google is no different than chat. It just takes you to stuff and then you need to go work through this stuff, and then you got to figure out this stuff.
Chat says, Now here’s what I think. And literally I’m viewing it as another thought. Here’s what I think. It’s just thought, the same way Google is just thought, or you and I or just thinking, but it adds a dimension that’s well worth exploring. And being an explorer, I can tell you that you never know where it’s going to take you, any more than LinkedIn knows where it’s taking you.
JD Gershbein: I have every reason to believe that generative AI could help me in my trade, as people get more and more away from trying to plumb the depths of their psyche to bring something out of them and just go to the source. So I’m willing to look at it. I just haven’t done it because the work I do is process oriented. So I take my clients through an immersive process that is far from automated. It’s highly introspective.
Andi Simon: I enjoy looking at your clock, which says 1:20 and stays there. We can help our audience. First, tell them why the clock has not moved. And then secondly, tell them what JD does because you and I can discuss AI at another time after you’ve gone exploring with me. But I do think we’re about ready to wrap. So I have a couple things I don’t want our audience to forget, but before that, you need to tell them what that clock on the wall is, if you’ve been watching us.
JD Gershbein: Well, for the listeners, I have a clock that’s set to 1:20. I follow the Chicago Cubs, and that’s the clock from Wrigley Field. It’s at 1:20 because that’s game time during the day. Indeed. That it’s game time is my secret message to Cub lovers.
Andi Simon: Oh, well, when JD said that, I said, Well, it’s game time JD. What do you do to help people, give them some idea of the scoop of your work? And while I avoid advertorials, I do think that in today’s world, you could be of great value to many people. Please.
JD Gershbein: Well, thank you Andi. And thank you for the opportunity to come back and be a repeat guest for you. The core services are LinkedIn branding and LinkedIn advisory services. What the heck is that? Typically, business owners, executives, physicians, advisors, and high impact corporate contributors, retain me to write their profiles on LinkedIn to set them up for success and give them the deepest dive possible on the site through a highly immersive, highly iterative process and gain traction, if not mastery, on LinkedIn, although I think we’re never going to really master the thing.
Andi Simon: Well, how’d you know what I was thinking? Mastery. What a great word. There you go. Humans really do want to master things. They want autonomy. I love mastery, but I’m not sure about LinkedIn. I don’t think you can master an identity on LinkedIn that doesn’t just push you to new places. And I love the journey part.
JD Gershbein: Hence the pioneer frontier mindset. We get to one place and there’s always another place to explore right behind it. And that paces with each change that LinkedIn is gonna make. And sure as the day is long, there will be change.
Andi Simon: I’ve had with me today for my listeners JD Gershbein who tells you that since 2006, he’s been deeply involved in LinkedIn and would love to help you get deeply involved in LinkedIn. But I warn you, it is an experience, not an automated machine learning one, but a real personal one. JD, it has been lovely. Let me thank my listeners and thank you for my listeners and viewers who come. I can’t tell you how exciting it is.
I’m in the top 5% of global podcasts and I keep thinking that it’s a podcast, but it’s not. It’s a way for you to see, feel, and think in new ways so you can get off the brink and soar. So thank you for coming. Don’t forget both my books, which you can see behind me, both award-winning books and they are available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. But my new book comes out in September. You can pre-order it now. It’s called Women Mean Business. And it’s 500 insights from thought-leading women who are changing the world. And you will love this book. Every time you turn a page, you’re going to change your life. And even JD is going to find it awesome. So if you have a moment, pre-order. Amazon loves pre-orders and it’s there waiting for you. You’re going to find it a book with lots of good advice from people who you might have wanted to meet. JD, thank you again for coming today.
JD Gershbein: My pleasure. Thank you, Andi.
Andi Simon: Bye-bye now. Bye everybody. Have a good day.
Hear how anthropology helps you see your business through a fresh lens
It was truly a privilege and a pleasure to interview Dr. John Curran on our podcast. We met by way of LinkedIn, and I knew I had to share his story. Dr. Curran is one of the pioneers of organizational anthropology. Now remember, I branded myself when I launched my business as a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. At the time, I didn’t realize there weren’t any corporate anthropologists. I also quickly learned that people engaged me because they really needed to change, but they didn’t know what I did, or why anthropology could be of value to their organization’s strategy or business model or culture. Along the way, they learned, and then they began to see their business through fresh eyes. You will too. There is so much to learn from this brilliant anthropologist and thought leader. Enjoy, and please share.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
What is organizational anthropology?
And how does it apply to organizations? Well, today you will learn. My guest Dr. John Curran combines his expertise in the social sciences and group dynamics with process consulting and executive and team coaching. We both share the same deep belief that anthropology can open doors for people to “see, feel and think” in new ways, in his case—as this relates to products and customer experiences.
You will enjoy listening to us compare notes on our experiences, and how hard it is for people to actually see the same thing, even when they are standing next to each other. Anthropology’s theory, method and tools are designed to help us step back and realize that there is no reality, only an illusion that we call our reality. It is through the stories we share, like the ones Dr. Curran discusses, that we can capture the minds and lives of others and help them change, hopefully for the better.
To connect with Dr. Curran, you can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter,his website, JC & Associates, or send him an email at john@jcassociateslondon.com.
To learn more about the power of anthropology in business * Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy * Podcast: Gillian Tett—Why Can A Little Anthropology Help You And Your Business Grow? * Podcast: Rita Denny—Maybe You Need Anthropology To See Yourself In New Ways
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon. And as you know, when you come to listen to us, I’m your host and your guide. My job is to get you off the brink. What I want you to do is see things through a fresh lens. I want you to see, feel and think about it in new ways so that you can soar again. Often people come to us, our clients, or the clients in my book, On the Brink, come to us stuck or stalled. They couldn’t see what was all around them. Individuals do the same as we coach them.
The challenge is how can a little anthropology help you see yourself and your business through a fresh lens. I’m so honored today to have with us for an interview that I just think is so remarkable is Dr. John Curran. Let me tell you a little bit about why I’m so excited and then you will be as well. Listen carefully. Dr. Curran is one of the pioneers of organizational anthropology. Now remember, I named myself when I launched my business as a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. At the time, I didn’t realize that there weren’t any corporate anthropologists, much less that people bought me because they really needed to change.
What I did, they had no idea. So what I want you to listen to us talk about today is, what is anthropology and how does it apply to organizations. Dr. Curran combines his expertise in the social sciences and group dynamics, with process consulting, systemic executive and team coaching. See, we both sort of share the same kind of thing, and we research and work with senior leaders and their teams to develop dynamic collaboration for organizational cultures that connect their values with those of their employees and wider stakeholders. In short, John and I share a common world where we want to bring them the methods and tools of anthropology and that theory into organizations to help you do things better.
And humans are complicated critters. They hire me to help them change and then put me in the closet, lock the door, please don’t come out, “I hate change.” So it’s really interesting. So a little bit more.
Dr. Curran holds a PhD in social anthropology, formal training in organizational process consulting, executive coaching, systemic team coaching, a whole lot of stuff. He’s an associate consultant at the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations, which I hope you will talk a little bit about. He’s the owner of JC and Associates and a visiting scholar at the Royal College of Art in design anthropology. Now that we have so much good stuff to talk about today, it’s going to be such fun. His clients have included Coca Cola, Hallmark, Novo Nordisk, now J&J. Oh, a lot of the top companies and everybody else who wants to come and hear him talk. John, thank you for joining me. It’s been a pleasure to meet you.
John Curran: Oh, it’s absolutely wonderful to be on your podcast. And it’s one of my go-to podcasts. I learn from it all the time as well.
Andi Simon: Wonderful, then I will make sure that as I’m recording and bringing my guests that I’m your audience, it is interesting. John had a great article on how meetings are held. And I’ll get to that toward the end. We all are frustrated within ineffectual, dysfunctional meetings. And he said, just look at the roles people are playing and how they’re doing it. But let’s talk about you. What has your journey been? Share with us?
John Curran: Okay, it’s actually a privilege to share because you don’t really think about your journey much. And I knew you were going to ask me that question. So I did a little bit of thinking. And I guess I came into anthropology from a kind of indirect way. I think I became interested in culture, unknowingly. And my first ever real job was when I was playing, when I was 17, or 18. But my real job was probably when I was 20 years old. I failed all my exams at school, I was an undiagnosed dyslexic. So this idea of failing, it was, in that sense, you learned actually that you have to look in between the lines to survive. You have to hustle in a way, right?
So what I did was, I got a job as a keynote or domestic staff at a data center for the homeless in central London in Victoria. And it was run by Catholic Irish nuns. I was actually working with a homeless guy. And it was kind of fun. Then I started really taking on board the dynamics of what’s actually going on in France. It was a great kind of experience and journey. And in my early 20s, I started going to night school again and kind of got a diagnosis of dyslexia and got confidence back in me.
And it was then that I kind of realized, well, I’m not going to be able to do statistics, I need something that I can use my brain and my creativity, and this thing called anthropology emerged. And I remember reading quickly an introduction, you know, first few pages and shutting it, going, Right, that’s me, I’ve got it going. So I was very lucky. I went from Glasgow to the London School of Economics, which was the kind of founder of traditional British anthropology. And learned about Malinovski and all those great names.
And it was while doing my undergrad that I started working to make a little bit of money as a care assistant on psychiatric wards in hospitals and psychiatric hospitals. And it was then I realized that there’s my PhD, I’m going to do a PhD, I’m going to do it on the culture of psychiatric hospitals. And that’s it. So I spent two years being a member of staff and actually working the shifts as the ultimate participant observation for two years, and understanding power dynamics between the different sections, all the way from the domestic staff, all the way up to the consultant psychiatrists and the policymakers, and how that was played out and fluid and unpredictable on a daily basis.
So it was very much looking at the microcosms or the micro aspects of everyday culture, but making bigger theories around how policy and ideology and values and mission statements and actually how they actually do work out. So that was my kind of journey. I got my PhD and, and then it kind of developed from there. While I was writing my PhD, I got approached by Microsoft. This was completely outside my area. If I wanted to understand how people use mobile phones. That kind of led me for a few years into the world of innovation and the world of design and market research and advertising and branding. But I was always more interested in the aspects of organizational culture and group dynamics. And that’s where I sit now.
Andi Simon: Don’t you love it? I’m going to share just a smidgen of my own background. And you’ll know why, John, and I feel like we’re part of the same tribe, because I discovered anthropology as an undergraduate. And I went, Oh that’s me, just like you did. It was like an epiphany. And then I went to Columbia to get my last 18 credits in anthropology. I didn’t have to transfer. I went to Penn State, and it was just the depths of Conrad Arensberg and Marvin Magadh. And still, I mean, Ernestine Friedl became my mentor.
And it was like, how could you be the best in the world in a field that I just sort of became a religious believer in? I wasn’t even sure what I was going to do with it. But it sort of was who I was, as opposed to what I was going to do. When I met my husband 56 years ago, he said, What do you want to be now that you’ve grown up? I said, Well, I can either be an attorney or an anthropologist. He said, be an anthropologist. He also said, I’ll be here for you, which he is, but it was one of those supports. And I had no idea what it was going to be. But it’s served us well, hasn’t it? Wow.
John Curran: Yeah. I really like what you said there about how it kind of becomes part of you. So you don’t do anthropology for a specific career, right? You know, that’s a no-no. And it made me think about when I was doing my PhD at Goldsmiths University, which is part of London University. I had to do some seminar teaching for young undergrads. And what I would do, I’d get them to spend a week, and they would have to go and travel on London buses, you know, the red double decker bus, but they would have to spend half the week only going on the top deck. And then the second half will be going on the bottom deck. Look at the cultural differences of the two, so you could go into symbolism of gender or masculinity upstairs. And looking at binary oppositions and I remember the feedback that they gave me was, We can’t go anywhere now without looking at something logically. That’s right.
Andi Simon: And it only took that moment that you couldn’t bring them to Samoa, but you could put them on a bus, normal, comfortable, and give them a job to look at it through a fresh lens to see what was actually going on. And that’s when you say to people: humans are meaning makers, nothing exists out of context. And so the upstairs and the downstairs are two different contexts, same thing going on in a whole different fashion. You have had so many great experiences. Talk a little bit about how you got your PhD.
John Curran: Both fed each other. When I was working mainly in innovation, I would be wanting to add agencies to help the planners design and think in a certain way, anthropologically. The planners in advertising were very much anthropologists to a certain extent. But also when you think about innovation around medicine, or, you know, diabetes, the anthropologist can go and read it, understand how people live, are living out their experiences, how they might take, for example, a medical device that they use in their everyday lives, but how in their everyday lives, it has a different symbolic meaning. It isn’t just, it doesn’t just have the use value of say, administering insulin, it isn’t functional, it’s also part of the body. And when you bring in these anthropological theories and observations, you were able to work that back into the organization, like a medical device company, or pharmaceutical company, and challenge how they perceive the products that they they use as a means of being able to design for the person, designing for culture, designing for emotions, and not designing just for function.
Andi Simon: You know, it’s interesting, I was at an EPA conference a number of years ago, and one of the panelists said: “Why can’t we get our clients, the CEOs or the C-suite, to believe the research that we have done for them? They immediately deleted me. And I spent 10 years as an academic and then 20 years as an executive, helping banks and health care.” And what went through my mind, and I said it gently, was: They don’t trust what you brought back because you haven’t ever run the business. You’re helping them see something from the outside. You saw it, but they don’t trust that you really know what you’re saying. And if they had taken them with you, maybe they would understand what your experiences are to people? Do they really understand what you brought back to them? Do they apply it? How do we communicate? Because this is all about transformation.
John Curran: Exactly. Well, I think actually, Novo Nordisk, are a unique example, because they’re the ones who have got fantastic anthropologists internally. They’ve done some great work around ethnography, it’s very much part of their DNA. So probably a lot of their leaders will be going into the field as well or do go into the field. But if you think that by and large around companies, yes, this idea of when you do take execs into the field, it’s life changing. They all of a sudden realize that their products or the services that they’re offering customers, there’s a whole different world.
People appropriate brands, products, to fit into their lives, not the other way around. So then you’ve got another level, and then you start working well. If you’re looking at the values of your company, how do they align with the values of your employees, but also your customers, and then all of a sudden, you’ve got these kinds of concentric circles moving out and out, and then all of a sudden, you’ve got the holistic picture, and you can start thinking holistically with execs.
There’s also another problem, which has been around for many years, but this idea of risk. And when you’re coming back with just stories and insights based on theory, it’s not an Excel spreadsheet, it hasn’t got statistics, especially in a digitalized age with the world coming together. I think that’s probably less of a stigma nowadays. But, it definitely was a massive barrier. How do we quantify this? You know, we could do a survey of 10,000 people globally, but you’re going to only visit 20 people. I mean, that doesn’t weigh up, right? So you have to, there has to be a lot of education, a lot of even training for execs.
And the final area, which now does very much still exist, where this is what really put me back into the world of food dynamics and organizational culture, was silence. So if you’re thinking that you’re doing the best, most amazing piece of anthropological research around consumers, and you run the best workshop, and you’ve got whatever it is, everything’s on, it’s perfect. You’re not taking into account that the people who you are serving are coming potentially from cultures, organizational cultures, that are siloed.
So if you have engineers in the room, and you have marketeers in the room, and you have sales in the room, they are three different tribes. Different ways of thinking about what they need. They also need to protect their expertise, their identity, their subcultures, right? So if you enter this anthropology and we’re going to revolutionize it, we’re going to shock you, they will look at you and they will say, Oh, we can project back on to you, we’re not playing ball. So then you have to work in a different way with them. And you have to respect the silo, to a certain extent.
Andi Simon: The silo is there, and it’s not going away. And if you’ve hired people because they’re good engineers and good marketers and finance. You know, I was a bank executive. As you step back and you look, having conversations, even lunches with people, it was like, one was speaking Roman Latin, and the other was talking Greek and the words didn’t have any meaning for the other, and you needed a dialectician who could move from one to the other and make it real.
And as you try and make them now include the customer, who is a customer? And is it the buyer, or is it the user? And it’s a complicated world. And having said that, though, corporate anthropologists, anthropologists in general, have had a far better time of it recently, over the last I’ll say, five years or so, then earlier because we were academic misfits. I tried to hire someone from a university for a client and they said, no, we’re just training them to be academicians. I said, wouldn’t it be nice if they could help a business do better with their academic expertise? It was most interesting.
But I do think that business, the fact that Intel had anthropologist Genevieve Bell there, Microsoft has them, the government uses them. I think there’s a growing awareness that we don’t know what we don’t know. And design thinking has made ethnographic work extremely important, but it goes out and starts by observing. And you’re doing design work as well. What kind of work are you doing with the design anthropology?
John Curran: But the sort of design anthropology came about, again, out of the innovation, where I would be looking, and I’d be always very interested in. We could look at products and how people actually use products, as I’ve mentioned previously, but what I was, and I’m still very interested in, is the workplace. Some people say, anthropologists are designers by default. To some extent maybe. I think there was a lovely crossover there.
Traditional anthropologists aren’t really coming to a conclusion. They’re leaving things hanging, where the designer needs to finish something. But what I will be doing is talking to the world of design and architecture as well, around what does a workplace actually mean and now the unknown, that we’ve got differences with hybrid work and post COVID. But you know, what’s the symbolic goodness of space?
And a wonderful example, actually, was when I wasn’t a part of this. But when Lego started up their new headquarters in London, they used to have signs, which were little cardboard cutouts of VW camper vans, saying, Don’t park here. Meaning, you must be on the move, don’t make a place permanent in the workplace. Don’t eat your food there. And people started rebelling against that. That kind of thinking. Well, actually, if I want to eat my granola at my desk, I should be allowed. I should be allowed to do it. And that’s a really brilliant sign that you can think that you can design, affection that’s going to enhance collaboration and well being and all these things.
But if you’ve got a management system that is dysfunctional, it doesn’t matter what type of sofa, how many table tennis tables you’ve got, or how much free beer is on Fridays, it doesn’t work. So you have to actually think about what you’re designing for the unconscious as much as the actual function as well. So that’s what I try and put in the times. That’s what I do.
I think that’s a key thing of anthropology: to take what is given as a norm…I use kind of a brutal thing…you get a sledgehammer and you dismantle that normality. And that’s what the anthropologist does. You don’t take anything for granted. And you’re looking in between the lines. It’s a classic thing if you read Shakespeare, or Hemingway, or you read, you know, Alice Walker, you’re not reading the words, you’re not reading the sentences, you are feeling an emotion and you’re interpreting what’s going on. So that’s why the two of us could read the same novel and have a different interpretation. And that’s anthropology as a kind of ethnographic text, ethnographic writing. It’s interpretive. It’s extremely powerful.
Andi Simon: It is and it’s also the secret of our success, isn’t it. And so this is so interesting. So I made a note as I was thinking about this because Lego had an idea that really, maybe never they asked their folks about it, I’ll make it up. And it didn’t work the way they had anticipated. It always is interesting to me how a group of people, call it the senior folks, have an idea. And they forget that the folks who they are giving it to have no idea what they’re telling them, what the story is, what the expectations are. They’re not engaged in the design, and somehow they think it is going to percolate down. It doesn’t work that way.
And humans have stories in their minds. And we’ve learned from the neurosciences and cognitive sciences that you live your story. And you’re usually the hero in it. So I noticed that you also have a background in the brain stuff. How do you weave together the neurosciences with the anthropology, because I tell people, you live your life with the heart, and the eyes, and then your brain gets in it. And you have a story here. It’s trying to figure out what this is all seeing. What are your thoughts?
John Curran: Well, that’s a good point. And I think probably, I’m probably more with the brain around the kind of psychoanalysis, so that the neuroscience, of course, comes into that also, comes into culture. But I’ve always had an interest in the unconscious. You know, this is leaning on the likes of Freud, Klein, Jung, but then much more into groups, as well.
So Winnicott and Dion as well, who I’m very, very influenced by and what I find really powerful. And this is especially around group dynamics as well, but not just with dynamics in organizations, but in life, is that coming together of the anthropology, with the psychoanalysis or what’s been called systems psychodynamics, which is how the individual becomes part of a group, and how these kind of games and interactions that are largely based on the unconscious.
Okay, so this is a really powerful thing. And mentally, Klein was very influenced, or influenced a lot by that way of thinking. So we’ve heard these terms: projection, transference, countertransference. And if you bring that into also the world of anthropology and vice versa, you can be looking at team dynamics in an organization. And I’m looking at the unconscious structuring of rituals of events, rituals of change, which was of power and authority. Those are the three ones I claim or the big metal ones, the other ones going on.
Now, within those rituals can be things around gender, around misogyny, all these everyday issues are being played out as well. What we wear, the clothes where people sit around the table, all these types of things are unconscious, often unconscious, but they are forming cultural stories. The anthropologist Michael Jackson always talked about stories being the blood vessels of culture. We can’t have culture unless we have stories. Those stories are communicated often unconsciously. And that’s why I mean, I’ve trained, I’ve done the training, not the seven years training, but in group psychoanalysis. So that’s also rarely the group itself becoming part of the culture.
Andi Simon: Don’t lose that thought. Let’s emphasize it a little bit. Because this functional group is at war with itself because each of the people in the group haven’t come to terms with a shared story. Each is carrying their own agendas. We hear those words, but there’s something deeper than tactical practical stuff going on here. They really see themselves in a different fashion and that is very powerful. Now, how do we build there for better groups? Thoughts?
John Curran: Yeah, well, I think that’s a really good question. I like, in a way, starting with this idea that a group or let’s say, a team, and we’re talking about organizations, can always have an element of this functionality to it. Because that’s kind of what I’m entering into, and that’s what I expect. And that’s kind of okay to a certain extent, but a group needs to focus on what we call the primary task. That’s actually what we are trying to deliver.
And then, if you’ve got silos within the group or between teams, that becomes harder, and then there might be defense mechanisms being played out or anxiety then creeps up beyond the psychoanalyst who kind of invented this spoke about the basic assumptions in groups. And that’s often when things run on dependency, in other words, we’ll do whatever the leader says, or we all admire that. Or, we’re not gonna really have collaboration, or you have the things of fight or flight. We’ve heard this, but you know, I don’t want that change to happen, it’s going to threaten me and affect my professional identity.
So, along the journey, you can have all these kinds of stakes in the ground of this functionality. And the way that I work with them and I’m passionate about this is, I’m kind of trying to sell it. It sounds like I’m selling myself here as the external consultant. But it’s trying to empower teams to have this element of being reflective of themselves. And when I talk about empathy, I don’t talk about empathy as a nice kind of word, how it’s being played out. I don’t even talk about empathy, walking in the shoes of other people. I think the first real thing about empathy is being empathetic to yourself, which means having the ability to challenge yourself and be honest about yourself.
So if we were in a meeting, and I felt that you were being defensive or trying to derail my idea, I might not tell you that, but I walk away feeling something in my stomach. And the next meeting, I’m sure I’ll bring that back into the meeting. So how are we about coaching? It’s about the term psychological safety. How do you create psychological safety where challenges can happen?
And there’s one of my colleagues at the Tavistock Institute. Camilla, she talks about creating an environment that is psychologically safe enough, so not psychological safety, but psychological safe enough. What’s beautiful about that concept is it’s allowing for this functionality. It’s allowing the people in a team to have different levels of what safety is. If you’re a woman, if you’re from a different race, if you’re white, male, heterosexual, these different personas, or cultural toolkits you’re bringing into that space. So psychologically safe enough. Think about creating a culture of reflection.
Andi Simon: And the challenge is really important. Not easy. Do you have a case study where this has worked? Or you’re working on one that you can share?
John Curran: Yeah, I think that’s great. I’m doing a lot of work with executive teams and they are highly pressured. They are highly pressured, they’re all coming out of post COVID up there, and not just the exec teams, but the middle management and below are all feeling exhausted. Yet they need to think about the primary tasks. They all need to be facing the same way.
A lot of the exec teams and senior management are having to create what this idea of hybrid working means. No one knows what it means, no one knows what the future will be right now, either. So what I will be experiencing is that there are tensions, but those tensions will not be exposed through team coaching or facilitation.
There’s a process that I use: we do qualitative, kind of semi structured ethnographic interviews with all the key people individually, and I’ll bring that into the space. And then I reflect back what people have told me in confidential, but what people have told me, and then everyone feels uncomfortable, because they’re experiencing uncomfortableness, or what they’re experiencing is what they realize deep down is the truth. And then I’ve kind of got them, I’ve got them contained, and I could say, if this is you what you told me, now how are we going to work with it?
And I can be the object of projection, so they can go, You’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong. And this is great, carry on, you know, it’s no problem here. But I’m also in that space, I’m being the anthropologist. I’m seeing the workshop setting as an ethnographic space. So I’m also decoding what rituals are happening, the fences and all that, even the uses of cultural artifacts, the flip chart, the who’s gonna get up and do these…it’s all data.
Andi Simon: But it’s also very challenging, isn’t it?
John Curran: It’s not easy to do and you are dealing with human beings. And this is where it’s very different from being an anthropologist in the world of say, innovation, where you go in and you’re experiencing sensitive stuff, but you go out. I’m containing a group. And it can fly off the handle at any moment. And you could say something wrong that could spark. So it’s challenging. And it’s also draining. And you need the supervision structure below you. And that’s how I use a lot of supervision, as though it’s the therapeutic space.
Andi Simon: I can keep going because I’m fascinated. Before we do wrap up, though, share a little bit about that newsletter with the article about meetings. I think it’s practical, but very insightful about that. I’ll give you the context. When I got into health care, 1520 people would come together routinely for a meeting. I was an ex-banker and an anthropologist, and I was sitting there trying to figure out, what we are doing here? There was no agenda, there was no takeaway. I didn’t have any idea of my purpose, and nobody bothered to tell me either. But we met and when I dug into it, they said, Oh, that’s what we do. Okay, we come together, it doesn’t really tell me about meetings.
John Curran: But I gave a talk and it’s online. Actually, I’ll send you the link as well, at the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations, and the Tavistock invented, what we know is organizational development. In 1947, I think so. And it creates this idea at the time that was being born out of the Second World War, about having to understand how teams work in the military. But coming out of the war, it was looking at issues around the coming together of the social sciences with psychoanalysis to understand how organizations work.
So anthropology was there pretty much from day one. This is something that we need to really write about in the history of anthropology. But it’s looking at the meetings. I gave the talk, and I hear so much about having too many meetings. And this was the name of the title in lots of the business journals, and the newspapers, the financials, lots of things about meetings as destroying everything, especially online and zoom.
And I came, I flipped it as all anthropologists should do, is flip something and say, maybe this term “we have too many meetings here” is a defense mechanism. And what I started to do is look at the ethnography of meetings, and meetings that I sat in to realize, actually, they are communicating lots of other things beyond the primary tasks. So meetings should be there to make a decision or sharing information or resolving conflict. These are meetings traditionally before, but actually, I saw that actually, people would use meetings as a means of checking each other out. What are you wearing?
But meetings are also there as a means of trying to drive change, but there is conflict that isn’t being dealt with that exists within the meeting. So therefore, it’s too fearful, we won’t come to a decision. Okay, so we’ll have another meeting. And we’ll have another meeting. So meeting becomes an avoidance of conflict.
So I was trying to show actually that meetings have so many different dynamics to them. And what I introduced was a model that I’ve created or tool called the Culture Empathy Map. And it’s a step process that people, either consultants or anthropologists, can use, or it’s something I train leaders to use. And that’s how you decode the rituals by being the anthropologist in the meeting. What’s actually going on? And how do I know to prepare for that? But also, how do I know to reflect afterwards, based on that? So it’s called the Culture Empathy Map. And it’s a tool not just for meetings, but also for workshops and group dynamics within organizations.
Andi Simon: You’re almost trying to make them see the world of this as an anthropologist might. And you need to step out and look in as if you weren’t part of the meeting if you’re going to really understand what’s going on there. If not, you’re going to be a participant in that game, as opposed to an observer of that game. As I said, good leaders sit and listen and watch for a while before they participate. Because you really don’t know what’s coming at you until you watch. But if you’re ready to respond to everything, and get involved in it, then you really are going to be part of the problem, not necessarily a leader to take you out of it. It’s an interesting thing.
John Curran: That’s so good about the idea of listening as well. Leaders need to listen to learn, not listen to respond. Once you’ve done the learning and you’ve done the reflection, then he will respond. That’s a really good point.
Andi Simon: Well, even as I’m listening to you and myself, the tendency on my part is to try and take what we’re talking about and put it in the context of things that I’ve experienced. I’m trying to make it relevant in some fashion, reflecting, perhaps, but I’m going to urge our listeners to listen carefully to John telling you whether it’s in a meeting or in your business or in your family life. Before you jump in and answer, wait, listen, because what you think you heard isn’t really what they said nor what they meant. And so consequently, you have a lot of interesting things going on here in terms of the dynamics.
So on that note, I do have to wrap us up, because as much as I love talking to you, it’s such a pleasure. It’s truly an honor, I’m having such fun. Thank you for joining me today.
John Curran: Thank you so much. It’s wonderful. It’s an honor to be on your podcast.
Andi Simon: John, if they want to reach you, where will they do that?
John Curran: I’m on Twitter, at Dr. J. Curran, LinkedIn, I’m quite active on LinkedIn as well. My website is JC and Associates. And I’ve got a podcast called The Decoding Culture podcast. And there’s also a newsletter called Decoding Culture. So those are the places you can find me, I’m out there somewhere.
Andi Simon: I’ll make sure that’s all on the blogs, and people can find you even on the video at the back of it. Thank you for joining me today. For our listeners. I know you enjoy our conversations. Keep sending us great people to talk to. I found John on LinkedIn or a post of some kind. I went, Ah, let’s do it. And he was so kind to come and join us.
So now remember, my books are available at Amazon. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. And it’s about 11 women who did just that talk about change. And On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights with a little anthropology to help you see, feel and think in new ways is why On the Brink with Andi Simon emerged as a podcast. And I love doing this. So send me your thoughts at info@Andisimon.com and we’ll get back to you right away.
My new book comes out on September 26 and is called Women Mean Business. And it’s the wisdom of 101 trailblazing women who are sharing with you their insights. They very much want to help elevate other women. And I must tell you as you read their wisdom, you go, “This is like a bible of all my best stuff.” None of them were profit driven. They want to help others. They build networks. Very interesting, culturally, listening to women from different industries talk about the lessons learned and how to share it. So I’ll send you a copy as soon as it comes out. Take care now. Thank you all. Thanks for coming. Stay well, stay safe. Remember, turn your observations into innovations.
Hear how changing your perspective can lead to a great idea
For today's podcast I had the pleasure of interviewing Nathan Richter, CEO of Nature's Key, his medical marijuana company. Nathan shares his personal journey with using medical marijuana as a sleep aid and a supplement for his workouts, and how it led him to become a leader in this emerging industry. We also discuss the fear of change and the importance of embracing it as a way of exploring new solutions to old problems. Nathan's journey with medical marijuana serves as an example of how innovation and adaptation can lead to success. Much to learn here! Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Many people hear marijuana and think "stoner" but that's no longer accurate
According to Nathan, medical marijuana can be an important alternative to harmful coping mechanisms like alcohol or hard drugs. Listen in as he shares his personal experience using CBD, as well as the potential benefits of medical marijuana for sleep, exercise recovery and overall health.
Nathan predicts that hemp and cannabis will become disruptors in modern-day industry by promoting sustainability and regenerative farming practices. He believes that as more people become educated about the benefits and safety of these products, the culture will shift towards acceptance and normalization. Sounds like a Blue Ocean model! To connect with Nathan, visit his LinkedIn page or his website, Nature's Key.
Want more stories about embracing change and finding innovations? Try these: * Blog: Change Is All Around Us But It’s Terrifying. So How Do I Make Change My Friend? * Blog: Everything Is Changing. Is This A Great Time For A Blue Ocean Strategy? * Podcast: Michael Tate—Are You Terrified Of The Pain Of Change?
Additional resources for you * My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights * Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. As you know, I'm Andi Simon, and my job is to help you get off the brink, to help you see, feel, and think about things in new ways, and to find people who are going to help you open your mind to possibilities when you may not be really aware of them, or even paying attention to what you know already.
Often, I find that the fear of the unknown, the fear of failure, is so overwhelming that humans just fly the other way. That old part of your brain says, don't touch it, don't do it. Don't please make me do it. I'm happy where I am, but maybe I need something to help me change.
So today I have with us a wonderful person, Nathan Richter from Kansas City. I met Nathan at a workshop I was doing on culture change. This was a very interesting group of people who really got into the whole idea of what is culture, the essence of who we are and how do you change? And out of that, Nathan reached out and said, "I have a story to share. I'd like to share it with your audience and let's see if we can help people do something that they may be afraid of."
Remember your brain hates change. The pain of it is really painful. And today you're going to be a little bit painful, but not much because now you are going to learn something new that's going to help you really perhaps solve a problem. Nathan, thank you for joining me.
Nathan Richter: Good morning, Andi. It's so great to be here and thanks for having me.
Andi Simon: Well, it's so much fun to share with you, so that's my pleasure. Let me read you a little bit about Nathan's background to set the stage, and of course then I'll let him tell his own journey. It's a great story. He was born in Oklahoma City, as he says. He's a graduate of Mustang High School, which I always enjoy sharing, and the University of Oklahoma and Oklahoma City University School of Law. He began as an attorney, but before he began his legal career, he was a geneticist and he also served in the Oklahoma Army National Guard and was deployed to Afghanistan to support Operation Enduring Freedom in 2003, where he received the Joint Forces Commendation Medal and other awards. Doesn't surprise you, wait till you hear his story.
He's served in a variety of leadership positions and he's currently serving as CEO of Nature's Key. But I do think that today's story is about Nature's Key, and because he has a particular interest in helping you understand the problem or challenge he faced and how something called medical marijuana, which you've heard about, became a solution that might not have been something he would've gone to out of Ordinary Nathan. I truly enjoyed listening to your story. Share it with our listeners. And who is Nathan, what has your journey been like?
Nathan Richter: Well, Nathan is Nathan. Nathan's another human being that just likes to serve other human beings and I appreciate you reading a little bit of my background and frankly, setting the frame for your podcast, because it's one of the most beautiful things about life is that change is constant. It's a given and there's nothing we can do about it, so we might as well embrace it. And that scares a lot of people because we don't understand the unknown. And if we don't know what we're facing, then we're afraid of it. But life's full of it, right? Life's full of changes. It's full of twists and turns and pivots.
And my story is kind of one of those that I hope might help some of your listeners. I was by and large your rule-following kid growing up. I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma, raised in the church, and you know, by God, we were rule-following law-abiding citizens. And, medical marijuana, which didn't even exist at the time, was one of those taboo things. By and large, on every Saturday morning between every cartoon, we saw the commercial about the frying pan and the egg, and this is your brain on drugs, and it goes in the frying pan.
It made an impression and I would have never, ever tried this particular plant or this particular product for any reason. Because of that, I went through school, went through college, was always gravitated towards leadership and leadership positions, serving on boards and serving on committees and things like that, and was fascinated by science.
So, I got my bachelor's degree in genetics and worked initially on the Human Genome Project. The lab that I worked for at the time was sequencing human mouse and plant genome DNA. They were mapping that, this was the late nineties, so you know, now you think about companies like 23andMe and you go, Wow. But they were working on stuff back then.
I served in leadership positions in the military. You mentioned I was deployed in 2003. So early in the war Operation Enduring Freedom, my unit was deployed to Afghanistan and life-altering experiences there. Then, I served as a trial lawyer, which also gave me a lot of life-altering experiences and things that I saw and people that I represented. All of it led to, about four or five years ago, a situation where I had moderate PTSD. I was having problems sleeping. I struggled to sleep following my return home from Afghanistan. But, by and large, I managed it fairly well until, frankly, the stress of life and everything caught up to me.
I began coping with alcohol, things of an unhealthy nature. I was prescribed some sleeping aids to try and, you know, help me overcome my sleep habits. Ambien was one of them. I will never take that drug again. I took it and had the worst hallucinations I've ever had. I didn't sleep. It was awful. So a friend of mine, my brother actually, said, "Look, medicines aren't for you. We all know that you're not an over-the-counter or really even a prescription medicine guy. You never have been. I know this is also not for you. You're not an illegal guy, but we want you to try medical cannabis to sleep."
So I did. I I took his advice. I took a low dose edible and learned how to manage my sleep without the escapism that most people associate with cannabis and CBD, and it was a life-altering change for me. Literally, I believed in the change so much because of the experiences I had, the positive experiences. I went from sleeping two hours a night, Andi, to sleeping eight, nine hours of the night. And it wasn't just the amount of time, it was the quality of sleep.
And I'm one of those data geeks. I wear this little fitness device. I track all my sleep, I track my workouts, I track my health, my fitness, my heart rate, all of that stuff. And so, not only did I feel the change in my sleep, quality of sleep, quantity of sleep, I saw it in the data. I was getting better sleep and I felt more rested. I was more productive, so much that I invested early on in a business. I believed in it that much. And then ultimately, a couple years ago, took over and started running my company.
We have a CBD company and we have a medical cannabis company. What we do now is educate and try to help people understand that the world of cannabis is not one of escapism. It's not partying. It can be. There's certainly that side to it, but there's also another side to it. And that is that really high functioning people that have stresses and normal sort of aggravations in their life who don't necessarily ascribe to things like pharmaceuticals and narcotics, can find an alternative to cope with those without the harmful coping mechanisms.
We've come to know, like alcohol, other hard drugs, things like that. And so that's my pivot. That's the change that happened in my life. I will tell you and your listeners that it was not an easy decision to pivot and go and lead a company versus practicing law. I had my own practice for about 15 years. So shutting that down and transitioning to the business world was scary, terrifying in many regards, especially to move into a startup and an emerging industry that's very volatile and very unknown.
But it's been one of the most exhilarating changes. I've been fortunate enough to help over 60 kids and hundreds and hundreds of adults understand how they can use purpose-driven products, which I call it, purpose-driven products, to live a better quality of life. Whether it be through a workout, whether it be through sleep, they're finding a better way than using or leaning on man-made pharmaceuticals that have really terrible side effects that they end up having to take another pill for the side effect.
So it's been very exhilarating. It's very fulfilling in this change and had I been scared, had I been worried about the unknown, I probably wouldn't have the joy I have in my life right now.
Andi Simon: Did you know, Nathan, we always preach if you want to change, have a crisis or create one. You had reached crisis moment, had you not?
Nathan Richter: I had.
Andi Simon: What is most disturbing as I look at our society today is the percentage of people who are full of anxiety, depression, and not having fun in life. You know, we know that life is a gift, and if you can't sleep well at night, your mind doesn't go through its regimen to reorganize itself, to get your stories. The mind is extremely important. And if you can't sleep, you wake up and you can't really function. And after a while, you're dysfunctional. Your body is dysfunctional.
And sometimes we don't even know what the catalyst is for that mind that's running away. But it's not an uncommon phenomenon without people knowing what to do about it. As we were talking before, and I'm listening to you, I think our listeners need to understand where and when to use medical marijuana. You know, what is it? Is it smoking something? Is it eating something?
I always hear a friend of mine who went up to a town in New England, a college town, pulled up to a little place to get lunch only to find out that all the food was imbued with marijuana. And she really didn't know what she was looking at or buying. The age differences certainly cut in there, but it's becoming not quite ubiquitous, but it is becoming more available in different ways.
And, for listeners who may have a bit of a crisis or want to know how it could apply to their lives, how do you begin to educate them? Your point about, I've educated dozens of kids and dozens of adults. We're in the top 3% of podcasts globally. Educate my listeners. What do we, what should we do?
Nathan Richter: Well, so what I'd like to tell people about the medical cannabis world is that it's not your grandpa's weed. It isn't the stuff that you bought or that your grandpa got from his buddy in the sixties. In the world that we play in, medical cannabis is incredibly potent. It's highly concentrated, it's highly, I hate to say refined, but it's grown in such a way that the strains and the percentages and the content is very, very high potency.
So what I would tell people is, I think the stats show that mental illness has more than tripled since the pandemic. A lot of people are looking for something to escape their problems. I don't like to tell people to use medical cannabis to escape. You don't need to drink to get drunk. You don't need to consume to get "high." So what I like to tell people is, you know, microdose your relationship with cannabis. Start low, start slow and layer it with a lot of CBD.
So if you're a non-user, you've never been introduced to it, you're not familiar with it, you really don't know where you're looking for CBD is where I would start. I would start with a very, very low dose amount of THC. We call it full spectrum CBD, that is, a CBD that comes from the hemp plant that contains the lesser amount of THC that makes sure it's compliant with the 2018 farm bill. The United States government passed that and carved out the definition for it.
So you're looking for a full spectrum CBD product that would be where most people should start. If you're an ordinary, or a regular, I should say, cannabis user, and you're familiar with the industry and you know kind of what's going on, I would say people need to look for, those folks already know kind of what works for them. But if they don't, CBD, which is a cannabinoid, minor cannabinoid, and low dose amounts of THC. The entourage effect works really well to help people sleep.
When I say low dose, what I mean is less than two milligrams of what's called Delta Nine THC. That's the chemical that most people associate with cannabis. When you hear the word cannabis, most people think Cheech and Chong. That's Delta Nine. That's where the brain goes. If that's two milligrams or less of that, we call that a microdose.
So you want to make sure that whatever you're consuming has a lower dose of that. If people are looking for sleep, which it's a billion dollar industry, most everybody I talk to says. I'm tired and I'm busy. Those are the two biggest things I hear. How are you? Well, I'm tired and I'm busy. Okay, well, why are you tired? Well, I didn't sleep well last night. Why didn't you sleep well? Can’t turn the mind off? I hear this all the time, a common problem.
And so what I try to explain to people is with a base amount of CBD, let's say 25 milligrams of CBD at night in an edible format, so a gummy, and then lower than two milligrams of THC. So two milligrams or lower of THC is going to create an effect in your body that's going to allow the THC to turn your mind off. And then the CBD causes your body to relax and go to sleep, and you stay asleep longer and you get a better quality of sleep.
But it's the synergy between the THC molecules turning the brain off, and then the CBD allowing your body to relax that causes you to get really great sleep. If you have too much THC, so if you go to the 5 milligram or the 10 milligram, that's going to create some anxiety. So I try to tell people, stay low and slow. Then once you learn your dose, anywhere between one to two milligrams of Delta Nine, 25 to 30 milligrams of CBD, and you start to feel that sleep, you can dial it in and you'll know when you're there because you'll have the best sleep of your life.
That's how we tell people, start low, start slow. But 50% or more of Americans have tried cannabis at some point in their life according to some studies. So everybody's at a different place in their journey with it. So the can of curious, as I call 'em, the people that have never tried it low and slow, if you're already in your journey, make it more purpose driven, try to drive it towards sleep. Journal and track your results and you'll find your therapeutic dose.
Andi Simon: What's interesting listening to you is essentially launching a rebrand of marijuana. I have a farm in northern Westchester in New York, and I have a barn and I met some folks who knew a gentleman who had lived there and they said, Oh yes, they grew pot in their attic and we had pot parties in your barn. Are you going to do that again? I said, So funny. I've been there 50 years, so you can imagine the time. And they did leave us their pot plants in the attic. I didn't quite know what to do with them and I didn't know about the pot parties in my barn until years later.
But I had friends who would come with us on a vacation and they would be smoking. We didn't, neither my husband or I ever did, but clearly some folks liked it. I still have a friend who will start a dinner party and go outside to smoke for a little while, relaxing her so she can come and converse with us. People have used it for all kinds of different things.
This is identifying something that people can use it for to go into good health because that sleep can be extremely valuable to them. You were telling me about all of the signs that came out of a good night's sleep on your wrist, your blood pressure, everything became happy. I'm not going to say it was happy because you were smoking. It was happy because your body had slept. Describe that a little bit.
Nathan Richter: I'll use my heart rate as an example. Before I started using cannabis as a sleep tool, I was tracking my sleep and my heart rate would fluctuate at night anywhere from 25, 30 beats a minute. It might drop to 65, to 50, maybe 55 at the low end to all the way up to 70, 75, and it would be pretty erratic throughout the night. So what that heart rate was telling me is that my body's not settled, my heart was pumping faster at some point in time during the night and slower during others. Obviously slower when I'm more relaxed, obviously faster when something is keeping me up, whether it's a noise or whether it's my mind or whether it's something going on.
So I just saw an erratic heart rate throughout the night. As I started using cannabis as a sleep aid, I found that my heart rate would naturally descend as my body relaxed and then level out. And my heart, my resting heart rate, went from in the mid to low fifties to the mid to low forties and sometimes in the high thirties. I'm a runner, so I'm very physically fit and I've got a very strong heart rate. But to see that change from being sort of erratic to more of the descending heart rate told me that my body was naturally relaxing, falling into different states of sleep, appropriately, and not being pulled out of those states of sleep, but instead staying in those states of sleep to let my body do what it's supposed to do.
The most remarkable thing that happens with our bodies is that they can heal themselves. That's right. Like, it's incredible to me that you can get a cut off your skin and it goes away after a couple of weeks since your body can heal itself. We know through the sleep studies that our bodies heal themselves primarily at night when your body really starts its rejuvenation process. And so I saw just with my heart rate alone, that my body was going through the natural stages of sleep and the natural cycles appropriately.
And then I was feeling it in the morning, waking up, going, Man, I feel refreshed. I feel focused, I'm clear, I'm energetic. I'm jumping out of bed. I'm ready to tackle the day instead of pouring myself out of bed, you know, struggling to stumble to get a cup of coffee. Just a totally different energy once I realized how I could use it as a sleep tool.
You know, there's a fun side to cannabis. You talk about pot parties, right? There's a fun side to it. There's no doubt that there's a lot of people out there who enjoy the fun, the party side of it. But, what we miss is that there's actually a purpose-driven side to it as well. And the plant's been around for tens of thousands of years. The Chinese learned about cannabis as a medicine thousands of years ago. So we've known about it for a long time. We just haven't been able to study it. We haven't been able to discuss it. We haven't been able to really research or do anything with it because it's been illegal for so long.
So now we're starting, people are starting to become aware that it's more than just a reefer madness, let's escape and go have a good time. It actually can help you with a lot of things from nausea to antiviral, antifungal, sleep, some massive anti-inflammatory. So people are finding great benefit from it despite the stigma that really surrounds the plan and has for the last hundred years.
Andi Simon: What else besides sleep? Sounds like many things that might be addressed with a pharmaceutical of some kind, can perhaps be managed with medical marijuana in a different fashion and enable people to feel better.
Nathan Richter: Yeah, so I'm a guy that spent almost 10 years in military service. So I've got bad knees, bad ankles, bad back. I I love to run. I love to work out. My runs were painful. During the run, I would feel the heaviness after the run. It would take me two or three days to recover.
Using primarily CBD, but using it pre-workout and post-workout, I cut my recovery times in half. I shaved almost a minute off my run times. It's kind of a nice little vitamin supplement, if you will, for your body that brings about something we call homeostasis inside your body. We're a big giant chemistry experiment, right? And when one chemical's outta whack and the other ones are not in balance, then we tend to find ourselves not behaving and not acting, not thinking like we should, not like ourselves.
So, CBD brings about that homeostasis and lets your body do what it does best, heal itself and operate. So I ended up shaving a minute off my run times and cut my recovery times in half. I mean, it was remarkable what I saw just from a workout perspective, much less the sleep perspective.
Andi Simon: I don't mean to interrupt you. You're intriguing me. You're intriguing my audiences as well. If people were thinking about this, and sharing with their support networks. I mean, sometimes people are more comfortable if there's someone to talk to about it so they don't feel like they are...the worst thing to be is to feel consciously incompetent. And if you're moving into a new area, and I have a hunch you were exploring, but you did it before, are there networks, are there systems that can help them make wise decisions?
Nathan Richter: There are in almost every state that has a market, whether it be a recreational market or a legal medical market. There's all kinds of Facebook groups out there with people that are trying to educate, trying to teach, trying to help people.
I like to turn people on to the foremost CBD women's health expert, actually out of New York. Her name is Dr. Jane Janelle Chen, an excellent resource for any information regarding CBD or medical cannabis. She is a tremendous book of knowledge and has been using CBD and formulations and medical cannabis formulations in her practice for quite some time. Dr. Chen is a great resource.
The internet of things is full of information. Unfortunately, it's full of a lot of misinformation. My CBD company is actually called Transcend, www.transcendlife is our website. We've got some resources on there. You can reach out to us. We're happy to answer questions at any point in time. On the medical cannabis side, my company, which is called Nature's Key, we actually have a whole education arm where Joe Hagers, my business partner, co-founder, he heads up our education arm. He talks to patients every day, tries to help guide them and suggest things to them that might help with whatever ails them.
So depending on what state you're in, I'm sure there are resources there. Most of the time it's on Facebook but there are also great websites and great experts in the field that can help guide people as well and help give them information.
Andi Simon: People have said my podcast is a top 10 futurist podcast, and I always ask the question, What do you see coming next? Because humans are futurists. I mean, if we can begin to see, we feel more comfortable doing today. Where do you see both CBD and medical marijuana, the culture around us moving towards? If we were all happy folks, that would be one thing, but there's so much that could be useful. This is not arsenic. This is better than not doing anything. Help us see where you see things going.
Nathan Richter: If I had an hourglass and I could look into a crystal ball and I could look into the future 10, 20 years from now, I think what I hope I see is that hemp and cannabis have become great disruptors in the modern day industry. What I mean by that is what we're seeing trendline-wise across the world is, we've got to be more sustainable. We've got to be more regenerative. We can't continue to assault the land like we have and the environment like we have and think that the world is going to continue to be as beautiful and as wonderful as we find it. We got to take care of it.
We do that through farming, agriculture, methodologies and technologies. And what we're finding with hemp and with cannabis is that that particular plant, just from an agricultural standpoint, is incredibly robust. It's a plant that can be grown, three to four crops a year outdoors, one crop a year, three or four crops indoors. It's a plant that provides great benefit and nutrients back into the environment in which it's grown.
And on the hemp side, it can be used for everything from paper to plastics to clothing to concrete. You can use that product to manufacture a lot of different textiles and things that are kinder to the environment and potentially more cost beneficial to the businesses. And so I think what we'll see in 10 to 20 years from now is hemp becoming a major commodity. It'll be used as an input material for various manufacturing operations and various types of products that you see today. I think that you'll see it start to show up in more cosmetics. Health and beauty and wellness have really learned that CBD topically is a great skin nourishment and skin vitamin. I think you'll start to see CBD and maybe even low dose medical cannabis sort of infused into some products that you'll see in the health and beauty sector.
Then I think on the cannabis side, you'll start to see it over the next 20, 25 years be introduced in the supplement world and recognized as such. But unfortunately, I think you're going to see a split and you're going to see the medical side of cannabis by and large go one way. And unfortunately the vice side of cannabis, that recreational side goes another. There'll be a place for both, but where they end up, I don't know.
Andi Simon: Well, I don't either, but at least you can have the early stages of what you see. It's the conversations that people are crafting. Remember, humans are meaning makers. We create meaning out of stuff. And hemp isn't inherently good or bad, until we begin to see ways that we can use it for ourselves and for different purposes. Slowly this country is beginning to see how to change something it thought was bad.
You remember prohibition got alcohol to go into the back rooms. We have this pension for taking things that aren't bad or good and giving them weird meaning and then overusing them sometimes. But, I do think there was a period where over-abuse of drugs, and even now there are hard drugs and it's hard to separate out which are the good guys from which of them can be bad guys.
But it is a time for us to think about the conditions that we live in and how to help people address them in a different innovative fashion. You know, I'm a Blue Ocean strategist, and Blue Ocean is about creating new markets. You are a Blue Ocean guy. You have a great red sweater on. I do love it. I do like red as you can tell, but I think we both should be in blue today because we're swimming in a blue ocean and we're not quite sure where we're going, but we're creating the market for tomorrow.
So as we're about ready to wrap, two or three things you'd like our listeners not to forget other than who Nathan Richter is and where we can find you. Some thoughts that you'd like to share as your last thoughts.
Nathan Richter: So, the one thing I would want people to remember about me is that I was put on this earth to serve others. And that's what I do every day. That's what my company does every day. And I hope that when people get out of bed every day, that's what they do. They serve others. That ripple effect makes the world a better place, whether we have it in our little small community or the bigger world at large.
So the three things to take away from that is, One: always keep God in your heart. Two: mindset matters. It really does. Three: lead with love. Because if you lead with love and kindness and you have your mind right, you're going to have the biggest impact you can in the world.
Andi Simon: You know, Nathan, to teach part of the science of wellbeing and for us to be healthy isn't a hard act of kindness, it makes us feel better. Saying thank you is a gratitude. It makes those hormones in your brain, the oxytocin, go, Oh, this is wonderful. And the act of doing it is as important as receiving it.
Then, you know, running like you do or exercise, eating well, that's not that hard. You got to figure out what the good guys are but here's something new that could help in that whole mix of things and really take your wellbeing, particularly sleep, but perhaps something else that's keeping you up and keeping you challenged and helping it diminish so that every day is a gift. You know, you don't want to waste this. The present is the only moment you've got, and before you know it, it's gone. Right? And that's right.
Nathan Richter: The most important thing we have. When I ask people, what's the most important thing you have in your life? And most people are like, it's my wife, or my kids, or my husband, or my spouse or this. And I'm like, Nope. It's the next breath you take. I promise.
Andi Simon: Arnold Schneider of The Atlantic had a great quote: "I understand death, and I get it. I'm just pissed by it." I can see him saying it. Just pisses me off.
This has been such fun. Nathan, where can people reach you? And I promise I'll put that in our blogs and podcast and all the rest, but the best way to reach you or to reach Nature's Key or however to find out more about what you do?
Nathan Richter: Best way to reach my companies is go through our website. So Transcend Life will take you to the CBD company, and Nature's Key takes people to the medical cannabis company. Best way to reach me is through email. It's nathannatureskey@edibles.com. I'm also on socials. I'm on Twitter, that's really the only social site I'm on.
Andi Simon: This has been a very interesting conversation. I'm so glad you reached out. I'm so glad we had an opportunity to educate and inform our listeners of something that could be of great value to them. I promise I'll get your podcast out quickly and we'll share it for my listeners. I'll do my normal wrap.
My two books are there for you. They're here to help you. You know Nathan's point, why do we do what we do? I do it to help others to share wisdom and hopefully give you something that might help you. You see yourself and others in a fresh light. So On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is there to help you run your business better. And Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is a startup for my new book, coming up with Edie Fraser and Robyn Spizman. And it's coming out in September, actually September 26th, 2023. It's called Women Mean Business. And it's the amazing wisdom of 101 trailblazing women.
But all of us want to elevate others, amplify the message, help people see the world through a fresh lens and not think that everything is lost. You know, I often say, if you want to change, have a crisis. I hope you don't. But I do think that you shouldn't waste a crisis either. And what Nathan has done is taken his own crisis and turned it into an opportunity to help others, both to get a good night's sleep, but also to see the benefits of that. If it's not just sleep, it's not just the dreams, it's really to feel really energized the next day and really living a great life.
So for all of my great listeners, send me all your ideas for wonderful people info@andisimon.com. And I'm going to say goodbye. Please stay healthy, stay well. Remember we help you take observations and turn them into innovations just like Nathan did. It's been wonderful, Nathan. Thank you for coming. Bye.
Hear why strategy without accountability doesn't work!
I met Aviva Ajmera when she invited me to speak to her groups of CEOs in Kansas City. We hit it right off and had an exceptional time learning about each other and the type of work we love to do to help companies grow. Working with teams, CIOs, CEOs and C-suite level executives, Aviva knows how to bring out the best in them, their collective wisdom and perspective. She loves to build strategic plans but she also knows that unless you create action plans to go with those strategies, they don’t go anywhere, no matter how great they are. They have to be a product of the organization. Our conversation is full of ideas about how you can build a great strategic plan for your organization, and actually convert it into a business plan that works. Listen and learn!
Watch and listen to our conversation here Three themes we discuss that are very relevant to our listeners
- Engage the entire organization in the planning process. They have great ideas. Don’t shut them out. And the plan will be much easier to implement if your teammates are all involved in building it.
- Execution must be part of the discussion. As Blue Ocean Strategists, we know how challenging it is to move an organization forward. Don’t make it more difficult. Think carefully about the plan and its implementation at the same time.
- Put a planning process in place so you can see progress, celebrate small wins and redirect if necessary. No battleship is ever turned with just an oar.
Connect with Aviva on LinkedIn, her website SoLVE, or via email: viva.ajmera2@gmail.com.
Want a strategic plan that will actually stick? Try these suggestions for ideas:
- Blog: Everything Is Changing. Is This A Great Time For A Blue Ocean Strategy?
- Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy
- Podcast: Mari Ryan—Time For A Big Strategy For Your Company's Well-Being
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide. You know, we've done almost 400 On the Brink podcasts, and divide that by 52 weeks, that's a whole lot of years sharing with you ways that you can get off the brink, and soar. My hope, my purpose, my joy is helping you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can have that aha moment when all of a sudden your brain goes, Oh, that's what I can do.
So I find people who can help you do just that. And I'm looking at a beautiful woman today who I met in all kinds of ways. Let me introduce her first, and then I'll tell you a little bit about how we got connected and what she's going to talk about today. Aviva Ajemra is a beautiful woman from Kansas City and she helps companies do all kinds of wonderful things to help them grow. She's going to tell you more about her own journey.
But I met her because she invited me out to speak to a group of hers at a CSuite Solutions event, really a marvelous organization, and I spoke to three of them about culture change. I had a great time in Kansas City. And so my reciprocity was to share your thoughts with my audience. And she's laughing. But I do think that we're purpose-driven in the sense of wanting to share what we know with others. And it's more about helping them than it is about profits with them. It's great fun! But all of us are looking for ways to be of help. And that gives us a great kindness. Aviva thank you for being here with me today.
Aviva Ajmera: Thank you for inviting me, Andi. It was such a joy to meet you in person in January. And I felt like we had an immediate connection. So it's really fun to do this at this point in time.
Andi Simon: Well, thank you for sending me all those great pictures. I truly didn't realize that's what I look like. But that looks pretty cool. Tell the listeners about your own journey. Who is Aviva? And how did you arrive at where you are now? So then we can set the stage for the wisdom that you want to share.
Aviva Ajmera: Absolutely, happy to. I can honestly say my journey was very unplanned. I wonder, is it serendipity? I believe in serendipity. Is it destiny? I believe in karma and destiny. But I also believe in a plan. I am a very planned person. I think it was really the combination of all three that got me to where I am today.
When I think about how I started as a painfully shy first generation Indian girl to immigrant parents growing up in upstate New York. I went to college in Texas. That was a big leap, a big step forward. I ended up living in Minneapolis, joining a consulting firm, moving to Kansas City, which was never on my radar growing up in New York. Back in 1995, I joined Hallmark Cards, and then I left corporate without a job to go to when I was there 15 years. But I just felt like that's what was right for me.
I ended up joining an international consulting firm. I was a partner there for seven years. And I was traveling all the time, and my little girl was growing up. And that's how I decided to start SoLVE, my strategic consulting firm here in Kansas City. And then this year, I started my new firm, the one that you came to speak to, called C-Suite Success. So I never would have thought growing up the way I did, super shy, really kind of sheltered, that I would now be the CEO of two companies in the belly button of America.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, I'm a big believer in serendipity. And I do think there's a path. I just don't know what the next step on that path is. And we are all talking about what's next because we've reached that phase where we're pretty successful. And we sort of know who we are. And the journey has so many interesting uncertainties to it and is full of challenges. But you're an important part because you've been inside a company helping it grow. You've been a consultant helping companies grow.
You now have your own business, helping them grow. And watching you lead these groups that I spoke to, they have a magic relationship with you. They listen, and they're learning at the same time. So share with us some of the wisdom of what you learned as you went through this, and some of the things that you're doing now to help companies see, feel and think in new ways, because you have that magic.
Aviva Ajmera: Oh, well, thank you so much. That means a lot coming from you because I know you work with hundreds and hundreds of companies. Well, really candidly growing up, my mom and dad were amazing parents but as immigrants, they didn't grow up in the US. So I didn't have the benefit of a lot of role models as I was growing up or approaching college, thinking about career, grad school, etc.
And what I found is that I was really blessed. I had so many mentors, before the word mentor even was like a word that got used in corporate America all the time. And I feel like they always saw something in me that I did not yet see in myself. And I'm so grateful for that. So as I work with teams, CIOs, CEOs, C-suite level people, and then usually their next one or two levels down in my consulting practice, my goal is always to bring out the best in them, to bring out that collective wisdom and that collective perspective.
Because I work with them, I'm building strategic plans. And I know that strategic plans don't work when only the leader has created the plan, or heaven forbid, the consultant has created the plan. It has to be a product of the organization. And as I do that, and I spend time with clients, trying to figure out how to bring out the best in them, what I realized is a bit of a shift that's happened in corporate America in the last, I would say, easily 10 years, but maybe even it goes back further.
I was lucky in that when I started out at Accenture, they had and still do, a really robust training and development plan. Most companies don't have that anymore. And they don't have it because they can't afford it. And it's definitely been a common line item to cut out over the last four to five years. And so what we've done with C-Suite Success is bring together all of these eager, high potential people wanting to grow, wanting to invest in themselves and create cohorts.
So we have a CEO cohort, we have a C-suite cohort, and then we've got that next level, all of which want to continuously learn, continuously improve, and they need a safe place to come and talk, to come and recharge, and to be able to learn together and talk about applications for each of their companies.
The folks in our groups cross any industry. You can imagine: profit, nonprofit, family owned, public, everything, because what we find is that issues are the same. And the ways that people want to grow and develop professionally, it doesn't matter what kind of company you're in, it's all pretty common. And so that's what I would call the magic of how our groups work together.
Andi Simon: You know, magic is interesting, because the trust factor is high. And when they come in there, they almost have to shed their fear of failure, or not looking professional, or being the CEO or the C-suite leader that is expected among their peers. I mean, I've done Vistage now for years. I think I've done 500 Vistage talks and I'm always fascinated by the CEO. For those of you who don't know what Vistage is, it's an organization that brings in speakers, like myself, to introduce ideas to their members.
And, it becomes an interesting way of getting a feel for what's happening. When I went to Aviva’s group, a wonderful group, different people and they were all coming in, shedding their concerns about who they were and what they did. And they came in sort of open-minded to see what somebody else could share with them and help them grow. And growing is very hard when you hit a certain point. So as you're working with them, and even problem solving, is there some approach that I heard you say? Are there certain approaches you take, for example, to build a strategy with a client that helps them see it themselves?
Aviva Ajmera: Yes, it's multi-step. And it happens over time, because it is at the core, what you said, it's a relationship. So with consulting engagements, the very first thing I do is send a survey out. It's all open-ended questions. And then we talk on the phone, then I interview them. And we usually spend an hour on the phone. So I work very hard to create a unique one-on-one relationship with every single member of the strategic planning team. And oftentimes, some other key stakeholders; sometimes it's board members, sometimes it's other people that aren't on the team, but they are big influencers in the organization.
And we talk a lot about trust. And it's actually one of the principles when I kick off an engagement in my consulting firm. We talk about how we're going to work together and we talk about how when we are together, it is a safe place. There's no judgment, and we're going to have trust. Now that doesn't mean you have to agree. It just means you have to be comfortable. enough and feel safe enough that whatever's on your mind, regardless of what your level is in the organization, we want you to contribute because we think your opinions are important, which is why we've asked you to be on a team.
With C-Suite Success, it's a little different because we've got folks from different companies. With our CEO group, they all represent individual companies. But we have an interesting secondary dynamic in our C-suite group. And in our key leader group, which is, sometimes we have two folks from the same company in our group. And candidly, I was really curious to see how that would go. Would they feel like they couldn't open up because of somebody else in the company that's listening. And in fact, what I found was the exact opposite. They felt a sense of partnership and a camaraderie because they had somebody that was hearing them express a challenge or an issue that they had, and the other person genuinely wanted to help them.
We had one meeting where someone was sharing that she felt very frustrated, because she felt her role could have a wider dimension than the leadership was allowing her to have. And the other person from the company in that group said, it makes me really sad that you feel like that and I want to figure out what I can do to help you not feel like that. And, I mean, I was just watching it happen. And I was like, Oh, I love this so much.
Andi Simon: But to your point, people within a company play their roles, but don't have time to be honest with each other. Or, she wasn't even looking for help, she was just articulating her feelings. And being who she was, she was ready to see it through a fresh lens, which was beautiful.
But it's interesting to watch people because people are so challenging. I mean, they're trying to do a good job, and they don't know: I can't do more, I can't hang in there, and then I get shut down.
When you're working on the strategy stuff, you said something important, that is, you help turn it into an execution. We do a lot of Blue Ocean Strategy work. And the hardest part is to turn a great idea into an innovation. You know, we often said our tagline is From observation to innovation because it's hard to see it. And then once you see it, what are you going to do with it? What kind of tools can our listeners learn from you about turning those ideas, a strategy, into an implementation that actually works? Any thoughts?
Aviva Ajmera: So many thoughts. And you are speaking my love language when you talk about strategy and implementation. So you know, anytime I talk to a group, and frankly, when they're interviewing me, and I am also interviewing them to make sure it's a good fit, I ask them about previous strategic plans. What did they like? What did they not like? What worked, what didn't work? A common theme of what didn't work is, We built this plan, then nothing happened.
If I have a client that experiences that with me facilitating the work, that means I have failed. That is absolutely not what I want to do. So when I work with a client, I make it very clear, we'll build you a strategic plan, but the more important work is actually the implementation plan. And the key aspect to the implementation plan is accountability. So for every single initiative, you might have 30 initiatives under a particular strategy. You have a timeline around it, you have metrics around it, and you have a person that is in charge of making sure it gets done. And then follow up.
I tell them, even when we create the plan, it's based on what we know. We create three year strategic plans, but we're doing it in the current-state timeline where you are going to live the plan. So I teach them, it's a living, breathing document, really like our journey in life is, right? Things are going to change but we are building the best plan we can with what we know today.
But I teach them how to think about how you adjust. And I really encourage them to do monthly check-ins, and my most successful clients do that. They check in every single month. That way things don't slip. If people are struggling, they can share it. They can talk about what adjustments do we need to make, and then we continue to move forward toward their big three year plan goals.
Andi Simon: It's always been interesting to me how even when I was an executive in banks, I was an executive in three banks, and we would build the strategy. And yet the idea that this was business every day was sort of an anathema to the folks who somehow knew they had to create this thing. And it was done. And then we could go back to doing our job. And the two were so disconnected that I watched and I wondered, what is this that we're trying to do, this thing called strategy?
And then the other part that was disconnected was the goal of all of this, so we had a strategy to get someplace. The daily business was different from what was in the strategy. And some goals that we were trying to get to, that was sort of elusive at the end. How interesting, how business was run. And now that's unacceptable. You can't do that. Let's start backwards. Where do you go? I had one healthcare client with a 44-page plan, can you believe that?
Aviva Ajmera: Oh, that just sounds painful to me. That's never going to happen. And then my 15 years at Hallmark Cards, and I am grateful for my career there. I grew and just bloomed while I was at Hallmark. But I remember every single year, we had a different senior manager in charge of leading strategic planning. Well, guess what that means: every single year, the format of strategic planning is different.
And I remember when I was young, like late 20s, coming out of grad school, the concept of a strategic plan. I'm so excited about it, right? Like I learned how to do that when I was in grad school. When I came to the company, when you're 27 years old, and you're an individual contributor, you're not involved in the strategic plan at all. You are given these big corporate goals, and you sit there, I did anyways, and I would say, where am I going to fit in? The strategies are way bigger than my sphere of influence. The goals are numbers I don't control. I don't have visibility so I get maybe a twice a year update, maybe an annual update.
And so the way I do plans is just really different. And I tell the organization as we're building it, and then I tell them as we're recapping it: everyone in the organization should be able to see their role in the plan. And if they don't, that means we didn't build the plan properly. So it is a little bit of a pressure test even as we're building the implementation plan. That doesn't mean every single person has something they're accountable for, but that they should at least be on a team that is accountable for a particular initiative.
Andi Simon: One thing that we've begun over the years to realize is that you also have to tell people what they're going to stop or not do. Those are often fascinating to me, because they'll say, Of course, we can stop that. And then you go observe, being the anthropologist I am, I don't even ask them, I go watch, and I watch the thing they're going to stop is the thing they do every day.
Habits are so powerful that they know how to do it so well, even if it has no value anymore. And I had one client and I said to him, You know your clients don't need this. "That's what we do," he said. I said, "But they told me what you're doing. So how do we change this so it fits where you're going, as opposed to where you have been hard to let go?" Have you found the same?
Aviva Ajmera: Absolutely, absolutely. It's exactly what you're saying. It's habit. And it's comfort. That doesn't mean that it's right, it doesn't mean that it was wrong to do it when you started doing it. But just as all things evolve, it might not be the right fit for where the company is now, for where their clients or their customers are today.
So how do you break that habit? You make a list. You make a list of what's new in the plan. Whate are you going to start doing? What are you going to stop doing, and you syndicate it. You syndicate it with the board. You syndicate it with the senior leadership, and you syndicate it all the way through the company.
Now we know behaviors take time to change so we have to hold each other accountable. And there are fun little things you can do, you know, awards of the month, that focus on the change that you're trying to create, or other types of recognition that keep it alive, in the energy, in the culture of the company, to make sure that you're reinforcing. Not only are we articulating what we want to change, but we are reinforcing it by recognizing the new changes and the behaviors, and then soon they become a part.
Andi Simon: But to emphasize this with our audience, the brain remembers what you celebrate. And so if you really want that person to stop, we're not even going to stop smoking, or just try doing procedures that are already automated that they're doing with paper again. But anything that you really want to demonstrate, you record. Recognize the effort that went into changing, it's celebrated. Because the brains of the people you're working with will remember what you praised. And if you don't, it won't think it's important. And those are not incidentals, it's not sort of an afterthought. Or even a thank you note, a little act of gratitude, can have a huge opportunity cost for you.
As somebody will say, Oh, this matters, I didn't know. And the other part is, I love teaming people up. Because if you can team them up, there's another person who's watching. And then if they trust each other, then they can talk to each other. Like those two people in your C-suite program. It's interesting, we do things for others and with others, but on our own, we go back to what we've always done. And we're not happy to be asked to change it. Change is painful. It's really hard.
Aviva Ajmera: Yeah, it's so true. I mean, you taught us the idea of a funeral. And I'll tell you, all three groups were like, We love that idea. One of the things I do with the groups is, every month, I ask them to tell us about what you've implemented from the last speaker that you heard. And then I also do it quarterly as a way to try to reinforce reminders to take this great learning that you got from spending a day with me and a speaker, and make sure that you're actually implementing and embedding it in the organization.
Another simple technique for a company, a lot of times, I will ask them to send me a year's worth of agendas, send me your agenda. I want to see what you talk about. Is your agenda just an update, or are you literally having a discussion? And if you've got new behavior that you're trying to instill, where are you giving it some time. It could be a stand-up meeting, it could be a formal meeting, it could be a newsletter, it could be anything, but where are you recognizing and calling out these new behaviors that we're wanting to encourage in an organization.
Andi Simon: The hardest part is to make them feel competent, to take the ideas back and implement them. You know, it's not like learning golf in an hour or two or three with a club in a book and hitting the ball. Although I've done that, and it's not easy to do. But you have the humility that comes with it, the vulnerability of saying to their colleagues, you know, this is something that I heard and I really think we should try. Let's, you know, we don't have to fail or not, let's not fear failure, let's try.
And I share that with our listeners, because you need a language and a conversation for implementing the new, when your folks are going to immediately walk away and resist you, pretending you didn't say the words you just did. And they don't even know that their brains are fighting it.
Aviva Ajmera: Absolutely, absolutely. Another technique I've learned over the years is something I'll call converge and diverge. So the converging is listening to what the change needs to be. The diverging is breaking into small groups and brainstorming, coming up with ideas. And then you come together again, and you share those ideas. So it gives everything a little extra juice, a little extra validation. And many times when we do that, in our groups, one group will say, Ooh, I really like that. Can I borrow that? I'm going to have that list too. And it's really fun seeing when energy builds because they're learning from one another.
Andi Simon: It's interesting, I have two, three leadership academies: one four years, one three years, one five years, and the interaction is less about me than it's about them and what they can learn from each other. To your point: only about having time to think out loud, and to be able to share ideas that are sitting there and bubbling up but don't have a place to come through. And always there are great ideas coming often down in the trenches, because they're closest to the work being done.
But even all the way across the whole thing, it's fun to watch people ideate all of a sudden. They go, Ah, you know, I can do that. And all of a sudden it becomes part of their story, not someone else's. I love it.
So my question for you, my podcast has been ranked among the top 10 futurists podcasts, but I didn't know I was a futurist. So I asked my listeners, my viewers, pardon my interviewees to share with our viewers. What do you see coming? Anything in particular, as you're working with both your customers, your clients, your members of your group? Are there key themes that you hear particularly as we're coming out of the pandemic? What's coming?
Aviva Ajmera: A few common themes. The first one that came to mind was health. So self-health, mental health, it could be relationship health. I think for me, I know the pandemic, because it was so abrupt and everything kind of stopped. I mean, my clients put work on hold for nine months until we realized this wasn't going away. We needed to adapt and figure out how to do our work in a virtual way. They work with me, not their businesses, but I think it gave us all that time that we have to live our life in a way that naturally feels good to us, whether that's how you start your day, what you eat, exercise, who you talk to, all of that.
And then as we now create this new normal and kind of reenter, nothing is 100% like it was prior to March of 2020. It's all an adapted version of it. And I think most of us are still figuring it out. Because those norms are gone. So we're creating new norms. So an openness for employers to understand that their employees are seeking that, and there's no right answer. I really feel like the right answer is just talking to your employees.
The other one that I see across all industries, and even with my angel investing, really is the idea of partnership. So you might call it networks. You might call it mentors. You might call it really just business model partnerships. More and more, I see companies recognizing for them to reach their fullest potential, having strategic partnerships is how they really will soar. Because it's really hard. Just like any one person cannot be an expert in every single thing called life, any one company cannot necessarily be the expert at every single thing they need for their company to live its fullest potential. And that's where I see a lot of partnerships coming into play.
Andi Simon: I think of the well-being and of all kinds of healthcare, behavioral health, mental health, family health, I mean, the health. You know, the tragedy of the pandemic, truly was a tragedy, but it's opened us up to every day is a gift. How will we live it? And then how do we find the benefits of our days?
But the other part is this partnership concept. Uber has shown us you don't need to own everything. And I do think that once you take a look at what Airbnb or Uber or others have done, you realize that the market has lots of ways of solving a problem.
And I had one client and I said, you know there are lots of ways of solving your situation. You don't have to have it all. And who could you connect people with? Because they're asking you for things and you say we don't do that. Well, you don't need to do that. But that's a recurring theme. I get it. But you know, in the past, I said yes, but that kind of strategy works, then maybe today's strategy isn't about we don't do it. But how can we help you to different conversations?
Aviva Ajmera: Right, exactly. How can we facilitate it? So I think of two words that come to mind. One is insights. So what are those customers or those client insights? What need is needing to be met? And then the other word is ecosystem. And I feel as though that word has really evolved and grown over the last, I'll say, five to seven years in a way. I've never seen it happen before. And I see it in my clients. But I also see it in my startup companies that my angel invests in: the idea of ecosystems, supporting one another is so incredibly powerful.
You kind of conquer, you help each other conquer those learning curves faster because I've already figured that out, or I've already looked into that and let me share it with you. So back to that partnership word versus holding everything close to the vest and it's like, No, I paid my dues. I figured it out. You could figure it out on your own. I see that going away.
Now I will say, I live in the Midwest, and I know that the coasts and the cultures are a little bit different. But I see it on the coasts as well. I really see it all over the world as I have friends and family that live all over the world. So I think there's a synergy that comes from ecosystems and partnerships where it clearly can be a win-win for the people working together.
Andi Simon: Well, in some ways, it is a reflection of us coming to terms with, I don't need to do it all, and we can help each other. And we both can prosper much more easily then being proprietary, even intellectual property. People say, can I access your stuff? I give it to you, you know, enjoy it, use it, let me know how I can help. And it becomes a very different dialogue, and I'm going to protect it and hold it, and you got to pay for it, or you've got to do something with it.
It's a time when I think the multiplier is really more interesting than the protector of the isolated. Because, you know, I met one person and the work I was doing, he had 98% of the market share for his particular product. And I said, So what does that do for you if you own the market? It's a market growing as a market shrinking, what else can you do for them?
And the reason I love thinking out loud, like you and I are doing, is, what else can we do? Where are their unmet needs? And how can we be a value beyond simply the thing that we do? It's no longer a product to sell as the service or solution. So I love to solve. It really captures what we're trying to do with solving each other's problems together. Well, we can talk, you and I for much longer, but I think it's time that we summarize for our listeners, one, two or three things that you don't want them to forget. I made a bunch of notes myself, what are some of your takeaways?
Aviva Ajmera: You know, I think I mentioned to you, my daughter is 21. And she's graduating college this year. I'll be 55 this year. It's interesting that I am almost 55 talking to my 21 year old daughter. What I wish someone had said to me at that age causes you to reflect on your life. Like, where would you have taken bigger chances?
When I think about three lasting thoughts, the first one is about network. And network sometimes is a scary word. Use whatever word you want. It could be ecosystem, it could be other people, you know, whatever. But it's about not only building your own, but also realizing your friends' network can be your network, your family's network can be your network. And as you think about your mentors, I would say have lots of them. You're going to have mentors at different stages of your life for different reasons in your life, just like all of your friends, just think big. Think wide.
The other thing is, I told you, I love plans. So yes, have a plan. But be willing to change that plan. Because you have no idea how once you start living the plan, how your thoughts and ideologies might change a little bit, how your experiences will influence what you value, and what is most important. And part of that is being a continuous learner. It does not matter how old you are. We just learned how to play pickleball. I'm learning things in pickleball that I can apply to my business life. Well, it's a really wonderful thing.
And then the last thing is really what you asked me about as far as big changes that I'm seeing. It's about taking care of yourself, because for those of us, which is most of us that are high achievement oriented, right, very goal oriented, you will acquire those titles and that monetary status, you'll acquire it, just assume that but none of it matters if you don't have your health. If you don't have healthy relationships, people in your life that you can enjoy that success with and know that your definition for success might change when it comes to material acquisitions, but taking care of yourself is always the same. Do I feel good every day? Am I happy every day? Am I healthy enough to go enjoy what it is? I've said in my life, I want to go try that or I want to go visit there, or whatever the adventure is for you.
Andi Simon: You know, Aviva, I am going to a pickleball benefit, not too many weekends from now, and I said, How do you play pickleball? I'm trying to make my golf game at least competent. And I have to learn another game? And maybe because that's where all the action is. Even our golf clubs would open up pickleball courts because that's where all the people are. And they were at a membership meeting and I said pickleball and they looked at me, I said, that's where all the growth is. And it's fast and it's easy, and it's fun. And people come because they enjoy it. And so let's enjoy ourselves. So it's an interesting time. Thank you so much for the conversation. It's been wonderful today. Thank you.
Aviva Ajmera: Thank you, Andi. I always enjoy talking with you and I am very grateful for the opportunity to be on your podcast.
Andi Simon: Well I just love sharing wonderful people like yourself. It's so much fun to talk about what I love to talk about, which is strategy and how to grow people and their companies so they can live happily ever after. It's not a fairy tale. And one thing I want to make sure you understand is, hope is not a strategy. So I have a hunch Aviva would agree with me. Every time they tell me the inbox, or word of mouth, I just want to say, you hope somebody finds you and somebody will do business with you. But that's not a good strategy.
So, for all of my listeners, thank you for coming. It's always fun. I love sharing and this is a great opportunity for me to share with you a little of our thoughts, lots of good people who want to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Don't forget my books are available on Amazon. My new book comes out in September of 2023. It's called Women Meaning Business, and in it are 101 women trailblazers with great wisdom to share with you. I can't wait to show it to you. It's almost coming. But right now, I want you to remember that I love your emails, send them to info@Andisimon.com. That comes right to me and Simonassociates.net is on a new website and it's all so much fun. Thanks Aviva. I'm going to say goodbye. Take care. Bye bye now. Bye bye.
Learn how to discover who you ARE, not just what you do
There are moments when I meet someone on our podcast who truly takes my own breath away—and I hope it does yours as well. Elizabeth Rosenberg is one such woman. We talk about her journey filled with trauma and burnout that led her to rethink her life. Rather than keep pushing herself within large corporations, she shifted her focus and launched a new career, helping others discover their inner worth and "secret sauce.” She's intuitive, she's compassionate, and I really believe she's what the world needs right now. As you listen, you may rethink your own life.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Do you know how great you really are?
Being a branding guru, Elizabeth knows that people often hide their best selves from others, and even from themselves. She helps clients look inside and see what greatness is already there, and then free it so they can “soar.” Listen in and ask yourself, “Aren’t I a great 'brand' ready to be free of the anchors holding me back?”
About Elizabeth
Elizabeth Rosenberg is the founder of The Good Advice Company, a marketing and communications consultancy that works with C-suite leaders and corporate executives to create their personal brands, while discovering their purpose along the way. You can connect with Elizabeth on LinkedIn, Twitter and her website The Good Advice Company. You can also email her at Info@thegoodadvicecompany.com.
Ready to rethink who you are and where you're going? For starters, dig into these:
- Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times!
- Podcast: Diana Wu David—Are You Truly Happy With How You Work, Not Just Where?
- Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You?
- Podcast: Roshni Pandey—To Find Your Happiness, Assemble The Kind Of Life You Want
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to help you get off the brink and soar again. I go looking for people who are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can step back like an anthropologist, observe what's going on and really begin to think about who am I, where am I going, what's my company all about and how do I fit. There are really deep questions that give you some awareness, reflection, resilience, but unless you can be a little anthropological and look at it through a fresh lens, you get so caught up in it, you're not quite sure what's going on.
So today, I have a wonderful woman with me. Her name is Elizabeth Rosenberg. Now, Elizabeth is going to tell you her own life's journey more than I can tell you in her bio. But she is on a real quest to help others begin to see themselves. I'll call it their personal brand as she does, but it's deeper than that. It's not casual. It's not in their dress code, it is in who am I and how am I really living the life I want to live? And if I'm not, how do I find that life?
Remember, during the pandemic, you heard a lot about "you only live once." Well, this has been the case forever. And every day is a gift. So how are we going to make it easier for you to live the best life you have, knowing better who you are, what you're looking for, and how to get there. Elizabeth is shaking her head. I'm going to turn it back to her. Elizabeth, thank you for joining me today.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: Thank you for having me. That was one of the most, I think, beautiful and perfect intros that I've ever had. So I very much appreciate you having me on the show.
Andi Simon: I mean, you don't want me to ask you three questions and then we'll be done. That's not our style. For our listeners and our viewers, Elizabeth came to me by chance. And I wasn't really quite sure why. And as we talked, I know there's good reason for you to listen carefully because she's got a message that you're going to want to know more about. And so I'm going to let her talk about her own journey because it has some catalytic moments in it. And I must tell you, everyone I'm bringing on has a crisis of some kind, some catalytic moment where their brain goes, whoosh, there's something going on here. Please, Elizabeth, who are you? Tell us about yourself.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: My name is Elizabeth Rosenberg, and I'm the founder of The Good Advice Company. To many, I am a marketing and communications consultant and a personal branding expert. But I think to my friends and my clients and my family, I'm much more than that. I really love to dive into exactly what you were talking about: the who and the why. What is our legacy? What are we meant to be? Why are we meant to be here? What are we meant to do?
My story is fairly simple, and I think is probably very relatable to most. I've had a 25-year career in public relations and marketing. A few years ago, I experienced severe corporate burnout. While I was the Global Head of Communications for a large ad agency, I landed myself in the emergency room with a migraine where I lost all of my motor skills.
And I know we talked about that moment where we all have crises, and we all kind of hit our rock bottom. The thing that's fascinating about that is, everyone's rock bottom is different. For some it can be a moment where you land in the emergency room. For others, it can be an emotional moment. For others, it can be a spiritual moment. For others, it can be a mental moment. We all have to kind of take agency of what that moment means to us, and then what we choose to do with it next.
From there, I went on a very deep health and wellness journey, in addition to switching my job, which I thought would save everything and help everything. I was sure that I had a brain tumor, and I was dying and all of the things, and after months of testing and finally taking some time to really reflect, I realized that I had just burned out from corporate America. I went to another job and alas, the pandemic hit. So I actually quit that job on March of 2020, literally days before the world closed down, and ventured out on my own with a new company.
And from there I have kind of followed the path as it's led me, versus I think doing what most of us do as futurists, we forecast the future forecast, and we try to figure out where the path is leading us. So I've definitely had a lesson in the last few years of being present and kind of seeing what the world is offering me versus trying to make it happen. And from there, I've uncovered a new process that I've been working on that's been really exciting in terms of branding, and uncovering our purpose.
Andi Simon: It's so interesting. I have a good friend who was over for dinner, and she's a psychotherapist. And she said, "I've been reading Gouda again and I'm wondering about how we can get into the present." You just said that. And then the importance of being in the moment, and not moving. The past is past. The future is unknown. But what are we doing now to really gain perspective on both?
You gave us your history, we're not quite sure where you're going, but we do know that you're beginning to discover new value in what you know, and how you do it. And it's not just the PR and communication stuff, it's in how you're transforming people's lives. So talk about your new company, and the new process that you have, and what you're discovering both about yourself and about the people who that you're helping, because it's very powerful.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: Thank you. Through my own health and wellness journey, I really started to uncover different forms of healing. I did everything from Eastern medicine, to Western medicine, to spiritual medicine, New Age, everything in between. And through that, I really tapped into mindfulness and uncovered that I was quite intuitive. And through training, and again, listening with different ears, and really trying to remain present, and focused on the day to day, I uncovered that I'm a medium.
It took me about two years to feel comfortable enough to tell that story externally. I think my friends and my family knew I've always had this intuition. Every job I've ever been to, my boss has always said in my review, "Oh, you're so intuitive." So I think they probably knew something I didn't. And I really started to tap into that practice.
I think a lot of people think that meditating is the way to get there. For me, it was a lot of breath work. I did a past life regression. I have done Chinese medicine. I've done energy work. So I've really tried to look at all the modalities I could to get me to where I needed to go. And through this process, I really wanted to kind of tie in my side hustle, as you could say, or my hobby, with my job. And it just really naturally presented itself.
I was working with one client on her personal brand. Her guides came through in the middle. I was mortified, like, "Oh my god, what is happening and why? Why is this happening?" And then I realized the strength that it had in it. And if I could do an intuitive reading of which I tap into the Akashic records, and then really pair that with behavioral analytics about who you are and then the PR part of what I do, really uncovering that story within the story.
We all have impostor syndrome, and we all feel unworthy at times. And a lot of what I do is listening to what makes somebody amazing and what makes someone themselves and bring that to the forefront, tied in together with the data that I've gotten in the first few sessions. And from that, I uncovered this beautiful, authentic version of yourself. And then a lot of it is coaching to help you feel comfortable enough to put that person out in the world.
Andi Simon: Interesting. People have asked me about impostor syndrome. And, in fact, we did a panel on it with a bunch of women and they said, "Well, when did you discover the imposter syndrome?" I said, "I think when I grew up, I never was anywhere where I felt I was well-prepared for it. And I always just sort of rolled up my sleeves." My nature is to be an explorer. And I've been defined by the culture index as a philosopher, and I was always quite willing to be under-skilled, under-qualified and curious and it allowed me to improve myself in jobs.
I was SVP of one bank and EVP of another bank. Did I know banking? No, I was an anthropologist! and they imposed on me for their help and their expectations, what I could bring, but I had no idea what I was doing, and it was okay. But I look back on it and I'm sort of fascinated by this whole word "imposter" that makes it seem as if everybody should be knowing, when most of the time we're not quite sure what the environment is unless you take a job that's so well defined, and you know exactly how to do it.
Most of the time, you're a bit betwixt and between. And then when I got into healthcare, I had no idea what I was really doing. They had no idea what I was going to be doing. But they loved me. And I said, Okay, I'll take it. Let's try and figure out how to help. And when I launched my business, my PR guy said, "You're a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change." And I went bingo, even though I was an imposter.
Did I have a business? What was I doing, but I loved his brand. And his one sentence was enough to create mine. And so to your point, as you're talking, I'm saying, Yeah, that's me. That's me.
Well, we got to know some more about now that you've come to the aha moment where you know yourself better. You intuit, you can feel. My hunch is that there's a sixth sense that you pick up on and you're smiling at me. I want to get a little bit more of your wisdom for the listener or the viewer so that it is tangible for them, they can see how it might help them. If you could have helped me for years trying to figure out who I really was until John Rasika said, "That's who you are." I said, "Okay, you're right." Talk to us, Elizabeth, a little bit more.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: A little bit about the imposter syndrome. I learned a lot about it through a program called #IAmRemarkable, which was actually created through Google. And anybody, any of your listeners can take it, you just sign up. And it is a beautiful way for everyone to acknowledge their impostor syndrome and how to work through it. I do believe that your imposter syndrome, as exactly we're talking about, can actually be your strength.
There's something so beautiful about going into a job where you don't know everything. What a boring life that would be if you're in something where you're not learning something new every day. And also, I think we forget that we are bringing something new into a field, into an organization, into a team. If we don't know everything, there's always something that you were bringing in that's new.
It's fascinating because every executive I worked with has had impostor syndrome. Men, women, any ethnicity, it's just we all suffer from it. So I think if we can all kind of collectively decide that we are imposters and that might be our strength, there's something actually quite beautiful in it.
In terms of how I help my clients, I help them see what they can't themselves. Just like the coach that you worked with who gave you that line of who you are. But more importantly, I think it's very important that we, as a society, especially in corporate America, really start defining ourselves by who we are, not necessarily what we do. We all work. It's just that it is what we do. Whether you define yourself as a mother, or you define yourself as a stay-at-home parent or corporate executive. We all have that brand of what it is that we do for a living.
But the beauty is lost, and actually talking about what kind of people we are. When you die, your legacy is not going to be like, Well she did this, he did this. Do we want to be known for being kind? Are we thoughtful? Are we compassionate? Are we funny? Do we bring strength to others? Do we bring others joy? I just think that there's something so lost in that.
And that was also an A-ha pandemic moment for me. As people were dying, and obituaries were starting to read like resumes, I was like, Oh, God, if I die tomorrow, and my resume says that I work for this brand and I did this and I did this and nothing says anything about who I actually am as a person, what life am I living? How awful!
Andi Simon: As you work with your clients, because I can tell my audience is smiling, as you work with them, you're helping them identify not just are they in the right career or job, but also are they living the life that gives them the most purpose, that sense of meaning. We're meaning makers, as humans we have to have a context, we don't just exist. So in some ways, we're trying to find our meaning in the context of what we're doing. And what you're saying is that it shouldn't be just about what you did, but who you are, and how you brought meaning to others so they too could prosper. Am I right?
Elizabeth Rosenberg: Yes, that is exactly right. And attitude.
Andi Simon: How do you do this?
Elizabeth Rosenberg: I tap into the Akashic records, which for your audience, is an intuitive place to go, is the best way to describe it. That is, like your soul. As a library, it is a journey from the past to the present to the future. As I tap into that place, I can steer a conversation knowing that I'm talking to the universal light, whatever it is that you want to refer to it as, and I truly ask the client, what is your soul's purpose? And I believe that we have many, by the way, but what is your soul's purpose? And then what is your life's purpose? So how are you actualizing that purpose in this lifetime?
The funny thing is, we're already living our purposes. We just need to be reminded that we're doing it. In a way, I think that's quite beautiful. I also think in ways that are much more simple than we're thinking. But I don't just work with clients who are in a place of inflection in their lives or are struggling. I work with a lot of clients who are actually quite successful, who are just missing that purpose or missing that part of their life that's missing, and feeling like they just aren't living up to, I think, the greater good. They feel they are just stuck in a hamster wheel. And you're just doing your everyday life, whether it's your personal life, your professional life, and I believe that when you can tap into your purpose, how you life changes drastically.
Andi Simon: It's so interesting listening. I was at a conference last week, and I was talking to a woman who had during the conference the epiphany that what she was doing was more important than what she thought she was doing. And it was very interesting listening because all of a sudden, she realized that the role she did, the things she did, were very good. And her business was a very good business. But it wasn't the purpose, a sufficient amount of purpose for her to feel purposeful. You know, it was practical and tactical. And as she was going through this, it was an International Women's Day event in DC. As she was going through it, she had that epiphany where her brain took it to the next stage.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: How lovely to witness that.
Andi Simon: Well, it was interesting because she was talking about it, and me being who I am, said, "So you've just been elevated to the next level." And she looked at me. I said, "Think about what you just said. And they said that you have a good business and you do good work. It has a bigger meaning, more purpose and power for others than just what you're thinking."
Elizabeth Rosenberg: Lovely to facilitate that. I think that's so amazing.
Andi Simon: Well, my challenge in life is that that's what I do. I listen more, try to hear what people are saying instead in a context. Like you and me, I learned that when I discovered anthropology, it wasn't tactical and practical. It was who I was as a person, not a job I was going to do. And I listen, I'm trying to figure out stuff. It's a weird world. But as you're talking, I'm excited because it is hard to find others who can do really something. I've stopped bringing coaches onto the platform as much as I can. But, there are so many women coaches, even men, who are trying to do coaching in a way that isn't tapping into the inner soul. That's just sort of on the tactical, practical side. There's nothing wrong with it, but you are really transformational.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: Thank you. As you're talking, I'm like, "Oh, do I start calling myself a soul anthropologist?" I'm kind of liking that phrase, that thought. But on a coaching front, there's something very different that I do than coaching. I think there are people that need coaching at a certain time in their life. I think there are people who need personal development and therapy at a certain time in their lives. I think there are people who need what I offer at a certain time in their life.
We are all at different places in our own personal development journey. And you have to recognize where you are. There are so many clients that come to me that say, I got your name from someone and I can't wait to work with you. And you know, this is where I am and this is what I want to do. And I say to them, "I am not the right person for you. You need unique coaching right now. Here are three or four amazing coaches. Talk to them."
It's a lot like dating. You really have to, when you're looking for a therapist or looking for a coach or looking for somebody to guide you through different parts of your life, you really need to make sure that you are working with someone who is going to hold you accountable and also get you to that next place. Somebody that you can manipulate and somebody that you can be quite complacent with is not going to get you anywhere. You're just throwing money away. So know what you need when you need it.
Andi Simon: But that's very important for us to echo. Now, no one size fits everyone. You need to know who you are, which often requires a little bit of assessment before you start, and what it is you're trying to fix. Because often I find as I coach, I'm a John Mattoon-trained executive coach, and thank you, John Mattoon, but I often find that the issues that come with bringing out my consulting job more than my coaching job, they need ideas on how to fix a business or even on personal problems.
But if you go through the coaching methodology, and try to get them to elicit solutions, they don't know what to do that you've had in their toolkit. There's nothing there that comes through. So you have to be willing to provide that consultative idea that might generate some "Oh, that's what I should do." And off they go. But people are complicated and you found a way to help them in a particular fashion.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: Oh, it is, it is very specific. Because I also do tap into obviously the marketing and PR aspect. And I loved marketing and PR. It is still the thing that is just my adrenaline hit. And what I really want to do is help. Again, executives, leaders, business owners, and the media optimize their brands. The PR landscape has changed so drastically in the last few years. Everything's behind a paywall.
There's actual news that journalists need to be writing about being able to optimize your own brand, talk about thought leadership in a way that is interesting, that has a relatable story to tell, will not only, I believe, impact other people with your story, but it always grows your business. I mean, I've had clients who've had op-eds in Fast Company who've had six figure salary raises, just because they've changed their narrative as to, is this the impact that I want to make on the world. This is the purpose that I'm living. And this is the type of business that I want to be doing. So we only have, as you said, we only have one life to live. You might as well be happy when you're doing it.
Andi Simon: But you know, what you just said was very powerful. All of a sudden, the next stage in their journey opened up to them because they had time to sit with you and really dig into who they were and what was of great value. What's the brand anyhow? It answers the question Why you? and it does it in such a fashion so that when you begin to tell that, people learn something from it or gain something from it, or you give and share something with it. The only reason to have a brand is to do something with it. You know, what is the purpose? So it's very exciting. And as you do that, you get further affirmation that what you're doing has real value.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: Always, and you always make more money doing it too once you're actually doing something that you really love to do. I just believe it's like the power of the law of attraction. You're actually inviting a very different level of energy. You're inviting in different people as well. I think you're inviting in people who elevate you energetically, who are excited about what it is that you're building. And that also, I believe, brings you more abundance and more joy in your life every day.
Andi Simon: Sounds like you've found the joyful way not to burn out.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: You know, I have to be reminded sometimes to still not burn out. I genuinely believe that your body moves much faster than your mind, and your body burns out much faster than your mind. So listen to what it is that your body's saying to you and burnout is different for everyone. What might look like a series of migraines for one could be an eye twitching for another, could be lack of sleep for somebody else. Everyone has different ways of manifesting stress in their lives. So it really comes down to if you're listening to your body and not. But it's hard to do that, just like it's hard to be present. We move too quickly as a society and as a race, so we need to be more cognizant of the little messages and the little things that we're getting on a regular basis.
Andi Simon: I always tell my clients, you need an hour of self-love. You know, start your day with a workout, with a walk in the woods. You know, have a cup of coffee and sit quietly and meditate. If you want to listen to some mindfulness music, do something to quiet the body and get it going. Or end the day with some notes of gratitude and a little bit of kindness. It creates wonderful oxytocin in your brain. But if you don't do self-care, how can you care for anybody else.
Elizabeth Rosenberg: And I believe with a lot of my clients, finding that hour can be difficult. So even if you can't find that hour, find five minutes, a couple times a day. I always tell everybody, if you can't find that time, build in five minutes with breakfast, lunch and dinner of just sitting, breathing, being quiet, staying off of your phone. There's little things that you can do, and everyone's meditation, I do believe, looks different.
Even though I'm intuitive, and I can do 90-minute readings and sit there completely focused. I am a terrible meditator. Terrible. Your mind walking is my meditation. Your mind is mine too fast. But I can go on a five-mile walk, listening to music and just really connected to the world around me. And that is what brings me a lot, it grounds me and brings me a lot of just kind of like calmness in my day as well.
Andi Simon: You know, it's interesting, I live in a rural area north of Manhattan. We found an old farm here. And it's right next to a nature walk and so my puppy, who's no longer a puppy, and I go for two miles, three mile walks. And I talk to her and there's nobody else out there. And it's sort of like my park. And by the time I come back, I feel ready for the day. And exactly, it's just a little self-care is okay. You can enjoy that. It's okay. This is such fun. If the folks want to reach you, where should they reach you?
Elizabeth Rosenberg: The best place to reach me is thegoodadvicecompany.com. And I have a little toggle on there about personal branding. And then a lot of my own thought leadership and thoughts and hot takes on life can be found on LinkedIn as well.
Andi Simon: So it's Elizabeth Rosenberg, and for our listeners and our viewers, wasn't it fun today. You know, I have a hunch as you're sitting there, you're saying to yourself, "Let's just sit still, be mindful, quiet down, take a little time for me. It's okay, everything that has to get done will get done. It's okay." And besides, whoever cares for you, and about you, will be happy to do that with you. And so don't kill yourself. It's unnecessary.
Anyway, I'm happy to always share great people. Elizabeth, this has been wonderful. And I thank all of you who send me at info@Andisimon.com your ideas, people you want me to pick up and talk to today. I was in the UK and I had a great talk with someone in Kansas City. And now I have Elizabeth. I don't know where she is but she is such fun. And the world is flat. Maybe not.
But I am really watching our podcast. It's in the top 5% of global podcasts. I can't thank our listeners enough for coming and joining and sharing. It's great fun. And my books are available at Amazon: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business (Meet Elizabeth. She smashedit.) and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. And On the Brink is about how you can smash your company and turn it into something great using a little anthropology, take it in, think of it as a little bit of your personal branding at the same time. Step out, look out and see what's inside. And I'm always glad to share with you. Please stay well. Remember, turn your observations into innovations and enjoy safe travels. Thanks, Elizabeth. Bye now.
Hear how planning for the future means loving change
I worked with Jennifer Kluge several years ago on a Blue Ocean Strategy workshop. Her organization, the National Association for Business Resources, was focused wholly on businesses in Michigan, offering important services from insurance products to support with accounts receivables. As CEO, Jennifer has catapulted NABR into a national initiative that supports businesses with best practices, training and development, insights, leadership, and a range of programs reflecting the needs of industry today—such as rebuilding talent, focusing on wellness and burnout, and helping businesses rebuild their cultures in a new hybrid workplace, among other things. I love her message: Don't be afraid to fail. Something we all need to hear.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
What is the right strategy for an uncertain future?
This is what I worked on with Jennifer and her leadership teams. I remember at the time that my Michigan clients were struggling with talent flight. Students were leaving the state after graduation, and industries were trying to figure out their own futures. Fast forward to the pandemic and now the post-pandemic years, and Detroit, where Jennifer is located, is on the rebound, as is Michigan. Between the automotive industry, Rocket mortgages and loans, and IT incubators, lots of new businesses have successfully made it through the pandemic and are now rebuilding the economy of the state.
But Jennifer learned something very important during the pandemic, namely that the challenges of the past had changed, forcing companies to rethink how they were going to survive into the future. In this podcast, you will hear the journey that she has been on as she has built her association into a major resource for companies across the U.S.
You can connect with Jennifer on LinkedIn or her company's website, the National Association for Business Resources.
Is your business struggling with change? Give these blogs and podcasts a try:
- Blog: Okay, Okay, I'm Ready To Change. How Do I Do It?
- Blog: Hate Change? Anthropology Can Make You and Your People Love It!
- Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It's Necessary!
- Podcast: Rita McGrath—Don't Run From Change, Embrace It!
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide. And remember, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can change. That's not easy because your brain often hates me. I can't tell you how many clients who hire me immediately hate me, because I'm doing something that the brain says, Oh, please stop, stop trying to make me better. I know I need to be but it's hard to do.
So I go looking for people who are going to help you do the same thing: see things through a fresh lens. People ask me, What does an anthropologist know? I was asked the other day at a conference, What do you do? I said, I hang out. And they laughed. And I said, No, my job is to help you see things differently, not to necessarily build a new sandbox, but to at least see the edges of what you're doing so you can see what you might be missing.
And my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, was about all my clients who got stuck or stalled. So Jennifer Kluge is my guest today. And Jennifer is interesting to me to share her thoughts with you. I worked with Jennifer and her team a number of years ago. We did a Blue Ocean Strategy workshop. And they were quite stuck or stalled. But trying to figure out, Where are we going? What else could we do? Jennifer, thanks for coming today because I want to share what you did. It was great fun to see you then and to continue to see you now. Welcome.
Jennifer Kluge: Thank you so much indeed for having me. This is fun to talk about our journey and what's happened and what others can learn from. So thank you for having me.
Andi Simon: Help our video watchers and our listeners on our podcast know more about Jennifer. You've had a journey. And it's always important to sort of set the stage for why people should listen to you. Because it hasn't just happened, you didn't jump out there. It was in stages, you have seen it, you built it, you've carved it. It's a big piece of playdough that you've made into something big and special.
Just let me add one thing. Jennifer is the CEO of the National Association for Business Resources. Now she's going to tell you how that has pulled together a whole lot of stuff, Corp! Magazine, Best and Brightest. But Jennifer, a little bit more about who Jennifer is.
Jennifer Kluge: Oh, gosh, that's a loaded question. Let's start with a business perspective. You know, I started my career in human resources. And the whole goal was, I wanted to help people, but I wanted to use business, I wanted to be in business. But I wanted to help people within business. So I've landed in human resources.
I was one of the first graduating classes where it was actually called human resources. So I'm dating myself there. And then later on, I added strategic planning and marketing to my background. As far as my education goes, I was in the corporate world and it wasn't talking to me. I wanted to continue that mission of helping people.
So the opportunity came to work for NABR, and I jumped at it, and some 25 years later, here I am. And quite honestly, that whole theme of helping people has been throughout my business career, whether it's my teammates, mentoring them, whether it's our clients. During the pandemic, we sat down as a team. I had all my team leaders, and we said, I said, How are we going to navigate this? And we came out with, We're going to help as many people as possible. And that enlightened us to unglue some things. We were able to launch so many programs that helped thousands of people through the pandemic and I'm super proud of that.
Andi Simon: You know, your personal expression, your brand, your answer to the question, it's a very powerful one because there's purpose. There may be profit. And we do need profit so that we can pay our folks and they can all make living. But what mattered most to you is, How do I help people do what they have to do? Not what I have to do.
So talk a little bit about your evolution as a business because when we met, if I remember correctly, your organization was providing some insurance products, some support for accounts payable and receivables. They were also doing tactical and practical solutions that smaller midsize businesses could use. It was an association of businesses helping each other and it's come a long way and tell me the journey, a little bit about the business, because part of it reflects you, not just them.
Jennifer Kluge: Well, you know, we ignite greatness in companies in their people. And so we kind of pivoted from, Here's what we're doing, to Here's our mission, here's our purpose. And by shifting to that, we were able to think differently and offer different solutions to companies. So yeah, there's the pre-pandemic story and the post-pandemic story. You helped us pre-pandemic unglue the brain so to speak, as far as strategic planning.
Everybody on my team knew who André Rieu was. And we used it in every meeting, every board meeting. We built the André Rieu story, and this is what we want to do: we want to change who we are in a way that is tenacious and has ingenuity. So for those that are listening and don't know André very well, you used the story of André Rieu and how he changed the whole orchestral experience from kind of boring to exciting and fun and a value and got everyone involved in classical music.
So we used that example for years before the pandemic on how we wanted to change. And I think the secret there is that we know that success comes from a series of failures. And I think too, there's an element of, the more you fail, the more confidence you have. And having an important event, like the pandemic, and then you get through it, and you're crushing it through the pandemic, I think that builds confidence, not only in yourself, but in your team.
And so it's the combination of knowing that we have to fail in order to succeed, and releasing yourself from the fear. I think for every CEO, there's kind of a thing, Not while I'm at the helm, and, It's not going down with me at the helm. So I think there's this fear out there for CEOs, a subliminal fear, that you might fail. And once you release yourself from that and have confidence, hey, you're not going to fail. No matter what happens, you're going to get through it. I think that releases you to think more Blue Ocean Strategy.
So there's the philosophical, and then there is the actual doing the work. And doing the work is trial, we did a lot of pilots. So during the pandemic for the Best and Brightest companies we work for, we launched seven new cities. So we pivoted. I hate that word. Now, I hate the word pivot. Everyone hates it. We refocused. We shifted and we had a majority of the things that we did were in person. Across the country, we had conferences across the United States.
So when that element went away, it liberated us to launch more cities for regional competitions. So we had our biggest growth during the pandemic because we were released from fear, I guess you could say, and Blue Ocean does this. It says, Okay, this is something strategic here. But there's opportunity in it.
Andi Simon: What is the Best and Brightest? I've had some clients who are recognized as among the best and the brightest. So I'll put this in context for the listener or the viewer. Blue Ocean Strategy is not about competing in the market, it's about creating a new market, thinking about non-users and unmet needs, not simply more of the same cheaper, and then being free to do what Jennifer was talking about: to begin to experiment with new ways to do very important things. Because we don't know what we don't know.
And I always say never waste a crisis. I never want another pandemic, but don't waste a crisis because as you listen to her talk about the Best and Brightest, it went from nice to very nice, and from some people benefiting to lots of people benefiting, all because of a crisis. What is the Best and Brightest?
Jennifer Kluge: So the Best and Brightest is a series of programs that we score and rethink excellence. So there's the Best and Brightest of wellness and there's the Best and Brightest companies to work for. We put companies through the gauntlet. How do you treat your employees? We have 10 different scoring categories and we have an extensive survey to the employer. But we also validate that by surveying the employees at the end of going through these companies so they can see how they ranked. They see where their engagement levels are and they get a plethora of tools and services to help guide them with their talent.
Now, that was our core. Since then we've launched all kinds of tools and resources. We have thousands of best practices that we now share through the Best and Brightest programs. So thousands of best practices, and then we've opened it up to CEOs and thought leadership best practices, diversity and inclusion, team bonding and hybrid work, digital engagement. So we have this whole plethora of what I call deliverables but it would be of value to the business community that came from the pandemic, quite honestly. But, what I like about the pandemic, not that we all had to go through it, but what I liked about it is that it gave you the excuse to go bigger.
Andi Simon: And you didn't run the other way because I've heard of people who went smaller, and they shrunk. And they decided to reduce their staffing and they fled. Instead, you turned fear into an opportunity. And you parked it on the side and said, What do I have to be afraid of? What's the worst that could happen? You know, let's go help people because those deliverables are really a resource, as you call it. A business resource for people who need to know, How do I do this? Where are they going to turn? To a university when they're shut down too? And they're going to go to their association. Well, they weren't sure what they were doing.
But you filled an unmet need of a huge proportion across the country. And people came to say, I'm not sure who you are, but I really liked what you have to do. Am I right?
Jennifer Kluge: Correct. Correct. And we went, like I said, we got our team leaders together. And we said, What role do we want to play here? When times are tough, that's when people lean on their associations. And so we jumped in. We were answering legal questions. There were all these mandates and what have you. I mean, we were working around the clock. We felt we had to help as many people as possible...you know, people's jobs, livelihood, income, food on the table. So we felt a strong mission to help people and we still do. It's carried on to now. We've always felt that as a service organization that we have a significant job to play.
Andi Simon: What's interesting for our listeners to think about is, here we are, we're facing a battle. We're not quite sure if we're trained for it. But we know that people have unmet needs, and I have a hunch those calls came through. You are a day ahead of them. It wasn't as if there was a whole lot of time studying the legal ramifications of the mandates that had to be done.
Or what do I do to build a collaborative culture when people are in different places doing it in different ways? How do I keep them from getting phished, and having cybersecurity? And all of a sudden, the questions were beyond and all I bet you could do is say, Hang on, I'll be right back. Let me find out. Am I right? You were the go-to.
Jennifer Kluge: Right. And I gotta tell you, Andi, no past emergencies prepared you for this. And what I noticed is, more seasoned people that have been through the Great Recession, have been through other hard times within their own careers in their own companies. Those were the ones that were like, Oh, yeah, I know what this muscle is. Let's roll up our sleeves. I don't think people realized how long the run was gonna be. We definitely knew that we had to use those muscles.
Andi Simon: Real important point, because people who they didn't think were leaders rose to leadership, and people who they thought were their leaders didn't know what to do or how to perform. And so you know, don't waste them or waste a crisis, even for your own development. So that's really, really interesting. As you were going through it, was there a case or two that really stood out as something that was quite exemplary, either in a performance by a person or an area that you found was in tremendous demand, and people didn't know where to go and we rose to that. Something that you can illustrate?
Jennifer Kluge: Well, I think what's coming to my mind is the themes that are still going on there. There's a lot of themes around talent right now. Wellness and well-being in the workplace, mental health and workplace burnout, hybrid work. There is a lot that we continue to see in that space that has not gone down at all.
It's really interesting because some of these business trends are the inability to look to the future and predict things. That's a frustration at the C-suite level. So different themes are coming out. But they were the themes that were there three years ago; they're still here. What's the future look like? We have a lot of space and talent so we see a lot of the woes related to keeping and retaining talent. And there's been a lot of mergers and acquisition activity, a lot of culture merges and a lot of change. So, I mean, this is a great topic.
If somebody can manage change and thrive and change, they thrive in business. If you are going to excel in business, you have to love change, you have to drive change, and you have to bring others with you to drive change, and you have to make it fun and exciting for them as well. So you can't be in business and think that things are fine, status quo. Well, it's weird.
Andi Simon: Well, but just think about the things you just highlighted, because I think they are classic problems. How do you attract and retain people, but it's on steroids, or to use that expression: the Great Resignation. Your people may have resigned and have second thoughts, but it was a catalytic moment for employers to realize that they don't really own anybody. They're not really committed.
And then I have had endless conversations about why did they leave? I said, Why don't you ask them? And what you find is that what they needed wasn't what you were focused on. You were focused on what you needed. And we flipped it all. Stop thinking about what I need, think about what we need and what that person is looking for. Because if you don't understand that, it's no different than a customer.
You know, they aren't that different as people and they are looking for something to give them their own purpose and their own reason for staying with you. And they're willing to go jump off with everyone else and see what else is around. They may come back but the damage is done. They too can say it didn't work out. So what?
But what's interesting is that you made a big point: the times, they are changing, I think Bob Dylan sang that in the 60s. I love the lyrics to that song because they're today. And I think they are always. When you talk about this, though, the National Association for Business Resources is also migrating in some ways. You're taking your own business, and changing as it comes to respond.
And I love your pilots. I always love pilots because we don't really know, so let's try it and maybe we'll get part of it. Where do you see your own future? Because that's a big topic for your CEOs. Can you share with CEOs what you see, because you're a little bit ahead of them.
Jennifer Kluge: In what way Andi? As far as where the business world is going? Or where are organizations going?
Andi Simon: Well, you can do the first after the second. I want to know where the Association is going because you're responding to what people come to you with. You are anticipating, but you also are growing yourselves where many of you are in your future.
Jennifer Kluge: So we're going through that right now. We are now finally able to launch our own strategic plan versus what the market tells us we need to do. So it's refreshing to get back to strategic planning and say, Here's where we want to go, here's where we're willing to drive. So we want to expand some of our work on best practices. We have all these wonderful resource guides.
I do interviews like this with CEOs to find out what their secret sauce is, as it relates to talent. You're gonna see a lot more quick and dirty tools and resources. That's where we're going. We're gonna probably be launching some new programs. We have some wonderful endeavors that we do at our headquarters in Michigan that you'll probably see outside of Michigan within the next couple years. We don't let anything go too long without a big change or a big launch. And there's a lot of past launches that didn't work.
I remember around 15 years ago, we did this online digital education and training program. A leadership program for small businesses. And I thought it was gonna be so cool. And we launched it, did a lot of marketing, and it didn't take. But gosh, if we had launched that this year, you know...we do have some wonderful training programs. We have leadership development, training programs, and what have you. But it's so funny, if you live long enough, right? You're in this long enough. That old tie from the 70s becomes a hit.
Andi Simon: To your point, so I have three leadership academies operating, one for the fourth year, one for its fifth year. And when they went pandemic style, we went remote in our pack, and now we're sort of hybrid. But you know, only 18% of the companies in the US have training programs. And they expect their folks to be learning how to do things.
In healthcare, I was always appalled that we would move a nurse up from nurse to nurse manager and tell her to wing it. I mean, it was like, Oh, how do I matter? Well, that's different from being a nurse and that's not. And then the ward manager became the leader. And what's the difference between one and the other?
So there are some real profound transformations in organizations today, and how we get things done. And I also think, generational transitions. You know, Boomers are not Gen Xs, not Gen Ys. I've had folks where the Gen Xers are translating the Gen Ys to the Boomers so they could get along. And then you have the Zs and the As coming behind them. And the world is very complicated. And it's an interesting time. At one point, I had clients in Michigan and they all were struggling with the migration of people after college from Michigan. Has that changed, are people staying.
Jennifer Kluge: In fact, we're hosting our National Summit in Detroit so people can see how cool and hip Detroit is now. I think the phrase Comeback City is very accurate. In fact, we moved our offices to downtown Detroit to be a part of the change in the resurgence. There's so many wonderful things happening in Michigan now.
Again, talk about Blue Ocean, there's an opportunity right there. The cost of living is lower here. Land is cheaper here. A lot of people took advantage of the low interest rates, and they grew their businesses. So yeah, I would highly recommend that if you have not been to Michigan or Detroit or Grand Rapids in a while, you should come check it out. There's some pretty cool cities here. And we're doing some really incredible things.
But to answer that other question that you had about what are the trends we're seeing right now, it's very interesting to see this transition right here in this moment. There are some companies that are thriving and can't hire enough talent. There's other industries that they're letting people go. We're at the beginning of this change of economy, where you have this group thriving and this group not thriving.
So I think there's going to be another shift soon for employers to really focus on. The other interesting thing is hybrid work, and how that affects culture and creates subcultures. And we are seeing a lot of issues around, Do we have digital employees? Do we force them to come back to the office? Do we not force them to come back? Do we need them to come back because the economy is really hurting our operations and it's time? Those kinds of questions. I think that a lot of people are swimming in that right now.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, it's interesting, I had done a podcast with a gentleman who had a book about how to manage a totally remote workforce, Running Remote. There are others that are global, that have been for a long time completely remote. And then I've been called to come in and help with a culture of organizations who have a flywheel of hires and fires and hires, and they leave because they think it is a bad culture.
And being an anthropologist who studies culture and helps companies change their culture and knowing that people don't know what their culture is, they're not even quite sure what they want to create out of it, which makes it intentional. And that creates a whole new platform for thinking about what it is you're really trying to do. What is it you missed?
I have a wonderful client and they have a brand new office that was completed in March of the beginning of the pandemic, and nobody wants to come in. And their folks, they have 70 employees, they say to us, Why do I have to drive an hour in and an hour back to sit there to do the same work I can do here?
And the CEO wants to be with people. I mean, he's a social fellow, and really just wants the socializing part of it. It's interesting what the pressure is, and how efficient you can be or how social and effective you are. And it really reflects who you are as much as anything. And I don't want my listeners to underestimate the power of me and who I'm looking for, as opposed to we and what we need to be effective here.
I had a client ask, Why do you think people are leaving? Well, because it's not the culture that it was before. I mean, nobody left before. Well, they did too, but they seem to be moving faster now. And I said, So, let's take a look at what's going on. But these are interesting times, aren't they?
Jennifer Kluge: Very, very different. So I think we're at the beginning of a new era of how business is done and how talent works. It's going to be very, very interesting to see what best practices come out of this. And quite honestly, it is different. You know, there's truth to both sides, right?
To the companies that want to bring people back in person, it's much easier to communicate and engage in a group, in person. Training is a huge issue, bringing people in with the right skill sets is much harder now. Training people for their job is much harder. Imagine a supervisor that's digital and an employee that's in person. So there are a lot of issues now. And that's what we're hearing about.
So what we're doing as an organization is, we're saying, Okay, this is what this company is doing, here's the best practice on that side, here's the best practice on this side, but you have to fit it for your culture. You can't just take a best practice from another company and plop it in. It has to be shaped and molded for your company's personality.
Andi Simon: And it's important to figure out what your customer's personality is.
Jennifer Kluge: Well, I'm blessed because the Best and Brightest companies to work for and the companies that we work with, they're above average, they think differently. They're more elite thinkers. It's a community of really smart, cutting-edge companies. So I have the pleasure of seeing the best. But it's our job to share what they're doing with others, right? So that's an expensive expectation. Going through the programs, we're gonna share your secret sauce, but it's also a gift.
Andi Simon: And there's nothing better than the gift of kindness, of sharing, and then celebrating. And I do think that says getting exactly the gift you have. So I'm absolutely having a blast listening to you. I love Michigan, it's been a good world for me to have clients in and that's how we met. A couple of things you'd like our listeners not to forget? They always remember the ending even better than the beginning. One or two things that they should keep in mind that you've learned in building your business? Or as you work with your Best and Brightest who are building theirs.
Jennifer Kluge: A success comes from a series of failures. Don't be scared to fail. And it's about you. It has nothing to do with you. Take the emotion out of it, the emotion out of decision-making, the emotion out of your personal impact and the best road for decision-making.
Andi Simon: You know, years ago I taught. I was a visiting professor at Washington University teaching entrepreneurship, and some of the entrepreneurs I brought in to talk for their case studies said, "I opened three businesses. That one worked, that one didn't. I never failed"
And that's a little like what you're saying. Let's distance the business from ourselves and make sure that we understand that sometimes things happen for good or for not, that's part of it, but it isn't necessarily all of us that's doing it.
I had two things I didn't hear from you. I want you to be free from failure. The fear of failure is what impedes you from doing the best things, the right things, or knowing what you could do. And the other thing is that this is a time for rethinking talent. And I think all of the things you talked about, whether it's well-being, and that's a really big area, or it's burnout, or it's hybrid or it's culture, people are herd animals. We have survived because of our work together. We've evolved because we could really do things better together.
So a great book is called The Secret of our Success. And our success has been because we did it together, not alone. You let that happen. What a gift. Thank you, Jennifer, thank you for joining me today.
Jennifer Kluge: Thank you, Andi. So it's always a pleasure to chat with you and get your wisdom.
Andi Simon: Well, I'm glad it's been so impactful for you, but it's fun for me to share it as well, for my listeners, and my viewers. Thank you for coming. Remember my books, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights are both available. They've done extremely well. They won us awards, and they share the stories of people like Jennifer's customers, their clients. And they are like Jennifer who have smashed the myths tof what women can do.
My new book comes out in September. It's called Women Mean Business. It's the wisdom of 101 trailblazing women and it is truly an extraordinary experience to listen to 101 women tell you their experiences, a little like Jennifer has done today. What are the wisdoms that we want you to share so we can elevate you and inspire you and help you get to where you need to go. And I think that it is a time of transformation for business, but also for women in business. So for all of you who come, thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Stay safe, stay healthy. Jennifer, thank you again. It's been such fun. Goodbye now. Bye bye.
Learn how to really and truly end gender bias at work
Despite extensive and costly diversity initiatives, little progress has been made in recent years in ending workplace gender inequality. I reviewed Andie Kramer’s new book, Beyond Bias: The Path To End Gender Inequality At Work, and was so excited to read about a process for change that might actually work. Remember, we are corporate anthropologists specializing in helping organizations change. And we know how hard it is for people and groups of people to shift their ways of doing things to improve their workplaces. Beyond Bias, as Andie will tell you in our podcast, presents a compelling explanation of the reasons for the failure of change initiatives to bring a more diverse and equitable workplace into reality, and what we can do to change that.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Current diversity initiatives focus primarily on “teaching” people to be less biased and more inclusive, which doesn't work.
Teaching is fine. But, as Andie tells us, this is the wrong focus. As Beyond Bias makes clear, workplace gender inequality is a systemic problem caused largely by the (unintended) discriminatory operation of personnel systems, policies and practices. And these ingrained biases have been caused by all the structures that have evolved over many years as organizations have developed.
As a solution, Andie offers the four-prong PATH program for directly attacking this structural discrimination — and with it, individuals’ discriminatory conduct. In brief, PATH is designed to help you:
- Prioritize Elimination of Exclusionary Behavior
- Adopt Bias-free Methods of Decision-Making
- Treat Inequality in the Home as a Workplace Problem
- Halt Unequal Performance Evaluations and Leadership Development Opportunities
This progam is a comprehensive set of actions that organizations can take to ensure that women no longer encounter gendered obstacles to their career advancement and instead, find their workplaces to be engaging, supportive places where they — and everyone — can thrive. And wouldn't that be fantastic, finally.
You can read more about Andie Kramer, Founding Member of ASKramer Law, in my book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. You can also contact her on LinkedIn, Twitter and her two websites: ASKramer Law and Andie and Al: Breaking Through Bias.
Want more strategies for fighting bias at work? Start with these:
- Blog: Businesses Must Sustain Diversity And Inclusion For Women
- Podcast: Andrea Kramer and Alton Harris—Tackling Gender Bias In The Workplace
- Podcast: Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let’s Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen
- Podcast: Rohini Anand—Can Businesses Create Cultures Based On True Diversity, Equity and Inclusion?
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, I'm your guide and your host and my job is to get you off the brink. I want to help you see things through a fresh lens so you can change. And you know that your brain hates me. The minute I say we're going to change, you immediately shut down right away and say, Oh, no, you cannot change me. But I want you to begin to see things that you can do to begin to adapt your organization, yourself, and the folks around you so they can in fact live better lives.
And today, it's time for us to talk about this challenge. We are building diverse, equitable, inclusive organizations, where people with different backgrounds of any kind can feel like they belong. Now, for setup, my guest today is Andie Kramer. And she was kind enough to tell her story in my first book about women, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. I'll share with you that I have a new book coming out in September called Women Mean Business. But I'm not going to tell you much more about it.
Andie is a very talented lawyer and author who has a new book coming out this May 2023. And the book is called Beyond Bias: The Path To End Gender Inequality At Work. She's written several books about it. And let me give you a bit of her biography, then I'm gonna turn it over to her to tell you about her journey because it's a very interesting one, from being told not to be a lady lawyer to being a very successful one.
So who is Andie Kramer? She's regarded as one of the foremost authorities on the regulatory texts, commercial and governance matters that arise for individuals and businesses in trading environments. She's represented multinational corporations, financial services firms, exchanges, trading platforms, hedge funds, all kinds of companies that typically deal with securities, commodities, derivatives, all types of things, ESG matters and non-traditional assets, emerging asset classes of all types. Really, really smart, wonderful lady. She's respected for her multi-disciplinary knowledge concerning legal issues arising in markets, and all types of products at trade.
nd then we're going to skip around her bio a bit. She has spent 30 years at McDermott Will and Emery where she established and led the financial products trading and derivatives group. In my book, we talk more about how getting into McDermott Will and Emery was an interesting experience and what she's done there, since it's been an interesting one. One of my favorite stories is how the men all climbed the Empire State Building and saved the damsel in distress and the women all worked well together, and they kept their jobs. So she learned early about being a very successful, talented woman in a man's organization and industry.
She's been co-author of many books, and she was also named by The National Law Journal as one of the 50 Most Influential Women Lawyers in America, for a demonstrated power to change the legal landscape, shape public affairs, watch industries and do big things. I love that. The National Law Review recognized her as a go-to thought leader, and JD super readers voted for her as the top author in cryptocurrency and taxation, but we're not going to talk about cryptocurrency today. But that's an interesting topic by itself.
She's known for her long-standing work addressing and dismantling workplace gender discrimination. And she served as a member of the diversity and inclusion advisory board for the Illinois Supreme Court Commission on Professionalism and was co-author of What You Need to Know about Negotiating Compensation, a 2013 Guide, published by the American Bar Association with her lovely husband, Al Harris.
She's written two award winning books, Breaking Through Bias: Communication Techniques for Women to Succeed at Work, and the book that I have behind me, It's Not You, It's the Workplace, Women's Conflict at Work and the Bias That Built It. With that in mind, that is sort of the setup for today's conversation. And I will tell you, before the podcast begins, I just love Andie Kramer, and you will as well, in part because she's tackled the legal profession and our society with both hands up and ready to go. And now she keeps wanting to help it change.
So with that, Andie, before I talk about your new book, let's talk about your own journey. How did you get going in this? Why is bias and bias management such a critical part about who Andie Kramer is, and how are we helping women and organizations change, which is what I love. Andie?
Andie Kramer: Thanks. Okay. Well, well, thank you very much Andi. Yeah, if we get confused, all we have to do is say, Andi(ie) and we've got it covered. My journey started when I was 12 years old and I decided that I wanted to be a lawyer. And my parents only knew one man who was a lawyer and asked him if he would do some career advice for me. And when I met with him, he spent the entire lunchtime talking about why I did not want to be a lawyer, because no one liked lady lawyers, no one would ever love me, I would never have a family, I would always be alone, and life would be terrible. Obviously, I paid no attention to him.
And I went forward and became a lawyer and have been for many years. But he really touched on something that is important in the context of what we have to do about the workplace for women and what we can do to do better. And that is that he touched on what my husband and I refer to as the Goldilocks Dilemma, which is that women who are nice and kind and sweet are playing to stereotypes and are expected to be nice and kind and sweet. But if we're stronger, tougher, get this done, or I need this by this time period, we're too tough, and no one wants to work with us.
And so this man talking to a 12-year-old was actually touching on some of the issues that we still have today in today's workplace, which is that women are expected to be punished if we're not nice and kind and sweet. But if we're to get this done, and I need this, and I need it now, then not just the men, but the women, too, don't want to be working with us. And so that leads me to Andi's original question: why am I doing this? And how did I get in this space? And the answer to that was that once I knew I wanted to be a lawyer, I put my head down, and I was fortunate enough to be able to make that happen.
We could talk about how Title Nine actually is what probably allowed me to get into law school because before Title Nine, women were excluded from consideration. And so that's a topic for another day. But the reality is that when I joined this huge big law firm after having started my practice with a group of people that could not have cared if you were purple, polka dotted, if you did a good job, everybody wanted you on their projects, I'm now in an environment where the fact that I was a woman, what am I doing in a corner office, the fact that I have a two-year-old daughter at home, obviously, I don't care about my career. So the stereotypes are clashing.
And I started to see what stereotypes and biases do to women in the workplace, especially when the workplace is large and people don't know you. And so they rely on the stereotypes and the biases that they've grown up with and are comfortable with. And so I started. When I served on our management committee, and then on our compensation committee, this is what Andi was alluding to. The very first thing I learned was that the men will talk about how, in their self-evaluations, how they would have climbed to the top of the Empire State Building, circled around and rescued all the damsels in distress, and they're cool. And they all are owed all the money and all the promotions.
The woman who came up with the idea that saved the client, all the money, would write her self-evaluation talking about how she was on the ABC team. And she worked with so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. And so what I learned then was that there are special rules about how women and men are expected to communicate with each other, how we're punished if we don't, and what we need to do to actually move the needle for diversity, equity and inclusion, and that is to go after the stereotypes and the biases and basically root them out.
Andi Simon: Now, you and I have talked so much about these things. Your first book was about how women could communicate better using a good setup and segue from what you just said, because those women who were providing you with self-evaluations were providing you with a story. And the main story, the women's story, were very different stories about how they saw themselves, saw each other and performed. It's like a stage, they had different roles, and they played them differently. Now, if you want to leave it like that, you can. But I don't think that that's the most constructive way for us to build a better organization tapping into the talent that women bring. So now we're looking for a new model, a new way, a new story for us to develop. Your first book was about how to help women shift the way they saw themselves and communicate, am I correct?
Andie Kramer: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. If you're dealt a gender bias workplace, how can you play cards in that, with that deck? What we did is, we realized, what we did is, we found that before we could talk about what women need to do, and can do, when interacting with other people, we devoted the first part of the book to what women can have conversations that we can have with ourselves. And those conversations are about confidence and positive mindset and resilience and having what's referred to as a coping sense of humor, so that all of these things that we can marshal to have a conversation with ourselves about what we can do, as to how we're going to go out into the world and interact with other people. So that's sort of the first part of the book.
And then the second part of the book was, Okay, now we're interacting with other people, what do we do from the standpoint of verbal and nonverbal communications, because very often women will sit at a table, in the old days, when we used to have lots of meetings, sit at the table. And when people would be coming in late, the women would be squishing up ourselves and the guy who had two chairs, because he had put his suit coat on the second chair, he's not paying any attention to who's getting squished at the table. He's not offering to move his chair or his suit coat off of the second chair. And so what happens is, women-spaces-power, and women, we would give it up very easily.
Men tend to gesture away from themselves that makes them look bigger, more powerful. Women tend to gesture towards ourselves. And so all of these sorts of nonverbal signs that are saying who's powerful and who's not. And then in the communication itself, what happens is, because of the stereotypes and biases, because women don't want to be perceived as too hard, we don't want to be perceived as getting punished for being too in your face. Basically, we couch things to try to, Well, maybe this is a bad idea. But well, it's not a bad idea. She doesn't think it's a bad idea. But she doesn't want to say I have this great idea. So maybe it's a bad idea, or I'm sorry 9 million times.
And so what we'll do is, women will find ways to try to send a signal that we're not trying to be in your face. And what happens is, then the message that we're sending very often is, We're not as competent, we're not as confident, we're not as talented as somebody who's prepared to tell you to your face that they are competent, confident as hell.
Andi Simon: And part of the challenge for women is that as you have been as you grew up, you learned and you mimicked others who played roles. And I do use theater often as a metaphor. And so you look, whether it's on the screen, or it's on your TV, or it's at home, and those are the models that you are being mentored by, even if it's not understood or intentional. So your styles of behaving were set a long time before you knew that you were behaving that way. And an alternative style hasn't emerged for you because you're not going to minimally mimic the guys and be looked at as a bitch or as somebody who's very tough, you really want to find something in between that plays up on the intellectual and smart side while still having an intentional approach to it that others will hear you.
Part of it is how you present. The other part is how they hear you. And that becomes part of the challenge. Your second book, It's Not You, It's the Workplace was a really interesting setup for the new book. Quickly tell us a little bit about how we went from how you can change your conversation and style to the workplace understanding of it, so you can begin to think about it. And then we'll talk about your new book and the PATH program, which I think is just a brilliant way of applying it.
Andie Kramer: Well, what happened was when we were talking about and writing about the issues of what women can do to overcome gender bias workplaces, we were hit with a lot of resistance. One was, Why do women have to change? And the answer to that is: We're not saying women have to change, we're just telling you that you need to know what the cards are that you were dealt and figure out how to play them to your advantage.
But the other part of it was, women would say, Okay, I get it, I understand how to deal with guys. Now you're giving me some good points, I got it, but I really hate working with women. And that was a shock for me because I've never had any trouble working with women, and couldn't for the life of me figure this out. And we started to do some serious research into what's going on in the workplace that makes it that women are prepared to say, I get along fine with the guys, but I hate working with women.
And what we found was that most of it has nothing to do with the women other than the fact that in a gender biased workplace, what happens is, there's one spot at the top, so that if I'm nice to you, you might take that spot away from me. There might be expectations as to who's going to make it in a small group. We also come to the workplace with all sorts of misconceptions: who we are, and what are we coming to? What are we bringing to the table?
And so we come with all these suitcases filled with all these stereotypes and biases that we have about ourselves, and other people have about us, and so It's Not You, It's the Workplace starts with, Let's talk about a gender bias workplace, and how that holds women back and how it prevents women from having the opportunities to grow the way that men can comfortably in the workplace. And then what can we do better to understand each other? So It's Not You, It's the Workplace, what we did is, we started with, Okay, well, let's look at younger women and older women. Let's look at LGBTQ and other women, let's look at black women versus everybody else. Let's look at Asian women versus everybody else.
And so we worked our way through many of the biggest stereotypes and biases that are affecting women's interacting with each other. And that was really what It's Not You, It's the Workplace was about trying to say. The problem is not that women don't get along with women, the problem is that the workplace is making it difficult for women to interact with other women.
Andi Simon: It's a very interesting setup because you don't think of it that way; you think about women having trouble working in men's industries. But in fact, as you diversify and bring in people of different backgrounds, you begin to create a different dynamic that's going on here. When you started to write this book, the new one, I really want to talk a little bit about Beyond Bias because if the listener can hear where we're going, and the kind of problems I'm going to tell you about how you can probably address, maybe there's a bigger issue here in terms of the dynamics.
Okay, that's the workplace, now what do we do? The new book coming out is called Beyond Bias. And since you may watch this podcast, even afterwards, the new book is out. It's coming in May 2023. But it's a book that you should, if you hear this before then, preorder it. But what Andie and I are both fascinated by is that diversity, equity, inclusion, little progress, or that some people have good jobs, and they're always the diverse person who has that job mess if they have some magic to figure out a solution. And I know so many of them who are really VPs of HR with, you know, global diversity, and they are all a little bit frustrated. or maybe not ready to accept the fact that little progress has been made.
So Beyond Bias presents a compelling explanation of the reasons for this failure. And I think the most interesting part is that Andie and her husband have come up with a process for addressing it. Now, you have to remember, I'm an anthropologist, a corporate anthropologist, who helps organizations change. So when I was asked to review this, I went, Oh my gosh, this is right up the way in which we have to change a culture. It's going from hunting and gathering to a fishing village. And it doesn't know the first thing about how to fish.
So as Beyond Bias makes clear, workplace gender inequality is a systemic problem caused largely by discriminatory operation of personnel systems, policies and practices. It's a PATH program here. I'll read you what the half steps are, and then I'll have Andie tell you about them.
The PATH program attacks structural discrimination, and with it, the individual discriminatory code. The P is to prioritize the elimination of exclusionary behavior. The A is for adopt a bias-free method of decision-making. Now, that's important. Because unless you do that, then women still feel like they can't really talk about ideas or decide and feel comfortable that they aren't getting set up to fail.
T is for treat inequality in the home as a workplace problem. Now, that's a whole separate topic, we never quite get to but it's important because what happens outside of the office impacts the inside. And I actually had a CEO of a company say, I think I have to go to a black church to better understand the people I'm hiring, which wasn't a bad idea. And the last, the H is halt unequal performance evaluations and leadership development opportunities.
So in this wonderful book that's coming out, I can't wait to read it. I’d like Andie to talk about how they came up with this process because if it works as well as I think it will, you're changing mindset, attitudes and behaviors. And ideas are fine, but execution wins.
Andie Kramer: Well, what we found was that most of the bias, the anti-bias training of the DEI training, is: these are the stereotypes, these are the biases, they're unconscious, don't be biased. Well, if it's an unconscious reaction that we have, you could tell me all day long not to be biased, and it's not going to matter. And that's ultimately what we've seen, which is not that the money has been wasted, but that all of the focus has been on trying to fix the individual. And individuals are fairly hard to fix.
So what we need to do is we need to step back and say, What is it about the systems that we have in place that prevent women from succeeding? Prevent the free diversity, equity and inclusion that we're hoping and praying for and dreaming for? What can we do to change the system? So that behavior changes actually happen because the system is different. And that's what the PATH program does.
So we take for example, getting rid of exclusionary behavior. Well, it's wonderful that so many organizations now require certain things. They strive for diversity. They strive for people of different backgrounds, not because it's the morally right thing to do, which it is, but because the studies all show that companies make more money and are more profitable when they actually have diverse decisions being made. And so you bring in all these diverse people, but you don't welcome them in a way that allows them to succeed.
So what happens is, you bring on these people and you just throw them in the deep end and see whether they're going to swim or not. That's not an inclusive environment. So what we need to do is, we need to work towards making it so that inclusion is part of the DNA, the hardwired fabric of an organization. That's sort of the first step, but then what we did is, as we were digging deep and burning deeper into this and it was resonating more and more with us, primarily because of our decades of experience in management positions, it became clear that we can move the needle, we can do better with respect to diversity, inclusion and equity. We can do better if we change the systems, and I'll give you a simple example.
I was very involved in the diversity programs at my law firm, the huge law firm that I was at. I've now this year started my own law firm. So I'm now excited with those changes. But when I was at the mega, super large law firm, what happens? Well, the stereotypes and the biases of the people who are reviewing the lawyers would come out: he's a go-getter, she needs her hand held, he's so busy that he doesn't have time for it, she just doesn't get her work done. So that the exact same behavior would be characterized differently, depending on the lens of the reviewer.
And so what we did was, we got rid of all of those open-ended questions about, Is this person good for the job, and we instead put in core competencies which would require an evaluation of how to actually do the role that you're assigned. By getting rid of those open-ended questions that would allow the reviewers to say whatever they wanted, if they had to actually evaluate the people for something that was viewed as a competency, the world changed, the way that these evaluations were being done was changed. And so what we found is that even little tiny things can make dramatic differences in the way that we approach diversity, equity and inclusion.
Andi Simon: Now, as you were doing that, your PATH program has four steps to it. And we know that the behavior is the important part. But you also have to visualize somehow what that behavior is actually supposed to mean. I have a friend who has $150 million company, and she's tried to make it completely equitable, so that you have men and women, people of different backgrounds. But she had to teach them how to talk to each other, and actually had to show them how to have a meeting where the women and the men could each have enough time. They could also listen to each other's ideas without judging them. And until they could see what she was talking about, it was an anathema to them.
We're doing it when you're not taking a look at the video. Of course, when you see the video, I didn't really mean to do that until all of a sudden, you realize that I haven't changed anything. And that's what I need to begin to change and then reinforce because if I don't get a pat on the back for doing it, a hug, a smile, something that says well done, your brain isn't going to remember that's what you're supposed to do.
So we have to be humbled by our brains. But on the other hand, you have to see it in order to understand what it is I'm supposed to do. So the four steps were intentionally designed to help you through that process, I'm expecting.
Andie Kramer: Yes, exactly. And, interestingly, in the way that we've set these steps up is that you can succeed with small wins. So that it's not: that's your pat on the back, attagirl, attaboy, let's go for it kind of a thing, which is that we need to be reinforced. And so the world wasn't going to change overnight, but just taking away the ability for some senior guy to write about how he knows the young man is going to make something of his career and she's a loser. That's not going to change the world. But you got to start somewhere.
And one of the other ways about eliminating discriminatory kinds of evaluations is very interesting because if you just prevent people from having in their face: this is a diverse person, and this is a diverse person, miraculously they don't see that.
And so one of the examples is that in the US, many of the symphony orchestras in the 70s were almost all white men. And as soon as they started doing the auditions behind the curtain, miraculously, women and people of color were being added to the symphony. And what we can do is, in the context of just considering a resume, if we get rid of the names, the characteristics that are gender specific or ethnic, or flag racial, one thing or another, it turns out that the women get more chances to actually talk about what they would do if they have the position.
And so there's little tiny steps along the way. And each one, you could get a gold star if you wanted. You could view these as progressing and acknowledging that not everybody is going to dive in with both feet to do the full PATH program. We've set it up so that each one could be a module, some of them could be done, some pieces can be done quickly, other pieces can be done over time. But when you're encouraging people, and they're seeing some success, and feeling good about it, miraculously, they're eager, more eager to go to the next step.
Andi Simon: Now, I will say, this is not easy. We must be humbled about the fact that humans are cultural creatures and we give meaning to things. There's great research that I did a podcast about that came out of Stanford, where if you gave people designs or buildings or products and you said a woman built it, they didn't think much of it. But, if you said a man built it, they thought it was terrific.
There's so much that in our society has to be changed. But it's also a small one at a time, so that may be a battleship, and you're already on your way forward. But there's a destination and we can see that light out there because slowly it's happening. Remember, 40% of the attorneys today are women. And that means that you got almost half. Over half of the doctors are women. Over half the dentists are women. 65% of the accounts are women. And there's a sea surge coming. And there's more women who are getting onto boards and women who are in the C-suite slowly but surely. And when they do, others see that it's possible.
You know McKinsey's Women of the Workplace 2022 said, it's a great breakup. Women are leaving, and they're saying, Bye, don't need you. And they're coming and they're doing wonderful things a little like Andie did when she set up her own law firm this year. It was time to be on my own. But this is a time of change. And I think the most important thing is that you begin to keep moving forward, not go back, and not simply say, That's just the way it is, because it doesn't have to be.
And I do think that the guys who support us, both your husband and mine, have been great supporters, we've been supported. And I do think that begins to build a better alignment because I'm watching my daughters and their husbands have much better alignment. Are you seeing changes in the Gen Zs? I don't think the Gen As are moving up yet. Maybe the Gen Ys, are they? I know they're more intermarried? I know there's more acceptance of diversity. Are you seeing anything there that gives us hope?
Andie Kramer: What a good question. I'd like to believe so. The most recent studies, though, show that the young men are just as biased as their fathers. And so I don't think that age is going to solve the problem. I think we really have work to do, and I think you made that point at the beginning about how it's not easy but things need to be done. And I think that there may be less resistance to it by younger people because they're growing up in an environment where they're expected to be, assumed to be punished if they're not diverse and willing to be more open, but in the quiet of their own space. That's really where we have to see the changes in talking about business.
What we did in Beyond Bias is, we really looked at what we put together is, three sort of core stereotypes and the biases that grow from the stereotypes, and one is affinity bias. Andi, obviously you could teach a class on it, about how we believe that we're like people who are like us out of group bias, which is that we don't like people who are not like us. Gender bias, which we've been talking about, is obviously a key part of our books. But there's also other biases that we talk about in Beyond Bias.
One of them is called status quo bias. And we're prepared to defend environments, situations and workplaces that are not good just because they're there. And so the interesting studies will show that just proving to somebody that they could be better by making a change is not enough to overcome the status quo bias. You have to prove to them that it's two and a half times greater benefit to them. And so we have a resistance. We have people who are at the top saying, It's not broke, I don't need to fix it. We have people who are saying, Maybe it's broke, but I benefit from it so I'm going to be quiet. And then we have people who say, It hurts me, but change is scary.
Andi Simon: Yes. And there's also a lack of trust that the new is better than what is. We know what is. I know how to deal with it. My day is pretty well structured, I can get through it. If there are microaggressions, oh, I figured out how to deal with those little dudes.
I have a friend who's president of an insurance company. And she tells a story about being the coat girl. She said, It didn't matter what meeting, the guys gave me their coats to hang up. I went to Lloyds of London to bring them a client. And they gave me the coats to hang up until I went in front of them and said, Let me tell you about the client I brought. Then there's the stories that Sheryl Sandberg tells about women who sit on the sides and don't come up to the table. To your point about making space. I wonder whether the hybrid workplace has created opportunities for transformation in a different fashion because of the virtual meetings. The research says that women still can't say anything.
Andie Kramer: Okay, they still can't say anything. Well, I'm personally ambivalent, but I believe that the studies are going to show that women need to be where the action is. And in many workplaces, they can't just be at home or they will be left behind because of out of sight, out of mind. So we have to worry about that, even though it might be more comfortable, convenient or whatever, to be working at home. So we have to keep that in mind.
The other thing, though, is that her being a coat girl, well, you know, I can't tell you how many cups of coffee I've poured at meetings. How many times I've been asked to do one thing or another. But in our book, Beyond Bias, about breaking through bias, one of the things we recommend is, if you're the one who will always get told to go pick up the phone and call for this or call for that, don't sit by the phone. Don't be the one who makes it easy for them to just make that assumption about you.
Andi Simon: Well, and that comes from setting the stage early on, about what's acceptable or not. Those are important conversations and you have to do them in a way which doesn't build animosity, like collaboration. And those are important words, like I preach in my leadership academies. The words collaboration, coordination, creative problem solving, are all important. You know, Andie, we could talk a lot but I think it's time to wrap up. When does the book come out or they can buy it now. It's available as a preorder on Amazon?
Andie Kramer: Yeah, I think all the online bookstores have it.
Andi Simon: Good, we'll make sure it's on both the blog and the video. It's called Beyond Bias: The Path To End Gender Inequality At Work and it's going to be a fabulous book for us to read. You can read all three books and it won't hurt you at all. But now the thing is, once you've read the book, how do you do something, and we're both big fans of small wins. What I love is we can visualize where we want to go, a diverse workforce that feels like they're being treated equitably. And there's inclusion. So when we go out for beers at night, we ask the women to join us, even though sometimes it's hard to do. Or conversely, we figure out ways for them to do things that we join them there.
But it's interesting to be intentional about it, and to find small wins, and every time you do celebrate the win because your mind remembers what it celebrates. So if you really want to make the changes stick, you have to do both a vision of where you're going and visualization of action towards there and celebrate. Just take those things to Andie's PATH program and begin to watch the organization move because they can see where you want to go. And often I find that they don't know what words really mean. What does equitable mean? What does inclusion mean? What does belonging mean? We keep talking. Andie, thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure again.
Andie Kramer: No, thank you very much for having me. I've enjoyed the conversation and hope that we can make that path forward to eliminating gender inequality in the workplace.
Andi Simon: And I'm sure Beyond Bias will do just that. For all of our listeners and our viewers, thank you for coming. You keep sending me great people to interview. I happened to meet Andie through somebody who interviewed me and said, You got to talk to Andie Kramer. It's been great, a great colleague to have and a friend to know.
Info@Andisimon.com gets your inquiries right to us. We enjoy listening and reading them and finding new people to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And remember, my books are available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble and anywhere else, and they're really cool. People keep coming back and saying that's a really cool book. So I would like to share my coolness with you. Thanks so much. Bye now.
Hear an incredible story of courage, kindness and resistance
Mimica Tsezana-Hyman is our guest on this podcast today. It is difficult to tell you about all that we discussed in a short paragraph. I encourage you to read the transcript and listen to the entire podcast, or watch it, which is even better. Mimica has a great story to tell which will move you deeply. The question is, how does an entire Jewish community escape the atrocities of Hitler’s 1943 occupation of Zakynthos, a small island in Greece? Because of courage, and kindness, they all survived, which is why Mimica is alive today. She will tell you about her own personal discoveries and what she is doing to keep our understanding of that horrific period alive so we don't find ourselves doing that again. It's an amazing story. I urge you to listen and be changed.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Mimica is doing something quite remarkable
Mimica was introduced to me by a good friend of mine, ML Ball, who said, “You must talk to Mimica. She's Greek and has an amazing story to tell.”
I was absolutely intrigued because I did my Ph.D. research in Athens. I took my daughters with me to the Greek island of Antiparos when they were four and five to spend three months learning about Greek women. I really loved the Greek culture, and am so glad that I had a chance to live in it, learn about it, and share it with my family. But I had never heard about this story before, and I am so glad I know it now.
Mimica grew up in Athens, graduated high school, then studied linguistics at Tel Aviv University. She emigrated to the United States in 1987 and now lives in Newburgh, New York, with her husband, Barry Hyman. Her family is very engaged in her story and the tragedy that was avoided in Greece so many years ago. She discovered this story a little bit by chance, and it has taken her on a journey you'll enjoy listening to.
Sharing the past to educate and safeguard the future
For the past fifteen years, Mimica has been retelling the story of the Zakynthos Jewish community's miraculous survival through the presentation of the documentary “Song of Life” by Tony Lykouressis and the personal recollections of her father, uncle and grandparents. Her presentations summarize Jewish life on Zakynthos in the days before World War II, and describe how when Hitler's Nazis came to the island in 1943, the Jews were protected by the Metropolitan, the mayor, and the island’s residents. All 275 Jews, the entire Jewish population on Zakynthos, were saved. Their survival came through the courage of the non-Jews living in the villages and the powerful actions of Mayor Loukas Karrer and Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou.
I am not going to give away the rest of the story. Listen in, watch, and read the transcript. Just remember that courageous people can rise against tyranny and save the lives of others if they choose to. What would each of us have done? A big question to ask as we live in a very volatile and violent world today.
To contact Mimica, you can find her on LinkedIn or email her at mimicahyman@gmail.com. To see the list of all the places Mimica has given her presentation since 2000, click here.
More stories of courage and human kindness:
- Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times!
- Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You?
- Podcast: Patrik Birkhane—Helping Us Live Healthier, Happier And More Peaceful Lives
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. Remember, On the Brink is designed to help you get off the brink and help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can change. That may be something you want to do or don't want to do. But, I want to bring you people who are going to help you see the world through a very fresh perspective.
I'm thrilled today to bring you Mimica Tsezana-Hyman. Mimica has a great story to tell. I'm going to let her tell you about it. But the question is: How does an entire Jewish community escape the atrocities of Hitler's occupation in 1943 on a small island in Greece? That's sort of a setup for today, because she's going to tell you about her own personal discoveries, and what she is doing in order to keep our understanding of the atrocities of that period alive and aware so that we don't find ourselves doing them again, even in bullying somebody.
A little bit more about Mimica. She was introduced to me by a good friend of mine who said, "You must talk to Mimica. She's doing something quite remarkable," and that she is. She was born in Athens. Now I was absolutely wonderfully intrigued because I did my research in Athens. I took my daughters when they were four and five to spend three months learning about Greek women. I went to the Basilica. I really love Greek culture and I was interested in how it changes when it comes to the United States.
She grew up there in Athens and graduated from high school, and then studied linguistics at Tel Aviv University. She emigrated to the United States in 1987. She lives in Newburgh, New York with her husband, Barry Hyman. She has a daughter, Sabrina, and a son, Samuel. And they are all very engaged in her new discovery because what she discovered was a little bit by chance, but it has taken her on a journey that you're going to enjoy listening to. Mimica, thank you for joining me today.
Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: Thank you for having me, Andi.
Andi Simon: It's such a pleasure. Tell the listeners a good deal more about your own background, this discovery that happened by chance, and what happened as a result of it, because all of us go through life and then have an aha moment and epiphany. And some take us in new directions and others take us deeper into where we are. Who is Mimica, what is your journey?
Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: I was born in Athens, Greece. I grew up during the 60s. And towards the end of the 60s, the government changed and we had a dictatorship. During the dictatorship, I was a little girl, I had no idea. My parents never spoke of politics in the house. And a friend of mine told me one time we were out walking, he says, "You know, we cannot be speaking about politics because we're not allowed to. Things may happen." And then all of a sudden I said, "What things may happen?" But it stayed there.
At home as I was growing up, I had my grandmother, my aunt, my uncle, my father, my mother. Life was very simple, very beautiful. We never spoken about what this generation had gone through. Not a word about the Holocaust. I remember specifically, Mrs. Esther was my grandmother's friend and Mrs. Esther had the number on her arm. And I would ask my grandmother, "Why does Mrs. Esther have a number written on her arm?" And my grandmother would say, "Oh, you don't know what we went through. I can't tell you. Something happened. I can't tell you." And this is where it would end. My grandmother would never speak about it.
So I figured I wasn't supposed to ask anymore. My generation, it's not only me and my brothers, it was the entire generation, the second generation post-Holocaust. We grew up with an immense amount of love and immense amount of protection from the family. And we never knew why. We thought that every child in the world was being brought up like that. We didn't know why.
As we grew up, we realized that there was a stronger love towards us. We felt special. When I went to Tel Aviv University, I met other people my age. I realized that they grew up the same way. They felt special. My friend Kosovo from Spain, my friend Carla from Brazil, from Iran, I had friends from Turkey, from all over. Our generation had something in common. We were special, and we didn't know how it happened. Why?
My father was very traditional in his Judaism. So tradition carried on beyond holidays. We were not allowed to turn on and off the light. And this was very strange, because the other Jewish people, the other members of the Jewish community of Athens, they would allow their kids to turn on and off the lights. My father was very scarred by the Holocaust. He was very influenced. But he never told us why this is the way he was. And we had to obey, we had to listen because otherwise...
I was a little miserable at home. That said, we had Christian friends, and of course, I went to the Jewish Elementary School of the Jewish community of Athens. And then I went to the American High School. And there I met a lot of other Christian classmates. In the elementary school, everybody was Jewish, but in the high school, I was the minority. And actually, it was wonderful because during the lesson of religion, the Jewish kids and one Catholic, we were allowed to leave the classroom, go to the library and focus on our homework. So that was the bonus of being Jewish.
Having said that, my name Mimica is not my true name. This is my Hollywood name. This is the name that everybody knew me by. Everybody was calling me that. And it wasn't only me. It was all the Jewish kids of my generation. We had our Hebrew names on our documents, on our diplomas, on our IDs, on our bank accounts, on everything else. But for everyday life, we were called Mimica, Solomon was called Sony, David was called Vikos, etc. My father Menahem-Moses was called Armando. My uncle Elkana was called Noulis.
So we had the names that were the everyday names. But when I came to America, I said, "Oh well, you know, this is my Hollywood name" because everybody signs a check to me, Mimica Hyman. And the bank looks at my papers and says, "This is Simha Hyman" and I say, "Yes, Mimica is my Hollywood name." It does cause a little bit of a problem but what can I do. And then of course I tell them, "You know, I'm a Greek Jew and this is what we do because anti-Semitism in Greece is still quite high."
During the Holocaust, Greece lost 87% of the Jews. So the story that I am engaged with, which is the story of my father and the Jewish community of the island of Zakynthos, is a very unique story. It's a story of a mayor, a priest, and the people of the island of Zakynthos saving the entire Jewish community of the island, saving 275 people and breathing life to the generations that followed.
I am here with my kids, my brothers, my niece, my nephews. We are here because of that act. I didn't know about the story. Life continued. We kept our traditions, we had our seders and we went to the synagogue every high holiday and Passover. And then I decided to go and study in Tel Aviv. And my mother told me, "Every Wednesday you're going to find a public phone, and you're going to call me collect so that I know that you are well," because of course, there were no cell phones in those days. The dormitories of Tel Aviv University did not have phones in the rooms of the students.
And every Wednesday I was going to that phone calling my mother to tell her that I am alive and I am well. One Wednesday, my mother tells me, "Don't call me next week because we're not going to be here." It was winter time. So where are you going? My parents rarely left Athens. "Oh, we are going to Zakynthos." "Why are you going? It's winter time." Zakynthos was a summer destination, a beautiful island with the Caretta turtles that chose that island to give birth. You know, Greenpeace was protecting the beaches there. So we are not allowed to speak loudly. You're not allowed to speak at all, don't disturb the turtles.
But everything was happening in the summertime here because the planets are going into winter time. "Oh we're going to honor a priest and the mayor." I was brought up so Jewish that I wasn't even allowed to speak to a normal Christian. Here you are going to honor a priest? Something is not right. Something was very, very different. And I said, "Dad is going to honor a priest?" "Well, don't you know this story?" "What story?" and she told me the story. She told me the story that I had never heard before. I didn't know.
In 1941, the Italians had invaded the island of Zakynthos during the Italian occupation. The people of Zakynthos were living in fear as did everybody. But the Italians were not very aggressive. In 1943, The Germans came to the island; they sent the Italians away. And the next morning, Officer Berens calls Mayor Loukas and tells him, "I want the list with the Jews of the island. Be very careful because the next time it will be my gun that will speak instead of my mouth."
Mayor Loukas Karrer said, "Okay, tomorrow you will have the list." He goes away. He speaks to the Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou, they call the rabbi. And they decide overnight to tell the Jews of the island to leave their homes overnight and go hide in the mountains. They tell the locals, "Protect them and don't give them away."
My grandmother, she was the daughter of a merchant and her hobby was jewelry. I must say that in those days up until today, there was no stock market. So jewelry was not only given as a form of beauty and durability, but because of the gold or the silver metal that they were made of, it was also given as a form of investment because women were not allowed to work. So they went from the house of the father to the house of the future husband or the husband. So all they had were the jewelry. If they would find themselves in need, they would exchange jewelry towards whatever the need was.
She talked about how my grandmother put all her jewelry inside, tied it around her waist, threw a long skirt over it, and she went hiding in the mountains with the rest of the family for an entire year. They lived through selling the jewelry or exchanging the jewelry towards satisfying their daily needs. The locals that were hiding them were very good to them. They would bring them some bread or food or whatever they could because don't forget, there wasn't a lot of food in those days. But still they did what they could.
The next morning, they found themselves in front of the German officer with a list. On the list there were two names written in German and in Greek: Mayor Loukas Karrer. Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou. "Take us. The Jews are part of our followers. They have done no harm, they will never do any harm. This is our decision." Through further negotiations, they were able to save 275 Jews. My father, my grandmother and my uncle were part of that Jewish community. At this point, I must point out that the neighboring island of Corfu which also had a much more vibrant and more affluent Jewish community. lost 95% of the Jews. The locals handed the Jews to the Germans.
I remember when I was writing my speech...actually, I should tell you how I started doing speeches about this story in the year 2000. I was expecting my son. And all of a sudden my aunt and my mother called me. The reason? "A documentary is being done and your uncle is part of the documentary. And he's becoming a star." I said, "Send me a copy." "Yes, yes, we will send you a copy." I never saw a copy. The documentary is traveling around Europe, it went to Switzerland and it went to France, and it went here and it went there. "Send me a copy." "Yes, yes, we'll send you a copy." I never saw a copy.
Life continued in America. And one evening, I got a call from a friend across the river, George Petrakis. He lived in Poughkeepsie. And he tells me, "Mimica, turn on the satellite TV, there are some Jewish ladies that are speaking. You may know them." Now, of course, Greece having lost 87% of the Jews was left with 5000 Jews. When I left Greece, it was 4999, the Jews that were left there. "You may know those ladies."
So I turn on the TV and I see those ladies, and they did look very familiar to me, and all of a sudden here is my uncle sitting in his living room having all those photographs on the mantle of his fireplace. One of them actually was of my wedding. And I said, "Oh my God, this must be the documentary about the story of the Jewish community of Zakynthos during World War II." So I told Sabrina and Samuel, "Please take your negotiations to the other room because I really have to watch this."
And the more I'm watching, here are some cousins from Corfu, survivors, and here are other people that I knew from the Jewish community of Zakynthos. And all of a sudden tears come down my face. And my husband came with a box of tissues and he sat quietly next to me on the sofa. When the documentary ended, I had an outpour of expressions and feelings. I went in front of the computer, and I started writing an email to all my friends. That email traveled.
And all of a sudden, I'm getting responses from people I had never even met. And one of the responses was from a couple that were born and raised in the island of Zakynthos. They were diplomats and at the time they were serving as the Greek Consulate in Montreal. His name is Harry Manesis and his wife Efi Pylarinou.
During the Passover vacation, we took the kids and we went to Montreal. We met with them and I told both of them, "You know, I started doing these presentations and people are interested," and Harry turns to me and says, "Mimica, take a piece of paper and write down every presentation that you do, because the day will come that you will not remember how many presentations you have done." And thank God that I listened to him because I am at this point that I don't remember how many have done if I don't look at the paper.
That winter, when Greece commemorates the Holocaust of the Jewish community, the Greek Consulate of Manhattan was showing this film, “Song of Life” by Tony Lykouressis. And of course, I went because I always want to support anything that has to do with the Jewish community of Greece, and Athens especially, and they asked me to speak. And I spoke and my husband said, "People were crying." I said, "Was I that bad?" He says, "No, I think you touched them, you touched their feelings. It is very rare that adults will tear." I said, "Okay, that's nice."
And then I was invited to speak at the second annual Greek Film Festival in Manhattan. And I went to speak and of course, my son was six years old at the time, and he was very attached to me. And I remember at that event, they first showed the movie, which was an hour and 10 or 15 minutes long. That's how long the “Song of Life” is. And I was drawing all kinds of little animals for my son on the back of my speech. So when I got up to speak, and I had my speech, the audience could see all the little turtles and rabbits and elephants that I drew.
But it was very interesting. In every presentation that they have done, something happens that makes me remember the presentation. In this one, I remember the people were lining up around the block. It was at the Village Cinema down in the Village. And my husband says, "Mimica, you have to speak to this gentleman." And of course, I have to tell you, when I went to that first actual presentation, I brought with me Anna Yianakis who has a Greek restaurant in Newburgh, I brought with me the Foundas couple who had a beauty salon, I brought with me George Petrakis, my kids, my husband, so I had all my close friends that supported what I was about to do. They came with me down to Manhattan.
So my husband finds a man and says, "Mimica, you have to speak to this man." And I go, it was a gentleman with a long coat. And he opens his jacket, and he brings out a photograph and he says, "Mimica, look at this photograph. Is this your father?" I look at him and I said "No." He says, "This is my father and they were friends. Are you sure this is not your father?" I said "No but I know who you are. You are Jeff Mordos, our fathers were friends, you came to Zakynthos back in 1967, 1968, you were from America, you spoke English. I couldn't believe how well you spoke your Greek, then you had an accent." He just couldn't believe I knew who he was. And we've stayed friends ever since.
I remember my mother telling me, "Mimica you have a husband that works from five to nine, you have two small kids, what do you need this for?" I wasn't doing it for the money. And that was a little bit discouraging. And then I sat back and I said, The story must be told, because it's a story with a lot of messages.
First of all, it is the only story in the European Holocaust selection of stories that you have the state, the church and the people work together towards a successful result. The Jews were hidden by monasteries, by families, by individuals, by organizations, but here, having such a collaboration of the state, the church and the people to work together and have a successful result, it's unheard of. And that to me, it gave me a reason to get up and speak.
When I speak to high schools, and usually I speak to the 12th grade. I tell them, "Now that you're about to graduate and your life will change, make sure you pick your leaders well, because these people listen to their leaders. Keep your friendships because it's the friends and the neighbors that hid the Jews, protected them and saved them."
I tell them, "Listen to what goes on around you in a big university, because Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou had befriended Hitler at Munich University when he was a student. I will never forget that my uncle and my father told me that the people of Zakynthos knew of what was going on in other parts of the world. They knew how the Jews were being burned dead or alive, mass graves, executions, etc. I mean, not to forget all the experiments that were done and we have all these beautiful medicines today. They even told me that one day, there was a truck that came to the island of Zakynthos with soap, and they saw that the truck had come from Germany. And they took this soap and they buried it because they knew it was the body of a Jewish person.
A friend asked me, "Mimica, how did the people of Zakynthos know that the Germans were killing the Jews? Here we know that in other parts of Europe, the Jews like flocks they were going to the center square of their town. They went in the trains, they went in the trucks, they went in the boats. If they knew that they were walking towards their deaths, they would have reacted. How come the people of Zakynthos knew and they protected them?"
I said, "That's a good question." So I go back to my uncle and my father, and my uncle tells me the following story. And this is a story where I alert the students of high school. And I say, "This is where you come in. The family in downtown Zakynthos, they had the pharmacy, had the son. The son went to study medicine in Germany. During the summer vacation, the boy came home and told them what was going on. And of course, the parents spread the bad news to the rest of the island. So when you go to the universities, keep your eyes and ears open, see what's going on around. You are not invisible. You are very important and you matter."
These are the messages that I want to pass to the people that hear my speeches. Kindness, respect for human rights, are more contagious than hatred and destruction. And that's what we should aim for.
My father told me that one time the Germans had put him on the line to impose forced labor onto him and other people. The Christians were going in front of my father, directing him towards the end of the line, trying to avoid contact with the German officers that were in the front of the line and were dispersing people to work. This is an unbelievable act of kindness.
The sister of Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou, Mrs. Vasiliki Stravolemou, was the head of the Home Economics School in the island. I have to point out that this was the only university for women in those days. She had some Jewish students, and they got sick, and they needed medical attention, and she had to bring them to a doctor. Now the only facility for medical care was the German military hospital. What was she going to do? She takes the girls, she finds herself in front of the German doctor and says, "I bring to you these girls, as patients and not as Jews. I expect you to remember that you gave the oath of Hippocrates when you became a doctor and treat them." The German doctor treated them and on the way out he told her, "Medicine is a science and awaits patients." Which was wonderful. I mean, she did everything that she was supposed to do. She was gutsy and strong and she really helped.
My father tells me a story. He says, "When we were hiding in the village of Gaitani, at the Sarakini family, they had the little black dog." And one day my father was in one of those rooms of the house. And a soldier comes into the house looking for men to put them to forced labor. And the dog starts barking. I mean, as the soldier is looking in the rooms, he's quiet for the first, second, third room, and starts barking at the soldier when he was about to enter the room where my father was hiding. He made so much noise, that drove the soldier away. My father tells me, "You know, that dog that day saved my life." Even the pets were protecting the Jews in that island.
But I must tell you my father never allowed pets in the house. He was allergic or I don't know how to explain this, he was too clean. But every time that we had a meal, he would take the leftovers for the stray dogs and the stray cats. I think this was something that stayed with him all his life.
There were other stories but I think I've told you the most part, the biggest part of my journey. Is there anything that you can remember Andi that I should mention?
Andi Simon: No, I'm listening here as I'm sure our listeners and viewers are listening, because remember, when you tell a story, the story in somebody's mind begins to change. And last night before our podcast today, I watched “Song of Life” by Tony Lykouressis. It is available on YouTube. It's about an hour. It is transformative. The people in it are like Mimica’s uncle: anxious to tell you their story. You will never know the story. We're never going to go back to the past. But the past sets the stage for the future.
And what Mimica is communicating to us is this amazing place where people came together in a very unusual way to save others and to give them love. One of the scenes in there is, one of the gentlemen goes back to the village where he was being cared for. And the woman is crying and she is hugging him. And then at the end of the video it really brings tears to your eyes, because they're all together around the table. Nothing better than breaking bread together. And the music and they're singing. And the singing of the songs remind us that we are all one in a fashion that brings us back to love each other. Mimica, you're smiling at me.
Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: I have to tell you about that specific scene when Samuel would go to Mrs. Rapsomaniki. They used to, when they would hear the Germans were coming, they would leave the baby with her and go hiding somewhere else. And it was an unbelievable scene to see her alive and well, to come out of her house and hug each other. They were more than family, these people.
But what was interesting to me is, you know, when I was growing up, in my generation, we cared about what we looked like. We cared about what face cream to put on, to go to the gym, to look good. I mean, before we did anything in our daily lives, we always cared about what we looked like, and the hair, and the things, and the jewelry. And here is a giant of a hero coming out with just a plain dress. She was a little heavy. She didn't care about the gym. She didn't care about fashion, she didn't care about going to the hairdresser. She didn't care about her looks. Yet here is a hero, a true life hero.
So I remember specifically, I was at a school where all the girls looked alike. And they had the long hair and they had the similar outfits and so on. And it was clear to me that this was done with a lot of attention to the looks. And I said, "Now look at this woman. Do you see this woman? She saved an entire family. Do you think she goes to the gym? No. Do you think she goes to Bloomingdale's to buy clothes? No. Do you think she goes to the hairdresser to have beautiful hair? Do you think she does makeup? No. Yet she is the biggest hero, in her own right.
You know, it was very interesting that you were impressed by the same part of the movie that I was. Also, I have to say, this is very important, that when everything ended, my father and my uncle and all the other Jews of the island donated the windows and their personal labor for the St. Eunysis Cathedral.
I have to say that in Greece, the main religion is Greek Orthodox. And in Greek Orthodoxy, there are a lot of saints. So every island has this saint that is the protector of the island. Zakynthos has St. Eunysis and this was the cathedral that was being erected. And when it came to finding proposals about the windows, the Jews went and said, "This is our expense. We will do it as a give back because of our gratitude to our saviors."
Another thing that was very interesting to me is that, and this is a very touching moment, in 1953 there was a massive earthquake that leveled the island. And that's when the Jewish community left the island. Part of the Jewish community went to Israel and part of it went to Athens. My family decided to go to Athens. The first boats that arrived in the island with humanitarian and medical help were the ones of the Israeli Navy. And it's very interesting because now we could give back. Up until then, we were just guests, and nobody wants guests to stay on their premises forever. It's very touching for me.
Um, but you know, looking back at the summers that I spent in the island, the people that I met didn't know about this story. And I usually finish my speech by saying that I didn't know then, while I was enjoying everything that the island had to offer: the beautiful beaches, the beautiful weather, the beautiful restaurants where the waiters throw away the apron and get their guitars and they start singing to you the very traditional Zakythenian songs, the cantadas. I didn't know that I was brought to the safest place on earth that a Jew could have been brought. Life continues. And the people of Zakynthos, some of them still don't know the story but slowly, slowly, they will learn it.
Andi Simon: Here's what I'd like to do. Because part of the joy that you're bringing, in sharing this, is inspiring young people and people like ourselves, to not simply accept what is but to understand the role we can play through kindness, through courage, through boldness, to change. And I must tell you that the world isn't easy right now. And giving back is very important and kindness. You have to remember that acts of kindness improve your own sense of well-being in ways that are difficult to truly understand. You too can do things that are going to make someone else's life really beautiful.
And what Mimica is doing is taking this story, part her story and part the larger story and making it come alive so others can in fact, both understand it, learn from it, and then look at their own lives and make sure that they too can do something meaningful, moral, ethical, and kind. Mimica, last thoughts as we wrap up, because I think this has been a beautiful opportunity. You did not read your speech but you told it from your heart, and I just loved it. Any last thoughts for the listener?
Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: Yes. I think that this story should be told everywhere, especially in Holocaust classes and young adults. We teach Holocaust to our schools. And they have to learn about the atrocities that happened and more or less genocide that the Jewish people underwent. But also they have to learn about the happy stories, and this is a happy story. To me, it's very important to direct the young people towards doing good, not only showing them how horrible other people behave, but how beautiful life can be by doing good.
Andi Simon: Loving, caring for each other. This is truly a beautiful story. I will tell the listeners that in the blog post and on the video, I'll have the link to “Song of Life" and I urge you to watch it. It captivates you and you cannot leave it until it's over. And then you want to know, what has happened next, and so Mimica will bring you back at another time to talk about the impact you're having on those students, the stories they're bringing you, and I urge our listeners to send us your stories.
I'm going to wrap up now because I think it's time for us to let our listeners move on. Here's what I'd like you to do: info@Andisimon.com is where you can get information about both Mimica and about our work. And I'd like to help you see, feel and think in new ways. This certainly has been a transformative interview. Our podcast is just beautiful. And when you watch it, you're going to be engaged with Mimica as if she's standing in front of you. Invite her, invite her to come. I promise we will have all her information there so that you can find her as well. And take a look at her website. She'll tell you about the Jewish Museum she set up at the temple, all kinds of things that she's doing to make this world come alive for people who are Jewish and not Jewish together, because it isn't just one or the other, it's together we can do better. I want to say goodbye, and thank you all for coming. Bye bye now.
Hear how to rethink your life to find what really makes you happy
Today's guest is Julia Wolfendale, executive coach and director at On The Up Consulting. Julia is from the UK and has developed an exciting and valuable approach to helping people find happiness, success and fulfillment. Her book is entitled Five Ways to Focus and we discuss it as a starting point to help people better understand themselves. Julia has a master's in leadership and has trained and coached hundreds of leaders on understanding themselves and improving their daily lives. You are going to find our discussion itself very interesting. Do please tune in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
The five ways to focus
These are significant to understand, and they follow other research which we use at SAMC to help our clients understand why focus is essential to their success. The five forces are freedom, money, recognition, fellowship and fulfillment. As you listen to Julia, you're going to ask yourself, Am I the person I would like to be? Or do I need to take stock of where I am and consider where I'm going?
At Simon Associates, we have developed a program that's entirely complementary to Julia's approach. Take a look at it at www.rethinkwithandisimon.com. It's all about trying to discover how can we change our story to find the kind of person that we want to be? And so much of this has to do with how the mind works to keep you comfortable and confident that where you are now is the best place for you.
To connect with Julia, you'll find her on LinkedIn, Twitter and her website On The Up Consulting, or email her: julia@ontheupconsulting.com.
Ready to examine what really motivates you and makes you happy? Start here:
- Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times!
- Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?
- Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. My job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. And I'm always delighted to find people who are going to help you do just that. You know, I'm a corporate anthropologist. I'm a business owner and entrepreneur. I coach lots of folks. But I've learned over the years that new ideas come to you from different places in different ways. And somehow you'll hear something, and you'll go, oh, that's what Andi's been saying. But here's somebody else who said it and all of a sudden it clicked, and it helps me do something I've been trying to do.
So I have with me today a wonderful woman from England. And if you've been listening, we've had somebody from Paris, and somebody from South Africa. The world is coming to us and we're sharing great ideas. Julia Wolfendale is a terrific individual for you to listen to. Let me tell you about her and then she'll tell you about her own journey.
She's an executive coach and director at On The Up Consulting. What a great name! She's the author of a new book called Five Ways to Focus. And she's qualified to the master's level in leadership. She has trained and coached hundreds of leaders on how to have the best sales and get things on the up. She had previous roles as a marketing director for a large global company and also worked in large public sector companies.
She's developed an innovative set of tools, training courses and programs to transform, and I say this is a very important thing, to transform conversations at work. We've had other podcast guests who talked about conversations, and Judith Glaser has that wonderful book called Conversational Intelligence that I use in all my leadership academies. But we live conversations. And those are the crux of who we are and how we interact.
She now specializes in strength-based coaching and writing, helping organizations get the best out of their people with coaching conversations. So this is going to be such fun. And she also wrote another book called The Trouble with Elephants that she started when she was 12. And so there's a story behind that story I'm sure. Julia, thank you for joining me today.
Julia Wolfendale: Hi, it's great to see you, Andrea, thank you for having me.
Andi Simon: Julia, I gave them the overview of your bio, but I know your story is a rich and very important one for them to understand why as an executive coach and a trainer, you've moved into this whole area of improving conversations, but building better places to be and also to find them fulfillment and happiness. Who is Julia? Let's understand who you are so they can understand why this matters so much, please.
Julia Wolfendale: Oh, thank you, Andrea. So I guess my work career really started out when I got a Business Studies degree and went to work for Adidas, the sports clothing brand, and really being part of a big corporate setup really interested me. And then I was fortunate enough to move on and become a marketing director at Helly Hansen, again, a global sports brand. And having that opportunity to see different cultures, different people in different cultures of the organization, and in different countries in the organization sort of coming together and sharing ideas, that was always something that really interested me.
But particularly, I guess I've always been interested in what motivates people, what gets them to do the amazing things, and working with sports brands was really interesting because being able to see people perform at their best, use their body in the most incredible ways to compete and to perform and to really challenge themselves. But from a marketing point of view, I was interested in how do you get people to think differently about what they're capable of. So I suppose there was always something in me that led me to now, which is this coaching. So really recognizing that we are capable of so much more. And sometimes we have to challenge our situations, our environments, and ourselves, to make some changes to think differently and to find ways that we can be at our best.
So that's taken me many years to kind of come to this point now where I can say I have a successful coaching consultancy. I'm coaching leaders. Throughout the week, people have really important jobs and CEOs of hospitals and working with public sector organizations where people have really tough jobs and helping them in their professional lives, and thinking about how they can be at their best, but I also train in organizations and help them develop their leaders by having chats that matter. And that's our signature program, which is about changing the way they have conversations with their people using a coaching style of recognizing people's strengths, really unlocking that potential, and tapping into people's passions and what they care about so that they can be motivated and successful, happy and fulfilled at work.
And I guess that's what so many of us care about. But perhaps we don't always have the ways to do that. And I suppose that's why I wrote the book, because sometimes having the chance to focus on the stuff that matters to us and recognize what we're capable of is kind of the first step towards that. So the book, Five Ways to Focus, is around dealing with all the other stuff we could be doing. We end up getting involved in all the other things that we're thinking about, and actually just getting it down to really what matters to you. What changes are you ready and able to make? And what difference will that make for you, if you did?
Andi Simon: You know, it's interesting, because I have several leadership academies for corporations. And we're actually at a point where we're talking about understanding that leaders must focus on themselves on one hand, and on empathy on the other, and then the third on the environment around which they are operating. And I often worry that there are too many things to focus on. And we're preaching a methodology of getting to understand what matters at the moment. I am so interested in what you have learned. Talk to us more about when you say the word focus in on conversations, intelligent conversations, give us a little bit more flesh to this so that I think our listeners and viewers can all sort of grab what is it you've discovered.
Julia Wolfendale: Well, I think it's around cutting through the noise and the distraction. So sometimes the little distractions get in the way of us getting on with the work that needs to be done, or the plans that we need to make. But I think there's also the kind of the internal noise as well. There's the self-limiting beliefs that show up the things that we give too much attention to really, and believing when actually we perhaps could look at them, listen to them differently, challenge them, question ourselves. I think being able to focus on some of the things that are physically and literally in our way, but also what are the things that we've kind of manifested in our own minds that we believe to be our obstacles, but we've had them for so long that they've become things that we don't even imagine not having that or don't even imagine overcoming.
So the book really helps break down and is focused around what matters much. So really getting someone to understand, what are they really looking for? And if they are thinking about a career change, really helping them understand and assess their life right now. What's working well, in all aspects of their lives. And what do they want to have more of? What do they need less of? You know, why they value the things that they give so much time and attention to? Or do they value the time? And do they value those things or if they just took over?
And so helping people sort of reassess their lives and their work included in that. And help them think about what do they want to learn? What do they want to be able to be or be able to do? And then also helping them think about the things that are really driving them. So what are they looking for, by way of a change, and if it is a career change, there might be things that matter to them that they have lost sight of? So I do find that when I'm coaching with people, when I ask them questions around some of the one of the five ways to focus is, what are you really looking for, and it's based around freedom, fellowship, fulfillment, kudasai, and money and getting people to rank those in order.
So if freedom is a big one, it might be because it might be their first thing, and they realize they don't have enough of that now. And that's what they really do want to focus on. So I'll ask them about, what does freedom mean to you? And it might mean they've got more freedom to make decisions, so more autonomy. It might mean freedom in the sense of being able to have a better flexible working schedule and then they will come to fellowship and it might mean that fellowship is something that is important to them, and having a sense of belonging.
Great connections with people at work really matters. And, they may not have that now and people are suffering from that, aren't they, because of the hybrid working environment and so long remote working, that sense of fellowship might really matter to somebody, but they kind of lost it or forgotten about that. So help them understand what does fellowship mean to them? And if they're looking for it, what would it be? How could it be represented at work, so that it might be about moving into a new team, or joining a new organization where they really share the same values and they feel really connected. And so they belong and that's a strong driver for people's sense of belonging. Or it might be fulfilling.
And I think too often we forget to think about what makes us feel good about work. Work can take up a lot of our lives, but it can be so much more enjoyable when there's a sense of purpose and a sense of personal reward, as well as you might be serving others and that might be enough. So where does that fulfillment come from? And what does that look like, and really getting people to recognize that. I'm feeling unfulfilled at work and that's the thing that I want to prioritize. That's something I want to focus on.
And that's such a lightbulb moment when people realize that something is missing. But that's not the thing that's ever in a job description, or ever advertised. You don't apply for a job because that gives me fulfillment? No, you just hope that might come along. Or you might forget that that was ever important at all. And then curious, what do you want to be known for? What is it that you might stand out? And there might be that you have some great contribution to make, but it's just not being seen or heard in your organization? Or in your role? Have you been known for that thing that you do or the thing that you want that you want to have that kind of recognition for?
And you might be the go-to person in your organization for that. But is there another place where that could be valued as well? And you take that to a sort of a biggest regret or grander scale? Or do you want to start a blog around the thing that you know really well that other people struggle to express or struggle to understand? And then, you know, money. What will it take? Do you have enough already in use, this is just okay. Just finding something that will equally help you pay the bills? Or is this a financial move for you? I want to make the move that will really give me the money that I feel is important to me in my life. So yes, just shifting the focus on to the things that really matter. That's what I'm talking about in the book, when you want examples.
Andi Simon: When you work with people, have you had your own epiphany about how important this is, I won't ask you which of the five matters to you most. But, I have a hunch that when somebody does have that epiphany, do they then begin to act on it, or help them actually change so that if in fact they're looking for kudos or recognition. They can find ways to do that or if they're looking for fulfillment and purpose, they can redefine what the world is, and actually act on it. How do you actually take them from discovery to implementation or something?
Julia Wolfendale: Yeah, that's a bit that really excites me as well. So I love that whole exploration with clients to help them think about things they've never thought about before. I'll bring to the fore the things that they are clear that matter to them now. But yeah, I don't like to leave people hanging. So I always kind of frame my sessions around how do we make that happen now, so very practical steps.
So another part of the book is, can you do that? What's possible? So, I'll be asking them, so what can you do in the next two hours about that? What could you do in the next week, the next month, the next three months, the next six months? People need to feel that they can make those incremental steps towards the goals, whether it's a short term, or longer term, we think about changing the timescale as appropriate. So just breaking things down. That's another part of the five ways: the focus approach makes it small and achievable, but still aspirational enough that someone feels this is stretching them and challenging them and changing them but with the courage and the confidence to do that.
Andi Simon: You know, I think you get so excited about what you're doing. It's really quite remarkable because people are in need of a pause and a rethink of where they're going, and to create a new story about what they are becoming because they live already what's in their minds today. Once you got that story, there you think that's reality, but it may not be right. So true.
Julia Wolfendale: Yeah, so true. And for me, particularly, I can remember sitting in my business studies degree and I can remember being asked in my university class to sit and write down what I wanted to be and do. So I wrote down that I wanted to be a marketing director by 25. And I was, and then it's like, oh, now what? And then I had my first child, and I had a fantastic, fantastic job, as marketing director, and had my first child, and then everything sort of changed my priorities pane.
And I can remember being stranded at Schiphol Airport in Holland, after having this problem with the plane, and we couldn't fly home after having traveled over to a sales conference with the company, and really just weeping that I was already going to have to leave my six month old daughter for even longer.
And at that moment, I thought, something's really changed for me that if I'm going to do the work, if I'm going to try, if I'm going to have to be away from my child, I really want the work to be fulfilling. And it changed. So what excited me when I was 25 and 30 was the marketing, the campaigns, the brand building, all of that was fantastic. And then suddenly, my social conscience just really kicked in. I worked for 13 years in the public sector as a manager in a local authority, managing and organizing Children's Services, really deeply fulfilling as well.
I think, to be able to ask these questions of yourself at different times in your career and different times in your life, because you'll want different things. And it's okay. And I think people think that you get one shot at choosing your career, whereas there are very many paths to get to feeling fulfilled and satisfied at work.
Andi Simon: You know, so it's interesting, Julia, after my second book came out, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, I took the "how do you do that" at the end, and I turned it into an online do it yourself video program where you can rethink your story, not just for your career, but for your life. And I love when people take it because sometimes you need a guide, or you or me, but more often, you just need the discipline to try and pause and know what to do to rethink your story.
And as you start to walk me through your own story, you had to have an epiphany, something went off in your mind and it was a catalyst. I always say, people, if you want to change, have a crisis or create one because the habits take over. It's so much easier not to change. Even if you're not happy at the end of the day, and you're not happy in the morning, when I coach people, I say, well, if you're not happy in the morning, we have to change the story. Let's go to bed with a happy story that you're going to wake up with so your mind is working on the happy not on the you are, just what you believe. And it is so true. It isn't somebody's doing it to you, you're doing it to yourself.
Julia Wolfendale: Yeah. And I think the thing to notice is that we all experience our jobs differently. We all experience our own situations differently. So just because other people in your team might think this is the best job ever for them, but if it's not working for you, it's really okay to just check in with yourself. And if it's not fitting in with your family or your other priorities in your life, it is totally okay to ask yourself, what am I really looking for.
In the book we're talking about change points and boiling points. And the difference between those is the change points is when changes are coming about. So the organization is restructuring, to mean that change is kind of naturally occurring. Or it might be a change in yourself like you're approaching 40. We see a lot of people who are kind of reaching milestone birthdays and have a rethink, like you say, pause, restart, reevaluate. Or it might be that a pandemic has caused a lot of people to reevaluate their lives.
So there's change points that occur anyway. And they either come about unexpectedly because of external circumstances, or because of the natural process of aging or life change. And then there's boiling points. And it's important to pay attention to both because the boiling points are kind of less easy to spot. But if we tune ourselves into them, we know we're approaching them. So it's when those work stresses are just compounding and then it might just take something happened at home as well, which is the trigger but actually work wasn't great anyway.
But, then suddenly, work just fell short of being sustainable or too difficult to face every day because there's now other stuff that's not going well in another part of life. And so many people have additional caring responsibilities now that haven't been, with our aging population, etc. So, I just think, noticing what those boiling points are as well and having that courage to kind of check in and ask for help. You know to reach out and ask for a coach or read the book.
So you know, the help is available, but to notice that you might be at a boiling point, and people might be thinking, I need to change things for me. It's about taking charge, it takes a lot of courage.
Andi Simon: It does. And you know, as you think of your own story, I love the story, because you had a plan at the beginning. And you actually fulfilled it, you didn't have to stay in it. And your life took a turn because you had this wonderful child, and you realize there was more to what you were all about than just what you were doing at the time. That's okay.
Now, you've taken another turn past that and I do think that the most interesting time is a startup time, because that's when you're in the explore stage. You're really not quite sure what this is. But I know what I'm doing isn't whatever that means, and life is a short journey. And when one of the biggest challenges, and I have a hunch, you're going to begin to see it as people are reaching that age of retirement, and they have no plan for the next phase. So the next phase in their journey, and it doesn't take them long to have an aha moment, which says, this is not what I expected. There's only so much golf I can play. And it's not the financial money that's motivating me, it's fulfillment, it's purpose, it's recognition, it's fellowship, it's belonging. It's all the other things.
Now you have to remember, we're humans, and humans need all those other things. You know, Daniel Pink has a wonderful book called Drive. He talks about autonomy, mastery and purpose. And I do think that humans are herd animals. The secret to our success is our collective minds, sharing ideas. It's really understanding that what you think is not just about you, it's more than just about you. It's about the world that we live in as people and it's a great time.
And your book is great. I mean, as I'm listening to it, I'm saying this is really terrific because it gives people a way of reflection, as well as purpose and intention to begin to move into the next part of their journey. And it's okay, you don't fail. On the next part, well, that's pretty cool. Are there any illustrative cases that you can share? Or are they all private cases?
Julia Wolfendale: Confidentiality is with coaching people, so I always really preserve that. That's really important. But I suppose the book really has the tools that I use in coaching that are in the book. So you know, they've come about because they're tried and tested, and they are the things that help people shift their thinking. And I think that what I know really works well is giving people that space to reflect like you say, and think about what's possible, and really tap into their true potential.
And I think focusing on people's possibilities is such a shift because their self-talk can be so negative around what we're not going to be able to do or why we're not as good as somebody else. So I just think through that, and I've learned that through the coaching that perhaps we do share a dim view of ourselves. And through coaching, it's always about discovering what someone's really capable of, and that's really exciting. And through the book, as well, the questions that I asked people to ask of themselves will be ways that they'll discover what they're really capable of. And, even sometimes, just giving people a chance to check in and go at their pace. And that's the beauty of it and reading the book is that it's just all kind of in you. It's in bite sized chunks.
Andi Simon: Sometimes the mirror isn't showing you what is real. And you can have a hard time figuring out where am I? And the pandemic sort of accelerated a lot of those questions. And in some ways, everybody started to reflect on what's next. And coming out of the pandemic is as challenging as almost being in it because you can't go back to what was before, and you're not quite sure what's coming next. And uncertainty is one of those things that make people most uncomfortable, basically should be the way they are. Well, they aren't really and you're crafting them as you're living and you need to see the future if you're going to live today. This has been such fun. Are there one or two or three things that you don't want our listeners to forget? Because those are always important.
Julia Wolfendale: Yeah, so I think that they get to choose, they get to choose how to think and they get to choose what to do with their thoughts. You can choose how to think. You can choose to cut through the noise and to focus on the things that matter to you. But that does require you to sit down and really think, Okay, what matters to me? And if you feel that you've been driven very much by what other people's expectations are, you might find that things feel a little empty for you at the moment for people to really reevaluate and have that kind of life.
Through the book, there's always a big question that helps people reflect, followed by some action questions that really help people move forward with that insight. And I just think everybody's insights are true for them. And everybody's actions have to be right for them. So it's not about comparing with other people, everybody is on their own path. And sometimes it feels like you've strayed from the path. But hey, that can be part of the path to realize too. You're where you don't want to be right now. And that's a chance to come back a couple of steps or take a different turn completely.
And you know, so not to be so harsh in judging how you are in your situation, and remind yourself that there is a way to rethink and think yourself out of a particular situation. But a lot of it will mean thinking well of yourself. And just rediscovering really what's available within you. Coaches always think about things particularly like this stance. As a coach, I'm very much a supportive, challenging coach. But I really believe in people's resourcefulness and reminding people of that. I think it's important to sort of tap into what's already there, and how it can be reused and then kind of used to point the way forwards for somebody.
Andi Simon: And what's so exciting about what you're saying is that it's in your hands. I preach that as well. If you think that the problem is outside yourself, that's the problem, because you can't fix the outside of yourself. You only can fix how you see, feel and think about it. And if you can't craft a new story, you can't live a new story.
When I work with people who move this way, as you're asking them hard questions, you have to come to the point where you're ready to move this way to begin to hear your own self, your heart beating. If you can focus on that heart, and begin to see what makes you remember, we decide with the heart, and the head comes in as the eyes, the heart, the gut, and then the head. So don't try and beat yourself out of it. You've got to feel yourself out of it.
Julia Wolfendale: That's right. And those boiling points, notice that you're experiencing those even if people like you aren't. If that's your experience, notice it. Notice what you can do about it, rather than kind of sit with the problem too long. Because though, that's when we get really stuck and withdrawn and disengaged and disillusioned and disconnected. And it's so much harder then, isn't it, to kind of come back and offer up your best self to the situation. So just notice that it's good.
Andi Simon: Often when people look at career changes, I say, Well, have you spent any time with anyone who's in that career? Often, somehow they're imagining what it would be like to work in that field. I say, Well go. Take a leave from your job and go test out your imagination and see if something is better than what you have. But you may not really know what it is and why it's better. And just give yourself a little room to grow.
I'm an explorer by nature, my archetype. I'm an explorer. And I like discovery. I'm an anthropologist. I like to see things. All of the folks that you're working with need a little time to step back, pause and take a look at where they are and what comes next. And it's okay, and it may not work. I taught a course on entrepreneurship as a visiting professor at Washington University. And every one of the entrepreneurs said the same thing. I opened three businesses and I never failed. And I thought, interesting way to distance yourself from the outside. And never think of yourself as the problem.
Where can they find your book? And can they buy your book on Amazon or someplace?
Julia Wolfendale: Absolutely. Yeah. So the book Five Ways to Focus by Julia Wolfendale is on Amazon, in the US and the UK and worldwide. And also on my website ontheupconsulting.com. And there's more about the book in there and what we're referring to coaching and consulting services as well.
Andi Simon: Okay, my friends, thank you for joining us today. Julia, thank you for joining us. It's been such fun. Your book is full of really important insights about how people can see, feel and think in new ways. So it's actually perfectly aligned with what we try to do and help people. For those of you who are watching, thanks for coming. It's always a pleasure. Remember that you decide with your heart and your eyes. So if you're stuck, or stalled, go explore. Spend a little time talking to people, maybe even Julia, maybe even me, but begin to think through, who am I? Where am I going?
You don't have to do it alone. You often need an echo back or place to vent, someplace to see, feel and think about where you are in life at a moment. And when you get too closed in, you don't see anything that's going on. Your mind deletes anything that challenges that story you've got. It's time for a new story. But you don't need to do it all by yourself and create it. And remember, your brain loves the habits, the familiar. They love the story that you've got, and they love pleasure. But it's what you're doing, giving you pleasure.
So it's a great time to pause, step back and rethink the five forces that will help you do that. So on that note, remember, I love your emails, info@Andisimon.com . Our website is Simonassociates.net and my books Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights are both on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and local bookstores. And they continue to sell now. On the Brink came out in 2016 and it's still going strong. So I thank you all for just being good fans. Thanks again. Have a great day!
Hear what good leaders should really be thinking about
Richard Medcalf describes himself as "what you get if you were to put a McKinsey consultant, a slightly unorthodox pastor and an entrepreneur into a blender.” In this podcast, you'll hear from an amazing thinker who has tackled strategic challenges in companies all over the world. In his new book, Making Time for Strategy, Richard speaks about the difficulties he has encountered working with high-powered leaders. Far too often, they find themselves focused on the wrong things---from how to respond to emails to how to get tasks completed on time. Instead, Richard preaches that a leader’s mindset should be focused on the future, where the organization is going, and how everyone in that organization needs to be aligned around a core strategy to get it there. Listen and learn!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Richard outlines four important ways you can refocus your time and energy to get where you want to go and find pleasure in the journey of getting there (TIME):
- Tactics
- Influence
- Mindset
- Environment
About Richard Medcalf
Richard founded xquadrant in 2017 with the mission of helping elite leaders reinvent their success formula and multiply their impact on their purpose, their people and their profit. He is bi-national (English and French), lives near Paris, and is also a licensed lay minister in the Anglican Church. You can connect with him on LinkedIn, Twitter and the xquadrant website.
Ready to be a better leader? We recommend these for great learning:
- Blog: How To Be A Highly Effective Leader During Turbulent Times: The Five Things You Need To Know
- Podcast: Sara Canaday—Can You See The Gaps That Are Holding You Back From Being A Great Leader?
- Podcast: Kris Baird—Yes, You Can Teach A Leader How To Lead
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And my job is to help you get off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways, so that you can change. And if you come here and listen, you know that each time I bring you somebody new, it's because they've done something that really is transformative in some fashion. They're tackling a problem that my listeners, my audiences, my viewers are all tackling as well.
And I'm so really honored today to have Richard Medcalf here from Paris. And it's a wonderful opportunity for us to share his new book, Making Time for Strategy, but also to share Richard. Let me give you a little bit of Richard's personality. He sends me an email, and he wants to be on my podcast. Why? "The first thing is because I'm a fan," he said. "I will thank you for the time and energy you invest in putting this out into the world." I have not had many of those emails, even though I have lots of emails from our listeners. But that was really a sweet opener.
The second: he said he was sure that my audience, our audience, will find value in the topic, because many of our listeners will be running teams or businesses and hitting the ceiling of complexity, as daily operational demands suck all their time, leaving no space for strategic thinking. Now I'm a Blue Ocean Strategist. I work with lots and lots of companies who are seeking to create markets, not simply compete in them, which is Blue Ocean thinking. And they often get so tied up in making the plan, they forget they have to do something with it.
And conversely, though, if they don't think about the plan, all their actions can take them nowhere, a very good point we're going to focus on. And Richard thinks I'm a good speaker, which we will see today, because I think he's a good speaker. He describes himself as what you get if you were to put a McKinsey consultant, a slightly unorthodox pastor, and an entrepreneur into a blender. So you have an idea of what we're going to talk about today.
He's the founder of xquadrant, and a trusted adviser to exceptional CEOs and entrepreneurs and their leadership teams. I think you're going to enjoy him because he has advised all kinds of folks in all large and small companies. We're going to let you hear his story from his own perspective. It's much better than reading it. But he's binational. He's both English and French and lives near Paris, happily married and the proud father of two. He's also a licensed lay minister in the Anglican Church, and has an insatiable love for spicy food and the electric guitar. Is that enough for us to think of this mash up today? Richard Medcalf is joining me now. So happy to have you on today.
Richard Medcalf: Yeah, thank you, Andi. Pleasure to be here. And thank you for the great intro.
Andi Simon: Tell our listeners and our viewers who is Richard Medcalf, because your background is rich with experiences that have led you now into your own business. I liked what you discovered as you were wandering through. You have been very successful, whether it was Cisco or elsewhere, and who are you so that they can now understand why you're so focused on making time for strategy.
Richard Medcalf: Yeah, thanks, Andi. Well, obviously strap yourself in if you've got a spare six hours, because talking about myself is my favorite topic. So here we go. I'll try to keep it brief. I better keep it brief. But so yeah, so I grew up in the UK. Started at Oxford University, went into strategy consulting, started at that point to move over to Paris. Five years later, I'm still here. I'm married to a French woman and have bilingual kids and everything else. So life doesn't always take you in ways that you expect.
When I was at Bynum, in my strategy consulting company, I became the youngest ever partner. I'd been there about 10 years, and decided it was time to become a smaller fish in a bigger pond, rather than a big fish in a small pond. And Cisco was knocking at my door, and I thought it'd be interesting, you know, a huge tech company. Joining them, I did various roles. The last role was a small team set up by the CEO of Cisco and its chairman in order to kind of catalyze strategic relationships between Cisco and its key customers.
I like to describe it as fulfilling rash commitments made by the chief exec when he was talking to big customers. And that was all great. And I enjoyed that. And it was quite prestigious in its own way and all the rest of it. But I got to a moment when I said, you know, Richard, what do you want as a legacy? What do you want to tell your great grandchildren in the future when you're 90 and they're on your knee, and they're asking you about your professional life, what you did in your job? And I realized that although I really enjoy and I still enjoy creating financial results for my clients, and back in the day, I was doing that a lot. I realized I didn't want to just talk about how I helped AT or whoever it was, increase the EBITDA margin by 1%.
So I started to think, well, what do I really want? What are the real stories that I want to tell, you know, of my life and my professional life? And that's when I started to really deep dive into, what makes me different? What's my biggest gift? What's my passion, all that kind of stuff. And I started to realize that I went to work at this intersection of leadership, strategy and purpose, or to put it another way, helping people, great leaders. I suppose the way I now describe it, or they didn't describe it that way at the time, was, I want to help great leaders reinvent themselves to achieve breakthrough goals that change the world.
So there's a few things in there, that personal transformation, and it's about making a positive impact in the world. So up to now, I've given you all the external facts that allowed me to build this business and my new business. You know, I work with amazing leaders, CEOs of billion dollar companies, some of the founders of scaleups, tech unicorns.
One of my clients is an Olympic medalist and is now building a billion dollar business. Another of my clients was nominated as Entrepreneur of the Year by Ernst and Young. These are amazing people. But they're already impressive, but they're looking to connect their impact or make it make a big difference.
But let me take you back to my childhood. With me, my sister was born mentally handicapped, very seriously mentally handicapped. She passed away just a couple of months ago. And she made a huge impact on me. She was an amazing character, very determined, very joyful. But we had very different paths. You know, like she stayed at home, she needed 24 hour care, a whole care team. She couldn't be left alone. Basically, she was so needy.
Andi Simon: Yes, but it sounds like it had a big impact on who you were.
Richard Medcalf: And yeah, I've realized that recently. Yeah, I realized that recently. I mean, I had this high flying career, went to Oxford. I went to a high tier strategy consulting company. I went to Cisco. I started my business. I move countries, all this stuff. And she didn't do any of that.
And so I have this real sense that when we have the gifts, the talents, the resources, the opportunities, we kind of owe it to the world to make it a better place and to make an impact. And yet I see so often, we end up in our comfort zone, scared of doing things because we're a bit worried about what we might lose if we were to dare to do something different. Even when we're playing a big game, we can be busy, but in our comfort zone. So impact is a huge word for me because of that impact.
Andi Simon: It's interesting, I read an article this morning about purpose. And don't worry about purpose unless you have an impact. Purpose-driven companies don't necessarily do anything, they just have a purpose, and actually I worked with one about a month ago. But your point about having impact is important for our listeners, because you are coming to that epiphany, that aha moment, where more of the same of what you're doing, even if it's financially lucrative, or even if it's for good companies, isn't personally purposeful.
And that becomes a real interesting driver for you of what your calling is and why it's so important that you choose where you go, and you do it in a very intentional fashion, so that you have your own legacy and can answer to those kids and grandkids. You know why I've done what I've done in this life? Because it has made other lives better. So tell us from your company perspective, as well as from the book. You know, my segue is, how are you doing that?
Richard Medcalf: How am I making that impact? Well, I think concretely, what I do, we're one-on-one with high-end leaders, CEOs or founders, entrepreneurs, sometimes C-suite leaders with their teams. I have a couple of programs that I run with perhaps more junior leaders. And I'm always helping them think about how they don't need to challenge my thinking. Where do I need to shift who I'm being as a leader in order to achieve things which right now are outside my zone as a reference? And, you know, what is that? What's really important?
I think it's the fundamental question of what's really important in terms of what I want to accomplish, what's really important in terms of where I put my attention and my focus? What's really important in terms of where I build my skills? I think I described myself as being strategically lazy. I've always been a strategist. So my life, you know, it's why I got to the top, first at Oxford University, because I just knew where to put the focus, and what was important, what wasn't so important when I was studying. And I think it's strategic laziness. I just want to get a big result by focusing my efforts on the key areas.
So I think I bring that to all these different parts of leadership, from ambition to goal setting to habit formation to dealing with people. That's kind of, I guess, the fundamental part. But what I find is that in all those conversations, whenever I sat down with a new leader, and we were looking at how you're going to multiply your impact, how you're going to, really just in the exponential, how you're going to break through, the first conversation we would always have, and he was like, "Yeah, I'd love to do that Richard. But right now, to be honest, I'm just so overloaded. I've got so much on my plate. You know, where do I go? Where do I go from here? And how do I even make time for all this exciting stuff?" I know, it's possible for me because that really was the seed of the book that I've now written.
Andi Simon: But it's an interesting reflection. I am an anthropologist, and you're an observer. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about you meeting with your clients and listening to their stories, because we're story creators. And the story was a catalyst to change your own story in your mind. And I often preach that because telling stories isn't incidental, it doesn't stay outside of the other person. And as you're talking and sharing your story, our listeners' stories are also changing.
But what's important is, as you're coaching your clients and they're sharing their sense of pain, success has now turned into, "I no longer have a vision, I no longer can see where we're going. I'm not even quite sure how it's all aligned with a strategy." You had an epiphany, a moment, which said, Wow, there's something here beyond simply helping them personally transform it that could be instrumental for them to get back to being the big leaders who are supposed to be visionaries. And they're not supposed to be worried about managing the tactical details. They're supposed to be leading people into some particular direction. So once you had this epiphany, then the book came out of it.
Richard Medcalf: The first thing I want to just clarify is, for me, strategy is really a shorthand for strategic activity. So as a top leader, we might lead literally focusing on corporate strategy. But no matter where we are in the organization, we always need to focus on what is the most strategic, what's going to move the needle, what's going to have the biggest leverage. And that's really, when I talk about strategy, I mean that.
So for somebody, that literally is: "I need to think about the vision and strategy for my company." But then I need to just step back and think about how am I going to maximize the impact for my business unit, or my department or my team or myself? So, yes, I think the book came out not necessarily immediately, but I started to go, "I've got stories here." I realized that a lot of people think that what they need is a time management book, a productivity tip that you think about how to maximize, filter their emails better or something.
What I realized was that no, the breakthorughs my clients had were in these deep conversations. They weren't just in the area of tactics, which can be important, but it's not everything. So with the book, I wanted to really bring, if you like a transformation perspective, to this question of how do I free myself up for this? So because I realized that was what my clients were dealing with, they knew that theory about, you know, working on the important things, even if they're not urgent, and this kind of stuff, they knew all that. But what was really getting in their way.
And when I realized this, I came to a few key areas I wanted to share. I tested it with those leaders. I tested it with a couple of group programs that I ran with multiple leaders from different companies in and then I realized, yeah, there's a book in this. It's actually quite easy to write because they've got the experience.
Andi Simon: Pause for a second, Richard, because what you're saying is, while they didn't need time management, the title of your book is Making Time for Strategy. And so I just want to make sure that the listener understands that it isn't simply reorganizing your to-do list or your calendar for the day, it's a different way of thinking about what is important, and you're seeing, also it's not just for the senior leadership teams. This should be on every person in that organization's thinking about what it is that matters. So I can also not do things that are off-strategy and are done the way we've always done it, but don't need to be done anymore. Am I hearing you correctly?
Richard Medcalf: Yeah, that's right. I mean, the way I see it, we live in a world of infinity. There is infinite stuff available to us for the first time ever. We've got infinite messages in our inbox, IM messaging platforms, infinite social media opportunities to converse and connect with people, infinite content to consume, to stream, to read, to whatever. It's just like, the more we look at, the more recommendations we get, and we have more to look at. So it's never ending.
And so there's so many opportunities for every leader. It's infinity. And so we can't beat infinity with productivity. Most people, they hit the accelerator, they try to go faster and faster. And they find within hours in the day, they've hit the ceiling of complexity, as it can be called. Where do we go from here? And what I found is, we need to level up. We need to change gear, we can't change gear when one foot's on the accelerator.
We have to start to invest our time, rather than investing more in your business and you're making like zero profit. You've got to invest in the future. You can't make things better, probably you're going to have your costs go up over time and you're going to get a business. Most leaders are running their life like that business. They're using their time. Every day is going and they've not got any margin available to invest in the breakthrough activities to invest in the future. And so they're just running along on a hamster wheel.
Andi Simon: So I'm curious, what did you advise in your book Making Time for Strategy to help them get off that hamster wheel, reassess, and now invest in time? And I love your comments. You can't touch infinity with productivity. And I have a hunch you have a bunch of things that I want to make sure that we have time to discuss with our listeners because I think there's something of great value for them. And I think your discovery is very powerful. Please share.
Richard Medcalf: So in the book, I talked quite a bit to start with about what you want to put your time on. It's really important. So I like to say, you can't free yourself up from things, you've got to free yourself up for something. What if you've actually got a spare minute or spare hour? What do you want to put your time on? What's going to make a breakthrough? So I spend a bit of time talking about that.
And for me, people get clear on that. But in terms of how much we actually get into that freeing ourselves up, there's four strategies to use. And they actually spell the word TIME, which I was very happy about when I noticed that.
So there's TACTICS. We do need a plan to get back into profitability. If you'd like more time, we do need a plan to go get rid of things which are not serving us and to stay at that level. So there is a tactical issue. The issue is that most people have over rotated on tactics, and they haven't thought about the other parts. But if we're actually finding diaries too full, we need to deal tactically with it.
Then I is for INFLUENCE. I like to say, if you want to go on a diet or exercise, the people that are going to get in the way are your own family. Other people are going to want the chocolate cake under your nose, because they're used to dealing with you in a certain way. And when you're trying to change who you are and what you focus on, it impacts them. So in a business situation, you can make your plan or tactical plan for what you want to do and meetings you don't want to be in anymore and projects you don't want to do anymore. But you've got to sell that internally, but tell your boss that "I don't want to be in that. It's not helpful for me to be in that meeting anymore."
But you've got a colleague saying, "I don't want this stuff coming from your department into my department because it's not what we should be focusing on." You've got to sell it to your team. "I need you to deal with things in a different way and stop involving me in the details." So influence is a really key part. That's what I call the Leadership Challenge. How are we actually leading other people so that we can take that higher ground?
Then M is for MINDSET. Mindset is really important. That defines the bounds of what is necessary, possible, desirable in our lives. If we don't, if we don't have a good mindset, a broad enough mindset, well, we believe that we haven't got any choices in this matter.
So I'll give you an example of one of my clients. I was helping him drive some transformational projects for a large company. He was in the C-suite of a several-billion-dollar company. And he was driving through internal transformation projects. I was helping him with that as he was onboarding into the C-suite. One day he comes to me and says, "Richard, I need some tips. I'm spending too much time on my email."
So I joke and say, "Well, you pay me too much money if you want me to go and go through those, but tell me more." He explains, "Well, you know, I don't want to be the guy who's untrustworthy, unreliable or not a team player, who people are waiting on to reply to them, that you're stuck on projects."
Andi Simon: So it's not alone. And it's a common recurring theme. My clients say, "I have to manage my email." But what did you tell him?
Richard Medcalf: So he'll say, "Yeah, so that's why I have to regularly go into my inbox and help people." So I was like, "Okay, I can't help you." "You can't help me?" "Well, whatever I tell you about spending more time on these important projects, you're not going to do it because you want to be a reliable, trustworthy team player. And if I tell you not to do that, you're not going to do it. It's against your values. And I totally understand." "So, okay, well, what do I do?"
"Tell me about your CEO. What does he want us to do?" "Oh, these transformational projects are going to make a big difference." "Okay. Where is your board? That, you know, makes a big impact on the bottom line." "They really want these big projects to happen." "Okay, what about your customers?" "If they were to know about it, they'd really want this internal transformation because it's going to free up the team to work on their projects." "Okay. What about the team itself?" "Oh, yeah. Well, they're desperate for more modern work experience."
"Okay, so you're telling me that all these people want you to focus on these transformational projects?" "Yeah, that's right." "Okay. Well, I put it to you that that's what you're paid the big bucks for, and that when you're in your inbox, you're doing the easy stuff. You're actually being unreliable, untrustworthy, and not a team player. When you're doing the big stuff, then you're being the reliable trustworthy team player that you've been."
Andi Simon: He really had to change his mindset, didn't he?
Richard Medcalf: So in that one conversation, he got it and it was the aha moment. He didn't need any other tips from me because he had shifted his identity in the way he saw things. And so for all of us, we have places in our mind which are holding us back. And that's the mindset challenge.
And actually, before that, let me pause. You don't have to do these in order, actually, in the book, and you can do it even before buying the book. I have an assessment that allows you to actually identify each of these areas. What's your score? What's your total score? What's your score on each category? And therefore, where's your weak spot? Where should you focus first? Because perhaps there's no point doing the tactics if your mindset is getting in the way. Or, you know, if actually you've got the plan, but you haven't got enough influence, then you need to start there. So you can read the book, but not only...
Andi Simon: I'm sure you heard a little pause in our conversation. Richard in Paris froze for a moment. So we're going to pick up the conversation here, because we're down to the E. And the E is an important part of TIME. If in case you haven't noticed, it ends it but it also creates a setting for which everything else is taking place. Richard, please share with us what E stands for.
Richard Medcalf: The final part of the type acronym is E for ENVIRONMENT. Environment is important because I wanted this to be a book for leaders. And as a leader, we have a responsibility to make time for our own strategy, our own focus, but also we need to create an environment where our team can thrive, where our team can focus on what's important as well. And that's our whole organization.
So many organizations, they get caught up in busy work with too many priorities, mindlessly doing what the boss said, without thinking about "Why all this stuff?" And the question for the environment challenge is, how do I scale this into my team? How do I actually create a culture where, when I have something to delegate, my team is able to receive it because they've got TIME.
Or if I've got a new project that I wanted to deliver because I've been thinking strategically, that we have capacity in the organization to take it on. And so for me, that's a really important part. We often focus on our own personal productivity. But in the book, I wanted to focus more on how do I go about changing the culture of my team in my organization, on this topic as well.
Andi Simon: Do you have a client situation you can describe that might illustrate these four points and make them come alive a little bit? I can see them because I'm working with them. I hope my audience can as well. Anything you might share?
Richard Medcalf: Yeah, so often I find that the breakthrough is on an individual basis for one of these points. So you don't necessarily need them all at the same time to get your breakthrough. That's why I said at the start of the book, you can take an assessment to find out which area you should focus on first. But I'll give you some examples.
I've talked about mindset already, the fact that it's one conversation. Let's say around influence, it's quite a key one. Now, often one thing about influence is around not setting the boundaries with people. So often what happens is, we take on things from people and we haven't actually created an agreement with them. So yeah, I've had several clients who've realized, as we've talked about influence, that actually they have not had a real conversation with their own team about what do I expect from you in our relationship? When should you bring a problem to me? And how would you know where you need my support? And how do I want you to bring it to me?
So many times, team members seem like leaders and feel they're being Sherlock Holmes, trying to diagnose the problems that their team brings to them because their team just says, "Hey, can we talk about x. I've got a problem with x." So in the book, for example, it's been one of the tactics which works really well, is the thing called SCARS. It's a five step acronym. It's a way we can bring a subject to a manager in a way that the manager can then really deal with.
So, Situation: what are we talking about here? Context: what's the background I need to know? Analysis: what have I actually done to examine the different options available? Recommendation: what's the one or two options that you'd want to put forward on the table at this point that's memorable, and then Stakeholders is the last one, which is, don't use me as your manager to have to pull rank. Have you spoken to the other people who might be affected by this decision? Do they agree?
So often, many team members come to us wanting us to make a decision so that they can then pull rank and say, "The boss said we're doing it this way." So the Stakeholders are actually key parts of SCARS. The S is quite important to make sure that they're actually managing the stakeholder environment, not just putting that back on it. The point is, when you've got this, when you've got those points, your team starts to come to you with what I call fully formed requests. But they actually know, "Hey, boss, I want to talk to you about the new, unknown Austrian office that we want to open. There are three options, ABC, these are the pros and cons."
That's the analysis. The recommendation is: given all that, I think we should go for the city center office, because ABC, if that's too expensive for our budget, I'd recommend we go for an office by the airport, because of X Y, Z. And we explain that and then stakeholders: by the way, I've talked to the country manager, and he is happy with any of those options. And we've got something we can work with.
Andi Simon: I am fascinated by your insights into how to change people so that they can be more effective, thinking beyond the immediate tactical thing, and how do I get this done. They can do it in a way which shifts their minds, their mindset, so they can see a bigger picture and a better way, changing that culture and culture.
As an anthropologist, cultural change is one of the most challenging things, but one person at a time is extremely effective. We're getting to the point where we need to wrap up, as much as I would love to keep going on. But you know, as you said, you could talk all day. I have no doubt that you have great wisdom to share. Share with us two or three things you don't want our listeners to forget. And then we'll talk about where they can reach you and how they can get the book.
Richard Medcalf: Sure. So I think the first thing to realize is that the number one key performance indicator governing your future success as a leader is strategic time. I view investing in the future to make the future better. It's the difference between leaders who plateau and stagnate and find it hard to progress, and leaders where every year seems to bring new opportunities. It's that investing in the future that's so important and many leaders said they're running on empty. They hardly have any time in the week to work on those game changing projects, so it really matters.
Second thing I want you to remember is that it's not just a productivity challenge.All these four areas: tactics, environment, mindset, and environment are really important. Work on the one that's most important for you. Go and take the test, if you want, on my website; it will help you. But, find out which one is important and really focus on that. Deal with the limiting factor and everything else will become a lot easier.
And thirdly, always get really clear on what that breakthrough project would be. If you've got three minutes, just put a timer on your phone and brainstorm. Just write down questions. If I could answer some questions, if I had time to think and time to work, what would those powerful questions be? That would be a game changer for me. So you might write down, How can I get the best out of so-and-so on my team? How is artificial intelligence going to change my industry or change my workflows in the next three years? You know, how can I be more influential with a CEO? What new networks? Do I need to become part of it?
Whatever it is, start to brainstorm interesting questions. When you do that, I guarantee after three or four minutes of writing ideas down, you'll suddenly go, Oh, there is a new level available to me. There is a new level that I could be involved with if I wasn't so stuck in the day-to-day.
Andi Simon: Richard, I love our conversation. I have all kinds of thoughts, but where can they reach you and get your book?
Richard Medcalf: So the book is available on Amazon. It's called Making Time for Strategy: How to be Less Busy and More Successful. And if you can also go to makingtimeforstrategy.com. Find out details about the book there. If you're interested, I put some resources specifically for listeners of the podcast at my company website, which is xquadrant.com/onthebrink. And there'll be a link to the assessment I mentioned, a link to the book, and a few other resources as well. That could be the best place to start.
Andi Simon: Good, good. And we'll certainly have it up here. And we'll be promoting it as well. I want to make sure the listener understands a couple of things that I was struck by in Richard's conversation. Remember that humans are really futurists. And the only way you can live today is to see where we're going tomorrow, what's the future and the future you don't really know so you create and craft an illusion story about it.
And now the interesting part for you, as a CEO or member of a C-suite or a manager in your organization, is to help the organization see where it's going, for its customers, its stakeholders, its board, whoever else you're really concerned about. But don't do it by just simply looking at that email list that comes in, or the immediacy of something you need to change.
And humans hate change since that amygdala of yours will hijack the new, which is why I bring people like Richard here to talk to you because your brain hates him already. And we are going to love what it can teach you about time and how to invest in it. Because infinity can only be really captured and used well with not productivity, but with reframing it. The changes are here.
Now if you haven't read Bernard Marr's book Future Skills, the skills for looking at data, AI, all types of things that are really right in front of us, please don't wait. But I do think making time for strategy can help you prepare yourself emotionally as well as intelligently for intentional transformation. All the time. Somebody once said the future is all around us. It's just not widely distributed. And I love that. I also know that the future is really here. It's today. And now we have to go push our way out.
Richard, thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure. Now for all of our listeners, thank you for your ideas. Send your emails to info@Andisimon.com and our website is www.simonassociates.net where we talk about all the stuff we have for you there to help you see, feel and think in new ways. My two books are both on Amazon: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. I'm here to help you see, feel and think in new ways. That's what I love to do.
My third book coming out in September 2023 is called Women Mean Business. You can't quite get it yet, but I promise to keep you as you subscribe to our podcast in the loop and let you know when it's available. It's going to be a cool book with 101 women telling you their wisdom so that you can soar. On that note, I'm going to say goodbye. Have a wonderful day Richard. Enjoy Paris.
Hear how to really hear what people are saying in meetings
Imogene Drummond is a woman whose story I love to share. She is bold and courageous about things she wants to do or learn more about. Today's topic is how her new program, ACQUITS, grew out of her interest in helping people communicate better, especially in the virtual environments so many of us find ourselves in these days. Imogene's professional life evolved from her training in psychology to her very successful career as an artist, to filmmaking, and now to working with people to develop their online communication skills. This is so timely. Do enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
ACQUITS stands for the 10 essential principles for successful meetings
This process is based on how we must:
- listen before we speak
- hear what others are saying
- adapt our thinking to understand what the speaker intended, not what we think we heard
- do all this without the body and facial cues we use during in-person conversations
Meet Imogene Drummond
Imogene Drummond is an artist, filmmaker and educator. She has an MSW from Catholic University, was a family therapist in the late 1970s, is the founder and principal of Divine Sparks Media, and is currently Director of Social Media at the Deeptime Network. She studied at MICA's Mt. Royal School of Art and her work has been shown in solo and group exhibitions from New York to Australia. Her paintings are in private, corporate and hotel collections, as well as the National Museum of Women in the Arts in Washington, D.C. Her new program, ACQUITS, came from observing how people behave while engaged in zoom calls, and focuses on teaching people how to change their communication strategies to engage better and benefit more fully from online conversations. You can connect with Imogene on LinkedIn, her website, or by email: imogene@imogenedrummond.com.
Want to communicate better? Here's a great place to start:
- Podcast: Monique Russell—To Lead With Clarity, You First Must Communicate Confidently
- Podcast: Lisa Perrine—Clever, Creative Ways To Enhance And Amplify Workplace Communications
- Podcast: Nadia Bilchik—How To Master Communication In A Virtual World
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And my job is to get you off the brink. So I go looking for people who can help you see, feel and think in new ways, opening your minds to solutions to problems you may be working with or dealing with, but aren't quite sure how to solve now, particularly as we emerge from these years of pandemic. You never want to waste a crisis, and it's a great time for you to learn some new techniques.
And today I've brought to us Imogene Drummond. Imogene is a wonderful woman. I'm going to tell you about her. But she also has a program you're going to be very interested in. It's called ACQUITS, and it's a toolkit for facilitating conscious and effective communication for online groups.
Now that is a really interesting topic. You know as well as I do that we are spending so much of our time online. And for women in particular, it isn't giving us more opportunity to participate. But the dynamics are much more obvious when you're watching men and women, different genders and age groups, on the screen and how we're competing for time and space. And what actually happens with communication, people often saying, "You didn't hear me. I may have said something, you may have thought what you heard, but may not have been what I meant." And so communication is very hard.
Let me tell you about Imogene. Imogene is an internationally-collected painter, award-winning filmmaker, writer, artist, educator and foremost psychotherapist. You're going to say, "How interesting, where did ACQUITS come from?" ACQUITS is a toolkit for facilitating this effective communication. The acronym refers to the lesser-known definition of the word acquits, meaning how one conducts oneself. Imogene's educational course for middle school students combines creativity, self-worth and the universe. That is pretty cool, particularly when we learn that we are billions of years old. And who knows how we ever emerged from a few molecules of this, mixed with the fuel of that?
Options for The Future is the closing piece in a thought-provoking anthology, The Rule of Mars, which was endorsed by Pulitzer Prize-winning scientist and author Jared Diamond. Now, if you haven't read Jared Diamond's work, it's well worth reading. And I have all his books and just love him.
Due to her painting expeditions around the world, Imogene was invited to join the Society of Woman Geographers, whose membership includes explorers of ideas as well as geography, among them, Eleanor Roosevelt and Amelia Earhart and Jane Goodall. I must tell you that when you discovered who I was, I was an explorer. Now I've done a recent self-assessment, and I'm also a philosopher. And I guess that's why you and I have eclectic interests that come together around helping people see, feel and think in new ways. Thank you for joining me tonight.
Imogene Drummond: Exactly. Thank you, Andi. And thank you for the opportunity to be on this wonderful podcast. It's great that you create these interesting podcasts that support women's amazing stories and important work. So I'm honored to be here today.
Andi Simon: Please tell our viewers, who's Imogene? What's your journey? How did you get here? Where are you?
Imogene Drummond: Well, speaking of where we came from, the last 7 billion years, my journey has been really a series of evolutions. And I started out as a psychotherapist, and then I decided I really needed to do something for me. And so I became an artist. And I was painting and going on these trips, expeditions. And then I created a script with paper cutouts. So it became an illustrated manuscript. That was really a new origin story that I thought would help children and help the world.
And then I decided I needed to do more with it. And I made it into a film. And I had never made a film and I decided, Okay, now, really, it's a feel-good film. It's gotten a nice award. But I mean, it needs to help people to be more practical and functional. So I made it into a curriculum. And it became a curriculum at a middle school, a visionary school in Newburgh. So it's just surprising because when I started to go on this journey, I just thought, Well, who knows what will happen? Maybe I'll start painting pastel tulips? I don't know. So I'm very pleased that I just kept being creative. And I kept exploring new ways.
Andi Simon: You know, there's a wonderful book, The Secret to Our Success. And in the book, Joseph Henrich talks about his own realization that human evolution has come about because of our shared collective brain. And as I'm listening to you, I think our listeners would love to know, did you go on this journey alone? Or were you picking ideas up from people? How did you begin to evolve? Personally, you didn't have many careers, you had sort of one person moving through different stages here. How does that happen?
Imogene Drummond: Very interesting question. No one has ever asked me that end. You know, it felt lonely at times. But it's true, I have had a group of mostly women. I did, my father was like a guide. So he was very helpful. But especially this group of Society of Woman Geographers there, the woman who invited me was herself an artist. I just kept finding people who were supportive, and kind of just finding them. Then I ended up with this group, the Deeptime Network, that I'm on the advisory board of, which is why I made the ACQUITS toolkit. Oh, it's interesting. It has not been alone. And I think that's something in our culture, where we're influenced to think about me, me, me. And really, we need to shift and think about we, so that's one of the ideas behind the ACQUITS toolkit.
Andi Simon: So I think that the ACQUITS came about because you saw some unmet needs. You're very much a blue ocean thinker. It isn’t about doing more of the same, a little bit better. It's really about how do I solve a problem, create a new market, find solutions that may be right beneath us, but could be done in a different kind of fashion. Tell us a little bit about ACQUITS and then you can put up your screen so we can talk about the elements of it.
Imogene Drummond: Well, just to give you some background, I've been working with this fascinating cutting edge nonprofit, the Deeptime Network, which provides educational courses to connect us to the cosmos; again, exactly what you're talking about. It talks about this evolution of humans, and the whole cosmos through this.
They were gearing up to shift from having three-month courses to nine-month courses, somewhat early in the pandemic. And I had been on a number of zooms with diverse situations and groups. And there were a number of things that were needed that were problematic in each experience. And the main noticeable one was that, oftentimes, somebody would speak too long. And so I had said to the co-founder and president Jennifer Morgan of the Deeptime Network that some communication guidelines would be helpful to people. And she said, great idea, Imogene, you do it.
Andi Simon: I have a hunch that it wasn't a bad idea, anyhow.
Imogene Drummond: Well, I thought, "You know what, I've been thinking about this," which is why I suggested it. And so I thought, "Okay, I'll run with it." And that is exactly why I developed it. It is to help people be more conscious in communicating in groups online. The techniques are also good for lots of situations, including in-person.
But, I noticed that it's difficult to get feedback when you're speaking in a group on zoom because everybody else is muted. And so you're not hearing things that you might hear if you're in a boardroom or a classroom, where people might be drumming their fingernails or rattling their coffee cups or coughing, or being wrapped with the tension. And also with the monitor, you're just looking at this inanimate technological thing, versus people's real faces. So you don't get the feedback online that you do in real life. So I think there are many reasons why there were problems on zoom that aren’t in real situations.
Andi Simon: You know, in some ways, I am wondering two things. One of which is, many years ago, I did a television series for CBS Sunrise Semesters when people got up at six in the morning to get college credit; it was a long time ago. But I remember talking into the camera with no audience. And sometimes when you're doing a zoom workshop or something, people don't turn on their cameras. And you're talking as if you're doing a television show with no audience. And you have to imagine, and you require a lot of creative emotions.
We, as you and I are talking, respond to each other listening or not, based on my face and how I'm responding. And then you can take it to the next stage, because you're trying to figure out, Am I making my point? Or am I not? So it was interesting, as I went back in time to remember the feeling. Somebody once said to me, as I was recording, You're really good, but you should smile. I went, Ah. He said, When you smile, the thing is that we learn.
But this is very important, because I don't think zoom calls, webs, are going to go away. In fact, I hope they don't, because it gives us a multiplier, both of our time and our topics and so forth. But, I'm also not sure that interpersonal relationships aren't truncated by the very same things that happen in a virtual one, except we don't pay attention to the same way.
And I'll segue into you talking about your programming in a second because I've been starting to go back and do live workshops, or live public speaking, keynotes. And I forgot the high that I get from being in an in-person experience. Now, the audience, when I've done it remotely, gives me great reviews. And, they too, though, are coming back. Because people are herd animals, we like each other. And we must be better when we watch each other. And we can celebrate what others are doing.
Put up your screen, and let's take a look at what the elements of ACQUITS are all about and how to apply them because I have a hunch our listeners or watchers are going to want to do it. And for those listening, I promise you, Imogene will talk you through what is here so you can understand why it's so important for the techniques that she teaches and that you can learn.
Imogene Drummond: Okay, thank you, Andi. So, this is a slide from my PowerPoint presentation with all of the techniques together. And through the PowerPoint presentation that I give about the ACQUITS toolkit, we go into each one in more detail. So this is a summary. And the first one is the A is for agree, and everybody in the course or on the zoom call agrees to these principles or these techniques. So you have to get everyone to buy in first.
And also I think it's interesting because I wrote up these techniques and then it was like, Oh, if we make it into an anagram, it becomes ACQUITS. And there's two definitions for the word acquit. One is the one we're familiar with, where you get off, but the other one is about how you conduct yourself. So this ACQUITS refers to how one conducts oneself.
So the first actual technique is affirm, that we affirm others. The next one is C for contribute. We contribute to the conversation. And that means you don't add something that's not on topic. You stay on topic and you contribute something that is helpful to other people.
The next is the Q. Ask a question, ask people what they mean or to explain better or more clearly, or in more depth.
The U refers to unite. You want to have a conversation where people are getting feeling connected versus disconnected. So we want to keep this attitude of uniting people.
The I is for include. Let's make comments that include people; oftentimes there's a quiet or a couple of quiet people in the group. So it's important to remember to include them.
The T is for "think gratitude," is so important, really goes a long way to facilitating connections and good communication.
So the next three really refer to the idea of helping people speak more succinctly and clearly. So Share and Stop. The S means stop, give one idea, not three. Share your one idea, and then stop and breathe, and let other people respond to it.
The next S is for self-regulation, which is to think ahead of time. You know, editing is vital for good writing, right? So, to be a good speaker, we need to edit our thoughts. So if we think that it's important to edit our thoughts first, before we speak, then we can do that better. And self-regulate is about editing ourselves. And also speaking for two minutes, not more than two minutes; a lot can happen in two minutes. And to set parameters as well, that you should try to express your idea in less than two minutes. So that's the very basic techniques, really.
Andi Simon: But when you articulate them, we become aware of them. And if we're not aware of them, we won't know whether we are self-regulating, or contributing or dominating. We really don't know how to do better at sharing ideas, and building, affirming each other's position. It's interesting, because the nature of the online experiences is that I have to manage my leadership academy participants, for example, so everyone has time to talk. And if I don't, some of them will fall asleep.
But I mean, there's an ease with which you go on and off the screen. When we were in person, I had to make sure everyone had an opportunity to talk as well. And the whole nature of talking in a group, it was almost a training session without calling it such. And because I was the orchestrator, as if this was a symphony, and each person was playing a different instrument. But for the whole to really sound like great music, we all had to come together over the same piece of music. What are we here for?
The metaphor was interesting because nobody had to duplicate each other. You know, the violins didn't have to play the cello part. And the oboe couldn't play the flute. But you can see them visualize, because that's how we learned what I was trying to achieve on the screen. It's not that different, and a good presenter knows how to orchestrate it in a way that equips everybody for coming up with ideas, almost preparing them before they come with, You're going to contribute how and how are you going to regulate yourself? So in middle school, what do you do to teach kids?
Imogene Drummond: Well, what I do in middle school is a whole different creativity program that helps to facilitate their own creativity. I don't teach art. And that program combines creativity, the cosmos. Again, I'm connecting them to the cosmos and self-worth. So that's what I'm affirming continually, that in terms of what you just said, they are all unique. There's no two alike, even if they're twins. And each work is unique.
So every time, they're really creating intentional artwork, to express themselves. So every time they do that, I consider it a success, because they have intended to express themselves. And, I just wanted to mention that with the ACQUITSS online, I don't give the whole presentation myself because it's about the process. The whole toolkit is about processes.
And so what I do is I involve three or four other people from the program, and we divide up the text and practice it. And then we share different people, give different parts of the toolkit, the presentation as I go along. And it's been really terrific. It's really working well and engaging people because it's very content heavy. And in the program at the Deeptime Network, one presentation included a Sikh from India, a Canadian with a French accent, an Irish American with a beautiful lilting voice, and me.
Andi Simon: And all of those things added quality and color. I misrepresented you. This isn't being done in the middle schools. Tell us where the program is? I didn't mean to misrepresent it.
Imogene Drummond: The ACQUITS is really for communication to help people be more conscious online. And so I really think educational programs are perfect for it. I'm using it in the Deeptime Network for a nine-month program. It's now part of their curriculum. It's the second week of the whole course. So that people set the ground rules, basically, because it's really about delineating expected behavior. And I think it really helped optimize what they're doing on the network in these courses. They're phenomenal courses anyway. They're fascinating. There's a wonderful community emerging out of it.
And the ACQUITS, it's just made it easier to help people communicate well and be heard. And, for example, it's interesting, Andi, 10% of the participants returned to take this nine-month course a second time.
Andi Simon: Wow, that's great. Isn't that remarkable!
Imogene Drummond: And I think that's a testament to what the course is, and to that, Steve Martin, the facilitator, is phenomenal. But I think the ACQUITS kind of smooths it, it greases the wheels and facilitates it. And I was really excited when one time, Steve Martin, the facilitator of the course, said that ACQUITS is a good model to improve our relationship with the environment. I would have never thought of that. Yes, brilliant idea. How about if we change our relationship to the environment? And here's a set of techniques we could use as guidelines, because they are really just guidelines.
Andi Simon: Yeah. But you know, there's a structure to relating what you've created. Whether you're affirming it or you're self-regulating it or you're contributing,it is a structure to relationships. Well, I'm not sure, as a young person growing up, you really appreciate the possibilities of a structure to those relationships as you're trying to build friendships and play on sports teams. And, you know, everyone is theoretically a guide, but often they don't have anything to guide you with. So this is really powerful. You know, it's interesting because I have a hunch you're leading this somewhere. What comes next for you?
Imogene Drummond: Well, actually, Andi, that's why I called you because I want to get it out into the world. More people in the Deeptime Network, they're using it on their own. But I want to give presentations about it in courses or places that have online meetings on a repeat repetitive basis because then you can use it. It's not like it's not for some. Oftentimes I give a presentation, that's just a one-time presentation about my artwork or something. This is not that; this is about setting the ground rules for a course, like you were saying: the structure of the relationships. So they use it in the Deeptime Network now every year for their nine-month leadership course. And I would like it to be used elsewhere, other educational courses, or any kind of group where people meet online for more than one for multiple sessions.
Andi Simon: You know, I hope our listeners and our viewers consider ACQUITS for themselves in their organizations, or to refer you to others, because I know no other programs like this. I think that the time couldn't be more ripe because as we are rebuilding hybrid relationships, they are trying to figure out, How do I manage other people? How do I build a global business, in a hybrid fashion with the tools that are needed? How do we keep our humanity when we don't see each other on a daily basis? You're shaking your head, right?
Imogene Drummond: Yes, yes, absolutely. Well said, absolutely.
Andi Simon: And when you think about it, we don't realize what we give up when we go hybrid, or what we have to do when we come in. It's very complicated. I can't tell you how many of our clients have people coming in and sitting on their computers doing zoom calls with the people who haven't come in, wondering, Why they drive in for an hour?
I have one prospective client who was upset because they were having a flywheel of hires who are leaving because there was no community to come into. And so there's a moment where this is extremely needed. Imogene, as we think about wrapping up, two or three things you want the listener not to forget, other than they have to call Imogene. As you're thinking through your own program here, you know, what is it that a listener should remember?
Imogene Drummond: Well, I think it's important that we start thinking in terms of shifting from me to we. We have to be more community-minded and not always me first, me first trumpeting my own work.
And also, I think listening is important, but I think we're taught to listen because, how often have we heard, especially as children, our parents or teachers say, Listen, listen to me, listen to this. But I think we haven't really been taught to speak clearly and succinctly in group settings. So I think it's important to learn to do that, and affirming people asking questions, expressing gratitude. All these are easy, but important things to do that really help and they help build bonds with connections with people.
Andi Simon: You know, Imogene said something that I want to emphasize, if you haven't read Judith Glaser's work on creating we, or conversational intelligence. Judith passed away about three years ago, maybe two years ago now. And her work in neuroscience, she was an observational and organizational anthropologist, and she realized that what we were learning from the neurosciences is that the words we say create the worlds we live in.
Others have said similar things, but to use the word AI, your amygdala immediately protects the listener from the imposition of your thoughts on theirs. And the amygdala starts to create cortisol. And it flees it, it fears it, it's unfamiliar to it; anything that is unclear to it, it rejects. But when you say we, the oxytocin in your brain begins to flow, and you bond with the person who wants to build trust, and it creates a solution.
I know how you said we without that context, so I'll add the context to it. Because I think that ACQUITS is about a we world where it isn't about me, or I, but it's about co-creating meaning. Now remember, humans are meaning-makers. We evolved because we can create meaning on things, as the virtual is an interesting catalytic moment for how to create new meaning about what people are saying, what they're doing, and how to behave to do what to achieve what is.
And I do think ACQUITS is very timely. And for those of you listening, I think you're going to want to follow up with Imogene to find out how to become more into acquitting each other for the way we communicate. Imogene, where can they reach you? And how can they find out more about you?
Imogene Drummond: Well, my website is immogenedrummond.com.
Andi Simon: Good, we'll have all that information for you on the video and on the blog around the audio as well. Let us wrap up a little bit because I think Imogene in her creative way, she hasn't quite made a film yet about life on the internet, but she might. But I do think she wants you to begin to see that the new isn't feared, it's something that can be really embraced. And the gap is between the way we're communicating and what we're doing in that communication that could really make for better bonds, the same way she and I are talking here today.
I must tell you that when I do just audio, it's fine for a podcast, but I certainly love doing the video card because she and I are having a great conversation. And for all of you are listening to it. So enjoy the conversation. Let me thank all of you who have been coming to On the Brink with Andi Simon. We launched this in 2017. And the reception has been just fantastic. I mean, you've pushed us into the top 5% of global podcasts. And I'm always impressed with how people find me to say, I'd like to be on your podcast, or bring me people who they think should be on my podcast.
So I open that up: info@Andisimon.com gets right to me. But I have two books out there: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. My third one comes out in September 2023. I can’t tell you its name quite yet, but it's terrific. And you're going to really enjoy learning more about how to see, feel and think in new ways.
That's the whole point of our podcasts and our blogs in the way we are trying to help people do something they hate, which is to change. Don't ever waste a crisis, I tell my clients. Use a crisis and learn from it, and begin to see how to do things better, or at least differently and test them. I love pilots.
In any event, it's been a delightful day to share Imogene Drummond who came to you from the Hudson Valley. Thank you, Imogene. It's great fun. It's great fun to share your story. And I wish you all to get off the brink. So thanks for coming to On the Brink with Andi Simon, and let me know how you're doing. Goodbye now. Have a great day.
Hear how understanding someone's culture can improve lives
I was so excited to have the opportunity to speak with Britt Titus on our podcast. As you will learn, Britt found her calling when she discovered how behavioral sciences and humanitarian concerns could transform the world, one step at a time. The two of us are crazy about behavioral sciences, so it was such a joy to share our fascination with the difficulties people have understanding others who differ from them. Whether addressing Ebola in Liberia and West Africa or helping mothers in Mali avoid malnourishment in their children, Britt is constantly humbled by the challenges of helping people do things that seem so logical to those of us from the Global North. As she says, nothing is as simple as it might appear. And humility can often be the best way to bring about changes that can have a huge impact on health. Don't miss this one!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
It isn’t that people cannot understand what you are saying
They just have different stories in their own minds about what those words mean and how or why to change their behaviors. Solving problems with others requires us to understand what matters to them, what they believe to be truth. Remember, as I like to say, the only truth is there is no truth. Listen in to Britt Titus and enjoy our journey as part of your own.
About Britt
Britt’s background lies at the intersection of behavioral insights and humanitarian action. She previously worked at Nudge Lebanon where she managed projects that applied behavioral insights to issues related to conflict and violence, ranging from gender-based violence to social cohesion and refugee integration. Beforehand, she spent most of her career working for the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) in humanitarian response and preparedness across Africa, Asia and the Middle East, including emergency deployments to Liberia for the Ebola outbreak and the Middle East for the regional Syria response.
Britt has a Master of Public Policy (MPP) from the University of Oxford where she focused on applied behavioral science and completed research at the Behavioural Insights Team (BIT) in London. You can connect with Britt on LinkedIn or her page on the Airbel Impact Lab website.
For more stories about living with a purpose, we recommend these:
- Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose
- Podcast: Pat Shea—Use Your Passions To Become Who You Want To Be
- Podcast: Theresa Carrington—Transforming Impoverished Artisans Into Entrepreneurs
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. As you know, I'm the founder and CEO of Simon Associates Management Consultants. We specialize in applying anthropological tools to help people change. And you know, as I've told you, so many times people hate to change, so we help you see things through a fresh lens and get off the brink and soar.
Today, I'm absolutely honored to have with us Britt Titus. Now this is a very interesting woman whom you are going to love to meet to learn more about and understand how behavioral sciences can be applied in humanitarian ways that you may be unfamiliar with. Let me read you her background and then I'll introduce her. Her background lies at the intersection of behavioral insights and humanitarian actions.
She previously worked at Nudge Lebanon where she managed projects that applied behavioral insights to issues related to conflict and violence, ranging from gender-based violence to social cohesion and refugee integration. She's going to tell you more about that. Beforehand, she spent most of her career working for the United Nations World Food Program in humanity, humanitarian response and preparedness across Africa, Asia and the Middle East, including emergency deployments to Liberia for the Ebola outbreak in the Middle East for regional Syria response. Britt has a Master of Public Policy from the University of Oxford, where she focused on Applied Behavioral Science and completed research at the Behavioural Insights Team in London.
It's really an honor and a privilege to have you here. I'm so glad you could join me. Tell our listeners, it's so much fun. Let's add one behavioral scientist to another who are working in different areas, but in similar ways, sort of tell us about Britt. What's your journey like? Let's make you come alive so people can appreciate how you've applied behavioral sciences to all kinds of different problems. Please, who's Britt?
Britt Titus: Thanks, Andi. Happy to share. So I started my journey really working for the United Nations when I was in my early 20s, which seems like a long time ago now. And, you know, the team that I was working with within the United Nations was really like a fire response department. So we were responsible for responding to emergencies all over the world, across many different continents, which included a lot of kind of rapid deployments for sudden onset emergencies. And so I really started my career by being thrown in the deep end.
My first year with the UN, I was deployed to work on the Syria emergency across Jordan and Lebanon, trying to support the humanitarian community to get aid and relief supplies into the country across borders. And shortly after that, I was also deployed to the Ebola outbreak in 2014, if you can remember that, at that time. So being deployed to Monrovia, that capital, and working within the UN system to try to better respond to the growing number of Ebola cases at that time. And so this was a really formative period in my life. It was extremely rewarding.
But something that was always the most interesting to me was the human element. Why are people responding the way they do? Why, when we, the humanitarian community, are bringing relief supplies to communities in Liberia and West Africa, why is there so much fear, and, you know, the incredible, impossible task of trying to encourage people who are experiencing the Ebola outbreak, to kind of turn over their sick family members to these faceless, masked PPE-donned health workers?
In the midst of this crisis were all actions that needed to happen and we were struggling. We were building these large Ebola treatment units across the country, these large hospitals, and the beds were empty. And so we had to try and understand very rapidly, why are people not bringing their loved ones, their family members to these hospitals. What we understood was, it was the human element. It was the fear, it was the misinformation, it was the rumors. And the very, very difficult task of taking someone who's very ill and handing them over to these places that were very unknown and unfamiliar and foreign.
And so these were the questions that I always grappled with and was so fascinated by. And so, partway into my career within the UN, I really knew that I wanted to go back and spend some time studying a little bit more and understanding how we can shift the way we do humanitarian response. A lot of organizations, you know, the way that we've been doing humanitarian response now is the way we've been doing it for 50 years, and so there's a lot of growing interest in more innovative ways of responding so we can improve outcomes for people whose lives are affected by crisis and conflict.
And so one of those ways that I found, maybe my first week doing my master's of public policy, someone mentioned behavioral science, and I said, what's that? As soon as they told me what it was like, that's what I've always been interested in. I just didn't know the name of it. I didn't know that it had a whole evidence based theory behind it. And so I signed up for every course that I could at the University of Oxford, and really delved deep into it.
The struggle was, of course, that I found that it was being applied in government, and it was being applied in private sector companies around the world. But, it was not being applied in a systematic way in the humanitarian sector to deal with the issues that I cared about, like pandemics, and health, and prevention of violence, and education for people affected by crisis. And so I was searching high and low for people who would be interested in this behavioral science thing. And it was difficult at that time, that was 2016.
I had a lot of really interesting conversations with people who thought it was a great idea. But, it was definitely difficult to get some traction. And so eventually, I found Nudge Lebanon which is a small NGO working out of Beirut, in Lebanon, applying behavioral science to issues like social cohesion between the host population and refugees, health, nutrition, all of these topics that I care so deeply about, and really was able to start start running experiments to understand human behavior, and all for the purpose of trying to improve humanitarian outcomes for people, Syrian refugees, and Lebanese, in Lebanon.
And so that was really the beginning of my career in this intersection of these two areas that I care about so deeply, and eventually found that IRC, the International Rescue Committee, the organization I currently work for, has an innovation team called the Airbelt Impact Lab. And within that, one of their core areas, or kind of tools in their toolkit, is behavioral science and so I joined that team, and now I lead the behavioral science team there. So that's my journey,
Andi Simon: The most exciting part is that you have gone through your own self discovery. At the same time, you're now trying to bring a new perspective and way of seeing things to people who think they're doing just fine, thank you very much. The most interesting part, you know, there are many things that are interesting about what you're doing, but the hardest part is that it isn't working but that's the way we do it. And if that's the way we've always done it, that must be the right way to do it. But it's not working. Well, maybe it could work better. But that's the way we've always done it.
And I can tell you, it's not that different from going into an organization, a business that is fractured, a toxic culture. And they say, well, this isn't good, but it's the way we've always done it. Humans are wonderfully resistant to leaving that shiny object and going to a new way of seeing things that might do better. And the big question is, how will we know? You know, the unknown becomes a crux for not doing it.
And so I'm anxious to hear about some of your extraordinary experiences, helping them honestly do just what we said today: see, feel and think in new ways, so they can really overcome the resistance and do better. Help us understand some of the ways that this has been working for you. How have you been able to start the transformation of people's minds? And you know, breaking down the resistance to change?
Britt Titus: Well, yes. So yeah, normally with our work, applying behavioral science in humanitarian settings, we are aiming to shift behavior in the population that we're serving. So for example, we're aiming to shift behavior of teachers in a refugee camp or parents in a conflict setting. But you're absolutely right, Andi, that the change needs to start at home. And it is really difficult. And a lot of the behavioral biases and the resistance to change that we see in all of us also happens in our own organizations and our own teams.
And so, yes, we are a small team, doing behavioral science work, a team of around four people at the moment, sitting within a wide integration of 15,000 people almost in 40 different countries around the world. So it is no small feat to embed this new approach into the work we're doing. So yeah, I think, you know, a lot of what we try and do with the population, we also try to do at home.
I think one of the good things, one of the opportunities, is that a lot of what teams have been doing for a long time, their aim is ultimately what we're trying to do is try to shift behavior, or help people kind of align their actions with their intention. So supporting populations to achieve the outcomes that they want for themselves, whether that's improved education for their family, improved health, whatever it is, and so often, that's really an entry point for us. Because ultimately, we want the same thing. We want to shift behavior in some way, or help people kind of leverage these drivers of behavior, which can help achieve outcomes.
So that's our first entry point. And so I think, what is important is to first kind of help these other teams see that we're trying to achieve the same thing, which is always important for behavioral science work, is kind of identifying where the kind of similar values are, or where your shared values, your shared objective is, and then coming in and offering behavioral science, and that is something that's going to replace the ways of doing things from before, and it's definitely not a silver bullet.
But what we try to do is help teams see that we can all use it as an added boost. All of these projects, especially for these humanitarian contexts, are working in where the challenges are extremely complex, and extremely just have a lot of complexity in them. Using these tools that can help us understand human behavior, not just at the individual or household level, but also at the system level within a country can be extremely, extremely helpful.
And what's also beneficial is that behavioral science interventions tend to be quite cost effective, whether it's shifting the way that people see an intervention, or using different types of messaging, or helping people plan for the future. These are not tools that are incredibly expensive. And so they actually work very well in these contexts, especially where we're resource constrained, which we often are in a humanitarian context. So there's a lot that we can do there to kind of help people see that this is something that can be added on to their existing way of doing things and be embedded within program development and design and doesn't have to replace it.
I think what's also really important is bringing teams along in the entire journey. So we know that if people are involved in things early on, they tend to have a sense of ownership, which is really good for building momentum and having buy-in. But at the same time, we know that these programs and these projects are only really going to be effective if we have the input of the people who are closest to the problem.
And so it's really twofold. It is important to build ownership. But it's even more important to have their input, because behavioral science interventions are only as good as we understand the context of the problem. And typically, it's our project teams and and our teams on the ground who know those things the best.
Andi Simon: How my head is going through at least a dozen questions. Let me take you through the first question. I'll be an apologist. How do you access real insight into what they think the problem is, or how do you begin to, because to your point, people have a story in their mind and that's the one they're trying to live. Like, we don't want to. You're trying to show them a different way that might be more effective, whether it's teaching or it's abuse in the home, or it's whatever the issue is. So somehow, we have to change their story.
The Ebola one is a perfect one. You know, the big place wasn't the right place for my sick mom. But you didn't know how I felt or my story about it so I'm not going to do what you say. Even if it may be the right solution, but doesn't fit the way we do things. So story, changing your messaging point is extremely important. And it has to resonate with both the people you're collaborating with on your side and the people who you're trying to engage. Because if they don't engage in the solution, it'll just sit on the surface and never get below it. Am I right?
Britt Titus: Absolutely. Yes. What do you do? Great. It's a great question. So I think, traditionally, behavioral science has tended to be a little bit top down. So behavioral scientists get together in a team, they come up with an intervention. You know, they try and understand a bit about the context in which they test that intervention, usually in a rigorous way or with some type of evaluation, but what we've found especially, definitely around the world, but definitely in these contexts, is, we have to spend a lot more time doing this in a more bottom up approach.
One, because a lot of the behavioral science evidence including anthropology and psychology and social sciences is really based in the Global North and stable Western context. And so we don't actually know, as a field, as a community, a lot about the unique psychologies of people who are experiencing conflict displacement, or people who are living in the Global South.
What is challenging about that is that means we have to do a lot better. But there's really an opportunity there as well, because I think it really forces us to be more humble about what we don't know, and really go in and speak to our clients, we call them clients, the communities that we're serving, as the experts. They are the experts in what is going to work best for them. They are the experts in what has been tried before and has failed.
If we create something for them without them being included, then it's never going to be a sustainable solution. Even if we encourage people to take something up once, it doesn't mean they're going to change their behavior in the long run.
And so I have an example of a project where this was very evident in northeast Nigeria. So in northeast Nigeria, and globally, the community has been trying to roll out a different way of teaching children, which is called social and emotional learning, which really tries to improve the social and emotional capabilities and skills of children, especially vulnerable children in places like the ones we work in northeast Nigeria, and Yemen, and Lebanon. And so the reason we're doing this is because there's a lot of evidence in the Global North about how these types of activities that can improve emotional regulation, or conflict resolution in children, have been extremely effective.
And so humanitarian organizations have tried to roll those out in these contexts as well, except they found very little impact or even no impact when they roll them out. This obviously leads to a lot of confusion. Why are these interventions, these very effective evidence based interventions, working in the Global North and not in places like northeast Nigeria?
And so when we went into the project to try and look at this, we had two hypotheses. One was, maybe these activities have not been contextualized enough for the northeast Nigerian context. And the second one was, teachers may not be using them enough for them to have the skill building effects on children so we're not seeing any impact.
And so what we did is, we started from the very kind of most local way we could start. So we started by speaking to teachers, parents, headmasters, to the local government in the area, and trying to understand how they see social emotional learning happening in children. What does it mean to grow up to be a successful, socially adapted, emotionally regulated adult in Nigeria, not in the US? What does it mean to do that in Nigeria, and we learned a lot from that exercise.
What we learned is, the skills that they thought were most important did not sound very much like the ones that we had been trying to promote. From the US context, the skills that teachers told us in northeast Nigeria that were the most important for children to learn were things like self discipline, obedience and tolerance, which is very different from terms like emotional regulation and conflict resolution. And at first, this was quite alarming to some of our colleagues in the US because words like obedience and discipline don't go down so well in the US context. And so, we had some people who didn't want to use those terms.
Andi Simon: Forgive me for laughing, I'm holding back my laugh, because those aren't the right terms? How would they know? Well, they are who they are, and what they know. But I'm sitting here going, we can deny right?
Britt Titus: So yeah, we had this little bit of a moment of tension where the local terms and the locally valued skills sounded very different from what had been promoted and studied in the Global North. And so what we did is, we actually did a mapping exercise where we try to understand: what did these words mean to you? We asked the teachers: What does it mean for a child to be obedient and have self discipline, what does that look like? And they told us things like: being able to focus on a task for a long period of time, being able to work well with other students in the classroom and not getting in fights.
And it was all the same thing that we were trying to promote in the Global North, they just had completely different ways of talking about it. And that was a real breakthrough, because we realized that teachers were going to be far more interested in using an activity that promotes self discipline and obedience than one that promotes emotional regulation, a term that meant nothing to them. And it meant the same thing, it was promoting the same outcome.
And we found as we tested, as we used more of this local framing, and more of this local content, the way we talked about the activities, how we talked about the benefits to the children of engaging with these, we saw more uptake. Teachers were more and more interested in using these activities. And it was almost like, finally, you've created something that's actually for our classrooms.
And so we did this kind of iterative approach of working with, I think it was about 12 core teachers over a year, continually improving, adding more local content to the program, infusing these local framings, to the point where every single word we used throughout this program, from the training to the activity cards to the illustrations, were completely localized.
And we saw really big improvements. And we just did a pilot study that ran for about six months, and found that on average, teachers have been using these activities for about 18 minutes a day, up from pretty much zero. So we're really excited about this progress. And, yeah, it seems to be the evidence so far showing that teachers are really excited and motivated to use these activities for the first time since we've been testing them, so just an example.
Andi Simon: That's a big example. And for our listeners or viewers, think about what Britt is talking about. First, they are co-creating it with the end user. And the second thing is that words create the worlds we live in. And they are words that may sound like your words, but they don't have the same meaning. And the third part is that if you don't understand the story and what they're looking for in the behavior, as opposed to the words, you won't know what it is you're trying to actually achieve.
And it becomes an interesting, I'll call it my aha moment, when you realize that we're trying to both do the same thing really well, but if we don't think of it from your perspective, you know, not mine, and it isn't what I do, it's what you need, how do I help you? It reframes the whole conversation and now we become a support team. And maybe that's not how you see it but our job is to be an enabler, a facilitator, a support team, and then watch what's actually happening and redirect it along, and we become collaborators and partners in transformation. That is a very exciting place to be, isn't it?
Britt Titus: Yes, absolutely. I think you summarized it perfectly.
Andi Simon: But your word humble is very important as well.
Britt Titus: Yes, it's a mindset. But I think putting it into practice looks exactly like what you said. It is working extremely closely with the people that you're designing for. It's treating them as experts. It's co-creating with them at every step of the way. It's making sure that you are checking every assumption you have and everything down to the words and what they mean, and how they know what they mean, to people that might be different from the way you think about them. You know, I think all of those things are the practical applications of a humility mindset. And I think every project could benefit from that type of approach.
Andi Simon: Well, what you're really doing is something very powerful because if you have 4000 folks out there who all think that they know better, and the folks are trying to help, don't, you can't go very far. I don't know if you know Judith Glaser's work on conversational intelligence and the power of neuroscience. She was an organizational anthropologist. The brain assuming they're all very much the same brains.
When you say I the amygdala immediately fears, it flees, it hijacks it, it fights, it runs away from it, it just protects you. You're challenging me. But if we say we, all of a sudden: procreation, the trust, the oxytocin flows through your brain. We bond and if that's the way our minds work, regardless if you're in West Nigeria, or Lebanon, and we say the right words, however that said, and that doesn't necessarily mean we, but it is a different response for reasons that are good, but the mind isn't fighting you or fleeing you. It wants to know how, and that creates a behavioral sciences. An enormous power of transformation. As you're thinking, is there another illustrative case of things actually working?
Britt Titus: Yeah, Absolutely, yeah. So I think another really exciting project we have been working on using a similar approach is in Mali. And one of the big problems that we're trying to address in Mali and other countries is severe acute childhood malnutrition. And so one of the big problems with trying to address childhood malnutrition is being able to detect it and diagnose it. And a lot of children don't get the treatment that they need because they never get diagnosed, and it's too late by the time that they are diagnosed, it's too late in their journey. And, it's too difficult to either bring them back or there's a lot of health morbidities that come with that.
So, in rural areas, like in Mali, where we work, typically the place to get diagnosed is quite far away. Mothers and fathers tend to have to travel very, very far distances, hours a day, if they want to go visit a clinic. And so one of the kinds of solutions within the humanitarian space is to put the opportunity and responsibility of screening children in the hands of parents themselves. And so there's a tape that is given out to mothers which goes around a child's arm, upper arm, and can measure whether or not they're malnourished or not, with a red, yellow, green kind of traffic light type measurement.
The problem is, if you are going to screen your own child for malnutrition, you have to do that every single month at least, sometimes every single week, in order to detect these small changes that can happen that you might not notice just by looking at your child if you see them every day. And so this is a behavior that is quite difficult. It's something that you have to do every single month, which is a very difficult timing to remember. I think, if you and I were told to do something every month for the next year, at some point in the month without a phone reminder, or an email calendar, notification, there's pretty much no way I remember to do that.
And also, these mothers are expected to do a lot. They are cooking for the family, they are cleaning, they are sometimes working. And so, in terms of mental scarcity, and in terms of all the things that they're expected to remember and to do every day, it's pretty much impossible that they remember to do this. And so we've seen in areas where the majority of women were trained on this approach, very little, maybe a fifth of those women, ever use that tape to screen their own children for malnutrition, which is a big problem.
So we wanted to understand why this is happening. What's going on? What is the reason why we're seeing so much kind of drop off after the training, and how can we encourage women to screen their children because ultimately, they want their children to be healthy and happy and to know if their children are experiencing malnutrition, so they can get help in time. So when we did this kind of exploratory phase, which we'd like to do, especially based on what we said earlier, we don't know a lot about the psychologies of women in rural Mali. And there are no papers out there that say how to encourage mothers in rural Mali to screen their own children for malnutrition. There's actually very little to go on.
And if you were going to try and develop a reminder, which is a common behavioral science tool used across the world, if you were going to try and set that up, for example, in the US or the UK, you might send text message reminders, once a month. The problem is these women do not have their own phones, maybe they share a phone in the household. Even if there is a phone, they might not have a signal. Very often it might be in and out. And they might not have the ability to have phone data on a regular basis. So that's really not an option for us. And many of them are illiterate, meaning that even if we sent a text message, it would be very difficult for them to read it.
So we had to come up with a way of reminding women in rural areas without using any technology or any kind of, you know, device or data which we often rely on. And, this is especially difficult in areas where these women have a different way of considering time and timekeeping than we would. There's no calendars in their home, there's not necessarily kind of the same way we would think about timing and marking days. And so we really have to understand how these women think about time. How do they remember to do the things that they already do? What are their existing things that they have to remember to do once a month or once a week? And how can we really leverage what they're already doing and the way they already consider time and piggyback onto that.
And so we did a lot of testing with these women over and over again, going back and back and forth to this region of Mali, and testing and prototyping and showing them examples, which was really fun and they really enjoyed being able to rank different ideas and give us feedback, and they were very honest with us. One of our ideas was, should we get a little device that goes off once a month, a little beeper? They very confidently said, Well, where are we going to get the batteries for that? That's a silly idea. And so they were very, very helpful in that co-creation. process.
And I think we've found across projects that the more time you spend with the user group, the more you build trust, and the more honest answers you start getting. It's not always the case at the beginning. So really investing in those relationships, and seeing the same women over and over again, was very, very helpful for the project, to really get the nitty gritty out of the context and their lived experience.
And so what we ended up finding out is that many of these women are in these informal women's savings groups. So they meet about once a month, with other women, and they pool their savings. And we were like, Great, well, you're already doing this thing once a month. And so we thought, Well, what happens if we piggybacked on that, and we encourage women to bring their children to these meetings once a month, and they can all screen together, which would be socially reinforcing. You'd be seeing other women doing it. It would be the reminder to you and have the ease of doing it there when everyone else is doing it, and you have support of other women if you're not quite sure, if you're getting the right reading especially if you are holding a wiggly child on your lap and trying to get their arm to hold still is, is an impossible feat on its own.
So we tested this out, and they really, really loved it. So we got really positive feedback. And we're able to continue iterating on that idea, and kind of create the social network reminder that came out of months and months of spending time with a population understanding their lived reality that we would have never known had we tried to come up with a solution and implemented in the first few weeks, that took months of getting to know the population before we're able to find that kind of sweet spot between what they're already doing, and what also meets the needs of the program. So we've also just run a pilot study on that and found really promising results from that activity. And women are really excited about using those groups with other women to screen their children for malnutrition.
Andi Simon: We don't have to talk now about what they do if they find out if they are malnourished. But that's another piece of this, but I think that the power of the group is fascinating for Westerners who think about isolation. And families having new grandparents here. There's a great bunch of articles that just came out on the power of the grandparent and that the nature of society and smallest scale societies is very much about each other, about a collaboration. Even if you live in isolation, you need the others to help you save, take care of your kids, and know-how and doing it together. It's much more exciting and fun, and something purposeful, in your mind, as opposed to simply tactical and practical. Yes, it was tactical and practical. Take the measurement, and you'll know.
Britt Titus: Much better to have that kind of social accountability and to have that reminding point, and to know that other women are going through the same thing, which also can help a lot with stigma and norms as well. So we believe that can also be a kind of an intervention that picks up momentum, as people start to see that this is the new norm, and start to see others doing it more often.
Andi Simon: I think you'll probably have a bunch of detours along the journey. I don't think there's a destination per se. But I think the other part you might find is that there'll be self-appointed leaders who begin to take ownership of this and who now feel a responsibility to the group, casual, informal leaders, who now talk to each other in a way that they can see the benefits and then it becomes contagious.
It's so interesting because it doesn't matter whether it's here in the States or anywhere else, humans are fascinating. And if you don't pause for a moment and see through their eyes and how to do it, you can't go anywhere, even if we know where we need to go, it won't get there. And then they're the problem, but they're not the problem. You're the problem. Actually, you're not the problem, either. The problem is a problem. Then the question is, how can we get past it to find some solutions that are clever and creative and innovative?
There's a book called, The Secret of our Success. It's a wonderful book about how human evolution has happened. You and I both love to look back to go forward. But it's because of our collective brains. And what you're describing as a collective brain, not an isolated one. The isolates didn't do very well, they didn't survive very well. But together, we can do far better, in the shareables, and you will almost probably become part of the shareables. You are no longer the outsiders but part of the insider.
This is such fun. You and I could talk for a while. We've probably taken our listeners' and viewers' time up, but I so enjoy the opportunity to share your sharing with us. And I can't thank you enough for doing that. The organization: would you like to share a little bit more about the work that you're doing at the IRC? And how people might find out more about it? And why it should be important for them, please?
Britt Titus: Absolutely, yes. So the IRC is also speaking of looking back in time, quite an old organization. So it was actually set up in 1933, at the request of Albert Einstein to support the Germans who were suffering under Hitler's regime, and also eventually refugees from Mussolini's Italy, and Franco's Spain. And so this organization has been around for a long time, and has also had many iterations. And so yeah, now we're a large organization, as I mentioned, serving around 40 different countries around the world.
And within that organization, we have the Airbelt Impact Lab, which is our research and innovation, part of the organization. And so within that team, we're really focused on trying to create breakthrough solutions in the areas of malnutrition, which I've mentioned, education, and emergencies, which I've also mentioned, women's health, and climate resilience and adaptation for the future climate shocks and current climate shocks that are disproportionately affecting people in humanitarian contexts.
So those are the main areas that we are focusing on with our innovation, behavioral science, human-centered design, and all of these different approaches. And so I welcome everyone to have a look at our website, which is the Airbelt Impact Lab website, which I think you can probably share with people. It's airbelt.rescue.org, to read about some of the projects we've been working on and see how you can support it if you're interested in being involved.
Andi Simon: Don't you love it! You have found your calling. It is so beautiful. Thank you, I don't know where your journey is going to take you, but thank you for sharing it today. And for all of our listeners and viewers, thank you for sharing our podcasts with your network and wherever you can. As I mentioned, we are now in the top 5% of global podcasts. It's truly an honor and a privilege to be able to find great people like Britt to share with you and then you take it from there.
If you've got folks you want us to interview, info@Andisimon.com is just how you can reach us. And SimonAssociates.net is our website. My books are available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And they continue to be best sellers and award winners and having fun. My next book comes out next September 2023 and I will tell you all about it when it happens.
But for now, I want to wish you a safe and happy journey wherever life is taking you. And please enjoy yourself for every day is a gift. And we have to leave it like that. And Britt is doing some marvelous work. Go look at her website and take a look at how you might be able to help her or at least learn from what she's doing. The messaging is very important. She is helping you see, feel, and think in new ways. And that's what we're here to help you do. So on that note, I'm going to sign off and say goodbye. Thanks for it.
Learn what motivates you and others so you can collaborate better
While I have used the Enneagram personality framework with clients, I have never had as great a discussion about it as I had with Karl Hebenstreit. Karl is a certified executive coach, organization development consultant, international speaker and author of two books: The How and Why: Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram and Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision (for younger readers). So what is the Enneagram, you may ask? More than just another personality test or behavior identification technique, this human psychology-based theory opens your mind to how you see yourself, the teams you work with, and the world at large regarding motivation and behavior. Which of the nine personality types are you? Listen to Karl to find out!
Watch and listen to our conversation here:
Ready to learn what makes you tick?
Whether it is the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs or the Culture Index or Hogan Assessments, there is an abundance of tools available to help us see, feel and think in new ways about ourselves and others. You will enjoy this podcast conversation as Karl takes us through his own journey of discovery and how he is using his tools to help people build diverse organizations.
The Enneagram is a really unique, really effective tool
It does not focus on the typical racial, ethnic, gender or sexual orientation conversations about diversity. Or even about neuro- or cognitive diversity. Rather, as you study the nine types of Enneagrams that are all partially inside ourselves, you realize that creating strong organizations requires us to learn more about each other and build better together. Are you an Active Controller? A Considerate Helper? An Enthusiastic Visionary? You might just be surprised.
About Karl Hebenstreit
With 25+ years' experience in the biotechnology, healthcare, telecommunications, high-tech, pharmaceutical and real estate services industries, Karl is an expert at building relationships at all levels, fostering and integrating collaborative environments, and leading and motivating others to realize their full potential by adopting new mindsets to achieve extraordinary results. To contact Karl, find him on LinkedIn, his website www.performandfunction.com or by email: rkarlh@gmail.com.
To learn more about how personality types affect collaboration, start here:
- Blog: Achieving Business Change Using The Enneagram Personality System
- Podcast: Maureen Berkner Boyt—Yes, Diversity And Inclusion Can Happen But Only If You Work At It
- Podcast: Johanna Zeilstra—Let's All Build Companies That Make Gender Fair
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon, your host. As you know, I'm the founder and CEO of Simon Associates Management Consultants. You also know that I don't like to do too much promotion on this podcast. What I like to do is celebrate the guests whom I'm honored to bring to you so you can do something special: get off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways.
Fast-changing times are asking you to do just that. Most of us hate change. And we're not quite sure how to really respond. But I promise you, never waste a crisis. And even though the pandemic seems to be sliding back, the new is so unfamiliar. And I don't care what kind of business or work you do, you're facing people who are also trying to adapt to fast-changing times. Somehow, you're going to have to figure out who they are now that they're hybrid. Are they the same people that used to come into the office? What do I know about myself? How do I manage this wonderful array of people now, some are in, some are out?
The world has become global, and AI sticks its nose into the thing and chatbots are doing all kinds of stuff. How can I help? So today I have Karl Hebenstreit with us. And Karl is a wonderful individual I will tell you about. And then he will tell you about his own journey.
Who is Karl? Karl is a certified executive coach, leadership and organization development consultant, and author of two books that I'll tell you a little bit about, and an international speaker. His career spans the areas of HR and OD in biotech, clinical diagnostics, life sciences, healthcare, pharmaceuticals, and many other industries. He has really taken his expertise to places that needed him.
He holds a PhD in organizational psychology, and is helping organizations to attract, retain and motivate employees. He has an MS in HR management from Rutgers. And so he's in New Jersey near us here in New York. But it's really quite interesting. He's the author of The How and Why: Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram now in its second edition, and a children's book called Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision. I'm not sure which we're going to spend more time on, the really tough decisions. And don't think that even though you're grown up, you aren't still Nina and trying to figure it out. Karl, thanks for joining me today.
Karl Hebenstreit: Thank you so much, Andi, this is a pleasure and an honor and privilege to be with you today. And absolutely. You are so correct. And we are all Nina, we all have Nina within us forever for our entire lives. And how do we access Nina? And how do we access all of the gifts and just perspectives that she can get from everything that's within her? And that's really what we're here to talk about today.
Andi Simon: Well, you've had a wonderful career and a journey and people like to hear your story. Who are you? And how have you come to the point where this has become a focus, because I think it's evolved for you, hasn't it?
Karl Hebenstreit: It really has, and I love to say that it was planned and strategized, but it wasn't. The only planning and strategizing was that I needed to get an education to be able to figure out what I'm going to do in this world and how I can impact change. And I started in one direction and ended up in a completely different direction and that was the right direction. So yes, as you said, there is a total East Coast connection. I was born in New York on Long Island, Mineola, Long Island, and was raised in Greece, my mom is Greek. So we went back to Greece when I was two. And I was there for seven years.
I came back to the United States with my parents with a Greek accent, which maybe every once in a while you hear some weird syllable or pronunciation, but it's pretty much all gone. And we settled back in Old Bridge, New Jersey, and I was in New Jersey for pretty much the rest of my formative years, until I moved to California in 1998. And my formative years were spent, as you said, in New Jersey, my education was from Rutgers. My undergrad is from Rutgers. My master's is from Rutgers.
And I really didn't know what or where I was going to go with my aspirations. My parents had ideas for sure, just like everyone's parents do. And my mom steered me towards languages and I started learning French and Greek as part of the school system there, along with Greek and English of course, and my dad was/is very much about politics, so he was political science, so I dutifully said, I'm going to do French and political science as a double major. I can use them. I can become a diplomat and lawyer or who knows what I'll become but that's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm going to pursue and I dutifully went forward using those as my majors.
And then I took an elective course in psychology. And my eyes opened up. And I'm like, wow, this is interesting. This is really, really cool trying to understand people, trying to figure out why they behave the way they behave, why they do the things they do, what's brought them to where they are. And I took more and more elective courses because I needed elective courses to graduate. And I got to the point where I ended up with a minor in psychology, but I still had one more semester to go. And I figured out, you know, if I just take six classes in psychology for my last semester, I can get a third major. So it'd be psychology, French and political science.
So then that gives you a little bit more of a hint of where my Enneagram type might be because of a wing of mine, probably that went into play there, which I didn't know at the time. So yeah, I ended up graduating from Rutgers with a triple major in psychology, French, and political science. And at a time, this was back in 1993, and the economy was not very good. So I ended up figuring, well let me start trying to find work. I couldn't find anything that I could use for my degrees.
So I took this one course in industrial and personnel psychology as it was called back then. And I thought that was it. That's really the direction I want to take. But how do I get into that? So since I wasn't able to get a job right away in an area where I wanted to go into, I decided, well, let me get a temp job, I can become a temp. I was a temp during all of the school vacations and the holidays and everything like that.
So back to the temp agency: I said, I have these parameters. These are my boundaries that I really want to focus on a job in human resources and a large organization that's headquartered here, which hopefully that would mean I'd get a job there after being a temp with them, and proving myself to them. And it had to be in the human resources department for the long term. It couldn't just be like, you know, a day here and a day there. It had to be something that was substantial.
So they came through with me with Merck. Merck was a huge or is a huge employer in New Jersey, obviously. And I went to work there covering maternity leaves. I did two years of covering maternity leave after maternity leave after maternity leave, lots of people got pregnant at Merck. I don't know what was going on there. But yeah, covered for all the maternity leaves, and at the same time, at night was going to school for my master's in HR management. So it was a really cool way to pay for my education, and get to practice what I was learning during the day at work.
So that's what immersed me in the field of human resources. And when I eventually moved from, eventually landed a job at AT&T, which then moved me from being headquartered in New Jersey, moved me from New Jersey to California, which is where I ultimately always knew I wanted to be. I don't know why it was just within me, ingrained that I was going to end up in California somewhere, didn't know whether it was going to be, north or south or wherever.
I ended up in Northern California, knowing no one, absolutely no one, just moved out here. I knew this is where I needed to be. And that's where I fell into the Enneagram. So I decided my HR career was great. And I loved many, many aspects of it, but I wanted more. And so the next step, the next evolutionary step would be to go into organization development. And how do I do that? I need to get more of an education. So through AT&T's very generous tuition reimbursement program, I went to school again at night for my PhD in organizational psychology in California, and that's where I was introduced to the Enneagram.
One of my professors was friends with Helen Palmer, who is a big name in Enneagram. She's in the peninsula. And she came in for one of our classes. It wasn't even a whole semester long class. It was just one class. And she came in and she introduced us to the Enneagram. And much like you, I know you use Myers-Briggs in some of your engagements, I was a Myers-Briggs guy. Myers-Briggs was great. It was awesome. It helped explain how things worked. People understood more about themselves. They understood more about their co-workers. People weren't crazy, or maybe they were but they were at least explainable.
And then I found out that, Oh, wow, Myers-Briggs just scratches the surface. And we really don't know what's below the surface, what's causing or motivating those behaviors that we're seeing that Myers-Briggs is telling us that we do. So Helen Palmer explained that, all in that one class, that one less-than-three-hour class, and I was hooked, I was so hooked. I originally thought I was a certain type. All my classmates said Yeah, right. You're not, look at your actions. And they were right. Because we always want to be something we're not.
Andi Simon: We don't really know what we are. And we don't have a good mirror to help us do that. And, consequently, we know humans are storymakers. We create a wonderful living story. In our mind, our mental map, and however we create it, that's where we live. We only see the things that conform to it. And if it doesn't fit, we just scrap it. We didn't delete it and so we're good at that.
And so an Enneagram begins to create a way of understanding that story through a really sophisticated lens. They're all trying to help you see yourself through a fresh lens. What's interesting is that, I just want to pause for a moment because people listening and watching, you too may have had an epiphany at some point. I discovered anthropology when I was an undergraduate. And I really didn't have a major. I was wandering, trying to figure out what life was about. And then I took one course and next thing I know, I went, Oh, wow, this is who I am, not just what I want to do.
It sounds like that's what we did. It's a calling. And so I am, and then I went to Columbia, and I finished it, but it's a very interesting feeling. And so if you're listening or watching, don't miss it when you have that aha moment in your brain. I can remember the professor, it was like, wow, yeah. While the Enneagram may help tell you more about yourself, you know, sometimes somebody will help you see yourself in ways that you couldn't imagine. And I don't think those are separate. So when you discover this, you know what you do with it.
Karl Hebenstreit: I wanted to know more. Just that one three-hour class wasn't enough. I wanted to know more. So then I became involved in the International Enneagram Association, went to my first conference, started seeing all the different presenters and seeing what the different ways that people were using the Enneagram were. I really saw how I wanted to use it in business because I was in business, I was in human resources at the time. And I saw the connection.
I was doing lots of recruiting at the time, and I saw how we were recruiting for the same type over and over and over again. And we were recruiting not only in our own image, but in the culture of the organization. We were excluding certain people right off the bat because we weren't acknowledging different drives and needs that they had that would be important for them to have in an organization, to offer them those options, for benefits, for culture that they would need.
And the realization from a diversity perspective is that we do need all nine of those different drivers and perspectives in any group, team or organization. Otherwise, we're going to succumb to groupthink. And we're going to miss out on serving the needs of this whole other populace that is not being served, whose interests are not being thought of or considered.
So that's where I just became totally immersed in it. And sort of practicing experimenting in the organizations for which I worked at that time, this was after 911. So AT&T had done some major layoffs. I was then working with many other different companies, and was able to practice the Enneagram and use the Enneagram model and framework in many different settings.
I know traditionally, it's been used mostly for individual coaching, executive coaching, and team development and team building. But, there were so many other applications that I saw from all the other models that we use as consultants. And I saw the overlaps and the correlations. And I started saying, hold on a second, why do we need to know all these different models? What if we just tap into this one model and use its robustness for all these different applications?
Andi Simon: There are so many and I can begin to wonder how many colors you are with disk and you know what, what flavors are you and what does it really help you do? So can you give us and the listeners and viewers some idea about a problem where you applied it, or a case study that worked well, because I want to dig a little deeper. We're torn in our society, between embracing the words diversity, equity, belonging, inclusion, and living it and being an apologist. Birds of a feather flock together; humans are herd animals and they feel the safest, out of danger, when they're with people who are like them, who look like them, talk like them and affirm them.
I mean, we live with a mirror and we're looking for a mirror that looks like us in some fashion. But cognitive diversity, neurodiversity, racial, ethnic and gender diversity and sexual diversity, bring new ideas and new ways of doing things at a time when we really do need to embrace them as well as to realize that that's the world we're in. And I have a hunch you've been applying this in different places. Can you give us a couple of illustrations?
Karl Hebenstreit: Absolutely. The one that immediately comes to mind is when I worked for a clinical diagnostics company, and my clients. I was internal. And my clients were the R&D division. So I had the Vice President of Research and Development, and all of his direct reports. And they had the introduction, and I did an introduction to the Enneagram for them. They loved it. They saw they understood each other better, and it was more for their own team development.
But they were struggling, it was a type six company overall, and still is, I believe, and it was very much about that conservative nature, which really doesn't work in an R&D environment. You need to promote innovation and experimentation, and not basically punish people for exhibiting those behaviors that may not be successful because not all of R&D is going to be successful.
I saw something somewhere that said, If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't be calling it research. So it's experimentation and learning from failures, and not really punishing the people that went out of the box and did that. So they're struggling.
Andi Simon: They want to create a new sandbox, but God forbid you walk outside the door and try something new.
Karl Hebenstreit: Exactly, it's unsafe, you can't do that. So they knew the Enneagram. And this was a totally different engagement. We were totally different off site, because they were talking about empowerment. Empowerment was really something that they were wondering, why aren't people innovative? Why aren't they taking the initiatives to take things on? Why are they always coming to us for approval? Why does it have to go up the chain? And again, type six company, right?
Andi Simon: So the second type six is a loyal skeptic? Is that what we're referring to?
Karl Hebenstreit: Exactly! The loyal skeptic, their superpower. The type six superpower is the ability to see every single worst case situation that could possibly happen and plan and prepare for it, is how they stay safe. Because if it does happen, they are the ones that you want to follow. They have the plan, they have the kit. They have everything planned out and thought through and just follow them and you will go to safety.
Andi Simon: Until there's a pandemic and they haven't got a clue what to do.
Karl Hepenstreit: Exactly, exactly. They're more conservative there, you know: I need to stay safe, I need to be secluded, I need to be isolated. That kind of thing until they can figure out exactly what is the safest way to do it. And of course, we can dive a lot deeper into this. And there's a subtype that takes it to a different extreme where they push the boundaries, and they want to say, what will it take for me to be safe? Let me go and do all these outlandish things to know what the possibly horrifying, terrifying effects are and then plan for that afterwards, so that I know that it will be safe if these things even happen. So I will go skydiving, even if I'm afraid of heights, that kind of thing.
So thank you for bringing that back to type six, the loyal skeptic and a little bit more conservative to be safe, to stay safe. And necessarily push those boundaries unless you're that specific subtype, or instinct. And what I thought I brought to them was because they were struggling, they were coming up with all these different things through their own lens, their own cultural lens that had all those barriers around it, all those walls around it. They couldn't figure out how to help their employees be more empowered. And I said, Hold on a second, you have a model, you think about what this model has taught us, right? So what if we created this structure that we have in this culture that we have that needs a safety net? Let's create a safety net that helps people be empowered.
So why don't we look at the nine different types on the Enneagram and the insights that they provide and let's think about how we can help people say, let's look at what a type one lens would help us choose or look through. And that will be the perfectionist, that would be the mission, that would be the quality.
So if someone has an idea as an employee, and wants to do something that's out of the box, have them go through each of the nine types and the questions that would be offered by them. And if they can answer them in a positive way and say, Yes, I've considered all these nine types and I know that this is going to work or it should work from everything that we know. And they go forward with it without running it up the flagpole, and if something does go wrong, or the pandemic strikes or whatever, that we didn't plan for, oh, well, this person did everything with due diligence in the positive intent.
And, most of the times that would have been successful. But, if you know we have this weird one-off, the pandemic or some other thing that happens, we couldn't plan for that anyway. So guess what? The vice president would probably make the same decision if they did it with good faith and good intent and due diligence and followed all nine questions or nine perspectives. Something fantastic will have come of it, or they will learn a lesson and reapply it and tweak it and make it into something fantastic. And that's what can help us drive that innovation and empowerment that we're looking for, rather than people feeling like, if I do something and it goes wrong, I'm going to be punished.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, part of the challenge, since we do a lot of work on cultural change, is that culture defines the way we do things here. And if you deviate from the way we do things here, it is scary, because you become an outsider. And, you know the book, The Secret of Our Success: How Culture Is Driving Human Evolution, Domesticating Our Species, and Making Us Smarter. I love that we've evolved because of this collective brain that we've shared, and not because of isolates who have fooled us, sometimes they have.
But it is an interesting opportunity. The Enneagram, though, gives you a methodology for really understanding diversity in two new ways. And if you all find yourself at sixes, then you're going to have a hard time trusting anybody who comes in as an explorer or an inventor. But you could if you understood the differences there. Are there some illustrations about how it's being used to embrace diversity, and begin to understand what it means, something you can share perhaps?
Karl Hebenstreit: Absolutely. There's actually some really great work through Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton. And she just published a book called Know Justice Know Peace: A Transformative Journey of Social Justice, Anti-Racism, and Healing through the Power of the Enneagram. And I love the way that she presents the Enneagram as a way that we have all these nine styles within us, and how do we tap into them. And obviously everyone is not at the same level of integration or healthiness in their journey, their development journey, and understanding themselves, and seeing how the Enneagram can help them be even more effective and productive and happier in their lives.
So there are three different basic levels. And the really cool thing is, she shows how each type has this opportunity to leverage these gifts, the superpowers that each type has, and ultimately lead into an ally, to become an ally for all elements of diversity. So wouldn't it be great because we do have all nine types within us? We just concentrate on one core, that's our core motivator throughout our entire life.
But wouldn't it be great to also explore these other eight styles that we have within us and see when they would be more appropriate in each different situation and know that other people are leading with one of those eight other styles or our style as well, but maybe through a different subtype or instinctual lens. And understand that we need all those nine perspectives in order to see the world as it really is, rather than just that 40 degree sliver that we're looking at it through.
So there's an application that way, where we can teach people about the Enneagram. So it doesn't really take into account heredity, or sexual orientation, or race or anything like that, but it's all about, we're all human. We are all human. And we all share these nine primary motivators. And let's understand each other through those nine lenses and not exclude them, not separate them, but include them and integrate them into ourselves as well. So we have this robust, diverse power that we can then catalyze for making change, and making the world a better place.
Andi Simon: Karl, if I hear what you just said clearly, and clarify for me, the words that are being used around diversity, all the different categories are fine, but maybe we should change that thinking not around gender, or sexual orientation or race or other things, but think about us as people who have different parts of us operating in different ways, nine different ways, to be looking at our different Enneagrams.
I remember when I did mine, it was a one something and a seven. But I'm an explorer, but I'm also an artist, and I've been a boss. I've been, you know, EVP of a bank, and an achiever and the balance of them create who I am, not one, but all of them that I'm heavier in. And then there are others where I'm even an anthropologist, and I know I'm a server, I really do five things all the time. And a skeptic, not much. I don't over-plan, and I let life move me through a journey. But what's interesting about it is that it redefines the diversity that you need for effective relationships for effective business. And that makes sense, right? And now it gives us a platform on which to understand each other, as well as to personally know how we're evolving within the organization. Right?
Karl Hebenstreit: And, tapping into the differences, because knowing that whatever every organization is going to somehow end up being a certain culture, it's going to align with a type one culture or two cultures, whatever one of the nine cultures just because of the nature of the industry, the nature of the leadership, and just who it attracts that way.
However, wouldn't it be great to find the diversity that we need, and call it out rather than shun it and put it aside, knowing that we need that diversity because we know we're in groupthink world. Whenever we have more and more of these type threes congregating together, or seven kinds of getting together. And we just need to integrate these other perspectives as well, rather than close them off and shut them down and not allow them to speak and not allow them to have a voice. And we have all nine types within us.
Andi Simon: I often use theater as a metaphor. This woman in Manhattan has a company called Performance of a Lifetime. And she's an ex-theatre person. And I've used her for public speaking training and all kinds of stuff. But usually, if you think of life as theater, and then the question is, what are the roles that you're playing when the context will influence what part of you.
I mean, if Robert Redford can play Out of Africa and The Way We Were, so can you play multiple roles. You can be cast in one by others or you can begin to cast yourself in a way for now that you can lead or you can follow or you can be an adventurer, and you can reframe yourself and the story you have based on the context. And you know that you understand that, like, theater. We do have to wrap up because I'm watching our time and our listeners are very, very engaged for about a half hour. And we're just about at that point; a couple of things you don't want them to forget.
Karl Hebenstreit: I don't want listeners to forget that it's really about the readiness of the person or the organization to which instrument you use. In some cases, the Enneagram is not the be-all and end-all for everything. Myers-Briggs is not the be-all and end-all for everything. Hogan is not the be-all and end-all, Leadership Circle is not. It's whatever the organization or person is ready for, to get that information about the feedback, to understand themselves better if they're not at that point of self awareness yet. So I think readiness is critical.
The other thing is the platinum rule, which we didn't discuss. A lot of times people get hung up on the golden rule, which is to treat others the way that you want to be treated, which is not true and it's not diverse, inclusive, it's not.
The platinum rule is a far better rule for people to help understand how other people want to be treated. So treat people the way they want to be treated, which then helps us use any of these other instruments that we mentioned. But the Enneagram really tends to be the best one in that realm because it helps us understand where they're coming from, what their drivers are, their motivations, and what's how they want to be treated.
Andi Simon: Well, you have to listen and listen without pushing it through your mind map so that you can really hear what they are saying and what they're all about.
Karl Hebenstreit: You're absolutely right to interpret it through your lens. And we need to be more curious and not jump to conclusions about that, and hear their story and build that relationship with them to really know where they're coming from.
And the third one is that we are all diverse inside of us. We have those nine diverse perspectives and ways of looking at the world. And we should not just stick to the one that is our core. We need to integrate all nine types, all the eight other styles that are lesser used, and are less accessible. So integrate all those and then we'll have a much better idea of what's going on in every single situation.
Andi Simon: Now I have a hunch you have really elaborated on this in your book, right? Talk a moment about the name of the book and where they can find the book.
Karl Hebenstreit: Yeah. So the book is called The How and Why: Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram. And it's in the second edition right now, the second edition got published during the pandemic when I had some time to really add more stuff to the first edition and make it even more robust and add more new learnings and more new exercises and models. So that is available to help people to basically use the Enneagram for any organizational development, organization development intervention that they have, or any organizational situation or challenge that they're put in. So that's available on Amazon.
You can also check out more about it on my website, which is www.performandfunction.com. There's also another book intended for all audiences, especially people that may not even know the Enneagram in advance, not that you need to know the Enneagram in advance for the business book either.
But this is intended to help people learn about the Enneagram at a much younger age so it makes their life easier so they can understand the importance of the diverse perspectives that lie within us and that we can really integrate. It's called Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision. So they take one of the chapters in the business book and really reinterpret it through the lens of a child learning about all the different perspectives that her different friends have, and so how can she greet them whenever she needs to make a difficult decision.
Andi Simon: You know, you're tickling my curiosity about whether I should take Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, my second book, and begin to rewrite it for a teen book. And it's an audience. But I'm not quite sure that teens can't read the book already. It's sort of like, Who do I want to be, and how. So it's a really interesting time. This has been such fun, if they want to reach you, your website is where they should go?
Karl Hebenstreit: Performandfunction.com has all my contact information as well. LinkedIn, of course: Karl Hebenstreit.
Andi Simon: I think that the listeners are probably listening to us talk about nine different types, and kinds of things that are difficult to talk about in a half hour. So I would urge you to Google Enneagram, and then get into Karl's book because it offers you a way to see, feel and think about the world and yourself through a fresh lens.
That's my job to get you off the brink. I want you to soar again, to change. And sometimes the mirror isn't going back to what you need to know, to see the world the way it's developing. And I know in particular, people managing in a hybrid world really need to understand what people are going through as they are reassessing themselves, understanding how to get things done differently, and changes are unsettling your mind. You're amygdala gets hijacked and hates change and wants to go back to the familiar and you can't go back. The world that was, I'm not sure it's coming back that fast. Might be a little bit of time. But it's been great fun. Thank you for joining me today.
Karl Hebenstreit: Thank you, Andi. This has been awesome.
Andi Simon: It is! For those of you who come, I can only tell you, thank you. You can pick up my books at Amazon and Barnes and Noble and, you know, Google them. They are selling really, really well. And I have colleges and universities still using On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights , and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is helping women see themselves through a fresh lens so they know that they should not accept limits.
And McKinsey's writing about the great breakup, and then women leaving the workforce, it's time maybe for women to understand themselves better, and help the organization understand why those women are so important to them. But you can reach me at info@andisimon.com and learn more about us there and about our programs. And Simonassociates.net is our website. It’s brand new and ready for you to explore and learn all about what we do to help people see, feel and think. Goodbye Karl. Have a great day everybody who came, thank you for joining us. Have a wonderful day, bye bye now.
Learn how you, yes you, can become an awesome communicator!
In July of 2020 I had the pleasure of interviewing the very delightful Monique Russell, a leading executive communications coach who will share with you how to clearly communicate what you want to say in an effective way. I loved our conversation and learned so much from Monique that I had to share her wisdon with you again. Do you find yourself full of great ideas but struggle to tell others about them? Do you become self-conscious whenever you make a presentation? Monique has a great perspective on how to conquer all of these and succeed! Listen and share.
Watch my interview with Monique here:
A communications roadblock is also an opportunity
As Monique tells us, “Right now, you may have achieved great success in gaining recognition for your good ideas and expertise, but you haven’t connected in a way in which others recognize the full value and quality of your leadership. It’s hard to connect, and others don’t seem to understand or buy into the full vision of where you see the team heading.” The opportunity? A time to learn new skills and polish your emerging style.
About Monique Russell
Originally from The Bahamas and Nigeria, Monique is the communications expert you want on your team. Founder of Clear Communication Solutions, an international training, coaching and consulting firm that teaches effective communications and leadership skills, she is passionate about teaching women leaders and teams how to turn "likes" into "loves" in their businesses and in their lives. Major organizations such as Centers for Disease Control, Verizon, Intel, Equifax and the world’s busiest airport, Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport, trust Monique to teach effective communication strategies that foster connection, community, creativity and courage. You can too! You can contact Monique here.
Would you like to communicate more effectively? Learn from these:
- Blog: How To Be A Highly Effective Leader During Turbulent Times: The Five Things You Need To Know
- Podcast: Lisa Perrine—Clever, Creative Ways To Enhance And Amplify Workplace
- Podcast: Nadia Bilchik—How To Master Communication In A Virtual World
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon, your host. And as you know, my job is to find people who can help you see, feel and think in new ways. I really want to help you get off the brink and soar. And these are very fast changing times: the pandemic, and the recession, the economic disruption, have really created all kinds of new ways of working and living. And so today, I wanted to find somebody who can help you think about communication. What is communication anyhow? You know, out of context, what do those words mean? Do your emails really get the response you're looking for?
I was listening to somebody, not that long ago, who was telling me that everybody is making up all kinds of decisions as they work remotely and they're not talking to each other the way they might have if they were in the same office together. But they're feeling quite independent and empowered. Is that good or bad? How do we communicate? So today, on LinkedIn, Monique Russell came asking to link and so we linked and then we probed a little more. And Monique is a marvelous expert in communications. So let me tell you about her and then she'll tell you about herself because I do think you get a better picture from people's own words about their journey.
So Monique is originally from the Bahamas and Nigeria. She is a communications expert whom people say you want on your team, and this is really a chance for personal leadership. She's passionate about teaching women, leaders, and teams how to turn likes into loves. So you can see why we have so much in common, both in our business and in our personal lives. Remember, our lives are nothing but conversations. They're all about communicating. So what words we use matter, how we do it matters.
Monique has helped companies like the CDC, Verizon, Intel, Equifax, large companies globally. They trust her to teach effective communication strategies. And I love her four C's: connection, community, creativity, and courage. So today, I hope you're going to find that you are fostering communication, connection, creativity, and courage. Because these are not simple times. It's not more of the same. Let's do it better. These are different times. How do we change?
And since I love to help you change, Monique, thank you for joining me today. It's such a pleasure to see you. Tell the listeners about yourself. Who's Monique? What's your journey all about? And how did you become the woman you are today?
Monique Russell: Thank you so much, Andi. I'm just delighted to be here and speaking with you. So I am from the original beautiful Bahamas and Nigeria. That's where I grew up. I grew up in the islands. I lived with my mom and my brothers and my stepdad. And my mom was a high school teacher. And so she's been an educator for all her life. So you can imagine just the influence and the impact that I had growing up, having a love for learning, having a love for reading and just watching her take personal development messages, audios, as she was developing herself. I kind of got caught onto some of it. She never said, Monique sit down, we're gonna listen to this. But I happened to have exposure to seeing her do it and some seeds were planted.
So I left the warm islands and I went to Minnesota, which was very, very cold. We had a family tradition where the guys would go to St. John's, the girls would go to St. Ben's, and that's where I started, at St. Ben's, before I moved to St. Cloud. And I studied the whole science of communications. My goal was to get on TV to be a broadcast journalist covering stories all over the world. I studied marketing, PR, and advertising, which ended up being my graduate degrees. So I left with three degrees in the science of communications. And then I was off. I was off to conquer the world.
Andi Simon: Which really was who you were. It wasn't a job to do, or a career to develop. I'm hearing someone who had an understanding of who she was and what she could contribute to the world. This is really exciting. Please continue.
Monique Russell: Let me tell you how exciting it was. I knew from the moment I was three years old having class with my dolls that I was born to teach. And I started actually speaking officially in front of people at the age of eight, so when I left, I had every bit of confidence you could possibly imagine. I had enough for me, for you, and your entire family. But let me tell you, after I graduated, I applied for jobs left, right and center. And I didn't find the job that I wanted in my field. I couldn't find a job in journalism. I didn't find a job in PR and advertising.
It was like a Catch-22. They're looking for experience, but you have the degree, and so when you did find something in the broadcast field, there was no way that I would be able to take care of myself and my family at the time. I had already had a son. So I started as an executive support. Still, with all the confidence and the bubbly excitement that I had, it wasn't my plan. It was not where I wanted to be. And I contributed and I showed up the way I knew how, and I won awards. I got recognized because nobody considered me to be a threat in the executive support role. So I got a peek behind how things worked, which leaders stood out, which ones were frustrated. What made them tick and what brought the team together.
And because I was already nosy, curious about everything, as the investigative journalists, I always wanted to know what was going on. And they would come to me to ask me questions because of my personality, how to handle certain things with employees, how to handle certain things with their peers. I was all in the mix. But I will say this, after a while, I moved to Atlanta, and I came across a group called WATTS: Women Aspiring Together to Succeed. I did not know that I had lost my confidence during this time. I didn't know because I was successful. I was accomplishing things and I was being recognized. I had my family. My kids were thriving, and things were okay.
So I thought, but there's something that happened. And when I started freelancing, when I moved to Atlanta, I had a situation where my business partner and I were working on this project. And that project, just, you know, it was going well, it was going great. And then one day we had a call. And on that call, the client called us and I thought they were going to just go ahead and you know, renew, because I knew I was doing a great job. And I got on that call. And I'm like, you know, hello, this is Monique, Mrs. Bubbly personality. But on that call, something happened. What happened was, they started to ask questions about billing.
I was working with my business partner. He was the contractor above me. And he had a contractor above him. So I was two levels in and didn't have correct direct billing with the client. But I did lead meetings, I did do the research, I did provide the value. And so I thought, this was just fantastic. But on that call, they started asking things like, Alright, we're two years in, we understand why the bill was much higher on the front end, you have to do this work, you have to do whatever you had to do. But now we're almost two years in and we don't understand what the people are doing with Monique on this project, the other two people that are working.
And Andi, I promise you, I just didn't know what to do. Because at that time, you think you're getting on a call for one thing and then it just hoodwinked you. And so I was like, Okay, what two people are they talking about? And before I realized what was happening, the prime contractor added two additional people that were working with me that did not exist. Oh, gosh. I said nothing.
Andi Simon: Or your credibility was gone.
Monique Russell: I said absolutely nothing. I said nothing. I was frozen. I was frozen in that moment. And I said, Wait a minute. I mean, why did I not speak up? I literally sat in my car. I think I must have sat there for 30 or 45 minutes after just replaying what happened. I should have said this, but if I said that, they might have taken everything back for two years. I might have to pay everything. All sorts of things went through my mind.
But I will say it was the catalyst for me to really open up and say, Okay, where in my life am I not speaking up, what else is going on? And that led to a deep investigation. And I realized that I had lost my confidence. I wasn't feeling fulfilled. I was getting recognized, but it wasn't where I was feeling that I was truly in my zone in my sphere of influence. Because yes, I was doing communications but that was on the marketing side, which I don't do anymore. I wasn't interested in that.
So that's kind of my journey, but where I am today through that exposure with the women doing my vision board. And it's so funny because I always set goals. But I had this new way of setting goals, which was a vision board. And I put these things on my vision board. And I'm going to tell you, yesterday, I was going through so many of not only my boards, but you know, ones from 2015, from 2017. And I looked at it, and I was like, the things that I've put on, there's probably about two things on there. But when I look at it, even down to the detail of what I would be creating, and who I would be serving, and where I would be speaking, and what I would be doing, right where I would travel, I've already traveled to those places.
So this thing works. Some of them didn't happen in the exact way that I envisioned. But it did happen. So that was a catalyst for me. And then I started investing more in coaching. And then it just really strengthened me in my strength and gift area. So I wasn't speaking at that time. But that's what pushed me back to my gifts. It pushed me back to that little girl who was teaching early in her make-believe classroom. So that's a part of my story.
Andi Simon: But it's so important because you had an aha moment. You had an epiphany. And I could feel your brain trying to figure it out because I could hear that as well. But then once you figured it out, you knew you never wanted it to be there again. But who were you? And then what? What value can you offer others? But what point is it if we don't help others do something better, as a result of what we can begin to offer them.
So now that your story is perfect, because it sets the stage for all people who are listening and watching who are also looking at all the changes going on now, trying to think through them, what is the epiphany here? How am I being transformed? What will this mean in terms of the conversations I have, or the communication I have? So as you're looking at both your own journey, let's start with some of the insights that you can share, but also what you might like our listeners to begin to do or change.
Monique Russell: I think we are thrust into change and transformation by either vision, what we see as possible for us, which was part of my journey, but I also had the pain of writing. Or the pain, which is, where we are right now? Because it's an uncomfortable situation. And I love the way you framed it up in terms of, you know, what would it look like? What would it look like at the end of 2020? What will you say? What will be your story about what 2020 meant for you and how you transformed from the inside out?
I think right now we are in a space, communication-wise, where people are more receptive to deeper levels of conversation. They're more open to having heart to heart conversation, heart to heart connection. It's still kind of scary because everyone is pretty much on this same cataclysmic, seismic shift. It's like, I'm not going to stand out and look crazy.
Andi Simon: I want to connect here because it's important. We do a lot of visualization with our clients. As you're discussing, you had to do your storyboards. And I often do them. I'm doing a program, a leadership development for a long-standing client, and I'm starting with your visualization: What are you going to look like? But, you know, today we share this common transformation going on. So it doesn't seem so crazy to come up with some cool ideas.
Maybe it's a good time to rethink who you are and where you're going. But you know your thoughts, so how do I do that? It's really interesting listening to you, because I can already visualize that 2020 is tomorrow.
Monique Russell: How do you begin to do that if you use your physiology and you combine that vision. You combine the goal or the idea of who you want to become, because that's going to pull you stronger. When things come up, when the crap hits the fan, that desire is going to pull you even further towards that vision. So using your physiology, and what I mean is, the power of your breath. Getting yourself into that very calm state because we have to think about, what level do you want to create at? Everything's energy. So do I want to create from a place of fear? Oh, I gotta find some clients. I don't know what I'm gonna do.
What you create in that state isn't really going to be lasting, but if you create something in a state where you are inspired, and you're driven, and you could actually feel it in your body, like you literally could feel it in your skin, it's already going to activate the next step. So the visioning part is essential. But vision is nothing without action. So you have to take the steps to put in the action.
Based on my ideal vision of myself, my higher vision of myself, how will I get there? Who do I need to be in my corner to help me get there? What do I need to be exposed to? What do I need to read? Who do I need to model? What do I need to watch? How can I break stuff? How can I break stuff, come up with stuff, just come out and put it out there? Just try not to limit yourself from any idea because right now everything's up for grabs.
So many people felt like online and remote working was going to be something that would be difficult. Well, if this does not accelerate, remote working is here to stay. I don't know what to say. So just know that everything is up for grabs. Begin with your vision, take your vision and put it into actionable steps. Find someone who can help you make sure that you are on track with what you say you want to do. That's the piece.
A lot of times, we come up with a goal. So get into a community of people who can feed your infectious desire. Get into a community with someone who can hold you accountable, if that's what you need, but not in a place where anybody's coming behind you to whip you into saying, You got to do this, because that's not how I work in my practice. It's inspiring...maybe if you didn't complete a task, let's explore what's going on. Let's explore what's really going on here. But someone has to hold a space for you to go ahead and achieve what you want and celebrate you for doing that.
Andi Simon: You know, I often use a metaphor, since we help companies and people in those companies change: your points are extremely important. And of course, emphasizing because ideas are important, the more ideas you have, the more likely you'll have big ones, you just don't know which ones they are. So let them all come together. Let that shower time when the brain is sorting them out, but ideas by themselves aren't going to get you someplace. To your point, once I visualize it, that won't either. We often backward plan it, but I love small wins. And I love to begin to concretize that abstraction into action, and actually doing more.
We talked about turning observations into innovations. And then how do you actually convert it. But the metaphor I use is theater, and I say to people, if you all knew how to play Macbeth really well, you would keep playing it. But now you can't play it anymore. There's no more applause. Nobody's buying your products. You know, there's nobody who's hired you anymore.
All of the things you did so well, you're not able to do anymore. So we're gonna play Hamlet instead. But you don't have a script. You haven't written the script, you haven't rehearsed it. You have no director to help you on stage, you have no colleagues who are going to play with you or perform. So how are we going to put this play on, and it's not improvisation because even that's well-rehearsed.
But the metaphor takes it away from "I can't do that" to "Oh, that's how we do that." I said, Robert Redford can play different roles, or Vanessa Redgrave can play different roles. So can you and now it's your turn to make up the new one, or two or three, because you don't know which ones are going to feel the best. But you've got an opportunity to be a creative person. And you're gonna have others who, like you, are trying to figure it out. So help each other.
So as you're talking about this, how does communication change in some fashion? Because we started the conversation about communication. And I don't want us to leave without helping them change their voice, their tone, what they expect from emails and face to face. There's something very human, and how we talk to each other. That helps us to your point: I want people to support me, to help me get to where I'm going when the conversations change. Let's concretize it a little bit because I think the abstraction will leave them saying, "That's a good idea. How do I do that?" So how do we do that?
Monique Russell: Absolutely. So making sure when you're communicating, even in a remote space, you want to make sure that your message is clear. I don't care how you deliver it, if it's text, if it's voice, if it's email, if the message is unclear, that message is going to be lost. And so the first thing is making sure that you understand what it is that you want to communicate. That I really cannot emphasize that enough. How do you do that? You can ask yourself, write yourself a question, what do I want? That's as simple as it gets written.
Do I want my manager to give me time off, help me run this meeting. the meeting to end at 12:55 instead of 1:257, whatever it is, what do I want? What's the outcome of my message? What's the outcome of this contact? What am I trying to do with this person? And once you get clear about what you want, then you could start to put it into action. Right now we are bombarded with so much information that your message has to be concise. Don't do the five paragraphs, nobody's reading it, nobody's reading it. They're scanning.
Go ahead and make sure that your message and your communication, if it's an email, is in visual form, bullets, underlining essentials, because people will scan towards those things, if they are important. I had a client work with me and she had a whole lot of information in her presentation. And that was an issue that came up because the people who needed to actually make the decision, they completely missed this major issue. And when I dive down deeper, I said, Well, where was the issue? It was in the presentation, it was in the presentation, it was on the screen, no one could miss it.
Well, she didn't call attention to it. It wasn't highlighted anywhere. People are not going to zone in to what you want them to zone in on and you have to call attention to it. When you're driving on the road, you see people with big signs, and they're doing the dancing. As big as those things are, they want to get your attention. So you can see what they're trying to say at a moment's notice. Same thing with the billboards.
So in your email communication, you want to make sure that you're clear, and that you're concise. If there's anything that needs special attention, you want to say, I want to call your attention to this, let's focus on that. Make sure that the key things that you need solutions and answers for, you create space for that type of communication. Those are tips you can do right now.
Andi Simon: Well, emails are often difficult to read because you don't know the feeling that went through them. We have a bunch of folks who are on our staff, and sometimes they get irritated if I send something back without the implicit meaning. And they react to it without it being totally out of context. So what they heard wasn't what I meant or said or felt, but they were reading it from where they were and how it felt to them.
And it was interesting over the years to begin to realize that it's not what you say, it's how you say it, and you can't do it in words in an email. So it opens it up for all kinds of other stuff. Even texting is sometimes easier. And putting your picture part is really important. Draw a picture.
Monique Russell: Yeah, definitely, definitely. And you're right. And the other thing, too, is that's why the clarity is so important because sometimes we send a message and we think that it's clear, but it's not. And then you have to ask, well, what did you mean by that, and then there's a lot of processing, out loud processing of this and that, or whatever.
I have worked remotely for most of my career. So I've dealt with emails with many different sets of people. And to be honest, if you take the time up front, I know you feel like, I just gotta get this out, I gotta get this out, you're going to spend time one way or the other. If you send out your information without taking that time upfront to really get your message clear, you're going to spend time in confusion. You're going to spend time going back and forth. That's not what I meant. That's what I said. Oh, you didn't get it. The back and forth, one email will turn into 15 because nobody wants to pick up the phone.
So you know, if you spend the time upfront, spending that time to get the message clear, your chances of it being received well will increase. Another thing is to also learn about communication styles. In my practice, I use some assessments to help people have an awareness of how people receive information. So If you understand how someone receives information, chances are you can build that rapport and you can have a better chance of making sure that the message is received. Communication is two ways. It's not just one way. So making sure that your message is received by understanding the different communication styles and personality styles is very, very helpful.
Andi Simon: I had one client who wanted to give everybody a color code on their wall, that people when they walked in knew what kind of disc or personality they were, which ones needed a lot of data, slow processors, which ones were jokers. Which ones had different archetypes. In some ways, the intent was to simplify it and improve communication; on the other hand, it had added another dimension to figuring out who that person was and what it was that they were looking for. But the intent is correct.
How do we improve messaging, and meaning, and how do we hear each other because humans are herd animals. We live in groups. And we share a common culture with values, beliefs, stories to share. We mimic each other, our bonding is essential. And now we're all remote. Although you're in Atlanta, and I'm in New York, I feel like you're my next door neighbor. And so we go back to the things that humans need to be in good communication, but also to bond and to feel like they can trust the person on the other side to do the right thing.
But quite frankly, I think technology is making it so much easier. You know, I don't have to write a letter and wait a year for it to arrive. And I can do my diary every night and I can read it because it's tight. But it's a really important thing to be aware of, that communication requires multiple senses. How in this remote world that we're in now, do eyes and face and body communication take place, this is important.
Monique Russell: It is extremely important. When you're watching someone or you're connecting with someone on the screen, I do feel like, especially with all the Zoom video conferencing, it actually heightens our state too, because now we're paying attention to so many different things.
You might be looking at your own face, you might be thinking about all sorts of stuff. So things that you can do is perhaps not have your image on where you're getting distracted. Anything that will take you away from being present. Try to minimize that. If you don't have to use video, use audio because, you know, sometimes it might get distracting. But if you are using your video, be present, don't be working on something else. Don't be trying to go on your cell phone because that also communicates non-verbally that I'm really focused on not really paying attention.
Your chances of missing the message increases like, so what did you say? You know, you just totally missed it. So now you have to be even more intentional about how you show up using video. Your self-care regimen is crucial. When you are tired, you just want to get that message out. You don't have time to think about how you're responding. You want to just get that message going. And when I'm tired, and they listen, I try not to be dealing with meetings and emails, so rejuvenating and hydrating. I know these things are things people have heard before. I always talk about the HALT.
Andi Simon: Me too! Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired. You see, people don't realize that it's not the brain that's engaged. It's the heart. It's the eyes. It's how it feels. It's how you feel. So you're a whole person. I preach it all the time. Because we can't control the emotions, because that's what's going to be communicating. But you know, you're saying something I want to emphasize. It's extremely important. I almost like the idea that we can hold virtual meetings like this.
I've been doing virtual presentations, workshops for 30 people in the room. And it's going to help them actually get something out of it. Because there's no wandering that isn't visible. And since you're recording it, everybody's faces are there. It's very interesting that you might actually have better experiences with better communication going on. If you begin to turn lemons into lemonade, or limes into margaritas, as somebody said to me, but it's a time where you can use this to your advantage.
Because if people are wandering, whoever that business leader is who organized this can actually see them doing that. And now you can begin to have to explain a little bit about your lack of engagement, or the inability of us to engage you. But I've been watching the meetings and they are really, really involved. But part of me as a workshop or speaker, is to keep them involved. And you can see it, it's not even, they're not in a big room with 100 people, and you can't see anybody.
So every one of them becomes a personal conversation you're having, even when there are 30 of them. It requires a very deep commitment to employ engagement tools, and communicating effectively, like you're doing. Now, we're getting close to wrapping up time. Monique, this has been such a pleasure. Give the listeners one, two or three things you don't want them to forget. They often remember the ending better than the beginning. And as much as I enjoyed your own story, I will not forget that aha moment. But I also don't think I can create an aha moment for them. But what can we leave them with?
Monique Russell: Well, I will say, invest in your public speaking skills. That will put you in line with trends and where we're headed; it will never ever go out of style. So if you don't remember anything at all, invest in public speaking. It's not just about getting on big stages. It's really about what we're doing right here. So public speaking will help you to refine your message, learn how to respond to questions, and learn how to engage your audience. You are the facilitator. You're a speaker, even if you don't think that you are. That's what I will say: invest in your public speaking skills and definitely know that you can rewrite your own story.
Andi Simon: I was hoping you were gonna say that, I could feel it coming because at the end of the day, you live your story. You think there's a reality, but there's only a perception of one; we are creating stories. And once it's in your brain, it really deletes everything that doesn't fit the story, but everything that used to affirm that might not be operating right now.
And so now, you need a new story. It's not that hard to create one; visualize it, put it on a piece of paper, put it up on your mirror, look at it, it will do something to your brain. Stories change your brain. And the research is very compelling. And so all of a sudden, you begin to see a new you and then you begin to live it, so every time you add a new chapter in that little movie set. Put a little picture up there as a post that celebrates the accomplishment. How can they reach you if they'd like to know more about Monique Russell and how you can help them?
Monique Russell: Oh, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. This is where you and I met. Monique Russell Clear Communication coach or my website, clearcommunicationsolutions.com. I'm on the internet as Clear Communication Coach. So if you drop that into Google with my name, it will come up and you can find me anywhere on the internet: Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube.
Andi Simon: Yes. And I love your videos. They are very instructional in short bites as sound bites, but they are terrific. Terrific to watch. And it's been a pleasure to get to know you. Thank you so much for joining us. For all of our listeners, the number of people who send us emails, just amazing. I can't thank you enough from across the globe. And we are, I don't know, over 130,000 monthly listeners downloading.
Remember our job is to help you get off the brink. So the podcasts On the Brink with Andi Simon are intentional to help you change how you see, feel and think in new ways. How do you get a picture through a new lens? This is important because that's how you make decisions; it's what you see and how it feels, so it's not inconsequential.
I hope you've enjoyed our talk today with Monique Russell. It's truly been my pleasure to share her with you. And keep those emails coming, at info@Andisimon.com. My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights are both on Amazon so check them out. Have a great day. Please stay safe, stay healthy. Stay well. Smile!
Hear how games can make your employees' effectiveness soar!
Several years ago, Andy (my husband and business partner) and I went to Brussels to train in Innovation Games. IG is a wonderful set of creative tools to help people see things in new ways by playing games. In fact, IG downloads are the most frequent downloads from our website, www.simonassociates.net. Here at SAMC, we integrate IG into many of our workshops and leadership programs. Take a look at some of our IG white papers and PowerPoints which might open up your mind to what gamification can offer you, your team members and your customers as you rethink your organization to face the challenges of these fast-changing times.
Today's podcast is with gamification strategist Naomi Redel
I was thrilled to recently meet Naomi Redel to discuss how she has become a gamification strategist with her own methods for increasing the effectiveness of organizations through what she calls “Collaborative Emotional Intelligence.”
Our podcast was global. Naomi was in Israel, and I was in New York. We had a wonderful discussion about people, the power of games, and the type of work she does with organizations that need to boost their people power.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some background on Naomi and what she has created
After years of working as an innovation and marketing consultant with leading Israeli companies, Naomi felt firsthand the frustration of watching brilliant strategies flounder in C-suite silos, unable to trickle down and make an impact, because of lack of time, motivation, and the right tools to institutionalize them.
So what did she do? Create a multilayered system that uses collaborative emotional experiences with cutting-edge technologies and gamification to push the boundaries of implementation and embed those strategies into people's hearts and minds. She then followed this with the creation of the first-ever board game in positive psychology, Positive Turn, which is recommended by the VIA Institute of Character Strengths and used as an innovation for companies in France.
She also co-founded HappierMe and led the design and development of the HappierMe platform, a system of minigames and exercises designed to make the practice of happiness easy and accessible anywhere and anytime.
Naomi earned her Master's in Business Administration and Economics (with distinction) and graduated Cum Laude BA in Economics (with distinction) from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. You can contact Naomi on LinkedIn or by email at naomi.redel@gmail.com.
Special offer from Naomi for you, our audience
Available only to On the Brink listeners: a free presentation about collaborative emotional intelligence at work. To receive this game-changing power point, simply DM Naomi (or email her at naomi.redel@gmail.com) and say “I am an On the Brink Listener.” Enjoy.
Want to know more about what Innovation Games can do for your company?
- Blog: Innovation Games: The Bridge To New, Previously Undiscovered Ideas And Innovations
- Blog: Why Are Innovation Games In Such Demand?
- Podcast: Andy and Andi Simon—Innovation Games® Are What You Need To Imagine Your Future
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Hear how to build workplaces where everyone is valued
This podcast interview is exceptional. Just listen to Maria Colacurcio tell you about her journey and think about your own. Her career has spanned many different industries, propelling her to leadership positions in innovative companies. Our conversation took us through those profound experiences and unexpected moments that can transform our lives in new ways. Others often accelerated her career, seeing her talent and advocating for her. She speaks about learning on the job and being excited when new career opportunities opened up for her. She also provides wisdom to other women and men trying to build more diverse, equitable and inclusive organizations, and how women are changing our society, a step and then a leap at a time. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Maria's mantra: "When preparation meets opportunity"
Today, Maria is CEO of Syndio, a SAS startup helping companies worldwide create an equitable workplace for all employees, regardless of gender, race or ethnicity. Before Syndio, she co-founded Smartsheet.com, which went public in 2018. She then spent three years at Starbucks, one of the first Fortune 50 companies to go public with pay equity results. As a CEO, she is walking the walk on eradicating workplace inequities, serving on the board of the nonprofit Fair Pay Workplace and having been named one of the 100 most exceptional entrepreneurs by Goldman Sachs Builders + Innovators Summit for two consecutive years.
While her professional career has been exceptional, I was particularly impressed with how Maria wove into our conversation that she is the mother of seven children, gets up before 5am, works for an hour, and then works out. After listening to our interview, let us know how you are growing in your own personal and professional life and who is helping you along the way: Info@simonassociates.net. To connect with Maria, you can find her on LinkedIn and Twitter.
Is DEI really possible in today's woprkplaces? Yes! Check out these 3 podcasts
- Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let’s Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen
- Rohini Anand—Can Businesses Create Cultures Based On True Diversity, Equity and Inclusion?
- Kim Graham Lee—How To Build A Culture Where Men And Women Truly Support Each Other
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And as we come together for all of our podcasts, I want to celebrate my audience because we're in the top 5% of global podcasts. And I thank you for your support for sharing and collaborating with us on great ideas. My job is to help you do something that's very painful: to see, feel and think in new ways so that you can soar. And I love to bring you my guests because they're going to give you some insights about their own journey, and about how you can get some key takeaways on how you can build your own career, your business or wherever you're doing.
So today, I have Maria Colacurcio. And Maria is smiling at me because I'm so delighted to have her here. We're in the process of writing our next book, Women Mean Business. Maria has a whole chapter in it. And in sharing her wisdom, I was just absolutely impressed with who this woman is, what she has done and why she's a wonderful person for you to know more about.
Let me tell you about her bio. She's passionate about helping companies build equitable workplaces, where every worker is valued for who they are and their contributions that sort of sets the stage for what she's doing today. And she'll tell you more about it. And Maria is CEO of Syndio, a growth startup, it's really on its way. She helps companies around the world create equitable workplaces, for all employees, regardless of gender, race, or ethnicity.
My clients tell me how difficult it is to know whether or not they're paid the same salaries for the same job depending on who the people are, and whether or not they're really doing it intentionally or by chance. Well, give the data to Syndio and next thing you know, you have a really good database, and you know what's going on. Prior to Syndio, Maria co-founded smartsheet.com and went public in 2018. She spent three years at Starbucks. But she started her career working on congressional campaigns and has a long history of mission-driven work, and a compassionate and competitive attitude to spur change. She's smiling. Sometimes when you hear yourself coming back and you go, oh, who is that? And is that really me?
She serves on the board of the nonprofit Fair Pay Workplace, and has been named one of the 100 most exceptional entrepreneurs by Goldman Sachs' Builders and Innovators Summit for two consecutive years. She went to Whitworth University where she studied history, political science, and minored in music and studied vocal opera. Isn't that a beautiful Renaissance woman we have? Maria, thank you for joining me today. I truly appreciate it. Now, your turn to tell the audience who is Maria, what's your journey been like? I can read a bio, but you make it come alive. And it's so rich. Please, who's Maria?
Maria Colacurcio: Yeah, thank you so much for having me today. It's just a delight to be here. And I've had such a great time collaborating with you on the book. And I'm so looking forward to seeing the 99 other women who are profiled in that. So I am sort of, as you stated, I think I have a very nonlinear path in many, many ways in my life and career. And I think it all culminates in this idea and experience around how do you think about a growth mindset as it actually unfolds in front of you? And for me, when I think about being a history major, going to a very liberal arts-oriented college, being a first generation college grad.
I grew up in a very strong Italian American family. My dad and my Italian uncles all served in different branches of the military, none had ever gone to college. So it was really important to my parents that the four of us kids go get an education. And they made that very, very clear to us. So I think being a first gen college grad, it sets you up for your career in a way that you don't even really know what to expect because you haven't had a model to follow in terms of looking at a parental set that sort of did college and then did their entry level internship. You don't really know what to do.
So I think as I sort of took the twists and turns of a very nonlinear path, one of the things that it really made clear to me is, I want to be that mentor for other folks that may not have a model to follow in terms of what are the right moves to make. How do you look at a door that may open just a crack and have the courage and confidence to kick it open and go pursue something that might not be the exact sort of choice that most people would make in that situation? So I think to sum it up, non-traditional start in terms of where I ended up as the CEO of a SAS software company. But I also think that's exactly what women need. Women need to have role models who have come from different and diverse backgrounds and are forging ahead and not necessarily looking like CEOs typically look. And so that's something I'm really, really passionate about.
Andi Simon: As I'm listening to you, I'm smiling as you're smiling because the absence of role models. So I had a program at Washington University to help women entrepreneurs, and they all said, We need some role models. If you can't see it, you can't be it. And you somehow managed to move your way through things trusting in yourself, not necessarily with a mentor. Were there others who were giving you guidance, or there's some interesting stories you might share about how you began to migrate through? You had different career points, not all leading to something, but all leading somewhere? It was very interesting listening to your bio.
Maria Colacurcio: Thank you. I think I owe a lot to other folks, other people who were generous with their time and their experience. And one of the reasons that I am so active in the words that I choose when I talk about our accomplices. So some people use the word allies, but in my career, in my life, the folks that have been in the ring with me fighting for things like equality for folks in the workplace, whether it's gender, race, ethnicity, looking across intersections, the folks that have been in the ring with me, they're accomplices, they're in the fight, back-to-back, holding swords, forging our way ahead.
And I certainly personally had that experience. I had a lot of white men in power, who made it a point, for whatever reason, typically a personal case, whether it was something they had experienced or seen a loved one experience, where they had decided they were going to be an accomplice in this fight. And because of that, they took it upon themselves to really put the time in. I had several folks at Starbucks who really mentored me and helped me understand a couple of new areas around pay equity, what was the legislation, what was the process with external counsel, what was the math, all of these things that are the underpinnings to what I do today that I would have had no idea had they not taken the time.
And the second example, I think, was when I was hired at Syndio, the CEO, I was hired by people who took a chance on me. I had never been a CEO. I had co-founded a startup that was very successful, but I co-founded it from the seat of marketing and communications. I never led anything as that person in the seat of CEO. So they had to take a chance. They had to say, "We're going to take a chance on this person. And if she doesn't have everything we need, we're going to figure out how to support her."
Now, the flip side of that is, I have so much privilege because I'm a white woman. And so if you think about the leg up that I had, it's now incumbent upon me to make sure I'm taking that privilege and bestowing it and helping others make sure that they have those growth opportunities that I had.
Andi Simon: I love your story, because you're right, we have an obligation to lift up and to share. But also there is to your point, there's no straight line. And it's not as if there's a ladder we're climbing. We're sort of exploring, and people see something and pluck us up and put us into roles. You know, this imposter syndrome stuff is so interesting. I've always been an imposter. You know, I was SVP of one bank, and EVP of another bank. They all thought I knew more than I knew. I never knew what I didn't know. But in fact, it was okay, we were bold and courageous. And there were always accomplices who wanted to help us move somewhere and they weren't afraid or worried either.
As you're doing this, are there some really important lessons that you've learned about how to find the right ones because I had some bad ones along the way. And I never like to share them too often because I want them to go away. But I also know, being an anthropologist, that change is painful. The guys aren't all sitting there saying, "Oh, please come in and take my job. I know you can do a better job than I can do. But why can't I do that job or I don't know, maybe you can't do a better job than me." So the complexity of this means that we need to stand out in some fashion. And as you're helping others move up, they need a great story to tell so that they can pass through this. Your thoughts?
Maria Colacurcio: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think you've got to take chances when you get them because then again, as you're walking down sort of the corridor of your life's experience as it relates to your career specifically, you'll walk by doors that are open just a crack. And I think our natural response, particularly as women, is to say, Well, I have no business trying to peek into that door that's open just a crack, that's for someone else. That's for someone with more experience, better skills, but more confidence.
And I think when you have someone sort of on the other side holding it open for you saying, "Just give it a shot. I've got your back if things go sideways," that's the confidence you need to walk through. And I had that at Starbucks. There was a woman who really took it upon herself to guide me. And I had been in marketing and communications my entire career, and a role opened in finance, working on a team doing enterprise operational planning for the CFO and doing deep finance, work that I had never done before.
I was terrified. I was a history major, I was a writer, I was a marketing and communications person, but this woman said, "You gotta do it and here's why: because you're an entrepreneur and if you want to continue fostering leadership and capabilities that will help you run a fortune 500 company someday, you have to understand GAAP and non GAAP, you have to understand these financial terms" that at the time seemed absolutely terrifying to me. But knowing that I had her there, her name was Carrie, and knowing she had my back, it gave me the confidence I needed to sort of walk through the door. And those are the moments I think that are really turning points in a person's career when they're willing to make that nonlinear pivot because they know they have somebody behind them.
Andi Simon: You know, we tend to think of our own stories as we share this story. So my story begins to come through because I was a tenured anthropology faculty member, and my husband introduced me to Citibank. And they said, Why don't you come and be a consultant? And I said, Sure, why not? And I had no idea whether it could lead somewhere or not. But what was interesting, being a woman, as you're describing it, is that it was okay to take a step in a new direction, without any linearity to it. But once we got going with it, you say, I can do that. And then where does that take you? But you've been in different kinds of companies. Is your journey different with them? You know, somebody saw you and said, Why don't you try this? Or you went public? And so you can move on to something else? You know, how did you move from one stage to the next?
Maria Colacurcio: Yeah, so early in my career when I was in Washington, D.C., working at the Smithsonian, at the National Museum of American History, and then went on to work at a firm that supported nonprofits through nonprofit management, it was as random as meeting a woman. And this is what really happened. I met a woman at a dinner party who said, "You need to be in tech, my company's hiring right now. You would be so great." I was like "Tech? I know nothing about tech. I'm a history major. I've been on congressional campaigns. I work at a history museum."
And she said, "Come interview for my company, we're hiring someone in marketing, your background would be perfect. We need a great communicator, communication skills are a big need right now." She really got it, she really got that concept of skills over experience. So I was like, What the heck sounds interesting. The tech boom was going strong. And so I flew to San Francisco, and I interviewed for this startup company. And it was a really technical startup, it was an Israeli-based startup. All the folks that work there were former Israeli military, because they're all encouraged and actually, they must serve. And so it was quite technical.
But what I realized was, I had this incredible chance. I took the leap, got the job, and moved cross country. And I found that I really loved applying my communication skills to translating these deep technical concepts into things that could help the sales team go out and sell them. And it became this realization for me that's continued, which is, someone might not have the experience, they may not have the matchy matchy experience of 10 years as a B2B professional and enterprise, you know, SAS, sales, marketing, whatever. But they might have the skills to really get it done.
And I think that translates to the work that I've done with veterans moving into the corporate environment from former active duty and applying those skills as operational pieces of expertise. I worked with this incredible woman named Kelly McCoy who was one of the first female colonels in Afghanistan and Iraq. And she taught me so much about this because she was so brilliant. And the way she translated that experience to running operations at Starbucks was incredible.
I think you can extend it to moms who have spent a couple of years out of the workforce caring for young children. What are the skills they're gaining that you can apply back to work? Do they have to go back in their career five, six years? Or can you actually give them credit for some of the things they're doing? And I think that started very early when I realized through experience, that wow, I do have something to offer here. I can make this work.
Andi Simon: Now you have seven children.
Maria Colacurcio: I do!
Andi Simon: And you got funding in the middle of being 8 months pregnant with your seventh. I don't think there's a way here to push past the stereotypes in such a way that our listeners can begin to understand that yes, you can carve for yourself your own personal story that others immediately grab hold of you, and your point about serendipity should not be underestimated. You were at a dinner party, you were talking to someone, you weren't selling yourself, but she pulled from what your story was immediately and said you'd be perfect. And then you get into tech, and you're not quite sure what you're doing, but you have the skills and the comfort to translate the tech into understandable communication.
And then as we move along, and I do think that having seven children, or two or three, teaches us a whole lot about navigating complicated worlds, because nothing is simple at all, the personalities aren't that different than the ones you're going to run in a company. But as you're looking at it, then it leaves you with the sense of, Of course I can. And now it's at Syndio, you're growing something that is so needed in such an innovative way. Are there some key insights from this, this company in particular, because it's intended to do exactly what you want passionately to do, which is create the equality, power and position for women and men so that we don't have this kind of battleground going on.
Maria Colacurcio: Yeah, thank you. Yes, exactly. Syndio is our workplace equity analytics platform. So what we do is, we help Fortune 2000 companies analyze and resolve pay and opportunity gaps that are because of something like gender, race or ethnicity. So we're really looking at how you provide workplace equity. How do you make sure that you're letting data guide the discretion that's inherent to decision-making to get the bias out?
There's so much discretion in decisions of compensation and decisions of promotion. Who gets promoted in decisions around who gets that promotable project. And if you let data guide those decisions so that you have a roadmap, you have guidance in terms of what's the right pay range for this person. They may be a great negotiator, but what's the right pay range for them that looks beyond that to see what do other folks make in this same role that are from different genders, different diverse backgrounds, whether that be race, ethnicity, whatever, but really letting data be your guide to ensure that you're providing workplace equity and that workplace equity is really embedded into how the company does business.
I think what's exciting right now is that the companies that are doing this, and have been doing this, are actually performing better and are more durable because of it. So this isn't just nice to have when times are good. This is something that needs to be sustained. And I think we're seeing pay transparency legislation accelerate across the country. We're seeing global compliance explode in Western Europe. We're seeing median and mean pay gaps really rise to the top in terms of shareholder proposals and what the activists are talking about, in requiring public companies to do race and gender audits. And I think we're going to see more and more of that. So we really help companies be ready and to use data to guide that discretion, as folks make decisions.
Andi Simon: I'm curious about "who I am, and how we do things." Changing culture is a painful process. Humans believe whatever they're doing is true. And I preach that the only truth is no truth. And so when you give them data, and there's some great articles, they've been republished recently about why humans don't read the data or the facts and actually believe them, they believe their own shared mythology about what it is. But, you're watching them actually take the data and turn them into reality.
So they begin to believe that in fact, there is a better way to define the job, promoting the job and get the biases out and look at what's factual. What I'm curious about is, what are people actually doing to do that? Hiring new people, training them but beginning to build? Because so often they get the data and do nothing with it.
Maria Colacurcio: I think we have a couple of things going for us. Number one, when you have to communicate to your people what you're doing to commit to things like pay equity, which has become table stakes, companies must ensure they are not paying unfairly or that there are parent pay disparities because of something like gender or race. And when you get into this situation where you have to communicate that to your people, you have pay ranges that are now public. You have to communicate to your people, why they're paid what they're paid, because the first question, when someone sees a role that's the same as theirs posted in terms of a company's now hiring, and they've got to publicly post that pay range. The first thing folks look at is, what's the job title and what's the top of the range?
And so the next question is going to be, why am I paid what I'm paid? So when companies are forced into a position where they have to communicate with their people, the data all of a sudden becomes not so much a negative but a positive because now it helps you explain, it's this huge benefit around pay explainability. You've got to be able to explain why people are paid what they're paid while they're in the area of the range that they are and the more companies have to explain.
Mean and median are another thing. Median reflects representation. So why are some people up at the top? Why are some people in the middle, where some folks are at the bottom, and when you have to explain that, the data all of a sudden becomes to unlock it and it becomes the context. It becomes the story, the narrative as to why these things are happening. And it's the authentic truth. So that's where we've seen an incredible amount of momentum as companies have had to go explain these things. They now have these data visualizations to rely on.
Andi Simon: Don't you love it? You know, I can only say that quietly, because I hope they love it as much as I love hearing about it because transformation is so hard. Data can be so transformational if you believe it and you use it, and if others are asking for it and make sense out of it. So I think it's really propelled the moment that is really propelling us to the next stage.
And if businesses can do so better, and retain people better, and grow them better with the data, that bias can really get diminished. It never goes away, but at least it can become far less powerful. Wow, exciting! You know, I could talk to you all afternoon and this is really a wonderful time, but I also know that my listeners like about a half hour together. As we're going to wrap up, are there two or three things that you think are takeaways? Things you can do? Some of them are serendipities right in front of you, but for you some things that you'd like them to be able to actually maybe do when they leave.
Maria Colacurcio: Yeah, I think one quote that sticks with me and I don't even know who said it, but it's: You get lucky when preparation meets opportunity. It's something that I try to live by because I'm a preparer and I work really hard. And I prepare for everything in my life, from the personal side with the kiddos and my husband and putting time and effort into my relationships. And also saying no to a lot of things that go against the goals that I have.
A lot of people ask me all the time, like, how do you do it all? I have the same amount of time as everyone else but there's a lot of things that I say no to in order to have time for the things that I really care about. And are those decisions difficult sometimes? But when you're really clear about what you're trying to prepare for, and what your targets are, that sets you in a position to have that luck when your preparation does meet opportunity. So I think that's number one.
I think number two: thinking about skills over experience and thinking about how you communicate your skills. So going back to communications and the power of communications, when you think about your skills as a whole, not necessarily your experience, but how do you talk about your trajectory and your nonlinear journey? And can you talk about yourself in a way that's more wholly encompassing of who you are as a person versus what you do right now? Or maybe what your last career choice was?
I think that can be incredibly beneficial. And for companies, I think just understanding this moment of transparency, if you can look at it as an opportunity. Right now there's a tidal wave coming in terms of transparency around workplace equity. Instead of waiting and being a laggard, taking this opportunity to be one of the first to dive into the center of the tidal wave to figure out: How do I embed this into the core of my company and take advantage of some first mover opportunities here. I think companies are going to see a huge leg up as it relates to employee loyalty and retention and keeping those high performers that you want to keep, even in times of incredible volatility.
Andi Simon: And they are very volatile. I think McKinsey's latest research on women in the workplace 2022 said: There's a great breakup happening. Women are leaving, they're frustrated for all the things that could help them turn around, and they're not getting the pay equity they're looking for. They don't see upward mobility. They don't have the sponsorship or the mentorship and they are just saying, "I've had enough. I'm going to find another path. Let me open up entrepreneurial opportunities for myself or new types of businesses emerging."
But, remember that women represent 60% of the kids in college. They graduate, they've got lots of talent, and they are tremendously capable of doing many things, including raising seven children at the same time you're CEO of a company. And if nothing else, Maria is a wonderful role model for how you can do all the things that matter, including saying no when you don't think it fits into what's important to you.
This has just been terrific. Let me wrap up for our listeners and our viewers. Thank you so much for coming. Keep sending me those emails. I love to share with you. And at the end of the day, whether it's collaboration, or they're allies with you in some fashion, but they're all trying to help us move in a new direction. That puts all of us on the climb of trying to figure out how to do this right and how to do it even better.
And I'm always delighted to share with you our my two books, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, and my third book is coming out and I can’t tell you a lot about it yet, but it'll be coming out in September of 2023. Maria has a chapter in it that you are going to love to read. It's just a great time to celebrate 100 amazing, trailblazing women who mean business, and they really do. Thank you for coming today. Maria, thank you again. It's been a pleasure. Bye bye now. Have a great day. Bye Bye.v
Hear how to refuse to be held back, especially as a woman
I listened to Kerry Flynn Barrett give a marvelous talk recently about burnout for the Westchester Business Council and couldn’t wait to share her ideas and insights with our fans. Careers like hers are common among many women I know who have started in a corporate job, moved up the ladder to higher positions in leadership, and then took off to form their own business. Kerry has done just that, and now she is building an exceptional business serving as a fractional CHRO officer and also a business partner and solutions provider. Do you wish to do this too? Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Faced with a wall? Like Kerry, leap over it!
In some ways, Kerry Barrett reflects the tensions women in business and corporations are feeling today. Perhaps exaggerated by the pandemic, women are abandoning the corporate ladder to find their own purpose and passion, much like she has done.
Kerry spent her entire career in healthcare as a Human Resources executive. She, like so many women, has found that the wave of consolidations taking place these days strips employees, particularly women, of their roles and responsibilities, as centralization moves the decision-making process into other departments. So what do smart women like Kerry do? They craft another pathway and make it work for them.
Women today are fleeing dead-end workplaces and starting their own businesses.
As you listen to our conversation, think about your own path. Where are you on that corporate ladder? Give serious consideration to what you want to do with your life. As was clearly apparent in the McKinsey “Women in the Workplace 2022” report that came out in October 2022, women are finding the corporate world neither open to their expertise nor accommodating to their talent and ambition. Rather than trying to find a niche, they are leaving rigid workplaces to find others that see them as talented contributors, not women looking for a job.
In some ways, many women I know, including myself, have had to confront the limits which corporations offer and discover other avenues where we can contribute, have a personal and professional purpose, and earn an excellent income. Perhaps it is time for business and corporate leaders to see what they are missing and rethink the place of women in their organizations. The women aren’t waiting. In fact, they are very smart ladies on their own missions to build better businesses.
To connect with Kerry, you can find her on LinkedIn, Twitter, or her website, or email her at kfb@flynnbarrett.com.
Want to find a better workplace environment or strike out on your own? Start here:
- Blog: Businesses Must Sustain Diversity And Inclusion For Women
- Podcast: Christina Sistrunk—Is There Magic To Excel As A Strong Woman In A Man's Industry?
- Podcast: Jodi Flynn—How To Go From Dreaming To Doing, At Work And In Life
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And as I say in every podcast, my job is to get you off the brink. Remember, this all came about after my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, was published and won an award. And everybody said, How do I get off the brink? And there's no better way to do it than to listen to the speakers on this podcast talk about how you can get better at whatever you're doing to change.
Remember, people hate to change. And so our job is to make change your friend, embrace change, and see things through a fresh lens. And I say that because we decide with the eyes and with the heart and how it feels. And then our brains get engaged and you begin to think about it.
So today, I'm absolutely delighted to have with me Kerry Flynn Barrett, and let me tell you about Kerry. Kerry gave a talk at the Westchester Business Council not too long ago. And I was just intrigued by her presentation. That topic was on burnout. But what was most interesting was her perspectives that came from a healthcare background, like my own. I did that for seven years in healthcare as an executive. I wasn't a nurse as she was, but I sure understood the feelings that you get when you're working with an organization of over 2500 or 5000 people, all of whom work hard to make your life better.
And then she launched her business not long ago to be, of all things, a Chief Human Resource Officer. And she's going to tell you a little bit more about her journey. But the question she's asking is, Are you an organization that understands that people are your most valuable assets? And I must tell you, coming out of the pandemic, people are reaching out to us and asking us what to do because everything's changed. Managing individuals with individual needs and roles is challenging for even the best companies, and managing people is the hardest job, full stop.
In fact, we can't get anything done as leaders or managers without followers. And why do people follow you? Are they bystanders? Are they invested in what you're doing? Do they believe in you? Every leader asked me the same question: "How do I get things done through others?" To begin with, how about with others instead of through them? It's an interesting question. Kerry, thank you for joining me today.
Kerry Flynn Barrett: Thank you Andi so much for having me. It's such a pleasure.
Andi Simon: Well, it was a pleasure to meet you. But let's tell our listeners and our viewers about your own journey. You have a great story to share. Please share it.
Kerry Flynn Barrett: Sure. So I believe very strongly in the fact that we are all "a person" from the start. It doesn't mean that's what our journey will be where we began. So I began as a nurse. I have worked in healthcare for so many years. But that doesn't mean that's the only place where my journey was.
So I was a nurse, an ICU and emergency department nurse, for over 12 years. And I love doing what I did. But then I switched over to the world of HR. And I worked in that field for 25 or so years, and loved every minute of it, really, truly. It's such a fascinating world. And when you think about it, it's all about working with people, right?, nursing, and HR. It's all about working with people and coming up with different strategies. And as I have said, and what I work in in my practice, I use the nursing process all the time in my practice. So it's all about that process. It's about how we assess what's going on in a scenario. We have to listen, as you said, we have to use our eyes. We also have to use our ears.
So that's such an important part of my journey in going from nursing into HR. Three years ago, I started my own practice, Flynn Barrett Consulting, right before the pandemic. So probably all of you are saying, Oh my goodness gracious, how do you start a business and then boom, the pandemic hits. So I have been incredibly lucky. Or just happenstance to be in HR at a time in the pandemic when HR was really needed.
So it's been quite the journey and even from the time of starting my business, that business has flowed very differently in the three years of time. So I refer to myself as a fractional chief HR officer. So I help companies with their HR strategy. And I use, as I said, the nursing process in what I do with companies.
So,often companies come to me because they are having people problems. As we said, in companies, really the most important asset are their people. And this is such a difficult time in the world right now, with people finding new jobs, leaving their organizations, the great resignation. How many people are just really sick of hearing that term? I'm sick of hearing that term, or the other term, which is quiet quitting.
I have employers saying to me, or CEOs saying to me, "How do I know that my employees are not quiet quitting?" Well, you know, this is one of the challenges that a lot of companies are facing. So people's problems are huge right now. So it is a lot of fun working at this time. But equally, there are so many challenges that are out there. And it doesn't mean that there is always the perfect solution for one company or if it is exactly the same solution for that next company.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, Kerry, when we were preparing for this, I mentioned that we have several leadership academies. And the topic is around how does one get things done with others? That's the essence of a company. And sometimes people come to me and say, "We have an enormous retention problem. It's our culture, we want to go back to the culture of pre-pandemic." But what was that culture of pre pandemic?
I love the Financial Times, my favorite reading in the morning, and its tremendous insights. In France, for example, they insist that you do not work on the weekends. You have your private time. Talking about burnout. And now I think Portugal and Spain have adopted this as well.
The hardest part when you're remote working, is: what is the weekend? The weekend? And how do you do it? And then you have a hybrid? And there was great research from McKinsey, I was just reading, where women are perfectly happy not going back. And how are they using the time that they're not commuting? Well, they're doing all kinds of fulfilling things. Remember that work-life balance? Well, it got imbalanced, because now I have time to do life.
And so there are real transformations going on. And as you shake your head, yes, our listeners, she's shaking her head. The question is, What are you seeing in your process analysis to help a client listening to think through what would I do now to begin to assess the major questions that are facing us as employers and employees to get our businesses really thriving? Your thoughts?
Kerry Flynn Barrett: Well, I will tell you, very often, in this time, right now, employers are saying, Should I bring my employees back full time? That seems to be the top question. And my response is by answering it with a question: Why do you need to bring your employees back full time? And so I think it's important for that analysis to be done as to: Is it important for that particular business. And it does depend upon the business.
Obviously, if we're talking about the hospitality business, that's a different story, and the healthcare business. Depending upon the position within the business, it makes a difference. If you're talking about a finance position within healthcare, that's a position that could be remote or hybrid, as opposed to a direct caregiver obviously needing to be in-person. So we need to be looking at this very specifically down to those nitty gritty details to make sense of whether or not we're bringing people back.
So that makes a very big difference when we're talking about culture. And when I hear companies say, "Oh, I want to go back to what the culture used to be," or "Employees are being very demanding now," I will say, "Well, tell me what you mean by employees being very demanding?" "Well, my employees are saying that they require that they work hybrid." And so my response is always, "Well, is it something that works for your workplace for them to work hybrid?" "Well, yes, it does." "Well, then if it does, why is it that we're calling those employees demanding? Isn't it something that actually is working? And why aren't we working together as a team on what's best for your organization, rather than having more of an argument about it, and fighting about it?"
So it's really fascinating because in my lifetime, I think about these demanding employees and I wish I could have been a little bit more demanding as an employee when I was earlier in my career. I probably would have done way better. But I don't think that in many cases, employees are actually being demanding. I think employers are actually looking at some scenarios, and actually looking at them now with rose colored glasses, but looking at them thoughtfully and saying, Does it really make a difference if I'm doing this work at home or in the office? And I recently actually wrote a blog about this.
If in fact, we're bringing employees back to the office, and they're sitting in an office, and they're on Zoom calls in the office, what is the point? That just makes absolutely no sense. So then the employees feel like, "Well, you've really kind of duped me, that is just not really treating me as a professional." So if in fact, you have meaningful work for somebody in the office, and that makes sense, then absolutely. But if you don't, then let's really think about that twice.
All in all, sit down with your employees, talk with your employees, listen to what their challenges are. Just listen to them for their ideas because they have great thoughts. That's why you hired them. Otherwise, it's not a great reflection on you if you think that you've hired people who aren't that smart. You hired them because they're smart, and you should listen to them.
Andi Simon: I love the conversation where it's about feeling. Two things I want to add. I often preach, being an anthropologist as I am, that words create our worlds. And as I'm listening to you, I can hear the leadership, the C-suite, mimicking others who are all too often men thinking about their stature. And they're mastering being in the C-suite. And that is about demand, and owning and controlling the environment in which people are working. And I find that the most exciting clients I have are the ones who are asking the questions with a real openness to change the words that are creating their worlds, that we know that the challenge for humans is, we live the stories in our minds.
And there's nothing more frightening than change because the cortisol is flying around there saying, Oh, fear this. But for those who are leading, pause for a moment and change the story: couldn't you be a leader in the next breed of companies that thrive and thrive? Remember, some of the major companies weren't perfect. For example, in a global company with everyone remote, take a look at what people can do if they aren't in the office. And the gig economy has become a really interesting, flexible workforce for you. But it requires you to change your mind. And don't be a copycat. Think about what it is that you can do and create something new. Because everything is new now. It's not what used to be, right?
Kerry Flynn Barrett: That's right. It doesn't mean that just because somebody isn't working in front of you, that they're not working. And productivity can be measured in different ways than tracking someone's computer.
Andi Simon: Now, that's a big topic. Are we moving to outcomes evaluation as opposed to punch cards? And time? Are we still in a machine model mode of a workplace? Are we managing minds? And I thought, I've been preaching for many years now that we've moved from managing hands to managing minds. But the mindset of coming back into the office feels like, "I kind of manage that person," as opposed to the product. What do you see?
Kerry Flynn Barrett: I'm seeing a little bit of both. I'm seeing a little bit of both, and I think it depends upon the particular leader. I think that unfortunately, sometimes past practice or past performance of someone has created a fear factor. So for example, if a particular leader has had someone really perform poorly in the past, they have unfortunately taken that model and said, "Well, because X person did this, I'm not going to allow anybody else to do it." Instead of saying, "Okay, that person was the anomaly. And I'm going to allow others, who are professionals, to rise above and be able to do it."
So unfortunately, I'm seeing some of that. And there's just too much of a fear factor. And I think that's because the threat of the recession is there. And I think there's just some fear of the recession and money. So there's a little bit more of that right now. But I think the more progressive leaders, to your point, are just more comfortable in their own skin, and more comfortable in their own practice. And they are very open to saying to the employees, What works best for you. Unless, of course, it is an environment where it is very dictated by, like a creative environment, where they do need to bring people together, for example.
Andi Simon: Then we have the challenge of another generation. I often talk about demography is destiny. And so you have a workplace. I mean, I had one great client, whose board were mostly Boomers, and most of his new hires were all the Gen Ys and some Gen Zs. And they had very different ideas about everything. It was like they were foreign languages, both speaking English, but boy, they didn't understand each other at all. And so now you have that added to the mix. Are you finding that as well?
Kerry Flynn Barrett: Absolutely, absolutely. But in addition to that, I don't really discuss that much about the generations as much as I discuss empowered workers, because I find that empowered workers can be of any generation. And I think sometimes those in Gen X and Gen Y are just like Millennials who get a bad rap. And they get kind of stereotyped as being difficult. And I don't necessarily find that to be the case always.
And so it is funny, though, that I am seeing a lot of the empowered workers versus the seasoned workers, is what I refer to it as. And so there is somewhat of the seasoned workers who feel that the empowered workers need to go through this rite of passage. "We did this and we had to suffer, so therefore, you're going to have to do that." And I don't know, I don't understand that. Why would want anyone to have to go through something and suffer?
Andi Simon: The interesting part is to your point, there's nothing reasonable or rational about it. It's a human symbolic transformation of coming from the outside to become part of us, and we control the space. So therefore, you can't get in unless we let you. But remember that Millennials are 50% of the workforce now. The Boomers, hang on tight, because the changes are coming. And somehow you got to embrace it.
Kerry Flynn Barrett: Right. And I have said that to some of the companies that I've worked with: "You can stand there kicking and screaming, or you can accept, listen and learn. It's entirely up to you which way that you go. I could make a suggestion."
Andi Simon: I actually had one situation where they gave the new hires the job of mentoring those who had been there a while. In other words, How do we introduce you to them instead of them taking charge of you, and you come in and really educate them as to the things that matter, because you are our future, let's face it, and if we can build it together into a future that will thrive.
But there are also things you don't know, maybe those are all changed. I have one great client, and their buyers had all retired and their salespeople were calling their buyers, nobody was buying. And they didn't understand why nobody was answering the phone. And as we did the research, the retirees were replaced by 30-somethings, and they didn't answer the phone. And they weren't going to answer the phone, and they weren't going to buy on the phone and maybe because of one relationship. And it was sort of like, But what are we going to do?
I said, I think you're gonna change. So you gotta figure this out. We're gonna have to figure it out. Now, when you spoke at the Westchester Business Council, you spoke about burnout. And I don't want to not discuss that, you had some great insights, because this word, you're telling me, let's not talk about the great resignation. I'm sort of looking around and saying, burnout is self-induced. You know, if in France you don't have to work on the weekend, is anyone telling you to work on the weekends? Or is anyone telling you to work all the time? And so can you share with our listeners and our viewers about your perspective on this thing called burning out?
Kerry Flynn Barrett: Sure. So for sure. And some of it is self-inflicted. Some people are just naturally driven people, and they want to get ahead. I understand it, I'm a type A through to the core, always was, probably always will be. In my own business, I made the choice on how it is that I want to do things. So I get to work when I want to work. So I changed the whole structure of how I do it. So I understand it.
I think that women have a very, very difficult time, especially those who were young in childbearing years and trying to get ahead in the workplace, who are trying to do everything. And I think that our work community isn't always as supportive of them, as it should be. And I don't know that women are equally as supportive of fellow women as we should be. And I think it is not always allowed or thought to be allowed, because of stigmas for somebody to stand up and say that they just really are burnt, they're just really burnt out and they need a break.
I don't think a lot of women feel that they have opportunities to make career changes. I don't think that they think that they can take a break, and be able to come back into the workforce successfully. And so I think those are the types of things that we need to do a better job with. I hope we will do a better job with it. There are some groups that are really helping women with that. But I think that that is something that is a real challenge. And I think it is something that is real. And I think that there are corporations, some corporations are very, very helpful and known to be supportive of women in the workplace.
Andi Simon: Well, that's an interesting word. Because whether it's gender bias, or it's understanding that women do have to care for children and what's wrong with that, can't we get a childcare center here to make it easier for them, and actually thinking about women as a whole, as opposed to another worker. And it's an interesting time. I always preach, never waste a crisis. Use the pandemic as an opportunity to think big.
You know, the women aren't coming back after the pandemic the way the workplace could use them, right?, with a recession. But they just aren't; they basically are looking for jobs or careers that will allow them to balance in a different fashion. They've discovered they can work from home. And I used to coach women who were executives, and they were taking care of the laundry and cooking dinner and working on a computer and taking care of the kids and working on the computer and taking care of meetings and they didn't miss a beat. But they had life in a very different, very interesting fashion.
And they said to me, "You know, this is really cool, I can get life done and also work." And I went, Oh, there's some kernels of real interesting stuff. Was it hard? Yes. But life is, unless you're going to be a stay-at-home mom. And that's hard. There isn't a thing, "easy," right? And I used to laugh. People would say, "I have to balance life and work." I said, "Isn't work life? And Isn't life work?"
I mean, through words we do create our worlds. So you know, you have a challenging time of it. But as you guys were talking about burnout, there was this sense that if it's not in our hands, and we can't control it, it isn't really in the boss's hands either. And I've heard too many places who have said to their management don't talk about behavioral health, emotional well-being, it's not appropriate for us to talk about. I don't want to talk about it, and I'm saying to myself, Well, maybe it's not a bad time to put it in part of the discussion. Because, you know, 30% of Americans are depressed. And that's not just those who are unhealthy; way more, way more. And you can't simply all deal with it with a pill.
So life has become challenging. It's never been easy. But I do think it's an interesting time to really rethink women in the workplace in a way that can be exciting and exhilarating, instead of painful, and why not? 60% of the college graduates are women, they're all smart. They're all looking for good opportunities. So as you're looking ahead, anything coming into your future or ours that we could share?
Kerry Flynn Barrett: I do have to say this, Andi, just to go backwards a little bit. 30 years ago, I had a boss who told me that when I walked through the doors, I needed to park my life outside the door, when I walked in. And I had a 6-week old child. I told him that there was absolutely no way that I could ever possibly park my life outside the door. Okay, that was just not humanly possible for me as a thinking, breathing person to do that in order to be able to do my job. And he said, and I learned more from him, and I say this to this day, on what never to do as a boss.
During the pandemic, there was a woman I knew who is a C-suite person and her 4-year-old was climbing over her, she was on a Zoom call. And all the other C-suite individuals were men. And she was criticized afterwards by her boss, because of the fact that her child was climbing on her. And she did the same work, just like everybody else. And it was not a problem. And she said to them, she said, "You do realize all of your wives probably were taking care of your children? And my husband was on his business call. And I didn't skip a beat on that call." So why is it that we criticize our women who are doing this? Totally unacceptable. So we have to do a better job.
Andi Simon: Did they say anything to her? Or was it just simply her trying to establish the credibility? I mean, I couldn't agree with you and her more. But the attitude was, you know, don't mix that. I mean, "I didn't miss a beat on my call, I perform for you."
Kerry Flynn Barrett: I met her boss and he said something to her afterwards that it was inappropriate for her to have her child in the call. So what's going forward? I think that we can do a much better job: for men, for women, for everyone, for transgender, for every single person in the workplace. I think we can be incredibly inclusive. I think that we could do a better job with just general equity. Just hearing about wage equity, thinking about that this morning. What's going on?
November 1st is here tomorrow. New York City and Westchester County declaring wage equity. Thank goodness we're doing this. I think it's important for people to know that they have choices in the workplace. And then they should speak their mind. And if the workplace doesn't accept that, then maybe it's just not the right workplace for them. And there are people out there who will help them to find another workplace. So I think that's very important for people to know.
Andi Simon: And the times, they are a-changing, like Bob Dylan told us. But I think that we can't go backwards. And when people say the pandemic put women back 30 years, it breaks my heart, but we can't let it happen and we must vote. And mostly for business's sake, our economy depends upon vibrant businesses, and women leading companies are doing amazing jobs. And it's a time for change. So let's embrace change and make it our friend, and see how great things can be. Kerry, one or two things you don't want the listeners to forget.
Kerry Flynn Barrett: I just don't want people to stop listening. I mean, I think it's just the most important thing. And to stop and listen, to put your phone down. Don't be looking at your phone while you're listening. Whether or not it's your child, your husband, your employee, whatever it is, I really say to listen. I think that is the one thing that you could do for your employees. That's so important. And every single employee deserves 10 minutes of your time, whether or not it's once a week, once every two weeks. I think that is absolutely critical. And if you tell me you don't have time for that, then you and I could really talk, and we could talk about how you could better use your time that would help you so that you can find that 10 minutes of time.
Andi Simon: And to add to that, that when you listen, try and stay focused on what they are saying, not what you're thinking, because our minds are trying to take the words they're saying and make sense out of them in the story that we have in our mind, not really what you're hearing. And I'll only tell you how many times in our careers, it wasn't what they said, it's what we heard. And it had nothing to do with what they meant. And that is ask questions to clarify.
Kerry Flynn Barrett: Make sure you really understand.
Andi Simon: And that means you cannot have your cell phone sitting there or your computer in front of you. This has been such fun. If they want to reach you, where could they do that, Kerry?
Kerry Flynn Barrett: Oh, very simply, I'm on LinkedIn. My email is KFB so, easy to find me KFB@Flynnbarrett.com. I have my own website. It's www.Flynnbarrett.com. And please reach out to me on my website. And you can just send a quick question or an inquiry. I look forward to hearing from anybody.
Andi Simon: If you want a very smart fractional Chief Human Resource Officer, or just a very sharp coach, or someone who can help you see, feel and think in new ways, meet Kerry Flynn Barrett, because she's here to help you do just what we love to do, which is to change and the times they are changing.
And so for all of our listeners, thank you for coming. It's always so much fun to share with you smart people who are really here to help you do what I love: to see and feel and think in new ways. And remember, we're here to help your organization adapt to these fast changing times. Stay with us. Stay tuned and listen to some of the webinars and speeches that I have posted on our website. We're talking all the time about how to make change and how to embrace change, and particularly how to rethink women in the workplace. And on that note, I'll say have a great day. Remember our theme is take observation and turn it into innovation. I hope you've had a great day today. Bye bye now.
Hear how to make the most of your choices, at work and in life
Meet Christina Sistrunk, former President and CEO at Aera Energy. You are going to love listening to her wisdom for thriving in the male-dominated energy industry. As Christina will share with you, she found that the hardest problems to solve usually were the ones around how well people work together, or don't, that made the problems more complicated. She explains how figuring out how to bring people together and enable them to be as successful as they had the potential to be was the most challenging part of being a leader, especially a woman leader. A lot to learn!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Your ability to think independently actually creates opportunities
One of Christina's main joys at this stage in her career is helping people understand how they can be more effective, not only in their career, but even in their personal life, about seeing the opportunity to make different choices. Better choices create better outcomes, whether at work, or at home. You can connect with Christina on LinkedIn or by email, sistrunk1984@gmail.com.
For more guidance about career choices and following your passion, start with these:
- Blog: How Can You Thrive As A Woman In A Male-Dominated Industry? 5 Steps To Follow
- Podcast: Vicki Baker—Isn't It Time For You To Power Through To Your Next Career Stop?
- Podcast: Claire Harbour-Lyell—Disrupt Your Career To Reach Even Greater Heights
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And as such, my job is to help you get off the brink. I want you to soar again. And sometimes you need some new ideas, a fresh approach, interesting ways to see, feel and think in new ways. Remember, we decide with our eyes and our heart. And all of a sudden you say, "I don't know where I'm going." I keep hearing over and over among my clients, even my colleagues, my friends, "What's next?" So it's important for you to begin to see what is next, regardless of where you are on your life's journey.
It's good to have a vision for yourself, a personal one of what you would like to see happen as you go through life. It's better than figuring it out on the fly, and it's better than trying to make decisions without any direction. But it's always interesting to listen to wonderful people who have had great journeys. And they want to share them with you so that you too can see how life can move along and take you to great places.
So today, Evelyn Medvin is a wonderful woman who has a chapter in my book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businesss. And Evelyn is just wonderful. Her story's wonderful. She celebrates being a geoscientist when there are many women there. So she introduced me to Christina Sistrunk. Now, Christina has had a very wonderful career. Let me tell you about her, then she'll tell you about her own journey. But listen carefully, because she has grown up in a world where women aren't usually successful. And when you begin to understand others, and they become your role models, you begin to say, ah, that's how we do it. And of course, I can do it. And next thing you know, remember, if I can't see it, I can't be it. So see her as somebody who you too could be.
So here's Christina's resume. Over 30 years, Christina has held management and executive roles, focusing on assessing and delivering next level performance. And that's always an interesting term. She's led organizations across EMP industries, both IOC and independent, ranging in revenue from two to ten billion. She was CEO of Aera Energy for five years. I'm going to let her tell you a little bit more about what EMP means and what the CEO of Aera Energy was like. But I'll finish her resume so that we can get into her story of how she has experienced organizational turnarounds, including cash management and restructuring.
Her focus has been on value creation, through the development of effective strategy, execution, improved leadership capability and accountability. Now, you know that I have several leadership academies out there. And one of the themes for leaders as followers, and how do you hold them accountable? And how do they get inspired to want to do this, so that they're giving the gift of giving back, as opposed to waiting to be told what to do?
So her expertise is extremely relevant, regardless of what industry you're in. She's improved cash flow and profitability while creating step changes in safety and environmental performance and stakeholder engagement. Prior to her CEO role, she was a VP focused on, of all things, deep water production, and then the Arctic strategy, which is sort of interesting all by itself. Now, she started her career after earning a BS in Chemical Engineering from Ohio State University. But she's ready to tell you more about who is Christina Sistrunk and why it's so wonderful to have her on today. Christina, thank you for joining me.
Christina Sistrunk: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for making the time for me.
Andi Simon: You have a great smile, we're going to do a lot of smiling today. I know the audience wants to know about Christina, your journey. How did you choose to go into this field? I have a hunch that there weren't a lot of female role models who were embracing it and tasting it. But you're an explorer, and one who's willing to take on all kinds of new stuff, solving complex problems in different ways and giving a great twist to the journey that you've been on. Who are you and tell our audience all about you?
Christina Sistrunk: Well, thank you so much. I think I'll start kind of at the beginning, right. So I was raised in a town of 7,000 people in a rural part of Ohio and neither of my parents graduated from high school. And so thinking about what I wanted to do career-wise, I went through public school and really had an interest in science and math. And actually, at a fairly young age, my recollection is, it was sometime around when I was about 12, my dad, who worked in a union job in a factory, sat me down and said, "Look, every time you come home excited about what you might want to do, what you want to be when you grow up, it requires college.. You have to understand, we don't have the resources to do that. We'll do everything we can to try and support you, but that's not something that you can necessarily count on. So you're going to have to figure out how to make this work if that's what you really want."
So I got very focused on academics and what I needed to do and where there were opportunities for scholarships. And just as I talked to people, and I talked to people that were a couple years older than me and as I got closer to college, I talked to friends who were in college about different career choices. I realized that the interest I had in science and math probably put me on a pathway to better financial stability. And I'd also seen my father work in a job for decades that he didn't seem to like or enjoy. And so I wanted to find something that I could do that I could support myself, that would also allow me to have a satisfying and rewarding career.
And so I decided to go into engineering, partly because I was torn between advanced math, education and engineering. And a friend who was a little older said, "Well, here's the thing. If you go into education, and you figure out you don't like it, and then you want to switch to engineering, you can't do that and get out of college in four years with your scholarships right now. But if you start in engineering, decide you don't like it and want to switch to education, you'll still be able to get out in four years. The first complex problem to solve, what's the backup plan?"
And so I started engineering, went to Ohio State University, partly because of scholarships that were available to me there and the affordability of that as an institution, because I didn't want to have a bunch of debt when I got out of school. And had a great education and had a lot of opportunities because of making that choice. But also, I never met an engineer until I got to college. So the worst engineers that I ever met were professors at the university. So I committed to studying something that I really didn't have a good understanding of. But the more I learned, the more excited I got about the opportunities that were open. And in fact, how many opportunities were available.
If you studied engineering or other STEM fields of study, the choices were much different than had I chosen other disciplines to start with. And that kept me very excited. I then did some interning while I was still in college, got a better idea of what was involved in various aspects of the industry, and in fact, did an internship after my sophomore year in exploration and production in oil and gas. So that's the part of the business that figures out where to drill the wells, how to drill the wells safely, how to get the oil and gas out of the ground, and then deliver it to pipelines, where it then goes to be made into a variety of products.
But the upstream part of the business kind of lets go of it once it goes into the pipeline, and others take over from there. And it was like a giant puzzle every day trying to figure out where the oil was. How do we get it out in the best way possible? How do we figure out what's going on with the wells? And so it always felt like a puzzle where you try to figure out what was going on, sometimes three miles away from you underground, to keep the process flowing. And I really enjoyed that.
As I went through my career, I got an opportunity to take on a lot of different kinds of roles. And then I started to see that, as much as I was originally drawn to the business because of the technical challenges, I found that actually the hardest problems to solve usually were the ones around how the overall system worked and how people work together, or didn't, that made the problems more complicated. And that actually figuring out how to bring people together and enable them to be as successful as they had the potential to be was an even more challenging part of the business.
And that's when I started to move into supervisory and then managerial roles, and ultimately winding up as a CEO running a California oil and gas company for five years. And, it really was about taking things step by step, thinking about often, "If this were my business, whatever job I was in, if I was a supervisor, or a department manager, if this were my business, how do we actually deliver value?" And that's just not financial numbers. How do we make the business safer? Or do we make sure we're developing our employees and do the employees feel valued in what they're doing? So how do we deliver that value? Better than we did last year? And where are the opportunities? Where are the risks? And how do we unleash the capacity that we've got to make a difference in this part of the business?
So, honestly being a woman in oil and gas for over three decades, I won't tell you that everybody I worked with just embraced me with open arms and expected me to succeed. But I will say, I think many more people did than the industry often gets credit for. I think what helped me be successful was, I almost came from such an odd background. So my parents didn't have a lot of expectations about what I was going to do educationally. I had to figure out why I was there. So I had always had an underlying desire or compass that was driving me about figuring out how these things worked, and figuring out how I could make a difference.
One of the great things about working in a technical field, even if you don't see a lot of other role models that might look exactly like you, that commitment around understanding those challenges and contributing to those challenges, and your ability to think independently, maybe partly because my background was so different, actually creates opportunities. And it's about kind of having your "Spidey sense" up to say, "If that opportunity isn't going to be available to me, where else can I go, and contribute and learn what I need to learn next?" And usually, there's some other place where somebody's looking for talent, and we'll be happy to have you come join if you're committed to making a difference and helping people around you be successful. We might have to take a little different path, but if you just keep looking for those opportunities, you will find them.
Andi Simon: Let's emphasize that there isn't a straight line between where we start and where we end up. And if you think there is, perhaps there was at one point, but no more, and I don't really think there ever was. It isn't about others making the path for you. It's about you being able to control and accelerate your own growth and curiosity, and know yourself and tell a story that is embraced by others and not threatening.
I hear a lot of this is around collaboration, this is creativity, this isn't about an ego that needs to soar. This is about a woman who wants to build. I need a few illustrations because I'm just a curious person. So as you're digging for oil, in the underground deep water area, and then the Arctic, lessons learned, insights to share? I'm just curious, what was it like and how did you live there?
Christina Sistrunk: Well, you know, it looked different in different times. So you know, a parallel path on this journey: I actually met my husband on a rig in the Gulf of Mexico. Oh, that's a great step. I think any woman that is going to be successful in business, you make lots of decisions that help you along the way in business, but I've got to say, who you choose as your spouse, and the level of support that they're willing to put on the table to make your partnership work, to make you successful, for you to make them successful, that is a really important choice. And it can make the road a lot easier, or it can make the road exponentially more difficult.
And so that's an important choice I made career-wise as well, we're also trying to balance, you know, we had a child fairly early in my career. And because my husband worked away from home about 50% of the time, there were times in my career when I knew I wanted to limit how much I wanted to travel or what kind of roles I wanted to be in for a period of time, because our child needed a level of stability at home that I wanted to make sure we could provide.
And, so you think that that might automatically change what you have the potential to do. And it probably did. But a career is a very long runway. And so, again, the path may take some jogs in it, but it's about how you are true to your values. How are you true to the talents that you start to realize that you've got, or that you have the ability to develop? And what's your plan for what the next one looks? And the next after that? And how do you start to gain the skills and experience that you think you're going to need? If you were the hiring manager, what would you be looking for? And how do you put yourself in that position?
So you know, at one point in time, I'll tell you about a story when I was actually working as a VP in the Gulf of Mexico, for Shell. And we had done a lot of good things in the organization, but we had seen our safety performance plateau. So compared to where we had been five years before, we were doing great. But when I looked at the number of people that were still getting hurt and going home hurt in our operations, day in and day out, the number was really too high. And when I had come into that role, I had worked in the global headquarters, leading a big safety improvement effort, so I knew all the things to do technically. And we had done all those things technically. And we had still kind of hit this wall. We weren't getting any better, we were doing everything we knew how to do, but it wasn't good enough.
And I went home over the holidays, had to look myself in the mirror and say, "My people are generating the level of performance that my leadership is asking for, and so what is it about the way I'm leading that has got to shift if we're going to get to a place where everybody in our operation is going home safe?" At the end of every shift, I had to do a lot of soul searching, I had to reach out to some people and ask for help. So I could look at some people, some other organizations that were making faster progress. You know, were they willing to talk to me when I picked up the phone? They absolutely were and to share their story with me.
And then it really was about sitting down with the leaders that reported to me and saying, okay, here's our performance. We've got to own this. And it was interesting, because I asked them to do some things that were pretty pressing on their parts and their plates were already full and I was asking them to spend a lot more time working with their people in this area. And it wasn't clear what was going to come off their plate to enable that. And one of the more senior people that worked for me, looks at me, and he says, "Well this is all well and good and we're all bought into what you're encouraging us to move forward on. But you know, you're asking a lot of us and we don't see that you put any skin in this game."
Now, the interesting thing was that, coincidentally, as I've been thinking about how I could lead differently, I actually already had an action plan that I had planned to put in place, but I hadn't shared that with the rest of the team. And I said, "Well, here's what I'm going to do. Everybody makes fun of how busy my schedule is. And it is. And I'm going to tell you every single time somebody gets hurt anywhere on one of our operations as long as I'm in the United States. So if I'm somewhere in Europe at a global leadership team meeting, I can't honor this, but it'll just take me longer on set as long as I'm in the United States. Within 48 hours, I'll sit down with the operations manager who was based in the same office I was in with the actual site manager, with the supervisor, and the person who got hurt. If there's anybody else in that kind of chain of command, we're going to have an open and honest discussion about what we missed, what we have to learn and what they need."
And so at first, quite honestly, I was kind of going all over the place, and breaking into my calendar a couple of times a month which sent a loud message to the organization. And in fact, one of the times I actually went to the site was on December 23, and I went home on Christmas Eve because that's when the injury had occurred. And boy, did that send a message to that crew about how serious we were about wanting to understand what was going on and how we needed to change so that they could go home safe to their families at the end of every shift. And that was a real turning point, because for me, as a female leader in an oil and gas company, you don't know all the answers. And in fact, we're going to experiment. And we're just going to keep at it until we figure out how to make this better. Yeah, that's not a traditional way to lead.
Andi Simon: But control going on?
Christina Sistrunk: No, a mentor of mine many years before this has said, "You know, your value for safety has to be higher than your discomfort at what you'll need to do to change." And I thought I understood what that meant at the time. And I thought, well, of course, my value for safety is higher than that. When I had to look in the mirror and say, "Am I willing to walk into my guys and say, 'I don't have the answers, but this is what we're going to try next and we're going to figure our way through this.'" Yeah, we learned together. That was, you know, that was a moment of truth for me.
Andi Simon: And the results were?
Christina Sistrunk: We reduced the amount of injuries for the next two years by 60% every year. That's a big deal. And when you think about every one of those people, even if they were going home with a few stitches in their hand, it might have been much more serious and that was going to interfere with their life when they got home. So whatever it is that they chose to do in their free time, whether they had kids or they didn't have kids, it was a disruption in their life that they didn't deserve to have to deal with. So it was a very big deal.
And again, we can talk about policies, and we can talk about values til the cows come home: the question is, what are we doing to really demonstrate them? And how do we send a message to people about what's important, and how important they are to us without saying a word? You know, just by them being able to see how you show up is really important.
Andi Simon: Now, as you know, this is a rich conversation, and I'm enjoying it. But some of the things that we're looking at for your next phase in your journey is, how do you take all of these lessons learned, experiences that many other people will never experience? And you're no longer the CEO of a company, you're looking at the next phase in your own life? And what's the multiplier here? Because just that you did it, and your group did, it was great. What do you want to see next? Because I think that's where the reflection is turning into for yourself. What matters to me, in my next phase of my journey here? What are you thinking about?
Christina Sistrunk: If I could wave a magic wand, I'd like to help people understand how they can be more effective, not only in their career, but even in their personal life about seeing the opportunity to make different choices. And having that creates better outcomes, and that can be at work, or it can be at home.
So I think one of the hallmarks of my career, and it looked different at different phases, but one of my hallmarks of my career was learning practical ways to bring people together to solve problems that seem too complex. So these are the kinds of problems, maybe you've tried two or three easy answers and they haven't really given you the results that you want or the improvement that you want, or it may actually have created new problems for you. So how do you kind of break that cycle and see opportunities to solve problems differently.
So when I worked for Aera, Aera had built a very strong problem-solving capability. They were a company that ran Visual Lean Manufacturing. That's the way of designing work processes and solving problems that Toyota had created, and then they applied it to the oil and gas business. So they had a lot of discipline about solving problems. But if you don't think about the why, and I'd say, "Employee, a few things that I want to share with you," you can almost become so rote in the way you think about problems that you don't actually get to the root of the problem and actually solve it. You just paper over it, so to speak.
And in fact, one of the things that I saw that cropped up in that system, for a little while I think got around it, was that if you have a particular set of questions that you ask, you can actually reverse engineer that process to implement a solution that you think the solution is the right answer. And I've been in a lot of organizations where people think they're solving a problem, but what they're actually doing is advocating for a particular solution without defining the problem in front. And that usually is not as successful as it needs to be.
So the key is, I think the first question you have to ask is, why do we even need to work on this at all? Now, it may be a pet peeve for you, but is it really worth the time and the effort to take it on, to think about what the real problem is, to create a few collaborators, which will probably be important. If it's a complex problem for you to fully understand it, others will need to be impacted by it as well or they're not going to put the time into helping you solve it.
So first, why do you need to solve it at all? Is it an irritation? Or does it really need to be tackled? And why now? So how do you define it in objective terms? What is this costing you, or what opportunity is precluding it from happening? And taking the time to kind of go, "Relative to everything else that we're working on, why would this go to the top of the list?" Just thinking about those things before you get started.
Actually it is really important because you can't do 10 major things at one time well. You can probably only do one or two if they're really significant. So why that problem? And why now? Then once you get thinking about it, can you really explain the problem? I would challenge from at least two points of view. So what's the problem? Why now? And how does it look to you? But how does it look to somebody else in the organization? Maybe who vehemently disagrees with you. You've got to see the problem from at least two very different points of view, or you don't understand the problem.
Then you start to work with others and actually trying to understand that other point of view, go into somebody else in a different part of the organization or somebody you know that would actually disagree with you, and just listen to him talk about what it is that you think is a problem. Where's the commonality? Look at it through their eyes, or, you know, if you're seeing the problem because that group is so screwed up. Well, I bet it looks entirely different in that other group. What are they saying about that and taking the time to understand that? Well, then the question is,How do you think about what options there might be to solve it? Push yourself to come up with multiple ways that you think you might be able to solve this again, work with others, test what you see as the problem statement, the points of view around what this encompasses and what it doesn't encompass.
And then, you know what?, what are different ways that different groups would suggest a solution? And then which one do you think is the right one? And why? And I think a really important part of this is, if you've done your homework, the perfect solution is very rare. If you don't think about it very robustly, you're going to know what the answer is pretty quickly and it's going to be easy. But if this is a complex problem, you've probably heard one of my favorite quotes from Thomas Sowell, the economist, is: There are no solutions, there are only tradeoffs.
So when you think about the multiple solutions you would have to this problem, where are those tradeoffs? And so which one do you think gives you the best performance for the least amount of effort, or the best performance that is consistent with your company culture, or the most effective long term solution because it's actually pragmatic enough that you can implement in a minute, maybe it gets you 80% of the way there.
But if it's relatively easy to implement, maybe that takes away the pain and actually gets you where you need to be in the last 20%. So thinking through those kinds of tradeoffs so that you can have an impact. You do it in a way that it's not just you telling people what the right answer is, but you've worked with others to really improve quality of life satisfaction with the work environment, and you've had a positive impact on how everybody involved in this process actually contributes. And you've learned some things along the way.
Andi Simon: When you do come to a decision full of the paradox of choice that Barry Schwartz writes about, where you end up feeling like, "If I had just a little more time, I can figure out a little bit better decision. And so I won't decide now, because the abundance of options are overwhelming. So why decide because whatever I decide won't be right."
Anyhow, I love what goes on in the internet world where you buy stuff more than you need, and probably test different sizes. And then you send most of it back. And then you go back on to see if you could have gotten it cheaper someplace else. And the shopping experience is a pretty complicated decision process at times, where you're never convinced that your decision was the right one. It was just one of those options, and you had to finally decide.
But the world has so many options today that sometimes you feel stalled or stuck trying to figure out which one will my boss like? Or which one will I have the least problem doing or which one's going to be the most complicated or the most simple? And I do think his opinion is correct, that it's just too many options. And how do we decide? What did you learn?
Christina Sistrunk: Well, I think I learned a couple of things. One is, the more complicated your solution is, the less likely it is to succeed. And even if you can implement it, you probably can't sustain it because other things will come along to draw attention. So I have learned to really think about it, but if we go ahead and implement this, how dramatically is it going to change how we work? And how much energy is it going to take to keep this solution in place right over time? And so I think a little pragmatically, and if you've got, you know, an equal chance of being successful, err on the side of the simpler solution.
You know, I think the other advantage to that is that, if you think you can get a good way down the road, with a pretty simple solution that's easy to sustain, go ahead, do that. You'll learn a few more things in that process. Maybe then you have to tweak a few things on the back end. But it's much easier than trying to implement something wholescale that maybe you think was perfect but not very pragmatic.
And so part of it is knowing the organization, part of it is knowing the resources that are available. Even those questions about why are you solving it and why are you solving it now will help direct you to know what that right answer is, as you as you measure some of those tradeoffs. There may be something just so critical that you're working on that actually the whole company needs to reoriented to either capture that opportunity or prevent that risk from being actualized. There are times like that but they're very few and far between day to day.
Andi Simon: Yeah, you're sort of on the edge and moving, now don't let the perfect get in the way of the good. How do you look to the edges, as opposed to trying to create a whole new sandbox? That's often what I find as I'm working. So as you know, I'm a corporate anthropologist, and I work with organizations that need or want to change.
And as I'm listening to you, I'm saying, you have a couple of clients who are at a point in their growth where growth has stalled. And these are strange times. And so the question becomes, do I fix what I have now so I can do better at it? Or do I try to move it into new market spaces in different fashion? Or change the sales story? Or what do I do to accelerate growth again, united?
And those are not small questions, because usually the trend lines have been going along, and then all of a sudden, they're in the wrong direction. We worked with one university that went from 12,000 students to 8000. And I said, when are you going to call us? I mean, that was the wrong direction. There are some timelines where you have to reinvent what you're doing. But often, you just have to be on the edges trying to see what's possible through a fresh lens so that you can do better.
Christina Sistrunk: Well, and I think that's the real key. So, you know, I've seen examples in the course of my career where people want to adopt a new strategy and it's all going to be hearts and flowers, and everything's a hockey stick to the right. We just go do this and magic will happen. But you're not asking the tough questions about, well, what are our underlying capabilities? So is there a match here, if you only have to build one or two new capabilities? That's serious, but doable.
If you focus on it, and you really think strategically and resource strategically to build those capabilities, but if what you're trying to create actually requires the culture of the company to be different, your talent pool to be completely different, and requires several capabilities that you don't currently have, you may be able to draw a plan out that in theory looks great, but your chances of actually delivering that are pretty darn slim.
So, you know, again, I haven't found a formula, but I do think it's about what you pragmatically think about. How much change can your organization handle? Some organizations are very comfortable with a high pace of change, and some aren't. So if you really need to make a change, maybe part of that is really recognizing what you have to do to start to build a level of resilience and comfort with change in your organization that doesn't exist but that will absolutely derail what you're trying to do if you don't take that head on.
And it does mean, you have to engage with your leaders differently. You have to bring in some opportunities to develop them differently. And in some cases, you may find that you've got some leaders that were great for the journey you were on before, but maybe they're not in the right role anymore. Or maybe this organization where it's headed may not even be where they want to go. And just being honest with that, treating them respectfully in that space, but being willing if the right thing for your employees, your stakeholders, and your business is moving in a given direction, then everybody's got to get on board to help make that happen.
Andi Simon: I'm thinking about the enterprise agiltity conference, a global conference on building a culture for fast changing times. And the times are just moving very fast. They are and change fatigue is not uncommon. But people don't quite know how to change. And they haven't figured out how to put it into their happiness sphere. You know, it's a habit where they immediately can sort through the options available in a systematic fashion, and begin to be comfortable that the choices they make are small wins going somewhere. And it may not be enormous.
You don't always need a pandemic to change a little bit. I had a client who was giving remote work as a benefit to his employees before the pandemic. And now he has them all working remotely and can't get them to come back to the office. And I said, "Well, it was a benefit to them but now it's a penalty box. Now look how interesting the meaning of something has changed." So be careful how you interpret what the benefit is to somebody. How will you change them? But this is a fascinating conversation.
Christina, one of the things that you and I had chatted about was that the problems that you've learned to solve may or may not be in the toolkit or the interests of young people looking at the STEM industry, engineering, oil and gas, but anything in the science, technology, engineering, math, and even, you know, some people add the arts in there, because I do think creative arts are tied into how we think you're talking about creative problem solving. It's real, whole brain storytelling, really understanding. And once you understand that, it isn't a technical skill, it's a perception of reality that works.
How are you advising? What do you see, because there's so much literature on how women aren't sticking out in STEM. And so it's not a place where people of color find themselves comfortable, moving up through the hierarchy is difficult. But, part of your own mission now is to begin to identify these folks who may not want to move into this zone, but who really could find great gratification. What are your thoughts?
Christina Sistrunk: Well, you know, I just like to spend time talking with young people as I have the opportunity. This is part of problem solving, what are your real choices? Something that I learned a long time ago, and I try and encourage young people around this as well, is, early on, I think you've got to get really clear about whether that voice you're listening to is one that's based out of fear, or based in a place around the vision of what you're trying to create for your life and others. And I promise you, you will never reach your potential staying on what you see as the safe path. Right now, that doesn't mean you should be taking life threatening risks, but often, when we unpack what we see as risky, it's because it makes us uncomfortable.
But I have never learned anything, I have never grown in the course of my career, where it felt safe. I didn't know the answer when I started. It means sometimes you're going to, you know, you're going to scrape your knee and you're going to clean it up, you're going to put a Band-Aid on it, you're going to keep going and that's okay.
Andi Simon: But you have to say that many times. I love Oprah and her advocacy for small wins, because I preach the same. I say, you cannot turn a battleship with an oar. But you want to either do what you really want to do or find those small wins that move you forward so that you can learn what works and what doesn't without great risk, but enough risks so that you're testing and trying and learning. And these are all, you know, the whole world of mistake-ology, what you learn from making mistakes and that's a really big thought. So as you're working with these young folks, up and comers, what are you finding?
Christina Sistrunk: Well, you know, one thing that I'm finding is, I hate to say this, but I'm not sure that they're always getting good career counseling, which really disappoints me. So when I was high school age, as I mentioned, I didn't have a lot of resources at home helping to guide me. And even then, the guidance counselors that we had back then, I remember the one that I had to deal with telling me that, you know, nursing or teaching was a perfectly fine thing for me to consider, but why think about engineering? I guess I was so naive, that I didn't think that it was going to be an issue. Thankfully, I didn't see the risk there. And so that kind of propelled me forward.
But, part of that is really getting people to say, okay, so what are the real choices that intrigue you? And why? And how is that likely to play out in the quality of life that you're hoping to have? So I do think there's this mystique that all college degrees lead to a certain outcome and a certain lifestyle, which they do not.
To what extent are you a person that's really turned on by challenge? To what extent do you like to be comfortable or like to feel like you have mastered something? Those are important questions to ask because some fields are easier to do that in than others. But also, I think it's very legitimate to have real candid conversations with people and say, you know, if you go down this path, these are some of the life choices that you're going to face. And these are different life choices that you can be exposed to on a different path. And so how do you factor that in? Although you might be really passionate about this, does it lead you where you ultimately want to go 20 years from now, or 40 years from now?
I think it's Mark Cuban who talks about when he talks to young people, he says, if somebody is telling you to follow your passion, it's because they're already wealthy. I don't think that's entirely true. I can say I had the luxury to follow my passion, and I think a lot of people would have told me that there was not much chance of that becoming a reality for me, at different phases of my life. But I do think helping people see it's not necessarily a binary decision; there can be multiple places where you can be challenged, you can learn things, you can figure out a way to contribute. And some of them will open up different kinds of financial and quality of life issues for you than others will.
And I think it's just about being pragmatic about how you make those choices. And not saying I've got to be miserable, or I can be happy, or I'm only passionate about that. Well, why are you passionate about that? Are there some other fields maybe that can give you more of the total package that you want in your life that you might also feel passionate about?
Andi Simon: You know, it's interesting, because I'm helping one woman, and she has a nice job, but she doesn't get the kind of gratification out of it she thinks she should, although I'm not quite sure what she thinks she should. You know, it's sort of like, what would you define to be the right kind of work that you can do? You can raise your two children, you're making a nice living, you've got enough flexibility so that you don't need to be in the office all the time, you're really in control. You're almost a freelancer without calling it that and you got good benefits. So tell me what would be a replacement part for this that would raise you to the next level, what's missing?
And I have a hunch what's missing is somebody acknowledging what she's doing and giving her a sense that she has a good purpose there or something that gives it more than just tactical and practical, but something that matters, and she matters to them in some fashion. And I do think flexibility is in isolation. You know, and I often laugh because we are enjoying this flexibility, but solitary confinement in prison is the worst place to be. And I'm not convinced that is in creating these kinds of reactions. Your thoughts?
Christina Sistrunk: Well, I even frame it a little differently. I mean, it's great. A work environment anticipates what you need, and gives you what you need. In all honesty, I can tell you that certainly is often not the case in the course of my career. And I will say at one point, I was advised by someone who was a mentor of mine, and who I have just a ton of respect for, and he basically only had time to have a very short conversation with me and told me to apply for a job that I did not want at all. He told me it was an IQ test, that for this job, this is what you need to do. It was the lowest job on the list that I could have thought of. Even though it was going to be a big promotion for me, I just didn't want it.
So I went home for a couple of days saying, how might I change this job so that I would want it and so it would be a job that I would find to be highly rewarding? And when I sat down and had a conversation with the hiring manager, I said, "Look, if you want me to do the job the way it has always been done, please don't put me in it because I will be miserable and you will be miserable. But here's my vision for what I could do in this role, and why I think it makes sense to approach the role this way. And, you know, this is what I think I could add, how I could add value by doing it in this way and why it would be important to do so," and I got the job. And in fact, it was one of the best jobs I ever had. I learned so much and I learned about a different part of the business and in different parts of the world.
I mean, I think often it's almost like, what is it about that job? And there's white space in every single job I've ever had, and I think that most people have had. Where's the boundary that you want to just nudge? Because it will make you actually not just more satisfied, but probably more productive. And sometimes what that looks like for people is using some of that flexibility maybe to take some of your skills and work in another area where you feel passionate. It may be at a nonprofit that you actually can do that. And that satisfaction is about more than just work. It's about the totality of your life. How does it line up with your values? What about family and friends? What about your spirituality? What about causes that you feel passionate about and want to contribute to? It covers a lot of the landscape.
I've never been at a point in my life where I could tick all the boxes on all those and say it's all perfect at this moment in time. So it's a bit fluid, and it goes back and forth. But how do you optimize across all of that to give you the quality of life that you want to live, and it makes you feel good about the conscious choices you've made?
Andi Simon: Yes, balance those things. And every day is a gift. Christina, this has been absolutely wonderful. We can actually keep going, but we can't. So I'm going to ask you for only one thing for our audience not to forget, because I think they've heard so many rich perspectives on life, on the problems that we face, in the work/non-work life. They're equally relevant here. But also that your lessons learned over your career that are now setting you up for the next phase where you want to give back in many different ways, to help people soar who are really on the brink, like I am about what comes next...one thing you want them to remember.
Christina Sistrunk: So I really think that, if you've got an area that you see as a problem or an opportunity, be really clear with yourself in terms of what those choices are. And why you might make them and challenge yourself before you just automatically go down a path...to really, perhaps, get some other inputs to help you think through what are some different choices. Make sure you recognize that we always have choices. Now, we may not like some of them, or we may like some of them less than others, which only means that they are right.
We always have a choice. It is very rare for human beings to be in a situation where they have no choices to make, and it's about that conscious choice that over time actually leads to the quality of life that you can have. And I think it's a really important way when you recognize this to empower yourself, no matter where you are in your journey. And it is about staying on that journey, continuing to learn, continuing to make good choices. And moving forward. It's your journey.
Andi Simon: The other part is that you really don't know what's a good choice or a bad choice 'til after the choice. And I was reading something the other day and the comment was, Once something has happened, the best thing you can do is just let it happen. Because you can't go backwards and change what's happened. But the best thing you can begin to do is learn something from it, move forward past it, and think about what comes next, because that's all we can do.
Christina Sistrunk: I would challenge that. I think the other thing is giving yourself enough grace to say, did I make the best choice I could with what I knew at the time?
Andi Simon: That's a very powerful point: what I knew at the time. We're not clairvoyant, no, but the other part of it is, and then I will wrap up, is that what you hear isn't necessarily what someone else said, or what they meant. But it is what you heard. And I can't tell you how often I work with my clients, my coaching clients, about what they really mean as opposed to what you think you heard and wanted from me. Because that's where the rubs come, and sometimes the tensions as well.
This has been such fun to my listeners in my audience. Thank you for joining us today. Christina Sistrunk has been with us and I know you're going to have lots of questions so send them along to info@Andisimon.com. Christina, if they want to reach you, I know you're building your website, but what would be a good email and we will put that on the blog as well.
Christina Sistrunk: Okay, it is sistrunk1984@gmail.com.
Andi Simon: That's perfect. And, I promise you, she will get back to you if you have these great questions or ideas where you want some coaching or mentoring. Now for all of our listeners, remember, both my books are available on Amazon. And I'm always very excited to hear your comments on Amazon. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business has been an award winning best seller, and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is how a little anthropology can help your business grow, which is what we do.
So thank you for joining us today. All of my listeners have propelled us to be among the top 5% of global podcasts. That is truly an honor. And so whoever is listening, share it away. And you're going to want to share today's talk with people who you work with or you live with to listen about how to solve these complex problems because they're all around us. And in times that are fast changing like they are, we need room for some skills and a mindset. And in some ways, this is a state of mind as opposed to stuff. It's not a toolkit, but it is a way of thinking. Christina, thanks again for coming.
Christina Sistrunk: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this. This is a highlight of my afternoon. Thank you.
Andi Simon: You're welcome. Bye bye, everybody. Thanks for coming to On the Brink.
Hear how to identify your values and live them every day
Today you will meet Shayna Bergman, a terrific executive leadership coach with big ideas to help you find your way during these challenging times of change. Her goal is to empower you to unlock your personal potential. Shayna specializes in helping people achieve deeper meaning and fulfillment in their personal and professional lives through authentic leadership and clarity of purpose. She believes, as do I, that you have to have a purpose-driven life. There has to be something that really motivates and drives you, a North Star. Need help finding yours? Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
What is the purpose that you're living toward?
With a focus on parents in executive and leadership positions, Shayna challenges her clients to look deeply at themselves by reflecting on their values, dreams, limiting beliefs and inner critics. She then helps them create an action plan that inspires breakthroughs and leads to sustainable change. Shayna’s most successful clients are those who are dedicated to evolving their best selves and fostering that growth in others.
You can connect with Shayna on LinkedIn or her website.
For more guidance on living a purpose-driven life, try these:
- Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose
- Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You?
- Podcast: Linda Vettrus-Nichols—Challenged? Stuck? What If You Are In Control Of Yourself?
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. And as you know, I'm your host and your guide. I'm also an author of two award winning books, and you might want to read them to learn more about how I help people change. My podcast, though, is dedicated to bringing you very interesting people, people who are going to help you do what I want you to do: see, feel and think in new ways because that's the only way you change. You decide with your eyes and your heart, so how do they make you feel? And if they make you feel really cool, you're going to listen carefully and begin to think about how this person can help me change. Change is something your brain hates, trust me.
So today I have Shayna Bergman with us. And Shayna is an absolutely wonderful woman who's here to help you understand how to balance life. I'm not going to talk about work-life balance. The pandemic has told us there is no thing called work-life balance. That's just life. And we work in it and we take care of family with it and we take care of parents with it. Let me read her resume a little bit and then she'll tell you about her story.
Shana is a passionate, results-oriented coach who empowers motivated individuals to unlock their potential. She has a proven track record of helping people achieve deeper meaning and fulfillment in their personal and professional lives. She does it through authentic leadership and clarity of purpose. We're going to talk a lot about a purpose-driven life today. Because at the end of the day, it probably should be the first thing you think about.
With a focus on executive and leadership positions, Shana challenges her clients to look deeply at themselves by reflecting on their values, their dreams, and limiting their beliefs and inner critics. You know who's talking to you. Remember, your brain runs faster. You're thinking all the time, you're thinking all night long. And then you have a conversation. It wasn't what you were thinking anyhow, and what happens next? She challenges her clients to really look deeply at themselves. And that's what we're going to do today.
She helps them create an action plan that inspires breakthroughs, and leads to sustainable change. And she and I both know that's not easy. That's about all I'm going to share with you about Shayna because I want her to tell you her story and it is much richer than anything I can read. And then we're going to get into what she does to help you, parents, or even those prospective parents to understand how to balance life and have one that fulfills you, at the same time you have many of the things that you think are important, and don't ditch one for another. And make sure you have the right room and collaborators, partners to help you get there. Shayna, thank you for being with me today.
Shayna Bergman: Thanks for having me on, Andi.
Andi Simon: Can you tell our listeners and our viewers who Shayna is, what's your journey been like?
Shayna Bergman: Yes, so my journey toward this life started at a very early age, earlier than most people probably could even guess. And it started when I was three years old. And the reason it started when I was three is because my parents used to take me and my brother on road trips in our 1985 Oldsmobile station wagon. And we'd be sitting in the car, and I would want to be listening to Raffi, the children's singer who used to sing "Baby Beluga," and instead, my parents would be listening to Tony Robbins. And they were listening to Tony Robbins because they were building a dental practice and they really found him to be quite motivational.
So from a very, very early age, I was hearing all about motivation and believing in yourself and how we can get in our own way. And after hearing those tapes at the time, and then hearing the CDs through the years, and then hearing my parents' dinner table conversation, I really found great passion and understanding how people ticked and how they got in their way of really reaching their fullest potential. And so I took a journey toward the side of HR. And I figured, well, if I could, if I believe in this, I could really help people from the side of human resources.
And so I went to GW to get my bachelor's degree in communications with a focus on organizational sciences and French. I then transitioned to NYU for my masters where I got my HR leadership management and development degree with a focus and executive coaching. And I was working in the world of corporations, everything from startups to multi-billion dollar companies.
In that way, I was able to learn how I could help and motivate people from the side of human resources and being a strategic business partner. And yet I knew still that there was more I had in me that I hadn't yet tapped into and I knew I wanted to go the route of executive and leadership coaching. And I also knew I needed to have the experience that I had lived to have the ability to talk to my clients head-to-head to really understand what it was that they're going through and to say I've lived it myself.
So, I eventually sort of woke up to "the time is now" and I went and got my certification in executive leadership coaching, as well as in core dynamics and leadership focus, and basically transitioned that into having my own practice. And so now, I work one-on-one with leaders. I do workshops, I do podcasts and I speak. And that's really sort of how I got to where I am now. And being able to partner with parents who are in executive and leadership roles.
Andi Simon: I can hear a little Tony Robbins still coming through.
Shayna Bergman: There's probably a lot of that. Yeah, I think so.
Andi Simon: Because you know, the stories that we hear, change our minds, and even as a child, they were forming in your mind view of the world, and how to mobilize it, and inspire it and succeed within it. And it's a very interesting history that you have. And I can't tell you how many women told me their most important person in their lives was their mother, and the stories that she told.
But as you're thinking about this, you became who you are. And that served as a foundation for helping others. Where are women today, as we come out of the pandemic? Are you seeing the patterns changing? Are the challenges that your clients and others listening here are facing, different? I mean, I can truly share mine, but I'd love you to share what you're seeing, and how can that help them begin to understand that the times have changed? We're not going back to what it was. You might have liked it, but you don't remember it, really. And now you're going to try and figure out what's next and what is my purpose. What do you see?
Shayna Bergman: Yeah, so I think that there's been an awakening. I think during the pandemic, people, women, mothers in particular, as they were schooling their children, changing diapers, leading meetings, whatever it is that they're doing, I think that they realized that something's got to give, and that the way that we were living life before is going to lead to burnout. It's living a life that somebody else has laid out for you, and not necessarily the life that maybe they wanted. And I lived that myself during the pandemic. So I know that story very well.
And yet, I think that while that awakening happened, I am now seeing with my clients this return to a little bit of what was its expectations to be back in the office, expectations to be burning the midnight oil, expectations to be connected all the time because we can. And so I think that the tension that was there pre-pandemic escalated to an awareness during the pandemic. And I think now it's reached an all-time high, where people are now really saying, something's gotta give.
And so I think people now have a chance to change the trajectory of their lives. We wake up every day with a choice. And I think people are realizing that they have that with them. And I think, in some cases, that's very scary. And they're trying to figure out, what do I do with all these feelings that I'm having, that I was sort of on this hamster wheel before and now I'm realizing I have a chance to step off. What do I do with that?
Andi Simon: Well that requires us to take a look in the mirror and begin to ask, who am I now, and what is my identity? It's a journey. And so we made it through the pandemic, hopefully, I hope. And now we're looking at others pulling us back to what they thought was the way to be. We have some choices and now we have the dilemma of the paradox of choice. Barry Schwartz wrote a great book on the paradox of choice. And that too many choices make us immobilized. We can't make any choices. So do you have a process to help people begin to sort out the options and how to make the right choices for the next stage? Is there a framework or is it just a hope?
Shayna Bergman: Yeah, that's a great question. And I love the book, The Paradox of Choice. I love that book. It was so before its time. So it was better. So here's what I would say: Yes, I have a framework. And it also differs from person to person. Here's where I would say I go generally. So I think it's important to take a person and help them understand where am I today. What is it that I'm dealing with? What am I experiencing? What is and isn't working? What are the things that I bring to the table that I want more of? What do I want to be saying yes to and where can I be saying no? What are the obstacles and the roadblocks that are getting in my way on a regular basis?
So I think that's first. I think, second is figuring out where I want to go. What am I looking for? That's different, and I think a lot of people think they want more, they want bigger, they want better. And I think a lot of people now, post-pandemic, realize that maybe that's not quite the perspective they want to have. Maybe it's just different and different is better. And so it's really figuring out, and I think of it like a map, where am I today? Where do I want to go? And then we discuss how we are going to get there.
And that is the piece that's highly customizable and varies person to person. Because there are some people who are ready to jump, they don't care what risks they're going to take. They just know that they want to make a change, and they want somebody to hold their hand as they jump out of the plane. And then I have other people without a parachute. And I have a lot of people that say, No, no, please, I don't want to do it, I'm not ready. But they know something has to happen. And so for those people, we spend a lot more time peeling back the onion, and really trying to get at the root of what's getting in the way.
And there are all kinds of things that get in our way, whether it's the limiting beliefs we have, whether it's the stories we're telling ourselves, whether it's the things that we interpret a certain way or maybe just our perspective, or maybe it's the inner critic that we have. But this is what creates obstacles and keeps us stuck. And now we can wish and hope that some stars are going to fall upon us and things are going to change. And maybe that happens once in a blue moon, but, the reality is, things aren't going to change unless you start to take bold action. And sometimes it's imperfect action. But without that, you're not going to change at all.
Andi Simon: So I'm a corporate anthropologist and a culture change expert, as I tell my listeners, who specializes in helping organizations and the people inside them change. And whether it's an organization or an individual, the brain hates me. It creates all kinds of cortisol, the amygdala hijacks new ideas, even if the old ones aren't working. And I say that to our listeners so that you understand, it's not personal. Your human evolution has allowed you to thrive because of the stories that are in your mind that you believe to be your truth. It's an illusion of what's real. But once you have them in there, that's the way it is now, you're not happy.
Shayna is working with you saying, what do you want more of or less of, and you know it, but you need a process or a framework to begin to take a look at what makes you high while shallow, so that you have a process for beginning to think about what you're going to do less, what you're never going to change, what you're going to stop, and what you're going to start, which is the most off-putting part. I'm not going to say it's scary, but it's unfamiliar.
And that's where I love Oprah and her small wins, a step at a time, and that's where you begin to try things, test them. You're going to have to break old stories and create new ones. And it becomes a real good thing to have a coach to help you think out loud. How do you first make them take a look at who they are? Can you share a little bit more about what happens next?
Shayna Bergman: Yes, absolutely. And I'll talk a little bit more about that first piece, because I do something that's really special. I do what's called the ELA, the Energy Leadership Index Assessment. And it's basically a test that allows somebody, if they answer questions truthfully, to understand what their energy is like on a regular day. So what happens to their engagement, what happens to their motivation, what happens to how they show up day to day when the day is good, and things are going in their favor. And then it also spits out basically what happens to them when they're stressed on a bad day, and how their motivation and their engagement and how they show up is impacted when under stress.
And it's a starting point for us, especially because people are not always self-aware. Some are but not everybody. But it's a starting point for us to have a conversation around what works for you. And then, how are you hijacked. How was your brain hijacked? And everybody is different, everybody's test comes out different, but it creates a conversation. And what it also does is, it creates education and a language for me and my clients to share, where basically we discuss the seven levels of energy, that they have one being sort of the lowest level of energy that's not working for you where you're in high stress, all the way up to the seventh level of energy, which we would consider to be extremely high consciousness, high choice.
And it allows us to be able to have this awareness of what's happening to me in this particular situation, and what level am I at? What level do I want to be at? And what is it going to take to get there? And so it really breaks down in a much more tangible way the steps that somebody can start to take, speaking to the small steps that you just mentioned, that Oprah talks about.
And you know, a journey begins with a single step, that concept for them to understand how they can safely dip their toe into something that might feel a little bit new and a little bit scary. And as you know from studies of the brain, our brains have deep grooves that are habits. That's how we react and how we respond to certain situations.
And it takes those little minute tiny steps time after time after time to start to create a new groove in the brain. It's like building muscle. You don't go lifting 500 pounds, you start with one pound and you lift one pound until that feels lighter. And then you go to two pounds. I do the same thing with my clients, it's little steps. And like I said, some make bigger leaps than others in different amounts of time. It varies across the board. But whatever it is, is normal for you. It's not good or bad. It's normal.
Andi Simon: Yeah, it's interesting because in so many ways, women have achieved enormous success. You know, 60% of college graduates are women, more than half the doctors are women, half of dentists are women. 65% of the accountants are women. 40% of the attorneys are women. I could go on. We haven't quite moved up into the C-suite or into the partnership yet. And in some places, the women are the worker bees, while the men are the managers, I get that. On the other hand, a guide path to a happy life has been missing.
And for both my clients and yours, there's no college degree to a happy life. There's no really early training on how to assess what's working and what is not. And consequently, we get these words like burnout, depression, anxiety, the amount of pills that are taken to quiet the mind, that's telling you, this isn't where you should be. But, there's no training on how to be.
And I actually met a guy who's a vigorous and happy coach. And he has a book, So I'm Happiness. I said, oh my goodness, we have to actually teach happiness. Will we know it when we find it?
In a way, as you're guiding the folks, do they go through a transformation? I couldn't agree with you more. You know, our brains are habit driven. And they're perfectly happy doing the old habits in a very efficient way, and they really don't want to learn something new. But as you're rooming with them, when do they have that epiphany I always think of that aha moment when they go, "Ah, that's what's going to work." I love it when they do it!
Shayna Bergman: I do love those aha breakthrough moments. And I think those are sparks of joy. Because we are also our bodies. And you know, being human, we do love development. We love changing. We love evolution, that's something that we seek. And it is those little sparks, this little "A-ha!" that creates that growth like, "Ooh, I learned something new. I succeeded at something," big or small.
And I really try to stop and celebrate those moments with my clients when they have that realization, or they did something that felt bold, to let them know, Yes, you can do it. And you can keep going. And sometimes it takes us sort of looking backwards and saying, Well, when have you done something like that in the past? Take me through that. And a lot of times, we forget that we've overcome big barriers and challenges before, maybe we didn't see it that way. We didn't think about it. But some of the work I do with my clients is realizing you've actually done this before. So you can do it again. And I think it's through that journey, that some of that joy starts to come out a little bit in those moments of growth.
And the growth happens in the times of being uncomfortable. It doesn't happen when things are status quo. You know, yes, there's joy and comfort. There's joy in knowing what you can expect. But the excitement comes when there's something new that's happening. And I like to think about it almost like a roller coaster. It's like, you have that steady climb upwards, and you're nervous about what is going to be on the other side. And then there's joy, and there's laughter as you're taking the twists and turns and the ups and the downs. That is part of the experience. And you and I really believe you can't have joy without moments of sadness. I think the two have to go hand in hand in order to be able to experience them. And I think they all serve a purpose.
And so if you think about touching a hot stove, it hurts. And that makes you move your hand. It's the same thing when you have sadness, or you have anger or you have frustration, that emotion is giving you a cue to know what to do next. And so I think that all of those things serve in some way, but it's just learning how to read them and how to know what to do with them.
Andi Simon: It's a whole language and it's so fascinating. I was interviewing someone earlier today. We're writing my third book, and it's called Women Mean Business. And that should come out September 2023. But in that interview, she made a good point: Watch out for the balance. It's the imbalance that propels you forward. And that's what you're saying. Because when everything seems fine, the status quo is good. You are going to become complacent. And that complacency is going to keep you from seeing what's possible, and where you're going.
Now, you and I could talk a great deal about this. I want to talk more about purpose and a purpose-driven life, purpose-driven companies. It's become almost a cliche, but I think it is an extremely important and missing part of having a life worth living. What do you see?
Shayna Bergman: Yeah, I totally agree. And I know having come from the last company I was at, especially as we're hiring and bringing in new people, we're seeing, especially with this generation, this desire not to just work and make money, but to do something that is for a bigger purpose for the greater good. This warms my heart, because I think that has been lacking where everything has been only bottom line driven. And yes, that is a component of business, right? But if you know that there's some greater purpose to what it is that you're doing and what your company is doing, I think it does create this feeling of fulfillment and that there is more to your life.
But I do believe you have to have a purpose-driven life. There has to be something that really motivates and drives you. And I think a lot of people will go back to the hamster wheel. They're on this hamster wheel, and they don't even know what it is that they care about anymore because they're going through the motions. To partner with somebody, with a coach in particular, who's going to ask you powerful questions that allow you to reflect and to really touch base with what it is that you care about deeply, what your values are, what drives you, what gets you out of bed in the morning, to me, that is what creates that life of fulfillment and that life of purpose.
But so many of us have just gotten caught up and wake up, go to work, get the kids fed, give them a bath, get to bed, do it again the next day, that we've lost sight of what that is. And so I think it's got to be at the forefront of what it is that you're doing and who you are. And to me, that's the North Star. That's how you decide.
Everything that you do in your life is in my mind living toward whatever my particular purpose is, and maybe it changes, but to not have anything that you're working for and just to be getting to the next day, which I hear a lot of — I just want to get to the next day — that's not going to be a life of fulfillment.
Andi Simon: Well, it's also not a life worth living. You're right. But there's also one other part to that. And that's self-care. And they're connected. I do think that if you don't take care of yourself, then you can't really either fulfill your purpose or take care of others. And our job is so much of caretakers. Your thoughts on self-care?
Shayna Bergman: Yeah, so I have a saying that I like to share with people. I call it SCORE. So the S is for sunshine, so you have to get outside every day.
The C is for connection. So that means getting together with friends and family, connecting to other people is critical. In fact, the happiest places on Earth are places where people live in these tribal communities where there's a lot of connection. And that's a big piece of who they are.
The O is for oxygen. And so I say that in terms of breathing, meditating, taking a moment to have some peace and calm in your day, recognizing when you haven't been breathing deeply, and you're feeling stressed and tense and your shoulders are shrugged up. And just relaxing and taking a deep breath and what that does for you.
The R is for rehydrate. So make sure that you are drinking lots and lots of water and eating right.
And I call it SCORE, and it's how I keep score on the day. Did I do these basic things? And I think as silly as it sounds, we forget sometimes that the basics are what sets you up for the rest of it. And so if you've been sitting inside in a dark room all day and you haven't gotten outside, you've got to go get some sunshine. It will make you feel better, you will sleep better, it will regulate your biological needs. I mean, there's just a lot of things that need to happen that we forget to do because we're sacrificing our care for somebody else's checklist.
Andi Simon: And that makes it very difficult to be the kind of person that you really want to be and smile at the end of the day. It's interesting because with all of the smart, trained women, we're also watching them struggle with how to be smart about themselves and really have something, because what you say and how, like your parents and Tony Robbins, leave an impression on those children of yours, and even on your spouse or your parents or your friends.
Remember, the stories we tell change the story in the minds of those hearing them. And they evolve and you don't realize it but you're changing something that's then passed on to the next generation. And when I was teasing Shayna that she sounds a little like Tony Robbins, it becomes part of your story and what you hear, and you've got this great movie going on in your head. Be intentional about it. Think carefully about the curiosity that you need, the self-care that you've got, it's really an important time to take care of you and it's okay to do that. It's not terrible, and you're not broken. You're just on to the next phase. And it's not that you're sick or you need pills, it's now you need a purpose and you need a guide to help you get going. This has been so fun. Some last thoughts: two or three things you want us not to forget, and how can people reach you?
Shayna Bergman: So the first thing I would say is remember SCORE. I think that is the basis of making sure that every day is a great day. You really have to do the basics. And to your point about self-care, it starts right there. I think second is, figure out what is your North Star. What is the purpose that you're living toward? What are your values, and I do a lot of work with my clients to uncover really what their values are, and how they're living them on a day to day basis. And sometimes those things are mismatched.
And then the third thing is, I'm going to make a book recommendation, because it's a book that changed my life. And that is the book Brave, Not Perfect by Reshma Saujani, who is the woman who founded Girls Who Code and you probably see her all over the place now. But it specifically speaks to women and how we are raised and how that has impacted how we're able to live our lives and take bold risks. And to me that was sort of the book that launched this part of my career and this part of my journey, and so I really recommend it.
And then in terms of how to reach me, you can find me at Shaynabergman.com. You can also find me at Shayna Bergman Coaching, both on Facebook and on Instagram. And if you want to email me to talk more, I am at Shayna@Shaynabergman.com.
Andi Simon: And I have a hunch that our viewers and our listeners are going to say, Hmm, what am I going to do more and less of? And how am I going to find my North Star so I can have a life worth living. And it's never too late to start, so don't wait too long to think about it.
And now, I'm going to say goodbye to our audience because I think we've had a great conversation today. And I always love these conversations. And remember my books: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business are all on Amazon. And they await you with great joy. There is even an audible I did myself and the other one I had someone else do, but they're fun to listen to while you're driving. And I think people are going back to that commute, which is sort of like, wow, I remember those times.
Well, as you're thinking, send me your emails. I get lots and lots of emails from people who said, "I listened, I loved it, and here's someone else you should interview because I want to hear what they have to say." So send them along. It's info@Andisimon.com. It'll all be on the blog that we produce when we put this out. So thanks again, Shayna. Thank you so much for being with me. It's been such fun.
Hear why it's so crucial for success to build effective teams
My guest today is a remarkable individual, Mark Samuel, who's now written seven business books. I interviewed Mark back in June of 2019 and thought he had such a powerful message about how to get people to change, even when they really don't want to, that I had him back. Today's podcast is about his most recent book, Reimagine Teams: The Missing Piece in Team Building to Achieve Breakthrough Results. Our discussion focuses on the vital role of accountability, which makes teams work or fail. With over 30 years' experience in the business world, Mark is a transformative leader, having helped hundreds of companies overcome stagnation, transform their businesses, and eliminate toxic work cultures to increase profits, morale and customer experience. Does your culture need an overhaul? Be sure to listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
How do you rebuild your company culture as we come out of the pandemic?
In our podcast, Mark and I had a wonderful time discussing our shared interest in the success of companies working together in what we all call "teams." But teams, teaming and team development are being rethought today as our workplaces and work styles change.
These are very fast-changing times. I used to tell my clients, if they wanted to change, have a crisis or create one, and I never wanted to see a crisis like we're coming out of, but we're coming out of it. The problem is that people are unsettled as we come out of the post-pandemic period; the old habits are gone. They don't quite know what's going on. They were attached to what they knew before the pandemic.
Now they have become adjusted to the post-pandemic workplace. And looking ahead, they don't know what's coming. They want to go back, but you can't go back. So how do we go forward? Often a business leader's solution is to assemble the team. But what type of team? And how should it perform as business leaders rebuild the culture for the post-pandemic phase?
Bringing about real changes that last through team-building
As an internationally sought-after speaker and consultant for his B STATE methodology (Bold Leadership, Brave Culture, Breakthrough Results), Mark trains leaders on implementing sustainable changes.
As he shares in our podcast, "For decades, corporate team building has consisted of style inventories, communication skill building, and teamwork games like ropes courses, trust falls, and escape rooms. While these activities might bring a team closer together as friends and are certainly fun, they have little to do with building job-related teamwork."
His message for us: Accountability. Organizations have become accountable just for activity, getting things done, doing things, rather than the outcome of what we are trying to accomplish by the doing of it. You must have teams and they must be accountable. And building effective teams requires practice at being a team. Just like sports teams and music groups which practice what they're going to perform, business teams must practice their performance as a team, not just as a group of individuals trying to get along.
After listening to this interview, you'll come away understanding how the old legacies hold us back from success, such as siloed departments, measurements and assessments that miss the mark, and outdated teamwork exercises that don't translate back to the workplace. Teams should work seamlessly toward common goals, and Mark tells us how.
You can connect with Mark on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, or his websites BState.com or MarkSamuel.com. Or you can email him at marks@impaqcorp.com.
For a deeper dive into how to achieve culture change, we recommend these:
- Blog: How's Your Culture? Doing Fine Or In Drastic Need Of An Overhaul?
- Podcast: Jacqueline Kibler—Want To Grow? Take A Good Hard Look At Your Culture
- Podcast: Mike Scott—Creating A Culture Of Accountability
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. As you know, I'm your host and your guide, and my job is to get you off the brink. I love to go looking for people who are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. Our job is to help you soar again; that's often difficult in fast changing-times. These are very fast-changing times. I used to tell my clients, because I specialize in helping organizations that need to change or adapt to change, I used to say that if you want to change, have a crisis or create one. I never wanted to see a crisis like we're coming out of, but we're coming out of it.
The problem as we come out of the post-pandemic period is that people are unsettled, their habits are gone. They don't quite know what's going on. They were attached to what they knew and they don't know what's coming next. They want to go back, but you can't go back. So how do we go forward? And often the solution is to assemble the team. The team can take us and the leader can manage that team better.
So today I'm going to bring in Mark Samuel who's now written six books on teams. And we're going to talk about lots of things. So I'm going to tell you a little bit about his newest book, Reimagine Teams: The Missing Piece in Team Building to Achieve Breakthrough Results, a pretty cover. And it's not that big, so you can actually read it. But what's really more important is what he's going to help you understand a little bit about.
He's the founder and CEO of Impact, served as a thought leader for developing accountable leaders and creating clinical organizations. That word accountable should not be underestimated. He's done it for over 35 years. The author of five books, as I mentioned, the bestselling B State: A New Roadmap for Bold Leadership, Brave Culture and Breakthrough Results. This book is written with Sarah Samuel, a writer and copy editor for Impact. And he may tell you a little bit about who Sarah is.
But this is a time for us to think in new ways about what we've always assumed. So I want you to think about your team. What teams do you belong to in your organization outside of the organization? Think about what you did as a kid growing up. Did you play on the baseball team? The kickball team? What was the team and why was it important?
And now I'm going to introduce you to Mark Samuel who I'm going to ask to tell you about his own journey so you know who he is. And then we'll get to the teaming and what he's doing now to reimagine teams. Mark, who are you? What's your journey?
Mark Samuel: Well, thanks, Andi. That was a wonderful introduction. And you're so spot on around talking about change. My background is that I came from teams, in a sense. I mean, I started on baseball teams, and I went to music groups, then my daughter was involved with acting and that I looked at as a team. So I've had all these experiences with teams. And then when I got into graduate school, my focus was on teams. I was taught by one of the top professors, Dr. Newton Margulies from UC Irvine. He was a practitioner, not just a theorist. So he was excellent at building teams and was wonderful.
But what I discovered along the way, on my journey and my path, was that the ways that I was taught to build teams in school and university actually didn't work as well as expected, and that's when I had to relook and reimagine what a team is all about. And that's when I drew upon my sports, and my music background.
Andi Simon: The epiphany that you had, as you write about it, is important to share. How do we have an epiphany, an aha moment, where we're not going to do more of the same because it's not working? But what could work? What would you see? So tell the listener or the viewer what happened to make you say, Stop, this is an old way of doing things. It's not working anymore. But what does work? What was the moment?
Mark Samuel: Well, it was a very distinct moment where I was getting great evaluations on my team building. I had just worked with an executive team and came back three months later to meet with the CEO. As I'm going down the hall, I'm seeing people that were on the team, the other executives, and they're literally coming up and hugging me and saying, "That was wonderful. I had the best experience. It was so good. It changed my life."
My head is getting bigger. I was quite young at the time and I'm feeling just on top of the world. And then I asked a very innocent question, which is, "Oh, and how's the team doing?" And they go, "Oh, well, the team is just as dysfunctional as it ever was. But boy, it was a great experience for me, and everyone loved your session."
Literally, my heart just stopped. Like, I literally became so discouraged and depressed in that moment. I was in shock. And again, as young as I was at that time, for me, it was, if I'm not going to be effective at what I'm doing, then I'm getting out of this. I don't belong in this business if I can't get a better result. I really took it that seriously. And, you know, and again, I was glad that people got whatever value they did. But my purpose was building the team.
Andi Simon: Hold that thought for a moment because it is to build the team, but what you heard and saw was that the effectiveness of the team wasn't improving. They built a team that was still dysfunctional, but an interesting commentary on "Well done, but not right." And I have several leadership academies and I find it interesting because we're working on teams and teaming. But there's a mythology around a team about how you build it. And what works and doesn't work? What are we trying to achieve here? What did you discover?
Mark Samuel: I discovered that the focus on relationships were great, it certainly built better relationships. It didn't mean they were more effective as a team, and didn't mean that their execution as a team was any better. When execution breaks down, then eventually it's going to affect your relationships because you can't count on each other. That's the true meaning of accountability, and if you can't eventually trust it, you don't have relationship trust.
That's the thing about trust. That's so interesting. There's a relationship trust, which like, you can have dinner together, we can socialize together. But what's different is execution trust, where I can count on you to keep commitments, keep agreements, come through on time, communicate with me, include me in a decision that affects me. That's execution trust, very different than relationship trust.
Andi Simon: That it almost sounds abstract. It's so interesting because if it was a baseball team...we have been watching the Mets win. I'm willing to stay up till 10 o'clock at night to watch that team really team up. A little different, or a musical orchestra that plays great music. How do they all do that? Well, they do it as a team. So what goes on in business where we can't see or hear the music? Or see the hits? What is it that's so interesting about business, where we can talk about a team, but not very likely?
Mark Samuel: Oh, that's a great question. And there is one huge difference. Whether you're talking about sports, baseball, as an example, or music, the way we learn the team is on the field, not off the field. You’ve got to get on the field. Gotta get into a rehearsal hall, and it's playing with each other that actually not only builds the execution, but also builds the relationships because we're working together and communicating. But it's real time, real life. It's not, "Oh, let's talk about the theory of communicating." We're actually having to communicate to play with each other. And we don't do that in organizations.
Organizations will tell you we don't have downtime. We're always in the game. We don't have that off time. And I'm saying, "What do you think you're doing in meetings? Yes. Meetings. You're not serving customers?" "Meetings? Oh, I know what we're doing. We're talking about status updates, sharing information." But why aren't we practicing our execution in our meetings by surfacing and solving problems, making decisions, moving things forward, talking about what didn't work, just the same way as we would do that in a music group or athletic team?
Andi Simon: So in a sense, metaphorically, not necessarily, in fact, and whether it's remote or in person, asynchronous or otherwise, that gathering of time has to have a new purpose. It isn't simply to gather. When I joined Montefiore Medical Center as an executive, a long time ago, I was fascinated because I came out of banking. And in financial services, I'm not quite sure the meetings had more purpose, but we did have an agenda and we usually had takeaways and some things that we were going to do, but in healthcare, they just attended and the meeting had no agenda and no takeaways. And I left wondering, "What is my purpose to be there? And I heard what was going on but now what is this, simply a communication methodology of sharing stuff?"
And to your point, but I wasn't savvy enough to know that this is dysfunctional. It was the way we did things. So how do we turn meetings into something which is more like a baseball team practicing to win than it is simply to appear and be seen and to do?
Mark Samuel: I mean, what's so interesting is when you're going to hear the answer become so obvious. We all want to be successful. And the only thing basically that keeps us from being successful are the challenges and obstacles along the way. Why don't we make meetings about surfacing and solving those obstacles? Anything that's going to get in the way of us being successful is what we talk about and resolve, not based on one person's agenda or politics or hierarchy, whatever, it doesn't matter.
We've got problems that are keeping us from being successful. Let's remove those. And quite honestly, I look at that as the role of leadership. In particular, leadership teams need to be focused on removing obstacles, so the people that report to them can get their work done successfully.
Andi Simon: I bet you have some illustrative cases that you can share, am I right?
Mark Samuel: Yeah, the ones that become the most obvious are the breakdowns between departments that are currently siloed off working on their own. And now they have to come together. This can be in a medical center, it could be in a manufacturing facility, it doesn't matter. But any time the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and there's a breakdown, we need to surface it. And it's all about coordination. It's all about communication, but not just communication in terms of information flow, it's communication to let people know changes. What's going on? Where are difficulties that we need to let each other know ahead of time?
This all happens, by the way, in music groups and sports teams all the time. They're literally practicing that. So in a way, organizations need to do the same thing. I just heard of one the other day where a department was implementing a new change, and didn't tell the other departments until the email came out and all the leaders were caught off guard. Like, I actually don't know how to talk about this or answer any questions because I wasn't made aware of this ahead of time. And it's such a simple thing. And yet, it constantly happens.
Andi Simon: Why does it happen? I mean, I'm thinking about all the companies I've worked with, and am working with. Now it would seem simple to ensure that everybody knows what's going to happen, how it's going to happen, to discuss some of the obstacles that are going to be faced, and how to ensure that why the point of what we're doing has purpose, and actually gets done, as opposed to creates chaos, which sounds like this is what happened here. But why don't we think about it? How do you change it?
Mark Samuel: Well, it's actually interesting enough. This might surprise you, but it actually has to do with the word accountability and what we're accountable for. Because organizations have become accountable for activity, getting things done, doing things, rather than the outcome of what we are trying to accomplish by the doing of it. And so in a sense, that department checked it off the list, we did it, we created the change, we communicated it, that's part of the checkoff. It wasn't outcome driven to what's actually going to make this change successful for everybody. They weren't thinking of that. They were only thinking of, "My job is to do something."
And when you then add in the silo behaviors, that I'm not really thinking about my impact on others, I'm only thinking about what I need to do, what's on my plate and the activities, then it's a formula for disaster, because I'm not going to communicate it. I'm not going to be thinking about the result of it and what's going to set everybody up for success. And that's where we have to shift our thinking around accountability. I'm accountable. I'm not accountable for doing things. I'm accountable for accomplishing something that's greater than my department, greater than my function.
Andi Simon: I love what you're talking about and so timely, but tell me how do you make that happen? I'm anxious to pick your brain, because the skills that we bring to our clients sometimes get stale, but more often, we would love to learn what others have done effectively. So help me help my clients with what has worked well.
Mark Samuel: Well, again, there's actually a simple answer that we're not doing and that is that when you start, this is actually in some respects a middle management issue, not senior management. Senior managers, they're meeting together all the time. Middle managers don't have a purpose as a team. They're there to support their executive and optimize their department. But that's not actually true.
What we need to do is bring middle managers together, make them a team responsible for the organization's excellence and culture. They're the bridge between direction and getting it done. But they don't have a common purpose unless you are a team, so what we do is we actually get middle managers, we sometimes will bring in 40 to 50 people in a room, but create a common purpose of what we're about as a middle management leadership team. That now becomes overriding compared to just our functional area. We become in service to something greater, which is the whole organization, but we do it as a team. And we make that purpose operational excellence and culture.
Andi Simon: Don't you love it? It's just so timely and important. Amy Edmondson is working on teaming and raises some interesting questions about exactly what you're saying. I love if we don't have a purpose among those managers that shared, there's no game we're playing together. I don't know whethe I'm hitting the ball or catching the ball. I don't know how my efforts affect yours. Amy talks a lot about teaming across departments, similar to what you're talking about. But you don't talk about it as action call teaming. You're talking about a team but I have a hunch there's behavior modification here as well. What kind of behaviors change as this middle management team emerges? I think it's important to visualize it.
Mark Samuel: Absolutely. And this is where the focus that we've been having in many several books out right now is on habits, you know, atomic habits and individual habits. But the problem with those, with that concept is, it's focused on individual habits. And when you really look at baseball teams, football teams, music groups, basketball teams, it doesn't matter, acting, they're actually developing team habits. How do you turn a double play? How do you transition from one piece of the music to another? That's a team habit. We're all listening. We're all cooperating, we're all communicating.
We create team habits around how we surface and solve problems together. How do we make decisions in a timely manner but in an inclusive manner? How do we set criteria for what success looks like? How do we even make sure that we're communicating with one voice? By the way, that one habit is the biggest game changer for culture of anything I've ever worked with before. When you get the whole team, deciding, "How do we communicate? When do we communicate? And how will we respond to questions and concerns in a common way?"
Andi Simon: Do you know how hard that is? I mean, I'm a culture change expert. And following this story, I worked with a company and they brought their 12 leaders there and they each had a different story about what the culture was there. They did. I said, "Okay, where do we start? There's one octopus running in different directions because you haven't shared a common story. And if you're going to change the culture, and now we need to craft that new one, how are we doing? What are we doing? Where are we doing and it has to fit into those corporate top level strategies, as well as what you would like people to actually do." This is just so timely and important. Other thoughts?
Mark Samuel: Well, can I give you an example. In healthcare, I was working with a medical center, and the leadership team needed to make some changes. The resistance came from physicians; as you know, that's a tough cookie to crack. I mean, first of all, they don't work for the medical center. They're independent, they work in conjunction with it and they had some very loud, aggressive physicians who were always resistant to change. And when we implemented this "speak with one voice," they all then started to recognize what was the resistance and instead of reacting to it, they planned ahead of time how they would respond. Literally in three months from being so unified, that resistance went completely away.
Andi Simon: Don't you love it? So you actually happened to change?
Mark Samuel: It shocked me actually. I didn't know that that would be as powerful as it was, but it was amazing.
Andi Simon: And when you say things like "speak with one voice," I'm curious about the support for that. How did you meet? Did they meet often? Did they reinforce it through communication channels? What were some of the methodologies? Because typically, you agree, and then you go off on your own. And every day, you remember what you thought you were going to do. And the voice gets diluted into many voices. "Yes, do that."
Mark Samuel: Well, we created a team habit. And a team habit is really a process of behaviors. So it has an order to it. And they had a wonderful team habit that said, we're going to understand, we're all going to message this together, and we're all going to agree on the message. And then we're going to brainstorm what's the ideal way to have the greatest impact on our audience. Do we do it through written? Do we do it verbally? Or both? So they literally strategized communication.
I always tell groups, just to interrupt my own story for a second, the purpose of communication is never to share information. The purpose of communication is to manage the response you get from the information you're sharing. And that's a whole mindset change because now it's not just about getting information out.
So they're looking at, How do we get the best response, and then anticipate what the resistance would be, and how they would respond well. And here's a trick that was going on there. If a physician didn't like what they heard, they went to another manager to get a different story. Now, when they went around that person, they got the same story, if they even got the same article that referenced why they were making the change. And the person said, "Okay, I already got this article from this other guy, stop it already. I'll just cooperate."
Andi Simon: Talk a little bit more. And then we can wrap it up. Behavior modification isn't easy. And I don't care. I tell people, I don't care if you're going to Weight Watchers to lose weight. Or you're going to exercise every day because it's essential for your well-being. How are you going to even change your calendar, so you have a gratitude diary.
At the end of the day, the habits are powerful. Your brain hates the unfamiliar. It would much rather do what it's always done. It has a story in there that's true. That story is true, but in your mind, that illusion of reality is your reality. And so consequently, anything on the outside just interrupts it, knowing your amygdala deletes it. It hijacks it. It isn't personal, this is human.
And, consequently, team habits are a great concept because you've got to get everyone's mind to see the same story and to share the same reality and behave in a different fashion. And you're going to help each other with the behavior modification. Some thoughts?
Mark Samuel: Yes. And you brought up something that's to me so important; it goes back to my younger days. I'm a perpetual dieter since I was a kid. But I'll tell you, it's always easier to stick to the diet when my family is doing the same diet than when I'm eating boring chicken and broccoli and they're eating pizza just doesn't work the same way. The same is true in an organization.
The one thing that's great is, they become a support system for each other because it's a team habit, not an individual. I've got, we're all struggling with the same habit. So there's a bit of forgiveness in that and camaraderie if you can do it and support and encouragement.
But there's one other factor. And it really goes back to my accountability days. And that is, we never plan for perfection. We always plan for proactive recovery. And so we're never worried about us not being perfect in the new habit. We've already set up recovery plans for when we get off track. How do we gently get back on track in a supportive way, without allowing too much time? I always tell people when I'm dieting, my problem has always been that my recovery plan has been about two or three years. Yeah, have a one-day recovery plan and then every day it'll work.
Andi Simon: You and poor diets, the challenges humans have, almost all of us do. I once saw a great quote from Mary Barra I think. She said, "It isn't a destination, it's a journey." And I do think that managing leading organizations are journeys where you have lots of people and you're trying to get them to see where you're going and know that you're going to detour along the way and keep moving forward. And I love the concept of team habits. So we're going to reimagine teams. Two or three thoughts you want the audience not to forget. Let's wrap us up with some good insight.
Mark Samuel: Yeah. First of all, when you come together as a team, don't be thinking about the problems of today. Create what would be ideal in an optimal way a year from now. Think in terms of a year and discuss it not based on styles, think of it in terms of what outcomes, what's the reputation we want to have as leaders or as a department in terms of how we're supporting the big, the greater organization and make it future focused so that we can all align to what we want. And in a practical way, not just a philosophical one. It's got to be practical for the challenges of that organization.
Andi Simon: Good. Now, let's emphasize that. At the end of the day, the teams don't exist to be nice. They exist to have good execution, to be accountable, use the word accountable. I love execution, we gotta get the outcomes. You gotta get it done. There's something going on. Now, you'll recognize what isn't working. You're never quite sure why because you're doing your job. But what's going on, it's not happening. So that somehow we are a great organization, but it's not going where we want to go. So let's assume all the people are good people. They're skilled at what they do, but they're just not collaboratively.
So to use your analogy, if you don't practice the team habit of a double play, when the ball comes to you on the field, you stop and think about where to throw it, as opposed to sending it right to second. So it goes to, first you have to double play. How many times are you going to play that over and over and over and over again in your head before you know if the ball comes to you, you know where to throw it? That's where I go. It's a habit. And the team knows that they've got to move to the base to pick it up. And it isn't thought about.
A golfer told me that 749 times I have to hit the ball before my mind stops interrupting it. And heavy comes a habit. I haven't hit the ball 749 times yet, but that mind gets in the way every time. And so that'll make it into that new habit. And so the amygdala hijacking it makes it say, "Oh, that was wonderful." Mark, if they want to get your book or they want to reach you consulting, what kinds of things do you offer people?
Mark Samuel: Well, we offer lots of articles that are free to view. We do have our books, obviously, we have self-learning systems. And the best way to do that is just go to reimagineteams.com. It's all right there for everyone to see, everything that we have to offer. And it's easy to engage with us. We do have a monthly newsletter that we put out for people, as well as podcasts and things like that, which we're doing. So it's just a wonderful resource because we really made it for people to gather as much information and learn as much as they can without having to invest much. So reimagineteams.com is the place to go.
Andi Simon: So I have Mark Samuel with me today on On the Brink. Now remember, my job is to get you off the brink. So if you're on the brink, and you aren't quite sure what to do, reimagining teams might be exactly what you need. And a little help might help as well. For me, my two books are selling extremely well: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. They're both about change, which is what we do. We specialize in helping organizations change. And I'd love to help you. So if you want to see, feel and think in new ways, if you're stuck or stalled, get ahold of us at info@Andisimon.com. and we'll see how we can help. And Mark is here to help you as well. We do it in similar ways. I love to share with you smart people. We're going to give you insight so that you, too, can change. It's not easy. Mark, thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure.
Mark Samuel: Thank you Andi. This is really great. Thank you.
Andi Simon: And for all of you who came, as you always do, you know we're in the top 5% of global podcasts. Keep pushing them along, share, because there's nothing better than sharing good stuff. Take care. Bye bye.
Hear how memories impact you now and guide your future
What are your memories of growing up? Your friends? Neighborhood? Life-changing moments in our society? In today's podcast, Helen Newman, a friend from my elementary school (Davis Elementary School in New Rochelle, NY) and I discuss the power of memories. Although we had different experiences in high school (she was in a sorority, I was president of the Salmagundi Club), we both experienced the good times and not-so-good times of the 1960s. The funny thing about memories is that they're selective. We pick and choose the ones that fit our own story, often one where we are the heroes and we forget what others were struggling with or enjoying all around us. I guarantee that after listening to Helen, you will be amazed at her wisdom and joy.
Helen writes about something every month.
Sometimes it is about why that month means something to her. Other times, she writes about old friends and new ones. But in today's conversation, we go deeply into the anguish we all felt during high school. If you were alive then, you like us will forever ask: "Where was I when John F. Kennedy was shot?" We even remember what we were wearing.
We also talk about how we felt when our biology teacher, Mrs. Schwerner, lost her son during the civil rights unrest in the South. And the conflicting passions surrounding the Vietnam War. To state the obvious, we grew up in very challenging times.
This month (November), she wrote about our autograph books.
It was hysterical to remember what people wrote about. Her book was filled with poignant, loving, sincere and sentimental sayings, like: "Helen and whomever, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G." You remember those. Her favorite, and mine as well: “When you get old and out of shape, remember girdles are $2.98.” Sadly, they don’t make autograph books anymore, and I would have to dig into my attic to find mine. But you get the point!
Helen never expected to be a writer.
A while ago, she started to write and then it became a wonderful hobby. I love the blog posts that seem to touch everyone's heart. She remembers stuff that we might also, but she puts it into a story (usually her own) and brings us back to the days when...you can finish my sentence.
My message to you, our listeners, is to find your own Helen Newman.
Or become one for others. Remembering is so important as time flies, and the moment brings back the time and place you were growing up in. We might still be growing up, never growing old, but we continue to live each day, forgetting how our past framed our present and set the stage for the future.
I cannot thank Helen enough for joining us today and sharing her own story. Think about writing yours. You can contact Helen at hnewman@tsjesq.com.
My quote for us today:
“The worst part of holding the memories is not the pain. It’s the loneliness of it. Memories need to be shared.” ― Lois Lowry, The Giver
For more about storytelling and the role it plays in our memories, try these:
- Blog: How Storytelling Can Transform Your Culture And Energize Your Team
- Podcast: Karen Dietz—Your Story Is Your Secret to Amazing Success
- Podcast: Roshni Pandey—To Find Your Happiness, Assemble The Kind Of Life You Want
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. As you know, I'm your host and your guide, and my job is to get you off the brink. You know, my company, Simon Associates Management Consultants, we've been around for 20 years, helping people see, feel and think in new ways so they can change. And I often look for people who are going to give you a new perspective so you too can begin to see things through a fresh lens. You maybe even step back like an anthropologist (like myself) and observe what's going on and reflect on it, reflect on yourself, and begin to find great ways to think in new ways.
So today, I have a wonderful woman here, Helen Newman. Helen and I go back to elementary school. And I'm going to let her tell you her story because as we were talking, and I was reading the things that she writes on Facebook, to bring back the memories, I said, "My audience should hear you remember."
We're storymakers. Humans love to make stories. And when we do use memories to create them, we connect in ways that are really magical. I'm going to read you one of hers in a moment. But first, Helen, thanks for joining me today.
Helen Newman: It's a pleasure to be here.
Andi Simon: Tell the listeners, who is Helen Newman and what's your journey all about?
Helen Newman: My journey, let's say I'm a senior citizen so I've had a long journey. I grew up in New Rochelle, a suburb of New York. And when I look back, I think of my childhood as wonderment. Of course, there were bad days, a middle child, typically an outgoing introvert. And I had to fight for my place in the house. There were three girls, and I'm in the middle. It was my friends, my school that meant the most to me. And I never forgot that.
I went to New Rochelle High School with you. I met my husband in New Rochelle. He wasn't in the high school with me because he had already graduated. But he also was from New Rochelle. He passed away 10 years ago. I went to art school after high school, I wanted to be an art teacher. But I always secretly wanted to be a writer.
In those years, I hope your listeners remember that for women, it wasn't all that easy. And even my own mother who was kind of a beatnik, she was a pianist, even she said, "Well, be a teacher. You know, you'll be home in the summer with your kids." And all of that 1963, mid '60s, feeling. But secretly, I always wanted to be a writer.
Andi Simon: But you didn't become a writer?
Helen Newman: No, I did not. As a child, I lived in a cul de sac. And I used to write plays when I was nine years old. And made all of the girls in the cul de sac be in the play and make the parents pay to come and see it.
Andi Simon: I know when you were telling me that, I suspect that I even attended them.
Helen Newman: I remember doing The Princess and The Pea. I got the Golden Book and then wrote my own scripts. And I think I was about nine or 10. But I was never encouraged in any way other than to be an artist. She couldn't see beyond the teacher. And I love children. So she knew that. My father, however, said to me, "You should be an attorney because you can argue on any subject." And I ended up working in a law firm after teaching. It's really funny because I still remember my father saying, "You can argue any case." He didn't have any sons so I was the son he never had.
Andi Simon: Oh, I love it. The interesting part, as we were preparing for this, we were reminiscing. You know, we both went to school at a time when New Rochelle was, I'm going to guess, half Jewish and half African American, maybe 40/40. But it was a very interesting time. We held hands and sang We Shall Overcome. Absolutely. It was a time when Michael Schwerner, who was our biology teacher's son, was killed in the South. And one of the folks on the Facebook stream went under the Michael Schwerner bridge on the Hutchinson Parkway and was reminiscing. The reminiscing part is really important. We were there when John Kennedy was shot. And we all can vividly remember what we were doing and where we were at that moment in high school.
Helen Newman: Yeah, just recently, a niece of my daughter in-law from New Jersey interviewed me on where I was the day Kennedy was shot, and what I was doing, and I said, "Not only do I remember everything, but I can tell you what I was wearing. That's the impact."
Andi Simon: But I remember that all of us had gone through the Vietnam War period. I mean, we were all growing up in a transformational moment for American society. I don't think it's ever stopped being transformed. But I agree, I do think that we were growing up and changing at the same time.
Helen Newman: Yes. I think it's really important to change. When you grow, you change when you go out into society. When you meet people, you change. That's why friends of mine have used the term, "Oh, I'm old school." And they do it on purpose. Because it drives me crazy, the hairs on my neck stand up. Old school means you're not changing with the times.
Andi Simon: Oh, so interesting. So they've boxed you in yet you do your own thing. Ten years ago, you lost your husband and then you started to write on Facebook on our New Rochelle High School class of '64 Facebook places. Was losing your husband a catalyst for this or just you needed something to do? What was the momentum there?
Helen Newman: No, actually, starting in 1974, I was called by a few friends because I have this weird organizational talent. Don't ask me why. They called me and said, "Let's have a ten-year reunion." And I always like working. I always like having a project. So I said, "Okay, I'll do it." And I did. And it's very interesting. Very few people came. And it was the 23rd year of our graduation when someone called me and truthfully, I don't even remember who it was, I think it was three or four people called, and said, "You should do a 25th." And I said, "Oh, God, it's a lot of work." But I did it. We had 400 of our graduates come to White Plains, NY for the 25th reunion.
And the feeling, I can tell you something that I still remember, I was sitting at the welcoming table because I had to be like the boss and show everybody what to do. And I saw two groups of people walk in and see each other for the first time in 25 years. And they started screaming and running to each other. And I looked at my friends and I said, "This is worth it. It's worth it. Look at these people. They are so happy to see each other." And that was when it started. Then when it was our 48th anniversary, I got another call who said, "You have to do it for 50 years." And I said, "It's a lot of work, but I'll do it." I formed a committee on Facebook. There's a Facebook New Rochelle High School Facebook page. And I started to promote it. How else do you do it?
So I started writing. Ah, and from then on the countdown, all of the questions that helped me find people all over the country. Very few stayed in New Rochelle. I've been one of the only few that are still here. And it snowballed into people calling me and saying, "What are you posting? I love your posts."
And again, I'm the typical outgoing introvert. I like to be with a lot of people but I like to be by myself. Oh, this was way after the reunion, I got phone calls again: "Don't stop posting. I look forward to it," because people want to remember. They do want to remember. And it's important. Our friendships were important. We lost contact with people, we regained that contact. It's so special to me that I don't even have the words and I'm filled with words. I don't have the words to express to you how much it means to me that people have reconnected because of me.
Andi Simon: I'm going to read Helen’s latest September 2nd posting, a piece of it, so you can get the feeling because I want to go back to what she said is important to her. But it's also important to all the 1000 folks who are graduates who are reading it, and the 125 who view it and then share it and then comment on it. And I watch their names and I'm going to say we hung out. This is cool. So this is September:
As I was pondering what to write, I suddenly realized that the month of September is filled with memories and holidays to celebrate. Now, the hard part is trying to focus on one particular aspect of the month. Oh my goodness, obviously, I cannot write funny anecdotes about how deliriously happy we are that our kids are going back to school. I can't even write about how deliriously unhappy teachers are to go back to school. Most of you, not all, but most of you must be retired, so you know that subject. I could write about Labor Day, but I believe I've told you all this. However, one statistic is interesting. Did you know that more people are born in September than any other month of the year? Yeah, that was interesting. Is that why we celebrate Labor Day in September? Maybe? September 10 Is TV dinner day. Do you remember the TV dinners? Oh, I remember them. Except they're called streaming dinners now, and I laugh. Also September 17 is locate a friend. But I've already located all of you. And then there's September 19: respect for the aging day. No, definitely not that.
And I can tell you, Helen, I'm not the only one who was laughing. So here's what I've decided. I'd like to celebrate Google. Oh, so important. No, so needed effect. Did you know that Backrub was the original name of Google? You imagine it being called Backrub? I got to get a backrub. Really? I know. You can tell me more about it. Google was founded on September 4, 1998. Now think about it. By Larry Page and Sergey Brin while they were PhD students at Stanford. I shudder to think of what my life would be like if I didn't Google everything. I watch a film and Google the director. I read a book and Google the author. I'm a Google libertarian.
Helen Newman: Don't bother googling me. I come up as Helen Newman Hall, rec center.
Andi Simon: And so enjoy your Labor Day weekend. And then keep laughing. And those comments are all absolutely beautiful comments, because we never stop learning interesting things about September. I can't even begin to count the time. So I'm asking Google for info. Thanks, Helen. I love this post. I wonder if the number of babies born in September were after the end of the war. So I share with you my listeners and my audience why Helen was so important to bring to you. Because she makes us laugh. You can't read her stuff. You're not part of the private group. But she can tell us about that.
How do you decide what to write about? And where do you get the humor, and how I want the listeners to think about their stories, and how important it is in their lives, to connect, to belong and to be part of something more than just where you are today. The memories make your life more meaningful. So tell us how you became this writer? That's just brilliant.
Helen Newman: Well, thank you. I love writing. I love making people laugh. Those are my two specialties. I researched the months. Two weeks before I post, I research the month to see what holidays people make up. I don't know where these holidays ever came from but they're on Google. You can Google a month and you will see 50 to 60 holidays. Then I print them out and I circle the ones that could be funny to us and circle the ones that would mean something to us. I try to incorporate something funny about being a senior. Something funny about our childhood and something to remember for all of us to remember. And I start writing. I write on my computer, I print it out, I edit it. The next day I look it over, I make it funnier. It's like a job, but it's a job I love. Yes.
And I'll tell you, what keeps me going is that one month, I think I was in California visiting my children. And I didn't come home until the sixth of the month. When I got home, I had four messages on my answering machine: "Are you okay? Did something happened? I'm waiting for your post." And I thought, oh my god, people really do wait for it. People love to remember. People love the funny things we can remember. People love to remember their childhood friends. Yep. And it means so much to me that 125 people at least read those posts that I post. And because I don't post anything on regular Facebook, it's only on our page. I don't believe in my life being that important to someone to my 400 friends on Facebook, because I love the fact that people love to talk about their past and what we were like when we were children.
Just the other morning, I was like at the Tweed Ward school. I don't know, your listeners won't know. But you'll know, on Quaker Ridge Road between Ward School and Albert Lemon, and the crossing guard was letting a young lady cross. I would say she was in the eighth, seventh or eighth grade. She was wearing Ugg slippers, short shorts, her backpack, a short t-shirt and a sweatshirt. And all I could remember was Mr. Daley called my mother because my skirt was above my knee. I thought she was adorable. But, all I could remember was Mr. Daley calling my mother and said that my skirt was too short. That was probably in 1960, probably 1961. I think the New Abbot Leonard that we went to was in 1961, wasn't it?
Andi Simon: Albert Leonard was a junior high school and Ward School became an elementary school. At the time, the population of children was growing very rapidly. And I only moved up there when I was 10. So you can get some dating and it was promos that I went to, and we all walked there. And Joyce was there. And we all rode our bikes. And we rode our bikes to Lord and Taylor. And it was a great community.
Helen Newman: When Lord and Taylor closed, I almost was in tears because we used to ride our bikes there.
Andi Simon: So the memories are essential to who we are.
Helen Newman: They are absolutely essential to who we are. It. I think one of my posts mentioned, we had to have license plates on our bicycles. And I remember the test at Davis School. Kids don't have to do it now. We were so into our school. We were so into each other. It means a lot to remember that.
Andi Simon: It does. It does. And sometimes I need some clarity on my memories, because I lived on Primrose Avenue. But I went to the Davis School. And as I said those words I said, No, that's not right. You didn't go to the Primrose School, you went to the Davis School up the hill. And I do think that sometimes our minds forget all important kinds of things that we want to learn to remember. So as you're looking forward, I always like to look ahead a little bit. You know, it sounds like you're going to be doing this for a long time. It gives you great pleasure.
Helen Newman: It gives me great pleasure. It's getting harder because I don't want to repeat myself and I've been doing it for 10 years, once a month for 10 years. So I will keep doing it as long as the people respond because that's what keeps me going. They love to remember that we were great kids. Kids are great.
Andi Simon: We were great kids and we cared about each other. And one of my mom's legacies was when she would say to me, "Andrea, I really don't care what everyone else was doing, you only hear what you're doing." It was a very hard way to grow up, because I wasn't quite sure what I was supposed to be doing. And then once you want to watch what other people are doing, and then figure out if that was good or bad, but I remember growing up and having to make choices. And it was a time where you had to find good friends who helped you make good choices, because it wasn't hard to make bad ones.
Helen Newman: Absolutely. It wasn't hard at all. And yet, I don't know any kids that I ever knew that made terrible choices, which was very lucky on my part. We didn't drink. We didn't smoke. We didn't do drugs. We didn't work in my house. We listened to music because my mother was a pianist. So music has always been a big part of my life. And my mother died when she was quite young. So that's another reason why I like to remember.
Andi Simon: You spoke about how you do this but that sounds like a pretty good process for anybody who's listening. And we'd like to do it as well. You got to do a little research. Right?
Helen Newman: Look at what's around you. I don't know if it was last October, or the October before conducting three years ago, I don't know. I was driving to work and I saw a sign for Oktoberfest. And right away, as I'm driving to work, I'm composing my post about Oktoberfest. There's always ways you can connect. And I'll tell you what's really the loveliest part, there's a few of the women who post on Facebook, answering my posts, and they come here twice a year to have lunch with me. That's pretty cool. To have them live in the city, which is not far away. But one of them lives in South Carolina, the other lives in Florida. They come up to New York to see their children and for other reasons. And they make sure to call me and usually in December, we have a little lunch. And just as these are my friends from forever.
Andi Simon: I was a professional up in Poughkeepsie, and I'm at a party. And a woman walks over and said, "Are you Andi Simon?" And I said, "Yes." She said, "I'm Dana Men." So I said, "Oh my gosh!" You know, I was like, ah, you know, six degrees of separation.
Helen Newman: You're absolutely right. And with me still being here and my husband from New Rochelle, no matter where I go, someone will say, "Wait, did I know you in high school?" Yeah, it's fun. It's important for us to remember our childhood, see this and grow from that. Not everyone had a perfect childhood. I always told my kids, and I'll probably leave you with this: there are three types of families. There's dysfunctional, semi-dysfunctional, and television. Called my kids that perfect family except Father Knows Best.
Andi Simon: You're so funny.
Helen Newman: And now that we're parents and grandparents, remember your parents and your grandparents and what they went through.
Andi Simon: I feel extremely blessed because my kids are out in California and visiting my kids is just terrific. Ones are in New Hampshire, terrific ones in California. Terrific. They have great families, and they're raising great grandkids. And so I sit back and I look and I say, Well, I was professional from the time you were babies. And you seem to have raised yourselves really well. And I'm delighted.
Helen Newman: So they raised themselves. I have two children, both living in California, both working in Hollywood. So they were brought up with a mother who cared about music, art and film and writing. And they themselves are there. So doing the same thing.
Andi Simon: Helen, any last words or shall we wrap up for our listeners?
Helen Newman: It was a pleasure to talk to you. I love my Facebook, my New Rochelle High School Facebook page. I'm so glad that you read my posts. I want everyone out there to understand that your childhood is really important. Yeah, don't forget to think about it and don't forget it.
Andi Simon: I'm going to add to that being an anthropologist, like I am, we spend a lot of time understanding that people are story makers and storytellers. I will tell you there's nothing in Helen’s posts, she's a wonderful novelist, but none of our own memories are true. The only thing we have are our memories, which are great stories, right? That's why when she and I started comparing the numbering, meaning, where we were and how your mind wants to make sense out of now, in the context of where you were, then exactly. And so the best thing you can do is start to write and make it a blog that you can share with your family, or just make it in your diary so that you can keep it for yourself, but don't lose the memories. Because it helps you belong to something bigger than just yourself. And your thoughts?
Helen Newman: Well, that's exactly how I feel.
Andi Simon: Now I'm going to post this and push this out into the world. And for our listeners, we are in the top 5% of global podcasts. And I'm honored because it's you who helps share, and so many of you listen and then email us and tell us what you've enjoyed. I'm anxious to hear about starting to write your own stuff and share it with us. And let's use Facebook for all the things that can be done and Google as well. So at the end of the day, I want you to have a very happy day and enjoy the memories. Thanks again. Goodbye.
Hear how to boldly take control of your own career path
Dr. Vicki Baker's sixth book in five years solidifies her standing as a nationally recognized expert in the unique issues faced by mid-career faculty in higher education. As she coaches numerous professionals, she has discovered a recurring theme: academicians get their degrees and often their tenure, but then get stuck or stalled in their career advancement. Is it that they need better mentors? Or do institutions need to identify and sponsor their high-performing stars earlier, and coach them along their pathways to career advancement? And this is happening not just in the world of academia. Industry is struggling with the same dilemma. Are you stuck or stalled in an academic position or a corporate career trajectory? Make a point to listen in for Vicki's solutions.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Why women academics often get stalled, and what to do about it
On an annual basis, I have conducted workshops for Vicki's students involved in business development with their French counterparts. We talk about Blue Ocean Strategy, and together with Vicki's guidance, the students begin to frame approaches to their concepts that can open new markets, not just compete in current ones. The students are mighty impressive, as is Vicki. In this podcast, however, we focus on Vicki's particular passion: women's careers in academia.
About Vicki
Vicki L. Baker, Ph.D. is the E. Maynard Aris Endowed Professor in Economics and Management at Albion College, Faculty Director of the Albion College Community Collaborative (AC3), and Co-Chair of Albion's Economics and Management Department. She is also an instructor for Penn State University's World Campus. Recognized as a "Top 100 Visionary" in Education by the Global Forum for Education and Learning, Vicki is at the forefront of innovation and strategy in faculty and leadership development. As a faculty member and Fulbright Specialist Alumna (Utrecht Netherlands), her goal is to help faculty members, colleges and universities thrive. She has authored 90 peer-reviewed articles, chapters, invited works and books, and be contacted at vbaker@albion.edu.
For more on finding your path, here are some suggestions:
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Blog: How To Thrive In Today's Crazy World? Make Change Your Friend
- Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You?
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide, and my job is to get you off the brink. I love to do podcasts to bring you interesting and important people to help you see, feel and think in new ways. As you know, your brain hates to change. And so my job is to get you off the brink and begin to see opportunities, ideas, instructional information, inspirational ways to begin to think about yourself differently and to do it as well.
So today, I have an absolutely wonderful woman with me. Vicki Baker has been very kind over the years, she's invited me to do remote classes for Albion University, Appian College, and she'll tell you more about the college and what she does there. I've talked there several, many times about Blue Ocean Strategy to her students. It reminds me what it was like when I was an academic. I spent 10 years as an academic person, I was an Assistant Professor, head of a department, making all those meetings and doing all kinds of things before I got into business.
But the interesting part is what Vicki is doing to help others, particularly women, perceive it and pursue their careers in a university or academic environment and why that's so hard. So a little bit about Vicki, and then she'll tell you about herself. Recognized as a “Top 100 Visionary” in Education by the Global Forum for Education and Learning (20-21), Vicki is at the forefront of innovation and strategy in faculty and leadership development. As a faculty member herself and Fulbright Specialist Alumna (Utrecht Netherlands), her goal is to help faculty members and colleges and universities thrive. She earned her PhD (Higher Education) and MS (Management and Organization) from Penn State University, MBA from Clarion University and BS from Indiana University of Pennsylvania. Vicki also holds a certificate in Human Resource Management from Villanova University and is a certified professional in HR from the Society for Human Resource Management.
She earned her PhD in higher ed and her MS and management organization from Penn State and I was an undergraduate there. So who knew that our paths had crossed, because she works in Michigan now and I work in New York. But it's really important because she also holds a certificate in Human Resource Management from Villanova, and is a certified professional in HR from the Society for Human Resource Management. Vicki is the E. Maynard Aris Endowed Professor in Economics and Management at Albion College, Faculty Director of the Albion College Community Collaborative (AC3), Co-Chair of the Economics and Management Department, and serves as an instructor for Penn State University’s World Campus. Prior to joining the academy as a faculty member, Vicki worked at Harvard Business School (Executive Education) and AK Steel Corporation. Vicki is the author of 90 peer-reviewed articles, chapters, invited works and books, including Charting Your Path to Full: A Guide for Women Associate Professors, Success After Tenure: Supporting Mid-Career Faculty, and Developing Faculty in Liberal Arts Colleges. Her recent book is Managing Your Academic Career: A Guide to Re-envision Mid-Career.
Remember those meetings I mentioned when I was at the university? She spends her life in meetings, and I did too, but she's also the author of 90 peer reviewed articles, invited works, chapters and books, all kinds of books. She's developing faculty and liberal arts colleges' success after 10 years supporting mid-career faculty. That's the full professorship and all kinds of interesting stuff. So Vicki, I'm so glad you're with me today. Thank you.
Vicki Baker: Thank you, Andi. And I'm glad to be able to interact with you in this way. I've been so appreciative over the years of you joining us at Albion, and supporting my students on Blue Ocean Strategy and how to carve their own path. So it's nice to be able to interact with you in this way.
Andi Simon: Tell the listeners about your story. You clearly have wandered on a journey that's been fulfilling for you. I remember in the academic world, part of the growth is our own personal growth as well as the professional one. Who's Vicki Baker? And what's your journey been like?
Vicki Baker: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that answer probably changes every day. If you asked me that question two years ago, versus two years from now, it would probably look different. But at this very moment, I'm a proud mother of two children. I think that identity is on the forefront. My son is soon to be eight, my daughter is nine. So they're 19 months apart. And I actually started my life not thinking I would be in education of any kind. My mom was a kindergarten teacher for 35 years. My dad was a teacher. My grandfather, my mom's dad, was the superintendent of the school district. My mom's brother was a teacher and became a principal. And I literally vowed I would never be a teacher.
My undergrad degree is actually in engineering. And when I graduated from college, I moved to Ashland, Kentucky and was an engineer in a steel mill. And I really enjoyed doing that. But then I also realized I didn't want to be a 55-year-old woman wearing steel-toed boots and a hard hat to work. That's really good, but I learned some critical lessons about relationships and communication and building those that is a core foundation.
And then got my MBA. From there I moved to Boston and worked at Harvard Business School in executive education...talking about a juxtaposition. We're working with Fortune 500 level executives here and then I was working with generations of families in a steel mill. And again, there were some core lessons about human rights that I could take with it, but it was funny that comparisons in the types of conversations I had in those environments, and I really remember being in awe of watching some of these faculty walk in the room and do their thing. But there's a reason they have the reputations that they do.
And so I was working on a second master's degree there. And it was my faculty member there that said, just go get your PhD. I really liked business and I liked higher education and knew I would marry those two areas, I just didn't know in what form or what ways, and she had recommended I apply for my PhD either at Penn State or Michigan for the program because they were the top two in the country. And I'm from Pennsylvania. So I thought, I'll try Penn State. If I get in great, if not, then I'll stay here. And probably not surprisingly, the assistantship that I got put on was looking at learning outcomes for engineering education. So the background, the background came into play.
And a year after being there, I got an email two weeks before the fall semester started from the chair of the management department which said, "Rumor has it you have your MBA and rumor has it you used to work at Harvard Business School in exec ed." And I said, "Both of those rumors are true." And he said, "Would you be willing to meet with me?" And I said, "Sure," and had a meeting. And he said, "Would you be willing to teach for us and the class starts in two weeks, there's no book, there's no syllabus, and we just need you to get fives and above on your teaching evaluation, the max is seven, and I don't need to have a conversation with you."
That's where the teaching started. I would mentor anybody now. Don't say yes to that. There's no support, and you're being set up to fail. And so I was young and naive and didn't know any better and wanted the experience. And I fell in love with teaching. And that's when I knew I would end up doing it. But it was so funny, because I swore I would never go down that path. And I guess it's just in my blood. And I've just been committed to fundamentally helping people advance in their careers. I like to help people find what they are passionate about and how can I help them find whatever that thing is, and help them work towards it. So that's how I got to this point in the books in the work that I do.
Andi Simon: But you know, as I look at your classroom, and the folks, I really liked doing it virtually this time, because I could see their faces. They were great. And they were all women this time, which was sort of interesting. But you aren't pedantic or informative, you're inspiring and enabling, and I hear your interactions with them. And that teaching you're doing is encouraging them to life's experiences and to pulling it together for their own stories to develop.
And my hunch is that you've developed your own style that reflects that engineering and Harvard though awareness of humans. I'm an anthropologist, I'm observing a lot of that. And then Harvard, which is a whole other world. And I mean, you think about stepping back and figuring out what I can contribute to this world that we're in? But now, the topic that we want to talk about today is helping women in their career advancement, because yours is hardly possible for others to easily follow. Could they?
Vicki Baker: I am the probable poster child for a liberal arts experience. Even though I'm not a product of a liberal arts college, maybe where you start is not necessarily where you finish, it's about the knowledge gained from the experiences, the relationship-building that helped propel you along that path. So I'm a good poster child for that. But yes, it's not what I thought I would do. Honestly, again, I vowed, I would never be in this space. But now I can't imagine being anywhere other than this space.
And as you know, it definitely affords you opportunities to engage with the bright young men and women, you get to see that when you join us, and it's provided me a really unique vantage point where I can do the consulting work with academics, particularly women academics, who are trying to answer that what's next question, that mid-career in life. I've got responsibilities at home and personal considerations that matter, and especially highlighted from the pandemic where people are making clear choices about their values and what matters and what doesn't. And so, I've been very fortunate to be able to have that experience, but to also get, you know, the unique vantage point with everybody. But yes, it's not a path that somebody would say yes, that there's a clear-cut direction and I can go that route.
Andi Simon: Or they can say, be open to opportunities, and let the serendipity become part of your life. Enjoy it, embrace it, some work, and some will mean, who would have thought that your course at Penn State would have been the right one. But now that you're counseling other women, I might look at my book Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business so we can compare a lot of notes, but there isn't a woman I know who has a simple, easy trip to wherever they're going. And it's a different trip than the men.
The men whom I coach have different concerns and issues. But the women also are tackling all kinds of other societal issues. I won't call them hurdles or glass ceilings or anything else, they are just society and themselves. And I have a hunch my new coach will listen to them and write your stuff on them. There's some things that keep popping out. So you share with our listeners, you know, three or four major issues that arise when a woman is looking at what's next.
Vicki Baker: That's a really important question and a theme that seems to surface consistently with the women academics that I coach. And again, right, these are bright women, they've pursued, you know, what it takes to get to that level. There's a level of grit, determination, discipline, intelligence and sacrifice to get there. So they didn't get to this point of what's next, without putting a lot of work into it. And yet, the number one, one of the top one or two issues that always come up is, "I'm not sure if I'm ready."
They often come to me if they're thinking about advancing in their career. So the first question is, "Do I have an interest in advancing from associate to full," and I have found some people opt out of that. Men and women for a variety of very valid reasons, you also know you left academia for various reasons as well. So I don't make the assumption that everybody wants to advance. I make the assumption people want to feel fulfilled in their career. So how do we make that happen?
But for those who have advancement on the radar, there's always that question of, "Do I even want to do it? I've sacrificed so much as a PhD student, as an early-career faculty member, to get tenure." Often with women I hear, "I've sacrificed so much already. I don't know if I'm interested in doing that anymore."
I've had one woman tell me, "My marriage took such a hit. I don't know if it could withstand me going to full professorship." Some say, "I might consider it once my children are in school. I've got to postpone it." So there's the first question of, "Do I even have an interest?" And if there is even a remote interest, the next question or issue I hear is, "I don't know if I'm ready." And then my response is, "Well, what's causing you to wonder if you're ready? Is somebody having an explicit conversation with you? Or is this your own feeling of inadequacy? Or you know, that you just are placing these invisible, unrealistic expectations on you? What are the faculty handbooks at your institution? And if you're meeting that, why would you still think that you're not ready?"
So I do think back to your point, Andi, those societal cultural cues that are either very explicit, where we do see those systemic barriers in business and in higher education, but also those kinds of invisible ones that are those societal expectations about, Wait your turn, maybe you're not ready to go up yet. And so oftentimes, it's not an explicit conversation that this woman has had. But there's enough of those societal or institutional cues that are just causing them to hesitate.
And some of it is also a lack of self-confidence or feelings of self-worth, that they're not worthy or ready yet. So I spend a lot of my time trying to tease that out with them and then also help them overcome it and put some solid strategies in place that help them feel more ready and comfortable moving forward.
Andi Simon: What's interesting Vicki is, as I'm listening to you, I'm writing my next book, 100 Trailblazing Women and Their Wisdom. One woman whom I interviewed said, very explicitly, that you ought to surround yourself with teams who support you because when you have that doubt, they will help you see your future. And the second thing is, Raise your hand. You know why, and this is for women in business, it's equally for women in any field, the resistance or reluctance to feel they are ready or they are appropriate, to "If they want me, they'll come and find me."
We're making it difficult because what they're looking for is someone who wants to lead and a leader doesn't wait to be called upon. Now, it may be the wrong time, you may not get it, it may hurt a little bit, because you put yourself out there and it didn't happen to people, all kinds of things. You know, on the other hand, if not you then who? And if not now, then when? And how will you ever get past the hurdles that are keeping you back? Some of the other things that you advise these women on, because I have a hunch our listeners might all be asking themselves as they come out of a pandemic, "What is next?" Some things?
Vicki Baker: Yeah, so we do some just activities. And I'm a big fan of, and I did this myself with the pandemic, just what matters to me, and why do I want my contribution to be right? And so that serves as a really good litmus test with me. So whenever I'm sitting down with clients, and I say, "Let's remove that 'We're going up for full' or 'I'm going to be department chair,' whether I want to be or I'm next up in the rotation. We all know how that works. Put that stuff aside, but right now when all is said and done, at the end of the day, what do you want to be known for? What do you want to contribute? Where do you find the most joy?
Oh, yeah, life is too short. And so we start trying to kind of tease that out. And then we kind of put that contribution statement together. Again, I've worked on mine for about five years. And I tell clients individually or in a workshop, "This looks really clean and neat. But it took me five years to get there, so don't hold yourself to that standard." But for me, when I think about what I find the most pleasure in, where I think I have the greatest value to add and where I feel the most joyful, is when I get to work one on one, whether it's my students, whether it's clients, whether it's in workshops, helping people advance in their career. Whatever advancement looks like for them, not me putting a "you should want to go up for full" thing on them. It's "What does advancement look like to you?"
That advancement could be personal advancement, professional advancement, just life in general. But for me, it's really distilled down to helping people advance in their careers. That's my contribution. And that's where I think I can provide value. So helping people take a step back, recalibrate, let's reassess those values and priorities and really, at the end of the day, what do we want our contribution to be? And that helps guide us and we always hear that advice of learning to say no, and I think that's important. But at mid-career, I think it's much more about being strategic about what we say yes to, but how do we know what we want to say yes to if we aren't clear what we want our contribution to be, and your yeses should be in service to that contribution.
And then once your dance card is full with the yeses, then it becomes easier to say no, but saying no just for the sake of saying no isn't advancing you personally or professionally. So I really think in mid-career, it's much more important to really get clear on what are those values, those priorities? What do I want my contribution to be? And how can I use that contribution to guide me towards what I want to say yes to?
And you highlighted a really important point: mentors. How can you leverage your mentors, if you don't know what support you're seeking from those mentors. And so, I tell women all the time, once you have a better clarity on that contribution, have conversations with your mentors, have conversations with the department chair, dean, a supervisor at work. How can they advocate for you if they don't know the direction you want to be heading? They cannot read your mind. And so getting clarity around those things, and having those critical conversations with people who can advocate for you and help support you is really important.
Andi Simon: The things that you were talking about are important for the listener or the viewer to reflect on for themselves. And I urge you to get a piece of paper and write down one of the exercises we did over the last year: 10 things that really matter to you in a positive way and 10 things that don't, and then shrink those down to five or two, three, and one and begin to focus on what really matters. My daughter gave me a great quote a couple of years ago: Keep an eye focused on, in the course of a lifetime, what really matters. And at the time, when you've been in different roles in different places, and those moments, those times mattered. But then, in the course of a lifetime, where is it going? And you could say, "I'm not going anywhere," or "I'm not sure where I want to go," or "I really know where I want to go."
But it's a good time to see what makes you high and what makes you low. What you want to do more of and less of, but there are processes to help you think about that. You and I both have tools that we use. When I do these exercises with someone, the only way they can sort out those things will take a year and see what makes you high and low. In the absence of that, you're going to shotgun it, and you're going to land someplace or not. You may not go anywhere, but now with the intentionality that you really need to carve your own life. And the other thing I would say is, Don't let people define you. You have to take charge of who you are. People may say, It is your brand, but who are you? And do you find the women come in with a clarity of their brand and who they are? And the answer to the question: why me? Or are they struggling to figure out that question?
Vicki Baker: They're struggling because sometimes the notion of brand makes sense for us because we're in business. We get it, right? But I recognize when I use that language in some disciplines, in settings like brand, that sounds a little too, you know, capitalistic, or we're putting some business terms on it that you know, this is about education. I go, "Yeah, but it's still, again, what is your contribution? What is your value add? What do you bring to the table of brand?"
But at the end of the day, don't you want to be known for something in your discipline, at your institution, among your students? You want to be known as the person who knows X or does X or is really exemplary in A, B and C areas. So I said, "A brand feels too much of a business term for you, fine, but you still are thinking thoughtfully about who am I in the context of my field, in my discipline? What are you known for? What is your subject matter expertise?" And so helping them to really clarify that and again, at mid-career we're triggered. Because it's an evolution and we now also have tenure, we are allowed to take some risks now that we are able to maybe step outside of what we have been known for from a disciplinary perspective to get to tenure, but now maybe we do want to pursue more interdisciplinary work or community engaged scholarship, or things that take us down different pathways and that can be overwhelming and freeing at the same time.
And so you feel like you've got this great opportunity, and you don't know what to do with it. And so trying to think about what are those fundamental building blocks that help us to be able to advance from that, but I definitely see them think about that all the time. I don't even or I don't know who I am right now. Or I know I'm this person to this person, and I'm this role to this person.
And I go, "Are those the ones that you want them to be? Do you want to change them? Do you want them to evolve, or align? I always repeat, as we evolve over time,"Make sure your actions are honoring that evolution." That's really important. Leave the space and grace to allow that evolution to happen. And to honor it via your engagements or how you craft your own narrative. If you don't own it, somebody else will craft that narrative for you and that's likely not going to be in your favor. You need to own your narrative and craft it the way you want it to appear.
Andi Simon: And I emphasize that both in business and for others. I was a visiting professor for a semester at Washington University teaching entrepreneurship. I see you live your story. So what is your story?, your mind wants to know, because it will do exactly what it thinks you want it to do. And once you understand some of the neuroscience behind it, you see that your mind is really looking for what it is you want to do. Because it will wander around doing whatever it thinks you want to do. It'll make you happy or sad, but your mind wants to know. And until you craft that movie set in there or that storyline, that narrative becomes difficult for you to live every day. And because you live your story, and until you land on it and see it coming, every day becomes another challenge, where it's just going in the right direction and you become happy with the tasks to be done as opposed to the path that you're on.
Vicki Baker: And I appreciate the deliberate intentionality being strategic. And again, not that that's not important at all career stages, but I particularly work with mid-career women and I know a lot of women that you've worked with in business or mid-career, it's such a long stage of career in life. And so many ebbs and flows. And you could have childcare as well as elder care. I mean, there's so many different hats that we have.
And again, societal expectations connected to those make it challenging for women to navigate. But I think if we can focus less on those external expectations, and think about taking control of that narrative, and how we want to chart our path and craft that story, that becomes much more empowering, and again leads to putting your hand up again. Have those critical conversations about, here's the five things I narrow down on my list, or here's what I want my contribution to be. Unless you're communicating that regularly with key people, how are they expected to advocate for you or to highlight those opportunities that might be aligned with your strengths if they don't know that's on the table either?
Andi Simon: Well, and it is interesting, because you made a good point. It isn't just academics. I have no idea how many women I coach. I'm an executive coach, who has the kind of story that makes you wonder, something like, "Well, I've made it as far as I'm going at XYZ, Morgan Stanley, wherever it was. I'm pretty good at what I do, but I have no idea where I'm going."
They're making good income so that the income level isn't bad and they don't see that they don't really know who they are at this point. And that lack of knowing who I am and what I want to do troubles me as I work with them because there's nobody holding you back. But that mirror is looking back at you and saying, who are you? And what do you want to do?
And then I have somebody whom I love to coach, and she's learning that her after-work activities have become more fulfilling than her workflows. And I said, "That's okay, you can have a side hustle of some kind or not-for-profit or whatever gives you pleasure, without necessarily returning to that as your income stream. There are ways of balancing your life, but you have to decide nobody's going to decide for you." And if you let them, you're going to have some real painful moments.
Vicki Baker: Absolutely. And even for me, right, my home base is Albion College, and I'm a professor here, but I have the great opportunity to do the consulting work I do and the coaching and that allows me, because nobody loves their job 100% of the time and there's challenges. There are challenges with leadership, challenges with direction and vision, and all of those things, and it can get overwhelming and exhausting at times. And so when I find myself maybe being in a space where I feel less energized by my work at Albion, I've got these opportunities to meet and support these other women and work with these other Institute's leaders. And then it also helps you, and you probably experience too, to realize the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.
And sometimes you're hearing of other institutional policies and practices that are even more prohibitive to women advancing in their career. So then I can come back and go, Hey, it is way worse. So let us not complain anymore about this issue. Yes, there's room to improve. But it can always be worse. And it can always be better. So I'm very appreciative that I am in this position that I have the benefit, and the stability of a home base, but also having this great opportunity to engage across the academy and with such diverse faculty that it really does keep you grounded and centered on what matters. And these are all humans. These are all humans at the end of the day, who just want to feel fulfilled and want to feel like they matter and want to feel like they're making a difference. And that's really fundamentally what it comes down to.
Andi Simon: I have one question for you and then we'll probably go to a wrap-up. But I'm watching and working with companies where the words diversity, equity, inclusion have become top of mind. As you're thinking about the universities and colleges and the academic world, are there efforts going on to change the attitude toward making it easier, because one of the things I saw in the university world was that the leadership were all men and the women were all the worker bees. And I have a friend who's in the staffing industry, and he's lamenting the fact that all the managers and all the officers are men and all the women are doing the recruiting. So we've just moved ourselves into another blue collar worker place and we're not running the sewing machines. But we're doing all the teaching, but not the leadership. Are you seeing universities beginning to rise to the occasion, or run away from it or anything?
Vicki Baker: We are seeing more conversations and efforts, and something that I'm noticing that is at least becoming highlighted in this, is the HR background. And I've had these conversations. There's obviously that disparate treatment, that very obvious over-systemic racism against women, against faculty of color. And so institutions are doing a better job. To say that it's eliminated would be a disservice. That's not accurate. But we're moving the needle. Are we still lagging behind, is that disparate treatment, the well-intentioned policies that we put in place, that we think are moving the needle for populations when we really ask the right questions and collect the right data?
Maybe we're not moving the needle, like we thought, like during COVID, giving women faculty an opportunity to delay tenure clocks. Well, on the surface that seemed really good intentioned, well-meaning, but you're only causing longer periods for women to be at that rank. And we found that it's benefiting men more because they were able to use that time to advance scholarship versus women who used that time for childcare and eldercare.
So again, on the surface, well-intentioned. In reality, it created even more of a disparate impact of these policies. So I think we see that in industry too. But that, again, we're working hard to try to minimize those very overt, this disparate treatment. But we're not asking all the right questions on that disparate impact when we're really looking at which are the populations we care most about, and how can we better support them and the supports in place. Are they really doing what we intended them to do?
Andi Simon: Yep. And we're taking us back to our beginning, but we're going to talk about career advancement for mid-level folks of any kind everywhere. This has become a passion of yours. And you write about it, you're deeply involved in coaching. What do you see coming next for you?
Vicki Baker: You know, that's a great question. I think I'll still focus on mid-career if you were to look at my scholarly agenda. That trajectory follows my career pathway, right? As a doc student, I studied doctoral student experiences. Then as an early-career faculty member, I studied that, and then once I hit tenure and mid-career and became a full professor, even though I'm still very much mid-career, I wanted to understand what we need. I needed support, and I thought, I'm not alone.
So the next thing for me that I think I want to look at are, and it's focused again in academia, but I think we also see this in industry. There's a huge population of contingent faculty, non-tenure track, and there's an increase in reliance. Those faculty, there's a significant portion we're also mid-career, so right at that intersectionality of appointment type and career stage, coupled with gender. We see more women in contingent positions. We see more faculty of color and women faculty of color in those contingent positions. And so they're important. They're important pieces to institutions, and yet I think they're being underserved and undervalued.
So I really want to look at the intersectional lens to those two issues because they're the two largest populations in academia, contingent faculty and mid-career. You have mid-career faculty who are contingent faculty, and right in industry, there is temporary work, maybe not full time fast track, but they are critical. And they provide critical leadership services to organizations, and how are we supporting them so that we are building that bench strength that we are putting them in a position to be the fulfilled contributors that they want to be, even if they're not seeking to be a C-suite person. So I think to your point, we have work to do.
Andi Simon: The way our society has enabled industry, as well as the academy, to grow is not necessarily with equity and inclusion, as opposed to the gig economy, which was a third of all workforce before the pandemic. I have no idea what it is now. But I'm watching as people are making choices, they're putting the responsibility on themselves. But the institutions have to wake up to the fact that they have to change, to begin to give and provide a better place or even not going to the institutions.
I mean, college enrollments are struggling because the number of kids graduating from high school is not on the rise, but in many places is declining. So what's our purpose? And how do we help that mid-level, diverse workforce expand and use us? What's our rule? Questions? One or two things you want our listeners not to forget. It's about time to wrap up.
Vicki Baker: Yep, absolutely. So I think, really take that step back and think about those values, priorities and that contribution. I think that becomes the foundation that we build on. And number two: control your narrative. This is your opportunity to really craft that and what you want to be known for, and you take control of that. I think that's so important for any listener, male or female, but particularly women who are at that mid-career stage and trying to grapple with the What's next. Don't overcomplicate it, put those building blocks in place and work through it. So that's what I would want the listeners and the watchers to watch.
Andi Simon: You know, your mind wants to know exactly what you want it to do, understand that, and begin to craft a story, that narrative, that helps you live every day going someplace. And don't forget about our small wins, steps at a time because you can't move a battleship without it, but make sure you know where you are going. Or will you just wander around and you'll wonder how I go forward? Or how did I get through the day?
And I know people love to live in the moment, but when you're in a career, life is a career, how do you move it? I've been so fortunate to know Vicki Baker, and the Michigan College Alliance, I thank for the introduction. And it's just been fun working with those classes, even remotely. It's great! One day we may do it in person, and I don't know what will happen, will it be good or not good. But for my listeners and my viewers, thank you for coming. I remember I told you, you've accelerated us into the top 5% of global podcasts. It's truly an honor, you send me great ideas for people who we should have.
And I think that the more we engage to co-create the podcast experience, the more you're going to find it worthwhile. I have people who contact us from across the world. "Just love your podcast with...fill in the name." And who knew! But I do know that our job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And that's what we do. We do that as a consultant. Our business is over 20 years old now. And that's how we help our clients see things through a fresh lens.
My two books, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, are both at Amazon and waiting for you. And both have won awards. It's interesting, book writing. My third one's coming. And it should be out by the fall of 2023. I'm very excited about it. And then who knows what's next on my career path? Will I be mid-career? I don't think I've ever been at my peak. When am I going to retire? I've yet to figure out what that all means, other than life's a journey and let's enjoy the trip. Thanks Vicki. Thanks for talking today.
Vicki Baker: Thanks, Andi. I appreciate it.
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As this gorgeous fall rolls on, I continue to share with you some of my favorite On The Brink interviews from the last five years. What's the connecting theme? Amazing women who are forging ahead in spite of obstacles, outmoded gender roles and glass ceilings. Today I share with you my October 2019 interview with Samantha Radocchia (Sam Rad). An entrepreneur, speaker, author, futurist and emerging tech advocate, Sam combines the mindsets of an anthropologist and a technologist — which is why I was so excited to have her join me on that podcast. Sam also did a podcast with me back in 2018 on blockchain, which was shared widely. In this session, we focus on her groundbreaking book, Bitcoin Pizza: A No-Bullshit Guide to Blockchain, as well as what has been happening with blockchain in the year since we spoke initially. Check out both!
Why Bitcoin Pizza?
You have to listen to Sam tell the story about the "10,000-bitcoin pizza" which was the start of using bitcoin for general, everday purchases. What has now become an origin myth of great proportions goes like this: On May 22, 2010, now known as Bitcoin Pizza Day, Laszlo Hanyecz offered to pay 10,000 bitcoins for two delivered Papa John's pizzas. A British man took Hanyecz's offer and bought the two pizzas for him in exchange for the 10,000 bitcoins. This set in motion something that few saw coming: a world-wide movement to transform, probably forever, “the way we do things.” By the way, those original Papa John's pizzas are now worth over $80 million!
What's so exciting is to hear Sam talk about her vision for blockchain
Blockchain is more than a bitcoin currency. To Sam, it's something much broader and transformational. As she says in her new book: “The way I see it, blockchain isn’t just a technology. It’s a technological manifestation of a social paradigm shift from centralized to decentralized, from siloed to open, from controlled to self-enforcing.”
Today, blockchain is tackling a huge array of everyday tasks and challenges. If you're not familiar with blockchain, it's a safe, secure system that allows us to more easily manage our business and personal lives. Whether it's overseeing your banking, paying your taxes, booking vacations, eliminating property title insurance, producing safer medications, tagging and tracking diamonds, or making sure Walmart’s food is safe for its customers, blockchain is not just another way to do things. According to Sam, it is going to become the best way. And, very soon.
In previous On The Brink podcasts, we've heard similar prophecies from Marton Ven when he spoke about blockchain and the food system, and Jared Tate when he shared his thoughts on the growth of Digibyte in two podcasts, the first in June 2018 and the second in March 2019.
As you've probably guessed by now, the future is coming at us fast. Are you ready?
Sam Rad: fearlessly blazing a trail for women in technology
A reformed gamer, Sam started studying virtual currencies in 2009 while writing her anthropology thesis on currency exchanges in the virtual world. Since then, she has founded three companies, holds several patents, and was an early outspoken voice in blockchain as the co-founder of Chronicled, an enterprise blockchain company focused on supply chain. She now consults executives, trade associations, governments and investors on emerging technology trends.
In addition to emerging technology, Sam is deeply passionate about the Future of Work, Future of Production, Future of Community and the sustainability of business. She speaks worldwide on organizational culture and theory, particularly as we shift to globally distributed and remote workforces. Her lectures on risk, emotional intelligence and intuition have been featured by such globally recognized universities as MIT, Columbia and UCLA.
You can reach Sam here:
- Email: sam@bitcoinpizzabook.com
- Twitter: @SamRadOfficial
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/samantharadocchia
- Website: samantharadocchia.com
Want a deeper diver into bitcoin and clockchain? We recommend these:
- Podcast: Sam Radocchia—Ready To Trust Blockchain With Everything From Your Food To Your Taxes?
- Podcast: Jared Tate—The Genius Behind DigiByte Blockchain
- Podcast: Marton Ven—Applying Blockchain to Every Detail of the Food We Eat
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Thanks for joining us today. I'm Andi Simon, your host and my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And I like to bring to you thought leaders who are really changing the way we are thinking about things. In November 2018, Sam Radocchia spoke on our podcast about bitcoin, blockchain and the coming changes in our ways of connecting, but also just connecting, and the great transformation that was coming in.
And as you know, we're particularly interested in both bitcoin and blockchain. We've had Jared Tate from DigiByte on the podcast, as well as Marton Ven from TE-FOOD International in Germany. And we're most interested in how the track-and-trace technologies are developing, and I actually was on a TV show for the construction industry on how they are very behind in trying to get into blockchain.
So Sam came on today because she has a brand new book out, called Bitcoin Pizza: A No-Bullshit Guide to Blockchain. And we're going to have her tell you the whole title in particular, but I love the way she's taken blockchain and bitcoin and turned it into pizza. And she'll give you a little background around it as well. She has a great quote to start her book: “The world as we have created, it is a process of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking.” Albert Einstein said that.
But today is all about helping you change the way you see, feel and think, because if not, the world's gonna go backwards. I'm gonna give you a little bit about her background because I'd like to dip right into her book today. She's an entrepreneur, a keynote speaker and author and emerging tech advocate. Actually, the emerging is probably inappropriate. She said tech advocate, and she has delivered keynotes globally and led corporate trainings at Fortune 500 corporations, trade associations, conferences, national governments, NGOs, investment firms, and the United Nations. She really is interested in educating people on technologies and the cultural shifts that are happening. She's also a gamer, a reformed gamer.
She started studying virtual currencies in 2009 while writing her anthropology thesis, which is why we have so much fun talking, from one anthropologist to another anthropologist, but really about technology and linguistics. And her thesis was on currency exchanges in the virtual world. She was co-founder of Chronicled, an enterprise blockchain company focused on supply chain. And while she's still an advisor there, she's moved off. And this book is really what is all very important today. What is Bitcoin Pizza? Anyway, thank you for joining us.
Sam Radocchia: Thank you, Andi. It's great to be back.
Andi Simon: Tell us, it's been about a year since we met last time. What's happening both to Sam Radocchia and what's happening to the book, and why should we all be so excited to eat it?
Sam Radocchia: A lot is happening. Well, again, yeah, most notably, I've worked for the past year, year and a half, on this book. And it really came from a place. It started almost as a glossary of terminology that you hear in crypto space, but mainly from the cultural perspective. So you know, people say these terms, like, to the moon, or hold on for dear life, or drive Lamborghinis. And they're all of these cultural references that if you're on the outside of the space, it can either feel confusing, intimidating or even just make no sense to you.
So I started making this fun interactive guide and had some conversations where this could be expanded into a book. Spending so much time in the space educating people, I noticed that the challenges that I found was that there was a gap between, not just explaining what it is — there are a lot of people, resources, books, speakers talking about immediately jumping into the nitty gritty of how proof-of-work works — and then everyone's eyes glaze over. But there wasn't a lot out there about why this is important. And beyond just the technology, why the macro, socio, cultural, and geopolitical changes that are taking place are leading to technology, decentralizing technologies. And for me, blockchain isn't just a technology, it represents this greater paradigm shift.
And so when I think about blockchain, I'm not just talking about a distributed ledger, I'm talking about decentralization. I'm talking about distributed 3D printers making things on demand. I'm talking about AI and machine learning. So there's a lot in the book about setting the stage for why we're here and how we got here, even before the creation of bitcoin in the popularization of the term blockchain. It's more about why it's important and what have been the cultural and social shifts.
So for me, with a background in anthropology and as I have studied various groups or organizations, it just it fascinated me, as one being in the industry myself but for people who are new to it who will ask me questions about it or how to get involved or why is everyone talking on CNBC about blockchain? Or why are people changing their company's name from Long Island Iced Tea Company to Long Blockchain Corporation? I just really wanted to help people make sense of it and feel empowered to get involved and learn more.
Andi Simon: Well, let's stay on that. Why do you change the name of a company from Long Island Iced Tea to Long Blockchain Corporation? But I want you to talk about the name of the book first. Because the story about the blockchain, the bitcoin pizza, came from a story, and you're a storyteller. And as an anthropologist, you know that the people listening, their brains are going to change as they listen to the story. And I love to be grounded in storytelling. So how did you come up with blockchain? How did you come up with bitcoin pizza?
Sam Radocchia: So again, it started as a working title, like many things, and I just don't know who doesn't like pizza. So that really was it. But in the space, there is a story. So Bitcoin, the white paper, written by Satoshi Nakamoto, an anonymous individual or group of individuals who invented or proposed bitcoin was in 2009. And shortly thereafter, in May of 2010, so not six months later, there was a programmer named Laszlo Hanyecz. And he was on one of the bitcoin forums talking to another person, saying, "I would like to buy two Papa John's pizzas, and I'll give you 10,000 bitcoin for it." And so they made an exchange and it marks this historically significant transaction, where of course, there were other transactions that had occurred on the bitcoin blockchain. But this is the one that is regarded as the first real world transaction.
And the reason he says he picked pizza was that it was food and it showed the real world. You could use this for something in the real world. And, of course, it became a popular myth or story or narrative, when the price of bitcoin started going up. So you know, people in the community started celebrating this day as Bitcoin Pizza Day, which is May 22. And, you know, in 2017, the price soared, it almost hit around the $20,000 mark. And I don't remember the exact number, but that was something around $700, $800 million for those pizzas, if he had not made that trade, and the other person on the other end of the trade, who has not come out publicly, is sitting on that money.
So it marks this pivotal moment in the industry. And so a lot of the book, and that's a chapter that goes through these cultural myths and narratives and stories for me, that's always been really of interest to me: the origin story, particularly in the corporate setting. So in doing my master's, I studied a lot of the corporate anthropology stuff, and I focused on corporate origin myths. So the stories of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak in a garage, were they really in a garage or not? Or, you know, what does that say about the values of the company?
I mean, bitcoin isn't a company, a lot of blockchain projects are not, they're decentralized organizations. They are more similar to religious movements, or other movements, than they are corporations. And so regardless of the structure of the entity or lack thereof, the movement, the myths and stories that we tell, particularly in respect to origin stories, are so important. It shapes everything. So yeah, pizza comes from one of those very early, very important stories. And that's what I hope to do and have done throughout the book is tie both the technology and the meaning of the technology to these stories.
Andi Simon: But what's really important is that we are also looking at a great transformation about lots of things, one of which is Uber and Lyft, and others like Door Dash delivering food. You can almost make a pizza in a 3D truck and print it on demand and have it delivered through a bitcoin blockchain connection, and transform all the relationships. We have changed all the ways we do things. And you open your book that way. And I said, wow, there's something bigger than a bear here. That's not so complicated. It's really going to be as simple as taking money out of an ATM or using your credit card. It's not as bad as you think, it's actually a lot of fun.
Sam Radocchia: And again, that's one of my favorite analogies and ways to think about this. It's not an analogy to describe how blockchain works, there are plenty of those. It's one that explains more of why it's important. And I also discuss in the book when you think back to those of us who are listening who have used maps, physical maps. But remember, when Mapquest came out, there was this notion of looking at it. We're just going to take a map and digitize it. So use a map, but online, and then Google Maps came out in 2005. And they've totally looked at it differently. They thought of it as an open system. They were like, this is just a set of data points, and we're going to open it.
And on top of that, people could build any apps. And you know, we saw Uber, we saw Airbnb, we saw Yelp. We've seen all those food delivery companies that you just referenced, were built on top of that, that open system. And so if you can shift your mindset to think of it and look at a blockchain differently, or ledger differently, and just understand that we might not know what's coming in the next five to 20 years, but it's the level of change that we saw with even that small change on location information being available. I mean, it created the entire on-demand economy.
So, in the case of food delivery, I come from a supply chain background and inventory management and like, making these global systems more efficient and tracking things. And, I've been pretty outspoken about blockchains, the next phase of blockchain. So instead of maybe tracking things around the world, or having a pizza that's made and then has to be delivered, to it will be produced in the back of the delivery vehicle on its way to you through a 3D food printer.
Andi Simon: And I think that's not far off.
Sam Radocchia: You know, I mean, it's already happening.
Andi Simon: I always love the fact that Lowe's has, in space on the satellite, a system for producing on demand anything food-related, and it's a revenue stream for them. If they can do it in space, they could do it in the back of your car. They could do it on demand. Russia has a 3D printer that prints a house in a day. These are all connected to this great transformation that's coming, blockchain being one of them.
Sam Radocchia: And if we assume this is just one example, the production or manufacturing of any goods...I've met someone recently who's 3D printing spaceships in space. So as this ship moves out farther in space, it just continues to print more of it, like an infinite spaceship, and this is actually happening. It just baffled me. And then I've met people working on 3D printing medications and food. And again, this is within the next five years, of course, with the regulatory constraints of that.
But, a blockchain in there comes in, it's very important on the IP side to manage the design files, or the composition files, security and all of those things. So, I mean, blockchain has a role in a lot of different technological transformations. It doesn't necessarily have to be the center point. It's like one piece of an airplane, maybe it's the engine of the airplane, but an engine is not going to fly itself without the rest of the airplane and the wings.
Andi Simon: I was listening to someone talk about Thomas Edison who invented the telephone, and how because his wife and her sister were deaf, he was trying to create something. And somebody said to him, "I don't know how the funders don't have any funding for it." And he said, "That's such a big idea. You've got to go find funding, you're not making it happen." Because it turned into a transformation and it keeps transforming and transforming. And an iPhone isn't a phone anymore. I mean, how many ways can you study linguistics? How many ways can we communicate as humans, and in the process, that communication is transformational.
So even as I'm listening to you, I do think you need to tell the listeners though, a couple of case studies where blockchain is doing something differently. I'm watching it in construction, because the titles, proof of completion, all of the workflows can be streamlined and all the paperwork basically eliminated through a blockchain system. And there's a company whose name eludes me on the West Coast who is already starting to do this, and large contractors are beginning to see the benefits of it because why do you need all that flow through including payment? But what do you see in some key areas that can at least illustrate this that it's not so far fetched?
Sam Radocchia: So first and foremost, I am fascinated with organizational structure itself. So as the nature of organizations is becoming decentralized and mediated through blockchains, either to work on these projects or the technology itself. So when you look at bitcoin or other communities or foundations, they're structured more like cooperatives, or they're called decentralized autonomous organizations. And this is playing into the future of work, where first we've seen freelancers, the gig economy, remote work, people kind of traveling throughout the world in different countries.
And there are projects now that are creating blockchain-based benefit systems, digital cooperatives to route payments, based on your contributions to an initiative where you can work on multiple different initiatives and flow freely through different organizational structures. So that excites me, because there are a lot of implications as well, around governance. So both corporate governance, whether a company or not. A project called Decred, which is created, they manage their entire thing through an internally-built voting system. And that obviously, then has implications for the government and voting in elections on a larger scale. So that's one area.
Andi Simon: But stay in that area just for a second as you're thinking, because there are an estimated 50 to 60 million Americans who are in the freelance nation. I actually met a perma-freelancer. And she laughed at the fact that you're talking about the name permalancer. She said, "I'm never going back inside."
The world that's arising around the services that they need, whether it's WeWork, or restaurants that have turned into a membership club so you can come and work there. It is all this decentralized and shared economy. And I met somebody who said, "I'm never going back inside. I'm an Uber driver, I have an Airbnb, and I'm a computer programmer, an engineer, and I never want to see a boss again."
And it's a change in values, talking about a cultural transformation. But that's a whole lot of people who are not looking at the unemployment numbers, as part of them. There are 7 million empty jobs in the US, only 6 million people, but 50 or 60 million freelancers, something's wrong in those numbers. But it's a tremendous transformation. Give us another one.
Sam Radocchia: So again, manufacturing and supply chain. So regardless of industry, the automation of business processes, so something is simple in the supply chain. Right now, there are things called bills of lading. So a lot of paperwork, just to get a package from point A to point B. And so there are a lot of companies working on automating digitizing it first, then automating it and using a blockchain to automate those transactions and release payments.
But again, where I see this really going, it's first making supply chains more trusted and more efficient by tracking the goods on them, or tracking reputation of companies, or credit and lending. But it's also then moving to this working with 3D printers, and using a blockchain to store the design files of aerospace parts. So instead of producing in a factory or contract manufacturer a million parts and then shipping them all over the world to sit in a distribution facility to be potentially used or not used, they just print them on demand. And those design files are actually the most valuable part of the whole thing there.
You know, it costs millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars in R&D to create it. So the blockchain houses the license to the file. And so of course, this has implications not just for physical goods production, but also digital rights, the rights to using even my image or stock images online and automating that. So that's a big area as well.
Andi Simon: Sam, a lot of our listeners are not going to be that clear about what is a blockchain and why this is so exciting. So the intellectual property we're talking about isn't floating around on computers that can be hacked. There's a whole different methodology here that secures it differently. So share with them a little bit about what the intellectual property issues are and why this is so exciting.
Sam Radocchia: So again, for the listeners, if you think about companies, whether it's your bank, the DMV, a brand, your online shopping brands, the way that they work right now is that they use a database and it's centralized. That company has the control over it and that also means it's a single point of failure if that was either compromised through a hack, which we've seen a lot of data breaches, or it was compromised through just an employee changing information. Even just the other day, a Twitter employee was able to compromise Jack Dorsey's @Jack account on Twitter, which was pretty big news.
So, in the case of a blockchain, what makes it both secure, but also simultaneously trust. You don't require trust because you're trusting math. And the ledger is that all of that information, instead of being in a central database, it's decentralized and distributed. So there are copies of this information on every what's called a node or computer connection to the network. And all of those computers use math or cryptography to agree upon what's written to it. So, is this information first and foremost, you know, the actual accurate information and then, okay, once it's written to the ledger, it can't be changed.
And why is this important? Because I'm sure people are like, "Okay, cool. This is of no relevance to me." When, for me, it's when we're thinking about the changing world, and a lot of talk and realities of what's going on is automation. So we're seeing autonomous vehicles, or I'm a pilot, there's autopilot. If the information that the machine is responding to is compromised or incorrect, it's going to be a problem. The systems will make that decision.
So I think, first and foremost, on the data security and IP or intellectual property front, the blockchain is important. And yeah, for brands or again, if we're talking about printing, 3D printing jet engine replacement parts with GE, it's not that it's just, it was expensive, in terms of R&D to create, it's that they're all of this metadata information that ensures the quality of that part comes out to the standards that have been tested.
So we're talking about 3D printing, pharmaceutical drugs, or 3D printing food, 3D printing things that will impact what we consume, or that impact transportation or vehicles and safety of human beings. You know, we want to be able to ensure that quality and trust the things that we're consuming, and certainly, it'll be a massive improvement to our existing systems where I think that's what led to the creation, or the need for, technologies like blockchain were these trust gaps.
Everything accelerated exponentially over the past 100 years more broadly since the industrial revolution. But, the advent of mobile phones and internet communications technologies, we became a globalized civilization overnight, and I don't think we were ready for it. We didn’t prepare, we moved too quickly. And then the supply chains got bigger and bigger, and our communications channels became more fragmented. And now we have things like fake news. And we have deep fakes and you can't trust even a video you see online, or like the food that you're getting. Is this going to make me sick, this romaine lettuce?
Andi Simon: Walmart wants to protect you. And they're putting blockchain on it or insisting that their vendors put blockchain on it. I mean, the city of Zurich in Switzerland wants to be a completely blockchain place, with all your ideas, your tax returns, all your transactions. There is something here that can be a revolution, but one that you can actually embrace and enjoy when you talk about blockchain to build a better future.
Blockchain for the better means that those of you who are listening who are nervous: relax, and the most important part is that you begin to think about this like pizza. I mean, this is something that's going to be good to eat. Good to know. And it will be who we are and how we get along. It's going to be transformative.
Sam Radocchia: Yeah, I mean, so I'm going to Brazil next week. And I'm giving a talk on open banking in the role of blockchain but more on the cryptocurrency side of it in a story. I've heard so many stories like this, but here's one example I worked on. So speaking of the future of work, I worked with a designer that I met on Upwork. Turns out he lived in Venezuela. So Upwork is a platform to connect with freelancers and hire them. And he asked that he get paid in bitcoin. And I said, "Okay, interesting. I'm into this." So I did.
Turns out he lived in Venezuela, and he told me his life story, that he had a master's in design and then everything happens there and you know, couldn't get out, couldn't get a job, he was doing work through Upwork and getting paid in bitcoin, but started doing art online and selling that art, that digital art, which is another use case of blockchain, unique digital art and the rights to that, and he was making his money there.
I think on one hand, we have this position being in the United States and having the US dollar, a position of privilege, where we say, This might be scary, or this will never happen. But when you talk to people in countries where maybe they have less trust in either their government or their currencies or other things, you see that it is being used for peer-to-peer exchange, and the technologies are being used today. And they're being trusted today. And so for me, that's what inspires me, is when I meet people that are like, they're very deeply in it, and it is making a positive impact in their lives, whether it's providing resources for them to earn an income in a way that they wouldn't have been able to do before, or ways to trust things like elections, in places where it seems like nowhere we can trust elections these days, but in places that are more open to it, or you know, more desperately needed.
Andi Simon: Now a word from our sponsors, Simon Associates Management Consultants. Simon Associates is us. And we love to help you see, feel and think in new ways to help you and your business grow. We specialize in applying the tools and methods of anthropology. But we're also entrepreneurs and business builders, and we like to share our experience and expertise with you. So if you're stalled, or stuck, or starting up, give us a buzz and let's see if we can help you as well. You can learn all about us at Simonassociates.net and read my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, and learn about it. And Andisimon.com has a free chapter you can download, and a toolkit you'll find very helpful. We're on Amazon, and you can buy it as a book and ebook or even an audible that I recorded myself. We look forward to hearing from you at Simonassociates.net or info@Simonassociates.net is right to us. Now back to our podcast.
You know what you're talking about is an inflection point. And I can't emphasize it enough, there are enough dots in the conversation and enough changes that are coming, whether it's track and trace, or it's this gentleman in Venezuela with a fragile economy where he can get paid in bitcoin, or with construction folks who can use this instead of bills of ladings and get paid as they complete a project. I mean, there's something that when you begin to multiply is going to be transformational. As we wrap, two or three things that you want the listeners to remember, as well as to buy the book, because I think you're going to enjoy reading it. Two or three things that are really important to stick.
Sam Radocchia: So the two things I think about, and it's a great way to end is, first and foremost, blockchain is fundamentally a shift in mindset. So if you aren't even into technology, not like a nerd like me, at least embrace the fact that we're at this, as you said, inflection point, or pivotal moment in human history. And I believe that, I'm not just saying this, where our every system is changing. And the paradigm shifts are from centralized to decentralized systems, or closed systems to open systems, are opaque to transparent. I mean, the shift is massive, and it will impact everyone in every industry in the way that people organize an exchange.
So first and foremost, just recognize that and whether it's a blockchain or we call it something else, or it just is more broadly decentralization, it's really impacting everything and working with multiple technologies. And I find that exciting.
So the second point is, I approach it from an abundance mindset, not a fear-based mindset. So we have a lot of narratives in the public discourse: fear-based narratives around technology, around automation, around change. You know, I give talks to rooms and it's 800 accountants saying, "Well, we no longer have a job," or it's, you know, people. That's the common question. And I think if you flip the mindset to an abundance mindset, saying, This is a technology that yes, it will change things. It's you know, autonomous trucking is getting rid of one of the biggest jobs in the United States. And while that's scary, that's also you know, if we do our part in creating more equitable systems, it could actually really make a difference in a lot of people's lives in a positive way. So those are the two things for me that excite me about this space and why I spend so much time working in it. And I hope that that's valuable to the listeners.
Andi Simon: Now. Tell us about the book and where they can get it.
Sam Radocchia: So the book, Bitcoin Pizza: A No-Bullshit Guide to Blockchain. It is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Google. Look at any of the standard outlets, as well as my website or you can go to Bitcoinpizza.com. I will say there's a surprise at the end of the book, or if you buy the hardcover, that allows you to get your hands dirty and get your hands on a pizza, and learn a little bit more about bitcoin and blockchain. So we've partnered with a great company to help you learn how to show us some of the tools.
Andi Simon: Giggling I am, if we can bring it down to, you can buy a better pizza and have it at your house and pay with bitcoin and not worry about anything. The dots, though, are coming together into something that is bigger than just simply a little of this. It's not an incremental-ism. This is transformational-ism. And people think about the future. We were just rated in the top 20 futurist podcasts. And I didn't know I was a futurist. But that's the third time in the last two months I've been called a futurist.
So there's something about the better future of work, the future of production, the future of transportation, about restaurants, not having people eat in them, but having them prepare food to be delivered to their home. There's some interesting dots that when you connect that are really exciting.
Sam Radocchia: They are so exciting, there also, again, they bring up a lot of anxiety for people like even that example, when you say, okay, if restaurants become these shadowed kitchens that just deliver different brands to you that don't actually exist. What, well, what was that? I mean, eating is such a culturally important and significant thing in human society, like, that's the bait. So what happens if people are no longer gathering in communal spaces to do this, and so what excites me and what I am working on is using this technology to reinforce the connections with yourself, with your community, with other people and with the products you consume, and with the environment.
So as we see, both, you know, the gaps and all these exciting things happening and questions around the future of all of these different areas of society and life, there is so much room to make those experiences better, and restore those connections that maybe the internet and social media and other technologies kind of went haywire and pulled them apart. So, I'm really optimistic and excited for the future. I think that's the only way we can be, and have that mindset, and use all of our powers and of storytelling and of building and listening to make a better future.
Andi Simon: It's been such a pleasure, I'm so glad you came back to share with us. I'm glad you wrote the book because it's a great book. And I also think that there's a great transformation coming that you can find blockchains for the better. But also, the future becomes optimistic and not terrifying. You know, you might as well wrap your arms around it and stop wishing to go backwards.
Every client who hires us starts out by asking us to help them change and immediately tells us why we don't do it that way. We say, "Well, that's the whole point. Don't do it that way. It's time to change." "But I don't know how to change." "Well, just let's go with the flow a little bit and open your mind."
Now we started with a quote from Albert Einstein: “The world as we have created is a process of our thinking. It's a story in our mind, and it cannot be changed without changing our thinking.” Today, it was all about thinking together. It was Sam Radocchia and I will tell you, her book is fantastic. So pick it up on either an electronic book or a hardcover. And then maybe we can figure out how to make it.
I'm also an anthropologist, and as Sam will tell you, our job is to help you step out and see what's happening and better understand it. So keep sending us your emails at info@Simonassociates.net and keep coming back and sharing with us the ideas that you have so we can share them as well. Thanks so much. Have a great day. Bye now. When you share it around and I can help you enough to see, feel and think in new ways, and if that's about the future, then I am happy to be a futurist.
**Hear how telling each other stories helped us evolve**
My audience knows how much I like to learn about early human evolution and how we continue to adapt to changing times. Thanks to my former PR guru, Sarah Wilson, I was introduced to Byron Reese, who is a futurist, an author and an entrepreneur. He tends to see things through that fresh lens I always talk about. Byron’s new book (his fourth) is called, Stories, Dice, and Rocks that Think: How Humans Learned to See the Future—and Shape It. This is a fascinating book that provides a new look at the history and destiny of humanity. Storytelling allows us to envision the future. Dice teach us about probability, which enables us to try to predict the future. And rocks that think—a reference to a computer’s CPU—enable us to build the future. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
From our very beginnings, we've been a very different type of being.
I wasn’t quite sure what Byron's book is about until I opened the first pages and began to wander with him through the still unanswered questions about how humans became these amazing creatures with story-making minds, the ability to think and then converse about their ideas, and the wherewithall to develop cultures that we can share, change and believe to be our best realities.
As humans, the one thing we must do is see the future.
All other animals live in the moment. Perhaps some have evolved genetic capabilities that enable them to survive in different environments—like the 40,000 ant species that populate the world. But humans are one species,
and we know we have a past and a future. That future is important. We know we are not immortal. Do other animals plan for the afterlife? Develop religions? Think big philosophical thoughts? From our thinking came our language, and conversations that are essential to our being and our survival.
I invite you to listen in or read the transcript of our conversation because it's fascinatin. Just remember, you have a unique place on this earth. Treat it, and yourself, kindly.
If you'd like to connect with Byron, you can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook and his website, and you can email him at byronreese@gmail.com.
For more about storytelling and how the future shapes us, start here
Blog: What Is Futurism And Do You Need It?
Blog: How Storytelling Can Transform Your Culture And Energize Your Team
Podcast: Now Is No Time To Be Afraid Of This Blurry Future
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. As you know, I'm your host and your guide, and my job is to get you off the brink. I want you to soar. But the only way you can do that is if you can see, feel and think in new ways so that you can change what you've been doing. The times are changing, and we're futurists. We need to see what's coming and begin to make stories up about them. That's what Simon Associates does. And that's about all the advertising I'm going to tell you about. Our job is to help you change. People hate to change.
Today, I found a marvelous, marvelous person who came to me through my PR firm of the past: Sarah Wilson. Byron Reese is amazing. Let me tell you about him and then he'll tell you about your new self. And I love his face. Byron is an Austin-based entrepreneur with a quarter century of experience building and running technology companies. It's gonna be interesting listening to how he's applied it in his new book today. The new book is called Stories, Dice, and Rocks that Think, and don't kid yourself: we're going to be talking a lot about how humans learn to see the future and shaping our conversation for today.
He's a recognized authority on AI, and holds a number of technology patents. He's also a futurist. Now, this podcast has been ranked among the top 20 futurists podcasts. I didn't know I was a futurist. But I like to help you see that future. And if you can't see it, you can't live today.
Byron gives talks around the globe about how technology is changing work, education and culture, like everything. And it's fun to think about it. He's an author of four books. But today, I think we're going to talk about this new one because it adds some dimension to all the others that he's put together. Byron, thank you for joining me today.
Byron Reese: Thank you for having me.
Andi Simon: It's so much fun to share with the listener, or the viewer. Who is Byron Reese? Give us your journey so we can talk about how you got here because everything had a little of the past, a little of the future, and a lot of hard work to come. Tell us about your book, Stories, Dice, and Rocks that Think. How did Byron come up with it?
Byron Reese: Well, I've always been in technology, because I've always been really interested in it. I'm not a gadget person, but I'm really interested in the idea of technology. And it's this thing we kind of discovered as a species that allows us to amplify what we're able to do without it. There was a time that we think we hit a genetic bottleneck a long time ago, and there were just 1,000 or 2,000 humans left and nobody would have bet on us then. And here we are. It's because we learned that trick about technology.
And so I've always just been really intrigued by the idea of technology. And so I've done that as a business. And then I started writing. Every morning before I got to work, I would just start writing and those became the books that I wrote. And they're just kind of my own journey of what I think about and I find interesting.
Andi Simon: Well, you don't sort of just stumble into being an AI or a patent expert in technology. Was this important as you were growing up, did you have particular role models or aha moments, or things that just started making you curious?
Byron Reese: I grew up on a farm in East Texas, outside of a town with only 500 people. So it was not an area steeped in technology. But my father had a corporate job for 30-something years, and his father worked in the railroad and his father operated a ferry. And when I looked back, it always seemed like they kind of did the thing that epitomized their times. It was the Western migration, and then the railroad, and then just the corporate thing that came up and unemployment and all of that, and I knew growing up that you could just tell it was technology.
And so I went to college and met my wife or the woman who would become my wife, and we moved to the Bay Area, to be a part of that energy that was in the 90s. And we did that for a while. And then when we decided to start a family, we moved back to Texas, to Austin, and we raised and homeschooled our children. And that's me.
Andi Simon: That's a very interesting story, your reflection on how each of your parents, grandparents, and so forth, was reflecting the times in which they were living. You in some ways are reflecting the times that we're living in now, which I would not have thought about, but if the listener or viewer is listening and watching: think about it. Where are you now because of where we are now as a society?
This book, though, has a particular purpose. And I think it would be good to talk about, it's not a textbook, it is a history of humankind in a very important way, which should give the listener and the viewer some time to think about the times that we are in. Because somehow, 50,000 years ago, we had a quantum leap in our brain. And we are just like any other animal. Remember, we are one species, there are 40,000 different ant species. That's how they have mutated and populated the world. We're just one.
And we probably can be intimate with anyone across the globe, which is sort of an interesting phenomenon. But we also can see the future and anticipate our mortality, and look back on the past and worry about our memory. Was it right? Was it wrong? And was it different than what actually happened? So we are an interesting human. Let's talk about Byron. How did this book begin to develop? And let us talk about the three phases that so fascinated you.
Byron Reese: They're very interested in the question of why. Why we're different from animals, because you'll always hear: we're just another animal. But when you look around the world, it doesn't look that way. It really looks like we're aliens. And everything else is kind of native. But we're very different in our cities and literature and all that. And we really got curious why that happened.
And the short answer is, we believe in two things that don't exist. We believe in the future and the past. And animals don't. That's a contentious statement, but I try to justify it in the book. And what we do is, we have what's known as episodic memory, where we remember specific things that happened to us, which animals don't. They don't make predictions into the future, maybe just a minute into the future. Maybe I'm thinking, Okay, I want to climb that tree and get an apple. What's the best way to do it? Those sorts of things.
And those were, I think, the first stories we told ourselves. They were in fiction, they were like us. We think that way. We kind of picture these different things, very different from other creatures. The coolest thing I learned writing this book is probably that it was a creature that lived before it's called Homo Erectus. And Erectus lived on this planet 1.6 million years, 80,000 generations, and simply had one tool: the hand axe. It looks like a big arrowhead. And that's it. And no matter when you find these, on which of three continents you find them, they're all alike.
And that's really mysterious because you would think if in 80,000 generations, everybody was just copying their parents, then eventually they would, like the telephone game, they would just change and in different regions, but they didn't. They're all identical. And what does that mean? It means Erectus didn't know they were making those tools, the way a bird doesn't know they're building a nest, they just do it. But it isn't something that they know how to do. It's not a cultural object, or technological object, it's a genetic object. You see a beaver, if you put a recording of music, of running water in the middle of the field, and a beaver walks by the dam over it, they don't really know what they're doing, but they know how to build that one dam.
So, you think about that: 80,000 generations where nothing happened. And then you think about us. We only took three generations to get from Kitty Hawk to the moon. And you realize we are a very different thing. And I kind of think it's this for millions of years, billions of years: the only place we had to write down what we learned was in our DNA. It took millions of years to write one new thing. And then one day, we got what you talked about: language, 40,000-50,000 years ago, and all of a sudden we can think and that's really the power of language. It organizes your thoughts. It's not mere speculation. There's a wonderful quote in the book from Helen Keller, who talked about what her life was like before her teacher came and how she didn't know she was a person. She didn't know she was a discrete thing in the universe. So we got language.
Andi Simon: Listen for a second, because I think that for my audience, I know that this is a curious question. We were able to sync and not necessarily communicate our thoughts. And I think that when you are walking in the woods, and there's nobody to talk to, but you're thinking, and you're doing just what our ancestors were doing, then the question always is, and I was fascinated by your effort to try and explain how did that happen, where all of a sudden we went from our thoughts to be able to share our thoughts. And how would they know what those words meant? And was there a quantum leap in the DNA of everyone at the time to be able to understand language? We have, you know, different languages, but they're all very similar in structure. Is it part of our acquired DNA? I mean, this is not simple stuff, because it's really quite interesting about how we took the thinking and turned it into a conversation that you and I can understand each other's meaning.
Byron Reese: Yes, absolutely. And of course, we have to speculate a little. And so there's four or five different ideas on how that could have happened. I tend to believe that there was a mutation that happened in one person one time, you know, on some Tuesday morning at 8:30, or something like that happened, that his or her progeny may have inherited. And that's the capacity to think.
In language, you see, we don't really have any organs for language. We have to repurpose organs we use for other stuff to be able to do this. And if in fact, language did begin in just one person, in one of these little lonely bands of 100-150 people, then after a few generations, when it had spread among them, they would be superheroes, and they would have superpowers, and they would very quickly displace everything else that didn't have capacity for language. And that's why it looks like it appeared everywhere, all at once. But I think that's what must have happened because human universals. There are a couple of hundreds of these things that all human cultures have.
Andi Simon: Yes. Now, the interesting part is, I got fascinated by the cave art, that all of a sudden, we went from no cave. Africa has practically nothing that looks like the European or the Asian cave art that came at a period of time. And it's not stick figures. And even in the Americas, there's amazing art that all of a sudden emerges at once. And we say, How did that happen? You know, your point is that an alien is not so crazy.
Talk to us about art, about music, about the flute, the things that emerge and seem to say something about who those people were, who created it, and how they shared something that was difficult to share across continents of that time. And all sudden it all at once. Even getting to Australia. I mean, there's something there worth sharing, more than just reading the book, because I love those stories. That's what makes me go, Oh, how did that happen? What happened? And how did it happen?
Byron Reese: You're right, there were no precursors of anything like representative art. And if you look at some of these caves, they are beautiful. I mean, it's just beautiful. I would frame that and hang it on my wall. But the thing to keep in mind is, it wasn't just that they could do that beautifully. It was high tech, like literally, because they were using fat to make the pigments and here they weren't using the power to extend them. For black, they could have used charcoal. They had charcoal in the fire 20 feet away. But it wasn't black enough evidently. And so they figured out a new way to make black pigment using a mineral they had to heat 1200 degrees, which was hard to do and the closest source was 240 miles away.
So they had to be mindful enough to go. They had to build scaffolding too and then to your point, digging in those caves in Chile is amazing because it's like King Tut's tomb. It was sealed off and we found it and the footprints, like a boy and his dog or sand, like in the kitchen. But when you excavate those times, you're right, we find musical instruments. The oldest ones we have at the exact same time, and we find the representative art at the exact same time. So whatever gave us language, I think really did a lot more than that. I mean, it made us, and your remark about aliens, I think might be a reference to something in the book where every time I mentioned this to people, they would obviously have bet it's aliens. And it isn't that people think it's aliens, but it is so dramatic and invites something like that.
Andi Simon: That makes you ask how, and the problem is, we want answers. And the problem is, we don't have any. And then there were the Neanderthals and Denisovans, and others who looked similar but didn't survive the same way. We still have our DNA, they have their DNA. And so, you know, they were there. But it's a really interesting set of questions.
So your point about our ancestors having a DNA that allowed them to produce the same tool everywhere they were, and then humans began to create variety and tremendous ingenuity across the globe. However, we expanded, and then came the Middle Ages and something transformative developed. And I think I'd like to move on a little bit. I mean, that's a lot of time to go from the starting point to major transformation. But I don't care if it's Michelangelo or anybody else in 1716 or 1617: something happened that changed us. Probability theory? What happened?
Byron Reese: What happened is, we got this capacity for language, which we then use to imagine these stories that were very mundane. They were just moments ahead. And later, we started articulating them. But once we could imagine the future, we weren't content with that. We're not a particularly contented species. And we weren't competing with that. And we didn't want to just leave the picture, we wanted to know what was going to happen. We wanted to predict it. And that seems like a tall order. But that's what happened.
And we, in 1654, these two men, de Fermat and Pascal are writing these letters, they're trying to solve this math problem that is trivially simple. I won't even bore you with it, other than to say, a 10-year-old could solve it. And this is a math problem. The great minds of Europe had worked on it for 100 years. And they needed a new way to think about the future. And that's what they did. And they did it: probability theory. And then, man, it just all happened, you had the first probability textbook within eight years. And the whole modern world, artificial intelligence is just probability theory. High speed, like, it's all, that's what it is, we invented that.
And the reason it took so long is because we had to figure out why the future happened the way it did. I mean, a futurist is really that people try to understand why the future unfolded this way, not that way, if I may have a visual aid. There were all different theories on why things happened the way they did. They were destined to happen, and they were fated to happen. Or they can only happen that way.
Andi Simon: Or we don't have a clue.
Byron Reese: What they never guessed was this: So this is probably something you may have seen at a science museum before. This is a paper full of BBs, I'm about to flip it. And when I do that, the BBs are gonna fold down and they're gonna hit these things. And they can bounce to the left, to the right, and then they'll hit another one. They can bounce to the left or the right, left to the right. And what happens is, every time you do it, you get a normal curve. You can do this all day long. And this is the thing nobody ever imagined was in randomness.
Even to this day, if you were to ask me, If you flipped the coin 1000 times, how many times will heads come up? I know how to answer that: 500. But I mean, I've never done it. And I didn't know how to answer it. I would have said, who knows, maybe 100. And then the next time 908, 105, 100. But the chances that it's ever under 400, or more than 600, or one in many billions. It's never happened, it never will happen.
And so you think about the most random thing: imagine a coin toss that you can say something that confident about it. And that's the basis of probability theory: you can assign probabilities to things in the future.
Andi Simon: I love reading Martin Seligman, his work on humble perspectives. And as I often work with my clients, I tell them that if you want to live today, you have to have some visualization of what tomorrow is gonna bring. Because if not, we will have a very difficult time. You can do the habits of yesterday. We're very happy with them, and comfortable with our habits. But tomorrow isn't going to be like yesterday and may move slowly or quickly.
I mean, the pandemic was so catalytic because it showed everybody how in a moment, everything can change, and without any control or decision-making or probability...although I suspect some people have had a probability theory that that was going to happen. But it is an interesting phenomenon for humans because we need to know what's coming in order for us to prepare for it by living now.
The past has given us experiential, but we only remember parts of that, not every memory. And if you talk to people about what happened on X day, when we were all together, they each have a different story. And the creativity is that they fit the story into their own stories. And so the story reflects them. They're all the heroes in it, but not really necessarily what the truth is. My favorite quote is, "The only truth is there is no truth."
And so then we begin to think about what came out of then, a great creativity there, and then came along your computers and the modern age, more or less, whatever is going on now. And what's coming into the future. Mr. Futurist? What do you see coming? And how are you getting folks to prepare for the uncertainties that are coming next? What do you see happening?
Byron Reese: When we got our cognitive eye opening, remember earlier I talked about the only place we had to write things was in our DNA? Well, suddenly, we had a new place. We could write stuff. We could write it in our DNA, but we could also write it just in our head. And that became our DNA. Instead of taking 100,000 years to learn not to eat the purple berries, I could just say, Hey, man, don't eat those purple berries, they'll make you sick. And that's it. That's it, that was a mutation about to spread. Everybody can say, Those purple berries are bad.
Well, there's an old essay called iPad that was written seven years ago, where a guy points out, Nobody knows how to make a pencil. There's not a person alive who knows every step of making every part of the pencil, and yet pencils get made, even though nobody knows how to make it.
So what has happened in the computer age is, we now know that with writing and computers, the human story is that people will learn stuff, and then they die. And then it's forgotten. Then somebody else comes along, learns something, and then they die, and it's forgotten. Or maybe they told somebody but then they messed it up. And our whole species just kind of resets every generation, a few things filter down but for most things are forgotten.
And I think that's what's really going to change is that, I'm gonna have a toothbrush that will tell me if I've got the flu virus in my mouth. And I mean, I want that toothbrush, and it will collect data. And I will have the spoon that will tell me the nutrition of every bite I have. That's collecting data, right? And so it can tell me, Oh, you're not getting enough, whatever. And one after the other. And I think that's kind of what we're building.
When we just had probability theory, we basically had paper and pencils, and cycles. That was it. And so between 1654, when we invented probability, to 1954, the world we built, we built with paper. And now, we said, We want to do this, like, on a massive scale, even beyond our own ability. So I think that's what we do. We're collecting evermore data. And we're going to use that data to record the life experiences of everybody, and use those to make everybody else's life better. So that in the future, everyone will be wiser than anyone who's ever lived because everyone will have at least access to this knowledge base.
In the book, I guess, all these examples of things that we couldn't have seen in the day, like iodine and salt, because so people wouldn't get goiter. But they didn't know this whole country had an iodine deficiency. And when they measured the average IQ, it went up four points and in some parts of the country, went up 15 points from that one thing in the south, which had a corn based diet, there was niacin deficiency, and we started fortifying corn flakes with niacin. And then that went away. And then we used to put stuff in things like lead. Lead paint and lead constantly and we didn't know, there just wasn't any data.
There was no such thing as data before for 16 people. It didn't exist. Why would it? What would you have ever done with data for 16 people? And now, if we had handled the data, you would have been able to see all that stuff in that data. And that is a speculation. I mean, there's an antidepressant called Wellbutrin that after some number of years of being used, some people said, you know, my cravings for cigarettes went down. They studied and they found out, Wow, that's a smoking cessation drug. Very good. They repackaged it down, and, and so forth.
So there's everything in the data. But we don't yet have the tools. We have the computers to do it now, like we have processor power. But we don't really have the tools to cope with the kinds of datasets that are being automatically built to try to build this knowledge base.
Andi Simon: For a number of years, I taught a course for the Society for Healthcare Strategy and Market Development, and it was called Your Data's Talking to You, Can You Hear It?, because healthcare strategists had an abundance of data points. I'm an anthropologist. Anthropologists are taught early that out of context, data do not exist. And consequently, that abundance of stuff needed to be turned into a story.
And I work with them on, Which story are you going to tell to the leadership of your organization, to the middle management, to the physicians? How are you going to craft those data points so one size doesn't fit anyone, because the first thing that doctors start to do is delete your data. The data is wrong. It's the way you crafted a story, using the data to help you see, feel and think about that in a different fashion.
And Byron is right, because you know, the computers can't think, maybe they're getting there, but they can't. They can accumulate all of this data, but they can't really interpret it, or craft a story for you. So our uniqueness takes us back to the beginning of our conversation. Think. And if we can think with better insights to what's happening, what could we think about that could be transformative about our society?
You know, he writes about education and culture, and it works well, like everything. And how do we think about coming out of pandemic time in a way that gives us an amazing opportunity. I always tell people, Don't waste a crisis. Humans hate to change. The amygdala loves to hijack new ideas. The cortisol comes flying out the minute there's something new. So as you're listening to us, I bet you're saying, Oh, no, and I'm saying, Yes. And begin to think through what's possible. You know, Byron, we’ve had such a good time, but I think it's time we wrap up a couple of things you don't want our listeners to forget.
Byron Reese: The book has one of the purposes of stories, which I accumulated over a couple of years, just reading storybooks. When I was working on this book, I would write it in the mornings, but in the evenings, I read storybooks. And I would just try to figure out what purpose is the story serving, and I think I came up with 20. But if you read the epilogue, one page long, there is a secret 21st purpose that is the biggest one of all when it's the stories that give life meaning.
And there's these two different narratives of our lives. One is that, you know, we're just kind of like big bags of chemicals and electrical impulses that careened through space and bumped into other big bags. And then we fizzle out and are forgotten. That's a story and it robs everything of any meaning permanently.
But there's another one that says that your life is not that. All life has inherent worth. And that your life is not a domino rally of minute after minute after minute after minute, but that all of the moments of your life are kind of connected in a sequence that tells a story. And can I close the book by asking, who is telling that story?
Andi Simon: Well, in that you're leading to something real important, I'm gonna put the book up again soo the folks can see. There we go: Stories, Dice, and Rocks that Think. And it's how humans learn to see the future and shape it. And I think that, from my perspective, what I would like our listeners to walk away with other than to go by the book, is reading with this open mind and being curious. I think it's our curiosity that has become so essential for us to see things through a fresh lens, and to begin to understand.
If I hadn't worked with company after company that get stuck or stalled, I'd say to you, Piece of cake, the times have changed, we just adapt. But humans are so convinced that what they do today is the way we should do it, that they forget that we would have never done it that way over all of these centuries. You know, maybe Homo Erectus did the same things with this Chilean tool exactly the same way because it was DNA driven.
But for us, we're creators, and we're story makers. And as we listen to each other's stories that capture the insights that come, and begin to see your own life with different purpose and different opportunity, the one thing that we often say in here is that we are mortal. We know that. And that changes the dynamics. Does my dog know to live everyday in the moment? People say, Live in the moment. It's hard to do that because we can see what's coming, even if we're not sure. So where should they buy your book, Byron?
Byron Reese: All of the usual places.
Andi Simon: And if you buy it on Amazon and like to write reviews, it is a great place to put in a little. It's a great book. And I think you're going to enjoy reading it and reflecting on our own next step. Because if you spent the past year thinking about the future, and the future is here for us to create. And I do think that it's a time of great creativity, and don't waste a crisis because it's a time for you to think in new ways. Thank you. Do you also speak and consult? Are there other things that you can offer our listeners?
Byron Reese: Yes, I do. I speak when I'm invited. And that's most of what I do. I'm writing another book, which is due in 33 days, because I've got a big countdown clock on my mantle.
Andi Simon: I’m laughing because I could look to November 1. I thank you for taking time out to do this. And we'll do a podcast to discuss your next book and mine. But for now, thank you all for coming today. It's been absolutely a pleasure. Byron Reese wrote this great book, but he's coming up with his next one. But he reflects like I love to do on who we are as humans, where we've been and where we're going and how we're going to do better together. Because it's only together that we can go anywhere.
Humans love herds. And we love to be together. And it's hard to be alone. And loneliness often comes from living alone. You send me great emails and you send me great people you want me to interview. It's info@Andisimon.com. And you can find my books there and everything else. And we love to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can change, so come along and send us your thoughts. Have a great day. Thank you again.
Hear how your hoped-for success starts with self-awareness
As I continue to share with you some of the great podcasts I've done with amazing women over the five years of On The Brink, I'm re-posting my interview with Jodi Flynn, a remarkable woman who is helping other women succeed. She's also the bestselling author of Accomplished: How to Go from Dreaming to Doing. You will hear how Jodi's system of self-assessment reveals how your unconscious often creates negative chatter in your mind that tells you that you don’t have what it takes, keeping you from living the life you know you are meant to have. Learn from Jodi's wisdom and see if you too can have an aha moment that opens up all kinds of possibilities for you.
Think about where you want to go and then get there
Jodi's approach helps strong, Type-A women let go of their stress so they can truly believe in themselves, and with clear vision and confidence, take positive actions that will help them achieve the success they want.
During our conversation, you will learn how to remove the barriers that keep you from having the experiences you know you were meant for...whether that's gaining more clients, growing your team, winning awards and recognition in your industry, getting that promotion, speaking, podcasting, writing a book. If you’ve dreamed it, listen to this podcast to see if you can actually achieve it — with a little of Jodi’s help.
About Jodi
Jodi Flynn is the founder of Women Taking the Lead, a podcast and community of ambitious entrepreneurial women who want to go BIG. She helps her clients see how extraordinary they are and then set priorities and develop an action plan so they can achieve their biggest goals with ease. To connect with Jodi, you can find her on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and her Women Taking the Lead website.
Key takeways to help with your own life and career:
- How Jodi's constant fear of judgment and being wrong held her back
- How she used “small bursts of courage” to push herself out of her comfort zone, allowing her to be more successful in her corporate career
- The importance of self-awareness in leadership to better assess others
- Being aware of personal limits to consistently stay in a healthy mindset
- Choosing the right team
- The importance of taking care of your mind, body and emotions to perform at your best
- Focusing your attention on one thing at a time
Want more on how to believe in yourself and your capabilities? Here are 3 great podcasts
- Rose Fass—The Most Important Conversation Is The One You Have With Yourself
- Shellye Archambeau—How You Can Be Unapologetically Ambitious
- Maria Lizza Bowen—Do You Feel Stuck? Time To "See, Feel And Think In New Ways"
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. I'm an anthropologist who works with organizations that need and want to change. I'm also an author of an award winning book,On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights that you can find on Amazon, and in all kinds of formats. Our podcast is designed to help take the themes of that book and expand them, multiply them in all kinds of ways and bring you close to people who are in fact on the brink and changing in very transformational ways.
I have with me today Jodi Flynn. Now I've done a podcast on Jodi Flynn's podcast, and you need to look her up on womentakingthelead.com. Jodi is really an inspiration. A little bit about her background, and then I'm going to turn it over to her. Jodi is a founder of Women Taking the Lead, a podcast and a community of ambitious entrepreneurial women who want to go big. She's looking for women who are type A, who already are successful, but have not achieved the level of success that they would really like to achieve and then moving along. But sometimes it gets stalled. And we work with businesses often the same way. They've been growing great, and all of a sudden, they stall.
So Jodi helps her clients see how extraordinary they are and set the right priorities to get organized and into action, so they really can achieve their biggest goals with ease. She became an Amazon Best Selling Author with the release of her book, Accomplished: How to Go from Dreaming to Doing. Welcome, Jodi, and thanks for joining me today.
Jodi Flynn: Andi, it's so great to be here. I'm so glad we're back having a conversation again, this time focused on your community. And so for those of you who are listening, we're so glad you could join us. This is going to be all about you.
Andi Simon: Well, from two women who are a little type A and who both accomplished great things, I'm going to share all of our little wisdom. So let's start with Jodi. Tell us about your story. Clearly, you have arrived and are moving. You want to share it. Tell us how this whole thing happened? What's your journey?
Jodi Flynn: It's really funny when you hit a certain age and people are like, What's your journey? You're like, What do I leave out? But I think I can sum it up by hitting the high points. I was a very shy child. I had a hard time talking to people when I was out in public. With my family, closest friends at home, it was fine. I could be myself and be exuberant and my natural self was in full effect. But when I would go to school or go out to work, and then off to college, I was held back. I would hold myself back because I was afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing. It was a little bit of social anxiety.
And so I spent a lot of those years stressed out, and that caused me to be exhausted. So I would say, although I was a good student, I did not feel like I was very accomplished until I could kind of get over myself and my ego and stop worrying about what other people were thinking and doing. Because the reality is, most people are so busy, they're barely paying attention.
Andi Simon: Now Jodi is telling you something you would never ever know if you were looking at her, like I am, and listening to her talk the way she does. So keep telling us, what happened? And how did you overcome this exhausting, stressed out, I can't talk to people?
Jodi Flynn: It was a series of events. There were some books I read, like Don't Sweat the Small Stuff and The Four Agreements that helped me to see things from a different perspective. When I said, Get over myself, I think that really started with Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, and it's all small stuff. And then I just had some experiences where I realized like, oh, people do want to hear what I say. People do appreciate my perspective. So I started taking some risks and that's what you have to do.
When you do feel like you're kind of tight in a box and you're not fully being yourself, you're not living the life you want to live. You do have to take some risks. So I would just take some small risks, I call them small bursts of courage. I would take these small bursts of courage, I would take action. And the feedback I got was really great. And it allowed me to explore more and more just being my authentic self out into the world until finally, when I was in my corporate career, I just felt like I was rocking and rolling. It was in my corporate career that I put a lot of what I learned into action.
And you know, for anyone who may have read the book already, a lot of the stories I draw upon are from my journey from high school to college, my corporate career, all the things that helped me to learn to just be myself and put my skills, talents and experience out into the world. And it manifested in a few different ways that we'll probably talk about a little more, but it started small and grew from there.
Andi Simon: Now, since your book has those stories, can you share one or two in that corporate vein? I have a hunch a lot of women listening are going to be in that corporate zone and want to know, What did she discover? And how come I can't get rid of the small stuff?
Jodi Flynn: So one of the things I discovered, because my bachelor's was in psychology, and I was actually three credits shy from achieving my master's in counseling psychology, but I'd known for well over a year, I did not want to have my master’s in counseling or to be doing counseling. But long story short, I never pictured myself working in the corporate environment. I thought I would be working with people one-on-one, or maybe in small groups. And so when I was looking for it, I needed to pivot because I wasn't going to complete my master's. So I took an entry level position just to pay the bills.
And I remember when I was looking at job postings, now this was back when you would look them up in the paper, I'm dating myself a little bit. I was afraid to apply for jobs that paid well, because I didn't feel like I had anything to offer a company. I had my psychology degree. I had just about finished my master's in counseling. In my view, the corporate world would not value what I had to offer, which the reality is, I didn't value what I had to offer. And I put that story on my future employers.
So I took a job that paid very little. It was one of the lowest paying corporate jobs. You could take the entry level. And it was when I entered that corporate arena, like within six years, I would get promoted five times. What I learned along the way was, it wasn't my schooling that was my value, it was my intrinsic abilities, my ability to listen, to work in a team, to get along with a lot of people, to get buy-ins from others. I was organized, I was hard-working, and I was ambitious. If there was an opportunity to rise through the ranks for me, it was like a game. I'm like, Alright, this is a corporate game we're playing. The next level is this, this is what's required to achieve that level, I'm going to move towards that.
Andi Simon: Now, the game metaphor should not be underestimated, because you didn't take yourself too seriously, but seriously enough, because we play games all the time. Adults love to play professional games and all kinds of games. But when you said the word game, what came to mind is how I often use games to help people relax. And my goodness, they can create and they perform well as long as it's not serious. And all of a sudden, you found a way of visualizing yourself that said, I can play this game. It isn't really about what I can't do, but I can really play it well. So where did it take you?
Jodi Flynn: Oh, my goodness. So I was in mutual fund operations. And I eventually became the Assistant Vice President of Corporate Quality. I started just opening up new accounts, kind of like anyone who works in a bank or financial institution would. You get the application, enter the information on the system, send it along, and the next one pops up. Very rote. And then it turned into ultimately, I had a job that perfectly suited my personality. It was all about inspiring and motivating other people, bringing out their best even though they weren't in a job that they would have said like, Oh, I dreamed about this from the time I was 10 years old. It wasn't about being in your dream job, it was about doing your best, getting the most out of it. Like forming strong relationships with the people around you and working together as a team towards something greater. And that was incredibly fulfilling. So ultimately, what ended up happening was, I put myself in my dream job even though initially it was just an entry level job to pay the bills while I figured out what I wanted to do.
Andi Simon: No, but you know, both in your book and in the podcast, you're exploring: How do we learn what we are? Because you said it so well, I can't aspire to this job or to be able to help people to be better teammates if I didn't even know that was possible, or in some way, anyone paid for that, or there was a need for it. So this self-awareness piece is not to be underestimated. You had a big mirror going along that you kept looking at and it echoed back. You know, talking about how you help people with their self-awareness, because this is something you're doing now a great deal, right?
Jodi Flynn: And it's all self-awareness. Andi, I'm sure you can relate to this too when you meet somebody who is self-aware versus somebody who is not very self-aware. The results that each one of them is getting is night and day. So self-awareness, as leaders, we're very focused on the people around us. But it starts with you having to understand your own motivations, your own values, your own emotions, and I can't underscore that enough. Emotional Intelligence starts with your own ability to recognize the emotions that you're feeling and managing them. And when you're able to recognize what's going on with you, you're better able to recognize what's going on with others.
Andi Simon: So with my clients I will often say to them, "The success you want, the happiness you want, the life you want, it all starts with you." But when you do have a really good understanding of yourself, it will ripple out and you will find that you intuitively know how to interact with others. Now, do you have a mirror for them when you're working with people or other key little triggers that people might take away from the podcast and say, Ah, I missed that. I haven't really looked at myself with fresh eyes in a while. What do you help them do?
Jodi Flynn: Oh, my goodness there's so much going on, and yes, in the podcast, because my guests like you are just amazing people. I ask the same questions of my guests every time but their answers are all different and the conversation goes from there. I'll have people who regularly listen to the podcast where all of a sudden, I'll hear from them and get an email and be like, This podcast was amazing. When she said this, it totally resonated with me. So I'm drawing out my guests their own experiences.
So my guests act as a mirror for the people who are listening to my podcast as well. I have an assessment that I use in my business. And when people are thinking about working with me, the first thing that I'll ask them to do is take this assessment. The assessment captures their perception of themselves, the people around them and the world at large. And so as we're debriefing their results, I can pick up certain traits that are going on like perfectionism, or focus on the past, or not feeling valued by others, or not feeling very connected to the people around them. It's really a mirror, but it's really meant to be a conversation starter.
Like, here's what it's showing, but it doesn't end there. What's your perspective on this? Tell me about this. Does this resonate with you? And from there, I get stories, and either that's me, or kind of, but it looks more like this. And it's just a tool we can use to get the conversation going, like engaging somebody in a conversation about themselves, like all of a sudden, you know, the aha moment. Like I'm snapping my fingers and those aha moments just start coming up like, "Oh, that's why I do what I do." Oh, that makes perfect sense. You know, type A people who are exhausted. I'm like, are you delegating? "Oh, is that why I feel so burdened and exhausted in my business?" Yes, yes. Because you're doing it all yourself.
Andi Simon: Now, they're successful women. And yet they need a moment where they can think about themselves in new ways. I'm thinking about my own career as we go through how often we get so focused on what the job is to get done, that we never take any time to reflect on how we're getting it done, or whether there's another way to get it done or whether it's not getting done. We're goal oriented and have a path and we're hopping on it and we're pushing forward and looking good, but it becomes important that how do they know when it's a good time to pause and come see Jodi?
Jodi Flynn: Usually what happens is, my clients are in a place where they're feeling like they're just doing too much work in their business, or that their business or their job is eating them alive. To some extent, it's not why they started their business and they don't feel good. It's interesting Andi, when we start working together, some of the same things I see—a lot of perfectionism. I do see a lot of, "I'm so driven for results that I took on these extra projects even when I didn't have time to do it. It wasn't a good idea but I was so driven and I wanted the results, and I wanted the win."
What comes up also is another theme with my women, it's in the podcast subtitle, is self-doubt. It's so interesting with the women I work with, they are successful. If you ask them, "Who in the room is more expert than you at what you're doing?" They'll say, "I'm the expert in the room. I do a better job than all of these people." What shows up in their work is, "I don't know if they'll like this. I don't know if it's good enough." The perfectionism will eat them alive.
So even though in one conversation, they can acknowledge, "I'm the expert, I can't think of anyone who can do a better job than me," on the other side of it, they're overworking themselves. Even though the scope of a project will say they'll deliver X,Y and Z, they're like maybe I should also do A, B, and C, because I don't feel like this is enough. They really want everyone to be wowed with their work, to feel okay.
You know, it's getting them to realize and look at themselves differently. "You are the expert in this conversation. This is who you are, everything you do is valuable." And so as we're talking, I'm having them do exercises, and also just report back in on different meetings and stuff like that. And getting them to recognize that everyone around them also sees them as the experts and are already wowed with what they're doing.
Andi Simon: It's very interesting listening because remember, you had your aha moment when you had a burst of an awareness. And in a sense, you're helping them have their aha moments when all of a sudden these smart people need to have a pause and take a good look at what's going on. In fact, we've all either worked with or had people working for us, or sometimes ourselves, realize that we're pushing the limits, not quite sure where the limits are. And we are convinced that we can, but sometimes it's not necessary. It's interesting.
I've been interviewing women CEOs for a book I'm working on, on how they can turn into great businesses. They do it differently. They do it with a lot of collaboration, a lot of teamwork, a lot of empowerment. And I'm wondering whether you're seeing a difference. I don't want to say those who are successful and can manage it and those who reach a stall point. I mean, is there anything that you're seeing that is interesting, that I should pay attention to as I'm doing my research on these wonderful women CEOs and entrepreneurs?
Jodi Flynn: Well, I'll agree with you that my clients start feeling a lot better when they start collaborating more, and delegating work and outsourcing, and hiring a team member as well.
Andi Simon: That is interesting because that's what I'm finding in the ones who do really well. When one second I can see what has to get done but I don't share with my guys and they go do it, and then they come back and they tell us how they've done it. And we talk about small wins. And then the next thing, and I can see where they have to go but they have to get it done. And it's done in a very exciting way. And our guys all seize control of it. Off they go. And she's fierce. And it's as if each one is telling me a different story along the same lines. They're different sharers, and they don't have to be all things to own. It's just very interesting. Sounds like you find the same things.
Jodi Flynn: Absolutely. I've seen that it looks a little bit different for each person. It's definitely a collaborating partnership, outsourcing. I had one client who when she hired me, she said to me, "I either need to sell my business or bring on a partner. And I've had a partner before and I didn't like it. It didn't go well." And so we kept it open. I said, "Okay, well, let's start and then we'll see where we end up. You'll probably make this decision in the long run." And by the time we were done working together, she did neither. Because what happened was, she started trusting her team. She had done a great job hiring people who knew what they were doing and so she allowed them to do it. She didn't go to the meetings as often. She started letting them meet with clients on their own.
Then there was this one day, we had a call and she had an epiphany that she wanted to share with me and I said, "Well what happened?" and she said, "They're better off without me. I'm in the way when I'm around." And what was really great was, because a couple of meetings before, I had said, "Okay, what are the long term goals? What should you be doing?" She said, "I should be doing visionary stuff. I should be hiring. I should be looking at long term strategy. I should take vacation because I haven't had a vacation in awhile."
So when she had the epiphany that her team did better when she wasn't around, I was like, "Great. Now you have all this time to now do the things that you know you need to be doing as the business owner." That was such a great feeling. And for other people, other clients, it might look like setting boundaries around certain relationships, like resetting expectations.
With relationships and outsourcing and delegating, and teams and partnerships, there's always a time where we need to come back and have a realignment, just like a car. We have to get everything aligned again. Are we on the same page? Maybe we should talk about our expectations, reset them, and that creates stronger relationships moving forward.
So, you know, as we get into that process, it's almost like in the beginning of our relationship when we start looking at relationships. What's it gonna take to get everything in alignment so it feels good? And we might do it a little bit again. What I want them to take away from it is, this is something you can continue to do because now you have the skills to identify when a relationship needs to be realigned and to do the work to get it there.
Andi Simon: Now, I will tell you that you have come a long way from that shy little girl who had trouble talking to people. Even as I'm thinking about my own business that we have grown over the last 15 years from a startup to really successful as a corporate anthropologist helping companies change and as a book author, we're global in nature, and we do a lot of culture change, and we really help people who are stuck. And there's nothing worse than not growing and not knowing how to.
It's just very interesting because when they have their aha moment, like your woman did, all of a sudden you can see their eyes light up. They just saw it with a whole new story and off they go. I get great vibes out of it. It's less about what I do, then how I help them do it. And it's a transformation.
So as transformers, we're coming to wind down our time. We wanted to start at the beginning with the things we want them to hear. But I'd like to end with some of the things we should remind them about. My first reminder here is that these are strong, successful women, but good enough may not be great enough. As you're thinking about where you're going, it might be a great time to do a Jodi Flynn and begin to think through, What am I missing? And how am I doing it? And where do we reflect? What are some of the aha moments you don’t want our viewers to forget?
Jodi Flynn: And you know, Andi, I'm gonna leave them with the basics because this is the thing, sometimes it's too simple for complicated minds. Oftentimes being type A or being ambitious, our minds are so complicated, that we overlook the key foundational things that will actually take us to the success that we desire.
So those things that I want to remind them about is: take care of yourself. You're not going to be successful if you're exhausted and overworked and burdened. Just be active in a way that feels good for you. Eat nutritiously by eating foods that you enjoy eating. Get good sleep, hydrate yourself, all the basics.
Then, pay attention to yourself and your own emotions and how you feel about certain things and your core values and what's important to you. And then I would say, these are really important baby steps that will get you to the destination that you seek. I have a client who told me she actually started implementing some of the things I talked about in the book and she had tripled her business. And I was like, Oh my God, and she isn't in the startup phase.
So right, let's acknowledge it's easier to triple your business when you're in startup phase. But it was still financially a significant amount of money. It was nothing to sneeze at. And I said, "Oh my God, what did you do?" She's like, "I focused on one thing a day. And as long as I got that one thing done, that day was a success. It's one thing every day. And before I knew it, my business had doubled. And then it tripled." And I was like, "That's beautiful."
Andi Simon: Wow. So the lesson learned: Let's focus on one thing a day, if that works for them, might not be perfect for everyone listening, but it is a simple sale. You know, let's not make it too complicated. We don't have to undo everything when we have to make a new you, we just have to slow down and focus. That's a great story. I have had with me a marvelous woman whom you need to know more about. Jodi, how could they get ahold of you, and tell them about where the book is and what your website is, and let's help them find you if they need to.
Jodi Flynn: Yes, my website is womentakingthelead.com. You can find all the different social media platforms on there, as well as the podcast and back episodes. And my book is Accomplished: How to Go from Dreaming to Doing and you can find that on Amazon.
Andi Simon: I've had with me Jodi Flynn, who's a wonderful, wonderful woman helping others do better and begin to think about how to dream and not get frustrated about what you can't do. Thanks for joining us at On the Brink With Andi Simon. Our podcast today has been such fun, come back for more. And send any requests or questions for me to info@simonassociates.net. You can find more at Andisimon.com. I look forward to hearing from you. Have a great day.
Hear how to change the way you and others think about you
In my look back at some of the great podcasts I've done with amazing women in our five years of On The Brink, I've wanted to highlight ones that really raised the bar in terms of innovative thinking and leadership. Today I'd like to revisit my interview with Sara Canaday from December 2017. Sara is the author of the thought-provoking bookYOU—According to Them: Uncovering the blind spots that impact your reputation and your career. She and I talk about how to make the critical move from manager to leader, and that the power to change the way you and others think about you is in your hands. By the end of the podcast, you'll have learned how to strengthen your leadership skills, improve key business relationships and bolster your performance. Enjoy.
We can be our own best coaches
Sara tells us that, unfortunately, we're not necessarily going to find people that will tell us what we need to hear at work. In her book, she chronicles what she considers to be some common yet nuanced blind spots that are holding people back in their careers. She emphasizes "nuanced" because these aren't obvious. As she descibes it, "This isn't the blowhard that likes to hear him or herself speak at meetings. This isn't the bully at work. These are more nuanced blind spots that are creating hidden hurdles for those who want to get ahead...very well-intentioned, well-meaning, very sharp individuals that simply can't see what's holding them back." Is this you? It might be all of us. Thankfully we have Sara to help us work through it.
Get to know Sara
Sara is a speaker, author and former corporate executive who helps companies arm their leaders with winning strategies that work. Her career spans more than 20 years, including senior executive positions in sales, operations and organizational development with USAA and Texas Mutual. After forming her own company, Sara began sharing her expertise in leadership development, executive presence, branding and emotional intelligence. Her insightful guidance has led hundreds of teams and individuals nationwide to make strategic changes with impressive results. To connect, you can find her on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, her website and her blog, or email her at sara@saracanaday.com.
Key points from our discussion:
- How emotional intelligence can be a real advantage as a business skill
- Helping high performers prepare for future leadership
- Assuming responsibility for ourselves as leaders by cultivating our own abilities
- Eliminating and reducing certain things in order to create new solutions and approaches
- The importance of cognitive diversity in companies
- Addressing blind spots that impact our careers and our effectiveness as leaders
Here's more on how to achieve all you can in your career:
- Blog: The Secret's Out: The Amazing Things Successful Women Entrepreneurs Share
- Blog: How To Be A Highly Effective Leader During Turbulent Times: The Five Things You Need To Know
- Podcast: Dave McKeown—The Need For Self-Evolved Leadership
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. As you know, I'm a corporate anthropologist and author of the award winning book by the same name, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. And in this podcast, we bring together experts, leaders, people who are really changing the way we are doing things and leading. So I invited Sara Canaday today who has been so gracious to join us to talk about the work she does with businesses and leaders so they can see, feel and think in new ways. You know, that's a bit of my mantra because if they can't see it in new ways, they don't know what it is. And if they don't feel it, they can't begin to adjust. And the times are moving so quickly now that we need to help leaders lead better. Sara, thanks for joining me today.
Sara Canaday: Happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Andi Simon: Why don't you tell our audience a little bit about your own background because your own career journey has led you to see things with fresh eyes.
Sara Canaday: It has, it has. Gosh, I really go back to even my years in university. And the reason I bring that up is I came from a town that was a smaller town, high school that was small in number and then went to a university with close to 60,000 students. At that point, I was a social security number, that was my identity. It was very difficult to compete, to rise to the top to get noticed. That was my first foray into recognizing that, given the playing field of sheer competitive intelligence, I know how there had to be some other ways to set yourself apart. And that was kind of my first glimpse into that idea.
And then upon graduating, I guess I liked the big number idea and I went to work for a company that you may know of: USAA in San Antonio, and that building at the time was the second largest building, the first being the Pentagon. So there again, I found myself in a sea of professionals, and knew that it was going to take more than a title, more than a degree, more than an advanced degree to get ahead. And I really had some great role models at the time in terms of leaders or colleagues. But I also had some models, if you will, that were not great. And I was very observant of the difference between the two, and what made some to be more motivational and influential as leaders, as in colleagues, and others fell short. So I was just a really keen observer through all that time, and also knew that it was going to take more than the technical tangible to move ahead.
Andi Simon: So simply having an MBA wasn't going to be sufficient, right?
Sara Canaday: And you know, I did the classic route, right, I worked my way up the corporate ladder. I was fortunate enough that at that particular company, they would pay for your MBA program if you worked full time. So I did take advantage of that opportunity. But even so, you hear it nowadays, is an MBA worth it because of the sheer competition and the fact that there are certain viral ideas and renegade approaches that have nothing to do with your education.
Andi Simon: So you learned early on that being smart by itself was necessary, but not sufficient. And as you and I were preparing for this, we were talking a little bit about the nuances and the intuitions. And what were some of the aha hours that you experienced that began to move you in a new direction?
Sara Canaday: I have to tell you that this idea of not being just smart, or having the know-how, really affected me personally because I would not describe myself then or now as the smartest person in the room. I am a hard worker. It always took a lot of effort and energy and diligence on my part to do well in school and to do well as a graduate student. It didn't come easy or natural to me. And actually, I was excited by that prospect. I was excited by the prospect that there were other things and gifts that maybe I did have that could help propel me forward. Those things were my intangible skills, things like my emotional intelligence and my insights into how people might respond to certain situations or to certain people, and my conscientiousness with how to adjust my behavior to better suit, manage and even influence others. So I have to be honest and tell you that it was kind of very personal, selfish and even it felt good to know that there was this other side that would actually serve me very well.
Andi Simon: But it sounds like a coming of age of Sara Canaday. Now, as you said, a couple of things, I'd like to dig a little deeper in because I think our audiences are also struggling with the same kinds of challenges. You know, they're smart, but maybe not the smartest. They get their degrees and come out of good schools but never seem to be necessarily moving along as they might like. One is emotional intelligence. And I must tell you, I know about it, but I'd love our audience to hear from you a little bit more about what this is, and why it's so important to have self-awareness of what your own style is in emotional intelligence. What does that mean, should it help us?
Sara Canaday: Sure, I think, you know the term, I think it turns people off in the business world, because we don't necessarily use emotion and business in the same sentence. And so for many of us, in fact, I think we were brought up in generations that were run from combining those two and we leave who we are at the door. We leave our personal business at the door. I think things have changed. But for the most part, there are sort of two ways to look at emotional intelligence and two schools of practice.
One is that emotional intelligence is your ability to read emotions in others and be able to recognize the emotions that you have that are bubbling to the surface. If you're in touch with your own emotions, and how those impact your decisions, your behavior, your outlook, then you're better equipped to see that in others. But there's another aspect of emotional intelligence and sometimes I use the term behavioral intelligence. To me, it's the more important aspect of EQ when it comes to work. How do we use the information about understanding our emotions and others, and adjust our behavior so that we can better relate to, understand and collaborate with the people we work with? That takes a lot of conscious effort because you're conscious about your own reactions, your own thoughts, but you're also conscious enough to understand and try to either prevent or adjust them in the moment depending on who you're working with, and what the situation is.
Andi Simon: Now in our experience as anthropologists working with leaders and companies that need or want to change, there are some key challenges that we often see in healthcare. For example, we watched people be promoted from a nurse to a nurse manager and they didn't know what to do. They became a nurse who now managed but didn't know quite what that meant. We've watched managers who now move into leadership roles, and are put there to change an organization. They look at me and roll their eyes because emotionally, they were good at something and now, technically, they may have all the head skills, but their body language, the communication. The next thing they know, they have a 360 coming back that says they don't have good social skills, and they don't read their teams. Well, you know, help me help them. What would you begin to help us share?
Sara Canaday: I think we do a disservice to people who are high performers because we assume that that performance is going to carry them to the next level. And what we do is we promote them. And then we try to train them. Even then, this huge responsibility of a new team, and we tell them to build a high performing team. Oh, and while you're at it, learn how to do that. Learn how to manage and learn how to be a leader. And so I think that's why companies now, a lot of them, have these high potential programs because they're seeing the benefit of focusing on these high performers and high potentials, and they are two different things. And they are infusing them with some really robust and concentrated learnings so that they can be ready to be the next generation of leaders.
And I think that's one of the best things that we can do now as individuals who see themselves as high performers or or merging leaders. I think the one thing they can do is to take better charge of their own development. It used to be that we would wait for companies to send us to training or we would wait to reach a certain level in the organization to avail ourselves of a 360-degree performance review, for example, nowadays, that kind of information. And that kind of resource is actually much more readily available than people would ever imagine.
Andi Simon: You can go online and do your own.
Sara Canaday: Right! It's not nearly as costly. I can just hear some emerging leaders say, Oh, yeah, but I can't spend thousands of dollars on an assessment or a career coach, and you don't have to. You can go find some assessments. Maybe they're $199. Maybe they're $200. But this is your career we're talking about. And usually they have development suggestions attached with their results. And there are some incredible resources out there that can help you close the gaps between what your report said and what you want for yourself as a leader.
Andi Simon: Now, if you continue along this thread: waiting for others to do to us and doing it ourselves is tied into how we really do learn. We're big experiential learners. We are active learners. I tell people, Until you experience it, you won't know what those words really mean. I know you do a lot of workshops on this. Can you begin to help me with a little bit of how you go about doing it? Because unless I see it, I don't know what the words are. If you tell me what to do, I'm not quite sure what that means. We do a lot of performance training, as if they're actors on a stage and they have to go and try it. Do you do some of the same kinds of things?
Sara Canaday: I wouldn't say that mine are as intensive or experiential, so to speak. What I do try to do is when we're talking about certain leadership competencies, I try to give examples that make those competencies come to life that people can hear, see, smell, to relate to what do those look like in action as a leader, give some examples of what it means to be good at interpersonal relationships.
What does it mean to have good emotional intelligence? An example I'll give you is, people with a refined sense of good emotional intelligence are the people in the room who can sense when it's a good time to deliver a message or throw out an idea versus hold back. Those are the kinds of things that I'm constantly trying to give throughout a workshop so that people get the idea of what it means in action.
The other part that is more experiential is, I put people into perhaps peer coaching where they get to experience coaching the person on what they see as their growth areas right after they've taken some sort of a 360. Or in my case, I have my own proprietary brand leadership brand assessment. They have to give me an example of when you found that to be true, or what kinds of things make you believe this is so, and then I give instructions to the coach. As leaders, we need to be better coaches with each other and with our followers, and then I give them instructions on how to be a better coach, and how to give feedback. So in that way, it's more experiential.
Andi Simon: We do the same. We ask them for small wins. We ask them, What will you do more of and less of, to your point about the story. I tell them that they have a story in their head, and usually, they're the hero in it. And if it's going to change, how will they change the story? Because if it doesn't change, somebody else can't get inside that to be part of a team or a collaboration. And then we ask them to come up with a story about a small win where they will change the way they've always done things. So with a very direct approach.
I work with one hospital CEO who signed every check. Needless to say, it was very directing. And he wanted to be more innovative and collaborative. I said, "Dan, give me one thing you're going to do differently." And he looked at me and it was like, "Oh, I have to do something differently?" Well, you can't be aspirational. And when this is about what will be innovative, how much empowerment will there be? At which point I realized how hard it is to go from saying the word to doing it. And this was a CEO whom I've known for quite a long time and he had to begin to change how hard it is.
So this is all really important to things that you and I are both very much into: the next level of leadership that's coming for change, and who need new skills. And I'm finding that they are often frustrated and running away.
I'm just finishing a blog post about the times are changing, and if you're frustrated, you're going to have to get used to it. And rather than begin to go out and discover and explore and see these things as they are, they're digging deep into, "No, that won't happen." I have them say, "Yes" and "It will happen," so they can begin to see it in some fashion. Are you finding leaders that are opened up to the innovations that are coming? Or do they really just want to do their job a little bit better and be incremental in some fashion? What do you see happening?
Sara Canaday: I think leaders are very open to the innovations that are coming. But what you'll hear is, I'm still being asked to be a working leader. So where I want to be part of the innovation, where I want to be part of creating solutions, I'm still expected to meet quarterly numbers. I'm still expected to spend hours on this report that needs to go up every month. And so there's a little bit of disconnect in their mind between what they're being called to do, and what the habits and the protocol is of their organization. And sometimes, you know, those habits are our own.
In fact, I just wrote a piece today about leaders doing more, or rather doing less, working for leaders as a solution. And when I look back at when I was a leader in corporate America, and now, and I'm asked what are the differences, I used to say, There aren't that many differences, there are still the things we need to do. We just need to do them at an elevated level. And I used to say, Yes, things like innovation are important, and creativity.
Well, if you were to ask me now, I see some very distinct differences. In fact, in the way I would go about my day, I was very much a doer, which I think leaders tend to be rewarded for. We are production machines. We deliver. And so that was something that I think I was rewarded for, for years. I was also rewarded for not making any errors, which meant that I wasn't taking any risks. And I wasn't allowing my people to take risks. And I was rewarded for being in the know, and having the details at the ready.
If you think about all of those things, they are somewhat counter to what we need to do today as leaders, and in this simple post I had today was about three things which were letting go. We need to let go of those things that no longer serve us. As writers know the term, Kill Your Darlings. We hold some things very close to our hearts. Sometimes it's the same old reports. We've done the same old metrics that we're measuring without even asking, are they still serving us? Are we hiding behind these? Is there a deeper conversation that needs to happen? So letting go is one rethinking habits and priorities is another. And standing still. Instead of doing, giving yourself enough time on the calendar to think ahead, to think about the implications of certain things that are going on, to think about what may be around the corner. And I think those are very easy to hear, but very difficult to do when you're trained as a productive, efficient leader.
Andi Simon: I want our listeners to hear those things because I couldn't agree with you more. We use an exercise as Blue Ocean Strategists called Four Actions: what will we eliminate and reduce to raise and create a new focus? Because in the absence of a process for it, the steps that Sara was just talking about somehow never happened. What will we change in some fashion systematically? What will we eliminate focusing on when we create new metrics? What are the right metrics?
You know, you're hanging on to what you've always done as if they were sacred but they were good for another time. And the other part is, how do you take a thought walk? You know, there's great research that if you take a walk, your creativity goes up 60%. It's just the idea that comes out when you walk 10,000 steps. And if you never get away from the office, there's no time to let the brain begin to think.
And then we play Innovation Games with them. And ideas come flying from all kinds of places just because they're in the game mode, so that the tools to begin to move an organization or a person in a new direction are really powerful. The question is whether or not you can embrace them and begin to get your boss to embrace them too. Because often, they say "I want you to be more innovative. You are supposed to be a discoverer, not just to deliver. But I don't have an extra hour in the day to do anything, thank you. Your reports that you want, and manage my folks so they don't make any errors." This is a very interesting time. Isn't it fun? Are you having fun, too? Because I am.
Sara Canaday: It's amazing. And you know, I reflect back to some things that had I adopted some of the strategies, the effectiveness that I could have had. I thought it was pretty effective. But you know, some of these new habits could have really served me well.
Andi Simon: You wrote a great tweet today about how tribalism hurts companies and what to do about it. I don't want to lose that. Because humans are herd animals. We're tribal: birds of a feather flock together. And I want to come back to t his because you have a great blog about how cognitive diversity, not just ethnic diversity or gender diversity, but bringing people together who think differently requires a lot of skills, and how do you take the ideas and begin to embrace them as diversity in thinking? Because people get into groupthink. They prefer to hear everyone say the same thing. Are you working with companies that are embracing this? And can you share with us some of the things you're watching happen?
Sara Canaday: I do think that companies are embracing it. I don't know that it's even conscious on their part. I work with companies that are global. As a result, they have a mix of diversity from the classic sense, but also from cognitive thinking diversity. I do think that over the years, we have been told and encouraged more than ever before, not to hire like-minded people.
For example, there was a post not long ago by, I believe it was Adam Grant, he tends to do a little bit of shock and awe. But you know, he even argued about this idea of culture fit and whether or not that was harming companies because they were hiring for culture fit. Now, I think he was doing that to get some attention because I think at the very core, the values of the individual and what they want should align with the company. In some ways, there has to be a fit, but I get where he was going.
We have to seek out on a broad scale diverse thinking. But even as individuals, I tell leaders, that as a strategy, they should purposely seek out the input and advice of people who they know have counter opinions. This should be just part of what they're doing when they're planning for an executive debrief, or when they're looking at launching a new idea or project, that they should purposely seek out counter advice, counter thought. So there are things you can do as an individual to make sure that you're bringing in a more diverse set of thinking and perspectives.
Andi Simon: One of the things I have them do is stop going to their trade shows. You all go to your trade shows to see what everybody else is doing and you mimic them. You benchmark yourself against them. And you all look alike, nothing like being a commodity. And they say, "Well, where should we go?" I say, "Go to a show on robotics, or medical devices, or on technology, innovation. Go anywhere on social media. You gotta fill your head with what's going on in society, not simply what's going on in your mind or industry."
Because much of the time the reluctant mind won't change. People are going there, and they feel good because they all are there. And they've always been there. And clearly no change comes out of there. And so even not going to the same trade shows becomes very interesting.
And the second thing is, I say, "You've got to go to different cultures." The global companies are exciting, as long as they don't try to make all of the different programs in different countries look exactly identical. And that always worries me because it's a McDonald's approach and in business, you can't do that. You have to really take the richness that's there and make it a real energy source as opposed to, Let's commoditize it all in. But this is complicated.
The other thing, and maybe you have some perspective on it, when you have a diverse group of people of all kinds, is: listening to them. You know that stuff on gender is very clear. A woman says something and nobody listens. Guys say the same thing and they agree with it. We work on, "How come you didn't hear what she said?" And they didn't even know they didn't hear what she said. So there's a lot of work to begin to realize your own biases. Are you getting any sense of it or you're not even self-conscious of it? It's a habit that got trained early on, and you just discounted. But I'm also excited. I'm watching groups of women who are beginning to now change the dynamics that are going on. So interesting.
So as we are beginning to wrap up here, I know you have a great book, YOU—According to Them. We didn't talk about it. At the beginning, I thought maybe you'd tell the listeners a little bit about it because it is a really good book.
Sara Canaday: Thank you. I'm happy to talk a little bit more about it. It came about because of this idea I mentioned earlier, where I have a firm belief that we can take matters into our own hands. That we can be our own best coaches, if you will, career momentum coaches, leadership coaches, that unfortunately we're not going to necessarily find people that will tell us what we need to hear for a number of reasons.
But in this book, I have chronicled what I consider to be some common, yet nuanced blind spots that are holding people back in their careers. And I want to emphasize nuanced because these aren't obvious. This isn't the blowhard that likes to hear him or herself speak at meetings. This isn't the bully at work. These are not very overt, they're more nuanced blind spots. But nevertheless, they are creating perhaps hidden hurdles for those who want to get ahead, very well-intentioned, well-meaning, very sharp individuals that simply can't see what's holding them back.
And so I've chronicled several of these blind spots that I witnessed as somebody in corporate but also somebody who then became a leadership and executive coach, and told the story of the person, what they were doing, what their intent was. But, then the disconnect between their intent and the impact and the effect it was having on how others saw them. And then each is followed by a very concise action plan, if you will, if you see semblances of that blind spot in yourself.
Some people have told me they've seen themselves in a number of the blind spots or a combination of them. And obviously, I've been told by leaders that it's helped them address their followers in terms of, they've seen it on their teams, these blind spots. And so that's how I've taken readers through the book. And at the very end is a capsulation of a broader process that I do on-site with companies. And I have the process online through an academy for people who want to go through understanding how they're being seen by others, being very intentional about what they want to project in the workplace, down to very specifics of what they want people to say it's like to work with them, the adjectives they want others to use when describing them, and then testing out their theory and then understanding what their value is in terms of their differentiators and what sets them apart.
I think those are the key ingredients for moving ahead is to be able to see the gaps, be intentional about targeting some development around your gaps, and then getting people to support you in that process as well. I think you mentioned it earlier. You advise your attendees to broadcast what they're working on, to get to people to be their advocates and their trusted advisors. I think that's very helpful.
Andi Simon: And initiating a change is scary. It's easier not to, and that doesn't get you where you need to go either. Sara, it's been absolutely a pleasure. I'm glad you and I can see each other. I wish our listeners could see Sara, it's great fun, but you can reach her and she's got wonderful workshops and speaking engagements. She's a great keynote, and you've got to see her videos on her website. So Sara, tell our listeners where they can reach you.
Sara Canaday: Absolutely. My website is saracanaday.com. And that's Canaday with a Y. They can reach me on Twitter @saracanaday and of course on LinkedIn. And I also have authored several courses on LinkedIn Learning. So any of those places I would love to engage with your listeners.
Andi Simon: She's got a great video on leaders in innovation. And so many leaders say they're innovative but when you ask them what they're doing, they don't know what they're doing that's innovative. I have a perfect short video that you guys and gals all ought to take a look at. It's really wonderful. So I want to thank you all for coming today and listening to our podcast On the Brink With Andi SImon. If you want to send your questions, please send them to info@andisimon.com. I look forward to hearing from you and have a great day. Bye bye now.
Hear how to take control of your own career and thrive
Lisen Stromberg, author of Work PAUSE Thrive: How to Pause for Parenthood Without Killing Your Career. Why I enjoyed this conversation so much is because Lisen makes a solid, myth-smashing case for taking a pause from your career to raise your children and then returning to the workforce without skipping a beat or sliding backward. Impossible? No, very possible. She did it and so can you. How? Take a listen.
As Simone Biles says, "Pause is power"
During our interview, Lisen and I realized that our professional lives have a great deal in common. I managed my career, raised my family and even cared for parents, without a pause. And like Lisen, I managed to thrive.
Early on, she learned that it was really hard to pursue a career in advertising and marketing while raising her children. What did she do? Paused, pivoted and became an award-winning journalist.
Along the way, she realized that other working women were struggling with the same choices. Could they too pursue a career and have families or was it an either/or that would forever impact their career growth and personal lives, usually in a negative way?
Like a true entrepreneur, Lisen determined that it didn’t have to be this way
Listen to Lisen describe how she realized that maybe it was time, finally, to rethink how to balance home and work in a culture that devalues the caregiving roles we all must perform at some stage in our lives. With the growing dependence of parents on their children, typically their daughters, she recognized that the work/family tug of war was demanding a solution, and fast.
Key points from our conversation:
- Where Lisen's inspiration for her book came from
- Her research on women in the workforce
- Trailblazing women navigating their own paths
- How “the pause” affects women in the workforce
- “Momtrepeneurs”
- Major change coming to the workplace via Millennials and work/life integration
- The shift of employee demands in the workplace
- How workplaces that accentuate work/life integration actually thrive
- Couples strategizing together to make their future flourish
- The future of gender-equal leadership
Want to learn how you can have a career on your own terms? Here's a start.
- Blog: How Are You Changing How You Work? Is It Working?
- Blog: The Future Of Work: 5 Most Important Trends To Watch
- Podcast: Jessica Yarborough—You Can Design Your Work Around The Life You Want To Have
- Podcast: How Women in Leadership Roles Can Finally Change The Workplace
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. Our podcast is designed around the questions that CEOs, business leaders, managers and staff are all asking: How can we do better? So we're going to share with you the stories of successful people who found their way to turn possibilities into opportunities and observations into innovations.
I have Lisen Stromberg with me today. Lisen was an interviewee of mine for Huffington Post, and you can read more about her there. Let me give you a little bit about her background and then we'll get right into our podcast. Lisen is an author, a cultural innovation consultant, which is why I find her work so really fascinating, and is a widely regarded speaker.
Her passion is how to empower people in companies to reimagine the future of work through a work-life balance—a real different model for how people should be working and how the companies that hire them should really take advantage of their talent. She's CEO and founder of PrismWork. She and her team partner with companies, leaders and advocates to really make sure women, particularly millennials, thrive in the new workplace. She is currently acting CEO of The 3% Movement, committed to changing the ratio of women leadership in the advertising industry. Welcome, Lisen.
Lisen Stromberg: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here, Andi, thanks for having me.
Andi Simon: You know, I was reading your book last night. And I'm saying this is going to be such fun to share today. So let's start. Could you please share with our listeners about your story?
Lisen Stromberg: So I wrote Work PAUSE Thrive: How to Pause for Parenthood Without Killing Your Career really in response to so many questions I was hearing from millennial women about how they really wanted to have great careers and wanted to also be engaged parents, and be engaged mothers. They just didn't see that there was an option to do both. They couldn't imagine it and couldn't envision it, and I really believed you could. I believed you could actually have these things and do these things in a way that really felt true and authentic to them as individuals or to us as individuals, and to companies.
And so I went on a journey to find out, if in fact my hunch was correct. I had seen in my own personal life that the traditional career paradigm, marching up the ladder paradigm that I was trained and believed was the only way to have a great career, just didn't work. Once I became a mother, there was no way I could do the kinds of work and be the ideal worker that the current workplace expects, and be the engagement I want it to be. So I went on my own kind of nonlinear career journey, pivoting and iterating and getting it right, or trying to get it right, again and again. And I think that is sort of the new career paradigm. I jokingly say, nonlinear is the new normal, because what I saw in my interviews, and in my research, is that that's how many highly successful women navigated this whole journey.
Andi Simon: So you really wanted to learn more, not anecdotally. So you got into interviews, and you got into a survey. I mean, let's talk about the credentialing of this kind of approach. Because women, are we doing things differently? How do we capture that?
Lisen Stromberg: So it's really a great question. So I literally just reached out to my inner network and said, "Hey, I have this hunch. What do you guys think?" And 186 interviews later, I realized, "Okay, I'm onto something. There's absolutely patterns here. There's something going on." But then I wanted hard data. I didn't want to just have qualitative data. I wanted some kind of real research around this. And so I started looking to find out what kind of longitudinal research was being done around college educated women and how they were navigating work and family. And I was astonished to learn, there's very little research.
The last piece of research that was out there, which was quite good, was done in 2008, of course, pre-economic meltdown. So much has changed since then. So I ended up hiring a market research firm, partnering with a professor at Hunter College, Dr. Pamela Stone, who's an expert on this issue of women who pause their careers, women navigating the career paradigm, and ended up doing what we call The Woman on the Rise Survey. We had nearly 1500 women responding to it. It was astonishing. We only thought we'd get to 50 and felt that that was really enough. Women wanted to share their stories.
Andi Simon: And rich stories exactly for the reason you said, because nobody seems to be watching, right?
Lisen Stromberg: No, that's the thing. We have a lot of constructs and a lot of belief systems, but, in fact, what we learned is that there's a lot of really amazing messaging around and opportunities to discuss how women are navigating this. And oftentimes we're finding that women themselves are keeping their stories quiet because we know, of course, all the research shows that when women are more authentic with their journeys, they're challenged at being ambitious. They're challenged that maybe they are committed if they're actually saying yes, I also want to put my family first.
Andi Simon: So let me just throw out to the listeners some data to think about here. The desire to tell the stories reflects a couple of things, one of which is that 60% of the folks in college today are women. The second thing is, 50% of the doctors are women, over 50% of the dentists are women. There are 34% of American women who are the breadwinners in their homes making more money than their spouses. And there's something here when we are 46% of the labor force that somehow we're going to have to pay attention to the way in which these women, I'll come back to your survey, in a moment, are beginning to make it all work. They want to have families but they're doing it in a very innovative fashion. And you began to see some patterns here. Tell us about them.
Lisen Stromberg: Yes. So the research that I had conducted, both quantitative and qualitative, really revealed what I call SRE for patterns. So let me start with, when we did this survey, and when I did this research, I assumed that most highly successful women had never stepped down, paused, or reduced their hours, etc, in their careers. So you had some real assumptions. I went in with some real assumptions, which were that the women who had navigated this unique path, non-linear, that we were the exception, not the norm.
In fact, it was just the opposite. What I found was that nearly 3/4 of the women who I interviewed and surveyed actually did have nonlinear career paths. They did downshift or reduce their hours or completely leave the paid workforce for a period of time. And they also pivoted quite a few times, all in an effort to find the best work-life integration solution they could find for themselves and their families. So they were incredibly innovative.
It's something we don't think about—they were trailblazing this whole path. And we think of these women who did this, maybe they weren't as committed. In fact, what I found is they were so committed, they kept iterating and iterating to find success. So three quarters had paused. That to me was astonishing, a mind blower.
Andi Simon: Now tell me how they paused.
Lisen Stromberg: It was really interesting. So what I saw was, those who paused had sort of three patterns. One was the women I call Cruisers and they're the women who actually stayed in the paid workforce but reduced their hours. Either they reduced them to work three day workweeks, or ended up becoming freelancers who work part time or maybe even full time, but on their schedules. So they really figured out how to navigate their own path and gave them time mastery. So that was one group, the Cruisers.
The other group were the Boomerangs. These are women who completely left the paid workforce, and were home with their children, people that we would have called opt-out moms. But ironically, 89% of those women rebounded and went back into the workforce to great success in many cases. 89% of them went back into the workforce. That was really amazing to me. Now, the research did show that the shorter time that you pause, so two years pause, meant that getting back in was absolutely a no-brainer. I mean, for the vast majority, it wasn't even a question. But interestingly, no matter how long you pause, the 89%, the majority who went back in, were able to literally get a job within six months. So the whole idea that you can't get back in after pausing, a number of women I interviewed paused for like 10, 11, 12, or 13 years. I thought, there's no way, and yet the vast majority were able to get back in. So this whole notion that you can't navigate this thing, in a way, is just flawed. So those were the Boomerangs.
The last group were the Pivoters. They're the women who actually left the paid workforce, and took that time to really figure out professionally what they wanted. They pivoted to new careers. And that to me, was very inspiring. These are women who really said, "Wait a minute, I was doing something and it may or may not work for me but I want to pursue a new dream." A number of women like Marianne Perrin, who's in North Carolina, ended up pausing for five or six years, and then pivoting to become a professor of nutritional science. Now she's a PhD, she's got a professorship. She's doing amazing research on infant nutritional science, that kind of thing. Those are stories that we don't often hear about. But I think that was, just to me, really inspiring to see these women just follow their dreams.
Andi Simon: Now a lot of them became entrepreneurs. Since we work with women entrepreneurs, we're doing research on women entrepreneurs. Now 30% of the businesses in the US are women entrepreneurs. So tell us about those, because I thought when they call them mom-entrepreneurs, mom-partner entrepreneurs, I don't know how you say the name, but man, there's something there of great energy.
Lisen Stromberg: What was really interesting was, so many of the women ended up becoming entrepreneurs and I divided them into sort of two subgroups: those women who were sort of single-shingle entrepreneurs who just put out, I shouldn't say that because they were often very successful. They put out a shingle, became consultants, or you know, very small business owners and maybe had a few other employees working part time kind of thing. That was about half of the entrepreneurs, and myself as an example of that, when I left my job as a vice president, I ended up becoming a shingle entrepreneur, had a consulting practice working fewer hours and making significantly more money. It was a great solution. And that was many of the women I interviewed. But you know, I live in Silicon Valley. What I also found was, a portion of women who actually were the traditional Silicon Valley entrepreneur. They got external funding and built their own businesses and had hugely successful businesses that were funding their families. A number of them, their husbands ended up leaving their own jobs to support the wives' businesses. So we're seeing some real interesting dynamics there. I thought those were very inspiring stories. Again, stories, we often don't hear.
Andi Simon: The name of our podcast today is On The Brink because you are on the brink of not just individuals trying to find ways to raise their families, but also have a purpose and meaning and livelihood and all kinds of other things, but you're also looking at a change in American culture. That's a part that I found so interesting because we're not hearing much about it in the news, and media aren't picking up on it. Often there's a sea change going on and the number of stay-at-home guys who are taking care of the family is growing slowly, but more rapidly than you might expect. As you were seeing this, and in your book, you talk about American culture going through a major innovation as the women are quietly changing this stuff. You know, what do you see going on?
Lisen Stromberg: You know, I think you're absolutely right. We are on the brink of some serious change in the workplace. And let's start with the fact that 80 million millennials are now the major employees. And we know a whole bunch of things about millennials, not the least of which is, they absolutely put work-life integration at the top of their list, both women and men.
So a fascinating study of Ernst and Young in 2015 revealed 30,000 white collar professionals revealed that 72% of millennial fathers had changed jobs, taking a pay cut or passing up a promotion so they could get better work-life integration with their young families. It's so exciting, or the workplace has to change. They don't have to do that.
Let's actually shift the paradigm and think about why these men, not just women, but why these men are actually having to do what we women have been doing for years, which is, you know, how to change our narrative in order to meet a rigid workplace structure. What I think is exciting on the brink of today, is it changing the paradigm about how we work and what work looks like and where we work and all those things. Technology has completely changed what's available to us. Millennials are saying, "This is unacceptable. You can't have a model where it presumes a stay at home spouse, the ideal worker model." I mean, we're seeing some real shifts. And I think as the millennial generation continues to entrench itself into our workplaces, we're gonna see huge changes.
So 64 million millennials are expected to become parents in the next decade. 22 million already are. And I speak to chief talent officers and CEOs every day and they're telling me they are terrified because they're going to lose all the women. But they also know they're going to lose the men. And so they're just trying to figure out what the hell to do. And there are smart things that can be done, and some rethinking about how we structure work that needs to happen. We are on the brink to having those changes happen.
Andi Simon: You know, I was up in Michigan, I do work with the Michigan College Alliance. In one of our sessions, the head talent officer for General Motors said, "I have to hire 10,000 folks and they all stay two and a half years. They're gonna have 16 jobs before they retire." And at the time, this was a problem. And we started talking about, well, maybe it's an opportunity because it allows them to have a flexible life in a different scenario. "But it takes five years for me to get a product out on the market."
There's a norm as changes in the automobile industry come that's going to really wipe out this whole conversation because when autonomous vehicles come along, who knows what's going to go on. Then you have robots coming that are going to transform this again. Then we also have the elder crisis coming where somebody better take care of the old folks. So there are so many major transformations happening that the innovation that these women are doing is not to be underestimated as a powerful way to rethink our society. Is that what you're seeing too?
Lisen Stromberg: I think we need to be clear, though, the women I surveyed in the interviews I had were all college educated women. So the workers that you're discussing who will be impacted at least in the near term, and then within the next decade, arguably are those who are not college educated. What crystal ball do I have, but I think the price of entry for having the freedom to navigate your own nonlinear career really is a college degree. And the college degrees are going to be the security blanket that are going to give workers what they need to really craft their own prison.
Now, if a gentleman is saying that he's got people turning over every two and a half years, that tells me there's no problem with the people, there's a problem with the way his work is structured and that needs to be rethought. Instead of looking at this as, "Oh my God, there's something wrong with the employees," we need to reframe that as saying, "Maybe we're constructing work wrong. Maybe we're constructing how we think we get work done. Maybe we're constructing how we develop people wrong."
There's a really wonderful book written by a colleague of mine called The Boomerang Principle. Her name is Lee Caraher, talking about how smart savvy companies are realizing that their alumni network as employees are the best employees to boomerang back to them. If you create an environment where you have people turning over every two and a half years, they may come back a year later because for whatever reason, the need that they left for is gone. They want to get back in. So looking at your employee base, your left employee base, your gone employees, past employees, as an opportunity, to me is a huge new way of thinking about that, and not many companies do.
Andi Simon: Well, to your point, though, I was working with a logistics company in Texas and a boomer CMO said to me, "What do I do? I had to buy ping pong tables for my new employees." And I said, "Tell me the problem is that you had to buy ping pong tables, and that's a problem." He said, "Don't they know we work nine to five, and then we go home and play ping pong?" And I didn't know quite what to say because encapsulated in a single sentence was a value system and a culture of a whole different generation. And they said to him, "Well, we don't stand by the watercooler and we don't smoke, we play ping pong." And it was a really interesting culture.
Half the workforce are going to be those millennials who play ping pong during the day. Some companies have ping pong tournaments, and they go to national company ping pong tournaments. I mean, there's something growing. To your point, though, I don't think we're making much noise out of it. It's going to happen in ways that are going to happen because they are going to change the workplace. I think that's the most interesting.
Lisen Stromberg: Well, it's so funny, because of course, here in Silicon Valley, we hear the ping pong story all the time. And what we're hearing now is, "Forget the damn ping pong table, give me a nursing room. I care about childcare." So we're seeing a real shift happening right now. It's not just the women who are asking for this, the guys are like, "I don't give a hoot about ping pong anymore. I really need childcare solutions. So give me that." So we're seeing some demand.
But to your point, we have generational divides. It's not just by age. I think I've met a number of millennials who are pretty boring. And they're thinking, and I've met a lot of boomers who are absolutely perennials, they're thinking very forward thinking like yourself. And so I think that we need to get out of it looking as a generational thing and really be thinking about how we can create an environment where people in the workplace can thrive. And one way of looking at that is to know that people don't leave at five o'clock anymore. Now with technology, they're checking emails all the time. They're setting up meetings, and going to meetings. This is a technology that didn't exist 10 years ago. So we're seeing huge changes in a way that we always need to be ahead of and understand that's an opportunity, not a constraint for us.
Andi Simon: Now, let's go back to women per se, because the women who are listening today, regardless of what generation or whether they're working right now, or going to come back, are leading something. In your book, Work PAUSE Thrive: How to Pause for Parenthood Without Killing Your Career, you talked about how to do it. I wanted to sort of give them some tips, as we were thinking about it. If you're listening in and haven't read the book yet, there's some how-to in there that I thought was very valuable.
Lisen Stromberg: So let's start with one of the things that was so inspiring to me is that every woman who was successful in my survey, and in my interviews, were women who had never taken their eyes off the ball of their careers. They may or may not have been in the paid workforce, but they were always nurturing their careers. They were maintaining their networks. They were volunteering strategically, whether they were in the paid workforce or not. Their volunteer opportunities were very strategic. They were making sure they were dealing with leaders and decision makers who could be their network in job opportunities moving forward. It's a way that very successful men have been volunteering for years.
So we're seeing a whole new way of thinking about that. They always put their human capital at the forefront of their decision making. So what was the best use of their human capital was the best use of their human capital right now to be working 24/7 at a job and not seeing their two young children. Maybe as the primary provider to their family, that was the best use of their human capital. If that wasn't the case, they would say, "Okay, this isn't working for me. I'm going to innovate a new solution that might be negotiating a reduced schedule. It might be leaving and finding another job with a better company with better work life integration solutions." They never took their eye off the ball of their value. And that, to me, was incredibly inspiring.
Some other very tactical things they did: they didn't go to a company if it actually didn't align with their values. They made sure they were working in places that really were aligned with them. That 28% of women who never pause their careers, one of the major reasons they never paused was, they were in workplaces that allowed them to truly thrive. They had control of their time. There were time masters, which meant that their bosses didn't criticize them if they left at two in the afternoon to take their child to a dentist appointment, and then came back and did work, or worked from home the rest of the day. There wasn't this presumption that they weren't productive just because there wasn't face time. So they were able to truly thrive in the workplace.
Andi Simon: Your stories were like your own personal story where you shifted left and you boomeranged right. And you began to build your own career into a very successful one. I was thinking of my own family. I grew up in a family firm, and my grandmother was the matriarch. And while my mother and father both worked in that family, my mother was a very strong personality. And to some degree, they both mentored me. And while I was supposed to take over the firm and still raise a family, I had no interest in going into it. But they were very supportive of my having a career, not just a job, identifying myself in some fashion, raising two children, and moving back and forth in a variety of ways to complete my degree and to do my research. I actually took my daughters when they were four and five to spend several months in Greece to do anthropological research. I was crazy, but we did it.
Lisen Stromberg: Right. But you are so innovative. You were totally trailblazing the solution. You're a classic model of what I'm talking about, nonlinear the new normal, but not so new for you, Andi.
Andi Simon: Not so new. But the other part is, I had a husband who was right there with me. And his mother was a career woman, and had a wonderful business in New York. So part of this is expanding the mentors and building. You write about your own daughter, and you want to share some of the observations in that, because I remember well the encouragement I got, but not from guys, but from my female mentors.
Lisen Stromberg: You know, let's start with mentorship in general. What I find so incredible is that many of the women I spoke to said it wasn't necessarily female mentors because there were so few women, if there were so few women at the top. It was the male mentors who were complete advocates for them. And I certainly have experienced that in my life, both. I'm so blessed to have so many female, but also so many male, mentors. But I think what's really wonderful is that millennial men are now marrying their equals. And saying professionally, academically, you know, with all the requisite whatever credentials, if you will, qualifications, and they're not expecting their partners to stay home.
But the couples themselves are talking about, "How do we strategically create an environment in which our children can thrive?" So we're seeing couples spiral. We're seeing them say, "Okay, I'll be in for this period of time, and you pull back, and then you'll be in for this period of time, and I'll pull back." We're seeing that happen, which I think is incredible and inspiring and an absolute reflection of the future of how couples are going to do this until we find workplaces that are more flexible.
Andi Simon: I was going to follow your thought because the other side of it is that as they push, those workplaces are going to be a reflection of this flexibility, and getting the job done without the rigidity and not having to be in cubicles anymore. But actually just being aware, and this is a whole generation that's grown up completely digital, interacts differently. I think that what's most exciting about it, and I love what you're doing to try and advocate for it, is to help the whole industry side of this begin to see its value and the power of it. All the smarts that are coming and take advantage of it. And I think it is an extraordinarily exciting time. It sounds like you do too.
Lisen Stromberg: Yeah. What's really interesting when I started writing the book and doing research for the book in 2015, it was very unusual to hear about a company that had a return-to-work internship, specifically targeted to professionals to pause their careers, typically women but not not only women, men too, and what now is becoming very common. I hear more and more companies are now launching these return-to-work internships, either formally or informally. They're intentionally hiring mid-career professionals who pause their careers for families and are ready to relaunch.
We're seeing huge success as a result of it. I spoke to many CEOs and CTOs who'd hired women mid-career who would pause their careers for a family and who are now running the companies. We're about to launch a book tour, underwritten by Momentum Worldwide. Momentum is an advertising agency that's incredibly well regarded. Their president, Donnalyn Smith, she's like, oh, my God, a workplace thrive role model. She had paused it with Momentum. She actually became a Cruiser so she worked part time with them. She's now president of their company. And she's like, "I never put a name to it but you're talking exactly about what I've done and what my agency has allowed me to do."
So we're seeing many, many, many companies sort of step up and say, "I want that talent. I understand that talent has great value. I want to fill the pipeline to leadership. We've got a mid-career break down, let's get them back in and help them be as productive as possible." It's solving that pipeline to leadership problem very quickly. Everyone says, "Well, I don't have enough women to hire." Well, yeah, you do. Get them in the door. And you'll be amazed by how they work for you.
Andi Simon: You know, at one point, people were getting certifications for being lead companies or lean companies. I keep wondering, as I'm sitting here, how are you going to create an award system for people to be the most innovative, flexible companies for men and women to work in so that collaboratively they can figure out how to get stuff done and still have a life. It's going to accelerate as the elder care crisis begins to accelerate. We need to worry about not only the kids at home and the work during the day, but also the families that we have to take care of, the elders.
Lisen Stromberg: Let me respond to that really quickly. So you read my mind as the CEO of The 3% Movement focused on the advertising industry. We've literally just launched a certification program for just that question. So many brands are demanding that their agencies have gender equal leadership. Well, you know, a lot of agencies don't have that, but they're on their way to trying to get there. And many agencies do have that but they have no way to prove it. So our certification program does just that. And so ironically, you nailed exactly what we're doing. We've had people outside the advertising industry ask us, "Can we become 3% certified because we want to show that we are that agency." So yes, that is happening. So that's exciting and incredible. We've got agencies just lining up to be part of that. So that's one thing that's happening.
But let me also say, back to your eldercare issue: A number of the women I interviewed did not pause their career when their children were young, but were forced to pause when their parents aged. I hate the term working mother or working daughter because it presumes that there's an option to not work. So let's sort of step that aside when you hear the word working dad or working son paradigm and the politics around that. A number of the women who self-identified as working daughters said that's the biggest crisis they faced in their careers in terms of work life integration. It wasn't the young kids, they could solve that, it was the parents who were ill and facing real need. And I think to your point, you're absolutely right. Unless we look at deconstructing caregiving in general, and look at this not as a mother issue or a father issue, but rather as a caregiver issue, then we're going to start seeing some real change.
Andi Simon: I'm going to wrap us up because we've taken so much of your time. It's been absolutely wonderful. I want to know when your first event of awards is to The 3% leaders because I'd like to come and see all of these three percenters begin to celebrate the great transformation in American society. I think it's not an accompaniment, it's a whole culture going through changes. I love it.
Lisen Stromberg: It's true. So actually, we'll be announcing our first winners at The 3% conference in November on November 2, in New York City, and tickets are available at threepercentconference.com for that big event, and it is already selling out.
Andi Simon: I'll go take a look at these and then people who want to reach you, learn more about what you're doing, perhaps engage you for a keynote or something, could you tell them the best way to get ahold of you?
Lisen Stromberg: Sure. The best way is to really go to my website, it's lisenstromberg.com. You can also find me on Twitter @lisenStromberg on Instagram @lisenStromberg and on Facebook, of course, and LinkedIn. But yeah, please reach out. Look at my website. I do a lot of keynote talks around this conversation because workplaces are finally saying, "My gosh, we need solutions." That to me is incredibly exciting to hear the businesses realize this is not a woman's problem, this is a business problem. We've got to solve it!
Andi Simon: With 5 million empty jobs and they're not quite sure how to do it. And Janet Yellen said, "Well, why don't we look to women?" Exactly. There's enough a-ha going around to say, "Oh, really, they're well educated. And they're really smart and very flexible, innovative about life. Let's see what we can do, opening up our minds to the next generation and how we're going to change the nature of work." I think you're right, it's across the generations.
Thanks for joining us today. I'm Andi Simon and this is On The Brink. Our podcasts are designed to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can soar. If you think you're on the brink, it's time to stop and take a good look. You can read more in my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. We want to hear your stories so feel free to send your questions along and you too could be one of our interviews. Send us a note at info@andisimon.com Have a great day. I'm having such fun.
Hear how to make your business better, remotely
It should be no surprise to you that as an anthropologist specializing in helping companies change, I loved my interview with Liam Martin. As we've all experienced, the pandemic has dramatically changed what we think of as “normal.” In particular, the meaning of work has changed and continues to, as each generation moves into the workforce with different values, beliefs and behaviors. Businesses, both small and large, are trying to recruit, retain and develop their talent pool, only to find that today's workers have very different ideas about what matters to them, reflecting fundamental societal questions about what “really matters” to each of us. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Today’s podcast contains very valuable data, information and insights about how to manage a remote or hybrid workforce
Think of it as today’s future way of working. But, as so many of our clients are asking, how do you manage a remote workforce, particularly since women really have embraced remote work?
My guest Liam Martin, co-founder of a remote-first company which grew eight figures with people in 43 different countries and no office, says, "Remote work has been our way of working for more than 10 years. We observed that almost 99% of new remote companies during the pandemic could not figure out one thing common to all successful remote-first companies: asynchronous communication, the bedrock of every successful remote business.
Here are a few of the new counterintuitive principles Liam and I discuss:
- Introverts climb to the top faster in remote-first companies because their thoughtfulness is seen as an asset, not a liability.
- In remote-first organizations, charismatic leaders are not required; in fact, charisma is one of the biggest barriers to business growth, regardless of whether the company is remotely located or not.
- Remote teams operate on autonomy, and contrary to popular belief, the more automated measurements you have within your organization, the more freedom you have.
- Remote-first companies have, on average, half as many managers as on-premises companies. Management in remote first-organizations is redundant.
Contact Liam via LinkedIn or his two websites: Time Doctor and Running Remote.
Enjoy our conversation. Rethink your own organization.
It may be time to change. Perhaps we can help you visualize a new business model for the future—which is really today! Please contact us here.
Want to know more about successfully taking your company remote? Start here.
- Blog: How Are You Changing How You Work? Is It Working?
- Blog: The Future Of Work: 5 Most Important Trends To Watch
- Blog: Virtual Organizations, Hybrid Organizations, And The Most Amazing Workplaces For Tomorrow?
- Podcast: Teresa Douglas—Unleashing Those Secrets To Working Remotely
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
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Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. As you know, I'm your host and your guide. I'm also a bit of an explorer. And I go looking for really interesting people who are going to help you see, feel and think in ways so you can soar. These are indeed fast-changing times and so the more unusual people I can bring to you, the happier I am. I'm amazed at where people are listening to our podcasts. So thank you, you've pushed us to the top 5% of podcasts across the globe and that's a pretty impressive place to be. And we're now at 327 podcasts, so we just keep going, trying to find great folks.
Today I'm quite honored to have Liam Martin with me. Liam has a very interesting story to share with you about the world that we're in. And I'm going to ask him some questions about what is work, what's remote work. I have my own clients who are trying to bring their employees back into the office. And the employees are saying, "Why?" And they're saying, "Why not? We miss you." And they say, "But we don't miss the commute. And we don't mind working out of the house, and we're getting much more productive and we're actually having a life." It's a very interesting time, even as we go post-pandemic. It's hard to know what's going on and who's coming back, and how to use remote and what we've learned wisely. And I think that's the lesson to be learned today.
So let me introduce you to Liam. Liam is a serial entrepreneur. He runs something called Time Doctor and staff.com, one of the most popular time-tracking and productivity software platforms in use by top brands today. He's also co-organizer of the world's largest remote work conference, Running Remote, and he'll tell you a little bit about it because it's already happened. I think you're going to wait for next year to make sure you can get there as well. Liam is an avid proponent of remote work and has published in all the major publications. He targets expansion of remote work, not because it's a gig but because it really does work for work. And I've been talking and doing research a lot about what is work, where do we work? When is the home not a home? How can we talk about life-work balance? It's sort of blended, and the pandemic was a catalytic moment for change. And I love change. But it's also been a catalytic moment for wondering about the core values we've got. Liam, thank you for joining me today.
Liam Martin: Thanks for having me, Andi. I'm super excited to be able to get into this subject, because I think we're going to be able to get a little bit deeper than the average podcast.
Andi Simon: Well, I think that's what I hope to do. I refuse to say: give me three things to talk about. You have a new book out called Running Remote. And it's focused on remote work methodology. And it's a revolutionary guide. And for the listener and the viewer, it is revolutionary because it isn't simply about what you ought to do, it's also how you should do it and why you should do it. But it raises those fundamental questions we're asking, like, what is work? And how do you get it done? And then how do you review the people who are working this way? And what are all the four things that we have in our company? Liam, tell us about you. Who's Liam, how'd you get here? Why is remote work so important to you?
Liam Martin: So first off, I'm currently in a chalet in northern Canada. I'm from French Canada. So I'm fluent in both French and English. And I've been working remotely for almost 20 years. I definitely was doing it before everyone thought it was cool. And the reason why I was doing that was, I actually dropped out of my Ph.D. They gave me a professorship, which was a master's degree for dropping out. And I remember teaching my very first class at McGill University. I was incredibly excited about this because this is where I was going in my career. I started with 300 students and ended up with less than 150. And the worst academic reviews in the history of the department. The department had been up and running for 186 years. So pretty bad.
I remember walking into my supervisor's office and looking him very squarely in the face and I said, "I don't think I'm very good at this." And he said, "No, you are not." And I said, "Okay, so what do you think I should do?" He said, "You have to get pretty good at this teaching thing over the next 10 to 20 years before you get to do anything really fun. So figure out how to get better at that or figure out how to do something else."
Six weeks later, after I put a master's thesis under his door, I was out into the real world. And that's where I actually started my very first business which was an online tutoring company. And I grew that to dozens of tutors throughout North America and Europe, but I ended up actually really working for the business. I was working 18-hour days. I remember actually chipping one of my teeth. When I went to the dentist to be able to check the tooth, you sat down, you've got the big white light, the chair that goes back, and the dentist gasped. And it's never a good idea when a health professional gasps when they look at you. He said, "Liam, which tooth are you talking about? You've chipped almost all of your teeth." He felt that I had pancreatic cancer because I had had X-rays the year before in which my teeth were perfect. And it was from stress. I was grinding my teeth at night, and grinding them into chalk. So he said, "Figure out how to do this remote work thing better, figure out how to do a business better."
And that's where I really started to unlock the secrets of remote work. I've now grown multiple businesses to eight figure run rates and beyond. We have team members in 44 different countries all over the world. And I'm really excited about our mission statement, which is empowering the world's transition towards remote work. Everything that we do feeds into that.
Andi Simon: That is just fascinating. But I also remember teaching my first class at Queens College. I had 300 students in the room. And when I was done, my professor came up to me, Dr. Silverman said to me, "You'll do." And I wasn't quite sure what that meant other than spend 10 years as an academic and get my tenure. And I had really rave reviews, except for an occasional non-rave. But then I too left to get into business. I wasn't going to do the same thing in academia for the rest of my life, the idea of being tenured was a very high mark to achieve and then something that I didn't want to pursue. And business has been quite fascinating in terms of change.
When you did this, it was early in the remote world, you could see opportunities there. And I'm curious, because as you began to build the companies around this, you learned some things that became really quite a passion of yours, and really probably the substance of your book. So before we get into your book, some of the insights that came from that early business and the remote work workplace.
Liam Martin: So for me, I'm always really good at figuring out trends that are moving up into the light. The problem for me, however, is, I don't know how fast they're moving. So are we talking about the market expanding at 2% per year, 10% per year, just to kind of give you context. In February of 2020, 4% of the US workforce was working remotely. By March, 45% of the US workforce was working remotely. That's the biggest transition in work since the industrial revolution. But the industrial revolution took 80 years. And we did that in March. So a complete change of everything that we know as it applies to work.
Just a month ago, the US Census actually collected a new data set with regards to remote work, and identified that 7% of the US workforce is currently working remotely. But if you include hybrid work, it's 32% of the US workforce, and less than 10% of that workforce is working remotely due to the pandemic. So over 90% are working, because they want to be able to work from home. So we're at a really interesting transition phase where a lot of people are being pushed back to the office, they're being pushed back to these hybrid work agreements, even though they don't really want to be able to do them. And I think that that feeds into the core of the big problem that we had during the pandemic, which was that instead of actually adopting remote work, we simply recreated the office at home.
Andi Simon: Well, yes, we did. Because when in doubt, you know, mimic. Humans are great monkeys. And we knew what we knew. But we were very attached to it. But we may not even have liked it. And now we had something new that we had no idea about, there were no models. So we had to figure out something. There are a couple of problems that have developed. One of which is the worker at home having to navigate. I had my own clients who were trying to navigate family and work and their own self-care. You had your managers who were trying to figure out how to make sure the work got done. And they were also trying to figure out how to evaluate how the work got done and if it got done well.
One gentleman said to me, "I used to go out and have coffee with my folks and I learned what they were doing. I don't know how to do that now." And I asked him, "That's the basis on which you evaluated?" And he said, "Yeah, that was pretty much how I evaluated them." I said, "Well, one wonders whether that was good, or now it's bad."
So you had the managers and you had the important performance evaluation. And they were working with a group and they are lonely, but they don't want to come back to the office. And so how do you develop a community of remote workers? And how do you do it in such a way as they can begin to develop the trust they need to know who to go to for what kind of problems? So I have a hunch. These are issues that you saw happening, and maybe even have some suggestions about. Can you take me through it any which way? How do you do it at home? How do you manage it? How do you evaluate it? Or how do you build a business? What do you see happening?
Liam Martin: Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. So you're actually addressing all of the problems that we saw when we were developing this book. The first one, which I think is the most important, is, How do you measure success inside of a remote-first organization. And one of the issues that I personally had to deal with because I've come from the remote work world, I've been doing remote work for almost 20 years, I've actually never worked inside of an office. I think, technically, the last time I worked inside of an office was when I got that horrible review, in grad school teaching a first year Sociology course. And the philosophy inside of remote-first organizations, it's the third tenant of what we identify in our book, is detailed metrics. So every single individual inside of our organization has a quantifiable, longitudinal metric that is actually collected by the platform, and not necessarily by the individual. And inside of that, we have a philosophy that we like to call radical transparency, where everyone gets access to that information.
So when you join an asynchronous remote organization, you actually don't just get access to what you do or what your department does, but you get access to everything in the organization. The saying is, Can we give you the same informational advantage as the CEO of the company, which is sometimes very difficult for people that live in a synchronous 20th century MBA mindset to get their heads around. But what it does provide to you is, the measurement is actually the platform's responsibility, not the managers. So you have this clear third perspective, and the conversations that happen between managers and employees are, "Your numbers are not where they need to be, I need to be able to help you to get those numbers to where they need to be because I don't control those numbers, I don't control the judgment as to whether or not you succeed or not, these numbers are actually predefined. So we need to be able to work together to be able to get you to where you need to go,' which aligns you with the manager. So you, the manager, is not judging you. It's the platform that's judging you.
But more importantly, actually, the manager is also being judged, and in the same way, because the manager is saying, "Well, all your direct reports," where the person above them would say, "All of these numbers don't necessarily seem to be working out and this other department is doing better than you. You might be the problem as the manager." So qualitative versus quantitative measures. Qualitative measures don't really exist inside of asynchronous teams. And we think that that is an advantage.
Andi Simon: Now clarify something for our viewers: what does it mean to be asynchronous? I want to go back to your data as data-driven performance. But asynchronous means what?
Liam Martin: So fundamentally, it just means building a business without interacting with people simultaneously, or what we call synchronously. But I can give you a good example that kind of alludes to this. I don't know how old you are, but I remember when, back in the day, I would have to watch Friends every Friday at 8:30pm because I knew that if I missed Friends, on Monday I wouldn't be in the conversations that everyone was having because in that episode, you got to find out what Chandler does this week. And sometimes I'd show up at 8:40 and I missed the first 10 minutes of Friends. So I'd have to take another six months before I could check out a rerun of that particular episode. That is synchronous communication at its core.
Asynchronous communication and management is more like the Netflix model. So the information is available for you, documented in a digitized platform and it's available to every employee to consume when it's most advantageous to them to consume it, not on a timetable of the manager or the organization. So you as a worker can say, "Well, I don't really want to meet at 3pm to be able to do this meeting because I'm really in a good flow state right now and I'm completing a project, so I can watch the recording or I can read the minutes of that particular meeting at 8pm when it's most advantageous for me to be able to consume that information." It's a very, very small shift in the way that you think but it creates a massive increase in overall productivity by our data.
And again, I looked at approximately three dozen companies that are asynchronous at this point and some of the most successful companies in the world, by the way, are asynchronous. WordPress is asynchronous, GitLab is asynchronous, Shopify is in part asynchronous. These are massive companies that run like 30-40% of the internet and they have no zoom calls. They have no phone calls. They all are autonomous nodes in the system because they know exactly what they need to achieve and they have the information available to them through the platform and in order to be able to actually achieve those particular goals. So we see in our data that the average organization is about 33% more productive. And we define productivity by the amount of hard problems that organizations can solve.
One of the big philosophical frameworks inside of the book that's been passed around inside of the remote work community for years is a book called Deep Work by Cal Newport. And so we use that at scale. And we're finding that those organizations are 33% more efficient. They cost about 50% less than their on-premise counterparts. And they're generally going to be a lot more effective as we move forward. And if you're not doing this right now, this is probably why you've had difficulty in the past actually deploying remote work at scale.
Andi Simon: Now go a little deeper here because as we talk about developing talent, we talk about humans needing autonomy. They need to be in control. They need to believe that it's fair, that there's a fairness lead there. They need to protect their status, they need some certainty. And then they need the mastery, and they need the relationships. That human brain, you don't make decisions based upon what we call score. Nobody needs their status protected. I need my certainty, my autonomy, my relationships and my fairness.
As you're talking, I'm saying to myself, Well, this is really fascinating because asynchronous management businesses enable people who are able to become quite autonomous, master their jobs, get the kind of fairness that they require because it's not biased. It's based on the data. You do it or you don't and then they can begin to build the relationships. They need to get their work done, as opposed to the artificial meetings of the past, where you came together, even though there was nothing to discuss, no agenda or takeaways from it. You're smiling and been in too many of those.
Liam Martin: I have a saying , which is, No agenda, no agenda. That's my mindset with regards to that kind of stuff. I mean, this is so difficult for people to get their minds around. And it was very, very difficult, by the way, for me to be able to, for the first time ever, be exposed to a synchronous environment in which I would sit around with eight other people in a room. And maybe two of those people would talk for 90 minutes, and then we would leave. And I would think to myself, "Why was I here? I could have written four blog posts or done two podcasts during that time. Why am I here? This could have been an email."
Andi Simon: I was an executive at a hospital, I moved from banking to healthcare, and same thing. We would come to meetings, no agenda, no takeaways or work to be done. An FYI kind of meeting I guess. But coming from the outside, which never has straight meetings, and now, it was one of those, what am I supposed to do here? Why am I spending the time? And then I watch people selectively omit the meetings, which is a whole other strategy. But they're also talking about their behavior, and I can get the job done without being synchronous. I couldn't get it done with being an autonomous individual capable of doing this. So take me through your book a little bit. I love the asynchronous part. Other parts to it that your listeners here should know about that you want to make sure they share, because I have a hunch you want them to become remote workers.
Liam Martin: Yeah, so really there's three core tenants of the book and it's very simple, because we've seen so many books come out about remote work. There's actually 27 coming out this quarter, based on what my publisher is telling me. And there's no book on asynchronous work. There's no book on asynchronous management, which is a real shame because I actually think it's the core of what all of these real pioneers were doing before the pandemic and this really was a bit of a kind of qualitative journey for me.
Looking at all of these different companies and identifying where the trend lines were, I was trying to identify the signal. And then we talked about asynchronous work and I realized every single company that was successful was deploying what I call asynchronous management at scale. So there's three core fundamental pieces to it. There's deliberate over-communication, democratized workflows, and detailed metrics. So over-communication of information shouldn't be easy to understand, it should be impossible to misunderstand. That's a very small switch in your mindset. But an email is not just an introduction to an asynchronous meeting, an email is where the conversation should hopefully start and end. And the less of those forms of communication that you end up having, the clearer that you can be, the extra three minutes that you spend on an email or communicating in a project management tool, as an example, the more effective you're going to be, organizationally.
The second one is democratized workflows. So process documentation is at the core of every single asynchronous organization. There is a really great quote from a company called GitLab, which is a $14 billion company. They spend less than 1% of the time communicating synchronously, but they have a $14 billion valuation and are growing incredibly quickly. And they have this saying, which is, We always respond with a link. So whenever someone asks a question inside of the organization, they respond with a link to a process document that answers their question. So they're removing the manager from being the way that people get answers. And they're training them to basically figure out that the platform is really their manager. Again, reinforcing autonomy, allowing individuals to say, "Well, here's where I go to get my information. It's actually in this documentation and I want to actively use it as much as humanly possible."
And then the third one, that we had touched on before, is detailed metrics. Every single person inside of an asynchronous organization has a third party, longitudinal quantifiable metric that they do not self-populate, that is populated by the platform itself. And then that information is available to everyone. So everyone knows what everyone else is doing inside of the organization. And counterintuitively, you may think that this impacts autonomy, but in reality, actually, if it were me, I would much rather be managed and measured by a platform that's at its core egalitarian, as opposed to John that says, "Hey, you know what, I don't really like the way that Liam talks to me sometimes so therefore, I'm going to give him a low rating on my three sheets to review," that type of stuff.
So between those three core tenants, you can actually build any level of asynchronous organization. And it's really exciting once you get there because then you can do things like, have your employees work wherever they want. So they don't necessarily need to be in a particular location, because you're not dependent upon synchronous communication. They don't have to be located in the same city. We have employees in 44 different countries across the planet. You can have employees that are from any location and are bringing in very different perspectives.
We've had one funny week where I had a meeting with someone that was talking about debating their transition from male to female. And then the very next week, I had a discussion with someone who was thinking about having a second wife in their family because in the Middle East, this person was from the Middle East, and that was legal and encouraged in their particular country. And then this other person was transitioning. Where in any organization could you have those two same people interact? Well, you can have an organization in which you don't necessarily have to have that kind of cultural homogenization that you end up having in the vast majority of synchronous organizations.
So it's a really exciting time. And I see this going back to another friend of mine, Darren Murph, who was head of remote at WordPress. He said, “This is really a Model T moment where we're really seeing a new way of operating a business.” And that's why I want to kind of get this out to as many people as possible.
Andi Simon: How about decision making? As I'm listening to you, you're empowering your folks to make decisions? Or do you have a different asynchronous way of evaluating options or how do you manage expenditures, empowerment, risk taking, things like that. You know, some of my clients are always concerned about, "How much risk shall I take? How do I go up for approval? Where do I manage the dollars?" But as I'm listening to you, it sounds like we're going to empower our people to make those decisions, or how do they work?
Liam Martin: Yeah, so I can give you one clear example, which can kind of allude to many more. We have this concept called Silent Meetings inside of our organizations, inside of all asynchronous organizations. And to get very tactical, we use a platform called Asana, which is a task and project management system. And every single week, we have a meeting where we post issues. So the issue might be, we would like to hire 10 more engineers to work on this particular issue. Here's the pros and cons. Here's what we think. Here's why we think we'll succeed. Here's the risks if we fail. And then we debate that issue asynchronously.
So we start writing comments inside of that particular issue ticket. And sometimes these issues can go 40, 50, 100 comments long. They are incredibly intense, very rich pieces of information. And if we come to a conclusion, we take that conclusion, and we put it to the top of the ticket, and we clear the ticket. And if we have less than three issues in our agenda, the platform automatically cancels the synchronous meeting. So we do this meeting every week. And we have on average one meeting a month because we don't necessarily need to address all of those issues, all the issues that you think are going to make or break the business and completely change the trajectory of what you're doing as an organization. They don't need to be discussed synchronously the vast majority of the time, they can be discussed asynchronously, and can be just as successful.
And the advantage is that, #1: there's documentation. So I can go back two years and I can figure out why did I make this decision in the business. I can look at the 78 comments and the debate. So there's no undocumented conversations inside of asynchronous organizations. The second big advantage, and I don't know if you've had this situation happen to you, but it happens to me all the time. It's very difficult for me to be able to communicate in the moment. I'm much better sitting down and thinking about things, getting the information and processing it in my own time. And when I look at a boardroom, I don't even need to hear what people are saying to figure out whose ideas are going to get adopted.
First, it's usually the six foot tall white guy that looks like Captain America because, generally, that person has a charismatic advantage, what I like to call a charisma bias. So we have that person pitch those ideas. Is that person's idea better than anyone else's? Probably not. But can the packaging of that person sell everyone on that idea? Absolutely. So inside of asynchronous organizations, the wallflower like me that doesn't actually want to debate those issues in the moment, because I know I will lose, I don't have that type of skill set. I can communicate in asynchronous meetings and better ideas get adopted more often inside of asynchronous organizations. And over time, that is a killer formula for much higher levels of success inside of your organization.
Andi Simon: It sounds like, in your organization, this is how you run the business. So the question is, how do you then develop, attract, retain, and develop your talent? Do they just love this way of working and learn it immediately? Because it's a different way from mine. I'm guessing they've acquired skills in high school and college, about how you get things done. And, you know, a feeder system needs to be created and may actually be you that creates it, but what would you do with employees to make them happy doing it this way?
Liam Martin: So the first thing that I think you need to take a look at is, there's a core assumption in there that I think the majority of synchronous organizations take into consideration which we do not, which is the concept of culture. I mean, you're really just boiling it down to, How do we build culture inside of organizations. Asynchronous organizations are more focused on the work than the people. So inside of asynchronous organizations, we do not say that we own a position, we say that we currently operate a position. So I am not the CMO of the company. I currently operate the position of CMO of the company. And at any point I have the documentation in place to be able to completely delegate that responsibility if I want to.
So I want to take the year off and write a book about remote work, which I did. I can, within days, delegate all that responsibility to my direct reports, and the organization continues on. But going back to the work concept, it entirely is focused on, Are people really passionate about the problem that you're trying to solve? Our mission as a company is, we're trying to empower the world's transition towards remote work that feeds into everything that we currently do as an organization. And our measurement for new people that are coming into the organization is, "Are you as passionate about that as us? Do you have a cult-like commitment to that particular mission? If you don't, don't work here. We'll find you a job somewhere else that's way better. And will probably pay you more, but we can't pay you as much. It's going to be more difficult. But at the end of the day, we're going to try to put a dent in the universe that I think you will be fundamentally proud of because you're so incredibly passionate about this particular subject."
And that's what almost the majority of people miss is, it doesn't matter how qualified someone is, are they actually excited about what they're doing? Because if they're not excited about what they're doing, then you might as well not even start. So that's where we start. And as an example, we have an ENPS rating, which is an Employee Net Promoter Score, basically, how engaged employees are in the organization. The industry average is 36. And when I studied these asynchronous organizations, I found on average, they had a score of 72. So they're much more engaged.
And the two major reasons that they give for why they like working there is autonomy and access to information. So having an open organization like that allows for people to be more autonomous, enjoy what they're doing. They're not necessarily interacting with coworkers as much because asynchronous organizations just by default don't do that. But there are different ways that we interact. Like one of the companies that I studied in the book is a company called Todoist, which is a task management app that has millions of users all over the world. And they play a kind of version of Dungeons and Dragons on their instant messaging platform. And as a group, they all have a little community and they say, Well, do we go left or we do we go right? And some of them are wizards and rogues and warriors, and they fight a fight. And they have this actually through text. So it's a really fun kind of experience. And they'll say, Hey, within the next 24 hours, everyone's got to log in. And you've got to make your decision as to what you do because we're going to be moving our party forward. And that's a very nerdy example. But that's just some of the ways that we interact asynchronously.
Andi Simon: Liam, I'm enjoying our conversation and I'm also watching our time. And when is your book coming out?
Liam Martin: The book is going to be out August 16. So dependent upon when this session comes out, it may be available. And if people want to go check it out, go to runningremotebook.com. And then you can obviously pick it up at Barnes and Noble. Amazon is probably the easiest place to be able to get it.
Andi Simon: But we all do want to keep Barnes and Noble happy. But to your point, this is really cool if you do consulting? And do you help people create asynchronous organizations? Is that part of your toolkit as well?
Liam Martin: No, because I don't have time to be able to do that. I have to stay an operator inside of the inside of remote work. But if you go to runningremotebook.com, I actually do have a network of consultants that I can refer you to if you're really interested in deploying asynchronous itself.
Andi Simon: Because the last thing I like to do is raise expectations. This is really cool. And why would I like to do this with all of my remote workers? Can I take the opportunity and turn it into something better? And then they say, But how do you do this? And you know, you can't learn to play golf without a coach and some idea of how you hit the ball. And you gotta hit it 700 times before you hit it well, so there's lots to do between the lip and the top here. But this has been so fascinating. As you are wrapping up: two or three things you might like to leave the listeners with? They often remember the end even better than your beginning. And your beginning was wonderful.
Liam Martin: Well, so I think first off, to your point: I'm not trying to build a million asynchronous organizations, I'm trying to get a million organizations to be 1% more asynchronous. So if you pick up this book and you're able to pick up two or three strategies to be able to remove one or two meetings from every single individual, that is going to be a net gain to the universe, in my opinion. So it's really important to be able to check out the book see what you think.
The second point that I'll leave you with is: If you think that this is not going to be the norm moving forward, you are unfortunately not understanding how history works. We're at 30% of the US workforce working remotely. I believe that within the next five years, we're going to be back up to 50% of the US workforce working remotely in part. And this is a permanent civilizational shift. So you can either stick your head in the sand, and think that the old way is the way to be able to do it, going back to the horse and buggy concept, or you can jump onto those Model Ts and right into the future. So it's up to you. But I would highly suggest that if you think that this is a trend, or just kind of a speed bump in history, definitely pick up the book, because you need to be able to adapt for those changes.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, the comment that this is the Model T for work is a very interesting metaphor. I'm sure you've read that Henry Ford invented the modern age. And now we have electronic vehicles, electric vehicles coming out, transforming the car from a combustible engine to basically a computer with a battery. And so there are lots of great transformations happening at this moment. And I think that work, and I love catalytic moments, which the pandemic did create a crisis and I preach, Don't waste a crisis, because you learned a lot.
And I do a tremendous amount of virtual workshops and speaking engagements. And people say, "We want you to come." And I'm trying really hard to tell them that that's a waste of my time, and not probably more valuable for them. Because I'm not there to entertain you with my charismatic life. I mean, I'm there to inform you and educate you, perhaps with a little edutainment. But if we can do it remotely, it's really cool for me and for you. And it's cheaper for you too, and so I did 49 of them this year with great reviews. I have them starting to book up for next year.
And I'm saying to myself, I don't really need to do it in person. It's a little asynchronous in a sense, but it's not too far for what you're talking about. That's a great transformation, we learned a lot. And boy, you can listen in and find yourself coming away transformed, like our listeners are going to be after listening to you. This has been such fun. Thank you for joining me today. I know you're doing a lot of podcasts. I hope this has been a fun one for you. Because part of it is really fun taking your ideas and sharing it. So you don't have to tell me if it was fun or not. You can just smile for our viewers.
Liam Martin: It was actually very enjoyable. And thank you so much for having me.
Andi Simon: Well, and thank you, both viewers and listeners for coming today. Now remember, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can do things better. My job is to get you off the brink so you can soar. And the times, they're changing, you often become stuck in the mud. You're the deer in the headlight, you stand still, you're attached to your shiny object. And until you see something new, you don't know how to change. And that's because your body protects you from the unfamiliar or the unknown.
And so today, we've been hearing a lot about the changing nature of work. It's happened. And now you can sustain it, but also turn it into a better way to do business, because quite frankly, your customers are looking to do it as well. And it's not just inside, but it's outside, which is what we love to do.
My books are available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business has been doing really well and won an award for the 2022 best business book for women in business. And my On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights has been hustling along. They're showing you how a little anthropology can help your business grow.
And remember my job is to help you change. You hate change but the times are changing. So come along and let's have some fun. You can reach me of course at info@Andisimon.com or info@Simonassociates.net and our new Simon Associates website is out, which is www.simonassociates.net. Come take a look and see what you can learn about how to change. Bye for now. And thank you again for coming. Bye-bye.
Hear how to really live diversity, equity and inclusion
This was a very special podcast with Dr. Rohini Anand, a global strategic Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) leader. A published author, Dr. Anand’s new book, Leading Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion: A Guide for Systemic Change in Multinational Organizations, sets the stage for her own journey as a pioneer in DEI and a woman helping global companies transform their organizations, one person at a time. You are going to enjoy learning from Dr. Anand. Open your notebooks, iPads or computers and get ready to capture the innovations, the insights and the impact she is making, and which you can as well. I just love women who are changing the world!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Rohini's 5 principles for truly bringing about DEI change:
- The first principle: Make it local. Global change has to be anchored in an understanding of the local context. It has to be rooted in the local particulars informed by the history, the culture, the language and mores of each place.
- The second: Leaders change to lead change. And we know very well that commitment from senior leadership is absolutely fundamental to ensuring that the DEI is sustained.
- The third: It's good business to institute DEI, and without a compelling reason for change. We all know 70% of change efforts fail. But there's reasons this sort of change narrative has to be congruent with the organization's purpose and how business is done.
- The fourth: Go deep, wide, and inside out. Organizations are interconnected systems that work in concert with each other. DEI needs to be infused in the internal processes and systems and externally, so you have to take a systems approach.
- And the fifth principle: Know what matters and counter. Metrics clearly provide a global framework, a cohesive narrative to spotlight problem areas and solutions. To be instruments for change, they've got to have the right metrics, and you've got to hold your teams accountable.
To contact Rohini, go to LinkedIn and Twitter, email her at rohinianand1121@gmail.com and visit her website www.rohinianand.com.
Want to know more about DEI and culture change? Start here
- Blog: How's Your Culture? Doing Fine Or In Drastic Need Of An Overhaul?
- Blog: How Storytelling Can Transform Your Culture And Energize Your Team
- Podcast: Kim Graham Lee—How To Build A Culture Where Men And Women Truly Support Each Other
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. As you know, I'm your host and your guide. And I've started to tell people on our podcast a little bit more about me, because they keep asking, Who are you? So I'm a corporate anthropologist, and I've specialized for most of my career helping organizations and the people inside them change. And you must recognize that people hate change, your brains would just as soon I go away. But the podcast came about after my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, was published and won an award. And my second book just won an award as well, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. I'm honored to be able to share with you my insights into how people can change, and particularly how corporate cultures must change.
So today's guest is a very special woman. I can't wait to share her with you: Rohini Anand. I met Rohini through the Women Business Collaborative, where I'm a member, and she is as well. I read her new book, Leading Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion: A Guide for Systemic Change in Multinational Organizations. Rohini has a wonderful perspective. I'm going to tell you a little bit about her and then let her tell you about her own journey.
But remember, our job is to help you see, feel and think in some new ways so you can do something. And the questions around diversity, equity and inclusion are profound. I cannot tell you how many CEOs have said to me, it took me three months to hire some people to diversify my culture. They only lasted three months. And I said, Okay, we have a bigger question here about what is your culture? And why should people belong to it? And humans want to belong.
So here's Rohini's background. She is a strategic Diversity, Equity and Inclusion expert, highly sought-after board member, a published author and speaker. She is recognized as a pioneer in DEI (Diversity, Equity and Inclusion) and has been on the forefront of leading businesses through lasting change for corporations, not for nonprofit organizations and government agencies worldwide. She was previously senior vice president of corporate responsibility and Global Chief Diversity Officer for Sodexo. And under her leadership, the Sodexo brand became synonymous with leadership in diversity, corporate responsibility and wellness.
And I have a hunch she's going to tell you a little bit about her journey. But I'm excited because both in her book and in her work, she's actually making things happen. And for all of you who are wondering, How do you make DEI happen?, you need to listen carefully because this is what's happening. And now the question is, how can we share it so you can do it as well? Rohini, thank you for joining me today.
Rohini Anand: Thank you. I'm delighted to be with you, Andi. And looking forward to the conversation.
Andi Simon: Let's begin, who is Rohini? What's been your journey? Share it with the listeners, they love the stories.
Rohini Anand: Yeah, as you know, anyone involved in diversity, equity and inclusion work, this book is very personal for them. And my story is integral to who I am. I actually grew up in Mumbai, India, and growing up in India, almost everyone sort of looked like me. It is a country with a lot of diversity, many socio-economic classes, religions, ethnicities, languages, etc. I belong to the majority religion, Hinduism, and surrounded by others like me. I had the privilege of not having to think about my identity. So I moved to the United States as a teenager, and went to graduate school. And that really was my inflection point in my both literal and metaphorical journey.
And I have to say that my identity shifted from being a person who saw herself as the center of her world to being a foreigner to being an immigrant to being a minority, and I was totally unprepared for that. So it was only when I was identified as a minority did I realize the privileges that came with being part of a majority. I was part of the majority growing up in India, but I had not recognized my privilege in that way. And honestly, I was unable to until I was perceived as a minority and I experienced things differently. So the realization that identity is situational is fluid and informs the research that I did for my PhD and still informs my work.
So I would say that this vocation is very personal to me, understanding what it means to be perceived as a minority, as an outsider, is very much at the heart of diversity, equity and inclusion work. And I am fortunate that my vocation and my avocation are perfectly aligned. So it's a little bit about my journey to the work that I do today. I continue to do this work. You're right, I worked for Sodexo for 18 years. And we were hired from Sodexo in 2020, just before COVID hit, was the time to write my book. And since then I've been doing booktalks, strategic coaching and advising, and I'm on several boards, but I continue to do this work that's so meaningful to me. It is part of who I am.
Andi Simon: Well, being who you are, when you were at Sodexo, I have a hunch you explored and learned a great deal about the challenges of building a diverse culture, particularly a global one. Now is that a good place for us to start to talk about the learnings that went on there because it was very profound. You went from India, I've been to India, it's quite a complicated place. And coming here, discovering a culture that had a different attitude, different values, everything about you being here was different. And somehow you had to find a way of belonging, and humans want to belong. Some of the insights that came from the Sodexo experience would be really helpful, I think, to our listeners.
Rohini Anand: So Andi, when I joined Sodexo, there was a fairly serious lawsuit. And I didn't quite understand or really recognize the seriousness of that lawsuit until about six months after I was hired, when it was certified as a class action lawsuit that was settled for over $80 million. It was a discrimination lawsuit filed by African Americans in the company. And I share that because you know what I say in the book, and the journey really was from class action to best in class. So that was the sort of situation that I stepped into.
But with the support of leadership, we were able to change the culture around and became known for leadership and diversity, equity and inclusion in the United States. And then it was a question of scaling this work globally. So what I found was that doing this global DEI work is very complex. It's very dynamic. There's no checklist, there's no playbook, I don't even think any best practices are adequate. But there were these five principles that showed up each time when I did the work that are absolutely critical. And they provide a true line.
Each of the principles is simple. It's a simple statement. It's based on my experiences, but also experiences of my colleagues who've done the heavy lifting in their organizations. They're simple, but they're disruptive. And they don't provide any sort of standards, the plug and play templates based on what's worked in the US, because that's been a foundational mistake—to replicate what works in one part of the world, in other parts of the world.
So these principles can be applied with sensitivity to any culture, and really empower global leaders to develop their own solutions, not to mimic any one experience, but really develop their own solutions. So the principles are, and this is what I think is absolutely foundational in doing this culture change work, because it is about transformation, it's about culture change.
The first step is make it local. And global change has to be anchored in an understanding of the local context. It has to be rooted in the local particulars informed by the history, the culture, the language and mores of each place. We have to consider the power dynamics, identify those that are the subordinate and not subordinate in dominant groups, identify how identity is defined, how it's expressed. But understanding doesn't mean accepting the status quo. Because outside influence can be cancerous for change. They can raise issues that those within a culture may not be able to see. Like, I was not able to see my own privilege, because of power dynamics. But this works best when local change agents are empowered to partner with outside influencers. So it’s about pushing the status quo, disrupting and pushing for change, but doing it with an understanding of the local context.
The second is what I call leaders change to lead change. And we know very well that commitment from senior leadership is absolutely fundamental to ensuring that the DEI is sustained. And when leaders embrace the DEI with authentic purpose and passion, the organization goes from performative action to sustainable progress. So leaders really need to internalize the benefit of doing it to themselves personally, and to the organization, that often requires the destruction of their worldview, and the painful work of introspection. And this happens often through stories, not necessarily data. But I think it's important as leaders do seek out these disruptive experiences as they take ownership of their own learning, and be mindful of the toll that it takes for people with those lived experiences to share the experiences again and again and again. And so it takes leaders who intentionally prioritize the DEI as they would any other business imperative. So that's the second principle: leaders change lead change.
The third is: it's good business to, and without a compelling reason for change. We all know 70% of change efforts fail. But there's reasons this sort of change narrative has to be congruent with the organization's purpose and how business is done.
The fourth principle is: go deep, wide, and inside out. And that really speaks to the fact that organizations are interconnected systems that work in concert with each other. And DEI needs to be infused in the internal processes and systems and externally, so you have to take a systems approach.
And then the last one, the fifth principle is: know what matters and counter. And metrics clearly provide a global framework, a cohesive narrative to spotlight problem areas and solutions. And to be instruments for change, they've got to have the right metrics, and you've got to hold your teams accountable. So make local leaders change to lead change. And it's good business to go deep, wide and inside out and know what matters. These five principles I think are absolutely critical to any change.
Andi Simon: Well, I love your principles. They are very much congruent with the culture change work that we do. But there are some things I'd like to dig a little deeper into, because the leader changing the way they see diversity, and equity and inclusion are essential. They're the leader. The question is, how do you get them to change? Remember, we live the story in our minds. If we don't collaborate with our mind, our mind does exactly what it thinks we want it to do. And so the research on the mind is so compelling.
Now, the question is, how do we get leaders to change that story, so that it isn't the outsider who you're bringing in sort of gratuitously, the outsider is essential to the growth of the organization, and how we now build a culture where we value that diversity as opposed to want to eliminate it, or control it or put it into a certain box. The thing that always worries me, having been an executive in two banks, you said you tend to bring in the diversity and put them into buckets where they belong. And they were sort of a stereotype of what kind of jobs they should hold, and where those people should be. And that by itself wasn't diversity, or equity or inclusion. It was a different way of building mosaics, which wasn't particularly good. Share with us. And I'm particularly interested in, How do I start with the leader? Because I think that's where we have to start.
Rohini Anand: You're absolutely right, we do have to start there. Let me share two quick stories. So you know, one story is about a particular leader who mentored a woman who is part of the organization, and she managed high security facilities. And after mentoring her, he came to me and he said, "If you had presented me with two candidates, a male and a female, and asked me to hire the best qualified candidate for a high security facility, I would have chosen the man because you need an aggressive, assertive leadership style. So it's a dangerous environment, I would never have chosen the woman." But he says, after having mentored this woman, who's extremely effective, "She has a different leadership style. And she is very effective. She gets the assignment. I will never let an unconscious bias impact my talent decisions again."
So I think that's the story of basically providing leaders with disruptive experiences that help to shake their worldview, provide them a different perspective, expose them to people who are not necessarily like themselves, in this case, a woman with a different leadership style, so that they can actually do this work of introspection and emerge in a way that really shifts their perspective, their thinking, their worldview. We don't know what we don't know. So this leader was able to internalize that experience.
The other story that I have is a leader who listened to all these stories about diversity, equity and inclusion and was not buying. I had some Sodexo specific data, but he was not necessarily convinced. He got involved in a cross-company mentoring program along with other CEOs. He wanted to network with other CEOs and this was networking on the topic of diversity and he mentored a woman from a different organization and developed a trusting relationship with her. She got laid off, and she had discussed and shared with him her lived experiences being marginalized, being discriminated against as the only woman on the executive team, and he listened with sort of this newfound interest.
And he came to me and he said, "I just cannot believe that women have these kinds of experiences in the workplace. She was the only woman on her executive team." He said, "This is unacceptable. I want all 12 of my direct reports to mentor a woman from a different part of the organization." So they did, and of the 12 women that were mentored/sponsored, because it wasn't just mentoring, these were senior executives who actually sponsored these women, nine out of the 12 got senior positions, either as country heads, or heads of large pieces of business. Now, again, it took the lived experiences of this woman. It came close to home, he developed a relationship with her. He listened to her, and it was her lived experiences that helped to shift his perspective.
So I think storytelling and lived experiences can be very beneficial. But I will caution that it is very tiring for those that have experienced these lived experiences to share them again and again and again. And we have to really maximize the impact of those lived experiences. But also, leaders have to take responsibility for their own learning at the end of the day. So I think those are sort of two stories. I have one more if you have time.
Andi Simon: I'm a storyteller. And I think that what you capture in the story, that you said that the leaders have to change their leadership. And the question is, Okay, how do I do that? And experiential learning is where we learn best. You can't learn from a book and you can't learn from listening to me. What is it you really mean? How does that really feel? Another story?
Rohini Anand: So this story is actually the CEO, previous year, to Excel. And globally, as you know, most companies focus on gender just because race and ethnicity translates very differently in different parts of the world. It doesn't translate in many parts of the world. And this was a Frenchman in France. The word "race" was actually struck from the French constitution in 2018, for historical reasons. So when we started talking about ethnicity and race, he said to me, "Why dilute the focus on gender by bringing in all these other strands of diversity, because race doesn't translate in France, it doesn't translate in many parts of Europe." And he was right. And so I realized that I needed to expand his worldview. And to do that, I invited him to an employee resource group meeting by the African American employee resource group in the United States.
He attended that meeting, one of maybe two French men who were at that meeting, one of the only white men at the meeting. He listened to the lived experiences, particularly of the Black men, Black leaders in that meeting. And it was very moving, because now he knew these people, again, these stories came close to home. He listened to the experiences outside and within the organization, so that listening to the lived experiences, combined with his experience of being a minority, was very disruptive for him. And he went on after the murder of George Floyd to send this really heartfelt message to the organization, something he wouldn't have done under normal circumstances, and in succession planning meetings and talent review discussions.
Yes, you cannot gather data about people's race and ethnicity in Europe, but nothing, no one stops you from asking the questions. So when individuals say, "We have diversity, we have Belgians, and we have folks from the Netherlands and from Switzerland and Austria, and Germany," the question would be, "That's wonderful. And how many of them are Black people?" So he was able to ask those questions. Again, it was a very disruptive experience for him. And what's wonderful is, many of these leaders have gone on to other organizations and have taken this secessionist connection, this learning that they've had, and become allies and started to bring about the culture change in the other organizations.
Andi Simon: You are alluding to something very important. Two things I want to talk about. People are copycats, and they need to see others. You can call them role models, but unless somebody who they can admire is doing something differently, they would just as soon move away from it, hijack it and not be the solo solitary leader there. So building that base is important.
Rohini Anand: If I can just add to that, you're absolutely right, Andi. And when he talks about this notion of belonging, we often say an employee's sense of belonging to the culture of an organization, but there's another dimension of belonging. And that dimension of belonging is the need for a leader and organization to belong to an elite group of companies that are committed to DEI. So I want to identify with other companies that are seen as diversity elite companies and want to be part of that. There's this desire to belong to other organizations that are seen as having credibility.
Andi Simon: Because they feed off each other. Because the contagion is a healthy one, because if I'm doing it, and they're doing it, somehow together, the whole ship rises. But if I'm doing it alone, that's a long road home all by myself, solitary. It's very challenging. The other side of what you were talking about, though, I experienced as a woman, and I am not a woman of color, although I have a niece who's biracial, and we talk all the time about the challenges of being different.
I was an executive in a bank, and I went to a board meeting, and there were 49 men, a nun and me. I didn't say anything. And for many years, I was the sole woman on any executive team. And the challenge for a woman in that story is how to navigate what role to play. We're role players, I often think of life as theater. And I remember changing the conversations. I learned new ways of behaving, how to dress, how to perform, particularly when you are in a room of mostly men, and you are not exactly being asked anything to contribute. I can't tell you how many times I was the only or among the few. And I do think it's changing. And I'm glad that I can date myself.
But the other thing is, how do you advise or counsel those who are now being brought in to diversify? The gentleman I mentioned who spent three months recruiting a woman of color to join his organization and they only stayed three months was angry at her for not belonging. And I said to him, "Why is it her problem? And a combination? It's not your problem or her problem? You brought her into a place that wasn't welcoming, where there was nobody who looked like her. How are you going to change this? And what is the role of the person being anointed with this diversity banner to have to come in and do something for you?" Some advice or experiences, stories to share?
Rohini Anand: In terms of being the only, and you know, I think a woman of color is the double only, which is the other piece, as a woman and as a woman of color. And I think you're right, I think very often, when you are the only one, it's difficult to speak up. I do think that is what helps a lot, is if you can get allies and male allies within the room. So having the conversations outside to find out who can be an ally, who can amplify your voice, who can say when you talk, "That will work." Who can say, "We haven't heard from Rohini yet, perhaps we should hear what she has to contribute." Those kinds of allies I think are really important. It's sort of a double edged sword, because in a sense, usually the allies are the ones who have the power, the ones with the dominant group are white males. So in a sense, we're asking someone to validate us as women, aren't we.
And the other side of it is, in some senses, you're using their power to upend their power. So there's two sides to this. And I think it has to be used strategically, but I think allies are one piece.
I think the other piece of advice that I would give is, just be true to who you are, you have to be authentic. I think imitating someone else's leadership style or a male style does not work because it does us a disservice. I think being authentic is absolutely critical.
And I think the third piece is, before you can join an organization, do research, because an organization that is not welcoming of someone who looks like you doesn't deserve you. So do your research. And if you need to, walk away. There are other options that you have, particularly today with the talent shortages. So I think that organizations will have to change in order to provide a welcoming environment. I have millennial daughters, and you know, I know numerous people who have walked away from organizations because they didn't see someone like themselves. And they didn't think that it was a female friendly organization.
Andi Simon: Well, as I'm listening to you, it's not a bad time to think about wrapping up because you and I could talk for a long time about this. And I know you can with great expertise. I think that the times are changing, and I'd like our listeners to walk away from Rohini and take away two or three things that you think they should focus on. And you have your principles, I like them. I love the fact that we're talking about how to make them actionable principles, but what do you actually do if you're going to do it local, what would be the top two or three things that they should remember, because I want them to do something when they leave.
Rohini Anand: So I think the one piece of change really happens at the intersection of people and processes, and you have to impact both. So I would encourage, on the personal level, to see how you can be an ally for others regardless of who they are in the organization. And then I would say, look at how you can dismantle those processes that are tenacious, that have advantages for some and have created disadvantages for others. So, work both the people and the process piece.
And then I think this power of storytelling is amazing. Even in terms of bringing along allies, I think it's really important, but I think, use those stories with discretion because of the toll it takes on those that have lived experiences. But you know, work at the intersection of people and processes would be my one big takeaway.
Andi Simon: Where can they find both you and your book, to reach you?
Rohini Anand: Thank you so much. So my website is www.rohini.com. And my book, Leading Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, is available on Amazon, and all of the other major outlets. Also you can order it through my website.
Andi Simon: It's a great book. It's great to read it. I want to add one last thought to our listeners. If you don't know Judith Glaser's work on conversational intelligence, go take a look at it. Judith was an observational, an organizational anthropologist who passed away a couple of years ago, but when she was doing neuroscience work, she said something very profound. If you say, "I'm the brain," it gets full of cortisol and flies away from it, it becomes a battleground. It's a threat. But if you say, "We, the oxytocin, the bonding hormones, really make love there."
So as you're thinking about this, diversity, equity, inclusion is about us. And if you start talking about what we can do together, it's a much healthier environment for us to actually do it, the bonding that happens. It is natural for the brain. And so don't underestimate the power of the body to respond to the way you're talking and the conversations that we're having today, around how do we build a better world where people are part of a larger organization that can all together rise, and do better together because they care about each other. And I can't tell you what a pleasure it's been to have you here today. Thank you. Rohini.
Rohini Anand: Thank you, Andi. This is wonderful.
Andi Simon: So I'll wrap up for my listeners and my viewers. My audience is terrific. You've put us in the top 5% of podcasts globally. Thank you so much. And you send me great people to interview which I just enjoy tremendously. And my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways to do something that you hate to do: embrace change. These are changing times. Please open up and try to do it with great joy. Bye bye now. Have a great day. Thank you.
Hear how to see through a fresh lens, then embrace the new
Today we have Maria Lizza Bowen, a scientist and Oncology Clinical Development Director with almost 30 years in the pharmaceutical industry. She has a new book that came out in March that I found very interesting: Reflect: A Perspective on Understanding Your Reality and Becoming Unstuck. If this sounds like something I would like, you are right. You will love it as well. Maria's message is so important: In just about any situation, be it a performance review or co-worker interaction, when you start to get nervous and feel "off," don't run away from it. Face it. Embrace it. Be vulnerable. And then maybe, like Maria, your whole life will change. Listen in, then try it!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some of the key themes Maria and I focus on
- There is no truth or reality. Our minds create stories, and those become our illusion of reality. We live those illusions as if they are the only options until something happens and we must change. Remember, people hate change.
It makes our brains work too hard, so we flee the unfamiliar. We share ideas about how to see things through a fresh lens—and then embrace the new. - What are you missing that is all around you? We talk about our filters that block out great ideas or experiences that just don’t fit our realities. So what we are missing that could help us build that new sandbox?
- Gratitude. Maria and I both believe that gratitude is essential to your personal well-being. So, spend some time at the end of every day expressing your gratitude.
Come along, and let’s share a journey of discovery. To contact Maria, find her on LinkedIn or send her an email at maria.lizza@hotmail.com.
Ready to embrace change, not flee from it so you can soar? Start here
- Blog: Now That You Have Your Crisis, What Do You Change?
- Blog: How To Thrive In Today's Crazy World? Make Change Your Friend
- Podcast: Rita McGrath—Don't Run From Change, Embrace It!
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can get off the brink and soar again. It's not a time when things are easy or simple. Fastest has become the new new. You've got to be really quick, agile, adaptive, and begin to see things that are all around you. Remember your mind fights you, it does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. And you don't ever see all the stuff that's happening here. It feels dangerous and unsafe. And that's really where you want to be going.
So today, I want to help you do that. I have with me today Maria Lizza Bowen. She is just a fantastic woman with a great background and a new book. And I'm going to talk to you today about her book. Let me tell you about her and then she will tell you about her own journey. Her name is Maria Lizza Bowen. She's a scientist and Oncology Clinical Development Director. And you're going to say to me, "Really? So you're bringing her to us so we can help get off the brink as well?"
Just listen carefully. She has almost 30 years of pharmaceutical experience. Her vast experience and expertise in a variety of disciplines is a real benefit for us on a topic that you probably aren't familiar with. She holds the knowledge in quality assurance in pharmaceutical manufacturing, clinical cancer research, program management, talent management. We have a very talented woman here with us today. She is very curious. It's so interesting. So many of my podcasters recently talked about curiosity, Patrick Van Gorder spoke about curiosity. The curiosity quotient has become invoked and it's truly very important, because we're all going through change.
And so today, we're going to really look at her new book, as well. It's called Reflect: A Perspective on Understanding Your Reality and Becoming Unstuck. I'll say that again. Think about how timely this is. Reflect: A Perspective on Understanding Your Reality and Becoming Unstuck. And it's available on Amazon. It just came out and it's ready for you to go buy and enjoy. Maria, thank you so much for being with me today.
Maria Lizza Bowen: Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm very excited to be here.
Andi Simon: Tell the listener, who is Maria? And what's your journey? And how did you get to write a book. It's all sort of loaded on your own pharmaceutical and you're in cancer research, and I love the title. What's it all about?
Maria Lizza Bowen: Well, this book is really about, it's very foundational. It's just about trying to understand what reality means to each of us. And how we can use that to our advantage to get out of a rut or just get unstuck, really. I've been in the pharmaceutical industry for almost 30 years. And I always thought I had two jobs. One is the work that I do every day. And the other one, I’m kind of a people scientist, I always have been since I was a little girl. And just constantly, I'm just fascinated with and always thinking about those things. Why are we here?
I remember being four years old, just thinking about the strangest things probably most kids don't think about, like death. So I'm a clinical scientist, and also a people scientist. And that's why I wrote the book. I think going through the pharmaceutical industry is very intense, especially oncology. It really gave me a fabulous platform to understand people and how we all work together. And this whole business these days about what's right and what's wrong, and so many companies and work environments, no matter where you're at, everything's siloed. It's your perspective versus everyone else's. And I think that sometimes gets us stuck because we identify with what's going on outside of us, versus really connecting with what is meaningful to us.
And so sometimes we'll do things because people expect us to do them versus doing them because we love doing it. I have to be honest writing this, I don't know why I did it. I think it was kind of in the car and so on, but it almost enriched what I did, what I do every day. I'm always a people pleaser and I finally admitted it, and an angry, resentful one. But nonetheless, someone who will go out of my way to help other people at the expense of my own needs. So I think a lot of my turmoil, it kind of caught up to me.
Andi Simon: Knowing a little bit about you, and what you're telling us here, how did you get into the pharmaceutical business? What was your journey?
Maria Lizza Bowen: Here comes my brothers, my brothers. I have four older brothers. The oldest one was in pharmaceuticals. And he introduced me. He was a chemist for probably a decade. And my first job was in molecular biology labs. So it was such a wonderful journey, all the way through. I worked in the lab for about a decade, or not quite, about eight years, and then got into clinical research. And within the first year of clinical, I think it was 2000 to 2001 or 2002, I ended up focusing on oncology. So I've been in that area of clinical research for a long time. And actually took a little bit of time and worked with my brother at one point because just a change, then I came back into clinical research. And that's what I'm continuing to do. I love it.
Andi Simon: Well, I think that's really beautiful. And in the process, you decided you had a story to tell, because books are stories. So let's go into the story that you wanted to tell. Is this autobiographical? Is this data reflective? Give us some perspective of what you've captured in the stream tool there.
Maria Lizza Bowen: So it wasn't exactly just one story. But it was more or less, everything going wrong in my life at once. My mom, she had Alzheimer's. Watching her progress, and just changing jobs, whatever was going on at the time, all these problems are popping up. And I'm like, Why me? Why is this always happening to me? I was so worried about what was going on in the outside. So I got through it, I survived, like most of us, right? And just as the years went by, every time I found myself in a tough spot, I got super curious and said, Why is this happening?
And I think that's what led to it. The last time I was in a tough situation, a really tough situation, I saw things from a different perspective. I didn't make excuses, I didn't walk away from any opportunities or situations that were bad, I just kind of stuck there. And I just walked through it. And it was life changing. And by doing that, I was also able to help other people around me because you actually allow yourself to become vulnerable and that's really the key, that allowing yourself to become vulnerable.
So an opportunity came up by accident, I took a chance. And someone contacted me to write a book, and I did it. And I realized that it was perfect timing, because your question, What is it about? There are definitely examples here, but it's really to help other people. It's kind of a self help book. And it's not a bunch of steps, although you probably can break it out into two steps.
The biggest step is to just try and understand yourself better. And so I walked through what reality is and why it's not so reliable, our own reality that we create, as well as other people's, because their views and perspectives and fears and hurts and experiences and everything else that you know they go through, they project onto you and you do the same: you project your story onto them and you only see what you want to see, really.
So whatever you're focusing on, that's what you're going to see. If you're giving advice to someone after you just went through a horrible marriage, you're going to tell someone that's looking to get married, Don't do it. It's horrible. Right? It's protective. And we have to realize that that's just not reality. You've got to go inside and see what it is. So there's no problem with taking information from other people. But take what you need and leave the rest behind.
Andi Simon: Well, I'm really quite fascinated because we've learned from the neurosciences and the cognitive sciences that your mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. And that story in there is like a movie set that you live every day, that reality in your mind. But it's only an illusion of what reality is. And now the question you're saying is, rather than let others define you, you begin to understand who's inside. Can you share with us a little about the process of self discovery? Because I think this is really the essence of where you're at.
Maria Lizza Bowen: Yes. So in my spare time, I love to read physics books. I don't know why, it's just maybe because it goes down to the basics, like, What are we here for? And for years, I had no clue what I was reading, I just kept reading, just fascinated, and also my mom read a lot, but she had tons of psychology books, Carl Jung, and all these different psychologists and self-help. And I think between that, and just being super curious, I really kind of pull from a bunch of different areas. It's not only what I do every day, and those experiences, but what I read about reality and physics. I think of Rumi, the 11th century philosopher. I never heard of him before. And just over the last year, he's been popping up a lot. And that influenced me so much. All these different pieces coming together made the whole picture for me a little bit more digestible. I was able to see things a little more clearly for myself.
Andi Simon: In the process of seeing more clearly for yourself, and then sharing it with others, what have you discovered about yourself? Can you share it?
Maria Lizza Bowen: So the thing that I think I really discovered about myself is, just focusing on what's going on inside and paying attention to your feelings is super important. Growing up after four boys, I was pushing it aside. Everybody probably thought I was crazy and emotional and all that stuff. But I thought I was pushing things away. And I used anger as a way of covering up hurt and pain. So I kind of pushed that outside of me.
I love to be creative, too. But I have to go the science route. So I always kind of pushed the things that really came natural to me, pushed them away. So being able to be vulnerable, accept the things that make you happy, and look inside yourself and understand the triggers. Why are you being triggered by certain things? Just take a little bit of time to think about it, instead of running away from it, will get you so far. It doesn't even take long. It's just that focus, and we're all so all over the place these days. You know, we have the phones and the computers and everything at our fingertips. So we never take time out. You gotta take time out and think about your life.
Andi Simon: I think that's very profound and very important. Now, as you're thinking about this, it's reflective, as your title is, going backwards. How was it intentional for going forward? How do you now build a life that is more reflective, more open? Where are your vulnerabilities? Can you share with us some of your perspective there?
Maria Lizza Bowen: It's just really allowing myself to be vulnerable. I think one of the biggest things that really made a difference, I can relate the one example from the book. I was not in a good space, everything was going around, this was going back to the first conversation we had. Everything was going wrong. I wasn't myself at work. I was doing things to please other people, doing what I thought was expected of me even though my heart wasn't in it. And it's not that I didn't love what I was doing, I just was distracted. And it was time for my review. And my boss, who was really a tough boss, was not afraid to tell you what was wrong or who was around to hear and it didn't matter. And it was time for my review.
I got in there and he just ripped me apart. He ripped me apart. And I thought to myself, What am I going to do? He's right, you know, I could have cried, I could have walked away, I could have made excuses, I could have blamed other people. That's a big one, blaming. So instead of blaming, I just stood there, and I listened to him. I actually listened to the words that were coming out of his mouth. And I surrendered in that moment and had no clue what I was gonna say, or how I was gonna respond. And he said to me, "What do you think?" And I looked him straight in the eye and said, "You're right. You're absolutely right. Can you help me?"
He went from complete rigidity to like, a big snow puff, a big puff of kindness. His whole disposition changed. And he said, "I would be delighted. I would absolutely love to help you." And from that day forward, everything still going wrong, I was able to be myself in person, because there was nothing left, there was nowhere to hide. Allowing yourself to be that vulnerable, it's not hard. It's a choice.
Andi Simon: Did you find that as he helped you, your attitude toward the job was different, that you were a sponge learning? Or how did your persona change as well?
Maria Lizza Bowen: My focus changed. Instead of wondering, "What are people thinking? Am I doing this right?" I was just curious. I allowed that little child to come out and be happy about what I was doing right in front of me. I learned a ton with this and even several years later. I ran into him at a big conference, and it could have been a very different situation. He literally greeted me with a big warm hug and "How are you?" and started to tell everyone all the nice things that I did when I worked there. So it could have been very different. But when you allow yourself to be real, really who you are, not what other people expect you to be or what you think you are, think rather than feel, that it opens you up to really get in touch with what makes you tick.
Andi Simon: It also sounds like you don't have to do it alone. This illustrative story was very profound, because alone you were living it, but together with this gentleman, you could grow into bigger. And so belonging, and being bigger, is important here because others can help you see yourself through a fresh lens, begin to reflect on who you are, and begin to really grow. Is that what you're saying?
Maria Lizza Bowen: Absolutely. And whether you're on the giving side, or the receiving side...I also had several direct reports. I'm just thinking about the review period, being able to seriously talk to somebody and let your guard down. They're automatically going to let their guard down. So, the big thing, especially today, you don't have to agree with everything that everyone says, but if you give yourself a little bit of a chance to literally listen to them and not formulate or judge or blame yourself, the other, you put yourself in a space to really hear. And that's the difference, you can really get to the heart of the matter.
And also having a good intention, having good intentions. I think I cover every topic in the book. It's just about 175 pages, but there's everything from understanding your triggers to changing things around and realizing that everything is dynamic. Everything in our lives is not static, life keeps moving, things keep changing you, you can take that opportunity to change in a direction that you intend rather than having things happen to you.
I think the way you do that is really going inside and understanding what is important to you. And allowing yourself to be complete. I mentioned before about creativity. I incorporated that into my job and it just enriched what I do every day. And it's so powerful and then people get excited around you because you're excited.
Andi Simon: Your life has been a journey of hurdles and jumping over them and being transformed and blossoming into a beautiful woman. This is so cool. We're just about ready to wrap up our conversation. Are there a couple of things you want the listener to not forget, any things you want to share?
Maria Lizza Bowen: Yes, silly but true. When you start to get nervous and feel anything that feels off, don't run away from it. Take a second to really ask yourself, Why am I feeling this way? Sometimes you don't even know. But if you give yourself a few moments, instead of turning your head and distracting yourself and saying, Oh, it's nothing, it's in you, no, no, it is something and it's going to get you. Any little clue that you can unearth about yourself is going to put you off in the right direction. So that's one big piece of advice: just allow yourself to understand and process what you're going through.
Andi Simon: That's not a small idea. That's a big idea. Because you're suggesting that people trust their feelings. Remember, we decide with the heart and with the eyes, but not as well as we think we do. And so this is a great time for you to reflect on those feelings that don't feel quite right. As opposed to fighting them, or fleeing them or appeasing them, deleting them...listen to your heart. It's okay, there's something coming to you. And your vulnerability, that word like curious has become quite cliched. Don't think of it that way. It's okay to feel and it's okay to think about yourself through a fresh lens. It's okay. You know, you're changing.
As Maria shared her story, I think all of us have had that situation where we thought we were doing okay, but it really wasn't okay enough. Or, we really don't understand expectations and haven't managed them particularly well. There's something that disconnected. And all of a sudden, you needed a little bit of a, Let's see if we can help you get better. And then also you bloomed because you didn't know what you didn't know. This has been such fun. If they want to buy the book, where should they get it?
Maria Lizza Bowen: So right now it's being sold only on Amazon. And you can also check out my website, it's www.Marializzabowen.com.
Andi Simon: The book: Reflect: A Perspective on Understanding Your Reality and Becoming Unstuck. That's pretty cool. That's a great cover. I think this has been such a pleasure. I hope the book does very well. And I hope our audience, our listeners and our viewers can really understand what Maria's passion is. And her purpose is to help you, like I am, to see, feel and think in new ways so you can find the best that you can be.
I want to thank you for joining us. I want to thank my audience for coming and for pushing us into the top 5% of podcasts globally. And that's really an honor. And I'm delighted with both of my books. Now I have one Axiom Business Book Award. My Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business won the 2022 Axiom Best Business Book for Women in Business category, and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights won the 2017 Axiom Women’s Best Business Book. I can only tell you that my books are designed to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can become the best that you can be.
And I think that this is a time for embracing change, making change your friend, instead of fleeing it or fearing it. The times are changing, embrace them because they're not going away. You can't put that genie back in the bottle. It's going to keep coming at you. And it's a great time to be fast and agile and adaptive and have fun. You can reach me, bring me your ideas, at info@andisimon.com. I'd love to hear from my listeners. You bring me all kinds of good people to interview like Maria, and I'm delighted to share her with you today. Maria, thanks again for joining me.
Maria Lizza Bowen: Thank you so much and congratulations.
Andi Simon: Thank you, and congratulations on your book. Alright, everybody, I will say goodbye. Have a wonderful day and thanks for joining us.
Hear how to make your website your best marketing tool
We're going to do three things today for my audience as you're listening in or watching. First, Jann Mirchandani will tell you about her own journey as a marketing maven. Then we're going to talk about what Google has done to change the way we search for what we want to buy or answers to what we want to know. For solutions to what you need, you start by asking Google. Have a physical ailment? You ask Dr. Google. Second, do you know why that is so important for your business and its image, identity, brand, presence and what you communicate in the marketplace? And third, what do you need to do to build a brand identity? How can you create the story you want for your business? If you have a company or want to start one, this is for you!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Can Jann help you?
I have known Jann Mirchandani for a long time, and she has built several websites for our clients. While she was speaking at a Westchester Business Council event, her panelists were talking about LinkedIn, Instagram and social media. I am sure that you may be worried about that as well. Jann focused on building a great website foundation for your social presence because without a good foundation you don't exist.
Where should you focus if you want to build your digital presence?
Listen in as Jann and I talk about something we believe to be an essential part of our personal and professional lives: how we show up online. How are you? If you want to contact Jann directly, you can find her on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter, or you can send her an email at jann@westchestermarketingcafe.com. And check out her own website Westchester Marketing Café.
To know more about building a terrific website that will work hard for you:
- Blog: Terrific Websites to Empower Successful Women Entrepreneurs
- Podcast: Lisa Staff and Deevo Tindall—Social, Video, Digital: How Can You Build A Personal Brand Today?
- White paper: How Important is a Social Media Strategy to an Inbound Marketing Effort?
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. Can you believe it, this is our 324th podcast. We've been ranked in the top 5% of global podcasts and the top 20 of futurists podcasts. So to you, our listeners and our audience, I can't thank you enough for listening and sharing. And today I have a fantastic woman I want you to meet: Jann Mirchandani is a fantastic website designer, and understands the internet and the SEO of things. We’ve had her create several websites for our clients and they are fantastic. And it's fun to work with Jann because she really understands what Google has done. They've transformed the buyer's journey. The first thing you're going to think about when you have a need is to go online and search for it. And there is Jann's website waiting for you. Jann, thank you so much for joining me today.
Jann Mirchandani: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Andi Simon: We're going to do three things today for my audience as you're listening in or watching. First, I want Jann to tell you about her own journey. You know how important that is to set the stage. Then we're going to talk about what Google has done to change the way we search, buy and find solutions to what we need. And why that is so important for your identity, your brand, your presence and what you communicate in the marketplace.
Now at a Westchester Business Council event where Jann was speaking, the others were talking about LinkedIn and social and Instagram. You may be worried about that as well. But without a good foundation on your website, with your content, with your blogs, you don't exist. And the first thing someone will do if they see an Instagram thing is cool. So why aren't you thinking web first and that website is so important. Jann, thank you for being here.
Jann Mirchandani: Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Andi Simon: Tell them about yourself. Who is Jann?
Jann Mirchandani: So I actually started my career back in the day, really, before websites were even a thing. In fact, it's just kind of a funny aside, I remember when I was in high school, and they brought in one of the first desktop computers, and I was like, I was never going to use that thing. And so I clearly can't say that I was very forward thinking back then. But obviously, over the many years, my actual career kind of started in marketing. In corporate, I worked for several large asset management companies back in the day. And then my company was merging with another company, and I was fortunate enough to get a package. And they actually became my first client. It was just such a funny kind of coincidence.
My intention really was at the time I was working, to keep in marketing. I was sort of specializing in that. Back then, it was desktop publishing. So I started and then I started my family around that same time. It was very difficult to balance the two. So I really started changing my focus to working with smaller organizations and smaller businesses. And what I realized in fairly short order was that it was really the technology, it was really the internet of things, that businesses and small business owners were saying, "We really need to understand this. It's supposed to be the end-all and be-all and it's easy, and we should be able to get in here, but I'm afraid."
And there's just really a dearth of experts to sherpa the small business owners and nonprofit organizations through getting a website up and running and all of that. So I really did a complete pivot and went all in on just the digital and website design. And I taught myself. I took what I had learned over a decade-plus of marketing, and then taught myself the technology. And that, to me, is really the beauty of it. It's that sweet spot between communicating your unique selling proposition and what makes you special, with also the nerdy, geeky things of how we can communicate that effectively online. That was sort of a not-so-straight path to where I got to where I am now.
Andi Simon: Well, I bet you can also reflect out to our audience about what your clients are asking for or thinking about, and perhaps missing, because searches become the way people find things. I had a great client in Texas, he had a foundry and his clients stopped picking up the telephone. And the sales guys were having a terrible time getting inside to buyers who they used to use. And so when I went out to find out what was happening, Boomer buyers had retired and the 30-somethings didn't use the telephone. And they laughed. They said, Well, we don't pick up the phone, we go online, we go searching. And he said to me, That's how they buy now. I said, Yes, that's how people buy now. So that gives us a little of the evolution of both search and the web.
Jann Mirchandani: You know, it's interesting, because I had a conversation not that long ago with a client that was very similar. He found me on Google, and wasn't anybody that I had any experience with. He says, "I'm not getting any phone calls. I'm not getting any inquiries from my website, what's going on?" And I went in, and sure enough, he wasn't getting found on any of the search engines, so we won't get into that whole nonsense, because it was a mistake that had been made by his previous developer. That was both phone calls, and emails, and warm inquiries.
And statistics show, even if somebody has a friend and business card, the first thing that they're going to do is look you up online. They're going to go to your website and check you out even before they pick up the phone or send an email inquiry. Statistics and surveys have borne that out. So they're definitely going to your website, even if those are just the referrals. What about all of the people who don't even know that you exist, and don't know anybody who's going to refer you?
People who are doing a Google search if they're looking for an attorney, if they're looking for any kind of service provider, they're going to do a Google search. They're doing their due diligence, that is where they start. We are living in the age of educated consumers. So to try and swim upstream, to me, just does not make sense. So I always tell clients when they say, We need to joog up our website, we need to make it look a little bit nicer. And I'm like, Well, that's part of it, but the reality is, you need to think about what you're saying. Who are you communicating with? Are you really attracting your best customers? Or are you just trying to throw spaghetti against the wall and say, These are all of our list of services. You know, it's a little bit more nuanced than that. So you really do need to think about your audience first, and not just features and benefits.
Andi Simon: Well, it's not a brochure. And the problem is, when you think of it as an online brochure, it's flat, and it offers you no value. And quite frankly, like a brochure, you hope people read it, maybe. But it doesn't provide any service. So my pitch always is, What's your value? Because it comes through before anyone has come to you, or even after it's on your web. So at SAMC we make sure there are 10 areas where we score highly. So you want to Google corporate anthropologist, on the first page on my blog about why culture change is essential if you're going to change, is on the first page and may not be the first one. But it's down within the first few. Blue Ocean Strategy® expert. I can't beat the book, but I'm on that second page. Sometimes my stuff's on the first page.
Think through one of the keywords that you want to be known for. What's your authority? Because search is looking for an authority. And the second thing that we've learned, and I'm sure you tell this to your clients, is, Google's already gone local to ask, Who's a good attorney near me? What's a restaurant near me? It already knows you want to go near me.
Jann Mirchandani: Right, it's a numbers game. 100%. And, what you said too about which search terms. What do you want to be known for? One of the first things that I counsel my clients on is, it's not necessarily how you identify yourself, because many of us fall into, "I do website design and development." We get very jargony, very quickly, because that's the language of our profession. That's not necessarily what our best clientele are looking for. Because they don't know the language of our profession. So you got to throw the jargon out the window to a large extent.
It goes back to what I was saying before about your audience first, what are they looking for, and it may not be the very professional jargon terms that you think of yourself in terms of. You just are always going back to clients first, and then what you're talking about in terms of local search. It's a numbers game. So if you're getting 100,000 visits to your website and of those, 1% is your ideal client, versus 1000 visits to your website and 50% of those are your ideal client. The point you really want to make sure that you're focusing on is your ideal client. If somebody's doing a search for Apple, are they looking for going apple picking with their family, or are they looking for an iMac?
When you're looking at the search, are you being found for the right terms, and is it what your audience is looking for. And it may be, it may be some of that jargon. If you're looking for other professionals, and I certainly know clients and I have other industry professionals that refer business to me. So maybe you do want to attract people with some of that, and it goes right directly to what you're talking about in terms of thought leadership and being really known for your expertise and being solid in your core expertise.
Andi Simon: It's not all that different from life before the internet, because we forget that people buy from people. And so the whole process is, how do you make yourself come alive online. I had one client and he downloaded pages off my website underlined in yellow. I was in shock. He knew enough about me, he'd watched the videos. But that was how he bought it. But it was an interesting experience on my part because he was looking for content to pre-legitimize his decision to contact us.
Last week, we actually had somebody who found us online because they wanted to do a culture change project and needed the Organizational Cultural Assessment Instrument. Or conversely, they wanted to do culture change and found me with the OCAI. I'm never quite sure what it was. But all of this comes down to, once you have your website, think backwards. What are people searching for, not just a word. The word culture has millions of searches, but that's not what you want. You want a culture change expert in New York or something that gives it a long tail that locks you in, and then you better have it on your website so that this wonderful person who's looking for you can find you, which sounds so mysterious, but that's how the world is working now.
Jann Mirchandani: You said long term keyword, which is how to think about: How do we own our own searches? We put in a question. It might be a very long question because that's how we're getting all of those little markers into the search engine to say, I'm looking for all of this. And the other thing that people don't often realize in terms of the SEO on their website, and when I say SEO, I'm really just talking about the organic, I'm not talking about paid placement, I'm not talking about paid ads, or anything. It's really just about people finding you organically. What people don't realize is, they think, "I need to optimize my website," which of course you do, but your website isn't showing up for search results. A page on your website and an article that you have written, a video that you have shared, it's showing up in the search results.
This is the other thing I see with clients a lot, especially on their home page is: We have to put everything on the home page because that's where people are going to be coming in. We have to rethink why we call it a home page, but that's only a percentage of your visitors. All of those other articles, all of that other material that you're sharing on your website, is conveying your thought leadership and your expertise and your knowledge and your personality. And so that's going to be a large part of it as well. And that's what's going to bubble to the surface for the search results.
Andi Simon: Now, let's go a little further because there's a whole world of backlinks. You know, your ranking depends on how others have linked back to you for something. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Jann Mirchandani: Yeah, I mean, it's a great way. I share articles all the time about tools that I love to use for clients, and I will link to those sources. So that gives them sort of additional SEO tools too. When people share your information, whether we were not pushing too hard on social media, that's a whole other animal, but sharing on social media, sharing on other websites, other credentialed websites, other really substantial websites, when they're linking back and saying, "Here's an interesting article that Andrea Simon wrote about creating change in your organization." That all lends credence and lends authority to your information and your expertise.
So to the extent that you can guest blog somewhere, do a podcast somewhere, all of that information then gets shared. Maybe shared in the original source, but then links back hopefully to your website, as well. You said something interesting earlier about it's not so different than how it was in the ancient days, pre-internet. It really is the same how people behave. We have not evolved in the last 20 years, our tools have changed. Our tools have certainly evolved, but how we make decisions is very much the same. We base our decisions based on who we know, and trust, who we like, who we feel comfortable with, to the extent that networking with others now means connecting and collaborating with others and sharing others. "This is somebody that I know and trust, and I feel confident recommending them." That all lends credibility, not only to the others, but to you as well.
Andi Simon: You know, as you're talking, one of the websites you built for us was for a client, and they do a good deal of blogging, and I'm showcasing their customers on their site. Now, often when I'm working with clients, we have two leadership academies, and I talked about belonging cues. This builds trust because they become icons for others who are looking for people just like me, so that if you can do it for them, you might be able to do it for me. So even our podcasts and celebrating others, it's not about us, it's about collaborating, belonging. And these are the kinds of folks I want to share with our audience. They know that we're good at whatever it is that we're doing here.
But I do think the world of the web is mysterious. We set up small businesses, not-for-profits, and I'm not quite sure why they don't realize that they go shopping the same way they want to find something. But they don't really think of it for their own company in the same fashion, as if they would buy me as an attorney or an accounting firm or whatever. And well, why wouldn't they? If you give them the right answers to the question of, How do I handle the new tax law?, what is it that matters? What matters isn't the name of your company, maybe the logo, but really is it? Do you have an answer to my question? And if you do, then you must be trustworthy and I may belong to you.
So the buyer, you're right, they haven't evolved that much. It's just the tools that we use to get there. It is interesting. We did say something about social. At SAMC when we post something, we immediately go out (we're HubSpot partners) and we post it on all the social, and then we email it to all of our friends and family who are on our CRM. And we then follow up a week later with, In case you missed it." We're gonna talk a little bit about how to leverage social as opposed to depend on it. If you want to have content, and social doesn't give you much, it's a vehicle for talking to people. What are your thoughts?
Jann Mirchandani: I couldn't agree more. Clients often look at me, like, "Why?" I say, "Well, do you do social media? I can work with you on your social media, but I will not execute social media on your behalf." So they're like, "But you do digital marketing." I say, "Yeah, do you know social media is great if you have great content, but you have to have content. That's rented space."
I always tell clients, You know what: Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram...all of these channels. Tik Tok is the newest hot thing. They can change their algorithms. They can change their user agreements anytime without your permission, without your agreement. You have no say in it. They can take your content as soon as you upload it. It's there as if it no longer belongs to you. You're in a rented space there, as opposed to your website. You own that real estate. You can take your website and you can move it from one hosting platform to another. I've done it plenty of times with clients. And they're like, "What is set up over here, it's not meeting our needs anymore." We take it and it will live somewhere else. Your domain you own means that you can move it forward from one registrar to another. And all of that is as you make those decisions for your business, your organization.
So it's really important to understand that difference between what you really control versus what somebody else controls for your organization. This is not to say that it doesn't have any meaning because again, we all go to networking events. Say I haven't seen someone for a while, I should reach out. Those platforms have their uses, certainly LinkedIn, especially to stay in touch with colleagues as they move from one job to the next and you might not necessarily have their home phone number. So it is important, but it is also important to understand what the value is where one is a tool for networking and the other one is a tool for really having that conversation with your clients, in terms of your prospective clients, in terms of, This is really our expertise. You shouldn't be selling on social media but on your website, it's perfectly appropriate to be a little bit more sales that you really don't want to do on social media. So again, what are the tools and why are you using them?
Andi Simon: It is interesting as I'm listening to you because the world of LinkedIn is a science all unto itself, and Instagram as well. But 65-70% of the traffic to our website comes from organic. And Twitter is much more effective as a generator of leads to our website then the others are. I mean, I can see it in the data. You have to feed the ones that feed you. And you play with the others to be present. But forget whoever is listening, what is your strategy? And what are you offering? And to whom? And what do you know about what's working, because it's all in the data. And if you're not watching your Google Analytics, you don't see where the sources are, you're missing what the world is giving you, which is a platform to know how to build your business organically on the internet.
Now, for those who aren't up on a good website yet, I urge you to talk to a Jann or someone like Jann, because you're missing the way the world is buying. The first thing people do if they're curious about something is, they search. And if you don't come up on the first couple of pages, you don't exist. And unless someone's referring them to you, you got a lot of work to build a market in a changing buyer's journey now, but we are about ready to wrap ourselves up. So Miss Jann, what are two or three things you want to make sure our audience doesn't forget and leaves knowing about?
Jann Mirchandani: Well, the first thing is what I said right at the beginning. It's absolutely essential that you really get out of your own head and think about what your prospective clients are looking for. One thing that I always say to new clients is, Think about the 10 questions that you get most often when you start with a new project or a new client. They're telling you everything that you need to know about what any other prospective client is going to be asking you. Because that's the same question. So that's really the first thing that you want to do is, What are those prospective clients looking for?
Then in terms of overall presence and how you're presenting yourself online, it goes back to, we haven't really talked about branding, but the branding experience. Hopefully people have watched and listened to us today and when they go to my website, that tracks with what I saw on Andi's podcast. Then if they pick up the phone or send me an email, that experience should be the same as well. Back in the day, when I first started, it was like, Oh, I have to be very buttoned up and I have to be very professional. I kind of subjugated my own personality to a large extent and over time, I'm like, you know what, that's hard to sustain over time. So, let that personality show because in many, many instances, that is going to be your sales differentiator. So I think that's important also.
Don't set your website and forget it and say, Okay, we just dusted it off, and we just did a new website and now we're done for another five years. You shouldn't be really taking a look at it regularly. You should be adding articles regularly. I have the same issue that every one of my clients have on my blog. But again, go back to what you have and bring in guest bloggers, but definitely make sure that you are paying attention regularly to your website to add new content so those questions that your prospective clients are asking you, or you know what your clients are asking you. So that's sort of it in a nutshell.
Andi Simon: I'm going to have Jann tell you where you can reach her. But one of the things that I do just as a tip is that we like to post three times a week. We like to post on our list of longtail keywords, and make sure the URL and the subheads are all the right ones for people searching for that. So there's a little science to how to do those. But after awhile, you're building on the story so that the blogs that we put up two or three years ago have set the stage for what we're adding onto currently. And sometimes I look back and forward and say, It really has grown into a storybook. That's what you are, a storybook. And the story is like a movie set in your head in your next year. And think about the year in terms of content you want to share. You don't have to be long, 800 words, three paragraphs, and the right keywords get you content so the search engines know you're the expert in that particular field. But don't wait. Because if you wait five years, you're a worthless website.
Jann Mirchandani: Months, honestly, I mean, six months. Everything else is now and I'll add a little bonus that you just reminded me of: Is it okay to go back to an article or a post that you wrote three years ago, a year ago? Things change. So dust that off, rewrite. Depending on how much you've changed the original article, you can either update the date on it, or just leave it with a little note that you updated it so that you're not always having to craft new content, you really can go back to what you have. It might be interesting for your readers to see originally, back in 2011, Jann said these were her favorite tools. And she's added three new ones since then and that's kind of interesting how the technology has changed. So I mean, you can certainly do that to update what you've already got.
Andi Simon: And when you get launching that new website, don't forget to tell everybody on your email list. They are a rich source for, "Hi, we've just updated our website and we can't wait for you to read the new articles on there. Or let us know what you need."
Jann Mirchandani: I haven't even touched on email. Email is a great way to share your content from your website to your audience, and that drives traffic back to your website. We're talking about SEO, all of that traffic that you're generating through the people that you're already connected with, is a great source for SEO as well.
Andi Simon: Jann, where can people reach you?
Jann Mirchandani: I can be reached at Westchestermarketingcafe.com That's the easiest way. You can fill out the online form there. Or you can reach me directly at Jann@Westchestermarketing cafe.com Or give me a call 914-806-7720 and I'd be happy to chat.
Andi Simon: And she's a happy chatter and she does beautiful work. It's a pleasure to see you today. Thank you for joining me. Now, for all of our listeners and our audience who are watching, I can't tell you what fun it is to share great people with you. And as you know, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways, which is just what we've done today with Jann. But don't underestimate the power of the internet, your website, and the kinds of ways it tells a story. We're all story makers and storytellers. And that's what's so powerful today. You have a platform, and nobody's controlling you, so tell that story in a great fashion. And keep telling it over and over so that you can rise in those rankings because they matter.
I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. My two books are out there at Amazon waiting for you. It's so much fun. I did a book club the other day on Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. And these were really wonderful high-powered women in the commercial real estate world. And I was fascinated about how they had read the book and how it had touched them differently than I might have thought. And that's always so interesting when you read a book because you put your story into it. And they were all wanting to know how could their stories be like these stories? So I urge you to read it and get a hold of me if you want me to talk at your book club or your organization. I'd love to share both the origin myth of this book,Rethink, as well as the women who are inside it who were so gracious to share their stories like Jann has done today. It's been such fun. But take care. Remember, find me at info@Andisimon.com and we're always here to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Change your organization or change yourself. It's been wonderful, thanks again.
Hear how to be bolder and braver at balancing your life
Suppose you are a working woman with children. I bet you have experienced the "Balance Dilemma." How can you find the right balance between home life, family, a business or professional career, and even your own self-care? You, your partner or spouse, your friends and your family will enjoy this podcast. My guests, Maura Carlin and Christie Derrico, have an awesome podcast called The Balance Dilemma. Yes, the title is exactly what we want to share with our audience today. Need some help balancing all the different parts of your life? Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
How to help women and men have families, careers, and a life to live
A little background: Maura and Christie are both attorneys. Maura describes herself as: “Litigation attorney turned journalist, writer, podcaster, still asking questions.” Christie is an entrepreneur, lawyer, podcaster and author who combines her multi-disciplinary talents with her passion for giving back.
Making work life and home life successfully coexist together shouldn't be so hard, but as most of us know, it is. Even after decades of women trying to balance their lives and their careers, very little has changed. Sadly, we're still trying to figure it out.
Questions the three of us delved into which affect all of us
When we consider the declining birth rate, the later ages at which women are getting married and the limitations of childcare, as well as its cost, we as a society must step back and rethink, What we are doing? What do we value? How do we provide a more balanced life, and why is it even more essential to do it now?
Listen in and enjoy. And please share with us your ideas at info@simonassociates.net.
To contact Maura and Christie
You can connect with Maura on LinkedIn or email her at mauracarlin@gmail.com. You can find Christie on LinkedIn.
Want a deeper dive into how you can achieve work-life balance? Start with these:
- Podcast: "Work PAUSE Thrive" with Lisen Stromberg
- Podcast: Melissa Greenwell—Gender-Balanced Leadership Doesn’t Just Happen
- Blog: Rising To The Occasion, Women Are Proving To Be The Heroines In This Crisis
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. We've moved into our 300+ podcast and it truly is an honor to celebrate with you. Every time we have a new one, we get lots of people across the globe coming to us asking for more. How do I get you off the brink? How do I help you soar? Well, I do that by letting you listen to people who are doing just that. They help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can add some tools into your portfolio. The world is going through a great transformation.
So today, I bring you two amazing women. I have Maura Carlin and Christie Dericco. I met them through a mutual friend who then introduced me and I was absolutely honored to be on their podcast, The Balance Dilemma. This was a terrific in-person WVOX recording of a podcast. And today we're going to talk a little bit about podcasting. Actually a lot about podcasting, because I do them with great pleasure. I haven't monetized it. I don't want to, I don't want have advertisers. I just want great people to help you see, feel and think in new ways.
So today, let me tell you a little bit about these two wonderful women. And then they'll tell you about their own journey. But listen carefully to their own experiences. There's something there for you, each of you, to begin to understand how in our life's journey, we continue to soar only if we get off the brink. So here we go.
I have Maura Carlin here, who spent over 15 years as a litigator at law firms. Now remember, I could have been an attorney or an anthropologist. But it was my husband who said to me, "Be an anthropologist and I'll be here for you," and he doesn't mind my telling you that because it was 55 years ago and I am still an anthropologist. But she started as a litigator while raising her family and left law and focused on journalism, working as a producer and host on LMC media's news programming. So this is an interesting blend here. Her natural talent and live on-air interviews was on display weekly during roundtable discussions with elected officials, newsmakers and more. She received a BA from Cornell and a JD with honors from George Washington. But she is really on another part of her own journey.
Now Christie Derrico grew up in a world encouraged by female entrepreneurs and she and I love to share stories about those female entrepreneurs. I often thought I should write a book called What I Learned On My Grandmother's Knee because it was my grandmother who taught me all about how to count money at the end of the day. It was so interesting, beginning with Christie's grandmother and continuing to her mother, a tech entrepreneur. She established her law practice in 1998 and tailored her firm to meet her community and family needs. She lives in Westchester.
Maura has three sons, and Christie has four children. They are truly the epitome of "the balance dilemma." Thank you for joining me today. I'll start with Christie. What's your journey? And then I'll get to Maura and then we'll go deep into what has podcasting taught us and what we're trying to do with it. Christie, how about yourself?
Christie Derrico: Well, Andi, like many people, I was inspired by reading To Kill a Mockingbird. I knew that I wanted to be a lawyer from freshman year of high school when that is usually assigned. And I went right from college to law school, and I was a college athlete. And then I went to compete in law school. As you know, more than I can attest, law school is not an easy feat. Each level you go up in your education, it's harder and harder. But I have loved being an attorney. And I've handled litigation, handling many cases, criminal and civil. And I also established a local practice where I got to connect with people in the community. And that's one of my favorite things.
I'm not very good at tracking my pro bono hours because there are just so many of them. If someone walks in with a problem, I'm there to help even if sometimes they can't pay what would be the customary rate. So I met Maura on a show a few years ago. And we just struck up a friendship and started a conversation that became The Balance Dilemma and it had a launch in this pandemic where many people had an opportunity to pivot and try new things. And that's our story.
Andi Simon: What I love about it, you must know Adam Grant's book, Give and Take. Givers just really are essential to the beauty and joy of our society. And as you said about your pro bono, givers, you know, it's sort of like, How can I help? As opposed to, How can you pay me? And that is a real mark of a woman I want to have on my podcast. Maura, what about you?
Maura Carlin: You know, it's funny, I hadn't even realized how similar Christie and I were in those beginning years because I too wanted to be a lawyer after reading To Kill a Mockingbird in eighth or ninth grade. And I did not come from a family of lawyers or business people, for that matter. My father was an artist. And my mother was a teacher, and both grew up poor. And I didn't want to do what they did. And I wanted to be a lawyer. So I went to college. I too, was a college athlete for a couple of years, and went straight to law school also. And during law school, I really didn't know much about the practice of law as it turned out, and ended up going to a big firm in New York City, and started my law career that way.
And then along the way, like two intense career couples with children, couldn't really make it work very well. And there were things going on at home. And I went home thinking it was temporary. And we then actually had a third kid, and I got involved in local journalism, which is something I had always been interested in. I did radio in college, and I really pursued that while I was home. I needed flexibility, I needed to be around. So there we have it. And Christie and I met on the set of this new show, which was a combination of news and a discussion roundtable. And we hit it off right away talking about the struggle.
Andi Simon: The struggle has accelerated during the pandemic. It was there before, people talked about work-life balance, and I used to say, Why is work not life? I couldn't quite figure out what this balance was that we were trying to get. But it was always about women in that work-life balance. And it is an interesting time for us to take a look at how women have creatively solved an unexpected challenge. And now we're trying to figure out how the next challenge is going to put more strain or opportunities for creative ideas to come forth, as people are being asked to come back to the workplace.
And I'm hearing this constant recurring theme: Well, you knew before the pandemic, to work at home was a gift you gave me. It was part of my benefits. During the pandemic, you gave me a day to figure out how to do it. And now you want me to come back to the office. And some folks are going back in the office and sitting on zoom in the office because their colleagues are still removed. We haven't figured this out. So go ahead.
Christie Derrico: So Maura and I, the three of us, have used the same word: flexibility. So adding to my bio, I had a formula for flexibility from having a mother and a grandmother who were working mothers. And I learned things, and things have been tweaked through the generations. I have my mother's sisters who still run the family business and they have children. And so I had a benefit of things that many women don't: I have rules. I try to keep things hyperlocal like Maura. I'm very involved in the community. So if something falls apart, you're a known entity and somebody can swoop in and drive your kid home or something like that. But what really brought Maura and I together was an article that was at that time, 30 years old: Confessions of a Superwoman. Maura why don't you tell Andi about how this spawned our project?
Maura Carlin: This is actually a funny story. Your parents dump everything in your attic when you have a house to get you out of theirs. So at that time I was finally hitting the boxes and I found this article from December 1980. I don't know where or how I got it, but I clearly didn't read it. And this woman was trying to do it. And this was what really hit me. She was trying to have this high flying career and she was a prominent scientist. And she had a child and she couldn't make it work. And what really struck me and what Christie and I talked about 30 years later, was very little had changed, and even more so, we were speaking about it in the same terms and that was just unbelievable and kind of horrifying at the same time.
Christie Derrico: And I will just add to that, that in the pandemic, even leading up to it, progress has been with fits and starts. And we've seen in our community, I think there are less day cares here than when I moved here in the late 90s. Why is that? And how can we move forward unless we address the elephant in the room—childcare—and other issues that help women stay in the workforce. And our project, The Balance Dilemma, has been a super interesting social science, so to speak, analysis of all the machinations of this work-life balance. What has been most interesting to me is that our guests have been entrepreneurs, re-inventors, creators, executives, parents, partners. We have had fine artists, other types of artists, writers, all people telling the story, not just women. There are men too of how they have made a life for their families and themselves and keeping their identity and making livings and things like that. It's been absolutely fascinating.
Andi Simon: I'm curious, maybe you can provide perspective on this. How do we make changes, because to your point, there's less childcare, there are fewer childcare workers. I didn't have childcare, I had to hire a nanny. I remember my husband and I navigating the complex waters of who was going to work on which days, and I worked Wednesdays and Saturdays at the university, so he could take care of the kids on Saturdays. There was always navigating. But on the other hand, we never really thought back and said, What did we do here? This was sort of just how we got it done. But how do we make the changes that are going to be necessary to create something we're calling a work-life balance or something? I'm not quite sure that vision of what we're going toward, and I'm not sure how to help us get there.
Maura Carlin: I think we need to figure out the childcare piece of it, as Christie was saying. Someone has to be there at some time, whether it's a parent, or another family member, or someone you hire. I don't see another solution. But it's something that keeps getting ignored. And one of the things on the balance limb is, interestingly, we don't talk politics, but this is the one policy area where we kind of have to go into it and see how different people have handled it. And it always seems, and this is where my husband and I actually had a problem because it comes back to this: someone seems to have some flexibility. You know, even our last guest, who was the lead parent, she from the very beginning was able to work from home long before work from home was a thing. And that allowed her to be around for the children. She also hired someone that you could delegate to, but she had the flexibility. And I don't know how you do it otherwise. Why are children the afterthought instead of the thought in our society? Christie, do you have perspective?
Christie Derrico: Absolutely, I mean, we've had some common links with Frank Schaeffer. I found his book, Fall in Love, Have Children, Stay Put, Save the Planet, Be Happy. It's a big, big, long title. But I found some of the things, I'm not saying Frank and I agreed on everything, but it was refreshing that he was discussing it and putting it out there. And we were discussing just this weekend with my mother when she was finishing her college degree and she was at community college, there was a childcare facility. And I remember being there. That didn't mean I was there 7-to-7, but in the time that she had to take some classes, I could go there. I wonder how many colleges have childcare facilities these days? I don't think many. And it has made it an afterthought. But childcare is just one component of it.
The thing that Maura and I have touched upon is planning. Young people, young women, young men, don't often think about, How do I want my life to look 20 years from now? They kind of spontaneously go into things that they like without really thinking, Oh, wait, is this going to be the career that gives me the best work-life balance? And Maura and I were not fond of the book...what was the name of it, Maura? It had a Wall Street exec in London and it was so depressing that she would come home at night and couldn't stand to see her husband. She would buy store-bought pies and distress them to bring them into school for the school play. Like it was such a Debbie Downer of a working woman. I couldn't stand to read the book, not that it wasn't well written or entertaining, it just hit a nerve with me.
So how can we make this, as you say, something that there is some forethought, or there is some flexibility. I think the change in the marketplace in the economy is allowing people in general to change careers easier. You're not staying in one place. So we have to be open to, Maybe I'm going to shift to this, maybe I won't earn as much money, but I'm in it. And maybe I need to be there for four years, and then it could shift again. So hopefully these changes that were coming out of this pandemic can facilitate that flexibility that did not used to exist. I also think that the flexibility is coming from employers. If you ask for it, because of the pandemic, allowing people to work from home or understanding that people do have other people to watch over. And it's not just children, it's their elderly, elderly families as well, which is also huge.
Andi Simon: Let's think big. Frank Schaeffer was on the podcast and I loved his ideas. And I said, So why is it so hard for employers to realize that if they opened up a child-friendly culture, they could attract people who would not only come and want to come and stay, but see them aligned with their own values? Is that such a foreign idea? As we're talking about it, and he and I talked about it, I said, Frank, this isn't so hard, just open up the gap. My daughter worked for The Gap. The Gap had a daycare where you can bring them in at three months. And they did it. So why is this such a mystery? And why do they fight it? Well, you don't have to go into politics and figure out why society and government doesn't. But how many businesses could do it tomorrow?
Christie Derrico: Well, I think we have to look at successful examples. So we're lawyers, and Maura and I love to research. So I am a fact-, evidence-based person. So we can have a theory and it sounds great, but if I can't find the data to support that, even if it's a good formula, I'm not going to be behind it. And I won't bore you, Maura knows, I've gone down the rabbit hole of some of these issues. And we have a running Google document with our research that I find absolutely fascinating on the issues of family and work. But we have to do things here that have been proven to be successful.
The evidence just shows that if you have flexibility, women do stay in the jobs longer. But we have to be in agreement that there's some professions that you just can't bring your kid to work. So maybe this is why I think it needs to be a broader societal solution. And another thing that we found is, it's a lot easier to achieve flexibility when you're at the top of your game. If you're having to do this at the beginning of your career, before you've had the chance to do internships and put in long hours and prove yourself, it is a lot harder. So these are the discussions that we have to have and stop kicking the can down the road.
Andi Simon: Well, is that why the birth rate in this country is declining and declining at a very high rate and marriage rate is declining. And people aren't getting married till they're older. They are having kids at high risk levels and 40% of the kids are born to single parents and not to the guys. And so now you have an interesting demographic. Now, it's telling us something to your point, How can we not plan ahead? Well, we are planning ahead, sort of, which is, I'm not going to get married, we live together, I've done my savings. I think that the generation that's coming is so different from the Boomers and even different from Gen X and Gen Y somewhat. But they see this and they're beginning to talk about the changes they can bring. And I'm hoping that they can visualize something that addresses the balance dilemma.
Christie Derrico: We have discussed this quite a bit. Our oldest children are the same age and they're in a similar line of work. But we can't answer whether these are for social scientists to study but I was curious. I did read the book. It's a dialogue with the Boomer and the Millennial. And it did open my eyes to see some of the reasons why some of the things you are talking about exist. We can't sit there and say, Well, back in my day we did it this way.
There's a reason they feel insecurity. They went through some national crises, the 2008 meltdown, 911. These are part of the reasons that they feel they need huge security before they go on to that next step, aside from the socio expectations and living together and things like that. So I think that we have to look at them, address them, and try to give support, otherwise this is going to keep trending and we're not alone. All developed countries have low birth rates, but some have been more successful than others. And I think when we say fact- or evidence-based, that's what we need to look at: How do they do it in the countries where it's worked? And how can we have takeaways from those examples?
Maura Carlin: Well, I actually don't 100% agree with Christie in terms of the age groups just because looking at them, I don't think that our older children fall into that. And it may be because I think they're considered young millennials, as opposed to the older millennials. So at least for my son, I don't think he was affected by those things the way some of the older ones were. I also think what they've seen is, how hard it is. I don't think it's just because of external things like crashes and, you know, real big crises, like 911. I think that they've seen their parents trying to figure out how to do this. And my eldest was keenly aware of the decision that I made, that someone needed to be there. And there, they haven't seen a solution.
Andi Simon: Let me shift the focus aspect. Men. I’m married to a fantastic guy who went into his own business. When I was an executive at a bank, and I'm traveling up to Buffalo, and he's taking care of the kids, not that he's not employed, working and building his own business. But without Mr. Mom, it would have been more challenging. And we always had nannies, but they weren't the same. My kids' relationship to Mr. Mom is fantastic. And I think that's because he did become like a mom. And he was the guy who made sure they had a driver to pick them up and take them. And he was the one who picked them up and took them out for dinner. And we made it work. And they are both professional women doing the same.
How are the men handling the roles they play? Are they shifting? Are they reinventing what masculine means? Are they good at staying at home? Moms: I had some executive coaching clients where the guys were sitting on the couch, and the kids were crying, and they were on the phone with me, on Zoom. And they said, How do I deal with this certain child who's a husband and two children who are children?
Christie Derrico: We’ve had two guests, and we've had a number of men, but we've had two guests, for sure, men who did that. One in particular. And he really was. He liked to be called Mr. Dad, as he told us. His wife is a very prominent orthopedic surgeon, and he took over the homefront. And that was in fact the title of our episode. It was a choice he made, he was a lawyer also. And he was happy with having done that. And the kids grew up, they're happy. And they probably do, according to him, give a hard time to mom sometimes for that. Another one was a teacher, a journalist, who flew all over the world, and was never around. And ultimately decided that he would step back from that and take things that kept him around more. So I mean, they are starting to make those kinds of decisions.
But what it's showing us is not that two people can have these high-flying careers at the same time, but rather that somebody has to step back, and it almost doesn't matter who it is. Someone has to step back. Go ahead, step back at home. So the other guest we had was a teacher. And he gave us an insight on paternity leave. And what he told us, one question we had had was when men take paternity leave, what are the stats? Are they home while the wives are home just giving a hand or they really, you know, coming in and staying home with the child alone, because obviously that's a big difference. And Steph explained, as did another guest of ours, a female guest, that they staggered the paternity leave so that someone who was a family member could be home with a newborn, and they could stretch out the time before they needed to hire a caregiver or bring them to a daycare.
This is where analysis is important to understand how these families are cobbling it together. But as I'm hearing it, Andi, your perspective, you know, your voice here is men and how they're handling the situation. Women, we have found, also do something called gatekeeping. They're used to running the house, they say how the laundry is folded, dinner, what's prepared. We have to let go of some of those, our anal habits, and I'm speaking for myself, and just allow someone else. My husband did the shopping yesterday. I have to stop thinking in my head, all the things he forgot, or all the things that he bought that I don't like or don't usually buy. It's okay. And if he decides to make a meal during the week, I've got to eat it. I'm sure it's gonna be healthy. And I can't be the gatekeeper, which will be which penalizes me at the end of the day, if I can't delegate, if I can't accept that my children put their laundry away 60% perfect and some clean stuff goes back in the laundry bin or whatever they do, or dirty into the drawers. It's okay. And that's part of this discussion that we have to take up, maybe a little less perfect because we will be liberated if we can do that. Now we're gonna start sharing.
Andi Simon: Your evidence is also grounded in a history where when the men came back from the war, the women who were doing just fine working were put back into their home. And welcome to the suburbs where they had their home. And I've met men who have wanted to sell the home, only to find out that it was a castle that the woman had controlled and built, and she was not going to sell that home. He thought it was a house. And she said, I'm not selling this, I built it. It was her career in a complementary fashion. Their identity is connected to their job, which was to care for the home.
And I met another woman whose husband was an accountant, and she had dinner for him every night, the same time, when he came home. I'm going to think of it as theater, they knew those roles really well. They could play them in a heartbeat. Could they change roles and play a new one? Oh, it was terrifying. The thought of, How will I do this? So there's so much complexity into something that on the tip of our tongue says, But of course you can. And I'm not sure it's that easy.
Maura Carlin: Something I don't think we talk about enough is the work demands and how they've changed over the generations. No jobs or few jobs are nine to five anymore, or even less than that. And I'll just tell you that my mother was a teacher, she was still home in the afternoon. My father, while he wasn't a businessman, actually negotiated for shorter hours and did freelance on the side. And he was home on Fridays. But even when he worked full time in the city, it wasn't the same kind of hours that we are expected to work now. And you know, that makes it harder. For one, to deal with the children, but it's harder to get childcare for those who want to work 9-7 or 7-9. So that's another piece that I don't think we talk about enough.
Christie Derrico: I'm sorry, the entrepreneurial solution. That's, I don't advocate any 9-9. No. And believe me, I work hard. But a lot of my work and my husband's work, we do bring it home. What I was going to say, before we did mention Confessions of a Superwoman. But another great article is, Why I Want a Wife, which I had to write an essay on in high school. One of my teachers had me write an essay and it has nothing to do with, you know, partners, sexual partners. It's a support system. And this hidden workload.
Running a house is laborious if you are cleaning in COVID. So many people couldn't have their cleaning help come in and they realized, this is really tough work. And there's a lot more I think that can go into parenting than just, you know, the ministerial making the sausage, as they call it. I mean, there are issues that come up with children, or at least in some families, that can't be addressed by other people.
Andi Simon: Yep, they need their parents. Now that leads to the role of parents. Because, you know, we started the conversation: Has our society put on the side burner the child? And it worries me because rather than the child being the foremost most important thing that we should be working for, that we should be developing society around, it's almost a sidebar, and as Frank was discovering by taking care of his grandchild, this is exciting. It's wonderful. It's exhilarating. Why are we all built around our children? So as you're doing your research, why aren't we all built around the children? What is it in our American society where children are hard, both wonderful, but also challenging. How do we get our values on that stuff?
Christie Derrico: The word helicoptering has come up. And in the course of our research, the UN study on birth rates has found that over-parenting has contributed to the lower birth rates, the expectations, and truthfully, I think children are less independent. The days of "just be home at six" are gone. They're very orchestrated with lots of activities. And a lot of parents' involvement is required driving. Even if you hire someone to drive, you have to be careful that it has to be somebody who's very skilled with your precious cargo. But that is a part of this discussion. And now we found again, with the pandemic, with the schools closed, a huge bulk of the support system that parents had disappeared overnight. And not only did you have them home, you are expected to do their schooling in front of a computer.
But I will say that from the guests we've spoken to and our personal experiences, I actually don't think people have put the parenting on the backburner. I think that they're expecting to do it all. And they're expecting to do parenting at a much higher level than at least my parents did. Some of it's from society, and some of it is internal. Yeah, and some of it is the kids.
Andi Simon: You're raising some interesting questions about society because I remember that I was pretty free and I had a bike, and I could ride my bike after school over to Lord and Taylor's and I had my own allowance. I could spend it however, I didn't have to explain much of anything. We went outside onto the street and played kickball, whoever was around. I still know my next-door neighbor. And Bobby and I laugh sometimes how free we were to be, and to learn through that becoming.
But today, everything is different. And if you don't have them in lacrosse, and then soccer and then rugby, then they hang around with nothing to do because nobody's outside hanging out playing kickball. So you're caught between the two. So let's assume that's just going to be our society for a while. As you look forward to coming out of the pandemic, any thoughts for the women who are willing to look for that balance dilemma and somehow address it in some fashion because the businesses are full of a balance dilemma.
Maura Carlin: I think it's going to have to be flexible. And it's going to have to be flexibility coming from the employers. The problem that I see, and I think about this all the time is, it's one thing to be flexible. But if the workload doesn't change, it's very hard. And I'm not talking about those who allow the workload to fill as many hours as you have. But there are things that just can't be flexible. I tried it at one point. After having kids, if the judge needed me to be in court, I had to be in court. And it really didn't matter whether it wasn't my day, or I had a parent-teacher conference. So, you know, there’s a society piece in control. And those are two good insights.
Christie Derrico: Well, I have managed to make my career flexible. And I have been before judges and I can remember a couple of tough experiences. I did have one story. My husband cut his finger one morning, and all I had was a Mickey Mouse or princess Band-Aid. And I said, "This is it. You're gonna have to go to court with this." So he puts it on and he goes, "This is great. The jury is gonna love this. They'll know I'm a dad." And I walked out and I said, "Ah, if I had walked in with the Mickey Mouse Band-Aid, I think that they would have thought, She's a terrible mom. She can't even get a Band-Aid. See the symbolism? Isn't it the same Band-Aid?
In any event, this comes back to the issue of change. You know, when deciding careers and which position, the thing that we have addressed on our show are pivots, divots, pitfalls, curveballs...they happen, and how do you handle it. Or if you did decide to stay home for 10 years for great reasons, we have to stop thinking of parenting as pure drudgery. It's the most wonderful time and you only get that one chance. So if you decide to stay home, what happens? It takes a lot of courage.
And we have featured many guests who have done return-ships. One woman was like a 40-year-old intern. And we didn't get to address this in one of our recent shows, but it was on my mind. She said that she felt that her managers could turn to her and talk about business problems because she was the only adult in the room, or, you know, a senior adult, not somebody who was 22 years old and didn't even know where to put the stamp on an envelope. So there are aspects, and now we can look at different careers, see where we might fit in best and aim for that. It probably takes us a couple years to reenter. But looking at these pivots, I think you have to just build yourself up and do it.
Andi Simon: It's interesting listening to you because I hope those who are listening to us begin to think to themselves, How do we begin to change our attitudes or values, our minds? I did a workshop for the Petroleum Association in Pennsylvania in June last year, and they're all struggling without drivers. I said, Have you thought of hiring women? And they looked at me. I said, Well, listen, what is wrong with having drivers from 10-3? And let them do it when they drop the kids off at the schoolbus and pick them up after? And they looked at me. I said, You're short, you know, you have a challenge. And how can you then compliment them differently? How do you start to think about it from the eyes of what's possible? Because they're all sitting there waiting for jobs. And you simply say, Well, that's not our job. Why?
Christie Derrico: These are the discussions we need to have because benefits are tied to employment. So if you have an employee, and they have a benefits package, it's harder to rationalize what is part time. Does a person want to take that on and have no benefits? So those are the solutions and the discussions we need to have. So we can have people that just can't commit to 40 hours a week, or 38-42 hours a week. And there are places for them. The biggest thing though when you return to the workforce is your family and getting them to adapt to loading the dishwasher, doing their own laundry, picking up a night to cook something. This is part of the cooperation.
Andi Simon: You know, as a conductor of the family orchestra, everyone had an instrument to play. And if you conducted it well, they enjoyed it, it was an opportunity to shine as opposed to a penalty box because they were trialed. We can talk about how I trained my family, because part of it was to give them the confidence that they could have the opportunity to learn the training, and not to do and to be them. I was the enabler, the facilitator, the lover, the hugger, but not the "I'll take charge, you really messed it up" person. And that requires maturity on our part, to see this as a conductor might, where they aren't all playing their instruments yet, but nobody's trained them to play them. And so the metaphor that works for me might be something to share as you're thinking about them.
I do have two thoughts to talk about. What is self-care? We have a 30-day challenge, actually a 60-day challenge, for a group of women presidents down in Nashville, it's going on now. And it's called Time to Take Care of You. And they're all stressed out. But the research is extraordinary that self-care can reduce stress. And what's happened is that for many successful women, they think it's guilty to take care of themselves. What does that mean, anything from having a cup of coffee on their porch, to working out, to setting aside time on their calendar for quiet time, a quiet walk, to go and have a hobby that they can do and how to program it so that it's part of their day.
What are you seeing in terms of self-care, because this is our third and I'm going to be doing these as often as I can because everyone who gets into them doesn't want it to stop. Taking care of themselves is something to overcome, called guilt. And then when they do it, they go, "Oh, this makes me feel like I'm valued. I'm worth something." What do you see? Maura, do you want to start?
Maura Carlin: Well, I mean, personally, I'm one of those people who needs to exercise. I need to move. Not everyone feels that way. I think the problem is finding the time. It's very hard to set aside that time. And Christie and I do talk about that you need to have friends. If that's important to you, you need to get exercise for health reasons. But for some people, it's sort of like what energizes them. I think you need time to yourself. And I will tell you that I have started doing a gratitude compassion class that I'm failing at miserably. But that's okay. And the big part of it is being kind to yourself. Yes. And I think that's what we all need more of.
Andi Simon: Well, I find that the challenge is just fascinating. Because once they get into it, it takes a day or two or three, and then all of a sudden, they don't want to stop it. And it has a gratitude part at the end and the wall of wins with a high-fiving each other. Christie, do you find people with self-care as the afterthought also, because without it, you can't be happy?
Christie Derrico: Well, in the evolution of my family, my grandmother unfortunately passed away before she was 60. And I feel that she nearly worked herself to death. She did have an illness, but she was not good at the self-care aspect of it. And she had the biggest heart. And I think of her all the time in terms of the lessons as a business owner, and a mother. And my mother brought that to the table to say, You got to have sports, you have to have friends. So it's something that's been part of my life. I get up very early to do my exercise, which sometimes can be, you know, exhausting, but it's maybe you do it three days a week, and not five, you know, you find a way to accommodate it.
But in talking about pivots and trying new things, I went back to school, and I am almost halfway through a Masters in English. And I see our podcast as something that Maura and I did. That was a personal hobby that turned into something. We learned new things. And we had to make room for this. I mean, Maura edits the audio for our shows, I do the newsletter and the graphics. I can't even believe I've learned how to do that. I think it's really important to keep learning new things, especially with all the new technology. And it can be very frustrating. But I think actually keeping up with it is really important. From a mental standpoint, and to not feel like the world has passed.
Andi Simon: So we are about ready to wrap up. So if that is your first: the world doesn't pass you by, you must stay up on top. Do you have one or two other things more and then I'll let Christie do hers.
Maura Carlin: The thing that I keep telling myself that I wished I told myself earlier was to be bolder and be braver. And things that scare me, I have to go do them.
Andi Simon: I love that be bolder, be braver. I never thought of it that way. But you're right. To be brave I think is what we need to be because the times have always been tough. And somehow we all had families that mustered through them. And I think these are going to be exciting times to come out and be brave, be courageous. Christie, your last thoughts.
Christie Derrico: With the gratitude theme, sometimes we have to stop and reflect and really applaud ourselves about what we've achieved. Stop focusing on what we didn't do, the things that didn't turn out great. Never. You must love to have experienced love loss, like it's all part of it. And I think that Maura and I do a post mortem at the end of our season, and even sitting here today, I was thinking this weekend, how much we achieved on the goals we set for ourselves. And if some don't happen, that doesn't really matter. That's okay too. But it's important to take stock and be appreciative and compliment yourself that you've done a good job.
Andi Simon: You know, the brain research I love because it's, you know, being an anthropologist and looking at culture, that the brain, the human being, needs gratitude, appreciation. It needs to have those three things every day that you did well. And all of a sudden, the car is actually toasted and the rain goes flying around and that love hormone makes you feel warm and fuzzy. If you don't, the cortisol has a great time making you feel angry. Somebody said to me at a meeting, "I have a friend who's angry all the time. How do they change?" He said, "Just take control of your mind. There's nothing in your mind. That's anger. It's just the way you think. So now what's happening is you're happy." How do you turn lemons into lemonade because nobody can do it but us. And we can each do it so that we can then smile every morning.
So the first thing that my little 30-day challenge tells you to do is to wake in the morning and smile. And all of a sudden, the day looks very cool. Why not? It's perfect. This has been such fun. If they want to listen to The Balance Dilemma, or get a hold of you, where and how do they do that?
Christie Derrico: We are on the internet at thebalancedilemma.com where you can find old episodes. We have show notes and things recommended by our guests. We're also on social media at The Balance Dilemma podcast on Facebook and LinkedIn. And any place you listen to your podcasts, which could be Apple, iTunes, Google Spotify. The Balance Dilemma, you can find all the episodes and listen in. We appreciate it.
Andi Simon: You were bold and brave and courageous and true. And I loved having both of you here. So for my listeners, all of you have done a great job making us in the top 5% of global podcasts. I don't know how many podcasts there are, so I don't know what that actually means, other than it's fun to share. And we're in the top world 20’s futures podcast. So I'm a real fan of Futurism because the signals are coming to us every day. And today's podcast makes me remember that there are signals coming to us that the times are changing fast. We know that. But how can we do this in a way that will be stronger for our kids and their kids and create a real strong culture and society where children are in the forefront of what we're doing and how we're doing it? And that doesn't mean just popping them in the car and helicoptering them over to the next lacrosse game.
I mean, there's something broader here and even getting them to love to read and understand the joy of exploring ideas and staying on top of what's happening because they're going to lead us. These are great, great stories. You can reach me at info@andisimon.com. My books are on Amazon, Barnes & Noble: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights from which this whole podcast developed. And as we move into our post-300th podcast, I'm really happy to be sharing lots and lots of great stories. Thanks for coming. Have a great day. Stay well and enjoy the joy of living.
Learn how to face adversity, change your thoughts, and smile
Do you ever wish you could handle your emotions better? In difficult conversations at work or in life, do certain words or attitudes trigger negative reactions, maybe from years ago? We've all been there, which is why I'm so happy to bring to you today Paula Guilfoyle, an expert in change management, a transformational leader, and a wonderful lady. She will teach us all to PBS: pause, breathe, and smile. Another tip from Paula: when that voice in your head is trying to make you feel bad, just NBC: notice, bounce, and change. Sound simple? It is, and it isn't. Listen to our conversation and I guarantee that afterward, you will be more peaceful, more focused and more productive, at home and at work. Change is hard but you can do it! I know you can.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Paula and I talk about the challenges of changing a person, much less an entire organization.
Through her company, Claim Leadership, Paula focuses on helping companies, like Coca-Cola, and individuals in those companies manage their interpersonal relationships. Her proprietary tools improve productivity, engagement, teamwork and morale, as well as lower turnover and build a more positive culture. Paula and I both know how hard it is to get people to change, but it can happen!
To contact Paula
You can connect with Paula on LinkedIn and her website Claim Leadership, or email her at paula@claimleadership.com
Would you like to be more peaceful and also more productive? Start here.
- Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times!
- Podcast: Richard Sheridan—Joy in the Workplace
- Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon, and I'm your host and your guide. My job is to get you off the brink. And as you know, that's not always so easy. Change is painful. Sometimes we need new ideas, we need new tools, new ways to think about things. Your mind can be your best asset or it can really hold you back from trying the new. It likes the familiar and the habits. And it really is wonderful, but it does exactly what it thinks you want it to do.
Today, I bring to you Paula Guilfoyle and Paula is an expert on helping you manage your mind, and watch those triggers that really do things that take you to places you don't want to go. She's going to tell you about herself, but then she's got a whole program and a process that I think is well worth sharing so that you can expand your tools and begin to do what we want you to do which is see, feel and think in new ways so you can change. And change is painful. So we're going to make it easy for you today. Paula, thank you for joining me.
Paula Guilfoyle: I'm thrilled to be with you today, Andi, thanks so much for having me.
Andi Simon: Tell our listeners and our viewers who Paula is. Tell us about your journey. This story is great.
Paula Guilfoyle: Okay, so very quickly, I'm one of eight kids and I was actually born rich. The riches that I have claimed for myself are: one, I'm one of eight children, I'm the fifth in five years. Second: I have actually lost a brother 10 years ago, we had a very special brother, a special Olympian. The third richness I had was that, at age 13, I went on one of two family vacations. And on that family vacation, my dad passed on. And the fourth richness is my mom. My mom was a quadriplegic at the time of my dad passing.
So I mentioned those, I rarely bring those up at the end. But I mentioned those because they are my richness. They are absolutely those challenges that we all have, that we all face, that I will call just the blah, blah, blah, the story of your life. And if you keep this your story, if you tell people through that lens, I had so much against me versus I had all these things that happened for me that allowed me later to be blessed with and I don't say this tongue in cheek, have I got 12 years of treated depression. And not being a medical doctor, all I can tell you is, on reflection, I know and I understand that I chose to think in a particular way and couldn't find my way out of that way. Eventually, after spending about 15-20 years very successfully in corporate America, I decided that I had studied the mind and personal development enough that I wanted to pass that along to people to help them. So that's it.
Andi Simon: Well, pause for a second because let's just think about what you're sharing with the listeners. You're going to help them think about managing their minds. You were astute enough to realize that the mind was doing exactly what it thought you wanted it to do. And there were enough catalytic moments in your life that you shared with us for it not to necessarily be a simple, easy, happy, light one. Well, it's time to have learnings or things that were making you reflect on both the past and the future. And somehow you turn those all into a career with corporate and otherwise, that is helping other people do even better. A little bit about how you began to move forward in a new direction.
Paula Guilfoyle: Great question. I decided, as I mentioned, that it was just something that was important to me that I had to do something outside of corporate America, something where I can place my own mark on it. So I started speaking and I started learning how to speak through Toastmasters. I always loved public speaking and did some of that in my corporate life in sales and sales training and HR. And then just created some different opportunities. And one thing led to another where I created a model that I teach around and I spoke once in front of a great friend of mine who's a VP of HR and actress but she said, "That model Paula, that model was amazing." And I said, "What are you talking about? What models?" She said, "That casting you were talking about? That was really amazing." I said, "GAP is just an acronym for me to remember my speech," and then I was like, Okay, so it's a model.
The GAP model apparently is something well-known in finance. So I decided it had to be the GAP Formula. And a very simple GAP Formula is a way to get from where you are to where you want to be. And I started spreading this. So for example, the reason why I shared my story today was, I shared that story in a public venue where I was asked to speak for free as part of an event and someone from Coca-Cola was in the audience. And through my story, they connected with me. And because of that, Coke hired me for three years. And I mentioned that because we all are challenged and this is a way to get past some of those challenges.
So Andi, can I share one tool with your audience? So one of the most popular tools that I teach, and most of my tools are three steps, because we're lucky if we can remember three steps, right? Things taught in threes tend to be helpful for our brain to remember. So the acronym for this particular tool is PBS, as in Public Broadcast System, but this is your Private Broadcast System. This is three steps to get out of a situation when you were triggered. So Andi, ask me, what's the trigger?
Andi Simon: You know, for the listeners and the viewers, our audience, I think if you're going to think about triggers, you better help them understand what is a trigger. And how is it going to do something to, and who that's going to be? So help them understand that. I love the thought of what's causing you to react to something.
Paula Guilfoyle: So a trigger is anything that will cause you to change behavior. So a trigger could merely be your first thought of the day. Today can be a great day, or today's going to be a disastrous day, or this person is tough, or that meeting will be wonderful. So a trigger is anything that happens. The most challenging triggers are the ones that just put you into a tailspin. And you don't even know what happened. Those triggers usually include something that's embedded way, way in the past.
So I'll give you a couple examples of a trigger. For example, somebody at a meeting says, "I didn't like your idea," but maybe they're a little bit more forward than that. So use these three steps: PBS. You pause, because between stimulus and response is all your opportunity, as Stephen Covey said. You just pause for a little bit. You breathe to calm yourself down on a cellular level. That would be: pause, breathe and then you smile. So the person at the other end will either think, "Wow, did she hear me, understand that I was sort of not exactly complimentary of her idea?", or they might understand that the person who is smiling is actually in control of their behaviors. And if you want to shortcut this, simply smile, because that ignites your brain, as we know, to happy chemicals. And even if it's a cheshire cat, frozen smile, it will have that same positive result.
Andi Simon: But remember, humans are mimics, like monkeys. So when you smile, the person on the other end of the table is gonna have a hard time not smiling. That person may not even know why. But yeah, there clearly was some, whatever the intent was, came back with a smile. And that changes the whole dynamics of that interaction, but the interesting trigger response, fascinating. So PBS is pause, breathe and smile. And then what do you do?
Paula Guilfoyle: And then you have to substitute a different thought. You must substitute different thoughts so there's something going on here. And initially your thought may be, Well, now I'm really upset with Sarah. Now I'm really upset with Max," whoever triggered you, or you may not even realize what he may know. "I'm really upset and I don't know what's going on." You must get out of it. So there are a few ways to do that. One of the things that is most effective, believe it or not, is movement, right? The brain follows the body. So you get up and dance, or if you do something I call the musical walk.
So I'll teach your audience the musical walk really quickly. This is something you can do anywhere. When I'm on stage, I'll say, "Snap with me." Have you ever been to a musical? Have you ever noticed in a musical, they can't walk normally. A little bounce, little swing. Can you imagine walking down the hallway at home or at work, snapping your fingers and dancing a little bit and feeling badly. It's almost impossible because your brain picks up those body movements.
I remember a person at Coke, he would always snap as he walked down the hallways, and it wasn't the musical walk, it was just who he was. He was trying to ignite that happiness. So you must alternate that negative feeling because you will feel badly with a bad thought. So you must change that up. And either have a phrase that you say to yourself: "Hey, I'm okay. This is alright. I can handle this. I can get out of this. Today's going to be a good day." You have to think of something that's going to shift your thinking or get into some activity. Get up, walk around the building. I'll say to people, Pick up your cell phone and talk yourself out of it. Yep, so you're talking to a friend. So just some ideas.
Andi Simon: Because without those tools, things happen. We don't quite know what to do. I don't remember anyone in elementary school or high school ever teaching me, I'll call them survival strategies. You remember being in business and being the only woman very often, right? I was in a management team at a bank, and I was the only woman in that management team. It was a lonely place. And I wasn't quite sure if what the guys were saying was the way I was hearing it. It was hard to always interpret intention. But if I didn't have a way of coping with it, I would smile, a long time ago. And I also remember a little technique that someone taught me, say to somebody, "It sounds like what you mean is..." and keep it in their zone, out of yours. Because remember, we decide with the heart and the eyes and the gut. And if we don't feel like it's the right thing, we better have some tools to help manage those emotions. I also learned a long time ago, never do anything when you're hungry, angry, lonely or tired: HALT. Because the emotions take over. And you need a click, a long walk down to break up, we can then manage our emotions and manage our thinking and manage feelings.
Paula Guilfoyle: That's really it. I have a little thing called: her life gets a cup of tea. So if you take those letters T A, and stack them one on top of the other, your thinking creates your emotions or your energy and then that creates your action. And if you want to write, if you want to add one more letter, you can tear into your life, and that creates your results. So it's your thinking. You have a good thought in the morning. And then you have great emotions or energy. Your thinking causes how you feel, your emotions, and then that causes how you're going to act. And then that will cause your results. That's your whole life is a cup of tea, or you can tear into your life, as I call it, as well. So you're absolutely on target as usual Andi with that explanation.
People need to understand that there's so many things going on in your environment. And one of the things that I really caution my clients about are things like the news, social media. Things that could easily take you off track, do not tune in. And there's also the naysayer in the group. Do your best to divert the conversation somewhere else to move along.
And so I'll give you one other quick tool when that thought comes in your mind, and that thought is just, Wow this can be bad data. You can pause, breathe and smile, or you could NBC. You could notice the thought, bounce the thought, and change the thought. I love NBC. So notice that thought, bounce that thought, and change that thought to anything that makes you feel even a little better. Because as we know, you are a person of emotions. As you heard earlier, your person is made up of emotion. So to think that I, for example, when I was depressed, I was going to go to joy. I feel so joyful...not likely. But if you can feel a little bit better, and believe it or not, people who are depressed, when they get angry, actually, it's a move up. So what would be just a little bit more positive? I can handle this. I think this could turn out right. It's possible, this could work for me. Some sort of wording like, It's okay, I can handle this.
Andi Simon: You know, someone said this to me: "You sound like your cup isn’t half full, it's overflowing."
Paula Guilfoyle: Well, I believe, as I imagine you do, Andi, is that we have to work on this, every day. So what are some of the practices you use to keep as positive and focused as you are?
Andi Simon: Well, I'm a big believer in self-care. In fact, we have a 30-day challenge of self-care. I coach a lot of my clients on it. But for me, you asked what I do. I try the night before, I put my to-do list together for the next day. Because for one reason or another, I found it difficult to get out of bed in the morning until I had it a little bit organized once and it was perfect. And the self-care is, I try to make sure that I do something for me before the day begins. And once I've done that, the day is perfect, because I've taken care of me. And so whether that's working out, work, exercise, taking my dog for a walk, even sitting and having a quiet cup of coffee before the day begins. And I've given myself permission to take care of me. And then you know, all the other stuff comes together.
At the end of the day, I found that there are some really neat things that my husband and I can do that's quiet. I'm not a TV watcher. What I find is, reading gives me a focus and a purpose. So once you begin to build a life, let's call it my meaning, I begin to see self-care wrap around. But I must tell you that I've always been pretty positive. And I'm blessed. I've been married for 54 years. And my daughters are happy. They're all healthy, my grandkids are great. And so if you spoke at the beginning about the richness you had in a life that had pain in it, and I have been blessed with a life that's had less than yours, but a little, but I'm really celebratory about every day being a gift.
I'll tell you one last story. Now in 2005, I had a horse roll over on me and he broke my neck and he gave me a concussion. But I'm walking, talking, dancing and every day I wake up and say, It's a gift. That was a moment, you never know. So stay positive, because there can only be one who can make you positive.
Paula Guilfoyle: Absolutely. So important. So important. And it sounds so simple. And it is, and yet our brain can go off track. So you really have to focus on that ability that you have to constantly change your thoughts. You can't control what comes in, you can control after that thought is created in your brain. You can decide, I don't feel good, I'm going to change that thought.
Andi Simon: Any insights that came out of pandemic experiences that have given a particular flavor or color to the work that you're doing?
Paula Guilfoyle: So yes, I think one of the things that I'm aware of is, everyone has been through some form of post-traumatic stress. We've all had something happen to us. And different people obviously handle it in different ways. So one of the things that I want to be aware of, and I would invite others to be aware of, is compassion. We really don't understand why that person is kicking and screaming, in a sense. That it's the three-year-old acting out, and I'll give you a somewhat funny story about my three-year-old.
I am with the most wonderful, wonderful partner I could ask for: Jeff. And Jeff, during our first year of dating, forgot my birthday, and called the next day and said, "Oh my gosh, I think your birthday might have been yesterday." And I said, "Yeah, it was. But you know, it's more of a weekend. I'm here in San Francisco and coming back to Charlotte, and we can celebrate on Monday. I've got the day off." And he said, "Oh, Monday won't really work. First of all, your birthday is past. I gotta play golf." Well, that was a trigger. I mean, it was the strangest feeling. So when you're really triggered on what I'll call a childhood wound, or childhood perception, and I said to myself, You know what? I need to hang up now, because I knew it wasn't going to turn out well.
So fast forward, I had a really challenging time giving that up until I recognized that it was my three-year-old, my five-year-old, who wanted a birthday party, and when I tell the story, I literally wear a little birthday hat on my head. And we don't know when the three-year-old or the five-year-old, or the seven-year-old is going to show up for someone. And then there's compassion, which he did offer me. He said, "I can see and I understand this must be a big deal for you. Or for some reason. So yes, you know, I'm gonna put off the golf game." As for his answer, he played the golf game, but we celebrated that night. So, you know, it's just a sense of compassion, because everybody's been a bit tossed about, and there's that little person in there that's fearful.
Andi Simon: It's been a great conversation. It's about time for us to think about our audience, and two or three things that you don't want them to forget. And your last story is unreal. One or two things that you really think are important. People often remember the ending better than the beginning.
Paula Guilfoyle: Okay, so a couple things. One is that voice in your head: that voice in your head does not tell the truth. And is not necessarily your friend. Now, let me rephrase that: the voice in your head, when you are not feeling good, is not telling you the truth. It's telling you limiting beliefs that may have been picked up during childhood, or may have been picked up a little later on. Your goal is to NBC: notice, bounce, and change that voice to say, You know what? I can little by little change that.
The second thing I would remind you is that second tool: pause, breathe, and smile. And then finally, just to get some resources. There's so many different ways you can get resources. I do have over 152 minute-reads. I call it One Minute Happy Blogs on my website. So my website is Claimleadership.com. And it'll just pop up. You know, if you want to sign up for the blog, just hit this. I work with leaders and teams who want to have better outcomes in their life at work and at home. They want to be more peaceful, more focused, more productive so that they can be a valuable resource at home and at work.
Andi Simon: I have been delighted to share your stories with our audience because our job, and you can hear the commonality here, is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can better your personal life, your professional life and your business. Whatever it is, remember, all of life is a conversation and each conversation, you can call it a trigger, but it's going to require a response from you. And I love the idea of whatever it is, start with a smile. That softens the whole conversation, takes off any of the edges to it, and humans love smiles. So it becomes a great way to start the day: smile and keep it going.
For our listeners in our audience, may I tell you how much I appreciate the fact that you've pushed us into the top 5% of podcasts globally, which is such fun and you come from across the world to see and listen to us. So my thanks. My books are available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business won the 2022 bronze Best Business Book Award in the Women in Business category, really cool. You can find it, read it, listen to it. It's done wonderful things for men and women trying to smash the myths that are holding us back. We're here to help you. Our job is to get you off the brink. You can reach us at info@andisimon.com and our website, simonassociates.net, is going through its rehab now and it's really exciting to be coming up shortly. Bye bye now. Have a great day. Stay healthy. Stay well. And if you listen to Paula, keep smiling.
Hear how to provide optimal customer journeys for your prospects
In this On the Brink podcast, I had an amazing conversation with Patrick Van Gorder, Executive Vice President and Partner of Level Agency. Conversations with strategic marketers is always exciting. The world we used to market in has changed. And marketing is supposed to encourage people not just to purchase but to engage with your products and services. The buyer, however, has changed their journey over the past 25 years. As we know from our own work as HubSpot Partners, the buyer’s first task when considering a solution to solve their problem is to Google it. If you don’t have a digital experience that comes up on the first pages of Google search, you're not a good answer for that person’s problem or question. What does that mean for your business? Patrick has many great answers to that question so listen in, learn and share!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Here are some statistics Patrick shared that you should consider:
- 65% of total advertising in 2021 was online digital advertising, which is an incredible stat by itself.
- Even more impressive is when you factor in the fact that it's up from about 50% just a couple of years before 2019. Digital advertising has become the lion's share of the pie and also the fastest growing segment of the pie.
- Dollars spent in digital channels go to one of these companies: Alphabet (parent company of Google), YouTube, Meta (parent company of Facebook), Instagram or Amazon.
Interesting isn't it?
As you consider what you are doing to grow your business, it might be time to listen in to our podcast.
Reflect on what you should be doing, and how to refocus your investments in marketing. Marketing is not an expense. It is and has always been a central part of your product design, development and promotion. Invest in it wisely and you will reap the benefits.
To contact Patrick
You can reach him on Linkedin or his website Level Agency www.level.agency.
Ready to really make your marketing work for you? Some great suggestions:
- Podcast: Michele Bailey—The World Of Marketing Is Transformed. Are You Ready For A New Strategy?
- Podcast: Mark Schaefer—Are You Ready For The Marketing Rebellion?
- Podcast: Melissa Copeland—Customers Want Great Experiences. How Can You Deliver Extraordinary Ones?
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, my great audience out there, my job is to help you get off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways so you can change. And you know that change is painful. But in these fast changing times, there are many choices. But it's important for you to have a better understanding of things so you can do it wisely, and quickly be agile. You know, fast is the new way. Now are you going to be faster and better at what you're doing?
I have with me today a fantastic individual whom I met through a Vistage group that I did. His name is Patrick Van Gorder. He's Executive Vice President of Level Agency. And I want you to know that I did a podcast for them. And I enjoyed it so much. I invited him back here so we could continue the conversation. Let me tell you a little bit about what we're going to talk about by introducing Patrick's bio.
Patrick Van Gorder has been part of a leadership team at Level Agency since the company's founding in 2010, which seems like yesterday, but it's not, it's like a moment ago. He's made measurable significant contributions in each role he's had, as director of campaigns and platforms, as a VP of Client Services, and now he's Executive Vice President. But his real desire for today is to share with you the changing nature of communication, marketing, and brand building for you and your company, and for things that matter to you.
You have to understand what's going on because the world has turned digital, if you haven't noticed. I have a hunch you have. I bet the first thing you do when you want something is to Google it, and so it's very interesting. He'll tell you some major statistics. But today we're going talk about how people buy and what the buyer's journey is like, and why digital marketing has become so essential to your skill set, your way of viewing the world, and what Patrick can help you with. Patrick, thank you for joining me.
Patrick Van Gorder: Hey, Andi, thank you so much for having me back. I'm excited to continue the conversation.
Andi Simon: Before we get into it, though, tell our audience a little more about who's Patrick, and the journey about why this has become so important for you.
Patrick Van Gorder: Yeah, thanks, Andi. So I am sitting here in sunny Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, home of Mr. Rogers, amongst other great Pittsburgers. I am a journalism and political science graduate that got into advertising accidentally. I graduated in 2009 into the midst of the Great Recession. I had no idea what I wanted to do. And I got a call from a colleague who was writing a website that was focused on comparison shopping for higher education. And I said, Let's go over there and let's do some work together. And I've never looked back.
I've been with Level Agency, which is that firm, ever since 2010. My partner and I, Patrick Patterson, purchased the company from the former owner in March of 2021. So it's been a long exciting and knowledge- and learning-filled journey for me. We're up to about 75 people now, most of which are still in Pittsburgh, but we've got staff and clients all across the country.
Our focus is helping businesses both learn about what their audiences are asking for, and how to better sell their products and position their products digitally. And also ultimately, to help them sell right ultimately. It's still true that the main function of marketing is sales or direct ROI, but the exciting thing, the thing that gets me out of bed every morning, is the reality that not only can we generate revenue, we can sell it. We can actually learn a great deal about where our customers are going, what they're looking for, and become even more efficient and more effective tomorrow because of the advertising we're doing today.
Andi Simon: Well, let's talk a little bit about it because we know that the buyer's journey has changed. And in the old world, which wasn't that long ago, we used to buy lots of advertising, very flat, push it out. And as people will say, Oh, really, but you know, that's sort of a past way of communicating and branding, and marketing is about storytelling. People buy your story as much as they buy the product or the package and it really matters how you communicate that and how you make it accessible to them. So let's talk about in the world that you're in, where all the dollars have gone to, and what's absolutely important for a listener to understand that they should be doing as well. A little bit more about why this is so important.
Patrick Van Gorder: Absolutely. So 65% of total advertising in 2021 was online, was digital advertising, which is an incredible stat by itself. But when you factor in the fact that it's up from about 50%, just a couple of years before 2019. That's not only the lion's share of the pie, but it's also the fastest growing segment of the pie. And the really interesting thing about that concentration of dollars in digital channels is 90% of that digital span goes to one of these companies right now. It goes either to the parent company of Google, YouTube, or other properties like that. It goes to Meta, parent company of Facebook, and Instagram, or it goes to Amazon. So what that means for your listeners is, there is an incredibly complex ecosystem out there. And there are dozens, hundreds, thousands of different platforms, different ad tech intermediaries, different tools out there. But really, if you focus on the vital few, the 90%, that make up the lion's share, you can do quite a bit. You can get quite a bit of leverage out of your spending.
And Andi, you mentioned something that I think is really interesting, and I've been thinking a lot about. So if you think about the ways that we thought about advertising in the past, if you've ever taken an advertising class, or you're someone that has some experience in advertising, you've probably heard of the funnel, the advertising funnel, where you have at the very top, awareness, and down at the bottom, you've got direct response, and things like that. And the reality is, that comes from a moment, when, if you think about what a television ad was, there was literally no other action you could take. You just had to watch the ad, and maybe there was a phone number at the bottom that said, Hey, call this number right now. There was no way to take action, there was no way to continue the conversation.
Think about a billboard. There's very, very little that you can do other than see and register what a billboard says. The reality in the digital space is, all of these channels are working together and allowing you to build your brand and build engagement with your brand in so many different ways all at once. So a Facebook ad is building brand awareness, but it's also driving engagement. It's also asking someone to fill out a form or buy a product. So it's operating all of the steps of this classic funnel at the same time.
Andi Simon: Well, don't leave that thought. Because as you're thinking about communicating your story or your message, what you'd like to see happen, it isn't bringing enormous top of mind awareness out there, it is figuring out ways to take the person who's ready to learn more, and move them through that wonderful journey until they're ready to purchase, taste and try. And so your whole process has been transformed to much more immediate.
I was in a group and one of the gentlemen said, People call us and they want to talk to somebody immediately. They want to listen to a doctor immediately. Instant gratification. They say, This is my time, I want to do a purchase right now. Connect me. I don't want to learn more. It's not slow. So how are you doing this with your clients? So my illustrative stories are case studies. Is that frustration?
Patrick Van Gorder: It's a great question. I'll use one of our clients that's in the sales enablement SAS world. So, they had an experience that was very much the old school approach to what you asked people to do online, which was fill out a form, and we'll contact you. This feels ancient because the way that the consumer perception has changed is, they've said, No, I will contact you when I want to talk. If you think that I'm going to subject myself to another telesales, funnels, another set of emails, you must be out of your mind. So I will contact you when I want to talk to you about sales. But in the meantime, what you can give me now is value, you can give me insight, something like a webinar or a white paper or a case study. You can help me know more about this space, learn more about your perspective and your thought leadership in this space. And then by the way, when I'm ready to talk, there's a form there. I'll get in touch right away. And I'll expect to be contacted pretty quickly.
But you know, the reality is, it's less about just being there. If you have to be there with value, you have to be there with something that the consumer cares about. Not just, Hey, give us your information and we'll call you when we feel like it.
Andi Simon: You know, one of the things that illustrates that is, you really aren't selling a thing, a product or your SAS story, you're selling a relationship. And people are really buying knowledge and wisdom and experience and a much bigger product than the product they're actually going to end up buying. And I've been reading a great deal about how the world is shifting from B2C, or from B2B to B4C and B4B, as if we are going to collaborate around something that you need and I can help you with. And it's becoming very interesting to watch that mindset change. Because as you're thinking about these clients, the customer wants you to work with them. "I'm making the right decision, not simply purchasing what I've got here, or being sold by somebody." So it's a really different buyer that you're dealing with. They're often younger, and sometimes not. But they also have different expectations on speed and ease. And is what you're seeing awesome?
Patrick Van Gorder: It is, in our own world, Level Agency as a services business. We really lean in on the consultative partnership approach. And I think we've seen a lot of very successful organizations take that same approach where it's not about the features, it's about the benefits. It's not about the services, it's about the solutions. And that's not to say that it needs to be completely impenetrable to understand what services and products a company actually does offer. You want to make it simple enough so that you can accommodate different types of searchers.
You might have someone that is coming to your site or coming to your physical office, and they know exactly what they want. They want a partner, or they want a general contractor-style vendor that's going to take the blueprints from the architect and build the thing exactly as they see it. But I think in many cases what they're really looking for is the architect and the general contractor, right? They're saying, I have this goal. I have this business objective. And we're coming to you to help us solve all of the problems that we're dealing with, and trying to achieve this objective. And you tell us how we can best use this set of tools that are available to us to achieve this business objective.
Andi Simon: Well you know for us, we're corporate anthropologists. We specialize in helping companies change. I talked about Blue Ocean Strategy, and why that's such a great way to help companies find creating markets as opposed to competing in them. But I must say that near to your point, it doesn't much matter if it's cultural change or strategy change. People come with a problem, or pain points, and a challenge. And I always find the conversations are very interesting.
We have a new client coming on now. And I must tell you that the way they came to us is different than the way we're going to serve them. What they really needed is different from what they thought they needed. And that's just people and I guess, in some ways, the packaging of the solutions you're offering. It's going to require some trust that there is the right solution for the problem that they've identified. How does data and data analytics fit into this?
Patrick Van Gorder: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I think the curiosity that you're describing is probably the single most important attribute that I find in the people in the knowledge economy in 2022. That little piece in the back of your brain that says, what's going on here? How do I understand this data or this perspective or this product in a new and interesting way? What we find is that there is so much data that is accessible to you if you have the willingness and the knowledge of where to look.
So, if we think about it, maybe it'd be helpful to think about it in the context of a case study. So we have a new client that we're onboarding, and we're seeking to understand where their audience is. They've got some perspective on who they'd like to speak to, and where they think that those people spend their time digitally. So one of the data gathering exercises that we do is we have a deep interview conversation, kind of the classic marketing: Tell us everything that you know about where you are, who your audience is, and where they live. But in the past, I think that was kind of the end of the line. Like, you have that conversation, you build your audience profile, and that sort of becomes the audience profile that you use for a lot of your targeting efforts.
What we do is, we say, Okay, so now we've gathered this perspective from you. Let's dig into the data that you have available, and validate that. What first party data do you have available? Do you have a CRM? When was the last time that you really explored? Is this an experience that you've had with clients as well?
Andi Simon: Of course, keep going, because the illusion of their reality is so interesting. But in fact, it's an illusion. And as you dig into their CRM, and when did you look at it? Again, I want you to finish your thought.
Patrick Van Gorder: So look at the CRM, look at the audience that's in there, then look at the analytics platforms that the client has to look at, Google Analytics. What can you learn about the audience, about the behavior once they come to the site, about how they get to the site? Take that curiosity and deep dive into information that maybe you've looked at before, and maybe you haven't.
And the great thing about these tools is, there's so much you know. You don't need a developer, you don't need an IT person to be able to understand these things. You just need to be able to watch a three minute YouTube video to say, Hey, how do I see behavior funnels in Google Analytics? Or how do I see the firmographic profiles in Salesforce or whatever those questions are. It's all there if you're willing to dig in and take a look. And then once you get into this, you look at the CRM, you look at the Google Analytics data, you look if there are ad platforms that are currently running.
So we would look at Google, Google ads at meta, at LinkedIn, or Bing, or Instagram, or wherever these folks are running ads. And then there's a whole 'nother ecosystem of audience information that you can glean from those platforms. And then that's not even getting into the third party tools that are out there that allow you to take an outside-in perspective, but you kind of have to follow the thread.
Andi Simon: Once you do notice, that influences what you do for whom, and how does it influence the kind of communication, client advertising that we create, in order to capture those people closer to their point of purchase, or somewhere along that buyer's journey? You know, some insights you can share?
Patrick Van Gorder: So what it does is, it arms you with a good data-supported ability to create a hypothesis, basically to say, I think that this audience of midmarket C-level people really care about the content that we have about cybersecurity or the content that we have about additive manufacturing, or whatever that content segment is. And I think that because you can see that those pages rank highly on the website. I can see that those are roles that are associated with whatever sort of the data story is that supports that.
And then with that information, you can formulate and enunciate a hypothesis for what you're trying to do. So it could be something like, My hypothesis is that if I show this cybersecurity content, if I feature this content to this audience for the next two months, I can dramatically expand my share of leads that are coming from this program. So you write that down, you write that hypothesis down, and you execute against it. And then you measure the results. And you compare what you thought would happen versus what actually happened, and they're very seldom exactly the same thing. But then you know what I learned from this experiment and then how do I further exploit or further take advantage of the lesson that I've learned from this experiment.
If you treat your marketing like these micro hypotheses, test spreads, instead of just the cost center, we're just over here, we're spending in advertising, because that's what we do, you'll be astounded by how much you can learn and how much knowledge and value and insight value that will bring to your enterprise.
Andi Simon: Do you find it at times immobilizes your clients? Because I often find that the brain is wonderful at what it knows. It's familiar, it's really comfortable. The habits I call are an illusion because your mind has a story. And that's what you believe to be true, there is no truth. The only truth is there's no truth. But that leads to that testing mindset, the curiosity quotient, the individual's willingness to learn by doing and keep learning from there.
Are you transforming your clients to becoming learners that way? Because I find that it requires them to come in all-knowing and leave full of curiosity. And that's fine, I'll take that. Because unless you're full of curiosity, you can't get unstuck. You don't know how to grow, you're certain, but it's not a working route. There is only so much we can fix until you open your mind to the possibilities. Do you find that the clients get transformed as well? Because I'm getting transformed as I listen to you.
Patrick Van Gorder: They do. They certainly do. It can be pretty inspiring to watch. We're lucky to have an incredible set of clients. I'm sure you have the same. You have the privilege of being pretty selective with who you work with. So we start with a really high bar for the types of partners that we work with. But over time, I think we demonstrate to them a couple of things that grow their own capability in this space.
First, we are fanatical about trust driving communication, meaning, if something isn't working, you're going to hear about it from us first, rather than have to decipher it, and figure it out yourself. We're very careful in our culture to make that a norm and an expectation. And then, in the context of our working, our weekly or bi-weekly or monthly coordinations, we really try to model the what-if type thinking so that we have a tool that's our hypothesis. It's like a database where all of our team members log their hypothesis, just like the one that I shared with you as an example.
Define what the success criteria are, and that's often a collaborative process with the client where the client says, You know, I've been noticing, the folks that I've been talking to at conferences are now much more interested in X. What would it look like for us to do some advertising against that segment? We collaboratively develop that campaign, and we learn from it. We run the test, and we learn from it, and instead of, Oh, well, it happens and if it doesn't work as well as we hoped, we kind of just move on. We don't really talk about it. We spend more time talking about what we learn when it doesn't perform as we expect it to than we talk about the thing that goes exactly as planned.
So I think over time we build that trust in that relationship where we become a curiosity engine. An extension, if you think about what marketing is, it's the interface between the public and the business. It's where most of your posts, first interactions with prospective non-current clients are, and that's such a privileged position to be in. But I think we often forget that so much of the privilege there is in the knowledge, not just in the opportunity to make a first impression or make a sale. It's also about what we can learn.
Andi Simon: Because we're coming out of the pandemic, assuming we're coming out of it, did you notice dramatic or important changes during that period that listeners should be paying attention to? And my hunch is that your curiosity opened up a whole lot of interesting learnings. Are there any that you can share?
Patrick Van Gorder: Yes, we saw a decade of change in a couple of years in terms of acceleration. What that meant, in practical terms, is that the trend toward digital advertising accelerated the trend from platforms like linear television to streaming to OTT to connected TV. Those trends accelerated. People spend more time online than ever before. And, for a while we were the only game in town when it came to marketing. As we open up, and I share your optimism that hopefully the changes are here to stay, but as we open up, there's a reality that there's a hunger for personal connection. There's a hunger for some of the things that brands have forgone: travel, face to face sales and things like that. But the genie is not going back in the bottle as it relates to the collaborative collaboration at a distance.
I think marketing at its best in 2022 is collaboration at a distance. It's this world where we're having real discussions and dialogues with people even though we're not face to face, or in the same meeting together. So I think to answer your question directly, Andi, the bottom line is, the space accelerated dramatically. The trends accelerated dramatically. And the brands that have not yet sort of shifted, if your budget looks anything like 65% of your spend is not in digital, that probably means that you're behind the optimal budget allocation.
Andi Simon: It's interesting, MacLeod had a great podcast on purpose-driven selling. But in some ways, it's not that different from purpose-driven marketing. The people who have a purpose sold better than those who didn't. And in your digital marketing, in a sense, you need to have a good clear purpose. What is it I'm trying to do, for whom and how, as opposed to, I have a product and I want to sell it. It becomes a bigger conversation in that process so that you get the right message to the right person when they're looking for you, as opposed to when you want to get it out there in sort of a vacuum, hoping it's the right time and digital it to do things that you can't do in person, like at 2am. It's just an interesting time. You know, as I look at our clock, and we're about ready to wrap up, my head is full of things I don't want the listener to forget, but I bet yours is as well. Patrick, some things that you want to leave them with.
Patrick Van Gorder: Yeah, I really liked the model that you just constructed, Andi, of marketing as the opportunity to have a discussion with someone at 2am, on their timeline and on their schedule. What I would say is one thing that I think is an important thing for brands to understand is, there are not in the majority of cases, it's not just one interaction at 2am, or 2pm, or whenever, it's a series of exposures, it's a series of conversations that allow brands to unfold that value proposition and that purpose to their prospective clients over time. So, there's not a single one in most cases. As tempting as it is to point to a single moment of truth, what Google calls the zero moment of truth, the Zima. The reality is that there are all of these influencing factors that sort of happened before that moment of truth, that are critical to the journey.
So what I encourage brands to think about is, What are some of those optimal customer journeys? And how can you provide value and insight and knowledge to prospects at every step of that journey? The other thing that's a big conversational piece in our space right now is the conversation around privacy. There is a major trend toward less, less of a surveillance state online. There's parts of that that are regulatory, if you look at what's happened in Europe and you look at the California legislation. That is half of it. And the other half is being driven by platforms themselves. Apple has made a real play toward being an agent of privacy for their users. And you also have things like the cookie, the third party cookie, that are being proactively devalued by Google now, in advance of a recognition that those things are not going to be viable in the future.
So, I think what that means is, there's a recognition that the promise of total accountability was always sort of a pipe dream. There were a lot of people that looked like me over the last 20 years that have sold this promise of full attribution, how you know exactly the value that every dollar that you spend is bringing back. And the reality is that, in this more fragmented privacy ecosystem, it's just clear that it's never going to be as clean and as neat as people want it to be. Because the reality is, Andi, if somebody listens to both of our podcasts, the podcast that you did for us and the podcast that we're doing here, and then they reach out to you, and they buy a book, what percentage of that book purchase was driven by seeing On the Brink behind you? Now, we're seeing On the Brink behind you in the earlier podcast. There's no right answer to that. So, I think, be wary of companies that overpromise as it comes to trackability, but at the same time, there's so much that you can learn and that you can measure and that you can know. There are really viable attribution models that you can build, but you have to go into it with an understanding that this is representative rather than completely.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, there is no certainty. So I agree with you, humans just keep searching for it. And I like the fact that we're searching for it because maybe it'll make fewer mistakes in the process. But it's complicated. The buyer is complicated. There are different parts. And when they buy what they thought they bought isn't necessarily what you thought you were selling them and how they use it. How many times have I gone into the field with my clients, and observed how customers were using their products inappropriately? Well, why is it inappropriate if you're using it? That's not what it was supposed to be for.
I had one friend who had an AI and software developing company, he fired the managers. And he had to get the engineers closer to the customer because the engineers were certain that the customer was stupid. And I was laughing. I said, The stupid customer syndrome, right? You build something brilliant and the customer just doesn't get it. But it's a really complicated world today because it's so complicated. The choices are so many, and everybody influences what comes up first on Amazon or in Google and what page you're on.
Did you know I work hard to do organic search so I'm on the first page of Google for corporate anthropologist, or cultural changee expert. I can make only the second page for Blue Ocean Strategy expert. But you know, all of our stuff is content designed to help you buy the right thing in the right way. And that's what you're doing too. If they want to reach you, Patrick, how can they do that best? We'll certainly have it on our podcast blog, but can you please share it for them.
Patrick Van Gorder: Visit us at Level Agency. You can just type www.level.agency into your search bar and there's a Contact Us option there. There's a lot of great content. Like I previewed earlier, you can check out our podcast. Test.Learn.Grow is the name of our podcast. You can get it wherever you get podcasts, and check out the episode that we did with Andi previously. It was a really, really good conversation.
Andi Simon: Well, you know, Patrick and I share the same joy and help people do things that are challenging for them. And our conversation was about howBlue Ocean Strategy creates markets. This one is about how do you stop wondering how to sell or market your product and do it, because the only way you will learn is to be curious to test, make few assumptions, just a little one assumption is, I need Patrick to help me make the right decisions and test them all so I can see what's actually happening. But the world is going digital to a degree that you should be as well. And I don't care if you're a solopreneur, or a small business or a growing entrepreneur or a mid-market client, like we have so many. People are going to buy you remotely, they're going to buy you online, they're going to buy you by what they see. Actually people download white papers and yellow mark them when I meet with them. It's sort of like, are you real? It comes through, all that stuff. Patrick, it has been such fun. We can talk for a long time. Thank you so much for today.
Patrick Van Gorder: Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time. And I look forward to hearing what's next for Dr. Simon.
Andi Simon: Let me just wrap up for my audience. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming. You have made us one of the top 5% of podcasts globally, which I think is fantastic. Bring along friends, send me your ideas. Patrick came to me through something I did. We show up a lot. And that's how we market ourselves. We show up a lot. And things that come our way.
On The Brink is here to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Both of my books have won awards, so I'll promote them a little bit.On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is how a little anthropology can help your business grow, and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business was just awarded our second bronze Best Book Award for 2022 from Axiom for women in business as a category. And I do think that this is a time to rethink when you're on the brink. I like my titles, so you can begin to see things through a fresh lens. That's my job as an anthropologist, to help you step back, look at things, and begin to understand the changes that are happening. Because fast is going to be the new and you have to really be agile, adapt and begin to make things happen for you. So thank you for joining us today. Thank you, Patrick Van Gorder for being here. We'll post this and you guys can share it, and it's just a pleasure. Thanks again. Remember, reach me at info@andisimon.com and I'll be here for you. Bye bye now. Have a great day. Bye bye. Thanks.
Hear how to rediscover your curiosity to "see" new ideas!
Today I have a fabulous speaker for us, Dr. Debra Clary, who is here to talk with us about curiosity. What a great topic, and also a great lady to have you listen to. Debra shares how we should stop assuming we know the answers to our questions or the solutions to our problems. Rather, it is time to begin to think and listen differently, to open our minds to possibilities. You might be asking: But how do I become and remain curious? (There is actually research on a person's CQ—curiosity quotient). Have you thought about it? Do you love new things? Or does your brain fight the unfamiliar and flee away from it? Many great things to think about. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
You're really going to enjoy Debra's perspective. She talks to thousands and thousands of Humana folks about how to be curious, and today she shares those insights with us so we too can push past our mental boundaries and discover new ideas and solutions. Connect with her on LinkedIn or send her an email: dclary@humana.com.
Three important takeaways from today's podcast:
- Children are born highly curious. That’s how they learn how to live life every day. They question everything and see things with minimal bias. As we grow up, we begin to formulate a story in our mind’s eye that captures, for each of us, our perspective on our reality.
- As we grow up, we gain skills and suppress when we don’t know something. Or if we see something that doesn’t fit our mind map, we delete it or ignore it. "It can’t be too important if it doesn’t fit our own sense of what matters most."
- Rather than just accept your efficient mind, ask yourself, What can I do to stay open to possibilities? Debra's advice: Say to yourself, “I know that my brain is wanting efficiency, and it's going to want to get there as fast as possible. But I'm not going to allow it. I'm going to remind myself to remain open so I might collect the relevant information in order to be most helpful.”
Our job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can adapt to these fast-changing times
At SAMC, we help you build your open mind and your curious eyes. We show you how to see what is happening before you believe something to be true. And using a little anthropology, we help you anticipate and capitalize on today's changes so you can not just survive but thrive.
Want a deeper dive into seeing through a fresh lens? Here's a place to start
- Blog: Corporate Anthropology: How To See Your Business With Fresh Eyes So It Can Grow
- Podcast: Ask Andi—How Anthropology Helps People See Things With Fresh Eyes
- Podcast: Todd Cherches—Want To Lead Better? You Must Visualize The New, Not Fear It
Additional resources for you
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide and my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. I want to help you soar again. And in these fast changing times, we've been doing so much writing and speaking about leadership in the midst of all the tumult and disruption. How do you really see things through a better lens? And how do you know how to respond quickly and effectively to build those relationships in new ways?
So today, I have a fabulous speaker for us. Dr. Debra Clary is here to talk to us about curiosity. What a great topic and a great lady to have you listen to. And what Debra is going to share with us is a lot about how we should stop assuming we know and begin to think and listen differently, opening our minds to possibilities. And so it's going to be a great day for us to share how to be curious. What's your curiosity quotient? Have you thought about it? Do you love new things? Or does your brain fight it and flee away from it?
So let me tell you about Dr. Clary first, and then Debra will come on and tell you all about herself. Debra Clary is an executive with three decades of leadership experience with four Fortune 100 companies: PepsiCo, Coca-Cola, Brown-Forman and Humana. Her broad-based functional expertise spans from global operations and marketing, strategy development and human performance to corporate board and investor relations. In her current Humana role, she's Associate Vice President for the Office of the CEO, and works with the executive team to improve their impact and contribution through executive development and cultural transformation. You're going to just enjoy her perspective because she goes around and talks to thousands and thousands of Humana folks about how to see, feel and think in new ways to be curious. Debra, thank you for joining me today.
Debra Clary: My pleasure, Andi.
Andi Simon: Now tell the audience if you don't mind, who's Debra, what's your journey? It sounds like you're a curious person because in some ways, that curiosity has led you to great places. Who is Debra?
Debra Clary: Thank you, Andi, again. Well, I started my career at Frito-Lay and I actually started as a route driver. So right out of grad school, my first job was driving a route truck for Frito-Lay in the city of Detroit. And weren't my parents proud, right? "You went to undergrad and then two years of business school, now you're driving a route truck?" But it's really where I learned the basics of business, when I started at that bottom, loading my truck delivering potato chips, learning how to work with delivery individuals as well as the store managers. And I spent about a decade at Frito-Lay in various sales and marketing type roles.
And after that, I spent 10 years at the Coca-Cola company. And I started there as a general manager in the Philadelphia area. And then I moved to Atlanta, and worked in a global marketing role. And from there, I joined Brown-Forman, the makers of Jack Daniels. I got to learn a lot about bourbon and whiskey. And there I was, the VP of Strategy. And then I got really curious about culture and leadership. I had worked for two very large organizations, very well structured. And then I went to Brown-Forman, which was a much smaller company, and still very much run by the family.
And so I began to see differences in cultures and differences in leadership and I got curious. And so I went back for a doctorate in Leader Development from George Washington University. I would fly to DC once a month on a Thursday night. I would go to school 12 hours Friday, 12 hours Saturday, and then I would fly back home on Sunday. And so I did that for three years. And I wrote my dissertation on executive women and leadership, and later published it into a book.
And then about that time, Humana was starting a Leadership Institute. And they approached me and said, Gosh, with your business background, your academic background, this could be a really good fit. And I said, No way, I am food and beverage. I'm, you know, the Super Bowl and concerts. I mean, I'm living the big life. And these are consumer packaged goods companies.
And the more I thought about it, and the more conversations I had with them, I realized I had an opportunity to take all of that experience and help Humana, who was a company that was just beginning to pivot into being really centered on the customer and the needs of the customer. So with my consumer goods background, and my academic background, I joined Humana to start up the Leadership Institute. And I did that for about the first eight years that I was there. And then the new CEO came in and we created a new role in which I was embedded in his team. And helping his team really improved their team dynamics, and their impact and contribution to the organization. So I've been doing that for the last eight years.
Andi Simon: You know, I'm curious about your career curiosity, because I too have a career that didn't stay for a very, very long time in one place. I stayed long enough to begin to understand its culture, what was developing. I like things that are vacuums that I can change. But then when I went into my own business, I began to realize that my job was to help others see things through a fresh lens, and to do it in new ways to be curious. And in the leadership academies I have started, people are emerging to see how to lead differently and listen differently. So as you're now thinking about your career, and I'm so delighted you shared it, I don't know you so well, it's a pleasure to really begin to get to understand your history because it's framed who you are today. So as you're thinking about this, and I know you speak widely on curiosity, share with our audience, what is curiosity? Where does it fit? Why is it so vital right now? Because that curiosity quotient, that CQ, is becoming extremely important. Your turn.
Debra Clary: Yeah, the how I got curious about curiosity, if you will, is, it was probably about four or five years ago. I was sitting next to our CEO at a meeting and he leaned over to me and he said, Do you think curiosity? Is it learned? Or is it just innate? And I said, I don't know. I want to go study this. And so I just dug into all the research on curiosity. And I really became a huge fan of it, even though, I think for me, I am a learner, and my parents fostered that in me. I feel like I can't breathe if I'm not learning something each day. And that's how I'm wired, so to speak.
But when he asked that question, I became more serious about it in terms of mechanics. Can it be taught? And the answer is, absolutely, curiosity can be learned. And it's also that curiosity is not a trait. Curiosity is a state, and it can be fostered by yourself and others. There was a group of neuroscientists out of London that wanted to really understand this. Their focus was on child development. And what they came to understand from watching children is that, and this won't come as a surprise to you, but children, especially toddlers, asked a lot of questions. Matter of fact, they asked 396 questions a day. So every minute and 56 seconds, a toddler was asking a question. Now the question may not come verbally, it may come when they're pointing at something. So children are incredibly curious, because the world is a wonder to them.
Well, what they found out is that for those caregivers that tried to answer those questions, and stayed with their child, they found on this longitudinal study that these children were more academically successful, more socially connected, and more emotionally stable. So as children, we come into the world curious. And if it's fostered, it gives us a better shot at life.
Now, another research group out of London studied curiosity in the elderly. They wanted to understand why some of those in their 80s are still curious. So those that were reading and were intellectually engaged in walking and really active until their death, they had ⅓ less dementia. So you think about this: we come into the world curious, and it's really good for our brain, because our brain is lit up when we're curious. It's really good for us at the end of life. But what happens in the middle? Why do we stop being curious? And the reasons are, just just think about how we're taught.
So from a Christian view, one of the first stories we learn is that Adam and Eve were curious about the tree of knowledge and they ate and then you know what happens there. But you look at Greek mythology and you look at the story of Icarus, who wanted to fly, and his father gave him wings of wax and said, Don't go too close to the sun. I'm curious. Of course, my favorite is don't open Pandora's box, right?
So as children, we begin to learn not to ask questions, and that children are to be seen and not heard. And you have to sit in your chair and all of those things that are messaging that we find out. And so we go on to universities. We become accountants and attorneys and medical doctors, and we become experts in our field. And so we get rewarded for our expertise, and our curiosity can diminish because of what we need to get done. And not to mention time constraints, right?, just not having enough time to be able to have that freedom to feel like you can be curious.
Andi Simon: You know, we know so much more about how our minds work. And I love Marisa Peer. She speaks about the fact that the mind does several things. It does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. And so if you want to be an expert, it doesn't allow you lots of room for curiosity. It loves the familiar, not the unfamiliar. And that amygdala will hijack things that are unfamiliar to you that you might be curious about. And so it creates a lot of cortisol that says, That's painful, don't do that. And it really likes to select the familiar and loves the habit, and so you're very efficient, your brain uses 25% of your body's energy. So you're really efficient if you're not thinking beyond what your mind thinks is the thing to do. And once it has that story in there, it doesn't like to change it. That's work.
And as you're thinking about that, what we know is that once you get locked into that story that creates your illusion of your reality, you live it, and you only see the things that conform to it. But what I love about what your research suggests, and you're suggesting, is that our growth comes from being curious about what we don't know, pushing our brains to open up to possibilities for the art of the possibility, the art of what I'm not sure of, to listen, not to fit things into your brain.
My last little story is, when I go out with a new client, we go researching their customers. And I always love this because the two of us were in the same place. We walked out, we wrote down everything we heard, we compared notes. And it was as if we were in two different places. They were listening for all the things that conform to them. And I'm listening for all I'm curious about. I'm looking for all the things that are gaps, that don't fit what would give them opportunities to grow. So as you're thinking about this, how do we help people see things broader, listen differently, and to be curious? You said an important thing: it's not innate, it's a state of thinking. It's enabling, it's allowing, it's trusting, it's encouraging. It is taking flight walks, so your brain can quiet down and think about things. Some insights or some ideas you can share.
Debra Clary: So I think you're spot on in the sense that it starts with the mindset. Setting your intention of being open-minded. Also saying, "I know that my brain is wanting efficiency, and it's going to want to get there as fast as possible. But I'm not going to allow it, I'm going to remind myself that I'm going to remain open so that I might collect the relevant information so that I can be most helpful."
And, one of the things that I see: here's a typical exchange between a leader and an employee. An employee comes in, and they sit down and they put the problem on the table. And the leader and the employee look at the problem, and they both try to solve it. Now as the leader, you've been promoted into that role, because you're probably an expert in that area, and then you both try to solve the problem. Well, another way to do that is to allow the employee to focus on the problem and the leader ask a series of questions.
And you're doing two things for this. One, you're teaching that employee how to think for themselves, and most likely they have the answer. They maybe even haven't thought about it in a way that's going to get the best results. And so the role of the leader is to ask open-ended questions, and then provide support and encouragement that they can do that. That's why you're building the critical thinking of an employee. But that's an error I see that leaders make, that easy fix instead of remaining open, and to ask questions, so the employee can think about it.
Andi Simon: It sounds like you're urging those leaders to be coaches, not command and control. "I have the answer. I'll tell you what to do." Instead, you're saying, "I'm going to enable you to creatively find solutions yourself because you've got the answers. That's why you're here. So how do I help you do that?" Like a coach might, instead of telling the employee they're going to facilitate a whole process of discovery. Do you also encourage them to come back with a view to go back and talk to others? I mean, I'm curious how you're developing those leadership skills because they're essential to developing the team and the organization, at least I think they are.
Debra Clary: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the first thing is just the awareness of why they may not do that. So I don't want anyone to feel badly about their leadership, I really want to be additive and generative to what they're currently doing. And just saying, "We recognize that you're under pressure, you're under stress, you're under constraints for time." And it may feel like the easiest thing to do is to give the individual the answer, and maybe sometimes that is the case. But in general, if the role of a leader is to develop that individual to be stronger, then leading with questions to help them create that, that critical thinking, is going to be really, really powerful. You're going to have a better employee if you take that extra time to do that.
And the most important thing is, you're expressing your competence in that individual's abilities. And that you also want to encourage them to continuously speak up about their ideas and that we want to explore them. The other thing that we do is start with the mindset and encourage the leaders that this isn't easy, but you're gonna get this. And then we take them through a series of what are good authentic questions, and what are non-genuine questions, if you will. So a genuine question is really stating, "I am really wanting to understand where you're coming from, I really want to understand your line of thinking." And so you come with that heart of, "I'm truly interested."
Non-genuine questions are, you are reinforcing what you think you already know. "I'm going to pretend I'm asking questions. But the reality is, I have the answer and I'm trying to lead them to an answer." We've all watched these legal shows on TV, right? And isn't it true that, Where were you the night of...? And so we're asking our leaders not to push people into a corner, but rather keep the conversation open.
Andi Simon: Working with them, do they embrace it? Or do they do that resistance? And shiny object stuff? Where they say, Yes and then don't mean it? Or do you have to roleplay with them? How do you develop them? I'm curious about your curiosity.
Debra Clary: We do a workshop around curiosity, and we talk specifically about the process. We talk about the science of the brain. And it may sound kind of technical, but it's actually quite interesting in terms of what the brain is doing when you're curious, and how healthy it is for your brain to stay active and alert. And so we start with the science. We give them some of these studies, and then we talk about why we are naturally curious about what has happened to us in our lifetime that has led us to where we are today. And then we show a path forward that states that you can shift the way that you show up as a leader by just simply asking different questions.
And so we take them through what is a genuine question, what is a non-genuine question. We actually then have them do an application where they work in groups. They determine if this is a genuine question or a non-genuine question. How would they strengthen it if it's a non-genuine question? So we allow them to put it into application at the moment. And then we encourage them to be curious.
Andi Simon: Do they feel the energy in their brain because they're learning a whole new skill, they're breaking out of the incurious that they've been well-honed in to become something that they were way back when they were kids, so they really know how to do it? I'll tell you something in a second, but I'm anxious for your answer. How do they feel the energy or do they play and then leave? I mean, you're working hard. They need very strong people to help them do better.
Debra Clary: Yeah, I think that they feel very energized. You know, it's inclusive curiosity. It's fun, right? It's nothing that requires a lot of complexity, if you will, and the way in which we do the workshop, we put curious things in there. And then we tell them why they've done it right. We've asked this because of this reason, and it's really fun. It's high energy.
Andi Simon: The reason that I asked you is that we play innovation games where we are innovation trained facilitators, and what we found was that when you put people into game mode, they relax. You know, humans always play and once you go into a game mode, you can solve problems with such creativity, curiosity and almost without even knowing that the game has enabled you to think beyond the box that you're in. We talk about creating a new sandbox instead of even thinking out of the box. But humans are very complex.
I'll never forget, about a third of our clients are in healthcare, and doctors take 13 years to adopt evidence-based medicine. That's gone back 10 years now. But there's a lot of resistance to evidence-based medicine that they should be curious about understanding and being able to apply, but the risk factor is so high that they flee. It's easier to fall back on what they learned then to try and test the new and almost risk the fact that I'm not quite sure how to do this, or whether it will work or not. So it becomes an interesting human transformation. I bet you enjoy what you're doing.
Debra Clary: Oh, I love it. I love it. It takes my passion. And you know, I've just now become somewhat of an expert in the area. It's fun to blend them.
Andi Simon: Do you measure in any way a rising curiosity or some way of indicating that there's a change in the culture of the organization? Or do you just hope?
Debra Clary: Well, we do a curiosity index. And so because one of our key points is that curiosity is contagious. And so if you are around others that are curious...so you work with pretty much a set, people set a group in your team. So you can help each other be curious. And so we measure the curiosity of a team. And so when we do the workshop, at the end of it, we reveal what the current curiosity index is of that team. And we also show them how they compare to other teams within the organization. And of course all companies are competitive...like, All we want is to be more curious then the finance group, or, We want to be more curious in that group. But we don't go back and measure them again. But we really encourage them to think about how they can be different with one another, whether it be a leader, an employee, or if it's just to colleagues or even with your own leader, how can you come forward with a different mindset in different questions?
Andi Simon: This has been such fun. And Debra, I am enjoying this more than you can imagine, and how to bring this into my toolkit. And for our listeners, how do you bring this into your toolkit because I do think there's something here that is enormously important during fast changing times. You're gonna be curious about things you're unfamiliar with because it's coming at you from all over. Our whole ecosystem is changing. Well, I'll list all the things that we talked about in our workshops, but it's just an abundance of change. And that means you should be curious about it instead of frightened. Don't flee it, don't appease it, it's gonna be cool. Couple of things you don't want our clients, our customers here, our audience, to not forget.
Debra Clary: I would say that curiosity is a state and not a trait. It's contagious. It can be learned, and that those that are curious will always be in demand.
Andi Simon: Oh, I love that. And mostly because people have opened their minds to new possibilities and opportunities. That's terrific. If you want to be engaged as a speaker, or in some other fashion, perhaps sell your book, how can they reach you?
Debra Clary: They can connect with me either on LinkedIn or my website, which is Debraclary.com.
Andi Simon: Good. That's terrific. And we'll put that up on our blog post and so forth and promote. So for all of my audience out there, thank you for coming. You've lifted us into the top 5% of podcasts globally, which I think is quite an honor. And I get emails from across the globe. So if you have people you want me to interview so you can hear them with a fresh eye and a new lens on it, let me know who that is.
Today we've had Dr. Debra Clary. Thank you for joining me today. It's been such a pleasure. And I always encourage you to reach out to me at info@Andisimon.com. Send me your thoughts. Send me your ideas. My second book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, just won a 2022 Bronze Best Business Book of the Year award in the women in business category by Axiom and I'm honored, and it's a pretty cool book, you will enjoy it. And on that note, I'm going to say goodbye. Have a wonderful day. Keep thinking in new ways. Be curious, because I think that's going to be a really good part of a new way of thinking for you. So thanks again. Bye bye now.
Hear how to harness your inner CEO and prioritize your happiness
Are you the CEO of your life? What does that mean? In this podcast, I bring to you Becca Powers Vaughn. Her story, like those of so many women, is in part about discovering your own self-worth, in part realizing that you should not let others define who you are, and in part turning your purpose into something to benefit others. But this podcast is not just for women. Men, listen carefully. Becca’s message is as relevant for you as it is for women. Why? So you can help women thrive in your personal and your professional life. A wise woman with a lot to teach us.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
**Much to learn from Becca's “aha” moment**
She says it was not a very pretty moment, but one in which she had to stop the “blame and complain” game. If you are doing something like Becca was doing—blaming others for your limits or your difficulties—it is a good time to listen to this podcast and discover yourself.
Becca also has a great book you should dig into: Harness Your Inner CEO: Rise Into Passion, Prosperity, and Empowerment.
Three things that help empower women to become the best they can be:
- Look in the mirror and tell your mind that you are a beautiful woman.
- Your mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. So, what do you want it to do? I am serious. What do you want to feel, see and think so you can serve yourself?
- Your story is what holds you back, until you craft a story that opens doors for you. It is a good time to rethink you.
How to get in touch with Becca
Contact her via LinkedIn, Twitter, her website www.beccapowers.com or email her at Beccapowers1313@gmail.com. Also check out her portfolio: linktr.ee/beccapowers1313
Want to know more about taking care of yourself and being CEO of your life?
- Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times!
- Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?
- Podcast: Stuck or Stalled? The Time is Right to Rethink Your Journey
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Good morning. Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide. And remember, my job is to get you off the brink. I don't want you stuck there, nobody's going to be stalled. What we need to do is help you. And I say these words very intentionally to help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can change. And you know, your brain hates change. Sometimes it hates me for telling you you should change. But you also know that things aren't always exactly the way you want them to be but somehow the habits take over and your mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. Now we've got to change.
So I have today a wonderful woman, Becca Powers Vaughn, and you're going to love listening to Becca’s story. I have a hunch it may reflect many of our own stories. And then we're going to talk about things that matter to all of us, like how we change our balance and our work life? How do we really find success? What does that mean? Remember, we're meaning makers. Humans don't have any intrinsic value, so what is success? Are you there? Are you going? Is it a journey? Becca, thank you for joining me today.
Becca Powers Vaughn: Yes, thank you for having me.
Andi Simon: Tell the listener who is Becca, what's your journey, and then we'll talk about your book. Her book is Harness Your Inner CEO: Rise Into Passion, Prosperity, and Empowerment. We'll talk a little bit about that. But so many other things that she's learned as she's been on this journey. So, who is Becca?
Becca Powers Vaughn: So I will introduce myself in the form of a story because I think that it'll help the listeners get a really good idea of where we're going to go with this conversation as well. A little bit about me. So my story starts on the bathroom floor, as far as wanting to help other women. And I'm going to explain that more in just a second.
So I'm a 20-year career tech sales executive. I've worked for companies like Cisco, Dell and others. And in the course of my journey, I have sacrificed a lot. I am a mother of four. I have an 18-year-old and a 20-year-old and then an 18- and 20-year-old stepson and stepdaughter. My husband and I have raised a blended family for 12 years. In the pursuit of it all, I didn't have much work-life balance in some of those days. But I remember back in 2013, I was a regional sales manager for Dell. And as a leader, and you might relate to this Andi, hearing your podcast...I've listened to quite a few.
But I have a firm belief that people need to come before profits. And while I was a sales leader at Dell, I got recruited by a company that had a very similar philosophy. And I wanted to jump at that opportunity. So I left Dell and in the process of resigning, my VP of sales at the time heard me say all this and said, instead of rejecting me or accepting me, he's like, "Becca, you are the CEO of your life and I'm so proud of you." Right, yeah. So at that moment, I was very empowered. I went into this new career and what ended up happening in this new new career is that I wasn't an exact fit. My leadership style was very different. And what I found out is that in not being fully accepted, because my style was different, instead of coming to terms with that myself, and questioning whether this is a fit for me or not, I stayed committed to this belief. And in doing so, even though it was noble and I think a lot of listeners can maybe relate to this, even though it was a noble cause before profits, what I was really doing was sacrificing my well-being in pursuit of this big thing that I thought was super important.
And after three years of doing that, I ended up overextending myself, way too much to the point of extreme exhaustion. And at that point of extreme exhaustion, it was one night after a really bad day at work again, three years into this role, I put the kids to bed, doing all the things. I go to take my makeup off, and I fell to the floor with fatigue. And I always say, it was in my most powerless moment that I came in touch with my power.
Andi Simon: You sound like Arianna Huffington, who discovered that self care isn't the afterthought. It has to be tough though, and I am laughing out loud because I remember trying to get my tenure and developing pneumonia so bad that it took me six months to get my health back. Why do we do this to ourselves? What did you discover?
Becca Powers Vaughn: Well, I discovered that, and I have the goosebumps as you say that because this is exactly what I showed up to talk about. And I'm so glad there's a relationship going on. Because I think the reason that we do that is because we care, especially as women, we're very servant-based. We are used to taking care of multiple things. And so it's very natural for us to almost abandon ourselves in the pursuit of the things that we think are important to us. And I think that is a really important part of the message, because we beat ourselves up a lot as women. And it's like, Oh, how could I have done that? Or how can I not have seen that? And really, at the end of the day, how did I get on the bathroom floor? I got here because I cared? Yes, not because I didn't care.
Andi Simon: I'm curious about when you got off the bathroom floor, which you clearly did, did you have that epiphany that said, Enough, I'm going someplace else, or did you push on and do it better, or changed within your life-work balance, or what was your epiphany?
Becca Powers Vaughn: So my epiphany on the bathroom floor is going to tie into the beginning of the story when my VP told me I was the CEO of my life. I'm sitting there on the bathroom floor crying, in a state of powerlessness and brokenness. And then all of a sudden, I remember giving an exhale, like as if I was praying or calling out for help, I don't know, like, I can't power through another day. I just remember thinking this to my head, like, I don't know what to do. I'm feeling powerless. I don't know what to do.
And all of a sudden, I call it my instant miracle, that conversation came back to my forefront. And I remember, it was almost like a whisper: "Becca, you are the CEO of your life." And I started giggling actually. I'm like, on the bathroom floor. And this moment of being a complete mess. And my emotions were telling me. It's okay to laugh. I started laughing at myself. And I'm like, Well, if I'm the CEO of my life, I shouldn't be crying on the bathroom floor. I have a lot more power than I think I do. So I rose off the bathroom floor a different woman than the one that went down. And that's how I came up with the title of the book, Harness Your Inner CEO, because it was about harnessing that energy. I'm the CEO of my life. I've got to look at my finances, I've got to look at my spiritual self. I've got to look at my emotional self, mental self, my physical self, and I'm responsible for it all.
Andi Simon: So let me clarify, I didn't hear the title til you just said it. It's harnessing. I like that. Take charge because now you can begin to visualize, and we're visualizers, what it is that you have learned. But you want others to see that we're going to take charge of our total being, not a little, a whole thing. Please continue.
Becca Powers Vaughn: That gave me the goosebumps again. I love this conversation. So yes. So then I was going to tie back into both the things we talked about: success without sacrifice and work-life balance. What I realized about work-life balance is, it really wasn't obtainable in the way that it was being fed to me by the media, and social and work environments and things along those lines. And then there was a way that I could go about success. It was more of a question, but I knew it was possible. And like, is there a way to go about chasing my success? Because there's a lot of things I love about my career, actually. But can I chase success without sacrifice? And so those became two themes that I really explored and got it out within myself.
Andi Simon: And in the process, did you go on a journey? I'm asking because in my book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, several of the women went off on journeys at that catalytic moment when what they were doing wasn't good. But what they wanted to do wasn't clear. And those journeys, whether they took them through Africa or Europe or wherever with a backpack, or taking time to think and wonder. What did you find?
Becca Powers Vaughn: Yes, so I did go on a journey. So my journey was about two years long, but what I think is unique about my journey is, I stayed exactly in my life. I was a mom and my kids were in middle school at the time. I didn't have time to go on sabbaticals or anything like that. But I realized I could go on a sabbatical within myself. And that's exactly what I did. So I did start evaluating whether that job was a fit or not. And as I started asking myself questions and understanding, I think one practical tip I can give listeners is that our bodies are going to tell us what's a fit. When things feel good, we feel relaxed, we feel butterflies, we get excited. When things aren't a fit, and we're still questioning, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, we're using logic to make it okay, our bodies will tell us.
I've got a pain in my shoulder. I'm having headaches every night. And once I realized that those signs from my body were really symptoms of things not being a fit, I just kept exploring things that made me feel better. And I ended up in a new job a few months later. The one part I want to share before we pause and go back into conversation is that for me, I had to leave my own way. And what I mean by that is, I technically demoted myself. I went back to outside sales, to some sales professional. And in that, in that one move, I increased my income. I started having success without sacrifice. I found what work-life balance was for me. I was able to put down my phones and emails and dedications by 5:30. I ended up getting a sales territory for the Florida Keys because I'm in South Florida, and I had to drive down to the keys every three weeks. And now I had water on both sides of me with dolphins jumping in the water.
Andi Simon: Your visual is so powerful because I truly believe there's a path through life, a little serendipity, but a lot of self-awareness, to your point. We decide with the heart and the eyes, not the head. And so if the audience hears about what you do, and how you do it, and it doesn't feel good every morning, you wake up without a smile on your face, you're on the wrong path. And you can stay on that line and keep pushing it. And Becca could tell you she could have, but there's something in your physical, emotional, human, being. You know how they talk about the gut. There really is a gut that's connected to what you're doing. Did you go searching for that? Or a job? Or did it find you?
Becca Powers Vaughn: Thank you for asking that question because I get again the goosebumps. It is a very powerful thing when we finally stop powering through. Maybe it's surrender. That word was always kind of a complicated concept for me to fully grasp. But I do know that that's what happened in my moment on the bathroom floor the next day. And that's like, I have a saying: Admit when things are wrong or just admit when things aren't going right. The next morning, I called one of my work best friends. I was like, Jessie, I just need to tell you that this isn't working. And I ended up on the bathroom floor last night, but I'm empowered today. And the next thing I know, within four hours, she calls me with a job lead to the company I ended up leaving for. And so yes, it just fell into my lap within hours, within 24 hours.
Andi Simon: But are we different from the rest of the world? Or are we just paying attention to it differently? I'm convinced that serendipity is one of your best resources. And sometimes you don't really know why something has happened, but you do know that something is happening. And if you can pause for a moment, and you have your house, you have your family, you know you have your husband, you have all these things going right, what's wrong? You want to say something?
Becca Powers Vaughn: I'm nodding my head just because it was the pause. As women, I think we power through life as well. Women, I think one of our superpowers is our resilience and our ability to even set powerful intentions for ourselves, even though we can be going through hell. And just like the next day is, I got this, I'm going to show up as my best self. And it was in doing that too many times that I actually got stuck. And it was that power of the pause that allowed me to reevaluate everything.
Andi Simon: It is interesting because we don't know where we're going but we do know as women who are aspirational, and career-minded, whatever that means. We could never be simply a stay-at-home mom. I had two daughters. They were 14 months apart. And three weeks after each of them, I was back in the classroom. I mean, that wasn't the way one should do it. But we are very intentional in some ways but not reflective in others. And I got my tenure. And I've been the EVP of a bank and I've been successful in my business for 20 years. But along the way, there have been aha moments like you have.
For our listeners, think carefully about the aha moment the pandemic has offered you. I often preach: Never waste a crisis. This is not one that I would have ever anticipated or encouraged to find us, but don't waste it. Because if nothing else, on your bathroom floor, you have a moment now to really rethink the things that you're doing and how you're doing them. I'm seeing the Great Resignation, which is because people are back to work, and they're fine, but they just moved around in jobs. They also were catalysts for employers. You said, People before profits. What happened is the employees said, Us before you. Maybe there's a message here? So as you're moving along your own journey, where are you now? Where are you going?
Becca Powers Vaughn: So that's an interesting question, because definitely life has unfolded. For me, in the most beautiful, magical, and to your point, unexpected ways. So after my two year journey of reestablishing what was important to me, reprioritizing, my career took off. In my highest position, I was an Operational Sales Director with 110 people under me and a $500 million annual number. What I realized is that it wasn't defining success. For me, success meant, I did like making money, but I also liked making an impact. And so I started finding roles that I felt I was able to deliver that impact, and they varied and the title. I realized that title was more something that fulfilled my ego rather than fulfilled my satisfaction.
So I started chasing fulfillment and impact. As a result, I started making more money. As a result of feeling like I'm making an impact, and feeling more fulfilled, I started having what we want to call work-life balance. I had more passion in me. So even though I think I was working about the same hours, probably 40 to 50 hours a week, what I found is that my work changed. I started doing podcasts. I set times to make time to write a book. People are like, How do you write a book? You work full time, you've got kids, you got all this? Yeah, it mattered. And it happened. And it happened with ease. And it was quite delightful, actually.
So where am I now? I am going back to Cisco. I was with Cisco for two years. And they recently recruited me back and I'm happily going back. I loved working there. Going as a Strategic Sales Lead and Solution Evangelist, which puts me in that place of impact and fulfillment. I'm sitting down to write my second book. I am starting my own podcast soon. And I'm vacationing and enjoying my life and just kind of able to have more without doing so much. It's a weird place to be.
Andi Simon: But on the other side, nobody could tell you that. And while I do a lot of executive coaching, at the end of the day, we ask more questions, and we need help. Because if you can find the solution yourself, it's not a good solution. And if you're trying to do something someone else said we should do and imagining what those words mean, that means you have to be reflective, intentional, and willing to make a detour. Because we're on a journey or pathway, a ChangeMap.
Sometimes the detours come up and you don't really know why they're there. But it's okay to make a left turn to try, or a right turn to see what's over there and taste. As you're looking at your next book and the current book, what have you discovered that you can help the listener learn from, or are there some illustrations that you want them to remember? People remember stories. Is there a story other than you being on the bathroom floor, which is a great story. And the things you're thinking about next, some stories to share?
Becca Powers Vaughn: Well, one of the things is because I've been a corporate gal for 20 years, I really wanted to impact and explore burnout, but more so because that's really what happened. I ended up burnt out on the bathroom floor. So being an excavation artist and explorer, I wanted to understand what got me there. And I'm also a life coach. I had a Kundalini teacher so I've got some more hands. I do this and it's wanting to really kind of understand what's causing the Great Resignation. Why are people fed up? What's going on and all of that? So as I started serving people, this is a very interesting thing. I was like, Okay, what I understand about life coaching is that we overcompensate when we're trying to hide something. And so what is happening on an employee level that's causing this feeling of complete exhaustion? And what I came to understand is that I call it the unders in the overs, an employee first and they might not even be able to put their finger on it, but they're going to feel these unders.
This means that somewhere in the organization, they are feeling undervalued, underappreciated, underpaid, underrecognized. Think feelings like that. And when these feelings go unaddressed, it starts triggering our deepest wounds, which is, I don't matter, I'm not safe, I'm not worthy, I'm not valuable. And when those feelings are triggered, we go into overcompensation, which in a work environment looks like overextending, overcommitting, overworking, overstressing and overwhelming. Those types of things.
So that's really where I want to help people understand where this is coming from, because helping the individual understand it is really important. But I also want to help corporations understand it. I have been at Fortune 500s almost my entire career and I can say that they care. They just don't know how to do things. And so they're offering yoga classes and things that are very surface. But at the end of the day, if they knew their employees didn't feel valuable, they could do something to make them feel more valuable. So I know that was a longer answer, but I really geeked out on that day.
Andi Simon: But let's dig into that. Because if only they could actually make you feel like you mattered is what you said. And all of the tactical-practical surface stuff is there. It's always fascinating to me because the HR person works really hard to get that yoga class and nobody comes, or the Weight Watchers to arrive. And you know, "I thought that's what people wanted to do was lose weight." So their solution had nothing to do with the person's actual behavior. The disconnect in HR is fascinating.
But having said that, the company itself is the problem, not the human resource person. And the company doesn't understand that unless you spend time getting to know them, and show them that it matters that you're working here as an employee. That conversation is essential, not after the fact that you're ready to leave. You know, we work really hard on exit strategy and exit conversations. Why don't we do retention? Why don't we learn more about what your career is about? It's interesting.
I've been working with an accounting firm for five years now. And one of the suggestions I made after one of our leadership training sessions was, Have you had one-on-ones with these very important people? And the partner said, No. I said, Well do it. They want to be loved. That it isn't that they are making good money, they're not money motivated a bit. But at the end of the day, they work really, really hard during the tax season. And they don't need a party, they need someone to say thank you. They need someone to simply say, You really do matter to us, what matters to you, and how do I help you?
Sometimes they hear and sometimes they don't. Sometimes it resonates, and sometimes it doesn't. But unless you reach out, you have vulnerability there because people will find another place. They'll begin to think that all work is simply tactical and practical, and I never matter. And then I'll just hop around. What do you think?
Becca Powers Vaughn: I think you're really onto something as far as how you're understanding what's going on. I would say that even from a survey perspective, I've surveyed about 1000 people right now, and 88% feel undervalued, underappreciated. I set it so you had to have some combination, but at least to hit the 88% score. I had said it so that you have to at least get to know. And that means 88% of the workforce is experiencing at least two unders.
Andi Simon: My last thought is that people are living their emotions. And so if we stay on the tactical, practical, logical side, you're missing what matters to them. And humans want to hug. I mean, at the end of the day, they want to belong. They want to feel well. And the thing that you found was, I want to be harnessing my own interest. Do they want to be in charge? They want to feel they have some control, and that all of this has come out of the pandemic. Big time. I'm not sure of the message, I must confess, I work with too many CEOs of marketing companies and the guys don't quite get it. They're trying to figure it out. And I say that, because mostly guys are guys, but they don't quite understand that it isn't a position to hold. It's a life to live. And those are very different feelings.
We're almost approaching the end of our wonderful time together. And you've enjoyed yourself, I know I have as well. A couple of things you don't want the audience to forget, because they often remember the ending better than the beginning. But your story is great.
Becca Powers Vaughn: So coming right off of our conversation is, You matter. Number one, you matter. Number two, it's okay to prioritize yourself, especially as a woman. Consider yourself at least as much as you're considering other people, places and things. Those are two, do you want three?
Andi Simon: No, I'll add your third. And then yeah, I will expand your third. We had a program on self care. And it's not going right now but I'll bring it back. It's a 30-day challenge to take care of you. And it's an app, and I love the app. I just can't do it right this second. But I'm going to be bringing it back about when your podcast goes live. But I find that people feel guilty about taking care of themselves. And the other thing I learned is that the guys who sign on, sign off, but the women stay in and want to keep it going. So something is going on in this world of being a woman where it feels guilty to take care of yourself. You're the last on the to-do list. You don't work out because there's no time. And so we flip it around.
So the first thing you're going to do in the morning is, for you, what is that going to be? Take a walk, now sit quietly on the deck and have a cup of coffee. Take that time, it's okay. And the research is fascinating. You know, women CEOs of lots of companies say to me, Because I don't take care of myself, the stress levels rise. I said, Well, you know when you take care of yourself, the stress levels from the oxytocin and serotonin rise and cortisol drops. Your brain is telling you something. To your point, it hurts when you're not happy. Where can our listeners find your book?
Becca Powers Vaughn: You can find it on Amazon and just type in the Amazon search Harness Your Inner CEO and it will come right up. And it's under Becca Powers.
Andi Simon: We'll have that all in our podcast blog. I'm going to say goodbye to our great listeners and to Becca because we've had such a great conversation. My hunch is we'll be back and do this again when our next books come out. That's going to be a catalytic moment for her to get the next book done and my next book is going to come out. So we will all be on, talking about our books. My book is going to be about 100 Women who are trailblazers, transforming the world for women. And I do think this is a time for women to seize the moment and not waste a pandemic crisis because it's our time to lead.
Now, with that in mind, thank you all for coming. You know, you've launched us into the top 5% of podcasts globally. I'm honored! I will tell you it's a pleasure. As you discovered, I love doing podcasts and sharing them. And the only thing I will advertise on here is us. We are corporate anthropologists and we help companies and the people inside them change. And often you don't want to change so my job is to help you love change. Make it your friend. And you can, because as you listen to Becca, you don't want to be on the bathroom floor wondering what am I doing with my life? So how do you see, feel and think in new ways?
And as far as coaches, Becca is a life coach. I'm an executive coach, but we both try and help you see things through a fresh lens. My books,On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, are both on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and booksellers everywhere. AndRethink just won an award from Axiom as a 2022 Bronze Best Business Book in the women and business category, so thank you. It's really an honor and a privilege to have both of my books be award winners, which means I'm an award winner. I don't think I write to be an award winner, I write to help people see, feel and think in new ways. Reach me at info@Andisimon.com and come along for the ride. Let's have a good journey together. It's been such fun. Goodbye.
Hear how gratitude can change your life and your business
Michele Bailey and I had such a terrific interview discussing her own life’s journey and how to be a successful woman entrepreneur. She is the founder of The Blazing Group, a brand and culture agency born of her strategy-first approach to business, her flair for sharing stories, and her desire to enhance employee wellness while pursuing business goals. Now she has a new program to improve employee mentoring and wellness called My Big Idea® which accelerates business growth while addressing the challenges of balancing work and personal life. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
The power of gratitude can be life-changing
Michele Bailey was a driving force in bringing the first Women Presidents’ Organization (WPO) chapter to Canada and currently sits on the WPO board as its international representative. She is committed to supporting entrepreneurs in the underrepresented diverse and inclusion markets, and is also a successful author. Her new book, The Currency of Gratitude, published in 2021 by ForbesBooks, focuses on the power of gratitude. On this we agree. Together we offer exceptional advice for women in business: focus on the power of the person, and gratitude is a gift that keeps giving. Want to connect with Michele? Reach out on Linkedin, Twitter, Facebook and either of her websites: My Big Idea or Blazing.
Need more gratitude in your life and your business? Start here:
- Blog: Time to Add Gratitude to Your Life—And Your Company's Culture
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Thanks for joining us today. My job, as you know, is to be your host and your guide. What I want to do is get you off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways so that you can change. So I have with me today a wonderful woman, Michele Bailey from Canada. Michele and I met through the Women Business Collaborative, an organization we're both extremely involved with and very fond of, all of which is there to help women become the best that they can be. What I'd like to do today, though, is let Michele tell you a little bit about herself after I introduce her to all of you because her bio is beautiful. And I don't want her to shortchange you because it's really exciting.
She's the founder of The Blazing Crew which is a brand and culture agency born out of her strategy-first approach to business. She has a flair for sharing stories, and a desire to enhance employee wellness while pursuing business goals. This is sort of interesting because as you listen to her today, you'll know that business isn't about selling things or making things, it's about people things. And the wellness and well-being of your people and their belonging is not to be underestimated. It is the differentiator that can take you and separate you from the rest. And she's shaking her head for those who are listening. And she's saying yes.
Her advertising agency, Blazing, is turning branding inside out. Her My Big Idea and Employee Mentoring and Wellness Program is designed to propel individuals forward in their quest for personal and professional success. My Big Idea is a really cool one so it's delivered virtually or in person. And it's really uniquely designed for business owners, leaders and employees to address the challenges of work and personal life. And we'll talk today about that work-life balance, who is in the pursuit of what I've never understood.
I'm an anthropologist, and I look at our society, and I can't quite figure out why life and work are different. So work life and life work. I mean, this is all kind of a blend of being a professional. Since the time my kids were three weeks old, I knew that there was a blend, it wasn't either or, there was together. It was who we were. So the difference and the balancing is a challenge, even for the guys.
Michele is on a quest to get her clients to take one important step further, to make true gratitude integral to the way business is done. True gratitude, as you're listening or watching, we're going to talk a lot about it because gratitude is not inconsequential, it is essential to our well-being. So her passion for gratitude is contagious. And I think you're going to capture that. She has a new book out, and I'm so delighted to share it with you. It's called The Currency of Gratitude and was just published. And it offers a moving and straightforward guide to enabling business growth using gratitude as your currency, and you're gonna say, But I think gratitude is not inconsequential.
Now Michele will tell you, she's a biracial woman and has faced her share of challenges. Her boundless energy and vision have earned her international recognition as a champion of women in business. She's a driving force bringing the first Women Presidents Organization chapter, the WPO, to Canada, and she sits on the WPO board as its international representative. I think you know enough about Michele to know that you want to listen carefully, and enjoy our time together. I shall thank you for joining me today.
Michele Bailey: Andi, I'm so delighted to be here.
Andi Simon: Well tell the listener who is Michele because you've had a journey. I can't capture it reading your bio as much as I have enjoyed it. So give us a little bit about your background.
Michele Bailey: Thank you, Andi. First of all, I want to start by saying that I have lived in multiple states in different countries my whole life. It wasn't until I turned 18 that I landed in Canada with going to school and I have stayed here. So I'm a dual citizen. I'm an American, as well as a Canadian. I have lived in New Hampshire, Vermont, New York City, Michigan, and the island of Haiti. So I have quite a varied background. And I've experienced many cultures which have allowed me to be the woman I am today.
And through this all, Andi, we're talking about gratitude. I have to tell you, because I never stayed anywhere long, it was really hard to make friends because people knew that I'd be moving and they didn't want to waste time on people that aren’t going to be hanging around. So at an early age, I made gratitude my core. I learned to embrace each and every relationship that was put in front of me, whether it be for a season or a lifetime, because people mean everything to me. This fast forwards us to being in Toronto today. So to take a step back, I have an agency called Blazing. You might not know who we are, but you will certainly have heard of the clients that we have done work for the last 27 years. And to be a woman in this industry for that long is really almost unheard of because it's a dog-eat-dog world. It's a burn-and-churn business. People usually don't last longer than 18 or 24 months because you burn them out. However, Blazing has stood the test of time. And my average tenured employee is 11 years.
Andi Simon: Wow. In today's world, that is amazing.
Michele Bailey: And Andi, that is actually why people kept saying to me, how do you hold on to people in an industry that is just soburn-and-churn for the length of time that you do. And I will tell you, it's a few things. It's about creating an awesome culture at work. So people feel connected. They want to love and they watch each other's backs. That's the first and most important thing.
It's also about appreciating and recognizing the contributions they bring, both as team members and as individuals, also very important. So I didn't know that Blazing was so special until people started saying to me, You don't lose your people. And all the people you get are through word of mouth. You don't have to use headhunters or you don't have to use hiring people. I said, No, it's all word of mouth. So that's what I was doing at Blazing. When people were asking me what I do differently, I thought, I do something differently than most people I know. I do things like setting up my goals, both personally and professionally every year. I am very clear with what I need to do, as a business owner, as a leader, as a mother, and as a friend. So what I do is, I actually broke down my life into nine categories. And this is what led to the evolution and creation of My Big Idea.
My Big Idea helps people come up with their big idea. You can have work-life integration and blend. So Andi, I start every year by sitting down and answering 13 questions under reflection. What worked and what didn't work this past year. And because it's my homework for myself, I'm dead honest. Because if I'm not dead honest, I can't change, improve, or discard things that haven't been working for me. So I talk about things like, what was my biggest challenge? What was my biggest success? Who inspired me? And why? What do I need to let go of? Who do I need to let go of? Who do I need to allow in my life? Questions like that.
So I start with reflection, then I go into personal goals. And I again have 10 questions I'm asking myself, and then I have a section in my workbook where I have to list at least one, but not more than three, personal goals. And it has to be about me, not my kids, not my family, it's got to be about me. I do the same for professional goals. I ask myself what I want to accomplish this year. Then I go into health and wellness goals. I go into finance and wealth goals. Then I go into relationship goals.
Andi, when I created relationship goals, I never knew how impactful this would be. I actually asked people to answer the questions on relationship goals but did not set a goal. I need you to do an exercise called creating your support network. And in this exercise, I have people with professional careers, name a mentor or mentee, friends, family, and emotional support. I have a whole little grid and I start putting people's names in there. And then I look at that grid and I go through it. I have a little marker with two different colored markers, and I mark who gives me positive energy, who gives me negative energy and whose energy is neutral. So once I've identified and looked at my support network, then I go back and set my relationship goal for the year. And sometimes it gets rid of or creates strict boundaries around people who don't always want or wish the best for me. It's about keeping it real.
Then I go into my refueling section. What do I need to do for myself to be the best version of me for me and everyone around me? And then I always end with my gratitude goals. I have a list and I just write people's names down. I write down the relationship to me, and what I want to thank them for. And in those relationships, aside from the gratitude goals, what I do is, I have six questions that if I answer them honestly, to the person I want to thank, I will change my relationship with them. The questions go something like this: You came into my life…, you bring me joy by..., you inspire me because..., I hope to add to our journey together..., and I want to thank you for….
I put those down, and then answer them in under five minutes. And that has impacted my relationships, both personally and professionally, like nothing else I've ever experienced. So Andi, this is why I now have The Currency of Gratitude, my book, by ForbesBooks. ForbesBooks came to me and they said, We hear you've got a different spin on gratitude. And I said, I do. And I said, please understand that I think gratitude journals are so important. And I think looking at each day, and seeing the three things you need to be most grateful for, is also very important. But I'm on a quest to teach people that if you push gratitude outside of yourself, you will have much bigger, better, stronger and sticky relationships with people in your life. So ForbesBooks said, Could you write a book about 50,000 words? I said, No, I could write in 30,000 words on how gratitude has changed my life and I hope to teach other people how gratitude can change your life.
Andi Simon: So this is a journey you've been on. I'm fascinated with each step along the way. And as you're thinking about it, I'm just curious whether this has come from any kind of catalytic moment, aha moment. You know, when we were talking in advance, I said, The pressure to write a book comes from all kinds of places. Was there a particular thing that became other than ForbesBooks coming to you and saying, Would you write a book?
Michele Bailey: And I didn't think it was time to tell the story. And I didn't even understand that gratitude was my brand. It was my Managing Partner, Eric Marshall, who showed me that gratitude was my brand. And it started because someone came and said, We want you to open a women's conference up in Toronto. There'll be hundreds of women there. We want you on stage to kick it off by talking about spending five minutes talking about a passion project, something you're passionate about. We want the audience to feel your passion.
So I went to the office and I said to Eric, I'm going to kick off this conference. And I'm going to talk about work-life blend and integration through My Big Idea and how if you focus on those nine areas of your life, you will get clearer, and you will have a blend that works for you. So he looked at me and said, You're going to talk about My Big Idea. Yeah, that's your five minute passion. I said, absolutely. He said, I don't think so. I looked him and said, You don't think so? He said, Passion is what makes you come alive. He said, Gratitude is your passion. And he walked out of the room. I'm like, Who's he to tell me what my passion is?
So you know what? I got up there. And he and I talked about gratitude. And when you do it from a source of abundance, when you have gratitude as your guiding north star, the world presents opportunities to you that you aren't even aware of.
Andi Simon: So, Michele, for those who sign a gratitude diary, it's not the three things that you're grateful for each day. It’s not sending a gratitude note. It's something different. Talk to us before we talk about the book. What is it that you found in the word gratitude that can flush it out for us, give it a personality beyond them. The tactical practical that we hear because this sounds like a life strategy, something that gives you richness beyond anything in particular, but something bigger and richer. Am I hearing you correctly?
Michelle Bailey: Yes, and you are. For me, gratitude is about energy. Think of a ball of light. And when you give that ball of light to someone else, gratitude shows up in so many ways. You are giving energy to another person, and allowing them to receive something that you see in them. Too often, we are all so busy, we're racing. We just need to get through the next thing. When you have gratitude as an anchor, it allows magic to appear. And I'll give you a very short little story.
Over the last two years, as you know, a lot of people have lost their jobs or resigned from their jobs, etc. There's a woman that I know in banking. I had lost touch with her for years, but I heard she had lost her job. And I didn't think anything of it. We'd lost touch. I got a call from her husband. How he found my number, my name, I don't know. And he called me up and he said, Michele, my wife is in a really bad way. Could you please reach out to her because she's not getting off the couch. And it's been weeks.
I'll be honest, I hung up that phone, I thought, I have no time for this. And I thought to myself, a man looked for my number. He doesn't know me, himself, by calling me and saying that his wife needs help. I know she hasn't been in touch, please help her. So I reached out to her. And I didn't tell her her husband called me. I reached out and I suggested we go for a walk. She came up; I live in the country. She came out and we walked and I let silence do the lifting and I just listened. That was my act of gratitude. I just listened to her hurt, her overwhelmingness of being let go. Not knowing, I just listened. And I invited her back two weeks later. And what I did when we went on the walk is I told her all the wonderful things I saw in her, both personally and professionally in the 10 years I had known her, even though we had lost contact, and I reminded her that she is special. And there's someone out there, a corporation that's going to see that. Silence, listening, observing, and just being present with to get this woman back in a good space. And she's got a great job now. Something as simple as that, that's an act of gratitude.
Andi Simon: I love it. I love it. Because anyone listening can do that. It's not like you need to go take it. But you do need to pause for a moment and think about how you can help somebody. Now I'm going to pause for a moment.
So Michele has told us an amazing story that sort of has been captured now in her book. And what I'd like her to do is talk about the different chapters in the book so that this gratitude currency can come alive, even more than just the gift that she gave this lovely lady who needed a hand, but also so you can begin to hear about what gratitude can become for you, as you're dealing with all of the transformation coming out of the pandemic. And who knows whether we'll be coming back into another one. Michele, share with us the contents inside your book, please.
Michele Bailey: Absolutely Andi. I am pleased to share that. So I'm showing people how, Chapter One, placing gratitude at the center of your personal brand changes relationships. And again, I talk about those questions I teach people to answer. Also about creating brand ambassadors. That's Chapter Two. Blazing has created brand ambassadors. That's why I never have to advertise for jobs. People come to me through word of mouth because of brand ambassadors. I talk about gratitude in winning business. I do not take winning business for granted. And I'm not one to win business and start going to the next piece of business. I want to win business to make sure it stays and when I lose business, and I do, I continue keeping in touch and I go back and win more business then I've lost.
Chapter Four, gratitude as a means of retaining clients and customers. Almost all of Blazing business is grown through referrals. That's about retaining clients and customers. Chapter Five is about gratitude and self care. If we can't be grateful to ourselves..first big act of gratitude: be grateful and kind to yourself. Then I wrote about gratitude during times of crisis. I held back on the publishing of this book. Forbes was not too happy, because I saw gratitude unfolding during the pandemic. I needed to talk about how people show up in cooperation for other people in times of crisis.
And then my last chapter is about making gratitude a habit. I have a daily planner, it's called The My Big Idea planner. And every week at a glance, I have to write about things to do personally, things to do professionally, what I need to reflect on or who I need to reflect on, and who I need to think about. As I look at my planner, right now, I see that there's five gratitude cards that I need to put out. As far as reflection, there's two people that I need to reach out to, because they need a little extra something from someone. And I've chosen that this is the week I'm going to reach out to them. So that's how I make it a habit. And it becomes a habit. Andi, it's every Sunday night, five minutes for me to set up my week so I know what I need to do.
Andi Simon: Now, as you're thinking about this, think about it as if you're the audience listening in. You greatly created a personal strategy for your life. And you created the action steps to make that come alive. And you're telling us a story about how it's transformed. We’d love to know a little more about the transformation, because you didn't start doing this. This has come along in your life journey where you began to see how to build those relationships in particular ways. You know, do you have an insight in terms of who Michele is now versus where you might have been, as you were starting through all of this. Was Blazing a different kind of company before it began to have that epiphany that this was what matters?
Michele Bailey: Actually, Blazing was a different company. I was focused on culture, gratitude. That was always my focus. It was all about creating an awesome culture, and to be a company where I wanted to work, because I had two previous employers, and I dreaded Mondays. So it showed me what I wanted to create. So that's creating a winning culture. I think it was about 10 years ago, when my dad died, who was my mentor. My dad was everything to me. He also lived with us, and he worked at Blazing. So when he died, I was so busy taking care of my immediate family, and then my brothers and their families all throughout the US, and then I went back to the office to take care of my team.
We've been working with Dr. Fritz for years and years. Nobody was coping well with his death. For me, for three weeks I tried to get everything and everyone settled. And then I realized that I hadn't grieved, breathed this immense loss in my life. So I took a backpack and I went down to Costa Rica by myself for two weeks and off the grid, no electronics. I brought a pen and paper. I brought paints. I brought poems to read and I hiked in the rainforests of Costa Rica every day. It was only my last day there, when I sat down and I wrote a letter to my father that I began to heal. So on that plane ride home, I sat on the plane, and I made a list of all the people in my life that I needed to thank. And that's what transformed to understanding that gratitude expressed to people will really show them the impact they have on your life and tell them when they're alive. So you don't have to write a letter like I did to my dad.
Andi Simon: But as you known, the gift of giving is as much a gift to ourselves as it is to somebody else, and that bond, just then, you need it. Unfortunately, that catalyst was to realize it. But what a blessing that it came to you at the right time to begin to grow to the next woman who you were becoming.
Michele Bailey: It was. My father gave me a great gift. And I didn't realize how big it was. But now that I know that gift was given to me, I'm trying to teach it. others.
Andi Simon: Well, it's so exciting. But we are just about ready to wrap up this beautiful podcast together. And I've so enjoyed talking with you. A couple of things you don't want the listener to forget?
Michele Bailey: I want all the listeners to know that your personal and professional life are never going to be balanced. So make it integrated and blended together first. The second thing is, it takes five minutes, no more than five minutes, to answer those questions I put at the beginning, and change a relationship with someone who means the world to you. Know they can't read your mind. And the third thing is, you are always teaching people how to treat you. Peggy Gras, my mentor, has always told me that you are teaching people how to treat you. So get treated the way you want.
Andi Simon: This is such an interesting, important, wonderful, I don't know the right adjective. My words are always empty when they don't really capture the beauty of your story and the mission that you're on to help the world become a much better place. I think it's a global mission at a time when we need it a lot. It's a very, very difficult time. And one was like gratitude, the relationships, the personal presence that Michele was talking about. Carefully listen to this podcast a second time and begin to think about it and even buy her book. It's a great book to begin to understand how giving gratitude is not about one way, it's about two ways and as you give, you receive, but also about how you build that life that's worth living. And you might wonder about how to blend it, or how to balance it. But at the end of the day, life and work are together. We need to live and we need to have work, so somehow we have to pull it all into place so that our families and friends and those around us all thrive. So this is a great time. Do you want to put up that book one more time? What is the name of it? And how can they buy it.
Michele Bailey: The Currency of Gratitude by Michele Bailey. You can buy it on Amazon or wherever business books are sold. ForbesBooks is the publisher.
Andi Simon: And ForbesBooks is very happy to promote that. So this is a great time. Let me say goodbye to all of you who come with such attention and send me great emails, info@andisimon.com. Send them along and I love your ideas. And I love the people you want me to interview. It's sharing at its best. Now my book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, won the bronze Best Business Book for 2022 in the Women in Business category by Axiom. And so I'm honored. And my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, won the same award but in a different category in 2017. So writing books is a challenge. And then when it works, it's so exciting. So Michele, thank you for coming today. And for all our listeners, thank you for coming. I'll see you soon. Take care now. Bye bye.
Hear how to transform your company by telling your story
Suppose you have a great company with fantastic talent. Could speaking become a critical part of your marketing and business development strategy? Perhaps your team could tell your story, explain and enhance the value of your solutions, through the speaker circuit. Although it was difficult to do in-person speaking during the last two years of the pandemic, those times are fading into the background (as we all hope they do) and speaking has emerged once again as a very vital and viable way to tell your story. And that is what speaking is all about — crafting and sharing the right stories to propel your business forward through the voices of your talented leadership. Listen to Steve Markman tell you how he helps businesses do just that. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Marketing your company and your brand through speaking engagements
As the founder of Steve Markman Speaker Management, a public speaking specialty firm, Steve excels at providing clients with multifaceted services worldwide with successful results. Whether identifying outstanding speakers for your next meeting or developing an executive visibility speaker program for your organization’s leadership, he and his team are committed to helping you accomplish your objectives. Steve writes and lectures frequently, and you can connect with him on LinkedIn, Twitter and his website Markman Speaker Management, or send him an email at smarkman@markmanspeaker.com.
These 3 podcasts offer more insights about the power of telling your story:
- Podcast: Richard Medcalf—How To Amplify Your Story To Achieve Great Results
- Podcast: Karen Dietz—Your Story Is Your Secret to Amazing Success
- Podcast: Sarah Wilson—See How Great PR Can Build A Better Story For YOU
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. And as you know, my job is to be your guide and your host and help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. We never want you to be stuck or stalled. Instead, we want you to soar. But sometimes you need to have new ideas and a new way of seeing things. And in these fast changing times, that's been particularly important.
So today, I have with me a wonderful gentleman, Steve Markman. And Steve is a specialist in helping people understand the place of speaking and speeches in your business, and in your own personal career, perhaps. Let me tell you a little bit about him. And then I'll have him tell you about his journey and what he does today. Steve Markman has more than 30 years of experience in the conference and speaker field, but he's crafted it in a particular way. And that's what I'm excited about sharing with you.
Since founding Markman Speaker Management in 1994, Steve has secured speaking engagements for over 200 firms globally. So think of it backwards. It's your firm and you're using speaking as part of a communications narrative. That's what's so important. He's worked with clients in all industries and professions, including executives, principals, consultants, coaches, lawyers, you name it, Steve's helped them. And he's worked with IBM Global Services, Pay Pal, Subaru Bank of America. They all understood something important about helping their talent talk to others about what it was they were doing. And that narrative became very powerful. So Steve, thank you for joining me today.
Steve Markman: Great to be here, Andi. Thanks for having me.
Andi Simon: Now, as you and I were talking, there's a lot to Steve Markman’s journey. Share it with our listeners so they know who you are and then we'll talk about all the things you do.
Steve Markman: Sure, happy and thank you. So I have been, as Andi said, in the conference and speaker business, if you will, for close to 35 years now. I started out in terms of my career, working for Forbes magazine, which came full circle. Last week they interviewed me for an article in Forbes and it was kind of fun, because that's where I started my career. So it's always been sort of research related. And then I got into human resources, research and working for a consulting firm. And that led me to the Conference Board in New York, which is a very large, not for profit organization that services the Fortune 1000, basically through research reports and conferences, and I was on the research side of the business and writing articles and so forth, and doing a lot of research in HR, and strategy.
And then, unfortunately, one of my colleagues took ill; he wound up being fine, but for a few months, he was going to be out of the office. So my boss came into my office and said, You are now in charge of the conferences because that's what this guy was doing for the HR conferences. So that started a career in conferences, and I found that I really enjoyed doing them. I really enjoyed creating content from a blank piece of paper and the whole idea of educating people in a way that is similar to a teacher, but educating a wide swath of companies and their executives so that they can go back and hear about or talk about the best practices that they heard about at the event. And then they can apply it to their companies, and their companies can grow and so forth. And I felt like I was doing something good in that endeavor. So that was a long time ago. I enjoyed working for them.
I came up to Boston to work for the company that used to be the producer of what was called Comdex. Comdex at its peak had 200,000 attendees in one show; it was for the computer trade show industry. Many of your listeners I'm sure have been there. It was a four headed monster. There were 25 hotels being taken over and several convention halls and I was in charge of their conferences, specifically having a couple of face-to-face's with the Las Vegas fire department because too many people were there. It was in Las Vegas every year. It was quite a great experience and then I went to a couple other companies.
Then in 1994, I started my own business 28 years ago. I was doing a conference for Clemson University. I had set up their conference division, and the sponsor of one of the events of the business transformation conference was IBM. And IBM came to me there, the liaison I was working with, and said, You know, we need more speaking engagements. So we don't care that we don't want to get paid, it's not a paid gig, we just want the exposure because they were called IBM Consulting at the time, maybe $200 or $300 million in revenue. And they wanted more exposure because people thought of them as a hardware company. And that's what speaking does.
Speaking gives an opportunity to executives and/or owners of small companies, whatever the size may be, all the way up to Fortune 500 companies. It gives them an opportunity, without doing a sales pitch, to impart a message that shows that they are subject matter experts. And so by definition, after someone does a non-sales but good objective speech, someone's going to look up and say, Oh, I didn't know that IBM Consulting actually doesn't just sell hardware and software, that they do business transformation and strategy consulting and all that stuff, which at the time nobody knew they did that. So yeah, now it's a $30 billion division of IBM called IBM Global Services. I am not necessarily going to take credit for that rise in revenue, but a little bit, just a little bit. And it was the start of a shift from me creating the conferences and the content and recruiting speakers, to representing companies on the speaker side so that I can find them speaking engagements.
I had so many years of reviewing and reading presentation proposals that the transition to now write them for my clients was fairly easy. And it turns out, a third of my clients over the years have been PR firms, because PR firms also do what I do, which is to find these speaking engagements, but many of them don't have the resources or they don't have the people with the experience in this sort of niche business. And so they partner with me to help their clients get speaking engagements. So that was a long answer to a short question of how I got to where I am. It's been a nice ride.
Andi Simon: It has been. For me, I've been in business 20 years. And before that, I spent 20 years in executive roles in companies. And speaking was always a piece of what I did. As an anthropologist, it gave me a way of telling people how a little anthropology could help their business grow. But during the pandemic, it was all virtual. And I actually did a whole lot virtually, which was very exciting. But during this period, how did companies change how they use speaking? Or did they change? And how can you give our listeners and our audience a little context as we're coming out of this pandemic? Because I think the times are important and the context matters. What do you see?
Steve Markman: Absolutely. And I do have a close lens on the industry, following it fairly closely. And before I specifically answer that question, I want to also mention that what we're going to be talking about today are the unpaid speaking engagements that companies use to create visibility, build awareness, sometimes generate specific leads, mostly also for all companies. It's a strategy for thought leadership. But then there's a whole separate sector within the speaking industry, as you know, that is paid speaking. And in the context of that, those paid speakers are typically keynote speakers and I have a separate division that handles those kinds of folks.
But when the pandemic hit, as I segue into answering your question, when the pandemic hit, I mean, life as we knew it stopped on a dime. So for three months, nobody did anything. It didn't matter what industry you're in, but it particularly hit the conference and meeting industry hard. And by the domino effect, the hotel and hospitality industry as well, because the speakers, the conferences went away. And so for a few months nothing happens, and then conferences realize, especially association conferences, they rely on meetings as a very large part of their revenue for attendees and sponsors. And so what they learned very quickly was the Zoom world. And so everything that was planned for the fall and the rest of the year that was in-person had to shift. Literally, the word pivot became, I think, the most used word. So they pivoted to virtual, another new word. Before we just called it online.
Now, it's a virtual event and everything went virtual. That was from April til the summer of 2020. Everything was virtual only, then things started to get a little bit better. And the hybrid came into existence where people started to organize and started to have more events and conferences in person, as the number of COVID cases started to go down a bit. But there were still a ton of people who were still afraid to go anywhere. And so they might have a small crowd in-person, but most of it was online as a virtual. So that was what they called a hybrid.
Then 2021 came, and everybody started getting more optimistic that there were more things that were going to be in person, and then Omicron came. So it's like a roller coaster up and down. So where we are now is that with Omicron passing, but variants still out there and ready to pounce on us, we don't know what's going to happen. Things may happen, great, they may not. And so organizations are realizing that they need to be prepared for anything. But most of the events for the rest of this year, starting maybe February or March, a couple of months ago, through the end of the year, and through the first quarter of next year are pretty much all either in person or hybrid. There are still some events that are only virtual, they tend to be shorter, not like full fledged conferences, like maybe a one-hour or a 90-minute webinar.
But I have to tell you, Andi, what's interesting is the paid speakers, they had to cut their pay. Now they're back to almost full pay because it's back in person. But the unpaid speakers, which represent 90% of all speakers, and a lot of people don't realize that what happens is, these associations and companies that put on conferences, if they paid all these speakers, they would quickly go out of business. So they pay for the keynote, or they put aside a budget for some subject matter expert, and then everybody else, all the solo presenters or the breakout sessions, the panelists, nobody gets paid to speak, they don't even get their travel paid. A lot of people don't realize that but it's what I call future income. They're not getting a check to speak but they may be going to get some business, more customers and more clients as a result of speaking, which I believe they typically do.
But what was interesting, what happened was, when the pandemic hit, and everything went mostly virtual or all virtual, I actually think there were more speaking engagements then there were pre-pandemic. And the reason is because having no ability to have an in-person conference, there was no other way for an association to reach out to their members and prospects and constituents. So the best way to do it was the only way which was virtually. So all of a sudden, before, maybe they did one or two webinars a year, now they're having monthly meetings, and even on a national basis, because it was easy. You could be anywhere in the US or in the world and still be able to speak into your black box 20 inches wide and whatever tall and you didn't have to leave your office or your living room or your home office. And so they needed more speakers for these events. Many of them were networking, but many of them were part of a company that needed a speaker. And so I was able to provide a lot of these organizations with the speakers, even more so than I was before because of the need.
And so I think that it won't go away. The virtual is here to stay. The hybrids will be here to stay. The only-in-person I don't think is going to be there anymore, and there will always be some piece of a larger event that will be virtual, because there's always going to be some small number of people who don't want to travel, depending on what's going on in their area and COVID. And so it's going to be a different industry as it's evolving. But I think that it's coming out on this other end, at least for now, stronger than before because there are more ways to reach people.
Andi Simon: Well, I was at one virtual conference in Amsterdam, I didn't have to leave home to get there. And they had 25,000 people attend. You can't get to people like that if you don't. It's interesting as I'm listening to you, because I had about 35 workshops or speaking engagements this year, virtually all virtual. And it allows me to do a lot more. One week I was in Idaho, I love Vancouver, and Delaware, without going anywhere. So there's a lot to be said for this and sort of interesting things you want to do. Oh and tell our audience to think about speaking. Because I do think there's something that businesses need to pay attention to about why they are taking their subject matter experts, using them out in the market, they may already know it, but you're so good at that. How do you help companies use speaking as a way to build credibility narratives and market themselves for lead generation business creation? Your thoughts?
Steve Markman: Sure, well, I feel that it is a proven way for companies to gain visibility. And usually companies, when they come to me, they've already thought about it and they realize that it's an important aspect. When I meet somebody at a networking event, or whatever, and they haven't really thought about it, but they thought, Well, they don't really have a good spokesperson. I explain to them that you don't have to be the best speaker in the world to get to be a speaker at a conference because first and foremost, and having been conference director, I know what the shorter criteria is, the first criterion is to have content, right? Content is king. And it always will be. So while they want somebody that isn't going to put anybody in the front row to sleep, at the same time, the most important element is having content that is going to create interest in people learning about a certain aspect of whatever their role is. It could be human resources, IT strategy, marketing, whatever their role in a company is or if they're a consultant with their own company. They want to impart that they have knowledge.
And so what I tell them is, focus more on the content, don't worry about the speaking part. That is important, but it's like a distant number two, and you could always talk to somebody that teaches people presentation skills, not something that I do. But there's so many people that do that. And you know, talking about being able to have virtual, that's a whole 'nother set of needs of skills, and you have to know where to look in the camera and where to position yourself and you're usually sitting before you are standing. So it's a set of other things that people need to know.
But the thing that I also impress on companies is to really think through, Who do you want to talk to?, and that is something that is really crucial. It's, What do you want to say, which is the content I just mentioned, but it's also the Who. So, you know, if I have the vice president of HR for a medium sized company, they have no interest in speaking to a chamber of commerce made up of small companies in a small town, but a Chamber of Commerce in Boston, where I'm based, for example, which is a huge chamber that covers the entire area, then it might be worthwhile for them or the national conference of the Society for Human Resource Management, for example. So who to talk to and how to target your audience so that it is not just obvious...like, here's who we sell to, because you're not doing any selling. You're talking to people about what you know about in a way that's not a sales pitch. And if they could recommend you when they go back to the office or say, I heard somebody from such and such company speak, say Andi Simon speak, we ought to bring her in to talk to her. That kind of thing. That's really important. So it could be the recommenders that a lot of companies don't think about when they decide who they want to target as people being in the audience.
Andi Simon: It's interesting because there are all kinds of important ways to tell our narratives to the right audience. We need to be strategic about it and then we need to figure out how to help them do it when you're working with companies. That's the core of your business. You know, you told me a little bit about the process you go through to help them identify the topic, the content for people, and so forth. It's not inconsequential that they understand what Steve Markman brings to the conversation. You can share a little bit more about what you do when you get inside a company, and how you help them begin to use this as a way of telling their story.
Steve Markman: Yeah, so one of the things that I help them with on the content side is, they say, Well, we can talk about anything. Then I try to explain to them, that's like saying, We can't talk about anything. So part of what I educate them, whether I do the work myself, or whether I teach them how to do it, I have two different ways to do that. Either way, they need to understand the process. And the process truly is a process. It is not somebody making a phone call to the conference producer and saying, You know, I'm available to speak at your conference in the fall and I have 30 years of experience. It's not that easy. So there's a process of submitting proposals, and I help them understand what that process is. It could be a formal call for speakers, from doing all your years of speaking. And that's really an application. You have to spend a couple of hours sometimes creating the answers to their questions, and then you submit it.
And then there's a more informal process where you develop a relationship with the person who is the head of conferences for the organization, whether it's a local, regional and national or even international event. And they say, send me your information. And the two most important things that I work with clients to develop and I tell them upfront, there's going to be some work on-site. Even if I do all the work, they have to be committed to wanting to do this, this couple of commitments. One is the time to get out and speak. Because they have to develop a speech and then they have to go, if they're going to travel and it's not virtual, they need to develop that time.
The other thing is, they need to be able to create the core of what is, in effect, marketing themselves, or if I'm doing it for them, for me to represent them. And that is, what are they going to talk about in two paragraphs? One paragraph, setting the stage; one paragraph describing what they're going to talk about. In three or four bullets at the end that are takeaways, what is the audience going to learn after they leave that session. And that's really important.
I sometimes spend weeks with the client, getting them to develop something that isn't the same old, same old, because it's very competitive. Even though there's the old adage that people are afraid of speaking, you will be surprised how many people want to speak. So there might be 30 openings at a conference, and they're gonna get 300 proposals, easily. So you need to rise above the noise and stand out in some way. And that's what I help clients do through writing a really solid presentation description, and it could be five of them. It doesn't have to be one topic. There could be five topics. I've worked with some big law firms that have multiple practices, and they each have their own set of topics. And then the bio has to be well-written and focused on sending it to a conference organizer, not someone who they're trying to get as a customer or client. So you need to focus on speaking experience, if you have that in that bio. So it's what I call a speaker bio differentiated from the regular bio.
Andi Simon: I think your insights are extremely important for the audience and as I'm listening, I'm saying yes because it's as if that speaker is a product to sell. And they need to understand that they are identifying themselves as a good representative of the story they want to share. And, those takeaways are inconsequential because that's what the buyer wants to know. It's really going to inspire the audience to do something. But what I'd really like you to do is to think through two or three things you want the audience to remember as we are wrapping up here. And then you can remind them where they can reach you because I think what you offer is extremely important today.
Steve Markman: The first and foremost, I didn't actually mention it, but it's something that I always like to have people take away. And that is, how hard it is to get a speaking engagement. And I mentioned all the competition because everybody wants to speak but it is difficult. I tell my clients, and I'd like to tell your audience to think about this too, that in a way it's like a salesperson trying to sell something. And everybody says, You must be good at accepting rejection. So what I tell my clients, diplomatically of course, is, Don't let your ego get in the way. Because you could be a great speaker and have a lot to say and be very informative, but so do a lot of other people. And so unless you've ridden up Mount Everest backwards on a donkey, you need to take a step back.
So people need to understand that it's not easy, but at the same time, persistence, persistence, persistence, because you may not get into an event the first year, but now you've developed a relationship with the organizer and they know who you are. And the second time, well, maybe the second event in that year you're in. So don't give up. Persevere, it can happen if you have the right tools and the right content.
The second thing is to realize that it is synergistic with other elements of marketing. So if you're using this for thought leadership, you do a presentation and you can write out a white paper based on the presentation. Or the reverse can be true. You can have a white paper and you can convert it into a presentation. So there's a lot of things. It's an element of marketing. You can post it on social media, and now it's a social media element. There are a lot of shelf life things that can happen once somebody speaks. And so keep that in mind that it's not a means to an end, and it doesn't end at the talk. You can keep it alive and keep it in your arsenal as something that can help you build visibility.
Andi Simon: They know the multiplier effect is to repurpose, repurpose, repurpose, you're also repurposing yourself. It isn't just the job you're doing but a way of beginning to tell that story, and people at the end of the day wanting to buy the story. And they really want to know who it is that is representative of that company. And it doesn't matter whether it's Subaru or IBM or your law firm. So Steve Markman has really given us a whole lot of insights today. Steve, if people want to reach you, where can they reach you?
Steve Markman: Sure. So the best way is my website, which is Markmanspeaker.com. My company again is Markman Speaker Management LLC. I'm based in the Boston area, and have international outreach. So regardless of where you are, I've got clients in Europe and in Asia and I'm happy to talk to anybody about the world of speaking. And on my website, you can find my phone numbers as well as my email address. I'm also on LinkedIn and we'd love to link in with anybody and connect with someone there.
Andi Simon: Information will of course be on our blog post after this podcast goes live. So thank you for joining me today. Let me wrap up with our guests who come to watch and listen. And Steve Markman, it has been a terrific opportunity for us to think about the emerging or reemerging world of speaking as the pandemic subsides, until it comes back again. We don't know. But for myself, I love listening to Steve because he reminds us that speaking for a company isn't an afterthought. It's not just for thought leaders, it's for the company to tell its story in so many different ways to the right audiences. So give some thought to how a Steve relationship could help you and your company expand now back into the world in different ways.
The times are changing so quickly. It's important for you to see, feel and think about yourself and your speaking opportunities for your company in a very different fashion. Thanks for coming because we love to share with you big ideas, and we love to help you see and feel in new ways. Don't forget, you can reach us at info@Andisimon.com. And you can get my books on Amazon. My new book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, just received an award. It's a bronze Best Business Book Award for 2022 in the women in business category. And I thank Axiom for the pleasure of recognizing that. So thank you all. It's been a pleasure serving you today. Thanks for entertaining us Steve. It's been fun. Bye bye.
Hear how to really think about the conversations you're having What if you could see the world through a fresh lens? In today’s podcast, I interview Rose Fass, an author, a business executive, and an inspiration to me and to you. Rose has written one book and is on her way with her next one. Her first book, The Chocolate Conversation, focuses on how our conversations become who we are, what we hear, and how we build relationships. Great conversations help us craft clear messages, build a shared worldview, uncover concerns and uncertainties, and help you and others move forward together. As you listen to Rose and her own personal journey, you are going to rethink your own conversations, paying attention to both what you say and what others reflect on your thoughts. Listen in because there is so much to learn! Watch and listen to our conversation here
Learning the lesson of resilience from a dandelion
Rose tells the story of being a nine-year-old girl, walking home from school with her friends, a bit frustrated like adolescents often are. Her father was a WWII marine and a poet. That day, she saw him picking dandelions out of the lawn. Seeing her, he turned around and smiled and showed her one of the flowers, asking, “Rose, what do you see?” Not knowing what answer he was looking for, she responded, “I don’t know Dad. I see a dandelion.” He said, “Yes, but I want you to look deeper and wider. Look beyond the obvious.” Rose asked him: “What do you see?” He paused, looked at her, and said, “I see the end of a long winter. I see the dawning of a new season. I see lovers walking hand in hand exchanging silent expressions of their love. I see children picking these out of the lawns and handing them to their moms.” He went on: “Rose, we, like many homeowners, will use things to take these dandelions out of our lawns, like other weeds. And in their place will come beautiful flowers like irises and tulips and even roses. But the beauty of the dandelion is not in its first expression of spring. It's in the root, because it's resilient. And all of us know that no matter how much we try to get rid of them, they come back double fold.”
The message for each one of us is that resilience. As you listen to Rose talk about the work she does with and for her business clients, you will be inspired to respect and expand your own resilience. These are fast-changing times, and resilience, personally and in business, is more essential than ever.
Powerful advice for women, those in the C-suite or any leadership role
As Rose tells us: How often we think we’re having the same conversation — about dark chocolate, for instance — only to be referring to three different things: milk, white or bittersweet varieties. She shows us how to first establish common ground that leads to an effective discourse for addressing relevance, growth and scaling — the three most important issues she sees in business today.
Judith Glaser, the great organizational anthropologist and change agent, once told me that all our lives are just conversations — good ones and not so good ones. Rose has amazing insights on this too, and all women in business should pay close attention to her ideas.
Searching for your passion and purpose? Start here:
- Blog: For Women In Business, Now Is The Time To Achieve Your Dreams
- Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose
- Podcast: Tony Martignetti—Are You Ready To Live A Life Of Inspired Purpose?
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. As you know, I'm a corporate anthropologist, and my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And for our podcast, I go looking for people who can help you do that as well. Our job is to get you off the brink. But unless you can see things through a fresh lens, begin to understand them in a new way, you get stuck, or stalled, or you know what you know, and your brain doesn't really want to change anyhow, thank you very much, please go away. I'm happy where I am.
But today, the times are changing. We are in a world that is full of turmoil, everywhere, of all kinds. From COVID, to the Ukraine, to what's going on in corporations, everybody is having a challenging time talking to each other. And so I brought you today a wonderful woman who's going to help you think about the conversations that we're having, and how to turn them into really growth experiences. The whole world is a conversation. We're having a global conversation right now.
So today, we have Rose Fass here. Rose and I met fortunately, serendipitously at the Westchester Business Council, where she was presenting an absolutely brilliant presentation. And she's going to share some of those insights with you. It was really so touching. I said, Wow, can I share her with our audience as well? Now, the Westchester Business Council is a marvelous organization. You have no idea how many people I've met there, it's a really cool place. But each time I meet somebody and want to share them, they add some dimension to our day today.
Let me tell you a little bit about Rose and then she'll tell you about her own journey. Rose knows, as she says, how to use her unique gift to take a mess and quickly put it in place with effective steps to teach desired outcomes. Interesting, isn't it. So she loves to change as I do, and like me, is a culture change expert. She's a natural facilitator who connects with all types of people at all levels of an organization, from the C-suite to the people closest to the work. She has over 45 years of experience in technology and consumer-based industries. During her career, Rose has opened businesses in the United States, has been a general manager with full P&L responsibility and led major corporate transformations. She was a chief transformation officer at Xerox and she's going to tell you a lot about some of her learnings and why at this point she's ready to help others do all kinds of transformation. These times, they are a-changing as Bob Dylan told us in the 60s. Rose, thank you for being with me today.
Rose Fass: Thank you, thank you so much. And it's interesting that whenever I hear my bio, I have to smile a little because I go back to being this little kid in a very small neighborhood with a group of young Italian girls like myself just walking around and trying to figure out what it was that we were going to do when we grew up. So the interesting part about all of this is, I run a company right now called fassforward Consulting Group. And it's probably the culmination of everything I ever did at Xerox. Later I went to Gartner with the now CEO of ServiceNow, Bill McDermott, and then met my colleague and partner there, Gavin McMahon, and we started this about 21 years ago. And I still feel like I'm a student of the subject that I talked about. So I want to bring myself into the room as little Rose, so you know who I am. Then we can decide whether any of us are a big piece of stuff, or we all buy into this world with our brilliance and our muddy shoes.
So I used to live in East Utica, New York. That's where I was born, on Ruptor Street, and we had a four-room cold water flat that my dad worked very hard on, kind of getting it to where we would have hot water or mom wouldn't have to boil it on top of the stove. Believe it or not, I'm 72 years old and I can actually think back to those days very fondly. But my claim to fame was I lived down the street from Annette Funicello. All of you young women, she was on the Mouseketeers and we were just all a bunch of Italian girls who could dance and sing and we were all cute. And we just could not understand why Annette got discovered by Walt Disney and ended up in Hollywood and we were left in East Utica. So for many, many days, I walked with a group of Italian girls home, complaining, whining, saying bad things and being green with jealousy.
I remember this one day, it was unusual because it was early spring, and if you know anything about upstate New York winters, they're horrible. But the weather was nice and I saw my dad picking dandelions out on the front lawn. I went up to him very quietly, because I just wanted to scoot by. My father was a World War II Marine, a published poet and conversant in all the Romance languages, so he was a very interesting guy. I remember walking by and him saying, Rose, and I halted. I turned around, this little nine-year-old looking at him, and he said, What do you see? And he held up the dandelion. And I thought, Oh, God, I don't want to do this. This philosopher, I don't want to do this. And I said, I don't know Dad, I see a dandelion. And he said, Yes, darling, but I want you to look wider. I want you to look deeper. I want you to look beyond just the dandelion. And he looked at me, and I said, I don't know Dad, what do you see?
I think at that point, I had learned how to be very good at rhetorical responses, especially when I didn't have an idea of what to say. I was so down in the dumps that I just didn't have the energy to get into it. I usually did, because I think for my dad I was the one that appreciated poetry and philosophy. So he looked at me and he said, Darling, I see the end of a long winter. I see the dawning of a new season. I see lovers walking hand in hand exchanging silence. I see children picking these out of the lawns and handing them to their moms to put them in juice glasses on the sills as a means of saying I love you. And I looked at him. And I said, you see a lot, Dad. And he said, Rose, soon this dandelion, this beautiful expression of spring is going to become a weed, and we like many homeowners are going to go to the nurseries and we're going to get the stuff that will take it out of the lawn because we want to rid ourselves of this one beautiful expression of spring that's now an ugly reminder of cleaning up the yard.
And I looked at him. He said, Because soon honey, the beautiful flowers are going to come along, the irises, the tulips, and yes, even the roses. But the beauty of the dandelion is not in its first expression of spring, it's in the root, because it's resilient. And all of us know that no matter how much we hack at them next year, they come back double fold. We named you Rose, but roses are fragile. In your heart, you need to be a dandelion. That is my signature story.
I remember that day of standing there on that little patch of lawn and crying in the arms of the Marine and in the arms of the poet. And for whatever reason, letting it all out and feeling like I may be enough. I didn't think I was but maybe I'm enough. And I think we women struggle with that. And so for the rest of my journey, I have reminded myself that we get kicked around, and we get hacked at. And we just have to be resilient. And so today, I think that's probably more true than ever. And it has held me together for many, many years. Andi, so I want you know who I really am, the little rose, the woman who became who she is today, and that I am a combination of all of those beautiful moments when you learn through pain.
Andi Simon: Now, by saying that, I guess I visualized that scene with your father was exhilarating, maybe painful. But he was imparting to you wisdom that's really hard to come by otherwise. Who else would you trust to listen to that way? So you may have cried but I have a hunch he had a long term impact on the way you see the world. It's all of the implications and the meaning that it has. Am I right?
Rose Fass: The Marine, unlike the philosopher, said, one rule for my two brothers and me was to be up by 0600, ready for company. Every day of my life, I am out of bed by six o'clock and I get dressed no matter where I'm going. My hair is combed. I've showered and am presentable and so are my brothers. And in his mind, it was the "ready for company" meant a lot of things. Were you ready to be gracious? Were you ready to be approachable? Were you ready to be aware, conscious, willing to help? All those things culminated in that one little statement: be up at 0600 and ready for company. And I've kind of never forgotten that. Today, with people working remotely, I noticed they get on the camera, and oftentimes, they'll take the camera off because they're not camera ready or they're even in sweat pants, and they're looking draggy. And when you don't feel good about yourself, it's hard to feel good about life. Yes, and we're living in a time when I think more than ever we have to bring our best selves to whatever we're doing. Because it's going to get harder before it gets easier. I really believe that.
Andi Simon: You're making the important point about our best selves. And I want you to talk a little bit about the career that you had because we could stay on your lessons learned in your youth a lot. But the best self is a very interesting concept. We are working with a lot of women as coaches, and they are successful, but not happy. They have a position or are partner in a firm. They've got degrees, are financially successful and they're asking, Isn't there more? We talk a lot about who am I? What's my purpose? What's my best self? So a little bit more about as you got into your career, you began to carve out an area around transformation. Sounds like your father became living in these companies a little bit further.
Rose Fass: By the way, Andi, you talk about youth. I often relate to men in the work that I do. I tell them there's no more important person in a young woman's life than their father. Mom plays a role but Father gives them the sense of validation and approval of who they are as women. And I think that's critical, just as mothers help their sons become more approachable and more yin and yang.
So for me, my early career after I got out of Boston University, I started at Saks Fifth Avenue in an executive training program, and I had two mentors. I had Jan Edelstein, God rest her soul. She was very gypsy-ish, wore all these crazy skirts and crazy glasses and lots of bangles. But knew Judith Leiber, Bottega, every possible fashion brand you can think of in accessories. I was her assistant and I was also assistant to the blouse buyer, who was Miss Janet. And I'm not kidding. Little bow, little glasses like a librarian, always in the black pencil skirt, white blouse, buttoned to the teeth. They could not have been more different. Jan told me to have to learn how to be creative and every bit of data and information you need to make good sound decisions. But let that be one data point that I want you to go with your gut when you feel you know how your experience is and how something speaks to you.
Then I went up toJudith and she taught me the process. And it was so procedural. I remember taking an inventory where every single blouse had to be counted. And in those days, these departments were massive. And I walked around and I was spinning. And I was trying to take a few little shortcuts. And she said to me, Miss Maysa (my maiden name), and I said, Yes. She said, You are not to take shortcuts. You will one day take shortcuts but that will be after you learn the long way home, and I'm going to teach you a long way home.
The unique part about this was that Jan and Judith were really good friends. They could not have been more different. But they understood each other in their own way. And neither of them really took shortcuts. Most of them understood what it meant to take a long way home. Years later, working with young people and trying to get them to understand that there are steps to getting to an outcome that doesn't just happen because you wish it so, I would say to them, you are taking shortcuts. You can't do that either. You learn the long way home. And here's the long way. It's like doing math in classes, you do the long version, and then you can get to the quick answer. So for me, my whole career has been pretty much about working in data areas that required both my gut and my ability to be disciplined.
Andi Simon: Very interesting. I grew up in the retail business. I was supposed to take over our family firm. A very big store in Manhattan, a department store in the old family for a model. And I was being trained to take it over. As I'm listening to you, I vividly remember trips to the market with my grandmother and my mother to go buy. I remember saying to my grandmother, How do you know what to buy? She said, "Well, Andrea," (I remember her voice so well) and she said to me, "1/3 will sell full price, 1/3 will sell on sale, and 1/3 will walk out the door. Now if we're good, we'll have enough money coming out of that to pay bills and do it again." And that's my vivid memory. I'm being taught that. I remember putting blouses on the hangers. You were counting the blouses. I was putting them on the hangers with Leo in the basement.
Rose Fass: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We did it all. I remember Judy Garland coming in to buy a Rosanna sweater. Oh, no, I'm really dating myself here. But Rosanna sweaters were weaved in such a way that it was a staple in every woman's closet. And in those days, believe it or not, women wanted to be a size 12. They wanted to be curvy, and terrific. So she came in emaciated. And she insisted on the size 12 sweater and I thought, You need a size 6. We didn't have 2s and 4s and zeros. Six was the smallest size back then. So ladies, we actually did get to eat. She insisted. And then she called in my department manager and she said, I want to talk to her boss. And I'm like, Oh my God. And the whole thing was, you give her what she wants. She's a size 12 and in her mind she's that size. Well, later, I got a call from upstairs. They said, Wrap all of Ms. Garland's things up and we'll send them over to the hotel. And that was the end of the conversation.
And I learned that being technically right wasn't necessarily socially effective. When I later put together the technical, social and political spheres, which are a big part of the book that I've written, called The Chocolate Conversation, and the book I'm writing now, The Leadership Conversation, making bold changes one conversation at a time. We live in this technically right space where we have the facts, we know what we're doing, we're going to say it the way we're going to say it, but sometimes we have to socially adjust to what a person is capable of experiencing in that moment. And getting somebody there by connecting with them, not through facts and through your technical expertise, but through that human connection, and then ultimately positioning it in a way that they feel like they came out of this a winner.
Andi Simon: Being an anthropologist, my affection is with understanding women and people. We really intuitively watch what goes on and observe and listen. People can't really tell you what they're doing, to your point. And when you look at data that has no meaning out of context, I still hear my anthro 101 professor saying to me, There is no data that does not explain, does not exist out of context. Their meaning is set into the context. But the other thing that we've learned is that people decide with the heart, the gut, the eyes, and then the data in the brain begins to operate. And that means we have to experience each other. We've got to feel each other. We really don't know what it means. The reason I love my podcast to be video or audio is people see differently. But as you're thinking about it, the first book and the second book you're writing now are all about conversations. They are about your passion. Same thing.
Rose Fass: I think for me, Andi, you put it perfectly. One of my dearest friends that I got to know when I first started at Xerox, then went to Palo Alto Research and then later came with her to Gartner and that my early days at fassforward, was an anthropologist, and I just loved Susan because she always said that to me. She said, Rose, there's their side, this side and somewhere in there there's the truth. And then there's the person who's observing the truth.
We had a gig with Estée Lauder where they wanted to know what was important to women around mascara. And Susan just sat on trains and watched people put it on. And I was like, Oh my God. And she goes, Well, what's important to you? I said, Well, at night, when I want to give myself a refresh, you have to take it all off because it clumps when you put it all back on again. And later, they came out with a conditioner that you could literally put over a mascara and then put it on and we were part of that pattern. All in the conversations with women about what was important conversations.
For me, the first and the most important one is the one you have with yourself. Yes. What's that conversation that's going on in your head? What's your head telling you? What have you done that maybe was right or wrong? So I'm going to take a little moment here. I have a colleague that works for me here, Liz works with me. And I adore her and she happens to live nearby. She put her car in park and realized she had forgotten two presents in the house. She left the dog in the car, her handbag, and just quickly, 30 seconds, ran to the apartment, grabbed this stuff, got back and the handbag was gone. And she beat herself up about that for three straight days in a row. "But I only left for 30 seconds." "But I only did"...is what we do to ourselves. We beat ourselves up over the mistakes that we made. And we don't celebrate the fact that we've learned something.
You're parked by a bus stop, someone's riding a bus, so they're not doing as well as maybe you are in the car. They get out. They see an open door, they grab a handbag because it's something to get them by for whatever period of time. And whatever karma was involved in what you owed that individual from some other life, maybe it got taken care of at that moment. And no mistake, let's not worry about it. Let's not get ourselves all worked up. Yes, it's disturbing but at the end of the day, we are going to make mistakes. Our victories will keep us buoyant in life, but our mistakes are what are going to teach us in life. I really believe that.
Andi Simon: Oh, I agree. I agree. Yeah, I'd like to add to that, that Liz had a damaged self. One of the things that we often say is, flip it around and begin to express. I think what you're saying is gratitude, what do we do, because it changes the whole, and we manage our minds, the mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. When you understand that you can be unhappy, or you can have a lesson learned, I'm grateful she showed me, I will never do that again. Right. I learned that the little time I took was really unnecessary to do it that way. I mean, all the things that turn negative lemons into lemonade, right out of that building that story. It's a little like your dad with his dandelion, and your answer, It's a dandelion, and he said, Push, go further. And so to your point, that self care that we need, and that self awareness comes from taking every experience and turning into something else.
Rose Fass: Because nobody's perfect out there. I don't trust perfect people. I learned that in my first book. I think we're all a little messy. I kind of feel this way very strongly. I look at Golda Meir, and I think of what she went through when she became Prime Minister. And it was messy. But what an incredible character, right? Gandhi was messy. A lot of these incredible leaders that we knew about. Winston Churchill never got out of bed sober. Very messy guy. But leadership is messy. And if you are willing to take that on, you can obviously do something uniquely different in the world. I look at Steven Jobs as one of the great leaders of our time in innovation, not so much in leadership, but in innovation. And at the end of his life, he finally came to grips with the fact that I've lived this incredible life, but it's coming to a much shorter halt than I had anticipated. And yet he was very messy.
What I say to people in management is, it's something you can plan for. It's the management of work, it's the management of plans. It's all about the stuff that we get to look ahead and do but leadership happens in the moment. It happens when Rosa Parks gives up her seat on the bus. It happens when, at the worst moment in your life, you are going to have to have the courage to do something that you otherwise would be terrified to do. And yet you do it. That's leadership in the moment. We don't get to plan for that. And if we can accept the fact, as I said earlier, that we come into this world with our brilliance and our muddy shoes, and that life is messy, that we can't expect perfection, and we can't hold ourselves accountable to perfection, then we can do what we need to do as all individuals and just progress, one conversation at a time.
And I do believe we're in a conversation right now. And we have had very different backgrounds, and yet some very common ground, both started our careers in retail. You went on to become an anthropologist. I got to work with one for a long time that I thoroughly enjoyed. I've taken my business career to heights I never dreamed I would be at. And I have the opportunity to work with C-level executives. And when they ask me how I think I know or why it is what I'm saying, I go, It’s easy. I'm 72. I'm at least 20 years older than you and I made every damn mistake that I could possibly make up to this point. And I'm still making them. So I'm saving you the benefit of that.
And in the book, it's a book of stories. It's a book of stories about different leaders, different experiences, my journey as a young woman to my business career, and all the different ways in which we sabotage what we are capable of. That phrase that came out very popular a few years back: Don't go there. I absolutely hated it, Andi. I'd be like, I'm packed and ready to go. I don't want someone to tell me, Don't go there. That means this conversation isn't safe, let's not have it. The conversation is as safe as you choose to make it if you can have a civil discourse. And so I have a chapter in the first book, Go there. Find a way to go there.
So many times when you bring up the fact that women are unhappy in their current roles is because they have not expressed what they're distressed about. It's like Cassandra, Greek tragedy, the voice is trying to come out. And it's not. And we have to make ourselves known. And I don't mean in an alfa, overly feministic way, but to be real, to come out and say, look, this isn't working for me. I need other things. And today, these people in big positions within corporations, whether they're women or men, are willing to listen. They don't want the erosion of their diverse employees. They don't want that. They want you to stay. So if ever there's a time to express yourself, using the right way to speak.
Andi Simon: So let's stay on that. This is a new book that Rose is working on for our listeners. She has a first book. Did you call it The Chocolate Conversation?
Rose Fass: Yes, The Chocolate Conversation.
Andi Simon: Yes, I do love chocolate. But The Chocolate Conversation has now led to a whole new book. What we're talking about is conversation. All of life is conversation. Yes, Lazer, the late organizational anthropologist, wrote great stuff about conversational intelligence and the power of we. And what we've learned from the neurosciences is that when you say in a conversation, the neurosciences, the brain goes, Ooh, run away. The amygdala hijacks it, it flees it, the cortisol said, This is going to be painful. Don't hang around, off you go. But when you say, We, the we brings out all kinds of good oxytocin or wonderful hormones that say, Oh, let's bond. This is the love that we feel. You, Rose, tell us about the book you're writing.
Rose Fass: Well, it’s a book of conversations. It's a book of conversations with myself with others. I think what you said earlier, I really care that somebody gets heard and gets acknowledged. I remember facilitating a very large group of different cultural people from Latin America, Portugal. People that were there from France. And we had these earphones on, because they were getting translated into English. And at the same time, we were facilitating all these different languages. There was this one little Portugese guy and he stood up and he was trying to explain something to his boss. And it was completely misinterpreted.
One of the things that I call the chocolate conversation is just talking, right?, and the boss got very annoyed, and I said, Stop for a minute. And I kind of took off my earphones and I said, Can you just translate for me? Yes. And I said, this is what I think I heard you say, and he was, Si, si, si. And I said to him, And so I translated and took the whole thing, and I brought it back. And in that moment, there was such a relief. And I thought to myself, I teared up, because in my heart of hearts, the worst thing in the world is when you're standing there trying to express yourself in another language even, and someone is just not getting what you're saying. And completely misinterpreting, because we spend more time on our own point of view than trying to understand what it is that you're saying.
So I think today, in business, we've got to start listening to people at the front of the business, the ones that are closest to the customers, it doesn't matter what age someone is, there's truth that is worth listening to. I feel that this is the last value added space right now because our institutions have failed us. People are looking at journalism, and they're saying, Where is it? Where is the unbiased truth? We're getting nothing but opinion and vitriol conversations. The public stage has become a boxing ring. Everybody is walking around that whole term of psychological safety. When I hear it, I think, Oh, my God, it sounds so clinical. What it really means is, Can I be comfortable here? Can I be in my own skin? Can I wake up in the morning and feel like it's going to be okay? And I think we owe that to each other.
I think we need to become more human. We need to provide that peace of mind to our children, to our friends, to our family as much as we can. And we need to find a spiritual essence in all of us. And this has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with who are we, why are we here? It's not just about the momentary little things that we go through. It's really bigger than that. And so my books are about how do you have conversations that are inclusive, that shift people's points of view from a worldview they're stuck in, establish new standards, a lie, some concerns.
The Chocolate Conversation is about worldviews, standards and concerns. The new book is about being bold with your conversation, saying what you mean, not what you think people want to hear but doing it in a way that you can get your point across in a loving and caring and compassionate way such that people feel touched.
You saw me at the Westchester Business Council. I showed that wonderful little film of Mary Jackson, NASA engineer. And those of you who have seen Hidden Figures know what I'm talking about in the film. This was a woman who needed to go to a school to get an engineering degree so she could become a NASA engineer. She's brilliant. But she was a woman of color. Walking in at a time when the level of bias against people of color was so serious. And if she had gone up against that judge with hatred, resentment, vitriol, about something that was totally unfair, she would have been right. But she never would have been effective. But she went to that judge with a different heart, and she found common ground. You've been first in a lot of places. I need to be first going to that school, we can have this in common. And I shared that at the Business Council because that to me, was the combination of one of the better conversations I've been exposed to.
Andi Simon: You have a passion and a purpose. You really do want to see change happen, and how we get along, how we listen to each other, how we learn from each other. And there's something more here in your life journey that really is transformational. You see that it's a time where we have to not simply accept the way we are but begin to change the way we go. I'm anxious to hear if you have any message in your little toolkit here to share or some ideas about how we can begin to multiply. A podcast is a podcast, but my whole purpose in life is to multiply it so that people take it and share it. And in the process, learn something they can actually do with it.
Rose Fass: So I think one of the things that's helped me a lot, and I can't take credit for it, was given to me by a wonderful professor at MIT that I happen to be in touch with. When you want to have a conversation, particularly one that may have a little conflict associated with it, have the meta conversation, the conversation about the conversation, get permission to have it. That was very helpful to me, because I would be, Are you open to an alternative point of view? And yes, even if it's going to be very different from the one that you have. Yes. Do you mean it? Yes, I mean, okay, I'm going to take a risk here, and say something that really flies in the face of your experience, your lived experience, and what you've just shared with me, and I just want you to consider it. I don't want you to agree with me, I just want you to consider it. And that's helped me a lot to be able to have that kind of conversation. And I'll do it often with a CEO. And they're like, Okay, and they take a breath.
I think also, when I'm getting feedback, I don't know about you, Andi, but I still lose, if it's not going to be good. You know, I still have that. And what I've learned from my years here is to stop feeling that I'm going to feel it initially no matter what I do, but to step back from it and say, this is just a data point. Not defining my entire persona. It's not defining my past, my future, my present. It's a data point. Let me take it in. Let me think about it. Let me try to get myself back centered. I think staying in the present, very important, stays in the conversation you're having, not the one you're tying yourself to. And you know, having a conversation is not waiting for your time to speak.
Andi Simon: Well, these are important points. And as the listener is taking their notes, as I know you often do, there's some lessons here about navigating interpersonal relationships, having a permission conversation before you have the conversation levels the playing field. It's not adversarial, it's communication. It's sharing, it's a we, in a sense, it's that what Glaser spoke about, which opens your mind up to something I'm going to enjoy as opposed to flee in some fashion. The second thing is that as you're going through this, I learned a long time ago to say something like, It sounds like you are upset about something. And if I put it into their zone, it becomes a conversation of listening, as opposed to having a point of view about it. And I would say to my staff, I was an EVP of a bank, and I had lots of folks, and I would learn that and practice it because I didn't want to jump to any conclusions. It was easy to become a command and control leader, but I was very engaging. And I said, Sounds like you're having some difficulty with your manager? No, I see. Well, it sounds like you're unhappy with your job.
I mean, you can really watch the responses come back as long as I kept it in their zone, as opposed to trying to take charge of it. And then my third point is that I often ask people, Yur feedback point is really important. I teach a Leadership Academy. And we teach feedback. Because every conversation is feedback. It's in the feedback loop. And I say to people, If you really want to get the right feedback, say to somebody, What's one thing you would like me to do differently? You'd be amazed at how interesting that goes.
Rose Fass: Yes. Great question. Wonderful question. And most people are afraid to ask it. And afraid to hear, afraid to ask it and they're afraid to because they're afraid to hear it. Very often, and you may have found this too Andi, if you say to someone, I sense that you're upset about something, they might feel like, Oh, are you threatening me? But it's more along the line of just sort of stepping back from it and saying, you know, we all have concerns. Yeah, I know I have them. What might be one of your concerns? What are you feeling right now? What do you like about what you do? And what are the things that you could change if you had a magic wand? And you could just change this one thing? What might that be? Just giving people a chance to step outside of themselves and de-personalize a little. Sometimes if we can step out of ourselves.
This is another anthropological method that Susan taught me: stand outside of yourself, just observe it. And it was a hard thing to learn to do. But it's an extraordinarily freeing. When you can sort of step outside, say what's really bothering me. Why am I so stressed about this? And we're going to be stressed, these are stressful times. I really felt bad about that poor tennis player, devoted to his healthy body, he's not anti-vax. He's come right out and said it, I'm not anti vaccinating, I just don't want to put any foreign things into my body. Now, whatever side of the argument you're on, the newscasters kept trying to pin him as an anti-vax. And he's the sweetest guy. And there's a sweetness about him. And I said, You know, he's probably a health nut. He believes in alternative medication. Have we tried to understand his point of view? Are we just throwing this out at him that he's now part of the anti-vaxx movement now?
Andi Simon: But Rose, we have to wrap up, as much fun as we are having. It's really an honor and a privilege. We have a brilliant woman, Rose Fass. I want her to give you one or two things she doesn't want you to forget because we often remember the ending more than the beginning. Although her dandelion story is one that you're gonna hold on to. Some things Rose you want to leave with us.
Rose Fass: Remember that everybody, everybody piles in with their brilliance and their muddy shoes. Take that away, nobody's perfect. That's something I want you to take away. The second thing is, remember the conversation you're having with yourself. That's the single most important conversation because that's the one that's going to shape the conversations you have with others. And when you do have a conversation with someone else, think about the context. You're in the social connection you need to make, how things need to be positioned. And think about having the conversation about the conversation before you jump right in. That would be the three things that I would say. And my dandelions story is just if you're another we'd be happy to have you in the field.
Andi Simon: This has been such fun. So we have had Rose Fass here. If they want to reach you, where can they do that?
Rose Fass: They can do it at hello@fastforward.com. And I'm on LinkedIn, Rose Fass.
Andi Simon: Yes, everybody's on LinkedIn. Thank you LinkedIn, it's a great place to find the world. Now, for my listeners. Thank you for coming. As always, our audience is wonderful. Rose has given you some great insights today about all kinds of things: not only growing up, but also really becoming who we are, listening to our conversations about who we are, and also finding a path to where we find purpose and passion. It comes down to conversations. All conversations are there. That's how we survive. Then the question is, who are we having conversations with and what are we listening to, and listening has become real important.
Thank you for coming to our podcast. As you know, we're ranked in the top 5% of global podcasts, which is truly an honor and a privilege. It's wonderful. And I bring on guests who I think have ideas they want to share with you. My books are available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local bookseller. My Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, Rose could have been in there. And I have the stories of 11 women who have smashed the myths. They didn't listen to people who said, Oh, you shouldn't, and you can't and no, we don't, because they said, Of course we can. And they are really great role models for other women. AndOn the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is about how a little anthropology can help your business grow. And as you know, we spend a lot of time consulting with clients and helping them see, feel and think in new ways like you.
Learn how to become the person you really want to be
I met Linda Vettrus-Nichols through her lovely husband Terry Earthwind Nichols, with whom I've done two podcasts. Here is our most recent one. Linda brings you a different perspective on how you can take control of your life and become the person you have always wanted to be. She talks about her own journey and how she got to where she is now, as a coach, as a person really into thought leadership, and as someone who inspires people to do what they might otherwise not have done (like write a book in 30 days). Linda's a really special person to hear from. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
It's not so bad to really love others, and love yourself a little too
Linda is the CEO of Evolutionary Healer, a global transformational performance improvement company which she co-founded with her husband Terry. She calls herself “the queen of clarity” and believes that at the end of the day, love and solid relationships are all that matter. As a spiritual thought leader and coach, she finds the gaps and corrals the chaos that keep powerful entrepreneurs stuck or stalled. In some ways, we do similar things. We both would like to help you see, feel and think in new ways.
Linda is also the author of 21 books, one of which focuses on the practical action steps you need to publish your own book in a month or less. You can connect with her on LinkedIn, her personal website and the Evolutionary Healer website.
Need a little help becoming who you really want to be? Here's a start
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Blog: Is It Time To Rethink Where You Are And Where You Are Going?
- Podcast: Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You?
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. And as you know, I'm your host and your guide. And people come from all across the globe to listen to us because we help them get off the brink, which is so much fun. You don't want to get stuck or stalled. And that's really very interesting because sometimes when we see things, we run the other way. We don't really go forward towards them. You need a little nudge, or a little hope, or some trust. So I go looking for interesting people who are trying to help you see things through that fresh lens. You begin to trust the fact that you can in fact change.
I know your brain hates to change. But don't waste this crisis that we've gone through. It's time to rethink everything that you used to think was exactly the way we did it and now there are all kinds of new ways. You're not quite sure how we're going to go back because you're not going back. Now the question is, how do you go forward? And where is that? And how do you see what's new and uncertain when you all want certainty? And there is none.
So today, I have Linda Vettrus-Nichols. And Linda came to me through Terry, who is her husband and her partner in a wonderful firm. Let me tell you a little bit about her. Then she'll tell you about how she got here because it's been a wonderful journey for her. She does some great things with people as a coach, as somebody who is really into their thought leadership. Somebody who helps you write books in 30 days. So Linda is the CEO of Evolutionary Healer, a global transformational performance improvement company. I'll say that, again. They are global. And it's a transformational performance improvement company that she co-founded with her husband, Embassy Ambassador Terry Earthwind Nichols. I've done two podcasts with Terry. And I've done two for him.
Linda is “the queen of clarity.” And I love that title. She believes that fantasizing about the impossible is totally reasonable and striving for satisfaction is a must. And at the end of the day, love and solid relationships are all that matters. You know, we've learned a whole lot during this pandemic. And that is, you do only live once and it's not so bad to really love and love yourself a little too. She's a spiritual thought leader and coach who finds the gaps and corrals the chaos that keep powerful entrepreneurs stuck or stalled. So in some ways, we do similar things. And we'd like to help you see, feel and think in new ways. She's a published author of 21 books, and she has a book with the practical action steps you need to get your book done. And I have two books done. We're working on the third. It is a journey. Thank you for joining us today.
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: Thank you. And oh, Andi, I just absolutely love your book Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business.
Andi Simon: I truly appreciate that. I'd love for you to share with the audience who is Linda? And what is your journey? Give them a sense of your story because I do think it's a wonderful rich one, and one that helps others begin to see their own selves in journey form. What's your journey? What's your story?
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: My story is, I was in a marriage for 33 years. I call it a starter marriage and was just trying to keep my sanity and trying to figure it out and figure out what wasn't working and why. And at the end of the day, I found out it takes two people. And I didn't know, I just felt stuck. And now I teach that people aren't stuck. Not really, they just feel stuck. And for me what got me unstuck was to surround myself with a whole different group of people. And within that group, there was somebody who helped me with questions, kind of clarity questions on taking a look at leaving a marriage of that many years and coming up with answers to that question. So that was one sort of pivot for my life.
And, then I met Terry and he had figured out a process to take people through. Much like Sigmund Freud, he was looking for interior discoveries, like breakthroughs to find that amnesia in memory from childhood. And so we worked on that together. We were in a coaching industry with that and going out speaking and things like that. And then Terry had heart surgery. And my coach was like, What do you want to do now, because he's out of commission for a while, and I had no idea what I really wanted to do. And so I guess that's probably how I started stepping into clarity and helping other people with their clarity.
Andi Simon: So there was a catalytic moment where you were on your own for a moment, not alone. But on your own and as you discover that part of you was an emerging lesson in the next stage in your own journey, which was really quite interesting. So as you began to frame that, what was the problem you wanted to help other people solve or to solve for yourself? Because there's a combination. It's really a collaboration, not simply, I do this, you do that? It sounds like you are going through your transformation, and could help others do as well? How did you develop it? Is there a particular process you can share?
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: Well, I love people's stories, like you. And I was just talking to someone networking, and said, Oh, I love your story. I'd love to record it. And maybe use it in a summit or something. And she was like, Oh, yeah, either way, that's fine. So I did that. And then there were two more women that came along. So I recorded and then I started thinking, what are these women really saying to me, and they were telling me about a time that they were stuck in their lives. And I thought, I could do a summit on being stuck. And so I interviewed 14 women, ages 16 to 74. The 16-year-old was actually one of our clients who had been suffering from PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder, for about two months. So we were able to bring out her story that fit what we're doing in our business, and bring out what these other women were doing in their businesses.
And then I just kind of kept rolling and kept interviewing people. I had so many interviews. I'm like, Wow, I could just have a summit a month, for eight months. Which I did. Then I asked 16 of the probably 60-some women I'd interviewed if they wanted to be in a compilation book. And so I got the transcriptions back, and they were in script format, like a play at school, and I thought, Oh, that's different. And I was going to put them into a sort of written form. And then it was like, they have a beautiful flow this way. I really hate to take away that beautiful flow. And so I told Terry, I'm just gonna leave them in script format. And I go, Who does that? And he goes, Nobody.
There were two authors apiece from those 16 and we made up eight little books of their stories and named them after the different summits. So one is called Stuck. One is called Paradigm Shifters. It was more social media and that way. I ended up publishing nine books. So I kind of cheated.
And so people aren't used to 21 books. How did you do that? My kids were really challenging. And so I hooked up with another person whose kid was super challenging. And we started helping parents. We were pulling kids out of biochemical autism, ADD, ADHD and learning disabilities. Now we're teaching parents, mostly moms, how to do that. And I was before you could like Google stuff, you know. So that was really a special time, way back when, that was my first book in 1998. And then, I suppose it was about 2016 when I started cranking out books. I started with nine.
Andi Simon: You know, the audience who's watching us today is scratching their heads and saying, How'd she do that? You know, you can inspire people. You can push them. They'll run the other way and say, I can't do that. But in fact, part of this requires trust and courage, a bit of bravery. But part of it just requires a mindset that says, Of course we can, let's see how, and having a husband who's supportive is not inconsequential. But you also had a real good understanding of what was needed. Whether it was for those mothers, or for the others, and you sort of felt that they had an unmet need. You are really a Blue Ocean thinker.
Instead of putting the transcripts into a format of a font, there's something about your approach that's really fascinating to me. You see what is needed, and then you come up with an idea to really solve it. I have a hunch that that's been sort of the last period of time, since you left your last marriage into this one. What is so important now for you is the freedom to do this, the autonomy, the mastery, your purpose. Give the listeners some sense of how you've come to terms with who you are at this stage? And where is it going, because they want to have a role model. Because they all have great ideas, sometimes they're sitting there, and as you know, they don't blossom, and we want to help them be free. How about your thoughts?
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: The transition of marriage was, even if you're in a really healthy relationship, and you're not just loved, you really feel loved and supported. It's not enough until you love yourself. And so that was one of the big shifts for me, is learning to love myself. The other thing is stepping into, for lack of better words, my zone of genius. What is it that I do that I am so good at, and I am not exhausted doing it. I could just do it 24/7, and not even burn out.
So I have actually stepped into that in the whole book in 30 days process. And that I do free sessions. They're usually more like a clarity session, and whether someone thinks there's a book inside of them or not. And it's very powerful. The number one thing is, I get women out of their heads. I get them to slow down, to focus, to really embody. And that's my little process. So we just do like three belly breaths, like close your eyes. It's funny because when you do that, and you get your hand on your abdomen, all of sudden, you just really calm, you slow. And it makes people feel sane. And it's just been a really special process. It's just a free thing that I do for people, whether I'm networking with them, or they're a potential client or whatever. So that's, that's huge.
And then I say, if it's a clarity thing, that's just like, okay, so if you can only do one, which one would it be? If it's more of, they haven't come to me with something specific, it's like, Okay, if there's only one thing you can let the rest of us know, like, you're poof, off the planet tomorrow, and you really, really want us to know it. It's not about yourself. Not about you, it's you wanting us to know what for us. What would that be, and then they give it to me. And then I get another one and another one. And I get three and then I go back to the first of the three and do it again three times. And I end up with nine things in a special order. And I always say, it came from their soul, you know. And that ends up being their book chapters and their message to the world in a specific order of importance to them. And it's easy for them to find their tribe, so to speak.
Andi Simon: Well, but you know, easy is an interesting word always. People hate to change, the pain in the brain is real. Cortisol gets up there, your amygdala fights it. The second thing is that the amygdala doesn't like the unfamiliar. And it really wants things that are comfortable. Even if they're not answered. Your mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. And whether it's putting the hand on the belly or doing some mindfulness or a little meditation, you quiet down and you just take your brain into a quiet mind state where it feels really safe. Yesterday is gone, not much you can do about it and tomorrow hasn't happened. So for the present, you have this wonderful gift of just being, and then your process shows them what is possible.
And the trust that comes from that is extremely powerful because they really don't know where they're going, do they. And that uncertainty makes people very uncomfortable. And slowly, the three turns into nine. And next thing, you know, it's time for us to write a book about us and a bit about what we want the world to know so it can be a better place. So as our audience is listening, think about yourself: what kinds of ideas do you have that you want, in some fashion, to turn into a legacy of some type? Do you find that people write more than one book, as you have?
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: Well, my clients sure do. I really believe that everybody's full of all kinds of books. And like you, your clients, you won't even take them unless they're at "enough is enough." And so they just almost come to me pregnant with a book. It's like, I gotta get this thing out of me. I have no idea how to do it. Or I'm afraid to do it. I'm afraid if I tell whatever they're going to tell, somebody else will hate them for it or be mad. And yeah, there's a lot of drama trauma stories with my clients. What's even weirder is, I have clients who have done cookbooks with their drama trauma story. They're really powerful, cool books. But it's like, who does that?
Andi Simon: I'm working on my third book. And the gal I'm working with said, We really want to do a cookbook like this. I said, I like that idea. And I'm not sure what. God is in the kitchen, all's well in the world? But there's something about that cookbook model that pours out a whole different side of us, particularly as a woman, although the great chefs are all guys. There's a female side in there that's very nourishing, in many ways, and close to some interesting opportunities. Now, you're a person who doesn't stand still. What do you see coming next? Because I always say we never waste a crisis.
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: I love that line of years. That's so cool. You've stepped into making a course. And I can't wait to take your course. It just totally fills the gap in my learning, if you will. So I've created three Thinkific courses. And then I started experimenting with clients and doing courses. Actually, a client came to me, she had already started one. And we took her book and put it into one and then I did mine. So that's been interesting.
And what I've found is, even though we're using the material from the book, the course becomes its own thing. It becomes almost a whole new teaching. And if you haven't read the book, you're going to be okay and get through the course. If you have read the book, it reinforces the books. Another thing I enjoy doing is analyzing someone's website. That's what I absolutely love to do.
Andi Simon: And it's interesting because we're in the process of redesigning our website, and I’m impressed with our guys, because they've been working with us for a long time. I've been doing this for 20 years. So we've had multiple websites and iterations. But, you know, it's an interesting time, to your point, because as we started to look at what we had been, and were no longer who we were, and I was aware we were going either/and it was all captured in a website of all things. And then I renovated my office two weeks ago, three weeks ago, and had to repaint it. But in the process, I took a lot of books that had been here for 20 years, taking down the bookshelves was a fascinating capture of life. Because the books that were important, aren't necessarily the ones that I want to hold onto. And I'm not quite sure what I'll be doing with future books and so many of them are on my iPad. But they are an interesting commentary on being an anthropologist. It's all a digital indication of the things that matter.
And you almost want to make a record of who and why you were and what's coming in the way in which you're reading and the ideas. Warren Buffett said, Spend five hours a day reading. I'm not sure I can do that. But I try to read two books a week. And I love to read, I'm not a Netflix person, but I am a reader. And I find the ideas change your mind. You know, your mind rises, as you add new ideas into it, particularly on how to write a book, and how you convey the story. And it's a very interesting way of learning about things. But we're both changing.
And as we look forward, people say to me, Well, I want to go back to the way it was. I say, It's never going to go back to the way it was. So it's time to create the future you like to have. They have so little in common with the folks who come to you to write their book. They're not quite sure of the future they want to have. But I tell them, Unless you visualize where you're going, you can't live today.
You know, we're futurists. And so do you help folks in your coaching? I'm curious what you're seeing among your coaching clients and others about what they see coming? Can they visualize something new? As I'm coaching my clients, or doing my workshops for CEOs, they're stuck, many of them, and many of them are guys. And they knew how to run what they had. And they have no idea how to run what is now. And they're smart people, entrepreneurial, and frustrated, and they can't relate. And so I almost want to put their hands on their belly and say, take a deep breath or start again, you're in the startup phase.
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: That's such a great point. And you probably know that my husband created the vision strategy roadmap. And so I use that with my clients as well. And it isn't sort of, just like magic, one time, let go of everything. And you know, it kind of comes up from the soul. It embodies all right there from your abdomen, your powers, and just let it come up. And what are you doing? Like, where are you and it's really interesting.
If they tell me they want to speak from a stage, I just go into this intense drill down with them. Because that can mean so many things. And I really want them to get to who they really are. So if you were out in the center of the football stadium with people behind you, not a wall, would you be comfortable with that? And some people will write, Yeah, and other people, No, I wouldn't. If I go to the movie theater, I'd love to be in the back with the wall behind me. I like lots of neurological things. My background is special education. And I love all the brain stuff.
Andi Simon: Just to share some of our observations: I push them being who I am, as an anthropologist, I push them out to go exploring. I don't have a clue how to redesign your business without going out and listening. You don't have to do much more than listen to customers, are those whom you'd like them to be? And my workshops start off with, Who's going to be your customer tomorrow? What do they need? How are you going to be serving them?
I did a podcast earlier about the customer experience now that has changed. Everyone wants things fast. And the customer service centers are having a difficult time. They're all 30%, short on staff. And they are trying to figure out how to adapt to a remote workforce. How to evaluate them, everything that was, isn't. But the new one isn't yet either. And so part of it is, How do I visualize what could be taken out a year or two, and then sort of backward plan to begin to set up a path to get there because in the absence, we don't know how to live today.
And all the hormone perspective stuff that Martin Seligman has shown us from psychology, your human brain wants to see the future. And that's how it is now and if you don't see it, you make it up. So it's an interesting time for helping people see the opportunities of what comes, as opposed to flee them or fear them. And your amygdala would love to hijack them. So it's pretty cool stuff. And as you're working with these entrepreneurs who want to be on the stage, you might set up a stage and let them learn. It's just being up there and talking to people.
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: Another big question I say is, Do you like having the lights in your face? They may not know and have to go try it. Some of them just immediately go, No. So you want to see your audience? Well, yeah, I'm like, Okay, well, that just totally changes your venue. That totally changes the amount of people who are going to attend. Sometimes they can't quite come up with them themselves. So I start giving them some of those more concrete things.
Andi Simon: They need you to ask those profound questions. So it's pretty cool. So I'm looking at our time, it's about time for us to wrap up. I like to ask my interviewees two or three things you don't want the listeners to forget. Are there some things you want to tell them because they remember the end better than our beginning. What do you want them to walk away with? And say, Oh, Linda really helped me with this. Thoughts?
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: Just the idea that no one's ever really stuck. And words are just stories we tell ourselves. I know, you and I both like that. And, know who you are. So get in touch. Write your own story.
Andi Simon: Let's emphasize the stories a little bit. What we've learned is that maybe 45,000 or 50,000 years ago, or at some point, we had a quantum leap in our brain. And humans, because of that, are storymakers. We give meaning to things. And so a thing isn't a thing, it has some purpose or meaning, or it has some value. And out of that came the stories. The secret of our success is about how the stories in our culture have been the secret of our human success. And it changes our minds as we evolve. And it keeps this coevolution here, it's both the external and the internal transformation that's going on.
And you are evolving, as Linda has and I have. We aren't the same folks. We started out as not that different from them, either. But there's been a transformation. And Linda works with people to help them see, feel and think in new ways, as I do. Because if you don't see it and feel it, you don't know what it is that we're talking about. And she's talking about people wanting to be on stage who don't realize they are gonna be lights in their eyes.
We've got a little bit of good testing. Pretend you're in high school, and you're going to get on stage and see what it feels like because we decide with the heart and the eyes up ahead. And that follows. There's stories coming out of the pandemic, really big stories, and I'm anxious to see how we can compile them. As I'm listening to you, maybe there's a book here, about the post pandemic reality and how do we share it?
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: Yeah, that'd be cool. And the idea of healthy detachment really comes from staying out of the story. So there's the flip there, too. We get so caught up in the story, and it's just a story. It's a story of time. So you had all this pain, flip the story. And that's what happened to me. I had a gymnastics accident, lost my balance, fell, and really jammed my shoulder and nobody could understand it. I went to an ortho biochemist, and she said, Tell me how that happened. Tell me the story about it. So I told her, and then she said, Now change the story. Flip the story. And I'm like, as if it didn't happen, you know, because I had the gymnastic accident and lost my dance career.
A few months later, I lost my father to suicide. So there was a lot of trauma locked up in that shoulder. So I flipped the story. Terry was standing behind me, and all of a sudden, my shoulder blade just went clump. Literally, a sound of clunk. And he just went right in there. And took care of business, like no way to get under there before, but don't lose the power.
Andi Simon: I don't mean to interrupt you because it's so exciting to talk to you. But we live the story in our minds. They aren't there, they're an illusion. They're not real.
Linda Vettrus-Nichols: But they're also in our bodies, right? That's the thing. And when we change the story, it's just a story. When we change the story, the body doesn't know the difference. The body goes, Oh, okay. Is that the story? Great story. Oh, okay.
Andi Simon: And I think this is just a great story to share with our audience about how to change because we don't want you on the brink anymore. We want you to soar. And I don't want you to jump out of an airplane without a parachute either. Nor do I want you to fly the airplane, you know, and build it at the same time. There's lots you can do here. And I love Linda's process for helping you express this. Turn it into a book and make it a reality, at least an illusion that turns into something. So it's great fun.
Thanks for joining me today. This has been cool, thank you. It's fun. People always ask, Who's your audience. So I say to all of you out there who come, I've truly appreciate you. As you're thinking about yourself, send me your ideas at info@andisimon.com. I have people across the globe who send me their little notes, their ideas about who they'd like to hear from. It's great fun to share them. And it's a great time for you to rethink who you are, where you're going, and how you're going to get there. Sometimes you need a hand. And that's what we both do.
Both Linda and myself have a great time helping you rethink your story. And when you begin to work through my program, Rethink Your Journey with Andi Simon, or hers, you begin to see that it's all in that story. And if you like the story, great, but if you don't, we can change it. I love Linda's story. She changed her story and her new shoulder didn't hurt. How does that happen?
My books are available on Amazon: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. We are delighted you come to enjoy, and share, and have a great day. Stay well. Thanks, Linda, thank you so much for coming today. And we'll say goodbye. Bye now.
Hear how your organization should embrace change to grow George Swisher is a former marketing entrepreneur and management consultant. He has a 15-year track record of improving company performance and shifting cultures to effective change management. He currently is co-founder and CEO of www.changeforce.ai, a software platform that helps leaders manage organizational change more precisely by analyzing the sentiment of company conversations in real time. A really interesting platform. Remember, I'm a corporate anthropologist who, like George, helps companies change, so I loved this interview. So will you.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
When you begin to change, things aren't all changing at the same time
And you're not quite sure if it's moving at all, and sometimes you're moving a battleship with an oar. You're just hoping it's moving somewhere. But the technology which George has developed can identify where a culture is moving, which areas are strong and which are not.
First, he gathers data about what your culture is currently so you can make smarter decisions, whether you're a frontline employee, manager, director or executive entrepreneur. Then his software analyzes this data to help you scale what you are doing to do it faster, and save money. In essence, he helps you build better change processes of how you get things done so you can inform that process with meaningful information.
In our podcast, we talk a great deal about George’s own personal journey. You will love this conversation. Then come and share your own new ideas and see how they can soar.
For a deeper dive into how to change your corporate culture so you can soar
- Blog: Need To Change Your Organization's Culture? 6 Best Ways To Do It.
- Blog: How's Your Culture? Doing Fine Or In Drastic Need Of An Overhaul?
- Podcast: Tristan White—A Great Place To Work Starts With A Great Culture
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, I'm your host and your guide. And my job is to help you get off the brink. I go looking for interesting people who are going to do just that. They will help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can begin to soar again. These have been unusual times. I used to say, if you want to change, have a crisis or create one. I never expected a crisis of this sort. But I also preach, don't waste a crisis. Because it's a time where people will let you change, they will blame it on unexpected things. You'll never know where it can take you.
So today I have with me George Swisher. Let me tell you about George just a little bit, because we have some very interesting and important conversations about technology and transformation to share with you. George is a former marketing entrepreneur and management consultant. He has a 15-year track record of improving company performance, and shifting cultures to effective change management. He currently is a co-founder and CEO of Changeforce.ai. You should look it up. It's a software platform that helps leaders manage organizational change more precisely by analyzing the sentiment of company objectives in real time. It's really an interesting platform.
Remember, I'm a corporate anthropologist, and I like to help companies change. The question is, when you begin to change, things aren't all changing at the same time. And you're not quite sure if it's moving at all. And sometimes you're moving a battleship with an oar and you're hoping it's moving somewhere. And the technology that George has is very interesting as a way of identifying where it's strong or it's not. But today, we want to talk about culture, technology and business so we can see what's happening and where we're going. George, thanks so much for joining me.
George Swisher: Thanks for having me, I'm really excited.
Andi Simon: We are too. Tell the listeners about your own journey, because it's a perfect setup for where you are and where you’re going. Who is George? And what's your journey?
George Swisher: That's great. It's a great way to start. I think you know, in talking today, my hope was to help people understand how technology can really help them. So it's less about the software. It's more about, where were the pivotal points in my personal path that got me to where I realized that I needed to have technology as a utility to make better decisions or be more effective in the work that I was responsible for.
And so I was actually lucky to be a guest lecturer last night at Columbia. My co-founder, Dr. Nabil Ahmad, teaches a class on organizational strategy. He had a young group in there last night. And when I got home, I was taking the train home, and it reminded me of the moment, I remember exactly where I was, how old I was, when there was a huge tipping point where I said, Wow, if technology isn't a part of what I'm doing, I'm not going to be able to succeed at the path that I want. And, this group was really intelligent. So a lot of great questions reminded me of when I was about 19 years old. So I was young.
Luckily, I went into the workforce young, I was going to school and working at the same time. So at 19, you can imagine you're doing all kinds of different things, trying to do studies, trying to get a job done. And I was working for one of the largest railroad companies in the country. I was sitting there and I was a part of a team of about 20 people. It was an operational management and customer service, not the most innovative departments usually. So they had hired a tech consultant who came in and he developed a basic Microsoft access database with a pretty front end on it. That pretty much took the team from 20 people to two people. And I was lucky enough to be one of the two people that got to stay.
And what he ended up doing was figuring out a way to make managing customer service more efficient with less people. Some people thought it was bad. I thought it was brilliant. And that became the moment I was like, Wow, this person just came in and what I thought was my job today just completely changed in less than 24 hours. And it really made him look like a superhero to the company. Now of course the people who lost their jobs, it wasn't great for, but in terms of an organization and leadership, and what they were trying to do, here was this very simple thing that he did that completely changed that organization. And then this was a billion dollar company, right? This was a big, big deal. And it's when I realized that I needed to have a superpower like that if I was going to be able to go from a supervisor, which I was at the time, a young supervisor, to manager to director to executive to leadership. If I didn't have that kind of utility belt where I can just bolt on different pieces of technology to be my superpowers, I was gonna have to go at a much slower pace than I was willing to do. And that just became that time where it was. It was scary because I just watched 18 people lose their jobs because of technology. So I was a little bit fearful of it. But I was very intrigued by that. If I can use it the right way, it will help me beat out other people, bcause that's what I was at that age, that's all I was looking to do was build a career.
Fast forward about five years, I ended up moving up in that company, by using that strategy. So I actually dropped out of school, and decided to spend that same time discovering different technologies, and what could I not do physically, that some type of software or technology could help me either gain information that I didn't have readily available to me, and that can be in many different ways, or to make something more efficient. If it can make it more efficient, it has that ripple effect of scale, speed, cost, efficiency and savings. And I knew if I can do that, that I could beat out a lot of other people who may have more formalized education.
Five years later, I was running about a $50 million business unit at the age of 24, which is crazy to me at times. And that was almost 20 years ago, because I had beat out candidates who had MBAs, who had more work experience, but really couldn't understand how to create that speed and scale and cost effectiveness that I was able to do. And that's how I got into that position. And so last night just reminded me of how many leaders didn't get the luxury that I had to figure that out, as they've been moving through their careers. And what's always funny is when we have these conversations, a lot of times people ask so many questions about the physical technology, like, are you building it? Are you building artificial intelligence? What is machine learning? They get so into the details, which happened last night with these young leaders.
My advice to them was, It's not about learning how to be an engineer, it's more of understanding what can't you do today? Is there some type of technology that can help you do that better, faster, more informed? If you can do that, you'll win the battle, right? If you go to hold it down into the hole, you get lost into the engineering world, which you don't want to. And so, I think that timeframe was really the moment where I just never looked back. Everything that I did, every career decision I made, hinged on the fact that I could constantly explore, and eventually I got into building our own technologies if we couldn't find them. So if there wasn't something out there, and we knew that we could have efficiency, I ended up becoming an entrepreneur at 25 and built a service organization.
In consulting, you had technology enabling IT services, where we progressed really quickly. And that was the first time I had sold a company at the age of 30. And so I always come back to what enabled me to do all that was the fact that I was constantly trying to find ways to have superpowers beyond what I was able to do in a human capacity. And it ended up being some form of technology that did it. And that's why I feel like it's important to listeners.
Andi Simon: Let me ask you a question as if I'm your audience asking you the question. Let's assume that we are like your Columbia students last night. What would be three things that are important for the listeners? Let's assume they're on the brink and they too want to soar. What is it they should look at and what should they see? How should it feel? What are we thinking about here, because you made an important point. It's not about being an engineer, it's not about the details of AI or machine learning or robots. It's a bigger picture that you're preaching. And if I hear you, which is that society is going through a great transformation, it's almost as big as the introduction of farming or fire or in the transformation. But if my audience is like your students, some of your observations would be very helpful to share your thoughts.
George Swisher: So I will try to do three. One would be understanding what information you can not get your hands on today? I always love this idea of this concept, and there's a company that's called What If. They've done a great idea just to sit in a room and go, What if I could gain access to this information? And whatever that is, right? Information we hear now is data or big data, just get rid of the words. Just think about information, if you could figure out what information would inform you to make better decisions so it doesn't matter what role you're in. If I can get information about currently, it's going to enable me to actually make a smarter decision whether I'm a frontline employee, manager, director, executive entrepreneur, it doesn't matter. So I think number one it is to focus on that: what information do you need that you currently can't get today? And then try to find where you can get that. And the reality is, there most likely is some way to get that. You don't always have to build it. But there is some way that you most likely can put two softwares together. That's where you work with your engineers and go, Hey, take these two things, and put them together and give me the output because that output is going to allow me to make a decision that's going to scale what I'm doing, do it faster, save money. I think that's that one piece of finding information.
Two is kind of the next step to that, which is, Is there a way that I can be more efficient in what we are trying to do. So if I'm a leader in an organization, I have one departmental kind of view, and then I understand what the company objectives are. How do I ladder up to that? Most of the people in the organization don't know how that works. There's huge limitations and where you can have efficiency. And I think efficiency is such a great, powerful tool, if you can figure out a way to get things done faster, more cost effectively, at a larger reach, you can have a greater impact. I think that is where you can turn information into a viable use. And so no matter what role you're in, if you can take those two things, and apply it before you make your decision and go, Is there information that I don't have access to? Can I get it? And then where's the efficiency in what I'm trying to do? Are there things out there that can help me do it more efficient, because then when you make your decision, you'll invest time, money, and resources behind those two things. Getting more information makes me make better decisions, being more efficient in the way we're trying to do something, which has a greater impact.
I think the third part I was mentioning before and the advice that we gave the group last night is actually at the same company that I had that technology awakening. After that happened, and I stopped, I told my general manager at the time, Hey, I'm going to leave school, I want to invest more time in learning technology. And I said, You know, how does my job affect you and your job and what the company is trying to get done? Because I want to make sure that I don't go anywhere. I just watched 18 people be let go and I don't want to be let go. So as innocent as that was, my general manager at a very big business said, Have a seat. I got to learn how my job fit in as one of the cogs of the whole big picture.
So as I continue to make decisions, I learned how this contributes to the bigger picture. Whether I agree with it or not, I think this is the ego you have to almost put aside. How do I fit into that bigger picture? Because I'm trying to fight my way up the ladder, how do I know what that ladder is and where I connect the dots? So I think that's the third advice. Third point that I would make is, If you can master those three things, you can become an incredibly effective leader, entrepreneur, decision-maker, which is where I personally believe that's where you want to invest your time. There are skills that you need to learn. But if you can master those three things, and know that technology fits into two of them, you can really move in the direction you want, better and faster.
Andi Simon: Let me ask you my slightly burning question. A number of years ago, I taught several times for healthcare strategists, Your data is talking to you, can you hear it? As I'm listening to you, the challenge that leaders have is understanding what the data is telling them, the information and insights. The challenge was an abundance of data, not necessarily at the time the tools to analyze it for them. It wasn't artificial intelligence that was doing data analytics and telling you what to do as a result. There was just raw stuff. And part of that was, How do I turn it into the right stories for the right people to listen to so that they could make the right decisions and act in the right way?
Think of a healthcare system. The stories they had to tell the C-suite were different from the ones they told the doctors, which were ones that were going to be different from facilities management, or from people who are going to be taking care of patients. They didn't understand that it wasn't one story. This was one pie chart. Those were the stories that they told, that affirmed what they already knew, not what the data was telling them. And they only found the data that conformed to that mind-story as opposed to transformed it.
So I found it was very challenging to help them understand that the data was telling them something different from what they believed to be true. The expression, The only truth is, there's no truth. Like you are now opening up a whole, I won't call it a can of worms, but an interesting opportunity for leaders to understand what the data, the technology, can provide for the things that you mentioned: scale faster, and save money. That's a whole new strategy. So how do we help them as leaders understand what's upon them? I bet you were having that conversation with your general manager when you said, I don't want to leave, what do I have to do? You're smiling at me. So share with the listeners your thoughts about how they really warm up to this new stuff? Don't be afraid?
George Swisher: I think bravery is an incredibly powerful emotion that can help you overcome a lot of things. And I think I feel that I was lucky because I was mentored that way to have that bravery and just go at things and take the risk. I think this is not an uncommon theme that leads to just being okay with failure. Sometimes you're gonna make mistakes and you can fail fast and fix it fast and learn from it. You know that speed is the critical part. And I agree with you in the sense that we are in information overload. There are so many different sources of data that people don't necessarily know what to do with that, and it's kind of just thrown at them. This is what you don't have access to, you figure out what to do with it. I think if you haven't been trained to look at data, it's difficult. I feel like this kind of led me to the current path of doing work similar to yourself and the consulting side.
The more I could understand how people were feeling or what was going on, specifically related to my objectives, the more informed I would be. If I give a tangible example, think of employee engagement surveys. This has been a hot button for five, six years: post surveys, all that stuff. It's great, but it is a ton of information. And a lot of times I feel like teams are getting that information from a manager for a department that came from the HR team and so forth. They're having to interpret it and relate it to what they're actually responsible for as the decision maker. This to me is the breaking point. That can we're opening up to say, information is important, but I want information specific to what I'm responsible for. And if I'm in a role that's connected to also what the company is trying to achieve, get rid of the noise and just give me that information so I can make effective decisions.
So in a professional setting, I think that is where we have gotten to a stage. Let's take the healthcare example. What if something could actually tell you if you had an objective, which was to improve patient care. But as broad as that is, which is usually what objectives look like, super, super broad, there was a defined what is considered a good outcome and a bad outcome. If I'm the leader that's responsible for improving patient care, if I define that improving patient care, a good scenario, and outcome would be that our patients are so happy when they leave here that they make sure that their family members come back here, as basic as that sounds. A bad outcome is people check out of your hospital early and file lawsuits against us because they think that we are not treating them correctly. Let's just say that that's the two ranges we're working with.
If I was the person responsible for putting tactics in place, so hiring people, putting new tools in place, better processes and procedures, if I could know how all of the people who affect that decision, so think of the facilities teams, think of the technology teams, they took the doctors and the patients, these are data streams, if I could analyze those data streams and say, Wow, within this specific hospital versus this other hospital, we're scoring on the negative side of that outcome. But in this facility, we're scoring on the positive side. Where would I concentrate my money and my resources and my time? The facility that had the positive information vs. the one that had the negatively reporting information coming back? This is what technology has advanced us to today that we can actually figure out by looking at different communications how relatable that communication is to a specific objective that I'm responsible for. And it can rate that communication. And if it's closer to the good or the bad outcome, you can get that instantly.
Andi Simon: I love what you're saying. It isn't about that individual who is attempting to make sense out of the data, turn it into information and make insights out of it. The technology is able to assess the data information and create the insights so that you're wiser. Because then the technology now is your partner in this, not simply a servant delivering raw stuff, that you've got to cook, am I correct?
George Swisher: You're right. You have the ability now as a leader to tell the technology what you lead. An example of that was like an objective and a good outcome and a bad outcome. If I tell the technology to only give me information back contextually related to that, and then tell me what's good and bad, because I already told you what the range was, how powerful would that be? In any decision that you were making?
Andi Simon: Well, it takes away all of the complexity and uncertainty as long as you trust the data collected. The endless agony in healthcare we're having is that the doctors are very fast at discounting the data. And now the technology has to build the trust that it's great data and not bad data. Because I've been with too much poor data, people who are trying to convince not just the doctors, but the leadership, that the story that they're crafting is correct, not just "trust me." The uncertainties and unknowns become threatening to people who have very different stories in their minds about what the data ought to look like and what they believe to be true.
You are developing content. We talked a little bit about what you've developed because I do think it offers a very powerful solution since I work with companies that need to change. One of the challenges is how we are changing. Talk a little bit about your platform because I think change force has enormous power, and people should be aware of it and people should start to think about how to use it.
George Swisher: Let's talk about the mission that we're trying to do and I think it relates back to what we were just saying. Let's use a different topic other than something in healthcare. Your book you wrote about women progressing in the business and leadership role, I think is a great, great topic. Our mission is to help leaders be more informed of the sentiment around the objectives they are trying to achieve in a very specific lane. There are all different ways that companies like yours, persons like yourself, and companies, are trying to help build better change processes of how you get things done. We just want to be able to inform that process with very meaningful information.
So the way that we have focused that mission as the starting point has been where we can analyze communication platforms such as Slack, Microsoft Teams, employee engagement, survey data, emails, things like this, where our software, using artificial intelligence, natural language processing, is able to contextually understand the messages that are inside of those Slack channels, and how relatable they are to the objectives you're trying to achieve. So let's just say that we know that diversity, equity inclusion is a huge topic inside most organizations. Let's just say they have one of those objectives around empowering women to be better leaders and availability of being leaders inside the organization. You define a good outcome and a bad outcome. A good outcome is we are open and have every resource available to empower women to get through the ranks and become leaders in the organization. A bad outcome is we have complete roadblocks, biases and all these things are going on.
Our software can actually analyze all those communication channels, contextually map and say, These are the conversations that are related to that specific objective around empowering women to become leaders in the organization. And it will read it from a score of A to F. Just go back to grade school above where those communications sit. So you have the ability to understand the specific contextual sentiment, not just negative positives. It's hard to kind of figure out what that means. If I know that good has a specific, measurable piece, and bad has a measurable indicator, and this is sitting in that range, I can understand what that means, as the decision maker. And the way that we've done it is, we allow our customer to compare that set of information across all different types of indicators.
For example, you know locations, or, you know roles within the organization, employee type, almost any type of information stored in the human capital management software. It's like the workdays of the world. You can slice that data and go, Okay, well, I can see in this empowering women to be leaders in our organization, our scoring has been over in this region, or this department, or this age range of our company. And over here we are scoring an F. So the idea is that we're just trying to figure out what's going on.
What we've been able to see now is, especially with the pandemic, it's forced people to use more digital communications. Some companies are upwards of 90% of their communications that used to be verbal and in person is now some form of digital communication. We now can read that communication, and just give you some indication of where the barometer is today, and then track it over time. So if you make decisions to say, Okay, well, this one department is scoring in the D level around this. We need to put some training in place or some new processes or some new people in place. Our software actually does that analysis over a period of time so we can tell you whether it got better or worse. As you made a decision today, 30 days from now, it can see if that contextual sentiment got better or worse as you put those changes in place.
Andi Simon: George, let me ask you to clarify just for my sake. Way back in Algebra 101 many, many too many years ago, the professor said, Out of context, data does not exist. And what I hear you saying is that we've been able to take through the technology that artificial intelligence, machine learning, all of the communication being done, and contextualize it. So we understand its meaning, and can give you insights into the conversations taking place around diversity, equity and inclusion, using that example. Am I correct to what I just said? And that is powerful, because data by itself has no meaning. So now the question is, an individual isn't contextualizing it. Artificial intelligence is putting it into context. And you're comfortable that it's doing it in a very accurate and insightful fashion.
George Swisher: How fascinating. And this came back to your healthcare example, which is the trust of the data coming in. And so from today's state, the biggest advance that we've seen is the ability for natural language processing to start to truly contextualize data. Whether it's images, whether it's audio, whether it's text...doesn't matter. And that's what we are leaning into. Now, that is only as smart as the sources of data it's analyzing, where it's going in the future to continually build trust by adding more data.
For example, within our software, connecting to communications is one kind of viewpoint. But if we then connect to task management software, we connect to Glassdoor reviews. We connect to company social media channels. We connect to performance reviews. So at every one of those data points, the great thing about the technology now is, it kind of works like our brain, where it can cross-reference multiple data points to come to the conclusion of what that sentiment score is. So it's almost validating what it believes. It thinks from the Slack message against what it read in a task inside of a task software and what it saw inside of the performance review. That to me is where the trust factor will just continually get better for humans under the realization that technology can process information and contextualize it faster and better than we can at some point because it can process so much information that we can't.
Andi Simon: I sometimes get emails that I simply don't understand what they mean. And unless you understand that, meaning is not simply in the words or the sentence, but the underlying implications, meaning the feeling that's there. And so what you're telling me is that by pulling together all of these data points, we can in fact, contextualize the conversations going on and understand them. That is, maybe I will say, very true, very powerful, and weird. I mean, they're sort of like, I can't figure out what you just emailed me, I better call and find out what you meant. And I can't tell if you were angry, or happy or sad or frustrated. In the five words are the sentences that you put together, but the AI can do it better than I can. Now that is one powerful system.
George Swisher: That's where the future state is. It will be able to contextualize it better than we most likely can. We're not there yet but it's getting there and it's advancing quickly. Part of what we do to train, if it's accurate or not, is to validate the response from a human. So in that same example of empowering women in leadership in an organization, let's say that it scrubbed all of the Slack or MSTN channels you have and it makes it a C. Well, we can actually open it up to let you know that leaders in the organization agree or disagree with that and score it with a B and it will train the model to get smarter the next time it tries to analyze another Slack message. And so you have this validation. That is where we will start to build trust as human beings without knowing it through the validating AI driven technologies. The biggest example of this is, most people have used some kind of support bot before. The support bots says, Did we answer your question? You say, No, you didn't. And here's what you didn't do. It is actually training the model to do an excellent contextualization that takes into account what you said.
Andi Simon: I'm sitting here smiling. We're just about out of time, but I'm sorry, it's hard enough for humans to communicate well. Now we're adding something that might help us do a far better job of communicating well because we'll better understand. We all know the situation where I say one thing to you, and then I go and type something to someone else. The complexities of human beings in an AI world, and it is truly going to be a wonderful future. I was going to ask you what you see coming, but I have a hunch, I already know what's coming. In a sentence or two, what's your future prediction?
George Swisher: I feel like the future isn't that we're going to be replaced by robots or technology, I think that we will become almost like superheroes. We're going to be able to attach technology to us that will make us incredibly smart or powerful. And I think that's where this is going to meet. And there are some people who are trying to physically do that. You know, Elon Musk has got some interesting things going on. Whether we morally believe he should be doing it or not, but feeding these contextual data sources and things like this directly into our bodies, and our brains, I think is where it is actually going.
Andi Simon: The coevolution that's happening is making us realize that from the time we became meaning-makers, 50,000 years ago, we have been creating the environments in which we live. We're the only species that's completely global. But there's still one of us and 40,000 species of ants, but somehow we keep changing ourselves, and our minds and bodies are evolving. And this is going to be a really interesting next phase that we're unsure of. But we've always been unsure. And now the trick is, how do we stop for a moment and say what role do I want to play with this? You can’t resist, you can get so attached to that shiny object, you won't leave it. But the world is changing. And it would really be cool if you let go and began to lead forward, because I do think we're going to need some real smart people to help us leap forward like yourself.
George Swisher: I think my last point would be, we went through this you mentioned earlier, it's kind of like industrial evolution. Think about if you were here, 150 years ago, when we had industrialization for cars.Imagine how afraid people were that it was turning the horse and buggy into a machine. And we're no different than that, we just evolve with it. I think that's the fear, we all just need to remember that we constantly have been in this state. This is just a different type of state. And we just need to be okay with that.
Andi Simon: Well, and I do think once you get okay with it, it's really quite exciting. Then to your point, for 4,000 years, we rode horses, and then came this car. And next thing you knew, they were putting barbed wire and throwing rocks into it, they were terrified of this car. And now we're getting electric vehicles that are autonomous. Who knows where we're going next? So welcome to the world of humans. George, thanks so much for being here. I'm not going to ask you three things for people to remember. But I am going to ask you, How they can reach you if they'd like to know more about what you're doing. Because I think that the whole conversation today is about all the things that we don't want them to forget. And I do think this is a time where the technology, the person, and the way we live is all through great transformation. So you've got to pay attention and lead on. How can they reach you?
George Swisher: I think the best way is to reach me at George Swisher on LinkedIn, or George@changeforce.ai. Those are the two best ways to get to me and I'm happy to continue this conversation with anyone. I think my effort is to help share what we've learned, not to sell software. So whatever we can do to help. Nabil and I both always have that same kind of educational angle.
Andi Simon: You are a perfect guest on our podcast because our job is to get off the brink and help people soar by helping them see, feel and think in new ways. And to be honest with you, I don't think this is an incrementalist time. This is a transformational time. It's not doing a little better. And what we used to have, it's a battle, a whole new way of doing things. And I am excited to share your thoughts and to help people realize that they don't have to just get stuck.
People keep asking when they're going to go back to what was. And I tell them, They're just not coming back. But neither are we sure what's coming next. So enjoy the journey. It's a great time to be alive and enjoying a whole new way of seeing things. Thanks again. For all of my listeners, thanks for coming to On the Brink. My job is to help you get off the brink to help you see, feel and think in new ways. You can read my books: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights on Amazon as well as Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business.
To George's point, our job is to help us smash those myths that are holding people back, women in particular, and open up the door because we are transforming the way our society both embraces women or not, and then begins to realize that the world is changing. So let's all get behind it and move forward. You can reach me at info@Andisimon.com. And I love your emails. We're in the top 5% of global podcasts. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Refer more people to us like George. They are great and they bring us great joy. Thanks, George for being here today.
Hear why a great customer experience means everything
I am always excited to share a great woman’s story with you, our audience. Melissa Copeland is a great woman to know. She had a wonderful career, as so many women have had, only to discover that flying all over the world was not great for her family, or even herself. She pivoted and launched Blue Orbit Consulting, which allowed her to refocus her attention on clients closer to home and on projects dear to her heart—like improving customer interactions for her customers. Our conversations roam all around the challenges she, and I, see among our clients as their customers are changing, service expectations have dramatically shifted (where fast means right now), and staffing has become an uphill climb, to say the least. What to do? Call Melissa, who brings her expertise in organizational transitions and interpersonal growth and development to the task at hand. Clients love her approach, and I think you will as well. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
At SAMC, the topic of culture change is one we know a great deal about
What I enjoy when I have someone like Melissa on the podcast is how we can share our ideas, experiences and know-how and continue to learn from each other. You can certainly read in my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, how frustrating it is for companies, then and now, to address the core service imperative of their organization’s business. My hope is that you take away some great ideas and great learning around how to step back and look at your own business with fresh eyes, and see where you need to make some changes that will make all the diference. If you'd like to reach out to Melissa, you can connect with her on LinkedIn or her website BlueOrbitConsulting.com, or email her at melissacopeland@blueorbitconsulting.com.
More about culture change and how to motivate your employees to love their jobs
- Blog: How's Your Culture? Doing Fine Or In Drastic Need Of An Overhaul?
- Podcast: Marcella Bremer—Build a Better Business With an Amazing, Positive Culture
- Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, as you know, I’m Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. My job is to get you off the brink and I go looking for people who have really interesting ideas to share with you to help you see, feel and think in new ways. That's why today I have Melissa Copeland. And Melissa is here to talk about the customers of tomorrow, and how to serve them. But what's really interesting is her own journey and what she sees going on in the market, and how she can help you see it through that fresh lens that I want you to have. Remember, time to get off the brink, and the times they are changing. So let's soar together. Melissa, thank you for joining me today.
Melissa Copeland: Thanks for having me.
Andi Simon: Share with the listeners, who is Melissa and when and how did you get to where you are now? And why are you so interested in it? Please share your story.
Melissa Copeland: Sure, it's a wandering path, but I think many people have those nowadays. It was less common when I started working, but I actually started as a documentary producer producing travel documentaries and traveling around the globe doing that which I love. It didn't take long, about two years, for me to learn that it was really hard to afford my rent and lunch and a bus pass on the salary a documentary producer makes. So I went to business school, and business school wasn't at all what I expected. It was much more of a structured education versus some of the intellectual inquiries that I was expecting to find. So if there is such a thing, it sounds like an oxymoron, but I was a bit of a countercultural business school student coming out of grad school.
I landed in a job in strategy at what was then Ameritech, now AT&T. I was sent to one of the wholesale divisions. So think of the really technical engineering, kind of in the more old-fashioned parts of the company. And here I was, this kid who had been a documentary producer. And my background was in history and writing. And I learned to speak engineering, and I learned to speak pension. I had more fun than I ever thought I would in the corporate world. So I was rotated in the seven years that I was there, through almost every functional area. I got a taste of strategy, sales, marketing, and wound up doing two types of international assignments. One was a startup based in Chicago. And the second was an assignment based in Brussels, Belgium for two years. And those were amazing.
A couple of the things that I really learned was that the language of business is really one of figuring out how to connect with people, and how to define problems, and then organize toward a solution, whether it's through collaboration, whether it's through directing, or self-directed teams, or any of those pieces. And so one of the things I didn't expect that I've used my entire career since then, was during that time in Brussels, the techniques that you learned growing up in the United States to influence people with money, or sales incentives, or performance incentives, didn't work the same way in a different culture and context. And that notion of what is my culture and context? And how do I get the results I need?
One of the things I learned was, in the US, if you wanted to get something done, you have a meeting, you divide up the tasks, and everybody goes in, does it. In the situation I was in, in Brussels, if you had a meeting, the way to get people engaged was to give everybody the opportunity to participate in the brainstorming, right? So no matter what it was, if you call it brainstorming, people were highly engaged, because everyone wanted a piece of the ideas and to really feel like, what would they be called, an influencer, but to really be part of the solution, and then folks would happily go and participate in terms of behavior change. So that has actually become a signature part of the consulting I do today.
Some from that role, I moved through a couple of different roles, but I stayed in that arena of really working on customer experience and employee experience, and helping folks move through changes that almost always benefit customer experience and customer loyalty. And that's when I would say my love affair with customer service and contact center organization started.
Andi Simon: You formed your company Blue Orbit Consulting in 2014. Typically, I would start any interview like this and read your résumé. But I really prefer you to talk about this journey because it's a setup for what's happened since you set up your own company. So how did you come about? Your insights are extremely valuable today. We don't motivate people by giving them more money that doesn't do anything for the research work. You can give them more money, but it doesn't mobilize them. It doesn't motivate them. It's not what makes them work. There's something that took you from being inside to being a consultant having your own company. What was the catalyst?
Melissa Copeland: So I worked for many years for a consulting firm called The Northridge Group and helped build the firm, and was able to be the generalist moving across a lot of areas. The firm had tremendous success. And I have one of those hard learnings. After about 12 years there, my kids were eight and five, and I was continuing to travel almost every week. And no matter where I was, I was on the wrong continent for somebody. And we got to a point where more often than not, it was my kids, you know, or team members or clients. But it really became a challenge that it was my kids that were on the wrong side of that. So I left and I wasn't sure what I was going to do. And that lasted, that break lasted about two months.
And we learned that I was terrible at carpooling, that I hated doing laundry, and got rid of all of our household help. But, former clients and colleagues started calling with projects and saying, hey, you've always been really good and helped me think through hard problems, will you come help me do this global technical support? Will you come take a look at this process problem in my organization? And that's fundamentally how Blue Orbit was born.
So in 2014, I formed Blue Orbit. It was just me, and a couple of high school and college babysitters taking care of my kids, you know, before and after school. And as the firm grew, I really drove more focus around not just taking every phone call, though anyone that calls and says, can you help me think through this hard problem, I really enjoy hard problems. So I'm happy to help think them through, but really, drove more focus around the pieces that I think are really important as businesses grow and move forward. And that is thinking through not just the customer journey, and some of the buzzwords around that, but also thinking through the service design for how you support that customer journey, and more recently, a lot of emphasis around employee engagement.
So how do you make it easier on the employees to deliver the service design and a fantastic customer experience. So little by little, as the firm grew, it started being engagements with me and then I started building more team-based engagements to be able to implement at large organizations. Then we land where we are today where the business supports both some startup companies that are just starting on that journey. It's tons of fun when we have a blank slate, and you're starting with the service design from the beginning. And then the large organizations where you might have hundreds or thousands of people that you're trying to orchestrate. And then it's really more that collaboration and building a funnel of ideas for how can we accomplish the goals we need to get to.
Andi Simon: You and I both understand the complexity of human interaction and conversations. And the question is, what do we say to whom in what way to get what done? And that's not casual, and every culture is different. The culture is inside each one of these, small, large and otherwise, whether in Belgium or in the States, or whatever they are, and just do things differently. And your description of the Belgium folks who wanted some autonomy, mastery and purpose, which is what we're talking about these days, was quite different than here where command and control tell you what to do, and tactical and practical, and not much gets done. So it's an interesting time. So some of the insights that you're pulling together, working over the last years, 2014 was a short long time ago. And between the pandemic and all the things going on with technology and customer transformation, there's some key themes that you and I chatted a little bit about. Can you share them with our listeners or our audience? I do think they are going through them and they want to know, what do I do now? How do I do this? Some thoughts?
Melissa Copeland: Sure. I love how you you reference the autonomy and the mastery. One of the pieces that I first tried to size up is that culture and context and organization. I do feel compelled typically to look at data, because you always have people in your team or your organization that need to be data driven. And then we also have to look at some of the more qualitative aspects of what does it take to drive change, like, are we talking about a jello situation where you're going in and going back out? Are we talking about a situation where people are highly receptive to doing things differently?
Some of the themes and particularly changes since 2020, a big one affecting a lot of organizations, whether we call it the great resignation or not, but the balance of power has shifted in terms of employees making choices about where they want to be. And so I challenge that many large organizations and in particular contact centers are dealing with the vacancy rate in roles that may be as high as 30%. So I have two clients right now that are down about 30% of people. And that puts enormous pressure on the organization and its ability to serve customers.
To that end, there are two big themes that I've been working with a lot of clients on. One is the theme around, what if the customer isn't always right? And so how do you handle that? The first studies I've seen in years, probably as long as I've been working in customer experience, started coming out in the fall, illustrating a significant change in customer behavior, meaning, historically, customers really cared about that the agent I spoke with was friendly, were they pleasant, so we'll call that friendliness. And then they care about, is my question answered, or has my problem been resolved?
The shift in the research over the past six months is that customers care much more about how fast something happens. So the friendliness isn't at the top anymore, although I'd say it's table stakes in most organizations, it's really how quickly can you get to my question, or get me an answer. And can you do it in the media that I choose to interact with you in? So can you do it by voice? Can you do it by self service? Can you do it by chat? What are the different ways that I can connect with you? So that's one huge arena.
The second that combines the two, getting answers quickly, and then struggling with kind of making the workplace attractive for employees and making their roles easier. And so I'll call that the employee engagement or employee enablement tools. So in customer service, and contact center, lots and lots has been written and talked about around how artificial intelligence or AI is used in bots and self service so customers can do things themselves. The real frontier that I've been working with clients on for the past year, and I think it'll become bigger in the next two years, is really around how do you use that power to enable human-to-human interaction? So how do I help an agent, right, be as quick and effective with a customer that wants to interact by voice? Or they have a question or a challenge that's too complicated for the self service arena and so how do you deploy those tools on the market in a way that really makes the agent's job easier, and makes employees feel like they can succeed in a difficult environment, or ultimately make that environment better? So I'd say those are the two big ones that I've been working with folks on that I think are the trends that are here to stay for at least 2022 to 2024.
Andi Simon: As a culture change expert, I'm curious, because I had one client who had a very bad help desk. And we actually suggested they go and make their folks remote before the pandemic. They were in a fabulous position when the pandemic hit. But the remote gave their staff a much better work environment and they lost the turnover. They speeded up the responses and they realized that having them come in and sit and wait and have to get things done in place was dysfunctional for this particular organization. They were an outsourced service provider, but what was important was that the people thought about it in terms of what mattered to them. Where did it matter that they work? What hours could they work, as opposed to a box that they had to fit into, and that autonomy and mastery. They needed something to motivate them to mobilize them to want to do this as opposed to being forced into it. And so that became interesting.
My second point is that both consumers and employees are people. If you think of them as the same as very important people, then your customer and your staff are connected. It's not separate. And so now, if we step back and look at them as one ecosystem, it's no longer what the customer wants, it's how the employee and my customer can solve a problem together, collaboratively, as opposed to I'll do it in my time. You can't. It's really less adversarial or competitive and much more collegial. Are you seeing some of the same things?
Melissa Copeland: Absolutely. So I think one of the really interesting takeaways is, remote work is something that has been talked about for a long time. And then companies that explored it particularly for contact centers or tasted different pieces of it in very targeted areas. The pandemic forced folks to do it on a mass scale. And what many organizations found was no productivity was lost. What they had to do, though, was figure out how to recreate some of the cultural aspects that existed when you brought people together.
It's a great example you give around the IT help desk because one of the bigger satisfiers for folks that work in centers are being able to have hours that they can manage more effectively. And so for a center, the benefit is that they can have more people working part time or split schedules or different approaches. And for employees, you've removed the transit piece. So they're more open to working. So I think those are often terrific solutions.
And it's interesting to see organizations work through what's here to stay because when folks flipped the switch on March 2020, right, all the old processes went with them. There's a really interesting opportunity for organizations that are willing to take a hard look. It's one, I'll be honest, I thought it was going to happen in 2021 and it didn't happen that much around getting rid of some of the low value processes and activities. But I'm optimistic that this year will be the year that many organizations step back and say, we really need to do it that way, or can I make it easier on everybody. And then I don't think I can say it better than you did around the collegial approach to problem solving.
So it's typically a terrific scenario, when you can have an agent empowered to conduct a conversation the way they want to. And that requires a couple of things. It requires organizational trust, and having the metrics or ways to measure the effectiveness of a conversation that go beyond process compliance. So a traditional way of doing it was, here's the process and you're measured on how you follow it that doesn't drive the autonomy and mastery of that process. But it doesn't drive mastery of the customer interaction. And so seeing more organizations move toward some of the enablement tools that in order to allow agents to have the conversation that they want and need to have with a customer, you have to solve the problem.
It's very different to achieve the same goal. So an example of some of the cooler new tools that are coming into play is some of the same artificial intelligence technology that makes self service bots work can be deployed to help agents. So the bot can be sort of listening, if you will, to the conversation and picking up key words and tone from the customer. And then prompt the agent. Here are some documents that might help you. Here are the links and the reference material so that the agent can focus on the conversation, not zooming through multiple apps, or wikis or web links, to find the information they need. And that goes toward your point around, you can really drive a collegial situation more than you can an adversarial one. You give the employee a great shot at success versus the employee feels like they're on the front line.
Andi Simon: You raised a very important question. How do we evaluate, assess and appraise our employees? There was a great article that talked about how I never see them. I used to evaluate them based upon how I felt about it. I mean, some of the reaach proves that's how you evaluated them. It wasn't on their performance, per se, it was how you liked them or not. And so now they're having a difficult time knowing what to evaluate. It's not just compliance with a rigorous help desk script, or how fast you answer the phone, or how fast you solve the problem, or how the customer evaluated you. This is all experiential, and it's richer in many ways and more challenging to evaluate another.
I'm not quite sure how to tap into the customer satisfaction. What does that mean? l’ll give you one little speed thing. One of the CEO groups I was doing my research with, a gentleman in fertility centers said, it used to be that we could set up an appointment with someone interested in our methodology with a doctor, you know, over time. Now they want it immediately. And if I can't get the doctor to contact them immediately, however fast that is, they go somewhere else. And I say welcome to a world of instantaneous gratification. You know, they're ready right now. I want that conversation. And he said, I don't know how to put a young person in charge of it now, so they can appreciate what that young person is looking for because I can't figure it out at all. So now, my question for you is, as you're looking at this, how do we appraise the success of our customer service system? And what should people think about as they are evaluating their evaluation system?
Melissa Copeland: Those are great questions. So the first one is relatively straightforward. So when looking at the success of a customer service organization, or the customer experience, many of those metrics don't change, what changes is how you use them. So in terms of data, one of the fun things about contact centers is they usually have an overwhelming amount of data. So you can see how quickly our customers connect to the answer that they want. And you should be able to calculate how many times you're getting the customer the right answer the first time. If you can't calculate it, that's a great subject for us to talk about and brainstorm how to get to it. But you should know how often the agent is able to satisfy the customer. And when they can't, you need to divide into two groups, the things that are agent specific, and the things that are systemic.
So right, no agent could have solved it, because of other other reasons. So there's an overall framework for looking at how quickly am I serving the customer? And then, was the customer satisfied? And I would argue, most importantly, was their issue solved on the first call? That does push by the wayside some old metrics. So an older metric would be looking at how long it took. I, Melissa, typically, I don't care how long it took, if you did it right the first time and the customers were happy, we've avoided future calls and interactions that become more expensive and more time consuming. And we've made that customer of tomorrow happy because they have patience for very little and certainly not for mistakes or ongoing back and forth about the same issue when it comes to appraising the individual.
That also is something that I love, your example that is shifting, right. So it was always something where, when people were in the same place, you would see someone at their desk, you would see if they were working, and that vision that I can see you isn't there anymore. So that does drive more dependence on metrics. And it does drive more conversation with the individual. So one of the things that I'm seeing is more and more trends toward talking to people about how they feel. Yes, I've never had so many conversations about feelings. You know, I'm working with one client right now and we're doing a large transformation program. And a lot of our conversations are, do you feel competent? Do you feel empowered? What are the things you're struggling with? And how can I help you? So it is a much more honest move toward what I would call true coaching and development and away from some of the performance management.
And some of those organizations wind up being my favorite clients because they're really interested in elevating the business's performance and the people providing it. That doesn't mean you don't have to deal with some specific performance situations. But it's a very different philosophy around, let's look at your metrics, and let's talk about how to make them better. As opposed to, here's the threshold and that's where you have to be.
Andi Simon: I love what you're talking about. A great transformation, isn't it? Because slowly we are recognizing what can mobilize people. We're learning so much from the neurosciences, the cognitive sciences, everything from the curiosity quotient, and the emotional intelligence and all the ways the amygdala and the brain works and what really gets people excited about what they're doing. You couldn't have done this without the pandemic, generating this great transformation. And now we're changing how we're managing people, asking them to feel the way we'd like them to. People didn't know what those words meant before but now we decide with the heart and the eyes, and how it feels. How does it look? And then intellectually, we can look at the numbers that come out of that. It's interesting. One of the podcasts I did with Lisa McLeod was about purpose. And Joey Ryan's work on purpose, purpose-driven companies. If you have purpose with mastery and autonomy, you mobilize people to do far better, and any other kind of ratcheting down to data-driven metrics, the data comes from being happy. And that's not so terrible.
Melissa Copeland: I would add, though, that for many organizations, it's a really difficult shift. People have been rewarded for a long time for complying with the process, doing the right things, and being where you're supposed to be. There's enormous opportunity in this transformation. But there's also a lot of fear and support required. And so, I think the other interesting trend is, many organizations, whether you call it change management or organizational change management, or you just call it transformation, or I have been known to call it whatever I need to call it to get it done so we can call it process work. But really thinking through, how do you help people through that difference? Because particularly tenured employees will have a lot of trouble making the move.
Andi Simon: I want to add something and then we'll wrap, because the points you're raising for our audience are very important. We live the story in our mind. The way humans survive is that we create a story in our mind and that becomes our reality. And Melissa says something very important because the tenured employees have a story that registered well for them in the past. They really knew how to do that and keep their jobs and keep the boss satisfied. They played it really well, it was like a role on stage, where they knew how to play Macbeth really, really well. And now they have to play Hamlet. And they don't have a clue what the script is or how to perform. And it isn't that they resist the change, they don't really know how to. If you put them on stage and told them to play a new role, they don't know what to say or how to say it. They don't know how to behave with each other. They don't know what to expect. It's very scary legitimately.
And the brain hates to change, it's got a lot of cortisol floating around up there. So as you're looking at your employees, don't get angry. Figure out how to hire Melissa to come help you invent new ways to show them how to come to the new. We used to say, if you want to change, have a crisis or create one, because if not, your brain doesn't pay attention. I never expected this kind of crisis. I don't really want another one. But don't waste it. It's a great time. Listen, this is such fun, tell the listeners two or three things that you don't want them to forget.
Melissa Copeland: Number one, whether or not the customer is right, finding that collegiality and collaboration is critical to customer experience moving forward. So figuring out your service design and how to deliver it is absolutely paramount. The second point would be employee enablement, and letting employees lead but giving them the tools to do so. So freeing them from some of the process compliance of prior iterations is a terrific tool to do it. And you know, I'm happy to brainstorm or chat with anyone about those.
And then one more item that your last comment made me think of is, I myself had one of these epiphanies in November. My daughter and I went from Chicago to New York, and we saw Six on Broadway. And so for those that aren't familiar with Six, it's about the wives of Henry the Eighth, many of whom wound up decapitated or died of illness, had all these extraordinary adventures. And we brought my aunt with us. So we covered multiple generations, and my aunt knew the history better than anyone and loved the show for the history. My daughter loved the pop music, and the takeoffs of Beyoncé and Adele, and the music that was there, and I got about half of each, and still loved it. And so I think of that as inspiration for listeners. You don't have to be at any one extreme, but you do have to find a way to find some of the fun in it. And if you can find the fun, then you can move the culture forward.
Andi Simon: That's a beautiful metaphor for everything you do for life, in fact, because it is the same experience seen through very different eyes. The lenses were completely different. The story was exactly the same. You all sat in the same seats and watched it and had very different experiences. How better can we wrap up our conversation today? If they'd like to reach you, what's the best way to get ahold of you?
Melissa Copeland: I'm easy to find on LinkedIn, you can find me, Melissa Copeland, or my firm Blue Orbit Consulting, or by the website, theblueorbitconsulting.com.
Andi Simon: That's terrific. And we'll put all of this together on our blog. This is such fun, you and I could talk a great deal about the dilemmas and the opportunities. Remember, don't waste a crisis and you're coming out of a very unusual one, but this is a time that has pushed us to transformation, great transformations. Some of us love it and others can't figure out how to get back to what was, but you can't. I doubt we'll ever see what was, we don't even remember what it was. So it's hard to go back. But instead, it's a time to create your future. So don't waste it. It's a great time to do it. And this has been terrific today.
For all of you who come, thank you for joining us. You come from around the globe. I mean, we're ranked in the top 5% of global podcasts. I'm honored. You send me great people to interview. info@andisimon.com is where you can get to me. But the most important thing today that I'd like to share is, buy my books.On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. You can get them on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or wherever you like to buy books. But the point of the books is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And this podcast is here to do the same. My job is to help you get off the brink and soar. And sometimes you need a little catalyst, a little push, a little nudge because as we know, we get attached to that shiny object and we don't want to let go but the times are changing. So enjoy the trip. Stay well and enjoy your day. Have a good one. Bye now.
Hear how when teams work together, everybody succeeds You may have not paid much attention to the cultures inside law firms. Law firms are really no different than other firms. Some have strong cultures that seem to work smoothly. Others need a hand. One hand they often reach for is Amy Gardner, our interviewee in today's podcast. Amy is charming. A smart woman who has worked in law firms and now with them to help them reimagine their organizations and create teams that work better together than alone. In our conversation, you will hear ideas that are as relevant to your company or non-profit as they are to Amy’s clients. As we all try to navigate our new work culture, her story is well worth a listen.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
It doesn’t matter what type of company you have today—you need strong collaborative teams that are looking to help each other succeed
No longer can we all be competing for position, power and promotions. Today, we have to find ways to talk to each other, build relationships, and know whom to trust and count on. That is what Amy does so well. Connect with her on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and her website Apochromatik, or email her at amy@apochromatik.com.
Want to learn how to form better teams that work great together? Start here.
- Blog: How Storytelling Can Transform Your Culture And Energize Your Team
- Blog: How To Help Your Team Stop Mourning The Old And Love The New
- Podcast: Kathy D'Agostino—Can A Great Performance Coach Build Your Team And You?
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. And as you know, I'm your host and your guide. And my job is to get you off the brink. And I can't do that any better than by bringing wonderful people to you. Amy Gardner is one today who's going to tell you about some major things you should think about as we come out of a pandemic. But you know, this is not easy, and everybody's brains are fighting it. You don't quite know how to do it so you're making it up, not quite well. And I always believe in over-determining success. So if you can overthink what we're doing a little bit and begin to plan for it, and realize that not everyone's going to do it exactly the way you want. Then all of a sudden, you're going to find new ideas, turning into great new ways to work together.
Amy comes out of Chicago with lots of offices there looking for people to come back into them. I don't know, it's lonely at home, but it's easier. I have a client with 70 employees, all of whom don't want to commute, all kinds of things going on. But let me tell you about Amy so she can help you see, feel and think in new ways. That's our job because if you can see something and you can feel it, you'll decide, I can do that too. So that's what we want to share today.
Amy Gardner is a certified career development and career transitions coach. She'll tell you about that, and she's a team development and leadership consultant. The company she's with is Apochromatik. And she's going to say that better than I have. Her work draws on her unique experience as a Dean of Students at the University of Chicago Law School, which is pretty cool. And a successful career practicing law. At first, as a big law litigation associate and later as an associate and then partner at a midsize photographer, she received her BA from Luther College, her JD from the University of Chicago Law School and her MA in public policy from Northwestern University. Amy's got great credentials for you today. But the most interesting part is that she's working with people like you right now to help them see, feel, and think in new ways. The times they are changing. Amy, thank you for joining me today.
Amy Gardner: Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to be here.
Andi Simon: It's such a pleasure to meet you. Please tell the audience who's Amy Gardner? What's your whole journey been like? And how does that bring us to where we are today?
Amy Gardner: Well, I grew up in Ames, Iowa and my first jobs were working in Wisconsin delis, where I learned a lot about leadership and team development by running, wait for it, Big Kahuna Café at Noah's Ark Waterpark. America's largest waterpark, land of the free and home of the wave. It was a fantastic experience, actually. So after I graduated from Luther, I worked in political campaigns in Iowa before going to law school. And as you said, I graduated from law school and went straight into a large law firm. I worked at Skadden's Chicago office for just about five and a half, not quite six years. And then from there, I went to a midsize firm.
And when the opportunity arose to return to my law school as the Dean of Students, I really viewed it as an opportunity to better prepare students for the practice of law in ways that an excellent classroom education doesn't necessarily cover. And as part of doing that work, I kept talking to law firms that were saying, Wow, this is really great and nice things that you're doing. So I was talking to law firms to get them to subsidize the things I was doing. And the firm would say, We need this, we need this. And so finally I decided, okay, here's this opportunity. And so initially, our work was focused on legal employers, but now we work with lots of different industries. And my husband and I founded Apochromatik five years ago and we've been married for just over 20 years. And today, I get to work with smart people every day. I get to work with teams that want to be better. And I get to work with lawyers who want to love their careers more. So it's a pretty good gig.
Andi Simon: What a nice journey, what a nice balance. You know, learning comes from doing experientially as opposed from sitting in a classroom and hearing. And unless we've done it, we don't really know what it is. But these are very challenging times, I'm sure you're seeing. So tell us two things. One a little bit about what you do, how you do it, and a little bit about what you see going on in the markets today that can be helpful for others who are experiencing it. What do you do?
Amy Gardner: So about half my time is spent with our one-on-one and small group mastermind-to-attorney clients. And then the other half of my time is spent working with teams. It doesn't matter who I'm working with, the approach is always first to listen, to understand where people are coming from, and then to really collaborate with them to create solutions. And you know, when you're coaching an attorney on their career, you might be using a strictly coaching approach. But when it comes time to tell them what to do with their résumé, you're not coaching them, you're being very directive. And with a team, you're trying to understand the issues. The issues are often not what appears on the surface. And then you're working with the team members to improve the situation for everyone. And sometimes that involves one-on-one coaching with some leaders. Other times, it involves a series of group workshops, but it's fun, because you can see the results of your work. And because you never know.
When Keith and I are doing a workshop together, I often comment that it's a lot like riding a bucking bronco, right? You know in your mind how it might go and you've seen it before, but it's always going to be a different experience. And at the end, the goal is really just for the team to achieve their goals.
Andi Simon: So as I'm listening, I'm thinking about my own leadership academy, I have several. And in the process, the word "team" comes up often. But folks, fascinatingly enough, they may have played on a soccer team, or lacrosse team or a football team, but they're all different teams. And I use the metaphor of sports because it resonates. But I have a hunch, you see the difficulties without a general manager or coach or a model for people to know what it is. What is the goal? Why are we doing this? And on the other hand, being an anthropologist, I tell them, You can’t solo it, unless you have a group, call it a team, you can't get anywhere. Humans can’t do it alone. Maybe a little but not really. How do you build the right kinds of teams?
Amy Gardner: Well, to start, I think one thing that occurred to me as you were talking is, I don't know if you know Michael Hyatt, but he's been really influential on our business and very helpful. And Michael often says, Vision leaks. What we often see is that we might talk with the leaders of a team and say, what are the team's goals? and they can recite them in their sleep. But the average team member may feel as though the only real goal is to bring in more revenue, cut costs, and bring in more money. And so you really have to start with, what is the vision, and some of that is, of course, going to be handed down. But other vision needs to come from the people on the team. And because you can do all the trust exercises and communication exercises in the world, but if people aren't working toward at least some common goals that are a little bit more motivating than helping someone else become wealthier, they're not really going to get anywhere.
Andi Simon: That's an interesting way to talk about purpose and mission.
Amy Gardner: I remember when I was practicing law, I had a client where I had to keep going to New York every three weeks for this particular case. And it was a great case. But I was sitting at LaGuardia all the time. And the client made a comment to me that maybe he should name a condo for me. And I said, What do you mean? And he said, Well, every time we get a disbursement from this fund, my wife and I buy another condo because we're sort of building a compound of properties down in Florida. And I was like, wait, I'm spending...of course I was being compensated well for this, right? but you're thinking, I spent how many hours on the tarmac at LaGuardia and you're telling me that that's what this is about? I mean, it just has to be more motivating than that, right? And different things are motivating to different people. But you have to understand the members of the team, why they get up in the morning and who they are and what they have to offer.
Andi Simon: Well, but I'm laughing because often we really aren't sure what our job is, or its purpose and meaning. There's a huge great resignation right now, a huge discussion about young people wanting purpose. They don't just want profits. And I'm not quite sure, we haven't figured out that the young people are just telling others what it is that people really want, which is to have a purpose in life beyond simply a job. And it isn't working for someone, it is working with them. And what does that actually mean? So you have a really big business here. Are there some illustrative cases where you can show like the before and after or some of the challenges that you're facing? Because, you know, people have to visualize, not envision it, but visualize it because that's how we decide with our eyes and your stories, very powerful stories to share.
Amy Gardner: So let's talk about a team that we worked with not too long ago where we were approached because the new leader had inherited a team that was doing great in many respects, but he discovered they'd never had any sort of team development, nothing formal, never had a retreat, nothing like that. And so initially, our charge was just to come in and do something so that the team understands it's a new day and the new leader really cares about this development. But everything's great. So as we start talking to people, we learn that in fact, there are a couple members of this, again, very high functioning team in a very well known company, who these two members hadn't spoken to in 10 years. And I mean, imagine if you are in a large company, and you are a senior leadership team and two members don't speak.
It doesn't matter how great the numbers are, and how lovely the human beings are but, there's still that what is happening here. And there had been a recent situation where the communication was so siloed, that one person is sitting in a meeting, and overhears the engineering team talking about a new development and realizes or should have realized they better talk to the IP folks but doesn't connect them. Because it just doesn't occur. And none of these were disasters, right? It's kind of like, oh, yeah, they didn't let us know, now we got to scramble. Oh, yeah, those two don't talk. But whatever, it's their deal.
But when you can get to the root causes, and when you can address those things that just brings in a new lightness. It just makes people happier logging out for those interminable zoom meetings, right? If it's people that you actually don't mind spending time with, and you understand where they're coming from, and it was great because at the end of the engagement, we were told it was a resounding success. And more than that, we also saw just how people were talking when we did an icebreaker.
The very first of four workshops, people had no engagement, like wondering, Why do we have to do this. And by the end, people are excited. On their own, people had come up with a schedule so everybody would have coffee with everybody else at least once a quarter to get to know each other better. All these sorts of things that we all know in our heads we should be doing, but you get so busy with all the meetings and all the things that you can check off your to-do list, that so often it's those personal relationships, and the developing the team and developing the leadership within the team that just gets set aside for the next quarter, right?
Andi Simon: Let's dig into this a little bit because we do a lot of cultural change work. Humans have only survived because of groups. It's a really interesting phenomenon, set people off on their own in the wilderness, and they don't quite know what to do. But you know, you put them in these cubicles, or these jobs, and they really don't know what to do either. They do what they do to keep their job and to feel they have some reason for being there. You went to LaGuardia and sat on the tarmac, you weren't quite sure the purpose or the meaning. But you did it, you made a nice income. And that seemed to be what the job was supposed to be.
But now we're at a point where people are asking some profound questions, particularly as we're coming back from being remote. Particularly, Why are we together? And why is being remote so unhealthy for humans, because it is. The incidence of illness goes up, and that’s not just COVID. People experience anger, loneliness that turns into all kinds of psychological and behavioral health issues. We're supposed to be critters, we're herd animals. We're supposed to hang out together, supposed to tell stories with each other. But the trend is now to begin to see this as valuable, not incidental.
And now the question is, well, it's valuable, but I don't know how to do it. You don't know how to talk to each other. You don't know how to set up some time to have coffee together. It's like we're working with a bunch of children, as opposed to grownups. They need new habits to be formed. And habit building takes 30 days or plus or minus, you gotta keep doing it before it becomes ingrained. As you're watching the reemergence of people going back into the office, I've been dying to ask you, what do you see happening? Are some working well, some not? Where are there opportunities for others to benefit from what your insights are?
Amy Gardner: I think one of the things that you have to remember if you're asking people to come back to the office is that you can't ask them to come back to the office just to sit on zoom all day. And this is something that we're seeing again and again. Particularly for offices, where for good safety reasons, they only want a certain percentage of the people there on any given day, then the people who are in the office are often just in their office on zoom with people who aren't there. There has to be a reason to be back in the office. I mean, if you want me to get on the L or get on the subway or drive somewhere and pay for parking to go in there, there should be a reason, right? And especially as we've seen, so many people have moved farther away from their offices over the last two or three years to get out of inner city cores and move into suburbs and stuff where they have yards and things like that.
I have a client who she and her husband have a couple of little kids and they moved an hour and a half from downtown Chicago and now they both are expected to be coming back into downtown Chicago. And it's like, what does that do to your life? This is a choice they made but if all of a sudden they add a three hour commute, three hours of commuting each day, so there better be a reason to be in the office. And I think the employers who put out doughnuts or a box breakfast to welcome everybody back one day, and then think it's going to go back to the same way. This is a real opportunity to reset, and smart leaders are taking advantage of that opportunity to reconsider.
Do we need to be here every day? Do we need to have more open work spaces? Do we need to have fewer open workspaces? Some people have learned that they can concentrate better without the chaos around them, right? Should we rethink what we were doing for backup childcare? If people's kids are suddenly out of school because of a COVID exposure, how do we want to support them? This is a real opportunity. I was talking to someone the other day, and we were both talking about what if employers think about it, and leaders think about it in terms of not going back, but how can we go forward from here. I think that reset, and that reframe can be really helpful and thinking through what kind of workplaces we want to have.
Andi Simon: Yes, well, I'll add to that, because I've been doing research on what does work mean and what is the workday. I coached a bunch of folks who during the COVID period early on were now at home, and they were trying to figure out what is work? They were really delighted to be able to take a morning meeting and get the wash done. Then take a noon collaboration with their colleagues or friends. Then they could work at eight or nine at night when the kids went to bed. And they were saying, what is work? When do we do work? There were profound questions about the transformation that was opening up opportunities, unfamiliar in the past, but really important ones about what is the meaning of work. Where do we do it?
And then that wonderful little article that I saw of the gal who finished at one o’clock and said, Well, pay me to 5 o'clock because I have nothing else to do. And her question wasn't about her willingness to do more but what I had to do, I did it fast. Don't penalize me for being efficient. But how do you reward me? What does this mean, in terms of what I do? Now, this is different from being on a factory floor where the machines keep going. But so much of our societies are our knowledge workers. We're managing their minds and their time. Now, the question is, do we manage them? Are they managing us? Are they all gig economy folks? It's a real interesting time. What do you see?
Amy Gardner: I think one of the complications of people working at different times throughout the day is the brain science tells us that you actually need more extended periods away from work for your brain to relax. And so if you decide, I'm going to work another segment from 6pm to 9pm, fine, but then your brain can only reset from 9pm until you start again. You don't have that extended time off. And particularly with weekends, we've seen that a lot, and it just leads to more burnout. But there's also the effect that if you are a leader who decides that works for you, great. But if you are then sending an email at eight o'clock at night, and not scheduling it to go out tomorrow morning, then you are sending messages to your team. And so what might work for you and be great for you, you have to think about how that's affecting other people.
And we worked with a team where a number of changes had been made to accommodate parents who were trying to supervise homeschooling kids, which, thank goodness they did. Of course, they need to do that because you cannot have six-year-olds trying to school themselves at home without supervision, right? I think we can all agree that was a good thing. But what happened was that it didn't acknowledge that other people on the team might have other activities that they prioritized. And because things have been shifted to later in the day, we talked with one person who said, Look, you know, I don't have kids, I don't feel like I can say anything. But throughout the pandemic, the one thing that has kept her going has been this one workout that she was doing online, five or six o'clock every day. And because they shifted things back, she couldn't do that. And she didn't want to say, My workout isn't as important as supervising the next generation of our leaders, right? But it was really causing consternation and frustration for her.
So some of it is creating an environment where everybody can say, Hey, I know this isn't the same, but I sure would like it if we could, you know, honor my activity and my priority right now. So I think that some of the flexibility has been great in a lot of ways. I worked remotely right after I got out of college when I was working for political campaigns. And let's just say that remote work in 1998 was a lot different than it is now. And then I worked remotely for a national legal nonprofit organization when I left the law school, and now with our business we've worked from all over the world. And I've seen some of these changes, I've made all the mistakes there are, I think, at different points. And we have to allow ourselves to experiment and understand. It doesn't have to stay the same way, but some of these things that can seem great in the moment, once you get going and do them for weeks and weeks and months and months, may not be a long term solution for everyone.
Andi Simon: That takes me to the point, Is going into the office necessary? You just raised a very important point. I want to have people think about the complexity of that person who's working with you, and give them the right or the option to work in ways that make sense to them. Because as you follow the logic, is going back into the office the solution? It is a very profound question about how we are going to invent the next stage. Because to your point, some worked, some didn't, so what have we done? It's going to happen all over again. And how do I measure working? Is it working or not? How will we know?
Amy Gardner: We've seen that there are some generational differences among some teams about being in the office. I just spoke with somebody, maybe a week ago, who had a lot of resentment and said, Look, they were fine with me working from home when they were either going to have no one work, or we were all going to work from home, right? And now they don't want people working from home. I mean, it is this thing of everybody pitched in and could work from home and readjust.
If you think back to March 2020, nobody got to say that's correct. And so if you have team members who pulled it off and have done a good job, for you to turn around and say, Oh, we have a blanket policy. Of course, people are going to be frustrated, right? And especially right now where you can have other options. We were involved in a common mentoring program and one of the people I've been fortunate to work with in that program went to his boss and said, I'm really burned out. I've been working all these hours and I need something to give. And her response was to talk about how she works on weekends. And this is somebody who's in high demand, who sent out two résumés and got two interviews, right? I mean people have other options and they've always had other options. But it's much more stark now, I think. And so some of it is employers have to figure out what works for the workplace. But they've got to be reasonable about it. And everybody's definition of reasonable might be different based on where they're sitting.
Andi Simon: In the work that we do, and I suspect in yours too, we think about it backwards. That platinum rule, do unto others as they want to be done to. And that little illustration you had, you couldn't care less if you work weekends, a couple of weeks off without any penalty to go on a hiking tour or something that made sense. So let's flip this a little bit around and not get so angry that the employees are defining what it is that we will be doing. You can't do without them. I mean, I often talk about leaders needing followers because if you don't have anyone following you, you can't lead anywhere. And so don't diminish the power of that follower. They will either embrace you or they will abort you. And those are the two folks who didn't talk to each other. This is such fun. So we're about ready to wrap up. Please share two or three things that you'd like our listeners not to forget. Because we tend to remember the ending even better than that lovely beginning. What should they remember?
Amy Gardner: I think one thing to keep in mind is that just because you did it one way before doesn't mean you can't get a fresh start. And so if you can seize this as an opportunity to reconsider how things are working, whether it's in your own career or whether it's with a team that you're leading, or a team where you are a member of the team. This is an opportunity for everyone to pitch in, and reset and consider what we want things to look like.
And I think the second thing is to give yourself and the people around you some grace. None of us have ever come back from being home for two years before. None of us have been here before. And so it is very much giving each other grace and understanding that different people have had different things happen over the last two years. I've said many times, we're all in the same storm, but we're not in the same boat. And so the staff person who has not had backup childcare and may have lost a family member in the last two years is in a very different position than the person who may have moved to their vacation home and had lots of space, maybe been with a spouse and without small children running around. It's just a different experience. So give everybody including yourself some grace.
And then the last thing is to get help. There are lots and lots of resources. You can start by sitting and listening to Andi's podcast for a day. How much could you get out of that. But there are so many things, so many resources out there that you can draw on. You do not have to go through this alone if you really want to seize this moment.
Andi Simon: I love Amy's point. You got to seize the moment. It is a really unusual gift to you to rethink, reboot, redesign, but figure out what matters to you. And I often use a little exercise. What do you want to do more of or less of? You make a list. And every time I do that with the folks I work with, they say, Oh yes. Nobody's stopping you from doing more of that, or doing less of this. You got to take control of what you're thinking. Your mind does exactly what it thinks it wants you to do and the habits take over. It's a time for you to rethink what you're doing and have a good time doing it. Why not? If people want to reach you, where can they do that?
Amy Gardner: You can always find me on LinkedIn if you search for Amy M Gardner. There are many other Amy Gardners out there. And you can also always email me: amy@Apochromatik.com.
Andi Simon: So for all of you who come to our web, to our website who come to our podcasts and are a part of our great audience, we are in the top 5% of global podcasts, whatever that might mean. I'm always honored. I love your emails. Send them to info@andisimon.com. Tell me what you want to hear more about. Amy was perfect for today because I can only tell you that a bunch of folks out there, clients of ours and others, are trying to figure out how to figure this out. And humans are clever creative creatures, but they also get stuck in the stories of yesterday and right now we need to craft new ones for tomorrow. It's a new chapter of your sitcom and it's fun.
My books are there on Amazon. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business has done really well. And On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is still clicking away there. It has won an award and it's bringing us great clients who did change and that's what we're all about. So On the Brink with Andi Simon is here to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Amy, I'll let you say goodbye and then I'll say goodbye.
Amy Gardner: I just hope people will know that they can feel free to reach out always. I am glad to hop on the phone or hop on Zoom and chat through whatever issue you may be encountering. Always glad to hear from folks.
Andi SImon: And don't forget, there's no reason you have to do this alone. There is nothing better than picking each other's brains and having some time to laugh over a cup of coffee. It's a good time to do it. Although someone asked me if having wine every night with a friend is a good hobby. I said I'm not sure what your hobbies are. Bye everybody.
Hear how anthropology can send your business zooming to the top I love to read the Financial Times. It provides a very different perspective of the world from our US papers. As I was browsing recently, I came upon a story about Gillian Tett, FT's US Managing Editor, and her new book, Anthro-Vision. Curious as I am, my question was, What is a journalist doing writing a book about anthropology, and promoting AI (Anthropology Intelligence)? My joyful discovery was that Gillian is an anthropologist who became a journalist, a bit by chance and then by design. Her book is about the power of observation. Whether in Tajikistan as an aspiring anthropologist studying marriage rituals or reporting on a major conference before the financial crisis of 2008, she mastered the art of listening to the stories being told, the resistance to change that people demonstrate, and the wisdom an anthropologist can offer—if only others are willing to listen. As a fellow anthropologist, I am fascinated and I know you will be too. Enjoy. Watch and listen to our conversation here
As anthropologists, our job is to see what is unseen
Anthropologists love to observe, and by capturing the real lives of people, we offer insights that other data capture methods might complement or even might ignore. We know that people don’t really know what they are doing and often tell you what they think you want to hear. It's their stories that offer opportunities to better ascertain the meaning of their daily lives and see the patterns that their cultures command.
In Gillian’s book Anthro-Vision, there are wonderful stories about how cell phones have become the way in which kids growing up in the pandemic have built social lives, and why this is probably not going away. There is a great story about Bad Babysitters and how an anthropologist could open up their eyes to why they were messaging incorrectly to potential customers.
She and I spoke at length about the social silence that gives us a view into what people are thinking. You will enjoy listening to her and love her book as I did. Our interview was at times deep and at others filled with humor, as we shared our journeys and who we are, not what we do. You can contact with Gillian onn LinkedIn.
Gillian's 5 big ways Anthropology Intelligence (AI) could help you:
- Recognize that we are all creatures of our environments.
- Accept that there is no natural cultural frame. As humans, we create this diversity.
- Find ways to immerse ourselves in the minds and lives of others to gain empathy.
- Look at ourselves through the lens of an outsider to see ourselves more clearly.
- Listen to what is not said, that social silence.
To learn more about how we at SAMC apply corporate anthropology to businesses to help them get off the brink and soar, read the first chapter of my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights.
For a deeper dive into anthropology and how it can help your business thrive:
- Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy
- Blog: What is Corporate Anthropology and Why Should I Try It?
- Podcast: Rita Denny—Maybe You Need Anthropology To See Yourself In New Ways
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide and my job is to get you off the brink. So I try to find people who are going to give you a fresh perspective, see things through a clear lens.
Let's just step back and take a moment to be a little anthropological and begin to understand that you really don't know what's happening until you pause and think about it differently. And as you know, in my books, I help you see things through the eyes of my clients who all got stuck or stalled because their stories were so great that they couldn't see all the things that were going on around them. And that's why a little anthropology can help you change, grow and your companies get unstuck. As you know, I myself am a corporate anthropologist, which is why I'm so excited to bring to you today's guest.
Today, Gillian Tett is with me. Let me tell you about why she's so special, and why you're going to enjoy watching her or listening to her. Listen carefully to the stories she has to tell. Gillian serves as the Chair of the Editorial Board and Editor at Large in the US of the Financial Times. Forgive me for reading this, but it's very important that you hear it.
She writes weekly columns covering a range of economic, financial, political and social issues. She's also the co-founder of Financial Times Moral Money, a twice weekly newsletter that tracks the ESG revolution in business and finance, which has since grown to be a staple FT product. In 2020, Moral Money was the SABEW best newsletter. I'll tell you, it's a great newsletter. Previously, Gillian was a Financial Times US managing editor. And she's also served as assistant editor for the Financial Times markets coverage, and a lot of other things of great importance. I love to read theFinancial Times and I bet you do as well.
She's the author of The Silo Effect, which looks at the global economy and financial system through the lens of cultural anthropology. She's also authored Fool's Gold: How Unrestrained Greed Corrupted a Dream, Shattered Global Markets and Unleashed Catastrophe, a 2009 New York Times bestseller and Financial Book of the Year at the inaugural Spirits Book Awards.
I must tell you she has written really good books. I brought her here today because she has a new book out called Anthro-Vision. And as you might imagine, it touched me and my heart. And I read right through it. I couldn't stop because it was all about how, what she's calling AI, not artificial intelligence, but anthropological intelligence, more intelligence and a whole new perspective. And what I would like you to understand is how a little anthropology can, in fact, help you and your business see things through a fresh lens and why it's so important. Gillian, thank you for joining me today.
Gillian Tett: Well, thank you for interviewing me. And it sounds like we not only have a lot in common, but a lot to learn from each other. I'm interested in your own career and your own story because it sounds fascinating.
Andi Simon: Well, I have enjoyed reading about yours. But I'd like you to tell the listeners or the audience about who Gillian is because you've had a great journey that's taken you to many places. And as an anthropologist, I smiled. Just a little aside, I took my daughters when they were four and five to Greece to study Greek women. And I know you'd appreciate this, I learned a whole lot about the Greek woman through my children. I'm not sure what my children learned, but they still love me. And so that's all that matters. Tell us about yourself.
Gillian Tett: Anyone who reads my biography would think that I'm thoroughly weird. That has been the reaction of many business leaders, political leaders, economists, grown-ups who pretend to run the world, when they hear about my background because most people who work in high finance or business assume that if you're going to be a journalist writing about them, you should have a PhD in economics or an MBA, or some kind of training in quantitative intellectual pursuits. And my background is actually in cultural anthropology. And I did a BA and then a PhD at Cambridge University in the UK.
And what anthropology really is about is looking at human cultures and systems, and what makes people and societies tick, not just in terms of the obvious things that we recognize, but most importantly, the things that we tend to ignore around us all the time. Just like psychologists look at our hidden biases in our brains, anthropologists look at our hidden biases and patterns and assumptions in society.
So in my case, I went into anthropology because I was fascinated by the rest of the world. I've always loved to explore and travel. And as a child, I dreamed of going to wacky weird places or places that seem weird to me. But like Indiana Jones, if you like the intellectual world, and cultural anthropology pretty much came out of that impetus in Victorian England, the idea that people would go off to other cultures to find the essence of what it meant to be human. And a lot of what anthropologists did in that way mid-century was indeed to go and travel. That's changed a lot in the 21st century. I'll come on to that in a moment.
But I went off in my case to a place called Soviet Tajikistan in 1989. And I spent about a year and a half of my life up in the high mountains in Tajikistan living with a group of wonderful villages. I imagine most people listening are saying, I've got no idea where Tajikistan is on the map, or what it's like there. But basically, if you imagine the scenes you might have seen of Afghanistan on the news, and take out the black veils and put on very brightly colored clothes, then you roughly have the idea of what my village was like. It was in the high, high mountains of the Hindu Kush. And I was studying Tajik wedding rituals there. But I wasn't just studying wedding rituals, I was looking at these rituals and symbols and ceremonies, and all the economic exchanges associated with weddings as a key to try and understand how the Soviet Tajiks reconciled their identities of being Islamic and communist at the same time.
Now, after I did my PhD, I then left Tajikistan. I actually became a journalist, originally a war reporter. And then I joined the FT and became an economics correspondent. And for the first few years, it felt as if all my training in cultural studies was completely irrelevant. But it's funny how life works. Because a few years after I started writing about finance, I suddenly realized that actually human beings are humans wherever they are. And in just the same way that I went studying Tajikistan wedding rituals in the Hindu Kush, and looked at how they use symbols and ceremonies to express ideas about their world.
To give you an example, two investment bankers get together for gigantic ritualistic ceremonies called investment banking conferences, where they have all kinds of rituals like PowerPoints, and bar meetings, and golf tours. And those rituals and ceremonies and symbols also create social networks, and express all kinds of assumptions which could and should be studied through an anthropologist lens. So the latter part of my career has been all about trying to use this anthropological vision, and apply it to the world of business and finance and economics. And frankly, I think it's something that anybody could benefit from, particularly now, given that COVID has ripped up our normal lives and has thrown us all into culture shock. And we can all benefit by thinking about what makes us really tick.
Andi Simon: When you think about that, you in your book play out some of the stories in there. You've provided us with a broad range of fascinating illustrations of the application of anthropology to different situations. Whether it was to a childcare center that wasn't doing well, or getting into pet care, or to the economic crisis of 2008 or what happened with Cambridge analytics, give us some illustrations, some case studies that are some of your favorites. The reason I ask is that, as you were describing, I could imagine being in the highlands of Russia.
I took my kids to see what it was like to be a woman in Greece, and I studied the Greek immigrants and they returned to migration. But if you haven't done that, there's no way you know what it's like. And when you do it in modern society, in our businesses, people say, Well, what do you really do? I say, Well, I hang out a lot. And I listen a lot. And I'm looking for all the gaps that are on the sides of what people assume to be true. The only truth is, there's no truth, I tell people, and then they get really frustrated because it's all an illusion that we're living. So some illustrations, some great stories that you enjoy sharing about the ones that really make a difference.
Gillian Tett: Well, one of the problems with anthropology and trying to communicate it in a corporate setting is that the corporate world likes to see things in shades of black and white, and things on PowerPoints. And anthropologists say, well life is grey and subtle and often contradictory. And in reality it is, that's really the only way to understand situations. But it's not always easy to boil down into a single chart. But for me, one of the most important moments in my own career was when I realized that actually the same tools I looked at Tajikistan weddings with in terms of analyzing and symbols could and should be applied to investment banking conferences.
I went down to the Mediterranean in 2005 to an event called the European Securitization Board and looked at those rituals as if I was seeing them like an anthropologist. It showed me that the bankers that were engaged in that securitization business back in 2005 had all kinds of assumptions that they were barely aware of themselves which were distorting their vision of finance quite significantly and laying the seeds for the subsequent 2008 financial crisis. So when I looked at the bankers at play in their conference, I can see that they were a tribe set apart with a strong sense of their own identity. And like any social group that has a tight network, that was birthed and being reflected and reproduced in the banking conference.
And they had a creation mythology. You know, every group has a creation mythology. Their creation mythology was that perfectly liquid markets, so called liquefaction of financial markets, was the ultimate perfect gold, the Holy Grail. And they were so addicted to this idea of a perfect free market. So they kind of failed to see all the contradictions in their creation mythology, like the fact that, although they were creating these innovations supposedly to make markets more innovative and more safe and more prone to perfect trading, most of these new products were so complex, they weren't being traded at all. And they weren't even able to value them with free market prices. Because it wasn't at the market prices, they had these models, the tools they were using to disburse risk were actually introducing new risks in the system because they were too complex for people to know where the risks were. And they said that these tools were done entirely to help people. But there were no faces in their PowerPoints. It was all Greek letters that indicated it wasn't just an accident that there were no faces. And their PowerPoints reflected a mentality that the end user had been kind of screened out of the way they saw finance.
And you can say, well, that's kind of a pity. But actually, it had a really practical implication because what it meant was that the people creating new financial products were so caught up with the creation process, they couldn't actually see how the products were being used on the ground at the end of the financial chain. There's a wonderful scene in the movie, The Big Short, where a hedge fund trader goes and meets a pole dancer in Florida. Great scene. The financier, the hedge fund guy, goes, Holy crap, these people are doing this with subprime mortgages. And it was a real shock. And the thing that was shocking was not the fact that subprime mortgages were being used and abused on the ground, it was the fact that so few financiers could see what the end result was because they were so detached.
So I came back from my conference, having spotted all this in terms of how the bankers were conducting their rituals, and it's one thing that led me to later warn that there was going to be a financial crisis. And I kept issuing those warnings over and over again. So that's one example where you can use anthropology tools to look at how a social group is blinkered and has blind spots that don't see, which can be dangerous.
But in my book, I talk about ways that consumer industry groups can use anthropology to try and understand consumers, to try and understand what really drives fashions and trends to try. And also I've talked about how businesses can use anthropologists to see what's going wrong in their companies. General Motors did that very effectively several times. And you can also use anthropology to understand how other offices really work, or how they don't work. So almost any sphere of life where people are operating can benefit from some anthropology.
Andi Simon: Often, I'll take a client with me out to their clients, to go spend a day in the life of their clients. So I'm going to teach you a little anthropology, I say. Let's go watch and see what's going on. You sell them solutions that you think are perfect. Let's watch how they're actually using them. Because to your point, if I went out and looked and came back, they would delete me. You didn't hear it, right? You didn't see it, right? So we go with them. And the two of us watch in the same factory exactly how it's being used. A sensor that's actually measuring the color of something or some technology that's being applied. Then we go out and we write down everything we saw. And the two of us were in two different places at the same time. We were each seeing completely different things.
The conversation that follows is fascinating to me, because they're still trying to figure out what it was I was looking at and listening to. To your point, this is about listening and seeing and what they were listening to and why they were trying to fit it into their box. Like, you're a wonderful economist, we're trying to fit it into their illusion of reality, and what the reality actually was and I might claim as mine in a better reality, but I'm looking for the gaps for you and you're looking to fit it into your box, which may no longer be the right box anymore. And that's so important now, coming out of the pandemic The way we used to do things isn't any longer the way we're doing it. So people are hiring us to figure out, what do we do now? What's happening out there? Come watch with us. So as you were putting together your book, I have a hunch each of the stories touched you in some of the same ways.
Gillian Tett: I mean, the power of anthropology, in many ways I would argue, is essentially what you're doing is trying to engage in a three part journey. And the way I put it, that basically you are trying to simultaneously immerse yourself into the minds and lives of others so that you can understand them better. You're trying to not just immerse yourself in the mind of others, but really trying and seeing the world through their eyes in a kind of humble, open-minded way and to collide with the unexpected. You're trying to then use that knowledge to look back at yourself. Because, there's this wonderful Chinese proverb that a fish can't see water. None of us can see the assumptions that shaped us unless we periodically jump out of our fishbowl, go with other fish and talk to other fish and then look back at ourselves again with clarity of vision. And then you use that inside-outside perspective. The experience of being a stranger in your own land to not just look at the parts of the world that you talk about, the visible parts, but also the parts of the world that you don't talk about, or the assumptions that you ignore because they seem boring or geeky or dull or taboo or obvious. And that sort of three-part journey can be really powerful.
An example: General Motors brought in an anthropologist to look at why some of its meetings were going so badly wrong, why some merging initiatives were going so badly wrong. There was an attempt in the latter part of the 20th century to create a sort of joint car between German and American engineers.They tried and tried for about two years to create a joint small car by bringing this team of engineers together. And at the time, they assumed the problem was because of linguistic differences. I know the tendency to think oh, those Germans don't understand the Americans and Americans didn't ask the Germans, because that was the obvious difference and distinction that was in everyone's faces. But some anthropologists observed the group and realized that actually it wasn't a straight story of German versus American clash. There was a bigger clash between different teams of Americans between Tennessee and Detroit. And because they all had very different cultures in their factories.
And the really interesting thing was they kept calling meetings to try and resolve the problems without realizing that all three different groups had different ideas about what a meeting was and what the whole point of it was. The Germans thought it was basically to rubber stamp a decision that had already been taken and that it was very hierarchical Their meeting didn't really count as work because work was what you did elsewhere. The Tennessee group thought that a meeting was there to kind of brainstorm and you had to have some kind of collaborative consensus-based system and they thought meetings were work. And the Detroit group had another idea all over again.
So all of the people were coming into that meeting with different expectations, and because they weren't actually talking to each other in advance, and they weren't looking at the story behind the story, which is basically what were their different cultures, and what were their expectations of meetings, they kept wrongly describing it as a German-American thing, and it wasn't. So those patterns played out over and over again in offices.
And it's really important to think about that now for two reasons. Firstly, most businesses right now are in the grips of radical tech transformation, as automation and digitization takes off. And that's creating a whole different bunch of cultural clashes, because the way that a group of techies in San Francisco are trained to think about meetings is not the same as say, a group of metal bashers in Detroit. But secondly, COVID and the pandemic and lockdown has challenged all of our ideas about how offices and work and meetings should happen. And we haven't been together in groups to kind of learn from each other and thrash it out. We've all been scattered and isolated.
So within every company, the longer that COVID and lockdown has gone on for, the more you've created micro subcultures, who may be totally talking past each other all the time. And often exasperated senior managers who are middle aged, go, Oh, these millennials, they're so weird. But what about the age gap between different generations? Or maybe just the fact that different subcultures are growing up inside companies as we're scattered. And as we return hopefully to the office, different cultural patterns will develop all over again, and we need to think about it.
Andi Simon: Well, you're not Malinowski, and you're not going off like Margaret Mead to a small island. To some degree, that's just what's happened during this pandemic, islands have been created. And as we're watching them...for example, I have a wonderful client that I'm going on my fifth year with them all in transformation. And they used to give remote work as a benefit to their partners and their employees, until the pandemic hit and everyone went remote. All 70 employees. Now they can't get them back into the office. And they said, Well, what was valued before as a benefit, it's now a penalty. And how do you take the same thing: remote work one minute is wonderful and in one minute it's awful. What are the values that are coming, and the partners are lonely.
And the reason they want them back together is for human companionship. And what's so interesting for me is to watch the dynamics going on. Because they don't find a way to articulate what really matters here. It isn't about having them come back in the office, and that's not bad, and people decide with feelings. Their logic is, Well, I don't have to commute for an hour plus, I can get so much work done. Why do I have to be there to have lunch together, we're not going to do that. I mean, it's so interesting to watch the head and the hearts here at odds with each other on this island that I'm not quite sure was perfect before. And I'm not quite sure it's so bad right now, but nobody's quite sure what we should do to build coming out of it. And I have a hunch this is the proliferation of islands that all of us are watching happen across the country and across different industries. It's really interesting as an anthropologist to step back and just observe and laugh a little and cry a little bit too.
Gillian Tett: I guess the point that you know very well that you've seen in your own kind of work, which is so important, is that we need to talk not just about what people are obviously talking about all the time, that's in your face, but also we need to always ask ourselves in any context, whether we're in an office or any other setting, What are we not talking about? What are we missing? What is the story behind the story? What's the context? And one of the ways I try to illustrate that point is through an issue that isn't to do with work.
Practically, everyone who's middle aged with teenage kids is grappling with why are teenagers so addicted to their cell phones? And if you ask people that question, they go, it's because of cell phone technology. Or is it because of those wretched teenagers or it's because you know, evil tech companies are busy designing algorithms, which are addictive? Certainly that's true to some degree. But the reality is that you can't understand teenage cell phone usage without stepping back and looking at what people don't talk about, which is how teenagers move in the real physical world. And if you go back 100 years, teenagers had a lot of opportunities to physically roam, to meet their friends on the streets, even 50 years ago, they went to the shopping mall. They cycled to school. They would hang out with their friends on the fields, without parents watching every move.
But in the 21st century, and even before lockdown, you had a whole generation of middle class American teenagers, particularly in suburbs, who essentially are overscheduled. They are driven everywhere by their parents constantly being monitored. And then you go into the pandemic, and suddenly this sense of physical constraint is even more extreme. So is it any surprise that you have a generation of people who think that the only place as a teenager that you can test boundaries, congregate spontaneously, explore the world without parents watching is online, in cyberspace? You can't talk about cyberspace experience without looking at the physical world. That's the social silence, to use a word that anthropologists sometimes use. And that model or metaphor applies over and over again to almost any aspect of modern life.
Andi Simon: You said something very profound and well worth emphasizing. The times make the man or the man makes the times. Here we have a transformation of trust and of safety. When I was a kid growing up, we would go outside and play stickball on the street, and get on my bike and ride to the mall to go shopping with nobody. As my kids grew up, we began to realize how much more structured their lives were without thinking about the implications of it. I don't think we spend our time saying that's good or that's not good. We sort of flow with what society is doing and then you have all of the after effects of transformation.
I've had several university clients who are frustrated because they couldn't get their Gen Ys, now the Gen Zs, to come in and play athletics. They spent their days on video games. And they were much happier playing a video game and not coming in to go play baseball or basketball or watch them. And socializing with more challenges. I actually had a grownup client, a professional, who spent his weekends playing games. His whole friendship network was there. And as an observer, I said, Oh, this is really a pure point, a transformation of our society without much intentionality here, if you know the world he was in, he never met any of the folks that he played with, which by itself was sort of an interesting and new and bizarre society in which we're in.
You know, as you're thinking about what's coming next, I don't know when the pandemic is really going to end or if we're going to live in a COVID world for a while. Are you? As this is a futurist podcast, I would like to ask what are the signs you're seeing? What do you hear coming through? I have a hunch, you're picking up little signals already that you're curious about? Because I know I am. What do you see?
Gillian Tett: Well, I think that people have been forced to re-examine how they're living. And what is fascinating was the late 20th century was a time when people had quite rigid boundaries between home and work in many professional contexts. Not always, but most western professionals thought that the office was a place you worked in, you might bring work back to home. But that was separate, you had a work time and a home time. You had your office colleagues, your friends, your family, they all sat in different buckets and we took that for granted.
The reality is that actually that pattern of the 20th century is an absolute aberration throughout most of human history, and even throughout many parts of the world today. And what COVID has done has tossed most of us back into a state of being something like a peasant farmer, where your house is your locus of work, and your family is mixed up with your colleagues and everything else. And we may not like it, but it certainly challenged our boundaries. I don't think it'd be that easy for people to recreate those boundaries in such a rigid way going forward.
A second change that's happened, which is not so bad, is because we've been locked down in our own groups, I think maybe we've become myopic. We've basically been locked down with people just like us, our pod, our friends. And people thought initially that when we went online, we would somehow break down our tribalism. Quite the reverse has happened because the key thing to understand about the internet is that it allows us to customize our identities and experiences in a way that's never been possible before. And I think it's changed our vision of how we as individuals relate to society.
You know, most societies in human history have seen the individual as a derivative of society. We're a cog that fits into a machine with identities that are pre-assigned. You know the enlightenment in Europe and this idea that we are the center of our society. The "me generation." "I think, therefore I am." Society's derivative of me. 21st century with digital tools has given us the capability to basically customize our world as we want to know. We customize our coffee choices, our media sources, our friendship groups, and identities online. We customize our music tastes. Today's generation doesn't want to have a vinyl record, which has been pre-assembled with someone else. We want our own pick of a mix of music to listen to when we want, exactly what we want. And that's really a shift that's been exacerbated by the pandemic because we've been so reliant on cyberspace. And it's made us even more tribal, I think, in a very bad way.
Another shift that's happened is that people's sense of the future, being a predictable, rigid path that goes in one direction has been shaken by the pandemic. Late 20th century was a time where most Westerners had lived a pretty stable life, pretty predictable life...no longer. And it was also a world where people thought okay, so I have business economics in one bucket, and sort of a do-gooding environment, social issues in another. And I think, again, that's breaking down. And you can see that in the corporate world where, essentially, companies are realizing that environmental, social and governance issues aren't just about activism, they're about risk management, about making sure that you don't suffer reputational risks, or the loss of assets that lose value if the regulatory climate change changes, and you don't alienate your customers and your employees. So people are no longer seeing business in just such a rigid tunnel vision way, it's more about lateral vision. And that's very, very important.
And last but not least, I'd say that another shift has been in terms of cryptocurrencies and finance. In some ways, the move into cryptocurrencies, the move into meme stocks, is also part of this pick and mix culture. Patterns of trust are changing. As anthropologists, we used to say there was either vertical trust, or horizontal trust, where people trusted each other in peer-to-peer groups. This provides a social group glue to keep groups together. Or, you had vertical trust, which was trust in institutions and leaders on a large scale. It was presumed that when you had big groups, you couldn't have horizontal trust. Digital platforms have enabled something called distributed trust to explode. Suddenly, huge groups of people can do things on the basis of trusting each other via digital tools. That's how Airbnb operates. It's also how most cryptocurrencies operate. You trust the crowd through a digital platform, but not through an organizational hierarchy. And that's, again, changing people's attitude toward money and value and exchanges in a fascinating way.
Andi Simon: If we write about this in about five years, we will have captured a major catalytic moment transforming society. If you listen to the multipliers of what we've just described, when I work with my own CEOs, mostly mid-market size clients, they are becoming far more stuck, stalled and immobilized than they've ever experienced in the past. They don't know what to do. And what's so fascinating to me is that they really don't know what to do. And they're not willing to go out of their corner office, out of their comfort zone to begin to see. And so they're really struggling with whether or not their businesses are going to survive. And there's no reason why they can't survive, they just have to change. And all of a sudden, that entrepreneurial spirit that got them there is stalled. And the certainty you spoke about, I'm not sure that was true, or an illusion that humans prefer certainty versus being fragile. But in fact, it's really raising up those people who can see opportunity in being agile, and I'm willing to change. The brain hates me when I go into a company to say, You're going to change and immediately all that cortisol is produced, and they go, Oh, please get out of here.
But in fact, I do think there's going to be a training ground now for the agility that's needed for the next phase. Because as we come out of this, it's not going to be certain either, and nobody can really plan the way they might have thought. And I don't think that you should plan anything. I think you should try to be nimble, agile, adaptive, and talk to people. You speak about the silence, it's a great time to start listening. Just talk to people and you don't have to do it in person if you don't want to, but you can try. But I do think it's a time to listen to each other and not decide anything, just pull it in and just be anthropologists. Just listen to the conversations.
Judith Glaser has a wonderful book on conversational intelligence, that you start by saying all of society are conversations. And I truly think that's a simple way of saying, Yep, just listen to each other. But the conversations are hanging out, and begin to think about what's really going on in those conversations. It's a little like that picture of that scene when they say, Who's doing the subprime mortgages. What are we missing?
You have some great five big things in Anthro-Vision. Do you want to share them with our audience? I guess I'm pushing people to bring a little anthropology into your life. It's important and one of those five things.
Gillian Tett: Absolutely. Well, having said you can't boil anthropology down to a PowerPoint, here's my PowerPoint. Lesson one: recognize that we're all creatures of our own environment. In a cultural sense, we're all fundamentally shaped by a set of assumptions that we inherit from our surroundings that we never usually think about. And they matter.
Lesson two: recognize that just because we are shaped by sort of assumptions, that doesn't mean they're universal. It sounds very obvious, but the reality is that it's human nature to assume that the way that we live and operate and function is not just inevitable, but natural and proper, and that everyone else would kind of live like us. And guess what, there's a multitude of different ways to live and think, and if you think that yours is the only right way, you're going to suffer badly in business.
Lesson three: coming out of this is to take time to immerse yourself periodically in the minds and lives of people who seem different from you. In my case, I went to Tajikistan, which for someone having grown up in England, it was very, very different indeed. But you don't have to go to the other side of the world of Hindu Kush. Just go talk to someone down the end of your road who lives in a different world. Go talk to someone in a different department, go take a different route to work, go swap a day with someone with a different profession. And if you can't do it physically, because of the pandemic, get online and basically explore another tribe online. And then mentality: I mean, just change the people you follow on Twitter, say for a week, and you'll see a completely different perspective on life.
And then lesson five: for us, the experience of immersing yourself in the minds of others to become a stranger in your own land, and to look back at yourself with fresh eyes, and see what a stranger would consider to be weird or shocking, or impressive about how you live and your assumptions. And think about what you're not thinking about. What are the parts of your life that you're ignoring, the social silences, often thinking about the rituals that you're using in your everyday life, the symbols, the patterns that you use to organize your space, and your family groups, or your time. Those can often be very revealing, if you step back and look at them with an inside or outside his eyes. You know, why would you consider it to be odd to keep your hairbrush in the fridge? What does that mean? I mean, what are you missing? Well, what is one of your ideas about different body parts and about your mouth versus your hair, or you know all these inbuilt assumptions, which you take for granted, but are often very revealing.
There's nothing wrong with the patterns we inherit from our surroundings, unless we remain prisoners of them and cannot imagine alternatives. And right now, as we come out of the pandemic, try to reimagine the world and recover and rebuild. It really is time to have an open mind, particularly after a pandemic that's kept us locked down mentally and physically, and in danger of being captured by tribalism.
Andi Simon: What a beautiful ending, Gillian. Thank you so much. I've had such fun. It's fun to wander with you. Any last thoughts? How can they reach you? And how can they buy your book?
Gillian Tett: First, let me say what a great joy it has been to do this with you. And I greatly salute what you've done in your own career, which is fascinating. I write for the Financial Times, twice a week with columns. I also oversee a platform called Moral Money, which is the ESG sustainability platform at the FT, which is a newsletter that goes out three times a week. And my new book, Anthro-Vision, is out on sale. I should say last but not least, as another sign of culture, if you're listening to this in America, you can find my book Anthro-Vision, with a bright red jacket cover, and a picture of me on the back wearing a bright red top looking like Fox TV because that sells in America. If you pick up my book in the UK, or any part of the former Commonwealth as they say, you'll find my book is sold with a nice white understated cover with a picture of me on the back, wearing a blue shirt on a stoop clutching a cup of coffee. The British publishers thought that a picture of me looking like a Fox TV babe was too scary for the British market. And therein lies a story about why culture matters.
Andi Simon: And you hope they're right. Well, I think that for the listeners, and our audience, whether you're watching this or listening to us, it's been truly a special time to share the essence of On the Brink with Andi Simon, our podcast, but my job is to help you get off the brink helping you to see, feel, and think through a fresh lens. There is so much going on today that's going to expand in a positive way the possibilities that are before you. It's the art of possibilities now. And rather than trying to go back...people say, I can't wait till the old comes back. It's not coming back because I don't even know what the old was and you don't either. But you also know that the new is giving you opportunities that are tremendous. Think about them in a positive way and you'll see them turning lemons into lemonade or limes into margaritas as somebody said to me recently.
It's a great time. Gillian, thank you for joining me today. And for our listeners, don't forget, here's what I'd like you to do. I get emails from across the globe at info@Andisimon.com. You send me your ideas, you send me people whom you want me to interview. Send them to me, give me some ideas about topics that would be cool for you. I actually am doing a Leadership Academy and one of the gentlemen there, a physician, said, You know, my sons are listening to your podcast, and I laughed, and I said, How old? Eight and ten! I said, so that's my target audience. And I will keep talking to them, but they should listen because I think they and you will really benefit from understanding how a little anthropology can help you and your business soar. Bye bye now. Stay well. Bye bye.
Hear how sleep affects every aspect of your work and your life I had the pleasure of meeting Riley Jarvis and learning all about his sleep program. Sleep doesn’t come easily to me—or to lots of people. And staying asleep is often a challenge. Riley struggled with his own health and well-being, then discovered that sleep was the answer to his health issues. As you listen to his story, you are going to want to know more. Definitely listen in enjoy! Watch and listen to our conversation here
The way you live every day is closely connected to how you sleep every night.
These two things are not separate or disconnected. How you prepare for sleep, quiet your mind and body, and move into a restful period is of critical importance to how well you will sleep. Listen to our discussion and learn more. Perhaps you too can find a solution to your well-being in Riley’s approach to sleep. You can get in touch with Riley via LinkedIn, his blog and his website The Sleep Consultant, or email him at riley@thesleepconsultant.com.
Need some help taking better care of yourself? Here are some suggestions
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You?
- Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?
Additional resources for you
- My award-winning second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide and I go looking for people who are going to help you get off the brink. Remember, our job is to help you see and feel and think about things through a fresh lens. So I'm an anthropologist. I help people change, whether it's as an executive coach or consultant in your business. I help you see what's all around you that your mind might be fighting because it doesn't quite fit into the story that's there.
Today, I have Riley Jarvis with us from Ottawa. People come from across the world to be on our podcast. It's so much fun. In fact, you've taken our podcast to the top 5% of global podcasts. I'm proud of it. We've also published our 300th podcast. That means four years of doing lots of good stuff. I know Riley has his own podcast, and I was on his. But today we're going to talk about Riley.
So let me tell you a little bit about him and then he will tell you his own journey. We're going to talk today about something you're not going to do today, which is sleep, which is really important. Riley is the founder and CEO of TheSleepConsultant.com. It's an organization that helps CEOs, entrepreneurs, and high performance business people transform their sleep to significantly improve their day, their life. You don't realize that the two are connected but they're actually all one and you are alone both at night and in person.
He started this through his own health journey. And he discovered that sleep was the missing link that brought everything together. It's an interesting story. After hacking his own biology by learning from top doctors in the field, and furthering his own education on the subject, he developed the state of the art approach. He will tell you about his 10 tips and tricks to help you, as well as that get at the root of the issue.
Now we all know that as we have matured, at times, sleep isn’t easy. And at times at two in the morning, we're wandering around the house wondering, how do I get back to sleep? I'm sorry, but it is hard. Riley had a background in the finance industry. He's been seeing firsthand the consequences of sleep deprivation. And that means that you can listen today and know he's got something to get you off the brink. I want you to soar. So by the time we're done with our time together, you're going to say, oh, Riley, how do you help me sleep? And why should I? I have a hunch you know why. Riley, thank you for joining me today.
Riley Jarvis: Thank you so much, Andrea. It's a pleasure to be here.
Andi Simon: Tell the listeners your story. It's a great story. But I also know that until they hear it, they're not quite sure who is Riley and why should I listen to him. So credential yourself. Who are you?
Riley Jarvis: Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate the kind intro. So a little bit about me. I'm the CEO of The Sleep Consultant. And yeah, like Andrea said, I help CEOs, entrepreneurs, high performers, really optimize your sleep, get more done in the day, by optimizing the time that they do sleep into deeper wave sleep patterns. Sleep translates into every single thing that we do. How we feel, the relationships we have, our focus, productivity, and if you're really able to get your sleep down, opposed to hustling to get more done, you can actually retain better focus, better memory, make better decisions, and you can just see it all through your personal and professional lives as I've done with many clients.
But starting with my story, well we'll get back to this. It all started many many years ago when I was working in the finance industry and that's what I went to school for. I was working at private equity and kind of the investment banking world and I mean the hours as anybody knows are very arduous, waking up, getting to work at about 7am and working till 10pm until the deal was closed. It was just day in, day out, grinding sometimes 12 to 18 hours a day. And it's kind of only the top 1% survive and you have to be on your mental and physical peak in order to maintain that. But, I just couldn't do it anymore and I was in my early 20s at the time. That's usually when we think as a young healthy male, when you have the energy to do all that.
But, there was something happening with me where I was making clumsy mistakes. I didn't have the energy. I just had constant brain fog and it just went on and on. Long story short, I ended up having to be let go because I didn't know what was going on. I felt like a shell of my former self. I was pretty good in school and I was a good worker and everything was going good up until that point. So I was forced to leave. I was forced to drop the classes and my health started to deteriorate pretty quickly. When I went to the doctor specialist, they really couldn't give me an answer. The general practitioner referred me to all these different doctors.
Anyway, months later I went to the gastroenterologist and it turns out I had Crohn's disease, which is inflammation of the bowels and all throughout your body. It was pretty bad to me. It was causing me to lose weight, lose muscle and energy, have brain fog and all these things that were going on. And the inflammation that was inside my bowels was actually quite bad at the time and the side effects of the medication that they were giving me were actually making me feel worse.
To put that in perspective, for me to write down a paragraph that actually made coherent sense, it took me about 5 to 10 minutes. And I just remember looking back and thinking I don't know how I function or operate in the world at the time. I was bedridden, essentially, collecting massive piles of debt. So I basically had to take my health into my own hands with my back against the wall. And the way I did that was studying. I didn't really know what was the answer yet, but studying health, all the systems inside of my biology, like how does it work on a deep, deep level.
Then I started investing in a lot of private, natural doctors, functional medicine doctors around the world. I spent tens of thousands of dollars. And then sure enough, it was kind of month by month, year by year, I slowly started to see improvements. And everything started to get better. My brain fog lifted, my energy lifted. And then I remember getting to the topic of sleep. I'm like, let's give this a shot. So I started sleeping a little bit better. And I had a sleep tracker at the time. And sure enough, I felt amazing the next day, and I was tracking all this. I was kind of a nerd with all the data and put into my book and then on an Excel sheet. I mean, as a finance guy, I'm a numbers guy. So of course, I'm going to have to do that. And yeah, sleep was the one thing that really transformed everything. And then sure enough, so the last five years.
Andi Simon: So, did you discover that on your own or was there a physician that helped you with it, or shaman? You got a lot of self reflection on your part.
Riley Jarvis: I think it was just a lot of self reflection on my part because I grouped it. I was looking at my hormones, my brain neurotransmitters, my gut and all these different things. And eventually I knew it was like, okay, on this month, I'm going to focus on sleep. And then you track what those improvements would be. And those were higher than any other thing that I was doing before. And it turned out because my body wasn't sleeping, restoring itself. And because the inflammation that was inside of me, better sleep really helped repair and recover that.
So as a result, fast forward to today, for the last five years, the Crohn's has been in 100%, complete remission. Doctors don't know why, when I go to see them, they don't know how to make sense of it. So it's kind of a joke that I have with myself. But now I mean, that's my story. And that's where I had a disease state. And I hope to inspire other people through my story. People won't be on the extreme, but I want to show them that even if they feel tired, even if they're looking to improve their performance, they can absolutely do it with their sleep.
Sleep is one part that is so neglected. As a society, we're always talking about how it's a hustle culture. Why would we sleep when we can sleep less and get more done. Drink coffee, get on with it, if we feel wired at nighttime, drink alcohol or sleeping pills. It's just a lot of these things to mask a deeper problem that's going on. But in an ideal world, we wouldn't need any of this if our body was operating as it should. I mean, if you kind of go to the root of what was actually coming from it for every person, it's a little bit different. So that's where I help people now through my story.
And I take people's results pretty personally because it's just so interesting to see different people from walks of life. Sleep is that one thing that everybody needs, that nobody can escape from. It's one of the things that you have to do. Like you have to pay taxes, you have to sleep. And eventually, one day, you'll be in the grave, right? Those are the three things you can guarantee within your life. So why not optimize sleep, something you can do anyway.
And what's amazing with sleep, it's not a drastic change to your existing lifestyle. I mean, if you look at your diet, like changing your diet drastically to lose all these pounds, if that's your goal, that's a lot of work. Going to the gym is a lot of work. But sleep is something you're doing already anyway. And I've had people who have lost like 60 pounds just from fixing their sleep alone, without changing any other routines, just because metabolism goes up. And that's just one example of many, but it's just amazing the power of sleep.
Andi Simon: Pause for a second Riley because I'm reflecting as you're talking. I want the listeners or the audience to think about things that they have seen or heard so they can make this extremely relevant beyond themselves. We're involved in Washington University in St. Louis. We donated a room in the new athletic facility and the athletic director, Anthony, changed it from a study room to a resting room. He gave it a good name, better than I call it. What he found was that many of the athletes were proud of how little sleep they had. And so what he did was he changed the whole story, the whole narrative. So that rest was good. And sleep was good. And he didn't want to hear about how little they had because it impacted their performance.
He also put in yoga, meditation, mindfulness, mind body balance, and their performances all rose as they began to sleep. So just to add a little to your story about us in very awful ways, because they were proud of it and celebrated how little they could get by with. This was stoic and wonderful. This was killing them. So your program as it evolved, did it just come aboard? How much science is there here? And how much Riley is there here?
Riley Jarvis: That's a really good question. So yes, it did evolve over time. It's kind of a work in progress over the last five years, because it started out helping people with sleep. It was just sort of local friends and then it was their parents, and then friends of friends. I kind of got a local name for myself, but then it expanded nationally. And now it's worldwide helping people virtually, in group settings, or in 1-on-1-based settings. It is a science. It's really nice that I don't do all the work myself and I can lean on science a little bit. So that's one piece of it. But a lot of it is with myself too. And on an applicable level because yes, science will tell you what you should do, but it's not always applicable to people's lives.
And this is where you have to make it very easy for people to have bite sized pieces, and make it fit into their model of the way they live their day-to-day life. Maybe they're so busy in the daytime with work, and afterwards, they just don't have any hours in the day. And so it's like, okay, we'll just make the most amount of time that you have, like for any 5, 10 minute pockets during your day, but other people will have more time. And sometimes those people get fast results. And that's okay, too. It just all depends where people are at. So you have to meet them where they're at, and then guide them along the way.
Andi Simon: When you're working with them, is each person unique or are there similarities and patterns that you begin to uncover? Or is it in their story? Is it about the habits before you go to sleep that we read about: take that hot bath, don't get in front of the screen, you don't want to see all kinds of how you use it. I love to meditate before sleep. I find it really puts me into a deep sleep. And my Sleep Number bed tells me my heart rate variability goes way up and I'm healthy. I meditate before I sleep. What kinds of passive practices do you use? What kind of processes and what kind of recommendations? How do you find it? Is it unique? Are there patterns?
Riley Jarvis: Yeah, that's a really good question. So it's both actually. So there's a lot of overlap in between. So there are patterns and processes I do with everybody. But it all starts with the initial call with them telling me what they're going through and what their background is. And based on what they tell me, I'm sort of looking at everything under the hood of their biology. Seeing things like what's going on at a hormone level, what's happening inside of their brain, what's happening here, and then based on that I'm going to custom tailor their protocol.
Accordingly, I would say usually, about 50% of the program, regardless when it comes to sleep, is common across the board. And then you know, the next 50%, we're going to custom tailor based on what somebody needs. How long have they been suffering for? Somebody who's in their 20s and they're looking to really improve their productivity, maybe they want to build a business so they can travel the world versus somebody who's in their 60’s or 70’s, their goal is longevity. And they want to live as long as they can with the goal being that that they can achieve for years to come. And that goal is a little bit different. So that's where we'll adjust things accordingly.
Andi Simon: As you and I had talked about even my own situation, you were really interesting to me in terms of the way the brain needs sleep and what it does during sleep and the ritual of what time you go to bed and when you wake up. You're going to talk to us a little bit more about what's going on in your brain during that sleep. Sleep time.
Riley Jarvis: Yeah, that's another very good question. So our brain is a very complex machine, especially when it comes to sleep. And the science really points to knowing what's going on with our diet, what's happening inside of our body and with the movement exercise. We really have that down. But, sleep,to be honest, really in the infancy stages. And it's so interesting every day there's new science coming out about it. It's a really cool domain to be within.
But in layman's terms, if I could simplify for people, our brains run in 90-minute sleep cycles. And our brain will start from a light sleep. You can think of it as we go into something known as alpha, then we go into delta theta brainwave, so we go deeper and deeper. And that's kind of like where you feel that meditative state. And then we go to light sleep where somebody could wake us up, but we're still sleeping. Then we go into deep sleep and then REM sleep. And this is where we're getting the most amount of rejuvenation for our body and for our mind.
Now usually the first half of our sleep is repairing. It's majority deep sleep, so that's repairing our body. The second half of sleep is repairing our mind because it's more REM sleep dominant. And during REM sleep we're doing a lot of things, our brain is consolidating memories from the day before, trying to make sense of our world and reality. That's why we dream so much. Even though it makes no sense. It's just trying to make sense of how we navigate to the next day in the best way possible. It's got a lot of evolutionary adaptations as well, and stuff like that.
And what happens is, when a lot of people wake up in the middle of night, they don't get that full REM sleep. Sure their bodies repaired, but if somebody goes to bed at 10pm, they wake up at 2 or 3am and they can't get to sleep, they're not going to get that quality REM sleep that they need for the next day for their mind to fully operate. And then they're tired the next day, and they need to go for coffee to compensate for that. Well, now it's hard to get to sleep because you're stimulated and it's just the ongoing cycle for a lot of people too.
The other thing to keep in mind is because our sleep cycles are 90 minutes, we usually want to wake up every 90 minutes. So we don't wake up in the middle of a deep sleep, let's say for example, 90 minutes, three hours, four and a half, six hours, seven and a half hours. A lot of people think eight hours is a sweet spot. It's very good if we can get over five hours. But the sleep usually seven and a half is better than eight for most people. But it depends. I mean, this is where self experimentation comes in. But from a simplistic point of view, that's what I'd say.
Andi Simon: What's interesting about what you're saying is what do we do to control it. It's hard enough to control a new diet, or a new exercise plan, but a new sleep pattern, where every 90 minutes, and then I want to go seven and a half hours. Is it in my control or out of my control? What's the methodology for giving us more control over it to help us?
Riley Jarvis: There's many things you can do. So what that really comes down to is all about the evening routine. A lot of the time when we wake up in the middle of the night, it's because of a few things. One is our cortisol spikes. So our stress hormones will start to come up. The root cause of this could be a nightmare that we're having, it could be something inside of us. There's a lot of inflammation, or brain neurotransmitters are just firing, we're thinking too much, could be a myriad of things. And that's where working with somebody getting to the root cause of what that might be. But just general low hanging fruit, I think it would be a good time to run through some of the top 10 things that people can start to implement to have better sleep throughout the night. So they can minimize those interruptions and get to sleep faster and we get more rejuvenated. Sound good?
Andi Simon: Tell us about the top 10 things. I'm looking forward to hearing you.
Riley Jarvis: Alright, let's go. So number one, we want to find out what our sleep animal sign is. And what that means is, we are genetically wired to either be a morning person or a night person or maybe a combination of them all. And ideally, the best way to figure this out is by doing a genetic test. This is one thing that I do with my clients. But if you go to www.thepowerofwhenquiz.com, it's actually a questionnaire that you can answer and kind of get an idea if you are a morning or nighttime person. We want to match what our Crona biology genetics are with our external environments. A lot of people stay up late, but they're actually genetically wired to be a morning person. And it's no wonder why they feel so sleepy in the morning sometimes. So it's getting that match between two.
And when you do that with people, it's just amazing how much better they feel. Moving on to number two. We want to have no caffeine after 2pm and 11am if you're sensitive. I won't go into the details too much on that. But that's a big one because you know, caffeine can stay inside of us for up to 14 hours.
Andi Simon: Now let me emphasize that means no Coke, no chocolate, not just coffee and tea. Years and years ago, I was running a bank and I had a secretary who filled my cup up all day long. And so I couldn't go to sleep at night. I couldn't wake up in the morning and then I went cold turkey for a week of headaches, and I haven't had it since. You don't realize how many ways some people like caffeine as a stimulant and others don't. So that's a good number two, now number three.
Riley Jarvis: Number three. We want to reduce blue light exposure two hours before bedtime. A recent study came out of infants who were exposed to a one-hour blue light prior to bed. It reduced their melatonin by 99%. Now I could tell you adults are probably very similar to that. So melatonin is our sleep hormone that we know you need to stay asleep and everything with that so just be careful. You can also wear blue light blocking glasses. Check it out on Amazon. Swanwick glasses are also another great option to use as well.
Andi Simon: What is blue light?
Riley Jarvis: Blue light is a light frequency. So light comes in many different light frequencies. We have red light, we have blue light, as based on a different spectrum and different light wavelengths are more stimulatory than others. Blue light happens to be on the far end of the extreme that is very stimulatory for our body and our brain. So it's good in the morning, like when we go outside and we get the sun coming through from that blue light there. We feel energized and ready to go. But at nighttime, we don't want that too much. We want more red light form. That's why when you see these blue blocking glasses, they're tinted red, because it stops that blue light from coming into your eyes as much as possible.
Andi Simon: And is that from your computer screen?
Riley Jarvis: So it's from your computer screen. It could be from your phone, it could be from the lights around your house. It could also be while you're asleep as well from any cable boxes, clocks, fans. Even when our eyes are closed, we actually have light receptors around our eyes that can detect any forms of light. So in an ideal world, this is a little unrealistic for some people, but we would be so dark we couldn't see your hand in front of us. And that's what we want to aim for. But do the best that you can.
All right, let's go on to number four. This one's pretty self explanatory, we want to sleep in a cool bedroom environment. That's about 67 to about 70 degrees Fahrenheit and about 18 to 20 degrees Celsius or below if we can. And the reason is our bodies sleep best at a cool temperature. In a 24 hour period, it's coolest around 3am, so we want our environment that's conducive to that.
Andi Simon: I must confess though, when it's minus one out, as it has been here, I opened my window a little bit to let that cool air and it feels wonderful for a while. I'm not quite sure how cool I want it. But I agree with you because I sleep much better when it's cool. I prefer the air to come in. So I hate hotels, you can't let any air in.
Riley Jarvis: I know that's just it. But the other thing is when it's cool like that, especially in the wintertime, where you and I are, it's hard to get out of bed in the morning, because it's warm on your sheets, but outside it's very difficult to go, especially if we have to get up to go to work.
Number five. We want to just completely blackout our bedroom as much as possible. So this just goes into what I was saying before TVs, cable boxes, fans, anything that's producing light inside of your bedroom. You can put duct tape over it. Use whatever you want to come up with that can just really help you throughout the nighttime to not wake up.
Number six. We do not want to eat any heavy meals about three to four hours prior to bedtime. And the reason is because we have a meal, a lot of that is our body resources will be digesting that food instead of repairing our body when we need it to. It can cause blood sugar spikes and drops and our body just wants to stay in a safe zone, it doesn't want to go too much too high or too low. And that's what's really important there. So if you can do that, that's really good.
So if you're going to bed by 10pm, having your last meal maybe five, six o'clock, that would be a good sweet spot. Any longer, people may notice that they don't sleep that well. So if you are eating later close to bed, try reducing the hours or increasing the hours prior to sleep. And you should notice a difference.
Number seven. Along the same lines, we don't want to do any intense exercise four to five hours prior to sleep. And this is because it increases our stimulatory hormone cortisol and everything else that goes along with increasing your body temperature. So you can go for a walk at nighttime, that's great. But any intense exercise, lifting weights, a lot of the people that I work with are high performing, high achievers, who are looking to gain a ton of muscle and working out in the evening at nighttime isn't really necessary for all of them and impacts their sleep directly. Saving it for the afternoon is a good place to do as well.
Number eight. This is one of the most interesting ones because a lot of people think that good sleep is all about the evening routine. But equally, it's also about the morning routine. And it's because we need to train our body to know when naturally it is a time to wake up and when naturally it is time to go to bed. And if we can get the morning routine down, what we'll find is we'll just naturally start getting tired in the evening when the body is supposed to get tired and that causes us to wake up with an abundance of energy. It's not an overnight process.
But the way we do it is when we first wake up, within the first hour I would say, we go for a walk outside and expose our eyes to the sun. Don't wear sunglasses for about 15-20 minutes. It's a great place to start. Where I am, there's not too much sun. You can buy on Amazon Lumi lights. They have 10,000 Lux, that's just the light meter that comes into your eyes and that can really help if you just do that 20-30 minutes in the morning.
Number nine. This one is probably one you're familiar with, Andrea. We want to do a guided meditation 20 minutes before bed. Great resources on this actually. I mean YouTube has so many good free resources. They're called the Honest Guys on YouTube. Sam Ovens is another one that's really good as well. But yeah, those are great resources.
Number ten. Have no alcohol about 4-6 hours prior to sleep. A lot of people drink alcohol to try and wind down prior to bed which would make sense and I did that in my early sleep journey too. I'm definitely guilty of that. But what it does is it directly negatively impacts your REM sleep and actually affects your sleep quality negatively.
Andi Simon: Yes, it's interesting because if we are out for dinner and we have a glass of wine or scotch, two and three in the morning I am all wound up and then I go to sleep, but I don't stay asleep. It's not good for the whole night. The other thing is, people don't fully understand that during sleep, your mind is processing and you said it at the beginning, I want to emphasize it, your mind's processing it, all the things that happened during the day before. My meditation tape says, you cannot do anything about yesterday, tomorrow hasn't happened yet, you're in the moment, stay in the moment. And let your mind go quiet, breathe deeply. You know, get into a moment where you're not thinking about anything, you are just being and feel whatever you're sitting on or sleeping on and begin to just get away from time and space.
I find it very interesting because your mind is looking for that client so it can do its stuff. Because it has a whole lot of work to do all night long to make sense of everything that you put into it so that you wake up in the morning fresh with a great perspective. I find that my morning is my best thinking time, my best writing time, my best time. My complex problem solving is first thing in the morning, and I'm a wake up five o'clock in the morning, six o'clock in the morning person. And so I'm raring to go. 7:30-8:00 o'clock at night, everything's quieting down and you're ready to let the mind have a little time off from the behavior. You're physically depleted as well, as you discovered with your Crohn's disease.
Riley Jarvis: Yeah, that's just it. Yeah, the sleep is so important for repair. And what you were saying is very true. That old adage of sleep on it. I mean, it's actually true if you utilize your subconscious mind. There was a really good book, Psycho Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz. And he talks about the power of the subconscious mind. It's sometimes like, do you ever get that feeling where just a brilliant idea pops into your mind when you're in the shower, you're not thinking too much? Well, that's your subconscious mind working in the background. We don't consciously always have to be thinking to do that. With our sleep, it's the same thing. If we can't figure out what a problem is, our unconscious mind, our brain will work on the problem. And we usually wake up with the answer.
Andi Simon: I want you to emphasize that because if you sleep on it, your mind isn't going away. It's actually a lot of work going on during that time to help you solve that complexity that you've got. The worst thing you could do is sit up all night trying to figure it out. That won't work at all.
Riley Jarvis: As I found out, and when I wrote my exams, trying to pull all nighters is not a good idea.
Andi Simon: This is an interesting time because I don't need to pull all nighters. But I do need to get good sleep as most of us do. And to your point, I have a friend who goes to bed at midnight and wakes up at 10 in the morning. That's a good time for her. By 10 o'clock in the morning, I've already gone through four hours of my day. And I know not to call her before 10 o'clock. I couldn't imagine wasting my morning. It's my favorite time of the day.
Riley Jarvis: Yeah, it's amazing before the world starts to wake up, I completely relate. I'm a morning person as well.
Andi Simon: My puppy and I go for early morning walks when it's warm. It's the best time. It's sort of exhilarating. So finally, this has been such fun. As you're thinking about wrapping us up, a couple of things you want our listeners or audience to remember. And I'd love you to then tell them how to get ahold of you.
Riley Jarvis: Absolutely, it's pretty simple. They can go to www.sleepconsultant.com. There you can see everything that we offer. We have a free sleep assessment questionnaire so you can see on a scale of one to 10 where you fall, and based on where you fall, I have specific training that you can utilize as well. I'll send directly to your email that you have. I just keep you in the loop of newsletters, sleep tips and all these other things. If you want to reach out to me directly, you can reach me at Riley@sleepconsultant.com.
Andi Simon: And Riley also has his podcast which I will be on. What is the name of your podcast?
Riley Jarvis: It is called Sleep for Side Hustlers. And we show people how to utilize sleep in order to improve their productivity. It could be for an entrepreneur but it really could just be for everybody because again, everybody needs better sleep. We talk about different modalities and everything to do on there too.
Andi Simon: My last question is about kids. Does your methodology work for children as well and should it?
Riley Jarvis: It does. It's just with children, you have to be a lot more careful. They're usually more sensitive to certain things. For that reason they are my specialty. That's where you have infant sleep specialists who do that. But yeah, it's a similar approach. It's just you have to be a little bit more careful with some of them as well.
Andi Simon: Because I certainly remember raising my daughters and trying to get into habits. And they abandon them, of course, when they turn into teenagers, but I think they've recovered over the years. But you know, parenting is important, but sleep is important for the parent and for the kids. And if you can get them into good habits, they can build up whatever those natural pieces, even if they just sit in bed, read until they're ready to quiet down and go to sleep. So it's important. And then the morning rituals become extremely important. So think about this intentionally. And that will give you purpose and meaning. Well, I've had Riley Jarvis from Ottawa here today. He has been talking about a really important topic: how do we get a good night's sleep. So it's been great fun. Last thought Riley and then I'll wrap this up.
Riley Jarvis: If I were to give three quick top points for people to utilize throughout their day, the first one would obviously be sleep. We don't want to think about hustling to get ahead. We want to think about improving our biology first through better sleep. And through that, we'll be able to experience life in a much more effortless way with better relationships. We can focus more and that just manifests into whatever material outcomes you want out of your life. Maybe it's more money, maybe it's a better relationship with your kids, or becoming a better leader in the workplace. So that is one we want to think about instead of pushing to get ahead, drinking more coffee to get ahead. That's one of them.
The second one is, we want to be very intentional with the hours that we have to use in the day. It's all about energy management and output. So once we figure out if we're more of a morning or a nighttime person, we really want to optimize getting the best work done first thing in the morning. So we call them the morning lark. They usually get their best work done that requires the most cognitive heavy tasks between 10am and 12pm. And then as the day goes on, we want to save just general meetings or stuff like that.
And number three, I would say is, if we can prioritize reducing just overall lifestyle inside of our day, and that could be have a better diet, better exercise, oh just different things. But whatever works best for us. As long as you can be better today than yesterday, then you're in the right place.
Andi Simon: I think you have to measure, monitor and give it some way of calibrating that this progress is going on. If not, the habits will take over and take you back to where you didn't want to be. And the new will have a hard time getting embedded into new habits. And this isn’t casual. It's really important. So thank you for today's great conversation.
Riley Jarvis: Thanks so much, Andrea.
Andi Simon: Pleasure. Let me wrap up for all our listeners. Thank you. Remember info@AndiSimon.com is where you can send us your ideas. We get tips and tricks from across the globe, new people to speak to and I always enjoy bringing them to you. My job is to get you off the brink. Remember my books. Both of them are available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local booksellers. And Rethink is going gangbusters. So thank you for all of that support.Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is all about women who smashed those myths, and they are doing extremely well. It's a year gone now and I am excited to celebrate one year's celebration. It’s just cool. I'll see you next week. It's been fun. Take care. Thank you again.
Hear how to build a culture that values men and women
There are times when you are fortunate to meet exceptional women. Kim Graham Lee is one wonderful woman who is moving in a very important direction — how to build allyship for men and women. Kim is the CEO of Integrating Women Leaders (IWL) which is joining with Women Business Collaborative, of which I am a member, to conduct the first nationally-focused study to measure the practice of allyship with women in corporate America today. The primary focus of IWL's 2022 benchmark study is to take stock of where we are in building better cultures where men and women can support each other. This is truly groundbreaking...please plan to listen.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
When women are in leadership roles, companies do better
Yet for women to move into corporate leadership roles is often a challenge. Women do not need to be “fixed.” Rather, they need business environments where they can bring their “whole selves” into the workplace, and find a culture where they are respected, heard and followed.
This podcast will tell you more about the research that's underway and how you can join in the project. If you want your company to participate, that's fantastic. You just need to provide a sample of 100 people (50 men and 50 women). To start the survey, click on the image below. You'll find that you can learn a great deal about your organization and how your culture is fostering a place where men and women work together to build better, or not. How are you creating a place for men to be allies of women? You can also take the survey as an individual.
The results will be made available June 9, 2022 at the 2022 IWL Women’s Leadership Conference. For more information, check out IWL's website: www.iwlfoundation.org.
To take the IWL survey, click below
Get in touch with Kim
You can contact Kim via LinkedIn,Twitter and her website iwlfoundation.org, or email her at kgrahamlee@iwlfoundation.org.
Is your culture working or broken? Do you even know? Here's a place to start:
- Blog: How's Your Culture? Doing Fine Or In Drastic Need Of An Overhaul?
- Blog: Need To Change Your Organization's Culture? 6 Best Ways To Do It.
- Podcast: Tristan White—A Great Place To Work Starts With A Great Culture
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Hear how to discover what really matters to you At times, my podcast, On the Brink with Andi Simon, brings me guests whom I would never have had the opportunity to meet otherwise. Sumit Gupta is one such person. As you listen to his story, you too are going to say, “Wow.” What an interesting journey he has had. How has he been able to succeed, rethink himself and his career, focus on new directions, and succeed again? What does success mean, anyhow? He answers these and many more questions. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Ask yourself, “What does matter to me?”
And then wonder if you are focused on those things and working toward actualizing them.
Sumit is very interested in sharing with you his perspective and learnings about a deeper sense of what matters to each of us. He teaches us how to find that truth through our awareness of who we are and what is important to our well-being and our identity. Here are some of the areas we discuss:
- Somatic awareness, somatic practices and somatic opening, and how they reside within a social context
- Practices that help you take action toward your future
- Embodied habits, beliefs and ways of relating that no longer serve you, yet historically were trying to take care of you
- New somatic practices that help you transform these habits
- A deeper realization of what embodiment has to do with change, connection, choice and action
At SAMC, we too help people find their purpose
As we work with clients about their self-care and developing their well-being, we're realizing that Sumit’s approach is extremely valuable for all of us trying to balance work, life, and spiritual and social meaning. You can contact Sumit on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website deployyourself.com. Visit his blogs at sumitgupta.dev and his photography portfolio at sumit4allphotography.com
Searching for meaning in your life? Here are some helpful places to start
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?
- Podcast: Elisa Spain—How To Create A Post-Career Life With Meaning
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling second book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants
Hear how to find your own true happiness Each podcast is a story for our guest to share with you, our audience, so you can “see, feel and think” in new ways. Today’s podcast is with Rebecca “Becky” Morrison. She shares with you a recurring theme which we have found with many of our own clients: success is not what it is meant to be. Happiness, that thing we all aspire to achieve, is somewhere beyond the job, the career, and even the home life you have built for yourself and your family. But where is happiness? And how do you find it? Becky has great answers, which I know will speak to you. Watch and listen to our conversation here
In our conversation, Becky and I talk about her discovering:
- Happiness is for every day, not just someday.
- Happiness is for everyone. You, yes YOU, were born to be happy.
- Happiness and challenge are NOT mutually exclusive.
- Happiness isn’t one-size-fits-all. You have your own happiness recipe which will change as your life does.
Her recipe, captured in her book, The Happiness Recipe, is all about simplifying your life.
Some of these themes echo our own work at SAMC with the Challenge of Taking Care of You. I love Becky’s ideas about decluttering your day. Eliminate the painful “should” and “have-to’s.” Refocus on what matters. But what matters to you? For our clients, it is often the elusive sense of purpose and meaning. For you, it could be personal well-being or belonging to a community that helps each other enjoy life. Maybe it is hiking, or being still, or spending more time with your children and their children.
About Rebecca Morrison
Rebecca C. Morrison is a mom, wife and lawyer turned happiness coach. A graduate of Wellesley College and Georgetown Law, she also received an executive coaching certification from UC Berkeley. Having worked in finance and Big Law for over 20 years before starting a business doing what she loves, she now helps other people become happier and more successful by applying the principles of priority-aligned living. You can connect with Rebecca on LinkedIn, her website untanglehappiness.com or her email: becky@untanglehappiness.com.
Searching for that thing called happiness? Here are some places to start
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Blog: Stuck or Stalled? The Time is Right to Rethink Your Journey
- Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Hi and welcome to On the Brink: A fresh lens to take you and your business to new heights. I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to help get you off the brink. And I must tell you, I have listeners who come from across the globe who say to me, You have no idea how that little kernel of an idea transformed my life. It's interesting because sharing all of these wonderful ideas, particularly coming out of the pandemic, coming through a changing time, and I never want to waste a crisis, it's important for us to realize that there are new ideas out there that can help us. And why not learn more about them. Who knows how they can help you?
So I have the honor today to bring to you Rebecca, Becky, Morrison, and Becky has a new book out. She'll tell you all about how to untangle happiness and find it. But I also want to tell you a little bit about her, her own bio, her background, because she didn't jump off the ship and say, Here I am, I'm going to help you with happiness. She went through a journey that reflects so much of what I'm finding with my coaching, my executive coaching of women reaching a place where they're successful. And it's not enough. Men too, they reach a place in their careers and they wonder, Isn't there anything more?
So we're going to talk today about finding purpose, finding happiness, finding what's missing. That little link that doesn't seem right. A little bit more about Becky. Rebecca Morrison is a mom, a wife, a lawyer, turned happiness coach. She is a graduate of Wellesley College and Georgetown Law. She also received an executive coaching certification from UC Berkeley. She worked in finance and big law for over 20 years. And she reflects, as so many of my clients who have been very successful, and then they said there is more to it. She spends her days helping clients uncover their own happiness recipe. The book is called The Happiness Recipe. And by applying the principles of priority-aligned living, she's thrilled to share them with you all as part of the book. Becky, thank you for coming along. It's been so much fun meeting you.
Becky Morrison: Thank you, Andi, I'm really excited to be here and talk about obviously one of my favorite topics with you and your listeners.
Andi Simon: Well, I think the first thing we're going to do is, who is Becky Morrison? What's your journey? Your story is a wonderful one but it also reflects an enormous population of folks out there who are following very much the same footsteps and wondering, really, what is this all about? And I can't tell you how many attorneys I've met at gatherings over the last several years, women in particular, who say, Well, I'm pretty successful, but not quite sure this is what I want to do for the rest of my career. How about yourself? What's your story?
Becky Morrison: So it's interesting because you describe that moment of like, I'm pretty successful, but what else, right? And I think I've gone through that experience at least three times in my career, maybe four. But the first one was, I think I've often described it as the kicking off point for this journey, happened back when I was a relatively new litigator. I was about four years into a job at a big law firm on partnership track, married, had a toddler at the time, and found myself one evening on the floor of the bathroom with my toddler in the tub and the cordless phone clipped to the back of my pants and the toilet seat cover closed and the notebook on the toilet seat cover, the papers all around me.
And I was doing two things: I was bathing my toddler, and I was working with an expert on a conference call to get them ready for their upcoming testimony. And I had two thoughts in super quick succession in that moment. The first thought was, who says you can't have it all? Like, here I am. I'm killing it. And the second thought was, I'm exhausted and this is unsustainable. And more importantly than all of that, I'm not sure this is really enough. This is not really making me happy, that I really want to be an attorney.
Which I mean, when you've gone into six figures of debt to get through law school, like me, wait a minute, you don't want to like that you're making good money, you're on the right track, there's gonna be a payoff. It'll be okay. So that was the first moment like that that I had in my career. And it led me on this path of incrementally increasing my happiness each time I made a change and then continuing to have that kind of conversation with myself about what else am I missing?
So from that point, I made a shift to law firm administration. That was a really positive shift because it gave me more time and freedom. I still got to use my legal brain and my legal education. It was kind of a hybrid attorney, attorney administrator role. And then again I reached a moment, after about a decade doing that, of like, okay, well, this is fun, but now what? What's next? Where's more? And at that point I was faced with the choice of, do I double down on this career and legal technology that I've developed and really become a well known expert in that space, which I felt I had the ability to do, or do I do something else entirely.
And what I realized is, I'm not doubling down, again, done this before on something that I'm not sure is for me, and so I took really kind of another left turn and left the legal space entirely and went into more entrepreneurial finance space to be a COO, because people in process have always been at the heart of my work. I had a lot of fun for the first two years because it was a new environment. It was fun to have an impact. It was fun not to be part of a big organization.
And then again, I sort of reached a point where they weren't growing the way that we anticipated and the CEO and I agreed that it was not right for me to stick around long term. Even though I didn't get laid off, and I didn't get fired, the practical impact was the same. I still had to find a new job, right? And so again, I did this exercise. Well, what can I do? And let me think about all the jobs I'm qualified for.
Well, I'm a lawyer who's managed 100+, 200+ attorneys and staff at various times in my career. I've got a strong process background. I've got a management background, I still have my Bar license. Let me apply for all the jobs and again, had this thought of wait a minute, wait a minute, what do I want to do? What am I really here for? What is my purpose, not just in life, generally, but more specifically, in this season of my life? What is my purpose? And I hired a coach, and that coach facilitated for me a really wide range exploration of all the possibilities. And then I ended up at UC Berkeley to get my coaching certification.
Andi Simon: That is pretty cool. It's interesting listening to you. I have a wonderful client and she is a successful partner in an accounting firm, a CPA, MBA, raised three kids alone, single mom, successful. And her shrink fired her. The person said, No, you've got to do something. You can't keep talking about how unhappy you are. And so we went through our process, and I'm anxious for you to share yours.
But usually it's in the story, you're managing your mind, your mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. I'm thinking about her experience in yours. I could stay in that zone. If you were a guy, my hunch is, you might have actually stayed in that zone because you were moving up the corporate ladder, making more money. It was all in that category of how you will be successful.
But the women I work with have a different mindset. They're asking some profound questions about what's the meaning, what's the purpose? We talked a lot about Gen Z asking that, both men and women, and we're finding that the pandemic has been a catalytic moment. For a huge population, you can talk about the great resignation, whether it's the boomers or if it's youngsters, everybody's asking, what is it about work? What is work anyhow? What should we be doing? So what happened? You got your coaching. Did you become a coach, and then begin to build your business?
Becky Morrison: So I showed up at UC Berkeley for a 10-day intensive, back when we were still doing 10-day intensives in person. And the first day, one of the first exercises they take you through, they call it the soul portrait and you stand up in front of a room. And at this point, all you've done with your cohort peers is exchange first names. That's it. And so you don't really know each other, and they ask you some really big coaching questions. And one of the questions they asked me was, What is your purpose? And I answered: to spread joy. And then I looked around, like who the heck said that? Because that was not something that I have ever consciously expressed before.
Andi Simon: I love the line. That is a purpose statement, isn't it?
Becky Morrison: And so then I said, Well, that's interesting. I'm not sure what I'm going do with that. Let me go through this experience. My thought had been with coaching, actually, to take back some executive and leadership coaching work into law firms, because lawyers are not trained in law school to be either leaders or managers, which means that some are and some aren't. It depends on the firm and it depends on the structure that they've given you to develop those skills.
And so I thought, hey, this could be fun because I really like that piece. I've seen firsthand how it can actually influence, not just the success of the individual, but the success of the firm or the client engagement to have people who aren't good leaders and managers there. Actually, I should just say effective. It's not about good and bad, it's about whether we have the skills, and that was my intention.
So I left Berkeley and had a bunch of certification hours that I needed to do. And so I engaged in a wide range of exploration of coaching. I saw different people at different places, different careers, different backgrounds, just to see what I might like. And I found a thread. And the thread was the one you've described, which is, I've done a lot, I've checked a lot of boxes, but something is missing. And I was like, this is an interesting thread because I'm familiar with this thread. You'll recall, I've experienced this thread personally, throughout the course of my life, and that led me to really thinking that that's the space I wanted to be playing in, but I wasn't sure how that was going to look.
And I had an intention in February of 2020. I got my certification, and thought, okay, cool, so now I'm going to really dial into this niche of trying to help people figure this stuff out. How will I do that? Well, I'm going to go and do a bunch of networking conversations and then I'm going to try and get some people to let me come in and do some lunch-and-learns so that I can kind of develop by experimentation because that's how I roll my framework, my approach, see what works, what doesn't, test out what I'm thinking.
Then March happened and there was no in-person anything. And there was no virtual anything for a period of time because people were really in survival mode as they needed to be. And so I decided to join a writer's retreat, instead thinking that that would give me some structure to play with some content. And thus, my book was born. I did not intend to write a book. I showed up to the first meeting of that writers' retreat group, in fact, and said, I'm here, I'm here to support you, if you're writing a book, that's awesome. I just want some structure for writing and creating content, I will not be writing a book. And out of my small pot of five writing peers, we still meet actually to this day, they're delightful. But I'm the first person to take a book to market. Famous last words, I'm not writing a book, but here we are.
Andi Simon: Did you self-publish that book or find an editor?
Becky Morrison: I sure did. And I did that intentionally because I didn't want to wait. It was very clear to me that the tools in this book were going to be helpful to people at the time that we're living in now. Because this experience of living through what we've lived through over the past two-ish years, for a lot of people have asked the question, it is called the prioritization question. It's really a global era of reprioritization, of really looking at what matters to us and how we want to live more in alignment with that.
Andi Simon: Well, I think that is very exciting. If you look at my archetype, I'm an explorer. And I've always been on the margins of what was stable and certain, and I've always been an executive in organizations that were changing. And, you know, I love change. When I launched my company, it was as a corporate anthropologist to help companies change. And people hated me and loved me. They had to change, they didn't know how to change, and we needed to figure out how to change.
But you are in your book, and in your beautiful website, and all the things that you're doing, transforming yourself and others at the same time. And I thought that this was a beautiful story to share. Because the transformation we're going through means your story's changing. And as you're telling it, their story is, and the challenge for people is that we like stability and continuity and certainty. And for the last two and a half years, we haven't had any of that. And consequently, humans are frail and very fragile when there's no stability. The ambiguity is as bad as dangerous places we can be in. Happiness? Who knows where that comes from? What will it look like? So you help them reestablish something. Help me, help them. How do you do it? What's your process?
Becky Morrison: So there's two tracks that I like to play with. I like to play with them simultaneously, not in the same exact second, but as we're working together, we're coming at it from both ends. And the first end is, that is the piece that's in my book. It's how do we identify your top priorities for this season of your life, whatever that may be? And how do we start living more in alignment with that? And then how do we equip you to re-identify or re-evaluate or re-calibrate when the season changes? Because it will, we've seen it happen recently.
The other end is, how do we at the same time that we're thinking about this greater architecture problem, how do we live happy or as happily as possible in the day-to-day without changing any circumstances? Because the science on happiness tells us that our circumstances matter to our happiness, but not nearly as much as our daily behaviors and thoughts you must be talking about. I think it's important to understand that there are two important pieces. That having positive emotional experiences, even in difficult circumstances, has really important neurological brain pathways and neurosystem benefits to us that equip us to do the bigger work of architecting our life.
Andi Simon: Sonja Lyubomirsky has a wonderful book called The How of Happiness. And I've also taken the Coursera Yale course on The Science of Well Being, I'm sure you have too. And it's funny, a lot about the science of this, about half of it could come from the situation we're in, but the other part is really in our own hands. So I'm curious, how have you developed? You're two years into this business. I'm 20 years into my business and I love it. Talk about what you're discovering. So what are the things that matter to find happiness? And how do you actually do it? What are your thoughts?
Becky Morrison: So the first thing, and when we talk about sort of coming at it from how do we improve everyday happiness, it's not going to happen by accident. It requires intentional action. And in order to take intentional action, to increase your happiness, you have to know what intentional action might bring more happiness. It's true, which I know sounds sort of obvious, except that a lot of people don't.
One of the early exercises we'll do is something that I call finding your joy menu or finding your essential sources of joy. We will literally sit down and figure out what are the basic building blocks of your positive emotional experience as a human being because they're different for everybody. And when I ask people that, we ask it in a more casual way, like, what I feel happy when fill in the blank, and often people will come up with things like, I feel happy when I'm on vacation. I feel happy when I'm with a loved one. I feel happy when I can wrestle with my dog on the floor, or when I'm with my dog, or my dog makes me happy, whatever. That's great. But you can't always drop everything and go on vacation. And you can't always drop everything and spend a whole day with a loved one doing things you love.
So the question is, how do you make it bite size so that it can drop into a day where it already feels full and overwhelming? So you take those things and you dig a little deeper. What is it about vacation? Or what is it about your dog or what is it about your loved one or time with your loved one, and let's get it all the way down to something that is literally dropper sized.
So I'll give you an example. For me, one of the things that I love about vacation, we often go to warm climates for vacation, and I love the sun on my face. Well, I don't have to leave Virginia. It's not very sunny right now. It's in the evening, but the sun was out today. I can go outside and put the sun on my face multiple times a day anytime I want. And the key is, when I do it with the intention to absorb the sun, to enjoy the experience, to savor the warmth, then I've created a positive emotional experience for myself. And the more we do that, the more we broaden our abilities or capabilities in the moment and the more we build our stores of resilience, and both of those things are critically important to weather the tough stuff.
Andi Simon: But I bet the onesies need twoseies and threesies. And I'm sure you add, besides going out to get sun on your face, which I agree with and it's 20 degrees here. So it's pretty cold. It's hard to get that warm feeling. Yeah, it's an illusion more than anything. And do you find that as you work with your folks, are there some patterns? Everyone is unique, but they're always a pattern.
Becky Morrison: There are definitely patterns of a couple of things. There's patterns of joy. Each individual can identify the patterns that they have. But, then there's also patterns of the ways we block our joy. There's patterns of the ways we sabotage that. I have a client who we were doing this exercise with. And look, I don't mean to imply that in coaching, you come to me and you just get a joy menu. That's just the starting point. And it's a starting point so that you can start intentionally injecting positive emotions into your day so that you have the skill set we need to do the hard stuff, the deep work.
But we were talking about this exercise because she was really at a point of feeling pretty burnt out. She's the dog parent with primary responsibility. And I was like, Well, how often are you outside with your dog? She's like, four or five times a day. Well, okay, are you enjoying that time? No, I'm not. I am on the phone every single time. So it's like, we have these things, but we block our access to them because we're so overwhelmed.
The last pattern that I think is important is also the pattern of our nervous system. You said something really important earlier and it's that we are in a place where nothing is certain and uncertainty does not feel good. And it particularly doesn't feel good for the nervous system which has as one of its primary job descriptions to keep us safe. And certainly, if you think of it in very primal terms, is one of the hardest jobs out there. And so our nervous system is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not okay, right? And so also, another pattern that can be really important is being able to realize when your nervous system is being triggered, or dysregulated. So you can take steps to work with that nervous system to put it back into a more regulated state so that you have more brain power, more executive function, to then do all of this other work to do the untangling, to do the unwinding.
Andi Simon: I want to get to the untangling and the unwinding. There's wonderful work, I've been reading Daniel Pink's book Drive again, and I'm using it for a leadership program. But he builds from intrinsic, and that tension between the intrinsic in the extrinsic and what motivates you to the wonderful research that gets to purpose. And I love his three summits there: you need autonomy, then you need mastery, and then you need purpose. And if that's what you need to be motivated to do well, it also is the same kind of thing to feel happy. And I saw the daily side and the bigger purpose side. Talk to me about the bigger purpose side, because that's not inconsequential. That's actually what it's all about.
Becky Morrison: That is what it's all about. And all this daily stuff that I do is actually, like I said, to equip you to do the purpose work, because that can be really big, deep, and a little bit jarring work if you haven't done it before. The one thing I will say is that I think about purpose a little bit differently than other people, in that I don't think about purpose as like a single north star to guide your life, or a single sort of, I'm put on this earth to do only this. I told you, when I went to Berkeley, they asked me what my purpose was and I said to spread joy. Yeah, I believe my purpose in this season of my life is to spread joy. And I believe that could change. And I'm open to it changing. And I now know, and I have the tools to recognize when the change might come.
So all of that said, the purpose of my work that I do is really about identifying what is most important to you in this season of your life so that you can do more of that and less of the rest. But it starts with getting to a place where you can even take stock of what's on your plate, which if people are coming to me in the throes of overwhelm and burnout, is very difficult to do initially without first doing this coming down on the other side. That said, once we've got that under control, we can begin to dive in and say, Okay, what's really taking your time, energy and resources? What do we need to get rid of? What do you need more of and if I could somehow rewrite the recipe for happiness that I wrote myself, it would highlight the last of the rest as the most important.
Andi Simon: We use similar approaches. I have a bunch of tools that I adopted from what I did with organizations who are full of people, to individualize, are they that different? Maybe, maybe not? But at the end of my book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, I have a how-to, my seven steps. And I turned that into an online course called Rethink your journey with Andi Simon. And what's most interesting to me, though, is that you need to take a look. One of the things we do is take a look at the last 12 months and write down 10 things that really gave you joy. It's hard for people. I said, it's okay, dig deeper, you know, talk about it. And then 10 things that really gave you pain, that's often easier, but not pretty. And then we squeeze it down until we come to three or two or one of the most important values there.
And then we go into a process much like yours: what are we going to do more of to emphasize the ones that give us pleasure, and less of, the get away from the ones that go through pain, but don't get a start, stop and are sacred. It's not hard. And when I do it with a group of people, I'm always fascinated because they really know how to change the organization. They work really hard doing it.
First we have to figure out what it is we're going to do and then do it for an individual. It's very interesting watching the eyes as they're thinking about the things that they don't want to do anymore. It's okay to say no to the things that you don’t want to do. How are you going to do that? Nobody's stopping you. But until you have a plan, a personal plan for happiness, you can’t take steps in any direction.
And I find that sometimes it symbolizes why Sonja's book was so fascinating because it wasn't that complicated. And I love the wonderful detailed course on the science of well-being. What makes you happy is kindness, gratitude, acts of giving, talking to people, exercise, and a good night's sleep. People said to me, yes, look at the research. And that tells you that there's science behind this, not just Andi Simon saying so. And it's a good time. So in your book, what's in your book, because I really want to go find your book. I just discovered your book, tell me what is in the book.
Becky Morrison: So the book is based on exactly what I've already said. My premise for the recipe for happiness, which is: do more of what matters and less of the rest. I've identified three things. And you alluded to them that get in our way of execution. The first is, I call it the authenticity gap, but it's the knowing gap. Do you actually know? Do you have an awareness of what matters most to what you need to let go of? Are you willing to claim it right now? And then, we live in a doing world. So we go right from do you know, to how do we? And so that's actually my third gap. And I'm going to come back to the middle gap in a minute.
But the third gap is what I call the physical energy gap. It's the doing gap. Are you actually living in alignment with that formula? And if not, how do you get there? How do you shift your behavior? How do you shift your habits? Habits, all of that, the middle gap is the believing gap. And it's the mindset gap. It's the things that stop us from taking the knowing into the doing. And we often forget to spend a little time there to say, What beliefs or feelings do I have today that might sabotage my ability to execute? Let's address those proactively. Let's figure out how to get over guilt, how to say no. How to stop what iffing, all the things, how to work with our nervous system, all of that lives in there.
And one of my challenges is always theories. Theories are great but how do I execute them? I want to do, what's the doing. So I wanted to leave people with a set of tools. And so every single chapter has at least one exercise that you can deploy, to sort of move the needle on that topic. Whether it's saying no, or shutting down guilt or incorporating celebration, which is one of the things I put in the activity in the physical energy gap. But it's all there.
Andi Simon: I'm enjoying listening to you. It's hard to find people who know what we do, who do it with joy. But I also always tell my folks to listen. Your mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. I like Marissa Pier’s work. And I like Martin Seligman, stuff on positivity. But it is, I like the little bit of science in the story so that they can begin to understand that you have a story in your mind. Your mind said you can call it, but there's a story there. And that's your illusion of reality. And it's an illusion. And so nobody's making you feel sad, you are allowing your mind to feel sad. And there are things you can do, like gratitude. Diaries are gratitude and things that can change the chemistry in your brain make the oxytocin soar. And next thing you know, you're smiling.
The second thing is that you live your habits. And those habits are very efficient. Your brain uses 25% of your body's energy. You wanted to do the habits, go for it. Learning something new takes energy. And the mind undermines it, that amygdala hijacks it. So as you're going from your two points, and that mindset in the middle, you've got to work on changing the story. And telling it often until your mind begins to see, feeling, thinking, believing it to be the new story.
I'm glad you're shaking your head, yes instead of no because at the end of the day, you are what you are. And the last thing is, the mind goes to pleasure. Even if it's painful. It's what's familiar. And if you're going to make new things familiar, that means you need practice. I'll put a plug in here. We have these wonderful 30 day challenges designed to help people practice self care. And it's fascinating to watch because without practice, nothing changes. It takes about 30 days for a new habit to develop. So some of the things you do to help them because I think what you've got here is magical. It can really be transformative.
Becky Morrison: Yeah. I think you've nailed it, right. And it's like this: if I'm a right handed person and I was told to start writing with my left hand. I could do it, but it's going to be hard. It's going to be uncomfortable. I'm not going to like the way it looks. I'm not going to like the way it feels. And unless my right hand is inaccessible, because it's hurt or in a cast, I'm just going to put the pen back in the right hand because it feels better. Even if you told me that key, if you learn to write with your left hand all these rewards await, you know it’s just uncomfortable, right? And so you're absolutely right that there is an element of training that has to exist.
The very first exercise in my book, I call it, Expect Discomfort. That has been the quickest way to defuse the power of discomfort is to anticipate it. When you are trying to resist that discomfort, when you are focused on the discomfort, when you're thinking ahead for more discomfort, it becomes all that much more uncomfortable. When you just expect this is going to feel funny, but I'm going to do it anyway, that can be a powerful tool.
And so I think it is just practice, acknowledging the discomfort and taking a different action, whether that's a thought pattern or an actual habit that you're developing. Habits are an interesting one because they play a real role, as you highlighted, a really important role. And for many people who are very achievement driven, they can be an absolute mind game because we have this goal. Or I'll speak for myself, and I've experienced with many of my clients, checking the boxes of our habits. And it's like, if I can do it quicker, I'll get to the end quicker. But here's the spoiler: habit never ends. It only ends when you die. So where's the rush, my friend, to build a sustainable pattern of behavior when you're building a habit. So how do you do that in a way that you can start and build to where you want to go?
Andi Simon: You know, as I think about what we're discussing, I think about my grandkids. They are happy kids, and I give my kids, my daughters, and their husbands a lot of credit for it. But it's also the surrounding world that they are in. The athletic games that they have. Horseback riding is pretty good for happiness. And, it's interesting to watch them grow with smiles on their faces. But I also know that you nourish it, and you nurture it, and you teach them how to think happy. And don't think it just happens. You need, all during their early years, to form that mindset that says, I'm a happy person, my cup is half full or overflowing. And it's okay to be like that.
And so you know, parents, think carefully about the impact your own stories have on your children, because you want them to have a story about their happy person. However we define that this is such fun. Becky, we're about ready to wrap up. You and I can talk a lot. We may try it again, in six months, you can tell us how you're doing because this is a new venture that I hope does well. And I hope that our listeners think, What can Becky do to help me? And how can her book help me as well? Where can they find the book? And how can they get to know you?
Becky Morrison: Let me go in reverse order. The best place to find me online is on my website, which is untanglehappiness.com. And you can get links to buy the book there. You can find me on social media there. And you can learn more about the work that I do there. So I'll make it one stop shopping.
Andi Simon: Good. It's also a beautiful website done beautifully. And she looks beautiful there too. You want to say you're a happy woman? Well, I think this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. So to all of our listeners across the globe, thank you for coming. It's always a pleasure to share great people with you, like Becky Morrison. And part of my job is to help you get off the brink. And so today's On the Brink with Andi Simon has been all designed to help you to find that happiness. It's right there in front of you, if only you can see it. And that's a really interesting opportunity because there's a little bit of science that can help you understand that the way forward is all around you, if only you can see it, open your eyes, get a fresh lens and begin to think about what makes you happy and do more of that and less of what doesn't. It's not as sophisticated as you might think.
But it does help sometimes to have a coach. We're both coaches, and we both want you to turn lemons into lemonade or someone said, limes into margaritas. Whatever makes you happy. It's okay. Our books are all on Amazon. The Happiness Recipe is certainly on Amazon. Both of my books, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, just a year old and it's been doing gangbusters stuff and turning lots of women to see what's possible.
One of my favorite reviews when it first came out was a gentleman who said, I have a 13-year-old daughter, she's a minority and I finally have a book I can give her to show her what she can be. That's the whole point of sharing our stories. So, thanks for coming. Keep sharing stories and bring me lots of good guests. I love sharing their stories. And when you bring them along, it's pretty fun. Goodbye, Becky. Have a great day. All of you, stay safe, stay healthy. Bye bye now.
Good. It's also a beautiful website done beautifully. And she looks beautiful there too. You want to say you're a happy woman? Well, I think this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. So to all of our listeners across the globe, thank you for coming. It's always a pleasure to share great people with you, like Becky Morrison. And part of my job is to help you get off the brink. And so today's On the Brink with Andi Simon has been all designed to help you to find that happiness. It's right there in front of you, if only you can see it. And that's a really interesting opportunity because there's a little bit of science that can help you understand that the way forward is all around you, if only you can see it, open your eyes, get a fresh lens and begin to think about what makes you happy and do more of that and less of what doesn't. It's not as sophisticated as you might think.
But it does help sometimes to have a coach. We're both coaches, and we both want you to turn lemons into lemonade or someone said, limes into margaritas. Whatever makes you happy. It's okay. Our books are all on Amazon. The Happiness Recipe is certainly on Amazon. Both of my books, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, just a year old and it's been doing gangbusters stuff and turning lots of women to see what's possible.
One of my favorite reviews when it first came out was a gentleman who said, I have a 13-year-old daughter, she's a minority and I finally have a book I can give her to show her what she can be. That's the whole point of sharing our stories. So, thanks for coming. Keep sharing stories and bring me lots of good guests. I love sharing their stories. And when you bring them along, it's pretty fun. Goodbye, Becky. Have a great day. All of you, stay safe, stay healthy. Bye bye now.
Hear how to create an environment where people love to work! I always enjoy talking with Terry Nichols (H.E. Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols). We had a great conversation during our first podcast in January of last year. Today we discuss how Terry’s life story has taken him in many directions, leading him to a splendid place where he is helping people find their own way. After learning that he is a Native American, he began to see his own life through a fresh lens. In the U.S. Navy, he experienced a range of tests and challenges which led him to become an innovator and visionary. Now as a Visionary Strategist, Terry works with those seeking to change the way they and their businesses achieve success. Listen in and learn!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Success not based on fixed goals but on a long-term appreciation of achievement
During our podcast, Terry and I not only talk about his ideas around consortium, vision, achievement and what makes a good leader, we also touched on Evolutionary Healer, a global transformational performance improvement company which he co-founded with his wife, Linda Vettrus-Nichols, as well as his work with the United Refugee Green Council.
About Terry Earthwind Nichols
H.E. Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols is co-founder and chairman of Evolutionary Healer. He also leads Earthwind Academy which specializes in training practitioners, small business coaching and consulting programs. You can connect with Terry through his website, LinkedIn and Twitter, or email him at terry@evolutionaryhealer.com.
Want to be an awesome leader whose employees achieve great things? Start here
- Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
- Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?
- Podcast: Peter Winick—Can A Thought Leader Help You Think Better?
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink, a fresh lens to take you and your business to new heights. I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to help you get off the brink. I don't want you to get stuck or stalled or not be able to continue to grow personally or professionally. So who do I have here today? Remember, I go looking for people who can help you see things through a fresh lens.
So today it is an excellent ambassador Terry Earthwind Nichols. Now Terry and I met through Peter Winick, a wonderful thought leader group. Terry is an extraordinary thought leader among the top of the top. And he's graced our video and audio today with some really wonderful insights about the changes he's seen all around us. Now, as you know, as we're coming out of this pandemic, and I know we'll come out of it, we're all learning to live in a different way. The businesses we're working with, we see they're all trying to rethink how they run their business. What is the culture? You know, how we manage, evaluate? How do you reward or evaluate remote workers? Is it my output or outcome or time spent?
Everything is in flux. Humans hate that. If you haven't noticed, we want certainty. But where you don't have it, you never have it. But we're going to talk today about what Terry is seeing, what I'm seeing, and what you should be looking at. So you can see through a fresh lens, how to rethink your own life, and those in your business. And those all around you, Terry, thank you for joining me.
Terry Earthwind Nichols: Thank you for bringing me in. And yeah, this is a terrific follow-up from great conversations we've had over the last couple of years. So yes, I'm glad to be here.
Andi Simon: I could read Terry's bio but I want him to share with you his bio, because his journey has been an interesting one: Navy, all over the world, the work he's doing. He's going to Nigeria. He's got a really rich life. Let him share it with you, please. Who is Terry Earthwind Nichols? And then we'll talk all about what you want to share today. About consortiums, because it's exciting stuff.
Terry Earthwind Nichols: Yes, well, the name starts out to be kind of interesting. I was born in western Montana and raised in the Rocky Mountains. Mountain boys run up and down the sides of mountains and those kinds of things. And I was raised to believe I was a fourth generation Irish American white boy. And it wasn't until I was 46 years old that I found out I'm Native American. And so I contacted my tribe and connected with them. And they gave me the tribal name Earthwind, which means his breath across the earth, because they knew that a lot of my journey and in life and what I'm doing with my companies has to do with a lot of world travel. And so Earthwind was the name they gave me. And that works really well for branded and otherwise because if you were to Google Terry Nichols, you get about 17,000 in North America alone. That's a lot of Terry Nichols!
Andi Simon: A lot of Irish Americans.
Terry Earthwind Nicols: Yeah, right. And, you know, Terry Earthwind Nichols, you get my companies, my social media, YouTube, podcast, whatever. And there's only one in the world. So that works out very well for me. And for you numerology people, it's a prime, all my variables of my name, come out to the prime number of eight infinity. So I keep going and going and going and kind of like the energy of the Eveready bunny from back in the late last century.
Andi Simon: Energizer? Well, you are an Energizer Bunny. Over your journey, though, you've had a number of very important, I'll say catalytic moments as your career has developed. And like catalytic moments, I'm a believer in serendipity. So, infinity, sir, tell us a little bit about that journey so that people can really appreciate the wisdom that you're going to bring them.
Terry Earthwind Nichols: Well, I'm one of those people that walks into a room and unconsciously people are drawn to me, particularly the leadership who may be in the room. That happened to me many times in foreign ports in foreign countries. I would be part of that delegation from my Navy ship to a welcoming of some sort. And invariably, the military commander of the whole area would end up talking to me for half an hour or more and talking to my seniors for a couple of minutes and that was it. And so that's happened a lot to me in my life.
I loved my 20 years as a Navy man because I got to see a lot of the world and meet a lot of very interesting people. And now that I'm out, I've had many jobs and many careers. And all of that has served me to what I'm doing right now. And that's speaking on the world stage about many things, with thought leadership being a primary one. I am mentoring some very high level executives from around the world with all of that experience in my journey in life. At 69 years old, I am having the best time, even with COVID. You know, yes, I love speaking on the stage. But I've spoken to 1000 or more people right here, online. So that continues as well. It's been a wonderful life, and I look to even more things coming in the future.
Andi Simon: Well, it has been and I agree with you, COVID has, for those of us who adapt well, we found all kinds of new values and roles to play. You have your eighth book coming together and I was very interested in how you were developing it. Tell the listeners a little bit more about the seven books because they seem to all be built on each other. And then we'll talk about this eighth one because it's about consortium. And I'm writing my third book and we're focusing on how collaboration has become so essential for people to run good business but also to build a good society. Tell me about your books, all seven of them, and then we'll talk about the eighth.
Terry Earthwind Nichols: Well, the first two books are about my journey in life. My Facebook friends, my social media friends, all encouraged me to write this down. You got one interesting story. So I'm writing 13 volumes, which will ultimately become a biograph. Each book is a chapter of the big book so that when we get all 13 of them done. In Native American culture 13 is a lucky number, not an unlucky number. And so 13 books, 13 chapters, one result.
And then my wife and business partner and I have written two books about what we teach people. Evolve your business, things that are very important for people who have started up a business and now they want to take themselves up to that next level. This is great information. Teachings from the Fire is a little bit of Native America again where we put some basic teachings together for life and for career, things to think about at different points as you journey in life.
This one all the way up here in the corner up there is a compilation of my poems and quotes that people love. I put a book out just for that. And Andi and I, as she mentioned earlier, Peter Winick’s wonderful group put this compilation book together about how to hire and how to look for people in the 2020s. You know everything's changed. And from that, I've taken my teachings in business, from my mentees and my coaching clients, and I am creating book number eight right now, which is Consortium: The New Business Model for the 21st Century.
So consortium is coming together with other people, other thoughts and collaborating with each other to create a non-competitive, collaborative business environment. So the business across the street no longer has competition. You're partners in service to the community changes the mindset and everything changes.
So what is consortium really? Ladies and gentlemen, think for a moment about the last time you really achieved something. How good did you feel? How bad did you want to do that? Again, you wanted to repeat that feeling. And if you did it in a company, or in a group of people, you want to connect with those people again and do it again. So if your company that you work for becomes people-centric, and not resource-centric, so we're throwing out the words human resources and making it people-centric, and the people become the place to go to get your records, you become part of a vision of a company that is not connected to timelines and goals.
Timelines and goals and the old business model made it very right to make liars out of people, to make dishonest people out of honest people. And let's face it, we've all missed goals over and over and over again, and you get very deflated and burned out. But if you take away those metrics in a business model, and you build in a set of achievable stops along the way to get to a vision that you all share, here's what happens. People who achieve regularly, they don't get sick, they live a healthy lifestyle, they're happy at home and at work, therefore, they don't burn out. And people who are happy and can't wait to get to work, do exactly that. So work from home is not as important anymore as getting back with the team and doing the next achievement. So people don't leave those companies. Great resignation kind of nullifies itself. When you have a company like the Virgin Group, you know, they do it right.
Take care of your employees, they'll take care of your clients. Right? And they do it every time. He's like the Midas touch. Richard Branson, Sir Richard, is Midas touch anything he does, it rolls, because he's got that mindset. Take care of the people, hire good people, hire for brains, not for models, right? Not a good old boy network or anything like that. Diversity, and those kinds of things are not really as important in Virgin Group, as brains. People who can contribute to a whole, they're going to be happy and well taken care of. They'll take care of their people. So that's a great model right there for that. So that Andi is where Consortium has come from, and it's going to move to the fore here, rather quickly, I believe.
Andi Simon: You know, though, human beings hate to change. Their mind creates all kinds of wonderful cortisol, your amygdala likes to hijack the new. Even as you're speaking, I find myself saying to myself, well, yes, but and the intrinsic motivations. When you talk about Richard Branson, and trying to find the right people, there's wonderful research that is out there about if you make it playful, people love to come and have fun with their work. If you engage them, you know, Google's 20. You have 20% of your time, you can do anything you want. And some of its best ideas have come out of those 20%.
There's a tech company in Australia — Atlassian. It gives people a day a month to do whatever they want. It's called FedEx Days. They give employees a chance to work on anything they want for 24 hours and deliver it overnight, hence the name. All these kinds of things are important.
You made a mention about whether the remote was good or bad or coming back into the office. And I have a bias and that is, I think people have a choice where they want to work. The question is, what do you want them to do? And the problem isn't the workspace or how they collaborate or gather, it's enabling them to add value to whatever it is you'd like to do.
We have had a wonderful client for five years now. And all 70 of the employees are remote. And some of them want to come back and some don't. But it's irrelevant. The question is, how do we help you get the job done, however you'd like to work? Isn't that a wonderful mature opportunity in this day of technology. But the word consortium is a very powerful one. And I don't want to lose its impact because you're not simply saying collaborate, you're saying, which I think is extremely powerful right now. It's not coordinated. It's not command and control. It's how do you gather the resources and let them work on it? But it also requires new ways of working. Any thoughts about the consortium organization?
Terry Earthwind Nichols: Very good point. When you have a consortium, you have a mixture of experience, model sets, mindsets. When you bring in, you know sports people love the analogy, you bring in your team and you build a team that's dedicated to each other. And the result of that dedication is winning. Now, what happens if you take out the need to win, and you leave in the best players. The best players will win because they take care of each other, they respect each other, and they can't wait to work with each other remotely or otherwise because a lot of what we do is on a computer screen anyway. Okay, a desktop model of some sort.
So both an in-office and remote combination is perfectly fine. The concept in Australia I think is an excellent one. And the consortium of people that we have for our consortium division is called Evolutionary Heater. We are working with Global Fortune 500 companies. Depending on the type of industry of the company. Let's say it's a bank. I love to use a bank analogy. I bring in three, sometimes four, including myself, world renowned experts, specialists in the banking and financial industry, to go to work for this corporation and work with them for three years. And then we bring in specialists that are needed as we progress through the three years to do something with the Chief Experience Officer.
For instance, I have somebody who's really incredible in Germany, who does experience, and they work with that person, and they're part of that corporate world, until whatever we brought him in for is completed and then they leave. They're not there for three years. Okay? So we get this collaboration of brains to step in and work with the leadership at the apex level of the corporation and then show them how to take it to their people. So their people can actually do the work. Yeah, because there's not complete buy-in for an office full of outsiders coming in and consulting and telling people what to do.
However, you create a consortium of your people to create a vision for themselves in their division, or whatever it is. Then building achievements with somebody who comes in once in a while and asks him to answer some questions that they may have, and then takes off and allows them to create this achievable vision that they're doing. Powerful. And that's a consortium more than anything else, that collaboration is a basic necessity to have all the time. You don't have to sit all the players down every time to have a meeting.
Andi Simon: You have three thoughts here I'd like to emphasize for the listeners or the viewers. One of which is the word vision. I always use the word visualization, the way the mind works, is that it's a futurist. And if I can't visualize where we're going, which is exactly the problem you're trying to address with your team, I can't do it today. We are visionaries. But we're futurists so we're trying to craft something that we can see and feel that feels normal-ish while I'm leaving what I used to have.
My shiny object syndrome holds me tight to my past, and I'm trying to come to the new. But, if I can't see the new, I don't know how to like it. So the first part of your insights that you're sharing is that you're going to have to see this in some fashion. And the experts can't tell you if they have to help you experience it. We learn through experiential learning. The more we experience, the better it is.
The second thing is that in one of the chapters in my new book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, Andy Kramer was on the compensation committee of her law firm. And she was fascinated by the reviews. The guys all wrote reviews that told the story of how they had climbed the Empire State Building to save the damsel in distress, and save the company a $500 million loss. The women all wrote stories about how they worked together as a team and they never saved any damsel in distress, but they saved the customer from ever having a $500 million loss. And the two became really insightful for how men and women see things.
Of course, the guys got promoted and got the raises, got the partnerships, and the women kept their jobs. The value of collaboration, teamwork and women doing it was not valued to the same degree as the heroic story of the individual rising to the top. And I have a hunch that some of this is weaving through the work you're doing as well, because you said it quite well. You bring in the experts to provide subject matter expertise, but you have to enable the folks inside to begin to see things, feel them and then think about them. You smiled at me, am I correct? We are seeing the same things
Terry Earthwind Nichols: Spot on, and spot on creating a vision on the horizon ahead of you and a roadway to get there. Okay, every day, every way you see the vision, yes. And futuristic vision-oriented. And so every person will choose the bank again, the bank teller at the drive-up window of a little bank branch, USA sees the same vision as the chairman of the board. And when they come in every day, every place they look is the vision, the visual of the vision. Not the statistics, not the missed goals, none of that. The vision of the company that every player shares equally. When the bank teller comes up with an incredible idea to save money or perhaps create a new revenue stream, that should mean something to the corporation, big time.
So let's say the highest level that's possible comes down when you accept that bank teller's idea of savings, cost savings, whatever it is. What it represents in revenue for the first year, they get a percentage of it in a check. And whenever possible, the highest level executive that can possibly come and do that, shows up in person to give them that check. Now let's say Bank of America, a pretty big place. If Brian Monahan shows up at ABC bank branch in middle America to award a $1,000 check. It's the idea that the little person came up with and then they made some serious money in a corporation, that kid's world has changed forever. And everybody else in that bank branch will never slow down again. 20 years from now, they'll still be going as fast as they can because they believe in the vision.
The great resignation doesn't count for people who have companies, who are running companies where they really care about the people and allow the people to take care of everybody else and the customers. This is the future. People out there right now. They're not going to go back to work for those old companies that have leadership that can't lead. They're not supposed to be in charge of the coffee area and here they are running 50 people.
Andi Simon: Yeah, but you're also raising a big word: lead. What's the leader today? And you know, I'm watching some of my clients go through that great transformation where a command and control leader is turning into, they don't quite know how, into an enabler, a facilitator, a trainer, a developer, a person who can see opportunities and help you get there but not tell you how to. And that requires very different skills and conversations. And as you know, all day is a conversation.
So the conversations, they have to shift. We have a culture of change now. Do you have any special ways that you help them change those conversations? Because even though I was a banker for 15 years, and I was an executive in a savings bank and a commercial bank, and we were changing them, and man, we were on the floor all the time supporting the changes. If we stayed in our company offices somewhere and didn't show up, it couldn't have been important. And if you didn't celebrate, we know the mind only remembers what you celebrate. So some wisdom to share.
Terry Earthwind Nichols: Train your replacement. In my years, even as a young man in the Navy, I had mentors. People saw what I couldn't see in me and approached me and asked me if it was alright if they prepared me for the future. They could see great things in me. And they wanted to make sure that I could accomplish those things. And that's what a leader does today. It's not about sitting at your desk, counting numbers and seeing what has to change or what can change to make this month's goals. They are out there walking around.
Remember that back in the 90s, management was walking around. It's to touch people, walk around, touch people. You don't have to physically touch them, you can talk to them and touch them deep in their heart and their soul. Because you have recognized them as a real person. Not as slave labor. Not a means to my next bonus. You'll get your bonus, that's not what it's all about. It's taking people who could be in any kind of job, pushing a broom, it could be anyone who has something about them, that is not dangerous to you. You're not going to train them to replace your job, or maybe you are. Because if you train them to replace you, then you're going up. Because all these people are raising you.
So you're going up, you're not going to lose your job, you go into the next job. Well, that mentality of, I don't want to train anybody to do my work because they'll take my job and I'll be unemployed, is gone. The future is now in the futures of the young people because they have learned to be multiplistic and think with multiplicity. Whereas in my age group, we didn't do that. It was a B, C, D, G, two plus two is four. This is where we're going to literally move things. These guys are multitaskers. They think of 30 things at a time and you can't as leaders and supervisors get to stop and really think about and listen to these people. Their ideas are the future of your company. That's right. Okay, listen to the future, not us.
Andi Simon: My last thought and then we'll wrap up, Terry, you just said something important. Listen, but don't already have the answer in your head. Sometimes I have to do that when I'm doing my podcast. Listen, listen carefully. Listen to Terry, because you're going to hear things or you're going help your own story change. So a little storytelling, we live the story in our head. And when you have it in there, it won't change unless they experience or hear something new. That begins to transform it in some way. So my hope is that for our audience, listeners, and viewers, have listened to Terry.
Think about how his story has changed your story. Because he's saying the past was, the future is here, but it's still all developing. And together, we can go farther, faster than we could alone. In an old world where you waited for people to finish things and reward them, pay them, they never got to where they wanted and then they got angry. They had a 3% raise. Well, what are we working for? Yes, we work to make a living, but we also live to work.
Now the question is, if they would like to buy your books, Terry, where can they buy them? And then a couple of things you don't want them to forget. I always like to leave with one or two things that are important for them to remember.
Terry Earthwind Nichols: Well, one very important thing is to always listen to understand and not to respond. Listen to understand. And if you can be anything, be kind and they will come back to you. Whatever you send out in energy, good or bad, positive or negative, will come back at you multiplied. So start with yourself. This is not being selfish, start with yourself being okay and present with yourself. And then when you give a compliment or something to somebody, it's genuine.
The future of business is all about honesty and integrity. It's nothing to do with can I get you a sale? It's, can we be friends because over the next 20 years, I know I'm going to get a lot of business from me and that's okay, but I'm going to have a great friend. That's empowering, very much empowering. So that's what I would leave. Now, as far as my books. They're all on Amazon: Terry Earthwind Nichols, and you get all of my books.
Andi Simon: Your legacy has given you a unique position in life and I think it's been a fabulous day talking about things that matter to both of us in different ways. It is very much aligned around how do we help people? And I say these words carefully: you have to see, feel it, then think about it, and then do it. And so the question really is, how do I help you see, feel and think so you can then do things with new vigor.
Part of the changes that are happening that frightened everybody is that they're unfamiliar with them. And so it's like being dropped in a foreign country without a language to speak, but we figured it out, some better than others. As we continue to change, the speed of change is not slowing down. It's a fast changing time, and you're going to have to lead differently, build a different kind of business. All those people resigning or opening up their own business. 13 million women are opening businesses today, which is 40% of the businesses in the US. They're all bringing new expertise out into the market and there's a whole lot of new ways of helping each other by buying from each other and developing each other.
So these are great times for thinking about we, not I, and about thinking about where we're going together, as opposed to myself. So with that in mind, I will do one bragging. I have two books that I hope you get because they'll help you see, feel and think in new ways. My first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, is an award winner, a best seller and it's just a great way to see how companies have changed using a little anthropology. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessis exactly one year old and it has done extremely well. We're now building my second big event on May the fourth, which is rethinking women and we're not quite sure what the subtitle is. We're playing around with trends and insights and transformation because what we're watching is that these women are changing and the world they're in is changing. Can we help it move faster, further together?
On that note, I hope it's been a great day for you. I hope you please stay healthy and happy. Terry said be kind. If you know anything about the science of well-being, kindness is extremely powerful to make you feel better. So be kind, be grateful and say thank you, Terry, I'm glad you came today. Goodbye, everybody. Have a great day.
Hear how you can build wealth AND a happy life Laura Rotter and I met through the Business Council of Westchester, a wonderful organization that brings together great people, men and women. Laura is the founder of True Abundance Advisors, a financial life planning and wealth management firm. As she tells you her life journey, her story will resonate with you. She is a great woman to interview and share her journey with our listeners. I know you will gain knowledge about yourself, your business, and what makes you truly happy. Are you living to work or working to live?
Watch and listen to our conversation here
None of us find out what we “really” want to do at the beginning of our careers.
We are on a journey. Along the way, we discover all the things that we love to do and those that aren’t in our wheelhouse. Laura did just that. She had many years of managing money for institutional investors, then found that her definition of abundance was shifting. She will tell you how that discovery happened for her—and might happen for you. Her mindset changed from “I must use my life to make money,” to “I can use my money to make a life.” Sounds cool. It is.
About Laura Rotter
Laura's mission is to empower midlife professionals to use their money as a tool to create more freedom and flexibility. She is passionate about sharing her expertise to guide her clients toward decisions that integrate the attainment of both financial security AND life satisfaction. You can find Laura on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter, or you can email her at laura@TrueAbundanceAdvisors.com.
Looking for fulfillment, in your work and in your life? Here's a good place to start
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?
- Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink: A fresh lens to take you and your business to new heights. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. As you know, I'm your host and your guide. Our job is to help you get off the brink and that's not always so easy. So I go out looking for people who are going to help you do three things. Can you see in a new way, fresh lens? Can you feel it? Remember, we decide with the heart and the eyes. And then can you think about the problem you may have or the issue you may want or something that is really a trigger for you in a way that can help you actually do it. So I don't want to skip the action part.
But today, I really am delighted to have Laura Rotter with us. And she's smiling. And you're going to smile also as we listen to her talk about her own journey, but also about how she helps people see, feel and think in new ways. Because at the end of the day, we live our story as it is today. And we think that's reality, but it's just an illusion. And that illusion is taking care of us, but not necessarily taking us to where we'd like to go. And she's going to talk about how she helps people pause and rethink their story so they can begin to move somewhere new.
The question is, what's the problem to solve? It's not as if we have solutions. And she and I both approach women with the same kind of question, Let's really get to what matters to you. And what I find often is that they don't quite know. And then what's the real problem with getting that going? I don't know much about that either.
A little bit about Laura. She's the founder of True Abundance Advisors. Don't you love the name of that firm. It is a financial life planning and wealth management firm. Her mission is to empower midlife professionals to use their money as a tool to create more freedom and flexibility. And she's passionate about sharing her expertise to guide her clients toward decisions that integrate the attainment of both financial security and life satisfaction. This is financial well being and it isn't just wealth. It's well-being as a sense of purpose.
So we're going to be talking a lot about being present, encouraging gratitude, which I'm actually writing an article about gratitude. Gratitude improves our well-being in such important ways, clarity and abundance. Laura, I'm so delighted to have you here with us today. Thank you for joining us.
Laura Rotter: Oh, my pleasure, Andi. I'm so excited to be here.
Andi Simon: Why don't you share with our audience who's Laura? What's your journey been like? So who are you and tell us about yourself.
Laura Rotter: Oh, I'm happy to share my story. So I'm a career changer. I had close to a 30-year career on Wall Street. I always like to joke that I started when I was 12. And as I look back on that career, I really see it in thirds. So the first 10 years of my career were amazing. I loved what I did. I had been a nerd. Let's say in high school and a bit in college. And then when I began to work as an analyst, looking at companies and deciding whether or not I thought it was worthwhile to invest in them, I found a career that was intellectually challenging, that I was good at. And that, frankly, paid me a nice amount of money. And so it became my definition of who I was.
When you're in your 20s, you're looking for that identity and my work as an analyst on Wall Street gave me that identity. I had been an English Lit major in college. Specifically because I find that when you read books, you know, as an anthropologist like you, you're becoming aware of what's the political environment. What's the economic environment? What's the backdrop of that story? Well, being what was called a generalist on Wall Street, I didn't work on one specific industry. I was always learning new industries and what's affecting the industry, what's going on in the environment, economically, politically, that's having an impact. And so I really loved what I did for them.
Andi Simon: You sound like a Curious George. I often think of ourselves as curious Georges. We can't get enough. That's fascinating. How can I learn more? Hey, that was the first 10 years. And now you're going into the next stage. What happened?
Laura Rotter: So the next stage, I had three children, all in diapers under the age of three, which could be a whole other discussion. I was for both financial and logical reasons the primary breadwinner, not the primary caregiver, my husband became Doctor Mom. But still, it was quite a busy household. When I wasn't working, I was involved in childcare. I was busy. I was raising my children. I don't really remember thinking that much about what I did. I took it for granted, I was supporting the family. For the last 10 years of my career, so let's say early 2000s through 2013, I hated what I did. I was miserable.
Oh, first of all, the industry itself had shifted from the nerds in high school, as I said, who discovered that they could do something intellectually challenging and make money. Now, it was more and more the frat boys in college, who realized they could leverage their relationships into making money. It frankly became all about making money. And the economic environment had shifted. So that as interest rates lowered, everybody was chasing the same ideas for a lot of risk and not a lot of reward. And I was bored. I didn't share the values of the people I worked with. I was miserable. But, I had a story, right. I had a story that I needed to earn a certain amount of money and practically, I had put a lot of overhead in place in my household.
We have a 6000 square foot house on an acre of land. We had a vacation home. I had three kids in private school and camp and we took fancy vacations. I really had become trapped by the life I had created for myself. And around that time, I started to find mindfulness practices, and to practice yoga. I started to meditate. And it slowly occurred to me that like, Oh, I'm not going to get a do-over in my life. This is it. And that I myself was creating a story of victim. You know, that I had no choice in my life and that I was a victim of my life.
And then I had an extraordinary occurrence. I took a day off to go to a silent meditation retreat. I actually found the journal in which I wrote an entry as I commuted into the city the next day saying, I'm not going to be a victim of my life. I was working for Citigroup at the time. And I decided I was going to approach my boss and make some suggestions for changing the morning meeting, changing the way we discussed investment opportunities, so that I felt more engaged, and I was no longer just pushing through.
Well, Andi, I don't know if it was that same day but perhaps a day or so later, my boss called me into his office and said that there was a group-wide layoff, not for cause. And I was given a very nice severance package and he felt that my services were no longer needed. And I just want to share one more thing about that. So within that week, I accidentally fell down the stairs, like tripping down the stairs at home, and just started bawling. And my husband said, Laura, this is what you've been looking forward to. You've been wanting to leave, but you just couldn't bring yourself to do it. And I looked at him and I said, This has been my identity for close to 30 years.
I mean, you can hold both. And I was excited to have an opportunity to re-create and at the same time I was terrified. Who am I? So I explored a book: 90 Days to a New Life Direction. I explored becoming a yoga teacher. I actually did a yoga teacher training, then I decided with my tight hamstrings that was not my life's mission. I did interview several friends who had become rabbis later in life. I have a very strong spiritual yearning. And they all loved going to school and writing papers and that really wasn't drawing me.
Andi Simon: I love the story. I'm so glad you're sharing. I'm watching your face and I'm saying this is really a journey others need to listen to. And the next part.
Laura Rotter: The next part was becoming a financial adviser to women. I didn't quite know what that meant. I informational interviewed and ended up being asked to join an already existing wealth management firm, which I did for a little under two years. And there I learned what financial planning was and how much I really loved working with individuals.
I also realized that I wanted to create a firm in my own image that had a specific way I wanted to work with people. As I mentioned to you, a specific client I wanted to work with, specifically, midlife professional women who were similar to me, were either kicked out from or burnt out by their corporate jobs, and have the sense that there was more meaning and purpose to life than they had been able to feel. And to help them use their money to align with meaning. And so in fact, that was June, July 2016. I named my firm True Abundance Advisors and hung out a shingle, started the work I do today.
Andi Simon: That is just a great story. I want to emphasize a couple of parts that touch my heart, which is: did you have any support along the way? Or was this all your self-awareness as you began to reflect on who you are and who you were? Because you had a good husband, I'm assuming. Mine has always been my support, but he couldn't decide for me. Now I'm in business 20 years. And when I said to him, I'm going into my own business, he looked at me and said, Okay, what are you going to be? And I said, I don't know. So I found a PR firm. And John Rasika said, Andi, you're a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. And I said, bingo.
I didn't know anybody who was searching, and I picked up four clients right away. But to your point, though, we need to know who we are. And I always look to John. I can see him saying those words to me, because it was as if he had a mirror and he went, ah, bingo. That's who you are. Without my husband, I never would have been there. Did you have that support base for this? I'm always wondering whether women look for outsiders or are afraid to trust. How did the journey go?
Laura Rotter: I agree with you, Andi. There's no journey that's all alone. And so many things come up. As you asked me the question, the first support is a yoga teacher I found. Because that really opened me up to listening to that still small voice inside that I don't think I ever truly listened to in the same way. Also, when I was working for the other financial planning firm, I found a group called the Alliance of Comprehensive Planners who both taught a methodology of financial planning as well as a flat annual retainer fee, not taking commissions for selling products. Not necessarily even managing money. So not charging an asset under management fee, though I do manage money, but I really wanted to be agnostic. I just wanted to work on my client's behalf and not have any conflicts of interest.
And finally, I do want to shout out to my husband. Starting this entrepreneurial journey, I don't want anyone to have the idea that I hung out a shingle and then life just took off. It's always a series of peaks and valleys. And there was a time when, there aren't that many women in the financial services industry in general, and certainly not in my part of the business, and I was approached by several firms to consider joining them as an advisor. And it was during a low point where I felt like, well, maybe it would be good to know how much money is coming in each year with some little incentive to bring more clients in.
And I remember taking a walk with my husband. He has frankly always been more anxious about money than I am. And I told him that I was considering, I was in the middle of interviewing, joining another firm. He looked at me and he said, This is the most creative you've been in your entire professional life. Why would you leave that? And I get chills because I really felt responsible to him. I rocked his world by walking away from the income I was earning when I worked on Wall Street and it wasn't easy. And I really appreciate that he recognized.
Andi Simon: Your husband and mine should get to know each other at one point because they could share notes on their crazy wives who they love dearly, and they'll do anything. And I often go back, my husband refused to allow me to not finish my PhD. And he sat there while I read this awful document I had written and without a copy editor, and he and I went through this whole big dissertation, and I got my doctorate. But I must say, without his enthusiasm, I'm not quite sure I wouldn’t have walked away and said, yuck.
And then he encouraged me to take my daughters to Greece to do more research. I don't know, they were four and five years old, and I took my two kids on a plane to go study Greece. You know, you can't do it in life without a go-for-it person. Right?
So it's the same for these midlife crisis women. The ones that worry me the most are the solos, who don't have another. I become their other. And we become remarkably important to each other. Me to listen and provide encouragement in them to begin to craft a new direction in a way that matters to someone. And I watch them transform, I suspect you see the same. I get such joy, because I don't do anything except help them see themselves through a fresh lens. And all of a sudden, they go whoosh. And then they call back and say, We need a little more time. And it is most gratifying.
So is there a particular approach that you take? Because while you're talking about it in terms of financial well-being, it sounds like it's more inclusive of their life journey as well? Do you use your own experience to help them do the same? Or is it most particularly around just wealth management?
Laura Rotter: It is wealth management. But that's a piece of overall financial clarity and organization. It's a good question, Andi. So I want to say that I feel privileged. Most of the time people don't pick up a phone and call a complete stranger to talk about their money unless there is some life transition that they're going through. Often, I'll get a phone call, and I think you said this earlier in the introduction, people don't even know what they need. I came into this inheritance or I have this severance payment or what do I do with the money? That's the question that people have.
And so I feel like I create a safe space to ask questions and guide a journey that they're not otherwise asked, or they're not otherwise considering. When I first meet someone, even before they become a client, I ask the question, What about money is important to you? Now take a step back and reflect, what's the story? What have you made money represent? And it's important to recognize that to begin with.
I find cash flow, once we do start to work together, is a very important part of the work we do. And before I even look at the cash flow, we do a values exercise. I have 14 different values, chords, broad topics, with little lines underneath, such as community, family, philanthropy, work, what you know. 14 different areas of life, and choose the four or five that you believe that you live your life by. And then let's look at how you're spending money. And of course, there's never going to be always a direct correlation. But you want there to be some correlation between what you think guides your life vision and how you're actually using it.
We have scarce resources, money is a scarce resource. Time is a scarce resource. Energy is a scarce resource, and we're all more aware of it since the pandemic started.
Andi Simon: But you're absolutely right. You know, what matters and you need a process for digging into it. That's really cool. And keep going though, I don't want to interrupt your flow because it's the most interesting one.
Laura Rotter: Yes, so I think a values exercise is really important. There's a gentleman, George Kinder, known as the father of financial life planning, and he has the three questions: If you learned you had a year left to live, you otherwise will feel fine but you don't know when your last day is, would you change your life? And if so, how? And drilling down to the third question: If you find out that this is your last day, what would you regret not accomplishing? And these are just questions for me to understand what are the important things for this particular person I'm getting to know and just as importantly, for them to understand, what would you be missing? What is important to you to move forward on?
I use these kinds of questions to frame the journey, the plan going forward. Now, specifically for people in a big life transition, I do belong to an organization called the Financial Transitionist. And it's also very important when I've just started to work with someone who's had a big award, from a settlement, to take a deep breath, that not everything needs to be done right away. Often, I'll do a thought bubble exercise: What are you worrying about and what's coming up, and put together a document with all the thought bubbles and all the questions that come up. And to define this is what we need to take care of.
Now, let's say you were laid off. Do you still have life insurance? Where are you getting your health insurance? But these things, we don't have to address them right now. They can be tabled. Yes, you just got a big life changing settlement. Let's not rush to buy something, a new house, a new place to live. Let's take a deep breath and take our time. And this could be dealt with later. It's very important because people tend to get overwhelmed by the financial decisions they believe they need to make, and especially in a big life transition, to help people feel like you're okay. My yoga teacher would say, you're being held. Every time I approach a meeting, I remind myself I'm holding a safe space for people because money is a tough topic.
Andi Simon: It is. It is and change is equally tough. So you add the catalytic moments, the transitions and the money question together. And then people are not comfortable with the lack of certainty. And they really would prefer to know if it's a one box or a different box, but no box is most anxiety producing. And you become that box that moves them from, Oh, I'm scared to death to, Oh, I can at least hold the boxes for a moment and begin to move forward with somebody to guide me and in some ways, that's okay. It's okay to have a guide. You don't need to do it alone. And you'll need someone who you trust. Because having somebody who is a financial planner that we lost trust in that is not good. And now we have someone who is extremely trusting.
But as I listen, it's interesting to think about what do we value? And it's one thing to get great returns in the markets today, when it's also a good time to think through what are we investing in and why and what really matters. I must tell you, I could keep talking to you for a long time. Mostly, you're an inspiration to me as I'm listening to you. And having gone through some catalytic moments myself, I remember that feeling. And you've come out of this really on a high, to your husband's point, you've created something of great value for yourself and those you take care of. Laura it's time to wrap up. So let's give the audience one or two things you don't want them to forget as they're thinking about their own lives. You know, what is it that Laura brings to you, my audience here, that you want to remember? Some thoughts?
Laura Rotter: I'm not sure if this is a financial question or a mindset question. So I'm going to answer it from the mindset point of view, which is, first of all, our values are always shifting. It's not like I look back at my time on Wall Street and regret it in any way. What was important to me when raising a family, when young, when building my financial resources, shifts over time. And as we age, we have a greater sense of the legacy we want to leave and what the meaning of our lives is that's quite different in our 20s than it is in our 50s and older. So I guess, then I would ask your listeners to consider their North Star, what are the values that they live by. At this time, not judging what you did in the past, not worrying about what you're going to do in the future, but presence. I was learning with someone who said all the exercises we do with our clients at the end of the day, it's all about presence.
Andi Simon: You sound like my mindfulness video that I listen to as I try to go to sleep at night. And I find that whether it's meditation or mindfulness, but that story is exactly the story. Yesterday, all is done is done. Tomorrow, it hasn't come yet. Right now be the moment. And it's okay to have a presence in the moment while you're moving into the next day. And so as we were talking, I'm saying to myself, I really love that it leaves me with this feeling like it is okay just to be in the moment. It's okay. But it is a real interesting time for all of us. And as you think about the folks that you're helping, they are better because of the collaboration with you. And it isn't as if you do and they get. It's together, we become better.
Laura Rotter: Yes, and I do want to make sure that I mentioned: I find that women often as a generalization more than men have a lot of blocks around money. I mean, I've worked with couples where the women are the primary breadwinner and yet feel insecure about understanding about money. And so, on my website, I do have an exercise you can access to unblock your money blocks. It's a cute name, but it has a lot of advice for mindset issues. How to think about your money in a way to move forward.
Andi Simon: That's worth another podcast because when you work with women entrepreneurs, as we often do, they're proud of the fact that they have grown their business without any outside capital. And we get irritated that the venture capitalists only give 2.8% of their money to women. But the women have a mindset that says, you know, Sara Blakely can celebrate the fact that Spanx grew without any venture capital money. I hear women tell me all the time: I didn't have to give it away to grow it. And if we should change the standards a bit. I can do it mom all by myself and watch me here. And that is a female story that I hear over and over again. When you talk to them about getting outside capital, they won't give it to me anyhow. There's a whole world there about women and that money, but they do really well in the market. Women really are very good at saving and investing and growing. And sometimes spending too.
Laura Rotter: We're not chasing the latest greatest sexy investment idea.
Andi Simon: We also think about legacy, though, what do we leave for others? And how does it have an impact? And those are important. It's been such a pleasure to meet you. I'm so delighted that you came on. I'm glad that the Business Council of Westchester gave us an opportunity. It's been so much fun. Laura, we will put into the blog that we write with the podcast where they can reach you but you might want to tell the listeners how to best get hold of you.
Laura Rotter: Well, you can check out my website trueabundanceadvisors.com. And my email address is Laura@trueabundanceadvisors.com. And also on LinkedIn and Facebook and Twitter.
Andi Simon: Who isn't on LinkedIn? I wonder but I know some people who aren't but LinkedIn is our directory of directories. It has been a fun time today. I hope our listeners and viewers appreciate the wisdom that Laura has brought with her life journey. The experiences are not uncommon, but sometimes you need a story to show you the way out. And that's just what we've had today.
Now, for all of you from across the globe, I can't thank you enough for joining us. Remember my book is here for you to help you transition as well. And the first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights that won an award is all about how to see, feel and think in new ways for your business. A little anthropology can help you grow. And Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is all about women. People like Laura who simply said of course I can and I refuse to accept the barriers or boundaries or the myths that say women can't. You can find some great stories in there to inspire you with your guy or gal. And I hope you stay healthy and enjoy whatever it is you're doing because the times are changing, and please stay in the moment. It's a great time to just focus on the joy for the minute. Hey, thanks again.
Hear how to navigate change so you can grow and thrive
Laurie Hirsch Schulz did something quite awesome: she left corporate life to pursue her calling as a coach and a champion for small businesses, particularly for women solopreneurs. She had a great job, only to discover that she had had enough. Sounds like a recurring theme among many of our podcast guests. They are talented women ready to steer their power and their energy in new directions. Laurie's creative genius is in seeing unmet needs in her markets and finding innovative ways to solve them—rather Blue Ocean style. So much to learn from her! Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
We talk about the many different types of leaders Laurie works with:
- Career Explorers: Professionals who are ready to purposefully define what personal and career success means to them and build the path forward to get there.
- Small Business Founders: Mission-focused entrepreneurs who are committed to building their businesses by harnessing opportunities in an ever-changing world.
- Not-for-Profit Leaders: Non-profit CEOs committed to building mission-driven, strategically sound, high impact organizations that are change resilient, even with limited resources.
About Laurie Hirsch Schulz
Partnering with individuals and organization leaders to navigate change and disruption when the path forward is unclear, Laurie specializies in building effective action plans that reflect mission and values while identifying and working through roadblocks that may get in the way. Through her firm, LHS Coaching, Laurie takes a collaborative approach to empowering individuals through 1:1 services, Mastermind groups and interactive workshops.
Laurie is the founder of Broad River, a networking organization that provides women with a relaxed space to connect and build community together. She also serves on the board of Westchester Youth Alliance. You can connect with her on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram or her website LHS Coaching, or email her at laurie@lhscoaching.com.
Trying to build and grow a business? Here are some great places to start
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Blog: Best Practices to Scale Your Business for Growth
- Podcast: Kim Bohr—Assessing Your Company’s Organization To Sustain Growth In Changing Times
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink, a fresh lens to take you and your business to new heights. Hi, I'm Andi Simon and I love my podcast because I can bring to you all kinds of interesting and wonderful people. We share our conversations and more stories to help you see, feel, and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. I cannot tell you how many folks come to us because they are literally on the brink. They are sure they don't want to do what they've been doing, but are totally unclear what they might like to do. And in the lack of certainty, humans become immobilized. We become a deer in the headlights. And so our job, as coaches, anthropologists, and as consultants is to help you see what's possible, and then help you actually try it. And it's not as hard as it might seem because there are so many of us who are doing this.
Now, today I have with us Laurie Hirsch Schultz, whom I met through the Business Council of Westchester. What a great organization. It is a great organization. And I welcome her here. Let me tell you about her. Let me read you her bio. It's very exciting. Laurie Hirsch Schulz partners with individuals and organizational leaders to navigate change and disruption where the path forward is unclear.
Now I say that to you because humans hate the lack of clarity. We want certainty. Think about the pandemic. The thing that disrupted us most of all was that we didn't know what was happening. We're futurists. If we don't know where we're going, it's hard to live today. Big problem.
Laurie coaches, focusing on building effective action plans that reflect mission and values while identifying and working through roadblocks that might get in the way. Through her practice, LHS Coaching, she takes a collaborative approach to empowering individuals through one-on-one services, mastermind groups and interactive workshops. This is going to be a fun conversation, in part because it's just because I like Laurie a lot, but I also love the things that she's done. And I'm going to let her tell you her story. And then we'll talk some more about how do you, whoever you are, man or woman, begin to think about your life through a fresh lens. Because the times they are a'changing, as Bob Dylan sang in 1964 and it's still happening. And you don't want to be the last out. Laurie, thanks for joining me.
Laurie Hirsch Schulz: Oh, Andi, I really appreciate you having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation as well. So I've been a coach since I started my business in the fall of 2018. Before that, I had a 20-plus year corporate career. I worked for Kraft Foods for 15 years. I worked for Visa, the credit card company, for another seven and a half. I was a marketing strategist. So I never aspired or expected to be an entrepreneur or a solopreneur, which is what I am today. I took a really traditional path. I graduated traditional, I graduated from undergrad, I worked for four years in PR, I got my MBA, and then I went straight into Kraft Foods. And I worked there for 15 years doing marketing strategy leading a variety of teams. Then I moved to Visa where I led an internal marketing consulting practice. And, again, pretty traditional until 2017 when it just wasn't working for me anymore.
It was a good career. I kept moving forward. I had an opportunity with Kraft to live in Europe for a couple of years. I got to travel to really interesting places with both jobs. But I was really busy. I was a wife. As a mom, I had two kids all through this time and I was working. So I never had the time. And things were working well. I enjoyed my career, I kept progressing. I never had the time or luxury or even thought about thinking about what do I want to do? Where am I going? What do I want? And then in 2017 it just stopped working for a whole variety of reasons. And I was really fortunate enough to be able to negotiate an exit package, which was incredibly empowering.
Then in late 2017 I commenced my reboot year is what I call it. I had just turned 50. I started my reboot year. In fact, my husband threw a reboot party for a surprise party for me. It included rubber boots-shaped glasses and shaped cake. Yeah, it was great. And all our friends were there. So I mean, I really felt supported. And so it was my reboot year. And it really was a luxury. It was a luxury but it gave me the opportunity to pause and be really reflective about it. You don't need a whole year to do this. And in fact, I didn't take a whole year. I pretty quickly realized that coaching was probably the direction I wanted to go. But to have that luxury to be able to take a step back and actually be able to be really thoughtful about what you want to do is so important. And I think you can do that throughout your entire career. And we can talk about that a little bit.
But here's what I learned during that reboot. First of all, the power of the pause, as I mentioned, and then really being able to do that internal work, like, assess who are you? I mean, you mentioned in my bio that I look at values. And that's the first exercise I do with anyone I coach is, what are your core values? What are the five things that are absolutely critical to you? And I think it's an exercise that people do fairly easily. You give them a list of values, and they can do it fairly quickly. But people don't generally always think about that. And so identify what those values are, and have them as guideposts for what's working for you and what's not. That's really important. So that insight works.
Andi Simon: They almost become non-negotiables. Is that how you see them?
Laurie Hirsch Schulz: Yes, they are non-negotiables. And what I find with everyone, and myself too, if your work or anything in your life is not aligned with your values, if there's a gap, and we rate them, like on a scale of one to five, one being not so great, I'm not living them today, and five being a yes, I'm living them fully. If you're at a one or two, or even to a certain degree, a three, you're going to be really dissatisfied.
So here's an example. If one of my core values is collaboration, and community, and we'll talk a little bit about how that comes to life for me, but if you are in a job where you're an individual contributor, and it's all just about sitting at your desk and doing that one thing, and your value is having community and connections, you can be dissatisfied with that job. So that's one example. That's one thing I learned is to be really insightful and be thoughtful about what's important to you.
Another is, what's your personal mission or your purpose? Why are you here? I mean, that's bigger work. But that's important, too. What are you here for? So that all is very important, like having that insight work. The other thing that I took from that year and I actually use this in my practice is this idea of design thinking.
But, I want to talk about mindset for a minute. Carol Dweck, are you familiar with her book, Mindset? She talks about a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. And this is also part of the whole idea of design thinking, which is a growth mindset. Be curious, don't just accept things as they are, be thoughtful, look outside in the world and be really curious about what you're seeing. Be willing to experiment and fail. Not everything's gonna turn out.
I can tell you, just entering my third year in business, there's a lot of stuff I've thrown out there that has not been successful. But I've learned from it and I've built from it and I've built success from those things. You need to be willing to reframe your experiences, and be willing to think differently. And actually, this is a little bit about how I became an entrepreneur: I always thought I hate sales. And I actually still hate sales. I hate sales. So if I want to be an entrepreneur, I've got to be able to sell my product, my service, myself. And what I realized is, if you reframe it as relationship building, which is really what I do, I love building relationships, so I say connection and community are core values for me. Then I was like, Oh, well, this works okay for me. I can do this, building relationships, and I like building relationships. And so that's one example of a way to reframe things.
Andi Simon: You know Laurie, the theme that you're describing, you become a case study for how do you reinvent yourself. And what I loved about your story is that you are a case study. Remember, as we mentioned, 40% of the businesses in the US are owned by women. And they represent more than 50% of the workforce. But of the 12 million businesses, 10 million of them are solopreneurs and often we get annoyed at the venture capital folks for only putting 2.8% of their money into women businesses. Some of the businesses aren't suitable for venture capital. They're not really scalable, but they are successful.
Solopreneurs, of course you know, there are a whole lot that aren't earning much from their side hustles, which is fine. But the criticism about not getting the venture capital money is missing the point. There are many folks like yourself who have gone on a journey of discovery, and have found those core values, and are beginning to build a viable business ready to scale. I decided early on, I run a bank. That simple. And the last thing I want was 2500 employees, thank you very much. You know, other freelancers, gig economy, all you like, and I had no desire to have to make money to pay people and support them and worry about them. And you can go have multiple jobs.
But it's an interesting mindset today, particularly with the great resignation. 4 million people left their jobs this past year, that's 3% of the workforce. And a lot of them aren't quite sure where they're going next. I want you to talk though, I like where you went next. After less than a year of your reboot year, you had enough of a discovery to begin to move forward. And the things that you put together are multipliers. They make sense, not simply because they're one offs, you know, a good workshop here or a good talk there. They build a business. And I think there's a lesson to share here that makes a lot of sense. Share it, if you don't mind.
Laurie Hirsch Schulz: So interesting, I really like what you said, and I completely agree with you, this idea of an entrepreneur. I needed to scale and I needed to grow. And I'll come back to that because I think that's really interesting. And I completely agree with you.
So, one of the things I learned about myself through that year, I mean I pretty quickly realized that what I really loved about what I did through my career was that I managed lots of people. I love the mentoring and the coaching that came with that. I also realized that I really loved partnership development. I led a lot of partnership work. So again, coming back to this collaboration, community connections, that was really important to me. And I love the marketing strategy. I really appreciate that marketing strategy.
So that led me, particularly the first year, the mentoring and the partnership led me to a coaching certification program. And out of that, knowing that those were my core values, and another core value of mine is working with others, collaborating with others to help them to find their personal powers. I think I like to say that I want to be a spark that helps ignite others' powers for transformation.
So where that ended up leading me is to my coaching practice. I work with what I call career explorers, people who are really trying to say, this isn't the right fit for me anymore. Where do I want to go next, building on my own experience? But I've also been building my practice around small business owners, and particularly solopreneurs, mostly women, but not all. And I'm really looking at how do you build your business? In a way, this is where I use my marketing strategy work: how do you build your business in a way that's really meaningful for you? I like to say that my clients are mission-focused. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're out there to change the world, but they're really clear on what their why is. Why are they doing this? And how does it work within their own lives.
It's not just about building this business and getting bigger and bigger and bigger for them. It's, and I'm not suggesting that bigger firms are not necessarily mission-focused, but for these solopreneurs, they're really looking at, they're really aware of why they're doing what they're doing. And this goes back to what you were talking about, is that you can have a really successful solopreneur business. I mean, I have people who are in my community who have been in business for 10,15, or 20 years. They are the primary wage earners in their business. They're putting kids through college, and they're still solopreneurs. They may use virtual assistants, or they may have contractors that work with them, but they're more interested in creating a business that can enable them to live the way that they want to live their lives, the way they need to or maybe monetarily the way that they need to. But also that enables them to do the other things that are really important to them.
A big business is not necessarily a reflection of success. Success is really about how it is working for you. Does it align with your values to enable you to live life the way you want it to be? So, that's a lot of what I learned during that reboot year. And and I think the other piece is that I started my coaching practice but I also started a women's networking group called The Broad River. And what the Broad River is, is a hyper-local networking organization for women who live in the Westchester, New York river towns. And it's not specifically for small business owners or women in specific industries.
I had this hypothesis that there's all these really incredibly smart women living in this area by the river towns, and they don't have a way to come together. And that hypothesis was right. It was started in January 2019. And we're going to be going into our third year now. And we have over 400 people on our mailing list. And lots of these women have met each other and actually partnered together to start new things, whether it's in new businesses. I know you really believe in the power of collaboration, and new business opportunities or even new not for profit opportunity opportunities, but just bringing those powers together. So I'll pause there, that's a little bit of my story.
Andi Simon: Well, let's talk about the journey you've been on. It is indicative of the kind of journeys that many of my clients are on who don't necessarily get out of the starting gate on that new venture. I'm always curious though because you have been able to turn an idea, an executive coach, into actually doing coaching, and you hate to sell. But you like relationships, and your core value is to find ways to inspire people to become the best thing they can be, whatever that means. When we look back, though, when people say to me, how do you do this? I'm in business for 20 years now and I say to them, I talk to people. Talk to people, talk to people. And I find that at the end of the day, people don't really know what I do. And they may not know how you do what you do. They really don't know what an anthropologist can offer either themselves or their business, or an executive coach. I'm an executive coach. What does that mean? I'm sure they aren't sure either.
But when you talk to people, and listen, and I do find that the listening part has become really a skill to emphasize because I have the tendency to want to jump in and solve the problem. But it's not my job to do that. My job is to help them see a problem that they want to solve. And it becomes a really interesting listening conversation of showing up and talking to people but really listening to them. And even when I train my executives, I say, how well do you hear what people are saying? Yes, you want to show how smart you are, and you're in charge. Unless your followers follow you, you can't get anything done. And you got to flip it all over. And instead of being in charge, being an enabler, a facilitator, you'll be so much happier if everyone else is doing all the great stuff and you're just steering. So my question for you to share with our audience is, some of those lessons learned that you have found. How do you build relationships?
Laurie Hirsch Schulz: Certainly as the coach, listening is really, really important. I talked about this idea of being curious, that's part of listening to asking more questions. And there's also just being willing to experiment and fail. It's a journey, it's the journey. It's not the end point. Especially solopreneurs. These solopreneurs that I work with, who've been in business for 10 years, they're in very different places than in especially over the last two years with COVID. They're in a very different place than they anticipated that they would be.
There's also this idea of collaboration, and working together. But I think a big piece of it is iteration. And what I mean by that is again, going back to this design thinking idea. I definitely iterate my business all the time, and it's actually a framework since we're dealing with change. So often, it's really nice to have a solid framework that you can just keep going back to over and over again.
Andi Simon: Let’s talk about that. I'm curious. I'm sure listeners are because your affection for it is not uncommon. People really love it when they find it. A little bit about what that framework is because it's extremely powerful.
Laurie Hirsch Schulz: Yes, it is really powerful. So again, this is what I do in my own business and I teach this to my clients. You start with the insight work, which we talked about for you. If it's personal, then what are your personal insights? But it can be for business, competitive insights, talking about who are your prospective clients, and what's your hypothesis? Who do you think that is? Get deep into those insights. Then the next step is actually about really pinpointing what the question is, what are you trying to solve for? So even in my own business I thought I was trying to solve for when I started. I was a 50-year-old person who just left my career and I thought that I wanted to work with every 50-year-old person, late 40s, early 50s, who wants to change their job. And that was kind of the question, how do I help these people? Who were these women who are in this age group? How do I help them to feel empowered to change their job? That was kind of the right question, but not exactly.
What I've learned is, it's not about your age, it's really about your mindset. Who are those people who are ready to make a change, and some of them are in their early careers there. I have clients who are 22 years old, and career explorers, and some of them are 55. I mean, it's about your mindset. So I learned that through insight work. So insights really clarify what you're trying to solve.
And then the third piece of it is, it is starting to ideate, brainstorming. And this is where this idea of radical collaboration comes from. I lead some mastermind groups; you can't just brainstorm on your own work with other people. I mean, I'm sure the executives that you coach don't want to lead by just being out there in front. You lead by bringing together all the really intelligent ideas and the creativity from all the other people that you have around you. So that's the next phase of design thinking.
So iterate, define the question, then brainstorm what the solution may be. And then you do prototyping. And prototyping does not mean that you have to change your whole business. I think that this could be a really interesting workshop. Let me put it out there, let me put it together. Did I know it doesn't have to be 100%, maybe it's 50% and see what the interest is. So you get some feedback and start fixing it a little bit and adjusting it. So you put some prototype ideas out there, even for a business and then the last step after prototyping is that you test it. You actually put it out to the world, you make it a reality, you test it, and then that process just starts all over again. So what did you learn from that test?
You start by doing the insight work so you have that framework. Especially with COVID, where we've all had to change. So solopreneurs were working one on one, in person with people, their businesses depended on being in front of people, and everybody had to change. They had to be willing to be creative and try new things and really try to figure out what am I really trying to solve for here? And then experimenting into it? It is so iterating. I think you can use that in anything: products, services, your home life. Even your own life.
Andi Simon: Yeah, it's a way of seeing. The reason I say see, feel and think is that we decide with the eyes and how it feels. With the heart and the eyes in the process is a very feeling process. I mean, there's nothing data metric driven there until you begin to see beyond what's possible into something really new. And I do love when you work people through it. The aha moments, the serendipity aha moments, teaching them that their brain has a bunch of stuff going on there. And if only someone says this, and someone says that, next thing you know, a bigger idea. The more ideas you have, the more likely you'll have big ones. And they come at the intersections.
And as you were talking, I was thinking about this idea and that idea. And it's not the 50-somethings. I have a bunch of 29-year-olds who have spent since they graduated college, they've spent it in their jobs, thinking it was a growth industry, and they stopped growing. And they don't even know what they want to do next. But they know they don't want to do this anymore. And I've got this 65-year-old who wants to retire and do something more meaningful. It's not at a point in time.
The most interesting part is that we seem to get through the college part or the graduate school, with everyone else giving you the next step. And then there's no next step. It's up to you to really create the next step. The most interesting group of people, those who retire, and they're perfectly fine playing golf every day for about six months. And then I've had wives who fired them. She said, if you sit here one more day asking me what's for breakfast, lunch and dinner, I'm going to fire you. They have no place to go and no plan for what to do with it. And that's a whole other coaching client. So we're going to wrap up here, because I'm looking at our time and it's about ready for us to say goodbye. Two or three things you don't want our audience to forget. If you're thinking about it, or if you're in the middle of it, or you never stopped with it, some things you'd like them to remember.
Laurie Hirsch Schulz: So I think the first one is, don't go it alone. Find your tribe, your advisory council, use a coach, whatever it may be. Don't go it alone because I think you need people who are going to challenge you and brainstorm with you. So that would be the first one. I think they'll challenge you to get outside of your comfort zone. They should find people who will do that but will also collaborate with you on trying to find the best solution. So that's number one, don't go it alone.
The next one is we've talked about mindset. Be open to new ideas. There's this idea of the concept of failure, immunity. There's nothing wrong with failure, it's what you do with it. So watch your mindset and don't get stuck when things don't go exactly the way you want them to.
And then the last one is to take time to take a pause. Even if it's a four-day weekend away, go rent an Airbnb somewhere and spend a couple days just really focusing on yourself. There's so many books out there, yours included, just take some time, be willing. And then when you take that pause, be willing to be vulnerable, and be willing to be authentic. You don't have to prove anything to anyone. And I think that this pandemic has really proven that it's like, you don't have to prove, just take a pause, be authentic, and figure out what's really true, true with a capital T, what's true for you. So those would be the three things.
Andi Simon: You're right. I hope people also hear it's okay, whatever it is, it's okay. You’ve got your health. Take a quiet walk, your mind is filled with great possibilities. Trust it and trust others as you're listening to them, because it's a time where nobody is really certain what's coming next, which is either exciting, or for some people terrifying, but you don't want to be stuck and stalled. And that's often a mindset. This is the way it was, I wonder if it will come back? Well, it may never come back. And I have a client who is wondering when it's going to come back. And it's not whether it's the supply chain, or the lack of staff, or an entrepreneur who's trying to be better than a small business and be creative or a small business who wants to be more entrepreneurial. I mean, just think through all the possibilities that await us. And I do think that technology enables us in very interesting ways to test stuff, right? It's pretty cool stuff. So, to reach you, Laurie, what's the best way to find you?
Laurie Hirsch Schulz: Well, you can check out my website, which is lhscoaching.com or you can email me Laurie@lhscoaching.com. And, you know, I'd love to talk to people about my mastermind groups for small business owners. I do one-on-one coaching. Like I mentioned, I work with career explorers.
Andi Simon: We will have all of that on the blog that we post this on. I can only tell you the listeners come from across the globe. Listening Notes called us among the top 5% podcasts globally. I know I have people across the globe who send us emails, and I enjoy listening to what you would like to hear more about. So don't wait, come on, send it along. And we'll try to find people who can help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can too. But the real trick is to help you begin to reflect on what matters too.
Laurie was talking about her core, the core values, what really matters to you. Until you begin to rethink who you are and what you want to do, nobody can really help guide your way. We can guide but only up to a point. My two books try to help you as well. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is designed to help you, women and men. I can't tell you how many men have reviewed it and said I finally have a book to give to my daughter, my wife, and my friend because it's all about how you can break through and become the woman that you'd like to be.
And my first book,On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, is all about companies that were stalled or stuck that we helped. And my job is to help you get off the brink. And that's why today is so much fun. So thank you for coming. Please stay healthy and well and enjoy the journey because we are on a journey. However you're going, wherever you're going, let us be of help. And we're here to help you see, feel and think in new ways. So thanks for coming today. I'm going to say goodbye. Thank you.
Learn how to grow your business through your employees
What is a great performance coach? Meet Kathy D’Agostino. Kathy and I met through the Business Council of Westchester where I was giving a talk about my book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. Like so many women, Kathy had a great corporate job until it wasn’t such a great corporate job. Her passion was in coaching people. As she earned her professional certifications, Kathy realized that she had, indeed, found her calling. Her particular focus is helping leaders improve their employees' performance. Listen in, learn and share. Enjoy!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
A leader without great followers can't do a very good job leading an organization and sustaining its growth during these fast-changing times.
But how do you grow your employees and make sure their skills are aligned with what is needed when this volatile business environment keeps shifting? Kathy has some great solutions. She talks with me about her approach, why it is designed around getting people to change, and how she can help her clients measure progress against their performance goals. You will enjoy her style and her insights. And hopefully take away some valuable learning for your company.
About Kathy D'Agostino
Kathy is an executive coach and business consultant who for over 25 years has helped leaders grow their businesses and invest in their greatest asset: their employees. She has worked with hundreds of organizations to develop their leadership teams, accentuate their core values, and create a strong culture.
Prior to establishing her company, Win at Business Coaching, Kathy held senior-level positions for global organizations where she turned around underperforming sales teams, drove revenue growth in a declining market, and built game-changing customer service programs. You can connect with Kathy on LinkedIn, Twitter and her website Win At Business Coaching, and you can email her at kathy@winatbusinesscoaching.com.
Need to grow but not sure how? Here are some great places to start
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Blog: Entrepreneurs, Be Smart and Pick the Right People to Help You Grow
- Podcast: Kim Bohr—Assessing Your Company’s Organization To Sustain Growth In Changing Times
- Podcast: Jacqueline Kibler—Want To Grow? Take A Good Hard Look At Your Culture
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink, a fresh lens to take you and your business to new heights. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. It's not good to be stuck there. Stalling is not happy, whether it's personal or professional, your corporation, your company or small business or yourself. So my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can do things differently. And that's what I'm all about.
You know, I'm a corporate anthropologist and I love to help people change, but it's painful. So I go looking for people who can help you do just that. Today, I have with me Kathy D'Agostino, who is a terrific woman. She's going to help you see, feel and think in new ways because that's exactly what she has done with her career and her business.
Let me tell you a little bit about Kathy and then she'll tell you more about herself. She's an executive coach and business consultant. She has 25+ years of experience helping leaders grow both their business and invest in their greatest asset: their employees. Today, this is a big topic because the employees are hard to attract. You know the big gaps and they're hard to retain. And they're all finding new ways to do things.
She's worked with hundreds of organizations to develop their leadership teams, accentuate core values and create a strong culture. Her client base is diverse: global, pharma companies, professional service firms, education, nonprofits. In business coaching, Kathy has held senior level positions for global organizations, where she was responsible for turning around underperforming sales teams, driving revenue growth in declining markets, and building game-changing customer service programs.
So I have somebody who had corporate experience who is now an independent coach with a great business. Kathy, thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure to get to know you, but tell the listener or the audience or the viewer, wherever you're watching or listening to us, who is Kathy, what was your journey like? And then we'll go into this big problem for today, the great resignation and what do I do? So who's Kathy?
Kathy D’Agostino: So Andrea, you're quite interesting, the great resignation, because I actually was a little ahead of the curve. I guess I was a trailblazer as many of us were, but it wasn't quite as visible in public. About seven years ago, I quit my corporate job after 25 years, as you read in the bio. And I really decided that I'd been thinking about it for a while and probably waited a little too long. So I made a pretty snap decision. What I did was, one January after having some time off and reflecting, I called the gentleman that I work with. I told him I have a problem with my boss. I just liked to say I worked for him, not with him, probably why I'm not in corporate anymore, right?
So I called him and I said, look, it's January, I have this opportunity of a lifetime to take two weeks' vacation. And he said to me, you're crazy, it's only January. He said, you're going to use all of your vacation, because I just started about a year ago. And he said, that doesn't make business sense and we have a big project coming up. I'm like, I totally understand. He said it was going to cause a lot of problems for his boss. And I'm like, I would never want to do that for you. So I said, you know, it doesn't even make common sense. I totally agree with you. I understand that because to me it makes sense.
So I said, here's what I can do. I can send you an email with a resignation or I could send you my vacation request for two weeks. I said, you know it's up to him. He goes, how long do I have to decide? I'm like, oh, I don't leave for three weeks, just let me know before that. I'm glad to send either email. I wish I had a recording of his voice. And about a day later, he called back and said, I'll take the email for the vacation request. I'm like, gosh, and he said, you'll come back relaxed and rested because we have a big project on the schedule. I'm like, absolutely. So I took that vacation, came back, finished the project two months later, and in the beginning of April I resigned. So I used that time for reflection. We will talk about that more and what people can do at the end. Then I got home in April and I said, Oh, my God, what am I gonna do? All the freedom and flexibility I was looking for I had, and I'm like, now what do I do? I'm so used to having this reporting structure and people you know, and now you're free.
Andi Simon: But, you know, this is not an inconsequential life journey for us. Because I remember, I decided to leave corporate after 20 years helping organizations as an executive change. And I really didn't have anything propelling me except 9/11 and I had that Aha moment which said, If I'm going to go into my own business, it's not a bad time to do that. I had to go find a PR guy who I had worked with a great deal. And so who am I? And it was fun to listen to him say, You're a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. I said, bingo, in a capsule. Does anyone know way back 20 years ago if anyone was looking for a corporate anthropologist? It didn't matter. So I knew I could help companies change. But how? So how did you end up becoming this kind of coach that you are today? What kind of coach are you? What did you finally decide?
Kathy D’Agostino: I decided to do executive coaching. And I had a transitional period where, you know, I kind of had my niche and didn't find it. But when I really thought back after about two years of really looking through and working with small business owners, and whenever I really said what made me leave, what was the impact that I needed to make? And it was really on culture, because the companies that I quit were bad bosses, or because companies didn't live their values. And for me, it's all about integrity. So to me, I really thought about what was it that made the biggest impact, and it was really creating better workplaces for employees so that they stay. I thought, you know, retention has always been a challenge for really good employees. And I just really felt that it was all about that culture. Because if I would take less money to work in a company where the culture felt right to me, we can make a lot of money. And I felt like I'm selling my soul.
Andi Simon: So when you were in corporate, the kinds of work that you were doing had to do with building better cultures? Correct? And it was a way of learning on the job. You're not an academic, but you certainly had huge credentials while you were developing these perspectives and skills. Am I correct?
Kathy D’Agostino: Oh, absolutely. I know what you mean by now. So when I really looked even deeper, what really drove me to be passionate about these great companies and these better cultures was when I was managing sales teams, and I could develop those people. So while I realized maybe the company culture wasn't exactly in alignment with what I was, I could align my team with what those values were. And that experience alone was really, really valuable. Now I had a manager at that time, because I had to come in and fire a number of people when I took over this role. She said, Oh, you'll be jaded by this forever. And I think I'd like to reframe her and say, No, I was driven by that, where I had to change that team, because they had a manager there for 25 years that liked to coast a little bit, you know, and I came in, and I'm like, Oh, this isn't the way we work. So I wanted to create my own culture within this team, even though I had the external culture, my higher ups, and I had the ability to do that. And that's really what made me think about what was so important.
Andi Simon: What I love about that story is, it's going to jade you or it's going to drive you is an interesting perspective. You know, on one hand, you were anticipating being frustrated by this. We do the same thing in this vacuum, where I have people who are underperforming. They're sort of just now attending, and that can demonstrate that they can rise. This is so exciting. So as you've launched your business now moving out of the small business world into culture, tell us about what you do and how you do it, and for whom.
Kathy D’Agostino: So you know, again, as the bio said, it is diverse, but lately it's been like you mentioned. The 9/11 pivotal moment in the world has been the pandemic. So looking once again at these pivotal moments, the organizations in the last year and a half have changed that I'm working with. I mean, some stayed, but one of the things that's really been important is the government. I work with a number of local government agencies and because they have constraints of unions and civil service to promote their people, they have some unique challenges.
So working with some of them, they have huge departments around 1100 people. So when you see that group of people and even the executive team, some are in the union, and some are non-union. So there's all these things you have to manage in addition to culture, and making change. And those organizations have been really impactful. And luckily they got some pandemic money. So that's actually allowed them to bring me back because I worked with them a little bit before, and now even more so.
Nonprofits are definitely another one that you know, they're struggling. There's so many people asking for money. So nonprofits, I work with a number of them and I'm on a board for one so I am really passionate about the work that they do. And then interestingly enough, several of my executive clients that I work with through corporate, called me during the pandemic and said, You know what, I don't want to make that three hour drive, I don't want to be on the train anymore. I had time to rethink my life. I like working from home. I need to rethink my career and not just thinking about just staying because tomorrow is going to get better. I need to think about what I really want.
So the blend of those two, which is interesting, because I have the corporate side or the organization side, but then I had the employee perspective. So just a case in point, I have an employee, a woman that I'm speaking with this morning, right after this, and she's been with a company only a year and a half. She is a top graduate from one of the top business schools. She's in a top company, and she's unhappy. She's there 16 months, and she has an early promotion and she's like, I'm bored. I think I should leave. So it's executives that have been in their mid-career and then this young one, in like 16 months says, I'm going to get this promotion and I don't know if it means enough to me to stay.
Andi Simon: Okay, don't lose that because this is an excellent case study. I have a bunch of 29-year-olds who came out of universities, colleges with good degrees and have been working in the same place for a period of time. It isn't even a promotion or not a promotion, it is that I'm unhappy. But I don't even know what will make me happy. And that's the coaching challenge, because I can't make them happy. And for yours, it's a real interesting aha moment, because she came in with lots of hoopla, I'm sure. And they were excited to bring her in. And now the question is for the company, and for the individual, what are we missing here? A woman too, which I think is a really important thing. Because they need purpose. They don't need just a position or a salary. That's just what she's saying. What's my purpose? What do you see?
Kathy D’Agostino: Very much so. What's interesting too, is because she's been a high achiever all her life, she's been getting kudos and kudos. Now, she's gotten into this organization where there's a lot of other people that are very similar to her. So they're bright, they're faster, quick, and she's going like, But I should be put first. And so I think what I'm seeing, this is a little off topic, but I think a little emotional intelligence. She's got the IQ off the chart on the IQ. She's got the, you know, work ethic. But I think a little bit more, she has the attitude, I know you recognize this, what's in it for me, and she wants to go to the corporation and tell them, this job, what's in it for me? And I think I want to see if she's willing to say, can I bring my talents and how can I best serve you. A little bit of a different statement, then I think she got bored. How about, let's say, what are you working on that I could help you with? So I think a little emotional intelligence there. I'm seeing a little that, you know, maybe insightfulness and self-awareness and empathy.
Andi Simon: But I do think that executive coaches coaching clients...I have almost all women, they're so different from the men, because the men are talking about careers as a ladder to climb. And the women...I have one woman who's wonderful, she's an MBA, a CPA, she's a partner in an accounting firm, and she never wants to do another tax return.
Another who is a very successful wealth manager. And is saying it's not necessary, but not sufficient. And they see their lives broader. And it isn't just being on a not-for-profit board or helping children, which is often a way of complimenting the business. And this is a sense of who I am. What's my purpose? And it's a bigger question about where do I get my self-fulfilling happiness from? They're asking it in a way which makes the coaching situation very rich, because they are the only ones who can discover that. And it's all that story in their head about who they are and what they are aspiring to. But this kind of yours is another illustration of how do I change the story? From, I'm the hero to, I would like to be part of the team, how do I play better? She’s the heroine isn't she?
Kathy D’Agostino: She is and you know, she wants to let everybody know that. Maybe with age and wisdom, she'll get that output of wisdom. You know that we don't have to be the smartest person in the room. And if we are, then maybe we're in the wrong room, right? So how can we put ourselves in places where we're challenged and where it gives us opportunities to say, Hey, I'm here to be a part of the team. I want my purpose and mission fulfilled. And I think that when they can really align with a company, and Andi I really challenged her to look at what's the purpose and the vision of the company. And does it align with her own? Then you know what? It's not what's in it for me, it's fear of missing out. I'm going to be part of a big organization’s wonderful change, not be the change.
Andi Simon: Kathy, as you think about this in the context of the great resignation, the illustrations I love, because I'm a storyteller like you are, and they make the abstraction come alive. But there's no shortage of research about how people are thinking about what they're doing and this great resignation at a time when it seems so hard to find people to work in the jobs. Do you have any insights you can bring to our listeners about what to think about if you're thinking about resigning, or what you see happening?
Kathy D'Agostino: So two ways, I'm going to look at that for you. One, I can tell you what I'm hearing from the employees directly, and what the research will tell us. So the research tells us that people really want growth opportunities. Like this girl, they really want to train, they want to develop, and they want to grow. And when companies don't offer them that opportunity, they will quit often. Bad bosses are the ones that often don't see the potential in them, and don't give them the opportunity. So I think that is really key to actually what we do. Like coaching and training.
I run a lot of training classes on leadership. When companies invest in that, they have an 87% higher retention rate. That is huge considering in October, 2021, 4.3 million people walked out of their jobs. Some of them went to other jobs, and some of them just resigned to do something else, which I'll answer in a second for you. But that's almost 3% of the workforce. When you have that, you really have to say, what's it going to take to keep people and what do people really want? And that's the one thing I hear. Do they want a raise? Absolutely, people would always work for more money, you feel more excited, we all feel more excited, we get a client that really rewards us for the work that we do. So they want this flexible work-balanced life. I don't call it a balance, I call it an integration where we can actually feel like our job and our home life have a certain way of intersecting, we're not living in two different worlds.
I think the key to that has been why people have been walking out the door because they can't get the integration right. The company says 24/7 you are on call, and they're saying, but I work from home, I could do this other schedule and be really productive, see my kids a little more. So that's the one thing I think companies can do. And people can think about it in their own minds. Those are the things that other employees are saying. It took me a couple years of thinking about the problem. And you know what, Andrea, then I switch to thinking about the solutions, when I change my mind on coaching, right? When we change our thoughts, and the neuroplasticity, and all those other things, we can rewire our brain to think, what are the solutions? And as coaches, that's what we do. Okay, here's the problem, we can talk about that for five hours. Okay, we know it exists. Let's talk about the solution.
So when people start thinking about what are the solutions. Okay, quitting is one of them. Maybe you're talking about getting another promotion before I leave, making a plan, really concrete specific things. One of the things that happened for me, and very fortunately, I was out for a walk, and this person joined me and I said, you know, I'm really thinking about leaving. Matter of fact, someday is not a day on the calendar anymore. So, someday is today. What do you think? She looked at me and she said, you've worked with so many different types of businesses and from like, national movie studios to the mom and pops. And she said, I'm a business executive coach, what else would you do? And I'm like, of course, what else would I do? Having that business acumen and then understanding and then knowing how the employees feel having a team? She said was there anything else you were thinking about? No, absolutely not better than that for me.
So I think that's when people talk to other people. Talk to people who've done it. Talk to people who decided to stay. We have something like 50% of the people in the last 20 months saying that they are going to quit their jobs or are thinking about quitting their jobs. They're not ready to do it yet, but thinking about it. So if they're thinking about it, that means they're spending half their time with their foot out the door, and only half of their time engaged. We know employees who are engaged in companies are actually 2.5% more profitable. I've heard it is as high as 19% more profitable. So if you have somebody only giving 50% and they could give 100%, what does it say to us? We have to eventually set some timeline. What's the difference between a dream and a goal? Having a timeline, right, set some timelines, milestones, talk to people. And I think really think through what's in your heart. And how can you start looking for solutions? What are your solutions? I didn't know I could make a living outside of that.
But Andi, a quick story short. I think I've always been an entrepreneur. When I was 10, my sister and I took babysitting jobs. She took one side of the street, I took the other side, nobody got in there because we babysat for each other. When I look back, I always had this entrepreneurial spirit, so entrepreneurial. And so when I got into my own, I think when I was coaching the sales teams, I could do that again. And so to me, it's kind of like, here's where the story goes.
Andi Simon: But it's great and what you do for people is help them literally see, feel and think in new ways. That's just what the catalytic moments are today. I have two thoughts, and we'll do a wrap up. My first thought is that the companies are missing the point. And I do think that the point is that work has changed, the meaning of work has changed. The pandemic has made us very aware that this work-life balance is not true. It isn't work a life and life work. I mean, this is to your point, I like that feeling of blending, you know, we do need to make a living. But do we have to do it at the exclusion of life?
I was giving a talk for Republic National Distribution, large distributors of liquor. And I interviewed many of their folks who spent their lives on airplanes, like I had. And they said, this has been a mindblower for me because I used to get on a plane on Monday, come back on Thursday, work in the company on Friday, maybe spend half a day on Saturday on work, maybe a day with my kids. Now I've learned that there's life. And my business is up 234%. So what does that tell me?
So if you can measure, you know what you can, when you can live, you can begin to see that what I was doing wasn't necessarily the path to growth, it was just a job the way it was defined. So companies need to rethink what is work, and what it is I want and begin to treat your employees as part of the discussion, not as an afterthought. They are not to be done to, they have to be done with. As you said, you didn't really work for him, you work with him. And in some ways, you could go back to him and say, I want you to hire me as a consultant, because I can do it for you. But I can do it faster and easier as an independent and within the confines. Of course that threatens their own job. And it's another conference.
For the folks who are thinking of resigning, and particularly women and a lot of women of color, the number of those folks who started their own business, either as a side hustle or as a full time career job, are just enormous. But the number who close and fail every day is disturbing. So if you're going to do this, spend a little time ahead of time thinking through what this is so that you don't find yourself out the door with nothing but hope. And hope is not a good strategy. As I say so often, for whether it's a company or a purpose, you need more than just a someday. You know, a dream, you need a plan and and you need to talk about growing as you go forward. It's not a place that is a destination, it's a journey. So with that in mind, two or three things you want our listeners to remember, because this has been the kind of conversation I just love for them to hear. It's all about how do I change. And if you're ready to think about it, we're ready to help you. Tell us a couple of things not to forget.
Kathy D’Agostino: So I think it's really important to know if you're in a job right now, explore the options within the organization. And if you've really made that decision, then it's time to go. Hit the pause button and do some planning. Talk to people that have left, as I mentioned before. Talk to people who you trust as mentors. Have you had a past mentor? Can they tell you what I do really well? What's my superpower? You should really ask that question.Tony Robbins would say, tell me two things that you think I do really well in this world or in this community or in life. Then tell me the one thing you think I could really improve upon. And that really does give a lot of insights into it.
I think, take your time, make it a smart decision based on economics. When I did it at a point, money wasn't a big issue, because I had worked a long time in my career. So, you know, if money is a factor, you don't plan on it, you could fail, or it could take you a while. It took me a lot longer, easily 24 months before I realized that profit because there's so much expense. So really consult your accountant. Put a plan, put milestones, put things in place. Talk to people and ask them questions. And I wouldn't say follow your heart. What's true to you? What are your values, really identify your values, and identify what are your must-haves people want to focus on. I don't want this in the organization, I don't want that, and focus on the solutions. What's my must-haves, and then go after those. And believe it or not, that vision, every day, that vision will drive you to the right place.
Andi Simon: That's not to be inconsequential, here. That's important. You have a story in your head today. In that story, you know, the things that are irritating, but what won't irritate you is missing. And I find when I work with people too, or their organizations to change, defining what will make them happy is more difficult than being angry at what's making them unhappy. And that is not inconsequential. For all of you listening or watching, if you're going to think about this as a better way for you, you better be clear that if it's fuzzy, that's okay. But if it doesn't exist at all, you're in trouble. Because then you're going to stop work. And you're gonna say, now what do I do? You don't even know one of those two things I'm really good at. And one thing I wish I did better. Great conversation today. Kathy, thank you so much. One last thing, where can they reach you? Is LinkedIn the best place or someplace else?
Kathy D’Agostino: LinkedIn is absolutely my favorite place to connect with people. At the end of the blog, Andrea, you include all my information, so my emails and all that is there as well. I'd love to hear from you. If I can help any time, I’m always glad to have that conversation.
Andi Simon: Kathy has a lovely website as well. And we'll put all that information together for you. So let's wrap up. It's been a great time to talk about how you get off the brink. Thanks for joining us today. And remember, I have two books out there for you to do just that. On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take your Business to New Heights is all about companies that have been stuck or stalled which we helped see, feel and think in new ways. Yours could be one of those for the next book.
And then Rethink that just came out this year. Rethink is smashing the myths of women in business stories about 11 women, including my own, who, unlike the women that Kathy and I are struggling with, knew what they wanted to be. And they didn't let anything stop them. And so it doesn't matter whether you're an attorney who was told not to be one or an entrepreneur, or a geoscientist, you're going to read about women who were able to smash through the myths that were holding them back and become the best they could be. Compared to my male clients, these women never thought about position or power. They thought about becoming a purpose. And even if they became really successful in whatever career they were, it was always about becoming what was interesting to them. And it didn't matter whether it was Earth studies or the law or building a business, it was a conversation about purpose. And I do think that's where we're at today. So thank you all for coming. Send me your ideas. I'd love to hear about them. I'd love to hear who you'd like to hear from. And I thank Kathy for being with us today. Thank you Kathy D'Agostino.
Hear how to rethink your life's journey and find your purpose
Meg Nocero has several books that reflect her own journey from grief to a meaningful life. Her latest book, Butterfly Awakens: A Memoir of Transformation Through Grief, takes you through her story which could easily be your own. How many of you are doing a job you thought was your purpose in life, only to realize that you are bored, frustrated, unfulfilled, and searching for something more meaningful? What do you do, deal with it or reach for another pathway? In our conversation today, Meg shares her own discovery about how she could do something that mattered more to her. She needed a crisis in her life, the loss of her mother, to be that catalytic moment propelling her forward. Maybe you are going through something similar? Have a listen.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Are you living a life you really love? If not, there's a way to change it.
You might not want to travel the same pathway that Meg Nocero has done. But you will learn a great deal about how to take better care of yourself. And, you will begin to rethink your own life’s journey to make sure it is the one you really want.
As you are thinking about where you are today and where you really want to be, you might want to check out a webinar about our program, Rethink your Journey with Andi Simon and see if our online self-directed program or our in-person coaching might be right for you. It could just change your life!
About Meg Nocero
Meg is a former federal immigration prosecutor, TEDx and inspirational speaker, leadership coach and the award-winning author of The Magical Guide to Bliss: Daily Keys to Unlock Your Dreams, Spirit & Inner Bliss, Sparkle & Shine: 108 M.A.N.T.R.A.s to Brighten Your Day and Lighten Your Way, and Butterfly Awakens: A Memoir of Transformation Through Grief. After appearing with Oprah Winfrey in 2014, she was inspired to manifest the life of her dreams and founded Butterflies & Bliss LLC and S.H.I.N.E. Networking Inc., a nonprofit that provides educational scholarships to young innovative leaders in her community.
Meg has appeared on CNN Español, BookCon live, and numerous podcasts and online media outlets. She hosts a YouTube channel and a podcast called Manifesting with Meg: Conversations with Extraordinary People. You can connect with Meg on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and her website. You can also email her at egnocero@mac.com.
Ready to find a life that's more fulfilling? Here's a place to start
- Blog: Is It Time To Rethink Where You Are And Where You Are Going?
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business
- My award-winning first book: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. And as you know, I'm your host and your guide. My job is to get you off the brink by bringing to you some interesting people who can help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can begin to change what you're doing and become the best that you can be.
So I have Meg Nocero with me today. You're going to enjoy this conversation as you do all of ours. There's something in her journey that you're going to relate to. Well, as we know, the journey is our life. But it's never a straight line. It's a path or a maze full of hurdles and obstacles. You know, I clearly found that in my book Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. But even in my first book On the Brink, every one of the stories I share is about people who get stuck or stalled and have to pause, step back a little. They need to think like an anthropologist, which I am, and begin to think about how to do this differently.
So let me tell you about Meg’s new book, Butterfly Awakening. It's a story that you're going to enjoy reading. But let me tell you about her so you know why I'm so excited. Meg Nocaro is a former federal immigration prosecutor. And you can read a lot more about that in Butterfly Awakening, with all of its twists and turns. First, her desire to get there and then, oh my gosh, what am I doing here? It's a really interesting story.
She's a TEDx speaker, an inspirational speaker, a leadership coach, and the award winning author of The Magical Guide to Bliss: Daily Keys to Unlock your Dreams, Spirit and Inner Bliss. A great book you might want to buy and read. And Sparkle and Shine: 108 Mantras to Brighten Your Day Lighten your Way. And her new book, Butterfly Awakens: A Memoir of Transformation Through Grief. And that's the one that we'll talk about today. But the others are equally important.
After she was brought on stage in Miami with Oprah Winfrey in 2014, she was inspired to manifest a life of her dreams and founded Butterflies and Bliss, and Shine, a networking group, a nonprofit that provides educational scholarships to young innovative leaders in her community. Meg has appeared on CNN Espanol. And her podcasts are on online media, such as MSNBC, CBS Boston Herald, Chicago Tribune. She hosts a YouTube channel and a podcast called Manifesting with Meg: Conversations With Extraordinary People. I bet you now know why this is going to be such a wonderful conversation. Thank you for joining.
Meg Nocero: I'm so grateful for the opportunity, Andi. You're such a powerhouse and what you're doing for women in this world I think is just amazing, inspiring and empowering as well. So I appreciate the opportunity to speak to your audience.
Andi Simon: But I'm delighted that we finally met and have a chance to share. My first question always is, who is Meg and what's your journey been? And I know I read about it in Butterfly Awakening, but there are enough lessons learned through a life's journey to share with our listeners so they too can begin to see their lives as evolving like a butterfly. Share with the listeners or the audience, please. That would be terrific.
Meg Nocero: You know, it's interesting because I think we're all becoming who we want to be. And we always are going back in time to the beginning of when we came into this world and all the big dreams we had as little children and what we wanted to see unfold and the beauty of our lives. But, we really just wanted to experience it. That curiosity that peeking of that curiosity was foremost and paramount in our lives and we didn't know any better. So that is basically where we start.
And you know, one of the things that I really cherish about my life experience, my journey, my adventure, is that I'm adventurous. I love to go out and be curious and meet the people who crossed my path and get to know them and truly experience that profound relationship on a different level.
Now back to who I've become. I would have to say I have been impacted by so many that I take all the beauty that I learn from others, that wisdom, and I'm able to take it along with me on my journey of life, which I think is just the biggest gift we can give to each other. I think that is beyond amazing. So you know, as far as my educational journey, I speak four languages. I went to college to learn more Romance languages. I speak Spanish and Italian, then French and sometimes English. And then I decided I was going to go into the Foreign Service. So I went into the School of International Studies in Miami and ended up in Miami. That's how I started down here, that's how I got down here and I have not looked back.
I love Miami, it's a vibrant city of many incredible cultures coming together, where, you know, sometimes it's not so great, but I always like to look at the beauty of the passion of it and I love Miami. I've loved it since the day I moved down here and then I decided to go to law school after getting my master's. So the educational component was setting those foundational tools that we get to show up as.
And then after that I went back to my creative side after 20 years of a prosecuting attorney with DHS. I was like, I want to start playing in the creative realm a lot more. And I think that we don't have to do one or the other. Certainly one of my favorite things is bringing them both together. That balance of the left and the right brain. And, that's really where I'm trying to play right now, using all of those, the logical skills, the articulation, the actual listening skills, and then taking that together with the whole creative side that I get to write. I get to experience these conversations and inspire other people through a more playful, creative side. So that's where I am today. Who knows what's gonna happen tomorrow, but like we said at the outset in the greenroom, take a deep breath and be present in the moment and just try to enjoy where you are and bask in whatever accomplishments or lessons you've learned. So you can turn around and enjoy what's right in front of you.
Andi Simon: So with all of this balancing, you're an attorney on one side and an author on the other. The books that you wrote, your early books were lessons learned, but also listing bliss, ways of doing things that were emotional. Remember, people buy and decide with their emotions. So talk about the first books, what were they about? And how did they come about?
Meg Nocero: Well, I will say that the writing journey started as I looked for a healing tool to get me through a grieving process when I lost my mother in 2011. So I always love to journal and I always found a lot of solace going into my journal, like hoping no one ever read those thoughts ever, but being able to just divulge on the page, those feelings, emotions, etc. When I lost my mother, it was really a true cutting off of a conversation that I was having with her on a daily basis where I started my day with the inspiration of her. And then made it through by virtue of just getting that endorphin hit in the morning because I loved her. It was a source of unconditional love and conversation with my mother. She was brilliant. Talk about a real professional powerhouse, she had three masters. She was always in the whole discernment process, always wanting to learn more, always wanting to educate herself greater and read constantly. So the conversations we had, I felt like I was with a college professor every day.
I mean, I remember those college days, and I miss them so much, just sitting outside of your dorm room having those incredible, mind blowing conversations. We look back now, you're probably like we were, just such babies then, but really just those conversations where you just need to expand your perspective and by learning through the eyes of great professors, great literature, your colleagues, your friends, your people who are playing in that realm with you. So for me, it was like this ongoing conversation with my mother. So when she died, it was really painful because I was yearning for that. And one of my incredible friends, who's also a therapist, said to me, “Just because they're not present here, doesn't mean that you can't have a connection with that person.” She said, “Figure out a way that you can meet her.”
And I found her on the written page. And what I would do is in kind of a meditative experience, I would ask her what do I need to hear today. I would pull a book that may speak to me, and then I just channeled whatever she would tell me for the wisdom of the day. And it ended up as 366 insights in my Magical Guide to Bliss.
So basically, what I came up with was a guide to pull me through the grieving process. In turn, it really set me on a path, a life path that I really was excited about again. I found myself at the time she told me before she passed away, stress will kill you, and have no regrets. And I was like, Oh my God, if this were my final week of life, I would not be happy. I was like, there's no way this has to be the end of my dash, like this experience where I'm sitting. We all have that experience where we recreate, perhaps you know, the direction we want to see our lives walk in. And like I said at the beginning, going back to what made us come to life as children, maybe taking some of those seeds that were already in us, and start watering them a little bit more.
So writing for me was that watering process. And then I started sharing my insights with other people in email fashion. And then the coolest thing was that after I was on stage with Oprah Winfrey in 2014, where she said, “Live the life you want,” and I was like, I better start figuring out what that is. And I decided, I'm gonna publish my first book, which is a Magical Guide to Bliss.
And I went ahead. Attorneys don't necessarily have the information you need to publish a book, so I had to learn all of that. I had to learn that, I didn't see it. And I was excited, I wasn't tired, right? And that's how you know you're going in the right path. The right direction is when you get excited by something. And yes, it's gonna take a lot of work, but it's not draining me. It's not sucking the life force out of me. So I started looking in those avenues.
And then also Andrea, people started showing up with the information too which is another God wink that you're going in the right direction. So that was my first book. And then actually after I published it, I started following it. I actually read every day from January Carpe Diem to the end of December on spy magic and miracles and I followed my own guide. And this is where I am, which is kind of amazing. So I'm very grateful.
I wrote my own guide, and then I shared it with whoever it may resonate with. If you're looking for inspiration, I always say the synchronicity, the college synchronicity, when you open up to a certain page, set your intention and ask what do I need to hear today, and there's something wonderful that might just pop up and just give you what you need to hear to move forward.
Andi Simon: Meg, there are two sides to you that I want to make sure you share with the listeners. The first is that you have a family?
Meg Nocero: Yes, I do.
Andi Simon: And the second is the, I'll call it an aha moment when you had enough with your professional career as an attorney. Because I think that for many of our audience or listeners, those are relevant for them as well. And we talked about work-life balance, but I think it's a blend. I think that what we are are all those things: we're mothers, and we're lovers, and we have our creators and if we spend time on all of them, it's rich. But how do you do that? And then your career was exactly what you wanted, and nothing you wanted? I mean, it sort of went through its own journey. Can you talk a little bit about both of those?
Meg Nocero: Wow, you know, the career right. The identity becomes people's identity, their purpose and what they associate their life force with after a while. So after 20 years as a practicing attorney, and then stepping away from that, I was kind of lost again. I was like, Who am I? Who do I want to be? A lot of people will look back on their lives and say, when they retire, some people just kind of give up because they're like, What am I going to do? What am I going to be a service to?
I think that for me is really important because when I grew up, that was a component that was really reinforced in all three of us, my sisters and I, that we are of service using the talents that we've been given in this world. I had a program when I was at the Department of Homeland Security, I was the lead intern coordinator. So I would recruit students, and I had done it for nearly 17 years. So I was interviewing people who were interested in working with us, or with the DHS, and looking at the different personalities and having different kinds of interview styles to try to figure out the people that are most likely to be successful in this capacity kind of vetting out....you know, those who are just there to put it on the résumé and not really show up and do the work and then people who are really eager to learn and take advantage of the opportunity.
So it was volunteer, we didn't pay, unfortunately, and that was something. But the opportunity to actually litigate in front of immigration court was huge, if you get that apprenticeship, which that's not necessarily in the world as much anymore. And that was really very proud for me to have that opportunity to teach these really impressionable minds to have to show up professionally proud of what they're doing and also you can't bifurcate your presence in work. Your personal life is different from your professional life. I was like, You can't do that. You got to show up who you are and know full well.
We tell them all the time that your reputation is so important, because that's how you're going to be able to even navigate well or poorly in this world. So that was really something that I was proud about. So going into a coaching capacity as a leadership coach was very seamless for me. I've been doing this for so long, at least the venue. It was just changing the venue, and maybe in a small way, a bigger classroom, I could expand my efforts because we're so many different roles: wife, mother, everything that you know. You don't really have a lot of wiggle room to offer your skills to the world at large because you're so tired sometimes.
Lawyers are very judgmental. It's a demanding career profession. We have to pass the bar. We want to see people show up with credentials as to what they're capable of doing. We don't want to just believe that you put up a sign and say I am who I am. We want to see that you went through the rigorous training for that. So for me, it was really important that I go through a coaching program, and then get certified through The International Coaching Federation because I just wanted to make sure and continue to make sure that I was serving people in the best possible way by using my magic as well.
Bringing that in, my experience, the wisdom, as you know, that you have and you share with so many. So that really scary leap of faith to, okay, I see a picture coming into focus and I'm getting a more of a good vibe around where I'm going. Then, like I said before, a lot of the doors open, they start to open and you're like, Okay, I'm going in the right direction. This feels right, paying attention to your intuition, knowing that you've got a lot of experience that kind of bolsters, that you're not moving in this world completely with uncertainty around preparation, you know, or not preparation.
But, it's been quite a journey. And I will say it was really challenging and I still have moments of that. I love your book Rethink. You always have to step back and rethink perhaps where you're going just to make sure. And I love this. Stephen Covey says not to put the ladder on the wrong wall so that you climb all the way up to the top, and you have to feel like yeah, gotta go back down again, because you didn't really think it out before you started going.
Andi Simon: So what made you then start your memoir, because Butterfly Awakening is a memoir. And that's very different from your other books. What propelled you then to start on this book?
Meg Nocero: So, I think that there was something in me when I was going through the grieving process initially, and I think this is really the reason that was: Don't you dare give up hope because your story has to have some purpose. There has to be a reason why I'm falling apart right now. There's going to be someone out there. That audience of me that Meg is looking for something to hold onto, and not give up hope. As long as you keep moving forward and find, or I mean really ask for help that you might need to help you, navigate some really challenging times, then as long as you keep walking this path, trusting the process, then you're going to be okay. And I think it's always too early to quit your life.
I think I hear over and over a lot of people feeling so helpless or hopeless and I wanted to send a message that life is filled with ups and downs. Unfortunately, sometimes the downs kind of are a little too much. Then when they're too much, go to the people who've been through what you're going through to help walk you through to the end. And I love one of the things that I was told over and over during that process from my beautiful friend, Janet, was, We're here to walk each other home. And if home is the end and I have no regrets, then this was a great life. That's kind of where I'm going. That's kind of what I'm looking to do.
So inspire someone who might be in a really dark place to know that it's going to be hard and okay. You might need to sit in your closet and cry for a couple days, months, who knows? But at the end of the day, I'm here to grab your hand and say it's time to move on because your life really is special. Your talents are really unique and we need everyone to be a part of this process.
Andi Simon: I went to some of the quotes because I think it captures the beauty of the books and perhaps of yourself. This one I love: “Perhaps a butterfly. Remember, this is a butterfly awakening, perhaps a butterfly is proof that you can go through a great deal of darkness, yet become something beautiful.” And that was from Bode Kaplan, an American writer. That's what I love.
And then this is Oprah: “The whole point of being alive is to evolve into the complete person who you were intended to be. Sometimes we don't know what that is. There's a path.” Then there was one more: Robin Williams: “You're only given one little spark of madness, you mustn't lose it.”
You reach a point in life where I've achieved a great deal, you have as well. My family has grown and I have wonderful grandkids, they're all very healthy and happy, and I'm blessed. My husband and I have been together for most of our lives. And so now we have this ability to give. What's my purpose? What's our passion? What can we take from our life experience, your journey and mine, and help somebody else through their hurdles, mazes, ways?
Remember, life is really a past, a very simple, sophisticated means where you don't know what's here. So what I've learned, and then you can tell me what you've learned, is that serendipity really is part of life. You just show up and someone will say something and if you keep your mind open, you'll go, That's a big idea. Yeah, I love serendipity. So keep showing up.
And the second thing I learned is to test things you never know. Some will work, some won't. So what, move on. I learned that a long time ago. Remember, I'm an anthropologist who helps companies change. I am always in this vacuum where there's nothing happening. And when I work with companies who don't know what it is, then it's an important time for us to figure out something there. And then the third one is talking to people. And you know, the science of well-being has taught us that acts of kindness, gratitude, and talking to people can make your day beautiful.
Whether it's written or it's not, your mother gave you that oxytocin and serotonin and made you feel that there was a connection, and you belong. So she gave you that. We're almost ready for us to wrap up. Tell me and the audience two or three things that you hope they haven't forgotten as they finish up listening to you today. What are the things that you want them to walk away with inspired in some fashion? Any thoughts?
Meg Nocero: You know, I love what you said. Thank you so much. I'm going to take that with me as well. I'd like to leave people perhaps with the idea that there is something in each of us that is so incredibly special. And it's where we demand that you embrace that beauty. Because each one is here to bring something really incredible to the world by virtue of your presence alone, imagine that just being present.
So with that, I would pray that everyone starts every morning with a belief in self. I think confidence is an amazing, amazing, amazing word. It means in Latin with faith. That confidence, having that faith in yourself that you're here on purpose for a great purpose, is life changing. It changes perspective, it changes how we see ourselves in the mirror, and it changes other people. Because when you start to evolve with this incredible belief in yourself, it gives permission for other people to do the same. That is number one.
And the other thing I want people to take away is, it's always too early to quit on yourself. You never have to give up because every day is a new opportunity to get to be alive. So if you have that opportunity, if you have that gift, I really want you to look at it from a perspective of how I can serve others by virtue of my presence in this world. That is also something positive. Positive psychology dictates when we serve others from a place of love, then we receive it 5, 10, 20 fold because you never know what that input of love will do as a ripple effect beyond your wildest imagination. You might not get it from the person you're serving, but you definitely will receive it and it'll come back to you. And it's that wonderful karmic circle of life.
And especially in this time, the season of seeing more bright lights in this world, I beg everyone just to start seeing themselves that way and somehow figure out a way to turn your light on. Share it and be bright as you can be.
Andi Simon: Now, it's beautiful to listen to you. We know that your well-being is intimately connected to acts of kindness, to say thank you, to being grateful. Do a little of that and you'll find yourself waking with a smile every day. You won't even know where it comes from. That's awesome. But I do have one question: Did you do this on your own or was there someone along the way who lent a hand? People are looking for mentors, and they're looking for sponsors. I was my own mentor, my own sponsor, except for my husband who was my big teammate. But by and large, women are just realizing the power of collaboration, conversation, the network. But up until now, I was the only SVP in a bank, the only VP in the bank who was a woman. I was the only woman on boards and after a while you become lonely. How about yourself? Was there anyone in your life? Or are you also a soloist here?
Meg Nocero: You know, I will say this. I definitely have been impacted by a lot of strong women in my life. And starting with my family, we're talking about how incredibly grateful I am to have the example of strong women in my Italian American family going from my grandmothers and my mother and my aunt. I am beyond grateful for the examples that were set for me because I think that has a lot to do with legacy. And it would have been much harder had I not had them walking before me. I have a grandmother who was like four foot nothing and she was always out there and she would say, “Get in the room. You're just as good as everybody else." She would push me forward.
Andi Simon: What's interesting is that I almost wrote this book and called it What I Learned At My Grandmother's Knee. I loved it. And that's a book that should come because she was a matriarchal novelist, family firm, that I was supposed to move into and take on. By the time I was able to stand, I watched her and I learned from her and learned from my mother who was deeply involved in there. And in some ways, I became who I am with them as my role models.
But they were interesting, because when I told them I was going to be an anthropologist, they sort of rolled their eyes and said, Whatever you do, you're on your own. Here you go. And then I said, Don't worry. Never did I look back. So we had the joy.
I'm going to say goodbye so that our listeners can wrap up and go on their beautiful day and thank our listeners for coming. It's truly a pleasure to share Meg Nocero with you. Butterfly Awakening is a marvelous book. I do think that you will all get inspired to blossom like a butterfly does and realize that things are challenging, but there's tomorrow and don't waste it.
There's a little quote I have here from The Shawshank Redemption: "It's time to get busy living or get busy dying.” Love that little quote because today's a good day to start. For all of you who come, thank you for sending us emails, they're terrific. Just to emphasize, On the Brink with Andi Simon is now ranked in the top 5% of all the podcasts globally thanks to all of our audience and listeners. And I'm glad to enjoy the audio and the video. Share it. It's great fun. I'll say goodbye. Thank you, Meg, it's been a pleasure.
Learn how you can reach or exceed your income goals!
Jessica Yarborough brings to you, our listeners, her highly successful approach to helping consultants and businesses significantly accelerate their growth. Her process is an interesting one. In today's podcast, we talk about the challenges people face who have created courses or are selling low-end programs who are not reaching their income goals. Listen in and let’s think about how to help you build your sales, create long-term clients, and hit your income goals.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
What you can learn from listening to Jessica's story
- Research your clients
- Work with people with proven track records to bring you results
- Stay focused on the process.
You can connect with Jessica on LinkedIn, Facebook, her website, her blog or her YouTube channel.
About Jessica Yarborough
Jessica is a Business Strategist and Growth Expert who specializes in advising entrepreneurs who want to build a business that's scalable, sustainable and wildly profitable. She went from building multiple companies to leaving it all behind to backpack around the world, then became a yoga teacher and a single mother, and finally, created the successful international consulting company she now runs today.
Ready to get going and get growing? Here's a great place to start
- Blog: Best Practices to Scale Your Business for Growth
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Podcast: Maggie Karshner—Ready To Start And Grow An Amazing Business? Maybe You Need A Coach!
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon and as you know, my job is to help you get off the brink. I do that by looking for really wonderful people to come and speak to you about new ways to see things, feel differently, think about them, and actually do them.
So today I have Jessica Yarborough with us. What's really interesting is that we found each other on LinkedIn. And LinkedIn is one of those remarkable places to help people see, feel and think in new ways. I think you're going to love her story because she's going to help you think about where you're going and how she has some great tools and ideas about how to help you get there. So let me tell you a little bit about Jessica and then she'll tell you her story.
Jessica has quickly developed a reputation of being one of the best business strategists and marketing and sales consultants for entrepreneurs like myself, and sales consultants who want to sell high value products and services. Her background is in international businesses and she's built multiple companies. You are going to love today's journey with her because it's interesting. This is a wonderful story by a brilliant woman.
Jessica is a genius at showing entrepreneurs how to build an expert platform, rapidly raise their value, and build their credibility online to attract high-paying clients. She travels the world teaching and inspiring entrepreneurs and helping them grow their influence and income so they can have the impact that they want. This is such fun. I'm anxious to hear your story, as well as to share it with my audience. So who are you? And how did you get here? Tell us about yourself. It will be fun to share it, please.
Jessica Yarborough: Andi, thanks so much. Well, as you mentioned, and to your audience, I am a business strategist. And today I'm focused on helping scale up coaching and consulting businesses, but I didn't start here. You know, many, many, many years ago I managed multiple companies. I actually built a startup here in San Diego but the work was intense and the hours were grueling. And I remember I actually, even though I built a company, literally, we didn't even have desk computers on day one which was so phenomenal to build.
I actually was on vacation, and I had a spiritual awakening. And I had a moment where I realized that even though I had built something that I was really proud of, it wasn't in alignment with where I wanted to go with my life. And now in that moment, I made one of the most empowering decisions in my life, which was to make a decision all on my own, and to follow that inner guidance. So essentially, I flew back to the United States, I walked away from my company, bought a one way ticket, and I spent four years traveling the world, going deep into personal development, spirituality, and really finding out who I was at the core of myself.
I had great adventure stories around that but I did come back to the US. After about four years, I got pregnant with my daughter and became a single mom. Okay, time to build again. And I started my consulting business literally, and raised a child on my own to build it to seven figures, and have helped many, many clients reach high six and seven figures in their own businesses.
Andi Simon: In my book, Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business, there are several women who went on their own journeys. One went through Africa. One went through Europe and Israel on $5 a day. As an anthropologist, the journey isn't inconsequential. So I don't want to jump immediately into who you are today. Can you share a little bit about some of the discoveries during that journey that prepared you for who you became. If you can, that would be really interesting to share.
Jessica Yarborough: I mean, I will say it was probably the most magical time in my life. There's so many insights that you can garner from looking at other cultures. One of them being how similar we really are. It doesn't really matter how you were raised. At the core, we all have the same basic needs. Being able to learn from other cultures, their food, their spirituality. From spending time in silent meditation at retreat centers in Thailand to literally, practicing yoga in ashrams in Bali, to living in the jungles of Costa Rica. There are so many different experiences that really colored my world, about nature, about spirituality or God, connection to the earth, about human beings and our desire for love and appreciation and connection. And all of those shaped who I am today. I don't think that I would be the business woman I am today without them. I would have been successful had I continued on my trajectory when I was younger, but I would not be who I am nor have the same depth in terms of level of fulfillment and purpose.
Andi Simon: Well, with that in mind, my hunch is you've brought that to your clients. So there are some things that I know you would like to share about how you approach a client and their own trajectory to begin to infuse their growth. Whether it's a consultant or an entrepreneur, or someone inside a company trying to grow their own capabilities, how do you approach a client? And how do you bring this wisdom to them, to inspire them to maybe rethink where they're going?
Jessica Yarborough: Absolutely, we all need someone outside of us to help us see our own greatness. You know, hold up the mirror to what we cannot see. We are typically blind to our innate gifts. Even the most successful people I know, and I work with CEOs who have built 14 companies, and it's hard sometimes for even them to own their brilliance, their gifts. Part of the first thing I do is hold up that mirror for them and help them not only to recognize the incredible achievements that they've made in their life, but to actually see the pattern of really where their strengths lie because we all can do a lot of different things. And part of growing and excelling at anything is to become an expert at anything. We have to choose what are the core things that really are our greatest gifts. What is our unique genius and then we need to codify them in a way that we can teach, we can inspire, we can transfer knowledge to others. And so that's one of the first things I do with my clients is really help them codify, What is their genius?
Andi Simon: And do you do that in a particular process? Or is it done through conversational coaching? Or do you have a methodology that you can share?
Jessica Yarborough: Yeah, it's phase one of my methodology. So I have five systems that I teach to scale up companies. And the first one is the foundation of everything. It's your offer, your impact system, it's how you're going to make an impact in the world with your gifts. And this is the WHO understanding. Who do you want to serve at the deepest level? And that may not be who you served in the past.
We might completely reposition you. That's the HOW. How you're going to take your clients who are in the pain of their existing reality, they're struggling, they're frustrated, and you are going to essentially build a bridge to their ultimate vision. You are going to save them years of time and frustration, divorce, whatever it may be, and take them to their ultimate reality.
So codifying that, HOW, and then tying it into that WHAT. What it is you actually sell, and then bringing the WHY behind why it is what you do. All of that is absolutely necessary to the foundation of a business. What you do, who you are, who you serve, and how you do it.
Andi Simon: You know, as an anthropologist, I often work with my clients on their stories. Whether it is a corporate culture story, or it's an individual one, we help them change. Usually, we're helping the individuals change as well as the institution. But what you just described are the elements of a good story. And the story that we usually carry around may not be the one that's going to take us to the next stage.
If I hear you correctly, we have to take apart the current story and begin to build that new one in such a way as we can visualize, and I use that word very intentionally. Because if you can't see it, you can't be it. Consequently, that story and the telling of that story becomes an important part of how we begin to see where we're going.
And then the question is, how do you get there? Because what we often find is that I get them to figure out that story, about what it is they want to be either as a person or as a company, and then how do you backward plan it. They all get stymied on the action steps, the small wins, the actual change. Sometimes I tell them it's like theater. Life is like theater, and you know the script for Macbeth. But tomorrow, you're gonna play Hamlet and you don't have a script and you don't have any time on stage. So how are we going to do this? So as you've developed this, is my model similar to yours? And how do you help them actually implement these things?
Jessica Yarborough: I definitely think there are similar parallels, because we do have to have the WHAT identified and there is a story behind that. One of the first things we do after we develop that is I teach them to teach their system to tell their story. And as you know, as a storyteller, you have to be able to bring in emotion. You have to be able to also back it up with logic for those that want to justify sales. And so having that beautiful story is actually the very center of everything that we do together next: which is their messaging, their positioning, literally it is the foundation, everything that we do in my program. Beyond that comes from that original story.
Andi Simon: Yes. So once you get that in your head, then we now need to tell it and the messaging becomes really critical.
Jessica Yarborough: Absolutely. So phase two of my system is marketing, which is your influence system. It's how you're going to generate widespread awareness, eager excitement and demand for your services. And there's really three phases to that. One is an audience. You have to have the right people who are listening to you, who are going to lean in and ultimately take action and buy from you, or download something or whatever the action may be. And I think a lot of people get caught on having a massive audience,not about quality, it's really about quantity. It's about having the right people in there who are your dream people, and the name of the game is then relevancy.
We can do that with your messaging. Messaging allows you to really cut through the noise and to create a depth of trust and rapport without them even having gotten on the phone call with you. And so that, if you can get that piece right, which we help you with, it makes a huge difference in terms of your ability to grow your business.
And then the third one is positioning. So a lot of online entrepreneurs have what I call weak positioning. So they may know that they're the expert, or feel that they're the expert, but the world around them still sees them on a peer to peer level. So we have to shift the perception because someone is not going to pay you to solve their problem if they believe you are a peer. They are looking for someone who is elevated, who is a mentor, who is ahead of them in some way, who can fill that gap for them. So it's very important that we address the audience, the messaging, and the positioning in order to elevate them as an expert.
Andi Simon: This is really brilliant. I am curious, is there a case study or something you can share with our listeners that illustrates this in some way? Sometimes we have to concretize the story. And the steps sound really very big and important. A case study might bring it all together.
Jessica Yarborough: So I have many case studies. One I'll share is about my client, Michelle. She's a business coach, and in the interior design industry, and she was stagnant at about $250 to $300,000 a year. She had a lot of different products, you know, too many offers. And we always help you hone in into just two, maybe three max. And she wanted to change her positioning in the marketplace and go after a high caliber market. So we really walked her through this process and helped her finally take all these theories that she had kind of spun off and put it into one really beautiful system. And she was able to take that system and scale her company to a million dollars in 12 months. And then we were able to repeat that and exceed that number just nine months later.
Andi Simon: That's very exciting. It sounds like all the stuff was there. It just needed a new package.
Jessica Yarborough: So many people tell me when they come to me that they've tried a lot of different things. They've piecemealed it together, they've cobbled it together. It's not totally reinventing the wheel, it's taking what's already inside you and pulling it together into a beautiful system that is sophisticated, that can elevate you and you can ultimately scale your business with.
Andi Simon: Now, are you working just with entrepreneurs or just with consultants? Are you working with a broad spectrum of people? As the audience that is listening, are you relevant for all of them? Because I think you are but I'm just curious whether you apply it in more context than just, perhaps, a consultant.
Jessica Yarborough: So my focus is mostly on coaches, consultants, trainers, speakers. I also have an agency for our clients as well. Typically, if you're outside of the coaching and consulting world, you are working with me on a one to one level. So I do help companies in that regard. But in the past, I've certainly worked with all kinds of companies and all different levels from health care to nonprofit to spiritual conscious businesses. But my focus is really how can I apply the system and if you have a service based business, and if your goal is to sell high end because I don't do courses or membership models, or any of that. I am a digital marketing expert, I can help you with that. But it's not where I choose to play. But if you want to sell, like I said, bigger engagements and make a massive impact as you work with people on a more intimate level for that transformation, then that's where my services come in.
Andi Simon: This is really exciting. As you're thinking about this for the audience out there, are there two or three or four things that are really key to this that they should pay attention to? Because my hunch is that there's a whole lot of coaches, consultants and speakers who are looking as we come out of the pandemic for a new positioning or beginning to understand what's going on inside of the companies. Are there some real key things that we're ready to really focus on?
Jessica Yarborough: Well, absolutely. I would look at the ladder of influence. A lot of people start out at the bottom with the generalist. You can think of this as a Jack or Jill of all trades, master of none. This might be someone who has way too many offers. They constantly change their messaging, or they're constantly launching new things. It could also mean someone who has too many things that they claim to be: life coach, business coach, real estate agent, you know, and a dozen other things.
And what the main takeaway for your audience is, you cannot build expert authority if you try to be everything to everyone. If you try to be everything to everyone, you end up being nothing or no one to the one person that matters. And so the first key is to move from generalization to specialization and that is to pick a lane. This could be a niche, it could be a specific industry, but you have to go all in on what you want to be. It may not be who you are right now, it could be that next level thing that maybe you have a little bit of fear, a little bit of trepidation around. But you know it's within you. You know there's greatness. You know you're not living up to your potential and you're ready to step into specialization.
You can scale your business from $150 to $350,000, but there is a place where you become stagnant. And typically this is when the business owner becomes the bottleneck. They're doing all the things. And so really, the scaling comes at expert level. And that's when you put these five systems, I described two of them, in place and you start to move from being the hunter to the hunted online. Your name becomes synonymous with the very person that can help your ideal clients solve their problems. So if you can focus on that ascension, up the ladder of influence, you will be able to break the glass ceiling, self imposed glass ceiling, in your business and reach new heights very quickly.
Andi Simon: This is very interesting. I love the idea of going from hunting to being the hunted where people are searching for you. And they're not only searching for your name, but for those keywords that might solve the problem that they're looking for. And you come up because you've done great jobs on content, marketing, and keywords and other things in the digital world. But you also have a reputation that now is taking you to places where people are looking for you.
Jessica Yarborough: It's like finding what I call your Goldilocks moment: it's just right, it's not too cold. That's not passive, we're just waiting for people to come. It's not too hot, where you are being aggressive, and you're hard closing or you're trying to slide into a CEO of a $100 million company and get him to watch your webinar. Just nothing. It's the Goldilocks moment, it's just right. There are people flowing to you, you're still putting out some outward energy to build that credibility, but it's that perfect moment, that perfect balance, that perfect flow state that allows you to get to the next level.
Andi Simon: I love what you're saying even as I'm thinking about myself, because we've been in business for 20 years, and very successfully with a good flow. But the pandemic, it's been fascinating because our clients have all stayed on and new ones have come in great. We specialize in helping people change. And if the pandemic has taught us anything, it is all about change. And most people don't like and don't know how to do change. And the vacuum that's coming out of this is they're not quite sure what the new normal is and culture is what is the essence of who we are. But we're not quite sure if the old will work in the new.
So it's a perfectly interesting time for us to lend a hand to help people do what they know they have to but aren't quite sure how to. And I often feel like a golf coach. They all want to play golf, but nobody knows how to swing the club. So that's where we begin. But it's a very interesting opportunity to focus.
And I love the idea of not always being out there searching, but letting people find you because of the reputation you've built, and the kinds of things that they need, and you can help them solve. So it's an interesting mindset. I also like the idea that you're not out there cold calling. It doesn't sound like that. I can only say that LinkedIn, with all of its joy, has generated a ton of people who are taking that half hour on my signature and making appointments. And I'd say, what are we talking about? I want to do it so we can be partners. Partners on what? I have a hunch you have seen some of this as well.
Jessica Yarborough: Absolutely. And so what I would recommend doing is building stronger systems around that to protect your time and that is actually one of the keys to move up into expert level. It is to get those protective measures in place, a strong application process because people will take advantage of your time sometimes just to sell you something which is a very awkward situation to be in.
Andi Simon: I have a hunch we can talk more about those protective bridges and keep people from simply saying this would be nice, I'll follow you. But I do think those are new things that have emerged in different ways and the times they are changing so it's pretty cool times. Some last thoughts and if listeners would like to reach you or to engage with you, how could they do that and any wisdom you would like them to remember?
Jessica Yarborough: You can reach me at Jessicayarborough.com. I'm also very active on LinkedIn. I'm sure you'll provide some links in the show notes. So feel free to send a connection message and just let me know you heard me on the show. And I'm happy to accept.
Just some parting words: if you're someone that knows you have brilliance and a gift to give the world, whether you're in your corporate job, or whether you're an entrepreneur, definitely lean into that and know that it is possible for you to achieve whatever it is you dream up. You have to take action on it. You have to walk through the proverbial fire. But I promise you that the freedom that you want is waiting for you on the other side.
Andi Simon: And you don't have to go on a journey for four years wandering around the world. I encourage you to do that, but if not, think of this as your journey. Right?
Jessica Yarborough: Absolutely. In fact, what I tell people, and I recommend this for men or women, if you need to make a decision, do not survey everyone around. Go rent a cabin in the woods, go rent wherever it may be, an apartment on the beach, take an Airbnb and take a few days to release it and be with yourself and your inner thoughts. And the answer that you're seeking will reveal itself.
Andi Simon: I'm going to emphasize that because the brain is this wonderful critter. And if you put enough stuff into it, it begins to sort it all out. And some good nights of sleep, some good walks on the beach, just quiet time. The quiet mind is amazing at what it puts together. And all of a sudden you have that epiphany. Someone will say something, and you'll go, that's just what I've been thinking. And so I love your smile, because I think that's exactly how you had your discovery as well, isn't it?
Jessica Yarborough: Yes, like Ram Dass says, “the quieter you become, the more you can hear.”
Andi Simon: That's correct. And I loved it. So I've had Jessica Yarborough here today. What a delightful conversation. And I hope you, our listeners and our viewers, have picked up a really important part of who you are, and how to turn yourself from being on the bottom of a ladder to hunting for good clients to off-set. Having built a reputation that clients are coming to you because you know how to position yourself, tell the right messaging, and really understand how you become the authority on the right solution for them. And they're looking for you. Can we find you? And so it's a really important time to do this.
I thank all of you who come. Remember, we've been ranked in the top 5% of global podcasts, which sort of blows my mind. But that's because all of you out there who come and listen and watch. I think the most exciting part though, is that you send us emails, at info@ andisimon.com with all the kinds of folks you'd like to hear. And we try to find them and bring them to you.
I hope you've enjoyed Jessica as much as I have today. And I do think that she's got a five step process. There's nothing in the process that will help you duplicate what she's saying. So it isn't ad hoc, and it isn't to sit in a room and make it up the process of discovery, of reimagining and of delivery. The action steps are extremely important. So I think you're going to enjoy this new journey.
And on that note, I'm going to urge you to read my books: Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business — it's almost a year old and it's doing extremely well on Amazon and a best seller — and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is an award winning book about how a little anthropology can help your business grow. It's not quite what Jessica's talking about, but it has a little bit in there. And the case studies are going to show you how anything can help you see things through a fresh lens like today will help you have that aha moment and expand. So it's time to expand your vision. So we're gonna say goodbye. And thank you very much for coming today.
Hear about the amazing innovations in our food supply
You are going to love learning from Anne Greven. Anne is the Global Head of Food and Agribusiness Innovation and the FoodBytes! Platform at Rabobank. Our shared interests are all around change, specifically, how to create a new way to produce food at a time when agriculture is facing escalating crises in soil, water and the environment. In today’s podcast, you will listen to this amazing woman talk about her own personal journey and what she has learned as she moved up in the banking world. You just might leave feeling a little better about our planet, too.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some of the key topics Anne and I discuss include:
-
How does a woman manage her career path in an industry that is both European and male-dominated? As a woman who spent 14 years as an executive at three banks, I particularly enjoyed listening to Anne's story and experienced many of the same challenges she has been able to overcome.
-
Anne has a deep interest in the innovations taking place in our food chain, as does Rabobank. Together Anne and I dig into these emerging breakthroughs and the talented entrepreneurs who are pushing them forward.
-
We talk about changing the culture of organizations. This is a major challenge for all companies today. The way we always did things might not work in this ever-changing world coming out of the pandemic period. But what will work and how do we help create it?
Listen in and share your thoughts.
Get to know Anne Greven
A Rabobank veteran, Anne has spent more than 15 years in its New York office, leading landmark client-facing businesses. In her previous roles as Head of Acquisition Finance and Managing Director, Co-Head of Capital Markets, she oversaw a large portfolio of private equity clients focused on food, beverage and agriculture investments.
Having this unique financial and "food and ag" experience enables her to provide invaluable insight and advice to team members, clients and startup entrepreneurs, coaching them on refining their business models with an eye toward investment and marketplace success. You can reach Anne on LinkedIn.
For a deeper dive into innovation and our food supply, we recommend these
- Podcast: Sam Radocchia—Ready To Trust Blockchain With Everything From Your Food To Your Taxes?
- Podcast: Sam Radocchia—Your Bitcoin Pizza Is Ready: Hear How Blockchain Is Coming Soon To You
- Podcast: Marton Ven—Applying Blockchain to Every Detail of the Food We Eat
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear about amazing innovations in our food supply!
You are going to love learning from Anne Greven. Anne is the Global Head of Food and Agribusiness Innovation and the FoodBytes! Platform at Rabobank. Our shared interests are all around change, specifically, how to create a new way to produce food at a time when agriculture is facing escalating crises in soil, water and the environment. In today’s podcast, you will listen to this amazing woman talk about her own personal journey and what she has learned as she moved up in the banking world. You just might leave feeling a little better about our planet, too.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some of the key topics Anne and I discuss include:
-
How does a woman manage her career path in an industry that is both European and male-dominated? As a woman who spent 14 years as an executive at three banks, I particularly enjoyed listening to Anne's story and experienced many of the same challenges she has been able to overcome.
-
Anne has a deep interest in the innovations taking place in our food chain, as does Rabobank. Together Anne and I dig into these emerging breakthroughs and the talented entrepreneurs who are pushing them forward.
-
We talk about changing the culture of organizations. This is a major challenge for all companies today. The way we always did things might not work in this ever-changing world coming out of the pandemic period. But what will work and how do we help create it?
Listen in and share your thoughts.
Get to know Anne Greven
A Rabobank veteran, Anne has spent more than 15 years in its New York office, leading landmark client-facing businesses. In her previous roles as Head of Acquisition Finance and Managing Director, Co-Head of Capital Markets, she oversaw a large portfolio of private equity clients focused on food, beverage and agriculture investments.
Having this unique financial and "food and ag" experience enables her to provide invaluable insight and advice to team members, clients and startup entrepreneurs, coaching them on refining their business models with an eye toward investment and marketplace success. You can reach Anne on LinkedIn.
For a deeper dive into innovation and our food supply, we recommend these
- Podcast: Sam Radocchia—Ready To Trust Blockchain With Everything From Your Food To Your Taxes?
- Podcast: Sam Radocchia—Your Bitcoin Pizza Is Ready: Hear How Blockchain Is Coming Soon To You
- Podcast: Marton Ven—Applying Blockchain to Every Detail of the Food We Eat
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Read the transcript of our podcast here
Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink, a fresh lens to take you and your business to new heights. Hi, I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And I'm celebrating now because we're almost four years into doing podcasts and we have passed our 300th podcast. And these are really exciting times. There's something that is fascinating about sharing great people's stories with other great people. And I do think that this is an important day as we're looking forward to 2022. All the kinds of things that women are trying to do to help women not just become the best they can be, but really change our society so that women can thrive. Remember, women are more than 57% of college graduates, more than half the doctors, half the dentists. We seem to simply have a hard time making that stick as something that people are embracing.
I brought Anne Greven here today. And she has a wonderful Corgi behind her that you're going to enjoy. Okay, it's better than him scratching at the door. And we both love dogs, and welcome to this wonderful world of remote work, hybrid work and what the heck. Annie is the Global Head of food and agribusiness innovation and food platform at Rabobank. And I am an ex-banker, so we share lots of familiar stories about both banking, women in banking, and those kinds of words...innovation and banking.
Rabobank food and agricultural innovation platform drives collaboration between startups, corporate leaders and investors to develop solutions to food system challenges. Now, if you aren't familiar with the challenges of food today, it's water, and the deterioration of it, it's soil and the question of how to fertilize and what to fertilize with, and all kinds of things with the distribution of it. I love Arrow Farms that has indoor growing centers that are growing two billion things of food. Stop and Shop just announced they're now providing indoor grown stuff for the Netherlands, where all their food is grown on rooftops. There's so much innovation coming in the agribusiness world that it's important for us to know about it, but also to help contribute to it. And what's the role of women in this whole process? So Annie, thank you for joining me today.
Anne Greven: Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.
Andi Simon: It's fun. Annie, share your own story, it's a terrific one. And it also serves as a role model for women who are looking at both financial services but also how to bring your innovation into the mix, so that you can really begin to see things through a fresh lens.
Anne Greven: When I talk about who I am, I often say I'm a banker. I'm an almost 30 year veteran banker. But I was very fortunate to marry my passion for food and ag when I joined Rabobank about 17 years ago, because all they focus on is supporting the food and agricultural system. While I am a person who grew up in New York on Long Island, no less, I was fortunate to spend a lot of time out West where I fell in love with the Western landscapes and the Western way of life, but also in the livelihood of cattle ranches. So that's where my first passion really became with food and ag on a beef operation. But it's expanded with my love of food, and love of cooking and all things food and agricultural related.
The important part of the nexus for me is that my biggest passion, even from a very young age, was making sure that we did more to preserve the environment. And we are now at this really fascinating time where the world is coming together to recognize the challenges of global warming and its impact. And most explicitly, you see food and ag as the center of those discussions. So I'm at this point in my sort of next part of my career, I've really been able to embody looking at innovation and what are the sustainable solutions for building a food and agricultural system for the future. Working with large companies, small companies to sort of help realize those ambitions, we're going to have to feed 50 million people and then 10 billion people by 2050. So we better get going. We have a lot of work to do. While we also need to preserve the planet.
Andi Simon: If you look at Africa, the women are the agriculturalists and without sufficient water, they don't have any source of income or food. And it's very complicated because it isn't simply about irrigating better. There's no way to do that. And when you look at the whole continent, you say, wow, now I begin to understand, this is not simple or easy. This is a complex global problem, and we can’t solve it solo. So what are you doing with Rabobank and the kinds of innovations you see developing, and we'll talk about being a catalyst for women as we go through it, but I do think you're seeing some terrific ideas emerging. And we both know that innovations take time to see it and grow. But unless we fertilize it and grow them up, then the idea turns into nothing. The ideation person, what are you seeing?
Anne Greven: We are seeing so many amazing things we tend to focus on. And that seems like a very broad statement, but it's true, we get to work with young talent, who are really looking at the agricultural landscape differently than I may have. And even generations prior to me, they're actually looking at it with a lens for tomorrow. So whether some of these ideas you talked about, growing foods: maybe you'll go into a grocery store that you know today, but maybe in the future, we'll be walking into a greenhouse-like experience, or we'll think about how we are able to capture water from the air that helps filters arid landscapes.
The technology exists, but these are the kind of things that will come forth to really become viable in the future. I think when we think about what it is going to take, there's so many facets to the Food and Ag system that we look at everything across the supply chain, and we call it farm to table or farm to fork. And it really is so many different facets of what needs to happen at the farm, at the distribution, at the warehouses, in the restaurants, getting to the grocery stores, to the consumer, and then how the consumer behaves after that. So that's how we look at innovation. And we look at solutions that help optimize more sustainable opportunities to solve problems that aren't as efficient today, or aren't being solved.
Andi Simon: You know, as you think about that farm to table, one of my podcasts was on blockchain and how it was being used on grass-fed beef in Wyoming, so you could track and trace it. And there was blockchain being assigned to beef coming out of Australia, so you could track and trace it. Even eggs, so you could track and trace them. People would not think that even WalMart is putting blockchain chips on its food so we can track and trace it. That's one of those quiet innovations that has tremendous implications. If you really want to know where your food comes from, and how do you make sure that if you're buying a premium piece of steak, it really is? Or maybe you don't want to buy steak at all? And that's a whole other conversation. But are there other ideas that you think that really strike you as important for people to become aware of and begin to think about?
Anne Greven: I look at a couple of our alumni and Kaprow Acts is a company that I think about and how they're taking yogurt. People love yogurt, there might be too much yogurt in the yogurt aisle, but there is a lot of yogurt. And with a lot of yogurt, there's a lot of waste. And we call that whey waste. And whey waste is incredibly toxic to the groundwater. So Kaprow Acts actually takes that whey and makes it into oils that can replace the use of palm oils, or other types of oils in our food system. And that's in essence creating this closed loop technology. So that's one where you don't really think about the yogurt you might be eating, or how we got to that stage. But basically, we suck out a certain amount of water. And with that a certain amount of whey and that actually is a waste product. So finding ways such as Kaprow Acts is amazing in the use of that waste.
Another one is a company that I'm going to encourage you all to be a part of is Imperfect Foods. Imperfect Foods was one of those companies that was really designed around making sure that the waste that was coming off of farms wasn't a perfect carrot or a perfect apple. It was either too small or too big or too ugly, or too this. They were able to say okay, you know what? These are all really good foods that the consumer, who doesn't care about the imperfect apple, is probably going to buy. And they've built that company in the last five years, especially during the pandemic, into a food delivery system, upcycling the waste, so that us as the consumer can consume it and thinking about the delivery model in a way that really made it work. The pandemic actually was very good for them, and still is. But imagine, you're going to eat a carrot that otherwise would have most likely got ground up and given to feed.
You know there's another company but I'm drawing a blank. So I apologize. But I will come back to it. Hopefully the name comes to me. It is a company that's actually looking at taking the waste of carbon and making it into food. Right now it's being used to feed animals, mostly in the seafood space. But imagine if we can create, capture carbon waste in the air and synthesize it into a food product. It is an amazing full circle as well.
Andi Simon: Yeah, pretty cool. I was fascinated by Amazon buying Whole Foods. And thinking about if Amazon is this clever and innovative company, as it seems to be, it's been ranked among the top, if not the top, could we now watch Whole Foods growing its own food on its rooftops, or its basements or putting the distribution in such a way that it eliminates transportation needs. You may be seeing that already developing. But transportation adds a lot of airways of climate impact, and there aren't any drivers for the truck. So what if I didn't need a driver for the truck? Seeing anything like that developing?
Anne Greven: Well, I think that, you know, this is definitely something that was a big issue. And it's not just now, but prior to covid. People weren't willing to work on farms, work in plants, the labor shortage was a massive issue. And during the crisis, it's become an even bigger issue for many reasons. And we could have a whole podcast about that. So anything that's helping create more efficient technologies such as robotics, massive surge in robotic technology, whether it's making sure that more of the production within plants is robot, you know, roboticized.
In the past, you used to have people at the end of the packing lines, putting things in boxes. Now you're seeing more automation around boxing and distributing. And so now the cost of investing in that is actually at a point where it makes sense for more automation to go in all across our supply chain. So that's real. I think the other thing that really happened is not just about labor, but it's about, as you mentioned, carbon footprint, but making sure that those are shorter. Those shipping and those transportation, so looking more locally, and building out more local accessible systems is very, very real. So whether it's building on your own organic farms and supply chains for those within more cities is definitely one of those things that we're seeing greater demand for and innovation around.
Andi Simon: Yep. I guess there's a part of me that's very curious about this. We had a wonderful client who had a few JAG programs and I learned a lot about lasers that could milk cows. And then the State Department went to them, the state's Department of Agriculture wanted them to start to retrain the technical logical stuff because they still needed people who could understand how cows could be milked by machines. But they didn't need people to stay there. So the human quality became more sophisticated.
And then, there was a gentleman in a group I was working with who grew tomatoes out in the Sacramento area. And he and his father had a big battle going on because the father said, I'll tell you when those tomatoes are ready to be picked, shake the plant and I know, and he had a drone going across to tell you when the tomatoes were ready to be picked. And the two of them were arguing about two different worldviews. And the perceptions became a great conversation for how difficult it's going to be to change but it takes some time for those who have always done it by shaking the plant to realize that drones can give you a pretty good indication of how much water is there when the plant is ready. And I can see it from my desktop, including the tractors now that are autonomous vehicles and call for their own oil changes. I'm not sure what consumers are paying attention to.
Anne Greven: We've seen that consumers' demands are changing significantly. Mostly because the consumers recognize that food really is the primary sustenance and the first step that they can take control of their health. And that really once again, during covid that really accelerated. And so looking at food as medicine, looking at technologies, also advancements around how your body is synthesizing food. What does that mean? What do you need more of? And I think that the health and wellness component of the food system is one area where we just see massive amount of innovation over the next year. Whether it's wearable technology that allows you to tell you how much fat you're synthesizing and how you're metabolizing something you have eaten or how well your body is absorbing it, or how well it isn't. Those are the kinds of things that were really at the forefront.
And even recognition on how your body is responding just by looking maybe into a camera like this. Yes, your doctor can say that you're experiencing an allergy to strawberries, he/she can see it based on these patterns. So I think there's so much coming that will connect the consumer and all of us to our food, and being able to assure us where is that supply chain of foods, a blockchain like you mentioned, but also all of these sensor technologies that can tell you every component of what the DNA of that food is, and how that might impact you. So all of these things exist, it's about how they're going to get supported and how they become relevant in our food system that makes it more sustainable, but also allows us to be smarter about how we use all our resources.
Andi Simon: You say the word that's very important there because I can't tell you how many people say, I'm all for sustainability. And then you ask the powerful question about whether it's in your company or in your own life. I'm not sure people really understand that long supply chain that you described. And where along the way there are opportunities for becoming more sustainable, whatever that might mean. And this becomes an interesting question, particularly as we're seeing more vegetable produce becoming food. And whether it's tofu or it's beef lookalikes or steak lookalikes. Will we slowly be moving to tofu as our primary "tastes like steak but isn't"? And what really means sustainability? Your thoughts on the word and what consumers should pay attention to?
Anne Greven: Yeah, I think there's sustainability in a very, very complex supply chain. I want to be very clear that I don't expect even if I am learning all the time about what the real costs are of something I might consume. And I use coffee as a great example, to really think about, what is the cost of that cup of coffee that you have every day, because we don't grow coffee in our country. It's grown somewhere else. Most of our coffee comes from either Latin America or parts of Africa. That means they're shipping involved. And that means there's a lot on the ground activity that goes on. And most of the coffee you drink comes from a cooperative in either Africa, or Latin America. And that cooperative is probably made up of a farmer that has a hector at most of coffee.
So when you think about all the components and all the processing that happens on the ground there, and then it's gathered, it's shipped, and then it's processed. Then that cup of coffee is probably anywhere from $20 to $75 if you were really actually putting in the real costs, fair labor, and so it's quite complex. And then you add in the fact that we have global warming, and the bands that we grow coffee in are changing drastically. And so where will we be growing coffee?
So when I am asked about growing coffee, the first thing I'd say is don't drink coffee. It's not sustainable. But how can you make that experience more sustainable? And so what I always ask the consumer and myself to do is for yourself, think about consciously what is it that you're consuming and how is it that you're consuming and what is within your own control you can change to make a difference. And because I think that we can all do something. I don't want to dwell on what we've done in our home because it might alienate people. But I would say that, just thinking about how you guys can be more sustainable, like, if you have used coffee grounds, maybe composting those or things of that nature, because coffee grounds are very good for your garden, things like that.
Andi Simon: You have a real problem, because you have the plastic, and where does that go? And coffee planters have their own challenges with the kinds of diseases that are attacking the coffee plants, and different altitudes. And this isn't easy, and yet, we do love our coffee.
Anne Greven: And we look at what's happening right now with the big energy transition, and something I can safely talk about without alienating my clients is that everyone is very keen on batteries. But the reality is the big component of batteries is lithium. And there is a finite supply of lithium. And there's mining, you have to get lithium from somewhere. So there are many components, and while it might be cleaner, from an admission standpoint, is it really better? Yes. And so this is what adds to the complexity of these sustainable conversations, which is why we're going to all have to make choices, and they have to be different and model differently from how we've made them in the past, making clear indicators of what's of the primary importance, and what has the longest impact for health and wellness of our planet. Those are not easy questions. But I think we're at least talking about them now. And we weren't before. And I hope they're beginning.
Andi Simon: To be taught in some schools, so that my grandkids can begin to have a mindset about what they are intentionally doing for their own health. We're part of this environment. So it isn't as if it's an afterthought, it's the thought. As we started our conversation, you and I were talking about the role of women in this world of innovation, as well as in banking. Maybe you want to go back to the role models, the way in which women have roles to play within the innovation platform. And I know you have some particular perspectives on it, and I thought I'd give you an opportunity to share them.
Anne Greven: I could talk about food all day long.
Andi Simon: But I'm a corporate anthropologist who helps companies and the people inside them change. They hate me even when they know they need me. You have the same mission in front of you, where we've got to change the way the world thinks about everything. And along that entire supply chain, a whole lot of folks who are going to say, “Go away, go away, don't bother me,” because nothing is simple. So what's the role of women in all of this? Any perspective?
Anne Greven: Yeah, I thank you for the question. There's so many places I want to go with that. But maybe I'll start with a story because I think sometimes stories are the best indicator of why and what our focus should be. Last week, it's the end of the year and I know this might be airing later in the year, but right now we're in December. And it's the time that a few of us have been able to gather with clients. And we have had the chance to meet with folks that we haven't been able to in quite a while. And so going into those rooms again, where we have 100 plus people, everyone was tested, everyone was safe. I want to assure you and I want to share with everyone it was all very controlled.
Andi Simon: No super spreader.
Anne Greven: It was not a super spread event. No one got covid. But everyone tested beforehand and everyone was vaxxed that attended. But what I was struck by, with the two recent events that I attended, is that in both finance and Food and Ag is the lack of women in the room, and that it actually was alarmingly smaller than I had recognized in past year. So it really was the first time. We've been hearing about women stepping out more. It was very present in this conversation. And so I started talking about it pretty openly with the CEOs that were in the room as well as former CEOs and there really was a concern. They were genuinely concerned about this lack of representation.
Juxtapose those two same events with, I had invited some women who run our startups, that we really thought we're doing something groundbreaking, to attend these events. And in many cases, they were really representative of the women of the future. One was a company called Mazen Health, and she is really developing a health platform for the pig industry. Swine specifically, so that we don't have to use antibiotics.
The other was aAnimal and the other one was Agua Bonita, which are these two amazing women who started this company. While they both had just started their families, because they saw a need to have a more authentic beverage that spoke to their roots, which was Aqua Fresca. These three women represented the future. And they were not afraid of taking on big food. They were talking to some of the biggest food net companies, without asking permission, without looking for excuses. And so they were my hope.
And why is it important? Because that was your question, why is it important that these women are doing what they do? It's important because they bring a perspective that is different from even my perspective. But it's also different from someone who's running a large company who might come out of a very male-dominated workforce, because they're all about finding solutions, and seeing through boundaries, because they're running a startup. And there's nothing but boundaries for them.
And so I look at these women and emulate them. And I want to create the path for them because they are the female leaders of Ag that we need for tomorrow. And in finance, you know, Andi and I spoke quite a bit about this. I see having to take the same stance for attracting women to finance. And why is finance important, because a lot of money is distributed from the financial networks, and that institutes power, and we need to make sure that we have more control over how money is allocated. Not only to young, blossoming entrepreneurs like the ones I mentioned, but to other companies which may be led by minorities, but maybe those that have a purpose that is about preserving the planet. That is beyond making 25% return, maybe they make 23% return or maybe they make 24% return or 20% return because they've taken a different path.
Andi Simon: The bigger they are then just return. I don't want you to end our conversation because we can talk about this. Mostly because the work that we're both trying to do is to move that needle forward. But it's not simply a thing that you can twist in some fashion. And the research is fascinating that people will give money to people who look like them. So who are the funders? They tend to be guys and what do they like? It looks like themselves, like a guy.
Only 2.4% of the venture capital money goes to women, these women have a purpose. They have something beyond simply the profits. It's a different story that doesn't necessarily resonate with the investors. The questions I asked are disconnected to the purpose of what they're trying to do. So there's an emerging opportunity to transform the whole conversation. And these women are asking, pressing, pushing. I am in awe of their guts. They just don't know, they don't really care, they're gonna make it happen somehow.
The society that we live in is man's because we will not survive on this planet unless we make changes sooner than later. Because there won't be anything left to change. And when you look at evolution, it's never been any easier. You know, it's not ever easier. You think people gave up horses to pick up the car? No, they threw a lot of barbed wire around the Ford and threw stones at it because it was evil. They've been riding horses for 1000 years, who would rather do anything other than ride a horse. So it's never been simple to bring new things into existence. But somehow we keep pushing forward.
My hope is that through the eyes of folks like these women, there are men as well not to diminish them. Somehow, we can open up new ways of transforming us and the world. And it's got to happen. Now, we can't wait 100 years because we're not gonna make it. So how fast? Can we help them and support them? And, I'm gonna say this, I want to hug them. Because in some ways we're all committed to what they're trying to do, aren't we? We're about ready to wrap up the last thought or two, to give our audience something to walk away with other than hope. And I think that's something that you've shared with us because it's full of hope. And I think big ideas, and if we're gonna make this happen, it’s going to be together collaboratively.
Anne Greven: Yeah, I would say the one thing I'd like to end on because it's something that I'm going to ask the audience is, what is the one thing you can take on? Especially as it is December, we'll be thinking about January, maybe you make promises for the next year? Maybe not? But believe it or not, a lot of the change is in each and every one of us in our control. So when you think about that one thing that you might be able to do differently, and how it could influence and have rippling influence, remember, if you smile, it's infectious. Yes, it's true. So it's the same thing here. If you just decide that one thing, and commit to it to yourself in the future, it will make a difference.
Andi Simon: And we'll celebrate, because if you celebrate your mind remembers it. So my urging is after you make that commitment, and you make your New Year's resolution, and you actually start to do it, write it down in your gratitude diary every day and you'll wake up in the morning with a smile that you're making the world a better place to live one day at a time. And, you can be a movement for sustainability without doing much other than change your coffee.
Anne will come back sometime and tell us how she's transformed her home. But we're all very important. My book is called On the Brink because we are on the brink. So I want to thank the audience for coming today, whether you're viewing it, or you're listening, and Anne Greven’s has been our guest, and I have just enjoyed every minute of it.
As you can tell, she said that smiles are contagious, they are not going to say we're monkeys, but we are. And when you watch her energy, and you're listening to her thoughts, it is a time for both business and people and our society to change. Because unless we do it a day at a time, a person on time, we'll have some real tough road to hoe here.
I'm Andi Simon, this is On the Brink with Andi Simon. As you know, I love to help you see and feel and think in new ways. In my book Rethink, there are 11 women's stories like Anne's and the women that she was talking about. And I wrote the book so that other women could have role models.
So I'm going to urge you to read my book which is just about out a year now. It came out on January 5th, right before the January 6th mess, but we launched and the book has done extremely well. The reviews are fabulous. And I'm anxious for more and more women to read it and see what they can be. One of the first reviewers said now I have a book I could give to my 13 year old daughter. She's a minority, but now she can actually see how women can become the best that they can be. And if that's really important for us sustainability. But these are women who are making a difference not for just profit, but for purpose, to make the world a better place. And I do think that's what we're all about.
So thank you all for coming. And remember, I love your emails, they come from around the world. A little note: my podcast is in the top 5% of global podcasts. Four years into it. I'm honored and I'm delighted but your emails help us bring new people onto the stage and to share their thoughts. Goodbye, everybody. Have a great one. Bye bye now.
Hear how to overcome the difficulties that block change
In our podcast today, Linda Coughlin and I get deep into a conversation about the challenges of working with organizations that need to change. You are going to love this interview. Lin is an expert on how to help companies rethink their processes and develop new ways to bring together new teams, engage different generations and successfully build new cultures, often from the merger of different organizations. As you'll hear, she and I are on the same page. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some of the ideas Linda and I discuss include:
- Why it is so hard for people to see what is right before them — one of my favorite topics.
- The power of culture to support an organization or undermine its initiatives.
- How to help people develop new solutions on their own, so consultants can build the trust that is needed to move an organization forward.
About Linda Coughlin
As Founder/President of Great Circle Associates, Linda and her firm provide interim executive and strategic advisory services to leaders who need to envision and implement transformative strategies. A published author and speaker on driving change, Linda was selected as one of "20 Directors to Watch" by Directors and Boards magazine. She serves on the board of C200 and is a member of The Women's Policy Group at The Council on Foreign Relations. You can reach Linda on LinkedIn or her website Great Circle Associates, or email her at lin.coughlin@greatcircleassociates.com.
For more on how to bring about real change in your organization, start with these
- Blog: Need To Change? Why Not Turn To The Experts
- Blog: Can People And Businesses Really, Truly Change? Yes! Here's How
- Podcast: Rita McGrath—Don't Run From Change, Embrace It!
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how Blue Ocean Strategy helps you own your market!
In this podcast, Brian Gladden and I go digging into the whys and hows of creating Blue Ocean Strategies®. Brian is a trained Blue Ocean Strategist who helps businesses find unmet customer needs and create uncontested market space by using the tools and methods of Blue Ocean thinking. After conducting 500 workshops and dozens of client engagements, I know the thinking of a Blue Ocean Strategist quite well, and Brian is certainly one of us. He just loves the methodology and objectives behind BOS, as do I. It really works! To learn how to do it, listen in.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
It's all about going where the competition isn't
When we talk about strategy, most people think that they must compete to build a viable business. Strategic differentiation seems to be the path they must follow. Yet, few really know how to successfully compete, differentiate themselves, or bring in new clients. They tend to be imitative, looking like others in their market segment and doing things in much the same way. This is not the path to true and lasting growth. Entrepreneurs in particular must avoid this, becoming simply another version of what is already out there.
Conversely, those who thrive can see the problems that need to be solved and new solutions to solve them. They understand that they need a new strategy that opens new markets and finds better ways to create and capture demand.
If you have become tired of competing, Blue Ocean Strategy might fit you perfectly. Today, supply outstrips demand. It is going to be difficult to out-compete the competition. So how can you recreate new ways to solve old problems, and add value innovatively? You guessed it: Blue Ocean Strategy.
That's exactly what Brian does, and what we talk about in our podcast: how he helps business leaders create new markets, get to markets faster, and focus their attention on what their customers need, not just on what their business does. In other words, how to swim in a Blue Ocean!
Get to know Brian Gladden
Brian has spent 30 years in hi-tech sales, strategy and business development in international firms. He has a doctorate in strategy and innovation and is the Entrepreneur in Residence at the Sacramento State University Carlsen Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship. You can connect with Brian on LinkedIn, Facebook, his website Strategy & Innovation Institute (www.si2blue.com) or his email bkgladden@si2bue.com.
Want to learn how Blue Ocean Strategy can revolutionalize your business?
- Blog: How To Survive These Scary Times: Blue Ocean Strategy®
- Blog: Is Everyone Winning But You? Time For A Blue Ocean Strategy®!
- Podcast: Ask Andi—Blue Ocean Strategy® Step 1
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to launch your own business, successfully
In this podcast you are going to meet Maggie Karshner. She loves to work with people who want to set themselves up in a new business or grow the one they currently have. She and I talk about how to help solo-preneurs take their ideas and become coaches, consultants, therapists, chefs, specialists helping kids get into college, branding experts...you name it and Maggie has done it. During our podcast, we want to help you see what is possible and make it happen. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
The challenge of making it on your own
What Maggie and I both know is that it is difficult leaving a career in a corporate job and launching your own business, successfully. My husband Andy and I have seen that among the students at Washington University during our Simon Initiative for Entrepreneurship summits. And at SAMC, we witness it every day as people come to us to help them frame their story, strengthen their brand, conceptualize their business, and get it off the ground, maybe with a Blue Ocean Strategy.
In our conversation, Maggie describes her approach of taking clients through a systematic, step-by-step process that helps them break down tasks into manageable steps. We then talk about the tools you need as an entrepreneur, from a good business plan and a clear understanding of client needs to the marketing and staffing requirements of your particular business. It isn’t easy. But it is happening all over the place as men and women launch new businesses and watch them grow—or not.
About Maggie Karshner
Maggie Karshner is a self-employment coach based in Seattle, WA, serving solo-preneurs throughout the US. Rather than telling clients how it "should" be done, she listens to their goals and helps them achieve what's important to them. She is widely versed in all things relevant to self-employment, from organizational structure and financials to marketing and promotion.
Prior to launching her business coaching firm in 2014, Maggie had ten years' experience managing a small business, supporting non-profits, and being a corporate business consultant. In addition to working closely with entrepreneurs throughout her career, she is an entrepreneur herself twice over. She has a BA in Geography from Syracuse University. You can connect with Maggie on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, her website www.maggiekarshner.com or her blog.
Want some guidance getting your business off the ground? Start here.
- Blog: What This Successful Entrepreneur Has Learned In Business
- Blog: Crushing It: Women Entrepreneurs Show You How To Build a Better Business
- Podcast: Marsha Friedman—How A Woman Entrepreneur Took A Little Idea And Turned It Into A Big Business
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to publish your very own book!
Are you interested in learning how to write your first book, or maybe your second or third? Listen in today to hear what Vikrant Shaurya, founder of BestsellingBook.com, will teach us about how to write a bestseller. Enjoy the journey with him. You will hear all about my favorite topics: story creating and storytelling. As humans, we all have this wonderful and unique ability to create meaning through our stories, which we then turn into amazing realities that we share and also live. Why not tell your story? Send it along to us and let’s hear it. We'll put it in our podcast, too.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Who is Vikrant Shaurya
An internationally renowned book launch expert, Vikrant is the author of the #1 bestselling business book, How to Write a Bestseller: Become a Bestselling Author, Attract High-Value Clients, and Skyrocket Your Authority. His specialty is helping people publish their own books, even if they don’t have the time or skills to write one.
Vikrant is passionate about helping entrepreneurs, coaches, consultants and professionals bring their stories to life and produce a bestseller that can help skyrocket their business potential. He has helped thousands of entrepreneurs and first-time authors actualize their dreams by joining them in their self-publishing journeys through his courses, coaching and done-for-you services. You can connect with Vikrant on LinkedIn or his website BestsellingBook.com.
Want to learn more about how to publish your own book? Start here.
- Blog: What I Learned Publishing My First Book: On the Brink
- Podcast: Have You Ever Wanted To Write A Book? Perhaps The Time Is Now!
- Podcast: How a Woman CEO Built a Great Publishing Business
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn a new way of thinking for new types of solutions
Have you ever really wanted to know how to think about a problem in a new way? Maybe you need to improve your company’s communications and conversations. Or your employees' motivation and productivity. Perhaps a Design Thinker could help you step back and objectively observe what the problem is and how you could conceptualize different ways to resolve it. Today I have the pleasure of interviewing Lisa Perrine. We have known each other for quite some time, and I am endlessly amazed at what she brings to our audience. Please listen, learn and share!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Using Design Thinking to solve workplace problems in new ways
Lisa and her colleagues focus on the human elements of communication: the interplay between workplace culture and communication, how people experience media, and how individuals interact with technology. As an anthropologist, I am particularly interested in the ROI of Design Thinking, in part because Design Thinkers have embraced ethnographic research and bring different types of observational thinking into their designs, much like we do at SAMC in our work with clients. During my interview with Lisa, you will learn a great deal about:
- Media Synchronicity for Virtual Meetings
- Psychological Safety in Workplace Teams
- The ROI of Design Thinking
About Lisa Perrine
Lisa is an experience designer, communication strategist and CEO of Cibola Systems. She approaches her work with a mixture of curiosity, creativity and the expertise gained from completing over 1000 consulting engagements for clients such as Netflix Los Angeles and London, Pacific Life Insurance Headquarters, Providence St. Joseph Health Donor Experience Design, SAG-AFTRA Los Angeles and New York, Sony Music West Coast Headquarters, TikTok Studio and United Talent Agency Headquarters.
In 2013 Lisa successfully defended her dissertation for her doctorate degree in Organizational Leadership from Pepperdine University. She also earned an MBA from Pepperdine and a bachelor's degree in design from California State University, Long Beach. An avid researcher and frequent presenter, Lisa leads courses and workshops on Experience Design, Scenario Planning and Virtual Team Communication. You can connect with Lisa on LinkedIn or her website LisaPerrine.com, or email her at lperrine@cibolasystems.com.
Want to find solutions to your most pressing business problems? Start here.
- Blog: Innovative Applications of Corporate Anthropology in Business
- Blog: Need To Change Your Organization's Culture? 6 Best Ways To Do It.
- Podcast: Maybe You Need Anthropology To See Yourself In New Ways
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to amp up your sales process for amazing success!
In our podcast today, Doug Brown and I are going to help you sell better. As CEO of Business Success Factors, Doug has amazing ideas about how the sales process really works, and how to help you make yours deliver the results you have always wanted it to. We will also dig into the emotional blocks that hold people back from becoming the sales success they are meant to be. As you know, I am always looking for people to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Doug is just the guy for us today. In this current business environment, I really urge you to take a listen.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some of the areas we discuss include:
- Hiring sales superstars
- Optimizing your sales process
- And what I think is so important: conversational intelligence so you can overcome objections
About Doug Brown
Doug started working for his family’s business at the age of three. Since then, he has started and built over 35 companies. During college at Northeastern University, Berklee College of Music, and Salem State University, he supported himself by selling music equipment to colleges, universities, corporations and some of the world’s biggest bands such as Aerosmith, Boston, The Eagles and others.
Over the years, Doug has consulted, coached, advised and trained thousands of people in businesses in 47 US states and 14 countries. Some of these companies include Enterprise Rent- a-Car, Nationwide, Procter & Gamble and CBS Television. He has also served as an independent president of Sales and Training for companies run by Tony Robbins, Chet Holmes and Russ Whitney.
As the creator of Sales Revenue Growth University, Doug teaches sales revenue growth strategies to companies who are serious about their sales growth. He is also a vocalist and the author of the international bestselling book, Win-Win Selling: Unlocking the Power of Profitability by Resolving Objections. You can connect with Doug via LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, his blog, his podcast or his website BusinessSuccessFactors. Or you can email him at doug@businesssuccessfactors.com.
For a deeper dive into how to maximize sales, here are our recommendations
- Blog: 4 Ways Inbound Marketing Might Change Your Sales Process
- Podcast: How To Explode Your Sales With Intuitive Technology
- Podcast: How To Turn Your Salespeople Into Sales Heroes
- Podcast: Capture, Convince And Close More Customer Sales
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how change can really, actually happen for you
While I have known Marie-Claude Stockl a long time and we are both devoted horse lovers, I never had the pleasure of really getting to know her back story, and how she became so successful doing interesting and important things in teaching people how to better communicate. Today we have a splendid conversation about the challenges women face in the workplace, and the slow pace of change taking place in our society today. Both Marie-Claude and I have experienced being the only woman in the room and we have both endured, determinedly overcoming challenges and bias. Yet, we are both optimists at heart and enthused by the possibilities and opportunities we see for women today, and going forward.Do listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Three themes we discuss which you will enjoy:
- We both grew up with strong women in our lives. They served as inspirational role models and taught us a great deal about how to thrive when we don’t always have a clear path forward.
- Marie-Claude is a big believer in helping people change. Her current venture is to become certified in a program to help organizations reinvent themselves. Our discussion about the relationship between innovation and reinvention is fascinating. Since for most of my career I have helped organizations change, I love learning about new thinking and innovative approaches for getting organizations and the people within them to do what they don’t like to do, which of course is to change.
- The Horse Institute which Marie-Claude created is a brilliant idea. She brings people and horses together and lets them each teach the other about how to communicate, given that horses cannot talk and humans often have trouble listening.
About Marie-Claude Stockl
Marie-Claude is a native of France who began her career in New York, where she reported to presidents and CEOs at Nestlé, Bristol Myers Squibb and Revlon for 20 years. She has orchestrated high profile events with such newsmakers as a former US President, James Earl Jones, Michael Jackson, Claudia Schiffer, Cindy Crawford, Angela Lansbury and Henri Winkler.
Fifteen years ago, she combined her two passions, corporate life and horses, by creating The Horse Institute, where she brings executives to her horse farm in Ancramdale, NY for strategic retreats and team development. Marie-Claude graduated summa cum laude from the University of Paris with a Masters Degree in Communications, is a certified facilitator and executive coach, and is currently studying to become a certified Reinvention Practitioner.
You can reach Marie-Claude through LinkedIn, Facebook, or The Horse Institute website. You can also email her at mc@thehorseinstitute.com.
Ready to see with fresh eyes and discover innovation just waiting for you?
- Blog: How to Convert a Great Idea into a Successful Innovation
- Blog: 4 Great Ways to Become a More Innovative Company
- Podcast: Ask Andi—How Anthropology Helps People See Things With Fresh Eyes
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how fulfilling customers' needs can lead to a big success!
Marsha Friedman is one of those women entrepreneurs who started with little and built a great business in the public relations and communications arena. She didn’t start with a plan. Her parents didn't enable her to go to college. She was simply supposed to find a wealthy man and get married. She never had much funding or capital. She just listened and believed in herself. As she shares with us, she learned over the years to care a lot, have the courage to try and try again, and to think about the customer as part of your team. Hers is an amazing story, one we should all listen to and learn a great deal from.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Marsha's secret to starting and growing a hugely successful business
In our podcast, Marsha and I speak at length about her own journey. As a fellow entrepreneur, I know the feeling of not being sure where to start and how to get going. She did as well. Throughout our conversation, we share with other women the art of starting and growing a business, no matter the industry.
Marsha learned early on to listen to what people were asking for and find ways to fulfill their needs. It worked. Her media PR firm, News & Experts, became an exceptional organization which she sold after 30 years. Now she is on her way to her next journey.
For Marsha, there really is no retirement. This current stage is just a time when she can grow her spirit, share her wisdom and enjoy life with her husband, children and grandchildren. Enjoy our talk and think about your own journey.
Get to know Marsha Friedman
Successful entrepreneur, public relations expert and ForbesBooks author of Gaining the Publicity Edge: An Entrepreneur’s Guide to Growing Your Brand Through National Media Coverage and the Amazon best-selling book, Celebritize Yourself, Marsha Friedman has developed publicity strategies for corporations, professionals and celebrities in the field of business, health and finance for over 30 years. Using the proprietary method she created as Founder and President of News & Experts, her award-winning national public relations agency secures thousands of top-tier media placements annually for its clients. The former senior vice president for marketing at the American Economic Council, Marsha is a sought-after advisor on PR issues and strategies, and a popular speaker nationwide.
You can connect with Marsha on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, the News & Experts website, or her personal website MarshaFriedman.com. You can also email her at mfriedman@newsandexperts.com.
Got an idea to share or a business you want to start? Here are some tips
- Blog: How To Find The Capital That Will Fuel Your Big Idea
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Podcast: Want To Know Why Women Build Better Businesses? Culture.
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to make "hype" powerfully work for you
This was an amazing interview. I met Michael Schein when he interviewed me for an article he was writing for Psychology Today about my podcast, On the Brink with Andi Simon. That’s right, the one you are listening to right now. Our conversation led to today's wonderful opportunity to interview him and share his big ideas about how to embrace “hype” and use it to build success. I know “hype” sounds suspect, but in Michael's case, it involves learning about how people make decisions, and how charismatic leaders capture our attention and cause us to follow them, even when what they are pushing is a hoax or a sham. Here's your chance to learn from an expert how to capitalize on hype, in a good way!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Grow your big idea into a big success
In our talk, Michael outlines some of his tricks so you can try them. Here are several which we use at SAMC, and you can as well:
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Develop a simple slogan that captures the essence of who you are and what you do. For us, it's "We turn observation into innovation."
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Produce a visual symbol that stands for you. Make it bold and simple and then imbue it with meaning. Remember how Nike so powerfully did that with their swoosh. To the right is ours:
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Embrace repetition. You can never say it, sing it, or show it too much. It takes a lot of time for a message to become yours.
About Michael Schein
Michael F. Schein is the founder and president of MicroFame Media, which specializes in making consultants and executive coaches famous in their fields. His clients have included eBay, The Medici Group, University of Pennsylvania, University of California Irvine, United Methodist Publishing House, LinkedIn and Citrix. His writing has appeared in Fortune, Forbes, Inc., Psychology Today and Huffington Post, and he is a highly sought-after international speaker. His book The Hype Handbook: 12 Indispensable Success Secrets From the World’s Greatest Propagandists, Self-Promoters, Cult Leaders, Mischief Makers, and Boundary Breakers, was published in January of this year. You can connect with Michael on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, MicroFameMedia website or The Hype Handbook website.
Want more tips on how to make your business wildly successful? Here's a start
- Blog: What This Successful Entrepreneur Has Learned In Business
- Blog: How to Convert a Great Idea into a Successful Innovation
- Podcast: Karen Dietz—Your Story Is Your Secret to Amazing Success
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to really find more happiness in your life
What can one say about a man who is on a journey to bring better clarity and purpose to all of us who meet him? Interesting? Inspiring? Passionate? Of course. But what I love about Frank Schaeffer is that he has discovered the beauty in caring for others and the power of love, children and family to bring meaning into our lives. In today's podcast, Frank and I talk about his latest book, Fall in Love, Have Children, Stay Put, Save the Planet, Be Happy, but we could be talking about his entire life. It has been one of discovering himself, what really matters, and how, from this new-found purpose, he has emerged as an author, film director, screenwriter, public speaker...and an inspiration. Frank is a true gem. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Our conversation is all around that elusive word “Happiness”
Why is it so hard for people to find purpose and happiness in their lives? Far too many of my clients have achieved professional success yet are searching for something more. They arrive at a point where they've finally "made it" only to discover it isn't enough, or they find themselves banging up against a glass ceiling that won't budge, or they're asking themselves almost daily what are they doing in that job.
So many of the things we thought we valued have come under greater scrutiny as a result of the pandemic. The impact of these past two years is not going away, and the way we used to do things is probably not coming back. What can we do? Ask Frank. What he might tell you is that this is a time to shift your life's direction and focus on what “really matters.”
Are you ready to make some life changes?
Read Frank's new book. Also, perhaps our program, Rethink Your Journey wth Andi Simon, could be of help to you. Maybe you want to join our group on Facebook, Rethink with Andi Simon. We are here to listen and help you become the best that you can be. Frank is as well. Don't wait, go find your joy!
Get to know Frank Schaeffer
A New York Times bestselling author of more than a dozen books, Frank Schaeffer is an acclaimed writer who overcame severe dyslexia, a survivor of both polio and an evangelical/fundamentalist childhood, a self-taught documentary and feature film director, an artist with a loyal following of international collectors, and a highly sought-after speaker. Frank has been a frequent guest on The Rachel Maddow Show, been interviewed by Terri Gross on NPR’s Fresh Air, and appeared on Oprah, as well as many other media outlets. To connect with Frank, you can reach him on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and his website, or email him at frankaschaeffer@aol.com.
Want more joy in your life? Here are some great places to start
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Blog: Is It Time To Rethink Where You Are And Where You Are Going?
- Podcast: Roshni Pandey—To Find Your Happiness, Assemble The Kind Of Life You Want
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to find your voice, even in the midst of change
What a powerful conversation I had with Leslie Rasmussen, award-winning author of the novel After Happily Ever After. It is a book that tells a story about a woman, perhaps you or me, who realizes that it is time for her to rethink the woman she used to be and wants to become. Sounds both familiar and intriguing, right? It is. While Leslie will tell you in our podcast all about her own journey, she also will shed light on how this novel emerged and why she has used it to give a voice to many women today facing the pain of change. Whether it is pandemic fatigue or watching the house empty as the kids head off to college, I know this is a conversation you will enjoy and a book you will want to read.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
An empty nester learning to love herself "one blunder at a time"
Inspiration for Leslie’s debut novel can be traced back to 2016. As she spent time around other mothers, she decided to write a fictionalized treatment of actual human scenarios from a woman’s perspective. From information gleaned in interviews with anonymous women who spoke candidly about their marriages, she connected the dots between their stories and created a protagonist who is the composite of many women, including herself.
About Leslie Rasmussen
After graduating with a bachelor’s in communications from UCLA, Leslie wrote television comedies, becoming a member of the Writers Guild of America West. She wrote for Gerald McRaney, Burt Reynolds, Roseanne Barr, Norm McDonald, Drew Carey and Ralph Macchio, as well as The Wild Thornberrys and Sweet Valley High. She then earned a master’s degree in nutrition and ran her own business for ten years. Most recently, her essays have been published in more than 20 online magazines, including Huffington Post. She is a member of The Alliance of Therapy Dogs and volunteers at her local animal shelter. You can connect with Leslie on LinkedIn and through her website.
Ready to start living a life you love? Here are some ideas to get you started
- Blog: 5 Ways You Can Find Happiness And Joy In These Turbulent Times
- Blog: Is It Time To Rethink Where You Are And Where You Are Going?
- Podcast: Melody Watts—How To Turn Adversity Into Opportunities
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how happy employees can drive your bottom line
Todd Wheeler heard me speak at a Vistage International talk I was giving on Blue Ocean Strategy®. While it was remote (I was in New York and he in Colorado), we hit it off. What we talk about today is his fresh approach to helping people see things that are all around them. We shared so many of the same ideas about what holds people back, their resistance to the unfamiliar and the new, and their attachment to things that no longer have much value. Todd thinks of himself as “The Architect.” I see him as both the architect and the builder, and when you listen in on our conversation, I bet you'll agree. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Helping people and their organizations think and act more creatively
One thing Todd and I immediately agreed upon is that there are important core values and stories that structure the foundational roots of an organization, and like it or not, we live those stories and they in turn reflect our values. When Todd works with a company, he looks at its very roots, the critical aspects that drive it forward or possibly hold it back. By examining what’s beneath the soil or behind the curtain, he not only knows what the result is going to look like but what it “should” look like.
Todd also believes that businesses prosper when employees are trusted members of a team, are treated like valuable individuals and assets, and are happy and thriving. When you have thriving, trusted people who care, he says, the collective creativity, production and value of the work delivers a tangible asset to all projects that ultimately determine the bottom line.
Meet Todd Wheeler
Todd counsels businesses on organizational policies and procedures, sculpting company culture and the structure that supports it. During his more than 40-year career, he has been an entrepreneur, a business coach, a yoga and mindfulness teacher, a consultant, a key note speaker, an investor, a partner, a business owner, a manager, a concierge trainer and a master coordinator. You can connect with Todd on LinkedIn or his website Management Insight.
Need to take a fresh look at your organization? Here's a great place to start
- Blog: Need To Change Your Organization's Culture? 6 Best Ways To Do It.
- Podcast: How Anthropology Helps People See Things With Fresh Eyes
- Podcast: Andrew Sykes—The Secrets to Employee Habit Creation
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
Hear how great execution is most often the key
to growth
At times I have the pleasure of meeting interesting people who bring their breadth of experiences to share with our audience. Jim Cornehlsen is just that type of person. We met through a networking group and found our interests so overlapping that we kept our conversations going. What did we talk about? Everything. It was a splendid conversation about how helping others achieve their goals through innovative ideas and expert execution is a life well-lived. Come join in the conversation and share your journey.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
In this podcast, our job is to help you “see, feel and think” in new ways so you can get “Off the Brink!”
What might that mean? Jim and I talk at length about his own personal journey while working in a variety of different industries. In P&L sales and marketing roles, he gained valuable experience in entrepreneurial development. At GE, he participated in a joint venture with Time Inc that became General Learning Corporation. At McGraw-Hill, he was part of a new media development group and was responsible for building subsidiary companies in Mexico, Spain and Canada. At CBS, he was head of international sales and part of a joint venture with CBS, IBM and AT&T that became Prodigy. He was also CEO of Las Americas, a Spanish-owned media company, and a director at Heidrick & Struggles, building a global media and information services group.
Now as a certified executive coach, Jim works with corporate leaders and sales teams, helping them succeed at proposals, relationships and alliances. He is also a professional facilitator with EOS, helping leadership teams improve alignment and drive growth, and a chair at Chief Executive Networks, working with peer-to-peer CEO groups as a facilitator and coach. You can connect with Jim on LinkedIn.
Want growth, need growth? Here's a great place to start
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Blog: Easy-to-Use Anthropology Toolkit to Grow Your Business
- Podcast: Michelle Turman—Positive Changes Needed To Keep Your Business Growing
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how even bad times can open the door to success
Melody Watts has an amazing story to share with you, but it was hardly a straight line. Rather, nine years ago she had a tsunami of tragedies confront her, pushing her in entirely new personal and professional directions. She was diagnosed with Lyme disease, was newly divorced, and lost her mother in a tragic car accident. Then something strange happened. While looking for a solution to her son’s chronic cough, she discovered doTERRA essential oils. The oils helped her son and equally important, opened her up to a new business. She joined doTERRA in 2013 and two years later was in the top 1% in sales. Talk about lemons into lemonade. Listen in and learn!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Turning her story into a way to help others
In our interview, Melody will tell you more about what she has learned and how she turned her challenges into opportunities, not just to build her own sales but those of thousands of other business owners. She will also describe how she helps entrepreneurs have purpose-driven businesses designed to bring the benefits of holistic healthcare to others. There are so many lessons here for all of us. Enjoy.
Meet Melody Watts
Health mentor, business strategist, alternative wellness expert and leadership speaker, Melody Watts is an independent wellness advocate for doTERRA essential oils. Working with men and women business owners across the world, she guides those who want a vibrant, higher quality of life so they can live their highest calling. You can connect with Melody on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, the doTERRA website, her personal website and blog, or Melody@melodywatts.net.
Got a big idea you want to get off the ground? Here's a good place to start
- Blog: How To Find The Capital That Will Fuel Your Big Idea
- Blog: Crushing It: Women Entrepreneurs Show You How To Build a Better Business
- Podcast: Nigel Parker—How To Turn A Great Idea Into A Successful Business
- Podcast: Amanda Zuckerman—How To Turn A Big Idea Into A Huge Blue Ocean Success!
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear what can take your idea from good to great!
Listen in today to a woman who had a client searching for an unmet need and who then helped him open up a new market, literally Blue Ocean Strategy® in action. Jennifer Brazer, my podcast guest, has a new book out that you really should read because it's a “how-to” guide for building a great business, Blue Ocean-style. (It actually happened to be her own business.) She explains how she went from a cubicle to a multi-million dollar bookkeeping service on the cloud, serving accounting firms across the country. And it all started when a client asked her how to manage the bookkeeping for his companies at an affordable price.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
From servicing local clients to running a huge business for companies everywhere
What Jennifer will tell you, however, is that her path to success taught her that there is no straight line from an idea to a business, much less to a successful one. As you listen to our conversation, think about your own business. Is it growing like you dreamed it could? Are you able to find new clients in this economically challenging time? Is it time to Rethink you and your business? If you are On the Brink, maybe listening to this podcast can help you get off the brink and “soar” again!
Meet Jennifer Brazer
Founder and CEO of Complete Controller, a leading national business services firm, Jennifer Brazer believes that all business operators should have access to the best, most up-to-date financial data to guide their critical decisions. Fueled by this kind of thinking, Complete Controller has become the turnkey Client Accounting Services (CAS) department for CPA firms across the country.
An avid supporter of entrepreneurs, especially women in business, Jennifer has built an 82,000-plus social media following for Complete Controller, and she is a frequent guest speaker to incubators, students and associations. She has served two terms on the Orange County Chapter Executive Board of the National Association of Women Business Owners and she also serves on the ADP Accountant National Advisory Board.
Jennifer is the author of From Cubicle to Cloud: How to Start and Scale a Virtual Professional Service Business, published in January of this year. To learn more about the tools used in her book or to get started with building your own cloud-based business model, check out her website series. You can connect with Jennifer on LinkedIn, Twitter or her company website Complete Controller.
Ready to find your Blue Ocean Strategy? To start, we recommend these three
- Blog: How To Survive These Scary Times: Blue Ocean Strategy®
- Blog: Blue Ocean Strategy® Can Create a New and Uncontested Market Space
- Podcast: Amanda Zuckerman—How To Turn A Big Idea Into A Huge Blue Ocean Success!
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to grow your big idea into a big success
Please meet Gina Paoloni. Gina found me through her search for speakers for her upcoming virtual summit, “The Untethered Entrepreneur.” She herself is an exciting entrepreneur who is building her business to help others grow theirs. Entrepreneurs, as you know, have an amazing way of seeing what is possible and then making it happen. Is that you? Do you have a clever idea to solve a problem in a new way? As Gina describes herself, she is often the lifeguard at the side of the pool watching her clients thrashing around trying to find a way out of a conundrum — and splashing each other at the same time. Over time, she has found an approach to help them, and you, reframe the problem and see solutions that might have been there all along. Do listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Tune in to Gina's virtual 21-day Summit beginning Sept. 15th
The title of Gina's FREE 3-week business-building coaching series gives you a good idea of what it's all about: The Untethered Entrepreneur: How to Develop the Mindset, Leadership Strategies and Toolsto Shatter Plateaus and Create the Business and Life Of Your Dreams! The video of each day's speaker will run all that day and will also be available for 48 hours afterward so you can join in at your convenience. My presentation is October 6th which you can access here.
Get to know Gina Paoloni
Gina Paoloni is the founder and CEO of Gina Paoloni Group, a consultancy which helps entrepreneurs and business leaders grow their companies through strategic planning, business development and executive coaching practices. Gina works with clients to discover their company’s unique vision and mission, then helps them unleash the full potential of their teams to drive extraordinary performance and results. You can connect with Gina on LinkedIn or her website Gina Paoloni Group.
Got a big idea but need a little help getting it off the ground? Start here:
- Blog: How to Convert a Great Idea into a Successful Innovation
- Blog: Crushing It: Women Entrepreneurs Show You How To Build a Better Business
- Podcast: Kim Shepherd: Finding The "Holes in the Cheese" To Build A Successful Business
Here's your opportunity to change the future of women in business
It starts TOMORROW! But you can still sign up now. Please join me at the Women Business Collaborative (WBC) Summit: Empowering Through Gender and Diversity, Sept. 21st and 22nd. A powerhouse lineup from the WBC Community will discuss topics ranging from building equity and diversity to increasing the number of women-led institutional funds, share how men are aligning with women to support the changing workplace, and demonstrate how women are succeeding in the technology sector. Details and registration here.
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how you can become a transformational leader!
In this week's podcast, I bring you Tony Martignetti: leadership coach, change agent and entrepreneur. In our conversation, Tony shares with us his approach to helping people and their organizations change. You can guess why we connected from the get-go. As a fellow culture change expert, I also help people and organizations change, either in the midst of a crisis or in order to avoid one. To find out where you are along your own leadership journey, try taking Tony's Leadership Assessment quiz. The answers might just surprise you! Enjoy.
Helping people live a life of inspired purpose
Tony loves helping people find clarity in their lives so that they can be energized, fully present and unstoppable. He believes that when leaders unlock their potential and lead from a place of inspired purpose, they impact and inspire everyone around them. Listen in, learn and share!
Meet Tony Martignetti
Before he became a Professional Certified Coach, Tony was a finance and strategy professional working with some of the world’s leading life sciences companies. Along his journey, he also managed small businesses and ran a financial consulting company. His passion for helping people was the catalyst for him to found Inspired Purpose Coaching which specializes in guiding leaders by clarifying their focus and equipping them and their teams with the tools to navigate through change. You can connect with Tony on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website, or you can email him at tony@inspiredpurposecoach.com.
Need or want to change but not sure where to start? Start here then give us a call
- Blog: Can People And Businesses Really, Truly Change? Yes! Here's How
- Blog: How To Thrive In Today's Crazy World? Make Change Your Friend
- Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It's Necessary!
Join the movement to change the future of women in business
Registrations are filling up fast, don't miss out! Please join me at the Women Business Collaborative (WBC) Summit: Empowering Through Gender and Diversity, Sept. 21st and 22nd. A powerhouse lineup from the WBC Community will discuss topics ranging from building equity and diversity to increasing the number of women-led institutional funds, share how men are aligning with women to support the changing workplace, and demonstrate how women are succeeding in the technology sector. Details and register here.
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to make time for strategic thinking and strategic growth
Richard Medcalf describes himself as "what you get if you were to put a McKinsey consultant, a slightly unorthodox pastor and an entrepreneur into a blender." Richard is an executive coach and leadership consultant to CEOs and their leadership teams. What we hope you'll take away from our discussion is how to build your own career and amplify your story. Sometimes you need a mentor or a coach, and sometimes you are the coach. Both are hard. (I know; I currently have six mentees and it is hard.) For solutions, Richard has a number of big ideas to help you sharpen your listening skills and do things now, not just someday. Listen in, not a minute to waste!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Richard really REALLY wanted to be on our podcast
So much so that he sent me an email so full of reasons why that it was impossible to say no. You might try me and send along your story as well: info@andisimon.com.
Richard's reasons, in his own words:
#1. I'm a fan. You had Nadia Bilchik on the show in February and I particularly enjoyed that episode. Nadia's point on being a "Go-giver just as much as a Go-getter" and her concrete tips were really interesting. Before going further I'd like to thank you for the time and energy you invest in putting this out into the world.
#2. Your audience will find value in the topic I have in mind. Many of your listeners will be leading teams or businesses and hitting the "ceiling of complexity" as daily operational demands suck all their time, leaving no space for strategic thinking. I deal with this issue all the time. There are four specific shifts leaders must make to overcome this issue, and they're not the usual recommendations. I'm sure we'd have a fun and insightful discussion with practical application for your listeners.
#3. You'll have a credible and engaging speaker. I'm the Founder of Xquadrant and I coach some of the world's top tech-sector CEOs and their executive teams.
Laughing with me?
It worked. I was curious and from his email came a great podcast to share with you. Enjoy.
More about Richard Medcalf
Richard's clients are elite performers who have already achieved incredible things but still have the ambition to boost their impact and influence and achieve something that seems impossible right now.
After earning a Masters Degree at Oxford University, Richard started his career in a premier strategy consultancy where he rose to become the youngest-ever partner. He then spent 11 years at tech giant Cisco, eventually being selected for an elite team to catalyse strategic partnerships and new business models. After qualifying as a senior leadership consultant and executive coach, he founded Xquadrant in 2017.
Richard has dual citizenship in the UK and France, lives near Paris, is married and is the proud father of two. He is also a licensed lay minister in the Anglican Church. You can connect with Richard on LinkedIn, Twitter, his website xquadrant.com or his podcast. To book Richard to speak, click here.
Could you use some help with strategic thinking? Start with these, then contact us
- Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy
- Podcast: Tony Guarnaccia—Can A Better Strategy Really Help Your Business Thrive?
- Podcast: Kim Bohr—Assessing Your Company’s Organization To Sustain Growth In Changing Times
Don't miss this opportunity to help change the future of women in business
Registrations are filling up fast, don't miss out! Please join me at the Women Business Collaborative (WBC) Summit: Empowering Through Gender and Diversity, Sept. 21st and 22nd. A powerhouse lineup from the WBC Community will discuss topics ranging from building equity and diversity to increasing the number of women-led institutional funds, share how men are aligning with women to support the changing workplace, and demonstrate how women are succeeding in the technology sector. Details and registration here.
Hear how to embrace change so you can soar!
As I have been working with women thought leaders and innovators, I've been struck by the number of them who are moving mountains during this pandemic and setting up new ways of life and work as we try to emerge from it. Kim Snyder and I met at Peter Winick’s Tuesday Thought Leader gatherings and enjoyed our off-line conversations. They were deep and she was full of fresh perspectives on what people are doing and how they are going to have to change as this new world we are in is changing, faster and faster. I know you will enjoy Kim as much as I do!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Not afraid of change, Kim helps clients not be afraid of it either
As you know, I believe the stories shared by our speakers about their own life journeys shed amazing insights into how people adapt to new opportunities, avoid boredom and continue to grow in non-linear directions. This certainly applies to Kim. Along these lines, three areas of particular interest to Kim and myself are:
- Why do smart people keep doing some of the same things over and over, even if this is not working for them?
- Why is the brain/mind so resistant to learning new ways to do things?
- Can a coach be of help? Or is it really just a nudge that we need?
Enjoy Kim’s talk. Then ask yourself three important questions:
- Am I stuck or stalled in my professional or personal life?
- Why?
- How can I see things in new ways and change?
If you are frustrated by your answers, you might want to contact us and see how we can help you make change your friend. You may know it already but our email is info@andisimon.com. Could you use a hand to get “off the brink” and “soar” like Kim Snyder has? Let's talk.
More about Kim Snyder
A former corporate executive turned entrepreneur, Kim D. Snyder is a business strategy expert and thought leader. As the founder of Online Marketing In A Box, Kim created the proprietary Grow M.O.R.E. Business Strategy to give business owners, leaders and executives the results they want and deserve in Marketing, Operations, Revenue and Efficiency. She is a certified virtual speaker, soon-to-be author and podcast host.
Before becoming a business owner, Kim spent 25+ years working with international Fortune 500 executives on business growth, strategy and transformation, from United Arab Emirates and the United Kingdom to Finland, Singapore and Malaysia.
You can connect with Kim on LinkedIn, Twitter, her website KimDSnyder.com or email her at kim@kimdsnyder.com.
Need or want to change? Start here, then give us a call
- Blog: Now That You Have Your Crisis, What Do You Change?
- Blog: How To Thrive In Today's Crazy World? Make Change Your Friend
- Podcast: Rita McGrath—Don't Run From Change, Embrace It!
You can have a hand in changing the future of women in business
Don't miss it! Make plans to attend the Women Business Collaborative (WBC) third Annual Summit: Empowering Through Gender and Diversity, Sept. 21st and 22nd. A powerhouse lineup from the WBC Community will discuss topics ranging from building equity and diversity to increasing the number of women-led institutional funds, share how men are aligning with women to support the changing workplace, and demonstrate how women are succeeding in the technology sector. Details and register here.
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how we can all have a positive impact on the world
We often find that as we move through our lives, we come upon people who instantly become our friends, although we have little understanding of why or how this happened. Denise Meagles, Indrani de Silva and Angelia Allen are just these kinds of friends. Denise and Indrani were introduced to me by Todd Cherches, whom I met through a thought leadership group. At a virtual meeting with Todd, he suggested they read my new book, Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business. They were so excited about the book that they put together gift boxes of Wax Buffalo candles and other goodies and sent them to a dozen women entrepreneurs, encouraging them to keep growing their businesses and seeking a great purpose. Then Angelia Allen joined them and they became a threesome, with all types of interesting ideas and careers. I feel lucky to have met them and even luckier to call them friends. I think you will too. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Three amazing women, three amazing stories
As you listen to Denise, Indrani and Angelia tell their stories, you are going to learn more about the way in which our lives are broadening today, through virtual friendships and unfamiliar experiences. I was in awe of what each of them are doing and how this could be of help to you, our audience.
Our conversation was in part about each of their personal journeys. As you know, the stories we share about ourselves are always very revealing about how we see that journey unfolding. I can give you some idea about their paths, but as you listen you will hear how women everywhere are working through mazes and over obstacles, moving toward their passion and purpose, trying to find the right jobs and careers to help them live the kind of lives that are important to them.
Each of these women is doing something meaningful today. We spoke at length about how they have discovered new areas for their focus and why they are so excited about the future and the possibilities that await them. They are three incredible women, full of energy and positivity, and it is contagious.
Denise is developing new businesses for entrepreneurs and helping them monetize their small ventures. She is also a sustainability guru and is finding ways to save our planet as she helps others build their dreams. Indrani is a sustainability specialist and is working with a team at the UN to create standardization for sustainability worldwide. Angelia has moved from the media world into diversity, equity and inclusion to help people work better together.
Listen in and think about how your own life’s journey is evolving and how the people you meet along the way are creating experiences that make you a far better person than you were before.
About Denise Meagles
Denise is a Supply Chain Strategist with more than 20 years' experience developing and implementing responsible sourcing supply chain programs which ensure operational efficiency, promote radical transparency, and achieve sustainable supply chain solutions in partnership with brands, retailers and manufacturers. Working with a diverse portfolio of buyers, suppliers and retailers, Denise leverages cutting-edge technology, Kaizen and Six Sigma methods, and sustainable manufacturing principles to shift mindsets and shape behaviors for positive impact. My favorite quote from Denise: "If the Golden Rule is to treat people as you want to be treated, the Platinum Rule is to treat people as they want to be treated. If you're truly a global citizen, you have to practice the Platinum Rule." Her point is that we all need to engage with others by seeing things from their perspective, not ours. You can contact Denise on LinkedIn or email her at dameagles@aol.com.
About Indrani da Silva
Indrani believes in the power of human potential. As a sustainability leader, she brings a systems thinking approach to strategic planning at the intersection of business and human rights. This enables her to build meaningful multi-stakeholder partnerships and community engagement initiatives that support systems that create positive change. With over 15 years’ experience in social sustainability, partnership development and human rights due diligence, Indrani is an expert in, among other things:
- Designing and implementing strategic partnerships across the supply chain for major companies such as Patagonia, Target, Eileen Fisher, The Children’s Place and West Elm.
- Evaluating social compliance against international standards with a focus on labor, human rights and responsible sourcing.
You can contact Indrani on LinkedIn, Twitter or email her at indrani.san@gmail.com.
About Angelia Allen
Angelia is Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Manager at Mering Global, responsible for developing company-wide diversity and inclusion programs, working with recruiting to develop talent pipelines, maximizing diversity metrics, and overseeing training and development programs. In addition, she is Co-Chief Executive Officer at D.I.M.E. (Diversity and Inclusion Manufacturing Excellence) which focuses on sustainability and support of minority-owned businesses. She also started the thriving podcast “Greenwood The Podcast.” You can contact Angelia on LinkedIn or email her at angeliaallen19@gmail.com.
Want more stories from women doing great things? Here are three
- Blog: How Brilliant Fearless Women Are Rewriting The Script In Hollywood
- Blog: No Women Coaches In The NBA? Yeah, Becky Hammon Changed That.
- Podcast: Johanna Zeilstra—Let's All Build Companies That Make Gender Fair
You can help change the future of women in business
I invite you to make plans to attend the Women Business Collaborative (WBC) third Annual Summit: Empowering Through Gender and Diversity, Sept. 21st and 22nd. A powerhouse lineup from the WBC Community will discuss topics ranging from building equity and diversity to increasing the number of women-led institutional funds, share how men are aligning with women to support the changing workplace, and demonstrate how women are succeeding in the technology sector. Details here. Register now by clicking here.
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to develop better leaders and better followers
Kris Baird and I have known each other for a long time. We have both been involved in the healthcare world for many years, and Kris has developed a new program which I am very interested in, particularly for my hospital systems clients who are realizing the need to develop their middle managers, their nurse managers, and their leaders. Plus, Kris and I direct several leadership academies for our clients. I am particularly excited to share this podcast with you because Kris has a brilliant way of developing managers and leaders, as well as those who work for them. She has so much to teach us; please listen in and then share with your teams!
“Be the Leader Nobody Wants to Leave—8 Transformational Skill-Builders for Busy Leaders”
This is Kris Baird's proprietary multi-media program, designed to be experienced partly online, partly with groups, and partly with one-on-one support. It is so well grounded in the way people learn that participants quickly develop new skills and apply them, and are able to recognize the value of this type of experiential learning, even the online component.
As you listen to our conversation, think about how you are developing your management and your leadership. To some degree, Kris’s program gets to the basic question of how to train and develop managers and those they manage. You'll hear how this program is a system, and that systems only work well if everybody understands what has to be done, how to be accountable to get it done, and how to keep themselves on task without managers having to use a carrot or a stick. It might sound simple but what Kris has created is very innovative. See what you think.
Meet Kris Baird
Kris Baird is a nationally recognized thought leader in patient experience, healthcare culture change and employee engagement. With more than 25 years' experience as a nurse and hospital executive, she is now a full-time consultant, author and speaker. As President and CEO of her firm Baird Group, her team helps transform the healthcare experience through culture assessment, mystery shopping, leadership development, employee engagement and customer service skill development. Her proprietary model, “Be the Leader Nobody Wants to Leave—8 Transformational Skill-Builders for Busy Leaders," is helping transform the healthcare experience, both for patients and the people who serve them. Feel free to contact Kris through LinkedIn, Twitter, her website Baird Group or her blog, or email her at kris@baird-group.com.
Kris's books:
- You Make the Call–Healthcare’s Mandate for Post-discharge Follow Up
- Reclaiming the Passion–Stories that Celebrate the Essence of Nursing
- Journaling to Reclaim the Passion–A Writing Guide for Nurses
- Customer Service in Healthcare: A Grassroots Approach to Creating a Culture of Service Excellence
Want a deeper dive into how to develop great leaders? Start here
- Blog: How Women in Leadership Roles Can Finally Change The Workplace
- Podcast: Jamie Candee—Leading Business And You To Success
- Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
Make your voice heard as we change the future of women in business
Make plans to attend the Women Business Collaborative (WBC) third Annual Summit: Empowering Through Gender and Diversity, Sept. 21st and 22nd. A powerhouse lineup from the WBC Community will discuss topics ranging from building equity and diversity to increasing the number of women-led institutional funds, share how men are aligning with women to support the changing workplace, and demonstrate how women are succeeding in the technology sector. Details here. Register now by clicking here!
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear what you can do to end hate and foster inclusivity
Deborah Levine is an amazing woman. How excited I was to share her story with our listeners. Many people today are talking about the need to build a more accepting, diverse and inclusive society, not just in their business but all around them in their communities. How do you do that? And how can you make the value of diversity become a cultural norm that is embraced? Listen to Deborah tell you about her own journey, and how that has caused her to focus on these themes in her personal and professional life. Here is your chance to learn from a true star in the growing movement to transform our society and our culture so we can build better lives together.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some of the topics Deborah and I discuss include:
- WOMEN LEADERS: Lessons from a Personal Journey. Deborah is deeply involved in the movement to help women overcome the obstacles in their pathways. Hear how her efforts to increase awareness of things like unconscious bias and the invisibility factor help women and the world we live in break through the hurdles and build a better society.
- How to FOSTER INCLUSION and UPEND HATE. We dig deep into ways people can counteract hate in their communities and in the workplace. Deborah suggests creating anti-hate councils that would use a 3-step sequential process to build skills that counteract hate. This process is especially relevant today, given the omnipresence of hate groups online, their ability to influence cultural norms, and their negative impact on diverse communities which are targeted by these groups.
More about Deborah Levine
Founder/Editor-in-Chief of the American Diversity Report, an award-winning author of 15 books, a Forbes Magazine Diversity And Inclusion Trailblazer, and a Designer of Cognitive Diversity using emotion metrics, neuro-communication and decision-optimization, Deborah Levine has an amazing story of a life dedicated to empowering women and giving them a voice.
Despite a near-death experience working in Uzbekistan, Deborah has 33 years' experience as a changemaker in challenging times. These efforts include creating a women’s sub-committee of the DuPage Interfaith Resource Network, serving on the all-female executive committee of the Oklahoma Say No to Hate Coalition, founding the Women’s Council of Diversity, and creating the Women GroundBreakers Storytelling public event for Women’s History Month. She is also highly revered for her innovative Matrix Model Management System, an interactive tool kit which increases emotional intelligence around race, ethnicity, gender, generation and religion.
A pioneer in the field of religious diversity, Deborah coordinated the 1990 National Workshop on Christians and Jews, spoke at the 100th anniversary of World Parliament of Religions, and served as consultant to the Union of American Hebrew Congregations. She has also served as executive director for Jewish Federations in Illinois and Tennessee and director of community relations for the Tulsa Jewish Federation after the Oklahoma City bombing. Her published books include Religious Diversity in our Schools, Religious Diversity at Work and When Hate Groups March Down Main Street: Engaging a Community Response.
Deborah's grandfather was one of Bermuda’s Founding 400 and she is part of the only Jewish family on the island for four generations. You can connect with Deborah through LinkedIn, Twitter, the American Diversity Report website and her website DeborahLevine.com, or you can email her at deborah@americandiversityreport.com.
To learn more about achieving equity in our society, check out these podcasts:
- Johanna Zeilstra—Let's All Build Companies That Make Gender Fair
- Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let’s Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen
- Andie Kramer and Al Harris—Bringing Gender Equity To The Workforce
Want to join the movement for equity in the workplace?
Plan to attend the Women Business Collaborative (WBC) third Annual Summit: Empowering Through Gender and Diversity, Sept. 21st and 22nd. A powerhouse lineup from the WBC Community will discuss topics ranging from building equity and diversity to increasing the number of women-led institutional funds, share how men are aligning with women to support the changing workplace, and demonstrate how women are succeeding in the technology sector. Details and registration here.
Hear how gender equity is really, finally, happening
What an exciting podcast with Johanna Zeilstra. She has had a remarkable career as a business strategist and leader in start-ups and global corporations. Our talk was about her current passion: helping move the needle on gender equity in organizations through her platform, Gender Fair. Take a look at its website to understand the full scope of the movement which she is pushing forward. Gender Fair, of which Johanna is CEO, uses data analytics to determine an organization’s progress toward gender equality and diversity. Johanna and I are both active on the Women Business Collaborative, whose mission is to make gender equity a permanent reality in business and in society. Do enjoy this podcast.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
How fair is your company? Can you change it?
On the Brink is designed to help our listeners “see, feel and think” in new ways. Have you thought about the companies you buy from or work in and how “gender fair” they are? Could you press them to change in order to reach the equity that women, women of color, and women of different backgrounds and sexual orientations deserve? You too can become an advocate for gender fairness. Listen in and let us know your thoughts.
Meet Johanna Zeilstra
Johanna is an established business strategist and an accomplished leader for both start-ups and global corporations. Over the past two decades, she has worked at PricewaterhouseCoopers, JPMorgan Chase, Delta Airlines, Sony Pictures Entertainment, Philips, Lucent, Disney, Bank of America and Occidental Petroleum. She is a coach to senior executive board members and high level teams, and has a passion for supporting and advancing professional women.
Prior to her involvement with Gender Fair, Johanna co-founded the Give Back Foundation, an innovative organization that makes it easy for individuals to contribute to the causes they care about most, and for companies to build authentic and impactful cause marketing, workplace giving and other social responsibility initiatives.
Johanna is originally from the Netherlands and was educated in Canada where she earned an undergraduate degree in Sociology and a Masters degree in Business Administration. She lives in Westchester, NY, where she runs the Women Entrepreneurs Network and serves on several boards, including CEO Forum, Harbor Island Conservancy, and Princeton Faith & Work Initiative.
You can connect with Johanna on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebookand the website Gender Fair, or email her at j.zeilstra@genderfair.com.
Want to play a role in creating equal position, pay and power for all business women? Plan to attend the Women Business Collaborative (WBC) third Annual Summit: Empowering Through Gender and Diversity.
Join us Sept. 21st and 22nd for a powerhouse lineup of engaging speakers and high profile guests discussing how best to create equal position, pay and power for all business women. Leaders from the WBC Community will discuss topics ranging from building equity and diversity to increasing the number of women-led institutional funds, share how men are aligning with women to support the changing workplace, and demonstrate how women are succeeding in the technology sector. Details here. Register now here!
For more on gender equity and how to achieve it, start with these:
- Blog: How Women in Leadership Roles Can Finally Change The Workplace
- Blog: It's Time to Change Workplace Culture So Women and Businesses Can Thrive
- Podcast: Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let’s Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to understand your customers' needs, then fulfill them
It is always so enlightening to learn from other consultants how they do their jobs and how I could enhance my own consulting practice—as well as help you do the same. I was interviewed by Michael Zipursky on his podcast and thought it important to reciprocate and bring his ideas to you, our listeners. Michael speaks about his own journey, and it is a journey. At times he was in foreign lands and unable to speak the language, but somehow figured out how to break through the communication barriers to engage with others and help them grow their businesses. You will enjoy his personal and his professional stories, as they are closely interwoven. Listen and share!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some of the things we talked about:
- Michael's company, Consulting Success, is the worldwide leader in coaching and training for entrepreneurial consultants.
- How Michael and his cousin Sam Zipursky, also known as the “Zipursky Cousins,” are entrepreneurs, consultants, authors and strategic coaches. Together, over the past 20 years they have helped thousands of clients around the globe increase their impact, earn a higher income, enjoy more freedom and flexibility, and live a lifestyle they love and are proud of.
- Why "becoming" is more important than arriving or “being.”
- How helping others is a purposeful mission that inspires you to do good while doing well for yourself.
Michael's life as a consultant, as I know so well, can teach us all a great deal about:
- The loneliness, and at times despair, of working hard every single day on building a new business with little financial results to show for the time and effort you're putting in.
- Feeling like an outsider, and not always knowing what to do next, as you “knock on doors” to grow your business.
- Imposter syndrome and second-guessing the value of your own expertise.
- Dealing with rejection while trying to keep a smile on your face.
- Neglecting family, friends and even personal health at times for the sake of the business.
- And yet, loving every minute of what you are doing. It is not about the destination. It is about the journey.
How Michael grew his own business and then applied this to his clients:
He and Sam hired mentors and consultants to help them with their consulting business, and what they discovered help them reinvent themselves. Things started to click and now they apply the best practices, systems, strategies and principles of success which they learned from those coaches and mentors. This fueled their success and has led to massive growth in business.
Listen in and learn from Michael and me about how to really understand your customers' needs. It is not what you are selling them. It is what they need from you. Then check out Michael’s website, Consulting Success, and take a look at many of his consultant teammates. You can connect with Michael on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website.
For a deeper dive into understanding customer needs, we recommend these:
- Blog: Entrepreneurs: Focus On Unmet Needs Through Visual Exploration
- Blog: Time to Make the Competition Irrelevant, Blue Ocean® Style!
- Podcast: Finding The "Holes in the Cheese" To Build A Successful Business
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to craft a strategy that delivers the results you want
Remember, my job is to help you get off the brink. How do I do that? By helping you see, feel and think in new ways. As a corporate anthropologist, I go looking for people who can help you do just that: see in new ways the things you may have done the same old way for a long time. Carol Poore is one of those people. We met through our publisher, Greenleaf Book Group, and I learned that she has a new book coming out on business strategy. Since I’m a Blue Ocean Strategist, I was particularly interested in understanding her perspective and how it could add new meaning to the way we at SAMC approach strategy, and how you do too. How do you approach your strategy, both your personal one and your business one? It’s important to understand that in order to get to your destination, whatever your goal might be. Do take a listen!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
What will you learn during this podcast?
A whole lot about how to customize your strategic planning process so that it turns into an extraordinary execution that delivers the results you anticipated. Carol's book, Strategic Impact : A Leader’s Three-Step Framework for the Customized Vital Strategic Plan, presents her proprietary method for customizing your organization’s strategic planning program. The key is her 3-step framework, applicable to any organization regardless of size, scale or structure, which enables you to:
•Declutter the typically complicated strategic planning process.
•Plan and lead a leadership workshop culminating in strategic goals.
•Craft a compelling written strategic plan which can be digitized and communicated through social media.
•Implement an effective tracking and communication system to monitor progress and ensure accountability.
•Engage employees, customers and key audiences in celebrating your organization’s strategic impact.
As you listen to this podcast, keep in mind that a strategy is really a simple story.
It’s a way to organize the data in your mind and in your organization into a simple approach to getting to a destination. I emphasize that it needs to be simple and easy to implement, otherwise it's just a concept that goes nowhere.
About Carol Poore
President of Poore & Associates Strategic Planning, Carol Poore delivers effective leadership and transformational results for a unique range of organizations and clients.
Her expertise and accomplishments include helping senior executives, emerging leaders and consultants develop a Vital Strategic Plan; expanding the internal capacity of large companies, small businesses, nonprofits and government organizations through her 3-step program; launching and growing a subsidiary company for Salt River Project, achieving $500 million in sales revenue within three years; developing the Parsons Center for Health and Wellness, a nonprofit community health center, raising more than $23 million in private and government grant funding; and tripling donations for Arizona State University’s West Campus. You can connect with Carol on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook and her website, or email her at cpoore5@cox.net.
Want to learn more about effective strategy? We recommend these:
- Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy
- Blog: Is Everyone Winning But You? Time For A Blue Ocean Strategy®!
- Podcast: Tony Guarnaccia—Can A Better Strategy Really Help Your Business Thrive?
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
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Hear how to get diverse employees to value their differences
It was a great pleasure to interview Laura Kriska for our podcast, On the Brink. Laura is an internationally recognizedexpert in cross-cultural relations. She and I have a lot in common. As a corporate anthropologist, I too often work with organizations where the old culture and the new are in conflict, where Boomers and Millennials speak different dialects of English and have distinctly different habits, beliefs and ways of doing things. Add in the business environment around them, and today's companies have too little knowledge about how to “see, feel and think” in new ways and most importantly, how to use those differences to build better companies. Laura's wisdom is so needed right now — I know you will learn so much from her!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some of the topics we discussed:
- While business leaders are all for diversity, inclusion and equity, actually doing those three things is harder than they thought.
- Understanding why that is so difficult is challenging in its own right.
- The biggest problem every leader faces is developing approaches to enable his/her employees to embrace differences and not allow their brains to shun them.
There is hope!
Laura’s new book, The Business of We: The Proven Three-Step Process for Closing the Gap Between Us and Them in Your Workplace, is an excellent approach to doing just that — bridging the cultural and generational gap and enabling people
to better understand each other.
Her book will tell you more about:
- How to effectively repair division without spending a dime.
- How to recognize warning signs of Us vs. Them gaps, from derogatory comments about a specific group to unspoken divisions reflected by where people sit or hang out.
- How to proactively create opportunities for individuals to discover existing common factors and sponsor experiences that bring together diverse employees and create unity within organizations.
About Laura Kriska
Laura is an internationally recognized expert and leading consultant on cross-cultural relations with more than 30 years' experience bridging gaps in diverse workplaces. She has worked with Fortune 500 companies on four continents, helping thousands of business leaders and professionals build trust across Us vs. Them differences based on nationality, ethnicity, race, religion, age or any factor of identity.
Born in Tokyo to missionary parents, Laura grew up with a fascination for different cultures and a strong attachment to Japan. After receiving her BA in Japanese Studies from Denison University, she began her career in Japan as the first American woman to work in Honda Motor Company’s Tokyo headquarters, as an assistant to a senior executive. This experience is the basis of her first book, The Accidental Office Lady.
A sought-out lecturer and a TEDx speaker, Laura is widely considered an authority on inclusion and cultural integration. She regularly speaks to professional and educational groups, and conducts bilingual and cross- cultural training sessions for a wide array of clients. In addition, Laura earned a brown belt in judo from the Kodokan Institute in Tokyo. You can connect with Laura on LinkedIn, Twitter or her website, We-Building.
Need to bring people together in your organization? Here's a start
- Blog: Need To Change Your Organization's Culture? 6 Best Ways To Do It.
- Blog: Developing a Positive Culture Where People and Performance Thrive
- Podcast: Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let’s Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear why brand storytelling is the key to business success
This was a totally fantastic interview with Lisa Staff and Deevo Tindall. I had been on their podcast, Mind, Body, Business, and so enjoyed myself that I wanted to share them with you, our listeners. Lisa and Deevo are two terrific individuals who focus on connecting and collaborating. They also want to help you better deliver your messaging to build your brand with the right mix of imagery and copy. I think they are amazing, and I know you will too.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Bringing their creative genius to their clients, Lisa and Deevo help them see things through that fresh lens we always talk about
In our podcast, we discuss everything from their personal journeys to their launching their business, Sprout Connectors, whose mission is to help small companies and entrepreneurs brand their businesses. We also talked about how they too as entrepreneurs had to bootstrap their fledgling company until they turned it into a success, having sold two earlier businesses for six figures. Repeatedly named the Top 3 Visual Storytellers in the South, Lisa and Deevo tell you a great story that is as much a joy to watch as it is to listen to. You might want to engage them as speakers at your next event!
About Lisa Staff
A highly in-demand fashion, lifestyle and wedding photographer, Lisa Staff is also content creator extraordinaire. Based in Hilton Head Island, SC, she is widely known for capturing the magical beauty of simplicity and authenticity. Contact Lisa, see her portfolio and learn more about her philosophy and techniques on her website LisaStaffPhoto.com, her blog and Instagram.
About Deevo Tindall
Although he was at one time a corporate Project Manager, Deevo Tindall is now owner of Fusion Photography & Video, one of the premier photography studios in Charlotte, NC. What sets him apart is an innate ability to connect with his subjects and draw out their true personality with his lens. You can connect with Deevo on LinkedIn, his website Fusion Photography & Video, Instagram, Twitter or Pinterest.
I also invite you to visit Lisa and Deevo's joint website Sproutconnectors.com and their podcast Mind, Body, Business.
Learn more about how storytelling can dramatically build your business
- Blog: How Storytelling Can Transform Your Culture And Energize Your Team
- Podcast: Karen Dietz—Your Story Is Your Secret to Amazing Success
- Podcast: Sarah Wilson—See How Great PR Can Build A Better Story For YOU
- Podcast: Hamilton Perkins—An Inspiring Entrepreneurial Success Story
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn why employee well-being is key to a company's success
Mari Ryan and I met by chance through Peter Winick’s Thought Leadership roundtables and became immediate colleagues and virtual friends. She brings to you her inspiring passion for helping organizations and the folks in them become healthier. This is so important, today and really always. What Mari has developed is a strategic approach to help people not just wish to build healthier lives and better organizations, but to actually achieve remarkable results. We all need more well-being in our lives and workplaces. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Some of the topics we discussed:
- Wellness programs are not new in the workplace.
- Is wellness the same as well-being?
- Why should employers care about employee well-being?
- Whether you are an employer or an employee, you should know that personal well-being correlates with employee engagement and productivity.
It's no surprise that you do better when you feel better
As you listen to our conversation, I invite you to think about the characteristics of a thriving organization—its purpose and not just its profits. Also think about how business leaders and managers can support employee well-being and why they should. Mari, in her award-winning book, The Thriving Hive: How People-Centric Workplaces Ignite Engagement and Fuel Results, explains all this by using a beehive metaphor to illustrate how to build a healthier company.
I should add that Mari and I did this podcast when the pandemic was still very serious. Although the worst of it hopefully is behind us now, the pandemic nonetheless has had a profound impact on the workplace. Between remote work, the lack of socializing, the multiple new roles people had to learn how to do in a moment of fast-change, and all the uncertainty that came with the crisis, well-being was in shock. In fact, research is beginning to reveal how much our mental and physical health were impacted by these major social and business transformations—along with all the illness caused from the virus itself.
This might be a great time for you to rethink your own well-being and that of those around you, whether in the workplace or in your community. Let's help each other show the kind of caring and support that leads to better well-being for everyone.
About Mari Ryan
Mari is CEO and founder of Advancing Wellness. She is also an award-winning author, speaker and workplace well-being strategist. Her specialty is creating healthier businesses and impacting the lives of employees in a wide range of industries. You can connect with Mari on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube or her website AdvancingWellness.
Want to learn more about how to build better, healthier workplaces? Start here
- Blog: 3 Ways A Female CEO Built A Successful Business With A Culture of Collaboration
- Podcast: Richard Sheridan—Joy in the Workplace
- Podcast: Marcella Bremer—Build a Better Business With an Amazing, Positive Culture
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to turn your great idea into a successful business!
This was a terrific podcast conversation with Carrie Peele. Her life’s journey has been one of twists and turns, testing her smarts and her ingenuity. A serial business owner, she started a luxury transportation company on three credit cards in 1989 and built the largest woman-owned car service in the Carolinas. She sold the company in 2014 and started The File Depot, a document storage, scanning and shredding company. As a successful businesswoman, her story is amazing. But what Carrie learned was how to help other women take ideas and turn them into successful businesses. Tune in, learn and share!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Carrie's advice: Talk to people, and keep talking to them
Carrie started the Triangle Ladies Power Luncheon in 2010, a monthly white glove luncheon that supports women in business. Her motto is to have lunch with someone every day! Recently she formed a new company, Jade Lending, and brought in investors to provide capital to help women finance their businesses. As you listen to our podcast, you will learn about how a woman can really take her own inspiration and experiences and help others succeed. This was just such a charming conversation, and I can’t wait to share it.
About Carrie Peele
A serial entrepreneur, Carrie is founder and CEO of Mako Documents, which manages a broad range of health information from medical records to radiology films. Carrie’s other passion is helping women-owned businesses. This includes founding and facilitating non-profits and networking opportunities, such as the Triangle Ladies Power Lunch, which spotlights women superstars in business.
Carrie has been named Top Woman in Business, along with many other accolades. She resides in Raleigh, NC with her husband David and two daughters. You can connect with Carrie on LinkedIn or makodocs.com, or email her at carrie@cpeelegroup.com.
Want more stories about women who became great successes? Start with these
- Blog: How Brilliant Fearless Women Are Rewriting The Script In Hollywood
- Podcast: Finding The "Holes in the Cheese" To Build A Successful Business! Meet Kim Shepherd
- Podcast: Babette Ballinger—How Does A Woman Tackle The Fashion Industry? Head On
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to find your voice and unleash your power
In this podcast I had the pleasure of speaking with Kami Guildner. You will enjoy our conversation as much as I did. Kami believes that women have a strong voice and need to know how to use it. She is a storyteller, as we all are, but does it with passion and purpose. She is also a business coach for women. And, we delightfully have in common our love for horses. Kami tells the story of how her entrepreneurial journey came about through the “breath of a horse." This magical epiphany moment led her to discover her purpose of leading changemaker women to give voice to their most important messages and create a ripple effect of worldly impact. Enjoy!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Weaving soulful inspiration into mindful business strategies to help her clients grow their businesses
With decades of leadership, marketing, strategic planning and business growth expertise, Kami guides her clients to master their marketing, money, and mindset. Kami’s soulful spirit leads her clients to unleash their magical manifestant powers and live out loud fueled with vitality and courage.
Kami is the founder of Extraordinary Women Radio, a podcast featuring wildly successful women making an impact on the world. She is also the author of Firedancer: Your Spiral Journey to a Life of Passion and Purpose and was named one of the 2020 Twenty-Five Most Powerful Women in Business by the Colorado Women’s Chamber of Commerce.
You can connect with Kami through LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and her website, or email her at kguildner@gmail.com.
Want more stories about women refusing to be held back? Here's three
- Blog: It’s A New Day!!! Finally, Women Have A Seat At The Table
- Podcast: Stephanie Breedlove—How Women Entrepreneurs Can Think Bigger, Build Sustainable Businesses, and Change the World
- Podcast: Janine Firpo—It's Time To Help Women Invest For Sustainable Growth
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to attract and retain the best staff for your business
In this podcast, I was so excited to speak with Kip Wright about the work he has been doing to help corporations and businesses find the right talent and retain them with great performance. Having been an executive in banking and healthcare organizations, I remember far too well the pain of attracting and retaining the right staff. If we went too far afield to find new talent, they often could not fit into the existing culture — even when we wanted to change that culture. If we found the "right" staff, we had to develop and retain them. It is not easy to run a business. Does this speak to you? Lots to learn here from Kit!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
How does your business compare with others on diversity?
One of the tools Kip has developed is a data system that allows a company to compare its diversity with that of others in their industry. The dashboard is interactive and highly impactful. You can enter your own company's data, see how it meshes with others, better understand the trends, and determine where you need to focus.
Another idea of Kit's which I think is so creative is his technology training program for IT professionals, which enables him to provide his clients with great talent.
We all must change, not just float along
As you listen to Kip, you are going to ask yourself what you can do to solve a problem, not just complain about it. While the times are changing, it is a great time to make change your friend.
About Kip Wright
As President and CEO of Genuent, a North American-based IT staffing and solutions provider, Kip oversees all aspects of his business. A staffing industry veteran, he has spent over 20 years working in all facets of the staffing sector: commercial, professional, recruitment process outsourcing, and contingent workforce management. His past roles have included executive management positions with ManpowerGroup, TAPFIN, COMSYS, Metamor Worldwide, Corestaff, BSG Consulting and Ernst & Young. You can connect with Kip on LinkedIn or email him at kipwright2112@gmail.com.
Want tips for attracting and retaining great talent? Here's a start
- Blog: Entrepreneurs, Be Smart and Pick the Right People to Help You Grow
- Blog: Developing a Positive Culture Where People and Performance Thrive
- Podcast: Ask Andi—Finding and Keeping Great Employees
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to turn a jerk boss into someone you want to follow!
Have you ever had an amazing boss or manager who was a leader in many ways yet always seemed to be a “jerk”? If so, you might want to read “Managing Brilliant Jerks: How Organizations and Coaches Can Transform Difficult Leaders into Powerful Visionaries” by Dr. Katrina Burrus, today's podcast guest. A wonderful speaker, author and executive coach, Katrina and I were kindred spirits as we discussed the challenges we have all experienced when having to work for an individual who is terrific in so many ways but fails terribly when leading others. The big question is always, “Can you take that jerk and turn him/her into a star?” Yes! Learn how.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Often people do not know how they impact others, and why that impact matters
What Katrina has learned coaching executives, high-potential emerging leaders and even middle managers is that people can only lead if others will follow them. Their styles can be engaging or irritating, embracing or terrifying, but without followers, they accomplish little. So how do we help make the difficult leader into one who everyone wants to follow?
In our podcast, Katrina clarifies for you the complex processes at work in the mind of an abrasive leader—and empowers you to forge a productive and cooperative relationship with the jerks you encounter in your own professional life.
Meet Katrina Burrus
Katrina Burrus, PhD, MCC, holds a PhD in human and organizational development from Fielding Graduate University and a Masters in global management from Thunderbird School of Global Management. As the first International Coaching Federation's Master Certified Coach in Switzerland, Katrina has worked for 20 years as an executive coach with companies in Europe, USA, Asia and the Middle East. She is also an international keynote speaker, consultant, author of three books, and a TV and podcast host. You can connect with Katrina on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, her website or her podcast.
Want to learn more about how to handle a difficult boss? Start with these
- Blog: 6 Management Traits That Successful Leaders Share
- Blog: To Be A More Effective Business Leader, Try Being More Likeable
- Podcast: Danielle Grant—Authentic, Ethical, Caring And More Effective Leadership
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to turn your big idea into a profitable business!
Veronica Sagastume was a wonderful woman to interview. She represents all that we love about women who can take an idea and turn it into a great innovation and a successful business. In our podcast, Veronica helps you think about yourself, what you are doing, and how you can convert your big idea into a bold new venture. What is also of great interest to us is how someone can see opportunities and turn them into realities. This is never easy. Sometimes, however, you need a good role model, and Veronica will tell you about hers. She knew quite quickly that she liked the rough and tumble world of business and could play with everyone, from bosses to investors to clients and suppliers. Listen to how she did it and how you can too. Enjoy.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
About Veronica Sagastume
Veronica has built a thriving consulting and coaching business and was excited to share her journey with me. An ex-corporate CFO, she describes how she turned her passion into a great business by helping accounting, bookkeeping and tax business owners create content to increase their visibility on social media and grow their business online.
Specializing in helping clients develop strong content marketing strategies to attract and connect with customers, Veronica says that her primary goal is to increase their online visibility, impact and bottom line. Want to know more? Check out her website and podcast or email her at veronica@fortifiedaccounting.com. You can also connect with her on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter.
Ready to take your big and run with it? Here are some important tips:
- Blog: How to Convert a Great Idea into a Successful Innovation
- Blog: What This Successful Entrepreneur Has Learned In Business
- Podcast: Claus Raasted—Now Is The Time To Turn Your Big Ideas Into Great Innovations!
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to see your way forward to your best future!
I met Alain Guillot when he interviewed me for his podcast and I was totally intrigued by his story. As an anthropologist who studied immigrants who relocated from Greece to New York, I remain endlessly fascinated by the ability of people to completely change their lives to thrive in a foreign environment. Alain and I spoke at length about what he himself did to thrive, and how he eventually became a full-time blogger and podcaster. But it was never easy or completely evident that his calling was to become a story merchant, as he calls himself. Listen in and be moved!
Watch and listen to our conversation here
"We all have the tools to achieve greatness, all we need is more self-confidence."
-Alain Guillot
Alain immigrated to Canada from a poor country in South America. As he tells it, he had to work as a janitor, a busboy and a food server to afford school. His first job as an insurance salesperson was short-lived (he was never much of a salesperson) and after that, he became a dance school owner, a day trader, an Airbnb host, an Uber driver, a photographer, and now a blogger and podcaster.
On his podcast, Alain interviews experts, authors and speakers in the personal finance and personal development arena. As he tells it: “I want to extract the techniques of successful people and share those techniques with you.”
During our On The Brink podcast, we spent our time together talking about his life journey and wondering how it might help you realize how to get off the brink and find a way to “soar” yourself. John Seely Brown famously said, “The way forward is all around you, if only you can see it.” Can you see your way forward?
About Alain Guillot
Based in Montreal, Canada, Alain is a full-time blogger, podcaster, and YouTuber. He writes and hosts podcasts about personal finance, entrepreneurship and personal development. To connect with Alain, find him on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website or email him at g_invest_now@yahoo.com.
Learn what makes so many business people successful and effective
- Blog: What This Successful Entrepreneur Has Learned In Business
- Blog: 6 Management Traits That Successful Leaders Share
- Podcast: Jamie Candee—Proving That Women Can Lead Businesses To Success
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to use social media to create a winning personal brand!
Cass McCrory and I had one of those long, luscious conversations about what matters to each of us, and both of us, which is helping women become the best that they can be. Cass's podcast, Real Women in Business, is focused on connecting women with the inspiring stories of other women who, like them, are building great lives in business. Yet what she has found is that many of these women are unhappy. In research we did for our new program, Rethink Your Journey With Andi Simon, we found the same: 66% of the women surveyed were dissatisfied with their lives but not sure how to change them. From Cass's perspective, the process is not that complicated. Listen in to hear her thoughts about how you can positively change the direction of your life!
Watch and hear our conversation here
Cass's podcast is for women seeking to be inspired by women like themselves
Cass asks her podcast guests the following questions:
- How do you lead a full life while leading in business? Does it feel good?
- How did you get here?
- What do you want to do next?
- What have you learned along the way?
She also helps women create their own personal brands. An expert in LinkedIn marketing, she advises clients on how to use social media for personal and professional success and exposure.
About Cass McCrory
Cass strongly believes that having a personal brand is crucial for both you and your organization. It not only enables you to connect professionally, it positions you for your next step (inside or beyond your existing company), establishing your expertise and current availability to the network you're growing.
With more than a dozen years' experience in marketing, business strategy and project management, Cass has gone from working for large enterprises to a small super trendy agency to founding her own business, Capra Strategy. You can connect with Cass through LinkedIn, her website Capra Strategy and her Real Women in Business podcast.
Ready to capitalize on the power of social media to create your brand? Start here
- JD Gershbein—How Is LinkedIn Your New World For Building Networks?
- Sarah Wilson—See How Great PR Can Build A Better Story For YOU
- Why Social Media Is Crucial To Your Marketing Strategy
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to cast off your baggage and live your dreams!
This was an interesting interview with Mia Hewett. Every interview is interesting. But some of them take us in places that are unexpected. Mia’s was particularly unexpected. She has a new book out called "Meant For More: Stop Secretly Struggling and Become a Force to Be Reckoned With." It’s an incredible story of a woman’s journey of discovery and awakening. Mia is very concerned about helping people, women in particular, create their own reality...really looking in the mirror and seeing who they are. Not listening to old stories or destructive myths. Reminds me of my book, "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business." Don't wait, take a listen!
Watch our conversation here
Create your own reality by accessing your own power, shifting your self-image and letting go of the misconceptions and misunderstandings
A wonderful purpose that Mia and I share is taking what we’ve learned and using it to help others so they can become the best that they can be. That involves focusing on how we live our story, how we take our dreams and turn them into a reality. But, our story often includes stumbling blocks, making us prisoners in own minds. The good news is that we can collaborate with our mind and change that story to live lives that are happy and fullfilled.
Here’s what you’ll learn from our podcast:
- The truth about having weaknesses (and why they don’t determine your success)
- How to create unshakable self-esteem with the 3 Human Thrivers
- How you HAVE experienced trauma, even if you never had a near-death experience or were not physically abused (and how it’s affecting your reality in a huge way)
- Why problems don’t really exist (and the two reasons you still struggle)
- The biggest misconception you have about the current version of yourself
About Mia Hewett
Two of Mia's sayings that I really love are: "No one should ever feel that their dreams are out of reach" and "Life is Too Short Not to Reach Your Potential." So how does she apply these to her own mission in life? By helping others no longer be stopped by fear; to be free of overthinking, anxiety and exhaustion; to be the leader you were born to be; and to live the life you are meant for so you can succeed in business and in life. She helps us heal the emotional side of ourselves so we can get unstuck and move forward in life. You can connect with Mia through LinkedIn and her website.
Feel it is time to let go of what is holding you back? Here's a place to start
- Move Over Boys, Smart Capable Women Are Refusing To Be Held Back
- Kim Spencer—Isn't It Time To Become The Princess You Always Wanted To Be?
- Sam Radocchia—Smashing The Myth That Women Don't Belong In IT
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how you can become a more dynamic, effective leader
Alain Hunkins is the author of a new book, "Cracking the Leadership Code: Three Secrets
to Building Strong Leaders," which offers a very impactful way to develop leaders. As you know, I direct two leadership academies for two clients. And what I’ve learned over the years is that leaders need to lead to the right places and followers need to know what work they need to do to get there. As you'll hear in our podcast, it’s not that easy. Alain and I talk about recognizing the bad habits inherited from previous generations of leaders and why “old-school” leaders flounder in the “new-school” world. Please listen, learn and share.
Watch and hear our conversation here
Are people hungry for a new type of leader in the unrest associated with the pandemic?
What type? Do they even know? Typically, the culture of an organization is very comfortable keeping its employees in the world that they have always known. Leaders in those types of organizations have honed their skills over the years so that on the surface, their style seems to work.
Then a crisis hits, or new leadership arrives, or major clients leave. What happens? Everything, including leadership, has to shift. But to what? Listen to our conversation and start thinking about your leadership style and those around you with a different perspective, a fresh lens. As I always say, it is time to make change your friend.
About Alain Hunkins
A sought-after keynote speaker, lecturer, facilitator and coach, Alain Hunkins is a leadership expert who connects the science of high performance with the performing art of leadership. Leaders trust him to help unlock their potential and expand their influence, leading to superior results, increased engagement, higher levels of retention, and greater organizational and personal satisfaction. He has a gift for translating complex concepts from psychology, neuroscience and organizational behavior into simple, practical tools that can be applied on the job.
Over the course of his 20+ year career, Alain has worked with tens of thousands of leaders in over 25 countries, and served clients in all industries, including 42 Fortune 100 companies. He delivers dynamic keynotes, seminars, and workshops covering a variety of leadership topics including communication, teambuilding, conflict management, peak performance, motivation and change.
As well as his new book, "Cracking the Leadership Code: Three Secrets to Building Strong Leaders," Alain has authored over 400 articles, has been published in numerous business publications, and is a certified co-leader for ManKind Project International, a non-profit whose mission is to help men lead lives of service to their families, communities, and workplaces. He is currently based in Northampton, MA with his wife and two children.
You can contact Alain through LinkedIn, his website and his blog, or email him at alain@alainhunkins.com.
Ready to learn how to be a better leader
- 5 Attributes of Business Leaders Who Drive Innovation
- Are You Becoming a More Vulnerable Leader?
- Kimberly Davis—Leading Change: Are You A Brave Leader?
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how one woman made her mark in an industry of men.
Babette Ballinger holds a special place in our hearts, and in my new book, "Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business." As a fashion designer and owner of her own apparel sales firm, Babette had to constantly re-invent herself, learn how to run a business, and deal with the challenges of sustaining successful partnerships with men. Working with almost every major retailer in the country as well as many smaller ones, she quickly developed the ability to compromise and navigate complicated and diverse rules and regulations. When I think of trailblazing women who opened the door for so many others, I think of Babette. Listen in!
You can watch our interview here
The fascinating life of Babette Ballinger
Babette Ballinger grew up in Memphis, TN and graduated from Washington University in St. Louis (as did my husband Andy) with a BFA. After moving to New York City where she had a great time but did not find fame and fortune, she moved to Los Angeles and became a successful fashion designer and merchandiser in the heyday of color-coordinated pant suits and nylon printed shirts. Returning to New York, she founded and ran her own garment manufacturing company for more than 25 years. As she will tell you, critical to her success was understanding production, deadlines and cost effectiveness, as she had to design, produce and sell her entire product.
She married her husband, Raymond Ballinger, in 1982 and they raised two sons and a daughter. Together, she and Raymond founded and ran The Rhinebeck Summer Theatre.
Now living in Bloomington, Indiana, Babette is continuing her participation in theatre and art. She is a member of the Bloomington Water Color Society and a founding member of Upland Plein-Aire Group and IPAPA. She also currently serves on the Bloomington Art Commission.
A woman of many talents and interests, Babette mentors individuals in business through Bloomington SCORE, has published a memoir of the Ballinger family called "Earthbound," and has just completed a memoire. She is also an amateur genealogist and has helped friends find their biological families.
You can connect with Babette on LinkedIn or email her at aknita@aol.com.
A few more stories of barrier-breaking women achieving great things
- These Women Are Refusing To Let Anything Hold Them Back
- Kamala Harris: Boldly Smashing One Of The Highest, Hardest Glass Ceilings
- Edie Fraser—How to Create a More Equitable World for Women in Business, Together?
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how women leaders are finally coming into their own
There are times when very special people come into our lives. If you believe in serendipity, as I do, you realize that they are here for a purpose. We often are not sure what that purpose is, but there is something almost magical in meeting them, working with them, and just having them enter your orbit. Edie did a lovely review of my new book, Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business, and from there our friendship grew. Now, Women Business Collaborative is working with Rethink and Catalyzing the Future to host a global virtual summit on May 13, 2021 called Catalyzing the Future: Rethinking Women’s Leadership in Business. You can register here.
You can watch our interview here
We are stronger and go farther together
Edie Fraser was introduced to me by a client/colleague/friend, Lynne Born. Edie, Lynne and others had realized that momentum moving women forward was coming slowly, almost at a snail's pace. All of the organizations centered around women's advances in business were well-intended and hard-working, but were often competing with each other for position and progress.
Instead, Edie decided that what was needed was to combine all of these great organizations into one collaboration where together, they could turn momentum into a movement that would propel women into C-suites, into boardrooms, into pay equity and gender equality, and enable women entrepreneurs to gain a fair share of the VC capital.
Listen to our conversation about how Edie’s life was a journey on its way to catapult herself and others into this new movement.
But also listen to how working together, recognizing the achievements of each of these organizations and each other, can propel change in business, and in society, in ways that none of us can do on our own.
About Edie Fraser
Currently CEO of Women Business Collaborative whose mission is to accelerate equal position, pay and power for all businesswomen, Edie previously spent 14 years as Managing Director of Diversified Search and Founder and CEO of STEMconnector® and Million Women Mentors®. She also founded and served as CEO of Public Affairs Group working with 250 Fortune companies, advancing best practice programs focused on women and diversity leadership.
A consummate entrepreneur, Edie has built three companies and launched several movements. In addition, she has received 56 major leadership awards, including the Mosaic Woman Award and Lifetime Achievement Award from Diversity Woman Magazine. She has served on numerous boards, including the national board of SCORE, and has been inducted into the Enterprising Women Hall of Fame. She also was the first woman to serve as Chairman of the World Affairs Council of DC.
Edie is the author of several books, including Do Your Giving While You Are Living and Risk to Riches: Women and Entrepreneurship in America.
You can connect with Edie on LinkedIn or Twitter or email her at Edie@WBCollaborative.org
Learn more about what women can accomplish when working together
- How Women in Leadership Roles Can Finally Change The Workplace
- Tracy Higginbotham—Now Is The Time For Women To Help Women Build Better Businesses
- Liz Musch—What Can A Successful Woman Teach Other Women? How To Succeed
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Need to grow your business, fast? Hear how!
Bruce Eckfeldt roams in the same territories that I do, but his background and experience are rather different. He was an architect until he realized that learning how to be an architect is very different from being one. So he skipped over into business and never looked back. In our conversation today, we dig deep into what he learned as a CEO in an Inc. 500 company, building his own company, and then selling it and pivoting to redesign his career. Now he helps others “soar." Do you have a business you want to grow? Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation
Bruce’s passion lies in the architecture of business strategy and development
Our talk today is about growth. Growth demands strategic focus, clear accountability, ongoing communication, cultural improvement, team alignment and cash flow optimization, along with other core components of a thriving business. Bruce and I discuss huddles, Master Minds and strategy methodologies that help you and your team get focused and stay on it.
About Bruce Eckfeldt
Bruce Eckfeldt is a consultant, coach, author and highly sought-after speaker on organizational development and performance management. Originally an architect, he then became a pioneer in the use of computer-aided design and 3D modeling, later transitioning into software design and development.
Seeing the need for a faster-paced, more innovative approach to technology development, Bruce was an early adopter of Extreme Programming (an early Agile/Lean software methodology), founding Cyrus Innovation in 2003, one of the first Agile/Lean development consulting firms.
After more than a decade of developing products and coaching companies adopting Agile/Lean practices, Bruce sold Cyrus in 2014 to focus on broader organizational development initiatives. He served as interim CEO, COO and other executive roles across a number of different high-tech and professional service companies, leading these companies through periods of high growth and leadership transition. Now he is a strategic coach to organizations of all sizes seeking rapid growth.
You can connect with Bruce at LinkedIn, Twitter and his website. You can also email him at bruce@eckfeldt.com.
Need to grow, fast? These are a good first step
- Blog: Best Practices to Scale Your Business for Growth
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Podcast: Assessing Your Company’s Organization To Sustain Growth In Changing Times
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how embracing the unfamiliar unlocks your best ideas!
Often when I am looking for interesting people to bring to our podcast listeners, I am introduced to unexpectedly fascinating folks like Claus Raasted. An innovation strategist, Claus has been pushing the limits of the possible for 20 years. He is Director at The College of Extraordinary Experiences, a Coach at McKinsey & Company, and posts a daily innovation keynote on his YouTube channel. He is also a prolific author with 30 books to his name, and has just finished "The Innovation Cycle." Our discussion was about how to help people “see, feel and think” in new ways, which you know is my own passion and purpose. For a fascinating podcast, listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation
While Claus is a successful innovator, he knows how difficult it is for people to do that
Currently, Claus helps people create ideas and then enables them to implement them. In this podcast, we talked about how ideas come from across industries, from people of different backgrounds coming together to share their viewpoints. And while it's so much more exciting to learn from people who are different than us, people are often uncomfortable with the unfamiliar. Their brains just hate the new and the different.
As a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change, and that means the people inside those companies, I know far too well how the brain hates to change, how it embraces the familiar and fights the unfamiliar. You just need to collaborate with your mind to change all of that and see what is possible. Let this be a time for change. You can do it!!
Claus teaches you how to take your big ideas and turn them into great innovations
He also shares a simple lesson: If you want to do anything—whether it's write a book, change your company, create something new in how you cook dinner—just start. Do a page, a chapter, an idea, one step at a time. The important thing is to start.
You can connect with Claus on LinkedIn, his website, The College of Extraordinary Experiences website, his blog or his email claus.raasted@gmail.com.
About Claus Raasted
This is what clients say about Claus:
"Claus packs more insights into 60 minutes than I can action in 6 months. His fresh, deeply insightful perspective matched with his uncanny ability to tell stories the way his audience can grasp leave the listener feeling a sense of awe and wonder. Savvy, sharp, savant."
"He can inspire you to sit up and listen, and never has there been a greater need to re-evaluate and better understand the changes in ourselves, in business and in society."
"A cross between Thor, Mick Jagger and Lady Gaga!"
Claus works globally but his base is the island of Bornholm in the Baltic Sea, where he lives with his better half and their daughter.
Ready to start working on innovationa and change? Start with these
Blog: How to Convert a Great Idea into a Successful Innovation
Blog: Hate Change? Anthropology Can Make You and Your People Love It!
Podcast: Andy and Andi Simon—Innovation Games® Are What You Need To Imagine Your Future
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how you, yes you, can live a life that's more fulfilling
Kim Spencer—what an amazing women. I was so delighted to be on Kim’s podcast, The Princess and the B, that I wanted to share her enthusiasm with all of our listeners. During this podcast, we dig into why women seem to have a hard time seeing the “princess” in themselves. Kim, as you will hear, has been obsessed with women who somehow smashed the myths holding them back and managed to soar. (Sounds like a chapter in my new book "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business" ) Now Kim is ready to help women overcome those self-imposed limitations and climb to the top. Are you ready to live your best, most fulfilling life? Listen in!
Why do some women self-destruct while others become powerhouses, pioneering their own path and finding their passion and their purpose?
Growing up, Kim had a fascination with princesses. Her mom even had to search through old library books to find new princesses for her. In these characters, Kim found women who were human.
She will also tell you about how her princess fascination was really an escape from a home life marked by an addicted father and an enabling mother. Kim found her way out through acting, but that was not enough. Listen in and you will learn how she escaped her reality while creating a new one, and now finds herself on a continuing journey to help others become the best that they can be.
About Kim Spencer
Rather than tell you Kim's story, I urge you to visit her website, CrownYourself. You can read about her acting career, and her realization that she was living a story that was unfulfilling. And you can also see how she changed her life by changing her story...to herself, her husband and her family. You can connect with Kim through LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and her website.
Rethink your story
We are our stories. We live them. If you are ready to change your story, please visit our new program, Rethink Your Journey with Andi Simon. It was built by women for women who are ready to rethink their life’s journey and take it in new directions. Is it your turn to find that pathway to become the best that you can be? Whether in your homelife, your career, your own business, your philanthropic work, or however you are stuck or stalled. It is time for you to Rethink Your Journey. Join me. Together we will have a great journey. Bon Voyage!
Get inspired by these women who refused to be held back
- Blog: It’s A New Day!!! Finally, Women Have A Seat At The Table
- Blog: Kamala Harris: Boldly Smashing One Of The Highest, Hardest Glass Ceilings
- Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose
Additional resources for you
- My best-selling new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how empowering your employees catalyzes your business
In October of last year I was interviewed by Emma Mills-Sheffield for her blog. We spoke about the challenges that businesses face when they stop growing, which is the subject of my first book, "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights," that shares seven case studies of clients who had gotten stuck or stalled. We discussed how Emma approaches business operations in a way that she can help companies scale and sustain their growth. As we spoke, I realized that we can always learn new things in new ways. And you will as well. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation
Emma and I both find that people are the opportunity and the challenge
We all know that an organization is a group of people. And that its success is dependent upon those people being able to “see, feel and think” for themselves but also as a collaborative unit.
What Emma will share with you is how she develops people's workplace skills using humility and vulnerability. She helps them see themselves in fresh ways and develop their resilience and capabilities so they can become a happy and productive workforce—what every employer wants. Because at the end of the day, any company is just a summary of its employees. Now is a good time to foster engagement and enthusiasm among your own employees as you re-enter a post-COVID environment.
About Emma Mills-Sheffield
A highly sought-after consultant, Emma helps businesses drive efficiency and productivity to get the best from their organization and their people. Through coaching and training employees to become more resilient, she helps them and the companies they work for develop and thrive. By streamlining business operations and investing in people, this encourages business growth fueled by a contented, more dedicated workforce.
Her passion is to empower people, looking beyond pure profit and cost reduction, since a successful business is more than just the bottom line.
Clients typically work with Emma's company, Mindsetup, when they are:
• Scaling up a business
• Restructuring
• Integrating new teams
• Revising strategic direction
• Bidding for new work or preparing for investment
• Ramping up their formal manager training and leadership coaching
• Preparing for a flexible working model
You can contact Emma on LinkedIn, her Mindsetup website or her blog.
Want to learn more about scaling for growth by empowering your people?
- Blog: Best Practices to Scale Your Business for Growth
- Blog: Entrepreneurs, Be Smart and Pick the Right People to Help You Grow
- Podcast: Richard Sheridan—Joy in the Workplace
Additional resources
- My new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to turn your big idea into a true innovation!
With the launch of my new book, “Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business,” I have had the pleasure of meeting many amazing women who are helping other women become the best that they can be. Roshni Pandey and I met through the Women’s Business Collaborative. She is a very successful business woman who is now finding all types of ways to help other women. During our podcast you will hear us talk about how you too can take your ideas and turn them into great innovations, and along the way, transform women and their lives. Do listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation
#rethinkwomeninbusiness is about more than just business
It is about our society, everywhere across the globe. As Marion Edelman once said: “If you cannot see it, you cannot be it.” Today, women of all ages need role models. Roshni’s story will help you think about your own.
About Roshni Pandey
Roshni is the co-founder of BlueBox Group, an investment and advisory group nurturing and developing early stage ideas. She’s also the founder and Managing Partner of Lexicon, a management consulting firm enabling organizations to build strong foundations, navigate increasingly dynamic trading environments, and drive new growth through creative strategy and innovation.
Committed to social causes, Roshni has launched several influential initiatives, including Futurewise, a skills acquisition program to solve the growing crisis of employability, and TRIBE, a social enterprise supporting women and children from underserved communities in Asia Pacific. Roshni is also a judge for Women of the Future awards, providing young women with recognition for their achievements.
Roshni has been the recipient of the “Woman Achiever Award” at the World Women Leadership Congress, the “Strategic Business Partner Award" at the Business Leaders Awards, and many others. Indian by ethnicity, Fijian by birth, Australian by citizenship, Singaporean by residence and global by mindset, Roshni's biggest passion is traveling with her husband and two children.
You can contact Roshni through LinkedIn or at roshni@bluebox.com.sg.
Learn more about living your best, most fulfilled life
- Blog: Move Over Boys, Smart Capable Women Are Refusing To Be Held Back
- Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose
- Podcast: Angela Henderson—How Can You Build A Great Business And A Wonderful Life?
Additional resources
- My new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to confidently and competently connect online!
We often meet people who just transform us. Nadia Bilchik is one of those women. I totally enjoyed this podcast. A former CNN anchor and host, she had to suddenly pivot and create a new Nadia when the pandemic hit. What she’s learning is that she, like so many of us, have had to re-create a part or all of our careers, even our personal lives, as a result of this crisis. Nadia reminds us that a key part of moving forward is clear communication...with our business associates, our friends, our family, and she shares important strategies for doing this. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our conversation
How to effectively connect online for all of our communications
Do you want to build trust, develop rapport and come across as confident, competent and credible during virtual interactions? Nadia can help. Even CEOs are trying to figure out how to engage with their teams while working remote — and often they are not very skilled in building a remote culture. Some of Nadia's wisdom:
- First, look into the camera, not the screen, to keep eye contact.
- Have everyone keep their cameras on, and teach them how to feel comfortable looking at each other.
- Use your new body language to really engage with people even through a video zoom.
- Don’t be afraid to ask: “How are you doing?” or “What is your biggest challenge?” Then really listen to them share with you their pain points.
- Learn to listen. Really listen. Listen with your eyes and you will hear far more than you thought you would.
- Don’t fuss over the new. Enjoy it.
And Nadia is a big fan of my new book, “Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business.” Thank you, Nadia!
About Nadia Bilchik
Nadia Bilchik, President of Greater Impact Communication, is an internationally recognized television personality, communication and professional development expert who has created a proven methodology to develop the mindset and skill set to project confidence and have greater impact every time you communicate.
Nadia's unique approach to communications skills training comes from her extensive experience interviewing and consulting with world-renowned figures, celebrities and corporations, including Nelson Mandela, Tom Hanks, Meryl Streep, Anthony Hopkins, Time Warner/Turner Broadcasting (CNN, Cartoon Network, TBS), The Home Depot, Coca-Cola, Porsche USA, Northeastern University, GA Tech, UGA Terry School of Business, and many others. In addition, she has anchored and hosted feature programs for CNN International, CNN Airport Network and MNet Television (South Africa), has reported for CNN Weekend, and was Editorial Producer for CNN’s Weekend Morning program.
You can connect with Nadia through her website, LinkedInand Twitter, or email her at nadia@nadiabilchik.com.
Want to learn more about how to communicate more effectively? Try these
- Blog: Work Remotely, Are You Kidding Me?
- Podcast: Monique Russell—Why Is It So Hard To Communicate?
- Podcast: Dr Elia Gourgouris and Kon Apostolopoulos—Don’t Struggle: Here Are 7 Ways To Manage The Pandemic
Additional resources
- My new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how you, yes you, can have a wildly successful business!
Tony Guarnaccia and I had a hard time getting together to do a podcast for you. But once we did, we loved our conversation. Tony has an approach to growing businesses which he has developed and honed after years of working with small and large companies, observing how they anticipate what is needed and prepare for uncertainties and change. From his experiences, he developed a process called Democratize Marketing, a way to help business owners create strategies and plans that can help their businesses grow. Do you have a business? Or want one? Listen in!
Watch and hear our conversation here
Hope is not a strategy
According to Tony, and I second this, you need to have a vision. You need to visualize what you want to achieve. You can't be it if you can't see it. Also, you need to know your market and what your customers and potential customers need. Then you become their best solution.
More About Tony
Tony Guarnaccia has helped thousands of businesses survive crises. Whether it was post-9/11, during the Great Recession or amidst massive company acquisitions, Tony has helped all sorts of companies navigate uncertainties and emerge stronger on the other side.
As a child, Tony experienced firsthand the devastating crisis of business failure when his parents’ small bakery business failed and they lost everything, including their home. Its impact on his life was powerful. He determined he would one day figure out how to help small business owners like his parents learn how to run a profitable business. And he has. He has worked with the best companies in every industry, including Google, Microsoft, ADP, Ford, BMW, Mohegan Sun and Morgan Stanley, observing how they grow consistently and predictably, and also how they use adversity to pivot towards opportunity in order to survive and thrive in all manner of economic conditions. As a result, he has helped grow over 10,000 small businesses and a dozen Fortune 500 companies.
His current mission, Democratize Marketing, shows small business owners and entrepreneurs how to grow profitably and how to leverage their resources to make it happen. He believes that by growing small businesses, together we can impact not just our local communities but also our world. In fact, Tony has become an activist for making positive change in the world. Throughout his career, he’s supported the Special Olympics, Food for the Hungry, Acts Missionaries, International Justice Mission, World Vision, Save the Bay and other visionary organizations, charities and causes.
Where to find Tony
You can connect with Tony through his website, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and Instagram, or email him at tony@meettonyg.com.
Want to learn how to grow a great business? Here's a start
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Blog: Best Practices to Scale Your Business for Growth
- Podcast: Alicia Robb—Move Over, Men...Women Are Starting Businesses And Doing Exceptionally Well
Additional resources
- My newest book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to make money investing in the things you care about
All of the women in my new book,"Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business," inspire me. They are all strong, bold trailblazers who overcame endless hurdles, regardless of the industry they were in or the field they were pursuing. One of these women, Janine Firpo, is the guest of this podcast. I wanted you to hear her talk about her passion and her purpose. When you read her chapter in my book, you will learn how her personal story set the stage for what we discuss today. Janine is on a personal mission to empower others, particularly women, to understand how to manage their money, invest in what they care about, and make substantial returns on their purpose-driven investment decisions. All of us really need to hear this interview!
Watch and listen to our conversation
When women take control of their money, they can to change the world
As Janine so aptly puts it, "Where we choose to put our money matters. Whether it’s parked in a savings account at a big bank or sits in the stock market, what your money is funding may shock you—and not paying attention isn’t an option anymore."
Teaching women how to invest in the communities, people and values that bring them joy is the subject of Janine's new book, “Activate Your Money: Invest to Grow Your Wealth and Build a Better World,” coming out this May. This is also the focus of her groundbreaking investment company, SEMBA, which embodies Janine's core values and mission: to create a more just and equitable society by teaching women how to invest their assets in alignment with their personal values.
Women helping women invest for good
Written in collaboration with over 120 women (and a few men), “Activate Your Money” combines stories of women’s personal finance journeys with practical and actionable investment strategies, giving women the knowledge and confidence they need to take control of their money and grow it by investing in the things they believe in. Janine says that her book was inspired by her encouraging mother, a series of women mentors and an extensive community of women who paved the way for women in business.
About Janine
Throughout her diverse 35-year career, Janine Firpo has held numerous high-profile positions, including Deputy Director for Financial Services for the Poor for The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Lead Investor at Next Wave Impact Fund, mobile banking expert for the International Finance Corporation, and Director for the Hewlett-Packard Company. You can connect with Janine through her website SEMBA, her blog, Twitter or LinkedIn.
More great stories of women smashing myths and hurdling over barriers
- Blog: Move Over Boys, Smart Capable Women Are Refusing To Be Held Back
- Podcast: Tatiana Tsoir—Some Of The Best Ideas For Women To Create A Successful Business
- Podcast: How Women Entrepreneurs Can Think Bigger, Build Sustainable Businesses, and Change the World
Additional resources
- My newest book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear what a big difference one woman can make!
I had the pleasure of meeting Liz Musch on a Women’s Business Collaborative event. She was moderating a panel of amazing women who are deeply involved in helping women succeed across the globe—India, Southeast Asia, Africa, everywhere. As I listened to her speak, I was struck by the depth of her devotion to helping women, leveraging her own success well beyond what any career position might have enabled her to do. Whether through her non-profit work or as a mentor to other women or pivoting and figuring out her own life's journey, she brings to our podcast a fresh perspective that is very important to listen to, absorb and apply. Enjoy and share with others, and like Liz, may we all find ways to help women become the best that they can be.
About Liz Musch
Liz is the epitome of a multicultural and global citizen and business leader. With Dutch-Indonesian origins, she immigrated to the US as a child, spending her formative years and the beginning of her career here. She then moved to France, with Paris having been her home for more than 30 years now. With both American and French citizenship, she now splits her time between Paris and southern California.
Liz has had a very successful career holding multicultural, regional and global responsibilities with professional and marketing services organizations, most recently as CEO at Kantar/WPP and Ipsos. She now has an active portfolio career on both sides of the pond: corporate board work, strategic advisor to international businesses, and continued and intensive support of an environmental non-profit. She also serves on the board of her alma mater, The Fletcher School, playing a key role in helping it transform for the future.
Liz's proudest achievement is her son, Max, who is a young architect in Paris.
To connect with Liz, visit her page on LinkedIn.
Want more stories of women helping women? Here are three
- Blog: Crushing It: Women Entrepreneurs Show You How To Build a Better Business
- Blog: Move Over Boys, Smart Capable Women Are Refusing To Be Held Back
- Podcast: Tracy Higginbotham—Now Is The Time For Women To Help Women Build Better Businesses
Additional resources
- My newest book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to let go of negative behaviors so you can soar
His Excellence Ambassador Terry Earthwind Nichols is an amazing individual for us to share with you. An accomplished author, speaker, master teacher, CEO World Opinion Columnist and a founding partner of the Global Institute for Thought Leadership, Terry talks to us today about a topic of great importance during and after this pandemic crisis: the Imposter Syndrome that far too many otherwise successful people are feeling right now. It is also being called the white-collar PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). Are you dealing with this too? Listen and share.
Watch and listen to our conversation here
Why are CEOs waking in the middle of the night sweating and even crying?
They aren’t sure they have the skills others thought they had to become the leaders they are expected to be. They aren’t sure they can lead. Terry will tell you all about these anxieties successful people are coping with, or barely coping with. The good news is that he and his organization have a process to help them open up their minds to what is happening and how to overcome it.
What is so interesting is that this is a time for leaders to “rethink” their own stories and create new ones where they are the true heroes they are now, and can be. Whether they are men or women, they need to think about what is holding them back and how to let the past memories go so they can move forward to a better future, something I write extensively about in my new book, "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business."
About Terry Earthwind Nichols
Terry is a Visionary Strategist for those looking for an achievement-based vs. goals-based plan for their business, and the creator of Earthwind Academy and the Vision Strategy Roadmap. He also trains health and wellness professionals to help their clients let go of negative repetitive behaviors such as Impostor Syndrome, self-sabotage, procrastination, suicide ideation and PTSD. In addition, he is the author of five books, including "Profiling For Profit" and "Evolve Yourself and Your Business." You can connect with Terry through his website, LinkedIn and Twitter, or email him at terry@evolutionaryhealer.com.
Ready to move forward and find your inner harmony? Here's a start
- Blog: How Seriously Do You Take Your Emotional Health?
- Blog: Try This Simple Strategy For Finding Your Inner Resilience
- Podcast: Freddie Ravel, Founder Of Life In Tune—Strike Success With The Rhythm In You
Additional resources
- My newest book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Women entrepreneurs: hear how to be the boss of your bottom line!
This was a terrific podcast with a woman who will help you start and grow your own business, today. As a corporate anthropologist who helps organizations change, I thought Tatiana Tsoir’s approach would be refreshing for those of you who listen to On The Brink and for her listeners as well. We talk about the challenges that women face today, particularly starting and building a business. Many people, not just women, have ideas and want to be their own boss. Is this you?Listen to Tatiana address some of the mistakes you’re going to make before you make them.
Watch and hear our conversation here
Far too many businesses fail within the first five years
Well, we know that it’s difficult for women to get venture capital funding. We also know that many of the businesses they start are really good businesses. To help you find the right business where there is a market need you can serve, Tatiana shares the five critical decisions you need to make when starting a business, plus the three mistakes business owners make with their bottom line (and what to do about it). She also talks about how to make your business pandemic-proof and how to stay flexible while making money doing what you love .
About Tatiana Tsoir, CPA
Tatiana Tsoir [Saw-yer], CPA is a numbers expert with over 15 years' experience helping entrepreneurs and business owners become the boss of their bottom line. So many people dream of being their own boss but hold themselves back because they’re terrified of dealing with money, numbers and taxes. Tatiana helps those dreamers get to know their numbers, get taxes under control and reduce money anxiety. Her mission is to empower those of us who are overwhelmed by running a business so we can make money doing what we love!
In her upcoming book, "Dream Bold, Start Smart" (available March 2021), as well as in her mini-coaching program Something That’s Yours, Tatiana provides clients around the world with simple and actionable steps to own their numbers and to be confident in their business decisions. She also co-hosts the popular podcast Anything Would Work and hosts Talk to Tatiana.
You can connect with Tatiana though her website tatianatsoir.com, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, or you can email her at sayhello@tatianatsoir.com.
Want to start your own business? Here are some ideas to get you going
- Blog: How Smart Fearless Women Are Breaking The Barriers Of Business
- Blog: Want To Save the World? Women Entrepreneurs Are Already Doing It!
- Podcast: Lisa Linfield—Women, It Is Time To Get Your Money Madness Under Control
Additional resources
- My newest book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to enjoy your business and your life!
Our guest today is Angela Henderson, a wonderful woman from Australia who teaches us how to help women start and grow their businesses and themselves. She has a unique approach to help aspiring women entrepreneurs reach the peak of their performance. This is always a topic of great importance to us and to our listeners. How can you learn the skills and smarts to take you to greater success, from starting a business to sustaining its growth? And once you have that business going, how can you adapt it to these fast-changing times and remain profitable when all around you, things are no longer what they used to be? Angela tells us! Listen in.
There is a life besides work
In today's podcast, Angela and I talk about the personal life you are working toward. Hopefully, our conversation will help you think about your own journey.
I'd like to add a plug here for our new program debuting in March 2021, called Rethink Your Journey with Andi Simon. Created with the input of a number of amazing women, it's designed to help you Rethink your own life and make sure you have the one you truly want. Learn more on www.andisimon.com.
Building a business is hard work
You can fast track your success by working with a business consultant like Angela who has run a successful business and made the mistakes so you don’t need to. Feeling overwhelmed or stuck? Maybe this is a good time to pause, step back and think about yourself through a fresh lens. Angela writes: “The key is overcoming our inner challenges and roadblocks to improve our external results.”
About Angela Henderson
Angela’s mission is to guide aspiring female entrepreneurs to have the courage, mindset and foundations to build a successful business while embracing their natural gifts and talents, and having the lifestyle they desire.
Like myself and many other entrepreneurs, Angela wears multiple hats: business owner, author, business consultant and mother, to name a few. She also understands the sweat and tears that go into running a high performing small business, having run my own for over seven years.
You can contact Angela though LinkedIn, info@angelahenderson.com.au or her websites Finlee+Me and Angela Henderson Consulting. She also invites you to join her Facebook group.
Want more guidance on achieving what you really want? Try these
- Blog: How Smart Fearless Women Are Breaking The Barriers Of Business
- Blog: Ready To Find Your A-Ha Moment So Your Business Can Soar?
- Podcast: Tracy Higginbotham—Now Is The Time For Women To Help Women Build Better Businesses
Additional resources
- My newest book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- My award-winning first book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to bring your organization "in tune" through music!
What if you could listen to a podcast in silence? What might you hear? Your heart beating. Your breathing. Your mind quieting down so it can step out and look inside. What if you could learn how to use music to help your business find its own harmony, its melody, its rhythm, and its beauty? That is what Freddie Ravel does during this podcast. He and I talk about how you can tune up your life with music as a metaphor to give you focus, rhythm and beauty. Freddie is an absolute original and someone you really must listen to. Do enjoy.
Watch and listen to our podcast
Music is an inherent part of human existence
How we listen to music varies from person to person and culture to culture. But however you engage with it, music will teach you something as long as you open your heart and mind to what it is trying to tell you.
Meet Freddie Ravel
Grammy-nominated performer, communication expert and business visionary, Freddie has been dubbed the “Keynote Maestro” by the City of Los Angeles for his groundbreaking Life In Tune™ system to “renew the national and international economy.” He is also an amazing musician and entertainer devoted to bringing harmony to all of society.
Freddie was the musical director for the legendary band Earth, Wind and Fire, he has performed with Madonna on the soundtrack for the film Evita and at the Grammys with Prince, he has rocked stadiums with Carlos Santana and recorded with Kanye, and he has led the teams behind J. Lo, Jimmy Kimmel and Lady GaGa.
In constant demand to bring audiences in tune around the world, Freddie's clients include IBM, Toyota, NASA, Apple, Blue Cross Health, Google and Prudential Financial Services. His ideal balance of entertainment and content is essential for businesses and entrepreneurs to transform from dissonance to harmony, especially during these trying times.
You can connect with Freddie on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram or his website, Life In Tune.
Is your business in need of transformative change? Start here
- Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy
- Blog: How Storytelling Can Transform Your Culture And Energize Your Team
- Podcast: Roger Nierenberg—How Music Can Transform The Way Your Organization Functions
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Pre-order my new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how great content gets your business found on the web!
As content marketers, we at SAMC know the power of great content. Search is all about being the authority on a topic so that search engines know you, prioritize you and deliver potential customers to you. Today’s podcast is with Verity Craft, and as you will hear, she and I spend valuable time digging deeper into the power of content marketing, the changing role of thought leaders and the challenges of social media. Verity's website states: "Conscious, quality content is the creative conversion of passion and purpose into something powerful." Hear how this works!
How do you get your story told? And how do you do it in a way that builds your brand?
This is a great podcast for each of you who are trying to create yourself into a business. But even if you already have a business, you need to pay attention to what you’re putting on the web and how it works for you or not. This is what Verity is all about. Listen in!
Meet Verity Craft
An entrepreneur, writer, consultant, speaker (and musical theatre nerd), Verity Craft has with business partner Christina Wedgwood built the content agency Intelligent Ink into the foremost content creation and thought leader firm in New Zealand.
Throughout her career, Verity has worked with hundreds of businesses, brands and industry leaders who, like her, believe in developing and leveraging their expertise into exceptional content that positions them as authorities in their fields, thereby adding value for the people they’re here to serve.
Verity also co-hosts the Elevate online event series and is soon to be a guest on Francesca Alexander’s Hustle & Glow podcast. You can connect with her on LinkedIn, Intelligent Ink or verity@intelligentink.co.nz.
Ready to learn how to create exceptional content? Start here
- Blog: Content is Still King: How to Get Great Google Results
- Blog: How Do You Get Found On The Internet? Start With Great Content.
- Podcast: Dave Summers—How Can You Build Your Digital Brand Effectively?
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Pre-order my new book: "Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to create and grow your own wealth!
Carl Allen is our guest on our podcast today. He brings to you, our listeners, something quite special. He isn’t just going to tell you about how he has made a fortune. Rather, he takes you through the steps of how you, yes you, can find a way to build wealth, too. Most of us dream about having the means to do what we want — when, where, how and with whom we want — but we don’t have the first clue where to begin. Carl shows us the way!
Watch and listen to our podcast
Change your life, so you have a life
According to the 2016 HSBC Essence of Enterprise study, the average U.S. entrepreneur’s net worth is $4 million and many run several businesses. Yet most wealth is rarely inherited. At least in America, it is typically earned by investing in yourself and venturing into entrepreneurship, a topic near and dear to us at SAMC. In 2012, Carl started Dealmaker Wealth Society to help aspiring entrepreneurs do just that — find a business they can create and grow, along with the wealth that comes with it.
There are 27 million entrepreneurs in the U.S. and both my husband, Andy Simon, and myself can tell you that it is neither easy nor simple but it can be done. In addition, we help others take their observations and turn them into innovations with Blue Ocean Strategy. You too can build your idea into a business that can “soar.” Listen in today and see how.
Meet Carl Allen
Carl Allen, entrepreneur, investor and corporate dealmaker with almost three decades of experience, is the founder and editor of Dealmaker Wealth Society. In charge of more than 330 transactions worth close to $48 billion, Carl has advised some of the world’s largest corporations on investments and acquisitions, including Bank of America and Hewlett-Packard. One of the world’s leading experts on buying and financing business acquisitions, Carl has invaluable insight to offer you about buying, growing and selling businesses. (He also became an Uber driver during this pandemic so he can deliver medicine to the elderly in his community. Quite a guy.)
Want some help launching your big idea and growing your wealth? Here's a start
- Blog: What This Successful Entrepreneur Has Learned In Business
- Blog: Entrepreneurs, Be Smart and Pick the Right People to Help You Grow
- Podcast: Rod Robertson—Winning at Entrepreneurship
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Pre-order my new book: "Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to catapult growth by selling with noble purpose!
Lisa McLeod is a thought leader in the field of purpose-based, noble selling and the bestselling author of "Selling with Noble Purpose: How to Drive Revenue and Do Work That Makes You Proud." Lisa believes that sales is a noble profession and loves the opportunity to share her insights on how you, our listeners, can significantly benefit your bottom line by focusing on making a difference in the lives of your clients. Time to sell with noble purpose!
Watch and listen to our podcast
Some of the things we discussed that can apply to your business:
- The secret reason most people hate their jobs
- Why purpose-driven businesses have a financial advantage
- The huge (hidden) mistake most organizations make
- Why profit is a terrible goal for your team
- How to reverse a sales decline
- How to be a more inspiring leader
About Lisa McLeod
A global expert on purpose-driven business and the bestselling author of "Selling with Noble Purpose: How to Drive Revenue and Do Work That Makes You Proud," as well as four other books, Lisa McLeod debunks the myth that money is the primary motivation for most employees. Instead, she helps leaders drive exponential revenue growth by increasing competitive differentiation and emotional engagement. She developed her Noble Purpose philosophy after her research revealed that salespeople who truly want to make a difference to their customers — who work with noble purpose — outsell those who focus only on their own targets and quotas.
A former Procter & Gamble Sales Leader, Lisa founded her own firm, McLeod & More, whose clients include Google, LinkedIn, Salesforce, Cisco, Roche, Volvo and Dave & Buster's and whose work has been featured in Forbes, The Wall Street Journal and NPR. She has keynoted in 25 countries, authored five books and over 2,000 articles, and has appeared on The Today Show and NBC Nightly News. Her firm’s work has been featured in Forbes, The Wall Street Journal and NPR. You can connect with Lisa on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook and her website.
Ready to send your sales through the roof? Here's a place to start
- Blog: Best Practices to Scale Your Business for Growth
- Podcast: Jacqueline Kibler—Want To Grow? Take A Good Hard Look At Your Culture
- Podcast: Scot Hunsaker—Turning Employees Into Owners of Your Company
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Pre-order my new book: "Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn an important key to growing your business!
As a corporate anthropologist who works with organizations that need or want to change, it was truly a pleasure to bring Bill Flynn onto our show. We talked about all the things you need to develop to thrive in these fast-changing times. As Bill tells us, thousands of businesses are started every day. Most die, a few thrive and the rest struggle to survive — mainly through enormous effort, force of will and luck. There is a better way to take the guesswork out of growth: focusing on the few areas that make all the difference. Listen in!
Watch and listen to our podcastThe time to change is really now!
In this podcast, Bill and I discuss:
- Are we trying to manage change in all the wrong ways? Is that why change management often doesn’t work?
- Are we doing our talent development correctly? Is it working?
- How about “feedback?” Is it backfiring? Instead of inspiring people to do better, is it driving people to flee or fear you?
- What about early stage businesses? Is yours one that will burst through and soar or flip/flop until you fail?
Meet Bill Flynn
With more than 30 years' experience working for and advising hundreds of companies in a variety of market segments including speech recognition, e-commerce and affiliate marketing, Bill Flynn pivoted and is now a business growth coach. Before that, he oversaw five successful outcomes, two IPOs and seven acquisitions, including a successful turnaround during the 2008 financial crisis.
As a multi-certified growth coach, Bill is a Certified Predictive Index Partner, author and international speaker. He has a Certificate with Distinction in the Foundations of NeuroLeadership and a best-selling book, "Further, Faster: The Vital Few Steps that Take the Guesswork Out of Growth." His company, Catalyst Growth Advisors, helps leaders take the guesswork out of growth by helping them confidently predicting the future. You can connect with Bill through LinkedIn, Twitter, his website or bill@catalystgrowthadvisors.com.
Know you need to change but not sure how? Try starting with these
- Blog: Need To Change? Why Not Turn To The Experts
- Blog: Change: It's Scary But Take The Plunge Anyway!
- Podcast: Carsten Tams—Changing The Way We Manage Change
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Pre-order my new book, "Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to change your mindset and start living your Best Life
Lisa Linfeld is a special woman leader with a passion to teach women about how to rethink their lives by changing their mindset. In today’s talk, she and I share with our On the Brink listeners how to “see, feel and think” in new ways by changing how you manage your mind. I first met Lisa when she interviewed me for her Working Women's Wealth podcast whose aim is to help women take control of their income, their wealth and their finances. Lisa thinks of this as a fight — a fight to get women the freedom they deserve. Our discussion is about how you can get “unstuck” from your mindset that is keeping you from living your “Best Life." Listen, learn, share.
Perhaps it is time for you to collaborate with your mind
In the podcast, Lisa and I share what we are learning from the neurosciences and social sciences about change and how to help people do it. One of the most important things is how the mind creates its visual image of reality. From that visualization, we literally only see what the brain wants us to see.
“Isn’t it time for women to be as good as men at managing and growing their investments?”
I know that this sounds like sci-fi but your brain imagines not only what you have experienced but how you believe and how are not imagining your future you. For women, as Lisa knows so well, money has become something they know should be central to their concerns. Yet, all too often, it is a sidebar to other things they have to care about — their children, their homes, their jobs.
Lisa's book, "Deep Grooves," will help you:
- Discover the Five Signposts to find your unique path to joy and purpose
- Uncover your Real Reasons change isn't happening and put in place frameworks to change that actually work
- Learn the brain science and the shortcuts to "re-wiring" your thinking
- Understand how to make small daily changes that bring about your Best Life
Meet Lisa Linfield
A Certified Financial Planner (CFP), Lisa Linfield has lived and worked in the UK and South Africa, spending 19 years in financial services companies before starting her own wealth management company, Southern Pride Wealth. She has a B.Sc., a B.Com (Honours) in Financial Planning, is a member of the FIA, and has postgraduate degrees from Oxford University, London Business School and Insead. You can connect with Lisa on her website, LinkedIn, Twitter, Working Women's Wealth, and Southern Pride Wealth.
Need some help learning how to change, then making it stick? Start here
- Blog: Managing Change in Fast-Changing Times
- Blog: What Time Is It? Time To Change
- Podcast: Michael Tate—Are You Terrified Of The Pain Of Change?
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Pre-order my new book, "Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how anthropology can help your staff return to the workplace
What an amazing podcast we have today. Listen in as three anthropologists talk about what the nature of work will be in the near future. With the disruptions brought by the pandemic, we must explore what remote work is being done, what cultures are emerging, and what tools and processes will be needed when we return to the workplace. The three great business anthropologists are Chris Diming, Lisa Galarneau and Racine Marcus Brown, who have each been working on the future of work from a number of perspectives. As you may know, I also am a business anthropologist, and one of the things we do is help you envision what the future of your workplace will become. The future is coming fast, so you better start getting ready for it now.
A couple of highlights from our discussion:
- You must observe what your people are really doing.
- Then help them reimagine what they will be doing and how you can support them.
- Don’t let the idea that things are going back to the way they were stop you from moving forward.
- Remember, humans need to know what is coming next in order to live today.
These are great anthropologists with exceptional insights to share
I encourage you to let the methods, tools and approach of these anthropologists help you see, feel and think in new ways. You must adapt. It is the only way forward. Make it fun and your folks will enjoy the journey with you.
About Chris Diming, Ph.D.
Chris Diming, Ph.D. is a applied anthropologist and design researcher with a people-centered outlook and expertise in user research and the urban built environment. He is particularly fascinated by social spaces, our everyday behaviors within them, and the cultures we form through our daily activities. He strives to improve the user experience of technology, the built environment and the workplace, as this intersection is where we spend much of our lives. Through his research and entrepreneurial experience, Chris seeks to drive innovation, create profound user experiences and spark social value. He has recently returned to the Richmond, VA area after working in the UK and Hungary. You can connect with Chris on LinkedIn or Twitter.
About Lisa Galarneau, Ph.D.
Lisa Galarneau, Ph.D. is an applied anthropologist and design researcher/strategist with over 25 years' experience in the tech industry, food/beverage, video games/virtual worlds, and advertising/media. She began her career as a linguist in the US Army, followed by undergraduate and graduate work at UC Berkeley, California State University and University of Waikato (New Zealand). Her work in the tech industry has included ground-breaking and award-winning projects related to the internet, media, video games/virtual worlds and a number of community and educational projects. Recently, Lisa has worked as a market, design and user experience researcher and strategist on projects for Microsoft, Amazon and dozens of other small and large tech, education and media companies. She is also a disabled veteran, activist, educator and advocate. You can connect with Lisa on LinkedIn, Twitter or her website, HireWisdom.org.
About Racine Marcus Brown, Ph.D.
Racine Marcus Brown, Ph.D. is a business anthropologist with extensive leadership and research experience in medical anthropology, health services research and tech startups. Prior to returning to graduate school for advanced degrees in anthropology, he served as an infantry officer, platoon leader and staff officer in the US Marine Corps. Since earning his Ph.D., Racine has worked as a health services researcher at Veterans Affairs and a strategist and research consultant for startups in the trust tech and fin tech spaces. In addition, he has founded a moving business and worked as marketing lead for an academic services startup. Currently, he is a consultant for HireWisdom and a user experience researcher for Radiant Digital. You can connect with Racine on LinkedIn.
Could your business use a little anthropology? Here's a start
- Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy
- Blog: Hate Change? Anthropology Can Make You and Your People Love It!
- Podcast: Rita Denny—Maybe You Need Anthropology To See Yourself In New Ways
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Pre-order my new book, "Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to overcome your mental roadblocks to success
This was quite an amazing podcast conversation with Kelly Ruta. I can tell you that she is just plain fantastic. A clinical psychotherapist for over two decades, she has now turned her professional training into programs to help women, in particular women entrepreneurs, unblock their limitations and unlock their minds to become the best they can be. Our own program, Rethink Your Journey with Andi Simon, is similar in many ways to what Kelly has created...different in our approaches. Listen and learn how you can collaborate with your mind, change your course, and find the purpose and promise you have been seeking.
Watch and listen to our podcast here
Kelly’s mastermind program, Limitless Impact Master Class, has been called the Harvard of master classes
In this podcast, you will enjoy the focus on how to change what isn’t working for you today. As you may know, at SAMC we help our clients collaborate with the mind, which tends to do what it thinks you want it to do. Now it is time to teach your mind what you want to do.
Helping entrepreneurial women ascend to the next level in the business world
So many amazing, successful women still find themselves struggling with:
- finding courage to take action
- lacking confidence
- feeling they still aren't enough
If that sounds like you, Kelly will help you see yourself through a fresh lens and work on solving those problems. Her own story is about defying the odds. She has done it and you can as well. You can learn more about Kelly on LinkedIn or her website.
More stories of women who challenge the status quo and bring about change
- Blog: Fearless Women Leading Protests And Shattering Stereotypes
- Blog: Why Women Make Better Leaders, Especially In A Pandemic
- Podcast: Lisa Caputo—Smashing The Myths Of What Women Can Accomplish
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Pre-order my new book, "Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to change the way people see each other!
I have had the pleasure of working with Jessica Weldon at Washington University in St. Louis where she is Assistant Director of Programs at the Skandalaris Center for Interdisciplinary Innovation and Entrepreneurship. My husband Andy and I created the Simon Initiative for Entrepreneurship at the Skandalaris Center to help aspiring minority and women entrepreneurs take an idea and turn it into a successful innovation and a business that can thrive. Do you have a big idea that could maybe become the next blockbuster business? Don't miss this podcast!
Women entrepreneurs not being heard
When we were discussing the challenges of women entrepreneurs, Jessica shared with me that she had observed a serious problem for women who were pitching their ideas to investors. As great as the ideas were, the women were not being heard. The investors had biases that influenced how they responded to the women presenting their ideas and seeking funding and support.
So what did she do? Design a program to help teach those investors how to listen to aspiring businesswomen in a more balanced and equitable way. Actually, her program should be taught to investors everywhere if women are ever going to grow themselves and their businesses, because it's not enough for women investors to try and find great women to invest in, like Fanta Kaba whom you will also hear from. We need men to do so, too. And we need to get rid of the implicit, outdated biases that dictate what women can or should be able to achieve.
Now is the time to change
I will put in a pitch here for a wonderful group of women’s organizations I am involved with that helps women get the support they need and also that encourages corporations of all sizes to embrace the value of women in the C-suite (and not just in HR or marketing). Check out the Women’s Business Collaborative and the nine major initiatives we are working hard to make happen, and soon.
About Jessica Weldon
Jessica Weldon directs programming strategy for the Skandalaris Center for Interdisciplinary Innovation and Entrepreneurship at Washington University in St. Louis with a focus on diversity and inclusion. With a background in higher education, she earned her bachelor’s in Communication from the University of Missouri and her master’s in International Affairs from Washington University, being on campus in a variety of roles for 10+ years. She also is an advisor for Arts & Sciences students.
Jessica is particularly adept at building relationships with students and staff, as well as managing a multitude of details while simultaneously overseeing a busy front office. In addition, she has created and implemented numerous training and orientation programs for student workers. You can learn more about Jessica on LinkedIn.
About Fanta Kaba
Currently a 2nd-year MBA student at the Olin Business School at Washington University in St. Louis, Fanta Kaba is the founder/owner of the skincare brand Golden Roots Essentials. Fanta, also known as Dabo, launched her company in 2019 after a self-discovery trip to her parent's native country, Guinea, where she learned about the benefits of raw shea butter and the many ways her African ancestors used it to maintain the health of their skin and hair — a great example of how creative, competitive, productive women can take an insight and an idea and create their own “Blue Ocean.”
Fanta's story will inspire you. Growing up as a dark-skinned woman, she was often criticized for her skin complexion. At age nine, she was even told that if she did not bleach her skin, she would never get married. But instead of succumbing to the pressure to alter her skin, she developed a passion for self-care and skincare. She created Golden Roots Essentials to offer people not only a golden skincare routine but a golden life through self-care, skincare and culture. You can learn more about Fanta on LinkedIn and on her website.
Enjoy these stories of women who refused to listen to the naysayers and instead, saw their ideas become successful businesses
- Blog: How Brilliant Fearless Women Are Rewriting The Script In Hollywood
- Blog: The Most Successful Under 40 Women Entrepreneurs
- Podcast: Lisa Caputo—Smashing The Myths Of What Women Can Accomplish
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Pre-order my new book, "Smashing The Myths of Women in Business"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to find your "why," a key to happiness
As you know, for our On The Brink podcasts I go looking for people who have a different perspective, something in their own journey that's worth sharing so you can learn from them and begin to think about yourself with some new, fresh ideas. Such a person is Matthew Korban, a Certified Health and Life Coach. With our SAMC clients we often say, If you really want to change, have a crisis or create one. Well, Matthew found himself in the middle of a major crisis, a health crisis, and it ended up changing his life. Today he's healthy and happy, and spends his time teaching others how they can be too. Take a listen.
Tough childhood, then success and a near-death experience, then happiness
Born in Beirut, Lebanon during a war, Matthew spent the first 13 years of his life hiding from bombs. When he went to school, he would hide under the desks and hold his friend's hand and then run to the shelter. When he turned 13, he left Lebanon to be educated in Switzerland and France, then came to the U.S. for college. Once he started working, all he wanted to do was work hard at a career, have a family, and give his kids a decent life, not like the one he had had.
Soon he was working 15-hour days and weighed 350 pounds. He was leading a very unhealthy life but he was very successful. He was a CEO, sitting on boards and receiving awards. He was a star. But he couldn't walk.
When he went to his doctor, he was told that he had major inflammation that had contaminated his blood, spleen and intestines and that he had five months to live. "Just go be with your family for five months and then that's it," his doctor told him.
Growing up, Matthew used to practice martial arts. As he explains in our podcast, "My instructor used to say, If you fall down six times, make sure you stand up seven." Matthew remembered this as he was lying on a medical table, determined to live. He regained his strength, went back to school and got certified as a Health and Life Coach. Now he helps CEOs and top executives learn how to restore balance to their lives, to their relationships, to their health. "I'm enjoying this much more than I used to enjoy my previous work," he says. "I have much less money but I'm happier."
Matthew's 3 step change process
Like us, Matthew is a culture change expert and shares with us his method of helping people let go of the old and embrace the new.
1. First thing is admitting you need help. Everyone needs help. But it really takes courage and strength to ask for help. It doesn't mean you're weak, it means you're strong. We need to cheer each other on.
2. The second step is uncovering your why. This is the most important thing. The first 15 ways you answer the question "Why?" are wrong. It takes 15 times to get it right. We sit in our comfort zone and when we ask why we're doing this, our answer is to defend ourselves and protect ourselves and shield ourselves, so we can keep sitting in our comfort zone.
3. His coaching method called MOVE. People love their comfort zone. But by changing, it doesn't mean starting over. It's just taking your desire to have everything and turning it into something better, something where there is a purpose with an objective. Matthew starts with small habit changes to reshape the new, then steers people toward that new direction. And as we preach all the time, no one likes change!
About Matthew Korban
Matthew Korban, Certified Health and Life Coach, has spent over 25 years connecting with people, first as an international marketing consultant and now as an impassioned coach who helps executives restore balance without compromising their careers, relationships or health. As an 8-figure business owner, Matthew understands the demands of business and the stress of building something from the ground up, which is why he is passionate about helping others achieve balance and be successful.
Matthew was at the top of his career when a near-death experience turned his life around. He now trains people from all walks of life to connect to their passion, reignite relationships and find balance in their lives. His wife, Marina, is a certified Yoga instructor. Matthew is a 5th Degree black belt martial artist and practices meditation and yoga daily.
You can contact Matthew on Twitter or his website www.matthewkorban.com, or email him at mattkorban1@gmail.com.
Need help changing? Here are some things to get you started
- Blog: Now That You Have Your Crisis, What Do You Change?
- Blog: Can People And Businesses Really, Truly Change? Yes! Here's How
- Podcast: Michael Tate—Are You Terrified Of The Pain Of Change?
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear why anthropology should be part of your business plan!
It was an honor to speak with Simon Roberts on our On the Brink with Andi Simon podcast. Simon is a highly regarded business anthropologist with his firm Stripe Partners, serving clients across the globe with effective, innovative ethnographic and anthropological research. I am also a business (or corporate) anthropologist, and as we talked about both of our journeys, we realized how important it is for organizations of all sizes to understand how to step back and see themselves through a fresh lens — an anthropological one. Need a fresh insight? Do listen in.
You will only know what you don’t know if you open your mind to what could be and let your experiences show you what is
During our discussion, Simon and I delved into his own journey both inside corporations, such as Intel, and as an entrepreneur setting up his own business. His career began with a PhD in anthropology focused on the satellite TV revolution in India in the mid-90s. He then started the UK’s first dedicated ethnographic research company, Ideas Bazaar, before leading an R&D team at Intel’s Digital Health Group. In 2013, he co-founded Stripe Partners, a strategy and innovation consultancy which supports teams working on near-term product launches and longer-range strategy engagements.
We laughed at how he was able to see things in ways that his clients were blocking, taking one client out camping because he wanted to expand into the camping industry. Or another who wanted to understand how broadband wireless could improve people's lives by making it easier to get things they needed.
From Simon's own observations, he has learned how our brains hate to see new things. He has also observed how our body and brain are so closely interwoven, but we don’t think of them as one being.
About Simon Roberts
Simon's expertise lies in deeply understanding both people and emerging technologies. His consulting experience centers on product, business and platform strategy in consumer and business contexts. His work has been recognized by Bloomberg, The Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal, BBC Radio 4 and Quartz. His new book, "The Power of Not Thinking: How Our Bodies Learn and Why We Should Trust Them," is out now.
You can learn more about Simon on his website, Stripe Partners, and you can contact him at simon.roberts@stripepartners.com.
For more on how corporate anthropology can help your business, check these out
- Blog: Innovative Applications of Corporate Anthropology in Business
- Blog: Hire Anthropologists! It Might Be Your Smartest Business Move
- Podcast: Rita Denny—Maybe You Need Anthropology To See Yourself In New Ways
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to break through the clutter with your story
I met Dave Summers through Peter Winick’s roundtable for thought leaders. What a treat to get to know him. We spent our time talking about how you can build your brand digitally, creating a personality for yourself through social media. Quite quickly, social media has become an amazing set of tools for you to tell your story through videos, interviews, written materials and groups. If you are struggling during the economic recovery to build your business back again, you must listen to Dave and follow some of his how-tos. They are full of common sense that is often overlooked. If you need your story told, your brand built and your audience expanded, listen in.
In this podcast, you'll learn how to:
- Put together a plan
- Rehearse before you do anything on a video
- Write a script and try it out on others
- Get your story straight and tell it over and over
- Use all the media channels, not just the ones you think are best for you
- Track the impact watch the trendlines.
About Dave Summers
Dave was an early advocate and developer of desktop digital media, creating a massive library of web-based content. Working at Pepsi, Accenture and most recently AMA, he has consistently delivered great user experiences, partnering with recognized global thought leaders and the most compelling business storytellers in the world today. Whether through interactive business simulations, podcasts or streamed video, Dave knows how to put out killer content and keep his skills and knowledge cutting-edge current.
You can contact Dave through his website: davesummers.com
For a deeper dive, check out these blogs and podcast
- Blog: Why Social Media Is Crucial To Your Marketing Strategy
- Blog: Does Social Media Drive Website Traffic? Let's See!
- Podcast: JD Gershbein—How Is LinkedIn Your New World For Building Networks?
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to protect yourself from cybersecurity threats
We have done a number of podcast interviews on a topic that should be of great concern to you: cybersecurity. As an anthropologist, I am always fascinated by people’s habits. Your habits, as today's guest George Finney tells us, may make it easy for hackers to get into your data systems and make you and your organization easy victims, stealing your data, assuming your identity, and turning a good day into a nightmare. Perhaps now's the time for you to listen to George teach you how to change your habits so you can protect yourself. You really can't afford not to.
Do you ever awake in the morning, open your computer and wonder if you've been hacked during the night? Your identity stolen? Your database wiped out? If so, you need to listen carefully to my interview guest George Finney, cybersecurity expert. His goal is for you to become more vigilante, reviewing emails with better scrutiny and avoiding dangerous phishing emails that can invade your computer, your systems and your life.
Take it from me: I had my cell phone number stolen in January 2020 and with it my identity, my Google accounts, my Apple ID...I can keep going. It is not pretty, and if George can make you deadly serious about scrutinizing your emails more carefully, please give a listen.
In our technology-dependent culture, it becomes harder every day to keep up
with what’s safe and what's dangerous, especially with so many employees working from home. There’s no escaping the ultimate responsibility for protecting ourselves and our organizations from the very real cybersecurity threats that exist online, but it doesn’t have to be an overwhelming topic to tackle. That's where George comes in.
About George Finney
As Chief Information Security Officer (CISO) at Southern Methodist University, George Finney understands how our often-overlooked habits hold the solution to everyday cybersecurity challenges. In response, he developed a comprehensive approach that can help keep us secure online.
With nearly 20 years' experience, George has helped a wide variety of companies from startups to global telecommunications firms to nonprofits improve their security posture. He has been recognized by Security Magazine as a top cybersecurity leader and is a member of the Texas CISO Council. He is also the author of several books on cybersecurity, most recently Well Aware: Master the Nine Cybersecurity Habits to Protect Your Future, available Oct 20, 2020. You can connect with George through his LinkedIn page.
Want more advice on how to prepare for the future? Start with these
- Blog: Is Your Crisis Coming? Anthropology Can Help You Change To Avoid It.
- Podcast: Michael Davis—Cybersecurity: Pushing Defenders Ahead of Attackers
- Podcast: Michael Gale—The Digital Transformation Coming to You
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how you too can become a thought leader!
I had a lovely conversation recently with Bill Sherman, COO of Thought Leadership Leverage, an organization that supports thought leaders and the role they play in helping businesses understand how to develop and then capitalize on new ideas, growth strategies, and even their core purpose. In our podcast we discuss how thought leaders generate solutions to complex problems by helping companies large and small focus on their priorities. I urge you to listen in.
Watch our conversation here
Learn how to take your ideas and develop a scalable growth strategy
As you'll hear in our discussion, Bill's expertise lies in working with people who are doing thought leadership work inside their organizations and helping them creating a road map for growth that takes advantage of business opportunities. If you are thinking about how to take your expertise and experiences and turn them into a business of thought leaders, you might check out Bill’s website and listen to our podcast with his business partner, Peter Winick.
About Bill Sherman
Bill Sherman is a seasoned B2B thought leadership strategist for clients who want to get attention for their ideas, create impact and generate revenue. With Peter Winick, he is the co-host of the podcast Leveraging Thought Leadership which focuses on those in business who are responsible for their organization's thought leadership. Over his long and impressive career, Bill has consulted with a number of Fortune 500 and Global 1000 organizations that wanted to achieve impact by communicating powerful ideas that get people to think and act differently. When leading teams, he utilizes a wide range of cross-disciplinary skills including b2b marketing, marketing strategy, organizational design, strategic HR, product design and the psychology of influence.
You can contact Bill via LinkedIn, Twitter, his website or bill@thoughtleadershipleverage.com.
Want smart advice on how to grow? Check out these blogs and podcast
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Blog: Are You Ready to Find Your Blue Ocean® And Get Growing?
- Podcast: Michelle Turman—Positive Changes Needed To Keep Your Business Growing
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to break barriers and be the leader you want to be!
Shellye Archambeau is an amazing woman whom I was honored to interview. She has an illustrious career with a lot of firsts. But, as she will tell you, being the first African American woman to achieve her accomplishments was never easy. Instead, her career has been built on her aspirations and her ambitions. Her new book, due out in October, Unapologetically Ambitious: Take Risks, Break Barriers, and Create Success on Your Own Terms, powerfully tackles how you too can break through your own hurdles, road blocks and glass ceilings that might be holding you back. Want to surge ahead but not sure how? Listen in as Shellye tells us!
Watch our conversation here
A highly accomplished leader with an unassailable belief in herself
An experienced CEO and Board Director with an imporessive track record of building brands and high performance teams, Shellye has dynamically led technology-focused organizations for over 30 years. Her secret? "You just need a lot of personal belief in your own skills and a vision of yourself as a leader, able to break through and keep going." As I always say, If you can see it, you can be it!
Meet Shellye Archambeau
The former CEO of MetricStream, a GRC company based in Palo Alto, CA, Shellye Archambeau has held executive positions at numerous major companies, including a 15-year career at IBM where she became the first African American woman to gain an international assignment. As well as being a guest lecturer at her alma mater, the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, Shellye is an author and a regular contributor for Xconomy. She currently serves on the boards of Verizon, Nordstrom, Roper Technologies and Okta, and is also a strategic advisor to the Royal Bank of Canada, Capital Markets Group and Forbes Ignite.
Throughout her career, Shellye has received numerous awards and recognitions, including being named one of the Top 25 Click and Mortar Executives by Internet World, 46 Most Important African Americans In Technology by the Business Insider, 25 Most Influential African Americans In Technology and 50 Most Important African Americans in Technology. In 2015, she was ranked 97th in the annual Newsmax "100 Most Influential Business Leaders in America" ranking.
You can contact Shellye through her website.
Want more stories about barrier-breaking women? Here are three
- Blog: Rising To The Occasion, Women Are Proving To Be The Heroines In This Crisis
- Blog: How Smart Fearless Women Are Breaking The Barriers Of Business
- Podcast: Pat Shea—Use Your Passions To Become Who You Want To Be
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to leverage the power of LinkedIn!
I met JD Gershbein through Peter Winick’s Thought Leadership Leverage roundtables which he so graciously invited me to join. JD is a LinkedIn expert and really understands how to help you leverage the world of social media. Our conversation focuses on the approaches you can take to create your own personal brand. Remember, the story you share becomes who you are, not just a story. And sharing that story, building a personal brand, and creating a business around “you” are essential in today’s new “normal." Don't miss this opportunity to learn from a true innovator.
Watch our interview here
Sharing your story has always been essential
But now you have a number of platforms to help you build that story: LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. Think about it. They offer you access to all those people you would like to reach. Where to start? Pick a focus and then listen to JD help you learn how social media and social networking along with social selling is the wave of the future, today.
Meet JD Gershbein
Bringing a keen sense of observation and a distinctive voice to the global stage, JD Gershbein draws upon his background in neuroscience, psychology and the humanities to offer a unique depth and breadth of understanding of social media, combining multiple disciplines into a uniquely artistic expression.
A highly recognized LinkedIn strategist, JD is forging new inroads as the founder and architect of a professional development platform that encompasses a stage show (revue), an original web-based video series, a theatrical podcast, and his own live, highly- interactive educational events.
JD is a broadcast media contributor on LinkedIn for business (both TV and radio), as well as a contributing writer for The Huffington Post, Forbes, NBC and SUCCESS Online. Additionally, he is the creative force behind a burgeoning media broadcast platform and the host of his own webcast/podcast, The Electric Narrative with JD Gershbein.
You can contact JD via LinkedIn or his website.
Want to learn more about successfully extending your reach? Try these
- Blog: Why Social Media Is Crucial To Your Marketing Strategy
- Blog: Calculating The ROI Of Social Media
- Podcast: Sarah Wilson—See How Great PR Can Build A Better Story For YOU
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to overcome challenges and hurdle over obstacles!
Tracy Higginbotham is an amazing woman who is dedicated to inspiring women to excel in business, sports and life. She is the founder and president of Women TIES (Women Together Inspiring Entrepreneurial Success), which I fell in love with as I learned how hard Tracy and her members were all working to help women succeed. You will hear us discuss her own personal journey and her determination to overcome challenges that could have easily stopped her in her tracks. Instead, she hurdled over the obstacles and became an amazing leader, helping others thrive. I know you will be as inspired as I was. Please enjoy.
You can watch our interview here
Believing in the buying and selling power of women
Women TIES specializes in promoting, publicizing and uniting women entrepreneurs and their companies. Its members understand that if women don’t help each other, it will be hard for any of us to succeed. And by building strong economic relationships, women can more effectively advance their companies and eradicate pay inequality.
Meet Tracy Higginbotham
In 1995, Tracy Chamberlain Higginbotham created her first company, Five Star Events, an events management company. Then 10 years later, she embraced her passion for supporting other women entrepreneurs and established her second company, Women TIES, to create a stronger geographic buying network for women business owners across New York.
In 2011, Tracy created the “Women’s Athletic Network,” a division of Women TIES which promotes athletic events for women entrepreneurs to train for, participate in or support as spectators. Six years later, she created a “Women’s Rights Equality" division to unite women who want to get involved with women's equality issues. From 2017-2018, she was the North America Leader of 261 Fearless, Inc., a global running organization, then its North America Head of Club Promotional Outreach.
Tracy’s commitment to supporting women entrepreneurship has been recognized by the Small Business Administration twice (2005 and 2011) for her significant contribution as an outstanding small business person and for her dedicated support of small business. She has received numerous other awards as well, including the WCNY “Women Who Make America Award,” Women in Business Award, 25 Women in Leadership Award, 40 Under 40 Award and the SUNY Oswego Alumni Association Community Service Award.
In 2019, Tracy published her first book, “Under the Rose-Colored Hat," an inspirational story of the true meaning of beauty, strength and acceptance of oneself especially when challenges arise.
Tracy is a graduate of the State University of New York at Oswego where she earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Administration and post graduate studies in Business Management. You can contact her through her website, tracyhigginbotham.com.
Want more stories of resilience and perseverence? Here are three
- Blog: Try This Simple Strategy For Finding Your Inner Resilience
- Podcast: David Rendall—The Freak Factor: Discovering Uniqueness by Flaunting Weakness
- Podcast: Elisa Spain—How To Create A Post-Career Life With Meaning
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to find your grit and be a better leader!
Shannon Polson was introduced to me through Peter Winick’s Thought Leadership Leverage organization when we were both attending one of Peter's Tuesday lunch hour conversations. I just loved her grit and her personal story, and felt it was important to share it. Shannon was one of the first women to fly Apache helicopters, then became a writer, and now she is developing a program to help women create their own “True Grit.” Believing that conversations, words and books can change the way we see each other and actually change the world, she has made it her job to inspire and transform. We join with her in her mission. Please make sure you listen in.
*To watch our conversation, click on the image below*
Inspiring other leaders in ways she would have liked to be inspired herself
What I particularly like about Shannon is how she uses storytelling to help people develop the skills they need to become better leaders, find their creative solutions, and overcome the ingrained resistance to change which so many of us exhibit.
What would it take for your people to connect to their own sense of grit?
As one of the first women to fly the Apache helicopter in the U.S. Army, Shannon Polson's career spans almost a decade as an Army officer and attack aviation leader around the globe, as well as five years leading and managing in the corporate sector at Guidant and Microsoft. Today, Shannon uses her experience in the cockpit and the boardroom to speak to major companies and organizations around the world to overcome resistance, connect to their core purpose, lead from the heart, and commit to courageous ownership under the most challenging conditions.
When writing her soon-to-be released book, "The Grit Factor: Courage, Resilience and Leadership in the Most MaleDominated Organization in the World," Shannon connected with fellow trailblazing women who shared with her their candid stories of leading at the highest levels in the most complicated, challenging and male-dominated organization in the world, the U.S. military. Now she devotes herself to speaking, writing and training through the organization she founded, The Grit Institute, whose mission is to inspire leaders at all levels, especially those in transition or navigating change. It is a wonderful, vaulable resource worth investigating for your own team.
You can contact Shannon through her website.
Want more stories of terrific women leaders? We recommend these:
- Blog: 3 Ways A Female CEO Built A Successful Business With A Culture of Collaboration
- Blog: How Women in Leadership Roles Can Finally Change The Workplace
- Podcast: Lisa Caputo—Smashing The Myths Of What Women Can Accomplish
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to finally solve office politics!
In this podcast with Nancy Halpern, I had the amazing opportunity to learn more about how she helps companies find workable solutions to that awful problem of office politics. You might think they just come with the territory, that office cultures are all the same: inherently competitive, male-driven and toxic. Well, maybe that is not true. And it doesn’t have to be for your organization. Nancy will help you see how to use her proprietary Political IQ model to assess your organization and pinpoint the sources of the disruptions that are threatening your workplace — particularly during these times of remote work and a new normal. If you want to focus on what matters most and get things done, I urge you to listen.
Watch our podcast by clicking on the image below
Who is Nancy Halpern?
A nationally recognized leadership consultant and true pioneer in the field of talent development, Nancy Halpern effectively diagnoses then helps solve political dysfunction in organizations. Leveraging thought leadership and intellectual capital from over 20 years of client engagements, she helps companies find solutions to the age-old problem of office politics. Creating customized solutions that dismantle silos, create effective communications and build dynamic cross-functional teams, Nancy help leaders both retain and develop key talent while achieving measurable business results.
Nancy’s client list ranges from large Fortune 500 corporations to startups and includes Bank of America, Dow Jones, Nestlé, Novartis, Columbia University, Condé Nast, Ogilvy & Mather, Price Waterhouse Cooper, Pfizer, The World Bank and Baker McKenzie, among others. Having worked with teams in Japan, Thailand, South Africa, Singapore, Switzerland and the UK, Nancy has the unique ability to engage across cultures to help organizations create sustainable change.
You can contact Nancy at nancy@nancyhalpern.com or through her website nancyhalpern.com.
To learn more about how to bring about culture change, start with these:
- Blog: Can People And Businesses Really, Truly Change? Yes! Here's How
- Blog: Hate Change? Anthropology Can Make You and Your People Love It!
- Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It's Necessary!
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how anthropology is transforming the world of business!
As a corporate anthropologist, I love bringing to our listeners other great anthropologists who can help them see the application of anthropology in action. Think about your own challenges as you hear about Rita Denny and her journey of discovery. In my work with clients, I often refer to her book, “Handbook of Anthropology in Business,” co-edited with Patricia Sunderland, in which they discuss dozens of ways that the theory, method and tools of anthropology can be innovatively applied in business settings across the globe. We can all benefit from what Rita has to tell us!
At SAMC we were honored this year to be voted the “Corporate Anthropology Consultancy in New York for 2020,” just one reason why it's such a pleasure to share with you this great woman anthropologist. Learn more about and hire more anthopologists. They can help you “see, feel and think” in new ways. Particularly in today's economic and social disruptions, you might find a new perspective is just what you and your business need.
About Rita Denny
Currently the executive director of EPIC, a global community of practitioners doing ethnographic work, Rita Denny applies an anthropological framework to consumer behavior across the globe, calling on linguistic, semiotic and symbolic traditions for interpreting attitudes, perceptions and practices. Her work has supported strategic development of products, services and brands as well as communications strategies for Fortune Global 500 companies, government agencies and public institutions.
A founding partner of the consultancy firm Practica Group and co-editor and co-author of award winning books considered foundational volumes in ethnography in business, Rita is a pillar of the business anthropology world. She is a wellspring of inspiration for those wanting to reimagine the world of possibilities for ethnography in industry and beyond.
Rita holds a Ph.D. in anthropology from the University of Chicago. You can contact her through LinkedIn.
To learn how anthropology could transform your business, start with these:
- Blog: Innovative Applications of Corporate Anthropology in Business
- Blog: Hate Change? Anthropology Can Make You and Your People Love It!
- Podcast: Ask Andi—How Anthropology Helps People See Things With Fresh Eyes
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to hear, understand and honor those
who are different from us
I had the wonderful opportunity to meet Gail Hayes through Peter Winick’s group of thought leaders. Gail was as curious about thought leadership as I was. What we found and then wanted to share with our listeners is how innovative thinking is essential in today’s fast-changing, totally disrupted world. You'll hear how Gail found herself a single mom raising two children without much of a job. Yet, she rethought herself, turned those proverbial “lemons into lemonade” and discovered a new “Gail,” offering exceptional programs for people of all races and perspectives. Her role is to help you see things through a fresh lens — just as we at SAMC do. Take a listen!
Wisdom for our times from Gail
Need a lift? Then help someone stand. Need inspiration? Then encourage someone who is down. Need kindness? Then expend grace. It's your choice. You receive in abundance what you give in abundance!
Some of the important truths we talked about
- Blackness and whiteness and how we can learn to love each other and live together
- Toilet paper levels the playing field
- How we need to honor the experiences and viewpoints of those different from us
- Empowering women to become the women they want to be
- How to take adversity and turn it into an opportunity
To watch our interview click on the image below
About Dr. Gail Hayes
An internationally recognized communicator and thought leader, Dr. Gail Hayes ignites every environment with contagious enthusiasm and a passion for purpose. An Executive Leadership Coach, media personality and award-winning author of numerous books, Gail has lived multiple years in Asia and Europe, enabling her to communicate fluidly and effectively across cultural lines. In addition, she founded and served as the Director of the European Executive Women's Forum, the first active European Network of the National Association for Female Executives (NAFE).
Not only was Dr. Gail the first African American female law enforcement officer and firefighter in Chapel Hill, NC, she also served as the first African American Chair of the Orange County Commission for Women. She has worked on Capitol Hill for the National Governors Association, receiving the Outstanding Leadership in State Government award. Dr. Gail is currently CEO of the Handle Your Business Girl Empowerment Zone.
Dr. Gail has authored numerous books including:
You can reach Gail at Twitter or LinkedIn or email her here.
Want more stories of resilience and rising above difficulties? Here are three
- Blog: Rising To The Occasion, Women Are Proving To Be The Heroines In This Crisis
- Podcast: Ask Andi—How to Learn Resilience
- Podcast: Lisa Caputo—Smashing The Myths Of What Women Can Accomplish
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear about the joy of volunteering and giving to others
I met Pat Shea through the Women’s Business Collaborative and couldn’t be happier to get to know her. Here is a woman who has a purpose and a passion to help others and wants to share her story. During our podcast, we talk about her own journey and the many twists and turns that led her to where she is today. Now, she has created an innovative platform to help companies and their employees give to others. Here is her story. I urge you to pause and take a listen.
About Pat Shea
Patricia Glaser Shea is a visionary leader who integrates a passion for social impact and business savvy to launch new ideas, build community and lead organizations into the future. Currently, she is President and CEO of Givful, a technology startup she co-founded that automates and simplifies workplace giving and volunteering. Named the 2020 Startup of the Year by the Nashville Technology Council, Givful provides employers and their associates with the ability to create a culture of giving, drive community impact, and launch corporate social responsibility initiatives. Before launching Givful, she was President and CEO of the YWCA of Nashville and Middle Tennessee.
In lasting, substantive ways, Pat has changed the conversation around domestic violence. She founded MEND, an initiative that recognizes men's responsibility in reducing gender violence. She established the YWCA Advocacy Committee, worked with legislators to strengthen domestic violence laws in Tennessee, launched Girls Inc. and re-opened Dress for Success — Nashville.
Continually looking for ways to empower women, Pat founded the Nashville Chapter of Women Presidents' Organization, an international organization of women business owners who have guided their businesses to success, and she has remained its Nashville Chair since 2010.
Before becoming a nonprofit leader, Shea was a thriving private-sector entrepreneur, creating and leading consulting organizations within HCA/Quorum and co-founding Echelon Health, a startup focused on women's health services.
Pat holds a degree in business from the University of Dayton and is a graduate of Leadership Nashville and Leadership Tennessee. She is a board member for Go West Creative, a founding director of Studio Bank and BrainTrust, a board member for the Center for Nonprofit Management, an advisory board member for Advancing Women In Nashville (AWIN), a member of International Women's Forum — Tennessee Chapter, and the recipient of numerous business and philanthropic awards.
You can contact Pat via LinkedIn or patriciaglasershea@gmail.com.
Want more stories of women having a vision and boldly making it happen?
- Blog: How Brilliant Fearless Women Are Rewriting The Script In Hollywood
- Podcast: Sarah Soule—Busting Those Stereotypes of Women
- Podcast: Lisa Caputo—Smashing The Myths Of What Women Can Accomplish
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to really, authentically, share your hidden wisdom
Jeremy Segal has a fascinating story to share. His life is a series of successes that follow no pattern or a straight line. He is never sure where he is heading but off he goes, and on the way, builds followers and fans...and businesses that are remarkable. In today’s podcast, Jeremy tells you all about his journey and challenges you to rethink your own. Get ready to learn and grow!
About Jeremy Segal
Jeremy struggled to speak in groups, on stage and online. Prior to launching his podcast, Why Influence, he had a personal Facebook page he very rarely used and a LinkedIn and that was it! He never shared ideas online or in groups, and definitely never spoke on stage. Then his wife gave him a gift — a membership in a local Toastmaster group. It took him a long time to cash it in, but after attending some local mastermind groups, he realized how much value he really had. He just needed to learn how to talk to people.
From his own life experiences, he saw how he could help entrepreneurs take leaps in mindsets and overcome major roadblocks. He realized that he’s not alone, that there’s a lot of hidden knowledge out there waiting to be shared with the world.
Hoping to inspire others, like himself, to share their hidden knowledge and wisdom, Jeremy started Why Influence. And, he wanted to surround himself with people who are authentically and vulnerably sharing. What might you have to share with the world?
You can contact Jeremy at LinkedIn, Twitter or his podcast.
Want to learn more about overcoming obstacles so you can soar?
- Blog: Like Helen Keller, You Too Can Triumph Over Your Obstacles And See With A Fresh Lens
- Blog: Why Organizations Should Encourage Employees to Recognize Mistakes and Learn From Them
- Podcast: Anthony Willoughby—How to Lead Your Organization With Trust And Courage
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to transform yourself, your work, and our global challenges.
In this podcast, Graham Boyd and I talk about his passion for helping people see things in new ways. He asks big questions, like, Why is climate change not changing us and why aren’t we addressing it? Why has the coronavirus immobilized some countries and their leadership, particularly the U.S., when China knew what to do from its earlier experience with SARS1 and could have shown others how to respond quickly and effectively? What is it about us humans that keeps us from seeing ourselves in healthy ways so we can help each other thrive? Listen in!
What if we could create an economy that works for the planet, for people, and for profit?
As Graham puts it so eloquently on his website, "We can rise, phoenix-like, from today’s burning global challenges. All of us, and our children, can thrive in the coming decades, because we can build a regenerative global economy: an ecosystem of regenerative businesses."
Applying the expertise he has gathered across three careers (particle physicist, manager with Procter and Gamble, and serial startup founder), Graham is currently focused on bringing to reality his vision of helping improve people's lives. To help get out the message that there is a new way to build businesses and an economy that truly works for all people, Graham and co-author Jack Reardon have written a new book, "Picasso and Einstein: the Economy, Leadership and You," which you can read part of here.
About Graham Boyd, PhD: CEO & Founder, Evolutesix
A CEO, serial entrepreneur, particle physicist, disruptive innovator, author and speaker, Graham Boyd's passion is making a difference in the world by incubating and investing in adaptive, self-organizing, developmental, FairShares Commons companies. He recently transformed an international non-profit into three for-profits, and is now starting a seed-stage investment fund for ecosystems of regenerative startups. He also consults to multi-nationals and startups on harnessing conflict to drive their own regeneration. During his career, he has worked in the UK, China, Germany, Belgium, Japan, South Africa and Italy.
Born in a small town in Zimbabwe, Graham grew up as a white teenager in apartheid South Africa during the 1970s and 80s. He now says that his experiences during those years developed his belief that freedom is the strongest foundation we can build on, that we can be fully unique and together as one, and that hidden options can be found to resolve highly complex, nebulous and high-stakes challenges.
Graham recently gave an online talk to the RSA on creating an economy fit for a crisis, which you can watch here. You can contact Graham via Twitter, LinkedIn or his website graham-boyd.biz.
Want more stories of people finding new ways of bringing change to the world?
- Podcast: Rick Barton and Kit Lunney—Can We Bring Peace To The World Today?
- Podcast: Dr. Mandeep Rai—Do You Need A New Compass To Direct Your Values
- Podcast: Todd Cherches—Want To Lead Better? You Must Visualize The New, Not Fear It
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to “see” where you want your team to go
At SAMC, we often work with people who need or want to change. That’s our job as corporate anthropologists. And what we have learned over the years is that people hate to change unless they can literally see what it is they have to move toward. The human brain is designed to keep us in today’s habits and not let us wander too far astray. But if you can see something new, you can begin to visualize how you can adapt it for yourself. In fact, without visualizing or experiencing the new, you don’t know what it is. You flee it or fear it. You are never sure what “it” is. In this podcast, I bring to you Todd Cherches who has just published a new book about Visual Leadership. It's said, if you can see it you can be it. Listen in as Todd shows us why this is true.
Todd teaches you how to “see, feel and think” in new ways by visualizing what it is you are asking others to do
As you know, we preach the same thing. We need to let the eyes capture the new ideas and turn them into new stories, new visualizations, or we make up those new stories. And, we decide with the heart, so we have to feel the things someone is asking us to do. You will find that our conversation is very visual, which is why I include a video of our podcast. How else will you “see” what Todd wants you to experience.
To watch and listen to our interview, click on the image below.
About Todd Cherches
Todd Cherches is the CEO and co-founder of BigBlueGumball, an NYC-based consulting firm specializing in leadership development, public speaking and executive coaching. He is a three-time award-winning Adjunct Professor of Leadership in the Human Capital Management master's program at NYU, and a lecturer on leadership at Columbia University. He is also a TEDx speaker (“The Power of Visual Thinking”) and an author ("VisuaLeadership: Leveraging the Power of Visual Thinking in Leadership and in Life"). You can connect with Todd via LinkedIn, Twitter and Facebook.
Ready to embrace change or avoiding it? Try reading/listening to these:
- Blog: Can People And Businesses Really, Truly Change? Yes! Here's How
- Blog: Is Your Crisis Coming? Anthropology Can Help You Change To Avoid It.
- Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It's Necessary!
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how we're much more similar than different
I was so delighted to meet Dr. Mandeep Rai. She was referred to me by Sarah Wilson, a wonderful publicist. Dr. Rai has just completed her new book, "The Values Compass: What 101 Countries Teach Us About Purpose, Life, and Leadership," the culmination of her research in 101 countries around the world. She was fascinated by the similarities among very different people, as well as the unique ways in which they "live" their cultures. You will come away from our discussion with insights that can help you live a better life. Don't miss this very special interview!
Though individually unique, humans are one species spread across the globe
We are not 7.8 billion different ants. While we all have different values and beliefs, when you dig deeper you realize that we humans have, by and large, many of the same values and beliefs and many identical ways of doing things, regardless of whether we’re in a cold climate or a hot one, in the rainforest or in the desert. We have kinfolk, we live in families of different types, we have children in similar if ways, and we create and share stories that help protect our values and beliefs.
This is what Dr. Rai learned on her golbal discovery journey, and in turn, she now is helping us learn more about ourselves as people. "The Values Compass" is a very timely book and a great one to share on our podcast.
The Dalai Lama writes this about Dr. Rai's work:
“The Values Compass takes us into the hearts, minds, and traditions of the cultures and people of the world. It demonstrates how interconnected we are and how the divisions that exist between us stem from acting with narrow self-interest rather than concern for the good of our human family. I hope that the book will contribute to making our world a happier place.”
And we hope you have a wonderful time listening to Dr. Rai and me dig into her insights. Enjoy.
About Dr. Mandeep Rai
Working with companies, institutions and individuals around the world, Dr. Mandeep Rai is a global authority on values. She has traveled to more than 150 countries and has reported as a broadcast journalist for the BBC World Service and Reuters, among others. She began her career in private banking at JPMorgan, and later worked for the United Nations, the European Commission and several grassroots NGOs before establishing the UAE’s first media venture capital fund.
She studied philosophy, politics and economics, earning an MSc in development from the London School of Economics, an MBA from London Business School and a PhD in global values. She has also studied at MIT and Harvard Business School. You can contact Dr. Rai via her website.
Want to learn more about culture? We recommend these:
- Blog: How's Your Culture? Doing Fine Or In Drastic Need Of An Overhaul?
- Podcast: Ask Andi—How Do You Change Your Culture?
- Podcast: Gustavo Grodnitzky—Culture Trumps Everything!
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to take your communication skills from good to great!
Do you find yourself full of great ideas but struggle to tell others about them? Do you become shy and quiet every time you have to make a presentation? Maybe it’s even difficult to have conversations with your family. In this podcast I bring you Monique Russell, a premier executive communications coach who will share with you how to really communicate what you want to say in an effective way. I know this is a podcast and you’re listening, but you don’t have to see Monique to hear what she wants you to learn. You come to this podcast because you’re curious. And Monique has a perspective that I think you are going to find very exciting to listen to. Join us!
You can watch my interview with Monique here:
A communications roadblock is also an opportunity
As Monique tells us, “Right now, you may have achieved great success in gaining recognition for your good ideas and expertise, but you haven’t connected in a way in which others recognize the full value and quality of your leadership. It’s hard to connect, and others don’t seem to understand or buy into the full vision of where you see the team heading.”
The opportunity? A time to learn new skills and polish your emerging style.
About Monique Russell
Originally from The Bahamas and Nigeria, Monique is the communications expert you want on your team. Founder of Clear Communication Solutions, an international training, coaching and consulting firm that teaches effective communications and leadership skills, she is passionate about teaching women leaders and teams how to turn "likes" into "loves" in their businesses and in their lives.
Major organizations such as Centers for Disease Control, Verizon, Intel, Equifax and the world’s busiest airport, Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport, trust Monique to teach effective communication strategies that foster connection, community, creativity and courage. You can too! You can contact Monique here.
Want to communicate more effectively? Start with these:
- Blog: 6 Management Traits That Successful Leaders Share
- Podcast: Dave McKeown—The Need For Self-Evolved Leadership
- Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to navigate crises in an emotionally healthy way
I was so delighted to meet Dr. Elia Gourgouris and Konstantinos Apostolopoulos that I wanted to share them with you on our podcast. These are two amazing men. They are both of Greek backgrounds and, as you may know, I did my doctoral research on Greek immigrants and Greek culture. To say we had a lot in common is an understatement. What did we talk about? The pandemic, of course, and the new book they wrote in 45 days. That’s right. They decided they had wisdom to share that could help guide people through the COVID-19 crisis, so they put their heads down and made it happen. There are so many great lessons here for all of us. Listen in!
"Points to Ponder", "Questions to Consider" and "Action Items"
In our podcast, Dr. Elia, Konstantinos (Kon) and I focused on their "guidebook," which sounds rather funny referring to such a horrible disease ravaging our country and the world. Called "7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis: A Practical Guide to Emotionally Dealing with Pandemics & Other Disasters," this book is essential reading for everyone if they are going to emerge emotionally sound from the chaos of this crisis. Dr. Elia has been speaking, virtually, to audiences around the globe about the powerful yet practical insights contained in the book. At the same time, Kon has been coaching individuals and groups to help them cope with the stress of remote work, as well as the isolation, fear and anxiety that come with the lack of certainty and clarity. Two men doing good work.
In our discussion, the three of us talk at length about how to minimize the negative impact of pandemics, natural disasters, financial meltdowns or any other major disruptions on our lives. Drawing from their personal and professional experiences, Dr. Elia and Kon share with us simple truths that have helped many of their clients thrive in the face of adversity. After listening to this podcast, you will have learned ways to take charge and lead yourself and others forward.
About Dr. Elia and Kon
Dr. Elia Gourgouris is the Founder of The Happiness Center, a project of the Art of Living Foundation, an organization of leading experts in the field of positive psychology that has helped thousands of individuals achieve personal and professional happiness, success and wellness. In addition to co-authoring "7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis: A Practical Guide to Emotionally Dealing with Pandemics & Other Disasters" with Konstantinos Apostolopoulos, Dr. Gourgouris is a widely recognized international keynote speaker. You can contact him at LinkedIn.
Konstantinos (Kon) Apostolopoulos is the Founder and CEO of Fresh Biz Solutions, a human capital management consulting group that helps organizations develop their staff and improve business results. In addition to co-authoring "7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis: A Practical Guide to Emotionally Dealing with Pandemics & Other Disasters" with Dr. Elia Gourgouris, Kon is a regular contributor to the Thrive Global and Achievers Engagement blogs. He also helps develop young soccer players in local, state and Olympic Development programs. You can contact him at kon@freshbizsolutions.com.
Want more tips for dealing with disruptive change? We recommend these:
- Blog: Now That You Have Your Crisis, What Do You Change?
- Blog: No Time To Be Afraid Of This Blurry Future
- Podcast: David Avrin—It’s Going to Get Worse, So You Better Get Better
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how real peace can be accomplished in the world
I had the pleasure of meeting Ambassador Rick Barton when he was Assistant Secretary of the Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations under Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. He joins us on the podcast today to share with you his perspective on how to bring peace to the world — not a simple subject. Joining him is his very successful wife, Kathryn (Kit) Lunney. Together they share their perspectives on their journeys throughout the world trying to understand conflicts and find ways to bring people together to end them. This is truly one you do not want to miss.
Peace starts with a willingness to understand both sides of a conflict
As Ambassador Barton tells us, the only way you will really know about conflict is to be there and see it with your own eyes, listen to people tell you their stories, and try to help them craft new stories that might reduce their pain, eleviate their hatred for others, and meliorate the horrifying results that come from the failure of peace. The work he describes in our podcast will help you realize how important it is for us all to work toward peace and find ways to stop the pain that separates us.
In his book, "Peace Works: America's Unifying Role in a Turbulent World," Ambassador Barton states that “leadership is most likely to be effective if there is a sincere effort to develop a common understanding of what is most important, a clear set of priority actions, an integrated team, independent measures of progress and tireless communication. Over the past twenty years, I worked in 40-plus countries, always finding local people and opportunities to catalyze progress. When you expand trust, seek innovation, and encourage ingenuity, risk-taking is rewarded.”
About Rick Barton and Kit Lunney
Frederick D. (Rick) Barton currently teaches at Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs, where, with his wife, Kit Lunney, he serves as Co-Director of the Scholars in the Nation’s Service Initiative (SINSI) and the Richard H. Ullman Fellowship. His 2018 book, "Peace Works: America's Unifying Role in a Turbulent World," uses a mix of stories, history and analysis to offer an affirmative approach to foreign affairs through concrete and attainable solutions.
Ambassador Barton was the U.S. ambassador to the UN's Economic and Social Council, the UN’s Deputy High Commissioner for Refugees in Geneva, and the first Assistant Secretary of State for Conflict and Stabilization Operations. He founded USAID's (U.S. Agency for International Development) Office of Transition Initiatives and has led conflict management initiatives in over 40 crisis zones across the globe, including Haiti, Iraq, Nigeria, Burma, Pakistan and Turkey. His articles are published in numerous international outlets and he is a frequent guest on news broadcasts, ranging from NPR to all of the major networks. He now resides in Washington, D.C. with his wife of 44 years, Kit Lunney. You can contact Rick at barton@princeton.edu.
Kathryn R. (Kit) Lunney, with her husband, Ambassador Rick Barton, is Co-Director of the Scholars in the Nation’s Service Initiative (SINSI) and the Richard H. Ullman Fellowship at Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs. Previously, Kit was the first state court planner for Maine’s judicial system, an intergovernmental relations officer at the U.S. Department of Transportation, and deputy general counsel at the U.S. Department of Commerce.
As co-leader of Book Relief, First Book’s response to the 2005 Gulf Coast hurricanes, Kit worked with the U.S. Department of Education, state and local governments, and hundreds of nonprofits and individuals to deliver 5 million new books to more than 2,200 groups and organizations in 20 states impacted by the storms. In the private sector, Lunney worked as counsel to two technology companies in Maine. Most recently, she was COO of and then a consultant to Smith Dawson & Andrews, a government and public affairs firm based in Washington, D.C. You can contact Kit at klunney@princeton.edu.
Want more stories about people changing the world? Here are three:
- Podcast: Sevetri Wilson—How To Make Sure Money Flows To Where The Need Is
- Podcast: Lisa Broderick—How To Build Peaceful Communities With Our Peace Officers
- Podcast: Theresa Carrington—Transforming Impoverished Artisans Into Entrepreneurs
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to be an effective transpersonal leader!
In our podcast with Danielle Grant, co-author of the book "Leading Beyond the Ego" with John Knights and Greg Young, you will learn a great deal about transpersonal leadership. This new approach takes us beyond the theories of Daniel Goleman on Emotional Intelligence and the power of focus which all great leaders possess. Transpersonal leaders add the essential dimension of spiritual intelligence. It is not enough to be smart with a great IQ or emotionally intelligent with a wonderful sense of empathy and EQ. Today’s leader must focus on caring, ethical cultures and sustainability, as they lead others to exceptional performance. Listen in!
Think about your own leadership style through a fresh lens
Transpersonal leaders embrace the disruptors of the 21st century by thinking radically while being ethical and authentic...in other words, operating beyond the ego. According to today's guest Danielle, this will result in better performing, sustainable organizations that are more caring, productive and exciting places to work. Additionally, this kind of leadership will have a positive impact on the world in which we live.
You will learn:
- How transpersonal leaders operate beyond their egos, personal development and learning
- To become a transpersonal leader, you must be fully aware of your values and how to adjust them
If you're interested, Danielle's company, LeaderShape Global, offers an ICF accredited Transpersonal Leadership Coach Training program, in which participants learn how to employ cognitive, emotional, intuitive and spiritual concepts and competencies, together with recent research in neuroscience. You can learn more here.
About Danielle Grant
Director of LeaderShape Global, Danielle has many years' experience coaching and facilitating programs at the CEO and Director level. A former businesswoman, she is a thought leader in blended learning methodologies. You can contact her at info@leadershapeglobal.com.
Want to learn more about what makes a great leader? Start here:
- Blog: Demonstrate Leadership Through Emotional Self-Regulation And Maturity
- Blog: Four Steps For Being An Effective Leader
- Podcast: Dave McKeown—The Need For Self-Evolved Leadership
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how change can keep your business moving forward!
At times we are introduced to people by chance, only to find that they are amazing individuals whom we want to be part of our world. This was how I felt about Melissa Davies when we met, and why we wanted you to know more about her and the work she does to help others change. Founder of Wise Ways Consulting, a leadership development and executive coaching firm, Melissa helps clients become better leaders so they can build more productive and effective teams. Like me, Melissa is a culture change expert, so you can guess we had a lot to talk about!
Being willing to change is a key attribute of strong leaders
Melissa’s world travels have taught her a great deal about cultural similarities and differences—those things we all share and that all organizations have in common, and those unique cultural customs that are trademarks of the “way we do it here.”
Similar to what we do at SAMC, Melissa and her team work to bring about change in individuals and organizations. And what she has found over the years is that businesses' training and coaching needs are constantly evolving to reflect increasingly diverse workforces, remote offices and technology. This means that what she and her team are offering also need to be constantly changing and evolving.
3 areas of mutual interest which Melissa and I spoke about:
- How hard it is for people to see themselves honestly, and to understand how their organization is operating, truthfully. People see things with willful blindness, only noticing what fits their own perception of their realities.
- When people finally have an“aha” moment, they really can change.
- Methods and tools which can help companies make the needed transformations that keep them moving forward.
About Melissa Davies
An internationally respected coach, trainer and project facilitator, Melissa Davies began her consulting career in her native Canada where she earned her honors degree from the University of Victoria in British Columbia. A career-long educator, Melissa has a unique ability to quickly establish rapport with audiences that allows her to effectively lead sessions in strategic planning, team effectiveness, mission development, organizational assessment, conflict resolution, mediation, change management and cultural development.
Melissa believes that instilling effective communication and leadership skills creates an appreciation of the diversity in ourselves and members of our society. You can contact her at her website, Wise Ways Consulting, LinkedIn or info@wisewaysconsulting.com.
How does being open to change make you a better leader? Some answers here:
- Blog: What Time Is It? Time To Change
- Blog: Now That You Have Your Crisis, What Do You Change?
- Podcast: Michael Tate—Are You Terrified Of The Pain Of Change?
- Webinar: Mastering the Process of Change
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn why it's not what you think, it's what your brain does
I bet you have often wondered why you hear people say one thing and then do the opposite. Or, perhaps you know you should do one thing but then find yourself going in another direction. To find answers, behavioral economists study why people are so predictably irrational, which by the way, includes each of us. In this podcast, I speak with a behavioral economist whom you are going to love listening to, Melina Palmer. Afterward, you won't think of your brain the same way!
What is behavioral economics? Why does it matter to you?
Melina Palmer, host of The Brainy Business Podcast, has dedicated her career to seeking answers to these questions for herself and her clients. In these uncertain times, it's more important than ever to make sure your message is properly communicating with the brain of your customer. Small things make a big difference. In one study, states Melina's website, changing a single word in an ad resulted in a 38% increase in sales. Worth paying attention to!
Want to understand why we do what we do? Key takeaways from our interview:
- What we have learned as we study the human brain.
- How we make decisions with the subconscious leading the way and overriding the conscious mind.
- Why framing, anchoring and adjusting are so important. (If you see a sign in a store for 10 bottles for $10, and another sign for the same bottles at $1 each, which do you buy, 10 individual bottles or the 10 for $10? You guessed it. The way something is framed greatly influences how you decide what to do.)
- How to skillfully use these concepts to persuade someone to agree to a higher or lower number or quantity. This helps close sales, increase conversions and steer negotiations.
- Our brains are all about shortcuts. When your subconscious brain doesn’t know the answer to something, it makes a guess.
About Melina Palmer
Melina was the first person to graduate from the University of Washington’s Global Honors Program with a degree in business. Her senior thesis was presented at the Association of Consumer Research Symposium in Hyderabad, India. A lifelong learner, she then pursued a Master’s in Behavioral Economics from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology.
Through her company, The Brainy Business, Melina works with organizations and entrepreneurs to understand and master the small changes that make product programs, pricing, change initiatives, branding, internal communication and marketing messages “brain friendly,” increasing engagement and ROI.
You can learn more about Melina on her website, The Brainy Business, or her podcast.
Want to learn more about the role the brain plays in business? Try these
- Blog: How To Get Your Brain To Let Go Of Its Old Bad Habits
- Podcast: Holly Green—Tapping Into Your Brain to Build Better Relationships
- Podcast: Roger Dooley—Neuromarketing Made Easy
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how one woman is opening the door for hundreds of others
Michelle Richards has been working with women in Michigan and throughout the US since she completed college. Her passion is in helping women start and grow their own businesses. As funding is often the biggest challenge, you will learn in our podcast how she helps women and minorities find the funding they need and rethink their businesses for these fast-changing times. She is truly an in-the-trenches warrior, advocating for level playing fields for those who too often are overlooked, ignored or left behind. I find her story incredibly inspiring and I know you will too.
You can watch my interview with Michelle here:
More about Michelle Richards
A founding board member of the Great Lakes Women’s Business Council, Michelle has served as its Executive Director since its inception in 1984. A Michigan-based nonprofit organization, Great Lakes WBC is committed to empowering women and minorities economically through access to capital assistance programs, business development training, vendor certification and business-to-business networking.
Undeniably, access to microcredit is one of the most important tools needed for economic justice. Under Michelle’s leadership, Great Lakes WBC was one of the first microloan programs in the country. Its small business loan program has distributed over $5.5 million in microloans and created 1800 jobs across nine Michigan counties, and its business training program has trained more than 15,000 women business owners.
In 1998, Michelle became a Regional Partner with the Women’s Business Enterprise National Council, enabling Great Lakes WBC to provide women’s business enterprise certification and procurement opportunities to its clients.
As a national and regional advocate for women business owners, Michelle has been honored with numerous awards, including the Athena Award, the Michigan Small Business Administration Women’s Business Advocate of the Year Award, and the National Association of Women’s Business Owners/Greater Detroit's Red Tape Buster Award. In addition, she was recognized as An Influential Woman in Businessand by Business Direct Weekly Magazine. In 2014, she was honored by the American Institute of Diversity and Commerce as a distinguished recipient of a Women's Business Enterprise Hall of Fame Award.
To learn more about Michelle and the work she does, you can reach her at the Great Lakes Women's Business Council website or info@greatlakeswbc.org.
Want to start a business but not sure how? Here are some places to start:
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Blog: What Will It Take To Be An Entrepreneur By Desire?
- Podcast: All In: How Women Entrepreneurs Can Think Bigger, Build Sustainable Businesses, and Change the World
- Our Ebook Primer for Entrepreneurs
Additional resources
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to think better, think smarter
I had really not paid attention to a category of professionals called “Thought Leaders.” But when Peter Winick reached out to me about growing my business as a “thought leader,” I was curious. Who were these folks and what did they do? I invited him onto our podcast to share his purpose and to educate us on the power and potential of thought leaders to help us, each of us, “think better.” Now I am a devoted member of Peter’s Thought Leaders Thinking Group and enjoy every minute of our weekly hour together with him and his business partner Bill Sherman, along with several dozen very thoughtful leaders. Would you also like to learn how to think better? Listen in!
Building businesses, growing revenue
As you listen to Peter tell you his story and what he does, you will want to know more about how thought leaders could help you. It doesn't matter if you are running a business or developing your own career or are a recognized authority in your field, Peter’s creative ideas will inspire you to think better and expand your horizons.
About Peter Winick
Founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage, Peter Winick helps individuals and organizations build and expand their revenue streams through designing and growing their thought leadership platforms. His clients hail from a wide range of backgrounds and specialties, including The New York Times bestselling business book authors, members of the Speakers’ Hall of Fame, recipients of the Thinkers50 award, CEOs of public and privately-held companies, and academics at such prestigious institutions as Yale, Wharton, Dartmouth and London School of Business.
Leveraging his proven experience and entrepreneurial mindset, Peter instructs CEOs, business owners and internal practice leaders how to:
- grow revenue, revitalize marketing and improve customer experience through applying the principles of thought leadership
- turn their ideas into a platform so they can launch content and products to create lasting impact, in the US and around the globe
- build or grow their business, increase their effectiveness in content creation and marketing, and extend their reach into new and existing clients
You can contact Peter at info@thoughtleadershipleverage.com, Twitter and his website.
Need to grow but not sure how? We recommend these two blogs and a podcast:
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Blog: Are You Ready to Find Your Blue Ocean® And Get Growing?
- Podcast: Kim Bohr—Assessing Your Company’s Organization To Sustain Growth In Changing Times
Additional resources
- Peter's website
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to embrace change rather than flee from it
I have had the pleasure of interviewing Michael (Mike) Tate once before on our podcast, in March of 2019. He is a charming man who has a purpose and a passion to help others find their way through often-challenging times. Today's podcast focuses on his new book, "Roll Up Your Sleeves," a collection of common-sense approaches to managing stress that are very helpful for leaders, in their careers and in their lives. Career coaching is Mike’s passion and calling, and he loves helping clients make their best next career move. Are you facing some big changes in your work, your life? I invite you to listen in and learn from Mike. He has great lessons for all of us.
Growth means change, which means transition
Whether you're moving to a new position, a better job or a new phase of your life, movement means change, and change is not easy. In the same way, guiding your team through change to a new, better place takes a vision, a plan and a process. As we tell our clients, if you need to change, have a crisis! For good or for ill, a big crisis is now here.
In our discussion today, Mike and I talk at length about the difference between change and transitions. Neither is easy but they aren’t the same. As we go through this period of chaos in the world today, we need to know what we are facing and how to navigate our way through it.
As culture change experts, we specialize in helping organizations that need or want to change. That's why so much of what Mike and I discuss today affirms what we at SAMC know so well: that change is hard, even painful, but these challenging times demand it.
In our discussion and in his new book "Roll Up Your Sleeves," Mike shares:
- His simple toolset for any leader facing a complex world of constant change
- A clear understanding of what change does to employees, friends and family
- An overall view of the real sense of the emotional impact of change
About Mike Tate
By way of consulting, coaching and writing, Michael Tate, MRE, CMF helps leaders navigate change and transition. President of On the Same Page Consulting, Inc., a leadership strategy and career planning firm, Mike is known for bringing his clients better results in less time. For more than 20 years, he has been retained by boards and leadership teams to clarify strategy and execute leadership succession, often called in to be a confidential advisor to leaders who are facing a significant change in their careers and their lives.
Mike is also the best-selling author of three books about living in a world of constant change: "Design a Life that Works," "The White Shirt" and his recent "Roll Up Your Sleeves."
You can contact Mike at mike@michaelalantate.com, LinkedIn or his website.
Want to learn how to love change instead of avoid it? Try these
- Blog: Now That You Have Your Crisis, What Do You Change?
- Blog: Managing Change in Fast-Changing Times
- Podcast: Warren Whitlock—How to Overcome the Pain of Change
Additional resources
- Mike's books
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to make sure donations have an impact
Sevetri Wilson, serial entrepreneur and founder of two highly successful companies, had a purpose and a passion. She wanted to make a difference, in the world and in people's lives. In our podcast today, she will tell you how she had to rethink her future and move in directions she had never anticipated, always helping others. Maybe your life has followed similar paths? I know you'll find Sevetri’s story and the work she is doing very inspirational, as I did. Listen and enjoy!
Dedicated to giving back and getting it done
Following college, Sevetri Wilson landed at Louisiana CASA, an organization that helps secure safe and permanent homes for abused and neglected children. As she was creating campaigns to lobby for support of children, people started seeing her as someone could help start or support other foundations or nonprofits. Sensing a bigger need for her talents, she expanded her scope to creating core communications for other organizations while helping them develop partnerships, give back to their communities, and deliver what their donors were expecting. Soon, Sevetri was a powerhouse in New Orleans, with more to come.
Did you know that nonprofits are one of the largest industries in the US?
In 2016, non-profit organizations employed 12.3 million people, approximately 1 in 10 jobs in the private sector. Today, the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic and the economic recession are causing serious challenges to these organizations at the very time that their services are most in demand. Moreover, funders are unclear about how to get their monies to the right organizations so their funds can have the most impact, today and tomorrow.
Making "collective impact" happen
To help fill the gap between funders' expectations and nonprofits' performance, as well as establish transparency and accountability, Sevetri formed Resilia in 2016, a New Orleans-based technology startup dedicated to: 1) simplifying the creation and maintenance of nonprofit organizations, 2) helping donors match their funding with the right nonprofits, and 3) making sure that funding actually goes to the programs the donors intend it to.
With Resilia, donors can now follow the progress of their financial support, ensuring that the nonprofits they're giving to have the resources they need to make real change happen, and to make that change stick. Called collective impact, it's a 360-degree approach to change, with everyone pushing for the same goal at the same time.
During this current time of dual crises — the pandemic and economic devastation — collective impact is precisely what Sevetri and her organization are making happen. While nationwide collective efforts are pushing recovery programs forward, Resilia enables the organizations carrying out those programs to measure their effectiveness and see the impact they're having on people's lives and communities. A true win-win, with impact far beyond today.
About Sevetri Wilson
As the first black woman in New Orleans to raise over $1MM in venture capital, serial entrepreneur Sevetri Wilson is the founder of two companies, Solid Ground Innovations and Resilia, bootstrapping the first to seven figures with zero capital, and raising over $3MM for the second. Sevetri's clients have included Fortune 100 and 500 companies, small businesses, government agencies, political figures and nonprofit organizations. She has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The New York Times and on CNN.
In 2010, Sevetri received the National Nobel Prize for Public Service and The Jefferson Award for advocacy and community outreach for the curriculum design she created. In the same year, she was featured in the Senate’s report to the White House on volunteerism in America. In 2013, she was chosen as Business Woman of the Year from the Louisiana Legislative Women’s Caucus, and in 2016, she was appointed to Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards’ Economic Development Transition team where she worked with 16 other business leaders from across the state to create recommendations for economic growth in the state of Louisiana.
As well as being a contributing writer for Entrepreneur and Inc. magazines, Sevetri is heavily involved in her community, serving on the board of directors for UNCF-NOLA, Downtown Development District, YWCA and LSU AP Tureaud Black Alumni. She is also an active member of the New Orleans Chamber of Commerce, New Orleans Black Chamber of Commerce and Alpha Kappa Alpha, Sorority, Inc. You can contact Sevetri On Facebook, Twitter and on her website.
Want to learn more about how to bring about positive change? Try these
- Blog: How Women in Leadership Roles Can Finally Change The Workplace
- Podcast: Kimberly Davis—Leading Change: Are You A Brave Leader?
- Podcast: Michelle Turman—Positive Changes Needed To Keep Your Business Growing
Additional resources
- Sevetri's website
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how one person is making a huge difference
You are going to be captivated by this podcast with Amanda Levinson. If you have ever asked, “Why is it so hard to help people in need?” you may find your answer in NeedsList, the tech company she co-founded that offers solutions for communities displaced by climate change, conflict and poverty worldwide. A social entrepreneur, Amanda spends her time trying to make life better for others. You'll hear how she was inspired by her grandmother, a woman who was also trying to change the world for the better. (I remember my own grandmother, who molded me and whom I unknowingly modeled myself after.) You'll also hear how Amanda converted her values, beliefs and culture into programs and products to achieve her purpose. Please enjoy.
By her own admission, Amanda is a woman on a mission
In our interview, Amanda talks about how she and her co-founder Natasha Freidus started NeedsList in 2015 after witnessing the chaos of the humanitarian response to the Syrian refugee crisis, and knew there had to be a better way. No single system was able to deal with the size and scope of this crisis — many were trying to help — and Amanda and Natasha didn’t want to duplicate what was already out there. But the needs were changing all the time, and there were no tools to communicate those needs in real time. People want to be helpful in a disaster, but without the proper overarching organization and technology, there is gigantic waste (like food and used clothing that arrived months too late to be useful.)
Out of the chaos and these two women's creativity came NeedsList, a real time directory that enables people in need to request support and others to send that support to the right place at the right time. Initially designed to allow individual donors to assist humanitarian organizations, NeedsList was very successful. However, it quickly became clear that the agencies that were meant to address needs during a crisis and coordinate the response were often disconnected and failed to achieve the desired goals. Time for a Blue Ocean Strategy?
A software solution to identify what was needed and when
Amanda and Natasha found themselves asking, What resources were available from large companies and organizations that could help those in need? Their solution was to create a new business model in which the directory software could be licensed to organizations which could use it to better allocate and match resources with needs. Very Blue Ocean Strategy, indeed!
NeedsList can now help organizations at all levels because it solves the enduring questions: What are the needs and where are they most urgent? Sounds so basic but it was hardly easy or simple to bring together. Today, NeedsList software has been deployed in over 20 countries worldwide, directing over $2 million in resources to local communities.
Communities are willing to cooperate and when they do, it's transformative
Now that they understand what and where the needs are, Amanda and her team are using AI to develop better systems with more predictive modeling so they can better plan for a disaster. For instance, areas with a lot of families will need different services than those with a concentration of seniors. Without a fast, easy way to identify these details, crisis response and recovery becomes a one-size-fits-all solution that all too often fits few. Now, people can get the help they need when and where they need it.
About Amanda Levinson
With 20 years' experience helping launch, scale and sustain positive social ventures, Amanda focuses on the uses and limits of technology to solve some of the world's biggest problems, intentionally designing solutions alongside the people who will directly benefit from them.
The results of her efforts? NeedsList has been the US winner of Visa's Visa Everywhere Initiative in the Social Impact Category, winner of North Carolina's Tech for Good award, and just recently, acknowledged in Fast Company's World Changing Ideas issue.
You can learn more about Amanda and NeedsList on its website, and you can contact her here.
Want to learn more about people making the world better? Start with these
- Blog: Want To Save the World? Women Entrepreneurs Are Already Doing It!
- Blog: Like Helen Keller, You Too Can Triumph Over Your Obstacles And See With A Fresh Lens
- Podcast: Ivy Gordon—Providing A Powerful Voice To The Sexually Abused
Additional resources
- NeedsList
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to navigate a new path for yourself!
Is this a time when you have been forced to strip out the busy parts of life and rethink what comes next? Is it time to stop checking the boxes? And have you recognized lately that you are really good at self-motivation, independence and autonomy, but you aren’t able to do any of that in your old job? You might ask yourself in this new world we now find ourselves in, what gets you out of bed in the morning? In this podcast, Kerri Schoonyoung will share with us how she and her company, Dept. 11, can help you find your "Life 2.0." Get ready to listen, learn and share!
This is opportunity time, not ostrich time
These current days might be particularly hard for you if your old job has been your only job. It has become who you are, your identity. Especially for older generations who have been in their careers for a long time, on one path, breaking that mold is particularly challenging. But it's ok to change. If you put some thought into what really motivates you, you can find a new path. You might not have a choice. That old world may not be coming back the way it was before—if at all.
Although transitions are hard, keep in mind that you're not alone. This time of great change is affecting everyone. People are realizing that all jobs in all industries have some inherent risk in them, regardless of the position, and what burdens you are willing to take on and sacrifices you are prepared to make.
Now is a time to learn an entirely new job: how to brand and market you
The whole process of transition is a process. As you will hear in our interview, Kerri urges us to see the possibilities as opportunities. Rather than focusing on what you cannot do, think about what you can do and what you really want to do. Perhaps her ideas will resonate with you today so you can begin to create the new you for tomorrow.
About Kerri Schoonyoung
With more than 20 years' experience as a digital marketer and business executive, Kerri has spent her career leading cross-functional teams in “storytelling,” from creating memorable marketing campaigns to providing campaign analytics. As the founder of Dept. 11, a digital marketing consultancy, Kerri is responsible for telling the Dept 11 story far and wide to prospective clients.
An energetic problemsolver, Kerri has earned a reputation for providing robust, game-changing marketing and technology teams to help clients of all sizes solve marketing challenges in effective and efficient ways. As her website states: “On a scale of 1 to 10, we always deliver 11.”
Perhaps Kerri has some ideas about how to take you to 11 as well. You can contact her at info@dept-11.com or her website.
Ready to see challenges as opportunities? Here are some places to start
- Blog: No Time To Be Afraid Of This Blurry Future
- Blog: How To Survive These Scary Times: Blue Ocean Strategy®
- Podcast: Doris Milton—How You Can Adapt, Fast, To Changing Times
Additional resources
- Kerri's website
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how attitudes toward police became transformed
Lisa Broderick recently told me how she had her “aha” moment. Sitting on a beach in Florida, she watched a police four-wheeler driving along the sand. On its side was a big sign: Peace Officer. She had long been disturbed by the amount of violence in our cities, in our society, and in fact, everywhere. Could the words “Peace Officer” change how we thought about the men and women in uniform who are here to help us stay peaceful? Was there a “low tech, high impact” way to create meaningful and lasting change? Yes, there was. Lisa created Police2Peace, a non-pofit that works with cities and police departments around the country to transform safety and security into a collaborative effort. Now more than ever, all of us need to hear her amazing story.
A peaceful community is a far safer community
The organization Lisa founded, Police2Peace, was started with the idea that the simple daily exchange and use of words create more peace and harmony for communities, and greater public trust for law enforcement. What Police2Peace tries to communicate is that the police are more than just law enforcement officers — they are peace officers. (And don't we need a lot more of this today.)
The research you'll hear Lisa describe in our interview was conducted in two areas of the country, California and South Carolina. In both places, social scientists measured community attitudes before and after the launch of Police2Peace. This "launch" merely consisted of putting new signs on the sides of police vehicles, saying “Peace Officer.” The result? First and foremost, that what research has proven many times over is really true: using different language changes how people “feel” and “think” about things. In this case, the new signs dramatically changed how those two communities saw their police...not as adversaries as in the past but as peaceful fellow citizens helping others stay peaceful.
Today, Police2Peace is rolling out to communities throughout the country, providing them with their own “Peace Officer”signs. The challenge, Lisa says, is for police departments, from the top down, to believe that actively displaying the signs will help them accomplish what they want most — to keep people safe and peaceful.
Who is Lisa Broderick?
From her early days at Apple over 30 years ago to helping launch some of the first e-commerce companies on the internet, Lisa Broderick has been at the forefront of utilizing communication tools to transform people and change social behavior. An experienced speaker and presenter, she has appeared on numerous television broadcasts including CNN and ABC News. Lisa earned her BA in Economics from Stanford University and her MBA in Global Finance and Management from Duke University.
You can contact Lisa at lbroderick@police2peace.com or police2peace.com.
Want to change the world? Here are some who are doing it
- Blog: How Brilliant Fearless Women Are Rewriting The Script In Hollywood
- Podcast: Theresa Carrington—Transforming Impoverished Artisans Into Entrepreneurs
- Podcast: Hamilton Perkins—An Inspiring Entrepreneurial Success Story
Additional resources
- Police2Peace
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to market and grow your own online course!
I had the pleasure recently of interviewing Billy Bross, a business coach and consultant who specializes in marketing online courses. Billy helps people create and market online courses so they can share their great ideas with others — and earn a living doing it. A true entrepreneur, he left a promising career in the renewable energy industry to grow an online academy for home beer brewers. Other course creators started asking Billy for help, and he has now sold online courses in over 50 different niches, generating millions of dollars in revenue for his clients. During our podcast you will learn how he did it and how you might be able to as well. Enjoy.
Helping course creators rise above the noise
Online courses are experiencing exponential growth right now, with experts projecting it will be a $325 billion industry by the year 2025. Millions of people across the globe will be taking online courses over the coming years, meaning that smart entrepreneurs who teach online stand to benefit tremendously from this boom in demand.
But, as Billy reminds us, you may have the best online course in your market, but that doesn't matter if nobody finds out about it. So how do you get the word out when there is so much competition? His answer: craft a marketing campaign which brings in high-quality, paying students, then deliver amazing learning experiences so they rave about it and tell their friends. The students get great results and the business grows so it can serve more people. As entrepreneurs ourselves who work with and coach aspiring entrepreneurs, this approach makes perfect sense.
We discuss 4 strategies to market your online course and increase sales
- Find out what innovative course creators are doing to deliver incredible student experiences
- The keys to a successful product launch
- An email marketing strategy to boost engagement and sales
- Why the future is bright for online education companies
You can contact Billy at billy@billybross.com or his website.
Need a little help launching your big idea? Perhaps start with these
- Blog: Supporting Women Entrepreneurs Through The Simon Initiative for Entrepreneurship
- Blog: A Powerful Checklist For Entrepreneurial Success
- Podcast: Andy Simon—Confessions of a Successful Entrepreneur
- Our EBook Primer for Entrepreneurs
Additional resources
- Billy's website
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to write a book and get it on Amazon!
As an award-winning author and now having finished my second book, I know it is a tough row to hoe when you think you have something to share and want to write a book about it. You yourself might be wondering, but how do you write a book? In today’s podcast, Suzanne Doyle-Ingram talks about her method for helping people, just like you and me, write, publish, and best of all, use their book to grow their business. If you've got an idea and want to share it, don't miss this!
Helping people write books that change the world
A highly sought-after coach for business professionals, Suzanne has personally developed a terrific method for how to write and publish a book, then how to successfully leverage it to increase your visibility. The idea of a book, she explains, is to help people do something with it. Book sales are challenging, but credentialing yourself with a published book can dramatically help you grow your brand and your business.
As CEO of Prominence Publishing, Suzanne works with people from all walks of life to help them write a book and become published authors (currently, 700 clients and counting). Through her online courses and private and group coaching, Suzanne has seen people's lives changed as a direct result of their books. Do you want to write a book but have no idea where to start, or what to write about? Have you already written a book but you're stuck trying to figure out how to get it on Amazon? Is your book already on Amazon but you need help with visibility, podcasts, media and creating an online course? Suzanne can help you!
You can contact Suzanne at suzanne@prominencepublishing.com, Facebook or her website.
Some of the things we discuss in today's podcast
- How to quickly and easily write a client-attracting book
- 15 ways to use your book as a marketing tool
- Why book sales don’t matter
Have a big idea and want to share it? Check out this advice on how to get started
- Blog: What I Learned Publishing My First Book: "On the Brink"
- Blog: Is A Really Big Idea In Plain Sight? Ask Trey Williams!
- Podcast: Matt Artz—How An Anthropologist Can Open Your Mind To Brilliant New Ideas
Additional resources
- Suzanne's website
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to realign your organization for amazing growth!
We were delighted recently to have another great interview about leadership and organizational development, this time with Kim Bohr. She was terrific. An author, excellent keynote speaker, executive advisor and CEO of The Innovare Group, Kim talked with us about how she works with companies and their leaders to assess, align and accelerate their strategic priorities. Notably, she helps them see that each of their decisions has a profound impact on their talent, company culture, and ultimately, their business’s growth. Want to grow? Listen in as Kim teaches us how!
Making businesses better from the inside out
A life-long learner, cross-functional executive, keynote speaker, author and calculated risk-taker, Kim Bohr is passionate about helping companies and their leaders overcome the strategic hurdles that are holding them back. After seeing a disturbing pattern of disconnects and misaligned efforts that cost companies time, talent and the ability to scale efficiently, she founded The Innovare Group, whose specialty is diagnosing and repairing organizational and leadership disconnects.
Kim's diverse experiences — successes as well as failures — were acquired serving on boards and as a highly strategic employee for global, corporate, VC-funded, non-profit and family-owned businesses. Utilizing that first-hand knowledge, she now advises clients on how to build, grow and turn their organizations around at varying stages of the business life cycle. At the heart of Kim's approach is the firm belief that aligning strategy with the development of leadership behaviors, emotional intelligence and critical thinking is the smartest approach to creating a sustainable business culture. As culture change experts, we heartily agree.
Kim’s book, "Successes, Failures & Lessons Learned: A Career Journal," helps busy professionals gain confidence, recognition and career advancement by capturing important insights and accomplishments on a weekly basis before their impact fades away.
Ready to change your culture for growth? Start with these blogs and podcast
- Blog: How Do You Grow A Business In A Fast-Changing Market?
- Blog: Are You Ready to Find Your Blue Ocean® And Get Growing?
- Podcast: Michelle Turman—Positive Changes Needed To Keep Your Business Growing
Additional resources
- Kim's book: "Successes, Failures & Lessons Learned: A Career Journal"
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to be the great leader the future needs!
We have been developing a Leadership Academy for a healthcare system and working with their team to develop great leaders. This is particularly important during times of great stress, like this pandemic that is upon us. But it is equally important during the more normal yet still uncertain times that were affecting the world before the COVID-19 mess. The need for effective leadership goes way beyond healthcare. It is a recurring theme virtually everywhere. But what type of leaders are needed for the Fourth Industrial Revolution, with all the changes to our workplace and workers? Add the pandemic to the mix and leadership is facing its own crisis. How can we soften the great transformation and enable leaders of today to refocus for tomorrow? Listen in.
What makes a great leader?
In this podcast, Dave McKeown and I talk about why our current leadership models are broken, why it's imperative that we fix them and how to take the first steps to becoming a Self-Evolved Leader, the subject of his book. There is no shortage of literature about leadership, the different styles that fit different cultures, and the approach that is needed to build followers. But Dave teaches us how to actually make it happen: how to master the key components of becoming a great leader, build a team vision, and create an implementation plan to develop needed disciplines.
In our interview, we also discuss how to take this Self-Evolved Leader concept and spread the ideas across a team, department or entire organization, in part by building a shared vocabulary and language and in larger part by showing the way, not telling people how. It is a very timely conversation that you will enjoy.
Some of the topics Dave and I discuss:
- What is Self-Evolved Leadership?
- What is the problem with our current leadership models?
- What is the cycle of mediocrity?
- What is heroic leadership and why is it a problem?
- What is the key mindset of the Self-Evolved Leader?
- What are the key components of becoming a Self-Evolved Leader?
More about Dave McKeown
Dave helps individuals, teams and organizations achieve excellence by doing ordinary things extraordinarily well. As Founder and CEO of Outfield Leadership and author of "The Self-Evolved Leader: Elevate Your Focus and Develop Your People in a World That Refuses to Slow Down," Dave specializes in connecting individual and team performance to improved business results with a particular focus on fast-growing, complex organizations.
Dave started his career as a consultant at Accenture, quickly rising to COO. He then became President of Predictable Success, a boutique consultancy focused on helping businesses achieve scalability, while also leading Inc. Consulting, a joint venture with Inc. Media. He has worked with leaders at Spectrum Health, Renewal by Andersen, Akamai, NYSE and many smaller, fast-growing organizations, and has shared his leadership strategies at numerous conferences.
Currently, Dave speaks, coaches and trains individuals and organizations how to move from execution to excellence by building a culture of real, authentic, but ultimately results-driven leadership. He also hosts the podcast, "Lead Like you Give a Damn," and writes a weekly column for Inc.Com.
You can contact Dave at info@selfevolvedleader.com, LinkedIn, Twitter or his website.
Want to be a better leader? Start here:
- Blog: How a Bold, Curious Leader Turned Laclede Chain Around
- Blog: 6 Management Traits That Successful Leaders Share
- Podcast: Kimberly Davis—Leading Change: Are You A Brave Leader?
Additional resources
- Dave's book: "The Self-Evolved Leader"
- Dave's website
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how you can change and find your dream career!
Doris Milton and I do very similar things, albeit in different ways. We love to help people change so they can thrive in changing times. Today's podcast focuses on how Doris does this for healthcare professionals who have begun to burn out at their jobs. We talk about how to help people who are searching for other paths in their lives, paths that better fit their purpose and passions. With the coronavirus now all around the world, I have a hunch that this podcast is going to speak to far too many healthcare professionals. While we hope they all emerge from the pandemic unscathed, we know that the rigors of their profession take its toll on them. Do listen.
Having worked in healthcare myself for many years as a hospital executive, and with over one third of our clients in healthcare, we watch doctors, nurses and adminstrators try to navigate the uncertain waters that are characteristic of their industry. The paperwork is overwhelming. The regulations, while well-intended, often add additional work and go-arounds, and the volume of daily patients, even before the pandemic, far exceeded the available staff and facilities. If you are in healthcare, or know someone who is, listen to Doris’s approach to helping you pause, take stock, and rethink your life.
Doris's forte is helping people change
Doris had a dream career in healthcare and wanted that for others. She now works with people on a change process to find their own dream careers. They often resist at first, thinking change is too hard, or that they don’t have time to learn how to change. After working with Doris, they actually find that changing their lives for the better doesn’t take as much time to plan and implement as they think.
Doris's clients typically arrive at her door through circuitous routes. Some have stalled in their careers and don’t know where to go next. Others have been “reorganized” and are not sure they like what the new organization is going to offer them. Many are just burned out, emotionally drained and no longer able to enjoy their daily lives. All of them need a boost and someone to help them.
What many don’t realize is that once they have a detailed plan for their dream career, they can start to move forward. They can then use their time and energy more wisely, stop spinning their wheels, and work toward a happier life.
Her change process
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The first step is for someone to actually have a career goal…what is their dream career? What would they love to be doing? If there were no limitations, what would their dream job look like?
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Next, they need to create a detailed career plan, focusing on the qualifications they will need to achieve the professional position they want in 3-5 years.
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Finally, they must identify what they are doing today to undermine or sabotage their career growth. Many people do not realize that despite acquiring more education, certifications, experience and published articles, they often do things that reflect poorly on themselves as people. From inappropriate postings on social media to openly criticizing others, they can be a powerful obstacle to their own career advancement. In such cases, Doris coaches people on how to polish their performance and project a positive, professional image.
Doris Milton, PhD, RN
The founder of Healthcare Career Growth, Doris Milton has had a 50-year career in nursing and healthcare. Her extensive expertise includes staff nurse, Director of Research and Education for two healthcare systems and a primary care center, dean and assistant dean, author of several books and book chapters, editor and reviewer for several professional journals, mentor and coach to numerous healthcare professionals, professional speaker and workshop facilitator.
Doris gets great satisfaction from helping others design a personalized plan so they can focus on achieving their career goals, and has found that having such a plan helps leaders fast track their success.
You can contact Doris at Doris@HealthcareCareerGrowth.com, her website, Twitter or LinkedIn.
Free offer
Doris is offering listeners to our podcast a free list of 7 Ways Healthcare Professionals Sabotage Their Career Success, and strategies to use instead. Contact her to learn more.
For more on how to change to achieve career success:
- Blog: Can People And Businesses Really, Truly Change? Yes! Here's How
- Blog: Hate Change? Anthropology Can Make You and Your People Love It!
- Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It's Necessary!
Additional resources
- Doris's website
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Learn how to embrace your flaws to achieve success
This was an unexpectedly powerful interview. David Rendall has literally turned lemons into lemonade. As he shares with us, growing up he had a hard time fitting into the norms which his teachers and parents expected of him. He moved around too much, talked too much, and found himself always a little on the outside of what others thought was “normal.” Then he had an epiphany. He realized that what he had was a gift for turningd the things that others did not want him to do into things they loved watching him do. He took his weaknesses and turned them into strengths. In this podcast, he teaches us how to do the same. Incredible lessons here! Listen in.
Unleash your inner freak... and discover your unique potential
Try it. David tells us to think of the things that make us strange―the weaknesses that we won’t admit during a job interview or performance evaluation. Perhaps, those lemons are not sour at all. Your successes, your strengths, may be the very things that make you stand out from the crowd.
Our parents, teachers, bosses and managers have told us that if we want to succeed, we should find and fix our weaknesses. However, this is the wrong approach, David says, because each weakness is also a strength. Listen in to our conversation to find out how to create outrageous personal and professional success by amplifying your flaws instead of denying them.
Are you embracing your inner freak, or are you hiding it in order to conform and maintain the status quo?
David Rendall believes that highlighting your weaknesses is crucial for your success. During the last 15 years, he has spoken on this topic to audiences all over the world, including the US Air Force, the Australian Government, and numerous Fortune 50 companies such as Microsoft, AT&T, United Health Group, Fannie Mae and State Farm Insurance. Prior to becoming a highly sought-after speaker, David was a leadership professor and stand-up comedian. He also managed several nonprofit enterprises which provided employment for people with disabilities.
David has a Doctor of Management degree in organizational leadership, as well as a graduate degree in psychology. In between presentations, David competes in ultramarathons and Ironman triathlons. He is also the author of four books:
- "The Freak Factor"
- "The Freak Factor for Kids"
- "The Four Factors of Effective Leadership"
- "Pink Goldfish"
You can contact David via his website or at dave@drendall.com
For more on unconventional paths to business success:
- Podcast: Mikki Williams—Be Outrageous, It's The Only Place That Isn't Crowded™
- Blog: Crises Are The Best Times To “Reverse Everything” And Find A Better Way Forward?
- Blog: Like Helen Keller, You Too Can Triumph Over Your Obstacles And See With A Fresh Lens
Additional resources
- David's website
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website
Hear how to get the right job that's just right for you
Today I bring you Donna Cornell to talk with us about how to find a job during the economic disruption of the COVID-19 pandemic. Donna has a new book coming out called "Job Searching in Pandemic Times," and whether or not you are looking for a job right now and worrying about what awaits you in the future, you will love her experience, insights and stories. These days, we have no idea how the job market is going to rebound from this economic recession, so I urge you to use the information Donna shares in this podcast to get you ready for tomorrow. It will be here before you know it. As futurists and culture change experts, we wholeheartedly agree. Listen in.
Use this time to carefully evaluate who you are, what you do well, and what you want to do in the future
Then figure out ways to find the right job at the right salary point for tomorrow. Donna is living proof that this can be done.
When she was only in her 20s, Donna was a single parent with three young children and on the brink of financial and emotional disaster. But with remarkable courage and strength, she turned her life around and in 1978, founded her first business: Career Directions, a small employment agency that eventually grew to eight offices in four states. Though she had little experience in the business world, Donna quickly showed an unerring instinct for “what makes business work.” She now has a second career as a motivational speaker, mentor and author.
About Donna Cornell
A highly successful entrepreneur, Donna Cornell is also a driving force within the professional search, career counseling and life skills industries. After founding her first business, Career Directions, she repeated her entrepreneurial acumen and created additional companies which she then successfully sold. Now as a career counselor, Donna guides all types of people to secure the job of their dreams by her unique interviewing and job search techniques and strategies. Her forte is finding the right fit for the right person in the right company.
Donna's exceptional leadership talents put her in high demand chairing numerous not-for-profit organizations. Known as a successful leader of change, she often serves as a consultant in the areas of succession planning, business strategies and staff development.
Donna is also a winner of multiple awards and citations, having been recognized by 2000 Notable American Women, World Who's Who of Women, Business Leader of the Year, the U.S. Congress, the New York State Senate and many other organizations. She has appeared on radio and television showsand has been a guest columnist in The New York Times, The San Francisco Times and Vault.com.
You can contact Donna via her website or at donna@donnacornell.com
Want more tools for successfully adapting to what's coming in the future?
- Podcast: Diana Wu David—Future Proof You and Your Work
- Blog: What Is Futurism And Do You Need It?
- Blog: Blink And The Future Is Here. Are You Ready?
Additional resources
- Donna's website
- My award-winning book: "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights"
- Simon Associates Management Consultants website